Ask HN: What do you spend money on that greatly increases your quality of life - <AUTHOR> What do you spend your money on that greatly increases your quality of life? Is it books, good coffee, Uber/Lyft, massages, gym memberships, vacations, etc? <comment><USER2> I had a discussion with a friend about that subject.

I told him that what money brings in is highly non-linear.

When you start in life, every euro counts. It is the "to cinema or not cinema" (or whatever you like). It also mean substantial changes in housing.

Then comes a moment you are on a plateau (my case today). I own a house (payed off), a car, have a family, and earn enough to be secure. I know that I will be able to afford two extra rents when my children leave for university. That I can travel the world if I want to without any big hit on my budget, etc. In short : a comfortable life.

It would take a significant amount of money (raise) to move up in my chart (first class travel everywhere, or a jet, or a yacht or several apartments worldwide).

So money cannot buy me much more than I have today - the recent great, great improvement was to have someone come and clean the house twice a week.

Since I am rather frugal, my own definition of "comfortably rich" is to be able to go to any normal store and not check the prices of what I am buying , especially to compare two products and decide on the cheaper one.

EDIT: I was once offered the possibility to, as I put it, move up in my chart. A golden opportunity with a fantastic salary in what looks like a nice company. I did not take it because it would have meant more business travel, wearing a suit all the time, etc. My family and comfort is more important. But this is only because I am today at this plateau which is enough for me. I would have taken it if that meant moving from "struggling" to "stable".

</comment><comment><USER3> Working four days a week. Effectively I pay 20% of my salary to buy an extra non-working day every week. This is a massive QoL improvement (a) because it keeps my RSI from being unbearable and (b) because of all the fun stuff you can do with that extra day...

<comment><USER4> How did you negotiate that with your employer, and also are you doing contract/constancy work where an arrangement like that is slightly more realistic?

<comment><USER3> No, I'm doing what I would classify as "normal" developer work. Negotiation: I have had (on a sample size of 1) no luck getting this at initial employment, but I have managed (sample size of 2) to arrange it after working somewhere for a couple of years and building up trust and a reputation as an employee worth hanging on to. At that point I was able to get 4-day working set up following an RSI episode bad enough that I had to be signed off work for a few months and then got a medical recommendation for reduced hours, which my employer accepted.

Incidentally, this kind of thing is why I'm definitely not in the "job hop every year or two" camp.

<comment><USER5> Whereas some here are asking whether to switch from full-time to part-time, I have the reverse situation right now. I was hired by my current employer on a 70% part-time basis (i.e., 28 hours per week) since I'm still finishing my degree. That is nearly done now (thesis is submitted, only the presentation is left), and I'm struggling with the question whether to pursue going back to full-time. The extra money (70% part-time also means 70% pay) would be nice to build up assets, but OTOH I feel like my time is more valuable in my own hands at this point (I'm in my late twenties).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For me these are the best places not to compromise...

First: shoes, jacket, headphones.

Then: bed, computer, stereo.

Then: floor, kitchen, bathroom.

Then: tools, truck, yard, garden, grill.

Last: a good view and plenty of time to enjoy it.

Always remember above all else good health and good friends are worth pursuing.

<comment><USER7> Upvote for the view! I think most people don't realize how important it is to have something to look at.

<comment><USER8> On the other side - you forget about it in one month and don't even notice the good view.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've noticed that I'm the happiest when I have a sense of being intensely alive. Therefore investing in experiences has a compounding effect where you gain triple-pack utility from the experience itself, the memories it grants you, and the satisfaction of having the personal impression of a life being well lived.

Regarding material possessions, simply follow the rule of use. The more you use an item, the higher its quality should be. Computers and its peripherals, bed and bedding, shoes, glasses, audio equipment, e-reader...

</comment><comment><USER10> \- Savings: a few months' living expenses in a readily available cash account. What happens when you suddenly finding yourself having to pay a few hundred or thousand bucks for an emergency? Not having savings means "Panic mode / scrimp and save / have to get credit". Having savings means "a number in my back statement changes, but does not really affect me"

\- Access to experts: anything from doctors to lawyers or accountants to a bike mechanic or plumber. When you're faced with a hard problem, it's really comforting to know that you can get expert help rather than having to meddle through yourself.

\- Time: Could be hiring a cleaning lady, so you don't have to spend time on your weekend cleaning your house. Or daycare for the kids, so you can get a break from watching the kids and do grown-up things for a while. Or just taking an extended unpaid vacation to unwind for a bit.

</comment><comment><USER11> Gym - what gym has the best equipment for me to get to my fitness goals

Bicycle - which bike is going to make my daily commute the most enjoyable? Weight, reliability etc.

Clothes - when I'm on my bike and it starts raining what rain jacket gives me the no movement resistance while keeping me dry?

Skills - what books, websites, subscriptions can I get to learn new skills the most efficient way

There's a bunch more. Each of these categories are a problem I have, an experience I want to maximise or a direction I want to take myself.

You'll notice that the people that have the best quality of life are the people who understand their needs. Money to them is just a tool to meet their needs.

<comment><USER2> I was recently wondering about the bike. I commute 15 km each way and have a cheapo bike. I could afford way better (say , a 5000€ one compared to the 300€ I currently own) but has always wondered about the actual improvement.

I tried a new bike a few times on my commute and yes, it may have been better but not that significantly. The 15 km are mostly flat, save for a step part of a few hundred meters, and 1/3 of the path is in a forest (the other is on well separated bike paths).

I was wondering if a super bike is actually and objectively worth the investment (I know that some peine just live nice bikes and that's great, I am more thinking about the case of someone who sees them as a pure commodity)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Hiring people to do all the chores that are easy to delegate so I have as much free time as possible.

</comment><comment><USER13> I measure my quality of life in experiences, so there are 2 issues here: good health and knowing what makes you happy. I'm going to focus on the first one because it is more generic.

It depends on what you're doing. I spend most of my day sitting in front of a computer: around 9 hours with some small breaks. Another good portion of my time goes to sleeping, so a great bed, pillow, chair and desk are a must. If you make compromises with any of them - you'll have neck/back pain.

Food is another thing to spend some money on: especially fresh fruits and vegetables. If you're a caffeine junkie like me - a good coffee will make a huge difference.

Another thing to consider is a suitable sport. It doesn't have to be a gym (I find gym borring), it can be any sport you find satisfying. I put it in the list because some sports can get really expensive but might or might not be worth it, it depends on you.

I'll just sketch some non-health related life improvers: trips, bike riding, hiking, music lessons, volunteering - anything that takes you out of your routine and makes you happy.

<comment><USER14> How do you find a good chair? I personally want to try a chair it before buying it. But I find all the local stores have cheap chairs that last a year or so.

<comment><USER15> For office work: [http://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/performance- wor...](http://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/performance-work- chairs/aeron-chairs.html)

For relaxation: [http://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge- seating/...](http://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/lounge- seating/eames-lounge-chair-and-ottoman.html)

disclaimer: I have the first, I want the second ;-)

<comment><USER16> The Herman Miller Embody is really great too.

<comment><USER17> This is what I have. I had a Mirra, Aeron, and Steelcase Leap.

The Mirra was fine, nothing special.

The Aaron was horrible. Yes, I had it fit for the right size.

The Steelcase Leap and Embody are both top tier. You can almost argue the Leap is superior since you can get it in leather, making it easy to keep clean and free of stains and you can get it with a headrest.

They also make a Leap Lounge and it's sublime. I wouldn't mind the Herman Miller lounger though.

Either way, you can't go wrong. You have to find out what fits you best. Many rave and swear by the Aeron, but for me it was terrible and uncomfortable. The Embody and Steelcase Leap are sublime to me though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> A good home, everything I need to be comfortable at home like a good bed. I also try to buy quality items when it's something I use often.

</comment><comment><USER19> 1\. Food; I love cooking from fresh and find it immensely relaxing 2\. Travelling; my partner is a school teacher and has 12 weeks holiday a year, we try to maximise that time by travelling around the world

</comment><comment><USER20> Improvement of life quality to spent money ratio, order by desc, two categories:

cheap things:

\- a comfortable bed and a high quality bedding,

\- a computer screen, mouse and keyboard,

\- regular cleaning service in my home,

\- books

expensive, but greatly improving my life quality:

\- skiing,

\- my family,

\- a comfortable and well designed house.

</comment><comment><USER21> For me I would say travel increases my quality of life above all else. Being able to go somewhere even for a weekend and being able to clear my mind and relax is one of my greatest investments. Other than that saving up for quality products (computer, monitor, bed, etc.) greatly benefits my quality of life since I don't have to replace things as often, still using a keyboard I bought 10+ years ago.

</comment><comment><USER22> Here are some things I've stopped spending money on lately, without decreasing my quality of life:

* Stopped spending money on public transport. Now I just ride my bike everywhere. positive financial ROI within a few months (even including the occasional expensive bike repair) + benefits to mental and physical health.

* Stopped spending money buying books, now I just borrow and read books from public libraries. It's free.

* I only eat out about 10% as often as a few years ago. Just need to spend a bit of time on weekends for meal prep and being a bit more organised.

With a longer-term time horizon, if you have surplus money, you can choose to spend some of it on investments that will give you a source of income decoupled from the time you need to spend at work. That doesn't do anything for your quality of life in the short term (if anything it will make it worse if you are working to save now for the future) but that's traded off against expected improvements in quality of life in the future (e.g. you can retire or switch to doing contract work for half the year and whatever you like for the rest).

<comment><USER5> > Stopped spending money on public transport

How expensive is public transit in your area? And do you bike when the weather is bad (i.e. precipitation or glaze)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Anything that lasts beyond the moment.

Food, sex, alcohol, etc... all that stuff can be the greatest high for a very short amount of time, and then I tend to experience some sort of depression after. Overall, with those things the net balance is pretty even and it's not worth the headache. Though fighting those impulses is not easy.

The things that last beyond the moment take both money and effort, usually. Creative projects, improving relationships, education.

Sometimes there's a bit of crossover. I'm planning to do a creative film+vr project so I am investing in some gear and new toys... within that I'm playing some stuff and having a bit of fun though I know it will pale in comparison to the happiness that comes from creating something.

I agree with some of the other answers here vis-a-vis tools and utilities (headphones, grill, etc.)... not for exactly the same reason, e.g. a grill might just be for cooking food (let's ignore the community-party aspect of it), but those things keep bringing back returns so it's like an investment in many short-lived moments which is worthwhile too.

</comment><comment><USER24> Honestly, in hindsight, I am really bad at seeing the implications of my quality of life at the time of purchase. Part of it is due to changes in personal habits that I don't always foresee. For example, I play significantly fewer video games than when I was in college. But it's also due to my perception of what it should cost versus how much I use it. An example of that would be some of the nice clothing I own that I paid extra for. I wear it enough to justify the cost. Then there are the non-tangible things like vacations which have given me some amazing stories that I would not have imagined.

Though that speaks more to the concern over the quality of what I get, or whether I should own or rent something. In practice, as a young, single, physically active engineer who lives in the Bay area, (aside from clothes, food, shelter, and transportation,) I get my 80% value out of the following:

Running shoes, a bike, a good backpack, a gym membership, Spotify premium, a good computer or two, a good smartphone, and the more than occasional airline reservation.

</comment><comment><USER25> Travel. Every experience feels like a hard reset on my perceptions of how things should be, even in cultures similar to my own.

Sometimes I'll miss the way things are back home. Other times I'll wish that we'd adopt some of their values, but either way, it opens up the conversation about these ideas and how things can be approached differently.

</comment><comment><USER26> Experiences. Whether it's travel, an event, spending time with friends, etc.

I also think spending money to live in a comfortable apartment or home close to work is extremely important. I used to commute from SF to SV one hour each way. Now I live 10 min from work and my quality of life has significantly improved.

</comment><comment><USER27> The occasional piece of music gear...

Once upon a time, I tried to be a rock star, and that didn't work out, so I pursued a career in a secondary passion... IT. That pretty much worked out, and I'm now comfortable.

Music remains my primary passion, though. I'm not particularly good at it, but I find the acts of creating arrangements, writing lyrics, and engineering mixes therapeutic and quite satisfying.

So although I remain pretty frugal with it (it is just a hobby at this point, after all), the occasional piece of "gear": a new audio interface, midi controller, VST, instrument, sample bank, etc... is rewarding and helps to keep me sane and happy.

</comment><comment><USER28> I have a few things that I have luxury versions of, so they are not just things, but also become a bit of a hobby, which makes them more fun to use, and the thing is that I use them daily:

\- A good manual coffee machine.

\- A kokomo barbecue.

\- A decent German car for commuting.

</comment><comment><USER29> Sending the kids out of the house for a day. Best investment ever.

</comment><comment><USER30> Rent in the Bay Area (we live about 5 years in the future) ;)

</comment><comment><USER31> Tobacco. Yesterday i spent $32 on tobacco. 50 grams of fine cut rolling tobacco. About 80 cigarettes I can make from that. I used to be an occasional smoker but years back my brain switched into craving mode. The system is then so wisely arranged that when I improve my quality of life with a few dollars worth of dried leaves, I at the same time contribute about thirty dollars worth of quality to society.

<comment><USER5> > I at the same time contribute about thirty dollars worth of quality to > society.

Did you factor in the increased healthcare costs from your smoking? These frequently outweigh any money recovered from tobacco taxes.

<comment><USER31> What is your point? Healthcare greatly increases quality of life.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Best single investment ever on personal well being? I trained with a personal trainer for a few months. I'd been more or less a couch potato for three decades. Now I actually know what to do to keep at least somewhat in shape. I specified that I wanted a body weight exercises based regimen and nothing based on fixed gym equipment and we did that.

<comment><USER33> I found workout regimes with this very useful (as you mentioned body weight training), along with a reasonable diet plan: [https://darebee.com/](https://darebee.com/) Can't say anything about results yet, but I think I'm on my way to getting there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I spend money on (that has a good ROI in terms of quality of life for me):

\- Good wireless speakers (Sonos) and a Spotify subscription

\- Audio books (Audible)

\- Golf. Not only is it good exercise, gets me outside away from a computer, and fun but also has some tangible business benefits (at least in the US, not sure about elsewhere)

</comment><comment><USER35> Off the top of my head: Good food, Uber/Lyft, Gym.

Sometimes my life is just a cycle of those 3 things :)

</comment><comment><USER36> Mechanical Turk and Fiverr

<comment><USER15> What do you use Mechanical Turk for? I'm curious as to how a service like can be used in your personal life

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Trips to the coffee shop with the wife for 'work dates.' Winter accouterments (good parka, gloves, hat, snow tires). My accountant, and any way I can trade money for time.

</comment><comment><USER38> Travel. Usually plane tickets open the most doors.

I'm happy to save on accommodation and food costs if it means more money to spend on experiences and time with people where I'm traveling.

</comment><comment><USER39> My wife, splash out here and there and my life is way more relaxed

</comment><comment><USER40> Lets just say... a weekend trip to Colorado definitely helps me with quality of life, and I certainly don't mind spending some money when I go there.

<comment><USER41> Too euphemistic for me, is this a pot (cannabis) reference?

<comment><USER40> Haha, hiking in mountains helps me relax a lot. But whatever else people find up in Colorado... must be enjoyable too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Surprisingly - Soylent. It saves a lot of eating time. No, a LOT of eating time. Plus it is probably a little healthier than what I'd eat otherwise.

<comment><USER43> Soylent is the single saddest thing i've ever heard of. eating is fun. cooking is fun. treating my body like a truck and pumping myself full of gas is just sad.

<comment><USER44> I'm torn on this.

I love cooking, am good at it, and I think I have quite a refined taste, but what tastes good isn't often the most healthy option.

I fully agree that life should be enjoyable, but I'm not sure that every aspect has to.

I like your truck analogy. Isn't the purpose of the truck, or rather what it does best, driving at its full capacity? That's why you only pump it full of gas, and not tequila or cream.

I'm currently in worse shape than I was a few years ago, while eating more "fun". But in all honesty I got much more enjoyment out of being more fit, less tired, stronger, clearer head, and frankly looking in the mirror too.

I'll take any of that enjoyment over fleeting meals. If I could have both, great, but if not, self restraint and delayed gratification is a reward in itself.

Disclaimer: This isn't specifically about Soylent, which I have yet to try, but about the concept of eating less exciting but healthy foods.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Work-life balance and choosing employment based on colleagues, sensible pace of work, sense of doing good and interesting tech instead of paycheck.

</comment><comment><USER46> Vacations - Somehow I feel people overlook the need for taking time out for themselves and spending quality time outside office.

</comment><comment><USER47> Instant Pot. More veggie meals for less.

</comment><comment><USER48> first: savings second: food - go plant based third: all those tai chi classes which grew into a lifelong daily practice for health

</comment><comment><USER49> A nice chocolate bar about once a month.

</comment><comment><USER50> Rock climbing and (mostly audio) books.

</comment><comment><USER51> A private office, not far from home.

</comment><comment> King-Aaron My race car

</comment><comment><USER52> A NAS and an Apple tv

</comment><comment><USER53> Good pair of suit

</comment><comment><USER54> \- Fruits

\- Meditation training

\- Books

\- Head phones

</comment><comment><USER55> Nothing.

</comment><comment><USER56> * Bluetooth headset * A good coffee machine and a grinder * A trailer hook and a bike rack for the car</comment>


Moot's Media Sharing And Editing Community Canvas Opens Its Doors To The Public - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/06/moots-media-sharing-and-editing-community-canvas-opens-its-doors-to-the-public/ <comment><USER2> This is going to be huge, people. Sign up now.

</comment><comment><USER3> Yay! (I am also an investor in this.)

</comment><comment><USER4> Yay (I am also an epic troll in this.)

</comment><comment><USER5> FUCK YEAH, SEAKING

<comment><USER6> POKEFIST</comment></comment>


Ask HN: With social media, how do you deal with FOMO on information? - <AUTHOR> Especially with twitter, consuming information feels like the red queen effect, it just feels like chasing, chasing, chasing...How do you deal with it? <comment><USER2> I totally empathize that a steady stream of small rewards is addicting. Social media, like MMOs, like gambling is designed to feed you this steady stream of small rewards and keep you clicking, playing, betting.

It is up to you to take a step back and ask yourself, what would you truly have missed by simply not participating in Twitter yesterday? Perhaps if you can view the situation as it having no possible way for you to "win" then you can re-frame things in a more healthy light.

Remember, you will never be "the best" at Twitter, nor will you be able to win by consuming all available information. There is no win, there is no race. Consume to be entertained and move on. If you ever feel compelled to consume then it is time to take a long break.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, this helps.</comment></comment>


Google teams with Disney to make intergalactic cartoon to inspire kids to code - <AUTHOR> http://www.geekwire.com/2015/google-teams-disney-make-intergalactic-cartoon-inspire-kids-code/

<comment><USER2> I'm in my late 20's and kind of excited about this... Wait, OLIVIA MUNN!? Sold.</comment>


More Recycling Won't Solve Plastic Pollution - <AUTHOR> https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/more-recycling-wont-solve-plastic-pollution/ <comment><USER2> A lot of it seems to be abandoned fishing gear. Another 20% is from the 2011 Japan tsunami, which can't be helped by recycling. [https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific- ga...](https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/great-pacific-garbage- patch-plastics-environment/)

<comment><USER3> I found it crazy just how much fishing lines, hooks, sinkers, etc end up in just a small river.. this guy on YouTube dives for and cleans them up as well as finding all manner of iPhones, GoPros, Knives, etc... [https://www.youtube.com/user/DALLMYD](https://www.youtube.com/user/DALLMYD)

If you get that in a small narrow river (admittedly it's a little rocky but still) you can only imagine what ends up in the oceans etc.</comment></comment>


Fire a software engineer for working on side projects during office hours? - <AUTHOR> https://www.quora.com/Should-I-fire-a-software-engineer-for-always-working-on-his-side-projects-during-office-hours?share=1 <comment><USER2> The author lost me. TL;DR; it depends on the contract. If you're paying for 9am-5pm and they're working on other projects during that time you've not approved, yes. If they're doing other work outside of work hours, it depends on the contract. If they're hourly/contractual and billing your for hours to work on projects you've not approved, yes. I've worked for companies, although stipulating a 9-5 work period stated that they owned all works created by me, unless otherwise cleared by legal (very common in finance). I had to ahead of time have clearance on any FOSS contributions by legal. It was a pain in the ass and net result was I didn't bother unless there was a critical isuse.</comment>


The Myth of Blubber Town, an Arctic Metropolis - <AUTHOR> https://publicdomainreview.org/2019/07/10/the-myth-of-blubber-town-an-arctic-metropolis/ <comment><USER2> For the ones, like me, that didn't know: "blubber" is the fat of sea mammals. Whalers used to hunt whales to extract blubber, then transform it into oil (used for candles, fuel, etc).

</comment><comment><USER3> Ok that was a really fun read. It's amazing how many random things like this persist for centuries despite tons of evidence to the contrary existing.</comment>


Websites 'must be saved for history' - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/25/preserving-digital-archive <comment><USER2> <http://archive.org> ?

<comment><USER3> Yes, I was surprised that it got no mention in the article. Still, it isn't a great idea to rely too much on any one source for all of this information. I do think that there is a very real problem caused by the lack of hard copies for most of our data. A lot of what we know about history comes to us in the form of written records, especially things such as letters or private journals. Computer communication works great at the time of use, but I do think that the general public needs to be more aware of the need to create permanent hard copies of anything that they might want to be saved for the future.

<comment><USER4> Couldn't agree more. I think there are some fascinating areas for research here. I was able to find this: <http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/rothenberg/research.html> which is talking about how we can preserve digital documents for the future by creating a well- specified emulator of current software.

But short of dumping data to a machine-readable but paper-based (or microfilm) format, I don't think there are any really long-lasting options out there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> One problem is that ~90% of all published material is little better than white noise that should land in the bit bucket. The big problem is which ~10% is worth saving. The answer will be very different for each of us.

Another problem is that its hard enough to find something of significance in our current avalanche of bits. Imagine what it will be like after a few decades of exponential increase of essentially white noise. We will be saturated with bits we call information but will be unable to extract knowledge or understanding from it.

You could be better informed by listening to static on the radio. At least you could tell that a thunder storm is approaching.

</comment><comment><USER6> Our information age will end up being rather ephemeral <http://titocosta.tumblr.com/post/73083179/we-are-atlantis>

<comment><USER7> No. What that misses is that while such formats are no longer popular, we haven't lost knowledge of how to read them.

My computer can't play tapes. But if I want to read a tape, I know exactly how I would go about having a tape played.

Besides, once information becomes about the specific file type on a hard drive, no reader is necessary. An mp3 file can be read by any computer with an mp3 player.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I always wondered, who pays for the saving of webpages?

<comment><USER9> If it's being proposed in the Grauniad: the taxpayer.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Remote Job Rocks – The simplest remote job board on the web - <AUTHOR> https://www.remotejob.rocks/ <comment><USER2> I like it, pretty nice! Just used it

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!(^^)/

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Surely the 'allows remote' column is redundant?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not always:)</comment></comment>


Why is that some people say 'if a Haskell program compiles, it probably works'? - <AUTHOR> https://www.quora.com/Why-is-that-some-people-say-that-if-a-Haskell-program-compiles-it-probably-works?share=1 <comment><USER2> Funny enough, six months in I've found nearly the same experience with Rust. There's still logic bugs and interface expectations to deal with (accidentally broke an implicit contract in some code last week!) but my confidence in the code is extremely high.

I've found this to be interesting when jumping back to Java code - it's nowhere near as likely that the code just works if it compiles (though that was lightyears ahead of other programming languages).

<comment><USER3> Even though they hide it by using different names (probably to avoid scaring off people), Rust is heavily inspired by Haskell, so that doesn't surprise me at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think a lot of these people go to Haskell direct from scripting language backgrounds, and thus have little experience of static type systems before that. You can see the same thing with Go: it's very apparent a lot of programmers praising how productive and consistent it makes their codebase are comparing it to something like Python or JavaScript.

In fact the top answer says:

 _Look, I have a lot of experience using Haskell. I understand how often code doesn't really work after it typechecks. I never say "it typechecks so it works" with a completely straight face. But I also have a lot of experience with Python and JavaScript._

So these comments aren't really about Haskell in my view. People would get the same feel from lots of languages with decent type systems if they came from a scripting language background. I often find my code works first time in Kotlin, and the times when it doesn't only rarely things that a more sophisticated type system would have caught.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> similar thread on HN "If programm compiles - it almost always just works" [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17933844](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17933844)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've often had this _experience_ , even in Java's less expressive type-system.

Following dynamic typing folks, I checked and I found that most of the type errors wouldn't have mattered anyway. I was mostly "pleasing the compiler".

So I wonder if some _correlation_ is going on as well, to do with personality or development style, to cause this experience?

Perhaps... people who like types are extra finicky/perfectionistic, so their code tends to more carefully thought-out (which takes longer). And they try to structure code so it can be verified as they go along.

Also, each time you fix a compiler error, you are engaging with the codebase, making it easier to spot logic/semantic errors.

e.g. for myself, I like to have a complete mental model before major coding; break it down into simpler parts; do experimental coding to check ideas I'm not sure of; and try to avoid complex and difficult-to-track-down bugs by coding a little at a time (so if there is a bug, it's related to what I just added).

      tl;dr type-lovers are also bug-aversive

<comment><USER3> Having programmed both in Haskell and Java, my experience is very different.

In Java you have to "please the compiler" all of the time. Most of the types you add don't help in finding bugs. The type system is not expressive enough for real general types, because subtyping gets in the way.

In Haskell, the experience is very different: Writing down a general type first guides you in writing the code. Or, conversely, writing down the code first and then looking at the inferred type sometimes gives you clues to modify your code to make it better. The Haskell syntax is more terse, so a lot more trivial errors (typos etc.) are caught by the type checker. And the type checker really shines when refactoring code.

And my code is actually not "bug-aversive", I do make a lot of trivial mistakes all of the time. And I'm glad when the type checker catches them.

<comment><USER5> _And my code is actually not "bug-aversive", I do make a lot of trivial mistakes all of the time. And I'm glad when the type checker catches them._

I'm in this camp too. I love strong static types because I know I'm not particularly obsessive about fine details and can sometimes be sloppy in that respect. Compilers pick up the slack where my attention to detail falls short.

<comment><AUTHOR> I make a lot of silly mistakes too. But because I understand the code (I'm careful there, _bug-aversive_ ), the cause is (almost always) instantly obvious.

Though this undermines the thesis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Except when it comes to File IO, I think you need to use bracket pattern for lack of linear types, but maybe this is fixed now?</comment>


Boomtown Seattle: Why we move here – and how we're all in it together - <AUTHOR> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/boomtown-seattle-why-we-move-here-and-how-were-all-in-it-together/ <comment><USER3> I moved here and I enjoy it. Its getting expensive very quickly though, and there are almost zero houses or condos on the market, so most likely I will never be able to buy, even on an engineers salary. All the new construction is luxury apartments, not condos.

All after is from a 20-30-somethings perspective: there's also very few areas within the city that are "city-like" in terms of having people around and things to do after work. Belltown, Cap Hill and Fremont are the hangouts - <USER2> you live far away from those its very much like living in the suburbs. South Lake Union (Amazon City) is a GHOST town after dark - Amazon has failed pretty hard at creating any sense of culture or livable space as the only thing to do is get gouged by restaurants that are paying far too much in rent.

SLU has:

* No cheap food

* No entertainment

* No "hangout" spots except inside of the expensive restaurants

Even a beer garden or some food stalls around one of their courts would be a huge improvement.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's a great feel good article by Evan Bush, in a publication that usually talks about growing pains more than benefits of growth. I hope this article makes recent transplants feel a little more welcome during the dark cloudy winter.

</comment><comment><USER5> [http://archive.is/zA04x](http://archive.is/zA04x)

<comment><USER6> Thanks for sharing!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've been in Seattle for three years now, and I'm moving out of state in a month. Why?

first, they're doing everything wrong. (Here's an article that explains what most towns in America get wrong: [https://granolashotgun.com/2017/11/13/mind- the-gap-2/](https://granolashotgun.com/2017/11/13/mind-the-gap-2/))

\- South Lake Union could have been rebuilt with narrow European-style streets ([https://twitter.com/SteveDombek/status/593997707481481217](https://twitter.com/SteveDombek/status/593997707481481217)). but instead they left all of their old regulations in place, which meant that they ended up building it for cars instead of people.

\- all of the activated alley projects have failed. the one in Chinatown failed because most of the street died from a museum they put in. another one in the university district only has a single coffee shop in it

\- Tokyo offers people nice 1BR apartments for roughly $900-1000 a month, because they are pro-development. that same apartment costs me $2k a month in Seattle

\- _spending_ by the city of Seattle has doubled over the last few years, but the population did not double. this means that taxes will eventually be raised to fill the gap. I'm not my brother's keeper, so I'm moving to another low-tax state.

\- the city just put in an income tax on high earners. one of the things that helped me choose Washington state was the fact that there is no state income tax currently. the city's attempt to impose one bothers me because although I don't earn enough presently to have to pay into it, all they have to do is tweak the brackets to get me later on in the future.

\- the city has done next to nothing to remove restrictions on the heights of new buildings downtown. it also has made it nearly impossible to do mixed-use arrangements inside towers.

\- a massive 9.0 or greater earthquake is an eventuality. there are a large number of old buildings in Pioneer square that will not survive this earthquake without being retrofitted with base isolation technology. this is an extremely expensive undertaking, and absolutely NOTHING is happening on that front. at the same time, the city is increasing spending on handouts for the poor, on bailing out failed bikeshare companies (that happen to be politically connected to the city council...), etc. they shouldn't be providing these handouts or spending millions on bailing out their friends. instead, they should be cutting back spending and certain regulations (again, see [https://granolashotgun.com/2017/11/13/mind-the- gap-2/](https://granolashotgun.com/2017/11/13/mind-the-gap-2/)) so that people can rebuild Pioneer Square and save it from the coming catastrophe.

\- taxes on ridesharing? why?! if you want to get rid of cars, as I do, hurting ridesharing won't get you there.

\- they should be selling off surface street lanes to streetcar startups so that we have better ways of getting around, and not taking 25 years to do it (Ballard won't get a train running to it for another 25 years, according to the latest ST3 plan). spending billions on digging tunnels as they do now, on projects that will not be completed for decades, is a waste. the Boring Company can do in a week what Seattle can do in a year.

\- I attended a city council meeting last year. Sawant ran it like a socialist political rally - it wasn't a place where opposing views were at all welcome. she _lusts_ for ever more power.

<comment><USER8> It feels like some of this is a few months out of date. A massive city wide rezoning plan was just enacted that will increase heights and density in many of the 'urban villages'. This will concentrate people and add more power to efforts to accelerate transit spending. ST3 is currently funded for sequential development but could be done in parallel with more money. Income tax was struck down.

I'm an optimist (who stands to be very well rewarded by the new train line) and I'm hoping the rezoning and accelerated influx leads to a big income boost that can be forced by the voters to prioritize transit.

Sure, I'm all for Musk coming in and digging us out.

<comment><USER3> I have yet to see any changes in my urban village - the upzone feels like it'll just bring more luxury apartments and do nothing for housing stock. Gosh if I could afford one of these $1,000,000 townhomes though.</comment></comment></comment>


What is your site worth? - <AUTHOR> http://www.dnscoop.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> (from Digg. Currently suffering from the Digg-effect, but much more relevant to this group than the digg crowd)</comment>


Programming Wisdom Center - <AUTHOR> http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/

<comment><USER2> I recommend changing the link to point to a permanent archive of Geocities, such as <http://reocities.com/tablizer/>

<comment><AUTHOR> i thought Reocities' header detracted from the experience, but thank you the permalink all the same</comment></comment>


13 Year Olds May Be Using Facebook Less, But They Aren't Going Anywhere - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/the-facebook/d07c21617b5a

<comment><USER2> When I was a kid, I hated nothing more than having to listen to some blowhard adult tell me "You'll agree with me when you're my age." So arrogant. And as an adult, looking back on all the times this was said to me, I realize so many of their predictions were wrong.

Where does this guy get off telling teens "you're going to grow up and use facebook, and you're going to like it".

It wasn't that long ago when myspace seemed unstoppable. Facebook could die off just as easily. We can't know for sure.</comment>


Neighborhoods for moving to SF or near SF? - <AUTHOR>

What are the best neighborhoods that YC startups live out of?
My friends and I are considering a move from New Jersey to San Francisco just for the benefit of making friends with & being around like-minded people.
We're looking for the best balance in cheap housing & proximity to startup areas. Can you guys offer up any suggestions? Thanks so much. <comment><USER2> I'm in the inner sunset district near UCSF. Foggy but cheaper because of the fog. Excellent lite rail public transportation access to anywhere in the city. Mission district is more of an art community. Depends if you want to be near the GG park or pavement.

<comment><USER3> Is it really that foggy?

<comment><USER2> only during the summer month July to August.. built in air conditioning. ;-D

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Someone started a wiki on this a while back: <http://svstartup.com/w/Main_Page>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you so much.</comment></comment>


Melting Greenland Is Awash in Sand - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/07/01/climate/greenland-glacier-melting-sand.html <comment><USER3> > A large sand-exporting industry could help reduce this subsidy, which would > be critical to Greenland eventually becoming independent.

I think the situation in Greenland is very interesting - and quite sad. Independence is a complete pipedream. Greenland can only be independent once its large reserves of ressources open up. - At that point, it would suddenly become interesting to imperialist states like the US, China and Russia - <USER2> it would be in no position to defend itself.

The local population of Greenland for the most part does not want to be associated with Denmark and the EU, but at the same time it is their best shot at retaining autonomy and increasing their standards of living. I really hope that in the future there will be some more forms of positive engagement.

<comment><USER4> Greenlandic politics is held captured by a small group of corrupt populists. The population outside the city elites lives in dire poverty with massive social problems such as violence, incest, alcoholism ... And the Danish politicians are too coward to do anything about it.

Why do the Americans want to buy this place? We already let you do anything you want with it military wise. And the stuff you can dig out of the ground, you can dig it out other places much cheaper.

<comment><USER5> I believe it is Trump who wants to buy it, not US government.

<comment><USER6> Or he's just floating distractions to flip the news cycle.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Lesson I take: even the worst catastrophes are a source of profit. Concrete making is one of the worst CO2 emitting industries, and is killing us. Sand was lacking, but despair not: we can go on thanks to melting ice! The Titanic is sinking but, hey, look, a new crate of champagne! What's not to love?

Really, it's upsetting. I'm desperate.

<comment><USER8> Desperate for what? It's a fact that capitalism can accommodate any catastrophe and help those who have capital profit from it. That's why the rich are not worried about global warming. They know eventually millions, maybe even billions will die, and the planet will be theirs for the taking. Imagine all the profit to be made from the creative destruction. They even know that no one will make them pay for it... all the capital that has been privatized that caused all the environmental damage, no one is going to go to them and say hey you have to pay for all this global warming and all these people suffering because of it. That boat has already sailed.

Same goes for rich nation vs. poor nations, the rich nations which industrialized and caused this mess will not have to pay for it, the poor nations that can't afford it will. Environmental destruction favors those who do the destruction as they have reaped the rewards by the time those who have not have to pay for it.

And maybe the retort is that this is too conspiratorial and no one ever meant for any of this to happen it just did out of self-interest. And if that's how schizophrenic your civilization is, in that it has no consciousness to see what it's doing and stuff just happens out of self-interest and good intentions. Then maybe you need to reconsider how you are doing things... and maybe you need a narrative to guide your decision making that paints the various actors for what they are rather than machines acting in self-interest.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> > Currently almost all sand is mined within 50 miles of where it is used, said > Jason C. Willett, a minerals commodity specialist with the United States > Geological Survey. "Once you move it any distance it then costs too much," > he said.

Basically this is mostly just an interesting talking point for climate change and science, and possibly for Greenland which has been in the news, and not yet a viable source for sand.

It's similar to all of the oil in the world that has been discovered and is accessible but is too expensive to mine.

<comment><USER10> Still, Australia already exports a _lot_ of sand to places like Singapore and the Arabian peninsula, so evidently it's not too expensive in all cases.

<comment><USER9> Yeah, its going to matter who's running out nearby in the meantime and for Greenland that could be northern Europe, east-coast Canada, and north east US.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I take it this is the right kind of sand?

Desert sand being buffeted by the wind is rounded, whilst coastal sand has sharper edges.

How often does desert sand end up on beaches? How can one check for the sharpness of sand, are the sand piles higher? Is it more abrasive?

<comment><USER12> >How often does desert sand end up on beaches?

Well, it feeds the Amazon from the Sahara. [https://www.wired.com/2015/02/sahara-keeps-amazon- green/](https://www.wired.com/2015/02/sahara-keeps-amazon-green/)

<comment><USER13> We get dust from the Sahara in the southern US as well.

[https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/dust- sahara/](https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/dust-sahara/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> > _The world makes a lot of concrete, more than 10 billion tons a year, and is > poised to make much more for a population that is forecast to grow by more > than 25 percent by 2050. That makes sand, which is about 40 percent of > concrete by weight, one of the most-used commodities in the world, and one > that is becoming harder to come by in some regions._

And the more concrete you make, the more sand you get. What's not to like? Could this be why the US government is currently trying to buy Greenland, perhaps?

<comment><AUTHOR> USA would be very smart to buy land, problem is that there are no sellers. History has proven that buying is worth it.

Example: USA is running almost a $1 TRILLION deficit. Make it two and "buy" Greenland. No rational person one would complain and Denmark /Greenlanders could set up a special fund ala Norway with the money [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway)

<comment><USER14> The better option is that Denmark buys USA. They could make it a great country. Really, Danish are open for that: [https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/denmark- offe...](https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/denmark-offers-to- buy-us)

<comment><USER15> If they don't include anti-democratic clauses in the contract the result will be exactly the same as if USA bought Denmark, that is Denmark will become a small state in USA.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It's also a rare source of fresh water that is virtually/completely lacking in microplastics -- so long as we dig to it, or harvest its melt before it mixes with a century's-worth of increasingly contaminated seasonal layering.

</comment><comment><USER17> jeez, what is up with all these bullshit video-js-scrolling nightmares of website?

<comment><USER18> The dominant site that does it is the NY Times, and generally their presentations are absolutely fantastic. Sometimes a bit of interactive media is more compelling than a wall of text.

<comment><USER19> > Sometimes a bit of interactive media is more compelling than a wall of text.

"Sometimes" means different things to different people. I'd prefer to read a well written article that paints a picture in my mind so it sticks. These scrolling js/video nightmares are a great way to allow for lower quality writing covered up by glitzy media. It's the McDonalds equivalent of information dissemination design. The fact that the NY Times does it is irrelevant. No thank you.

<comment><USER20> This seems like such a negative view of the NYT's effort to showcase some wonderful photography along with a well researched article. It is in no way low quality writing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> What if we don't destroy Greenland ecosystem?

<comment><USER22> What ecosystem? It's mostly frozen.</comment></comment>


Credit cards automatically providing updated card info to subscribing merchants - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/banking-information-shared-with-third-parties-1.5102931 <comment><USER2> Here's an interesting one: when your card is compromised and a new card number is issued, many banks will allow charges to continue using the old card number, provided the charges were occurring on an ongoing basis from that same merchant before the compromise. This is designed to prevent disruption of ongoing subscriptions in the event of compromise.

About a month ago I was reviewing my statement and noticed I was being billed by Spotify twice each month. I contacted Spotify to ask why they were billing me twice, and they asked for my account info and indicated my account was only being billed once. They then asked for the first 6 and last four of my car number to search that way, and again indicated I was only being billed once.

I sent them a screenshot of my online account statement at which point they agreed they were billing me twice but could not find the origin of the duplicate charge.

Finally it dawned on me - my bank had sent me a new card a long while back because of a suspected compromise. I'd had that card for a long time, and had the number memorized. I gave the old card number to them and bam - they found the source of the fraudulent transactions.

This means that even though my card number was compromised and cancelled, it can still be used for payment at any merchant for which I've had an ongoing subscription. Since these are merchants I do business with, it makes it doubly hard to notice the fraudulent charges as seeing "Spotify" or "Netflix" or whatever does not raise my eyebrow. Only in a careful month by month review did I pick up on the fraudulent transactions.

As a side note Spotify was very quick to reverse the duplicates and appear to have blocked that old card number from being used in their system again. Although a frustrating experience overall, they were very good to work with.

<comment><USER3> This happened to me in a different way: I was giving recurring payments to a .org. I kind of knew how much I wanted to give, but instead of a lump sum I figured I would do recurring for a year. It would give them a little more and seemed to make the guy at my door happy.

Now with this organization, you can donate via the website but to cancel a recurring donation requires a phone call. I called a couple of times to try to cancel but didn't reach anybody. I admit- I wasn't _too_ concerned (a good organization overall), but I was a little pissed nevertheless.

My credit card was skimmed, and I had it cut off. I figured this would solve my problem with the donations as well. Nope.

About two years later my wife (who actually handles the bills in the family) asked me if I wanted to continue those payments. I was pretty shocked- and persisted with the phone calls until I reached somebody to cancel.

Surprise!

I consider the "signing up can be done on the web, but canceling requires a human" to be a dark pattern.

<comment><USER4> _> I consider the "signing up can be done on the web, but canceling requires a human" to be a dark pattern._

And illegal in California as of last year. Hopefully them forcing companies to allow online cancellations will mean it's available for the rest of us too.

[https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers- cance...](https://www.cnet.com/news/companies-must-let-customers-cancel- subscriptions-online-california-law-says/)

<comment><USER5> Yes, this is the correct fix (well, not the part where everybody else has to rely on California but the rule that if you can sign up by method X you can cancel that way too)

My ex-employer was surprised that when they were obliged by law to stop routing everybody though a retention call center customer satisfaction improved. Too much of their own Kool Aid had been drunk, they'd persuaded themselves that customers wanted to be reminded of the benefits and offered other deals by a human so much that they'd hate even having the option to just press "Cancel" on the web site and leave that way.

It's an old Joel Spoelsky lesson, if you make leaving a pleasant experience that customer may come back some day. If not you're never going to see them again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This very program by visa allowed LA Fitness to steal several hundred dollars from me after I thought I had unsubscribed (they are also known for being unscrupulous about customer subscriptions). I thought I had cancelled my account, and was unworried about them continuing to charge me because I had recently gotten a new card number anyway. Well, unfortunately WF/Visa had given them my updated card info without my knowledge at a time when I didn't check my statements for several months (I audit charges MUCH more regularly now). They had kept my account active because I hadn't realized how convoluted their "unsub" process was and hadn't jumped through all of their over-the- phone hoops. Long story short I was out several hundred dollars over the course of almost a year, and the CC people were unwilling to help because the charges went undisputed for many months. A very angry visit back to the LA Fitness location was the only thing that remedied the continuing subscription, but I never got my money back. Caveat Emptor.

<comment><USER7> I worked for a small local company that stored credit card details in plain text. Including CVV. I brought it to there attention and the owner just hand waived me off. "The working system was working".

This is why cards like The Apple Card, which allows you to generate cards on the fly, is better for consumers. Just generate a card for LA Fitness and delete it when you close your account. This would eliminate a big chunk of fraud (including the shady shit LA fitness does) when your card details are sitting in many databases (some of which are not encrypted in anyway).

I'm not saying Apple card is great, just that feature of it.

<comment><USER8> That's a great feature and one I was looking for two decades ago - glad that somebody is finally using technology to empower users in this way and it should be the norm for all online card usage. I just lament that it has taken a 3rd party card offing to accommodate this and it is not being driven by the main card players (Visa, Mastercard).

<comment><USER9> Many banks (Citi, for example, has it at [https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual- Account-N...](https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account- Numbers)) have offered this for almost a decade. Visa and MC both support it at the network level globally, and are in fact the reasons that virtual account numbers work.

Consumers have routinely ignored this feature. Like so many security things, it's just not sexy enough for them to care and take on the hassle of older clunky solutions. The rise of digital payments and the movement away from a plastic card is making this much easier on people, by embedding the virtualization in the flow automatically instead of making users take steps to generate and manage.

But those who cared could always do this. It's just that so few cared.

<comment><USER10> Too few creditors offer the feature even though the networks support it. PNC wouldn't, their customer service lady looked at me like I had three heads when I asked her if they supported it. Amex's blue card used to and may still support one shot numbers that were very easy to generate online. Capital One's "Eno" browser plugin generates merchant-specific card numbers but the plugin makes it difficult to generate numbers to use off-web although the backend validates the merchant name and rejects charges that don't match the expected merchant as I discovered with a Dell-bound number on the Dell factory clearance site.

<comment><USER11> Capital One once denied me the ability to pay for a hotel room in Canada, after I had explicitly contacted them in advance with my travel plans, had booked the plane tickets on the same card, and paid some small items in the airport back home and upon arrival. Given how many transactions they process it should have been abundantly clear I was using my card in a normal manner.

I would never trust them to handle anything more complex like virtual card numbers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This isn't new and has existed for nearly 20 years. Visa's implementation is called VAU (Visa Account Updater[1]) and Mastercard's is ABU (Automatic Billing Updater[2]).

Issuers (banks) have to provide the details of these new cards to Visa/Mastercard, and the systems are certainly capable of updating the details of debit cards. It sounds like TD had a bug where they sent updates for cards which they shouldn't have. ie: TD broke their own rule about only enrolling credit cards.

Card details which do not automatically update are really frustrating for customers – especially on services like Uber. In nearly all cases the customer is going to go and give the merchant their new card details anyway. My understanding is that if card is compromised (as opposed to being lost) then banks should not provide the new details. There isn't really much _additional_ privacy or security risk here beyond those posed by merchants/acquirers holding onto card details already – provided banks do it right.

Though zooming out a little, long-lived payment tokens shared among every merchant a user shops with being the way things are still done is crazy. How long it has took to roll out EMV (chip cards), especially in the US, shows how hard it is to effect change in vast, three+ sided marketplaces like card networks.

[1] [https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/vau](https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/vau)

[2] [https://developer.mastercard.com/product/automatic- billing-u...](https://developer.mastercard.com/product/automatic-billing- updater)

Disclosure: I work for a bank.

<comment><USER13> I prefer to be able to choose whether my card details are updated. By default I do not want updates. I will definitely give Uber my new card, but I like how card expiration kills subscriptions I don't care about without me having to do anything.

<comment><USER14> That's just like people who are going to be "smart" and use a card with a low credit limit to attach to their hobby AWS accounts.

Just because the charge was declined when you were billed doesn't mean you don't owe the money.

<comment><USER15> A subscription is a bit different as you pay in advance. If the charge fails, you generally lose access to the subscribed service. That's not the same as using an AWS resource, being invoiced for that use, then not paying it.

<comment><USER14> That's fair and in most cases, you can just update your card information and nothing is lost. But what if it is for a renewal of something like a domain name or backup service where you would lose data if you don't renew?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm personally on the side of opt-in/choice, maybe due to the traditional nature of controlling your credit card.

Although, I'd love to see a show of hands from anyone IT related that hasn't witnessed an outage caused by an expired card/billing account issue. Oh the SSL certs, exchange servers, SaaS apps, domains, etc I've seen go up in flames temporarily because of billing issues over the years.

</comment><comment><USER17> This has been happening in the US for a long while. Several years ago I had significant trouble terminating an Xbox Live Gold account. Exasperated, I canceled my card and got a new one. The next two months the charge was still on my bill. I eventually discovered the problem related to two separate accounts linked to my email address with and without a period in it, with Google considering the addresses identical and Microsoft considering them different.

<comment><USER18> In the United States, you can also work directly with your credit card company (or bank, in the case of a debit card) to stop a recurring charge. This is possible due to the Fair Credit Billing Act [1]. You might also be refunded for recent charges, if you have evidence that you contacted the vendor and attempted to terminate the service and were billed anyway.

1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Credit_Billing_Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Credit_Billing_Act)

<comment><USER7> so I have to record my phone conversation with the vendor I want to cancel just Incase I need to go to my bank and have them terminate? This is ridiculous and why consumer protection laws should be a thing.

<comment><USER19> Right!

You are the bank's customer. They don't need to protect the ability of vendors to bill you. I've had this argument before. "If canceling this subscription/ability to bill causes a dispute or debt or contract issue with the vendor, that's on me. I don't need you being 'helpful', or worse, _refusing_ to remove unauthorized transactions."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> purple-again This is clearly a valuable service that just makes sense. To me the only viable argument here is the age old Opt In versus Opt Out argument that the United States and Europe can never agree on.

To me this makes perfect sense to be Opt Out. I would hazard a guess that 90% or more of consumers absolutely want their merchants to all keep going as expected when they for example lose their credit card on a trip and call to get a new one sent to them.

Keep in mind that the average consumer (at least in my observation) saves ALL of their credit card information for easier purchases in the future, a practice that probably has a much smaller overlap with the traditional HN crowd.

</comment><comment><USER20> Read the article, the credit card company didn't provide PayPal the info. As the story unfolded, we find out that the update was done through PayPal shenanigans that they refuse to explain:

"After initially telling Go Public it got Acuña's information from the "account update services," PayPal backtracked a few days later, saying the account updater service "doesn't apply" in Acuña's case.

So, how did PayPal get her new expiry date? It won't say, citing customer confidentiality — even though Acuña agreed to waive confidentiality to allow the company to answer Go Public's questions."

</comment><comment><USER21> As other comments have pointed out - the facility to update the details of an expired or cancelled card has been available to merchants / payment providers for years if not decades. I do recall that the type of transactions had to be specifically marked as so at the initial authorisation stage ("Continuous Authority" IIRC) and that would allow the initial auth code to effectively be reused. Visa and Mastercard would then provide a service that allowed you to update card details for those that required it (I can't remember if it was push or pull though).

I do also recall there was a problem when 3D Secure / Verified by Visa was involved - IIRC while the Continuous Authority transaction type allowed an indefinite length of reuse, 3D Secure / VByV only allowed up to 90 days (may have changed or may be a detail of the spec I'm forgetting).

The point is, don't assume cancelling your card will result in cancelling of any recurring debits or allow you to get out of a contract. You have to cancel them with the merchant to make sure they don't continue to charge your new card.

</comment><comment><USER22> Even without an updater service, obtaining the new expiry date isn't too difficult, as alluded by this HN comment from 2011: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2502530](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2502530)

<comment><USER23> I renewed two credit cards recently, and both included a new CVC number in addition to the expiry date.

<comment><USER12> CVCs cannot be used for recurring payments (beyond setting the subscription up) and merchants/acquirers are forbidden from storing them at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It's been around for a few years [https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/vau](https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/vau)

</comment><comment><USER25> I wish I had this with my web clients in past, I had to recover their micro sites many times because they had forgotten providing new payment information to the provider.

</comment><comment><USER26> This is a well known feature in the SaaS billing world - most large gateways and billing systems (think Stripe, Recurly, Zorua, etc...) have supported this for years. In a recurring revenue model MOST clients are paying via credit card and even when you are a small company, credit cards expiring creates a significant challenge. The auto updating of cards at the gateway / payment processor level help mitigate the impact.

</comment><comment><USER27> Do we still need the credit card schemes for payments? Could move to a world of bank account to bank account payments, stripping out the payment layers?

<comment><USER28> We certainly COULD but I wouldn't.

By having Amex between me and a whole host of recurring-billing vendors, I have a kind of firewall. Amex is on my side reflexively if there's some kind of disagreement or dispute, and will reverse the charge.

If it were my debit card in play, or bank-to-bank transfer, the money would actually be GONE until I was able to convince the merchant, or the merchant's bank, to give it back.

<comment><USER29> _By having Amex between me and a whole host of recurring-billing vendors, I have a kind of firewall. Amex is on my side reflexively if there 's some kind of disagreement or dispute, and will reverse the charge._

But this is a double-edged sword. There is always a cost to this kind of scheme, and one way or another it is always going to be passed on to the customer. There is also an inherent risk in this kind of scheme, in that some quasi-judicial process is making decisions about who gets to keep the money in the event of a dispute, and if it goes the wrong way in one party's view then the result is either losing out on money they think belongs to them or taking more expensive action to recover it, possibly via the courts.

Ultimately I think everyone has to learn to be more responsible about these transactions. Of course it shouldn't be possible for a merchant to take money from a customer without authorisation, but equally it shouldn't be possible for a customer to arbitrarily reverse a payment several months later even if the merchant has done nothing wrong, or to cancel the payment authorisation as some sort of informal proxy for cancelling a legal contract with a merchant.

Aside from the excessive time periods for challenging payments retrospectively, I think the direct debit schemes tend to be better at this sort of thing than the card schemes. Typically, you have a specific payment authorisation (which can be cancelled from the customer's side) and you also have a requirement to give advance notice of recurring payments so there is time for the customer to act if they don't agree with them for any reason.

<comment><USER28> I'm really not sure what you're saying here, which is surprising because you said so much of it.

>But this is a double-edged sword.

No, it's really not.

Yes, I pay Amex an annual fee for the level of card I carry. I've done the math, and I get a good value back for this fee -- especially given the level of customer service AX provides. Paying for a service does not make this a double-edged sword; there's no downside for me here.

>There is also an inherent risk in this kind of scheme, in that some quasi- judicial process is making decisions about who gets to keep the money in the event of a dispute, and if it goes the wrong way in one party's view then the result is either losing out on money they think belongs to them or taking more expensive action to recover it, possibly via the courts.

This is true in literally any transaction, at some level. I mean, even in a cash-on-the-barrelhead scenario there's the possibility of bad faith or swindles, so I have no idea what your point is.

>Ultimately I think everyone has to learn to be more responsible about these transactions.

This is one of those things that sounds true and wise, but is actually just noise.

>Of course it shouldn't be possible for a merchant to take money from a customer without authorisation,

It will perhaps surprise you that it ISN'T, and that the disputes in discussion are generally over overbilling or billing after permission has been revoked.

>but equally it shouldn't be possible for a customer to arbitrarily reverse a payment several months later even if the merchant has done nothing wrong, or to cancel the payment authorisation as some sort of informal proxy for cancelling a legal contract with a merchant.

Truly, the merchants are fortunate to have such a wise defender in Silhouette!

>I think the direct debit schemes tend to be better at this sort of thing than the card schemes.

You have not even APPROACHED explaining why you think this, or why anyone should agree with you.

As long as there are automated billing systems, there will be errors.

In the scenario I outline, Amex functions as an intermediary, so a screwup doesn't literally take money from my account. This is objectively preferable to your scenario, where that's precisely what would happen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I had a similar problem with a website that sells t-shirts. I signed up for a particular t-shirt campaign, providing my credit card number. The campaign didn't get enough joiners, so was cancelled. A few months later, I have to get a new number because of fraud elsewhere.

Fast-forward a year after that t-shirt campaign and now I'm seeing a charge for the shirt. Um ... no? I call the bank and they immediately reverse the charge. But oddly (I thought at the moment) the agent on the phone mentions how they'll let previously used merchants continue to charge on the old number.

I contacted support for the t-shirt folks, and they acknowledged that they'd re-initiated the campaign, found they had enough takers, charged folks, printed shirts and were sending them out. I asked about email notification. Oh, yes, of _course_ they sent email notifications. The date on the email I finally received (four days later) was dated two days after the charge appeared.

I still received a t-shirt and the charge didn't reappear.

</comment><comment><USER31> This happened to me with an oil company. The refilled my tank when it was 3/4 full and charged me a couple hundred for the privilege and acted like they were doing me a favor. I had just gotten a new card and they complained that they weren't able to charge me. Two weeks later they charged me anyways.

</comment><comment><USER32> I highly recommend virtual card numbers through capital one's chrome extension called Eno: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/eno®-from- capital-...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/eno®-from-capital- one®/clmkdohmabikagpnhjmgacbclihgmdje)

They really nailed the UX of generating and managing virtual CC numbers per use case.

</comment><comment><USER33> For years AmEx has allowed recurring charges to continue after a number or expiration date change. But I'm pretty sure they don't share new information with the merchant as part of that.

It's nice after a stolen card number to know recurring charges will continue automatically.

</comment><comment><USER34> I believe Monzo (Fintech bank) are starting to implement this. Sounds useful really.

[https://community.monzo.com/t/monzo-labs-share-card- replacem...](https://community.monzo.com/t/monzo-labs-share-card- replacements/55935)

</comment><comment><USER35> Not masked cards: [https://dnt.abine.com/#premiumreg/](https://dnt.abine.com/#premiumreg/)?

</comment><comment><USER36> I reported a card lost and got a new number to avoid SiriusXM. They're still billing!

There should be a way to lock a card completely, in a way that prevents ongoing charges.

</comment><comment><USER37> This has happened to me for many online purchases: Steam games, Amazon, GOG, etc. kind of useful, but also little confusing and a sketchy.

</comment><comment><USER38> it's so annoying. Is there any card which can give me something like notification on the mobile app before subscription will occur? Maybe like ones per day with all tx will go to happen and I manually can cancel undesirable part of them. Sort of 2FA for all transaction, where the second authenticator is the mobile app. that's would be ideal for me.

</comment><comment><USER39> Why do credit cards have expiration dates?

<comment><USER40> I'm assuming for the same reason passwords have an expiration.

Bad security theater and lack of understanding of computer security. I'm sure there's a PCI reason in there as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I kind of like that when my card dies, in theory, so do any charges / card data that someone might have ...

</comment><comment><USER42> This happened to me as well, just a month ago. Also a Visa Debit user; I'm based in Europe however.

</comment><comment><USER43> Related question - Are there any services offering virtual credit cards in Australia presently?

</comment><comment><USER44> In their FAQs: "Visa and Mastercard expiry dates will automatically update in your PayPal account using the Visa and Mastercard update feature offered to all card holders."

[https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/article/how-do-i- change-...](https://www.paypal.com/uk/smarthelp/article/how-do-i-change-the- expiry-date-of-my-debit-or-credit-card-faq408)

and their T&c's say: "3.1 Linking your Funding Source. You can link or unlink a debit card, a credit card, a pre-paid card (in certain cases), a bank account and/or PayPal Credit as a Funding Source for your Account. Please keep your Funding Source information current (i.e. credit card number and expiration date). If this information changes, we may update it at our sole discretion without any action on your part, according to information provided by your bank or card issuer and third parties (including but not limited to our financial services partners and the card networks). If you do not want us to update your Funding Source information, you may contact your bank or card issuer to request this or remove the Funding Source in your Account Profile. If we update your Funding Source information, we may retain any preference setting attached to it.

You may choose to confirm your card or bank account, so that we can verify that the card or bank account is valid and that you are its owner. We may allow you to do this by following the Link and Confirm Card process (for cards) or the Bank Confirmation process (for bank accounts) or other processes which we may notify to you or which we may publish from time to time."

[https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement- full](https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full)

Intersetingly, it says "If you do not want us to update your Funding Source information, you may contact your bank or card issuer to request this" so I assume you can ask the bank to not share updated details with anyone.

Seems there is also an API that banks could use to let customers know which retailers received the updated details - that would be nice, would also help to see wwhat services that are no longer used still have card details on file.

[https://developer.visa.com/use-cases/identify-merchants- rece...](https://developer.visa.com/use-cases/identify-merchants-receiving- automatic-card-updates)

I wonder if this is something that Stripe et all would ever implement on their side, so that it could be an opt-out per service - ie they just ignore the update for a particular card and service implementation?

</comment><comment><USER45> Has anyone considered that your information is uniquely yours and it has value so unless you have given permission for it to be used the people paying for it and/or selling it owe you a royalty ?

<comment><USER46> Hacker News has a disproportionate number of those people. Many other people have never considered it. Many other people have considered it and chosen convenience over consent.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What is the tech behind MailChimp/Sendgrid etc.? - <AUTHOR> What is the tech behind Mailchimp? What does it take to create a Mailchimp like email service? Can I just build it on Amazon SES <comment><USER2> There are many parts, you have the actual application where users can create newsletter campaigns, create lists with recipients and stuff like that. Basically a simple web app. The hard part about those tools is the sending part. The goal is to directly reach the recipients inbox without getting blocked or mails being routed directly to the spam folder.

What that means is that you want full control over the actual mail servers to have influence and can adjust things. The easy route wouuld be SES, it would work but you basically have no control over anything.

When running your own mail servers things like IP repuation becomes important. You probably want multiple different IP subnets, so that if one or more IPs are getting blacklisted temporary you can use other IPs or subnets. This way you could also rotate through those IPs. Use the good IPs for good customers, IPs that got blacklisted in the past could be used for new users that are higher risk. Handling all those things is a constant hassle.</comment>


Apollo program source code - <AUTHOR> http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/links.html <comment><USER3> Fun fact: the actual programs in the spacecraft were stored in core rope memory, an ancient memory technology made by (literally) weaving a fabric/rope, where the bits were physical rings of ferrite material.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory>

<comment><USER4> "Core" memory is resistant to cosmic rays. The state of a core bit will not change when bombarded by radiation in Outer Space. Can't say the same of solid state memory.

I worked on core memory computers in the 60's. You had 16K, tape drives (no disks) and FORTRAN. What a gas!

<comment><USER5> Just curious how they knew this given how young the computing industry was at the time that this was used.

Were there some "Well, that's interesting..." moments where we launched something and realized it was affected by cosmic rays?

<comment><USER6> I think it's just an understanding of how the underlying physics work. Alpha and beta radiation will cause bits to flip in solid-state devices, because the state is held with electrons. Whereas core rope memory stores that state as magnetic fields in ferrite cylinders. So radiation will basically just bounce right off the giant ferrite cores (giant relative to solid-state semiconductors, that is).

*I am not a physicist, someone correct me if I'm grossly wrong.

<comment><USER7> Hmm, it's more like any ionizing particle (charged) creates pairs electron/hole, many of them, so that the charge distribution in the pn junctions are altered. Sometimes gamma photons generate Compton electrons in the material that act as delta rays, to the same effect. Heavy particles can alter the crystal structure, inducing defects that may change its properties. Magnetic storage devices don't have polarised junctions and could withstand all this if they didn't include solid state electronics. Radiation hardening techniques and shielding can help a lot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> C'mon, Notch, even Apollo supported interrupts:

<http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/hrst/archive/1678.pdf>

 _"It is first appropriate to briefly describe the Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC). This processor is a general purpose, sequential, digital machine. Its word length is 16 bits including parity. The random access memory consists of 2048 words of destructive, read-write memory, called erasable, and 36,864 words of non- destructive read-only memory called fixed memory. The memor'y cycle time (MCT) is slightly less than 12 microseconds, with two MCI's required to execute an add and four MCTs to execute a multiply. As is typical of real-time control computers, this machine has a set of special input-output channels with which it controls the spacecraft and observes the state of its environment. The interrupt structure consists of ten program interrupts with associated priorities, which are used for program control transfers. In addition, twenty-six counter interrupts with associated priorities allow for input-output servicing. The instruction set consists of forty-two regular instructions and nine involuntary instructions. Figure 1 indicates the number and diversity of systems with which the AGC interacts"_

EDIT: Apparently, as of six or so hours ago, Notch has implemented cutting- edge 1970s technology ( <http://dcpu.com/highnerd/dcpu16_1_3.txt> ). :)

<comment><USER9> Well, the DCPU-16 does too: [http://www.reddit.com/r/dcpu16/comments/sripk/rfe_dcpu16_v13...](http://www.reddit.com/r/dcpu16/comments/sripk/rfe_dcpu16_v13/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> hmmm. so the "bugger words" at the end of, for example, [http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/listings/Colossus249/MAIN.agc....](http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/listings/Colossus249/MAIN.agc.html) are checksums - <USER2> [http://books.google.cl/books?id=3fKzL0HfJp4C&pg=PA232...](http://books.google.cl/books?id=3fKzL0HfJp4C&pg=PA232&lpg=PA232&dq=apollo+bugger+words&source=bl&ots=cF3S6mxXfE&sig=6LhH9dhU3xpavWEc9UlxwqUHFI8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=afGXT4_NF8avgwez48jQBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)

anyone know the etymology? is it just a shortened form of "debugger"? is "bugger" not common slang in _american_ english? or is this a joke?

<comment><USER11> Bugger is not common slang in American English. You can find people who will argue about that, but they don't get out much.

<comment><USER12> I've used bugger since the first of the Austin Powers movies. My friends and I used it until one of them married a South African girl and she made us stop being as it was incredibly impolite and rude apparently. I started again last year after watching Top Gear and then recently got yelled at by a new accounting manager who moved into the office across from my cubicle. Once again, I was being crude but in all honesty, for me, the word is no different than saying frag, frell, crude bunnies, etc.

<comment><USER13> Very commonly used in New Zealand, its used on TV with no problems, heres the iconic Toyota ad using the word bugger to good effect: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKY_OysWu3k>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Most of this is code is available in machine-readable form in the VirtualAGC Google Code repository:

[http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/#svn%2Ftru...](http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/#svn%2Ftrunk)

</comment><comment><USER15> Now that the shuttle program has ended, it would be nice to get the supposedly perfect code produced by the On-board Shuttle Group as well. I wonder if a FOIA request has been made.

</comment><comment><USER16> Anyone have an idea why there's sourcecode for (apparently) a pinball machine in there?

[http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/listings/Luminary099/PINBALL_G...](http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/listings/Luminary099/PINBALL_GAME_BUTTONS_AND_LIGHTS.agc.html)

It's in the code repository for multiple Apollo's

<comment><USER17> If you read the code, it seems to suggest this is just the (fun) name of the lit display driving code.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Just in time for being ported to DCPU-16.

<comment><USER19> I lolled.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> A very interesting book, written by Frank O'Brien and published by Springer, The Apollo Guidance Computer: Architecture and Operation, is definitely worth the read. Fun fact: The unit weighed 70lbs (32kg).

The AGC has spawned a pretty active cult of hardware hackers that have built the AGC from scratch - including the core memory.

</comment><comment><USER21> looking through some of those documents a couple things stand out to me: 1) learn your maths people if you want to do rocket science stuff 2) the amount and detail of the documentation they wrote back then is unreal 3) the simple webapps I write for big bucks at local megacorp pale in comparison to those programs that frickin landed people on the moon!

</comment><comment><USER22> My favorite is the DSKY emulator: <http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/yaDSKY.html> I used to use it as my desktop clock for a while.

</comment><comment><USER4> With the power of open source, "many eyes make all bugs shallow".

Wouldn't be a hoot if someone ran this through a simulator, and discovered a bug that had eluded NASA?

<comment><USER23> I'd need a lot of convincing it wasn't rather a bug in the simulator. An attainable amount of convincing, but it would be my first thought.

<comment><USER24> Why?

Bugs in code made it into space. These are documented.

<comment><USER23> Because the odds are that the simulator with which someone will run around yelling about the bug they found (which will get them links on HN and other fun perks) will have had less than 1% of the time spent on creating it than the code that was actually sent into space, and on the balance, given the observation of a defect in the combined simulator+Apollo code the highest probability locus is the new, untested code that was probably rushed out for publicity's sake and had no lives ever depend on it.

You seem to have misinterpreted my post as me saying I would _never_ believe it was a bug in the Apollo code, despite me making very sure to explicitly disclaim that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> .. what about voyager program? you could then actually test the live system )

</comment><comment><USER26> Who's going to implement this in-browser in javascript?

</comment><comment><USER27> I bet a lot of folks under the Iron Curtain would have loved to have had access to these documents back in the day.

<comment><USER28> Maybe they had... or maybe the NASA/MIT code is based on code originally obtained from behind the iron curtain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> If this stuff interests you, I highly recommend David Mindell's Digital Apollo.

</comment><comment><USER30> so who is going to be the first to convert this all to DCPU?</comment>


Thanks Microsoft for the great WP7 Marketplace - <AUTHOR> http://rabah.posterous.com/thanks-microsoft-for-the-great-wp7-marketplac

<comment><AUTHOR> Anyone with different experience with WP7? Something has to be wrong.

<comment><USER2> Hi! I played this game on my iPod touch when it first launched. I got my WP7 last month and I search for good games to try out very frequently. And I've never come across this game while casually browsing the marketplace. Maybe this is a problem of discoverablity?

Is it possible for you to allocate time to market it better? Sad to see a well made game getting lost in the marketplace.</comment></comment>


Sketch in 3D With Animating Lines on HTML5 canvas - <AUTHOR> http://hakim.se/experiments/html5/sketch/ <comment><USER2> Nice work! I was thinking on implementing some cool features on a drawing site I created. I tried to avoid HTML5 canvas to keep compatibility with older browsers (solved with some javascript + image creation workaround). But when I see this kind of apps like yours, makes me wonder if I should forget about compatibility and provide users with better features.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there a way to express the depth of the cursor in the drawing? If I draw a circle on the left side of the canvas, I cant figure out how to draw a line through its center.

</comment><comment><USER4> Cool app, but how exactly is it 3D?

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually I can't figure that out either, but my PC seems to be too slow to use this app in a normal way. Gonna try tomorrow at work...

<comment><USER5> "To rotate the canvas in 3D, you need to hold down SPACE and then DRAG horizontally with your cursor."

Move your cursor over the heading so you get a little help (not really intuitive, but I liked it once I found it)

<comment><USER4> Oh, very cool. This just got a bunch more fun.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Discworld Reading Order Guides - <AUTHOR> http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/ <comment><AUTHOR> In [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6965433](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6965433) it was proposed that Emacs users, _true_ Emacs users, are like the Igors from Pratchett's Discworld novels. Someone clearly didn't understand the reference, and a little was explained.

This site provides charts to help see the structure of the novels, and decide on entry points into the canon. The actual chart is here:

[http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the- discwor...](http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld- reading-order-guide-20.jpg)

Enjoy!

 _Added in edit: It should be noted that there are geeks and hackers who don 't like Pratchett, just as there are geeks and hackers who don't like The Princess Bride. Not sure what to say to them._

<comment><USER2> > just as there are geeks and hackers who don't like The Princess Bride

Inconceivable!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'd recommend you just read them in chronological order. The universe evolves over time and there are many surprise appearances by a lot of characters -- notably Death -- in many of them.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not convinced. I've gone back and re-read "The Colour of Magic" and found it to be significantly less entertaining than "Guards! Guards!" In fact, I found "The Colour of Magic" much better after having read the other stories.

A colleague of mine agrees with you, saying that TCoM was published on its own merit - others may have ridden the wave of success, but I say that the canon of work is there, why not pick a good place to start?

As a metaphor, you don't insist everyone learn ForTran, then BASIC, then Pascal, _etc.,_ before learning a modern language. You choose where to start.

<fx: shrug />

Start somewhere.

<comment><USER3> The first two are standalone, yes. They're also different in style to the rest as Pratchett had yet to find his voice for the series.

However, they do introduce two very important characters that remain some of the most popular in the series.

I would call that a false dichotomy, Colin. Most of the books are standalone, technically, yes; but consider this: most people who look at the reading order wouldn't know why they should read the witches novels nor the watch novels - so why not just start at the beginning and let it unfold as the author wrote them?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I love S.F (especially classic hard S.F fiction era, but also later stuff), and I like stuff like Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Neil Gaiman, and the like.

Never could like Discworld. The jokes are few and far between, and the insights are only insights if you are a fifteen year old. As for the story, it's mostly a lame subtext for the non-jokes.

<comment><AUTHOR> I wonder if you don't get all the cross-references and cultural comments. When I spoke with another programmer who preferred HHGttG over Pratchett it rapidly became clear that he was looking for jokes, not realising that the vast majority of the humour is not in the jokes, but in the structure, language, ping-backs, and other re-interpretations of external material.

So, in short, maybe you just don't it. That's fair enough. Not everyone has the context in which to insert it.

 _My wife has just asked if you 're reading Craig Shaw Gardner, whose covers are also done by Josh Kirby._

PS: I wish people wouldn't downvote just because someone has a different opinion, especially when it's just a personal preference.

<comment><USER4> > _I wonder if you don 't get all the cross-references and cultural comments. > When I spoke with another programmer who preferred HHGttG over Pratchett it > rapidly became clear that he was looking for jokes, not realising that the > vast majority of the humour is not in the jokes, but in the structure, > language, ping-backs, and other re-interpretations of external material._

I doubt that's it. I'm a book freak and I've also consumed tons of music/TV/net, so I can get the cultural/cross references to external material in stuff ranging from Derrida to Woody Allen and the Family Guy.

I've actually had this contest with a friend who insisted on Pratchett: we'd read together a tome until we found a good joke. I gave up after 50 or 60 pages, and he too was buffled that nothing seemed as good as he remembered it so as to justify it.

> _My wife has just asked if you 're reading Craig Shaw Gardner, whose covers > are also done by Josh Kirby._

No, not really.

<comment><AUTHOR>
        >> My wife has just asked if you're reading
        >> Craig Shaw Gardner, whose covers are also
        >> done by Josh Kirby.

        > No, not really.

Worth checking - it's a mistake one of our friends made.

Anyway ...

      > ... we'd read together a tome until we found
      > a good joke.

I wonder if this is the mis-match in your expectations. Yes, there are jokes in Pratchett, but that's not where the majority of the humour lies. It's more about word-play and visual imagery.

It's not to everyone's taste, and I'm not trying to convert you, but given enough time it would be interesting to find where the difference is between us that makes me really, _really_ enjoy most Pratchett (although not all), and for you, not.

But there is no time, so it will remain a mystery.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> this is a majot fail

how to start reading a book series promisse that delivers a jpeg with a graph with some 10 entry points.

title might have been "reduce your doubts from 30 to 10 on where to start reading"

...its probably an inside joke for people that already read the books

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't understand your disappointment. It's a reading guide, it's a description of the connections between the books - the story arcs and dependencies. It's clear that there are dependencies between the books, and lets you know where you can choose to start, and where is best avoided because of the dependencies.

Perhaps you could be a little more explicit about what you were expecting, and why this doesn't help.

And if you really want more explicit advice, if you really don't want to understand the story arcs, and just want to be told what to do, read them in order of publication.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> What is "Bulgarian"?

<comment><AUTHOR> Are you serious?

Bulgarian[0] is the official language of the country, Bulgaria[1][2].

[0] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language)

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria)

[2] [https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bulgaria+map](https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=bulgaria+map)</comment></comment>


Facebook & Identity: The Continued Push Toward Becoming Your One True Login - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/facebook_identity_the_continued_push_toward_becomi.php?sms_ss=hackernews&at_xt=4d352e7014a2fce5%2C0 <comment><USER2> We should really worry about Facebook entering the retail market, taking from Amazon a considerable number of consumers. I fear that one day, Facebook will have its own version of Amazon, where products are suggested based on the buying habits of the people you know.

"Hey X, did you know that Y's birthday is in three days? You should consider buying Product A for her! Buy it now and we'll take off 20% AND throw in free shipping!!!"

It's coming.

</comment><comment><USER3> Would this matter that much if a person didn't share much on Facebook? After all, Facebook does not force anyone to share intimate details of one's life. On the other hand, constantly updating or changing the privacy controls and policy ensures that the majority of people don't keep up with it. No one likes to read the terms and conditions of any site.

<comment><AUTHOR> Part of what Facebook has done has continually push what we're willing to share online, I think. And really, the entire Internet has changed what we're willing to share online, not just Facebook. As we're able to do more and more online, we need to provide more and more information online. It's just whether or not that information remains under our control that's really the big question, I think.</comment></comment>