Apple's Proprietary Software Locks Kill Independent Repair on New MacBook Pros - <AUTHOR> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yw9qk7/macbook-pro-software-locks-prevent-independent-repair <comment><USER2> The impact of this will be much bigger outside of the US, as most countries outside of North America do not have a single Apple Store.

In those countries, usually there is a licensed repair provider, but the customer experience can be drastically different. In Bulgaria, I've had to wait of over 3 weeks for a simple in-warranty repair of a MacBook, like a keyboard replacement.

Using unlicensed repair stores has been the only choice.

Now that this option is gone, it will surely be harder to justify owning a MacBook as a business device.

<comment><USER3> Totally agree, and the more I think about it, the more I feel that apple products have started becoming inaccessible to me too.

From what I understand they want to protect their brand by building quality and repairing with quality as well.

Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

A week ago I was in the apple store in London, a guy next to me bought one of their new flagships through o2 and the phone's buttons weren't usable, he was told by o2 he has to wait 3 weeks on a replacement, so he tried his luck by going to the apple store. He was told that there is nothing they can do and that he has to do it through o2, which I personally find it appalling, having paid a big chunk of money and getting a defective product, which is under warranty and all that and being told that they can't fix it or replace it and you have to go through the person you bought it from to replace it. I felt like their service isn't going to do any justice to me if anything is to happen to my iphone, watch, airpods, macbook.

Not to say that i live in Greece as well where the waiting times to get something repaired is around 3 weeks as well, I managed to fix my own keyboard on my mac watching youtube videos and ordering the toolkit from amazon in 2 hours... they wanted 3 weeks, and looking at it, to an experienced engineer with the right tools would take about 2 mins to fix it.

They need to invest in their repairs worldwide if they want to keep their customer base imho.

<comment><USER4> I don't normally give salty replies on HN but I have to say no. This is incorrect.

> Issue is that they are lacking on employees for what they want to do.

That is not the problem. The problem is many of us do not accept the world in which everything, down to the hardware we touch is just licensed to us.

Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to repair, tinker and transform.

<comment><USER5> > Some of us live to hack, crack and diy. We are jealous of the right to > repair, tinker and transform.

Completely off topic, but here in Norway we also have a _right to reverse- engineer software_ if the vendor can't or won't provide what you need to complete an integration. This has been the case since the 1960s if I remember correctly, and it's still in there after revising the law this year.

Ref: Åndsverkloven of 2018 §42 [0] (in Norwegian), [https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42](https://lovdata.no/lov/2018-06-15-40/§42)

<comment><USER6> The way I see it US govt won't enact a law that makes their big businesses worse off (at-least) the current ones.

They brag about how well off the top companies are, valued at trillions and that's their measuring stick.

But as a consumer, the govt is not for you. If you want repairability, don't buy from Apple. There is a reason why Apple as a brand is not popular in places where they don't have Apple stores and good support.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I upgraded my MacBook Air, I decided to try switching away from Apple. Primarily because the new MBP's & Air's were expensive, and all the new feature which made them expensive were things I didn't want or need. I also wanted to give Linux another shot.

I went for a Dell XPS, and while there are things I don't like (primarily keyboard & trackpad) I've got used to them. (Keyboard still shits me).

But, when the motherboard & power adaptor died on me. A dell technician came to my house the next day, sat at my kitchen table and fixed it on the spot.

After being an Apple customer, my mind was blown!!

They also shipped a new charger. (The tech might have been able to just give me one, but I think the charger might have died shortly after the repair, details).

I will probably stay loyal with my iPhone, primarily for iOS (but my 6S serves me just fine, I have no need to upgrade). But I don't think I will ever buy another MacBook.

<comment><USER8> For this reason MacBooks aren't really business devices in my opinion. What kind of business is okay with the service Apple provides? You have to send one employee to the Apple Store (if there is even one located near you), maybe get a replacement device, maybe wait for 2 weeks for it to return? This is so much more expensive than buying Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. with on-site support. On top of that you often get repair manuals for the slightly bulkier models.

<comment><USER9> We mitigate this risk by just having a spare device or spare laptop on premises. It works and it's cheap. We use tons of Macs in a business setting, and we're definitely not going back to PC's. The PC's were a nightmare (not in terms of the hardware, but because of the sofware) from a management and administration perspective. Primarily because of Windows. Using Macs running macOS has really been a gamechanger.

<comment><USER10> As a MacBook owner MacOS feels like abandonware to me.

When I reboot into Bootcamp and Windows 10 I feel like I'm using a machine 10 years in the future.

<comment><USER11> Whereas when I boot my games box into Windows 10 and it sits there saying "Applying updates" for 45 minutes before rebooting and then thrashing itself into unusability for another 45-60 minutes doing ... something ... I feel like I'm being trolled by MS.

<comment><USER12> I have the same experience with the force upgrades of OSX (due to xcode). Download is big, require massive 21G of free space, takes ages to update on older MBPs, everything gets more sluggish after the update and crashes more often...

<comment><USER13> That's just once per year?

Microsoft throws away all of your open work at least every month. NSDocument alone is 25% of the reason I stay with macOS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I just replaced the keyboards in two older (2011 and 2013) long out-of- warranty MacBook Pros. Both required the complete disassembly of the machine. One fix cost about $150 in parts and the other was less. If I'd been required to let Apple do the work, each machine's repair would have cost at least $500, and that assumes Apple would even have been willing to repair such old machines.

Apple just gave me yet another reason not to buy a new MBP and to keep milking my old ones along.

<comment><USER15> I had a 2013 Samsung ATIV Book and when the keys began to fail, I attempted to replace the keyboard. This is something that took < 5min on my 2008 HP laptop but was now impossible, because Samsung decided to glue and mold the keyboard onto the actual case.

So this isn't a problem limited to Apple, apparently most manufacturers decided that devices need to be as unfixable as possible.

<comment><USER16> More likely they decided devices needed to be as light and cheap to manufacture as possible and a by-product of that is being unfixable.

<comment><USER17> It might be the result of a compromise but it is still an active choice. I think it is within the remit of a designer to think how the product will be serviced.

<comment><USER14> Some designers maybe. Jony Ive clearly couldn't care less about repairability.

<comment><USER17> If he's selling Apple Care insurance, I bet he does (one way or another)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is true for farmers in many places who buy or lease machinery from companies like John Deere. Using IOT, Deere can tell when a non-OEM part has been installed and they can remotely disable the machine until the "proper" part has been installed. Their customers are locked into their parts and service.

<comment><USER19> To be fair, there is a pretty big difference between something like a tractor, where most of the parts are simply large pieces of machined metal, and something like a computer where most of the parts are not repairable and, due to security concerns _which benefit the customer_ , there are things like secure enclaves which may entail chain of custody concerns to be properly replaced.

<comment><USER20> A modern tractor isn't simply a bunch of machined metal, they have several computers on board, including integrated laptops with vendor branding, to control various equipment or the engine or many other things. Several of these parts are not repairable and need to be swapped entirely (if you want a taste of this; modern car lighting assemblies with LEDs can't have individual sections replaced, the entire assembly needs to be swapped).

<comment><USER19> What you're saying is true. What I'm saying is also true. I worked in construction for a while. The equipment is similar. Most of the repairs are fixing worn out or broken pieces of machined metal or broken or leaky hydraulic lines, not electronics.

Phones are different. Usually repairs on a phone involve replacing a piece of highly integrated electronics, not a work out or broken piece of metal or plastic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> These videos created by a third party Apple repair shop convinced me to ditch Apple: [https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sor...](https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid)

He goes into the poor practices they use in manufacturing in general that literally every other manufacturer gets right. They might use under-sized capacitors to save room on the board. The first "unibody" they advertised had two aluminum parts glued together. Some of their repairs for recall-level issues amounted to burning the board, which masks the problem and kicks the can down the road until your warranty runs out. They actively fight your right to repair.

I like how their products look and work, but they really make unreliable products that look and feel premium with substandard engineering, overcharge, perform shockingly shoddy first party repair and generally try to shift blame to customers.

So, for the engineering, you'd want to get AppleCare.. a very expensive extended warranty, on an already overpriced machine, where they will give you refurbished boards/computers, using their own often highly questionable repair tactics, like placing rubber over things to push it harder onto the board instead of re-soldering, or baking the board to mask problems.

<comment><USER22> Rossmann is advertising his own repair shop with those videos. And of course he sees only the bad stuff, since he repairs the broken ones.

MKBHD explains the issue pretty well here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndphYju6PVM)

tl;dr Apple produces craptons of stuff, if just 0.01% of it fails, it's thousands of devices - and those users jump to social media to bitch about it, making it seem like a huge number of devices is affected.

<comment><USER23> FWIW every single Apple user I know had problems. From the deliberately ill- engineered flimsy cables to the Apple's BSOD-equivalent.

None of them upgrade their iOS firmware. Even grandmas know not to click "update".

BTW thanks for the UI dark patterns Apple assholes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This is a shame and another setback for Macbooks / Macs. I'd agree with "planned obselescense" over security being the motive as the article pointed out. This will also not hurt Apple in the slightest, only their consumers who are blinded by their unwavering loyalty to the brand.

Sent from my iPhone

<comment><USER25> I'm not "blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand" but the suggestion that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is ridiculous.

I'm a normal guy who works in IT and does pretty much everything with my MBP. Work (Citrix, email, Office), play (Logic, Lightroom), development (Sublime, Chrome, the Terminal) ... I mean come on.

For my "loyalty" to be considered "unwavering" there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up- to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. I'm all-in on the Apple ecosystem for a damned good reason and, while I may not love this approach to repairs, that does not make me an unwavering loyalist.

Don't tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can't.

<comment><USER26> Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux.

Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine.

Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts are even supposed to be pretty good.

The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac.

Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop.

Just admit you're a fanboy.

<comment><USER27> I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform linux/win/macos.

[1]: [https://www.darktable.org/](https://www.darktable.org/) [2]: [https://www.bitwig.com/](https://www.bitwig.com/)

<comment><USER25> Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.

<comment><USER26> It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.

<comment><USER25> It's not like they weren't fucking awful either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'm actually a little disappointed in Apple's service considering the cost of their hardware and the cost of AppleCare.

Back in the 80s and 90s many companies excellent service was you'd call customer support, they'd express ship you a replacement for free and you'd send back the broken item. They would take your credit card number just in case you didn't send the broken item back but otherwise it was on their dime.

I had this experience with NEC 21 inch monitors, 2 different video card companies, and Matrox hard drives as just 4 companies off the top of my head. Yes, NEC FedExed me 70lbd 21 inch monitors over night. No idea what it cost them but the monitor cost me around $2500 in 1995, certainly comparible to an MBP.

Compare to Apple, they were going to service my MacbookPro and I was without it for 2 weeks. The only reason I was able to get by is I had just bought a new Windows laptop for VR so I'd have something to use while they serviced the MBP.

It made me wonder why they couldn't do it the way those other companies did. Send me the new machine, I'll transfer my data, wipe the old machine, send it back. Even if my old machine is unusable (and therefore I can't get the data off) I'd still prefer the instance service I use to get. Just give me a new machine, factor that into the cost.

The fact that they didn't do as good a job as those other companies was disappointing.

<comment><USER29> They generally do a better job if you have a nearby Apple Store (an official not a third party one). Unfortunately if you don't have one of those you end up a little worse off.

On the plus side, most brands don't have stores in the majority of non major cities. Apple Does. So they're ahead of a lot of brands in that regards.

You can get repairs usually done same day or within 1 or 2 days in the worst case if you can walk into an Apple Store in most cases (with some exceptions obviously) - for both iPhone and Mac.

EDIT: The comment below points out they only have stores in 22 countries. I agree in some regards that is low but I would suggest it is probably high compared to many brands for not requiring a 2 week turnaround as you had above.

<comment><USER30> The repair experience for MacBooks (not iOS!) is abysmal, even at Apple Stores. Whereas other vendors (HP, Dell, Lenovo) will happily send you customer-replaceable parts (keyboards, disks, etc.) or a technician for on- site NBD repairs even with their standard warranty plans, Apple requires you to buy Apple Care (~10% premium) and then you still have to wait for appointments and repairs at the Genius Bar. This can easily take a week or two, and they do not provide a loaner devices so you're without your computer for the duration of the repair. I've been told that there are professional Apple Care plans that do provide them, but they come at a (even higher) price.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Can the T2 chip be accessed via a publicly accessible API? Or would some reverse engineering be required?

Since the third party check is software based, it's theoretically possible to write a piece of software that could either overwrite the flag on the T2 chip or man-in-the-middle spoof the return value to relevant applications.

EDIT:

I'm also curious to find out whether it's the OS or EFI that's performing the check. Because if it's Mac OS, the easy "hack" fix would be to use an alternate OS such as Windows or Linux that doesn't care about the T2 chip. But I guess that would defeat the purpose of buying a Macbook Pro in the first place.

Also, now that I think about it, if the check is in EFI then you're kinda screwed since you can't really patch it preemptively or man-in-the-middle it without booting an OS first...

...No wait, that's why projects like rEFInd exist. I guess someone could write a custom EFI manager that would bypass the check. Just install rEFInd first before replacing parts.

Seems that this is super hackable and is just a matter of time until we are able to spoof the flag.

<comment><USER32> The check in question is likely happening on the T2 itself; it's a small ARM processor (derived from the ones used in iOS devices) running its own OS (a variant of watchOS, which is itself ultimately a derivative of macOS).

Among other things, it's responsible for the early boot process; it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it thinks things don't look right.

<comment><USER31> > it performs firmware and OS verification and can stop the boot process if it > thinks things don't look right

Well crap. There goes my ideas.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start.

This change affects "display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board". I could see wanting an alternate, after-market keyboard, but otherwise am happy to stick with Apple parts. The main hindrance, as others point out, seems to be for people in sparser areas with no authorized repair shop.

<comment><USER34> Requiring authorized/first party repair is manifestly bad. Consider what the automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.

<comment><USER35> It's true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog.

But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed.

<comment><USER36> > It's true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to > backlog.

That's growing pains though. Give it a few years and there should be greater parts availability and independent electric car repair shops.

> But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with > independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, > I was no longer disappointed.

There are _a lot_ of bad mechanics out there. The trouble is as many of them work for the dealerships as not, so it's not much of a filter in general. Even if the quality at dealerships is slightly higher, the _possibility_ of going to an independent shop is the only thing keeping their prices in check. Or their service quality for that matter.

You'll find no trouble getting service for your ten year old car. Ask Apple to support your ten year old iPhone.

<comment><USER37> I've watches some videos on youtube of guys who try to salvage Tesla's. I am not sure if these are growing pains or if Tesla is just more interested in a model without independent mechanics.

In these videos it seems more that Tesla is VERY hostile against people who repair their car. They have no access whatsoever to parts, so their only chance is to buy damaged cars and salvage the parts. My feeling was that it was very hard for the owners to keep the cars updated and to super charge these cars.

My experience with dealers repairs and independent contractors is that most of the dealers change assembly groups and good mechanics change what's damaged. You've got less problems if you change assembly groups but it is way more expensive.

<comment><USER36> Using used parts for repairs is normal practice. It makes little sense to manufacture a new body panel when there is a perfectly good one from a vehicle with a bad drivetrain just sitting there in a junkyard.

The trouble right now is because Tesla has only recently started delivering in meaningful volumes, there is no big supply of them in junkyards to pull parts from. And for much the same reason there are no independent parts suppliers yet, so the company has a temporary monopoly on parts.

Whether their attitude changes when the parts monopoly erodes remains to be seen, but competition has a way of shifting corporate behavior.

And some of the current behavior is within reason, e.g. if you have free supercharging it's not so you can modify your car to sell that power back to the grid, or take the VIN of a wrecked car with free supercharging and try to transfer it to an entirely different car by exchanging a couple of parts. There has to be some process to make sure that's not what's happening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> > "Another is security, but I don't see a security model that doesn't trust > the owner of the device making much sense."

It's not the owner of the device that Apple doesn't trust. I wonder if there has been any major instances of people other than the owner of an Apple device trying to get into it? Maybe the CEO of iFixit can think of one?

</comment><comment><USER39> I love OS X, but nowadays I can't stand Apple's hardware.

Living outside of the US, using Mac products purchased in the US means you have to go to third-party repair shops. Last week I took my 1-year old, $2,500 MBP to an Apple store in Istanbul, only to find out that Applecare doesn't work here, and a replacement screen would cost me $650 (thanks to super high import taxes). Tomorrow I'm taking it to a 3rd-party repair shop where the repair, with what is likely a counterfeit or stolen screen, will cost $400. I'm considering just buying a used Dell instead, but I hate Linux on the desktop.

<comment><USER40> FWIW you might find that Windows 10 Pro + WSL can get you a lot of what you want in terms of desktop capabilities.

MS have been improving the WSL/Windows Interop quite a bit. I find that for things like scripting, text file manipulation and connecting to Linux servers, WSL works fine.

<comment><USER41> But I'm not prepared to have Candy Crush adverts in my Start Menu, which counts Windows out.

Additionally, I know I can deactivate them by jumping through a couple of hoops, but that's not the point.

<comment><USER40> Out of curiousity, why do you feel that's not the point? Customizing an operating system after installation is a common part of the process for any system

Having to remove unwanted software seems like an odd reason to rule out an entire environment.

<comment><USER42> Having to fight against a vendor who feels entitled to advertise to you via your general purpose tools is the point, or rather, not going down that path.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is an excellent step for protecting MacBook Pro users against hardware invasions (such as US and China border authorities). If you trust the user to replace hardware, you permit the user's hardware to be altered by malicious actors. By restricting final approval of hardware replacement to a vetted subset of all humanity, you ensure that it's vastly more difficult for the vast majority of malicious humanity.

Yes, in a theoretical world, you could set up your own crypto authority and sign your own device repairs, assuming Apple were to build support for this. But if you brick your CA you'd brick your laptop if it ever needed repairs someday, which would leave you thousands of dollars poorer and in need of a laptop.

I trust Apple to run this CA and gate access to it _far_ more than I trust my personal self to do so. This security improvement will make me safer, as well as my non-engineer coworkers, and my mom.

<comment><USER44> My opinion about Apple has changed recently. They're now actively promoting privacy and I am OK with trading repairability with privacy.

Also, Louis Rossmann on Youtube one of the most vile, deeply corrosive personalities out there and his audience enjoys the bashing of Apple left and right. He has essentially marketed himself as Anti-Apple and his message is always "Apple is Evil".

<comment><USER45> Watching Rossmann vids is why I have given up on Apple.

He points out bad engineering/manufacturing in $2000+ laptops and I agree with his insights regarding how Apple makes it seem like the customer/user is wrong to cover their bad engineering.

Ala -- the antenna is fine, it's your fault you have bad reception. You are not holding the phone correctly

<comment><USER46> Blame the consumer and sell a fix. Think Different.

[https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on- iphone-4-re...](https://venturebeat.com/2010/06/24/steve-jobs-on- iphone-4-reception-issues-youre-doing-it-wrong/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> This is a step backward on ownership but the average Joe isn't going to care about this. If at most might protest at their large repair bill they get after dropping their Starbuck's Frappucino over their keyboard. However they will quickly go back to their normal way of life; which is accepting onerous Terms and Conditions from corporations.

<comment><USER48> Average joes aren't buying macbooks anymore, iphones and ipads all the way

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> So, this article says there is no security model that doesn't trust the owner of the device, and there's something to that.

But "evil maid" attacks are a pretty routine occurance in China, and having hardware that is resistant to that would be very interesting. I don't know enough about hardware to really know if they can lock everything down far enough that it's impossible to physically mess with it. It would be interesting if you could verify whether it has been messed with using an iPhone that has been at your side.

But I'm not an Apple user anyway, so this doesn't really effect me anyway :)

</comment><comment><USER50> As someone who have four macbooks here at home, and has been on the mac ecosystem for decades, I'm just done with them. The last macbook pro I bought is literal garbage. The keyboard has three broken buttons and the thing is less than a year old. Now they are telling me that I can't fix my machines on my own? Thanks but no thanks.

<comment><USER51> My sentiments exactly. Windoze has largely caught up in terms of usability and lack of annoyance. The difference is the attitude. MSFT has become what Apple once was--responsive and considerate of users that have different needs and tastes. My company kind of forced me off OSX but I don't miss it. Still have 3 macbooks and 2 mini's at home. But I've also started using old W-class thinkpads. I feel much more in control of the thinkpads. Plus they are cheap as dirt and don't fight me every time I want to change something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> My first macbook pro was in 2007. I had it in a demo area and I shattered the screen.

I found a place selling the display unit, which I replaced, for a fraction of the cost of having apple repair it.

I imagine this is to cut down on the number of Apple computers repaired with bootleg parts, then either resold to Apple, or brought in for warranty repairs, but stopping legit DIYer from repairing their hardware is a pretty terrible side effect.

EDIT TO ADD: More likely, the security chip verifies the hardware wasn't tampered with, so it needs special software to update its checksum.

</comment><comment><USER53> How this kind of business tactic is not illegal? I think this is a clearly violation of user's right to repair.

<comment><USER54> Freedom.

<comment><USER55> I mean. I'm not saying you're wrong here. What's freer than an anarchic society after all? Of course, we can justify rules on the grounds of freedom. A king certainly is free, his subjects are not.

So what's freer? A company that controls all aspects of their customers use of their products? Or a company that is restricted from such practices?

I can't tell if your post is sarcastic, glib, factual... So I think you were too terse here. Your meaning is not obvious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> The iMac Pro is similarly locked down. All while Apple fights against Right To Repair legislation.

<comment><USER57> It's absolutely baffling how so many seemingly educated, knowledgeable people such as those found in tech can support these anti-user practices via their support of Apple's products.

It goes further than just Apple's hardware products: some people prefer to build "Hackintosh" systems (OSX running on non-Apple hardware) and a common problem is dealing with wifi-adapter whitelists. Why would you ever want to consider using an OS that imposes such arbitrary restrictions on you?

<comment><USER19> Because, statistically speaking, 0% of the population wants to tinker with their computer. Neither you nor anybody else on this website is normal.

<comment><USER58> Tell that to my 70 year old grandmother who has replaced both the motherboard and hard drive in her Lenovo desktop. If you design a somewhat reasonably easy to repair computer people are more than happy to fix it themselves. It's only because of the difficulty of repairing apple products that people shy away from the idea.

<comment><USER19> Or maybe your 70 year old grandmother is a several standard deviation outlier and that has something to do with you commenting on this website, which is frequented by several standard deviation outliers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> This is pretty messed up. DRM for hardware. I just picked up a couple SGI workstations earlier this week, both built in 1996. If SGI had implemented some DRM like this, it would be quite the uphill battle to even make use of these old systems that often require replacement parts to get running. There's no excuse to tolerate these harmful practices.

I have a collection of some 20+ classic Macs, all of which I have performed some degree of hardware replacements/repair on. No way I'd have access to some Apple "authorized repair technician" services as an enthusiast collector who just likes old computers.

Then there's the family members and friends whose computers I fix as a favor -- guess they can shell out $hundreds, instead of buying a cheap replacement part and having it installed for free, right? Assuming Apple even still produces the respective component! :\

</comment><comment><USER60> You know they also sell machines without the secure enclave bonded to the substrate. If you don't want that feature you can buy one of their other machines -- or someone else's.

I can find plenty of reasons to dump on Apple, but I do believe their commitment to customer privacy is pretty strong (even before considering that they are a large corporation).

And I say that even though I don't believe, say, their commitment to open standards (it's historically been enthusiastic in areas where they have been behind and then, if they claw themselves out of that particular hole, the commitment is mysteriously sloughed off). The privacy issue, in particular in the Cook era, has been more consistent (if imperfect) even when I would not think it needed to be for business reasons.

Again, I'm not trying to paint apple with some broad "good guy" brush, just talking about this one issue.

<comment><USER61> Their whole "privacy" campaign recently is precisely to drum up business. Everyone is parroting how Apple is so focused on privacy when they forget that they work closely with the FBI. Remember the whole thing about iMessage keeping encryption keys stored on apple servers? iPhones have a mics, a camera, and access to all your personal data. Calling apple strong on privacy is like calling lions strong on vegetarianism.

<comment><USER62> My only knowledge of Apple and the FBI is Apple refusing to unlock iPhones at the FBi's request - care to enlighten me further?

I'm also not sure what the problem with Apple keeping iMessage encryption keys on their servers is. The article I read about it said that Signal also uses centralized encryption key servers and nobody ever complains about Signal.

[https://www.wired.com/2015/09/apple-fighting-privacy- imessag...](https://www.wired.com/2015/09/apple-fighting-privacy-imessage- still-problems/)

<comment><USER61> I've complained about signal in the past as well. Everyone uses signal and telegram like they are some kind of special secret place which is an illusion. They are more likely honey pots.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> I never understood Apple with this. They fight hard to make long lasting devices (iOS 12 can be installed all the way back on the 5s IIRC), but then fight back against repairability

<comment><USER64> It's a tradeoff between owner repairability and security.

And Apple is betting that the second is more important. This isn't a black/white issue. It's which shade of grey you prefer.

<comment><USER65> It is not a trade-off.

Apple is instead purposely trying to make it more difficult to repair their devices.

This is evidenced because they ate lobbying against right to repair laws.

What possible, non bad faith reason could apple have for opposing people's right to repair their own property?

<comment><USER19> They are lobbying against the right to repair laws because it will limit what they are able to do from a security standpoint. And, since basically nobody repairs their own machines anyway, it would be a damned shame if 100% of their users lost out on having the best security features possible because 0% of their users want to be able to repair their laptop.

<comment><USER27> My experience is that about 75% of people owning an apple product would like to have serviced/repaired outside apple due to very long delay and overcharged prices.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> So, with more of this happening, I have a bigger question for HN.

Why does used Apple hardware command a premium, even years later? Is this really come down to status?

I don't think I need to discuss the anti-user features that Apple does. This crowd is more than aware.

<comment><USER67> Because it's pretty great hardware. And if you price out trying to duplicate it, without arbitrarily discounting for features you don't want, it's not even much of a premium.

<comment><USER68> > Because it's pretty great hardware.

It's not great, it's pretty, sure, but not great. The Last MBP spec were pretty underwhelming, the keyboard was of dubious quality and for the price it's easy to find better specs, more robust and with no extra fee when it comes to warranty. When you buy a Mac you're buying a brand, not a superior product, the "premium" is the logo on rear... Unfortunately I use both Logic and Final Cut on a daily basis so I have no choice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> I am literally waiting for the Pixelbook 2 to replace my MacBook Pro (Touchbar) as it's been rotting away with failing speakers and keyboard getting progressively worse over time. This is my 3rd with a decade long history of using the devices. However, repairs are just too inaccessible. I don't have the luxury to wait a month for a third party authorized repair shop to do its magic so I can continue working. My best experience was with the 2011 model which I upgraded myself. Everything after was just a worse experience.

</comment><comment><USER70> Lol was already resigned to this being my last mbp (customer for at least 15 years)... This is pure icing .. .

<comment><USER71> I just hope my current rMBP 2015 doesn't die on me... I don't want the OLED bar, crappy keyboard or donglelife.

I don't want to run Windows either... Linux is also questionable.

Maybe I'll just get a hackintosh or something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Meanwhile fixing anything in this x220 has been as a simple as going on amazon. Keyboard? amazon. Battery? Amazon. Display? Amazon. Plastic enclosure? Amazon.

I've nearly replaced every damn part but the motherboard in it at this point, and its still cheaper to own than a new macbook.

My T460 sadly seems to have gone the apple direction. I don't want to buy a new $1K laptop every few years just because a small part broke or it needs a battery replacement, that's a ridiculous waste.

</comment><comment><USER73> I'm speculating this works similar to iOS developer signing, where each device has a unique HW-fused ID, and only Apple can issue a cryptographically-signed provisioning profile with that ID to allow you to load software onto that device.

In this case, each HW subsystem probably has its own unique ID which is hashed together; replacing one invalidates the hash and requires Apple to re-sign the system's "provisioning profile" to pass power-on tests.

<comment><USER27> Unique hardware Id is incredibly useful to identify and track devices and people around.

<comment><USER74> Yes, so if you get your Mac or iPhone stolen it's useless to the thief. This already happens with iCloud Activation Lock, but people just disassemble the motherboard and sell parts like the screen instead.

<comment><USER27> How exactly is that helping getting the device back ? or the data ?

How is that supposed to work anyways ? I only know a few stories of stolen iphones and macbooks and thieves had no issue using the devices or selling them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> If you don't like the particularities of how with how a business does business, don't buy their products. If enough people agree with you, the company will either go out of business, or will change its business practices.

The what amounts to hand wringing over Apple, mostly gets people flustered, without actually changing anything, but perhaps the direction of a few electrons somewhere.

<comment><USER76> I, for one, refuse to buy their products and would really like it if they went out of business.

How do I get other people to agree with me without talking about why I despise them?

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> This is exactly what people have been voting for with their wallets though.

</comment><comment><USER78> Is there a publicly maintained "repairability index" for laptops? iFixit used to have scores for smartphones, but laptops would now benefit from similar ranking.

Lenovo T480S still has some user-replaceable parts (RAM, SSD) and is only a little heavier than X1 Carbon.

<comment><USER79> iFixit has repariability scores for laptops too: [https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability](https://www.ifixit.com/laptop- repairability)

<comment><USER78> Thanks. No Lenovo laptops on their list yet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER80> > "Another is security, but I don't see a security model that doesn't trust > the owner of the device making much sense."

Apologies for the cynism, but isn't this pretty much the mainstream security model since at least the advent of smartphones?

<comment><USER81> It is mainstream, but I'd say the author has it subtly wrong. The model distrusts the user, not the owner. It just happens that we are no longer the owners of the devices we use.

<comment><USER80> Depends on your definition of "owner".

Legally, you're still absolutely the owner of the device. You're perfectly allowed to smash your iPhone into tiny pieces and make an art piece out of them. You're also liable for damages caused by the iPhone.

It's just that the device is constructed such that your choices of use are restricted to "use exactly as permitted by Apple at any given moment" or "don't use it at all". This is enforced by technical means, by reliance on components you do _not_ own (e.g. cloud services or the OS software) and by other laws (e.g. copyright). But it isn't enforced by ownership.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER82> Maybe now is a good time to try and revive user-friendly linux desktops initiatives ? ( and i mean really user friendly... don't mention anything that requires displaying « libxx » or « package y » to the user every now and then)

</comment><comment><USER83> Can anyone offer advice? I am about to enter a bootcamp, rails based, with an attached dev company / set of instructors. There is one dev using windows/Linux, several students on Ubuntu and the rest on Macs. I need a new laptop to participate. I use windows (desktop) though have used unix in the dim distant past. I am looking at a 13" i5 8gb 256gb 2017 mbp (max budget) vs a dual boot Win / Linux machine (hp envy)with an i7 and 16mb ram, full hd 13" touch screen (also with soldered ram but removable ssd). If 99% of the people use Macs I assume this makes it an obvious choice?

</comment><comment><USER84> Reading this I've grown even more appreciative of how easy ThinkPads are to repair/upgrade. Almost encouraged, given the many guides and YouTube videos available, and ultimately it's a cost saver to them.

And to all those that have moaned about the Linux desktop, I recently upgraded my ssd on my x260. End to end - circa 2.5 hours (a lot of that hands off). Fresh install of Fedora WS, with all packages and home directory restored, back to full productivity. No dicking around with drivers or playing "50 click-through install wizards".

I can't help but wonder, is that even possible on Windows or OS X?

Edit: typo

<comment><USER85> I installed Windows 10 on my old Dell Vostro 1720 (purchased around 2010) with a new SSD. There was minimal intervention by me. Within 30-40 mins I had a usable functioning system, connected to the internet etc.

I kicked off Windows update in the background and it chugged away with no prompting. I will admit this took a while but only because the ISO I have is Windows 10 RTM from 2015. It would likely have been quicker with a more up-to- date ISO with a later build.

The thing is it all depends on the hardware. If you're using more esoteric kit then you're likely to have a few more speedbumps regardless of OS.

<comment><USER84> It's good to know it's come leaps and bounds since the Win7 days. What about the software installation story? Is it still a case of download then click next next next. If it is then it's definitely a superior in Linux, where yum/dnf/apt will do both OS and apps for you.

I've limited experience wihb Win10, my wife has an XPS with Win10 pre- installed, and I've literally installed 2 things on it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> Lenovo thinkpads have a security chip also.

These so-called security chips give me mixed feelings.

They might improve the security of the average consumer, but they also create more barriers for anyone that wants to tinker with their setup.

<comment><USER27> Almost every computer has a security chip now.

At least if your computer has something related to one of these names: AMD, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Wave Systems Corp, Digital Management, Inc., Cisco, Lenovo, Infineon, Juniper Networks, Fujitsu, etc.

These are the member of the consortium Trusted Computing Group[1] who pushed for Trusted Computing[2] through hardware or software.

Do you remember the Palladium fiasco (now Next Generation Secure computing Base[3]) ? The TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Alliance) ? This was the beginning and it happened in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing_Group)

[2]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing)

[3]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next- Generation_Secure_Computi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next- Generation_Secure_Computing_Base)

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> I have had a few run-ins with Apple over the years. Mostly semi-positive. These have been where I've had to take my main work machine in for repair and they've quoted me 14 days, but then turned the repair around in a few days. They've also often thrown in unrelated free stuff too. Last time when I took my Macbook Pro in for the free screen replacement (due to delamination) they also replaced the battery (it was bulging slightly apparently, I'd not noticed) and top case (the trackpad click wasn't reliable), totally free and not required (years out of warranty).

The one case that really sticks in my mind though was when I took a 13" Macbook (pro I think) in to have the keyboard replaced (the trackpad stuck). It was a US model with a US keyboard that I'd bought off the company I used to work for, and I figured that while they were replacing the keyboard they may as well put a UK keyboard on. The Apple reps on the phone, then in store both said this was a reasonable request (as I also thought) and so I left it with them.

I get a call a day or so later saying that they couldn't do the repair because "they had to replace components like for like". Bear in mind this was a paid for repair, not under warranty. I was willing to pay for the parts and labour. Apple confirmed that the new UK keyboard would work, but they weren't allowed to repair the laptop with a different keyboard. Nothing I could do could change their mind, I'd hit a complete brick wall. No keyboards could magically fall through the cracks in the back room and no favours could be done. As reasonable a request that all involved continued to think this was, they wouldn't do anything.

They even called around local apple dealers and none of them would do it either because they were all constrained by Apple's back-office systems.

In the end I bought a genuine, brand-new top case (keyboard, trackpad, integrated battery) off eBay and did the work myself, it worked just fine. No idea where it came from originally.

I guess this shattered any remaining idea I had that Apple was anything other than a machine. The operations side made so efficient by Tim Cook is also incredibly inflexible and as soon as you stray outside the bounds of what it has accounted for you hit a wall. As friendly as the geniuses and store employees are, Apple is not your friend.

</comment><comment><USER88> I have a new MacBook Pro and I love it, but I also bricked it on the first day, doing nothing more than the standard security precaution of not trusting the installed software. I rebooted into recovery, wiped the drive, and hit install... and whelp, it turned out Apple didn't provide compatible net boot recovery images until weeks after launch. Had to do a store return and live with the uncertainty of what I was running.

</comment><comment><USER89> Well, that's the end of corporate MacBooks, then...

<comment><USER64> Not sure what you mean here.

I don't know of a company on this planet who is self repairing Macs.

<comment><USER90> We self repair macs at our university. We have staff in our dept that are authorized repair techs. I'm sure many larger organizations have a similar setup.

<comment><USER67> Authorized Service Facilities have access to the required tool.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER91> Couldn't this protect me from somebody sneaking my laptop while I'm not looking and replacing a part with another that has some spyware attached?

Sounds like it could be pretty useful, but no particular reason why to prevent authenticated users from disabling it if desired.

</comment><comment><USER92> Well, Apple lost its soul years ago.

<comment><USER64> That makes no sense. Go have a look at the original Mac 128k.

They were borderline impossible to even open.

<comment><USER14> Only because Torx screwdrivers were rare in those days. I can open a 128k Mac now in about two minutes, and that includes the time it takes to buy the screwdriver at Home Depot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> Everyone forget that new MBP have TouchID that authorize payments. Replacing this part could be done at scale and payment keys could be collected and eventually used by bad actors.

</comment><comment><USER94> I've not looked at the details but maybe they should have make the lock optional to the user. Initially it is unlocked but once enabled, it cannot be disabled. This will give the right level of flexibility.

<comment><USER95> I'd analogize this to an e2e-by-default messaging app. The average user simply doesn't want to bother, and it's when stuff like this is the default that change happens.

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> Upon thinking about this more, I think they're going to alienate a lot of their Chinese and other East Asian customers. Many of them have their computers fixed locally and not at the Apple shop.

</comment><comment><USER97> Really surprised to see the display on this list. Compared to anything that involves removing ic's or replacing resistors (for example), replacing a display is pretty straight forward.

</comment><comment><USER98> Doesn't some of the states have a "right to repair" law? If memory serves correctly, Tesla had a trouble with that. Will Apple not be affected?

</comment><comment><USER99> And since Apple repair shops refuse to touch macs beyond a certain age, it means that it will now be completely impossible to repair an old mac.

</comment><comment><USER100> When you buy Apple stuff aren't you accepting that you're someone who pays way over the odds for it but that it's the price you pay for the lifestyle choice or something? I mean, I don't get it, as I always try and get the best bang for my buck so Apple stuff, being almost an order of magnitude more expensive doesn't stand a chance but if you can justify throwing money at a phone or laptop can't you just throw a bit more at it when it breaks?

<comment><USER101> It is not a "lifestyle choice", it was, until recently, the only source of decent developer-oriented hardware with UNIX-like OS, where everything works out of the box. Now there are other options, but they are just as expensive. Good hardware costs money.

Now though they are becoming less and less developer-friendly. I already replaced my desktop — it used to be Mac Pro, now it is a custom Linux box. There are not that many alternatives to Macbooks, but if Apple will continue this kind of politics, I'll change my laptop as well. And price has nothing to do with that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER102> I was planning to buy a MBP. Will scout for the older models that are still in market. MBP official repairs are damn costly.

</comment><comment><USER103> Bought first non Apple notebook in 12 years turns out Ubuntu is fairly usable and docker performs way better than on OS X.

<comment><USER104> Which laptop did you get and which version of Linux do you run?

I bought a 2015 DELL XPS 13 (9343) Developer Edition with Ubuntu. Ubuntu 16.04 has worked very poorly on it from the start. The installer crashed and I had to reinstall. Then the wifi was very slow. It would frequently lock up on resume. Hardware video decoding would occasionally crash and switch to software decoding which is choppy and eats battery power. The touchpad registered clicks while typing. One time the wifi suddenly stopped working after an update. Each of these problems was mostly solved by spending a few hours researching and running various commands as root. Some were fixed by updates after a few weeks. The latest bug is that right-clicking on the taskbar (panel? dash?) does not show any popup menu. So the only way to add buttons for launching programs is to make text files on the desktop with a special format.

I'm sick of the bugs in my Linux laptop. I'm about to get a Mac again.

<comment><USER14> Interesting. I bought the same machine with Windows (because that's what they had at Costco) wiped Windows, installed Ubuntu myself, and haven't had any of these problems.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER105> In states where there's a right to repair law in place, will they have to provide the software to anyone?

</comment><comment><USER106> This is simply a disgusting move. Guys like Louis Rossman are filling a gap in the market that Apple is not willing to offer: short turnaround repairs. Honestly, politics needs to step in. #RightToRepair

<comment><USER107> Louis Rossmann does amazing work. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocF_hrr83Oc)

Unfortunately, his store just caught on fire yesterday.

When it rains, it pours. Poor Louis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> What would it take to reverse this? How about protests at one of their events? Changing Tim Cook's mind is all that's needed.

<comment><USER108> Speak with your wallet - stop buying Apple products. Tim + the shareholders would notice that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER96> Don't worry. The wizards in China will figure out a way around this.

<comment><USER109> Most likely by cracking the software and then distributing it amongst themselves, but eventually copies will(should?) find their way out into the larger Internet.

Service software for a lot of other consumer hardware (printers, scanners, cameras, etc.) can be found online if you search hard enough.

<comment><USER110> Are you able to provide any other hints? I've got an older Sony point and shoot that's running some form of Linux (or maybe VxWorks). I'm pretty sure I can put it in debug mode with the right SCSI command.</comment></comment></comment>


Michael Cohen reportedly gave a tech firm $12,000 to rig polls in Trump's favor - <AUTHOR> https://www.businessinsider.com/michael-cohen-tech-firm-boxing-glove-walmart-bag-polls-trump-2019-1 <comment><USER2> So I think I have a few questions from this. Is it legal for a tech firm to do this? It is just a poll after all, but couldn't this count as some form of tampering with electronic devices? If this just happened, how many times before has this company done it? They said it was unsuccessful, does that mean they failed to do it or failed to do it enough to sway the polls? It just is a very weird incident and I don't know how I feel about it all.

</comment><comment><USER3> having technology companies participating in disinformation campaigns, apparently is not uncommon in US.

[https://www.foxnews.com/us/cyber-group-touted-by-dems-for- bo...](https://www.foxnews.com/us/cyber-group-touted-by-dems-for-bombshell- russia-report-was-behind-disinformation-efforts-in-alabama-senate-race)</comment>


Zembly will be suspended on November 30th, 2009 - <AUTHOR> http://zembly.com/static/suspend/index.html

<comment><USER2> So, open source the code and make sure that the stuff that was built there stays alive. If you don't do that then anybody else trying to follow in your footsteps will have to deal with the 'remember what happened to zembly' stigma.

If you host something you'd better be prepared to be in for the long haul, and to have an 'end-of-life' policy in place before you even start.

In fact, people probably should not be using services that do not have an end- of-life policy.

<comment><USER3> I've never seen a public end of life policy. I know that some companies that use a startup's technology often include a clause that if they go out of business the customer company will be able to buy the technology at a reasonable price.

Do you know of any examples of such a policy?

<comment><USER2> I'm going to make that a special issue of sorts, I really think that would go a long way towards dealing with plenty of the problems that I see in cloud services and third party hosted solutions.

This really needs attention.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Neither the linked article, nor the "continuously updated FAQs" explain why they are closing.

What happened? Why are they closing?

<comment><USER5> Part of sun. Sun is going to oracle land. Cutting costs/things that seem useless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> SAAS FTL. We managed to avoid customer backlash by propping MSN Music open for an extra couple of years, but companies folding with user data is eventually going to sour public opinion of cloud services. It will probably take 5 to 10 years, so no worries.

<comment><USER7> Hopefully in that time, some kind of data inter-change standard will appear, making this point moot.

Imagine import/export compatibility between all popular issue tracking apps. Given that most follow the ticket paradigm (as they share design pedigree) this would not be unthinkable from a technical viewpoint. However, it may be an uphill battle from an economical/political viewpoint : companies may not find this openness to their benefit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I have never heard of this service, but it looked interesting from examining the site. Three years is a long time to be in 'beta' for sure, though.

</comment><comment><USER9> zembly will be closing down - who cares ?

<comment><USER10> Probably very few - it appears to be more about another dead SaaS company and the question of - what happens to the IP/data?</comment></comment>


Aisle50 (YC S11) raises $2.6M, August Capital leads. - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/05/aisle50-lands-2-6m-to-save-you-50-on-organic-batter-blaster-and-other-fine-foods/

<comment><USER2> It'll take a lot for them to be very profitable. Look at Alice.com: a lot of hype a few years ago and now struggling. When you're talking about groceries, you're already in low margin market. Now add discounts? commissions? % cut? lower margins

<comment><AUTHOR> It's a tough business, you're right. But the nice thing about partnering with existing, main-line grocery retailers is that there's capacity to scale more quickly than a site that's wholly direct-to-consumer. And there's no inventory or shipping to mess with in this model.</comment></comment>


Pity the Seagull - <AUTHOR> http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2015/08/24/mary-wellesley/pity-the-seagull/ <comment><USER2> Growing up in Utah is such a different perspective. The California gull is celebrated just like, or even more than, the Bald Eagle.

Come to Utah all you gulls! Your ancestors made you a protected species here!

<comment><USER3> That is so crazy to me. Why do they like the gull?

I remember when we moved to California I thought ice plant was really cool looking and loved it, until someone told me it was a much hated invasive species that's killing shoreline plants.

<comment><USER4> Plague of locusts in 1848; seagulls appeared and ate the insects. It's remembered in the region as a miracle.

ETA: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_gulls](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_gulls)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> They aren't so bad. I live part of the year in a seagull rookery. If you carry a stick that reaches above your head they can't hit you. If you are working outside with an aggressive individual interested in you, you can time how long it takes them to circle around for another attack and raise your hand or tool just before they get there. Wear a hat and a jacket. After a while your standards slip enough that it's only gross if its warm. There is a constant noise, but I live the rest of the year next to train tracks, so the change is nice.

<comment><USER6> this is a pretty interesting definition of 'not so bad'

<comment><USER7> Living in a rookery, e.g. you are invading their home and nests. Isn't it natural to expect them to be defensive?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I grew up in a coastal New England town. I always loved the call of seagulls, and now it reminds me of home. I dunno if I'm just imagining it, but seagulls seem to sound different on the west coast and in Japan.

Anyway, I've got nothing against seagulls. They're big, pretty birds who have to deal with an expanding human population, like everyone else. I don't find them more aggressive than any other wild animal. Just keep your mouth closed when they're overhead :)</comment>


Writing in the 21st Century: Essay for Sale - <AUTHOR> http://timkreider.com/downloads/up-in-the-air-new-essay-for-download/

<comment><AUTHOR> Mr. Kreider's work was linked on the front page recently so I thought it appropriate to 1. expose more people to his work and 2. talk about his idea to try and make a living as a writer in the 21st century by selling his essays at 99cents a pop.</comment>


Hacker Ideas - <AUTHOR> http://hackerideas.com/

<comment><USER2> Why would anyone post Ideas here? So someone else can develop your idea and you get nothing from it?

<comment><AUTHOR> An idea doesn't mean anything. It's the execution that's important.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> My Fav - I wish there was a website where non-profits could ask for what they need and people could work for them from home.</comment>


Compsci projects - <AUTHOR> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/GroupProjects/gpb0910/DesignBriefs0910.html

<comment><USER2> Is anyone interested in trying any of these? I've already connected my security system to twitter and I doubt it be much harder to make an interface for my dog to use it.</comment>


Learn to read a binary font by reading a story - <AUTHOR> http://dotsies.org/stories/the-lamplighter.html <comment><USER3> This seems like it could actually be a real improvement on written Latin if it adopted a real phonetic alphabet. Just transposing all of my existing graphemes for new, smaller ones seems a little silly.

(And since what you're really asking is not for people to learn a new alphabet, but to learn a new symbol for every word in their lexicon, it wouldn't be that much more of a leap. Think about it.)

Thinking about it-- you increase your bandwidth immediately. You can knock out /c/, /q/ and /x/ right off-- maybe a couple other consonants (/j/?) with creative digraphs (/gi/?). Use the extra bits to add in the more confusing vowels sounds, and appropriate current digraphs where they aren't confusing.

Chording becomes your standard input device; just press every sound that's in the word at once and move on. Anyone would be able to type as fast as they could talk, at least, and read far faster. Text to speech and vice versa would be much easier. Machine translation would make you perfectly legible to the non-phonetically-literate, and the vastly improved typing speed would more than make up for any minor hiccups. It would be much, much easier to teach English to children and non-natives, so much so that we'd stop using letters for everyday writing. Alphabetic English would be bizarrely unintelligible within a couple generations, but again, thanks to machine translation, perfectly readable.

Of course you get all of this just from having a phonetic alphabet; a concise binary representation is just icing on the cake. If your goal is to get people to read different, why not go for the grand prize?

<comment><USER4> I'm going to school right now to become a court reporter / stenographer. Basically, I type on a funny looking keyboard ([http://www.acculaw.com/images/products/display/stenograph%20...](http://www.acculaw.com/images/products/display/stenograph%20diamante%20pink%20g.jpg)) where you're not so much typing letters as much as you're typing sounds. So the word "talk", for example would be written "tauk", with each letter of the word pressed at the same time (if possible. Some words you need to come back for a second, third, or god forbid forth stroke).

You have to write at 225 words a minute in order to graduate, but some people are able to write at speeds of 300+ words a minute. If you look at the keyboard, the machine is separated into two halves. On the left half there are only 9 keys, but each letter of the alphabet can be written with those 9 keys because it's context sensitive. The letter "t" by itself would be the letter t, but if it's next to a "k", it might become the letter d. You mentioned that we can knock out certain letters such as c, and that's indeed what is done with stenography. The word "car" is written "kar". There are sometimes conflicts, like "sell" and "cell", so you still need a way to write a c, but that's the gist of it.

Worth mentioning is that there are only 4 vowel keys on the machine (the vowels are the keys that are on the bottom), but you can write a lot of different sounds with these four keys. A, O, E, and U are the vowels that are on there, and if you press one of those keys individually, you'd write a short vowel of that key. If you wanted to write a short I, you'd press E and U together. You would write long vowel sounds by combining different vowels together. So for example, if you wanted to write a long e sound, you'd write aoe, long U sound would be aou, long a sound would be ai (or aeu depending on how you look at it), long o is oe, and long i is all the vowels together at once.

It can be hard to read what you've written if you're not extremely good at it. The word dime, for example, you would see as "TKAOEUPL". There are a few different theories out there, and even if everyone learns the same theory, everyone puts their own little spin on it, so if you wanted to read what someone else wrote, it might be tough.

This is the layout of the keyboard if anyone is interested ([http://dmc122011.delmar.edu/ba/crtrgallery/images/steno_keyb...](http://dmc122011.delmar.edu/ba/crtrgallery/images/steno_keyboard_chart_jpg.jpg))

<comment><USER5> As an outsider, I don't see why reading "TKAOEUPL" instead of "dime" would be an improvement (except for checking precisely what you wrote) for even professionals. Is there a reason why these machines don't convert the roughly- phonetic words into English words? I would think it wouldn't even be too hard to program, even with those 'little spin's, considering how far we've come with grammar checkers and gestural keyboards like Swype.

<comment><USER6> It's funny how when someone on HN says, "My method works well, but there are some pathological cases, like X" someone else on HN will invariably reply with, "Yeah, but I don't see why X would be an improvement."

This is a bad practice not only because it misrepresents the original thought (the person was not claiming that X was an improvement, they clearly called it pathological), but more perniciously it subtly erodes the (altogether sensible and honorable) habit of good people to give full disclosure of their ideas and methods. To put it simply: attacking someone on the weaknesses that they themselves have revealed about their own process or idea is neither fair nor useful, and does not contribute to the discussion.

<comment><USER5> If it came across that way, I'm sorry - I'm genuinely curious why such machines don't convert what was typed into English. In the past it was almost certainly a lack of computational power (or zero) - what about now? I was only asking about the reading portion, the writing is pretty clearly faster.

I'm not in any claiming that they should be typing on QWERTY. I'm wondering why the pathological case exists _at all_ when it seems it doesn't have to, and if there's a reason for it that I'm not aware of. Maybe there's a market for machines like this to spit out English, maybe there isn't, but I'm not in the field so I really don't know.

<comment><USER4> Ah, I'm sorry, I actually gave the wrong impression. On the machine I own, you can choose whether or not to have it display English, or what you've actually written, or a split screen with English on one side and what you've actually written on the other.

Reading it in English isn't as ideal as you may think, though. I actually prefer reading the notes. The problem is that if you're writing at 225 words a minute, it can be very easy to accidentally leave off a letter, or add an extra letter to a stroke. The English might come up as come up as a completely different word, where as if you're reading what you've actually written, it can be a lot easier to see your mistake and read the correct word.

For example, let's use the word Dime again. If I'm going at 225 and I accidentally add an "R" to the word dime, it'll look like "DRAOEUPL". In English, this would read "Did there come a time", where as if I were looking at my notes, it would be obvious to me that I intended for that to be "dime". If you're reading back at court, you don't want to make mistakes like that.

<comment><USER5> Makes sense, and yeah, that kind of error is something that grammar checkers still fail miserably at. Thanks!

It's good to know that it has at least been done. There are so many places where technology lies untapped, I was half-expecting this to be one of them since it's such an old field (and with close ties to the government).

<comment><USER4> I'm half expecting them to replace this field entirely with speech to text technology in 50 years or so.

<comment><USER7> 50 years or so? Kurzweil would have another heart attack if he read this ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I really like this approach (even if I'm still not entirely convinced about the benefits of dotsies).

For a while, I've had this idea of a book that starts in standard English, and gradually alters the grammar and introduces new words - so that halfway- through it's written in somewhat of a pidgin/creole language, and by the end you're reading a completely different language (e.g. French or Japanese). I'm not aware of such a thing existing, or even being feasible for that matter, but I think it would be interesting.

<comment><USER9> I had a similar thought a while back when reading "A Clockwork Orange". On page one the slang ("droogs", "horrorshow", "moloko", ...) is rather jarring and it's not entirely clear what it all means, but over time the meaning becomes apparent.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah yes, it's fun to say those words while listening to a little of the old Ludwig Van. Maybe even a little of the old in and - alright I'll stop there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Not sure if this is worth the effort, but brilliant approach to learning. I've often had fun playing with inventing my own alphabets and stuff -- if you could actually learn to read this font at a decent speed, it would be fun to click a bookmarklet anytime you wanted some privacy :)

I love reading, and I read pretty fast - I've often thought that the existing approach in most textbooks where they give you a short (5-10 line text) with tons of new words and grammar, and then when you're done working through that, give you a new one with a ton of new words, is non-ideal. Once I'm done learning all the new words, you should give me five pages with text that only uses the words I've already learnt, to "fix" it - and to give me a feeling of mastery...

<comment><AUTHOR> Very interesting thoughts!

> it would be fun to click a bookmarklet

You can grab a bookmarklet for this at dotsies.org (the blue button).

<comment><USER11> Could you make this bookmarklet toggle between regular/dotsies?

<comment><AUTHOR> That could probably be done. What's the use case? Maybe if you think of a good plot for the <http://dotsies.org/game> I'll take a stab at it :)

<comment><USER12> how's this for an idea, inspired by this video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxX_bVluflo> it would be an investigation into a world that got turned into dots, or something. That way you could have lots of dotsies font all around, and a bunch of text slowly turning into dotsies for practice. You might also consider color coding the letters so that you have an additional channel of hints that you can toggle on and off. To make the reader have a more gradual slope.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This reminds me of Elian Script[1]. It is not particularly optimized for reading but it is extremely easy to learn and become proficient in.

The usual habit to develop ones own handwriting style when using this, makes it something rather unique to each individual. This also improves writing speed because you optimize the letters to suit your own writing style. We both (friend and me) use it as a form of poor-man's-cryptography for diaries and stuff we write in public (trains, buses, etc).

My friend's Elian compared to mine is almost unrecognisable at first glance. But if you understand the few basic rules for the writing system, you can read either of our versions very effectively in only a short amount of time. And those rules are preposterously simple. You do not have to memorize different shapes for each letter of the alphabet. That's a definite plus.

[1]: <http://www.ccelian.com/concepca.html>

</comment><comment><USER14> This seems like one of those things that will push something useful out of my head if I learn it.

<comment><USER15> Absolutely. I stopped reading a couple of pages in because I didn't want to forget where I live.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Why not stack Morse code horizontally? At least Morse code is somewhat designed to take advantage of the frequency distribution of letters (e.g., e is a single dot.)

<comment><USER17> It has been done: <http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/58144>

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting! Here's a similar version that's more horizontally condensed:

<http://dotsies.org/morse>

I get asked this a lot, so I threw this together just now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's a shorter one. The first one is a bit long:

<http://dotsies.org/stories/the-runaway-couple.html>

If you have any preferences for any stories from gutenberg.org I can add those too.

<comment><USER18> are these programmatically generated? if so, would it be possible to get a script to make one of these from say an article scraped by instapaper?

<comment><AUTHOR> You can grab the bookmarklet at dotsies.org to use the font on any web page. If you're referring to going gradually from letters to dots then yes, happy to post the script.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I couldn't read anything past the title.

</comment><comment><USER20> In my opinion, it would make more sense to read braille by looking at it. However, it would be cool if this were some sort of alien language/hidden language in a video game or something.

</comment><comment><USER21> I can see this being applied in labels etc. for computer vision. Some kind of control/orientation character could make it similar to a QR code but actually readable by humans.

Generally, though, if something's going to be read by both, you may as well just have a label with plain English + a QR code. No reason why it has to be readable by both.

</comment><comment><USER22> Reminds me of Marain, the language and alphabet invented by Iain M. Banks for the Culture: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture#Language>

There's even a least one font available: [http://danielsolisblog.blogspot.fr/2010/09/free-font- marain-...](http://danielsolisblog.blogspot.fr/2010/09/free-font-marain- script.html)

</comment><comment><USER23> I've always wondered what Conway's Game of Life was trying to tell me...

</comment><comment><USER24> So... if I want the single letter 'B' by itself, it looks exactly the same as the letters A, C, D or E?

In other words, 'DE' look exactly the same, without any reference, as 'AB', and there is a haphazard set of similar combinations?

I'm not doing that. Learn Braille instead.

<comment><USER25> think differently. right now our brain processes letter by letter, with dotsies it will become symbol by symbol. i'm reading it for some time, haven't had that difficulty.

there will always be letters next to it anyway, easy to see the base, if you have to.

<comment><USER26> This looks exactly like Chinese.

Chinese people don't read line by line, they read paragraph by paragraph. Chinese has the advantage of reading very fast, and in fewer length[1]. The drawbacks however, are much larger character set (which results in higher illiteracy), and slightly slower writing speed.

But English/Romantic languages are not best suited for symbolic reading, because there are declensions. In Chinese, do-did-done are the same words. Every meaning is concluded by the context.

[1]: [http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/03/daily-c...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/03/daily- chart-21)

<comment><USER27> > This looks exactly like Chinese.

Looks more like a worse version of Hangul.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> What about diacritical marks? Without them it's restricted to English.

<comment><AUTHOR> Here are some accents. I'm adding them to the font as people request them at <https://twitter.com/dotsiesfont>

<http://dotsies.org/m/#%F8x+isf+%F4x+pt%F2q+xysjhh%E1>

<comment><USER29> Missing 'ñ' and 'ü'. ¡quiero leer español!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Last time your project came up, I wanted to ask if you've done any research into the various already existing shorthand writing systems ?

When I tried to find out more about those 10 years ago, a lot of sources were old and hard to find, but with a bit of persistence I found some PDFs and websites on a system called "Gregg Shorthand". Fortunately today it's right there on Wikipedia for you: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregg_shorthand>

<comment><AUTHOR> Greg and Pitman both look interesting - <http://omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm>

There's a potential to borrow some of the concepts while typing in dotsies, utilizing some of the many possible modifier keys that having the alphabet on both hands opens up (hold down c with one hand and typing h with the other hand, etc.).

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> This reminds me a great deal of Mark Twain's plan for the improvement of English Spelling:

<http://www.i18nguy.com/twain.html>

<comment><USER32> Attributed to Mark Twain, but unlikely to be written by him:

<http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j31/satires.php> <http://www.spellingsociety.org/news/media/spoofs.php>

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> For non-native english speakers, the text on the home (<http://dotsies.org/>) is a bit easier to grasp.

</comment><comment><USER33> I haven't put in the time to become fluent in reading Dotsies (Dotsie?) yet, but find it fascinating. I can imagine a multitouch keyboard made for Dotsies, that could be quite a bit more efficient once learned.

Has any research been done on optimizing graphemes and common words for multitouch typing?

</comment><comment><USER34> This seems flawed in that it arbitrarily translates regular symbols into what looks like a graphic error soup. I feel like letter and di/tri-graph frequencies should have been considered, as well as conventional expectations (m looks thicker than i, f.i.).

</comment><comment><USER35> The end of the story looks like 'space invaders', and I have the urge to shoot the letters.

<comment><AUTHOR> Omg, there should totally be a game like that to help people learn!

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, here's a start:

<http://dotsies.org/game/>

You can move it around with the arrow keys. It says "alien".

Now what should it do?

<comment><AUTHOR> I added some characters. Someone give me a plot!

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, now the alien can eat the other characters, but I don't know why. Anyone good at making up plots?

<comment><USER36> Rather than alien, how about a hungry catapillar. And the hungry catapillar can only eat the next word in the sequence. Ok now it sounds like hungry a katamari. nom nom.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> And what about UTF-8 letters (for example ā, ž, š)? How can you make them by using dotsies?

<comment><AUTHOR> Just add the accents at the top - <http://dotsies.org/m/#%F8x+isf+%F4x+pt%F2q+xysjhh%E1>

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I want to be able to read QR code by naked eye. Lets see how far I get.

</comment><comment><USER39> Interesting learning paradigm but on the "optimized for reading" side, we already have the Chinese alphabet which is probably at least as dense as dotsies.

</comment><comment><USER25> genious.. my favorite part of the day is to come home and read some dotsies since i discovered it..

</comment><comment><USER40> This is a very cool effort and method to teach a very silly font/language idea.

</comment><comment><USER41> This is super sweet. I just did the whole thing, now I can read Dotsie!

</comment><comment><USER42> It is fuckin' cool, I really liked that.

</comment><comment><USER43> the density reminds me of chinese

<comment><USER44> No that it's necessary, but I can't see any comment anywhere here or on the dotsies about numbers...

Also - diacriticials. This works fine in English, but pretty much every other place that uses the latin alphabet needs to use some kind of extra marks - even if we ignore the ones that are basically de-facto unused these days.... but in spanish the ´ is rather importnat to indicate emphasis and hence meaning or past tense, the ¨ is used occasionally, and n and ñ are two different letters, rather important if you want to be saying "happy new year" instead of "happy new anus" (año = year)

perhaps an alternate version for different languages? Spanish should be easy considering we only have to take into account ´ and ¨ as a diacritical - <USER2> rest "ll" and 'ñ' are taught in school as separate and distinct letters in the alphabet (as htey relate directly to pronunciation, no exceptions- ll is always a y, ñ is always like "ny" - not sure about the ¨ - it's not used often, and the difference is subtle - though possibly important - common in people's names I think, where you'd want to get it right. - have to look it up.

<comment><AUTHOR> Numbers are unaltered. Optimizing them wouldn't save much space in normal english text, since they're rare.

Hey, new anus is a perfectly respectable holiday.

Here are some examples of accents: <http://dotsies.org/m/#%F8x+isf+%F4x+pt%F2q+xysjhh%E1>.

I'm adding more to the font as they're being requested.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> For what purpose?

<comment><AUTHOR> Mostly for space-efficiency. See <http://dotsies.org> for a better description.

<comment><USER46> Dotsies aren't all that space-efficient, though, when compared to regular old text. For example, in this comparison:

<http://i.imgur.com/Ldd70.png>

I'd argue that the text on the right, in the green font, is just as readable as the dotsies, while taking up less space.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's probably largely because the circuits in your brain have become finely honed on latin characters, after reading letters many millions of times for many years.

It's difficult to know how that image would appear to someone who was equally acclimated to both. At the moment no such person exists.

One clue might be how they compare to each other after you scoot your chair back from your computer until both have become blurry. When you get far enough away that you can't distinguish anything in the green paragraph, can you see any distinguishing characteristics in the red one? You won't be able to make them out, of course, but can you see that there are light and dark areas?

<comment><USER47> I've put about five hours in to this (The magnificent motivating power of procrastinating on something-else-you-need-to-do), and already I feel like I can identify individual dotsie words from a greater distance than I can the Roman words.

So I suspect your thesis may not be entirely unfounded.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Combining AJAX, pushState & CSS3 transitions - <AUTHOR> http://paynedigital.com/2012/01/combining-ajax-pushstate-and-css3-transitions

<comment><USER2> All good until your clients want it to behave the same in IE. Then you have to do ten times the work (hash changes, jQuery animations to replace CSS transitions, etc.)

<http://www.nma.gov.au/av/portmacquarie/>

Still, the end results are sweet.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd hope a bit of gentle education surrounding the pros (i.e. very few, just a slightly slicker effect) Vs the cons (i.e all those you outlined) would make most clients see that it's not worth the effort, in this instance at least. But yeah - I take your point :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If you're using safari and do the two fingered swipe to go back, this doesn't look too great. It's the one thing I don't really like about the cool slide animation you get when you do that.

</comment><comment><USER4> Some nice code there. Have you thought about using less to make the css more readable?

For instance, I use a mixin called border-radius, which is replaced by all the vendor-specifics.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey - I have pondered using less / sass / etc but so far haven't yet had much need (though the repetition required by the theming is perhaps a strong case to start considering it). To be honest, the vast majority of the site's CSS is contained in Twitter's bootstrap framework anyway so up until this point it's not something I'd worried much about :)

<comment><USER4> If you're using bootstrap, it's even better to use less; it includes a load of mixins for things like border-radius etc.

Just @include "bootstrap.less" at the top of your less file, add your rules below and compile just your less file using lessc. Easy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nice. Any reason you're setting "Cache-Control: max-age=0, no-cache, no- store"? (or that could be the proxy server here)

<comment><AUTHOR> None at all actually, that's just a mahoosive oversight on my part. I've been working on lots of server side caching and server optimisation (e.g. mod_pagespeed) and committed the cardinal sin of ignoring the basics. Thanks for pointing it out - one for the issue tracker.</comment></comment>


"Just the Beginning of What We Can Do on Super Nintendo" - <AUTHOR> http://blog.attractmo.de/post/111642896790/this-is-just-the-beginning-of-what-we-can-do-on <comment><USER2> There is a really good Synthwave / occasional SNES artist Mitch Murder from Sweden.

Here some samples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hugowO0sSrM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hugowO0sSrM) (interceptor) or [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WJT0YJwx-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WJT0YJwx-k) (terminator theme) or soundcloud [https://soundcloud.com/daataa](https://soundcloud.com/daataa)

His Interceptor, Snow Crash ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uaJapdiR8M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uaJapdiR8M)), Nocturne ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giPm5SwlW0c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giPm5SwlW0c)), Remember When ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo4C9KpyCCo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo4C9KpyCCo)), Palmer's Arcade ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWRged4EM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWWRged4EM0)) and Ravaged Skies ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lc5NFDKPqQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lc5NFDKPqQ)) tracks are some of my favorites. Great focused coding music.

<comment><USER3> If you like this stuff then checkout

[http://reddit.com/r/futuresynth](http://reddit.com/r/futuresynth)

and [http://redditplaylister.phoenixforgotten.com/](http://redditplaylister.phoenixforgotten.com/) to auto generate a playlist form an arbitrary number of subreddits.

EDIT: by co-incidence Mitch Murder is right at the top at the moment :).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's amazing what's possible on old hardware. My favorite example is probably the remake of the wonderful second reality demo. The original was released in 1993 for the PC ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFv7mHTf0nA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFv7mHTf0nA)). And then there's the C64 version ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gbnlho7w3U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gbnlho7w3U)) which was released 1997.

<comment><USER5> Then you will like Edge of Disgrace, probably the best C64 demo out there... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kJz_XfbxX0)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> In the early 90s during the era of game copiers, people made crack intros for Super Nintendo games and wrote SNES demos. I've been a fan of their music for years since zophar.net used to have an SPC collection (I can't find it on the zophar.net music page anymore, but you can find it from the archive.org version at [https://web.archive.org/web/20070306011147/http://www.zophar...](https://web.archive.org/web/20070306011147/http://www.zophar.net/zsnes/spc/) \-- it's called "Public Domain SPC music"). An easier-to-access example is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOaN9SrR0M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOaN9SrR0M) . As a lot of the work was done by pseudonymous people and it involved underground scenes, it's hard to find reliable history about these groups. However, there's enough homebrew SNES music from that era that I wonder if someone wrote a tracker.

</comment><comment><USER7> What do we know today that we didn't know back then that makes these optimizations possible?

<comment><USER8> We already know how to stream raw 16-bit uncompressed samples at 32KHz [1]; so we have just shy of CD-quality audio already. There's really no way to make things sound better than we have now.

The remaining enhancements are to optimize things: produce better sound while using less ROM space, use less CPU power, and be able to still run as many simultaneous sound effects as possible.

It took a long time to perfect because it's nuanced, but it's not a very complex chip: it's around 20KB of C code to emulate its 32-stage state machine. The only part of the SNES DSP that we don't fully emulate right now is the slight decay rate (in the nanosecond range) involved when the MUTE flag is enabled on a channel. And that's mostly because it's an analog component and we don't have the right people to analyze that sort of thing properly.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_60V8UdYEY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_60V8UdYEY)

<comment><USER9> thank you for sharing byuu a+

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think after spending many many hours as a youth listening to music played on a synth with a particular character and range of timbres (while playing games) you become inured to it.

Music made using that synth just sounds particularly pleasing.

I didnt have a nintendo (so these demos dont really have that effect on me) but I _did_ have a C64, so any music made with the sid chip seems to sound better to me than it ought perhaps.

<comment><USER11> Tangent: I was recently wondering the same about pipe organ music. Its music has a huge effect on me, wonderful sensations that sometimes cover all my body. Never found anything to read about these sensations nor about the impact of exposure to a given kind of music at a young age on how deeply you get to like it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> As cool as the technology behind this is, I'm going to be that guy that is very glad the soundtracks from classic SNES games sound the way they do vs. how this demo sounded.

I guess the point of this is more about how to push the SNES hardware to its limits in ways never done -- and again, that's super cool. But give me the likes of Chrono Trigger, FFIV/VI, and Super Castlevania IV over this any day.

<comment><USER9> it's art, there's no single metric for quality. you can like them both in different ways. it's not a competition. try something new.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I first heard of cTrix from the gamewave podcast, episode 51.

[http://www.gamewavepodcast.com/episodes.html](http://www.gamewavepodcast.com/episodes.html)

His live performance of "Come along" is quite impressive. The "Viva Amiga" film that is sampled hasn't been released yet.

</comment><comment><USER14> yo, ferris here; never thought I'd see this stuff on hacker news! Thanks for all of the kind words! (and some of the less kind ones too, hehe :D)

P.S. ALL YOUR SNES ARE BELONG TO US =D

</comment><comment><USER15> some of the stuff made on the z80 [1] sound chip is killer

[http://freemusicarchive.org/music/download/f7b05ff1cb6ed7425...](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/download/f7b05ff1cb6ed7425258dfb7d6bd05d42832cc37)

[http://freemusicarchive.org/music/download/6b16b446d8b0b8717...](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/download/6b16b446d8b0b871730d918a7c8cfe270a4d51fa)

much more: [http://www.8bitpeoples.com/](http://www.8bitpeoples.com/)

[1] [http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80)

<comment><USER16> Z80 is just a CPU, it doesn't have a sound chip.

<comment><USER15> ah sry, i remember the z80 being mentioned in that context. maybe it was ZX Spectrum's Yamaha AY-3-8912.

[http://www.worldofspectrum.org/projectay/gdmusic.htm](http://www.worldofspectrum.org/projectay/gdmusic.htm)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Impressive audio. Back at the time, it struck me that the MegaDrive/Genesis had a real "harshness" to both its colour pallette and audio when compared to the SNES. Both had lots of great games of course.

<comment><USER18> I'd actually love to see this done on a Genesis. The Genesis had an FM Synthesizer in it's sound chip, made by Yamaha.

The Super Nintendo has a distinctive and pleasant sound that I like, but only outputs a 32khz signal.

I really like projects like these using old sound chips as instruments.

<comment><USER19> I agree, I love FM and will always think good FM or "real chiptunes" are more impressive than good sample-based synthesis, because you can't just lean on your sample library. There are a few Genesis trackers out there, including Deflemask[1], vgmmaker (which sadly, the author took down because he got tired of dealing with unappreciative jerks, so you'll have to Google a bit to find a copy), and YMDj [2] (a "native tracker" that runs on the Genesis itself)

[1] [http://www.delek.com.ar/deflemask](http://www.delek.com.ar/deflemask)

[2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTDiPqkoFnc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTDiPqkoFnc)

A little over a year ago, Titan released a demo for the Genesis called Overdrive, and, well, it's fucking amazing, go watch it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqJm14sHRY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqJm14sHRY)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> also to anyone who wants to hear more about this stuff, I'll be giving a talk about it at NVScene/GTC next month :D

[http://nv.scene.org/2015/speakers/#ferris](http://nv.scene.org/2015/speakers/#ferris) for more info ^^

</comment><comment><USER20> Reading this led me to want to know if there are still people working on new games for the SNES (by hacking the system). Here's a 2014 article on this, in case anyone else is interested.

[http://animalnewyork.com/2014/meet-people-making-new- games-a...](http://animalnewyork.com/2014/meet-people-making-new-games-atari- super-nintendo-virtual-boy/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Henry Homesweet had the first elix track ("Nu") in his 2014 Essential Chip Mix, which is indeed essential: [https://soundcloud.com/henryhomesweet/essential-chip- mix-201...](https://soundcloud.com/henryhomesweet/essential-chip-mix-2014)

<comment><USER21> Good stuff, thanks for sharing!

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> cTrix is one of the most accomplished Chiptune musicians. His recordings are great, but his live shows are where he really shines. This live set from Blip Festival a couple of years ago is exemplary of his best performances: [https://m.soundcloud.com/ctrix/ctrix-live-blip-festival- nyc](https://m.soundcloud.com/ctrix/ctrix-live-blip-festival-nyc)

</comment><comment><USER23> It's pretty cool that cTrix has captured and uploaded these demos for the world to see. Here's his channel where some other elix demos can be seen. "Smash It" is pretty sweet! [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgG3Nvp86j1WaHaLwjoVJZg](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgG3Nvp86j1WaHaLwjoVJZg)

</comment><comment><USER24> > _elix is a two person combo comprised of cTrix, a chiptuner who hails from > the land down under, and ferris, a Norwegian who creates EDM that spans > multiple genres, including chiptunes._

Minor nitpick, but Ferris is an American who lives in Norway.

<comment><USER14> yep, this is true :) I tweeted at the author about that at least

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Nice!! I was unaware of this. Great effort, and fun chip tunes.

</comment><comment><USER26> When are they touring SF?

</comment><comment><USER27> This shit looks worse than normal SNES games. Great work.

</comment><comment><USER28> Damn you Simpsons! The only thing I could think of when I read this was "Hi Super Nintendo Chalmers!"</comment>


Courtyard Marriott in Times Square is Spying on and Manipulating your Internet - <AUTHOR> http://www.metafilter.com/114585/Courtyard-Marriott-in-Times-Square-is-spying-on-and-manipulating-your-Internet <comment><USER2> This is a repost of this <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3804608>

You should follow the guideline to post the source not from the news site.

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

</comment><comment><USER3> Lots of places do this if they have free wi-fi. I think Denver Airport does it (or used to). The Portland city wi-fi thing used to do it. It's annoying, but they have to make a load of cash rather than actually just charging me a few bucks, amirite?

I'd pay $2 to not have to deal with the hassle those ads cause. Easily. And that'd surely be more money than they're making off of me with them.

</comment><comment><USER4> Wouldn't just using HTTPS avoid this?

<comment><USER5> yes, Ghostery (firefox plugin) might stop it also.</comment></comment>