Ask HN: The new job I started is severely underpaying me. What can I do? - <AUTHOR>

I just started a new job in the midwest USA with a B2B web software firm (~100 people, ~1/3 developers) as a Front-end Web Developer a week and a half ago. Stupidly, I gave them a salary number ($45k) first, and gave them an absolute minimum. They exceeded it ($47k), and I accepted without negotiations.
Fast forward to yesterday, and I find out they are still looking to hire another front-end dev with the same experience and skills as me. That night, I find a job posting offering $75k-90k, and confirm with the person who posted it that it is indeed the company that is paying me half of that.
How can I start earning what I'm worth? Should I go to the founder and demand more with that posting as a reason? Should I go to my direct supervisor and ask him? Should I buckle down and accept my low earnings until my yearly raise evaluation and ask for an 80% raise then? <comment><USER2> You can ask for money, but "demand more" is not the right way to do it. I suggest you keep a copy of the posting, and others like it, to demonstrate what the market wage is for someone with your skills. Then, after you've done something good for the company (had a successful project for example), ask for a raise using your research to support a salary proposal.

You sound a little angry in your post (understandable), but being angry when you ask for a raise is bad strategy. The company did not do anything wrong by giving you what you asked for. You bargained fairly and should have done the research before accepting the job, but don't beat yourself up over it. Live and learn.

If your work is worth what you're asking for, they will pay you that.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is an interesting question for me, because I am a teacher. Teachers don't get to specify a salary range, because we are paid strictly on years in the profession and the credits we earned. I am looking to switch careers, so I interviewed for a developer position recently. It was really interesting to be asked for a salary range. Money isn't everything, but I certainly felt a little more respected professionally than when I have been interviewed for teaching positions.

That said, I have almost no experience applying for developer jobs. The power to walk if you find another job is pretty good leverage. The resolution seems straightforward: be honest, tell your supervisor you undervalued yourself, and ask for an adjustment based on what you are worth.

If they hesitate, ask for a set of milestones to reach your desired salary, so you are not stuck on a long-term path below your peers. If their response doesn't satisfy you, quietly look for other jobs. If I were interviewing you and I felt your current employer was severely underpaying you, I would respect you for looking for new employment.

</comment><comment><USER4> It's too late for that. Take it as a lesson to ask for what you are worth. I think we've all done this at some point in time.

At one company, I was getting paid $75K. Years later, I found out that my co- worker (who was essentially hired to do the same job as me), was only getting paid $42K.

I now have strict minimums on my salary requirements and won't go anything below it.

</comment><comment><USER5> Don't go wading in _demanding_ more money with a line like "pay me more or I walk!". That won't work. Any founder worth their salt would just let you go because that's a really awful way to deal with people.

You're in this position because you failed to negotiate, failed to research the market properly, and (presumably) undervalued yourself(1). That's not a strong position to start from. However, hindsight is perfectly acceptable, so you might still be able to negotiate a better salary. Don't use the advert to show what you think you should be earning, but instead use it to show what the typical salary for someone with your skillset is. Be willing to give some proof points (demonstration of learning new things, willingness to do some of the less glamourous stuff, etc) before getting the raise.

Take this to your direct manager or HR manager if the company has one. Don't go to the founder (because that just undermines your manager, not because they wouldn't be receptive.)

Unless they're a dick they will listen.

And last, and possibly most importantly, learn from this. It's an important lesson. Don't be lazy when it comes to something as important as your job.

(1) It might be that they wouldn't have recruited you on $75k but gave you a shot because you're cheap...

<comment><USER6> Its not a weak negoatiation position that the OP didnt do his original due- dilligence. If he is employed at will, he can resign immediately and that is his bargaining power.

Said that, no reason to believe the company is acting in bad faith, they were offered a bargain and took it.

As it was posted, the best thing you can do to leverage and feel comfortable in your position is interview for another job, however, i would talk directly to your employers and talk about this directly.

Its probably better for you to suck up a month or so with a bad salary than start looking for a job from scratch which might take you as much time. You can atone the initial mistake with one cheap month of salary, and negotiate the next one. If the company strongs their position, you can always look for an alternative.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My suggestion would be (considering you have been here for only 2 weeks), spend another month and a half and find out whether you are valuable to them and they are too valuable to you (as an opportunity) then and only then go to them and say that 2 months can be seen as internship period where you were actually being paid less and the relationship seems to be working both ways, hence a more deserving salary will help me keep my heart here for a long time.

</comment><comment><USER8> Keep your job and do interviews for companies in the $75-90k range.

It won't look so bad as much as you think if you leave after fiding another job. You negotiated badly and they ripped you off... also, a >50% raise should always be a reason to leave your current company, it doesn't matter if you are there for a week or a decade.

You are the "prize", start acting like it and they will treat you like so.

<comment><AUTHOR> See, I'm not sure I want a _different_ job. The people and the product are both really cool, I'd rather not leave.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> You need some leverage. Employment is at will. Why not look for another job? If your boss asks you why you are leaving, you can say you are leaving for better pay. If they are truly looking for someone eles for a similar job and are willing to pay $75k plus, chances are they will give you a counteroffer not to leave.

<comment><AUTHOR> Even though I've only been here two weeks? Wouldn't that look of on my résumé?

<comment><USER10> The question is, what was your situation before you took this job? Did you resign from a previous job in order to take your new one, or were you unemployed before this job? If the latter, how long were you unemployed? Since you haven't been employed at your current job for very long, like others have said, I would basically start looking for another job as a continuation of your prior job search. Don't mention your current job on your resume unless the effective employment gap becomes unseemly. Don't mention anything immediately to your coworkers or boss until you've already found something.

One of the big mistakes that many developers make is accepting a low or barely acceptable initial salary in the hopes of making up the difference with raises later. The reality I have found, and probably many people will agree with, is that it is very hard for a non-executive/manager to make up for a small starting salary from within a company, especially with the same role. A good salary increase for performance is 10%, but it would still take over 4 years of the maximum performance increase to reach $70K from $47K. And that assumes that your contributions are acknowledged and you get the maximum performance increase for it. Even changing positions within the organization may not bridge the gap as much as you would like. I remember a very smart guy at a previous company that started at a low salary. Due to his competence, he was moved/promoted to a different department that had much higher average salaries than the one he came from. The problem was a company policy that capped salary increases when moving from one job to another at 15% of your prior salary. This struck me and him as completely counterintuitive. The company was willing to pay someone off the street that had much less institutional knowledge much more simply because they were new.

So the final question is, is $47K an acceptable salary for your area? Did you accept it because you were desperate or because you truly thought $47K was a fair salary? The moral of the story is that if you really feel like you deserve $70K - $90K, then the only practical way you're going to get it is by changing jobs or truly committing to your current company and getting multiple significant promotions from within. Your mileage may vary depending on the bonus/promotion structure of your company but don't count on just doing a good job and being loyal to cut it.</comment></comment></comment>


PyCon US 2014 – Videos - <AUTHOR> http://pyvideo.org/category/50/pycon-us-2014 <comment><USER2> It seems like the video is not up yet, but "The Birth and Death of Javascript" by Gary Bernhardt -- of 'Wat!' infamy[1] -- was by far the most entertaining talk I've seen yet. Jessica McKellar's quick overview of building a language- level sandbox was also phenomenal. Pycon has been really good so far, I can't wait for the next two days of talks.

[1] [https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat](https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat)

<comment><USER3> I got really excited when I saw the PyCon videos up and then really sad when his talk wasn't listed. Any idea whether that is the full set of videos they are going to post or are there more to come?

<comment><USER4> I think they post every talk, every lightning talk, and each keynote. These are just the first ones that have been posted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I spoke at PyCon, and it was my first time speaking at a major conference. If any HN'er with some spare time (or interest in the topic!) would like to give me feedback on what's good and bad about my talk, and what I can do to improve next time, it'd be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

[http://pyvideo.org/video/2578/cache-me-if-you-can- memcached-...](http://pyvideo.org/video/2578/cache-me-if-you-can-memcached- caching-patterns)

<comment><USER6> Great talk! The last question you received about how the python memcache client handles distributing keys after adding a node (rather than removing one) would've been interesting to know, but no sweat. Looks like somebody explains how this is handled for the ruby client: [https://www.mikeperham.com/2009/01/14/consistent-hashing- in-...](https://www.mikeperham.com/2009/01/14/consistent-hashing-in-memcache- client/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> There are more on their Youtube channel [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFDHJGm0IxH9uwcIHfR72yg/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFDHJGm0IxH9uwcIHfR72yg/videos)

<comment><USER8> Is it just me, or did the videos disappear?

<comment><USER9> Probably disabled video listing on their YouTube profile page. They want you go to their website to watch the videos rather than on YouTube.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Wow, that was fast. Great infrastructure here at Pycon. Knowing what kind of work goes into editing video to make it available in good quality to the web, kudos to the Montréal-Python team for helping put this together!

<comment><USER11> This was _insanely_ fast. Having video release date deltas not measured in weeks and months is a great achievement.

<comment><USER12> They must have used golang to get this processed and posted.

<comment><USER13> dunno why that was getting downvotes :-) It's not trolling if the tongue is in the cheek

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Just curious on all those who are there, do your companies pay for the trip, hotel and conference fees?

<comment><USER15> Developers have a yearly budget ($1.5K) to go to conferences. So, one biggish conf or a bunch of smaller local ones.

<comment><USER16> Where do you work?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I haven't been to Pycon, but I'll be presenting "Brainwaves for Hackers" at Europython in July, and I'll probably submit a proposal for "Scientific Visualizations with Blender" for the concurrent PyData Berlin event.

<comment><USER18> Please do the "Scientific Visualizations with Blender" talk!

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Yeah thanks! Here is a little zapier zap to send email alerts when new videos are posted [http://zpr.io/Hkyh](http://zpr.io/Hkyh) :)

</comment><comment><USER19> I will be watching a few of the ones marked under tutorial that are 3+ hours long.

I really appreciate the fact that they allow these tutorials to go this long and respect the content to know that it will take this long to provide more than a superficial understanding of the subject.

I also find the presenters are much more relaxed and their personalities really come through as there is no pressure to get everything in within an hour.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is "Descriptors and Metaclasses - Understanding and Using Python's More Advanced Features" really 3 hours long?

<comment><USER21> Seems so. It's called a 'tutorial', and other PyCon talks called tutorials are also around 3 hours.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Awesome--anyone have any more must see talk recommendations? PyCon always has really high quality talks.

<comment><USER23> If you have 3 hours to watch a tutorial, David Beazley's generators talk. Also, Jess McKellar's keynote on the sorry state of K12 CS education in the US (and some things we can do about it).

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Did they recorded for every talks in [https://us.pycon.org/2014/schedule/talks/](https://us.pycon.org/2014/schedule/talks/) ?

If yes, It's will really awesome, can't wait for the rest.

</comment><comment><USER25> I suppose more videos are going to be added to this list? Kind of make you wish they had votes / rating for the videos.

<comment><USER26> Why votes and ratings? While I think I understand what you mean, wouldn't you agree that votes play into a system in which the early-released and popular end up shadowing some of the other great content?

Which is to say, things that you find interesting may not be what I find interesting (or why easy, large-generalist-audience CSS questions become so popular on stackoverflow).

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> FYI, headline has a typo. 2014 PyCon Videos.

</comment><comment><USER28> I'd love to see John Perry Barlow... :)

</comment><comment><USER29> No dangerous "dongle" jokes this year I hope ;)

</comment><comment><USER30> What's VieDOS ? A new disk operating system written in Python?

<comment><USER31> I think it's a typo. it should be 'Videos'.</comment></comment>


Is this for real? "Dire Disaster Realities .. In The Gulf Of Mexico" - <AUTHOR> http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article21086.html <comment><USER2> If you're worried, "do the math": compare the methane coming out of the well to the atmosphere in the general region; I haven't, but I gather the former is _very_ small in comparison to the latter.

One reason I haven't done this is that if this was a big problem you'd expect the people and ships above the well to be having problems, but we haven't heard of them needing to use SCBA ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self- contained_breathing_appara...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self- contained_breathing_apparatus)). It would take quite a bit of arguing to convince me that the threat would be even greater 50+ miles away on land.</comment>


Ello: Inside the Social Network That's Stealing Facebook's Lunch - <AUTHOR> http://www.inc.com/jeremy-quittner/ello-is-giving-facebook-a-run-for-its-money.html

<comment><USER2> Never heard of Ello before and now there article everywhere Is this just a PR stun ? I don't like the name, either...</comment>


Android NDK r11 released - <AUTHOR> http://developer.android.com/ndk/downloads/index.html <comment><USER2> ndk-gdb / ndk-gdb.py seem to be broken in this release:

[https://github.com/android-ndk/ndk/issues/2](https://github.com/android- ndk/ndk/issues/2) [https://github.com/android- ndk/ndk/issues/3](https://github.com/android-ndk/ndk/issues/3)</comment>


Why Are People So Upset With Twitter? Let's Grab a Bite - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/twitter-developers-and-the-food-trucks/ <comment><USER2> Ugh. I don't know about the rest of you - that post felt patronizing. This stuff is complicated enough without layering on massive metaphors that shudder under the weight of the context they are trying to convey. It would be awesome if someone took a crack at a similar explanation without all the pandering.

<comment><USER3> It almost felt like a meta-analogy about the inherent limitations of analogy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "The people who had come to Twitter in the early days also felt duped, as if they had been told their bite-size snacks were being used to feed everyone on the planet, not to make money...The early Twitter customers and chefs should have realized that eventually Twitter would have to make money. That possibility included advertising."

That's not true. Early adopters (us) knew they needed to make money, but we hoped it wouldn't be at the expense of the people who invested in their success (us).

"The food trucks that had set up shop on the corner, were in some sense, too idealistic, believing they could always get the food coming out of Twitter free."

Not true. It's still free, but no one else can access it. The problem isn't with the cost, but the availability.

"But most of all Twitter, which changed its decisions and strategy midstream, confused almost everyone, often hurting those who helped make Twitter successful and popular."

The only true statement in the entire article.

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't get why developers are so mad at Twitter. Why is making a Twitter client the only project you can do? If you really can make a piece of software that provides a better experience for Twitter, certainly you have the ability to make something else. And if you're anything like me and every dev I know, you have half a dozen or more project ideas rattling around in your head. Make one of those and let Twitter go.

<comment><USER6> Ask Tapbots what makes them more money: The four projects they launched before TweetBot, the aforementioned "project ideas rattling around in your head" or TweetBot. I have little doubt as to the answer you'll get.

Developers are mad at Twitter because Twitter gave them a platform to develop on, one that their users enjoyed and made them lots of money, and then yanked it away. Simply telling people to "let twitter go" is ridiculous. Just because you have another idea doesn't mean it will be anywhere close to as lucrative and sustainable as a Twitter client.

Just like the article says, nobody owes anyone in this situation. Everyone was basically in the wrong. However, devs are still going to be mad at twitter. You don't have to feel entitled to something to be annoyed when it's taken away.

<comment><USER5> Fine so Tapbots made a bunch of money on a Twitter client. So people get mad because they can't "me too"? Make something else. Maybe it'll tank. Maybe it'll go nuts and make you a millionaire. Probably it'll be somewhere in between. But at least you're being creative and trying to move forward instead of lamenting change

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "The new boss, Dick Costolo, realized that if the company wanted to make money, it would need to stop allowing all the food trucks and delivery services from taking everything made at Twitter."

This was not the only option.

</comment><comment><USER8> Yeah, the whole restaurant metaphor was distracting. Twitter has always seemed to me more like an infrastructure project: we build the highways, you supply the vehicles and the destinations. The thing I've never understood is how that model is supposed to be sustainable -- in a real infrastructure project, everyone chips in, through taxes. With Twitter, no one chips in and everyone complains about the ads. How is that supposed to work?

</comment><comment><USER9> Is it me, or does this ridiculous metaphor just make it much, much harder to understand? I'm pretty aware of what's going on with the whole Twitter thing at the moment, and I found this really impenetrable.

<comment><USER10> I'm with you. I've been annoyed with reasoning by analogy and metaphor for a while now, because it's so often bogus.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Good tech writing is about being able to explain complex technology issues clearly to a broad audience without reverting to cheap, simple and inaccurate metaphors.

To somebody who isn't familiar with the recent issues concerning Twitter this post doesn't teach you anything.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'm somewhat glad to see a mainstream news piece covering HN material like this getting slammed by the community - I know people who still subscribe to real newspapers (of the local variety) and am amazed at how terrible and slow their coverage of most things is. This is especially apparent in instances like this one, where we've been having a much more coherent discussion about this for days now.

edit: Just to add another anecdote about the failings of mainstream news, last July there was an article in the business section of the paper about that blog post about the fake Apple stores in China, which appeared at least a week after the link appeared on HN and with unintelligent, spun commentary attached.

</comment><comment><USER13> Where this analogy goes totally off the rails (no pun intended) is the suggestion the developer community was called in to help Twitter scale.

> _So Twitter came up with a plan: it told people that they could take the > food being made in Twitter's kitchen and give it away by creating new places > for people to eat._

Strained analogies aside, that is just completely and utterly backwards. The API was a critical part of Twitter early from day one, and the 3rd-party client ecosystem and extremely high utility of Twitter as microblogging plumbing was arguably what gave Twitter the momentum to cross the chasm.

</comment><comment><USER14> _"The new boss, Dick Costolo, realized that if the company wanted to make money, it would need to stop allowing all the food trucks and delivery services from taking everything made at Twitter."_

That's a false dichotomy if there ever was one.

</comment><comment><USER15> "So who was at fault in this tale? Really, everyone."

The best.</comment>


We just launched Twitter support for our unified messenger - <AUTHOR> http://app.courio.com <comment><AUTHOR> It's basic, but you can search your twitter messages in our platform, which is not possible with vanilla twitter.

To link, you need to sign up, click the profile picture in the top right, click unified accounts, and in the modal that pops up, use the menu in the top-right to link twitter.

The last 30 days of your messages will be imported and you'll be able to use courio for twitter dms from here on out.

Let us know what you think!</comment>


The secret to vacationing in the world's 'most dangerous' places - <AUTHOR> http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/issue-sections/features-issue-sections/13133/dangerous-vacation-paul-luning/

<comment><USER2> Summary: "the key to vacationing in a place like Pakistan was making connections with people ahead of time. His hosts showed him around, told him what to do, and what he should avoid. He didn't go anywhere without, at the very least, someone to meet him at the airport."</comment>


Support Vector Machines (SVM) in Ruby - <AUTHOR> http://www.igvita.com/2008/01/07/support-vector-machines-svm-in-ruby/ <comment><USER2> Victory shall indeed be mine.</comment>


Petition to pardon Edward Snowden reaches 100,000 signatures - <AUTHOR> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD?r <comment><USER2> Expect a response pretty much like this:

[https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/why-we-cant- commen...](https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/why-we-cant-comment- bradley-manning)

<comment><USER3> Yes, but honestly that's OK. It's a small step, but for the president to have to come out and say, "I recognize that a significant number of the American people support this man who is convicted of espionage, but..." is a pretty novel thing.

<comment><USER4> 100,000 isn't a significant number of people. You are living in a HN echo chamber. I'm not sure most Americans care.

I'd love to know exactly what the NSA is doing. There needs to be some sort of oversight, of course, but they certainly have a job to do. I recently heard former President Clinton talk about it and he was somewhat convincing that there are certain restrictions.

At any rate, aren't we venturing into politics and opinions?

<comment><USER5> > I'm not sure most Americans care.

And of those that do care, a majority feel that he committed treason and needs to be brought to justice.

[http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/17/cnn-poll- maj...](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/17/cnn-poll-majority- give-snowden-thumbs-down/)

<comment><USER6> That's one reason I feel Snowden has hurt his cause by digging in for so much.

Another leak or two ( _especially_ about China, who most Americans feel are one step away from being the next U.S.S.R. _anyways_ ) and Obama, DNI, Congress, and basically everyone will be able to smooth _the whole thing_ over by painting it with the traitor brush.

I really think Snowden has tried to bite off more than he can chew. At first I believed him that he wanted a debate about how the NSA was being used and how dangerous it could be in the wrong hands. Now I think he really wants to gut the whole thing entirely.

But Americans don't _want_ that, they want an agency whose job it is to protect COMSEC, break others' COMSEC and especially to detect and root out terror cells and other anti-U.S. crime before it reaches our shores. The more Snowden aligns his goals with the destruction of the NSA and CIA the more I think he will get people to turn on him completely.

Don't get me wrong; I want that utopia where no one commits crime, we don't need money, everyone's interested are 100% aligned and we just explore the galaxy as peaceful peoples. But if we ever achieve that it would be 1000 times more remarkable than the Sistine Chapel. And you can bet your ass they wouldn't have completed the Sistine Chapel had they torn down all that ugly scaffolding ⅓rd of the way through.

<comment><USER7> What is hurting his cause is a) making this about him and continuing to talk so we don't have to address the issues and b) releasing a lot of information that doesn't have to do with domestic intelligence (china, g8 spying etc) distracting people even more and turning the public against himc) refusing to talk about what technical capabilities the NSA has and framing the conversation, instead; we see releases of information (PRISM) that are immediately followed by a rush to figure out the actual capabilities of the program, this confuses the public and muddles the waters even more

Snowden should have released the slide and then explained exactly what is wrong with the program. Instead, he did a document dump and followed that up by giving a reveal all interview that shifts the focus from the NSA onto him and his motivations. Snowden still hasn't addressed what he technically knows about PRISM.

He also claimed in his interview he could get access to the presidents email. If he thought that was a big issue he should have gone into detail about it for reporters(the target list, how he could do it as a network administrator etc.) and supported his charge. Instead, it is a one off statement in the context of a long interview where he essentially lays out a political reasoning for why he has done what he did. Snowden still hasn't addressed any of the issues of concern about the NSA and the (lack of)oversight exercised over the agency and its programs.

He had a perfect opportunity to put his concerns before the public and I feel he blew it.

<comment><USER8> Yeah that's one thing I don't from yet. Why he is not giving any technical information about prism. I can only conclude he doesn't really know much about it. Maybe he got hold off this one slide deck and jumped to conclusions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I feel fairly silly hawking my own site whenever subjects like this come up, but here I go anyway. Feel free to tell me to shut up. :)

I just simultaneously believe quite strongly in the idea of pairing calls for action with charitable donations. The donations make a clear and measurable message of the idea's importance. Plus, even if nothing happens, the charities benefit.

So in any event, to get to the fireworks factory already:

A plea to the US government to pardon Edward Snowden (donate to the EFF in particular!) [1]

The idea: "More than a petition" [2]

[1] [http://btf.io/382](http://btf.io/382)

[2] [https://brianstaskforce.com/blog/more-than-a- petition](https://brianstaskforce.com/blog/more-than-a-petition)

<comment><USER10> btf.io seems to be down, but [http://brianstaskforce.com/382](http://brianstaskforce.com/382) works (which I think is the same website?).

<comment><USER9> It is! Thanks for the heads-up on my (relatively new) short URL domain. I'm not certain why it didn't work for you, though. It seems to work from external sources I've tested (e.g., Google translate).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Mr. Obama, stop the madness now! You once have been a civil rights activist and you have been awarded with the Nobel Peace Prize. Doesn't it make you feel uncomfortable, to have switched the camp in just a few years? There is nothing wrong with becoming a nice guy again.

<comment><USER12> You really think that he's pulling the strings? That it's his call?

<comment><USER11> > You really think that he's pulling the strings?

I have absolutely no idea. How could I, if everything is kept in secret?

What I can do, is asking Obama, if he likes what he is doing. If his daughters like what he is doing. If he still believes in "change". If he wants to appear in history books in a row with Bush jr., McCarthy and Soviet leaders. I don't expect answers from Obama, but I can say, that I would not like it, if I were him.

<comment><USER12> You said it all in your last sentence. You could not ever be him. You're a normal human being. Presidents, regardless of country of origin, don't have that prerequisite. Actually it's a bonus point if they don't have it.

The history books will find a way to portray him in a good light. As history books have taught us.

<comment><USER13> History books do not portray all leaders, even American leaders, in a favorable light. A perusal of history books will come up with quite a number of people portrayed very poorly indeed. A glaring example: Nixon.

<comment><USER12> When I talk about history, I don't mean about 50-60 years back. If 20-30(or more) years from now a new kind of government emerges and thinks for some reason, that Nixon being a hero serves its purpose, then he will become a hero.

This is being done for thousands of years. Actually it's one of the first things you learn in history class.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> People sometimes forget that although espionage is indeed a crime, Snowden did not release these classified documents to an enemy of the state, but rather the American People. Our founding father, Benjamin Franklin also committed the act of espionage in 1772 when he exposed and printed letters from Thomas Hutchinson, the royal governor of Massachusetts, detailing information about the revocation of civil liberties of the resistive American colonists. This act alone is one of the major linchpins that broke into the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the revolutionary War.

Without American heros such as Snowden and Ben Franklin, this country would not exist.

<comment><USER15> Most of his works were written anonymously using a fairly ridiculous number of different Pseudonyms including Silence Dogood, Poor Richard, ect. What did he have to hide? Might as well have been a terrorist.

<comment><USER14> Pseudonyms !== Terrorist

If that was the case than any single person who uses a proxy, VPN, or Tor might as well be a terrorist; you're attempting to browse the web with a pseudonym. The REASON that they were used is because the use of assassins back then was pretty common, especially by the Empire.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Can't we simply utter "pardon Snowden" into our Skype or cellphone knowing it's being recorded?

<comment><USER6> Sure, but theoretically no one would hear you anyways unless they got a warrant. ;)

<comment><USER16> At least it will be stored for posterity.

<comment><USER6> Well that is the worst death, isn't it? No one ever even knows what you had said or thought once you pass away, you're just a bunch of cremains in the sea...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> When someone stands up for so many people, this is the expected outcome. Unfortunately, it's doubtful that the government will take much of this into account given how badly they were exposed--they will more than likely make an example out of Snowden in such a way that no one is encouraged to do something like this again.

<comment><USER18> On the other hand, it's barly 0.03% of the popluation - which I'm sure many policy makers will call 'irrelevant'

<comment><USER19> Really? Then why did the Whitehouse itself considered 25,000 people relevant enough to set them as the limit for petitions?

And then QUADRUPLED it to the current 100,000?

Also, it's not "0.03% of the population" that agree with this. Only the ones that (a) know about the petition and (b) took time to sign it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Now we undestand what "yes we can" was supposed to mean. Yes. we can do what we want without giving a f### about what people think.

</comment><comment><USER21> At least the petition is another signal that the public is against what the administration is doing on this one.

<comment><USER22> The petition is not evidence of the public being against what the administration is doing, as it only represents the people who want Edward Snowden pardoned, not the "opposite" view, if such a view exists.

<comment><USER23> Go ahead and create another petition that asks for Edward Snowden not to be pardoned and to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and I bet that it hardly gets any signatures.

Edit: This is a response to several of the replies. I'm assuming of course that nobody within the government would game the petition system. If we've gotten to the point were they would impersonate people in a petition to the white house then I guess we are pretty much doomed.

<comment><USER24> The NSA, CIA and FBI would game that petition. I think the phrase is "Manufactured Consent."

<comment><USER25> And people who've already written their own narrative wouldn't care if it was real.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Is there any evidence to support that these petitions have done anything that wouldn't have already been done? They seem like a red herring.

<comment><USER27> Proving that existing institutions and strategies are failing is a big part of what activists have to do at the beginning of a movement.

So the questions I'd ask about whether petitions work are: -will they work to get government to reconsider policies? -will they reveal government's unwillingness to act?

Either way, that's a victory in my books.

<comment><USER28> Surely the unwillingness of government to act is already evident? The petitions seem to provide an illusion of democratic consultation.

<comment><USER29> That remained my opinion just a moment ago. But reading though the thread now I wonder if at least some significant number of the signers might become more invested in the issue than they were before. Not to mention others who read about the petition reaching this threshold.

One major objective of activism is to inspire more activists.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Do you really think getting 100K signatures is going to make a difference?

<comment><USER31> I don't think so, but it reached the threshold requiring a response from the White House.

<comment><USER32> The Aaron Swartz petition has never even gotten a non-response response.

<comment><USER33> To be fair, that's quite typical of the petitions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Ok Obama, time for some of that Change.

<comment><USER35> I believe he progressed to a completely new level of nonspeak recently: _I 'm not against change_.

(Compare during the election - _Change!_ , and before the election: _When I am president, there will be no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war._ \- Senator Obama, December 24, 2007)

<comment><USER34> Agreed. He is not running for re-election anymore. He should start thinking about his legacy now. And fix this executive branch overreach now, the same one he was concerned about before he was in. If a constitutional lawyer and one who goes in promising this change won't, then we have lost all hope.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> This petition would only be effective at all if this 100k people announced they started using Bitcoin for at least saving money. This is when they shit bricks.

</comment><comment><USER37> Next up, 200k [1]

[1] [http://i.imgur.com/NNfWqFW.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/NNfWqFW.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER38> I wish someone would compile a list of all petitions which have reached critical mass and map the administration's responses. Would love to see exactly how "effective" this little charade has been since inception.

</comment><comment><USER39> This petition is missing Snowden's point. It's not about him, it's about the documents he released.

A better petition would ask the government to elaborate on the documents released.

</comment><comment><USER40> Ahh.. alright a hundred thousand more people to be targeted..

<comment><USER23> Which is not a bad thing. We increase it to a couple of million and it might as well be noise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> On an unrelated note, does anyone know how to update their info on petitions.whitehouse.gov? My displayed city is three years old on there.

</comment><comment><USER42> Great! 100,000 signatures! This will surely lead to something!

</comment><comment><USER43> So what exactly happens now ?

</comment><comment><USER44> Pardon? Award!!!

</comment><comment><USER45> It'll be interesting to watch the Administration entirely ignore this petition.

Kidding, it won't be interesting at all.

<comment><USER46> They won't ignore it, they'll just respond with a total non-answer.

<comment><USER45> Which is essentially the same thing.

<comment><USER47> but marginally more interesting.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


SEE – A new VISUAL programming language (similar to "C") - <AUTHOR> http://imgur.com/gallery/cnND1 <comment><USER2> Programming with this will take forever. I think, instead of making the visual cues map to one token at a time, why not make it more high-level. I dont have an idea how that is supposed to look, but it will make it a bit faster if it has visual templates for constructs like if/else, switch/case, for/loop or a function block, where you just go in and add in the comditions and operations. Also, if you can add some kind of zoom out feature that makes some larger details smaller so you can look at the program or a subset of it from a higher vantage point. This has the potential of being really useful. Another thing I can think of in relation to the template stuff is to make the language really expressive and clear, since the user won't be typing most of the boilerplate except for maybe the variable names and operators. One more thing, map keyboard shortcuts to templates. I'm also a language designer by the way. Peace. ;)

</comment><comment><USER3> I think that being able to drag a right curly brace and a left curly brace separately is a mistake. I don't like visual language too much, but one of the advantages of visual languages is that it's impossible to have a mismatched parenthesis or brace. It's more friendly to newbies to have the correct balance of delimiters.</comment>


Watson's Next Feat: Taking on Cancer - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/06/27/watsons-next-feat-taking-on-cancer/ <comment><USER2> I had a go using the Watson cancer decision making system. This was the experience: Web interface. Log in. Add new patient. Fill in many many different check boxes/drop down lists about the patient. Some of these seem irrelevant. Push a button. Treatment recommendations come up. Top recommendation is reasonable. Evidence summary provided about the recommendation. This is explicitly marked as being human curated from the MD Anderson, not generated by Watson. Links to possible clinical trials given - these were wrong, not applicable to the patient at all.

So in summary, this is really designed for a doctor treating a cancer that they aren't really used to treating. There is no 'magic' that I could see. Maybe I used the most simplistic version, but the major limitation seems to be that it requires very structured input about the patient's case. I can't indicate for example that there was something unusual about the how the cancer looked under the microscope, or that the patient has a rare other medical condition that influences the treatment decision etc. Not surprising, because these are factors that lack an evidence based recommendation. If you read the article this is the key point:

"I see technology like this as a way to really break free from our current health-care system, which is very much limited by the community providers. If you want expert care you have to go to an expert center," she said, "but there are never enough of those to go around."

This is quite a different goal to 'revolutionising' cancer care, or 'taking on' cancer. There is clearly a lot of hype... But I laud the effort, it will likely end up being genuinely useful in the future. At the moment it seems to be a very thin machine learning layer on top of a highly domain-customised infrastructure.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you read 'Watson' as 'whatever changing mix of machine learning techniques IBM throws at a particular domain', these PR stories make more sense.

</comment><comment><USER4> Is Watson a single fixed codebase or just a branding of multiple loosely related IBM research projects?

<comment><USER5> It's a marketing campaign.

<comment><USER6> I just had a conversation with an IBM Watson engineer. It was the worst professional conversation of my adult/professional life after I asked "is everything Watson has accomplished so far a PR campaign?" It's not they said, "we are moving into oil and gas." Ah, right.

<comment><USER7> They keep rebranding it. It feels like Java. Based on that, Watson will be a success, but not where it was intended to.

<comment><USER8> Yep, soon as Rich Hickey gets around to writing a Lisp for it. Wonder what he'll call it though. Clotson? Watjure? Wisp?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> From the article: But he is emphatic that computers will never truly replace human doctors for the simple reason that the machines lack instinct and empathy.

"There are a lot of things you can deduce by what a patient is not telling you, how they interact with their families, their mood, their mannerisms. They don't look at the patient as a whole," Husain said. "This is where algorithms fail you."

I don't understand this sentiment, instinct and empathy are just feelings that results from small cues that a physician can't exactly put into words. It does not put them into the realm of magic. And why exactly would a computer not be able to look at the patient as a whole? Of course a computer can (at some point) do that. It can even deduce heart rate an breathing rate from a camera image of a face, something a human can't.

Why do people always assume that if something is difficult to put in words it is impossible for a computer somehow? It seems like an invalid argument to me.

<comment><USER10> The hardest thing in medical diagnosis/treatment for a computer to do is not running algorithms to determine diagnosis/treatment; it's taking the patient history. If you ask a patient if he has had any abdominal pain, a lot of patients think about it and decide they have had abdominal pain. It may just have been some slight discomfort from gas a couple of weeks ago, but doc asked so it must be important; wouldn't want to leave anything out. Other patients are stoic and wouldn't really call that raging appendicitis "pain", more like "discomfort". An experienced doc should be able to read the patient and tell these apart. Watson? Maybe someday. As with most tasks in medical analytics, the rate limiting factor is the data.</comment></comment>


Reverse engineering GoDaddy's tracking script - <AUTHOR> https://lolware.net/2019/01/14/godaddy-tracking-code.html <comment><USER2> Why even waste time, money, and a domain name on some shitty web hosts tracking script? The XHR payload shows what data it is sending.</comment>


How Search Will Affect Programming Language Design - <AUTHOR> http://ginzametrics.com/how-search-affects-language-design.html

<comment><USER2> Biggest impact I've found which is not directly discussed in the OP: A great package repository (e.g. CPAN) can outweigh quirks in language design (e.g. Perl spaghetti code).

It seems to me that TeX did the best job of winning at both -- over three decades, at that!

</comment><comment><USER3> Great post! Check out this video of a research project at Stanford that integrates web search into an IDE: <http://hci.stanford.edu/publications/paper.php?id=138>

<comment> DanI-S That's awesome, although it'd be cooler if the information appeared on a separate screen rather than obscuring the text editor.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I find this rather scary; most 'programmers' under 20 I know 'learned' programming like this. I mean; most PHP programmers you'll encounter on the web only know how to combine snippets; they don't think for 1 minute, they just search everything they need, copy/paste, change a bit. And what is frightening that actually quite large sites are made like that. And this practice gaining popularity too.

</comment><comment><USER5> Before I clicked I took the article literally and though "someone wrote and article on how to name your programming language so it turns up in google first. SEO for Languages or Go is a bad name"</comment>


Wikipedia BIOS for women scientists are more likely to be flagged for removal - sahin-boydas https://thenextweb.com/tech/2019/07/31/wikipedia-bios-for-women-scientists-are-more-likely-to-be-flagged-for-removal/ <comment><AUTHOR> I'm not sure the article supports the title's claim that women scientist biographies are more likely to be removed. The only evidence provided is that one woman wrote 700 articles about women scientists and 6 were removed. I'd say that's an amazing ratio honestly, most people who've ever tried to edit wikipedia know how harsh the site is about reversing/undoing even well meaning edits so I don't exactly buy the fact that 0.9% of this person's articles on women being deleted constitutes unduly harsh or sexist treatment.

Moreover, the article even says that women are less likely to get fellowships/awards (no source provided but I believe it) that would allow them to meet wikipedia's notability requirements for an article, so if anything it sounds like wikipedia is applying it's rules without discrimination but rather it's the scientific community/academia's discrimination that would make it more difficult for an article to get made according to wikipedia's guidlines.

<comment><USER2> The claim doesn't even make sense, since she's not comparing women bios with anything at all, much less male bios. Unsurprisingly, when activist editors target people who still don't have bios in 2019, despite at least a decade of diversity drives, you are often going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

(Frankly, only 6 out of 700 sounds like they are being treated with kid gloves! Of the several hundred articles I've written or started, way more than that have been deleted or attempted to be deleted, even ones where I can provide literally hundreds of references. A group must be very privileged indeed to have a <1% deletion rate given WP's heavy-handed deletionism these days...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Er, that's "bios", not "BIOS". As in, biographies. The article has it right.

If female scientists have a BIOS, I haven't figured it out. But they do have biographies. Or at least, they would, if overzealous deletionists didn't have it out for them.

</comment><comment><USER4> Gwern had an article on Wikipedia's deletionist culture.

[https://www.gwern.net/In-Defense-Of-Inclusionism](https://www.gwern.net/In- Defense-Of-Inclusionism)

</comment><comment><USER5> Why is bios capitalized?

<comment><USER6> It appears to be an error. My guess is that this was composed using a correction system that failed to recognize the plural of bio and substituted the best match it could find. I have this problem of pluralized forms of informal words not being recognized on my Android thus triggering substitutions that do not make sense.</comment></comment>


The most interesting things I've learnt about learning - <AUTHOR> http://jchyip.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-most-interesting-things-ive-learnt.html?view=classic <comment><USER2> > You will reach limits in learning when you have a "Swiss cheese" foundation > full of misconception holes.

On the other hand you will get stuck on your first subject if your force yourself to learn _everything_.

I think it is important to know the point when the consistency of your foundation goes from "perilous Swiss cheese" to "rock-solid metal mesh to be filled in the future".

<comment><USER3> I agree with you here, Gioele. The balance between foundation and progress is an important one to strike.

In theory, a full understanding of the foundations of any subject will, in the end, lead to a more complete mastery. However, if you do not give a learner enough "Why am I doing this?" to support their early stumbling steps, you risk losing them entirely. Imagine if you were forced to read the entire K&R C book before writing your first program. I know I wouldn't have made it.

When I was a bartending instructor (past life), my boss told me this Yeats quote (misattributed I think): "Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire".

<comment><USER4> The short version I've heard is: _" The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled."_ -Plutarch

But upon some research, the context of the quote is even more interesting:

 _" The correct analogy for the mind is not a vessel that needs filling, but wood that needs igniting — no more — and then it motivates one towards originality and instills the desire for truth. Suppose someone were to go and ask his neighbors for fire and find a substantial blaze there, and just stay there continually warming himself: that is no different from someone who goes to someone else to get to some of his rationality, and fails to realize that he ought to ignite his own flame, his own intellect, but is happy to sit entranced by the lecture, and the words trigger only associative thinking and bring, as it were, only a flush to his cheeks and a glow to his limbs; but he has not dispelled or dispersed, in the warm light of philosophy, the internal dank gloom of his mind."_

<comment><USER3> Very cool. The full context really takes the metaphor further.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The most interesting about this blog post is the references to the U.S. military's book "Think like a Commander"

Available on the Defense Technical Information Center (DTIC) (although not on my firewall :P )

[http://www.dtic.mil/cgi- bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDo...](http://www.dtic.mil/cgi- bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA413046)

<comment><USER6> Thank you for that. It is an excellent read.

<comment><USER7> Always worth looking at that the US military do. (I say US because it seems that a hell of a lot of their instruction manuals are freely available. Shame I cant say that of the UK)

For me it was engineering. Years ago, I found some documents on metal work when I was learning to use lathes, milling machines, etc. Best resource available. It seemed old, but the information was invaluable. The thing that struck me was that, while it did do a quick over view of the basic methodologies and concepts, it very quickly focused on getting stuff done. It read like it was written for instant use. So, say you were a private stuck in the middle of no where, needed to make a part for, say, a gun and had a metal work workshop instantly available; this document would have said private making the part in something like an hour. Further, that part would work properly over a decent life span.

A basic rule of thumb for me is that what ever new thing I want to learn, I see if I can find a military instruction document on the subject.

<comment><USER8> How do you go about looking for such documents? Simple google "military instruction document"? Is there a term for those things? I know enough about the military that everything that can be put into an acronym is.

<comment><USER9> Depending on what you want field manuals gives you some nice archives -

[http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/f...](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/)

Or DTIC may be worth a search, if you know what you want:

[http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/](http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> >Mastery is more important than passing grades.

I hear this statement a lot, and I think it's very suspicious. Everyone wants to believe this, because if they fail a class, they can use "learning is more important than grades" as an easy excuse to avoid taking responsibility for their own failings. In reality though, if you've actually mastered what the class is trying to teach, you should be able to get passing grades.

<comment><USER11> Flip it around. What it is meant to say is just because you got a passing grade in the class, doesn't necessarily mean you've mastered the material. You may still have a shaky understanding of it. It is more important to master the material than just have the goal of "passing."

<comment><USER12> That's exactly it. I've observed that behaviour so often, I stopped counting. A lot of college/university students under very harsh time constraints learn the material with a focus on what they believe will get them the desired grade (be that passing or highest). Meanwhile, they will leave out big chunks of the necessary foundations, because they won't be tested on their own. And then they mechanically learn the parts that will get tested, without understanding the underlying parts. They pass, usually, but that's more a problem of poorly written tests. (Because if you didn't _understand_ the material, I happen to think that you should fail a well written test.)

<comment><USER13> I had a professor who unwittingly encouraged this kind of rote study. His questions were word questions that required you to describe in details certain concepts from the course material.

All of that is good (in theory), but his grading approach was to mark off a point or two for minor discrepancies. In theory, this meant that if you had the concept, without memorization you would get points.

In reality if you didn't include all keywords from the lessons, you would be docked points. People who memorized extremely well and parroted back his words almost verbatim would do well. People who worked to understand the material and write back their understanding often wouldn't.

Sigh. The sad thing was is that from a classroom learning standpoint, he was one of the best professors there. But I would often end up avoiding his classes (my memory is often terrible at rote learning).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Judgment has a negative effect on the efficiency of learning. Being graded causes stress and stress reduces your ability to learn.

Grading can be a motivator, however, causing you to push yourself to learn things you might not otherwise be motivated to do.

However, I think that learning without judgment is the most effective way to learn, when you otherwise have some intrinsic motivation. Likewise, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect) which is not the same, but another effect that causes an extrinsic factor to diminish intrinsic motivation.

When I learn for my own benefit, all of my efforts are focused on developing new skills and new understanding. When I am learning to pass some test, my efforts are focused instead on not failing.

If these tools are used to guide study to make sure students get the requisite knowledge then they can be effective. I think they lose effectiveness when they are instead used to classify and rank students.

I have always scored well on tests, but I've always learned and understood things more fully doing things that were at my own direction.

</comment><comment><USER15> _Face-to-face instruction should focus on practise and exploration, not on learning basic facts._

I don't think face-to-face instruction should focus on practise and exploration any more than it should on learning basic facts. Practise is controlled repetition, and this is probably the easiest thing for a learner to undertake on their own. Exploration is likewise a very personal endeavour - it's always come down to exploring how the concepts are relevant to me, or a specific context I am interested in.

Face-to-face time ('instruction' is not really the right word for it) should focus on collaboration more than anything.

<comment><USER16> Gently worrying if people practicing are repeating the wrong method and thus having to unlearn stuff when they discover their mistake.

You need a bit of supervised practice to make sure you're using the right method, then a bit of exploration to make sure you understand the concepts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I like his distinguishing of mastery of the visible versus mastery of the invisible. This is very true, and why people who sometimes seem outwardly competent and good at routine thing struggle with uncertainty and adaptation. I also like the distinction between drilling and practice. Both are needed, but simulation doesn't build core skills or help weak areas.

Perhaps the best thing he did was share the link to the Commander's guide.

</comment><comment><USER18> This is a really cool post, and education is somewhat of a passion of mine. Does anyone know of any other posts like this?</comment>


Too many nautil.us links - <AUTHOR> anyone else agree <comment><USER2> This is worsened by a certain individual[1] who insists on reposting the same links multiple times a day.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=dnetesn](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=dnetesn)

</comment><comment><USER3> I still assume my favorite file explorer has updated every time i see the URL</comment>


NoVNC: HTML5 VNC Client - <AUTHOR> http://kanaka.github.io/noVNC/ <comment><USER2> No context, not news.. it's been around for years. Why post it?</comment>


GirlsDoPorn: Young women win legal battle over video con - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50982051 <comment><USER2> As if the deception about the online distribution weren't cruel enough, apparently the operators went out of their way to send the videos directly to the participants' families and social networks, in a sadistic attempt to drum up viral interest. They're even suspected of setting up their own version of Wikileaks to specifically dox the women:

[https://www.thedailybeast.com/amateur-porn-company-girls- do-...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/amateur-porn-company-girls-do-porn-hit- with-dollar12775m-in-damages-for-exploiting-young-women)

> _In trial, the women argued Pratt and GirlsDoPorn deliberately leaked their > identities and personal information by sending the footage to their friends > and families, much like a direct-marketing promotion, to ensure the footage > "went viral" in the actresses' hometowns. The judge found that, at best, > Pratt and his colleagues both knew that harassment was "inevitable," > directly profited from it, and hid it from the models they hired._

> _"At worst," Enright wrote, "Defendants encouraged and facilitated this > outing process and even participated directly." The judge went on to point > out that the models' names came out in a manner that "strongly suggests" > that Pratt was involved. For one, internet history records showed that on > multiple occasions, several models were "outed" at once—revealing their > names, pictures, email addresses, social media, and other personal > information in one dump. For another, after Pratt purchased the domain for > one of the most prominent forums, Porn WikiLeaks, he didn't remove the > doxxing pages for seven months. The forum only came down eight days after > the class action lawsuit was filed._

<comment><USER3> Yeah, this is cruel thing to do. I hope this outcome will deter others from predating on young women.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Childhood friends from Christchurch Michael James Pratt and Matthew Isaac Wolfe face FBI sex trafficking charges over GirlsDoPorn website

[https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&...](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12277739)</comment>


Ask YC:  When Y Combinator receives equity, when does it start diluting? - <AUTHOR>

We've been offered a term sheet from a startup accelerator.
I think the terms state that their position will continue to adjust, and not be diluted, until just AFTER we raise a round greater than $250K.
Is this typical of accelerators?  For example, does Y-Combinator continue to hold its full 2-10% investment just after a $1M round is raised? <comment><USER2> YC takes common stock. They suffer dilution the same as the founders.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Has this been true every year?

<comment><USER2> Yes.</comment></comment></comment>


TN town takes down traffic cameras because they're losing money - <AUTHOR> http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_168401.asp

<comment><USER2> They're doing it wrong - nothing a fact finding trip to Victoria, Australia couldn't fix:

a) Red light cameras are so old school. Replace them with speed and red light cameras. When you put your foot down on amber you get pinged for speeding (~$150). A little late with the foot and you get pinged for speeding and running the red light (~$500).

b) Allow only 1.8mph grace despite the fact that speedometers are permitted 10% tolerance by the relevant design rules.

c) Rebrand as "Road Safety Cameras".

d) Profit.

Edit: I don't actually mind all the fixed cameras, but object to the covert mobile units.

</comment><comment><USER3> They should have kept quiet, and replaced the cameras with fakes.

</comment><comment><USER4> They were also removed from the city of Santa Maria, California (my in-laws live there).

One theory I heard was that an excess of expired/unregistered vehicles made it difficult to issue or collect on citations.

</comment><comment><USER5> An intersection where I wait for the city bus in TN really needs a red light camera. During rush hour, it's a contest to see who can block the intersection the best. In the past year, I've seen only one car get pulled over for it. But I guess there are better things the police can be doing than ticketing stupid, inconsiderate drivers.

<comment><USER6> I don't know how your cameras are designed but ours (Queensland, Australia) still wouldn't pick this up. They are only meant to activate when a vehicle enters the intersection or crosses the stop line after their light has turned red: [http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Resources/Internet/programs/roa...](http://www.police.qld.gov.au/Resources/Internet/programs/roadSafety/documents/redLightCamOffences.pdf)

<comment><USER7> In london they have "Yellow Box Cameras" which detect people blocking four-way junctions. I don't know if it's the same in other countries but you're not supposed to enter these yellow marked boxes unless you are sure you can get to the other side, so you won't block cross traffic.

However, my first result of Googling claims that they're actually causing longer jams. Sound like it could be fixed with slightly smaller no-stop zones.

<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article673093.ece>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting. In Minnesota, red light cameras were found to violate due process, so they are no longer in use. Even though the red light cameras are no longer in use, all of the cameras that were set up in Minneapolis are still installed, they just aren't doing anything.

</comment><comment><USER9> Maybe they worked themselves out of a job.</comment>


Google+: The Silent 40 Million? - <AUTHOR> http://www.standingdog.com/blog/google-plu-the-silent-40-million/

<comment><USER2> Yet another blog post that wonders why the author's Google+ stream is so barren. Not sure why this is not obvious to most of these authors - If you do not want your Google+ stream to look like a ghost town, you have to follow/circle active Google+ users who post regularly and publicly. Here are a few to get started : Tom Anderson, Robert Scoble, Mike Elgan, Bill Gross, Trey Ratcliff. Then find more interesting people to follow by seeing who these people follow, reading the comments in their posts, etc. You are never going to complain about not seeing content in your stream after that..and a lot of it will be interesting as well.</comment>


Visualization of number of classes into which prime numbers belong - <AUTHOR> https://prime-numbers.info/special/number-cloud <comment><AUTHOR> I was surprised that 17 belongs into more classes than 3 or 2.

<comment><USER2> Well, classes are man made while primes...</comment></comment>


RIM is 22% down on NASDAQ today - Why? - <AUTHOR> http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=RIMM&ql=0

<comment><USER2> Earnings were announced yesterday and they weren't great. [http://blogs.forbes.com/ericsavitz/2011/06/17/rimm- miserable...](http://blogs.forbes.com/ericsavitz/2011/06/17/rimm-miserable- guidance-triggers-multiple-downgrades/)

</comment><comment><USER3> edit: less spammy link.

[http://blogs.forbes.com/ericsavitz/2011/06/17/rimm- miserable...](http://blogs.forbes.com/ericsavitz/2011/06/17/rimm-miserable- guidance-triggers-multiple-downgrades/)</comment>


The Art of Execution - <AUTHOR> http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/01/remember_the_sc.html <comment><USER2> What do you mean? He started at least two after Apple, ACIUS (makers of 4D) and Fog City Software. That's two startup software firms he started before he went to Garage.

What I don't like about him is his Donald Trump all-go, no-quit, big brass juevos approach to business. That may work if you want to be the second coming of Larry Ellison, not so much if you want to be the next Sergey Brin.

</comment><comment><USER3> "He started at least two after Apple, ACIUS (makers of 4D) and Fog City Software."

I don't know anything about Fog City Software (so this probably makes me partially wrong), but he did not start ACIUS. He took over as CEO from one of the founders (chronicled in The Macintosh Way -- and just to prove I'm not a Guy-hater, I have a signed copy of that book). :-) He did start garage.com, so I suppose you could count that as a startup. But he was already rich by the time he did all that stuff (AAPL stock), so in my book, it doesn't really count. He didn't have that feeling of almost-desperation that a lot of us have. He could have just spent his life yachting if he had wanted to.

"not so much if you want to be the next Sergey Brin"

Yeah, I think that's really what bugs me, too -- the Trumpish thing. A lot of his posts seem to suggest "the rules" on how you get a job, how you run a business, how you do a startup, etc. And I don't tend to agree with him -- or I end up finding his point-of-view sort of elitist. "Here's the right way to do X, except the right way is something you probably cannot do because you a) don't know the right people, or b) don't already have tons of cash." That type of thing.

Or maybe he means really well but just rubs some people the wrong way.

<comment><USER4> How many failed companies did he helm?

The book The Halo Effect makes some interesting points on selective attributions for success and failure.

Not to say that he doesn't know how to make a business successful, but I'm skeptical when people look back at what they've done and start declaring that these are the rules for winning, more so if they've only been involved with a small number of operations. I'm unconvinced that they are accounting for all the little details and matters of chance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Red flag: he wrote it on the way to and from Stockton.

Seriously: you can't dislike Guy, but does anyone else find his posts less- than-insightful? Am I the only one who thinks he writes like a high-schooler doing a term paper?

The thing that usually bugs me the most is when he writes about how to make it as a startup. He's never done that in his life; he was a last-minute addition to the original Mac team as the _marketing_ guy. Not even the main marketing guy.

And yes, he runs garage.com. But what qualifies him as a startup expert? Certainly not experience.</comment>


Certificate Transparency: Public, verifiable, append-only logs - <AUTHOR> http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2668154

<comment><USER2> The author abruptly dismisses blockchain technologies as an approach to this problem, but then goes on to propose a peer-to-peer network that shares some important features with a blockchain:

"Monitoring logs, obtaining consistency and inclusion proofs, and so forth can be done by directly querying the log, but checking for consistent views is more difficult. To do this, the various log clients will gossip. In the long run, this could occur over a variety of protocols—XMPP, SMTP, peer-to-peer connections, etc.—but our first suggestion is to piggyback gossip on TLS. Whenever a client connects to a server, it sends a few items to the server, which the server may verify or merely cache; in return the server sends a few items back from its cache. This establishes what is effectively a peer-to-peer network between the clients."

Except that here, there seem to be multiple trees of hashes (one per domain, if I'm understanding correctly) compared to Bitcoin's single root block.

Given the similarities, I'm left wondering what the fundamental differences really are between a blockchain and this newly proposed P2P network. The new type of network does no proof of work, but it has no need to avoid double spending as it isn't a currency, so that seems fine. What else is different?

</comment><comment><USER3> Certificate Transparency has one glaring issue. The Merkel tree proofs can only prove a certificate is present (not that it is absent). The current proposal does not require "examiners" of the Merkle tree to be provided with the entire contents of the Merkle tree. This means blank check certificates can be issued to governments and companies, be validated and not be detected unless we catch their use in the act.

The whole idea of using a Merkle tree to "save energy" is a bit of a sham. The tree produced is imbalanced and will contain a chain of O(N) hashes to validate a certificate, which is the same cost as a signed block chain system (no proof of work).</comment>


Measuring the Entropy of the MOS 6502 CPU - <AUTHOR> http://www.pagetable.com/?p=401

<comment><USER2> There's a bit of a conceptual problem with trying to _measure_ entropy. That's because entropy is based on probabilities, and probabilities are _subjective_. What are "the" odds that my brother will pass his SAT exam? My brother can make the most confident prediction (lowest entropy[1]). But the reader of this comment can do no better [2] than take the generic SAT success rate (higher entropy). And some peasant in Tuvalu might as well say 1/2 (maximum entropy).

So entropy is subjective. It's a measure of how much _new information_ you expect to get from a message. The more you know already, the lower the entropy.

EDIT: An awesome quote from Jaynes.

"Probability assignments are not assertions of any physical property; they are a description of a _state of knowledge_. It is therefore illogical to speak of "verifying" the probabilities by performing experiments on the physical world. That would be like trying to verify a boy's love for his dog by performing experiments on the dog"

[1] Not necessarily true, see Wiki or David MacKay's wonderful book for details. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/itila/>

[2] Also not strictly true! You might argue that his passing the SAT should correlate with my passing it, and estimate what my odds would be/were from my comment history.

</comment><comment><USER3> I wondered how it would compare if you measure this from the gate level rather than the transistor level. To check this, I looked online for a Verilog file describing a 6502 core. This site has one:

<http://www.birdcomputer.ca/Projects/Prj6502/bc6502_page.html>

The zipped size of that file is 38 kilobytes, which is actually larger than the approximately 7 kilobytes guessed in the article for transistor level information. That is probably due to the verilog code being more verbose; you would think zipping it would make up the balance but apparently not. However, even though 38K >> 7K, I think the fact that the two are at least in the same ballpark is encouraging.</comment>


How to sell your software for $20,000 - <AUTHOR> http://nukemanbill.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-to-sell-your-software-for-20000.html <comment><USER2> The usual recipe is: spend 10x as much time selling it as writing it. That's one reason hackers tend not to like this route.

<comment><USER3> _10x as much time selling it as writing it_

This is not my experience.

I'm guessing my split would be more like:

      sales & marketing - 10%
      analysis          - 15%
      design            -  5%
      development       - 50%
      implementation    - 10%
      support           - 10%

Testing is not a phase, it's included in everything. Implementation includes deployment, training, and documentation.

Sales and marketing was never a problem. There is business _everywhere_. I mention what I do everywhere I go (who doesn't), and find business almost anywhere. Everyone uses software these days and everyone needs _something_. I've gotten 5 figure deals at parties, family functions, networking events, and mostly from word of mouth.

I love to hack, but I also love to talk about what I do. I may not be typical, but isn't helping people with cool tech what it's all about?

In my mind, the problem isn't the time needed for selling and marketing. The real problem is that this kind of business (consultingware, one-off packages, lite package with customization, whatever you want to call it) isn't scalable.

If my competitive advantage is better value because "the boss" (not some lightweight on an 800 number) is supporting you, then it's also my biggest limitation. I only have so many hours in a year. Sure, I can extend myself with advanced methods and technology, but sooner or later, I hit my limit. That's why it's so important to find a way to convert your consultingware business into a product business. Not an easy feat, but certainly worth the effort.

<comment><USER4> I don't think he's talking about consulting. I think he's talking about big ticket business software which almost always costs an arm and a leg to sell and market. Hell, that's true of almost all SMB software as well.

<comment><USER3> The OP was talking about a microISV (he even calls it "consultingware" himself). No mention of "big ticket business software" anywhere in this thread.

<comment><USER4> Hrm.

"I think then the best way to come up with a $20,000 B2B product idea is to focus not on "what kind of software do businesses really need?"

and:

"So, how do you sell it? Firstly, the fact you have a "lite" version is covered by your reduced price. You're going to sell your lite version for $5K or $10K a seat or something well below the competition, to account for its being a basic product."

I think his mention of consultingware is in reference to positioning it as "product-plus-consulting". Not uncommon in enterprise software to layer on services.

And, uh- $5 to $10k a seat isn't big ticket?!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Another thing to note when going this route is that word of mouth marketing is INCREDIBLY POWERFUL in a niche market.

If you're in a market where people are paying this much for their software, everyone talks to everyone else (competitors included).

So, you live and die by your reputation.

</comment><comment><USER6> Great read, the author seems very realistic and down to earth. A welcome change from the TechCrunch microverse.

</comment><comment><USER7> After reading this I went back and read all his other posts. They're very good, and it's excellent to read stuff by someone who's actually _done_ this - i.e. built a profitable software business from scratch.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is a great article! I don't agree with everything it in, but it's packed full of wisdom obviously backed by blood, sweat, and tears. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head:

 _if there isn't a product for it already, it's probably because there just isn't a need_

This may be true for software _packages_ , but it is most certainly not true for custom apps. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard, "Now if you can get it to do _that_ , you'd have something there." Oh wait, I do have those nickels.

 _you have to convince businesses or organizations they need it_

Not if it's _their_ idea. And that's where your ideas should be coming from anyway.

 _I knew I could make it better so that's where I happened to get my idea._

Yes! Sometimes I think the last thing said before conceiving a software product is, "Who wrote this crap?"

 _I know if I decided to make automatic parking garage systems, I'd at least want to hang out at some garage and shadow the workers for a few days. Not to figure out what they're doing wrong and how my software could fix it, but just to learn their job, learn what their current system does, and find out what they like and don't like about what they currently use._

This is solid gold! If you're not sure what "analysis" is, then re-read this paragraph. Better yet, cut it out and put it on your bulletin board. Everything here is necessary but not sufficient. I would follow this up with: Ask questions to everyone about everything they do, preferably in groups, until you have no more questions to ask. Get a list of every single data element you'll need from paperwork, screens, or people's heads. Don't stop until you know you've "got it".

 _In some markets, business customers may not want to use the same things their competitors use, and will be willing to try a new or unproven system in the hopes of getting an advantage (better productivity, lower overhead costs...). The unproven product may fail, but some are willing to try._

This is an almost always overlooked factor in buying decisions, even by the best of sales people. I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned in an article like this. Kudos to OP for bringing it up.

 _See? A one-person company is actually a good thing!_

Addressing the concerns about a one person operation is again, solid gold bulletin board material. I love the "hit by a bus" question. (Does anyone here actually know anyone who was ever hit by a bus?)

Excellent material from someone who has been in the trenches. Thank you, Bill!

<comment><USER8> > Does anyone here actually know anyone who was ever hit by a bus?

Yes, but not because of forgetting to look both ways before crossing the street. A bus went through a building my father was in. He was paralyzed but is fine now (this was before I was born).

<comment><USER3> I wouldn't normally joke about this, but since your father is fine...

I hope I can meet him some day. Then I'll have a great new response to the "hit by a bus" concern, "Not a problem. 100% of the people I know who were ever hit by a bus are fine now."

<comment><USER9> True story: 100% of the people I know who were hit by a train are fine now.

(That man has the constitution of a bull. I stand in awe of his fortitude.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Interesting note on the sidebar: "Although successful I guess, I'm still trying to decide if it was really worth the hassle." His first post goes into a little more detail on this: <http://nukemanbill.blogspot.com/2008/05/first.html>

<comment><USER11> Thanks for finding that. I thought this was interesting:

"I used to be really easy, always happy and always laid back as an 8-5'er working for the 'man,' but now I realize I have actually become sort of an asshole. Unfortunately, the realities of business make you that way. And you really _have_ to be an asshole to be successful."

I've heard the same thing from a lot of entrepreneurs and I've sensed it happening to myself as I've gotten more aggressive about pursuing my goals. I'm pretty sure I'm happier, or at least more fulfilled, but sometimes it sucks having to replace that lightheartedness with grim determination.

<comment><USER2> "And you really have to be an asshole to be successful."

That part's not true. You may have to be in some areas of business, including perhaps the world of $20k software, but I know plenty of successful people who aren't assholes.

You do definitely have to be determined. But determination doesn't imply being an asshole.

<comment><USER12> I have a problem with the $20k+ business software industry: if you spend time adding anything to the software that isn't part of the checklist of features the customers want to see before, you're wasting time and money.

The customers make decisions in terms of things like keeping up with competitors ("we have to upgrade because they did"), and risk to their personal careers ("I dont want to rock the boat"), and compliance with industry standards/buzzwords ("Your competitor supports XYZ, why don't you?")

They want to _hear_ that your software is scalable, easy to use, secure, and well-designed, but they _don't actually care_ if it is or not, and won't even check.

If I had to sell a product that had sub-standard usability or UI response times, I'd feel like an asshole. To others, its just how you do business.

<comment><USER3> _If I had to sell a product that had sub-standard usability or UI response times, I'd feel like an asshole._

Then don't.

Excellent usability and response time are _minimum_ requirements for _any_ software.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Personally I hate the idea of building software with the intention to sell it for as much as possible, as soon as possible.

You will just end up with software which feels unloved. Plus you will treat the project as a job and will likely not have much fun building it.

<comment><USER14> This author seems to be writing software for money, not for love. You can try to achieve both but ultimately one will have to take priority.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Great article, but the one point it glosses over is how to get the first customer on board. It talks about how to identify good markets, as well as what to do when a company is already interested in buying from you. But getting a big company to come to that stage is non-trivial, and requires several meetings with their management for a big, enterprise sale.

So how do you do it? You can't point to a track record, or other customers, but what you can give your customer(s) is comfort with the sales process, and transparency. Still it's an uphill battle, and usually you have to talk to a lot more than a few companies to get a contract of this size.

<comment><USER16> He wrote the software and then showed it to potential buyers. The latter doesn't seem more difficult than the former ç:-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> As an example of how it is possible to sell software quickly- in one weekend I built a slideshow tool. only about ~350 lines of code and two months later after it got popular I sold it for $3,000 on sitepoint, domain included.

<comment><USER11> Mind if we see it, if it's still around?

<comment><USER18> I'm guessing it's <http://flickrslidr.com/>

<comment><USER17> yeah that's it

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> One thing this made me think of is the notoriously badly written voting machine software. I wonder what would be required for someone to compete with existing providers to make better software for voting machines.

<comment><USER20> Easy. The CEO of your voting machine software company simply needs to drink human blood from the skull of Abraham Lincoln with various heads of state and government officials while they are all still juniors in various secret societies at Yale.

<comment><USER21> :/

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Excellent read and really makes you think about what you could build.

</comment><comment><USER23> Where is the evidence the fellow did what he says he did? What's the company name? Who is he? What product did he sell? Who uses it?

We all love to read success stories but shouldn't we ask that the provenance of such stories be provided? Here we jump into discussing the advice of a total stranger - an unknow with no credentials. "Nukemanbill" could be sitting inside a mental institution or another teenager playing mind games. Or maybe he just read the book "All Marketers Are Liars" by Seth Godin and is testing Godin's ideas. Hell, maybe he's a SPAMmer selling Godin's book and thus this post.

The only URL on the site that has any provenance whatsoever is the one to JoelOnSoftware. Heck, I question even Joel's BS ofttimes because his is a private company and we don't know whether he's floating on his past Microsoft earnings or really makes money. Should I read someone's writings because he posts a known URL?

Taleb's right - humans are natural-born suckers. We're too trusting even here on HN. IMO if you own a company and want to give advice then you should be willing to name yourself and the company. Without that it's just SPAM.

To it's credit the advice given is worth every cent I paid for it.

<comment><USER24> Hi giardini, I'm Bill from the blog (tracking back why my daily visitor stats suddenly went 2,4,0,1, then 7000...)

Honestly I'm just doing that blog as something to do and share some ideas about what I've experienced. I don't really care who reads it, so if it doesn't ring true with your experiences you can just move on. But posting my identity and company would mean my employees, competitors and customers would be reading every word, and I couldn't be truthful about anything. So I'm anonymous. I don't really care though, read it or not. I guess I'm just giving back a little to the anonymous cloud of internet people I've gotten advice from over the years, both good and bad.

<comment><USER25> Well there you have it I guess. Anyways thank you so much for giving time to share your experiences with us.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to get a startup to delete my credit card info - <AUTHOR> Alright, so a startup is not willing to delete my credit card from their system. I've stopped using their services months ago when they closed. They silently place small charges on my card once every few weeks or months, when I complain they take off the charges and tell me that it was due to some software error. . But they still apply charges randomly. How do i get them to remove my card info? They use stripe/braintree. <comment><USER2> If they're knowingly charging you for services that you don't use (or which don't even exist anymore, since they closed), they're committing fraud, a criminal act. You could file a complaint with your local law enforcement agency.

If they bill your credit card again, you can contest the charge with your credit card provider (tell them the charge is unauthorized, provide a copy of correspondence showing that you contacted the company and they failed to resolve the issue, etc.). If enough people request charge-backs, their credit card processor won't want to do business with them anymore.</comment>


Solving The Back Button - <AUTHOR> http://blog.mengto.com/solving-the-back-button/

<comment><USER2> Another problem I have with hard to reach UI elements is the fat at the bottom of my thumb will hit the bottom corner of the screen before I can tap what I originally wanted to touch.</comment>


Ask HN: How to find a business partner? - <AUTHOR> The last few months I've been working on a company by myself.  I have a solid prototype and path to monetization, but I'm running out of energy.  I need to find a partner who's willing to work for part of the company before I completely burn out.<p>Specifically I need to find a mobile engineer who's willing to build an android app.  I just have no idea where to start looking.  Any advice or would be appreciated. <comment><USER2> Difficult. Building the app won't be the end of this game and anyone in the US that can build an app is likely already hired.

My advice is that you try upwork.com and divide the path to build the app into steps of 50 USD each, paying for each step completed and follow yourself the progress.</comment>