I quit the tech industry - <AUTHOR> http://eev.ee/blog/2015/06/09/i-quit-the-tech-industry/ <comment><USER2> This is what burnout looks like. Unless Yelp has a toxic work culture, it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard. After several months, the author will probably start thinking about work again, and begin the job search once more.

Not to say that the author's points are invalid; it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship. There's nothing quite like working on your own idea...especially if that idea is going to make you cash.

Office culture is draining. Some people aren't cut out for it. Additionally, programmers tend to push themselves too hard for too long out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. They're being paid huge sums and sometimes feel that they need to work extremely hard to deserve what they're being paid. They don't see that the work they do is extremely valuable in and of itself. Employment is a business arrangement; a coder doesn't owe the company anything more than their agreed-upon hours of work.

If/when the author does return to work, it's likely they will be much more likely to put themselves first and the company second. They'll likely have a plan to escape working for someone else ever again.

<comment><USER3> Generally speaking, if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work. It's strenuous or dangerous or dirty or degrading or stressful or boring. If it were actually fun, people would be doing it for free.

(Exceptions, anyone?)

We programmers are quite lucky. At its worst our work is only frustrating. And we are well compensated, usually.

Don't get me wrong; programming itself can be lots of fun. But what you get paid for isn't the fun stuff. I doubt there is anyone who gets excited about upgrading and debugging aging Java applications.

<comment><USER4> > if you have to pay people to do it, there is something nasty about the work

Even if someone loves doing something they can still ask to be paid to do it for other people

<comment><USER5> Sometimes, doing it for other people is the nasty bit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > The only things they have in common are that their main products are > websites with tertiary features that let you buy things. Yet both of them > ended up scrambling to write their own payment platforms from scratch. What > the fuck is going on?

* Raises hand *

I was the first dev hire at Datacash and wrote their back-end servers. Datacash only came into existence because an earlier (circa 1995-96) startup trying to sell stuff via the web couldn't handle payments without a card reader and a dialup connection. Handling payments properly is _hard_ , especially as if you do it right (and your business grows) you turn into a juicy big target for black hats everywhere.

I also resemble the OC's burnout, except fifteen years down the line and mostly recovered ... by not working in tech any more. I'm a novelist and I set up and do my own projects more or less in my own time and (as a much earlier tech burnout case said, in Tracy Kidder's "The Soul of a New Machine") I try not to deal with any time frame shorter than a season.

Yes, there is life after you quit your last high pressure tech sector job. And yes, you can find things to invest your personal interest in that don't chew you up and spit you out and which earn you a living. The problem is with the way corporations are internally constituted -- especially with hierarchies of control and command where the people at the top don't have any deep understanding of the problems the people at the bottom are engaged with.

<comment><USER7> Sorry to say, I'm glad you burned out - otherwise no "Halting State",....

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I have been working for myself for last 8 years after completing my masters, in hindsight financially I did not do too badly (tho there was some great and ups and incredible downs!) and it is NICE working from home and watching your kid grow (tho there are quite a lot of distractions!!! says he who is procrastinating reading HN :D )

BUT if I was offered a job with guaranteed employment and steady wages and (gaaasp pension!) like being a teacher I would go for it. Having kids changes your perspective.

I would have been financially much better of if it wasn't for punitive taxes in Ireland, here you reach ~53% high tax rate with only about ~$35K in income. And then there are new property/water taxes they brought in now as well as 23% VAT :( All of these taxes really make you ask yourself "why bother work harder and longer" and really kill any incentive to work. And no we do not get free healthcare here still need to pay for medical insurance out of aftertax earnings. And as a business owner I do not qualify for the full welfare if things go to shit, despite paying high rate of social taxes.

edit: Now that I read my rant in second half of my past, no wonder no good startups come from here, the atmosphere is toxic to entrepreneurship.

<comment><USER9> It is (was) great for Ireland, though. That's how they attracted tons of (large) tech companies to Ireland. It's the perfect match: low corporate tax, no incentive for people to go away and do their own startups, which means you can get paid less as there as less alternatives for you. Very smart play by Ireland.

Then, the EU went back to them and told them they couldn't keep doing this, and very soon (is it 2016?) they will rack up corporate tax and make a fortune. And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon.

<comment><USER10> _And if you 're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon_

Plenty of people have said that about other employers in the past and come into work one day to find the doors locked.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> >I net enough to pay off the mortgage, so I'm doing that, which will leave the entire household debt-free and cut our expenses drastically

The lead seems buried here. This isn't someone quitting, this is someone in a position of incredible privilege, essentially retiring (or at least going on "funemployment" for a little while).

There are far darker ways to make far less money, that are far more worthy of dramatic storm cloud drawings. Maybe once they see past their burnout they'll realize how incredibly privileged they were to even accomplish what they were able to (working remotely no less!) in the first place. Burnout really is a sad and scary thing.

<comment><USER12> I'm fully aware how lucky I am to be able to pull this off. (I don't have nearly enough saved to actually _retire_ on, though.)

Knowing that other people have it worse — or even that I used to have it worse — doesn't make it any better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> An interesting comment I saw in this thread is the suggestion to take medication [presumably to make working a job easier / more manageable].

To this I say -- are you fucking kidding?

Working like we do is already fairly unnatural. Taking medication to allow yourself to continue doing something unnatural, which you don't even like, has to be the one of the most dehumanizing things I can think of. That's modern day, self-induced slavery if you ask me.

And yes, I have experience with this. In college, I met with a psychiatrist about depression-related symptoms. I described my life circumstances (school, work, relationship, etc), and after just one 45-minute session he prescribed me SSRIs. They did nothing, except creates horrific withdrawals as I started coming off them. Then I made the real changes: I ended my toxic relationship, quit my cubicle job, and used my savings to have an enjoyable life for about a year. Then I finished school.

The OP seems to have had a pretty sweet set-up (remote, high-paying job, etc) but misery is still misery. Another comment mentioned burn-out. In my experience burn-out rarely has to do with the volume of work, but rather the mental anguish experienced. I've been burned out working 9 to 5; and energized beyond belief working 12 hour days on my own business.

Here's some advice worth considering for those in similar situations. Quit your job, or figure out how to go part time. Your company won't mind, you're quite replaceable most likely. Really cut down on your expenses; get roommates if you have to (this can be more than a financial improvement -- socializing and having good friends improves your quality of life).

And my god, quit consumer culture. That thing you think you need to buy with your next paycheck? You probably don't. What you need is: a roof over your head, food, laptop/phone, and a gym membership. What's the grand total of all this, maybe $1K/mo? (Depends where you live I suppose.) I'm assuming you're a single mid-late 20s male if you're reading this. What else would do you _really_ need to be happy and spend your time working on your own tech projects?

Best of luck to the OP and anyone else doing something similar.

<comment><USER14> I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the prescriptions you tried, and that they didn't work for you. But don't take that to mean you should lash out at others suggesting it might help this person, or someone else. I think it's a mistake to assume you know exactly what the OP's problem is, what solutions would work, and what solutions won't. There's a good chance he himself doesn't even fully understand why his mental state is what it is, and it could involve things besides his shitty work life. It is very possible that medication could help. I understand prescription drugs can be abused, or over-prescribed. But don't denigrate the notion entirely. Responding to the idea with "are you fucking kidding?" is out of line.

<comment><USER13> The notion that one should consider pharmaceuticals as a solution to not deriving happiness from a desk job really is outrageous. And that's just from a statistical standpoint. It's very unlikely to be the "right" solution for that person.

Same goes for ADHD medication for boys (yes, predominantly boys) in grade school because they can't sit still and concentrate as they're expected at such a young age. I find it absurd how commonplace this is becoming. Humans have not fundamentally changed their genetic makeup in the last few hundred years. It's much more likely the case that the environment has become unreasonable, rather than that the kids are failing their roles as humans.

But wait, if you want mindless drones who do as they're told, contribute to bottom lines, buy shit they don't need to satisfy misery they don't understand, then by all means, humans are failing. Let's fix that. Let's over- medicate. Let's teach people how to cope with a life devoid of meaning and passion.

These are the trends I see when I tune into mainstream narratives and general societal expectations. And it pisses me off. Can the right medication help a small subset of the population who are a few standard deviations off in terms of brain chemistry? Of course it can, that goes without saying. Doesn't mean we're not facing some disturbing trends in the developed world.

And I'll express myself however I please within HN's guidelines, thank you very much.

<comment><USER14> The issue is that this post screams clinical depression to me. Yes, he's also describing a shitty job, one that he will probably benefit from quitting. But it is also common for the feelings he's having to be the result of more than just a shitty job. Also, people in healthy mental states prevent these situations before they get to the breaking point. There's so many factors to consider, and none of us have all the information. For that reason, it should not be off the table to suggest he at least consider seeing a trusted and reputable doctor, and it is irresponsible for you to dismiss that idea entirely.

> But wait, if you want mindless drones who do as they're told, contribute to > bottom lines, buy shit they don't need to satisfy misery they don't > understand

Jesus, what a straw man that is. My approach here is to suggest ways for this man to find contentedness, maybe even happiness. That can validly include medication. Yours is to push an agenda against a type of work life you don't like.

<comment><USER15> I don't see it that way at all, and I'd like to suggest that attempting to diagnose clinical depression from a blog post seems a bit ridiculous. She doesn't sound depressed; she sounds like someone happy to be mostly financially independent and able to pursue whatever projects she wants, not something someone else is telling her to do.

I've felt very similarly over the past few years, and I'm working to build enough of a war chest to make it a reality. I'm not depressed, I'm not burned out (at least not in a general sense; I do occasionally burn out on specific aspects and feel the need to pull back)... I just don't derive too much pleasure building the same things over and over for other people who don't actually understand technology work and have different priorities than I do. I've been much luckier at my current job, but I still feel that way occasionally.

<comment><USER14> I pretty much agree with what you're saying, I just take issue with zxcvvcxz using the mere suggestion that it could be something more, and something that might be helped by medication, as an excuse to deride the entire concept of (responsibly) using medication to treat depression when appropriate.

<comment><USER13> I believe you're missing the point of my comments entirely, probably because you got offended at my tone. That's alright, I realize that I write provocatively.

To quote what I wrote above,

>Can the right medication help a small subset of the population who are a few standard deviations off in terms of brain chemistry? Of course it can, that goes without saying. Doesn't mean we're not facing some disturbing trends in the developed world.

I am _not_ deriding "the entire concept of (responsibly) using medication to treat depression when appropriate."

Rather what I'm suggesting is that the vast majority of people in the OP's situation, or something analogous, are not these brain-chemistry outliers who require medication. Instead, I suggest that the unnatural environment created by office cubicle/computer wage slavery runs counter to human nature, particularly with respect to one's happiness.

I hope it is very clear at this point what I am saying, and that I am not deriding the use of all medication, but rather, speaking with respect to a particular environmental example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "I had stock options, and I cashed them all in last week. I net enough to pay off the mortgage, so I'm doing that, which will leave the entire household debt-free and cut our expenses drastically."

I'm happy for you. Even a tiny bit jealous. But it does in the end make the whole post sound like a humblebrag to me.

<comment><USER17> But that's how all posts like these go, HN loves to upvote them for some reason but they all boil down to "I'm quitting because I have enough money to do it".

<comment><USER18> Boy oh boy, that really puts a different spin on this post, doesn't it. I wish I had the cash to throw this kind of tantrum.

<comment><USER19> That's what it looks like from the outside doesn't it? His pain is real certainly, and like all experience relative to his situation. When you look at it from a perspective of responsibility without an option to stop working, or the fear of not finding work with which you can fulfill your responsibilities his position is a lot tougher to identify with.

I hope I can work hard enough to someday be able to have the luxury of that choice and that I'll remember my current perspective at that time.

<comment><USER20> Reminds of the idea of the hedonic treadmill:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The author's rant is not specific to the tech industry at all, it's the case for practically all full-time jobs.

Full-time jobs generally suck. Spending the bulk of every weekday in an office doing what you're told is not fun. If it was, then people would do it for free. Day to day work is generally unglamorous and boring.

I think part of the blame is that tech employers permeate this notion that one must "love" their work. So we feel guilty for not enjoying cleaning up somebody else's legacy code, fixing that tracking bug, or god forbid solving an IE8 bug.

I totally agree with the author that the tickets we're assigned are all puzzles that I _could_ lose myself in and inevitably get some feeling of satisfaction when I figure it out. But in the grand scheme of things, most of us aren't working on problems of real significance (eg. curing cancer, creating a more efficient battery). Most of us are just reinventing some form of wheel. And most of the problems we solve as implementors don't pertain to us. Rarely do we capture any of the fruits of our labor aside from a "great job!" and a 10% pay bump at the end of the year if we're lucky.

We as employees need to change the culture of employment. Nobody should have to pretend to enjoy grunt work. Work should be about the output you produce, not face time or tracking hours. Being in an office 8 hrs/day and never seeing the sun is depressing, and it's time we acknowledge that and fight to improve the situation.

We can start by demanding that remote work be accepted by our employers. That immediately gives us back our entire commutes (even just one hour a day is huge when you spend the majority of your waking hours in an office and thus only have 6 hours of real free time). And we can demand the freedom to work on our own schedules rather than being confined to 9-5, which we all know for most people is bullshit because we're not on an assembly line and our most productive work doesn't necessarily follow a 9-5 schedule.

<comment><USER22> This. I waste 2 hours a day commuting. 10 hours a week I'm sitting in the car doing nothing, for no real reason other than some company culture nonsense.

<comment><USER23> I've been there before; I have a 2 hour commute door to door from central NJ to NYC, and back, each day. I don't know how viable it is for you, but do whatever it takes to make the change, assuming you're not tied to a mortgage and there just aren't any jobs nearby. After doing it for 6.5 years I was finally able to get it down from 120mins each way to 20mins each way, and it made such a huge difference in quality of life.

<comment><USER22> This isn't the first time I've been in this position. Yeah my last few gigs were within 20 minutes, I thought that it wouldn't be so bad but realize now anything further than 20 mins isn't for me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > _I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to sit at this desk and I'm going to work > on whatever the hell I feel like working on._

> _I don't know how to turn this into dollars yet. Hopefully I'll figure that > out._

Well, good luck. I'm just afraid the reality will kick in soon. Tech industry is by far not the worst way to get some food for fifty picnics; many others are much more soul-crushing, with less chance to retire early.

<comment><USER25> Very much agreed. It sounds like OP is a bit burnt out, and I had much the same thing - I said to myself I'll do my own thing, I've done the hard yards, I'll just sit down to think of something, got a few good ideas... time keeps ticking though, and unless you have endless cash, the bills will keep rolling in. Discipline and focus I guess is pretty important to doing the solo thing.

It's easy to forget the plethora of shit jobs out there once you've been doing software development/ops/IT for a while. Sure, its painful, and some companies more than others, but I agree with another poster that often it's more what you put on yourself versus what's forced on you (at least in my case I think that was often true). I guess it's vital to look for that work/life balance and a company that will offer that (not just lip service); or do your own thing, but that can be pretty hard work too - it's not just coding then, it's all the roles, even the ones you hate.

If there were an easy answer, we'd all be doing it.

[edit] added bit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I couldn't believe what I was reading. I have the exact same feeling about current state of the tech industry.

No one pushes barriers anymore. Rarely anyone makes anyones life better by doing things radically different. We keep reinventing the same wheel again and again. I've been paid handsomely in the last 5 years by doing pretty much the exact same things, using different frameworks for different (and at times the same) companies.

<comment><USER27> This may sound harsh and insensitive, but it's not meant that way.

"No one pushes barriers anymore". No one that you may have seen. Look around, folks do it all the time. Examples abound.

"Rarely anyone makes anyones life better...". Become a teacher, a nurse, a social worker, a friend, a good neighbor, volunteer to work with the poor, etc. etc.

"...by doing things radically different". This is one of my biggest beefs with our tech culture. We're arrogant. We need to step back and realize that a great deal was invented and accomplished before we were born. Many billions of people have passed through life on Earth before us. Some did "radically different" things, but more likely, most did not. What makes you or I so special to think that it's something we're entitled to. Of course we should strive to do our very best and have high goals, but our expectations really should be tempered by reality (not our ego).

"I've been paid handsomely in the last 5 years by doing pretty much the exact same things...". How do you think these roles think about doing the exact same things? Painters, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, bus driver, accountant, sales executive, restaurant owner, sales clerk, etc.

2 parting thoughts: (1) count your blessings, not your problems, and (2) if you're as smart and talented as you think you are, you should be able to improve the situation for yourself and others.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Having a traditional job is such a terrible experience. At the very least, it's terrible if you're not 100% in love with whatever company project you're working on.

I think there are some personality types that are suited to traditional jobs though, since most people don't share my concerns when I tell them how terrible it is to have a job. Because of this, I think more people like the author of this post should pursue non-traditional lines of work without feeling guilty. Perhaps our current economic set-up doesn't allow everyone to be happy, but more people could be happy than they currently are.

<comment><USER29> While i feel similar in that i don't think i could go back to a "normal" job, i also realize how incredibly lucky i am to have this choice. So many people have to do much more grueling work that is not even remotely their passion and earn much less doing so. It's not even a question of education really, imo it comes down to luck in where you were born and some choices that made you end up in an industry that allows all of this.

I also know that there are always people that aren't as lucky and privileged and that it shouldn't be the argument to end all arguments because otherwise no progress will ever be possible.

<comment><USER30> This is very true - we are fortunate and should not forget that. It could be worse (like it is for others).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> This post expresses exactly how I feel. I am currently under a 30 days vacation and it has been incredibly good. In only three weeks I have studied lots of things that were postponed for months or years, worked on a personal project, exercised my body, slept well, read books, disassembled every old electronic device that was lurking for years to clean and fix it, went to a medical doctor to fix health issues that were also postponed and now I still have an infinite list of things to learn, books to read and projects to do.

Now I am really thinking on leaving my full-time job, because the vacation is coming to an end. But how to make money? If I could have a stable but low income without wasting too much time, it would be great. Mainly if that income came from a source with which I care about.

It sucks. Life, I mean.

<comment> saiya-jin Posts like these make me a bit sad, how far some people get detached from reality of this world as a whole.

I would hate it since i am part of this industry, byt maybe we really need some dev crysis, meaning 50% of software engineers unemployed, salaries plunge say to construction engineers level. Those fortunate to keep the job would be glad to be creative with what they have and maybe, but just MAYBE these pathetic rants won't surface as much.

As for you, simple advice - sort out your life, you know better than anybody else what you want, and you're the only one who can do it. it's quite easy, just that some decisions require sturdy balls, not moaning on internet forums :)

<comment><USER31> I respect your point of view, but I don't want to believe that people should feel "awarded" to have a job. This might be how it always worked and how it still works for the majority, but it is, for me, a defect of the economic system, not a virtue. Maybe we (as humanity) actually never get to that utopic society where mundane tasks are all automated and people are completely educated and free from the burden of wage labor (instead of bow down and thank for the "opportunity to waste your life"), but we must set some goals in order to progress, and the "perfect" economic system seems like a praiseworthy one.

As for my salary, unfortunately, software workers here in Brazil are actually earning way less than some construction engineers. In fact, if I had had a degree in Civil Engineering I would be way better off than with my current Computer Science major.

Again, I see you have a point, but internet forums are here for that exactly: discussing -- with moanings included.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I fail to see how this is quitting the tech industry. This is quitting Yelp, but the listing of the Patreon account is all "tech industry" work, just without having a boss or company to be accountable to. The post doesn't seem to insinuate that the author will quit writing software - "Eventually it would be nice to make a thing that actually makes money on its own." Someone who codes and makes money off that product is still in the industry, no?

The author isn't quitting the industry. He is basically going independent, with an undetermined business model.

<comment><USER12> Is it really "the industry" if I'm not running a business?

<comment><USER32> That is the question I guess. If you are trying to make money from what you do, are you not "running a business"? It might not be a traditional business, but seeking individuals to support you financially for the work you do would qualify as a business to me anyway.

Even if you created multiple revenue streams - write a book, produce a game, Patreon, etc. - which appears to be your intent, you essentially are the business at that point, no? At least that's how I'd view it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> It's sad to me that the industry is pushing out so many great people because they feel so disenfranchised by it. I believe technology is one of the most potent forces of good in the world but for that to sustain, a culture has to develop around it with a deep desire to solve serious, large problems.

I attended my first (and last) Hackathon a couple of weeks ago because it was immigration themed and so I thought I could meet some smart, thoughtful people. The pitches were mostly terrible with a few more decent ones sprinkled through as you would expect from a Hackathon.

One of the pitches that was made though, was "Greendir", a Tinder for Green Card marriages. Now, I fully support the guy's desire to pitch whatever idea he chooses but it was depressing to me that Greendir turned out to be the most popular app on the pitch board and the one the most people indicated they wanted to work on. It just seemed to me to be the epitome of the "we're in it for ourselves", move fast and break things, easy X-meets-Y description, get rich quick schemes attitude that is increasingly gaining mindshare in the tech industry.

It really made me wonder, what did these people come to this weekend to do? Why were they giving up their precious time? Because they wanted to be entertained and have a laugh? Or because they believed their powers could be meaningfully leveraged to solve hard problems that have the potential to fundamentally alter people's lives? Furthermore, what impression does it give to the newly entering workers in the tech field who use events like hackathons to get connected into a community of peers and who subconsciously absorb the value of those peers?

Fortunately, I'm seeing the other side of the picture too. I'm in the process of building a startup right now with a serious social mission (we want to get people excited about donating to charity by doing for charity what Whole Foods did for organic foods). I reach out to my network and I see my friends who came up 5 - 20 years ago in tech having the same frustrations by the triviality that's morphed the industry over the last couple of years. The outpouring of support has exceeded, by an order of magnitude, that of any previous startup I've worked on and I think it's precisely because there's a real yearning to see entrepreneurs solving hard problems with large impacts.

<comment><USER34> > I believe technology is one of the most potent forces of good in the world > but for that to sustain, a culture has to develop around it with a deep > desire to solve serious, large problems.

Idealism

> It just seemed to me to be the epitome of the "we're in it for ourselves", > move fast and break things, easy X-meets-Y description, get rich quick > schemes attitude that is increasingly gaining mindshare in the tech > industry.

Reality.

While I can definitely understand the belief that given incredible evolution of technology in the past few decades will be a force for good and change, always remember technology is just a tool. People have not fundamentally changed in a very long time.

<comment><USER33> I think you absolutely have to temper idealism with meeting people where they are but I don't believe that's an excuse for cynicism. At the end of the day, people everywhere want the same fundamental things: A life of connection, respect and joy and a world that is better for their children than for themselves.

Technology & economic development has eradicated illnesses, brought billions out of hunger, enabled new political systems and unlocked creativity as a career option for a large middle class. But it's technology in the broad, expansive sense, not the narrowly focused, web & mobile app economy that is what's meant by "tech" in the Bay Area.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I don't understand the desire to pay off the mortgage after a big windfall, especially with interest rates so low. I suppose you get a vague sense of security, as in "the bank can never take my house away now", but you just took a big chunk of liquid money that could have been used to pay any kind of expense, and you put it into very illiquid home equity that was being loaned to you at a long-term locked-in rate barely above the historical rate of inflation.

<comment><USER12> I understand the math, but I _feel_ like debt is a huge weight on my shoulders.

I grew up with parents who were constantly in more debt than they could handle and constantly reminding me of it. I would rather not be anywhere near that situation again, even if keeping moderate debt would've worked out a little better in the long run.

<comment><USER36> Thumbs up.

Too many people take on unnecessary debt (big house, new cars, toys, ...) It seems like many are at peace with their debt.

Going into debt for anything more than a modest house (rather than paying rent) doesn't make sense to me.

<comment><USER37> Nothing wrong with debt and being at peace with it. Why doesn't it make sense to you? (I genuinely want to know your opinion)

<comment><USER36> Being in debt limits your freedom. We all need to provide for our well being but why take on more than is necessary?

<comment><USER37> Who determines what is "necessary"? Why does it limit freedom?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Of course a full-time job sucks. Most people need one anyway in order to pay the rent. If you have the luxury of getting away without it, of course why wouldn't you?

I have the luxury of working a 4/5ths time (four days a week job). I'm still a programmer. At a university. That also allows me to work reasonable hours on that 4/5th time job, take personal days for personal business, etc. And most of what I write is open source, which is very nice. It's definitely still a trade-off, it's a very frustrating place to work sometimes, I don't always get to work on interesting problems (but sometimes do, in some periods often), I don't have enough colleagues to work on the _really_ cool stuff that would take more IT resources than my employer is willing to devote to what I think would be the really cool stuff. Etc.

My impression is that trying to start your own business will end up taking _more_ of your time than a 'full time job', not less. But if you end up finding that time more rewarding to spend, then, great.

<comment><USER39> Your last sentence is certainly true, but the difference is being able to choose what is worth doing and being fully invested in the outcome.

<comment><USER40> Also control over your time. There's a huge difference between "9 to 5 every day" and "40ish hours a week, pick the times that are most convenient, and have some flexibility in that number based on how much actually gets done"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> "Do you have any internal libraries or systems or platforms at your company? Do you think no one else has ever had the same idea and built the same thing?"

Isn't this one of the reasons behind the FOSS movement? That we as programmers are often repeating the same uninteresting tasks, so perhaps we should just freely share what we've done so that we can all work on something more interesting.

And in the Libre sense of Free -- in the GNU sense (and perhaps I've interpreted it wrongly here) -- this is why GNU is not just "something to make our lives better". It is rather a moral responsibility towards your fellow users, which includes programmers who use your code, not just end users. Because if people don't share, you end up with people like the author of this article: burnt out on writing something that's been written before.

Of course how this meshes with the real world of capitalism is a whole other story. I'm not saying it's not viable: Stallman of course mentions selling support in the GNU Manifesto, and the article also mentions Patreon.

Note that I'm not saying GNU is the One True Way, but rather trying to stimulate a discussion about something I don't fully understand but have been thinking about lately and which I believe touches upon one of the core issues that prompted the author's action.

</comment><comment><USER42> The guy cashed out enough to pay off his entire mortgage and is acting like that's a tough decision. Millions of Americans would love to have that "problem". Millions of people hate their jobs. They don't have the opportunity to just walk away from it, as they often have a family to support.

And then he has the gall to ask for donations? Seriously? Can this post be laden with slightly more privilege?

<comment><USER43> > Can this post be laden with slightly more privilege?

Sadly, it probably was laden with even more obnoxious privilege and what we are reading is the edited version. I'm in my late twenties and I am constantly amazed by how pathetic, obnoxious, and truly useless the younger generations have made themselves. This person wants donations to play with pokemons after letting us know they paid off their mortgage.

My only hope is that this blog post prevents this person from ever being hired again.

<comment><USER44> > My only hope is that this blog post prevents this person from ever being > hired again.

Please don't use HN this way. You're more than welcome to make substantive comments, but pouring vitriol in response to something annoying harms the discourse here. We all have the temptation, but it's important to resist it. Otherwise—long experience shows—the community becomes toxic.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER43> Labeling my comment as vitriol is a pretty insubstantial exaggeration. For all either one of us knows, the author has not given any thought to how their knee-jerk blog post will affect them years from now, when they've tired of playing with their pokemons and need to figure out how to pay their bills again. With any luck, my comment will induce a moment of self-reflection and allow them to consider whether their short lived catharsis from publicly humblebragging about quitting a high-paying, 100% remote job with stock options will negatively affect them in the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I think it is great for the author that their career has allowed them to pay off their mortgage and sit back and examine what it is they are really passionate about. But this was a challenging comment for me from the article:

 _" I've only worked for two tech companies, in radically different fields. The only things they have in common are that their main products are websites with tertiary features that let you buy things. Yet both of them ended up scrambling to write their own payment platforms from scratch. What the fuck is going on?"_

I'm currently working at a tech company that is trying to increase the survival rate for cancer patients. Others are working at companies that are providing medicine or support for folks who have no access to medical facilities. The point being that the experience of two tech companies is insufficient to evaluate the entire industry.

And the bigger point is that how you spend your time is your choice. Take the fact that you are getting burned out in your current job to inform your decision on your next one. That is the key to not getting completely burned out.

</comment><comment><USER46> I think he did the right thing paying off his mortgage. He does not have to create a successful startup as money runs out: he could switch to part time consulting, which is what I did about 18 years ago. Back then we became debt free and except for short jobs at Google and Webmind Corporation, I consulted for probably an average of 15 to 20 hours a week, remotely. The trick is reducing living costs (we live in the mountains in Central Arizona).

</comment><comment><USER47> Understand the author's (Clintonesque) pain, as I am going through a similar problem, but don't have it all figured neatly to disengage from the industry yet.

My own views are that the software industry has reduced its 'professional quotient' a lot, to probably near zero, and hence all this chaos. I used to work in 'well-run and large companies' prior to the internet days, and in some sense we are a victim of the post-internet (mid-90s' post-Netscape) runaway success.

There is no professionalism in the industry anymore, and paradoxically it could be due to the 'open source model'. Don't get me wrong, I like open- source with all that emphasis to openness, freedom etc.. but it has led to the ruin of the small developer. It is forcing a lot of us to jump into the 'entrepreneur/solopreneur' bandwagon.

The openness part described above also includes anyone to jump into the industry (unlike say the medical, or civil-engineering profession; after all do you want a 'hacker heart surgeon' or a 'hacker bridge builder?'). The professionalism is completely mocked at, and all this hero-worshiping of start-up culture etc.. has ruined it.

OTOH, I am not arguing in favor of high-barriers of entry etc... Honestly I don't the answer on how to fix it....

</comment><comment><USER48> A huge congratulations to OP! 7 years ago, I got fired (I should have quit, but didn't have the guts). I had enough money to not have to worry for at least a couple of years, and I couldn't find it in my being to work for anyone – not even freelance.

For me, the first couple of weeks was just reminding myself that I still existed – that my "flesh sack" was still there, and would still be there despite the fact that I didn't have a job. Of course, all of the questions about "what will [I] do next?" didn't help this existential crisis.

I gradually got over it. My main metric for my days was reconnecting with the sense of "flow." For enjoying what I was doing in the moment. Thankfully, for me, I could still find that in something that resembled work.

I knew there was something in my brain that I had to discover, so after the first year, I fled SV, away from all of the noise. Two more years of experimentation later (finally supported by some freelance income), I scored a book deal on a topic that was a perfect amalgamation of my curiosities and interest.

I hope you find a similar sense of satisfaction! Just find the joy in what you're doing, and don't let others' expectations create worry for you.

</comment><comment><USER49> I feel his pain but it's easy to quit when you can cash in your stock options and pay off your mortgage

<comment><USER50> Yes, that's how you do it. If he was burned out and asking how to do it, the answers would be variations on this.

He did it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I resent the fact that so many people here are calling this BURNOUT.

Can you not fathom the idea that Eevee simply saw and accepted the truth: that the job at Yelp was not personally meaningful?

</comment><comment><USER52> This sounds very much like the article I read yesterday: [http://mashable.com/2015/06/09/post-hipster- yuccie/](http://mashable.com/2015/06/09/post-hipster-yuccie/)

</comment><comment><USER53> "I don't know how to turn this into dollars yet. Hopefully I'll figure that out." This just oozes privilege and naivete. If only most people scraping along had this kind of safety net.

<comment><USER12> I am definitely hecka privileged. What would you have me do? Keep working a job I don't enjoy, out of guilt that other people have to do the same?

<comment><USER54> You should definitely do what makes you happy.

However, the blog post seems a bit braggy. A lot of us experience the same things, but we don't have a safety net(other than the gubmit I guess), it breeds jealousy. If I were in the same situation I would have left off the part about cashing out and paying the mortgage and not created a patreon without something to back it up immediately.

It would have been better if it just listed the reasons you're leaving and maybe some insight into how you might fix some problems.

<comment><USER12> I wrote it because it was what I wanted to write, not as a formal teardown of the tech industry. You may notice that I didn't submit it to HN.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> _I'm just thoroughly exhausted. I have so much I want to do, yet I'm selling half of my waking hours every weekday to someone else, for the sake of cleaning up their legacy messes. By the end of the day I'm already worn out, and now I have to squeeze in whatever I wanted to do alongside relaxing and doing chores and maintaining this fleshsack. Weekends are nice, but become a mad dash to get fifty things done, meaning none of them get done._

And then add kids to the equation! I left my full-time job for part-time contracting ( _ahem_ consulting!) just over a year ago. I work about 60% of the hours that I previously did, make about 80% of what I did, and spend the rest of the time with the family and catching up on "life". Not sure if it's a longterm solution, but I'm enjoying watching my family grow.

</comment><comment><USER56> Some days I dream about this and going out on my own, or pursuing that startup idea that's been itching the back of my head for so long. I couldn't leave the tech industry per se, but at least changing what I'm doing in it.

But then I realize I've been doing the day-to-day for so long that I have accumulated the trappings thereof: mortgage on a house, two cars, a "comfortable" lifestyle.

To leave puts it at risk. I fear not being able to make it solo. The startup idea will take too long or fail if I bootstrap it. We'll have to move. Downsize. Change our lifestyle. Affect the kids. And a downward spiral of thoughts like that.

So I'm back at my cubicle today. Wishing I was working from home to watch the new baby grow while I code.

</comment><comment><USER57> Work-Life-Balance, such a great lesson many 20 somethings should make an effort to learn before they destroy the passion they have for whatever it is they are passionate about.

I'd never tell someone to not work hard or to strive for things they want to accomplish. But be able to step back and look at the big picture. Life is too short. Don't forget to enjoy it while you can.

<comment><USER27> Well stated. It applies to all age groups. I recently forced myself to 'stop and smell the flowers' (or however that phrase goes). I discovered something that had been around me my whole life that I had never noticed. I noticed the beautiful singing of the cardinal (the little red bird). Since then I listen for them and hear them often. It's a beautiful sound and it's a reminder to not take work life so seriously and enjoy the beauty of nature.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> After reading on HN about the miners in England yesterday, it's difficult to generate too much sympathy for your situation.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9677863](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9677863)

I hope that you translate your passion into using technology to truly help make the world a better place.

<comment><USER59> I thought the same thing... first world problems in its essence.

<comment><USER60> So just because someone has it worse you have to enjoy your job? Doesn't work like that.

What the OP realised is that money is no good if chasing it wrecks your time. Is he lucky to be able to choose another way? Yes, but that doesn't make his decision any less valid.

<comment><USER59> Sure he has his reasons but it's most because he is making a decision that he believes is the right to do, not because his employer did something wrong.

I am in the exact same situation as him (without the equity large enough to cover my mortgage), but I recognize my last employer was actually good to me, my unhappiness was not their fault.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> This is not burnout, this is professional dead-end our industry became because... well he kind of explained it in his post. It is amazing that you have all this knowledge and you have to set it aside, because of all the same problems that are present everywhere. And I mean exactly the same legacy mistakes that are made in good faith supposedly and now you have to show professionalism and reason and as senior guy accept it and deal with it.

The only thing I am sad, is that I can't do what he did.

<comment><USER22> Heh. I've thought about this a bunch and come to the conclusion that it's why a startup based purely on ability to execute succeeds so often. It takes the right group of people in every facet of the company (sales, technical, etc) that have seen these mistakes over and over and refuse to let the company repeat them.

It's not often you get that group of guys together in the same room with a good idea and a VC, but when you do it's a fun thing to watch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> I feel like this before even starting my career...

I'm passionate about structuring knowledge, perception, society, art, sound. I'm good at creating concepts.

As a programmer I'm mediocre (I can learn what I need quickly and on demand, but I'd not open-source a library anytime soon). Yet I still feel like this still is the easiest way to earn a living.

My aim is to have the freedom of a digital nomad. Making money and tech (also as the execution of ideas and concepts) is just a necessity...

</comment><comment><USER63> You got burnt out, no need to turn it into a sob story or a bitter industry rant. You couldn't manage your time effectively.

By all means if you're unhappy change your lifestyle -- and pronto -- if you can eek out an existence in a more fulfilling way then get to it, but don't try telling everyone they work in a "stupid, backwards, fledgling industry" because you didn't like your job.

Just another "woe betide me"-disaffected-techie rant.

</comment><comment><USER64> A separate comment I want to make is that the cute puzzles talked about in the article are pretty much the same everywhere: deal with politics, deal with poor performing code, deal with random idiotic UI decisions. The more interesting thing is to work on your own code or company where you have users and customers and they can guide you toward a good design or to work on harder research-y things, things that fall under computer science or software engineering.

I was re-reading one of Paul Graham's earlier essays, the ones I read while at the tail end of high school and beginning college and it basically says give the hackers direct access to user feedback and they'll do the right thing. I don't know what happens but along the way all these companies that started out like that have just introduced layers and layers of people between the user and the hacker so much so that the hackers opinions about what's the right thing to work on right now are ignored.

Maybe it's just time to get back to that and take that exit strategy; just work on a small cool product that _you_ own where you get user feedback immediately where _you_ decide the priority.

</comment><comment><USER65> "I hate dread. What a completely useless emotion."

Funny you should say that, since the sense of dread seemed to motivate this decision pretty heavily. Seems like the emotion was pretty useful as a sort of "burnout immune system".

<comment><USER12> Ah, interesting! Useless in the same way pain is useless, then — not very helpful in the moment, but it sure teaches you what to avoid in the long run.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> "I've worked remotely my whole career"

I wonder how much of a role does this play in (not) caring about your employer's problems...

As much as I can understand the benefits of working remotely on occasion, doing it all the time will cause a kind of disconnect all by itself. You see the problems as your employer's problems, instead of your team's problems. Your are fixing your employer instead of helping your teammates.

<comment><USER67> Even if you're f2f, at some point, especially if you've worked a few places, you'll still see the same patterns of problems cropping up, and the same ennui will likely set it. Perhaps not as soon as for remote workers, but it will happen.

If you really bond with your teammates, but still see the same recurring problems, you'll almost certainly develop an 'us v them' mentality against 'management', justified or not (though, it likely will be justified if you're seeing jr-level mistakes constantly promoted as the next magic bullet).

<comment><USER66> But it'ss much easier to avoid burnout. Even if your objective is based on an "us vs. them" mentality, you still have a purpose. If you feel like you're working alone (and sometimes this happens even with other people around) it's much easier to find out that your work means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

<comment><USER67> "easier to avoid burnout" feels to me more like a function of time vs actually being f2f with folks, assuming the work doesn't change dramatically. But... my data points are primarily my own and some colleagues, not a comprehensive view of techfolk.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> A lot of the work we do as programmers is for a meaningless product. If we worked on things that we believed in, maybe something that helped people live better lives, especially those who really need the help like the poor and disenfranchised, I believe programmers would be happier people. There just isn't a lot of opportunity out there right now to do meaningful work with code. It's a shame.

<comment><USER68> Additionally, I don't think the answer is to work less and have more leisure time. I don't think that really solves the issue. I think you can spend an enormous amount of energy and time on something you love, and be very fulfilled by it.

Coders have a lot of power in this day and age. Let's start using it to help people and do good work in the world. I'm so tired of meaningless tech achievements, one after another. Elon Musk may get us to Mars, he may help us reduce our energy usage, but we'll still be the same depressed people if we don't work on improving the system.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> I've been a tech consultant since my late teens but got out and passed all my clients on to a close friend so that I could focus on my own work about a year ago. It was a leap of faith for sure, but where there's a will there's a way. During my decade of consulting I set up some automatic income through a few different routes ( never put all your eggs in one basket! ).

I entertain the thought of selling what I'm working on some day for a big payout, but that's a completely optional scenario for me. Because of the simple fact that I've never been happier in my life.

I feel like my work I do now actually matters. And even if it never makes me a dollar, it brings me joy. And that's what life's all about in the end ( to me at least ).

I wish you all the best and in my opinion you certainly made the right choice.

One note: getting the combination of automatic income right was a learning curve, if you ever want to know what works for me, feel free to reach out.

<comment><USER12> Thank you! I'm glad you found something simultaneously worthwhile and profitable. Here's hoping I can do it too.

<comment><USER69> I'm sure you will! This is something that has always inspired me: in the US small businesses are heroes, going out on a limb and doing your own thing is the definition of the american spirit. Becoming a job creator in the process is an incredibly rewarding feeling.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> There are quite a few different topics in this post. I just take one: the fact that people keep reinventing the wheel (libraries/systems/platforms) and the frustration that triggers.

Humans aren't really "built" to cooperate, right? I think almost all could accomplish far more if it would be easier/more obvious to work together. We call competition healthy, and it might be, but it also takes the focus away from cooperation.

It takes a lot of effort to make others (peers, customers, managers,...) work together. And if some don't (which is often the case), the amount of effort required grows exponentially. Although the satisfaction is huge, it's easy to think the cost is greater than the benefit.

Just a guess of course, but maybe this is what the author lacks in his/her career? Too little cooperative efforts on the tasks he/she performed?

</comment><comment><USER71> This is interesting mostly because it echoes my feelings of dissonance with the employers I've worked for.

My conclusion was that I needed to be more in tune with the/a business that I'm ultimately trying to serve, and therefore to be closer too it. Because until then it all seems like pointless bit shifting.

</comment><comment><USER72> Perhaps it is just working environment? Since I quit cubicle my productivity skyrocketed and I actually enjoy it.

Banging your head against a wall on unsolvable problem? Lets take kids for lunch, some swimming on beach. I will resume head banging at evening, but problem is usually cracked before that.

<comment><USER73> I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think it would help in this case as he says he was already working remotely.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> Imagine that this article read as follows: "I used to have a great job working at Yelp. I was paid highly for it and accomplished a lot. I even got stock options. I've made it now though. Screw working hard, I'm through with that. I'm paying off my mortgage and gonna live the easy life now. Good luck to all you suckers still in the software industry. Bwwuahaha."

Somehow I don't feel much sympathy for this person. Many of us have been working miserable software jobs for years, but we still give it our all and don't throw in the towel.

Yeah it's great that this person made it through, but it's a crappy example for the rest of us.

</comment><comment><USER75> It sounds to me that the OP simply got tired of confronting an endless sea of technical debt. It happens to the best of us.

</comment><comment><USER76> You don't have to justify yourself for quitting your boring full-time job. Most people don't have that option and you're in a fortunate position. I wish I knew more people like you with the courage to actually quit once you're able. I have too many friends who continue to slave away, complaining about their jobs, yet have banked 7 digits+, all because they think that they'd feel out of place and without things to do if they quit, or just want to continue accumulating more money. I don't see a reason to accumulate money if you have no time to spend it.

</comment><comment><USER77> > I stay up hours later than I mean to, not even doing anything, just trying > to put off sleeping — because the next thing I experience will be waking up > and going back to work.

Shit, I get this and I'm not even in a particularly toxic work-place. Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it's the best place I've ever worked at (and it had some stiff competition, over the years).

That sentence resonated with me, i'm sad to say. Not a good sign.

EDIT: After having stewed on it for a few moments, I'm not sure me saying 'Not a good sign' is actually correct.

</comment><comment><USER78> Good for him, I'd be surprised if he didn't end up back in the tech industry at some point in the future but the guy obviously needs a break/change of scene. Hope it works out for him

</comment><comment><USER79> Ok, so... I agree with the author on a lot of points, but from what I've seen devs are the most pampered of all professions. Cut the most slack. Given the most pay. Extended the most deadlines. And rightfully so. But if you can't take it now... when things are "good" \-- wow, I'd hate to be you in a down economy.

Lots of truth to this, but look we all have mortgages and what comes across as "asshole" is the complaining. We all have a mortgage, why are you a special special snowflake?

</comment><comment><USER80> I guess the real trick is to build your own business, but it keep it small enough that you don't end up exactly in the same place, but with yourself at the head of it.

Find yourself a tiny niche, fill a need for just enough people that you can keep yourself gainfully employed doing something you care about, and not have to worry about hiring other people to work under you and all the other shit that comes with building a company. Stay small and lean. You won't get Facebook rich, but maybe you'll be happy.

</comment><comment><USER81> "I've worked remotely my whole career"

Regardless of all the perfectly valid reasons for being unhappy in what most people consider a cushy job (the author seems perfectly aware of that), this could possibly be an important factor here.

Working remotely means you only get a small slice of what most people get out of their job. Again, this is perfectly fine if you're not "most people", but if you've never known anything else than that may play a considerable role in being dissatisfied with having a job.

<comment><USER12> I'm not exactly a social butterfly, so from my perspective I've been getting much _more_ out of my job by not having to work in an office.

</comment></comment><comment><USER82> I was wondering what this person's situation was. Then I read this in her(his?) blog:

> I currently work for Yelp from the comfort of my home in Las Vegas. I live > with my ridiculous cat, my partner, her three cats, her husband, his dog, > and our boyfriend.

Now it makes more sense. In my limited experience, when you're working remotely, you feel disconnected from the mothership. To this, add some work stress, and it's easy to get disenchanted.

PS: I don't really know how to parse that sentence. No wonder NLP is so hard! ;-D

</comment><comment><USER83> Unfortunately the world is a cruel place, and this guy wants freedom from it. I know, I took the 3-4 months off after quitting a job to do my own thing. I did earn a few dollars but nothing like what a business was willing to pay for my skills.

We'd all like to be free to do what we want to do, but in all honesty only a fraction of 1% ever get to. And even those people serve a master. Did I ever find the answer, no. I think what its going to take is a huge leap in what we call work.

<comment><USER26> It's great that you at least tried it. Takes guts to do so.

It's something I've always wanted to do, but been waiting for that next level of financial security before I do so. Problem is, every time I reach the target, I'm not satisfied with it and want to make a bit more money before I can back off. It's a vicious circle into an ever looming burn out.

<comment><USER83> You can do anything you want to do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> I am in a similar phase, just two more days left in my current job. After that I shall start working on my own projects and freelance and build MVPs for startups to keep me afloat, which I also enjoy for the fulfilling responsibility. But I am only experimenting it for next few months and if it doesn't work out I shall fall-back. Good luck for your next steps.

</comment><comment><USER85> Well said. I checked the article, and apparently I didn't write it.

</comment><comment><USER86> Half your day gone? Try having a baby! Then you can choose between getting 1-2 hours of "me" time at 6am or 10pm, both of which cut into your sleep time.

Not trying to make comparisons here. I was exactly the same prior to fatherhood. But now I wonder how I let all the time go to waste before. Half a day available would be great!

</comment><comment><USER87> I empathize with the OP. I wanted to post a reply to probablyfiction explaining to him. Instead I will list the reasons why burnout could have happened to him.

Point 1 "unless X has a toxic work culture,it's likely the author brought it on themselves by pushing too hard."

An overstatement unless you know what he faced. You were hired for your problem-solving ability where pushing hard can be expected at times. In reality this could be he's not pushing too hard so much as the existing environment which leeches effort and adds burden to every step. Toxic culture is somewhat unlikely but what if he inherited a huge technical debt, this happens a lot.

Point 2 it's a terrible feeling to have to spend your most productive hours working on someone else's problems. He or she may find themselves drawn toward entrepreneurship

Wrong. IMO you can either work as a product engineer role building something new (hopefully) or as support role integrating products/fixing glaring bugs crappy code/migrating systems. The latter is not exciting. A developer MUST be capable of both and SHOULD be given at least an opportunity for both. It does not have to be in your own startup. I maybe a coder but I am not a horseshit shoveler.

Point 3 Office culture is draining. Some people aren't cut out for it.

Why ? It doesn't have to be. Even then why assume work culture is the culprit here and he is not cut for it.

Point 4 Additionally, programmers tend to push themselves too hard for too long out of a misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. They don't see that the work they do is extremely valuable in and of itself.

Translation the coder has to see the fine line of enthusiasm between "working already" and overzealous. Seems like a hypothetical problem unless you tell why is it relevant here. About the "work" you say, you should tell what "work" is. It is not just the stationary lines of code lying on repository, but the amount of effort that went to write it, debug it and will go to maintain it. A badly written project demands higher effort to keep it running than what you could imagine.

Point 5 a coder doesn't owe the company anything more than their agreed-upon hours of work.

I know that is the agreement. But I don't know if you have seen places where boss wants work in a deadline and not hours a coder spends and wants it done. You should remind him that then.

</comment><comment><USER88> I think OP really was burning out. I have a daily job but manage to get solid side projects shipped. 8-5(Till 5 is the important part! no overtime). I get home. rest or gym till about 7pm then get cracking. Usually sleep around 1am. Im a heavy sleeper so i dont do it every day. but its enough to get things done.

</comment><comment><USER89> Not everyone can work on passion projects, _someone_ has to be the employee, the economy just doesn't work without it. Unless maybe if you run a company like Valve where everyone is technically an "owner". Bottom line large value projects require economies of scale and the mobilization of large labour forces, it's just not realistic for every business in our industry to be a company with two founders who are in love with their project. And work should not be something we "love", work is something we do to bring value to our society and wealth to our families. There's no easy answers here but stick to providing _value_ to those you work with, or for, or for your customers, and I hope in the long term it should work out for you.

</comment><comment><USER90> Finding a balance is the best way to manage stress. And just like anything else, people have different levels in which they believe things are stressing them out. What may be stressful to one person may not be a big deal to another.

I feel this every day being in the tech industry and as a Navy Vet I almost giggle when I hear what stresses people out. I'm sure the Navy prepared me better for dealing with stressful situations but unless there's a gun pointed in my direction I rarely find anything about the tech industry, my work load, or stuff I'm working towards as stressful. Again, it's all about finding balance and being able to put things into perspective. If you have no context about what is really stressful, than everything becomes stressful.

</comment><comment><USER91> This post reminded me of another I-quit-the-industry blog post from a while back: [http://mashable.com/2014/04/30/programming- sucks/](http://mashable.com/2014/04/30/programming-sucks/)

<comment><USER92> The Mashable post was much better actually. It was a bit sarcastic, but more interesting in that he tries to point out some of the day to day problems instead of just throwing his hands in the air. Thanks for the link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER93> In a way, this is a good argument for contracting, as long as you do it right.

If you know useful stuff, people will always offer you a bag of money to help them out. It is extremely rare that you get the bag of money and you get to do exactly what your passion is. Heck, most of us just have some vague idea of what our passion is anyway. So it's always some sort of compromise.

But with contracting, you should be looking at a fixed amount of time working, then a fixed amount of "downtime", then back to the market again. You should ask for enough money in the bag (or adjust your expenses) so that both the uptime and downtime is included in the payout. Otherwise you become a prisoner of your own lifestyle -- which is a godawful place to be.

<comment><USER94> Working for a consulting company can also be a good middle ground. They provide a corporate support network for you, but you aren't tied to one kind of project for years. Most consulting projects are greenfield, too, because the other party doesn't usually want to give you their own hard-earned code, so maintenance hell isn't usually an issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER95> We're not meant to do jobs, this is just some modern made up concept to keep people busy so they don't see they are actually analogous to cattle.

So that you don't care about the virtual problems you solve for virtual company X, is perfectly normal and healthy. They are not your problems, they are not even remotely life-threatening, and so they are not relevant for survival.

Jobs are just created to keep us busy, as I said before. If we imagine a world without money (realistic or not), about 90% (educated guess) of jobs would not even exist anymore, as those are just jobs that do some money-related thing: Banking, insurance, financial advice, most lawyers, any administration department at any organisation. Indirectly even more jobs would disappear, because there is no need to compete financially, which means for example all R&D in a specific field can be brought together, as no one has to invent their (still unpatented) version of their wheel anymore.

We would be in a world where only work is done that is needed, that is directly involved with our survival, curiosity or entertainment, and no 'need' is created by some virtual dependencies. We would live in a world where everybody has the time and freedom to pursue their own dreams, without having to be afraid they will get in trouble later (because no pension built up etc).

We would also able to always pursue the most efficient and sustainable way to do something, as money is out of the equation. No more fraud, no more oil leaking in the oceans, no more rainforests cut down, and with all the empty offices due to disappeared redundant jobs, the demand for resources will be down and we wouldn't have to build any new houses or shelter for many years to come.

So yes, wake up and stop working and go exploring. Travel the world, find a skill that is directly useful to people, as helping out people will make you happy and you will get food/shelter in return even without asking for that. See also: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7SVLaDdvDY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7SVLaDdvDY) and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCFe2KnBuJ0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCFe2KnBuJ0)

Anyway, don't worry about financials. I went travelling in 2013, through Europe and Canary Islands, and spent about 5000 euro's in 18 months. With what I've learned now, I could spend twice the amount of time travelling with the same money.

At the moment I'm (unfortunately) working in IT again, because I haven't found the way yet to earn bread on the road. When I started travelling I knew nothing, now I know what to do and so this will be the last time I will spend many hours a day in an office, as my salary will buy me all the gear I need to make a(n easier) transition.

Anyway, whatever you do, don't lock yourself up in a stone prison for the rest of your life. Become your own boss. Don't spend your life realizing other people's dreams and wealth, because you WILL regret it when you are a pensioner, as then you find out you forgot to live your own life and there's no energy left for it now.

<comment><USER96> > We're not meant to do jobs, this is just some modern made up concept to keep > people busy

And

> We would be in a world where only work is done that is needed

Contradict each other. Of course no one WANTS to work but there are things that HAVE to be done. Like farming, hunting, building shelter. Chopping firewood to keep warm in the winter. You know, modern, made up problems like that.

> We would live in a world where everybody has the time and freedom to pursue > their own dreams, without having to be afraid they will get in trouble later > (because no pension built up etc).

There is very little time to pursue anything other than survival in a subsistence existence. And you better hope you have children to take care of you when you're physically unable to complete the work.

The fact that people have any time at all to dedicate to non-survival-related pursuits should tell you how important all that work that we're not "meant" to do is in the broader scheme of things.

<comment><USER95> >Contradict each other. Of course no one WANTS to work but there are things that HAVE to be done. Like farming, hunting, building shelter. Chopping firewood to keep warm in the winter. You know, modern, made up problems like that.

But those are not made up problems, those are necessities and cost only a minimal amount of time per day, especially if it can be distributed over many more people.

Anyway, how does it contradict? With jobs I mean modern (office) jobs, and I'm clearly saying in the other sentences that it's about _needed_ work.

How is there no time to pursue anything? When I was travelling and not working at all for two years, my quest for survival meant that I had to get food and water and had to keep my shelter clean and working. I 'worked' like 4 hours a week on this.

There is a lot of time to pursue, like helping other people out, learning to play an instrument, making art, building things. If there is any hard physical work to do, we have machines for this, and otherwise always other people around who can help.

All the work we are not meant to do is any work that doesn't produce anything for our survival. That is everything money-related, everything entertainment- related, and everything that is done redundantly because of patents/copyright.

So collectively we would have ALL the time, not less, and then surviving is just peanuts in that case.

<comment><USER96> > But those are not made up problems, those are necessities and cost only a > minimal amount of time per day

Minimal, LOL. What world do you live in? I suggest you pay a visit to Amish country some day and see how people unencumbered with "made up problems" live. Farming and other survival-related tasks are literally ALL they do. And it's all you would ever do without people sitting in offices and factories tending to "made up problems" in order to make your life simpler.

> How is there no time to pursue anything? When I was travelling and not > working at all for two years, my quest for survival meant that I had to get > food and water

Were you hunting and farming or scraping together a couple bucks so you could head down to a store or restaurant to get food? You would not be able to do that without an army of people in farms, factories, and offices making the whole thing work.

> If there is any hard physical work to do, we have machines for this

Who builds the machines? A bunch of people tending to "made up problems" in offices and factories.

It's very tempting to think you've unlocked the meaning of life after slumming through Europe for a year and a half but you're totally ignoring the fact that there are numerous people working on "made up problems" in tech, agriculture, and manufacturing making it possible for you to do that. You absolutely do not want to revert to an agrarian lifestyle. It's not fun. Realize that some of these "made up problems" in the first world help you actually live a better life than a life of subsistence would.

<comment><USER97> No offense, but I disagree with pretty much all of this. We work more than our ancestors do, not to make an easier life, but for the sake of incorporating the ephemeral and inconsequential into our lives. And an agrarian lifestyle can be loads of fun, actually. I got more of a sense of accomplishment helping on my grandparents' farm than from any blue collar job I've ever held.

<comment><USER96> Yes the work can be rewarding but I'm really addressing the author's misguided point that all our modern work is to solve non-existent problems. In reality, it's to make our lives easier and more comfortable.

The flipside of a completely agrarian society is very little safety net. Crop disease? Drought? Animal sickness? Broke your leg? Life just got a lot tougher. Like, life or death tougher.

<comment><USER95> Again, because you don't seem to read what I'm typing:

Not all modern work, just all the work that has directly or indirectly to do with money and jobs that come forth out of that (like the cleaning crew or receptionist of an insurance company or bank).

We do a lot of redundant, unnecessary work, just for the sake of working, without ever consciously asking ourselves what the use of this work is and who is actually helped with this. Unconsciously this question comes by a lot, and that makes people burn out in the long run.

Drop your assumptions and prejudice and read my posts again. We are actually able to make our lives easier and more comfortable, but instead we let ourselves be fooled and forced into doing robotic labor, never-ending jobs, and repetetive tasks. Just because we are told it's necessary and makes our lives more comfortable.

<comment><USER96> > Not all modern work, just all the work that has directly or indirectly to do > with money

And then the point of doing this work would be...? There's a reason "money" is a universal concept: it's compensation for time spent working on things that aren't necessary for the survival of an individual person. Remove that and you've removed motivation for people to do things that they don't want or need to do. Your line of thinking does not scale to society at large.

> We do a lot of redundant, unnecessary work, just for the sake of working, > without ever consciously asking ourselves what the use of this work is and > who is actually helped with this.

I don't know about you, but I work so I can be paid and live a more comfortable life. I'm pretty sure that's most people's motivation. And perhaps working on nonsense is a Valley thing, but my coworkers and I certainly work on software that improves the lives of others. Perhaps you should try to find a company like that instead of declaring that everyone works on useless junk, money is pointless, and we can all be farmers on 4 hours per week of work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'd like to plug going part-time as a good way to temper burnout and provide a soft landing for if/when you eventually decide to leave. You still get some money coming in -- proportionally more due to progressive taxation. You still have benefits, which the company may or may not still cover as if you were full-time. You avoid abrupt life change while getting a four-day weekend every week. If your company values you they will probably be more open to this arrangement than you may think.

</comment><comment><USER98> He sounds like an entrepreneur that wants to do his own thing, and he's using his anger at the industry for motivation. We all find our power somewhere.

</comment><comment><USER99> This type of misery is common.

The author decided he needs a change in his life, there is no arguing there.

But what makes the author so confident that quitting the job is the solution?

</comment><comment><USER64> This is precisely why Google had 20% time and why other companies have hackathons; that ramp-up time to get anything done is definitely required.

It's also burnout; the dude is sick of working on something that he doesn't particularly care about anymore. I bet if Yelp offered him a few days a week or 1 week per month to work on whatever he wants he'd be happier and wouldn't be burnt out.

<comment><USER100> I worked at Yelp for five years and was there when Yelp engineering first started doing "hackathons". People worked on some interesting stuff during them, but very little of it was meant to be production ready and useful (vs toy) projects saw little exposure outside of the company or the engineering department itself. Lots of things were meant only to scratch our own developer itches or impress co-workers, like internal engineering tools (which have their own value). I attribute this to "yelp the public facing product/service" having a master plan that is determined outside of engineering proper—nothing wrong with that, it is what it is. So if you had some cool idea to, for example, revamp the UI/UX of the business photos page, you could work on that during the hackathon, but it was only a hackathon project. This encouraged people to work on throwaway toy projects or experiment with deep backend stuff during hackathons to blow off steam vs something that someone could point to publicly. Not to say that no hackathon projects ever were exposed non- internally, but it was a _very_ small percentage. Some people used hackathons to catch up on regular work while many other people were working on hackathon projects. Maybe it's changed since I left.

"Hackathons" are not a silver bullet solution to trying to get people to have ownership over the solutions to problems they are solving for themselves, their department, and the company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER101> Find some group of people and cause bound by something other than simply being coworkers working on bubble-ish webapps or boring corporate software. For me, this is FreeBSD -- the problems are interesting personally from running my laptop to scaling the Internet in my day job, the work and skills will transcend any one job I ever have, and the people are the best I've ever met.

</comment><comment><USER102> If you build some tech product/service to earn money you are in fact not quitting tech industry! You are tech industry - eventually. ;-)

</comment><comment><USER103> The article makes a number of points that resonate with me and were the initial reason I felt obligated to start my own company:

* Corporate and management issues / misalignments * Uninteresting work content (e.g. fixing old bugs all the time) * Time and energy drain

I've been reading the two books about Google culture recently (Work Rules! and How Google Works), both of which cover similar issues and (ostensibly) how Google has responded to them. I understand there must be a huge pool of people out there in similar situations, many of whom are the best of the best. It's also clear that a few large companies are trying to figure out how to appeal to this group, while most large companies continue to be consumed by egos and the day to day grind and fail at this.

The most important benefit to having my own company has (by far) been the time management. I feel like I could have the proper amount of time and energy to devote to a child or two, which would have been unthinkable in previous jobs (mine were in consulting, but the same seems to apply to tech).

However, I've also learned a lot about communication from my company, especially when it comes to things that would cause unhappiness or conflict (not agreeing with management, setting boundaries around time, etc). The biggest leap was realizing that if people react negatively, 1) you don't want to work with these people, and 2) there are a ton of people out there who want to work with you because of this. I hope the OP is able to find people who share his/her extremely positive traits to work with.

(Incidentally, I've learned a lot about communication from the poly community as well, and I'm not at all surprised to read OP's about section after reading this post.)

</comment><comment><USER104> Insist on reasonable work hours. Argue that it will maintain your performance long-term. Say it like you mean it, and don't settle for less. Be ready to leave if you must, in fact, and _do not_ let the glitz/glamour of a well-known brand/company allow them to tread on you.

</comment><comment><USER105> Congrats to the author, if this refills the battery good for him. That being said, be thankful you didn't have to get up at the crack of dawn and commute like most of the world. Working at home only seems like a burden to those who don't have to commute.

</comment><comment><USER106> I wish you the best! At 52 I have cashed out the stock options and paid the mortgage twice. In the end 3 weeks or so is the most I can go without either wanting to help someone build a company or wanting to build a company. There is work life after burnout!

</comment><comment><USER107> Not to knock on the industry at large but the day I gave up wanting to program "services" (for the lack of a better term -- things that work the data to produce an outcome that although convenient, is not a necessity of our lives) and apply my skills to tangible, real world problems I became immensely happier in my day to day. I went from loathing the next day of work and counting the clock hours until I ran out the door to happily thinking of the problems, looking forward to the next project. I think a lot of people in software could benefit from taking the time to take a hands-on hobby of sorts where you create physical output, a useful craft with purpose. There's a chunk of our lives that logic and algorithms cannot fulfill in the same way that a craft can.

It seems like hokum re-reading that last paragraph. I wish I was better with words to portray what I'm trying to get across but its just something that's been on my mind in the last month or so. I feel into another slump similar to what our article's author describes. You get caught in a cycle of "I'm tired because tomorrow will suck" and don't use that time to regenerate and recover. When my car hit the tipping point last week and I was forced to get my hands dirty it broke that cycle. I came out from under with a true sense of accomplishment; beaming with pride for what I had done and suddenly Monday's problems were on the wayside.

To swing back to what I tried saying originally though; having a job where I produce factories, networks, systems that clients look, touch, and interact with just gives the same feeling of pride that I never achieved when building services for IPTV products, billing software features or other data applications. I'm certain there's a whole host of people that drool at some of those domains but if that's not your "thing" then you'll never be happy. I wasn't, the author likely wasn't but that's not to say she can't find happiness anywhere in tech. And to believe that leaving it all behind for a mystery won't solve those same problems that put her where she is now. "The Grass is Always Greener" will wane and she'll miss being among peers and those who she can share her problems with. A girlfriend in the medical industry just can't converse on the same level as other tech's can, its where I reach out to coworkers, peers, friends to blow off some steam. I wish her the best, I just hope she figures out where the true problems lie or where her true calling is before she regrets distancing herself from an industry that she has obvious passion for.

</comment><comment><USER108> Instead of quitting the tech industry, why not move to an existing smaller company, whose size gives you more freedom?

Wait and sit for a profitable idea doesn't look like a very good idea.

I'd go to AngelList and join an existing startup, rather than going on my own.

</comment><comment><USER109> "Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat." ~some smart person

</comment><comment><USER110> so he did not quit the tech industry at all but decided to create his own business :-)

<comment><USER111> Worst. Plan. Evar.

</comment></comment><comment><USER112> I definitely don't agree with everyone screaming "burnout" in this thread. I feel exactly the same and I'm far from burnt out. Some people are just not fit to be employed.

</comment><comment><USER113> I've been in it 43 years! Still as fun as when I started.

</comment><comment><USER114> First world problems.

<comment><USER115> How are he rant on a full stomach with a roof over his head.

</comment></comment><comment><USER116> >I don't intend to look for another tech job.

> Or another job at all.

To me, this is a love letter to tech. What other industry pays you near-FU money for uncreative grunge work?

</comment><comment><USER117> Poor Eevee. :(

I hope he finds happiness from his new path in life. Goodness knows he wasn't finding it in his previous one.

</comment><comment><USER118> Anyone know what's with the black "x" characters which appear through the article?

<comment><USER119> I saw some emoticons interspersed, I guess your setup can't show them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER120> .. hang on let me write a blog post about how i'm quiting the tech industry

</comment><comment><USER121> Either you work for the man, or you are the man. The choice is up to you.

</comment><comment><USER122> > I've worked remotely my entire career

Perhaps some of the angst stems from this bias. I wonder how well Yelp handles remote workers.

<comment><USER123> I either work remotely, or work in my home workshop (which is open to the public, if anyone needs to borrow a laser cutter for an hour).

Most of "the basics" in my life are automated; bills are on autopay, I send my stuff to the post office by drone truck, and so on.

It can be very alienating - there are days that I don't see a human being or speak a word with anyone.

The solution is to make sure you actually try to be around people on weekends.... and you MAKE yourself do it. It's way too easy to turtle up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER124> Yep, job burnout is the pits.

</comment><comment><USER125> This resonates with me.

</comment><comment><USER126> boo friken hoo!

<comment><USER80> Very constructive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> i find it impressive he resisted using the word 'fuck' until about 2/3rds of the way through. he may have a future yet.

the irony of course, is that anger and humiliation and frustration drive you to start your own company, but if you succeed, you will basically deal with new instantiations of the same old problems, except this time it's all your fault and they still need to be fixed. now 'that guy' is you. congratulations! you've made it.

technical debt, constant stressful fire-drills, ludicrously overloaded schedules, demands on your time and patience, inane re-inventions of established technology, etc. plus a whole host of others ('unknown unknowns') that you can't even begin to fathom as someone who was paid handsomely to care only about the technical problems in an organization.

but, of course, you will be king shit sittin' pretty at the top of the whole shit-heap by then, and see the entire heap of shit from a new, exciting, gilded perspective. and this is, in and of itself, worth something. in fact, it can be worth a shitload.

they don't call it an exit strategy for nothing!

</comment><comment><USER128> I did that. I stopped working full time. I started working on my own projects, which I have like 10 of, all very different. 3 of the ones I launched are already making okay money, paying half of our rent.

The mental change is tremendous - I don't have a manager harassing me, I do everything on my own schedule. I can switch between whatever projects I want, whenever I want.

The only thing that I miss is working with the people who are smarter than me.

<comment><USER129> IOW, you switched your dependencies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER130> words of advice to the author of this piece: Just take a vacation and go somewhere new and interesting and then unwind for some time and after you clear up your mind, re-evaluate your decision and see what's good for you going forward and I'm sure you will manage to sort all of this out.

Best wishes

</comment><comment><USER131> This wouldn't be happening if we had a true estate tax in this country, and if we didn't allow corporations to sit on piles of money while laborers slave away.

We in the USA are wealthy enough as a society that we all could thrive on 15 or so hours of work a week, if we didn't have to subsidize the fortunes of billionaires.

<comment><USER132> HN is turning into Slashdot. Great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER133> [http://granitegrok.com/wp- content/uploads/morpheus.jpg](http://granitegrok.com/wp- content/uploads/morpheus.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER134> well written post!

</comment><comment><USER135> Eevee's Patreon: [https://www.patreon.com/eevee](https://www.patreon.com/eevee)

</comment><comment><USER136> Fuck this guy and his narcissistic post. So you retired early, the hell do I care? Nothing interesting here beyond a guy with the financial means to leave, and who left. Only a narcissist would think this was something profound.

<comment><USER137> Guy complains that working for massive company X isn't very motivational, decides to leave. This isn't something unique it happens in every industry out there, especially tech. I don't get why this post has the amount of votes it has.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What combination of tools do you use to track your day? - <AUTHOR> I know this is not a novel question. But I am thinking of tools that collect data that can be exported and combined together to give a complete picture of how my day was spent. Are there any set of tools you use that are more powerful as a combination than individually? <comment><USER3> I'm not quite sure what you want to track but here are a few I use:

\- Google Docs spreadsheet to track all aspects finances \- Google Docs spreadsheet to track work projects using GTD \- Pedometer+ (iPhone) to track steps (target 10,000 a day)

Perhaps you were more interested in time-tracking tools? I know that two- thirds of my time is typically working and sleeping. I don't do social media so no time wasted there.

There is an enormous list of time-tracking software (with ratings) here:

[https://www.capterra.com/time-tracking- software/](https://www.capterra.com/time-tracking-software/)

The only one I have heard of is RescueTime, but there are tons more.

It's the things you can't predict that can mess up your schedule though - <USER2> home from a garden party Saturday and ended up having to deal with a swarm of bees that decided to come down our chimney...

</comment><comment><USER4> org-mode is extremely versatile and can be used to organize any kind of data. It has time-tracking support built-in, which I use to track my time at work (methodology inspired by [http://doc.norang.ca/org- mode.html#Clocking](http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html#Clocking)). Any other type of data you are tracking (e.g. step counter) you could export to org tables. Granted, it would require a bit of customization to generate custom reports/summaries for these tables, but its customizability is exactly what makes it so powerful.

</comment><comment><USER5> I built a prototype of something like you describe, and felt that it really helped keep myself accountable. Happy to add you as a test user when I re- deploy it! Email is in my profile.</comment>