Show HN: Airborn – Private Google Docs Alternative - <AUTHOR> https://www.airbornos.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN! I made this. It has bulk import from Google Docs ;) thanks to a feature request from HN: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478479](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15478479)

<comment><USER3> Minor bug report: registering with a 64 character password fails. 32 characters seems to work fine.

Also a feature request: please add the ability for me to delete my account/data from your servers.

<comment><AUTHOR> It works fine for me with a 64 character password. Maybe the server errored out randomly that time. What browser are you using?

If you shoot me an email with your username, I'll delete your account and files manually.

<comment><USER4> How will you know the person emailing you is actually the owner of that username?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd send an email to the email address they signed up with to confirm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Good timing with Google incorrectly flagging some Docs as abusive? ([https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/zmz3yw/why-is- my-...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/zmz3yw/why-is-my-google- doc-locked-terms-of-service-bug))

<comment><USER6> When you were running an operation at Google scale, the challenge of fighting fraud is something that people who have not worked at that scale can only imagine. These guys will also encounter fraud at some point. And when they do so, I guarantee they will be no better at it than Google this.

<comment><USER5> If they can't access the data, then they shouldn't be able to moderate it.

There are plenty of things on the web where you can upload data and they don't use machine learning algorithms to decide if your content is "valid" or "invalid". It all depends on various tradeoffs.

<comment><USER7> Right, google drive has a big problem with public file hosting and piracy. If the content is encrypted the safe harbor becomes trivial to preserve.

<comment><USER8> > Right, google drive has a big problem with public file hosting and piracy.

I'm pretty sure this isn't a DMCA takedown case here. Google scanned the content of the file, didn't like it and removed access via an algorithm. Nobody but Google knows how it works.

If the content is encrypted then it's impossible to use google docs document viewers, editors, or collaborate online on a document directly via google doc. It becomes just a dumb file host with no added value.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This looks great! Minor nits: In what way is this an OS? Also in the US, Airborn (e.g. to be in the air) is spelled "Airborne" and it's difficult to type it without the trailing 'e' without spellcheck fixing it automagically.

<comment><AUTHOR> The most significant ways in which it's a bit like an OS are

1\. It has a Window Manager (try it out in the demo, you can drag around windows and such)

2\. It has a File System, which does encryption and compression. This makes it so that the "apps" (documents and presentations, and in the future hopefully spreadsheets) don't have to know anything about encryption. This made it very easy to port the presentations app, for example.

3\. It has a Marketplace with apps (not that they are very useful).

But yeah, since many people don't seem to like the name nor the OS-like UI, I'm considering dropping both. I'm just a bit concerned because there are many other companies named simply Airborne or Airborn. Also, integrating documents and presentations into a more unified UI would be a lot of work, since they're pretty much standalone apps today.

<comment><USER10> May I suggest Air Docs?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I feel like "Even if we get hacked" as a marketing message might send the wrong signals.

<comment><USER12> I like "even if we get hacked" With all the data breaches in the news I feel like this is a selling point many would understand. I would even go further and say "and even if we get subpoenaed" my 2cents

<comment><USER13> If you get hacked, the attacker will replace the application code. When the user logs in again (or opens a new browser window) the modified application code will decrypt all of their data and send it to the attacker. The encryption provides no protection from hackers.

Protection from hackers comes only from reviewed and verified software and hardware. The only consumer platform that comes close is iOS.

<comment><AUTHOR> Please see [https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security](https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security) or [http://blog.airbornos.com/post/2017/08/03/Transparent-Web- Ap...](http://blog.airbornos.com/post/2017/08/03/Transparent-Web-Apps-using- Service-Worker) for a description of how we solved that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> To solve this, [...use Service Workers] to install some code which can't be changed without setting off a warning to you.

How does that work? Isn't a service worker started by plain JS code?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, it is, but after that, it stays installed and runs before you open the web app the next time. In effect, this makes it trust-on-first use, just like if you'd install a desktop app which then had some secure update mechanism.

<comment><USER15> Can service worker's code ever be updated by the hacker? How does this actually work?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, it can, but whenever the Service Worker's code changes, the user is warned. There's an "updatefound" event [1] which both the web page and the old Service Worker get. I wrote a blog post with more background info at [2].

Of course, it would be better to only warn the user if the Service Worker changes if it doesn't match the version on GitHub, but that's blocked on [3].

Furthermore, there are some very edge-case situations where the Service Worker can update when Airborn OS is not open or not visible (e.g., in a hidden iframe [4]). That is why, when you register and check "Notify me before updating Airborn OS", it asks you for permission to send you notifications. Those notifications are currently only used to warn you when the Service Worker updates.

[1]: [https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Web/API/ServiceWorkerRegi...](https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Web/API/ServiceWorkerRegistration/onupdatefound)

[2]: [http://blog.airbornos.com/post/2017/08/03/Transparent-Web- Ap...](http://blog.airbornos.com/post/2017/08/03/Transparent-Web-Apps-using- Service-Worker)

[3]: [https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1208](https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1208)

[4]: [https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=773307](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=773307), but it's not a browser bug. I should file a spec bug, but I'm still waiting for a reply on [3], too.

<comment><USER15> The concept of Transparent Web Apps (TWA) is an interesting one - more so than AirbornOS itself. Any chance of packaging it (i.e. in the form of library, or make it as a SaaS) to promote adoption? This can enable more TWA and perhaps pivot yourself to become the TWA hub/directory.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I'm planning to make a library for it. It won't be quite install-and- forget, because the developer has to 1) push to GitHub or another public log before every deploy and 2) somehow let the Service Worker know where to find the latest version on GitHub. But it's definitely possible.

A TWA hub sounds interesting. I think that if you have a list of web apps that

1\. are a Transparent Web App

2\. have had a security audit

you could then add some UI in the browser that says "this web app keeps your data private". That would be useful not just for apps that use client-side encryption, but also very simple web apps, like say word counters. It's very useful for users to know whether the word counter sends their data to the server or not.

Of course, step 2 would be quite expensive, although for simple web apps it would be manageable. It would have to be financed by either the web apps themselves, or some big entity like Mozilla (which for years has had volunteers manually check browser extensions for things like this, too).

<comment><USER15> The JavaScript trust issue will always be a concern when webcrypto is used, and webcrypto is a web Api expected to be made broadly available across browsers (desktop and mobile). If somehow the concept of TWA can be made easy for developers to adopt and you pivot to handle/streamline the heavy lifting, I think you may have a much more lucrative nitch. Think of this as VeriSign for TWA. Wouldn't that be cool? Someone (i.e you or Mozilla) should do this. This really promotes the open web.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It breaks the back button (stuck in a reloading loop). That alone is enough to make me move on, regardless of the potential privacy benefits.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, it does that in Firefox, sorry about that. It works in Chrome.

<comment><USER16> Hopefully you can get it fixed in other browsers. My apologies for this, but I find it amusing that a Google services alternative works better in a Google provided browser. :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "We (the makers of Airborn OS) won't be able to read them even if we wanted to."

I take such claims with a huge grain of salt on the web. YOU serve the Javascript. YOU can change it at any time to phone home what I wrote. No point in trying to change it with the Web alone - that's how it's designed. The server must be trusted at all times.

<comment><AUTHOR> Here's a description of what we've done to solve that problem: [https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security](https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security)

<comment><USER17> That's interesting, but you're plugging holes in a waterfall I think.

For example, that first visit which installs the service worker can already deliver bad code.

Not saying you will do it, but it all relies on people trusting you not to do it. So statements like "we CAN'T read your stuff" are not true on the web. Luckily, most web users don't care about being hacked by the server - <USER2> care about owning their own data! :)

<comment><AUTHOR> > For example, that first visit which installs the service worker can already > deliver bad code.

Yes, but that is also the case when you install a desktop app. That's why Airborn OS is open source, so that you can inspect the code.

<comment><USER17> Agreed but with a desktop app, the author can sign it and the OS verifies that signature. Sadly the Web does no such thing with the top level document.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, that's true, but the author (or intermediary-who-delivers-the-binary) can also.. not sign it (deliver an unsigned version). Often, you don't have many other options than to trust the binary the website is serving you.

<comment><USER18> It also happens far less frequently and I can do it at my leisure, or even just compile it on my own.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> As for the crypto, am I correct in seeing that it uses PBKDF2 to derive an AES key from their password. And then it uses SJCL's encrypt/decrypt methods?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, that's correct. Unless Web Crypto is available, in which case it uses that.

<comment><USER20> How does password / key recovery work?

<comment><AUTHOR> When you create an account, it downloads a file which contains

\- Your username

\- Your password, encrypted with a random key.

That random key (but not your encrypted password) is sent to the server. When you request a password recovery, we send you a file by email which contains that key and with which you can decrypt your password.

That way,

\- We don't have your encrypted password

\- A random person / application can't grab your password from your computer

\- We verify that it's you who wants a password recovery (by sending you an email).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Cool project, one minor thing is that the background doesn't go very well to a wide-screen. I can see the image repeat.

</comment><comment><USER22> This app is making me ride the nostalgia train (circa 2005?) when AJAX was hot shit and everyone was making cloud OS.

It has all the same elements:

* window manager

* apps

* document editor

* dock widget

I wish you all the best OP!

</comment><comment><USER23> Can this be self-hosted?

</comment><comment><USER24> Looks really slick!

You should consider adding word support. Support for office XML formats[1] are simple enough to hand-roll.

[1]:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_XML_formats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_XML_formats)

<comment><AUTHOR> What extent of docx support is important, do you feel? Is just importing docx to html (the native format) sufficient, or should they stay as docx while editing? Should it be possible to export from html to docx?

<comment><USER24> As an end user, I don't care what format Airborn uses internally. What matters is that I can interact with documents and files sent to me by other people, which are likely authored using Microsoft Office, Libreoffice, and Google docs.

As a developer, I would ideally recommend to look into using a custom internal representation for a document and developing converters that convert between your representation and various formats. This way you won't be hindered by limitations of a specific format.

However, if you lack the resources to develop and maintain these converters yourself, look into the feasibility of leveraging LibreOffice by using a preexisting format like WordProcessingML as an internal format. You can then use LibreOffice to handle the conversion between the various formats you want to support. The downside to this is that you'll eventually outgrow WordProcessingML if you want to support futures not supported by that specific format.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The very premises that a hacker can't read my data is laughable. Unless I'm using a native app to do the decryption a hacker could gain access to my data as it leaves your server or if they can store the encryption credentials from my session and use them later

<comment><AUTHOR> When it leaves our server, the data is encrypted and not readable. To get your encryption key, they would need to execute code in your browser, and we describe how we protect against that at [https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security](https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security).

Of course, we're only talking about when _our server_ gets hacked. If _your_ computer gets hacked, you have a problem regardless of whether you're using a web app or a native app.

<comment><USER18> > To get your encryption key, they would need to execute code in your browser,

You mean like all the javascript you're sending me?

> To solve this, we're using a relatively new web technology (Service Workers) > to install some code which can't be changed without setting off a warning to > you. That code then keeps taps on all other code, and checks that it matches > the publicly available version on GitHub.

I really think you need to rethink your security here, because this just makes me even more sure that I don't trust you. It's actually a good bit laughable. If an attacker has access to your server, why should I believe that they wouldn't be able to update your github repository? (Why do I know you use different keys, don't put your private key on the server, &c?)

I have to trust you _regardless_ of any of your technology, and that's the problem. If someone has your server, there is very little I won't put past them to also have access too.

In sum, I think you're in for a world of hurt if you expect anyone who actually cares about security to trust you to never, ever make any mistakes.

> Of course, we're only talking about when our server gets hacked. If your > computer gets hacked, you have a problem regardless of whether you're using > a web app or a native app.

You're obviously just being needlessly argumentative about this. My meaning is obvious because of the context and the situation I described.

<comment><AUTHOR> > If an attacker has access to your server, why should I believe that they > wouldn't be able to update your github repository?

I don't have my GitHub password/keys on the server. Why would I have them there?

> I have to trust you _regardless_ of any of your technology, and that's the > problem.

Yes, but it's trust-on-first-use. There's a big difference between

1\. Trusting me today when I say that the GitHub keys are not on my server,

2\. Trusting me today when I say that I'm not sending your password to the server, and being able to verify that by checking the code on GitHub

and

1\. Trusting me every time you open the web app

2\. Trusting me and my hosting company that I won't ever get hacked

<comment><USER18> > I don't have my GitHub password/keys on the server. Why would I have them > there?

Because you only need an SSH key to push to github and it's not uncommon for people to leave those laying around (or to forward them with a connection!) on a server.

The better question is not "Why would you have them there?" but "How do I know you don't have them there?"

> Yes, but it's trust-on-first-use. There's a big difference between

You're showing a very fundamental misunderstanding of trust and security. I trust your code every single time I load the application. I don't care what measures you _think_ you've put into place, I will _guarantee_ you they are not fool-proof if you have a compromised system. You're insistance that it is is very disheartening and continues to degrade any trust I would have placed in you.

> 1\. Trusting me today when I say that the GitHub keys are not on my server,

No, it's trust that you will never ever ever ever place them on any device you ever own where it is accessible or that said device will never ever ever be hacked.

> 2\. Trusting me today when I say that I'm not sending your password to the > server, and being able to verify that by checking the code on GitHub

And when this changes? Must I audit the code every single time I load the code? Because yes, I need to do that to ensure you havn't changed anything.

> 1\. Trusting me every time you open the web app

I still need to do this.

> 2\. Trusting me and my hosting company that I won't ever get hacked

I still need to do this too.

<comment><AUTHOR> > And when this changes? Must I audit the code every single time I load the > code? Because yes, I need to do that to ensure you havn't changed anything.

No. The whole point of what I've done and made is to make sure you don't have to do this. The Service Worker checks all code that is coming from the server. If you've opened Airborn OS before on a computer, and don't see a notification saying that Airborn OS has been updated, it is _guaranteed_ that it's still the same code. If it _did_ change, you get a notification with a nice link to GitHub, where you can inspect the commits since last time. That code is _guaranteed_ to be identical to the new code that you will be running if you refresh Airborn OS.

<comment><USER18> I'm glad you think that. I still don't trust you, nor do I trust that you will never be breached in such a way that a malicious update will be pushed. Everything you're saying still depends on me trusting you.

What if this is my first time loading? How do I know you're not serving up new files that don't contain checks to be visitors?

Moreover, are you insinuating that you will never update any code and that expect that pop up saying you've updated the code to never appear? Do you expect people to check commits multiple times a week or a day?

So, ok, let's assume you're 100% trustworthy and a malicious actor changes the code and I get an error. Am I now forever unable to access my documents? How can I be sure that the code I'm running is really the code on GitHub after a breach? How does the code prevent changes to the initial code loaded on a request? Which could in theory manipulate the Dom before the service worker could attempt to verify the page, if I'm understanding you correctly.

But again, this all assumes that your 100% trustworthy, and you're not. You're just some person asking me to believe you'll never ever make a mistake or be coerced into a malicious action.

Also I haven't seen a mention of the aes mode you're using. Your security pages is laughably shirt given that it's literally your main selling point.

<comment><AUTHOR> > What if this is my first time loading?

Like I said, it's trust-on-first-use. This is no different from installing a desktop app.

> How do I know you're not serving up new files that don't contain checks to > be visitors?

The Service Worker is installed on your own computer, and is still there the next time you open the web app.

> How does the code prevent changes to the initial code loaded on a request? > Which could in theory manipulate the Dom before the service worker could > attempt to verify the page, if I'm understanding you correctly.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Web/API/Service_Worker_AP...](https://developer.mozilla.org/docs/Web/API/Service_Worker_API)

<comment><USER18> You're assuming the old version of the service worker will be there and running. That isn't a good assumption. It will normally be there, but it doesn't have to be. There will always be circumstances where I'm downloading it for the first time, even in the same browser and computer.

Also, step 7 on [https://w3c.github.io/ServiceWorker/#update- algorithm](https://w3c.github.io/ServiceWorker/#update-algorithm) says that updating the service worker bypasses the service worker. How do you then validate that new service workers haven't been meddled with?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's blocked on [https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1208](https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1208). However, there's also an alternative option to make updating the Service Worker unnecessary, by making a "stub" Service Worker which downloads, validates and executes the rest of the SW code. Then, whenever the "stub" Service Worker updates, it's likely a breach and we can warn the user accordingly.

<comment><USER18> Code you can't update is normally an expensive liability in the case that it's not perfect. Also, then the stub service worker is subject to the same problem it's attempting to solve.

I'm still left in a situation where I need to trust you don't mess up.

You even say it yourself:

> (Of course, we can't prevent the update, but we can at least try to convince > the user to close the web app before it steals their private keys.)

At that point, the game is up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Is this page not designed to handle 4K displays? The tiling background is really not great to look at

<comment><AUTHOR> The website is not, but when you open the app, the background should cover your whole screen. I'll try to fix the website.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> One killer feature I am looking for is numbered headers/styles. Something Google Docs still lacks and I need Word for.

</comment><comment><USER27> Pretty cool system. Considering making a VPS for this or something. Frontend can definitely use some work though.

</comment><comment><USER28> Could people stop using that headline being typed out letter by letter thing? It's annoying as hell.

</comment><comment><USER29> You can't save as .doc or .docx so its a no go for any business. Something you will need to fix.

</comment><comment><USER30> Their interface is available in Esperanto. That's already a huge point for me.

</comment><comment><USER31> I see there's source, but don't see instructions for deploying.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah. While possible, Airborn OS isn't really meant to deploy yourself. If you want that, you might be better off with nextCloud or similar. Airborn OS was built to have a service that you don't have to self-host, while still being just as secure as self-hosting: [https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security](https://www.airbornos.com/docs/security)

<comment><USER32> > Airborn OS was built to have a service that you don't have to self-host, > while still being just as secure as self-hosting

This is a better tag line than what I got when I loaded the website.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, although I worry that the average user might not know what self-hosting is, or why it is secure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I can't register. Getting "there was an error" message.

<comment><AUTHOR> Could you try again? It might be just the server erroring out under load. Also, only Chrome, Firefox and Safari are supported.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Nicely done! :)

</comment><comment><USER35> Why does it have OS in the name? Is it an operating system? (This is a question I cannot find a direct answer to on their site)

Their site makes it incredibly difficult to actually find out what this really is.

The only text visible on my screen when the page loads are the lines "Airborn OS", "Even if we get hacked, they can't read your documents" and "Collaborate in real time" which tells me essentially nothing about why I'm here, what this website is, or what you're trying to sell/advertise.

The only indication as to what this software actually does is in this Hacker News title.

For contrast, Google Doc's homepage[1], the first two things I see are "Create [persuasive/adjective] documents" followed by "With Google Docs, you can write, edit, and collaborate wherever you are. For free." This tells me basically everything I need to know, as a casual user, to understand what Google Docs is and why I might want to use it.

I hope this doesn't come across as overly critical, just some (hopefully helpful) feedback.

[1] [https://www.google.com/docs/about/](https://www.google.com/docs/about/)

<comment><AUTHOR> The line that's supposed to tell you what it is is: "Create and edit files online, securely." Is that missing for you? (I admit it's smaller and less noticeable than the lines you quoted. I'll try making it more prominent.)

A bit of explanation about the name here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15596668](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15596668)

<comment><USER36> I was confused too... Then I realised it takes about 10 seconds to appear as you animate the text in.

<comment><USER37> Now I see it! I scrolled already waaay down before that text appears.

Reminder to myself that animations in your essential content are dangerous

<comment><AUTHOR> Fair enough. There's a fast-forward button for the impatient among us (including myself), but I agree that it's non-obvious that you would need that to read the main copy.

<comment><USER38> If you make the user wait then the only button they'll be using is the back button.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> How they simulate the OS? It is amazing!

</comment><comment><USER40> I just tried your demo, I think you need some improvements in your UI

</comment><comment><USER41> doesnt work

      .

Create presentation

click insert image

give it a normal 12 mpix image from my phone camera

watch image not appear on slide

try again, still no

repeat until browser tab is out of ram and crashes

image never appears on the slide

</comment><comment><USER42> The whole idea of "cloud computing" is innately terrible on virtually every level. Those willing to entrust their data and the integrity of their data to any third party are either not very informed or not very smart(especially given the virtually daily reports of hacks, data breaches, and corporate malfeasance). This is especially true for word processing, which even the lowest capacity machines have the capability to perform without issue. If you value your data, your intellectual property, and your ability to perform technical tasks without disruption, you will be well-served to write all your own papers and documents on your own computer. Store them on your own hard drive and back them up to a flash drive that you physically control. Entrusting your data and your capacity to work to a third party should be avoided unless you have absolutely no other choice.

<comment><USER43> The odds of you losing your hard drive and flash drive in a house fire are significantly higher than the odds of you losing data on S3.

<comment><USER42> The odds of a house fire and my inability to access critical data is significantly lower than that of a cloud malfunction like the one that occurred today.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- switch/wp/2017/10/31...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- switch/wp/2017/10/31/a-mysterious-message-is-locking-google-docs-users-out-of- their-files/)

<comment><USER43> How many users wound up losing data because of that bug? In comparison, how many houses were lost to fire today?

<comment><USER42> How many people had deadlines or papers due and couldn't access their data? Many more than couldn't hand in their papers or make their deadlines because of a house fire.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Junior to Senior: A Career Advice Newsletter for Programmers - <AUTHOR> https://www.junior-to-senior.com/ <comment><USER2> Sounds kind of interesting, but there does not seem to be any visible archive, even one limited to a sample, and not clear if it's linked to any other project or company. Therefore, I'm reluctant to input my email address.</comment>


Infecting Android applications – The new way - <AUTHOR> https://orderofsixangles.com/en/2020/04/07/android-infection-the-new-way.html <comment><AUTHOR> The new and efficient way to infect android applications without using vulnerabilies or bugs. With PoC</comment>


Fshell – Terminal Emulator App for Symbian OS - <AUTHOR> https://sourceforge.net/projects/fshell <comment><AUTHOR> _fshell_ was amazing (and still is!) app, and I must say it was one of the most amazing Symbian 9.x app projects, but it released a little bit late.

Also, later it enhanced by desktop app for remote access & remote shell program communication with Symbian OS devices where _fshell_ is installed.[0,1]

 _fshell_ was like _Termux_ in our days is.

[0] [https://www.qt.io/blog/2011/04/15/introducing- muxcons](https://www.qt.io/blog/2011/04/15/introducing-muxcons)

[1] [https://sourceforge.net/projects/muxcons](https://sourceforge.net/projects/muxcons)</comment>


The Silicon Valley of South America? - <AUTHOR> http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110401/the-silicon-valley-of-south-america.html

<comment><USER2> i live here (santiago). i'm pretty insular (work from home for companies in the states or uk), but there is a noticeable uptick happening. people i've only met online are coming out for jobs and things like python, ruby, and "entrepreneur" groups are springing up. there's now talk of arranging a conference later this year. i'll see if i can dig up the details... [later] here you go - <http://www.startechconf.com/>

</comment><comment><USER3> And to think, they downvoted me when I said that Google should make an effort to snap up startups in each Mediterranean climate in the world! (in the Google South African startup incubator story)

<comment><USER4> One of the things I told the last Google guy who called me was that I _do not want_ to live in a place with a crappy climate: Dublin, Zurich, London, etc... Sorry, life's too short.

<comment><USER3> Actually, I remember a Microsoft internship presentation in Mountain View where several employees were talking about how they preferred Silicon Valley to Redmond... makes sense!

Does Australia have a startup scene? How about Southern Europe? Perhaps Google ought to invest in Tunisia or even the rest of North Africa if the region stabilizes...

<comment><USER4> If Italy'd get their act together, some good things could happen here. The University of Padova is where Galileo spent the best years of his life, and also, more recently, educated this guy: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Faggin>

The climate isn't spectacular here, but it sure beats the rainy Google-Europe centers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Related story from yesterday's National Post:

[http://www.nationalpost.com/todays- paper/Innovative+innovati...](http://www.nationalpost.com/todays- paper/Innovative+innovation+push/4593011/story.html)</comment>


Ask HN: How to Write a Product Spec? - <AUTHOR> I've heard Michael Seibel say this multiple times. Write down your product spec when making an MVP and when iterating on it with a team too. Can anyone here help with some examples please? Thanks! <comment><USER2> The product specs I write are for clients and thus commercial in confidence. But the following observations might help:

Basically write two versions, one from a user perspective, i.e. what problem does it address and how does it solve it; the other from an implementation perspective, i.e. diagramming the major blocks and how they communicate with one another. Ideally, all of these being referenced back to the user perspective.

Finally, I find it useful to write a marketing plan, one that identifies the target demographic, their attributes and a SWOT / competitive products / markets analysis.

Sometimes I feel that I am a hybrid of a technical writer and devil's advocate to my clients.

</comment><comment><USER3> Business model canvas is the best I've seen for this. It's designed to be really easy to iterate, and identify what parts link to other parts.

If you're writing for engineers, it's still similar - what is the problem and how does this solve it?

I've done a few startups, and so far we've never really needed a technical product spec to hit project market fit. Partly because it's usually far better than the competition, e.g. a native app with lots of features vs a static competitor app built in phonegap.

Partly because it's intuitive but hard to put into words. We had a health recipe app. One of the most used features was a BMI calculator. I couldn't explain why we needed it, but it was half an hour to build (with unit tests!) and a chat with one customer said she had our app and the competitor's app because the competitor app had a BMI calculator. It would literally take less time to build it than write a spec for it.

The other questionable feature was a dodgy in app chat. It wasn't live, more like a single thread message board. Customers loved it and it provided most of our feedback. We ended up branching some WhatsApp groups from it instead of building a full thing. Part of the reason is that people use a healthy recipe app to commit to losing weight, and they wanted some company. Especially those who had unsupportive husbands and family. Or those who didn't know where to start.

So to reinforce, you have an idea of what the problem is, and what it looks like when it's solved. You should also have a feedback funnel early on to see how you're doing, though this more face to face with customers rather than an engineering thing.

</comment><comment><USER4> Write a spec... What sage startup advice by YC lol. Who would have thought.

Seriously though check out Shape Up: basecamp.com/shapeup

It's a whole book on how 37signals makes the sausage. Goes over how they spec out a feature, decide on what should be built, etc. They're a team so not everything applies to individuals but there's a lot of useful ideas. They give concrete examples and case studies. Including specific examples of specs.

<comment><USER5> Write a spec! Not sure if that's frowned or loved these days, as one might be accused of so called "waterfall" when they should be "agile". Anyway I love specs for UI, UX, sequence and sometimes for technical design but if a few bulletpoints in Jira does it I like that too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Curious to see if solo developers write up their product specs or just go with the flow?</comment>


Project Gregory – Global solution for people without home - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/913543095/project-gregory

<comment><USER2> I have no idea how you guys are going to be able to pull this off, but I hope it works. I made a small contribution. Good luck!</comment>


Transit of the Hubble Space Telescope during the 2012 transit of Venus - <AUTHOR> http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/venus_hst_transit.html <comment><USER2> These photos to me show that we are in the age of hardware, where the cost of producing high quality images of this caliber are possible by a dude, with a truck, in Australia.

<comment><USER3> This "dude" has been doing this for a long time. He is famous for such images. He has a passion for such convergences. Visit his website (root of the link) for more. He also did the solar eclipse + ISS : <http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/eclipse110104_solar_transit.html></comment></comment>


Why we stopped raising until we no longer need the money - <AUTHOR> http://www.techfounder.net/2012/08/21/why-we-stopped-raising-until-we-no-longer-need-the-money/

<comment><USER3> Some constructive (hopefully) feedback: I had a hard time figuring out what Binpress actually does.

"Build software faster with mature code solutions that let you focus on the interesting and unique parts of your product" and "Binpress is a discovery service and marketplace for source-code components. We bridge the gap between open-source and commercial software, improving the process of software development."

That last statement is content-free fluff. If you would say, "Buy source code snippets and packages" or something, I'd get it immediately.

I'm also not sure you should call anything a "discovery service." Nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks, "I need to find a discovery service today." Pintrest is a discovery service (so is HN) but they don't say that, they say "Browsing pinboards is a fun way to discover new things and get inspiration from people who share your interests."

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback, it is helpful. We are constantly trying different messaging on the homepage to see what works best and we still haven't found the magic words.

We can't say "buy source-code snippets" for a couple of reasons - first, we have a mix of free and commercial open-source, and second we do not publish "snippet" sized packages (see our publication guidelines). Our goal is to create an inventory of curated, professional solutions to common needs in software development, whether free or commercial (as long as we verify the publisher is committed to supporting it).

You are probably right about the 'discovery-service' part as a user, we don't use that messaging in our homepage anymore.

<comment><USER4> If you're having trouble describing what it is (and so far, failing to make it sound compelling) then it will be difficult for prospective customers to decide if they want your service.

I keep seeing this sort of stuff. "Curated discovery service" is a weasel phrase for "middle man", a species now practically extinct in many spheres of activity thanks to Google and the web.

So, you're a middle man. What can you get that I can't get for myself? What do you know that I don't? What value are you adding? What are your curatorial skills? Prove it. There is your web copy.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not having any trouble, but thanks for the advice. I guess you never heard of Airbnb, Fab or dozens of other online marketplaces (sorry, "middle man") that have become huge businesses. Lucky for them they didn't know that Google and the web made them extinct.

Thanks for sharing.

<comment><USER5> Wow, that's a really rude and sarcastic reaction to somebody who's just trying to be friendly. I also think his comments about your messaging were spot on.

<comment><AUTHOR> In my opinion that was a really ignorant and degrading comment, as opposed to others who tried to offer real feedback.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _If you have an idea for a product and can talk a good game, build some mockups or a basic prototype and try to raise with that._

That's assuming you live in Silicon Valley or can target their investors. Elsewhere, especially outside US, it's extremely difficult to raise any significant funding unless you are already huge.

<comment><AUTHOR> You can always travel to Silicon Valley, you don't have to live there - <USER2> live in a global village nowadays. Even though I now live in Mountain View, the funding attempt I mention in the post was done on a 3 week visit to the valley (from Israel, no less).

<comment><USER6> _I now live in Mountain View_

I rest my case.

EDIT to elaborate: Your case just proves my point. You lived in Israel and failed to get funding from Silicon Valley. Now you're in Mountain View, presumably (I'm assuming a lot here, I know) because there's a better startup climate.

Have you ever tried raising in Israel. I understand the funding scene is very active over there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure what your case is - if read my comment, you'd notice I said I traveled to silicon valley from Israel. Just get on a plane and you're here, if it's important enough for you.

Naturally, I did try to raise in Israel. The funding scene there is not active at all, perhaps you meant the startup scene. There's very few funds that do seed rounds and they do a very small amount of investments per firm (1-2 a year). The angel scene is also underdeveloped. Israel is not a good place to raise seed money.

<comment><USER6> That's really interesting position, considering all the news I keep hearing about how Israel has a great approach to technology etc. Where I live (Croatia), Israel is the poster boy of the right approach to startups and investing outside the Valley...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > Funding will almost surely get you coverage on the major tech sites. For > many startups, their main audience is the readers of those tech sites

 _That_ is a mistake too many of us make, I think, and one of the key things you can learn from someone like patio11. Between "I could build that in a weekend", open source, and a fairly critical audience, I think techies are not that great a market for a lot of things. Find a group out there that's not tech savvy, and make something that solves their problem, and they'll think it's wonderful magic.

<comment><USER8> We haven't raised a cent and we got decent coverage:

[http://www.lostremote.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso-offers-low- co...](http://www.lostremote.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso-offers-low-cost-way-to- get-social-tv-updates-on-air/) [http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso- wants-to-help-tv-...](http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso-wants-to- help-tv-stations-put-your-tweets-and-facebook-comments-on-air/) [http://pandodaily.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso-aims-to- disrupt-b...](http://pandodaily.com/2012/05/07/vidpresso-aims-to-disrupt- broadcasters-signs-up-broadcasters-as-customers/)

The tech press actually helped with customer acquisition because people were more willing to trust us. I think if you just spend your time meeting the right people, you can get coverage if you, by just being you, can prove you're not a douche / self promoter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you have a company that has good margins, decent numbers, and is not particularly viral, it sounds like your company is a candidate for a business loan, not an equity investment.

At the risk of over generalizing, early stage VC are interested in portfolio investing in high risk / high return companies.

Well-run, non-viral, near-profitable businesses that could use an influx of cash might be better off with a loan that won't dilute the owners' equity in the company.

<comment><AUTHOR> Investment means much more than money, if you get the right investor. Connections, exposure and social proof that can help you expand your company in many more ways than with just money.

I can think of many similar companies that weren't really viral but used an investment as springboard to get huge by developing strong customer acquisition channels (for example, Mint).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Isn't being in closed beta a good solution to this paradox?

<comment><USER11> I was thinking the same thing. Could even an open beta be considered a 'not launched yet' and give you an out should potential investors want to know why the growth hasn't been demonstrated yet? What would the downside to an open beta be vs a closed beta?

<comment><USER12> You need to be careful with the 'closed beta' stage, It's really easy to get "sucked" into that state for a longer period than you thought and blame all of your shortcomings on being in closed beta. Don't forget to ship.

Regarding the 'open beta' - I don't think it's applicable, if you're open to users and anyone can register and growth hasn't happened yet, investors will spot that.

<comment><USER11> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> From what I can tell, and based on my completely anecdotal analysis of the situation, "raising based on a couple of mockups" is almost guaranteed to result in an acquihire.

Look at when SEOMoz and Github raised money: they were already multi-million dollar businesses. Raising money was entirely justified.

If you're a B2B product with a revenue model, you don't need funding, you need patience.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree to a point - you don't need funding, as we've found out the hard way, reaching break even point without it. Funding can provide a strong springboard that accelerates your growth at the critical first steps. Not to mention, that best kind of investors give your startup a network of connections and exposure that is very hard to duplicate on your own (see YC startups for example).

<comment><USER13> I just totally disagree that funding in the "critical first steps" is what a business that has a revenue model requires.

Basically, I have come to be of the opinion that the types of businesses that need funding for critical first steps are B2C businesses with no revenue model other than advertising which need a huge critical mass with a lot of infrastructure investment before it can become profitable.

If you have revenue, you don't need a springboard. You just need to wait. There isn't one dry cleaner in New York. I love Chris Savage's post on this topic where he's talking about the idea creation process before Wistia and saying basically that although there are a bunch of companies that already do what you're doing, it's _really hard_ to get people to pay attention online and saturation takes a really long time.

If there's only two of you, break even point is really low, and that's all you need.

 _Some are preoccupied with glamour and glitz, Actin all boogee and making big movies, But I'll be in the cut call me Incognito, Busy makin joints that will bump for my people, You're listening to a man who was something for nothing, Stay in me forever head, never be frontin_

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree that not every business needs to raise. If your goal is to slowly build a lifestyle business, there's no rush. If you want to become huge, funding helps a lot. Being patient means you give opportunity to others to bypass you while they raise - we had 2 funded competitors rise up after we launched. Luckily, we outperformed them both, and one of them will soon become an affiliate, but if they had stronger teams the outcome could've been the opposite.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Introducing Quil: A Practical Quantum Instruction Set Architecture - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@rigetticomputing/introducing-quil-a-practical-quantum-instruction-set-architecture-a684f0590a0c#.vgbavkqvi <comment><USER2> The github link at the bottom gives a 404

<comment><USER3> They did say "Look for the source for the code _soon_ ..." so I'm guessing it's coming.

You can see some example code in the paper though: [http://arxiv.org/abs/1608.03355](http://arxiv.org/abs/1608.03355)

<comment><USER4> Yep it's coming, and that's right where you'll find it -[I'm one of the authors].

Really great to see people interested. Happy to answer questions in the meantime.</comment></comment></comment>


Designing a simple app interface with Bootstrap (video) - <AUTHOR> https://convertkit.com/app/nathanbarry/bootstrap-interface

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN: A lot of friends had been asking me about using Bootstrap in their apps, so I put together this video tutorial. It's fairly basic, but I think beginners will find it helpful.</comment>


Apple Is Said to Redesign Online Store App with Recommendations - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-28/apple-is-said-to-redesign-online-store-app-with-recommendations <comment><USER2> "set to" not "said to"

<sigh!></comment>


TACK: "pinning" certs to a self-chosen signing key, complements/replaces CAs - <AUTHOR> http://tack.io/draft.html

<comment><USER2> IMO this is exactly the kind of thing we need right now -- iterative change for the better instead of coming up with yet another "let's just reset the Internet" plan.

I realize that there are limitations to this kind of evolutionary plan -- namely only achieving local maxima -- but for now it seems to be the best way forward. As opposed to natural evolution we can still choose at a later date (perhaps at greater overall cost) to go for a completely different scheme if we deem it necessary/justified.

EDIT: s/additive/iterative/

</comment><comment><USER3> TACK needs Browser support ASAP. It's around since over a year and it seems dead... I hope Chrome and Firefox pick it up soon.

</comment><comment><USER4> See my question from yesterday: How does something like Tack fare in a mass certificate revocation scenario like Heartbleed: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7554302](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7554302)

<comment><USER5> You handle it in the same way you handle rolling new certificates with TACK. No panic.

You just update your web servers with new TACK signatures corresponding to your new certs.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hat tip to tptacek [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562185)

</comment><comment><USER6> It seems like a great idea, so what is holding it back?

<comment><USER7> Browser support. We've got major internet sites on board waiting to deploy it, but despite some early indications of support, the browsers have not been forthcoming. We even tried writing the code for them, but to little avail.

My sense is that Google is all-in on Certificate Transparency right now, and doesn't want anything to distract from that. However, I think a successful CT deployment is a long time coming still, and TACK could have been out two years ago. My sense is that Mozilla is just understaffed and/or waiting to follow Google's lead in this area.

Ultimately, this is the frustrating thing about trying to improve the state of secure communication today. Most of the levers are in the hands of the browser vendors, which makes it difficult for those of us on the outside to help iterate things forward.

<comment><USER8> You can see the CT peoples' comparison of CT to other technologies here: [http://www.certificate-transparency.org/comparison](http://www.certificate- transparency.org/comparison)

One serious concern I see about TACK from the browser's perspective is the support burden of dealing with server admins' lost TACK keys. HPKP has similar risks, but it seems to manage this risk in a way that is more comfortable for browsers to deal with. However, I also think that at least at Mozilla we've become more worried about the risks of HPKP than we were originally, and so there are plans to build the same kind of mechanism for dealing with DoS due to HPKP that a browser would need to build for TACK. It may be too late to get browsers to do TACK because they seem pretty committed to HPKP already and it is harder to convince them to do both. However, if you still want to try then I'd suggest presenting more clearly how browsers could deal with the "I lost my TACK key" scenerio.

The other major negative thing about TACK is that it requires the server admin to do work that can't be automated in a way that is reasonable (because the TACK key should not live on the web server). HPKP leaves more of an open door for future web servers to automatically apply it automatically (e.g. by generating pins for the end-entity, intermediates, and root keys in the chain, on the assumption that the server admin will never lose control of the private key of the end-entity at the same time he/she needs to switch CAs) or with very simplified UI.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is the first step towards a more secure internet, but that won't solve anything.

I think countries need to build up independent, public groups of computer experts who can actively work at approving softwares and security protocols and infrastructures. Something like the FDA for internet security. Don't know if it's impossible or not, but there isn't anything official about internet security in the world yet, apart from universities and the AES algorithm.</comment>


Fast Numerical Software - <AUTHOR> https://bandgap.io/blog/fast_numerical_software/ <comment><USER2> Great stuff. Looking forward to see it running.</comment>


Ask YC: Anybody want to strike while the iron is hot and hack global capitalism itself? - <AUTHOR>

Chaos can suck.  But it can also provide wonderful opportunities since it is a time when institutional grips are weakened and during which confusion leaves room to squeak different things through that would have never been possible before.
Here's what I bring to the table; you pick the order of importance according to your experience.
- A vivid, 2 syllable URL that just grabs you, never lets go and keeps growing on you; it also contains the framework for the entire business model, so once you understand what the business is up to, it's hard to imagine what the heck competitors would call themselves.
- A 2-page business plan/presentation; the first page communicates the idea,the second the execution. Lots of pictures and whitespace.
- A business model built around immediate and continuously sustainable profitability on the top end first, meaningful social impact second, and rapid buildability.  There's no new "app" to build - if you know your way around the craigslist stack and can replicate something like cl, but on a much smaller features scale (although with greater eventual user scalability), then it's possible for you to build it.  And the business model is simple and direct enough to understand right away, no "Start, then "something", then success!"  The "something" is the starting point.
- A willingness to share equity according to your contribution; if you have the know-how and resourcefulness to build it, you can share an equal percentage with the rest of how ever many people are needed for a core founding team
- Hopefully it won't be necessary (see above), but if you prefer cash to equity in these shaky times, professional connections to a UAE-based private equity group (11 years business/personal relationship with key person) that can invest quickly no matter the state of U.S. markets.  But this may not even be necessary since if its built, it can be turned on, if it's on, it has a way to make (ad-free)profit ASAP.
If any of this seems interesting, send something you feel is relevant (intro email, questions, resume, project work, your own ideas on the subject): risingsun "at" ymail "dot" com.
Unfortunately due to time constraints it is not possible at the moment to monitor this forum for replies, so if you'd like to communicate, please use the email above.
Thanks for reading to this point and enjoy the weekend. <comment><USER2> So, not only did you just drop in to the HN community on a lark, with purely selfish intent.. but you are actually admitting to us that you have no plans to participate in the future? You are under the impression that this will be an effective strategy to change the world? You are about as far away from success as humanly possible.

</comment><comment><USER3> Moot point since you're not listening (there's your first mistake), but:

> There's no new "app" to build - if you know your way around the craigslist > stack and can replicate something like cl, but on a much smaller features > scale (although with greater eventual user scalability), then it's possible > for you to build it

What's to stop me from waiting till you launch, copying everything you've got, listening to customers better, and keeping all the equity for myself?

<comment><USER4> What's keeping you from waiting until this launches and then taking the idea and running with it? The fact that this'll never be launched.

This is actually a good business model. For years, people have been toiling with the three stage model: 1) whatever, 2) ???, 3) profit. This new method, that cuts it down to 1) ???, 2) profit, is revolutionary! It'll totally undercut everyone on efficiency.

<comment><USER3> Unfortunately, Wall Street has already figured out an even better model:

1) Profit!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A _two_ page business plan?! My god! How can you fail?! Here I am with my one page plan like a sucker... Why oh why didn't I think of that?

</comment><comment><USER6> This is why "idea guys" can't have nice things.

</comment><comment><USER7> A call to action! Followed by nothing!</comment>


This Photographer Couldn't Afford His Dream Camera, So He 3D Printed One - <AUTHOR> https://petapixel.com/2017/06/02/photographer-couldnt-afford-dream-camera-3d-printed/ <comment><USER2> Yes please. Now to find the design files..</comment>


Racket 6.2 - <AUTHOR> http://download.racket-lang.org/ <comment><USER2> > The package manager supports a direct references to Git repositories via > "git://[...]", "[http://](http://)[...].git", and > "[https://](https://)[...].git" URLs. (Previously, only references to GitHub > were supported.)

This, please, I need to see this in all languages (I'm looking at you, R)</comment>


Java is losing the battle for the modern Web. Can the JVM save the vendors? - <AUTHOR> http://andigutmans.blogspot.com/2008/03/java-is-losing-battle-for-modern-web.html <comment><USER2> I don't know, does this article even say anything of substance?

 _Multi-core systems work very well with the LAMP stack's multi-process paradigm. With the chip industry now focusing primarily on multi-core as opposed to hyper-threading technology, the benefits of multi-threaded environments such as the JVM are not substantially realized on today's hardware. Instead the multi-process paradigm delivers more stability and reliability._

That makes me think the author doesn't even know what he's talking about.</comment>


Ask HD: Tools for setting up new installation of Windows 10 - <AUTHOR> I would like to get rid of all the cruft: * Cortana, Store, Weather, Xbox, Mixed Reality Portal, etc. * Turn off telemetry * Configure privacy settings * Configure User Interface elements * Install Software
After much searching, I found this script: https://github.com/Disassembler0/Win10-Initial-Setup-Script/
I was wondering if there are other tools people are using.
Chocolatey and Ninite seem to be good ways to install software but not clean up / configure Windows. <comment><USER2> Powershell! You can manage a headless wildfires installation 100%.

Get-appxpackage ... | remove-appxpackage</comment>


Ask HN: How can I make HackerNode App better? - <AUTHOR>

Hello HN,
I am going to devote this month to making HackerNode app awesome and feature complete. Would love to hear  any suggestions for improvements.
Also if there was a monthly subscription fee, what would be a price you would be willing to pay.
Thanks
Sumeru
PS: In case you have'nt checked out HackerNode app, you can get it from http://www.nodemesh.net/hackernode <comment><USER2> I'm using HNode App on iPad and I have sometimes terrible problems with opening target website - it would be great if I could change default behaviour of clicking on list item - it should be changeable if it opens comments or website. Also - it took me ages to find "send to" button (red (+), on the bottom of article preview) - in my opinion it's totally unintuitive, that instapaper / fb / twitter is placed there - they should be available through right bottom menu - just by "open in safari" / "copy link buttons".

</comment><comment><USER3> You have a fantastic app and I use it daily. I would like the ability to email a link to the HN comments page. Right now I'll email myself the external page if I find it interesting but there are sometimes I'd like to receive the HN page. Being able to bookmark or save a HN page would be useful too.

</comment><comment><USER4> Thank you for your contribution. It makes reading hacker news on my iphone much more pleasant.

</comment><comment><USER5> Fonts</comment>


Axel Springer Goes After iOS 9 Ad Blockers in New Legal Battle - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/11/23/axel-springer-goes-after-ios-9-ad-blockers-in-new-legal-battle/ <comment><USER2> _Axel Springer is not the only publisher that's taking a confrontational approach to dealing with ad blockers, The FT recently reported. U.K. newspaper City AM banned ad blockers from its website; U.K. broadcasters ITV and Channel 4 have now done the same; and the Washington Post redirects readers to a subscription page, or asks them to sign up to newsletters, or disable their ad-blocking software. Even Yahoo has gotten in on the action, blocking users from their email when they have AdBlock running._

This goes right to the heart of the issue so I felt it was worth highlighting: Who cares if they lock out their content? There are literally millions of news sources on the Internet, all (hilariously) copying each other's posts on what's trending in news, with often amusing (or horrifying) results when the stories are wrong. Oh, I can't read this story on Yahoo? Well I guess I'll just have to pick from the ten thousand freaking other copies of the same information available elsewhere.

We have TOO. MANY. NEWS. WEBSITES. The ad space isn't worth shit because the same ads are being pushed on millions of pages many times over, and the public is so desensitized to them at this point that the click rate is dropping like a safe.

If you work for one of these publishers, get a new job. Fast.

<comment><USER3> I'm totally in favor of this type of solution. The go-to justification around here is "it's my computer, I'll use it to display anything I want, just because you served me data over HTTP doesn't give you the right to dictate what's on my screen."

I think it's is a pretty compelling argument, but if we're being fair then the provider should have the right NOT to serve you data based on what you intend to do with it.

<comment><USER4> > I think it's is a pretty compelling argument, but if we're being fair then > the provider should have the right NOT to serve you data based on what you > intend to do with it.

As an ad-blocker: I absolutely agree, however, there's no shortage of people offering me the same exact content elsewhere. Basically, supply and demand end up in the consumer's favor.

Likewise: "...essentially all of the ad supported sites I visit are diversions" \- [https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/AdSupportedWebD...](https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/web/AdSupportedWebDeathView)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's pretty stupid what they try to do to get even more money

They somehow managed to get a law in place which prohibits quoting of even small passages online (i.e. Google News) without paying for it. What did Google do? Simply removed them from the results, they tried to sue and lost. Now they gave Google permission to include them for free. What about the smaller services? Who cares about those - loads of news aggregators shut down in response.

Now that (some) adblockers have been ruled legal they sued a bunch of people (youtuber, the adblock forum) for providing instruction on how to get around the anti-adblocker wall they put in Fun times

<comment><USER6> Even more money? The delicious graphs at [http://www.bildblog.de/auflage.php](http://www.bildblog.de/auflage.php) show twelve consecutive years of decline. That's not "even more money".

<comment><USER7> That's only offline sales. They know this business is dead and aggressively push their online services.

I don't see a downward trend in their over-all profits: [http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/451654/umfrage...](http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/451654/umfrage/gewinn- der-axel-springer-se-quartalszahlen/)

<comment><USER8> > Größter Wachstumstreiber ist das Geschäft mit Kleinanzeigen im Internet wie > Immobilien-, Job- und Autoportalen. Hier verfolge Springer eine "sehr > aggressive Wachstumsstrategie", sagte Döpfner. Das Ergebnis in diesen > Rubrikenmärkten kletterte binnen Jahresfrist um 35,2 Prozent auf 221 > Millionen Euro und steuerte damit rund 44 Prozent des gesamten > Konzerngewinns bei. [1]

But most of their profits are generated by their online markets for cars, houses and jobs, not their digital journalism.

[1] [http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article138064544/Digitalstrate...](http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article138064544/Digitalstrategie- bringt-Axel-Springer-Gewinne-ein.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I started using iOS ad blockers on day one. Judging by the amount I have to recharge - I'm on pre paid - I use about 50% of the data I used to and spend proportionally less.

I also stopped using the Twitter and Facebook apps in favour of the mobile web sites. I only see Twitter ads now.

There really needs to be another model.

<comment><USER10> Totally agree. The ad-subsidised business model is flawed on so many levels. Personally the biggest one for me is that the evolution of ads moves less away from information and more towards emotional manipulation.

Question is - what other model? Would you give money to news?

<comment><USER4> personally I wouldn't, but that's because I can get the news via 1000 other sites for free. I freely admit it's not fair, but I'm not sure what the answer is

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > "The results are beyond our expectations," said Springer chief exec Mathias > Döpfner at the time. "Over two-thirds of the users concerned switched off > their adblocker." He also noted that the Bild.de website received an > additional 3 million visits from users who could now see the ads in the > first two weeks of the experiment going live.

Then trying to shut down ad blockers by legal routes must be completely pointless if just asking people is so effective?

</comment><comment><USER12> Soon in the news: Comcast sues to make going to the bathroom during commercial breaks illegal.

<comment><USER13> Sssht, you might give them ideas. I am cynical enough to believe that they will add a IR heartrate sensor (a la XBox One Kinect) to 'pause entertainment' when nobody is in the room.

Formulated like that, it even sounds like a feature ;).

<comment><USER14> Spotify won't let you mute during adverts and will pause if it detects the system volume drop quickly.

They can't detect the volume on external speakers. But there's no reason why they couldn't with a microphone.

<comment><USER15> iHeart, at least on Android, will download (using precious cell bandwidth) video ads and play them, during which time it disables the "back" button. You're forced to let the ad play. You can still switch to another app while this is going on, but IIRC you can't turn off the audio part of the ad by doing so. My "solution" when listening to iHeart is to keep the Android settings app running with the iHeart app selected, ready to "Force stop" it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Oh well. It's like Music Lables vs Napster all over again.

The funny twist is, Springer gives away content for free. They just imply that there is "some kind of contract" between a website provider an a visitor, that the visitor has to "pay" for the content by viewing Ads.

Most people (especially in Germany) don't block Ads because they hate Ads. They block because they hate tracking, slow websites, bandwidth usage etc.

The sad thing is, most of the big publishers, that rally against ad blocker don't have the guts to just go subscription-only.

Since they love their old business model so much, why not try that on the web? Because showing Ads and sell visitors to tracking and ad networks is so much easier.

Just to clarify: If the visitor has the choice to block ads, publishers should have the choice to block adblocker-enabled visitors.

<comment><USER17> Is it that they "don't have the guts" or that they just don't have a product offering enough value to support itself on a subscription model?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> i was more startled to learn in passing that yahoo was blocking people's email if they blocked ads. that one seems particularly desperate, given how the last thing yahoo needs now is more reasons for people to abandon them.

<comment><USER19> That one is right along the lines of 'the beatings will continue until morale improves'.

<comment><USER20> Or the beatings will continue until morale improves unless you notice the door is unlocked.

<comment><USER19> Yes, you'd think they knew about that before they made that policy. It really baffles me how someone might think this was a good enough idea to actually implement and that nobody stopped it baffles me even more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> So, they've already lost in the German courts vs. ABP; why do they get to keep going after other companies with the same bogus arguments?

<comment><USER22> Quite obviously, they are trying the American model of suing everybody in sight again and again until they give up.

<comment><USER23> I wonder how much all this litigation will cost their bottom line.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Axel Springer should really read up on the Streisand effect. If they hold on a bit longer the whole world will know about these absolutely terrible ad blockers.

</comment><comment><USER24> Which means that all the data minimizing the scale of the blocking was a lie, people are massively blocking ads and the whole ad industry is dying faster than its player want to admit.

</comment><comment><USER25> My solution is pretty simple: censor axel springer and their websites from my entire network. Blockr or not, nobody on my network and VPN needs to see their filthy pages anymore.

<comment><USER26> > on my network and VPN

Do you run a network other people use? Are you really going to censor Springer because of a personal opinion?

<comment><USER25> Well those axel brats are suing out of personal opinion too, your point?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Two things seemingly are true:

1\. information is a commodity (including most news)

2\. information is valuable

I'm looking at this problem right now because which answer to this question is chosen is critical in shaping how we as a society function (and what the online landscape will look like).

Do people (in general) care about good information sources (your own personal criteria) to give money to them (by whitelisting, paying for subscription, donations etc)?

Full disclosure: I'm working on a project that is trying to tackle this problem.

</comment><comment><USER27> Good reason to buy Blockr.</comment>


Rate My Startup: Vye Music - <AUTHOR>

Hey HN,
Presenting: Vye Music. Recently re-launched / re-vamped, it's a mashup of Last.fm and YouTube (http://vyemusic.com) with some funky extra sauce to spice things up. The idea was to create something to take advantage of YouTube's awesome music catalogue, without just using the normal YouTube search API (which other YouTube music sites do for some reason) and present it all in a visually appealing way, which I think music fans and general internet users will appreciate.
By using the Last.fm music data (I hope) the experience is a bit cleaner, and there's some additional functionality with being able to upload your iTunes library (as an XML file) and move all your tune-age to the cloud. Of course the usual playlists / library thing is all there as well, and radio mode for the more adventurous audiophiles out there!
Anyway check it out, let me know what you think works/doesn't and if you have any ideas for how to improve the thing. Really appreciate any feedback, and maybe you'll find Vye Music an enjoyable music site (or maybe not, let me know why :D) --
Thankss <comment><AUTHOR> Clickalicious: <http://vyemusic.com/></comment>


0AD Pathfinder Design [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/0ad/0ad/blob/master/docs/pathfinder.pdf <comment><USER2> As for an effective A* algorithm, bidirectional A* turns out to be both rugged and efficient.

Basically, grab some graph paper. Put your left index finger on start. Right index finger on end.

Move your fingers towards each other, avoiding obstacles as you go.

Wherever they happen to meet, the path formed by the trail of both your fingers combined is the path to use.

That's the general idea. It's important to trace from both simultaneously, otherwise you run into some degeneracies.

<comment><USER3> Just as a side note: bidir A* is not that straight forward as you need a special finish condition to keep the algorithm optimal. (For games you probably don't need this but for tests and real world road routing it is important IMO)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > The long-range pathfinder can be simpler and more efficient if it has a grid > representation of the map.

> (Since our maps are large and open [] and must support dynamic generation [] > and dynamic modification [], a grid is likely better than a nav mesh)

Can someone explain why this is the case? I feel like using a grid will result in them generating the equivalent of a fresh nav mesh every time they want to pathfind, as opposed to using a cached navmesh (generated when terrain is loaded) which they can modify in place every time a dynamic event occurs (building placed).

</comment><comment><USER5> I like how this article gives some insights on how to go from A* to a practical AI pathfinder. You always hear about 'use A* for pathfinding', only to get yourself stuck in the actual wiring the A* algorithm into your application.

<comment><USER6> I really recommend [http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Example-Wordware- Developer...](http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Example-Wordware-Developers- Library/dp/1556220782). I don't recall if it contained a segment of Behaviour Trees at this moment, but read up on BTs and replace any section containing FSM with that.

<comment><USER7> Really an excellent book. I've been through a bunch, but I think that is still the best general-purpose, entry-level game AI book on the market.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Does anyone know if this is basically the same sort of Algorithm used in say the age of Age of Empires and Age of Mythology games?

<comment><USER8> Yep! It's based pretty heavily off how AoE and later games do it.

<comment><USER9> Are those games open source or has it been possible to reverse engineer the algorithm, or ...?

<comment><USER8> Engineers have presented some of how their algorithms work at conferences and in other places.

<comment><AUTHOR> Know of any video links to talks that you could share?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As an aside, 0AD is quite impressive as a 'golden-days' RTS. I've had lots of fun in it with my friends.

</comment><comment><USER11> Really nice docu. Regarding A* sorry, but QTFPS is superior.

[https://github.com/spring/spring/tree/9bec15418279f1ecd87a55...](https://github.com/spring/spring/tree/9bec15418279f1ecd87a5586d5f4ae44f8fee0ad/rts/Sim/Path/QTPFS)

Always fascinating is the actual Edge-Case Handling (UnitsStuck). Setting Collission off and sending Units back shortest path can yield unexpected results there.

<comment><AUTHOR> For those of us who know little about all of this can you explain in simple terms the different approaches and why you think one might be better.

<comment><USER11> Well you use a Quadtree for path-finding. That gives you some advantages- regarding a) Resolution, (Long stretches of open terrain can be handled in one entry) b) Memory needed (Quadtrees are always just resolved as deep as needed and can be placed cache friendly in mem) c) Ask kloot. [https://www.youtube.com/user/Kleaut](https://www.youtube.com/user/Kleaut)

Regards</comment></comment></comment>


Can we clone extinct animals? - <AUTHOR> http://zombal.com/zomb/scientific-question/can-we-clone-extinct-animals

<comment><USER2> If they're extinct, then they'd probably be not as fit as the extant animals. The only place for them would be the zoo, and some people might consider that cruel.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This question was posted on Zombal, but I would like to see some of the HN community's answers.</comment>


Facebook documents show plans to sell access to user data discussed for years - <AUTHOR> https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/mark-zuckerberg-leveraged-facebook-user-data-fight-rivals-help-friends-n994706 <comment><USER2> >Facebook gave Amazon extended access to user data because it was... partnering with the social network on the launch of its Fire smartphone.

So is this yet another case of the media being incapable of distinguishing between transferring of data to third parties and displaying data on devices as an agent of the user, i.e. for the purpose of providing an integrated facebook experience? Until the media shows itself to be capable of making that distinction, I can't take these articles seriously.

<comment><USER3> You're quote doesn't really prove that it was just giving access to amazon devices. Could go either way, no?

<comment><USER4> Every other time the issue has come up, it's turned out that "access to user data" meant that the third party was allowed to ask the user for access to their data.

In principle this could be the first time Facebook actually just tossed database dumps at Amazon, and in principle Amazon might have abused the access to steal user data for themselves. But neither of those possibilities seem likely or are supported by the described evidence.

<comment><USER5> _Every other time the issue has come up, it 's turned out that "access to user data" meant that the third party was allowed to ask the user for access to their data._

Allowed to ask the user? Can you unwrap that for us?

<comment><USER4> To use most user-data-serving Facebook APIs, you need both authorization from the user whose data you're reading and approval from Facebook itself for your app. Facebook has been accused of bad behavior when approving and denying apps, but they haven't (as far has been reported) released any APIs to get user data without first asking the user.

<comment><USER6> This is true, but I doubt most users understood exactly what they handed over when they clicked "log in with Facebook".

<comment><USER7> at least there's always a tldr (you know what exactly you are handing over in a few bullet points), especially when you think of all the contracts/fine prints/ToS you accept in life..

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "The facts are clear: we've never sold people's data." \- Paul Grewal, VP and Assoc. Gen. Counsel, Facebook

Yeah, but that is not what is being alleged.

What is being alleged is that you sell _access_ to people's data.

This constant recitation of "We do not sell users' data" is like being in late stage litigation where each party's lawyers have chosen their respective arguments. They will cling to them no matter what happens, repeating them ad nauseum until the end.

Facebook's argument is "We do not sell people's data".

The issue however is not selling people's data. As such, this is not an argument. It is just misdirection.

The issue is selling _access_ to people's data.

Maybe we could call this "licensing"? Maybe it is more desirable for Facebook to license access to people's data than to sell it.

"People's data" might be their friends list, or whatever they have uploaded or contributed to Zuckerberg's website.

Facebook's lawyers will not address the issue of selling access to people's data. The reason is clear: they do not have a winning argument.

Then we have the matter of metadata. Facebook will let a user download their data, but not their metadata. All that data on her usage patterns on facebook.com and across the web that Facebook collects 24/7/365, e.g. via "Like" beacons and "Sign-In with Facebook".

If a user downloads her data from Facebook it does not tell her anything she didn't already know. It is simply the data she submitted to Zuckerberg.

But of course he has much more data about her that she is not allowed to see. The question is, "Why not?"

<comment><USER9> I agree Facebook is playing word games, but I think that misses the larger point. That is, Facebook is not selling access to people's data as understood by the lay person.

The average person interprets "Facebook sells access to your data" as meaning that someone can pay Facebook to access your individual data. e.g. What sites did 3xblah, specifically, visit last week?

This isn't how Facebook's ecosystem works. Advertisers can only target users in large groups. And, there's no way for advertisers to query Facebook's servers for the personal data of a specific user.

If you explain exactly what Facebook is doing to the average person they simply don't care (even if you explain all the potential risks to their personal security).

<comment><USER10> (You are addressing the advertiser ecosystem while the focus here is the app ecosystem.)

The "word games" may not be aimed at the "average person". They might be intended to mislead those who have a concern with what Facebook might be doing. For example, it might be part of their job. The FTC is an obvious example, but there are many individuals and groups who are interested in Facebook's activities relating to privacy.

Incidentally, how do you know these things about the "average person"? Is there a citation to some studies you have read?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > "As we've said many times, Six4Three — creators of the Pikinis app — cherry > picked these documents from years ago as part of a lawsuit to force Facebook > to share information on friends of the app's users," Paul Grewal, vice > president and deputy general counsel at Facebook, said in a statement > released by the company.

> "The set of documents, by design, tells only one side of the story and omits > important context. ..."

Seems like an easy problem to solve. Release the documents that provide the "important context". Unless they're even more damning or don't exist...

<comment><USER4> They've already made it clear that (they claim) the overall framing was user privacy. Maybe they're lying, but if they aren't I don't know what further context they could provide.

<comment><USER12> There has been so much lying on these topics (not only from Facebook) that what the companies claim means little unless they can support the claim with evidence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If someone from the media is reading along here: it would be nice to mention every now and again that the "grumpy old progress hating nerds" have a pretty good track record at condemning fb/google. This entire branch of news that I would maybe call "dystopia gawking" just provokes a huge "told you so" in parts of the tech community, and that would be a good thing to keep in mind during the next gold rush.

<comment><USER11> I wonder why people were so unwilling to accept Zuckerberg's own sentiment ("dumb fucks") about their data for years. It seems like that's _basically_ the attitude at Facebook from the top down. Everything else is PR spin.

<comment><USER14> "Dumb fucks" is more overplayed than "Google is going to shut down <service>". It's FUD. Zuckerberg said that when his tiny website was open to his classmates and a few others, and hasn't been representative of how the company functions.

I seriously cant believe that it's still a meme people use to justify their hate for Facebook.

<comment><USER15> It has been perfectly representative of how the company functions. Collecting and monetizing data from the "dumb fucks" with little to no regard for anything other than profits and getting people addicted to their apps

edit1: Guess I made some facebook engineers upset as I'm being downvoted. Looks like dymk is likely a facebook engineer, as his comment history has lots of comments seemingly supporting facebook, data collection, and ads, or at the very least arguing against those that oppose them. Reframe it however you want, Zuckerberg, Facebook, and its engineers are immoral and not concerned with the privacy or security of anyone's data. The people that knowingly continue to work their are complicit in the net negative impact facebook has on society

edit2: dymk is no longer a software engineer at facebook, but he was until early this year

<comment><USER16> > Collecting and monetizing data from the "dumb fucks" with little to no > regard.

I doubt humans are that simplistic, but at the end of the day, it seems they all have a price, and for that price they can invent lies so they can sleep at night thinking they're decent people.

And until this headline I thought they (and Zuck in particular) still had a code of honor when they say they won't abuse the trust their users had, but, well, apparenly that also has a price.

<comment><USER15> Why until this headline? Stories like this about Facebook and Zuck have been coming out for years

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There is a world of difference between literally selling user data to whoever for money, and providing API access so that users of other platforms can chose to share their own data with that platform.

The journalists lately are doing us all a huge disservice by conflating the two.

I haven't seen any evidence at all that FB was selling user data.

I've posted here a couple times on this issue, having been personally involved on the other side of the table in one of these 'deals' \- and it was only ever a matter of getting our app integrated into FB so that our users could access _their own data_. We didn't use any of the data, though some 3rd parties would then have access to that data and do whatever with it, but only with it _with the permission of the users_.

The article doesn't provide specifics, but from what I can gather, this really is about 'special API access', and shouldn't be frame as 'FB sharing user data'. This is simply unfair to FB however we might think of them because it misrepresents the issue.

In short: FB has publicly available APIs which 3rd parties can use to allow their users to do some integration. Some of those APIs provide quite a bit of access, and so there's reasonable discussion about 'who' they should give access to. It's also perfectly reasonable that FB wanted to sell access to such APIs, or to have some kind of reciprocity.

VISA, Mastercard and AMEX are out there selling your data (on the aggregate, down to the zip code) to whoever wants to buy it, which is far worse and in many cases may theoretically compromise your identity.

FB has a lot to answer for, surely, but the information needs to be more clearly communicated. Sometimes, I'm not even sure if the journalists understand what is going on.

<comment><USER18> Law of headlines: if it bleeds it leads...

To get crisp, selling data is selling the keys to the kingdom, it would remove FB's need to exist. There are strong economic motivations to not go out of business.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Some of these documents have been made public before late last year. All of them seem to still be related to the Six4Three lawsuit:

> _The documents stem from a California court case between the social network > and the little-known startup Six4Three, which sued Facebook in 2015 after > the company announced plans to cut off access to some types of user data. > Six4Three's app, Pikinis, which soft-launched in 2013, relied on that data > to allow users to easily find photos of their friends in bathing suits._

</comment><comment><USER20> I do appreciate how their "Director of Platform Partnerships" was also apparently in charge of killing platforms FB thought had become too popular. Great folks to do business with, I'm sure.

</comment><comment><USER21> At this point, literally nothing about this is surprising

</comment><comment><USER22> How many of the commenters here still use WhatsApp? Did you try switching you & friends to Signal?

<comment> y-c-o-m-b I use it. Yes I've tried. They don't want to switch :/

<comment><USER23> Same with me, apparently being able to change the background of chats is an "essential feature".

<comment><USER24> Certain People in One's Life may be incapable of correctly addressing their messages without this feature, so yeah, it's pretty important.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The current title of the article is: Mark Zuckerberg leveraged Facebook user data to fight rivals and help friends, leaked documents show

</comment><comment><USER26> The whole point of Facebook's social graph API is to get access to user data. Usually without permission or consent.

</comment><comment><USER27> It doesn't seem there really are any rules or limits at Facebook.

</comment><comment><USER28> Glad to see this out in the open.

<comment><USER29> Definitely! I've never seen a post on HN expose FB until now. This one post, just today. Right now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> News: Zuckerberg is a thieving lying snake. Facebook is cancer. As long as these snakes don't go to prison, this will not stop/end.

<comment><USER31> Can we please stop with the hyperbole ?

Facebook absolutely deserves to be regulated but right now nothing they or Zuckerberg has done is remotely illegal.

<comment><USER32> Don't confuse legality with morality.

<comment><USER31> And people should only go to prison when they commit a crime.

The rule of law does not centre around who is nice or not.

<comment><USER32> That's exactly what OP is saying: since they're not going to prison because the law lets them continue, it won't stop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Absolute shocker.

</comment><comment><USER34> Zuck literally is becoming a charicature. What a joke.

Except that world democracy is at stake.

Can we regulate these goons yet or what?

<comment><USER18> The Facebook killing democracy meme is flattering for technologists but imo too simplistic. In America there are a number of "democracy killers" or "this is why we have trump" in the mainstream narrative: Russia, Racism, FBI, Facebook, electoral college, etc.

Let's not forget people tilt towards economic or cultural nationalism for a reason, and it's in our power to address those reasons directly, not chase band aid solutions.

<comment><USER16> A quip I read says: "Of course it's totally Putin's fault that Trump won, because actually everyone in the USA loves neoliberalism deep at heart!".

But Facebook became an effective tool for a "voter hacking", if you believe the coverage about Cambridge Analytica: data-mine the Facebook profiles to determine the targets (apparently as little as several thousand people in the swing states), and then use FB's targeted advertising to influence these people with videos you know will get them emotionally. Boom. Hacking elections/voting machines is illegal, but no one ever said anything about hacking the voters, right?

<comment><USER18> Maybe, but unlike hacking voting machines (which remove voters) this scheme relies on rallying real people to go and vote. It would have been achievable with traditional campaigning methods, just more expensively.

But why aren't we addressing the underlying issue of why these several thousand people in swing states thought to vote in this way? How come the mainstream response is to say "gee I wish those people hadn't voted"?

I think addressing the underlying concerns would be more effective. I get that politics can be zero-sum at times but campaigning in swing states and targeting issues that those voters find important should be part of every campaign.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Please read this. This isn't just another routine news that Zuck lied and Facebook is evil. They had access to more than 4.000 previously unreleased documents.

Democracy is at stake. Facebook and its subsidiaries are destroying our societies. The problem is global. Not because it is happening in a far away country you shouldn't care. You can already see the increase in Amazon deforestation due to Bolsonaro election in Brazil.

<comment><USER31> You can't blame Facebook for the rise of right wing leaders.

It's been happening in US, Italy, Israel, Poland, Hungary, Phillipines and now Brazil and the trend will continue whilst those leaders offer strength, populism and can point to immigrants as the cause of society's problems.

<comment><USER36> Yes, and a corrupt left-wing leader could use the exact same techniques. Like the guns they put on the back of Toyota trucks in third world countries, this tracking stuff has no particular allegiance.

<comment><USER37> Promoting negative emotions is a lot easier than promoting positive emotions. To a very large degree the platform of the right is currently heavily weighted toward provoking fear and anger, negative emotions easy to stoke in people.

This might change and we may have an ascendant party on the left with a primarily negative message eventually. And I'm not saying the current left never does this. But at the moment the right's playbook fits existing social media better.

<comment><USER36> I hope to avoid a political debate, but the left has plenty of negative messages too. The rich are too rich and don't have to pay taxes, the poor are too poor, racism never completely went away, the corporate world is unfair to women, and so on. I doubt there has ever been a political movement without any negative messages. I should add in support of your point about social media having a propensity to negativity, these negative left-leaning messages tend to spread faster than the positive ones, just like on the right wing.

<comment><USER38> > but the left has plenty of negative messages too. The rich are too rich and > don't have to pay taxes, the poor are too poor, racism never completely went > away, the corporate world is unfair to women, and so on.

Those are hardly negative, and to equate their tone with far right rhetoric is textbook false equivalency. They are if anything just positions that one may or may not agree with about the just distribution of wealth and opportunity.

None of them are even in same ballpark or kind as the current toxic rhetoric on the far right, such as "[Mexicans] are criminals", "Muslims are trying to impose Sharia law in the US", "blood and soil", "we can't rebuild our civilization with someone else's babies" (that one is paraphrasing from a sitting member of Congress).

That is the rhetoric of racial and ethnic nationalism, which is almost totally a far right phenomenon on social media. There is no equivalent on the far left today, and that's not to say that it can't develop. But to do so with literally require a complete change of the people who make up the left.

<comment><USER36> You don't have to dig very far to find some stupid kids on Reddit going off on that "eat the rich" stuff - but the thing is, your "stupid kids" are their "horrible violent mob," and their "stupid kids" are your "horrible violent mob." In reality they're both a little bit violent and definitely both stupid. ;)

Social media and regular media both contribute to this perception because everyone wants to forget about their own bad associations and focus on the bad associations of others. So, if you want to find out about nationalists you read left-leaning publications and if you want to find out about radical-to- the-point-of-silliness leftists you have to read right-leaning publications.

<comment><USER38> > You don't have to dig very far to find some stupid kids on Reddit > Social > media and regular media both contribute to this perception

3 of the 4 examples of right wing rhetoric I quoted were uttered publicly by right wing elected officials (including the highest current elected in the land), not by people entertaining themselves on Reddit. The fourth was shouted publicly by crowds in Charlottesville.

The difference between right and left rhetoric is one of kind, not degree. Ethnic nationalism is not a motivating factor on the left today.

Class tensions and frustration over the distribution of opportunity and wealth - yes, those are prominent left-wing issues and that rhetoric is often expressed via insensitive metaphors targeted at the very wealthy, but again, it's not even comparable to the rhetoric of ethnic nationalism.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> They should arrest Zuckerberger, I'd like to see RICO applied within the ranks of a single corporation, epic trial.

<comment><USER40> I'll let Popehat handle this one: [https://www.popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not- rico-...](https://www.popehat.com/2016/06/14/lawsplainer-its-not-rico-dammit/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Folks should check out this article that explains how Facebook intentionally did not pass along privacy metadata to developers. Shows how a lot of the so called "breaches" happened. Hint: they weren't breaches, it was privacy violation by design. [https://medium.com/@six4three/deceit-by-design-zucks- dirty-s...](https://medium.com/@six4three/deceit-by-design-zucks-dirty-secret- he-doesn-t-want-you-to-know-67dcc94e2b5d)</comment>