Ask HN: Agriculture startups doing interesting work? - <AUTHOR> Maybe I'm out of the loop, but agriculture seems to be an overlooked industry in the startup world, even though there is a ton of opportunity there.
What are some startups who are solving tough agricultural problems? Who are some more established players?
I'm curious about any ag startups, especially those attempting to curb climate change through agriculture. For instance, new takes on outdoor farming techniques (like Indigo), indoor farming startups, folks working on agricultural hardware, machine learning, organic farming, folks developing apps to help farmers, distribution/sales/marketing, etc. <comment><USER4> I am the founder of Optimal: [http://optimal.ag](http://optimal.ag).

We are a team of engineers and scientists from DeepMind, Palantir, Oxford and MIT. Our mission is to grow safer, healthier food by deploying fully autonomous greenhouses outside every city on earth. We are backed by leading deep technology funds, including Founders Fund.

We believe that high-tech greenhouses will be an important part of our agricultural future, for improved human nutrition and as a hedge to climate change, and we are doing everything we can to accelerate the deployment of new farms around the world.

We are in stealth mode right now so there's not a huge amount about us online but we've made strong progress with the core technology and I would be happy to speak more about our work privately.

<comment><USER5> I spent a bunch of time modelling out the unit economics for autonomous greenhouses and struggled to find any combination of technologies that could even come close to competing with the current costs of field agriculture, including labor. Do you folks need something key to change in the competitive landscape (like climate change or very different immigration laws in the US) to become profitable?

See [https://www.eater.com/2018/7/3/17531192/vertical-farming- agr...](https://www.eater.com/2018/7/3/17531192/vertical-farming-agriculture- hydroponic-greens) for an example of the costs for the case of indoor vertical farms.

<comment><USER4> There's a significant efficiency difference between high-tech greenhouses (glasshouses) and warehouse (aka vertical) farms. High-tech greenhouses will not compete with field farms for staple crops, but they are already profitably supplying fresh produce in many countries.

<comment><USER5> Oh of course, and to be quite honest, I really hope you folks can succeed in your mission. But, I still found that at least locally (in southern Ontario), the unit costs of importing from California still make sense compared to growing locally because of the cost of artificial lighting and the difficulties growing year round. The big greenhouse operations locally grow a premium product that can command a much higher price in order to justify the capex compared to field agriculture or just importing. I assume that premium price would have to go up even more to justify a big investment in automation, right? That's why I was asking if expensive robotics are viable now vs reliant on some change in the market dynamics.

<comment><USER6> California's lettuce production alone is a 3 billion dollar industry.

Entire Ag income in Netherlands is around 3 billion dollars. __

California lettuce farms have a year round growing season and we move from Salinas to Yuma in winter. We grow organic lettuce with cover cropping and crop rotation.

Glass houses are NOT more efficient than how we grow in CA. We have water shortage and a labour problem. The main problem is labour.

We need robotics to solve our problem. Not data oriented Agtech. Most of the Agtech startups are creating a new sector that didn't exist before. They are not addressing our throbbing pain point.

Labour. Labour. Labour.

Even automation solutions needs engineers who need to draw 6 figures to work and live in the Bay Area. It's still cheaper to hire minimum wage labour and make human beings do repetitive manual labour.

There is nothing cheaper than FREE. Sunlight is free. We don't need energy hungry indoor automation in CA. In east coast maybe..in the frozen northlands of Canada maybe..but CA is an Ag state. We do upwards of 45 billion in Ag income every year. We need _real_ solutions. Every Agtech company wants a piece of the 45 billion dollar pie. They are not working to make it bigger. CA farms are consumers of new tech. Without ROI.

Agtech startups need to Keep It Simple.

Ping me if anyone wants to discuss this further.

 __[..] GDP From Agriculture in Netherlands decreased to 2544 EUR Million in the second quarter of 2019 from 3071 EUR Million in the first quarter of 2019. GDP From Agriculture in Netherlands averaged 2641.87 EUR Million from 1995 until 2019, reaching an all time high of 3343 EUR Million in the third quarter of 2016 and a record low of 1860 EUR Million in the fourth quarter of 1996.[..]

<comment><USER7> I'm not in ag but anybody working on a modular elevated track system? Let the sun shine right thru. Automate a ton of physical tasks, like that one gardening startup (forgot name). Some central unit coordinates it all and offers an api, that way third-parties can program specific bots for specific tasks and its all orchestrated without collisions. Allow a whole industry of startups to build on such physical 'Operating Systems'. Seems so obvious I must have seen it in a sci-fi movie or something and I forgot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've been working on a hardware data logger device and web software platform that monitors soil moisture and other environmental metrics that produce- growers care about – soil temperature and conductivity (which indicates salinity or fertiliser penetration), air/canopy temperature, rainfall, irrigation, humidity, solar radiation, etc.

We've been working on the product for about 4-5 years (as a side project while working on other things to pay the bills). Initially it was a smartphone- connected device using Bluetooth and manual data retrieval, but we've just reached production-ready stage of a newer version that uses the new LTE Cat-M1 cellular data protocol (which uses existing 4G cellular infrastructure but is optimised for lower power and longer range).

So we now have a whole lot of these devices sitting in crops (E.g., grapevines, wheat, fruit/vegetables, nuts, sugar cane), some of them over 20km from their nearest cell tower (you can extend the range further with high-gain antennas but we haven't had to do that yet), automatically uploading all this data and generating various data views (time series graphs and dashboards) to help growers make decisions about when/how much to irrigate etc.

It can also do reactive/proactive stuff like detect when temperature close to the surface drops to near 2°C overnight and send out frost warning alerts, and over time we intend to make the data platform powerful enough that it can do things like automate the switching on/off of irrigation pumps in response to soil moisture level trends.

I don't have a website to point to yet. I'm working on a demo site now.

But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is working on tech like this or is interested to work on it or partner in some way (email address is in my profile).

Despite having worked in the space for nearly 5 years, I'm still not sure why this tech isn't more commonplace – i.e., why every professional grower isn't already using something like this. This kind of tech has been around for a long time, so we're not doing anything completely new, just doing it more affordably and hopefully making better use of modern tech.

From what I've been able to learn about the market, it seems that the big industrial-scale producers use this type of tech, though what they use is costly and sophisticated to install/maintain. But for many smaller growers, it's considered not important enough to make the investment, and they're happy doing things the way they and the previous generations have always done it.

But with water scarcity becoming an issue in many parts of the world it will become increasingly important for growers of all scales to use this kind of tech to avoid water wastage.

We've also had the opportunity to trial the equipment with growers in Far- North Queensland, inland from the Great Barrier Reef. The government and industry bodies in that region are interested to see how this kind of tech could be used to minimise over-watering leading to fertiliser run-off into the sea, which is a contributor to coral bleaching.

So, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Happy to hear from anyone interested to know more or work together.

<comment><USER9> this is really cool. i'm currently in Melbourne (but from the USA) -- [http://bit.ly/elasticventures-growpotbot](http://bit.ly/elasticventures- growpotbot)

I posted on another thread -- but basically the innovation in this area was stifled by lack of military applications in the USA and farmers "not being real good at technology" and good ole' fashioned corruption in the academic institutions.

If you'd like this to be full time - I know a guy that manages a tycoon fortune and he might like to help you. hmu - [http://elastic.ventures](http://elastic.ventures)

<comment><USER8> Strangely enough I'm in LA right now. In the U.S. for another 2.5 weeks. Will ping you. Thanks for the comment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is exactly what I am working on. Using climate data for more efficient farming, in a nutshell.

Established players are like sledge hammers. They are successful if they are hard working and have some competitive edge (could be labour cost, could be local knowledge, could be profit reinvestment, could be rights to varieties).

Farmers are the most efficient managers you'll ever find. They don't need management, so IMHO any startup that tries a "smart farm" is underestimating the intelligence of the farm managers.

The sweet spot is immediate deliverables in terms of cost saving or other forms of optimisation. In the time of my grandfather, the profit margin was 50% and a flip of the coin whether you'll actually get anything to the market. Today it is <10% and you better know what you are doing.

The retailers are the real money spinners; if you want to make your money at the primary level you better like the social aspect of farming as well.

Don't misunderstand, there is plenty tech, but it is probably more important whether you are willing to work on a Sunday. Take from it what you will; my opinions tend to somewhat unique (in this regard). For example, don't waste your time with "organic farming". It's a marketing term and actually not very descriptive (vs. "organic chemistry"). Sure, you could make money, but in marketing.

The toughest problems are pretty damn interesting though and are basically going to cross polinate with the most cutting edge climate change research.

<comment><USER11> Chicken coops that are picked up at night by 6 heavy duty drones and flown to a new part of the field —- sign me up

<comment><USER10> Is this then called 3D free range chicken?

<comment><USER11> free++, since their 'range' of freedom is constantly being changed to a new location in the field, plus before, they still had 3 dimensions of range, hopping up into coop at night (+z) and hopping down during day (-z). I'm talking about organic farm chickens here, not factory farm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'd recommend following AgFunder News: [https://agfundernews.com](https://agfundernews.com) (RSS, Twitter, whatever you like). I find that they cover the industry fairly well (or at least link to enough interesting things to get you a foothold). You're totally right that this is an overlooked industry, though make no mistake, many of the big players (your John Deeres and such) have very sophisticated R&D and engineering initiatives pursuing market opportunities in a variety of ag tech realms.

<comment><USER13> > though make no mistake, many of the big players (your John Deeres and such) > have very sophisticated R&D and engineering initiatives pursuing market > opportunities in a variety of ag tech realms

Seconding this. It's easy to think that because SV engineers aren't aware of or don't work on an industry that not much happens in it, but there's a lot of technology in agriculture already. For example, modern tractors can drive themselves, and plant seeds and apply fertilizer exactly where needed using GPS localization. This isn't even that new either. And that's just one highly visible example. There's tons of other R&D in seed companies and other parts of agriculture.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Indigo Agriculture (indigoag.com) - Boston/Memphis/Remote

Shameless plug for Indigo Agriculture (indigoag.com). We're expanding on a number of different fronts with the central goal of increasing farmer profitability while reducing the environmental impact of production. Here are some of the groups at Indigo that are hiring: \- Marketplace: matching growers producing high quality crops with buyers who need that quality. Giving farmers a reason to produce crops that are better than commodity standard, produced in better ways. \- Transport: contract trucking services to allow farms to sell their products, efficiently, well beyond their current reach \- Agronomy/Precision Agriculture: giving farmers the tools and expertise they need to improve their efficiency while reducing environmental impact. \- Remote Sensing: supplementing Indigo's and growers' knowledge of fields with continuously updating global observations from satellites \- Carbon Sequestration (terraton.org): sequestering a trillion tons of carbon dioxide into agricultural soils to improve soil quality while slowing the march of climate change

If you are interested, please apply on our website or feel free to reach out to me directly at email@example.com. I'm a software engineer who works across a number of the above groups. I'd love to chat or put you in touch with the right person.

<comment><USER15> None of the jobs are explicitly remote - any heuristics for identifying which roles are remote friendly?

<comment><USER16> I work on the marketplace team—most of our software engineering roles are remote friendly, especially on the marketplace and transport teams. I recommend applying as we have a strong ratio of remote folks and can place you in teams where that's well supported.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> [http://growbot.online](http://growbot.online) (GrowPotBot) YC W2018 is an open source positronic (AI) aeroponic residential and lightweight industrial gardening appliance.

the tech stack fits into multiple platforms, we spent the last few years in China and Malaysia understanding value engineering, manufacturing logistics.

we're hoping to ship in major retailers starting in 2020 with an incredibly low < $100 'in cabinet' unit that can produce peppers, tomatoes and cannabis (or whatever you want). the primary differentiator is the cost and intelligence of the unit targeted at high yield strains of food and medicine in small spaces.

we're hoping to make them so cheap we can nearly give them away and make indoor urban farming "a thing" before climate change really kicks into full gear and destroys outdoor gardens.

positronic "closed loop" garden, happy to share what we're working on with other like minded people and collaborating with other growers internationally on open-data standards for storing this data and compiled models.

<comment><USER17> Sounds like a very promising venture. I like that you're willing to share the data and are offering an intelligence unit.

Have you thought of implementing experimental designs at scale? like you're intelligence unit could organize large scale controlled experiments on possible improvements in technique/process/genetics with willing participants. Since all the systems are controlled, closed loop, and use the same equipment a lot of variance that is present in typical ag experiments would be avoided. This combined with a high number of participants to replicate the experiment could offer a robust platform for rapid improvement via citizen science.

<comment><USER9> Thanks @thatcat .. I need to credit micckey at Post Scarcity Robotics for the inspiration to collaborate, that's been my primary driver the last few months to find other people who are like minded and work with them. [https://github.com/limikael/ideas/blob/master/PostScarcityRo...](https://github.com/limikael/ideas/blob/master/PostScarcityRobotics.md)

My primary focus is on the scale, implementing something that is both safe, easy to operate (idiot proof) and environmentally friendly (negative carbon footprint).

My goal is to be able to self realize an economy of scale as it pertains to my own AI/IA interests. Robotic assembly, etc. but not necessarily bringing it to foxconn -- at the same time secure enough that if you want to run it over tor and grow psychadelic cactus in the desert you can do that too -- although it will require loading your own custom software.

I'm a 3rd generation farming family (in general ornamental agriculture) and I've been designing these systems myself for years. I expect humans to screw up this planet in the next 10-20 years and so these are what we'll need to survive in our bunkers; I don't want any shitty drm or anything.

The AI is also a bit complex; but the goal is to allow the units to work together in a quorum for fault tolerance. I literally expect these devices to keep people alive, and hopefully eliminate food deserts at the same time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> FBN was recently started in 2014 by 2 guys from the Silicon Valley area. So far, they focus on data analytics (e.g. seed yields).

There are various articles about them and youtube videos:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=FBN+"farmers+business+networ...](https://www.google.com/search?q=FBN+"farmers+business+network"+Amol+Deshpande+Charles+Baron)

[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fbn+farmers+bus...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fbn+farmers+business+network)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oML9yLjTfk8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oML9yLjTfk8)

<comment><USER19> I'm an engineer at FBN.

We do more than data these days; it's best to say we do anything we can to help farmers' bottom line.

In the past year or so we've started offering health insurance, started a seed company, and brokerage.

That means we can help farmers with their inputs before the season, decisions during the season with data analysis, and selling outputs afterwords.

And of course we're hiring!

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I think we're doing interesting work at Apollo Agriculture ([https://apolloagriculture.com](https://apolloagriculture.com))!

We work with smallholder farmers in subsaharan africa (currently Kenya) to help them transition to commercial farming. Basically, we sell them a package of the seed, fertilizer, advice, insurance, and training that they need to substantially improve their yield and profits. We're moving towards helping farmers shift to a diversified blend of crops and providing market access.

(In most of the developed world, these are all provided by different players, but the challenges of a developing market push us to offer them all together.)

If you're interested in chatting, either drop a comment here or shoot me an email at (earl at apolloagriculture dot com).

<comment><USER21> I'm interested in chatting and have emailed you earlier but never got a response. Our organisation (precisionag.org) also works in Kenya among other countries, we provide smallholder farmers with personalized agronomic advice over SMS and voice systems. We're always looking for partners and we use a lot of experimental economics to fine tune and validate our approaches. (One of our founders just won the Nobel prize for economic sciences.)

</comment></comment><comment> aaron-santos I'm the data science lead at [http://agrian.com](http://agrian.com). Shoot me a message if you want to chat (email in profile). I love talking about this topic and trading notes.

<comment><USER22> That link doesn't seem to work, btw.

<comment> aaron-santos Thanks for the heads up. It redirects to [https://home.agrian.com/](https://home.agrian.com/).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Opinion coming from someone who studied Agribusiness but works in high technology.

Farmwise.io is doing some really excellent work. We have a big problem these days with getting low cost labor in California that our Ag producers have traditionally relied on. I also find the team at planet.com to be doing incredibly valuable work that has some really profound and broad applications for agriculture.

</comment><comment><USER24> You need to look north:

[https://www.farmersedge.ca/](https://www.farmersedge.ca/) ; precision farming, exited by Kleiner Perkins via sale to Prem Watsa of Fairfax Financial

[https://seedotrun.com/](https://seedotrun.com/) ; autonomous farming

[https://www.seedmaster.ca](https://www.seedmaster.ca) ; precision farming

These companies actually have customers and / or are well on their way to commercialization

<comment><USER25> Very cool to see these posted here (they're in my backyard). Interestingly, DOT and Seedmaster have a very close relationship. Last time I was out there, DOT equipment was being fabricated by folks in the Seedmaster shop.

<comment><USER24> started by the same dude, share common ownership

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I know of two:

[https://artemisag.com/](https://artemisag.com/) — Artemis (previously Agrilyst) won TechCrunch Disrupt SF a few years ago, and is building a management platform for enterprise-scale indoor farms.

[https://farmtogether.com/](https://farmtogether.com/) — FarmTogether is a platform that allows anyone to invest in US farmland

(Source: I was an early employee at Artemis, and a friend from high school is a cofounder of FarmTogether)

</comment><comment><USER27> FarmLogs (YC W12). It was the site of my first internship and I really couldn't have had a better experience.

[https://farmlogs.com](https://farmlogs.com)

</comment><comment><USER28> Agriculture is the single most destructive human activity. It is the primary cause of the extraordinary biodiversity loss we had the last 80 years.

We lost half of all life in numbers [https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/oct-19-2019-understanding- th...](https://www.cbc.ca/radio/quirks/oct-19-2019-understanding-the- anthropocene-extinction-regenerating-cartilage-and- more-1.5324707/understanding-extinction-humanity-has-destroyed-half-the-life- on-earth-1.5324721), agriculture is the primary cause of that.

Look with your own eyes what is left only 150 years after we arrived in Western Australia, [https://earth.google.com/web/@-33.86075979,117.66498741,330....](https://earth.google.com/web/@-33.86075979,117.66498741,330.68848829a,331368.4989268d,35y,355.03129926h,0t,0r) and most of that happened in the last 50 years.

So anything we can do to increase yield, and restoring current agricultural land to original habitat, as far as that is possible, is a very worthy cause.

</comment><comment><USER29> Check [https://www.tend.com/](https://www.tend.com/) out, this startup has gone public since 2016, I'm one of their beta users. Its a suite that help you make growing plan, keeping track of almost everything needed during your farming processes, your plants, your tasks, when to harvest, your soil test records,... They've been developing some other tools that will eventually help you sell your farm produces. Here's what they say "We're a small startup that's passionate about building tools to help organic farmers grow quality food and run successful farming businesses. We started Tend with farmers in mind, and are proud to have team members who've farmed throughout the U.S. and Latin America. We're also fortunate to have a first-class technology and engineering team who've spent many years working in startups and larger tech companies. Most of all, we're proud of our close relationships with the organic and diversified farmers who use Tend to manage their farm."

<comment><USER30> Hey benj1502 -

I've heard about Tend from my friend farmers but haven't try it out. The features from the website [1] looks like what I need.

[1] [https://www.tend.com/page/how-it- works.html](https://www.tend.com/page/how-it-works.html)

Edit: wow the blogs are really nice [https://www.tend.com/blog.html](https://www.tend.com/blog.html)

<comment><USER29> Give it a try vinicius_ng, lemme know if I can help, I'm quite familiar with it now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> The worst part about startups and agriculture is trying to bridge the two. I spend a LOT of time thinking about the shortcomings in agriculture and how I'd do it better. So many areas for advancing a current technology. But then I'm often hindered by a simple question -- "Can I turn this into a startup?" I use Paul Graham's definition [0] as a litmus test and always fail to complete the necessary circle.

I've recently decided "to hell with it" and am diving in. I'm hustling as a hemp farmer now. Learning a lot. Especially about how to actually become a farmer. The different types of farmers. How other conventional farmers can actually make it.

I'm coming up with lots of ideas, but still no silver bullets. No unicorns. I see all these companies posted here and agree that most will be very beneficial and influential in the future. But will any see 10% weekly growths? Unlikely. But I'm always enthusiastic and hopeful that they will.

Right now the average age for a US farmer is 59 [1]. Assuming they can make it to retirement, we'll begin cresting in farmer turn-over in 5 years. The problem is many will be selling out to the highest bidder if they don't already have somebody lined up to take over the reigns. That will be the already established, large, industrial scale commercial farming operation.

So back to my original point, how can we bridge the startup world with agriculture? No idea. But I'm hopeful one of these companies do.

0: [http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html)

1: [https://modernfarmer.com/2018/06/by-the-numbers-state-of- the...](https://modernfarmer.com/2018/06/by-the-numbers-state-of-the- independent-farmer/)

<comment><USER32> I'd be surprised if your average small/med farmer retires at 65 in the US. I'd guess an average above 70.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> HN-style site for agtech and foodtech: [https://feedit.agfunder.com/](https://feedit.agfunder.com/)

Im with Agfunder, we built this with Django, with thanks to [https://github.com/nikolak/django_reddit](https://github.com/nikolak/django_reddit)

</comment><comment><USER34> I did some interesting work in this space. With several thousand seasons of data I used an MLP network to visualize phenotypic plasticity (how plants react to a range of environmental conditions).

Accurately cleaning the input data proved to be extremely important, because there's a tremendous amount of "noise" at the individual level when dealing with living organisms, so lots of high-quality data is necessary to tease out relationships. Establishing causality was also important, considering the potential for confounding variables.

It also gave me a chance to brush up on my React/front end skills, but that was more ancillary.

[https://sproutling.ai/blog/harvest- simulations?jm2](https://sproutling.ai/blog/harvest-simulations?jm2)

[https://sproutling.ai/blog/growth- simulations?jm2](https://sproutling.ai/blog/growth-simulations?jm2)

</comment><comment><USER35> You might be interested in IronOx: [http://ironox.com/](http://ironox.com/)

Indoor produce grown "by robots with love"

</comment><comment><USER36> I'm an application developer at Semios (Vancouver, BC).

Semios has one of the largest IoT networks in agriculture to gather and analyze data to help farmers drive data-driven solutions. The network collects micro-climate data to predict disease and pest risk, alert growers of risks in real-time, and help improve water efficiency.

We have a complex stack composed of hardware, embedded, applications, data engineers and data scientists. We're hiring!

As an example, Semios helps growers reduce pest populations organically by disrupting the insect communication channels using pheromone released by IoT devices in the field. We track the effectiveness of pheromone using cameras in the field, and machine-learning algorithms to count pests.

[https://www.semios.com](https://www.semios.com)

<comment><USER37> and we're hiring! [https://semios.com/jobs/](https://semios.com/jobs/)

<comment><USER38> Interested to know more about the data science infrastructure. Is there someone you could connect me with?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Take a look at the comments in [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20910845](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20910845) (36 points, 44 days ago, 19 comments) , perhaps the farmers use more technology than you think.

</comment><comment><USER40> I worked for The Climate Corporation when it was acquired by Monsanto (now Bayer) for $1B.

There is certainly plenty of potential for innovative tech in agriculture, but it's a really tough space. Machine learning and big data are not magic bullets. The level of noise in experimental measurements is very high, which makes it difficult to prove the effectiveness of almost any intervention.

Climate Corp did (and still does) sell a SAS product advising growing decisions based on machine learning. But the price of that product has fallen dramatically over time, and now it's nearly free. The premium product now has a _list_ price of $1/acre vs. expected grower revenue of ~$700/acre (for corn in the US). What does that say about the value the software provides?

<comment><USER6> Is this FieldView?

Well..hold my beer! Field view collected so much data that the farmer doesn't need(aka can't use). And paid for it.

There is so much data in the field that is worth more than the crop that is being sold. So..no..the farmer doesn't get to monetize it. Farmers shouldn't have to pay for any data collected that isn't used by him but can be commoditized.

In fact farmers should be PAID for allowing companies to extract data. They are mining data from our fields and making US pay for it. It's like how Tom Sawyer painted his fence!

<comment><USER40> There is undoubtedly some value in this data, but it is far less than you think. Despite the hype about big data, it's hard to draw firm conclusions from any uncontrolled observational trial.

Consider how often nutrition studies contradict each other. We still don't know for sure if it's better to eat less red meat!

Having spent a bit of time working in this space, I can assure you that it is basically the same scenario. If Climate Corp could prove that the data they are collecting with FieldView was valuable, they would be making a heck of a lot more money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> [https://www.descarteslabs.com](https://www.descarteslabs.com) \- Satellite imagery for predictive intelligence, lots of work in agtech for things like crop yields.

</comment><comment><USER42> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned AppHarvest yet. The NYT[1] recently covered them.

Their investor list in and of itself is pretty interesting.

Plus, their building out of Morehead, Ky. Morehead was the "big city" when I was growing up, so it's cool to see innovation there.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/business/appharvest- green...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/business/appharvest-greenhouse- kentucky-agriculture.html)

</comment><comment><USER43> I am the CTO of Grownetics and we are about to open source our stack. [https://grownetics.co/](https://grownetics.co/)

</comment><comment><USER44> Definitely want to take the time to throw out a huge recommendation for FBN (Farmers Business Network), a KPCB/Google Ventures backed startup that's doing really cool work in data analysis + aggregation + insights for farmers.

For the sake of clarity, I was an intern there, but I objectively think that their approach is very insightful and hits a lot of key points that many ag startups get wrong. Two of my biggest personal takeaways were that obsession with farm yields doesn't actually translate very well to increased profits, because there are so many other factors and costs (and risk) in farm operations. Furthermore, because of all these other operations (e.g. researching better seed varieties, buying inputs, loans in order to buy inputs and hope that they can be repaid later when harvest time comes), there is a huge need to address pervasive and complex issues with regards to the entire farming enterprise, not just the yield portion. FBN does a really great job at tackling the holistic approach, which I think really helps increase the effectiveness of FBN's product and makes it a really powerful tool.

Definitely check it out! [https://www.fbn.com](https://www.fbn.com)

<comment><USER6> Two thumbs up. FBN has been doing remarkable progress and have taken innovative approaches to farming and Ag. They really do help farmers. I wish them the very best and hope they go from strength to strength. I really do appreciate what they do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> [http://picktrace.com/](http://picktrace.com/) (YCS15) was in our batch. Both the founders grew up on a farm and build tools for people to use out in the field like how to accurately keep track the number of baskets of strawberries a worker picked so they get paid the right amount when there's no WiFi or cellular connection.

I always thought it was interesting.

</comment><comment><USER46> I work at [https://www.agrigateone.com/](https://www.agrigateone.com/)

We aggregate data for growers and buyers of fresh perishables to better facilitate trades.

Must say agri / food is a fascinating industry to work in.

The tech problems don't seem to be well known or often solved when compared to other industries I've worked in...which is both awesome and frustrating haha

<comment><USER47> @janee - This is an industry I am trying to learn more about and get into as well. Would love to get some advice. Is there a way to get in touch? My email is on my profile if you'd prefer to not leave info on here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I work at [https://tech.vidacycle.com](https://tech.vidacycle.com) . We are a small startup building a set of tools to monitor vines, soils and fruits. We help farmers to gain knowledge about the ecosystem they manage so they can make better decisions.

What an exciting thread! I've seen really cool projects here

</comment><comment><USER49> [edit: I overlooked the direct call-out to Indigo in the original post, my mistake. Nevertheless, I'll leave this as perhaps its helpful to others who don't know the company.]

Indigo Agriculture - [https://www.indigoag.com/](https://www.indigoag.com/)

I worked for a satellite imagery start-up who was acquired by Indigo in December of 2018. I'm obviously biased, but i can genuinely say that the level of innovation taking place throughout this company - towards so many different parts of the agricultural system - has not ceased to astound me since I joined.

They've managed to capture/create/cultivate one of those unique scenarios that rarely happens in any industry: a scenario where all participants benefit. They're helping consumers gain access to healthy, responsibly-sourced food, they're helping to make it profitable for the farmer to provide these foods, and they're helping to make it beneficial to the planet to produce them.

They started as a microbial seed treatment company. By coating seeds with naturally-occurring microbial organisms, these microbes would help crops by making them more resistant to harsh conditions like drought, heat, etc. Kind of like probiotics, but for plants.

Since then, they've expanded into many different parts of the agricultural system, but perhaps their most innovative & potentially impactful contribution is their most recent: the Terraton initiative. They're helping to remove a trillion tons of carbon from the atmosphere by making it financially beneficial for farmers to adopt regenerative agricultural practices to bring this carbon out of the air and into the soil.

I could go on, but the videos and content on their website describe their mission and their work better than I can. I'm really excited about the work we're doing there - I hope you'll think so too.

</comment><comment><USER50> [http://www.bluerivertechnology.com/](http://www.bluerivertechnology.com/)

Now owned by John Deere. Goal is 10x reduction in chemicals while doubling yields. We're deep in ml & robotics and our creations scale across the deere fleet touching most of the arable land in the world.

<comment><USER6> Hi! What is blue river technology's see and spray tech doing now? It disappeared from Salinas lettuce fields after JD bought them out.

<comment><USER50> Hey! We're moving it to row crops to save herbicide. I miss Salinas but stoked with what we're doing in the Midwest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I've seen the focus on the thread, fascinating.

The major focus is: To produce more.

I haven't seen one to Waste less. Inverse the balance sheet.

<comment><USER9> We're talking about synthetically accelerating organic life here.

If the byproduct is cleaner air through photosynthesis generated from renewable power is that really a problem? Isn't that just efficiency?

The concern isn't the waste -- it's that a lot of these industrial growers are building proprietary technology monoliths growing "stuff that looks like food" but isn't actually all that healthy and the public burden is falling on nationalized healthcare systems.

As such - there isn't enough work in the open-source sharing of telemetry data and experience between systems.

This is why industrial ag=tech owned by big global ag companies must be replaced with something that anybody and everybody can access.

The soil on the planet is in serious peril.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> [https://www.parabel.com/](https://www.parabel.com/) Florida based startup using water lentils to create a future plant-protein platform. Crop doubles in size every 24-36 hours allowing farms to harvest every day. 10x yield compared to soy or pea proteins.

</comment><comment><USER53> I'm one of the founding partners of AgFunder. You can see see a lot of startups in our annual investor report:

[https://agfunder.com/research/agrifood-tech-investing- report...](https://agfunder.com/research/agrifood-tech-investing-report-2018/)

</comment><comment><USER54> The big ones I don't see are:

Plenty - Indoor agriculture (raised over $200m)

[[https://www.plenty.ag](https://www.plenty.ag)]

Pivot Bio - Nitrogen fixation with engineered microbes

[[https://www.pivotbio.com/](https://www.pivotbio.com/)]

</comment><comment><USER55> I used to work here: [https://www.greensightag.com/](https://www.greensightag.com/)

They do autonomous UAVs for agricultural monitoring, using multi-spectral imaging and a computer vision pipeline to detect issues before farmers can.

</comment><comment><USER56> Hey I'm the lead roboticist with [https://farmwise.io/](https://farmwise.io/)

We're building autonomous devices for sustainable farming at scale; that means weeding without chemicals, reducing fertilizer utilization and building new methods for planting/harvesting.

For a roboticist this translates to building high quality odometry, actuation and navigation stacks. We have novel backend and real time systems challenges as well. I've worked on autonomous systems for several years now and have seen how effective solid software engineers are at building solutions in the robotics space.

Our company is product focused and has devices operating on farms today, feel free to reach out with any questions.

</comment><comment><USER57> [https://en.agricool.co](https://en.agricool.co) is a French startup perfecting its technology to grow fruit (they focus on strawberries) in containers, within cities, using very little water. They raised €25M last year.

</comment><comment><USER58> My side project is AutoMicroFarm ([https://automicrofarm.com](https://automicrofarm.com)). Currently working on [https://edible.estate/](https://edible.estate/)

</comment><comment><USER59> Tule helps farmers make irrigation decisions. We install a proprietary research-based sensor in farmers' fields. The sensor measures the water use and water stress of the plants in an entire field. Tule uses the field-scale plant data, as well as cutting-edge artificial intelligence models, to provide farmers with irrigation recommendations. Our customers span from the winemakers who farm California's most prized vineyards to the growers at the largest scale almond operations in the Central Valley. Tule is a profitable company whose mission is to help generations of farmers maximize production and more efficiently manage natural resources.

www.tuletechnologies.com

<comment><USER60> Hey Tom — nice to see you around. Dan from InnoVint here.

<comment><USER59> Hi Dan!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Hi,

I am looking for people in the image/satellite mapping industry. The idea is to map Indian farmland according to the survey no and provide the data directly to the farmer. Stack the data with the crop, soil, weather, market, buyer and it could be a solution to the whole Agri sector. If it is further mapped with land type data, Land purchase, subsidy, infra development red tape can be reduced to the extreme and the whole process could become transparent.

I have a couple of startups in mind who have the tech platform, but not the combined application stack.

I am looking for someone from a tech background to help with finalizing the whole setup. Connect me over at firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment><comment><USER6> You can find it all here. Definitive landscape guide maps for both Farm Agtech and Indoor Agtech. I don't think they missed a whole lot. Pretty sure there are more than a few that are in stealth mode. But this about sums it up.

1600 companies Agtech landscape map: [https://agfundernews.com/2019-06-04-agtech- landscape-2019-16...](https://agfundernews.com/2019-06-04-agtech- landscape-2019-1600-startups.html)

1000+ companies indoor Agtech landscape map: [http://mixingbowlhub.com/inside- indoor-agtech/](http://mixingbowlhub.com/inside-indoor-agtech/)

</comment><comment><USER61> Hi, I am looking for people in the image/satellite mapping industry. The idea is to map Indian farmland according to the survey no and provide the data directly to farmer. Stack the data with crop, soil, weather, market, buyer and it could be a solution to whole agri sector.

If it is further mapped with land type data, Land purchase, subsidy, infra development red tape can be reduced to the extreme and whole process could become transparent.

I have couple of stratups in mind who have the tech platform, but not the combined application stack.

I am looking for someone from tech backgroud to help with finalizing the whole setup. Connect me over at email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER62> ecoation - [https://www.ecoation.com/](https://www.ecoation.com/) \- robots for greenhouses (monitoring & analytics) - <USER2>

robotany / fifth season - [https://www.fifthseasonfresh.com/](https://www.fifthseasonfresh.com/) \- [https://www.cmu.edu/energy/news- multimedia/2018/robotany.htm...](https://www.cmu.edu/energy/news- multimedia/2018/robotany.html) \- vertical greenhouses - <USER3>

</comment><comment><USER63> On the farmer to consumer side, I've been using marketwagon for my dairy meat and produce and really like their products and business model. [https://marketwagon.com/pages/market-wagon-about- us](https://marketwagon.com/pages/market-wagon-about-us)

Its kinda a mash of Amazon food delivery and community supported agriculture. If you want to see smaller farms thrive, they have a pretty compelling service. So far they are Midwest only but hopefully they can expand, or similar services can start up in other regions.

</comment><comment><USER64> AeroFarms in Boston are one of the foremost aeroponic indoor food growth facilities, they do some interesting software too:

[https://aerofarms.com/](https://aerofarms.com/)

</comment><comment><USER65> www.orisha.io (In french) www.products.orisha.io

We are a modest startup that aims at developping tools for smaller farmers. We developed a greenhouse growing assistant that helps the community-supported agriculture folks.

We are currently considering developping: * Automating irrigation with tensiometers (humidity sensors). And potentially use forecast and solar radiation. * A production management tool * A project to help reduce the use of fossil energy in greenhouse heating

And for the functional programming enthusiasts out there: We are currently hiring !

Contact me for more info: email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER66> Cover Crop Exchange [https://covercropexchange.com](https://covercropexchange.com)

Providing a marketplace for buyers and sellers of cover crop seeds. We deal with licensing, shipping/logistics, ordering, payouts, etc. Diversify your farming income by growing and selling cover crop seeds.

hybrid85 https:://hybrid85.com

$85/unit Non-GMO (Conventional) seed corn. Maximize your profitability by lowering your input costs. Utilizing off-patent genetics that perform as well as "the big guys".

<comment><USER66> Oops! Correct link for hybrid85 is:

[https://hybrid85.com](https://hybrid85.com)

(can't find the edit button on hacker news)

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> I run the product team for [https://farmdog.ag/](https://farmdog.ag/) Our mission is to significantly reduce the use of pesticides.

</comment><comment><USER68> I co-founded a beehive monitor startup with my brothers in New Zealand (they run it now): [https://hivemind.nz](https://hivemind.nz)

It's an electronic device that sits underneath your beehives and weighs the amount of honey in the hive, sending data back via satellite modem (because beehives are often remote, so cellular doesn't always work). It also measures a bunch of other important stuff important for bee health: temperature, humidity, bee activity.

</comment><comment><USER69> A long while ago I did LED lighting research (hence my name) and specialized vertical farming techniques which would drastically reduce land usage and resource usage, and could be entirely solar-powered in some parts of the world.

Too bad the owners of that business sold it for cheap and my work somehow got lost. Not like I couldn't recreate it all from my mind, but it certainly isn't in full-scale use today, just trial setups in a couple of countries which might still be operational.

</comment><comment> david-gpu [https://www.agrobot.com](https://www.agrobot.com) is developing a robot to pick strawberries. Pretty sophisticated, too.

</comment><comment><USER70> I'm doing some work for a startup that wants to automate greenhouse climate control.

The software automatically manages lighting, climate, irrigation based on long term growth strategies, real time sensor data and energy prices.

This saves time spent manually managing greenhouse climate, and money due to improved crop and energy management.

We're hiring! Looking for a data scientist with a mind for optimization problems. The Netherlands, Delft region.

<comment><USER71> You must be jeroen

<comment><USER70> Maybe I am, maybe I ain't... ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Just yesterday I got invited to interview at AgriTask [1].

> _An AG-management platform that turns agriculture data into smart tools for > planning and decision making._

I don't know much about them aside from this line from one of their recruiters; check them out if you want.

By the way, they are hiring a couple of remote workers if anyone is interested.

[1] [https://www.agritask.com/](https://www.agritask.com/)

<comment><USER73> Source/go-to link? The website doesn't seem to mention any hiring.

<comment><USER72> I don't have a linkable source because I was invited via email by one of their recruiters.

However, if you search the name of the company along with the word "hiring" it returns the following:

• [https://www.peersight.in/job/agritask-software- engineer](https://www.peersight.in/job/agritask-software-engineer)

Although it seems that the job has already been fulfilled, according to this post on LinkedIn:

• [https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/1073965883/](https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/1073965883/)

Which is weird because they contacted me less than 24 hours ago.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> I'm with [https://www.agworld.com](https://www.agworld.com) \- a platform that connects farmers with agronomists and other advisors and helps them manage their farm data. Everything with the aim of enabling farmers to make more profitable decisions.

We just had our 10 year anniversary.. it's been a long road but definitely very rewarding!

</comment><comment><USER75> I'm a co-founder of biofrack: [https://biofrack.com](https://biofrack.com)

We use fracking techniques to restructure and amend soil at shallow depths with biochar. This improves drainage, allows for deep application of slow release fertilizer, and is a carbon negative process that sequesters carbon deeper than would ever occur naturally.

</comment><comment><USER76> Not a startup but Cisco is testing wireless-connected monitoring systems for cows and a robotic milking machine [https://www.reuters.com/article/us- telecoms-5g-cows/5g-conne...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us- telecoms-5g-cows/5g-connected-cows-test-milking-parlor-of-the-future- idUSKCN1RN1IY)

</comment><comment><USER77> Speaking as a customer. I want an any sized farmbot. I'd buy that product in a second. I even offered a bounty in the farmbot forums recently:

[https://forum.farmbot.org/t/any-size-farmbot-with-a-cash- bou...](https://forum.farmbot.org/t/any-size-farmbot-with-a-cash-bounty-lets- kill-the-pesticide-industry/5540)

</comment><comment><USER78> BinMeasure is using LIDAR units and some clever feed-shape algorithms to calculate the feed volume remaining in agricultural feed bins. Instead of sending a person out to climb the bins and look in the top (the current method), you get the info on a mobile phone app.

[https://www.binmeasure.com/](https://www.binmeasure.com/)

<comment><USER79> I'm very interested in hearing more about this - I messaged your team on Facebook yesterday, but haven't heard back from them yet.

My family is heavily involved in ag, and I have several close friends and relatives involved in the poultry business specifically. I see some ways that this could be marketed both directly to poultry growers and to producers. Producers should be interested in very large deployments, while growers have their own incentives that may not be obvious outside the business.

I'd love if we could chat. You can reach me here, or by email at lyndsy@<my user name>.com

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> Looks like no one has mentioned Nori: [https://nori.com/](https://nori.com/). They are doing good work around creating a marketplace where you can buy carbon credits. From their site: "Nori's platform makes it straightforward for companies to pay farmers for storing carbon in soil."

<comment><USER81> I wonder how many people will actually buy this. Personally, I would rather get a box full of veggies than some internet karma.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's worth posting this article on this thread for anybody interested why the high tech ag industry is retarded.

[https://www.businessinsider.com.au/mit-media-lab-personal- fo...](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/mit-media-lab-personal-food- computers-dont-work-fake-staff-say-2019-9?r=US&IR=T)

</comment><comment><USER82> Here's one I just saw: [https://www.blueoceanbarns.com](https://www.blueoceanbarns.com)

Elemental Excelerator looks like it has about 10 ag startups: [https://elementalexcelerator.com/companies/](https://elementalexcelerator.com/companies/)

</comment><comment><USER83> One of my clients which I'm proud of, Phytech, is deploying huge number of plant sensors to measure their status and help save water by planning how much to irrigate.

They are doing very well and have huge customers in the US and Australia.

[https://youtu.be/MuWRDZEJ934](https://youtu.be/MuWRDZEJ934)

</comment><comment><USER84> [https://bearflagrobotics.com/](https://bearflagrobotics.com/)

</comment><comment><USER85> [https://boweryfarming.com/](https://boweryfarming.com/)

</comment><comment><USER86> In europe, [https://eagronom.com/](https://eagronom.com/) is taking an interesting approach - rather than throw all existing farming practices out with the bathwater, try to build on top of them and modernize to achieve sustainable farming.

</comment><comment><USER87> [https://plantix.net/en/](https://plantix.net/en/) plantix app, a Berlin based startup is used primarily by farmers in India. It uses computer vision to identify crop nutrient deficiencies and diseases.

</comment><comment><USER88> [https://www.indigoag.com](https://www.indigoag.com)

</comment><comment><USER89> Here is my ad: Corang.info is the world first fully sustainable property development. It combines renewable energy with food production and housing. The project has 'negative emissions'.

If it works we plan to make lots of similar projects in Australia and Asia.

</comment><comment><USER90> If you search for agtech you can find things like this: [https://agfundernews.com/2019-06-04-agtech- landscape-2019-16...](https://agfundernews.com/2019-06-04-agtech- landscape-2019-1600-startups.html)

</comment><comment><USER91> I run www.sunnyirrigation.com in Nairobi. We originate solar irrigation loans to smallhold farmers, so it is a combination of agtech and fintech. Growth areas in credit-model building, IoT data processing, in short - we heart engineers :)

</comment><comment><USER92> Infarm [https://infarm.com/](https://infarm.com/) offer indoor farming to restaurants and supermarkets. They are opening a lot of new locations in Europe right now (mainly in Germany).

</comment><comment><USER93> My friend just started working at Agricycle global. [https://www.agricycleglobal.com/](https://www.agricycleglobal.com/)

One of their products is a charcoal for your grill made out of coconut shells.

</comment><comment><USER94> Atfarm - [https://at.farm](https://at.farm) \- uses satellite data to provide precision fertilization maps for farmers across the globe. (Disclaimer: involvement in the setup)

</comment><comment><USER95> TerrAvion (W14): [https://www.terravion.com](https://www.terravion.com)

We're what happened when drone companies realized you couldn't fly the entire corn belt with a drone.

</comment><comment><USER96> Halter.co.nz has built smart collars for grazing animals that record their data and also automatically move them. Really ambitious project that will change grass based (healthy meat) farming if they nail it.

<comment><USER97> Others have sold "smart collars" for years.

Compared to a Lely robotic milking system [2], which uses "smart collars" to identify the cows, that's primitive.

[1] [https://modernfarmer.com/2016/01/wearable-devices- livestock/](https://modernfarmer.com/2016/01/wearable-devices-livestock/)

[2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozhU7h8vbE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ozhU7h8vbE)

<comment><USER96> From the basis of reducing capital outlay, increasing pasture utilisation, improving omega3:omega6 fatty acid ratios in steroid and antibiotic free meat, and maximising productive use of marginal land - "primitive" is exactly the correct term for what Halter is aiming to achieve.

Importing corn, to feed a cow in a shed, then milk it three times a day, using a robot that breaks down regularly, and coupling it with a collar, that doesn't detect estrous more effectively than a primitive farmer who just observes his cows and isn't an expert in the maintenance of 10 robots - is the current state of modern agricultural technology.

Unfortunately the Lely salesman, the bank manager, and the farmer are unaware that maintaining multiple complex robots on farms is not profitable and that one state of the art robot to 50 cows or so is a waste of capital that only exists due to farmer subsidies and the tediousness of milk-harvesting.

Halter has the lead in this space currently because

Their collars remotely move the animals - this is a good thing when those animals evolved to graze pasture. The collar does anything the other collars do to a higher standard plus a lot of other things which are important to farming grass profitably.

Also while those Lely robots are uneconomic presently - at some point in the next 5 years - a single robot that sits in the cups on side of a rotary cowshed and milks 350 cows per hour will come on the market.

So the halter collar will move the cows to the pasture and back to the cowshed and one cost effective robot will milk them. Producing healthy food at a lower cost which is good for everybody except for subsidised corn farmers who are I feel are slowly poisoning the world.

They have some fairly decent backing, I think they secured 8m in their last round. The founder of Rocket Lab sits on their board. They are certainly doing interesting work in the agricultural space, and there is nothing wrong with primitive. We evolved for 600 million years or so and using technology that respects rather than exploits evolution is generally healthy.

The dairy-farmer in video [2] gets a subsidy from the government as does the corn farmer who supplies corn for his cows. The thing is the dairy-farmer would make more money - and everyone would be healthier if there was no subsidised corn in the system. Also one of the reasons that New Zealand farmers are innovative and produce healthier food from pasture that is cost competitive globally including delivery is, that they don't get any subsidies. None. Nothing. They eat what they kill from a natural economic and environmental system.

The good ol boys and the Europeans run farms in protected markets that are only economically viable with their taxpayers topping them up. Doesn't read like a fertile space for innovation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> I've been impressed by some of the computer vision work Aerobotics are doing. EG counting and sizing citrus from drones, pest detection etc. Super solid data science team, from the chats I've had.

</comment><comment><USER99> I thought this product sounds interesting:

[https://www.sprowtlabs.com/](https://www.sprowtlabs.com/)

To achieve malting (the germination and kilning of barley etc) on a small scale.

</comment><comment><USER100> [https://tanibox.com](https://tanibox.com) we are doing farm management and monitoring platform. We released an open-source software too called Tania.

</comment><comment><USER101> [https://www.mytrev.com/](https://www.mytrev.com/)

Trev is a farm reporting tool to provide insight into farm operations and performance.

Startup based in New Zealand.

</comment><comment><USER102> One that I heard about last year and have been following – [https://www.smallrobotcompany.com/](https://www.smallrobotcompany.com/)

</comment><comment><USER103> These guys are making an apple picking robot that's pretty bad ass: [https://www.abundantrobotics.com](https://www.abundantrobotics.com)

<comment><USER99> Nice, that's cool, is that using a vacuum pump for the picking part?

<comment><USER103> Yup.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER104> You could look at sustainability accelerators. For example, my company participated in the Techstars - Nature Conservancy accelerator. Almost 900 sustainability startups applied.

</comment><comment><USER105> Strider (strider.ag), where I work at, is a segment leader in Latin America, and FarmShots (YC alumn) (farmshots.com) and Cropio (about.cropio.com) are some other examples.

</comment><comment><USER106> [https://heavywateraero.com/](https://heavywateraero.com/) Heavy water aero is trying to do some pretty cool stuff.

</comment><comment><USER107> Plenty - Indoor vertical farming that's already in the California market. [http://www.plenty.ag](http://www.plenty.ag)

</comment><comment><USER108> WaterBit — [https://Waterbit.com](https://Waterbit.com) — real hardware deployed on real farms.

</comment><comment><USER109> [https://www.agerpoint.com](https://www.agerpoint.com) high-resolution crop data through LiDAR

</comment><comment><USER110> [https://www.smart-ag.com/](https://www.smart-ag.com/) \- Autonomous tractors

</comment><comment><USER111> * The Climate Corporation

* Granular

* Farmer's Business Network

* Inari

* Pattern Ag

* Solum

* Arable Labs

<comment><USER112> Worth noting that The Climate Corporation is owned by Monsanto which in turned is owned by Bayes.

<comment><USER113> and Granular is owned by Corteva (previously DuPont Pioneer) which is was just spun out from the Dow-DuPont merger

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER114> [https://gro-intelligence.com/](https://gro-intelligence.com/)

</comment><comment><USER115> Farmers Business Network - [https://www.fbn.com](https://www.fbn.com)

</comment><comment><USER116> [https://pycno.co](https://pycno.co) \- soil sensors and IoT stuff

</comment><comment><USER117> [https://resson.com/](https://resson.com/)

</comment><comment><USER60> Us at InnoVint have made an app for wine production, as well as vineyard analytic tools.

We're hiring too!

www.innovint.us

</comment><comment><USER118> [https://wefarm.co](https://wefarm.co)

</comment><comment><USER119> Picking squishy fruits without bruising them is apparently quite difficult

</comment><comment><USER120> www.localrootsfarms.com

Shipping container-based vertical farms, primarily for leafy greens

</comment><comment><USER121> Check out agfundernews.com

</comment><comment><USER122> Check out growers.

</comment><comment><USER123> following...very, very exciting.

</comment><comment><USER124> arable.com

</comment><comment><USER125> I'm sure this will just get lost in, but hey I'll say it anyway.

I've worked in aquaculture science for years before I moved onto programming (Pays better / I don't have to worry about farm alarms going off at 2 am). I've worked in nearly every type of far. I've been at some of the most cutting edge Recirculatory aquaculture systems in the UK, and I've taught degree and master students in the field.

Its a dishearting situation right now. Company after company in this field seems to be going bust because they keep having their technology stolen by the Chinese state.

Other than Salmon farming the UK aquaculture industry is fucked. Even if you automated everything, it's still cheaper to produce aquaculture products in third world countries and ship it in. The recirculatory aquaculture field as it stands is dependant on EU grants. (Which have stopped because of Brexit) And also renewable energy grants. A few years back, the government would pay you money to heat water with a biomass boiler. So it was and maybe still is to run a RAS system without fish in it.

I'm currently working on some R&D with Giant freshwater prawns (Macrobrachium rosenbergii,) to hopefully farm blue claws so that they form in higher densities. But this is only a side project and until major legislative change happens warm water aquaculture in the UK is fucked.</comment>


The most expensive goverment staff in the world!? - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/09/01/why-san-francisco-is-in-trouble--19000-highly-compensated-city-employees-earned-150000-in-pay--perks/#73a5ab6f3769 <comment><AUTHOR> My impression is that engineers earn a lot in the Silicon Valley, but they might be shadowed by the City government staff.</comment>


Re: Facebook acquires Oculus, a letter of concern - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/p/f8589a747d11 <comment><USER2> I believe that Facebook's acquisition strategy follows Microsoft's 1990s playbook, even if that's not the conscious intent.

Facebook's core product is now in a similar position as Windows was twenty years ago. The near term will require pleasing shareholders by milking the monopoly, but the company is worried about missing future trends. To avoid that, they buy interesting startups with promises of independence. For Microsoft, that included companies like WebTV, Hotmail, Softimage, Bungie...

Compared to Facebook's acquisitions, Instagram is more like Hotmail whereas Oculus is more like WebTV -- a bet on an emerging technology that holds a lot of potential even though it's not obvious how it will integrate into the parent company's core product. (Yes, there was a time when "web on a TV" seemed like a revolutionary idea not unlike "consumer VR" today.)

<comment><USER3> Bungie before Microsoft... thanks for reminding of those great game series like Marathon and Myth.

<comment><USER4> Bungie after Microsoft: Halo. Another great memory!

<comment><USER5> Except Halo was developed before Microsoft bought them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Here's the most reasonable disaster scenario I can foresee: Zuckerberg is not personally invested in the technology, but believes a general audience can make it very profitable. Technical execution of version 1 is perfectly successful. Core gamers generally buy the product, but the larger market is uninterested because of usage limitations (headset size and portability and/or lack of compelling enough uses outside of gaming). However, the number of sales is not large enough to justify continued investment. Facebook needs to find a large buyer to divest themselves of the technology profitably.

If they do not, the patent cache they hold chills any potential competition for fear of developing a market being ripped out from under them.

<comment><USER7> That's depressing. I completely overlooked the importance of patents for VR.

I'd be interested in finding out the major VR patent holders other than Oculus and what they are sitting on; it has been argued here and elsewhere that the requirement for deep pockets for patent suits was one factor driving the deal with Facebook.

Rephrased for clarity

<comment><USER8> Well, one of the reasons we hear a lot about VR, like 3d printing is that key patents have expired.

What are they going to patent?

Having a gyroscope in your head? A screen attached to your eyes? low persistence screens(valve idea)?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I could very well be an anomaly, but I don't want to utilize a game device in which I have to associate my Facebook account (yes, I still have one). I don't care how fast you get it to market or how much lower it will cost. I don't want to login to anything with my FB credentials, there is too much personal information in the weight of that authorization. Way more than what I want to give to play a game (and I do love gaming).

And Yes, I have a hollow Hotmail account that is linked to my Xbox Live account - however I like to try to keep everything as segregated as possible. Its a constant battle to keep my information hubs segregated and this acquisition is one step closer to me just abstaining from certain tech that makes me cross hubs.

<comment><USER10> You could create a new account that you only use for playing.

<comment><USER11> Still no.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Carmack says that he wants objective arguments, not emotional ones, and all this blog presents is yet another emotional argument. All that stuff about the community 'roaring' is avoidable hyperbole.

<comment><USER13> Oh you have to define what an _objective argument_ is. In the real world, you can see where this is going. Do you believe that Zuck gives a damn about advancing any technology, or that he is trying to position himself as best as possible in the market?

All these concerns are valid concerns and not just many _if 's_ and if they are not addressed now, in the future will be (already is actually but anyway) too late to do anything.

Say you are developing a game (which is the case here) or a 3D application based on OR. Now you might be ready for a bunch of AppStore-like rules to kick-in. This could make your product obsolete in no-time.

I don't think that the concerns of the community are irrational, quite the opposite... The community is concerned out of experience and knowledge of Facebook's prior policies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Well said. The key point here is autonomy. It is no small matter to relinquish decision making power of your company to an entirely separate set of executives. I would argue that, by definition, you are no longer even the same company. If critical decisions are why executives are so heavily compensated, then doesn't it follow that randomly replacing your entire executive team will change the company irreversibly?

As much as we'd love to believe that the Oculus team will still be there to stop terrible decisions from being made, they will soon realize that autonomy the most important currency in any business, project, or venture. Employees have little to no say in big decisions, which is why they do start-ups.

</comment><comment><USER15> TL;DR: "I don't have any rational reasons why I don't like this acquisition, but... Facebook!"

<comment><AUTHOR> TL;DR: Community felt betrayed and this damaged the ecosystem. Wish I had more advice for how to make acquisitions more successful, but this is a huge challenge every acquirer faces which remains largely unsolved (success rates are not very high).

<comment><USER16> TL;DR: Those who are leaving will not be missed. Others who see legitimate business opportunities in this space will fill the void by those that have departed and reap the rewards.

<comment><USER17> > Those who are leaving will not be missed. In other words, let's not > acknowledge that people might have legitimate gripes, reservations and > reasons for disliking this event. Let's not assume that they may have > identified real problems and risks involved that we could address or > consider.

No, they're just simply wrong in all respects and we're better off without them. They can be ignored.

<comment><USER16> If they are unwilling to commit capital, research or development then stuff them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> For me the explanation is much simpler: I do not trust Facebook.

Bring on the competitors to Oculus.

<comment><USER19> FB might buy them too. It is sometimes hard to see why big companies buy smaller companies, no matter what you may hear from their "founders" or CEOs, VR is certainly a threat to FB (even if it's a long way away from what it promises)just the same whatsapp was. FB is nothing but a "website" on the "internet" for the mainstream, VR promises to render " websites" and the "internet" completely obsolete and irrelevant. zucky may say that his goal is to have a more connected world, I believe right now that his goal is more to not have the world "disconnect" Facebook and render it/him obsolete. Either that or he just likes to buy expensive toys!

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> CEOs of multibillion dollar corporations do not spend millions acquring other companies so that they can make friends or support a vision. Anybody who thinks Zuckerberg wants to make quality VR headsets is delusional.

> Mark Zuckerberg may feel like he is making a benevolent investment in > society by advancing the roadmap of the Oculus Rift today

Give me a break.

<comment><USER21> What do you suggest he acquired the company for, then? To keep it out of the hands of Microsoft, as has been suggested?

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> A more plain concern is how Zuck works with new platforms. There is the prior example of their own Facebook Platform, which took off really fast, creating a new niche with hundreds of thousands of developers, only to be crippled a few years on, alienating developers with constant shifting technologies, choking of communication channels and exclusive contracts with certain companies.

Value is created in win-win situations, when both parties benefit. If developers fear they will not get their part of the win, it's unlikely the value will be created at all.

</comment><comment><USER23> _Numerous game developers abandoned their Oculus projects, the community roared in anger and disappointment._

I'd like to know more specifics about this. I know that Notch canceled plans for Minecraft on the Rift (though the Minecrift mod of course still exists), but besides him what projects have been canceled as a result of the Facebook news? I've been following news on Reddit's /r/oculus pretty closely, and while I saw some posts by users mentioning that they were no longer developing, I didn't see info in their post history indicating just what it was that they were working on that they were stopping. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I would have thought that if "numerous" devs were ending their Rift development that there would have been more noise about the projects specifically.

EDIT: To offer a counterpoint, I had seen this article that suggests that the ecosystem may not have been so broken by the news: [http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/26/oculus-rift- developer...](http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/03/26/oculus-rift-developers- unphased-by-facebook-buyout)

 _"We are as dedicated as ever. We are certain that Palmer and the Oculus team is sincere; dedicated to doing what 's best for VR in the long-term. We have some concerns, yes, but the news just broke yesterday. We trust that Oculus is motivated by doing what's best for VR community and VR developers," Hrafn Thorri Thorisson, co-founder of Aldin Dynamics told IGN.

NexyMedia founder Alan Robinson is deep in development on Oculus-powered survival game Atajrubah. Robinson told IGN that, if anything, the buyout news has made him even more energized. "I am [now] more determined to stick with my development plans for the Rift… For myself and the other team members survival games are just as much about the interactions between players and the experiences they have in the game world.The news that they want to take the Rift beyond just gaming in the future and focus on changing how people interact with each other, the kinds of experiences they have and even how they're educated can only be good news."

Robinson isn't the only developer that remains highly enthusiastic. Titans of Space developer 'Drash' is equally bullish. "Despite the shocking news of Oculus being acquired by Facebook, I currently feel more motivated than ever to develop VR software. Having just gotten back from GDC and trying the new "DK2" Oculus Rift development kit (not once, but six times), there's nothing in the world that can stop me from being excited for the Oculus Rift and VR technology as a whole," he told IGN.

Other developers have a more pragmatic opinion on how this will impact their ability to work on Rift, but remain optimistic.

"A lot of people in the community have reacted by assuming that all VR games magically turned into FarmVille and Candy Crush overnight, but my Rift dev kit works the same today is it did a week ago. So no, this hasn't affected my day- to-day Rift development. I look at the acquisition as positive reinforcement that VR tech is on the cusp of something amazing," hobbyist Rift developer Holden Link explained to IGN.

We spoke to more than 10 independent Oculus Rift game developers, and only one indicated an intention to put Rift development on hold as a result of the Facebook news.

"We already have a working demo for the Oculus Rift, but this is such a big surprise to us and we're not quite sure what it means yet, so development is currently on hold. We need to know what kind of plans and ideas Facebook has for Oculus before making a final decision," Mediocre co-founder Henrik Johansson, makers of Smash Hit, told IGN._

<comment><USER2> It's refreshingly honest to see someone described as a "mediocre co-founder" rather than "amazing" or "incredible".

(I know, I know...)

<comment><USER24> Very good attempt at evading the HN humour police!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The core worry for me is that, Facebook represents the social gaming, Zynga, pay-to-grow-a-plant kind of gaming that is the antithesis of hardcore gaming which Oculus (especially with Carmack) represents. They are two fundamentally different modes of games and it will be difficult to integrate them into one company.

</comment><comment><USER16> Honestly this all just seems like a bunch on neck beards who dont understand business. I fail to see how this is not a positive for consumers.

<comment><USER13> I see you've been downvoted to oblivion and I'm sorry for that, the short answer is: Facebook sees users as a product and users don't like that.

<comment><USER11> And many of us don't want to be just consumers.</comment></comment></comment>


$718K penalty against M.C. Dean for blocking Wi-Fi devices (2015) - <AUTHOR> http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2015/FCC-15-146A1.html <comment><USER2> This wouldn't be an issue if WiFi APs enabled IEEE 802.11w-2009 protected management frames by default. Most consumer routers have supported this for years, but have it disabled by default.

Android's built-in hotspot functionality still doesn't support this at all, and hotspots are the main thing here being targeted by hotels. If you want to see this fixed in Android, consider starring this issue: [https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=197440](https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=197440)

<comment><USER3> I have not had much success implementing 802.11w. Either the wireless manufacturer or the client device implementation tends to be buggy. My most recent case is between Extreme Network 802.11ac APs and any MacBook Pro.

It's left me scratching my head as to why a protection mechanism such as this isn't mandatory by now. Because mandating aspects of the protocol seems to be the only sure way of easing compatibility woes.

<comment><USER4> I just read somewhere that 802.11w is mandatory for the Wi-Fi Alliance 802.11ac certification. If true, the compatibility should get better.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I have to say that while I am against hotels engaging in this sort of activity, I find the dissenting opinion by Ajit Pai pretty compelling:

>But because of the shared, "commons" model that applies to all unlicensed operations, the Commission has >repeatedly held that "interference caused to a Part 15 device by another Part 15 device does not constitute >harmful interference."

In other words because the spectrum is unlicensed and because the transmissions were conformant with the part 15 spec, any such operation following the spec is allowed. How they can then they find that the Hotel was causing harmful interference is a bit troubling.

Clearly in everyday language we could describe what the hotel were doing as harmful, but the whole point of unlicensed spectrum is that it's a commons free-for-all. When wifi gets degraded to usability at trade shows because everyone's wifi is interfering with each other, nobody calls the FCC and files complaints about harmful interference.

Also it appears the FCC have been previously explicitly asked if deauth broadcasts like this are disallowed, and specifically chose not to make a ruling. It makes me wonder what the heck is going on over there. Has this issue become a political football between different factions over at the FCC?

<comment><USER6> While I'm not a lawyer so I can't speak for how the law looks like, there is a clear difference in intent. The many users wifi interfering with eachother is not by intent, the de-auth packets is nothing but intent to interfere.

<comment><USER7> The legal phrase is harmful interference.

47CFR15.5(b) talks about transmit and receive. People intentionally mis- interpret the receive section as somehow referencing transmission. The transmit side is as follows: "Operation of an intentional ... radiator is subject to the conditions that no harmful interference is caused"

47CFR15.3(m) Harmful interference. Any emission ... that ... seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radiocommunications service operating in accordance with this chapter.

It is true that on the receive side you have no legal protection according to 15.5(b). However transmitting a jamming signal is quite illegal.

Its very strange, like imagine two laws, one says its illegal to shoot at people, the other says you have no legal protection if you stand in front of a bullet. Then everyone exclusively quotes the latter stating its perfectly legal to shoot people, despite the former explicitly prohibiting that specific act.

The FCC doesn't send men in black in vans when people interfere with aircraft navigation for fun or because they're nice guys, although they are, but because they're legally obligated to do so because those parts don't have "too bad so sad" written into the legal code. All the "you're screwed if you're interfered with" in part 15 means is the FCC is not legally obligated to send in the men in black suits and vans solely for part 15 complaint issues. It doesn't mean interference is legal under part 15 rules, in fact the line right next to it explicitly states it is not legal and if by some miracle you're caught you are in big trouble.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is from 2015. Did they pay the fine?

Interesting article from spring 2016 [http://www.networkworld.com/article/3042454/mobile- wireless/...](http://www.networkworld.com/article/3042454/mobile-wireless/wi- fi-hotspot-blocking-persists-despite-fcc-crackdown.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> Are there exceptions to this rule, i.e. legit uses for deauth mechanisms?

> Marriott admitted that the Wi-Fi users it blocked did not pose a security > threat to the Marriott network.

> Similarly, Smart City submitted no evidence that the deauthentication was > done in response to a specifically identified security threat.

It seems to me like it might still be okay to use WiFi deauth to automatically defend your network against security threats, such as foreign APs advertising the same SSID as your network?

<comment><USER10> Imagine if this were allowed. Would you accept it if someone else did the same to you, for instance a hotel guest would deauthenticate your use of your SSID?

Since no one owns the frequencies no one owns the SSIDs and there is no way to specify who is the legitimate user and who is the adversary. The only solution is if any one party just does not interfere in the business of the other.

<comment><USER11> That's easy enough to solve: you are only allowed to defend your SSID if you have taken reasonable steps to minimise the chance of a random name collision, and if this is really the most reasonable answer given your threat model.

For example you can't block all "Netgear WLAN" hotspots, but you can block all "Hotel Sunrise NY Guests" networks. And you can not block SSIDs similar to your private network simply because you are too lazy to specify the routers MAC in all your five devices.

<comment><USER12> > Hotel Sunrise NY Guests

But what if we are "Hotel Sunrise NY Guests"? Why wouldn't i use that name as a guest? I think if you want defensible randomization, you actually randomize it.

<comment><USER13> No. Because these are realistic rules enforced by real and reasonable people.

If you walk into Hotel Sunrise and start walking up to people and saying "I'm with Hotel Sunrise Guest Satisfaction, can I ask you some questions?" the defense "Well, I'm a Hotel Sunrise Guest and it was for my Satisfaction!" is not going to absolve you of any consequences that arise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm glad the FCC is taking this stance, but I'm curious why the hotel can't make "you consent to receive wifi deauth frames" a condition of entry. They let corporations put "you will not sue us" in EULAs, after all.

<comment><USER15> Because it's a criminal offense. The illegal act is _sending_ signals which willfully interfere with communications.

Also, the FCC determined that those clowns were jamming the Wi-Fi of buses passing the convention center.

<comment><USER14> But if the convention-goers "agree" to receive deauth frames as a condition of entry, it's an expected transmission desired by the recipient, so not interference. Of course, if they block people outside the building, there's no justification.

<comment><USER16> You can't have a contract that specifies illegal things. Well, you can, but the government will decline to enforce it.

<comment><USER14> But surely two parties can agree to send deauth frames between each other, for testing, development, etc. What makes this materially different?

<comment><USER17> Sure, you can deauth all you want for testing and development inside your own home or business where you arent bothering anyone. You cant "test" your deauth technology by blocking every single AP in range at a conference center, then extorting hundreds or thousands of dollars to get access to the only authorized networks. If you cant see the difference between the situations, then go read what the FCC letter says again.

edit: Imagine if this convention center entered into an exclusivity agreement with Verizon, then jammed the frequencies used by the other cellular carriers. Would that be OK?

<comment><USER18> Charging for a service that one can reject paying for is by definition NOT extortion.

<comment><USER19> Imagine you meet an entrepreneur who has a gun and proclaimed he'll shoot everyone in sight by default, but that he provides a service in which he can exchange the bullet for the "BANG!" flag for a small fee. It's not extortion - you're free to refuse the service after all.

<comment><USER18> That's not at all the same case, you're being threatened. I'm impressed at the dishonesty on this one.

Imagine you're at a hotel, you can access their WiFi but you have to pay for it. Imagine you're at another hotel, you can use their pool but you have to pay for it. Are you being extorted? No. That's a better example.

<comment><USER19> Yes, but in your example you need to add that I have with me an inflatable pool that magically doesn't spill, and the federal law allows me to use it instead of hotel one - and I get kicked out of the hotel for actually using it (or worse, they make my magic water supply stop supplying water).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've observed this at other trade show facilities. Next time I'll trap logs for the FCC to. Tax dollars at work.

</comment><comment><USER21> "M.C. Dean charged $795 to $1,095 for access to the Wi-Fi it provided"

That's so outrageous.

<comment><USER22> We did a trade show in Minneapolis' convention center a few years back and had the same issue. We were charged ~$1200 for a few days of Wifi access from SmartCity. Even though we paid for them to allow us to use our Wifi AP (Cisco enterprise AP, not some consumer gear bought at BestBuy) we still had to beg and plead with their on-site network engineers to get them to stop issuing de- auths on all our traffic. Then again, you have to pay hundreds of dollars to have a trash can in your booth as well. These venue are such a racket it's ridiculous.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I wonder if there was any action taken against the vendor of this equipment, Xirrus. The FCC clearly identifies that this feature was marketed by Xirrus as a "shoot first and ask questions later" aggressive anti-AP technology. There does not appear to be any legal way to use this feature, so hopefully the FCC at least sent them a warning.

<comment><USER23> Every enterprise wireless vendor has this ability. Further there are definitely legal ways to use this, if not in the US then certainly elsewhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Hmm. What's interesting is MC Dean is an electrical/telecommunications _contractor_. They would be responsible for doing the actual work of installing and maintaining the network equipment, but usually at the behest of someone else. How did they end up with the liability for this? Did they go off the reservation and decide to start blocking WiFi on their own, or did the BCC request for them to do so?

<comment><USER25> Contractors, especially licensed ones are usually liable for their work. So too is Marriot, for asking them in the first place, but they settled:

> Marriott agreed to settle the investigation by paying a civil penalty of > $600,000 and establishing operating procedures to ensure that it does not > engage in further Wi-Fi blocking

Presumably MC Dean did not.

<comment><USER24> Right, I just thought they would usually be liable to the owner, and the owner would be the one legally liable. Now, if the owner got fined because MC Dean screwed something up, they could turn around and sue MC Dean for the amount of the fine. But separately fining both the owner and the contractor for the same infraction seems like double dipping on the part of the government, unless they're being fined in proportion to culpability or something like that.

<comment><USER26> IANAL, but "someone hired me" is not a defense for any crime. Perhaps Marriott could use ignorance as an excuse for hiring a wireless communication firm to break a wireless communication law (under the somewhat silly theory that they are only experts in hotel law), but the wireless communication firm itself certainly can't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I really wish they'd change designing to configuring in the title on this.

</comment><comment><USER28> Does mean that aircrack-ng is now illegal?

<comment><USER14> It is if you use it to maliciously interfere with someone else's network.

<comment><USER18> But in this case the hotel owned the network, so it seems it can be illegal even if you use on your own network, which is absurd.

<comment><USER29> The hotel did not own the networks they were interfering with, that's why the FCC is getting involved.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Would it not be under the authority of a privately owned building to regulate their own Wi-Fi or radio signals?

For example, a movie theatre, airport or hospital could all have good reasons to block radio signals.

<comment><USER31> As I understand it, ownership of a space does not confer ownership of the radio spectrum, even within the confines of the space. They don't have the authority to regulate radio signals at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> This is a weakness in the Wi-Fi stack, I can't see than he have interfered with the signal it self. It is the router and/or the client that have picket up these signals and misinterpreted them (though they were targeted). The rule they mean he have broken: ###"harmful interference" as "[a]ny emission, radiation or induction that endangers the functioning of a radio navigation service or other safety services or seriously degrades, obstructs or repeatedly interrupts a radio communications service operating in accordance with this chapter.###

<comment><USER33> I think this is the exception that swallows the rule.

Let's say I observe two ham radio operators having a morse code communication. I decide to stop them from communicating, so I transmit "<callsign 1> QRT DE <callsign 2>", where callsign 1 and callsign 2 are the callsigns of the two ham radio operators.

Is this harmful interference, or did one of the ham radio operators just misinterpret my signal?

<comment><USER32> I wouldn't trust the "<callsign 1> QRT DE <callsign 2>" if it didn't contain a secret message, that couldn't be produced by a 3. party

<comment><USER34> In Ham radio, you can't use any sort of secret message like that. Everything needs to be plaintext.

<comment> ryan-c I don't think that's correct. Cryptographic authentication of messages should be allowed (ARRL agrees with me[0]), the language specifies you cannot "obscure the meaning" of the communication.

0\. [https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7520928844.pdf](https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/7520928844.pdf)

<comment><USER33> That's correct. There's one exception to the encryption rule, which is when sending commands to a space station. (That does not allow you to encrypt the responses, though.) See 47 CFR 97.211, [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.211](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/97.211)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I don't really understand why you cannot fully be in control over electromagnetic radiation that occurs solely in your own private property? Logically it doesn't make any sense, unless of course there is leakage of that radiation affecting someone else outside of your private property.

Will we soon be banned from using red light bulbs at home, because their wavelength is illegal?

<comment><USER36> Why is electromagnetic spectrum special? A convention center couldn't put poison in their air, couldn't stab people, couldn't libel anyone, couldn't cook meth, and couldn't produce patented pharmaceuticals in their own private property either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Can someone explain the whole wifi deauth thing?

<comment><USER38> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi- Fi_deauthentication_attack#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi- Fi_deauthentication_attack#Attacks_on_hotel_guests_and_convention_attendees)

<comment><USER37> Nobody considered that this might be an avenue for malicious actors? That's insane.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I suggest reading the entire notice. The dissenting commissioners do some serious mental gymnastics to justify their disent.

<comment><USER40> It sounds more like they are saying "Yes, this is bad, but technically not illegal under our laws". Sounds more like they are doing their job rather than being emotional about it.

<comment><USER26> Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this idiom. "Mental gymnastics" can be motivated by emotions, but they don't have to be. It isn't motivation that makes any particular mental activity gymnastic, but rather it is incoherence. The commissioner writes as if [0] doesn't exist, even though he probably had it open in another window on his screen while writing the dissent. Ideology and avarice were probably more salient motivators than emotion.

[0] [https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/15.5#b](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/15.5#b)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Given that the FCC will be basically eliminated this year, I assume this type of activity will increase?

</comment><comment><USER42> From 2015.

<comment><USER43> Does this make it less interesting to you? [edit: didn't it was convention to mark non-current years in titles]

<comment><USER44> That's not the point. The point is the poster should have added [2015] to the title.

<comment><USER43> Ah, I didn't know this convention. Thank you for telling me.</comment></comment></comment></comment>