Maine passes bill to prevent ISPs from selling browsing data without consent - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/30/maine-internet-history-data/ <comment><USER2> I couldn't find links to the actual bill anywhere so I tracked it down:

[http://legislature.maine.gov/LawMakerWeb/summary.asp?ID=2800...](http://legislature.maine.gov/LawMakerWeb/summary.asp?ID=280072014)

The summary: "This bill prohibits a provider of broadband Internet access service from using, disclosing, selling or permitting access to customer personal information unless the customer expressly consents to that use, disclosure, sale or access. The bill provides other exceptions under which a provider may use, disclose, sell or permit access to customer personal information. The bill prohibits a provider from refusing to serve a customer, charging a customer a penalty or offering a customer a discount if the customer does or does not consent to the use, disclosure, sale or access. The bill requires providers to take reasonable measures to protect customer personal information from unauthorized use, disclosure, sale or access. The provisions of the bill apply to providers operating within the State when providing broadband Internet access service to customers that are billed for service received in the State and are physically located in the State."

<comment><USER3> Won't the customer consent just become a line in the T&C's and unless you accept it you can't use their service? This would be a similar situation to the cookie disclaimers.

<comment><USER4> Isn't this covered by: > The bill prohibits a provider from refusing to serve a customer...if the customer...does not consent to the use, disclosure, sale or access [of their data]. ?

<comment><USER5> > The bill prohibits a provider

Nobody cares, what provider does. What matters is whether or not you sign a damn consent form.

Suppose, that there is a popular mobile App, written by Zhang Li Ltd. The App allows you to buy travel tickets, receive discounts in local stores and upload contents of your address book to it's servers. After a while you notice, that everyone uses it. Your local store no longer sells large amounts of grocery unless you make a reservation from The App. All train tickets must be booked by using The App. A bunch of local utilities stopped accepting payments unless you send them via The App. The thing is just so convenient!

One day you notice, that The App requires you to sign some "consent form" in order to use it's advanced features. A month later it threatens to delete your account if you don't "consent" (of course, it won't say so directly — "our ML algo detected, that you are Russian hacker! plz confirm your identity! account secuuuurity!" — that's how it will roll). The App is absolutely not connected to your ISP — it's authors just want to buy the data, that's all!

Reminds you of anything?

<comment><USER6> You're not forced to use an app.

You can go on a web browser even a phone browser and do almost all the activities you can do in an app, and not deal with the T&C of the app once declined. Of course, no one does because they can't be inconvenienced. Again, you might believe that you can't check your Facebook/tender/whatsapp/Snapchat/etc, but that's generally untrue for most of them..

In most places due to govt regulation, you only have one or two ISP's serving a geographic area. So the T&C in this case have an actual impact, not some mythical and perceived injustice by "big tech".

Those app providers have the right to suck every last detail from their meatspace, down to what color socks they like on Tuesday and sell it to Hanes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I look forward to the day when selling user's data requires the user's opt-in every single time a third party wants to access that data. No more "yes to all" or allowing blanket usage in TOS/EULAs.

People who use apps that sell their data should be bombarded with requests to use that data each and every single time, until they either decide the app isn't worth it or the app decides they should try a different business model.

And ad targeting should be included in that. Add a new notifications button to FB - companies that have requested advertising access to me. If I decline or don't answer, I never see their ads.

<comment><USER8> I really don't understand the extreme hostility to data collection and data markets. No one likes ads, but no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the internet. If I'm going to see ads, I'd rather them be something I might potentially find useful than something irrelevant. If I end up buying their product, the exchange is mutually beneficial and both parties walk away with value from the exchange.

What's really great is that it can really help small businesses and startups over large corporations. Brands like Coca Cola can afford to canvas the world with their logo, but a business with a handful of employees must use their marketing budget very carefully. User data and profiling makes it realistic to find those people naturally through their internet habits.

Even if this is being used by politicians, I don't see the harm. If you think people can't think for themselves in the face of political advertising campaigns, then I don't see why you'd also believe that those same people can be trusted with the responsibility of the vote.

I can understand the need for treating data carefully and making sure the data is sufficiently scrubbed for personal identification, but this issue is something different.

<comment><USER9> > no one wants to have to pay a subscription fee to every single site on the > internet.

If we had a reasonable micropayments system so I could spend a few cents per article I read online from non-subscription sites, I'd be thrilled. I do not want to see ads, ever. I do not want companies collecting or selling my activity patterns. If I've signed up for something, I don't want my personal details sold to someone else in order to fund the service. I will gladly pay my proportion of what's necessary to keep the service running in order to avoid the "you're not the customer, you're the product" mentality.

I totally understand that probably most people don't think the way I do. They are happy to exchange their privacy for free stuff, and in some cases wouldn't be able to afford to pay if this wasn't an option. But it's just _sad_ that's the case.

<comment><USER8> Legislating such a micropayments system would centralize the monetization of internet services in a way unprecedented since the advent of the internet. If you're worried a lack of Net Neutrality would suppress free speech, this would strangle it.

You'd create two internets: a bourgeoisie sphere of corporate sites with enough influence to be included in the micropayment system, and the unwashed masses, the sites deemed unworthy of monetization, forced to survive on crippled ad market. The handful of large corporate microtransaction payment processors would get to pick and choose who gets to be on the "good internet" without any oversight.

<comment><USER9> Who said anything about legislation? There's no need for legislation around this.

The problems so far with micropayments infra is that publications don't believe their readers will prefer payment over ads. Which is unfortunately largely true, so anyone starting a micropayments company will have a lot of trouble developing the network effects (both on payer and payee side) to be successful.

I don't know the solution to this, but I'd hope it's not legislation. Well -- a possible solution might be legislation that makes it economically infeasible to run sites on ad revenue and selling data. If we make it onerous or impossible to allow sites to collect and sell data, and make it harder for ad networks to target people, sites will have little choice but to implement subscription schemes, or, hopefully, adopt a micropayments-type structure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I live there and I am proud our lawmakers took this seriously. It seems too common for lawmakers to not understand the ramifications of what was at stake.

<comment><USER11> There was a campaign by the Maine Chamber of Commerce running against it on the grounds that the privacy protections didn't go far enough. They only applied to ISPs (carriers) not to companies higher in the stack (Facebook, etc.). [1]

I couldn't quite work out of this campaign was done out of legitimate concern or was a cynical attempt to derail it? I mean, I agree with them that privacy legislation should apply broadly, but then I'm happy to at least start somewhere.

[1] [https://privacy.mainechamber.org/](https://privacy.mainechamber.org/)

<comment><USER12> I feel like industry groups often use the "perfect as the enemy of the good" tactic to try and sabotage any starting point on progress.

<comment><USER13> Industry groups in favorable contexts would say this is fine, then for the "didn't go far enough" part they just lobby some changes in definitions next year, another change in scope the year after that, etc. Pretty soon it's exactly what they wanted and nobody's the wiser.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> For all practical purposes it won't make a difference. When you sign up for ISP service there will be a new small paragraph buried deep in the long 10000+ word contract text that says you consent to them selling your browsing data, which you have to sign to start the service, which nobody reads anyway.

<comment><USER15> The bill explicitly prevents that behavior.

      "The 'opt-in' nature...would set it apart from other
      state internet privacy laws...

      the proposed Maine law also would prohibit any [ISP] from
      making the sale of customer data part of its mandatory
      [TOS]. It also could not charge higher fees to customers
      who refuse to opt in"

[https://www.pressherald.com/2019/05/29/maine-on-track-to- pas...](https://www.pressherald.com/2019/05/29/maine-on-track-to-pass-nations- strictest-internet-privacy-law/)

<comment><USER16> They can't charge more for refusing to opt in, so nobody will opt in. The only alternative seems to be a hike in rates for everybody. Which isn't necessarily bad, it's arguably better that people actually know what cost they're paying. It's just naive to assume that this is ISPs getting some "extra money" on the side. This is factored into the revenue from the service. Now they'll have to adjust their models.

<comment><USER17> > The only alternative seems to be a hike in rates for everybody.

My naive understanding of the market is that the market doesn't work this way -- you charge what the market will bear. How much a product costs to make has nothing to do with how much you should charge for it; you charge what people will pay you.

So if the market is already buying a product at a given price point, and you find a way to save some money or make some extra money on the side, you shouldn't lower your prices in response unless a competitor forces you to -- and the ISP market has notoriously low competition. You happily take the extra margin and move on with your life.

In the same way, if a margin on a product goes down, but the market still refuses to pay more for it, you shouldn't necessarily expect prices to rise. Sometimes products just have different percentage margins.

In other words, if a company like Apple has good data that people are perfectly willing to buy iPhones at $1200, and they figure out a manufacturing trick that allows them to save $100 on each iPhone they build, they're not just going to drop the price to $1100. Similarly, if Apple has good data that people are _only_ willing to buy iPhones at $1200 (and presumably they do, or else they would charge more), then a buyback or warranty program that loses them $100 per iPhone isn't necessarily going to mean a price increase.

Of course, economic majors are welcome to correct me if I'm oversimplifying this.

<comment><USER9> For an ISP in the US, at least, normal market forces are largely irrelevant, as most areas do not have competition.

<comment><USER18> In my area, there is a lot of competition among ISPs, but I have to talk to sales people on the phone in order to get the best price. The prices advertised online are much higher than what individual sales people are authorized to offer. It often feels weird to haggle, but that's a natural effect of a free market.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I can predict the "Dark Patterns" right now. Giant Accept button and 6pt font opt-out link.

<comment><USER20> Can they email you a "Change of Terms of Service" link (that nobody reads) that explains you auto accept if you continue using their service or some BS?

<comment><USER21> Legally dubious as you can't prove wether someone has read an email or not. Official correspondence has to occur through verifiable means (ex: having them login to a portal, certified mail) in order to handle the approval in order to stand up to a challenge in court.

I'm not a legal professional, and my advice shouldn't be taken as rule. Please consult an attorney.

<comment><USER22> They consider you read emails after a set period of time, regardless of you (do/did/have) actually read. It works like that in Europe not the least.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> > The bill will go into effect if Gov. Mills signs it

She'll sign it. Mainer here who's been following what's been going on (she's our first female governor), she's been very committed to making sure our state is modernized. She quoted Kurt Vonnegut in her inaugural speech.

</comment><comment><USER24> Still can't wrap my head around the idea that they even have my browsing data. Just connect me to the Internet and mind your own business.

<comment><USER25> Boy have I got a surprise for you. I was an engineer at a web analytics firm a decade ago and yes, ISPs have your web browsing data and are selling it left and right. Also apps, Cell phone companies, etc. Our company bought all that data. and when that wasn't enough, we created apps that collected even more. Every click and ajax request, etc.... timestamped.

Yes, there are analysts sifting through your browsing data (if you're lucky, vaguely anonymized). Yes, I heard countless stories of this data being abused and misused. I simply can't imagine it has gotten much better by now.

<comment><USER26> > ISPs have your web browsing data

Since you worked in this area: What specific things do they track, and by what technical mechanism? DNS requests? (Do they capture those that don't go to their servers?) IP addresses? HTTP snooping? Full HTTP (non-TLS) MITM?

<comment><USER25> I wasn't responsible for the data intake, but I know that the data was extensive, and always included time on page, full URL, other request information (often post stuff).

I know that HTTPS provided a technical hurdle that our company and data providers worked around after about 6 months.

My guess is that some MITM-type collection? Some data providers gave us IPs and some just gave us some Tokenized ID. I don't know if ISPs provided IPs, but probably not.

Note that we did lots of data linking. Let's say an ISP provided us your age, URL, and Timestamp. We would link that into another data provider that provided past purchases, URL, and Timestamp (shopping toolbar/plugins do this) to get a bigger picture of who you are.

<comment><USER27> >get a bigger picture of who you are.

Sorry if I'm reading too much into this, but are you saying this data being collected and sold contains PII?

<comment><USER25> Well, PII is a bit of a nebulous term. Some websites still transfer some signup/user info in url parameters or unencrypted responses. We would even see SSNs pop up now and then.

Most data being sold has some good faith effort to remove PII, but that's never 100% complete, and by utilizing multiple data sources, an industrious person or team could de-anonymize your data. We were mostly doing this type of work for segmentation and persona analysis. Targeting an individual was never a goal, but would not have been terribly difficult.

I'll give you an example. We might receive all urls a person visited. Many contain person information that would not be caught in usual PII filtering process: [https://mail.google.com/mail/u/1/#search/my+viagra+prescript...](https://mail.google.com/mail/u/1/#search/my+viagra+prescription)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> munk-a My hope is that a high tracking rejection rate will cause these companies running data vacuums on the side to reconsider the RoI of investing in data vacuums - it could result in a sort of herd immunity to advertising, if 95% of people opt-out the other 5% may be effectively opted out since advertising to just 5% of consumers becomes unprofitable.

</comment><comment><USER28> Section 4-B says it's acceptable to use a customer's personal data:

"To advertise or market the provider's communications-related services to the customer;"

With ISPs that own networks, e.g. Comcast -> NBC, would a service like NBC Sports be considered a communication-related service of Comcast's? If yes, then could they feed that customer data into NBC's advertising infrastructure? If so, could NBC then sell that data?

Do Maine judges tend to honor the spirit or the letter of the law more often?

</comment><comment><USER29> Kind of ironic, when I click it I am presented with a huge oath overlay saying how much they care about my privacy without a "Reject all" button anywhere in sight.

<comment><USER30> Really we need to stop relying on third parties to use our data "correctly" no-one has the time and expertise to carfully read and understand what these third parties say they intend to do with the data and then actually verify that they did what they said.

It is much easier to just assume these third parties will do whatever they want and either not share the data or accept that it will be used in ways you can't control.

<comment><USER31> I agree, but I can't imagine a world where the internet works any different than currently in your scenario.

Eg, right now _(or at least a few years ago)_ companies could basically do anything with your data. And they did. It's getting worse too, with advanced techniques on identifying individuals across website bounds, etc.

That is what is spawning these sorts of debates, laws, etc. So my question to you is while I agree that we have to assume malice _(for ease of discussion)_ , we can't actively allow or encourage malice right? So if we do nothing, do we just accept that they do who knows what with our data?

Ie, I think we mostly agree that what is going on right _(with our data)_ now is bad. So don't we have to do _something_? What do you see as the right solution?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Probably not strict enough. ISPs are just going to shrinkwrap their contracts with an extra clause saying they're selling your data unless you write them a letter to some address which they will check at a ridiculously low frequency or have to call through a call center and deal with every salesman and their brother and sister flabberghasted at such a request while passing it on to their "superior" for an hour at a time while you sit on hold waiting... and in the meantime will sell your data. The law really should have made it completely opt-in only (which nobody would reasonably do) or just bar it completely.

They already know all the tricks to stop people getting out of their contracts, they're just going to start applying that to this kind of opt-out situation too.

</comment><comment><USER33> Define consent. Because I'm pretty sure the only outcome of this will be some new language tucked away in the fine print of every customer's monthly bill giving consent unless they cancel service or something like that.

</comment><comment><USER34> Is this personally identifiable? I don't see any issue with collecting and selling anonymized observations.

It would be like police setting up cameras and using them to train a machine learning model on drunk driver detection. It's not collecting who is driving, just observing how normal cars subtly drift in and out of a lane and brake vs. intoxicated drifting/braking and using that to train a DUI detection model.

<comment><USER35> > I don't see any issue with collecting and selling anonymized observations.

In this day and age when correlating and analyzing data from a wide variety of sources is commonplace, the only effectively "anonymized" data is data that has been discarded.

<comment><USER34> Right so you are basically saying companies/governments should not be able to make generic observations about anything involving people in any way without their consent because it is impossible to have truly anonymous data.

I don't know if I agree with that.

<comment><USER35> No, I'm not saying that.

It is possible, for instance, to collect individual data, tally up certain characteristics in the aggregate, then discard the individual data points and only keep the aggregate statistics.

With certain narrow exceptions, though, no data about me personally should be collected without my explicit permission regardless.

<comment><USER34> > With certain narrow exceptions, though, no data about me personally should > be collected without my explicit permission regardless.

Well, I don't agree with that. I don't see any reason people should have a right to "own" information observed about them.

I make observations all the time about other people. You can't force me to forget what I've observed. Computers make it easier to "remember" and process observations, true, but at the root there is no difference between me observing stuff and writing it down and a computer observing stuff and writing it down.

<comment><USER35> I suspect your objection may mostly fall into what I consider exceptions, such as things done in public spaces (although I don't think it's sustainable to assert that you give up _all_ privacy rights in public spaces).

> at the root there is no difference between me observing stuff and writing it > down and a computer observing stuff and writing it down.

If that computer isn't talking with other computers, I agree. I actually don't have much of a problem with individuals making individual observations of public behavior and writing them down or storing them in a computer.

My concern is more about the parameters around sharing that data (mostly because of the existence of databases and data mining). Further, I'm far more concerned about data collected about me on the internet than in the physical public square.

That said, I do and will continue to go out of my way to avoid as much surveillance as possible even in physical public spaces. For instance, any store using those surveillance devices intended to analyze my shopping behavior, moods, etc., in order to target ads at me is a store I won't be stepping into.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Hmmm...

This might make it worth having me park a server in the state and get my internet feed through a VPN to that server.

<comment><USER36> There's a lot of reliability problems with Maine internet because lobsters keep snipping the cable.

<comment><USER37> I don't know what this site has against jokes, but you can have my upvote.

<comment><USER38> The site guidelines are here [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Jokes aren't explicitly against the guidelines either, but I think the site likes to emphasize high quality content that will not alienate people who don't understand obscure references.

<comment><USER36> Username checks out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> So given that this law and others like it are necessary, does this imply that court verdicts and silence have neutered the right to privacy?

Actually I wonder, have there been any major decisions since Roe v Wade that have affirmed a right to privacy?

<comment><USER40> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) is an example. But these constitutional decisions are about the validity of particular State laws; they don't create free-standing rights that can be enforced against companies that violate your privacy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Good, now we just need to overcome corrupt crooks in Congress and also pass strong Net Neutrality bill, or at least prevent the fake one from passing to avoid cementing perpetual loopholes.

</comment><comment><USER42> Why not just prevent them from collecting it in the first place?

<comment><USER2> A significant amount of the data is stuff that will normally be logged for diagnostics, billing, complying with legal requests etc, ie normal ISP business.

<comment><USER43> I don't think the commercial department gets access to the data collected under lawful intercept regulation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> M'lord pseudolus another great article that we opened can fest on. Another 1000+ points article

</comment><comment><USER45> It's needed, I can tell you from anecdotally someone is feeding these habits to the advertising surveillance bots

</comment><comment><USER46> They should not be allowed to even collect data about particular user browsing.

</comment><comment><USER43> At this point, given the relentless barrage of evidence of 'dark pasterns' and worse in 'consent' luring, the practice should just be outlawed full stop.

</comment><comment><USER47> lets see what kind of slap on the hand fines these ISPs will pay to continue profiting off user data.

</comment><comment><USER48> Just ban it period. Stop the madness.

</comment><comment><USER49> Note that this is only necessary because the 2018 Republican Congress voted to allow ISPs to sell user data.

[https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes- to-a...](https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/house-votes-to-allow- internet-service-providers-to-sell-share-your-personal-information/)

<comment><USER50> You seem to be under the impression that this didn't happen before 2018.

This has been going on for a very very long time.

<comment><USER49> The FCC passed a regulation to stop the practice and Congress voted to overturn that regulation.

<comment><USER51> ...so it was happening before 2018. And therefore has nothing to do with that bill because it was never law?

<comment><USER49> ...so if Congress had not taken that 2018 vote this Maine legislation would not be necessary. Just like I said.

<comment><USER51> That's what you should have said then, instead of they changed something which resulted in this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> This never would have been possible with Paul LePage aka Trump-lite in office.

</comment><comment><USER53> ISPs don't (can't) have your browsing data anyway... Not sure what the point of this law is.

<comment><USER54> They got the ip, time stamp and data amount of every request you make. So unless you use a proxy with https they know quite a lot of valuable things about you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Why not ban browser companies, operating system companies, computer/phone companies, email providers, etc. too?

<comment><USER56> We _should_ ban collecting tons if info about people, for all companies, period. We won't, because banks and CC companies are very into doing that and the politicians love them, but we should.

<comment><USER57> No. Because many businesses rely on data available. FAANG would be out of business then.

<comment><USER58> AAN actually sell stuff other than hyper-targeted ads. F and G (and AAN) still can sell ads, just less targeted ones. They would suffer a bit (or a bit more), but not outright be forced out of business. And same goes for most if not all other FAANG-tier companies not explicitly included in that acronym.

As for the "improving service" angle, e.g. Netflix could ask if it's OK to collect history to improve/personalize recommendations.

And a lot of "improvements" and metrics do not really need detailed data collection per person anyway. Collecting anonymous data in broader groupings is often quite fine. E.g. "Strange Things is really popular our total-views counter says ergo order a new season". There is no need for Netflix to know exactly who specifically watched the show to make such a decision.

<comment><USER56> Is this a generational thing, or an industry-you're-in blindness thing? Or both? We had an economy, and even advertising (so, so much of it) before spyvertising was such a huge thing. It was fine. The sky did not fall. For some reason there's a set of people who seem to think it'll be the end of the world if we stop letting companies operate private dragnet spy operations.

<comment><USER28> I didn't see this before I posted my reply. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who is seeing this. I would go so far as instead of saying:

> It was fine.

To say that "it was better", because there was more competition.

That's a keen insight, that it might be a "generational thing". I remember things, in general, working better before the Shermann Antitrust Act stopped applying to technology companies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> It's all political marketing to make consumers continue to feel good about being screwed over more and more by corporate policy following demands of the very wealthy.

<comment><USER60> What's the point of this level of cynical response when a good bill passes? Let's give some props and do more good things, not sulk.

<comment><USER61> This is passed legislation (and it's not yet clear to me if it's passed one or both houses).

It has yet to be signed into law, enforced, or litigated.

Given past track records on such matters, there's ample room for pessimism.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Do you think layer.com will shut down? - <AUTHOR> My app is built using Parse and Layer. Now Parse is down and I will write the backend from scratch. I am thinking if I should give up Layer too. Of course I don't want it to shot down but do you think there will be a chance? <comment><USER2> I'm the co-founder of Layer.

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Parse was acquired by Facebook and unfortunately did not make the cut despite being a great asset for developers. One of the reasons is Facebook's shift in focus, but I'm sure there are others. I love Parse and I'm a big fan of Ilya and the team.

Layer is independent, backed by strong investors, and focusing on growing revenue. The product, unlike Parse, is very vertically specialized on something very hard to do well in house. Layer is providing value that customers recognize and are willing to pay for. Unlike Parse, Layer powers messaging in both new and established products with large user bases like Hinge, Trunk Club (Nordstrom), and many others.

Happy to answer any questions - email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER3> As a freelancer I've built apps for clients using parse, firebase, and layer. I no longer recommend them to my clients unless they want their app to launch 'ASAP'.

</comment><comment><USER4> You can speculate, best would be to ask them themselves. Always best to stay away from dependencies, that's the issue with SaaS.

</comment><comment><USER5> parse leaver here, yeah could happen if apple decided as facebook done to parse.</comment>


Using G Suite Email as SMTP for Firebase Auth - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/patron-ai/g-suite-mail-as-smtp-service-for-firebase-auth-ec0483d21bb1 <comment><AUTHOR> If you are looking for a cheap and efficient SMTP solution for Firebase Auth. G Suite account can help you with that. Here I explained how it is possible.</comment>


Startup's prefab homes aim for zero energy bills - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/23/MNRR187SSG.DTL&type=realestate <comment><USER2> These houses rely on "the grid" for energy storage but don't pay the grid for said storage.</comment>


Inauguration Crowd Will Test Cellphone Networks - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/19/technology/19cell.html?partner=rss&emc=rss <comment><USER2> How about a congestion charge for the networks?</comment>


Steam Proton for Linux - <AUTHOR> https://www.protondb.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Excerpt:

What is Proton?

"Proton is a new tool released by Valve Software that has been integrated with Steam Play to make playing Windows games on Linux as simple as hitting the Play button within Steam. Underneath the hood, Proton comprises other popular tools like Wine and DXVK among others that a gamer would otherwise have to install and maintain themselves. This greatly eases the burden for users to switch to Linux without having to learn the underlying systems or losing access to a large part of their library of games. Proton is still in its infancy so support is inconsistent, but regularly improving."

Source Code:

[https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton](https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton)</comment>


Facebook Confirms Location Feature - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/09/facebook-location-feature/

<comment><USER2> <http://www.facebook.com/theaxeandpalm>

>New at The Axe & Palm: the Facebook Presence Kiosk! Tell your friends where you are, become a fan of The Axe & Palm, and get a free Starbucks coffee all by just scanning your Stanford ID!

Sorry if this comment feels meager, but I'm going to play it safe and not say anything other than the above, which is publically available information.

</comment><comment><USER3> Local on the Internet is the next big thing and Facebook is wise to step up and take it on before something else gained more ground on it. I don't believe in "checking-in" nonsense, but I do think that being able to get in touch with people near you as opposed to people who aren't near you is going to be important in the future. I'd go more into it, but I have some ideas for startups in the "local app" genre.</comment>


Everyone but Oracle demands Java independence - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/30/oracle_alone_on_java/ <comment><USER2> This here, is a prime example of why we reinvent the wheel every 15 years. Someone decides that they have the market and they are going to exploit it and everyone else packs their toys and goes home.

Then we once again built the ecosystem on the next technology. I personally am looking at who the next guys is going to be. Node looks promising but it is hard to tell. I used to think "sure Java is aging. but there is no huge motivator to move off, its not going anywhere".

Now with each move by Oracle, I am forming the opinion that Oracle is bound and determined to kill it. I don't know what they are thinking, do they think that the Java developers will just go, oh well now Oracle is the only vendor we will get or stuff from oracle? No they will bail, I don't know how they could ever think that it would turn out any other way.

I am dumbfounded by the course of action that they are taking. If it is strategic I can't see the strategy for the life of me (I have not seen the forest through the trees before) and if it is incompetence you would think they would realize their drastic missteps by now.</comment>


Man saves money on train fare by flying from Sheffield to Stansted via Berlin - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12125404/Man-saves-money-on-train-fare-by-flying-from-Sheffield-to-Stansted-via-Berlin.html <comment><USER2> No, he didn't - see my comment here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10984326](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10984326)

It's total nonsense.</comment>


YouTube glitch allows music label giant to 'hijack' videos - <AUTHOR> http://www.information-age.com/technology/applications-and-development/123459184/youtube-glitch-allows-music-label-giant-%E2%80%98hijack-videos

<comment><USER2> If his license to UMG for using the recording did not allow them to use it on YouTube, I would file a DMCA or similar claim (not sure about the territorial issue) against UMG for infringement.

This results in a different process than just a ContentID dispute.</comment>


Ask HN: Similar Image search - <AUTHOR>

What are the alternatives to Gazopa, i tried to upload an image and search for similar but it is almost useless. Now with 'Google Similar Images' you cannot upload your own images as a search query. <comment><USER2> There is tineye.com that lets you upload pictures or use a URL. Tineye tries to find identical images even though they have been resized or altered so I'm not sure if that is exactly what you're looking for.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks, I've tried it , but it didn't work

returns zero results out of "1.6B indexed images"</comment></comment>


Apply HN- FixSmarter: Mobile App So You Don't Get Screwed by Your Contractor - <AUTHOR> You break your front, plate glass window.  What do you do?  Join Angie's list, redbeacon, pro.com, homeadvisor, thumbtack, or search local contractors?  Maybe.  But all you'll get is one or more recommended contractors who will come over and give you whatever estimate for a price they think they can get from you.  You're really no better than looking in the yellow pages.
FixSmarter puts you back in control.  With FixSmarter, you take a video of window.  The video is distributed to local contractors for actual bids.  The price is confirmed by both parties upon inspection.  The cost of the job is held in escrow by FixSmarter until completion of the job.  Disputes over price and performance are resolved in house by experts in FixSmarter through video evidence.  FixSmarter takes a small percentage of the money held in escrow as a fee. All contractors will be vetted, licensed, and have liability insurance.  If they don't have insurance, FixSmarter will provide the means to get insurance.
Unlike what's out there now, contractors don't pay for unsuccessful bids, consumers don't pay to join and both parties can feel certain in price, payment, and performance. FixSmarter's video project proposals combined with in-house dispute resolution takes a giant step forward for consumers needing home repairs.
I've been frustrated by getting home repairs for years and believe in this solution.  I'd love to hear from everyone on why I'm wrong or if I have a Dumb and Dumber like chance. <comment><USER2> I agree the current model is broken and I also think this can improve it incrementally...but I think this problem needs to be rethought from the ground up.

I think multiple bidding strategies or price comparison is inherently flawed for service businesses. It forces adverse selection on both sides. Essentially, to the buyer, all contractors are vetted, licensed, and have insurance, and they have no other context, so they are forced to choose the cheapest bid. However, the sellers (contractors) don't know what type of client this is, how much they might try to change scope, or what the actual project might end up costing, so they are forced to charge as much as possible to cover the unknown.

By forcing them to bid on the project, the better contractors, who are more aware of the potential costs and risks will bid higher than the less competent ones.

Essentially, this will skew the process in a way that the customer will always end up with the worst vendor.

Further, the contractor needs to confirm price upon inspection. If this leads to changing bids, as most industries do, either the customer will be too annoyed with your site and the contractor, or just go with the new bid...and contractors will quickly learn to bid low and quote higher on site.

I would love to hear your thoughts about this and how you hope to overcome adverse selection from a bidding model.

For what it's worth, I have my own ideas for the space, but they aren't technology driven solutions, they are people driven solutions.

<comment><USER3> @davemel37 I like where you're going with this, and I agree that this is a very good problem to address. I wonder if you could design some sort of system similar to Uber pricing algo where you give an estimate ("[Startupname] believes that this job will cost between $70 and $120"), and then include various multiples (I imagine that getting a window repaired in Menlo Park will cost more than doing so in Topeka, KS) for locality, current demand, etc.

<comment><USER2> I think the challenge is in consumer psychology and emotional fear of looking like a fool more than the need for better data. This is why recommendations from friends and neighbors is the go to solution today.

I specifically think the problem is in information asymmetry about the true costs to service the project. Especially considering that some jobs or parts of jobs need deep expertise and others are contracted out to the cheapest labor possible.

In other words...there are things the contractor knows that they consider trade secrets and wouldnt want to reveal them...that is what consumers need to know to be comfortable IMO.

I have a project I am working on along those lines, but its not trchnology driven.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I am pretty into this! I've never been a homeowner or landlord, and a big reason why not is that I don't want to have to keep a rolodex of people to call when things break. I'd love it if you guys would fully automate this for me, and am willing to pay a lot (because my alternative is the rolodex thing, or a property manager).

Idea one: I'm a renter, I want my landlord to fix something for me. Can you enable me to video it with your app and get the landlord to either signup, or at least fix it with his normal contractor?

Idea two: Say I'm a landlord, my renter complains about something being broken. Instead of hiring a property manager, I want to make my renters download the app, submit a fix request and then I'll approve the proposal thru you guys. I'm not a landlord but I could imagine wanting to become one if I didn't have to deal with handling these requests.

I think this is one of those ideas that's hard to distribute, because you aren't needed often enough for people to even remember your app's name when they have to get something fixed. So you'll need a really compelling distribution strategy; maybe landlords can talk to each other or you can go through landlord associations or something.

<comment><AUTHOR> @bestattack Big thanks for your comments. That's an intriguing angle and one we have not discussed yet. It could work very well for landlords to get people out to their jobs. I also think many small landlords do not have contractors they can trust so they could also use it to farm out jobs. Greatly appreciated!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> What kind of arbitration agreement am I signing up for as a contractor?

As a contractor, why would I do this instead of waiting for customers on Angie's List?

What if my initial estimate was wrong and the window costs 2x what I thought it would cost?

<comment><AUTHOR> It would be a streamline AIA arbitration agreement. Angie's List and the other websites have fees in order to get leads. When you get a lead, you are one of multiple leads and you are charged whether or not you get the job. Here the contractor has the fee extracted from the payment he is receiving. If the initial estimate is wrong, the contractor can change estimate (joint approval). As the company developed, a method would be instituted to evaluate the percentage of time/amount a contractor sticks to original bid. Thanks for commenting.

<comment><AUTHOR> Also, supplies would come out of escrow as agreed and needed. Thanks again.

<comment><USER2> what about other ongoing costs, like labor?

<comment><AUTHOR> @davemel37 I think it starts with smaller jobs but I plan on also allowing for releasing escrow for completion of labor on bigger jobs (with video documentation on each stage)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Considering all the administrative overhead why would a contractor use this service?

How will Fixsmarter comply with state insurance laws when selling insurance to contractors?

How would the dispute resolution process superior to that of organizations like the American Arbitration Association that is typically standard in the US construction industry?

How does holding the money in escrow resolve with state various mechanics lien laws?

<comment><AUTHOR> @brudgers thanks for the comments. The contractors that I've been working with on this believe it cuts down on the overhead. They have to be somewhat tech savvy but they welcome takingaway the billing and collecting aspect of the jobs. Fixsmarter wouldn't sell insurance but provide referrals and get referral fees. I think it could comply with the state insurance laws in that capacity. The AAA is great but it is basically a mini-trial and very expensive to get through. This would be agreeing to resolve dispute internally so the parties would be giving up that forum. It would be like when people submit to the jurisdiction of the People's Court rather than going to state court. Mechanic's liens secure non-payment on a job. Here, the money would be in place so that a contractor would not have to start a state court proceeding to enforce a mechanics lien. Appreciate the feedback! I still have to fully vet all the issues that you raise but my preliminary surveys and interviews point to them working out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> How do you scale decision making with regard to whether or not a job was completed to spec? What about conflict resolution in the case of a disagreement?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point. Escrow gets released if both parties submit approvals. If there is a dispute, videos of what was done are submitted to independent mediator who has final say (reviewed in house as well). The customer objecting will have to pay a small fee to object which is refunded with escrow if they are correct. Thanks for comment.</comment></comment>


How much is your signature worth? - b-boy-b http://thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2011/03/09/how-much-is-your-autograph-worth/

<comment><AUTHOR> _There is a story about Salavador Dali...The story goes...I love this story...The other thing I like about it is the story...You tell a story...Either way, it is a nice story..."_

It's a cute story, but it would be nice if the blog post appeared to have taken longer to write than it did to read.

<comment><USER2> Exactly! If you put Salvador Dali in the story, make it worth those 1000 dollars. There are some really good points made, but not eloquent enough. The way I see it: working hard + branding = success

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> my .ppk is invaluable!</comment>


Cathy Gellis Wins Pro Bono Victory Against U.K. Defamation Subpoena - <AUTHOR> http://www.popehat.com/2013/10/24/cathy-gellis-wins-pro-bono-victory-against-u-k-defamation-subpoena/ <comment><USER2> Good for her, but in defense of the UK legal system - there has just been an important case over here that has fairly effectively outlawed the use of the UK courts to prosecute cases which are not rooted in the UK.

There is still some way to go on free speech but "defamation tourism" is on the way out.</comment>


Science That Proves the 9-to-5 Day Is Hell For Creative Workers - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/12/science-that-proves-the-9-to-5-day-is-hell-for-creative-workers/282331/

<comment><USER2> I find that this confirms what we already know. It's hard to fit intense creative time into an 8 hour box.

A quote on Poincare's [1] working habits: _" He worked during the same times each day in short periods of time. He undertook mathematical research for four hours a day, between 10 a.m. and noon then again from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m.. He would read articles in journals later in the evening."_

I think we could find 100 other examples.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Poincar%C3%A9)</comment>


Emergency Dialect - <AUTHOR> http://reallifemag.com/emergency-dialect/ <comment><USER2> From the article: "No right-thinking or peace-loving alien species would choose us, humans, for alliance. The heptapods chose us because we, like them, are consummate destroyers, so skilled at war we wage it from a distance, almost invisibly, speaking softly about co-existence."

It seems like the author has a lot of shame about being human.

<comment><USER3> # You want a human #

Humans quickly get a reputation among the interplanetary alliance and the reputation is this: when going somewhere dangerous, take a human.

Humans are tough. Humans can last days without food. Humans heal so fast they pierce holes in themselves or inject ink for fun. Humans will walk for days on broken bones in order to make it to safety. Humans will literally cut off bits of themselves if trapped by a disaster.

You would be amazed what humans will do to survive. Or to ensure the survival of others they feel responsible for.

That's the other thing. Humans pack-bond, and they spill their pack-bonding instincts everywhere. Sure it's weird when they talk sympathetically to broken spaceships or try to pet every lifeform that scans as non-toxic. It's even a little weird that just existing in the same place as them for long enough seems to make them care about you. But if you're hurt, if you're trapped, if you need someone to fetch help?

You _really_ want a human.

source: [http://iztarshi.tumblr.com/post/145107805571/inspired-by- var...](http://iztarshi.tumblr.com/post/145107805571/inspired-by-various- tumblr-posts-humans-quickly)

...

I'll also link this here because I found it simultaneously hilarious, and troublingly insightful: [http://www.tor.com/2016/10/17/the-answer-to-why- humans-are-s...](http://www.tor.com/2016/10/17/the-answer-to-why-humans-are- so-central-in-star-trek/)

...

And also this: [http://prokopetz.tumblr.com/post/57702943181/mikhailvladimir...](http://prokopetz.tumblr.com/post/57702943181/mikhailvladimirovich- bogleech-its-funny-how)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> >> Over the decades, the list of features posited as universal to human grammar has been laboriously reduced to an almost catchy formulation: human linguistic expressions are linearized, recursive hierarchical structure, with differences in structure associated with differences in interpretation, and, in principle, no limit on the depth of hierarchical structure.

What the article is describing (in very broad terms, probably to suit a diverse audience) is knonw as "merge". It, along with a discussion on the evolution of language, is discussed in the paper below:

[https://chomsky.info/20140826/](https://chomsky.info/20140826/)

</comment><comment><USER5> Contemporary linguistics is to Chomsky as psychology is to Freud.

<comment><USER6> Care to elaborate?

<comment><USER7> My guess is both elevated and popularized their fields and are the only practitioner most people can name. However, almost none of their theories have held up over time.

<comment><USER6> Clearly. I'm interested in how the field has evolved relative to Chomsky.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm not convinced that a "logical form" can exist. It suggests there is a one true universal language of description which does not rely on context. But I'd argue that any language reduces the objects it describes to symbols, and there is no way to agree on such a reduction without some base agreed contextual understanding.</comment>


Copyright monopoly study claims "without copyright, no computers" - <AUTHOR> http://falkvinge.net/2011/11/22/this-is-why-copyright-monopoly-pundits-go-so-very-wrong/

<comment><USER2> They forgot to mention that without copyright there would be no clothes or cars, since the purpose of those items is unquestionably to dress up and drive to the movies. There wouldn't be any food either, because why would people eat if they couldn't watch TV at the same time? If you dispute this, just do a google image search for "TV dinner" and you'll see lots of photographic evidence to back me up.

<comment><USER3> Hell, without copyright there would probably be no breasts or genitals either, their only purpose being to film pornographic movies and take pornographic pictures.

Yeah I heard about this "reproduction" fable, never found a picture of it on google image either.

<comment><USER4> Clearly without copyright there would be no copyright. I was unable to find a copyright picture on google that was not copyrighted.

"Yo dawg, I heard you like copyrighting, so I copyrighted your copyright application, so you can violate copyright while you copyright."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Sounds like someone felt like there was no need to fact-check whatever they were writing. Maybe it was written by some young staffer that only uses computers for YouTube and/or video games?

Otherwise it's pretty unforgivable that the writer could not imagine any other use for computers than media consumption of some sort. They were originally created for business/military as number-crunching devices.

<comment><USER6> Lobbyists.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Link to document in question: [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/divers/stoa/201...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/divers/stoa/2011/460342/DG- IPOL-STOA_DV\(2011\)460342_EN.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER8> [http://www.erawatch- network.com/en/Members/founder/technopol...](http://www.erawatch- network.com/en/Members/founder/technopolis-group.html) seems to be the epicenter of this research, at least two of their employees come up as responsible in the report.

The blurb behind this link reveals them or as lobbyists "on demand" or just one of these uncountable organizations which feed from the seemingly unlimited amounts of taxpayers money in EU policy making. Probably both.

</comment><comment><USER9> The content industry would not exist without content-consumption device industry.

Without screens or speakers, no music or movies to copyright.

In other news, computers and the internet allows content-producers to bypass content-distributors and self-publish content.

</comment><comment><USER10> There _has_ to be an explanation for this besides utter incompetence.

<comment><USER11> Conflict of interest, perhaps?

<comment><USER4> If you pay a man 100,000 for a month of work, that man will produce any answer to any question.</comment></comment></comment>


Moving FirefoxOS into Tier 3 support - <AUTHOR> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.platform/gF-kiJV21ro/qJRk1B-KAAAJ <comment><USER2> It kind of sounds like Firefox OS is being put on the back burner like SeaMonkey and Thunderbird were in the days when they were still supported but clearly not as important as Firefox.

So being created by a nonprofit organization didn't in fact save FFOS from having to achieve market success in order to keep it going.

At the very least users that bought a FFOS phone are to be without any kind of support ever appearing and at worst users of the code (Panasonic, H5OS and probably some Routers, HDMI Sticks, etc.) are becoming second class citizens which will lead to them lagging behind Firefox like Thunderbird and K-meleon have.

<comment><USER3> I love some of Mozilla products, but having seen the failure of packaged WebApps for Symbian from inside and how WebOS went, I never understood how could FFOS have any other future.

Even ChromeOS is an US phenomenon, where the majority actually wipe it to install GNU/Linux over it.

<comment><USER2> The fundamental things hindering adoption of Firefox OS (and WebOS for that matter) had nothing to do with its platform being Web based.

It didn't help when it came to reviews but even if it had been more like BlackBerry OS it would've faced the same adoption problems. Maybe going the route of Amazon's Fire OS could've worked for them assuming they could better compete with Google's Play Store than what Amazon is.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Time to focus!</comment>


D as a Better C - <AUTHOR> http://dlang.org/blog/2017/08/23/d-as-a-better-c/ <comment><USER2> I tinkered with D a bit (along with Nim, Dart, and C as a comparison) while writing a Clojure interpreter.

D seems to be a nice language, but I found the editor integration wasn't the best. I also found it annoying that the docs used `auto` all the time, so you could never figure out the right type annotations for their APIs (e.g. I want to call the foo API and return its value from my method, but the docs all use `auto` to refer to its return value, so I don't know how to annotate my method.)

I liked Nim better in almost every way but one: the compiler was fickle and would just fail silently sometimes.

<comment><USER3> (Disclaimer: one of the Nim core devs here)

Happy to see you paint Nim in a (sort of) positive light, I hope I can help with this one negative.

> I liked Nim better in almost every way but one: the compiler was fickle and > would just fail silently sometimes.

Can you give some examples and elaborate on what you mean by "fail silently"? Did you at least get a segfault?

<comment><USER4> Since it's already brought up in this thread, I recently had (another) look at nim and was a little disappointed too.

It's been a while, but as I recall, on Windows - it was difficult to find a supported way to output Unicode on the console in a sane, portable way (write utf8 nim source code, get wide strings in Windows console and utf8 under eg Linux) - and I think I also had some problems getting off the ground with statically linking sdl2 (again on Windows).

The build/package/config system appear to in a bit of flux?

[ED: and I think there were old open issues and forum posts for both problems, hence no new bug reports...]

<comment><USER3> Indeed there are some bugs with unicode output[1]. Just to be clear the standard way to output anything to the console is `echo` (similar to Python's `print`).

It seems that the progress on that issue has stalled. It's unfortunate but we do have limited man-power and rely on the community to help us out, this does mean that at this stage it helps if you don't mind getting your hands dirty with potential bugs.

Unless one of us are directly affected by a bug, or we see a large number of users affected by it, it's unlikely that we will focus on it. Not much we can do there sadly. I hope you can understand.

Regarding static linking I would say that it's challenging for most languages. Especially on Windows. If you pop into our IRC/Gitter channel[2] though I'm sure somebody would help you out. You can also probably get pretty far by asking C users for help.

Regarding the build system, perhaps you are referring to the fairly recent addition of NimScript? I think that has stabilised by now. But if you've got any specific questions about it then feel free to ask them.

1 - [https://github.com/nim-lang/Nim/issues/2348](https://github.com/nim- lang/Nim/issues/2348)

2 - [https://nim-lang.org/community.html](https://nim-lang.org/community.html)

<comment><USER4> As I'm now on my laptop with access to the two simple programs; for text output:

      import encodings
      var hello1 = convert("Hellø, wørld!", "850", "UTF-8")

      # Doesn't work - seems to think current codepage is utf8.
      var hello2 = convert("Hellø, wørld!", getCurrentEncoding(), "UTF-8")

      # Outputs correct text:
      echo hello1
      # Outputs corrupted text:
      echo hello2

(And simply outputting an unconverted string fails, like hello2 does).

As for the linking problem I had, the main issue is that it seems to be harder than it probably should, to get started with the GUI-programming with nim on windows. The following code works, _provided_ one manually obtains sdl2.dll (and sdl2.lib for static linking) - however, even with static linking flags (no errors), the resulting exe still depends on the presence of sdl2.dll:

      import nimx.window
      import nimx.text_field
      import nimx.system_logger

      proc startApp() =
        var window = newWindow(newRect(40, 40, 800, 600))
        let label = newLabel(newRect(20, 20, 150, 20))
        label.text = "Hellø, wørld!"
        window.addSubview(label)

      runApplication:
        startApp()

With sdl2.dll (and .lib) in the same folder both of these work:

nim --threads:on --dynlibOverride:SDL2 --passL:SDL2.lib c -r win.nim

nim --threads:on c -r win.nim

but both fail without sdl2.dll present (ie: the "statically" linked exe still depends on dynamically loading sdl2.dll).

And there's so far no easy way of getting a "supported" sdl2.dll to go with the nim compiler - as far as I can tell, neither "nimble install sdl2" or "nimble install nimx" provide a way to get the sdl2.dll and/or C source code to compile it.

But perhaps managing DLLs and such is considered to be out-of-scope for nimble/nim package manager for now.

<comment><USER5> Ha, your comment was my first introduction to Nim but it looks interesting so I "brew install nim" and tried your test (thanks!) with "nim c test.nim && ./test" on macOS and my results is the opposite of your: hello1 is garbled while hello2 works.

I bit of googling found the next steps "nimble install minx" but for compiling your win.nim example I had to use "nim --noMain --threads:on c -r win.nim" but the result worked. However AFAIK, there's no official way to make statically linked binaries on the latest macOS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> D is betting hard on memory safety, and apparently system programming

honestly i think, had they gone in the direction of D as a better Python, and application development, they would have made bigger wins (in terms of popularity) ... better tooling, better ide, refactoring, better GC, better libraries ... better faster programs

<comment><USER7> The better Python market isn't an easy one to crack because its a bit crowded. Go (despite its perceived and real faults) has succeeded in this space by delivering better GC, good libraries, static typing and faster programs. Python itself is improving rapidly, for example with the addition of Type Hints. Its pretty difficult to be a better Python in 2017.

The better C market, on the other hand, hasn't seen any real contender other than C++ gain traction for decades. Rust is trying now and it could get there, but its still a massive opportunity.

<comment><USER8> I really really don't been to pile on Python... but every time I've had to interact with it I've been shocked at how slow it is compared with C or C++. I tend to write scientific code to process datasets in the range on 10Gb, for simple operations Python code can take hours as opposed to just taking minutes or seconds in C.

I'm sure it's possible to write more highly optimized code in Python, but it never seems to be the case with the code bases I've worked with. With my own code (a few years ago now), I spent significant time optimizing and the final result was something that was still significantly slower than C/C++. Overall, for my work, I couldn't see an advantage.

Am I just doing it wrong? Currently Go seems far more appealing to me and I've enjoyed using it (maybe I should also try Rust).

<comment><USER9> Python is a high-level interpreted language, and C/C++ are low-level (even compared to other) compiled languages. While you might be able to optimize your Python code to run faster than it does now, it's never going to match the performance of C/C++, nor is it intended to.

Go will be a significant speedup over Python, but likely won't quite match the speed of C/C++ for most tasks. Then again, the ease of development in Go will likely be noticeably better than in C or C++. Rust could potentially match the speed of C++, but it's a much more complex language than Go, so it will take some time to master. (Personally, having spent a large amount of time programming in Rust, I find myself more productive than in Go due to the powerful abstractions present in the former and lacking in the latter, but conventional wisdom is that this won't be the case for most people, and it certainly won't be when you're first learning Rust).

EDIT: Anecdotally I've heard that D is a nice language, but I have no experience with it, so I can't comment on how productive it is or how fast D code will run.

<comment><USER10> You can easily get best of both worlds with Lisp derived languages.

<comment><USER11> It's been my understanding that Lisp and its relatives aren't designed to compete against C for speed either. Is this wrong?

<comment><USER12> "How to make Lisp go faster than C" (2006) [http://www.iaeng.org/IJCS/issues_v32/issue_4/IJCS_32_4_19.pd...](http://www.iaeng.org/IJCS/issues_v32/issue_4/IJCS_32_4_19.pdf)

And these figures aren't using the SBCL Lisp compiler which should currently be faster than the one cited.

You are correct, it wasn't designed to compete against C. And it has a garbage collector. But make the right choices and a compiler like SBCL can produce surprisingly "clean" (optimized) machine language code.

<comment><USER9> C compilers have presumably gotten faster since then as well, of course

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I like Walter's writing. He is very articulate; terse but in a polished way. Relies on you knowing a thing or two first though.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have really been enjoying working with Rust lately. I also enjoyed working with Go prior to that. Maybe I will give D a try too, see if I have similar luck.

I can find things I like and dislike about each of the new languages I try, but it kind of feels like there are a glut of options for me right now, and each one has held mostly positive surprises. Good problem to have: too many new languages that don't give me a headache, hard to choose.

</comment><comment><USER15> Why remove RAII?

It's not fundamentally incompatible with "Better C" semantics, especially if there are no exceptions.

<comment><USER16> RAII requires exceptions to be correct. I hesitate to say it it has RAII otherwise.

Exceptions have two issues:

1\. D exceptions currently require the GC. There is a Pull Request to fix that, but it isn't incorporated yet.

2\. More problematic is the Dwarf exception handling mechanism requires a language specific "personality" handler. This is supplied by the D runtime library. Trying to trick the C runtime library one into working with D isn't a solved problem at the moment.

<comment><USER17> Why does RAII require exceptions? RAII is routinely used in C++ with -fno- exceptions.

<comment><USER16> Because D code may sit in between code that throws and exception and code that handles it. Without EH support, the RAII destructor won't get called when the stack is unwound.

<comment><USER18> Isn't it generally undefined behaviour to have exceptions pass through code that isn't compiled with support for them? I.e. not running some destructors is the least of your worries if an exception hits C/-fno-exceptions/-betterC code.

<comment><USER16> Undefined behavior or not, implementations of languages in gcc and Windows tend to support it, even if the language itself does not. I consider it my job to make this work if at all practical, because users do not like ugly surprises.

I don't know how Rust's RAII deals with exceptions thrown by lower level code. If someone better acquainted with Rust could chime in here, it would be interesting.

<comment><USER19> > I don't know how Rust's RAII deals with exceptions thrown by lower level > code.

Unwinding across an FFI boundary is considered undefined behavior.

[https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered- unde...](https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/behavior-considered- undefined.html#behavior-considered-undefined) last bullet point.

<comment><USER16> That's exactly what I wanted to know. Thanks!

Full D is compatible with foreign exceptions and unwinding. I'll see about making D as Better C also compatible, but I suppose Rust's precedent makes it acceptable to not handle it.

<comment><USER19> No problem!

This isn't my super strong area of expertise, but don't you have to specify _how_ the unwinding works? I believe this is part of the reason why Rust punted; you'd have to specify exactly what kind is supported. (Rust uses libunwind for panics, incidentally.)

<comment><USER16> The _how_ is handled by providing a language-specific "personality" function in the generated exception tables. The D runtime library has one for D. But with D as Better C, I'd have to find a way to make the C personality function work for D.

<comment><USER19> Ah right, makes sense. Thanks :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> "Exceptions, typeid, static construction/destruction, RAII, and unittests are removed"

Thank you guys

"But it is possible we can find ways to add them back in."

Over my dead body

</comment><comment><USER21> Does anyone know what the package management story is like for D? And also what is the D ecosystem like for embedded systems?

<comment><USER10> It is called dub.

[https://code.dlang.org](https://code.dlang.org)

Regarding embedded, there were some progress lately, but still needs some improvements.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I have tried D, loved the language but I feel the ecosystem and environment issues need to be addressed asap. Here are a few inputs (1) setting up env different operating systems eg GNU/linux variants. Compilers ldc, etc are not really easy to setup on all systems.

(2) Memory usage during compile can get out of control resulting in mid-build crashes if sufficient memory is not available.

(3) Setting up of a simple http server should be made simple. (ideally the way Go allows to convert any regular Go program to a http server)

<comment><USER23> High memory usage could be cursed by Ctfe code. There is an existing project to improve the Ctfe interpreter, called newctfe.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> > What may be initially most important to C programmers is memory safety in > the form of array overflow checking, no more stray pointers into expired > stack frames, and guaranteed initialization of locals.

Are there any docs about this anywhere? [http://dlang.org/spec/betterc.html](http://dlang.org/spec/betterc.html) doesn't really describe this stuff.

<comment><USER24> It is not described in the betterC page as these features are not new for D. The betterC page only describes the differences versus the full D feature set.

Documentation for the individual features mentioned:

[http://dlang.org/spec/function.html#safe- functions](http://dlang.org/spec/function.html#safe-functions)

> array overflow checking

[http://dlang.org/spec/arrays.html#bounds](http://dlang.org/spec/arrays.html#bounds)

> guaranteed initialization of locals

[http://dlang.org/spec/type.html](http://dlang.org/spec/type.html) [http://dlang.org/spec/declaration.html#void_init](http://dlang.org/spec/declaration.html#void_init)

> no more stray pointers into expired stack frames

DIP1000 describes D's scoped pointers approach to memory safety - [https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/DIPs/DIP1000.md](https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/DIPs/DIP1000.md). This is work in progress and the document doesn't reflect latest state of things. Conceptually, scoped slices/pointers/references are similar to concept of borrowing that you guys have in Rust.

<comment><USER19> Great, thanks! That makes sense, but it wasn't clear to me in the post.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Is "BetterC" only for DMD? I see that LCD (the LLVM front end) also appears to have "\--betterC" flag.

</comment><comment><USER26> I love to see someone prove D as a Better C by porting the "small" sqlite 124K line of C code to D and run some benchmark/test code against it.

I used to work on OO database engine that handles billions of records.

I end up rewriting/overloading my own new/delete and redesign everything how data is load/store around it. Shorten the open/close document time from hours to seconds for large documents.

Basically, one can easily mmap billions of records directly into data structures accessible by C API easily in a few ms. One can dispose billions of records also in a few ms. I saw similar design patterns from the sqlite code base.

Language with memory safety (GC) design in mind won't allow anything like that as far as I know.

I love to see some D experts prove me wrong.

<comment><USER27> Could you recommend some resources on these techniques?

<comment><USER28> [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45972/mmap-vs-reading- bl...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45972/mmap-vs-reading-blocks)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Funnily, the D code looks more verbose than the C code.

<comment><USER24> Yes, in this example, but once you start looking at more interesting pieces of code it becomes close to impossible for C beat D without heavy use of macros on the code readability front. Check the runnable examples on the front page - [http://dlang.org/](http://dlang.org/).

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> D is one better than C, but K goes all the way to 11.

<comment><USER31> (This is a slightly funnier joke than it may appear at first glance, because as well as being the name of another programming language K is in fact the 11th letter of the alphabet.)

<comment><USER32> M is 2 steps ahead of K

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> If I'm writing C, it's usually a small module or algorithm that I link into another language. Since D is supposed to be in gcc now, I wonder if it's reasonable to start including D code in e.g. Perl or Ruby or Haskell libraries.

The great thing about C is once you write it, you never really have to worry about the language changing 15 years down-the-line and breaking your code. The GNU version might have a similar property, since GNU tools stay around for a long time.

</comment><comment><USER20> Now we need another flag to enable a better Java mode. By default D is in better C++ mode.

<comment><USER27> How about betterC# instead? Given that C++/CLR is a thing, I imagine that it would be possible to get D working on it. JVM is a bit more limited in what it allows vs. CLR. For instance, C# has the unsafe keyword that allows pointer arithmetic, which would correspond to @system in D. @safe D would correspond to the normal C# behavior on that front.

Probably a lot of work though and I'm not sure why anybody would bother.

<comment><USER34> D already is and has been (better C#) when taken as a language. No need for a command line flag.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35>
      int main(char** argv, int argc) {

Really? :-)

<comment><USER16> How embarrassing :-)

But it doesn't affetc the opertaion of the prorgam (I did test it).

Edit: fixed it</comment></comment>


Show HN: An Interactive Info-Graphic of 100 Years of Great Films - <AUTHOR> http://www.edwardmarks.com/

<comment><USER2> It's a pity this isn't web based as well.

</comment><comment><USER3> Love the creative use of pinch zoom</comment>


What India is doing to fight Covid-19 - <AUTHOR> https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/pm-modi-address-on-coronavirus-live-updates-rumours-about-pending-national-lockdown-false-say-pmo-sources-1657548-2020-03-19#60184 <comment><USER2> US/Japan/Germany are leading the World in developing Vaccine for #COVID2019 while India is struck with #CowUrine and #JanataCurfew</comment>


Decentralization Roundup for 2017 - <AUTHOR> http://clutchofthedeadhand.com/roundup-2017/ <comment><USER2> None of these technologies will disrupt big tech. They're niche things that, while awesome, appeal to techies and people being censored. To stop conglomeration of big tech, you need big tech businesses that refuse to or are not allowed to merge with Google, Facebook, etc. Legislation around this is interesting because these are not technically anti competitive monopolies, and you don't want to overly restrict the market by accident.

This is a neat summary of decentralized tech, but the opening paragraph is a red herring.

<comment><USER3> > None of these technologies will disrupt big tech.

Famous last words.

Seriously though, this is the kind of thing people said about PCs, Microsoft, Linux, the iPhone, etc. (And today, about machine learning, blockchains, and VR.)

It's nearly impossible to tell what will disrupt the world, but typically it's the kinds of things that bring back the balance of power. All of these things are enablers, and allow your 3-person startup to innovate in spaces with huge powerful competitors.

<comment><USER4> True, but also a safe statement. Most high-risk revolutions / startups / ventures fail. It is vanishingly unlikely that any of these projects will see widespread adoption and success. So you can just say "that will never work" to everything and be right most of the time.

Of course, VCs make their money by occasionally finding the one that breaks the mold. Picking winners is hard.

<comment><USER5> Correction: Most VC-backed startups fail.

But that's beside the point. You can't make the argument that "most will fail" and conclude that "this category of tech will never bring success to any company". Fallacious nonsense if I ever heard it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Brave is truly an underdog to me. When it was first launched, I thought it would not last long - another competing browser? Why would a VC invest in it? Because of Brendan Eich (he is extremely bright but I did not see how one could market yet another browser focus on privacy)? I am surprised with the direction the project has taken since though.

<comment><USER7> It's also a browser that allows its users, if they opt-in, to get a cut of the advertising revenue to view high quality, relevant ads that respect privacy.

<comment><USER6> Yeah this is actually quite an unique business direction. There is also a possibility to do computation (like mapreduce) via ads - something I have been thinking for a long time. I heard about mining bitcoin that well too as an attack...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It is worth noting Framasoft's efforts in this area. Plans for 2018-2020: [https://contributopia.org/](https://contributopia.org/)

<comment><USER9> I have them on a list to follow up on! Would love to read more from them.

This was my pinned Tweet for a long time: [https://imgur.com/a/0hneI](https://imgur.com/a/0hneI)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> What has happened to ZeroNet? I always thought it was closest to a p2p upgrade to the Web without reinventing the wheel and with an end-user focus.

<comment><USER11> Seriously. Not even a mention of ZeroNet means the author didn't obviously do a through research on the subject.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why does everyone leave indieweb out from all of these lists?

[https://indieweb.org](https://indieweb.org)

</comment><comment><USER13> I had a brief look at the websites this page links to, and some of them fail to mention what they're about.

Blockstack tells me their token sale has ended. But what the hell is blockstack and why should I care about its token sale? Matrix is an open network for secure communication? What does that even mean to regular joe?

</comment><comment><USER14> I really like the positive vibe of this article.

</comment><comment><USER15> i'm tentatively excited about what the internet might look like in 5-10 years. there's plenty to worry about -- surveillance, balkanization, censorship -- but also genuine cause for hope for something (or many things) new and better for the internet.

also, urbit is some truly mind-bending stuff. i've spent a couple of hours reading docs and watching scattered videos and think i only sort-of get it. it got me to finally read mcluhan, though!

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm truly truly hoping that Secure Scuttlebutt or Patchwork or some incantation of SSB becomes our new browser for shopping, tweeting, search, news... I know it has a long way to go, but give it 5 years...

We must break up with the browser.

<comment><USER17> Please don't use uppercase for emphasis. This is in the site guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

<comment><USER16> sorry about that dang - fixed.

<comment><USER17> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> 1) Ask yourself if these technologies are decentralized but also distributed

2) I've tried to have an open mind on urbit enough to watch some of Yarvin's talks, but I'm not convinced after reading pushcx's comments on it being a form of underhanded digital feudalism : [https://lobste.rs/s/z5j1hq/urbit_2017#c_hcnnbm](https://lobste.rs/s/z5j1hq/urbit_2017#c_hcnnbm)

3) This 'roundup' is written by an anonymous person - it's worth reading his/her about page to understand their biases: [http://clutchofthedeadhand.com/about/](http://clutchofthedeadhand.com/about/)

</comment><comment><USER19> Filecoin raised $205m, not $257m. And at $205m it's not record breaking either, as the standard record was $230m when the Filecoin sale started.

<comment><USER7> _Today, the ICO ended with approximately $205.8 million raised, a figure that adds to the $52 million collected in a presale that included Sequoia Capital, Andreessen Horowitz and Union Square Ventures, among others._

"$257 Million: Filecoin Breaks All-Time Record for ICO Funding": [https://www.google.com/search?q=filecoin%20ico&ie=utf-8&oe=u...](https://www.google.com/search?q=filecoin%20ico&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> OpenBazaar should be mentioned as well. Decentralized marketplace.

</comment><comment><USER21> We're also working on decentralized/P2P tech as well, currently storage+computation+ledgers+DAGs are covered pretty well in the article, but CRDTs are also a must for most projects: [https://github.com/amark/gun](https://github.com/amark/gun) . The article seemed to mix in some blockchain/cryptocurrency projects as well, but seemed out of place (for instance, if they were mentioning those projects, why not also Ethereum?).</comment>


Into the Bewilderness - <AUTHOR> http://www.damninteresting.com/into-the-bewilderness/ <comment><USER2>
      I have just been reading Charles Buonaparte's [sic] two last volumes;
      uncommonly dry and disgustingly crammed with nomenclature!

In the early 19th century too, overuse of jargon was met with derision.</comment>


Starting and self-funding a software business in Eastern Europe at the age of 23 - <AUTHOR> https://hackernoon.com/starting-and-self-funding-a-software-business-in-eastern-europe-at-the-age-of-23-c13d3ea4beb5 <comment><USER2> > The economy is not developed, making it extremely difficult to convince > anybody to buy anything you try to sell them. People are pessimistic and > desperate, most of the rich make money through corruption and criminal > activities. There is little support or financing for running a legitimate > business. Talent is scarce. There is nothing to compete over and nobody to > compete with on a local level.

Away with the violins already. Bulgaria may not be entrepreneur friendly or corruption free, but it is not a misery cesspool (source: my friends there).

> Unlike the people I met in the Silicon Valley, only a handful of our tech- > oriented students had participated in hackatons, contributed to open-source > software, had started a personal blog or answered questions in online help > communities such as StackOverflow.

This is classical Silicon Valley fetichising. Some wannabe entrepreneurs have it too, here in Belgium. But if you want that mindset, you better look at the rest of the ideology that comes with it. Personally I want no part in it.

Nevertheless, the rest of the post shows that it is in fact _easier_ to start a business in Bulgaria. The relative immaturity of the tech scene means it's actually much easier to make a splash and find opportunities. Better be self- taught in the land of opportunity then well-schooled in a saturated market.

And at the end of the day, that's also what entrepreneurship is: doing your own thing, with no one holding your hand.

<comment><AUTHOR> > Bulgaria may not be entrepreneur friendly or corruption free, but it is not > a misery cesspool

I absolutely agree with your opinion. There are companies like Telerik (acquired by Progress Software) and Chaos Group which have earned our country a formidable reputation on the global tech scene and it's relatively easy to get recognized. The overall ennvironment is good too - the country has grown a lot since it became member of the EU. Despite all this, it doesn't have the extremely competitive atmosphere, the "evolve or die" mindset of the more developed markets. There is nobody who's going to push you out or take you over. Personally I think such type of atmosphere would have let us grow much faster and innovate quicker.

> Nevertheless, the rest of the post shows that it is in fact easier to start > a business in Bulgaria.

I'm not implying the opposite. It's easy to start a run-of-the mill software development outsourcing business and sustain it, but with such "immature tech scene", it's very difficult to evolve it in something bigger, and that's a big problem.

p.s I'm the author of this article

<comment><USER3> I'am an ex ChaosGroup employee and I can tell you that if there's one thing I learned while working there, it's that all these constraints are in your mind. You can find talent here. You can create a product here and sell it worldwide and be successful. You can be competetive or better than your western competition. In some ways, doing this is even easier than in the west. My view is that in order to be greatly successful, you need 3 things, no matter in what part of the world you happen to be:

1\. Great idea.

2\. Great timing.

3\. Lots of work.

(besides the companies you listed, I could also mention coherent-labs.com, which are also global leaders in their market).

<comment><USER4> I don't live in EE (and maybe I'm naive about this), but shouldn't it actually be easier to find great talent if you put in an effort?

I mean, there are great people in pretty much in every country, and if the alternative is, say, (boring) outsourcing development work, shouldn't you be able to convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great place to work, etc?

<comment><USER5> > convince people with above average (local) pay and offering them a great > place to work

With hardly any VC money around, you don't really have a way to pay for those.

<comment><USER4> Nonsense. You'll make plenty of money by actually building something people will pay for. You know, a product can actually make money without raising VC?

<comment><USER5> I agree, but then you have to bootstrap with your savings, which means you definitely won't be paying above average wages and renting nice offices etc (which is what I was replying to).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Eastern Europe is state of mind, not a geographical location.

It just boggles my mind why a young person (like the article author) would choose to think in such a lazy manner and beat that narrative to death -- corruption, local economy, the struggle to run legitimate business, etc.

With all due my respect and w/ the risk of being downvoted -- that is BS; and completely opposite of the SV mindset.

It just shows that the author haven't been exposed to the actual environment (i.e. not the university) in Bulgaria -- there are numerous large-scale companies w/ strong regional presence, as well various small outsourcing shops and at least 5 co-working spaces, where you can find lots of very capable people working in very healthy environments; anecdotally, for the last ~13 years I haven't heard even one founder/c-level exec of being asked to pay anything under the table.

<comment><AUTHOR> > Eastern Europe is state of mind, not a geographical location.

Author here. Perhaps I put a little bit too much drama in the classic Eastern European issues. I'm not complaining, I do acknowledge the advancement of Bulgaria's economy (it's definitely not like the 90s as far as the narratives go), but I'm not very satisfied with the competitiveness of our country on the global scene. Take Singapore for example - it's more deprived than Bulgaria in numerous aspects, yet it is one of the technological powerhouses of Asia. I'm not focusing on the problems; I'm focusing on what could be improved and leveraged from the current situation.

> ...there are numerous large-scale companies w/ strong regional presence, as > well various small outsourcing shops...

True, but for how long have the co-working spaces been around? Around 5 years. Healthy companies? Since we joined the EU (~10 years). All the companies before that period (Sciant, Telerik, Chaos Group etc.) were made of a bunch of extremely talented young people willing to work almost for free in order to gain reputation and recognition from outside. Plus, the working conditions you mentioned apply only for no more than 20,000 people employed in the tech industry in Bulgaria. The majority of the population is in survival mode.

There is much to be improved.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> > only a handful of our tech-oriented students had participated in hackatons, > contributed to open-source software, had started a personal blog or answered > questions in online help communities such as StackOverflow

It's Eastern Europe, so those even marginally competent who haven't left are employed for peanuts in outsourcing centers, working on brain-numbing projects 9-5 or even 8-6. Ain't nobody got time for that.

<comment><USER8> It depends, there are quite a number of exceptions. Yeah, if you're going to get yourself into a farm-like outsourcing company as a fresh CS graduate then you'll have a pretty numb programming life in front of you. But there are also lots of start-ups/small companies which do really interesting stuff (some of them have been acquired by Western companies for quite a lot of money or have grown into "middle" companies).

I for example have started doing Django-based projects back in 2006, me and my other programmer co-worker were at the time I think the only Django programmers in our Eastern European country. We had also done some quite cool map mash-ups. But pretty soon after that people around us also started doing Ruby stuff, Plone/Zope (maybe not so cool, but interesting nonetheless), we had a local site that had done street photos the same as GStreetView 2 or 3 years before Google started covering our streets, some Information Retrieval/AI projects, it was not all a technological desert. And in recent years things have started becoming even more dynamic, but I have to admit I stopped paying that much attention to the local IT scene.

But, yeah, Eastern Europe (and Europe in general, with the possible exceptions of London, Berlin and maybe Dublin) will never get even close to the "feeling" one gets as a programmer in SV. In my mid- to late 20s I was pretty well aware of that I and was kind of let down, I was feeling that I was losing out by me not being in SV, but now, that I've grown a little older, I feel like I didn't lose that much by staying here.

<comment><AUTHOR> > But, yeah, Eastern Europe (and Europe in general, with the possible > exceptions of London, Berlin and maybe Dublin) will never get even close to > the "feeling" one gets as a programmer in SV

That's exactly the thought that hits me every morning I wake up. That "feeling" that you're in the right place and in the right time to build some truly revolutionary technology. I hope that I start getting this feeling here, in Bulgaria, soon. Otherwise I'll have too many reasons to emigrate for a few years.

<comment><USER9> > That "feeling" that you're in the right place and in the right time to build > some truly revolutionary technology.

How many of the people in SV have that 'feeling' yet are completely wrong? Or... maybe a better question - how many actually build that 'truly revolutionary technology'?

There's a chance you'd get such a great 'feeling' every morning you wake up in SV, but there's more chance you can have an impact on the lives of people in your country by working with others and expanding the pool of opportunity right there.

You're in a position to help _create a revolution_ in your geographic area, vs just sharecrop on someone else's revolution plantation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Fortune cookie: a niche IT job in Eastern Europe will, with high probability, grant you the best life standards available worldwide.

<comment><USER8> A great number of my Romanian programmer friends have already started to realize this and have stopped emigrating to other European countries.

Yeah, moving to a place like London would most probably get you 2 or maximum 3 times the salary you are now getting, but you'd also have to pay rent which is 8 to 10 times higher in London, going out is outrageously expensive (7 pounds for buying a beer in a pub after a day's work is pure robbery), the general geographic area is quite nice around these parts (we have mountains, seaside, nice rivers for fishing), all in all they're doing quite ok. They won't ever be able to buy a $100,000+ car, a small boat or a small air-plane, like I see many of the SV engineers doing, but that's not that huge of a sacrifice to make. What's letting me down, personally, and what would convince me to finally take the plunge and emigrate to a Western European country is the health and the education system, which right now is in shambles in Romania (and I guess in Bulgaria, too).

<comment><USER11> Private health care is very neat and relative to your paycheck it's as affordable as in the Western world

<comment><USER7> The cult of and preference for private and premium health care services in Central/Eastern Europe are going to backslash terribly in couple of decades. Everything works well as long as the only contributors and users of it are young, healthy, employed people. Then those private health providers and insurers will simply disappear or bankrupt, and people will end up with disintegrated public healthcare if only they will be eligible for it at all.

<comment><USER12> The current state of things is not perfect, and the private healthcare probably has indeed the inherent problem you're describing, but it is also maybe the only thing that keeps the bulk of our medical doctors from emigrating to richer parts of Europe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> 1\. Opportunities are often global, and location doesn't matter as much if you can sell something via the internet.

2\. One big advantage of Bulgaria which is often overlooked, if you do make it: the corporate tax rate is 10%. Meaning you get to keep most of your profits.

> Most of the rich make money through corruption and criminal activities

Is this the case? Could you give an example?

<comment><USER11> Generalizing it as "most" is definitely not a sign of a realist's view. Most of them reap profits from low wages and the open EU market. Others get oversized government contracts funded by EU funds and a large part of them do it with corruption. Finally there are some but not that many "no-go" markets which are a special interest of the local and Russian oligarchs and their lobbying kills the competition. Romania did a relatively good job in their judicial reform, but Bulgaria lags behind a lot on that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> >> The economy is not developed, making it extremely difficult to convince anybody to buy anything you try to sell them

You easely get the same thing on the opposite end. In countries where people are used to buy a lot of stuff, people are constantly bombarded with advertisements and drivel.

In a poor country, it is hard to convince anybody that stuff you sell is good. In a rich country, it is hard to make people buy your stuff, even when they know it is good enought.

<comment><USER14> Ok, find a medium rich country. Got it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> > Unlike the people I met in the Silicon Valley, only a handful of our tech- > oriented students had participated in hackatons, contributed to open-source > software, had started a personal blog or answered questions in online help > communities such as StackOverflow.

The overwhelming majority --by a huge margin-- of entrepreneurs have never done any of this.

Your perception is skewed by reading HN and following the Silicon Valley "culture". That isn't at all a reflection of the majority. In Silicon Valley and in politics there are certain things you might have to do to signal club membership.

In the case of starting and running a business none of the items you list are a necessary part of success at all. I know people who are doing multiple millions of dollars a year in revenue who have never gone to hackathons, contributed to OSS, started a blog (that one is particularly funny) or spent time answering questions on SO.

The shadows you are looking at are not reality.

Note: Before anyone thinks that's an insult, google "Plato cave" and read it.

</comment><comment><USER13> Bulgaria has low income tax, but a monsterous social security, EI and pension payments as is with most formerly red countries.

This gives self employed people, or people leaving their profits on a company account an ennormous, unfair advantage

<comment><USER16> What values are we talking about? From a few sites, it seems ~31% (employer + employee), which doesn't seem that high relative to other European countries.

<comment><USER13> Even today, that 31% rate + 10% income tax, + other stuff can easily halve your income.

<comment><USER16> Yeah, well, as a Portuguese I'm paying 35% in SS contributions, plus more than 10% in income tax if one earns more than 920€/month, so I feel your pain.

It wouldn't really bother me if so much of it wasn't wasted, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Bulgaria has number of advantages for starting software business which sells globally.</comment>