Vitamin D, the Sunshine Supplement, Has Shadowy Money Behind It - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/business/vitamin-d-michael-holick.html <comment><USER2> I'm a board-certified physician (anesthesiology). I read the OP and all the comments here. I've followed the subject of vitamin D supplementation and whether it's generally effective or overused for over 40 years, and I'm still uncertain.

<comment><USER3> Piece of anecdata for you. I take 2000iu of d3 daily, and live in Seattle. I've found when I stop taking d3 it's highly correlated to feelings of depression. Once I realize what's going on, if I start taking it again usually the depression starts to lift within days.

Now that said, it's not clear to me that it's causitive, since usually when I stop taking my dose, it's because I've run out, and it's very possible my not having time or interest to get more means I may have already started down the depressed path, and I may already be recovering when I finally start taking care of myself.

In any event I don't seem to get the really dark depressions I got before taking d3 and I don't dare stop taking it intentionally. Even if it's largely placebo the cost and risk seem very small conpared to my perceived benefits.

<comment><USER4> Alas, such anecdotes are not helpful to the question at hand. There's nothing wrong with taking placebo or the approach that you have as an individual, but you have to be aware that there's no way that you could ever know if there was a causative relationship without a double blind placebo controlled study... which is not something you can realistically do on yourself!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Supplementing vitamin D has had a large impact on my life. A couple years ago, I frequently felt lethargic and was always getting sick. I randomly got a blood test, and it said that everything was fine except my vitamin D levels, which were at 7 ng/ml (!!), when the recommendation is 20-30+ ng/ml. Within the first two weeks of supplementing vitamin D, my health went back to normal.

The same thing happened to one of my friends earlier this year. He started getting all sorts of weird diseases when he used to never get sick. After getting a blood test and learning his vitamin D levels were low, he started taking it and he hasn't gotten sick since.

So even if there is big money behind it, I think it's worth getting tested if you spend a lot of time indoors.

<comment><USER6> My experience after testing very deficient and megadosing D3 for a few months was that I noticed absolutely no change.

I will thus cut down on supplementation to avoid vascular calcification.

<comment><USER7> > I will thus cut down on supplementation to avoid vascular calcification.

Current good practice is to also supplement with vitamin K when taking D. This is to promote carboxylation of osteocalcin, so calcium is directed into bones rather than soft tissues[1].

[1] [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5613455/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5613455/)

<comment><USER8> An editorial arguing from animal models is not "current good practice".

Additionally, please no one take vitamin K supplements without speaking with your physician first. They're a direct reversal agent for a class of anticoagulants, the prime example of which is warfarin. It'd suck if you accidentally had a stroke or pulmonary embolism because of a random internet comment.

<comment><USER7> I'd go further and say you that, if you're on medication, you shouldn't take _any_ supplements without first checking with your doctor.

With regards to vitamin K, all the versions of the supplement I've seen have a specific warning on the bottle that they're not to be used if you're also taking anticoagulants.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The article makes the money sound evil, but I'm just not seeing the evil here. $1000/mo to a doctor? So what?

The treatment is probably a little ahead of the science, but the answer to that is better science.

It makes sense to me that people get less sun than before, and therefore have lower and less consistent vitamin D levels. It doesn't feel unnatural to me... I think of it more like a replacement of what we lose by staying indoors more.

<comment><USER10> There's the principle of neutrality and objectivity which is extremely important in science, especially when lives are at stake.

1000 a month may indeed not be a huge sum for a doctor, but it is not nothing, and one has to wonder what exactly is being bought here.

<comment><USER11> Especially considering medicine has a long history of being co-opted by money.

There was a time when doctors were paid to push cigarettes by cigarette companies.

[https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/throwback-thursday- wh...](https://www.adweek.com/brand-marketing/throwback-thursday-when-doctors- prescribed-healthy-cigarette-brands-165404/)

And of course in recent times, pharma was able to convince doctors to push addictive painkillers to patients.

A healthy skepticism is a good thing in science.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Living in the Pacific Northwest, working an office job, it is quite possible to go 6 or 7 months and not have the sun touch your skin.

Taking a mid-winter break to someplace sunny gives a distinct feeling if physical wellness and energy.

Denying that vitamin D is important seems silly when people who are indoors so often feel remarkably better after spending even just a few hours outside in the sun.

<comment><USER13> >Denying that vitamin D is important seems silly when people who are indoors so often feel remarkably better after spending even just a few hours outside in the sun.

The two things are not exactly the same, however.

If you feel better after a mid-winter break in a sunny place, maybe it is because the mid-winter break in a sunny place or a few hours outside do good, and you should do that.

Staying in a non-sunny environment indoors and taking vitamin D might (or might not) provide the same wellness.

I guess it is the same thing with meal substitutes, maybe (though I doubt it) we have arrived to a point where we could take a single pill or gulp a dose of some (possibly terribly tasting) high-tech mush containing all that is needed, but maybe sitting at a table, making a pause for half an hour, eating some good tasting food, sniffing its aroma, etc. are the things that actually do the good.

<comment><USER14> I've had first-hand experience of something that's been discussed elsewhere: a lack of omega 3 fatty acids and vitamin D3 itself may be associated with heavy sunburns and sun _allergy_ (itchy skin, runny nose etc right as you're out in the sun, and not caused by fragrances or cold air).

I'm not able to look up studies for this right now so I'm just going by my own experience and other anecdotal reports, but it's a kind of circular dependency that intrigues me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I was tested for vitamins D two years ago and was found to be low. I was told to take an OTC supplement. That test was covered by Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance. I've taken some here and there.

This year, my wife and I got tested again...new insurance (Aetna) and it wasn't covered. We have different doctors, so to the point of the article, doctors are asking for the tests more now. My range is nornal. I don't feel a huge difference, but admittedly I did at first, but could be placebo effect.

So three gripes.

1)Not knowing a test isn't covered before a test is executed

2)Doctors performing test that may not be necessary (per the article)?

3) There is no medical consensus on what is 'nornal'...and the range ised by Quest borders what can be doable?!

Also, my dad who is on medicare got tested too, for the first time last year. He was low. He lives in South Florida and gets plenty of sun from being outdoors.

Sigh.

<comment><USER16> If you really want to get the test, you can do it yourself online (usingonline lab test sites) - at least in most states in the US - cost of the D3 blood test is only about $40 if you pay out of pocket. You basically buy the test and arrange a blood draw at a local Quest Diagnostics / LabCorp. The lab then sends you the results directly via email.

If you want you can then bring that to your doctor for guidance

<comment><USER15> That's rather interesting. From Google, I guess you're referring to a site like directlabs.com or www.healthlabs.com?

The 'contract rated' for my test ($30?) was less than the pricing those sites are offering, but at least good to know for future if I want to do it outside the doctors visit.

<comment><USER16> yeah, basically sites like that. Like you state - a good option if you want to do it outside a doctors visit to check on levels

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> open-source-ux Official health guidelines in the UK recommended an average daily intake of 10 micrograms of vitamin D to protect bone and muscle health.

These recommendations are based on a scientific review of the available evidence on Vitamin D and health published in 2016:

Vitamin D and Health: Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition [PDF]: [https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/537616/SACN_Vitamin_D_and_Health_report.pdf)

The press release that accompanied the publication of the report states:

> PHE (Public Health England) advises that in spring and summer, the majority > of the population get enough vitamin D through sunlight on the skin and a > healthy, balanced diet. During autumn and winter, everyone will need to rely > on dietary sources of vitamin D. Since it is difficult for people to meet > the 10 microgram recommendation from consuming foods naturally containing or > fortified with vitamin D, people should consider taking a daily supplement > containing 10 micrograms of vitamin D in autumn and winter.

> People whose skin has little or no exposure to the sun, like those in > institutions such as care homes, or who always cover their skin when > outside, risk vitamin D deficiency and need to take a supplement throughout > the year. Ethnic minority groups with dark skin, from African, Afro- > Caribbean and South Asian backgrounds, may not get enough vitamin D from > sunlight in the summer and therefore should consider taking a supplement all > year round.

From: [https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-new- advice-...](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-new-advice-on- vitamin-d)

</comment><comment><USER17> Another anecdotal account. I started practicing MMA and somehow in the first two month itself had minor fractures three times and not from doing something very dangerous. I was worried about my bone health, so I went to consult a doctor and he found my Vitamin D levels to be 9 IU. After supplementing for a few months the number shot up and I felt better overall(though this might have been just placebo effect).

</comment><comment><USER18> The treatment of Tuberculosis involves long courses of antibiotics and drug resistant TB is becoming common. Often what helps is time in the sun. (This doesn't always happen)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5684962/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5684962/)

</comment><comment><USER19> My experience is that whenever I have tried to increase Vit D level above 30+ng/ml I have got severe iron deficiency anemia. High dose vit D depletes Vit A, bio available copper, iron and potassium. Some info on the dark side of Vit D. [https://mindbodynetwork.com/article/the-darker-side-of- suppl...](https://mindbodynetwork.com/article/the-darker-side-of- supplementing-vitamin-d)

</comment><comment><USER20> Anecdotally, vitamin D has worked to eliminate or strongly moderate gout amongst a group of aquaintances. Definitely worth a try if you suffer from this.

</comment><comment><USER21> One thing I discovered recently is that the most common vitamin D test significantly undercounts D2, although there is another test that is more accurate in that case (I'm guessing it is also more expensive). Since D2 is added to a number of processed foods these days, many people who test low with the common test may not actually be low.

</comment><comment><USER22> I had been experiencing joint pain for months and had a vitamin D test done which showed my levels at 11. After taking an 8 week treatment of superdoses, my joint pain was gone and D levels were in normal (25) range. Vitamin D is very important for people who work in offices all day and don't get enough sunlight.

</comment><comment><USER23> Vitamin D is mainly problematic when low or insufficient, as is the case with many other nutrients. 40-60 ng/mL 25(OH)D is a commonly preferred range. It can have positive effects at higher serum levels (>70 ng/mL, with >90 ng/mL being even better) when trying to heal.

</comment><comment><USER24> The amount of faith in vitamin d is rather high. I'm not sure this reads nefariously yet, but it is hard not to think something is getting oversold when my doctor just assumes I need more of it. Didn't even test, just recommended.

So, color me shocked that we are finding that it is no panacea. Shocked.

<comment><USER9> I think doctors recommend it because most people get less sun than our ancestors, and supplementing is cheap and low-risk.

Kind of like saying "eat more vegetables" without bothering to ask you about your diet first.

<comment><USER25> Vitamin D supplements cant be takes as "vegetables" as high dosage is toxic.

<comment><USER26> What makes you think a high dose of "vegetables" isn't toxic?

<comment><USER27> You can even kill yourself by drinking water. Ten liters I think it was ;)

<comment><USER28> [http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html](http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html)

<comment><USER27> Nice page, but [http://m.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/content/17/3/263.full](http://m.clinmed.rcpjournal.org/content/17/3/263.full)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> interesting this article doesn't mention any of the history of how virtually all milk bought in stores (in the US at least...) has vitamin D added to it as well.

</comment><comment><USER30> Why bother when there's an easy alternative? I absolutely hate doctors when they see that you're low on X, they advise you to take X supplement.</comment>


WikiLeaks releases Trade in Services Agreement (TiSA) documents - <AUTHOR> https://wikileaks.org/tisa/ <comment><USER2> As a citizen of an EU state, I'd say that the whole TISA thing looks like the rules that EU imposes on the EU member-states: non-discrimination against other member-state entities and limitations and/or requirements for local regulations. Also another similarity: there is almost zero-to-none chance for a member state to get out of EU - the cost would be just too big. Once TISA is signed it will be very hard to get out.

As our brief EU history has taught us: mostly the rules are good. But when they are not, there needs to be a way to amend them. The problem with TISA seems to be that once signed it puts most of the decision-making process into hands of people that were not elected by the people.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Press partners: Libération (fr) [0], l'Espresso (it) [1], Publico (es) [2] and Médiapart (fr) [3].

[0] [http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/05/25/de-nouveaux- docu...](http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/05/25/de-nouveaux-documents- devoilent-les-coulisses-du-traite-tisa_1455038)

[1] [http://espresso.repubblica.it/internazionale/2016/05/25/news...](http://espresso.repubblica.it/internazionale/2016/05/25/news/wikileaks- svela-documenti-sul-tisa-cosi-lobby-e-multinazionali-cambieranno-le-nostre- vite-1.267259)

[2] [http://www.publico.es/internacional/cincuenta-paises-dan- vue...](http://www.publico.es/internacional/cincuenta-paises-dan-vuelta- tuerca.html)

[3] [https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/250516/libre-...](https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/international/250516/libre- echange-avec-tisa-les-multinationales-reclament-un-droit-de-veto-sur-les- etats)

<comment><USER3> Is anglophone press sleeping?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is when I appreciate journalists who read through all these documents and summarize the important parts, and analyze the interesting implications for me.

<comment><USER5> Surprising that Wikileaks doesn't do this too.

<comment><USER6> They did? There's expert analysis on the linked page. More in depth than a newspaper article, but more accessible than legalese.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> So corporations are owning, influencing, and dictating a greater portion of our world? Without the knowledge of the governed? The worse part is that corporations are trying to "domesticate" parts of the world where they do not reside simply for an isolated goal of profitability.

I normally like trade partnerships because it spreads a common set of laws for companies to operate within across regions, but I do not like it when the end goal is provincial in nature.

</comment><comment><USER2> A chapter on SOE (State Owned Enterprises) seems mainly targeted at China and other state-controlled economies. It basically prevents SOEs to discriminate against other entities (private owned and/or foreign) when buying/selling products/services.

In western world SOEs do majority of business via tenders, where they are already prohibited to discriminates based on non-business related reasons.

See "A snapshot of the TISA annex": [https://wikileaks.org/tisa/Annex-on- State-Owned-Enterprises/...](https://wikileaks.org/tisa/Annex-on-State-Owned- Enterprises/analysis/page-1.html)

In all honesty, it does not look like a doomsday scenario.

<comment><USER8> It takes 5 minutes of reading analysis provided on the WikiLeaks page to have a heart attack.

>The US TISA proposal only applies to SOEs at central government level. This was a controversial issue in the TPPA, 15 where each party designated which, if any, rules would apply to the sub-central government level. 16 As a result, the US and other federal jurisdicons whose states or provinces own SOEs have less exposure than countries with a unitary system of government. >New SOEs may need to be created because of market, policy, social or regulatory failure, or because a government rejects the neoliberal model for some or all such actvites. In most instances where new SOEs are created they need special support, at least initally, and may need to adopt measures that favour local services rms or other 'non-commercial' practces to meet their objectves. There is no provision for this kind of future-proofng in the Annex (and only limited in the TPPA 23).

Reading the rest of it is even worse. In Poland we had private post service win a contract for most of official gov-to-people mail by severely undercutting SOE post office. They did it by employing almost all of the shitty BS ways one can come up with: temp work (almost show up and get a bag of mail style), almost no physical presence (for official mail/court notices!), outright falsification of delivery status (FOR COURT MAIL) After half a year people were so pissed that they lost the contract Those annexes at least in part will let them get away with it. Sure, it would be nice to stop some of the extreme protectionism (cough, France, cough), but those rules are just downright horrible in practice

<comment><USER2> You are mixing different stuff together:

>In most instances where new SOEs are created they need special support, at least initally, and may need to adopt measures that favour local services rms or other 'non-commercial' practies to meet their objectves.

      If SOA needs "special support" (this usually means some kind of monopoly and inflated prices) and commercial entity does not (in order to deliver same product/service at same price), why would you want to have a SOE?

>After half a year people were so pissed that they lost the contract. Those annexes at least in part will let them get away with it.

      In your words: a local company lost a contract with the government because they did not deliver. How is TISA going to change that exactly?

<comment><USER9> _a local company lost a contract with the government because they did not deliver. How is TISA going to change that exactly?_

The GP is pointing out a case where "opening the market" resulted in a significant loss of service. TISA isn't going to change that, TISA is going to enable that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm glad this came out. Now there should be more concrete information to use in lobbying against these nasty deals WIP.

</comment><comment><USER11> From the Liberation article [0] (which has a strong French bias):

\- France has stopped further negotiations with the US regarding TTIP as the US do not seem to be willing to give enough in return

\- TISA has now been leaked, although discussions started in March, 2013

\- the official aim of TISA is to reduce barriers to competition in the name of growth and employment, by supposedly treating local and international operators the same

\- the implicit aim of TISA would be to counter China's economic threat on the international scene

\- supporters of TISA (once accepted) would supposedly force members of the World Trade Organisation to adopt the agreement, yet China, Brasil, Russia and India are all members of the WTO

\- some recent amendments to TISA ask for less regulations from member states to remove some of the constraints encountered by foreign actors, this would have a substantial impact on industries such as mining, energy, large infrastructures, IT, etc.

\- other amendments ask for foreign companies to not be required to have a local branch in in member states where they do business, which may override/impede on national rights

\- TISA would require state-owned enterprises to behave as private actors in foreign countries and prevent them from favouring local business (local or national suppliers and clients)

\- the above point also suggests that if a member country's public companies represent more than 30% of its economy, other countries can ask other members of the agreement to refuse to support said country through non-commercial means (e.g. cancellation of debts, donations, preferential loan, etc.). This is ostensibly a way to impede on the competitive advantage of countries like China which have strong government support

\- TISA would aim to globalize and commodify health services to open the market to health corporations and insurance companies in countries where healthcare is provided by the state or welfare organisations [1]

\- TISA aims to establish procedures for the confidential exchange of documents on a need-to-know basis (up to four years after the agreement goes through). While the exchange of documents may be confidential, participating members would be allowed to transfer the documents on non-secure channels and keep them on systems that are not subject to special security measures

\- the agreement is criticized for aggressively supporting business and competition, while ignoring the "public service" aspect of the agreement

I may have skipped some things but I think that about covers it.

[0] [http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/05/25/de-nouveaux- docu...](http://www.liberation.fr/planete/2016/05/25/de-nouveaux-documents- devoilent-les-coulisses-du-traite-tisa_1455038)

[1] The actual details come from [https://data.awp.is/international/2015/02/04/22.html](https://data.awp.is/international/2015/02/04/22.html)

</comment><comment><USER12> I feel like that cartoon is a bit too racist.</comment>


Using Encryption and Authentication Correctly - <AUTHOR> https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/05/using-encryption-and-authentication-correctly?resubmit=true <comment><USER2> This is good. I'd move the "Cryptographic Doom Principle" earlier in the article. I'd make it clearer that even though "encryption" and "authentication" provide two different "services", _you can 't have encryption without message authentication_. Also: I'd consider developing examples with CTR instead of CBC.

<comment><USER3> Why would you prefer CTR over CBC (assuming properly authenticated)? The only benefit I could think of is performance.

<comment><AUTHOR> CTR saves you the trouble of padding your plaintext before encrypting, thus eliminating an entire class of cryptography attacks (i.e. padding oracles). The security margins of CBC and CTR are otherwise similar.

GCM is far more preferred to either CBC or CTR because it's less for the implementer to screw up.

NaCl's ChaCha20-Poly1305 is even better, because it's fast and constant-time.

'cperciva made the CTR+HMAC recommendation here: [http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2009-06-11-cryptographic- rig...](http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2009-06-11-cryptographic-right- answers.html)

Properly authenticated encryption that uses CBC+HMAC-SHA2 with PKCS7 padding is probably okay, but new developments _should_ prefer AEAD modes above all else, and CTR+HMAC-SHA2 if no AEAD modes are available.

(The kind folks in ##crypto on freenode have pointed out to me that CTR also allows random-access decryption, where CBC mode does not. We haven't ever implemented this feature and cannot comment on it.)

<comment><USER2> Be very careful with random-access CTR.

<comment><USER4> Could you please point to an explanation why random access CTR decryption is dangerous? Or why it's more or less secure than random access CBC decryption?

Or is random access CTR encryption dangerous? I don't see how, unless you reuse the keystream / make it a two-time pad.

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/06/27/streamingencryptio...](https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/06/27/streamingencryption.html)

Thomas's answer probably has to do with the risks of decrypting a stream and being unable to authenticate it first. (See also: the Cryptographic Doom Principle.)

<comment><USER4> But it is still safe to do random access AES-CTR if you've already checked the MAC. Random access is not a problem, decrypting before authenticating is a problem.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think that's why the statement was "be careful with" rather than "don't"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> crypto.stackex has an interesting discussion on EtM and MtE: [http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/202/should-we- mac-...](http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/202/should-we-mac-then- encrypt-or-encrypt-then-mac) One interesting take away was, Bruce Schneier is of opinion that MtE (Cryptographic Doom acc to Moxie) is more practical than EtM.

Interesting to note that different security protocols on the Internet prefer different schemes:

        1. SSH does Encrypt and MAC
        2. SSL uses MtE
        3. IPSec prefers EtM

Also see: Authenticating users over REST [http://restcookbook.com/Basics/loggingin/](http://restcookbook.com/Basics/loggingin/) which glances at the details not covered by the blog post (using nonce to prevent replay attacks, for instance).

<comment><USER2> Bruce Schneier was wrong about MtE. This isn't so much a matter of opinion as it is (a) the currently prevailing theory in academic cryptography, at least when it comes to generic composition, and (b) the clear verdict of the last 10 years of crypto vulnerabilities.

Just writing this to be clear: it's not a debate. Ignore Schneier on this. In his defense: the most notable things he wrote about MtE were written before this was well-understood.

<comment><USER6> Actually Rogaway's new AEZ proposal for CAESAR has a sort of MtE: [http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/aez/aez.pdf](http://web.cs.ucdavis.edu/~rogaway/aez/aez.pdf)

The "MAC" here is just a block of zeros, and if decryption successfully reveals such a block of zeros, then it's deemed authentic.

This is a pretty specific quality to their construction though, and it doesn't really work elsewhere.

<comment><USER2> Yep. "Generic composition" (taking independently designed MACs and cipher modes and rolling your own AE) is my cop-out in case 'pbsd shows up to correct me.

Generally, though, and without intending snark:

If you're discussing MTE v ETM, and Bruce Schneier comes up, the answer is ETM.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Picking the right customer support tool - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@scffld/picking-the-right-customer-support-tool-25674898bbf0

<comment><USER2> "Because better customer service creates better businesses."

It's amazing how that doesn't resonate very often with businesses. Robo- replies and being assigned ticket numbers tells me quickly that the support organization in a company already failed.

What pisses me off the most is when I get a robo-reply with a ticket # and I don't hear back till 2 days later, via an obvious generic templated response (with some variables like my name added in) - and more than likely the response is way too generic and doesn't solve my problem.</comment>


The Truth About Pepe the Frog and the Cult of Kek - <AUTHOR> https://pepethefrogfaith.wordpress.com/ <comment><USER2> For reference (this post is clearly mimicking the format): [https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/donald-trump-pepe-the- fr...](https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/donald-trump-pepe-the-frog-and- white-supremacists-an-explainer/)

and: [http://i.imgur.com/Pe27DXI.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/Pe27DXI.jpg)

My best explanation for Pepe is sort of a collective Baader Meinhof where 10,000 trolls spending a million hours posting Pepe memes eventually piece together a semi-coherent mythology via a vast trawl through frog symbological history.

It is sort of painfully funny that serious organizations like SPLC and the Clinton campaign have seemingly fallen for an intentional trolling effort. [1]

[1] [http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/14/heres-how-two-twitter- pran...](http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/14/heres-how-two-twitter-pranksters- convinced-the-world-that-pepe-the-frog-meme-is-just-a-front-for-white- nationalism/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The weird confluence of Donald Trump, Egyptology, Numerology, and Korean gaming culture. This is too weird to not post. Say what you will about the alt-right and 2016, this is a brilliant exposition on a curious eddy in the current of the national mood. Where it goes is nearly incredible.

<comment><USER3> This is not incredible or brilliant. This is a teenager trying to sound important.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Quality meme, top kek. I'm doing this right, yes?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good question. Some might say yes -- but would then be accused of all sorts of heresy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> What a bullshit article. The author clearly has no idea what the hell they're talking about.

Pepe the frog belongs to the cancer that is /pol/ no more so than pictures with captions using Impact font superimposed over them. The only reason pepe is associated with /pol/ and Trump is because they both originated on 4chan as memes. The Trump versions of pepe comics are only a minority fraction of the many different permutations of the meme, ranging from "smug pepe" to "rare pepes."

</comment><comment><USER6> Pepe the Frog is a Matt Furie creation and it's a real shame what's happened to it.

<comment><USER7> Although Matt Furie himself seems to be neutral/amused by it: [http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/its- not-...](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/its-not-easy- being-green/499892/)

He seems to have a really refreshing point of view. My impression is that he seems to feel that the things people do with the character are reflections on society at large and he's interested to watch them.

From the article:

Serwer: How do you feel about the way it's been adopted by the so-called alt- right?

Furie: My feelings are pretty neutral, this isn't the first time that Pepe has been used in a negative, weird context. I think it's just a reflection of the world at large. The internet is basically encompassing some kind of mass consciousness, and Pepe, with his face, he's got these large, expressive eyes with puffy eyelids and big rounded lips, I just think that people reinvent him in all these different ways, it's kind of a blank slate. It's just out of my control, what people are doing with it, and my thoughts on it, are more of amusement.

<comment><USER8> It'll be interesting to watch the evolution of this meme as it grows. As Matt says, it started as a blank slate. Pepe was not exclusively used by /pol/ and the alt-right. But now I wonder if the attention being drawn to it now might fixate the meme to the political implications. Will Pepe continue to be the blank slate it once was? If it does then it shows how internet memes are inherently uncontrollable. But on the other hand, this accidental relationship with a particular ideology could cause Pepe to fall out of favor with people who want to avoid that association. That would demonstrate how the influence of mainstream media can direct and distort public opinion.

I suppose the third alternative is that for a short time Pepe will be stuck with the right-wing implications. Then later on will see a revival after the memory of today's events fades. Mainstream media will win the battle, but the anonymous masses win the war.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> TLDR: Internet shit bags make something out of nothing to defend/explain/support their love and devotion for an orange hitler.

Next up: Americans write September 11 as 9/11 so the twin towers was an inside job by the police and fire department.

Give me a fucking break.

<comment><USER10> Kek fuel can't melt steel memes.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Is email the new fax? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> No. Fax is a specific communication medium where you can send physical documents to others, and was replaced by email because email was a general communication medium that was more accessible (everyone had it), and didn't have as high costs to accessibility especially for non business users (fax machine).

The current trend is actually the reverse: general communication is being replaced by specific communication that is better suited for the type of communication it is. Social, pictures, group chat, business collaboration, negotiation/agreement, etc - email CAN function as the medium but is not ideal, whereas the apps that replace email streamline the communication experience.

<comment><USER3> I've been wishing we'd come out with a few new email expectations, like email in json format or something. It sounds insane I know, but right now all email is human intended, right? Yet, I _love_ the distributed medium over email.. I want more of it.

I realized I want more when, a while back, I saw someone working on a social network over email. I realized that it's a brilliantly low-tech solution to a problem people are trying to solve in fairly complex and inventive ways _(like Scuttlebutt)_. Social network posts as email would be an interesting approach to the problem.

Back to my original statement, data emails would allow users to carry a pile of application data (like their social net feed) with them. Since email is something federated, backup-able, migrate-able, etc - users would own their own data. I like that idea.

Fundamentally I love the idea of email. I do of course have reservations with the idea of introducing non-human oriented emails, but I hope you _(reader)_ can look past that and onto the intent - offering slightly more feature to a robust, tried and true platform.

I say "slightly more" with care. Lest we make email a steaming pile of innovation like we always do.

<comment><USER2> This is why I was so in love with Google wave, and so disappointed in it's result.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> In the sense that it's not used as widely, except in certain circumstances? No way! Email is here to stay for a long, long time (maybe even beyond the lifespan of anyone reading this in 2018). Even if person-to-person communication has shifted to different apps and platforms (like Facebook or Telegram or WhatsApp or Snapchat or Instagram or Google+ or what have you), communications within companies and communications from companies to customers, potential customers, suppliers and others, are cases of large scale regular use of email — as a communication platform and an archival platform.

</comment><comment><USER5> Yes. We have our Exchange system setup that if we have 'SECURE' in the title it will check if we TLS agreement with the receiving server. If we do, we'll send the email through with encryption. If not, the receiver is required to sign-up for our secure web service and then use a one-time code to download the file.

We do limit the file size of what we'll send in encryption. But does someone really need a 3 gig PDF?

We really only keep fax for government requirements and the few outliers that will not cut the phone cord. We were getting some many junk faxes we had to implement a white-list.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes, it is the new fax, in a good way.

I wish everyone would stop trying to disrupt it.

</comment><comment><USER7> Every "competitor" has the same problem: No federation and walled garden. Email is compatible with every programming language, device, operating system ... you name it. It's the most compatible system there is. Try sending a message from Slack to Whatsapp for comparison.

</comment><comment><USER8> As in dated technology that is still chugging along? Yes.

As in terms of usage? No.

I still have to fax things to the government, and I have no idea why. For example, I had to fax an old tax return to California Franchise Tax Board, but they would only accept mail or fax.

And I never scan something and email it. Even banks went straight past email check deposits to smart phone photo check deposit. I put pictures on the web. I text things way more. I use Google Docs, Drive, DropBox, or the cloud for about everything else.

<comment><USER9> > _... but they would only accept mail or fax._

It's because the USPS (and FedEx, UPS, et al.) and fax are considered "secure" methods of transmission for confidential or private information (including PHI).

E-mail is not, because it travels over the public Internet.

<comment><USER10> But technically it's just as insecure, if not more - email has opportunistic encryption, fax doesn't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It's the new (old) fax since the 90s.

</comment><comment><USER12> Whoever argues that Slack is the new thing, I give you this

        > sudo ps_mem | grep slack
        564.3 MiB +  72.4 MiB = 636.8 MiB	slack (5)

I run it because I have to, but I really hate how bloated it is, and how the background color (white) cannot be changed.

Usually end up running "xcalib -i -a" (invert colors) before switching to slack.</comment>


Conferences should help hackers get rich, not hack more - <AUTHOR> http://thebln.com/2010/08/amazing-event-and-not-one-of-ours-business-of-software-boston-october-4th-6th/

<comment><USER2> Nice advertisement.

Can a moderator please change the title to the real title? 95% of the content is specific to this one conference, yet the title is about conferences in general.

It doesn't explore the idea that conferences should help hackers get rich at all. It has one sentence that more-or-less states that and then goes on and on about how great this particular conference is.

<comment><AUTHOR> I love the idea of this particular conference as the people I know that have been to it, including the guys at, for example Rapportive, came back from it with completely different views on the world and have been able to put a lot of what they learned into their businesses.

That is, in my view, a good thing, and something that should be flagged. If you think that is an advert, fair enough but I am honestly not aware of any international class events that focus on the process of creating sustainable businesses for this community. (There are obviously lots of tech events and lots of events about raising venture capital). I would love to be taught otherwise. I thought the idea of this list was to highlight things that the hacking community and entrepreneurs will find useful. Some will, some won't.

<comment><USER2> I'm fine with it being submitted. I'm not fine with it being submitted under the title "Conferences should help hackers get rich, not hack more", which makes it sound like a general blog post about conferences.

Much more fitting is the real title, "Amazing event (and not one of ours!). Business of Software, Boston, October 4th-6th".

Now, that's not a great title for submitting to HN, so I could see changing that to "Business of Software conference focuses on helping hackers get rich, not hack more" or something. But trying to pass it off as a general article when it's not is clear link-bait.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I see a lot of conferences each year and the Business of Software Conference was by far the best one that I saw last year.

For the people here on Hacker News, it's a major alternative viewpoint on entrepreneurship. A very large number of articles that get posted here are tainted in some way by venture capital. There's not nearly as much advice from bootstrapped and owner-operated businesses.

I went into the 2010 BoS conference wondering if 37signals was an outlier in the owner-operated world. But after talking to a lot of the software businesses there I realized there are many successes. I asked one guy how big his business was, expecting him to respond with a number of employeers--his answer was $100M.

Also, the speakers last year were fantastic. Instead of having to choose between several tracks filled with un-rehearsed, amateur speakers, BoS gives you a single track of mostly keynote level speakers.

</comment><comment><USER4> Hackers usually prioritise other stuff (eg: cool hacks) over monetization, hence the allure of hacker centric conferences.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very fair but I think the point of this conference is that hackers can learn business and then do other stuff and buy a Ferrari if they want to.

Business people can't learn technology so guess who holds the power?

(Although I don't believe people are put on earth to be rich. That would of course be crass).

<comment><USER5> > Business people can't learn technology so guess who holds the power?

That's incredibly obtuse thinking. Becoming a successful entrepreneur is not as simple as 'learning business'.

While some of the best entrepreneurs are hackers at heart because they think outside the box, many hackers are not entrepreneur material, they'd rather be tinkering with stuff that interests _them_ , and for many hackers, business doesn't.

<comment><USER6> It takes a lot longer to become a truly proficient hacker than most 'business' people of an equivalent age have had doing 'business stuff'. So the ground is less for hackers to make up when learning and gaining business experience than vice-versa.

<comment><USER5> I disagree. To be good in business, you need experience, which comes with time and mistakes.

Hacking imho either comes naturally or it doesn't. If you can't see the appeal of an apparently pointless activity eg. code golf, then you're probably not a hacker, and never will be.

This doesn't mean you won't be a good entrepreneur - if anything it could even help; since you don't waste time on silly (but fun for a hacker) things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> great speaker lineup!

price a little too steep for my tastes at $2000

<comment><USER8> Perhaps what is needed is a conference about raising money for hackers to be able to attend these conferences.</comment></comment>


Hundreds 'Rickrolled' in Campus Prank at Cornell - <AUTHOR> http://cornellsun.com/2017/11/10/hundreds-rickrolled-in-mysterious-campus-prank-at-cornell/ <comment><USER2> An even more evil version, dated early 80s or even earlier, used cmos counters and gates to make a piezo buzzer emit a cricket like sound (1). The evil touch was adding a photoresistor and a timer circuit, so that it kept inactive until there was dark, then it waited for like 10 minutes and started chirping, only to stop immediately as long as someone would turn on the lights. That made it the best prank to hide in someone's dorm room: super hard to locate and awfully annoying:)

(1) a realistic cricket chirp can be made by driving an oscillator using 3 or more outputs of a binary divider; a cd4060 could be used alone by setting the internal oscillator to a few KHz frequency, then sending it to an amp (bjt, mosfet etc) keyed combining some of the 4060 binary divider outputs, so that the continuous tone becomes an intermittent chirp.

<comment><USER3> This is quite possibly the most evil benign prank I've ever seen. I'd like to give a wink and a finger gun point to the person who thought of this. Are there other things like this that one could do to spice things up at the office? I like pranks like this where nobody gets hurt physically.

<comment><USER4> My all time favorite prank is getting harder to do but it is still possible.

Back in the day, most people had full size umbrellas. When it looked like rain in the morning, they would take their umbrella in to work and hang it by the handle on the wall of their cubicle.

I would loosen the umbrella (partially open while holding upside down), put hole punch chad in the umbrella, and then re-close the umbrella and hang it back up.

If it was raining at the end of the day, you knew you got the victim by the hole punch chad at the door. :-D If it wasn't raining, you knew it was just a matter of time. :-D

With the compact umbrellas, it is harder to get access to sneak chads into them and hole punch chad is somewhat harder to come by.

<comment><USER3> I haven't been this excited to talk about Chads since the election, this was a pleasure to read!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > The devices seem like they are handmade, said Dennison, who was in the > Statler lounge when Simcox found the device. "Some person smarter than I am > is manufacturing those out of their dorm room," she posited.

[https://pedroliska.wordpress.com/2015/07/13/building-your- ow...](https://pedroliska.wordpress.com/2015/07/13/building-your-own-annoy-a- tron-with-an-attiny85/)

EDIT: Code for those who don't want to read the article: [https://github.com/pedroliska/ATtiny85/blob/master/watchdog-...](https://github.com/pedroliska/ATtiny85/blob/master/watchdog- wake/watchdog-wake.ino)

With great power comes great responsibility, friends.

<comment><USER6> The parts are MUCH cheaper on digikey. Everything but the programmer and the protoboards is like half as much.

Also, I just ordered enough to make 10 of these. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> On the 33c3 (last year's Chaos Communication Congress in Hamburg), some folks brought their self made directional loudspeaker, mounted on a camera tripod. They set it up so it hit the ceiling right above an escalator, so everybody on the escalator was rickrolled, but only for like 2-3 seconds. Short enough to get confused, but not long enough to be sure it was actually meant for them.

At the top of the escalator was a growing crowd of confused people looking around for what the hell did just happen ;-)

</comment><comment><USER8> When I was at Cornell in the mid 2000s, one of the frats did a prank similar to this--though all it took was a roll of quarters. They loaded up the jukebox in the Ivy Room with quarters and set it to play Chumbawumba's "Tubthumping" on repeat. The brilliance was that the song faded out for about 30 seconds and with all of the noise in the dining hall, it sounded like the madness had finally ended. And then it would start again...

<comment><USER9> I used to go to a bar that had a 30 minute jethro tull song on the jukebox. It was internet connected and I could pay for songs from home. They eventually unplugged the thing.

<comment><USER10> My brother-in-law has Down Syndrome and is a sincere Rick Astley fan. (He went to a show in February and got a t-shirt signed, which he still wears.) He uses a jukebox app to play songs at one of our regular bars, and more often than not ends up picking Never Gonna Give You Up before the night is over. Every time I'm afraid to look around because I know everyone in the bar is eyeing each other wondering who the asshole is.

<comment><USER11> You know what, joking aside, I like Rick Astley, and "Never Gonna Give You Up" isn't a bad song, as pop songs go.

<comment><USER12> He's got a great sense of humor about it too. He live Rick Rolled the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade on a day so cold he had to do his performance in a heavy coat and gloves.

[https://youtu.be/wL-hNMJvcyI](https://youtu.be/wL-hNMJvcyI)

Apropos of nothing:

A punster friend of mine pun Rick Rolled himself in a dream. In the dream, someone gave him a bunch of movies, but withheld the movie _Up._ The dream ended on the pronouncement "I'm never gonna give you _Up_."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I liked the Rick-Roll access-point:

* [https://github.com/idolpx/mobile-rr](https://github.com/idolpx/mobile-rr)

Pretends to offer free WiFi, but once you connect redirects you to a audio/video of Rick singing. I built my own version and it was a lot of fun to watch the count of "victims" increase :)

<comment><USER14> I wonder if you could build an app for Android to do this. Rick roll people on the go...

<comment><USER15> Just gotta plug the little esp8266 into an external battery with usb and you can Roll on the go :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> MIT has a history of doing similar things:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacks_at_the_Massachusetts_Ins...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacks_at_the_Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology)

</comment><comment><USER17> The idea has been commercialised for years if not decades: check out annoy-a- tron.

<comment><USER18> I used the ThinkGeek Annoy-A-Tron about a decade ago in a prank.

Do not underestimate these devices. They will utterly dismantle the sanity of the unwitting.

<comment><USER19> Totally.

We had a tech lead and senior engineer involved in an escalating prank war. The engineer eventually won with a 3 month long annoy-a-tron session.

He even managed to send in home in the lead's backpack and pick it out the next day. We were all in on the gig so whenever it went off during a meeting we denied hearing anything.

At one point he started pulling apart the HVAC system in his office. He moved all computer equipment and UPSes out into the hallway for a day. Do. Not. Underestimate. how effective these things are.

<comment><USER20> Kudos to you all, I could not keep a straight face being in on a joke like that. Talk about being totally gaslighted!

<comment><USER19> Oh it was well deserved.

The previous prank was to pull the engineer into his office and proceed to tell him(with us all there) that they were going to have to let him(along with a few others) go due to a non-poaching clause from the previous employer that they had worked for. It was pretty elaborate and only came out at the end that it was a late April fool's joke(this was on the 2nd).

<comment><USER11> I do not see how someone could enjoy being pranked on the kind of level you're talking about these guys doing.

<comment><USER19> Let's just say that the game industry lack a maturity that you find in other software engineering professions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Surely they should be awarded a prize in the Hackaday's Coin Cell Challenge.

</comment><comment><USER22> These are the "LED Throwies" of the current generation of hacker misfits:

[http://www.instructables.com/id/LED- Throwies/](http://www.instructables.com/id/LED-Throwies/)

.. or, for you 60's/70's-era greybeards, the "seed bombs" of the digital generation:

[http://www.guerrillagardening.org/ggseedbombs.html](http://www.guerrillagardening.org/ggseedbombs.html)

I sit here wondering whats next .. maybe one day, when AR/VR gets the consumer uptake it needs, we'll be seeing 'fiducial bombing' graffiti or whatever the equivalent would be .. I wonder what it is?

</comment><comment><USER23> There is no defense against these devices. Implanting a ton of these in a quiet study area is akin to a denial of service attack.

<comment><USER24> I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

<comment><USER25> No need to be quite so drastic, a mere EMP from high altitude should clear the problem.

<comment><USER26> Low altitude too. Especially local. Get an MRI sized electromagnet in there, might be sufficient.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> "Never heard of the term 'rickrolling" before." \- one of the comments on the page.

The fact that there are college students that haven't heard the term rickrolling before makes me feel super old.

<comment><USER28> alumni

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Hah, classic. How cheaply could you put one of these together?

<comment><USER30> Less than $2, just get one some of these...

[https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs- Digispark...](https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-1pcs-Digispark- kickstarter-development-board-ATTINY85-module-for-Arduino- usb/32697283942.html?spm=2114.search0220.127.116.11h1SOp)

Wack a buzzer on them, add some code and then leave them in a usb port near your victim. Easy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm reminded of the time I took the little gimmick out of a NUC box (which would play the Intel tune when you opened the box) and hid it in the ceiling next to the overhead light of an office mate.

Every time he came to work and flipped the light switch he was greeted with:

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=-ihRPi4wcBY](https://youtube.com/watch?v=-ihRPi4wcBY)

Took him a couple weeks to figure it out.

</comment><comment><USER32> Tippy Turtle did it first! (This is actually the premise of a Saturday Night Live cartoon from 1984.)

[http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tippi- turtle/n9...](http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tippi- turtle/n9255?snl=1)

</comment><comment><USER20> [https://clyp.it/01ylefbr](https://clyp.it/01ylefbr) I like how its truncates at the end making it harder to identify what it is that you're hearing exactly. Smart move, if it closed with the last handful of notes I think it would have dawned on folks a lot sooner.

</comment><comment><USER33> We were lazy . We just charged the capacitors in electronics class so the next class would get a nice jolt when they needed to use them.

I did also try out the session command to 'everyone' on the Novell system on my first day of school. They were not amused.

</comment><comment><USER34> > _has been a staple of the internet since about 2007_

Because 2007 is when Youtube started up.

<comment><USER35> They are talking about the Rickroll meme which did start in 2007 when people in /v/ would post a link to it saying it was a GTAIV trailer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Oh man. The list of times stuff like this was done in mc ar Uwaterloo would fill a novel.

</comment><comment><USER37> In today's world, the culprit will probably be found, expelled and jailed for 20 years

<comment><USER38> > "Crans, the director of facilities, said he had considered reviewing > surveillance video, but that it is not "a serious enough issue.""

<comment><USER39> That was a relief. As I read the article I had this ratcheting tension as I kept expecting the next sentence to be about some irrationally overblown response from the admin.

<comment><USER40> I had the exact same reaction reading this. I couldn't enjoy the story until I knew there wasn't an ongoing manhunt. And even then, I was sad that I had to worry so much about the overreaction so still couldn't enjoy it.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Study finds negative association between empathizing and calculation ability - <AUTHOR> http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23011 <comment><USER5> Curious to see no mention (in the paper or comments here) of previous neuro- imaging experiments that showed that brain networks associated with empathy and those associated with logical thought are antagonists, and it does not appear to be possible to have both active at the same time:

[http://blog.case.edu/think/2012/10/30/empathy_represses_anal...](http://blog.case.edu/think/2012/10/30/empathy_represses_analytic_thought_and_vice_versa)

There's a long pop-science suspicion of this, dating back to Jungian psychology (where Thinking vs. Feeling was considered a primitive dichotomy). It's enshrined in many of our stereotypes about socially awkward nerds, and also in the structure of the tech industry (which has separate departments for sales vs. engineering, and common wisdom that you need a hustler & a hacker for startups).

This seems much more likely, as an explanation, than ideas that poor math performance may be transmitted socially, although of course it'd need to be rigorously tested in an experiment to be proven.

<comment><USER6> My role involves both analysis and creativity (marketing). I personally find I can't shift from tasks heavy in one to the other multiple times through the day and offer my best work at both. If I need to be creative I try and make my day creative and vice versa for data analysis. I imagine if you consistently stay in one state you get an element of burn-in that makes shifting harder.

<comment><USER7> I have the exact same issue. I've done well with trying to structure my days similarly, but there are inevitably times where something needs to be done immediately and of course it's never in tune with how I planned the day heh. Trying to explain exactly how disruptive task-switching across domains is for me personally is not something I've been able to communicate effectively to non-technical peers and superiors.

Sure, I can switch from programming to InDesign today! I didn't want to finish that this week anyway. (I exaggerate for effect, but not by much.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Looks to me mostly like a cluster of kids with very high "calculation skills" and relatively low "empathizing quotient" is skewing their result. If you remove that group, the remaining data looks pretty uncorrelated at a glance: [http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23011/figures/1](http://www.nature.com/articles/srep23011/figures/1)

 _"Math Fluency is a measure of speeded application of arithmetic procedures. Problems included a mix of addition, subtraction, and multiplication with operands up to 10. Children were given 3 minutes to complete as many as possible. We computed a Calculation Skills composite measure, which combines the Calculation and Math Fluency subtests, in order to have a single measure capturing arithmetic ability.

"The primary guardian of each child completed the Combined Empathy Quotient- Child (EQ-C) and Systemizing Quotient-Child (SQ-C). The questionnaire was designed to be parent-report in order to avoid variance associated with children's reading and comprehension abilities."_

Alternative summary: "Out of 112 children, among the bottom 105 children when ranked by arithmetic calculation speed, there's no statistically significant correlation between arithmetic calculation speed and parental assessment of child empathy. The parents of the top 7 performers by arithmetic calculation speed uniformly think their kids have below-average empathy."

<comment><USER9> Even if you remove those, look at the bottom of the data, across the horizontal axis. There is still a downward trend, although that is an eye judgement as well. That is, if you bin the kids according to empathy (x-axis), the lowest math achiever in each bin is worse as emphathy increases. The max in each bin doesn't seem to get better, however. The slope would definitely be milder if those offending points were removed.

Moral of the story: higher N is always better.

<comment><USER10> > Moral of the story: higher N is always better.

This is true in a way, but finding and studying larger effects is often a better strategy. To some extent, why talk about something that needs huge N to get above the noise?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> _" The questionnaire was designed to be parent-report in order to avoid variance associated with children's reading and comprehension abilities."_

That seems to be as removing smaller variables by introducing a bigger one, which seems counter to current standards. When a child is being diagnosed, the physiologist always talk with the child, as its very easy to get the wrong conclusion by hearing the child being described. Its not uncommon for a diagnose to be first suspected from the descriptions that the parents gives, and then be reverted after just a short interview with the child.

After reading the article, I also wonder what correlation there is with high math achievements and being a victim of bullying, and how bullying effects the perceived social and empathy skills of a child.

<comment><USER12> The parent-report thing is definitely problematic here. Parents will never say "my child is bad at everything", and will often avoid saysing "my child is good at everything", especially if they have other kids. So they will generally pick one trait the kid is good at, and say he or she is bad at the other one. Usually math (and other school subjects) are much easier to measure, so "social skills" just get thrown around to compensate.

For example, I am very good at math, and have been told my entire life that I'm not "real-life smart" or that I have high IQ but low EQ. But now that I'm older I found that I'm pretty good at emphatizing, understanding and predicting other people reactions.

Then again, quantifying empathy is hard, and I'm pretty sure that parents would often get it wrong even without the bias. Some kids are sad when a character in a book/movie dies, but will never show it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> They seem to be hypothesizing that the mechanism causing this result is that math anxiety can be transmitted like a disease, and lower empathy individuals are somewhat immune.

It would be worthwhile to figure out what makes math anxiety transmittable, and what other attitudes might be transmitted by a similar mechanism and lead to measurable impact.

<comment><USER5> They hypothesized this, tested for it in the experiment, and found no effect. Math anxiety was correlated with calculation skills (i.e. people who were bad at calculating were more anxious about math), but uncorrelated with empathy.

The hypothesis they brought up in the conclusion was that _stereotype threat_ may be transmitted socially, and higher-empathy individuals are more susceptible. Stereotype threat is a known psychological effect where if people are members of a group that is believed to be bad at something, then their performance on tests of that will suffer, particularly if they are made aware of either the stereotype or their membership in this group before the task. It makes sense that higher empathy would make your more susceptible to this, but like the conclusion says, this requires further research to establish definitively.

<comment><USER14> Alas, it's not even clear that stereotype threat even exists.

<comment><USER15> These days it seems the only thing that clearly exists in the psychology field is the psychology field itself :/.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> As a note to people fearful of indulging past the abstract, from what I understand, Scientific Reports are meant to be read across a field of science, so it should be somewhat approachable compared to your average research paper. I found it readable and interesting with only a few confusing moments that didn't distract from the main point.

<comment><USER16> To be more accurate, Scientific Reports is a second tier "open access" journal where papers are evaluated for scientific validity, but not for scientific impact/importance. So not to be confused with the actual Nature journal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> "No widely accepted cognitive theory explains savants' combination of talent and deficit. It has been suggested that individuals with autism are biased towards detail-focused processing and that this cognitive style predisposes individuals either with or without autism to savant talents. Another hypothesis is that savants hyper-systemize, thereby giving an impression of talent. Hyper-systemizing is an extreme state in the empathizing–systemizing theory that classifies people based on their skills in empathizing with others versus systemizing facts about the external world. Also, the attention to detail of savants is a consequence of enhanced perception or sensory hypersensitivity in these unique individuals." ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome))

I am very fascinated by the semantics vs. syntax of empathy. Suppose you have a savant who is good at systematic identification of literary characters, or criminal profiling or DSM-IV case files; in another words, he or she is very good at reading people and classifying them into logical/hierarchical systems of mental, historical and social backgrounds; and miming their behavior when interacting with them, just as a savant with photographic memory can "mime" the Manhattan skyline in drawing.

Would we classify such a person as empathetic or sociopathic? If their empathy comes not from a human emotional instinct but from logical deduction?

<comment><USER18> I suspect that would depend upon whether they "cared" for the welfare of the individual they could read or if they "used" that info against them.

I personally don't think there is a clear line between those two things. I have known many people with natural social skills who routinely used them to influence social settings to their personal benefit, often without being particularly noticed by most of the people involved. I think it is more complicated than a simple binary choice.

<comment><USER19> As I understand it, sociopaths/psychopaths are entirely inner directed. They either don't notice the damage they're doing or they power trip on it.

They literally don't see other people as people at all - they see other people as resources they can play with and consume.

Empaths may be manipulative, but it's hard to be a master of manipulation when you're aware your actions are making someone else unhappy and this makes you unhappy too.

<comment><USER18> When I took an Intro to Psychology class, I realized that my then husband had five of the six traits typical of serial killers (this includes high intelligence -- they are not all _negative_ traits). My oldest son likely has the same five traits. He was quite the challenge to raise.

So, this is a problem space I have read some about, studied a hair formally, and that hits quite close to home. I managed to raise a decent human being, in spite of his innate wiring. Thus, I am convinced that it is far more complicated than you are making it out to be. There is innate wiring. There is upbringing. There are many factors here.

You can take someone with empathy who is very kind and put them through hell and break them of some of their excessive niceness. You can raise a sociopath with a model of enlightened self interest.

I think it is a fascinating area, but I no way believe it boils down to a singular personality trait.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> For those like me who were curious about the contents of the Empathy/Systemizing Quotient test itself I believe I found it as well as the scoring key for both the child and adult version (in case you want to know where you yourself fall on the scale)

These links are to Google Docs previews of .doc files listed at [http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/arc_tests](http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/arc_tests)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

Combined Empathy/Systemizing Quotient - <USER2>

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/EQ- SQ_Child.doc)

Scoring Key

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/EQ- SQ_Child_Scoring_Key.doc)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

Empathy Quotient - <USER4>

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/EQ2.doc)

Scoring Key

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/EQ40_ScoringKey.doc)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

Systemizing Quotient - <USER4>

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/SQ.doc)

Scoring Key

[https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?embedded=true&url=http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/tests/SQ_Scoring_Key.doc)

</comment><comment><USER21> If I'm reading this correctly, calculation skills are what suffer with increased empathizing, rather than ability to solve applied math problems. Is that right? Are there examples of what constitutes calculation vs. applied problem solving for the purposes of this study?

EDIT: Looks like calculations are straight up calculations, and applied problems are story problems. [http://achievement-test.com/testing- options/woodcock-johnson...](http://achievement-test.com/testing- options/woodcock-johnson-iii-tests)

</comment><comment><USER22> No surprise there....testosterone probably plays a role. [https://youtu.be/p5LRdW8xw70?t=1311](https://youtu.be/p5LRdW8xw70?t=1311)

</comment><comment><USER23> So are kids with higher empathy bad at math, leading to the environment where being bad at math makes you more popular?

Or is that those kids realize being bad at math makes them more popular, thus intentionally neglect or even pretend to be bad at math?

</comment><comment><USER24> I think this has to do with abstract reasoning skills. If you can abstract shapes and numbers well, you can abstract people well. You begin to see people as numbers and objects.

</comment><comment><USER25> Empathic individuals tend act from a position of deep understanding. If given a menial task that has no deep connection to their reality, i.e. no purpose they can connect with, then they'll just ignore it. Their brain will not even touch it.

A deeply empathic person can calculate, and more generally think and intuit, better than an emotionally detached person as long as they can emotionally connect with the task being given to them.

<comment><USER26> >A deeply empathic person can calculate, and more generally think and intuit, better than an emotionally detached person as long as they can emotionally connect with the task being given to them.

Do you have good numbers to back that up?

<comment><USER27> Edit: It's important to note though that this might be just another attempt by psychologists to paint technical folk as lacking empathy. Usually people who make such claims lack empathy themselves.

What @ilostmykeys is saying is probably based on personal experience, which matches up with my own. Similarly I've found low empathetic people are much more likely to enjoy calculation-based tasks, not just pure mathematics but video games, and video games like "The Witness," min-maxing and competitive numbers games like starcraft, dota, league of legends, etc. A high-empathetic person can have great difficulty initially understanding why anyone would enjoy playing these games, it's difficult to explain, but when compared with real life video games/simulations feel like a void, there's very little to actually connect with, and in effect it feels like you are doing very little (even if you are making great efforts).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Like many of the others here, I'm not terribly surprised by this. I learned the distinction by watching the original Star Trek as a kid. Vulcans represented the logical, calculating race, while humans were characterized as the emotional, sometimes illogical race. Spock, of course, represented the complex balance between the two.

</comment><comment><USER29> Good thing we have computers to augment our calculation abilities. Maybe they can augment our empathy, too ([http://www.amednews.com/article/20111206/profession/31206999...](http://www.amednews.com/article/20111206/profession/312069996/8/)).

</comment><comment><USER30> That's why good profs don't do spontaneous calculations at the board.

They need to be done in the privacy of one's own home.

</comment><comment><USER31> And empathizing is? Measured in?

</comment><comment><USER32> I'm going to read the rest of this paper, but it looks like the title here is misleading. The last sentence of the abstract:

> These results identify empathy, and social skills more generally, as > previously unknown predictors of mathematical achievement.

Edit: added:

> Contrary to our hypothesis, we found no relationship between systemizing and > math achievement after controlling for domain general abilities and no > relationship between the systemizing brain type (greater discrepancy between > systemizing and empathizing) and math achievement.

More edits:

The "negative correlation" turns out to be only for "calculation" and the values are r=-0.22, p=0.02, with a sample size of around a hundred individuals. This is a negligible effect by any stretch of the imagination. Sounds like the authors did their diligence in writing this up, and it's the submitter's fault for the linkbait headline.

<comment><USER33> The title is correct. That sentence just means that they're predictors, not necessarily that they're positive predictors. As in, if you know one you can predict the other.

In the results section:

> There was a negative correlation between EQ-C and the Calculation Skills > composite score with greater empathizing predicting lower math achievement > (r(110) = −0.22, p = 0.02).

<comment><USER32> A correlation of 0.2 is negligible. Especially with a sample size on the order of 100. I'm glad you pointed this out.

<comment><USER34> Considering that the sample questionnaires have to be administered by hand to each child, how would you scale the sample size for a study in this space?

It looks like the study that introduced the EQ-C and SQ-C in 2009 was only run on 1256 "parents of typically developing children" and 265 "children with Autism".[0]

[0] [http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2009_Auyeung_eta...](http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2009_Auyeung_etal_ChildEQSQ_JADD.pdf)

[0 (alternate)] [http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10803-009-0772-x](http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10803-009-0772-x)

<comment><USER32> Correlation of 0.2 is negligible with any sample size. The potential for invalid inferences is only pronounced by a small sample size. A samples size of a thousand is much better. But with n=100, r=0.2 there is a bigger chance that local factors influence the result than that the observed association says anything about human nature.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Empathizing is dumb.

Calculation ability is smart.

Surprise is where?

Empathizing is why people give $10 to a local kids soccer team but let kids die in poor countries missing vaccines.</comment>


Show HN: Handle multiple user roles on a Rails app gem - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/IcaliaLabs/acts_as_user

<comment><AUTHOR> Check out the acts as user gem for handling multiple users using polymorphic relations for a rails app</comment>


Why Robots Won't Cause Mass Unemployment - <AUTHOR> https://mises.org/blog/why-robots-wont-cause-mass-unemployment <comment><USER2> Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. When robots are capable of doing everything humans can do, even the creative endeavors, then what, exactly, are we being freed up to do? Or phrasing it another way, how exactly are we supposed to generate an income while doing it? As one analyst snarkily stated it, you can't build an economy off of music and poetry.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well just be the robots' pets at that point (if we ever get there). What does your dog do all day?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Robots WILL lead to mass unemployment because the very nature of business is to reduce costs, and increase profits. If a company can run a delivery truck without a human driver 24/7 and it be less costly, they will do it. Trucker be damn. If fast food chains can remove the human element from food production, they will do it. Unfortunately putting people out of work in exchange for greater profits is the next logical step.

<comment><USER4> agreed. Though the problem of no work beign there isn't as bad as a lot of people think / make beleive it to be. Humans will be put to more intellectual tasks which will still in the forseable future be impossible for machines to mimick.

On a larger scale, there exists a problem of people now being dependent on a job to live, this dependancy needs to be eliminated before such broad automation of all human repetitive / robot-replacable tasks can be implemented. If this will be managed before that time is debatable, but if it's not, it will just self-destruct and we'll have to start over again :D</comment></comment>


'Show no mercy': leaked documents reveal details of China's Xinjiang detentions - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/17/show-no-mercy-leaked-documents-reveal-details-of-chinas-mass-xinjiang-detentions <comment><USER2> The article says it was leaked to the NYT, so maybe link to them instead?

Like

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21552873](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21552873)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21554359](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21554359)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21555033](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21555033)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21556756](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21556756)</comment>


My fitness tracker just turned into ransomware - <AUTHOR> https://email@example.com/did-fitness-buddy-just-turn-into-ransomware-dc951be2b961#.p8e4xayu7 <comment><USER2> And now you understand what Richard M. Stallman means when he refers to "freedom" in relation to software.

This software was not free, and does not respect your freedoms.</comment>


Linux Mint 19.2 Cinnamon Released - <AUTHOR> https://www.linuxmint.com/rel_tina_cinnamon.php <comment><USER2> Better link that also makes it obvious this is a beta release: [https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3773](https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3773)

</comment><comment><USER3> > By reporting these issues earlier we go from a situation where the user > doesn't understand why Samba isn't working, to a situation where an explicit > warning and a clue are given the minute an issue might require the user's > attention.

It's really nice to see useful warnings and guidance being provided over "you're doing it wrong" error messages. This is critical in making the system usable.

(And especially with file sharing where the multiple overlapping permissions can't be avoided and are horribly counter-intuitive.)

</comment><comment><USER4> "known touchpad issues" \- yesterday mine started losing tap-to-click every 30 mins. Have to disable then enable the pad. I'm on 19.1 with kernel 5.1.16 - we'll see what happens with 19.2.

</comment><comment><USER5> Isn't this a beta?

</comment><comment><USER6> after using a non-distribution based OS (purely package-based) i really can't look back. previously it was sort of lame that i couldn't get a new emacs because a completely unrelated package like a newer python or whatever was unavailable and stuck behind a new release; now it's just unacceptable in all forms.

<comment><USER7> What do you use?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think you are linking to a doc not quite ready for public consumption.

</comment><comment><USER9> BETA</comment>


Any recent Amazon hires? - <AUTHOR>

I keep getting linkedIn messages from Amazon recruiters about recruiting events in my city (mid west) with positions in Seattle, WA. I'm a Java developer with 10 years full stack experience.
Has anyone hired on with Amazon lately? If you did, did you require relocation? What types of salaries are they offering?
I don't respond because I doubt they'd offer the type of salary I'd require for my family to relocate to Seattle (150k+). <comment><USER2> I interviewed recently and yes you would most likely have to relocate to Seattle or Virginia. I think I did fairly well on the interview but didn't get the job.

I think I might have been too high priced like you. One of Amazon's principals is "being frugal" so I'm guessing they found someone cheaper because I was looking for around the same salary.

Also being "fullstack" is not necessarily something they want. What I've seen with larger companies like Amazon, is that there is often no position for fullstack developers. Most developers end up focusing on some part of the stack.

I'm a fullstack developer too, so while that is a great trait, I don't think it necessarily helps with Amazon developer positions. Although you do have a leg up because you have Java experience. Amazon uses a lot Java from what I could gather from the interview.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting, thanks for the feedback! Kind of confirms my suspicion it would be a waste of time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I interviewed for amazon a few months ago. While the first round went fairly well, I was badly prepared for the second round and I didn't get through. And in hindsight, I was not ready to relocate to South Africa (it was for the capetown office).

Anyway, coming to my point. We were talking about the job and the company, when the interviewer mentioned that the company has this policy of saving money and not paying top rung salaries to their employees. This wasn't an issue for me (coming from an even smaller startup, it is still a step up for me), but its relevant to your question.

I think you can try interviewing with them and see where it goes.

</comment><comment><USER4> Try Glassdoor for reviews, interview, and salaries to get idea. Ten years of relevant Java experience will net you about $150K in Seattle area. There is no harm in pursuing further, worst case scenario, you turn Amazon down due to lower comp. What group has been approaching you from Amazon? I am currently in middle of interview process with AWS for non-development role.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, I did check glassdoor a couple of months ago, at the time my take away was they might go 120, but that's not enough for me and my situation.</comment></comment>


Amazon now has a billion-dollar ad business - <AUTHOR> https://digiday.com/marketing/amazon-now-1-billion-ad-business/ <comment><USER2> One of the things I liked about Amazon early on is that they were on my side. They were very customer focused. For a while, though, they've been shifting to make me the product. Their site has become filled with sponsored products and ads. It's definitely reducing my trust in them.

<comment><USER3> Trusting big companies is a folly anyway. They make decisions based on dollars and stats.

The only companies one can "trust" are the smaller ones - where the owner still has enough control to stamp his own sense of ethics onto the place.

<comment><USER2> Sure, but with their previous business model I didn't have to trust their ethics, just their long-term self interest. Amazon got big because they were good at serving their customers well. But if they've decided to make money from selling access to manipulating their customers, suddenly my trust in their sense of self-interest isn't enough.

<comment><USER4> I think you're missing a level of trust that it sounds like you implicitly had.

Selling you products you wanted at a good price never precluded them from doing shady with the data that resulted from those transactions. Their incentive is to _maximize_ income, so they could've always done all sorts of shady behind-the-scenes things with the data as long as they felt the risk of getting exposed and losing a lot of business as a result was sufficiently low.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe they can reinvest some of that money and figure out how to not spam me for things I've already pre-ordered _from Amazon_.

Case in point, Super Mario Odyssey. Preordered from Amazon, and they've been sending me nonstop emails to try and sell me additional copies ever since.

At least their marketing emails tend to come from a different source from tracking notification emails so you can filter them with ease.

<comment><USER6> I've bought multiple copies of the same item from Amazon. Sometimes it's been groceries but not always.

I've bought books for myself then bought them again as gifts for someone else. I bet a lot of people who bought Switch games for themselves will buy more copies as holiday presents.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, but if you've already bought the product it isn't likely that you need to be marketed to in order to buy it again for the purposes you stated.

<comment><USER8> Certain products are purchased repeatedly: for example, anything consumable like paper towels, toilet paper, diapers. Certain other products are purchased multiple times, but with a delay in between purchases.

A final category of products are virtually never purchased multiple times except as gifts. Video games and other media most likely fall into this category, and targeting logic should understand that. I understand the OP's complaint.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If the business generated $1B last quarter, isn't that a $4B business?

<comment><USER2> Excellent point. The article was kinda hazy, but the original Amazon press release is here, and it confirms your take: [http://phx.corporate- ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97664&p=irol-new...](http://phx.corporate- ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97664&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=2311817)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The online business has really migrated from a long-tail exploration business to one where people just go with the masses and buy the 'No. 1 in Category' product. Now giving companies the chance to take such a top spot and proving the value of that positioning by being able to verify that the purchase was completed is an amazing asset to have. That shot at being the first trillion dollar company is getting better and better.

</comment><comment><USER11> That is only part of Amazon's advertising business. If you read their 10-k:

"Vendor Agreements We have agreements with our vendors to receive funds for advertising services, cooperative marketing efforts, promotions, and volume rebates. We generally consider amounts received from vendors to be a reduction of the prices we pay for their goods, including property and equipment, or services, and therefore record those amounts as a reduction of the cost of inventory, cost of services, or cost of property and equipment"

[http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97664&p=irol- sec...](http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=97664&p=irol- sec&control_selectgroup=Annual%20Filings)

<comment><USER12> What's the insight here? How they handle the accounting of it?

<comment><USER13> i think the insight is that if you count all the other advertising revenue that they book as "cost reductions" instead of standard revenue, then they're making a lot more than $1b per quarter off advertising (or alternatively, the fact that they're making $1bn per quarter is not a new thing)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hope AMZ will fix [https://www.quora.com/Has-anybody-got-cheated-by-Amazon- Indi...](https://www.quora.com/Has-anybody-got-cheated-by-Amazon-India)

</comment><comment><USER15> what if that advertising revenue goes towards offering even lower prices to customers? would that be an acceptable tradeoff? say, out of 1$ generated from ads on amazon.com, 80c set aside for offering lower prices, and 20c for running costs etc? I don't know if that's the case, just curious if it'd be OK if that was the case.

</comment><comment><USER16> Competition is good, even for heavens and hells.

</comment><comment> oh-kumudo As always, adblocker is your friend.

I don't really see that Amazon can go so bold to block customers that come to the websites with adblockers on, unlike other business like Youtube/Facebook. After all it is a retail website, ads is just easy money they collect on the way.

</comment><comment><USER17> I refuse to believe a single number about the online ad business while things like this are going on:

[http://fortune.com/2016/12/20/methbot-ad- fraud/](http://fortune.com/2016/12/20/methbot-ad-fraud/)</comment>


Building a Silicon Brain - <AUTHOR> https://www.the-scientist.com/features/building-a-silicon-brain-65738 <comment><USER2> Among the problems you get with the neuromorophic chips is that they are choosing which hypothetical neural algorithm the chip should use and which silicon implementation should be made of that algorithm.

Current AI is continuously modifying it's algorithms. Personally, I'd want to see parallel chips with a programming interface at least as "general purpose" as the GPU.

One might even boldly say something like "the only way this deep learning explosion happened is through the consumer market making powerful parallel chips ubiquitous". Or more cynically, "if chip maker had been looking at only AI applications, they would have strangled the deep learning explosion by their tendency to demand $10K+ per installation since they look at the well- healed corporation that easily afford these and thus ignore the graduate students who make the conceptual progress in their basements." Even Nvidia is eager to divide their offerings between $500 game boards and $5000+ deep learning boards. One assumes a neuromorophic chip would be way up this "high end".

<comment><USER3> And why not the GPUs themselves? Which inherent limitations do they have? Aren't they essentially general purpose parallel devices?

<comment><USER4> No, GPUs are quite different than CPUs with more cores. They're optimized for Singl-Instruction-Multiple-Data algorithms, in which the same operation is done at the same time to many different inputs (think image or video processing). They do very poorly in cases with complex branching logic.

<comment><USER3> I know, but isn't that what the OP was asking for? Isn't that an inherent tradeoff? Or: isn't that what Neuromorphic hardware and deep learning are about (ie. composing many relatively simple functions without complex branching/logic)?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Transmitting analog voltages in neuromorphic circuits reminds me of a cool experiment I heard about a while ago. A team used an evolutionary algorithm to adapt an FPGA to recognize sounds. When they got the behavior they wanted, they tried copying the circuit to another FPGA and found that it didn't work because the algorithm had evolved dependencies on specific quirks in the original physical FPGA. I can't figure out how to link to the PDF directly, but the original research is probably "An Evolved Circuit, Intrinsic in Silicon, Entwined With Physics" by Adrian Thompson, which tells the story far better than I have.

It's neat to think that our own brains might have adapted wiring that works specifically for the actual molecules that make up our bodies. It's uniqueness on a different level.

<comment><USER6> Lovely article about the paper, one of my favorite reads:

[https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of- circuits/](https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/)

<comment><USER7> Thx. it's great

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> On this topic, more specifically of whole-brain emulation, a very interesting report I found a few months ago: "Whole Brain Emulation: A Roadmap". It's one of a very rare breed: an evaluation of a _future_ technology that _does not_ enter into wild speculation or wishful thinking, but remains critical and objective as far as possible.

[1]: [https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap- report.pdf](https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf)

<comment><USER9> It's unfortunately quite old, predating the DL revolution. I think it would be written much differently now: emphasizing more the possibility of brain- _like_ architectures (perhaps using real brain data as rich 'supervision': [https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy...](https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/comments/9pwy2f/wbe_and_drl_a_middle_way_of_imitation_learning/) ) rather than direct brain emulation, and more skeptical about the extent to which deep accurate simulation down to the molecular level is really necessary for human-level intelligence.

I've suggested repeatedly to FHI & Sandberg that an update of the Roadmap would be a very good project, but given how little progress there has been on true brain emulation since then (especially compared to DL), I'm not surprised that nothing's happened.

</comment></comment><comment> jo-m Another interesting kind of hardware they have at INI (Giacomo Indiveri's institute) are the dynamic vision sensors (initially developed by Lichtsteiner, Posch, Delbruck, Berner, Kramer).

Those are cameras modeled after the human retina, and they overcome the processing and frame rate bottleneck of traditional cameras by using an event based architecture (event stream of pixel brightness changes -> no data if nothing changes). This allows microsecond latency in machine vision systems, without the high data rates you get with frame based cameras.

* Overview: [http://siliconretina.ini.uzh.ch/wiki/index.php](http://siliconretina.ini.uzh.ch/wiki/index.php)

* Company selling them: [https://inivation.com/dvs/](https://inivation.com/dvs/)

* Another company selling them split off by one of the PHDs: [https://www.prophesee.ai/](https://www.prophesee.ai/)

* Demo video: [https://youtu.be/jnzPuDUsP4w?t=14](https://youtu.be/jnzPuDUsP4w?t=14)

</comment><comment><USER10> This neuromorphic stuff is super cool. I wish I could just buy some! I'm the author of spikeflow (github.com/colinator/spikeflow). I'd love to support neuromorphic hardware.

For the moment, biological neural networks (brains) are, I believe, many orders of magnitude more powerful, and especially more efficient than, current computers. But it's hard to say, because it's so hard to tease out the important parts of what the brain does, because it does so much. There are so many types of neurons, so many types of connectivity, so many interacting neurotransmitters, so many support cells that affect computation... almost like the brain is the result of a billion years of hack-upon-hack evolution...

<comment><AUTHOR> This a very cool repository indeed! Have you compared the speed/accuracy of spikeflow with other SNN libraries like Brian2 on decent GPUs (or even TPUs)?

<comment><USER11> agreed, very cool repo. Are you looking for help? I have some hours of my life to devote for some cool ML stuff.

<comment><USER10> Yeah, totally! You can find me email from my github profile.</comment></comment></comment></comment>