Progress update from the Librem 5 hardware department - <AUTHOR> https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/ <comment><USER2> If they were "entirely" ethical (which is a silly concept but it's already been deployed on this thread so I'll run with it), they'd be more up-front about the features and limitations of their security model. So:

* Modern phones (and all the flagship phones) have had separation between their basebands and APs for years; a modern smartphone baseband is essentially a USB peripheral.

* The two largest smartphone vendors have large, world-class security teams that do things like audit their basebands. Has Purism?

* A modern flagship smartphone will have some kind of secure enclave. Apple's has dedicated silicon, and an encrypted memory bus linking it to the AP. How does Purism's hardware security model compare?

* I don't know how much Apple and Google spend annually on outside security research for their flagship phones, but it's a lot. Who has Purism engaged to evaluate their designs and spot flaws?

If you want to use a niche phone as a fashion or political statement, more power to you. But if you try to market that phone as "transparent code is the core of secure systems", I'll take issue with that; it's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for security.

This phone may very well be more "fair" or "ethical" than an iPhone. But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise.

<comment><USER3> > But if it's not as secure as an iPhone, it's unethical to claim otherwise.

This seems silly, you can easily flip this on its head and say "Well the iPhone is closed, so there's no way to verify it has any security". You can't separate the ethics of security advertising from the ethics of everything else about how the device works.

<comment><USER2> Closed source and unverifiable are more orthogonal than not.

<comment><USER4> How can they be orthogonal when eventually you need open software of some kind to make a verification?

If the software I use to verify the closed source software is closed, then I will need another piece of software to verify that the verify-ing software is what it says it is and so on until we reach a piece of software that I can verify with my own eyes (or a friend has verified with their eyes).

We all eventually have to place our trust somewhere but we shouldn't have to agree with where __you __decided to trust.

<comment><USER2> You don't need open software of any kind to verify it.

<comment><USER5> It sure helps though. And being able to compare source code to binary is good for checking blobs.

No one knows what nasties are hidden in these blobs that run on EVERY phone out there. I'd actually go as far as saying cell phone processing modules are completely insecure. Unlikely to receive updates. Poorly documented. Security standards are likely to be weakly implemented with gaping holes.

As for proof, I'd point at the lack of source code as a starting point. Open source doesn't guarantee security but it at least lets interested parties try to the degree they want or need to.

<comment><USER6> _As for proof, I'd point at the lack of source code as a starting point._

Much better proof would be frequent exploits through the vectors you consider examples glaring insecurity.

<comment><USER5> Sure. Go and have a look at GSM and friends. I'd say the cellular network in general is routinely being manipulated. The protocols and standards for over- the-air are demonstrably insecure and assuming the actual hardware is also insecure is reasonable as well.

<comment><USER6> Part of the point of this thread is that 'modern flagship phones' are designed with problems like that in mind. You're the one claiming to have 'proof' they are trivially insecure.

<comment><USER5> I pointed at the lack of source code as a starting point for proof of complete insecurity. I pointed at the ease of the existing protocols in active use as an example of that insecurity. That insecurity is the basis for Stingray fake towers. If you can fake the tower then the cellular modules can't be much better.

I'm sure various agencies are quite frustrated by their inability to use the cellular modem as an entry point into Apple's phones. That by itself is another pointer.

I didn't claim to have proof other than that.

<comment><USER6> That's proof for the values of proof that include 'innuendo'.

<comment><USER5> You haven't addressed any of my points to any particular depth. So I'm not sure why you have such faith in this tech.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > We went with Redpine Signal as their chipset does not require a firmware > download at runtime like other vendors; having a downloadable firmware would > violate the Free Software Foundation's RYF requirements.

This really does not resonate with me. In most of these chips there is a functional or partially functional firmware in ROM, then the OS applies a RAM patch to provide full functionality or address functional or security issues. I'm not sure how I would be more free or secure if Broadcom or Intel placed the full firmware in the ROM and never updated it, than if the continued to supply updated firmware blobs.

The firmware for these devices historically is riddled with security issues, just recently this CVE affected most of the Intel AC WiFi cards [1]

Also Redpine supports firmware blob updates with some versions of their hardware, so I'm not sure if they are just playing word games here by saying it will WORK without extra blobs, but then expect everyone will really still use the blobs to stay up-to-date. [2]

[1] [https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security- center/advi...](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/security- center/advisory/intel-sa-00128.html) [2] [https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...](https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux- firmware.git/tree/rsi)

<comment><USER8> I believe the FSF position is that non-updatable firmware can be considered "part of the hardware", while updatable firmware cannot. I think they're concerned that updated firmware could change how the device functions in ways you can't control.

<comment><USER7> Except that I am almost 100% certain [1] that they are using the RS9113 which as I suspected IS updateable (in some cases wirelessly) [2]. In fact in the Linux Firmware tree they have multiple firmware images depending on how you want the device to function. [3]

>The host MCU can update the RS9113 module FW over UART using the kermit protocol or over SPI using the proprietary binary protocol. The default UART baud rate is 115200 kbps 8N1 with xon/off or no flow control. For baud rate >900000, hardware flow control must be used. Refer to the WiSeConnect PRM for more info - the "Upgrading the Firmware in Module" section discusses the SPI mode and "Firmware Upgradation" section discusses the UART mode.

[1] [https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image- builder/commit/856c9caf...](https://source.puri.sm/bob.ham/image- builder/commit/856c9caf647aca14edfb125fb86b94ddb1240287) [2] [http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php](http://www.redpinesignals.com/faqs.php) [3] [https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/lin...](https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/firmware/linux- firmware.git/commit/rsi?id=c1aa76a28c8031f747f6589e9b0f5aca8924a5e7)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> A very laudable effort and hopefully it goes well. But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone. I don't see how exactly this one could get even close to trying to be ethical in the way Fairphone does, but it might just be me having a different understanding of 'fair'.

<comment><USER10> > But to be clear, the first ethical smartphone is Fairphone.

Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't entirely ethical.

<comment><USER11> > Ethical products don't spy on users. Fairphone uses Android, so it isn't > entirely ethical.

Because customers want Google.

The bootloader is unlocked. If you want to install Fairphone Open then you can. That's an Android version sans Google/OpenGapps. [1]

If you want, you can also install different firmware. Examples: LineageOS (with or without OpenGapps), LineageOS + microG, SailfishOS, UBTouch.

[1] [https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp- osos/index.html](https://code.fairphone.com/projects/fp-osos/index.html)

<comment><USER12> Can you add your own key to the bootloader and lock it again staying on your own firmware?

<comment><USER11> AFAIK you cannot. Is that ever possible, on any unlocked bootloader?

FWIW, the SoC is a SD801.

<comment><USER13> I wonder if it would be possible to implement that feature on an Android device that allowed you to flash your own custom appsboot/lk? I've only spent a little bit of time in LK stuff, but it seemed to me that that was where that functionality lives.

From leaked LG LK code it shows that's definitely where their bootloader unlock keys lived [at one point a couple of years ago].

Since the Librem device is a different beast, though, I wonder what their bootstack looks like? Super curious now!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Other than the physical switches (which sounds not all that interesting, since if I'll be in control of the software/OS, I can trust the GPIOs controlling some MOSFETs switches pretty much the same), this phone can only really differentiate itself by being very friendly to the FOSS developers/enthusiasts crowd.

A phone where you could get creative and manipulate every aspect of it without the artificial [security/functionality/SDK] limitations imposed on apps you can write for Android or that other comapny's phone OS I don't like even more.

A phone that will not get planned obsolescence.

A phone with OS that can be managed just like any other linux distro, where you can write apps in any of the readily available languages, etc.

Failing this, it's just overpriced wannabe Android clone.

<comment><USER15> I'm with you there in not really buying into the whole security, trust, and ethics story line which mostly seems to be appealing to a bandwagon of sentiments around corporate and government spying. Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise-average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the kernel for their phone, on their phone, or jiggling GPIOs to remove power from subsystems - would probably buy anything other than an Android or Apple phone. Without this both comparatively large in one respect (with respect to the set of all reasonably tech-savvy people) but comparatively minuscule in another (with respect to the set of all smartphone consumers) set of people, you're going to end up with another OpenMoko Freerunner type situation where the only people using it are the frankly ultra-fringe types like us who care more about having a pocket computer that behaves like, well, an actual computer should and are frustrated with the creative limitations of SDK-based lock-in.

I sometimes wonder how much Purism actually cares about all this security, trust, ethics rhetoric and how much of it is a bunch of geeks who just want to finally have a smartphone which can run an actual Linux distribution and figured "hey, consumers are pretty riled-up about this whole government spying thing - and it's pretty easy to audit open source software for that sort of stuff - maybe we can work an angle..."

<comment><USER14> > Unfortunately, these sentiments are probably the only reason otherwise- > average people - the kind of people who don't care about recompiling the > kernel for their phone, on their phone,

I guess that's true, but these people probably will not be the driving force of the community around the phone. They'll be helping sustain the vendor financially, which is also valuable though.

I already have a mobile device to play with with a similar design to this phone, that has a separate 3G modem and can also be made to make calls. It's a bulkier 7" tablet. It will never get an opensource GPU driver, and suspend to ram is also out of the question for now. But it's fun to play with and explore.

Recently, I had fun with adding touch UI support for u-boot, to implement a boot menu and some battery indicator:

[https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4](https://megous.com/dl/u-boot.mp4)

Also if you drop the typical Linux userspace, and replace systemd with a custom init binary, create a DRI based UI app it's possible to get cold boot times to useable GUI in 1-2 seconds from pressing a button. So I'm excited for what will be possible to do if the hardware of that phone ever materializes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I hope Purism takes as long as necessary to get the Librem 5 right. The last thing the world needs is another rushed phone design..

</comment><comment><USER17> Not directly related, but sometimes I do wonder how free software can compete with the services of the behemoths (maps, assistants, etc).

So the other day I hit this article [1] on planet.kde.org about KDE Itinerary, an application that can store your boarding passes and offer some additional services, such as calendar integration or notifications in case your destination has a different socket type, they drive on the left side, etc. It seemed quite useful and some parts are novel. Maybe there is a future for phones with just free software.

[1] [https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary- overvie...](https://www.volkerkrause.eu/2018/08/25/kde-itinerary- overview.html)

<comment><USER18> I have been using only open source apps for the last year. For basic stuff like podcast streaming and IM the Foss stuff is better than the proprietary stuff. For complex things like maps and assistants its like taking a step 5 years back in the past.

OSM and is no where near as good as google maps at most things but its still perfectly usable.

The average person probably won't be happy with a purely foss phone right now but if its something you care about then it can be done fairly easily.

<comment><AUTHOR> what podcast streamer do you use? looking for alternative.

<comment><USER18> "SoundWaves" on fdroid. I just searched podcast and downloaded the most recently updated app and it was pretty good.

<comment><AUTHOR> thank you, appreciate the response. downloading now will try for a week and see if I like, currently use podcast addict free version.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This kind of moral preening makes me sick. I will probably become a customer, but phrases like "the world's first ethical" really, really rub me the wrong way. tptacek has covered many of my issues below, but, simply put, it implies that the rest of us who work for telecoms or who choose not to buy the Purism are lesser.

"Don't do evil" hit me the same way. I assume Google is well-intentioned, but there are many, many areas in which Google and I have moral disagreement regarding the way they operate. That's fine. Principled people can differ.

The same is true with Microsoft and Kroger's and Costco and lots of other brands I deal with. I know for a fact these companies support causes I believe to be immoral. I suspect in turn they disagree with some of the causes I support. But they don't rub my nose in their superiority with smarmy phrases like "don't do evil" this or "first ethical" that.

In the case of Purism, a much quicker way to my heart and wallet is say it's completely open for the following reasons. That's enough for me. I don't need your fundamentalist preacher bloviating on top of everything else.

<comment> vertex-four Purism is a manufacturer that directly buys into the principles of the FSF - that closed-source software is probably the most important ethical issue in computing. You can read about why on the FSF's website.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> [random idea] Rather than worry endlessly about SOCs and radios not being open enough, why not build a protocol on top of blackbox components that eliminates, through some kind of encryption, the need for openness?

To push the argument to the extreme, even if you find a radio component that matches your requirement of free, it's still going to talk to a radio tower that you don't control, running a software stack that you don't approve. This problem never ends, unless you imagine some end-to-end channel that you control, and then you don't care about the lower layer's lack of openness.

Does that make any sense?

<comment><USER21> I agree with you, but the issue here is that in traditional phone architectures, the baseband processor could interrupt and monitor the execution of the main CPU (for efficiency purposes). So theoretically you couldn't be certain that your plaintext wasn't being exfiltrated. With a separate baseband, it's a lot harder (but possible) for a blackbox CPU to exfiltrate your info.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wish they would do more practical engineering work on the only real product that they do have, which is the laptop. I visit their forum from time to time, and there are multiple long standing posts with multiple people facing problems due to battery drain, fan issues, suspend/resume, freezes etc. All this grandstanding is useless if the product fails basic usability criteria.

</comment><comment><USER23> Lots of criticism here focusing on use of the word ethical. I don't care to argue semantics, I'm just really excited for this phone!

<comment><USER24> I thought that was odd too. There is one instance of the word "ethical" in an otherwise technical article and it's hardly egregious compared to the marketing speech of nearly big tech company:

> _We will continue to evolve as we understand better how this subset of the > industry works. The success of our phone is critical, as it will provide us > with the legitimacy and leverage we need to bend hardware suppliers to our > way of thinking by showing them that we have the potential to be market > leaders with ethical products that respect users._

<comment><USER25> See dang's comment way down. The link was originally to a very self- congratulatory press release from the marketing person, and later changed to a blog post with details and exposition from the CTO.

Purism's style in press releases is pretty annoying, but I really appreciate the blog posts.

I backed the phone. I've backed most GNU+Linux replacements for my iDevices.

If it half-works it will have wildly exceeded my expectations!

I wish them the very best.

<comment><USER23> Thanks, that explains a lot. Sometimes HN's moderation style of changing links causes this kind of confusion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> > The cellular modem is arguably the most complex part of a mobile phone.

Ok, so in the dev kit/final product will there be a physical switch to turn it off?

Or at least a CLI command? Possibly a GUI with a big toggle labeled "Turn off the insanely complex unauditable OS that I must run to live in the 21st century because patents"?

<comment><USER27> I would assume/hope that the "airplane mode" would do such a thing...

<comment><USER11> Yes, but the idea is that airplane mode can be faked in such a way by software that you cannot be sure its entirely off (remember Android still scanning WLAN/Bluetooth even whilst it was off?). With a hardware kill switch, you have more assurance it is off. With tinfoil, yet even more.

<comment><USER26> Tinfoil manifests a _much_ worse UX than the kill switch. The foil is physically separate from the phone and can easily get misplaced or torn such that the phone is no longer able to be secured. Moreover, the user can be so physically exhausted that they neglect to retrieve the foil from their fanny pack and properly wrap the phone (not to mention checking for any areas where holes might let the signal escape which takes extra time).

It is at least an order of magnitude quicker for the user to toggle a kill switch that resides at all times on the phone. Negligence due to physical exhaustion is thus eliminated-- as long as the user can physically access the phone they have sufficient energy to click the kill switch. And as long as the user is able to reach the phone they can access the kill switch, which isn't necessarily true for the tin foil.

Additionally, there are a variety of social engineering attacks that can cause a user to become reluctant to wrap their phone in tinfoil, reluctant retrieve the foil, and even reluctant carry their fanny pack with them. None of those attacks exist for clicking a toggle, especially one designed as an elegant part of the phone's facade (which itself may go unnoticed by the would-be attacker).

Finally, toggling an unobtrusive switch on one's phone doesn't invite onlookers to come over and start discussing unwanted topics like PGP keysigning parties, onion sites, and how the average life span would have increased by 20 years if everyone were still using Gopher.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Additional details of launch at [0].

Details on hardware report at (as of today)[1].

[0] [https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/](https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/)

[1] [https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware- report/](https://puri.sm/posts/librem5-2018-09-hardware-report/)

</comment><comment><USER28> I am totally fine with PCs, which allow me to install any OS I prefer. And I am totally fine with smartphones, which allow me to flash any ROM I prefer. This way I get both, secure hardware and private software.

</comment><comment><USER29> Looks like an HDMI mini is confirmed, which means time to build my own in-car librem-based infotainment center, starring Kodi and Home Assistant!

</comment><comment><USER5> Looks good in principle. It meets a lot of my requirements.

I'm not sure what ethical means when a corporation says it. Purism at least state what they mean and how they apply it.

What I'm looking for in a mobile phone: Good screen. iPhone X quality. 4gb ram. 16gb main storage. Headphone jack nice but not required. Linux OS. (Android is ok) Ability to write my own apps for custom accessories. Some kind of AppStore. (Debian apt repo is ok) Secure Enclave. Cellular is not directly on main system bus. Accelerated graphics. Decent sound. Fast enough to play video with background tasks. Removeable battery. Repairable.

<comment> vertex-four Sounds like you're looking for the Pixel.

<comment><USER13> The Pixels don't have removable batteries, and certainly are repair- unfriendly.

Too bad LG quit doing removable batteries, their phones with that design were relatively repair-friendly.

<comment><USER5> I think I'll wait another 12 months. The pixel / current iPhones don't excite me yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I still don't get it, why they didn't pick Plasma Mobile as their primary UX.

<comment><USER21> Does it matter? If it's open, someone can create a plasma mobile distro.

<comment><USER30> It matters for resources focus IMHO.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> So, when it is said that it is ethical, does that extend to labor conditions in Purism's upstream supply chain? I would buy such a phone for its more robust privacy, but I wouldn't call it ethical if it was produced with conflict minerals and virtual slave labor.

Not that you can really escape those realities the way things currently are.

<comment><USER16> It seems like it will be made in China, so I'm not certain it gets a checkmark for "no virtual slave labor". I could be wrong I guess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I don't see anything on their sites about accessibility features. An ethical FLOSS phone is an awesome idea, but I'm concerned that if they don't think about accessibility at all in making it then it will be hard or impossible to add those features in after the fact.

</comment><comment><USER33> Would PureOS support Android APKs? I think that is something I'd need to consider before making a leap.

<comment><USER34> I hope they dont go that way. The amount of engineering effort required to do that would be immense and it would be a constant game of playing catch up to android to ensure that all APKs work.

Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.

<comment><USER35> The way I'd do it, is support the kernel extensions needed (or some wrapper) for the android specific stuff and leave it to the community to start actually making things work. There's a lot of research and work already done out in the android community to strip off a lot of the google play stuff from android and leave you with a functional device. I suspect that a lot of that would make the job easier on the software side. The API side (display, sound, etc.) will probably be a lot more difficult but it has been done in the past. Google's done this with ARC Welder and running some APKs in Chrome. Not sure if it's open sourced or not but if it is then it'd probably handle a good part of the work.

<comment><USER34> Amount of engineering effort involved here would be immense and its unclear if a startup could achieve this and keep up with the developer/ecosystem velocity of Android.

Disclaimer: Views expressed here are my own and do not have anything to do with my employer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Every time I hear about the Librem 5, I get excited about the idea that I could run Debian, or Arch, or another open source OS on a phone. But I can find scant details about how this would be implemented.

<comment><USER37> Not sure what you mean? It gets implemented by using a touch-friendly Window Manager, touch-friendly apps, with apps for all the phone features you'd expect?

It's all open source BTW. Look at [https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism](https://gitlab.gnome.org/Community/Purism)

<comment><USER21> Yup, it's roughly the same idea as building a touch friendly website.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> This is very interesting. I couldn't find any details regarding the hardware for the initial device, I assume this is because it still in production. Is there a ball park we can expect?

I love the idea of an open source phone which could be used as a phone & laptop replacement. Even if I'm still likely to carry an iPhone as well (but probably as a wifi only device if PureOS can a handle my phone needs).

<comment><USER39> The article mentions they will use NXP's i.MX 8M which has 4 ARM A53's [0]. That would make it similar to Qualcomm's Snapdragon 410 as far as having 4x A53's, but the process and clock speeds could be different.

[0] [https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and- microcontrollers...](https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and- microcontrollers/arm-based-processors-and-mcus/i.mx-applications- processors/i.mx-8-processors:IMX8-SERIES)

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Cheap Chinaphone: €300 DNS66 and Yalp store so that nobody gets payed: priceless

There are easier ways to frustrate the tech industry. Oh and if you live in the US mobile networks will still sell you out no matter what brand your phone is. They all have to connect to cell towers.

<comment><USER12> > Over 40 models of low-cost Android smartphones are sold already infected > with the Triada banking trojan, says Dr.Web

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> They seem to be focusing a lot on phones nowadays. What about the laptops? No progress on that?

</comment><comment><USER42> Does anyone know how the camera stacks up against, maybe not iPhone X, but at least 6 or 7?

<comment><USER12> You can switch it off. [https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill- switches/](https://puri.sm/posts/hard-not-soft-kill-switches/)

<comment><USER42> Haha, okay. I'll try again:

How do they compare when explicitly turned on?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> how is it ethical? surely if it was ethical it would be spelled out what its ethics are and how it guarentees those ethics are maintained across it's entire business practices including its supply chain? I'd also expect if it is shown that it is not ethical in some way, then the phone isn't ethical, and a full refund would be provided :)

<comment><USER26> I'm pretty sure they are piggy-backing directly on the FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" certification.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Url changed from [https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap- annou...](https://puri.sm/posts/2018-09-librem5-hardware-roadmap- announcement/), which points to this post, which has more details.

</comment><comment><USER45> Why nobody can bring a hit marketing idea instead of getting stuck into a better product design trap?

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h Feel free. I await your Show HN.

<comment><USER45> Thanks! It might take a while but I hope someday.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> > we foresee a delay in production until April 2019.

This is the only bit I read, the rest was blah blah. The first entirely predictable delay of many, if I might add. They are on a long road to "Sorry we tried, here are some discount coupons for purism laptops". Well, it won't be that long really, unless a badly needed funding angel swoops in.

Their delusion is in some sense laudable, as any startup should believe it's own bullshit. But when you know better than they do about their chances, it's still hard to watch folks put themselves through this.

<comment><USER47> > Their delusion is in some sense laudable, as any startup should believe it's > own bullshit. But when you know better than they do about their chances, > it's still hard to watch folks put themselves through this.

It doesn't look like they're a startup as far as I can tell, they're a laptop manufacturer with 2 products on the market for a few years, doesn't look like there's any VC money in the mix either.

<comment><USER46> When you take on a project that requires leverage of 100:1 over your current annual profit, I'd argue you are a startup again. That commitment will easily swallow the company.

Note: I'm generously estimating their profit at around $1M year. ~$100M was the cost to bring up the Essential phone.</comment></comment></comment>


Event handling with spreadsheet formulas - <AUTHOR> Demo of a spreadsheet that links button formulas to action formulas.
https://youtu.be/R-oDB1PDWqY
Looking for feedback and early adopters <comment><USER2> this will make some people in finance very happy.</comment>


Popular YouTubers and Valve caught in underage gambling scandal - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-lotto-investigation-uncovers-colossal-conflict-of-interest/ <comment><AUTHOR> Video discussing the situation: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8fU2QG- lV0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8fU2QG-lV0)

Counter-Strike player files suit against Valve over 'illegal gambling' surrounding CSGO [http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike- csg...](http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12020154/counter-strike-csgo-illegal- gambling-lawsuit-weapon-skins-valve)

[http://www.pcgamer.com/youtuber-admits-that-his-csgo-skin- be...](http://www.pcgamer.com/youtuber-admits-that-his-csgo-skin-betting- videos-were-rigged/)

Previous Discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11971880](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11971880)</comment>


Why California Is in Trouble - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2020/05/19/why-california-is-in-trouble--340000-public-employees-with-100000-paychecks-cost-taxpayers-45-billion/ <comment> skookum-skuad Summit is a public charter school system, comprising many schools, and is not a government-run public school per se. It likely means the local parents were fed-up with their particular school/s being poorly run or maintained, and used the charter system to compete with the public option.

[https://summitps.org/enroll/enrollment- faqs/](https://summitps.org/enroll/enrollment-faqs/)

Btw, if that employee is extremely effective (pulls their weight compare to their salary), leads others well, and keeps the school performing as well or better than other public and private schools, is the amount pertinent? It's not like they're being paid like NCAA coaches and have buildings built for them.

My half sister and her husband are special ed TA's in Washington state near Spokane who are on SNAP (food assistance). They make nothing but enjoy their work.

</comment><comment><USER2> TL;DR:

"Our auditors at OpentheBooks.com found truck drivers in San Francisco making $159,000 per year; lifeguards in LA County costing taxpayers $365,000; nurses at UCSF making up to $501,000; the UCLA athletic director earning $1.8 million; and 1,420 city employees out-earning all 50 state governors ($202,000).

Using our new interactive mapping tool, quickly review (by ZIP code) the 340,390 California public employees and retirees who earn more than $100,000 and cost taxpayers $45 billion (FY2018-9)."

<comment> skookum-skuad Remember how much Sunnyvale and Mountain View firefighters and police make. There was quite a list comprising tens of millions in salaries. It might be fine if the cities can afford it compared to their other liabilities. Ideally, they want the best people and best equipment they can afford if they have stable, deep funding. I think looking at the numbers alone is counting OPM; the results, value of services, and mitigation of risks need to be benchmarked.

<comment><USER2> Generally, the fiscal cliff with police/fire isn't base compensation but the lucrative pension and (easily gained) disability benefits... and the practice of pension "spiking".</comment></comment></comment>


Are Talent Acquisitions a Sign of a New Bubble? - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/18/are-talent-acquisitions-a-sign-of-a-new-bubble/?ref=business&nl=business&emc=dlbka34 <comment><USER2> I appreciated pg's numbers:

'Paul Graham, the head of Y Combinator, the high-profile incubator and investor, answers with some numbers. Of the more than 310 start-ups that have passed through his startup factory, a mere 25 have been sold and about 18 of those were talent acquisitions. he said. That leaves more than 285 that are still toiling away. While some of those are hugely successful — Airbnb and DropBox, for example — many are not.

"You cannot get yourself acquired on demand," Mr. Graham said. "You have to do the start-up like you mean it."'

</comment><comment><USER3> An understanding of this isn't complete without reading the Gawker take on the original NYT article.

<comment><USER4> An article which is, I'm pretty sure, here: [http://gawker.com/5803176/how-to- party-your-way-into-a-multi...](http://gawker.com/5803176/how-to-party-your- way-into-a-multi+million-dollar-facebook-job)

(Took me some time to find it after you mentioned it, so I figured I'd just give others the link.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've worked with recruiters enough to know that they get a bare minimum of $20k to hook an average engineer up with a mid-level job. The rates go up with the position and the demand.

With that in mind, I honestly don't see a problem with paying $500k per engineer if they come with a great product that can improve the buyer's position. It isn't what I'd think of as a sign of a bubble, but a different way to spend recruiting money.

</comment><comment><USER6> Companies have been using acquire to hire for a long time and the fact that there are more companies being acquired doesn't by itself mean there's a bubble. When startups with no product(color) or no revenue model(flipboard) are raising money at 9-figure valuations, that's a much better indicator of a bubble than the fact that a lot of companies are being sold right now.

</comment><comment><USER7> Can we just not post articles of the form "[Is/Are] X a sign of a new bubble" from now on? Let's just all assume that everything up to and including oxygen metabolism is a possible sign of a new bubble, and get on with our lives, shall we?

</comment><comment><USER8> no, its a sign of the velocirapture.

seriously, everything is a sign of the new bubble now.</comment>


Why TV Lost (2009) - <AUTHOR> http://www.paulgraham.com/convergence.html

<comment><USER2> PG - Were/Are you talking about the death of the big screen here -- or just the network/broadcast/cable distribution?

Because I think I still see a place for the lean back screen. Effectively you have 3 screens in your life of decreasing importance.

First is the personal one. It's 3-4 inches and is in your pocket where-ever you go. Occasionally you might even speak into it and use it as a "Phone".

Second is the creative screen. This is the bigger screen at your desk where you do work. Not everyone needs one - but for serious work a larger screen plus relevant input devices are important. (This is the lean-forward screen)

Third is the lean-back/consumption screen. This is for consumption and specifically -- consumption sharing. It will likely have a number of 'computers' attached to it: maybe an xbox and appletv. This is for group entertainment (kinect/wii games, etc) and for in-person social media sharing (watchign a movie with your partner)

// I see tablets falling between 2 and 3. It's the replacement of the clipboard and a partially social consumption device.

While the third screen there is much less important than the first two (especially #1), I feel it still has a place.

<comment><USER3> He's talking about distribution, watching on some network's schedule, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> TV and the way it works didn't lose. I live in beijing for extended periods of time with nothing more than an internet connection and I can't wait to get home to watch TV, Movies, Sports...

The way TV works is far better than the internet was, which is why the internet has adapted more to the TV model then the other way.

1.) Produced content is better than un-produced content -> This holds true on the internet. Hackers News itself is successful because it is produced. Even though the community produces the content it is still produced. I can also find a million @pg - "I focus on the content" comments.

2.) Scheduled release of content -> One of the good things about being 12 hours ahead in beijing is that I wake up and all the content is ready for me to consume in the morning the rest of the day, provides little new content allow me to focus easier on my daily task then be interrupted by this tweet or news article. Sure you want to watch what you want when you want but we knew then 30 years ago when the VHS recorders came up.

3.) Large screens are better than small -> This is definitely true, watching content on little screens isn't that enjoyable, neither is watch horrible quality videos on youtube. Online content catchs up in terms of quality people will watch it on large screen TVs.

4.) 500 channels and nothing on -> I browse about 10 websites out of the Millions on the internet, compare this to TV where I watch 20 channels out of the 500 that is on my TV.

Seems like TV and the way it works is being "Copied and Localized" to the internet.

<comment><USER5> I don't have a TV at home because it's a total time sink. When I want something to watch I find it on Internet and it's much easier to look things on Internet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think in the long run, the Internet lost. All the idiots that were content watching TV have migrated here. So much for the cool cyberspace future we were all dreaming about 20 years ago.

<comment><USER7> If you define Internet as "place only accessible to me and my snotty Intellectual compadres" then yes, it's lost. I'll go even further: it never actually existed.

I don't even want that Internet of yours, where only your vision of cyberspace future is a valid one. I much prefer the current, egalitarian Internet, that everyone can put to use without the need to ask your permission or acceptance.

Some tweet inane thoughts and some contribute to the biggest, multi-lingual, freely licensed encyclopedia in the world.

Some use it to spread government propaganda and some expose uncomfortable government secrets on a scale that has never been done before.

Some express their annoyance with number of idiots in general populace and some spend hours writing useful software and making it available for free, with source.

The Internet is a messenger, not the message. That Internet is doing quite well, my friend, and it's only getting started.

<comment><USER8> It did exist, in the very, very early beginning it was accessible only to professors, grad students and the like at a few high quality universities.

<comment><USER9> ...who used it to UUCP-mail each other ASCII porn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Copyright owners tend to focus on the aspect they see of piracy, which is the lost revenue. They therefore think what drives users to do it is the desire to get something for free. But iTunes shows that people will pay for stuff online, if you make it easy. A significant component of piracy is simply that it offers a better user experience."

I find this even truer than when I first read this article.

In the past month (since buying my iPhone), I've bought many, many applications+games for the iPhone, and yesterday I discovered the magic of buying ebooks from Amazon for the Kindle app.

On the other hand, I can't buy music/tv shows online (I'm in Israel, Apple doesn't have the licensing deals here), which means I have to either give up on the music or go buy it at the store. Or listen to it on YouTube. Guess what happens most often?

</comment><comment><USER11> Last year it looked obvious that we were heading to streaming of on-demand digital video as the primary means of delivery. Although that may still be where we are heading, I see dark clouds in our future.

The "TV vs. On-Demand" comparison (if that was what Mr. Graham was referring) is less an issue now. I propose that what few saw then as a problem, is a looming one now. In other words, it's not so much "TV vs. Streaming/On- demand/digital/or whatever." It's that the old players, "TV", are now positioning (and are by far in the lead) to control the digital streaming of video from the internet.

Huge, deep pocket, long established trades, corporations, and/or markets are not supposed to gain control of emerging trades and markets. That is for new business to handle, and by which new business come into their own. (by advantage of being more lean, fast, knowledgeable about new tech/markets, better in-tune, etc) So that eventually the greatest of those new business's themselves become dinosaurs and are so replaced. This way business, knowledge, and technology progress.

Not to say that a "dinosaur" could not have this effect. Just less likely, and the likelihood I suspect will mathematically decay over time. (as the corporation becomes larger and less agile)

<comment><USER12> Some people worry too much.

This happens every time: new technology disrupts existing players, which in turn try to use their money / influence to do something about it. Then skilled people fight back with newer innovations.

News at 11.

For example, do you know how easy it is to bypass China's firewall?

         (1) setup free usage tier AWS account
         (2) start a new instance with one of the official Ubuntu images
         (3) ssh -D 2000 ubuntu@<instance-ip>
         (4) enjoy personal US-based SOCKS5 proxy ;)

The only problem with DRM is that you're prohibited by law to reverse engineer it, which means totally-legit software can be baned if not following certain guidelines (like security by obscurity) ... otherwise I'm all for DRM because it's fundamentally flawed and it's keeping them busy (like a dog chasing its tail).

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Some examples of the ways TV-style content is changing in the face of the internet:

<http://vodo.net/pioneerone> \- Pioneer One is a sci-fi TV series much like traditional series, except that it's directly supported by viewer donations, and distributed via BitTorrent.

<http://www.famicomdojo.tv/> \- Famicom Dojo explores the features and history of old Japanese videogame consoles, a good example of "long-tail" content becoming viable.

<http://www.youtube.com/show/autotunethenews> \- Catchy remixes of news and commentary shows on legacy TV. This is what happens when random people can edit and retransmit, instead of just consuming shows.

</comment><comment><USER14> [2009]

</comment><comment><USER15> Why was piracy a more predictable force than social applications? I would have assumed the opposite. I'd have thought it was predictable because it mimicked natural behavior. On the other hand, had I been born in time, I would have never guessed the concept of "stealing" music or movies would become acceptable on any level, let alone normal.

<comment><USER16> _Why was piracy a more predictable force than social applications?_

People have been copying stuff online for years ("Don't copy that floppy"). However very few people thought "grandmas and 14 year old girls" would be getting online to chat and hangout.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> one more in the trend of re-submitting old PG essays.

</comment><comment><USER18> Computers beat the TV like the automobile beat horse drawn wagon. Computers just delivered superior service at a much lower price. I am unhappy that forced advertisements are encroaching on my Internet. It is only a matter of time until the Internet turns back into one way television, where the big players produce, and the little rabbits pay a large fee to consume.

<comment><USER19> This might offend some people, but I'd argue that something like Reddit (and even HN, at times) is a modern person's version of a TV -- endless streams of interesting/useful information that can be consumed to no end. Admittedly, some sources (like HN) provide a higher signal-to-noise ratio in most cases, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be cautious about the amount we read.

Within the scope of HN, an honest question: how many AMAs or interesting heart-warming or funny stories have you read in the last month? How much do you know about VC funding, term sheets, pitches, A/B testing, SEO, HTML5, frameworks, functional programming, etc? And then, how many finished products have you built that have at least a few customers?

(Thanks HN for having a noprocrast feature.)

<comment><USER16> _I'd argue that something like Reddit (and even HN, at times) is a modern person's version of a TV -- endless streams of interesting/useful information that can be consumed to no end_

Good point. One great advantage of Internet vs. TV is that reddit/HN is 2 way and user generated and there are much less central authorities than TV.</comment></comment></comment>


Wolf Mcnally Covid-19 sutuational assessment in Flying Logic - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/WolfMcnally/status/1242381799692488705 <comment><AUTHOR> The video annotated with Flying Logic is: [https://youtu.be/aX5n0DYXnUQ](https://youtu.be/aX5n0DYXnUQ)

Exported PDF here: [https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqnhpz6puc2tagm/Coronavirus%20Situ...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/mqnhpz6puc2tagm/Coronavirus%20Situation%20Assessment.pdf?dl=1)

You'll need to open it up in a PDF reader and zoom into it to read most of the content. It is mostly a form of structured note-taking on the source video ([https://youtu.be/aX5n0DYXnUQ](https://youtu.be/aX5n0DYXnUQ)), augmented by Wolf Mcnally's own knowledge and reasoning.

Get the original source for Wolf Mcnally's Flying Logic document here:

[https://flyinglogic.discoursehosting.net/t/ncov-19-and- covid...](https://flyinglogic.discoursehosting.net/t/ncov-19-and- covid-19-situational-assessment/54)</comment>


React Tips and Best Practices - <AUTHOR> http://aeflash.com/2015-02/react-tips-and-best-practices.html

<comment><USER2> One of the things I didn't realize at first was the degree to which Relay/GraphQL appear to effectively replace a lot of Flux: [http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2015/02/20/introducing-...](http://facebook.github.io/react/blog/2015/02/20/introducing- relay-and-graphql.html)

Learning Flux sort of seems like learning how to drive stick shift on an '97 Civic while we wait for the new Tesla to arrive - useful, also a bit annoying. A central store architecture does seem a better match to what Relay will look like though.

<comment><USER3> Don't forget that Relay means replacing your RESTful routes. If you still want to work with RESTful endpoints, you are going to work with Flux.

<comment><USER4> Exactly -- nobody (yet) has written any kind of general purpose mapping from rest concepts to relay endpoints. Relay appears to leverage graph db functionality/semantics pretty heavily.

<comment><USER5> Pete hunt said it should be relatively easy to wire up a RESTful api to flux relay. And since mapping data to complex front ends is hard, but defining restful endpoints is easy, I'd rather design my database to be optimized for the complex front end scenarios. I imagine that you would be able to make a standard REST api from graphql.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Let's be real. It's 2015 and we need quite some hoops to get, in most cases, some very simple data rendered on the screen. And even with all those hoops, we are still not sure that it works in all cases. Isn't it time for better tools than react? Like functional languages that support incremental computation?

<comment><USER7> It's easy to speculate that better solutions are possible, but _noone has ever actually done it_. React (used from a more functional language, like ClojureScript) is the closest system to the world you describe which actually exists.

And no, papers and toy proof-of-concepts don't count. They are extremely interesting, and a necessary first step, but someone needs to build something large and demonstrate effectiveness in the real world before you can make an honest bid for large-scale adoption. As far as I know, no other FRP or functional UI system has done any better than React on that front, yet.

<comment><USER6> True. But consider this: if we had a functional-style language that did not do any incremental computation, only the minimal React-style of re-rendering, that would already be infinitely better. Because it would mean we wouldn't have to totally rewrite our code whenever incremental computation became a reality.

In other words, we can do it in steps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Great article. One thing I would like to mention is that using component state (this.setState) is _okay_! Central stores, and the flux architecture, are very helpful but if your state shouldn't persist after an unmount, there's no point in extracting to a central store and passing it through your entire app as props. (i.e. Whether or not a certain dropdown is expanded). Just keep that state local.

<comment><USER9> My point was that the state of the dropdown is something that perfectly fine to manage directly in the component (nothing else needs to know about it). Things like the selected value would not be something to manage using component state.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Has anybody in the client side community ever made the connection to rules engines? This flow of logic is awfully close to how a rule engine works. I wonder if people will at some point arrive at it.

There isn't a whole lot of rules engine in JS. Just nools [1] which is huge. I'd love to see a very simple forward chaining rule engine + Immutable + React and see how that would work out.

My guess is that they aren't popular at all because they have the notion of being enterprisey (Drools/Jboss). I'm a big fan of them. They /can/ make life & code very nice and elegant. Maybe somebody writes an JS adapter to clara rules [2].

[1] [https://github.com/C2FO/nools](https://github.com/C2FO/nools)

[2] [https://github.com/rbrush/clara-rules](https://github.com/rbrush/clara- rules)

<comment><USER11> I see some similarities with a stateful recursive Rete implementation. I still wouldn't go so far as to say that it is basically a rules engine.

The Rete algorithm (which is the underlying algorithm of most rule engines) trades off memory use for an O(1) execution time (where n==1 and n is the number of rules in the system). You really only gain any benefit once the number of rules grows significantly, and by then memory usage is significant enough that I wouldn't want it running in my browser. If I had a the need for a rule engine in the browser, I would invest most my effort on offloading rule processing to the server instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> What are the best resources for someone looking to learn react and jsx?

<comment><USER13> Quite seriously: [http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/getting- started.html](http://facebook.github.io/react/docs/getting-started.html)

<comment><USER14> Wow, really? As much as I have enjoyed playing with React, the docs seem very, very sparse to me. I wish I had a better suggestion, but for me it was a lot of trying things in code and googling Stack Overflow answers -- you know, the usual. (And this was, like, a week ago, not 6 months ago or whatever.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Alternatively, there is a very similar example, including a talk, right from the source: [https://github.com/facebook/flux/tree/master/examples/flux-c...](https://github.com/facebook/flux/tree/master/examples/flux- chat) [https://facebook.github.io/flux/docs/chat.html#content](https://facebook.github.io/flux/docs/chat.html#content)

<comment><USER15> Sorry, wrong react thread - and I cannot delete this post.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> With PureRenderMixin, doesn't that also prevent child components from updating in response to state changes? For example if a child component must update due to some event, but none of its parents care about that event, doesn't that cause the child not to update?

Edit: Turns out my render methods aren't pure. I query stores right render, which causes problems when using this mixin.

<comment><USER17> An often overlooked pattern in React is controller-views. When using Flux (or really, with any external-to-the-component data) you should put this Store logic in the nearest parent to the components who use it. This component is the "controller" which gets the data and passes it _as properties_ to the child components (who pass it as required to their children down the hierarchy).

This keeps your child components pure (fast, renders directly from props, uses PureRenderMixin) and keeps data access centralised to the nearest common controller-view component. It's okay to have a parent component that simply collects data to pass directly into a single child within the render() call — the parent fetches data and sets props, the child re-renders only when the props update, and there's a clear separation of responsibility between the two.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> These are all excellent points that resonate strongly with my experiences with React. Thanks for the article.

</comment><comment><USER19> Data passed to the controller view should be state from stores, not props. read the docs plz.

<comment><USER9> That's only true if you're following the canonical Flux architecture to the letter. There's little difference between having your store trigger setState() on a root component and having your store trigger React.render(<RootComponent/>) with new props.</comment></comment>


Sony Files Patent for Digital Rights Storage on a Blockchain - <AUTHOR> https://www.ccn.com/sony-files-for-blockchain-fueled-drm-patent/ <comment><USER2> You want to remove the /amp/ from the end of the URL, otherwise desktop folks might not get the story.

<comment><USER3> Updated. Thank you!</comment></comment>


JExcel – The JavaScript Spreasheet - <AUTHOR> Jexcel is a very light jquery plugin to embed a spreadsheet compatible with Excel in your website or application. You can create an excel-like table from a JS array, json or even a CSV file. You can use your copy and paste shortcuts to move data from excel straight to your jExcel spreadsheet and vice versa. You can easily integrate third-party jquery plugins to create your own custom columns, custom editors, and customize new features to your clients. jExcel has plenty of nice features such as key-value dropdown, CSV loading/exporting, multiple spreadsheets and much more. We have a large roadmap ahead for our jquery plugin and we are constantly improving, so don't forget to send us your ideas.
It is a great free alternative for Handsontable.
https://bossanova.uk/jexcel https://github.com/paulhodel/jexcel <comment><USER2> Submit this as a Show HN, will show in the Show HN tab as well.

<comment><USER3> Yes.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)</comment></comment>


Airbus to Assemble Jets in Mobile, Alabama; Start of a Global Labor War? - <AUTHOR> http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/07/airbus-to-assemble-jets-in-mobile.html

<comment><USER2> Being in the US long-term is a good idea for a potential shot at Defense Department contracts.

<comment><USER3> Yes, it seems an oversight for the article to focus only on the labor cost issue, and not the more obvious point of a US presence to dilute the "Boeing is the only American choice" argument.

It practically has its own wikipedia entry:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_between_Airbus_and_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_between_Airbus_and_Boeing#Competition_and_comparison)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How would you invest $100k in 2019? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> While I don't know...

\- if you already have a job and are happy with it

\- if you already have a career and are happy with it

\- if you have any debt or other financial obligations

\- if you have a family or other social / personal obligations

\- your definition of "invest"

...I'll go ahead and give my nontraditional "dream big" answer. Chase your dreams and invest in yourself. Master your desired skill. Turn it into an income source. You've got 4 years to do so.

Just for the sake of argument, let's assume your monthly expenses are $2,000 USD. If you're a guy/gal in the western world with little/no debt and no major familial obligations, this is plenty of money to live very comfortably basically anywhere in the world, other than the top ±100 most expensive cities. Skip Tokyo, London, NYC, SF, Hong Kong, Oslo, Vancouver, etc. Go for Lisbon, Berlin, Budapest, Hiroshima, Vienna, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Bangkok, instead.

At $2,000 per month, $100,000 gives you just over 4 years in runway. This is conveniently the exact amount of time to achieve "mastery" according to the 10,000 hour model. 50 hours a week X 50 weeks per year X 4 years is 10,000 hours. Personally I find the Mastery model put forth by Robert Greene in _Mastery_ to be a good guide.

No matter what your passion is - painting, photography, writing novels, making movies, being an actor, building a startup - there's a pretty good chance that you can figure out how to make a living from it in 4 years. People that have enough time, focus, and financial resources to dedicate toward mastering their craft for _years_ are extremely rare, especially in this day and age.

Of course, if you're already happy with your career choice, then you can ignore all of this advice.

</comment><comment><USER3> Lab grown meat. There's a huge market for it, the economics make sense, and it's improving at a rapid rate. I wish I had some money to invest in it.

</comment><comment><USER4> Domaining, .Com only. Lots of ways and strategies, spend time learning before investing.</comment>


Show HN: PricingPage – showcase your plans and pricing with a few clicks - <AUTHOR> https://pricing.page <comment><AUTHOR> Hey all - thanks for taking the time to check this out.

PricingPage ([https://pricing.page](https://pricing.page)) is the fastest, easiest way to implement a beautiful pricing page for your landing site.

As someone who likes to build things, I have often found myself googling for pricing page templates and conversion optimization tips to help save me time and optimize my landing pages. I was surprised to find many, many articles on building effective pricing pages, but very few tools to actually help do it. Also, as I've put together checkout flows using Stripe for my new pricing pages, I've come to learn first-hand how quickly your Stripe plan data can get out of hand if not properly organized. That's why I decided to build this tool.

We help you organize your pricing and plan data, and from it generate embedded widgets for your page. We also are working on integrating directly with Stripe to manage your products and plans directly, and streamline the subscription checkout process between Stripe and your landing site. You can see a working example of this in action on our landing page.

Please give it a try, would love to get as much feedback as possible, still very much a work in progress. If there's anything you want added for your widget, feel free to reach out and I will do my best to add it ASAP! Also, I'd be happy to hand out free 1-year Pro subscriptions for the next 24 hours - just reply here or ping me at adam at pricing.page.

Thanks again!</comment>


New York Times Paywall is only for Windows? - <AUTHOR>

Ok, I have recent run across quite the oddity. There are a bunch of links to the New York Times Website on Hacker News lately (thanks donohoe) and whenever I try and click on them on my windows laptop (chrome) I get stopped by a paywall login thing. However, when I try this with my Ubuntu Netbook, It just opens up articles without bothering to make me sign up. Anybody have an explanation for this odd behavior or notice it also? <comment><USER2> You're welcome.

First, there is no Times paywall... yet. It's due to launch start of next year.

After viewing 8 (?) or so articles on the NYT site you're asked to log-in. That's it. Clearing cookies will reset this. If that doesn't help then it's some other quirk.

Any pay wall will not be OS or browser specific.

Hope that helps. Let me know if clearing cookies does the trick...

<comment><AUTHOR> aha! I had fallen victim to the classic correlation != causation fallacy. Your fix works. It turns out that the bit that mattered was not the OS, but in fact the type of computer (I read less on my net-book and thus it had not hit the 8? page limit)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I have two Ubuntu boxes I'm using today, one Hardy, one Lucid. I'm getting the usual paywall/regwwall pattern:

If it's a same-day article, I can click through. If it's older, I have to login, or do the search-through-google-news-trick, which lets you click- through w/out paywall/regwall.

I'm using Chromium and Iceape.

</comment><comment><USER4> If you have a referer from Google they will serve you pages. Google for the article's headline + inurl:pagewanted=all or fake the referer. You can also use an account from bugmenot.com.</comment>


Uber's politics and the gig economy - <AUTHOR> http://www.groundswell.org/uber-whelmed/ <comment><USER2> Ok, so I've taken the author's advice and asked the drivers how does Uber works for them. To my not so surprise, they all, and by all, I mean every single one of them, seem to love it. Too bad this post doesn't show the other side of the story. Next time, if you're going to start pointing fingers, follow your advice, and look both ways before doing so.

<comment><USER3> you and the author are both just running on anecdotes. I'd love to see a larger data set of satisfaction, working hours, hourly wage, etc.

<comment><USER2> I agree, and would like to see this as well, but until this data is available, we must be aware that even these 'anecdotes' have two sides to them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > And the next time you hop into a ride-share car, talk to your driver – learn > about their experience and find out how the service is working for them.

I've actually done this for nearly every cab I've ever taken (starting long before Uber came out), so I have a point of reference and comparison[0]. It's anecdotal, but it's been interesting to observe the changes as a rider.

In NYC, the demographics of Uber drivers and yellow medallion cab drivers are generally the same, and most Uber drivers previously drove either yellow medallion cabs or private cab services. Uber drivers seemed generally happier about their jobs, making far more money doing basically the same service.

For a while, nothing seemed to change about their experiences, as far as I could tell. Only about a year or so ago did I start to notice a change, and it wasn't the one I'd expect.

Nowadays, _both_ yellow medallion cab drivers and Uber drivers in NYC seem to have the same level of satisfaction with their job, and are generally unhappier with their line of work overall compared to a few years ago. Uber drivers who have driven for more than a year or two say they are making dramatically less money than they used to, and they complain that their costs are higher and revenues more unpredictable (such as Uber changing the requirements for what counted as Uber vs. Uber X, dramatically reducing revenue permanently).

One Uber driver told me that he was an early driver and used to rate passengers fairly, and now just gives everyone a 5-star, because "it doesn't really matter" (ie, he just doesn't care).

On the other hand, Uber drivers used to tell me that they experienced a different sort of clientele. Taking Uber (instead of taking a cab) was a status symbol. One told me that he drove a guy literally a block and a half to a party, just so he could be seen stepping out of a black car. From what I've seen, as the service has grown, the clientele has regressed more to the mean, and is now more similar to the typical cab user (except a bit younger and more tech-savvy).

Uber (and the like) have been revolutionary services from the point of view of the rider, but from the perspective of the driver, it seems that the initial differences in experiences were only temporary.

[0] I started doing this simply because I have family members who used to drive cars in NYC professionally and still tell stories of their days. So I could relate to the riders, and they'd tell me their thoughts very candidly. Only much later did Uber come out and this turn into an opportunity for comparison.

<comment><USER5> I live in SF, not NYC, and am not sure what's up with the Uber rates in NYC. But I'd expect to see a similarly decreasing satisfaction in SF, and, really, this is pretty simple: it's all about the money.

Going from my house to 16th and Mission is about a 15 minute drive, assuming no traffic. The UberX fare calculator quotes me $11 to $14 (assuming no surge). It's probably going to be about 5 minutes to come and pick me up. The fare component is $10 to $13. Driver gets 80% of that. So now we're talking $8 to $10.40 for 20 minutes' work. If you're literally going back-to-back, that's $24 to $31 per hour. But you aren't picking people up back-to-back. And of course gas, vehicle maintenance, blah-blah-blah.

It's not great money. Things get better if you surge, but Uber is trying to increase supply enough that surges are rare and relatively low-multiplier. Also, surges typically happen during high-traffic times when each ride takes longer, and getting to the fare takes longer.

Right now, some of this is masked for a lot of drivers by big bonuses paid at sign-up, and/or limited-time-period wage guarantees. But the longer-term drivers are basically seeing that their basic income per trip has gone down 30-50% from about a year ago. Of course they're less happy!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Gig Economy helps a lot of people, but it's just temporary. The information and brand recognition Uber gets right now will help them to easily transition to self-driving cars, leaving all these people that currently depend on Uber in a really though situation. What do you put on your resume when in 2018 Uber introduces first self-driving cars, and your gig is no more? Right now they are just in a information gathering stage, collecting information about travel routes, times, congestion etc. They need human drivers but not for long.

<comment><USER7> What will you put if you are a truck driver? This is a problem with automation in general, or low-skill jobs, not Uber, sharing, or gig economy.

<comment><USER6> "low-skill jobs" \- more and more jobs will be classified as such. People should spend time learning skills that are not low-skill instead of being a glorified taxi driver

<comment><USER8> You can't just take a 35 year old truck driver and turn him into a skilled knowledge worker.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Isn't Obama-care supposed to solve the benefits problem?

<comment><USER10> No.

Imagine you're a gig worker who makes $2500/mo. $750 goes to your apartment, $500 goes to taxes, $200 goes to your car payment and auto insurance, $200 goes to groceries, $180 goes to your cell phone and utilities, $120 for some credit cards you make minimum payments on, another $120 for gas, maybe $150 for clothes and entertainment.

That leaves you with $280/mo in disposable income. Requiring Obamacare will extract $80-$120/mo for the lowest level of coverage that has high deductibles and is generally useless. You could pay another $100/mo and get the next level up, but your ability to save for anything at all is now completely gone. All you can look forward to is a few hundred dollars on your tax return.

Health care must be free to make sense in this context.

<comment><USER9> At least they have the option of buying it (if they have the money). The prior issue with health care was that, in lieu of working for a large enough company, those who needed it couldn't buy it at any price.

<comment><USER10> They can have the cake, but not eat it, no?

They don't have the _option_ to enroll or not. They have to or they get penalized. The penalty is small; $95 per person, but this is really just another tax on a growing margin of society that can't shoulder more taxes.

The health care industry has already responded to the situation in a more sensible way. Many urgent care clinics have popped up in the last few years. They'll handle most run-of-the-mill health concerns for $100-$200 a visit. Many drugstore chains have started their own prescription clubs that cover a pretty wide range of common medications for very reasonable amounts.

If you're a healthy individual who visits the doctor twice a year and maybe you need a prescription or two, then it makes more sense to pay for your health care on an as-needed basis. You'll save more money. Obamacare didn't really solve the major issues with health insurance. They missed the mark because industry already stepped in to provide a solution. If they wanted to solve the problem vis-a-vis affordability for marginal workers, the solution would have been to make it free.

Just like with gay marriage and openly gay military members, we'll get there eventually, but people are still suffering because of the painfully incremental way legislature works.

<comment><USER11> We wanted National Health Service. We didn't get that. We got mandated insurance. No wonder nobody's happy about it.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


ZoL: ZFS on Linux v0.6.4 released - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/releases/tag/zfs-0.6.4

<comment><USER2> This release is a big deal.

Specifically if you have been waiting to run databases etc on ZFSonLinux things are finally looking good.

Linux AIO support and tons of performance improvements are really making the difference.</comment>


Show HN: OptiMole, image optimisation done right - <AUTHOR> https://wordpress.org/plugins/optimole-wp/ <comment><AUTHOR> Perfect Responsive Size based on viewport

Automatically using the next-gen image format

Automatically load the retina-sized image

Automatically downgrade image quality based on internet speed

Medium-like lazy loading without jQuery

See it in action on [https://codeinwp.com](https://codeinwp.com)</comment>


Unsealed Filing Shows DOJ Misled Appeals Court About NSL Gag Orders - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/unsealed-filing-shows-doj-misled-appeals-court-about-national-security-letter-gag <comment><USER2> Provisions in the law the gag participants from even talking about a violation of their rights are particularly insidious. Sure, they're Kafka-esque, but they also affect the poor, small and marginalized disproportionately.

What is a small business or private citizen to do if they cannot even talk about how they're being wronged against? How will they solicit the support of others? How will they use the free media/press (meant to be a bulwark against injustice) to publicize their cause?

This isn't isolated to just the NSA/FBI/DoJ, or the US alone. Ag-gag laws [1], "super injunctions" [2] and "secret trials" [3] are all examples of this dangerous trend.

[1] - [http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/agricul...](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/06/agriculture- gag-laws-press-freedom)

[2] - [http://www.lawteacher.net/human-rights/essays/super- injuncti...](http://www.lawteacher.net/human-rights/essays/super-injunction- used-to-gag-investigative.php)

[3] - [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27806814](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27806814)

<comment><USER3> There was a particularly apt quote from UK's former homeland security spokesman:

> Secret court hearings will hand a major propaganda victory to terrorists, a > former security adviser to David Cameron has warned. Senior Tory MP Patrick > Mercer said he had 'grave' concerns about the Government's plans, which he > warned would erode centuries of open justice.

> The former Army officer, who served as the party's homeland security > spokesman until 2007, also claimed the measures would succeed in destroying > British values – effectively doing the terrorists' job for them

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126374/Secret- court...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2126374/Secret-courts-hand- victory-terrorists-David-Camerons-ex-security-adviser-warns-PM.html)

It's a shame that American lawmakers did not come to a similar conclusion, that secret courts and rulings erode the values of a free and open society.

<comment><USER4> > secret courts and rulings erode the values of a free and open society.

secret courts allow the appearance of a free and open society whilst actually enacting draconian practices without fear of reprisal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> What happens if someone went on CNN/whatever and just went "so we got this NSL..."

Guantanamo?

I'm a bit surprised someone hasn't simply opened their mouths. I applaud the EFF and everyone fighting this fight. Money is free speech but you can't talk about super-aggressive and highly-invasive (probably unconstitutional) NSLs even to say you got one.

So utterly bizarre and disheartening. Although maybe disenfranchisement is half of the point.

<comment><USER6> I'm still angry at Marissa Mayer for saying that if she could go to prison over something like this. That's just not something I would expect a CEO of such a major corporation to say. FFS, US is not China (yet). She shouldn't put fear into everyone's hearts with that kind of statement, especially since I believe it was mostly baseless.

<comment><USER7> Have you heard of Joe Naccio? [http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25434854/former- qwest-...](http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_25434854/former-qwest-ceo- nacchio-claims-tv-his-jail)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The argument was an odd one to begin with. The government argued that it was not stifling speech because you could say, "I have received between 0 and 249 NSLs, and here's what I think about NSLs..."

You could not, however say, "I have received between 0 and 249 NSLs and here's what I think about NSLs (and I should know because I got one)...

If it's not true that someone can complain about NSLs generically, then there is an odd position where one can comment on facts or opinions about NSLs precisely until one actually has experience to support facts or opinions about NSLs.

<comment><USER9> Correct, how can we confident the gag orders don't require AmaGooSoft to pretend they received fewer NSLs than they did?

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've been wondering this for a while now, can I set up a Twitter account that automatically tweets ever day "MatteoTom has never received a NSL/a gag order", and if I ever do receive one, stop sending the tweets?

Can the FBI/DOJ/whoever require me (or Twitter) to continue to send out the tweets? Or is it somehow illegal for me to set up such an account in the first place?

<comment> java-man You don't get it. THEY are unconstrained by law.

<comment><USER10> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The idea is that I would confirm that (NSLs received >= 1) by not saying that (NSLs received == 0).

<comment> java-man The programmer's logic does not apply here. When you lie, you go to jail or worse. When they lie, they get promoted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> At this point why doesn't _everyone_ assume DoJ/law enforcement is _misleading_ in Court? That should be the default, and their statements should _always_ be thoroughly checked.

</comment><comment><USER11> The government has nothing to lose. They can print money and write new loopholes into laws. There need to be class action lawsuits against every corporation complicit in crimes against the public. If I can get paid for Red Bull promising me wings, I can certainly sue Google for using a sealed envelope as the logo for Gmail.

<comment><USER12> Then don't ever use Google new "Inbox" because they choose an open envelope as the logo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Everywhere it says 'quality' I think it's supposed to say 'quantity'. This was quite confusing, since the world 'quality' appears throughout (and a total of 4 times) but the word 'quantity' appears only once at the 2nd to last quote, and even then it's contradictory;

      There's nothing that says that they can't comment, they're
      allowed to make specific comments about _quantity_, there's
      absolutely no ban on them commenting on the _quality_ of those
      they've received.

Or is it actually that the argument was over commenting on the "quality" of the NSL, and if so, what does that even mean?

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Eric Holder's DoJ is the worst we'll see in our lifetime.

<comment><USER15> Alberto Gonzalez and John Ashcroft give stiff competition there. Google for "alberto gonzales jane harman". I'm still puzzled about why that story didn't get any traction.

Anyway, I think you're optimistic.

</comment></comment><comment> java-man Still, more truthful than the Honorable Director Clapper...</comment>


Iris Agent: A extensible conversational agent for data science tasks - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Ejhfast/iris-agent <comment><AUTHOR> Blog post up at [https://hackernoon.com/a-conversational-agent-for-data- scien...](https://hackernoon.com/a-conversational-agent-for-data- science-4ae300cdc220)</comment>


Ask HN: Intern staying on with company, is Salary Negotiation Appropriate? - <AUTHOR>

I've been extremely lucky to secure a paid summer internship this summer fresh out of my freshman year of college in a very exciting technical field.
I've been doing penetration testing and tool development for a startup information security company. They didn't have any internships listed only higher-level job postings. Encouraged by a mentor, I sent over my resume anyway with a cover letter indicating that I was seeking an internship. Needless to say, I got the internship. It's three months later, I have been given responsibilities on an equal footing as some of my much senior coworkers.
They initially offered me a job at the end of the summer asking if I wanted to "take a semester off", but I knew if I left college now i'd likely never go back. Instead they are offering me a telecommuting position.
I've been earning a bit above minimum wage, and this summer has been an awesome experience I wouldn't trade for anything, but how much is reasonable compensation for someone with a LOT to learn (c'mon I'm a rising sophomore), yet still creating immense value for a company? I've had the privilege of leading security audits for Fortune 500 companies who were later very satisfied with my analysis --- this was all closely supervised work and independently reviewed. My coworkers treat me as a peer, and my supervisor is very pleased with the quality of my work.
How much is "reasonable compensation" for a part-time telecommuting college student who's staying on after interning? <comment><USER2> Use this as a negotiation exercise.

If you do, first things first. Know your best alternative to a negotiated agreement (BATNA). Try to factor in the opportunity cost, i.e. what else you can be doing with your time if you do not take the job.

With that in hand, accept any offer higher than the BATNA. Reject any offers below the BATNA. Either way you are best off.

Of course it is easier said than done ...

(see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement))

</comment><comment><USER3> if you feel like you deserve a raise, ask for one. however, understand that many companies have a policy set in stone for interns. you might not be able to get anything more within the employment structure you're currently in.

however, if you like this job, you could use this situation as leverage for a much higher starting salary if you want to continue working with them after graduation.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a relatively young bootstrapped startup which is now becoming rapidly profitable. Still only at 9 employees, they've never had an intern before.

<comment><USER3> cool. ask them. especially if you feel like your work is valuable to the company.

they won't fire you for asking.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I would say get paid per experience and degree. You have .25 of a degree and approx 3 months relevant experience. Since relevant, in their company experience is worth more than general education. I would say somewhere around 30-40% of what you would expect to be paid after graduation. So do your research and find out what entry level salary for that field is perhaps from your co-workers.</comment>


IPhone 4 films final Discovery launch from 30,000 feet up.  - <AUTHOR> http://thebln.com/2011/02/iphone-4-video-of-discovery-launching-on-sts-133-from-commercial-plane/

<comment><USER2> A rocket carrying human beings going to space to live for a few days in zero gravity, viewed from an airplane carrying hundreds of humans 30,000 feet in the air, filmed on a camera that fits into your pocket.

Do we need any more proof that human beings are incredible?

<comment><USER3> And yet despite all this amazing intellectual capability we seem somehow unable to balance a government budget, year after year after year. Hmmmmmm....

<comment><USER4> Everything is amazing and nobody's happy.

<comment><USER3> haha, nice! yes the great Louis C.K. routine. "You're sitting in chair. But it's thousands of feet in the air and hurtling along at hundreds of miles an hour but you're perfectly safe. Yet we complain about the taste of the coffee not being just right." to summarize.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> How is it relevant in any way that this was filmed with an iPhone?

<comment><USER6> The specific device is irrelevant and so is your question.

The headline "Smartphone Films Final Discovery Launch From 30,000 Feet Up" would be just as good but complaining about the additional (albeit irrelevant) information in the real headline seems just strange.

The information in the headline that this was taken by a smartphone is certainly valuable – you immediately know that this is not about professional video footage for example from a NASA plane but amateur footage taken from a commercial airliner which is a lot cooler.

Does it really annoy you and all the people who upvoted you so much that the writer of the headline (not even the guy who took and published the video) went that small extra step and mentioned the specific model of the device used to capture the video and not just the general category? Why exactly?

<comment><USER7> You don't seem to understand people that suffer from gadget inadequacy. They look at their own and other people's choices in purchasing consumer electronics as a reflection of self worth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I would like to point out that if it had been taken with a HTC Desire HD it would have been even better!

<comment><USER8> I would like to point out that if it had been taken with a Canon 5Dmk2 it would have been even better!

And so on, and so on, and on...

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's pretty cool that this guy has an autonomous iPhone that films stuff for him.

</comment><comment><USER10> Wow, lucky guy! Did the plane follow it for a bit? I'm thinking about the remark on the speaker system at 1:28.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think it travelled about 59 miles in 2 minutes so they would have had a job!

<comment><USER10> Hm, yeah I was referring to horizontally getting closer to the action of the launch.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think they have a 40 mile no fly zone around the launch site.

Good picture of a launch being guarded by an F-15... <http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123205663>

<comment><USER10> That definitely makes sense, but on the other hand it doesn't answer the question if they took a detour. Nice picture by the way, thanks.

<comment><AUTHOR> There is something about those pictures that is making me want to make an airfix model - just for the benefit of my son of course...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> blogspam

<comment><USER12> indeed, link to the original video:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE_USPTmYXM>

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I am ashamed to admit that I have too much time on my hands today. The same video, with an alternate soundtrack: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZrkqKo8NQ>

<comment><USER14> Nice. Somehow I expected "The Final Countdown" to be playing.

 _What does this mean?_

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Ya I was watching the launch on tv, then stepped outside and you could see it from the other side of Florida, I've seen a launch up in close once, to bad I was really really sick to enjoy it.

<comment><USER16> Yeah, I've seen two launches from Tampa (including the last night launch), and you can see things pretty well. This video blows it away though, I would have loved to be on that plane.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I don't understand what led the author to believe that this was filmed using an iPhone 4; nor why that has anything to do with the rest of the video.</comment>


Mapzen Search: An open source geocoding api built on open data - <AUTHOR> https://mapzen.com/projects/search <comment><USER2> MapZen Search (aka Pelias) is amazing. We're using it to auto-name routes on gaiagps.com, and we're rolling out new search features and auto-naming to the app too.

MapZen makes a lot of great stuff actually. We also use the Mapzen Valhalla routing engine ([https://github.com/valhalla](https://github.com/valhalla)) to do trail routing: [http://blog.gaiagps.com/plot-a-precise-trail-with-the- gaia-g...](http://blog.gaiagps.com/plot-a-precise-trail-with-the-gaia-gps- trail-finder/).

OpenStreetMap.org recently added Valhalla too - interesting to see competition between MapBox/OSRM and MapZen/Valhalla. The best mapping tech is being developed openly now, even competing open projects - that's a fount of innovation.

</comment><comment><USER3> Worth mentioning that this is built on Pelias[0] which is an exceptional piece of software.

[0] - [https://github.com/pelias/pelias](https://github.com/pelias/pelias)

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm confused. The "demo" is just a screenshot? Seems promising but I would like to try it.

<comment><USER5> There is a Pelias leaflet plugin which serves as a good demo: [http://pelias.github.io/leaflet- geocoder/#12/40.7258/-73.980...](http://pelias.github.io/leaflet- geocoder/#12/40.7258/-73.9806)

Working on a better one that highlights all the levers in the API :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This looks really good! We've been looking for something to run ourselves that can replace Google.

However, I found a few flaws after a couple of minutes of testing.

1\. Neither search nor autocomplete appears to support filtering by fields other than country? We have an app that needs to filter autocompletions by state. A focus point might be sufficient if the autocompleter aggressively sorts results based on distance, but I have yet to meet one that does this (or allows a tuning of the distance function). A rectangular bounding box filter doesn't cut it. I guess I'll have to check out the code and see if this can be added/improved.

2\. The API only returns points, with no boundary information, for street addresses. We have an app that uses geocoding to match street addresses to points. But if your address is a bit imprecise and matches an _entire stretch of highway_ (it happens a lot!), that's obviously not a valid match — something like "Highway 66" is just wrong. Google will wisely return a bounds object that you can compute the area for and determine if it's small enough that it's likely a precise enough location (we use 10m2 as the maximum). Unlike Google, Mapzen doesn't even tell you that your match is a "route" — everything is an individual street address. Not sure how trivial this would be to implement, as boundaries would need support from datasets; OSM has the required data, OpenAddresses might not.

3\. Street address matching seems a bit patchy. I tried my Brooklyn street address, and it didn't find it. The building was constructed last year, though, so maybe it's old data. Can someone from Mapzen comment?

<comment><USER7> Hi! I work on the Mapzen Search team. Glad to hear you like most of what you've seen so far. Your feedback is super useful and I think at least some of it we'll be able to address relatively soon.

1.) We do have a focus point option for autocomplete, with either a soft (will sometimes show you results far away if we think they're really relevant) or a hard (only stuff nearby) radius that can be set. Look at the boundary.circle and focus.point parameters in our /v1/search endpoint docs ([https://github.com/pelias/pelias- doc/blob/master/search.md](https://github.com/pelias/pelias- doc/blob/master/search.md)). As you probably realized tuning this for general use is actually quite difficult, but if you're running pelias yourself there's nothing stopping you from tuning to your particular use case. But if you're running your own instance you can also just add a filter by state, since we already have a state field in all our documents.

2.) That's right, even for our datasets that have polygon data (only OSM and Quattroshapes), we just take the center point. This is something we want to add in the future, but it may take a few months at least, since we don't currently have much infrastructure for handling polygon data. We also have another awesome team at Mapzen that is working on a gazetteer project called Who's On First([http://whosonfirst.mapzen.com](http://whosonfirst.mapzen.com)) that should really help by offering concordance between datasets.

3.) This one's interesting, we should be able to fix it right away because NYC data is generally quite good. Can you check if your building is in OpenStreetMap([http://openstreetmap.org](http://openstreetmap.org)) or OpenAddresses ([http://openaddresses.io](http://openaddresses.io) has a download for the USA, then find the file for NYC)?

<comment><USER6> Thanks for replying!

(1) Would it be easy to extend to filter by polygon? We want focus + boundary. We never want results that aren't within the boundary, but this is impossible with other geocoders because they will sort arbitrarily even if you specify a focus. For example, if you only want Montana, typing "San Francisco" should not return the city of SF.

(2) Is there a possible workaround that's easier to implement? For example, if we can ignore routes (= long roads where no numbered addresses were matched) that's an acceptable compromise until you support returning bounds.

(3) OSM finds it. The map doesn't have a polygon for it, so it's likely captured through interpolation. It matches as "house". I can send you the address privately if you want. OpenAddresses doesn't have it.

<comment><USER7> 1.) Filtering by polygon would be difficult at the moment, although we are actually talking about creating a separate point-in-polygon service (no promises as to when yet :P), since we use it during the process of importing all our data, but the code isn't really generalized (it's at [https://github.com/pelias/admin-lookup/](https://github.com/pelias/admin- lookup/) if you did want to take a look). However, adding filtering by state is pretty easy. It works the same way as our country lookup: at import time we do point-in-polygon lookup for countries, states, neighborhoods, etc for everything, and then record that as text fields with a consistent name in the actual documents we put in Elasticsearch. Then you can just query the text field and since the names of countries (we use ISO-3166-1 alpha2/3 codes) and states are pretty well defined, it works quite well.

2.) Not likely for full polygon data, although we are thinking about doing something with TIGER data which has street address ranges for the US. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish but you're welcome to drop by our gitter room ([https://gitter.im/pelias/api](https://gitter.im/pelias/api)) and perhaps we can figure something out.

3.) It's probably poorly tagged data in OSM then, but again, we can chat about it on gitter more if you'd like. We re-import data once a week, so if you wanted to make changes to OSM, they should start showing up by Monday.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've signed up for a api key, but I can't work out how to use it. I can't find any documentation.

I've tried using the curl example provided in [https://github.com/pelias/pelias](https://github.com/pelias/pelias) and appending api_key=$apikey to it but I just get an error back saying that this is not a valid key.

Has anyone found any documentation for how to use this API?

<comment><USER8> Just found the documentation here: [https://github.com/pelias/pelias- doc](https://github.com/pelias/pelias-doc)

<comment><AUTHOR> My bad, we moved the main domain over to search.mapzen.com from pelias.mapzen.com and hadn't updated the documentation for the project background repository!

We're super flattered over all the attention and we're listening for any feedback.</comment></comment></comment>


Amazon Itself Runs on Oracle DB: Larry Ellison [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrzMYL901AQ <comment><AUTHOR> "Oracle DB is at least 10 years ahead of anything else"

Is this just sales talk or does it hold any technical truth?</comment>