Ask HN: Programmers, what are your min requirements? What is your utopia? - <AUTHOR>

This account is a throwaway as I wanted to ask this semi-anonymously.
I've been thinking over the past few years about what my minimum requirements are in a working environment and what my ideal would look like, but I honestly have no idea -- not really.
I've got 10+ years of coding experience at a major corporation -- non-tech -- and I'm getting rather bored. I'd like to do something new: it doesn't have to be new subject matter, but I'd like to do something different. But before I embark on my journey I need to define my parameters: what is the minimum I need to leave my current (cushy) position? What is my ideal working environment?
I honestly have no idea how to answer these questions - which is scary. So I open the question up to you, HN: what is your IDEAL utopia for a workplace, as a programmer? It could relate to the physical workplace, source control, programming language, IDE, agile, Goodness and not Evilness, whatever. It's entirely subjective. What is your MINIMUM baseline for a working environment for you to even consider working somewhere? Again: this is entirely open and unstructured. It might be "free snacks," it might be "lets me bring my dog to work" or it might be "doesn't engage in human sacrifice every week." <comment><USER2> Not a utopia (no idea what that would look like). This is my bare minimum I set myself as I'm now on the market.

No open plan spaces or sharing. I want an office to myself or at least my own cubicle with full-height walls.

No mandatory overtime or hints at "we all work really hard." I expect to come in at 9 and leave at 5.

No waterfall process (yeah, it still exists)

SCM, reasonably recent toolset, clueful managers. The actual language or technology isn't that important as long as it's not trending towards obsolescence.

Market pay and benefits. I currently have 4+ weeks vacation and I just turned down a job where they said "everybody starts out at 2 weeks." F' that!

<comment><USER3> Waterfall.. Heh. That's what I do, only with agile buzzwords thrown in :( everything else about where I'm at is perfect. Amazing talented people, damned cool bleeding edge tech (for where I am anyway), and I'm left to play with new innovative stuff. So, my ideal place would be exactly where I am, only without waterfall.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Give me a product I believe in and a team that I respect and enjoy working with. After that everything else doesn't matter much to me. Because, with the right team and project it doesn't even feel like a job anymore.

When work starts feeling like work, that's when I start looking for a change. That's why I've always been drawn to start ups. It's usually a small group of talented and smart people looking to make a dent in the world.

</comment><comment><USER5> I wouldn't spend time thinking about your minimum requirements. Seems like you've already something pretty close to that.

I recommend instead to think about what _your_ ideal situation is, and then invest your energy in creating/achieving that. Make it something compelling enough that you'll put in the massive amount of effort to make it happen.

Hearing other peoples ideal work situations might be a source of ideas, but ultimately, it's up to you to decide what's important to you.

Personally, my list includes: high income, respectful clients, choice of languages and technologies, working on things that matter, getting paid to learn new technologies, smart colleagues, good process, autonomy, time freedom, location freedom, ability to bring in team members I select, low bureaucracy, low politics, and working with contacts high on the org chart.

As far as my physical work environment, I'm pretty flexible. I've worked from coworking spaces, cafes, Regus locations, hotels, 3/5/7-series BMWs, airplanes, restaurants, E/S-class Mercedes', dinner tables, beaches, boats, train stations, and occasionally even the offices of my clients. I do my best to pay attention to ergonomics and environmental quality. I carry an inflatable lumbar pillow and a yoga mat and like workspaces free of fluorescent lighting and chemical scents.

</comment><comment><USER6> I freelance but often a startup client will ask if they can hire me. To me it's not about lunches and big monitors, nor git and agile. These are my requirements:

\- I want to keep working remotely.

\- The salary should be competitive with what I'm making now.

\- There should be proof the company is an ongoing concern.

\- The company should have a good answer to how it can help me progress in my career, preferably without moving into management. (As far as I can tell most startups have never been asked about career advancement before.)

\- There should be some upside beyond the salary, because owning my own consulting business already has upside from side projects and potential to grow into a development firm.

Those are probably unrealistic, so I'm still freelancing. :-)

<comment><USER7> To me, this is the best answer. I'll work for almost any company for a long, long time as long as they allow me to work remotely and always pay me competitively. The rest are just small, interchangeable details.

<comment><USER8> I agree with that. Pay me well and let me work remote and I can handle mostly all the other details that make me happy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am not going to present my answer as my ideal utopia but rather as a suggestion. You should try one of these things

1\. Go Indie

2\. Join a startup

These both options have cultural parameters that are weighing in exactly opposite direction to that of a major-corp. Doing this will help you learn about your own definition of an ideal utopia for a workplace. Having experienced both the cultures you'll be able to decide your ideal utopia - what team size you like to work with, at what pace, at what degree of freedom, in a flat hierarchy or well structured one, remotely or inside an office surrounded by colleagues and so on. I hope this helps in finding your ideal workplace. Good Luck :)

</comment><comment><USER10> For me, I want the freedom to learn new technologies and try out ideas. A humane work environment, such that work is valued and respected - and everyone pulls their weight. The deadlines are reasonable and the management chain understands the tradeoffs inherent in software development and delivery. If I work on a big existing system, the problems still left to solve should be within my (and the team's) ability to understand but still stretching my current knowledge. Of course, that changes constantly because I am always learning new things.

For a while, I was really into Angular and badly wanted a job where I could just do that full time. I had been mainly doing backend Java stuff at work, but eventually was in charge of a completely green-field project so I wrote it using Angular/Java. However, I've quickly gotten comfortable with those technologies and now Clojure/Haskell/FRP excite me more. Not to say I would write big production apps with them right out the gate - but it would be valuable for me to learn more about them and understand the tradeoffs. I also still haven't written a lot of backend code for massively-distributed systems, so anything involving that would interest me right now (i.e. need for real- time stream processing, mapreduce, sharding, etc).

I also want to work on a team of really smart people - not arrogant programmer-types, but people that know what they're doing. I want to pair with someone and learn a lot from them. I actually like to impart the knowledge that I have while pairing, but I just don't want it to be a one-way street. I also don't want to work in isolation - so a project where I rarely interact with anyone gets boring for me (and especially if the technology doesn't excite me much) will end in me leaving for somewhere else.

</comment><comment><USER11> I need a place where if I really have something on my mind I'm free to take a day and explore it. If I think I can improve the quality and codebase I should be free to do so provided I dont break anything or I make all the changes required to implement it fully.

Example: I wanted to start to implement std::thread and use of auto. It required us to start using c++11. I should be free to do this, fix anything, make sure devs are set to compile correctly and start implementing. I can do it locally, demo it and then get the green light to merge.

</comment><comment><USER12> The number #1 thing that i want: treat me like an adult. This means i will not follow any stupid workspace policies. Example:

\- If i get a phone call that i consider important, i will answer it.

\- If i am feeling sick, i will stay at home, don't ask me to provide a doctors note.

\- If i come in late, i will stay longer, just don't write me some BS e-mail.

\- Don't install a website filter or something similar.

\- I will take my off-days when i desire, i don't know 6 months upfront when i need a day off.

... the list continues.

Somewhat minimum as far as the physical workspace and tools: a desk, a decent chair, a 24" screen, a custom-built PC and my operating system of choice with full control. I don't mind working in a open/shared space as long as it doesn't get too loud. A big bonus would be providing free snacks, drinks and meals - it is a cheap and easy thing to do and benefits everyone.

</comment><comment><USER13> If it's the _right_ product and the right people I'll work in a sewer pipe...at night...in COBOL...

The creature-comforts only start to matter to me when I'm fundamentally unhappy with the job in some other way (not rewarding, incompatible culture, etc).

So my utopia is: A product I believe in, co-workers I love to be around. That simple.

</comment><comment><USER14> A few things actually. I only do my day job to pay for my lifestyle and hobbies. I would be happy to take a pay cut if it meant i could do something of significance. For me that is something that would have a positive impact in others lives as cliche as that sounds. It makes me get up in the morning, and makes my body tingle. For instance a recent ted talk on drones aiding aid/medicine drops to remote places off the world. That just excites me! Or i would love to work on games, which is my side project, that my day job pays for.

In terms of physical env, i don't care much. As long as i'm comfortable and i can do my work. Preferably i'd like to work at home, with little to no interaction with anyone. Working in the IT/Banking industry for over 14 years, has made be cynical on human interaction.

<comment><AUTHOR> I am in the same industry and am looking for a change. But I have to define what would make me happy in a day job. My hobby is programming. My job is programming. But there's something soul-crushing about programming at a bank.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I know exactly what you mean - I was thinking the same thing when was making decision to start something on my own.

As of physical environment - stup below works perfectly for me: \- 27'' double screen \- proper headphones with noise cancellation and DVD's stack with my favorite music \- proper ergonomic chair \- big desk \- non-membrane keyboard \- big (0.5 liter min.) cup of something to drink (not necessary coffee since it usually makes it harder to focus)

As of tools I use: \- operating system depends on work I do, however Linux Arch is my favorite \- subversion as version control (old but still has something in it) \- working with code - usually simple kwrite is just enough

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess I am wondering more: what sort of work would make you say "hey, I want to go work there!"

I guess I'm trying to figure this out in reverse. I know I'd leave whatever I'm doing to work for, say, Google because Google (really: I needn't say more, right?).

But what makes Google so attractive? Some of it is the bragging rights but a lot of is that they work on cool things and give you free reign to do cool things.

<comment><USER15> I'm working on custom integrations tailored to specific project so for me each project is like a new job where I'm picking up tools and technologies that will deliver stable and maintainable outcome. New job, new people and new challenges - that keeps me sorta away from burning out. So I guess the main question is how much influence do you want to have? Do you want to craft specific algorithm that is somebody else idea? Or do you want to come up with your own ideas and bring them alive? I'm in second group.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'd recommend getting a bit more specific. Your question is so open ended as to be unanswerable in any practical way.

First figure out which areas of "work environment" you actually care about. * location / commute time / remote? * if onsite then physical workspace ? * develpment environment (mac/windows/linux)? * technology stack? * personality of company? * social value (if any) of the company? * etc. etc.

Until you know what aspects of "working environment" you can't really define what the min requirements are. Also, everyone's idea of "utopia" is different. We all have different values.

</comment><comment><USER17> My last gig and my current one are polar opposites but both filled needs. I code for a very large direct mailer. It is not interesting work, but the pay and benefits are great and it's super stable. My last gig was with a start up that never really got going. Lots of R&D coding, lots of trying new things - the work was very satisfying, getting paid weeks late, months in a row was not.

Ideally my next gig would be in the middle of these - stable but more engaging work.

</comment><comment><USER18> \- Wiliness to sit down and define requirements

\- Clear strategic goals

\- Continuous improvement

\- Feasible deadlines

\- Remote work

\- Payment proportional to value added

This is the perfect project to me.

PS: An employee might be more interested in perks like iMac and free food. To me it's bull __ __to keep people overworked and underpaid, hence why I consult.

</comment><comment><USER19> I will only work at companies where I am peers with everyone, from the bottom to the top. Everyone makes good decisions and everyone makes bad decisions. If you're hiring someone you don't trust to make decisions or question yours then it's probably a bad sign.

</comment><comment><USER20> A place where I can keep innovating, keep creating things that ship and get used. Where, if I know somebody who can help us, I can get them hired on.</comment>


AI machine could make any vehicle autonomous - <AUTHOR> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4473206/Self-driving-robot-chauffeur-fit-suitcase.html <comment><USER2> ...or not. Even a fully-integrated autonomous vehicle has MAJOR issues, so let's add another layer of issues on top.</comment>


Why Americans dress so casually - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/09/08/why-americans-dress-so-casually/ <comment><USER2> I feel like there is a conflation here of dressing casually[1] and dressing like a slob[2]. The former understands silhouette, color (often lack thereof), texture, etc., but eschews traditional formal attire.

> The only thing I will say is that there's still a bit of a gender hangover, > where women are singled out for wearing clothing normally associated with > men.

Wait, what? This is the _opposite_ of how it is. It was a big deal when that celebrity kid wore a dress[3]. Women wearing denim, an oxford shirt, or sneakers is not even something people would notice as "off". Black jeans are practically a _uniform_ for women in NYC.

> I don't know if it will happen, let alone sometime soon, but self-cleaning > fabrics, I think that will be a thing.

Not exactly self-cleaning, but merino and synthetic technical fabric is very _hype_ currently.

[1]: [https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook](https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=apc+lookbook) [2]: [http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week- begins-315...](http://www.theonion.com/article/iowa-fashion-week-begins-31579) [3]: [http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_...](http://www.etonline.com/news/165398_jaden_smith_wears_dress_to_prom_attends_with_hunger_games_amandla_sternberg/)

<comment><USER3> I think your perception of what dressing casually is will be dramatically skewed by where you are in the US -- as will what you deem to look slovenly. I think that the two are relative -- dressing casual for your location is doing something to distinguish yourself from the lazier crowd.

I also think that using lookbook models as examples of casual dress is going to be excessive outside of fashion hubs. Their clothes are tailored well, layered appropriately with appealing, seasonally appropriate color schemes -- outside of a well curated closet, these aren't going to be looks that you'll pull out every day. And if your wardrobe is well selected, you probably are dressing a little more than casually.

Also, I would say that skinny jeans are a pretty gender agnostic article of clothing now. And again, I think location comes into play. You're going to see a disproportionate number of women wearing sundresses/skirts in the south etc. I do think that in larger cities this is much less of a thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> She claims that Americans dress more casually than anywhere else, and I don't doubt that the US has played a massive role in promoting more casual dress (also the cowboy esthetic, rock and roll, etc), but I'm not so sure the US is really more casual than every other country out there.

When I hear Americans talk about business casual, it's generally khakis and button down shirts, except when you're in Silicon Valley. But in Netherland, jeans, t-shirt and sneakers (or army boots, in my case) are totally normal in the office. This was the case when I worked in small software companies, but currently I work at a major bank, and it's no different (except sandals, flip- flops and shorts do seem to be a step too far). The business side is a bit more formal, but the IT side is completely casual. Probably because everybody is looking at Silicon Valley.

<comment><USER5> You've activated my pet peeve! A shirt with buttons, cuffs, and a collar is called a "shirt" without modifiers, or a "dress shirt" if you are in an aggressively casual-dressing context where someone thinks it means "t-shirt" (which is really properly referred to as a "t-shirt"). "Button down" is a type of collar that can be buttoned down (hence the name), not a type of shirt. A "button down shirt" would logically be a shirt with a collar that buttons down, which is really a less-formal variant (it's a convenience for the physically active).

<comment><USER6> A "polo shirt" is one where the collar points button to the shirt. Named for polo players whom had an aversion to their collars flying up while playing.

<comment><USER7> That's not a polo shirt. A polo shirt is a cotton t shirt, with a collar, and a button up neck. The collar is soft and un-boned and is not button down.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_shirt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polo_shirt)

EDIT: although you're right that button down collars did start in polo.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Casually? To me, it seems that americans really like to overdress. People still tell me (please, feel free to correct me — I'm not living in US, so my information may be outdated) that they would get strange looks if they wore flip-flops and shirts to the office, regardless of how hot it is outside, and how dangerous for health it might be to wear pants that don't allow the proper ventilation.

When I look at pictures of NYC, I always see people walking in suits down the streets. It's bizzare.

<comment><USER3> It's also important to note where in the US you're talking about. Where I'm from, Atlanta, one of the largest business cities in the south eastern U.S., what you've said is absolutely true. If you're going to work, for the majority of jobs there you're definitely not going to wear flip-flops/t-shirts. A polo would probably be the closest acceptable article of clothing to a t-shirt for most jobs. I've had a coworker get sent home for wearing shorts on casual Friday. However, moving to the west coast, the culture is completely different. I work in the tech hub of downtown Seattle, and most people are dressed in sneakers/t-shirts/hoodies etc., with unkempt looking hair.

My fiancee, who is from the West Coast, jokes that if you're wearing a suit in the South, you probably have an important job -- if you're wearing a suit in Seattle, you probably work at the mall.

<comment><USER9> "if you're wearing a suit in Seattle, you probably work at the mall."

There's a socioeconomic U-shape to the clothing curve for employed people where lower status jobs have dress codes to indicate their lack of individuality and ease of replaceability and interchangeability, and general lack of humanity or humane treatment via strict and formal uniforms. Then it declines into "cubical land" where a local minima is probably the "jeans friday". Then the curve goes back up where there are strong labor markets (programmers in SV, former Apple CEOs who like turtlenecks, etc) and slovenly attire is a very public display of how difficult replacement would be.

Something else to keep in mind is the unemployment rate (the real labor force participation rate, not the made up propaganda figures) is about half. And labor saving home appliances mean the half who are not working are no longer standing at a sink doing dishes or hand washing laundry. And a minimal level of social transfer payments mean the unemployed have some money and therefore something to be seen doing. In "the bad old days" the bums down by the river were not well dressed, but they were unseen. Now a days you will be seeing the unemployed half of the population, and they have not necessarily begun to dress up. This has certain trend setting issues. Given "people of walmart" photos I don't feel the need to dress up when I torture myself by shopping at walmart, and that caving in, applied to a very large scale, ends up with very few people dressing up to shop at walmart.

<comment><USER2> Casual Friday seems like an absurd concept to me. Either you're capable of getting the job done in denim, or you're not. If you cannot, why would you be allowed to wear them on Friday? If you can, why wouldn't you be able to wear them on Monday through Thursday?

<comment><USER9> I can control what you wear down to the weirdest detail, and you'll cooperate.

<comment><USER10> I'm a computer programmer. The computer does not care what I wear. (If I had customer contact, what I wear would matter.)

If you're my boss, and you turn into that kind of a control freak, I may cooperate for the moment, but my resume will be on the street by this evening.

<comment><USER4> It's always possible that some business visitor, maybe representing a big customer, gets a tour of the office and gets to see where the programmers are working.

Personally I'd think that visit would be more effective if he sees that the programmers are not dressy business people but people hired for their brains, but clearly some disagree.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I would say weather, obesity and technology also play major roles, possibly more than "fashion" or maybe creating fashion.

Weather: During the 20th century Americans have increasingly moved west and south to warmer climates (go back 100 years and most Americans lived in the cooler climates in the north east). Loose khakis, t-shirt and sandals is much more comfortable in warm weather.

Obesity: Very few were obese back when suits were common. It's not comfortable anymore to tuck your shirt in the pants once the belly pushes outwards (personal experience).

Technology: Washers and dryers became common throughout the 20th century. Washing clothes used to be time consuming but the washer and dryer meant that it's now easy to wash your jeans and t-shirts. Meanwhile it's still a hassle to have your suit dry cleaned and your shirts pressed or ironed.

</comment><comment><USER12> I understand the advantages of dressing casually, but when I watch a video from the mid 20th century the first thing that strikes me (in a positive way) is that ordinary people took pride in their personal appearance. Nowadays it feels like people just don't care about their looks.

<comment><USER13> "Nowadays it feels like people just don't care about their looks."

Do you think that is a bad thing?

<comment><USER14> I do think it is a bad thing.

<comment><USER13> why?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm aware most people in tech don't care about their appearance, so I probably will get downovted, but I feel much better at work around nicely dressed people - just as I prefer to work in a cozy office rather than an old hole with devastated walls, torn carpet and ugly desks. And yes, how you dress tells a lot about you.

<comment><USER16> Caring about dressing nicely is a Moneyball thing to me.

If you care about how someone dresses when you hire them, odds are you're using bad criteria for your decisions. That's not to say that you can't get great people, but you're probably paying over the odds for them, if "dresses nicely" is one of your factors for selection.

I think I will hire better if I dont care about dress code - I think odds are better that I will find a good hire if one of my criteria is not "do they own a suit or a dress".

<comment><USER17> > If you care about how someone dresses when you hire them

Funnily enough, all the programmers I know who "don't care about dress" also will say that they have negative perceptions of people turning up in a suit for a programming job.

They care about dress, they just want people to conform to a very casual dress code. Which would be fine, if they admitted to it. Instead, they say they "don't care about dress".

<comment><USER18> They don't care about dress. They care a lot about being around people that care about dress, and turning up in a suit is a very reliable indicator that a person cares about dress.

That said, it's a very reliable indicator on almost all situations, the most important exception being during an employment interview; it's extremely noisy then.

<comment><USER2> > They care a lot about being around people that care about dress, and turning > up in a suit is a very reliable indicator that a person cares about dress.

I disagree with this.

Showing up in "a suit", in most cases, isn't caring about dress, it's thinking that a required formality of dress is necessary. People that _care_ about clothes, and are fashion enthusiasts, will show up in Thom Browne, CdG, Engineered Garments, etc. - or even just basic Club Monaco-type stuff if they're don't have a giant amount of disposable income.

While adherence to arbitrary fashion formality levels may be an indicator of unawareness, an interest in fashion seems incredibly unrelated to programming skill, unless the programmer is expected to be solely interested in programming - in which case, they should also rule out runners, rock climbers, guitarists, etc.

<comment><USER18> By "care about dress" I don't mean people that care about how they are dressed. Those don't bother anybody.

It's people that care about how others are dressed that are the problem. What you call "thinking that a formality of dress is necessary". We disagree on terminology.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I think this article has it backwards. I usually gauge what the company culture is by the dress code. If everyone in the office is wearing a suit and looks down on me for not doing so, I don't want to work there. If they judge someone for not wearing a suit I don't want to work there. If they care about good results and as long as you dress appropriately for any customers you may face, that is probably a good culture.

<comment><USER20> I agree with you. I also think this way. However, keep in mind though that the unemployment for software engineers in the Bay Area is nearly zero. I've rejected more companies than the other way around. So for people like us, we tend to collectively get a lot of say over company culture, or else we leave and find a better place to work. This isn't true of most other industries though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> The consensus here seems to be that it is a comfort thing and the US is generally warmer. There is truth in that, but I would argue there is a bigger cultural divide at play.

I was just sitting in a restaurant in France the other day and an american was present one table over sporting a baseball cap indoors. I realise it's my issue, but this really bothered me for some reason.

<comment><USER4> The etiquette certainly used to be that you take your hat off indoors. Men at least; women maybe not, for some reason.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm in the US and worked for a bank and remember getting pulled aside by my manager because his boss was upset that my dress shoes did not match dress pants. Keep in mind that I was a lowly programmer, had to wear a tie, and when he had investors come through we were literally told to hide.

I now work for the bank that bought out that bank and work from home currently in jeans and a hoodie, much more befitting my status.

</comment><comment><USER23> I've worked in Chicago and London , in different kind of companies. Chicago was extremely casual (sandals with white socks), ere In London we have to do smart casual every day but allowed to wear denims on friday. I've never been to NY but i feel that could be close to what London is like?

<comment><USER24> One thing I found working in London (1999-2000ish) was that even when everybody was 'forced' to wear a suit, many people gave zero fucks about how that suit looked. It permanently cured me of any belief that just wearing suit amounted in any way dressing well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> > His prediction was that everyone would dress in uniforms. But that's the > complete opposite of what has happened. And I don't think people will be > dressing in uniforms anytime soon.

OK, here's a potential prediction that could bring about "uniforms"...

If we end up with some kind of ubiquitous augmented reality, we may end up styling ourselves like you would a game avatar, and even "themeing" everyone around us. In that world, it might make more sense to just all wear comfy grey onezies all day.

Of course all predictions like this are hilariously off... it'll probably be more like the entire earth bizarrely becomes a comfortable 23C and everyone just walks around in socks.

<comment><USER26> Last weekend there was a man in a green onesie with a yellow unicorn tusk at a bar, so it may be a continuation of the theme. Certainly stood out, but not only because of the outfit; Self-cleaning clothing can't arrive soon enough.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I see no mention of climate (the U.S. is mostly hotter than Europe) and shifting demographics towards the Southwest (where it's hotter).

Even in these comments, there are observations contrasting more formal NYC with more casual southern and west coast cities. Makes sense to me. Even in slightly more formal southern towns like Dallas and Atlanta, there is a lot of new growth and new transplants from the north and east.

</comment><comment><USER28> Has the dress code just changed to 'casual'? This may not be some fundamental shift in people and what they care about. Its just a change in the details of current fashion.

</comment><comment><USER29> Who the hell _wants_ to get gussied up in non-functional, expensive, uncomfortable clothes, if it is not necessary? Give me cheap, durable, and comfortable any day of the week.

Thankfully, I can wear my steel-toe boots, Carharts and flannel to work, and nobody cares. Why would they? I'm a programmer that sits in my office most of the time, and, except for trade-shows, any interactions I have with customers are on the phone or email.

<comment><USER30> why do you need steel-toed boots in an office? the only time i've seen that is at construction or engineering firms where office workers occasionally have to go into the field/job site.

<comment><USER29> They are very comfortable, with good ankle support. Also well insulated, for the five months out of the year when it is below freezing or snowy.

I also don't see the point in spending the money on another pair of "fancy" boots, which are generally not very well constructed, or fitted to my feet, when I have these[1], which are tough-as-nails and reasonably good-looking if you keep them clean and use a little polish once in a while.

Yeah, they are kevlar-lined chainsaw boots - I actually use a chainsaw on a regular basis, and having a real pair of safety boots is pretty much the absolute minimum level of safety equipment. Even if you know what you are doing and are careful, you can fetch up on something and the saw can kick back. Chainsaw cuts are extremely nasty.

[1] [http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel- Chain...](http://www.labonville.com/Labonville-Kevlar-1-Low-Heel-Chainsaw- Safety-Steel-Box-Toe-Boot-Made-In-The-USA--24127_p_248.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Just a little comment. America is not only USA.

<comment><USER32> Most of the world goes by the definition that "America" means "USA" in this context. There may be other definitions of "America," but they are not the most popular across the world in this context.</comment></comment>


Man able to view ultraviolet light after eye surgery - <AUTHOR> http://www.komar.org/faq/colorado-cataract-surgery-crystalens/ultra-violet-color-glow/

<comment><USER2> The painter Monet had cataract surgery near the end of his life, which removed the lens from one eye entirely and allowed him to see ultraviolet light. He continued to paint, and his renditions of white flowers became blue-tinted.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is very cool. Any chance humanity will gradually evolve into being able to see UV light and other wavelengths? Well, one is allowed to dream.

<comment><AUTHOR> There is no significant evolutionary advantage (for humans) to seeing UV light, so it will, at best, be a rare instance, if it's even genetically possible for something like that to happen.

Any advantages there may be gained from this will just be provided by an external set of glasses or visors.

Maybe Google Glass will provide something like this in 20 years, but otherwise, I highly doubt it.

<comment><USER4> > Maybe Google Glass will provide something like this in 20 years, but > otherwise,

Oh god, I'd kill for a real set of augmented goggles. By augmented I don't mean ads over my field of vision, I mean like the ability to see magnetic lines, or any range of photon radiation or ability to zoom in and take picture of far away objects.</comment></comment></comment>


[UK] Post code data to be free in 2010 - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8402327.stm

<comment><USER2> At FOWA a few months ago, the Ordanance Survey (a taxpayer funded organization that handles postcode and general surveying in the UK) had a stand asking people to pay the typical exhorbitant amount of money (a few hundred pounds a year) to access the data their taxes already paid for.

Pretty much everyone at the conference doing anything in the geo space was using the 100MB file that gets uploaded to wikileaks every few weeks instead.

<comment><USER3> Taxpayers don't pay directly for the Ordnance Survey.

"It is a separate government department that is now financed through data licensing rather than direct funding from the tax payer"

[http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/media/features/tra...](http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/media/features/tradingfund.html)

Having said that, public sector organisations licence data like everyone else, and that money does come from the taxpayer. However, if the Ordnance Survey were a private company then this situation would be the same.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is great news! You could ask "What's taken so long?" but that would be sour grapes. Guess we no longer need <http://freethepostcode.org/> now though.

<comment><USER5> Let's not count our chickens before they hatch:

 _"Harry Metcalfe, who helped sites get at postcode data, said he was "cautiously optimistic" about the decision to open up the OS data sets. "The 'how' is terribly important, quite easily the difference between a fantastic data release and a waste of time," he said. He said it would "possibly" be enough to help websites that want to use postcode data. "Maybe probably." he said. "It will be if it's done right."_

<comment><USER5> And it looks like the Post Office has already clarified that the PAF data (the stuff that lets you go quickly from a postcode to a customer's address) will remain closed:

[http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/2009/12/postcodes-to- be-f...](http://www.freeourdata.org.uk/blog/2009/12/postcodes-to-be-free-but- which-ones/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've always wondered how forms have managed to get my address through my post code. It will be great to play with this data once it is available.

</comment><comment><USER7> news.ycombinator.com/item?id=981000

news.ycombinator.com/item?id=985599</comment>


How I Got Started at Airbnb - <AUTHOR> http://nerds.airbnb.com/how-i-got-started-at-airbnb/

<comment><USER2> The page does not load.

<comment><USER3> Works for me, what are you seeing?

<comment><USER2> now it works. strange.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm balding and wish I had Mike Lewis hair.</comment>


Show HN: DEVOPly Docker WordPress Control Panel - <AUTHOR> https://www.devoply.com/ <comment><USER2> How are you planning on monetizing this? (What I'm really asking here is: why is this free and how do you plan on still being around in 6 months?)

<comment><AUTHOR> Business model is more or less freemium at this point. Considering doing a crowdfunding campaign to make a community open source version as well.</comment></comment>


Trolling My Kids with a Broken Phone App I Made (and how I made it) - <AUTHOR> https://coursetro.com/posts/code/44/How-to-Make-an-App-to-Troll-your-Friends <comment><USER2> LOL! This is the best tutorial I've seen! This one is good also: [https://www.liveedu.tv/thatbrownguy/videos/R4exn-learn- how-t...](https://www.liveedu.tv/thatbrownguy/videos/R4exn-learn-how-to-build- android-apps)</comment>


Ask HN: Is self promotion allowed here? - <AUTHOR> I'm here to ask is self promotion allowed here? I mean can I share news from my website? <comment><USER2> HN is a great site to attempt to gain exposure and new subscribers.

I understand why someone would choose to post their content here, despite my other comments railing against self-promoters.

If you make it to the front page you will gain a great SEO boost simply due to the new links that pop up on dozens of HN copy-cats that exist elsewhere[0]

So, I say go for it if you have content that you want to share!

[0]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21092890](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21092890)

</comment><comment><USER3> See [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER4> Specifically:

 _Please don 't use HN primarily for promotion. It's ok to submit your own stuff occasionally, but the primary use of the site should be for curiosity._

I think the key word is "primarily". From what I've seen over the years here on HN, a certain measure of self-promotion is totally fine and even expected. But it's not considered cool to spam the site with your own self-promotional stuff all the time.

<comment><USER5> Simply saying:

Use Show HN: [https://news.ycombinator.com/show](https://news.ycombinator.com/show)

Here are the rules for Show HN rules: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)

Good luck.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think so yes, and if you are building something cool, then you can use Show HN so it goes under the 'show' category.

<comment><AUTHOR> If my site is technology based, will I be allowed to share news here?

<comment><USER4> My personal, subjective, non-official interpretation, based on my experience here over the years:

If you're submitting (a) link(s) to your own stuff everyday, it's probably going to raise eyebrows. If you submit your own stuff once a week, it's probably going to raise eyebrows. If you're submitting your own stuff once a month, I doubt anybody would much notice or care. If you're submitting your own stuff once every couple of months or so, you're probably fine.

Again, totally non-official, but I think that's a useful approximation.

<comment><USER2> I'd like to add to this.

> If you submit your own stuff once a week, it's probably going to raise > eyebrows.

I browse /new frequently and come across self-promoting accounts _constantly_ [0]. It may depend on dang having time to remove these submissions and other users to flag them.

[0]: As an example, I came across this user yesterday: [https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=aogl](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=aogl) there are plenty of others who do this as well

<comment><USER7> That example is in the border, but it's not annoying enough and can fly under the radar. I'd not be surprised if it get's banned eventually.

* Once every two days, so people don't remember.

* Not exact repost, so people don't remember.

* The post are too short, but not completely off-topic.

* Not obvious suckpuppets or similar activity.

Note that this is not a foolproof recipe. As I said before, it's not annoying enough and can fly under the radar. I'd not be surprised if it get's banned eventually.

<comment><USER2> I agree with each of your bullet points.

There is quite a bit of good content that never makes it to the front page. Having less muck to sift through would be nice :) however, this is just a symptom of HN steadily growing more popular...</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Firefox disabled WebP in version 66 - <AUTHOR> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1544231 <comment><USER2> Incorrect title. Correct title would be "Firefox removed 'image/webp' from Accept header, causing unintended side-effects".

<comment><USER3> Further, the removal doesn't _yet_ seem to have been confirmed as intentional. Make sure to read the linked bugs too.</comment></comment>


OpenOffice: Worth $21 Million Per Day, If It Were Microsoft Office - <AUTHOR> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/02/12/1753224/openoffice-worth-21-million-per-day-if-it-were-microsoft-office <comment><USER2> Yes, and if a Chevy Malibu could be sold for what BMW 5 series sells for then GM wouldn't have gone bankrupt. Also like the 'street value' of drugs quoted by cops, no one _ever_ pays retail for MS Office so the number is even more meaningless.

I'm really not sure what this savings number means because for anyone who uses office to make money open office is most certainly not equivalent to MS Office. You only save money with open office is your needs are very limited, your time is worth nothing, and everyone you might ever send a document to is also using OpenOffice.

I'd gladly pay $150 for MS Office just so my documents are readable. Yes, I know that if only everyone switched to OpenOffice etc than all would be well, but the problem is people who write big cheques use MS Office, therefore if your document looks like shit and a competitors looks good you don't get cut a big cheque.

<comment><USER3>
      "You only save money with open office is your needs are very
      limited, your time is worth nothing, and everyone you might
      ever send a document to is also using OpenOffice."

You do make some good points, but this sentence doesn't fit at all. There are quite a few scenarios where LibreOffice can be a $$$-saver, and it certainly doesn't require your time to be "worth nothing".

<comment><USER2> For sure it's a bit of hyperbole, but I think its essentially true.

Lets say you make min wage, or $10/hour...

Lets say Open Office costs you 5 minutes per day in horrible interface, making docs work with office, etc.

Lets say MS Office actually costs $150...

      ($150 / ($10 / hour)) / (5 minutes) = 180 days

Basically after 1 year you've paid for MS Office.

<comment><USER4> The quality and compatibility of Open Office has improved a lot since it's inception. So what you're advocating is a sliding scale of value which is reasonable.

What you have not included is the TCO for MS Office which includes a lot of the same things like UI issues, work lost due to crashes, compatibility with other services (including Google docs), etc.

Open source often lags behind, but it gets better over time and also often exceeds closed-source equivalents.

<comment><USER5> I'm no MS fanboy. I have eight computers in my apartment. Exactly one runs a Microsoft OS, and it has an XBOX logo on its DVD drive.

OpenOffice and LibreOffice come absolutely nowhere _close_ to Microsoft Office in functionality, speed, UI, interoperability, customizability, or anything else. Since there's a pile of posts on the front page right now about how Excel is supposed to stink for business apps, let's turn to the logical alternative for trivial-to-create internal applications: Access. To which the Libre/OpenOffice alternative would be...okay, I guess Base? But is this thing a front-end to existing database systems, or is it its own database system? HSQL seems like the default; can I email this around? Why are the functions with this different than with the one Greg made that isn't on HSQL? And how do I script this, exactly? I'm used to VBA; can I use Python? Looks like maybe I can from my Ubuntu laptop, but then the guy down the hall on the Windows box can't?

I could've pulled up similar examples from the word processor or the spreadsheet. LibreOffice Pivot Tables (formerly called something like Data Navigator or Data Pilot) are slower, vastly harder to use, and horribly underfeatured compared to Excel's Pivot Tables. The layout quality of LibreOffice's word processor compared to Word's is almost as bad as Word's to TeX's, which unfortunately also translates to the presentation module, making it easy for me to see from a mile away whether someone used Keynote, PowerPoint, a custom HTML/CSS solution, or LibreOffice.

Open source improves, but ultimately, non-commercially-backed open-source improves in ways that make the _developers_ ' lives more interesting. You're looking at something that people work on in their spare time. If it's not scratching an itch, then why bother? And a lot of the user niceties that come in Microsoft Office are not things people want to work on in their spare time, because you or I, faced with a pivot table problem, will instead write a Python script, skipping the office suite entirely in the first place.

If you don't need MS Office, great. More power to you. And there are _many_ people who do not, so you've got good company. If you _do_ need MS Office, then LibreOffice is a horrid substitute.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Ah, another open-office thread. I'm always amazed at the quantity of people that show up on these to piss all over what is a pretty amazing project.

Granted, OpenOffice may well never surpass MS Office, but to even be playing in the same league is a victory of sorts, given the incredible disparity of resources behind both projects.

And for your average person writing a letter, trying to calculate something with a spreadsheet, or put together a simple presentation, they absolutely are in the same league.

For me, OpenOffice wins hands down, because it runs on Linux, which is the OS I choose to use, and is much more versatile and repurposable, being open source. I use bits of it for LiberWriter.

<comment><USER7> Could you explain what about Open Office makes it a pretty amazing project?

The entire mission of the Open Office suite seems to be to copy Microsoft Office as much as possible. It isn't trying to change the way people think about document editing, or provide more meaningful ways to express ideas. Microsoft created Visio, so let's go make Draw. What is the point? What value does recreating successfully developed and supported applications provide?

<comment><USER8> You make it sound like rewriting MS Office is a bad thing. At its core, MS Office is a very solid piece of software, so why spend resources and divert focus to try to improve on something Microsoft has already made near-perfect? And rewriting it under the GPL license (so it's free) adds value to the project as well. Not to mention that by rewriting it, you make it easy for people to pick up your project easily.

<comment><USER7> Microsoft hasn't made Office perfect, that is the point. Why is Open Office spending all of their considerable resources on mere copying, instead of producing something valuable all of their own?

Open Office is inferior to Microsoft Office because their mission is to be Microsoft Office, rather than to surpass it. They can never be a perfect copy.

<comment><USER8> Saying that Open Office isn't as good as MS Office because it's trying to imitate them is a very ambitious statement. Especially considering that the developer base for the two are different in many respects.

More importantly, let's say that Open Office does try to blaze a trail to an extent that you mention. I would wager that it would probably come out like Blender, where Blender tried to make the ideal 3D creation toolkit (compared to say Maya). Blender's great! It's very powerful, it can do ALL kinds of things. However, before the v2.5 UI overhaul it was incredibly goddamn hard to learn and so it was only useful to a small section of their potential interested users.

By avoiding this, Open Office tries to cater to what people are familiar with so they can use it right after installing it. They don't have to waste time trying to adapt to a new piece of software.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is typical RIAA/MPAA accounting logic in action.

If OpenOffice cost actual money, it'd be probably worth somewhere about zero because nobody would use it.

<comment> iso-8859-1 There are always people that will mistakenly pay for something they don't have to pay for. See <http://flightprosim.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Does the downloads number include people who pulled it out of the Ubuntu repo? People who got it preinstalled with their distro? What about people upgrading from one version to the next?

</comment><comment><USER8> (This should be obvious without saying it.)

As the first commend on /. mentions, there's no point in trying to make an accurate estimate of a free piece of software's worth because it's FREE. Everyone that is interested will download it, but you can't tack on a competitor's value to that download because they didn't pay for the download.

</comment><comment><USER11> Some sincerely hopeful numbers there.

</comment><comment><USER12> Question: is 21*365=7665 smaller or greater than MS Office revenue?

</comment><comment><USER13> I wouldn't spend 5$ on OpenOffice!</comment>


Desert Island HN Discs - <AUTHOR>

The BBC has a programme called "Desert Island Discs" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Island_Discs) where a well known person is asked to choose 8 pieces of music, a book and a 'luxury item' that they'd select if they were marooned on a desert island.
If I were such a person I'd take Horowitz and Hill's Art of Electronics (I won't bore you with the musical choices).
What would you take? And what would you want to listen to? <comment><USER2> How would you build any electronics on a desert island? Seems odd to me. It's like bringing TAOCP without a computer.

I'd give up any luxury (probably a guitar) just for a big stack of 8.5x11" and some pens. The Count of Monte Cristo would be good, but I'd rather take Infinite Jest. Electric Ladyland, In the Aeroplane, Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5 (I can't believe anyone would want Ode to Joy), and all the Gorillaz records.

</comment><comment><USER3> led zeppelin</comment>


The People's Code - <AUTHOR> https://code.gov/#/ <comment><USER2> I really like the work of folks at 18F, USDS, CFPB, et al.

Bearing in mind that I'm ecstatic to see this collection of projects and someone clearly put a lot of time and effort into this already, I do have couple points of hopefully constructive feedback here:

\- Please list all of your repositories and feature ones that you think deserve special recognition. Seeing all your repos is a 4-step process otherwise: click on the project, click on the link, click on the acknowledgement that I clicked a link, click on the organization name on GitHub. [1]

\- Some information on contribution policies, pulling in your README.md, etc would be helpful on this site. [2]

\- When I click on the link to go to your repo, I know I'm clicking a link that leaves your site. You even say so. "But you probably knew that already." Don't hijack it, please. [3]

\- The activity feed doesn't provide much value in its current form. Most of these GitHub events are completely without context. [4]

EDIT:

I've since opened the following issues on [https://github.com/presidential- innovation-fellows/code-gov-...](https://github.com/presidential-innovation- fellows/code-gov-web/issues). Anyone who has feedback, definitely let them know (kindly!).

[1] [https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code- gov-...](https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code-gov- web/issues/125)

[2] [https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code- gov-...](https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code-gov- web/issues/124)

[3] [https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code- gov-...](https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code-gov- web/issues/123)

[4] [https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code- gov-...](https://github.com/presidential-innovation-fellows/code-gov- web/issues/122)

<comment><USER3> I'm impressed with how quickly they responded to [3], but unfortunately the answer was exactly what I expected on this one.

> We fought the law and the law won unfortunately. We're hoping to get more > leeway on this in the near future from the legal team. Stay tuned!

Lawyers. The answer is always lawyers.

<comment><USER4> Getting a quote from The Clash from the US Government, that's actually pretty awesome.

<comment><USER5> The Clash?

<comment><USER6> The Clash.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsS0cvTxU-8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsS0cvTxU-8)

<comment> pokemon-trainer "I Fought the Law" is a song written by Sonny Curtis of the Crickets and popularized by a remake by the Bobby Fuller Four, which went on to become a top-ten hit for the band in 1966 and was also recorded by the Clash in 1979.

<comment><USER4> Yes indeed you're correct. Another nice theory of mine ruined by actual evidence. I'm still hoping that the guy making the comment got it from The Clash though, just cause I'm biased towards them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I admire the work that 18F is doing, and live in the DC area, even contracted for the government early in my career -- but I can never go back. I just fundamentally disagree with the security clearance apparatus is in place and never want to subject myself to that again. Especially when purely private companies pay more and don't care what you do in your personal time.

Working for the government felt like being a child again.

<comment><USER8> What was so bad about the security clearance aspect?

<comment><USER7> They want to know deeply personal details about your life, show up at your neighbour's and friends doors to question them, have explicit control over where you can travel on your vacation, deeply care about what you do in your free time, and mishandled all of it -- all in the vague guise of preventing blackmail and sabotage.

The blackmail and sabotage argument, as near as I can tell, is a farce because our enemies and "friends" are engaged in massive corporate espionage. If it were a real concern to them than they would use thier powers to require the same level of scrutiny on the private sector.

In addition to that they say be truthful so you don't have anything to hide to prevent possible blackmail by foreign powers, but in reality it's the truthful ones who don't make it through the process.

I've come to the conclusion that it's really just about having an excuse deny employment to "people not like us."

<comment><USER9> Its pretty backwards if you think about it, if the places you go or people you know or mistakes you make, can easily make you lose your security clearance and therefore your career could be ruined, it makes you much easier to blackmail than under a system that was more laissez-faire

<comment><USER10> Hmmm... If that were true we'd have lots of empirical evidence, so I'd like to see some link to that.

<comment><USER11> > we'd have lots of empirical evidence

That assumes there would be many attempts at this kind of blackmail, and that any attempts that did occur were discovered and documented.

> I'd like to see some link to that.

Even if the conditions above were satisfied (which I find highly unlikely), this assumes that we (the public) have access to the documentation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> How about open source code for some makes and models of voting machine?

The US Veterans' Administration health records software system is in the public domain. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistA#Licensing_and_disseminat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistA#Licensing_and_dissemination) But it's not listed here. (It's also kind of complex. "wget; tar x; ./configure ; make" probably won't get you a running instance. Still.

<comment><USER13> Voting machines are products produced by private firms. Getting them to publish the source code is about as likely as getting Apple to publish the source for iOS.

<comment><USER14> Actually, with monopsony it's rather simple:

"If you don't publish the code, then we will have to use paper ballots."

<comment><USER15> No effort towards innovation would then go into that sector. Ever again.

<comment><USER16> I'm not sure if this it's a popular decision, but I don't really think the private sector should be innovating with our electoral system. Integrity is of utmost importance, and voting machines have been proven vulnerable in the past. I don't think the private sector has appropriate motivation to really get voting right.

<comment><USER17> The difficulty is the purse strings to pay for election infrastructure comes from politicians. Private firms have funds for product advocacy without advance funding from government, unlike open source solutions. So the entire field is distorted from day 0 when it comes to proprietary vs open source.

A smarter thing to do would be to create a selection pool defined as any registered voter over the age of 75; and from that pool they choose their election technology board. And that board procures the election system based on the budget the legislature gives them. That is, the budget is the budget only, it doesn't say anything about what technology or brand is used, the only attachment is that funds are used for the state election system. If someone over 75 can't understand how our election system works, we're screwed, and in fact we've seen how voting systems have failed, have altered the outcome of elections, and because they had no paper trail, and no meaningful way to do recounts or audits there's no recourse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> [https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93...](https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=unserialize)

[https://github.com/USEPA/E-Enterprise- Portal/search?utf8=%E2...](https://github.com/USEPA/E-Enterprise- Portal/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=unserialize)

Looks like the US Government is oblivious to the risk of PHP Object Injection.

[https://paragonie.com/blog/2016/04/securely-implementing- de-...](https://paragonie.com/blog/2016/04/securely-implementing-de- serialization-in-php)

It looks like they're publishing code that, in particular, is vulnerable to CVE-2015-2171.

[https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/blob/d3e137294179e392...](https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/blob/d3e137294179e392321265567b6ad32ffe738c5f/Slim/Middleware/SessionCookie.php#L127)

<comment><USER19> You should send in a pull request, or file a bug report in the repo.

<comment><USER18> I'm not on their payroll, and I'd already fixed the CVE upstream _over a year ago_ , so no.

<comment><USER19> You took the time to go search through those repos, and then took the time to come here and point out your findings.

You could have easily just copy pasted what you wrote here into an Issue on those repos.

It would have helped out your government, made these projects a tad bit better, and taught a few developers something they'll remember in the future when they write more software for the government.

It's part of the "spirit" if you will. Let's support these efforts - they're long overdue and difficult enough to get done for those few trying.

<comment><USER20> Reporting issues to a vendor takes a _hell_ of a lot of effort and time compared to idly posting them in a comment thread.

This is like those remarks along the lines of "it only takes 5 minutes to submit a patch to the documentation". No, it doesn't - it takes 5 minutes to _write_ it and create a PR, and usually two hours to defend it from the maintainer's criticisms.

<comment><USER21> >usually two hours to defend it from the maintainer's criticisms

Isn't that what we want, though? Discussion and review, particularly with the people who are most familiar with the project (the maintainers) is what makes software better, not worse. If you're not willing to do that then why comment on issues you find in open source projects at all, other than to stroke your own ego?

<comment><USER18> > Isn't that what we want, though?

Generally. But on the other hand, no, this isn't a monoculture, where everyone wants the same exact thing.

> Discussion and review, particularly with the people who are most familiar > with the project (the maintainers) is what makes software better, not worse.

Tell that to vim: [https://github.com/vim/vim/issues/638](https://github.com/vim/vim/issues/638)

Tell that to node.js: [https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/5798](https://github.com/nodejs/node/issues/5798)

Tell that to WordPress: [https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/21022](https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/21022) [https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/25052](https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/25052) etc.

Despite all of the time that industry experts have contributed towards identifying and discussing security problems, these projects have severe _inertia_ in the security realm.

How much more time do you want us to carve out of our lives for projects that won't fix their problems?

> If you're not willing to do that then why comment on issues you find in open > source projects at all, other than to stroke your own ego?

I don't like the way this is framed. It's a hidden false dichotomy.

<comment><USER21> I don't disagree with your or joepie91_'s points in that many (maybe most) open source project maintainers are perhaps more guarded and difficult in accepting contributions than they should be.

That said, even if you submit a pull request or an issue ticket and the maintainer doesn't follow up, or is making the issue unnecessarily complicated to resolve formally and merge into the main branch, at least the record of your findings is there attached to the repo as a rejected pull request or a closed issue ticket, and that can help someone who comes along after the fact who maybe experienced the same issue you did and can benefit from your comments. Maybe that same person who comes along later _will_ have the time to fight for having the changes merged, and can use your comments as further evidence that the issue is worth reconsidering.

I stand by the idea that finding the issue, but posting it on an unrelated forum (like HN) instead of attaching it to the project itself serves no purpose than to tell others who are probably not even users of the open source code "look at this problem I found/solved, aren't I great?"

<comment><USER18> In this case: I did, and it was immediately closed without any change to the code, documentation, process, or culture.

<comment><USER19> > In this case: I did, and it was immediately closed without any change to the > code, documentation, process, or culture.

You left out the part where they told you this perceived issue did not impact their codebase, due to how they were using the upstream project you cited.[1]

> While this is an issue it does not affect us as we aren't using session > cookies with slim

You then started to rant about how they don't update their dependencies "quick enough".

[1] [https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/issues/837](https://github.com/samilliken/openDCIM/issues/837)

<comment><USER20> > You left out the part where they told you this perceived issue did not > impact their codebase, due to how they were using the upstream project you > cited.

This is _completely_ irrelevant. Vulnerable dependencies are vulnerable dependencies, and trying to avoid updates because you're "not affected" is a really good way to get owned.

This is for the exact same reason that "yes, there's an XSS vulnerability in the admin panel, but that doesn't matter because it requires an admin login" is invalid. At _some_ point, somebody is going to combine multiple "unexploitable" vulnerabilities or exploitation paths that you overlooked, and successfully compromise your system.

A vulnerable dependency means that you need to update that dependency, full stop. No exceptions.

<comment><USER19> Whether it's relevant or not is up for the project maintainer to decide. All anyone can do is point out what they perceive as a potential problem, and then let the others take it from there.

CiPHPerCoder didn't exactly do that. He came out guns ablaze from the start, using bolded text, italics and inflammatory phrasing - basically just stopping short of calling the project maintainer a complete idiot.

It's not surprising CiPHPerCoder got the reaction he did - it is, however, surprising he decided to do all this under his company's name.

It's almost like CiPHPerCoder is personally offended that some joe random developer hasn't heard about some obscure CVE CiPHPerCoder was involved with, or that they didn't handle it like he would like. "Do you know who I am!?"

The initial issue was he came here and ranted about it, instead of pointing it out to the projects. Eventually he "gave in" and reported it to a single project, but took this holier-than-thou tone and was aggressive the entire time. That's ridiculous.

<comment><USER18> > It's almost like CiPHPerCoder is personally offended that some joe random > developer hasn't heard about some obscure CVE CiPHPerCoder was involved > with, or that they didn't handle it like he would like. "Do you know who I > am!?"

Except this isn't "some joe random developer", this is software created by and for the US government, which is featured on code.gov.

I'd expect them to take security seriously and apply all upstream security patches immediately, not sit on them for years after they've been resolved.

Anything but that is sheer negligence. What _else_ hasn't been updated which contains vulnerabilities that _do_ affect them?

> The initial issue was he came here and ranted about it, instead of pointing > it out to the projects.

That's what joepie91 was trying to explain to you.

> Eventually he "gave in" and reported it to a single project, but took this > holier-than-thou tone and was aggressive the entire time. That's ridiculous.

Would you rather I do that or not report it to them at all? Choose only one. If I'm going to do it, I'm not going to do it your way. You can if you want.

Personally, I'd rather not report bugs at all. Until you've reported vulnerabilities to two or three dozen different projects, this might not mean much, but: _It burns you out to keep reporting the same flaws to different projects._

Having developers respond to security risks with an air of entitlement just turns up the heat on the burn-out engine.

The first response to my comment here was

      You should send in a pull request, or file a bug report in the repo.

Pay attention to the _order of operations_ here. The "should" is immediately associated with a large amount of unpaid work, with an alternative that would also be a large amount of unpaid work disguised as a hypothetically smaller amount of effort. But as others have stated: It's not.

> It's not surprising CiPHPerCoder got the reaction he did - it is, however, > surprising he decided to do all this under his company's name.

Even if I had remembered to switch Github accounts, people would still associate it with my employer anyway. Kind of a moot point, really.

I gave you what you asked for. Next time, maybe don't tell people what they should do? It's rude to bark orders like that, and it won't get the result you want.

<comment><USER19> Perhaps if you didn't act like a jackass when reporting bugs, you'd have better interactions, and get less of the "burn out" feeling you're describing.

And next time you decide to put on a show, consider not doing it under your company name.

You're forgetting this arrogant display is here for all to witness, including folks who may (or may not, now) want to contract your company in the future. You also seem to forget the very folks behind code.gov are the same ones that influence who gets contracted with the government...

The people working on code.gov and all of the repositories are truly doing something great. Code has been in the federal government for at least 60 years, probably longer - and this is the first time something like code.gov has been produced. It's an amazing effort, and it's surely not easy to effect change like this at the federal level.

The open source initiative will help increase code quality at the federal level, as well as encourage less duplication of efforts (different agencies likely solve similar or the same problems very often). It also encourages a baseline standard of code and organization. This is a fantastic beginning!

Next time, a simple "Hey, did you guys know about CVE-2015-2171? You may have some vulnerabilities." is all that's needed. Instead, you let everyone know you were in a fit of rage - how dare someone suggest you comment on an issue you brought up!

We need to encourage and support these efforts, not shit all over them.

In short, don't be an ass... please.

<comment><USER18> > You're forgetting this arrogant display is here for all to witness, > including folks who may (or may not, now) want to contract your company in > the future. You also seem to forget the very folks behind code.gov are the > same ones that influence who gets contracted with the government...

If you base your "security talent" hiring decisions the same way you approach "contract customer service representative decisions, you'll end up with very pleasant people who don't know jack shit about security. Which would explain a lot of the results we're seeing. So you might be right.

If anyone is reading this thread and wants their software to be _actually_ secure-- no sugar-coating or letting bad decisions happen-- get in touch. :)

> The people working on code.gov and all of the repositories are truly doing > something great. Code has been in the federal government for at least 60 > years, probably longer - and this is the first time something like code.gov > has been produced. It's an amazing effort, and it's surely not easy to > effect change like this at the federal level.

For once, we are in agreement.

> Next time, a simple "Hey, did you guys know about CVE-2015-2171? You may > have some vulnerabilities." is all that's needed.

OK, why didn't you do that then?

It's so easy to tell others what to do, when you have no skin in the game. What will you do next time?

      - Tell the other person what to do.
      - Do it yourself, because it clearly matters to you.

> We need to encourage and support these efforts, not shit all over them.

> In short, don't be an ass... please.

I won't be an ass if and only if folks aren't making demands of how I spend my leisure time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This is a great idea. I feel like the big picture isn't open source code for government, but open source APIs for interacting with the government. In the medium-term future, I think we should push for a system where all government documents that ought to be a matter of public record are managed in a publicly readable versioned source repository like, like a federal git server.

Other things that I'd like to see in publicly visible git repositories:

\- federal laws and regulations (particularly regulations, standards, etc.).

\- procedures (rules for federal processes)

\- all documents for making requests of the federal government, with mechanisms for getting those requests to the right place.

<comment><USER10> Absolutely![0]

[0] I know this doesn't contribute to the conversation and is frowned upon, but I had to exclaim when I read this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Why the subsidy to Google? Sending tracking data to Google isn't appropriate for a government site.

        <script>
          /* i='GTM-M9L9Q5' */
          /* ... */
          src='https://www.googletagmanager.com/gtm.js?id='+i
          /* ... */
        </script>
        <!-- ... -->
        <noscript>
          <iframe src="https://www.googletagmanager.com/ns.html
                       ?id=GTM-M9L9Q5&gtm_auth=GTM-M9L9Q5"
                  height="0" width="0"
                  style="display:none;visibility:hidden">
          </iframe>
        </noscript>

Also, requiring Javascript in a single page application is a terrible design for this kind of site. Almost all of this can be static pages or traditional web frameworks. Requiring Javascript made the download much larger than necessary, slowed down the page load time a lot, and forced the page to reflow multiple times as the data arrived. A wide variety of web frameworks could have rendered and cached static pages instead of massively over-engineering the site as an "app".

<comment><USER23> Just a wild guess here, but I bet they're using Google Analytics for the same reason everyone else uses Google Analytics--to see what their audience is looking at.

> Also, requiring Javascript in a single page application is a terrible design > for this kind of site.

Good luck making a single page application without Javascript! It is all in 25 requests and 668KB, not the lightest site, but that's actually less data than the homepage of Google is today. It's also properly setting expires headers so future page loads are very quick.

<comment><USER11> I know why they want analytics; I'm asking why they are giving out live tracking data to a single private company. This free data is effectively a subsidy.

> Good luck making a single page application without Javascript

The bad design decision was making it a single page application in the first place. This should be a static site, or very lightweight (and easily cached) framework.

> 25 requests and 668KB

That's an _obscene_ amount of bloat. This should be 3-5 requests not counting images, and 668kB is an order of magnitude too big.

> less data than the homepage of Google is today

Comparing against another massively over-engineered, bloated web page isn't particularly useful.

> expires headers

That's great, but it doesn't affect the initial download size or the memory/CPU usage in the user agent.

[https://vimeo.com/147806338](https://vimeo.com/147806338)

<comment><USER23> > I know why they want analytics; I'm asking why they are giving out live > tracking data to a single private company. This free data is effectively a > subsidy.

How is it a subsidy? They are getting the analytical data they want and are not having to pay anything for it. They could spend tons of time and money to build an analytics system, but that sounds like a waste of tax dollars. You'll also notice that their code is hosted on GitHub, is that a subsidy too?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> "The Federal Source Code Policy is designed to support reuse and public access to custom-developed Federal source code. It requires new custom-developed source code developed specifically by or for the Federal Government to be made available for sharing and re-use across all Federal agencies. It also includes an Open Source Pilot Program that requires agencies to release at least 20% of new custom-developed Federal source code to the public."

That's really nice, but I think the 20% is too little. It should be at least 50%. They could still keep a critical low percentage secret.

<comment><USER25> 20% is a LOT! Consider the amount of work it takes to open-source things. It's a huge step forward.

<comment><USER2> What do you think takes the most effort to make these projects open source? If this were the policy for all new projects, why would that be difficult?

<comment><USER25> There is a lot of internal resistance to open sourcing code. Lots of people believe that their code is their secret sauce - and why would you have highly paid consultants create code just so the next department can take it?

There's also security concerns to take into account - which I know someone will say is a good thing, because of transparency and so forth. But just realize that it's not a trivial amount of work to clean up a code-base and display it to the public all of the time.

And if the policy were open-source by default, the unspoken policy for project managers would be "automatically submitting a request to be closed source"

It's not perfect, but I know that 20% is a lot, and I think anyone who's worked in the sector would agree.

<comment><USER26> But isn't everything made by the government in the public domain?

<comment><USER27> Assuming that's true, private companies contracted by the government may not be under that same requirement (think military specs and designs). The output as a whole may be public domain (I know what an F22 is, and the parts to build one, but the specs to those parts are proprietary) but the operations, and binaries,(specs and requirements to build the individual pieces) to produce that output may remain private.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Took a look at some of the code.

I see one for Gov of Commerce:

The Commerce.gov API is under active, but not public, development. As such, API code is not currently made available publically. This Github repository will be used to collect and respond to feedback regarding the API and engage with developers interested in using the API.

\---

I don't believe that's the correct usage of GitHub. What's the point if you're not going to showcase the code?

<comment><USER29> They said what they think the point is in what you quoted: "to collect and respond to feedback..."

I can see why you might not like it, or not agree with it, but it's not like they didn't say it!

<comment><USER30> My feedback would be a FOIA request for commerce.gov's API code, and a PR to add it to their repo.

<comment><USER31> You can't make an FOIA request for code. You can only make requests for _agency records_ , and in the definitions section of the bill, computer code is explicitly listed as something that _isn 't_ an agency record.

"computer software, including source code, object code, and listings of source and object codes, regardless of medium are not agency records"

<comment><USER30> Works created by the federal government are in the public domain, per section 105 of the copyright code. So you'd be right I can't use a FOIA request to obtain the code, but if obtained through other methods, I believe I'm in the clear for hosting it on Github.

<comment><USER29> Basically, you're trying to figure out some way to piss off the techies and managers you want to convince to be more open? Even if FOIA worked on code, you really aren't helping your cause..

<comment><USER30> > you're trying to figure out some way to piss off the techies and managers

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, but to be honest, I don't really care if I do. I'm simply trying to pry government open into being more transparent through any means necessary.

> you want to convince to be more open

No. Not in the slightest. My opinion doesn't matter anywhere in government, so I'm left with the tools at my disposal.

> Even if FOIA worked on code, you really aren't helping your cause..

When the carrot doesn't work, one must use the stick.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> This is awesome! At work we're trying to help with this at the municiapl level, it's hard so it's really great to see it coming from the Fed. Shout out to Becky Sweger[1] from 18F who has been instrumental in helping move things forward, talking about open data and open code.

[1] [https://twitter.com/bendystraw](https://twitter.com/bendystraw)

</comment><comment><USER33> The one project that i would love to see opensource is the FBI Sentinel project.

A lot of countries have broken infrastructure for law enforcement. Just like USAID, it would probably be more efficient to give software that can be adopted.

The sentinel project captures millions of man hours of wasted... and ultimately successful product development - all focused towards law enforcement collaboration. It would be good to have that.

</comment><comment><USER34> If there's one thing that deserves a federal massive budget, it's this. If laws and regulations can be understood easily by software, we would remove so many problems the government creates. Complexity would be easier to manage, but also transparency would inherently breed simplicity.

<comment><USER35> Just for an example, HNR Block and other companies built on doing your taxes for you lobby the government to prevent simplification of the tax code, because they profit off its complexity.

The same applies to almost all law. The complexity does not exist without a reason - there is almost always some entity actively funding the continued obfuscation of law for profit.

So don't expect government to ever actively get simpler, because that would only benefit the outsiders rather than incumbents in the industries such laws affect, and those outsiders never have the capital to compete in lobbying and bribery.

<comment><USER14> The bigger influence on the tax code is the litany of deductions, which are lobbied for by the wealthy.

The value of a $100,000 deduction is worth $30,000 to a wealthy person, but probably around $1 for H&R block.

edit: fixed

<comment><USER36> It's worth more like $30,000. You only save the tax on the deduction, not the whole thing.

(and some deductions will of course be worth less than the tax; a $100,000 donation to the Red Cross costs $100,000 and doesn't have any financial return, so the $30,000 tax benefit there costs $70,000)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Most of the code looks fairly dull and single-purpose. Except NASA's code, as you may expect. Trick and OpenMCT both look at least interesting, and OpenMCT in particular could be used as the basis for many an interesting web-based project.

<comment><USER38> I've already seen OpenMCT integrated with Kerbal Space Program. It looks like a great platform for real-time sensor data visualization. I'd love to hook it into a drone and violate some FAA regulations :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> In case any code.gov website people are looking: there's an unfortunate bug: when the site is first loading on a slow network, you can see all the agency names and click them, but they all show text like "No repositories found." This made me think that this was a brand-new project that hadn't done anything yet.

Also, the little department logo images shouldn't have alt-text. That alt text of the department name overlays the actual text of the department name and just makes it even less accessible when the image isn't there.

(I suppose the lesson for web development in general is to test on a slow connection.)

</comment><comment><USER40> Why does this simple landing page have to be over 600K and require Javascript?

</comment><comment><USER41> I wonder how they will determine which open source projects are included at code.gov. For instance, I contribute to a few projects that are used within government for determining the economic impacts of fiscal policy, and the code is in the public domain. I'd love for them to be included at code.gov, but I'm not sure whether they meet the criteria.

<comment><USER42> The general guidelines are in the policy [0], linked from the launch announcement [1], but each agency's CIO is responsible for the particulars at their org. If it's not a new project post-August it won't contribute to the 20% so it might not be reviewed for release without someone suggesting it specifically, I would guess.

[0] [https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda/2016/m_16_21.pdf)

[1] [https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/08/08/peoples- code](https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/08/08/peoples-code)

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> is this page 508 compliant? I look to .gov to show some examples of accessibility

</comment><comment><USER44> This is a step in the right direction, a thank you to the people who helped make this possible.

</comment><comment><USER45> They already have some Swift projects [0], which I think is kind of cool. Not sure I would want to use code named "Bro" or "Conman" though. lol.

[0] [https://code.gov/#/explore-code/agencies/DOL](https://code.gov/#/explore- code/agencies/DOL) [1] [https://code.gov/#/explore- code/agencies/DOE](https://code.gov/#/explore-code/agencies/DOE)

<comment><USER37> Bro is actually already a widely used and incredibly popular piece of software. However, I don't think the main branch is developed by the US government, so this may be the DOE trying to dodge the law.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I suggest having a search feature across all repositories.

</comment><comment><USER47> How about open PACER?

<comment><USER29> That's a Judicial Branch screwup, not Executive Branch.

Check out the RECAP project. So far, that's the best we've got.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Just an honest question. Can I obtain some estimation of the capabilities of CS people working for the government by just reading all these code. Will I find here a glimpse of code beautifully designed and tailored to solve some really deep problem that require real intelligence?, can I use these code to learn how to code a big project?

</comment><comment><USER49> Apparently Github supports displaying STL models: [https://github.com/nasa/NASA-3D-Resources/blob/master/3D%20M...](https://github.com/nasa/NASA-3D-Resources/blob/master/3D%20Models/Cassini%20\(A\)/cassini.stl)

</comment><comment><USER50> Interesting that someone approved the communist reference (or that people didn't perceive that as a communist reference). It's not the 1980s anymore I guess.

<comment><USER51> Do you mean 'people's'? That would make 'the people's house' as a way to describe US executive mansions and legislature buildings communist references as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Where is the IRS code?

<comment><USER53> Under the Department of Commerce - unsurprisingly - there is nothing from IRS.

A bit more surprising and entirely missing from the list (no source code):

* Department of Education * Department of Health and Human Services * Department of Housing * Department of Interior * State Department * Department of Transportation

And not really expecting anything from: * Department of Defense * Department of Homeland Security

<comment><USER54> DHHS:

[https://github.com/HHS](https://github.com/HHS)

There are more if you know where to look. Some of the GitHub organizations are in their infancy, like NIAID's:

[https://github.com/niaid](https://github.com/niaid)

Others are only semi-public; these generally consist forks of software they use or private repos used for external collaboration.

I'm working on getting some of our stuff open-sourced. When it's written by contractors, the intellectual property rules can get complicated. Convincing a contractor to publish code their consultants wrote for a government project, no matter how minor, can be a tricky bit of advocacy. Sometimes they have really skewed ideas surrounding IP that must be overcome before this can happen. (Best case, our code will likely end up hosted by Internet2 or a similar foundation.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> I was kinda hoping to see some projects from the NSA. Noooope.

</comment><comment><USER56> This is awesome initiate by US Gov.

</comment><comment><USER57> Great so we all have access to useless software code.

</comment><comment><USER58> Looks like You Don't Have Javascript Enabled

Code.gov is built on the latest web technology using Javascript. To use Code.gov, please enable Javascript so we can share all of the wonderful open source projects the Federal Government has to offer.

<comment><USER59> I had to unblock third-party scripts to get anything other than an animated pixel-art gif of an American flag.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Horrible name - the Federal Government of the United States is not "the People".

<comment><USER61> And horrible domain name: How come `code.gov` is US-only? How come it's motto is "Help propel America's next breakthrough in innovation"? If this in not imperialism, I don;t know what is.

<comment><USER62> The gov TLD is US only. Other countries have their own, e.g. In the UK most government sites are under gov.uk.

<comment><USER61> > The gov TLD is US only.

And you think it is normal? Why not gov.us? The US are always giving lessons to the world, but do not even understand that we --the other parts of the world-- would like to have some minimal level of fairness.

<comment><USER63> > Why not gov.us?

Because creator privilege and because life is not fair.

<comment><USER61> Civilisation, development of human ethics, laws, all this stuff is our way to adjust for the unfairness of life. Also, back people did not invent our create the buses, was it right to let them seat in the back, when they where even allow to get in?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why the iPad will beat Android Tablets for Hospital Use - <AUTHOR> http://www.imedicalapps.com/2011/03/ipad-beat-android-tablets-hospital-medical-use/

<comment><USER2> I can't imagine the iPad winning in the long run.

There will eventually be Android tablets that are much much cheaper than iPads. There are vastly more java programmers than there are Objective C programmers.

Due to the way the ecosystems are set up, Android will always advance at a much faster, although more chaotic, pace than Apple.

Fragmentation? See Apple II vs PC clones all over again. Fragmentation is a silly argument. End users don't care. They just want something cheap that works.</comment>


Thanks to the ZenBook, I'm no longer recommending MacBooks - <AUTHOR> http://www.osnews.com/story/25746/Thanks_to_the_ZenBook_I_m_no_longer_recommending_MacBooks

<comment><USER2> Which is not surprising, since the guy has been on an anti-Apple crusade for years now. As usual, there is not much substance to his rants.

I would rather like to see a _real review_ that takes both laptops apart, compares the quality of components, benchmarks both laptops properly, etc.

Without a proper comparison this is not more newsworthy than a comment...

</comment><comment><USER3> He historically recommended macbooks because OSX was better. Having non-power users switch OS just doesn't seem like a very friendly recommendation to me. Maybe OSX is better, but it just isn't that better (FTFF).

My reason for preferring a macbook has always been about the hardware. Much better trackpads (only a few of the newest utlrabooks seem to have have finally gotten it right..in 2012), higher quality build, and I love the command-key (granted, this is largely due to OSX and how consistently it's used).

They simply make it more efficient to use a small form factor.

<comment><USER4> The MacBooks are stellar Windows laptops. Apple's Windows drivers are quite good. I do curse the placement of the control key on a daily basis, but it's a price I'm willing to pay.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> "When Windows 7 was released, one major advantage of Apple laptops - a better operating system - vanished."

Seriously?

<comment><USER4> Seriously.

Windows 7 is as good as OSX. Not the same, and it has its own weaknesses and foibles, meaning that it might not be as good an operating system for you, but for most users they're interchangeable quality wise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> First rule of "hackers" - you do not recommend macbooks.</comment>


Weebly (YC 07) Launches New Managed Product For Educators And Students - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/30/weebly-launches-new-managed-product-for-educators-and-students/

<comment><USER2> As someone who had an education startup in the past, I think this will be big for Weebly. Teachers are very vocal/social, so if a few fall in love with it and spread the word, it could grow fast.

I'm not too familiar with Weebly's current feature-set but if they added (or simply re-named) a feature that was teacher-specific and pain-reducing, it would probably help even more.

</comment><comment><USER3> As a high school student, I find it somewhat discouraging that Weebly's the only way to make a website for National History Day - what about people that know HTML and CSS inside out and would prefer coding it by hand to creating a site with Weebly?

<comment><USER4> You can do that too -- Weebly has "Advanced Editing" functionality to let you fully customize the HTML/CSS of your site, and a "Custom HTML" element to let you place any HTML snippet directly on your page -- everything is fully customizable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It is great to see Weebly entering the education space. I am tired of blackboard. Education and health care space are notoriously difficult for startups to enter for various reasons. I wonder what is Weekly's strategy for dealing with issues that make so many previous Learning management system startups fail.

</comment><comment><USER6> @markbao where are you on this one!?</comment>


Chumby Guts - the innards for $99 - <AUTHOR> http://www.makershed.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKCH1

<comment><USER2> What the heck a Chumby is, for the lazy:

<http://www.chumby.com/pages/learn_overview>

</comment><comment><USER3> Unfortunately, it looks like they already sold out.</comment>


For First Time Robot Displays Self-Awareness in Logic Puzzle - <AUTHOR> http://www.engineering.com/DesignerEdge/DesignerEdgeArticles/ArticleID/10473/Robot-Displays-Self-Awareness-in-Logic-Puzzle.aspx

<comment><USER2> To an outsider like me, this looks very impressive. On looking through the paper giving a 3-page summary of the Denotic Cognitive Event Calculus ([http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~govinn/dcec.pdf](http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~govinn/dcec.pdf)), I got the impression that this apparent self-awareness was in some way built into the language - for example, 'Self' appears to be a word declared in the syntax. I don't know if this is so, or if it really matters - perhaps someone who does could comment?

<comment><USER3> I don't know whether this is impressive or not. It's not like they took three robots, told them the puzzle and they started thinking and talking. It depends on how they actually implemented it. With prolog it would take 30 minutes to have something like this, given that you know the puzzle and what you want the robots to do.

No self-awareness was there for sure, though, and I feel whatever they did won't really traspose to anything else easily, so I don't think the result is particularly impressive.

OTOH, the algorithm itself could be new and more performant of whatever Prolog could do, and that would be an achievement. But not really with respect to AI.

<comment><USER2> Having thought about it some more, what I think is going on here is that the Denotic Cognitive Event Calculus formalizes the deductive steps that a rational and already self-aware agent would perform, and the program is therefore just 'going through the motions'. If so, then this is not like becoming self-aware as a result of experience processed by generalized intelligence, something that several species are capable of.</comment></comment></comment>


Trump declares emergency over IT threats - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48289550 <comment><USER2> It would do good to remember that while the US has a valid concern that the Chinese govt could force Huawei to spy on US telecoms, the US has laws in place that allow it to do the exact same when it comes to equipment from the US being used in other countries.

<comment><USER3> That's the point. If a murderer tells you that she's worried about other murderers killing people, you should listen to her and not call her a hypocrite. She may be an expert on the subject, and in a very good position to tell you something useful. I was all for giving China benefit of doubt, and peaceful rise, and all of that. But the turn of abrupt face made me change my position. Now I am for containing China before it becomes the next USSR, absorbing countries and putting people in gulags.

<comment><USER4> > If a murderer tells you that she's worried about other murderers killing > people, you should listen to her and not call her a hypocrite.

OH, I see! Your whistleblower murderer is worried of other murderers murdering you while actively trying to murder everyone else including the potential murderers, right?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> So... I'm not sure, but doesn't this mean a lot more waters will get muddied from the tech follow-up and more evidence for collusion with Russia (in particular Wikileaks) will have a greater likelihood of accidentally being destroyed?

</comment><comment><USER6> Finally. The whole "we do it too" is a matter of degree. We have an "approximate" democracy. There is infinitely more transparency in our totally fucked system vs the CCP totally fucked system.</comment>