Wozniak: Innovative projects, not tests, should determine a student's grade - <AUTHOR> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215637/DVR_box_is_dying_Woz_wisdom_and_other_cool_things_learned_at_SNW <comment><USER3> Education is hard. After working as a TA for freshmen for some semesters, I categorized college classes after this fashion:

10% of students succeed, no matter what you do to them. Those seemed to be the hacker types.

10% of students fail, no matter what you do for them(reasons range from cheating to family deaths).

80% of students mark their boxes and do okay; better teaching helps them, worse teaching harms them. They would correspond to the 8-5 workers, IMO.

At the heart of educational discussions sit some deep philosophical questions, such as:

Nature or Nurture?

What handholding level is appropriate?

How much moral leadership is appropriate?

Education systems: simple knowledge or more?

Is education for the individual or for the society?

What expectations do you have for someone who graduates high school? College?

What does equality mean when people are different?

These are not simply answered questions. There is considerable nuance needed to begin discussing them in any real-world situation.

A(The?) core issue relates to the human beings involved - to give a glossy example: some people like being factory workers. Others hate it. What education system handles this problem?

Another major issue is that the cycle time on a k-12 educational system is at least 16 or so years (likely something more like 30 years). Failing fast is problematic, and leaves human detritus...

I consider the US public educational system deeply flawed. I think that Woz's ideas are worth investigating. There are a multiplicity of educational reform ideas out there, and some work better than others. Woz's has the advantage that he's actually taught, so it may have a better chance than others of being reality based instead of pure ideology. Also, he's a genius. :-)

<comment><USER4> These are complex questions. Which means they probably should NOT be left to a political process to decide. Parents and the students themselves (eventually) should decide.

Will some make mistakes and fail? Yep. But that's better than the entire system being hobbled, which is our current situation.

We have a tendency of trying to take over everyone's decision just because some suck at making decisions. We seem to want people to think they are like everyone else rather than experiencing consequences and learning from feedback.

I watched Waiting For Superman the other night and apparently this is the exact same problem that is preventing the public schools from getting and developing the great teachers that great teaching requires. The unions want us to think all teachers are the same and do whatever they can to stop bad teachers from being fired.

Anyone concerned about the quality of education should check out this movie.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I went to a college that seemed to follow this belief. Sarah Lawrence College, in NY, lets you take 3 classes a semester, where half of your credit for each class comes from a semester long project that relates at least tangentially to the course subject. I ended up dropping out after 2.5 years to move to SF, but I don't think I would have lasted that long if not for the awesome projects I got to work on.

As examples of the type of I did for my CS-related courses: for Computer Science: An Accelerated Introduction (Python), I made an app that parses an iTunes XML dump, hits Last.fm's API for additional info on each track and artist, and uses that data to generate playlists. For Data Structures, I built a 3d printer for the college that uses Java firmware. For Robotics, I implemented a Neural Network-based bot that predicted opponents moves in low- limit Texas Hold Em poker. For another class, I wrote a bot for Eve Online that would perform margin trading.

These projects I found to be more valuable to me once I had started my career than much of the time spent in the classroom.

<comment><USER6> That sounds like my dream hacker college. As a drop-out myself, I am thinking of going back to school sometime in the future, and wondering if SLC might be right place for me.

If you don't mind me asking, why did you drop out? Were there anything wrong with the school/system that made you move to SF without finishing your degree, or was it only for personal reasons?

Would really appreciate if you could share your overall experience at SLC.

<comment><USER5> There were a number of factors involved in my decision to drop out. At the root were family/financial issues, although these were not dire enough that I was forced, per se, to drop out. At the end of the day it came down to the school's limitations on how much CS I could learn. The school is very small (1300 undergrads), with very few of the students interested in pursuing CS in any real depth. I have only great things to say about the two professors in the department, but due to lack of student interest in the programs, there are few advanced classes available. Looking at the 2010-2011 Course Catalog ([http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science- mathematics/c...](http://www.slc.edu/undergraduate/study/science- mathematics/computer-science/courses.html)), there are only two CS courses available (one for each semester) which require the student to have some prerequisite experience/knowledge (Databases and Robotics).

The other limitation you're faced with are the credit caps. SLC is a liberal arts school where, regardless of what you study, you can only receive a Bachelor of Arts degree. They cap you at 80 credits in Science/Mathematics, with a maximum of 50 of those coming from Computer Science courses. At the time I dropped out, I had 40 CS credits and 50 Science/Math Credits. Presuming I had stayed on for the additional year and a half to get a degree, I would have been limited to taking only 10 of my remaining 45 credits in what I genuinely wanted to be learning. Given the cost of the school (the most expensive school in the US), I felt that I would be better off 1.5 years down the line by getting paid to learn what I wanted to be learning, rather than paying to learn things that I didn't, simply for the sake of a degree.

It's actually been 1.5 years since I made this decision, I would have graduated next month, and I have absolutely no regrets about having made the decision I did. I'd like to make a blog post sometime about everything that's happened in the past year and a half. I've been considering finishing my degree at some point because there are a few fundamentals courses that I missed (Algorithms, Compilers, to name a few). I'm sort of torn at this point between making the decision to do it continuing to work 9-5 for the next 2+ years while taking courses online to get a degree, or whether I'm better off making the plunge back into an 70 hour a week startup lifestyle which leaves no room for online edu. I'm unsure of which leaves me in a better position 2 years from now. Have any of you finished an education online while working? Were you happy you did so?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It should be noted that unlike so many of his tech peers that Woz spent some time as an actual teacher after he achieved his fame and fortune.

<comment><USER8> You mean "unlike so many of his tech peers with opinions on the education system", right? Because otherwise that fact is as irrelevant as the fact that Woz has never been a policeman. Or is teaching especially related to tech in some way I'm not seeing?

Edit: why the downvotes? I seriously don't understand why the parent comment is mentioning that apparently irrelevant fact; I'm not just being nitpicky.

<comment><USER3> Unlike many of us who pee on the education system, Woz knows experientially what he's talking about in regards to education, having been on both sides of the podium.

So it's very relevant.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for explaining. You're saying it's relevant because there are "many of us who pee on the education system". In other words, my clarification of "tech peers" in michaelpinto's comment as those "with opinions on the education system" is exactly what he means.

Woz's being a teacher only is relevant if you know that many tech people disparage the education system. It seems my guess at a correction in my previous comment was indeed what michaelpinto meant, which means that it explains his comment to those who do not know this trait of tech people. Why, since my comment contained useful information, was it downvoted? (I have no idea if you, pnathan, downvoted me, but I am curious to hear from anyone who can explain.)

<comment><USER9> No. The idea is that many people who propose changes to the education system don't have much experience with it, but Woz is not one of those people. Who would you take legal advice from: a lawyer or your neighbor? Who would you trust slicing into your brain: a surgeon or some random Joe?

<comment><USER8> I understood that from the beginning. I was never confused about why having experience with teaching would allow one to better propose changes to the education system. I agree that knowing that Woz has experience tells you something useful about whether you can trust his ideas.

The only point I was ever confused about was why michaelpinto's comment not only praised Woz for having teaching experience but also disparaged his "tech peers" for not having it, when I didn't see a link between Woz's tech peers and education. (Now I see that the link is that apparently, his tech peers are fond of attacking the education system.)

I see now that I hadn't made it clear enough which point I was confused about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> a 'project-centric' education might be great for hackers (i.e., everyone who reads this website), but remember that not everybody wants to build stuff for a living, and even for people who do want to 'build stuff', the kinds of things they might want to build likely aren't as easy to get started with as software.

what kinds of projects would you propose for kids who want to be lawyers? doctors? hairstylists? law enforcement? military? basically anything _except_ for engineering?

<comment><USER11> > what kinds of projects would you propose for kids who want to be lawyers?

Briefs

> doctors?

Treatment plans

> hairstylists?

Haircuts

> law enforcement?

Investigative reports. Martial arts performances/fights. Volunteering.

> military?

Strategy/tactical reports. Meeting fitness goals. Engineering projects. Volunteering at soup kitchens. Running logistical missions.

> basically anything except for engineering?

What the heck do you think the rest of the world is doing all day? Everyone does projects. Work is work.

<comment><USER12> And what would you do to expose these same kids to other worlds and ideas so that they don't end up as adults with tunnel vision?

<comment><USER11> Sorry, I don't understand the context of your question.

<comment><USER12> It sounds to some degree like we're advocating vocational education.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> In my opinion, it would be very difficult for a national educational system to accurately grade creative projects like these, and even more difficult for these to be standardized across school systems so that the grades could be meaningful to colleges, employers, etc.

<comment><USER14> That's exactly why shouldn't have a "national education system" or standardization of schooling. We need education that fits the student not one size fits all factory schooling. As for meaningful ways for colleges and employers to measure candidates... how about meaningful innovative projects. The last developer I hired completed a innovative project (on contract) for us before we hired him. I would never hire off a resume and interview alone. I'd ask the candidate to show me what he/she has created.

<comment><USER15> I don't know anything about the education system in USA but looking at the numbers the university I am currently attending has to deal with every year and the amount you have to deal with when hiring I can bet the difference in size is quite big.

If we look at the university I attend, it currently has above 16000 students, with I would assume an average time as student of 3 years. The program I attend had more than 3000 applicants out of which 200 were selected. Not all programs have that ratio but I would not find it strange if the average was a ratio of 10:1. Using these numbers we thus have (16000/3)*10=~53000 students applying each year. (I did a quick search and my numbers are surprisingly correct.) The university has 3 weeks to make its selections.

Please tell me how to do that with your system.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Grades are fundamentally supposed to measure what/how much a student has learned. (though their success in this regard is debatable) I don't know that success on innovative projects measures learning. It'd also be a real b*tch for folks who are not innovative thinkers.

This is not to say it's an impossible idea, but we'd have to verify that generally speaking, performing well on projects correlates to learning- either that, or give up on the idea of grades representing learning.

</comment><comment><USER17> I would like to go just a little OT here and say Steve Wozniak is truly a genius and it was not until reading Founders At Work that I completely understood how much so. His talents unquestionably span far beyond some mere mortals like myself.

</comment><comment><USER18> I dropped out of engineering and did a fine arts degree for exactly this reason.

</comment><comment><USER19> The weirdest thing happened to me with regards to this story.

Yesterday I said to myself, that if I were to ever be a lecturer, I would want a course structured more like real-life. I even sent an email to myself, to remember to come back to it at the appropriate time.

This was the text of my email:

 _Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:27 AM subject: Ideas for designing a university course mailed-by gmail.com

hide details 6:27 AM (19 hours ago)

This is for whenever I want to start lecturing.

Don't use tests or exams.

Use projects.

Both individual and team.

Encourage students to come and present their progress every week - <USER2> that I will rip them apart if they are wasting time._

\-- end of email ---

Definitely not comprehensive, but I have been wondering why the 20th century educational system has failed as badly as it has. Not just in the US, but even in Jamaica too. I think structuring it so that each student is accountable for what they have done (project-wise) would produce much better results than having them learn how to take a test.

Then I come here and see a top story from Woz basically saying the same thing.

This is just one of those moments, that might seem silly - but it's weird.

<comment><USER20> I read a course on Python for a semester, and I tried to use a similar approach: relatively few tests, a minor project for warmup and a major project (with emphasis on attendance & communication). I think it went fine, but it's not as easy as it looks. In particular, students would "show up", but it's not easy to motivate them to do more serious work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> GOD YES

I totally want something like this in education. I have a learning disability. I can't remember stuff so easily but I do love making things and that is how I learn best.

College, as much as I loved it, was always this sisyphean treadmill of quizzes, homeworks, and exams -- almost always covered in red. The cycle was, do homeworks, think I did it right, get back bad marks. Re-do homework, hoping I did it right. Take exams, fail exams because I couldn't tell if I did them right with HWs. It's like Waterfall and Education put together.

One class I took, Systems Programming, was the most helpful because there were no real tests or homeworks -- it was projects. It got my only A in college from this course, mostly because of the MUD I wrote for the final project. Other classes where this worked was English Lit, science labs but not the accompanying courses (sort of), others I can't remember.

</comment><comment><USER22> This fits in somewhat with the earlier discussion about Scott Adams on How to get real education (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2426459>).

Instead of learning students "to remember what art looked like just in case anyone asked", they should learn skills that requires them to acquire knowledge.

Sure a lot of education 'fakes' this by focusing on projects, but what useful skills can you honestly acquire in 10 weeks when your attention has to be divided over just as many courses?

</comment><comment><USER23> My favorite speaker at TEDxPhilly talked about project based learning: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS2IPfWZQM4>

</comment><comment><USER24> This is why you should take part on StudentCompetitions.com to show-n-prove what you got instead of getting that grade everyone else got. Soon new platforms will be rolled out. Without getting into details; imagine GitHub but for everything - in competition-format. If it sounds like a bad idea I just wasn't detailed enough. ;)

<comment><USER24> Sorry, here is the link: <http://studentcompetitions.com>

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Backstage: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxVPLEgzk5I>

and as far as I know, his speech ?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr0OkhCw4bA>

</comment><comment><USER26> I think the idea is good but such a system could probably be gamed easily. I am sure students would start to pad their resumes with great sounding projects without any substance.

<comment><USER24> That's why I mentined the competition site above - winning a competition against hundredsthousands of other students is quite a substance - in the same way no one can claim they built something that u had shared on your GitHub- account with a timestamp and blogposts long before they claimed that. CVs got ~no substance for the record.

<comment><USER24> To clearify: I rather employ someone based on GitHub code than their CV/resume that is filled with bullshit anyway.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> For the most part, I think Apple's products are wonderful.

And what Jobs & co. have done over the last 14 years or so has been absolutely amazing.

But I think Apple would be even better with Woz.

</comment><comment><USER28> Having read a bunch of stories and comments on HN about education, I suddenly have an urge to send my future kids to Montessori or Waldorf schools.

</comment><comment><USER4> Finding your passion is so important in life. It makes sense that you shouldn't wait 12 years to begin.

<comment><USER29> The wait can kill passion as is my case and I'm only 4 years in.

<comment><USER4> You're 9 years old?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Hackers are by definition counter-culture and seeks wisdom in going against crowd thinking. If there were no schools, hackers would go to school. If schools taught projects, hackers would do rote learning.

All hackers urge the same thing: "Think Different"</comment>


NDC Oslo 2015 – Phoenix – a framework for the modern web - <AUTHOR> http://www.chrismccord.com/blog/2015/06/26/ndc-oslo-2015-phoenix-a-framework-for-the-modern-web/ <comment><AUTHOR> I found this one pretty good to get an idea of the thing</comment>


GitHub Codespaces - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/features/codespaces <comment><USER2> Interestingly, it seems that Microsoft hast just renamed its "Visual Studio Online" (which was basically the same as this new product) to "Visual Studio Codespaces". So it seems that they are merging these two products. (See: [https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/services/visual-studio- co...](https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/services/visual-studio-codespaces/))

EDIT: They actually announced the renaming of the product a couple of days ago: [https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/30/microsofts-visual- studio-o...](https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/30/microsofts-visual-studio- online-code-editor-is-now-visual-studio-codespaces-and-gets-a-price-drop/)

<comment><USER3> Codespaces uses the same underlying technology as Visual Studio Codespaces to bring a fully GitHub-native experience to our GitHub users. We've been working with multiple teams on the Visual Studio side to make this happen (I work as the product lead on Codespaces)

<comment><USER4> Similarly Github Actions is reusing a lot of Azure Pipelines under the hood.

One of the most impressive parts about Microsoft's recent acquisitions is how quickly essentially two separate companies are now sharing code. It's hard enough to get different teams/products in the same company to use shared code in a meaningful way, and Microsoft has accomplished it with a new company.

<comment><USER5> All that is nice. But who are they building this for? Who is asking for this stuff?

<comment><USER4> For Github Actions, the product launch has been a major success and has become a new monetizable product. Anecdotally, I've heard of some companies moving their Jenkins/Circle CI/Travis CI workflows over to it, better proof is the sheer number of Github Actions that are now easy to install. This also allows Github to compete directly with Bitbucket and Bitbucket pipelines.

If your question is about who is asking for Github Codespaces, I'm not totally sure. Personally, for small changes it would be nice to be able to edit directly in Github but I certainly wouldn't pay for it. I imagine that core why behind this product release (besides the fact that most of this functionality was already pre-built and easy to reuse) is that it improves the user experience for anyone working from their chromeOS device, tablet and phone improving brand loyalty and capturing new users, especially students who may only have chromeOS devices.

<comment><USER6> As an OSS developer, Github actions make a lot of sense and is very welcome since it's very easy to setup (now! it was impossible in the beginning) and if you use bash scripts/npm scripts AND a tiny bit of workflow code then they are very agnostic as well.

I am unsure about this Github Codespaces though, I'll be testing it but I am fairly skeptical about invest a lot in Github-specific tooling beyond what is needed by a typical repo. It seems like Github has been trying to "extend" git into a proprietary phase for a while, and now with Microsoft backing it I'll wait to see if it's still the same old concept of locking you in deep and then do as they please. Not sure, it does look like they are going nice for now, but I personally prefer to wait.

This Codespaces doesn't solve a specific need I could point out like Actions did before, but maybe I'm just not their target.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Ah, this really makes sense with all of the recent work they've done on VSCode's remote development capabilities.

\- An early announcement on their focus: [https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2019/05/02/remote- develo...](https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2019/05/02/remote-development)

\- Most (all?) of their recent VSCode updates include improvements to remote development. i.e.: [https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_44#_remote- developm...](https://code.visualstudio.com/updates/v1_44#_remote-development)

\- Facebook partnering and becoming an early, heavy adopter: [https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2019/11/19/faceboo...](https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2019/11/19/facebook- microsoft-partnering-remote-development/)

<comment><USER8> Their remote development capability is amazing and was quite a game changer for me. Having a nice ide where all of the plugins work on a remote server as if everything is local is so nice!

<comment><USER9> The SSH plugin is insanely good. I can dev from a Windows machine and SSH into my Mac and do React Native (native) iOS modules. Even my zsh shell acts as if it's local. Running `pod install` from Windows. It's seemless.

<comment><USER10> +1 to this. $DAYJOB has some proprietary ssh handling, but I can dev from my work-issued macbook into a Linux desktop in the office and vscode "just works"

<comment><USER11> Agreed. It's completely changed my productivity for the better. I don't even remember the code is remote.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> My hope and suspicion is this will have a significant impact on the number of improvements to open-source projects and particularly little things like js components.

Just in the last few days, I've come across a few very minor bugs, with a one- line fix. In order to make that change, I currently need to fork the repo, download it, make the change (turn off my prettier or adapt to the repo's) then make the PR.

I'm hoping with this I can just make a PR in the owner's package. It's the difference between a 10 minute commit and a 1 minute change.

<comment><USER13> Github has had a built-in editor for almost a decade, you just had to click the Edit button in the file: [https://github.blog/2011-04-26-forking-with-the- edit-button/](https://github.blog/2011-04-26-forking-with-the-edit-button/) (the button has since changed look to a Pencil icon)

This is not to disparage you, just to note that it may not have such a great effect.

<comment><USER14> You still have to fork

<comment><USER15> Because implementing a shadow fork is sooo hard.

<comment><USER14> You must be fun at parties

<comment><USER15> I think you missed the part where i was being positive to new ideas and not just being a pointless debbie downer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Must be fun for @sytse to watch these GitHub announcements every year, where they consistently release the same thing GitLab rolled out two years prior.

Codespaces -> [https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/web_ide/](https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/web_ide/)

Insights -> [https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/insights/](https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/insights/)

GH Actions -> [https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/](https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/)

etc

<comment><USER17> Gitlab is a bit of a mess though:

a) Gitlab.com is ridiculously slow. Even the CEO admits they failed to invest in it.

b) You can't disable features you don't need so you end up with a sidebar full of Kubernetes and Security features for a Git project dedicated to documentation.

c) Staggering amount of open issues and merge requests so you feel discouraged from even raising anything since it just gets lost in the weeds.

d) On the main Git project screen there are 15 buttons. Including again ones for "Add Kubernetes cluster" or "Add License" which you can't remove or hide even though it's irrelevant for 99% of Git projects.

e) Feature set and billing are all over the place. It has great project/issue management but in order to get say roadmaps you need to have everyone in your team on the $99/month plan. Even though they aren't developers. So in some cases Gitlab ends up being much more expensive than Jira + Github.

I could keep going. But Gitlab is an example of a company that is moving too fast and needs much better product management. I would take Github's more deliberate approach any day.

<comment><USER18> Thank you for your feedback!

Regarding performance, we've made some recent improvements (here's one example: [https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/30507#note_293...](https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/30507#note_293967133)), but we know we need to do more. We're actively working to improve our sitespeed ([https://gitlab.com/gitlab- com/www-gitlab-com/-/issues/7154](https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab- com/-/issues/7154)), and we have several other improvements in process this quarter.

Regarding disabling features and the Git project screen, our UX research team has heard this feedback from other users. It's fair feedback, and we're looking at how to address it.

<comment><USER19> I love GitLab's transparency and the decentralized concept; But I can't comprehend how some basic features take as long as they do to get done. It took GitLab _3 YEARS_ to add a "What's new" link to the header: [https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/16653](https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/16653) ... and it still isn't closed.

Issues fall through the cracks because there's no internal health oversight, take this issue for example: [https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/21907](https://gitlab.com/gitlab- org/gitlab/-/issues/21907) It simply ceased to exist because the original staff member left GitLab.

I've also seen community MRs with weeks of work go to waste because GL staff couldn't take proper ownership/responsibility to see them through.

I think having a "all hands" week where all work stops except for going through current GitLab.org issues, fixing labeling/priorities, adding related issues and pinging the correct leads would do WONDERS.

Sadly, if GitHub adds scoped labels and descriptions we'll be making a move over as it's the final piece of the puzzle.

<comment><USER20> My favorite is when I open an issue and get no response.

Then, after a year, a bot auto-closes the issue due to "inactivity"...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I understand that many companies will be seduced by the offering and what could come next:

* No more source code on developers machine so better for security.

* No more development environment to setup and all the devs sharing the exact same settings: simplified onboarding of devs.

* No need for costly developers machines.

* No more infra to setup to host the source code repository, the CI/CD workflows (even if many companies already moved that to the cloud).

But as a developer I am worried what could also come next:

* dashboards for managers with all sort of stats on developers: code quality with arbitrary rules, productivity (number of lines of codes), number of stars from other developers, etc.

* being locked-in with the Microsoft toolchain all along from source code edition to deployment in Azure. For instance currently I chose to do my NodeJs backend development on vim with coc-vim and found it to be much lighter than Vscode (I have a very old developers machine)

<comment><USER22> They announced developer productivity analytics in the same keynote as they announced codespaces. It's not just coming, it's here!

Funny enough, after introducing the analytics stuff, they started the next section by showing that the more code you write the more security vulnerabilities you have.

Which is it, Github? Do I want to stay on top of your SLOC leaderboards so my manager doesn't fire me? Or does writing the most lines mean I introduced the most vulnerabilities so my manager should fire me? The answer depends on which product github is trying to sell you at that very moment.

<comment><USER23> Do I get points for deleting lines of code?

<comment><USER24> You should get double points!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is pretty epic. VS Code has proven itself to be one of the best (if not the best) and feature-complete editor out there. It's basically an IDE of a ton of languages at this point, and it's completely free. Integrating it with GH is a no-brainer move from Microsoft's standpoint, to increase market share even further with more seamless integration.

If they're able to do setup for Python, Go, Ruby, and JavaScript projects, I suspect that'll be > 50% of all professional work (both FOSS and private) done on GH.

<comment><USER26> While VS Code is definitely good in general, and first choice for languages like JavaScript, I find it really hard to compare it to JetBrains PyCharm and GoLand (understanding GoLand has no free version).

The debugging and refactoring experiences for Go and Python in VSCode feel slow, awkward to set up and configure and just generally tacked-on.

I have gotten the PyCharm professional and GoLand licensed through my employer but I will 100% be paying for them out of my own pocket if I ever lose that.

<comment><USER27> Even for C# VSCode is way less useful than VisualStudio, which also has a free version (though doesn't run on Linux)

<comment><USER28> Honestly, unless I'm working on a Windows machine, I find JetBrains Rider to be the best option for C# specifically. This is especially true if you like having your tests easily accessible from your IDE.

That said, VSCode is still very nice for front-end pretty much universally, and it's also great for things like back-end Javascript/Typescript. I think Codespaces is really going to excel when it comes to things like NodeJS -> AWS Lambda. Make code changes, run "sls test", done.

<comment><USER29> > This is especially true if you like having your tests easily accessible from > your IDE.

I haven't used Rider, but I'm curious how it could be easier than the Visual Studio test explorer? It seems pretty convenient, and doesn't lack any obvious features I can think of.

<comment><USER30> Minor point: the Rider test explorer tells you why your tests aren't appearing. Visual Studio's test explorer will just say "You have no tests, try rebuilding your solution" even if you already rebuilt it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Microsoft is really the best at the slow strategic burn.

* You host your project in github

* You fund your project using github sponsors

* You develop your project using github codespaces

* You compile, test and deploy using github actions

* You cloud host on azure

Each individual feature is definitely great. I'm not trying to be critical of Microsoft trying to turn their investment in github into a profitable business. This is a kind of vertical integration that is guaranteed to lead to some efficiencies.

One prediction based on this stack is the next piece could be some sort of subscription payment architecture. I wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of Microsoft Marketplace integration coming, but maybe branded under github. Some kind of SaaS subscription enabler.

<comment><USER32> Yup all the free stuff is ultimately to lead us into using and paying for Azure. Need an open source alternative to GitHub.

<comment><USER33> Sourcehut would like to have a word...

[https://sr.ht/](https://sr.ht/)

<comment><USER34> I had not seen that...interesting.

<comment><USER35> Source hut is cool. Among things, it prioritizes exposing and leveraging Git's existing functionality wherever possible, like email patches, rather than building new proprietary functionality on top of Git like Github and others do.

<comment><USER36> Everything about Github's PR workflow is killer to me, so to me personally the message I take away from this is that Source Hut isn't even competing with Github in the parts I care about.

<comment><USER35> If the one particular aspect I mentioned isn't for you then why even bother wasting your valuable time responding? Just go read their website instead and see if there _is_ something for you. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't, but at least then you'd know definitively. Much better use of your time and effort. I'll even save you a few clicks:

[https://drewdevault.com/2018/11/15/sr.ht-general- availabilit...](https://drewdevault.com/2018/11/15/sr.ht-general- availability.html)

[https://sourcehut.org/](https://sourcehut.org/)

<comment><USER36> I posted because I think my post would be useful to other people who are considering alternatives to GitHub but also like rich PR workflows like GitHub has, and because I think it's good to encourage would-be GitHub alternatives to invest in that area.

I've actually been following Sourcehut's mailing list and updates since forever because I find their philosophies interesting, but not right or practical for my own workflow.

<comment><USER15> Github flow is garbage.

Its broken by design and forces a subpar experience on top of something that actually fucking works.

Maybe you find it nice and dumbed down, good for you. The rest of us want git to actually be git.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This is going to be great for open source—Being able to get a fully-configured dev environment at a click of a button greatly lowers the barrier to entry. I've had a few small OS contributions where the time to set up the environment was more than the time I spent programming!

I could also see this being popular with engineering teams. No futzing with the new hire's computer, just have them open a web browser and they can dive right in!

<comment><USER38> I'm not sure if this is really true. Why would you want to become a contributor to an OSS project if you can't bother to get it working on your machine? You actually learn quite a bit about the project by going through its dependency hell.

<comment><USER39> Idk, I feel like we've been trained to believe this is necessary. Why you should need to know more about a dependency than its documented API? This sort of reminds me of Americans believing their current healthcare situation is the only way to do it even though it's awful.

<comment><USER38> Don't get me wrong - I don't think that you should go through it every time. Also, I'm not sure anyone reads the documented API of a dependency until some unexpected behaviour is happening. My basic point is that the dependency hell is not the biggest barrier for an open source contribution. In fact, mixing both problems is a bit strange to me - codespaces is not going to magically solve the dependency hell - it's just going to shift it to some other part of the configuration. The best way to start contributing to an OSS project is really be to have a mentor in project who could guide you through it during your first contribution. Personally, I'm willing to fight the machine for a couple of hours/days to get something to compile -- however, it's hard to justify reading code for weeks in the hope I can tackle an open issue.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> From Microsoft's point of view, it makes sense to merge Visual code with Github, as both are their properties. And it walks into the realm of repl.it and darklang, who are demonstrating people want to shorten the repl loop.

But I'm still wary of Microsoft, and remember them from the 90's. Completely dominant and ruthless. Even though it's new people now.

I can see them embracing open source development workflow, branching to eat up everything that has to do with your development workflow. Once Microsoft wins the ecosystem of open source developer workflow is when they'll start to leverage it, using it as lead gen for the lucrative cloud/dev ops services.

They're playing a long game to beat Amazon AWS, and to beat off any new startups with shorter repls.

<comment><USER41> in 5 years: "Please take a break from your coding and watch this short advertisement"

<comment><USER42> Please drink verification can

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I wonder if it's usable from an iPad. I haven't tried an online ide before, but if it works well it could be a great mobile development tool.

It would be awesome if this could be setup as a backend for vim as well. Given how well Coc.vim integrates with VSCode tooling, I'm cautiously optimistic.

<comment><USER3> That's correct it's usable from an iPad during the beta. There are a few known issues but we're planning on addressing those so that we can support this workflow (I work as the product lead on Codespaces).

<comment><USER44> Does it work with the software keyboard? I seem to recall Monaco not really supporting mobile.

<comment><USER3> I haven't specifically tried it, but I think it would be challenging given how much screen real estate the keyboard takes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'm getting tired of this game. Even the deaf ones like me start to hear the drums now.

You know, it's not that we do not have enough megacorps controlling every aspect of our lives. We need more of the "opposite" \- places that empower you _and_ leave you in peace and control.

</comment><comment><USER46> People hate on Electron apps, but it sure enables some cool stuff. I can't imagine another sustainable way to build a fully-fledged IDE that runs as a desktop application that people love, _and_ can be run on a remote server instance, rendered and interacted with in the browser. Amazing.

<comment><USER47> VSCode is a decent app, but I no longer consider it an electron app. It uses tons of c++ and you'd have to have the cash to buy the electron team (like ms did) to get anywhere close to what they have done.

<comment><USER48> Care to elaborate about the _tons of C++_ part? In their GitHub repo, I can hardly see any C++ files.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> I remember listening to Nathan Sobo, one of the founders/creators of Atom, talking to The Changelog in 2017 about creating Atom and his goal/dream to make it a collaborative editor, i.e. Google Docs for code [0]. He didn't have a timeline but he had done research into it:

> _That's definitely something I wanna do; that's not really in progress yet. > I did a bunch of research in that area, so that I can't really put a > timeline on. I can definitely say that more async style traditional GitHub > collaboration will be happening this year. I think there will be a natural > outgrowth from that into the real-time stuff._

Don't know if Sobo or his Atom colleagues do anything with the VS Code people, but hearing about Codespaces made me immediately think about his ideas for cloud editing.

(AFAIK the CodeSpaces presentation didn't mention collaborative editing in its current feature set)

[0] [https://changelog.com/podcast/241](https://changelog.com/podcast/241)

<comment><USER50> I had a short chat with some members of the VSCode python extension team to give feedback on their product. They wanted to know how much I'd value collaborative editing in VSCode. They're definitely thinking about it.

<comment><USER51> >They wanted to know how much I'd value collaborative editing in VSCode. They're definitely thinking about it.

Thinking about it? I thought this was a feature since 2018...

[https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/11/15/live- share](https://code.visualstudio.com/blogs/2017/11/15/live-share)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Having some thought about the GitPod folks[0] that provide nearly the same feature set.

I hope we are not witnessing a big sherlocking being done here, but… it really looks like one. :/

[0] [https://www.gitpod.io/](https://www.gitpod.io/)

<comment><USER53> They already have a blog post up about it - [https://www.gitpod.io/blog/github- codespaces/](https://www.gitpod.io/blog/github-codespaces/)

<comment><USER54> First time hearing of Theia - thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> I can only imagine how the people at GitHub paid to work on Atom are feeling right now.

Microsoft hasn't been kind to them!

<comment><USER56> Pretty sure they haven't been paid to work on Atom since the acquisition: [https://github.com/atom/atom/graphs/contributors](https://github.com/atom/atom/graphs/contributors)

They killed Atom the day they took over - they haven't had the balls to say anything publicly, but just go look at the commit graphs in the Atom repos. Here's a summary: [https://twitter.com/DuncanLock/status/1177747512905461760](https://twitter.com/DuncanLock/status/1177747512905461760)

<comment><USER54> Wow, I was okay with this until I saw the promise to keep Atom around.

That's...scummy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> At first glance this seems great for me. I was a big fan of Cloud9 before they were purchased by Amazon.

I was new to dev world and had never touched AWS so the transition to AWS C9 left me bewildered and I just gave up on it.

This seems like this would fill that role for me pretty well.

Bonus points - I currently use Visual Studio Code as my goto tool.

</comment><comment><USER58> Hypothetically, say I wanted to build, I don't know, a new spreadsheet that ran Python, runs on macOS and Linux. I hope it will give Excel a run for its money. Since Excel is so disappointing outside Windows.

Now I know Microsoft has a long history of safeguarding trade secrets, they were always very aggressive in this regard, from the beginning, the Xerox Parc days, and they still are. They state in their Investor Report that in Research & Development, they safeguard trade secrets, and are a world leader in patent pursuit [1].

Surely I don't need to worry that this platform for online development, tied to my source code, is not just another step towards making it easier for them to have a sneak peak into what I'm building? I know they can see my code in Github, but as a developer I know source code is one thing, but getting code to compile and run is a lot more work (on a very big project). This would make it even easier to dip into project runtimes, since IDE and environment settings are stored online now.

I mean, there's no way that strategically, they would aggressively try to bulwark their own business lines, by snooping on competing tech, and using insights to help strategically direct their patent lawyers, advising them on who to go after an how. And anyway, even if they did do that occasionally, there's no way they would bully me unjustly, I would surely deserve it. Right?

[1] [https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar13/financial- re...](https://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar13/financial- review/business-description/research-development/index.html)

<comment><USER59> Microsoft is pushing for a future with dumb terminals and online services. I think this is just a move that gets them closer to the point where a low power tablet/laptop combo (surface like form factor) can be all that a developer needs to work.

There's a lot of reasons why Microsoft will want that, among them that if they can sell a solution that works in cheap terminals, they can tie corporate customers into their bubble by selling them services that allows them to avoid buying hardware for their employees.

I'm not saying that being wary of Microsoft's ownership of your code isn't warranted, I'm just saying there are probably less shady/convoluted reasons why this kind of product benefits them - Occam's razor, etc.

<comment><USER60> I think you're looking for Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

<comment><USER58> I think we need another, Machiavelli's Razor: "Don't attribute a string of coincidences to accident when they are more neatly explained by self- interest".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> What I've always wanted was to be able to easily browse code on Github:

* a file tree (do-able via the octotree browser plugin)

* clickable functions (Github is doing this on some projects in some languages I've noticed)

* caller tree. Xcode is one of the only navigator doing this, you can see the whole hierarchy of callers and go through them easily.

What we're getting is something really cool, but it does not bring the caller tree function. It looks like this:

[https://holko.pl/public/images/xcode-search/call- hierarchy.p...](https://holko.pl/public/images/xcode-search/call- hierarchy.png)

<comment><USER62> vscode supports call hierarchy searches, but its not supported by all languages yet. Support was recently added for java [https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/java-on-visual-studio- co...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/java-on-visual-studio-code-update- january-2020/)

<comment><USER61> I've never seen this in any languages that I use (obviously Java is not in that list), is there a list somewhere?

<comment><USER62> I don't know of a central list. It depends on the particular language server you are using and if it supports the feature. The only other language I use it with besides java is typescript/javascript. [https://github.com/microsoft/vscode- docs/blob/vnext/release-...](https://github.com/microsoft/vscode- docs/blob/vnext/release-notes/v1_43.md#call-hierarchy-support-for-javascript- and-typescript)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> It's a neat idea and kudos to them for executing on this. However, it also triggers my spidey sense a bit. It makes me concerned about a far-flung future in which people who opt-out of the VSCode integration get a sub-optimal experience. Who knows if it will go this way but it may happen very slowly and without anyone noticing over a period of years. Corporate strategies often trend this way.

</comment><comment><USER64> Looks great!

At least now we don't need to run VS Code in another Chromium instance!

Now that Microsoft has Chromium Edge in Windows, it should be possible to provide a good way to spawn and communicate with Chromium GUIs/windows from native Win32 apps! That would be killer!

<comment><USER65> Boy do I have a surprise for you! [https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft- edge/hosting/webv...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft- edge/hosting/webview2)

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> Exactly as I predicted 2 years ago: [https://twitter.com/axelfontaine/status/1007887082151469056?...](https://twitter.com/axelfontaine/status/1007887082151469056?s=19)

</comment><comment><USER67> To me it is just something that grew by being distributed being merged into a monolithic entity. Merging and centralization seems reasonable at some point to solve big problems and iron out insignificant differences, and computing has always been swaying between distributed and centralized, but this is one scary centralization phase for me because it looks unprecedentedly global and because it concerns developers themselves. I don't like fiddling with development environments (I kind of liked it first, actually) and toolchains (especially the web ones) just as much as anyone else, but I am afraid this might be too much lock-in.

</comment><comment><USER68> This also seems quite similar to repl.it, which I've been enjoying a lot recently.

I wonder if they'll support plugins and importing other VS Code settings to the online editor.

<comment><USER69> I doubt you'd get the same quick & simple experience you have with Repl.it. This is more replacing your local VSCode, which is not what Repl.it aims to replace.

<comment><USER70> this is not even just replacing your local vs code.

This is a minor variation of the existing Visual Studio Online (now renamed Visual Studio Codespace) product.

The core of it is running an automatically created azure hosted docker container. It automatically checks out your repository. It actually runs the whole VS Code backend on the remote machine, with the the user interface being provided by the "local" VS Code instance (web or desktop).

I'm going to bet this will end up with identical pricing to the existing product, at least if you don't pay for any github products. If you do, there might be some discount or included running time with those products.

The only part that sounds new here is the editor integration into the GitHub site.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> I wonder how they will (did?) work around the keyboard shortcuts that Chrome reserves (and doesn't propagate to the page). For example, Cmd+T in VSCode opens up the quick search panel, while in Chrome it opens a new tab.

</comment><comment><USER72> One of the hardest part getting anyone into Programming is actually setting up their Dev environment. ( You have many different platform, OS version or other compatibles issues... etc. And most student dont have clue about any of these ) You then have to teach them basic Git ( Github ) usage.

Cloud9 could be great but hasn't gotten any traction apart from using it for some tutorials.

This Codespaces brings the best of both world and kill two birds with one stone.

The next step is Azure, hopefully they could have an Amazon Lightsail equivalent that is simple to understand and deploy without scaring beginners away.

<comment><USER67> I think that setting up your development environment is often an ironically pleasant and linear (i.e. easy) task that is a matter of following some tutorials and that might make a beginner feel like they are accomplishing something. There were always plenty of tutorials for doing that as well, and I can imagine it is not least because developers like sharing their experience by writing them. Of course after some time it becomes a hassle and one just wants to have their setup the habitual way, but in the beginning for me at least it felt like accomplishing something.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I hope they allow to run the VMs on local hardware. I would love to use my desktop resources (more than they are offering, which is still generous) for this feature.

I think Chromebooks are going to be a great use for this. Lightweight client but full editor and environment, with no hassle.

<comment><USER73> I'm not sure if you can bring your own machine[1] with GitHub Codespaces, but you can with Visual Studio Codespaces, which has the same underlying tech/featureset. (Visual Studio Codespaces was known as Visual Studio Online until last week) it basically does exactly what you want, let's you use your dedicated local resources on another machine or remotely via the browser or using VS Code proper.

I work at Microsoft on Azure but not with VS Codespaces or with GitHub Codespaces — I'm just a big fan/user/beta tester.

[1]: [https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/bring-your- own-m...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/bring-your-own-machine- to-visual-studio-online/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, very interesting! I use IntelliJ mostly, and this is something I wish was available on that platform

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> So.. let's say I host my source code with MS (GitHub), I develop using their web ide (visual studio code space) and then I deploy to their cloud (azure).

Give it a decade and you'll have Microsoft specific developers and organizations who are locked in beyond rescue.

It's always a fragmentation vs defragmentation battle.

<comment><USER75> It's going to be ALL developers getting locked in. You're seeing a 5-10 year plan in action here.

1\. Create a popular, locally run dev editor.

2\. Shift it to the cloud.

3\. Build all new features into the cloud version only.

4\. Ignore the locally run version until it's obsolete.

5\. Developers rent the cloud version forever.

The GitHub integration is going to be amazing for Microsoft because the allure of clicking a button and getting an instant development environment will be huge. Watch for a big campaign where popular frameworks start providing "Launch in Codespaces" or similar buttons.

We'll get to a point where new developers won't even know how to set up a local development environment. I'd bet a lot that Microsoft is envisioning a world where developers pay $1000+ per year for a combination of GitHub, Codespaces, Actions, Pipelines, etc..

The idea of paying cloud compute rates for things like build agents is crazy to me, but here we are.

<comment><USER38> For me, the real appeal is to be able to share dev environments easily and make software development truly remote friendly.

In the end, it will come down to latency, usability and pricing. I do agree with you though - I'm not paying $2K+ for a macbook pro and then pay to run VSCode in the cloud -- something doesn't add up.

<comment><USER70> I'm not clear on how this will make things easier. The default "environments" are just docker container defined in this repo: [https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-dev- containers/](https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode-dev-containers/) except that you can leave them suspended when not using them. (For the non-GitHub version this is literally a VM provisioned by way of running a single pre-specified docker container. Suspending is presumably just suspending the whole VM. In the beta the GitHub branded version will not persist processes, so it would be more like stopping the VM when not in use rather than just suspending it.)

As for the pricing, it will likely be in the same ballpark as the non-github branded version of this exact same service (modulo any included time with a paid github subscription): [https://azure.microsoft.com/en- us/pricing/details/visual-stu...](https://azure.microsoft.com/en- us/pricing/details/visual-studio-online/)

The estimated costs for full time development for one user with only one environment is ~$23.30/month.

Each environment you leave in a suspended state for a whole month would cost $6.40. OF course, if you are willing to have your filesystem wiped and rebuild each time you start and stop coding, you can destroy the environments when not in use, in which case you will probably want to create a custom dockerfile to customize the environment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER76> I like how they say that if you don't want to develop in a browser, you can connect VS Code. You're still developing in a browser.

Still a great IDE though.

<comment><USER77> > You're still developing in a browser.

How so? Node/Electron != browser, though I see how the whole HTML/JS/CSS thing can be confusing.

<comment><USER78> It's a browser without an address bar.

<comment> seph-reed or any http connections...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> What languages does this support? It would be super cool if this supports `xcodebuild` :O

<comment><USER3> We support all languages that can run within a Linux container, see [https://github.com/mcolyer/codespace- containers/blob/master/...](https://github.com/mcolyer/codespace- containers/blob/master/base/Dockerfile) for a base example image (I work as the product lead on this).

<comment><USER80> Well then I'm glad you're here...Is it possible to integrate with an existing Dockerfile? My team's main build is handled by an image that is a result of years of fine-tuning and files with external dependency definitions (like requirements.txt for pip). Getting all of that installed in github's container is only slightly easier than getting it all installed in a desktop IDE, which is currently prohibitively difficult for us. We don't want to end up with a second platform we have to maintain.

More generally, is there going to be a clean way to to use this if we already have a containerized stack, especially editing code in a user's existing container? (With the code still under version control, of course)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" If this succeeds in reducing the friction for someone to submit a patch/bug fix, the number of 'eyeballs' for open-source projects would increase substantially.

</comment><comment><USER82> This is maybe the most relevant threat to the macbook pro product line I've seen in a while. Seems like I could do everything I need on an iPad with this, without Apple having to give me access to a shell in iOS.

</comment><comment><USER83> I was just looking in to setting up "VS Code in the browser" with gitpod, code-server, and Visual Studio Codespaces last weekend. Gitpod looked nice but the fact that you can only customize the editor per-repository doesn't make sense to me. Looks like GitHub has solved this by using a `dotfiles` repo. code-server looked decent but I would much rather auth / secure the editor through GitHub. I tried to use Visual Studio Codespaces but I find Microsoft's account system and Azure's interface so infuriating. I'm really looking forward to this!

<comment><USER84> > Gitpod looked nice but the fact that you can only customize the editor per- > repository doesn't make sense to me.

Gitpod also has user-specific Preferences, and even user-specific VS Code extensions. (Usually customization places have a "Workspace" tab and a "User" tab.)

<comment><USER83> I just added my user settings and my custom theme via .vsix and everything seems to have worked fine. Not sure how I missed this, thanks Jan!

<comment><USER84> Hey, that's awesome! Thanks for the update.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> I still wish that PyCharm has some better remote development support... Basically this feature request: [https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-226455](https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-226455)

The VS Code remote development is already much better now, and only seems to get improved and extended more and more.

And then, going further, some online web version of PyCharm...

<comment><USER86> You can run any Linux/X11 app remote.

        ssh -X

Then start the GUI app on the remote machine and you will see it locally,

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> I am surprised this is not using atom. After all I that that was developed by the GitHub team. But I guess since Microsoft owns them VScode comes first.

<comment><USER88> VScode is lightyears ahead of Atom in nearly every way. It would make no sense to choose Atom over VScode for something like this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> This is a really good idea, however I think it's somewhat marred by the pricing structure: [https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/pricing/details/visual- stu...](https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/pricing/details/visual-studio- online/)

There should be a free tier as well as monthly options.

</comment><comment><USER90> I can see why this is interesting from a project manager's perspective. But why would I as a developer want this, let alone pay for it? Isn't this the "developing in a browser" nightmare everybody was joking about a few years ago?

Maybe this will work for developing web applications which are executed on a remote machine by design, but everything else?

</comment><comment><USER91> I see this as a major competition to Repl.it they have had GitHub integration for some time, but it's clunky in my opinion...

</comment><comment><USER92> Products like this have existed in various forms for a few years now, but this is poised to set a new bar. I wonder at what point a significant number of companies will start issuing their developers lightweight laptops and just having them use a web-based environment for everything. It seems almost inevitable (at least, when developing applications that are sufficiently abstracted from the underlying system).

Edit: it also occurs to me that this could be Microsoft's big end-game from all of their recent dev-focused work and acquisitions (VSCode, NPM, GitHub, TypeScript, WSL, etc.). If they create a world where a significant fraction of developers who currently buy their dev environments from Apple start renting them from MS instead, that's a huge deal. And of course there's lots of potential for synergy with Azure on top of that.

</comment><comment><USER93> Small bug in the signup page, if you select and then deselect "Other", it still stores the selected state and doesn't let you send the form [0]

[0] [https://i.imgur.com/tNAzrFw.png](https://i.imgur.com/tNAzrFw.png)

</comment><comment><USER94> Is anyone else imagining a dystopian future where employers force you to use online code editors?

</comment><comment> ryan-allen I am so excited about this. I've been using code-server [0] for a while now, because Visual Studio Online was not fast enough in Australia for me to use.

I have a VPS that runs code-server and I use 'save as app' in Edge so that it captures control keys properly. It feels like it's native and using ssh tunnels it feels 99% native, and I can pick back up working on any computer.

I ended up with this set up because I have a Galaxy Book S and VS Code doesn't have an ARM build. Very excited!

[0] [https://github.com/cdr/code-server](https://github.com/cdr/code-server)

</comment><comment><USER95> Very nice and much needed.

What worries me is the consolidation of great resources in the hands of one party. We know from our collective experience since forever that concentration of any resource does not give us resilience.

Your thoughts?

</comment><comment><USER96> Oh, WOW! I was looking for something just like this recently.

I tried setting up Theia ([https://theia-ide.org](https://theia-ide.org)) on windows and it was definitely not ready for major use.

I didn't find anything else that fit the bill either, I hear something like this exists internally at google though.

I'm not typically a huge fan of Github (I'm sure that's a controversial opinion) but this is definitely something I'm going to check out.

<comment><USER84> You've probably seen [https://gitpod.io](https://gitpod.io) then, which is kind of a hosted Theia that seems to work well in any browser/OS/device?

<comment><USER96> I was looking (at the time) for something that would allow me to develop windows applications from a Linux machine.

Sadly I'm still falling short. :<

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> So how would the actual running of the code work?

I haven't used GitHub in some time (using gitlab), so just wondering what are they using to run this stuff... because you'll probably need a fullyfleged container service with secret management and whatnot. Does GitHub already provide this?

Also I'm guessing the editor won't be using the same file system as the launched code, i.e. would hot reload be possible or do you have to commit and redeploy

Anyone have any ideas/speculations?

</comment><comment><USER98> There is an amazing free alternative: [https://goitpod.io](https://goitpod.io)

You simply prefix your GitHub (or gitlab) url with "gitpod.io/{your-repo} and you are instantly redirected to VM with with your repo cloned and ready to use, a fully customizable dev environment, vscode, extensions, machine is public on the internet so you can "npm start" and actually start serving your site.

<comment><USER99> Fixed link: [https://gitpod.io/](https://gitpod.io/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER100> This will probably affect sales of beefier Macs too. Why do you need a beefy machine when all compilation / intelligence is streamed from the cloud?

<comment><USER101> That doesn't solve the problem of having to deal with Windows 10 or a laptop running Linux.

</comment></comment><comment><USER102> I develop front ends for Laravel apps. The database is also on my desktop. With this would I need to host the database on its own server or can the Codespace also handle running a DB? Mainly asking because I only use laptops for co-working and meetups. Would love to ditch buying them and just use the iPad Pro that I have. Not sure how to handle the database if I'm on an iPad.

</comment><comment><USER103> This is great news! I've been doing a similar setup to this for years with Jupyter Notebooks.

However, if I get to make a teeny tiny feature request (Nat, if you're out there...) it would be about this:

> _What if I don't want to develop in a browser?_

> If you prefer, you can open a codespace in GitHub and then connect to it in > VS Code.

I really kinda wish I could do the oposite, kinda like how Google Drive's Colaboratory (essentially Jupyter Notebooks on Drive[0]) do: I would launch a CodeSpace on GitHub, and it would handle all of the UI and automation bits, but I would keep the "environment" hosted somewhere else (i.e. a Docker container exposing a CodeSpace agent/headless VSCode through localhost:8080 that my browser talks to)

All of the gears seem to be already in-place for this to be possible given:

> _How is Codespaces different from VS Code?_

> Codespaces sets up a cloud-hosted, containerized, and customizable VS Code > environment. After set up, you can connect to a codespace through the > browser or through VS Code.

The reasons for this are several:

\- I bought a beefy computer for a reason, and want to use it. I don't want to pay boatloads of money to Azure to have equal firepower to what I currently have idling;

\- From an SRE perspective, your code, several times needs to be "inside" your infrastructure to run properly (because of roles, latency, you might be running Data Loss Prevention solutions, what have you), and this allows me to point the CodeSpace to a dedicated instance I have running inside a VPN on my own infrastructure;

\- There are more, but I don't want to make this too long and I'm failing to recall some of them.

 _So to sum it up:_ I think this is a potentially great feature, as long as it doesn't come coupled with the need to buy Azure instance time. This would (and I'm asserting this purely from my own gut, without a shred of evidence) probably lead to increased adoption for this feature, and as a corollary lead to selling more Azure instance time for those who do not want the hassle, without crippling those who actually need to keep some things "in-house".

[0] [https://colab.research.google.com](https://colab.research.google.com)

</comment><comment><USER104> I'm slightly surprised all the screenshots are based on MacOS and that Microsoft didn't require them to look like Windows 10.

</comment><comment><USER105> Is the browser editing powered by Monaco or something else entirely? [https://github.com/microsoft/monaco- editor](https://github.com/microsoft/monaco-editor)

Both repl.it and codesandbox.io seem to be Monaco based. This seems to have better support for VS Code extensions than what's available in Monaco.

<comment><USER106> It's not Monaco, which is a basic text editor, it's full VS Code (extensions, terminal, debugging) but in the browser

</comment></comment><comment><USER107> I couldn't find any info on how much memory/vCPU these will have available or if it's configurable, does anyone know?

<comment><USER106> I think it's 2 cores, 4 GB RAM by default but they are planning of adding other options I expect it'll be in line with the VS Codespaces offerings [https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/pricing/details/visual- stu...](https://azure.microsoft.com/en-gb/pricing/details/visual-studio- online/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> Oh, now things are getting interesting.

I was a big fan of the idea of GitLab IDE, but never got too deep; it seemed like a great idea that could use more baking. But then I saw Theia and GitPod. I like GitPod, but I just wish it had better Github integration.

Well, yeah. So... good job Github. Can't wait to try this one out.

</comment><comment> Avi-D-coder This is great. We all knew it was coming, but I wish they hadn't axed xray.

Has vscode performance improved in recent history? Are there any plans to replace hot code paths with Rust or wasm? Has modal editing improved? I'm not against using vscode, but even with codespaces it's a hard sell.

<comment><USER109> (vscode does use ripgrep to power part of their search)

</comment></comment><comment><USER110> Isnt this what google cloud shell + editor [1] already does ?

[1][https://medium.com/google-cloud/developing-on-gcp-getting- st...](https://medium.com/google-cloud/developing-on-gcp-getting-started-with- cloud-shell-editor-e074f2fa49d9)

</comment><comment><USER111> Amazing, this finally turns the iPad into a legit remote dev machine. No need to setup a DO VPC either.

</comment><comment><USER112> Will this support Teletype style multi-cursor collaboration? I'm very excited about this for easy dev environment setup but if it had easy collaboration it would be immediately adoptable at my org for pair programming while we're all pandemic-remote.

</comment><comment><USER113> Argh--does anyone understand what this is supposed to be? (beyond what GitHub already provides)

</comment><comment><USER114> I've already been using VSCode remote over SSH on cheap yet powerful Hetzner instances. You can do this on any cloud vendor and you can, if you want, put your home directory as a volume and resize up and down your machine as you want.

</comment><comment><USER115> Does this work on iPad?

I was under the impression this bug is blocking VSCode and other electron based apps.

[https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149054](https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149054)

<comment><USER84> Monaco has a few rough edges on iPad, but overall it seems to work great with [https://gitpod.io](https://gitpod.io) (same editor as VSCode).

</comment></comment><comment><USER116> It's interesting that Microsoft acknowledges the fact that their native windows platform is really not good for a lot of developer. Linux is better. The web is even better. Good direction they're heading to.

<comment><USER117> WSL 2 is really good: [https://docs.microsoft.com/en- us/windows/wsl/wsl2-install](https://docs.microsoft.com/en- us/windows/wsl/wsl2-install)

</comment></comment><comment><USER118> Once they have all the coding sessions recorded they can finally replace those pesky devs /jk. But seriously, is there anything in the conditions about ability to record coding sessions of say open source devs?

</comment><comment><USER119> Sounds good, microsoft is building some interesting tools lately. I use visual code on the desktop for various languages, so it is a welcome to see it will be supported online through github repositories.

</comment><comment><USER120> So now that the IDE is on the web, it would be pretty neat to be able to automatically launch interactive debugging sessions when breakpoints are hit in CI jobs.

Does any CI solution already offer something like this?

</comment><comment><USER121> This feels like a step toward a contemporary "VB6" in the cloud.

</comment><comment><USER122> I hope this accelerates interest around web-based development environments. If someone could pre-package a setup containing language servers for "all" languages, a build system that is generic to all languages (bazel or bazel- like), and internally run a small kube cluster with a wildcard DNS name pointing to it you'd reduce ops work of setting up staging environments, feature branch testing, development environment management, etc for most development teams by at least 10%.

I can't wait for a monorepo-friendly staging/development environment that works out of the box and can provide cross-language & generated code autocompletions for "every" language.

<comment><USER87> I think you severely underestimate how hard it is to do this for "all" and "every" language. Even VSC only has first class support for a handful of top languages. Most languages I use have barely more then a syntax highlighting package.

</comment></comment><comment><USER123> Can someone explain how 'build' is done with the obvious targetting of platforms and build configs etc? Does the build happen locally? On a rented server? Serverless?

</comment><comment><USER124> Wow this seems pretty sick.

Gitlab has a decent web ide, I think this may be github playing catch up, but I'm hopeful that this competition gets us a better product on both sides.

</comment><comment><USER125> This is great - it basically is signalling how Microsoft is thinking about GitHub. I think vscode is on its way to be owned by the GitHub team.

Will the same happen to Azure Devops ?

<comment><USER126> > _I think vscode is on its way to be owned by the GitHub team._

God please no, especially if anyone from Atom is involved.

I almost didn't even try vscode in the first place after atom soured me on electron.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> I was expecting this years ago when GitHub started work on Atom. This will be quite useful for people who are willing to participate in the Microsoft ecosystem.

</comment><comment><USER128> OT: For those who like to have VS Code's features in an super responsive console environment: Check out coc.vim for nvim. It's a masterpiece.

</comment><comment><USER76> Being able to connect, do the work, run tests and everything without needing a strong laptop sounds like a good solution for people who like to travel.

</comment><comment><USER129> > Get the _full_ Visual Studio Code experience without leaving GitHub.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that statement isn't quite accurate.

<comment><USER130> It's plausible, given that VS Code is effectively a web app. (the exception in features could be Extensions)

Not the first IDE to have full-feature parity on desktop and web.

<comment><USER129> Not having extensions alone already means it's not the _full_ experience. How many people run vanilla VS Code?

Can I run unit tests? Debug?

<comment><USER131> It does have extensions[1]. It just might not be able to run _all_ extensions.

[1] From the link: "Inside of a codespace, you'll have access to the Visual Studio Code Marketplace, and you can preload any extensions you want loaded at launch using a devcontainer configuration file. You can also personalize your codespace by pulling in dotfiles."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> So is this another play to lock us into Azure Cloud?

</comment><comment><USER132> 'How much does Codespaces cost? Codespaces is free while in beta. Plans and pricing will be announced as the beta progresses.'

<comment><USER133> I think if you look at the pricing for github actions minutes, you'd gather an extremely rough idea of what they feel is a fair price for docker hosting. Maybe add some buffer to make the VS Code investment worth it, etc.

<comment><USER132> Absolutely, just might not be for everyone. Installing running those modules is gonna cost them. node_modules for create-react-app, react official boiler plate is around 280mb

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER134> I have no idea about VS Code. For which languages is this good for? Javascript I guess. What else? C, C++, Java, python or such?

</comment><comment><USER135> This looks excellent. Can easily see this vertically integrating across Azure to become a strong competitor to AWS + Lambda.

</comment><comment><USER136> Is this built on top of open source technology? Say, can I integrate it into a gitlab instance, or host it on my own server?

<comment><USER84> I don't think VS/GH Codespaces are open-source, and they don't seem to support GitLab.

However, if you do need something based on open-source that works with GitLab, take a look at [https://www.gitpod.io](https://www.gitpod.io)

You can even self-host it: [https://www.gitpod.io/blog/gitpod-self- hosted-0.4.0/](https://www.gitpod.io/blog/gitpod-self-hosted-0.4.0/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER137> This is great, I can't help but feel like the whole point of rewriting a part of VS in JS was to get to this stage.

</comment><comment><USER138> Is this a new main competitor to AWS Cloud9?

</comment><comment><USER139> So seems like GitHub is in the shape of VS Code now. Good job Microsoft. Atom is not your child anymore.

</comment><comment><USER140> This looks nice to show off code and do 1-2 line fixes.

Don't think I would write a full app or module in this though.

</comment><comment><USER141> I wonder if it will be possible to install extensions, I want my Vim keybindings!

</comment><comment><USER142> Isn't that antithetical to the entire idea of git _and_ of Microsoft?

</comment><comment><USER143> This is going to be amazingly useful.

It's also some pretty serious vertical integration for Github/Microsoft!

IDE: Github Source control + collaboration: Github CI/CD: Github Hosting: Github + Azure (with docker and azure functions that experience is pretty much already there technically?)

</comment><comment><USER144> Is there a list of supported languages or environments for this yet?

</comment><comment><USER145> So how would this differ from CodeSandbox or StackBlitz?

</comment><comment><USER146> I wonder what they use on the backend. Is it .NET Core?

</comment><comment><USER147> Can you compile, run and test your code online as well?

</comment><comment><USER148> The more Microsoft move from Azure to GitHub the better

<comment><USER149> Where do you think these VMs are hosted? :)

I hope they allow BYO-remote backend for compliance reasons. This feature seems amazing but I cannot use it.

<comment><USER73> We do!

[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/online/how- to/...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/online/how-to/self- hosting-vscode)

(I work on Azure but not on this product)

<comment><USER149> I'm aware of the product, I'd like to know if there plans to integrate these two offerings (e.g.: click on GitHub CodeSpace and connect to my _personal_ remote server as opposed to one on Azure) and if there will be any better approaches for IT/Ops security focused folks to configure these en masse. The current approach is untenable, each user has to log in and set up a VS Remote environment individually, personally, and if I'm rolling this out to a team that's just not an option.

<comment><USER73> Thanks for the feedback, I'll send it to that team!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER150> GitHub vs Gitlab best thing for this decade.

</comment><comment> filter-coffee Interesting to see VScode in github. Slowly integrating Microsoft's feature. I think we can soon expect something like Create a MS PowerPoint from code comments

</comment><comment><USER151> nice! thought about an environment like that. would be great to have python, golang and c/cpp runtimes.

</comment><comment><USER152> Final nail in the coffin of Atom, adieu.

</comment><comment><USER153> As long as I can get vim keybindings...

</comment><comment><USER154> Dear Diary, today I saw the future

</comment><comment><USER155> MSFT loves devs :)

</comment><comment><USER156> #20880

</comment><comment><USER157> Wasn't one of the primary reasons for the creation of git to be "decentralized, offline"?

This is counterintuative to that.

Call me paranoid, but you'd have to be a madman to

        * Store all of your source code with Microsoft (GitHub / npm)
        * Now start authoring all of your said source code online with yet another Microsoft product

That's a stupidly huge amount of trust to put into Microsoft.

<comment><USER158> Don't conflate Git with GitHub. Git is decentralized and always will be, and you're free to use Git however and wherever you'd like. GitHub is a collaborative code repository with social features, and the ability to edit code in place is an interesting evolution. The fact that GitHub happens to use Git is incidental. The entire product would be a useful and viable venture even if it were backed by CVS or Mercurial or Perforce. Git just happened to be the best choice when they started.

</comment></comment><comment><USER159> So much Github marketing spam today, maybe the admins should look into whether they are sending out coordinated upvote instructions to employees?

</comment><comment><USER160> Github is getting Microsofted, there were some good things about this in the recent past, but I wonder...

<comment><USER161> Two years, tops, then it'll be unusable.

<comment><USER38> I tend to agree, it's quite crazy what they are trying to pull off technically. It's hard to imagine how all these features will not impact the service. Also it's probably just bleeding money... millions of dollars on CodeScan alone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER162> Typical Microsoft strategy: Embrace, extend and extinguish

Soon the Platform will be renamed 'Microsost Visual Studio Github' or 'Microsoft team Github'. Then 'microsoft Visual studio hub'.

Then at somme point, Github will be inside Visual studio code online and not anymore the other way around!

<comment><USER163> What?

This is just them creating a one stop shop for developers by expanding what GitHub offers.

Nothing to do with EEE

<comment><USER162> Just think! You have Github. Git coming from linux, open source World, ... Also Github is notoriously the base of a lot of the ecosystem that is deprecating Microsoft solutions and environnement. All the website and js things of today are all developped by and for the unix world(linux, mac,..). In ms World, you were supposed to use proprietary closed heavy corporate solutions : c sharp, j2e, closed 'pro' server solutions.

Si Github was the corner of all of that. Then they but it, suddenly there are a lot of features coming that bring it far from the scm job it was meant to. Now, it starts to be 'integrated' with ms tool ecosystem. How long before your Github accounts are merged, shared, replace with a Microsoft account?

They will tell you that it makes sense and is needed because vscode needs to be interconnected with ms team and co...

<comment><USER163> You seem to have closed your eyes for the MS of the past 10 years.

The 90s are over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER164> Great, but Github doesn't even support sorting your repositories into folders and is ignoring years-old requests to change that: [https://github.com/dear- github/dear-github/issues/74](https://github.com/dear-github/dear- github/issues/74)

Gitlab does.

<comment><USER165> Neat, use gitlab then. Get over your tribalism and use the right tool for the job.

</comment></comment><comment><USER166> So GitHub (Microsoft) continues to venture way beyond just source control and it's directly related areas, into a much more overall "development" strategy, seemingly echoing what GitLab have been doing for a while.

It's sad to see GitHub moving slowly into spreading itself too thin, instead of just improving the platform they have. They now try to replace CI services, donation platforms and now remote code editors.

Seems their core service is still holding up so far, but with all these moves in different directions, I'm getting a bit worried that the SCM and software collaboration part will be left out. I think GitHub becoming SourceForgeV2 is closer than people think. It's bound to happen at one point.

<comment><USER77> > It's sad to see GitHub moving slowly into spreading itself too thin

People have been saying this every time GitHub has added a feature that wasn't SCM. How is this time any different?

> I think GitHub becoming SourceForgeV2 is closer than people think. It's > bound to happen at one point.

How do you possibly jump from Codespaces to SourceForgeV2, and somehow proclaim it as certainty?

<comment><USER167> Since when is saying "I think" considered to "proclaim as certainty"?

<comment><USER77> It's literally in the quote: "It's bound to happen at one point."</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Under-fire Huawei offers access to hardware and source code - <AUTHOR> http://www.itproportal.com/2012/10/24/under-fire-huawei-offers-access-to-hardware-and-source-code/

<comment><USER2> Already on HN

-> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4692862></comment>


FreeBSD Foundation exceeds target for 2012 - <AUTHOR> http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/donate/sponsors.shtml

<comment><USER2> There's something very interesting going on here: A week ago the total jumped by $100k from an anonymous donation. Now the total just jumped by another $150k, and the donors list is showing "Anonymous Donor" in a new $250k+ category. Did Mr. Anonymous send in a $100k check and then change his mind and add another $150k a week later?

<comment><USER3> US public charities (which means donations from the public are tax-deductable) are limited in the percentage of their income they can receive from private foundations and families. The amount of the large donation may have been contingent upon receiving enough funds from a broader base of sources. Too large of a donation could have caused the FreeBSD Foundation to fail their public support test for the year and be reclassified as a private foundation.

IANAL, but I am the chairman of a 501(c)(3)

<comment><USER2> I don't think that's a problem here. I've been looking at the donors list and the sizes of donations for the past few months with an eye to where the public support test ends up, and by my arithmetic they could have given the $250k earlier in the year without ever putting the Foundation at risk of failing the public support test.

For what it's worth: Over the 2008-2012 window, the 2%-of-total-support cap on the amount of each donor's contribution which counts as "public" is currently at almost $40k; and there are five donors (Anonymous, NetApp, Hudson River Trading, iXsystems, and Google) which are currently above that limit. As a result, each new dollar donated by someone not on that list else counts as $1.10 towards the "public support" amount, since it increases by 5 x $0.02 the amount of "public support" from those five largest donors, in addition to the $1 itself counting as public support.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> FreeBSD seems to emphasise doing things right over doing them in a hurry and therefore may at times be a bit behind the curve in terms of support for the latest hardware and features. But when those features do come, they tend to be of superior quality (GEOM, Netgraph & bhyve for example) and rock solid. For serious server and and networking use (often in the guise of pfSense), that makes it my OS of choice. Glad to see some hardware vendors think the same way.

</comment><comment><USER5> Very Cool.

I feel that the OS has somewhat fallen behind the times, and fallen out of the limelight, so I'm glad to see some support for it still out there.

It's not the most popular OS in the world but it sure is a nice one. Everything I've ever used it for worked great once I got it dialed in.

<comment><USER6> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/12.0

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Screw the naysayers who said FreeBSD wouldn't make it.

<comment><USER8> Don't think there are any.

<comment><USER9> I don't know if they count as serious naysayers or not, but: [http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?76208-FreeBSD- is-D...](http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?76208-FreeBSD-is-Dying)

<comment><USER8> Why does anybody care what some forum troll on Phoronix says? I was replying to a statement that made it sound like Linux users had declared jihad on FreeBSD.

<comment><USER10> Why does anyone care what Eric S. Raymond says?

'cause he thinks FreeBSD is a turd, too.

[http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=538&cpage=1#comment-229100](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=538&cpage=1#comment-229100)

<comment> X-Istence Meh, this is the same guy that wrote a nasty gram to some Microsoft recruiter when an simple email saying "no thanks" would have sufficed:

esr.ibiblio.org/?p=208

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Now that FreeBSD had exceeded their target, you might want to consider donating to Haiku (<https://www.haiku-os.org/>).

Unlike FreeBSD which is targeting servers (much like Linux), Haiku is designed for personal computing and emphasizes responsiveness and ease of use.

<comment><USER2> _Unlike FreeBSD which is targeting servers_

FreeBSD isn't just targeting servers. There's also a lot of work happening on embedded systems, and one of the larger projects the FreeBSD Foundation funded recently was strictly desktop-oriented -- providing support for Intel graphics chipsets.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Seems like FreeBSD is _not dying_ after all.</comment>


Angola for life [video] - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/404305/angola-prison-documentary/?single_page=true <comment><AUTHOR> Some commentary by the author:

[http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/a-look-i...](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/a-look- inside-angola-prison/404377/)</comment>


Ask HN: will googles app-store be a viable option to getting a Merchant Account - <AUTHOR>

I saw this story http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/17/chrome-web-store-2/ posted a few days ago and was thinking could startups use this instead of getting a merchant account or using PayPal, recurly, etc...<p>Do you see a down side or a reason we couldn't? <comment><USER2> I recommend getting yourself setup with multiple methods of payment, including Google Checkout, PayPal, as well as your own merchant account. Having a single point of payment failure (e.g. your only payment account gets frozen or shut down) is a recipe for disaster. If any type of risk management ratios trip alarms (e.g. inquiry, chargeback and refund rates) they shut you down first, and ask questions later (or don't ask any questions at all).

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Clickable [http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/17/chrome-web- store-2/?utm_sou...](http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/17/chrome-web- store-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Techcrunch+\(TechCrunch\))

</comment><comment><USER3> Original post: [http://blog.chromium.org/2010/08/get-your-apps-ready-for- chr...](http://blog.chromium.org/2010/08/get-your-apps-ready-for-chrome- web.html)</comment>


Acupuncture practice acts: legalized quackery - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-practice-acts-legalized-quackery/

<comment><USER2> But acupuncture has been shown to be more effective than placebo in some proper, randomized, double-blind studies. Unlike, say, homeopathy, there may well be something truly therapeutic about acupuncture.

[http://arstechnica.com/science/2010/06/acupuncture-works- by-...](http://arstechnica.com/science/2010/06/acupuncture-works-by-inducing- bodys-own-painkiller/)</comment>