Ask HN: How do you launch a network effect startup like a Groupon clone - <AUTHOR>

Hi HN, lets take a groupon clone as a case study. Assuming you had a significant differentiating factor that would make you more attractive than Groupon to a particular group of businesses/buyers - how would you go about launching it? How would you line the first set of businesses and attract buying customers the first week of launch? <comment><USER2> You need to get some deals that:

1\. Are so good people will tell their friends. 2\. Appeal to a wide enough audience that all of your initial customers have at least one friend who would actually be interested.

If you can convince a few retailers to make these kinds of deals with you, then you just need to get a core group of highly connected early users to start the word-of-mouth chain. If you have a popular Twitter account or blog, you're half way there.

Obviously this is kind of chicken/egg, so you need good connections in the retail world, the kind who owe you a favor or take "incentives".

<comment><USER3> I agree the key is some good deals. maybe you can get a retailer to do some cross promotion... i.e. the retailer promotes your site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Groupon spent a LARGE amount of money on marketing. They had a pretty large affiliate marketing program that paid out ~$2ish range I believe for an email submit. Affiliates blew this offer up.

<comment><USER5> Best answer here. I used to run traffic to Groupon clones so I know all about their affiliate program. The secret is building high converting landing pages and a strong backend. Then push the offer out to affiliates who can drive lots of traffic and sit back and wait for signups.

<comment><USER6> care to elaborate about strong backend ? are you referring to the system architecture (DB, site responsiveness, PHP vs Ruby, etc.) ?

<comment><USER7> He's using backend in the direct marketing sense... What you do with a customer after you make the initial sale (cross selling, up selling, follow up pitches, customer reactivation, referral drives, special events, etc, etc)

<comment><USER5> You got it right :) Specifically, in this case, it's all about how well you can upsell and how effectively you can email your existing customer base to keep them engaged.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> _> How would you line up the first set of businesses_

Call prospective partner merchants and pitch them over the phone. If they seem open to the idea, set up an appointment to meet in person. Present, negotiate terms and get them to sign a contract. Take photos and write a blurb about the business. Rinse, repeat.

 _> How would you attract buying customers_

Before launch, make the homepage a signup form. Chat up the social media channels. Launch when you have a big list (~10k) of email subscribers.

</comment><comment><USER9> The best way to start any sort of "social business" is on a micro scale. In this case, for example, you could start with a local shopping area. Niche stores and small businesses are a lot more willing to try new ideas. Once you become more successful, you can branch out.

</comment><comment><USER10> Hi. I can tell you my experience w/groupon. I live in Argentina, but I've known groupon since march. They launched here like 2 months ago, and as someone has said before, they are trying to crush the competition with MASSIVE advertising. The thing is, that they wanted first mover advantage.

Now, considering that you are trying to enter to compete to a well established business you have 2 alternatives. 1) get funding and launch masively 2) start small and try to bootstrap. Anyways..the question in the end would be..how fast can groupon copy your features? (if they are that good at all). Best of lucks!

</comment><comment><USER11> I'd focus on building a followers list (email list, facebook fans, twitter followers, blog subscribers).

Then when you speak with businesses, you tell them how many people you can contact, it will help them accept to offer a greal deal for your launch.

Affiliates might also help building that list.

</comment><comment><USER12> I am very interested in this topic since I am working on a project that, if marketed properly, will leave groupon biting the dust.

<comment><USER13> I'm working on a project that, if marketed properly, will leave Facebook biting the dust.

;)

<comment><USER12> Good luck on your project, you will need it much more than I ;)

The difference between facebook and groupon is that the former has plenty of competition and everybody seems happy with it, while the latter is practically a new niche and is pissing off everybody with their huge cuts from 50% to 100%

So, there is plenty of room for better groupon alternatives that can treat their customers better.

<comment><USER5> There are actually several groupon clones out there. Some are growing, most are failing to get any traction.

<comment><USER14> several? Last I heard it was somewhere around 70.

<comment><USER15> This one is by our very own smanek:

<http://www.postabon.com/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> <http://developer.adility.com></comment>


Improving Ruby - <AUTHOR> http://metaphysicaldeveloper.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/improving-ruby/

<comment><USER2> I think one of the key things he's missing at the end of this article, where portability across implementations is mentioned, is that bringing more flexible metaprogramming into the language can make portability a whole lot easier. You can define the core of the language as a macro processor and some base functionality, then define everything else on top of it. A new implementation has to build the core, then gets the rest for free. This is common in the Lisp world, but next to nonexistent outside it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point. Actually Alan Kay does mention this on his interview on ACM queue (<http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523>) when he says: "and in fact we know how to do it in a meta-way". And this has been the goal of Rubinius guys (Ruby written in Ruby). Somehow, not being "Turtles all the way down" does bother me, but, in pratical terms, it does not affect as much right now.

Clojure is also criticize for not being fully implemented in Clojure, and I think this is a very pragmatic choice. It is always better when it is otherwise, but Jvm is portable enough that clojure does not need to be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> More thoughts on improving Ruby at [http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/early-experiments- wit...](http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/early-experiments-with-jruby/)

</comment><comment><USER4> I've seen ruby objects with #source_location before, but, agreed, should be default.</comment>


Valve discontinues the Steam Link - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/11/19/18103672/valve-discontinues-steam-link-streaming-set-top-box <comment><USER2> Have two of these, and a few Steam controllers, and god damn they are one of the best devices I own. My wife and I play games from the couch or bed all the time together.

Both of ours are hard wired, not wireless, and never had a problem with the streaming. Actually thats not true. After a windows update of some kind, possibly directx, all Unity based games failed to launch for about a week. Then back to normal.

The Steam controllers are not as awesome in my opinion, much preferred my Xbox controllers.

These things are awesome for when friends are over. Wish there was more games, but there are still a solid number of games that are great for the couch. Jackbox party packs, Tricky Towers, Tower Fall, Sonic All Stars Racing, Party Panic, Hell Divers, Overcooked, and the list goes on. Sooooo many good games and I got to keep them all in my Steam library without having to buy another console and rebuy games.

<comment><USER3> How do they work?

I know what Steam is, but I can't fathom what this gadget actually does and what value it adds.

<comment><USER4> It's almost like a Chromecast for your games. It connects to your main computer on your network and can manage Steam remotely. Starting a game streams the audio and video from the game from your gaming computer to your TV, and returns input back to it, effectively letting any TV in your house become a gaming console if you already have a games-capable machine. Their Steam Link app does similar, except to your phone rather than to a TV.

<comment><USER5> Chromecast and all the other IPV4/6 based wireless HDMI are really intensive and saturate your LAN. I have a wireless HDMI that uses directional infrared and it's quite performant with no resource contention issues.

<comment><USER6> That sounds like a really neat device. In lieu of that, I segregate traffic with VLANs by SSID at home, which helps prevent mDNS spikes and other inconveniences from disrupting the rest of the network.

It's pretty common for people to buy into IoT without preparing their networks, and there's no networking hardware that I know of that's a seamless experience for managing what having an IoT integrated home brings.

I guess Ubiquiti's Unifi line is pretty close, but it's not what I'd imagine a plugnplay "Google Hub" automated router/switch with SDN manageable from Assistant.

Although, I haven't used Google WiFi, so I don't know if it already works like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm super sad Valve seems to be failing in hardware. Their Steam hardware, including machines and controllers, is actually really nice in my experience and it might serve as yet another instance where developing a good product doesn't necessarily translate into sales or long term success.

<comment><USER8> Steam machines are an interesting inverse of the normal console where a large established company makes a standardized piece of hardware and partner with publishes and studios to fill out a catalog of software. Steam instead was a huge catalog of software that asked computer companies to create specialized hardware.

Unfortunately their target audience also claims to be the PC Master Race. Its a bit like trying to sell Disco to the Punks.

<comment><USER9> Looking at the Linux gaming landscape now compared to what it was like before Steam machines the difference is night and day. Of course there is still more work to do in this area but I'd say they achieved what they set out to do - reduce Microsoft's dominance in PC gaming and create some real competition.

<comment><USER10> Linux gaming market on Steam is around 1%, hardly anything to bother about, let alone reduce Microsoft's dominance in PC gaming.

Google, Apple, Nintendo and Sony are the only ones that matter regarding PC gaming versus alternatives.

<comment><USER7> I don't think Valve's imperative was to dethrone Microsoft at all, it was to introduce alternatives to Windows, which poses an existential threat to Steam with Windows Store. To that effect, Steam coming to Mac was probably a bigger deal, but even still, I think Steam for Linux and Proton were pretty big deals. The public is watching, largely with skepticism before Steam for Linux was announced, but now there's a legitimate chance newer games, sometimes even fairly high-end games, can get released for Linux on launch - something that used to only happen for a select few games by companies that did it for fun, like Unreal Tournament or most things from iD Software.

Steam also now offers me a platform where I can buy cross-platform software once and use it anywhere. I consider this to be fairly valuable, and it makes me a lot less likely to buy software on Windows Store or Mac App Store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is terrible. We own 2 links and they are great. Stream games from our computers to our living room. My son loves it. I guess we'll need to figure out a small Linux box to duplicate this. Wonder if a RasberryPi could do it.

I really hope this has no impact on Streaming in general, it is one of Steam's best features.

<comment><USER12> If they stop supporting it and you have a Nvidia GPU you can always use Moonlight:

[https://moonlight-stream.com/](https://moonlight-stream.com/)

Moonlight can do 4k at 120fps and supports HVEC / H.265.

You can run Moonlight on a RPi and achieve 1080p at 60fps and 5.1 audio without much trouble. Sadly a RPi cannot do HVEC encoding using hw.

<comment><USER13> > Sadly a RPi cannot do HVEC encoding using hw.

Do you know any small formfactor SoC that can, by any chance? Might be a good intermediate upgrade while waiting for decent AV1 hardware to arrive.

<comment><USER14> Odroid c2 [https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-c2/](https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-c2/) Only with the non-mainline kernel thought

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm using Steam Link that's built into my smart TV. Way superior as it supports 4K and 50mbps stream. The original physical Link is catching dust on the shelf. It's quite okay setup with a headless gaming PC. You have to use a remote desktop from time to time to click on some system dialog, so it's not a 100% console-like experience.

<comment><USER16> What kind of TV has built-in Steam Link? :o

<comment><USER17> There is an app for Android TV [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.valvesoftw...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.valvesoftware.steamlink)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I have one plugged to our TV, and it was great fun to play games on.

Yeah, some games were buggy, and some games didn't work, but for the ones that did, it was great! I had some nice times playing Rocket League with my dad on cough, it brought us back to the Halo 3 days when we would play on the Xbox 360.

It seems like the developers didn't embrace it, as games supporting the Steam Link was lacking a bit.

<comment><USER19> What do you mean by games supporting it, I thought the idea was Steam Link acting transparently?

<comment><USER2> From my experience, it only ever game down to if the games supported controllers well enough. Although as I mentioned in another comment, there was about a one week period where all Unity based games would just crash when launching. All other games fine. Unity games broken. Then fine a week later.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This never came to India and I had it on my wishlist all this while. I'm upset Valve is discontinuing it.

Fortunately, I used Moonlight on my Raspberry Pi using this Kodi addon - [https://github.com/dead/script.moonlight](https://github.com/dead/script.moonlight)

<comment> forgot-my-pw It's not the best device. Sometimes we get controller issues (3rd party). Some games don't support controllers at all. It doesn't feel like the full console experience at all.

It's basically just a remote desktop / streaming device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I don't get the article, more and more vendors support steam link as an application for TV itself so its not like streaming is being phased out, it is being built in instead.

<comment><USER22> I don't want that, though. I actively want a dumb tv and a bunch of boxes — My smart tv is unplugged from the internet and I'm using it as a dumb tv, because the software just sucks. Hopefully steam link will show up on iOS soon.

<comment><USER23> Same here. I had a Smart TV for a year and it was absoutely abhorrent. I sold it and got a 40" monitor for my PC instead. The PC actually boots faster than the TV did.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This is one of Valve's worst decisions. This device is a gem. I use it in uncapped bandwidth mode (lowest latency) with 8 thread CPU encoding (for the crispest image with fast motion) from my desktop and it's perfect. I've been having exceptional results with it ever since it launched. I never used wifi with it, as I'm old enough that I'm from the era where I don't believe that civilized people should use wifi with anything except laptops and phones.

People keep saying it can't do 4K and that's what the specs say, but it can indeed do 4K. Valve has done a lot of great updates to it over the years to enable features like that. There is no good replacement for these, a FireTV can sideload the app but you'll be doing every update manually. Nvidia has ShieldTV, but you have to use their GPUs to stream to it, so no using your random Intel powered laptop for lightweight and fun co-op games. Or AMD powered Macbook if you wanted to. Those also don't have the option for CPU encoding on the host, you have to use NVENC which is inferior. I would only use hardware encoding if I only had more of an old timey 4-core, 8-thread CPU.

I bought another one with this sale, but will be keeping an eye out for a true replacement. My hope is that Amazon gets the SteamLink App in their Appstore so we can get auto updates on their platform.

ShieldTV is the only real alternative today, but with the limitations noted above. If you've been more of a SteamLink power user like me who really likes to tweak the experience and get the most out of it, there's no clear successor yet other than a HTPC as the decoder or rummaging the market for some random Android media device. I'm holding on to my SteamLink until Amazon gets the SteamLink App in their store. Then I'll continue to hold onto it until it dies.

Terrible move by Valve. They had this one model, one little device that I could flatly recommend to everyone, and it wasn't hurting their megacorp. This is one of those things that doesn't make you rich, but it's an essential product offering. It's value to what Steam is can't be favorably calculated by bean counters. They're already booted out of the iOS Appstore, and they're not in Amazon's yet, and they would need to ensure the SteamLink App works perfect on both ecosystems to discontinue this. Unless you are really slopping things together, using wifi or have a failing router/switch, the SteamLink just worked.

</comment><comment><USER25> One of the few tech purchases I've greatly regretted.

I don't doubt it works as advertised - but if I wanted to play games in my living room I'd use a console. The type of games I play would need mouse and keyboard, so why would I lug those to another room? So yeah, it doesn't solve THIS kind of problem :)

</comment><comment><USER26> Not sure why it even called wireless gaming, since in my experience you have to introduce even more wires. Both computer and device have to be connected to ethernet if you want lag free experience. I'm so happy with my current setup, when I just plug HDMI to my laptop, and use either wireless PS4 or Switch controllers with it.

</comment><comment><USER27> What a shame, I was looking forward to picking one of these up the next time I went back to the US. Seems like I may have to bite the bullet and accept that my Raspberry Pi, while a fun gadget, is not a substitute for a full fledged HTPC. Any recommendations on a HTPC which I can use to dual boot Win/Linux?

</comment><comment><USER28> I've never used mine for games. $20 for a decent desktop mirror is great.

<comment><USER29> I use mine for both and love that you can just minimize Steam to stream the desktop and arbitrary non-Steam applications without hacks.

It's one of the most useful gadgets I have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I was hoping the steam link 2 was coming onces I bought a few on sale for 90% off. I think both on mine cost me less than £5 delivered next day.

</comment><comment><USER31> Are desktop PCs the primary use case here? I picked up a Steam Link during the sale, but never ended up using it past some initial messing around. It's easy enough to simply plug my laptop into the HDMI cable we leave running from the TV. Maybe if we had multiple TVs—but then, I could just carry my laptop over to whichever one, anyway...

<comment><USER32> Yes I'd say they are. Most PC gaming is happening on a desktop form factor and this helped bring it into other rooms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Impressive optics too, on the otherwise quiet 20th Anniversary of Half Life's release...

</comment><comment><USER34> What _exactly_ does it do ? From the article its unclear :/

<comment><USER22> Literally what it says in the article: Plug it into your tv and play your steam library from your main PC via in-house streaming. Hence the comparison to "wireless hdmi"

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Eh, I bought one of these on sale during the last big sale and was sorely disappointed. It was barely usable despite my network streaming video fine. Your mileage may vary of course, but this review is a little, ahem, exaggerated.

<comment><USER36> Yes like others have said, try it with the ethernet cable, that should fix any streaming issues.

To me the issue is more that the controllers are a bit annoying to use and there are not that many games that are co-op / local multiplayer and that support controllers on steam.

<comment><USER13> We've had lots of local-coop fun with 'Salt and Sanctuary', in case you missed it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Might be clearing factory lines for the new VR headset?</comment>


One Kings Lane: From The LAX Arrivals Terminal To $200M In Revenue - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/25/one-kings-lane-from-the-lax-arrivals-terminal-to-200m-in-revenue/ <comment><USER2> My mom told me about this company before HN. She loves it.

They're definitely doing something right.</comment>


How Facebook helps Ad Scammers – "They go out and find the morons for me." - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-03-27/ad-scammers-need-suckers-and-facebook-helps-find-them?1 <comment><AUTHOR> Facebook's newly installed executive in charge of fighting shady ads, Rob Leathern, had invited him to the company's London office to explain the latest affiliate tricks.</comment>


What Does Your Company Blog About? - <AUTHOR>

Why?
How do you choose topics?
How do you promote your content?
Does blogging work for your business? <comment><USER2> 1\. What do we blog about

My startup is travel focused. And so naturally we blog (at [http://blog.planitwide.com](http://blog.planitwide.com)) on 2 topics:

a) Travel, which falls into a couple of categories:

i) Deep dives & reviews of quality travel resources and why someone should choose to use them in a specific (or sometimes broad) context

It's not hard to choose topic - we start with what we know & use - and that's a long list.

ii) Thought leadership on the travel space in general (which ties into why we exist in the first place).

These are the kinds of posts that (we believe) will eventually get us noticed and establish our credibility as people who know whtat they're talking about.

b) Startup Life Like every startup, there is a boatload of learning that happens. These are all perspectives that can benefit other people in the same boat.

Again, not hard to come up with topics, just see what you've learned trying to do xyz. Even (and especially) failure is valuable learning to share.

>

2\. Promoting content:

We promote on

a) Social Media: Twitter & Instagram (no bandwidth for more). Instagram is especially useful for showing behind the scenes stuff & sneek peaks at what's coming (which can then also be shared on Twitter - or other platforms) simultaneously.

b) Travel focused communities: /r/travel on Reddit & Outbounding.org. Being on here also involved mostly participating in discussions and building reputation. Our content promotion is an afterthought. People will discover it if they find it useful

c) Startup/tech focused communities: Hacker News, Inbound.org, Growthhackers.com, USVconversation.com. Again, same principle as other communities - don't talk about yourself most/all of the time. Build reputation first.

d) Medium: We cross post to collections we've created on Medium for additional exposure to the audience that comes there to read great content.

>

3\. Does blogging work?

Two things:

a) Rule of thumb is that if you're starting out, you're going to be blogging for near-zero audience for nearly 6 months. We've been at for 3-4 months and while we have some traffic, there's no real engagement (as expected) with our content yet in terms of shares/comments etc.

It all takes time and you have to stick with it.

b) Blogging doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a wordpress blog. It can mean you do it on Medium, or Tumblr or even as a video blog solely on youtube. It all depends on what your end goals are.

Hope that helps.

</comment><comment><USER3> My startup blogs about healthcare innovation -- analytics, software, startups, mobile, medical research, process, etc.

Link: [http://www.additiveanalytics.com/blog/](http://www.additiveanalytics.com/blog/)

How do I choose topics? I look over Google Scholar, Google News, PR sites, and government sites and find what seems interesting to me -- ideally stuff other people haven't written about. Then I write about that.

I promote the content via twitter (@addanalytics), LinkedIn, Google+, Facebook (totally worthless so far, maybe I am doing it wrong), sometimes Hacker News.

Does blogging work for your business? Yes, I've gotten some good leads via blogging. It has also improved my search engine rankings a bit although it's not magic.

</comment><comment><USER4> _What Does Your Company Blog About?_

Data, insights (about any popular topic), social analytics, and our own new product features. Recently wrote about Bitcoin, #AmazonCart, Google Glass.

[http://blog.itrendcorporation.com](http://blog.itrendcorporation.com)

 _Why?_

We are a startup, so any additional exposure is nice.

 _How do you choose topics?_

Pretty much at random, but usually has to do with interesting data.

 _How do you promote your content?_

post to Twitter, FB, LinkedIn.

 _Does blogging work for your business?_

Still not clear. We do get meaningful traffic, but I suspect much of it is from techies trying to build analytics in-house.

</comment><comment><USER5> Molo.io - Marina Management B2B SaaS

We just decided to start blogging. We're aiming to build an audience with our customer base prior to launching v1 of our product.

Topics: We are aiming to choose topics that will provide insights, thoughts, and solutions that will add value to the day-to-day business happenings of our audience.

Promote: We have a mailing list of folks interested in the upcoming launch of Molo so we'll use that, Twitter, and news aggregators from our industry.

Does it Work: Hopefully, we have an advisor who is also doing B2B SaaS and he has found great value and good leads coming from the blogging he does. Only time will tell for us.

</comment><comment><USER6> We blog for a number of reasons. Since we run a B2B business, we'll write about topics of interest (i.e. issues in the B2B or software space), our community/users and the company, as appropriate.

Check it out: [http://about.g2crowd.com/blog](http://about.g2crowd.com/blog) Our site is also at [http://g2crowd.com](http://g2crowd.com). (Might give you a better sense of what we're about.)</comment>


Ask HN: Is security-related open-source software (unaudited) a flawed concept? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Compared to what? Unaudited security-related closed source software? That's not an improvement.</comment>


Why do I believe strongly even when I'll likely end up wrong - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@zhanwei/why-do-i-believe-strongly-even-when-ill-likely-end-up-wrong-a1cbbca00901 <comment><USER2> I like it. Many epistemological systems crumble when subjected to their own analytical techniques. (This is a parlor trick they teach philosophy undergrads.) It's hard to do that when you start out by positing the incompleteness of your own knowledge.</comment>


Ask HN: Board Seats and salaries  - <AUTHOR>

Hi all,<p>I was wondering if anyone has any first hand knowledge if VC's or angel investors who invest in your companies, get paid a small salary to sit on your board?  I figure if it's a small angel investment or seed round, that no one gets paid to sit on the board, but post Series A, is it unheard of? <comment><USER2> It is highly unusual for an early stage board member to take cash out of the business, b/c every dollar is critical early on. However, it's not unusual for them to have travel to board meetings reimbursed. However, it's up to the company to set the policy regarding travel cost, hotel, etc.

It's worth noting that mature companies often pay board members in cash, equity or both.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks.. that was my thinking, often larger companies have paid board seats, was wondering if it was the same with start ups.

Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> As far as I know, they get stock (as part of the investment), not salary. Most Series will probably include at least a lead investor on the board.</comment>


Facebook Marketplace – Is This the Death of Craigslist? - <AUTHOR> https://newark1.com/facebook-marketplace-new-craigslist/ <comment><USER2> most of craigslists money is jobs and rentals.</comment>


This is how crowded Australia's group deal market has got in Groupons absence - <AUTHOR> http://www.allthedeals.com.au/sydney-group-buy-deals.shtml <comment><USER2> I'm surprised - the market in Australia actually far more crowded than that.

They seem to be missing loupon.com.au houpon.com.au woupon.com.au froupon.com.au doupon.com.au boupon.com.au zoupon.com.au and of course groupon.com</comment>


Why Liberalism Failed - <AUTHOR> https://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21735578-its-best-years-are-behind-it-according-new-book-liberalism-most <comment><USER2> I wonder what children in Western schools must think as they read Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, etc and look at the Western world around them which is so roundly and loudly rejecting the very basis of their current society.

It never fails to amaze me how many people (even in this forum) can rationalize both an intense desire to deny immigrants or "new" people into their culture and yet maintain free speech and the marketplace of ideas as a necessary thing to uphold for a free and just society.

If free speech is so good because good and true ideas always win in the end, then why are Westerners so increasingly concerned about immigrants (and specifically, in recent times, Muslims) entering their countries? If the ideas which underly their societies are so true, exposure to them in the marketplace of ideas should convert many of these immigrants to their way of thinking, yes?

There is always the excuse that they are different, that they won't listen, that they are too entrenched in religious belief, etc. What an anti-humanist perspective to have for a society which owes so much of itself to humanism. How are immigrants somehow not human enough to have the capacity to reason and be convinced of ideas just as everyone else?

The anti-immigrant sentiment of Western societies is a direct manifestation of the rejection of liberalism. I full-heartedly agree with both the book and this review. There is, right now, a direct challenge to liberalism in the Western world. No country which walled itself up and refused to admit outsiders into its society could own the label of liberalism (in terms of the classical philosophy which underpins much of Western society). Not Germany, not China, nor will the Western world be able to do so if it does not steer its ship straight again.

<comment><USER3> > It never fails to amaze me how many people (even in this forum) can > rationalize both an intense desire to deny immigrants or "new" people into > their culture and yet maintain free speech and the marketplace of ideas as a > necessary thing to uphold for a free and just society.

Has it occurred to you that there positions is more nuanced than that? Very few people are against immigration completely, just not mass migration that has become common in much of the west.

As for the market place of ideas, the first problem is that converting people is a slow process and can take many generations. The process can even go backward at times depending on socio economic factors. The other issue is that if you have enough migrants in sufficient concentration then they can build a society within a society, almost entirely cut off from that market place.

<comment><USER2> But why are they against mass migration? It almost always has to do with the culture of the current immigrants being different from the one of the host country.

>As for the market place of ideas, the first problem is that converting people is a slow process and can take many generations. The process can even go backward at times depending on socio economic factors. The other issue is that if you have enough migrants in sufficient concentration then they can build a society within a society, almost entirely cut off from that market place.

So in your mind, the marketplace is not sufficient enough on its own and requires regulations? That's very much not a liberal philosophical principle. It's a rejection of the lassiez-faire approach to speech and ideas which the liberal philosophers championed.

The things you mention apply to all humans, not just migrants. If for example the Universe is heliocentric but the geocentric believers are in sufficient concentration they too can just build a society within the society and shield themselves from the heliocentric people, right? Why did that not happen?

The reason is that migrants cannot realistically avoid all the ideas of the host country while living there. It's not possible. You cannot cut yourself off from a market you live in.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What goes into a personal website? - <AUTHOR>

I have been attempting to build my personal website for a few weeks now, but every time I try to get a start, I have no idea what is eye catching or what should be left out. As a soon-to-be college grad, I think it is important for my site to catch the eye of recruiters and give more information than my resume can, and impress those who are looking at it. Any advice? <comment><USER2> A few thoughts:

Rather than targeting your site at recruiters, target it at the people with significant influence in the hiring decisions. A resume/CV depending on local custom is probably enough for the first look by recruiters, and the more savvy recruiters will want to see the same sort of information as people making hiring decisions.

That said, Github or a StackExchange profiles exist at least in part to allow people to showcase meaningful work without going through the process of designing a portfolio. They let people show what they have done and can do and how they think.

This means that throwing some academic projects onto Github [without violating academic integrity] or BitBucket repository can be meaningful. It's also a way to show that you understand at least a little about distributed version control with git.

Likewise, asking and answering questions on StackExchange's programming related sites can demonstrate knowledge and express a general interest in computing.

That's not to say that building a website isn't worthwhile as a portfolio item. But it may be better to just build a website that does something that you care about coding rather than one which is done out of a sense of "I should". For many people, selling by showing what problems they can solve is a better approach than trying to persuade people in the abstract.

Good Luck.

<comment><USER3> Completely agree with you on this one. Only build the site if you're willing to maintain it long term as well, not just as a means to an end (get a job). Get involved in the community and watch your career grow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think something that is very important to remember from the beginning, is to create a personal "Brand". Use the same profile picture everywhere, including LinkedIn. For your website, target content for people in your field, not recruiters or HR. The companies that you want to work for are ones that understand that contributing to the community is important.

Take content you've written while in school (especially if you're in IT) and put it on GitHub (assuming you can legally). Write about it. Worry less about making it a resume and more about what you're capable of.

That's my two cents... In the end, I found my job via a Twitter follower who happened to be the CIO of a telehealth company. He was most excited that I write content and contribute to the community via Github, Blogs, and Twitter.

Also, make sure to add a personal touch. I've struggled with that on my blog, but am focusing on it more now.

</comment><comment><USER4> I like it oldskool.

\- name, email, location, links (twitter, linkedin, github, ...)

\- Overview of your achievements & how you position yourself ("I am a ...")

Most of the actual content will likely live on other sites (blog, Behance portfolio, ...)

</comment><comment><USER5> Its not Github or LinkedIn, make it personal. You certainly want to show off, but you want to do it in a way that represents you. Really into design? Focus on that and show off your portfolio creatively. Like the backend? Include a few essays talking about your favorite DB or server side language. Spend your free time on projects? Show em off- blog posts, links. Spend it doing something else? Talk about that sick run you shredded in Aspen or the art style you pioneered by getting an Alpaca to roll around on the canvas.

</comment><comment><USER6> 1\. Project/Work done in past

2\. Articles/Blogs written regularly. This showcase that you are aware about current trends

3\. Social - You could add links to your social profiles (Facebook, Twitter etc.) and your professional profile (LinkedIn)

</comment><comment><USER7> Because it's your personal site, you don't want to make it too formal. Definitely include your accomplishments, but have fun with it. Mine is currently under construction, but you are welcome to check it out for ideas...roiatalla.com

</comment><comment><USER8> i have been working my perfect personal website that defines me but doesnt reveal that i really dont know how to make a website, or havent since flash was invented anyway... i have been working on mine for 12 years - dont ever give up</comment>


San Antonio: Google Fiber on Hold - <AUTHOR> http://tpr.org/post/san-antonio-pushes-pause-google-fiber-deployment <comment><USER2> After searching around San Antonio's terrible local news sites for a while, I finally found a picture of the utility building which has put the project on hold: [http://static-21.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/8fc84...](http://static-21.sinclairstoryline.com/resources/media/8fc84e17-9488-4ccf-b2c7-df21e5731323-large16x9_GoogleFiberHut.jpg?1483656014608)

I don't know about everyone else, but my local city has much larger and much uglier utility buildings all over the place for storing municipal equipment. I guess forcing an entire city to live with terrible internet service from incumbent providers seems like a good trade off to avoid having 17 such sheds distributed across an entire city when you're an interfering busybody.

<comment><USER3> One of the problems in the email is that some huts have been located very close to residences and make a lot of noise 24/7.

Maybe there's something to it.

<comment><USER4> The article is very light on details, direct link to email:

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yHnbgE5ocJbUJpWFJGYUVVajg...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4yHnbgE5ocJbUJpWFJGYUVVajg/view)

Is this really NIMBYism? People honestly can't stand a small utility building? It's strikes me as slightly odd that the person is sure that the huts make a lot of noise, but unsure if they operate 24/7 - could this be a way of phrasing that the information comes from a third party?

<comment><USER5> The noise is probably from the air conditioner units which is why the person is unsure how often they operate. They can be quite loud and irritating.

<comment><USER6> The neighbor's house next door also has air conditioning. Why would the hut have to be louder than that?

<comment><USER5> They don't necessarily have to be louder but the two AC units shown in the photo appear to be of the 'louder than a car idling next door' variety. At full bore on a hot summer day you probably wouldn't want to try having a conversation within 10-15ft of them. Hard to say without knowing the details of the sizing or any aftermarket soundproofing they may not be visible in the photo. The neighbors may have a legitimate reason to be upset.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I hope they can get the power companies to get rid of those far uglier electrical substations too.

People want infrastructure, not the infrastructure to support the infrastructure.

This same NIMBY attitude is what kept me from getting faster U-Verse service in my SF neighborhood, because they didn't want the (much smaller) U-Verse cabinets on the street... which left me with Comcast as my only high speed internet choice (with unreliable service -- 10 minute outages 3 or 4 times a week). I was so far from the CO that DSL was around 800kbit. (to be fair, the Comcast problem could have been due to poor interior wiring, but TV worked, so the landlord was unwilling to do anything about it).

<comment><USER8> I'm assuming that is a typo and you're not complaining that you could "only" get 800 megabits per second..

<comment><USER7> Yeah sorry, meant kbit, fixed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I thought Google Fiber was on hold entirely (everywhere) now[1]? Did I misunderstand that?

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/information- technology/2016/10/google...](http://arstechnica.com/information- technology/2016/10/google-fiber-laying-off-9-of-staff-will-pause-plans- for-10-cities/)

<comment><USER10> According the article you just linked, San Antonio was on the list of cities that Google was still committed to with a separate list of paused/canceled cities that San Antonio isn't on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'd drag a 50x30 shack around on a chain everywhere I went if it meant bringing Google Fiber to my area.

</comment><comment><USER12> Here's Sonic's installation video for San Francisco.[1]

Google is talking about San Francisco, but Sonic already has fiber in the entire Sunset and Richmond Districts. Gigabit fiber for $58 per month. Rather than issuing press releases, Sonic is quietly installing fiber.

Their lowest level nodes are boxes on poles. No idea where the next level of concentration is, but they're definitely not putting shipping container sized boxes in SF parks.

SF just passed a new law requiring landlords to allow any network or cable provider to install in their building. No more exclusive deals and kickbacks with Comcast.

Google just isn't very good at this business.

[1] [https://www.sonic.com/sanfrancisco](https://www.sonic.com/sanfrancisco)

</comment><comment><USER13> 50x30?! hahahaha I used to live in San Antonio. San Antonio is MASSIVE land wise, and very sprawling. There's absolutely no density problems what-so-ever.

Ridiculous.

</comment><comment><USER14> As a San Antonio resident, tech industry worker, and optimist about the city's future tech relevance, this is sadly representative of the growing pains we have to overcome. NIMBY, sure, but also simple ignorance about how important this could be, and how some huge the returns could be on such small sacrifices.

Efforts to expand the city's tech scene [1, 2, 3] and a significant tech industry driven by notable employers [4, 5, 6, 7] are too often offset by middle-child syndrome among SA's TX peer cities, and misguided conservatism about preserving aspects of the city very few people would miss. Generally speaking, the city is sprawling and not particularly scenic, and I could name 50 eye-sores worse than a few equipment shelters.

There's no reason we couldn't eventually share in and augment Austin's cachet, both cultural and technological (we're already trending towards a south-Texas megalopolis), but we'll have to embrace our strengths and cast off some of these provincial weaknesses.

Crossing my fingers.

1\. [https://www.satechbloc.com/](https://www.satechbloc.com/)

2\. [http://buildsecfoundry.com/](http://buildsecfoundry.com/)

3\. [http://geekdom.com/](http://geekdom.com/)

4\. [https://www.usaa.com/](https://www.usaa.com/)

5\. [https://www.rackspace.com/](https://www.rackspace.com/)

6\. [http://www.24af.af.mil/](http://www.24af.af.mil/)

7\. [https://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic- centers/texas/](https://www.nsa.gov/about/cryptologic-centers/texas/)

<comment><USER15> Having lived in both San Antonio and Austin, I wouldn't actually mind much if San Antonio's tech scene caught up. I'm at the point I'm contemplating home ownership, and the fact that a decent house in Austin is starting to hit the $400k market while San Antonio's is literally half of that makes San Antonio very attractive nowadays, especially if they ever get shit together and build a rail between the cities. But my employment prospects are severely diminished there, particularly companies that offer the standard tech work environment and benefits.

And yes, before anyone says anything, I know that Austin is still relatively affordable compared to some of the other tech hubs, but its still its expense is still growing quickly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> NIMBY strikes again. But to be honest, a 30' x 50' (9 x 15 meters) equipment shelter is not small. Even I might have objections.

<comment><USER17> I would have no objection to a 30' x 50' Google hut in my neighborhood park if it meant having Fiber Internet available.

<comment><USER3> Parks are parks though. They're not meant to hold internet buildings and other large infrastructure buildings. Why not locate them on commercial space or similar?

<comment><USER18> Certainly you realize if it was that simple it would have been done.

<comment><USER19> But was it cost, lack of available commercial space at the correct nexuses, or ???

<comment><USER18> Does it matter? (I ask seriously) I think you can safely assume that Google would avoid this problem if the cost was not going to seriously affect their plans, because it would be dumb not to. Given that, whether the cost makes it impossible to profit, or the space has to be where it is for logistical reasons, or ... doesn't seem to matter much to me.

<comment><USER19> Perhaps Google perhaps didn't understand quite how delicate certain community members are.

Personally, I would have assumed that the city / council would be pretty cognizant of that and, once the city council bought in, it was likely to be ok.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's ok, AT&T has been aggressively rolling out their fiber service in San Antonio the past year and it's quite good!

Same $70/mo, no data mining, no data caps, no equipment rental fee...and a cool 930-940 Mbps bi-directional...I'm happy :)

</comment><comment><USER21> Google announced Fiber in several bay area cities at least three years ago. Last year there was a news article that the project has been suspended as they can't access the existing utility poles to lay the fiber optic line.

</comment><comment><USER22> If you are in South Africa... [https://www.fibretiger.co.za](https://www.fibretiger.co.za)

</comment><comment><USER23> seems like a bad UX design.

</comment><comment><USER24> I live in Austin, in an area google has designated "the rest of the city", and it's been "coming soon" for a couple of years now.

<comment><USER25> In parts of Austin and San Antonio you can already get fiber from Grande, at a decent price. Why are people so fixated on Google?

Edit to add: googling for info on this, it looks like Google recently bought a stake in Grande! ([http://www.rcrwireless.com/20160816/network- infrastructure/g...](http://www.rcrwireless.com/20160816/network- infrastructure/google-fiber-could-leverage-telco-cable-acquisitions-tag4)) If you can't beat 'em, buy them.

<comment><USER26> I'm in Austin and have access to AT&T Fiber, Google Fiber, and I think even Grande Fiber (I live downtown). All are about the same price. Before I got Google Fiber I had AT&T Fiber. There is absolutely zero difference in speed up and down. I don't get the fixation of Google Fiber either. If you can get fiber from any provider at affordable pricing, jump all over it.

<comment><USER27> I buy plenty of "bandwidth" from TWC but I do not get the streaming quality I expect from youtube or netflix. It always starts out HD enough, but it always falls back to a much lower quality after a few minutes. SpeedTest results suggest this should not happen, but I know my way around the cable company fuckery enough to see that a less-tolled route would probably be superior, even at half the max bandwidth.

<comment><USER26> I had this problem with U-Verse DSL when I lived in Tulsa.

I did not have this issue with AT&T Fiber in Austin. They do not appear to be throttling any services or websites like I experienced with AT&T U-Verse DSL in Tulsa.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'll never had Google Fiber in my lifetime!

</comment><comment><USER29> This is hilarious for a country that takes the "put it all on wooden poles" approach to their cabling.</comment>


Ask HN: Tips on working for multiple clients simultaneously? - <AUTHOR> I started my own one man consulting company earlier this year and so far it's gone very well with my first customer. However, I am in talks to begin an engagement with a second company. The type of work I am doing for both companies is highly collaborative, meaning I need to be available to both sides part time Monday through Friday. Both companies know about each other and have accepted the arrangement. It's all fully remote work.<p>Any tips on keeping both clients happy? How do I manage my time between the two? How do I manage ad-hoc meetings? <comment><USER2> I just had this conversation with some people recently. I've got 4 clients, bit off more than I can chew, and the switching costs take about 2-3 days unfortunately.

Some tips:

1\. Don't switch right in the middle of something difficult. I do this as a way of procrastinating, and it takes a very long time to get into the rhythm again.

2\. If something is a WIP over a break (e.g. weekend), get back to it as soon as you're back and don't switch.

3\. I would recommend spending one week per client if possible, but it doesn't look like your situation. So another alternative is a time block like one day, or a half day.

4\. You probably want to schedule meeting times, even if it's only one client. Interruptions are bad. The uncertainty of a future interruption could make you procrastinate. If you've got two clients, this anxiety is squared.

5\. Some things have low switching cost, e.g. writing tests. This was one thing I frequently did on the train and it's a good way to buy time. Meetings too.

It is hard, and while two are okay, I wouldn't recommend doing more.

</comment><comment><USER3> Easy way is to split your days, no way you are working 16 billable hours 5 days a week, so split your days and set office hours for each client where you are available for ad-hoc meetings. And tell them that you are open to communication outside those hours as well (within reason), but it will be best effort responses. Generally if you are up front they will accept you have other clients to work on, and as long as your billings match what they feel you are doing all is good.

This is how I started mine when I did them, it is normal and totally fair to everyone involved. Just gotta set boundaries for yourself and clients. Clients will abuse you, sometimes intentionally, other times unintentionally, if you do not define boundaries. Like gldev said in his comment, it is easy for work to start spilling into the evenings and weekends in an unhealthy way and then you are burnt out and clients start getting upset if you don't reset expectations quick enough.

Even when my consulting businesses grew I would set full time to clients at 32hrs a week for every resource, with the other 8 hours being used for admin stuff etc. I also charged weekly rates per resource so a little different than hourly time. For any work less than a full week I would do day rates to fill in odd jobs. And we didn't screw clients either, if something took us 20 minutes no one ever saw a bill for those 20 minutes, they would see an invoice, just no charge for the time (typically this happened more with existing clients calling for support after projects completed).

</comment><comment><USER4> Don't underestimate the cost of switching contexts. I find that when I have two projects on the go, even the most trivial "5 minute" request that comes in via Slack or Email has the potential to bomb the next 2 hours. You have to unload everything from one project and then reload everything from project two. Any momentum you had from the first project is now definitly gone and needs to be built up for the second project.

</comment><comment><USER5> Been there and done that, it is key to manage expectation with both companies AND yourself. Make sure every assignment is very well thought out and planned, try to minimize long meetings by doing more small ones asking stuff like : what was achieved yesterday, what will we achieve today, and do I need help from anyone?.

Make sure to get rest and definitely try to scale your operation and avoid moving work to weekends because it will get out of control very fast. I made the mistake of taking more than i could chew and had to let go one of my clients because I was so tired i couldn't keep the quality of my work just as I wanted to.

</comment><comment><USER6> I cannot recall the specific blog post, but I remember the idea a few years back. This one consultant would send a weekly recap to each client on Friday afternoon. This recap would summarize the status of the project.

The clients loved the consultant for this one thing. I guess it was not a very common thing to do.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Very good advice all around. Thanks for the help!

</comment><comment><USER7> Be extremely organized.</comment>


Turing Learning uses Turing test to drive unsupervised learning - <AUTHOR> http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/4761.html <comment><USER2> Great find on the article. Perhaps one day the judges for the Loebren Prize will be replaced by these "self-learning" robots. There is a discussion about this on Metaculus-

[http://www.metaculus.com/questions/73/will-the-silver- turing...](http://www.metaculus.com/questions/73/will-the-silver-turing-test- be-passed-by-2026/)

<comment><USER3> Do you have some kind of relationship with Metaculus? Because 9 of your 10 most recent postings mention them...</comment></comment>


Goodbye with Love - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dhf1vo/goodbye_with_love/ <comment><USER2> It looks like he's looking for some help getting something set up for donations for his wife. Doesn't look like he's getting much actionable advice there. Maybe someone here can help?

[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dhf1vo/comment/f3opz...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dhf1vo/comment/f3opzf3)

<comment><USER3> It's gaining some traction:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dhlvtu/setting_up_do...](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/dhlvtu/setting_up_donation_drive_for_cooper_stevenson/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why do we spend so many trillions of dollars in wars and pointless witch-hunts like "the war on drugs" instead of searching for cures and treatments for all these major diseases, knowledge about the human body would be ages ahead if we had realized that decades ago; but like they say the second best time to start is now, and as weird as it sounds the solution is to focus the adults of tomorrow into such ideals, meaning actions like showing them what is like to deal with such terrible diseases, teaching them about all the pointless pursuits where we have wasted unfathomable amounts of money so they may not repeat the same mistakes.

<comment><USER5> Whilst I agree that there are some very wrongheaded policies out there which waste resources, good scientists and medical researchers (or if you prefer, people who could potentially be good scientists and medical researchers) are a limited resource and they're not being diverted, on the whole, to the war on drugs etc.

It might be more relevant to think/complain about eg why data scientists are going into advertising instead of certain types of medical research where their skills might be very relevant.

<comment><USER6> It is surprisingly difficult for private sector data scientists and engineers to help with any type of research. Universities look at data problems and just throw unpaid/underpaid graduate and undergraduate students at the problems. There is no way any private sector data scientists can compete with that. Even trying to create tools for the grad students to use isn't really that viable. There is so little budget to spend on the tools, and the turnover is very high in research, so the amount of time it takes for sales people to forge relationships and trust is lost. I am not sure what the answer is. I have seen some spectacular utilization of data analytics and science by insurance, banking, credit unions etc. that I think would directly translate to better medical research, but I have no idea what path to take to bring it there.

<comment><USER7> Maybe reach out to some enterprising professors you knew in college and offer your specialties?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> His first post in the ALS subreddit is a Morse keypaddle hooked up to a 32 bit microcontroller...

[https://www.reddit.com/r/ALS/comments/98zvwm/i_dont_know_if_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ALS/comments/98zvwm/i_dont_know_if_this_is_useful_but_i_built_a_morse/)

<comment><USER9> How brilliant. It's a shame the post didn't get any traction at the time

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> > _Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), also known as motor neurone disease > (MND) or Lou Gehrig 's disease, is a specific disease that causes the death > of neurons controlling voluntary muscles._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotrophic_lateral_sclerosis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyotrophic_lateral_sclerosis)

</comment><comment><USER11> don't know ya Cooper just did a quick google on ya and viewed the reddit post, from what i gather you made the world a better place. thank you.

<comment><USER12> He made the entire open source community better and will be incredibly missed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Horrible disease, and a shame that we are unable still to understand the problem correctly to be able to strike back

My sympathy for this man and his family. I hope that this will not destroy them, but will be a hard fight. The worst and more challenging three years of their life, that's for sure.

</comment><comment><USER14> Sad to hear. Reminds me of Hal Finney who died from ALS in 2014.

<comment><USER15> Another hero who died too soon...

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I don't know much about ALS. How does one know that he is going to die "in the coming days"?

<comment><USER17> My understanding was that as it's a progressive disease, there are milestones in progression that help predict future events. Things tend to shut down in a particular order, and at a certain rate (based on past events and stressors).

One of those future events is losing the ability to breathe. Which is just horrifying to think about.</comment></comment>


How Anne Wojcicki's 23andMe Will Mine Its Giant DNA Database - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2019/06/06/23andme-dna-test-anne-wojcicki-prevention-plans-drug-development/ <comment><USER2> DNA sequences should be viewed differently than other personal data, since they are personal not only for you, but also for your children, grandchildren, siblings, parents, etc. When you make a decision to share this data, you are making a decision for them, too. The implications might not be the same for your great-great-grandchildren, but who can tell whether the impact will be better or worse? How will it be possible to use the information in the future, when technology, science, law, politics, and social customs might be quite different?

We often see complaints about big companies selling their users' personal data, but in this case the decision lies with each individual who shares his DNA sequence. Do you believe it is ethical to share your relatives' personal data without their consent?

<comment><USER3> You are leaving a DNA trail in your wake, and it's only private or personal insofar as no one looked at it. But it seems like it's something that we really have no hopes of keeping private over any reasonable timeline into the future.

<comment><USER4> Aren't we moving the goalposts as technology advances?

For instance, your DNA used to be private in the past simply because no one could do anything with it even if they would get it. So you benefited from this privacy aspect by default. In the next 20 years your DNA will probably be in multiple databases somewhere even if you never offered it to companies.

Similarly, in the past you may have benefited from the privacy of your own home. You could say or do anything you wanted and that would be kept private (for the most part). Now, with all the "always-on" smartphones and smart home devices and surveillance cameras, everything you do or say in your home will be on someone else's server, which can be data mined, sold to third-parties, requested by various law enforcement agencies, and stolen by cybercriminals.

It seems to me that from your point of view and with enough technology advances we'll have 0% privacy in the future. Everything around us will listen to us and watch us, and then others, with who you may have never interacted, will also get to see and analyze all of that data.

So the technology could enable all of this -- but the question is _should we let it?_ Privacy is a human right for a very good reason -- abuses against someone's private life can lead to all sorts of nefarious things against that person, whether it's something as "benign" as increasing your insurance rates to not offering your free/cheap healthcare because you "live too dangerously" or malicious actors and government agents using it to destroy your life for profit or personal vendettas.

<comment><USER3> In the case of smart devices in your home we do still have a choice -- just don't buy them or use them, or ensure that the ones you do use have strong protections, etc. However with DNA it is like you are screaming it in countless public places daily and it was only ignorance that protected its privacy. That time is rapidly coming to a close. The cost and time of processing it, once prohibited, has fallen through the floor and soon enough just doing mass dragnets is going to be trivial. It seems likely that generating facial profiles from DNA is not too far off either. Couple that with a facial recognition system and you have a deep identity.

We should fight it as possible, but we'll see how far that gets us.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Anyone surprised? For this and other reasons I've refused to use their service and other services like theirs.

Here's a service. Pay to get your panel/exome/whole genome sequenced, put your data on gcp/aws/azure, user open source to do variant analysis and pay a specialist for their computer aided analysis.

Guess what, you own your data end to end. I imagine the above could be had for less than $2k. Some startup will write the software stack to do this and simply sell licenses for software you run anywhere you want.

<comment><USER6> Federal law requires that labs retain the results of genetic testing for a minimum of 10 years.

> Reports of genetic testing must be retained for at least 10 years. > Electronic records are acceptable. Specific regulations for specimen > retention are not proposed, but each laboratory must have a written policy > defining its own specimen retention policy.

[http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/45/5/739](http://clinchem.aaccjnls.org/content/45/5/739)

<comment><USER7> This is for CLIA tests, i.e. clinical tests. 23andMe is explicitly NOT this as they can't make medical claims. Just getting a piece of DNA sequenced does not require this kind of retention; GP is right, this is a viable business plan.

Data retention is the next big wave and these companies would do well to clue in. There is zero chance they will find anything medically useful with their database and a ton of outstabding liability once people realize how it can be abused.

<comment><USER8> 23andMe is CLIA certified and FDA authorized, and makes many medical claims. From [1]:

"CLIA certification and CAP accreditation 23andMe laboratory testing is done in U.S. laboratories certified to meet CLIA (Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments of 1988) standards, including qualifications for individuals performing testing and other standards to ensure the accuracy and reliability of results. The laboratory is also accredited by the College of American Pathologists (CAP), which has served as a model for various federal, state, and private laboratory accreditation programs throughout the world."

FDA authorizations for 23andMe's personal genome service are available online, e.g. [2] for Alzheimer's disease risk reporting based on the E4 variant of the APOE gene.

The company also offers ancestry reports, which are not clinical and thus covered by CLIA. But medical claims in 23andMe's health reports do comply with CLIA and other regulations.

1\. [https://medical.23andme.com/dna- kits/#clia](https://medical.23andme.com/dna-kits/#clia)

2\. [https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf16/DEN160026.pdf](https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf16/DEN160026.pdf)

<comment><USER7> Hmm, news to me. In any case the point still stands that you can do SNP sequencing without being CLIA certified.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm not a huge fan of GSK making money off this data, but I am a huge fan of having the data be available. Did you know you can download all your 23andMe data and make it publicly available through openhumans.org? Here's mine:

[https://www.openhumans.org/member/iandanforth/](https://www.openhumans.org/member/iandanforth/)

I want this data out there to help any and all researchers. The more free, public data exists the easier it is for researchers without GSK levels of cash to make discoveries and contribute back to the community. Just like OSS, someone has to be willing to give away something that has historically been sold. I'm willing to do that and I hope you will as well.

<comment><USER10> Thank you for being so open. I feel similarly about my own genes but I do not have them sequenced yet. A lot of people are talking about the security concerns and whose making money.

Valid concerns, but I think medicine does need vast amounts of genetic data available to actually make some progress. Medical progress is not advancing fast enough by some very real metrics (5 year cancer survival rate over 40 years is not at ALL impressive when you factor in diagnoses being made earlier).

Ownership of this data is important, but if genetic data was more freely shared I think medical progress would benefit.

<comment><USER11> > _...but I think medicine does need vast amounts of genetic data available to > actually make some progress._

How does more genetic data equate to better progress with medicine? Are we testing medicine against specific genome sequences, now? If so, how are we doing that without the source host[s] to test against?

> _Medical progress is not advancing fast enough by some very real metrics..._

Again, I'm not seeing how these two equate, whatsoever.

For what you're talking about the genomes would have to be reproduced, such as the markers that are the precursors for breastcancer. Then, the tissues, themselves, would have to be reproduced and _then_ you'd have an effective field with which to test new medicines against (unless you just use the people with the markers to test).

How you're getting from a mapped sequence to better medicine is... ...we're simply not there, yet, technologically, I believe. Unless you know something I don't? ( _Which could very well be the case, admittedly, but I doubt we 're at the stage of computer models for genome engineering, tissue growth, cellular division, etc. all in one._)

<comment><USER8> Large genetic datasets yield medical progress by increasing statistical power of tests. These better tests enable earlier and more targeted treatment.

Take heart disease. It has a significant but complex genetic component. Many genetic variants each contribute a small amount to risk for heart disease. If a given person has many small risk variants, the sum total risk -- often called "polygenic score" \-- can be relatively high.

People in the top 8% of polygenic scores had a 3x higher risk for heart disease than the general population [1][2]. Through techniques like polygenic scoring, large genetic datasets enable uniquely early detection of high risk for the world's leading cause of death.

[1] [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0183-z](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0183-z)

[2] [https://www.vox.com/science-and- health/2018/8/24/17759772/ge...](https://www.vox.com/science-and- health/2018/8/24/17759772/genetics-polygenic-risk-heart-disease-nature)

<comment><USER11> Ah, yes, polygenic scoring and the heart disease increase rate. Did you happen to catch this[0] refutation of the single source's work?

[0] - [https://twitter.com/cecilejanssens/status/103135930540723404...](https://twitter.com/cecilejanssens/status/1031359305407234048)

Also, you're posing prediction and targeted treatment but you haven't posited _how_ Bob's mapped genome sitting in 23andme will be used for medical treatment.

As we know, genes are not an emphatic, "this will happen to you," but an increase in likelihood; which still doesn't translate to any emphatic treatments from the genes, themselves, yeah?

<comment><USER8> > refutation of the single source's work

Janssens seems less skeptical of 23andMe's paper on polygenic score for type 2 diabetes [1][2], which -- interestingly -- positively cites the Khera 2018 paper on polygenic score for heart disease that she critiqued. Some researchers are skeptical, but the medical community generally seems to consider polygenic scores promising for tests [3][4].

> you haven't posited how Bob's mapped genome sitting in 23andme will be used > for medical treatment.

Early intervention. Polygenic scores could be used for medical treatment by motivating earlier intervention. That could include stronger recommendations for better diet and exercise, closer monitoring programs, or more precise prescriptions. That, in turn, could reduce disease burden.

[1] [https://twitter.com/cecilejanssens/status/113707970323438797...](https://twitter.com/cecilejanssens/status/1137079703234387971)

[2] [https://permalinks.23andme.com/pdf/23_19-Type2Diabetes_March...](https://permalinks.23andme.com/pdf/23_19-Type2Diabetes_March2019.pdf)

[3] [https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1129780543434964993](https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1129780543434964993)

[4] [https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...](https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1002546)

<comment><USER11> > _...could be used for medical treatment by motivating earlier > intervention..._

and

> _...could include stronger recommendations for better diet and exercise, > closer monitoring programs, or more precise prescriptions..._

and

> _...could reduce disease burden..._

This is where the problem delineates for me: We're being massively assumptive in moving from "could" to "is" and "will".

I will, generally, concede the could portion but to assert that it is emphatically happening or going to happen is still far from fruition and to label this science as such, just yet, is overreaching and giving false hope where none should really be given because, then, you'll taint it's benefits with the drawbacks.

Remember: Anonymised data (e.g.: 23andme) only allows a survey of what's relatively known or can be inferred from the anonymised dataset.

To arrive at what you're suggesting, it would have to move into a different realm (I believe), like UK BioBank or GEDMatch but, even then, we're still basing things on speculative science - gambles of percentages that aren't, emphatically, true or false but a kind of "maybe, kind of, sort of, in a way, definitely could or defintely could not" muddied waters.

That, to me, is a far stretch from saying that the data in 23andme is - actually - helping medicine; which I believe is what the OC I replied to emphatically said.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I am for one glad my data is in there. Disease and aging should be our number 1 priority. If your governement and insurance systems are shitty and spy and exclude people, you should fix that instead of putting barriers to science opportunity.

<comment><USER13> > Disease and aging should be our number 1 priority

Humans are ballooning as a species and hurting the planet and causing other species to go extinct... and you want to eliminate disease and aging from said species?

<comment><USER14> Only specific sub groups are doing that:

[https://www.populationpyramid.net/static/population- projecti...](https://www.populationpyramid.net/static/population- projections.png)

Or to be specific, Africa and West Asia, due to a lack of access to contraception. That can be solved by redirecting 100% of aid towards education, contraception and abortion for women, and away from food aid.

<comment><USER15> Your proposed solution may sound unorthodox, but it's an interesting view on how to solve the problem in the long term. Although I don't think it will be viable politically nor socially accepted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The main priority of these medical and genetic companies is to make money. Safety, ethics and privacy are secondary until they effect the profit. It seems increasingly apparent that public funding and open source efforts are required to advance the science, healing and education of our planet.

DNA SNPs are one thing, but genetic expression (phenotype) is immensely complex due to the number of variables. For example, mammalian immune systems are highly redundant across the body and continually signal with cytokines and chemokines to manipulate the immune response that is internally/externally environment dependent. Our bodies continually work to remove/detox OR sequester pathogens, toxins, metals, etc. This usually results in isolated and/or systemic inflammation across the body. Many of the pathogens manifest with overlapping symptoms making it hard to isolate without better diagnostic tools. For example, my two strains of Bartonella cause inflammation in many similar areas that Lyme bacteria do and Babesia has another similar set. It is hard to isolate those symptoms from the mold toxins and metal (aluminum, arsenic, lead) buildup that I also have. Functional doctors believe the HLA SNPs play a role in accumulation rather than removal. Enter saunas/sweat tents/etc that many cultures used for centuries (lymphatic detox).

Enter public funding to invent better and cheaper measuring equipment where each of us owns the data. Privacy protection is also important. We live on a planet with immense biodiversity, albeit shrinking daily due to human activities, where we coexist with bacteria, pathogens, molecules, industrial toxins, etc -- It's time we start to learn more about everything ... gathering data in a coherent schema and applying ML can certainly help.

That is why there are a number of studies that list various pathogens in brain deposits for Alzheimers, MS, Giant Cell, etc -- Feel free to google and research many of the terms above and reach your own conclusions :-)

</comment><comment><USER17> When will people place a value on their personal data? A video uploaded with a copyrighted song in the background can be challenged by the IP owner and often is. But even with public outrage over things like PI breaches at Equifax, 23andme gets full ownership of peoples' dna.

<comment><USER18> Let's play devils advocate - "So what? What is the big deal if my DNA info is out in the public?"

<comment><USER19> Are you comfortable paying more for health insurance because you lost the generic lottery? How about facing persecution because of your ancestry? Hiring discrimination?

(Of course the data doesn't have to be accurate or the analysis correct to suffer.)

<comment><USER20> That's been illegal since 2010.

And besides, 23andme's research data is anonymized.

<comment><USER17> Then how did they identify a murderer from the dna submitted from a cousin/relative?

<comment><USER12> the user had uploaded their exported 23andme (or similar) data to GEDmatch on their own volition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> _> Wojcicki was also building out an in-house drug-research group and tapping into a new revenue source: recruiting thousands of patients from 23andMe's database for pharmaceutical firms' clinical trials._

This is the most responsible way to use the data.

The way this model works is that a pharmaceutical companies have a question that requires a genetic database to answer. They then pay 23andMe for the results of these tests.

23andMe does not have to give up any customer data to any third party and can at the same time build a solid business model around using their data for positive medical advancements.

</comment><comment><USER22> Hasn't anyone ever watched Gattaca before shipping their DNA sample to a Silicon Valley company ?

<comment><USER20> Gattaca is not a documentary

<comment><USER23> Neither is the 2059 Genetic Equality Program, described in this op-ed: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/27/opinion/ted-chiang- future...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/27/opinion/ted-chiang-future- genetic-engineering.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I regret taking their test with 200 bucks now. It used to be novel and years back, the concept of a totalitarian society with surveillance, database, social credit was still very remote

<comment><USER25> In the UK credit scores have been tied to social behaviors like voting. Similarly London has been famed for their CCTV system that allegedly keeps crime low. And let's not forget the CompStat database system that is credited with turning NYC from one of the most dangerous western cities to one of the safest. My point is, that at least within the time range of cheap genetic tests, these "totalitarian" systems have already been in place.

<comment><USER26> > voting

How?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Anne Wojcicki, ex-wife of billionaire Sergey Brinand whose sister is CEO of Youtube is at the helm of the most invasive and extensive data set known to man. Don't fool yourselves: DNA databases form the bedrock of de-anonymization so crucial to the Surveillance State, containing the non-consentiory grounding of your existence and your lineage. And let us not forget the easiness of collection, for a sample of sputum suffices.

</comment><comment><USER28> This is so rude and self-aggrandizing: "Anne Wojcicki is 45 minutes late, something so encoded in her habits as 23andMe's CEO that employees have stopped complaining about it. They know it's hardwired. They know it's hardwired. On a Thursday morning in April, her team is waiting patiently as she swirls into the company's headquarters"

From the opening sentence, I already don't like her.

<comment><USER29> Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Why isn't this protected medical information?

</comment><comment><USER31> Some time ago a friend who works at a biotech startup in the DNA sequencing space told me there's no way 23andMe's price covers the sequencing cost and that they must be subsidizing the kits so they can sell the mined data later.

</comment><comment><USER32> quick america! fix your health system before the insurance companies know all

<comment><USER33> It's been illegal to discriminate health insurance based on DNA content since 2010

<comment><USER34> And as we all know, insurance companies never do illegal things

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I recently interviewed with a 23andMe employee and specifically asked about the company's concerns regarding the public's perception of data privacy. The 23andMe employee was _absolutely adamant_ that 23andMe would _never_ sell customer data or allow anyone else access to it for commercial reasons. They said it went totally against company principles and that the company cares deeply about it.

And now this. I wonder if that employee was just not very attentive to what was actually going on, or perhaps the company leadership deceived the rest of the company? Or maybe this is just yet another example of a once-noble company inevitably succumbing to the allure of "growth at all costs".

</comment><comment><USER36> You can always fake your name when you submit the DNA. Then this doesn't really matter.

<comment><USER24> or can you? you have your credit card information surrendered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Good luck getting an insurance when they got your DNA

</comment><comment><USER38> \- Business model? "... generating an estimated $475 million in revenue for the company, which has yet to turn a profit."

\- Medical legitimacy? "Effectively what you have is a technology that is neither that helpful [nor] that harmful (...) Dr. Jonathan Berg, a clinical geneticist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."

\- PR Signaling? "It was so unacceptable to her as a compassionate human," says Ashley Dombkowski, (...) "She is undeterred by massive, worthwhile problems."

\- Personal Branding? Cue the Jobs-esque clad-in-black shots.

\- 'Certainty' in the face of material uncertainty? "By October 2013, 23andMe was in talks with Target and Wojcicki was pushing hard to enter stores before the holidays (...) Emily Drabant Conley, recalls Wojcicki's certainty when an exec thought it was impossible to meet the time line: "Anne was like, 'This is a company that was founded on impossible.'" But in the end, impossible won. It would take three more years for 23andMe to get onto Target's shelves. "

... so where have seen seen this before?

I'm glad that Forbes is taking a slightly more skeptical tone this time, at least calling out some of the issues and not taking PR at face value.

I actually hope they are successful, though I'll never participate due to obvious privacy concerns.

</comment><comment><USER22> Hasnt anybody ever watched Gattaca ?</comment>


Run Angular CLI repos directly in your browser - <AUTHOR> https://blog.angular.io/run-angular-cli-repos-directly-in-your-browser-41332fd80901 <comment><AUTHOR> tl;dr: Use this bookmark on any GitHub repo of an Angular CLI project to instantly run it:

        javascript:location = location.toString().replace('github.com', 'stackblitz.com/github')</comment>


Show HN: My embedded DSL for HTML in Python - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/goldmab/bewilder

<comment><AUTHOR> I made this for some personal projects of mine, since I like using Python itself to do my HTML templating. I haven't tested it in very many situations, so there are a probably few bugs still.</comment>


Ask Different (a Stack Overflow site for Apple) has officially launched - <AUTHOR> http://apple.stackexchange.com/

<comment><USER2> I'm surprised it took so long, but _wow_ , what a terrible UI! Whereas the majority of the other StackExchange network sites have fairly clean, sparse, and well whitespaced designs, this apple Q&A site is a real eyesore! It looks like a site from.... 2002? with too many colors and too many icons all packed together.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll admit that it is a little busy (and there are a lot of gradients), but I wouldn't call it _terrible_. If you have specific suggestions, the designer is open to making changes:

[http://meta.apple.stackexchange.com/questions/291/new- design...](http://meta.apple.stackexchange.com/questions/291/new-design- launched)

<comment><USER3> a couple notes:

* Poor, low contrast on text across the site

* The nav links at the top have a different baseline than the search box and StackExchange logo.

* The active item in the active | featured | hot | week | month link row doesn't appear to be on the same baseline as the inactive items.

<comment><USER4> > * The active item in the active | featured | hot | week | month link row > doesn't appear to be on the same baseline as the inactive items.

The metaphor seems to be radio buttons; I would expect a depressed button to have text lower down than a non-pressed button, but that's not the case here. I did some pixel peeping, and the active item's text is in exactly the same horizontal pixel line as the inactive items. Frankly, though, I think they look fairly slick.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Serious stack overload. Why so many sites to get answers? We need a "which site stack" to ask which stack site to go to. Isn't that what tags are for?

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow.. that's a great news ! Long wait is over.

</comment><comment><USER7> Stack Overload</comment>


Building a .com in 24 hours - <AUTHOR> http://dominiek.com/articles/2008/1/6/building-a-com-in-24-hours

<comment><USER2> I loved the parenthetical note by TextMate "...use the trial version and reset your clock!" Since you're building commercial software, the folks at TextMate might want to have a discussion with you, dude...

<comment><USER3> I thought that comment lent a lot of insight into the mind of the author.

On one hand, he's trying to make a buck. On the other, he figures it's okay to take advantage of someone else in the same situation.

I wonder if he even understands the contradiction of ethics?

<comment><USER4> In his defense, he wrote this in response to a comment similar to yours:

"Actually, I am paying for TextMate, I guess I wanted to make a comment about trying to do things cheaply - bad joke. If one piece of software is worth buying it, it's TextMate!"

He also just deleted the part about resetting your clock from the post. Sounds like he was just trying to spice things up a little.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Very nice article, but what is this?

> Running things in the background X dubbed backgrounding X is > an important > part of production ready web applications. It's > a relatively new concept, > since web applications used to be > less complex.

That made me smile.

</comment><comment><USER6> Most useful article I've read in a long time. Grat for rails developers who wan't to put stuff out there fast.

</comment><comment><USER7> "...24 concentrated hours spread out over 4 days..."

Oh.

Reminded me of the old Steven Wright joke when he went to the Quickie Mart and it was closed.

He said, "But the sign says 'Open 24 Hours'"

The owner replied, "Not in a row."

</comment><comment><USER8> I tried to reach the site he built few times today and it was down every time I tried to open it. Ouch.

 _Proxy Error_

 _The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server._ _The proxy server could not handle the request GET /._

 _Reason: Error reading from remote server_

</comment><comment><USER9> The article uses links in red and blue. That confuses me a bit - Wikipedia has trained me to see red links as indicating missing targets.

Anyone else sharing this affliction?

</comment><comment><USER10> I think i broke it :-X

<comment><USER11> No worries!

I had some issues with a sudden spike in load so I just added an extra machine. Hope that will get me going for a couple of days :-)

<comment><USER4> It wasn't working for me yesterday as well, but it looks like all is well again.

However, one thing that I've gotten used to with sites using textareas meant for copying and pasting is that when you click in the box it automatically selects all of the text for you, eliminating the need for any scrolling. For sites like yours whose success is based not only on its usefulness but also the small amount of time needed to get started, minor shortcuts like that can dramatically change the overall user experience if you can make your set up as painless as possible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Great article.</comment>