Lithium chloride kills a honey bee parasite by a systemic mode of action - <AUTHOR> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-19137-5 <comment><USER2> While this is exciting, I can't help but notice-

 _Under the conditions of the common beekeeping practice in non-tropical regions, which are characterized by high colony densities, prevention of swarming and periodical mite control, it seems difficult to achieve a more balanced host-parasite relationship. Thus far, a long-term survival of A. mellifera colonies without any control measures is nearly exclusively reported from feral populations or colonies kept continuously under natural selection pressure_

 _Varroa mites have evolved resistance to all available synthetic acaricides_

In other words, this discovery is just another step following the footsteps of other failing herbicidal & insecticidal campaigns. Doing things nature's way is inconvenient, so we develop chemicals. But eventually, resistance is developed, and then we are in an arms race that will never end.

It would be nice to see more attention paid to the well-being of native pollinators, which already take care of themselves in regards to parasites & diseases, but whose numbers have been falling in recent years.

 _Managed honey bee colonies supplement the work of natural wild pollinators, not the other way around. In a study of 41 different crop systems worldwide, honeybees only increased yield in 14 percent of the crops. Who did all the pollination? Native bees and other insects._

[https://www.wired.com/2015/04/youre-worrying-wrong- bees/](https://www.wired.com/2015/04/youre-worrying-wrong-bees/)

[http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2011/10/native-bees-are- bett...](http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2011/10/native-bees-are-better- pollinators-honeybees)

<comment><USER3> _> It would be nice to see more attention paid to the well-being of native pollinators, which already take care of themselves in regards to parasites & diseases._

There's a second avenue which is the treatment-free solution practiced by some beekeepers. The idea there is to keep the selection pressure and just out- evolve the parasites. Given that managed bees reproduce much more often than natural populations there's a chance it might work and some encouraging results:

[http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm](http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm)

<comment><USER4> Thanks for that link, lots of interesting stuff on there.

For anyone interested, (one of?) the way that this selection pressure manifests is in grooming behavior: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWMSIbeKoFQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWMSIbeKoFQ) The trade-off is less honey production and slower comb building.

<comment><USER5> Alive bees make more honey than dead ones though.

<comment><USER6> This is true but misses the point. Beekeeping is done for the sake of pollination: flowering fruit and crop pollination is where the money is at and the focus of the beekeeping industry. The vast majority of managed bee colonies in the US are used for this purpose. Bloom times are region and species specific. California almonds, for example, are usually the earliest bloom. Hives will be moved around based on those patterns. We're not talking 5, 20, or 100 hives, we're talking 10,000 to 250,000 hives at the high end. As blooms end the hives are moved to new orchards through out the growing season. Think bee hives on flat beds crisscrossing the country. At that scale replacing queens gets very expensive (and the hive may reject her anyway) due to veroa mite stress and the loss of the hive is common. Any honey not used by the bees along the way is sold to third parties which in turn sell it to consumers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is great news, but I have a few questions that weren't covered in the article:

1\. How long-lasting is the effect? How long does the LiCl stay "active"? Will bees need to be fed this at a regular cadence to keep them mite free?

2\. Is there any evidence on whether or not the LiCl makes its way into the honey produced by treated bees? LiCl can affect the nervous system (although this is an extremely low quantity). I'm just wondering if there is someone who eats a LOT of honey, could they be impacted (similar to those people who reportedly got mercury poisoning from eating too much fish)

I know very little about the biological mechanisms at work here, but those were two thoughts that immediately came to mind.

<comment><USER8> _1\. How long-lasting is the effect? How long does the LiCl stay "active"? Will bees need to be fed this at a regular cadence to keep them mite free?_

The paper says that a single feeding achieved good results, though worse than continued feeding spanning a few days. It seems then that a single treatment will only kill mites that are already in the hive, but will not do anything to help develop immunity. Looks like bee keepers will just have to add lithium compounds to the list of treatments they already regularly apply.

 _2\. Is there any evidence on whether or not the LiCl makes its way into the honey produced by treated bees?_

The paper mentions that it doesn't accumulate in bees wax, though it says nothing about the honey. They discuss potential toxicity though, and it seems that lithium is not toxic to mammals in concentrations relevant here. Certainly there is no bioaccumulation effect here that makes eating fish somewhat dangerous.

<comment><USER9> I would guess that a small amount would get in the honey the bees were making at that time, but beekeepers would not harvest that honey. When many flowers are blooming, a second box is added to the hive just for honey( a super). At this time the beekeeper does no additional feeding.

<comment><USER10> Most treatment see the honey supers removed to avoid contamination. There are a few exception which don't require this, like oxalic acid.

When the honey flow starts, you need to add boxes fast - I'm up to 7 and 2 of those have been removed, extracted and put back on.

<comment><USER9> Where are your bees? I am just getting started in South Florida.

<comment><USER10> New Zealand - quite possibly a better bit of the season here!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If this is true in real trials, it is a big thing. Varroa mites have developed resistance to fluvalvinate, which is most commonly used miticide and formic acid is really easy to overdose. Lithium cloride in those quantities is quite safe and low cost. Even more, with short treatment duration (48h at 25mM concentration) one can time the treatment well to reduce LiCl ending up in the honey.

</comment><comment><USER10> Broodless bees are worth treating and it provides a great knockdown at a time varroa are vulnerable. But bees aren't broodless most the time or necessarily any of the time. It's far harder to treat brood and that's the key area as it's where the varroa are.

</comment><comment><USER12> > From these data, we concluded that LiCl, not RNA knockdown, mediated the > observed activity on Varroa mites and that it would be worthwhile to analyse > the potential of LiCl as a varroacide.

Interesting how correlation doesn't mean causation :).

</comment><comment><USER13> One idea is to engineer micro robots with similar size and use image recognition to find these mites near nests and they go in and kick ass. Like how a few hornets can take care of thousands of bees. This is a future todo

<comment><USER10> Not robotic, but a similar hunt/kill strategy is is being tried here with a relative of the scorpion. They coexist with bees and and eat varroa. Plenty of discussion happing among the bee geeks. [https://www.nzbees.net/forums/topic/1465-beekeeping-and- the-...](https://www.nzbees.net/forums/topic/1465-beekeeping-and-the- pseudoscorpion/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hopefully this discovery will help solve the colony collapse problem.</comment>


Show HN: 2.5B people can't afford internet – need your opinion on our solution - <AUTHOR> https://giveinternet.org/ <comment><USER3> Interesting, but buying in to the Google world requires a substantial amount of locking-in. Perhaps you should examine open source, open OSes and not OSes designed to funnel data to large for-profit companies.

"Studets" should have an "n" ;) ([https://giveinternet.org/en/our- work/projects](https://giveinternet.org/en/our-work/projects))

What kind of work is going on to provide alternative methods of Internet delivery, be they sharing from other parts of communities, buying Internet in bulk, working with ISPs to get discounted pricing, et cetera?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback. Agree, we are considering open-source OS's as well. We are at an early stage and Chromebooks were fast and cheap solutions to start with. But will take your comment into consideration.

We work with the incumbent operators and smaller Wifi providers. They offer free installations for our families and in some areas discounts on a monthly fee. Btw we thought we were solving the affordability problem, but it turned out some local Wifi operators are willing to deploy infrastructure in areas where they considered not profitable before. As part of our partnership in September, they launch a new base station in a rural area of Georgia and we are excited about it.

<comment><USER4> "Stundents" -> "Students"

<comment><USER5> Amazing Google still has 6,160,000,000 hits for the prior. IMHO, it is a new word due to large typos.

<comment><USER6> Google's search results are pretty meaningless these days due to changes in presentation of results and inference of intent

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> GiveInternet.org allows anyone to sponsor monthly Internet fees and laptops for underprivileged high school students from refugee settlements and rural areas.

Through monthly recurring donations from up to 700 individuals, we have equipped 350+ students with Chromebooks, Internet access, educational resources and our constant online mentorship. Our donors receive monthly transparency reports with details on every cost, student success stories, and our progress. Now we are working to incorporate a 501(c)3 nonprofit in the US and expand operations to the Middle East and Africa by collaborating with partners on the ground.

As we expand and refine our product, we need your honest feedback on our platform! Let us know what you think about the website, our business model, etc.

How?

Comment here; Fill out this 3-5 minute survey - [http://bit.ly/2P3wDj6](http://bit.ly/2P3wDj6) Schedule a call with us for an interview-[https://calendly.com/gjibladze/giveInternet](https://calendly.com/gjibladze/giveInternet)

<comment><USER7> I think this is an amazing project but isn't there a better alternative to chromebooks?

Maybe used laptops, can usually get leased business laptops for a similar price, and they don't actively spy you at all times.

<comment><USER8> Can't you run Linux on a Chromebook? Not sure if it has problems.

[https://itsfoss.com/install-linux-chromebook/](https://itsfoss.com/install- linux-chromebook/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the link. I don't remember we've tried this

<comment><USER8> Note that Chromebooks have a different keyboard, so you may want to rebind a few things. [https://wiki.galliumos.org/Media_keys_and_default_keybinding...](https://wiki.galliumos.org/Media_keys_and_default_keybindings)

Chromebooks have a "Search" key instead of CAPS lock, and the F1..F10 keys are Back, Forward, Reload, Full screen, Switch Window, Brightness Up, Brightness Down, Mute, Volume Down, Volume Up. F11 and F12 might use Search with + and -

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> We probably should analyse the way it's done in India: ultra-cheap mobile Internet (how do they manage to both provide the coverage and sustain such low prices?) and budget-class devices. There has even been a post about the new class of cheap phones which are more like those of the pre-iPhone era. I believe giving everybody access to YouTube, Reddit and Wikipedia is important.

<comment><USER10> I guess when you talk about India you mainly talk about Jio. They are founded by Reliance Industries which is largest publicly traded company there. Most of the network rollout and phone prices (nobody knows real BOM for their phones) are subsidized and the general business plan seems to be to make money from value added services that can be obtained from Jio in the future.

Also to make rollout cheaper they negotiated some exclusive deals with Samsung; wrote their own operational support systems instead of buying off the shelf ( very expensive for deployment and integration) and probably did a whole bunch of other stuff.

It's not something that can be repeated without having large sums of money to support it

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I really like the idea of transparent charities helping spread access to information.

The most difficult challenge will be demonstrating effectiveness relative to other charities operating near this space. Computer Aid International focuses on refurbishing used computers and providing them to those living at income levels 1 or 2, spending only around $42 per recipient. Room to Read specializes in building low cost libraries and schools, serving communities at a cost of $5 or $25 per child respectively, and they are really highly rated on transparency and effectiveness.

I think you can justify the focus on Internet and Georgia, but I think you should be mindful of where the bar is set and aggressively try to push towards that. That might involve some hard choices, like whether Chromebooks can help as many students as lower cost options.

Emphasizing that donors choose how much is allocated to administrative costs seems like another odd choice to me. If you are serious about that, then you could get in an unstable situation. Donors could easily have unsustainable preferences here, because they generally lack experience running charities.

If you're just trying to convince donors that you are not wasting their money, I'd focus instead on independent audits on effectiveness. Then be vocal when you make hard choices about expenses, like through a blog of some kind, so you can show you're trying to save money where possible, and trying to spend money in ways that will maximize your impact.

Spreading access to information can be incredibly powerful, so I hope you find a way for your program to take off, thanks for taking on this challenge.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks for the great feedback. \- We've tried used laptops. In the short run, they might work, but the maintenance of the used ones is very hard & expensive in the long run. The initial cost might be around 42 USD, but overall we might end up with a much higher cost. But still, we're always looking for more effective ways. \- The problem is so big, there are many untapped geographies. We might even consider working with Computer Aid on this. They might become our partners in some regions. \- Since every donor is choosing how much to give for the operations & innovation we don't see any problem. It's almost the same as tips, which are widely practiced by many charities. Though you're right we have to be conscious about it. The average at the moment is 17% \- Independent audit is a good idea. We are talking to EY and BDO about it. So that they could run/approve our transparency. \- The blog to reveal hard choices is a wonderful idea. Thanks a lot!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Why is this something that requires a non-profit to do? Facebook, Google and Amazon are desperate to get more eyeballs and clicks on their apps. Giving some one a Chromebook feels like just donating money to those companies...who definitely don't need it.

Why should we, ordinary citizens contribute to this company? And have you brought it to Google and Facebook for sponsorship? Would you accept $$$ from them if they offered it?

<comment><USER13> Yeah I think this is where regulation might be the right tool.

Facebook: "well I want to give out FaceBooks that an only access our websites, but I'll settle for more eyeballs on the ads even if they use the devices to surf the web too."

<comment><USER14> Facebook was provided exactly that trade-off in India, and pulled out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I would recommend meeting up with the SudoMesh folks in Oakland if you are nearby, they get together every Tuesday. Though, probably better to do after CCCamp wraps up.

[https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Mesh](https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Mesh)

<comment><AUTHOR> Will reach them out. Thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> If the aim is to provide internet access to as many people as possible, wouldn't a cheap phone running Android Go or KaiOS be a more efficient use of the money? Any particular reason you went with Chromebooks instead?

<comment><AUTHOR> First, we started with the used ones, but the maintenance of used devices was a disaster. Chromebooks were cheap, fast, virus-free and with bigger screens (More convenient for education) We buy them from 150-180 USD per unit. But this doesn't mean we' always go with Chromebooks. We always consider any other solutions based on the need of the project

<comment><USER17> Are Chromebooks really that much cheaper than "regular" Windows or OS-less Laptops? If so, why?

<comment><AUTHOR> They are cheaper mainly because the Chrome OS is Free (and maybe because they have almost no hard inside;) As far as we know OS and antivirus licenses make Windows more expensive.

<comment><USER18> That explains why they're cheaper than Windows, but what makes them cheaper than equivalent hardware with e.g. Ubuntu?

<comment><AUTHOR> Right. We have tested Ubuntu as well. Still figuring out what the right solutions are. Do you think Ubuntu might be a better option? Or are there any other solutions that might be relevant for us?

<comment><USER19> I would personally recommend ubuntu. It's also free and unlikely to get viruses. Plus, In my experience from helping the elderly and other computer illiterates get connected, it often has a much gentler learning curve.The main hurdle then would be to find the cheap hardware with decent compatibility (perhaps a cheap 2 in 1).

Also, you should consider approaching canonical about sponsorship. Considering their relationship with amazon there has to be some funding to be found there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Got it! Will definitely consider Ubuntu and approach Canonical. Thanks a lot!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> If you're targeting those in countries with less freedom, you will want to be careful about pictures and names. A woman trying to get an education in afghanistan is life or death.

<comment><AUTHOR> Agree. Good point! We had the same issue in Georgia in a village with a Muslim minority population. We try to be very careful when it comes to the privacy issue. We have signed documents of the family members giving us the rights to use photos on the website. Not everybody agrees. And we never use family names.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Maybe tech companies would contribute based on the extra money they can make. If Google can earn $5 for each additional user, they should be willing to pay 4.99 to create new users.

<comment><AUTHOR> Good talking point! Will keep in mind, thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Gamarjoba,

I think what you are doing is very important thing but it's not scalable to 2.5b people.

The biggest problem for those 2.5b people are:

\- Availability of network infrastructure. It starts with whatever network backbone and ends with either mobile internet or wifi network. In most cases there is no business case to build out this kind of infrastructure as there is essentially no way to recover investment unless its subsidized by government or world bank or something.

\- Availability of electricity. There is many place that simply has none or it's very unreliable. It has twofold influence - its hard to build infrastructure that will work and people have no place to charge phones/laptops

\- The actual price of devices. Even if you are talking about advanced feature phones or low end smart phones (laptops are way out of price range for most of 2.5b people) its still expensive. There is all kind of schemes with operators subsidizing the device over few years but it's bring arpu to very low numbers making it hardly viable business.

Edit. I actually lived in Georgia during the "fun" time, late 80s - early 90s. Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Gamarjoba:) We've researched this issue thoroughly and the infrastructure is not an issue. While 50% of the world's population lacks internet access only 15% live out of the coverage area of 3/4 G networks. This is actually where the number 2.5 Bn comes from. The main challenge is the affordability of monthly internet fees and of course devices. We actually solve both problems by providing devices and an internet connection.

Electricity might be an issue in some areas but according to our assumptions, more than 160 million secondary students in low and low-middle income countries live in cities and areas where electricity is not an issue.

Btw by working with the local communities, providing resources, training and constant assistance, we also seem to encourage them to see the relevance of an Internet connection. We hope to prove that most of our beneficiaries will be willing to continue paying for their Internet fees long after we have stopped paying for them. According to preliminary studies most of the families are ready to reprioritize their costs and maintain an internet connection.

The "Fun" times you mentioned is one of the reasons why we've started GiveInternet.org since we have experienced first-hand the transformational power of connectivity in improving people's lives.

<comment><USER10> I'll disagree. I worked previously "somewhere" that had yearly budget of tens of millions of dollars in order to tackle this specific issue - <USER2> internet to people that do not have it. We had extremely good data, most of which not available publicly; dozen(s) of people working solely on identifying scope of problem while other people trying to come up with solutions.

I don't have the data anymore so I can argue with you on exact numbers , but even when you are talking about 3/4g networks, in most of the cases it will be 3g and rolling out 4g is too expensive and backbone wont have enough capacity to serve all the people that are lacking access.

>Electricity might be an issue in some areas but according to our assumptions, more than 160 million secondary students in low and low-middle income countries live in cities and areas where electricity is not an issue.

You cant really just buy enough hardware for everyone. It doesn't work well on scale. See one laptop per child.

<comment><AUTHOR> I understand and maybe 2.5 Bn might be under question.

But lets just to narrow it down to one country - US. One of the worlds strongest economy. Only in the US more than 3 million families with school- aged children can't afford internet connection (Sprint claims it's 5 Mio families) That's why these programs exist: [http://1millionproject.org/](http://1millionproject.org/), [https://www.internetessentials.com/](https://www.internetessentials.com/), [https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income- cons...](https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-consumers)

Now imagine other countries and cities even developed ones. Not talking about developing countries. Btw 160 million secoindary students which I mentioned exclude rural areas, only those who live in urban areas.

Regarding the devices, I agree that might be challenging but the prices for devices are decreasing dramatically. Plus some models of monthly installments can make it plus 5-10 USD to monthly internet fees, which is pretty acceptable. So we believe in the long run the device problem is also solvable.

<comment><USER10> I actually live in US now. It's complicated over here. There are numbers that are talking about 20% of so that either cant afford or dont have in general access due to absence of infrastructure.

Will play devils advocate a bit: there is a lot of projects that attempt sponsoring model. Why one should choose yours over, lets say, this one [https://www.worldvision.org/sponsor-a-child-in- africa](https://www.worldvision.org/sponsor-a-child-in-africa) .

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Your solution to what? To People who don't need an Internet but have other important issues to deal with? You're hoping that by putting them on the Internet you're going to create a new market?

I don't understand the point of this. I thought the people who cared about being on the Internet already were.

<comment><USER5> if "IoT/Robot/AI" or whatever it becomes can adapt to their needs, the people who don't need the internet, maybe there is a market there.

<comment><USER22> Well, this is the general idea:

People can either afford the Internet or not. If they can't afford it, there are good chances they can't afford to pay any other bills.

These people are usually not in developing countries, but the developed ones. The developed ones where no amount of government laws can bring affordable Internet to the public, nor any places with free WiFi nor good libraries with free browsing facilities.

So clearly, there is something bigger at play, and it is about artificially pricing people out of a market being the ultimate goal.

The people who do really need to be on the Internet in such a society would have already worked their way around it. And if not, they have other issues to take care of before they go to artificially high priced internet.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure there are more important things to solve for so many families, but In the modern world, we can skip on gradually solving basic needs. We can and should leapfrog. Furthermore, we believe that internet access and access to information can play a catalyst role in solving those problems. Today we take the internet for granted, but it's luxury for so many people. It is a commodity like water and electricity.

One thing is, what we think people need and another is what they really need. It will be more relevant to use so-called LSM's - Lifestyle measures while evaluating the importance of the internet. That said how do we explain the resident of the village with no clean drinking water, buying a cell phone or kitchen appliance? or a mother paying for her son's education tutoring, even when she goes hungry? A farmer investing in cattle before improving his house? These are all facts and I am sure many of us have heard these stories. One thing is what we perceive and another is what people really need.

Btw by working with the local communities, providing resources, training and constant assistance, we also seem to encourage them to see the relevance of an Internet connection. We hope to prove that most of our beneficiaries will be willing to continue paying for their Internet fees long after we have stopped paying for them. According to preliminary studies most of the families are ready to reprioritize their costs and maintain an internet connection. Because of the high price barrier, they couldn't afford the internet and now since they understand its role in their lives and its relevance, their priorities have changed.

<comment><USER22> Okay, what is the first thing the poor families should be doing after getting the said internet connection?

Is the answer - job opportunities, free education, survival skills? The truth is that the internet does provide these, but how many of them actually use it?

<comment><AUTHOR> What we can say from our experience of working with poor students, is that they are no different from those kids around us. Contrary to popular belief, the underprivileged accept advanced technology as readily as we do.

Young people adopt technology easily and use it the same way their peers in wealthy countries and sometimes even more consciously because their problems are much different from the first world ones. They use it to serve their basic needs, but also it becomes a window to the world and opportunities for them - a chance. Internet helps them discover their interests and passions, trying things out and learn about new professions they've never heard about.

Anyway, it is better to be connected in today's world, than not. Why? because of the same reasons why none of us here on HN would give up their connection.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Not sure about how it actually works. I couldn't find the information around how you actually 'give' internet to people? Do they use their own device, or do you provide a device as well? What happens when the funding for someone runs out?

<comment><AUTHOR> We work with the local ISP's and small Wifi operators. After installation families provide their subscriber codes and we set automatic transactions to those codes.

Yes we also provide devices which are funded either by individuals (via online donations) or corporate sponsors

First, we wanted donors to choose a student (according to their profiles) but this led to many challenges including the one you mentioned. So now donors can see profiles of every student waiting but they usually donate to the platform. We don't have one time donations. only monthly donations.

But still, we are at the MVP stage and figuring out what the right models could be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Make internet access cheaper by operating an efficient internet service provider, which can afford to offer access to the internet at a rate that more people can afford, in the places where it currently is too expensive.

<comment><AUTHOR> At the moment we work with local ISP's and Wifi operators who offer free installations and in some areas discounts on a monthly fee.

Btw on Wifi operators is willing to deploy infrastructure in areas where they considered not profitable before. As part of our partnership in September, they launch a new base station in a rural area of Georgia.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> > We believe that Internet access is a human right.

I disagree with this. This doesn't event make sense [EDIT: to me]. The internet is simply a very large network of private systems. You don't have a right to access this network, nor do you have a right to force someone to join this network.

If your "human rights" can be negated by the power going out, they are quite weak.

I am being nit-picky, but I just don't like this marketing tactic.

<comment><AUTHOR> Does it make more sense if we formulate it as "access to information" and not "Internet access"?

<comment><USER25> "We believe that everyone should have access to the internet."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> It says that you spend $7 a month to give people internet, and that you are giving internet access to 350 students. So, you are giving about $2,000 a month of value to students? It doesn't seem like this is a cost-effective charity if you have even a single employee. I think you would be better off giving the underprivileged people money directly, and letting them purchase their own internet access.

<comment><AUTHOR> At the moment we are bootstrapping and co-founders work for free, but we hope to become more effective after we reach some scale. We need to keep our team running not only to pay for the internet but for students identification (Working with schools and NGO's), Donor growth, community building, partner relations (ISP's and local Edtech partners who provide their services to our students for free) impact measurement, etc. At the moment a couple of corporate donors are covering those costs. I am not sure if I've answered your question

<comment><USER8> Why start with the students, instead of the 9/10 schools that lack internet access?

(From your website: "In the poorest countries, only 1 out of every 10 students has Internet access at school.")

<comment><AUTHOR> According to educators and researchers, there is a huge difference whether a student has access to the internet at home or in a public place where access is limited. In terms of creativity having internet access whenever you need it and how long you need it makes a meaningful difference. But this doesn't mean we only provide students with access. Sometimes we have projects where we connect educational community centers.

<comment><USER8> Thanks. Although I suspect more people might donate if they felt their donation helped 100 kids at a school, vs 1 kid at home. The "huge difference" might not be obvious, and I don't think it was in your FAQ.

It might be a fun experiment to let donors choose either school or individual.

<comment><AUTHOR> Although the studies show that people are more willing to give to a certain person (the story behind her/him) rather than a group. But yes, might be still worth testing. Thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Some links on your site are directed to the vanity 'charte.ge' but are still branded with 'giveinternet.org'. An example would be the 'Meet our team' link on this page: [https://giveinternet.org/en/faq](https://giveinternet.org/en/faq)

Perhaps, this was a previous project name and the links haven't been fixed?

<comment><AUTHOR> Oops, thanks. Will fix it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> The west had the same mindset with democracy.

What works in one society may not be best in others. I think countries should organically grow their information infrastructure in parallel with their physical infrastructure and economy.

That being said,China's belt road initiative is also building out internet infrastructure along the belt road's route.

</comment><comment><USER29> You asked for an opinion, so here it is...

Schools don't need computers or Internet to provide a breadth of education. I don't know if computer literacy should even be taught in schools considering there's so many different kinds of computers and they keep changing.

<comment><AUTHOR> We never target children at an early age. We focus only on High school-school age students, who need it most. As soon as we connect a student the whole family gets access to the internet. It becomes a family thing. You should see high-school students (age 16-18) living in refugee settlements and rural areas. They almost don't have access to any kind of education and information. No link to the worlds. Because of that, they have such a limited worldview. Internet helps them discover their interests and passions, trying things out and learn about new professions they've never heard about. Also, we run online mentorship programs to teach them how to use the internet in a proper way. (Here is the copy of my recent reply to another comment: Besides connecting students, we run an online mentorship program via Chat, online groups, sometimes phone/ video calls. First Students receive a link with a "welcome package"-list of most popular and relevant educational platforms which are available in the local language. We also partner with the local EdTech partners who provide their services for free for our students, so if anyone is interested in any platform we teach them how to use it and provide free access. We are also long term partners with Khan Academy and Code.org and actively promote these platforms to the students.

On a weekly basis, we post in an online group different educational content, free offers from our partners and education organizations who provide their courses for free (both online and offline), we post different scholarship opportunities, fellowships, programs, etc.

We plan to provide tailor-made educational content separately to each student according to their interests and challenges. Also thinking to test different models.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> The idea of giving is good but it is very hard to substain it over time. Pleople want to give but not in a constant basis and eventually stop. A better model is to join a profit basses organization with a nonprofit and work together to give.

<comment><USER31> I agree with you. As an African there is also another danger to receiving things, you stop working for them. You begin to expect these things as part of your life but in reality they only exist for as long as those giving have enough money or generosity. I am not saying people shouldn't give but it is a good idea to be aware of some of the long term effects of giving and being a receiver.

<comment><AUTHOR> I also think we should be conscious in giving. but as Chinese proverb says: Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

So we think that by giving internet connection we don't just give certain things. We try to bring an environment where people can find their passions and interests, discover professions, try out things, leave and try another, acquire relevant information, etc. Internet might be a huge step towards equality of opportunity.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Do you have plans to cover elsewhere than Georgia?

Terms like "Russian occupation" are loaded. The Abkhaz certainly don't feel Georgian, and it was Saakachvili who shelled them first (albeit after a string of Russian provocations).

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, we do plan to expand in the middle east and African countries by partnering with the partners on the ground.

Regarding the political issue, I'd rather don't step into these discussions as this thread has another purpose. The fact is Georgia has 250K IDP's (Internally displaced people) in the country not able to go back to their homes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Look at where money is parked around the world, and you have your answer.

</comment><comment><USER34> Improve the global economy especially through more free trade and more migration. That will help more people afford everything, not just the internet.

There's other solutions too, like reducing corruption and cost of doing business in developing countries. But there's little westerners can do to implement those solutions. Trade and immigration are things western nations have control over.

</comment><comment><USER35> In this era, I am no longer convinced that the internet is such a good thing.

</comment><comment><USER36> Better idea... give out AOL CD's.

<comment><USER9> Or Encarta CDs perhaps...

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20739629](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20739629)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Perhaps I'm the asshole here, but until internet companies feet are really held to the fire on pricing, I don't feel like giving is going to make a substantial difference. If suddenly the money becomes available to sponsor millions of people's internet, the price of the internet will magically jump 50-500% in cost.

Additionally, while we want to magically give internet to all nations and I think that is a wonderful gesture, it seems to me that the very best thing we can do for the whole of mankind is to improve the impulse control of every single person alive today. With proper impulse control comes the ability to want to be educated and make a difference. Internet certainly makes it possible to become more educated, but without proper impulse control I'm afraid it would all be wasted on uselessness. I say this as someone that has themselves looked at way too many cat pictures and Netflix videos. Also the internet seems to be awash with types of vendors that are trying their very best to remove the impulse control of others. I don't think giving Candy Crush to the entirety of any continent is going to benefit if impulse control is the issue that is causing them the most struggle. Perhaps we should better focus on giving people the types of applications and access that are scientifically proven to improve lives? Just a thought.

<comment><AUTHOR> The prices for internet connection are much cheaper in developing countries 10-15 USD and we work with local ISP's and small Wifi operators where they provide free installations and some operators provide discounts on monthly fees.

Regarding your second question I am copying my answer from a post below:

Besides connecting students, we run an online mentorship program via Chat, online groups, sometimes phone/ video calls. First Students receive a link with a "welcome package"-list of most popular and relevant educational platforms which are available in the local language. We also partner with the local EdTech partners who provide their services for free for our students, so if anyone is interested in any platform we teach them how to use it and provide free access. We are also long term partners with Khan Academy and Code.org and actively promote these platforms to the students.

On a weekly basis, we post in an online group different educational content, free offers from our partners and education organizations who provide their courses for free (both online and offline), we post different scholarship opportunities, fellowships, programs, etc.

We plan to provide tailor-made educational content separately to each student according to their interests and challenges. Also thinking to test different models.

At some point, I am not sure yet how can we maintain this educational part on a bigger scale. Hopefully through partners on the ground. But still, we believe that since we all take internet connection for granted and at the same time utilize it for the good of ourselves (not always of course), others have the same right to do it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> My wife started a school/community center is Africa and we are one of the only places in town with computers and internet you can use for free. It was a rare occasion indeed that anyone wanted to do anything except watch youtube videos. Now that we banned youtube, people honestly aren't really that interested.

I'm not saying internet is bad or whatever, it's just that it's not going to change people's lives without a lot of groundwork first. Educating people so they have questions to ask, or things to produce, or knowledge to acquire. We both really thought having free internet access was going to be a paradigm shift for these kids, but unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be making much of a tangible difference at all. You could make the argument (I personally don't), that it has actually made things worse.

<comment><USER9> > Now that we banned youtube

That's a pity. YouTube is a treasure of awesome educational videos, better than any school can be. If only I had YouTube when I was a schoolboy... Cool people explain math (and other subjects) I could never understand but grok instantly this way. I can also hardly imagine a better media spreading cultural progress. It also promotes artistic expression, incl in poor people - have you seen the post about african teens making short scifi movies? If I had to choose just one website to give everybody on Earth access to that would be YouTube.

Nevertheless narrow content kind focus can be a problem - if somebody watches nothing but stupid/weird stuff (it may be good to have this kind of fun occasionally but one should not focus on this too much) and is suggested more and more videos of the same kind this can hardly be beneficial. Perhaps Google should invent a solution to this problem. E.g. showing some educational videos among recommendations regardless to what kind of videos you watch.

<comment><USER39> > if somebody watches nothing but stupid/weird stuff

the issue with that, is what counts as stupid/weird? Is watching vlogs stupid/weird? Is watching people like Logan Paul, weird or stupid? One could argue that you could actually learn alot from people like Logan Paul, about what to do and what not to do.

Also, people can learn things from the unlikeliest of sources.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> You might be starting with the wrong question. You are assuming internet access is a good thing and that extending its supply will be best for everyone. Consider the following:

\- the internet makes people dumber (low attention spans, group think, advertising driven content, addictive behaviors promoted, etc)

\- the internet makes us consumers instead of creators

\- the internet makes people depressed and anxious

\- the internet causes around 5% of global GHG emissions

\- internet enhances ability for total monitoring and censoring of speech

\- internet creates centralized global tech monopolies on information flow and data

\- extensive global networks put society at increased risk of total collapse

What are the benefits and do they really outweigh the negatives? Can the benefits be accomplished through other means? Just make sure you're comfortable with possibly making people's lives worse.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you think we, those who are connected, should give up our internet connections? If not should we leave the rest of the world's population without it?

<comment><USER21> No. I'm addicted.</comment></comment></comment>


Jacob Goldman, Xerox Lab Founder, Dies - <AUTHOR> http://mashable.com/2011/12/23/jacob-goldman-xerox-parc-founder-dies/

<comment><USER2> I interviewed him in 2003. He was a real Macintosh fan.

[http://brianstorms.com/2011/12/xeroxs-jack-goldman-mac- fanat...](http://brianstorms.com/2011/12/xeroxs-jack-goldman-mac-fanatic.html)

The formative history of PARC is not all as it seems. I spoke with Jack Goldman and George Pake, both before they died, and verified some interesting things about how PARC came about that are not in any of the Xerox PARC history books (Goldman intended to keep it a secret and then I came along and figured it out).

<comment><USER3> Your book-in-progress looks interesting. Hoping you hit the 2012 publication target.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Worthy of a black bar, pg?

<comment><USER5> The amount of tech Xerox PARC gave to the world is astounding, celebrating the man that founded it seems like something HN should be proud to do.</comment></comment>


Vulkan: Scaling to multiple threads – Live stream, Thursday Nov 19 @ 4pm GMT - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ub6iVThro <comment><AUTHOR> This live stream will be broadcast on Thursday November 19 at 4pm GMT. Description follows:

Most CPUs today come in multicore configurations, and applications uses software multi-threading to take advantage of this capability.

This presentation will explain some of the ways Vulkan enables software multi- threaded scaling, and how this might be used.

Presenting will be Tobias Hector, Software Design Engineer for Vulkan and OpenGL ES, Imagination Technologies</comment>


Facebook Workplace – a scary place - <AUTHOR> https://www.facebook.com/workplace/ <comment><USER2> What is scary about it? We use it at work (I managed to get us into the beta programme) and it's pretty useful and well conceived.</comment>


Bloom Filters - <AUTHOR> http://www.jasondavies.com/bloomfilter/

<comment><USER2> I actually implemented a bloom filter once to audit passwords in the 'real- world'.

We had a user who wanted a password audit, but who refused to provide password hashes. He insisted the hashes were too sensitive to give to anyone outside his organization.

So we wrote the bloom filter program and showed him how to run it. Its output was a... bloom filter (a C++ std::bitset<>.to_string()) that we could take and compare against known common hashes. Easy to compress. He liked the fact that it was just ones and zeros. No hashes were given to us. Just a string of ones and zeros. Not that there's a difference really.

Anyway, we took his filter and compared it to known weak hashes and when any known weak hash matched, we added that to another filter that we created and sent that back to him and he would make one final pass (using the new filter) to show the weak user name, password, etc.

No password hashes were ever exchanged and it worked OK. We uncovered many weak passwords. He seemed happy. However, the test/audit was not as thorough as I would have liked. You're limited without hashes and this approach is pre- compute intensive.

So there you have it. Bloom filters in the wild and in use. I still have the code someplace. All standard C++ and Crypto++.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's an awesome story. Thank you for sharing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Bloom filters and genetic algorithms seem to be subjects of perennial tutorial articles on Hacker News and /r/programming. They're easy enough to understand with a background in the classically-taught data structures and algorithms. Yet, they're usually not covered in many courses, so they're still novel.

</comment><comment><USER4> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuTGoFYjZs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SuTGoFYjZs)

Linked is an excellent video talking about bloom filters. Done is a slightly comical style. Very informative, slightly funny.

Author's Site is Cube-drone.com a rather amusing comic about the day-to-day life of a java developer form the perspective of a java developer.

<comment><USER5> Thanks for linking the authors site! I loved his youtube videos, but didn't know he also does web comics.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Bloom filters seem like the big thing to write blog posts about now.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bloom+filter#!/story/forever/0/blo...](https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bloom+filter#!/story/forever/0/bloom%20filter)

<comment><USER7> They pop up over and over again. The first wave of popularity I'm old enough to remember was back in '04 [0]

[0] [http://www.perl.com/pub/2004/04/08/bloom_filters.html](http://www.perl.com/pub/2004/04/08/bloom_filters.html)</comment></comment>


How Tiffany moved 114k gems without getting robbed - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/nyregion/tiffanys-store-closing.html <comment><USER2> I suspect this is a native ad. In the jewelry world, people move massive amounts of jewels in and out of tuscon arizona during the largest show every year. They come from around the world. Tiffanys on the other hand, moved it 50 feet. Major players make multi million dollar deals in Tuscon. Does stuff get stolen occasionally? Yes. Usually semi precious.

<comment><USER3> The article was frustrating to read. Most of it is unrelated to the move and instead talks about things Tiffany's did recently.

100% a paid ad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > that weighs as much as a bullet

No clue how heavy that is. And don't bullets come in a range of sizes?

<comment><USER5> A typical bullet weighs about 8 grams. And usually range from about 4-16 grams.

<comment><USER6> A .22 can weigh less than 1.5 grams. But it is ridiculous regardless to compare weight of a ring to something most people don't really know the weight of and that something that seems light as is.

<comment><USER7> In the US, a bullet's notional size and weight is perhaps more familiar than grams (or any metric unit, really). In any case, I sense there was a subtle pun in that its cost is liable to kill the financial livelihood of most.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Ha, publicly paid police officers making sure an office move of a private company goes well.

<comment><USER9> They'd be the one investigating a high profile case if anything went wrong, paying huge overtime and having everyone breathing down their necks... why wouldn't you want them to work on a preventative / preactive approach to security at given those stakes? It could have saved the tax payer millions.

<comment><USER6> They could be preventing murders in the South Bronx. Aren't lives more valuable? Tiffany has enough funds to cover security of moving 50 feet.

<comment><USER10> NYC murder rates are at all time lows. They _are_ preventing murders in the South Bronx.

<comment><USER11> Is it police work that's lowering the murder rate? Or is it something else like a demographic shift?

<comment><USER10> I'm sure it's a lot of things. I'm just saying that whatever minor resources spent on securing moving some jewelry weren't taking away from larger police priorities.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Mirror: [https://archive.li/xVdFy](https://archive.li/xVdFy)

</comment><comment><USER13> Another paid ad masquarading as news. Shame on you NYT.

</comment><comment><USER14> Missed opportunity to write about transferring the jewels in porta-johns.

</comment><comment><USER15> > dozens of security officers

So guns. Lots of guns.

#Wow

<comment><USER16> This comment adds no value to the discussion.

<comment><USER15> There's nothing to discuss. It's a non-story.

"Jewelery store employs lots of people with guns to keep it's stock safe."

Unless you want to discuss how guns do/don't actually make things safer.

<comment><USER16> I prefer to read comments that add value or substance to the posted article. Sarcasm doesn't accomplish this in most cases.

<comment><USER17> As a fellow lover of value and substance, I appreciate comments that point out that the original article has no value or substance. It saves time. Sarcasm is merely a way to add levity to this odious but necessary task.

<comment><USER14> I agree, but I don't think the "lots of guns, wow" comment adds anything.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Drone sets world record for lifting 134 pounds over 37 seconds - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/20/drone-sets-a-record-for-carrying-the-heaviest-cargo-ever/ <comment><AUTHOR> I wonder if this relies on ground-effect for lift?

Didn't someone make a drone that could carry a person?

And then there is the "hoverboard" that self-balance and carry a person, so it is practically a drone if someone just added a remote - though it doesn't do altitude.

Ha, check out the human-sized drone at the bottom of the article:

[http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/06/184-delivery-drone-for- pe...](http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/06/184-delivery-drone-for-people/)

Can it still be called a drone when there is a human onboard piloting it? I guess not.</comment>


Ruby is beautiful (but I'm moving to Python) - <AUTHOR> http://wit.io/posts/ruby-is-beautiful-but-im-moving-to-python <comment><USER2> I wrote this article almost a year ago as a tribute to my favorite language at the time. (That title now belongs to Clojure.) It feels like if you want to do scientific computing in Ruby, you're met with obstacles at every turn, but with Python, you're greeted with open arms and tested libraries. That could change (and I'm beginning work on a stats library for Ruby), but it will take time. This was partially a call to action to the Ruby community to start thinking about more than Web protocols and NoSQL databases.

For a more thoughtful comparison, feel free to check out my followup posts.

<comment><USER3> What is the state of Incantr (or something like that was the name)? A Scientific Computing framework for Clojure.

<comment><USER4> For Clojure, there's also Clojuratica: <[http://clojuratica.weebly.com/>](http://clojuratica.weebly.com/>), which lets you trade data between Clojure and Mathematica seamlessly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I never really understood the drama around switching tools. Picking the right one for the job is the first thing you should do.

<comment><USER6> From "Don't Call Yourself A Programmer..."[0] recently seen on the front page:

 _Many asked how to know what programming language or stack to study. It doesn't matter. There you go._

That's how I feel about this post -- it doesn't matter. The points he raises -- either as complaint or as praise -- seem shallow. It's not a very sophisticated critique of anything.

[0]: [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a- pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

<comment><USER7> I did something recently I wish I did years ago, I picked up a second language for personal projects. Which just so happened to be python, but I agree it probably doesn't matter, but from my experience don't use the same language you use at work everyday.

I'm not sure if I'm alone but I spend WAY to much time in front of my computer. 8-10 hours a day working, and then I often use my laptop casually to write stuff at night in front of the TV.

There came a point several years ago where I became disgusted with Windows. Not so much Microsoft, more enterprise infrastructure teams. But the negativity flowed over to personal use. So I brought a mac for personal use, I wanted the disconnect between work and fun. Windows for me is over, I'll never have another Windows machine in my house... in fact it will mainly be appliances for me... and by that I mean Apple products.

For a long time I plugged on using mono, but I lost the drive to program it just wasn't fun anymore. I'd get 80-90% of the way through a project and just hate finishing it. As soon as the fun exploration bit was over and I had to spend time aligning pixels or whatever it just felt like work. I hated it.

By pure chance I started using python to show my unskilled friend some ideas. He could follow python without much guidance, C# confused him. Since then I've grown to enjoy programming in the evensong again. I'm not sure if its the same disconnect I needed between work/fun or what... but its working.

Especially the ability to sit with my macbook, feet up on lazy chair, half watching TV, terminal open testing bits and pieces, IDE doing the thinking for me (PyCharm gets a thumbs up from me), and a nice hassle free (and inspectable) stack. The casual nature of python just seems to click perfectly with my mood in the evenings.

So theres my advice for languages, separate work and fun. Don't use the same stack for enjoyment as you do for stress endeavors.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What he says about higher order functions rings very true for me. I learned Python before Ruby, and while I love using both languages, in Ruby I really learned for the first time the power of higher order functions because they are thrown in your face when using it. They are everywhere in the standard library and the syntax makes them very convenient to read and write. They are idiomatic Ruby.

Once I learned Ruby, I started using higher order functions in other languages. Learning Ruby changed the way I wrote Python. Learning Ruby even changed the way I wrote Java! While I code mostly in Python, C#, and a little Racket these days, I'll always remember Ruby fondly for changing the way I thought about coding.

As a side note, The other thing Ruby opened my eyes to was metaprogramming. Ruby's metaprogramming facilities are dead simple compared to Python's, which I feel changed practically every release from 2.2 onward. Of course the Lisps take the cake when it comes to code generation, but Ruby's ability to easily manipulate symbol tables is a nice easy way to start wrapping your head around the idea of code that generates code if your brain has already gotten used to C-style syntax and finds homoiconic s-expression-based languages a little strange.

<comment><USER9> > Ruby's metaprogramming facilities are dead simple compared to Python's

I actually have the opposite experience, Ruby's eigenclasses and the _self_ way to handle them to create class methods feels convoluted and shoehorning whereas __metaclass__ and the way you inherit of Class feels straightforward to me. The same goes for modules extending/including behaviors versus sane multiple inheritance combined with metaclasses and the way you manipulate methods and functions just assigning them as attributes, without any need for three handfuls of helper methods. Ruby's approach of development is so pervasive that I (and not only me) always have to check if I won't be tripping on someone else's wires. When I tell that, the Ruby crowd shouts at me that Ruby monkey-patching is safe! So let's make it safer[1]! It honestly feels like needless complexity, over-engineering, or jumping through more hoops.

I know both approaches quite well but I can't help but think that the Python approach just fits in, like a self-solving Tetris, whereas Ruby feels like I constantly need to solve puzzles. Granted it's fun when you learn the language, drawing a picture of where classes, instances and eigenclasses of each fit, but when you want to be productive you just want it to flow, not solve another damn puzzle of how I can do this smartly so that things don't end up making galaxies collide.

PS: don't get me wrong, I actually love both languages, but while it's love- love with Python, it's actually love-hate with Ruby.

[1] [http://yehudakatz.com/2010/11/30/ruby-2-0-refinements-in- pra...](http://yehudakatz.com/2010/11/30/ruby-2-0-refinements-in-practice/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The follow up <http://wit.io/posts/the-ugliness-of-python> is in my opinion, more interesting. I always find it funny how different people think different languages are ugly.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, I have the opposite reaction. I think python is very elegant, and I really appreciate it's "one and only one way" philosophy, as opposed to ruby's "you are a special snowflake" approach.

It really can be just a matter of preference, though. Python and Ruby are so, so, so similar, that ultimately I find flamewars between them to be tiring at best.

<comment><USER12> Characterizing the Ruby philosophy as "you are a special snowflake" is, well, starting a flamewar

<comment><USER11> Honest question, how would you characterize it?

<comment><USER13> TMTOWTDI.

Ruby, for all the problems it can cause, gives you. More than one way to solve a problem. Yes, it sometimes makes it harder to dive into other's code but I happen to enjoy the expressiveness.

Mind you I love some of the things about python too. Namespacing being one of the primary ones. Another is that, short of advances pythonfu (like django does), I can usually pick up someone else's code and dive right in.

Python has amazing access to mathematical and scientific libraries as mentioned. However with ruby, I would punt to the Java ecosystem via JRuby if I needed that.

It's a lot like design patterns. Some patterns don't fit in all languagea but that's usually a case of the language itself giving you another way. Mixins in ruby are a good example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _In Ruby, everything is an object and responds to messages. And it turns out that we can ask a number if it's even or odd. In other words, numbers have our criterion function built in, and we don't have to define it at all._

I absolutely hate this. In fact, I'm not a huge believer in object-oriented programming in general.

<rant>

        even?

Is not an operation that integers perform. Integers do not contain methods -- they are data. even? is _function_ that operates on integers. Integer is a type. Objects are object types. An object which contains an integer is an object-integer type. An object-integer type is _not_ the same as the integer type. Why do we constantly feel the need to wedge objects into everything in existence when often what we really need are algebraic data types, functions, and namespacing/modules?

</rant>

As you can tell, I like the ML family.

<comment><USER15> Your rant isn't an argument, it's an opinion. I can just as well say integers are objects like any other and even? makes perfect sense as a method on them because that's the entire point of objects in the first place, binding state and behavior together into a single smarter package because it's a convent method of organizing code.

<comment><USER14> I agree 100% that it is my opinion. I would wager that most rants are opinions.

As far as this being the point of objects -- I see no state. I see no behavior. All I see is a function which maps the set of integers to booleans. That's it. It's just a function. The only reason we need packaging or modules at all is to prevent name collisions and importing the world.

<comment><USER15> The integer is state, deciding if it's odd or even is behavior. Yes, it's a query method, but it's a good one. The only reason we need objects is to make programming convenient. I don't want my namespace polluted by a free floating function named even?/odd? when it can be restricted to the only type it cares about by being bound to it.

In some strictly ease of use sense, _object.function()_ is better than _function(object)_ because it better helps me organize and scope my code; I don't have to worry about function name clashes because every instance is essentially a module for those functions.

My tools also work better when they can see I'm asking what methods are on integer rather than just show me all functions visible to me right now. It's easier to say hey Integer, what can you do rather than hey world, what works with integers.

If you can only see functions, integers, and booleans and you can't realize those are all themselves perfectly good objects, then that's a failure of your imagination. Me, I like my functions, methods, booleans, integers, and all other types being objects because it's damn useful and damn convenient in making my day to day life easier.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I expected a nice article going back and forth debating pros and cons. Really you argued here that Ruby is better than Java, and then at the end say -- oh and Python has more Science packages so I'm switching.

You let me down buddy. I was expecting more thought, less fluff.

<comment><USER17> This is an older post, not sure the OP is the author. I agree the title is a big overstatement. Basically boils down to "I'm going to learn a new tool that I think does X better".

I did like the post though, the follow is good too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> TL;DR: Ruby has no equivalent to SciPy, hence the need to switch. Probably a fair point :-(

</comment><comment><USER18> You are right, Python package management is terrible. Even using an OS package manager (on Mac) like Ports or Brew it's still a nightmare.

The other problem is fragmentation. This package requires python 2.5, that one wants python 2.6, and that one wants python 3.1 but _might_ me ok for python 3.2.

It's just a mess. And confusing.

Not to mention, even installing python on Mac can be a nightmare. One piece of advice, if you are going to use python on a mac get py-virtualenv (<http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv>). It's as good as rvm (in ruby) and will save your life.

I miss GEM terribly.

But despite the shortcomings (maddness) I still LOVE python. :)

</comment><comment><USER19> Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1947723>

OP appears to have changed domains.

<comment><USER2> I did, sorry that messed up the HN dupe filter. I git three-letter domains much more than ones inspired by sentences :)

<comment><USER2> s/git/dig/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Who is the article (at least the first half of it) aimed at?

Are there any Java developers who still haven't dabbled with dynamic languages _but_ could still be convinced to?

I imagine that those who will already have done, and the rest will never touch any language not in the "enterprise" class (Java, C#, C++, COBOL etc.)

<comment><USER21> I don't see anything suddenly more compelling about Python (which I've always liked, at least among imperative languages) but I for one was pretty startled to learn that V8 was already within 2-3x the cost of JVM bytecode. That can make server-side Javascript feasible for work where Python or Ruby would need an order of magnitude more rack units today.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Congratulations! The most silly article a read today. Comparing languages by the length of code is something an amateur would do, but not a professional.

Want to filter list with an "ad-hoc" function in Java? Use

Collections2.filter(list, new Predicate<Integer>() { public boolean apply(Integer i) { return i % 2 == 0; } })

from the Guava library. To read a file I use

Utils.getFileContent("filename")

from my library.

You would say, that the Java verbosity is outsourced to external libraries — but so it is in Ruby as well. The only difference is that Ruby contains more libraries than Java. But does it count in a development of a huge _professional_ project? NO. (You write the libraries once and use the package everywhere.) Does it count in script writing? Yes. But Java wasn't designed for script writing, so please please don't compare a fork and a spoon.

</comment><comment><USER12> Seems like it would be a huge opportunity for people to start creating these science Ruby gems.

Not my field, personally...

<comment><USER23> It's been tried before. mum, Numerical Ruby and SciRuby were all attempts.

The fundamental issue I believe they all had is lack of community. There is a quite large community of folks using Python for scientific computing. Many are not professional developers but rather scientists / engineers who aren't as open to jumping around to different languages as a developer would be.

These issues combined with the fact that Ruby is mostly pigeon-holed as a web only language would make replicating the community that the NumPy/SciPy/matplotlib stack enjoys almost impossible.

It also doesn't help that such capability have to be implemented as C extensions due to performance requirements. This greatly limits the number of developers that would/could work on such a project.

<comment><USER12> These kinds of projects can take years to take hold; you can't expect people to just all switch right away. Blog posts like this just need to be commented on with a link to those libraries. Eventually some big lecture, class or project will use one of those libraries and a whole new group of people will supplement the community. This doesn't just go for Ruby, it applies to any language

Ruby performance in general is getting much better and when C extensions are necessary (as they often are in any high level language) libraries like ruby- ffi have taken a lot of the pain out of that process.

<comment><USER24> There's more inertia here than you may be thinking. See this recent HN headliner about the difficulty of getting the NumPy/SciPy community to merely move from CPython to PyPy: [http://technicaldiscovery.blogspot.com/2011/10/thoughts- on-p...](http://technicaldiscovery.blogspot.com/2011/10/thoughts-on-porting- numpy-to-pypy.html)

If _that's_ a challenge, good luck getting a lot of NotProgrammers to move to a completely different language.

Besides, if I may be blunt, who in Rubyland cares if these guys are on Python? By and large, these people are on an island. They are optimizing for things you pretty much don't care about, for programming styles you're not using, for libraries you've barely heard of. Trying to entice them off of Python onto Ruby is a waste of time for everybody. The Ruby community would at best get nothing, at worst net pain of supporting a lot of newbies, and the scientists would incur the horrifying overhead of a language shift for the closest thing to a sidegrade available in the set of the top 20-ish language. If they were going to do that they probably shouldn't be going for Ruby, they should probably be going for Haskell or OCaml, both languages for which I could outline actual advantages to the scientists for the pain of the switch (though probably not enough to justify the switch).

<comment><USER12> You make good points, they're not blunt. I've just read the same basic blog post many times complaining that there's no SciPy in Ruby. Again, I'm not in the sciences so I'm out of my element talking about it. I'm just trying to make the simple point that there does seem to be people out there wanting science libraries for Ruby

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> <http://sciruby.com> :D

<comment><USER26> I don't know whether that qualifies as number crunching, but I am using Ruby for computer vision.

<http://www.wedesoft.demon.co.uk/hornetseye-api/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> tldr: He wants a couple science python library and 'doesn't feel like porting them in ruby' (to take his wording).</comment>


History of Information - <AUTHOR> http://historyofinformation.com <comment><AUTHOR> From 2,800,000 BCE to the present.

Recommended to me by @dredmorbius

</comment><comment><USER2> I came to know about this some months ago but I forgot...Thanks anyways!</comment>


Scan business cards into more than 250 apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.fullcontact.com/cardreader/integrations/

<comment><USER2> I love what Zapier has done for integrating services. Keep it up guys.

<comment><USER3> Wrong company... Or am I missing some connection?

<comment><USER4> FullContact's mobile apps are using Zapier to connect to most of the apps listed on this page.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Big shoutout to Travis @ FullContact for making this happen. Lots of work over the past few months.

I love the use case "When I scan a business card, automatically invite them on LinkedIn to connect". Then I can toss the card guilty free.

</comment><comment><USER5> CardMunch originally used real-people too. Don't know what happened when they moved to LinkedIn (and their latest demise).

How does your service compare to CardMunch's replacement with EverNote?

<comment><USER6> CardMunch still (for the next few days anyway) uses real people. That didn't change when the company moved under LinkedIn. Unfortunately there was an opportunity there that was never really seized.

As for how we compare? That's a matter of personal preference.

While I like Evernote a lot, and use it daily, it's just not where I want to store my contacts. Nothing about that makes sense to me. My contacts need to be where they're the most accessible, from the device that I'm going to use to get in touch with them.

I don't use a CRM, but if I did, I'd want to scan cards into it because that's where it makes sense for those contacts to live. I'd want to segment them and I'd want to pull them into my phone when I needed them. None of these things are easy to do when you use Evernote as your repository. It's great for being your "second brain", but not so great for being your phone book.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Just tried this out. I could see this being an app that I would use. Only negative (not an app negative) is in the beginning getting all of them scanned in. I have a few 100 biz cards and wouldn't mind having them stored digitally.

The transcribing aspect looks interesting. I am still waiting for my first few to process but very curious to see how their OCR works out.

<comment><USER6> The big thing to mention here is that we don't use OCR, we use real people. It's the main differentiator (aside from the Zapier integration) between Card Reader and just about every other alternative. Yes, it's slower, but it's also incredibly accurate. And really, when was the last time that you scanned in a business card and needed the information from it 20 seconds later?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Cool. I use CamCard for Android - you can choose where to store your contact information, but most likely not as many options as this.

</comment><comment><USER9> I use scanbizcards. It does OCR and all, doesn't NEED to add to your adress book, and I just love the coverflow view :)

<comment><USER10> Why does it need to add your address book?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> "This app is incompatible with all of your devices." I have a Nexus 4 and Nexus 7. Not exactly weird hardware.

<comment><USER6> Hey Andreas, I figured out what's going on.

Because we use real people to transcribe the cards, we found that we were having trouble with accuracy when the cards are in languages other than English. As such, we flagged the app to countries that have English the primary language.

As we scale the app, we're going to enable more countries. But right now we wanted to make sure that we're providing the best possible experience, even if that means to a smaller base of users.

Very sorry for the inconvenience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> People use business cards?</comment>


Signal iOS Device Transfer - <AUTHOR> https://signal.org/blog/ios-device-transfer/ <comment><USER2> Does anyone know if this works if you change your phone number? The support article [1] still says you'll lose your history in that case, but the scenario mentioned in the blog post (someone else scanning the QR code) seems to imply that the transfer doesn't require both devices to be registered to the same number.

[1]: [https://support.signal.org/hc/en- us/articles/360007062012-Ne...](https://support.signal.org/hc/en- us/articles/360007062012-New-Number-or-New-Phone)</comment>


Increase Signups by Adding Video to Your Page - <AUTHOR> http://www.abtests.com/test/38004/landing-for-geomoto <comment><USER2> The heading is rather misleading. It actually should say "Some site somewhere increased sign-ups by adding video to their page. You may or may not get the same effect, depending on a vast myriad of factors." But I guess that's not very catchy is it.

<comment> brown9-2 I seem to remember a very similar posting from abtests.com last week. I would hope that people don't expect that you can magically copy the results of someone else's A/B test to your own domain.

<comment><USER3> I am sure they do. Ever since the "You should follow me on twitter" post (<http://www.abtests.com/test/19013/other-for-dustin-curtis>), I see that phrase everywhere.

It could just be that I am noticing the phrase since I read about it, but it would be a strange coincidence to see the exact wording so often.

<comment><USER4> I believe the guys at ABTests.com would encourage readers to consider the results on the site, to evaluate whether or not running a similar test would make sense for their own site, to then run a test, and to then post the results at ABTests.com. _Everyone_ would benefit from the same test running on multiple sites, to see whether the results are universal or not.

I'm sure they don't think that a featured test would result in identical results on a different site. But opening up data like this for peer review and replication is a good thing.

Edit: Oh. dcancel said as much, just above this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Is the form for trials or paid customers? Seems the form is for trials which effects only the # of trials which was only marginally higher. What is the process to convert from trials to paid and is the video really the cause in the massive jump?

There were also other small subtle changes like the addition of "Request Instant Price Quote" headline etc.

<comment><USER6> Those small changes can be significant.

A/B tests need to be as specific to one adjustment as possible.

I've noticed flaws like this many times on ABtests.com. But I guess they are like any war stories, its the overall idea that counts not the details.

<comment><AUTHOR> Appreciate the feedback. Would love to make our site better, any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

What are the primary flaws you're seeing?

<comment><USER6> I was referring to the accuracy of the test results on abtests.com in general not the site in the link. Many of the A/B examples had multiple changes to the site but only noted one as making a difference.

In your case adding a headline to the form was overlooked.

You were using form submissions as a metric from what I can tell. So changes specifically to the signup form itself (such as the header) is likely to have as much of an impact as the video.

Did you track how many people watched the video then signed up as a metric? That may be more telling.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The Obama people, in a much, much bigger test, found that having a video on their splash page decreased signups.

<comment><USER8> Is this (esp the embedded video) the reference for your statement? [http://websiteoptimizer.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-video- how-w...](http://websiteoptimizer.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-video-how-we-used- data-to-win.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> How was the testing done? Every other pageview delivered over a 7 day period had the video?

If you tested by running one for 7 days and the other for 7 days, there are numerous other possible factors. Even the comparison of Friday versus Saturday traffic could have enough variation on a small sample to skew results. Internet congestion might have slowed the site down during one test, awareness might predispose people to be more likely to convert beyond trial or even the fact that the video version renders more quickly to the surfer proving that html design and page render time may have been the deciding factor. I didn't see any mention on the site how the trial was actually conducted, but, based on the other test results, I don't see enough isolation of variables to decidedly say the video was the sole factor.

</comment><comment><USER10> The lesson in A/B testing isn't to find magic bullets in other people's results. It's to actually _do_ A/B testing. If you could generalize from other people's results, you could just catalog what works and be done. It doesn't work that way.

</comment><comment><USER11> This is especially interesting for me (because normally I am put off by video), do you think is because the video highlighted the installation procedure better or do you think generally people prefer video?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I think it was because the video helped the user understand the product better. All about education.</comment>


U.S. wants to attract hackers to public sector - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/technology/united-states-wants-to-attract-hackers-to-public-sector.html

<comment><USER2> The U.S government is going to have a tough time recruiting hackers if they keep asserting their right to assassinate them.

</comment><comment><USER3> I keep seeing people talking about this, but from my limited experience (< 1yr) working in the public sector, government work is not very hacker friendly. Hacker culture tends to value experience over traditional schooling, which doesn't jive well the public sector. Hackers culture tends to move fast, and get things done quickly, and government work tends to be bureaucratic and sometimes even political (though usually on a small scale).

<comment> daniel-cussen Yes, but at the same time, if the government does a few things to isolate the hackers from it, it could have its upsides. If the NSA is any indication, it can be done.</comment></comment>


An NBA Superstar with No Stats (2009) - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all <comment><USER2> Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=481392>

I voted it up anyway, that's how much I like this article. After reading this comment thread <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=481557> on that page, I decided to read Moneyball, and it was one of the most riveting books I've read.

Thanks, HN.

</comment><comment><USER3> For those who like to highlight text as you read, you can shut down the nytimes' messing with you, by adblocking all its js, from all its servers - and reloading. This filter worked:

        http://*.nytimes.com/**/*.js

<comment><USER4> The file responsible for the annoying search feature is altClickToSearch.js. Here's my filter:

      ||nytimes.com/js/*/altClickToSearch.js

<comment><USER3> I went to the trouble of finding the offending js a while back, but some aspect of its URL must have changed (server? directory? depth? name?), because the filter stopped working. So now I nuke everything; the loss of js hasn't harmed the text yet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't even like sports but this article had me glued to my monitor at 4:48 am.

<comment><USER6> Really? I don't like sport and I found I couldn't understand it at all.

For instance, you have to read to paragraph 4 to find out that "Houston" is the same team as "The Rockets". I never quite figured out whether Battier and Ming are on the same team.

And "The game drew a huge national television audience, which followed Bryant for his 47 miserable minutes: he shot 11 of 33 from the field and scored 24 points." -- I have no idea what that means or whether it's a lot.

<comment><USER7> There is a difference between "not liking" sports and not knowing anything about sports. Not that I fault you for it, obviously, this article assumes the reader has some basic understanding of the NBA and the rules of basketball.

<comment><USER8> > There is a difference between "not liking" sports and not knowing anything > about sports.

Yes, and that's even an argument in favour of explaining more. E.g. I like some sports, but I don't know anything about basketball. (It's just not a big sport where I come from.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The use of easy-to-obtain metrics with little or no predictive value has interesting parallels in all sorts of places.

<comment><USER10> "The use of easy-to-obtain metrics with little or no predictive value has interesting parallels in all sorts of places."

I was just wondering if there were parallels for this in programming.

The obvious might be the various approaches and "methodologies" to programmer or team productivity based on dubious or non-existent hard data.

But I'm more wondering if there are tools or techniques that don't get any accolades (like, say, MVC or TDD or the framework of the week) but have a peculiar synergistic effect that ends up providing significant (and possibly counterintuitive) value.

What's the "Shane Battier" of software development practices?

And how would you know?

<comment><USER11> I'd say good design. Refactoring has known benefits, but good design is similar to refactoring while skipping the middle step of having a cruddy design to start with. Developers who tend to write better designed code may not be appreciated for it. Consider that better design often requires considerable forethought and may take longer to implement than a typical "first thing that comes to mind" satisficing type design.

Also, the lack of future bugs and lack of future difficulty in expanding and adapting good code may result in a lack of attention for that code (people may not appreciate its subtlety and elegance and merely think it solves an easy problem to start with).

The end result may be that the developer takes longer to resolve fewer bugs and implement fewer bits of functionality than other developers while the benefits of higher quality design and code might be largely invisible.

Discerning developers may be able to recognize and appreciate higher quality coders, but in environments with short-sighted or overly bureaucratic management I'm sure this sort of problem exists.

<comment><USER9> Trouble is, "good design" is pretty hard to quantify. It's much much harder to quantify than things like LOC, or whether this milestone or that was reached.

Another difference is that a basketball game has a definite, qualitative outcome. That, at least, can be measured. With software development you don't even have that luxury.

<comment><USER8> Did you mean, "a definite, [quantitative] outcome"?

<comment><USER9> Yes. Oops.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I enjoyed the article last time, and enjoyed re-reading it again. Here's a youtube video, if like me, you hadn't seen Battier play:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4aDM5d27_w>

</comment><comment><USER13> I've been noticing the same kind of play from Nicolas Batum over the last couple years: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Q4GVXGMlE>

</comment><comment><USER14> Extremely long, but definitely worth the read.

<comment><USER15> It's hard to go wrong with anything written by Michael Lewis.

<comment><USER16> Actually, it is. Mr. Lewis can spin a fine yarn, but as with much of his first major work (Liar's Poker), a good deal of detail, and outright truth, is sacrificed to back-up the original thesis and offer a more compelling reader narrative.

With hindsight, and much more data, long-term trending analysis of the Sabre- metrics examples given in Moneyball have not correlated with increased team, or even individual, performance in baseball.

Basketball is an entirely different kind of animal. The data miner in me looks forward to seeing if this sort of analysis will offer genuinely useful predictive performance models this sport.

<comment><USER17> "With hindsight, and much more data, long-term trending analysis of the Sabre- metrics examples given in Moneyball have not correlated with increased team, or even individual, performance in baseball."

Hmmm... what? The general principles Beane operated from have pretty much been adopted league-wide at this point. Of course, MLB is a zero-sum game, so once everyone adopts something, it's no longer an advantage. The Tampa Bay Rays are operating off the same statistical measurement philosophy (although they understandably don't share which) to make a small-market club operate efficiently, and they're pretty successful with it.

<comment><USER18> A corollary there is that you cannot leverage in baseball like you can in financial markets to play at ever thinner margins and thus the theory becomes largely useless unless you can augment it with better information.

Also, people forget that "increased... performance" in baseball often means an increase in profit, not an increase in victories.

<comment><USER16> True. In financial markets, even small inefficiencies and impedance mis- matches can be exploited due to liquidity, fine-granularity, high transaction volumes, and uniform standards of measurement. The same principles don't down- scale to the individual athlete or small-group (team) dynamics.

Put another way, financial market strategies (in theory) can be constructed on matching/measuring against a continuous variance in capital efficiencies. Human performance is simultaneously less consistent, discrete, and difficult to measure.

Put another way, think of matching the torque/horsepower vs. rpm curves for a typical family sedan's engine versus a high-compression race engine. The former can get good performance with an automatic transmission, the later requires a stick shift and an experienced hand on the till.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The article touches on predicting stats, and I'm wondering what kinds of predictive algorithms would be used in a situation like this?

</comment><comment><USER20> As a side note, why do you have to login to email this article to a friend? My friend and I are huge Rockets fans, and I know he'd love to read this, but forcing me to sign in to email it to him is ridiculous.

<comment><USER21> You could just copy the URL...

<comment><USER20> Yeah, I know, that's what I did, but annoying nonetheless.</comment></comment></comment>


Stop using difficult-to-guess passwords, UK's spying agency GCHQ recommends - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/stop-using-difficulttoguess-passwords-uks-spying-agency-gchq-recommends-10497048.html <comment><USER2> lol nice try</comment>


All sophisticated life on Earth may owe its existence to one freakish event - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/10/mergers--acquisitions/the-unique-merger-that-made-you-and-ewe-and-yew <comment><USER2> Actual title: "The Unique Merger That Made You (and Ewe, and Yew)"</comment>


Ask HN: Have you written a book? If so, why? - <AUTHOR>

I would love to hear opinions from any HN members who published a book (either print or digital) and learn what was their motivation. Beyond monetary gain, what inspired them to write a book for others to read. Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> <http://hexayurt.com/novel> "Mother of Hydrogen"

Because I had some ideas I wanted to work out, and fiction was The Way. Also <http://thefuturewedeserve.com> which was a massively collaborative book some friends and I put together: really a fun project, quite mind expanding.

</comment><comment><USER3> Definitely wasn't the money.

I wanted to explore a new topic that didn't have that much material out at the time (Google Wave -> HTML5 Gaming). And I like to speak at conferences, a book helps you get selected more.

My book has done better than most and is still selling decently approaching 2 years since publication but that's the exception , not the rule.

</comment><comment><USER4> I love books. It's a way to influence the world with my ideas and passion. It was a fantastic learning experience, and is still a good conversation starter.

Having said that, my next book(s) will be much more closely tied to my professional career aspirations - the book can serve as a "calling card."

If you do write a book, put in the work to do it well. Please don't use a vanity press!

</comment><comment><USER5> All my ebooks have been free. I did because I like writing, it's a great way to learn and a great way to teach.

Most popular were Foundations of Programming, The Little MongoDB Book and The Litte Redis Book. Most recent is Scaling Viki.

</comment><comment><USER6> A PhD can be viewed as a peer-reviewed, published book, so yes.</comment>


Visit North Korea - <AUTHOR> http://koryotours.com/ <comment><USER2> This is disgusting. North Korea deserves not a single dime of Western tourist money. This is literally subsidizing mass murder, torture and famine as a method of social control.

<comment><USER3> This could be seen as an educational visit. This is what an actual _dystopia_ looks like.

<comment><USER4> The thing is, you can't escape from the guided tour and they only take you to places on list of about 20 approved tourist sites. You can't escape the hotel. So there is no opportunity to wander around the DPRK and actually see the dystopia, you only see the Potemkin village facade.

<comment><USER5> Okay, point taken. You'll only get to see the artificial air-brushed façade of the nightmare.

But, uh, how could a tour of a genuine dystopia actually work any other way? Would a dystopia _ever_ advertise the horrors if its own shortcomings? Could a dystopia adequately prove it's own misery-inducing institutional apparatus to visitors if it tried? And, my god, would you actually want such an experience?

A walking tour of a prison camp? Tour guides that explain how they know they will die incarcerated, and that technically, listening to their words is actively benefiting from slave labor? What if you could go on an actual ride- along with a death squad as they disappear a real, live political dissident?

Wouldn't paying money for the opportunity to wade in and observe someone else's living hell, represent true sadistic voyeurism, when contrasted against the premise of paying to satisfy a morbid curiosity of what they'll _let_ you see of it?

<comment><USER6> The point is that your precious tourist dollars go towards supporting an oppressive regime so that you can view their citizens in zoo-like conditions. It's a disgusting choice to make.

<comment><USER5> Most of the people I know of, who would travel there, are not interested in anything beyond the bragging rights of doing things few other people have done. Emphasis on the bragging. It's a trip a person takes to be cooler than the people who will listen to them talk about it.

Actually, come to think of it, disgusting totalitarian patronage or not, that's what being on the receiving end of most conversations about someone else's vacation feels like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Trippy. I would consider going. I've been to Cuba (pre detente) and the West Bank. Both experiences were enlightening. I have significantly higher reservations about the government of DPRK and the ethics of visiting, for sure.

<comment><USER8>
        > I've been to Cuba (pre detente)
        > and the West Bank

Both of which can conceivably have a net positive impact on the people there.

        > DPRK

Not even once.

<comment><USER7> To be honest, I don't travel to have a positive impact on the people at the destination. While that would be nice, I'm pretty sure it's not the reality. I travel to experience the world and learn. At best, my social impact comes from being able to be a trusted source of information for people who don't get around so much.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> One has to wonder if they get kickback from the NK gov for bringing in foreign currency --it may well be there is no kickback, but given they are not locals and run the operation from China, that it takes knowing people to organize these guided tours.

</comment><comment><USER10> I wonder if Otto Warmbier used this tour company... [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea- ot...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/world/asia/north-korea-otto- warmbier.html?_r=0)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier)

<comment><USER11> Well in the wikipedia article you linked "Warmbier traveled to North Korea as a tourist with Young Pioneer Tours".

I would not go to N. Korea, your pretty close to directly funding the regime doing that IMO. Its funny I notice I am born almost the exact same time as Otto, I know its possible that I could have done something that dumb he just got some unlucky results.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I went with CYTS in 2010. North Korea is a fascinating country. Everything I like (Jesus and technology) is illegal!

Young Pioneer Tours are cheaper than Koryo, in case anyone wants to go on a budget.

<comment><USER8>
        > Young Pioneer Tours

PLUS, you get a chance for FREE LIFELONG accomodation![0]

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't think I could do this in good conscience. It would be like touring a Nazi concentration camp. In 1940.</comment>