Releasing early and often... how it failed for us - <AUTHOR> http://behindtheclock.timmyontime.com/post/85810187/releasing-early-and-often-how-it-failed-for-us

<comment><USER2> Not much substance in that post.

However you need to control events and not let events control you. If you react to every tiny issue reported you will end up in a cycle of release- issue-fix-release.

If the issue is only affecting a minority of customers and it's not critical for security - park it - and keep on with the feature plan.

You can't please all the people all the time.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm testing small posts. Not everybody has the time to read a long post with infinite details about a story when the conclusion is "you lose the grand scheme of what you're building" and that you sometimes should "wipe your entire work".

<comment><USER3> Tip: keep the long posts, with a good hook at the beginning and a summary at the end with key points highlighted at the end.

Example: [http://danieltenner.com/posts/0005-starting-up-with-a- friend...](http://danieltenner.com/posts/0005-starting-up-with-a-friend.html) (still on the HN front page)

<comment><AUTHOR> I really like your post, I commented it [http://danieltenner.com/posts/0005-starting-up-with-a- friend...](http://danieltenner.com/posts/0005-starting-up-with-a- friend.html#comment-7098609) . But even then, I'd say that I read 80% of it (most time, I read less than 50%). I just said to myself why not cut the post to have a shorter one that people will enjoy a moment. Turned out I was (maybe) wrong. I'll definitely give it another try though...

<comment><USER3> As a counter-example, I tried to be brief as well in another post on there (<http://danieltenner.com/posts/0003-impossible-is-a-step.html>) and that one didn't work out very well - when I asked people why they didn't like it, they said it was too short and lacked substance/examples.

I'm a big fan of keeping things as brief as possible, but from what I can tell it's not the best format for the web. I've only seen it work for people who have huge followings already (e.g. seth godin). Even there, most of their posts don't take off...

I could be wrong of course! Good luck to both of us :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> This seems like a poor argument against "release early and release often". First of all it's not all that coherent or structured, and secondly it's very lacking in actual discussion of what went wrong.

It sounds like the author's team got stuck in a bug-fixing cycle where each release caused enough new bugs to fill the next iteration with bug-fixing work. Were they using automated testing? Was the development team good enough to adapt to a rapid release cycle (not everyone can do it)? Too many unknowns to comment on the author's experience...

It's also worth pointing out that nobody said a rapid release cycle was easy. It's hard to keep the vision and the details in mind. As they say, "Programming is hard, let's go shopping".

</comment><comment><USER4> I frequently hear these two arguments against releasing early and often: 1) You will have a primitive product with bugs which means that the people who see it will be turned off and not want to come back later. 2) The argument made in this post, namely that you loose focus and end up putting out fires and implementing feature requests all the time.

As for #1, I just think that it matters very much because the group of early adopters is going to be very small anyway, unless you do some hyped launch like Cuil. Therefore, loosing a couple of users for good can be a small price to pay for the highly valuable feedback that you are bound to get.

#2 is something you have to be concerned about but that doesn't mean that you have to let it control you. And once something is launched, you are bound to get feedback anyway, so it really only applies to the "release early"-part.

</comment><comment><USER5> Looks self-referential. I think this blog post was released too early, before it got any content.

<comment><AUTHOR> I laughed, I must admit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Releasing early did not fail for you - it showed you what was wrong with your product. If you had done all those tweaks in silence and expected to come out to a great roar of approval, how do you think you would have felt when faced with a great wall of don't-care?

You released, you saw what the problems were, and now you hopefully have learned from the experience, and can go in a better direction. Just be sure to evolve, do not scratch and try to start afresh.

<comment><USER7> Ehm, no. Releasing early did fail for us. The idea was not mature enough, the "puzzle" wasn't completed but we started developement and released too early.

<comment><USER6> Did you ever consider that the idea was wrong? And that the 'fail' was just telling you that the idea was wrong?

<comment><USER7> Yeah we did consider that. But we arrived at the conclusion that the idea was still great.

<comment><USER6> Do you have numbers to prove that your idea is great? Having been launched for a while, it should be pretty easy to rearrange traffic data in such a way that it gives you a benchmark as to how relevant your idea is to people.

(Forgive me, but I like using numbers as a basis for decisions)

<comment><USER7> We know that idea is relevant because 1) WE find it relevant and 2) by the initial comments we are receiving from our users. Most are in love with the idea... but after that they feel let down. The problem is how the idea is executed, not the idea itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> For release early, release often, you need to know where you are going.

It works especially well if you have a model to copy: Microsoft Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 was based on the Macintosh. Linux was based on Unix.

Or you can have clear vision that you are working towards - in this case, the model you are copying is imaginary.

I guess that's the "Grand Scheme" the article is talking about. You do have to have a way to keep that in mind, and build towards it. You can do this by giving selective attention to the feedback (bug reports, feature requests, complaints) that leads _towards_ your Grand Scheme. This also builds a user base that is aligned with what you want to do (by encouraging those people, and turning off the others). Then your user base supports your vision, instead of undermining it.

You are the captain.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I wrote the extented version : <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=513655>

</comment><comment><USER7> Like Dan, I think that releasing early and often is a bit overrated as a concept. It was started by 37signals and people have a tendency to read their stuff like it was their bible.

There is definitely a danger to release early and often : You have less time to think about your core idea. If you embark yourself in a quick release cycle without precautions, you have greater chances to forget about the product as a whole and its evolution. This is what happened to us. Now you could say that it happened to us just because we are stupid, but it would be more productive to start cogitating on the implications of bold statements like "Release early and often".

<comment><USER9> It was not started by 37signals, it was popularized by them. The practice has been around much longer as part of extreme programming, as have most of the things they preach.

The 37signals guys are great marketers but about the only thing unique to come from them, the only practice they actually created, was convention over configuration as a core principle. Everything else they just picked up and repackaged from existing extreme programming principles.

<comment><USER10> It's way earlier than Extreme Programming. Believe it or not, it was once considered a part of Object Oriented Programming. Here's an article from IBM Systems Journal 1993 where I first learned the idea of ship early and often:

<http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/sj/323/ibmsj3203E.pdf> [PDF]

<comment><USER11> I'll add that "Extreme Programming" and other forms of Agile is mostly a buzzword/re-branding to wrapper quite a few "best practices" from the OOP world. Which is appropriate since so many of the early agile manifesto folk were the same ones that pioneered the OOP best practices.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I liked the 'timmyevolved' page.. the music was good and it built up mystique. However, I'm going to forget all about it in another hour or so..you'd better get some attention when you relaunch, and even put out a couple more announcements along the way hinting at what the new site might do.

(then again, it might not matter since I never knew what the old site did)

<comment><USER7> Glad you liked the trailer and thanks for your insights.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> "The often part of release early and often, went really bad. Once that TimmyOnTime was out, we had feature requests, bugs and other critics."

I don't see how this is ad. That shit is DATA. Data informs your future decisions. You're free to incorporate it or ignore it at your will.

Why, you can even act as if the "release" never happened in the first place.

</comment><comment><USER14> I think it's a great idea to occasionally step back, throw away some of your work, and start over. That being said, it's hard to say where they draw this lesson. This post is thin on the details of "how it failed for us".

</comment><comment><USER15> Another example of another form of procrastination.

Release often is about getting exited with your product, I about bugfixing as exiting.

</comment><comment><USER16> what is timmyontime?

<comment><USER17> Time tracking over IM bots. I really like the idea (and the nonexistant signup process!), gonna see how well the implementation works over the next days. <http://www.timmyontime.com>

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> you need to separate the principle from the dogma...

apparently, you released too early, too often</comment>


Investigatory Powers Act goes into force, putting UK citizens under intense... - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/investigatory-powers-act-bill-snoopers-charter-spying-law-powers-theresa-may-a7503616.html <comment><USER2> and France too. The article just skims the surface so here some background (see conclusions for UK and France)

[http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/treatybodyexternal/Sess...](http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/treatybodyexternal/SessionDetails1.aspx?SessionID=899&Lang=en)</comment>


Why I started a free, on-demand curation service for Netflix - <AUTHOR> I started Sense (www.wemakesense.co) because I increasingly became concerned with how Netflix was handling the recommendation portion of their product.  I saw an ever-consuming reliance on data and computers that strayed away from what recommendations should be about.  I wanted to make recommendations more human.
Below are some quick, short examples of the issues that Sense is working on correcting:
- Your recommended 'Top Picks' is a list of 25+ movies
This is a subset list of a list.  You're already swarmed with movie choices in Netflix.  You still have to decide between a ton of options here
- 1-5 star rating systems and predictors miss the point of recommendations
The goal of a recommender is to give you a movie that you'll enjoy spending your time in.  It's not to give you something you'll like '4.223' or '3.4445' stars out of 5.  The essence of a recommender is lost in this detail
- Recommending fully done by computers.  No personal touch.
Human curation can be infused into the system without total overhaul
- You can love Fantasia without being a kid
After watching Fantasia, you'll be presented with suggestions to watch children's movies next.  This is because of a reliance on a 'kids' tag to the movie.  But Netflix knows more about me than that.  They know I am a male in my 20s.  I can appreciate Fantasia for other reasons
- 'Top Picks' and 'More like this' are a scatterplot of all kinds of different movies
This does little to center in on the things people enjoy within a specific movie.  Instead it feels like darts being thrown at a dartboard <comment><USER2> Unless and until we can recommend things that aren't available via netflix, this invention remains another crowdsourced, yet ironically still proprietary, commercial product. Nexflix already had my viewing habits, my daily routine, and my money. They shouldn't need my help too.

Netflix needs/wants in-house recommendations because any external recommendation service risks drawing attention to their limited offerings. Netflix has around 20,000 titles for Americans, closer to 6000 it seems for canadians. That's only slightly better than a well-stocked blockbuster video. Nearly every old show recommended to me by friends, by actual flesh-and-blood people, isn't there.

Also, What happens to recommendations once the shows they recommend are dropped from the netflix lineup?

<comment><AUTHOR> We have a system for knowing what is on and isn't on Netflix at any given time - We only give you picks that are currently on the platform (in US)

<comment><USER2> Ah. So this is totally useless for we canadians. Every time a Canadian hits "this content isn't available in your region" a pirate is born.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Clickable: [http://www.wemakesense.co/](http://www.wemakesense.co/)

</comment><comment><USER4> I agree recommendation engines, as a rule, are pretty bad. Would be interested to hear more about you approach this problem. Does your approach scale? What's the eventual business model if it's free? Paid placement?

</comment><comment><USER5> The internal process that a human (you in this instance) is doing can be process mapped out, engineered and then implemented as a automated software solution.

You have just got more criteria then Netflix implementation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Key part of the criteria: limiting what is considered appropriate enough to be pushed to users as a recommendation

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm just using it as we speak, pretty cool, can't wait for the movie suggestions. I wish such service exists for Netflix.ca though. Also great idea for books reco ;)

<comment><USER7> I'm actually working on a service just like this, but not specifically for Netflix. Since a lot of households nowadays have multiple streaming services and I think we should't forget that people still actually buy/rent movies online a service that not only provides the consumer with great movie exploring possibilities but also the possibility to actually see where they can stream, buy or rent the movie.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you find new podcasts? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Search iTunes for interesting keywords.

Recommendations from friends.

Podcasting guests in the podcast i listen to.

Speakers from conferences who has podcasts</comment>


Ask HN: Good place to look at a CRM database schema? - <AUTHOR> Where is a good resource for a standard relational database schema for CRM's? For example, software like:<p>www.crexi.com www.apto.com <comment><USER2> Don't forget to add 'Ask HN:' in front of your questions. That will give you a bit more exposure (readers).

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Ah forgot the title. Thank you.</comment>


Using and Abusing Netlify's Free Tier - <AUTHOR> https://dev.to/mcapodici/using-and-abusing-netlify-s-free-tier-41am <comment><USER2> This is a pure clickbait article. Why bother submitting crap like this?

<comment><USER3> There's nothing in the article about abusing Netlify. I would not call it crap though. If you don't know about static sites and CDN, it could get you interested in checking them out. The article does not go into details unfortunately.</comment></comment>


Pixel 3 call quality issues - <AUTHOR> https://groups.google.com/a/googleproductforums.com/d/msgid/phone-by-google/dc51b6d0-258f-4277-ad50-4ede77db3326%40googleproductforums.com <comment><USER2> I got a pixel 3 primarily because of the camera. I'm the sort that used to lug around a dslr, then a Fuji x100 and eventually a Pixel. The Pixel 1 was the phone where for everyday applications, it was good enough and in such a small form factor it outweighed the better results of a heavier dedicated camera.

Having said that, both my Pixel 1 and 2 died within 6 months of purchase. Pixel 1 was purchased in Jan 2017. Had the infamous microphone stopped working bug in March 2017. Google replaced with a refurb which lasted 1 year until the microphone and headphone jack stopped working. Got a pixel 2 which also had quality control issues where several months later it was stuck on a perma startup booting loop. I made the mistake of buying the pixel 2 online so I couldn't get it covered under warranty.

And here we are with the Pixel 3. As amazing as night sight is, it annoys me to hell that my girlfriends iphone 6s is still going strong after years. Pixels really are not that durable which sucks because the best part of a pixel is still miles and leaps above the competition.

EDIT: The newer Iphone cameras are getting better. If the Pixel 3 also dies within a few months, then I'm going to Apple because I can't justify buying a flagship phone every year.

<comment><USER3> > If the Pixel 3 also dies within a few months, then I'm going to Apple

build quality issues are not widespread to the whole android ecosystem. apple kind of get the crown as long term phones because software support and hardware warranties, but it's not as to say that there are no android phones that can match them in half life.

<comment><USER4> True though that may be, I think some people only want to buy the flagships because they can be assured of a certain level of quality (no shovelware, to start with) without having to go through hoops installing/uninstalling this or that, or potentially void the warranty with custom ROMs.

For those people, the alternative Android offerings just aren't on the radar.

<comment><USER5> And last but not least: timely security upgrades (many years into the future)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Pixel 3 is an expensive piece of crap. Call quality sucks, battery life is terrible. And the USB-C will for stretches fail to recognize the provided earphones as an audio device (it reports that it's charging them).

There are somehow 2 or 3 different news modes - and I cannot figure out how to get to the one I want. The Google assistant frequently enables accidentally and records me talking. The phone regularly harasses me and asks me to give reviews and answer questions for them. Many of the news suggestions it gives me are tweets and Reddit threads; I don't tweet or use Reddit. There are a bunch of apps which can't be uninstalled that I don't use or have any need for. No matter how often I turn off the wifi, it decides it wants to turn it back on.

This is probably my last Google phone. Garbage.

<comment><USER7> interesting. I have a pixel 3 and have experienced literally none of your issues and am really enjoying its lack of 3rd party software unlike my old samsung galaxy. In fact, this device has spurred me to fully embrace the google ecosystem

<comment><USER8> Ditto. I've the Pixel 3 XL, my first pixel phone and I love it. Fast, good battery, gorgeous display and monthly updates with none of the Samsung bloatware forcibly installed. I used to be an iPhone user years ago (owned 4 of them) and I'd never go back. In fact my wife has an XS and I wouldn't swap mine for hers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This remembers me of my Blackberry Passport, loved the format, loved the keys, loved the 1:1 screen but I couldn't make calls or be called. One brand new is lying around here somewhere.

<comment><USER10> Minor correction: In English, we have two different words around remembering:

\- "remember": This is when you think of a memory all by yourself, like "I remember when I was a child" or "I remember that I have to buy some milk"

\- "remind": This is when something else makes you think of a memory, like "this lullaby reminds me of when I was a child" or "my phone reminded me that I have to buy milk"

In this case you want "remind".

(Thought I'd let you know because I know in some languages, these are one word)

<comment><USER9> Thanks you're right. And I rather think this is a major mistake, not a minor one.

After reading the comment before posting I would probably have used 'reminds' but when I just write down my thoughts they often come out the wrong way and then I forget to read the comment again before posting (which I always should do!) :-)

So thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> <rendering the phone useless for it's primary function (calling people).

Calling people is no longer the primary function of a °phone".

<comment><USER12> That was Apple's argument in their case against Qualcomm's licensing costs.

I always thought that was a weak stance.

An iPhone without calls is just an iPod touch, which clearly doesn't have the appeal of an iPhone.

<comment><USER13> I call about 2 hours a week and still manage to use my phone more than 20 hours a week. Is calling still the primary function of my "phone"?

We just call it phone because that's what we attached a computer to, but it's more like a pocket computer with LTE modem for most people. I'd call it Pocket PC if I could!

<comment><USER14> Microsoft's trademark on Pocket PC is most likely dead, as it hasn't been seen in commerce in a long time, so you can probably call whatever you like a Pocket PC

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've had issues regarding Bluetooth and my car since Android Oreo was released... I switched to the P beta and about the last two weeks before the P release, no issues... P released, issues returned.

Issue was present on Nexus 6P, Pixel 1 XL, Pixel 2 XL ... my next phone may just be an iThingy at this rate, after using Android since the original G1 was released. I can't help but feel that Google's software QC and testing is just much more limited than it should be.

</comment><comment><USER16> Google Pixel 3 has serious customer service quality issues.

The problem here isn't the call quality, it is the customer service. This is typical Google. They might have many boffins working for them but they do not put the customer first and they don't appreciate the benefits of a customer first attitude. For a product that costs $$$ they should do it right, if they promptly dealt with customer service problems with real staff instead of outsourced 'ninjas' then they could turn customers with problems into their greatest brand ambassadors. In so doing they could convert a small army of people who prefer Apple but have ended up giving Android a spin into brand converts, spreading by word of mouth 'how much better Google is' and converting die-hard Apple fans into Google fans. But Google just don't get it. It is also cheaper to do customer service correctly than it is to have people left out there exasperated with the service they get.

Right now my sister is having trouble with their landline phone. They are cussing their broadband provider and blaming them. They have a retro 1980's phone that has 'always worked' but, after a house move and with a small child around, with unknown wiring in the new house it has to be the broadband provider that are to blame. Chances are that there is something wrong with the phone or the cabling inside their house. They are not willing to try a different handset (one with neat features like caller ID and no cord), they want to persist with the retro phone because it looks good, like the ones they grey up with. Sweet. They too have gone online and decided that the broadband provider are useless and that their services are off the mark. Yet there are many people with the same provider who have phones that work remarkably well, but, they have decided otherwise. Again, as per the Google problem here, there is a perceptual issue due to the poor quality of customer service.

Getting back to the Pixel 3, I had a phone with some stupid wallet style phone case that made it so I couldn't be heard on the phone. I was able to work out that it was the case and not the phone (or an app) but I too was grumbling about the quality of the phone before I realised that the problem was quite simple and had everything to do with the case and not the phone.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pixel 3 problems were due to obvious but not so obvious problems in the majority of the cases and not some fundamental quality problem with the device. However, Google don't pick up the phone and talk to customers, they leave them to gang together on forums and make all their problems Google's fault, which it is. When will Google learn that in hardware the customer comes first and that customer service has to be done properly? It is such a shame as Google do put the customer first with their search and other software services, plus their design principles do a good job of embodying that.

<comment><USER17> You can get chat and phone support with Pixel and with Google Fi;not clear if you and other commenters know that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> My wife had call quality issues. Google Fi deactivated her phone and we reactivated. It seems better with a few test calls, but we'll find out with weekday use.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> It seems like there is a software bug - likely related to noise canceling Mic in the phone app.

<comment><USER18> it has similar issues with audio quality during video recording. i think they implemented some fancy noise cancelling/voice boosting in a chip thinking people would love it and now they can't fix it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Alot of Pixel anger here. I have a 3 and love it. That is all.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is their a lemon law for smartphones?

</comment><comment><USER21> WTF google. If the flagship phone is so bad, how the hell do they expect to compete effectively with Apple?

</comment><comment><USER22> People use smartphones to make telephone calls? How does that work?

<comment><USER23> Apparently, they do. How quaint.

<comment><USER4> You may mock, but making good old fashioned phone calls is still the standard is business.

Do you really think every businessperson from every business on the planet is adding each other to each others' Skype lists or Facebook friends?

<comment><USER24> > Do you really think every businessperson from every business on the planet > is adding each other to each others' Skype lists or Facebook friends?

No I think they email each other.

<comment><USER4> > No I think they email each other.

You never thought that some information needs to be received or conveyed in real time for efficiency?

I only check my email once an hour, maybe every couple of hours. If people need to get a hold of me instantly, they call… like normal people.

Even if I did check my mails more frequently, there's no guarantee that (A) I'm going to bother reading/responding to _every_ mail I receive, nor that (B) I will reply immediately.

Does everybody here really live in such a techno-bubble that they fail to see how the real world works?

<comment><USER25> > If people need to get a hold of me instantly, they call… like normal people.

Just as any communication mean phone calls are abused to no end. 95% of the calls I receive are spam, the rest are from VIP registered numbers (family, school etc.).

It's anecdotal but I see more and more people just filtering all non VIP calls and checking every now and then voice mail or messages.

I'm not sure people heavily relying on phone are still "normal" people.

<comment><USER4> > Phone calls are abused to no end

So are emails, but we don't say people have stopped using emails for certain types of communication.

> [...] I see more and more people just filtering all non VIP calls and > checking every now and then voice mail or messages. I'm not sure people > heavily relying on phone are still "normal" people.

Then I really think you need to look outside your usual circles, especially if there's a lot of technologically-inclined involved, because I'm not sure "normal" people even know what VIP numbers are, let alone know to filter them, nor that filtering is even possible.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Tufte course worth the cost? - <AUTHOR> http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/courses<p>$380 for a one day course ($200 for full-time students) and all four books are included. That doesn't seem like such a bad deal. Can anyone comment on previous versions? <comment><USER2> I went and saw him in Minneapolis in June and I was incredibly disappointed. His books have good info, but I thought is talk was bad. He talked a lot about presentations which I wasn't really there for, I wanted info on how to make my informational graphics better. It seemed like the majority of the people there where managerial types, not developers/designers so I think he skewed his topic for their needs.

He also did a poor job at backing up his points, thats not to say they weren't true, its just that he would make an assertion and count on dogma to validate it. It was too cargo-cult for me. The other three developers/BA's I went with thought the same. (Especially when Tufte started showing pictures of his bizarre metal sculptures that had nothing to do with visualizing information).

If you're a developer and you want specific details in how to make your applications better, I'd highly recommend Ben Fry's Dissertation. (<http://benfry.com/phd/>) Its 150 pages, but the text is pretty light and he is very detailed in how you can use color, space, animation, spatial relations to make your data easier to understand. The dissertation doesn't fail to impress, plus its 100% free. Ben is the guy behind the Processing language, which is essentially a DSL for info graphics, really cool stuff, even if it is a wrapper around Java.

</comment><comment><USER3> The course is definitely worth it. Tufte is a great speaker, and watching how he presents ideas, evidence, etc is a valuable experience. The books are supplemental to the talk, and they end up feeling more like development materials to be explored in greater depth... highly recommended.

</comment><comment><USER4> I am taking it in October in DC. My manager took it and loved it.

I saw Tufte's books on her desk and started ranting on about how much I love his work and asked if she was a `fan' as well. Turns out she just took the course because other management were too, but she loved it as well.

</comment><comment><USER5> I attended the Tufte course a few years ago and it was fantastic. I enumerate the following reasons:

1\. The 4 books alone are worth almost $200

2\. He's one of the most engaging speakers you'll ever see: you're ability to present will improve.

3\. Book porn. He brings antique copies of Galileo and shows them off.

4\. Inspiration.

</comment><comment><USER6> My wife took this course and adored it.

I just bought all the books, so I don't know. The books are very nice, as you may already know. I will say that owning all the books already makes me more hesitant to take the course, though by all accounts Tufte is a great presenter.</comment>


Start-up idea: Why event search needs to be fixed - <AUTHOR> http://rbhandari.com/2012/05/22/start-up-idea-fix-event-search/

<comment><USER2> So true. Google Calendar should rule this space, and it drives me nuts that deciding to attend an event usually involves multiple rounds of copying/pasting and manual editing when the amount of data involved is so trivial and well-specified.

On a broader level, there's a huge disruptive opportunity for a time-based search engine. _When_ things happen is often very, very important, but gathering, collating, and connecting this information is painfully difficult. Take a simple example: Federal Reserve Board meetings. There are of tremendous importance to economic analysts, and worth knowing about for any politically aware person. Here is the calendar page: [http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomccalendars.h...](http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomccalendars.htm) There isn't even an RSS feed. On a more general level, there isn't any obvious tool for browsing recurring events to look at their periodicity. To stick with the economic context (because it's one that matters rather a lot), consider the quarterly earnings and filings of public companies. As someone who likes DSP, it's perplexing to me that I can't add and subtract periodic data about companies' year-on-year performance as I would other sorts of periodic signal to explore the contributing factors.

I thought that this is where Google Trends/insights for search would go. Look at this search: [http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=toys%2C%20mattel%2C...](http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=toys%2C%20mattel%2C%20hasbro&cmpt=q) You can see a big spike in searches for 'toys' at the end of every year, which is obviously related to Christmas. You would think that with so much lovely cyclical data, the obvious thing to do would be treat it as a signal, but no.

At first blush, events and trends seem like two different and unrelated things, but it's a fact that almost the entire human race uses the same calendar and clock system, so that both one-off and recurring temporal data both involve fairly straightforward cardinality problems. IT _infuriates_ me that I can search out particular word combinations from billions of documents and get results within a few seconds, but that trying to locate things in time feels like it has hardly advanced at all in over a decade.

<comment><AUTHOR> Completely agree with you that there's an opportunity for a time based search engine and maybe some standardization so that events can be read by that search engine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Already done: Just go to <http://www.wherevent.com/> and check your city.

Simple idea but very powerful—you don't need more. They have to put on some filters and integrate some more streams (ie. meetup.com) and then it's perfect.

</comment><comment><USER4> "Large market There are 11M searches per month for events in Google in the US alone (25M worldwide)"

Just because there's 11m searches doesn't mean Google will give you those 11m searchers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, completely agree. But I just use this as an indication of the number of people in search of something as opposed to say that if you create it you'll be #1 ranked for each event. Many people will go directly to ticketmaster or meetup as well - those people are part of the market.</comment></comment>


PM of Canada Wants to Bring in a Basic Annual Income to Replace Social Insurance [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://convention.liberal.ca/files/2014/02/Priority-Resolutions-EN.pdf <comment><USER2> Is it actually the PM that's suggesting this? What's the significance of the group named at the bottom right of each proposal?

All the proposals I skimmed through seemed too sensible to be official government policies, even allowing for Canada being better than most.

<comment><AUTHOR> The document is the 'goals' set by the Liberal party to be achieved federally if they came to power (which they did!). Presumably suggested by the delegates of the provinces mentioned in 2014. There is no guarantee that the Liberals will actually meet these goals, however, they do have a straight-up majority to do whatever they want. So they have less excuses.</comment></comment>


2018 Design Tools Survey Results - <AUTHOR> http://uxtools.co/survey-2018 <comment><USER2> Maker here. Thanks for posting! Let me know if you have any questions about the methods or insights here, or if you just want to talk shop .</comment>


The Subtle Design Features That Make Cities Feel More Hostile - <AUTHOR> http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-subtle-design-features-that-make-cities-feel-more-hostile <comment><USER2> "But where is the line drawn between hostile architecture that seeks to favor one class of people over another, and practical urban planning that aims to keep all people safe?"

Not sure it's a question of favoring one class over another as it is intended uses.</comment>


Ask HN: How did you move from a salaried job to contracting? - <AUTHOR> Reading the poll about salaries in London (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5804134) it seems  a lot of people working permanent jobs are getting shafted. Contract rates seem to be quite good though, so I'm wondering if anyone who has made the move from permanent to contract work could give some hints and tips on their experiences. <comment><USER2> Simple: Get a client.

As a developer, there is lots of demand. People will ask to hire you. Politely decline and offer to contract. Eventually someone will accept. Then when they want to hire you, politely decline again. Eventually they may even offer to hire you at a fair salary, which you may choose to accept.

Keep in mind you need to be more than a developer. You are now a professional with a private business, and you need to act that way. You need to be your own boss, be accountable, communicate well, and hold yourself to a high standard.

If you are a cave dwelling developer who's bitter about managers and non- technical people, you should probably stick with your salaried job.

I can't understand how a competent, experienced developer with basic communication skills would have trouble finding contract work once they start looking. That said, I've encountered plenty of incompetent or obviously lying developers looking for contract work. If that's you, keep working until you are competent and don't have to lie.

<comment><USER3> You've advised "get a client" and "people will ask to hire you," but that only works if people are already aware of you. What if you are unknown? Where do you find these people people who will ask to hire you?

<comment><USER4> It takes time. My first accidental client came after a failed startup I was pitching around NYC. Weeks after we closed shop, Someone asked if I knew a developer who was looking for work on the side. I said yes, and I took on the project.

If you are a developer, your friends should at least know that you are a developer. Start from there. Giving talks at meetup groups is also a huge plus. I think a key thing is that people need to know you do or are at least looking for contract work. If your goal is to find contract work, I highly suggest your linkedin profile list your job title as Freelance Software Developer or something similar if your primary job doesn't monitor your linkedin profiles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I did it accidentally without really knowing there was such a thing as contracting. I was 19 years old, self taught PHP Dev and the highest salary where i lived (Edinburgh, UK) was £22k. I had always wanted to go to London and so i started looking for a job there. I got invited for an interview at a place in London, went down, had already done a technical test remotely and got told i had scored the highest overall in the test of all applicants (it wasnt a hard test so i'm amazed they said that).

I got offered the job at the end of the interview and asked what salary i expected. I hadnt a god damned clue and just pulled £30k out my ass thinking that was a big ask even for London. In hindsight they probably would've given me £45k at least because they bit my arm off saying that they'd happily give me £30k with a raise of £5k in 1 year. I accepted and the HR person brought me the contract, i started reading and got to a section i didnt like. It basically said all code i produced both at the company and in my spare time would be owned by them, i asked them to remove it, they refused and i walked. BEST THING I EVER DID!

Coincidentally i had seen another job advert for a temporary gig elsewhere in London the day before on a job board. After refusing the offer at the first place at probably 11am, i walked to an internet cafe, phoned the advert, said i could be there that afternoon, traveled across London, interviewed at probably 1pm, got the offer at 3pm by phone, and started the next morning at £250 a day, which was stupid money at the time.

I've been a contractor since and that was 8 years ago, i now charge £400 a day and still do PHP work. PHP isnt cool, but i like it, it pays the bills and its in high demand and ive got a pretty nice portfolio.

<comment><USER6> what sort of experience did you have before you started contracting? I'm surprised you were able to get a 250/day job as a 19 year old.

<comment><USER5> I had a few freelance gigs and a small stint as a permie at an agency back home but nothing near the kind of portfolio i have now. Luckily i was interviewed by people that appreciated the fact that i taught myself and i could demonstrate that knowledge.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I recently stepped down from my fulltime position of 6 years. I picked up a job fairly quickly and have work lined up through the end of the year. I would recommend:

* Go to (and speak at) meetups involving technologies you work with. It's a great way to showcase your skills.

* Be charitable with your time. Be willing to meet people for coffee and provide free advice. These sort of meetings often directly or indirectly turn into work.

* Leave your company in good terms--they might use you as a contractor after you leave.

I would definitely recommend saving up 4-6 months of living expenses before quitting. It gives you some flexibility in setting your rate and selecting jobs.

<comment><USER8> Saving 4-6 mths might seem like a dreamland only visited by flying pigs for many. I would say that you spend at least two months _in control of your money_.

\- have a spreadsheet of income and outgoings and update it weekly ( really just download stmts from the bank works here). But go through it each time and see if you can cut something

\- pay back your debt - know where it is, which is highest interest etx

\- sell stuff - declutger a lot

After two months you will feel in control and it will be a habit

<comment><USER9> _Saving 4-6 mths might seem like a dreamland only visited by flying pigs for many._

Maybe that's a sign that contracting is not for those people.

Even if you're lucky, and you land a stable, long-term gig within say a month of leaving your previous job and actually get paid according to your 30 day terms, you're still looking at living off savings for a couple of months. If that client, however honest and well-intentioned, turns out to be financially insecure and fails two weeks after your first invoice goes in, you're probably just another unsecured creditor who may not get much if anything out of them, and you start the cycle again. Or you might have longer periods for your payment terms, particularly with the more lucrative larger clients. Or you might take a couple of months to find your first gig if you don't have much of a track record or network yet. Or...

If you don't have enough financial security to survive for a few months with no additional income, you should have no doubt that dropping a regular job to go freelance is a big risk. Of course sometimes risks pay off, and if you do land a well-paid gig quickly then once you've got an invoice or two under your belt you can probably build that missing safety net quickly too. But sometimes risks end in disaster, and if you've got kids to feed or a mortgage to pay or other important financial commitments then you'd be brave/foolish to make the jump without ensuring you have a plan B.

<comment><USER10> I'm a contractor from the UK and I tend to get paid weekly. This is common.

<comment><USER9> Weekly payments are certainly possible, but I challenge your claim that they are common, at least in software development. It's just a personal anecdote, but I have literally never seen it in my entire career, not in my own contract work, not when any client or employer I worked with brought on someone else, not even in a job ad on any serious contracting forum. Unless you're doing either a lot of very short-term or fixed-price jobs, I would think the overheads of sorting out invoices and tax records so often would make it too much hassle for a lot of contractors anyway, but maybe if you're used to it and have all the tools and shortcuts in place it's possible for some people.

Edit: Also, I'm talking about working directly with clients here. What goes on with agencies or other intermediaries involved might be a different question.

<comment><USER10> I tend to work with agents. It turns out a bit more expensive for the clients, but I'm garunteed to get paid, and it's often how I find out about the jobs.

Do you find direct clients from avenues other than word of mouth?

<comment><USER9> Fair enough, that probably explains our very different experiences then. As you suggested, we generally do find clients via networking and referrals one way or another.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Recruiters. I had a salaried job and was contacted by recruiters. They were recruiting for a company that is about 50/50 salaried/contracting. Other than that, nothing special.

One thing that I didn't see being brought up in the thread you mentioned is the fact that a recruitment agency bills a rate different to what I get payed. For example, my agency is likely billing out at $80/hour or more, yet I only get $55/hour.

So I'm curious if others were entering amounts that agencies were billing out, rather than what they were being payed.

<comment><USER12> > _my agency is likely billing out at $80/hour or more, yet I only get > $55/hour_

Wait, what? Where are you? Please tell me you're a regular employee of the agency on paper, getting benefits and not paying self-employment tax?

<comment><USER13> Doesn't seem that far off what I've seen. Example would be $130/hr billed, $80/hr paid to a contractor or $50/hr paid to a FT employee. We don't have any "self-employment tax" though (beyond standard income tax).

Juniors on the other hand get pretty exploited in the name of "earning their stripes" - I've seen a few accounts over the years of billing at $80-150/hr and the employees getting $15-25/hr..

I think the local average for recruiters and agencies (usually one and the same here) is 15% of first-year wage for FT placements, or $30/hr margin for contract work.

<comment><USER12> Who is "we"? You're apparently in Australia, for example, which is of key importance to understanding the numbers in your comment, because of both its unusually high cost of living, its tax structure, and the provisioning of social services.

If jetblackio is in California, he's getting ripped off (doubly so if he's a 1099 and/or pays any substantial amount for his health plan). If he's in Wisconsin or Canada, he's probably doing OK. If he's in a country that doesn't use a currency called "dollars" but he's incorrectly using the dollar sign anyway, that throws everything completely out of whack.

This is why I asked where he is.

<comment><USER13> Right, was just providing a point of context, although clearly forgot to anchor it (Australia is correct).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'll give my experience in case it helps, but I'd start out by giving some advice. If the reason you want to move from a permanent salaried position to contract work is to make more money, don't.

If you don't want to read my advice and just want my experience skip to the next section.

There's a reason contractors make more money; it's because it's a _lot_ more work. The way I think of salaried employment is that it's an exchange. The salaried employee agrees to work for less than the market rate, and in exchange the employer agrees to subsidize your down time. In other words, you don't have to worry about constantly finding the next thing to do just to get paid. You get to focus on the work.

You'd be amazed how much work is involved contracting. You must go to networking events and startup meetups constantly for years in order to build up your identity. You must actually create your own portfolio website and keep it updated. You must keep your LinkedIn and Twitter profiles updated. You must do your taxes and send out W9s to each of your clients every year and follow up with them if they don't respond (and then talk with them more when they send you forms that don't match your records). You must meet with a lot of people and talk about their projects before figuring out that only 50% of them are even relevant to what you do, and of those maybe 50% actually get to the quote/estimate stage, and of those maybe 50% become paying contracts.

I'd say, when I was just contracting to support myself, maybe 50% of my time was billable; closer to 75% when I actually had a big contract that could keep me busy for a few months without worrying about lining something else up right away. So, if my billable rate was $100/hr, my effective rate was closer to $50-$75/hr. And then here in the US, taxes would take about 30%, so closer to $35-$45/hr.

On top of all that, you can never count on the work you have. You may have a need for X hours per week to sustain yourself, but that doesn't mean your clients will require X hours. They only need what they need. And being a contractor, what you need is officially not their problem. Of course, you could always work out deals with clients that guarantee X hours per week, but they'll only agree to it if they think they actually need more than that, and as soon as they stop needing it, they'll end the contract.

You could be living the high life with one awesome client, your bread and butter, for months or even years, and then suddenly wake up to an email saying they no longer need your services. Maybe the project they had you do is finished. Or they decided they were spending enough with you to justify a full-time employee to do it in-house. Or maybe the CEO of the company just found out his nephew does programming, and he can do it instead of you. Maybe their decision to cut you is a good decision for them. Or maybe it's a really bad decision that you can't prevent them from making. Doesn't matter. All that matters is that, as of this morning, you now have no paying work.

I could go on and on, as these are only the most pertinent warnings that come to mind. Hopefully I've sufficiently scared you. Cool. Now here's how I did it...

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>--

First of all, I started contracting way before I needed to, just because it was fun, and it served as a way for me to get paid to learn how to do what I enjoyed and to become better. For years, I'd get up at 5 or 6am, go to work, come home around 5 or 6pm, make dinner, and work on my own projects until 2 or 3am. Having built your own projects is by far the best way to convince the first few clients to actually pay you (once you've done enough networking to meet them). I'd estimate I spent probably a couple thousand hours building my own projects, or building things in-kind for friends and family before getting someone to pay me straight up cash. I did this from the time I was a freshman in college to the time I was a senior (full-time student + job + side projects) before getting a paid contract I think, and then continued to do it for another year or so after college.

You may not have this problem if you're already salaried doing the same kind of work that you want to do contracting. I, however, was a mechanical and electrical engineer who wanted to build software. WIthout a relevant degree or official work experience, I had to teach myself and build stuff. After a few years building my own stuff, I also started doing a _lot_ of open source work.

Eventually though, I had to start charging. This was hard. I started out, as anyone, low-balling some projects. Hopefully you only do that once or twice before you realize how unsustainable it is. Once I realized this, I started asking for more. I remember how guilty I felt at first, as I couldn't imagine that some site I could build would be work over $1,000 (!!!). It's actually funny to look back on it now, and realize how unsustainable even that was. I'm glad I listened to the advice or others at the time and didn't insist on such rates for long.

Like I said before, I continued to contract on the side, also spending tons of time grooming my own portfolio website, building side projects, working on open-source projects, and going to networking events (sometimes calling in my paid personal time to go to really good ones during the week), for several years.

I never considered quitting my job though until I knew I had enough work lined up to make the same amount I was currently making at my full-time engineering job. With student loans and whatnot, this wasn't really even an choice I could make. At times, it felt as though this would never happen. I couldn't conceive of a world where enough contract work existed that I could possibly line up. But I continued (I think this is where a love for what you do plays a strong role).

Eventually, through networking, I met someone who owned a web development company, and I discovered the world of sub-contracting. They had a lot of work and not enough people to do it. They wanted to hire me, but I knew I wanted to contract on my own. So we worked out a deal with me sub-contracting, and they could guarantee my at least 30 hours per week for the next 3 months. At our agreed upon rate, that was enough to beat what I was making as an engineer. I figured worst case was that I now had 3 months to find more work, and I put in my 2 week's notice. That was the scariest thing I had ever done (and in fact I wrote an article about it that became one of my first popular posts on HN at the time: [http://www.alfajango.com/blog/if-youre-nervous-about- quittin...](http://www.alfajango.com/blog/if-youre-nervous-about-quitting- your-boring-job-youre-sane/)).

Once I was contracting full-time and setting my own schedule, I was able to kick my networking into high gear. Meanwhile, my new friend's company kept me on as a subcontractor beyond those few months. They actually ended up getting a big client that insisted after a couple months that I was the only one who could lead development of their project. Due to networking and word of mouth, I ended up getting a few clients of my own, one of which was big enough to sub-contract several developers myself. Thankfully by that time, I actually knew some developers who'd do it, developers whom I had met networking and working on open-source).

And the ball has been rolling ever since. I now own a company that builds startups full-time. We are a sort of CTO + dev team for hire; or a software- consultancy-meets-VC if you want to think about it that way.

It's much more awesome than my engineering job. So, I'm not saying don't set off on your own. Just that it's a lot of work, and that none of it is guaranteed to ever pay off. Right now, I'd say my team and I live comfortably, but it's still a lot of stress day-to-day. If I had taken all that time and effort that I spent to be able to contract on my own, and instead channeled it into getting a better job, I'd probably have a lot more money than I do now. But it wouldn't be what I wanted to be doing. That's the real reason to start contracting, for personal growth.

In other words, it takes a lot of work to build a lifestyle as a contractor. If you took all that effort and time, side projects and personal branding, and channeled it instead as leverage to find a better job, that'd probably be a much quicker path to making more money than contracting. So, I wouldn't contract for the money, I'd do it because it's what you feel like you must do to be happy.

 _EDIT: I should also note that, reading through some of the other comments that say "it's as simple as getting a client, going to meetups, etc." I was tempted to say that at first too. I sometimes forget how much time I spent going to meetups and building experience before any of this really started becoming "simple" for me. It's easy to look back on the past 9 years I've been doing this and forget how much work went into each actual year, or how long a year really is._

<comment><USER15> It sounds like you're describing freelancing, rather than contracting.

<comment><USER14> When you're starting out from a salaried full time job and asking HN how you do contracting, they're the same thing.

If you already have clients lined up where you can do work as or within a company without first freelancing, then you're probably not in HN asking how to do it.

<comment><USER15> No, they're not. You can get a contract role by talking to a recruiter or going on a recruitment website, without any kind of online portfolio or presence. For the freelancing stuff, you need to go through the dance you laid out.

<comment><USER14> I suppose that's another way to do it. But I can only speak to my experience, and I admittedly don't have much experience with recruiters. I've never used recruiters for either freelancing or contracting and I have a freelanced in several years.

Edit: also, many of the other comments here were, get a client, not speak to a recruiter, so this was somewhat a response to that add well.

<comment><USER16> I think they also missed the background discussion.

In the UK, permanent salaries are very low compared to other english speaking markets. Several people (self included) mentioned contracting. This is distinct from freelancing in that it usually for a company running a project but in need of some specific skills for a fixed time at a daily rate, rather than asking you to make something for a fixed price.

I see them as distinct career paths, and I'm pretty sure the question was aimed at this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> MY STORY

1) Do good work for your current employer.

2) Left to do a startup full time. It stalled. (Still working on it)

3) Second job opportunity came along while I was full time on my startup.

4) Went back to original company first, negotiated contracting position

5) Went to second job opportunity, negotiated contracting position.

MY ADVICE

1) Do good work for your current employer.

2) Find second employment opportunity.

3) Negotiate contracting position with current employer

4) Negotiate contracting position with second employer.

* Every time you get a new client, try and charge a higher rate.

* Always do good work for your employer/client

THE BEAUTY

The beautiful thing about contracting is you have multiple revenue streams. So if one stream is not providing you with the opportunities that you need, you are always in a position to renegotiate or trade up. You never feel trapped in a position. You'll also naturally gain a better understanding of what you are worth as a developer.

THE PAIN

There is a learning curve to becoming a contractor. But once you learn the tax system, automate what you can for time tracking, invoicing, and taxes, it is not a big deal.

</comment><comment><USER15> Looks like quite a few of these replies are mixing up freelancing, and contracting, which in London are very different beasts:

* Freelancing - you're getting paid to do a project, and the risk is all on you

* Contracting - it's a very well-paid office job with no security

I've done both, and the latter is much much less hassle, much much more lucrative, with less freedom.

<comment><USER16> Absolutely. Contracting is well paid, and basically sacrifices security (largely an illusion anyway IMHO) for cold hard cash. So far it's been little different to permanent work, but with a change of location, teams and technology every few months.

I find it quite stimulating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> One other thing to take note of is depending on your relationship with the client, it may take a while to get paid...

If you are an independent subcontractor (in the US - 1099 status), you will likely be working through a middleman not direct to the client. So you will likely get paid on a regular payroll cycle (most likely).

If you incorporate yourself and work corp to corp (preferable in my opinion), you can sometimes work direct with the client or still through a third party. However, you'll end up billing them on a likely monthly basis on net 30 terms. So you bill them at the end of a month, and they have another month to pay you. So you may go 2 months without any compensation...

And don't forget the various insurances you'll need (at least in the US; errors and ommissions, liability, possibly workers comp).

<comment><USER19> I have two clients at the moment. One pays monthly, 30-45 days after invoice and sends me a paper check. The other pays me twice a month, 15-21 days out (weekly time submission), and it's direct deposit. Like clockwork. You would think it shouldn't make a difference but I can tell you that it does absolutely make a difference. It's just professionalism.

You're right also about liability and workers comp, though I believe every state is different. Some states are more friendly to small businesses of course. So it makes sense to get yourself an accountant, especially if you calculate the amount of hours it would otherwise take you to do that work. Those are hours you could be working.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Jacques Mattheij (jacquesm on HN) wrote a good series of posts on contracting, which might help you - <http://jacquesmattheij.com/blog/categories/consulting>

Here's the HN discussion - <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=848370>

In case anyone is interested in getting more useful resources on a regular basis to improve their contracting chops, I'm starting a weekly newsletter for freelancers. Sign up here - <http://freelancers.getgini.com>

<comment><USER21> FYI your newsletter has the same name as mine: <http://freelancersweekly.com/>

<comment><USER20> Woops! That was totally unintentional. I'm not attached to the name, so I'll change it. I love your newsletter, and mine will hopefully be complementary to yours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've seen this recommended:

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and- patrick-...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick- mckenzie-on-getting-your-first-consulting-client/)

The advice seems pretty generic to me, though. It's useful if you have a specific specialization like SEO or marketing, because it's easy to take than and turn it into, "how I can improve your company/bottom-line." On the other hand, someone that is just a general developer with no particular specializations probably will have to spend more time coming up with a pitch for themselves.

</comment><comment><USER23> You can do contract work if you want. It's what I do. Like others are saying it is harder. In the UK, I am not sure, but here it means you're responsible for more stuff. We have to buy our own health insurance policies or go without, for example. I'm sure you'd have to save your own taxes, instead of withholding. If you've never done that before, I assure you, it's really hard!

The contract rates are higher because they are paying for the: fact that in a few months you have to find a new job, so you're being compensated in advance for that, fact that there won't be benefits, fact that you are going to do a lot more work than a regular employee..

So, what's the good thing about contracting: Freedom. At least in the US, a 1099 employee can't be told: when to work, where to work, what to use for tools, etc. In practice, they can still ask you to "agree" to these things up front, but compared the level of control a regular employee is encumbered by, it is much less. This is US specific, not sure what the UK law is.

You get variety. Some people like the experience of working with lots of people and companies.

Finally, I guess the advice piece: you'll only be able to live off contract work if you are absolutely fearless and totally independent. You'll have to interview/find clients a lot. A client meeting is a bit less scrutinizing than a job interview, but you'll have a lot more of them, and your success will depend on finding work _often_

<comment><USER24> He's in the UK. We have health covered. He would have to have liability insurance tho, but it's not expensive (£300/year)

<comment><USER23> lucky :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I ... just did it. Handed in my notice, and started looking for contracts. Jobserve is a good place to look. Find people contracting in your field, or places that hire contractors, and ask them which agencies they use. You'll always get a better rate outside of agencies, but they'll get you started off nicely. You'll make more if you start a limited company, but start off with someone like <http://www.giantgroup.com/> to ease you in to it the paperwork.

<comment><USER25> How many years experience from graduation would you recommend before 'taking the leap'?

<comment><USER15> How good are you? I started contracting at 22, but had been programming since a young age, and could back it up. If you think you'll be one of the top devs at most places, you're probably ready, if not ... You'll be one of these contractors complaining they're out of work half the time! :-)

<comment><USER26> Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. You're propagating the myth that contracters are supposed to be shit hot developers, the 1%, and that's simply not true. While it might be true to a degree in the US, it certainly isn't in the UK. Most contracting positions in the UK are for bog standard .net / Java developers doing grunt work, not hit-the-ground-running/take-over-the-project developers. An average/reasonably-ok developer with 5 years experience is fully qualified to contract in the UK, and shouldn't expect any serious downtime.

<comment><USER16> That gives me lots of confidence because I am a hit-the-ground running type :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I contracted for 3 years after my previous employer made the mistake of putting all their eggs in one basket. Simply posted my CV on the various job sites, sent of a few applications and took a few short Rails/Python bits and pieces, then was lucky to get a couple of longer term ones. I recently went back to permanent after I was made an offer I can't refuse. Already feel a bit claustrophobic, I'll have to see how it pans out.

</comment><comment><USER24> I think a lot of people, especially @jangosteve, mistake freelancing for contracting.

I've been in London for 6 years, I've contracted for 5 of those (architect position at the BBC was "only available is it was full time". In hind sight, I shouldn't have taken it). I've been out of work for a total of 6 days in 6 years (took a week to get a contract after a 3 month holiday). I started my first contract within 6 days of landing in the country (nothing prearranged)

Freelancing is when you go from short term contract to short term contract, or you quote/bid for work. They can be 2-5 days a week, for maybe a month or less. For that I agree you need to pimp yourself like @jangosteve says, because you are moving so much. You are basically a 1 (wo)man consultancy.

I don't do this (except for my "on the side" mobile stuff). Too inconsistent.

But if you are a back-end dev (or front end, just to a slightly lesser degree) you can stay in the same place for _years_, or until you get bored of it. 3-6 months is a normal minimum, at least in the .net space which I'm in.

Unless you are useless. Then you're likely to get turfed out quickly.

Where I am at the moment, I've been there for 3 years (nearly). Last place I was there for 2 including some as a full timer. I've done moonlighting (apps, websites) at the same time. One of the guys I work with has been there for 8 years. I'm sure HMRC should have something to say about it, but no one is looking.

I'd normally want to move on after 2, just to keep fresh, but I do the same with FT jobs.

I'd be very hesitant about taking a FT position anymore. You can be fired with 1 months notice, and you get 4 weeks holiday, and maybe 75% of the wages _with tax removed before you get it_.

Contracting, I get no notice (this has only happened once when the customer literally ran out of money), but usually 28 days. I don't get paid if I'm sick, but I keep myself healthy and allow for 2 weeks sick and 6 weeks holiday a year. I have insurance to cover if I get REALLY sick.

I usually take closer to 8 weeks holiday a year. Sometimes between contracts, sometimes during them (usually during, but not at the same time)

For me, contracting is an easy way to work. The paperwork overhead with a system like freeagent is TRIVIAL if you have a half decent accountant (cough mine is great cough maslins.co.uk). Make sure you have a bit of a buffer in case you DO have issues getting work or a client pays late (if they pay late consistently, fire their arse)

So: 1\. Get a limited company, and a good accountant 2\. Get indemnity insurance (you need it anyway) 3\. Get used to being called by recruiters who you'd like to slap with a fish 4\. DO IT

<comment><USER9> _I think a lot of people, especially @jangosteve, mistake freelancing for contracting._

The way you're using the term "contracting" is not the way everyone does. What you're talking about is short-term, fixed-term contracts, and otherwise sounds a lot like disguised employment, and as you mentioned HMRC might have something to say about that if they had time. However, there are plenty of other models for contract work that don't have the structure and limitations you described but are still clearly contracting rather than employment.

<comment><USER28> _The way you're using the term "contracting" is not the way everyone does._

Different locations refer to contracting differently and this is part of the issue when people talk about contracting and freelancing. You need to work out the location in which they are referring to.

In London and the UK this is indeed how people use the term "contracting". London has a whole market built around "contracting" the way nicwise describes.

<comment><USER9> _In London and the UK this is indeed how people use the term "contracting"_

It's how _some_ people in London and the UK use the term and how some of their contracts are set up. But plenty of other people would also describe themselves as "contractors" despite having a different kind of contractual arrangement, and since no-one has some magical authority to define the term I think your generalisation is unfounded. If nothing else, a lot of boundaries have been deliberately blurred since IR35 came along, so the whole permie vs. contractor distinction hasn't been what it used to be for at least a decade.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Honestly, no different from how I got permanent jobs; I sent CVs to recruiters and talked to them on the phone. Since then I've been obsessive about building up my contacts book to make sure I can get proactively in front of them as and when I want to, but renewals have come in enough that it's not been needed (though probably available from August - if you're looking for an MS stack guy with heavy SQL in the UK Midlands from then, mail me on email@example.com).

Honestly - the grass isn't as much greener as you might think. It's more hassle, less security and holidays suddenly become horrendously expensive. But if you fancy the lifestyle and think it's for you, give it a try. It doesn't have to be any harder than permanent employment to get into our stay in (if you use umbrella companies and are good enough), it does have its benefits and if it doesn't work out, go looking for permanent work again, enough people switch between them that you'll be fine.

<comment><USER30> > less security

Depends a lot - if you have one or a small number of big clients, you probably have slightly less security than full-time employment.

If you have a large number of diverse clients, you have tremendous security - even if some clients drop your services, you can easily manage this.

Not being dependent on one person's whim or one company's solvency is awesome job security.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I just did this 3 months ago and I agree with aneth4, it's always best to start with a client if you can -- just be careful that you aren't violating any employment agreements you have with your current employer as you go after that first client.

One of the biggest fears I hear from people looking to make the jump is "I can't take the risk to get started."

This one stops a lot of people from making the jump from full-time employee to freelancer but you can do things to minimize your risk.

Depending on your current employment agreement, you may be able to do some moonlighting in order to build up a client list before you make the jump.

Get a part-time job to help pay the bills.

Or, just do what I did, take the leap with confidence that you will quickly sign a few clients and get things started.

For me, the most important part of freelancing has been my network. Make sure you are continually making connections. Ask for clients for referrals or recommendations. Word of mouth of your network is going to be the best marketing you can buy.

</comment><comment><USER32> I am planning these days to leave my full-time job and switch over to contracting. Since I don't have any real experience, so my thoughts might be irrelevant, nevertheless, I would like to share a few things I learned from other successful contractors in my area.

1\. Don't do everything. Find a niche, something that you are good at and stay focused on it.

2\. Before signing up for a project, make a guess how successful it will be. Having successful projects in your portfolio will help you grab new projects more easily.

3\. Try to get initial projects through your personal network. This might help both parties develop some initial trust.

4\. Favor longer projects over shorter ones.

5\. Don't charge for the all of the project at once. Divide requirements into milestones, and invoice the client on completion of each milestone.

You may agree or disagree with points above, I would like to learn what you think about them.

</comment><comment><USER16> Worked in various software jobs for about 12 years, including about six years at big blue, two of those were in Australia.

Decided to move back to the UK, quit my job, registered a limited company and basically started to apply for any and all suitable contract roles from various job sites. Agents got my cv and started calling. 3 weeks later I had my first contract. 3 months later I quit it and got another.

My advice - don't wait as long as I did, but do be prepared to go two or three months before you get a paycheck. Also be prepared for a lot of useless phone calls about the 'perfect permanent role', which you're not interested in because yuck, perm! More advice on demand, but I'm only a year into this game. Would not go back.

</comment><comment><USER33> I worked at a contracting firm for 6 years. that network of people has helped me stay employed as an independent contractor for 7 years. a lot of them have gone on to other places and email when they need contractors. always be networking. keep up with people on linked in and go to networking events to stay in touch. i also had a partner for the first few years so our networks helped each other out. network with other contractors, they are a great source of leads if they can't do a job.

also, the key is to get long term contracts. in seven years i have only had 8 clients. i usually go from one to the next. that is key to not have a lot of "bench time"

</comment><comment><USER34> I actually started my career in programming by contracting.

A friend at my coworking loft needed the prototype for a project made. I told him I had no clue what I was doing, but I'd give it a shot and he said he'd pay me.

The prototype was super rough, but it was sufficient for him to raise money on, and 4-5 years later its still rocking. And I was off to doing contracting/freelance after that.

Really for contracting I find you've either got to get yourself in with a consulting/design company who will hire you hourly, or be incredibly social and just network your ass off. I've rarely had consulting gigs that were because of some random email online- almost always people I've known.

</comment><comment><USER35> I got into consulting/contracting about 12 years ago when my wife and I moved to a very small town in the mountains, about 2.5 hours from the nearest large airport. I transitioned to remote consulting work because going on business trips is painful when you tag on 5 hours of round trip driving to an airport.

Here are a few things that help me in my business. I write a lot, mostly sharing small bits of code that might save people some time; offer free mentoring help (limited to 1 hour); some open source projects. BTW, the mentoring has not lead to any business (nor is it meant to), but it is fun.

</comment><comment><USER36> I built a rough prototype of a developer tool I planned to sell that got some interest from consulting companies. Since we weren't making enough revenue yet but I was full-time at a normal job, I figured going into contractor work would be a nice transition to going full-time on my company, plus the hourly rate was about 2x what I was doing at my full-time job. They seemed happy to have me help them out for a bit.

It worked pretty well and I only had to do it for a few months, but I learned I don't really care for client work.

</comment><comment><USER37> I made the move from salaried to on-site contracting to startup co-founding, and am now doing remote contracting and/or part-time cofounding (heard that term yesterday :).

I got into contracting by applying for a contract in the SF Bay Area from Florida, did a phone interview,received an offer -- to contract at Hewlett- Packard. I believe I found the contract on dice.com, which also helped me find other contracts. I already had experience building software for my parents' company, and had built some of my own sites, including CGI stuff that I had to pay $125/month for a shared account for, back in those days! I didn't realize what my market rate should be on the first contract. I then got recruited away by a startup to help build the first online yellow pages site. HP asked to make a counter-offer but I (foolishly) didn't let them. After some time at the startup (which later turned down an acquisition offer from pre-IPO Yahoo, doh!, and finally basically shut down), I returned to contracting, this time to Schwab. Then I did some freelance, and then returned to help the same group at HP for a short-time. Then contracting at Bank of America. Then a short contract for a web dev shop, and then got into angel investing (Napster), and co-founding startups (social networking pioneer Ryze).

Now several startups later, I've returned to a combination of remote contracting and/or part-time co-founder (heard this term yesterday :). Some companies I've helped on a cash basis (hourly/weekly rate). In many cases, it is combination of cash plus equity. I'm just wrapping up a contract where I built out the server and dev-ops infrastructure and code for a new startup, as well as helping w/ analytics, product, etc. (and where I continue to be a senior adviser).

My experience has been that the on-site contracting market in the SF Bay Area is quite efficient and dynamic, and networking is not necessarily needed. Although I did a lot of networking in the early days, which has been great in opening up opportunities over the medium/long-term, the networking was not a factor in getting leads for on-site contracting. However, it led to some resume bullet points that may have been helpful in landing some of those contracts (e.g. landing the BofA contract was helped by my experience coding some of the first Java applet ads for Symantec back in the day that was a freelance project that came from networking).

</comment><comment><USER38> Realize that the move to contractor will depend on your ability to sell your services. Before anything, I would start marketing and then focus on making the jump. Don't quit without doing so, because your marketing could take months to start working (relative to your skills at doing so). If anything, read my profile.

</comment><comment><USER39> Assuming you're based in London, feel free to get in touch and I can give you a run-down about how it works here in London. (details in my profile)

I've been in and out of consulting for myself, for large companies (SAP for example), sub-contracting, and developing. Both in London and the US. Happy to help guide a fellow HN'r.

</comment><comment><USER40> 1) Quit job to start a startup with a lot of savings. 2) Met lots of people networking for my startup. 3) Startup failed. 4) People start asking me to do projects for them because they noticed how much I hustled when I was doing my startup.

</comment><comment><USER41> I'm also in the exact same position and would be very interested to know how to get into remote/telecommuting contracting.

</comment><comment><USER42> I worked overseas for three months for my last permanent job (back in 2007), and really enjoyed the flexibility of being about to avoid winter. But since that was a one off (and I was sort of planning on moving country), I quit that job... then put some feelers out for possible contract work. And for the past five years I've been completely busy with that.

I'm a full-stack, jack-of-all-trades sort of dev. Bit rubbish at design (but I have a great designer I partner with when needed), but I do a bit of everything, from infrastructure, networking, database, middle tier and front- end html/css/javascript. Any specialist in any of the above will wipe the floor with me skills/wise. But I'm pretty comfortable communicating with clients and helping get the best bang-for-buck with them only having to basically describe what they are trying to achieve.

My key bit of advice would be to fire difficult clients and only work for time and materials. If a client is too high a maintenance, you may not be a good fit for them, or them for you. In that case I try and transition them elsewhere, recommending someone that may be a better option.

Equally, fixed prices quotes are almost never worth it in my experience. I'd rather release early and often, then the client can then see how much business value they've gotten for XX amount of hours/money. After which, they can make the decision to either continue or to terminate, depending on whether they feel they're getting value or not. It's normally a completely different way of working for most clients, but I often offer a two week shared-risk starter deal to ease them into it. If it doesn't work, I'll absorb half the cost and we'll call it quits. But so far, every relationship seems to have worked out well.

The biggest downside is possibly taking time off. I'm pretty flexible about timings. I'll work when clients need it, and take breaks during slack periods (of which there haven't been enough). But my ex wasn't supportive of me having to work while on 'holiday'. It wasn't a lot (no more than 20 hours over a two week holiday), but YMMV depending on how understanding your partner is/isn't.

As far as transitioning goes. Try sounding people out for possible side projects you can do while keeping your day job. I worry that I'm not a good networker, and that one day the work will completely dry up. But on the flip- side, I kind of want that to happen, so I can focus more on projects that I want to do myself. And it's hard to do those when you've got paying projects to do. But if you can pick up a couple of side projects, once they're earning almost enough to live off, you've no excuse to pack in your day job and do that full time. I've got a couple of mates who started contracting this way.

Unless you mean just straight out contracting... as in, apply for a typical contract and work there.. just like a day job. In which case, it's a piece of piss... just start applying. But I find recruiters(pimps) rather distasteful to go through, so I've avoided them completely. (There are good ones, but they're few and far between)

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER43> how's it even hard to go to contracting? I always make twice as much as I would working a salaried job.

</comment><comment><USER44> Become a known expert in what you do.)

</comment><comment><USER45> I started contracting when I was 19 and have never looked back. The only jobs I worked were from age 12 to 19.

I outlined how I did it a little in a post yesterday:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5805627>

This is two brain dumps in two days, maybe I should be putting this on a blog, apologies if that's more appropriate. Apologies for typos or grammar, I'm writing this in one pass before heading out.

To dig into the comment about finding your first customers.....

My formula, which I recommend you consider trying some or all of (and has worked for friends making the jump):

\- Keep your job. You are not here to learn developer skills, but business skills. You will build up your part time income to take over what you make full time. Too much work? It's probably a fair comparison to how much work getting and fulfilling contracts will be until you get the hang of it so dive in. Just be prepared to work more to have the flexibility to do what you want. There are some incredibly insightful tips in this thread overall, especially the few at the top.

\- Business skills are something you will be learning forever, like coding.

\- The first business skill you need to learn is value. Then, creating it, in a reasonably sustainable way that you can then start to rely on.

\- The second business skill you must do is come to some sort of working peace with money if you have any issues with making it or issues with what your professional value is. I regularly bully/coach friends into business for themselves and can be available to give you a few words of advice. For me, it's becoming like credits in a video game to do other thing I want on top of interesting and meaningful work. I do some tougher work that pays better, so I can spend time with a startup or idea I like at a discounted rate, or put in more time than normal where you like.

\- My currency is respect and customers who know it get way more from me without me being able to help myself. The ones who don't seem to filter themselves out. This may or may not be for you but whatever it is for you, the sooner you can get a sense of what it is, and develop it forever, the easier you'll have a compass to know if something is right or not.

\- You're welcome to dive in to beat the statistics, but you will stand a better chance if you start freelancing and slowly building it up by finding long term customers.

\- SMB's want one guy to shoot. They don't care that it's the server's fault, the isp's fault, a bug in the code, or a bug in the platform or framework. They want the one interface who is like a department or interface to them to get that wing of their business sorted out. They'll be ok if you find someone and manage them for cost + 10% if they don't want it.

\- The more they think of you when they have problems that need solving, the more you'll end up having long term customers for 4-10 years like I have. I don't say yes to all the work, sometimes I help them hire, sometimes I help them find a vendor, sometimes I hire the vendor for them and train them, sometimes I sub them out under myself, it totally depends on the situation, my availability and interest, but bottom line is I'm paid well for my time to figure it out for them and monthly retainers become that much more valuable to them

\- Many small to medium businesses may not have a full time position, but have enough to afford $500-$1500 a month. Either this work needs to be right up you alley, or trivial for you to do and deliver effectively and consistently. It might be a technical retainer, or a certain amount of bug fixes, or features, etc.

\- Don't have an ego. I started doing networking, IT support, fixing printers, and then once I did the six month "network stabilization" the customer naturally turned to software support. I wasn't above doing anything. If the computer needed to be cleaned out from dust, I did it. That attention to detail is what one day had me doing the replenishment orders for a billion dollar retail company on a weekly basis by analyzing what they sold in the past week and what they should try the next week as an experiment.

\- I'm a full stack guy though and it helped me a lot get in the door to fix something trivial or figure out something finicky and after I did that, the relationship was great. Being that person that came in and took care of a small thing that was important is a great way to get in, most of my referrals came this way too because business owners like showing off their people to other business owner buddies. I recommend you be as full stack as your honest interest allows. Along the way you will find the things that you love more than others, and I lump them into necessary evil (complex hosting hosting the projects I build) vs what I love (building the software that never goes down)

\- It is far more preferable to find 10 customers who will pay you $1000 a month (that's 100 hours billable at $100/hr) than to look for all of it in one place. If one dies, changes, or disappears, you won't sink. Chances are you might find 4-5 customers that pay $2000.

\- Deliver monthly summary reports of the value you provided. Number of requests, what you solved, what you looked into on your own initiative, savings you helped create or increase, money you helped them make, etc. Attach it to the invoice every time. It's the only permanent record you'll have when you look back in 4-7 years.

\- One thing that didn't exist as much 10 years ago was remote development and remote access. PCAnywhere was the king and it helped me learn how lay down a remote developer life with visits in person as needed. What I did was to offer not to bill customers for travel time, or a minimum on-site bill and instead charge them by the quarter or half hour if they'd let me work with them via screenshare (if it was necessary). It's a fair trade with the right customer. Be open to learning how well screensharing as needed can work for you.

\- As you're starting out, reach out to small and medium size businesses like yourself. They like the one on one, "I'm dealing with someone like me" approach. They should not balk at expecting to pay $500 to $1500 a month for something they need, or to have you on call.

If you want help crafting such a pitch, I can help you. I have helped friends learn to win small contracts on CL, etc, and work their way up. I believe that there's some level of business skills you learn here that here that are hard to learn anywhere else. Once you know you can make a relationship and deliver value, possibilities can open up.

Hope some of this was useful or at least interesting, if anyone has any questions, feel free to get in touch.

</comment><comment><USER46> I recently started a company providing contract system administration work, honestly the first contract was a reference from when I was working for salary and word of mouth caused it to spread from there. I think the key things to think about are as follows.

0\. Do some market research, what does your competition charge? What do you offer that they don't? If you don't have a way to differentiate yourself how can you package what you offer to make it seem better than what they are offering, if you can't dazzle with brilliance baffle with bullshit.

1\. What do your customers want? You know what they need, but what do they want? Designers often seem to design to impress other designers, programmers enjoy pulling neat hacks that other programmers admire, and system admins love building cool stuff that integrates some of the latest automation, but are these things what your customers want? If it is great! Just make sure to gut check yourself when you put together what services you offer to make sure you aren't just following your own fantasies of what you wish work was like. Now that you know what they want figure out how to sell them on the cool stuff you enjoy doing as well as long as it doesn't get in the way of the initial goals they have. Yes you may know better than them in regards to what they need in some respects but they know their business case better than you, if you can meet in the middle you will get plenty of referrals.

2\. Advertise, advertise, advertise. I used a combination of spotify ads and google ad words initially. The number one thing to remember about adwords is, don't lock yourself into just the keywords you think should work. Find out what business people would type into google when searching and target those words.

3\. This is something a lot of people might disagree with but, I over book myself, not to the extent that the work suffers but to the extend that my work home life blurs and it's mildly stressful. You never know when a client might flake out and having that cushion will save you when your clients nephew takes a course on youtube and thinks he is now a $your_job_here. I make my money over a 6 month time period and then take 6 months off. I have a much closer relationship to my children and my spouse and over all I'm much happier, the ability to travel is really nice as well.

Keep your main revenue stream until you can at least get a few paying clients then shove off but remember you will need to think about health insurance if you are in the U.S. (I infer from the title you are in London) if you do have to worry about insurance and are in the U.S. you can look into <http://www.freelancersunion.org/> consider it leverage when buying insurance. Also keep in mind there is significant overhead from book keeping I was shocked at the number of hours it took, I said screw it and automated the whole process.

Also keep in mind they can pay contract workers so well for a few reasons, it's results based, they don't have to pay for insurance or other benefits, there is no training budget involved.

Still it's the best decision you can make, you are your own master though and it feels amazing.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER47> quit (or get fired)</comment>


Gangnam Style is no longer the most-played video on YouTube - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40566816 <comment><AUTHOR> "The surreal video became so popular that it "broke" YouTube's play counter, exceeding the maximum possible number of views (2,147,483,647), and forcing the company to rewrite its code."</comment>


Meetro Working to Make Forum Creation Dead Simple - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/10/26/meetro-working-to-make-forum-creation-dead-simple/ <comment><USER2> i wonder if the users who create and admin the forums will be able to generate and keep ad revenue

could be pretty cool

not sure why they are announcing it 2 months pre launch though, probably pretty trivial for a hacker to replicate</comment>