Ask HN: Apart from programming, how have you used algebra in the real world? - <AUTHOR> My son's struggling a bit with algebra and asked the age-old question - "when will I use this?" He wasn't being sulky, just genuinely confused.<p>My instinct was to say programming but after that I was stuck. When he was learning percentages I used shopping offers and discounts as a concrete example of that being useful. What's a similar example for algebra? <comment><USER2> That's a difficult question to answer, like the question, "when will I use the ability to understand big words, read sophisticated prose, or follow complex logical arguments?" The answer depends on what kind of life you lead--a challenging one or a simple one.

I think ivan_ah has it right. You can't seriously work with numbers--any numbers--without algebra. Arithmetic isn't enough. One needs to know how to rearrange equations in order to validate or explore, e.g., a simple statistical claim that a politician or marketer makes. Or to repurpose an equation for another task. Any professional in any field should find themselves doing that on a regular basis, otherwise they're just echoing whatever they're told and not adding much value.

OTOH, you can get really far in this world by just echoing and passing on whatever you're told. So algebra isn't needed any more than taking an interest in social studies is needed to be able to vote or even become President. While algebra and social studies are prerequisites for being a good citizen, being a good citizen isn't a prerequisite for much of anything, though I'd like to think it still makes success in life more likely.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very good point. That sounds similar to when I try to explain why it's good to try to exceed expectations. It's hard to give a convincing reason because the benefit is often indirect or intangible.

I'll look out for statistics on TV and see if I can incorporate the algebra- as-a-foundation concept.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think of algebra as a meta-math skill since it allows you to manipulate, simplify, or otherwise make use of structure in mathematical expressions.

The most important rule is the "do the same operation on both sides of the equation"-rule, but there are plenty of other "math verbs" that are useful: expand, factor, simplify, collect, etc. Interestingly, any expression in the computer algebra system SymPy has these methods:

[http://live.sympy.org/?evaluate=(x%2By)**2%0A%23--%0A((x%2By...](http://live.sympy.org/?evaluate=\(x%2By\)**2%0A%23--%0A\(\(x%2By\)**2)).expand()%0A%23--%0A

<comment><AUTHOR> Math verbs - that sounds like something that I could go through and clarify with him. Thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If he's around 8-9-10 years old don't lie to him or make up phony reasons. He'll see right through it and lose all respect for you. Like the generations raised in the era of "everyone gets a sports trophy" BS. Now we have multiple generations of low self-esteem, bitter cynics.

Tell him the truth, you use it as a programmer but you don't know what he'll want to be when he grows up so he may never use it. Tell him the truth, that algebra is the base[1] of more advanced math like geometry or calculus and used by engineers and scientist and maybe someday he'll want to be an engineer or scientist. Tell him the truth that as hard as it seems now, if he needs it later (but doesn't know it) to become what he wants to be it will cripple his chances and limit his choices. Tell him the truth, you are the dad and in your judgment he should know algebra even if he doesn't use it because it is difficult but will make him a better thinker which has value in ANY endeavor he may choose.

[1] As an ex-teacher, it has been my experience that when students struggle in math at level Y they didn't really learn level X, the preceding level, in the previous semester or year. (Alternatively, they are just dumb). At a certain age kids learn that they can just fake it and learn the mechanics of mathematical manipulation of the symbols with virtually no understanding of the underlying concepts or relationships. This is the end of their mathematical training. After that it is training parrots or monkeys. So my advice is to check and review his earlier work. He might have faked understanding it or just plain forgotten it.

<comment><AUTHOR> He's a bit older than that but your comment about the honesty still applies.

And interesting that you bring up the previous level of study. We made him do a lot of Khan Academy when he was a bit younger and he seemed to make good progress, but maybe he just got used to the format and worked out how he was expected to respond. I don't want to pressure him beyond his limits but that sounds like something we can look into. Thank you for the insights.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I am the main developer of the MathPiper computer algebra system. When students ask "when will I use algebra?" it is a symptom of a deeper problem, which is what they are being taught is not algebra. Almost no math teachers know how the "game" of algebra actually works, and therefore they are incapable of teaching others how to play it. What are they teaching that is being called algebra? That's a good question. What would the game be called that operated exactly like chess, except the rules for how the pieces are moved were never written down and never taught explicitly? Lets call it c_es_. One critical ability that is needed to be good at c_es_ that is not needed to be good at chess is figuring out how the pieces are moved by only observing how other people move them.

Most people don't like playing games they can't win because they have not been taught how to play. Most people would not like playing c_es_ for this reason, so they would only play it if they were forced to. They would also start asking questions like "why am I being forced to play this illogical game?". The way to help your son is not by providing him with reasons for why he is being forced to play a game he has not been properly taught how to play. The way to help him is to simply teach him how algebra actually works. I can show you how to do this (my contact information is in my profile).

</comment><comment><USER6> Yes. I've used it in graphic design when calculating ratios especially. I've used it when converting time tables for payroll at a previous job. I've used it in carpentry. That gets into geometry, but it's still algebra.

<comment><USER7> I have difficulties to separate algebra from the rest of the math -- it is just one important data representation and a toolbox, when you work some math you refer to this toolbox repeatedly and almost involuntarily.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> you mean active use or passive use? passively you use it every second of your life of course.

actively you use it when navigating with a map&compass (yes, i am that old)

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, of course - scales on maps! Thank you.</comment></comment>


Tampa man accused of scamming Apple out of $309,768 - <AUTHOR> http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/tampa-man-accused-of-scamming-apple-out-of-309768/2189776

<comment><USER2> TL:DR Man is denied sale with his Debit Card. Man pretends to call the bank and gives a fake over-ride code. It works and he does it 42 times.

This is a hysterical life hack of an ancient system. That all a clerk has to do is hit manual override after receiving a specific number of digits from a customer or bank. When we live in a world of the internet this is the solution?</comment>


Organizing programs without classes (1991) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://cs.au.dk/~hosc/local/LaSC-4-3-pp223-242.pdf <comment><USER2> OR: Organizing programs in OOP styles in which class-like manifestations are an emergent phenomenon, while denying the applicability of the word "class" to anything we see.

</comment><comment><USER3> >Abstract.

>All organizational functions carried out by classes can be accomplished in a simple and natural way by object inheritance in classless languages, ...

Like javascript prototypes? Ah, yes.

> ... with no need for special mechanisms.

Is object the type then or a single class?

> A single model—dividing types into prototypes and traits—supports sharing of > behavior and extending or replacing representations. A natural extension, > dynamic object inheritance, can model behavioral modes. Object inheritance > can also be used to provide structured name spaces for well-known objects.

>Classless languages can even express "class-based" encapsulation. These stylized uses of object inheritance become instantly recognizable idioms, and extend the repertory of organizing principles to cover a wider range of programs

<comment><USER4> It's easy to poke fun at this with 25 years of hindsight. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> A version of this in NewtonScript [http://waltersmith.us/newton/Class- based%20NewtonScript%20Pr...](http://waltersmith.us/newton/Class- based%20NewtonScript%20Programming.pdf)

Probably still one of my favorite languages and the one that taught me prototype-based inheritance was pretty nice.

</comment><comment><USER6> closures ?

<comment><USER7> I am pretty sure there was a Perl book that referred to closures as inside out objects.

<comment><USER8> That would be a little odd, considering closures are about as objecty as you can get.

[https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/wcook/papers/OOPvsADT/CookOO...](https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/wcook/papers/OOPvsADT/CookOOPvsADT90.pdf)

<comment><USER9> _The venerable master Qc Na was walking with his student, Anton. Hoping to prompt the master into a discussion, Anton said "Master, I have heard that objects are a very good thing - is this true?" Qc Na looked pityingly at his student and replied, "Foolish pupil - objects are merely a poor man's closures."

Chastised, Anton took his leave from his master and returned to his cell, intent on studying closures. He carefully read the entire "Lambda: The Ultimate..." series of papers and its cousins, and implemented a small Scheme interpreter with a closure-based object system. He learned much, and looked forward to informing his master of his progress.

On his next walk with Qc Na, Anton attempted to impress his master by saying "Master, I have diligently studied the matter, and now understand that objects are truly a poor man's closures." Qc Na responded by hitting Anton with his stick, saying "When will you learn? Closures are a poor man's object." At that moment, Anton became enlightened._

[http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ClosuresAndObjectsAreEquivalent](http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ClosuresAndObjectsAreEquivalent)

Oh, and of course: COLA (Combined Object Lambda Architecture): [http://lambda- the-ultimate.org/node/2483](http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2483)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why Do Rubyists Test So Completely? - <AUTHOR> http://robots.thoughtbot.com/post/162764036/why-do-rubyists-test-so-completely

<comment><USER2> Why? It's a very runtime-oriented environment. In fact, the syntactic meaning of fairly common examples of Ruby code can't be determined until runtime.

This is one thing that the Rubyists get right that the Smalltalk community as a whole never manged to get around to. (Though, to be fair, the Smalltalk community is largely responsible for the origin of the XUnit suites and the idea of fanatic unit testing.)

If there was a Ruby-like language that ran an order of magnitude faster, and had optional type annotations, would it become popular?

I wish someone would make optional typing for Lua and write something like Rails for it.

<comment><USER3> > I wish someone would make optional typing for Lua...

I've wondered about this, as well. Adding it would probably greatly increase the size of the language/compiler, though (which goes against its major strength of being easily embeddable), and its not clear to me how it would fit with the underlying VM's design[1]. Just having a runtime-checked type system is quite a bit simpler, until programs get to a certain size.

I like inferred statically typed languages, but I think it may work better to leave Lua as-is, and instead focus on making an equally clean-but-pragmatic ML-styled language. H-M type inference, Haskell-style typeclasses, and pattern matching in the core language, but with the same tastefully minimalistic design that Lua has. Lua is (IMHO) an _excellent_ scripting language, but it's still stateful/imperative by default. While OCaml and SML aren't purely functional, their design encourages going that way more than Lua's does, and it changes the semantics of the language considerably. (FWIW, I'm studying Prolog, unification, type systems, etc., and would love to work on such after I get a few more immediate projects finished...)

[1]: [http://luaforge.net/docman/view.php/83/98/ANoFrillsIntroToLu...](http://luaforge.net/docman/view.php/83/98/ANoFrillsIntroToLua51VMInstructions.pdf)

<comment><USER2> I'm thinking of doing something with adding optional typing to Smalltalk by just adding it to the compiler. Maybe add H-M type inference as well.

One could do the same for Lua.

Actually, I'm thinking of implementing a Smalltalk VM on top of LuaJIT and Javascript by JIT to the host language's source code.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The discussion in the comments is extremely interesting, with a few ruby/rails/merb heavyweights pitching in and having a very insightful debate into the topic.

Be sure to read the comments on the post.

</comment><comment><USER5> Have there been any kind of survey carried on testing "habits" in the Ruby or any other language communities in recent times?

I'm only aware of this small survey carried out by Perl community last year: <http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=701817>

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a Ruby development survey, you can find in test related charts too.

[http://devver.net/blog/2008/06/the-results-of-our-ruby- devel...](http://devver.net/blog/2008/06/the-results-of-our-ruby-development- survey/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I cannot imagine that the average perl module on CPAN is less tested than that of ruby.</comment>


UK Trident Nuclear Missile Programme Whistleblower - <AUTHOR> https://wikileaks.org/trident-safety/

<comment><USER2> Nobody has any comments?

Is this on the level? If so, this guy just "Snowdened" himself.

The article describes appalling lack of security (and more) in Britain's Trident nuclear submarine program.

He ends with:

       Order through the fear of nuclear annihilation
       can no longer be maintained. Every major nation
       on the planet has been infiltrated by terrorists
       that are preparing to attack us from within.
       Our Nuclear weapon systems are the prime target
       and we are wide open to attack. We must unite
       globally in order to eliminate he biggest threat
       the world has ever seen.

<comment><AUTHOR> It does amaze me how little attention this got vs. e.g. 'About the supposed factoring of a 4096 bit RSA key' esp. given another related article did well 'UK government quietly rewrites hacking laws to give GCHQ immunity', but there we go.

The veracity _is_ questionable, but if true it's of huge importance and very frightening. It sounds like the typical incompetencies of a poorly managed company, but applied to one of the most sophisticated nuclear delivery systems in existence. I really hope this gets looked into, I for one am going to write a letter to my MP to ask them to investigate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> There are several linguistic mistakes in the text. What do you think about it?

<comment><USER4> In fairness, the guy is a sailor, not a writer. I'm sure I would make more than several mistakes if you put me in charge of a nuclear submarine.

But yes, the effort to dismantle the Cold War nuclear arsenals should never have been allowed to fizzle out. It should be restarted now. Retaining those things today is crazy, particularly since, as OP observes, they are of no use against today's enemies.</comment></comment>


Oracle: the new "axis of evil" against Free software - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.adobe.com/open/2010/08/oracle-closed-minds-and-open-source.html

<comment><USER2> It's the weirdest experience to see someone aggressively defend free software on the adobe.com website with Oracle as the target.

<comment><USER3> yeah really. i get the idea that mr mcallister isn't a regular user of flex/ flash builder.

<comment><USER4> Surprisingly, the flex SDK is open source: <http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/flexsdk/>

And there is at least one open source IDE that uses it: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FlashDevelop>

Also, the main part of the Flash Player is open source: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamarin_%28JavaScript_engine%29>

And if I understand it correctly, the only reason it's not is due to licensing and patent stuff that is out of the control of Adobe.

<comment><USER3> the "sdk" is open source, but flex builder isn't (and they managed to break stuff that worked fine in eclipse). and have fun trying to get the flex builder plugin to work on linux, or even get the sdk working completely on linux.

<comment><USER5> I tried to do some flex development on linux two years ago from the command- line & I finally gave up & switched to the IDE. I hate languages where serious development is only possible from within a specific IDE. The kind of stuff I was trying to do is now fairly easy with Canvas, so good riddance to Flex!

<comment><USER6> You can also try OpenLazslo

<comment><USER5> We actually looked into that but LZX seemed like too much of a hassle. Bad call?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For mega-corporations, "open" is just a marketing buzzword to beat their opponents with, so it isn't surprising that Adobe writes about "closed minds and open source".

For Google, open source is a neat technique to assert Android moral superiority over iOS (even though Google's core assets - search, ads - aren't open-source, and Android apps such as Google maps aren't open-source)

For Sun, it was a good stick to hit Microsoft with. Making software free and open-source was their way of competing with Microsoft and making money from their hardware business.

Adobe is now clearly in the anti-Apple/iPhone camp and needs to ingratiate itself with Android/Google. It looks like they're the latest company to discover the magic of the "open" buzzword. Sadly for them, I don't think it will be much effective

<comment><USER8> > _even though Google's core assets - search, ads - aren't open-source_

Thats probably another example of cargo cult openness. I can't see how anyone is better served by opening google's client-server stuff.

<comment><USER9> It'd be nice if access were a little more open a least, on terms similar to the Bing Search API, though I can see why they don't do that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Indeed. Adobe had showed the way with the Macromedia's acquisition: swallow your only other competitor and keep everything close.

In fact one can see _all_ the open source Adobe projects: <http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/site/Projects>

How many of these were projects that they had and were subsequently open sourced? I count Tamarin, and possibly a few more which I hadn't heard of.

Why not open source Acrobat? Or Photoshop? Or Flash?

Edit: forgot to add that Oracle may have killed the OpenSolaris's corporate backing, but it seems intentioned to support quite a lot of Sun's open source projects. Plus isn't BTRFS coming from Oracle too?

<comment><USER11> Open sourcing their _platforms_ like Acrobat and Flash would kind of make sense, but I have a hard time seeing any upside to opening up Photoshop. It's not like they can sell service and support for it, as there's an entire industry around training and books and advice. Maybe they could sell premium plug-ins, but there's already an industry around that, too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Remarkably asinine coming from Adobe.

In any case, it would behoove those in the FOSS communities to not adopt incendiary language like this (except, perhaps, if you happen to be the target of litigation ;-). It instantly tarnishes any real argument/position, and accomplishes nothing.

Not that people won't jump up and down about Oracle childishly -- after years of people spelling 'Microsoft' with a dollar sign, one's expectations take a hit.

</comment><comment><USER13> This reaction is uncalled for (especially the addition of the 'Axis of Evil' in this submission). I believe in open source as much as the next guy, but just a few weeks ago there was a thread on this board in which the vast majority of people considered OpenSolaris (with the exception of say, ZFS) had become a sub-par operating system, that they wouldn't want to use. There were a few users, yes, but I think it's glaringly obvious that the death of that project started long before the Oracle aquisition. I'm close friends with several former Sun employees, all of whom had been extremely unhappy in their positions with Sun for a few years. Sun was on the verge of complete financial failure.

Yes, Oracle may be being 'evil', but they know how to run a business and make a livelihood for their employees. How many of the people that are complaining actually paid for the real worth of all the Sun products they used? If people rely on Sun so much for their own businesses, how can they expect someone else to maintain it for them at a financial loss? These people have no right to complain about what Oracle is now doing to protect it's investment. Yes, you can make a living from open source. Was Sun doing a good job of that when Oracle got them? Absolutely not.

edit: I completely agree that all this was unexpected and is unpleasant, I just don't think it's fair to attack and blame Oracle.

<comment><USER2> If there is an anti-free-software Axis of Evil I would expect Adobe to be on either end of that axis or smack in the middle. I presume this is working up to them open sourcing all their code, including photoshop.

<comment><USER14> It is far easier to pander to the crowd than to act yourself :)

<comment><USER6> They haven't sued projects like Gimp yet, or have they?

<comment><USER13> That's a good point - this is a prime example of the differences between the GPL and more permissive FOSS licenses.

<comment><USER2> Actually it isn't. The Gimp is not exactly a fork of photoshop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "does anyone high scale actually use oracle"

Oracle is so much more that its database products. Oracle Hyperion being a good example - it's the market leading financial consolidation/reporting system. It is _very_ popular in large public companies.

<comment><USER16> I have a friend that is an Oracle DB Architect. One day he tells me he's left the bank and is working for some Swedish multinational. Tells me the name and I go "hmm, never heard of them". Website is a simple one page affair with contact information (in 50 countries) and nothing else.

I tell another friend about this company, he's a family investment planner (the guy that rich people give money to when they are too rich to work). He tells me in the hierarchy of multinationals, this one is at or near the top. You never hear about them because 99% of everything you buy is financed through them.

And that is Oracle's main clients. Really large companies with incredibly deep pockets and, most likely, a simple webpage that doesn't describe what they really do.

Think of it, most people never heard of AIG, until the government had to loan them $182 billion.

<comment><USER17> So what is this mysterious all-encompassing company then?

<comment><USER15> I would guess someone like this: <http://www.sek.se/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This makes me think Adobe is starting to sweat a little about their reliance on Java. It underlies a good portion of their tools.

<comment><USER19> Which tools?

<comment><USER20> Lots of high-level functionality in their Creative Suite stuff is done in JavaScript. Photoshop and Illustrator in particular, also quite a lot of After Effects addons. Then there's a tool called ExtendScript which is a lightly customized JS implementation/toolchain for messaging and passing projects between their applications. That's the only coding I ever do nowadays, actually.

My guess is they're worried about getting hit with a legal brick too, since it would really mess up their roadmap. Maybe they'll develop a sudden enthusiasm for Python :-)

<comment><USER21> Java is not JavaScript. the two are entirely unrelated aside from the name.

<comment><USER20> Yes, my error. But the reason I mentioned JavaScript is that Oracle happens to own the trademark on it: <http://www.trademarkia.com/javascript-75026640.html>

As far as I know, Extendscript does not use any Sun IP (it was originally written by a Michael Daumling), but there are numerous Sun patents specifically related to JavaScript interpreters, accessing APIs via JavaScript, and so forth, mostly from 2000-2003. JavaScript as a language came from Netscape, but it's hard to say exactly where their IP ends and Sun/Oracle IP begins.

So there is a little more to my remark than just the verbal similarity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> In a way I'm glad they dropped OpenSolaris. If they didn't, then OpenSolaris would still be a project with Oracle's deep claw in it. That claw carries infectious diseases. I look forward to the new effort; Illumos.org

I won't lie, I am in fact very much excited about it!

</comment><comment><USER23> [Tinfoil hat on]

      * Oracle is suing enemies of best buddy Apple (Google/Android/Java)
      * Adobe is another sworn enemy of Apple
      * Adobe has products in Java EE (ColdFusion)

[/]

<comment><USER24> I did not realize, nor have I ever heard, that Oracle is best buddy with Apple? Why would that be so? I am not being sarcastic, just trying to broaden my knowledge on the subject.

<comment><USER25> Larry Ellison is friends with Steve Jobs and even threatened to buy Apple for Steve Jobs. Check news from the 1996-1997 era about Apple's buying of NeXT. I really don't think that is in play here.

Although, I really believe Adobe can shut it until they point to an open source Flash client that can be used with Hulu.

<comment><USER26> If I recall correctly, the iMac started out as ellison's idea.

<comment><USER25> Not the actual released iMac, but the rumor was that its form was from a project at Apple started as a network computer (Ellison's thing at the time).

[http://www.macobserver.com/columns/1temporalloop/2007/05/15....](http://www.macobserver.com/columns/1temporalloop/2007/05/15.1.shtml)

<comment><USER26> Notice I said "started out". :-)

Plus, what do you think the i stood for? And do you know of any other companies that put a superfluous i for internet in product names (or at least did at the time)?

<comment><USER25> Sorry, I was just adding the link /info and didn't word it particularly well. (I did upvote you original from the 0 - don't know why someone would downvote it).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> > No company is perfect. But these recent moves seem to indicate that the axis > of evil has shifted south about 850 miles or so.

I looked on a map and 850 miles north of Redwood Shores leads me to believe he is a) admitting Adobe (Seattle) was the previous axis of evil or b) bestowing the title upon Canada.

Well, that's ten minutes of my life I'll never get back.

<comment><USER28> It's also possible they were referring to Microsoft, which also is about 850 miles north of Redwood Shores.

Edit: After looking at the quote in context, this is supported by a comment three paragraphs earlier, where the author says, "Oracle has managed to move into the role formerly played by Microsoft."

<comment><USER27> Good call :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Ever since the purchase of Sun, this was always assumed to happen - they are too cutthroat to leave those projects alone.

</comment><comment><USER30> Someone at Adobe is attacking Oracle? Pretty hilarious ...

</comment><comment><USER31> I think ratifying all _software_ as service will fix patent terrorism.</comment>


YouTube: We're Bigger Than You Thought - <AUTHOR> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/09/youtube-were-bigger-than-you-thought/?ref=technology <comment><USER2> ...putting it's global audience at around 20 billion.

hahaha

<comment><USER3> "Update | 12:00 p.m. Changed language to clarify that some figures referred to billions of views, not billions of people."

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I didn't realise Chad Hurley (YouTube CEO) still worked for Google. Also amazing (from Wikipedia) is how much stock he managed to keep onto (after acquisition) when the early expenses were presumably so high.

<comment><USER5> It's possible he has needed to stay for his stock to vest, right?

<comment><USER4> I meant that it's doing so well precisely because he's still there, and that's why I'm surprised (that he's still there). He really cares!</comment></comment></comment>


The Biggest Rip-off In History - <AUTHOR>

After spending 5 years at an accredited university and receiving my bachelors in business with a degree in finance, having spent thousands of dollars and countless hours doing work and studying and stressing for tests and other fun-filled projects, I can wholeheartedly tell you that it was all A COMPLETE FUCKING WASTE OF TIME.
Thank god I went to a relatively inexpensive university with scholarships to pay most of the bills, because if I had thousands in debt right now, or hundreds of thousands like some people out there, I'd probably shoot myself in the face. The worst part is these debts are inescapable; the wages from your nonexistent job will be garnished for eternity. You can thank the U.S Gov. for that. Then when you ask yourself what you got out of it- a bunch of lectures, outdated powerpoint presentations, and useless tests- that's when things get really depressing. And that job you were supposed to get when you got out? LOLZ. It disappeared quicker than the smoke from your first bong hit from when you joined Lambda Alpha Shmelta freshman year. Recessions are a biatch. Now you get to join the hordes looking for jobs in their $60 monkey suits and empty briefcases.
When I think of college now, I think of big fancy institutions with nice looking buildings and nice looking equipment, with incredibly over-paid professors that are half-teaching naive kids stuff they won't even remember, or won't even be useful by the time they graduate. In most cases, it's stuff you could have learned on your own, buying an $8 used book off of Amazon and reading it in a few days. Yet students are forced to buy $300 dollar textbooks, because their professor got kickbacks from the publisher to require the 22nd edition of their Art History text.
It's all a business. Period. Under no circumstances should an education cost $30,000 or more a year. Unless members from an advanced alien race flew down in a spaceship and landed in my backyard, promising me that they would show me the secrets of the universe and an internship in another galaxy for $30,000, I might do it, but I would still try and bargain with them. But people go to second rate universities all the time and pay that kind of money for degrees in Fine Arts and Liberal Arts. LMAO. What the hell kind of job are your going to get when you graduate? Listen kid with a film degree, no one in Hollywood gives a shit about your short film about a kid with werewolf syndrome who finally accepts himself through the help of a retarded child. You might land a job as an assistant for some under-funded productions company somewhere, but you could have got that without any degrees.
Even more noble degrees are turning out to be more worthless by the minute; most science degrees, urban affairs degrees, even some degrees in business are about as good as a G.E.D. Look, the whole point is, you're going to college to get a good job and make money, right? The thing is, those jobs are vanishing by the day, and even if there are openings, there are more qualified people with experience and hundreds of others with the same crappy degree applying for them. If you want a job so bad, you're better off learning Chinese and moving to the Nanchang province, because that's where they all got outsourced. And if you're going to college to just learn, there are far cheaper, faster, and exponentially more effective ways to learn about whatever you want, not just the crap they have chosen for you already.
Forget about the status you will gain or what people will think about you if you go to college or not. If you're going to college to make a lot of money, just know that no one gets rich from a job. You get rich by owning assets, and by producing and selling things. Unless you really want to be a doctor, lawyer, or in high finance that requires a degree, then consider skipping college all together. Figure out what you really love doing/creating and find a way to sell it to people. And if you want to learn, there is boatloads of inexpensive and interesting books, unlike ridiculously priced college text books. There is also the internet, which used correctly, can make you ten thousand times smarter than the guy who graduated from Thomas Jefferson U. Then, if it requires, you get a mentor who can actually show you the ropes. College will never do any of that, and therefore is a giant ripoff and waste of time. <comment><USER2> I agree that college is overpriced in general. However, not getting a degree is just not an option for most people. It's not just lawyers, doctors and high finance -- entry-level jobs in most professional fields including sciences, engineering, education, nursing, psychology, journalism (I can go on and on) require at least a bachelor's degree. Yes, people can learn a lot on their own, but without that piece of paper, many positions will be completely out of reach for you without it (not saying its right or wrong, just that it's reality)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes this is true but the main thing is jobs are very tight or are being undermined everyday- in almost every field. I'm saying to the ppl who are still trying to figure what they wanna do to rethink things

</comment></comment><comment> mark-r Bitter much?

The value of a college education hasn't changed in a long time. It has never been a guarantee of a job. It has never been the only way to learn things. The only thing that has changed is the cost: the price of college has outpaced inflation for many many years. Only a small part of your rant covered that aspect.

Success comes to those who demonstrate their worth. A degree is only a part of that process.

<comment><AUTHOR> First you say the value of education hasn't changed then you say the only thing that has changed is the price? Not sure but that sounds like a conflicting statement. Also people do go to college thinking they will get jobs when they get out. While that could happen, their degree offers no real advantage in many cases.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> How has your experience biased you with regard to high end universities? You say yourself you attended an inexpensive school, thus we can assume it wasn't a top tier school. I am not sure I would fully discount the name-brand value. More doors open because of brand value.

As a whole, I found this post was rather bland and didn't offer much real insight.

<comment><USER4> this. and I went to a shitty school.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is just one of the symptoms of a country that is paralyzed by it's continuing corruption. You are part of the solution, good luck to you and your generation with trying to get rid of some of that corruption. (not meant cynical)

</comment><comment><USER6> Don't underestimate the biggest advantage of going to college - people you will meet.

Other than that - I agree. If you seek knowledge - just pull your finger out. College won't do it for you.

</comment><comment><USER7> You always can come to countries like Spain, with badly paid professors and poor equipment but almost free education. It will cost you less than 1k dollars per year :-)

</comment><comment><USER8> just like law school, the value comes from connections and the piece of paper. If you look strictly at the value of the education proper, it will always be overpriced. That's why its worth spending money to go to an ivy or mit or stanford.

When I was raising money, it was easy to leverage pedigree (top school) and connections (lots of rich friends) to reach my target. These are benefits from college that aren't reflected in the degree.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> If you liked this blog follow me at advancedinsight.blogspot.com

<comment><USER4> what a waste of time. i cant believe i commented before reading this...</comment></comment>


Oracle finally targets Java non-payers – six years after plucking Sun - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/12/16/oracle_targets_java_users_non_compliance/ <comment><USER3> What a bad article, unclear contents and based on only one source - which by the way wants to sell his services.

Going to the Oracle Java site the menu says:

      Java SE
      Java EE
      Java ME
      Java SE Support
      Java SE Advanced & Suite
      Java Embedded
      Java DB
      Web Tier
      Java Card
      Java TV

IANAL The article seems to be about "Java SE Advanced & Suite" including JRockit VM and other advanced tools.

The license on the Java SE download page

[http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/inde...](http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index- jsp-138363.html)

here

[http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/...](http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html)

does not include the words

      intelligent systems
      general purpose computing

so it's unclear of what download TheRegister is talking about.

[Edit] After downloading the Windows JDK the installer says "The Java Mission Control ... is now available as a part of the JDK". There is an app "Java Mission Control" after installation. There is no click through EULA during installation. There is also no linked license in the app which I could find.

Is the term in the click-through EULA of the installer?

<comment><USER4> No. Did you actually read the entire article?

"Java SE is free for what Oracle defines as "general purpose computing"...But it is customers in these general-purpose settings getting hit by LMS. The reason is there's no way to separate the paid Java SE sub products from the free Java SE umbrella at download as Oracle doesn't offer separate installation software"

<comment><USER3> From the article

"Java SE is free but Java SE Advanced Desktop, Advanced and Suite are not. Java SE Suite, for example, costs $300 per named user with a support bill of $66; there's a per-processor option of $15,000 with a $3,300 support bill"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Oracle will become the new SCO :)

That said, the article is a bit fuzzy.

For example, if you want to use Flight Recorder you have to explicitly enable commercial features UnlockCommercialFeatures.

This is however free for non-production use. That is "designing, developing and testing"

[http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/...](http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license/index.html)

> A. COMMERCIAL FEATURES. You may not use the Commercial Features for running > Programs, Java applets or applications in your internal business operations > or for any commercial or production purpose, or for any purpose other than > as set forth in Sections B, C, D and E of these Supplemental Terms. If You > want to use the Commercial Features for any purpose other than as permitted > in this Agreement, You must obtain a separate license from Oracle.

> B. SOFTWARE INTERNAL USE FOR DEVELOPMENT LICENSE GRANT. Subject to the terms > and conditions of this Agreement and restrictions and exceptions set forth > in the README File incorporated herein by reference, including, but not > limited to the Java Technology Restrictions of these Supplemental Terms, > Oracle grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license without > fees to reproduce internally and use internally the Software complete and > unmodified for the purpose of designing, developing, and testing your > Programs.

<comment><USER6> Oracle won't die anytime soon.the database from oracle is just too good for big data.

<comment><USER7> I don't find it better than PostgreSQL for most applications but their sales department is much stronger. In the enterprise, many applications are sold specifically to run with the Oracle system. Oracle's other products can be a mish-mash - Peoplesoft is a horrible mess (my favorite line during the sales process was "PeopleCode is a Javascript like language that compiles into COBOL - later we found that the COBOL compiler wasn't included in our quote).

I do need to say that there's a lot of humor available with Oracle - <USER2> Ellison's keynote at Oracle OpenWorld made me think I was hearing about AWS. Every product he talked about was cloud-this and cloud-that. Who knew that every product Oracle ever made was part of the cloud? He also trotted out the idea that you could create applications without developers by demonstrating an application he made himself - I guess he's representative of a typical administrative assistant?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Bryan Cantrill has called Oracle the North Star of Rage - whenever you are confused or lost, you can realign your coordinate system relative to Oracle.

I have never had to deal with Oracle, but every time I read something about them in the news, I think of of that nice quote and tend to agree a little more with Mr. Cantrill.

On the other hand, I wonder why they do this? This can only hurt Java. I would imagine some companies will take this as a sign and go with .Net where they presumably do not have deal with problems like this one.

<comment><USER9> Let me tell you... my company got acquired by Oracle. We thought things would be OK. Nothing changed immediately. Slowly but surely they turned the screws. 5 year laptop replacement policy. You get the corporate standard laptop and you'll like it. Sales? Oh those guys can buy new Macs every two years, they get whatever they want. Then you understand where Software Engineers rank in the company hierarchy. Oracle took the average price of our product from $100k to $5 million for the same size deals. Our sales went from $5-7m to more than $40m with no increasing in engineering headcount (team of 15). Didn't matter when bonus time came, we all got stack-ranked and some people got nothing. As a top performer I got a few options, worth maybe $5k.

Oracle exists to extract the maximum amount of money possible from the Fortune 1000. Everyone else can fuck off. Your impotent internet rage is meaningless. If it doesn't piss off the CTO of $X then it doesn't matter. If it gets that CTO to cut a bigger check then it will be embraced with extreme enthusiasm.

The culture wears down a lot (but not all) of the good people, who then leave. What's left is a lot of mediocrity and architecture astronauts. The more complex the product the better - it means extra consulting dollars!

My relative works at a business dependent on Micros. When Oracle announced the acquisition I told them to start on the backup plan immediately because Oracle was going to screw them sooner or later. A few years on and that is proving true: Oracle is slowly excising the Micros dealers and ISVs out of the picture, gobbling up all the revenue while hiking prices.

tl;dr: If your company is getting acquired by Oracle run away. I wish I had followed my instincts and bailed out much sooner. The place is horrible as a matter of policy to drive down the cost of software engineers so they don't have to make as many layoffs from their constant stream of acquisitions.

<comment><USER10> > Oracle took the average price of our product from $100k to $5 million for > the same size deals. Our sales went from $5-7m to more than $40m with no > increasing in engineering headcount (team of 15)

Not that I like the Oracle sales model, but that is impressive. Playing devils advocate, perhaps they are justified to treat sales so well.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, I was a bit baffled that was cited as a failure of some kind.

This just tells me pre-acquistion they weren't charging what the market would bear for their product, by a factor of 50.

Which is probably one of the reasons Oracle bought the company in this first place.

<comment><USER12> It also could be that Oracle realized the customers had some degree of perceived lock-in, so they jacked the price up to milk the customers dry on license renewal time. The customers paid once because they had little alternative, but started their transition to something new as soon as they could. The well will run dry quickly. They do the same thing with Oracle DB license audits, and burned CIOs pay the penalty and instruct their teams to start removing as much Oracle as they can as fast as they can so it doesn't happen again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The article was very confusing to me. Does it really mean if I get the standard download that might have some licensed components (Flight recorder for example) I'm on the hook even if I don't enable/use those features? The VM even has flag for unlocking commercial feature so that doesn't make sense.

Or is it the fact that people are using commercial features thinking that all the free downloaded bits are free, that seems a bit naive for big companies.

Also not sure of the distribution angle, if I don't use the msi installer and bundle it in a zip or something does it still require a commercial license? From reading distribution FAQ it seems I can distribute it internally my organization not sure if I can as part of commercial application sold to 3rd party.

<comment><USER14> Your best bet is probably to use the OpenJDK build for Windows. It's an MSI file and it doesn't have any of the Oracle crap attached to it.

[https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/overview/](https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/overview/)

<comment><USER8> Thank you! I did not even know that existed!

<comment><USER15> Also, OpenJDKs packages exists for various GNU/Linux distributions.

<comment><USER8> _That_ I did know. ;-)

But I work as a sysadmin at a Windows shop, and deploying the JRE on ~80 machines has been a real pain so far. With an MSI package, I can just use a GPO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Incompetently written article. There are commercial applications you can download for free, with the Oracle JDK, that you need to licence if you plan on using them commercially such as Flight Recorder and Mission Control.

</comment><comment><USER17> I guess the best way to be absolutely sure you don't break the license is to uninstall Java.

</comment><comment><USER18> I guess I'd like to know what features are used that activate the licensing conditions? i.e. the specific software or libraries that are part of Java SE Advanced & Suite

I have to say that I'm entirely unsurprised though. Oracle has been doing this across their database space for many years: they are kings of the dodgy shakedown. Anyone who decides to go with Oracle on any new venture or as part of any new development are absolutely insane to do so...

I'm genuinely waiting (or at least, I _was_ waiting before Trump was voted in as President) for the U.S. Government to litigate against Oracle.

</comment><comment><USER19> Is there a word for being simultaneously shocked and not shocked at the same time?

<comment><USER20> Mildly shocked? [http://m.imgur.com/gallery/KR93TA2](http://m.imgur.com/gallery/KR93TA2)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Sadly the article is thin on facts and the article writer confused. Questions coming to mind:

1\. Is this only Windows? OS X?

2\. Which download is this in particular?

3\. What if applications like IntelliJ Idea bring their own JDK?

</comment><comment><USER21> Probably a naive question, but where does this put open source projects that use Java? Tomcat springs to mind ...

<comment><USER22> OpenJDK is fine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Java cannot die soon enough.

<comment><USER16> Java isn't going anywhere. C#, though, does seem to be dying.

<comment><USER24> I have literally no idea what would lead you to that conclusion. C# has been growing by leaps and bounds.

<comment><USER25> It depends where you are. My company switched to Java from C# because the right executives heard about open source. If you ask most managers around here C# might as well be COBOL and Java is a brand new language( certainly not something from the 90's originally intended for cable box menus).

So there are certainly bubbles where C# is dying if only for stupid reasons.

<comment><USER26> What a strange time to switch to java, with MS acquiring Xamarin and dotnet core

<comment><USER27> AFAIK .NET Core offers nothing of any value for cross-platform GUI though. There is Xamarin.Forms but last I looked at things it was pretty shit compared to Java's offerings.

<comment><USER26> Xamarin.Forms isn't really equivalent to any (commonly used) Java options. Something like GTK# or WinForms+Monk would. There's also Eto and Avalon "in the pipeline" so to speak.

To me neither Java nor C# does well at WORA UIs but they are at parity imo. JavaFx isn't bad, but it doesn't do anything the C# offerings can't do fairly easily.

I'm actually a fan of Qt for true cross-platform apps these days myself

<comment><USER27> Agreed on Qt.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This entire article is bullshit clickbait designed to appeal to select baseless biases.

It offers no meaningful content except for this single sentence:

"The Register has learned of one customer in retail with 80,000 PCs which was informed by Oracle it was in breach on Java."

There are no further details about why this customer was "targeted" or the nature of their licensing deal with Oracle.

I would think after all these years people would know that (a) the Register is a well-known source of fake news/clickbait/misleading headlines (b) Java is open-source (full-stop) and wholly free software and (c) products like "Java SE Advanced Suite" have nothing to do with the Java language or the JDK. (Though I can see why (c) would be confusing, though Sun started this product of calling everything Java XXX (tm).)

It's a shame that such an article gets written to feed advertisers useless clicks but it's really disappointing to see it on the hacker news front page.

<comment><USER29> Yeah I'm not in love with Java, but let's also not forget that Google has successfully extracted Java from Oracle's hands at this point, to a billion- or-so installation extent.

<comment><USER30> By essentially re-implementing Java. That doesn't apply to the rest of the world.

<comment><USER31> And Oracle sued over that. Still is suing over that. The suit threatens all of software by declaring APIs exempt from fair use.

<comment><USER26> It's not like Google didn't do anything wrong, the fragmentation created by dividing Java into Java, and "Android Java", is damaging

<comment><USER29> One could argue that the Java ecosystem was already pretty fragmented and weird anyway: Java Card, Java in the browser, all the many versions of the JVM on every platform, and open source JVM "forks"... right?

<comment><USER26> Sure, but then Google went and added another billion plus installations of a new fork that only shares very superficial ties with normal Java (in reference to Dalvik, which has been replaced but still defines the _intentions_ Google had as far as staying compatible).

And to add insult to injury, they've gone and fragmented Java on that platform too.

Right now on Android you can have:

Java "6.5" hybrid, Java 6 with some Java 7 features

(Overwhelming majority of developers are stuck with this, and this is where an Android project defaults to.)

Java 6 with some Java 7 and 8 features but no Java 8 APIs

(Retrolambda)

Java 8 without the proper Java 8 APIs, but breaking several popular tools for Android development

(Jack + Devices not on Android N)

Java 8 with proper Java 8 APIs, but breaking several popular tools for Android development

(Jack + Devices on Android N)

I've always felt that Oracle _should_ have some legal recourse for what Google did. It honestly doesn't feel that different than what Microsoft did with Visual J++ and we saw how that went down. It's a shame it's come down to the case for copyrighting APIs instead of the case for punishing Google for subtly breaking Java's maturity on their platform while benefiting from calling it "Java".</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Microsoft wins federal appeal over warrants for data held outside US - <AUTHOR> https://www.rt.com/usa/351052-microsoft-emails-ireland-server/ <comment><USER3> This is great news (for consumers world-wide and for American companies). Bad for European companies which could have used this as a competitive advantage.

As someone else said in this thread, it restores some sanity to US extraterritorial jurisdiction.

<comment><USER4> > As someone else said in this thread, it restores some sanity to US > extraterritorial jurisdiction.

It doesn't seem that obviously sane to me, since it means we have a largely arbitrary distinction between electronic documents and physical documents.

For instance, suppose you loaned me a valuable physical document of yours. I put it in a safe deposit box at a bank in the United States. You ask for the document back and I refuse. You could go to court and get a court order telling me to return the document to you.

Now supposed instead I had put that document in a safe deposit box in a bank in Mexico. You would still be able to get a US court order telling me to return the document to you. To avoid contempt of court, I'd have to go to Mexico and retrieve the document.

Yet this would not be seen as the US court trying to exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction over Mexico or Mexicans. Mexico has no problem with me going there and retrieving items from my safe deposit box [1]. It is irrelevant to them _why_ I've decided to retrieve the document from my safe deposit box.

We also have a kind of similar thing with money. If I owed you $1 million, and you sued to collect, a court might order me to transfer $1 million to you. If I had arranged things so all of my money was in a foreign bank account, and I only had a few thousand dollars worth of seizable assets in the US, the court could still order me to transfer the money from my foreign bank account, and that would not be seen as extraterritorial jurisdiction.

If we make a slight change, so that I've lost the key to my safe deposit box and the bank is refusing to bypass this and open the box for me, and the court ordered the bank to open the box and turn over the document, then it would matter where the bank is located.

If the bank was in the US, no problem. If the bank was in Mexico, then the US court attempting such an order would be attempting to exercise extraterritorial jurisdiction. The difference is that now they are trying to compel Mexicans to do something.

OK, now let's switch to an electronic document. So instead of storing it in a safe deposit box in the above scenarios, I'm storing it on a server. Let's say I have servers in both the US and in other countries. When I store a document, I pick where to put it based on considerations such as available capacity at my various servers, network latency, storage cost, and other things like that. Assume I'm in the US, and I control all my servers from my office in the US.

I can't see any reason to treat this different than the safe deposit box or money scenarios.

Basically, if I have control over something and can legally move it around or transfer it, then a court that has personal jurisdiction over me ordering me to move that thing around or transfer it is just exercising its personal jurisdiction over me. It is not trying to exercise jurisdiction in or over the place where the thing resides.

[1] well...I'm just assuming that foreigners are allowed to have safe deposit boxes in Mexican banks. If Mexico restricts foreign use of safe deposit boxes, pretend that instead of Mexico I picked some country that does allow foreigners to use safe deposit boxes.

<comment><USER5> _For instance, suppose you loaned me a valuable physical document of yours. I put it in a safe deposit box at a bank in the United States. You ask for the document back and I refuse. You could go to court and get a court order telling me to return the document to you.

Now supposed instead I had put that document in a safe deposit box in a bank in Mexico. You would still be able to get a US court order telling me to return the document to you. To avoid contempt of court, I'd have to go to Mexico and retrieve the document._

This case isn't about _discovery_ , it's about search warrants. In the case of discovery, it's pretty established that a parent company is, generally, required to produce documents of a foreign subsidiary.

The requirements for search warrants are different. Generally, search warrants are only valid for the jurisdiction in which the application comes from. In the case of documents/servers/safe deposit boxes/etc in Mexico, the US would not have jurisdiction, and would be required to gain the cooperation of Mexican law enforcement.

This is why this case is even being heard. The US wanted to force Microsoft to allow a search of a foreign subsidiary's documents, knowing that the law enforcement of the country in question would never execute the search (since it's illegal in Ireland).

Edit:

A key difference between a search warrant and the discovery process is who the courts are ordering to take the action in question. "A search warrant is a court order that a magistrate, judge or Supreme Court official issues to authorize law enforcement officers to conduct a search of a person, location, or vehicle for evidence of a crime and to confiscate any evidence they find."[0]. Contrast that with "A motion to compel asks the court to order either the opposing party or a third party to take some action. This sort of motion most commonly deals with discovery disputes, when a party who has propounded discovery to either the opposing party or a third party believes that the discovery responses are insufficient."[1]

In the search warrant case, the court is authorizing a law enforcement to take an action. In the motion to compel case, the court is ordering the non- compliant party to take an action.

[0] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant)

[1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_to_compel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_to_compel)

<comment><USER6> I honestly don't think I've ever seen or heard a legal analogy that was legally analogous at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If they didn't win why would any country want to use an American cloud provider? The USA could be shooting themselves in the foot in a big way. Trust is key to adoption.

</comment><comment><USER8> If I understand this correctly this means a corporation could buy an independent island, store the data there and the US could not issue a warrant for information from those servers. I wonder what this means for servers on barges as well. Google had a plan to build floating server farms a few years ago.

<comment><USER9> The ruling in this case means that they do not even need to buy an independent island. They already have one, i.e. Ireland. This ruling just restored a little bit of sanity to the state of warrant procedure and US extraterritorial jurisdiction.

<comment><USER10> But they don't need warrants to get information intercepted by Ireland - <USER2> freely trade information with their security services

<comment><USER11> Yes, but first someone in Ireland has to get a warrant to allow someone t intercept those information. And with a very good reason that violates Ireland laws.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> It seems like access to data on US soil is a competitive dis-advantage for American companies.

<comment><USER13> Or perhaps an advantage. Data stored on US soil is subject to more legal protections. Data stored in other countries is fair game for American intelligence agencies, the most sophisticated in the world by far, to hack and steal. This case was just about whether the US government could compel Microsoft to hand it over with a warrant.

<comment><USER14> Legal protections like what, FISA court orders?

[http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa- spyin...](http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/06/fisa-court-nsa-spying- opinion-reject-request)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The US will appeal the ruling?

Also, does Rule 41 changes from SCOTUS due Dec 1 basically make this ruling obsolete?

[https://fcw.com/articles/2016/06/30/wyden- rule-41.aspx](https://fcw.com/articles/2016/06/30/wyden-rule-41.aspx)

<comment><USER16> My reading is no, since the Rule 41 changes still require the warrants to be issuable under US law, just removing the requirement that the actual data be held within the geographic jurisdiction of the particular court to be affected. As this ruling turned on the presumption against exterritorial application of US law and not on the geographic jurisdiction of the particular court issuing the warrant, it would be unaffected by the changes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> PDF of the related court document:

[http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/9fe69789-0ad...](http://www.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/isysquery/9fe69789-0ad8-46e4-9355-33fb82ef652c/1/doc/14-2985_complete_opn.pdf)</comment>


Gladwell : Most likely to succeed : How do we hire when we can't tell who's right for the job? - <AUTHOR> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

<comment><USER2> This article was brilliantly written and right on the money. Superstar teachers are VASTLY underpaid, and it bothers me that dreadful teachers who $*&% the dog are paid the same as highly talented teachers who dedicate their life and talents to their profession.

The CEO of the investment advising company states that he is willing to interview thousands of people to get a handful of potential advisors. He noted that 70 out of the top 125 elite investment advisors are from his firm. Perhaps individuals interested in starting a company could apply similarly stringent techniques in evaluating potential co-founders.

</comment><comment><USER3> This was posted yesterday - but not to worry - it deserves a bit more attention although it might be a bit long for some folks.

<comment><USER4> _"... it deserves a bit more attention although ..."_

Agreed it is worth the read. Evaluating who is best for particular tasks seems to revolve around simulated stress and rigorously tested 'competency'. Not an easy thing to simulate in Startups.

<comment><USER3> Agreed. The suggestion is (and this does not differ widely from my all too long experience in such matters) that the only valid evaluation is "How does someone perform in the job?"

Is it therefore implied that we should hire on criteria that is not task specific (like will someone's personality fit in with the team) and then be prepared to fire them quickly if they don't work out?

The problem is that hiring is a lengthy process - we are all adverse to the idea of it becoming a continual process.</comment></comment></comment>


Tech Companies That Only Hire Men - <AUTHOR> http://techcompaniesthatonlyhiremen.tumblr.com/

<comment><USER2> There was a post on HN jobs a little while back about a startup looking for a "front end guy" which reiterated several times throughout the post that they "need a guy" and if "you're the guy" to contact them.

The job sounded great otherwise, and was definitely one I would have been interested in, but I felt immediately disqualified and annoyed.

Normally these types of things don't bother me and I often think people read too much into things, but for some reason, that one did. Maybe it was the casual nature of the writing. It made it seem more personal, which, in turn, made it seem like the author was making it clear that they actually weren't interested in hiring women, that they legitimately felt as if a man was needed to fill the role properly, or that the idea of hiring a woman was so foreign to them that it hadn't even crossed their minds.

It was very off-putting.

<comment><USER3> fwiw (maybe nothing) I know what you mean about finding certain job postings off-putting. For myself, I don't think it has as much to do with the job posting itself as much as it may have to do with how I am feeling about myself at the moment, and how much I hate the rest of the world.

I can understand and won't argue about your being a woman and being put off by "the guy" language. I'd probably feel the same way, if only because I am 50 and "the guy" seems very young.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, I probably have about 10 years on "the guy," myself.

I guess it was the casual assumption that a man would be the one filling the position. In a lot of ways those unintentional biases are worse than intentional ones.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I cant see anyone letting something like this hit the public on purpose, big HR slip, but its certainly interesting insight to the hiring manager / person who wrote the job description.

If i were to go into that interview as not a man, i would feel disadvantaged.

<comment><USER3> If you were to come to my job interview, I would probably agree you are disadvantaged. :(

<comment><USER4> Why is that?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is dumb. It's merely pointing out pronouns. Should it be he/she everywhere or it? Gender neutral is often 'he'. Should we now say that 'all men are created equal'? Is it splitting hairs yet? Nobody is telling women not to get into tech things. I don't know whether it is general interest or what, but it should not engender such divisive hate.

I think we need more positive role models. Less of this pointless vitriol.

<comment><USER6> I just think women would read this and believe that this company is looking for a male, not a female. I know I would. It would emphasize a bro type of environment.

Your only reference to "he" being gener neutral was from the 1700s... do you have a modern example?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Sorry, they are using correct English. The male gender is used for the gender neutral case. We need something that is truly gender neutral, but all attempts sound wrong to anyone who made it through high school English. S/he is unpronounceable. They sounds strange when talking about a single individual, but kind of works. You works somewhat, but in an employment ad sounds like something out of "Mission Impossible".

<comment><USER8> please cite a source for "The male gender is used for the gender neutral case". as far as i can tell, this is an issue with no clean solution in modern English.

'he or she' is the most reasonable option in my opinion. it is cumbersome, but that is better than sexist or grammatically incorrect.

'we are looking for a technical lead. he or she will have three years experience as a lead developer or similar role.'

<comment><USER9> Singular third person "they" is widely attested and there is no grammatical problem with it at all. It's even in Shakespeare. You can use it, and if anyone complains about it, don't hire them.

<comment><USER10> Shakespeare is not good english. His work is old, and the language has evolved, and his work is poetry.

Also, citation needed for using 'they' as singular. Apart from the fact that it very strongly sounds plural, one of my personal pet peeves with English is the fact that we do not have a singular plural differentiation in the second person. As long as we are re-working pronouns, lets not repeat that mistake.

When I am trying to be careful and gender neutral (for something that needs to be speakable, so no (s)he), I try to structure it to use either 'one' or 'that person' in place of (s)he.

<comment><USER11> While I was also taught that using "he" as a gender neutral pronoun was good english, it looks like that has fallen out of favor.

Seems to be an artifact of older formally trained english teachers.

[http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/30455/is-using- he...](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/30455/is-using-he-for-a- gender-neutral-third-person-correct)

Using "he" has fallen out of fashion.

Call me a purist though, but I still detest using "they". It doesn't seem right.

<comment><USER12> It isn't right. What it is is humiliating. And humiliation is the entire point.

<comment><USER5> I sincerely doubt anyone would ever have any ulterior motives like that. Is the whole world out to get you?

<comment><USER12> Gaslight much?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Deal Truck is Live - <AUTHOR> http://thedealtruck.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi guys, I built this experiment last week and announced it here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8117100](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8117100)

It was very well received, thank you! (What's Deal Truck? Jump to the bottom of this comment.)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment>----

Hacker News has a history of sharing stats so I'll join in the tradition. (Early HN folk will remember great posts from @patio11, @balsalmic and Markus from PoF.)

The post reached #3, attracting 9,950 uniques, 850 of which were in San Francisco. This resulted in 68 new text message subscribers and 6 pickup requests, almost exclusively furniture.

I rented a 17' U-Haul truck and am currently on the streets of San Francisco. I used Craigslist to find someone to help on the truck. I'm paying him $200 for the day.

Rental trucks are surprisingly cheap – I reserved a 17' truck for $30 + $2/mi. I'm a sucker, so paid $14 for $15k cargo insurance.

After years of native mobile development I'm using a vanilla web stack. Rails 4, Bootstrap 3, and Twilio. The app is built for mobile, thanks to responsive layouts and text message alerts. Build time was a little over 1 week.

Happy to answer any questions as I get a break between pickups!

\</comment><comment></comment><comment>----

What is Deal Truck?

I'm renting a truck to pick up anything you want to sell. Furniture, appliances, etc. – anything of value that fits on a moving truck, as long as it works, is in good condition, and isn't something you'd typically donate.

At pickup, we photograph your items, put them on the truck, ask for minimum selling prices, and notify SF folks of the deal. Highest bidder after 90 mins gets the item delivered. We have 100's of interested buyers in SF.

</comment><comment><USER2> It works best for people when moving to a new place and need to fill their place. Are you thinking about contacting or targeting a higher end segment of craglist sellers, e.g [http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/fuo/4615016521.html](http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/fuo/4615016521.html)</comment>


Shining some light on the history of OS/2, Win9x and NT - <AUTHOR> https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/67492.html <comment><USER2> Mostly wrong IMO. NT is more like VMS rewritten + pieces of MS code integrated (or rewritten), certainly not a "portable OS/2". The OS/2 parts were confined in the subsystem and are now extinct. As for the IBM did not know how to do OSes opinion, that's both kind of a joke and meaningless: in gigantic organizations, there is not a single mind and single centralized knowledge about X or Y. It bowl down to smaller teams, or even sub-teams. And if there were, "IBM" has done plenty of OSes, and some of them have been in service and backward compat for way longer than anything MS did, ever.

<comment><USER3> NT is a new design by the people who were involved in VMS. Even when they didn't replicate everything, they had already acquired "taste" and "experience" so some solutions of some problems are very similar, to the point that knowing some detail in one OS gives you a good knowledge about the basics of the detail in another. But this is only in some aspects. There are a lot of important solutions that were made for the first time only in the NT.

The team developing NT had the requirements to fulfill that were never put in front of them, and their result was at the end something in many aspects fundamentally better than any competition. There are of course some aspects that the competition did better too, but that was not enough to win the market.

Whoever really wants to learn more about how it was made, including a lot of details about the humans involved, should read the very good written book

"Show Stopper!: The Breakneck Race to Create Windows NT and the Next Generation at Microsoft" (1994) by G. Pascal Zachary

<comment><USER4> > Whoever really wants to learn more about how it was made, including a lot of > details about the humans involved, should read the very good written book > "Show Stopper!...

I can't recommend this book enough. It's a very interesting story and gave me an appreciation for what it takes to do big things in the software industry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Not only did I live through this era of operating systems, I'm also a voracious reader of the history of tech companies and have read dozens of books on Microsoft and IBM history, and yet never once have I heard many of the claims in this article. I'd take it with a grain of salt if it were me.

<comment><USER6> I found the claim that OS/2's difficulty to run in a VM lead to Virtualbox pretty fascinating. I can't find any direct sources for this claim at a cursory glance but it does seem that Virtualbox supported OS/2 quite early on. Interestingly, it seems that Virtualbox began life in 2007, which makes it confusing if true; why were people so interested in virtualizing OS/2 in 2007?

<comment><USER7> I recall seeing ATMs running OS/2 until quite recently.

I could imagine that the hardware running that software was getting quite long in the tooth, and that a virtualised platform would be a potential stop gap measure in extending the service life of that investment.

Now I see a good number of embedded windows ATMs (that tell tale click sound is always a dead give away). I assume that the majority of the OS/2 ATM Fleet is long since gone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > DEC cancelled it. Cutler and his team left and went to Microsoft. MS didn't > know what to do with this élite group so it gave them OS/2 3 to finish.

Based on the Showstoppers book -- it's more like: Bill Gates knew the days of Windows 3.x were limited, and needed a new, next generation operating system.

Gordon Bell convinced Bill Gates to call David Cutler, of VMS/DEC fame (Bill Gates was always impressed with DEC as an engineering company).

Cutler was like, "what, come work for that dinky company that makes crappy Office docs and a shitty OS? Psscht."

Bill persisted, saying it'll be a brand new OS that he'll lead. Cutler insisted only if he got to bring his DEC team (like, 200+ people) and basically got whatever he wanted. Bill obliged.

NT development started in '89.

Such a pivotal moment in computing history. If I ever got to chat to Bill Gates, I'd ask him what he was more proud of: a) getting Cutler on board for NT, or b) orchestrating the backward-compat mindset that set up the Windows 3.11 -> Windows 95 -> Windows NT -> Windows XP transition.

<comment><USER9> I would say Windows 3.1 -> Windows NT + Windows 95/98 -> Windows 2000.

The transformation from the sausage factory of the indestructible, but inflexible, NT and the fragile set of hacks which was 95 into 2000 environment was the real story in all this.

This combined with to migrating from Netbios and NT Domains to tcp/ip and active directory was really the basis for everything they've done in the 21st century. They did more in those 6 years than they've done in the 20 years since.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is hard to pull an accurate history from a couple decades ago. All I know is that when I worked at IBM in those days, a few coders told me that OS/2 was supposed to be an OS for mainframe controllers, but that it got usurped by people with other ideas, and was just another project that wasn't going to fly very far.

I didn't know whether that was true, why they said it, or what really was going on with the people involved. But I remember the comment and always take what I hear about the history of projects with a grain of salt.

</comment><comment><USER11> There's some misstatements in there. "IBM developed OS/2 2 on its own" is definitely not true. I was working with OS/2 1.x and receiving frequent drops of early development versions of OS/2 2.x all clearly from Microsoft on floppies with Microsoft OS/2 2.0 all over them. I even went to MS's Redmond campus for several weeks of OS/2 API programming. What is true is that MS was tasked with the OS/2 3.x effort while IBM carried on with the OS/2 2.x line.

At the time, the Windows 9x vs OS/2 2.x didn't have a clear expected winner. In the end the doom of OS/2 was due a lack of applications. There were other contributing factors like how IBM simultaneously launched the PS/2 line and the OS/2 1.x version were rarely run on non-IBM hardware (v1.3 ran like a dream on PC clones though.)

</comment><comment><USER11> The WinOS2 development was an incredible marketing and technical marvel. Codenamed Ferengi and sold as "OS/2 for Windows" it allowed you to 'upgrade' your Windows-license installation to run OS/2 with Windows 3.1 running on top of OS/2\. It would be like installing Linux on a Windows machine and getting Linux and Wine. Before it was done, most everyone was saying that it wasn't possible. It ran most of the native windows drivers the main thing that was tricky was sharing the screen to have seamless Windows rectangles overlapping with OS/2 rectangles.

I personally didn't care for running cooperatively scheduled Windows 16-bit apps on a 32-bit OS.

</comment><comment><USER12> Mark Russinovich, the current CTO of Azure at Microsoft, wrote an article years ago pointing out that Windows NT was more than "influenced" by VMS and at the deepest levels it was closer to a rewrite of VMS from VAX assembly language into C.

Components evolved during the rewrite and, of course, there were many new things added, (Win32, NTFS, etc) but the base is the same.

[https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and- vm...](https://www.itprotoday.com/compute-engines/windows-nt-and-vms-rest- story)

<comment><USER13> VMS was mostly written in Bliss, a high-level language, not VAX assembler. When you bought a VAX, it came with a box of microfiche cards showing the VMS source code.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What to do with t-shirts from a defunct startup - <AUTHOR>

I have about 140 t-shirts from a defunct start-up.  Does anybody have any advice of what best to do with it? <comment><USER2> Yes, wear them. You've got t-shirts for the rest of your life.

In my experience, if you take care of them, wearing them once a week and washing in the machine once a week, they can easily last three years (still good after that, only less nice). So you would use them at the rythm of 7 each 3 years. 140*3/7 = 60 years.

Now of course, you probably have t-shirts of various sizes. Either you will fatten or get slimer, and be able to wear them all, or you may have your children and your wife wear some of them, but that should still be good for 20 years.

Now, you just have to find a startup that would print pants instead of t-shirts, and another with shoes, and and you'll be entirely clothed for life! :-)

</comment><comment><USER3> Wear them. I haven't bought undershirts in 10+ years, thanks to a failed startup. I still have one more entire garbage bag full of brand new t-shirts yet to go.

Edit: In this case, it wasn't a failed startup (though the company did eventually fail), it was the marketing department picking a name for our new product, and printing up 500 t-shirts and a truckload of other sales collateral for a trade show, without bothering to check if the name was already trademarked (which it was, by another software company, in the same city).

</comment><comment><USER4> Donate them to your local shelter or thrift store.</comment>


Tell HN: Chicago Holiday Meetup (Help Us Schedule) - <AUTHOR>

Patrick McKenzie's in town and people seem to want to meet him. As his agent in this matter I have advised him that what we should do is hold an impromptu HN meetup, and he has agreed. Brad Flora and two other people have signaled interest via email.
What we need to do is figure out a date. "Impromptu" means "we don't have much time"; Patrick returns to Japan early in January. We could do as early as this week or as late as next week.
We also don't know where we'll have it, but that's a function of who's in; if it's just the people we have now, I'll buy dinner at The Publican (I feel like I owe Brad); as we add people, we'll pick a more appropriate venue. It'll be downtown somewhere. <comment><AUTHOR> I vote Wednesday the 29th but am open to alternate suggestions.

<comment><USER2> 29th or 30th is my vote; however, I'm busy at night, so my vote would be for an afternoon meetup on either day. If that's not an option, I suppose y'all can consider this an out-of-town vote for Rahm.

<comment><AUTHOR> A consensus is starting to emerge for 29/30 (but would be instantly broken if Patrick can't do those days). Having said that:

How's 4PM-ish for you? If we ended up at Publican, 3.30-4 is actually a fantastic time for it, since you can just show up at that hour.

<comment><USER3> 29th has my vote, however for those of us still stuck at a 9-5, will the meetup still be going strong at 5:30 or 6?

<comment><AUTHOR> I can't imagine we'll be sparse at 5:30.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Want to do this as a grubwith.us meal? We've been talking to the Publican and can schedule the meal for the 29th at 4. This way everyone prepays for their meal, shares a bunch of food, family style, and there's no payment drama at the end.

Let me know and we can set it up.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm down with that!

Note though that the kitchen at Publican doesn't open until 5PM, and they book up reliably. We usually sneak in at 4PM at grab empty seats until 6 or so.

There's a light menu (and of course an extraordinary beer list) available starting at 3.30, though.

<comment><USER5> Never been to the Publican. Just took a look at their beer list - amazing!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 27th-29th works for me (I'm in Green Bay, WI, but I'd love to drive down)

</comment><comment><USER7> How early in Jan? I vote Jan 3 since most will be done traveling by that point.

Edit: Is tomorrow (12/20) too early?

<comment><AUTHOR> I can do Jan 3, but only if you vote the thread up so more people can see it. Otherwise I vote tomorrow.

<comment><USER8> This gets my vote. Will a lot of us be traveling the week between Christmas and New Years?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> 29th or 30th works for me. Publican sounds awesome, never been!

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm gone the 28th-30th, unfortunately, so I'd vote for anything before or after that (January 3rd would be ideal.)

Either way, though, welcome to Chicago, Patrick!

</comment><comment><USER11> I vote for the Publican, 29th/30th

</comment><comment><USER12> The 30th works for me. would love to meet up.

<comment><USER13> Ditto.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'd love to come but I have a friend visiting that week, and I don't want to leave her to fend for herself that night :(

<comment><AUTHOR> Bring her. We seem to be aiming at Publican, which is an awesome place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Sounds like I'll be joining up (apologies on the late-add, been sick >.< ). Sounds like fun!

</comment><comment><USER16> 27th, 29th, or sometime this week all work for me

</comment><comment><USER17> I haven't met any of you Chicago HNers before but I would love to. Next week is best for me and I would also vote for the 29th.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm in. Any day before January 3rd works for me.

PS: tptacek, I'm one of those who emailed ;)

</comment><comment><USER19> I'd like to meet Chicago HN folks. The evenings of the 27th through the 29th work for me.

</comment><comment><USER20> Wednesday sounds awesome. Please add me to the list. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER5> 30th sounds good. It'll be cool to meet other Chicago HNers.

</comment><comment><USER21> So long as it's after tomorrow that's good by me.</comment>


Monitoring API changes - <AUTHOR> http://api500.com/post/28155861351/how-to-monitor-for-api-changes

<comment><USER2> This article doesn't seem to contain any surprising information - yes, if you build a product on an API that's not under your control you should make sure you're always up-to-date with information about that API.

What I don't understand is why one would use yet another service (ways 3-5 in the article) to be notified about API changes. It basically means you're now relying on an API that might be changed at any point in time (it probably won't be without prior notification) without you having any say in it AND you now also rely on another service (that does not make a guarantee about a timely manner of notifying you) to get information about said API changes.

<comment><USER3> I think this says that sometime the "crowd" or independant monitors share the information better and faster than the offcial source. But yes it is trust 2 times further. The provider of the information which talk about the API provider... This is why trust is the most important for the API ecosystem [http://api500.com/post/27336458175/developers-are-the- blood-...](http://api500.com/post/27336458175/developers-are-the-blood-of-api- economy)</comment></comment>


Show HN: GhostGround – $1/month, simple Ghost hosting - <AUTHOR> http://www.ghostground.com/

<comment><USER2> You should probably put how much it is for > 10K pageviews</comment>


Google Docs Experiencing 404 for "majority" of Users [Fixed 2:46 PM ET] - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/appsstatus#rm=1&di=4&do=25&hl=en At 1:35p ET an issue was discovered where some users are receiving a 404 error when trying to access Google Docs. <comment><AUTHOR> Update from Google: We're aware of a problem with Google Docs List affecting a majority of users. The affected users are unable to access Google Docs List, but we've provided a workaround below. We will provide an update by August 26, 2011 3:14:00 PM UTC-4 detailing when we expect to resolve the problem. Please note that this resolution time is an estimate and may change. Affected users will see a 404 when accessing the Google Docs home page. You can access individual documents by clicking on the link in the original sharing email, or if you have saved the URL for that document.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: The problem with Google Docs List should be resolved. We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your patience and continued support.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I have a client who uses google apps for biz. They're a law firm. When docs are gone, productivity is gone. Ouch!

<comment><USER2> I'm sure they've saved way more time (and money) using Google Docs than this one hour outage of the document dashboard cost them today...

<comment><USER3> That doesn't mean much if the service is down when you need it.</comment></comment></comment>


The Death of the First Amendment in Cyberspace - <AUTHOR> https://quillette.com/2018/10/22/the-death-of-the-first-amendment-in-cyberspace/ <comment><USER2> This is precisely what Mike Masnick & Co over at techdirt.com have been saying for years. Free speech advocates warned us about this in the 80s, when the US deregulated TV station and newspaper ownership. I seem to recall that back then it was not a 1st Amendment issue because corporations and not the government were doing it. What's different today? The quillette.com article fails to recognize history and address that issue. 2/7, would not read again.

</comment><comment><USER3> We have always been at war with Eastasia . . .</comment>


Matthew Garrett reviews "smart plug" on Amazon - <AUTHOR> https://www.amazon.com/review/RA8OETCRWANHU/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01F041DPG&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=228013&store=hi <comment><USER2> Two stars, because at least it doesn't burn out anything you plug into it. [https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_p...](https://www.amazon.com/review/R2XDBFUD9CTN2R/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm)

<comment><USER3> I think it's reasonable to give something 2 stars even if it has what the reviewer believes to be massive flaws...It seems to be a usable product, as long as the user is very technically proficient and/or lives off the grid...I mean, nice physical design should merit at least one star...

But I'm being mostly selfish here. The reason why I prefer these kind of reviews to be 2-star instead of 1-star-because-of-critical-flaws is because I usually don't read 1-star reviews, as that section is usually full of people complaining about shipping errors or personal grudges. The 2-star and 3-star reviews offer much more signal-to-noise.

<comment><USER4> Whenever i see a "shipping mistake" or "DOA" review i wish i could flag it as inappropiate content.

<comment><USER5> You can. Simply mark it as "is not useful" and amazon will (in aggregate) not show those reviews.</comment></comment></comment></comment>