Choosing Go at American Express - <AUTHOR> https://americanexpress.io/choosing-go/ <comment><USER2> "...we narrowed our testing languages to C++17, Java, Node.js, and Go. The first three languages were already in use at American Express, whereas Go was not."

I am curious: why was Go the only language not currently in use at AMEX to be considered? Why not Rust? Why not dotNet Core?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not an expert in Rust or dotNet Core but I can give a bit of insight. At the time (2016) Rust wasn't as visibly used in production as it is today. Also from my understanding over the past few years a lot of new features have gone into Rust which makes it more viable these days.

As far as dotNet Core, it is used at AXP but generally not in our high performance environments. Not saying it couldn't as I'd have to do a lot more research to say one way or another on that. But I'd say that's the primary reason it wasn't added to the list.

<comment><USER2> My apologies: I missed the 2016 reference -- I wouldn't have recommended dotNetCore three years ago and I'm only now waking up to the power of and speed of Rust and didn't realize just how young it is. I'm still a little amused that Go was the __only __language not in use already that was considered but understand that the list of possible high performance alternatives was indeed short... shorter than I realized.

<comment><AUTHOR> All good. There were a lot of factors to creating the list, Enterprise use and readiness was one big one. So we narrowed it down to what we thought were the best choices. Always the possibility we missed something, but thats true of any decision like this.

Appreciate the read and questions though!

<comment><USER2> Are you on the AMEX team(s) in question? I am always interested in knowing all of the factors that were part of the decision in why a team chose the language or platform it did and if, after a respectable period of time, everyone is still happy with the choice or if there's buyer's remorse and what greener pasture languages/platforms (or problems with the selected stack) are bringing on those second thoughts.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, thoughts and opinions are my own of course but overall we've had good experiences.

I tried to insert some of the benefits we are seeing into the article in different pieces but now that we are several years later have it running in production. We are happy with the decision. In my opinion, there are even some newer things we didn't write in Go that I kind of wish we did.

The reasons we choose Go are holding true, and I can't say enough about how the performance and low GC times out of the box is something that is very beneficial. At least for my use cases.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> >Go achieved the second-best performance at 140,000 requests per second. This number wasn't far off from the top performer, which clocked in at 167,000 requests per second.

I wonder what the top performer was... I bet it was C.

If you're doing just binary to string conversion there's no need for a features-language like Java or Node. C probably would've been a better option.

<comment><USER4> C/C++ are _never_ better options because of the number and sheer variety of undefined behaviors, manual memory management and ways to shoot onself on the foot. It's something to use when there's no other choice (legacy code base, embedded systems - though this is also moving to higher level languages).

<comment><USER3> I promise you they are. There's a reason why over 90% of the programs you invoke or interact with on a daily basis are written in C.

<comment><USER4> Yes. Most of them are evolutions of legacy code bases and that's why they're also security nightmares.

If you're building anything new it's very hard to make a valid case for coding in C. You're almost always better off working in Rust, Java, Swift or Go

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It would be nice to see a breakdown of pros/cons for the various languages, the article doesn't really explain why other languages were excluded, it just talks about the benefits of Go. Also, I'd be interested if the same decision was made today, i.e. V8 has different performance characteristics than it did in 2016, and there are interesting ways to reduce/overcome warmup time.

</comment><comment><USER6> >These platforms were purpose built for performance, concurrency, resiliency, and availability. Given advancements in the programming space, we wanted to see what languages best suited our reliability and performance needs. We also needed something that fit modern infrastructure and design patterns.

>As such, we launched an effort to evaluate different languages.

I feel the purpose of a payment network is performance, concurrency, resiliency, and availability, and somewhere, wayyy towards the bottom of the list, at 2px font size, modernity and extensibility are there.

</comment><comment><USER7> Very interesting blog article. Thanks for sharing. Are you able to comment on how ML might be integrated to the payments and rewards system? Is it just a matter of APIs on top of Kubernetes/Docker? Or did you have to recreate models in Go?

</comment><comment><USER8> Seems weird to choose just one of { C++, Go, Java, Javascript }. None of these languages is really a substitute for any of the others, except perhaps for Go and Java.

Go certainly cannot cover all C++ uses, nor Javascript/Node.

<comment><USER9> They weren't choosing for all use cases, but for the ones they needed.</comment></comment>


Twilio's new Notifiy API - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2016/05/25/twilios-new-notifiy-api-helps-developers-reach-users-across-sms-push-notifications-and-messaging-apps/?ncid=rss <comment><USER2> I need to build a notifications service for our application, and it would be nice if one of my existing tools like Intercom provided the service instead. I want to be able to send messages of varying levels of urgency - e.g. "send password reset now" vs. "this message should arrive within an hour and can be bundled." The service already has communication details - email, phone, push notification info, maybe even facebook auth. I wish it would intelligently route to the correct notification method based on each user's responsiveness (did they open the email?), cost (can I save money by using push vs. sms?) and available methods (e.g. I don't have a twilio number in their country). An API for marking messages as read via a UI notification center would be cool too.

Message spam is the worst, and building intelligent routing across communication methods is becoming a pain.

<comment><USER3> I believe [http://lifecycle.io/#/](http://lifecycle.io/#/) is doing this. You may want to check them out!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wonder how this works. Currently there's only a landing page that asks you to request access so I have no idea.

Do developers integrate Twilio SDK into their apps (similar to Fabric, etc.)? If so, sounds like a way different model than what they used to do (Basically you could integrate just by calling their REST endpoint since it was SMS based and required no installation of any app, but with APNS the only way I can see this work is if you tightly integrate with Twilio API by using their SDK)

How do they figure out a number is associated with an account? Does this assume that users will enter their phone numbers when signing up to a service?

<comment><USER5> Hi, I work at Twilio and can answer questions about Notify. Notify is predominantly a REST API you could access through server-side helper libraries in your favorite language. We have SDKs for Notify as well that provide additional functionality (like the ability to notify the user on the device they were last active one.)

To associate a number (or push registration) with a user you create a "binding"

More info here: [https://www.twilio.com/notify/api](https://www.twilio.com/notify/api)

<comment><USER4> Maybe i'm missing something but isn't this just like Urban Airship? Basically you need to have an app already in production, and you push through Twilio instead of directly hitting APNS. I do understand the benefits of having a 3rd party manage expired device tokens and sending broadcast push, etc. but having a hard time understanding what's novel about this.

<comment><USER5> Notify has two unique components compared to other tools in the market. First it is multi-channel- you can send push yes, but also global SMS and notifications into messaging apps like Facebook Messenger, Viber, and WeChat. Second, Notify provides orchestrations- fan out, fall back (push first then SMS if not received), notify on last active or current active device, etc. The fact that Twilio acts as a registrar is something that was highly requested from our customer base.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> TLDR:

> _Here is the scenario [Twilio CEO Jeff Lawson] envisions: maybe a user signs > up to get SMS from a company (in exchange for a coupon, for example). Then, > over time, that user also installs the company's app on two devices. Now, > push notifications allow you to give that user a far better experience, but > you don't want to send both SMS and push notifications to every device the > user has the app installed on (that would be annoying, after all). With the > new API, you simply set up a rule to send a push notification to the device > the user last used (or the one that is currently active) and then fall back > on SMS if that doesn't work._

</comment><comment><USER7> APN (apple push notify service): Apple lets you route a push notification to a cell phone

FCM (firebase cloud messenger): Google will let you push notifications to either android devices or iOS through APN, transparently abstracting device differences away from you

Twilio Notify: Twilio will send either over SMS or FCM, abstracting the presence of the app install away from you

I know this is a good thing as software gets easier, and I'm aware that all software works through abstraction, but for web services in particular this seems like crazy nested service glue.

</comment><comment><USER8> Typo: should be "Notify API"

</comment><comment><USER9> Mindy Kaling's character on The Office was ahead of her time. WUPHF!

<comment><USER10> I could be wrong but wasn't that Ryan's idea?

<comment><USER11> Supposedly originally Mindy's idea, until Ryan stole it from her. She later threatens to sue him.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Twilio now needs websockets

</comment><comment><USER13> From the article: _" We want customers to reply to messages because we send billions of notifications per month and every one of those should be an opportunity to start a conversation with a customer."_

Billions of notifications per month. That's spam.

Now to figure out some way to reroute them all to the CEO's phone.

<comment><USER14> i think you got downvoted, but... why does it have to be 'spam'?

I get dozens of notifications from various services every day, and I absolutely gave permission or requested them in every case. I get spam email and sms, yes, but of the notifications I get... none are spam.</comment></comment>


There's no such thing as a Google killer - <AUTHOR> http://www.skrenta.com/2009/07/theres_no_such_thing_as_a_goog.html

<comment><USER2> That seems an awfully passive and uninspiring attitude, but I can understand not aiming for the top. It's hard to get there, I get it.

I'm curious, however, if you're not going for being the Google/Bing/etc. killer, where do you aim? Being acquired by Google, perhaps?</comment>


Programming for all, part 2: From concept to code - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/programming-for-all-part-2-from-concept-to-code/

<comment><AUTHOR> Here is the part 1 of this series: [http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/programming-for- all-p...](http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/programming-for-all- part-1-an-introduction-to-writing-for-computers/)</comment>


SPEC: is in private beta. - <AUTHOR> http://www.specapp.cc/

<comment><AUTHOR> we are looking for an front end. if you love car and is a front end developer. let us know.</comment>


Ask HN: I'm 40 this year, and have depression. Any words of wisdom? - <AUTHOR> I read comments and stories here most days, occasionally comment on or submit things, and hold HN in high regard for the variety and quality of discourse.
I'm 40 this year and as a milestone birthday it has me ruminating on how to steer my life in the coming few years. At 20, I was a technical support manager with 20+ staff. At 25, I was travelling the world as a technical trainer and event speaker. At 30, I was self-employed with a good income from podcasting. At 35, I was divorced and had to start from scratch. For nearly 5 years, things in my life have been a lot harder to do achieve than they should be. At 40, I'm at a crossroads with a metaphorical blank canvas. I want to be more content with life at 45, 50 and 60.
My job (technical consultant, proactive and reactive) keeps the roof over my head, but I'm not jumping out of bed in the morning to do it. My motivation is at an ebb. I don't exercise enough, but I'm starting over with that. I've started intermittent fasting for mental clarity and that seems to be helping -- and this Ask HN post wouldn't have happened without it.
I have anhedonia, but I've accepted that when I find something fun that'll go away. It's a symptom of the low-level depression that comes and goes, and the best medicine I've found for me is fresh air and exercise. This should not be considered a cry for help, it's something I have a rational control of, most of the time.
And so, I Ask HN: I'm 40 this year, and mentally damaged -- any words of wisdom?
Thanks very much for reading. <comment><USER3> First, stop thinking of yourself as mentally damaged. You're normal. If by the time you're 30-40 and you haven't realized that all new things that you encounter will eventually go away, then you're mentally damaged. It's a normal transition from shortsighted childishness to farsighted maturity.

You're in the prime of your life. You're at a stage where you have skills and experience to do lots of things and make decent money. Your job may be boring as hell, but view your job as a tool. It something that gives you the means to do what you want.

That is the hard part, figuring out what you want. Ultimately contentment comes from within but it's easier to have with the correct external forces supporting you. Things at this point in your life should be easier to achieve, not because they are in fact easier because often time they are more difficult tasks, but because you have years of experience knowing that you can overcome any obstacle placed in your path.

I'm 45 and can relate to much of what you've said. I wish I had time to write more, but you really are in your prime. Do want you need to do so you can do what you want to do. Those two things should be very balanced at this point in your life, whereas when you're younger you're always doing the needs and you never have time to think about your wants.

<comment><USER4> > _First, stop thinking of yourself as mentally damaged. You 're normal_

I think it's unhelpful to assert things like that when we don't have enough information for making definitive statements. Perhaps they do have some genuine and serious issues? We can't know just from the description given. If they do then acting like they don't isn't very helpful.

<comment><USER3> Like many of the other commenters, my point was that labeling yourself as broken and assuming the victim mindset is what's unhelpful.

Everyone has issues, literally everyone and understanding that it's normal and not what defines you is what's important. This allows you to acknowledge, embrace, and seek help if needed.

<comment><USER4> But you don't know this person's history or current state! You are just assuming it is mere labelling.

You're also assuming that if someone says they are mentally broken they are taking a victim mindset. If someone says they have 20 broken bones and cannot walk is that taking a victim mindset, or might it just be an objectively description independent of their mindset?

Just because everyone has issues does not mean that everyone has the same magnitude of issues. Some people really do have it far worse than others.

<comment><USER3> Obviously the original poster seems to agree with the many people advising not to take the victim mindset as the title has been changed. Describing yourself as "damaged" is the victim label word choice, not an objective medical mental state term. Only later was it mentioned as anhedonia. The damaged description has been changed to depression to describe a condition not a label. No where did I suggest that they should just "get over" depression or their anhedonia. It's that they should not allow those things to define them as damaged.

I can't tell if you're intentionally misunderstanding or if you really don't get the difference. To compare a literal medical condition (20 broken bones) with a non-medical label (mentally damaged) seems as it could be either.

Any perceived double standards on mental vs physical care is only in your head. Proper labeling of any condition for both the doctor and the patient is critical. If you suffer massive trama (such as your broken bones) and allow the label of cripple to define you, that's what you'll be.

It is normal for everyone in life to encounter challenges. Be they physical or mental. To have a view that your physical or mental condition is special or somehow makes you not normal does a great disservice to yourself.

You seem very talented at reading words that do not exist and telling people they assume things when most everything you've written is an assumption. It may be time to look up "objective" vs "subjective".

It's not helpful to the discussion to put words in people's mouth.

<comment><USER4> I'm was talking about a comment made before any of those changes, where that comment was making assumptions. I'm also saying that you can't assume that what is there in the OPs post or comments tells the full story.

You don't seem to understand that someone can actually be in a severely bad mental state (as if a label being "non-medical" somehow means such a state cannot exist). You are assuming that no claims of such can be objectively accurate -- that they can only be allowing oneself to be defined in a certain way, and can only be expressions of mindset or attitude.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As others have stated, the biggest thing is to stop beating yourself up - <USER2> calling yourself damaged.

Also, you need to start exercising - it is the only thing for me personally that will keep "the darkness" at bay. The research and neurobiology behind exercise being an effective modulator of mood is all solid.

Further, I recommend you listen to Jocko Podcast [1] - by Jocko Willink, a retired Navy SEAL commander, he does some great interviews with guys like Col. Bill Reeder, who spent several years in a POW camp.

Think about guys like John Mccain, who spent 6 years being tortured, neglected and beaten day in and day out -- and it really starts to put things in perspective, because he put ALL of that trauma aside and went on to lead a fairly remarkable career, and raise a family etc.

1 - [http://jockopodcast.com/2017/02/22/63-through-the-valley- my-...](http://jockopodcast.com/2017/02/22/63-through-the-valley-my-captivity- in-vietnam-with-colonel-william-reeder-us-army-pilot-vietnam-pow/)

<comment><USER6> Everything else sounds good, but McCain is not what he seems:

[http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-tokyo-rose- ran-...](http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-tokyo-rose-ran-for- president/)

<comment><USER5> Fair enough... Then I'll stick to my original examples of Col. Bill Reeder, and Capt. Charlie Plumb.

Check out their stories on the podcast:

Charlie plumb: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XgwpDnalZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XgwpDnalZE)

Bill reeder: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHIxtd- oYTs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHIxtd-oYTs)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Like a few other mentioned, don't label your self as damaged and even avoid labling yourself by a prognos you might or might not have gotten. During my life i have seen quite a handful of people with rather small problems blowing them up into unreasonably large sandcastles that only prohibited further development and covered every bridge they wanted to pass.

Like many other here i loved computers as a kid but growing up making it my job made me lose that love, and i barelly hack software at home anymore. The reason i love being at work is because i have great coworkers, not that i burn for what i do. I bet a lot here can identify themselves with this here.

If i could just give you one advise, it would be: Get a 1000cc superbike. I have a very short commute to work, but i only need to ride 5 minutes to come to work all pumped with adrenalin, which i replace with a coffeine-rush as i step in to the office. The rest of the day flows, and i can't wait to get back on my bike to go home. This might not be a one-size-fits-all-solution, but it's worth a try and a mention.

Good luck mate.

<comment><USER8> One nit to pick, a beginning rider should NOT get a 1000cc superbike and then use it for an adrenaline rush. That's a ticket to the ER/morgue.

<comment><USER9> Agreed. Speaking from experience, any bike is a trip to the ER. Riding in to my office job was one of the best parts of my day - until I was hit head on by a car. It's not worth it to me anymore, cyclists are invisible to drivers!

<comment><USER10> Try louder exhaust next time =P

<comment><USER7> I cant upvote this enought, loud pipes save lifes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you haven't heard of it yet, I suggest that you look at Albert Ellis's Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), and start training yourself to aggressively fight any demons that might be haunting you. I highly recommend Ellis's book, "A Guide to Rational Living", which will train you in challenging your own self-defeating thoughts. Note that I don't mean this as a cure-all, but merely as one of the tools you (or anyone else!) should have in their life's toolbox.

The fundamental premise of REBT is that it's not the events in our lives themselves, but our beliefs about the events that upset our emotional state. Hence to change our negative emotions, we must attack through reason the beliefs that promote negative emotional states. Here's is a useful summary of the REBT approach: [https://rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html](https://rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html) .

What I love most about REBT is that it trains us to be our own therapist. That is quite empowering and liberating!

<comment><AUTHOR> >What I love most about REBT is that it trains us to be our own therapist.

Thank you for your advice and recommendation -- I have just purchased a copy of the book.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> It sounds like you are doing what all of have to. I am just over 40, and I have had a similar set of experiences. Getting back on the horse is the cure. Try going out on a date. My brother, a few years older, had it worse than I did in some ways, and is just starting to date again and it took him a while but he's happy he's met someone similar to him in life now.

Compare this with a friend who (late 30s) complains about being lonely but won't ask a woman out that he likes. It hits a point where you need to just dive in and face everything. But, by the way you wrote your post here, it seems like you are doing that. Keep going, you won't feel better until you make a breakthrough, but you won't make a breakthrough if you give up.

Just trust that steady forward progress makes results. I hope you do well. I think many of us techies had rousing younger years and some have a harder time adjusting to slowing down or changing our perspective when life slows down around us.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm turning 40 this year too; 2019 I'll be 40.

Let's be honest with one another? You need to change your thinking and behavior. It's all mental and you know it. Feed into the bullshit negative thinking and it'll continue to grow and take over your life.

You already know the answer - go out and experience new things. Take a road trip, have a beer, watch two grown ass men kick the shit out of one another in an MMA fight or go to a coffee shop with a book and tell yourself "Today, I let the moment slip by while I sip on coffee" and remember...

Stop over thinking life. You can't control it and you'll never win if you think you can control it.

Life is like a box of chocolates - eventually it'll be empty and kicked to the side of the road. For now, its full and everyone wants a piece.

</comment><comment><USER14> This is what I realized; no matter how much you love your work/profession when you started out, it's impossible to keep that flame of curiosity and interest after 15-20 years of work. You need to get away from it frequently to rekindle that flame. Find hobbies that have nothing to do with technology or computers or programming like playing instruments, hiking, running, knitting or whatever else that interests you.

</comment><comment><USER15> full time engine mechanic here. ASE certified and everything...ive been doing it for 15 years. Some days are worse than others, like when im coming back from a 3 day weekend full of cadillac margaritas and over-grilled burgers...but nothing like what you describe.

When I think 'mentally damaged' im picturing someone who sticks their hand in a running engine to 'feel if the belts are moving ok.' You're doing pretty good from what I can tell, but ever since I started checking out HN ive seen quite a few people in tech that feel the same way you do.

Is it offices that do this? nobody I know in my office ever seems really happy in the morning. seems like sitting around all day staring at a computer might start to eat away at a mans soul.

If money isnt an issue, I'd suggest spending time learning a trade as a hobby or maybe more. maybe pick up a shift changing oil at a local shop, and see how that grabs you. Im not saying its the easiest thing in the world, but the job is pretty social and even though your shoulders and arms ache after the first day, you never feel like you arent doing something useful.

</comment><comment><USER16> Are you seeing a therapist?

I would highly recommend going to a therapist. I had the same problem around a year ago, and having an unbiased person to go and talk to about my feelings once a week, keep track of my moods and persistent frustrations, and help me set and meet realistic goals was extremely helpful. I also made it clear I was not interested in taking any medication.

I went for about a year straight, but I don't go anymore. I still value the time I spent in therapy and thought it was helpful. I simply progressed enough such that the ball was in my court. I'll probably go back in a year or two.

</comment><comment><USER17> I'm 34, and it sounds like I struggle with a lot of the same emotional issues that you do.

I wish I had a better answer for you, but all I have is "just keep swimming".

The first time I experienced depression and anhedonia, it basically broke me. I was truly despondent and was almost incapable of hope for the future. In time - and with the help of family, my wife, psychologists, and prescription drugs - it lifted.

That first time took almost two years before I saw the first glimmers of hope again; two years before I felt _anything_ , really. Thereafter, just knowing that it was a temporary state and that it had passed before help more than anything else. I go through bouts of it every few months now and during that time I'm much less effective in both my personal and professional life, but it passes much more quickly and with much less effort from me.

I just... wait it out. I recognize that the way I feel isn't based on real inputs, but is just a part of the way my body works. I strongly distrust my own emotions, and always verify that what I'm feeling has a rational basis. If it doesn't, I do my best to make decisions without regard for how I feel about the.

And yes, being outside seems to help me quite a bit.

</comment><comment><USER18> Well, I would recommend starting some serious exercising. What are you doing ? Lifting weights ? Running ?

If you're into running it would be great to fix some longer term goals, like running a marathon or a trail. I've found that long distance running and everything that goes with it, provides an enormous joy and an overall improvement in life perception. And if you do run, go running in a forest or at least in a park - not in a gym.

</comment><comment><USER19> I don't know if this would apply to you. Your story sounds similar to mine, so I'll share what I did, just in case. I also apologize in advance if this does not apply.

That said, I found my depression was a direct result of consuming depressants. Alcohol, weed, anything else I could get my hands on. Suicidal ideation was the order of the day. I got clean almost 23 years ago with the help of a 12-Step program. It sounds like an odd choice for an Atheist like myself. But it was absolutely the best thing I ever did for myself. I'd really like to tell you my life is a bowl of cherries all day every day. But that would be a lie. I do have a life that I was incapable of envisioning for myself. I am married, I am a dad and I'm pursuing my dream building my own company. I'm completely in love with my wife and my nine-year-old daughter. I get to feel a wide range of emotions. Every day. I get to be present for everything. I get to participate in every decision in my life, instead of living life by the default settings. And I get to be responsible for every one of those choices. It is freedom for my mind, my heart, and my body.

</comment><comment><USER20> You've got strengths and are already aware of several variables (exercise, fasting) you can control to increase your well-being and decrease your suffering. I encourage you to keep moving in the direction of ever increasing possibilities. I offer you 3 Immutable Laws of Forward Motion:

1\. Pain. 2. Uncertainty 3. Ceaseless Effort

Any attempts to exonerate yourself from these laws will necessarily lead to the sense of being stuck (without options) and hopeless (without possibilities). However if you accumulate skills to embrace these laws, you will increase well-being both for yourself and those you care about.

When you say, "things in my life have been a lot harder to do/achieve than they should...", you're headed for a dead end. Any plan that seeks contentment as a destination is likely to be a dead end. The best game to play has no promise of "win" or "lose". It's the game where you get to keep playing. Evolution seems to be playing that game, and it has produced some fairly numinous wonders. You being one of them.

</comment><comment><USER21> That you're seeking contentment over happiness says to me that you're wise - and without knowing your particular details, I would generally recommend starting a family.

For me, seeing my children grown in love provides me with the most contentment I've ever had.

</comment><comment><USER22> _I have anhedonia, but I 've accepted that when I find something fun that'll go away. It's a symptom of the low-level depression that comes and goes_

The ancients had a saying: A sound mind in a sound body.

I think lack of enjoyment is often due to lack of energy, plus unrecognized health issues. There is a lot of research linking depression to diet and brain inflammation. Off the top of my head, a Mediterranean Diet is sometimes shown as correlating to less brain inflammation and less depression. The olive oil used in it is thought to be one of the reasons.

So on top of the fasting and exercise, consider looking at research of that ilk, start a food and health journal and carefully experiment with diet to see if anything clicks.

Best.

</comment><comment><USER23> Genuinely happy youve reached out to a community to help. First off Ill say that you'll probably get a ton of different answers but nobody can really understand your motivation, your "blocks", what you think the issues are, etc in a post. That kind of thing takes some work and time with a really good counselor/ therapist.

Id really suggest finding someone. Dont go for fancy titles, just look around your area and start coming up with some criteria. Would you feel more comfortable with a male or female? Phd and brainey or soul searching? Meet with 5 people. They should all offer free 30min sessions for you to at least see if you'll click

Go with your instincts and trust them.

And please, keep up with the exercise.

<comment><USER24> If you haven't had a regular therapist and start looking, realize that it usually takes a few visits with you mostly talking to establish enough history in order for them to start sorting you out. If you don't start clicking with them in 5-6 sessions or so, look elsewhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Religion/spirituality is a great asset, especially as we get older.

</comment><comment><USER26> > At 35, I was divorced and had to start from scratch.

That seems to be the root of the problem. Do you have children?

<comment><USER27> I thought so too. But didn't want to post because it is a total guess.

Breaking and ending a once loving, intimate and totally absorbing relationship is one of the hardest things for a human to endure. The end of anything is always sad, the end of relationships most of all.

But again, we are guessing. Life's multifactorial and single issues often connect, catalyse and exaggerate what the mind imagines to be a single stress.

Wish the OP all the best.

<comment><USER26> I asked about children not because of curiosity, but how to deal with the situation.

I think if OP doesn't have kids, then the best would be just finish all the contacts with ex-wife. Physical and mental. It's mental effort due to fact that you can't forget you had wife.

If OP has kids, the situation is more complicated. Kids need parents, even they are divorced/separated. So I would encourage to keep the best contact with them as possible in certain circumstances. The problem is that there will be need to constantly meet ex-wife, and that would require even bigger mental effort to deal with it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I've skipped off of the surface of mid-life crisis for a few years, wondering often how to find meaning in life. The only advice I have is to seek happiness from within, whatever that means for you. You're unlikely to 'turn the corner' seeking external fulfillment. For me, I have to make/create things in order to be happy. That can be hard to fit into life, but now that I've figured out that I need it, I try to build time into my schedule.

</comment><comment><USER29> Go see a medical professional. They can connect you to a counsellor, someone who can give you more evidence based actionable ways to get yourself back on your feet.

</comment><comment><USER30> People don't put the same meaning behind "mentally damaged". Some people are really mentally damaged. You don't sound mentally damaged to me.

<comment><USER31> Mentally scratched and dented, maybe. Strip the old finish, sand it down a bit, and refinish, and that brain will look just like new.

OP is probably old enough now to accept that everyone eventually dies and becomes forgotten, and it's best to do things for yourself in the present, instead of fueling some invented myth of your own future importance. "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair."

Your brain is just dumping different quantities of different chemicals all over itself, and it's making you think you've gone crazy, just because it's different from what you remember from when you were younger. Well, you haven't gone crazy. The same thing happens to a lot of people. You get to a certain age, and your kids become more independent, your parents die, your pets die, your career hits a plateau, and maybe your spouse has some of the same stresses and blames you in some way for them, and that becomes yet another stress. Exercise and diet help balance your brain chemicals, but then again so do prescription drugs, herbal remedies, and recreational drugs. Some people resort to religion or psychedelics or both. Some people start a second batch of kids or adopt or get several cats. Some start to write books or music, or create visual art. Some splurge on luxury goods. There are a lot of ways to try to get back to feeling "normal" again; some actually work, and some are just placebo.

Ultimately, the common factor is that all these people realize that they are mortal, and their time is running out at the rate of one day of life per day on the calendar. They're afraid they're wasting it. But no matter what you do, you're going to die, and then everyone who cared about you or hated you will also die, and it may well be that your greatest accomplishment will be to spend your entire lifetime just propping up a trade economy with tasks that have little meaning when considered individually. But maybe you and the 7 billion other people also doing existentially meaningless grunt work manage to support themselves for species survival, and also collectively put together a colonization mission somewhere other than Earth, and you contributed more than a 7-billionth share of that accomplishment. Hooray for humanity; hooray for you!

If you can't find meaning in your life, just make one up. If it's a bad one, it will be forgotten; if it's a good one, it too will be forgotten. Your memory might last 2 years, or 2000 years, but it won't be you--you will be dead and gone. The important thing is that your chosen meaning motivates you to continue living your life, even when you have become genetically useless to the species and so many of your former peers seem to have gained more social status than you in the same amount of time. You don't need to be great and influential. Just _being_ is enough, and you can be whatever you want to be, instead of someone else's child, or someone else's parent, or someone else's spouse, or someone else's employee.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Build your own zen garden, continue doing what is good for you and try to let the destructive things way behind as from another era. I guess there is a change resistance as the age process is going, pain comes as result either physical or mental. Change is also healthy, dare to do new things and be in situations were you can achieve simple positive outcome.

PS. Search also for 'The Art of the Good Life' by Rolf Dobelli

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm 40, and I enjoy being 40. I feel that I start to understand why things are the way they are, why other people behave like they do, and why I am how I am. I don't go so far to say that i grok everything, but I certainly have a lot of clarity now that I did not have when I was younger. And I have a toolbox of things that help me when I am not sure about me, about my life etc.

The rest of your life is starting today. You have a job, a large dating pool and an open future. Visualize your future (it might look like a grey void) and give it a smile and it will no longer look scary (this is something that always works for me!). Then go and find a therapist. She'll help you get rid of the depression, to find motivation in your job and to figure out what to do in the next 40 years.

BTW - I found this article to be encouraging: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/opinion/sunday/how-to- sur...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/opinion/sunday/how-to-survive- your-40s.html)

</comment><comment><USER34> > I'm 40 this year and as a milestone birthday

It's only a milestone if you make it a milestone. You don't have to participate in these made up events if you don't want to.

I'd recommend the book "a guide to the good life" by William Irvine. It may help you transform your "anhedonia" from something negative to something positive.

</comment><comment><USER35> I'm 34 and have just recently pulled myself out of a 10-year phase of minor depression. Rational control is great and is something I often make use of to control the stress and reduce toxicity in my life, but wresting control of your emotional state and fueling your motivation is arguably far more important.

Like you, I've started to take exercise more seriously and also watching my diet a bit more than usual. This seems to help immensely. If you're anything like me, I tend to overthink too many things and I've found that to be a huge obstacle in trying to ward away depression, so I've put some focus on improving various aspects of my life rather than ruminating over random thoughts in my head.

Meeting new people and expanding your circle of friends seems to be a good way to keep your mental health in check as the human interaction doubles as an emotional support system.

</comment><comment><USER36> Have you tried a little meditation to help with some symptoms? I recommend this. Sit in a slightly dark room, be comfortable. Close your eyes, relax & take no thought (try it's hard). Do that for 15-30 minutes. Do this at least once a week, more the better. This will help you focus.

Peace and love on your journey. JTR

</comment><comment><USER37> Read Gail Sheehy's _Passages_. It talks about the different phases of life - life in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s etc. Without that reference, when there's unease it's hard to know what's "you" and what's "just being human". I certainly found it very enlightening.

<comment><USER37> This is her interviewed at length on _The Open Mind_ about her subsequent book _Pathfinders_. Very inspiring.

[http://www.thirteen.org/openmind- archive/aging/pathfinders/](http://www.thirteen.org/openmind- archive/aging/pathfinders/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> If your state is not where you want it to be then you have to change it somehow. There are many ways to do it, but maybe consider taking a break from work and doing something else if you can afford it.

Volunteer somewhere, help someone else out if you are in a position to do so.

If you think it's medical/clinical then seek professional help.

There are many buddhist/christian/hindu/etc. retreat centers around the world, consider a stay there for a few days and keep an open mind, you may find something there. It's not much different then a mental hospital except they won't force you to take meds.

Many times for smart/technical folks, the problem is less psychochemical and more intellectual/philosophical in nature. All the best, hope you find the help/motivation you need..

</comment><comment><USER39> Hi Pete, I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through. If I may recall, did you start a newsletter service of some sort in the past? We may have crossed paths before.

Nevertheless, your journey to this point has been nothing short of remarkable and you should be proud of all your accomplishments. Many people probably do not have the good fortune to pull off what you've done.

I think everyone goes through moments where they feel trapped so feel what you feel but also know that you have the ability to overcome it.

I'm happy if you'd like a buddy to listen to. Sometimes it's best to just let it all out and express yourself. Visit some place you've never been. See worlds different from yours and you might discover new things.

</comment><comment> wu-ikkyu Do you have any savings? Now might be a perfect time to take some time off work, travel, and/or figure out what you want to do with your life. Many people with a spouse and children will never have that opportunity

</comment><comment><USER40> There's going to be some fulfilment from having a great career but none of the funerals I've been to have any mention about career. It was always about hobbies and friends and family.

"Work to live, not live to work"

</comment><comment><USER41> I have no words of wisdom. I have PTSD from something that happened to me, but I'm in a similar situation. All I can do is say you aren't alone, and I wish you the very best.

</comment><comment><USER42> Exercise, sleep and nutrition can _always_ be improved.

Also get your hormone levels tested. I had cyclic depression from 15 through 25 and HRT has been a life saver. It becomes more noticeable at your age.

Everyone is different, but for me personally, a needle in the ass once per week is 100x better than depression, and it becomes something you have to live with, like brushing your teeth. Standard doses of 100mg/week are anarchaic though, look for 200mg/week and don't settle for the topical gels.

<comment><USER43> I have similar issues with my testosterone levels. One doctor said that I have to take testosterone from time to time, but I didn't accept the solution and looked for another doctor that said that I need a surgery to remove a varicocele.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Since it sounds like you're at a point where you realise you need to do something, do it now because it's not going to get any easier the longer you leave it.

</comment><comment><USER45> hmmm, you really need to get to the root of the problem. All I can tell you is that there are tools at your disposable. Old and New. One that is shunned by modern science because they say because there is no evidence or can't prove beyond statistically significance that something works or not, but you see people benefit from the old civilizations way of treating pain both spiritual and physical.

The most obvious one is daily exercise. Are you exercising regularly? If not, start immediately. This is not an age to start slacking.

Eat healthy. Relax. Avoid, stress if possible. Smoke a little ganja if your doctor is okay with it.

Always remember suicide is temporary, your loved ones will pay the ultimate price, and honestly I believe that your consciousness will painfully witness it. It's fallacy to accept that just because the physical body perishes that "you" end. I don't think so. The consciousness must live on, beyond the 3rd dimension. Michio Kaku, read his book, and tell me that in the trillions of stars that's been around for billions of years or less is thriving with life, life which may extend beyond the 3rd dimension which us mortals are limited to....but the 4th, 5th up till 11th. It totally makes sense that we aren't alone in this universe and that there are higher dimensional beings that look down upon our 3rd dimensional world on earth as we would look down upon the water striders who have no concept of up or down, unaware that we can seemingly teleport them from one location to another by lifting them out of the water and placing it in another place. To us, we can connect the cause and effect. To the water strider, it's the craziest shit that ever happened.

There's also evidence of children remembering their past lives, like that kid who got murdered and then remembered the guy that killed him as a boy and ended up arresting the guy.

</comment><comment><USER46> This plan worked for this dude, worth a shot :P

[https://np.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2lbqym/traveled_...](https://np.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2lbqym/traveled_to_mexico_to_buy_chemicals_to_humanely)

</comment><comment><USER47> Right. You have an extremely common illness and like all extremely common illnesses you should go and see a doctor. Even better if you can bypass some crap and go straight to a psychiatrist. You're not broken. You're not mentally damaged. You're ill.

</comment><comment><USER48> With depression - the key is not fighting with depression, but rather find what you want to focus on - something interesting, meaningful, especially if it relates to helping other people - and focus on it, whether you feel depressed or not.

That activity needs to be mental + physical.

</comment><comment><USER49> you had it too good when young so much so you don't appreciate your current life. you're a technical consultant. much better than a code monkey. you should be proud. but when you came from manager and events speaker, that kind of changes things.

</comment><comment><USER50> You were happy at different jobs and in a relationship.

Could you replicate similar in a 5 and 10 year plan?

</comment><comment><USER51> I suggest to go to www.brokenbrain.com where Dr Mark Hyman explains the causes of depression and other brain-related diseases. Once you understand the _real_ causes, it is relatively simple to remove the causes and get healthy again.

</comment><comment><USER52> I think you're finding some semblance of pleasure in fresh air and exercise.

I'd look back to your roots. It's easier than ever to get into podcasting, and with your experience it should be a breeze to podcast about something that you love.

</comment><comment><USER53> Life is relationships. Put most of your work into those and your mood should improve.

<comment><USER54> I've found meaningful work to be far more beneficial to my mood. I don't control what other people do and many a times their illogical decisions and the ensuing drama are not a pleasant experience.

<comment><USER55> Find better people? I know it's easier said than done.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> \- Why don't you try taking a long vacation? Stay in some hostels in South America. Meet some new people along the way. Maybe work remotely from there after you travel.

\- You could try microdosing LSD for the low-level depression.

<comment><AUTHOR> >You could try microdosing LSD for the low-level depression.

Thanks for this. CBD oil and psilocybin microdosing works pretty well for me, though there is a tendency for me to not find any immediate effect to the psilocybin and as such it's not something I do often enough. The CBD oil is more pronounced, though.

<comment><USER56> How do you feel about the travelling part?

<comment><AUTHOR> >How do you feel about the travelling part?

Honestly, scared that I'll have time away from work. It's becoming more clear to me that I have a dysfunctional relationship with my work, and some deep- rooted money issues (despite having enough to live on and money saved up).

Finding the root cause of my perceived issues is a priority, there's only so much I can repair (or improve, to be less weasel word-y) myself without locating and addressing the thing(s) that cause my issue(s).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Thanks for your honest truth, most people shy away from. Please have a look at the subject of "Mindfulness". I learnt it myself from the similar titled book from Joseph Goldstein.

Wishing you a fulfilling journey.

</comment><comment><USER4> Do you know what you want to do in the future, or what changes you want to make?

If you want, could you elaborate on the 'mental damage' you mention?

I think answers to questions like these would help people provide advice.

</comment><comment><USER58> Focus on gratitude.

Write a list of what you are thankful for.

Repeat often - at least weekly, best daily.

</comment><comment><USER54> Consider going back to school. I have a feeling you entered the workforce too early. It might give you a new perspective on things, and open a path to a completely different career.

</comment><comment><USER59> It's hard to get good advice about something like this over the internet. Consider talking to a capable therapist or life coach or the like.

</comment><comment><USER60> Make sure you are getting B-vitamins.

</comment><comment><USER61> Read "12 Rules for Life" by Jordan Peterson. It has many interesting ideas which were new to me and it helped me understand many of the things going on in my life. It is not a recipe for happiness but a set of tools that you can use to analyse yourself and others and to become a better person.

</comment><comment><USER62> 1\. See a professional therapist to help you sort out your issues. Maybe talk to several therapists initially to find one that you enjoy working with and then stick with that one therapist for awhile.

2\. Live healthy - By that I mean try to exercise daily and eat healthy. Gets lots of rest and drink lots of water. Avoid alcohol, sugar, and junk food.

3\. In addition to seeing a therapist, read "12 Rules for Life" by Jordan Peterson or listen to the audiobook version (available on audible and narrated by the author) while you go out jogging or hiking. Jordan Peterson also has an interactive "self authoring" program available ([https://www.selfauthoring.com/](https://www.selfauthoring.com/)) which is designed to help you sort out your past, present, and future.

</comment><comment><USER63> Try some magic mushrooms and learn something totally new.

</comment><comment><USER64> Go see a therapist.

</comment><comment><USER65> Why did you have to start from scratch at 35?

</comment><comment><USER66> Psychotherapy, meditation and community.

</comment><comment><USER67> Can relate. Anhedonia/depression all my life, and a mid-life divorce devastated me financially and personally.

Beyond what others have said, consider the possibility that this is a problem you may have for the rest of your life. Mine hasn't decreased much, but I've made some peace with it. To a degree, I just ignore or ride out the worst days. Reading the stoics seems to help. Literally just doing things can help. If you feel like doing something--anything--try to get yourself to do it.</comment>


Facebook Co-Founder's Asana Project Is Officially Launched - <AUTHOR> http://www.asana.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Their launch announcement is available at [http://blog.asana.com/2011/11/introducing-asana-the- modern-w...](http://blog.asana.com/2011/11/introducing-asana-the-modern-way- to-work-together/) .

I've written about the launch at [http://www.dailywebapps.com/2011/11/03/asana-task- management...](http://www.dailywebapps.com/2011/11/03/asana-task-management- for-teams/) .</comment>


Learning (some) Rust in (almost) 8 hours - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@knidarkness/learning-rust-at-hacktoberfest-in-8-hours-7b788883c665 <comment><AUTHOR> Some thoughts regarding extreme learning of a new tool, which in this case was Rust language.</comment>


Amid Sexual Harassment Lawsuit, Upload VR Raises $4.5M - <AUTHOR> https://net.xyz/2017/05/17/amid-sexual-harassment-lawsuit-upload-vr-raises-4-5-million/ <comment><USER2> I don't know it feels like tech industry really rewards being an asshole and bro culture at workspace. Probably the investors are inspired too much by Wolf of Wall Street.

<comment><USER3> You can't really compare wallstreet and tech industry. One of the them just extracts commission through transactions of others while companies in tech do create some intrinsic value ( well some of them atleast)

<comment><USER2> I think this kind of culture is more of result of having someone else's money in the equation. For wallstreet it is of client's and in tech industry it is of investors.</comment></comment></comment>


On Being a Free Software Maintainer - <AUTHOR> https://feaneron.com/2019/03/28/on-being-a-free-software-maintainer/ <comment><USER2> This has been discussed before and it has been true for me as well. I don't have a large, super-popular package I maintain, but several lesser known ones, some of which I wrote, and several of which I just adopted and passively became a maintainer over time.

At some point the pressure from the community made me pass the magical threshold between fun/useful/rewarding and downright chore.

It has permanently changed my perception of OSS management, to the point that I stopped releasing further projects, no matter how small, simply due to the work that these entail.

Just look at the discussions you find here monthly about being "a good author/maintainer/leader", where most expect full documentation, professional landing pages, useless code of conduct, and so on... BESIDES the project itself. You'll be criticized irregardless.

I have deep respect for the maintainers of popular OSS projects because of the amount of s*it they must take. I know I wouldn't do it for free at these scales. I also wouldn't do it besides another job since it is so demanding.

<comment><USER3> > useless code of conduct

#Code of Conduct

This is not a community project. This is my project. I know that will disappoint some people, but I do this for fun in my own spare time. If it stops being fun, I will stop working on it, which will pretty much kill the project. There are millions of projects in the world and the only reason they continue (if they actually do) is because the maintainers stubbornly stick at it.

With that in mind, here is the code of conduct: If it is fun for me then it is good. If it is not fun for me, then it is not good.

Things I find fun include: Bug reports that explain what you saw and what you expected to see. Suggestions for features that would make your life better. Stories of how the software so far has already made your life better. Entertaining stories of how you used the software (bonus points if it includes pictures of cats). Offers to volunteer to improve something (super bonus points if you _actually_ improve it). Questions about how the software works. Offers to write documentation (super, executive class bonus points if you actually write some). Answering questions that other people ask (bonus points if you get the answers right).

Things I don't find fun: Drama. That is all.

To some extent, I will accept drama in exchange for money. But it has to be a _lot_ of money. Think FANG level money. If you don't have FANG level money that you are willing to give me in exchange for drama, just don't do it -- even if you think it is the most important thing in the world.

There is no other code of conduct. I may arbitrarily declare some things fun for me and some things not fun. Please pay attention when I declare one way or the other and act accordingly.

Thank you.

<comment><USER4> > This is my project

Ownership is essentially the main problem of OSS here.

> If it stops being fun, I will stop working on it, which will pretty much > kill the project.

See what I mean ?

Makes me think of Hickey's "Open source is not about you" rant and I can't prevent myself from hearing "It's about me".

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18538123](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18538123)

<comment><USER5> It doesn't need to be about me.

But if it isn't about me, somebody else has to do the project management and the code commits.

That's just the way it is. When OSS goes further than the "my itch to scratch" scenario, it gets complicated and there needs to be a way to motivate people to scratch other people's itches.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Oh this is infuriating:

> You will be told that you need to develop a thick skin.

It's the equivalent of a bully taunting with "stop crying!"

I have been doing open source for about 10 years. A couple of my projects have 1000+ stars on gh for what it's worth.

Most people are chill. Some people disagree without being disagreeable. Then there's others who are completely toxic. A guy who was cto of a company and wanted to use one of my libraries made me absolutely miserable for weeks. Wrote about the experience here:

[http://charlesleifer.com/blog/your-idea- sucks/](http://charlesleifer.com/blog/your-idea-sucks/)

<comment><USER7> Chiming in to add that I've definitely had my ups and downs with open source. When it's going well it feels incredibly rewarding but when it's not, it absolutely sucks and I've gotten to the point where I avoid GitHub and try to take a break. It's part of the reason I've avoided taking donations for any project I work on. I'd feel a lot worse about taking a break if people were paying for higher expectations.

<comment><USER6> In 10 years, really the only negative experience that in any way affected my well-being was the incident I wrote about in the linked blog post. That covers probably a couple thousand GitHub issues. So really overwhelmingly positive stuff. Amazing how much I let one guy fuck up my day, in retrospect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This has not been my experience. I maintain various popular and not-so-popular projects (although maybe not to the level of gnome calendar) and I just work as much as I want. If I don't feel like handling an issue right then, I say I won't have time soon and that PRs are appreciated.

The vast majority of people are understanding, I don't remember anyone making a fuss about it.

<comment><USER9> Maybe because the consumers of your work are developers? GNOME Calendar (the OP's project) is an app for end users.

<comment><USER8> Possibly, but not all of them are. This isn't, for example:

[https://github.com/skorokithakis/catt](https://github.com/skorokithakis/catt)

And at most we got a few users asking about why they couldn't install it on 2. Maybe my users are just better-behaved.

<comment><USER9> Sorry, but any command-line tool is going to be used by advanced computer users, not normies.

(If you reply to this that GNOME is not for normies either, or Linux in general, I'll reply 'touche' though.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The way I have learned to deal with it is switching to a mostly read-only software publishing. The default of my answers to issues is some sort of "No", which might be "good idea, but not now", "good, but not planned, PR open", "not within the project's objectives", "bad idea, there's a better way", etc.

This is not great, I'd love to be able to do OSS fulltime and help hundreds of people out there. But the reality is that, with a fulltime job, it is either not helping 90+% individuals or risking burning out, which would be even worse (especially for me). Also, the fact that my software is used by millions of people per year (directly and indirectly) and I've received $10 in donations in total (~5 years of OSS) hints me that it's a very non-sustainable market.

<comment><USER11> What's your project?

I am running a fairly popular Ruby gem. Donations are indeed very low. To the point I have just remove the link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Are there any benefits to being a free software maintainer beyond the obvious pride and satisfaction that comes with the role? For example, is this something that people mention on their resumes? Does getting a job become easier and when you do, can you negotiate higher salaries?

Our world is incredibly indebted to _Free Software Maintainers_ and I wonder how we can pay them back in our little ways.

<comment><USER13> People can use sites like Open Collective, Patreon or the likes to directly pay open source projects or people involved with them. There's a lot of different platforms for this and I don't even know half of them. If there's a project you'd like to support, check if they take monetary contributions somewhere and if not, maybe suggest it to them and start donating :)

<comment><USER14> This is about free software, not open source software.

<comment><USER15> The "free" in free software is about freedom, not getting stuff free-of- charge.

<comment><USER16> English has a serious problem with ambiguity around the word "free". In the closely related Scandinavian languages, there is a difference between "fri" (as in freedom) and "gratis" (as in free of charge). Unlike in English, the Latin borrowing "gratis" is the common everyday word for things that are free of charge. Free software is known as "fri programvare", whereas free-of-charge software (a.k.a. freeware) is "gratis programvare".

<comment><USER17> In German there are at least 3 words that describe these somewhat related concepts. The word "Frei" is mostly meant as in freedom but can also describe absence of something. The latter form is usually used in compound words like "kostenfrei" which means "free of charge" however, most of those words can also be compound with "los" like in "kostenlos" which means the same thing and is used more often in this case. We also use "gratis" but mostly if something is given complimentary in addition to something else. Something like "buy one get one free" for example. Then we also have "umsonst" which is actually not related but commonly used by people to mean the same thing as "kostenlos". However, it really means "for nothing" like in "ich habe vermutlich all das umsonst aufgeschrieben" or "i probably wrote all of this up for nothing". So the differentiation between getting something for free and something being free (as in freedom) is quite clear. However, there is no german word for freeware as far as i can tell and nobody i know says something like "Freie Software" instead of "free software" or "kostenlose software" instead of "freeware" but that might be caused by my circle and is more often used then i recognized :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> One thing that helps is simply not engaging with tiresome people. I ignore painful questions and let someone else on the mailing list answer. I make requests once in code review, and then ignore that PR if there is tedious argumentation.

</comment><comment><USER19> I kinda have a similar situation. I upload my hobby projects on GitHub. It has about 90 repos by now. Most of them are just garbage that no one looked at. One of them amassed about 3000+ stars over time. People keep sending me numerous pull requests, but I'm very picky about the coding style and I pretty much ignore all of them. I also ignore most issue reports and feature requests because I'm not interested. Some people asked to hand over the project to someone else, but even picking a good person is a huge hassle to me. So I just left the project pretty much dead as it is. Still, it somehow keeps getting more stars.

Am I a bad/irresponsible person? Since anyone can fork the project I don't think I'm doing disservice to the community (whatever it is). Also I'm frankly a little annoyed that I am getting this by just using my personal repo and mostly being passive (I've never promoted my project anywhere, except uploading it on PyPI).

 _Edit_ I can see that there would be a moral issue if I used my GitHub creds for my personal gain (such as applying for a job). But I've never done that. Again, I've never asked for this and I just want to play in my sandbox.

</comment><comment><USER20> I maintain a few very different packages, and have had some good experiences and bad experiences. What I maintain ranges in size and complexity from Javascript libraries, database add-ons, and virtual synthesizer modules.

I've dealt with hostile users, and hostile packagers, but ultimately I've stuck with it due to some quite incredible challenges and communications I've received, ranging from very difficult problems that they've reached out for help solving, causing me to rethink some solutions, to very nice notes asking if it's ok to use software that I released as building-blocks (what it was designed and specifically licensed for). But, there are still those people that I dread hearing from, that make me want to just stop -- thankfully there are enough of the other kind, and interesting problems, to keep me going.

As for donations - I have only put donation links on the virtual synthesizer modules, and have received a grand total of $5, not exactly game changing, but worth a pint of beer.

So, I maintain for another day, maybe not as actively as some would like, but at least at a level that keeps me from burning out on it.

</comment><comment><USER21> Having worked on commercial applications with freemium models, I've had the distinct impression that the free users are more demanding and pushy and rude than the paying users.

I'm not certain about that though, because there are always like 10x or more free users than paying users, so the volume of interaction with free users is simply much greater. It would be interesting to study and find out whether free users are more entitled than paying users, statistically. Anyone know if such research has already been done?

</comment><comment><USER22> These "problems" are not specific to open source projects: Whenever you provide a service of some kind, very few people will thank you, most will just use it and another very few will be very vocal about where, how and why you are an incompetent idiot who is just waiting for their advice.

But the "problem" really does lie with you if you cannot tell people they got what they paid for (in case of pro bono work, like FOSS-development, even more).

Once upon a time I organized an annual pretty large demonstration for the legalization of Cannabis in Europe. After every event, at the first meeting, we had people show up who understood we desperately needed their advice. You can either let them hurt you or you sit back, light up and play ping-pong with them... Listen 10 minutes, then spend 10 seconds to confront them with reality (actual laws and regulations, the practicalities of your work or simply your experience of actually /doing/). It can be fun.

But wether it is fun or a dreadful experience is only defined by you.

<comment><USER23> I organise the yearly family Christmas gathering back in our village whenever I am in my home country. The deal is that every working adult is supposed to contribute a few dollars towards food and drinks. It really isn't much money. Everyone is supposed to chip in, in whatever way they are comfortable. No one is paid to attend and no one is forced to attend.

Back to your sentiments, the amount of nonsense I have to put up with from some family members is unbelievable. Luckily there are some good family members who usually step in and put them in their place. So yes people are a problem, even our own family members give us problems. I still organise get together and ignore the naysayers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> My advice? Don't.

FOSS, in my experience, will not make you money, will not get you a job, and will gradually suck up more and more of your free time until you have none left.

In can also be tedious and frustrating, especially dealing with users.

Usually if any money is made off of your labor, it's made by other people, and they never contribute any of it back.

Spend your time on something you can monetize.

</comment><comment><USER25> A lot here applies to non-free software as well: if you omit the 'free' in the title and article, most of the statements still hold.

</comment><comment><USER26> > It means you are trusted. It means you are trustworthy. It means you are > skilled enough.

It means those things to the org that made you the maintainer. It means nothing in particular to the users, bug reporters, and people who offer up fixes and features who don't already know you.

> If you are open to review other people's contributions, there is a high > change you will find challengers disguised as contributors.

New devs making a first-time pull request typically do not yet trust a project's dev process. They also realize that the project has no way to trust their own skillset. To break the stalemate the new dev typically "oversells" their patch set and errs on the side of TMI to the point of being defensive.

Doesn't it fall to the maintainer to keep things positive, clear, and on-topic in such situations? If the org takes that as a necessary skill of a maintainer and mentors to it, it's at least _possible_ to have a decent experience as a maintainer. If not, then I speculate any maintainer would interpret those skills as out of scope for project maintenance.

I also speculate they'll interpret each "challenge" as a distraction from their duties and steadily progress toward an increasing likelihood of burnout.

</comment><comment><USER27> I am running a free job posting website (postjobfree.com). Every day I receive about a hundred emails with various requests, questions and complaints (from recruiters, job seekers and operators of other job boards).

Some of these emails are negative or even rude. But that negativity does not really bother me. I evaluate level of "Negativity" in the email to understand the nature of the request better (Is the request realistic? Is the request fair? Could our team realistically prevent that negativity in the first place?)

Requests like: "How dare you not (use your free time to) fix this ultra high priority bug that is affecting me?" -- I do not even consider negative. In fact, that is a positive comment to me, because it may indicate an opportunity (to make our job board better or to even add another revenue stream).

The complainer in such case already did some of the work for our job board: identified potential problem, described how to reproduce it, defined the use case explaining why fixing that problem is important.

If that is not helpful feedback, then what kind of feedback is more useful?

<comment><USER28> Even though bad faith criticism and complaints can be useful, I find there is a still an insurmountable problem sometimes: it can be too time- and energy- consuming to handle the sheer quantity and/or intensity.

Sometimes, especially at "political moments" (like elections in a project I was involved in recently - and I wasn't even a candidate), it can feel like being overwhelmed by a tidal wave.

If I only have 1 spare hour per day for a project, there is neither time nor emotional energy to handle emails that are so full of demanding questions that it would take 3 hours to process carefully and reply carefully. And if you don't reply carefully, they send you more, writing longer and getting more obsessive (and sometimes personal) as if they sense you'll engage them in a long conversation, so being careful in the first place is a net win.

Even if it only took 1 hour, that's still used up all the time I was going to use on other productive things, the "real work".

I am in awe of maintainers who seem to reply to an onslaught of demanding questioners, and somehow satisfy them.

For me, these are relevant:

"Assholes are Killing Your Project" (Donnie Berkholz) [https://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing- yo...](https://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project- mdc-2017) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZSli7QW4rg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZSli7QW4rg)

<comment><USER27> > If I only have 1 spare hour per day for a project

... then your project is unlikely to become useful anyway. 5-7 hours per week is just too little in order to make a meaningful progress in a software project.

And if you are not getting critical feedback from customers, you are unlikely to know the right direction to develop your project.

> [https://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing- > yo...](https://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your- > project-mdc-2017)

According to Donnie Berkholz' definition - I do not communicate with assholes at all, because demanding and even rude feedback does not make me "feel oppressed, humiliated, de-energized, or belittled".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I definitely appreciate every free software maintainer out there. Hats off for your hard work.

What I appreciate a bit less is a burnt out maintainers that does not ask for help and has his hands full. Hats off for your hard work, we use your library and we want to help. You are not alone.

What I dislike is a burnt out maintainer / not so great person of multiple important libraries of a popular language that randomly closes issues and PRs without explaining the reasons and then blocking people once asked why he did close an issue that was still relevant.

If it's a personal project open sourced, sure, you have the absolute freedom to do whatever you like. If it's a multi-maintainer project that has a huge piece of the market, then that's absolutely not okay - it causes a toxic environment that only damages the library and it's future.

</comment><comment><USER30> > People really do find their way to you.

Sigh... and everyone else thinks programming is a lonely job.

</comment><comment><USER31> My advice to other OSS project maintainers - unless you are paid to do so in a 9 to 5 job, just walk away. It's not worth the aggravation. I just woke up to the fact that the majority of my self-entitled users were working for multi- billion dollar firms and they were not contributing a line of code or stitch of documentation. With a handful of exceptions, you can't make a living off of open source alone. Patreon and OpenCollective is a great way to make coffee money.

<comment><USER24> >I just woke up to the fact that the majority of my self-entitled users were working for multi-billion dollar firms and they were not contributing a line of code or stitch of documentation. With a handful of exceptions, you can't make a living off of open source alone.

And those multi-billion dollar firms will show no greater willingness hire you, despite relying on your software, which they also won't pay for.

Zed Shaw has spoken about this:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19375895#19376190](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19375895#19376190)

> There was sort of like this unwritten contract in open source that we had; > the unwritten contract with corporations was if you wrote open source that > they were using, you got some sort of job, or consulting fees, or at least > some respect so that way you could find jobs.

> ... I started to realize that "No, that contract has completely been > rewritten. It's totally different now. If you write open source, you're not > gonna get a job", and now what's been happening - and part of my tweet storm > and whatnot about open source - is that it's gone the opposite direction, > where what I see is sort of like almost direct action to prevent open source > developers from making money…

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> What is the latest, state of the art way to earn money this way ?

<comment><USER3> Completely not proven yet, but I'm convinced: ask for it. Make it easy for people to pay you. Find a way (and reason) for people to invoice you for payment. Tell people that you expect payment even if they don't legally have to pay. Make it part of the "community ethos" that payment is a natural and good part of working with the community.

Free as in freedom, not beer. Ask for beer and give freedom in return.

I have this idea in the back of my head. Where I live in Japan, in the countryside they just put up these vegetable stalls. Nobody is there. There is a box and on it is say "100 yen" (about 1 dollar US). There are bags of fruit and vegetables. You take a bag and you put a 100 yen coin in the box. Not rocket science and nobody who isn't starving won't put the coin in (and if you are starving, take the damn fruit!)

You don't need leverage, you need it to be the norm that people pay for the software. That requires a cultural shift. Luckily, community cultures can be crafted (I think... maybe I'm wrong). People need to feel that if they pay for the software, you will make more (which they want). If they don't pay for the software, you will not make more (which they do not want). I think that's all it probably takes to earn money at this. I think... One day I'll test that theory.

<comment><USER33> >Make it easy for people to pay you.

There's definitely a startup opportunity for this - making it super easy to receive payment as an OSS developer (either as a business or sole developer) and making it easy for businesses to pay.

If I saw a new issue on github and it came from a corporate "OSS gold account member" which potentially comes with $$$ attached I'd be much more inclined to implement it.

As it is my motivation drops off fairly quickly unless it's a serious bug or it's a relatively easy ask.

I think it would be much easier to get budget if the cost to get expedited OSS bugfixes were subscription based and accounts gets to deal with a professional billing department rather than "One Man and His Hat Inc. in Iowa".

<comment> frosted-flakes This could be a part of GitHub. Imagine there was a '$' button beside the star button, and each time you clicked it you gave one dollar to the maintainer of the repo, with a counter beside it. The '$ counter' would only be visible to the user and the repo maintainers.

GitHub is the de facto hub of open source/free software, and if it was as easy to donate to a repo as it is to star it, I imagine more people would do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> One serious problem with most of OSS libraries is that, no project will tell you, what's the upsides and downside of the project, or the things the project could do and couldn't do. So, most of the time, the user must spend serious efforts to evaluate if it's OK for them or not.

Of course, this is hard and often not reasonable to do. But at least, let's do things based on some assumption.

</comment><comment><USER30> The author maintained a calendar app and received this level of "appreciation".

Imagine if he was maintaining a core piece of software more people use, like: a web browser or SSH client...

</comment><comment><USER35> You need a thick skin to maintain free software, and that's not something that you can grow... either you have it or not. It's not for everybody.

The biggest mistake some software maintainers make is showing empathy for abusive and unreasonable users. Most of them simply deserve to have the door slammed in their faces. If you can't do that, then you'll lose your time and stress yourself.

<comment><USER36> Having empathy for people who are trying to engage with you constructively while denying it to those who are wasting your time is both very important and incredibly hard, in any circumstance.

> deserve to have the door slammed in their faces

Totally, but you need to (try to) be careful not to slam it in the potentially-helpful peoples' faces. There's one very popular open project that I've moved away from due to getting tired of seeing seemingly every single question/suggestion being met with "you don't like it, start writing some code".

Not to say that _my_ decision not to use that project is significant in any way. I'm just one anonymous person. Just a point that it may be possible to be too aggressively self-defensive.

I totally get that _I 'm_ not entitled to anything, and you (maintainer) _are_ entitled to do what you choose with your time. It's just that constantly, repeatedly pointing those facts out isn't going to win you much cooperation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> One of the things I've started to wrap my head around lately is the essential inhumanity of technology. It's a near-daily occurrence of mine to having to deal with something that's just plain dumb, and just have no way at all to fix it. I can't make the system better, I can't make any kind of suggestion to anyone so that my situation won't come up again.

There's nothing to do but to just accept it, put whatever workarounds I can come up with in place, hope I can remember what I did before the next time it comes up, and move on. It regularly moves me to anger, with nowhere to put it. It's not fair to unload it on your coworkers or your manager. So I'll vent a little bit, still trying to find the best way to do this, and just hope I'm not a raging alcoholic by the time I'm 40.

But I'm a skilled tech worker whose getting paid very well in order to deal with these things. If they're not just douchebags, I would guess that most people who get unreasonably angry at OSS maintainers are not getting paid very well to deal and are likely the target for generated externalities. They need a focus, someone to hold responsible.

But tech is inhuman and so there is no one to hold accountable. And if ever there was someone to hold accountable, by God get rid of that chink in the armor! The OSS maintainer thus becomes that chink.

I sometimes wonder if the brave new world that the West is building is not the great horn of plenty that we all believe it to be, but rather a monster that consumes the best parts of us and spits the rest out, too cruel to just put its victims out of their misery.

Then I remember that inhuman bureaucracy is nothing new, and pour another glass.

<comment><USER38> This reminds me of the author of libcurl saying that he gets a ton of emails from people asking about their cars infotainment system, because when they try to find an email address to contact for support, the closest thing they can find is his address in the libcurl license text:

[https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/11/14/i-have-toyota- corola/](https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/11/14/i-have-toyota-corola/)

<comment><USER37> Yeah, I remember that.

This sort of thing seems to hit senior citizens harder because of their general unfamiliarity with technology. So they use the toolset they're familiar with, to find somebody to get on the phone to make them deal with the problem.

I'm tempted to take vicious glee in the notion that this is the comeuppance Baby Boomers are getting for selling future generations down the river to fund their own retirements. If they could have just shared the post-war wealth equally their children wouldn't have needed to destroy the world that made it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> >You may not feel the joy of working on what you work anymore. You may want to move on. You may also not do that due to the sense of responsibility that you have to your code, your community, and the people who use your software.

I run a popular website, and I switched from selling books, to free content.

I make 6 figs at the day job, but put in 2-3 hours a night on figuring out new ways to save time or save money. The occasional email is nice, but its a very temporary feeling. I consider it my responsibility to society, so things will be free, but it also means only 1-2 people study this.

Capitalism and growth might cause me to change.

</comment><comment><USER40> This is true. But then you get maintainers like Ulrich Drepper.

<comment><USER41> Context?

<comment><USER40> [https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/](https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I use a lot of open source packages, and I'm immensely grateful to anyone who maintains one.

I also want to mention that I donate whenever the option is available.

However, here is my personal opinion that will most likely get downvoted to oblivion: if you are putting a tool out there for others to use (not just software but any tool), then you are responsible for its wellbeing and maintenance, regardless of whether you charge money for it.

In my opinion, it is irresponsible to release something, _anything_ , and then abandon it.

If you don't want to be responsible for it, for example if it's a hobby project or something, keep the repo private. If you release it with the intention of maintaining it, and your circumstances change later, do your best to find another maintainer.

If you want to charge money for it, do that.

But if your attitude is gonna be "I'll work on this when I want, however much I want, and you should just be grateful for what you get and deal with it" then, well, that's where my sympathy and respect for you ends.

<comment><USER43> I don't understand the downvotes for this. I feel that by making something public and open source, there is an implicit assumption (unless otherwise stated) that the software is _worth_ sharing.

The problem is that this puts what I consider the right amount of responsibility squarely in the middle of a continuum: library authors shouldn't be totally free of obligations to others, but the insane abuse that people level against open source maintainers is also obviously unacceptable.

<comment><USER44> This rule accepted in general would mean that all students who put their homework on github are doing something wrong.

Or that all professionals who just play around technology or mini projects are required to keep them secret until they are totally sure they will maintain it forever.

That is just not workable and overly limited.

While owner can not expect gratitude, the "I'll work on this when I want, however much I want, and you should just take it or leave it" is absolutely fine and should be fine. Just because it exists on the internet does not entitle the rest of the world to anything.

<comment><USER42> Students putting their homework on github is totally fine _as long as they clearly state that in the readme_.

<comment><USER44> So maybe assume no maintenance unless stated in readme.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>