Browserball - <AUTHOR> http://weareinstrument.com/ball/# <comment><USER2> I built this in like 2009 or 2010. Super curious how it managed to resurface now.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is amazing.

Kind of like when I first dragged a window across multiple monitors in the 90s. We are so used to content being stuck in artificial containers that it's kind of crazy when it transcends them.

<comment><USER4> There was a clever game called Metal Marines back then that exploited this idea - the game was a 1v1 base-building RTS where each player's "base" was on its own map in its own window. When you fired missiles or launched APCs from one base into the other, the missile would fly out of your base window, _over the desktop_ and into the other window to hit his base. The effect was jaw- dropping even though it was a simple and cartoony game.

<comment><USER5> Thank you! I was looking for that game a few days ago, but couldn't remember the name at all! And it looks like there's a reboot of it on Steam: [http://store.steampowered.com/app/335940/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/335940/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What's the reason for allowing web pages to get absolute screen coordinates?

This is a privacy leak. I have a 24" screen, and I don't keep the browser window maximized because it would be too big. I presume other people do to, and I'm pretty sure most have a preferred size and position.

<comment><USER7> How do you know the coordinates are absolute?

It seems like the child windows are 'special', perhaps the web page can obtain the relative coordinates of these child panels?

<comment><USER8> It's using window.screenY (and screenX, of course,) which gives absolute coordinates. [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/API/Window/scre...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/API/Window/screenY)

I don't think the method you're describing exists. If you want child coordinates relative to parent coordinates, you would use both the parent and child's absolute coordinates.

<comment><USER7> Thanks to you (and others who've provided this information), so I guess my question now is what is the privacy leak described. I understand that the browser is confessing information about the machine to the web page but I don't understand why that represents a private piece of information. I feel like the information about where the window is located on the screen is useful for implementation and I can't think what it says about me as a user.

<comment> nommm-nommm Nothing on its own. However it is one of the pieces of information used to create a unique fingerprint for your browser which can be used to track you as you travel across the web. IIRC Tor browser recommends never resizing the window from the browser's default window size.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I remember this demo when Chrome first came out. I thought that was the coolest thing.

edit: I found the original site that I linked to this. Courtesy of archive.org: [http://web.archive.org/web/20120214090814/http://blog.insicd...](http://web.archive.org/web/20120214090814/http://blog.insicdesigns.com/2010/02/mind- blowing-javascript-experiments/)

</comment><comment><USER10> I think the thing I like most about this is how it's evidently very imperfect - the ball sometimes goes missing, the rules for what velocity it needs to bounce from one window to another seem hazy, etc - but none of that really matters: it's fun and cool to play about with for a minute or two, it doesn't at all take itself seriously, and you know that any real implementation of this sort of thing, if there were an actual need for it, would be implemented more robustly anyway.

</comment><comment><USER11> I made a project in college like this that utilized the Windows API to enumerate the rectangles of the windows and you could create shapes and other things that you can throw around your desktop

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38qWXZ0hDv4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38qWXZ0hDv4)

</comment><comment><USER12> I am frustrated that it's 2016, and we still can't tilt windows diagonally.

<comment><USER13> Meaning ?

<comment><USER12> Then you could make the ball roll down towards the corner and drop into another window, of course!

The NeWS window system let you reshape the entire framebuffer to any orientation or clipping, as well as individual windows and sub-windows, in the late 1980's.

Why shouldn't I be able to lay down on my side next to a laptop and read a web page off the screen sideways, or adjust the rotation of the window to match the inclination of my pillow?

The other thing I want the window manager to support (which NeWS couldn't do since PostScript only supports 2D affine transforms) is estimating my head position relative to the screen, and projecting the window in perspective so it looks rectangular from an oblique viewing angle, so I can watch a movie on an extra screen off to the side.

If you could rotate windows around on the screen, Browser Ball should be able to use the laptop accelerometer to detect the true direction of gravity, and bounce the ball accordingly as you turned the windows and the laptop itself around.

Unfortunately Apple stopped putting accelerometers in laptops with SSD drives, since they were only used to retract the heads when falling.

You can do a lot of fun things by modeling and tracking the positions of multiple people's heads and multiple devices in augmented reality! Here are two people using two tablets, two laptops, and a desktop computer together with Pantomime: [1]

[1] [https://vimeo.com/149319403](https://vimeo.com/149319403)

<comment><USER13> Why did I not read your nickname .. :)

The pseudo billboard idea is cute, but I wonder how it fares in readability on non HD screen (font rendering in 3D space may impede it, then viewing angles.). I'd love to see it done anyway, it's cute idea.

Another 'this is <year>' rant, we should have way more sensors on usb or i2c and have our laptops integrate with the real world more.

<comment><USER12> Here are some ideas and discussion about aQuery -- like jQuery for accessibility [1] -- which would be useful for implementing this kind of stuff out of of existing window systems and desktop applications.

[1] aQuery: [http://donhopkins.com/mediawiki/index.php/AQuery](http://donhopkins.com/mediawiki/index.php/AQuery)

Morgan Dixon's work is truly breathtaking and eye opening, and I would love for that to be a core part of a scriptable hybrid Screen Scraping / Accessibility API approach.

Screen scraping techniques are very powerful, but have limitations. Accessibility APIs are very powerful, but have different limitations. But using both approaches together, screencasting and re-composing visual elements, and tightly integrating it with JavaScript, enables a much wider and interesting range of possibilities.

Think of it like augmented reality for virtualizing desktop user interfaces. The beauty of Morgan's Prefab is how it works across different platforms and web browsers, over virtual desktops, and how it can control, sample, measure, modify, augment and recompose guis of existing unmodified applications, even dynamic language translation, so they're much more accessible and easier to use!

\----

James Landay replies:

Don,

This is right up the alley of UW CSE grad student Morgan Dixon. You might want to also look at his papers.

Don emails Morgan Dixon:

Morgan, your work is brilliant, and it really impresses me how far you've gone with it, how well it works, and how many things you can do with it!

I checked out your web site and videos, and they provoked a lot of thought so I have lots of questions and comments.

I really like the UI Customization stuff, and also the sideviews!

Combining your work with everything you can do with native accessibility APIs, in an HTML/JavaScript based, user-customizable, scriptable, cross platform user interface builder like (but transcending) HyperCard would be awesome!

I would like to discuss how we could integrate Prefab with a Javascriptable, extensible API like aQuery, so you could write "selectors" that used prefab's pattern recognition techniques, bind those to JavaScript event handlers, and write high level widgets on top of that in JavaScript, and implement the graphical overlays and gui enhancements in HTML/Canvas/etc like I've done with Slate and the WebView overlay.

Users could literally drag controls out of live applications, plug them together into their own "stacks", configure and train and graphically customize them, and hook them together with other desktop apps, web apps and services!

For example, I'd like to make a direct manipulation pie menu editor, that let you just drag controls out of apps and drop them into your own pie menus, that you can inject into any application, or use in your own guis. If you dragged a slider out of an app into the slice of a pie menu, it could rotate it around to the slice direction, so that the distance you moved from the menu center controlled the slider!

While I'm at it, here's some stuff I'm writing about the jQuery Pie Menus. [http://donhopkins.com/mediawiki/index.php/JQuery_Pie_Menus](http://donhopkins.com/mediawiki/index.php/JQuery_Pie_Menus)

\----

Web Site: Morgan Dixon's Home Page. [http://morgandixon.net/](http://morgandixon.net/)

Web Site: Prefab: The Pixel-Based Reverse Engineering Toolkit. [https://web.archive.org/web/20130104165553/http://homes.cs.w...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130104165553/http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mdixon/research/prefab/)

Video: Prefab: What if We Could Modify Any Interface? Target aware pointing techniques, bubble cursor, sticky icons, adding advanced behaviors to existing interfaces, independent of the tools used to implement those interfaces, platform agnostic enhancements, same Prefab code works on Windows and Mac, and across remote desktops, widget state awareness, widget transition tracking, side views, parameter preview spectrums for multi-parameter space exploration, prefab implements parameter spectrum preview interfaces for both unmodified Gimp and Photoshop: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lju6IIteg9Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lju6IIteg9Q)

PDF: A General-Purpose Target-Aware Pointing Enhancement Using Pixel-Level Analysis of Graphical Interfaces. Morgan Dixon, James Fogarty, and Jacob O. Wobbrock. (2012). Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. CHI '12\. ACM, New York, NY, 3167-3176. 23%. [https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010941/http://homes.cs.w...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010941/http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mdixon/publications/mdixon- prefab-chi2010-final.pdf)

Video: Content and Hierarchy in Prefab: What if anybody could modify any interface? Reverse engineering guis from their pixels, addresses hierarchy and content, identifying hierarchical tree structure, recognizing text, stencil based tutorials, adaptive gui visualization, ephemeral adaptation technique for arbitrary desktop interfaces, dynamic interface language translation, UI customization, re-rendering widgets, Skype favorite widgets tab: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4S5ZtnaUKE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4S5ZtnaUKE)

PDF: Content and Hierarchy in Pixel-Based Methods for Reverse-Engineering Interface Structure. Morgan Dixon, Daniel Leventhal, and James Fogarty. (2011). Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. CHI '11\. ACM, New York, NY, 969-978. 26%. [https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010931/http://homes.cs.w...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010931/http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mdixon/publications/mdixon- content-hierarchy-chi2011-final.pdf)

Video: Sliding Widgets, States, and Styles in Prefab. Adapting desktop interfaces for touch screen use, with sliding widgets, slow fine tuned pointing with magnification, simulating rollover to reveal tooltips: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LMSYI4i7wk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LMSYI4i7wk)

Video: A General-Purpose Bubble Cursor. A general purpose target aware pointing enhancement, target editor: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46EopD_2K_4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46EopD_2K_4)

PDF: Prefab: Implementing Advanced Behaviors Using Pixel-Based Reverse Engineering of Interface Structure. Morgan Dixon and James Fogarty. (2010). Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. CHI '10\. ACM, New York, NY, 1525-1534. 22% [https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010936/http://homes.cs.w...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150714010936/http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mdixon/publications/mdixon- general-purpose-target-chi2012-final.pdf)

PDF: Prefab: What if Every GUI Were Open-Source? Morgan Dixon and James Fogarty. (2010). Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. CHI '10\. ACM, New York, NY, 851-854. [https://web.archive.org/web/20141024012013/http://homes.cs.w...](https://web.archive.org/web/20141024012013/http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~mdixon/publications/mdixon- prefab-workshop-chi2010-final.pdf)

Morgan Dixon's Research Statement: [http://morgandixon.net/morgan-dixon- research-statement.pdf](http://morgandixon.net/morgan-dixon-research- statement.pdf)

Community-Driven Interface Tools

Today, most interfaces are designed by teams of people who are collocated and highly skilled. Moreover, any changes to an interface are implemented by the original developers and designers who own the source code. In contrast, I envision a future where distributed online communities rapidly construct and improve interfaces. Similar to the Wikipedia editing process, I hope to explore new interface design tools that fully democratize the design of interfaces. Wikipedia provides static content, and so people can collectively author articles using a very basic Wiki editor. However, community-driven interface tools will require a combination of sophisticated programming-by- demonstration techniques, crowdsourcing and social systems, interaction design, software engineering strategies, and interactive machine learning.

<comment><USER13> Small temporary answer while I unwind all the linked content, Dixon's target aware pointing is already missing so much. I wonder how on earth nobody in smartphone land thought to implement something similar. I'm already hooked :)

<comment><USER12> It's missing from many contexts where it would be very useful, including mobile. It's related in many ways to those mobile gui, web browser and desktop app testing harnesses. It could be implemented as a smart scriptable "double buffered" VNC server (for maximum efficiency and native Accessibility API access) or client (for maximum flexibility but less efficient).

The way jQuery widgets can encapsulate native and browser specific widgets with a platform agnostic api, you could develop high level aQuery widgets like "video player" that knew how to control and adapt many different video player apps across different platforms (youtube or vimeo in browser, vlc on windows or mac desktop, quicktime on mac, windows media player on windows, etc). Then you can build much higher level apps out of widgets like that.

Target aware pointing is one of many great techniques he shows can be layered on top of existing interfaces, without modifying them.

I'd like to integrating all those capabilities plus the native Accessibility API of each platform into a JavaScript engine, and write jQuery-like selectors for recognizing patterns of pixels and widgets, creating aQuery widgets that tracked input, drew overlays, implemented text to speech and voice control interfaces, etc.

His research statement sums up where it's leading: Imagine wikipedia for sharing gui mods!

Berkeley Systems (the flying toaster screen saver company) made one of the first screen readers for the Mac in 1989 and Windows in 1994. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OutSpoken](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OutSpoken)

Richard Potter, Ben Shneiderman and Ben Benderson wrote a paper called Pixel Data Access for End-User Programming and graphical Macros, that references a lot of earlier work. [https://www.cs.umd.edu/~ben/papers/Potter1999Pixel.pdf](https://www.cs.umd.edu/~ben/papers/Potter1999Pixel.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Everything was made to be broken. Got this neat effect where the ball was spinning rapidly in the corner of each spawned window! [http://imgur.com/gmwQOCb](http://imgur.com/gmwQOCb)

</comment><comment><USER15> This is one of those awesomely pointless conceptual experiments. Love it.

<comment><USER16> The internet Ig Nobel!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I remember playing with this at least 8 years ago. It's really scary that there's enough information disclosure in browsers that it's possible to do this.

<comment><USER18> > really scary

This is really scary to you? I get that you can do fingerprints, and honestly there's a LOT more than just browser window position/size in them, but "really scary"?

Maybe we need to stop exaggerating on this sort of stuff if we want people to take us seriously.

<comment><USER17> Fine. It's scary that browsers allow for so much fingerprinting. This toy webapp is an example of a larger picture of "things that we really shouldn't allow to happen". So "really scary" was referring to the issue of browser fingerprinting as a whole, not just one toy webapp.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> YouTube Demo: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XmH2QF92Jwo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XmH2QF92Jwo)

<comment><USER20> why so serious?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> they did this with the birds in the wilderness downtown experiment like 5 years ago right? [http://www.thewildernessdowntown.com/](http://www.thewildernessdowntown.com/)

<comment><USER22> I just wanted to try that since it seems interesting. Sadly it tells me to enter the address of the home where I grew up, but then promptly refuses to recognize anything that I put in. It also says I can try schools, but does not recognize any of those either.

Maybe it only recognizes American addresses or something, but I don't know any of those.

edit: Ok I got it working by putting in Amsterdam, which happens to be a city and not an address.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Is the full ball rendered behind an overlapping window? The world may never know.

</comment><comment><USER24> I can't remember the last time I was so happy to have 3 screens

</comment><comment><USER25> Reminds me of the Amiga Boing Ball demo from 1984.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ga41edXw3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ga41edXw3A)

</comment><comment><USER26> Security issues aside, has anyone tackled how to intentionally span multiple monitors using similar techniques? e.g. A dedicated four monitor web-based media dashboard.

</comment><comment><USER27> remembers one project that i did 4 years ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgA5EvOryU0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgA5EvOryU0)</comment>


Maintenance pages problem solved - Trackman offers a free plan - <AUTHOR> http://www.trackman-addon.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Trackman helps you build your maintenance pages within your project and deploys them for you to S3 so you can focus on better stuff.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> <https://addons.heroku.com/catalog/trackman></comment>


Amazon Plans to Roll Out Restaurant Delivery in Cities Across the Country - <AUTHOR> https://recode.net/2015/11/10/amazon-plans-to-roll-out-restaurant-delivery-in-cities-across-the-country/ <comment><AUTHOR> >Amazon faces a crowded field. GrubHub… Seamless… Postmates, DoorDash, Caviar, Sprig, Munchery… UberEats

I actually think this might help Amazon. There are already too many options, and it feels fractured; different cities often have different usage rates of each app. The last thing I want is to have three different apps and wonder which one has the food I want. From the consumer's POV, Amazon is a trusted company that already has my information; if they can get enough penetrance to cover most of my options, I'd ditch the others in a heartbeat.</comment>


Rhextortion: Misinterpretation by Proxy - <AUTHOR> https://areomagazine.com/2018/05/04/rhextortion-misinterpretation-by-proxy/ <comment><USER2> You put a name on what I know since a long time. Thanks for that :)</comment>


Show HN: Exist – understand your life through data - <AUTHOR> https://exist.io/

<comment><USER2> Personally, before I decide to try something like this I would be interested to know how the app collects data from the user. I participated in [https://www.trackyourhappiness.org/](https://www.trackyourhappiness.org/). If you aren't familiar, it surveys you multiple times per day (it was configurable I think). The survey's were short. At first I was happy to do it, but over time the surveys got more and more annoying to the point where I stopped doing them altogether. It got too annoying for me personally before I completed enough surveys for them to compile a full profile for me. Has this app improved upon the data collection process at all?

<comment><AUTHOR> We're over manual tracking too, and trying to remove all that friction. Most of the data we collect is passive - you connect a service via OAuth and never have to think about it again. Just keep using your Fitbit, or last.fm, or making events in your calendar.

The one exception is mood tracking, where you reply to an email every night and manually rate your day.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The service looks interesting and I am always interested in data tracking but having to enter my credit card for the free trial was an instant red flag for me. Why not just make a Lite version with not as many features available to be tracked or make the free trial actually free?

<comment><AUTHOR> Fair point! Because it's just the two of us and we want growth to equal income. We just don't have the resources to support a mountain of free users right now. A free tier will likely come down the track.

For what it's worth, we use Stripe so we don't actually have your credit card details (which is a relief to us too) and we give you ample notice before the trial is up so you can avoid a surprise charge.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> We've been in public beta for a while but have only recently opened free trials. Feedback welcome!</comment>


Savers are slowly choking off the life of the world economy - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/18/savers-slowly-choking-off-life-world-economy <comment><USER2> The headline and first few paragraphs are a disaster, because they set up everyone to get fighty about "savers". On closer inspection:

 _It says institutional investors such as pension funds, insurance companies and mutual funds, along with the sovereign wealth funds of oil-rich nations and central banks, hold around $100 trillion in assets under management.

This huge sum compares to US GDP of around $18 trillion and the total market value of US-listed companies in 2015 of $19 trillion (which today is more like $25 trillion)._

Hyper-concentration of wealth is what's choking off the economy. An economy where most of the returns flow to the 0.01% is unsustainable.

<comment><USER3> technically, saving is saving whether you're rich or poor or whether or not the assets are held by a custodian. the article doesn't make the distinction.

as far as wealth concentration, it certainly _is_ happening. what's scary is: whether or not it's sustainable remains to be seen. what will society look like if it is?

<comment><USER4> It could be sustainable but far from optimal. How long can we live at the edge of dysfunction?

<comment><USER3> Is there anything in my comment that implies I think it would be optimal?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> From the article:

 _Firstly there is the sheer scale of savings held by individuals, companies and governments._

From [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35801951](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35801951):

 _A survey by the Money Advice Service has found that four in 10 adults in the UK do not have £500 or more in savings. Another by ING bank suggests 28% of UK adults have nothing at all in the bank._

Yeah, I'm sure all those hardcore savers in the UK are ruining it for the world's economy.

<comment><USER6> _The unprecedented size of these savings might not matter if investors only wanted a modest return. Unfortunately investors are greedy and there are simply not enough things to invest in that can offer the high returns they demand.

So how do investors react? For decades, they have bullied governments to release assets for sale that can then be leased back at high returns. In the UK, this is why we have privatised utilities and a swath of other safe, previously state-owned, assets in private hands._

It is not morally wrong ("greedy") for investors to seek high returns. If an investment does offer high returns, investors will flock to it, the price will increase, and it will quickly offer average returns, relative to the amount invested.

Nor do investors "demand" high returns - who would they demand them from? - they simply look for the best place to put their money. Investors are not a cartel that lobbies the government. Government services were privatised in the UK for political reasons.

 _Then there is the way most people, businesses and governments have accumulated their savings. Just a quick look at the $100tn total and we can see that most of it is the result of tax avoidance.

The Japanese are famous for their savings and investments. But middle-income families can only save because they don't pay enough tax for officials in Tokyo to provide basic services. Every year the Japanese government runs a 10% budget deficit, such that its accumulated debt is worth almost 250% of GDP._

The author has expanded the meaning of "tax avoidance" to cover cases where he thinks the government should be imposing higher taxes. I agree that governments should run a balanced budget (I would prefer they do so by cutting spending), but the author implies that you could pay all the taxes you owe, and you would still be cheating the system.

<comment><USER2> > Investors are not a cartel that lobbies the government.

Investors _as a class_ most certainly lobby the government.

> Government services were privatised in the UK for political reasons.

.. and this politics does not exist in a vacuum. There is a whole mythology about privatisation that is put forward by opaquely-funded think tanks. It has other functions simply than providing assets - it's also an anti-strike measure and a means of avoiding complaints.

<comment><USER6> Investors aren't a class. "Investors" includes pension funds, university endowments, hedge funds, banks, sovereign wealth funds, individual savers - the only thing these people have in common is they have funds and want to grow them, but they differ completely on risk preference, time preference, amount to invest, etc, etc. I.e., they all pursue their own individual self-interest, not some collective class interest.

Some of these entities fund lobbyists and some don't.

 _mythology_ ... _opaquely-funded think tanks_

I don't know if you are a Marxist, but this is a Marxist way of looking at the world, where each class pursues its collective interest, and funds propaganda to spread a self-justifying mythology.

<comment><USER2> I'm not a Marxist, but I was wondering as I typed that if the class analysis would get pattern-matched that way.

My comment about think tanks was driven by [http://whofundsyou.org/](http://whofundsyou.org/) , really. "Funds propaganda to spread a self-justifying mythology" is definitely something that happens to varying extents by various actors - that's effectively how "super-PACs" work in the US. And privatization has the characteristics of a mythology: it's asserted as a cure-all for problems in public services, and implemented even when extremely unpopular. It relies on creating pseudo-markets, often with only one buyer and tiny number of sellers, and the buyer is not the consumer of the service so the quality gets driven down.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I doff my hat to the Guardian's clickbait team on this one. This is the best I've read in ages. Is it self-parody? Is it bullshit? Does the guy believe this nonsense? I CAN'T TELL. My slack-jawed incomprehension remained firmly in place throughout the entire article, with only my motivation changing. A master craftsman is at work here. <sheds single tear>

(More generally: a few years ago I saw a random comment on somebody's blog suggesting that it was only a matter of time before savers were rebranded as hoarders. So it's interesting to see this perhaps (finally) start to come to pass.)

<comment><USER4> It's not individual savers, but institutional investors that collectively hold ~$100tn, as estimated by the IMF. They're risk-averse, which leads to rent- seeking. That's $100,000,000,000,000. I don't get to write that many zeroes very often.

The article argues that we would all be better off if that money were spent on the common good -- infrastructure, green tech, education, even ag & manufacturing -- rather than being put into buying up what used to be the public sector and putting a price on it without improving it.

Of course, how to make that happen is a _hard question_.

<comment><USER8> Unfortunately, given our current course and heading, the answer to that is as likely to be molotovs and guillotines as it is to be something sensible.

Populism is on the rise, and the demagogues steering it aren't actually going to fix any of the problems that created it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This article is all kinds of wrong. It does not make an appreciable difference between savings, investing, and speculation. There is not a glut in savings but there is a glut in speculation. This is due to a global war on savers. Savers are punished by artificially low interest rates, inflation of money supply, high taxes on earned income, and subsidies to speculators (e.g. various housing subsidies).

<comment><USER4> > artificially low interest rates

I'm pretty sure this is market forces. Glut of savings --> low rates. Sure there are local exceptions and regulatory impacts, but those generally can't stand against the tide, so I'd say it's 95% natural.

> inflation of money supply

Depends on the currency, but in the case of USD, increasing the supply is necessary to avoid deflation, which would seem superficially good for savers, but would be disastrous for economic productivity.

> high taxes on earned income

???

> subsidies to speculators (housing subsidies)

I don't know much about this one, but I think most subsidies are homestead-y (to owner-occupiers and first-time buyers).

<comment><USER9> Not market forces, see reserve bank interventions. Deflation is not disastrous for economic productivity but it is a side effect of economic productivity. Taxes on earned income vs capital is a regressive tax system on the working class and a subsidy to the upper class. Owner-occupiers and first-time buyer subsidies are subsidies to the speculators. Increase in house prices happen the moment such policies are implemented to capture the entire benefit. The policies are only implemented after speculators have invested and drive up housing prices. This only benefits speculators (who can also be first-time buyers).

<comment><USER4> I should have read the article before replying!

Indeed, the article seems blind to capital taxes, focusing instead on income tax. Wealth tax is a pretty alien concept in the US -- I think it would face strong cultural resistance, and cause even more wealth flight to tax havens. And yet, I can see how it would tackle a big part of the problems described here.

It may need to be implemented in a coordinated global fashion to avoid cheating. You'd need the rich nations to do it, with a working enforcement mechanism that spans international borders. That, combined with cultural resistance, sounds hard.

<comment><USER9> No need for a global system in taxes to reduce wealth disparity. Just need to stop subsidising speculation. Due to agency costs (information asymmetry etc.) it's harder to make large returns on large amounts so the wealth levels off. The problem with a global system in taxes is that the taxes will just be used to subsidise more speculation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Well that's brilliant ... take a wise behavior that far too few people do, and blame it for the world's problems.

Our rulers know that if we don't save any money, we'll be more vulnerable and dependent ... plus, it's too hard to tax saved money, whereas it's trivial to tax money that's moving.

<comment><USER9> Next thing they'll be blaming AI and robots on destroying the world economy and not the bankers.

<comment><USER8> In an economic system which requires either gainful employment, or humiliation, poverty, and destitution from its people, AI and robots are indeed destroying the economy.

America produces more then it ever did, yet manufacturing is considered dead as a source of jobs.

The small number of well-paid engineering jobs AI and robots create is dwarfed by those losses.

<comment><USER9> It only destroys imagined wealth and not actual wealth (more useful stuff is created). In the current system the new wealth creation is skewed to the already wealthy, hence why the majority will see a decline in living standard and the feeling of the destruction of the economy. However wealth disparities takes money to maintain, and it is inefficient. It requires taxpayer subsidies to be maintained. If the wealthy had to pay the unsubsidized cost of the police, legal system, and foreign wars to protect their investments they would stop being wealthy very quickly. So it's not AI or robots that will destroy the economy it's high income taxes and low capital taxes.

<comment><USER8> > If the wealthy had to pay the unsubsidized cost of the police, legal system, > and foreign wars to protect their investments they would stop being wealthy > very quickly.

That will depend on how effectively we can replace those systems with AI and robots. We're on our way there with the legal system.

<comment><USER9> In order to maintain an ever increasing wealth disparity society will have to become more fascist and taxes more confiscatory. To prevent this you simply need to fight fascism in all its forms (including socialism and political correctness). This is guaranteed to happen eventually as fascist states are inherently unstable.

<comment><USER8> Oh, we definitely need to fight political correctness.

Your god-given right to be a rude motherfucker to whomever you feel like, whenever you feel like, without being subjected to any social censure, must be defended. I just don't understand why we can't call a _______ a _______ in polite company anymore.

<comment><USER9> As long as the methods used to uphold political correctness does not use state or taxpayers subsidised institutions then it's ok. That's just normal society organization with freedom of association. If you need to use the state to enforce beliefs on others, that is where it becomes fascist.

Socialism is "fascism with a human face", the "The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists." - Winston Churchill.

<comment><USER8> Winston Churchill is also famous for gems like:

"I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."

"[Ghandi] ought to be lain bound hand and foot at the gates of Delhi, and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new Viceroy seated on its back."

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

If he wanted to find fascism, all he needed to do was look to his treatment of the imperial holdings - something that British socialists were quite eager to point out.

If you torture the definition of fascism so far as to include social democracy, then it will also encompass America since the arrival of settlers, centuries of monarchical and parliamentarian Europe...

<comment><USER9> The quote is one I agree with and I thought I should give its origin. I do not agree with everything Winston Churchill has said or done, and I probably disagree with him more than most (even of those on the left).

But perhaps some context is in order.

At that time India was pretty terrible. E.g. burning at the stake of widows after their husbands died. Even Marx found that the British occupation was a civilizing force. It could be argued that the occupation in its totality and for all of it's faults was a net positive.

Obvious fascism is obvious. Which is why George Orwell's books are dedicated to the less obvious fascisms. And it's why I made the point on political correctness, because it's less obvious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It is the herd behavior of the banks. Before the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy everyone got a credit, no questions asked.

Now, when the banks are _supposed_ to give out more credits (which is why the interest rates are so low in the first place), the current herd behavior is to refuse anyone but clients who don't need any credit to begin with.

I wonder if it is time that the central banks lend directly to private individuals. Scoring and credit rating is largely done by computers anyway, at least for the typical amounts that private individuals need.

No reason to have a middle man who does not meet his traditional obligations.

</comment><comment><USER12> Varoufakis calls this problem the "twin peaks paradox" in his TED talk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB4s5b9NL3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB4s5b9NL3I) (specifically 2 minutes in)

<comment><USER4> From the video:

> One peak is the mountain of debt ... that is casting its shadow over the > whole world ... We all recognize the mountain of debt.

> But few people recognize its twin: A mountain of idle cash, belonging to > rich savers and corporations, too terrified to invest it into the productive > activities that can generate the incomes from which you can extinguish the > mountain of debt, and which can produce all those things that humanity > desperately needs, like green energy ...

> Now, let me give you two numbers ...

<comment><USER13> >> Now, let me give you two numbers ...

Mark Blyth recently mentioned[1] two numbers that are particularly effective at explaining where money is being "saved".

> In 2015, Wall St. bonuses - _not_ regular compensation, _bonuses_ \- seven > years after they were bailed out with the public purse totaled $28.4 > billion. Total compensation paid to every single person in this country who > earns minimum wage: $14 billion.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMmBG3Z4DI#t=1104](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMmBG3Z4DI#t=1104)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This article is overblown, but the demographic changes in the West are heavily impacting economic growth. It isn't so much to do with saving as to do with the Boomers getting older. The Baby Boomers are retiring and their spending patterns are changing. No new cars, downsizing in property, and less expense on child rearing. At the same time there is a fertility crisis among the young, meaning we will not see another Baby Boom anytime soon. These changes are as big a reason for low growth as the rise of automation, debt levels, and deleveraging.

</comment><comment><USER15> Savers? What savers? No one is saving. Americans are drowning in debt. How many studies have been done showing the average American is living Paycheck to paycheck and couldn't sustain losing their job or a medical emergency? Even those wishing to save can never ever make money chasing 0% interest or even worse negative interest in almost all financial vehicles.

Savings? That is a complete and total joke. The average American is being snuffed out and reduced to a wage slave.

</comment><comment><USER16> The "savers" in the OP are not individual citizens domestic savings but money that would be used for speculating with investment.

With record low interest rates, any project that gives an ROI worth gambling on is worth borrowing for.

</comment><comment><USER17> I think there are some legitimate concerns in here about privatization ,large investors and questionable practices which is being confused with ordinary savers.

</comment><comment><USER18> What a load of scaremongering bollocks.</comment>


Silverlight Has the Exact Same Vulnerability That WebGL Does - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/hack/2011/06/developer-silverlight-has-the.php

<comment><USER2> Beyond the self-serving statements that most everyone involved in this story are making, there's a real issue here. That Silverlight has (or had) vulnerabilities of the sort that make Microsoft hesitant to implement WebGL is ironic, but it's also interesting because it shows that they've got a point that such vulnerabilities can be a problem.

This storyline, like so many others, serves as an occasion for people to line up with one team or another and make whatever arguments support Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, or whoever they're rooting for.

But obscured behind all that smoke is a subtle, nuanced conversation to be had about the problem itself: What are the essential performance vs security tradeoffs? What can be done about them? And then there are larger issues, like this: A curated app store model where code is vetted and apps are run in a sandbox might significantly reduce users' vulnerability to attacks like this, but at what cost, both to users, developers, and those running the app store?

<comment><USER3> The other story is to what extent is a private company obligated to implement a feature pushed by its competitors? This is often done in the name of it being a "standard", but C# is standardized too.

Furthermore, these standards often haven't been well vetted. As I noted before C++ ran into this problem with export. It caused no end of headaches and wasted time. It was eventually effectively dropped (although EDG did appear to get a decent implementation in-place finally).

At the end of the day each vendor should feel they have the _freedom_ to implement what they deem as important. Other vendors should respect it. Whether its Apple not supporting Flash (not a standard, but hugely popular) or MS not supporting WebGl (a draft, but not widely used).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> In some ways, WebGL reminds me of OpenDoc - a consortium of competitors offering the mashup model as an alternative to OS implementation while ignoring salient performance issues. In no small part because the proposal breaks the architecture of Microsoft's implementation and is coupled with a PR campaign to negate the implementation advantage Microsoft has based on the nature of their product portfolio and market segments, i.e. as an OS provider.

This isn't to say that Silverlight is the solution - but rather that the idea of giving browsers a generic ability to bypass the operating system and access the hardware is different from how Silverlight is implemented in the vast majority of cases. The Silverlight implementation is provided by the OS vendor not a third party.

It's not that WebGL doesn't have a reasonable goal, but design a sandbox without a lid and you wind up with cat turds. A system which depends on the priority which the authors of graphic card drivers assign to security and mass market hardware vendors assign to driver updates and continued support within the consumer segment doesn't seem like a plan consistent with the potential for mischief the web offers.

[<http://gregmaletic.wordpress.com/2006/11/12/opendoc/>]

[<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opendoc>]

</comment><comment><USER5> That's incorrect. Microsoft, I believe, is only allowing low level access via drivers that have been checked for safety, and most random drivers from vendors are NOT allowed such access (even those that pass the normal driver certification).

The article from the Google guy a few days ago said their approach is that they an include in WebGL workarounds for all the buggy drivers. That approach has no chance of working.

</comment><comment><USER6> shocking. microsoft caught lying because of business/vendorlockin reasons.</comment>


Is The Adult Industry A Place For Young Tech Entrepreneurs To Make Money? - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasperhamill/2014/07/31/meet-the-young-entrepreneur-aiming-to-be-the-steve-jobs-of-porn/

<comment><USER2> lame paid advertising.

but they, it worked for that silly kid selling a rss aggregator like it was sliced bread, as he managed to bait yahoo into buying his shenanigans.</comment>


Learning to Think Like a Computer - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/04/education/edlife/teaching-students-computer-code.html <comment><USER2> > At Stanford, Princeton and Tufts, computer science is now the most popular > major.

In my times, comp-sci was only studied by geeks and wierdos. Glad that the steriotypes have changed and it became more popular</comment>


Show HN: Revisit Your First GitHub Commit Ever - <AUTHOR> http://www.amitmerchant.com/your-first-commit-ever/ <comment><USER2> cool! i had a nostalgia moment viewing my first commit</comment>


Lieberman Introduces Anti-WikiLeaks Legislation - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/shield/

<comment><USER2> This pos is such a douchebag.

Hey Joe, what about the Plame leak?</comment>


Stakato Developer Preview - Python and Perl Enterprise Cloud Platform - <AUTHOR> http://www.activestate.com/cloud

<comment><USER2> There are lots of things going on for Perl right now on the deployment/cloud front. DotCloud, Phenona, now Stakato. This, coupled with web frameworks like Mojolicious and Dancer, make me very happy and optimistic that Perl is entering a new phase, fixing any publicity issues it had. A renaissance of sorts if you will.

<comment><USER3> Phenona was over subscribed so I'm still waiting for my private beta invite :(

So may give DotCloud or Stackato a go soon. _Apparently_ Perl deployments have already passed NodeJS on DotCloud! <http://twitter.com/#!/dot_cloud/status/66208136494718976>

<comment><USER4> DotCloud invites! <http://www.dotcloud.com/account/create>

      N3NXV3    58XQdf
      CZd8sG    X0dhMQ
      pAfd02    tOcRu3
      GqlleD    u2uDPS
      BO6ERv    q8oPfA
      QMIbir    KH9MrV
      HWPVxK    FdVr9f
      5cQ71E    iPbONc
      lBGEOj    4ntXxi
      1P9P87    8B3brx
      2suhD8    ErhGBl

<comment><USER3> Thank you very much for the invite code(s).

I couldn't resist and look forward to testing it out further tomorrow!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> it's "Stackato" with a "c" ;-) #stackato #cfoundry</comment>


Build a 300-Mile Wall Around SF During Burning Man - <AUTHOR> http://megagogo.co/ <comment><USER2> This is not an effective Kickstarter parody because the financial goal is actually somewhat reasonable.

<comment><USER3> Are you saying that we should do it?

<comment><USER4> Are you saying that we shouldn't?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wait, this is just the Maginot line all over again.

Surely they'll come back through Medford, go down through Crescent City where they will ferry out from Mendocino in elaborately colorful barges with high artistic merit, only then to dock back into the bay and storm the city with their DJ tanks once again.

Have we learned nothing from WW2 and the battles of ancient Greece?

</comment><comment><USER6> Another option: build the wall around Burning Man after it's started.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'd rather build a wall around San Francisco _before_ Burning Man so that us folks between SF and Black Rock don't get flooded with San Franciscans.

</comment><comment><USER8> The "quarter mile stretch of wall all to your own" reward already has over 16k backers. How are they planning to deliver when the wall is only 300 miles?

<comment><USER4> Obviously they'll just have to build multiple concentric walls. This will also sap the morale of any burners who are ambitious enough to climb over the outer one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> The tunnel under the midwest project reminded me of the SF to NY burrito delivery project: The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel.

[http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda- weehawken_burrito_t...](http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda- weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm)

</comment><comment><USER6> After this one is successfully funded and completed, may I suggest building a wall around Austin during the next SXSW?

</comment><comment><USER10> One of the few parodies that actually made me laugh IRL.

I wonder if almost $2M raised are also a parody.

<comment><USER11> It's two billion, but yes, it's a parody. First this is literally the only thing on the site. There are some others at the bottom but if you try to click on them or really almost anything else it says:

The volume of pledges has overwhelmed our system and we're unable to process your pledge at this time. We're attempting to fix the problem as quickly as possible but half our developers have taken advantage of our unlimited vacation policy to finish their LED mindfulness art car.

In the meantime, please share your support of this campaign with your community to help them reach their goal. Namaste.

Edit:

And if you are for some reason interested here is the code they are using to generate the number of donations/the amount. The number of donations is just the number of seconds since July 29th and the donation amount is just 2926 times that. It updates every random amount of time

Edit:

Sorry new here. Can't get it to take javascript. I guess they're worried about code injection.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> If this doesn't get funded, perhaps we can start a "Burn SF to the ground. Again." campaign.

</comment><comment><USER13> Just have Cthulhu destroy it, followed by San Francisco itself.</comment>


Ask HN: Selling intangible goods (website) using Escrow, is it safe? - <AUTHOR>

I'm about to sell a website on Flippa and the buyer wants to use Escrow. I have no experience with this payment service, can anyone advise if it's safe to use for intangible/digital goods? <comment><USER2> Escrow, along with a good contract, is a great way to transfer a website. The buyer has to send the money to the escrow service. You know that they have the money to buy your site, and that it's been transferred to the escrow service, before you have to turn over the website. You transfer the domain to the buyer, then they allow the escrow service to transfer the funds to you.

The reason this protects you is that if the buyer tries to back out, the escrow service still has the money. You can provide proof that you transferred the website and they can release the funds to you.

The reason this protects the buyer is that you don't get access to his money until you've transferred the website to him.

<comment><USER3> _the escrow service still has the money. You can provide proof that you transferred the website and they can release the funds to you._

Providing that it's a real escrow service, yes. But be careful, since "fake escrow service" is a common scam.

<comment><AUTHOR> Escrow.com, I assume their service is okay?

<comment><USER4> Is anyone able to provide the names/urls of a few reputable escrow services? We should direct people to known companies rather than setting people the near impossible task of assessing whether or not an escrow service suggested by the other side is legitimate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> its most probably a scammer

<comment><USER4> Can you elaborate on why you say that? Just so we can all learn something :)

<comment><USER3> There have been a lot of scams involving using an "escrow" service which is really just the scammer in disguise.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How can I combine photos from 2 cameras? - <AUTHOR> As the title asks: I want to join photos from two cameras. Cameras are fixed. <comment><USER2> Are you looking for image stitching, something like this? [http://ramsrigoutham.com/2012/11/22/panorama-image- stitching...](http://ramsrigoutham.com/2012/11/22/panorama-image-stitching-in- opencv/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes! Exactly. What is the best way to transfer the image to the computer and to this program? Can the camera transfer the photos to the computer automatically. I'm thinking more like simple web cameras maybe not expensive SLRs. Thanks.

<comment><USER2> USB Web camera should do. another link to it [http://henryhermawan.blogspot.de/2007/09/capturing-frames- fr...](http://henryhermawan.blogspot.de/2007/09/capturing-frames-from-usb- camera-using.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Looks good.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> What do you mean by "join"? making a "panorama", or something else?

<comment><AUTHOR> No. Two cameras will be on a line and fixed. They will be triggered at the same time. There will be overlap. So is it possible to take the images from both cameras and superimpose them to create one image?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Could you use a wireless eyefi SD card in each camera? The cameras could remain fixed but then you can access the photos on the cards automatically.</comment>


Show HN: Dubjoy makes it easy to voice translate any video - <AUTHOR> http://dubjoy.com/demo <comment><USER2> This is one of those projects that looks like with just the right combination it'll take off. I can see Chinese people especially translating a huge deal of dramas, technical articles, news(!), etc. Subtitling would probably be a great feature as well, and seems like it'd fit in well with the exact same interface.

Really impressive execution - what're the long term goals for Dubjoy?

<comment><AUTHOR> We're thinking subtitling might help with dubbing efforts but we won't go in subtitles direction for now. Amara has this field covered really good.

Long term goal is to become a YouTube for non English speaking users :)

<comment><USER3> That's completely wrong direction IMO, and there's no market called 'Youtube for non-English users'. You should implement a HTML5 overlay so users could enable dubs on any existing Youtube video. The page with embedded videos would just include dubjoy.js or user could use a browser extension to enable dubs on Youtube itself. Then list all already dubbed videos on your website.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've tried using your app in Chromium (on Ubuntu 12.10), but the the flash permission doesn't show up (<http://imgur.com/VD25h>). It seems to be working in Google Chrome, though.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's been a rough ride for us regarding browser compatibility. In the beginning we wanted to support them all, but then quickly boiled it down to just Chrome. It's a really good browser for prototyping. At first we wanted to use native controls for audio recording, but quickly realized that it won't go, because it's still very beta. We decided to use Flash for voice recording, but a week ago Google surprised us with a broken release. We're sure they'll fix it soon. In the future we'll be more careful and will consider Firefox and others also.

<comment><USER5> Sad thing one that google part, but I hope you'll be able to move away from flash soon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This thing is amazing. Helping ordanary people spread good video content to a wider audience is great, and just think of all the Ted talks that could be dubbed like this. Sadly I know planty of people who just don't get to enjoy all the stuff out there because the language barrier.

ps: listening to Jobs in german made me giggle.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> We didn't say anything about technology stack: we host on Heroku using Sinatra and Ruby, Backbone.js, HAML,CoffeScript is used for frontend, the awesome Firebase for real-time communication with backend workers, which run on AWS/written in Python using Sox.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't understand how Google can push out a broken version of Chrome for voice recording. All the services that use voice recording are broken now.

<comment><USER7> It seems it "slipped" through the cracks, although it was discovered before they released version 23 for Mac.

They are working on a fix, but in the meantime, lots of people are inconvenienced using tools dealing with mic access.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I like the idea. it has the potential of making a change and enabling people to do new things.

</comment><comment><USER9> Seen this when it was still very rough. Huge progress so far. Keep it up.

</comment><comment><USER10> Could be pretty useful for some projects I am working on.

</comment><comment><USER11> Tried it and I love it.. So simple..</comment>


Show HN: Weight Lifting Algorithm Based on 5M Workouts - <AUTHOR> https://www.getfitnessai.com/ <comment><USER2> Not a fan of the predatory "Sign up for a 7 day free trial, and if you forget to cancel we'll bill you $60 for the year membership" system. It's also a week trial, but the AI takes 8 workouts to learn -- not great for a comprehensive demo at all.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry! message me in app I'll give you a free month

(stands for anyone from HN)

<comment><USER3> Ok cool but... Why not just not do that? Is the one month of revenue from people who forget to cancel, then cancel and are pissed about it, Worth it?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not really — since I'm spending money on ads on day 1 I need to make the money back ASAP to reinvest in ads.

Since traffic from HN is essentially free I have no problem with an extended trial period :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry! I'm trying to keep up with all the comments and have been responding hastily.

It's fair game in my book to use the tools Apple provides us as developers to monetize our apps. Other apps offering subscriptions do so in the same way... it's why Apple provides us the ability to even offer free trials.

I'm sorry you disagree, but this is common business practice.

<comment><USER4> I will be the first to admit that I am not a businessperson, but I would predict you're not going to make many friends here standing on "the rules allow us to do this" and "everybody else does it". That's the weakest possible defense, and shows you're not really hearing _why_ people "are pissed about it".

<comment><USER5> At least he is answering honestly. And everyone seems to dislike honest answers. Looks like people only want to hear some lies wrapped in nice promises, which would never materialize.

edit: typo

<comment><USER3> Sure, honesty is a good value, which is why it's disappointing to hear that they'll be honest to us about their dishonesty to their customers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Jakemor, I noticed you haven't responded to anybody asking you more than a generic question about your methodology.

Here's what it looks like you did;

Made a weight lifting logging app and charged a monthly subscription for it.

Used your users data to create an algorithm that culled the routine of your best performers, most likely defined by heaviest weight lifted.

Claimed that by following your algorithm your users could 2x the results of trainers; trainers here is defined as "people who train," And not "people who are paid to train others."

Cited 60 days as a window of success.

All of this, if it is as it appears, is massively misleading in an industry already known for snake oil.

Have you compensated for your users that had big numbers but approached it in an unhealthy way? For instance, how many of your user's deadlift high numbers resulted in a hernias?

Additionally you say you have engineers and scientists working on hacking human performance. What about strength and conditioning coaches? What about athletes?

<comment><USER7> >> Additionally you say you have engineers and scientists working on hacking human performance.

In this post, he says he's a 1 man shop.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19635573](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19635573)

<comment><AUTHOR> I said I'm looking to hire scientists and engineers

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You want my phone number AND "This app does use third party services that may collect information used to identify you."

I'm not so comfortable with that. Can you tell us more?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey! We use the Facebook SDK & AppsFlyer to help optimize + attribute marketing campaigns. Also use Intercom for customer support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> There seems to be a lot of shade here and I wanted to offer a different perspective. I've strength training for over 10 years and aside from the basics like nutrition, rest, form, etc... one of the most valuable tools I use are progression spreadsheets like this one: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VYNuMhonQw1SOKO_7IbG...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VYNuMhonQw1SOKO_7IbGubON1KxCgCUVxRtef0gQgCM/edit)

The main value is that it not only tells you what exercises to do, but also how much _more_ to lift each day to ensure steady growth. They are designed by well-informed people with a lot of experience in the field. However, there are some major flaws (e.g Most are just linear increases, they don't handle plateaus/failures well, they aren't personalized, exercises don't change, and the UI is pretty bad).

There's a lot of potential in something like fitnessai to address these issues. Obviously, it's not going to do everything for you and won't replace your own research and experimentation, but I can see it being super valuable as a tool in the gym.

@jakemor the app looks dope. Listen to your customers and keep building it out. The majority of HN may not your ideal customer but don't let that deter you.

</comment><comment><USER10> > FitnessAI is so simple your grandma can use it.

This is a terrible cliche. (More: [https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_c...](https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/So_simple,_your_mother_could_do_it))

How about something like:

* Your lifts should be hard, your tracking should be effortless. Record your set with a single tap and spend your rest recovering for the next (...or taking selfies, we don't judge).

This tells people exactly what the value is and tells the that the user that they deserve FitnessAI.

<comment><AUTHOR> When you're right, you're right! Thanks for the rec. I've updated the site :)

<comment><USER11> Good call for both of you. I'd be afraid to insult this grandma's intelligence when it comes to working out: [https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/72-year-old- woman-...](https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/72-year-old-woman-has- amazing-workout-routine/325202101435740/)

PS: Sorry for Facebook and sorry for really awful music. Hit mute first.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Fellow hackers,

After collecting an insane amount of data with my app Lift Log, I decided to design an algorithm that optimizes for accelerated muscle growth over a short period of time.

It currently outperform human trainers by 1-2x in the first 60 days of training, using a very simple algorithm. The opportunity to change how people, athletes, and soldiers train is huge.

We're cashflow positive, raised a small seed, and are hiring data scientists & engineers in NYC to hack the human body for efficiency.

Hope to answer any questions you may have!

<comment><USER6> I'm all here for better lifting apps, but I have lots of questions.

How do you qualify the "trainers," that your algorithm outperformed? Most basic strength and conditioning books will outperform the average chain gym trainer.

How many of your the trainers in your sample size were Strength and Conditioning Coaches at reputable performance gyms? Would any qualify under the following statement from the National Strength and Conditioning Association's Website:

"The proper education consists of an undergraduate degree in an exercise science-related field. Such a degree is imperative because it forms the foundation of knowledge that underpins the profession. An exercise science- related degree affords the capability to practice an evidence-based approach to strength and conditioning."

What are your results for longer than 60 days? Do you continue to outperform human trainers at the 1 yr and 5 yr marks? For those that are uninitiated, 60 days is a incredibly short time in the world of Strength and Conditioning. Doing almost anything differently that your normal routine, consistently, over 3 months will yield positive results before plateaus set in.

How are you quantifying your results?

Are you raising the 1 rep maxes of your athletes 1-2x than more than Human Trainer? Their 10 rep max? Their max broad jump? Their 40 yard dash? Their 1 mile time? Their muscle mass? Lowering their Body fat percentage?

I want this to work. I crave a simple logging app that will allow me to enter a variety of exercises and an AI that would help with programming would be huge. I would be willing to you pay your subscription of $8 a month if it were true.

<comment><AUTHOR> >> How do you qualify the "trainers," that your algorithm outperformed? Most basic strength and conditioning books will outperform the average chain gym trainer.

Trainers use Lift Log to keep track of their clients workouts during training sessions. They were identified and their data was compared

>> How many of your the trainers in your sample size were Strength and Conditioning Coaches at reputable performance gyms? Would any qualify under the following statement from the National Strength and Conditioning Association's Website:

"The proper education consists of an undergraduate degree in an exercise science-related field. Such a degree is imperative because it forms the foundation of knowledge that underpins the profession. An exercise science- related degree affords the capability to practice an evidence-based approach to strength and conditioning."

Not sure! but they worked at or owned their own gyms so I'm sure they are certified. Only trainers who trained using the same exercises as FitnessAI were compared

>> What are your results for longer than 60 days? Do you continue to outperform human trainers at the 1 yr and 5 yr marks? For those that are uninitiated, 60 days is a incredibly short time in the world of Strength and Conditioning. Doing almost anything differently that your normal routine, consistently, over 3 months will yield positive results before plateaus set in.

I'm not sure! We've only been around for a few months so it's hard to say. That said, we have the data and users to optimize for this once users begin to plateau

>> How are you quantifying your results? Are you raising the 1 rep maxes of your athletes 1-2x than more than Human Trainer? Their 10 rep max? Their max broad jump? Their 40 yard dash? Their 1 mile time? Their muscle mass? Lowering their Body fat percentage?

% change in total volume lifter

>> I want this to work. I crave a simple logging app that will allow me to enter a variety of exercises and an AI that would help with programming would be huge. I would be willing to you pay your subscription of $8 a month if it were true.

try it out! And message me in app for a free 30 days

<comment><USER6> No thank you. You have not qualified your trainers as anybody other than "but they worked at or owned their own gyms so I'm sure they are certified." That is naive or willingly ignorant. Spending time any time in a chain gym and interacting with the hired trainers would illustrate that.

Your methodology doesn't disqualify anybody who could have started with incredible small lifts and then added higher lifts at the end of 60 days. That would not reflect actual development.

Most importantly, I am aware of how to do steady slate programming, which seems to be what your App is selling. I have access to spreadsheets and the ability to program by percentages, as do most people.

Your app would be 100x better if I simply were able to input my One Rep Maxes and then have it spit out a 3 month plan of 5x5 training starting around 70% of my max increasing my loads by 5% a week, with a deload week every 4-6 weeks. Perhaps adding in weeks with 3x5, and 3x3 as it gets near max. However, as you likely know, no one is going to pay monthly for that.

Instead, you have packaged common knowledge as AI. You have taken data from users (that you charged a monthly subscription) that are not qualified to give educated information, failed to qualify which of them were experts, and are attempting to pass it off as some sort of hive learning. For that you want $8 a month (AND their data, to be used for who knows what in the future) from people who are looking to better themselves.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry you disagree mate!

There are thousands happy users who are seeing real results, I don't know what else to say.

Please don't forget that the average user doesn't know how to lift weights, and doesn't want to pay $50-150/training session. FitnessAI offers a real alternative.

>> Your app would be 100x better if I simply were able to input my One Rep Maxes and then have it spit out a 3 month plan of 5x5 training starting around 70% of my max increasing my loads by 5% a week, with a deload week every 4-6 weeks. Perhaps adding in weeks with 3x5, and 3x3 as it gets near max. However, as you likely know, no one is going to pay monthly for that.

FitnessAI basically does a variation of this, but it's informed by data rather than being anecdotal

<comment><USER6> Man you just do not get it. a 5x5 or 3x5 plan is not anecdotal. It's based on empirical evidence, pioneered in most part by the Russians in the 70s, with knowledge existing for decades, if not centuries prior.

Your app does not invent a new way to program working out. Your app reflects proof that science we already know about has results that have already been proven to be true. And you charge people monthly for this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry again Stunting, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Good luck in your fitness endeavors :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm not entirely sold.

Fitness magazines assert they can get me bigger, faster in every month's issue. It's a big industry.

Perhaps you can post a bit more on the Blog to establish credibility.

<comment><AUTHOR> Message me I'll give you a free month :)

Working on blog posts too

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> is there ANY science behind this? did you take into account weight, height, weather, diet, mood, sleep time, gender, prior experience, age, stress levels, drug consumption, proteins... I could go on..

<comment><USER14> Also, how big is the improvement? If it's only 1-10% better than doing a random program, then perhaps it's not really worth the trouble. However, if it's 25+ percent more effective, then we're talking.

(Of course, for professional bodybuilders the decision may be at a different point)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I came to the comments expecting a lot skeptics and was nos let down. Guys give this a try, I fit the usual software engineer physical stereotype and would like to gain some muscle but I don't invest that much on PT as i should.

IMO, Give this a try jakemor said in the comments he'll give a free month to anyone on HN

<comment><USER6> Hey bud. Instead of sending $8 a month to have information that is already accessible to you regurgitated to you with pretty UI try this instead...

Do you walk? If you don't, start there.

A study of sedentary, overweight men and women (aged 40 to 65 years) showed they lost body fat and weight when they walked or ran 12 miles a week during an 8-month study, without changing their diet. A control group of non- exercisers all gained weight and fat during the 8-month study."

[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/216495)

Do you sit at a desk a lot? You probably have poor posture associated with it. Do any yoga, at all. Literally any program.

Here's one from my favorite online yogi - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUf7aajBWE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAUf7aajBWE)

Do you want to lift weights? For $8, one time, you can order Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. \- [https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell- Train...](https://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-Basic-Barbell- Training/dp/0982522738)

This book will teach you how to lift the weights, as well as how to program the lifts, which is twice as much as this app is claiming to do. At 1/12th the price for the first year, 1/24th the second, and 1/36th the third, etc..

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Seems odd that they are only supporting IOS. Additionally, who knows if they got it right without supplying any supplementary documentation...

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry! I'm a 1 man show and iOS is my specialty

<comment><USER16> well that explains it! looks like a cool project!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> In various places on the webpage, it brags about the design, and how you can do things with "only a few taps". That'd be great, but the first screenshot shows how I have to "Speak to FitnessAI". Do I really have to have an ELIZA- style chat, and spell out the muscle groups I want to work out today? This just looks lazy. A pseudo-English command line is a terrible design for this.

You have the official "Download on the App Store" badge, but it links to a web form that requests my phone number. That's not an acceptable use of Apple's badge, according to their rules on the webpage you downloaded it from.

Using algorithms to optimize my workouts sounds like a good idea in principle, but I see no proof that it works as advertised, and everything else about this app is mildly distasteful.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're only hit with the chat during sign up, after that it's optional. Beginners like the feature.

The download badge links directly to the App Store on iOS; on desktop it lets you send yourself a text with the download link, which is standard behavior for Branch links. Alternatively you can just search FitnessAI in the App Store

I'd suggest giving it a shot before drawing any conclusions. Message me for a free 30 days :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Even for a single exercise, there are a lot of different variables: weight, number of sets, number of reps, recovery time between sets, recovery time between workouts, etc. Were all of these variables adjusted and taken into account or were some of them held constant?

<comment><AUTHOR> Weight, number of sets, reps and recovery time were all taken into account, although they weren't necessarily constant.

You can devise a relationship between someone's 1 rep - 12 rep max and adjust for it, check out epleys formula [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One- repetition_maximum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Their blog post says not to rest for more than 90 seconds between sets. I can see why the app would work better with tight groupings but 90s is not enough max gains and recovery, especially for beginners.

<comment><USER19> Beginners in the first month or two are mostly just learning the motions. 90s rest is fine. Once you're a few months in, and you've progressed all the weights significantly from your untrained starting point, then 90s seems like a crazy short amount of time.

<comment><USER18> "The men who took longer rest periods experienced a 152% increase in MPS in the early part of recovery compared to the men who took short-rest intervals who only saw a 76% increase. That's a two-fold difference."

[https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/perfect-amount- re...](https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/perfect-amount-rest-between- lifting-sets-maximize-muscle/)

Why would you deprive a beginner of these benefits?

<comment><USER19> One study. 1 minute vs 5 minute rest periods. One dimension of the study (MPS), over 28 hours post exercise. No idea if this is relevant after the first workout, or the second, or the first week. This is pop science. The actual study might be fine, but the extrapolation out to practical applications is pretty silly at this point.

So, I would deprive them of these benefits because I suspect that they are mild to irrelevant, and because an adult male benching 75lbs 15 times is likely to be bored out of their mind resting 10 minutes between those three sets (for example), for what is probably a trivial-or-non-existent 'edge'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I think this will not work unless things like individual training experience, proper form execution and diet are taken into account.

I also think that people are pretty stupid and you will earn a lot of money from it.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'm wondering if there's a parallel for nutrition. I'm a pretty poor eater, as it stands.

</comment><comment><USER22> This seems targeted at bodybuilding (at least the landing page screenshots are). If this really works, it would be interesting to see how the algorithm fares in competitive sports like olympic weightlifting and triathlon.

</comment><comment><USER23> I see you have a post-set rating for difficulty but "reps in reserve" is also a common assessment - any plans to add it?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes in due time!

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> my 2c: The default value for "weight" in onboarding seems to be 120kg. I'm pretty sure you can set it to 75kg[1] to avoid a lot of scrolling in the onboarding.

However good job !

[1] average: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!!!

It's actually set to 120 for both kg and lbs — my bad!

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Android version? I'd love to use this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Top priority — if rev stays steady and we can afford it absolutely!

<comment><USER26> Also an android user, also interested :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> This is complete snake oil.

</comment><comment><USER28> How did you get 6,000,000 workout datasets from 30,000 people?

<comment><AUTHOR> A previous app I made called Lift Log for iOS that has been around for 3 years now

<comment><USER29> Are you giving those users free access to this service, since you are profiting off their data?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> will someone provide link to app? It's really bad to collect the phone no instead you can ask for emails.

<comment><AUTHOR> Here you go! If you visit the site on mobile it links directly. [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fitness-ai-weight-lifting- pl...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/fitness-ai-weight-lifting- plan/id1446224156?mt=8)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Uh. too bad I don't own a phone

</comment><comment><USER32> Awesome! Where's the source code?</comment>