Facebook confirms data sharing with Chinese companies - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-privacy-congress/facebook-confirms-data-sharing-with-chinese-companies-idUSKCN1J11TY <comment><USER2> > "Every piece of content that you share on Facebook, you own and you have > complete control over who sees it and how you share it, and you can remove > it at any time,"

This sentence has been bothering me because it feels like his lawyers wrote it. It's specifically worded to not include issues like this one.

Ref: [https://www.houstonchronicle.com/techburger/article/Zuckerbe...](https://www.houstonchronicle.com/techburger/article/Zuckerberg- hearings-shed-little-light-on-12827039.php)

<comment><USER3> So, a question to developers reading this: would you be happy to work alongside a person who participated in the development of this system?

<comment><USER4> Trick question. Typically, when assigned tasks at work, one doesn't have the forbearance or clairvoyance to asses the moral implications of the task.

The fairer question to ask is if the strategy team pitching such work/product understood the moral implication of the work.

<comment><USER3> This is Facebook we are talking about. One does not need to be clairvoyant.

<comment><USER5> A fairly large cross-section of big corporations will say things that are shockingly evil to even moderately critical minds. You work there to put food on the table, not to make the world a better place.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Can someone explain to me a mechanism for having JSON data describing a user and all their information downloaded and then displayed on the screen of either an Android or iOS phone without the app or OS involved then having the ability to send that data to a server later on?

The sentence "only available on the device" makes no sense to me as an engineer. What?

Did Facebook code review every app and OS they gave this access to? Even then, would they be able to garauntee that an update couldn't be made to the app or some library it relied on to prevent it from harvesting the data?

If that data was encrypted, how did it get displayed on a screen without being unencrypted first and this made vulnerable to scraping?

I was an iOS and Android applications developer and I can't think of any way to do it (at least on iOS) short of (a) keeping it completely encrypted the entire time (b) only allowing an application signed by Facebook and belonging to Facebook and controlled by Facebook completely (in iOS, at least) to get this data since iOS apps are well sandboxed from one another or (c) relying vaguely on a legal agreement that the other party not be naughty with the data contractually which means jack shit to the Chinese.

On Android - Jesus, forget about it.

<comment><USER7> Exactly. All the issues these reporters are up in arms about would still be a problem if Facebook gave these companies access to their regular API instead of a specialized one.

In the end, a user is responsible for whom they give their username and password to. That includes typing it into an app. I hope we can redirect the publicity around this issue to scrutinizing the security of software, operating systems, and hardware. And promoting open source!

<comment><USER8> >a user is responsible for whom they give their username and password to.

In 2009, when I signed up for facebook, I was signing up for facebook.

Not sharing with political groups and enterprises.

No one reads ToS and at that point, it should be nullified. Everyone loses their FB accounts because YOU didnt read the ToS. Facebook loses their business because they lied about people reading and accepting their ToS.

Its important to be reasonable, FB definitely went full corruption and blaming the billions of customers is laughable.

<comment><USER9> You're blaming facebook because people don't read ToS?

And then you try to tell people to be reasonable? That's like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it?

<comment><USER10> In many countries, like Germany, surprising provisions in consumer terms of service are unenforceable for exactly this reason (and other reasons).

In my opinion, it's American over-adherence to legal formalism to the benefit of powerful companies and the detriment of consumers that is unreasonable, not the German approach. And I say this as an American myself.

<comment><USER11> USA has very similar laws and legal tradition about what makes a contract valid.

<comment><USER10> The German (civil law) and US (common law) legal traditions are pretty disparate, including their approaches to contract law - but in this case the difference is due to consumer protection rules in Germany and Europe, not anything longstanding about either tradition.

<comment><USER12> I know very little about US law and even less about German law, but I think GP was referring to contracts of adhesion, which are less enforceable in the US too, afaik; even if the laws are far stronger in Germany and have different historical origins, maybe there's at least some spiritual similarity between the protections?

<comment><USER10> While it's true that contracts of adhesion are less enforceable in the US than other contracts, they're still very enforceable.

In particular, if there's some evidence that a consumer clicked a check box saying "I accept the terms of service" on a web form before submitting it, where a link to the full terms of service was offered and the check box was not checked by default, US courts will uphold far less friendly terms than German courts will.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> How annoying Reuters included ads that redirect on mobile to pages informing me about viruses on my iPhone and an incredible huge lottery win. Too bad, it's impossible to read the article on my phone.

edit: mobile

<comment><USER14> I think this could be your network operator. Happens quite often to me on 3g in Germany, never when using wifi.

<comment><USER13> I am in the US at the moment and actually on WiFi, so I guess that's not the issue.

But interesting that this happens to you. Never had that in Germany.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It's classic.

Only one thing can destroy big company / country etc - inside job.

In my point of view this is beginning of FB's end.

<comment><USER16> I pretty much disagree. how exactly would that work? more regulation? so people just click though more yep, it's creepy but I don't care buttons.

charge them as a monopoly? when you have google and apple?

<comment><USER8> I just dont use FB anymore.

I get FB messages, but I dont check my feed.

Occasionally I get event invites, but I check that every few weeks or month.

I dont want to act like I'm 'cutting edge', but was on gamefaqs when it was cool, FB in 2009, reddit in 2010. I dont use facebook anymore, we moved to snapchat and niche fourms.

<comment><USER17> You said you don't want to act like you're cutting edge which is probably good, but the years you listed for Facebook and Reddit aren't that early for those platforms.

<comment><USER8> I was on reddit back when people were liberal on the website.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > "Facebook's integrations with Huawei, Lenovo, OPPO and TCL were controlled > from the get-go — and we approved the Facebook experiences these companies > built."

They're going to be sorry for admitting to that when we discover that Huawei or Lenovo had been harvesting that data for other purposes.

<comment><USER19> They might be sorry for admitting this, but they have no choice -- once the clear question gets asked FB cannot hide the answer. It can lie, but it would be worse, as the lie will come out quickly and they would be in much hotter water: not only for doing something bad, but also for lying about it (effectively admitting they saw it as a bad practice). Pretending that what they did is not bad is their best option.

And of course Huawei and Lenovo will use data for other purposes -- they operate under different jurisdictions than FB. They also likely cannot keep ignore data requests for "national interests" even if they wanted to. And national interests include economic interests for sure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is horrible, how do I know a random chinese business won't sell it for a good markup to a russian agency or Egypt who've used it to prosecute non religious people and gays. This whole interoperability push is getting ignorant and lethal

<comment><USER21> You don't.

The simple consequence of globalization and economic integration is that _what everyone does affects everyone else_ , and the networks of flow in information, energy, and physical commodities are so dense that it becomes very difficult to attribute cause and effect (and therefore moral responsibility) to any one actor.

If it wasn't Facebook, it would've been someone else. That's not to absolve Facebook of its behavior, just noting that there are strong incentives in place that encourage interoperability and therefore efficiency that resulted in its actions, and these incentives affect every organization worldwide.

The only way to prevent this is to build barriers to control the flow and pay the very high price of loss in efficiency. China is way ahead of things in that sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I am not familiar with the terms of these kinds of data sharing agreements, but I know most US confidentiality agreements include a term that enables companies to share confidential data with governments if required by law. Most agreements if not all also contain a clause that companies take reasonable best efforts to try to resist or narrow such requests. I believe I've heard that tech companies can successfully do this on occassion

So even confidential company info can be taken by the government. In the US I think there are practical limits on this and companies have some ability and willingness to resist. From my limited experience the latter is not always the case in china, and I'd imagine the former is less true as well

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm kinda thinking of Chipotle's pr nightmare over food safety. This is similar. Facebook isn't going to die but people will be far less enamored by it going forward.

Usage metrics have already been ticking down.

</comment><comment><USER24> This will be the downfall of Facebook, every country wants them to give them data while at the same time wanting to protect their citizen from data being given to other countries. and countries wanting data about their citizens probably contravenes human rights.

</comment><comment><USER25> The first thing that comes in my mind: [https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHCWdU7F4hkcudy/giphy.gif](https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHCWdU7F4hkcudy/giphy.gif)

</comment><comment><USER26> So in other words, Zuckerberg lied.

</comment><comment><USER27> let's try to replace one word: "Facebook confirms data sharing with Jewish companies". You see what kind of ideology this is spreading? Being Chinese is bad?

<comment><USER28> anti-chinese sentiment is very common on hackernews. Goes into pure racism a lot of the time.

<comment><USER29> Hang on though. Lets not conflate China the country, with Chinese the inhabitants. I can be highly suspicious of China and Russia the countries without feeling any animosity towards the people who are from there.</comment></comment></comment>


Workshop offers geeks industrial-strength toys - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/03/28/state/n022146D73.DTL <comment><USER2> '..., keeps lights on at failing newspaper.' (SF techshop is housed in the empty half of the Chronicle's office building.)</comment>


Ask HN: Are We Becoming the Product? - <AUTHOR> Big Tech (Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft, Amazon) collects and monetizes your personal data without any benefit to you. Don't you think you deserve some type of kickback from providing your data and that we have control of how it's used? We have to do something before we become the product. <comment><USER2> Yes. But we are _already_ the product.

We're just waiting for that _massive scandal_ waiting to happen to give that killer reason to move everyone off of those platforms.

<comment><AUTHOR> My parents just for a FB Portal and I'm like do you have any idea what that's doing now? They're a little oblivious :) I'm working on a project to stop that so we can get our personal data back and use it to our advantage and have say as to what and who sees it. Everything is uploaded to your personal vault and only you have access to it www.theabook.com if you want to check it out

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Too late.

<comment><AUTHOR> So how do we get back control of our data?

<comment><USER3> Fantasy legislation and compliance.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think we make a new platform that doesn't conform to preying on user's data and put the user in the driver's seat, www.theabook.com if you have any feedback</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Logistic Map, Chaos and Bifurcation Diagrams - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_map

<comment><AUTHOR> One can draw a bifurcation diagram with nothing but a pencil and a pocket calculator, trying different values of r and finding the fixed points / orbits. I think it's the coolest thing one can do with high school arithmetics.</comment>


BitTorrent Launches Native TRON-Based Token - <AUTHOR> https://cointelegraph.com/news/bittorrent-launches-native-tron-based-token <comment><USER2> It is good to know that it can be exchanged between users to optimize their network speed and attain faster downloads. Very helpful for users like us.</comment>


Employers Can't Retrain the U.S. by Themselves - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-08-14/employers-can-t-retrain-the-u-s-workforce-by-themselves <comment><USER2> I often wonder if there's a sort of bad feedback loop that prevents this from happening.

It's increasingly becoming too expensive to employ people who aren't on top of their game.

Employing to train is very difficult, because people just can't live on lower wages - in some cases it's explicitly illegal.

In the UK this is primarily due to rent, in the US it seems to be a combination of rent and healthcare.

Rent is obviously addressable with political will. I don't know enough about the US healthcare situation.

People push for increases in the minimum wage, when really it seems as if the issue is that housing costs are skyrocketing and that effect filters through into everything else (a "high cost of living" area is usually just a high rent area).</comment>


A Diet Might Cut the Risk of Developing Alzheimer's - <AUTHOR> http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-diet-might-cut-the-risk-of-developing-alzheimers-1429569168?mod=trending_now_1 <comment><USER2> I'm surprised they didn't mention the keto diet in the WSJ article.

In this paper, we highlight how an excess of dietary carbohydrates, particularly fructose, alongside a relative deficiency in dietary fats and cholesterol, may lead to the development of Alzheimer's disease

[http://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/32ew4h/nutritio...](http://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/comments/32ew4h/nutrition_and_alzheimers_disease_the_detrimental/)

There's also the recent UCLA study where 9/10 patients improved after going on a keto diet [http://neurosciencenews.com/alzheimers-memory-loss- reversal-...](http://neurosciencenews.com/alzheimers-memory-loss- reversal-1377/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Funny, last week I read that being underweight INCREASED the risk of developing Alzheimers if you are middle aged or old [1].

So often these studies should just be ignored, or taken with a huge pinch of salt (apparently that is now ok [2] these days too).

[1] [http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/news_article.php?n...](http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/news_article.php?newsID=2359)

[2] [http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist- explains/2014/04/ec...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist- explains/2014/04/economist-explains-12)

</comment><comment><USER4> A reading of the literature on in-vivo and in-vitro studies of the effects of flavonoids (the colored components of many fruits and vegetables) on mamamalian biochemistry does suggest that they may have a significant role in maintaining health. I'd like to put it more strongly than that but it's as well to be cautious.

</comment><comment><USER5> This reminds me of Dr Fuhrman's GBOMBS acronym: [https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/gbombs.aspx](https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/gbombs.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER6> Are there any animals that develop Alzheimer's?

<comment><USER7> Not to be a jerk but literally googling your post answers your question...

The answer is yes, what was your point?

<comment><USER6> That instead of making up this diet based on educated guessing, feed it to animals and precisely figure out the best way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The Mediterranean Diet, started to support Olive Oil growers and supported/sponsored by Olive Oil manufacturers.

<comment><USER9> I would assume the downvote(s) came from people unimpressed that you were negative/attacking without posting supporting reasons.

<comment><USER8> They probably haven't read The Big Fat Surprise.</comment></comment></comment>


Here's Where Fred Wilson Is Wrong About Android And iPhone App Development - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/android-iphone-app-development-2010-12 <comment><USER2> WOW! It's almost like someone took all of John Gruber's points and rewrote them in an even less succinct style! Amazing!</comment>


10 Myths About Introverts - <AUTHOR> http://www.carlkingcreative.com/10-myths-about-introverts

<comment><USER2> See also <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657554> where there are many, _many_ comments already.</comment>


IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/technology/ibm-india.html <comment><USER2> One brain same as another but cheaper?</comment>


Large Companies Game H-1B Visa Program - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/11/us/large-companies-game-h-1b-visa-program-leaving-smaller-ones-in-the-cold.html <comment><USER3> A simple rule change that seems fair and will improve the view of American public towards H1B is visa bidding based on salary (as opposed to first-come, first-served).

Since H1B is supposed to bring in rare foreign talents to do the jobs not enough Americans are available to do, salary should reflect that. If only the highest paid people receive the visa, then the public would not complain as much about replacing American workers for wage reason.

(Even startups with limited budget often can afford $80,000 these outsourcing firms pay their top 25th percentile H1B employees. [1] For a technical co- founder role in a Bay area VC-backed startup, it should be higher still.)

Why has this obvious modification not been implemented? I suppose it does not need Congressional approval. Is it because the change would be against certain major corporate interests?

[1] Relevant infographics [http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing- companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0)

\---

Response to objections:

Objections below regarding salary differences between fields (scientists vs bankers) and costs of living in different areas can be addressed by considering average salary in each field and area. For example, how much higher, in percentage terms, the minimum salary of the proposed H1B is, compared to the average of comparable positions in the same area. (Details need to be worked out, but the same is true for other important systems.)

Assistance to startups can be given using a point system (like Canadian visa) that grants extra points to applications from smaller companies. This extra benefit would also help level the playing field in terms of overhead costs which is a much larger burden for these companies.

<comment><USER4> This would be completely counter-productive to bringing in foreign talent. The most talented and highly-skilled jobs are typically buried in the mid-range salaries. People on the higher ends of the salary range are your armchair grey-haired CEOs, armchair real estate owners, and Wall Street analysts. People on the lower ends of the salary range are your service industry personnel.

Doctors, startup founders, software engineers, rocket scientists, professors, world-class musicians, and everyone you actually _want_ to be importing foreign talent for, typically gets a modest, medium-range, middle-class salary in the US, at least when they start on any new project. Even Nobel laureates and Pulitzer prize winners usually get very mediocre salaries.

Having the H1B admission be based on salary would probably just fill up all the H1B quota from Wall Street, not serve as an effective talent filter.

<comment><USER5> If the "most talented and highly-skilled" people only get "very mediocre salaries", it sounds like there is not actually a dire shortage of them, then, unlike what H1B proponents claim. Either that, or the market's price signals are not working properly for some reason (due to downward wage pressure from something else, like collusion?).

<comment><USER6> > If the "most talented and highly-skilled" people only get "very mediocre > salaries", it sounds like there is not actually a dire shortage of them

It's not always black and white. The same argument has been used against mexicans in low paying jobs. However you kick the mexicans out, farms and restaurants will collapse.

<comment><USER5> I don't think anyone would argue that there is a _shortage_ of service-sector labor. The debate there is purely over prices: there are business models designed around having large quantities of $7.50/hr-and-no-benefits labor available (in some cases, $5/hr under the table), and they are averse to having to pay more. But pretending that their unwillingness or inability to pay $10/hr means that there would be a "shortage" of unskilled labor at that price is disingenuous. There's plenty of it available, but maybe only for "fairly cheap" rather than "dirt cheap". That might just mean that certain business models are not very good business models.

In any case, that's not what the H1B program is officially about: the purpose of the program isn't supposed to be to keep wages down in sectors where wages would otherwise get too high for businesses to afford them. Instead the argument is that businesses literally can't find workers in these areas, so H1Bs constitute talent filling a critical national skills gap. My argument is that, if that were true, the wages in these critically-lacking sectors would rise accordingly.

<comment><USER6> I agree the H1B program is abused, but I dont believe there is enough local talent to replace the tens of thousands of h1b workers.

It will result in a lot of small and mid size business closing down. Unfortunately I dont have any suggestions on improving the h1b program.

<comment><USER7> If the h1b program were closed, I think companies would miraculously discover how to (1) pay more (moving to sfbay is a ludicrously bad economic decision for most families), (2) train employees, and (3) stop leaking women, minorities, and parents out of their companies. In other words, they'll figure it out just fine if forced to do so.

<comment><USER8> You're not thinking this through: they'd set up more operations abroad.

<comment><USER9> You apply tax sanctions against them then. It's done constantly to level the playing field between domestic and foreign industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Indian here who topped his university CS bachelor degree. 95% of my class (in a #1 state university) cheated their way through exams and don't give a shit about the beauty of algorithms or programming. Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B. I want to, but I could not: because I couldn't afford to pay for a Masters degree in USA back then nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys). I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed.

There are two ways to game the H1B, the NYT article covered only one of them. The other is the 20,000 visas given to those who finished a Masters/PhD degree in USA. If they break out the numbers for these, they will find something that is an open secret known to all Indians: this 20K too is totally dominated by Indians.

Among my family and friends back in India, how to game the H1B's other 20K visas is also an open secret. These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters. Either it is a shit- degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter. They get the admission, pay the fees, pass the course. Then they take internships to stay on after the degree, keep applying and taking interviews relentlessly until something works out. I believe they can stay on in the US for a few years by extending their visa in this way, until they get a H1B.

<comment><USER11> Not sure what your point is. You seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who refuses to rote memorize math textbooks and score big marks in Exams(Which is exactly how the Indian educations system works, anyway) must never ever be given a chance to work overseas, ever. Not only are you wrong, you are off by a big margin.

Firstly, mugging up pointless trivia and math theorems hasn't anything remotely to do with productivity. Which is the only thing that matters in workplaces today. You might be the biggest knowledge repository in your college, you might know everything there is to know if the books. But your knowledge is replaceable by a Google search, or worst anything that you can be learned by any guy in India with a smart phone and a internet connection(both very cheap and accessible today) without ever having to go to a college. In a world with such levels flattening, only thing that counts is ability to get things done with maximum levels of productivity.

>>Today almost all of my classmates are in the US: thanks to H1B.

You should be happy about it, rather than cribbing about it.

>>nor did I want to do the shit work that is offered in these consulting companies (TCS, Infosys).

The very fact that you consider some work beneath you is speaking volumes about your attitude and work ethic. Or may be explains why people like you despite being intelligent are often beaten by every other guy who is ready to burn 20 hours a day to get work done and make a living doing whatever is possible, working and making the best of whatever opportunity comes there way. People in those companies you describe aren't doing 'shit work' as you describe, they do whatever software work everybody else is doing for a lesser salary. Because that is the only opportunity they get, and trust me even after that they don't crib. They remain thankful for the opportunity in a country where people are dying of hunger, they use that opportunity to learn, coming from small towns and lower middle class to poor families they work 20 hours a day, building their career brick by brick making the best of whatever comes their way. Only to be later face people like you who deride the hard work they do to get there.

>>I ended up getting a MS and PhD in a top non-US university that funded me and I'm still finding it difficult to join a US company, thanks to H1B being gamed.

You really must stop blaming the whole world from your problems.

>>These mediocre-to-hopeless students from India just apply to some university in the US for a Masters.

You really should be thinking very hard how all these people you think are below you are able to make a living, while you aren't.

>>Either it is a shit-degree from a mediocre university or a shit-degree from a shit-university (most of them seem to be in Texas). Doesn't matter.

True thing, because what matter is what you are ready to sacrifice as immigrant in foreign nation with a hefty student loan. How much you are ready to burn your self to get where you want to be. Its not about intelligence or grades, its more than that.

<comment><USER10> I accept that I should have elaborated my point by using better words than shit.

I am from a small town in India and my family was lower middle class. My parents burnt up all they had just to pay for my Bachelor degree. That is the reason I could not afford a Masters degree in the US. And there surely are many students from my background who worked hard to get to where they are.

That does not take away from what I see: Indians who have zero interest in computer science or even in their own work are grabbing the H1B of Indians (or Americans) who have that love and work hard.

<comment><USER12> There is a fundamental fallacy here, that is all too common. You think that busting your butt is something that you only do during your education. It is not. "started from the bottom now we're here" is as common a credo on the corporate ladder as it is in the education system. There are numerous CEOs and founders who were academic duds who slogged hard and used guile and intelligence to get to the top. I am not saying you won't be that way at work, but just at a certain stage we all hold the belief that education is the only indicator of success and hard work.

<comment><USER11> Its even more common among Indians, where people tend to equate good education/university/grades as life long right/entitlement to a good life, even if they are actually bad at work. There is also an immense social pride/pressure associated with foreign visits, citizenship in the US etc- Which causes these kinds of issues.

Also one needs to step out of their fantasy chambers and look at the brutal financial reality of life, which they sooner or later have to face. And work their lives from there. Else soon, the very same intelligent people will complain how a butcher down the street who doesn't know any math beyond basic arithmetic got more richer than a Algorithm expert on TopCoder. And cry that life is 'unfair'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Oh wow. I'm the French engineer featured in this story, Theo Negri. Still trying to move back to the US. Hopefully this helps more than it hurts!

<comment><USER14> Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the people on Hacker News who hate immigrant software engineers, and incessantly harangue here for the end to skilled immigration, every time the H1B visa comes up?

<comment><USER15> Is there any point to this comment except to stir up uncomfortable emotions?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The problem with H1-B visa is that it's entire premise does not make sense anymore in 2015 (perhaps it did when they started it way back whenever). Here is why.

It is supposed to be a visa for exceptionally skilled foreigners (and not just in IT) that companies should go look for _if_ and _when_ they cannot find suitable American citizens/permanent residents for _similar_ jobs.

Think about this. It is just so difficult to first prove this without really "gaming" it. So then starts the game.

The salary requirement or "prevailing wage" as they call it is again bullshit because it is very easy to meet that requirement.

Now the biggest issue which leads to severe exploitation specially by body shops: its ties to a specific employer and even though technically possible to switch jobs, it is almost impossible in practice.

If we need to reform any skilled visa process including H1B, it must include :

1\. No ties to a specific employer. Make it merit based. If I can get it with one employer, let me switch to another one without too much hassle

2\. Min. salary requirement may still be in place but then don't make it the crap "prevailing wage". The prevailing wage for Computer System Analysts in NY is average of $65000. Does that make any sense ? What does that even mean ? Who is a Computer System Analyst ?

3\. Don't make this a visa that is available when companies cannot find suitable americans for the same job. This is just not possible to prove without gaming. Instead, how about let anyone compete for the same job from across the world and let the employer decide who they want to hire.

4\. Oh and last, have stricter standards for "Service based companies" or these third party contracting body shops. They should not be allowed.

<comment><USER17> H-1B visa is a work visa and as such is not employer specific. Once you are in the US with one employer, it is very easy for you to switch companies. The new company also has to file a petition, you don't go through the lottery process (since you already have the visa). USCIS just reviews your case and approves your petition with the new employer. It takes about 4-6 weeks, but it is not too much of a hassle. Source: On an H-1B visa and have switched employers.

<comment><USER18> I spent 10 years on H1B and my experience (and many of my other friends) does not match yours. Two things:

1\. H1B involves a lot of paper work/legal work. There are not that many companies who are familiar with the process and are willing to spend time and energy to sponsor your H1B. This reduces the potential employer pool drastically. (Personal anecdote: I used to do contracting when I was on H1B and could not accept many potential job offers due to H1B)

2\. While it's true that you are not subject to H1B quota, you are still subject to the process and can get your petition rejected. (Persona anecdote: My friend tried to switch companies on H1B and found that the LCA was rejected because company lawyer made a mistake)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The current gaming of H1 is pretty damaging. TCS, Cognizant are not employing any exceptional talent. Even in India, exceptional talent does not want to work for Outsourcing mega-corps for more than few years, just to break into the field of software. I have seen case after of case, of people getting offers from Microsoft, facebook etc. could not get H1. I have seen case after case of students from Ivy League or highly reputable universities lose out H1-Bs to some guys who can barely finish a cohesive sentence. I am seeing lot of students who are applying for community colleges after a Masters degree, just to hang in US for one more year to get another shot again at H1.

H1-B cannot be repaired, it has to be replaced.

<comment><USER20> Moreover, an internal report in the National Science Foundation, a key government agency, actually advocated the use of the H-1B program as a means of holding down PhD salaries, by flooding the job market with foreign students. The NSF added that the stagnation of salaries would push domestic students away from PhD study, which is exactly what has happened. Former Fed chair Alan Greenspan has also explicitly advocated the use of H-1B to hold down tech salaries. [ source : [http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html) ]

<comment><USER21> An article about the Greenspan comment, which surprisingly advocates the position: [http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_grea...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/10/the_great_equalizer_alan_green)

<comment><USER22> I don't find it surprising at all that the Economist would advocate a policy that would drive down wages. Why would that be surprising?

<comment><USER21> I don't have links to back it up, but I read just about every issue and I've never seen this viewpoint advocated in its print magazine.

Given the opinionated writing style, this is almost certainly a less-edited (or non-edited) "blogs" section in the same vein as the wild west that is blogs.forbes.com.

<comment><USER22> I haven't read the Economist in years but advocating something that would drive down wages is pretty much of a piece with its worldview. It's just surprising, perhaps, because usually these conversations focus on unskilled labor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This also kind of makes me sad. My cousin who works for one of the service based companies got the H1B and is now in the US. I consider myself if not better talented, more knowledgeable than him. I worked my ass off in college, got multiple offers from Google/Amazon/Facebook and yet because of H1B, I had to work in India. The problem is not so much with being in India, but being distanced from the company HQ. I would've been so much better off had I worked at my company's head quarters than in the Indian satellite office.

</comment><comment><USER24> There's one additional wrinkle that the story, in fact, gets wrong:

> Federal officials allow only one application for each foreign worker.

That isn't the case. An individual may have multiple H-1B petitions filed, provided they're for different, unrelated employers. And indeed, it seems some people do pursue that route, accepting multiple offers, in order to boost their chances in an increasingly uncertain lottery. (In 2014, about half of the applications were selected; this year, about a third) And even if you're lucky in the lottery, you face months of waiting and uncertainty - <USER2> takes place on April 1, with lottery notifications going out in June and July, whereupon processing commences. (If you're lucky enough to find a particularly good employer, they'll add $1,225 to the already substantial fees and lawyer costs, for "premium processing", guaranteeing a decision within 15 calendar days, though you still can't start until Oct 1) Decisions then tend to come through in August and September - but, that's not the end of it yet, as around a third to a half of all applications will hit the "Request for Evidence" status, which may query the company's finances or legitimacy, the candidate's education or experience, and so forth. That can take weeks more to file and then be acknowledged, whereupon processing resumes, for a decision in perhaps October or November.

Bear in mind, this is all for a process that likely started with interviews in January or February, to give enough time for the employer to gather the documentation required for filing.

</comment><comment><USER25> Simpler answer: open offices outside of the US.

Amazon and Google both have big offices in Ontario (Toronto and Waterloo, respectively) which are growing quickly. Easier time with immigration issues, a low Canadian dollar (cheaper salary costs), and very low health-care costs for the company. Why would they not?

 _Bias note: I work at Amazon Toronto. (We are hiring! my username@amazon)_

<comment><USER26> If you don't mind me asking, is your salary compared to the people in Canada quite high? (Kind of like in the U.S.) I know that in some countries making money as a software engineer is as lousy as working in a bakery.

<comment><USER25> Sorry for the delay in replying.

I get paid more than most developers in Toronto, afaik. I get paid less than developers of the same level as me in the Seattle office. I moved back from Seattle, knowing that.

It always comes down to income vs cost of living ratios and differences. I've heard the best one within Amazon is the Bangalore office.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> EU-citizen here. TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning more than x.

Screw H1-B. Can't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a raise.

We can argue if x = 50k, 75k, 100k. In principle it shouldn't be more difficult for a professional person to re-settle than it is for a corporation.

<comment><USER28> > TTIP should come with visa free movement of people earning more than x.

So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict the movement of people based on their salary?

That seems highly problematic. As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU allows any citizen of a member country to travel and work in any other country regardless of income.

> _Screw H1-B. Can 't change jobs, can't buy a house, can't negotiate a > raise._

You can buy a house on a H1-B, you just need a credit history which you may not have if you have not been living in the US for very long. I know of several people on H1-Bs who have bought property with a mortgage.

You can also change jobs. Yes, there is legal paperwork involved. In the tech industry this is not normally a problem due to the demand for talent. The fact you can change jobs also means you can negotiate a raise. Again, I know several people on H1-Bs who negotiated raises (myself included).

I am not saying H1-B is a great system - it's not, I should know as I'm on one. But all three of your points are factually incorrect.

<comment><USER8> > So just to be clear, you're genuinely suggesting a system where you restrict > the movement of people based on their salary?

I think they're suggesting _opening_ things up so that if you make good money, you can move around with less hassle. That's less restrictive than what we have now.

> As an ex-EU citizen you probably know the EU allows any citizen of a member > country to travel and work in any other country regardless of income

Within Europe. TTIP is a 'transatlantic' trade deal, so presumably they're referring to opening things up between the US and Europe, something which I fully support.

<comment><USER29> > I think they're suggesting opening things up so that if you make good money, > you can move around with less hassle. That's less restrictive than what we > have now.

Less restrictive _for the well-off_. IOW, a great way to increase the gap between the rich and poor in all members of the arrangement, since the already-well-off will be most free to optimize their arrangements, while the less well off will be most inhibited in doing so.

Given how successful policy changes of the last couple decades have _already_ been, especially in the US, at assuring that economic growth _is not_ broadly distributed, further reinforcing the advantage of the already well-off through such a policy doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, unless the intent is to promote the crystallization of a permanent elite and permanent underclass.

<comment><USER8> I'd favor opening things up to anyone who's going to contribute anything at all, but there's also a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' argument as well. Well, there would be if this were a realistic proposal... but sadly, even something like this is probably not feasible.

<comment><USER29> > there's also a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' argument as well.

Making a serious existing problem worse doesn't make this "good"; the _bad_ is the enemy of the good, too.

<comment><USER8> Letting more people who want to move do so is not making things worse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Analysis of the H1B visa, and how it really helps big consulting firms, is incomplete without also looking at the perspective of the H1B visa holder. I think I can help, as I used to have one.

Why do people get H1B visas? It's rarely because they want to work in the US for a few years: It's because they want to stay. I know I did. But how can a prospective immigrant move to the US? By getting sponsored, and waiting for the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come back (it varies, but 5+ year waits happen). The best way to do that is to get an H1B, and then, when the company you work for realizes you are actually good at your job, start the permanent immigration process.

The trick is that you have to look for an employer that will take you, and you expect will still be there in 5+ years, and hoping that no layoffs hit you, because layoffs complicate, if not just completely restart, an immigration process.

So what do people do? They go with an outsourcer. The outsources will never lay you off: They just ship you to another client. It's an extra layer of insurance if things go bad. So ultimately, the way the system is set up, getting an H1B through one of those big consulting/outsourcing firms is also in the best interest of the people wanting to move to the US.

While I do not think there's much agreement on how to solve the problem, regardless of whose interests we have in mind, it 's pretty clear that the system is broken, as it has all kinds of perverse incentives, forcing good, honest people into situations nobody likes. But to fix this, we need a major overhaul of how the US employment-based immigration works.

Now, the problem there is of the very diverse interests, which we can see on any tech website: Some people just want us immigrants out of here, thinking that will help them. Others want to increase immigration, thinking that the most qualified people are in the US, the better for the US tech industry. But if there's no sensible compromise, what we get is what we have: A system that doesn't serve anyone very well, much less the people like me who went through it. In my case, I was fortunate enough to come in back when any company could get an H1B if they showed they needed a programmer, and coming from a country with extremely high unemployment, the risks outweighed the rewards. But it was very frustrating to be economically tied to an employer (for about 6 years in my case), and knowing that a job switch in the middle of the green card process, or a layoff, could mean having to go back home.

<comment><USER28> > _and waiting for the requisite number of years for the Green Card to come > back (it varies, but 5+ year waits happen)_

Most of these outsourcing firms are Indian, and in those cases it's actually worse than that. The latest visa bulletin shows an _eleven year wait_ for Indians applying for green cards (the delay between the application being filed and processed). This compares with a three month wait for an EU citizen.

The sheer difference in time scales should give you some idea of the vast numbers of Indian H1-B holders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> immigrant here ... the one change that would make the h1b immediately useless to big companies, or at least make them play fairly is to allow h1b holders move between companies freely and file for a green card on their own (providing paystubs to prove employment) after 3 years instead of having to rely on the company to do it for them.

Right now if you lose a job on h1b, you have to live the country IMMEDIATELY. Can you imagine the kind of fear of losing your job that instills in a person who has been here even more than a few years? You'll accept any injustice just if it guarantees you being able to stay and eventually get a green card.

The program has to be fixed/updated.

</comment><comment><USER32> This topic has been hashed through so many times and it's always the same.

H1Bs are used to distort the costs for engineering, not for hiring skilled workers that we cannot find. The engineers are then treated like slaves (Infosys), and at below market rates, to further distort the market value of these workers.

So we know that the companies are just simply lying when they say, "We can't find US workers." It's always, "We can't find US workers for what we want to pay." We know how they game it, and we know how it can be fixed, but the politicians simply won't step up. It's political suicide.

I'm glad that some people are poking at this problem, but the corporations are the ones with the deep pockets and we know who wins out there.

We can only rant and rave, send letters to deaf congressmen and yet, it seems like it's just completely moot and we're just plain ignored.

Sad state of affairs with easy fixes, but no political will. That's the state of the US these days it seems: Corporation ruled.

</comment><comment><USER33> Canadian IT consultant here, and I don't even look at opportunities in the US anymore. I used to respond to the recruiters with "Do you know I live in Canada", and the conversation would end (I think most of them don't know Canada is not a State). Now I just delete them from my inbox. It's next to impossible to cross the border for work as an independent. Big IT still sends resources across for projects, but I haven't met any independents in years who have worked down south.

<comment><USER34> As a Canadian, why can't you do such work on TN status?

<comment><USER33> Sure, but this requires a sponsoring company, and here are some stats. [http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are- issu...](http://tnvisasample.com/2013/10/23/how-many-tn-visa-are-issued-last- year/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Rather than bidding for visas or other points-based systems or even abolishing H1Bs why not this:

For every H1B worker an employer must have at least one American working the same exact job making the same exact salary as the H1B worker.

Pair programming is a thing you know :)

A 1-to-1 ratio would solve the "prevailing wage" scams as well as the "we can't find any qualified workers" nonsense because even if a company couldn't find a "qualified worker" they would have to hire a US citizen and _train them_ in that job (or I guess they could just pay them to sit but that'd be very wasteful).

What quicker way to end the "skills gap" than to force these supposed, "uniquely high skilled" foreigners to train their local American counterparts?

<comment><USER36> > "prevailing wage" scams

Who exactly is getting scammed in prevailing wage scams?

<comment><USER35> American workers and the US government (to a lesser extent). What's the "prevailing wage" for IT workers at an Indian outsourcing firm? $60k. What a surprise!

That's the scam: If those workers were Americans doing the same job they'd be paid a lot more than that. Probably double or more in many markets!

The system is being abused. Disney wants to lower IT costs but it can't just replace their workers with H1Bs because that's A) illegal and B) they'll never get enough. Tata to the rescue! By replacing those American IT workers with Tata H1Bs they completely get around _all_ the safeguards built into the law to prevent that precise situation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Not my circus not my monkeys but I find the public discourse around immigration pretty astonishing.

Somehow raising the H1B cap from 65K to say 100K would take away American jobs and drive down wages but legalizing few million illegal immigrants (many of whom are barely educated) is a humanitarian gesture ?

Even if those thousands are Chinese and Indians are willing to work for lower wages and aren't technically special, they are indeed far more productive than illegal immigrants, have significantly lower crime rates and probably lowest reliance on welfare. Not to mention, higher you go up the skill level more people does not mean driving down wages on the contrary it means increase overall output of that industry.

Two engineers can invent a bike 5 can invent a car. On other other hand 1 gardener is useful 2 gardeners drive down wages of each other.

H1B and overall immigration policy of USA does not seem to be based on sound economic arguments but rhetoric. No wonder results are a disaster.

</comment><comment><USER38> This article doesn't even scratch the surface of how "job consultancies" game H1B. I know for a fact that these "job consultancies" apply for H1B for a person using their services, as an employee of more than one company. Employees needing sponsorship typically apply for H1B through the company they are actually working for and as employees of couple other companies that they don't actually work for (the "job consultancies"). So effectively, the person's probability of getting picked up in the lottery in a year is tripled.

Once they secure the H1B, the person is more than willing to resign from the current employer and work for these "job consultancies" temporarily. And since H1B transfer is not that complicated, they jump ship to any other company later.

</comment><comment><USER39> I recently ran some entity-resolution code on the h1b applications from 2008-2012. Here are a list of the companies that Amazon has applied as:

[u'a2z computer services inc', u'a2z inc', u'amazon fulfillment services nc', u'a2z devleopment center inc', u'a2z signs', u'amazon services llc', u'a2z consulting inc', u'a2z technologies llc', u'amazon coporate llc', u'amazon fulfillment services', u'amazon media group llc', u'a2z signs llc', u'a2z healthcare services llc', u'amazon technologies inc', u'amazon web services', u'a2z field services llc', u'amazon pharmacy inc', u'amazon produce network llc', u'amazon mechanical turk inc', u'a2z medical supplies co', u'amazon construction inc', u'amazon produce network llp', u'a2z global llc', u'amazoncom dedc llc', u'a2z mobile home services llc', u'amazon fulfillment services inc', u'amazon consulting corp', u'amazon web servicse llc', u'amazon studios inc', u'amazon payments inc', u'a2z development center', u'amazon cargo inc', u'amazon fulfillment services llc', u'a2z', u'amazon watch', u'amazon digital services inc', u'amazon logistics group llc', u'a2z systems llc', u'amazoncom nvdc inc', u'audible an amazon company', u'amazon web services llc', u'amazon captal services inc', u'amazon fulfillment service inc', u'amazon professional care', u'amazon capital services inc', u'a2z development center inc dba lab126', u'amazon corportate llc', u'amazon society inc', u'amazon electric fire alarm inc', u'a2z development center inc', u'amazon global resources inc', u'amazon corporate llc', u'amazon builders hardware inc', u'amazon hut inc', u'a2z development center inc dba amazon music', u'amazon web services inc']

</comment><comment><USER40> Honestly, this is a sad thread, showing many US ideological biases in presumedly intelligent people.

Many pseudo-libertarians want to use central-planning to determine wages(!) of foreigners while criticizing the minimum wage.

<comment><USER8> Every time this issue comes up here, the "us vs them" comes out very strong. It is indeed quite sad. I flag these kinds of articles because they don't really add to the site.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'm currently an visa holder, not H-1B though.

For me H1B has always been the standard option to get a work permit in US. If you have a college degree, skills and someone is willing to give you job, it's a visa to work in US few of years or longer. For many people it's pretty much the only option. In this time of global mobility, it's crazy how hard and how limited the visa options are for this purpose.

Sometimes I see people talking here about moving to Europe. In Europe, there is a similar system for foreigners to work there. You apply for a work permit, and if the company and you meet the sanity check, it usually gets granted. That's it. There is no artificial annual schedules, caps or lotteries.

Salaries Myth. Excluding those outsourcing companies, I've never saw or known anyone get hired in a startup with much less salary just because they are a non-resident alien (sample size ~100) (Obviously foreigners don't always have as good market information about costs and salaries as locals.). Also I never heard any founder say that lets hire bunch of foreigners because it's so cheap and easy. Usually the hires end up costing more since you have to pay to relocate, pay the lawyers, and a hr person to create and manage process for the employees.

I understand that lot of people want to come to US, so there needs to be some limits, but it's crazy how hard or complicated this system currently is.

</comment><comment><USER36> As usual with H1B discussions, most of commentators here are full of hidden xenophobia.

Almost nobody voices the interest of foreigners who struggle to get better paying jobs in their countries (just keep these foreigners out of here, so we can squeeze an extra dime from our fat employers).

<comment><USER42> Are you saying that there should be no restrictions on foreign workers in the US? If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe that there are insiders and outsiders, and the insiders get more rights and privileges than the outsiders. If not, the state no longer exists. What are you suggesting?

<comment><USER29> > If you believe in the concept of the state, then by definition you believe > that there are insiders and outsiders

No, that doesn't follow. In many models of "the state", the _existence_ of outsiders is essentially a failure mode; the state seeks to be all- encompassing.

Now, if instead of the "the concept of the state", you mean "the concept of the _status quo_ system of multiple coexisting sovereign nation-states", you'd have a point.

But I don't think _anyone_ thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for.

<comment><USER42> > But I don't think anyone thinks that system is a moral ideal to strive for.

I agree, and despite that most people probably misinterpreted my first comment, I am complete against the existence of any state that separates individuals. But do you really think that _no one_ thinks that multiple coexisting sovereign nation-states is a good idea? Isn't that the idea behind nationalism?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> The H1B abuse discussion comes up once every few months on HN and elsewhere but things have gotten a lot worse in the past 2 years with the lottery. There are a number of definitive and progressive steps that USCIS can take to prevent misuse by TCS, CTS and other consulting companies.

Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of the workforce will solve this issue. This will work well for everyone (large tech companies, startups, small businesses) except the sweatshops. If i had to take a guess (not hard to verify), 95+% of employees of the consulting companies will be underpaid visa workers. The prevailing wage is a joke ($70k in the bay area for someone with 5 years experience) and enforcing salary based bidding isn't really a practical solution. It can easily be gamed or it will only be beneficial for a certain group of employers.

I wrote an essay two and half years back on how to fix this and it is sad that all those are still true [http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled- immigration-proble...](http://ramanuj.me/fixing-the-high-skilled-immigration- problem.html)

<comment><USER44> "Just establishing a cap on the number of visas per company as a percentage of the workforce"

This can be gamed too. Large employers could start operating bodyshops.

Say the H1B limit was only 5% of a company's workforce. Then Walmart could sponsor 110,000 workers. Yum!Brands could sponsor 22,000 workers.

This probably wouldn't even put Infosys or Tata out of business in the US they would provide the same recruitment and management services they do now, but other companies (in this example Walmart and Yum) would be the sponsors of record.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Does anyone mention that these companies usually file multiple H-1B for the same person? That one of the major reason how Tata Consultancy Services (TCS) like companies get so much visas, and which is unfair to others.

</comment><comment><USER46> How about we just get rid of immigration caps and other restrictions? Limit the amount of public benefits that recent immigrants can receive and open the borders. An infusion of ambitious and hard-working immigrants has always done wonders for this country. Let's recapture that frontier spirit of rugged individualism. Let's tell the world: "This is the place where your hard work can make a better life for you and your family. Where you control your own destiny. America is open for business again."

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about immigration policy in general, not just H1Bs. The reason to limit public benefits would be to, in the absence of restrictions on immigration, ensure that people are coming to work, not to live off the state. Public benefits in the US pay better than most jobs in a lot of countries. We shouldn't stick our heads in the sand and pretend that such incentives don't matter.

<comment> finance-geek No one is really worried about H1B workers "receiving benefits"...we're not speaking about laborers. The core problem is that tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of local graduates are sitting idle, unemployed, looking for work, while companies claim there is a "shortage." In reality, there is only a shortage of companies willing to pay market wage.

The reality is that local grads (Joe Smith in Columbus Ohio) is not willing to live 2hrs away and dorm with four other guys in a H1b exurb hostel...while some guy from India is...and this is why they are hired, not because there is a lack of local talent but because few local grads are willing to work for so little that they are essentially reduced to exurb hosteling.

<comment><USER46> I don't believe in government protections for elite workers. The median salary for H1B-holders is north of $70,000, well above median household income in the US, let alone individual income. I'm sure that within particular industries H1Bs make less than local workers, but perhaps the pay in those industries is inflated due to the low supply of workers. Ironically it is technology workers, responsible for more labor-market disruption than immigration and trade combined, who are complaining the most about competition from H1Bs. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

<comment> UK-AL It's not 'artificially' inflated because of low supply. If its low supply, then the price should be high because it means its hard to train for.

Technical people arnt really elite workers either. There many many developers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> H1-B is a massive corporate subsidy, even Milton Friedman says so.

H1-B doesn't need to be reformed, or improved with half measures like changes to the visas being awarded based on salary, etc.

H1-B needs to be abolished. Those employers that need extraordinary talent can use the O1 visa and the rest of the employers and employees can let supply meet demand. As it is now the H1-B/F1 OPT corporate loophole is skewing the education system (American universities share some of the blame) so bad that american students aren't able to get seats at American universities, and the "talent shortage" (which there isn't) becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

If I were a smart, aware 18 year old person trying to decide what field of study I was interested in with a focus on career longevity and life time earnings, I sure as heck would not pick computer science, and I don't blame them.

<comment><USER48> What would you pick? Genuine question.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> The simple way to fix this is to remove the indentured servitude. In a fair market, labor is free to move around. Overnight, the incentive for companies to hire H1Bs go out the door, because all the advantages of doing so (below market servitude for years) disappears.

</comment><comment><USER50> This is a very well known issue that has been brought up before. The NYT Piece has a basic error: the case highlighted of Mr. Négri - His H1-B Visa was not Denied (which would imply that his case was processed), it was returned without being accepted.

There are also two well know tweaks that can take the perverse incentives out of the H1-B system:

1) Allow the H1-B to be a work permit with free movement between like jobs at other companies - this will reduce underpayment and remove the virtual slave- labor conditions of an H1-B holder

2)Reform the Labor Certification process (the precursor allowing you file) so that it actually ensures that no Americans can be found - the current state of the LC system is a joke.

<comment><USER18> I am not sure how you can reform the labor certification process when the goal of the process is to find 'whether there are qualified Americans' to do this job.

Other than a very few cases, I guarantee you that there is not a single job where you can't find an American to do the job if you are willing to pay the price.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Re: H1Bs and STEM. Specifically Research positions. While an anecdotal observation at the beginning, I was able to review some of the numbers via the H1B Data site (which I believe I found through here) to get a feel for if my hunch had any merit.

What struck me is that there is a very, very large public outcry that US students need to get into STEM fields, and that "the US is falling behind in reserach science!" is a genuine problem. Well, I do think that's true, but in practice, I see a push toward a corporate business model treating cheap labor as preferable to sustainable business practices.

As in, I'm not delusional that research science in the US is a glamorous, higly-paid industry for which people are clamoring to get in due to greed. To my understanding, most people understand following their academic dreams isn't a path to becoming wealthy. However, it does appear that US research institutions are very comfortable with claiming more students are needed in research science, more graduates are needed...and then they drive the standard of living down by seeking out H1Bs to fill everyday positions, such as Research Associates.

I wish I had the skills and or time to put such a theory to the test using various data sources (H1B data, graduation statistics, BLS information as available, etc), but for now it's simply one of those suspicions that I've developed due to personal observation; it may be overly skeptical of the system, but that's kind of the point. I like context.

</comment><comment><USER52> Lets look at this problem. 20K visas are gamed every year. Lets assume polices in place made them unable to game the system, we might have save as much as 8OK jobs say here in the USA (assuming 3 jobs from India are also moved back to US in addition to the one in US). But people who know economics say that is not a big deal or the source of American economic woes, it is the decimation of manufacturing and millions of jobs having gone to China + Korea + Indonesia + India +...rest of the world. It is globalization.

So why is this not talked about? The reason being: unlike H1B visas they are not easily quantified in terms of number of "human jobs" even though they are a factor of magnitude larger I would reckon. However, they can be measured by trade deficit that America builds up( because the money goes to that country) and you are right about which country America has the highest trade deficit with US (worth millions of jobs in USA).

So H1B visa is really a small fry, but delicious fry and easy catch and an easy problem to describe and easy to vilify.

Also, if the H1B visas were completely eliminated, its not like those jobs may stay in the US forever, companies may find alternate strategies to get less " important " work done by foreigners.

</comment><comment><USER53> In addition to what has already been said, the H1B visa system drives wages down.

All of the foreign nationals I worked with could not negotiate a higher salary by changing jobs. Their employer owns their visa, so they can't just get a better job.

Big companies game the system. We should change the law. The individual should be able to take their H1B elsewhere like a green card.

</comment><comment><USER23> Wait, Amazon applies for L1 Visas. Do they offer H1B? It is given that they've filed for 700+ H1B's.

<comment><USER54> If Amazon filed 700 H1Bs presumably they offered those to people.

<comment><USER23> I was questioning the statistic of whether Amazon really filed 700H1B's or not.

<comment><USER55> [http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate- llc](http://data.jobsintech.io/companies/amazon-corporate-llc)

This data is pretty accurate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> What's so good about US that someone would like to work there and not UK for example?

<comment><USER57> Higher salary's and higher status for engineers would be the main two.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> An outsourcing firm was fined by the DOJ in 2013 for alleged visa fraud: [http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request- visa...](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-10-companies-request-visas- foreign-workers/story?id=20730536)

Note also how some of these companies spend millions of dollars in lobbying each year: [https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D00000078...](https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000000786&year=2015)

</comment><comment><USER59> You can fill any job without H-1B if you put in enough money (you may need a bit too much though).

The bigger the shortage, the bigger the spread of salary between americans and foreigners salaries. So, if a company doesn't get the visa it will pay the spread, or worse, it will produce less.

Minimizing the total loss of the companies under a constraint of total number of visas is a very simple problem mathematically speaking: by selling H1B visas to the highest bidders.

Plus, it means that these companies are compensating society for bringing more job competition.

</comment><comment><USER60> Large companies game pretty much everything, thanks to things like regulatory capture and the fact that they have the resources and the incentive to do so. I'm coming around to the idea that as a philosophy, capitalism doesn't work in the face of companies past a certain size (Adam Smith thought that they would be too inefficient to survive, which is why he didn't pay them too much mind). I don't know what to do with this thought though.

</comment><comment><USER61> Why not just increase the fees for companies that are filing a lot of H1B applications? For example, they could charge 4000$ per application for the first 100 applications and then increase it to say $8000 or $10000. Companies that are taking advantage of this, would be discouraged due to the higher fees. At the very least, it would bring down the number of applications from these companies and would increase the chances of other smaller companies.

<comment><USER62> The spin of the article is that smaller companies are more deserving, but I don't see why we should expect that in general. If Apple or FB bring in a thousand people on H1Bs, is that a problem?

<comment><USER22> Any one hire has less impact at a company employing thousands or tens of thousands of people than at a company whose employees number in the single or double digits.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> I have another "simple" idea: modify the lottery to distribute the visas more evenly.

Step 1: Randomize the list of employers with applicants.

Step 2: Give one visa to each employer in a round-robin fashion until they are exhausted or they have no more applicants. The company then decides which of its applicants gets the visa.

Assuming that there are fewer than 65k employers petitioning each year, each employer could count on at least 1 petition succeeding.

</comment><comment><USER64> Simple short term solution would be to pay special attention to applications coming from Wipro/Infosys/TCS and not treat them same as applicants from Google/Apple/Amazon. This will sure improve the odds for the next year's lottery.

And eradicate consultancies for the love of God. The relationship should not be Employee-to-Employer's payroll. Instead it should be Employee-to-Employer's product.

</comment><comment><USER65> What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor? The US is in a unique position in the world where it can absorb the very best people from around the world. Surely these people are not going to be a drain on the public funding system or social services. Just let them come in and work for american corporations.

<comment><USER8> > What's the point of putting a cap on highly skilled exceptional labor?

Mostly short-sighted people from the US who think that they're entitled to higher wages because they were born in the USA, and who do not realize that large companies can and will go abroad to seek talent, and that if things get bad enough, countries that are more open and willing to accept newcomers are where the best startup ecosystems will eventually form.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> All complicated legal systems are built by lawyers to be gamed by lawyers. I guess there's some value in generating outrage about it in that there are ad impressions to sell, but as lawyers run the government for their own benefit foremost, expect no meaningful changes.

<comment><USER67> Yes, the only people benefiting from these complicated rules are the lawyers. Here is Aman Kapoor, Founder of Immigration Voice @ CIS Ombudsman Conference pointing this out colorfully: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu7bat3S3EI)

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> This breeds mediocrity. It creates problems for both sides - USA where talent gets sidelined for less costly resources and it promotes mediocre-go-onsite culture back in countries like India - and talent gets discounted/demoralised back there too.

</comment><comment><USER69> Any system based on bureaucratic rules rather than market forces is going to get gamed.

</comment><comment><USER70> This can be fixed by forcing companies to pay H-1B's the same wage as local hires and allow them to quit and move on to other companies if they're unhappy. The benefit to companies would disappear, and so would H-1B.

</comment><comment><USER22> It seems like the lottery should be weighted in favor of more companies getting the visas instead of being totally random, although I suppose that system is also not immune to gaming.

</comment><comment><USER71> A question, how long does it take for "rest of the world" engineers with H1B visa to get Green card from the day they apply? Assume it is EB2.

</comment><comment><USER72> Say it ain't so! What, our corporations use immigration to triage short term problems instead of being forced to come up with long term solutions by closing down immigration and forcing corporations and government to come up with a solution to educate our own people??? Yeah, I know, screw those mostly black poor people in underserved communities, we'll just continue importing talent and siphoning it off of other countries to solve immediate impediments to extracting profits.

</comment><comment><USER73> Capping the visa limit per company should do it. I am sure the loophole has been lobbied in .

</comment><comment><USER74> So by "game", you mean they submit the applications early? Not sure if I follow.

</comment><comment><USER75> In other news, water is wet.

</comment><comment><USER76> Trump is the only candidate who wants to make it fair for H1Bs and Americans.

Let's make America great again, for all people!

</comment><comment><USER20> "prevailing wage"

Only in la la land does massively increasing the supply of labor maintain the wage rates.

Sand Hill Road : 7

Garage Startup : 0

</comment><comment><USER77> Large companies game everything they can. If they're public companies, their directors are required to.

</comment><comment><USER78> The entire H1B system is a "game" for big business

There is no way they cannot find people already in the USA to fill those positions, they just don't want to pay full wages/benefits.

<comment><USER79> The system needs to be revisited. I am a spanish citizen and I recently got my green card. 3 years ago, I got really lucky that my H1B got selected through the lottery. That said, that month waiting to know was really frustrating. You feel helpless. It's crazy to see how much your life can be affected because the computer chooses your number in a lottery. You feel helpless.

From my point of view, the solutions described above are steps in the right direction.

\- Limiting the number of visas per company \- Prioritizing jobs according to different criteria like salary or how much the company needs the employee \- Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the green card lottery)

<comment><USER80> > \- Limiting the amount of visas that one country can claim (similar to the > green card lottery)

How can anyone in their right mind justify per country caps that signify the racialist compromises of the Civil Rights Act.

I came to this country at 17 as an undergrad and have a US tax payer funded Masters degree from a top 5 university (not that I believe US news ranking is all that important. I've been here 9 years and can fairly say that I'm as an integrated immigrant as any, but i wont be getting a greencard anytime before 2025 because I'm an Indian. From my perch i could also find it maddening that a UX designer who happened to be born say in the EU gets their residency in a matter of months with far less investment or attachment to this country.

People don't come to this country as representatives of their government.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> ""I would expect most people would feel Atulya was making a positive contribution to the U.S. economy," he said. "There is no American who could do his job. Without Atulya, there would be no company."

Wow, you are one BART bus away from being gone. I can see making a statement like this in your request to have someone come and in their application to be a citizen. But if your entire business model depends on one person you should get another smart person to shadow them to have some kind of backup plan. I'd be scared to death to be an employee where my future depended on them being alive and healthy.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you organize your time as a Freelancer/Contractor/Consultant? - <AUTHOR>

Hey everyone,<p>I've been a freelance/contract web developer for the past few years. Technically, I'm very competent, but organizationally I'm a disaster. I'll go for days putting one project off for another, realize another has a looming deadline, drop the others, and repeat - a self-perpetuating cycle of anxiety most of the time. I have a feeling I could be happier and more efficient with a better time management strategy. Do you have any suggestions? <comment><USER2> You need two basic things.

One is at least a basic way to organize your projects and tasks, ideally in such a way that you "capture" everything that needs to be done, and also can "focus" on the few things you're prioritizing or likely to get to first. I currently use asana for this, but no amount of reading blogs and trying different apps is going to solve for the problem that you need to pick a system and just be disciplined about using it.

The second thing you need to do is apply yourself to your tasks in disciplined ways. It means finding blocks of time where you are un-distracted & in an environment that doesn't distract you, and forcing yourself to avoid obsessively checking email, facebook, twitter, and what have you. Try Rescue Time (and in particular their Get Focused feature) if you have a problem with this.

</comment><comment><USER3> Do you work from home? If so, seriously consider working somewhere else. Whether its your local college library, a coffee shop, a co-working facility, or a desk rented out of someone else's office.

I have a very nice home office setup, and I'm often able to be very productive there, but I'm far more _consistently_ productive when I'm working in a public office environment.

</comment><comment><USER4> As a contractor /freelancer i prefer to work trough agencies, ok , they take a margin, but they give you the reach and leverage to find well payed projects.In general these projects are invoiced time & material , not fixed price , it allows to put more of the development risk at the side of the customer

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been hesitant about contacting agencies because of said margins, but if the projects are that much better perhaps it is worthwhile.

<comment><USER5> Get in with the agencies but still do your own stuff. You need to network to get work and they do the vetting of your quality of work and administrate it. It's annoying they take margins but just keep making yourself valuable and you can pass up work when you want.

<comment><USER6> How would one begin a relationship with an agency? Is it possible to do on a less than full time basis?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Look for bigger projects, and do just one at a time?</comment>


Show HN: Lingohackers – new online community for language learners - <AUTHOR> https://www.lingohackers.com/ <comment><USER2> Learning italian right now, so I will give it a try. Your price screen is messed up.

[https://ibb.co/30xRrcJ](https://ibb.co/30xRrcJ)

<comment><AUTHOR> Should be fixed now, if you refresh. Thanks again for mentioning it.</comment></comment>


Jack Ma's gift to Alibaba staff for the company's 20th anniversary - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1172112073951571971 <comment><USER2> seems like you have to use it with a phone that matches the specific dimension of the holder</comment>