Intercepting Zoom's encrypted data with BPF - aaron-santos https://confused.ai/posts/intercepting-zoom-tls-encryption-bpf-uprobes <comment><AUTHOR> _But how do we find the offsets? What values do we give to ssl_read_offset and ssl_write_offset?

[ REDACTED ]

I had a nice little section on how to find the offsets here. When I first wrote it I was convinced that publishing two addresses couldn't possibly get me sued for reverse engineering. Some of the people who read the draft of this post changed my mind about it though, and it is 2020 after all so it is not a good time to be optimistic._

So, how would you find these offsets? Anyone know?

It's probably the most interesting part of the post.

There's a "hypothetical" paragraph afterwards, but if anyone wants to actually do this with Zoom and post the results, you'd probably earn lots of cred.

In particular, the exact arguments to the objdump command would help.

<comment><USER2> It is sad they felt the need to do this. This step is not hard, but censuring it because of hypothetical legal issues speaks a lot about the state of affairs on computing.

I miss the good old times where knowledge were freely published without fear.

<comment><USER3> Do note that this is generally not something that would be a legal issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I was surprised to see hooking code like this being written in Rust. I've come to expect C sample code for purposes like these, so it's nice to see that there are actually alternatives when it comes to intercepting function calls and extracting data from a process.

<comment><USER5> Other options include bpftrace[1] or C, Python or Lua via BCC[2]

1: [https://github.com/iovisor/bpftrace](https://github.com/iovisor/bpftrace)

2: [https://github.com/iovisor/bcc](https://github.com/iovisor/bcc)

<comment><USER6> Lua is the most common language I had never heard about before dealing with BPF. It gets embedded in a surprising array of technologies.

<comment><USER7> That's most of what lua's purpose is: to be a reasonably pleasant and featureful language that is dead easy to embed in larger systems that want some kind of scripting or macros.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I have done exactly the same thing for Desktop/Android apps using Frida (modified from [https://github.com/google/ssl_logger](https://github.com/google/ssl_logger)). There are modules out there that dump SSLKEYLOG too (that can be used in Wireshark)

<comment><USER9> With IOS I've used the keylog strategy and it is very effective. IOS uses boringssl and the library calls a function to log the secret but this function never does anything normally. However, you can either trampoline this function to log the secret or modify the ssl context to add your own logger function. This is all public knowledge and you can find Frida scripts that will dump the TLS secrets.

<comment><USER10> And this can be used to defeat certificate pinning?

<comment><USER10> I just realized you would just be sniffing the data unencrypted rather than setting up any proxy or root cert, so this question doesn't make sense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is very cool. I've always wanted to do something like this. I hope to use snuffy in the future. Thanks for the great walk through!

<comment><USER12> Glad you liked it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Awesome post Alessandro! Well written and in tutorial format. Much respect! I know what I'll be playing around with this weekend.

I will be looking forward to more blog posts of yours in the future.

<comment><USER12> Thank you! Mind I only tested on latest ubuntu and fedora so feel free to DM me on twitter if you run into issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Something like this needs to be included in tcpdump or Wirshark. (tcpdump would be fitting; since it was the genesis for cBPF)

I remember patching Netty [https://github.com/netty/netty/pull/8653](https://github.com/netty/netty/pull/8653) just to get the master key in order to decrypt sessions.

Having the ability to decrypt TLS sessions like this is way simpler.

tl;dr; would love to see something like this for tshark / tcpdump

<comment><USER15> Wireshark does support TLS decryption if you provide a "key log file": [https://wiki.wireshark.org/TLS#TLS_Decryption](https://wiki.wireshark.org/TLS#TLS_Decryption)

Perhaps OP's technique could be used to generate such a file.

EDIT: I see you have already investigated such methods after looking at your github link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I am not sure how much of this technique can be used elsewhere for legitimate purposes.

In this example, except for an administrator spying on other users on a shared machine, which is kind of already an admitted risk by users on a shared machine anyway.

<comment><USER7> Looks like nextgen ad blocking to me. If you can instrument TLS connections on the client, you can identify ad content and substitute blank video frames or just 404s.

<comment><USER12> Writing a toy ad blocker is actually on my todo list :)

There's just so many things you can so. The original goal of the post was to tamper with zoom's attention tracking for example (which was a field in one of their protobuf payloads).</comment></comment></comment>


Obama Readies Revamp of NSA - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303754404579311051971481812

<comment><USER2> ...I'm guessing reforms will be something along the lines of a new NSA logo, mission statement and revamped website, while the spooks continue to lurk with impunity.</comment>


Netflix needs to grow, but it's sacrificing great original series to do so - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/12/20791602/netflix-canceled-shows-originals-tuca-bertie-oa-streaming-wars-disney <comment><USER2> Their formula for picking which shows to renew needs some work from my perspective. Shows I watched that have been cancelled = 5; Shows I'm looking forward to watching = 1. The OA was almost the last straw for me...if they don't bring back Altered Carbon I will become a former subscriber.</comment>


Google Maps - Semi Broken? - <AUTHOR>

In the past few days Google maps has been unable to recognize addresses that it used to be able to find.  Are they doing maintenance or something?  Is anyone else finding this? <comment><USER2> Two weeks ago they switched from a third-party data provider to maintaining their own data for U.S. maps and directions: [http://google- latlong.blogspot.com/2009/10/your-world-your-m...](http://google- latlong.blogspot.com/2009/10/your-world-your-map.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> If you put in 'washington' it gives you DC instead of the state. As someone from the west coast, I've always said 'DC' for the capital and Washington for the state.</comment>


Facebook: Private Equity's evil twin - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/2012/05/25/private_equitys_evil_twin/

<comment><USER2> Pinning Facebook's IPO problems on VC seems like a pretty big stretch.</comment>


A fascinating map of the world's most and least racially tolerant countries - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/ <comment><USER2> Seeing the whole US as homogeneously racially tolerant makes me... fascinated.</comment>


At Amazon's Bookstore, No Coffee but All the Data You Can Drink - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/27/opinion/sunday/at-amazons-bookstore-no-coffee-but-all-the-data-you-can-drink.html <comment><USER2> I feel like in the future there will be a few mega corps that will provide everything you need in your life through a subscription model. Any small players can't enter the market since they don't have neither the money nor the user base to gain any significant traction and if they somehow managed to get traction they'd be squeezed out of the existence (or purchased and then put out of competition) by the mega corps.

Next you'll be tagged with a microchip and every action you do, every item you purchase, every location you visit will be tracked and used to push you more "specialized" and individualized content and adverts from the said mega corps.

Regarding the books, since the amazon book store is only selling books that people read and if there are nothing but amazon book stores, people can only buy (and read) the books that they sell, which means that a book that they don't sell can't be read, which means it won't be sold and thus cannot be read etc.

These days I'm buying as much as I can from places other than Amazon.

<comment><USER3> Why stop there? Mega-corps will eventually supersede governments. When Amazon, Google, and Apple all have 10.000.000 employees, then "Waymo v. Uber" isn't just law it's a wartime skirmish! Employment will be more valuable than citizenship. Would make a nice dystopia.

<comment><USER4> Interesting, but what would happen if companies start to print their own money?

<comment><USER5> If? Video games currently have in-game currency, for which they employ real economists.

MANY companies allow you to fund a wallet of one kind or another for internal transactions.

It's also happened in the past: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > no obvious signs of corporate guilt at having driven countless independent > bookstores to oblivion

I spent decades browsing bookstores with their paltry inventory of bestsellers, occasionally resorting to ordering a book through them. I like Amazon a lot better (and the prices are far better, too). I buy a ton of books from Amazon.

I don't miss the bookstores.

<comment><USER7> I never understood why people were mourning bookstores while libraries seem such a better thing anyway.

<comment><USER8> In my experience the books I wanted to read we're often already on loan to someone and I would have to wait for them to be returned or for them to get the book from another branch. It was particularly bad with series.

I was pretty excited by the fact that I could buy my own books when I got my first job. I still miss Borders.

<comment><USER9> Borders was amazing: they even carried _conference proceedings_.

Never seen that anywhere else.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > no obvious signs of corporate guilt at having driven countless independent > bookstores to oblivion

Hmm... at one time, New York City had probably a couple of dozen full-featured daily newspapers. Does the New York Times have any "obvious signs of corporate guilt" about having driven those to oblivion?

<comment><USER11> It's doubtful the NYT would have been the main player in those newspapers' downfalls. The NYT has almost always been seen as having weak local coverage compared to papers like the Daily News and the Post.

<comment><USER12> But surely in the same way amazon is less specialized in local language books or smaller scale books written by local people than a bookstore. The same still applies

<comment><USER13> That analogy doesn't really hold. In the US, the local language is pretty much just english, and I'd be surprised if there was a trend of people in Chicago going to bookstores to buy books written by locals. Not to mention that Amazon is not really weak when it comes to books written by anyone, local or otherwise. They are all likely to be available on Amazon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> In the UK we almost lost our largest remaining bookstore chain, however they've performed a pretty miraculous turnaround. I'm sure I read a better article in the past than this: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/feb/03/balancing- the-...](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/feb/03/balancing-the-books- how-waterstones-returned-to-profit), but I can't remember where it was. Essentially it boiled down to the new CEO ditching a lot of existing agreements and systems like the bestsellers lists, and instead giving most of the control of stock to the local stores, so each store is now more likely to stock books relevant to the local area.

I've been in a number of their stores over the past year and each one has felt rather different, and I discovered quite a few interesting books I otherwise would never have come across. I hope they continue to be a viable business.

On another note, I've experienced progressively worse delivery and customer service from Amazon over the past two years, causing me to cancel my Prime subscription (which I had from launch) and to stop ordering from them altogether. They need to ditch their crap courier service in the UK.

</comment><comment><USER15> I want a discovery service that shows me the things "most different (but also quality)" from the things I've already seen. It seems like this should be doable.

<comment><USER16> That's trivial to do without using any machine learning.

Go to Goodreads/Librarything, choose a subject/genre you never read and choose the 6th highest rated book (to avoid spam/flash popularity problems)

Personally I'm pretty doubtful this method will give you something you actually want to read though.

<comment><USER17> > Personally I'm pretty doubtful this method will give you something you > actually want to read though.

I've read about 20 books per year for the last three years. I buy most of them through Amazon and always mark them as read on Goodreads in order to get better recommendations.

And yet, I can't remember a single book that I have read exclusively based on showing up as recommended on Goodreads/Amazon. It's usually a word of mouth, some researching, and a couple of classics I've never gotten around to from time to time (currently finishing Fahrenheit 451 for example).

At best, the recommendations end up on my to-read list, usually forgotten, and disappear from there too when I do a cleaning of my to-read list because it got cluttered.

<comment><USER18> In contrast to your experience, I've read over 150 books in the past 2 years and around 50 of them have come from Goodreads/Amazon recommendations.

I assume it depends on the genres, especially with something like Goodreads. I mainly only read a single genre so it must be fairly easy for them to recommend me books.

<comment><USER17> Yup, I tend to read a lot of genres, going from highly technical ones, to the fiction and science fiction, all the way down to a couple of YA books when I need something really light just to pass my time.

To make the matter even more complicated, I sometimes read books from my own region, not translated into English (which, of course, makes them unavailable on Amazon), so the algorithm would have to count those ones into recommendations too.

I don't think that anyone is investing a lot of effort in solving this gigantic problem. Amazon just wants to sell you more books, it doesn't matter if you read them or not. I don't think that Goodreads has enough of the capacity to make their recommendations actually work for someone as complex as me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I visited the Amazon Bookstore in Columbus Circle when it opened. It was evident that with its vast computing and data facilities, Amazon can solve economic allocation problems with an accuracy and precision beyond the wildest dreams of the planners of the command economy of the former Soviet Union.

</comment><comment><USER20> > no obvious signs of corporate guilt at having driven countless independent > bookstores to oblivion

[http://bookweb.org/for-the-record](http://bookweb.org/for-the-record)

Barnes and Noble got driven out of business because they tried to be Amazon with store space. Right now it's hard to improve on Amazon's supply chain.

Independent bookstores that add value (carefully curated books, signing events, an educated staff) are doing well. They just have to put effort into it so they can make money.

This is not a case of predatory licensing, it's about adding value. Independent bookstores that are just a crappy offline version of Amazon with no differentiation are getting their lunches eaten, since they just don't add any value.

<comment><USER21> > Barnes and Noble got driven out of business

The one down the road still seems to be open and not having a liquidation sale. Maybe you're thinking of B. Dalton Bookseller or Waldenbooks?

<comment><USER22> He's thinking of borders

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm not a fan of Amazon, but for books it is unmatched. I've been in local bookstores and checked reviews on amazon before buying in the store. I have found a local store where its nice to ask for advice, but for computer books especially that isn't any help.

Has anyone found good online alternatives to Amazon for books? Best I've found is jet.com which resells B&N at a lower price subsidized by Walmart - nice, but selection isn't huge. Abebooks is good but is owned by Amazon.

<comment><USER24> There's [https://thriftbooks.com](https://thriftbooks.com)

<comment><USER25> I'm a big fan of [https://strandbooks.com](https://strandbooks.com)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I sometime have Old timers nostalgia and think about all the video store owners, postal staff who delivered telegrams, phone switch operators, dusty mom and pop stores, ceiling fan companies and encyclopedia sellers who have been put out of business by rampant corporate greed of Netflix, Gmails, Skypes and Amazons of the new age. At least Coal Jobs are coming back. Yipee.

<comment><USER27> Greed? Consumers put those people out of business by opting for convenience and value (at least in the short term).

No one forced people to stop shopping at a mom and pop store, but why the hell would I when I can look up exactly what I want, research it in detail and buy it in less time than it takes for me to get the car down the block.

<comment><USER22> He's being sarcastic. But no one does seem to consider how much this has gutted local economies</comment></comment></comment>


Fear, Groupthink Drove Unnecessary Global Lockdowns – RealClearPolitics - <AUTHOR> https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/05/21/how_fear_groupthink_drove_unnecessary_global_lockdowns_143253.html <comment><USER2> Easy to say 3 months later.

Can't wait for these same folks to ask us to roll the dice next time.

</comment><comment><USER3> The science says we are still not in the clear, but I guess that doesn't mean much appearently.</comment>


Fighting Corruption in Brazil with Machine Learning - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/datasciencebr/serenata-de-amor/blob/master/README-en.md <comment><USER2> I was a bit disappointed by this because it feels more like people trying to get press and make a name for themselves than an actual serious endeavor at digging through open government data with ML. The first thing you see in the README is links to numerous social media profiles, followed by a Kickstarter link and a BTC address. Zero technical info. Looking into the Kickstarter (well, Catarse, the Brazilian copycat), apparently there's a young company behind this - "Data Science Brigade". So I guess this is partly a publicity stunt.

I'm sorry, but if you guys are serious about building this _open_ you should make it entirely technical and keep any press/social media/financial bullshit out of it. Entirely separated. In addition, if the project is sponsored by a company, make that clear in a notice somewhere. It just doesn't feel honest to do it any other way. I'm not going to contribute with time or money to a project that claims to be about "fighting corruption" but might have all sorts of unknown interests behind it. I'd be pleased to contribute otherwise.

<comment><USER3> If they are serious, they might want to do it full time. Or even hire people. They'll require funding. Even recruiting people to work on OSS requires marketing of sorts. You gotta convince people the project is cool, but that it's on a good trajectory. And finally, after all this, you want people talking/following so you can push your results out.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with self promotion and often it can be critical.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've thought about this a lot for India as well. To be realistic we would need unprecedented levels of transparency to get the amount of data needed to get usable results. With the amount of nepotism around even constructing a simple network of party heads of each state and related companies and contracts awarded for public work would be valuable.

At this stage we really should think of it more in terms of _documenting_ corruption rather than _stopping_ corruption. When (and if) the system is ready to change the data would be extremely useful to see why things are happening the way they are and work out if solutions would just move the corruption-bottleneck rather than eliminate it.

<comment><USER5> > At this stage we really should think of it more in terms of documenting > corruption rather than stopping corruption.

This is a very good point; often I see people block this sort of discussion by asking "Well, what are you gonna do about it??" Taking this point of view sidesteps that question.

<comment><USER6> Tell them that documenting will allow better history be recorded. Then you can redirect the argument of "is history as a subject any useful" to external endpoint.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is the same as "fighting massive surveillance with X", the root of the problem is how the system works. These kind of problems cannot be solved by anything but a massive change in the status quo. As long as corrupt politicians are in power they cannot care less for evidence of potential wrongdoings. In Mexico a renowned writer once said about that: "when the impunity is absolute the appearances are for losers"

<comment><USER8> > As long as corrupt politicians are in power

There is no way to filter the good politicians from the bad, when interests are at stake. If you want to lessen corruption, then you need to balance the distribution of power and encourage competition.

<comment><USER9> I used to think your idea could be a solution but is too slow and also there is an "infinite" input of new corrupt politicians. Doing some numbers will render that trying to vote them out every 4 years doesn't sound like a win. Since we need defence against self-corruption, the source of all evil, the only I can think of is the Non-Aggression Principle and enforce respect for private property [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non- aggression_principle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The maze of shell companies and indirect associations would make it relatively easily to bypass automated scrutiny. But it's an interesting idea I've thought a lot about.

It would be great to automatically analyze things such as government contracts and the politicians who were involved in getting it voted in. But you'd need a data source of the social network graphs of those who are behind organizations - which could be a requirement for bidding on government contracts. Anyone who doesn't submit an accurate network of human contacts who will ultimately make financial gain from a contract will be barred from all future contracts.

That would serve as an excellent deterrent for politicians who plan to use their position of power for personal gain and promote the usage of companies who actually deserve to be getting contracts (improving the quality of government output).

<comment><USER11> To get conviction or sanctions, one generally needs something definite. But rules-of-thumb and appearances are useful as a way to know where to begin investigating.

However, the problem with a public system of rules of thumb is that it can be used by the wrong-doers to hide themselves.

The US bank system scans the cash activity of businesses to spot money laundering and other activity. If a money launder had the rules for what transaction pattern was going to be red-flagged, they could structure their transactions pattern to not be flagged while continuing to launder money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Doomed to fail. There won't be enough non-corruption data for discrimination.

<comment><USER13> This. Machine learning and datascience are only as good as the quality of the data fed into the machine.

Although the brazilian federal police has been working nonstop, we'd be hardpressed to expect a .csv journaling political shenanigans.

This project has my support nonetheless :)

<comment><USER14> This scene from Tropa de Elite always makes me laugh and cry (paraphrased)...

\---

Honest Policeman: I've been doing the stats, and with the additional bodies found in our district today...

Police Captain to Dishonest Policeman: What do you mean, bodies in our district?! I thought I told you to take care of them.

Dishonest Policeman: I swear I moved the bodies to the neighboring district like you said, boss. Those bastards must have moved them back!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> You can see a lot of things in this repository, except Machine Learning. Why is this in front-page ?

<comment><USER16> > You can see a lot of things in this repository, except Machine Learning. Why > is this in front-page ?

Perhaps because the majority of HN readers have no concrete understanding of what machine learning is, yet they upvote most ML stories in pursuit of comprehension.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> What is the project about?

Yeah, the read-me talks about machine learning, and fighting corruption, but it makes no effort to tell how one would help the other.

<comment><USER18> This seems to explain the project in much greater detail:

[https://www.catarse.me/serenata](https://www.catarse.me/serenata) (Portuguese only)

Curiously, Google Translate doesn't seem to understand this page's content and fails to translate it here.

<comment><USER19> The idea seems to be fighting a specific kind of corruption. Congressmen have an office budget and many use invalid or suspicious receipts to justify expenses. The idea is to use bots to analyze and red flag suspicious receipts and then use evidence as proof in justice.

<comment><USER20> This seems to be an almost entirely pointless endeavor. The problem with corruption isn't Billy expensing $5,000 of wine, and a visit to the strip club.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've lived in both US and Brazil and I would say that the level of corruption is more or less the same no matter where one lives in the world, but in Brazil even the street cleaner knows about the political scandals while in the US it's all smoke & mirrors, to the point that only the higher-ups are in on it.

Brazil: "I know about it but what can I do to change it? Let's focus on some talking point instead."

US: "I don't really know about any scandals so let's focus on some talking point."

The problem also isn't exactly political but social, as in what might be called "small/everyday corruption" (running a red light, cutting in line, not mentioning the cashier just gave you more change than you deserved, and a million other things). There's no ML for that, only education [1].

As an aside: when one lives in Brazil (or any country, really), "when in Rome..." seems to apply, at least in some cases. At one point, I lived in the slums and was using internet that was very likely from a stolen connection (known as a "gato", or in this case, "gatonet"), but this was what everyone had and there was nothing else on offer. I also used types of public transportation that were very efficient for me but, afaik, technically illegal yet no one was really policing it. To give one more Brazil example, at a movie theater, I once used a recently expired student card of mine to get half- price. With these types of things taken into consideration, I'd say that the US (my country) is like concrete while Brazil is like water. To each, their own. There's good and bad aspects about both.

1 - In Brazil, there's sometimes a mix-up in the usage of the terms education (educação), which includes concepts of right vs wrong and manners, and schooling (escolaridade), thus in my mention of education I mean to include both senses.

</comment><comment> guard-of-terra It's weird that we don't have a profile page for every official on a web site, detailing this official's performance, and for their supervisor, also a list of spendings overseen by this official and a button 'open a case for persecution'.

I mean, seriously? We have such things in commercial enterprises don't we?

</comment><comment><USER22> This use case makes clear the need for what darpa.mil is calling "Explainable AI". (Not that they invented the concept!)

<comment><USER23> The definition of "intelligence" in "AI" will probably always have an implicit clause saying if it calls the emperor naked, it can't be intelligent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> > The idea of automating the analysis of public accounts is unprecedented: > engaging the population on training our platform in the analysis and audit.

I was expecting something live.

<comment><USER25> To be fair, this is an ambitious goal, and the project is not that old.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Big Data and Machine Learning can also help cure cancer.</comment>


Ask HN: Are you developing anything for Windows mobile phone 7? - <AUTHOR> Just curious if anyone here is doing any work for Windows mobile app?. Just read on TC that they reached 50K published apps mark.<p>http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/27/windows-phone-marketplace-hits-50000-published-apps/ <comment><USER2> Yes, we (i.e., the YouVersion team) have been actively developing and releasing Windows Phone 7 versions of our app for just over a year as of now.

While I'm not authorized to reveal the percentage of our approximately 36 million unique installs (i.e., installs on unique devices) that can be attributed to Windows Phone devices, I can say that we're continuing to invest in the ongoing development of our Windows Phone app.

Our soon to be released, next version of the Windows Phon app will feature a number of enhancements related to features made available in the recent Mango update (i.e. Windows Phone 7.5).

For more information on our Windows Phone app, including screenshots and comparisons to our apps for other platforms (e.g., iOS, Android, Blackberry, WebOS, etc.), please refer to the following link:

<http://www.youversion.com/mobile/wp>

</comment><comment><USER3> It must be the only mobile platform I havent found time to write anything for personally (this year managed to get apps in the relevant stores for iOS, Android, WebOS, Meego and Symbian)

I do really like the look of the Lumia and will always have a soft spot for Nokia, having to use Windows for the development OS is the large mental barrier that has caused me not to have a dabble, as it feels, most likely wrongly that it will take a while to get into.

On this respect I am selfishly glad Microsoft decided to hamper it by calling it "Windows Phone" which I am sure the man in the street has a negative view off compared to the likes of the non Windows branded Microsoft products like Xbox

<comment><USER4> Slight aside: What's the best way to market apps? Do you have a workflow setup?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Yes, we (RedLaser) just launched a WP7 app last week. [http://www.windowsphone.com/en- US/apps/8fbeb777-a17c-4afd-b8...](http://www.windowsphone.com/en- US/apps/8fbeb777-a17c-4afd-b880-deac88ed86ca)

<comment><USER6> Interesting. Didn't know that, downloading now. As an aside, consider submitting it to sites like <http://www.wmpoweruser.com> and <http://wpcentral.com> for more exposure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have published several free games with ads for WP7. I am currently a student and making enough to cover my rent, and help me pay my tuition. My most popular game: [http://www.windowsphone.com/en- us/apps/24139b6e-e8a6-4c87-80...](http://www.windowsphone.com/en- us/apps/24139b6e-e8a6-4c87-80f9-dd8dd40fc454)

<comment><USER8> from the screenshots, the graphics look good. do you make the graphics too?

<comment><USER7> Thanks- I made the graphics myself. I am not a graphic artist or anything, but can get around Photoshop/Illustrator enough to create graphics for a simple game.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I plan to write one app for it next year. I got a notification from Nokia about a free Lumia 800 for registered developers and I jumped on it. If it ever ships, I'm going to put the time in and learn it.

It doesn't sound like anyone is making fuck-you money on the Windows Phone 7 app store, so I'm just looking at this as a learning exercise.

<comment><USER10> Free Lumina for registered devs? I'm sure there's a few people here, myself included, that would appreciate more info on that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think referring to the technology as "Windows Phone 7" or "WP7" will probably generate better responses.

And I have one in the works, yes.

<comment><USER12> Yeah, Microsoft is trying to distance itself from Windows Mobile, so I cringe when people refer to it as Windows Mobile 7. WP7 doesn't deserve that kind of reputation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Over the past year, I've made about $2400 from the sale of three different apps. SkyView7, Lighter and Revolver (with over half coming from skyview).

Nothing earth shattering, but has help buy my tech toys :)

</comment><comment><USER14> Ported my top selling iPhone and android app to wp7 pretty recently. Can't say sales are stellar but I think you can never count Microsoft out. The new Nokia phones look very good.

</comment><comment><USER15> I started developing apps the first month it was possible. I initially decided to test the waters by cloning apps which were very popular on iPhone and Android.

I spent a month creating clones of Koi Pond, Fart App, Hipstamatic, and acoustic guitar. In something like 9 months I've sold ~1000 apps. I've made about enough money to pay for the phone and for a year of publishing access to the marketplace.

<http://www.mobilematiq.com/>

</comment><comment><USER16> If the Lumia comes to Canada soon, I'd definitely get on it. I really enjoy C# as a language and wouldn't mind trying my hand at developing apps for WP7.

Love how Mango looks as well.

</comment><comment><USER17> I've built quite a few WP7 apps now, some for clients, some for fun.

It's really a shame that the phone hasn't had even decent sales numbers as IMHO it has the best developer experience (yeah I know, end users don't care about the dev experience :))

</comment><comment><USER18> Already published an app, with over 3 figure sales.

[http://www.bitsabound.com/GlutenFreeRecipes-Windows- Phone-7....](http://www.bitsabound.com/GlutenFreeRecipes-Windows-Phone-7.html)

<comment><USER19> Nice. As a gluten intolerant person this is awesome. However, I don't have a WP7 yet to buy this. Waiting for the next version of Nokia's phone next year.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Waiting for WP8 - Windows 8 has WinJS, whereas WP7 is still Silverlight based. Hopefully they'll release something similar for Windows phone in future. If not, I won't bother.

</comment><comment><USER21> Nope. We've tried a few in the past and they've just done NOTHING so we're not going back. We have much more success on android and apple even with the increased competition.

<comment><USER12> Are they quality, well marketed apps? We on WP7 are somewhat app-starved compared to other platforms, most people I know on WP7 download apps left and right as long as they know the app exists. Free versions with ads alongside a premium version without ads seem to do very well, and gain money no matter what.

A big problem I've had is finding an app exists and being surprised that it exists. If it doesn't get advertised, there's no way to know it's there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wrote mogade.com which is a free leaderboard/achievement system (much like scoreloop and all them) primarily focused on windows phone developers. At some point, someone at MS generated a list of the 50 most used 3rd party libraries in all WP-app submissions and mogade was somewhere in there (30s or 40s iirc).

For nothing more than a side project, I'd call it pretty successful...but the little insight it's given me into the WP world is that the platform really isn't doing well.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm on some little project for WP7 too. I think that more developers will adopt WP7 when they see it has a clear future. At the moment it's a bit cloudy, we still don't know if it will continue growing or not.

Anyways, being the first on WP7 is risky but can be very profitable. Kik Messenger grew a lot thanks to their WP7 app (the article is in TC, can't search for it now). There are few apps so there is less competition and you can get a lot of new users.

<comment><USER7> Here is the mentioned Techcrunch article: [http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/30/why-kik-loves-windows- phone...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/30/why-kik-loves-windows- phone-7-spoiler-it-boosts-android-and-ios-user-growth/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> ive created 2 simple 2D games and they give me some nice profit so im working on something 3D now. im using power of mogade :) @latch - your service is great -> <http://wp7-games.com>

</comment><comment><USER25> I am working on Infinite Flight. It's a civilian flight simulator much like FSX, Flight Unlimited and Pro Pilot. We're currently porting to iOS though, but using Mono Touch and MonoGame, so the code base is mostly the same.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've been with Windows Phone 7 from day 1 and have made a few smallish projects.

</comment><comment><USER27> I wrote an app to read The Oatmeal on my phone. It has ads but I haven't really made any money. I don't really care though, since I just wanted to read The Oatmeal on my phone =)

</comment><comment><USER28> What language/SDKs one has to use in order to write windows 7 apps? Is the overall experience different from iOS/Android app developing? How do one test the apps?

<comment><AUTHOR> You have to use .Net platform with C# or VB.Net

<comment><USER28> Using the same Visual Studio to code desktop programs? Or are there some plug- ins for the mobile development?

<comment><USER29> Visual Studio Express is a free version Microsoft makes available so it isn't like you have to buy Visual Studio. Here's a good tutorial on writing a quick Windows Phone 7 app using VS Express: [http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/03/18/building-a...](http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2010/03/18/building- a-windows-phone-7-twitter-application-using-silverlight.aspx)

<comment><USER28> What is the difference between free and paid version of VS? My internet speed/prices doesnt allow me to watch videos online, or download such big software as VS, but I will soon go back to uni in Singapore, so I am starting to think what should I do there in order to earn some cash...

<comment><USER30> The Express versions are not designed for multilanguage projects. For example, in the paid versions of VS, you can add C# and C++ projects to the same solution. You cannot add a C++ project to a Visual C# Express solution.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I have a small project in the works, specifically for a service that has existing client apps on iOS and Android, but is lacking a WP7 client.

</comment><comment><USER32> Yes. We have had a long-running relationship with Nokia, and apps for Wp7 are part of the deliverables.</comment>


Hartmann Pipeline - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartmann_pipeline

<comment><USER2> Interesting. The article links to this python project that implements the idea: [https://code.google.com/p/python- pipelines/](https://code.google.com/p/python-pipelines/)

Now one problem would be to figure out which stage of the pipeline failed (i sometimes have this problem with normal pipes)</comment>


Show HN: 1984 - <AUTHOR> https://bubbl.in/cover/nineteen-eighty-four-by-george-orwell <comment><USER2> The css3 3d-transform is pretty damn cool, honestly! And the effects when opening the book remind me of issuu, but it feels really nice and clean to me.

I guess I'd read on if I had the time right now - might try it from my phone later on.</comment>


EU Commission presents draft directive to ban some plastic waste - <AUTHOR> http://www.dw.com/en/eu-commission-plans-ban-on-plastic-waste/a-43949554 <comment><USER3> I want to put 2D barcodes on trash-to-be. Then when you find it in nature you should be able to trace it to when and where it was purchased. If this is one of those 10% of users causing 90% of the problems - type situations this would be an effective strategy to hold trashy people accountable.

<comment><USER4> You don't even need to go that far, somebody has already studied where the garbage comes from: [https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness- resources/blogs...](https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness- resources/blogs/ocean-plastic-rivers)

Summary: China and India.

We can and should curb our plastic use in the West, but there are 2 billion+ people on the other side of the world that don't give a flying fuck. (Yeah yeah, we polluted when we were developing too. But we barely had 100 million people when that was happening. And no plastics)

<comment><USER5> One of the most powerful ways to lead is by example. If we can do the hard work of figuring out how to get sustainability right, it will be easier to help everyone else get on board.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > Curbing the use of plastic cups for beverages

I wonder what this will mean for events & festivals. E.g. Amsterdam has made it a policy that big events (including normal bars when the event is going on) must issue plastic cups to curb broken class everywhere. Will we have to go back to glass, or drink our beer out of paper cups?

> as well as plastic food containers, such as the ones used for take-away.

I'm open to this, it sucks to have to throw so much crap away after ordering take-away, but I haven't seen a container yet that would be suitable for e.g. 80 degree centigrade soups, stews etc. What are the alternatives that are cheap enough for disposable take-away use?

> Producers of fishing gear — which accounts for 27 percent of beach litter — > will be required to cover the costs of waste collection in ports.

I'm worried about how making manufacturers pay for something like this will produce unintended externalities. I can also buy thin plastic lines that _wink wink_ totally aren't intended for fishing. Won't it be trivial to avoid these taxes?

> Each member state should use a deposit system or other measure in order to > collect 90 percent of plastic bottles used in their country by 2025.

I wouldn't mind such a system where you e.g. get 1 EUR back for each bottle, but it's going to have to be something like that. The current deposit fees on plastic bottles are too low, once you're earning enough money it doesn't make any financial sense to return them.

<comment><USER7> At most festivals in Switzerland, you have a single kind of reusable plastic cup, for which you pay a deposit of a few Euro. You can then hand it back at any venue part of the festival and get the deposit back. Of course it requires some dishwashing facilities, but it seems to work very well, everyone is used to it, and it avoids massive heaps of garbage.

<comment><USER6> We have these in Amsterdam too. I'll buy a beer with one of these, then by the time I'm ready to leave the lines are so long that I think "fuck it" and throw it in my bike saddlebag thinking I'll bring it back next year. It's not worth it to stand 15 minutes in a line to get 2 EUR back.

But of course I forget about it and just buy a new one at the same festival next year, and each festival will only accept their own branded cups.

So now I have a pile of these things sitting in my shed, there really needs to be some ISO standard for these plastic pints and it be made illegal to not accept ones from other festivals. I now have like 20 EUR worth of otherwise worthless plastic crap I can't exchange or sell except once a year at specific locations.

<comment><USER8> They're not branded with custom design for the event? Seems like something you could easily sell if it were. Either way, I like your idea about a standard, similar to TSA Approved beverage containers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's pretty insane that 90% of the plastic dumped into the ocean comes from 10 rivers (including many famous ones)[0]. Two are in Africa (the Nile and the Niger) while the other eight are in Asia (the Ganges, Indus, Yellow, Yangtze, Haihe, Pearl, Mekong and Amur).

What were once historically prominent rivers that greatly contributed to agriculture and civilization are now disgusting cesspools of trash and pollution.

[0] [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the- plas...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic- tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/)

</comment><comment><USER10> This seems a little too "signal, not help" to me. ~90% of plastic in the ocean comes from 10 rivers [0] of which 8 are in Asia and two in Africa - <USER2> reducing the use of plastic in Europe won't have any global impact and will probably have a variety of unintended consequences. But plastic in the oceans is a problem and so we must be seen to be doing something...

0: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the- plas...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic- tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/)

</comment><comment><USER11> It's important to consider that people with some disabilities rely on plastic straws to be able to drink:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england- derbyshire-43879489...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england- derbyshire-43879489/plastic-straws-call-for-government-to-rethink-policy)

Plastic straws and polystyrene plates are also common materials for arts and crafts.

Whilst pollution is certainly an issue that must be tackled, banning disposable plastic products does have its drawbacks. I'm not saying a ban should not occur, but its implications should be considered.

<comment><USER12> s/plastic straws/straws/ ... there's nothing to prevent you from using paper, waxed paper, or reusable metal drinking straws except a price increase.

<comment><USER11> As was said in the video, ordinary paper disintegrates and metal straws can be dangerous. Waxed paper straws could work, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Very happy about the EU plastic ban lets hope it gets passed. Plastic waste which contains BPA bisphenol which is a weak estrogen and ends up in the oceans. Fish eat the plastic waste, humans eat the fish and becomes infertile.

Plates can be made of paper, also cups can be made of paper.

Banning plastic makes it easy to avoid plastic waste in the oceans.

I hope we also ban all food packaging since a lot of that ends up in the ocean and there is no need for plastic food packaging.

Bisphenol A of plastic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A)

</comment><comment><USER14> EC press release : [http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_IP-18-3927_en.htm](http://europa.eu/rapid/press- release_IP-18-3927_en.htm)

</comment><comment><USER15> It's worth noting that I've seen poor families in France reusing plastic forks and knives. Like always, this kind of policy hurts the poor a lot more.

<comment><USER16> Environmental policy is probably the main factor that has driven a wedge between progressives/liberals and the working class. Nearly all environmental regulations are regressive when considered as taxes. The rich can afford to pay more for cleaner energy, durable goods, recycling, and so on. The poor cannot.

I am not saying that either concern is invalid. Environmental concerns are real. I am simply pointing out a political problem that needs to be solved.

<comment><USER17> Environmental collapse also disproportionately hurts the poor. When a drought strikes, they're the first to starve. At least the pain inflicted by regulations can be mitigated, while collapse leads to something like Libya.

<comment><USER16> I was not arguing otherwise. Whenever I bring up issues like this I get a lot of "shoot the messenger."

My point was not that environmental concerns are wrong but that they do tend to decrease the economic well being of poor and middle class people more _right now_ vs. the status quo. That in turn tends to anger these classes of people _right now_ , causing them to vote for people like Donald Trump. Trump, a super-hard-right Republican, won largely because of working class traditionally progressive economic concerns.

The poor also cannot afford the luxury of thinking about the future. When you are poor your primary concern is getting out of poverty right f'ing now. Screw the future. The rich on the other hand can sacrifice for the future because they have abundance.

Try some grinding poverty and come back and tell me how much you care about what happens in 100 years. Now try some grinding poverty with children. Tell me how much you care about the great Pacific garbage patch after you watch your kids suffer a bit.

This is why I think what I call "abstinence based" environmental policies are doomed. I draw a deliberate analogy with right-wing abstinence-based sex-ed, which also fails pretty reliably. Abstinence based environmental policy is any attempt to solve environmental problems by preaching and shaming the poor and middle class into reducing consumption for the sake of some future ideal that might as well be heaven-and-hell as far as they are concerned here and now.

The only way we will create a world where we care about the future is to elevate as many people as possible out of poverty. This means we must build systems that create abundance now and try to figure out how to do so as sustainably as possible. If people can't afford the luxury of caring about the future, nothing serious will ever be done about massive problems like climate change.

<comment><USER17> _Try some grinding poverty and come back and tell me how much you care about what happens in 100 years. Now try some grinding poverty with children. Tell me how much you care about the great Pacific garbage patch after you watch your kids suffer a bit._

That's a strong argument for ignoring the desperately poor where long term survival is concerned, is that really the argument you meant to make?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17167261](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17167261)</comment>


Affinity Designer 1.5 out now with new features for UI designers - <AUTHOR> https://affinity.serif.com/ui-design-software/ <comment><USER2> I didn't have time yet to use it properly, but I bought a license last year for this and Photo. Looks amazing! Great work!</comment>


All free photos from Unsplash and Co on one site - <AUTHOR> http://pexels.com

<comment><USER2> Thanks for posting it. It is such a difference when one sees hand-picked photos, rather than photos uploaded randomly by users. Bookmarked it, to have a closer look afterwards.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is quite good.</comment>


Edward Snowden Wants You To Ditch Dropbox - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-dropbox-2014-7

<comment><USER2> Please, Dropbox go bankrupt so our favorite benevolent dictator for life can go work at a cooler place :)

</comment><comment><USER3> You should ditch DropBox anyway, after they preemptively screwed over Boxopus:

[https://github.com/duncan-bayne/duncan- bayne.github.com/wiki...](https://github.com/duncan-bayne/duncan- bayne.github.com/wiki/Letter-to-Dropbox-re.-Boxopus)</comment>


Definition of "Take" - <AUTHOR> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/take <comment><AUTHOR> I thought it was really interesting how such a common word has many various meanings. It's a simple word to those who know it, but I can imagine it being very complex to those who have to learn it.</comment>


Apple Maps thinks the Ferry Building in SF is six miles inland - <AUTHOR> I recently tried to meet a friend at the Ferry Building at the Embarcadero in SF. The address
 is:
One San Francisco Bay Trail, San Francisco, CA 94111
When I texted that exact string to an iphone user, it turned it into an Apple Maps link. Tapping on the link sent her to a location more than six miles away.
I'd heard Apple maps had some issues but this seems ridiculous. Is this a common occurrence? <comment><USER2> I just looked this up, and with an address like "One", I'd expect it to be at one end "San Francisco Bay Trail". But that road extends quite a bit further in both directions.

I think the problem is because "One" is a vanity address? I know that fire departments have been griping about vanity addresses for as long as I remember (there was a news report about it some 30-odd years ago, that stick in my mind).

<comment><USER3> The problem actually seems to be that "One San Francisco Bay Trail" is not the address of the building. Only Google Maps shows that address. So, ironically, what the OP thinks is an Apple Maps issue may actually be a Google Maps issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Did you report the error? I've done this several times and they do eventually fix it.

Not justifying the mess that Apple Maps is just offering a path forward.

</comment><comment><USER5> Where did you get that address from? Only google maps seems to think that's the address

<comment><USER6> Google does think that's the address but the Ferry Building's own site uses One Ferry Building.

<comment><USER2> Ah, so it is a vanity address (at least "One Ferry Building" is a vanity address). Here's an article from back in the 80's about the practice, and the problems they cause: [http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/22/realestate/how- builders-in...](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/22/realestate/how-builders- invent-vanity-addresses.html)

<comment><USER3> Right, but the address is "One Ferry Building" which works fine on Apple Maps. Not "One San Francisco Bay Trail", which only appears on Google Maps. So the problem seems not to be the vanity address per se, but possibly the way that Google has accidentally combined part of the vanity address with the "street" that it thinks the building is on.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I literally just typed in "Ferry Building" on Apple Maps and it took me to the correct location. Also One Ferry Building San Francisco, CA 94111 the correct address listed on their own website took me to the right place.

</comment><comment><USER8> As others have already said, this is completely incorrect.

I texted this exact string to myself, clicked on it, and it put me at the ferry building. The address in question is a problem in Google Maps, _not_ Apple Maps.</comment>


Cisco Removes Undocumented Root Password from Bandwidth Monitoring Software - <AUTHOR> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/cisco-removes-undocumented-root-password-from-bandwidth-monitoring-software/ <comment><AUTHOR> No comments, huh ? Nobody uses Cisco these days ? :)

<comment><USER2> You posted this article at midnight (East Coast, USA) / 4:00AM (London)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, good point, I'm down under :))</comment></comment></comment>


The password reset experience - <AUTHOR> http://blog.objectivedigital.com/40384541 <comment><USER2> Pretty good and thorough article. It's a relatively straightforward issue, and yet there are so many different solutions out there...

</comment><comment><USER3> Nice, but I expected more discussion of the solution, rather than just discussing the problem.

<comment><USER4> That's coming - stay tuned. Here's the next instalment <http://ow.ly/3LUc2></comment></comment>


Find Photos For Your Blog In Three Easy Steps - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/11/05/wylio/

<comment><USER2> _"... Wylio founder Dan Evans tells TechCrunch that the startup plans on adding more features like customizing the color of the Flickr photo credits, tracking photo use as well as building the option for user accounts in near future. ..."_

I've specifically chosen a license to try and block companies like this.

 _"... We may use third-party advertising companies to serve ads when you visit our website ..."_ ~ <http://wylio.com/legal.html#tos>

Does the Creative Commons by-nc-nd preclude companies using images in this manner?

<comment><USER3> As you can probably guess, I'm on the Wylio team. Since we're not sure about that aspect of the CC license yet either, we recently changed Wylio's search parameters to exclude the non-commercial CC licensed photos.

We are very concerned with doing things properly and want to make sure we're operating within both the letter and spirit of CC licenses and copyright law.

Thanks for voicing your concerns, I hope this response is helpful!

<comment><USER2> _"... Since we're not sure about that aspect of the CC license yet either, we recently changed Wylio's search parameters to exclude the non-commercial CC licensed photos. ..."_

Thanks Dan.

 _"... As you can probably guess, I'm on the Wylio team. Since we're not sure about that aspect of the CC license yet either, we recently changed Wylio's search parameters to exclude the non-commercial CC licensed photos. We are very concerned with doing things properly and want to make sure we're operating within both the letter and spirit of CC licenses and copyright law. Thanks for voicing your concerns, I hope this response is helpful! ..."_

It is, you're going down the right path. Regs PR

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Don't know the legalities but it sure is convenient. Is there a photo processor service like this for one's own photos?

<comment><USER3> Stay tuned.</comment></comment>


Sachin Agarwal: My Memories of Apple - <AUTHOR> http://sachin.posterous.com/apple-memories

<comment><USER2> "To pay off my college loans and car loan, I bought Macs from the bookstore and sold them on eBay. This consumed my life for about 3 weeks."

So you're the reason why they put the limits on education purchases.

Dick move.

<comment><USER3> Well (hopefully), now he'll be remembered as "the guy that ruined education discounts so he could buy an audi and have a free education"... Talk about over-privileged...

<comment><USER4> Better than being the guy who ruined education discounts to serve his meth habit.

Are education discounts ruined now? I haven't been in a college store in a while.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > I remember waking up one morning to find a strange man setting up a Mac LC > II in my room. I don't know who he was or why we chose to buy an Apple > computer, but on that day, history was made

So who was this guy? and, history being made? really? When I think about historic moments I think about the Berlin Wall, September 11, or the Japanese delegation boarding the USS Missouri in Tokyo Harbor to sign the surrender of Japan. I definitely don't associate it with some guy getting his first Mac

<comment><USER6> a post about apple includes my memories about apple. why the hate?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Awesome so he idealizes a dude who parks in Handicapped parking (without a number plate).

What kind of world do we live in?

<comment><USER8> I've read that there a quite a lot of handicapped people that are against these signs, and separation.

<comment><USER7> That justify for anyone to behave the way Steve did.

Down Voting? Damn Fan Boyism.</comment></comment></comment>


How many megapixels do you need? - <AUTHOR> http://connect.dpreview.com/post/1313669123/how-many-megapixels

<comment><USER2> I want 5,000 x 5,000 images because eventually I intend to view and edit the photos on a real computer like my laptop or desktop.

Why would anyone qualify the necessity of a hiven resolution, based on the practicality of its usefulness on the phone that takes the picture?

Having larger resolutions provides leniency for poor camera work, so that you can crop, but still have good resolution in the cropped image.

<comment><AUTHOR> Said it true.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The title of this submission is misleading, as it's only talking about mobile cameras.

With mobile cameras, it's not just the issue of how many pixels our sensor's got, but also the size of those on the wafer itself. The bigger, the better (better illumination etc.).

Given the bad lens characteristics of mobile phones, sure, the bigger the better. (As downer98 said: easier to crop and still have a good picture). But when talking about proper cameras (DSLRs or similar), having more megapixels is not just about being able to crop and still have a great image...

EDIT: it'd also have been great to have a DSLR version of sample picture. Just by contrasting the various mobile photos, we don't know what the original image "really" looks like.</comment>


What If Gmail Had Been Designed by Microsoft? - <AUTHOR> http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2007-11-20-n35.html

<comment><USER2> This one (done internally by a group at Microsoft) is vastly superior: <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4313772690011721857>

</comment><comment><USER3> It would be called Hotmail?

<comment><USER4> ie: It would have been done over 10 years ago and not called "innovative" by anyone.

(Of course, microsoft bought hotmail, but that's aside the point)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> utter fanboy rubbish come on guys.

</comment><comment><USER6> At least they wouldn't obstinately refuse to add in folders despite the fact that every user begs for them.

<comment><USER7> Folders are unnecessary, and the wrong approach for mail. Filters + searching provides you with far more usability than folders could.

There are times it is absolutely wrong to listen to your users or clients, especially during a disruptive change like web 1.0->web 2.0.

<comment><USER6> That's an incredibly arrogant statement. I don't know if there's ever a time to ignore a large number of users when you're far from the leader in a field. Telling them "you can't have the feature you want, but trust us, this one is better anyway" is just plain foolishness.

I personally love folders. Folders + searching is pretty much perfect.

Google Reader has folders.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> One of my cofounders uses Hotmail for his personal mail. This isn't far from the truth.</comment>


A Weekend with Z Shell - <AUTHOR> http://avalonstar.com/journal/2012/jan/16/a-weekend-with-z-shell/

<comment><USER2> I keep going back and forth between zsh and bash, I don't fully get used to zsh, but it's really great. This railscast is also useful for starting with oh-my-zsh: <http://railscasts.com/episodes/308-oh-my-zsh>

</comment><comment><USER3> Typo in caption: "Iconsolata"

Grammar in footer: "After you that, ask me about anything!"

<comment><AUTHOR> Huh... thanks for that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> can someone tell me what font he's using in the screenshot?

<comment><USER5> Looks to me like Inconsolata

PS: the lowercase looks like Inconsolata; the uppercase definitely isn't

<comment><AUTHOR> It is indeed Inconsolata. The uppercase is Gotham if anybody was wondering.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> So a guy who doesn't like to read manuals discovered oh-my-zsh. Am I missing something?

<comment><USER7> So a guy who doesn't like to read blog posts decided to complain about one. Am I missing something?

<comment><USER8> I love how on HN it's not okay to complain, but it is okay to complain about complaining.</comment></comment></comment>


Should Facebook have a Chinese Wall between Product and Platform Data - <AUTHOR> http://www.immadsnewworld.com/2012/12/should-facebook-have-chinese-wall.html

<comment><USER2> I'm not one to offend easily, but ethnic characterizations like this really discredit the author and distract from the issue. I find this usage particularly jarring - it's at least somewhat derogatory, rather obscure to me (I had to look it up,) and completely unhelpful. An entrepreneur with an ethnic name should know better.

Presumably, this phrase comes from the Great Wall of China, which ironically was itself more symbolic than effective.

"Firewall" would have worked just fine.

<comment><USER3> Its pretty common business terminology - It is unlikely that the author intended to offend, and your reaction isn't a common one.

<comment><USER2> I don't think the author intended to offend, but I do think he was rather thoughtless. He might as well accuse Facebook of being Jewy with their data, called their policies "gay", or accused them of Indian giving our privacy. It's very inappropriate and unnecessary, regardless of how "common" it is. I don't care in general when people horse around with such things, but it has no place in serious analysis. When used in a serious discussion versus a colloquial debate it causes that much more edification of the stereotype and offense.

Far be it from me to be the PC police - I have a pretty thick skin with this stuff. I'm surprised others find this acceptable.</comment></comment></comment>


Robots Are Coming for These Wall Street Jobs - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-wall-street-robots/ <comment><USER2> Kevin Slavin gave an excellent talk [1] on the need for trading systems to be built with humans in mind rather than just for beating the other bots. I highly recommend it, it's certainly one of my favorite talks.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Goa1Y9OBHU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Goa1Y9OBHU)

<comment><USER3> Good talk.

And I, for one, am confident that Wall Street will accept the limits of their intelligence and introduce software constraints that require human oversight for the benefit of market stability. /s

Seriously though, any system with many actors is going to see unanticipated failures resulting from runaway interactions. There is no way around it. And I think that if the threat of losing money isn't a powerful enough incentive to stop it, then nothing is.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I still think there is too much hype around AI with all the doomsday prediction. Yeah, data processing will get automated away, but most jobs that require thinking within an ill defined framework will be fine for at least the next 20 years. The human brain is vastly superior to any machine learning algorithm we currently have.

<comment><USER3> Firstly, the human brain is not vastly superior. There are already tasks such that a reasonably competent developer can build and train a deep learning model that _beats human perception_ on commodity hardware with open source software.

Secondly, the number of jobs requiring thinking in an ill-defined framework these days is shrinking rapidly.

This is not specifically _caused_ by machine learning, but rather by the desire for predictable timelines / cost savings / metrics gathering. But it has set the stage for AI automation.

Take law and health care, for example:

* Law firms are consolidating, and lawyers can now spend their entire career working on one small, specialized aspect of a field.

* Primary care physicians barely are allotted just enough time to refer you to a specialist. The specialist has just enough time to order tests.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, on the ImageNet data set, where all the images are pretty unclear, low res and cropped weirdly leaving out context, deep learning "beats" human vision system.

Human brain beats everything for now. It is a much more generic system.

I don't know enough about the specific fields you talked about to comment.

Deep learning is an incredibly powerful tool, but we should differentiate between its actual merit and the huge hype around it, mostly done for PR and misleading investors/financial analyst.

<comment><USER3> You are moving the goalposts.

If we're talking about doing a specific task within a well-defined framework, computers are already proving to be superhuman. That includes image recognition beyond ImageNet, as well as games like Go.

But yes, if we're talking about a generic system, then humans are better. And I think they will be for a long time.

And yes, I agree, there is a lot of noise and sizzle around AI (but there is also quite a bit of steak there too.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Were they ever making any meaningful difference? How many of them have beaten the returns given by an index fund over last 20 years? Also, I hate the sensationalism of such articles, more sensationalism usually means less sense.

<comment><USER6> Quite a few. Famously Medallion:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/how- renai...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-21/how-renaissance- s-medallion-fund-became-finance-s-blackest-box)

<comment><USER5> I know about medallion but its also run by quants and afaik largely algorithmic. My argument is against the more traditional fund houses and stock pickers.

<comment><USER7> Most of the jobs listed are on the sell-side and predominately in market making roles.

<comment><USER8> What is market making?

<comment><USER9> [http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marketmaker.asp](http://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marketmaker.asp)

tl;dr They provide liquidity to markets.

<comment><USER10> tldr their wealthy benefactors throw money at them and they in turn throw money at an unexplored corner of an unintuitive industry

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you want an inadvertent AI doomsday scenario, how about black-box trading models that figure they can make money by betting on a market crash caused by a war, then manipulate the market to induce an economic conflict between different states, without every really having any understanding of the meaning of the outcomes they're optimising for.

<comment><USER12> AI doesn't work that way.

<comment><USER13> You might find the history of Doug Lennat's Eurisko informative.

"Lenat fed the massive Traveller rulebook into the system and asked it to find the best way of winning. Each night, after several hours of trial and error, Eurisko would spit out a few strategies—some interesting, some impractical, some ridiculous. At one point, Lenat remembers, it suggested he could win the game by changing the rules."

[https://www.wired.com/2016/03/doug-lenat-artificial- intellig...](https://www.wired.com/2016/03/doug-lenat-artificial-intelligence- common-sense-engine/)

<comment><USER14> I used to work for Doug and let's say there is some "dramatization" in that characterization.

Also Eurisko and other symbolic/semantic systems are fundamentally different from the NNs popular today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> tl;dr: data processing is getting automated. This is just a dramatisation (and a bit of a summary) of normal process automation. Nothing to see here.

<comment><USER16> Also, if you are a regular BBG reader, and anything in that article is news to you, than you should be worried and get updated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> So can we expect an influx of developers who were former traders?

<comment> lloyd-christmas That's me. I switched 3 years ago because I saw exactly this. I originally did it to gain more tech skills with the plan on going back into it, but I left and didn't go back. I took a bootcamp, and about 1/3 of my class were ex-wall street.

<comment><USER18> In your opinion how hard is for average ex-wall street workers to pick up programming ?

<comment> lloyd-christmas Finance is a huge industry. I can't really speak to the average, but I was a buy side equities trader.

Technical: All of us are well versed in excel and have working knowledge of SQL. Going from VBA to ruby/javascript was pretty trivial. While I don't really consider college all that meaningful, most people had been STEM majors, so the non job-specific knowledge tends to have some overlap. I was a math/econ double major with a stats minor. Had I dropped 2 econ courses and taken data structures + computer architecture, I would have had a minor in CS. The rest of the minor overlapped with my math/stats.

Work-life: Finance is a very hard-working industry and had a ton of continuing education, so that transition was extremely easy to the tech life. I previously worked 60-80 hours a week (dependent on earnings season) and went from that to 50 hours. All that free time went towards a few hours of extra sleep and MOOC work to catch up on some of the more fundamental CS concepts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Those infographics: unless they render a lot differently on non-iOS devices, Tufte must be having a coronary.

</comment><comment><USER7> This doesn't even touch on any of the back/middle office jobs that are going to completely vanish in the next few years. Most of these people have a very narrow skill set that is not transferable to other fields.

</comment><comment><USER20> The title should read "Robots Are Here..."

Great read for anyone interested in a history of the Wall Street bots: "Automate This" by Christopher Steiner

</comment><comment><USER21> And, as per typical, the regulation won't start happening until the white collar workers making 120k+ start losing their jobs.

<comment><USER22> It's been happening for quite awhile: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/end-of-an- era-as-cme-to-close-a...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/end-of-an-era-as-cme- to-close-almost-all-floor-trading-for-futures-1423100335).

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Unrelated but if anyone's interested, KloudTrader is hiring for fintech developers. Looking for senior software engineers (fullstack web) and a CTO. We are an early stage startup that is willing to offer significant equity. Stack is Rails and python scientific software. Email's in profile!

</comment><comment><USER24> Stephen Hawking says we should be more frightened of capitalism than robots

Who is behind robot? capitalism

<comment><USER25> I guess we just need some good ol' communism to fix this problem.

<comment><USER19> Maybe? Kind of?

I'm extremely pro-capitalism, but free market economics does rely on a number of assumptions being met in order to function, and only maximizes utility functions for those participating.

If you build a market that violates those assumptions (e.g., massive consolidation of supply) and effectively excludes people from participating (by reducing total volume of work amenable to human intervention), capitalism ... just doesn't work. Wrong tool for the job.

Traditionally we either regulate operations to make them better fit free market assumptions, or regulate outcomes. Whether that looks like communism is a secondary discussion, though if you consolidate supply heavily enough, then yes, you end up with some central supplier choosing what to produce and how to allocate it for all those people that have no resources to create meaningful demand.

<comment><USER26> I think we can make supply distributed (given micro manufacturing/recycling etc) so even if it is less efficient for a community to do it than something more centralised they still have some autonomy. See my profile for my website if you are interested where I am coming from.

<comment><USER19> I meant centralized in terms of ownership/control, not geographic placement. The current trend towards winner-take-all automation and resultant oligarchy.

<comment><USER26> So do I. Consider the technological extreme of open source manufacturing. A set of tools like repraps, that that can really make themselves (and computers etc)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Trading, Sales, Portfolio Manager, Analyst</comment>


One-to-One Global Forum - <AUTHOR> http://onetoone.global/ <comment><USER2> Gonna be honest, before i clicked I just assumed this was some kind of show-hn where you'd just get tossed into a chat session with someone in a different country omegle-style

</comment><comment><USER3> Only 19 speakers out of 75 are women, and only one is featured on the first page visible on the website. Disappointed.</comment>


Ask HN: I Wanted to Bootstrap a Business Not Write Volumes of Marketing Content - le-mark Seems like the conventional wisdom to draw quality traffic to your site/project is to write lots of quality search engine indexable content. I launched a project a while back, got some traffic and sign ups which tapered off. Now I'm faced with writing ever more content to keep the traffic flowing.<p>It's kind of annoying, I don't really want to spend all my time writing content (tutorials, marketing pieces, whatever). But what other options are there? <comment><AUTHOR> > It's kind of annoying, I don't really want to spend all my time writing > content

I hear ya. I really do. I'm not sure what your project is but it's important to remember that no matter what you do that you're always providing value to the user (otherwise they have no incentive to come to your site). Many times that's writing content (tutorials, blog posts, etc). Anything that can actually give them something interesting or something they can act on.

But you don't have to _only_ write those over and over and hope for organic growth. You need to jump into social media and jump into it hard. Write something interesting? Pimp it out on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, SnapChat hell even Musical.ly depending on your demographics. Find someone in the same or similar space as you talking about a topic near to what you have written on before? Jump into the conversation. Provide value. Re-pimp your articles in different contexts.

Writing content that provides value is important. Diving into social media is important. Try to give them both time and certainly get into the social media game as much as possible.

I'm not sure how the HN crowd feels about Gary Vee but the dude is a social media beast. Just listen to a few episodes of his podcast. He provides great insight around social media.

<comment> le-mark Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely give social media a try, I haven't done anything with social media yet at all.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah yeah social media gives some of the highest, if not THE highest ROIs. But you gotta go in hard. Occasional socializing seems to not really grow. But interacting with a community and digging into it seems to work great. Especially with SnapChat and Instagram lately.

I know I have to get better at it. It's not easy as you gotta out yourself out there a ton. Gary Vee has been a huge help IMO regarding social media.</comment></comment></comment>


The Dock is Dead. Long Live Alfred - <AUTHOR> http://blog.schneidmaster.com/the-dock-is-dead-long-live-alfred/

<comment><USER2> The dock should be dead. Why hunt and click on dock icons, when you can get to each and every one of your apps with a single trackpad gesture, with Gestr... demo, [https://vimeo.com/85566666](https://vimeo.com/85566666), download, [http://mhuusko5.com/#gestr](http://mhuusko5.com/#gestr)</comment>


Ask HN: Older engineers, do you see a future in tech? - <AUTHOR> Using a throwaway account for obvious reason.
I've been a software engineer for a decade, and I've been in ad tech for the past 4 years. The going has been good so far, but I can't help but notice a glass ceiling.
This whole time I've chosen to stay an engineer because I enjoy the technical challenges. What once seemed like a career path of boundless opportunity, now strikes me as a dead-end. Promotions have been very hard to come by, most of my career "progression" has been lateral moves.
What's more, it's not like I'm gaining many more skills. In fact, what I see happening is many of my skills becoming irrelevant or automated. For example network programming and programming languages. It has all become automated and packaged in pristine libraries.
Even in ad tech specialization has not been a savior. Machine learning has become more and more standardized, such that anyone with just 2 years experience can easily train models and deploy them to production (luckily, debugging ad delivery issues is still not easy, so I still have a safe haven there).
At length, I'm really worried about my future as a software engineer. I feel like I'm constantly running on a treadmill hanging off a cliff edge. If I ever stop running, or slow down, I might fall into the precipice.
And slow down I have. I'm almost 40 and I don't have the energy, time, or mental acuity I once had. I've been handsomely compensated for my work so far. But I'm afraid. I'm afraid that I will grow obsolete and that the young guns will catch up to me and depose me.
I have a wife and kids and a mortgage. I can't just up and move to the newest job hub. I can't undertake a grueling 5 year training sequence to switch careers. But should my fears come to pass, I won't be able to maintain my lifestyle. All those high-earning years were merely borrowing from my future. And now the bill has come due.
To close my meandering diatribe with the actual question. HN, do you see a future in tech? <comment><USER2> I've been working as a contractor for the last few years, so have experience of several companies. All have them have employed people over 40 and 50, some also over-60s, in all kinds of roles including writing code and management. Generally, their experience in delivering software is invaluable, regardless of technologies used.

People online tend to under-estimate how many people over 30 are involved in tech, for the simple reason that they tend not to use social media as much.

If you're talking specifically about your current job, then maybe they expect career progression to mean moving to management. Talk to your line manager to see what the coding career path is - if there isn't one then maybe you might have to consider finding another job at a place which does have coding career paths.

</comment><comment><USER3> I do. I'm 47 with 24 years experience in tech. I don't plan to retire anytime soon. I have kids and a mortgage too.

I'm still a Sr. Engineer, not a director or Sr. Director, but I'm happy as an engineer. I've been fortunate to work in a lot of different technologies, Windows Server, Linux, Chef/Ruby, AWS, etc.

I've also invested time in mentoring junior engineers and interns. I find that my experience combined with good listening skills, and an ability to communicate with engineers, non-engineers, and senior mgmt helps me to stay relevant.

I also run a DevOps meetup group and I'm learning Golang in my spare time.

In short, I'm planning to stay in tech a long time. If anything I'm enjoying it more than ever.

My one piece of unsolicited advice is that developing networks in your city can help you move to a company which appreciates you and gives you opportunities to learn new things while working for an empathetic boss. Also, don't underestimate meaningful work. Helping to cure cancer is more emotionally rewarding than serving up ads more efficiently.

Best of luck. Hope you can stay in tech and find meaningful work.

Doug Ireton

</comment><comment><USER4> I just heard a "machine learning is taking over everything" lament earlier this evening - not from ad tech specifically, even. Although I can't comment on my personal experience(being younger myself) one pathway to longer term job security for software seems to be to gradually move "down the stack" towards increasingly deep, low-level problems, where the necessary competence and experience is high enough to eliminate most young competitors. Another is to grow entrepreneurial enough to do consulting, or if more ambitious, product. A third is to transition towards an adjacent role where your specializations become more adaptable and less commodified - for me, I've pushed for a mix of design and management skills.

</comment><comment><USER5> 24 yo here, so I can't answer your question. BUT. From what I read in your post, you're not only asking if there is a future in tech, you're also saying you're afraid because you don't have as much energy as you used to.

I'd say energy has little to do with age. As every 40yo you probably are 20lbs overweight, you haven't done much sport in the last years, you probably don't manage your sleep as well as you should, same goes for nutrition, etc.

When is the last time you took a MOOC, a new formation, learned a new skill by yourself?

tldr your energy has more to do with your lifestyle than with your age. Gl. :)

<comment><USER6> > tldr your energy has more to do with your lifestyle than with your age. Gl. > :)

If that were true, we could cure death by lifestyle adjustments. Unfortunately, aging is a real thing.

<comment><USER5> You'll make death come later if you adjust your lifestyle. Sport + nutrition + good sleep = better energy day-to-day and better health -> aging slower.</comment></comment></comment>