Ask HN: How can startups using Yodlee afford it? - <AUTHOR>

I wanted to build a new product using the functionality that Yodlee provides (it is used by inDinero, Mint, etc), but using their contact form, I was contacted by a sales agent who says that I would have to sign a 1 year to 3 year contract, pay an upfront fee of $12,500 and pay a user fee between $3 per user to $1 per user, depending on volume.<p>Are there cheaper alternatives? <comment><USER2> You may be able to negotiate a better deal than that. As you grew you could almost certainly negotiate a better deal. You could also scrape the data yourself. Supporting the top 15 financial sites would probably cover 80%+ of your users fully.

If there are not any startup friendly alternatives to Yodlee, then maybe you just found what your startup should really be doing :-)

</comment><comment><USER3> You should look at the Wesabe code that got open sourced. They wrote their own scraper for a huge number of banks. That could solve your problem at the beginning. Although, it also creates a new problem for you, securely storing bank credentials. They open sourced a solution for that too, but I'm sure it'll still create costs for you.

<comment><USER4> I don't think they've released the scraper yet, have they? They said they would, but it wasn't part of the release last I checked.

One idea might be to have a consortium of startups interested in the topic use and maintain Wesabe's scrapers as a community.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is my first time hearing about Yodlee. I went to their site and while I'm not totally dense, it's not immediately clear what their product offering _does_.

In plain English, what is it that these folks do that your system needs so badly? Genuinely curious.

<comment><USER6> Provides a unified API for myriad online banking websites.

Its how Mint is able to get your transaction history.

<comment><AUTHOR> I wouldn't be surprised if Swipely and Blippy use them too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Am I the only person who doesn't think this is expensive _at all_?

If you're creating a banking application and cannot extract enough revenue from a user to mitigate a $3 cost per user for a business-critical vendor, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

<comment><USER4> $3 per user per month is expensive. Looking at the price SaaS offerings, they're generally in the $5-$15 per user per month range, so $3/month is a good chunk of change.

It's even worse for advertising based services, who generally make far less per user per month.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I used to work at Yodlee and do some Yodlee consulting on the side. I can't speak to the license fees, but to the folks that say "build your own", I don't really recommend that.

Not sure what kind of site you are trying to build, but aggregation is a really Long Tail kind of functionality. I've heard countless times from people that "Yodlee supports 15 of my institutions but they don't support my one bank and that makes the aggregated data useless without it." And Yodlee supports thousands of sites. Even if you built custom support for 80% of the sites, the "all or nothing" mentality of a lot of aggregation users means that does not translate to satisfying 80% of the users.

</comment><comment><USER9> Is that per user fee monthly? Regardless, the fee structure seems quite reasonable given the functionality they provide. Besides, everything is negotiable.

</comment><comment><USER10> I've been in touch with Yodlee recently as well. I'm going to call them back today to clarify, but it was my understanding that the fee was per user account not user. Meaning if John Doe signs up and has 3 credit cards and 2 banks, that's 5 user accounts. Hopefully I'm wrong on this.

</comment><comment><USER11> Yes, Yodlee is crazy expensive and doesn't seem willing to negotiate with startups. CashEdge may be a better option. And, as has been noted, you could handle the top 5-50 institutions yourself which would get you very broad coverage.

</comment><comment><USER12> A dollar per user, is that per month?

</comment><comment><USER13> I don't know their pricing structure, but check with <http://www.geezeo.com/> and <http://cashedge.com/> to see if they fit within your budget or not.

Alternatively you can write your own scraper depending on what your requirements are.</comment>


History has become self-documenting - <AUTHOR> https://meaninglessdreams.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/156/ <comment><USER2> Early digitization will be looked back in history as an information dark age. I can't even access a website from 10 years ago, unless the sole archivist, The Internet Archive, has an old copy of it saved.

Digital information doesn't survive long. Compact discs have bit rot. Hard disks and SSDs have limited lifetimes. People only store what matters to them - they aren't concerned with archiving history. Where people have archives lying around, I bet they've not checked them in years and the data is no longer recoverable. Archiving requires maintenance, and is costly. TIA relies on voluntary donations.</comment>


SoCal earthquake a powerful reminder of Twitter's potential - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2008/07/29/socal-earthquake-a-powerful-reminder-of-twitters-potential/

<comment><USER2> I was in a skyscraper in downtown LA. Not fun to see the floor at an angle. Not fun. Twitter was the last thing on my mind.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't get it. Potential for what? Am I the only one that prefers depth and accuracy over haste and inanity?

According the graph one source had information within a few minutes and the AP had information in under 10 minutes. I'm sure anyone in the area knew immediately without Twitter's help.

<comment><USER4> Depth and accuracy? The first AP article isn't going to have anything except "there was an earthquake." Perhaps they will have the Richter number. They will definitely not have the epicenter or the damage/casualties. It may even be less than 140 characters :)

<comment><USER5> The quickest place you'll get the epicenter/magnitude from is USGS:

<http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/>

You can sign up for SMS alerts too:

<https://sslearthquake.usgs.gov/ens/>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> (I live in west LA)

First thing I did: grab the iPhone and run as fast as I can for the door (given the damage done to the structure I live in during the 1994 northridge earthquake, i don't trust it so much)

Second thing I did: Go on twitter.

That almost scares me :)

</comment><comment><USER7> I was woken up by an earthquake in Berkeley last year. I immediately ran to my laptop, and checked the USGS .. it was there (magnitude/epicenter) within seconds of me realizing it. Point being, for most news stories that Twitter could break, there is a specialized source that already has it.

</comment><comment><USER8> If "fuck there was an earthquake" counts as news, then yes, Twitter is a great source.

<comment><USER4> Most major news sources' first release is just that, without the "fuck" and 20 minutes later.

<comment><USER8> That's probably true. I guess definitely a subsection of news that Twitter might be good for if you subscribe to a lot of people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If indeed they ever get an early warning system like they've been promising for years that gives a few minutes warning before large quakes hit, twitter could be valuable. In addition to those great whackin' horns they blow for emergencies.

Otherwise, I don't see much point in twittering "dude, there's an earthquake!" All of the effected people will already know that.

 _SoCal earthquake a powerful reminder of Twitter's potential_. How about a powerful reminder of _nature's_ potential? Tweet.

</comment><comment><USER10> I predict that Twitter is going to face very serious competition. As useful as their service is, it boils down to just being a centralized way to send size- limited messages. An open Twitter could be like the internet, but with restricted packet sizes, and everyone gets to sniff everybody else's traffic.

<comment><USER11> Why doesn't Google just release a Twitter clone and be done with it?

<comment><USER12> Twitter can actually be a good acquisition for Google.

<comment><USER13> Twitter reaches Beta?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Interesting online Q&A about today's earthquake and earthquakes in general:

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/discussion/2008...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/content/discussion/2008/07/29/DI2008072901719.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> My two cents: <http://twitter.com/tipjoy/statuses/871812474>

<comment><USER15> For a while at digg we were touted for the same thing - a new way to disseminate news more quickly than the mainstream media, but there was nothing special that made us better at that than any other vanity-publishing mechanism on the web (I'd guess technorati used the same type of marketing line before us).

I'd say the same thing about twitter - it's only as good as it's own network effect, there's nothing innovative that makes it better for this purpose than any other service, and a lot of people are already leaving for other ego broadcasting systems.

I think the service provided by the USGS should get most of the credit (and its a reasonable bet that the technology is more interesting and a lot of people worked a lot harder on it than on twitter). The article touts the "epicenter maps" that people sent him. Twitter didn't produce those - and a bunch of people pointing the author to them doesn't make them twitter-produced news.

We weren't as quick to use it as marketing fodder as twitter though, that's for sure:

<http://blog.twitter.com/2008/07/twitter-as-news-wire.html>

I find that kind of obnoxious. Not as obnoxious as if people had died, but still obnoxious.

<comment><USER14> The bigger digg gets, the less likely it is that news will immediately hit the front page. The bigger twitter gets, the more likely it is that twitter will be the first to report on breaking news. Plus the speed of that spread will increase.

Think of it like 6-degrees of kevin bacon. With more people, the degrees to hear about the news decreases. As news sites get built on top of twitter to find these breaking stories, we might all be one or two degrees from the original source. That is astoundingly fast and connected.

Of course the USGS is going to be the fastest - they have a computer hooked up to a seismometer.

<comment><USER15> Except that the bigger twitter gets the more noise there is, and the more value there is in gaming it. For example, there's nothing to stop me from twittering "earthquake in Canada" right now - you might unfollow me after finding out it's not true, but others might echo it on down the chain.

Even more plausibly, I could have twittered that I was in a plane at LAX after I saw the first twitter messages, even though I'm 3k miles away. How would you know? I could probably give a vivid description of being in a just-landed plane in the midst of an earthquake.

An example is that a journalist interviewed a woman who twittered that her OB- GYN was in her vagina when the earthquake happened - it's a nice vivid detail, but how do we know it's actually true?

<comment><USER15> Case in point: [http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2008/08/01/how-janet- fool...](http://www.web-strategist.com/blog/2008/08/01/how-janet-fooled-the- twittersphere-shes-the-voice-of-exxon-mobil/)

(Random twitterer pretends to be official spokesperson for Exxon)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


rejected! - <AUTHOR>

<comment><AUTHOR> We're sorry to say we couldn't accept your proposal for funding. Please don't take it personally, because most of the proposals we rejected, we rejected for reasons having nothing to do with the quality of the applicants. For example, we were very reluctant to accept proposals with only one founder, because we think starting a startup is too much work for one person. We also had a higher threshold for applicants who were still in school, groups where one or more members planned to keep their current jobs, and groups that couldn't all move to Boston. We rejected a lot of proposals simply because we couldn't understand them, or didn't understand the problem domain well enough to judge them, or because the project seemed too big to start on only three months of funding. Sometimes we even rejected good ideas, because another group proposed the same idea and seemed further along.

We realize this process is fraught with error. It's practically certain that groups we rejected will go on to create successful startups. If you do, we'd appreciate it if you'd send us an email telling us about it; we want to learn from our mistakes.

Thanks,

Y Combinator Staff

<comment><AUTHOR> as of today I'm out to prove them wrong. wish me luck and good luck to those who have been accepted

<comment><USER2> I'm sure, it's frustrating if you don't know real reason why they rejected you so I wish you good luck, As we say, "what don't kill you that gives you more power".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Rejected here too. I'm not surprised; it was a long shot to begin with, and I don't think my goals as a founder and their goals as investors really lined up. It probably didn't help that I'm a sole founder, either.

Time for Plan B. Powerball tickets. Er, I mean, the slowly growing micro-ISV approach.

<comment><USER4> No need to grow slow... unless slow growth is what you want. $6k is not the difference between high growth and slow growth.

<comment><USER3> Well, slow growth while I work at my day job.

$10-$15K is the difference between being able to quit my day job and get the company going in 3 months and having to keep my day job and get the company going in 9 months to a year.

And if I need to keep the day job, slow sustainable growth -- meaning I can project income, and project reasonably accurately when I can quit my day job -- is much better than a spike that I need to deal with in crisis mode.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm wondering if I should email them about the webby award i won today for the site they rejected ;)

neurokinetikz.com

<http://webbyawards.com/webbys/current_honorees.php?category_id=48>

<comment><USER4> I went to that site and saw a blog with a animated matrix background. I didn't get it.

I know it sucks to be rejected (went thru it recently myself) but don't fall into the trap of sour grapes.

Find out what you can do better, or improve on.

And I think this is probably a good forum for doing that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> C'me.... with the age of EC2 and S3, there are no reason you cannot bootstrap the whole thing yourself?

And there are tons of other ways to make money, if you are smart enough to build a startup.

Surely is nice to have somebody written you a $10,000 check to start of with... but believe me, you will never forget the moment you received the first payment from the credit card gateway company.

It is better if you can grow your business with your own money, if you have a choice.

</comment><comment><USER7> Rejected too and we know reason why we were rejected :) So no hard feelings as i had posted before its YC or we go alone.

<comment><USER8> why did you get rejected?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Me too, twice :). I can't wait to see who got funded. Maybe they want to show us their apps?</comment>


Ask HN: What are your web app ideas? - <AUTHOR>

Hey guys,
I'm looking for ideas for a web app, that you want to build, but just don't have the time for. At this point in my life I am of the belief that ideas themselves are worth very little, and having somebody else interested in working on it with you may either spur you to work on it yourself, or at least get your idea manifest into the real world.
So, if you have a great idea that you don't mind getting stolen, post it here!
I'll go first: I think it would be neat to build an easy-to-use web calculator, so high school kids could do their math homework without having to buy expensive calculators. I am actually considering this: it's not too hard to write a graphing interface in Calculus, or write tools to do things like Linear algebra, derivatives, calculate integrals... anything more advanced justifies using a university Mathematica license or something :)
What do you think of my idea? What are yours?
Zack <comment><USER2> Not precisely a web app per se, but a product I'd really like to see someone produce. It seems to me that the BBC's iPlayer sets the standard for TV stations broadcasting their content over the internet. They have flash streaming at reasonable quality, plus various species of download for different platforms including portable devices, and they don't discriminate a huge amount by operating system.

What I think would be wonderful would be if someone would produce a similar system packaged up and ready to be installed at any TV station. Just add a few racks of machines for encoding. Hell, if you were going for real shiny-shiny, you might even do the encoding "in the cloud" on EC2 or somesuch.

I'm not entirely sure how much money you could make doing this, but its certainly an idea.

</comment><comment><USER3> You may find <http://www.sagemath.org/> helpful for your project, if you haven't seen it already ^_^

</comment><comment><USER4> <http://startupskunkworks.blogspot.com/>

I'd be happy to discuss anything.</comment>


'Scary' reasons why LinkedIn sold to Microsoft - <AUTHOR> http://www.recode.net/2016/6/13/11920416/linkedin-acquisition-microsoft-reasons <comment><USER2> LNKD stock was volatile which meant that share price crashes were great opportunities to invest if you believed in the long-term dominance of the company. I "loaded the boat" when it fell to $100/share. There's little doubt in my mind it would have made it back to $196/share (which was about my estimate for fair value) with or without MSFT, although it got there much faster this way. Curiously the stock is trading about 3% below the all-cash offer price so I guess that Wall Street believes there's a small but non-zero chance the deal doesn't happen.

</comment><comment><USER3> To save you a click, here are the three reasons:

LinkedIn's stock was struggling.

LinkedIn's ad business was slowing down.

LinkedIn's growth was a concern.

</comment><comment><USER4> Linked in to me seems like myspace. It seems to be full of spam. Its interface seems be still from the mid 2000s. I guess there was no facebook competitor like there was to myspace so they seem to have won.

<comment><USER5> I had to download the LinkedIn newsfeed blocker it was getting so horrible. Like 90s grandma chain emails horrible. And I work in energy finance / investment banking / hedge funds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> For whom are these reasons "scary"?

<comment><USER7> Microsoft shareholders

<comment><USER8> I doubt if they are scared. MSFT had $105B cash and short-term investments at the end of March. Worst case they'll just lose a quarter of their piggy bank.

<comment><USER7> 1) It's totally, completely ludicrous to suggest that billions of dollars are a small amount of money to any existing company. Billions are peanuts to only a handful of governments in the world.

2) I'm a MSFT shareholder, and I'm scared. I'm not at all scared that the company will fail. I'm scared that my stock will be worth a lot less, and I won't be able to liquidate it without losing a bunch of my money.

3) The "piggy bank" is the shareholder value. That's where we get our dividends, and stocks have no value without dividends.

4) It doesn't matter what the effect of the purchase is on Microsoft, at least not to a shareholder. The market decides what the stock is worth, and the market thinks short-term and irrationally.

<comment><USER8> Even if the investment is completely written off, that is just 7% of the mkt cap. It's not going to kill Microsoft. I think you should be more worried about the woman who just won a judgement of $10k for being forced to upgrade to win 10.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > _since LinkedIn may now be able to sell ads alongside Microsoft Office's > suite of products that reach a lot more people than LinkedIn's current user > base._

And OpenOffice rejoiced.

</comment><comment><USER10> In what ways are those reasons "scary", and to whom are they scary?

Seems link LinkedIn got a good offer, and did not sell out of fear.

<comment><USER11> It's like trying to sell your house in 2009.

You know it used to be worth a lot more, and may be again someday, but it's uncertain. You suddenly get an offer that's higher than the current market, so you take it since you have no real confidence the market will be back to its former levels in the next decade. Yes it's a good offer for the moment, but there's still an element of fear/uncertainty driving the decision.

It's also potentially scary to Microsoft since they may have paid a price that's well above anything the market will ever see again.</comment></comment>


Space Engine - <AUTHOR> http://en.spaceengine.org/ <comment><USER2> I don't understand the attitude about donations. The developer wrote an awe- inspiring work of art and has been giving it away without demand for years. He asks for donations with clear set goals of what they go toward for improving the software. Take it or leave it.

Yes, an open-source version would be valuable and I invite anyone here to start one.

<comment><USER3> It's fine to spend $5 on a cup of coffee, but "information wants to be free" even if it's the product of years and years of grueling work.

This petulant entitled mentality is vile, especially when it's directed at a free labor of love like this. If people don't like it they shouldn't use it, and nobody is making anyone donate anything.

Edit: the thing I'm really responding to here is the holier-than-thou ideology you see around this topic from time to time, and the negativity directed at this and other developers for daring to suggest that their work might be worthy of some form of compensation. It's total nonsense. It's not about some high-minded "community ideal." People are just being greedy and cheap.

How and under what terms someone releases their work is their choice, not yours. The only choice you have is whether or not to partake.

<comment><USER4> > How and under what terms someone releases their work is their choice, not > yours. The only choice you have is whether or not to partake.

And all people are saying is that they won't partake or support if it's not licensed to their satisfaction. There are no license fascists going around breaking windows to make people conform.

<comment><USER3> They do it verbally.

I'm the author of a number of open source projects, and some of the messages I've received are just insane.

The latest thing is... get a load of this... it's now no longer good enough to give your code and your service away for free. Nope. It has to be free and _permissively licensed_ , so that anyone who wants to take it closed and put _their name_ and a price tag on it can do so without compensating you in any way whatsoever. Anything less and you're not serving "the community."

I have to ask what kind of community this is. OSS was envisioned as the basis of an information gift economy, not a bunch of "takers." Nowadays the takers are increasingly corporations, not even individuals.

That's why my larger non-trivial OSS projects are and will likely remain GPL or similar. I do sometimes release trivial stuff under public domain or nearly-so licenses, but things that take years of work? Sorry, but you have to give something back. At the very least you have to acknowledge its authorship if you use it.

Luckily these attitudes are far from the majority, but I still think it's worthwhile to call out obnoxious trash for what it is. I've come to the same opinion with regard to piracy, especially industrial-scale piracy. The thing that really bothers me is when people actually get holier-than-thou about it. I have more respect for you if you just say "look, I'm a cheap greedy jerk and I want free stuff." At least you're admitting it. But please do not try to act like your wanting free stuff is some kind of grandiose liberal social statement that's helping make the world a better place, because it's not. At worst you are helping to devalue labor and destroy peoples' livelihoods. At the _very best_ you are accomplishing nothing.

The last thing I want the author of something as beautiful as Space Engine to see is to visit the HN thread about their project and see a bunch of whiny takers berating them about how they're not allowed to take take take on terms that please them sufficiently.

<comment><USER4> > They do it verbally.

That's exactly what I said. You're free to ignore them if you think that's best for your project because _you 're_ the one in charge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> YES! Everyone should try this. Sometimes I can get lost in it for hours, just floating around the galaxies...

It's so cool that everything you see, every little star in each Galaxy you can zoom into and check out. Check the simulated atmosphere of every planet, check the rough surfaces of every little asteroid. All procedurally generated and very mind blowing.

</comment><comment><USER6> It's not in their poll for new features, but VR support would make this so much more interesting.

<comment><USER7> Rift support was added in version 0.9.7.2 ( [http://en.spaceengine.org/forum/20-2614-1](http://en.spaceengine.org/forum/20-2614-1) ).

<comment><USER6> Good to know... I think that should be listed on the homepage. I looked for VR and Rift, didn't see any mention.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> License it under the GPL, upload code and all build files (including WIP files for the Linux version) to Github, and I'll donate.

<comment><USER9> Agreed. It irks me when proprietary software developers ask for donations for a 'free as in beer' work. Either offer your product as a paid service/item, or make it open source and free as in speech software. The middle ground is just annoying.

<comment><USER10> Then don't donate. It's their project, their time and effort, their choice.

<comment><USER11> It is. However:

(1) People who make things (of any kind) publicly available are often not clear on how the public perceives them. It can be helpful to let them know.

(2) This fellow has obviously put a lot of work into the program. But there are limits on how far development by one person, in their spare time, is likely to go. There are two reasonably sustainable development models: establish a clear funding stream by charging for the product, or release the source code and do open development. This fellow is doing neither. If people admire this work, and want it to continue to be developed, then they have an incentive to encourage the original developer to switch to a more sustainable model.

and ...

(3) Is there anything wrong with offering a trade? "I'd like it if you did X. If you do, then I'll give you money."

<comment><USER12> I agree with everything you said. But this isn't what's happening in this thread. In this thread, a random, semi-anonymous person saw that someone was offering their work for free and asking for donations, and planted their feet firmly in the ground and let everyone know that they refuse to donate unless the code is licensed in exactly the way they like.

<comment><USER8> When you say I'm semi-anonymous, I assume you didn't bother to even click on the profile link. There you'll find more than enough to send me a pizza, if you are so inclined. I do not hide and I am very public about my opinions.

In fact, I think this project, being closed, is a disservice to the craft of software creation. It's great work and, yet, all we can see is its results rendered on a screen. It's also limited to a single operating system and CPU architecture. Opening it up would enrich other groups and allow it to be enriched by them.

I place no unreasonable condition on my donation. In fact, it's my donation and no legally allowed condition should be deemed unreasonable.

<comment><USER11> > There you'll find more than enough to send me a pizza, if you are so > inclined.

TIL that Dominos delivers in Brazil.

Question: How common is it? I.e., do huge numbers of people in Brazil order delivery pizzas, or is it more of a niche thing?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> How does this compare to Celestia?

<comment><USER14> Its graphically more intensive, with larger volume of data. You can also explore the yet unseen parts of the universe which are procedurally generated and imo more detailed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Are there plans for either an OS X or Linux version?

<comment><USER16> I got really excited about this until I saw it only runs on something called "Windows".

<comment><USER17> What you said was sarcastic, but you make a serious point.

I absolutely refuse to expose myself on the internet to virus and other malicious digital attacks, that I do not have to be exposed to. Dropping windows entirely was one of the single best steps I took in minimizing that attack surface.

I do not have resources to dedicate to having yet another untrusted machine with expensive software for the sake of one "free" piece of software that amounts to little more than a game (even though I really like games).

<comment><USER18> Luckily it (appears to) runs on linux.

<comment><USER17> Since it is not open source how do I know it doesn't contain a virus? It would not be the first time such has happened.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Id imagine no Linux support and not being open source would put many people off from donating, myself included.

</comment><comment><USER20> Looks like it supports mods/addons. Would like a mod that adds Star Wars planets. Maybe other fictional planets like the Game of Thrones planet.</comment>


Westerners burn as many calories as hunter-gatherers - <AUTHOR> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0040503 <comment><USER3> This is evidence that our obesity problem isn't due to lack of exercise - <USER2> just eat way too many calories.</comment>


pls review my website, mixing Football + Twitter + gaming. - <AUTHOR> http://www.foottweet.com

<comment><AUTHOR> I tried to add a layer of gaming to the otherwise quite boring visualization of tweets "falling" about a particular topic.

In this case, the prototype is about football. Parsing about 100k tweets per hour during live matches.

Example of a "live match" page : [http://www.foottweet.com/en/game/semi- finals-uruguay-vs-neth...](http://www.foottweet.com/en/game/semi-finals- uruguay-vs-netherlands)

Example of a player page : <http://www.foottweet.com/en/player/ssschwarz>

Any ideas and constructive criticism on how to improve this most welcome, thanks !

</comment><comment><USER2> There is A LOT of stuff going on that page. I find it too busy and distracting.

Also, the first tweets there are about justin beiber, so I'm not sure of how well you're picking out just football related tweets.</comment>


Open Source Guest Book in php  - <AUTHOR> http://thelivingpearl.com/2013/07/15/the-guest-book-problem/

<comment><USER2>
        //let's check if the guest is already in our system
        $check = "SELECT * FROM guests WHERE
        `first_name` = '$_POST[first_name]'
        AND `last_name` = '$_POST[last_name]'
        AND `email` = '$_POST[email]' " ;

I'm not much of a PHP person, but doesn't this imply you're taking user- supplied POST data and are putting it directly into your SQL? If so, that won't end well.

Regarding the actual concept, I saw a place which used an iPad as the signin system for visitor badges, complete with a way to sign your name for NDA purposes if you're there for an interview. It seems sound, assuming you can keep people from messing it up with the home button.

That said, I think they had an app, not a web page.

<comment><AUTHOR> 2 things.

1.You are correct about the potential for a SQL injection. User input should be checked before entered into a SQL statement. However, for learning purposes it was skipped.

2\. There are free apps that wee allow you to take a web page and turn it into a kiosk app. Specifically in iOS6 you can block the home button and limit browsing to what ever website you want. The whole point is for low budget company who doe not want to invest the time or the money into an iOS or Android app.</comment></comment>


Children, Unhappiness and Family Finances: Evidence from One Million Europeans - <AUTHOR> https://www.nber.org/papers/w25597?sy=597 <comment><USER2> Some more info: [https://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/children-h...](https://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/children- happiness-research/)</comment>


Ask HN: Would you choose C++ over Python/Ruby with Hadoop? - <AUTHOR>

Met this guy the other day, who wants me to set up a Hadoop cluster for him - he's got this mobile app that uses crowdsourcing to build, maintain and distribute information on spam callers and text senders.
In the course of the discussion, turned out that he was heavily against me using Python/Ruby(stuff I normally work with) to write code. He believes C++ is..faster.
Of course, that is true. But I still have my doubts. I don't want benchmarks. I'd rather have experiences. What do you think? <comment><USER2> Having done consulting work before, my advice to you is do what the person paying the bill wants.

Personally, I'm okay sacrificing speed, (for what I do, it really doesn't matter) for a language I'm more familiar with and find it easier to write in. So, I, like you, would prefer python. And when it comes to Hadoop, as well as many other areas that university research labs focus on, they usually use python too, so there's a lot of libraries you can easily grab and work with, if need be. Also, it's easier to hand off python code to someone that doesn't know python than it is to hand off C++ to someone that doesn't know C++/Java.

However, in the real world, the customer is always right, even when they are wrong. Do what they ask, no more and no less. If they ask for a recommendation, give it. When they ignore it, don't push...just decide whether or not you want to work under the conditions / terms. It's sad, but people hire experts and ignore their opinions all the time.

Just don't take the job and try to change the terms later. That always turns out terrible.

Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd agree with you, as it goes.

* It's sad, but people hire experts and ignore their opinions all the time.*

True, that. I don't really think I'm going to take up this project. I mean, it's all about playing to one's strengths - that is definitely missing here.

Thanks a ton! Appreciate it.</comment></comment>


Why the idea of a Netflix for e-books makes sense - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/2011/09/12/why-the-idea-of-a-netflix-for-e-books-makes-sense/

<comment><USER2> Saying look how it worked for netflix and blockbuster misses the key point that my library is free. Netflix won because it is much cheaper than blockbuster. Any book subscription service is going to have to put up with a competitor who is free.

The only way I could really see it working out is if they have a very impressive selection of books, enough to beat the library on selection. For me at least it would have to surpass Safari and be much cheaper.</comment>


10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse - <AUTHOR> http://10gui.com/ <comment><USER2> Having a non-focused, non-active window arbitrarily take up 1/3 of my viewable monitor at all times would drive me nuts.

It also makes no sense to me to go to the trouble of allowing a user to use all ten fingers, and then restricting application interaction to only two or three fingers. I work in rich, deep applications with tons of controls and buttons, if I'm going to go to the trouble of learning to use ten fingers to navigate a computer, you better allow me to make use of all of them withing the individual programs that I'm using.

<comment><USER3> I think you're onto something. OS interaction/application switching should be simple, and the individual app interaction should be more complex. I think 4 app selection modes are almost too much. 3 is perfect.

Prediction: I suspect that Apple is taking Exposé in exactly this direction.

<comment><USER2> The real logical gap in the thinking here is that they are focusing on replacing the _mouse_ but in reality, they are in fact replacing functions that can be executed simply and quickly with a _keyboard_. Application switching etc can be done efficiently with a keyboard. At the very least I question the wisdom of moving away from the modifier key paradigm because it is an elegant and easy method of interaction.

I also believe that as we engage more and more of the body in a control interface, for it to be natural it is going to need to mimic real-world interaction so that we can rely on our lifetime of experience interacting with physical objects.

The better solution in my opinion would contain:

-2 mirrored screens so that the one under your hands can be glanced at for reference as well.

-A UI approach that allows you to interact with objects and windows in the same ways you would with real objects. (Grabbing the edges moves the window, pushing down on it 'sticks' it in place, etc.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Talk about multi-touch reminds me of a friend's perennial complaint, "The future of interfaces seems designed to screw me over."

He has a congenital deformity of the arms, but he can type (and is one of those clacky-IBM keyboard fetishists). With his feet, he can use mice and controllers. But multi-touch systems are beyond his ability - while he can pivot and shift to type remarkably quickly, he can't get more than one hand on something at the same time. Worse, each hand is effectively only one digit for him.

And then, there are the folks who don't even have his degree of dexterity.

I can't help thinking that it might be a good thing for general interface designers to consider the implications of disabilities for users of these designs, instead of shrugging that off onto providers of interfaces specifically for the disabled.

<comment><USER5> Without disagreeing, I also don't think it makes sense to discount potentially massive improvements in user interfaces merely because a portion of the population cannot use them.

<comment><USER6> No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone.

It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they _require_ mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.

<comment><USER7> In my experience, OSX has _much_ better thought-out keyboard shortcuts than Windows does. A simple example: you'd like to force-kill the focused application. In OSX, you type command-option-esc (one hand), return, return (other hand). I don't know what it is in Vita, but in XP, it would require quite a bit of mousework.

<comment><USER8> Did you (all of you not just andreyf) seriously manage to degrade the discussion on the GUI into a OSX vs. Windows debate? Or perhaps my expectations are just way too high..

<comment><USER9> Straw, camel back... sorry

Keep expectations high and the community will self-correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Phenomenal video.

The ideas are definitely interesting, but I am amazed at the clarity of the presentation.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for posting, it looks quite interesting. The interface is something that I can imagine myself getting adjusted to (for example, I am a big Opera user and use gestures all the time - once you get used to them they are phenomenal).

I had a similar idea a while ago and might try to implement it this summer as a side project using Johnny Wii's tricks perhaps + Windows 7 (not sure how much of the interface I can pull off). I would be curious to see in particular how tired I am (i.e. my hands) after using such an interface for a while.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> What I find most compelling about this design is that it would support existing applications. This is a proposal for a new Window Manager, not a ground-up rewrite. Looking at the local context commands, it seems like traditional top-level menus could be automatically converted to something left-hand friendly.

</comment><comment><USER12> It seems pretty obvious to me that the most efficient and intuitive way to manage windows is just a boring list at the bottom/side of the screen, but I do hold out hope, like everyone else, that it turns out to be some flashy zooming 3D multitouch thing.

It is refreshing though, to see research that dispenses with the legacy of GUI convention we've built up over the years, instead of just piling on new features.

</comment><comment><USER13> While we're rethinking the human interface, could we please stop staggering typing keys and put frequently used keys like carriage return and backspace under strong fingers? [1]

I was disappointed to see at the end of the 10gui video a concept keyboard with staggered keys and with backspace way over in the corner. If we can't move keyboards past the constraints imposed by mechanical typewriters, what hope do we have at changing the mouse paradigm?

[1] Typematrix is the only keyboard maker I know of that currently does this while still building a relatively standard keyboard (and something that could be integrated into a laptop).

<comment><USER14> Colemak layout turns your caps lock into a backspace.

This works surprisingly well, but I really wish the spacebar was split in half. And I've always felt shift+spacebar should = backspace.

<comment><USER15> I use a keyboard with Control where Caps Lock would be on most keyboards (a sun unix keyboard). That combined with the fact that Control-H is backspace in a standard unix environment means I don't have to reach for the backspace key.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Emacs is a 10 finger multi-touch UI. And it works very well.

<comment><USER3> Multi-touch is right. A roommate once told me about a guy he knew who rigged up foot-pedal modifier keys to increase his Emacs productivity. And this was in the PS2 heyday! (No flames. I was an avid Emacs user in College & grad school.)

<comment><USER16> Foot pedals are indeed an excellent idea. There don't seem to be any available on the market that are programmable under non-Windows-XP, however, and I have not had the chance to build my own yet.

<comment><USER17> I believe the kinesis keyboards have an (optional) foot pedal.

<comment><USER16> I am not too excited by their keyboards, unfortunately. They do sell separate USB foot pedals, but they act as the mouse buttons until you reprogram them on a Windows computer.

I don't know anyone that uses Windows.

<comment><USER3> Get hold of a Win2K disk image and put it in VirtualBox. (No details given, but you should be able to get one, plus install key for, _ahem_ , cheap.) You can connect the virtual image to the USB device. You might need one of the service packs to get USB to work, however.

<comment><USER18> I don't know what that is, but you could use a MIDI pedal and hook it up with some controller software!

<comment><USER17> Actually, thats not a bad idea.

I once wrote a python program to trigger callback functions when specific keys on my MIDI keyboard are pressed. The MIDI protocol was surprisingly simple to figure out (for simple things like "button-x was pressed at 25% pressure" anyway). It had a learning mode where you assign a key by pressing it and an action mode where pressing the assigned keys would trigger functions to be called.

I had intended to use it as a shortcut panel to run a shell scripts, but never actually finished it.. might do so sometime soon :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> That's cool as far as it goes. But what about the keyboard?

The mouse is just one aspect of the computer interaction. I can't remove my keyboard from my desk just to make room for this mouse replacement. The keyboard seems a big barrier (literally!) for getting this device on the desktop.

<comment><USER6> Indeed, double Indeed, what about the keyboard?

Funny how much of the video seems act as if the mouse was the _ONLY_ way that users actually input information into computers in the last twenty years. But even the newest user is going to be using the keyboard and the more experienced a user gets, the more they use the keyboard. And even more, as computers become _a normal part of human society_ , interfaces _pandering to novices_ will become less important, not more important. The question will change, is changing now, from "how do I use this thing?" to "How can I be more productive with this thing"?

Conside that MOST of the data that users input is going to be text, which a form of _discreet_ digital data. A mouse or manipulative multitouch interface, no matter how well designed, is useless for this because it inherently produces analog input which is then translated to a digit action - dragging a file to the trash versus just pressing the delete key.

Photo editing or moving windows are exceptional cases but UI designers are constantly developing clever ways to do them specifically because they allow all sorts of kinesthetic analogs. Yet none of this solves the problem that this isn't the interface a user wants to do most their tasks.

<comment><USER3> I would like a keyboard like the small Apple aluminum one, but with a multi- touch pad on the side. Also make the pad a small display like the iPhone. Have it switch modes depending on the Application. It would still be great for application switching and contextual menu selection as in the 10Gui video. One could also have a 10-key mode. Widgets could also appear there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This basically already exist(ed): <http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html>

Apple bought them up and stopped making their products (but we got multitouch on the iPhone, an interesting trade-off).

<comment><USER21> I had interned with Fingerworks prior to the formal release of the project. The main problem I heard about was the demand cost/issues.

Outside of the proposed UI changes, Fingerworks product did all of this. I still wish I had bought one when I had the chance.

Anyway, if they are serious about getting these made, I believe University of Delaware owns a fair amount of Wayne Westerman's patents, as the basic idea was the premise for his doctorate. He was a professor starting in '99, so that should make them easier to locate.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> There's a similar device I read about with a hardware prototype that actually works. It doesn't have the software support of 10gui but it's basically a resistive touchscreen mapped to keypress macros (copy/paste, app switching, etc).

Here's some pictures:

[http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauric/sets/72157616093748066/w...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauric/sets/72157616093748066/with/3488471659/)

<comment><USER22> Is that the same device? It doesn't look anything like the prototype design in the video.

I also don't see any correlation between Pauric on Flickr and C. Miller of 10/GUI, at least not by exploring Pauric's Flickr profile or Twitter account.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that those images are of 10/GUI's device? How did you find them?

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right. It isn't the exact same device. I ran across it while doing more research on 10gui and mistakenly thought it was by the same person. I updated my post.

Sorry about that.

<comment><USER22> Okay no problem. I thought that something was funny as I looked through those Flickr photos. ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm looking forward to use a multitouch touchpad with my desktop keyboard just as I currently do with my laptop. However I will definitely want to keep a mouse also when in need for more precision for tasks like photo editing etc.

10gui seems to be a very cool prototype and I guess that Apple and Microsoft are already working on things like this. I also spotted a weakness of this demo: 10gui uses the little finger to invoke contextual menus. Most of the people who cannot touch type with all ten fingers (and my guess this is about the 99% of all computer users :) will find this uncomfortable.

<comment><USER22> I agree. A ten finger system is going to appeal greatly to those of us who already touch type and are used to using multiple fingers. But I suspect that many people aren't going to be too happy with the coordination required to use such a system.

But I may be wrong. Perhaps when it comes down to it the interface will feel so intuitive that there will be no problems at all. We'll have to wait and see.

<comment><USER24> That was one of the biggest things I worry about - the learning curve of all the gestures. A mouse and keyboard are quite straightforward in terms of how the operate. A 10GUI interface would require a significant amount of training and practice. At which point maybe yes - it will become completely natural.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'd like to see it with the pad acting as the keyboard, too. though, that's more software implementation, while the video is talking hardware interface.

Although, the problem with that kind of implementation is that it doesn't have the tactile feel of a keyboard. however, iPhone users seem to have acclimated after first bitching about it.

<comment><USER22> I personally think that a real physical keyboard will always be preferred. 10Gui is doing the right thing by putting the keyboard above the multi-touch pad.

<comment><USER21> <http://www.fingerworks.com/faq.html>

Apparently people could get up to 70 wpm with what could be considered the prior version of this.

For what it is worth, at least when I was involved with it, most people found a keyboard a lot easier to use for rapid typing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> They've certainly put lots of thought into the design of this device/software. But the whole time I kept thinking: "what about the keyboard?" (Eventually, at the end, they showed the device in a traditional trackpad position below a keyboard.)

I wish they had considered a way to make the keyboard a part of the device. Perhaps an on-screen keyboard, some haptics? The challenge with that part of the input device is that to touch type, you need that spacial reference a keyboard gives you.

</comment><comment><USER27> I wonder if they could combine the keyboard with the touch surface. Not by having the surface be the keyboard, but by overlaying a traditional keyboard with touch sensitive key-sized tiles that together make a touch-sensitive area. Keys should still be pressable, but when you treat it like a touch surface it should behave so. If the gaps between keys are snall enough it should work for fingers. (not styluses though)

</comment><comment><USER28> The video mentions the problem of always having one's hands in the way with a direct interface. This could also be alleviated by moving the hands underneath the display ala the capacitive mouse from Microsoft Research: [http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/10/video- microsoft...](http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/10/video-microsoft- research-demoes-five-multitouch-mice.ars)

</comment><comment><USER14> As for a keyboard, why not have the virtual buttons relative to where the the fingers are placed?

As in, place all eight fingers onto the pad and this automatically becomes home row. Simply strike above and below home row. Depending on the finger you moved, it'll know the key you're striking. I rarely have more than one finger off home row, per hand, when typing.

You heard it here first.

<comment><USER29> was thinking the same thing. i think i've something similar before, and something tells me it may not be practical.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Interesting, would be cool to see worked up with one of thse <http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/22358/>

(I saw Ken Perlin of the nyu media lab give a presentation on that earlier in the year and it was incredible, high resolution and cheap to make)

</comment><comment><USER31> Scrolling alone already had decreased a lot of tension in my arms. 10/GUI would probably have great effect on RSI reduction.

It is amazing how intuitive touch can be. I just love the multi-touch on the touchpad that Ubuntu for example supports. I never knew my old Thinkpad T43 would be able to do it but it does.

</comment><comment><USER32> Like this example of bold but concrete thinking on a future computing metaphor.

Two of the concepts seem very heavily Palm Pre-inspired: The window management scheme (reminiscent of 'cards') and the gesture areas on each side, one of which is used to launch apps just like the Pre

</comment><comment><USER33> I'd rather have more modifier keys and mouse buttons or modifier mouse buttons. Instead of pinching with fingers, you could move the mouse while holding another mouse button. For three or more finger gestures, you could hold down another mouse button.

</comment><comment><USER34> I'm not quite convinced that multi-touch panel that large would be practical, but smaller, one hand version could be nice. Imho it would also be better if the panel was on the side of a keyboard(ie in the place of numpad and arrow keys), not under.

</comment><comment><USER35> "Who would build something like this?

Just as in the early days of the mouse and windowed GUI, a system based upon 10/GUI's principles would likely be best suited to a systems builder capable of full vertical integration."

I wonder who they're thinking of.

</comment><comment><USER36> It certainly looks cool. I am just not sure about the ergonomics. What would really be awesome is not having to lift my hand at all by switching between touch mode and keyboard mode at a flick of a finger.

</comment><comment><USER37> I wonder if they could with a tap bring up an virtual keyboard on the touchpad were the fingers already are and do away with a keyboard altogether. This sort of harkens back to the chord keyset.

</comment><comment><USER38> A ten finger multitouch pad for desktops makes perfectly sense. The multitouch pad on mac book pro is way more pleasant to use than a mouse, but can't be used with an external monitor.

<comment><USER39> It isn't more pleasant to use than a mouse.

If I have to scrape two surfaces together constantly to use a computer, I'd rather one of them wasn't the most sensitive part of my finger.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Multitouch innovators should take heed. A lot of the NUIGroup community is centered around hardware innovations, which is cool and all, but we need more and more software!

</comment><comment><USER41> Anyone happen to know what software likely produced that video?

</comment><comment><USER42> Not sure they should've let Patrick Bateman narrate the video.

"This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite."

</comment><comment><USER43> Seems interesting, but why not use a fully dynamic window manager instead of the side to side thing?

</comment><comment><USER44> Pretty cool. I could see my productivity increase from something like that.

</comment><comment><USER45> tl;dw

30 seconds in and they haven't shown it yet?

<comment><USER46> It's worse than that. The first time they say anything about their interface is at about 2:00. That's extremely vague (it's a multitouch sensor! where your mouse would be!). No more specifics until about 4:00 (windows are arranged in only one dimension). They don't actually show the damn thing until 4:45.

Oh, and all accompanied by the Most Annoying Music In The World.

<comment><USER22> Patience. Any good idea requires a full explanation to build it up. I feel that they did the right thing by contrasting the mouse with their new system because it helped show the benefits of a ten figure multi-touch pad compared with a single point mouse.

<comment><USER47> I'm not entirely convinced they showed such a benefit. I can already use multiple fingers to move windows by clicking anywhere on them... two of those fingers are just on buttons. Not to mention, I still only have two eyes. I can't be looking at 4 things on the screen at the same time anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> "A single finger manipulates items inside of an application. <insert finger painting>"

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have #fail.

It's pretty cool and all, but this isn't going to change anyone's life. The best idea here is just putting a big touch pad on the desktop in front of your monitor.</comment>


Joe Walker: NASA's Forgotten Spaceman - <AUTHOR> https://thehighfrontier.blog/2017/05/22/joe-walker-nasas-forgotten-spaceman <comment><USER2> Great anecdote about the X-15 from John D. Clark's excellent book _Ignition!_ :

>But something more potent than alcohol was needed for the X-15 rocket-driven supersonic research plane. Hydrazine was the first choice, but it sometimes exploded when used for regenerative cooling, and in 1949, when the program was conceived, there wasn't enough of it around, anyway. Bob Truax of the Navy, along with Winternitz of Reaction Motors, which was to develop the 50,000 pounds thrust motor, settled on ammonia as a reasonably satisfactory second best. The oxygen-ammonia combination had been fired by JPL, but RMI really worked it out in the early 50's. The great stability of the ammonia molecule made it a tough customer to burn and from the beginning they were plagued with rough running and combustion instability. All sorts of additives to the fuel were tried in the hope of alleviating the condition, among them methylamine and acetylene. Twenty-two percent of the latter gave smooth combustion, but was dangerously unstable, and the mixture wasn't used long. The combustion problems were eventually cured by improving the injector design, but it was a long and noisy process. At night, I could hear the motor being fired, ten miles away over two ranges of hills, and could tell how far the injector design had progressed, just by the way the thing sounded.

>Even when the motor, finally, was running the way it should, and the first of the series was ready to be shipped to the West Coast to be test-flown by Scott Crossfield, everybody had his fingers crossed. Lou Rapp, of RMI, flying across the continent, found himself with a knowledgeable seat mate, obviously in the aerospace business, who asked him his opinion of the motor. Lou blew up, and declared, with gestures, that it was a mechanical monster, an accident looking for a place to happen, and that he, personally, considered that flying with it was merely a somewhat expensive method of suicide. Then, remembering something he turned to his companion and asked. "By the way, I didn't get your name. What is it?"

>The reply was simple. "Oh, I'm Scott Crossfield."

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for sharing! That's a great story, hadn't heard it before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The first civilian in space was Valentina Tereshkova [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut)

<comment><AUTHOR> She was given an Air Force Commission when selected as were the other female cosmonaut candidates, so at the time of her flight held a military rank and was generally pictured in her uniform

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been fascinated with Walker's exploits since I was a kid. But it is disconcerting when I read anecdotes or stories written by those who were dyed in the wool NASA crew or part of the astronaut corps. There always seems to be an undercurrent of resentment and dismissal over a 'civilian' being involved in what was considered elite test pilot duties.

Even Gen. Yeager I believe once intimated that Walker's death during the XB-70 photo shoot was partially his fault due to 'not having the experience in formation flying that an Air Force or Navy pilot would have'. Yeager I believe went on to say that the accident probably would not have happened if all the fliers were military trained.

[Note: I can't find the quote online now, but I believe I saw it in a printed Aviation magazine a couple of decades ago.]

A tad unfair IMO, given all his other achievements.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I've seen the comments you're referring to - can't remember if they're in the book YEAGER or elsewhere. There was certainly a tension between the Air Force test pilots and the NACA/NASA research pilots. Both Yeager and Pete Knight expressed opinions that their civilian counterparts were more interested in the technical side of research than flying and lacked the skill and experience that the Air Force pilots had. Having said that most of the civilian pilots had prior military combat experience so were clearly capable at what they did.

With regards to the XB-70 incident, in retrospect it seems foolish that a close formation flight was attempted with the wings in their down position as these created huge vortices. Also the weather was poor that day (Walker had commented to a colleague that it was 'a bad day for flying' but he had to 'get this thing done')

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is cool to see on HN. Joe Walker was a cousin of my moms and has always been an inspiration to me. I've never actually met any of that side of the family and would love to if any on here claim relation as well. (You know how families are sometimes)

<comment><AUTHOR> You should try getting in touch with public affairs or the history officer via the NASA Armstrong website- they may be able to help

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I actually went to Joe Walker Middle School, he certainly wasn't forgotten then.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't think many at Dryden or the surrounding area forgot him. He was held in high regard by colleagues, but apparently this didn't count at NASA HQ</comment></comment>


Functionless Programming - <AUTHOR> http://zackarymorris.tumblr.com/post/17229036220/functionless-programming

<comment><USER2> I'm very reminded of this paper on LtU: <http://lambda-the- ultimate.org/node/4444>

We're also discussing it desultorily at <http://arclanguage.org/item?id=15696>

(Here's what I think of the API problem: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3550270>)</comment>


Netherlands fishmongers accuse herring-tasters of erring - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21731656-can-dutch-still-trust-their-herring-tasters-netherlands-fishmongers-accuse-herring-tasters <comment><USER2> Good lord, the author is having way too much fun with this article.

>Smell them and weep

>herring-tasters of erring

>the Dutch were shocked when accusations surfaced in November that there was something rotten about the national herring test

>Mr Vollaard's study has blown the lid off the sealed world of Dutch herring.

>Fishmongers [...] now say the test is rotten.

>The judge and Atlantic say they have been smeared, and that the statistical evidence is a red herring.

>But the charges [...] have left the test's reputation for impartiality gutted.

<comment><USER3> Par for the course for the Economist.

<comment><USER4> The British press in general is obsesses with word play.

<comment><USER5> There is nothing better than a good pub, especially in not very serious subjects

<comment><USER6> Also very British.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > Two who received low ratings have vowed to sue the Algemeen Dagblad for > defamation.

Interestingly, that same newspaper (AD) also runs another highly popular test about: oliebollen (fried snack mostly eaten on or just before New Year's eve). Being first (or even top 5) on that test means huge queues (loads of customers).

From what I read about that test it's a blind test. Meaning: the testers do not know where an "oliebol" is from. It's quite strange that there's such a big difference in the setup of these tests.

AD also has a test for fries. No clue how that test is setup (blind test or not). I tried a place they rated a 9 score and it was good, but was NOT worth a 9.

<comment><USER8> I'm also skeptical about how constant the quality of the fries from one place will be. If, as I suspect, there is a large amount of variation over time, this test is useless and more like a lottery.

<comment><USER9> Not sure why you'd expect that much variation - a good fry shop can make consistent and distinctive frites day after day. I don't know what all goes in to making them like that, but I've experienced it first hand...

<comment><USER10> The frequency of cooking oil change has a large impact on the taste of the fried food. Some places will keep using the same oil for a few days, only filtering it each day. Fries from a day when the oil is changed could be great while 2 days later they will taste crap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Economist authors are trying especially hard with puns these days.

<comment><USER12> Well, the headline _rhymes_ , which is clever, and maybe a bit too on the nose, but...

> "Mr Vollaard's study has blown the lid off the sealed world of Dutch > herring. Fishmongers who long suspected the judge of bias towards Atlantic > now say the test is rotten."

No puns there.

> "But the charges of _belangenverstrengeling_ (conflict of interest) have > left the test's reputation for impartiality gutted."

Wait, is the definition of "pun" just that you're using words with a double meaning? Rhyming "funny" in place of the original word isn't the main example of the art?

> "No food is more loved."

Okay, I haven't been to the Netherlands in like 400 years, but I _know_ this isn't true.

<comment><USER13> -Rotten - both in use for fish and tests

-Blown the lid - Herring comes in caskets

-Gutted - obviously fish-related

Pretty smart writing!

<comment><USER12> > Gritty tart biting!

^ So to be clear... That wasn't me making a pun, right?

<comment><USER14> Nope, not in the majority's book - you need to pass a bar of topical cleverness in order to qualify as a pun.

Though, anecdotally, I've seen the type of wordplay you demonstrate referred to as a pun among English speakers in South East Asia. Where do you hail from?

<comment><USER12> Los Angeles, descended from early 17th century Dutch colonists. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

I must admit to feigning confusion about the definition of puns; I was keying into the original commenter's complaint that the author was trying too hard on the pun front. So I quoted examples of what I thought were exemplary wordplay (i.e. not particularly forced puns).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Not mentioned in the article but the winner of this test had an apartment above his store conveniently rented to...you'll never guess...

I don't have a cat anymore so I don't really miss reading newspapers.

<comment><USER16> indeed, never

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> _> In the Netherlands haring must be lightly salted for preservation but otherwise raw, dipped in minced onion and accompanied with a pickle._

For the uninitiated this is the best way to eat them, as it is effectively Dutch sushi.

<comment><USER18> The pickle is a regional thing. In Rotterdam we eat them just with onion. I was surprised to discover about the pickles when I got one in Amsterdam.

<comment><USER19> In Amsterdam, Purmerend, and Volendam you'll get the question "ui 'n zuur d'r bij?" [1] in an almost incomprehensible Volendams accent. I got zero credit though; my accent ain't from that region.

Instead of going for the volume deal like 4 for price of 3 I recommend to eat one with bread and water. Else they're too salty and you'll be thirsty or get stomach issues. YMMV.

[1] "onion and sour with it?" where sour means pickles.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Something is rotten in the state of Denmark? Hamlet strikes again!

</comment><comment><USER21> Total lack of net neutrality.

</comment><comment><USER22> Fisherman's Fritz fishes fresh fishes...

</comment><comment><USER23> Paywalled

<comment><USER24> Opening in incognito mode works. Sites like these are pushing us to do our entire web experience in incognito mode.

<comment><USER25> I use Firefox containers for this. They're not incognito, but they allow opening more articles in my main window.

<comment><USER26> huh, I did not know that - finally, a use [for me] for them!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


End of Greek Aid Package as Country Faces Demographic Crisis - <AUTHOR> http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/end-of-greek-aid-package-as-country-faces-demographic-crisis-a-1222554.html <comment><USER3> > She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has > promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the > Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. > Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into > the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman > authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs in the administration > served as a reward. Relationships were more important than skills for > filling official positions.

That's Greece in a nutshell right there. Skills were never relevant, and still aren't. It's all about who you know, and what political leverage you have. The results are there for all to see. I left Greece 6 years ago, and unfortunately whenever I visit, nothing seems to change.

<comment><USER4> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it.

Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments.

'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them.

Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far.

It's probably much worse in Greece, and every Greek person I know has left.

The EU may be about as good for Greece as the USA is to West Viginia - sure, you may be protected and have a low-baseline standard of living, but you're going to get kind of wiped out and never recover because nobody will stay, and nobody will invest.

In these Federations, the winners are the established economic powers. Smaller that are really, really responsible (i.e. Montana, Dakotas, or Sweden and Switzerland in EU) and hold their own. Otherwise the power slips away.

Greece and Portugal are becoming retirement homes the size of nations.

<comment><USER5> Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 - please resist the temptation of bad-mouthing Portugal before you understand more about it's current political, economical and social situation.

<comment><USER6> Watching it from the inside, i think its main source is tourism and foreigners buying real estate. If the latter ends, i think the economy will fall back again. Because nothing fundamental seems to be changing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm slightly salty: Hey, at least Greece is relevant. That Golden Ancient Age of Greece bought it relevance, support and sympathy for all eternity.

I'm from Romania, a poorer member of the EU that faces an even greater demographic crisis. You don't hear a peep about us in the news, except for recently, when the corrupt government started beating up protestors who were asking for stronger anti-corruption measures.

Anyway, from a slightly less salty perspective: it's a real shame what happened in Greece. I think Greece and Argentina may be the only developed countries which lost the status. Hopefully Greece bounces back but I think they'd need a big mentality change (their is awfully close to ours from what I've seen).

<comment><USER8> We don't hear much about Romania but we hear regularly in the news about Romanians, usually in connection with atm machines and aspects of the night time economy. :)

<comment><USER7> You're not helping with my saltiness :D

:(

Anyway, I'll cut it out, since this whole topic and thread aren't really HN material.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > turned Greece into a different country.

They turned themselves into a different country by borrowing Euros at German market interest rates while their previous interest rates for borrowing were at 16% before they joined the Eurozone. They lived way above their means for more than 10 years, what did they expect for a country that has virtually no industry?

<comment><USER10> That's neoliberal propaganda.

1\. Greece did not live above it means. It did not have more debts than other countries in the EU zone, countries that did not crash 2\. Greece would have been fine it it had not been forced to destroy its economy with an austerity program

> _They lived way above their means_

You probably are german, because that is a BILD/CDU slogan. It's very hard to qualify what that is supposed to mean. A country can not "live above their means". It can have too much debts. That wasn't the case here.

<comment><USER9> I'm not German and I don't see why it would have anything to do with that.

"Living about their means" is what happens when their debt levels grow exponentially:

[https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7KXHAuORi4w/TbS897oFTGI/AAAAAAAAA...](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7KXHAuORi4w/TbS897oFTGI/AAAAAAAAAlk/jzf- BOZBbe0/s1600/GreeceDebtGDP.jpg)

in what world do you think this is sustainable? The US can get away with huge amount of debts because they have the dollar, which the most trusted international currency for virtually every commodity trade. Other countries don't have that luxury.

<comment><USER11> Not to mention they literally asked Goldman-Sachs to help cook the books so they could qualify for joining the EU. I don't understand why people keep perpetuating this 'poor Greece is so innocent' myth. There was rabid government overspending, they literally defrauded the EU and they still got saved!

<comment><USER12> EU was not defrauded, since they admitted they knew how the books where altered.

On the other hand, do you know who didn't know nothing about it? Greek people, particularly young people who are now in their 20s and 30s, and can't find a job to live as proper human beings (>30% youth unemployment). Yet, you look like you enjoy this. I, just, wish you will never face something like that in your future.

<comment><USER9> > do you know who didn't know nothing about it?

They can blame their parents and grandparents who voted for stupid and corrupt politicians. You don't need to look very far.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> >With the help of French officials, Gerovasili wants to lay a new foundation for the Greek administration.

I'm laughing at the irony of asking French official for administrative reforms. I mean each time in France the government tries an administrative reform we're either getting strikes and protests devolving in the usual riots or a reform that's either useless or make things worse. No reforms has succeeded to bring any positive change here, so it's pretty stupid to ask the French on how to reform, it's like asking a mole what colours look like.

<comment><USER10> Plus, the french administration with its bureaucracy has to be the most ineffective in Europe. France has so much bureaucracy, it makes Germany (already overburdened with bureaucracy) look like an efficient market-oriented country.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Eh, I might be off topic, but to me Greece seems helpless and beyond saving.

Here is a personal anecdote. Before finishing university, I got a job offer by a very prestigious international company. I accepted, and decided to register myself as a freelancer so that I pay my respective taxes.

But... they would not let me do that. The person at the freelancer (TEVE) office, explained to me, that since I did not finish my university I was not allowed to perform that work, remotely, for a foreign company. Doing so, would mean that I am stealing job opportunities from people like his son (yup), who finished a similar school and now are unemployed.

I went again, and again, and I was shooed away with a similar excuses. Even though according to government websites my case was legit, and there was a special clause for people working for foreign companies. But apparently something written online at a .gov website doesn't account to anything - <USER2> people at the kiosks know better. Finally, months later, I decided to hire an accountant.

It so just happened that they knew her personally. I got my license less than a week later. After 4 months of stress, being told to my face I am breaking the law and I am stealing their sons jobs, I finally had my own freelancer company registered to my name. I joked that I should register as a heart surgeon instead, it seemed that with knowing the right people it was definitely possible.

....

When I was leaving the country to come to the states, I went to the same office to de-register. Apparently the phone lines where down, but the person there wrote down my name and swore they would de-register me. Three and a half months later, and while I already had moved to the states, a letter that fined me for not paying taxes and for not paying my company fees for the last 3 months, was delivered to my parents house. Apparently I was still registered as a company owner. Oops. My dad for some reason paid that fine and didn't tell me until months later, to not "stress me".

Fucking hell Greece. I could go on and on....

<comment><USER15> Then again, that's the same reasoning the US uses to restrict H1-B and similar visas...

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The article is mystifyingly optimistic about the prospects for the reform of government. Only lawyers can resist reform better than government employees. And then there's the digital revolution in government. If examples elsewhere are a guide, there's huge potential there for a screw up as well. Although I have heard that Estonia has managed it well. Maybe it should be them rather than the French they should be getting advice from?

<comment><USER16> Yup. I'm of the belief that there is something which can be counted as "too much" change - change beyond the capacity of the system to absorb.

So when the gears go out of sync, the real world just finds ways to pretend to match the requirements - keeping the change drivers happy- while going on with life as close to normal as possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> At the end what are structural changes which will grow the Greek economy? From Bulgaria to Estonia, the east European economies are far more competitive and innovative and could still suck the growth out of Greece in the small room left around Germany's giant and productive manufacturing economy. Greece is nowhere a rising technology star neither.

I guess Greece will find an equilibrium at a lower income per capita.

<comment><USER18> Long story short, facilitation of private sector. If I need one month of red tape to open a new business and have to face a mountain of absurd taxes from day one it's game over. Social security for example is obligatory and it's a huge hurdle for young people who want to open a business and start making money. It creates a lot of insecurity if you have no idea whether your business will succeed to have to pay a monthly fee for social security which if you don't they might confiscate your bank account.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> > "In the past decades, the governments have so overwhelmingly failed that > Greeks blame everything that goes wrong on the state,"

This hypocrisy makes me angry. Those governments were not forced on poor Greek people by bad Jews or lizards from the space. Greek voters had a choice and they repeatedly refused a wide range of responsible trustworthy politicians that were telling the uncomfortable truth and repeatedly elected whoever would promise them the biggest free lunch.

Of course, such hypocrisy is not limited to Greece, it is rather ubiquitous in modern democracies.

<comment> barrow-rider > Of course, such hypocrisy is not limited to Greece, it is rather ubiquitous > in modern democracies.

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. " \- HL Mencken.

Presumably Greece is in the getting "it good and hard" phase.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> >There is almost no work -- the main sources of income are beekeeping and a bit of forestry. There's no tourism, even though, according to UNESCO, the air here is cleaner than almost anywhere else in Europe.

One of the greatest things the tech industry could do to decrease the economic inequality due to location would be to embrace remote work. Imagine what even having 10 developers living in the village could do for its economy.

One area that this would for sure revitalize would be Middle America. There are towns and counties that are in a deep economic recession, but have lots of cheap land and housing. Meanwhile in Silicon Valley, developers making 6 figures worry about whether they can afford a shack. Remote work would be a great boon for both workers and communities.

<comment><USER21> >Imagine what even having 10 developers living in the village could do for its economy.

I guarantee that this village has no internet (other than 3/4G with a data cap).

<comment><USER22> I don't know where you live, but in certain locations in Europe (villages, small cities) you can get decent internet. Unlimited 4G/5G is also gonna happen in a few years.

<comment><USER21> I currently live in Germany, but I am Greek and have lived in Greece for most of my life.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is a country-sized version of a problem that has been seen a lot before: company towns where the company has left, or mono-industry towns where the industry has gone overseas. The big American example is Detroit.

There don't seem to be any easy solutions. Taxing the "winners" of economic growth to pay those who've lost out as a result sounds great but is impossible when they're not even in the same country.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've stopped reading Spiegel.de. It has become too painful. The articles are very shallow and the titles have become very click-baity

</comment><comment><USER21> >It's surprising because economic liberalism doesn't have any deep roots in Greece. There is no liberal party. The Greeks traditionally think in terms of left and right.

A) There is a liberal party in Greece (just as much as there is a liberal party in Germany or France), the people just don't vote for it.

B) Liberalism and "laissez-faire thinking" _are_ right wing, I can't see another way of thinking about that.

I am a recent (after-crisis) Greek immigrant and the assumptions made by the article are not true for me. It is not the wages (I am a professional in an area where there are a lot of good paying jobs, even in Greece) or the bad public sector (you learn to deal with that) that is keeping me away from Greece. It is the beyond-imagination terrible working conditions. Why would I leave my union-protected job in Germany to work twice as many hours (paid overtime is not a thing in Greece) with 0 job stability?

<comment><USER25> Liberalism itself isn't right wing at all. Consider that in the USA at the moment liberalism is most concentrated within the democratic party as most neo-liberals have left the party post Trump.

Steve Schmidt and Joe Scarborough are two obvious examples of this shift.

<comment><USER26> I think this would depend on what you consider liberalism. For instance, I think two of the most important components of liberalism are the autonomy of the individual and the consent of the governed.

If we wanted to create a truly liberal government we might have institutions where you were given the option of paying an education tax. And if you paid this tax, then you would be able to opt in to public education benefits which would be equitably distributed and could approach "free" depending on how many people paid in and the cost of the education institute any given student was pursuing. However, if you chose to opt out of this tax, you would be obligated to pay the costs and fees all on your own.

Instead proponents of "free" things tend to take the view that we should forcefully demand one segment of society pay for this "free" thing for the rest of society, and threaten them with violence or imprisonment if they refuse. There might be completely reasonable justifications for this, but I think it is a stretch to call this a liberal view once we consider what we actually mean by "free".

<comment><USER23> > opt in to public education benefits which would be equitably distributed and > could approach "free" depending on how many people paid in and the cost of > the education institute any given student was pursuing. However, if you > chose to opt out of this tax, you would be obligated to pay the costs and > fees all on your own

And if you opt out of the public education tax, every time you want to see a doctor or cross a bridge or use a computer program, you have to pay a contribution to the student loans of the people who wrote it?

(The history of public education in the west goes back to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system) and wasn't originally "redistributive" in the modern sense at all, more the tail end of feudalism)

<comment><USER26> Can you state your implications more directly? I'm pretty sure I see what you're suggesting, but I'd like to make sure I'm not straw manning you.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Poll HN: Game Play vs Income - <AUTHOR>

Go here: http://tolu.na/1bNfigp
HN is having trouble with recognising the URL, sorry for the shitty link. It's a QuickSurveys survey, owned by toluna - hence the weird link format.
NOTE: Seems to have trouble in Chrome but FF is fine :(
RESULTS ARE HERE: http://tolu.na/1bNk1yO <comment><USER2> Shouldn't it just be hobbies vs income? What makes playing video games a special case? I only mention this because any relationship you might find is probably applicable to any hobby.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm not sure how helpful knowing someone's income is when sampling user's from around the world unless you have some form of secondary data that helps place people on the same measuring stick

That and comparing my salary to people in San Fransisco is depressing at face value (but less so when cost of living gets worked in)

</comment><comment><USER4> This is wrong, hn has an international audience

I earn between 0 and 25k a year in my country and that puts me in the middle class</comment>


PG&E gas employees wined and dined just before mass power outages - <AUTHOR> https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/PG-E-gas-employees-wined-and-dined-just-before-14512194.php <comment><USER2> Seems like. Hit piece....they were from has side of things, what would they have done anyway ?....."PG&E confirmed that 10 to 12 employees on the gas side of the business were mingling with 50 to 60 of their top customers at a winery in Sonoma County on Monday and Tuesday."

<comment><USER3> Yeah, Most of the coverage of the outage has been complete garbage fueling and fueled by public resentment.

I was listening to NPR forum yesterday and people were calling in and complaining that PG&E was continuing their tree trimming activities during the outage. The expert panel empathized with caller outrage opposed to pointing out trimming is countionious activity.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Maybe I'm out of touch, but why is this a big deal - the Gas and Electric side of every combined utility I've worked with are very separate business units, with differing sales forces, policies and completely different regulatory regimes.

<comment><USER5> As a non-Californian it sometimes look like there is a body hard at work scapegoating PG&E.

Not that they are blameless, but I think there's a lot of blame to go around and the voters & government do not want to consider their own contributions to the problem.

<comment><USER6> What specific blame do you put on the voters and government?

<comment><USER5> Forestry management decisions (not allowing enough controlled burns, underfunding manual brush clearing), unwillingness to pay for buried powerlines, poor development planning in towns on the wildland-urban interface, lax wildfire building codes, no real enforcement of defensible space rules, inability to cope with even brief power outages during high risk periods...

PG&E was holding the match, but the public & the government built the tinderbox IMO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Personally, I'd gladly go without power for a few days if this helps avoid catastrophic wildfires and certain death. I'll take it upon myself to find a solution independent of PG&E.

</comment><comment><USER8> Oh fuck these ad blocker walls. I don't even have an ad blocker on this device.

<comment><USER9> I understand why the admins don't want to ban links with paywalls or ad- blocker walls, but it would better if these links at least had some indication that they are inaccessible with reasonable privacy settings enabled. I don't want to vote for this behavior by giving them page views if I can help it, but by the time I know the site is walled off, it's too late - I've already helped to pad their numbers.

This one is egregious because it pops a modal dialog with a dummy "X" button.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Working link: [https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/PG-E-gas- employ...](https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/PG-E-gas-employees- wined-and-dined-just-before-14512194.php)

<comment> java-man Executives wined and dined.

What do they care? The company is bankrupt: they just succeeded in shedding down a load of responsibility.</comment></comment>