Show HN: HopOn – Simple and Social Way to Book Travel - <AUTHOR> https://www.hopon.com/

<comment><USER2> Social/group travel booking services like these have always interested me, and this one in particular looks really slick, but they all suffer from the same, major, challenges: customer acquisition costs and timing.

First, potential customers need to find you. And you're competing against big players running national TV ads (if I see that Trivago guy one more time...) and whose addressable market – not to mention resources/revenue – is larger than yours (i.e., their market is Anyone Who Travels as opposed to Those Who Travel in Groups).

Second, even if you are the kind of person who travels with friends somewhat regularly, you're doing it, what, maybe two times a year, three max? Not only do you have to get in front of potential users' faces, you have to do it exactly at the moment (of which you have three) they need you, and once those precious few moments have passed, you've likely lost them. (Or you have to spend a crapton of money to advertise constantly. See above.)

The way to make this a success IMHO is to target businesses. Forget consumers for now. It is really really hard to change behavior one person at a time. It's slightly easier (different kind of challenge) to sell this to the enterprise as a way of driving corporate compliance, where the benefits are clear: (policy compliance + cost savings + simplified booking process) * many trips a year.

<comment><AUTHOR> While what we've built works great for consumer groups, it goes way beyond that. We've also built:

* Small/medium business features ([https://www.hopon.com/why/business](https://www.hopon.com/why/business))

* Features for recurring solo trips ([https://www.hopon.com/why/recurring](https://www.hopon.com/why/recurring))

* The ability to share past trips with friends/colleagues for easy copying ([https://www.hopon.com/why/vacation](https://www.hopon.com/why/vacation))

Give it a shot and let me know what you think!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Love the concept. There is definitely a need for social travel planning. Love that you guys use pyramid and backbone btw ;)

I guess my only criticism is on my initial experience. It feels like a better expedia, nothing more.

The core value of your site is that it lets people plan their trip together. But that's not the impression I am getting when I start using it. Maybe the first step should be: Where are you planning your trip? What for? and Hopon would create a unique URL for my trip and everything I do from there gets saved at that URL. Maybe I can customize that page too, create a Facebook private event (with my hopon trip URL linked on that fb page somehow). Then from there, I can invite friends, etc. Get the idea?

I tried the web version, maybe the ios version is different. Hope this helps!

<comment><AUTHOR> So fundamentally we think we have built a better Expedia, that also happens to have a lot of social features. The core value of the site is that it's a much simpler way to plan a trip than currently exists. If you happen to be traveling with friends or colleagues, you can also invite people and they can customize and book a similar trip in a few clicks. There is a unique url that you can share with all the info on your trip so that people can check it out and decide to join - here's a example: [https://www.hopon.com/triplists/1982?l=26e564b1e19b85ecf8106...](https://www.hopon.com/triplists/1982?l=26e564b1e19b85ecf81068fe3297bb51e5c9a42f390e2ae5ecfed43f)

<comment><USER3> Gotcha. Looks great. Should get that page created right after the GET STARTED.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> So, as others have said, nice UI. Seem to be missing iceland air for Norway- Canada, but that could be me looking too far ahead.

What I don't get, is how do you compose group/family trips? Eg. say I'm booking for me, a friend books for his/her family of three etc? Or my brother wants me to order for him and obviously doesn't care about creating a user: I'll just book and pay for two and we'll settle up... did I overlook where I can add travellers and children to "my" part of the booking?

Ditto for booking a trip to a conference where I book for my team/company and want to (have the option to) invite other teams from the same city to join us for travel?

<comment><AUTHOR> Just did a search from Oslo to Montreal, and do see some Iceland air options (see link below). [https://www.hopon.com/add/flight/results#dates=2015-06-10%2C...](https://www.hopon.com/add/flight/results#dates=2015-06-10%2C2015-06-17&airports=OSL%2CYMQ&cabin=economy&passengers=1&one_way=false)

In terms of how to book group/family trips there are a couple ways supported right now, and we're adding more workflow paths regularly:

1) You can invite friends/colleagues who can customize and book their own trips themselves - just click the big red "Invite" button in your triplist and invite the other teams to join you.

2) You can also ask to plan and book travel for a friend/colleague (See Account/Profile/Authorized users - they get an email, add their own password and approve you), then you can book for them using their profile information (you can add their profile info yourself if you want to) and your payment information - perfect for admins/team leaders managing a group of business travelers, or a parent buying for older kids. Booking for children that don't have an account is something we're planning to add. Here are details about how Authorized Users work: [http://support.hopon.com/hc/en- us/articles/201240029](http://support.hopon.com/hc/en-us/articles/201240029)

Hope that helps! You can always reach us directly at firstname.lastname@example.com

<comment><USER4> I'd say that's pushing the network effect a little too hard (only able to book for people with accounts) -- not to mention that you slow down booking to a halt, effectively blocking new users (If I plan a trip with 10 friends, I'll have to wait for all of them to get an invite before I can pay for the trip etc...). I'd strongly recommend making it easy to pay you as much as possible (assuming you take a cut).

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a really good point - we're just trying to make sure that bad actors can't be spammy and create accounts they have access to for lots of people without their approval (hence the approval step). It's very possible that we can find a happy balance between the two, and we are actively looking into it.

<comment><USER4> I'm not really sure what the problem is here: if I can book tickets for people without accounts, then those people won't get spam from you, as you don't have their email address... On the other hand, right now, I can sign up all my friends with their email address through your form (or from my account) -- and by so doing send them an email (even if it is a registration email) -- so you're already allowing me to "spam" my friends/every email address I can think of?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Drop the social bit. Bold the colleagues part.

Once every two years I might book a trip with friends and it's not a big deal. Six times a year I am going to conferences with workers and it's extremely painful doing the coordination. We always end up at different hotels and flights and all that.

The only way I would remember this site is if I had to use it somewhat frequently, and the only way I'll ever use it frequently is if it helps me coordinate work travel.

The social part just sounds... 'icky'. Like you don't have a good product so you have to throw in an old buzz term.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep - "social travel" has earned a bad reputation because previous companies haven't delivered on the promise of being able to easily book travel with friends and colleagues. We've spent the last year and a half building the tool we wish existed for our own personal and work trips - and think we're delivering the goods. Check it out and tell us what we could be doing better!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is one of those rare occasions where the UI looks so good that I feel compelled to organize a trip for my family now. For personal and family trips, the only thing that might prevent me from using it would be the prices for flights. As long as they're comparable to Orbitz, Kayak, etc, I'd much rather book through your app. And as long as you provided clean itineraries and receipts, it seems like a no-brainer for corporate travel.

Are there plans for an Android app?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the comment!

We are plugged into exactly the same systems for flight booking that Expedia, Orbitz, etc use for flights, so our prices are identical in 95%+ of the cases.

Yes - we're planning an Android app, but for now we have a (we think) very responsive and feature-complete mobile web app, in addition to the iOS app and desktop site.

<comment><USER6> Some feedback: the way you invite and share with others via the web interface does not feel that intuitive. For example, I'm having a hard time understanding when and how you split hotel costs with other users. Also, it would be really nice to get an idea of how much the trip will cost in total per person on the trip page.

I'd also echo the suggestion made by the other commenter about having a dedicated page for each trip rather than having to add an itinerary to your own list of trips each time. That page could be more easily shared and could break down costs for each section.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback!

1) Once you create a trip - just click the big red "Invite" button on the right side (desktop site) and you'll get options to invite friends/colleagues by email, share a link where people can see the trip details and decide to join, etc.

2) We just fixed the triplist page so you'll see your cost to book the trip - you ran into an edge case there, sorry!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Looks pretty great!

My experience: installed it but couldn't figure out how to import existing itineraries, and nothing at [https://hopon.zendesk.com/hc/en- us](https://hopon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us), so uninstalled after a few mins.

Best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Importing existing bookings from other sites (tripit style) is a feature that we have been working on for a while. Not quite ready for prime time yet, but we'll get there!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Looks awesome! Why backbone instead of angular though?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Choose Backbone.js mostly because of personal experience in using it beforehand/being comfortable with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> where do you get all the data for planes, hotels from? are you scraping it? do they block it after a while?

<comment><AUTHOR> For flights, we're plugged into exactly the same systems (called GDS's or Global Distribution Systems, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Distribution_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Distribution_System)) that Expedia, Orbitz, etc use for flights. For hotels, we're using the Expedia Affiliate Network right now.

<comment><USER9> can you explain a bit more about the costs of getting data from those sources? How do websites like Kayak get all the price data for tickets, hotels?

How does hopon actually make money, is it from affiliate programs? What affiliate programs are you signed up with?

Seems like these ticket, trip websites are dime a dozen, how do you stand above the crowd?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's actually a fairly complicated business development process - we make money the same way the other travel booking/OTA (online travel agency) sites like Expedia/Orbitz do, but we think our differentiation is the simplicity of the site and social features we've built. If people have a good experience and share the site with their friends, then we will grow organically without a lot of expensive advertising.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Aha Moments When Learning Git - <AUTHOR> http://betterexplained.com/articles/aha-moments-when-learning-git/ <comment><USER2> Epiphany</comment>


How I leaked curl security information and had to release curl sooner - <AUTHOR> https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2018/03/14/gaaaaah/ <comment><USER2> "Oops"

At least they handled it quickly once noticed.</comment>


Amazon 'flooded by fake five-star reviews' – report - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47941181 <comment><USER4> My issue with Amazon reviews is the ease that sellers are able to change the product and keep the reviews. I recently tried to buy a decent pair of USB C headphones. The top two recommended products both had 5 starts with hundreds of verified reviews... for a dvd copy of a classic movie. I've decided I just can't trust Amazon reviews anymore.

<comment><USER5> This always happens with various editions of books too especially for classic books. For example: I want to buy Meditations by Marcus Aurelius but there are so many editions of that book with different authors who translated these books but you'd see the same exact reviews on all of these editions. It is very hard for me in that case to choose the right book.

<comment><USER6> I know what you mean. It took me a while to find the original version of Napoleon Hill's "How to Think and Grow Rich" because everyone and their mother's posted $0.99 versions.

That's why I like Standard Ebooks. It's a website where volunteers transcribe public domain books into high-quality books for various eReaders. A lot of ebooks tends to suffer from poor formatting and grammar issues, but all the books on Standard Ebooks go through a rigorous proofreading process.

The book covers are quite lovely too.

I really like it.

[https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/)

<comment><USER5> This site looks good. Thanks for sharing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A couple months ago, I googled 'whiteboard amazon', clicked the first result, and was taken to a well structured amazon page for a whiteboard that had 5 stars. Looking at it a little closer, I noticed that of the 143 reviews, 143 were 5 star reviews. On top of it, every review followed a similar structure, was made by an account that had thousands of 5 star reviews, and was so beyond the pale obvious fraudulent that I felt the need to email jeff@amazon.

Today I was looking at some vitamins, and I checked every single result for a certain supplement that was 4 or 5 stars and every single one of them ranked D or worse on FakeSpot.

How the fuck does Amazon not know how to deal with this? 100% of reviews coming in for a product on the same day? MAYBE THAT'S A SIGN, AMAZON.

Amazon reviews are worse than garbage now.

<comment><USER8> > How the fuck does Amazon not know how to deal with this?

How do you know they don't, and have via whatever mechanism decided that they make more money if they choose not to?

<comment><USER9> They are trying and failing - my wife is a seller and easily 20-30% of completely valid positive reviews from repeat customers disappear without a trace.. at the same time a racist tyrade of a review from a buyer who has swastika as user avatar is impossible to get rid of ( 5 or 6 tries so far)

<comment><USER10> reading this, feels like ebay is a really nice place to sell stuff.

They might have their own issues, but feels more authentic.

<comment><USER11> Really? I feel selling stuff on ebay has a 1/5 chance get scammed.

<comment><USER12> I don't know what categories you shop there, but I have never been scammed. Often make sure to contact the seller beforehand though.

<comment><USER13> It's easy to get scammed SELLING on eBay. Buying is not much if a problem as you can get a refund easily as a buyer.

<comment><USER14> I sell a huge amount of stuff on eBay (retro computing / gaming items) and have found it to be a really fantastic and friendly community. Perhaps it depends on the items being sold?

<comment><USER15> Probably. You are selling in a niche that scammers likely don't care about. If you were selling a Macbook or iPhone, there'd probably be a lot of shady buyers.

I've bought a ton of stuff on Ebay, but only ever sold a laptop when I wasn't getting any bites on Craigslist. It was a limited-edition Dell laptop, so the buyer was really enthusiastic about it and you could tell he was a normal person and not a scammer.

Fortunately I live in a big city now and have never had issues selling in person via CL/Kijiji.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It's not just the fake reviews that bug me. I can use fakespot to weed through a few of those. The thing that has really made Amazon less usable for me in the last year or so is seeing the exact same product twenty times under different nonsense-word brands. Recalling a recent example, in about a minute I can find the exact same pair of water shoes sold as: gracosy, MAYZERO, LINGTOM, Wonesion, JointlyCreating, Centipede Demon, hiitave, and more. Another one is Belilent, Alibress, SUOKENI, Zhuanglin, Dreamcity, and so on. Same pictures, almost same descriptive text, with only minor cosmetic differences.

Are these different companies that happen to use the same supplier? It's possible, but it could also be one company creating multiple pseudo-brands to game the system. I could probably even find out, but _I don 't care_. The same physical thing shipped for the same price from the same Chinese factory shouldn't show up twenty times. As long as search results are filled with crap, they're useless. It's the combination of fake reviews _and_ this kind of flooding that makes me want to leave and never come back.

<comment><USER17> The store is an absolute mess, even with major brands. The exact same pair of Nikes could be listed in a half dozen separate categories sold by two dozen different sellers at shipping speeds ranging from two hours to two months and prices ranging from $0.06 - $649.58.

You end up having to spend 10x the amount of time down the rabbit hole of different categories, vaguely different product titles, different sizes ("size 10", "size TEN" "10(m)", etc.), and different names for the same color shoe, all to desperately find that low price/size/color combination that drew you in from the search results in the first place.

The store _desperately_ needs moderation to tidy it up. I'm sure the devs are patting themselves on the back for all the extra engagement they are milking out of me, but frankly I'm using the site less and less to the point where I've cancelled my prime membership. The only thing keeping me is milking their free shipping and 3% back card, and only if local alternatives fail me.

<comment><USER18> I let my Prime lapse this year, for similar reasons. Gone are the days when Amazon tended to have medium- to high-quality items. Now it's a 50/50 chance I will get some cheap tat which has been expertly misrepresented by the seller (i.e. photos which make the product look bigger than it is).

I don't miss Prime and I'm not buying much from Amazon and this is fine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I can't pinpoint exactly when it happened, but at some point in the last year or so I completely lost trust in purchasing goods on Amazon.

I've been a Prime customer since Prime launched. I loved it for a decade. It used to be an automatic reflex for me: need something? Type it in Amazon and click buy.

But now I don't trust Amazon search results at all, and when I do purchase I only do it via direct product links from other sites I trust (like Wirecutter or the manufacturer's site). Increasingly I buy direct from the brands websites.

I wanted to drop Prime this year. My wife argued we should keep it because the kids watch a lot of Prime Video. But we've already got Netflix, and with Disney launching their thing I think I'd rather buy that than stick with Prime any longer.

Not sure where Amazon is headed, and I wish the fate of AWS and Whole Foods weren't at least somewhat tied up in the fate of Amazon's retail operation.

<comment><USER20> Find Lock Picking Lawyer on YouTube and his reviews of the locks Amazon recommend. See him open them in seconds. Share videos with wife. She will be with you on cutting the umbilical cord to Amazon after that.

The locks they recommend in 'Amazon Choice' have known vulnerabilities that design solutions were found for many decades ago so the products are essentially naive. If Amazon deliberately set out to hype the most useless locks so you would have your stuff stolen (and have to buy more from Amazon) then they would struggle to do a better job.

Of course the locks come with hundreds of five star reviews even though they can be opened in seconds with low skill attacks.

<comment><USER21> to be fair he opens almost every lock in seconds

<comment><USER22> The point is that the "Amazon Choice" lock is a cheaply made Chinese knockoff of another (much better) lock.

[https://youtu.be/eOJc9OiRN5A](https://youtu.be/eOJc9OiRN5A)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I received an email at least once a month, to an address I used exclusively for Amazon purchases, inviting me to join a website that will reimburse me via PayPal if I purchase products and review them.

I have forwarded the emails to Amazon a couple times explaining that my email address is used exclusively for them making it easier to narrow down who might be sending these emails. They always respond with a warning that my account might be suspended if I partake in such sites.

<comment><USER24> Same here. Cryptic alias on my own domain that I never use for anything else. It's rare though, I get one spam email to that address once every few months now, and it's always shopping/review-related. I've contacted Amazon to ask how, when and with whom they shared my email address and their response was basically "we don't ever, but here's a month of free prime for your trouble".

<comment><USER23> I wonder what you're saying that I'm not, I never managed to unlock a free month of prime.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I wish I kept a link, but there was looking to buy a book on music theory or something similar. One of the books had 13 or so reviews, all glowing. Many were of the form "Exactly what I was looking for!" or "Just perfect!" with nothing more.

Two of them had the same surprising word that made no sense in the context of the sentence: both reviews used the word "goal." Then it hit me: either the directions telling them what to review or in their own attempt to translate to English, the auto-translation picked the wrong synonym, choosing "goal" instead of "score."

<comment><USER26> Yea, and spurious reviews are egregious on other markets such as booking.com, etc.

Booking sites dont just use fake reviews, but also hide or even delete bad reviews. I've personally seen this because I travel a lot.

As much as I dislike Google, they act as a neutral third-party for hosting hotel and restaurant reviews. Amazon howrver wants good reviews on products to make sales.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I never thought it would get that way but I feel more comfortable now buying from ebay from a seller with good feedback. Amazon is such a cesspool of weird sellers. For example I looked for flashes of Godox brand. Listings had "Godox" in the title but when I looked at the listings they were all from different sellers and not from Godox. I think is intentionally misleading by Amazon. As a tech person I sort of understand what's going on but a lot of people trust Amazon and don't understand that Amazon isn't really the seller and does nothing against sleazy listings.

</comment><comment><USER28> One product (power bricks for MacBooks) had over 1000 5 stars, then the 1 star reviews came in where people actually had their power adapters catch on fire. Amazon, or maybe the seller, shut the review/product down. Now, it's back:

[https://www.amazon.com/KUPPET-MacBook-17inch-Compatible- MacB...](https://www.amazon.com/KUPPET-MacBook-17inch-Compatible-MacBooks- Produced/dp/B07P56DJLV/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=Kuppet+macbook&qid=1555375810&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull)

Lots of verified purchases. All the reviews are within the same date range. It doesn't take machine learning or advanced AI to catch this; a simple SQL statement should be enough to flag these. But still, they persist.

<comment><USER29> Ergo, Amazon cannot do Stats/ML/AI/call it what you will. The claims that they have an AI advantage don't pass the sniff test.

<comment><USER30> It's not ML/AI problem. The problem is that Amazon wasn't able to punish counterfeiters financially or legally which in turn may be because they don't have a process to ensure seller identity that is legally traceable. This is equivalent to someone coming to BestBuy, sell to them bunch of fake products and get away with it without a scratch every single time. You wouldn't blame that BestBuy doesn't have AI system, would you?

<comment><USER31> It doesn't actually what the nature of the problem domain itself is, in this case -- you can't solve a problem that you don't want to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I've started using fakespot.com for every purchase from Amazon, has saved me from making a bad purchase more than once.

<comment><USER33> Do they have a plugin? I feel like that would make life a lot easier - <USER2> don't have to go to a second domain, just look at the listing and the plugin puts a big "Don't Buy" banner over it

<comment><USER34> There is a Chrome extension[0] available. I personally find FakeSpot best used to help avoid bad buys -- not to ensure that buys are going to be good (due to adversarial gaming, or FakeSpot itself being targeted).

[0]: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fakespot- analyze-f...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/fakespot-analyze-fake- ama/nakplnnackehceedgkgkokbgbmfghain)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> If you are buying electronics, buy it from Best Buy, Costco, Target, Walmart or another retailer with a physical store. Best Buy matches Amazon's prices and their merchandise is not fake.

<comment><USER36> B&H

<comment><USER37> I've had bad experiences with B&H. I purchased a $1k+ gimbal from them for an upcoming project. I ordered it in advance so that I'd have some time to practice using it. Unfortunately, I delayed using it for a few weeks and when I finally opened the package, it was defective. When I reached them for a refund, they said there was nothing they can do as I was outside the return window. Based on my experiences with Amazon in the past I know I would have had a much better experience if I ordered from them. Regardless, I no longer trust B&H for buying expensive camera gear.

<comment><USER38> I bought a Leica M10 ($$$$) from them, and discovered a defect about a week after the return period expired. They took it back without a fuss.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Reply All did a great podcast in Amazon's recent drop in quality: [https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/124](https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply- all/124)

Highly recommend.

</comment><comment><USER40> I recently ordered a small device from Amazon, it was poor, so I gave it a 1 star rating with a short, negative review.

About a week later, I received an e-mail from the seller (via Amazon's payments communication system) asking for me to delete my review in return for being refunded the total amount, and stating that I could keep the device.

Whilst I didn't take up their offer, I assume many others did which shows how Amazon is 'not flooded with one-star reviews'.

<comment><USER41> I had exactly the same thing happen recently with a light bulb that wasn't nearly as bright as advertised. Seller said they'd refund me, let me keep the crappy bulb _and_ send me a brighter and more expensive bulb for free.

I didn't take them up on this, as it wouldn't be fair for future customers; after all, I'd bought the crappy bulb because there were no bad reviews...

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> I no longer buy from Amazon: batteries, chargers, flash drives/SD cards, any sort of food (or container for food)

essentially only stuff that's completely obvious if it's fake, or if it's too expensive/niche to bother counterfeiting

<comment><USER43> I've read articles of people getting fake HAND SOAP from Amazon. You know, the less than $1/bar soap.

Fake laundry detergent is also a big one.

The fake bar soap has led me to believe that people will make counterfeits of anything they can.

<comment><USER44> You mean like knock-off dove? I mean, soap is pretty easy to make so unless its a knock-off I don't see what you mean by fake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> 52-6F-62 Is it possible there's a gulf between Amazon.com and Amazon.ca when it comes to these issues?

Maybe it's just in what I shop for but I haven't received a single counterfeit item, or come across fraudulent listings.

I've seen my fair share of imitation (and probably trademark-infringing) products and cheap crap, but I try and avoid that stuff.

So my experience has largely been positive—but there's no shortage of horror stories. That seems the norm around this board.

So I wonder is it just worse on the American side? (for reasons of volume or targeted marketing or whatever)

<comment><USER45> I'm in America and I too am confused at all the negative comments about counterfeits. I've personally ordered hundreds of items from Amazon, but never a counterfeit

<comment><USER46> HN is legitimately the only place I've seen this complaint. I really wonder if it's HNs buying practices that are the problem.

<comment> daniel-cussen Well I suppose this comment is HN too from your perspective, but I also thought it was all HN until it happened to me. I was looking for Apple earphones, and found Apple earphones, and ordered them and it all looked great until they showed up, with a little cable tie in a clear plastic bag. And they worked, but when I then ordered Apple earphones off the Apple Apple branded Apple part of Amazon (which took a while to find and is covered in ads of knockoff Apple) I ordered them at the much higher price of $29.99. They arrived packaged in legit Apple trade dress, and I unfolded them from the cardboard packaging which I then used for the first Apple-but-not-Apple-Apple earphones. I first compared the two and sure enough they had minute differences and the Apple-Apple earphones sounded better...hard to say why but noticeably, and were louder at max volume, which is a difficult technical accomplishment. And the mic and buttons worked properly. Plus that packaging was as beautiful as Apple packaging has always been, I regarded it when it was empty as a paper insect that could be pinned to framed insectologist menagerie.

At any rate, I didn't lose much money and got more or less what I wanted, but...

Acting as a basic Joe Consumer I can tell fakes from reals with nothing but a browser, three minutes, and a simple checklist. Why can't Amazon which has a fucking battalion of mercenary machine learning cyborgs do the same a trillion times faster and cheaper and save me the (I can't believe I'm logging on to Amazon to check how much I wasted...) $12.70 I blew buying from "CR Land"?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I reported 4 fake reviews to Amazon on a product I purchased before.

The product page had changed from the old one I originally purchased on to a new one with 4 obviously fake 5-star reviews. I found this when I went to re- purchase the product after it (an eBike) was stolen. The page is here ([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K2VLSX5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_He...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07K2VLSX5/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_HeDTCbV67NR82))

There is a review from me, calling out the fakes and providing detail, and the other 4 that are clear-as-day fakes. The previous product page, which I referenced in my report to Amazon, had numerous high quality, legit reviews averaging around 3 stars with tons of detail.

Amazon has made no changes after my report.

</comment><comment><USER48> I use Amazon a lot but I won't buy expensive brand-name stuff there anymore. Case in point: I am going to buy a Starrett combination square and Amazon has a nice price with free shipping, but I'd bet there is a 50/50 chance I get a counterfeit.

I'd also put your chances of getting a fake $9 Casio watch on Amazon at 50/50.

As a software engineer I kinda sympathize with Amazon -- no matter what system you come up with, people are going to game it. It's a very complex moving target and you will never be able to eradicate all of the scammers. At the same time, I think they could do a lot better than they do today, and I wonder if they actually try.

<comment><USER30> Weeding out fake products is not a software or machine learning issue. It's a _process_ issue and much simpler to solve. You require all your merchants to provide their legally traceable identity. Your agreement should require merchants to put payments on hold when fake product complaints are received with arbitration fees. All big brick-and-mortar shops do this. It would be very hard to introduce fake product in Fred Meyers or Costco by any merchant without financial and potentially legal consequences. Amazon just needs electronic version of that process.

<comment><USER48> The trick is to implement such a process without the overhead the process has at a place like Costco. Keep in mind that Amazon operates in many countries.

There is also significantly more incentive to fake a legal identity for sellers at Amazon than at brick and mortar stores. Even if it costs a million dollars it might still be worth doing -- you might make a lot more than that by the time you get caught.

<comment><USER38> The overhead is exactly what keeps the bad guys out. Without it, the spam and counterfeit problem will continue. Amazon can't have its cake and eat it too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> When buying on Amazon, I'm mostly interested in the 2-4 range reviews; I find this is where people discuss the pros/cons instead of just the pros (5 - <USER3> product ever!1!) and just the worst (1 - it had a defect because I threw it in the pool even though it said don't throw it in the pool and the company doesn't want to reimburse me, never buying from it again yadayada - kind of reviews).

<comment><USER50> Note to self: When writing fake reviews, just make them 4 stars.

<comment><USER51> but if you do that, you'll rank somewhere on page 4 or 5 of the listings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> "Online retail giant Amazon's website is flooded with fake five-star reviews for products from brands it has never heard of, consumer group Which? has claimed."

Took me about 5 times reading that to realize "it" referred to "consumer group Which?"

I think the question mark in the name helped throw me off...

</comment><comment><USER53> I am always starting from bad reviews. Ironically, very often they are the source of the information which makes me buy a product immediately.

E.g. if the book author is "arrogant", or most product problems are coming from hysterical idiots with none of them due to the manufacturer.

<comment><USER54> Yes, I've heard this recommended as a strategy for sellers - leave yourself negative reviews that are clearly not issues with the product.

<comment><USER53> I believe this is pretty hard to fake realistically, plus it goes with the necessity of significantly lowering your own product score, so..

<comment><USER54> Doesn't have to be significant, and it can be done by upvoting those reviews so they rise to the top without leaving any reviews yourself (and I've heard people talk about using this specific tactic). Conversely, I've heard people complaining their competition left negative reviews and/or upvoted their bad reviews to the top.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> My theory is that amazon's new business model is increasingly going to be based on advertising.

Reliable reviews are incompatible with advertising revenue (why else would you have to advertise heavily if your products are really the best).

The same observation may explain the doscountinuation of Amazon Button. Button would reorder the same product/brand over and over again - not compatible with advertising by competitors.

<comment><USER24> Amazon is making money on all sides: ads, "amazon's choice", and when you buy something that will break soon, you buy twice, and Amazon gets their commission twice. So far, I don't see any incentive for them to change anything.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> What bothers more even more is the injection of sponsored ads that ignore not just the keywords you search for, but even the filters like price.

I search for a brand name watch or camera with a price of 300$+ and half of the results are no-name knockoff 25$ watches without even an easy visual way to distinguish them. They just put a very faint "Sponsored" that you have to squint hard to see it.

</comment><comment><USER57> I buy my supplements like vitamins, protein bars and powder from Amazon. The stock mingling and counterfeits is worrying me now. Should I switch to local shops or am i being too paranoid? For non edibles, with all the fake review sites out there, are sites like the wirecutter and consumer report still trust worthy?

<comment><USER58> I bought Schiff's sleep aid from Amazon, and when I compared the bottle with a Costco-purchased one, there were clear differences and an overlaid UPC label.

<comment><USER57> The overlaid label is suspicious. It reminds me of the whole Chinese baby formula crisis. Amazon needs to add rigorous control before someone gets severely ill or even dies. It looks like a giant liability for legitimate sellers and Amazon itself to me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> My cynical nature assumes some Amazon MBA has done the math and concluded that the gain in revenue from Amazon-only brands will exceed that lost from people abandoning the rest. This is based on the _assumption_ that Amazon's Fulfilled By Amazon cobranding program does not allow third party participation for Amazon's in-house brands like Amazon Basic.

In light of that admittedly negative view what's Amazon's motivation to limit fake reviews since it doesn't damage their own brands, albeit at the cost of damaging their brand as a whole.

<comment><USER60> At this point, I trust the Amazon brands less than the knockoffs. Half of the amazon labelled products I've used didn't work well or very long.

<comment><USER59> Really? My experience has been universally positive so far. To be fair to Amazon and maybe I've just drunk too much SV koolaid but I assume there are some very smart people actually working on the two related problems: validating both reviewers and supply-chain members to reduce fraud. It just remains to be seen how they solve the problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> How about simply filtering amazon reviews that are only left by people with a wide variety of expenditure and who spend over $500/year?

<comment><USER36> Even if you add the ability to filter, it won't help unless it's the default. You'll still have a huge number of buyers choosing the product due to fake reviews and driving up the sales numbers. Since they aren't the smartest shoppers, they're also likely to leave their own review and be influenced by the other 5 star reviews.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> The only reviews worth reading on any site are 1 and 2-star reviews. I honestly don't care if someone is happy with a product, I want to know what the problems might happen or what situations it doesn't work for.

I recently paid for a Consumer Reports digital subscription to get reviews for appliances and it's been worth every penny of the very reasonable $35 annual subscription.

<comment><USER63> I disagree. Most 5-star reviews are garbage, but sometimes you find one that goes into great detail about real-world device specs from their own measurements, and even disassemble them and note various upsides and downsides of the design.

And conversely, many 1- and 2-star reviews are also garbage - the most common case is when the reviewer complains about item not being delivered or delivered late, or not what they wanted due to some misunderstanding.

What's really needed IMO is some kind of reputation for reviewers, that is easy to track.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> This is my go to tool when dealing with Amazon reviews: [https://www.fakespot.com/](https://www.fakespot.com/)

99% of products feature a least some of fake 5 stars. Only very good brands don't rely on them, I usually buy from them even if they have 4-star rating.

</comment><comment><USER65> I would pay substantially more than Amazon prices for a store that actually curated their inventory to offer quality stuff instead of a firehose of algorithmically-reviewed trash.

I shop at Amazon only for the selection, not the experience. Not even for the price.

<comment><USER66> If you can handle a fraction of the inventory, you can use a trusted reviewer like [https://thewirecutter.com/](https://thewirecutter.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> They are trying to fix the problem, but the number of scammers dwarfs the number of Amazon employees: [https://blog.dshr.org/2019/04/what-is- amazon.html](https://blog.dshr.org/2019/04/what-is-amazon.html)

That said, Amazon could buy Fakespot or one of its competitors with small change from Jeff Bezos' sofa, and they are clearly doing a better job than Amazon at rooting out fraudulent reviews.

Ironically, Amazon's enforcement was turned against them. Unscrupulous merchants are planting obviously fake five-star reviews on their competitors. Amazon then takes down the framed competitor. Genius!

<comment><USER24> > They are trying to fix the problem

doubt. Amazon has unlimited data on everything, they could fix that if they wanted to. They just have zero incentive to: the sales happen on Amazon's platform, a lot of them use FBA, so Amazon is getting paid.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Not only fake positive reviews, amazon postings are saturated with fake negative reviews and counterfeit and knock-off products (95% of cheap electronics). But it's not an amazon problem, it's a customer problem. Amazon monopolized online market and destroyed other sellers. If they bring order it would lead to honest prices for honest products and would allow other sellers back to the market. Why should amazon do so? It's better for them to forfeit this market than give up a share of it.

</comment><comment><USER68> Star-based reviews basically need to go away. There just isn't any reasonable way to process the information contained in the rating itself. I know that I _always_ think twice about a purchase when there are mediocre reviews, despite knowing all the ways that the reviews could be basically outright lies, because I know I don't plan to spend all the time it would require to actually discern real from fake.

I was thinking about how even simplified systems like thumbs-up/thumbs-down for music don't make sense either. In my car, there is a great way that they could _infer_ what I like: how long is it playing? I essentially will let at least half a song keep playing if I like it, whereas I will quickly flip away from one I don't want. I am _more_ likely to flip to the next song than click a thumbs-down, especially while driving. "Time actually played", perhaps as a percentage of total song length, would probably be a great way to automatically rank my music for me.

And I think it would work for Amazon and other systems too. For example, if a product was purchased and never returned, maybe it doesn't suck. If it's a consumable item that was purchased again, maybe it doesn't suck. We don't need reviews and star ratings to figure this kind of thing out, and it's extremely hard to fake.

</comment><comment><USER69> I once wrote an Amazon review in which I said that the other reviews followed a pattern of manipulation. Amazon deleted my review, and sent me a warning letter : [https://twitter.com/BenKrasnow/status/1106385729435787264?s=...](https://twitter.com/BenKrasnow/status/1106385729435787264?s=19)

<comment><USER70> I'm with Amazon on this one. Reviews are for the product, not to side-talk other reviews. Report the other reviews if there's a problem. Of course they probably aren't likely to do anything even then, but cross chatter between reviews is not a trend they'd want to allow either.

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> I trust the verified reviewers especially those that post pictures of the item. For example if I am buying a computer case and someone posts a review with the case and their system inside and they say the airflow is good and the build experience is great too then that adds a lot more weight than 100 five star reviews.

</comment><comment><USER72> Oh, and the keyword stuffing is horribly obvious and Amazon's antispam team should get in touch with Google's. These product pages should be flagged for keyword stuffing, suspended until fixed and permanently banned for repeat offenders.

It's horrible and extremely user-unfriendly.

</comment><comment><USER15> When I first heard of sites like JD.com and Alibaba, I visited out of curiosity and noped out fast. The UX was horrible, the sites were a jumbled mess, and I'd see the same product marked up at different prices, and a bunch of fake-seeming reviews. "Thank God we have Amazon here", I thought.

Tried searching for bluetooth headphones on Amazon Canada (which has a much smaller selection than the US site). It was almost exactly as I remember the old Chinese ecommerce site. Wall-to-wall rows of indistinguishable products, 500+ 5 star reviews for each, many of which are obviously for other products.

Lately, the Prime app hasn't even been working on my PS3, so it might be time to start moving back to brick and mortar for my purchases.

</comment><comment><USER73> lots of examples of fake reviews on goods that show up in common search results:

e.g. [https://www.amazon.ca/Bluetooth-Headphones-Sweatproof- Compat...](https://www.amazon.ca/Bluetooth-Headphones-Sweatproof-Compatible- Smartphones/dp/B07PG3QXBP/)

clicking through on a reviewer shows, for example, an account with 82 5-star reviews, all posted today, April 15th:

[https://www.amazon.ca/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AFZWITCLSKYQH...](https://www.amazon.ca/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AFZWITCLSKYQHSYAVPNXTZZH2FMQ/)

Seems like posting 82 5-star reviews in a single day should probably trigger some sort of anti-fraud mechanism?

</comment><comment><USER74> Why even bother allowing unverified purchase reviews?

<comment><USER75> I think there can be lots of value in them, but only in the long-form review, where the product is described and evaluated. Aggregating the numbers makes no sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> News at 11.

Seriously? Go hang out at Amazon for a hot second. You'll see:

         1. Fraudulent products
         2. Fake products
         3. Ripoff obvious clones
         4. Fake stores
         5. Fake reviews (5 star AND good 1 star like the bot got mixed up)
         6. Bad of the above mixed in the supply of the "good" legit products
         7. Amazon Piss bottles (0)

Amazon is now, what Walmart was 10 years ago - a scourge and a horror to work at for any length of time. It's no surprise that a company that was to sell off even more underlying ethics would be walmart at their own game.(1) In that, Walmart only has the upper hand because of local stores...

(0) [https://nypost.com/2018/04/16/amazon-warehouse-workers- pee-i...](https://nypost.com/2018/04/16/amazon-warehouse-workers-pee-into- bottles-to-avoid-wasting-time-undercover-investigator/)

(1) [https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on- moloch/](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/)

<comment><USER63> You forgot another category: products that are outright illegal. For example, "oil filters" that are basically silencers, or Glock full auto conversion parts.

[https://smile.amazon.com/JINJULI-Tactical-Semi-Automatic- Cov...](https://smile.amazon.com/JINJULI-Tactical-Semi-Automatic-Cover- Plate/dp/B07Q146R99) (google "Glock FSSG" to see what this actually is)

[https://smile.amazon.com/Filter-Aluminum-24003-Durable- Const...](https://smile.amazon.com/Filter-Aluminum-24003-Durable- Construction/dp/B079KT7NWZ/) (note the reviews and questions on this one)

Now, to Amazon's credit, when you report these, they do take the ones that are unambiguously illegal down. The problem is that they get re-posted under a slightly different title within a few hours.

<comment><USER77> "will this make a .223 lawn mower engine quieter"

O_o

<comment><USER63> To clarify, 1/2"x28 is the standard thread pitch used on most .22 and 9mm caliber firearms for muzzle attachments. In most cases it's a flash hider or a recoil compensator, but suppressors can attach in the same way.

Also, this one is an example of an "ambiguously legal" listing. The thing is, after all, an actual oil filter, albeit a poorly made one. Owning it alongside with a firearm it can attach to would likely constitute constructive possession of an unregistered NFA item, but that's buyer's problem. Although I would imagine the seller can still be sued if it can be proven that they knew how most of their customers are using them (which is evident from reviews), and intentionally designed them for that purpose. But, well, good luck suing a noname Chinese merchant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> After receiving fake items a few times, I just stopped buying from Amazon altogether. Especially now that Amazon collects taxes for my state, it is just easier to go to a brick and mortar store and buy legitimate products in person.

</comment><comment><USER72> Amazon reviews are a huge issue and a huge let down from the platform. I love shopping on Amazon but today, I rarely do it due to 1) not believe any review 2) seeing the same product branded twenty times.

Various teams at Amazon need to do a rewrite of the entire reviews specs and treat them like CC details. It's totally abnormal to find reviews about another product belonging to a former product from the same seller. It's unacceptable to have most of the reviews on new products coming from paid gigs and fakers.

They need to sort this quick – even my mother who barely understands a thing to computers is now wary of Amazon reviews.

</comment><comment><USER79> "ReviewMeta, a US-based website that analyses online reviews, said it was shocked at the scale of the unverified reviews, saying they were "obvious and easy to prevent"."

 _Unverified_ reviews may be easy to prevent by disabling unverified reviews, but then the scam just includes one extra step, having each account reviewing a product purchase the item on Amazon, then reimburse the account. Easy verified purchase.

You also would lose out on actual purchasers who bought it elsewhere than Amazon who would want to leave reviews.

The problem of bad reviews is definitely an unsolved problem, as even if you build in trust mechanisms (and Amazon surely does this already), the scammers will build networks of self-reinforcing bots. You could calibrate the system to heavily discount reviews of reviewers which have any "scam" tags, but then the networks would just take longer to build, leaving legit reviews to build up trust, and then leaving false reviews after having built up that trust. These cat and mouse games will go on a long time.

The same issues happen across every open network where identity isn't verified. As much as I (and others historically) have benefited from pseudonymity, it's definitely being weaponized (Amazon, Facebook, Twitter, etc) to benefit certain entities (companies, governments, etc), and the ultimate result is a loss of trust in the networks at large. I don't know what the solution will be, but the solution will be incredibly valuable.

I've thought about some sort of hybrid account handle system where you have one account that has two handles associated with it -- one, your real-world name, and another your pseudonym, but the single account is verified by real- world ID. As a contributor to the network, you could post as your pseudonym or your real world name, depending on the contribution that you are comfortable making, and as a consumer of the network, you could choose at any time to only view content of the network posted by real-world names, or pseudonyms. This would limit the number of possible astroturfed accounts, but still allow for sensitive discussion of heated matters.

Just throwing the idea out there because the need for some kind of solution to this destruction in network quality is something that affects us all.

<comment><USER80> the problem you'll run into is making sure those "real IDs" are actually real IDs

</comment></comment><comment><USER81> It has gotten awful. Every single time I've searched for a generic product (or even a specific brand + model), I'm inundated with these nonsense branded listings. I'm very close to canceling my Prime membership.

I think the best thing that Amazon has accomplished is pushing other retailers to improve their fulfillment process. Just yesterday, instead of dealing with the endless stream of copycat products on Amazon, I purchased a bunch of running gear directly from Nike and it was shipped in less than 12 hours.

</comment><comment><USER82> Nice to see, that the main stream media takes note of services like [https://reviewmeta.com/](https://reviewmeta.com/) . There is also [https://www.fakespot.com/](https://www.fakespot.com/) . Both services show, how bad Amazons filter for fake reviews really are. I still believe Amazon is basically doing nothing to prevent fake reviews.

</comment><comment><USER83> Amazon needs to disallow unverified reviews. Their current acceptance is a holdover from a time where people were much more likely to have bought a product somewhere other than Amazon. Amazon needed these outside reviews to curate its own offerings and give customers confidence in their shopping choices. That hasn't been the case for a decade now. Amazon should delete all non-verified reviews entirely.

</comment><comment><USER84> As everyone's pointing out, this problem seems to have exploded in the past 1-2 years.

I myself had a few trivial counterfeit purchases (batteries, lightbulbs) and one serious one: a ladder. The rung snapped out from under me, and it was dumb luck that I wasn't seriously injured. Anyhow, it's time to move on. Amazon is moving into advertising, and the convenience no longer outweighs the other costs.

</comment><comment><USER85> The many problems with Amazon reviews are hardly news to most of us on HN, I'm sure. What is noteworthy, though, is to see such a report make the front page of the BBC News site. I think we easily forget just how little public awareness there is of issues that are obvious to us as "insiders" in the tech world. Anything that helps to raise awareness, even just a little, is welcome.

</comment><comment><USER86> I bought some cologne from Amazon, (seller was listed as "Amazon") which turned out to be fake. The scent was wrong, the bottle... except the box which seemed authentic but had the barcode excised with a razor and covered up with a sticker.

When I left a straightforward review, it was taken down with no explanation and no recourse. I called and got a refund, but the fake 5-star reviews are all still up.

</comment><comment><USER87> Forgive me for being naive, but isn't this an easy problem to solve? Amazon tracks shipments, I assume. Couldn't they just create a mechanism where a completed shipment gives the purchaser one allowance for adding a review? This way you can only review if Amazon has verified that you bought the product.

I must be missing something crucial here.

<comment><USER88> How it typically works is the company requests that you buy the product and tells you they will refund your purchase if you leave a 5 star review. On Amazons side it looks like these people really did buy the product. Fake reviewers get paid in free stuff and the company just uses their marketing budget to give stuff away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> I've even been offered free products by a retailer that I have purchased an item from - 'Free Dash Cam' read the email subject line and provided me with all of the instruction with what to do, and a copy and pastable bit of text to use aswell - I reported this to Amazon, and gave them copies of the emails etc too.

</comment><comment><USER90> One useful hack is to use the DuckDuckGo bang command "!fake" to check the fakespot rating for a listing.

If you have DDG set as your default browser you can just prepend "!fake" (no quotes) before the url and get a breakdown on the review authenticity.

(Interestingly sometimes even AmazonBasics products have a bad fakespot rating...)

</comment><comment><USER91> Is there any facet of human society that hasn't been subverted by the relentless pursuit of profit?

Other than heavy-handed regulation (like verifying each and every account as unique), some form of guaranteed minimum income may be the only way to buffer people from resorting to such deceptive tactics in order to get by in the world.

</comment><comment><USER92> This article talks about unverified purchases, but in my experience, a lot of verified purchases are also fake. I have stopped trusting positive reviews and only go through the negative reviews and assess the product.

How to spot fake reviews - They are long, explain the product in detail and similar to other fake reviews.

</comment><comment><USER82> If we can sort out spam emails with Naive Bayes, why can't we sort out spam reviews in similar fashion? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_Bayes_spam_filtering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_Bayes_spam_filtering)

</comment><comment><USER93> Link to the actual report by Which?

[https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/04/thousands-of-fake- custo...](https://www.which.co.uk/news/2019/04/thousands-of-fake-customer- reviews-found-on-popular-tech-categories-on-amazon/)

</comment><comment><USER94> This is why I just pretend 5 star reviews don't exist. I figure all the other reviews are probably legit and look at them. If all the other reviews are 1 or 2 star I'm not going to buy it. If there are 4 star and 3 star reviews it's probably decent.

</comment><comment><USER95> I'm always on the boat of: "The community votes what to read" but I've seen this subject on the HN's home page over and over and over.

Isn't this an old story?

Are people discovering this about Amazon's reviews and upvoting out of curiosity or am I reading HN way too frequently?

</comment><comment><USER96> Fake reviews are common on Airbnb.com as well. New hosts just request their friends to book their house and then pay them back for the same. In this case Airbnb may even benefit (unlike Amazon) since they receive their non- refundable fee when a friend books the house.

</comment><comment><USER44> It's not just Amazon its everything. Companies spend large quantities of money on media control, we all know this. I probably a hand full of media companies in the USA, China, and India that are selling a review control service.

<comment><USER97> Yeah and I feel the bots or human assisted bots are getting more and more sophisticated. Even here on hacker news it feels like there is something less organic than before about posts and comments rankings.

It may be that I am getting old and that the culture has changed but I'm not sure...

<comment><USER44> If I was to setup such a service I would have a simple text bot scanning popular sites for occurrences of my brand name and when a hit occurs it would make an Amazon Mechanical Turk ticket so that workers in Nepal could log a system that cycles accounts to that service so that they can leave a good review to counter the bad one. 10 cents a "counter" review. Why spend a bunch of money for in-organic robo-reviews when you can have real people writing reviews for dirt cheap.

A second service would be to have Americans pressure a site to have detrimental user content removed. For example, if someone starts a thread about how the name of my product was stolen from an indigenous community's recipe, our service would nip that in the bud.

Your brand management department would love us. These services already exist.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> www.fakespot.com is your friend.

</comment><comment><USER99> I check everything on Reviewmeta.com because of this. Wish they a bit better search/categorization though. Awesome site nonetheless, filtering out suspicious reviews to provide a "true rating".

</comment><comment><USER100> 1\. Bots

2\. Click-farms buying clicks from humans in India, Malaysia, countries in Africa, etc.

3\. Mostly, but not all, Chinese distributers and manufacturers offering inducements, bonuses and generally cajoling customers for 5 star reviews.

</comment><comment><USER101> For product sellers it's also very frustrating. Hard to compete against tricks. For sellers the fake reviews are only 1 of many similar problems with fraudsters, trickers, scammers, etc.

</comment><comment><USER102> We can see that the dynamics of ratings are very complicated. It's not about the system's design, but also the load and bias on decisions from the buyer and the seller.

</comment><comment><USER103> If the purchasing base (or potential buyers) believe the reviews to be mostly fake, they may lose trust in the service...

This seems like a problem worth fixing, from Amazon's perspective.

</comment><comment><USER104> What about the dating sites flooded with scammers pretending to be women, trying to make you visit porn sites. They are pretty easy to spot after a little bit.

</comment><comment><USER105> Is there an extension that just hides all non-verified reviews? I want reviews from people who at least paid for the item.

</comment><comment><USER106> unverified != fake!!

Most of my reviews are "unverified", because I purchase elsewhere. But because amazon is a great aggregator of reviews, I want to pay it back by helping others.

Now of course, there are indeed many fake reviews, but this article does a terrible job of explaining the situation.

<comment><USER56> The article mentions a case where 439 unverified reviews were all posted on the same day for one kind of not-known brand headphones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> "Bought on Amazon" is becoming the new "Made in China".

</comment><comment><USER90> Ignore the score - pull up the critical reviews and look for common themes.

</comment><comment><USER108> Amazon, Booking.com/Facebook/Reddit/TripAdvisor/Twitter

Fake reviews/accounts are one of the main issues social media and Content generation sites are facing these days.

One of the solutions is using Blockchain/ or do a quick verification process (Like upwork for example)

</comment><comment><USER29> This is the sound of one of the AI bubbles going _POP_

Expect more frequency to come. Expect it to overcorrect so that AI is a dirty word sometime soon and fantastic uses of statistical learning will be poison in funding. It's all so predictable even an algo can see it coming.

</comment><comment><USER109> Have you been living under the rock?

Since when "no news" is a news?

</comment><comment><USER110> Amazon lets people sell $5 Ikea items for $45. Fuck them.

<comment><USER111> [https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation- now/2017/10/24/or...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation- now/2017/10/24/orlando-couple-finds-65-pounds-marijuana-amazon- order/793580001/)

Amazon lets drug dealers sell thousands of dollars of weed through their storefront.

I wonder if Amazon allowed drug sniffing dogs to search the warehouse, if they didn't, seems like an endorsement of some kind.

</comment></comment><comment><USER112> Amazon should at the least stop unverified reviews.

</comment><comment><USER113> Amazon - the company that broke online shopping.

</comment><comment><USER100> AliExpress is worse. Fake/low-quality products just disappear completely and there's very few, short reviews. It's almost as bad as eBay.

</comment><comment><USER114> Look, mahcine learning is hard guys, we need to give amazon another few years to work out the kinks and then no more false reviews ever again...

</comment><comment><USER115> 'r/flooded by/depends on/'

</comment><comment><USER116> I've commented on how scammy Amazon is multiple times on here. For whatever reason I feel like there are more people on HN ready to defend Amazon than not and call out those who say it's become scammy as "overreacting."

</comment><comment><USER117> Like everything else online, do your research. I assume we all know plenty of people who have taken online reviews at face value, I have done it myself. Like most other things on the internet, they can be faked. It is sad that people take advantage of good faith systems like this and do not feel the consequences.

Side note: Having the consumer group be named "Which?" and to include the question mark in it makes it jolting to read in the middle of a sentence. I can't tell if I like the name or dislike it a lot.

<comment><USER118> > Like everything else online, do your research.

There are many categories where this advice sounds a lot easier than it is. There's a whole industry creating fake review sites, farming things out to people for favorable social media reviews, etc. and it takes a non-trivial amount of time and skill to figure out which sources are reliable. As long as the internet runs on advertising there's no reason to expect this to get easier since companies like Google make considerable amounts of money from all of those ads.

<comment><USER117> While I agree with you, I am not sure what the alternative you are searching for is. Either you don't buy it, or put in enough diligence to find out more about the product you are purchasing. I would assume a normal person would put in the amount of effort that somewhat equates to the value of what they are buying. I would never spend days researching the best brand of umbrella to buy (not knocking umbrellas) but I would if it was a mouse or maybe keyboard. The mouse has a higher perceived value to me and makes it worth it. Also, word of mouth is still relevant and probably always will be. If my friends/family enjoy a product, I am inclined to believe I will too.</comment></comment></comment>


Using bpython shell with django (and some Ipython features you should know) - <AUTHOR> http://uswaretech.com/blog/2009/12/using-bpython-shell-with-django-and-some-ipython-features-you-should-know/ <comment><USER2> bpython seems to be _much_ better than ipython ... switching now ~

<comment><USER3> Well, depending on what you want from it -- the curses UI and autocomplete implementation are very nice, but ipython has a lot of additional features that bpython isn't interested in implemented. I miss the ?? _function_name_ feature in ipython that shows the complete source code for a function or class, since the function header isn't always informative enough; I tend to use ipython's bash emulation pretty frequently too.

<comment><USER2> I just need a better replacement for the default python shell. iPython has those nice extras, but I rarely use them ... so bpython is a much better choice for me now :)</comment></comment></comment>


Look like the brand you want to be - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/2011/10/04/project-blowfish-look-like-the-brand-you-want-to-be/ <comment><USER2> From the customer care side of it, responsiveness matters a lot in the enterprise world (and the non-enterprise world as well). Even if a very complicated issue takes 3 months to fix, responding to an email or opened ticket within an hour and keeping continuous communication with the customers. I have seen customers happy when an issue takes 3-6 months to solve because the person helping them talked to them every couple days asking for more info or giving updates on the the progress. At the same time, I have seen customers mad as hell because the initial response to an new ticket took 3 hours enough though the it was solved 15 minutes later.

</comment><comment><USER3> Counterpoint: [http://blog.asmartbear.com/youre-a-little-company-now-act- li...](http://blog.asmartbear.com/youre-a-little-company-now-act-like- one.html)

<comment><USER4> While both articles address a company's outward image, I'd say that the two touch upon very different things. I understood OP's post to be more about the quality of marketing collateral and making sure that the client experience was well fleshed-out, and I read your link to be a lesson in messaging. I didn't find the two to be mutually exclusive.

<comment><USER5> I think that both articles are saying the same thing, fundamentally:

Your brand should be something your customers expect, but only just.

Smart Bear was a small, upstart company, selling cutting-edge tools for developers into a relatively new market.

Developers and their managers value directness, especially at small companies. A vendor that shows all the signs of being a peacock while obviously being a pigeon will come across as scummy, because your market is expecting one of "small upstart dude in shed" or "massive enterprise company with a headcount greater than many cities", and not something in the middle.

Iron Port's customers, on the other hand, are buying security products, and frankly, the security industry is almost all theatre. An impressive-looking website, bespoke-looking product, and glossy sales brochure is all in the ante of playing at the security-vendor table, especially before Web 2.0.

Your company has to dress for the occasion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I would urge though that early stage startups be careful to not prematurely scale (with graphics). This info seems more for those that are wee bit further down the lifecycle. Just keep that in mind.

If you've already got a few customers and are trying to spur the engine of growth then going this way will surely help you.

Carefully make the correct decisions based on who your customers are (and in this facet if they really are Enterprise).

My experience with Enterprise is that it can seem like a networking game. Either your intro'd somehow, reached out to (the easy way), or part of a 'approved vendors' list (take a guess on how you get in to that... '*sometimes' requires insured...).

[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2700-the-best-visual- descript...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2700-the-best-visual-description- of-a-company-ive-ever-seen)

Just keep in mind where you stand to make a better choice.

</comment><comment><USER7> TL;DR - Nobody in enterprise took us seriously, so we did a bunch of cosmetic stuff like put fancy faceplates on our hardware. We also made our documentation top notch. Then people took us seriously.

I wonder which was more of a win, doing the great documentation or making the equipment not look cheap. I'm betting it would depend greatly on who makes the purchase decisions in the customer companies.

<comment><USER8> As someone who used to make these decisions, the answer is both.

On a device like this the life-cycle support is just as important as the initial sale. By creating great documentation, a safe package for the delivery, and caring enough to make it not look like a repackaged Dell system, it's a good indication that you'll care enough when I call at 3AM with an urgent issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Organizational Mimicry? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry>

</comment><comment><USER10> This seems to be the corporate version of the adage "dress for the job you want, not the job you have."</comment>


Ask HN: Random glitches of color in macOS 11 / Big Sur - <AUTHOR> I know it's a beeta and all, but just wanted to know if it's just me or someone else is experiencing it too..
I basciallly get this weird green background buttons on my touchbar at startup, it fixes itsellf after the system starts, but it's weird.
Now I got the same on my finder sidebar on a filepicker view, but with red background instead of black.
Is apple planning color-customizing features a-la windows? lol
I need to backup and reinstall prob too <comment><USER2> I've seen disappearing menubars and color glitches of the desktop in the top- right quadrant, this is on an external monitor connected to a 15" 2016 MacBook Pro. It's not in public beta yet, and it shows.

</comment><comment><USER3> No, you neeed to fire up Feedback Assistant.app and file reports for what you are seeing.</comment>


Video of world's air traffic patterns over 24h - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/v/o4g930pm8Ms&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1&fmt=18

<comment><USER2> Simultaneously fascinating and disgusting.

I've watched this a couple of times; anyone else notice the considerably faster blips at the top of the map? Spy plane?

<comment><USER3> Those planes are flying just as fast as the others, but their paths are distorted from the map projection.</comment></comment>


Why I Support Barack Obama - <AUTHOR> http://radar.oreilly.com/2008/10/why-i-support-barack-obama.html <comment><USER2> _It's clear that the era of hands-off government is over._

Indeed, that's been clear since Hammurabi. WTF is wrong with this guy?

Almost every industry is highly regulated except for...oh, I don't know...the _book_ industry. Maybe it's time for an "unfettered capitalist" like Mr. O' Reilly to be regulated, to prevent the damage he's been doing. (Damage being variously defined by whatever phantasms J. Random Bureaucrat determines.)

The hand that feeds.

<comment><USER3> Think of the problem unregulated websites could cause. One poorly designed one could infect people with spyware that could cause the whole system to crash. Clearly, it's time to end this unfettered market and bring some much needed regulation to the web. Each proposed website or change to a website should go through a careful review by an appropriate government agency before it goes live. This is clearly becoming more important as more financial information and other sensitive data goes over the web.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This really isn't hacker news, even if Mr. O'Reilly has been on a preaching- about-startups kick.

<comment><USER5> The fact that a link is about politics doesn't mean that it's not hacker news. The overlap isn't zero. And arguably anything Tim O'Reilly takes the time to write a long piece like this about is ipso facto hacker news, because he is one of the leading thinkers about hacking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This would only have been news if he _didn't_ support Obama.

<comment><USER7> Has he long been known as a socialist? It was news to me.

I hope I'm not the only one who found this piece alternately very creepy and idiotic. Creepy for the naive statism and high hopes for government power and efficiency. (You WANT the government to regulate the internet? Really!?) Idiotic in the ignorance of economic matters: blaming laissez faire for the current crisis; misunderstanding that Obama and the democrats get much more wall st. money.

<comment><USER3> We have to fight the growth of authoritarian government by electing the guy who A) spinelessly voted with his party on all the privacy-destroying measures asked for by Bush, sometimes with token resistance and B) wants the government to have much more power over society.

Don't forget, he's a great leader, intelligent and courageous, though he's never had an original thought or differed from his party on any significant issue.

I wouldn't dislike him so much as President if there were going to be some substantial resistance from an opposition party, but it looks like the Congressional Republicans are going to get destroyed.

<comment><USER8> Tim O'Reilly's piece is "idiotic" and Obama has "never had an original thought".

These political discussions sure bring out the best in people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Seems like I remember a commentary yesterday about schools of higher education that at the end had sentence like "and this is just a preface to discuss the media's treatment of Sarah Palin and Barack Obama" Otherwise it seemed to be a well-written argument against formal higher education.

That post was denounced as being partisan.

WTF?

Just checking. My bullshit detector is going off with how you guys view what's partisan and what's not around here.

<comment><USER8> I think this deserves killing just as much as the other article. Look at how bad some of the commentary is already.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> he addresses some key tech/web issues, and well its tim o'rielly so at the very least its going to be based on some points relevant to hackers.

</comment><comment><USER10> wow thats a long endorsement

</comment><comment><USER11> Good god, I can't wait for election season to be over. People buy into the stupid election propaganda more and more every 4 years.

<comment><USER12> Propaganda?

Reading up on candidates, being enthused about them, and voting based on the issues you believe in, isn't the same as buying into propaganda. You have a right to your cynicism, but don't mock the people who genuinely care.

<comment><USER3> He is simply looking at what the candidates say they will do. Based on their actions, Obama has one of the most partisan voting records in Congress. He does whatever the Democratic Party does. As President, he will be driven by Congress, he will sign any legislation written by the blue team.

Surveillance laws will not be repealed. Non-farmers will be screwed over to benefit farmers. Young people will be screwed over to pay off elderly voters. Consumers will be screwed over to benefit unions. School children will be screwed over to benefit the NEA. Future generations will be screwed over to benefit current generations. Funding for new programs to make Americans more dependent on government will be piled on top of a deficit fast approaching $1 trillion.

His speech might be sparkling, but his record does not fill me with Hope. I miss gridlock.

<comment><USER9> Here's a little brain teaser that anybody can try (I think I can do this without taking a side. I'll give it a shot anyway)

Pick a candidate. Imagine that they win. Based on past performance, will the other candidate who lost help them enact bipartisan legislation?

Now do that with the other candidate. Does the first guy help out for the greater good, or pull back to join in with the rest of his party in the regular old political games. Is there substance there or just smoke?

So which choice is going to help the maximum amount of voters?

Interestingly enough, you can use this exercise to support either candidate no matter what the results. But I think it does enlighten things a bit.</comment></comment></comment></comment>