Nimrod for C programmers - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Araq/Nimrod/wiki/Nimrod-for-C-programmers

<comment><USER2> I strongly disagree with the rationale for not supporting unsigned integer types by default. In fact, I think unsigned should be the default, and the advice on the Escher Technologies blog is harmful.

Other than that, Nimrod has been a pleasure to use. If you need a metaprogramming language to generate C, use Nimrod.

<comment><USER3> I'll assert that a majority of C programmers do not understand unsigned types and misuse them.

It's quite common to end up needing to use both signed and unsigned types in the same expression and to end up invoking undefined behaviour trying to protect yourself. C overflow semantics (i.e. undefined) in particular.

Signed types should be the default, and overflow should be defined as wrapping two's complement. There's very good reasons why C# and Java chose these defaults.

The places where unsigned numbers are justified are incredibly rare: bitwise operations, and working with >2GB heap sizes on 32-bit machines. That's about it. In almost every other circumstance, using a signed type (the next size up if the range is inadequate) is better.

Especially pernicious is using something like size_t for things like container entry counts. It's very common to add and subtract with container counts, and very easy to end up inadvertently wrapping or mixing with signed types in common container algorithms.

PS: my experience was deeply coloured while working on the Delphi RTL, making it overflow safe. It was not trivial.

PPS: it was revealing that the comments on the article arguing in favour of unsigned types repeatedly made programming errors and invoked undefined behaviour. That's because unsigned types are misunderstood and misused.

<comment><USER4> Third case, dealing with raw data from networks, from devices, from flash memory etc. where you actually need to manipulate every bit accurately.

Fourth case - situations in which you have a scalar quantity, and do not care about positive or negative.

Overflow is a separate issue and you must either make sure you either know the range of the data and pick an appropriately sized storage type, or explicitly check for overflows.

<comment><USER5> > Fourth case - situations in which you have a scalar quantity, and do not > care about positive or negative.

This is actually where you have to be really careful, because there can be corner cases surrounding zero. E.g.:

      for (i=len-1; i>=0; i--) { ... }

Yes, either ints or unsigned numbers can overflow, but underflowing a natural number is much more common.

Don't take my word for it, ask Bjarne Stroustrup or Chandler Carruth: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18795453/why-prefer- signe...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/18795453/why-prefer-signed-over- unsigned-in-c)

<comment><USER6> I think this demonstrates a problem with C-style for loops (as opposed to iterators) more than unsigned integers.

<comment><USER5> The problem lies with len-1 underflowing, not the loop that uses the result. For another example, to test congruence of x and y modulo m, you check if (x-y) % m == 0. This also blows up for unsigned integers if y > x unless m is a power of 2.

Even iteration is not always over containers or some other structure in a way where the boundaries can be inferred and do not have to be computed, and not always in an order that is implemented by an iterator (for example, some in- place sorting algorithms).

<comment><USER7> It's a problem with C for loops. There is really no good way to write a counting down loop using a for loop. The fundamental problem is that a for loop is: test a condition, run a loop body, then run a step function. This is suited to counting up loops but when counting down what you want is: test a condition, run a step function, then run a loop body. If you use while loops instead of for loops, you will see the two loops are symmetrical and there is no underflow for unsigned types. See [http://ideone.com/1ABiCw](http://ideone.com/1ABiCw)

<comment><USER5> I don't like C for loops, either, but this can happen with other types of for loops, either. E.g. in Pascal:

      for i := 0 to len-1 do begin ... end

This is counting up, not counting down, and len-1 is still going to be either 2^k-1 or result in an error when you're using unsigned integers.

While loops also don't fix it (not to mention that they have their own problem, such as forgetting or misplacing the iteration step). The primary issue is that len-1 is underflowing. Yes, you can avoid calculating len-1, but by that token, no error is ever a problem, because they can all be avoided with enough diligence and foresight. In that universe, Heartbleed never happened and the Ariane 5 never blew up. It is, however, not the world we live in.

<comment><USER7> That's a representation problem. C/C++ use half open ranges and have no problems with unsigned integers.

This is also a non-issue in C++ as you have iterators and counting loops are easy to abstract away using counting iterators or <algorithm> style functions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Every time i look at this language feature, it seems like a dream come true. Yet, i stopped believing in santa when i was 4 so could anyone here points at its ugly parts ?

<comment><USER9> This is the first time I've heard of Nimrod and being an amateur C user these are the parts I don't like:

\- No curly braces around anything.

\- Whitespace seems to be important, just like python.

\- Some nonsense about unsigned integers.

The best thing I saw was that it has C's explicit-size integers. The one thing I wish every C program would use rather than having configure guess which basic type it should use.

<comment><USER10> > \- No curly braces around anything.

Do you find curly braces to have some aesthetic? That you like to see it in code for its own sake?

<comment><USER11> Yesterday I reported a bug which had already been fixed several weeks ago but reappeared in a new version.

After looking through the original patch and the current version, I found that the bug was caused by significant indentation. The maintainer had decided to add comments and accidentally indented the code one more level, making it part of an if branch. Braces would have prevented this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I recommend to those who tried only the 0.9.2 version to check the new 0.9.4 as there has been a lot of improvements (Release note: [http://nimrod- lang.org/news.html#Z2014-04-21-version-0-9-4-r...](http://nimrod- lang.org/news.html#Z2014-04-21-version-0-9-4-released)).

<comment><USER13> wow, async/await, lambdas.. really nice! lovely showcase for the macro system, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I saw that you can even generate C++ code from nimrod and that you can automatically generate c wrapper with c2nim, but how does it play with C++? Can you easily use C++ libraries in Nimrod or do you have to write a C interface?

<comment><USER15> C wrappers are still generally better supported, or at least that's what I assume because that's what most people still use. I haven't personally tried wrapping any C++ code yet. c2nim does support C++ now so in theory it should be just as easy as wrapping C.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> How does Nimrod compare to Rust, in terms of goals?

<comment><USER17> Rust focuses _very_ much on low/no-overhead memory safety (especially memory safety without a GC), while Nimrod seems to be more focused at more convenient low-level programming, but without quite such a strong push for memory safety and reliable very high performance (e.g. GC is compulsory for safety).

That's not to say that Rust isn't convenient, but the quest for strong memory safety & performance guarantees doesn't come for free: satisfying the borrow checker can get a little tricky at times.

An example of this: Rust's type system is designed to allow things like building a safe shared memory abstraction[1], that is, a shared memory type that enforces non-thread-safe data can't be shared without being inside a mutex. My reading of the Nimrod FAQ[2] ("An unsafe shared memory heap is also provided") implies this isn't (as easily) possible in Nimrod.

(Disclaimer: I know a lot of Rust, but very little Nimrod.)

[1]: [http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/sync/struct.Arc.html](http://static.rust- lang.org/doc/master/sync/struct.Arc.html)

[2]: [http://nimrod-lang.org/question.html](http://nimrod- lang.org/question.html)

<comment><USER6> > My reading of the Nimrod FAQ[2] ("An unsafe shared memory heap is also > provided") implies this isn't (as easily) possible in Nimrod.

Nimrod's GC is not thread safe, so you have to use raw unsafe allocation and deallocation in order to share objects between threads (last I looked anyway). This is in contrast to Rust, for which memory safety is important even in multithreaded scenarios.

<comment><USER5> Right now, Nimrod uses thread-local heaps (similar to what Erlang does). Threads can communicate via channels, and you can access global variables or the shared heap unsafely if that is needed for performance.

My understanding (from talking to Nimrod's author) is that the concurrency model is still being finalized, but that safe shared memory is going to be part of it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> If you're interested in Nimrod's performance, it's really good: [http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/26459/how- high-c...](http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/26459/how-high-can-you- go-a-codingalgorithms-challenge/26528)

<comment><USER5> As the person who wrote that: the speedup here is primarily due to using a smarter algorithm, though Nimrod helped in keeping the constant factor low.

I expect that one could get the same performance in C, though unrolling the top levels of the recursive search would be a bit more cumbersome and having efficient bound checks for arrays in Nimrod helped in debugging some variants of the algorithm.

In short, the benefits of Nimrod here were expressiveness and safety rather than raw performance (though having performance of optimized code that is competitive with C hardly hurts, either).

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> >In other words, C gives you a combined hammer and gun, while Nimrod gives you a separate gun and hammer.

That made my day

</comment><comment><USER20> I love working with Nimrod. What it lacks is some documentation. For example, if you want to use PostgreSQL with it, the only documentation you can find is this: [http://nimrod-lang.org/postgres.html](http://nimrod- lang.org/postgres.html)

<comment><USER15> There is also [http://nimrod-lang.org/db_postgres.html](http://nimrod- lang.org/db_postgres.html). But I agree that documentation is an area we need to improve on!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Why would I use Nimrod and not C++? C++ matured quite a bit over the last 20 years and I'm not sure what advantages Nimrod has over it. The tutorial mentions C++ a lot of times but does not mention any advantage for Nimrod.

<comment><USER22> I only know a little bit about Nimrod. My understanding of it is limited.

That being said, I believe a big draw is its metaprogramming abilities. In Nimrod, metaprogramming is done using Nimrod. In C++ you have the very limited, backwards compatible to C, C++ preprocessor and template metaprogramming. C++ is progressing slowly towards metaprogramming in C++ with constexpr. constexpr support is much stronger in C++14.

D is similar. In D, the metaprogramming language is (I believe) D itself, or at least very similar to it. D also has strong support for compile time function execution.

Nimrod also does a lot more to guarantee safety. C++ can only do so much, due to its (mostly) backwards compatibility to C.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> It's quite annoying that the "cheat sheet" table at the bottom is so narrow that one must scroll it back-and-forth to see all three columns.

<comment><USER15> That seems to be the result of Github's recent wiki redesign ([https://github.com/blog/1828-wikis-now-with-more- love](https://github.com/blog/1828-wikis-now-with-more-love))

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I read the title too quickly and I thought it said

C for nimrod programmers</comment>


React Native might become the first multi-platform framework that actually works - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@skvarekm/whyreact-native-might-become-the-first-multi-platform-framework-that-actually-works-ae819bf32721 <comment><USER2> Talk to a Facebook engineer and you find out that they are not that excited about it. Not really using it.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there a native Windows port of RN yet? I noticed that an OS X one is on Github now.</comment>


Wants anybody buy an aircraft carrier? - <AUTHOR> http://www.edisposals.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Disposals-Public-Site/en_US/-/GBP/ViewProductDetail-Start;pgid=MieqQ4wkQg8000ArvQ_8K1sp0000I74u3Rk7;sid=R_6Ie6R0n_6YbeiN36-YaQy0kjNL5XG5hGA=?ProductUUID=38jAqBIQwVwAAAEsaApaBWLN&CatalogCategoryID=VaLAqBELPagAAAED8GeasfoP&JumpTo=OfferList

<comment><USER2> Call the seasteaders. It's right up their alley I think.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have visions of _Snow Crash_ running through my head.

</comment><comment><USER4> Wonder what the minimum bid is on this thing, it would be a hell of a super- yacht.

<comment><USER5> I would think that it would make a terrible super-yacht. The interior would have to be completely redone, and I think the average fuel consumption for a non-nuclear powered aircraft carrier is ~ 6 inches/gallon.

The only appeal of an aircraft carrier from a usability perspective is it's intended purpose of landing aircraft (otherwise you'd be much better off with a cruiser); so unless you are planning on landing aircraft (and have both the necessary crew and an aircraft capable of a carrier landing), it's sort of silly.

<comment><USER6> Also, the only aircraft this thing can actually handle are Harriers and helicopters. And nobody will sell you a Harrier. So all you've got is a yacht with an oversized helipad, which is no better than any other billionaire.

<comment><USER7> Was talking to my brother about this earlier today, and I was saying the exact same thing.

As a purchase goes, it is totally pointless. Even as a golf course ... it would be a very boring course.

Given the size of the thing, the crew you would need for it, that it is at best a glorified helipad, and one that is nearly 40 years old,

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> My Uncle used to serve on the Invincible, heard lots of incredible stories. Can't imagine they'd sell this to just anyone with a load of cash though?

</comment><comment><USER9> Its the kind of thing you buy just so you can say you have one. Probably one of the more unique chat up lines.

</comment><comment><USER10> I love that you can add it to your shopping cart

</comment><comment><USER11> I'm thinking pirate radio...with its own CAP.

</comment><comment><USER12> Added to wishlist.</comment>


Swing-Up of an Inverted Pendulum on a Cart - <AUTHOR> https://gereshes.com/2019/08/19/swing-up-of-an-inverted-pendulum-on-a-cart/ <comment><USER2> I don't like these short posts that don't come to a conclusion. It smells like content marketing.</comment>


Japan Is Obsessed with Kentucky Fried Chicken on Christmas (2012) - <AUTHOR> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/why-japan-is-obsessed-with-kentucky-fried-chicken-on-christmas-1-161666960/?no-ist <comment><USER2> Japan is the master of Capitalism driven consumerization of Western holidays. Christmas is one (Cake + KFC), Valentines day (chocolate) is another. They invented "White Day" for 3/14 for men who receive Valentines day chocolates to give gifts to women in return (often quoted as being 3x the price of the chocolate received).

In recent times, they've succeeded in making Halloween a commercial "get out and buy costumes and party" bonanza (well I guess this is similar to what we have in the states).

Now, if only they could harness some of this prowess into international marketing... ;)

<comment><USER3> Yet I don't think Japan has "black friday" the ultimate consumerism "holiday".

The UK got it first and people are already rejecting it apparently.

<comment><USER2> They now have Cyber Monday on Amazon though!

Also there is a New Years Sale tradition that is very similar to Black Friday with the mad rushes for bargain items, fights for items (often women for clothing), "good luck bags" which is basically a lottery for trying to get lucky with the jackpot items, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I love how traditions get skewed as they pass through multi-national/-cultural lenses. I live in China, and any time I go into a 7-11 around this time of year they shout at me about "Christmas cakes". After a few half-hearted explanations on my part about how Christmas doesn't really involve cake (explaining pudding is just way beyond the pale), I finally figured out that the Chinese 7-11s are all run by a Japanese company (which explains why they're efficient and not depressing), and that the Japanese have decided that "Christmas cake" is a thing. And so, the Chinese have followed suit. You have to hand it to the Japanese -- they may transform your traditions into something unrecognizable, but they do it so thoroughly that you often start to suspect your own memory...

<comment><USER5> Don't you have Xmas cake in the US?

Do you have wedding cake? I.e. a heavy fruit cake which has been soaked in port/sherry/rum/whisky and then decorated with marzipan and royal icing?

Xmas cake is the same thing.

It's part of the English (i.e. British) tradition, and probably spread to the colonies and trading partners. Which would explain it being known in China.

We also have Xmas Pudding, which is a similar fruity better but it's steamed and served with the thickest cream you can find (which in my youth was clotted cream).

<comment><USER6> Americans would think of something completely different if you mentioned "wedding cake". A stereotypical one would be:

[http://uwebus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/small- wedding-c...](http://uwebus.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/small-wedding- cakes-of-flawless-wedding-cakes-wedding-cakes-mesmerizing-cupcakes-wedding- ideas-plus-small.jpg)

<comment><USER7> Yes, that is right. Xmas cake is the fruit cake often found inside the wedding cake.

<comment><USER8> U.S. wedding cakes do not have fruitcake inside them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> And Sweden is with Donald Duck.

[http://www.npr.org/2014/12/24/372940340/how-donald-duck- help...](http://www.npr.org/2014/12/24/372940340/how-donald-duck-helps-swedes- celebrate-christmas)

<comment><USER10> The Swedes have a Christmas sausage , called Korv ( potatoe sausage ). .really good ! I had an Italian butcher make it for me on Christmas . . he asked me if he could copy the recipe . . I obliged , later in the summer I went in and he was selling ' Korv ' , I told him the Swedes usually only eat ' Korv ' at Christmas , he said they ( customer's ) love it !

<comment><USER11> You do know that "korv" is simply the Swedish word for "sausage" right?

What you had was probably "Potatiskorv" or "Potato Sausage": [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potatiskorv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potatiskorv)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I work for a Japanese tech company, and I can't tell you how often I've been fed KFC or Christmas cake at the year-end gathering of my various social circles. The Western media exaggerates almost all of its news about Japan, but this is a case where the obsession is real.

</comment><comment><USER13> Aren't all holiday traditions rather arbitrary? I live in Japan and considered some things odd at first, but usually they are just different but equally valid ways to do things.

This short TED talk from Derek Sivers illustrates it nicely [https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_weird_or_just_differe...](https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_weird_or_just_different?language=en)

</comment><comment><USER14> Search YouTube with keywords like "KFC クリスマス" and you'll see a whole bunch of Japanese KFC commercials for Christmas.

</comment><comment><USER15> One of the points that stuck out to me the most was the exchange rate and how it's changed:

> Today the christmas chicken dinner (which now boasts cake and champagne) > goes for about 3,336 yen ($40).

Nowadays, 3336 JPY is only around $28 USD. Quite a change for three short years. We feel it here, too.</comment>


Good ideas: the discipline of writing things down - <AUTHOR> http://www.smarta.com/blog/2010/7/the-discipline-of-writing-things-down

<comment><USER2> I just use google docs to record thoughts and ideas.</comment>


Ask HN: Has anyone here gone through a development bootcamp? - <AUTHOR>

Hi All,
I'm interested in taking a Development Bootcamp, but just wanted to get an idea about their success. Has anyone here been through one? If so, how successful was it in landing a job afterwards? Obviously the amount of time to land a job varies, but if anyone has gone through one I'd like to hear about it.
Thanks! <comment><USER2> I attended Bitmaker Labs' 7th Web Development Intensive cohort (June 2014–August 2014) in Toronto.

I walked in knowing AngularJS and a basic level of Ruby/Rails (self-taught for both), whereas most of my classmates had either gone through the prework (very basic HTML, CSS, JS and Ruby) or were computer science grads (worked with Java, maybe C). I was ahead of the curb going in.

And that was the way things stayed. I stayed ahead because although the coursework was not designed for my level of knowledge, it helped a lot with filling in the holes of my knowledge. Also, the exposure and immersion and the side projects I did by myself led to many more 'a-ha' moments.

As for the instructors, all of them were super helpful, but they might not be very approachable early-on (the first 2 weeks or so). Depending on the kind of student you are, you'll either spend the majority of your time with the instructor learning or troubleshooting.

I echo @notjustanymike's thoughts: Bootcamp learning is only skin deep. If you go in with a lot of background knowledge you'll deepen your knowledge. If you wait a couple of months afterwards you'll deepen your knowledge. Really try to get a sense of how things work.

During the bootcamp I landed a fun gig at a local startup. Part time, not that good of a pay ($15/hour). I wasn't in the market for a job, but had I been I definitely could have gotten into the $60-$75k in Toronto.

Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know.

</comment><comment><USER3> I took General Assembly's web dev immersive course last March. Truth be told, I had a terrible instructor -- he could code, but he couldn't teach very well. One caveat is that I already knew HTML and CSS before entering.

I appreciated that they try their damnedest to hook people up with jobs if they want one. The instructor you wind up with might just be the most important puzzle piece. People in previous classes with better instructors are now in jobs making 70-110k in NYC. I landed a job at an education startup and they offered me 62k.

A friend of mine who entered the bootcamp a few months ago, based on my experiences, landed a job paying 50k. We both admitted that there wasn't much actual coding going on, though -- my job was working with Puppet configs and building out new instances of cookie-cutter websites. His was mainly messing around on the front-end and putting together email templates.

I'd do it over again if I could. It did teach me a whole lot, and got me started on a junior path, but there is no question that most of us need a bit more experience and work before really being able to call ourselves junior devs. As the previous commenter said, a lot of the knowledge they impart is skin-deep -- until you run with it and make projects with it. The students that stayed up till 3am coding, then made it into class at 8:30am are the ones that you'd define as "successful" with 6-figure salaries now.

There are many threads on Quora that answer this question more in-depth, if you want more info.

</comment><comment><USER4> I hired someone who did. He was on the junior end and managed to secure the job through asking excellent questions. My overall impression was that the camp did not prepare him enough, but that he had the kind of inquisitiveness that would cause him to succeed. It's been 6 months now and he's doing well, however the first month was a little bumpy.

My experience has been that a developer bootcamp is not enough for our company, but could probably land you a junior position at an agency. The camps give you a lot of buzzwords for your resume but the actual technical knowledge is skin deep. We have a technical interview, and most bootcamp candidates won't be able to complete it.

If you do try it, remember that simply going into a company afterwords and saying, "I want to learn! See? I took a bootcamp, I can learn!" is not an effective strategy. I've had a lot of candidates try to sell me on how quick they'll pick up on something. Sorry, this isn't a learning hospital. You have to demonstrate initiative and outline your personal learning plan, and convince me you'll be the one in charge of your educational path.

<comment><USER5> this is exactly my experience with the bootcamp i did. aside from some codecademy courses, i had no development background, but i got in based on an aptitude test (IQ test type stuff) and my ability to complete an assignment that assessed very basic java/OOP skills. once i got to class, the learning curve was steep (i was the only one without either a CS degree or prior development experience), and now that i am in the workforce, the learning curve is still steep.

i agree re: the personal learning plan - if you are going to do a bootcamp, don't rely on it to be enough. in addition to working full time, i spend between 15 and 20 hours a week studying, whether it be codeschool, OCW, or working my way through math textbooks.</comment></comment>


YouTube exceeds App Engine quota - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=theyearinreview

<comment><USER2> Care to explain that as except for what you linked to, everything seems perfectly normal.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's an official YouTube account covered in a giant message.

 _App Engine Error

Over Quota

This Google App Engine application is temporarily over its serving quota. Please try again later._

Many of the comments at the bottom of the page indicate many other users are getting it to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> It appears it's actually an iframe'd webpage that's out of quota

<http://youtube-rewind.appspot.com/></comment>


Startup 128: An Interview with Bill Gurley of Benchmark - <AUTHOR> http://www.ansanelli.com/blog/?p=1118 This post is an email interview with Bill Gurley of Benchmark Capital.  I sent Bill 10 questions on what he looks for in his investments, the people he backs, the state of the venture capital business and why Benchmark invested in Twitter.  Enjoy. <comment><AUTHOR> This post is an email interview with Bill Gurley of Benchmark Capital. I sent Bill 10 questions on what he looks for in his investments, the people he backs, the state of the venture capital business and why Benchmark invested in Twitter. Enjoy.</comment>


Millennials' share of the U.S. housing market: Small and shrinking - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/01/20/millennials-share-us-housing-market-small-shrinking/ <comment><USER2> Millennials have fewer siblings to share the estate from their parents.</comment>


Introduction to OS/2 and Presentation Manager Programming - <AUTHOR> http://www.lesbell.com.au/Home.nsf/web/Archive?OpenDocument

<comment><AUTHOR>
      zipped here: http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/h-viewer.php?dir=/pub/os2/doc&file=OS290-v2_90-OS2WProgramming-rel1.zip</comment>


Ask HN: Are there any design-led frameworks out there or should I create my own? - <AUTHOR> Hi everyone. Wondering if you could help me, or at least have a discussion on templating systems that are design-focused.  We are creating a 'sitebuilder' app for a niche and we've created our first app, which has one template.  We have decided to allow people to create designs for the system, but this will mean having a templating language.  We've looked at others - from Wordpress through to Shopify - and most seem to use one that they have home grown.  I am wondering what peoples experiences are?
1) Would you create your own template system as Shopify has done? (http://wiki.shopify.com/Theme_from_scratch). I see the downside of this that every designer will need to use your specific 'language' to create themes/designs
2) Are there any templating languages out there that you would use or recommend. I've looked at language-specific ones, but most of them are focused on coders and not designers. At the moment we have most of the app coded in PHP, but we are moving slowly towards Python, so it would be great to have a templating system that we can use for both
I'd be really interested in what people have to say about this and if they use any solution or what their opinions are
Thanks in advance
John <comment><USER2> Mustache is a great choice, and works in PHP, Javascript, and Python (as well as a bunch of other places). <http://mustache.github.com/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks That looks interesting and I'll feedback on here about what I find out

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Are you thinking of having a library (or even market) of these designs, or is your goal more to allow each site builder to personalise their site in fine detail?

If you are thinking of the latter, or both, maybe you should consider having a couple of layers of customisability. It would be nice to allow simple customisations (colors, logos, even basic layout) without getting into templates. Perhaps with a GUI, but possibly even just something standard like CSS. Even as a technically minded person, I would balk if I had to learn some custom syntax to achieve things like this.

Then underneath you could have a full templating system. If users want full control, they should understand it will come with a learning curve. Even for this, consider starting from a known base (e.g. Django templates), and just building convenient constructs that fit your site (e.g. custom tags for common tasks).

<comment><AUTHOR> The primary goal initially is just to allow people to seriously alter some provided templates or to create their own, so I had not planned on having a marketplace/library (although hopefully this would come out of it). I have a lot of respect for what people have done with the Shopify templates, but I am cautious about rolling our own on the basis that it requires someone to learn it. I was looking for something that might be more widely adopted and used by a few apps (Mustache mentioned in here looks interesting and I'll check it out).

In terms of customiztion with colours, logo etc - we have this already based on CSS. People can pick different colors through a color picker etc and that works well, but I want to two-tier it (as you have suggested) and allow power- users the flexibility to create their own

Thanks for the reply though. Really appreciate it

<comment><USER4> I've been building Shopify themes for the last couple of years. Part of the reason that I've stuck with it so long is that Liquid is really easy to learn. I'm of the opinion that anyone capable of understanding a for loop and if statement can learn the basics of Liquid within a day.

I know there are a few other apps that use Liquid, including one of your competitors. See here for a list: <http://github.com/tobi/liquid/wiki>

From an end-user perspective, I'd highly recommend Liquid. I don't see how you can escape having a template language of some sort, and Liquid seems more thought-out than most.

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought Liquid was created by Shopify, so apologies for that! Didn't realise it was available for others to use. It seems that its just for Ruby / RoR though? We currently use PHP and Python

<comment><USER4> Sorry, for some reason I just assumed you were using RoR.

Liquid was created by Tobi (CEO) for Shopify, and then extracted as an open source project. It was inspired by Django's template language. Since you're on Python, perhaps you could use the original?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I really enjoy Haml: <http://haml-lang.com> and its partner in crime, Sass: <http://sass-lang.com>

Don't be fooled! They just happen to be written in Ruby, you can use them from within Python projects just fine, though it'll take some setup.

</comment><comment><USER6> How about Twig?

<http://www.twig-project.org/>

It can be nice for both designers and developers. The real advantage is the sandbox extension that can make it safe for use in a publicly themeable site,

</comment><comment><USER7> Good question, and this is an issue I'm thinking about, though due to the needs of the project was leaning toward option 1. Was thinking about doing it in a way that no text editing was possible, but that users would have a wide variety of controls they can twiddle to customize ten look and layout of ten pages.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, I've been researching this for 2 days now also, so once I've completed this and see what everyone suggests on here I'll post my findings for everyone to see</comment></comment>


Bonfire chat extension makes Twitter feel a little more like Facebook - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/apps/2012/01/10/bonfire-chat-extension-makes-twitter-feel-a-little-more-like-facebook/?utm_source=HackerNews&utm_medium=share%2Bbutton&utm_content=Bonfire%20chat%20extension%20makes%20Twitter%20feel%20a%20little%20more%20like%20Facebook&utm_campaign=social%2Bmedia <comment><USER2> +1 - I've been using this daily for a while now and it really makes Twitter a much more connected experience. Seeing my friends pop up with those little green lights is great and being able to talk to them in real time is so much better than dealing with the PM lag.

</comment><comment><USER3> Bonfire brings immediacy to Twitter... Like the previous commenter, the DM system has always felt a bit clunky and badly thought out - Bonfire sort of addresses that really well. Makes Twitter an even better real-time tool for collaboration...

</comment><comment><USER4> Loving Bonfire - it's one of those "why didn't _they_ think of that" things that fixes something that you didn't even realise was broken until someone shows you how it _could_ work.</comment>


Recasting Silicon Valley's role in society - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/23/recasting-silicon-valleys-role-in-society/ <comment><USER2> The author bashes ride sharing and home rental apps then goes on to talk about how we should improve markets. Both of these served to discover the real market value of things (taxis are garbage and people were forced to use them so now people flock to uber/lyft/whatever, rent control is literally an attempt to regulate that something is worth less than it is).

Then the author asks the ominous "do we want a 150mph thing driving itself"? Self-driving cars are still in development and they are already safer than people. Planes travel 500mph and they fly themselves. A spacex rocket flies itself.

I'm starting to think this author is a bit daft and is just reducing things to, "I don't like the change that is happening because it's scary. I'll stick to my horse and buggy."

<comment><USER3> >Planes travel 500mph and they fly themselves.

Case in point: Why Tesla's naming of Autopilot is misleading.

<comment><USER4> When looking at how autopilot is used in other industries like boats [http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-an- Autopilot](http://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Selecting-an-Autopilot)

What Tesla uses as the name does not seem far off at all.

<comment><USER3> The point is that the parent thinks planes fly themselves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think it's a healthy discussion to be had.

Yes, the vast majority of problems startups aim to solve are really "first world problems". All those "help us changing the world" snippets you find even in job offers here in HN, are naïve in the best case, and insulting in the worst.

On the other hand, it's unfair to expect them to take the role of "society's saviors": many of the real problems should be the domain of governments and policy.

Expecting for-profit, private companies to solve those it's a huge cop-out and unrealistic.

(EDIT) More context:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/solving- all...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/solving-all-the- wrong-problems.html)

<comment><USER6> For a long time now, entrepreneurs have been solving the 'convenience' problem, as they have found that it what makes them the most money.

It's not about solving important 'problems' for most - it's about how they can make the most money, and that is usually by providing more convenience to people.

This is, of course, how business works in a capitalist society - the issue is that the problems they solve are often marketed as being the most important, whereas they're just selling a dream.

I'm sure they would solve the major problems if they could and there was sufficient money in it - look at how the drugs companies operate - but this is (and has always been) about money.

Amazon are running their competition for better robot picking - are they also running competitions for how to help people whose jobs are replaced by robots ?

Silicon Valley has a single role - to make (more) money for those people investing into it. That's all. There's little to no philanthropy, and when there is it's generally from people who are already far wealthier than is required to live (an excessively comfortable) life.

<comment><USER7> Halfway through your comment I thought of the analogy to drug companies, which solve problems like impotence rather than Ebola because the people with impotence have lots of money and the people with Ebola don't. Worse than even solving the so called first-world-problems, they invest a fair amount of time on "evergreening" which is basically fraud or at the very, very best rent- seeking. Yet, you then used them as an example of an industry solving the big problems.

<comment><USER8> I'm continually surprised at the minimization of impotence. Have you imagined never being able to have sex again for life?

<comment><USER7> Appropriately enough, I've taken a medicine which as one of the side effects, can cause permanent impotence or loss of orgasm, as well as suicide and many other bad things.

It would appear that the evidence for that drug actually being effective in what it seeks to treat is controversial. It seemed clearly better till they realised that the drug companies weren't releasing the studies that showed it in a bad light. Effectively tossing a coin and only revealing they had done so when it matched their preferred outcome.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "People sometimes build software that sometimes have undesirable outcomes, so I have broad and vague concerns towards all software being build. Hey, why can't people instead build software that contributes towards other broad and vague (but this time good!) outcomes instead?"

<comment><USER10> I think its more nuanced than you make it to be. To me the message is "improve people's lives rather than disrupting them"

<comment><USER9> It basically is, just without bothering to elaborate on why disruption is bad, and what improvement actually means -- except in broad and vague terms.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think SV first needs to solve its own problems: transportation, infrastructure, homelessness, housing cost.

<comment><USER2> SV has these costs because people come here to work for tech companies solving tech problems. A great way to eliminate those costs would be to force everyone to work on those lame problems with known technical solutions (at which point anyone looking for a technical rather than political challenge would just leave).

The solution to housing problems is to build more housing. Period. There is nothing interesting there. The only reason it hasn't been done is because it's blocked politically by current home owners that "don't want the feel to change".

<comment><USER12> >The solution to housing problems is to build more housing. Period. There is nothing interesting there. The only reason it hasn't been done is because it's blocked politically by current home owners that "don't want the feel to change".

The interesting problem would seem to be convincing home owners to want the change. Here's one innovative perspective on the issue:

[https://www.dartmouth.edu/~wfischel/Papers/00-04.PDF](https://www.dartmouth.edu/~wfischel/Papers/00-04.PDF)

Certainly there could be others as well. It seems like a lot of people are locked-in to the position that nothing can change unless we get a political coalition together to force the existing homeowners into a situation they don't desire (without properly compensating them). What has been/could be done to make them partners in the growth instead? What kind of new financial structures/contracts could be invented to deal with the types of issues that have been traditionally solved with "eminent domain"?

<comment><USER2> >What kind of new financial structures/contracts could be invented to deal with the types of issues that have been traditionally solved with "eminent domain"?

True, there is room to innovate there, but that's mainly political work. As a software engineer I have next to 0 interest doing that.

<comment><USER12> >that's mainly political work

I was hoping to inspire thoughts of non-political solutions involving input and new ideas from economics, finance, sociology, etc.. Maybe some of these new ideas could come from someone with a software engineering background looking at things from a new perspective (networking theory, distributed systems, machine learning, etc.).

<comment><USER2> Economics and sociology require politics for anything meaningful to happen. You might be able to develop some interesting financial instruments, but they will still require politics to get them adopted.

What attracts me to tech is the fact that I can build things without regard to all of that. I'll admit it's selfish, but frankly life is too short to waste on something I don't care for.

<comment><USER12> I guess I've failed to express myself adequately, I'm looking for ideas that minimize the politics needed to get them adopted. Like it doesn't take politics to propose a $1 trillion buyout of least expensive homes in SF, which you would then use as a starting point to get the zoning laws changed to enable higher density construction.

<comment><USER2> >Like it doesn't take politics to propose a $1 trillion buyout of least expensive homes in SF,

It takes politics to actually push the idea to anywhere beyond the back of a napkin exercise. Once you even go into the question of who should pay for it, that's politics.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I was almost hit by an Uber driver who shouldn't have been on the road so, while I love this new taxi stuff, I have first hand experience with real negative externalities.

I was almost hit the day after a blizzard in Maryland this past January. My street had more than a foot of snow and was impassable for non-trucks. I was out walking my dog and there were dozens of other people playing and shoveling when an Uber driver in a small sedan came barreling down the street. I jumped out of the way while he went another 20 feet before he got stuck. I took a picture of his plate and yelled at him for driving recklessly. Before telling me to f-off he told me that 'if he slowed down he would have gotten stuck'. Being from a Northern state and knowing how to drive in snow, I was flabbergasted by the recknlessness of this. I contacted Uber and they assured me that despite endangering the health and safety of people, they gave the driver a stern talking.

I haven't stopped using Uber (though I use Lyft more now) but it wouldn't surprise me if that driver was operating an unsuitable vehicle in an unsafe manner because of the incentives created by surge pricing. These are real risks and costs which are not born by Uber and we shouldn't stick our head in the sand or shout down those who point them out as Luddites. It also doesn't mean we should get rid of these services.</comment>


Albert Pierrepoint: The Executioner Who Took More Than 400 Lives - <AUTHOR> https://allthatsinteresting.com/albert-pierrepoint <comment><USER2> I didn't see it mentioned in the linked article, but there is a very watchable 2005 dramatization called "Pierrepoint: The Last Hangman."</comment>


Jeff Atwood is a muppet - <AUTHOR> http://marvelley.com/2012/06/30/jeff-atwood-is-a-muppet/

<comment><USER2> All this drama reminds me of this excellent phrase:

<https://twitter.com/agentdero/status/174965036928868352>

      Let's argue about whether Haskell or Clojure is better
      while somebody else ships products using PHP and duct tape.

</comment><comment><USER3> I clicked through in the slim hope that this post would be a revelation about Atwood's actual identity (which one? what color?) but, no, it's just pitiful and insulting nerd chest thumping.

I hope (a) I've saved others an otherwise irresistible click and (b) that's it's obvious that I flagged.

<comment><USER4> Fraggles.

The conversation over WHICH muppet various tech-celebs might be would be more entertaining than weather they actually are muppets. This is a conversation that needs to be had.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> _I try to make sure anything I talk about is well researched, because an baseless opinion is worthless [...]_

...

 _Jeff doesn't seem to know much about PHP. I'd guess he's read some posts about it [...]_

Maybe some actual research would have removed the guesswork from that assertion.

</comment><comment><USER6> If you're going to write an article going after Jeff Atwood for criticizing PHP, you probably shouldn't host it on a poorly-written PHP website that can't establish a database connection. You're not helping your case.

<comment><AUTHOR> Heh, yeah, not the best. But my lack of investment in a decent server would be a problem regardless of my choice of blog software ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> tl;dr: author is displeased with Jeffs latest PHP rant and decides that its time for an ad-hominem attack. Rare in actual substance.

</comment><comment><USER8> Author's primary argument is that Atwood is ignorant of PHP, but provides no evidence author isn't ignorant of everything but PHP.

I guess if you've lived in a box your whole life, a slightly bigger box must seem pretty good. Don't knock my box, you should have seen how small the last one was.

</comment><comment><USER9> This idiot just proves most of this: <http://two- pi-r.livejournal.com/622760.html>

      If you just want to stick up for your "favorite" PHP
      framework simply because it's the only f**king thing
      that you know, then go f**k yourself with a hand grenade.
      There are very good reasons I am advising you not to write
      new things in this f**king completely broken piece of shit,
      and security is only one of them.

Amen.

</comment><comment><USER10> A man criticizes a technology. You spend your time not only criticizing a man, but self-promoting in search of thumbs-ups. Way to go, Craig... You're a muppet.

</comment><comment><USER11> Most developers still think language and framework is important. Mostly it isn't. Jeff just has a higher soapbox. Use Java, PHP, .NET, RoR, Python, it doesn't really matter.

</comment><comment><USER12> Website is down

<comment><USER13> [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://marvelley.com/2012/06/30/jeff- atwood-is-a-muppet/&hl=en&prmd=imvns&strip=1)

Text cache.

<comment><USER14> "The most glaring statement in the entire article is this one:"

WHICH ONE? WHICH ONE?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Well, somebody is starving for attention.</comment>


Ask HN: Who has influenced your personal growth the most? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> My best friend introducing me to RSD back in college, I've since gotten married and outgrown that whole thing but it was massively transfomative in terms of building real confidence, learning to be the best version of myself, taking risks.

Jim Rohn and his words had a lasting impact on me. These days GaryVee and Tom Bilyeu color a lot of my thinking. Tim Ferris inspired me with his experimental mindset because I'm a bit like that too. Tony Robbins too because he has such a great mastery over his emotions despite all the things he has faced in his life.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Who is RSD?</comment></comment>


The GM Trolley Conspiracy: What Really Happened (2010) - <AUTHOR> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gm-trolley-conspiracy-what-really-happened/ <comment><USER2> The author cites a scholarly article titled "General Motors and the Demise of Streetcars", but the link to this article seems to be dead.</comment>


What is the current state of art of opensource, 3D printed ventilators? - <AUTHOR> It would be good to track the current state of art of opensource, 3D printed ventilators that people can print and use. In many countries, there is still massive shortage of hospital beds and ventilators - in an emergency, can any of these 3D printed ventilators be used ? <comment><USER2> 3d printing is a poor engineering method for any such solution, and the hype around it needs to be curtailed further beyond the amount it has withered on its own.

The word "massive shortage" specifically precludes 3d printing as a solution, because 3d printing is expensive and slow, and makes inferior products compared to machined, forged, or molded alternatives.

You cannot 'fix' profit declaring itself more important than human life via plastic welding machines run by undergrads.</comment>


Silently Corrupting an Eclipse Workspace on Windows - <AUTHOR> http://blog.robertelder.org/zipping-corrupts-eclipse-workspace/ <comment><USER2> Seems like the author fell victim to a 2nd type of compression-related prank: using heavily artifacted JPEG instead of PNG for pictures of text.

More seriously dealing with dotfiles on Windows has always been frustrating. In general Windows special casing extensions left and right sounds like a terrible idea. In particular I wonder what kind of perversion lead Microsoft to think that it was a good idea to hide file extensions by default.

<comment><AUTHOR> I just updated the site to decrease the compression on the images. I took the compression level from 30 to 80 at a cost of adding about 70k to the total page size. I often try to avoid using png for any images that don't need to look really high quality because the files sizes generally seem to be larger. Having said that I don't know much about the internals of these image formats, so I suppose I should read up on them one of these days.

<comment><USER2> May I ask why you don't use PNGs? For these types of screenshots I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up being smaller than the JPEGs while being lossless.

Thank you for taking the time to improve the images though, it's an interesting article nonetheless.

<comment><AUTHOR> You were correct. I went back to do some experimenting on file sizes and I was able to update the images to .png with substantially better picture quality and a file size that was lower that the originals that had the artifacts. The page size is now about 20-30k lower than it was originally.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> "Unfortunately, I was unable to get this feature to work on Linux. This only serves to further prove that people who use Linux are boring and don't have much of a sense of humor."

<comment><USER4> The Linux equivalent is any time you tell bash "*".

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This seems like it's just a bug, not some ill-considered intentional feature.

<comment><USER6> Sounds like you're one of those people who use Linux.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I never understood why Eclipse stores plugins in the workspace directory.

If you have multiple workspaces that you switch between, you have to install your plugins into each of them.

<comment><USER8> Because if there's more than one of you working on the same project, you want to keep your plugin versions in sync too, I assume.

<comment><USER7> But that sync happens at the Project level, not Workspace level.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Oh my god, all that time my backups were worthless.</comment>


Starfish larvae create complex water whorls to eat and run - <AUTHOR> http://news.stanford.edu/2016/12/19/starfish-larvae-create-complex-water-whorls-eat-run/ <comment><USER2> "starfish larvae evolved a mechanism"

What's wrong with evolution journalism in few misplaced words. It sounds like it was intentional. It also sounds like, while the mechanism was not yet functional, the starfish larvae did well and good for, like, 100s of 1000s of years at least?

</comment><comment><USER3> Only the Ghost Bird knows..

</comment><comment><USER4> Forget the starfish, how did they make that image?

<comment><USER5> Just a good artist with a pencil, maybe?

You can see more of her work at [http://www.rebeccakonte.com](http://www.rebeccakonte.com).</comment></comment>


EFF goes to court, quashes patent troll's attempt to grab donor names - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/eff-goes-to-court-quashes-patent-trolls-attempt-to-grab-donor-names/ <comment><USER2> Don't celebrate. However ridiculous they might seem, defending against legal actions like this takes time, money, and focus away from efforts that will actually drive the EFF's mission forward.

Instead of patting the EFF on the back for quashing this motion, think of all the resources that went into this hollow victory, and do your best to replenish them.

<comment><USER3> This wasn't a ridiculous legal action. EFF raised money to challenge this company's patent, and the company wanted to know who donated to that campaign. Its not like they asked for EFF's donor list out of nowhere. The speech issue is implicated, sure, but on the other side also the right of litigants to know who the opposing party really is.

<comment><USER4> Then they should as like that - is any of the following named defendants donated for this. And probably get an answer.

But I would have think that a rule against EFF would clash with some of the fallout from Citizen United and the related cases. IIRC there is right now a way to inject money in politics that are very hard to trace to the source.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> On the face of it, and my assumptions that are mostly based on what I know of political donations, I'm actually surprised EFF won this...Yes, these aren't political donations, but if it has something to do with a pending lawsuit regarding something that is kind of political, well, who knows.

In any case, I'll state for the record that I donate to EFF and would be happy to be listed among their supporters, any time, any place.

<comment><USER6> It's more that the first amendment is supposed to protect people from having their association with the EFF exposed if they haven't done anything wrong.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> So now we agree that money is protected speech?

<comment><USER7> The implication being that there exists some notion of "we" which has internally consistent and coherent positions?

It's really easy to feel superior to others when you construct an imaginary person (typically named after 'communities' and given names such as "HN", or "Reddit") in your head that is the nuanceless contradictory amalgamation of all of the various opinions that you have heard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> isnt this the same kind of thing that allows most companies to hide behind riaa/mpaa?

<comment><USER9> The membership of the RIAA/MPAA is no secret. You can privately donate to an organization like the EFF and not want your name published as a supporter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> this is exactly why I would only donaze anonymously using Bitcoin.</comment>


I never knew Google was this massive - <AUTHOR> http://blog.managednetworks.co.uk/it-support/googles-20-petabytes/

<comment><USER2> Guido's calculator, like many of ours, is the interactive Python prompt. There is a good reason Python 3000 will default to infinite precision floating point calculations (or whatever they call it) ... Guido joined Google! Working at Google makes numbers completely meaningless to you. About two months in, it hits you, your brains melt out your ears, and the number of stars in the universe isn't really all that big a number anymore. Python's front man is on Google's payroll now, so Python must be able to handle the need to calculate petabytes and nanoseconds.

</comment><comment><USER3> Google currently enjoys a huge infrastructure advantage but it's not one that couldn't be taken away by technical change unless they were to corner the market in the production of new storage and network bandwidth.

<comment><USER4> This may be true. Computer infrastructure isn't like, say, railroads. Moore's law keeps halving the worth of their computer hardware investment every 18 months. The real opportunities for cornering the market are in those things that are _not_ , so far, technologically scalable: air conditioning, data center size, electricity, mechanical failure, number of technicians, software. Google has expertise in these, true, but there's nothing stopping other companies from getting it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Clever use of rice to drive the point home.

<comment><USER6> It is, but it might be a little misleading. The "terabyte" picture of the giant ship, for example: many new computers come with half that much space on their hard drive already.

<comment><USER5> Sure, but a terabyte of rice is still a giant ship.</comment></comment></comment>


Yahoo updates YUI tool for slick Web interfaces - <AUTHOR> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10363887-264.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-5

<comment><USER2> Here's the real link:

<http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/09/29/yui-3-0-0/>

</comment><comment><USER3> Ok, 2 questions from someone who uses jQuery and Prototype:

1\. Should YUI be considered over the above?

2\. Does it play well with Rails apps?

<comment><USER4> YUI is pretty heavy weight (the API is complicated and it's big) - at least as of about 6 months ago.

But I love DataTable and AsynchQueue, and haven't found comparable plugins for jQuery.

When I need a real editable table, DataTable is my first choice.

<comment><USER5> Dojo's grid is a very nice grid as well. AsyncQueue is a nice api for command chaining. Dojo has dojo.connect which can be used to accomplish the same pattern with a little work but it is not out of the box. I am not sure if dojo has an equivalent to AsyncQueue.

But back to the point of the original question there is no reason that you cannot use JQuery for task x and y and YUI for task z many of the frameworks play nice together so it may not be a matter of learning one over the other but rather using the pieces of the bigger frameworks with your existing framework.

<comment><USER6> Well, sort of. While you can use multiple frameworks, you have to be careful to keep your pages from getting really heavy.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Tesla 'to be probed by regulators' over privatisation plan - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45201155 <comment><USER2> Musk's "funding secured" tweet was incredibly irresponsible. Subsequent elaborations by Musk himself showed he had what amounts to an initial expression of interest, at most.

His tweet seems like, at best, an impulsive, irresponsible action. At worst, it's an emotional attempt to fend off, possibly even directly harm his many critics and short-sellers.

This doesn't look good for him.

<comment><USER3> The rumours of him being high when posting it does seem plausible,a person as clever as musk should have expected condenses of such an action..

<comment><USER2> Being clever doesn't preclude being irrational, irresponsible, or, you know, unstable...

His recent "pedo" tweet wasn't very productive either.

<comment><USER3> True

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> What are the possible repercussions of an SEC investigation? Are they significant?

Assuming for a second that this was just gamesmanship, it could be a great strategy.

Many short sellers get their shorts cancelled due to their stops and lose a lot of money. These short sellers (and others) will think twice about shorting Tesla again and may move on to easier targets.

It could be that all Mr. Musk needs to do is create a plausible story that he believed the funding was actually secured. If he can afford to defend the lawsuits in court and afford the SEC penalties, this could be a big long term win for the Tesla stock price.

</comment><comment><USER5> Interesting. By the look of it Tesla will be the first company sued by the shorts and longs at the same time.

Disrupting the corporate law :P

</comment><comment><USER6> The Dirty Money episode on Tesla is going to be lit.</comment>


MySigMail – UI Email Signature Generator - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/antonreshetov/mysigmail <comment><USER2> This isn't a criticism, just a note to others.

I'd caution others against using the embedded image functionality even if it seems cleaner/more reliable. It bloats out the size of the email you're sending too much. For example I added a 5 KB JPG image, populated all the default fields, and the resulting HTML was 70 KB. This seems to be the result of BASE64's inefficiency.

You could alternatively upload the image to e.g. Amazon's S3 and link to it instead. That way you have completely control, and there's some redundancy there.

According to my back of napkin maths, Amazon's S3 would cost less than 5c/month, assuming millions of requests, and the same 5 KB thumbnail.

I really like this open source project in general. Again, this is in no way a criticism of them, there's no other way I know of to embed an image.

<comment><USER3> > According to my back of napkin maths, Amazon's S3 would cost less than > 5c/month, assuming millions of requests

You might need a bigger napkin.

For 1 million requests, S3 will cost you $0.40, excluding storage or other transfer costs. 5 million would be $2.

It's not _free_ , but also '5c/month for millions of requests' is a tad bit off.

<comment><USER2> May I ask how you got that figure? Using Amazon's S3 calculator here, I am getting sub 10c:

[https://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html](https://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/index.html)

This is assuming a 5 KB image, no free tier, US East, S3 Standard, and at least 1m requests (GET/SELECT). I'm including data out and data transfer.

<comment><USER3> [https://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/](https://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/)

GET, SELECT and all other Requests $0.0004 per 1,000 requests

1000 * 1000 is $0.40 for the requests.

On the calculator link you sent, I put in "1000000" in the GET/SELECT requests, and see "Estimate of your Monthly Bill ($ 0.39)"

<comment><USER2> Looks like I was mistaken. Thanks for the correction.

<comment><USER3> no worries - 40c is still not 'much' by most standards.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Whatever happened to the simple line of text for a sig?

My Name * Developer * Excellent Company * firstname.lastname@example.com * +1.212.555.1212

<comment><USER5> Nothing happened to it. If you like your one liner, keep using it. You don't have to use this tool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I was wondering if it was possible to sign emails on the mail server instead of configuring each client individually. Also annoying is the fact that some clients seem to alter the signature before sending the message, resulting in the utter destruction of my magnificent design. I have seen some tools like alterMIME but nothing specifically designed to insert signatures to the right place. Ideally some kind of milter for Postfix I guess.

</comment><comment> duncan-donuts This is cool, but I think you need to add some clarity around the "project" tab. I thought I was adding some sort of link/info for a project that I've worked on that would be relevant in a signature. I deleted the default one and the entire signature was deleted. I think "Projects" is a really bad name for this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion! It is worth thinking about changing the name of tab Projects for better UX

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is really great! I've wanted something that builds a simple, beautiful signature like this for some time! Thanks!

<comment><AUTHOR> Enjoy )

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Copy as HTML is not working in Firefox

<comment><AUTHOR> Firefox has its own opinion on this matter. We'll have to think about a solution.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add- ons/Web...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Add- ons/WebExtensions/Interact_with_the_clipboard)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is awesome, very well done!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: A browser extension to auto-archive every Hacker News story you read? - <AUTHOR> Hey guys.
I'm the author of Polar https://getpolarized.io/, a reading platform and personal knowledge repository features on Show HN a few months back.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18219960
I'm considering adding a feature to auto-archive every link clicked in the browser extension.
Well.. just certain links.  Like if you visit HN and click on a link it will get auto-archived.
This way you can search your history plus if the URL vanishes (or is changed) you have a copy from when you saw it.
Sort of like a personal Internet Archive.
Curious if you this would be interesting for you guys... if so we will probably implement it. I'm torn.  One one hand it sounds cool but on the other it sounds like it would collect a lot of data! <comment><USER2> HN is too niche - I would encourage you to make a plugin/extension system and leave this website specific work to community.

<comment><AUTHOR> It wouldn't just be HN.. it would be other sites like Techmeme and Reddit. Basically archive every link you click on.

<comment><USER3> don't know if Polar already has that but what I liked with Instapaper was that you could add a page to it with just a simple bookmarklet. No complicated plugin. just a quick click in the bookmark toolback to add an article.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup.. we have one... one click addition to Polar.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Birthday Song's Copyright Leads to a Lawsuit for the Ages - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/14/nyregion/lawsuit-aims-to-strip-happy-birthday-to-you-of-its-copyright.html <comment><USER2> Copyright should be 5 years by default, for free, but you can extend it every 5 years up to 20 years, but you'd have to pay say $1,000 every time. If you won't extend it, then it goes to public domain by default.

We're living in the _abundance age_ , which also means 90% of the stuff out there is "crap" and is quickly forgotten even by the authors. If they can't monetize it in 5 years, and can't afford to pay $1,000, then maybe it's not worth it, and should go to public domain so it doesn't get abused later. And who knows, maybe someone picks it up and makes it much better later, which will benefit the society and culture.

I think some of this is what this document proposes, too:

[http://www.copyrightreform.eu/case-for-copyright- reform](http://www.copyrightreform.eu/case-for-copyright-reform)

<comment><USER3> A counter-proposal:

Copyright lasts one year without registration.

At the end of that year, a work must be registered and a $100 fee put up to extend the term to 5 years.

Every five years after that, the registration fee is increased by a factor of 10.

This seems to address most of the problems I have with copyright, beyond the core conceit of whether it's valuable or not. I really don't understand _how_ the Berne Convention's extremes can benefit a people other than as a hegemonic trade concession.

<comment><USER4> This is a pretty good idea. I wonder what properties would make a $1 billion investment for five years a good investment? Star Wars maybe? That would be at the 40 year mark.

And I am probably confusing copyright with trademark here. I suppose Disney could still own the rights for all star wars merchandise and new content even if they hypothetically lost the rights to A New Hope, due to trademarks, no? Because A New Hope surely isn't worth $1 billion for five years.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's what's insane:

Copyright Protect: is free and lasts 100+ years.

Patent Protection: cost $5,000-$10,000 and lasts 20 years.

Personally I think Copyright should last only 50 years. I'm open to a conversation about why that's fair or unfair. Please feel free to convince me to increase or decrease that number. I think 50 years is fair enough.

<comment><USER6> Copyright should last 5-10 tops. In the current digital world it is more than enough for monetization and we don't lack creation of artifacts which copyright was created to spur. So we may tone it down a bit.

<comment><USER5> Only 5-10 years? That's the other end of the extreme. I don't want extremes here, just something fair. If you made a video game or movie that took 200 million dollars to make you'd only have 5-10 years before it would go into public domain and others could rip and use all your assets.

Other people could take everything you own and created 5-10 years ago. If you have a regular 9-5 job at a big corporation you might not care but for content creators who make content once, then collect payments years down the line (Music/VideoGames/Films/Authors) that would devastate them.

<comment><USER7> I was thinking that copyright should perhaps be limited to some time + a function of you continuing to create work.

So Disney gets to keep Mickey so long as they keep using Mickey, JK Rowling keeps Harry Potter so long as she's still writing books and keeping the world up, and the same with Star Wars. However, if nothing new comes out between extensions it falls into public domain. That would catch all the books, 1 hit wonders, orphaned video games (heh, maybe Half Life would be public domain with the wait for HL3), etc.

Not a fully fleshed out idea (What about after death, if your kids kept up your bestselling X, or if you released a 10th edition of your horrible book with "THE END" added), but it's an idea.

<comment><USER8> Then you have authors releasing a short story and claiming that's all that's necessary to keep up the copyright. Mickey appears as a cameo in a Disney film and he's back in the vault for another 10 years. (Actually, he's still active in Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, so he's likely to never make it into the public domain.)

<comment><USER7> Is this much different than the current system of life + every changing number when Mickey is going to expire?

This small change wouldn't impact the big corporations, but it would start letting smaller things fall into public domain. Then, after a while of acceptance, you do something like limit the number of renewals, make it price prohibitive to renew more than 2-3 times, or limit transferability.

Or you could go for a big bang change and hope you have a critical mass of votes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've wondered if copyrights could somehow be treated like trademarks in that if they enter the cultural vernacular you lose the copyright just like if a trademark becomes a common word.</comment>


Why do most countries drive on the wrong side of the road? - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2018/08/03/why-do-most-countries-drive-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-road <comment><USER2> Worth mentioning that the decision to drive on the right was influenced by "Right of Way" rules sailors used for centuries. When two boats meet head on each moves slightly to their right to avoid collision.

<comment><USER3> Right on a boat is starboard. A "starboard" is a steering board historically (pre-rudder) located on the right side of English ships. [1] [speculation] It makes sense for such ships to keep right/starboard when passing since this minimizes the chance of interference between each ship's starboard.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_and_starboard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_and_starboard)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Metafilter down? - <AUTHOR>

I am physically in shock, excuse me for failing to check if this was already asked. I get a 502 error for metafilter. Is it down? Or is this more of my sucky luck or some crap?<p>Thanks. <comment><USER2> It's up for me right now, dont know about earlier. Also, remember that at this point, there is a webapp/library/revolutionary-modular-noSQL-JS-thingamajig to do EVERY little thing you can think of, so without further ado, I present: <http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you. It is up for me now. Maybe you can direct me to the webapp/library/thingamajig that will put $100,000.00 into my account by the end of this week so I can pay off my debts and get off the street.</comment></comment>


Facebook Scraping: Still a Privacy Disaster - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@mackgrenfell/facebook-scraping-still-a-privacy-disaster-c70dd1896286 <comment><USER2> Scraping is not a privacy problem, or Facebook's problem to fix. If users are happy to publish the data, or add the scraper's account as a "friend" (so it can see "friends only" content) then the user is happy for them to have the data.

The main problem with Facebook is how much data they collect by themselves, including data collected by stalking the user (as opposed to data the user willingly posts on the platform).

<comment><AUTHOR> _If users are happy to publish the data_

Surely 99% of people don't realise that 3rd parties can scrape which groups they're in/pages they're fans of? The scraper doesn't even need to add them as a friend for this, provided the group/page isn't private.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> as soon as the data is public you should be able to scrape it legall no? you can always use something like proxy crawl</comment>


Stepping Out of the Search Box - <AUTHOR> http://www.bing.com/blogs/site_blogs/b/search/archive/2013/09/17/refresh.aspx?

<comment><USER2> This buzzword-infused post goes on and on about how Microsoft's "reinvention of the idea of search" meant they "stepped out of the confines of the search box," so they "needed to signal a change to the world" \-- with a new Bing logo that surely cost a lot more to design than most people reading this make in a year.

For a moment I wondered, WTF?

But then I realized this kind of navel-gazing goes hand-in-hand with the new strategic 'focus' triumphantly announced by Ballmer two months ago (right before he was fired): _" our strategy will focus on creating a family of devices and services for individuals and businesses that empower people around the globe at home, at work and on the go, for the activities they value most"_[1] -- that is, be everything for everyone.

Microsoft truly has lost its way.

\--

[1] [http://www.microsoft.com/en- us/news/Press/2013/Jul13/07-11On...](http://www.microsoft.com/en- us/news/Press/2013/Jul13/07-11OneMicrosoft.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER3> It always felt like Microsoft was chasing after markets that people are trying to leave. Bing trying to replace google search while google is desperately trying to expand their source of income by looking elsewhere while Facebook eats into their google's advertising revenue.

Which makes the last paragraph especially interesting. Insights. Have Microsoft finally figured that search doesn't have much revenue in there to milk anymore and since they have all these data they've collected at such massive scale, perhaps provide useful "interpretation" of these data? That gets me very excited.

And if the result of it all are APIs for developers to use these data, that's going to change a lot on how we make decisions, at least in the entertainment industry (which I work in).

<comment><USER4> Can you give me a concrete example on how all that data can be beneficial to the entertainment industry?

<comment><USER3> Off the top of my head, content acquisition. Which content to acquire, from which production house, with which actors, in what language, how did they do in the theatres. You can compare these indexed data with internal data, and find correlation. Netflix did them all with in house data, and they can do it because they have 114,000 years of streams every month[1]. Their dataset is large enough to pretty much represent what the general public wants. For up and coming companies, this is very helpful.

[1][http://gigaom.com/2013/09/18/building-vs-buying-how- netflix-...](http://gigaom.com/2013/09/18/building-vs-buying-how-netflix- streams-114000-years-of-video-every-month/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This was exciting at the beginning.

"stepping out of the confines of the search box"

"reinventing search"

... what could this new search be? how will it work? is bing finally innovating and thinking for itself?

No. No.

Turns out they just designed a new logo.

<comment><USER4> Hey, man it's innovative! Just like those cool new frameworks that read JSON! And that cool stickers from Trello! Artificial intelligence that can read your mind? State of the art voice recognition? Pfft.. forget that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Justification for new logos seem to be given by placing the logo on a grid and using straight lines to show the relationship between the elements. We see it in this blog post, and we saw it for the Yahoo logo.

Serious question: what are these grids and lines supposed to show me? One would assume there would be intrinsic motivation for the lines chosen (such as a relationship to a simple mathematical object/idea). But to me the lines always look chosen to fit the design, instead of the design fitting the lines.

For example: [http://www.bing.com/blogs/cfs- file.ashx/__key/communityserve...](http://www.bing.com/blogs/cfs- file.ashx/__key/communityserver-blogs-components- weblogfiles/00-00-00-41-77/3-Bing-grid_5F00_small.jpg)

How was this angle chosen for the lines? Why three of them? The lines are parallel, but are they meant to be slightly different distances from each other? If you drew a line in the opposite direction, but aligned it to the slant of the graphic, is that 'correct'?

</comment><comment><USER7> So they made an exact copy of Google's results? [1]

Also, isn't the new logo too similar to g drive?

[1] [http://i.imgur.com/g2SOVCm.png](http://i.imgur.com/g2SOVCm.png)

<comment> simba-hiiipower come on, for real?

[http://oi43.tinypic.com/1ou543.jpg](http://oi43.tinypic.com/1ou543.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The new logo's not bad, but having to explain why a logo is cool is kind of like explaining why a joke is funny...just doesn't work.

</comment><comment><USER9> Yeah, a new logo, that's what they need.

</comment><comment><USER10> "This was much more than just a new logo or a single brainstorm"

<pretty much just describes a new logo and color palette>

"The new Bing identity is more than a new logo and color palette"

Sounds like they're trying to convince themselves, telling not showing, etc.

</comment><comment><USER11> So their conclusion is they need a new logo?

</comment><comment><USER12> Bill Gates should come back.

</comment><comment><USER13> Oh boy. Let's hope Microsoft digs its head out of its butt with new management at the helm.</comment>