Deku: How we built our functional alternative to React - <AUTHOR> https://segment.com/blog/deku-our-functional-alternative-to-react/ <comment><USER2> Great work guys, but correct me if I am wrong but it seems the reasons you decided to build Deku (if I am understanding what you have written) did not seem to be anything other than you were not a fan of how React doesn't take a completely functional approach to building components. Is that an appropriate assumption to make based on what you have written in your article?

I feel a little disappointed to be honest. Because as I was reading, I was expecting to read that you somehow had created a dom-diffing algorithm and matching library that was more performant than React.js, but really it just came down to the fact you didn't like how React.js looks. I was rooting for you from the beginning, expecting to see someone had created something superior to the much hyped React, but it didn't happen.

I don't want to hate on what you've done, looking through the code reveals that you put some considerable effort into Deku, but it makes me wonder if that effort could have been spent on perhaps learning the inner-workings of React.js and adapting it to your needs in its own fork. But having said that, Deku to me only has a few slight differences to React.js, the way components are built in Deku in comparison to React.js doesn't appear to be that dramatically different.

I don't want this comment to come across as yet another cynical HN commenter, but I just cannot see anything comprehensively different to existing solutions. I hate seeing talented development hours going to waste that could have been used to make an already existing project better.

<comment><USER3> > Deku to me only has a few slight differences to React.js

This framework is genuinely different from React in how you use it. I know several JS programmers who prefer functional style, yet choose to incorporate React-style classes because React is really good at what it does. This gives them an alternative.

The components built with Deku will be different in programming style. And that's really, really significant.

<comment><USER4> [https://github.com/Matt-Esch/virtual-dom/](https://github.com/Matt- Esch/virtual-dom/)

<comment><USER5> virtual-dom is excellent.

Also check out mercury:

[https://github.com/Raynos/mercury](https://github.com/Raynos/mercury)

Or better yet, fork mercury and modify the index.js file and package.json. It's a bunch of libraries masquarading as a framework (which is awesome because it means it's modular instead of monolithic)

<comment><USER4> What do you say about [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9529457](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9529457)?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Excellent work. I just went through the source code; lean and neat. I am going to offer this as an alternative to React in something I'm building.

To the new-to-JS programmers out here, I'd recommend waiting until a framework reaches a certain level of maturity. React is not just about the core library itself, it is also about the tooling and ecosystem. For example, you can use React dev tools in Chrome. You are more likely to find how-tos and documentation if you're using React. React Native might help with sharing code if native mobile is in your plans.

Like the documentation says, what this framework really gives you is the ability to skip the OO-style coding that React mandates, and use just functions and modules.

</comment><comment><USER4> > So we looked for smaller alternatives, like virtual-dom and mercury. The > documentation for virtual-dom was slim and we didn't think the API for > mercury was very user friendly.

Really? You found that it was better to write everything from scratch instead of modifying mercury for your use (thus making use of the very good virtual- dom library)? Do you know that the whole mercury source code[1] is only 126 lines of code?

Perhaps you should also know that your library usage examples, in the end, look just like mercury usage examples.

[1]: [https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/index.js](https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/index.js)

<comment><USER6> I think that you are pointing at the wrong file, it looks like the library is actually around 4k lines. The point may still be valid, but it was not a trivial codebase to fork and they seem to have some architectural goals that they didn't think any of the current libraries were well suited to work with.

[https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/dist/mercury.j...](https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/dist/mercury.js)

<comment><USER7> Stumbled upon this [1] in their Readme:

 _mercury is lean, it 's an weekend's read at 2.5kloc. (virtual-dom is 1.1kloc, an evening's read.)_

1: [https://github.com/Raynos/mercury](https://github.com/Raynos/mercury)

<comment><USER8> Having attempted to read virtual-dom several times I highly disagree with it being an "evening's read". It is highly complex, idiosyncratic, has a number of difficult to grok internal conventions, and at least a few large algorithms with next to no documentation. I think a lot of people deservedly like it's API, but it is far from an easy read.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What about Ripple.js [1] [2], which Segment also released ~1 year ago? Is that dead now?

[1] [https://ripplejs.github.io](https://ripplejs.github.io) [2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7609816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7609816)

<comment><USER10> We're still using it on some of our projects, but we've found that no matter how simple we make data-binding it still leads to a mess of event bindings and state management.

The original plan was to make a virtual dom plugin for ripple but it wasn't really possible with the way the worked behind the scenes.

<comment><USER11> Last commit: Jul 30, 2014

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> | It's also a lot of fun

The only cogent reason offered for writing yet another front end framework ...

<comment><USER13> Proposed new shorthand: YAJF

<comment><USER14> YAFS - Yet Another Framework Syndrome.

[https://medium.com/@tastejs/yet-another-framework- syndrome-y...](https://medium.com/@tastejs/yet-another-framework-syndrome- yafs-cf5f694ee070)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> How is this more "functional" than react? What do you mean by "functional"? I write clojurescript for a living and I don't get it.

<comment><USER16> It's an interesting question that I also had. After reading through, apparently "functional" means "no concept of classes or use of this."

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Those were exactlY my grievances with react as well i was practically hoping somebody builds a smaller sane version of react. It could be cool if this would use html / shadowdom components instead of jsx, but i havent checked out the src yet (is there a link?)

</comment><comment><USER18> Cool. Are you going to make a Deku Native for mobile development?

</comment><comment><USER19> This seems very much like mercuryjs except less modular as per a quick glance. What are the differences between mercuryjs and deku besides the need to compile-to-dom in deku?

<comment><USER20> They didn't invent mercury.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I really dislike JSX. Mixing HTML and JS is not elegant at all. Why is it so popular now?

<comment><USER22> I reflexively dislike the notion, but am trying to consider it with an open mind. The notion that a subtree of the DOM and some JavaScript that manipulates it, designed together to create a single functional component, represent a single concern and should be packaged together, is not unreasonable.

I think it is very different than the spaghetti pages found in jsps and php pages of yore, and the emphasis on component is a big part of why.

<comment><USER23> I took the same route - instead of trying to keep HTML in one place, JS in another, CSS in another I made separate files for each component including all the necessary HTML, JS and CSS in one file. It makes more sense because I write them together and debug them together. Also, I don't need to find where are the CSS selectors in a huge monolithic CSS file, or the same about JS functions. I don't let a component become too complex, so the 1 file/component ratio is just right.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> How does it compare to Mithril?

[http://mithril.js.org/](http://mithril.js.org/)

</comment><comment><USER8> Here's a draft d.ts file for anyone who'd consider using this with TypeScript (like I would).

[https://gist.github.com/tel/a4b0980db350096afd53](https://gist.github.com/tel/a4b0980db350096afd53)

</comment><comment><USER25> What language are those examples in?

        export let Button = {
          render({props, state}) {
            return <button>{props.text}</button>
          }
        }

<comment><USER26> ES6

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You should use monospace fonts in your code samples.

<comment><USER27> This was bugging me too, they are trying to but it's probably only working on OSX machines since they're using {font-family:'menlo'} without a fallback, so if the font is not available the code is rendered using Times New Roman instead, at least on Chrome.

<comment><USER28> That is really lazy: the least that could've been done is {font-family: menlo, monospace}!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Meh, I'd rather work with objects that enforce immutability and model monadic sequencing than this sea of continuation passing.

<comment><USER30> I think there are times for both but I agree with you. I'm pretty much only interested in Multi paradigm languages at this point and after much consternation I'm pretty stoked about the es6 moves and hope JS continues to support all the ways to program things.

Immutability and lazy eval are both really well implemented with OOP interfaces even though I consider both functional concepts.

I read this recently: semantics != syntax.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I wonder if they looked at riotjs[1] as an alternative. Deku is at ~10k, riotjs is at ~4k. They both seem to have similar goals: no legacy support, decent api, decent performance.

[1] [https://github.com/muut/riotjs](https://github.com/muut/riotjs)

<comment><USER31> Hm, I suppose if they wanted to avoid _this_ (which makes sense), riotjs might not be a good fit. Eg:

[https://github.com/muut/riotjs/blob/master/demo/todo.js](https://github.com/muut/riotjs/blob/master/demo/todo.js)

vs

[https://github.com/segmentio/deku/blob/master/examples/todo/...](https://github.com/segmentio/deku/blob/master/examples/todo/todo.js)

Does look like riotjs might be re-factored in some interesting ways, if they move it to ES6 though.

<comment><USER32> That's the compiled version - this is the source for the Riot example: [https://github.com/muut/riotjs/blob/master/demo/todo.tag](https://github.com/muut/riotjs/blob/master/demo/todo.tag)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm curious about the decision to elide the synthetic event system. Does Segment only target modern browsers? What is the compatibility delta on including or eliding synthetic events?

</comment><comment><USER33> React is a one trick pony. If the DOM is not the bottleneck for your application, React has zero advantages over any bread and butter MVC framework.

</comment><comment><USER34> Congratulations! I think it's good to have competing options.</comment>


Tesla workers test positive for Covid-19 after Musk forced factory reopening - <AUTHOR> https://mashable.com/article/tesla-fremont-factory-coronavirus/ <comment><USER2> This reports that the washington post reports something, please submit the original source in such cases. Also a dupe:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23469165](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23469165)</comment>


Earth's Core & Magnetic Field Changing Fast, Study Says - <AUTHOR> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/76158139.html

<comment><USER2> Run for it! We're all going to die!</comment>


Clef two-factor authentication service shutting down - <AUTHOR> https://blog.getclef.com/discontinuing-support-for-clef-6c89febef5f3#.z2ng7yh3m <comment><USER2> Damn, I liked clef. Used it on a few sites and it was pretty seamless.</comment>


Dropbox and Deutsche Telekom partner in Europe - <AUTHOR> https://blog.dropbox.com/2014/07/dropbox-and-deutsche-telekom-partner-in-europe/ <comment><USER5> Is it just me or is this a 180 degree turn around for Deutsche Telekom? After the NSA scandal they planned to create an "All-German Internet" [0] (a strange plan to begin with) but now they seem to be saying: we don't care, let us let our users store their data in "in data centers across the United States" [1]. As if nothing ever happened.

[0] [http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/deutsche- telekom...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/deutsche-telekom- pushes-all-german-internet-safe-from-spying-a-933013.html) [1] [https://www.dropbox.com/help/7/en](https://www.dropbox.com/help/7/en)

<comment><USER6> Oh come on, "email made in Germany" was a marketing stunt all along - a simple way to benefit from the general rage related to the NSA scandal. It didn't make any sense in the first place and I'm sure Telekom is very well aware of this.

<comment><USER7> That's right since the "email made in Germany" and "full encryption" only works between the 3/4 major email providers in Germany.

DT like any other company wants to sell and is pure marketing strategy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> UVB-76 This is the new Dropbox, with Condoleezza Rice et al on the board.

How do you grow your installed base? Give a big corporation a load of money to install it on their customers' devices, whether they like it or not.

<comment><USER8> For now, it looks like there's a negative association with Dropbox and Condoleezza Rice.

When only positive association can be seen on HN, can we then assume that the DoD's "social media" tools to control conversation has worked?

(remember folks, this is no longer conspiracy territory).

<comment><USER9> Look at the jtrig section for shaping/honeypots,

[https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/07/14/jtrig...](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/07/14/jtrig- tools-techniques/)

... there's no evidence it is related, but when you think about that and social media to promote things ... does that mean imgur and dropbox were planned for honeypots and IPOs? At this point it seems it's best just to assume everything is compromised and backdoored, oof.

<comment><USER8> Oh. That's the first time I've seen that. Thanks.

Here's some pure speculation:

DEADPOOL - is.gd

MOLTEN-MAGMA - <USER2>

LONGSHOT - <USER3>

PIXTRIX - <USER4>

It's interesting to note that the CEO of is.gd (Nick Craig-Wood) and CloudFlare's JGC both blogged about solving GCHQ's challenge... maybe they both got approached?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Really, Dropbox? DT? The most shitty telecom provider you could find? The pest of German internet access? The plague of providers? ... bah. At least it is only a pre-install program and not something like "we use Telekom for all our services in Europe". I hope it stays that way.

<comment><USER11> More realistically, DT is (perceived as) a premium provider and his will automatically expand Dropbox's market and can be kind of a strategic partner (what Dropbox supposedly needs since the competition from big players is heating up). Speculation: Deutsche Telecom's equivalent product was most likely inferior and hasn't caught on well enough, so that's a win for them as well.

The general (perceived) shittyness of all providers in general is just a function of the business model: huge number of customers pay for mostly fixed costs.

<comment><USER10> > More realistically, DT is (perceived as) a premium provider

Okay, maybe my views about DT are really outdated, but ... premium provider? Who thinks about DT as a premium provider? The only thing I think about when I hear Telekom is "incumbent who does everything to stifle competition" and so do most people I know.

<comment><USER12> Then you don't want to know about Telefonica in Spain or BT in the UK. It's the same thing with every ex-monopoly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> So actually Dropbox becomes just another preinstalled app and Telecom won't have to invest into any kind of own cloud infrastructure.

</comment><comment><USER14> After Uber did the same thing a month ago with AT&T ([http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/05/28/uber-partners- att-p...](http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/05/28/uber-partners-att-pre- install-app-new-android-phones/)), this seems like the marketing strategy that becomes unlocked after hitting a $10B market cap.

</comment><comment><USER15> The pre-installed apps you can't remove is a pest. Samsung is quite good at it too - you can't remove the Dropbox app at all without rooting your phone.

</comment><comment><USER8> I guess all of that Internet rage at Dropbox getting Condoleezza Rice has faded. What's on TV?

</comment><comment><USER16> and there i was hoping they were removing dropbox from their bandwidth limitations.

</comment><comment><USER17> As a consumer, I find these bundled apps a pain. But a brilliant business move by dropbox to become ubiqutous as the default file sharing app. If they rebrand, you won't even know it's dropbox under the hood.

</comment><comment><USER18> Dropbox, a great company like that don't need this kind of strategy.

</comment><comment><USER19> Meh, I would have expected contracts of the DT bundled with Dropbox

</comment><comment><USER20> Again: [http://www.drop-dropbox.com/](http://www.drop-dropbox.com/)

I will not stop posting this on every Dropbox story on here. I find it reprehensible. Information from the linked site above on why you should not use this company's software and move to an alternative such as SpiderOak:

Why Condoleezza Rice should not hold power at Dropbox

* She helped start the Iraq War

"The Iraq War directly caused over 120,000 civilians to die. The total body count, including soldiers, is nearly 188,000. Nearly 5,000 US and coalition forces were killed. Over 30,000 were seriously wounded."

* She was involved in the creation of the Bush administration's torture program

"Rice verbally agreed to allow torture methods to be used on captured suspects, and then lied about the extent to which she was involved."

* Rice not only supports warrantless wiretaps, she authorized several

"Rice not only spoke in favor of the Bush administration's warrantless wiretap program and expansive domestic surveillance program, she authorized the warrantless wiretap of UN Security Council members."

Is this really a company you want to trust your data with, let alone your money given the blood on Rice's hands?

 __

I feel like a broken record posting this each time a story comes up on HN but I feel it needs to be said so people can be educated about this company.

<comment><USER21> Dropbox makes it easy for me to sync and share files (specifically funny meme images), I haven't found anything else that works the same way but without the, ah, interesting government aid.

I've never heard of Spideroak, but it looks like it could be solid competition for what I want in specific. But now can it be trusted...

<comment><USER22> the point of spideroak is that you (in theory) shouldn't need to trust "it", because encryption.

depending on your use case this may or may not be the case anymore though, i haven't followed the recent development of their android app or their "hive" feature.</comment></comment></comment>


Honest Slogans - What People Really Think - <AUTHOR> http://honestslogans.com/

<comment><USER2> I don't think this belongs here. It's funny, but it's just a tumblr account. It feels like a buzzfeed article without the smatterings of text.

</comment><comment><USER3> They forgot:

The Newlywed Game: Just warming up for The Jerry Springer Show.</comment>


Riot Medicine - <AUTHOR> https://riotmedicine.net/ <comment><USER2> Having lived in HK throughout what's now been a full year of protests, I've been amazed at the resourcefulness of the protest movement there. They are leader-less and completely organic, but have self-organized all kinds of system to deal with all the challenges thrown at them.

The police is constantly shooting tear gas, but they've found quick ways of extinguishing it with traffic cones and water. I've now seen videos of them using leafblowers to blow the gas away before extinguishing it.

To prevent police vehicle movement, they've come up with a system of digging up brings and putting them in a three-brick formation onto the roads in such a way to prevent cards from moving through (bricks would get into the wheels assembly).

They have networks of people with supply station throughout the protests, distributing water, first aid, umbrellas, masks, etc.

I've seen them build entire roadblocks with actual brick and mortar during the week of the university siege.

It's truly incredibly what a motivated and organized group of people even when lacking formal leadership. In fact, it makes them far more resilient. Without leadership. you can't "cut off the head" of the movement, so to speak.

<comment><USER3> Do you foresee an escalation in tactics on both sides?

<comment><USER2> Who knows, the situation is highly volatile and picking back up after a Wuhan- virus-induced lull. The CCP keeps escalating and people aren't taking it kindly. I don't see any de-escalation in the near future.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The target audience is different, but this made me think of the book:

 _Where There Is No Doctor: A Village Health Care Handbook_

It was discussed a little here over year ago at:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19431005](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19431005)

It can be purchased in book form, or the individual chapters can be downloaded as PDFs at:

[https://hesperian.org/books-and-resources/](https://hesperian.org/books-and- resources/)

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't want to downplay the importance of the protests, but as Max Keiser pointed out in his show, if people burn the bank buildings, the central banks will just print more dollars to rebuild them. Moving money out from the banking system to Bitcoin is a much more effective, peaceful protest for those of us who can still afford to do that.

<comment><USER6> Bitcoin won't help the economy, especially due to the gini coefficient of Bitcoin's algorithm simply creating another crypto-oligarchy.

It's a simple mathematical model, existing capital has full access to co-opt any crypto software relying on capital based supply generation of the cryptocoins. Bitcoin and other Proof-of-Work systems which run warehouses full of hardware generating random numbers is no different than the existing system, unless you're trying to extract wealth from uninformed targets who are unaware of how the algorithm was designed.</comment></comment>


John Wiegley is the new Emacs maintainer, hints at Code of Conduct - <AUTHOR> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-11/msg00117.html <comment><USER2> RMS's post confirming it: [ [http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/193245](http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/193245) ]</comment>


Crowd Sourced Funding, Pitching, and Entrepreneurs  - <AUTHOR> http://www.victusspiritus.com/2009/08/06/crowd-sourced-funding-pitching-and-entrepreneurs/ <comment><USER2> Nice idea/concept...the crowd sourced funding sounds a bit like start-up funds created around particular ideas...probably a headache to organize though...

<comment><USER3> Thanks envitar, I had to update it some (I should read my own older blog posts more often). My friend and likely future business partner Vladimir pointed out a vital missing component, a Venture Fund Manager. Updating the post now.

<comment><USER2> Here is more on the subject:

<http://crowdfunding.trampolinesystems.com/crowdfunding/></comment></comment></comment>


Killer Quotes from Mark Zuckerberg: "A trusted referral is the Holy Grail of advertising" - <AUTHOR> http://www.rephoria.com/blog/2007/11/06/killer-quotes-from-mark-zuckerberg-a-trusted-referral-is-the-holy-grail-of-advertising/

<comment><USER2> Facebook: Thanks for the friends, here come the sales.

It's the death knell of Facebook. They took an addictive college app and made it into a spawn of the devil and Madison Avenue.

So tell me, how many times do you need to be pitched from the guy you met at the seminar last year to completely ditch Facebook and move on? I'm thinking "one" is the answer to that question.

</comment><comment><USER3> there's awesome! thanks for letting me trusted referrals are great! i can't wait until my friends pitch me things to buy on a daily basis! i so wish i can be like all of my conformist friends and i think consumerism is the best way to get there! hooray!</comment>


One news feed site to rule them all - <AUTHOR> https://skimfeed.com/ <comment><USER2> That's a lot of feeds. good job on that.</comment>


Stealing a HDD with illegal downloads is doubly illegal? - <AUTHOR>

I was coding at the coffee shop and wondered whether or not a passerby, opportunistically stealing my computer, would be liable for any illegal downloads on my computer, assuming that the police caught them? <comment><USER2> No, because the thief wouldn't have anything to do with your crime. This would be important for that person's defense.</comment>


Show HN: Scanning+Archiving Program For Going Paperless/Saving Notes (Linux) - <AUTHOR> http://code.google.com/p/page-archive/

<comment><USER2> Great :) This is exactly the kind of tool I've been looking for for a while.

</comment><comment><USER3> Linux only?

<comment><AUTHOR> I haven't tested it on Windows yet. The GUI is done with GTKBuilder, it relies on an image viewer and a scanning program native to Linux, but those commands can be changed. Not sure how much of this would work.</comment></comment>


Why I Left My Corporate Salary for Cannabis Entrepreneurship - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@blackrockog/why-i-left-my-six-figure-salary-to-pursue-a-career-in-cannabis-8b3aa0f38dc0#.p82rdqv2t <comment><USER2> Unfortunately, the "why" here comes down to "I smoke weed" and "I knew I wanted to be a part of [the industry]". Minus a few stats on demographics, the rest is standard platitudes about being bored in a corporate job and the highs/lows of entrepreneurship. ("I wanted to venture out on my own, but didn't know how!")

This is still an enthusiast-driven market, as illustrated by the photo in the article of the co-founders lighting up in the office. C'mon.

The industry needs to--already has, and will continue to--evolve away from pure enthusiasts and towards businesspeople who see the _massive_ business opportunity. The legal market is estimated to top $7B in 2016, and $40B in the next 5-10 years. No incumbents, little regulation: this is the wild west. We're talking the very real possibility of 100%+ annual market growth, which is insane.

<comment><USER3> The problem is the laws haven't changed at the federal level. It's still illegal, and you can still go to jail if the feds wan to put you there. As long as that's true there's going to be a wild west element, because everything you've built can be taken away literally on the whim of a federal prosecutor.

<comment><USER2> That's not a problem, that's _risk_. "Wild west" means high risk and high reward. Fortunes will be won and lost. That kind of thing. There's a _reason_ traditional businesses haven't entered: the beta is way too high.

My lamentation here is that the author isn't discussing his transition in terms of an actual business case (e.g., opportunity and risk), instead relying on merely personal interest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Great read, even though it's mostly a plug for the product.

I actually love the case design and idea. Bookmarked and considering pulling the trigger soon. That grinder card is awesome.

I didn't delve to far into the site other than the product page and checking out kits, how does it actually neutralize the smell? Just by materials and a zipper?

Thanks and good luck on your entrepreneurship!</comment>


John Peel Sessions - <AUTHOR> https://davestrickson.blogspot.com/2020/05/john-peel-sessions.html <comment><USER2> For those who don't know of him, John Peel was a presenter/DJ on BBC Radio 1 from the 60s until his death in the mid 00s.

For as long as I've been aware of it, Radio 1 has followed a format of playing mainstream pop music during the day, with more specialised and esoteric programming in the evening. When I was a teenager, Peel's show was on at 10pm on weeknights, and his main focus was on championing new and undiscovered bands, across many genres. The Peel sessions were part of this show, where a band would come in to record a live performance of a few songs.

I imagine a lot of bands can credit their success to John Peel playing their records and inviting them to record a session.

<comment><USER3> Don't know if they would actually qualify as bootlegs, but some of the most coveted tapes being traded in my highschool days were Peel session recordings. This was in the heart of BFE Texas in the 90s. I still don't know where these tapes came from, but these were my saving as everything else was country <shuddersDownSpine>

<comment><USER4> He had worked in Texas so it seems appropriate that he should have had fans there.

<comment><USER5> He was also present when the authorities paraded Lee Harvey Oswald in front of the press (and Jack Ruby): [https://peel.fandom.com/wiki/John_F._Kennedy](https://peel.fandom.com/wiki/John_F._Kennedy)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Slightly off-topic: I had no idea opening a youtube link with /embed in the right part the URL would make the video go to full screen in the browser window, and thus get rid of the UI noise that is youtube in 2020. I should make this happen for all youtube.com links I open, it's quite a pleasant experience.

<comment><USER7> I've also found it useful when I want to create a re-sizeable video window to suit whatever else I'm doing, as it conforms to the browser size (I was doing this when I was watching FastAI lectures). As you say, much more pleasant!

<comment><USER6> Yes! It also solves one of my pet peeves, really a first world problem. Watching 16:9, 1080p videos full-screen on my 32:9 screen lags my PC hard, on basically every video streaming site. The big black bars on either side of the video are apparently very expensive to render (firefox, ubuntu 20.04, ymmv). Theater mode exists on a few of these websites, but I would really like a more general solution. For now, with the help of @boriselec's plug-in, I am satisfied with the /embed trick for youtube.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Curious thing about JP I noticed was how he spoke. Everything he said was spoken a little slowly with a kind of constant measuring of quality with the result that whatever he spoke was worth listening to.

He didn't waste words, he didn't (that I recall) ever 'chatter on'. Every word seemed to count.

Maybe my memory deceives me but I do remember this, and it's something I try to emulate.

Anyway, I'll check all this out. I did love the variety of stuff he played. Thanks, article poster.

</comment><comment><USER9> My favorite of these was the Velocity Girl session.[0]

Recommended for fans of shoegaze, dreampop, etc.

Edit: Just noticed that list doesn't include the VG session. You can listen to it on YouTube:

[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3hE5alv55E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3hE5alv55E)

<comment><USER10> Also My Bloody Valentine from 1988:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtsOqxnZPto](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtsOqxnZPto)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> That's great. Most people probably haven't spotted it (took me a few years to clock the connection) but Tom Ravenscroft (on radio 6) is his son. As you'd expect, he has a fairly encyclopaedic knowledge of music and you'll always pick up good stuff on his shows.

</comment><comment><USER12> Apart from the wonderful world of music he curated, he was a warm, funny man, and I miss him.

Quotes remembered by listeners:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20070712092327/http://www.ilxor....](https://web.archive.org/web/20070712092327/http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=34945)

<comment><USER13> I listened to him my whole time as a teenager.

When he died, I remember hearing on the day and I was not that effected by it. When I got home, I think maybe seeing the radio or something, it made it very real. I sat on the bed and wept in a way most unlike me (relatives and close friends excepted). I've certainly never even come close to this kind of emotion for any "famous" person before or since. He was a wonderful DJ who introduced so many kinds of music. A real loss for the UK.

And yet clearly here his work lives on, which is great to see.

<comment><USER14> Along With Elvis and Amy I can remember where I was when I heard that Peely had died

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Suggesting some of the not-so-popular bands that were invited to John Peel's sessions.

If you're into psychedelic, space, stoner rock, shoegaze, noise rock etc, check out Bardo Pond, Bailter Space, Band of Susans, Lush, Loop, Sonic Youth, Spiritualized, Stereolab, The Brian Jonestown Massacre, The Jesus and Mary Chain, The Jesus Lizard, My Bloody Valentine (missing from the list)

Some other interesting bands: Broadcast, Galaxie 500, The Chills.

And of course there were a ton of popular bands worth checking out.

<comment><USER16> A good proportion of the famous bands performed sessions before they were famous. Some of them became famous in large part because of John Peel.

<comment><USER15> You're right. For example Nirvana became mainstream in 1991 with Smells like Teen Spirit. The happened to do a session in 1990. Pretty sure it contributed to their eventual success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The BBC should 'reissue' these paying the rights holders accordingly. Right now musicians are not getting revenue from PRS as no pubs/shops are playing music right now.

Some 'Peel Sessions' got released on 'Strange Fruit' including the seminal 'the orb' epic track "A Huge Ever Growing Pulsating Brain That Rules From The Centre Of The Ultraworld (Loving You)" that was put together by Jimi Cauty, who subsequently left 'the orb' to be one half of The KLF. Hence the Peel session of The Orb and the original pressing of the aforementioned track were the only truly awesome stuff they released.

Incidentally this excellent blogpost of Peel Sessions does not include this particular 1989 classic.

Note that first time round you would wait until Thursday 11 p.m. to tune in to John Peel on FM radio and record the good stuff with a spare cassette. You might record over that cassette a week or two later. Everything could be ordered through an independent record shop if you wanted it for real, expect one of a thousand pressings though.

You would need to remember names of artists and their tracks from the radio, no rewind unless you had that tape running. Discographies didn't exist like now so you never knew if an alias of an artist was the artist you knew already or a new one.

I respect people that piece all of this together today, however, somewhere in the BBC they have this archived and they could sort out the licensing problems the way it works on streaming platforms.

Licensing problems are mostly due to defunct labels and who gets the royalties. For instance, if in 1988 'A Guy Called Gerald' was part of '808 State' on the 'Creed' label, then, in the Peel session, if it get replayed, where does the money go? The other members of the group went to be signed by ZTT leaving A Guy Called Gerald to do his own stuff in a different direction. The Peel session fell in-between albums with tracks from the old and the new. Sorting out the monies is tricky for the BBC to do but YouTube manage monetisation easy enough.

<comment><USER18> regarding your last paragraph, I believe it's not up to the BBC to get performing rights to each artist, they would pay a fixed fee to PRS and others. Registered or recorded airplay and performance gets attributed to artists and they (or the holders of their publishing) get their performance royalties. Whatever is left over is then divided out amongst the lower ranking artists in the form of a flat fee. If you're an artist you can use an agent like PPL [1] to collect on your behalf. The above mess is why if your friends are recording a song , you should get performance credits for playing the triangle; could be worth £50 a year...

[https://www.ppluk.com/](https://www.ppluk.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Many of his complete shows can be downloaded as mp3's, see the following for instructions: [https://peel.fandom.com/wiki/Mooo_Server](https://peel.fandom.com/wiki/Mooo_Server).

Also there is an online radio station inspired by Peel: [http://dandelionradio.com/](http://dandelionradio.com/)

<comment><USER20> You could argue BBC Radio 6 music was inspired by him too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is awesome! My fiancee was in the band Comatose that did a Peel Session recording in 1998. I've never heard because we didn't start dating until years later. This is the session. [https://www.youtube.com/embed/KtyoQC7zyvU](https://www.youtube.com/embed/KtyoQC7zyvU)

</comment><comment><USER22> In New Zealand as a young teen you had to wait until midnight before pop radio was turned over to one of Peel-inspired DJs until five in the morning, playing all this plus Aussie and Kiwi music. Sometimes it was easier to leave a C-90 taping and see what you got the next day. The Fall, The Birthday Party, Hunters & Collectors, Cabaret Voltaire

<comment><USER23> Literally just signed up to comment this but The Birthday Party's various peel sets are absolutely incredible

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I had no idea Peel had started these back in 1968. For example I didn't think he'd have had Jethro Tull on, I assumed he came after that. Clearly I need to read up.

I listened to these as a teenager in the 1990s. Very nostalgic to hear this now. Also sad to think of the defenestration of radio 1, however at least radio 6 got some of their remit.

Obviously there are loads to listen to, but just to highlight one I'm enjoying right now that wasn't what I expected

Kenickie [https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qv987NMRCoY?autoplay=1](https://www.youtube.com/embed/Qv987NMRCoY?autoplay=1)

Much more melancholy than Hey Punka, which is really cool. I hope that these remain on youtube as all these are links to youtube, which seems a bit brittle.

</comment><comment><USER24> My appealing memory of Peel is hearing him play the same song twice in one show, he liked it so much.

Edit... just found out that the song in question (Teenage Kicks by the Undertones) was played at his funeral.

<comment><USER25> That song is like having youth poured into your ears.

<comment><USER24> Only for people 'of a certain genderation' :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> There is a German guy named Klaus Fiehe who has apparently been called "the German John Peel". He played sax for Geier Sturzflug back in the day, is now with the Bollock Brothers and has been hosting somewhat off-mainstream radio shows for decades now. I love him very much and there is a very humble archive at [https://fiehe.info](https://fiehe.info). It only goes back to 2012, unfortunately… Nothing of the scale TFA boasts.

</comment><comment><USER27> Thanks for sharing this list! John Peel was an international treasure. I'm American and I'm still quite familiar with him.

My biggest gratitude to him is for doing everything in his power to bring my favorite band (and also, his favorite band), The Fall, to a greater public recognition. Without him, who knows if they would have ever got a national TV spot - and for my money it still goes down as one of their best live outings. The video of their national performance on The Tube (1983) is below. As John Peel once said of the Fall: "They are always different; they are always the same". Rest in Peace to both John Peel and Mark E. Smith - both have added an non-quantifiable value to my life.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE-6xoh1khg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE-6xoh1khg)

</comment><comment><USER10> Awesome list! I'm sure there are many more out there somewhere, hopefully this can grow as more recordings surface?

Brings me back the glory days of labels like Too Pure and Strange Fruit :)

<comment><USER28> Strange Fruit put out so much quality music

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I had heard of Napalm Death, but couldn't find anything until I happened across the Peel Sessions at Tower Records. Loved it. Nobody else did.

<comment><USER30> I saw them live in '89 headlining an insanely cheap 5 band lineup. Awesome, jaw dropping stuff. I heard that more recently they had a gig booked at London's Victoria and Albert Museum where someone had designed them a sound system that was supposed to disintegrate over the course of the gig. Unfortunately the gig got cancelled due to fears over the structural integrity of the building.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Peel Sessions were the best way for me to discover new music when I was younger. Still have Inspiral Carpets and Buzzcocks originals on vinyl.

</comment><comment><USER31> Wow what a crazy goldmine. E.g. `Pulp - Peel Session 1981` that is some pretty old Pulp.

<comment><USER13> the last one on that was really great. interesting that even then, the band had that great style.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Autechre isn't on here - strange. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Session_(Autechre_EP)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Session_\(Autechre_EP\))

<comment><USER33> it's just a list of session recordings he's found. The full Peel Sessions list is here: [http://www.thepeelsessions.co.uk/bands.html](http://www.thepeelsessions.co.uk/bands.html)

(link from another comment)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> It seems to be missing Dead Can Dance recorded June 1984

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5DxkeGJaFY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5DxkeGJaFY)

</comment><comment><USER30> I see the listing has a unicode problem EinstÃrzende Neubauten

</comment><comment><USER35> Thank you this is why I love hacker news I can find good music

</comment><comment><USER36> Epic. Have been searching for this master list for awhile ;)

<comment><USER37> It's not a complete list. For example, The Rock of Travolta aren't on it, despite having done a Peel session:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QsfPJKbAtc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QsfPJKbAtc)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> The Hot Snakes session is visceral and amazing. Peel had a way of bringing out the raw essence of whatever band paid him a visit. Great stuff.

</comment><comment><USER39> Holy crap, what a goldmine, thanks for posting that!

</comment><comment><USER40> It seems to be missing items, like others have noted. The best for me was the New Fast Automatic Daffodils Peel sessions. Great session.

</comment><comment><USER41> He had his scandals but this guy was a legend. A real defining influence on my teenage years.

</comment><comment><USER42> It's remarkable how much New Order in 1981 still sounds like Joy Division.

</comment><comment><USER43> Well that's cool, I didn't know New Order did a 3rd session in 1998!

</comment><comment><USER44> "John Peel is not enough"

</comment><comment><USER45> @ sander jordens

</comment><comment><USER46> And... they're gone. Starting to be DCMA'd one by one.

<comment><USER47> Seriously. Imagine if these had been curated and hosted on a public network, instead of a proprietary platform where exposure means death. lynx -dump | youtube-dl it is.

<comment><USER48> the embed links don't seem to work with youtube-dl very well, I wrote a python script to convert them (in the sibling comment to this)

<comment><USER47> What seems broken? The latest version of youtube-dl doesn't seem to be having trouble with the embed links. Is this something I'm going to regret later?

<comment><USER48> When I ran it, it wasn't actually downloading anything. I'm honestly not quite sure why. Maybe there's a difference in versions.

Edit: ah I think it was because of some whitespace getting inserted, so actually not a problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> wow</comment>


Add two-factor authentication to your ssh in 30 seconds - <AUTHOR> http://blog.authy.com/add-two-factor-authentication-to-your-ssh-in-30-seconds/ <comment><USER2> Using a third-party service like authy.com has its advantages, but if you prefer, you can get two-factor authentication in the latest Ubuntu without involving a third party by installing _libpam-google-authenticator_ from Ubuntu's "universe" repository.

Here's how you do it: first, _sudo apt-get install libpam-google- authenticator_ ; second, run _google-authenticator_ as the user you will access remotely and follow the instructions; then, edit _/etc/pam.d/sshd,_ and add "auth required pam_google_authenticator.so" in a new line; edit _/etc/ssh/sshd_config_ and add (or change) the ChallengeResponseAuthentication line so it reads "ChallengeResponseAuthentication yes"; and finally, _sudo service ssh restart_ to restart the ssh server.

More info is available from the packager of libpam-google-authenticator[1], and from the Google Authenticator PAM module's README.[2]

\--

[1] [http://blog.theroux.ca/security/ubuntu-2-step- authentication...](http://blog.theroux.ca/security/ubuntu-2-step- authentication-with-google-authenticator/)

[2] [http://code.google.com/p/google- authenticator/source/browse/...](http://code.google.com/p/google- authenticator/source/browse/libpam/README)

\--

Edits: Corrected typos; added more context.

<comment><AUTHOR> The biggest problems is you can't use ssh_keys with this setup. Its too restrictive, and certificates are a must for ssh.

Also what happens if you loose your cellphone? We thought about this and for us the possibility of loosing access to the server fully was too much.

<comment><USER3> You could probably do a hack to let the user login with ssh key and then immediately force the second factor auth to be run, booting the user out if they didn't pass it. Not the best way, but one option.

I also believe I once ran across a patch someone had done to the login code to allow both to be required, I can't find the link right off though as I'm at work currently. If I find it, I'll add it here

<comment><USER4> A ForceCommand example (for Yubikey) is documented here: [http://www.tuxz.net/blog/archives/2010/03/17/how_to_quickly_...](http://www.tuxz.net/blog/archives/2010/03/17/how_to_quickly_setup_two- factor_ssh_authentication/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Pretty cool. Google authenticator is another alternative that be used via a pam module, with the additional benefit that it doesn't need to connect to something else for verification.

<https://code.google.com/p/google-authenticator/>

<comment><USER6> the problem is that google authenticator stores the seed in the phone(and the server) so if you lose it basically you lose the server too, right?

<comment><USER7> If you mean lose access to the server, then the google-authenticator sets you up with a few emergency one-time codes you could write down on a note and keep safe, in case your phone is lost.

<comment><USER8> I don't think google-authenticator does that, I think Gmail does that.

<comment><USER7> There's a bunch of references to scratch codes in the pam google-authenticator module, but I haven't actually tried to run the code.

[http://code.google.com/p/google- authenticator/source/browse/...](http://code.google.com/p/google- authenticator/source/browse/libpam/google-authenticator.c#621)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> You should really package this up, and provide a signed repo instead of relying on the busted SSL infrastructure and GitHub to provide security to your users.

While this one isn't quite as offensive as some, all these curl/sudo/bash combos really make me sad, particularly when used to "increase" security.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are right. Best for your infrastructure is to fork it and modify it. We for example have a different version we use for chef and that already include everyone's keys.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> SMS is not secure. It can be faked. It goes through multiple networks. It's not encrypted. And if you use a GSM phone, this could be owned two years ago at DEF CON: <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2367247,00.asp> Not to mention the provider-specific attacks, cloning, etc.

If you start pushing insecure technologies like this, people will just get really comfortable with them and eventually get taken advantage of.

<comment><USER11> Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

<comment><USER10> Can I quote you on that when the first "flaw in SMS used to circumvent two factor authentication" article comes out?

A secured data connection is much better than SMS and easy to implement. But this is still a 'something you send' factor, which can be intercepted. A physical token or 'something you have' is more secure, and can also be easily implemented with a YubiKey, a paypal/ebay authentication card, etc.

If you think your data is so valuable someone might install a keylogger to get it, you might as well secure it as well as you reasonably can.

<comment><USER11> In order for a flaw in SMS to break someone in, the attacker would need to break both SMS and the traditional authentication channel.

Yes, SMS can be broken. I'm sure Google Authenticator is vulnerable to certain attacks, too. Using them is better than throwing your hands up in the air and saying "it's not perfect, we'd better not implement it because then people will act as if they have perfect security!" Because people are already acting like they have perfect security.

<comment><USER10> You know this is the same reason people keep using telnet to manage their routers. "To attack the protocol would be like totally hard, and upgrading the routers to use ssh would be a pain in the ass. Telnet isn't perfect but it's better than nothing!"

Yeah, SMS isn't perfect, and yeah, it's better than nothing. But you know what else is better than nothing? Properly implemented TLS from an app or website on the phone. Of course that has holes too, but it's encrypted and (hopefully) authenticated unlike SMS. And it's available in every phone that can do SMS (unless you don't pay for data).

You can do whatever you want. But if you give people a crappy option and a good option, and the crappy option is slightly easier, they'll use the crappy option. But if they want the extra security they'll use the extra click it takes to make the good option work. Most people will just reason that nobody will ever use a keylogger on them and keep using keys with passwords.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> In the video I see a private key coming from a Dropbox folder :(

Missing. The. Point.

<comment><USER13> I didn't watch the video, but if the key is encrypted (password protected) like it should be, what's the problem?

<comment><USER14> In the comments the author states that his private key is inside a TrueCrypt- folder, and that folder is on Dropbox.

I know that's reasonably secure but it _feels_ terrible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> One more option is Barada PAM module+Android app. <http://barada.sourceforge.net/> It is basically a HOTP implementation, where the token is protected by PIN (with PIN being a missing part of the shared secret stored on the token) and the original password is reserved only to be used on trusted machines (or) in case of losing token.

</comment><comment><USER16> Does this mean that you ping them whenever you ssh? Does this mean that if their service is down you won't be able to ssh anymore?

<comment><USER17> From [https://github.com/authy/authy-ssh/blob/master/authy- ssh#L11...](https://github.com/authy/authy-ssh/blob/master/authy-ssh#L112):

        Default action when api.authy.com cannot be contacted:

          1. Disable two factor authentication until api.authy.com is back
          2. Don't allow logins until api.authy.com is back

<comment><USER18> What?! This is an online method? Why don't people just use Google Authenticator? It's totally offline, on both ends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If you are looking for a clean reliable two-factor auth system, I highly recommend Duo: <http://www.duosecurity.com/>

I've been using them across a half dozen personal machines for quite a while now, looking to roll it out at work as well.

<comment><USER20> Right, Duo is great. Love the fact you can install it over the whole enterprise including applications, blogs (Wordpress), vpns, and ssh.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Has anyone added this to other than a server? Seems like this could be added to a notebook or desktop running OS X. (And for that, I would actually prefer Google Authenticator.)

Also, it occurs to me: With TFA, it finally makes sense to periodically change passwords.

</comment><comment><USER22> Seriously? Another (virtual) token-based 2FA solution? What is your competitive advantage against Duo, Authentify, Entrust, and the thousand other SMS or virtual token 2FA solutions out there?

<comment><AUTHOR> We make it really easy for anyone to use 2FA. The reason 2FA is not popular is not because there aren't enough solutions out there, it's because all of them are basically really hard to use. Specially those that claim to be easy, they are the opposite.

<comment><USER22> A valid goal, but I think you're misunderstanding your market: in your words, people don't use 2FA because it's hard to use -- not hard to implement. Organizations who have IT teams are fully capable of implementing reasonable APIs like what Duo or Google offers. But you'll realize that enterprises don't even care about the architecture, because they'll be paying you to implement it anyway.

No, the reason nobody (in and only in the US) uses 2FA (because nearly every other country in the world uses it widely) is because it's a pain to use for the end user. No enterprise is going to invest their time and energy into a solution unless they're either required to by regulations or is truly better, easier, more secure, or whatever than competing solutions to make it a compelling sale.

If this were a hobby project then I'd be cheering you on -- why not make a token 2FA with a slightly better API? But as a YC-funded company whose likely avenue of success will be through the enterprise market, you NEED to develop a product that is better, faster, easier, more secure, etc than your (rather formidable) competition.

Trust me, I'm familiar with this market ;).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Been using this for around a month and it's great. Highly recommended.

</comment><comment><USER24> Hm, can somebody explain what threat two-factor ssh-login is a response to?

If somebody went through the trouble of owning your machine, can't they bypass the two-factor as well? Yes, it requires a more "live" and target attack, but one would think ssh attacks like these are pretty targeted in the first place. Or? What am I missing?

<comment><USER25> Maybe I'm missing some assumptions of yours, but for me the reason to do that is to .. protect the ssh login.

Who talks about a machine that is owned? This is about an additional requirement to log on to a service, be it ssh or email. Whether you're reusing your password, sharing it or just use a really bad one this adds an additional step to impersonate you.

<comment><USER24> Yeah, but you can log-in with private keys instead of passwords, so that problem was solved a long time ago.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is great but one thing bugs me. When you add a new user, you have to restart SSH? Wouldn't that prevent people from connecting every time a new user is added?

<comment><USER6> Even if you restart the ssh server it won't prevent people from connecting to the server because SSH forks the clients.

<comment><USER26> Ah, that clears it up. Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> What about two-factor authentication for sudo? I'd rather start my users off with sudo 2 factor auth, and grow them into two-factor auth for ssh and other stuff.

</comment><comment><USER28> Fairly certain port forwarding still works while a command specified in ForceCommand is still running or if you specify a non-interactive shell.

Though I haven't checked ;)

</comment><comment><USER25> I added support for yubikey to my installation. That thing's always on my keychain and can be used as second factor or otp generator (or both).

</comment><comment><USER29> This is awesome. I wish the people at Authy the best. Now I'm gonna 2-factor auth the hell out of everything.

</comment><comment><USER30> yes exactly what I've been looking for, awesome tool! Thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER31> I can't wait until three-factor authentication!!!

</comment><comment><USER32> Great idea

</comment><comment><USER33> Simple and great idea</comment>


What's next for Twilio and its unicorn brethren? - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/01/whats-next-for-twilio-and-its-unicorn-brethren/?ncid=rss <comment><USER2> > The companies in the following chart are deliberately not labeled. We are > looking at general market trends, not comparing companies.

What the hell? You _absolutely_ have to compare tech company performance against each other, normalizing for scale and industry. The following chart even has a blank X-axis for "Time," where the Time-Since-IPO is variable for the 5 companies mentioned.

This method of deriving general trends as an explanation of IPO performance in light of Twilio's 5 day performance follows the same logic as correlation- implying-causation.

</comment><comment><USER3> TechCrunch often does an excellent job of reporting, for certain kinds of tech stories. This kind of analysis isn't one of them.</comment>


Amazon Employees Join the Rush to Buy Long Island City Condos - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-employees-join-the-rush-to-buy-long-island-city-condos-1542709801 <comment><USER2> Just to clarify: a total of two (!) employees, one of which already lives in Queens (where Long Island City is located). This looks like one of those "slow news day"-type stories.

</comment><comment><USER3> even if one thinks they are "trading" on insider info, how does one think companies gobble up parcels of land into a bigger parcel piece by piece. By also trading on insider info (that they want the whole large area). It's not considered illegal or immoral in a real estate context.</comment>


TweetCreeper.com -Weekend project using Node.js and Twitter API - <AUTHOR> http://www.tweetcreeper.com This is a data viz and exploration tool for Tweets in given area.  Currently limited to 5 cities (Boston, San Francisco, New York City, Dallas, Buffalo) (I have a soft spot for Buffalo).  Feedback appreciated.  I am also looking for early stage startups in Boston area please contact me here:<p>email@example.com firstname.lastname@example.com <comment><USER2> pretty clever and strangely addicting, someone come find and rescue me if you don't hear from me in the next hour

</comment><comment><USER3> Looks cool</comment>


Should you buy your stock options when you quit? - <AUTHOR> https://nealshyam.com/advice/2019/09/05/Should-You-Buy-Your-Stock-Options/ <comment><USER2> Anecdotes don't really matter much on this question. What matters is a) what information do you have at the time you quit b) how much capital do you have and c) what is your risk tolerance.

Basically it boils down to your prediction if the stock is going to be worth more than your strike price when it becomes liquid, and if you can tolerate the loss if you predict so and are wrong. Some scenarios this is a very good bet: you were early, your strike price is low, the company has had several valuations well above the strike price, the financials are healthy, and you can absorb the loss if you are wrong. The magnitude of the upside seems like it shouldn't be a factor, if these are true, if you think the risk adjusted return can beat the market. In most cases where it is sane to exercise your options you're expecting a multiple return, not a few points, so it basically should be irrelevant how much upside there is in absolute terms, once you've determined a full loss is tolerable.

<comment><USER3> Except that under US tax law, in that exact situation where you have options with a low strike price and the company's stock price has clearly increased significantly, the difference between the strike price and the stock price will be considered taxable income for the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) when you exercise.

In an absolute best case scenario where your strike price is 0 and the stock price is 100 (so the effective gain is infinite%) you're going to have income under the AMT regime of 100, and the effective tax rate under the AMT is around 30%. So you still have to pony up around 1/3rd of the current stock price in capital. This _severely_ constrains the real multiple return that you can achieve when exercising into a non-liquid stock and exposes you to enormous downside risk if those returns do not materialize.

<comment><USER4> If your strike price is near 0 then you should have done early exercise with 83b election to avoid the AMT tax (if your company permits this of course).

<comment><USER2> Yep file those 83(b)'s, I agree if you fail to do this you're in a much worse position. If your company doesn't let you exercise — leave.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _> Most startups only give you 90 days to buy your options once you leave. After that, they expire and revert back to the company._

This is the real problem here. While this used to be standard, many startups have started offering employees the maximum ten years allowed by the IRS. This is something to consider when joining a company: if they're not willing to give you the full ten years, why not? More: [https://triplebyte.com/blog/extending-stock-option- exercise-...](https://triplebyte.com/blog/extending-stock-option-exercise- window-guide) [https://zachholman.com/posts/fuck-your-90-day-exercise- windo...](https://zachholman.com/posts/fuck-your-90-day-exercise-window/)

<comment><USER6> Worth noting, even if you have an extended exercise window (i.e 10 years), your ISOs will turn into NSOs after 90 days since your departure (and thus have a different tax treatment!).

<comment><USER7> In addition, the spread can potentially get larger and larger with time, increasing the tax that you must pay to exercise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I worked for CollabNet from 2005-2010.

When I left, I bought my stock options.

I got a friendly letter in the mail a few years later telling me that the company had been restructured, and that my shares are now worthless.

If I'm getting shares as a part of equity, then I'll consider that as part of my comp package...however, if they're stock options, I generally completely disregard them: I haven't yet met a startup to change my mind.

<comment><USER9> Can anyone chime in as to how it is legal to remove someone's ownership from a company like that?

<comment><USER10> Bankruptcy .... when people use the word 'restructuring' it typically refers to some sort of change in the capital structure/ownership where by equity and maybe even some of the debt is either wiped out, worthless.

When accepting venture funding, the VC capital will come in as preffered equity which is similar in some ways to permanent debt with no interest payments.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The single best source that I've found - short of a CPA familiar with stock - is David Weekly's book: [https://blog.dweek.ly/introduction-to-stock-options- startup-...](https://blog.dweek.ly/introduction-to-stock-options-startup- founder-entrepreneur-employee/)

I was an early employee at Twilio (#25) and much later at Okta. Following his advice saved me thousands when I early exercised in both cases. My only complaint is that I didn't find and apply his advice sooner.

The author is right. Most of the time it doesn't make sense to exercise. If you join early, the strike price will be lower but the risk will be higher aka the odds are lower. If you join later, the strike price will be higher but the risk _should_ be lower aka the odds are better.

Regardless, having the liquidity at the right time can be hard, especially if you're caught in a layoff and don't have savings.

</comment><comment><USER12> One factor for me would be if the company was aggressive enough in its 409a valuations of _common_ stock.

If they are valuing the _common_ stock based on the last funding round which sold _preferred_ shares, you are likely significantly overpaying both for your exercise price and in AMT tax, and that makes the investment significantly riskier.

If common share FMV is discounted appropriately, IMO a 409a valuation will reflect the extreme risk of common shares dilution in an unprofitable venture with large investor preferences, and you should have a very low exercise price with little to no AMT unless the company is already well into planning an IPO.

At past companies I saw common stock valuation that matched the funding round valuation, and you should never be paying that price for common shares. 1/10th that price is a good rule of thumb.

The second most important factor is that you can't ever sell shares in a company that doesn't have a market for its shares. That vast majority of companies do not have, and never will have, marketable securities.

The third factor for me would be if the shares are eligible for QSBS Section 1202 treatment (tax free up to $10 million), which ISO options are not, but NSOs can be but the 5 year holding period starts at the exercise date.

<comment><USER13> This is not fully accurate.

You have to pay AMT on the difference between your strike price and the current 409a price of common. It doesn't have much to do with where preferred is valued, other than the fact that a high preferred value, means that the updated 409a common might be higher.

So let us say, your strike price is $0.50 and you are fully vested after 4 years. The company recently does a round where preferred is at $3.00 per share and the new 409a is $1.25/share. When you leave this is what will happen \- You need to pay the company $0.50 * number of options you have \- You have to pay AMT on (1.25-0.5) * number of shares

With last year's tax law, one good thing is that AMT rules changed, so AMT might not apply. You should, of course, talk to your accountant/tax professional for the proper advice :-)

<comment><USER12> That's exactly what I was trying to say — specifically the 409a valuations for several companies I've been at were _not_ appropriately reduced for common shares versus the preferred.

E.g. a company raising $5m Series D at a $30 million valuation, and which already has $10m in preferences. First you have to adjust the valuation because that $5m will be the first dollar out and might even be _participating_ preferred - so they are getting 1/6th of the company for $5m but they are also getting basically a $5m note payable.

If you asked them what they would pay without the preference maybe it's closer to $15m. Then you also have to adjust for the other outstanding preferences. So the common shares (which are likely to be even further diluted before they become marketable) in that case are presently nearly worthless.

Most people do not adequately consider the impact of preferred share preferences, future dilution, taxes, and marketability. These horseman turn a decision which might seem like at first glance to be, "Why give up the chance to participate in a future equity event?" into something more closely resembling a suckers bet.

<comment><USER14> > That's exactly what I was trying to say — specifically the 409a valuations > for several companies I've been at were not appropriately reduced for common > shares versus the preferred.

Anecdata, but I have seen this too.

Can someone knowledgable founder here please chime in on why companies do this? Does the higher common price help the company boost its compensation packages to match those from AmaGoogFaceSoft who give publicly traded stock?

<comment><USER12> Aside from companies just not generally understanding the value of a low common stock valuation? They could mistakenly believe the low common valuation will impact a future funding round.

The value can creep up over time, and then companies try to avoid the perception that the common stock would ever become less valuable, so they also might try to keep it rising.

Or perhaps more dubiously, they could be quoting stock option grants in terms of dollar value of the strike price, and want it to look higher for the same number of shares. In an offer letter, which seems like a larger/better grant; 10,000 options at a $3.80 exercise price, or 10,000 options at a $0.38 exercise price? You will almost never see a percentage value quoted, and I've heard of some companies claiming the total share count is not even public information!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> A couple of points

1) "Don't forget though, you'll have to pay taxes, because the value of your shares is likely greater than the price you paid to buy them."

This is not true if, like most stock options, yours are ISOs and you don't hit AMT.

2) "I didn't have enough money"

There are now places that'll loan you money secured against the value of the shares themselves. If the alternative is not exercising the shares at all, this is a pure win (these services eat into your profits, but some is better than 0)

3) "I didn't have enough time"

It's increasingly common for startups to have much more generous time spans for exercise. The 90 day window is required by law for ISOs, but many companies now autoconvert at the 90 day mark to NQSOs with much longer time spans, up to 10 years in some cases (Stripe, Pinterest, and Flexport are examples). This is something you should ask about before joining a company.

4) "I didn't think the company would survive"/"I have a low risk tolerance"

These are the only ones that _really_ matter. Like any investment, you gotta weigh the ROI and risk against your preferences.

<comment><USER16> > This is not true if, like most stock options, yours are ISOs and you don't > hit AMT.

I think for most folks in tech not hitting AMT with any reasonably sized option grant worth buying will be extremely rare:

1\. Options vest, usually over a 4 year span, so if one, two, three years go by at your startup and there _isn 't_ a large difference between your strike price and the current valuation, well then that's a huge signal you don't want to buy in any case. 2\. Given your average software developer salary and average range of options, it takes very little to actually hit AMT.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> As the author mentions, these sort of decisions can be very nuanced (thinking about valuation, dilution, liquidation preference, exit value, etc.).

Happy to help anyone thinking through these situations.

Put together some helpful resources and tools here: [https://withcompound.com/equity](https://withcompound.com/equity)

Some other useful guides:

[https://www.holloway.com/g/equity- compensation](https://www.holloway.com/g/equity-compensation)

[https://fortune.com/2016/09/27/the-complete-guide-to- underst...](https://fortune.com/2016/09/27/the-complete-guide-to- understanding-equity-compensation-at-tech-companies/)

</comment><comment><USER17> Two workarounds:

1\. Join a startup pre-Series A where the strike price is minimal because there hasn't been a priced equity round yet. Early exercise.

2\. Join startups that support Extended Exercise Windows. [https://github.com/holman/extended-exercise- windows](https://github.com/holman/extended-exercise-windows)

<comment><USER18> #1 is great for the cash outlay for exercising, but if the company has been even mildly successful with fundraising rounds then the spread will be significant and AMT could crush you.

<comment><USER19> The early exercise avoids the AMT exposure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I worked at a company from 2011 - 2013 that gave me the offer to buy out my options. I'm glad I didn't because that company was going out of business. The entire executive leadership team was swapped out 3 times over the course of 6 months by the board and we were getting crushed by competition. It was only a couple thousand dollars but I would have just lost it. The answer to this really depends on your situation and a lot of the points touched on in the post.

</comment><comment> denton-scratch This is a question of risk-appetite. I'm with the OP (I think); I like safety. Age is a factor (I'm no spring chicken, and anyway I can't wait that long for stuff to mature).

But I've also throughout my career aspired to be a skilled tradesman; I've tried to do a productive job well, rather than to try to lever myself up on the skills of others.

It hasn't made me rich (surprise!), but I'm happier than at least some of my colleagues who chose the more-enriching path.

</comment><comment><USER21> I worked at a startup for 5 years. the company recently had been valued at 700Million but only had 1 secondary offer, where I sold as much stock as they would let me (15% ~ worth roughly 6k pretaxes).

And when I left I had more stock options than anyone else there. But, the fact that they didn't have more liquidity events and the fact that I couldnt sell more of my stock, is kinda of a red flag. If no one else in the market wants the investment (no liquidity events), it's usually a bad sign. It was a pretty easy decision to not buy the rest of it. I think most of my coworkers bought theirs. Of course, it turned out they were all worthless.

</comment><comment><USER22> Also remember in these situations its usually not all or nothing. You can buy half your options, or just a fraction. That makes the choice less stressful.

</comment><comment><USER10> Stock options are often for common stock and if its in a VC backed company, the VC's will invest in the form of preffered equity which is like permanent debt with no interest payments. If the company is sold for 20% less than the last round, the VCs will be paid first and the common equity gets what is left over which could be 20%, 50%, 100% lower than what you thought you might get. So be careful....

</comment><comment><USER23> If the 409a price is greater than the strike price, of course you exercise. If you don't want to hold it just sell it back to the company.

Also this gets the tax treatment totally wrong. It's not treated as regular income when you exercise, only AMT income. This is a huge difference because the large default AMT credit means that you can exercise a substantial amount without paying taxes.

</comment><comment><USER24> As usual, Slate Money had a _stellar_ podcast segment about exactly this two weeks ago. I recommend having a listen.

[https://slate.com/podcasts/slate-money/2019/08/slate- money-a...](https://slate.com/podcasts/slate-money/2019/08/slate-money- answers-your-questions)

</comment><comment><USER25> If you are at a startup and decide to leave doesn't that also mean that you don't believe in the company anymore? I understand that there are always cases like better position or other personal issues that make people move but for the most part the original statement holds true. So you don't buy out the stock options and move on.

<comment><USER26> > _If you are at a startup and decide to leave doesn 't that also mean that > you don't believe in the company anymore?_

No. Companies that are terrible workplaces can be great investments and vice versa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Short answer, from experience: unless the company is on a clear track to a liquidation event, no.

That said I bought half the options of my last company because the strike price -> FMV was great enough to take the risk. However I consider that a gamble equal to rolling pass line in Vegas, and I didn't make the bet with money I needed to live on.

</comment><comment><USER28> Are there tax benefits to exercising early? Hypothetically say I have some options with a pretty cheap exercise price, and I think the company will be taking on PE money in the near future, AND I have faith that the company will successfully exit in the future, will exercising early save me some taxes?

<comment><USER29> Yes. If you can exercise at a low price then all of your gains after that will be taxed at capital gains rates instead of ordinary income rates.

Note that if you just started you can likely "early exercise" all of your options right now by filing an 83B and paying the company the strike price. You generally have 90 days from the date of the option grant to do this.

<comment><USER23> This is just wrong. You pay capital gains, not ordinary income, tax regardless if you exercise early or not.

The only benefit to exercising early is to avoid the AMT impact.

<comment><USER29> This is not correct, and I'm not sure why you would think this. In general the way to think about capital gains is that you can't qualify for them unless you have purchased something that then appreciates in value.

So for stock options, you don't start the clock on the long term capital gains rate or set a cost basis for your capital gain until you exercise the option and shell out the cash for the strike price.

There is all kinds of information on the internet about this if you don't believe me.

<comment><USER23> I'm talking about incentive stock options (ISO), which is the most common thing to get. Non-statutory stock options (NSO) are entirely different and are not common for normal startup employees.

When you exercise ISOs, you are buying the stock at the strike price. It doesn't matter what the current market price of it is (other than for AMT). The cost basis is the strike price.

The "clock" for determine long-term vs short-term starts when you exercise, but it doesn't affect the cost basis. If you don't hold it long enough the gain may get taxed as short-term or ordinary income (usually no a difference except in a couple of states).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Is there a way to set a reminder to read it again when one of those companies exits/wraps up?

</comment><comment><USER31> "What's 75%, of half a percent, of a million dollars? $37,500"

It's a risk, and as such, one should aim at a billion, not a million, that's what investors expect anyway. So by that logic, the return could be much much bigger.

</comment><comment><USER32> TL;DR: No. (Betteridge's Law-compliant!)

Which matches my experience. Think about why you're leaving - probably for reasons which might help predict the company's future.

</comment><comment><USER33> Well ask the folks at Cloudera and MapR. Doubt that played out well for many.

</comment><comment><USER34> funny, I have actual full shares of an old company I used to work for (got the shares at a discount instead of options), but I'm still waiting for the phone call telling me I'm rich.

</comment><comment><USER35> I wish this would get discussed in the context of options that actually would be worth something, just once. Seems like a much easier decision when you're talking about a company that hasn't experienced much interesting growth and is likely not going anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER36> blah blah blah another yawner ... we all know where this is headed and it's cut and dried math.

wait wait, no there are some valuable insights here:

> You make decisions based on what you know, not by looking at a crystal ball.

> I didn't want to look back. [...] To me, the possibility of missing out on a > big payday wasn't worth the cost to my psyche.</comment>


The new Google Search app for iPad - <AUTHOR> http://googlemobile.blogspot.com/2011/11/new-google-search-app-for-ipad.html

<comment><USER2> Nice. This looks awesome. Maybe it's just me, but it's a little ironic that Google has obviously spent a lot of time making a really cool app for iOS while neglecting their very own OS, Android. I use both and would love a tool like this for Android. Props to Google.

</comment><comment><USER3> Unless I'm misinterpreting this, it looks like Google has managed to write what is essentially a third-party iPad browser and get it accepted into the App Store. They've even got a Chrome OS like page for apps. Am I missing something here, or is Google trying to usurp Apple's control?

<comment><USER4> Add multiple tabs and I'd never use Safari again. Think Safari on iOS 5 got worse... the top nav bar takes up more room now.

<comment><USER3> From the video in this link, it looks like they might start going for the tabbed thing. That window that the search results are pulled up in looks a lot like a tab to me. Just a matter of time, Google...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The app is indeed very nice to use but while minimizing (five finger gesture) I get a red (Recording) bar on top - not sure what is going on. Anyone else get this? I have already denied location permission to the app.

</comment><comment><USER6> This looks really great. There are some awesome new interactions that might actually work really well. I'm happy to see Google didn't try to pull what they did with their Gmail app.

<comment><USER3> Excuse my ignorance (I'm follow Android much more closely than iOS), but what did they pull with their Gmail app?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is basically google chrome on Ipad nice...</comment>


Beyond Good and Evil (1886) [pdf] - dawg- https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Nietzsche-Beyond-Good-and-Evil.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Nietzsche is quite of a complex philosopher to read directly without any guide that looks at his thought holistically imho. I would recommend:

1\. Walter Kaufmann's Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist

2\. Basic writings of Nietzsche with Introduction by Peter Gay Translated and edited by Walter Kaufmann Commentary by Martin Heidegger, Albert Camus, and Gilles Deleuze

<comment><USER2> I would probably recommend reading Human All Too Human, The Gay Science and Thus Spoke Zarathustra before Beyond Good and Evil.

You kind of need to get into his train of thought to appreciate what he's getting at.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> If you'd rather have a definitely-PD ePub than a probably-not-PD PDF then Standard Ebooks has a nice copy: [https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/friedrich- nietzsche/beyond...](https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/friedrich- nietzsche/beyond-good-and-evil/helen-zimmern)

<comment><USER4> What does PD mean, as you use it there?

<comment><USER5> Public domain

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is from Cambridge Press, copyright 2002. If it is in the public domain I don't understand why. But if it is, I want to know what other Cambridge Press titles are!

</comment><comment><USER7> There are probably tons of other public domain books like this one available online. Any reason why this one is posted here?

</comment><comment><USER8> if someone wants to understand the person behind his philosophy the recent biography book "I am dynamite" is really recommended.

</comment><comment><USER9> No dogmatic POV will stay untouched in this book.

Kind of a tough medicine, but it may help you out from the depth of depression. I know Jordan Peterson refers to it in a couple of talks.

Also it is so sharp and so linked to modern identity politics.</comment>


Ask HN: Anyone know how to un-hijack my friend's Clickpass account? - <AUTHOR>

A friend and I both use Clickpass to access HN.  She uses her Facebook account, and I use my OpenID.  I logged in from her computer the other day using my OpenID, and now she is completely unable to log in to HN with Clickpass.  It always takes her to my OpenID provider.
We've tried clearing cache, deleting cookies, even using another browser, and it always directs her back to my OpenID provider.
Anyone have any ideas?  Clickpass sure is user friendly...until you need to change something! <comment><USER2> I would think the place to ask would be their contact form: <http://www.clickpass.com/docs/contact>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Believe it or not, I did try to find a "contact us" link on their site and was stymied. I guess I didn't think to look in the About Us section.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Hi MicahWedemeyer, Sorry for the trouble. I will be in touch via email to help fix this.

Thanks, Immad (Clickpass co-founder)</comment>


Twitter Says Impersonating Journalist During Mass Shooting Doesn't Violate Rules - <AUTHOR> https://www.buzzfeed.com/janelytvynenko/doctored-reporter-tweets <comment> V-eHGsd_ twitter is cancer.</comment>


Can Nicotine Be Good for You? - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/opinion/sunday/can-nicotine-be-good-for-you.html?_r=0 <comment><USER2> Nicotine gum causes nicotine allergy after couple of years. Thereafter mouth ulcers from gum, persistent coughing from smoking and skin rash from nicotine patches. Nothing else to do but stop using altogether.

Hopefully in heaven you can choose between 57 virgins and whiskey and cigars.</comment>


San Francisco officials follow Mountain View with bid to ban free lunch - <AUTHOR> https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/01/san-francisco-officials-follow-mountain-view-with-bid-to-ban-free-lunch-for-techies/ <comment><USER2> I like this trend. Companies were given huge tax breaks to set up shop in SF. The least they can do is allow the local economy to flourish.</comment>


Kerala temple's secret vaults yield £12bn in treasure - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/04/kerala-temple-vault-treasure

<comment><USER2> This comment is only borderline HN-worthy, since it is going to mix religion, philosophy, and politics:

1) We historically give religious organizations wide discretion in the accumulation of wealth and how they dispose of it. This is controversial in some quarters, but even if one were not inclined to be religious or to see present value in relatively wealthy religious institutions, one could justify it as respecting "the democracy of the dead" and not overturning their distributional preferences on the mere strength that you happen to be living right now and they do not.

2) A Catholic or Protestant church suddenly discovered to be wealthier than expected would not be expected to surrender that wealth to the government in virtually any Western country, which is (per 1) for the best. If it were a country I had any political say in, I would be _strongly_ inclined to grant Hindu temples the same courtesy.

3) Poverty in India sucketh royally. Contrasting that with a particular rich temple makes sense if, and only if, one has an efficient gold-into-anti- poverty engine. There may exist a system which fits that description, but the present government of India is manifestly not it. In the absence of evidence that windfall taxation would be treated differently than India's other sources of revenue, which get redirected to corruption and cronyism with some regularity, I would be inclined to leave the gold in the ground. Giving it to the government does not guarantee that it does not get looted, to put it mildly.

<comment><USER3> Also, religions have historically been particularly focused on helping the poor. One can argue if they're being effective, you can argue if they're doing enough, you can argue that they hold on to too much wealth--but many religions do in fact have a mandate to help the poor. Whether this qualifies as a "gold- into-anti-poverty engine is somewhat debatable.</comment></comment>


China hacked two US satellites in '07 and '08 - <AUTHOR> http://www.itworld.com/security/225643/two-us-satellites-pwned-07-08-new-report-blames-china <comment><USER2> Nothing stays secret forever, so it's probably time to create new satellites with upgraded interfaces. Them's the breaks.

Off-shoring most electronics manufacture in the US is probably a "Battlestar Galactica" size mistake, though. Even if our super-military grade electronics are home grown, where will we get the expertise to continue to make such without a domestic industry?

<comment><USER3> What country do you think most of the advanced microprocessors are made in? The US has a lot of experience building super-expensive fabs and mass- producing amazingly complex microprocessors, which is why if you look into your computer, you'll notice that your processor was made in the US, not China.

<comment><USER4> For those that care:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricati...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants)

Nvidia uses TSMC/UMC, AMD uses GlobalFoundries

<comment><USER2> Thanks for the list. I'm a bit surprised to learn most of these are still in the US. There are quite a few in various Asian countries, though, including China.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _"In 2007 the Chinese military launched a ballistic missile into orbit to destroy an obsolete Chinese weather satellite. It scared the hell out of NASA because of the sudden cloud of new debris in orbit (which at one point forced astronauts to leave the International Space Station to during one dangerous pass by the debris."_

This was by far the more onerous problem. What many folks don't internalize is that there is an interesting balance between being able to be in orbit, and the junk there. Once it exceeds a certain density the existing satellites will become victims to collisions, their debris will add to the junk which will take out all of the rest. One computer model has all of 'low earth' orbit from 100 - 150 miles out being destroyed (including the ISS) with the destruction of as few as 5 satellites. Actually deploying a debris field could render earth orbit unusable with 2 launches. What is worse is once you have this mass of junk up there you can't relaunch new satellites to recover, they won't survive. And you can't launch to Geo because you can't get through the swamp, game over for space assets.

Pretty much the space activity for the next decade after that event is cleanup strategies.

<comment><USER6> That's not really true in LEO or above geosynchronous orbit. Small objects can't stay in LEO for vary long because of atmospheric drag. And above geosynchronous orbit most existing satellites don't have enough energy for pieces of them to reach that orbit. Realistically, you can also design redundant systems that can withstand a lot of impacts without failing. So, while you could destroy a lot of what's up there after a few years people could start putting things back into orbit.

PS: I would look at a lot of this stuff as a combination of misinformation and requests for a larger budget. The single most important hacking indecent involved a few small group of teenagers that exploited some mail servers and caused enough havoc that nuking the city that the attacks seemed to be originating from was on the table. Read up on "Solar Sunrise" and don't fuck with NORAD they don't feel the need to play nice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Bockris further advises that interface with Ono-Sendai Cyberspace 7 is entirely compatible and yields optimal penetration capabilities, particularly with regard to existing military systems...."

"How about an AI?"

"Existing military systems and artificial intelligences."

"Jesus Christ. What did you call it?"

"Kuang Grade Mark Eleven."

"It's Chinese?"

"Yes."

Wiliam Gibson, Neuromancer, 1984

<comment><USER8> _The military and diplomatic communications of the preceding fifty years showed before the light of their minds. At the same time as they surveyed the satellite data, Mr. Slippery and Erythrina swept through these bureaucratic communications, looking carefully but with flickering speed at every requisition for toilet paper, every "declaration" of secret war, every travel voucher, everyone of the trillions of pieces of "'paper" that made it possible for the machinery of state to creak forward. And here the signs were much clearer; large sections were subtly changed, giving the same feeling the eye's blind spot gives, the feeling that nothing is really obscured but that some things are simply gone. Some of the distortions were immense. Under their microscopic yet global scrutiny, it was obvious that all of Venezuela, large parts of Alaska, and most of the economic base for the low satellite net were all controlled by some single interest that had little Connection with the proper owners. Who their enemy was still a mystery, but his works loomed larger and larger around them._

Vernor Vinge, _True Names_ , 1981

<comment><USER9> Vinge makes any other writer look like they lack vision.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is important to note, these were not intelligence satellites. This is more like the Chinese government doing what some of the hacker sub culture has done for a long time: rattle the lock and see how easy it is to open. Presumably security was not a big concern, because how many jerks would have the means to hack into these? And what could you accomplish other than vandalism? As it turns out, now we know. Live and learn.

</comment><comment><USER11> Wow, and almost a month after AmericaSpace.org broke this story.

<http://www.americaspace.org/?p=9946>

<comment><USER12> This is from the "2011 REPORT TO CONGRESS of the U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC AND SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION" report. Just giving a breakdown of the current state. This was not a flash message or a breaking news report. The time for the breaking news was in '07 and '08 _not_ in 2011 ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> The report didn't pin it on China. What kinda moronic title is this?

</comment><comment><USER14> Because of language and the Chinese govt's lack of openness, we don't hear of Chinese satellites or companies pwned by American hackers. I wonder how much US-initiated cyberwhatevorrism takes place.

</comment><comment><USER15> i worry... i worry...

<comment><USER16> it's really a joke ,i think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> comforting, not.</comment>