Ask HN: What is the simplest and most flexible way to build a CRUD app in 2019? - <AUTHOR> I like the Rails model of ActiveRecord and Spring Data too.  Any other models, tools, frameworks that make building CRUD apps easy and also provide flexibility? <comment><USER2> The Symfony Maker Bundle[0] let's you run one command to generate CRUD views/forms/controllers on a defined entity[1].

So, with 2 commands you can have a CRUD website with all the values you need.

Really easy, really flexible.

[0] - [https://symfony.com/doc/current/controller.html#generating-c...](https://symfony.com/doc/current/controller.html#generating- controllers) [1] - [https://symfony.com/doc/current/doctrine.html#creating-an- en...](https://symfony.com/doc/current/doctrine.html#creating-an-entity-class)

</comment><comment><USER3> I recommend [1] _react-admin_ , it's an admin panel framework built for CRUD style apps.

Tables, Lists and Forms are all built-in and nicely abstracted, along with an Auth system. It's built using react and redux which makes it easily extensible. And there's plenty of database connectors for it too.

[1] [https://github.com/marmelab/react- admin](https://github.com/marmelab/react-admin)

</comment><comment><USER4> My choice:

Framework7 hybrid front end + Parse Server back end, hosted on Heroku and mLab.

Or if you want lighter and simpler, with less scalability, jQuery + Bootstrap + Parse Server. Maybe Vue.

Setting up Parse Server is poorly documented, so I wrote a little walkthrough: [https://medium.com/@smuzani/setting-up-a-mobile-backend- serv...](https://medium.com/@smuzani/setting-up-a-mobile-backend-server-in- half-an-hour-f1b13e88092c)

I'm not sure about the others, but I'd say it would take about 2 hours to build a quick listing app with little experience.

</comment><comment><USER5> If you go the JS/TS route, definitely go with MikroORM as your ORM [1]... it is rather newish, but works unlike all other JS/TS ORM's on the open source market. Namely it has implemented Unit of Work...

[1] [https://github.com/mikro-orm/mikro-orm](https://github.com/mikro- orm/mikro-orm)

(Note: v3 is beta and what you should start with. Quite stable as it has 100% coverage.)

</comment><comment><USER6> I know many people who are extremely productive doing CRUD apps using Django. I am not one of those people.

They claim it is very fast development once you get past some comfort level. There is a bit of jump involved when it just clicks. I've tried a few times and it seems like slugging it out with a lot of magic.

While I write and like Python more than PHP, something like Laravel or Symfony seems more logical for CRUD than Django to me.

<comment><USER7> I second that. Been building CRUD apps for a couple of years and Laravel is just so smooth to work with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I just completed my own CRUD App and feel super proud. Simple no non-sense user interface all in Vanila JS along with my own personal hand coded CSS and HTML. Backend using Python Flask with form packages for input forms. Database simple SQLite and authentication using Flask login system. Super simple yet lovely and useful.

</comment><comment><USER9> Rails/Postgres/Heroku/Cloudflare is a great stack. You have the option of scaffolding for quick and dirty mvp test stuff, and you can use something like react_on_rails to do universal rendering of react, which is pretty great too for the more customized and interactive views.

<comment><USER10> Can you clarify how Heroku fits with Cloudflare? If I have a domain registered via Namecheap or Google Domains, then point the appropriate record at my Heroku subdomain, it works easily. Heroku also includes easy SSL support.

I hear about using Cloudflare often for DNS usage, I just have limited experience with the network side of things, so Ive never been clear why it's something that you need a standalone service for at the MVP stage?

<comment><USER9> Oh, cloudflare is amazing. A few really great things it does: free(ish) bandwidth, ddos protection, cdn caching, configurable page rules to apply all sorts of things such as granular caching, workers including a key/value store database, to run code inside 150 points of presence all around the world... Plus it does dns and ssl like you already have.

They do a bunch of other amazing things as well, but those are a few favorite features off the top of my head. Definitely check them out!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Our company has used BulletTrain (RoR) with success - met our unique business needs quickly and at a low cost. Since it's standard Rails we can tap into a big dev community.

[https://bullettrain.co/](https://bullettrain.co/)

<comment><USER12> Is there an equivalent for the PHP world?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It depends what you know. There is a productive option in pretty much every language. If you know JavaScript, you're ahead of the curve simply because you can share so much code between frontend and backend. With tools like next.js it's almost automatic.

The real problem, I think, is that 95% of real business problems are _not_ simple CRUD apps. There is always some complication unique to your domain that burdens you with constraints. Also, it seems like authentication is a problem that is still not solved smoothly without paying for SaaS. It doesn't take long before you feel like you're anything but a standard "CRUD app."

My lesson from the past few years has been this: stay within the guardrails as much as possible. Use frameworks when you can, and try not to deviate too far from their conventions, no matter how tempting. If you stay within these rails, it's fairly easy to ride the flow of changes and keep your code up to date without losing velocity on new features.

Whatever you choose, you're still going to be using it in three years. The safest option is probably to pick something really popular.

<comment><USER14> While it may be true that "95% of real business problems are not simple CRUD apps" it doesn't mean that 95% of webapps can't be implemented _well_ as CRUD apps. I've been doing this for a long time. The Vast VAST majority of webapps are "Take some data from a form and shove it in the database. Take some stuff from the database and shove it on a page. Make a form so that people can edit the stuff in the database. Repeat" We've been adding a lot of fancy interactive JavaScript on top of it, but most of it isn't necessary, and most of it doesn't change the core behavior described above.

Yes, there's frequently a corner of the app that deals with whatever special sauce the company does, but the rest of the app, the majority of the web app.... is very easily handled with CRUD. Even something like Uber: Request a ride (submitting a form "CREATE"). Check the status of an inbound driver ("READ" data from a db). Pick up a user ("UPDATE" the status of the order in the db). Cancel my account ("DELETE" a record from the DB).

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Laravel, Django, or Rails. The productivity comes from being proficient with the tools. Pick the one you like, each is extremely productive, from my experience.

<comment><USER16> I completely agree and I'd add Phoenix to the list! I've found it more productive than Django out of the box and _almost_ at the level of Rails or Laravel. But after a month or two, it's a net win for me since immutability and lack of "magic" makes debugging so much easier.

<comment><USER15> That sounds great. I haven't had the opportunity to use Phoenix yet but I'd like to sometime.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Make use of the tools you are most familiar with. You want delays to arise from your understanding of the problem domain rather that the platform upon which you are building it. Also if you are targeting the simplest and most flexible execution, then you should accept that the platform you choose for v1 might not be the same for v2 as more specific use cases might emerge that will enable you to better compare frameworks and platforms.

</comment><comment><USER18> It is very easy to build a CRUD app with reasonable security using [Meteor]([https://www.meteor.com/](https://www.meteor.com/)) and its [autoform]([https://github.com/aldeed/meteor- autoform](https://github.com/aldeed/meteor-autoform)) package.

The best part is you retain complete freedom and control to manage any part of the process both on the client and server side and "hook" in practically anything else on top of it.

Even in Meteor there are new ways but require more learning.

[Django]([https://www.djangoproject.com/](https://www.djangoproject.com/)) is also very good if you like Python.

IMHO, the best part of both is that you don't need to worry about a TON of standard functionalities like authentication, logging, messaging, security (to a good extent), user management, etc.

I program on the side and focus more on the business, and just find comfort in JS although I do analytical work in Python (and integrate them using hacks and bridges .... works fine for most part ... little slow and clunky but works and saves a lot of dev time)

<comment><USER19> I might be wrong, because it's been a while since I developed a Meteor app, but doesn't Meteor come with real time data sync from server to all its clients using web socket?

In such case, I wouldn't agree with recommending Meteor for a simple CRUD app because naturally there are lots of performance overhead and moving parts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I just discovered today's discussion here on HN about building a CRUD app with Datomic Cloud Ions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490305](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21490305)

</comment><comment><USER21> I still think Rails is the fastest way, but any of the "monolith" frameworks (django, etc) is similarly fast, once you know the tooling well.

</comment><comment><USER22> If you use node, then FeathersJS is good. [https://feathersjs.com/](https://feathersjs.com/)

</comment><comment><USER23> I've found it relatively easy (and very quick) to get something up and running with Firestore/Firebase and React.js.

</comment><comment><USER24> I recently discovered 8base: [https://www.8base.com/](https://www.8base.com/) I haven't tried it yet, but based on documentation looks promising.

</comment><comment><USER25> Web based spreadsheets are one sweet spot. Generally simplest and most flexible are conflicting requirements.

<comment><USER26> limited querying capabilities though.

<comment><USER25> Yep. There are some clunky escape hatches (you can use simple SQL in QUERY() or script in JS etc) in Google Sheets at least. But you should use or migrate to something else if you know you're going to need them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I like python flask! Great flexibility, and it has a great plugin ecosystem.

<comment><USER28> I have a pretty simple boilerplate Flask setup for a pretty quick deployment utilizing a number of Flask's extensions to handle users.

<comment><USER26> That's the way....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Well Express + Express Generator is pretty neat in NodeJS ecosystem.

</comment><comment><USER30> SailsJS Blueprint API are still my favorite. [https://sailsjs.com/documentation/concepts/blueprints](https://sailsjs.com/documentation/concepts/blueprints)

<comment><USER31> Is Sails even maintained anymore?

I remember using it around 3 years ago, it easy to start with, but as soon as your data structure becomes more complex and you need a bit more than plain CRUD, it becomes very messy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Express + Objection.js + SQLite

</comment><comment><USER33> > simplest

> most flexible

Pick one.

</comment><comment><USER34> Odoo is probably the fastest way to create crud apps, especially with Odoo Studio: [https://www.odoo.com/page/studio](https://www.odoo.com/page/studio)

<comment><USER35> Your history involves a lot of Odoo posts. If you're involved with that project, you should disclose that.

<comment><USER36> He's the founder and CEO of Odoo SA. Most of his posts do have a disclaimer, seems like he forgot this time.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Motivating projects to learn functional programming languages? - <AUTHOR>

I've always wanted to learn a language like Haskell, Lisp, Erlang, etc., but I've never been able to motivate myself beyond the first few examples because I haven't found a way to apply it. I've found that the best way I learn is to pick up a project and learn the language/tools/API as I go along — it's strange, but it's much easier for me to lose myself working on a project than an academic exercise. I start putting all the pieces together and eventually everything just "clicks"; I reach an epiphany and can start thinking in the language.<p>Can anyone else relate to this? How do you learn less "practical" languages like these? <comment><USER2> I can relate partially to this. To learn a language fully you need to work on a fairly good size project and one morning you will have 'flow'. It is similar to learning a human language. You need to get to the point where you 'think' in the language and you stop flipping through a fat reference book or jumping from website to website for information.

However, I go a bit different:

(01) I try to go over all the basics and repeat simple exercises from other language books. I do the for loops arrays operators etc ... etc. I spend a lot of time here in order to remember the syntax. I hate syntax mistakes so the earlier I get proficient the better.

(02) Objects and functions break in easily

(03) The web stuff and libraries

(04) Project here. Get your last epiphany and repeat it in Lisp!

I am going through Clojure at the moment and I had to introduce an additional step to the above, an UNLEARN stage, to change my thinking to functional! Current 'epiphany project', type in Clojure code in a textbox, parse with javascript and print the results. I am at 'Hello World' :).

</comment><comment><USER3> Take a look at the FluidDB Weekend of Code[1] and pick a language that nobody's done yet, build a little library implementing their API in that language, and you'll end up with two new cutting-edge skills. (And a free book).

[1] [http://blogs.fluidinfo.com/fluidDB/2009/09/17/fluiddb- weeken...](http://blogs.fluidinfo.com/fluidDB/2009/09/17/fluiddb-weekend-of- code/)

</comment><comment><USER4> I learned scheme through SICP, so I guess I can't relate. However, there is tremendous value in being able to do practical things with a language. While SICP is fun, it won't ever teach you how to use push JSON from one HTTP server to another.

I disagree that these languages are impractical, though.

</comment><comment><USER5> writing a chat bot is a good hello world to erlang, they are also useful and quite fun.</comment>


Improving fluid intelligence with training on working memory - <AUTHOR> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2008/04/25/0801268105.full.pdf

<comment><USER2> I just printed out the linked paper and read it. It reminds me of other papers I have read in the behavioral genetics seminar of the psychology department of our local university.

<http://www.psych.umn.edu/courses/fall10/psy8935/default.htm>

In the seminar, the assembled faculty members, graduate students, and interested members of the general public (I am in the last category) discuss research papers in psychology and try to make sense of what new papers are claiming. We look at the study methodologies to see if sample sizes are adequate, control groups are adequately assembled, and statistical analysis of the data has been done properly. If my recollection is correct, this particular paper was mentioned at least in passing at one of the seminar sessions last school year, when I began attending the seminar.

Looking at all the issues that one would look at while examining a research paper,

<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>

it seems to me that this paper suggests an intriguing area for further research, but I would be doubtful of taking this to the bank by signing up for the training course mentioned in the paper in the expectation of increasing my IQ score (much less, in the expectation of increasing my performance in the real world outside the testing room). Working memory plainly has something to do with real world cognitive performance--all the intelligence researchers are looking at that issue these days--

<http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=working+memory+IQ>

and working memory plainly can be improved by some forms of training. But there is a long way to go before we can say with confidence which form of training will have the most impact at least expense and inconvenience for the greatest number of human beings grappling with real-world cognitive tasks.

<comment> barry-cotter If you're going to read a paper on n-back you should read gwern's FAQ on it.

<http://www.gwern.net/N-back%20FAQ.html>

<comment><USER3> For tokenadult, I would particularly point out <http://www.gwern.net/N-back%20FAQ.html#criticism>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is interesting:

"The adaptive character of the training leads to continual engagement of executive processes while only minimally allowing the development of automatic processes and task-specific strategies."

In Iconclast, Gregory Burns talks about 2 pathways in the brain, one used for tasks we know how to do and one for new tasks. Using the latter, he says, is when we are being creative. And he presents ways to use the latter more frequently.

In meditation, one of the most important lessons is to realize that there is the thinking brain, which is the conditioned mind and is concerned with time, the past and the future.

And there is the listener, the one that gets a chance to solve problems when the thinker gives up. We can't even see how it works. There is no visible linear thought process. The brain is not using that automatic pathway. It lives in and pays attention to the present, not what happened in the past or what may someday happen. It is about being present.

So training this listener part of the brain, the unconditioned part, makes sense to me. We've all known people that are stuck repeating conditioned behaviors. There's no doubt this interferes with achievement.

</comment><comment><USER5> Here is a link to BrainWorkshop. It's a dual N-Back game based on Jaeggi's work.

<http://brainworkshop.sourceforge.net/>

</comment><comment><USER6> I wrote an iPhone app based on this. It did really well in the early days of the app store. I have since given up updating it and made it free. Enjoy.

<http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/iq-boost/id286574399?mt=8></comment>


Show HN: Our YC S12 application - Roomify.tv One-click video meeting rooms - <AUTHOR> http://www.roomify.tv

<comment><USER2> I like the feel of the website; it was designed nicely. But I'm concerned about the concept's uniqueness.

How are you more unique than the comparable alternatives that exist? Google HangOuts, Skype, etc?

How will you overcome the fact that major players are already heavily in this field?

How will you make money?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good points.

Roomify simplifies video conferencing. Google Hangouts/Skype require users to be part of a network. In many cases users do not want to 'Contact' users in Skype or join Google+. Since the room is just a url, users can bookmark it and always return to the same room.

The pro version will allow premium users to have password protected rooms, and to white label the rooms with their own url. Since this is all web-based the 'Create a room' button could be placed anywhere, on your own site or on a corporate intranet. It is like having your own 'Hangout'. Not affiliated to anyone and not requiring login.

Our technology allows us to have 1,000's of users in a single room. We have built rooms apps too (shared html whiteboard, screen sharing etc). So in the long term we are looking to 'Roomify' all physical rooms. You could teach a class, hold a conference or just hold a meeting like we offer now.

Finally, we are planning a payment system that will allow room owners to charge to attend their room. So teachers and speakers could earn money from their attendees.

<comment><USER2> I like that last idea a lot.

<comment><AUTHOR> yip we started building this but ran out of resources and had to focus on Roomify.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fms9qM7QG9g>

Others have tried (eg edufire.com) but using Flash video chat, which is not great. If people are paying for someone's knowledge/expertise it needs to be delivered perfectly.

Roomify is a more generic version. It is a tool rather than a marketplace. In the future we could do something similar to the above and create a marketplace with in Roomify.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Do you already support/plan to support Mobile phones /Tablets with your high quality plugin?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes we will. iOS first and then Android. Do you require video and voice or just voice?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like the design and t he message. when you say one click it should be one click.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks.

To get professional quality audio and video we need the user to install a plugin the first time they use the product. This is similar to the Google Hangouts plugin.

The plugin only needs to be installed once. We then automatically update it when the user returns.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> All feedback welcome.</comment>


Rules To Follow When Cell Phones Drop Coverage - <AUTHOR> http://rwolpert.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/05/rules-to-follow.html

<comment><USER2> No one should call back. What you were jabbering about wasn't that important anyway.

</comment><comment><USER3> Sounds like the beginnings of a Seinfeld episode.

Who ARE these people that Double-call The Callback?

<comment><USER4> oh I do miss seinfeld ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Why don't we make like TCP/IP packets: if there's a collision (i.e., you reach voicemail on a callback after a dropped call), wait a random number of seconds before trying to call again.

I actually do this all the time, and it works great.

<comment><USER6> Exponential backoff also works exceptionally well in the case of dead batteries.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This not new. The phone etiquette since Day 1 has been that the person who made the call, redials.</comment>


How to Remedy a Lost Cashier's Check - <AUTHOR> http://prosperopedia.com/lost-cashiers-check-heres-what-to-do/ <comment><USER2> Mirror: [https://web.archive.org/web/20181227191800/http://www.prospe...](https://web.archive.org/web/20181227191800/http://www.prosperopedia.com/lost- cashiers-check-heres-what-to-do/)

</comment><comment><USER3> It's amazing to me that we still have paper processes like this. Similar is the situation when you want to rollover a 401k account. Many institutions insist on snail mailing you a check for the full amount, that you must the mail on to the next fund. Ridiculous.

<comment><USER4> > _Many institutions insist on snail mailing you a check for the full amount, > that you must the mail on to the next fund. Ridiculous._

You can also typically provide the destination fund as a mailing address and not have to manually forward it, but, yes, this is weirdly still paper mail.

The US Treasury also allows you to convert old paper savings bonds into electronic format by sending them in the mail. I expect that the theft rate for envelopes sent to the US treasury is exceptionally high.

<comment><USER5> Better send them around April 15 then.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> TLDR; call or enter the bank and say, "I lost the cashier's check." They'll tell you what to do and it involves snail paperwork and a few months (possibly) of waiting.</comment>


Ask HN: How much do you make in London? - <AUTHOR> There's recently been a lot of discussion about how much people are making in different areas of the US, but the threads about London are either outdated or not too comprehensive.
Please include your company (be it BigCo, startup, finance) / contractor status, level / years of experience and compensation breakdown in GBP.
I'll start: Investment bank front-office, 3 years experience: £59k, ~10% annual bonus, no stock.
Links to previous somehow related discussions on HN:
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7672167
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317897
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5804134 <comment><USER6> Reading some of the amounts listed is a bit depressing, I thought that the increased cost of living in London would justify salaries and rates much higher than the average.

By contrast I know from personal experience you can earn the same or better than what's listed here outside of London and enjoy the lower cost of living.

<comment><USER7> Any recommended locations to look at?

<comment><USER6> Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol, Liverpool... probably in that order. I've heard good things about Glasgow, Birmingham and Cardiff too. The North West has been good to me and I've never really had to leave the area because there's pretty good transportation links over a wide area with a large population.

And I've lived and worked in Berlin too, it's nice, but by no means the perfect solution. And y'know... it means I can live close to family by being in the UK.

<comment><USER8> You should try Nottingham too. There is at least 1 major brand with deep pockets offering very interesting amounts of money for developers at the moment.

<comment><USER9> What is the company? Recently moved to Nottingham. Not looking for a job but curious to learn more about the tech scene.

<comment><USER10> Alliance / Boots maybe?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Senior Software Engineer (and manager) at Google, ~15 years experience. 100k GBP salary, plus 20% bonus and stock vesting. Gross 200k+ GBP.

<comment><USER12> how's this compare with your colleagues on the state side?

<comment><USER13> London Googlers get paid significantly less than their CA counterparts for the same roles.

<comment><USER14> It's not like there are zero benefits to working in the UK vs the US though. University tuition is cheaper being one example.

<comment><USER15> Way more vacation as well I would presume.

<comment><USER13> Nope - 25 days for the US (assuming >5 years employment) versus 25 days in UK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> ASIC design, 7 years here now. £45k + bonus + pension + healthcare. Without the bonus it isn't anywhere near what you'd get in a bank, explains why so many of my university mates took their EE degrees into finance. Probably partly due to the lack of hardware jobs in the capital. I've always found the name 'Silicon Roundabout' very ironic.

<comment><USER17> Where do you work? There seems to be a significant lack of hardware jobs in London.

<comment><USER16> Nokia (and it's only just about in London). Other than Cambridge, Langley and Bristol there's very little in the UK at all.

<comment><USER17> Ah interesting, I didn't realise they had an office in London. Are there any engineering vacancies at the moment?

<comment><USER16> Graduate positions - yes. Otherwise I'm not sure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is a bit depressing. In 2010 I retired from full-time post as Investment Bank, front office senior dev on £100K with 30-50% bonus, 20 years experience. C++, Java, Sybase, finance tech and domain knowledge, and colleagues in hot areas were getting way more than that. My impression that rates are dropping seems to be confirmed.

<comment><USER12> today you can still get £100k+ as a senior developer in a bank for doing c++, java, with or without domain knowledge, but bonus is likely to be a lot less, more like 15-30%, of course exceptions apply

<comment><USER19> Pure curiosity - is this for an 8 hour day? or 10? or more? Just wondering what the downsides are to working for a bank.

<comment><USER12> everyone's experience is different, but usually the pain is not from long hours, but from bureaucracy, old technology and some hostile colleagues.

<comment><USER19> It's the hostility that would kill me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Senior technical author. I freelanced from 2004-2013. My very first London contract in 2004 was at £350 a day. Nowadays, it's crazy bad - anything from £200 to £400, maybe £450 if your domain knowledge is spot on. And Google - I'm looking at you - contract rates of £20-£25 an hour have been bandied around in conversations with recruiters. So, no real market uplift in more than 10 years, which is why I'm now a permie (not in London) on £55K basic plus 20% bonus, no stock.

</comment><comment><USER20> Degree in Graphic Design, 8 years industry experience, started with Flash / ActionScript and moved to JavaScript about 5 years ago.

Freelance Flash animation / dev for big digital agencies and ad companies (5 years ago) - £250 p/h, with 3 years experience.

Tech Lead - Digital Agency in Shoreditch (1.5 years ago) doing Node / Ember / Angular / DevOps - £45k, however I chose a lower salary for more leave and flexible working hours.

Freelancing JavaScript dev (Node, Angular etc), digital agencies - <USER3> £300-350 p/h

Now I work in Berlin in a dev role doing Node / React / Redux. €57k. My living expenses are 1/2 what they were in London, and I live in a central Berlin 1 bedroom apartment rather than shared housing.

<comment><USER21> >Freelancing JavaScript dev (Node, Angular etc), digital agencies - <USER3> £300-350 p/h

I assume you mean per day and not per hour right?

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> PHP Developer in the Southwest of UK (Devon, Cornwall, Somerset etc) 25k, no bonus - and that's about average. Living here isn't the cheapest either, £600pcm for a 2 bed flat, over £1,000 a year for water.

Really need to move towards the midlands (Bristol, Birmingham, Leicester, Staffordshire - cheaper rent, cheaper water, higher pay)

I've been a Dev for 7+ years.

<comment> J-dawg That does seem awfully low given your experience. I hope you could double that by moving to one of the places you mentioned.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Hadn't worked in the western workforce in 7 years. Turned up in London in 2009, got £40k, kicked ass, had £60k within 3 months, up from there. These days I honestly wouldn't live in London for under £100k. I think the thing to do is contract work, live out of London (even in mainland Europe) if at all possible.

</comment><comment><USER24> Yet another throwaway acct. 20+ years large-scale ops and security, last five with one of the "big five" tech companies. £100K base plus stock worth £150-200K/year depending on which way the market wind was blowing on vesting dates.

Currently doing my own startup and cyber-security consulting for £750-900/day.

</comment><comment><USER25> This thread has me thinking whether all those claims that financial compensation isn't that important in job satisfaction is true or not. How often do we see threads asking about non-financial benefits.

</comment><comment><USER26> Contractor, PHP/Full stack, 11 years exp, £350 - £400 a day in London. Not risen much in 5-6 years which is why i started doing other things like business consultancy.

<comment><USER27> How's business consultancy doing for you? Seems it's better paid, but I prefer the technical side personally.

You surely have more experience than me, but what I personally do is increase my rate by X% every 6 months or so, non-negotiable for new clients, with fair warning for existing ones. I often start a contract on tech X, and after some time I'm touching other parts of the business, so the rate increase makes sense.

<comment><USER26> I actually prefer the business consultancy now. I got bored of writing code all the time, i still do it for fun, but only about 1/3rd of my time for my business is coding now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> While we're on the subject of tech jobs in London... does anyone work with FPGAs?

<comment><USER28> Some investment banks do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Developer (currently at a startup) £62k, no stock but I do have a pension/healthcare.

17 years experience, initially as a general web developer, then front end, now more back end. Currently Ruby on Rails but I can turn my hand to almost anything.

Not a manager, not a senior developer, not a tech lead. No desire to be.

I work quite short hours (9.30-5) and that's what's most important to me.

<comment><USER21> A startup in London that has both a pension and healthcare scheme in place where you work 9.30-5? That's a pretty rare beast.

<comment><USER29> I know! I am very very lucky, and I scouted around for a long time before I found it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> (throwaway account for obvious reasons)

Web Developer in London for a dating company - £75000 pa (with bonuses it's around £110000 pa)

<comment><USER31> Are you a team lead or architect or similar? This seems high for just a web developer

<comment><USER32> More importantly, are they hiring?

<comment><USER30> Actually no :( we just finished hiring some new candidates to fill our team. Like I mentioned in the earlier comment I am an outlier because I do end up working a lot with architectural tasks so maybe my job title doesn't justify my work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Contract Senior Developer, stack is usually SPA (Angular/React) with "modern" .NET.

Current gig £475pd, to be honest I had better leads but the client offered the same day of interview and I started the following day.

I have 6 years experience and no degree.

Guy next to me does the same job for 53k.

Edit: media type of industry. Work normal hours, usually 9-5:30.

</comment><comment><USER10> Throwaway for obvious reasons.

No degree. Around 10 years experience in Network Security.

\- BigCo

\- Permanent position

\- Cloud stuff

\- £66k plus bonus et al which pumps it up to around £88k

<comment><USER10> Adding some important things:

\- Stock

\- Up to 10% pension match

\- I work from home most of the time (got a little kid, so I can enjoy more time around him)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> "Lead Developer" with a startup, £55k (I refused options in preference of salary).

I have a PhD (4 years programming), and ~4 years professional experience as well.

Previous roles: Fresh Graduate: "Developer" £28k + £3k bonus. Fresh PhD Graduate: "Senior Developer" £40k.

<comment><USER21> Mind if I ask what the tech stack is? I wonder if there's significant disparity in relation to the tech stack.

<comment><USER34> Oldest job was SQL/.NET and ActionScript, Post-PhD was mainly Python/C on Linux (I did a lot of that during the PhD too) and latest one is C++, PHP, SQL and little bits of others.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> 1.5 years experience, full-stack web developer at a startup (Ruby, some Go), earning £25k in Central London. I'm broke and it sucks. I've tried interviewing other places but haven't found anywhere offering above £30k.

</comment><comment><USER36> Throwaway. Data Scientist, Insurance, FT, 39k a year, approx 3 years experience.

<comment><USER36> Oh, yeah, also got a PhD in Maths. And am looking for a new position.

<comment><USER19> Shoot me an email (see profile). Medium sized company - analytics, financial services, other interesting data science stuff. Offices in London and elsewhere :-) I'll help steer you to our HR people and if you're successful, will receive a modest introduction bonus. We pay well, but not investment bank salaries. We have lots of PhDs - they're coming out of our ears, so you'll feel quite at home. It also seems that the planets are in alignment for our tech and its place in the market, so things are very upbeat right now.

<comment><USER36> tried, I seem unable to find any email.

<comment><USER19> Sorry firstname.lastname@example.com

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Currently Senior Dev at a startup: £50k + 3.5% equity. Previous Hedge Fund: £95k + 25-50% bonus. Investment Bank: £80k + 25% bonus

Experience: 20 years as a dev. Skills: full stack dev .net, angular, iOS etc.

</comment><comment><USER38> Senior iOS, contract, last year: £575 per day in a medium sized company Switched to a smaller company as Team Lead for £500 per day

</comment><comment><USER39> £650 / day, almost all remote doing Hadoop and Redshift Consulting and POVs. Coding for 15 years, in Big Data for the past 5.

<comment><USER40> How is the contracting market health these days?

Are you finding it easier or harder to find contracts? What is your average downtime between contracts?

<comment><USER39> I had 15 unpaid weeks this year wrapped around the referendum. Last year I had 7 unpaid weeks.

<comment><USER40> Do you rely on random calls from agents throughout the day to setup your next role or do you have a couple you rely on? How many calls / emails do you get a day?

<comment><USER39> Half my contracts are through agents, I spend a lot longer than I'd like to admit on my LinkedIn profile. One agent has admitted they have a 30% margin which explains the ~1,000 phone calls and emails I got last year.

I run a blog, I'm active on Twitter and I've worked with a lot of different businesses and coworkers since I started my career so this is where the other half of my contracts come from.

I've heard from someone at (Big Hadoop Consultancy) that they send consultants out to train and do POVs paying the consulant £1,200 / day so there should be some growth in my day rate to come.

It's probably worth mentioning I only sell my time in one week blocks. I had two contracts this year where a client was having some troubles with Kafka on AWS. The first problem was taken care of in an hour in a half but they were still billed for a week. Same thing a few weeks later when Zookeeper was feeling upset.

<comment><USER40> Thank you for your replies, they were most informative. I'd love to read your blog if you want add me on twitter and DM me, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Contractor 100% remote, full stack, 10y experience, currently £40/h, will increase to £50 before the end of the year.

<comment><USER41> May I ask whats your stack?

<comment><USER27> Current contracts are on PHP, Vue.js and Go. Experienced on backend systems, C, Python, Linux sysadmin, MySQL DBA, and a security enthusiast.

I'm specialised in being a jack of all trades.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Senior Systems Specialist,32k pa. This is in the North East of England. Job actually involves anything from traditional system/network admin to web development and almost everything inbetween, supplier management, procurement. Probably under paid for the roles covered but thankfully not in a major city.

</comment><comment><USER43> Contractor, currently £650/day. Hoping to increase that to £850/day by end of year. Experience > 15 yrs in web dev, though maybe only last 5 applies now (I don't do PHP 3 or perl any more).

Edit: long term so no "off" days & 150k ish per year depending how many holidays I take.

<comment><USER44> How do you plan to get beyond £650/day?

<comment><USER43> Haven't increased my rate in nearly 2 years and soon will be expected to take on extra responsibilities (herding a team etc) so going to negotiate a bump in rate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I have a computer science degree and around 9 years experience doing full- stack web development(Ruby, PHP, Python, JavaScript). A year ago I was making £55k + around £5k worth of perks as permanent employee. Now I'm doing freelance roles for £350-£400 pd.

</comment><comment><USER46> Developer contractor, nearly 20 yr exp., now mainly .NET, works out at just over £1 a minute :-)

</comment><comment><USER47> Just switched roles so can give two:

Small Investment Bank - 61k + ~30% Bonus (3-5years experience) Java / Angular - Back Office Developer - <USER5>

Small Hedge Fund - 65k + 50%+ Bonus (expected/promised) - .Net / WPF (5years experience although not in .Net) - <USER5>

<comment><USER48> What are the hours?

<comment><USER47> Not bad to be honest, 8-7 but I do get out for an hour or so at lunch.

<comment><USER49> Those look pretty bad to someone outside London.

How much travel on top of that?

<comment><USER47> I'm young, so if I'm not coding at work, I would be doing it at home most of the week.

Travel is < 30 minutes each way.

<comment><USER50> But the coding at home would be your IP and you'd have no boss to tell you what tech to use.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> For comparison, in Devon. Full stack senior developer, 20 years experience, full time - £42K.

<comment><USER52> (kind of off topic) considering a move? considered riverford.co.uk? if so fire me your CV...

<comment><USER53> Riverford is hiring? Oh that's funny. Could be fun to work where I buy my veggies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Are we only talking programmer side?

Digital marketing, education sector, 4 years experience: £39k + healthcare

<comment><AUTHOR> Although I initially thought it out for tech, I think any area is relevant. Thanks for sharing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> "Intermediate" dev using Ruby-On-Rails mostly with a bit of Python, JS, and Go: £41k for the first year and £45k for the second. EDIT: no stock, and only benefit was WFH 1 day/week, and 1% matched retirement savings plan.

</comment><comment><USER31> Senior front end developer. 4 years experience. Now a contractor on my first project at £350/day in a big company. Expecting this to rise to 400/450 for the next gig. A few months ago I was full time at a startup on £52K.

<comment><USER55> 48k, London startup, frontend, 2.5 yrs exp. Took a paycut from 52.5k (@ 1.5 yrs exp) for this role.

Off topic - As someone in your exact previous position and looking to make the same move to contracting do you have any advice, did you find it easy to land that first contract?

<comment><USER31> I did find it quite easy. I just followed up with a recruiter, went to interview and got the job. You usually have to start fairly quickly so have some holiday banked up so you can leave permanent work sooner.

The work, culture, etc is similar to any other permanent job I've had. As long as you keep up to date and are good you'll be fine. Other companies may differ wildly I'm sure

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Semi-related question: How do you calculate taxes in UK? Is the base of the tax the salary offered by companies in job offers? I mean, with say £60k job offer, do I pay tax from £60k? (with the last £17k being taxed at 40%)?

<comment><USER57> Nope, you pay tax on the full amount. Each taxpayer has a personal allowance (currently £11,000 generally, but this varies) on which no tax is paid; a rate of 20% applies to income between £11,000 and £42,000, a rate of 40% on income between £42,000 and £161,000, and a rate of 45% above that.

<comment><USER58> Don't forget you start to lose the personal allowance at 100k, so someone earning earn between 100k and ~122k has a top rate of 60%

</comment></comment></comment><comment> J-dawg Front end developer, large IT consultancy, £35k, no bonus. Feeling underpaid.

</comment><comment><USER44> Senior Web Dev £550/day 7 years experience no degree.

Startup salaries topped out at 80k (ignoring non-liquid stock) so went contracting. You need the stomach for it, but it pays a lot better for similar work.

</comment><comment><USER59> Finance, QA, permie, 5 yrs exp., 56k + ~10k bonus.

I've been longing to go contracting in the last few months, but judging by the sentiment on this thread, it doesn't look like it's a wise choice.

</comment><comment><USER60> This is kind of offtopic, but "There's recently been a lot of discussion about how much people are making in different areas of the US". Where can I find that post? Thanks

<comment><USER61> Most likely this one: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12588202](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12588202)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't work in London but I know many people who do. The experience Scala developers I know who work contracts get £500-£700pd outside of banks, and £600-£900pd in the banks.

<comment><USER62> The Cassandra guys I know get at least £1K per day. They are the top of the top but you can get paid serious bank doing SMACK stack type gigs

<comment><USER63> High demand. Very small supply.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Snr Cloud / Infra. £650 day remote working (desk in London but physically in the office 1-2 days a month), 1 yr contract - but renewable. Annualised, £156K

<comment><USER10> Do you mind describing what are your daily tasks in broad terms?

Asking for a... uh, for a friend. Yeah.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Front-Office Quant Research in French bank, 4 years experience, £70k fix + £35k bonus. Definitely lower that what you would get in a US or UK bank.

</comment><comment><USER66> Startup, full time employee, called Senior but I only have one year of commercial experience, £47,500. ~10% annual bonus & Stock Options.

</comment><comment><USER67> Lead a team of 6 in one devision of a medium sized org. Web services + api. ~10 years exp. £85k plus 30% bonus (expected), no stock.

</comment><comment><USER68> 70k + stock + 1% matched pension. Senior software engineer. PhD and 4 years professional experience. Work 9:30 to 6. Ruby on Rails.

Throwaway account

</comment><comment><USER69> Senior developer with a front-end focus at a startup with some corporate backing, 7 years of experience, ~80k plus benefits.

</comment><comment><USER70> Established privately held (profitable) company, full-time tech-lead, Telecoms + Web + Backend, 10 years experience - £50k.

</comment><comment><USER71> At a major retail company, here are our published ranges: Engineer £40-65K Senior Engineer £60-80K Principal £75-95k

</comment><comment><USER72> 7 years of experience, mostly PHP and Python. Started at 44 after 2 years 51k. Now got offer for 80k~ as devops.

</comment><comment><USER73> In 2013 I declined an offer (first job, graduate): software dev in bigco (IT Provider travel industry), £38K

</comment><comment><USER74> Startup, Software Engineer (JavaScript), 2.5 years experience (Grad May '14), 38k, 12% bonus.

</comment><comment><USER75> Senior Infrastructure specialist, big bank, 14 years, £450 a day, annualises to about £110k

</comment><comment><USER76> Software Developer - 13 years experience

One of the big tech companies

70k Base 20k Bonus \+ ~20k / year stock vesting

</comment><comment><USER77> £52k, some stock, healthcare. Senior dev in a video game company. ~8 year experience

</comment><comment><USER12> Contractor, £700/day, investment bank, back office role

10 years C++, specialised in low latency

</comment><comment><USER78> Full stack (mostly PHP) contractor, 15 years experience, 100% remote, £400/day

</comment><comment><USER79> Quant risk analyst for a commodities trading house

Base £67k Bonus anywhere between 15 to 50%

<comment><USER79> 5 years xp

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> Contract PM in Investment Banking IT, 20+ years experience, £800/day.

</comment><comment><USER81> Senior developer in the Civil Service, 8 years experience, £60k/year

</comment><comment><USER82> 45k pa working as a DevOps for one of the console companies for 2 years.

</comment><comment><USER83> Mid senior Android Developer in social network £55k +12% bonus no stock

</comment><comment><USER84> Software engineer (front-end) 8 years experience

77k basic 10k bonus plus stocks

</comment><comment><USER85> working for an engineering consultancy at a very senior technical level, overseeing big data projects, and doing some business development. £80k p/a plus benefits

</comment><comment><USER86> Im not in London still in(uk), 1.5years IT Security,18k :(

</comment><comment><USER87> Full time senior Java/Scala/JS @ £48K :/

</comment><comment><USER88> Used to make £32k at startup. 3 years of experience .

</comment><comment><USER89> 6 years experience. software developer 450£ per day

<comment><USER56> what is your stack? frontend, java, c++ (and, do you work in finance?)

<comment><USER89> nodejs right now, but I'm full stack

I don't work in finance

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> yikes!

28k in London, full stack dev with 2 years experience... react + redux, node, express, elasticsearch, rabbitmq, postgres, mongo etc.

</comment><comment><USER91> Throwaway. £79k + stock option + benefits

<comment><USER91> forgot to add - startup, 16 years of experience. lead role

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> throwaway account

Front office large investment bank. Java. Perm. 15 years in banking, 20 years in programming

110k - no significant bonus.

</comment><comment><USER93> lead developer, no degree, gaming: 75k base + 30k bonus. Mostly c++, some objectiveC and java

<comment><USER93> 7 years of experience

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> May I suggest something more anonymous like a google spreadsheet? Or a HN poll?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think keeping it in comments here is better since spreadsheets tend to to have a lot of messed up data (looking at previous surveys). What people share is definitely free-form, so I'd prefer to leave the data rather unstructured. Creating a throwaway is also really easy and bogus comments are easier to deal with than someone messing with the spreadsheet.

However, I've created a spreadsheet ([https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MAIX9UEnpq0pAsMWr1NW...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MAIX9UEnpq0pAsMWr1NWzkmQxfVXJj2CeeZGaEAHHfQ/edit#gid=0)) if anyone prefers that.

<comment><USER49> I recommend making a web form using Google spreadsheets - which takes 3 minutes, and making the spreadsheet read-only.

When I last posted an open spreadsheet to hacker news it grew, then got defaced with all the data deleted. Someone restored it but it was work to ensure no data was lost.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER94> Those people @ 55 - 60k (EUROS) should really ask themselves if it's worth working in London.

<comment><USER95> Can they do better elsewhere in the UK? Seems like many options except move to the US

<comment><USER94> I do not have the statistics but you can earn that much elsewhere and pay less rent & other costs of living.

Well so unless you are a briton or you love the country / city too much I do not see a reason not to move elsewhere.</comment></comment></comment>


Signs of Cardiac Damage Even in Younger, Nonhospitalized Covid-19 Patients - T-A https://www.tctmd.com/news/signs-cardiac-damage-even-younger-nonhospitalized-covid-19-patients <comment><AUTHOR> "Younger" meaning a median age of 49.

This type of catastrophizing is tiring. New medical knowledge is interesting, sure. But all these new papers seem like they're used to try to scare healthy people.

I think society suffers more and would be better served solving widespread, debilitating chronic illness like obesity than knee-capping the entire global economy and turning people into agoraphobes over a respiratory illness where ~80% have mild illness and the people who succumb are usually elderly and infirm.

</comment><comment> T-A Journal article:

[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916)</comment>


The Texas Biker Gang Shoot-Out - <AUTHOR> http://www.gq.com/story/untold-story-texas-biker-gang-shoot-out <comment><USER2> I have lived in Waco for 5+ years. Never experienced a 'biker gang' or heard of biker related violence here.

I had my run with the law that disenchanted me. I saw a city worker stealing mail. I was laughed at by the police officer and almost charged for wrongfully calling 911. City worker tried slamming their car door in my face while I was talking to the officer, and the officer laughed again. I just walked away at that point.

The head of the grand jury is obvious bias. The imprisonments for 'being present' are insane. A blanket bail that is an unreasonable amount is odd. The false propaganda that biker gangs from all over the USA were flooding towards Waco with terrorist weapons was just a blatant lie.

Tip or not, why was full swat basically waiting in the parking lot before the event? Any other day, they wouldn't care if a few <insert anything not living in Hewitt> picked each other off in the parking lot. If they had a feeling something was going down, why not be proactive instead of reactive?

House taxes rise, school budgets cut, service cuts, and dodgy press release guy gets a promotion. yay. At least Baylor made a new shiny stadium to distract the general population.

Edit: Oh yeah, the current 'Waco Warrant Roundup' posted names of everyone with known warrants in the county. They're pulling over everyone and running warrant searches. Seems unlawful. I got pulled over and warrant checked because of 'loose articles in truckbed'. It was a bloody tie down strap that was hooked to the truck.

<comment><USER3> Police almost seem like sales people on commission.. Except their sales quotas put people in prison.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> >>Peterson signed all 177 of the so-called cookie-cutter probable-cause affidavits in bulk, without specifying the evidence against each individual defendant. Peterson, it turns out, is a former state trooper with no legal training.

Hate lawyers and law schools if you want, but they have their time and place. The problem here seams not that officers broke the law, but that they seem not to have any understanding of the law in the first place. Instead of planning and deliberation, they were all showboating against each other. The whole incident reads like a script for Lethal Weapon IV.

</comment><comment><USER5> Gangs form around an economy. In the case of OMGs, the economy is drug and human trafficking, extortion, contract slaying and various other illicit businesses. Many OMGs are made up of a large percentage of ex military, with the USMC highly represented. Ditto for police forces, maybe not as much USMC. Considering how many soldiers we have, it's no surprise that OMGs are on the rise. You can thank the GWoT for that. They fight over economic power, often expressed as turf wars. So those are the dots. It's not hard to connect them.

The bottom line is three gangs met that day. Two of them without an official mandate.

<comment><USER3> Read the article and you'll see it's more about the legal aspects of a situation where 177 people were indiscriminately sent to jail on rubber stamped charges.

Imagine being in an IRC channel with a 200 people and 10 of them got into a fight, presumably hacked each other, and than everyone in the channel is arrested on felony charges, and sent to jail with $100,000 bonds. Allegedly there may have been provocation and excessive weapons use by the police posing as members of rival groups.

<comment><USER5> No I saw that. But this is Texas we're talking about. Texas is one of the most corrupt states when it comes to criminal justice. There have been articles written about how people end up stuck in the system for years based on only one charge of vagrancy. Lubbock is one of the worst places to get arrested in the US, for example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "The city of Waco is looking at paying out hundreds of millions of dollars," says Michael White, Wilson's attorney.

This is the real problem. The police operate on a blank check principle and are held to zero accountability. The taxpayers are the real victims here.

<comment><USER7> > The police operate on a blank check principle and are held to zero > accountability. The taxpayers are the real victims here.

It's the taxpayers that are giving them that blank check in the first place. They're not victims, they're complicit.

<comment><USER8> Which taxpayers voted for the blank check?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> How in the world is the head of the Grand Jury a Waco police officer who was at least a little involved with the incident? Shouldn't he have been recused from that process?

</comment><comment><USER10> Almost as bad as some Agile meetings I've attended :)

</comment><comment><USER11> Police say it's the bikers, bikers say it's the police. I don't trust either of them.

<comment><USER9> Who can tell? Although I bet both groups have some amount of culpability in this one. We'll probably never know for sure what really happened, except possibly if there's video available.

<comment><USER12> Supposedly there _is_ video footage and there are ballistics reports. So far - as noted in the article - the Waco police have suppressed it.

Since we're over 4 months later, I'm not sure how they're still being held without trial. Criminal thugs or not, they MUST have their day in court and the opportunity to defend themselves.

Or the system is all a sham after all..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> There was also a shooting at a Twin Peaks in Webster a few months later. Maybe 'Bike Night' doesn't promote a family friendly crowd. If breasteraunts want to gather these gangs up and feed them alcohol, they should be held partially responsible.

</comment><comment><USER14> "In November 2013, two Cossacks were stabbed in a roadhouse parking lot in Abilene;"

Roadhouse? As in Logan's Roadhouse? As in the Chili's of the great plains? That stabbing happened in a Logan's Roadhouse parking lot, not the Road House where James Dalton bounced. This is a fascinating story, but it loses some credibility (to me) with a purposeful omission like that.

</comment><comment><USER15> Are biker gangs on the rise following Sons of Anarchy, which depicted outlaw biker gangs in a semi-glorious(?) light, or are they just getting more media attention?

The Hell's Angels and such have been around forever, but I never much heard about them until a couple of years ago.

<comment><USER16> I think you answered your own question. The Hells Angels _have_ been around for-...well, since just after WWII. Hunter S. Thompson wrote a book about them. Made somewhat famous when they provided security for a Rolling Stones concert in Altamont, CA and a concert-goer ended up getting stabbed. Much like Sons of Anarchy, the bikes are just a prop; they're really just organized crime. But they've been around, occasionally making news. I probably run in different circles than you do, but Hells Angels have always been popping up in the news from time to time over the years.

Are people watching _Sons of Anarchy_ and saying, "I want to join an outlaw biker gang?", and hence "on the rise" as you put it? I dunno, when _Goodfellas_ or _The Sopranos_ came out, did the mafia start to be "on the rise"? No. Such things might get more attention by the media when the topic comes out in popular media, which might sell more ads, so more stories are produced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I'd be very interested in the bullets recovered from the scene, but it sounds like that's not happening. The whole talk of long guns and a police trap sounds sadly totally expected with American police.

</comment><comment><USER18> what a bunch of stupid children

</comment><comment><USER19> Drugs, prostitution, money laundering, violence and protection rackets. I really don't think that we should have a problem with the removal of such people from our society.

<comment><USER20> Some of us have a VERY big problem with such removal without review by judge & jury. Seems the police were already there and prepared for a battle, and there's a viable theory they were just waiting for an excuse (not the first time such has happened in Waco, with comparably bad results). We have a judicial process for a reason, and bad things happen when "removal of such people" is taken lightly.

<comment><USER21> The police could well have been there because they had good reason to suspect that there was going to be trouble.

> and there's a viable theory they were just waiting for an excuse

But is there a viable theory that the police started the shooting?

If you're going to start a shootout in town, and the police are there in force to try to stop that from happening, and you start a shootout _anyway_ , and the police shoot you to get you to stop shooting other people, well... I don't have much room for feeling like the police are out of control there.

If you have evidence that says that I misunderstood the way events happened, feel free to correct my understanding...

<comment><USER10> Police acting as agent provocateurs is not new: [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they- went-...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/quebec-police-admit-they-went- undercover-at-montebello-protest-1.656171)

<comment><USER21> I get that. Is there _evidence_ that the police were doing so _in this case?_

<comment><USER20> Such evidence is rarely obvious. Police are refusing to provide what evidence they do have (videos etc), judges have offered "we'll drop charges if you don't counter-charge", sweeping million-dollar bonds imposed on 177 people present are being seriously reduced or dropped, and other highly suspect actions are raising red flags.

What we do have is narratives from bikers present, and some photographic evidence that raises doubts about who started it. There's a lot to discuss/research, so I'll just give you a couple links as major starting points. I'm not saying whether I agree/accept the theories or not, just that we don't have enough definitive evidence to support or deny the conspiracy theory.

Short version: police snipers were already positioned, an undercover agent either started something or was "made", a fight was provoked and police were strangely quick to start firing.

[http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/19/biker-truthers- eme...](http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/05/19/biker-truthers-emerge- calling-waco-shootout-a-police-massacre/) [http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/27/waco-twin- pea...](http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/27/waco-twin-peaks- shooting-the-crossfire/comment-page-1/)

(Please don't launch into criticizing the messengers; this is about the message.)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Shenzhen's never-ending skyscraper boom - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/23/architecture/shenzhen-skyscraper/index.html <comment><USER2> Here in Shenzhen, I would argue that it's fairly clear to anyone on the ground that the boom has ended.

There are currently a host of half-finished huge buildings that are not being completed. For instance, I can see a bunch from my window. This is most likely due to lapsed demand and reduced speculative investment in the sector.

This is really just a delayed adjustment along the lines of an established national change, Shenzhen possibly encountered the slowdown later owing to increased expectations/hype/financing availability and special economic and political darling status.

I would say from physical observation that the second half of last year was the real slow down, things haven't changed much since then.

The local real estate market is pretty expensive... a lot of people who bought apartments 10 years ago are now USD multi-millionaires, despite having real incomes as low as 1-2000USD/month. As a consequence of consistent price growth, purchasing a small apartment now costs about the same as Sydney, with a median price above USD$1M. It is fairly difficult to rent a halfway decent apartment under about 6000CNY (~1000USD)/month, many pay double that or more.

<comment><USER3> Similar situation here in some parts of India. There are dollar millionaires on paper with family incomes of under $1500/month, all because they bought an apartment in Delhi 10 years ago.

The problem is, there are no buyers. The apartments are priced at $1M on paper, but there are no buyers.

I wonder what will happen once the bubble collapses.

A good brand new apartment in a decent part of Gurgaon, India, will set you back by at least $800+/month

<comment><USER4> Why would anyone value property higher than people are willing to pay? Wouldn't that just mean more property tax? Usually it's the opposite.

<comment><USER5> > Why would anyone value property higher than people are willing to pay? > Wouldn't that just mean more property tax?

The idea between property tax seems to be different between countries. I learned that in some countries you pay annual property tax based on the estimated value of your property - which would be not-beneficial like you said.

Here in germany you pay an annual property tax which is calculated based on the land area that you own. E.g. you pay for 200m^2, and the amount of tax per m^2 is fixed by the city. That means you would pay the same independent of whether you value or property at 1€ oder 10M€. There's also a real estate transfer tax which the buyer of a property needs to pay. This is calculated based on the real price. However it doesn't affect the seller. So valuing your property higher than it's market value has no tax implications, but of course it will be a lot harder to really sell it for more than market rate.

<comment><USER6> Wouldn't this mean the guy with a condo block on his 200m^2 is being subsidized by the retiree with a single-family home on her 200m^2? More infrastructure, schools, wider streets needed for the condo.

Does Germany not fund its schools with property tax?

<comment><USER7> They are not correct. Property tax in Germany is based on some fictious value (which is not necessarily close to market value) calculated using an old algorithm. Usuable floor area is an an important input, so a condo block and a family home are not taxed equally.

There have been serious proposals for reform in the past few years but a tax based on land area alone was not seriously considered so far by the competent body as far as I know (but there have been calls for them to do so e.g. by some mayors).

Nonetheless, property tax ends up in the hands of municipalities, making up about 15% of their budget on average. Roads and schools are only partially funded through the municipality's budget, a huge chunk comes from higher levels. For schools, municipalities pay about one third of the cost (again, on average). This ensures e.g. that schools are adequately funded even in poor districts. It also has practical reasons. For example teachers are usually not employed by the school itself but civil servants of the state delegated to teach at the school. Thus their salary doesn't end up in the school's budget.

Distribution of tax income and expenses between the different levels of government is highly political and constantly bargained. For example, just this year was decided that the federal government gets more administrative rights regarding highways and digitalization ("data highways") for giving the states 4B€ more of the sales tax.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> China is currently caught in a trap between speculative demand, demand by speculators who hope real estate asset prices will keep increasing, and real demand of actual use for these assets. It is difficult to see what the real demand for these sky scrapers are, even if they have no problem selling them off to speculators. Who knows how this will end, hopefully real demand will catch up but I'm guessing there will be a Japan-scale real estate crash eventually.

I was fortunate to stay at the hotel at the top of Guangzhou's IFC (the first and probably last time I get a room that is above the 90th floor). Looking down on Guangzhou's skyline, at least, it was very beautiful (especially when a lightning storm rolled in).

<comment><USER9> My biggest issue with my local housing market is what you might consider a commercialisation of residential real estate. Property prices don't reflect their value as places to live and their location, but rather their ability to be a vehicle for investment income. High rent ensues and yet the lower demand for those properties as rentals doesn't deter the property prices from rising. Currently there are a handful of almost completely empty apartment buildings in the CBD.

People can't afford to rent or buy them yet they still move about the property market.

At some point they will surely come back into circulation at a price that makes sense for individuals, that is of course if they aren't all owned entirely by corporate scale landlords with bigger pockets.

<comment><USER10> > yet the lower demand for those properties as rentals doesn't deter the > property prices from rising.

this is an interesting phenomenon, because it's the same mechanism (imho anway, as an armchair economist) as gold prices rising during uncertain times. The actual use of gold is little to none, and yet, as a store of value, everyone in the society agrees on its stability/valuation, even in times of gov't hostility.

If you look at property this way, chinese speculators are using the same line of thinking - where they actually don't want the apartment to be rented out (and thus, look/feel 'used'). The price reflects not the utility, but as a store of value.

I think the fundamental reason this is happening is that the chinese do not trust their own gov't enough to store their assets in a more liquid form. Or, perhaps there's really no other forms of storage that's not risky. And those who can't bring their currency assets out of the country then must choose real-estate.

<comment><USER9> You can see the utility as a store of value in international investment properties too. A part of the problem driving prices up in my locale. Chinese and other international investors seeking to store wealth will purchase properties here, and they will pay prices that the local market wouldn't. That drives the prices up, as locals with property want a piece of that international cash. Meanwhile the property can go underutilized and the community it is in gains nothing.

<comment><USER10> > Meanwhile the property can go underutilized and the community it is in gains > nothing.

but what doesn't make sense to me is why not build more property to sell?

The money the original owners got for selling must be circulating somewhere, which means a boost to the local economy, which means they should have money to invest in new development.

<comment><USER8> If property is being used as a speculative asset, building more doesn't make sense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> A former coworker from China said a lot of real estate (particularly civil construction) happens when a new mayor or other leader gets appointed. New construction is a great source of graft - I will order the new construction if you give me 10% (or whatever the rate is). So things get built over and over again, or built and abandoned.

</comment><comment><USER12> it may look cool from far away, like a skyline shot, all lit up. However at micro level, streets in China (especially newly developed) are entirely indiscernible and total lack of character.

If you watch any of the driving in China videos on youtube, you'll see that streets are lined with shops and sidewalks that are sterile and look identical block after block...

There are exceptions of course, city squares, etc, are largely unique from one another.. but once you get into the urban residential and shopping districts, they mostly are all identical

<comment><USER13> That's funny. All my Chinese relatives say the same thing about Europe. Once you have seen a European city, they are all the same.

In contrast, they think China is diverse.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out- group_homogeneity](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity)

<comment><USER8> They have a point. As an American, I found Switzerland to be a bit more diverse than Beijing, having lived in both.

The big problem is Chinese brick and mortar retail is so dysfunctional, and it will never be fixed since online shopping has easily solved that problem around it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It would be much nicer if they didn't put photos of Moscow to illustrate China.

<comment><USER15> If you read the captions, it's attributed properly.</comment></comment>


Ask YC: Whats better than AJAX? - <AUTHOR>

What will be the most common web application framework for the next ten years.  I'm just getting started in the industry and plan to put in my time.  I want to do some indepth study and have been visiting the usual channels that discuss "the best" languages. Given that you YC folks are in the eye of the storm I thought to ask you. Best, <comment><USER2> If you'd asked this question ten years ago, the 'answer' would have been Java applets. Yeah.

Unless web browsers somehow become obsolete in the next ten years, you're looking at an evolved version of what we have now. HTTP, CSS, XHTML, and JS have plenty of room for improvement. It takes years for the standards to be worked out and longer for browser support, which is never 100%. Add a few more years for developers to take full advantage of the new capabilities.

What we'll have in ten years will be another iteration or two on what we have now.

</comment><comment><USER3> This (<http://gears.google.com/>) has a lot of potential. But only time will tell what new technology really makes a difference.

Trying to figure out what is the best technology and then learning that is a great goal but I think it's more important to learn a variety of technologies and be ready to adapt quickly to new things.

Learn HTML, the document object model, and Javascript (while those do change the change is slow because of the huge installed base.) Unix is going to be relevant for a long time. Relational databases have been around since the beginning of time (Jan 1, 1970) and aren't going away any time soon. If you're good with the fundamentals then you'll be able to adapt to anything else.

</comment><comment><USER4> Odysseus is better than Ajax.

</comment><comment><USER5> Well, if I was to predict the future I would say that we will see new browser architectures that will allow new types of code to be written that are not currently possible. I think web browsers will be more like a VM that can run any kind of code compiled to them instead of being forced to render only HTML and JavaScript. I would take a look at the things about web development that people currently complain about and would venture to say that some smart people will get together and address them.

<comment><USER6> That sounds eerily reminiscent of Java applets.

<comment><USER5> Perhaps, if it wasn't for the screwed up security model that prevented you from doing a lot of the exact same thing that the browser prevented you from doing (for "security" reasons), the fact that most java applets had a UI that looked like shit, and that you had to write it in Java. I'm thinking more like improvements uppon Adobe's AIR platform.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> People here are smart, but smart doesn't mean they can predict the future with any degree of accuracy.

<comment><USER8> Yet..

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> AJAX is not a framework, others build theirs based on it. Anyway, it will be hot for at least 5 years so it doesn't really matter what will replace it.

Until then, the next version of XMLHttpRequest should somehow provide a way for the server to send a request to the client, not needinng the client to make requests all the time...

Or maybe you should be asking what will replace or make better the DOM?

</comment><comment><USER10> Probably something that hasn't been invented yet.

</comment><comment><USER11> If I had to guess what would be big, I would guess that it could be some sort of push technology [read: not http in its current form] Currently it's difficult to create efficient multi-user systems on low bandwidth and high data rates, with RSS clients pinging servers every three minutes to check for new content and ajax calls every three seconds to check page changes and do autosaves, etc, that is a lot of undue stress on a server. Developers will start packing as much data into a single packet as possible, doing micro- optimizations, while somebody else is going to come along and re-desgin the protocol. It could still use XML and Javascript in general, with some other methods to accept data pushed from the application server(s) [bittorrent anyone?], and not the other way around. It could be huge...but alas, doesn't exist yet.

<comment><USER12> Well, this might be true. But, polling every three seconds to see if your page has changed is just bad practice. There's plenty of discussion out there on the web on how to do this better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> If you really want to prepare for the next 10 years, you're wasting your time trying to pick a framework. In essence, you'd be gambling that your pick is the right pick. Frankly, if you really think you can do that; you ought to be buying stocks and not picking languages.

Instead, what you should be doing is learning how to be an excellent technology generalist. Get a solid foundation in the "Basics" of the web. Learn a scripting language that runs on the server, learn javascript, learn CSS & HTML. The most important thing is to figure out how you pick up new languages, because if you work on the web, you're going to be doing a LOT of picking up new languages and technologies.

Not putting your eggs in one basket is a very apt analogy to how to best prepare for a career on the web.

</comment><comment><USER14> If Adobe AIR and Microsoft Silverlight continue to gain traction then they could begin to replace AJAX-style implementations for feature-rich web sites.

The key word here is _could_.

<comment><USER15> Ok. This comment will be a little over the top, but here goes. I'm actually getting sick of how MS releases products. I never used to care enough to think that having everything under the sun covered was a problem. I think in the end, Microsoft's enormous technology and feature base will be what does them in.

To use Silverlight as an example, I think it sucks. It's bloated and I don't get it. I'm tired of playing catch up with MS technologies and all the freaking featues they pack into them. I mean: ASP.NET. ASP.NET AJAX VB.NET 3.0, LINQ, F#, C#, J# (being retired), VBScript, VS 2003, VS 2005, VS Team Foundation, Windows Workflow, Windows Communication Foundation and Windows Presentation Foundation. Seriously?

Windows Workflow in particular is extraordinarily huge. If keeping a program in one's head is important (and it is), then it's not going to happen with Windows Workflow. As I get more comfortable knowing what I want to code and how I want to code it, I'm finding myself just wanting to use stuff that gets it done in the path that is the most natural to me.

Silverlight? No, thanks.

<comment><USER16> From what I have read silverlight is actually the opposite of what you said. Granted I dont know if its all true, only regurgitating what I have researched and read. It's actually not that bloated and is supposed to run javascript about a 1000 time faster since its compiled and not interpreted. It will be interesting to see how it develops and competes with flash.

I agree that keeping up with the many languages is difficult. But it's necessary if you want to be the best and on top of the game. Test drive a lot of different languages and pick the one that meets your needs and feels most comfortable. Sometimes driving more then one language is the best option.

We could argue until we are all blue in the face about what the best language is and what the next "big one" will be. I wouldn't focus as much on the language in 10 years, no one is looking to utilize that today. The future is important (as many get rich making it) but keep in mind a lot of companies that have been ahead of there time got bit in the ass from it.

<comment><USER5> I'm not familiar with silverlight but if it's not cross platform (does it run on my Linux box) it's bound to loose. One of the advantages of building web applications is that people on any platform (pretty much) can run your application. Microsoft has been trying to maintain their Windows desktop monopoly by pushing technologies to write websites that only work with Windows/IE. Once again I don't know if SilverLight suffers from this but knowing Microsoft I would guess it does.

<comment><USER14> Microsoft has been untraditional in their ways with Silverlight by developing and openly promoting cross platform versions of it. I know there is an OSX version and I think a Linux version is in the works.

They must realize that the only way they will gain acceptance amongst hackers is to convince them that Silverlight is not a traditional MSFT product. A few months ago they were kissing ass to Arrington and a few others trying leave positive impressions about the platform and convince everyone of its openness.

But they may already be in trouble because AIR seems to have an edge in early adoption so far. Pownce is written in AIR for example.

It'll be interesting to see how things play out. There is a huge need for certain features of Silverlight and AIR (like local file system access and a network API), but I dont know if those will be compelling enough to drive either of these to "critical mass".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Flex, undoubtedly, for more involved stuff.

</comment><comment><USER18> I would look at <http://www.symfony-project.com/> \- the PHP framework del.icio.us is being rewritten in

and

<http://junctionphp.com/> \- Junction: a PHP 5 object persistence layer

</comment><comment><USER19> I've actually grown weary of the whole browser/css/javscript crap that I have to deal with to make things work... I've been playing with Flex lately. It's a step back in some ways, but it is nice in others. Feels more like thick client development than thin client.

<comment><USER20> How so a step back?

<comment><USER19> Really a lot of my pain is the IDE (eclipe is a step back from something like VS.NET 2k5 with Resharper, come on ctrl-tab doesn't work!), but some of the things feel half baked (if you are doing "code behind" components, you have to name them different things since there's no concept of partial classes or even files with the same name, but different extensions (mostly because the .mxml is compiled to .as3 with the same file name I think)).

You end up having to write a lot of custom controls simply because the ones built in are great for rapid POC type stuff, but aren't necessarily what you want for your "real" app. Then you're just trading one set of community developed stuff for another.

I also looked at OpenLazslo and it's pretty neat, although it's lack of IDE, community support and the fact that it's stuff crashed my system a bunch (nothing like having to install tomcat on a vista box) turned me off (the ol site was down while I was testing it, and has been down numerous times when I've been demoing it, so that's a huge problem).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> SVG with JavaScript on both client and server and code migration.

</comment><comment><USER15> Comet.

</comment><comment><USER22> It doesn't matter. Really. Just do something. Anything. What you learn (about everything) from the doing will be way more important than any (temporary) technical skills you acquire.

<comment><USER19> Yes, instead of prognosticating, do something. The domain and business experience are more important than the hacking stuff you learn (come on, you don't want to be a hacker in 10 years anyway, do you?)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Not-AJAX.

</comment><comment><USER24> XJAX

</comment><comment><USER25> flash</comment>


Why don't iPad-type tablet screen edges have a ratio of 1 : 0.70710678118?? - <AUTHOR>

If they did, then dividing the screen in half would yield 2 rectangles with exactly the same proportions as the larger rectangle (i.e. the entire screen).
It would make it so much easier to put apps side by side, etc.
Any thoughts on this? <comment><USER2> It's a fine idea, and it's also the idea behind ISO/metric paper sizes, as Markus Kuhn explores in this article: [http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso- paper.html](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> It's not ideal to zoom an app and all its GUI components to half its size. It would want to scale UI elements differently. So there's no strong reason to keep the proportions the same.

Also there's all the reasons to choose other screen ratios.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agree that half-sized UI elements would be undesirable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like the idea. Is it posible to make a "prototype"? I.E. modify Android to place two black strips on the borders, so the free screen has this ratio.

<comment><AUTHOR> It surprises me that nobody on the Android side is advertising they've done this.</comment></comment>


Tesla explains Model 3 build in response to Munro's teardown analysis - <AUTHOR> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-explains-model-3-build-munro-teardown-analysis/ <comment><USER2> That's a surprisingly weak and imo damning response.

 _The primary car evaluated by Munro was built in 2017. We have significantly refined our production processes since then, and while there's always room for improvement, our data already shows that Model 3 quality is rapidly getting better._

So can people who bought your alpha/beta iterations trade in for version 1.0? Treating a huge material purchase such as a car like a software product is guaranteed to get you into trouble.

<comment><USER3> They're not talking about the mechanical operation of the car, it's things like gap consistency between doors and the frames.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Tesla's response is to this article[1] which is found in Motor Trend. The article includes summaries of the Munro & Associates report and Tesla's response. Maybe link to that instead?

[1][http://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown- decons...](http://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-teardown- deconstructed-3/)

</comment><comment><USER5> Great video at the bottom of the article: [https://youtu.be/CpCrkO1x-Qo](https://youtu.be/CpCrkO1x-Qo)</comment>


Crypto Market Monitor – Easily Access Bitcoin Market Data - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/CryptoMarketMonitor/BroadcastServer

<comment><USER2> Looks great, keep up the good work! Bitcoin is the future!

</comment><comment><USER3> This is great. Thanks for sharing it.

</comment><comment><USER4> awesome, thanks

</comment><comment><USER5> This is excellent

</comment><comment><USER6> Awesome tool. Thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER7> This looks well done. Well done.</comment>


Freelancer, Meet Your Virtual Company - <AUTHOR> https://rimuut.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Rimuut transforms freelancers into virtual companies in seconds, enabling invoicing and getting paid globally</comment>


Startup school application open for business - <AUTHOR> http://news.ycombinator.com/susapply

<comment><USER2> You guys are pretty fast. I managed to get the newly rewritten application form onto the server this morning, but then I was busy all day talking to startups about their Demo Day presentations. I'm going to try to get the startupschool.org site updated this evening.

<comment><AUTHOR> One of my favorite secret tools: <http://www.changedetection.com/> let's you track pages, and emails you once they change. Not sure what their revenue model is, but it's let me get in first on many occasions. Very handy.

<comment><USER3> Their revenue model could be to put paid users at the front of the queue. Pay more for guaranteed karma!

<comment><AUTHOR> Could be. I think the free service only checks once a day. I would pay for a more frequent check.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm feeling the urge to apply. I'm 49 years old, but a big believer in lifelong education. I also feel the urge to mention hammers in the "what tools do you like" box.

<comment><USER5> OK, a 20-something with less life experience may benefit more from the event than a 40-something, and be more likely to actually do a startup (having generally fewer commitments etc.), but hopefully they won't use age to rule people out if they have a technical background and genuine desire to do a startup even later in life.

<comment><USER4> I have no commitments. Though I might have different risk-tolerance. However I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Just submitted.. hope I get in! This is the first year I'm out of school and can actually fly out for something like this, and now that I'm right in the middle of my startup journey, it would make more sense than ever.

</comment><comment><USER7> Is there any word on roughly how many people apply for each seat?

</comment><comment><USER8> Would it be in bad taste if we aren't accepted to camp out in hopes of no- shows?

<comment><USER9> I think that would be very much in the spirit of entrepreneurship, and what I was planning to do. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> How long will the application be open? (This might sound like a redundant question but I was going to ask some friends to apply that I can't contact immediately)

<comment><USER11> It will be open for at least another month.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Any speakers announced yet?

<comment><USER12> The updated site has a list:

<http://www.startupschool.org/speakers.html>

2009 Speakers (so far) Chris Anderson Editor in Chief, Wired Magazine

Paul Buchheit Founder, FriendFeed; Creator of GMail

Jason Fried Founder, 37signals

Paul Graham Partner, Y Combinator; Founder, Viaweb

Tony Hsieh CEO, Zappos; Founder, LinkExchange

Mitchell Kapor President, Open Source Applications Foundation; Founder, Lotus

Greg McAdoo Partner, Sequoia Capital

Mark Zuckerberg Founder, Facebook

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> When is it?

<comment><USER2> October 24, in Berkeley.

<comment><USER14> Sweet, I have a free plane ticket I've been saving for Startup School (I gave my seat up and got a voucher). Berkeley will be a good venue too.</comment></comment></comment>