Why does HTML think "chucknorris" is a color? (2011) - <AUTHOR> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8318911/why-does-html-think-chucknorris-is-a-color <comment><USER3> This definitely corrects a misconception I've had for years.

When I first started writing HTML, I would set colours using the english colour names, for example color="red" or color="white" and this worked well for my needs.

However, I would always get an odd result when I tried to set the colour grey. Turns out, I didn't spell very well (I was pretty young at the time, though still spell atrociously).

And the colour would come out green. What?

I quickly realised my spelling error but wondered why things ended up green. I decided what was happening was that the interpreter read the colour name up until the first invalid character (in this case resulting in "gr"), then chose the closest match. Green would be before grey in alphabetical order and... voila!

I see now the solution was simply that gray was interpreted as 00 a0 00. Another life mystery solved!

<comment><USER4> Don't beat yourself up about it: 'gray' is a perfectly legitimate US-English variant of the British-English 'grey'. In fact, 'Gray' is actually correct according to the spec (I had to look it up, and remember making this very mistake in the old days, which makes sense given that I'm British) I have a vague recollection that the 'misspelling' was actually handled differently between browsers.

<comment><USER5> So, you are saying this is a gray area?

 _(somebody had to say it)_

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > HTML is built around intentionally ignoring malformed input

To elaborate: In the very early days, HTML was often written by hand. Part of the early vision of the web was that anybody could write HTML and publish content.

It was thought that allowing malformed HTML to result in a completely blank page or an error message would be too unfriendly for less technical users.

In those early pre-CSS pre-JavaScript days, HTML was more like bbcode, Markdown, or RST today. It's interesting that AFAIK those languages don't have a notion of malformed input -- there is no movement to tighten the bolts on Markdown in the way that XHTML attempted to tighten the bolts on HTML.

<comment><USER7> Surely "ye olden HTML days" aren't _that_ far back that we should be talking about them in past tense?

I just had a conversation with an iPhone repair guy. He asked me to help him fix a centering problem in his website. So he pulled up the HTML, and it was just _awful_. Table-based layout, broken tags... But it worked, and I taught him about the  tag. He gave me a discount on my repair.

Malformed HTML input is still very much alive and well, and necessary for non- technical people.

<comment><USER8> Let he who has not used table-based layout cast the first stone ...

<comment><USER9> Table based layouts (still being used on practically every forum I frequent) weren't so bad until mobile came into the picture. With fixed sizes, they just weren't flexible. Plus the added bandwidth of sending hundreds of s were non-trivial for those of us who were on a shoestring budget and had sudden influx of visitors back in the day.

Of course, now we've replaced the hundreds of  with hundreds of JS files instead. Problem solved!

<comment><USER10> If I remember correctly, in IE6, the table didn't load until all of the elements loaded. That's how they tought us tables were baaad.

<comment><USER9> Indeed, you _do_ remember correctly. This was especially fun on dialup.

But it was OK because the forum was running phpBB, which would invariably be hacked/spammed, so you'd be getting a free dialer which was guaranteed increase download speeds ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> As Seen on HN™ [https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=chuckn...](https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=chucknorris)

</comment><comment><USER12> I thought it was because Chuck Norris doesn't adhere to web standards - <USER2> standards adhere to _him_!

<comment><USER13> Thank you! This was the only reason I clicked into the comments, and you delivered well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Please remember Chuck Norris is a fundamentalist christian who doesn't like gays and is against evolution in schools.

If that's your belief system no problem.

If not perhaps rethink just how cool he and this whole meme is.

<comment><USER15> I have always thought the meme was really saying the total opposite, by saying how cool he is was really making fun of him for the reasons you state.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Waning: Meta

What's the process by which a stack overflow question hits HN?

How does the OP

1\. Wander into this question

2\. Decide it's worth sharing

3\. Decide to post on HN specifically?

<comment><USER17> It was just posted on reddit for the 100th time (r/webdev)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Similar to the Nancy bug: [http://calculist.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/nancy- typing.html](http://calculist.blogspot.co.uk/2006/02/nancy-typing.html)

</comment><comment><USER19> Noticed I added references to Netscape classic source code.

</comment><comment><USER20> Of course Chuck Norris is a color. He just has more bits than other colors.

</comment><comment><USER21> Who would argue otherwise?</comment>


Ask HN: Were you a procrastinator and could overcome it? How did you do? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I was a (I'd call it _hard-core_ ) procrastinator. I still am a procrastinator, but I've come (relatively) quite a long way.

I have never been a lazy person in terms of physical activity. I like all kinds of sportive activities - hiking, biking, football (soccer), swimming, working out, etc. But over years I had become _very_ lazy for mental gym, _a master of procrastination_ , developing a massive fear of intellectual activity. A few years passed, and I became so tired of myself not doing a useful cognitive work. I hated it - if you ever been a mentally-active person even in a childhood and in later years you realize you've become slacker, then you will hate yourself for not doing useful things. It's a good thing if it bothers you - it _should_ bother you.

What started my recovery from procrastination was reading. It was like _going back to roots_ \- I was an avid reader as a child, so, it really helped me to kick-start. At this point, I guess everyone has some kind of useful hobby, or habit, as a mental activity and if it has gone rusty, they should clean that up and start rotating the gears. BTW, I should also mention the "Learning How To Learn" course (MOOC on Coursera by Barbara Oakley). It helped me a lot too, as I like learning by listening and it motivated me to set a daily goals & complete them. Essentially, it taught me to follow a lesson/lecture again. Maybe this course (it's like "brain 101" or "how a brain works and how to use it efficiently") will not do the same for everyone, but is't not about this exact course - it's about _to start learning again_ , you choose your own one.

All in all, IMHO, procrastination is a massive _fear_ of mental activity (rather than lazyness) and it's so harmful as almost all other fears & one should face it to get rid of it - again, like other fears, it frightens you as long as you avoid facing it. After the face-off, it's just downhill and you feel relieved. (And procrastination can never be overcomed enough and one should never let languor overtake them, IMO.)

<comment><USER3> I agree mostly and I am in a similar position. What I don't entirely agree with is that "procrastination is a massive fear of mental activity". For instance, even though I'm not a big gamer, when I procrastinate I can spend hours playing one of my favorite strategy games and strategy games require quite a bit of mental activity. I think procrastination is a fear of boring mental activity, something that doesn't provide immediate reward.

<comment><USER4> I suspect the problem is less boredom and more ambiguity. Goal pursuit is easy to figure out with a health bar, mana bar, and purse with two few gold pieces.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was a terrible student in K-12 and then I college before I dropped out. Starting probably in middle school, I didn't do homework at home. I would do it in a panic the class before. Then in high school, I'd barely do it at all. I did well on tests so I suppose that's how I got by at all.

In college, I got a part time job which I started taking more shifts at and stopped going to classes altogether because I was anxious about doing classwork.

After dropping out, I went full time self studying 3D art and animation through DigitalTutors (now Pluralsight). I found myself more interested in programming so traded that for Pluralsight and Safari Books Online.

Both 3D art and programming were immensely more interesting to me than Physics (which I was studying before) which I think influenced my work ethic.

I got a programming job which forced me to learn as an additional full time job.

I'm a relatively successful professional now, but I still suffer from devastating procrastination. I put off launching an engineering blog for my company for almost a year because there was a step I avoided which eventually I did and it took 15 mins.

The things which _have_ been effective for me are the pomodoro technique. I use kanbanflow for this which also has a kanban board. I don't use this for everything, but I rely on it when I'm unmotivated or the task is really important.

I also became more effective when I switched managers and made it a point to ask them to bug me about things. I tend to take on a lot of side projects and get them 80% done. Having a accountability (peer and/or manager) whom you actually care about impressing (or disappointing) is important, even if they're not in tech or at your company.

<comment><USER6> Just want you to know that your post inspired me to setup kanbanflow and to try the pomodoro technique. Thanks! Even if it doesn't work for me, at least it got me trying something.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I wish I had learned this trick 50 years ago.

Sit on the couch and get feeling "good" and guilty about not doing a given task.

Then, promise yourself that if you get up and just get it started (assemble the materials, or scrape the dishes, or define the variables...) you will have pushed the project forward and earned the right to sit back down.

That's surprisingly easy to do. Once your are started though, there will be no way you will want to sit back down. You have got this thing on the run. You are wining!

I KNOW it sounds silly. It works for me, and it works for others I've talked to. It's your life. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER8> Just do it. _shrugs_

The biggest thing would be to shift from future mentality to now mentality. Be interested in the process, not the results. When you visualize or anticipate the results, it robs required energy from the present to perform the action that leads to those results...

Basically you've got to rewire yourself to derive satisfaction from _doing_ , not resting in anticipation of a future outlook. A future which never actually matches the visualization exactly, because if it did, you'd be a gotdamn oracle.

<comment><USER9> _> Just do it._

 _Were_ you ever a procrastinator? Because that is something I mostly hear from folks who weren't. Sometimes people who think they are procrastinators are actually just being lazy, which is completely different.

I don't mean that in a pejorative sense. Here is the difference, in a sitation here a task becomes larger the longer you wait: A lazy person will usually think "If I do it now it will be less work than if I wait until later", whereas a procrastinator will almost always think "if I do it later, it will only be a little bit of extra work".

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Sometimes, there are actually reasons for procrastination. I've mentioned my disability a few times here, and now I'm going to again: as a result of it, I tend to avoid situations that make me uncomfortable, ones that I've not been in before, and just about anything that involves paperwork or having to read something and really comprehend it.

As an example of the situations I avoid, right now I'm meant to get in touch with my doctor and ask for a referral to an organization who can help me with my disability. I've been at this point for the last 25 days - because I don't know if I talk to the office administrator, the nurse, or the doctor.

That's it. That's the only reason, and like omarchowdhury says, it's a case of "just do it." But - and this is the killer - I have a really powerful compulsion to avoid it. It's similar to the compulsion not to climb a scaffold for those of us scared of heights, a strong driving compulsion that is difficult to overcome.

Similarly, I've got a stack of books the length of my arm, all waiting to be read, but I haven't touched them in probably five years. I used to read a book every few days, sometimes two a day if they were short enough, but I haven't (re)developed the rule set that allows me to get back into that.

A friend and I are developing a project (and game), and I haven't done anything on that in two or three weeks. Longer, if I'm honest with myself. Again, that same compulsion drives me to avoid working on it.

I have an email waiting to be sent. It's almost ready, I just need to read it to be sure it's correct, re-write a small bit of it, and then I can send it. Three weeks.

Instead, I just sit here, reading short but pointless crap on the internet, watching videos on YouTube, going off to work for a couple of hours a day, which brings me to my next point - that if I'm doing something for someone else, I can usually fly right through it with ease.

I have no explanation for this, just that it can be a symptom of my disability, and I have no understanding on how to approach it or beat it, so I will be watching this thread with some interest.

edit:

Think I should point out that when I reply on here, quite often I'll forget to check and see if anybody's replied to me. When I do remember, it's often while I'm out and I'll plan to do it later, but then I don't remember. Not strictly a procrastination problem, but it falls roughly in line with it.

</comment><comment><USER11> Put yourself in a position where you would have to publicly admit it on a constant basis and it would make you uncomfortable. I started spending more time with my significant other and hating to admit that I spent all day doing nothing, I just started doing stuff to avoid the shame. As a side note, I also became good at giving (increased) value to what I do, or at least presenting it as something important. Also, if I need to do something, I will sometimes go to a cafe or a coworking, because when I come there I think to myself "Well I didn't get here to do nothing, so I will be working". If you have people who support you a lot to the point where you could do something just for them - just keep a reminder of it somewhere on your eyes level.

</comment><comment><USER12> For me, the biggest problem is the start of the (boring) activity. Once I'm already in it, I can work for hours -- just the first step.

So my solution is simple. I say to myself: "I'm not gonna work on that boring thing, I'll just have a look at it." This relieves the pressure and allows me to get started. Next thing is: "Ok, so I'll just do this one little thing." Three hours later: "Shit, it's done.".

Also it helped me to write down activities I want to stop, e.g. "No HN before 5pm; No news before 5pm".

And the last thing is to remove all possible distractions. Put your phone out of your visual field, block sites, etc.

</comment><comment><USER13> I became a really bad procrastinator after being a university professor (I am slowly getting over his). What caused this was being given tasks that changed 3 or 4 times before the deadline and/or were not missed if they weren't done.

Administration would give me tasks to do, then change them multiple times, and finally do nothing if I didn't do them 95% of the time. I got to the point where I could not complete any paperwork unless someone from admin was standing beside me saying this had to be completed that minute or else the university was shutting down.

</comment><comment><USER14> I don't know if I'm a "real" procrastinator but I am definitely a "P" on the MBTI scale. This means I usually do things at the last minute. I can rarely manage to get interested in a task (especially a boring one) until just before the deadline. Also, I can't seem to do any productive work if I don't have a huge workload. (As an example, after putting off stuff all week long I'm now hauling ass to get everything done by the WE - despite posting on HN at the same time - and I'm fairly confident I'll get most of it done)

The flip side for me is that I'm very driven by deadlines: I hate to be late (or more specifically, _too_ late). So, to overcome my ingrained habits, I split up tasks and set intermediate deadlines for each subtask, not too far in the future. If I have a real, hard deadline I'll impose myself an arbitrary deadline the day before; this way I may slip my own deadline by a few hours, but I'll definitely make the real deadline. I may also sit on tasks for a few days (or weeks), until the accumulated feeling of urgency from all those chores to be done is enough to get me moving.

It's more coping than overcoming, but I find it useful in practice, at least for my natural inclination. Taking an MBTI course really helped as well, it helped me understand why I behaved in certain ways and identify my coping mechanisms for what they are - I've behaved this way for a long time, but I always felt kind of guilty for having to use tactics to get anything done.

</comment><comment><USER15> Figure out the reason you are procrastinating.

For me it was ADHD; the stress of a deadline is stimulating which increases my focus. That's a shitty way to live though so getting it treated helped a lot.

I see another comment where it was anxiety.

If you only procrastinate certain things, you just might find those activities aversive. You can adress that, to a certain degree, by scheduling. Do X amount of the work you hate followed immediately by Y amount of work you like; it's a simple way of rewarding yourself for doing what you don't like. If all of your work is work you hate, prepare yourself for a different job if at all possible.

Some people procrastinate just because they are poorly organized; any system (GtD seems to be popular) can fix a lot of this.

Other times procrastination can just be a form of self-sabotage (there are many reasons for doing this; you think you don't deserve success; you are avoiding the greater responsibility that will come with success &c.). "I left it to the last-minute" is a simple excuse for doing a mediocre job and lets you avoid self-reflection for why you are sabotaging yourself.

There's probably lots of other reasons for procrastination, but the one pattern for myself and friends who had procrastination persist into adulthood was that it was a symptom, and while treating the symptom can help in the short term, treating the problem is a better long-term fix.

</comment><comment><USER16> I keep it in check now, but it has taken years. What was instrumental: \- discovering something I really love to do, programming \- realizing what my procrastination always happens when I don't understand what is expected of me

Taking these into account, I set up some nets: \- started a therapy to work on the why \- before starting a task, I try to identify all unknowns before running into them. If it comes from me and is not discovered while trying to accomplish the task, it's easier to overcome, and often not an issue at all \- I work in programming, so I have a very high incentive to do all chores quickly so that I can go back doing something I love (not always effective!) \- my coworkers/family know me and often check with me my progress on whatever I need to do for them \- I know how I procrastinate and try to justify it to myself, so when I catch myself doing it I start identifying explicitly what I am avoiding and what would unlock me, even if I can't stop procrastinating on the spot. When I regain control of myself later, I know what to do and its easier. \- I ask help when I am stuck for more than one week, and people has always helped me, for instance by doing the one bit I can't. Just speaking is rarely enough at that point \- I try to sleep at least 6 hours a night, I love so much having energy and a working brain \- I emphasis the positive consequences of my actions \- I choose to procrastinate when I am too tired, I won't be able to do something of quality anyways, so I can enjoy these moments almost guilt free

So in short, reflect on what is triggering your procrastination, and create various safety nets to catch yourself. If you have a problem solving mindset, it's quite fun to "solve" yourself. Try also to discover some solid ground within yourself, so you can use it. For instance, I can't stand boredom and if I procrastinate for too long, I get so much bored I am willing to do anything to stop feeling it, even doing what I was supposed to do.

</comment><comment><USER17> I am not sure I can say I have overcome it but I can say that my productivity has improved ever since I started doing little apps to help me be more productive, like custom todolists, custom kanban boards, etc. I've just finished an app to help me form habits ( [https://everydaycheck.com](https://everydaycheck.com) )

I've realized that if I do something every day at some point I don't see it as a task anymore but as something I do without thinking, like brushing my teeth, so I have more time of the day allocated to useful/productive stuff and procrastinate much less.

</comment><comment><USER18> Procrastination doesn`t start at your work. I`m sure there are other areas in your life that could be better. Start establishing healthy habits. It will affect every part of your life and thereby reduce procrastination.

One important point is your level of energy and a fresh mind.

* Stand up earlier

* Decrease your coffee consumption

* Get used to cold showers

* Eat healthy

* Do sports

* Stop using social media

* Don't watch TV or series (make it a rule to only watch with others)

* Don't listen to music all the time. Enjoy music. If you definitely need it, listen to some without vocals. Vocals are more distracting and so you are less focused and so you get less stuff done and so you are less motivated and BOOM, back on HN.

</comment><comment><USER19> My procrastination is basically an anxiety problem. How do I deal with it now and stay somewhat sane?

Most importantly I do a lot of working on my self-awareness, and recognizing when I'm not in control.

Next would be medication so I can actually do something when I hit that realization. I'm fine without it until the stress hits and then it's too late. I've considered that maybe it's a placebo effect thing, but at this point I don't really care. I don't have horrible side effects or feel weird or anything I can't live with.

I have to be extremely honest about myself all the time. If I'm behind, I say so. If I'm stressed I say so. It rarely bites me and it keeps me from having to scramble to cover a lie or exaggeration. Anxiety feeds on anxiety.

Then there's all that agile bullcrap. I try to think in 1 or 2 week sprints depending on the project. Occasionally I look up to see what my bigger goals are and make sure my small ones make progress towards them.

I have to work in a supportive team, so we keep each other on track and in perspective. We have to be able to cross-delegate so we don't get bogged down. It's way more fun to share in success and failure with friends.

I get killed by long-term deadlines. Give me 6 months and I'll turn a shell script into a new language project. So I ignore the "cure world hunger" stuff and just make sure I'm making progress all the time. That way I enjoy my success rather than constantly feeling like I'll never make utopia. I focus on MVP, then MVP + 1, and so on. I never fall in love with my own work or some piece of tech, so I'm happy to scrap it when it stops being useful.

Now I get a lot done. I have a reputation for getting a lot done in short periods of time. But I still always have to combat the feeling that I'm not moving fast enough and I'm letting people down. Talking with people who care about you (because they're friends, your spouse, or you're paying them to help) is the only way to really deal with that.

I guess the common themes here are to be self-aware, communicate, and keep moving forward in as small iterations as is reasonable.

</comment><comment><USER20> I've had a lot of success recently forcing myself to do something "boring" in the morning, while I still have willpower remaining, avoiding high-stimulation activities (internet/apps/junk news etc.) until later.

After getting better at beating procrastination, the main problem has been is the feeling that my brain is totally dead and "heavy" after working on mentally-taxing things for hours - napping seems to help with this, but I can't always just nap whenever I want.

Also Chrome plugins to block Reddit and HN (sorry, HN).

</comment><comment><USER21> I have health issues. Getting them under control is the crux of getting my time management issues under control.I suspect this is far more common than is recognized.

I was called "lazy" my whole life. Then I got the right diagnosis in my mid thirties and began getting my act together. I wasn't lazy. I just didn't have the energy to do the things I needed to do.

I still am not as productive as I would like to be, but it is vastly better than it used to be.

</comment><comment><USER22> Procrastination is basically you being out of alignment with what you really want to be doing. On a larger scale that just that task that you are wanting to do at the moment.

I've found that when I align myself mentally, spiritually and physically with what I feel I truly should be doing, procrastination reduces dramatically.

That's a hard thing to do, though. Takes a lot of thinking and meditation. But it's achievable.

</comment><comment><USER23> When I was working on something I thought I had to work on, I used an app called Freedom to block the web. When I dropped the thing I thought I had to work on, and started working on something I really wanted to work on, then I didn't need external help.

</comment><comment><USER24> I buy candy. Then I don't eat the candy until I have completed all important tasks I have to do.

</comment><comment><USER25> for me I use a quote by Derek Sivers

"You have to meet inspiration half way"

What that means is just sit down and start doing something. After about 30 minutes you get in the flow and it carries you the rest of the way.

</comment><comment><USER26> Procrastination is a holistic issue with no single fix.

I am not a psychologist, so take the next 5 points with a HUGE grain of salt.

1\. Ask yourself if you are suppressing an impulse to perform tasks, or waiting the impulse out, or simply not experiencing the impulse at all. Ask yourself what dots need to be connected to actually lead you to performing the task. Some people procrastinate tasks that require nearly zero effort... often at great personal cost. If you notice yourself doing this, take some time to reflect(non-judgmentally) on your behavior-- its profoundness, irrationality, and what could be gained if it were changed. Think about the day-to-day reasons that a 5-minute task gets drawn out over 2 months. Rephrase your question to "am I accidentally thinking procrastination is helpful?" Procrastination may be a mood regulation technique; rather than thinking of it as "avoiding a boring task", ask if it is "the pleasurable experience of defying or hiding from an 'undesirable' task". When viewed through that lens, procrastination is a maladaptive coping mechanism vaguely like binge-eating or self-harm. The next questions become "why would I think procrastination is helpful?" and "why would I feel the need to cope?" Hypothesize your reasons-- the self-fulfilling prophesy of underachievement. The avoidance of engagement with real life. The assertion of control. What else? Be with these ideas for a while, and ask what is best for you.

2\. (rephrasing oldmancoyote's comment) 1/10 rule: for 1 minute of work, you earn 10 minutes of "break." Seriously, get 10 minutes of break guilt-free for 1 minute of work. It's a great deal.

3\. Present and patient. Practice mindfulness meditation to help with your emotional state and train your ability to be "present" in your current task. (see omarchowdhury's comment) Being able to be present without thinking about the future is difficult, but it is paradoxically important for your future. Also realize that by being fully patient and present in this menial task, you can sometimes be in a self-healing, meditative state.

4\. [http://www.procrastination.ca](http://www.procrastination.ca) / [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFQA998WiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhFQA998WiA)

5\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load) (feel free to assert that cognitive load does not affect work avoidance) You may be experiencing a self-regulation failure due to high cognitive load. "Abnormal" brain chemistry like ADHD, bipolar, depression, etc., ... dysphoria sometimes due to a sedentary or unhealthy lifestyle, and social or personal problems will eventually sap your emotional energy and cause you to revert to coping mechanisms(see point 1). Invest in that emotional energy. Also blood sugar/insulin

A Exercise B 1/10 idea C Therapy D Healthy Lifestyle E Meditation F Brain Chemistry</comment>


If macOS High Sierra shows your password instead of the password hint - <AUTHOR> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208168 <comment><USER2> How did Disk Utility.app go from being one of the great built-in OS X utilities to the embarrassing amateurish shit show that it is today?

Perhaps the same people responsible for the file system engineering are also responsible for developing this user-facing application. They might excel at low level system engineering, but they are utterly unqualified to develop a high level GUI application.

Spend 5 minutes with the app and you'll find a half dozen bugs and amateurish mistakes. It's baffling, and it's been a problem for two years now.

<comment><USER3> I really don't get why they have allowed this crippled GUI for so long. I understand that they want to make it simple for low level users, but that seems like a bad excuse in this case as low level users aren't even going to use Disk Utility, just like they aren't going to use Automater. It shows a blindness to their market, i think. Anybody who is on my "free IT" list for the last few years has been receiving a Mac when it's time to upgrade. The tech support is night and day, and problems are easy to fix thanks to built in, easy to use screen sharing, a robust OS, and well rounded modern hardware. At the same time I'm not a unix guru, I don't know Bash that well and when I'm forced to use it I spend a lot of time reading. I hate that they keep hiding more and more commands behind Bash precisely because it makes it significantly more difficult to do what I'll call "prosumer IT". One of the things that really sold me on Macs was when Disk Utility managed to repair a USB that was completely bricked on my windows machine. As of MacOS Sierra, I now have use bash to fix corrupted drives as they aren't displayed in the GUI. Such a pain and such a step backwards.

<comment><USER4> There are times that installing macOS requires a trip through Disk Utility, is why. Disk Utility.app is _basically_ made for the single use case of "modify the system to make macOS installable."

The thing to understand, is that everyone inside Apple uses diskutil(8), not Disk Utility.app. diskutil(8) is the "canonical" way to do almost everything related to Disk management on macOS, the same way diskmgmt.msc is on Windows. Everything else is a secondary "convenience" view to just allow certain workflows (like installing macOS without overwriting things, or unlocking a FileVault volume with a master password to install macOS on it) to be accomplished more easily—like the Properties view of a disk drive in Windows.

If there are other "convenience views" of disk management that you think would be helpful, why not make them into an app and sell it? One my favourite macOS programs, DaisyDisk, is basically just such a convenience view. People are willing to buy these—especially as a gift for their "prosumer" friends. Apple can't predict every use-case that a prosumer might want an accelerator for, but the free market probably can.

<comment><USER5> diskutil(8) is not that great either. Like reading passwords from the terminal without bothering to turn off echo.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The lack of attention to detail by Apple recently e.g. code reviews, in house testing is clearly too low. I have seen too many software failures recently from this company. Like photos freezing on my new iMac (before High Sierra), numerous issues with iOS (I remember the podcasts app wasting all my cellular allowance because it ignored WiFi only) and other nuances, inconsistencies and defects.

Only in iOS 11 have they added tags to the files app - the previous iCloud Drive app had a button for tags but it was seemingly not implemented.

Finding issues in apple products is really like going hunting in a zoo at the moment.

<comment><USER7> I have a Dell Precision laptop running Linux at home and a MacBook Pro from work.

On a weekly basis, the Mac won't wake from sleep and requires a hard reboot. The Time Machine backups get corrupted at least every other month and require a full backup from scratch. Sometimes the audio just quits working when I wake from sleep. The App Store is some horribly wrapped, unresponsive web app. Disk Utility is useless. Etc, etc. It's a horrible mess of an experience.

The Dell running Linux is _far_ more stable. I can get literal months of uptime out of the Dell using it on a daily basis w/ 100% hardware functionality. No stereotypical Linux desktop pains. And this is coming from someone who was an Apple fanboy for 10+ years. Apple's QA just went to shit and I was sick of dealing with their bugs.

Edit: For those telling me it's a hardware problem: it's possible, but I've had similar experiences w/ the wake-from-sleep issues on two different copies of the 2016 15" MBP, and the Time Machine corruption on a MBP and an Air. So if it is a hardware problem, then their hardware QC is as bad as their software.

<comment><USER8> Opposite experience here.

2015 Dell Precision M6800 issues (all non-linux-related have been replicated by >=1 coworker):

        Spurious thermal throttle activation occasionally reduces performance to molassas
        Bluescreen in network drivers ~ once a week
        Unless you disable integrated/discrete graphics switching, it fails to recognize external displays
        HDD makes strange grinding noise every month or so, but hasn't failed yet.
        Shit control loop on fans sometimes causes them to repeatedly pulse on and off
        Shit battery / power management (about ~1.5hr tops after incentivized settings optimization)
        Shit trackpad
        Takes ~1 minute to recognize new USB HID devices (might be AV's fault)
        (Linux-only): latest stable ubuntu toggles backlight on/off at 30hz
        (Linux-only): ancient supported ubuntu doesn't support modern chrome or firefox (!)
        (Linux-only): able to wake from sleep exactly once
        (Linux-only): massive pain in the ass to install drivers on supported ubuntu (directions for the packager app were out of date and incorrect to a degree that was difficult to work around)

2013 MBP:

        Dead key, replaced keyboard (cost: $10 + two hours)
        Spill caused unreliable trackpad, replaced. (cost: $30 + two hours)

<comment><USER9> How did you get the MBP trackpad replaced for $30 and in 2h? I have the one in my MacBook Air in a similar state and Apple quotes 150+ EUR and leaving it for one week at their tech support...

<comment><USER8> I bought a replacement on ebay and swapped it out. Most of the two hours was spent un-sticking the battery from the case.

Macs have high enough volume per model that parts and tutorial videos are plentiful and cheap :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Description:

'If a hint was set in Disk Utility when creating an APFS encrypted volume, the password was stored as the hint. This was addressed by clearing hint storage if the hint was the password, and by improving the logic for storing hints.'

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208165](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT208165)

<comment><USER11> So basically if you set a hint your entire disk encryption became useless because the hint storage gave your password away?

Yikes, hope no one was relying on that.

<comment><USER12> Keep in mind that this only happens if you turned it on using Disk Utility. If you did the normal upgrade (the vast majority of users) you didn't go through disk utility, and everything's fine (presumably). Still a terrible error, but affects far fewer people than your comment implied.

<comment><USER13> What if you used command line diskutil?

<comment><USER14> Apparently the bug only affected the GUI app.

> When creating an encrypted APFS volume in Terminal with the diskutil command > line utility, the actual hint is shown, rather than the password.

[https://www.macrumors.com/2017/10/05/macos-high-sierra- disk-...](https://www.macrumors.com/2017/10/05/macos-high-sierra-disk-utility- vulnerability/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It's rather frightening that a bug as serious as this one got past Apple's QA. It seems like the list of known problems with the new Disk Utility is growing - recently there was a submission about how High Sierra's Disk Utility did not show unformatted disks.

<comment><USER16> Perhaps they were busy testing header font sizes in iOS?

<comment><USER17> Engineers couldn't see the bug because the code was displayed in Narrow Light font weight, color grey

<comment><USER18> Their only mistake was not making it an ever lighter grey.

<comment><USER19> Not sure whether people are downvoting you for fun, but your unreadable comment in light grey due to downvotes is hilarious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Apple needs some internal competition, iOS and macOS should never have been merged into one team. macOS needs a leader that doesn't believe desktop computing got superseded by mobile.

<comment><USER21> I whole heartedly agree. I would like at least one desktop platform vendor to not start with the defeatist mindset that Web / Mobile won. Desktop is where I do most of my productive work, the basic way I do my work (programming / research) has not improved in a long time. There is tremendous room for innovation on the desktop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Software issues among all of Apple's products have become much more numerous in recent years. I don't want to get down voted for putting the blame on Tim Cook, but I do not believe he has been a positive influence on the quality of their software.

It's sad, really. My first Mac was a late 2009 MacBook Pro. I remember _craving_ the machine before I finally splurged. After I bought it, I used nothing but a Mac for the next 6 years of my life. Those 6 years were some of the happiest times I've ever had using a computer. Everything worked flawlessly. The build quality of the machines I bought was pristine.

At the end of those 6 years my MacBook was getting buggier with each update, as was my iPhone. I ended up buying a Surface Book. I'm back on Windows for the first time since XP, and while I'm sure I made the right decision, I can't help look back 5 years ago and think that maybe the golden age is over.

<comment><USER23> I agree with the assertion of Tim Cook being a negative influence on Apple. Their product reveals just don't feel stunning anymore. I used to be enamored by their product lines, and truly envious of those people you knew that used Apple products for as much of their production pipeline as possible.

But it's so much different now. It feels less like a well crafted experience and more just an alternative. It was always an alternative, but a complementary one at that. You could buy a hammer, but you could also buy this nice, shiny, beautiful hammer, weighted perfectly to swing like an extension of your arm, etc.

I started getting this feeling right around the first iPhone release after Jobs passed away. As much as I romanticized it here, I wouldn't exactly call myself an Apple fan, nor a Jobs fan, but the sort of impact and hype he could build felt a lot more exciting than Cook for me. And that kinda sucks because I know Apple has some great people with even greater ideas.

<comment><USER24> I didn't want to believe that the loss of Jobs' would change much, but sadly time has shown otherwise. I miss the days of the annual iPod lineup, where each year would bring some totally new, radical design even though last year's was stunning and enough to last at least 2-3 years as the flagship model. The ever-changing iPod Nano lineup is clearest to me.

When Jobs' was asked why he would change something that was already above and beyond anything else on the market, his response was "If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will."

Geeze, I really miss Steve Jobs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The Password got written in plain text on disk. It can possibly be recovered by some obscure technique (wear leveling reserve I'm looking at you) and should be considered burned.

</comment><comment><USER26> I made the jump off of HFS+ a few months back, as soon as I heard a new FS was coming. After years of keeping TBs of data on Mac OS on HFS+ as a home file server, I was just completely fed up. My external volumes were dead without a Mac. Nothing can read them, without paying for special software, and even that doesn't work correctly.

Now, I know there are many things that can read HFS+ in Linux and Windows, but none of them cover 100%. Sometimes you can't write, sometimes you can't mount on boot, other times you can't rely on it as a long-term solution.

I spent weeks copying everything over to a NAS, and I have never looked back. Apple should have gone with ANYTHING open source, or even remotely open standards, but it seems like the lesson they've taken from Jobs' legacy is "be different for difference's sake."

I know they've open sourced the iOS kernel, but that's because it doesn't matter. It doesn't keep you locked in, like XCode keeps you locked into Mac desktops. The Apple world went from innovating in UI and design, to innovating in supply chain management and pricing structures.

</comment><comment><USER27> _"Your password might be displayed instead of your password hint if you used the Add APFS Volume command in Disk Utility to create an encrypted APFS volume, and you supplied a password hint.

Changing the password on an affected volume clears the hint but doesn't affect the underlying encryption keys that protect the data."_

They go on to advise users to do a backup, format, restore cycle.

I guess they are that paranoid because the old password may have been leaked, and, with it, the attacker may have recovered the encryption key for the volume. Or is something else going on?

They also advise (rightfully so): _"If your disk password for any affected encrypted APFS volume is the same as the password that you use for a macOS user account or an internet service, you should change the password of the user account or internet service"_

</comment><comment><USER28> It does seem like there are a ton of really huge bugs in recent OSX and iOS releases. I just got bitten hard by this bug with dashes in iOS: [http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off- ios-...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn-off-ios-11-smart- punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems) \-- I've been writing an academic article on my ipad pro, and I just realized that the damn thing ate a ton of my text---whenever the "smart capitalization" feature sees something that looks like an em dash, it inserts a null byte and blows up the end of the string.

How did this thing get through testing without anyone ever typing an em dash?

</comment><comment><USER29> Apparently the supplemental update also fixed the Keychain extraction vulnerability [https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT208165](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208165)

</comment><comment><USER30> Wow. This is very obscure language and I'm disappointed. They don't even mention that this is a "BUG".

I didn't have any trouble with High Sierra so far, but was disappointed to upgrade to iOS 11. It is still unstable. A lot.

<comment><USER31> How is this obscure, and why do they have to mention it's a "BUG"? This is a support article for how to fix the issue. There's no reason why the article needs to say "Hey this is a bug", because the whole reason the support article exists is because of the bug.

<comment><USER24> So should Security Bulletins released by Apple and Microsoft not state that a vulnerability/exploit was found since stating how to fix it implies that one existed?

This support article speaks mostly to people who have already seen the symptoms of the bug. It doesn't do anything to inform people who may still be affected but haven't noticed it yet.

<comment><USER31> This isn't a security bulletin. It's an article explaining how to fix the issue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> If we're bashing Apple's engineering quality, have no further look than the Apple Music App on Android.

Some examples:

* App crashed for no apparent reason multiple times

* Bug where on multiple occasions music won't be added to my playlists

* Bug where music not downloading after pressing the cloud icon. I always have to press it twice before the download begins, which seems like an obvious bug

Like, these are features that should be nailed down. I developed an android app which did file downloads. Press the button and download begins or is queued. Will tell users that the download fails, which is better than nothing.

<comment><USER33> Try iTunes on Windows.

I'm pretty they deliberately make it slow and clunky on Windows.

Also, for some reason the CC input for Month just showed 4 out of 12 months so I could not even subscribe. Seems like they really don't give a crap.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Since this thread is broadly about Apple losing its edge as a fairly secure- by-default platform:

I installed Windows 10 on a computer and use it from time to time and the built-in anti-virus and malware protection makes me feel more comfortable running unsigned applications on Windows than I feel running them on OSX.

I find myself wishing that Apple would take similar responsibility for security (virus, malware) threats. One possible reason Apple is not doing this is because the next iteration of MacBooks will run iOS and unsigned apps will not be possible without jailbreaking.

<comment><USER24> Doing that on MacOS would be the death of it. Apple does have the audacity to move towards that direction (OS X already makes you jump through a few hoops with downloaded unsigned apps) but even they know that a lot of their users are developers who need that freedom.

<comment><USER34> I could see XCode and Command Line Tools becoming apps. And Homebrew could be an app that let all of its contents run in a sandbox and not touch any of the device's other data.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I so wish Apple had not removed the older Sierra installer from the Mac AppStore... I need to update some machines but High Sierra does not seem ready for reliable use yet.

<comment><USER36> If you've downloaded Sierra on another Mac before, you can still find the Sierra installer in the Mac App Store in the "Purchases" tab.

If you don't have it in your purchases list, you can just ask a friend who has it to download Sierra for you from the Mac App Store.

Then you can just copy the Installer app on a thumb drive and run it on your Mac.

Only problem might be that maybe you can't download Sierra from a machine running High Sierra...

UPDATE: I'm wrong, see comment below.

<comment><USER37> They stopped doing that with Sierra:

"macOS Sierra or later doesn't appear in the Purchased tab. Instead, use the Search field in the upper-right corner to find and open the App Store page for the current version of macOS."

[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201272](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT201272)

<comment><USER38> Note, however, that if[1], and apparently only if[2], you've downloaded Sierra from the App Store in the past, you can install

[https://github.com/mas-cli/mas](https://github.com/mas-cli/mas)

and then use the command

        mas install 1127487414

to download the latest Sierra installer from the App Store.

[1] It worked for me.

[2] Or so I've heard.

<comment><USER37> Thanks a bunch! I downloaded and stashed a copy of Sierra when it first came out, but I recently bought a new Mac that came with Sierra (likely a point release and 10.12.0 likely won't install). I can restore from a netboot, but like having something I can put onto a USB drive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> "Erase the affected volume" is really the best solution they could come up with?

<comment><USER27> I think encryption uses a generated key to encrypt most of the disk, and stores that key encrypted with the user password on the disk. That makes changing the password fast; they only need to re-encrypt the encrypted key with the new password, and write it out. Problem is that an attacker who knows the old password may already have decrypted the generated key, so they can decrypt the encrypted data from the raw data, even after the password was changed.

Erasing generates a new key for the data. I think it could be done without reformatting, but they still would have to read each block, decrypt with the old key, encrypt with the new, and write back the result. Testing the recovery procedure for that (how do you know where to restart that after it crashed?) would be a challenge, though.

<comment><USER40> Couldn't you just turn off FileVault (decrypts the drive), let that finish, then turn it back on again?

<comment><USER27> I guess that doesn't remove the master key. Maybe, it also is used as the ID that uniquely identifies the disk?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Apple Computer has always been a pioneer on the cutting edge of accessibility and ease-of-use.

I'll bet it will even read your password out to you with the speech synthesizer, clearly and unambiguously spelling out each of the upper and lower case letters, digits and symbols.

</comment><comment><USER42> I have a number of friends who use OSX and Windows, and keep telling me "just give up on Linux (or FreeBSD) and use something which Just Works!"

Well, except for stuff like this. Or the built-in advertising. Or the VBA code that beachballs in Excel Mac but not Excel Windows. Or the buggy, crashy drivers. Or the awful printing experience. Or the ability to reliably predict behaviour when plugging in external monitors or projectors. Or ...

I _think_ what most people mean by "Just Works" is "I don't have to edit configuration files in order to set up my system", not "my system is reliable and predictable."

</comment><comment><USER43> The way they wrote the article really convinced me that it was a minor issue.

<comment> amiga-workbench They train their Apple store staff to speak in a similar manner, to play down any problems and try to sidestep aknowleging that there is a fault with the product.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> how??! In what context does a clear-text password end up anywhere, except as the input for a hash function.

<comment><USER45> I would guess that the bug was in the front-end code for the password form. At that point the code obviously has access to the plain text password. I'm imagining a copy-paste bug like this:

       storePassword(form["password"])
       storeHint(form["password"])

<comment><USER14> What makes that theory even more plausible is that the bug doesn't appear in the command line diskutil.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> I'm sure the approach to dealing with this will be some variation of restorative justice instead of a public pillory and termination of an entire team like Steve did to the MobileMe Team.

</comment><comment><USER47> If you don't want to reformat (and you aren't re-using a password you've used elsewhere) you can change the password:

1\. Open Disk Utility and select the volume 2\. Select File, Change Password 3\. IMPORTANT: If on High Sierra GM, leave the hint field blank. If you've installed the update then you can provide a new hint.

Word of warning: the most secure course of action is to follow the instructions in the linked support article.

<comment><USER46> And leave the old hint sitting on your drive as "\x00ld-password"? No thanks.

<comment><USER48> "(and you aren't re-using a password you've used elsewhere)"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> As there are a few mac gurus on this thread - an OT question... colleague has 2014 rMBP and used HDMI out and a DVI adapter via thunderbolt port to have two external displays.

Sierra update killed that - only one display will work at a time.

prams zapped, settings fiddled with, cables tested in millions of combos and even playing with AppleGraphicsControl.kext

Any other ideas? Seems nuts an update can kill such a thing!

<comment><USER50> Connect the other monitor via thunderbolt->HDMI adapter? You're right, it does seem silly. Possibly just coincidental?

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Hmm I'm still on El Capitan because of aperture and iPhoto. This thread makes want to stay there forever.

<comment><USER52> Had Apple been anything like Microsoft, you would be able to stay there for another 10 years while they sorted things out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> The ultimate hint.

</comment><comment><USER54> So how do you test if you are affected?

<comment><USER25> Look at your password hint for disk encryption.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Why isn't this a 10.13.1 update?

<comment><USER38> One plausible reason is that they've already released a 10.13.1 beta, announced features and API changes coming in 10.13.1, and started revising documentation to reflect changes introduced in 10.13.1, so branding today's update "10.13.1" would result in a nontrivial amount of extra work and confusion, in exchange for...what, exactly?

The updated version _does_ come with a new full App Store installer and build number (17A405), however, so it's as easy to install and identify programmatically as a new "point release" would be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> Perhaps you should test your security _before_ you test your (graphic) "design".

Good grief.

</comment><comment><USER34> Would this vulnerability also exist in iOS devices using APFS?

<comment><USER57> It's a flaw in Disk Utility, so no I don't think so

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> so how do you test if you are affected?

<comment><USER58> press the password hint button and see if it spits out your password :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> the site connection attempt throws this: Error code: SSL_ERROR_UNSAFE_NEGOTIATION

I guess thats not the posts message

</comment><comment><USER60> Apple is really going downhill, in every field.

I have a MacBook Pro, and the keys no longer work reliably. I also barely get 2 hours of battery life.

High Sierra keeps restarting by itself.

They removed the jack, and all ports from laptops.

They placed the charger for their wireless mouse under the mouse so you can't use it while charging, and the list goes on and on--particularly with software.

It's just not premium stuff anymore.

I've already switched to Android, and I am not buying another computer from them.

<comment><USER61> > _They removed the jack, and all ports from laptops._

What are you on about? Audio jack is there.

> _They placed the charger for their wireless mouse under the mouse so you can > 't use it while charging_

And? Mouse lasts MONTHS on a single charge. It notifies you 12 hours ahead that it needs charging. A 5 min charge can last you an hour.

I think this is a lot better than having a hole on the side of your mouse at all times.

This is an issue only to those who've never used it.

> _and the list goes on and on--particularly with software._

Please list it. I'm dying to know more!

> _It 's just not premium stuff anymore._

Silly opinion.

> _I 've already switched to Android, and I am not buying another computer > from them._

We're talking about Macs. What does Android have to do with it? You're mixing up your hate memes.

PS: You clearly never even owned a Macbook Pro. You're probably getting your "facts" from bullshit 4chan memes.

<comment><USER62> The mouse thing really irks me. The moment the mouse needs charging is the moment is stop working. So why am I expected to then _not use the product_ while it charges? A product that _used to have a wire connected to it and is sitting right next to the computer_? How is having a hole in the bottom at better than having a hole on the side?

<comment><USER63> I don't think it's about the hole. Someone decided:

\- users would have a better experience if the mouse was wireless

\- if left to their own devices, users will tend to leave the mouse plugged in and use it as a wired mouse

so they solved that contradiction by taking away the option of missing out on wirelessness.

<comment><USER64> Can confirm I have a hybrid wired/wireless mouse (Logitech G700s) and I generally just leave it plugged in.

Which works fine, so I'm glad Logitech decided not to be assholes about it.

<comment><USER64> Incidentally if anyone's looking for a mouse, Logitech really handles this perfectly. When it's plugged in to USB they use the cable for power + data so there's a tiny bit less latency and no worries about signal dropping. It switches the data to the wireless dongle automatically if the cable is unplugged.

The mouse runs off of a single rechargable AA battery (came with an Eneloop brand NiMH which are well regarded). If your battery dies you can either plug it in to charge or just pull the battery and swap in a fresh one. Since it's a standard battery you can toss the dead one in a normal NiMH charger.

A+ mouse, would recommend.

<comment><USER65> I second the recommendation, been using a logitech performance MX mouse for probably 4-5 years now. My company gave out the apple mouse and I made them specially order the MX for me. I am a creature of comfort though as I did the same for my keyboard.

<comment> dylan-m I did the same. I tried to use the Apple mouse for a couple months, I really did, but I felt my wrists turning into frozen fish and decided enough was enough. (This was the previous generation mouse where you needed to replace the AA batteries yourself, like a barbarian. Are the current ones shaped any differently at least?). Brought in my old Das Keyboard while I was at it. World of difference. And I don't feel any less cool, despite there being several physical buttons and a hole on the side of my mouse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> Okay... can somebody spoof/re-spin the relevant xkcd? [https://xkcd.com/538/](https://xkcd.com/538/)

</comment><comment><USER67> It's a shame what's happened to Apple since Jobs died. Boring hardware coupled with increasingly buggy software.

</comment><comment><USER68> how do you have infinity billions of dollars and fuck that up, damn</comment>


London's first underground farm launched - <AUTHOR> http://www.londonsdc.org/news/43/London-Leader-Steven-Dring-launches-Londons-first-underground-farm/ <comment><USER2> That banner... Why?</comment>


Nodejitsu unveils: Flatiron web framework for node.js - <AUTHOR> http://flatironjs.com/

<comment><USER2> Nice, lightweight framework, but the template system (Plates) seems weak. It only binds to DOM elements. This means two things: a) You always have to use HTML for all of your templates; b) You have to create a new DOM element for each variable. Example
Hello
Batman

 instead of
Hello <%= name %>

<comment><USER3> that the entire point of the templates component.

`<div id="greet">Hello <%= name %></div>` is a biproduct of many years of webservers not being able to parse DOM structures. DSLs come and go. they make markup non-portable. Moving away from DSLs is a step toward a more portable stack.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think that's one of the most mobile hostile web pages I've seen in a while. Not really a great advertisement.

</comment><comment><USER5> It is live now. We had a lot of repositories to move over on Github. Held us up by about an hour.

</comment><comment><USER6> this link should be on the website somewhere: <https://github.com/flatiron>

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't know if it's intentional but it currently 404s and that is everything I expected from node.js.</comment>


Show HN: Start actually reading what you saved in your bookmarks – Meet Mailist - <AUTHOR> http://mailist.app <comment><USER2> Ironically I've just saved this in my bookmarks to set up later on

</comment><comment><USER3> Wow, this is awesome! I didn't even know I needed this until I peered into my dusty bookmarks folder, and realized I never actually got back to the articles I promised myself I'd finish.

It's also a very pretty site/extension (I'd say it's a Stripe tier landing page!). However, the list of bookmarks is a little low contrast. Perhaps it looks better on a hidpi macbook or something (macos does fonts differently I think) but on my 1080p PC, it's barely readable.

Also, on Firefox, I get a nag bar at the top that tells me "Store links from anywhere on the web with Mailist for Chrome." Clicking the X button does nothing.

Great work though! I will be using this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks a lot for the feedback. Will definietely work on readability and fix the bug with the banner.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Perhaps obvious in this day and age, but bear in mind the privacy policy given that it has permission to read all of your browsing activity and obviously, all your bookmarks: _We will not sell, rent, loan, trade, or the other way disclose your information with third parties unless such disclosure is necessary to: ... (d) promote our commercial interest_

<comment><AUTHOR> We are collecting only the email address and anonymously analyze links to implement auto categorizing really soon and help us create a base for personalized ads. We need to include the point you pasted in our Policy since we are using for example Google Analytics - which is a third party tool- which basically collects and process user information.

We built this tool because we needed it and decided to share it with others.

Oh, and you can remove your account and links anytime.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wow, this is actually a really, really good idea and a great looking landing page for it along with a great explanation video.

How are you making money with this? This is awesome!

I now wish I came up with it before you did ...

Question: What is the website built on? Feels like NuxtJS but can't see anything to do with Nuxt in page source.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not making any money yet, but the maintenence costs are low enough we can live with it. We are planning paid features which will be live soon. Also, we are planning to introduce some kind of personalized ads so it can help us with the revenue.

The app is built in Rails :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Congrats for the launch! Looks good.

Is there a way to import or sync existing browser bookmarks? I'd prefer to keep bookmarking in Chrome (cross-device), like many other users I suppose.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks! You can easily import bookmarks from Chrome using Import feature. You can access it from your account settings.

<comment><USER6> Cool, anyway to auto-sync with Google bookmarks?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thats interesting idea. We will definitely think that through</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Goldman invested $1.3B of Libyan funds; lost 98% of value - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/31/us-goldmansachs-idUSTRE74U0I920110531

<comment><USER2> Title is incorrect. Goldman Sachs did not invest _in_ the Lybian fund. It invested money _from_ the fund, i.e. managed the fund on behalf of Lybia.

A better article at WSJ: [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230406650457634...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576347190532098376.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> The Reuters title is hard to parse. I've changed the preposition to _of_.</comment></comment>


500M years ago, this critter had a really bad day - <AUTHOR> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/500-million-years-ago-this-critter-had-a-bad-day/article22984858/ <comment><USER2> > In the case of Marble Canyon, the site's proximity to the highway means that > protection from souvenir hunters is an additional concern. So far, that > protection consists of keeping quiet about the site's exact location.

Isn't it kind of trivial nowadays to determine location from such photos?

<comment><USER3> Some years ago in McDonald County, Missouri a new highway was being built when they discovered a cave of Native American artifacts. The new highway was being built alongside the old one, and the existence of the cave was soon made public. For months afterward there was a guard vehicle posted at the entrance to that cave 24/7, until the site could be suitably explored and artifacts cataloged.

<comment><USER4> They were fortunate to have the funds for a guard. Most digs don't have that money so security through obscurity is the best alternative. It's a common problem in the American southwest where, if news of a new site gets out, pot hunters can come in, strip, and destroy a site over-night.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It always seems to me that these paleontologist still use medieval technology. Hammer and chisel. They hit the rock and hope for the best, where the best case is that there will be fossil split in half. Imagine if they had some kind of "rock MRI" or something like that. Or perhaps using laser to etch thin layers and then combine them in PC into 3D model. Come on!

<comment><USER6> There is no better tool than a geologic hammer.

MRI machines weigh tons, as rocks do, so there isn't any practical way to do field sampling. The only portable tool available for field work is a ground penetrating radar, and it requires lots of power. Making even a moderately steep hike to these remote locations with just your survival gear is beyond exhausting, so lugging machines and rocks becomes a huge challenge: impossible. Transporting the equipment mechanically is an incredibly costly endeavor.

An image from a GPR looks like this: [http://mysite.du.edu/~lconyers/SERDP/figure1_pit_house.jpg](http://mysite.du.edu/~lconyers/SERDP/figure1_pit_house.jpg) \- as you can see, the GPR can go through rock, but, what they're seeing is a pattern difference: signal pattern, that is. The GPR doesn't have an imaging resolution to be able to assemble an accurate point cloud, like you would with photographic imaging to make a 3D model. Instead, it's like watching spray from a water hose encounter an object - you can only really tell the water stream hit something, and its rough shape.

I haven't used lasers for imaging in a decade, but they didn't make clean cuts: they burn right through what you're trying to image. I believe it's not a solution for sampling rocks. Though, a hammer can cleave right through a rock and be done with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> And now to add insult to injury, you get excavated, mounted, and displayed in the moment you soiled yourself in death.</comment>


Show HN: An interactive guide to compression basics - <AUTHOR> http://unwttng.com/compression-decompressed <comment><USER3> I find it funny that GIFs are still being referred as GIFs [1] while most places serve them as h264 yuv420p MP4s [2].

[1] [https://i.giphy.com/l0Iy1ZcHArR9aAQta.gif](https://i.giphy.com/l0Iy1ZcHArR9aAQta.gif) (2.7MB)

[2] [https://i.giphy.com/media/l0Iy1ZcHArR9aAQta/giphy.mp4](https://i.giphy.com/media/l0Iy1ZcHArR9aAQta/giphy.mp4) (307KB)

[3] [https://media.giphy.com/media/l1J3OGcUiw8NeXuM0/source.mp4](https://media.giphy.com/media/l1J3OGcUiw8NeXuM0/source.mp4) (146KB) <\-- optimized with ffmpeg

<comment><USER4> It reminds me of how viral images are referred to as memes, often by people who are ignorant of the original and fuller meaning of the term as a viral idea (as opposed to and deliberately reminiscent of the view of a gene being a viral biological entity, as in "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, who coined the term "meme" itself).

Of course, the term "viral" is itself used metaphorically here, and is also used as an analogy to a biological entity. But in this case, I think more people are aware of the existence of viruses than they are of the original meaning of the term "meme", though they might not make the conscious connection between a "viral" idea, video, or image and that of a biological virus or how it spreads "virally".

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I caved and added a "toggle pointless gifs" button, history will judge me well

<comment><USER5> I actually came here to commend the author for letting me opt out of the nonsense. It may not seem like a big deal for you but the images are distracting to me, require more scrolling in order to reference something that was mentioned previously and do not add anything to your content.

BTW I think your content is great and I imagine you think so to. You commented on the fact that most of the comments were about the GIFs and not the content. I think that should be a not so subtle clue about the value of some lady waving in front of a green screen.

<comment><USER4> I read 90% of my content in emacs-w3m, in the terminal, where no images load unless I deliberately want them to. It also has the advantage of getting rid of javascript and most page design nonsense, flash, non-text ads, and various "Web 2.0" annoyances.

The result is beautiful, consistently formatted, lightweight, and perfectly readable plain text (fully integrated with my editor/OS, incidentally).

<comment><USER6> the most hacker news comment ever

<comment><USER7> This comes close, but I think there was one where one user talked about how they use Spacemacs (Emacs with Vim style editing), and use Org files[1] to bascially plan their life. Meetings, Calendar events, reminders, notes, TODOs, you name it.

[1]: [http://orgmode.org/](http://orgmode.org/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I found this quite hard to read despite the interesting content, mainly due to the animated gifs inserted throughout the article. It's very hard to focus on a line of text when there's an image darting around on the page. I wonder why the author decided to include them?

<comment><USER9> The _fun_ images may have seemed like a way to lighten things up, but here they're a distraction from the content.. even as still images, every section break doesn't need a happy monkey or Poison Ivy.

<comment><AUTHOR> Damn though they are _fun_

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Gary Bernhardt has a great live screencast where he writes a compressor - <USER2> anyone that found this hard to follow: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eu9ZVZEZ3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eu9ZVZEZ3I)

<comment><USER11> Awesome, I love Gary's videos, and this is one I haven't seen. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Lose the gifs, and you have a very good article. I think they distract, rather than enhance.

<comment><USER13> Or at least a way to toggle them all off at the beginning

<comment><AUTHOR> Done, please enjoy your (mostly) gif-free reading

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> OP here - I'm seeing 50/50 support for the gifs. I'm keepin my gifs. I like the idea of adding, and will probably implement, a toggle for all extraneous gifs. I love that most of the commentary about this article is about the gifs. Gifs.

<comment><USER14> I wouldn't mind the GIFs if they were A. smaller (most of them take up a good 2/3rds of the height of my viewport at 1600x900) and B. could be paused. They're humorous at first, but then they're distracting as I'm trying to read the stuff around them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The pixel art doesn't show up for me in Firefox or Edge. (Looks like they're there, just with a height of 0px?) Also, my motion-sensitive lizard brain thanks you for the gif toggle button.

<comment><AUTHOR> On it, just me being a shitty web dev :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Unless I mis-read or mis-understood you seem to invert the meaning of compression ratio half way through ?

> (100 / 200) = 0.5. Protip: compression ratios less than 1 are frowned upon.

> Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Say we had an algorithm (let's call it > A) that, given any input whatsoever, was capable of achieving a compression > ratio of strictly less than 1.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did indeed, thanks for the catch - fix incoming

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Once you understand RLE, LZ is only one step away --- instead of repetitions of individual characters/bytes/etc., you encode repetitions of longer strings.

But starting with RLE is IMHO definitely a good choice --- far better than Huffman, as a lot of introductory material seems to do. A minimal LZ12/4 (4KB window, 18B max length; an old favourite of the demoscene intro packers) compressor/decompressor pair is literally a few hour's worth of work, and yields surprisingly good compression for its simplicity, much better than simple order-0 Huffman.

</comment><comment><USER18> This is nice! One minor error - 本 does not mean a tree, but a book or a root. 木 would be appropriate for the word 'tree'.

</comment><comment><USER19> Contrary to the rest of the comments here, I enjoyed the gifs.

<comment><USER20> Same here.

<comment><USER21> Didn't bother at all here either. Great article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm probably getting old because I can't stand this new trend of putting useless gifs (or mp4's actually) every two paragraphs in every article on the web. Oh, and of course all of them have autoplay enabled because sole purpose of my laptop's fan is to happily spin at full speed. </random rant>

</comment><comment><USER23> Awesome! Thanks!

Any chance you want to do one on compression of a integer time series? How about variable length integers? Such an article would be very appreciated in IoT circles since data (timed voltage values) transfer and storage can get quite expensive for dollars and latency.

Cheers!

</comment><comment><USER24> The first example (tree represented in Japanese) seemed a bit misleading, because the "alphabet" has not been kept as a constant. Since the Japanese alphabet is much larger, it may be argued that the number of bits actually occupied in storage by "本" and "tree" are about the same. Could someone clarify if this is correct reasoning?

<comment><USER16> One could argue that in information theory terms, there is more information encoded in a single "本" than a single "T".

However, this article is dealing with the concept of compression in terms of a simple symbolic representation of data.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I really like the article. One point if like to see: you stepped over the fact that your using palettes without mentioning even though that gets you down from using 3 (or 4) bytes a pixel to 1/4\. It's a compression ratio of 8 that your completely ignoring!

</comment><comment><USER14> > This might eek out a little more compression

It's "eke": [http://www.dictionary.com/browse/eke](http://www.dictionary.com/browse/eke)

<comment><AUTHOR> Woah, TIL

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is a fantastic explanation. Thanks! (Also, I love the gifs)

</comment><comment><USER27> Add a way to toggle the gifs off at the beginning for people that don't like memes distracting them from the content and you've got yourself a winner.

<comment><AUTHOR> Done and done

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Great article, would be interested in more in depth articles on say, JPEG compression in the future.

Really liked the better/worse thing too, added some nice comparison

<comment><USER29> I came here to ask the same. Can anyone recommend more in depth articles about compression?

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Fantastic article. I really enjoyed the inclusion of a live, clickable demo with example output. Absolutely well done (after I disabled the GIFs).

</comment><comment><USER21> Great article, exquisite gifs. :^)

Including the size of each Obama JPEG could be pretty interesting too.

</comment><comment><USER31> I toggled the gifs off since I read the comments before the article. I must say, the article is excellent and you could even share it with a non-technical manager or spouse*

*goes ands talks to wife about compression basics :)

</comment><comment><USER6> write a follow-up. it's interesting

<comment><AUTHOR> Any thoughts on what you'd like to see in particular? Likely to be more of the same interactivity

<comment><USER32> I'd like to see some examples of how lossy compression algorithms work

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> > TODO - proper formatting for maths-y notation

Hmm

<comment><AUTHOR> Ewwww cached web</comment></comment>


The Trouble with Theories of Everything (2015) - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/29/scaling/the-trouble-with-theories-of-everything <comment><USER2> In my view one of the puzzles of physics is actually its success over the past couple of centuries. That we have such precise and comprehensive models of _anything_ could not have been anticipated.

But this success doesn't guarantee future success or a predictable rate of future progress. Whenever we agree to work on a fundamentally new question, we are never sure whether the answer will arrive in 5 minutes or 5 centuries. Reconciling quantum mechanics and gravity might be a 5 century problem for all we know.

Likewise, we can never claim with assurance that any non-trivial question is un-answerable. When problems get hard, books get written about the boundaries of science.

As I understand things, it took humanity some 1000 years to solve quadratic equations.

<comment><USER3> Depending on how you count (no pun intended) it took 4,000 years to invent the number zero.

<comment><USER4> What are these 1000/4000 year starting points? From when mankind evolved?

<comment><USER3> Actually it turns out I was off by an order of magnitude. The earliest recoded number systems date back 40,000 years [1]. Zero was invented about 5000 years ago [2].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_sys...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_numeral_systems)

[2] [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the- origi...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-is-the-origin-of- zer/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I enjoyed reading the article. This reminded me of my own work, in which I apply various theories in every interaction with my clients. Some of the models with which I'm familiar are very detailed and provide some amazing scaling features such that they work on multiple levels. However, no sooner do they do that then they begin to require the construction of abstract models just to understand and leverage them, to say nothing of properly testing them in depth. Even so, each one of these models gives me a slightly different lens on a problem, and those lead to new and varied leverage points. For that they are extremely useful.

As an aside, I was also reminded of role-playing simulation systems like Fate, GURPs, and Risus--all of which can model entire worlds, but each of which does so with varying experiential 'leverage points'. GURPS can offer the experience of quantifying a solar system, if you want that. You can then look at Risus and maybe it's simple and not substantive in that way, but that doesn't give due credit to its capability within specific boundaries like time, experience level, etc. IMO the boundary concept is important to embrace and appreciate in any theoretical or even any human endeavor, otherwise theories / models can start to leak leverage, so to speak.

</comment><comment><USER6> > nature, as Feynman once speculated, could be like an onion, with a huge > number of layers

Much of this was like woosh to me admittedly, but in between the Greek; happy to see that even distinguished scientists with degrees seem to think that we are nowhere near understanding 'the mind of God' as the late Stephen Hawking once or twice proposed we might be, may he rest in peace.

So, a TOE seems more and more improbable. The most sane and reasonable stance IMO would then be to _suspect but not know_ an _infinite_ number of layers, scales and dimensions, be it in terms of time, space or speeds.

Such a position would seem useful in theory-creation as it would free our assumptions about the universe from our natural human-centered prejudices in a radical way.

And philosophically, place us in the center of the universe again in a way (since the center of an infinite universe is everywhere).

And tentatively allow us to get a glimpse of, albeit not understand and certainly not acquire, 'the mind of God'.

But this is obviously where science ends and belief begins.

<comment><USER7> This has been roughly my position for the past few years and it has, without a doubt, multiplied my ability to understand new concepts and perceive causal relationships, among many other positive radical changes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> A similar idea was worked out in more detail by the philosopher of science Nancy Cartwright under the heading of "the dappled world":

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Laws-Physics-Nancy- Cartwright/d...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Laws-Physics-Nancy- Cartwright/dp/0198247044/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1527949009&sr=1-1)

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dappled-World-Study-Boundaries- Scie...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dappled-World-Study-Boundaries- Science/dp/0521644119)

It's interesting to see a physicist suggest something similar. Review/summary of the second (more recent) book here:

[https://philosophynow.org/issues/28/The_Dappled_World_A_Stud...](https://philosophynow.org/issues/28/The_Dappled_World_A_Study_of_the_Boundaries_of_Science_by_Nancy_Cartwright)

</comment><comment><USER9> > There is no known physics theory that is true at every scale—there may never > be

The article mentions how GR and QM have never been successfully combined together into a testable theory, how SR and QM produce infinities that need to be "renormalized" when combined together, and how there's no "direct" evidence that QED and QCD can be combined together.

The article didn't mention Thermodynamics that operates at scales between GR and QM, and how its reliance on a directed time dimension means it also doesn't combine with time-reversible GR, e.g. where has the information gone after a black hole evaporates via Hawking radiation, or what happens at the Cauchy horizon in a rotating black hole. QM is also time-reversible so I guess TD can't be combined with QM either.

<comment><USER10> Not a physicist, but I do not think thermodynamics is a physical theory in the same sense that QED or GR are: it isn't about any specific physical system or interaction, but rather a general pattern when one looks at certain properties of bulk matter on (relatively) long timescales. Feynman had a good explanation of this, but for the life of me I can't remember the reference right now -- it's either in one of the lectures in the Character of Physical Law (try the one on the distinction between past and future) or one of the Feynman Lectures chapters on thermo.

IIRC thermodynamics per se does not have to "change" to adapt to systems where quantum effects play a role. How to link abstract thermodynamic concepts to the microscopic dynamics of a specific system in which quantum effects play a role _would_ require a quantum theory, but for that we have quantum statistical mechanics ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_statistical_mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_statistical_mechanics)) which is a fairly well-developed subject.

(This leaves out connections to relativity, special or general, about which I don't know much.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Every domain of study actively tries to create a unifying Generalized theory. It's basically implied that research is attempting to completely model a system into the "Grand Unified theory of [insert domain]."

I think it's a quirk of Humanity to think that systems trend toward stability and immutability, but I'm not sure if it's possible to say for sure. In other words, there is a slight possibility that the fundamental "laws" governing systems could actually change over time. That is not to say that our perception of them changes with better tools, but that fundamental interactions may not be immutable.

</comment><comment><USER12> To summarize the article: maybe we'll never discover a unified theory and will have to live with approximations for each context. But maybe we will. But nah, we should be skeptical about that. Probably not.

Just like pretty much any philosophy ever.

</comment><comment><USER13> Godel's incompleteness is the closest we have come to the theory of everything

</comment><comment><USER14> If there is no theory of everything, then reality simply cannot be captured by a formal system of any kind.

I'm not sure that this possibility agrees with what we do know about reality. Like the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics.

<comment><USER15> The integers can't be captured by a formal system of any kind either.

<comment><USER14> Well that's not true. You can't prove every true statement about the integers, but that's not the same thing.

<comment><USER16> For every unprovable true statement about the integers, you can find a set of "non-integers" that has all the properties of integers that are provable, and in addition the unprovable statement is false.

I don't think a formal system can be said to capture the integers if it also allows such "non-integers".

<comment><USER14> I honestly don't follow your first claim or how it has any bearing on this question. Perhaps you could provide a link to the actual theorem you're describing to clarify.

<comment><USER15> GP is alluding to the fact that any unprovable true statement about the integers has a counter-model for which the statement is false which the formal system cannot distinguish from the integers. Therefore no formal system characterizes the integers, there are always these false integers lingering.

These objects are highly pathological artifacts of the formal system in question, but that just goes to show how slippery the integers are.

<comment><USER14> > GP is alluding to the fact that any unprovable true statement about the > integers has a counter-model for which the statement is false which the > formal system cannot distinguish from the integers.

Again, do you have a link or a name for the theorem you're describing?

<comment><USER15> This is a consequence of Goedel's completeness theorem: a statement in a first order theory is provable if and only if it is true in every model.

The counter models obtained for arithmetic true unprovable statements are called non-standard integers.

<comment><USER14> Ok, now we're getting somewhere [1]. So various theorems can be used to prove the existence of non-standard models of arithmetic. I'm not sure why I should find this compelling.

There are infinitely many possible models of arithmetic, each of which has different properties. Some of these are isomorphic to standard models in various ways, some of which are not.

But, if the world is governed by mathematics, then at least one such model would best match reality. How would we even speak of a world which was not internally consistent such that it could be formalized in such a fashion?

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non- standard_model_of_arithm...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non- standard_model_of_arithmetic)

<comment><USER15> I'm not sure what you're asking. Any formalization of the integers won't be "the" integers, the totality of which perhaps isn't even a reasonable idea.

Mathematics is a part of the world and does not stand apart from it. There is no reason why such a "best" model should exist, and by any reasonable definition, it doesn't. Mathematics is irrefragably incomplete. It is perhaps the only human discipline that demonstrates its own limits.

<comment><USER17> What?

Every model of arithmetic has every standard integer though?

Are there nonstandard models of second order ...

Ok Wikipedia says that "the axioms of Peano arithmetic with the second-order induction axiom have only one model under second-order semantics.", so...

<comment><USER15> Second order induction could hardly be called a formal system: There is no complete, effective proof system for it. This is the basically the same limitation on first order PA. The standard model for second order arithmetic involves the power set of the naturals which is immediately a far more complex object than any computable system; it essentially presupposes the object that you're trying to formalize in the first place.

<comment><USER17> I don't see why the lack of a complete effective proof system for it should be a problem.

I do in fact consider the power set of the naturals to exist, so I'm not sure I see the problem? Is it just that uncountable sets have elements that we cannot pick out? I don't have a problem with that.

<comment><USER15> It matters because it means second order arithmetic isn't a finite object in the same way first order effective theories are where you might have "infinitely" many axioms but they are packaged up in a finite object, an algorithm.

The whole point of a formal system, its formality, is that it doesn't require any semantic notions to describe it. Second order arithmetic with its full model is no such thing. It is inherently infinitary and therefore not formal at all.

And it's a treacherous object. C.f. Richard's paradox which demonstrates that "subset of the integers" is by no means a naive idea.

<comment><USER17> Isn't it true that the only countable model of the natural numbers (including ordering) which is computable is the standard model of the naturals?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>