Hack the derivative - <AUTHOR> https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/four/hack-the-derivative/ <comment><USER2> Yay for functions which are analytic in some neighborhood. Here's the original paper from the 60s about the idea in this post: [http://www.math.fsu.edu/~okhanmoh/media/Lyness,%20Moler,%20S...](http://www.math.fsu.edu/~okhanmoh/media/Lyness,%20Moler,%20SJNA,%201967,%20Numerical%20differentiation%20of%20analytic%20functions.pdf)

The latest work on this general topic is [http://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.2463.pdf](http://arxiv.org/pdf/1404.2463.pdf) which manages to compute extremely accurate high-order derivatives ("...even the 100th derivative of an analytic function can be computed with near machine precision accuracy using standard floating point arithmetic"!!!), see also [http://www.chebfun.org/examples/cheb/Turbo.html](http://www.chebfun.org/examples/cheb/Turbo.html)

* * *

Anyhow, for folks trying to take derivatives of (or do various other operations to) arbitrary continuous functions, I recommend checking out Chebfun – [http://www.chebfun.org](http://www.chebfun.org) – a Matlab library created by a group of applied mathematicians at Oxford.

Instead of just looking at a couple points near some point of interest, Chebfun approximates the continuous function over some interval to near machine precision by a high-degree polynomial, and then operates on that polynomial.

Operations like numerical differentiation are much more accurate when you make the right "global" (i.e. not just at one single point) approximation.

Also check out Nick Trefethen's book Approximation Theory and Approximation Practice, the first 6 chapters of which are available online: [http://www.chebfun.org/ATAP/atap- first6chapters.pdf](http://www.chebfun.org/ATAP/atap-first6chapters.pdf)

<comment><USER3> The paper by Lyness and Moler is nice, but if it's really "about the idea in this post" then the fact is somewhat hidden. It's mostly about using the Cauchy integral formula to turn derivatives into integrals, using the Poisson summation formula to relate those to finite sums, and using the Moebius inversion formula to get those relations into a form from which you can extract the derivatives.

Maybe taking a very short partial sum of one of the series in Theorem 2 gives you the result in the blog post here, but that seems rather sledgehammer-to- crack-a-nut-ish when (as the blog post says) all you need is the Cauchy- Riemann equations.

I think it's true that the Lyness-Moler idea of "numerical differentiation by numerical complex integration" was, historically, part of the chain of ideas that led to the very simple "complex-step approximation" discussed in the blog post. But that's a far cry from saying that their paper is "about the idea in this post"!

There's some discussion of the history here: [http://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2013/10/14/complex-step- dif...](http://blogs.mathworks.com/cleve/2013/10/14/complex-step- differentiation/) where Moler (as in "Lyness and Moler") says "The complex step algorithm that I'm about to describe is much simpler than anything described in that 1967 paper. So, although we have some claim of precedence for the idea of using complex arithmetic on real functions, we certainly cannot claim to have invented today's algorithm."

And yes, Chebfun is very nice.

<comment><USER2> Fair enough. :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The article comments: "In a lot of respects, it's quite amazing how accurate many calculations can be made with floating numbers, like orbital mechanics and heat equations"

I'm not sure it is so surprising. In Nick Trefethen's _Numerical Analysis_ entry in _The Princeton Companion to Mathematics_ , he notes:

"Thus, on a computer, the interval [1 , 2] , for example, is approximated by about 10^16 numbers. It is interesting to compare the fineness of this discretization with that of the discretizations of physics. In a handful of solid or liquid or a balloonful of gas, the number of atoms or molecules in a line from one point to another is on the order of 10^8 (the cube root of Avogadro's number). Such a system behaves enough like a continuum to justify our definitions of physical quantities such as density, pressure, stress, strain, and temperature. Computer arithmetic, however, is more than a million times finer than this. Another comparison with physics concerns the precision to which fundamental constants are known, such as (roughly) 4 digits for the gravitational constant G, 7 digits for Planck's constant h and the elementary charge e, and 12 digits for the ratio μ_e/μ_B of the magnetic moment of the electron to the Bohr magneton. At present, almost nothing in physics is known to more than 12 or 13 digits of accuracy. Thus IEEE numbers are orders of magnitude more precise than any number in science. (Of course, purely mathematical quantities like π are another matter.)" [http://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/NAessay.pdf](http://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/NAessay.pdf)

<comment><USER5> That's an interesting point I had not considered. My view (mostly from the math side, my shallow dive into physical systems was just from a PDE class in grad school) is from the view of unstable differential equations where very small changes to initial conditions can cause massive changes to the output of the system. My uninformed instincts would tell me that even with orders of more digits than atoms in a physical system, changes smaller than the available accuracy to initial conditions could have significant impact on the eventual state of the system.

<comment><USER6> Another point of view on why it is not striking that we can model heat conduction well. The heat equation is well-posed, which among other things, means that the solution depends continuously of the input data. And we observe this in many physical systems, that small changes in the cause produces small changes in the effect, therefore, we should expect from good mathematical models of reality to display this property.

Now, orbital mechanics do display unstable behaviour. I don't dare to adventure on how people work around this. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well- posed_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-posed_problem)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't see any mention of automatic differentiation which I thought was the dominant technique in this area. Is there an advantage to the method described in OP (other than mathematical cuteness)?

<comment><USER8> No. Automatic differentiation is superior to the complex step method in every way.

The only reason to use the complex step method is if you're using legacy languages where it's difficult to implement dual numbers but you have good support for complex numbers. I don't think anybody should be using the complex step method in new applications.

Some reading ~ [http://aero- comlab.stanford.edu/Papers/martins.aiaa.01-0921....](http://aero- comlab.stanford.edu/Papers/martins.aiaa.01-0921.pdf)

<comment><USER9> wtf

Automatic differentiation only works for the simplest functions for which you already know what the Taylor series looks like. For those cases, you might as well just hardcode derivative functions and the basic derivative rules (linearity and chain rule). It is not a general-purpose method.

For functions that you can't even express by a simple formula, you still have to rely on finite differencing.

Don't call "legacy" anything that you don't understand.

<comment><USER8> The question was about automatic differentiation vs the method in the article (the complex step method) which is essentially a defective variant of automatic differentiation with a spurious numerical parameter.

Automatic differentiation works for any composition of those 'simplest functions' you mention, which is quite a lot of stuff, including whole programs.

Approximation methods have their place, sure. Sometimes they're good enough and sometimes it's all you can do. What does that have to do with anything?

<comment><USER7> Thanks for the link, btw. I'm in the process of digesting the paper.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Had the following thought just to entertain myself, I don't expect it to have any utility in practice, but here goes:

Take a small interval around your smooth function that includes the point where you want to compute the derivative. Joint the right and left ends by just reflecting itself, so that you have a differentiable periodic function. Now sample that at a suitable rate, take its FFT, derive the FFT of the derivative by multiplying it with 2\pi I. Take the inverse FFT and evaluate it at the point of interest. May be useful if you want to compute the derivative at many points, but seems wasteful otherwise.

One of course has to dot the i's and cross the t's (of aliasing effects, Nyquist limits etc). Perhaps some other _fast_ integral transform would work even better. I will be surprised if there isn't an old industry around it.

<comment><USER11> This is called a spectral method and is widely used in numerical codes.

I highly recommend Spectral Methods in MATLAB by Trefethen (who someone mentions above) for a very good tutorial. You can freely ignore the MATLAB part and use whatever programming language you want, as long as you have an FFT routine.

<comment><USER10> Thanks for pointing to the right direction in case I want scratch that itch more. I am not surprised though that this has been done, expected the same. From a quick look, no one seems to suggest reflecting the original analytic function to get a periodic function, I guess some caveats lurk there.

Does other integral transforms work better than Fourier ?

<comment><USER11> When you use this method you are implicitly making the function periodic. I can give you any function on some interval (sufficiently well behaved) and you can compute the Fourier series of it. Even though it's only defined on the interval, if you plotted the Fourier series you would still find it to be periodic. The same idea carries over to the spectral derivative. Even if the function isn't periodic, the method still works, it's just that the numerics near the discontinuity are going to be crap and can affect things further away. But if you are sufficiently far away, things are kosher. Note there are ways of dealing with this using Chebyshev interpolation (see [http://math.mit.edu/~stevenj/fft-deriv.pdf](http://math.mit.edu/~stevenj/fft- deriv.pdf) section 6) which Trefethen's book also discusses.

And no FFTs are the only transformations I am aware of. I've never heard of anyone using other transformations in a general numerical context, outside of specialized problems.

<comment><USER10> Given the local nature of the problem and the potential for using O(n) operations (as opposed n log n) my first suspect was wavelet transforms and sure enough people have done that but that body of work seems more recent than the use of FFT.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I was trying to figure out how this works algebraically, and I think I understand for polynomials (or power series) at least. Basically, for a really small number a, ai has the property that (ai)^2 is effectively zero, so one can think of this as working with the dual numbers themselves (i.e., throwing out the x^2 term and onward in a power series). The focus on analytic functions is then because they are representable by power series at each point. I think this is what lloda is referring to.

</comment><comment><USER13> Lost me a bit at

      Im(f(x+ih))/h

near the end (that's a fancy I that android FF won't paste). Can anyone explain where 'm' came from?

Or is 'Im' just a fn returning the imaginary part of its argument?

EDIT: reading the code following, it's clear that Im is just that.

<comment><USER14> I was also lost at that part, although for a different reason. The function f was assumed to be from R to R, so it does not make formal sense to plug in f(x+ih).

I guess the author has the unstated assumption that f is the restriction to R of a function on C.

<comment><USER5> Great point, and I apologize for the confusion. The function should be C to C, with the added restriction of R to R.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This was so much fun to read.

<comment><USER5> Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I DO think Python libraries can do this already.

<comment><USER4> The scipy.misc.derivative() function uses a central difference formula, rather than exploiting the fact that a function is analytic: [https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/generated/scipy.m...](https://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/generated/scipy.misc.derivative.html)

Applying the Cauchy–Riemann equations to essentially take finite differences in the _imaginary_ direction is an interesting trick I hadn't seen before, so I appreciated an article introducing it.

Edit: A separate python package, Numdifftools, does seem to support complex- step differentiation [https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Numdifftools](https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Numdifftools)</comment></comment>


Wager 101: Students Bet on Their Grades - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703824304575435494221610702.html?mod=WSJ_hps_MIDDLETopStories

<comment><USER2> This was covered pretty extensively a week ago, although no one commented on it then:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1599523> : USA Today

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1595995> : Hack Education

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1595526> : Philly.com

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1592416> : Huffington Post

<comment><USER2> ADDED IN EDIT : I wrote what follows when the parent comment had been down- voted to 0. As I write this it's been re-up-voted to 1. Who knows where it will go next - I watch with curiousity, but little understanding.

</comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>====

Bizarre - some people up-vote people who cross-reference items about the same topic, and others down-vote. I guess it's my background in wiki technology, always wanting to cross-reference and make things tidy, as opposed to the forum mind-set that seems happy to tolerate sprawling, ephemeral discussions rather than create something of lasting value.

For one, I hate wasting effort, and wasting other people's efforts. I thought that cross-referencing tuff would help prevent duplication of effort, and generally enrich the information, but clearly there are others who not only disagree, but actively think it's of negative value.

<shrug> I don't understand that, but would be happy to read an explanation.

<comment><USER3> I appreciate the cross-referencing, as you provided four additional sources for more information.

I'm guessing that in this case, however, your phrasing may have come across as dismissive. Its not hard to imagine an overly-critical reader (someone who isn't giving your motives the benefit of the doubt) seeing "This was covered pretty extensively a week ago, although no one commented on it then" and inferring "so why are you posting it again? Here I'll add a bunch of links to prove I'm right."

I could be wrong.

<comment><USER2>
      > ... your phrasing may have come across as dismissive ...

OK, noted, thanks. I'll bear that in mind.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This brings new meaning to the expression "don't sell yourself short".

</comment><comment><USER5> From their FAQ: "You are not required to enter your academic login. You can enter your courses into our system manually and you can verify your grades by mailing us your official transcript."

I don't know how these transcripts look like in the US, but it seems like here's a loophole for fraud.

<comment><USER6> Official transcripts are mailed by the school, not by the student, and are somewhat difficult to spoof.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Aren't we missing the point? Grades aren't what's important - learning is. Until the school system gives people real motivation (i.e. not just saying "do this, and we'll give you an A"), we're not going to make any progress in getting more capable graduates / citizens.</comment>


Show HN: Responsible disclosure: what is it? how to do it? (RFC, WIP) - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/responsible_disclosure <comment><AUTHOR> [https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/responsible_disclosur...](https://github.com/joelparkerhenderson/responsible_disclosure)

Constructive criticism welcome. This is a first draft, work in progress, request for comments.

Responsible disclosure is a hot topic in the news because of the recent large security breaches.

My professional work in software development involves responsible disclosure often.

I'm open-sourcing my responsible disclosure notes.

I use these with consulting clients to help them learn about responsible disclosure, how it works, and how to help their users do it.</comment>


This floating-point precission error surprised me - <AUTHOR> https://jsfiddle.net/g15p5us9/ <comment><USER2> > _/ / We are using doubles (64-bits precision),_

> _/ / so you would expect Zero_

> _/ / or 1e-1000 ...._

The smallest number that can be represented with a normal double precision number is approximately 1e-308 (with subnormal numbers you can get 1e-324), so 1e-1000 is completely unrealistic.

But each calculation is done with a precision of approximately 15 digits, not 308 digits. In particular, if you see 0.87 the actual number is something like

      0.8700000000000002365426121879219

      0.87000000000000094383991287

      0.87000000000000026190262019827

I'm too lazy to lookup the exact number, but the error is something like 1e-15.

Moreover, each calculation is rounded with approximately a precision of 15 digits. So the most optimistic possibility is to get a result that has approximately 15 accurate digits, not 300 or 1000 accurate digits

But in this example you are repeating the addition N = 4000000 times. With some hand waving and unsupported assumptions, you can estimate that if each sum has a relative error of 1e-15 and you sum 4e6 of them, the final relative error will be 4e-9. [You shouldn't add relative errors ...]

The final value of RxN in the example is 3480000.00030716, so the relative error is 0.00030716/3480000 = 8.8e-11 that is 100 smaller that my easy hand waving argument. So it's time to use wild guess ...

a) You are lucky and the error is smaller. ???

b) The rounding is sometimes upwards and sometimes downwards (look the details in the standard) and they somehow cancel. [If they were random the error would grow as sqrt(N) instead of N.] ???

c) In the first 1000000 iterations the value of RxN is smaller, so the same relative error gives a smaller absolute error. So we can ignore the error in the first millions of iterations. ???

I'm not sure if a), b) or c) is the better explanation, but an error of 1/1e11 is not surprising for me.

</comment><comment><USER3> Why is there a pop-up window?

<comment><AUTHOR> The page executes my code, and my code contains the alert() command.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> 64bits? isnt this javascript?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, the Number type in JS is defined as IEEE 754 64-bit floating point number. The result would be the same everywhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's nothing surprising about this...?</comment>


Netflix launches in Brazil, rest of Latin America to follow shortly. - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/09/05/netflix-starts-rolling-out-movie-and-tv-show-streaming-service-to-mexico-latin-america-and-the-caribbean/

<comment><USER2> This is great news for Argentina!

Our TV providers are pretty much Telecentro and Cablevisión, we need more competition. Hopefully Netflix will be able to shake up the market.

Not sure how our current Internet infrastructure will hold-up, though. Maybe Netflix will help push for more investment in the area. :)

</comment><comment><USER3> I wonder how exactly are they going to be charging this in Venezuela... given that Venezuelans only have an allowed budget of 400$ a year to use for Internet purchases if they don't allow for payment in local currency (Bolivares) is going to be hard to get some traction.

<comment><USER4> They will be using the local currency for every country.

<comment><USER3> That's very interesting. In Venezuela there is a controlled currency market meaning that is illegal to trade in foreign currency without the approval of the local government.

Right now Venezuelan have the following impositions:

You get a maximum of 5000 dollars a year for travel. Is not 5K for every travel you make, is 5K for all the trips you might take on a given year.

Not only that you don't get them all at once: you must report were you are going to and they have a table of predefined amounts for each destination. For example:

If you go to the USA, you get something like 50 dollars a day. This mean that if you go 30 days, they (the government) will approve you 1500$.

These 1500$ of course comes with some restrictions: you can only use them in the country you said you were going to. This means that if I happen to take a small trip to Toronto, I can't spend any of that money. If I do there are serious consequences (penalties)

On the Internet side of things, you get 400$ a year for Internet purchases.

When I say get, I mean you are allowed to buy that amount of dollars at the set market price of 4.3 Bolivares per dollar. This price is set by the government.

At this point it should be pretty obvious to anyone reading this that all these impositions have create a secondary market (which by law, as a Venezuelan, I can't talk about it) But let's say the price of the dollar is quite high.

How is any of this related to Netflix?

Netflix is going to charge in Bolivares. Then they will need to go to the government to ask permission to change those Bolivares at the current set market rate. The main issue here is that most likely the government won't be giving them the needed currency (not necessarily because they don't want to, but because they don't have enough cash to do it).

What happens then: Netflix will be full of Bolivares, that are subject to a 30% inflation a year. So they would inevitably need to go to the secondary market to change those Bolivares to Dollars.

This has its consequences: they would get about half of what they would if the government granted them the requested currency and second, trading in the secondary market is highly illegal these days with some serious jail time.

So, Netflix in Venezuela, to me seems like an strategic move to cover the region, but business wise I don't see it lasting long if the current limitations stay.

Other than that, I think is great they are investing in Venezuela :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Could Netflix buy a bunch of oil using their stores of local currency and then ship that oil to the states and resell it?

Just a thought. I doubt Netflix wants to get into the oil shipping business. :)

<comment><USER3> Not really :)

Oil in Venezuela is traded in Dollars so you would have the same problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I can finally get rid of my US$100/month cable service. Awesome.

We desperately need some competiton around here (although not technically,in practice it is a monopoly).

</comment><comment><USER4> This is a huge step forward for Netflix and [hopefully] for other tech. companies. The latin american market is huge (especially Brazil, a country that's exploding economically right now).

If this turns out to be a good investment for them (and I'm sure it will, they have first mover's advantage) other companies will start following.

</comment><comment><USER6> Its going to be interesting to see if the Starz deal is going to affect this at all. Anecdotal, but I cancelled my subscription a few months ago after being disappointed with the availability of streaming titles as it was, I cant imagine what itll be like with a further diminished streaming library.

Its a shame that content owners and distributors havent been able to work out a deal. There is money to be made every time someone pirates a movie because there is literally no way for them to pay for it. I wonder if it would be possible for Netflix or Hulu to sustain libraries like that without moving the price past traditional cable services.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, I tend to agree. I personally find that 90%+ of the movie content on Netflix is not worth watching (the TV show selection, however, is great).

If Netflix continues growing, I could see a scenario much like the iTunes Music Store vis-a-vis the record labels, where a dominant distributor can essentially dictate terms to content providers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I wonder if this means that if you have a US account and travel to Mexico or Brazil you are going to be able to watch w/o the restrictions? if so would the content be the same? or different from an account of the country where I'm currently on vacation? I guess we will know soon

<comment><USER8> from their blog post

[http://blog.netflix.com/2011/09/netflix-launches-in-latin- am...](http://blog.netflix.com/2011/09/netflix-launches-in-latin-america.html)

Read the 1st comment <http://yfrog.com/18s1ep>

"Fantastic. Does that mean if I have a US account I can use it when I visit these countries?"

Answer: "yes you can, but you will be able to see only the content available in country you are visiting"

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wonder what the selection is like in Latin America? Here in Canada the selection is pretty meagre compared to the US, but I still think it's a great deal at $7.99 a month. Just watched the BBC "Sherlock" series and that alone was worth the price.

<comment><USER10> (shameless plug) I'm creating a list of the best Zip.ca and Netflix.ca movies and tv series for us Canadians, still a work in progress: <http://bestmoviescanada.com/> (for Netflix you can click to watch the movie directly)

<comment><USER9> I think it's a great idea - there's a lot of crap to sort through. I checked out your site, I think it would be easier if you made separate lists for netflix and zip.ca

<comment><USER10> Thanks. Netflix is going to go on a second list since they have few good and recent movies, its strength is in tv series and documentaries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Telefonica released internet plans up to 30Mbps in Peru just two weeks ago. But it comes with mandatory HD cable. If you want just internet, the fastest plan they'll give you is a 4Mbps connection (or a 5Mbps "business" plan).

</comment><comment><USER12> Was no one doing a netflix clone in Latin America all this time?

<comment><USER13> Globo launched Muu (muu.globo.com) a month or two ago, which is basically a Brazilian clone of Hulu, and will probably be Netflix's main competitor. Yes, it's pronounced like the sound a cow makes.

Globo runs the main broadcast TV channel and the main cable TV channels as well, so they've presumably got the rights to Brazilian TV content pretty much locked up. They also own the main cable channels which show movies as well (the Telecine channels).

It will be interesting to see how the Muu vs. Netflix competition pans out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I subscribed and unsubscribed because the selection of movie is awful + it doesn't work with Linux or a CPU with less than 1.2 Ghz. :(

</comment><comment><USER7> There's been quite a lot of talk that NFLX is overpriced. As the company continues to expand internationally, I wonder whether we'll look back and marvel how cheap it was.</comment>


Make it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at work (UK) - <AUTHOR> This petition has just hit 120,000.<p>Seems obvious that work dress code should allow comfortable option. Great this is getting traction in the UK <comment><USER3> This is an interesting idea, but I disagree with it only because I don't think the government should be in the business of telling a company what is dress code should be. Is there another way we could achieve the same goal?

<comment><USER4> The government is already sort-of in that business, according to the BBC:

> As the law stands, employers can dismiss staff who fail to live up to > "reasonable" dress code demands, as long as they've been given enough time > to buy the right shoes and clothes.

> They can set up different codes for men and women, as long as there's an > "equivalent level of smartness".

Speculating here: One might be able to argue in court that for a receptionist, high heels are a greater level of smartness than whatever the male dress code is.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's a link to the petition: [https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/129823](https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/129823)

> It's still legal in the UK for a company to require female members of staff > to wear high heels at work against their will. Dress code laws should be > changed so that women have the option to wear flat formal shoes at work, if > they wish. Current formal work dress codes are out-dated and sexist.

It follows this case: [http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england- london-36264229](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36264229)

> Temp worker Nicola Thorp, 27, from Hackney, arrived at finance company PwC > to be told she had to wear shoes with a "2in to 4in heel".

> When she refused and complained male colleagues were not asked to do the > same, she was sent home without pay.

> Outsourcing firm Portico said Ms Thorp had "signed the appearance > guidelines" but it would now review them.

(You can submit either a link, or text, but not both.)

<comment><USER6> >Dress code laws should be changed so that women have the option to wear flat formal shoes at work, if they wish.

What about models or hostess where wearing high heels is a part of the job?

<comment><USER5> There are exceptions for things that are intrinsic parts of the job - <USER2> come under "proportionate means to achieve legitimate aim" or somesuch.

Wearing heels is not something receptionists need to do to perform their job - and wearing heels is likely to make their job harder. It'd be great if she got some legal funding to challenge this, or if it's not challengeable that she gets enough signatures to force a change.

<comment><USER7> > Wearing heels is not something receptionists need to do to perform their job

Wearing a suit and tie wasn't necessary to perform my job as a programmer and was actively uncomfortable in the Summer when the women could wear sandals and low-cut tops.

We challenged the dress code on several occasions with HR and their eventual solution was... Dress-down Fridays.

Eventually one of the officers from the US HQ asked why all the guys were wearing ties when he didn't. That forced a change but there was no UK legal obligation for a harmonised unisex dress-code.

<comment><USER8> I don't know if you noticed, but you made a slight change in topic.

DanBC's comment was that there are cases where workplace sex discrimination is allowed, because they are part of the primary purpose of the company.

For example, the Playboy club can decide to only employ women as hosts, and require them to wear bunny costumes. This is a requirement for the type of service the Playboy club provides.

On the other hand, Hooters cannot refrain from hiring men as hosts, because Hooters is primarily a restaurant. (I apologize for not knowing the UK equivalent for this example.)

Wearing high heels is not a requirement of secretarial work, so this exception does not apply. But a company can still regulate clothing even if not part of the job requirement.

In Sweden, where I live, it is not (I believe) legal to discriminate based on sex for the dress code. That does not mean there is a "harmonised unisex dress-code." For example, a few years ago the temperature in Stockholm was so warm that the male underground operators wanted to wear shorts. This is not allowed by the dress code. It is allowed to wear skirts, which is what they did. (See for example [http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nid...](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nid=48548) ).

Under that framework, you should have been allowed to wear sandals and low-cut tops, and the women should be allowed to wear a suit and tie.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> So people are asking the government to protect themselves from their own stupidity? She should've read the contract before signing.

Everything that differentiates a woman or man is "sexist", it doesn't mean its bad or only impacts one gender. (There are rules unique for men too).

<comment><USER10> _> She should've read the contract before signing._

The point is, the clause in the contract about high-heeled shoes should be null and void.

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What do women do (and companies allow) if they have a disability or are elderly? I imagine if you are blind, old, on crutches etc... heals of any height would be challenging if not impossible.

</comment><comment><USER12> It already is - and it is in the rest of the EU.

Take your pick of legislation, whether discrimination or health and safety.

<comment><USER5> It is potentially not illegal in the UK.

Employers are allowed to set dress codes, and those dress codes are allowed to be different for men and women.</comment></comment>


Using the original Symbolics Keyboard with the Mac - <AUTHOR> http://lispm.dyndns.org/news?ID=NEWS-2008-07-27-1

<comment><USER2> The tops of the keys are spherical, which I have not been able to find in a modern keyboard (with the exception that the 8 home keys on some Kinesis keyboards are spherical -- or at least were when I bought a Kinesis about 7 years ago -- but 8 spherical keys is much less nice than all spherical keys).

Most external PC keyboards have cylindrical key tops these days, and most laptops have followed the lead of Apple and Sony and adopted flat key tops, which IMHO are much worse than cylindrical ones, which in turn for theoretical reasons strike me as slightly worse than the spherical ones that used to be the standard in the 1970s (and 1980s?). I say "for theoretical reasons" because again I have not been able to get my hands on a keyboard with spherical key tops to try.

Good keyboard technique IMHO requires committing the position of the keys to "muscle memory" so that most keystrokes can be done in a single "ballistic" movement. (Some keystrokes will require a "windup" movement similar to the "backstroke" movement of a tennis racket before the "stroke" movement of actually hitting the ball although in an expert typist, these backstrokes will be extremely subtle -- the point being that these backstrokes are an exception to the general rule of only one ballistic movement per key press.) The theoretical reason for preferring spherical key tops to cylindrical and cylindrical to flat is that the curves give the brain more information about the exact position of the hand relative to the keyboard so that the next ballistic movement is more likely to find its target.

Most keyboards with flat keytops, like modern Apple keyboards, have the little pips or nubs on the F and J keys, and I rely extremely heavily on them when I type on such keyboards, to the extent that I use the hand that is not making a stroke to feel for the nub, but I really prefer the enhanced information about hand position I get from a cylindrical keyboard even if it is a cheap $20 Dell external keyboard or one of the (even cheaper) internal laptop keyboards on a Toshiba that is a few years old (the new ones follow the fad started by Sony and Apple for flat key tops).

Professional piano players can lose their careers if they get RSI, and I get the impression that the risk for piano players is greater than it is for programmers, and there was a piano teacher or consultant named Dorothy Taubman who had valuable knowledge about proper technique. Rather than reading about Taubman technique, it is better to go on Youtube and watch tutorials about it, BTW. As of 2008 or so it was possible to see what I mean above about the necessity (or extreme desirability) of backstroke movements this ways (using videos about the piano exercise called "scales").

Since good technique requires committing the keyboard to memory however, non- standard keyboard layouts (or more precisely layouts different from the ones the keyboardist is used to) are very "expensive" in time required to adapt properly to them, and sadly this Symbolics has a lot of keys in nonstandard positions.

Kinesis "ergonomic" keyboards (the $240 ones) BTW are the worst keyboards I have ever used IMHO because the keys are not coplanar and not "double coplanar" like the good ergo keyboards like the Microsoft Naturals were, so the typist has to memorize the elevation and (in the case of the Kinesis) two degrees of freedom worth of angle of each and every key, which I found pretty much impossible. (Yes, the $240 Kinesis keyboards have "mechanical" keys, and yes, they are superior, but get one of the many boards that puts those superior mechanical keys in one or 2 planes so that their postitions are not almost-impossible to memorize.) Modern Microsoft "ergonomic" boards (except the really cheap white "Natural" ones if they still make those) do not have coplanar or "doubly coplanar" (falling into 2 planes) keys either, and consequently they seem like awful keyboards, although unlike the Kinesis, I have never owned one to try it extensively, and unlike the Kinesis, at least the (spherical, solid) angles of the keys do not IIRC point drastically in all manner of directions (but rather it seems to be mostly the _elevation_ (and for some keys, e.g., B and N, the _position_ ) of the individual keys that varies and consequently needs to be memorized).</comment>


Robert Langlands: The Greatest Mathematician You've Never Heard Of? - <AUTHOR> https://thewalrus.ca/the-greatest-mathematician-youve-never-heard-of/ <comment><USER2> If you haven't heard of Langlands but have heard of Andrew Wiles and his proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, you may be interested to learn that the two are somewhat closely related. Wiles actually proved a part of the modularity theorem, which had been shown by Frey, Serre, and Ribet to imply FLT in the 80s.

The modularity theorem is very much a Langlands-style theorem and could be seen as a more concrete version of many of the ideas and conjectures that form the Langlands program. The conjecture now known as the modularity theorem was formulated as early as the 50s and 60s by Taniyama and Shimura, thus predating the Langlands program, and it was taken seriously once Weil gave conceptual evidence for it (but did not come close to a proof).

In fact, the modularity theorem is just a very oddly phrased reciprocity law. General reciprocity laws often look astonishingly nothing like the simple law of quadratic reciprocity, or they require some clever squinting to see the relationship. Modularity gives you for any rational elliptic curve E a modular form which is a simultaneous eigenvector for the Hecke operators (one for each prime number p) and whose eigenvalues give the solution counts of the elliptic curve equation modulo p for various primes p. These eigenvalues are also the coefficients in the Fourier expansion of the modular form.

</comment><comment><USER3> Oh, Robert Langlands!

I worked on a short film about him, for the Abel Prize ceremony, last March.

[http://www.abelprize.no/artikkel/vis.html?tid=73176](http://www.abelprize.no/artikkel/vis.html?tid=73176)

<comment><USER4> Nice short film. Langlands was a theory builder as opposed to someone like Erdos who was more interested in solving problems. Theory builders are often admired, but because the endeavor is so broad, very few of them emerge and even fewer are actually successful.

I like the part where he said he began to write before he understood everything, and in order to write he had to discover many things, and even had to discover them after he started to write.

It underscores the crucial role of writing in discovery. Most writers will tell you they are exploring the space during the writing process. Writing isn't a process of committing what you already know to paper; it's a process of learning what you don't know and or haven't considered. It often leads you down paths you would never expect. (this happens to me with my HN comments too -- I often myself writing a very different comment from the one I set out to write)

This is why I think a Ph.D. dissertation should be a continuously evolving collection of notes, and not something you "write-up" in the end after all the work is ostensibly done.

<comment><USER5> > _as opposed_

From _The Rising Sea: Grothendieck on simplicity and generality_ by C. McLarty:

Grothendieck describes two styles in mathematics. If you think of a theorem to be proved as a nut to be opened, so as to reach "the nourishing flesh protected by the shell", then the hammer and chisel principle is: "put the cutting edge of the chisel against the shell and strike hard. If needed, begin again at many different points until the shell cracks—and you are satisfied". He goes on to say: "I can illustrate the second approach with the same image of a nut to be opened. The first analogy that came to my mind is of immersing the nut in some softening liquid, and why not simply water? From time to time you rub so the liquid penetrates better, and otherwise you let time pass. The shell becomes more flexible through weeks and months—when the time is ripe, hand pressure is enough, the shell opens like a perfectly ripened avocado!"

<comment><USER6> Incidentally, I have heard Serre's work described as the exemplar of the hammer-and-chisel approach. (McLarty goes on to say that Bourbaki's work fits in the rising-sea approach, which is surprising to me.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> More like greatest mathematician whose work I've never understood. Sadly. At least I can reduce Grothendieck to algebraic topology or Wiles to number theory plus that one old problem. Terry Tao to analysis. But Langlands? Interconnectivity of all sub-fields? I've got nothing.

<comment><USER8> I highly recommend reading Edward Frenkel's memoir, _Love and Math_ , which is more or less an up close and personal popular account of the author's involvement with the Langlands Program:

 _Perhaps the most remarkable part of the book though is the way it makes a serious attempt to tackle the problem of explaining one of the deepest sets of ideas in mathematics, those which go under the name of the "Langlands program". These ideas have fascinated me for years, and much of what I have learned about them has come from reading some of Frenkel's great expository articles on the subject. To anyone who wants to learn more about this subject, the best advice for how to proceed is to read the overview in "Love and Math" (which you likely won't fully understand, but which will give you a general picture and glimpses of what is really going on), and then try reading some of his more technical surveys [...]_

[http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=6266](http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=6266)

<comment><USER7> Thanks! I'll take a look.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> He has a lecture series I've posted about a few times - [https://video.ias.edu/The-Practice-of-Mathematics](https://video.ias.edu/The- Practice-of-Mathematics)

</comment><comment><USER10> Working mathematician here --

1\. Langlands is indeed a great mathematician, whose work has been enormously influential.

2\. Most of us aren't all that eccentric. He wrote his paper in _Russian_ , a language which he (presumably) does not natively speak, apparently just for the heck of it? That's just weird.

Most of the mathematicians I know, including the most influential ones, are relatively normal people. And they want as many people to read their work as possible, and don't throw up artificial roadblocks. (Most working mathematicians cannot read or write Russian.)

3\. There is not that big of a conflict between pure and applied mathematicians. (Except when they're competing for money, or trying to decide whom to hire in their departments.)

The most common attitude among pure mathematicians is: we work on mathematical questions for their own sake, and don't think too much about applications to the "real world" \-- but we are happy if it is brought to our attention that such applications exist.

<comment><USER11> Presumably that's the paper in Russian - [https://publications.ias.edu/sites/default/files/iztvestiya_...](https://publications.ias.edu/sites/default/files/iztvestiya_3.pdf)

It's understandable, but with lots of grammatical, spelling and stylistic mistakes. Basically it reads like something Google Translate would produce.

<comment><USER12> He has a discussion at the very end (on the last two pages) about his decision to write in Russian, in which he acknowledges that he may not have done very well. Google Translate's version of the final paragraph:

> This article is a consequence of two pushes, first of all, an attempt to > understand the nature of the geometric theory, to form a clear idea about > the difference between it and the arithmetic theory and their similarity. > Here I think I was successful, although I do not argue a little. Secondly, I > wanted to significantly improve my knowledge of Russian. Here I had only > limited success. For me, Russian is on a completely different level than the > two foreign languages with which I am familiar, French and German. As I > noted above, Russian is much more difficult than I appreciated, even more > than Turkish, another language in which I have a limited but hard-to-work > ability. Therefore, my efforts and the efforts of friends and acquaintances > who encouraged me as I wrote this article had limited success. I am still > pleased that, despite my age, I do not regret either the time or the effort > that I have given her.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > _Most mathematicians also agree that the Langlands Program could help find a > proof for the Riemann Hypothesis, probably the most famous unsolved > mathematical problem (about the distribution of prime numbers). These > problems are just as abstract as Langlands's own work, however, which means > his research program as it was originally conceived has little relevance to > everyday life._

I dunno, figuring out the Riemann Hypothesis could have some far reaching consequences for our understanding of prime numbers, and therefore cryptography, no?

<comment><USER14> No, for any practical applications, we might as well work assume it is true, the same way we assume quantum physics or relativity are true when building stuff.

<comment><USER15> And if we actually prove it's not true?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> E. Frenkel who was also mentioned in the article (as being in a kind of opposition to Langlands), is an interesting figure in his own right. His own account on his career in mathematics is fascinating.

<comment><USER16> I took linear algebra from Professor Frenkel. He was indeed one of the most eccentric professors I had. He made a film called Rites of Math and Love whose trailer was very popular (as a laughing material) in our class.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> HN has heard of him: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Langlands%20points%3E3&sort=by...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Langlands%20points%3E3&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

</comment><comment><USER18> I've heard of him and I'm just a regular everyday normal guy who codes for a living.

<comment><USER19> You'd be surprised how "regular everyday guys" haven't heard of him.

In fact I'd be surprised if most US citizens can even name the vice president of the US, even with all the hoopla around Trump's presidency...

<comment><USER20> Conversation topic transition diagram in the past few years:

Politics -> Trump

History -> Trump

Computing -> Trump

...

Mathematics -> Trump

Trump -> Trump

* -> Trump

That gets old pretty soon.

<comment><USER21> Is this how Godwin's law ends?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> "Langlands's"! Now that's eccentric.

</comment><comment><USER23> It's Robert Langlands[1], for anybody who doesn't want to give in to the clickbait title

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Langlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Langlands)

<comment><USER19> We should stop abusing the term clickbait for everything and anything.

Journalists (and editors) used juicy titles since centuries, as part of the art of writing a piece, even when the piece was buried well inside a newspaper or magazine that you would have already bought to see it anyway...

"This is an article about Robert_Langlands the mathematician" doesn't strike as nice as a title.

This is a typical journalistic title, and not at all the same as the modern notion of clickbait (not to mention the article is a legit article, and not some clickbait listicle or similar BS).

<comment><USER23> >This is a typical journalistic title, and not at all the same as the modern notion of clickbait

I can see where you're coming from (since the article does contain interesting details and isn't just restating the headline), but I think this title sits closer to modern clickbait, in the spectrum that runs from dry description to full-on clickbait.

I will admit, that this style of title has always infuriated me in particular: it feels like the editor is infantilising their audience by imagining the public only know the things that journalists decide to write.

Also I'd personally expect a journalistic title to at least mention the subject. Even something as simple as "Robert Langlands: the mathematician you've never heard of" would be a big improvement

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> There should be a submission guideline that disallows such useless titling.

<comment><USER25> You can downvote and flag the post, but the title of the submission is the same as the title of the article, so I see no problem. Unless of course the article is pure clickbait.

<comment><USER24> I don't think it worth flagging, maybe some HN readers are interested in Langland's work? Just retitle it, prefix [note for clickbait-aversed: it's Langland]

<comment><USER26> I wouldn't do that, I'd just prefix `Langland: `, so the title remains as in the article, but a bit like a subtitle.

(I Would Also Remove Clickbait Case But Maybe That's Just Me!)

<comment><USER24> Well, The work of Saints is done through others. It's been fixed by forces higher than us.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> But did he win the Putman?

<comment><AUTHOR> It seems to me that doing well in competitions is a separate question from going on to do amazing research. There are plenty of people who did phenomenally well in competitions and then went on to be successful being mathematicians in other fields, working at _Big Co,_ or starting up their own company, but most of the really, really top mathematicians that I know didn't go in for competitions.

There are exceptions, but it's almost like being a top research mathematician is independent (in the technical sense) of doing well in competitions.

<comment><USER28> I'm pretty sure the comment you're replying to wasn't so much a serious question as a reference to this little incident on HN: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079)

<comment><AUTHOR> Indeed, but I like to play with a straight bat, and I think the point was worth making regardless.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: The new peek and pop feature in IPhone 6S - <AUTHOR> Does the new peek and pop in IPhone 6s feature works on default on all apps or is that something which needs to be coded? <comment><USER2> Needs to be implemented, here's a guide: [https://littlebitesofcocoa.com/80](https://littlebitesofcocoa.com/80)</comment>


FT.com hijacked? - <AUTHOR>

Anyone else being redirected to a landing page? <comment><AUTHOR> Never mind, looks like I've got a virus. Something to do with searchdeiscovered.</comment>


A simple LaTeX framework - piotr-yuxuan https://github.com/piotr-yuxuan/kiss-latex-mindset <comment><AUTHOR> So what is this? A glance at the README and it's not obvious what it does.

Also, it would be much nicer to serve an "example" directory instead of a zip file!

</comment><comment><USER2> If you're aiming for this, isn't it easier to just use TeX?</comment>


Container Camp Announced for September 11th in London - <AUTHOR> https://container.camp/

<comment><AUTHOR> The CFP is now open until July 31st.</comment>


Ask HN: want to create a group of code hackers in London? - <AUTHOR>

Hi, first post here. As I was hacking into my Ruby code for the MVP last night, I thought I don't know a lot of people that are doing the same here in London. Hence the desire to find similar people with which meet fortnightly in the weekend or during the week as you prefer, to hack on our startups. That would allow to share knowledge, solve problems together and form a kind of core group. If it goes well we could have an our own venue where to meet. What do you think? Let me now.<p>Alessandro <comment><USER2> Hi, I'm moving from Germany to London (tomorrow) precisely to find more opportunities to network and attend technical/business events. There are actually many of them, check Lanyrd for a good (but not exhaustive) list <http://lanyrd.com/places/london/>.

In any case, I'm in for these kind of events (feel free to connect on Linkedin to keep in touch, see my profile)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I mean, there are a lot of meetups, to which I already go, but I wanted to do a thing more about doing things than talking about them! PS: could you please up-vote so more people can see the thread? Thx</comment></comment>


Autonomy to remain UK-based after HP takeover - <AUTHOR> http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/it-business/3298012/autonomy-to-remain-uk-based-after-hp-takeover/

<comment><USER2> How many times have you heard promsied of independence when an innovative software house is taken over by a a lumbering giant? I jsutdon't believe this.</comment>


Y Combinator - Advice for applicants. (from Mixwit, Winter 08) - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mixwit.com/2008/04/04/y-combinator-advice-for-applicants/

<comment><USER2> I feel like the core idea is pursue your passions intensely and revel in any opportunity to do so. But maybe I'm over simplifying

</comment><comment><USER3> Haha, awesome post! Indeed, acceptance or no, hopefully we're all in this to start startups, not just on condition of YC's approval. It does sound like a totally amazing and unique experience though, and honestly what seems coolest about it is the community aspect.

<comment><USER4> Yes -- if you're serious about starting your own business, you will never need anyone's approval or permission (except your wife's, if applicable!).

The community part of YC would indeed be cool, but personally, I'm going to start my company without YC. Moving across the country for 3 months isn't really practical after you have a wife and kids.

But the process is more are or less the same -- you just need to look for a community of peers and mentors yourself, if you can find them. And you need to work even harder to get yourself noticed by people who can fund you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I love how he basically repeats his YC advice for his non-YC advice. He makes the point very well.

<comment><USER6> yeah; it seemed very beautiful, didn't it?

<comment><USER7> It's a beautiful idea that what we most love to do is what we most morally should do.</comment></comment></comment>


What Saved Hostess: Automation and Firing 95% of the Union Workforce - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/06/what-saved-hostess-and-twinkies-automation-and-firing-95-of-the-union-workforce/#7dd9fb526ddb <comment><USER2> Rather insipid article that is trying to link mismanagement and muddled union contracts to the debate over increasing minimum wage. Nevermind the fact that I doubt many of the workers involved were working at minimum wage, or that the previous management, in addition to being bad at actually managing the business, were also involved in a number of shady practices of their own. Hostess's downfall and resurrection must all be the cause of wages being too high.</comment>


Hiding messages in chess games - <AUTHOR> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-spy-who-checkmated-me-why-postal-chess-was-banned-during-wartime <comment><AUTHOR> Tldr, playing chess over postal mail was banned during WW2 over fears of stenography. Besides a game that is suspected to contain a a hidden message, no declassified info about this being used in practice is mentioned in the article.</comment>


Blizzard to get $6 million from maker of WoW bot - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7645059.stm

<comment><USER2> Here's a link to a better version of the story: [http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081001-blizzard- award...](http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081001-blizzard- awarded-6-million-in-damages-from-wow-bot-maker.html)

Most important part, in my opinion: "This is troubling and creates a chilling precedent. It basically says that the copy of the software created in your system's RAM is okay under the license, and when you break the EULA by using software like MMOGlider the license is revoked, and you are suddenly left playing an unlicensed copy of the game."

</comment><comment><USER3> Coming from the background I have, I've seen the hammer of Blizzard before. Working on some of the projects I've had I've came to have a deep running disrespect and disgust of Blizzard and its owner Vivendi.

Blizzard has used its hammer numerous times on many people. Some small, some big... specifically calling to mind Blizzard vs. BNETD. What's unfortunate is that Blizzard is actually winning these arguments and its leaving us with precedence that EULA > The US Constitutions.... If anyone would take the time to read the EULA for World of Warcraft you'll find that some of the claims in it are completely outragous. More or less, if you do something that Blizzard doesn't like, you're liable to have to pay Blizzard for it.

I'm the kind of person who likes to have fun and use my imagination when I play games. I'll agree that I think it can ruin the game experience when players exploit to benefit themselves, but suing them for it just isn't right. It is the fact that not only did I risk getting my account banned but doing things like WoWGlider and writing programs that gave you advantage could also risk major lawsuits that I left WoW in the first place with the ambition of designing my own game where I could have fun with the game world and not have to worry about getting sued. I'm proud to say I made it decently far (though never got close to completion).

Personally, I view Blizzard as more ambitious than the RIAA at pursuing copyright infringements, and most of the infrignements Blizzard pursues aren't infringements at all. A lot of what Blizzard goes after are competitors who make money off Blizzard's product while not reproducing or redistributing their product. I just can't coprehend how Blizzard ever has justification to claim copyrights when a person or team, using their own knowledge and skills, writes their own programs from the ground up to alter the game's performance while not directly modifying any part of the game. In the terms of cheating, its justifiable to ban users breaking the policy, in terms of "3rd party servers" its justification to fix your own holes and make it harder to do.

At this rate, Blizzard's next EULA will say you can't install or play any other video game on the machine that WoW is installed or you'll have to pay three months subscription on the spot.

<comment><USER4> Blizzard is trying to preserve the experience of their product, not exploit people. It's not wrong to defend yourself, and the modern way to do that is by maintaining an active battalion of lawyers. The alternative is by physical force. I prefer the former.

<comment><USER5> The alternative isn't physical force. It's to just let people use your product as they please after they've bought it.

<comment><USER6> Allowing you to use the product as you please has the ability to hinder me from using the product how I please. Cheaters ruin the game for everyone, so it isn't as clear of a distinction as, for example, running whatever software you want on the iPhone.

<comment><USER3> I'm not going to argue that in many senses cheats ruin the game for the greater good... I'm saying there's a better way to handle it than suing your customers. Simple bans would work.

My post also is looking at a correlating problem in terms of "non-official" servers if you will. WoWGlider while in itself ruined the game experience when you were a player vs a player who used it. However, its ultimately ridiculous that someone who through their own might and knowledge can write a program that doesn't directly modify the actual content of the game, rather just controls outside variables to get it to behave differently than expected at a user's consent, and Blizzard can claim copyright and sue for millions.

The correct way to handle it would be removing players who are found to be using the product from the game and/or finding a way to make your program resistant to such outside influences.

Theoretically, the company shouldn't even be liable for "damages" since they didn't trick players into doing it, they didn't force them to do so, players went on their own and did it, knowing the consequences. The program itself had no direct effect on the protected files themselves, only indirect.

<comment><USER6> I agree with you in concept on everything except for one thing: "Simple bans would work." They don't. Not by a longshot.

If you've ever played the game, you get harassed by gold farmers all the time. It has been a constant arms race between WOWGlider and Blizzard, and in the times that WOWGlider is ahead, gold farmers are a significant annoyance in the game.

And therein lies the problem: this isn't a conceptual exercise, it is a problem in practice. Blizzard will never be able to ban 100% of WOWGlider users, and they will never be able to make their software 100% secure to this stuff. So, they have to attack it from all sides: they ban cheaters (I personally know someone banned after running the WOWGlider trial just once), they secure their software (I'm sure you've heard of the Blizzard Warden), and they go after the people who make this software.

Like I said, I agree with everything you said in concept. But in the real world, it isn't so easy to generalize everything into black and white.

PS: They aren't suing their customers, they are suing a company that ruins the experience of their customers.

<comment><USER3> I've played the game for 2.5 years and then some on and off, and I just recently stopped playing regularly as I started getting more involved with both school and my venture. Like I said, I won't disagree with you that gold farmers are ruining the game (though you used the term harassment and I've never been harassed on anything besides buying gold), but that's besides the point.

They're still suing a company for doing something they didn't do. They're going off on them on the DMCA which they didn't go against and the EULA (which they also didn't go against). That really would be the gold farmers and besides the gold farmers I'm sure nobody would complain about doing something about them specifically. Rather than taking care of the problem with farmers and direct cheaters, they're going after a mere background entity. Taking out WoWGlider, especially in the way they are, isn't going to stop the farmers in any way shape or form and it isn't going to stop people from cheating... all they're doing is ruining people's lives for creating something that is completely legal in its isolated form.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The math of this story doesn't make sense to me:

* World of Warcraft creator Blizzard looks set to get $6m (£3.36m) from the makers of a software 'bot'

* sold more than 100,000 copies of the $25 (£14) program.

So, estimated gross revenue is L1.4MM for the lifetime of the bot company, but Blizzard was awarded L3.33MM ---almost three times sales? I don't understand. Is this expected to ever be paid, or simply expected to crush the bot company?

<comment><USER7> I was thinking the same thing. The article does say at the end that there will be another court hearing in 2009 to decide whether he is personally responsible. I assume that is to cover the excess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Bots are used for two main purposes in WoW: farming and faster leveling.

Farming is much more harmful to the game than auto-leveling. Too much farming would ruin the in-game economy and cripple an essential part of the game. Farmers also often use the sale of gold and items as a pretense to phish passwords, which they then use for in-game spamming.

Blizzard should focus on fighting goldfarming and leave people who want to have a high-level character without spending weeks of their time on the game alone IMO.

</comment><comment><USER9> If people are willing to pay real money for virtual gold due to time issues, and the game isn't fun until you put 1000 hours into it, then it's a design flaw. People want instant gratification, not spending their time leveling up.

<comment><USER2> working for an MMO company, I've come to the conclusion that there are a significant number of people who enjoy the current MMO model. I compare it somewhat to crack cocaine (yeah, real creative, right?); you can complain all you want about how addictive it is and how it ruins peoples' lives, but while they're smoking it, they sure do feel good. Some people do it for the high, while some people do it to numb the pain and hardship of their real life.

There are a large number of people who agree with you, including me, but the bottom line is that the MMO grinding model works for the objective of keeping subscribers. Some people get frustrated, some people just hate the mechanics, but you can manage to keep the several hundred thousand subscribers you need to be profitable. You can't please everyone, so why not just please a particular niche market? The only downside is that MMO gamers are very, very, very, very, very whiny and hard to please, you could blame this on the fact that most MMOs are cookie-cutter clones of each other and thus gamers can easily get in a fit when their class is nerfed and join your competitor's game, without having to worry about actually playing a different game.

Some people just really /do/ want a 'second job' doing raids three or more times a week and dumping hundreds of hours of their life into a game.

<comment><USER10> Ok, thanks for explanation. Can I have one more question - why exactly do you disallow or don't like bots?

<comment><USER2> It actually depends on which game you are talking about, but it's true that the majority of MMO makers are very anti-bot. Undoubtedly, Blizzard is not having an issue with botting itself, they are having an issue with a tool which can be used for gold farming (see: Bittorrent). The various forms of fraud that gold farming shops use to get accounts (such as credit card fraud) result in non-trivial amounts of chargebacks; I can't name figures, but MMO companies lose enough money from fraudulent players, namely farmers, that combating them justifies the hiring of full-time fraud specialists.

Players, and probably moreso, game designers are also interested in combating farmers in order to maintain the 'purity' of their in-game economy. I guess what I'm basically saying is that gold farming is the real enemy in this battle. Players and designers could also be bothered that bots allow players to make progress in the game without actually having to put in the time to play, but this plays second fiddle to gold farming.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This isn't someone being sued for copyright infringement. It's someone being sued for participating in an limited open system in such a way that harms most others' participation in the system. The point is that the rules are what makes the game fun. This guy was ruining it for everybody and making money in the process.

Happy to see his ass banned. MMOs aren't for everyone. Plenty games are designed for casual play. qq more - you have a real job and a real social life, unlike most MMO players.

</comment><comment><USER12> While I hate the farmers and other low-lifes using the app, I can't agree with the decision.

<comment><USER13> Dont call me a low life, I got from 66-70 with this very bot. =P

Why'd I do it? Got bored watching friends raiding most nights when I could only play a few hours a week, I was estimating a few months for the last few levels — but using the bot, got to 70 within a week, and I now raid a few times a week, and having fun. I'm happy, didn't hurt the game as gold farmers do, and I already knew how to play my class before hand (so I'm not a noob). Win! :)

I can say I'm glad the bot is history, but there are a lot of people in my situation, and with an extra 10 levels being added soon (WotLK), its going to be even harder for people to catch up with their friends!

But without this one bot which Blizzard could track, gold farmers are going to develop their own bots. Gold farming could get worse! (though Blizz have tried to stop this by giving users gold easily via daily quests — but its still easier to buy! ;)

<comment><USER11> just buy a char on ebay</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Couchmoney trivia – a "Name That Film" trivia game for the lockdown - <AUTHOR> https://couchmoneytrivia.tv <comment><AUTHOR> This is a game I made so my friends and I could do something over Zoom on Saturday nights during the lockdown. It's best with Discord or Zoom for chat, but it can also be played solo or without a communication channel for the other players.

Like most of my side projects, the build started to take on a life of its own and has consumed basically all of my non-work waking hours for the past few weeks :)

It's been pretty well-tested under Chrome on Windows, iOS, and Android. There are significant known bugs under Safari and Firefox, those are next on the list.

The FAQ on the home page covers most questions I've heard from new players (you have to be logged out to see it).

It's been played by about 100 of my friends and now I'm starting to open the doors a little wider, hope some fellow film buffs here find it fun!</comment>


APFS and HFS+ Benchmarks on High Sierra - <AUTHOR> https://hk.saowen.com/a/e9c3e3a82f4000f86663ba10526d1a3d5e6e68face971ebd61a3f3f2244730fb <comment><USER2> Interesting read, but written in July last year, so things might be different now.</comment>


The world's largest airplane is up for sale for $400M - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/14/vulcan-selling-stratolaunch-worlds-largest-airplane-for-400-million.html <comment><USER2> What is it about world's biggest planes that fly only once?

I think the only full-size ornithopter only flew once, too.

Maybe there is some expectation that the Stratolaunch will fly again, someday, but it's hard to imagine for what.

<comment><USER3> The Spruce Goose ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_H-4_Hercules)) is another famous example.</comment></comment>


Series of photos of the interiors of refrigerators in homes across the US - <AUTHOR> http://markmenjivar.com/you-are-what-you-eat/statement/ <comment><USER2> Is that a snake at the top of the refrigerator in pic 7?</comment>


Science has limits - <AUTHOR> https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12 <comment><USER2> Almost everything in the list is pure emotional not logical. This could have been summed up by saying science doesn't explain illogical things like subjective points of view on morals, art, how to use knowledge. The God one is interesting because it's not emotional. Either God exist or doesn't. However, I think we just don't have sufficient knowledge, technology, and sources right know to prove it one way or the other, but if we don't blow ourselves up...

<comment><USER3> God doesn't need to exist to give essence to existence. [https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nonexistent- objects/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nonexistent-objects/)

<comment><USER2> Umm, I never said anything close to resembling that idea.

<comment><USER3> You said "Either God exist or doesn't." This isn't necessarily true.

<comment><USER2> True, and it is true.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


SignalFx launches, promises Facebook-caliber systems monitoring off the shelf - <AUTHOR> http://pando.com/2015/03/12/signalfx-exits-stealth-with-28-5m-in-backing-promises-facebook-caliber-systems-monitoring-off-the-shelf/ <comment><USER2> Ben's accompanying post is pretty good too:

[http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_past_and_future_of_systems_mana...](http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_past_and_future_of_systems_management)

</comment><comment><USER3> Looks neat!

I like the AWS integration. Cloud Watch et. al. [AWS stats] are comprehensive, but with a pretty bad UI. It also make sense to extract into a dashboard that can aggregate from many sources.

Also noticed support for Elastic Search and a few other well known suspects. Hopefully there will be more!</comment>


What we learned about HTML5 cross-platform development the hard way - <AUTHOR> https://www.titanfile.com/blog/html5-for-cross-platform-development/

<comment><USER2> This talk was given at the Communitech Mobile P2P meeting in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada on Wednesday, November 14th, 2012.</comment>


A great use for G+ Hangouts - <AUTHOR>

When Google+ finally goes public, one thing I hope stays is the Hangouts. It would be awesome too if even people who don't have (and probably don't want) a Google+ account can be involved in them.
I'm sure the smart folk over at Googleville are working on ways to make this happen and I for one am eagerly looking forward to it for one reason alone:
It will be the first mass-market way to have a face-to-face conversation with anyone in the world.
If you make video calling as easy as email, everyone will be at it!
What does this mean? Well the expected increase in social activity through this online social network is a given. But I have higher hopes.
I think this would be a great way to communicate with our customers! I envisage a time when we can see when a person is visiting our website and we can invite them to chat face-to-face.
No platform currently has the power to enable this because they are locked in to having registered users and installed applications - two big buy-in steps that put most users off!
But if Google can implement this right, we could see the next generation of ecommerce exploding in front of our faces. <comment><USER2> "I envisage a time when we can see when a person is visiting our website and we can invite them to chat face-to-face."

Sure, go ahead, invite them and see them run away :-). The thing with video chat is people simply don't want to use it, at least not a lot. Many have been pushing different forms of video chatting for so many years already. It's really not about the technology behind it, people just don't like it that much.

Sure, Hangouts are great. I think that's the best implementation of a video chat I have ever seen. Might even want to try it out. But I definitely won't be using it on a daily basis. And customer support using web cams would be a nightmare. In 5-10-15 year perhaps people will perhaps change the way they want to overact over the internet, but for now most like to hide behind their text.

So it's all nice, but 'the next generation of ecommerce' as a result of a great video chat technology? I guess you're pushing it. Big time.

Google Hangouts might be the first serious step to going beyond text-based communication. But most likely it will be the ideas made on top or around it that will bring about a real change. I think what Hangouts can do is make people actually like video chat a little.

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess only time will tell. Ultimately it's up to the consumer. But this is the first time that anyone could offer it to their customers for free without getting them to jump through hoops.

<comment><USER3> Hangouts still requires you install software.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok one little plugin... Not really a hoop. Doesn't it come bundled in chrome?

<comment><USER4> It will be bundled in Chrome, Firefox, and Opera.

<comment><USER3> I think my point stands until it is bundled in all browsers or it doesn't require an additional plugin.

Have you ever had to be sure a colleague's computer had WebEx installed before a conference call? Or planned to Skype someone but had to wait while you updated to the latest version?

Until it's bundled with your browser, these issues will constantly deter users. It's different for social. My mom will be patient if I'm 5 minutes late for our Sunday morning video chat, but it's hardly a hoop-jumping-free process.

We'll get there, but we're not there yet.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google Takes a Stand for Location Privacy, Along with Loopt - <AUTHOR> http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/03/exclusive-google-takes-stand-location-privacy-alon <comment><AUTHOR> Excerpt: "Like Loopt, Google's Latitude doesn't (currently) keep a historic log of its users' locations; both companies overwrite the old data each time you report a new location. We think that's the right move privacy-wise, and hope that between Loopt and Latitude, the we-don't-keep-historic-logs policy will become the industry standard in the friend-finding space."

They also ask: "what would Google's legal position be when a law enforcement agency tried to make it start logging a Latitude users' location as part of an investigation?"

I found the piece interesting.</comment>


Daily RSS email digest - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/raymestalez/rssdigest <comment><AUTHOR> I wrote a little python script that sends me a daily email digest of my rss subscriptions. It really helps to avoid addictive rechecking of rss and social media feeds. I think you guys might find it useful =)</comment>