How I legally got scammed for $250 by an upscale apartment complex - <AUTHOR> https://email@example.com/how-i-legally-got-scammed-for-250-and-2-days-by-upscale-apartment-complex-34fd1d0ff9e7 <comment><USER2> If this happens to you, you should consider talking to:

1\. Your state's AG [1]

2\. The local TV news

3\. Local police

I don't think I would call it a "legal scam," it sounds remarkably like fraud. Lots of modern fraud takes place over international VoIP calls, so the fact that there's a brick and mortar business with assets that can be seized means you shouldn't give up quickly.

> Even disputing a charge on the credit card — they have copies of our ID, > smart.

Dispute it anyways. Yes, it may flip back on you once they disclose the fact that you were there. But just stipulate it upfront that you made the purchase but the terms were unclear or that the claims that they made regarding your rejection are false.

These guys sound like they are clever enough to try and make their scheme as close to legal as possible. They made sure that the amount you're getting scammed isn't worth your time or an attorney's time. But don't let them get away with it.

[1] Texas AG consumer complaints: [https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer- com...](https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/cpd/file-a-consumer-complaint)

<comment><USER3> 4\. Go to your state legislature and try to get a bill passed.

What surprises me is that CoreLogic is not bound by the same terms that any other credit reporting bureau is. There is no way any business is going to just write you a letter stating that you currently owe no money, not without talking to a lawyer first, I'd hope.

If they want to impugn your credit with with this type of reporting, then it's their responsibility to ensure its accuracy.

<comment><USER4> CoreLogic claims they FCRA doesn't apply to them, because they apparently are a "wholesale" data warehouse that sells data to companies that do background checks, but a federal judge disagreed:

[http://www.reuters.com/article/employment-corelogic- idUSL2N1...](http://www.reuters.com/article/employment-corelogic- idUSL2N17N0D8)

<comment><USER5> There is another major database called Early Warning [1] that also claims to be exempt from certain parts of the FCRA. I was an identity theft victim. After blocking credit checks at all 3 major bureaus and ChexSystems, I contacted these guys and asked them to block any reports they have on me. They essentially said that they don't have to, and won't, despite legislation allowing consumers to request freezing of credit files. I eventually got a nasty voicemail basically inviting me to sue them if I didn't like it.

These specialty databases need serious regulation...it's clear that credit bureaus and those that use them are tired of working within the confines of the FCRA and are going out of their way to create databases that are exempt.

[1] [http://earlywarning.com/](http://earlywarning.com/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Maybe you've never attempted to rent an apartment in NYC. They typically require

      * scanned ID
      * recent bank statements
      * recent pay stubs
      * recent tax return or W2
      * letter of employment on official company letterhead
      * company office number they can call to confirm employment
      * last two addresses you lived at
      * letter from previous landlord
      * yearly salary at least 40x (sometimes 50x) monthly rent
      * ~ $100 application fee for background / credit check
      * first months rent, security deposit, and broker's fee, on three separate certified/cashiers checks

The market of renters is very competitive. But also, as a tenant it's possible for you to be a huge problem, and you can be very difficult for them to remove. It's like they assume I might make a huge mess, damage the apartment, never pay rent, and refuse to move out for many months while legal proceedings grind slowly through the courts, and they'll never recover any costs because I'm broke. Even though my bank account statements show I could pay for the whole year up-front.

Compare to when Square shuts down or rejects a seller account with no explanation or recourse, or when Google AdWords does the same. It's because they've been burned by scammers in the past, scammers who are better at looking safe and innocent than honest people. It's just more efficient for them to be draconian and unsympathetic.

I just accept that's how it is. Maybe you take your business elsewhere. You're only out $250, could be way worse, could be thousands ...

<comment><USER7> I've never had to scan ID or provide a previous landlord letter for a NYC rental. Also there's usually no app fee just a $50 credit check. But all the other bullet points ring true. I've also lived in trendier Brooklyn neighborhoods where the competition is high. You must be prepared with a cashiers check for a down payment. Shit goes quick here.

<comment><USER8> I live in NYC and likewise have never had to scan my ID. Scanning my ID would seem really odd to me if a landlord ever asked for it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Why don't they get a copy of the Corelogic report?

[http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property- solutions...](http://www.corelogic.com/solutions/rental-property-solutions- consumer-assistance.aspx)

How do I obtain a copy of my CoreLogic Rental Property Solutions Consumer File?

Under the Fair Credit Reporting Act, you are entitled to receive one free copy of your consumer file in any twelve month period from a credit reporting agency (CRA). You are also entitled to a free copy of your consumer file if you meet the following criteria:

You have been notified of an adverse action or been denied housing or employment based on information in your consumer file within the past 60 days

You reside in a state where you are entitled to more than one free copy in any twelve month period

You suspect that your file may contain fraudulent information, or you are a victim of identity theft

You are unemployed or you currently receive public assistance

You may obtain a copy of your CoreLogic® Rental Property Solutions consumer file in one of two ways:

1) Call our toll-free number 1-888-333-2413 OR 2) Complete this form. [http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent- consumer...](http://www.corelogic.com/downloadable-docs/saferent-consumer- disclosure.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER10> Landlord here. This tenant made a mistake paying an "administrative fee" of $150, and giving the deposit ($350) without a signed lease. Though, we do charge a $50 application fee to cover the cost of the background check we run.

However, if this company is indeed not intending to rent this property and only collecting the application fees, it would be fraud.

<comment><USER11> > Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my > suspicion, I've rented many apartment before and none of properties ever > asked for that before signing the lease

That sounds like a red flag with the article/author. What apartment place wouldn't do a background check and want ID to make sure they go the right person?

<comment><USER12> As a non-American living in Western Europe the idea of a landlord doing a "background check" on prospective tenants is terrifying. Never heard of such a thing in Europe. What the hell does "background check" even entail.

<comment><USER13> Unfortunately in the UK landlords are obliged to perform immigration checks: [https://www.gov.uk/check-tenant-right-to-rent- documents/who-...](https://www.gov.uk/check-tenant-right-to-rent- documents/who-to-check)

Most European countries have mandatory ID / residence registration so this is handled directly by the state rather than making landlords do it.

(Whether the UK counts as "Europe" is a subject of extreme controversy)

<comment><USER14> That rule in the UK is very new, and also controversial.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> For what it's worth, landlords in Texas have to "maintain written [tenant] selection criteria"[1] and inform you of them when asked. This is supposed to be noted and underlined on rental applications.

1 (PDF): [https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteri...](https://www.tdhca.state.tx.us/pmcdocs/TenantSelectionCriteria.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER16> And this is why … I love California and would never move to a "business- friendly" state.

[http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtm...](http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/looking.shtml)

> "The application fee cannot legally be more than the landlord's actual out- > of-pocket costs, and, in 2012, can never be more than $44.51. The landlord > must give you a receipt that itemizes his or her out-of-pocket expenses in > obtaining and processing the information about you. The landlord must return > any unused portion of the fee (for example, if the landlord does not check > your references)."

</comment><comment><USER17> This is standard state of affairs in the UK, I see some agencies in US started to take notice.

Basically if you want to rent a property here, an agency will demand that you pay their fee first(last time I paid over 500 pounds just in agency fees), so they can run a full background check on you - so you have to submit proof of your employment, proof of income, history of addresses for past 3 years, bank account details, copy of my passport to prove the right to rent in the UK, and then it's sent off to some agency somewhere which does the check.

And basically it comes back as yes/no, depending on your credit score, income, blah blah blah. If it comes back as no, you lose all the money you paid in those "fees".

It's a scam of gigantic proportions, but UK plays along because people here love "order" and being invigilated by some random rental agency seems to scratch that itch.

<comment><USER18> True, but we are trying to make it illegal [0] for precisely the reasons you stated, and it's already illegal in Scotland.

[0] [http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...](http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When- does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Stories like this are why it's illegal in BC to charge application fees ([http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/0207...](http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/02078_01#section15)).

Our tenancy law isn't perfect, but I think this is one of the things we got right.

<comment><USER20> Also in Scotland. Soon to be the case in England & Wales, if the government doesn't blink in the face of outraged letting agents.

<comment><USER18> Thanks, I had thought that it was already illegal in England, just learned that it hasn't come into effect yet[0]. For information, the linked to article states that it will probably come into effect in September, provided the government doesn't blink as mentioned above.

[0] [http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/...](http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/buytolet/article-4032280/When- does-tenant-fees-ban-begin.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Related but not precisely on topic... When will a group of talented people with access to capital end the gross imbalance of power between landlords and tenants with technology? In just about every other area of the economy the customer has the power. To give the customer aka renter more power they need more information. Step 1 is having ratings for all landlords/properties. The landlords get your rating (your credit) but you don't get theirs. That asymmetry puts the renter at a disadvantage. There is also no price discovery mechanism. You only know the rate they quote you, no way to find out the actual price they are charging existing tenants. Payments in this industry are often still by check which is absurd in 2017. This is one of the last giant markets left for technology to disrupt but it's going to be a war. The landlord/tenant relationship is "where the rubber meets the road" in the struggle between the rich and the rest of us... so this isn't going to be easy. If someone took this on I'd be honored to be a part of it!

[https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce](https://vimeo.com/user12087540/checkmeonce)

</comment><comment><USER22> I was looking for rentals last weekend in ATL , and i noticed the administrative fee too. I don't remember seeing it last time around (couple of years ago), which makes me wonder if it's a recent phenomenon. The adminstrative fee, usually $250 or so, was in addition to the application fee. This makes no sense. What are they charging this for ? I didn't ask if it's after the application is approved or before. I'm guessing that it's after, but it's still a straight up cash grab. Another shitty thing that stood out was some sort of mandatory comcast fees. That is $85 for Comcast's most basic package, which is much higher than the price on Comcast's website.

<comment><USER23> In keeping with this ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11986307)), cable companies frequently pay for lock-in deals with apartment complexes. Spectacularly shitty, but I suspect related to you getting worse-than-listed rates.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Post this to the Austin reddit. Others may have been scammed as well. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/)

If you have the time, sue them in small claims court. Document everything.

Edit: I see you've already posted it: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legall...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/63azq8/how_i_legally_got_scammed_for_250_and_2_days_by/)

</comment><comment><USER25> Whenever you have something like this please put it on Yelp! Many of us will check yelp before renting with a company.

</comment><comment><USER26> >The First place we visited Altis Lakeline managed by Altman Companies was amazing, its a brand new apartment complex with cool amenities, priced at $1400 which is much lower, compare to similar places $1600–$1700, that where I missed first red flag. Plus they had amazing special — 2 months free rent — which under normal circumstances will raise suspicion, I thought it's a brand new property with construction done a few months ago trying to get to full capacity.

I really had trouble reading through this. I know medium isn't for writers per se but basic proofreading would have helped tremendously.

<comment><USER27> I felt the same way over and over again throughout. Whether or not the author's primary language is English, it feels like it was written without proofreading or editing at all.

<comment><USER28> I got the sense they weren't a native speaker. Otherwise the errors were, frankly, egregious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Any company like this is going to scam you at move out time as well. One agent told me that nobody gets their full deposit back, ever. They'll make up a list of things they had to do and give you an inflated bill for it.

<comment><USER30> This is easy to get around. Take pictures of the apartment at move-in. Read the lease to discover standard cleaning fees before signing. Take care of the apartment. Walk through the apartment with the Landlord on move-out.

If they fraudulently deduct as part of some sort of profit-center, discover the wonderful world of small claims court. Not going to be fun but you'll win.

<comment><USER31> Haha this seems like maybe you haven't rented many places. My brother used to talk like this, but on his last move-out he got totally shafted. He and his wife had meticulously scrubbed every surface, _then_ they hired a cleaning company, and they _still_ got none of their deposit back.

The "easy" solution to this, although it does have some drawbacks, is simply not to pay the last month's rent.

The only time I haven't gotten screwed over by a landlord is when we knew each other through our university alumni association.

<comment><USER30> Rented plenty of places. Read my comment again. You seem to have ignored critical parts of it. Yes, if your landlord takes your deposit and do nothing except complain on hackernews they obviously aren't going to write you a check out of the goodness of their hearts.

Not paying the last months rent seems like an absolutely terrible idea (depends on local state laws I suppose, but please consult with a local renter advocate association or lawyer before trying this) and the exact sort of advice that will lead you into handing over gobs of cash to your landlord for absolutely no good reason then writing anecdotes about it till the end of time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> > Then they made a photocopy of our ID for a file. Which again raised my > suspicion, I've rented many apartment before and none of properties ever > asked for that before signing the lease, in my head it was done deal — so I > let it slip.

Seems to be normal here in the bay area. They usually do a background check too and I can't imagine that happening without ID.

<comment><USER23> I was confused about that being suspicious myself. It seems common, and it doesn't actually prevent him from doing a credit card chargeback - he's not disputing on "I never paid that", he's disputing on "they didn't give what they promised".

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I faced a relatively similar situation when trying to rent in the East Bay. My wife and I both have 720+ credit scores as were looking to rent in the $2500 range. After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I realized something was off. Our credit scores had been run multiple times and we had paid application processing fees at multiple places yet we were getting rejected. Perhaps the applicant pool is so strong that my 7X multiple on rent income and great scores won't cut it - but I find it hard to believe. Perhaps the blessing of a strong tech economy comes with the curse of arrogant and fraudulant potential landlords. Can't wait to get out of this city

<comment><USER27> > After going through applications at 3 places and getting rejected, I > realized something was off.

So did you investigate what that something is? (Unclear to me)

<comment><USER34> he's saying "lots of people are probably running this scam" as an explanation his shitty experience with the shittiness that is the bay area housing market.

<comment><USER27> Ah, okay. After reading the author's Medium post, I wasn't as convinced the rest of HN that he's actually being scammed. Put another way, he has not convinced me that the issue doesn't lie in something unique to his situation or his credit report. Most of the "red flags" mentioned, as others have pointed out here, are not abnormal in (legitimate) apartment rental application processes, my own included.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Honestly the author should try applying for renting an apartment/room in NYC. I had to give, ID, Letter from employer/university, payslips, SSN etc. Weeks before signing the lease, which actually ended up happening literally the day of move-in. The 250$ charge seems exorbitant, but ~50 to 100$ credit check fee is common, most agents will provide a realistic assessment of your chances.

</comment><comment><USER36> This is why I vastly prefer to rent on handshake deals and standard lease agreements with homeowners. It's waaaay more human.

<comment><USER37> I've been burned by a major corporate rental before, and will never do that again. Moving in wasn't a problem, though the "Smart Saver" non-refundable deposit they offered should have been enough of a red flag. Once while on a week long company retreat they upgraded their payment system, which removed my payment information not only causing my rent to be late, but they then filed for eviction after only three days. That cost me easily half a month's rent in fees to clear up because of their own technical fuckup. The only notice for the upgrade, of course, was a flyer left hanging from my door which I found when I got home along with a notice on my door. When I moved out they claimed nearly a thousand dollars in cleaning fees, with line items like "trash bag (5), $75 each," which in itself would be bullshit had I not had the place cleaned. When I tried to dispute the charges, the ever so helpful rental agents told me to pay it in thirty days or it would go to collections.

These mega rental corporations just exist to nickel and dime the shit out of everyone and will throw their weight around. You'll just spend more on legal fees, and they bank on that.

<comment><USER36> From me, pulling that sort of horseshit gets you a certified letter notifying you, the landlord, of your impending small claims court date.

Companies that want to play that kind of game don't want to play it with me. Particularly in my state (MA), the law is vastly in my favor, and I am willing and able to spend the time proving that point. I know a lot of people can't, so i'm happy enough to exact some measure of karmic equivalence.

<comment><USER38> In my state (VT), there's a section of the law that says something to the effect that if a landlord willfully withholds returning any part of the security deposit after 14 days then the tenant is automatically awarded 3x of the deposit.

I learned all about this in the last apartment I rented before buying a house. I was trying to work with the property management companies lawyer over how much it would cost to replace broken door (another long story), and the lawyer was of the mind that I owed them more than I had on deposit and I should set up a payment plan ASAP.

The 14 day limit passed and I got a summons that I was being sued for $1500 over the deposit for a couple of small things plus a empty heating oil tank (heat wasn't included). They said it was full when I moved in, but I produced a receipt that _I_ paid for the tank to be filled on the day I moved in along with a voice mail from the actual landlord that said I didn't need to fill the tank when I moved out.

The lawyer immediately wanted to "settle" with them keeping the whole deposit, but I was happy to go to court. We were in front of the judge for less than a minute and they ended up paying almost 1/2 of the first year of my mortgage.

<comment><USER36> I found a really lovely blog post a few years back where something like this happened. The landlord's lawyer's face apparently visibly collapsed when the tenant replied "oh, let me check my notes" on the stand in response to questioning and pulled out 3" of paper..

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Does Medium.com not have editors or something? Some things sounded off, some didn't make any sense at all.

"She just hang up on me"

"Plus they had amazing special"

"They provide iPad on the spot"

"my wife credit score"

"At this point I hate it them."

<comment><USER40> there are no editors. it's user generated content, it's not a magazine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> The whole situation sucks. The last thing anyone wants to do is consistently use an attorney to handle matters like these. Each and every day it seems like a necessity. I guess when leasing a place, add up all the months. It might be a good rule of thumb to always consult an attorney for any contracts with goods or services worth more $2000.00.

What sucks is finding an attorney that can advise you on such matters, deal with them, and litigate them for your refund + attorney costs.

</comment><comment><USER42> I know that 'obtaining money or property under false pretenses' is a felony in at least some states. I wonder why this wouldn't apply?

</comment><comment><USER43> This is exactly what the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is designed to fight against. www.consumerfinance.gov

</comment><comment><USER44> It's possible the author is on to something -- but proving it is something else. Maybe 5 people in Austin area with perfect-ish credit scores / hidden cameras could mount a sting op.

Similar to how government agencies build cases of racial discrimination in housing.

</comment><comment><USER45> Ask them what their minimum credit score is? If they refuse, I'd say you definitely have a legal case to recover your time and lawyer fees

<comment><USER46> It's a proprietary credit system. Presumably, they have the ability to tweak the system (possibly though a separate agency under similar ownership that is able to report people with post-dated collections).

I imagine if someone is familiar enough with the law, they might find that some statutes about credit reporting are broad enough to apply to any credit system, and these people might find themselves under indictment if the right entities are alerted.

At a minimum, it's very fishy that a proprietary credit system is being used and people are finding that they just happen to have bogus entries in that system. It would be _really_ interesting to know the total number of companies that use that system and to see the query and reporting history of each...

<comment><USER47> This just seems like a property-rental equivalent of the "yo-yo scam" that car dealers do.

The essence of the scam is they carefully let you think you're buying a car when really you're just "applying" for a loan to buy it. They collect a down payment, processing fees, etc., hand you the keys to the car and you drive off... only to get it repossessed a day or two later when "the bank denied your financing". And of course, all the money you gave them is non-refundable, as spelled out in the paperwork you signed. Then they repeat with the next sucker who walks onto the lot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> are people really so naive? maybe living in NYC has made me hard and bitter, but shit, it's just a ground truth here that the landlords and the real estate agents are not your friends and you should treat EVERY transaction done with them with extreme scrutiny.

</comment><comment><USER48> This has "class-action lawsuit" written all over it. Some smart lawyer just needs to double down and get it together.

</comment><comment><USER49> Send this to John Oliver on last week tonight

</comment><comment><USER50> This isn't a scam. The author admits they had an actual reason for denying him. It was a mistake in his record and they charged an exorbitant processing fee, but there is nothing that shows they acted in bad faith.

</comment><comment><USER51> I've used Corelogic as a landlord as well. Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and would likely be denied. I'd compare it to very late credit card payments or a charge off. Not a scam. The employee doing the review would get in trouble for approving this application!

<comment><USER52> > Any applicant with a reported history of non payment is a big red flag and > would likely be denied.

Directly from the article:

> My application was denied due to their system show that some management > company filed missing rent in 2011. Which is not true I have zero > collections or public records.

The point is they were lying.

<comment><USER53> Or the data was wrong.

<comment><USER54> Most likely the data was wrong. The credit report industry has a 20% error rate.

See the old 60 Minutes investigation on this.

[http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your- cred...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/40-million-mistakes-is-your-credit- report-accurate-25-08-2013/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> CoreLogic is not to blame here. They are a massive company. They would not be scamming renters out of such small amounts.

<comment><USER34> I heard or listened to an anecdote about how credit reporting would actually be a perfect application for ML, but ML companies are fearful of stepping into a minefield of "you can't do this" regulations.

If an algorithm found some correlation between your "credit worthiness" (however their proprietary IP chooses to define it) and race or color of skin (or some proxy of), then using that information would be (legally) discrimination, say most legal experts speculating on a hypothetical (but bound to happen eventually) case. The fact is, yes, ML could probably discover a bunch of novel correlations that increase effectiveness by 7.8%, but since we can't really describe what "model" or way of thinking about our world the deep neural net is using, it's too easy to build a racist and discriminatory credit report. Kinda like that microsoft twitter chatbot that had to be taken down because it was learning from (and repeating) the racist garbage that a bunch of trolls were feeding it. Point is, it's a minefield.

But it's going to happen. Someone's going to try it.

And that's what the dark side of these companies like CoreLogic is: when real people's life events are influenced by the outcome of these databases, what's a societally-acceptable error rate? And what mechanisms are in place to check it?

Not saying CoreLogic is using racist ML credit bots. Not even saying the problem here is racism. I'm saying we've decided to put rules in front of credit reporting companies because, even if it's unintentional, it can lead to outcomes we all decided "you know, we have these ideals we're trying to strive towards and this isn't it." You also don't need a conscious conspiracy to output a racistbot -- microsoft didn't _set out_ to make one, they just didn't think to build in a troll filter.

So yeah, CoreLogic isn't scamming renters out of such small amounts, but they are benefitting from an environment that allows such scams to exist.

Put another way, if there was some pending legislation that would make it harder for these scams to work (eg CoreLogic being legally obligated to also publicly report how many inquiries an inquirer has made with CoreLogic for the purpose of this specific property), do you think CoreLogic would spend lobbying money protecting their interests and preventing this at the expense of the consumer? Of course they would, reporting regulations are a huge operating expense! (wait... aren't you a company specializing in reporting...?)

That's why the author made a few swipes at the less-regulated corner of the credit report industry.

<comment><USER56> If it isn't fed the information then it can't discriminate. The meat and potatoes of the issue seems to lie in the "some proxy of" clause. Is unknowingly using some proxy for race really discrimination though? I'd imagine several things could be used as this proxy to varying degrees, everything from income to criminal history.

<comment><USER57> > _I 'd imagine several things could be used as this proxy to varying degrees, > everything from income to criminal history_

But I think you could also make a compelling argument that many of those things are accurate proxies primarily due to the legacy of more overt discrimination, and it would be difficult to impossible to disentangle that.

<comment><USER56> I would make that argument, but I'd also argue that modern companies shouldn't factor in past injustices, things would get too messy too quickly.

<comment><USER57> Life is messy. I think there's a fine line, but still a difference, between factoring in past injustices and factoring in _current_ negative conditions that resulted from past injustices. Throwing your hands up and saying "it's too hard" seems a bit of a cop out for the latter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> I don't get why the property got so much flak. Okay, management seems bad and communication seems to suck. However, background checks cost $50 each. So, it's already $100, putting their profit to $150 for locking one appartement for you for a few days. If you fail the background checks, it's your issue not there. And maybe we just need a better system for background checks. Surely.

</comment><comment><USER41> I think the building might not be ready for occupancy. Maybe there is some holdup from a municipality, investor, contractor, fire inspection that is the cause of the real holdup. They really should just return your money but please remember, the person you dealt with also must deal with a large bureaucracy. Maybe the company she works for thinks everything is OK and they just had a series of bad tenants. When dealing with the company you need to remember that person has no incentive in telling you no. At the end of the day they just want a paycheck and will do whatever their bosses tell them to do, right or wrong.

I believe CoreLogic was spun off from First American.

[https://www.corelogic.com/about- us/news/asset_upload_file346...](https://www.corelogic.com/about- us/news/asset_upload_file346_4004.pdf)

You may want to see if you are eligible to file a claim with your renter's insurance policy.

As for CoreLogic, you will want to use all the debtor's rights laws at your disposal. All those credit reporting laws apply to them, maybe small claims court would be a good avenue. Small claims courts will usually squash any unruly practices of a landlord.

The large rental management companies can be difficult to worth with as a tenant. At the same time its easier for tenants because they have more tools at their disposal especially in collecting minimal amounts of security deposits and timely repairs. They can be difficult when trying to break a lease, return deposits, or charging misc/extra fees. Sometimes there is no way around it. You need to go into the situation understanding you will lose money.

A good rule of thumb is more amenities => more fees => more problems!</comment>


The first API to send interactive emails: Rebelmail API - <AUTHOR> http://blog.rebelmail.com/the-rebelmail-api/ <comment><USER2> Can you give a brief rundown of what this does? Also, do you plan to support amazon SES in the future?

<comment><USER3> Hi, Kevin here from team Rebelmail.

The long and short of it is this, we allow you to put interactivity directly inside of your recipients inbox. That means things like slideshows, hot spots, full forms and more.

Our API allows developers to send these emails programmatically, just send just the content of the email in a request. We then build the email on the fly and allow you to send it out.

And SES is already supported via SMTP. We should make that more clear there.</comment></comment>


Lorentz Transformations with a Mechanical Time-Globe [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh0pYtQG5wI <comment><USER2> A Lorentz transformation can be written as a rotation matrix using hyperbolic trig functions instead of regular ones. This machine works by having grooves in the shape of hyperbolic lines that the blocks follow.

<comment><USER3> Yup. Whereas rotations involve two spatial directions (the plane of rotation), a Lorentz boost involves a spatial direction and a temporal direction. Also, the analogue of a rotation angle for a Lorentz boost is a _rapidity_ (hyperbolic angle).

</comment></comment><comment> Ono-Sendai I did a javascript version here if anyone wants to try the software equivalent :)

[http://forwardscattering.org/post/36](http://forwardscattering.org/post/36)

</comment><comment><USER4> The device works just by following/'reading' the pre-cut Lorentz-encoding grooves cut into the base of the device. There's nothing computational going on in the grid of mechanisms. Replace the base with non-hyperbolic grooves and you'd get non-relativistic transformations. It just follows the template encoded for it.

<comment><USER5> No one ever claimed it was a general-purpose computer. Like all special- purpose computers, it performs a specific computation when used.

<comment><USER4> That's actually a fascinating point because I both in one sense am not denying the device's generality whilst in another sense indeed defending it's generality: it might be said that I'm actually saying it's general because you can run those grids upon virtually any engraved backplane while at the same time since reading off the backplane is all the device does I'd be arguing it isn't general at all.

This is the mechanical analogue computer equivalent of a digital discrete computer's bi-dimensional lookup table.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is awesome! (More in the spirit of visualizing Special Relativity: [https://www.testtubegames.com/velocityraptor.html](https://www.testtubegames.com/velocityraptor.html))

</comment><comment><USER7> I think I'm in love

</comment><comment><USER8> Very accessible!</comment>


Caddy 1.0, Caddy 2, and Caddy Enterprise - <AUTHOR> https://caddyserver.com/blog/announcing-caddy-1_0-caddy-2-caddy-enterprise <comment><USER2> I was excited about it and had it in my "check it out for next project" list. Then saw that they were adding "ads" or some arbitrary junk to headers to annoy users into considering a paid tier. I never bothered to look at it again. I saw that the ads thing was removed, but the project lost that bit of trust to be considered seriously after that. It may be a wonderful thing that I am missing out on. But, just saying how my thought process went.

I will perhaps try it for some toy projects. But, I will have to watch the words with oil in eyes before using it in any serious projects. If I don't have the time to do that diligence, then this thing will not be considered.... This is the cost of losing trust with potential users.

<comment><USER3> The "ads" were a simple Caddy-Sponsors header being sent on every HTTP response, containing the string "This free web server is made possible by its sponsors: Minio, Uptime Robot, and Sourcegraph". It could be removed (legally, the license allows it) by compiling from source. This whole thing was largely a non-issue, and overblown.

The bigger issue that came with it was a website redesign that was fairly misleading (it looked like Caddy was going to be closed source), but when it was pointed out, it was clarified to clearly point out that Caddy is a Free and Open Source Software. To me, this reinforced my trust in the project. They went the wrong way, people didn't like it, they fixed it.

The fact that, in today's world, a single misstep generates an immediate and irrevocable loss of trust, even when that misstep is quickly corrected and apologies are issued, is incredibly weird to me. It pushes people to hide their mistakes instead of being open about them...

Disclaimer: I'm a happy user of Caddy, using self-built binaries. I'll take this chance to thank the developers behind Caddy. You have made my life a lot easier :).

<comment><USER4> > The fact that, in today's world, a single misstep generates an immediate and > irrevocable loss of trust, even when that misstep is quickly corrected and > apologies are issued, is incredibly weird to me. It pushes people to hide > their mistakes instead of being open about them...

This happened in the past too. What people did in the past was "move to another town", but in the age of the Internet you can't really run away from your public gaffes.

In this particular case, it's commendable that Caddy reversed course on the ads. However, many people's first exposure to Caddy was this ad story and it is extremely hard to change first impressions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Very important excerpt:

> Beginning today, commercial licenses are no longer required for commercial > use of any Caddy binaries.

<comment><USER6> I don't understand the change. If I understand the history correctly, previously commercial usage restrictions only applied to official binaries downloaded from their site, and now:

>Going forward, only commercial use of ... the download page ... requires a subscription

So now you're allowed to commercially use the official binaries without buying a license, but you're not allowed to acquire them without that license? I don't really understand how that's a distinction with any difference.

Is the expectation that (non-commercial) 3rd-parties will mirror the official binaries, and that's why it's a useful change?

<comment><USER4> > Now that version 1.0 is tagged, we will see about working on integrations > with Digital Ocean, various Linux distros and package managers, and making > an official Docker container.

So it seems that if you use the Docker container or an APT repository, there is no need for a subscription. However if you pull from their infrastructure you need to pay. Interesting way to muddy the waters and extract money from those who don't understand the situation.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's not correct. To clarify the facts:

\- You can always build from source, and you could have always built from source, for free, for commercial use, since the source code is and has always been Apache licensed.

\- 3rd-party distribution channels such as Digital Ocean images, Linux package managers, Docker, etc, have nothing to do with commercial or free use.

\- Using our official download page (or getcaddy.com) for commercial purposes requires a subscription.

<comment><USER4> The Caddy source code is hosted on GitHub, not on your infrastructure AFAICT. If that changed, then what you wrote is different from what I wrote. Otherwise, nothing written in the previous comment differs from what you just wrote.

<comment><AUTHOR> Your comment does not qualify "need to pay", which is only required for commercial users.

If Caddy is as unpopular as HN makes it look, then that's probably nobody. Right?

<comment><USER4> Just to be clear: it seems that the same exact binaries distributed via a docker image or through standard distro packages managers are free for commercial use. The difference is that obtaining it from you directly costs money. This is a part of the business model that HN users would likely find distasteful. You're charging people who aren't technically competent enough to realize that other places offer the same exact binaries for free. Why even permit the side channels in the first place?

<comment><AUTHOR> That's also an incorrect characterization. Those 3rd-party channels do not give you the power to customize Caddy the way our build infrastructure does. Try customizing Caddy with plugins through apt or DO images and let us know if you find a way to do that!

<comment><USER7> I understand other projects have similar compilation requirements but now you're just spinning a technical difficulty as a feature.

The fact people are still having trouble understanding your licensing terms should give you pause.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Big news! Very exciting to see Caddy push forwards.

</comment><comment><USER9> This is great news!

Thank you Matt, and everyone else who has contributed to such an amazing project :)

</comment><comment><USER10> Really happy to read that OS packages will be available. Thanks for responding to feedback!

All of these changes look great.

</comment><comment><USER11> What does Caddy offer over truly open source projects like Traefik?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm ready to answer your question, but define "truly open source" for me first.

<comment><USER11> FOSS, in the sense of freedom of speech as much as beer. Hinky enterprise license requirements for builds, their previous banner on non-enterprise versions, etc are not truly free, just a different kind of cost.

<comment><USER12> The enterprise license requirement for Caddy 1.0 is for using their build infrastructure, not for using the build. The banner was something that could trivially be removed (if it was even present this way) by compiling from source.

FOSS doesn't meant the company doesn't deserve to seek a business model. In fact, I applaud Caddy's approach towards finding a business model without interfering with the FOSS nature of the project itself. If you want to avoid Caddy's business model entirely, just build from source.

<comment><USER11> Which brings me back to my original query - why bother with that nonsense when I can just use Traefik?

If they're fussing with licenses to make money, what's to keep them making future license tweaks that do affect the source?

<comment><USER12> Traefik also has enterprise licenses. I'm not sure what your point is.

Literally the only thing Caddy has done that has impacted non-enterprise customers was that sponsor header that they removed pretty quickly when the community told them they didn't want it. And enterprise customers have always had the option of compiling from source if they don't want to buy a license.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It sounds like Caddy 2 will be open core. I'm not a fan.

<comment><USER14> What are your reservations with such a model? Just curious.

<comment><USER15> Not OP. Inevitably, most time/development is spent NOT on the core. Cool new features are not added to the core. I understand the business model and why, but it's not something end users like to see.

<comment><USER11> See Elasticsearch for an example of this. "Oh, you actually want auth on that otherwise entirely public cluster? Oh, well, now you better cough up some money for an enterprise subscription..."

<comment><USER7> Which is just fine if they weren't taking free contributions from anywhere. Once you start talking about a community building this great thing, your moral bar should much higher for how you treat users.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Does Caddy (still) need to run as root?

<comment><AUTHOR> No program _needs_ to run as root. What are you referring to?

<comment><USER17> Probably because it'll bind to low ports. setcap would fix it for OP.</comment></comment></comment>


Live View of Stonehenge via Raspberry Pi - <AUTHOR> https://stonehengeskyscape.co.uk/ <comment><USER2> Here's a more technical aspect from MagPi magazine: [https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/wp- content/uploads/2019/09...](https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/wp- content/uploads/2019/09/018-019_MagPi86_SHOWCASE_Stonehenge.png)</comment>


How serverless scales an idea to 100K monthly users at zero cost - <AUTHOR> https://medium.freecodecamp.org/how-serverless-scales-an-idea-to-100k-monthly-users-at-zero-cost-160b41557b94 <comment><AUTHOR> Over the same 30-day period, the Alexa skills have invoked the related AWS Lambda functions over 1M times.All the Lambda functions share the same AWS account and each function is allocated 512MB of memory and configured with a 7 second timeout.</comment>


Ask HN: Tools for checking my knowledge? - <AUTHOR> Hi y'all,
Do you know what tools or services exist for me to test my knowledge of certain programming languages? I am confident in my C++ and Python, but am always looking for holes in my understanding, and also for staying sharp.
I regularly do interview problems + side projects but this focuses on more on algorithmic and problem solving skills, and not necessary language features.
For example, the Triplebyte quizzes for specific languages, but I'm unsure if I can take that without being contacted by recruiters.
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Pluralsight has self-assessment tests for various languages and technologies - [https://www.pluralsight.com/product/skill- iq](https://www.pluralsight.com/product/skill-iq)

I've only done the Python one myself but it did seem to ask questions on some fairly esoteric stuff, from what I vaguely remember.

</comment><comment><USER3> look for college course syllabus it is a list of a ratified college lesson plan if you see anything you dont understand , find somwhere too learn about it.</comment>


Ask HN: Preferred chat program compromise between security and UX? - <AUTHOR> Recently I've been needing to switch from iMessage to something supporting Linux. My wife and I previously used Telegram, however I've never been sold on their security model. However, they do have one of the better UXs. I've wanted to try something like Matrix, but not heard great things on its performance.
So I'm curious to hear what you use HN. What do you use, what platform are you on, and what do you like/dislike about it?
Appreciate any replies. <comment><USER2> personally, i'm using matrix & riot with my family (including non-technical people), some friends and coworkers. i chose it for 5 main reasons:

1\. it is an open standard based on free software

2\. it is based on history synchronization between servers instead of message transmission between clients, so you can send messages seamlessly from any device and have access to your conversation history (think git vs sms)

3\. you can use your own server to host your conversations (the conversation history is replicated on the server of each participant)

4\. it has end-to-end encryption

5\. there is only one type of conversation, so the are no differences between a one-to-one chat and group chat: a one-to-one chat is simply a group chat with only two participants

i have my own personal server (old laptop at home), and the rest of my family uses another dedicated server (other old laptop at my cousin's home). friends and coworkers use the matrix.org homeserver. the matrix.org homeserver can be slow sometimes (because it hosts many rooms and has many connected users), but messaging between our own servers is instant.

sure, it's not (yet) as polished as mainstream apps. for example, currently, with end-to-end encryption, one need to verify each device of each other person on each of their own devices, which is not very user friendly (but this is being worked on, so only one verification per person will be needed in the future).

this said, it has nevertheless the most needed features. it has even some features that mainstream apps lack. for example, if you're a little technical you can start using bridges. this allows to receive and send messages from/to other messaging systems (irc, xmpp, slack, telegram, discord, sms,…) all from within your matrix client.

</comment><comment><USER3> Matrix project lead here; we've been making steady progress on performance issues, and since we exited beta a few weeks ago ([https://matrix.org/blog/2019/06/11/introducing- matrix-1-0-an...](https://matrix.org/blog/2019/06/11/introducing- matrix-1-0-and-the-matrix-org-foundation/)) we now have much more bandwidth to improve it. We were consciously following a "make it work, make it work right, make it work fast" philosophy.

For instance, as of a few days ago we have a tentative fix for one of the biggest causes of high RAM usage in Synapse (the reference server implementation): [https://github.com/matrix- org/synapse/pull/5480](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/pull/5480). If this tests out okay in the wild it should land in the next release.

Meanwhile, my personal server idles at around 600MB of RAM (across a few hundred conversations, some in quite large rooms), although there's room for us to reduce that by at least a factor of 10.

It's important to understand that Matrix is effectively a system for replicating chat history - it's more like USENET or Git than (say) XMPP or IRC. As a result, the resource utilisation depends entirely on the complexity/size of the rooms you participate in. A single person server where that user joins thousands of public chatrooms with hundreds of thousands of users is going to use a lot more RAM than a 10,000 person server where everyone is in small private chats.

Finally, a lot of Matrix's reputation for bad performance comes from the fact that the default sqlite database is not remotely optimised at all, and performs horrifically badly as soon as you start federating with the rest of Matrix. You _have_ to use Postgres these days. Also, if you do end up with a heavily used server, you have to manually increase the cache sizing in the config; it doesn't autotune the caches yet.

So to conclude:

* Run Python3

* Run PostgreSQL

* If your users are joining lots of large rooms, you'll need to manually increase the cache factor to avoid hammering the DB. Alternatively, you can now cap the size of rooms your server is allowed to participate in ([https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/5069](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/5069))

...and you should be relatively fine.

<comment><AUTHOR> Appreciate the info! Matrix does seem like the most likely for us.

Sidenote, has Matrix discussed priced offerings? Eg, I'm always concerned about OSS projects funding. I'd love if Matrix offered a, for example, purchasable hosted option that gave them a funding model beyond donations _(which are problematic for obvious reasons)_. I know this is less of an issue for self hosted FOSS, but still.

 _edit_ : Interesting, the Riot.im page has a link to Modular.im. I see it's "from the creators of Matrix", does that fund Matrix too? /me continues to dig

<comment><USER3> So while Matrix itself is an open source project backed by a non-profit foundation ([https://matrix.org/foundation](https://matrix.org/foundation)), the team who started Matrix created a startup (New Vector; [https://vector.im](https://vector.im)) in 2017 in order to hire the core developers and ensure we could keep working on it fulltime (and also to dogfood the protocol and ensure that you can build apps on it that people consider useful enough to pay for). The Riot app ([https://riot.im](https://riot.im)) is made by New Vector, and Modular ([https://modular.im](https://modular.im)) is the hosting service New Vector provides as a paid Matrix hosting offering (using Riot as the default client). The proceeds from Modular go directly to paying the Matrix core devs employed by New Vector, and so massively benefit the project. Sorry it's a bit complicated; turns out that funding opensource is not trivial...

<comment><AUTHOR> > Sorry it's a bit complicated; turns out that funding opensource is not > trivial...

You explained it well, and you're definitely correct. Appreciate your time! I look forward to being able to buy a tiny (ie 2 or 3 person) slice of Modular.im :)

<comment><USER3> Small (<5 people) deployments are coming in the next few weeks. I'm using mine already (and it's only using 190MB of RAM...)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Outready Radio – find upcoming shows by music, not by artist's name - <AUTHOR> http://outready.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> I created this radio because I don't know every music band and sometimes I miss some awesome shows. Now I listen the radio, if I like music I go to a show.</comment>


Japanese engineers develop flying robotic orb - <AUTHOR> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2011/10/japan-flying-sphere.html

<comment><USER2> Not that impressive if you are familiar with the technology.

As someone mentioned, this is, at its simplest, an RC helicopter inside a sphere.

RC helicopters have had off-the-shelf 3 axis gyros and 3 axis accelerometers available for quite some time. There are probably well over a dozen such systems in the market today.

As far as cost is concerned, the numbers are on par with what was mentioned. My smallest helicopter system probably runs about $2,000 or so ready to fly. This includes carbon fiber rotors, skeleton, 3-axis stabilization system, radio, etc.

If you dared get close to an RC heli with a stabilization system and push it you'd see exactly what you saw in this video: The heli would recover to its prior attitude. In real life wind gusts do this all the time.

No doubt they are writing additional code to take advantage of the spherical platform.

If you are interested in seeing what a modern high-performance RC heli can do today check out this seven year old kid flying one: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHJs1gBLiuQ>

Here's another example of what these machines can do today: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgbXcb1P6eU>

Yes, they are dangerous. Power systems can exceed 10KW on the high performance helis.

Here's one of the many commercially available 3-axis flight stabilization systems in the market:

<http://www.digitalflybar.com/products/sk720.html>

Time to take apart one of the helis and build a sphere around it!

<comment><USER3> The difference here is not so much that it hovers and stabilises position, but that it has two modes of flying: when it hovers, it works like a helicopter (the propeller provides support), but when it goes forward, it works like a plane (the wings provide support while the propeller only provides forward movement).

<comment><USER4> In addition to the two flying modes it can roll on the ground to get to hard to reach places. I've not seen a helicopter do that before.

<comment><USER2> OK, build a sphere around the $200 VTOL plane I linked to above and you have that too.

<comment><USER5> making that sphere not interfere with airflow from the rotors is not trivial.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Anyone else immediately think of those floating orbs from half-life 2? I'm imagining the U.S. military will be developing something similar if it hasn't already - the use cases just seem too extensive. I mean, something like that could float along in front of a unit/convoy deployed in hostile areas and scan/sense for IEDs, or you could have a distributed swarm of these patrolling streets at night with IR cameras, reporting any trouble. They'd be able to see under canopies, inside alleyways, even enter enclosures and buildings (physically if not legally). The fact that it's blades are some-what enclosed also makes it safer for close quarters operations without getting thwacked or cut up by a helicopter blade as well.

Another orwellian thought with a mixture of huxley - what if the future doesn't begin with these types of surveillance tech imposed on us by our government, patrolling our streets with cameras and other sensors, but rather with a slick company manufacturing and marketing it as a guardian-angel device?

Afraid of a family member being unsupervised? Call in the UAV to keep tabs on them from your smartphone. Want to go for a jog, but it's getting dark out? Bring along the Orb with flash-light, GPS, ability to call for help, etc. If you think it would be too ridiculous to happen, and that people wouldn't want to look ridiculous to these things hovering over them at all times, just wait until they get smaller...

<comment><USER7> >I'm imagining the U.S. military will be developing something similar if it hasn't already

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_RQ-16_T-Hawk>

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I went into that video thinking "Big deal; it's a helicopter inside a ball", but the way it moved in the air was actually very impressive -- especially the way it responded to being pushed by the demonstrator about a minute in.

<comment><USER9> Old ideas put together in a new way (literally: off-the-shelf components). It's convenient how everything - rotor, control surfaces - is tucked away. And it can execute a rolling landing.

They say they had a hover/fly plane, but take-off and landings were difficult, and the spherical design was an attempt to solve it ([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF0uLnMoQZA&t=1m40s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF0uLnMoQZA&t=1m40s) (1:40)). Although... perhaps the impressive aspects come from the R&D in the antecedent aircraft.

Hobbyists have long showed-off hovering remote-controlled model planes; the automatic control is what's really impressive, encapsulating that skill.

<comment><USER10> > Old ideas put together in a new way

AKA innovation

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> That's freaky as hell.

I've spent the last few months designing a spherical drone with counter- rotating props and Arduino controlled ailerons to direct the airflow... that looks nearly EXACTLY like the one in that video.

I still have the Sketchup files somewhere.

Now I have to go find something else that hasn't been done.

<comment><USER12> Finish the plans, put them on Thingiverse.com or something. Someone will build it and you'll be most satisfied to see it out there, I'm sure.

<comment><USER13> Yes, please do!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Put a pistol on it, or an explosive charge and you've got something the military would probably be interested in.

There's no denying this is cool, but there's also no denying that this type of technology could be used for very evil stuff. Launch one of these with a GPS a mile or so from a target and you've got an automated nasty.

Not to hard to think of counter measures. I suspect some kind of silly string ack ack could probably do bad things to those rotors. Mini "Barrage Balloons" with Monofilament lines and netting might come into vogue in certain circles...

<comment><USER15> The cheaper your weapon, the more effective the countermeasures have to be.

These things could just as easily carry a grenade (or several), and a dead man's switch. When it can't fly anymore, self-destruct.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> The video makes a big deal about how the parts are off-the-shelf; how off-the- shelf is the software?

Also, as of this writing, latimes.com claims the thing costs $140,000, but the video says $1,400 at 2:30.

<comment><USER17> I read this news in Japanese media, it describes material cost of this object is about 110,000 JPY ($1,446).

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Sering this, I think the same thing I did when I first saw quadrotors on Youtube: So, when do things like this replace cameras and helicopters as high tech policing tools?

Just place charging stations around the city that they can land in (in this car, or affix to in the case of quadrotors,) and you've got an extra pair of eyes on the street able to cover far more ground than a patrolman. (Though, you'd stol need someone to pilot them. For now.)

</comment><comment><USER19> Yes but can it get the princess to tell you where the rebel base is?

[http://www.originalprop.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2008/06/...](http://www.originalprop.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2008/06/where-science-meets-imagination-interrogation- droid-x2000.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER20> Ah! It's a probe droid! :D

</comment><comment><USER21> Finally, Anti-escape Orbs are a possibility.

</comment><comment><USER22> THE MANHACKS ARE COMING!</comment>


Social sports betting platform - a new tech promising startup - <AUTHOR> https://www.bethall.com/#about A new great start-up <comment><USER2> Great platform! It brings the power of social networking to the sports betting world, making this way the betting community more connected and interactive. Worth a try!</comment>


C++ ConcurrencyTS: A Basic Implementation - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/amukherj/concurrencyts <comment><AUTHOR> This is a basic but usable implementation of the C++ ConcurrencyTS. The README lists what's supported and what's not. I think the when_any implementation is flaky.</comment>


Google will open a new office complex and add hundreds of jobs in Taiwan - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/26/google-will-open-a-new-office-complex-and-add-hundreds-of-jobs-in-taiwan/ <comment><USER2> >Last year, the project trained about 5,000 students in AI technology and 50,000 digital marketers.

I feel like Taiwan represents a talent opportunity like no other. I dream of starting an engineering company there that is literally a clone of some upcoming business model, and doing nothing but capping the work week at 40 hours and guaranteeing 4 weeks vacation. I could snipe the best talent on hand in the country, which is at the very least equal to some of the best silicon valley has to offer, at nearly half the rates. Lord forbid we target foreign contracts and the company can pay near US rates. I'd pilfer everyone's engineering department ;)

Overworked, underpaid, extremely competent was my experience of Taiwanese engineering. Google is good to step up in Taiwan - I believe it will pay dividends for them. I wonder what the Google work culture and salaries are like for their Taipei 101 office engineers? Last I checked it was about 2,000$/month for entry level.

<comment><USER3> > I feel like Taiwan represents a talent opportunity like no other.

Yup.

When I was in Korea I met a few Taiwanese that my employer poached from Asus, HTC, Benq, ...

The state of their tech scene seemed quite dire. They would easily double their salary in Korea, for a pretty similar CoL. Eventually most got fed up with the Korean work culture and left for even higher salaries in... mainland China!

<comment><USER4> A lack of language/cultural barriers would work well for those who go to mainland China. 5-10% of Taiwanese currently reside on the mainland, due largely to China granting long term resident status (with full rights to work and public services) to virtually everyone. It's a masterstroke in increasing ties and knowledge transfer while undermining the island's economy through brain drain.

<comment><USER5> Yup, that easily fits in the evil genius category

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I visited Taiwan recently and was shocked by the weird economics there. Rent, food, clothing, and labor are extremely cheap. Foreign goods and property are insanely expensive. It's clear there's wealth, as I saw several dozen rare BMWs and Audis, and some Lambos, Ferraris, Bentleys. But then I read that the average annual salary of a new university graduate is $11,000 USD.

It's also a very friendly place to foreigners. I'm surprised there aren't any enterprising people jumping from Shenzhen to Taipei now that Shenzhen is so expensive.

<comment><USER7> If you're a Taiwan local that is able to sell the local talent in the form of offshore services for even 70% of US rates or even just have a remote job that pays well, you will have a Lambo/early retirement/whatever faster than you know it, because you will be able to save the entirety of your post-tax salary.

<comment><USER8> As someone who is doing exactly that I can confirm!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am glad to see Taiwan getting this type of attention from a major tech company. Taiwan's economy really needs an economic lift, after decades of brain drain and economic dominance by the People's Republic of China, the United States, and Japan.

I am concerned, though, that this is Google's way of getting around issues of not being able to operate with a free hand in China, i.e. it will serve as a platform for developing Chinese-language services and be ready to release them in the PRC when they can do so without attracting negative attention. There's some history of this -- in the 90s and 2000s it was a common strategy among global corporations to launch and iterate ideas and products in Taiwan before moving them over to China.

ETA:

Another more depressing assessment: Google is placing a bet on annexation, as the PRC has repeatedly insisted it will do by any means necessary (see "Xi Jinping Warns Taiwan That Unification Is the Goal and Force Is an Option," [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/world/asia/xi-jinping- tai...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/01/world/asia/xi-jinping-taiwan- china.html))

<comment><USER10> >Google is placing a bet on annexation

Why would that possibly be a reason to invest in Taiwan? Unless you can somehow imagine that "annexation" is a purely _de jure_ arrangement that leaves Taiwan's regulatory structure untouched ( _very_ unlikely), any corporate structure you erect will have to be totally rebuilt upon annexation (employment law changes, people move, etc); if you're _lucky_ you can keep the buildings (assuming they aren't bombed).

The better reason IMO would be that Taiwan is at this point cheaper than Japan or South Korea, safer than mainland SE Asia, and has (much) more room for growth than Singapore. As a base of operations in East Asia it is one of the best choices, political stability notwithstanding.

<comment><USER11> > safer than mainland SE Asia

Safer in what sense? crime? traffic? other?

<comment><USER10> I was primarily thinking about corruption and political stability, and civil rights (particularly women's rights) are a concern wrt Malaysia, which otherwise leads in the EDBI for the region.

<comment><USER11> Got it, thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I lived in Taiwan for a couple of years. The cost of living is also extremely low, which will benefit Google and many other companies that open offices there.

A nice apartment in a great part of town was only around $350/month USD. I also had the benefit of making US wages contracting at the time.

<comment><USER2> > I also had the benefit of making US wages contracting at the time.

Ohhh, do tell more. This is my plan sometime over the next 5 years. Lived there as a broke English teacher in my early 20s, can't wait to go back as a working engineer.

<comment><USER12> I quit my job before I left with enough to last me about 6 months, in savings, just in case I needed it for expenses, etc.

While I was there, I started consulting and found a remote gig that didn't really care where I was located. The only downside is that you are now 12 hours off from the EST timezone in the US.

Morning meetings are now your night-time, which can be inconvenient, and you just won't be able to communicate during part of the day, but I was able to make it work.

If you want to stay longer than 3 months, you will either need to study Mandarin (which I did) and get a student visa (you will need to find a university/school that will allow you to do this..which is pretty affordable) or do a visa run where you leave and come back (I think you can do this up to 2 years).

I studied Mandarin for about a year and then traveled around Asia every few months for another year. It was a great experience.

I wanted to do this since I was 19..but couldn't make it happen until I was 30. The only issue I had was that making friends with other expats was difficult.

Most expats are in their early 20s and only interested in partying and drinking every night and teaching English during the day. If that sounds like a disaster, it is.

Many of the English schools also aren't really picky about the teachers they hire, so you will get some people that shouldn't be anywhere near a classroom..especially with elementary aged kids.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I think Taiwanese engineering is a great bunch of seemingly underpaid developers. I visited Taiwan for 2 weeks from India and had a few observations:

1\. Food and transport are quite cheap. So cheap that almost everyone eats out for all their meals.

2\. Everyone stays far from the office. They said the area around the offices is expensive but the rent I heard did not sound so high. Most of my friends in Mumbai, India already pay rent close to that figure and they get by just fine.

3\. Consumerism is quite high. Almost everyone in the office had fancy clothes and gadgets which are usually considered signs of good wealth in India.

My conclusion was that people are not paid a lot, and they spend a lot of what they make on clothes and gadgets but that is just the picture I could paint.

Would appreciate some input from people who have more knowledge about Taiwanese culture.

</comment><comment><USER14> I think this is a great opportunity for some Asia-oriented Americans. I lived in Japan, and the quality of life there is amazing when compared to what we get in US cities. The problem is that most Japanese companies are terrible to work for. If you work for Google but live in a modernized Asian country, you can probably get the best of both worlds.

</comment><comment><USER15> When I visited last AWS was planning to open a large data center near taipei with similar AI ambitions. It's a small island and it's interesting to me that these two giants are both headed there with similar projects in mind.

</comment><comment><USER16> Good for Google –– and smart to open in the sovereign democracy of Taiwan rather than China.

</comment><comment><USER17> After google acquired HTC's mobile department, the salary in google Taiwan is localized too. One day, the world-wide capitalist finally realized: "Wow, we can hire good engineer with pennies...in Taiwan."

</comment><comment><USER18> In 5 days:

"whoops nevermind"

</comment><comment><USER19> How long until the office is closed as a result of PRC protestations?

<comment><USER20> PRC can dream all they want but they have no authority on the island.

<comment><USER21> At the end of the day, laws and authority are just a bunch of humans playing make believe with each other.

It all comes down to enforcement. Without enforcement, laws and authority are meaningless.

Take the USA and England as analogous to Taiwan and China.

In the 1700s, England had a "One-England policy" and claimed authority over the US colonies. The US colonies disagreed. Some of the international community acknowledged the One-England policy. Some didn't.

At the end of the day England tried to enforce their authority/laws and lost. Thus, England actually didn't have authority over the US colonies.

I suspect something similar may happen someday with Taiwan (though hopefully with less violence than the American Revolutionary War).

<comment><USER22> A key difference is that the governments of the British colonies in North America were officially installed by, and reported to, Britain.

cf. the Taiwanese government, the KMT, which at one point controlled the mainland, but was pushed into exile on Taiwan by the communists. The existence of a free Taiwan threatens the legitimacy of the communist government on the mainland: the PRC, like most propaganda-fueled authoritarian regimes, does not like anything that suggests there's an alternative to their system.

<comment><USER23> It's also just not a good analogy because Britain didn't have missiles pointed across the strait, or a humongous military that Taiwan has even acknowledged they can't contend with. Diplomacy is the only thing that's kept Taiwan free in the current state of affairs.

<comment><USER24> Well, the threat of nuclear war with the U.S. also helps with stability a bit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Interesting. If I were Taiwanese, I would be very wary of the aspirations, and perhaps keep a #BlockSidewalk campaign idling in the driveway. I don't trust Google's ability to steward and govern a thoughtful city-building project that respects local agency and cares to tread softly around local power and autonomy

<comment><USER26> The article is not about Project Sidewalk or smart cities, it's about opening an office campus.

<comment><USER25> I recognize that. But it's plainly a big connected operation, at least until we break it up. They operate via succession -- one subsidiary moves in and helps create space for the next.

fwiw, you do people a disservice when you assume they don't know what they're talking about, just because you don't see the connection. If you took a second to offer me good faith and maybe presumed I'd read the article, then you could have responded with substance or asked a question, like a curious person might. Or not -- I wouldn't particular mind if you passed by. But your response was condescending and silly. What you said was obvious, and so the implication for others to follow was that I'd simply read the title and you were "calling me out". Basically, I feel very hackernews'd through our small interaction :/

Disclaimer: I've spent months on a civic research fellowship in Taipei. I live in Toronto. I've done community organizing in both. I work in tech. I have tons of experience with both places and topics -- not just an article.

<comment><USER26> I downvoted the comment because you didn't connect what you were saying to the article, and so the comment reads as off-topic. Google has offices in dozens (if not hundreds) of cities around the world and has only launched Sidewalk in one of them, so it's not clear that a new Taipei office would lead to a Sidewalk launch there.

I hope this makes sense. I unfortunately cannot remove the downvote at this point.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google Android Captures #1 Position in U.S. Smartphone Market - clark-kent http://comscore.com/Press_Events/Press_Releases/2011/3/comScore_Reports_January_2011_U.S._Mobile_Subscriber_Market_Share

<comment><AUTHOR> These data spell significant trouble for Microsoft in the smartphone market. Despite launching Windows Phone 7 (WP7) with great fanfare in November 2010, Microsoft's market share in smartphones has in fact declined 1.7% from October 2010 through January 2011.

<comment><USER2> They weren't many phones supporting WP7 until recently. I think you will see that number grow slowly. They're a bit late to the party. I think it's a better OS than Android in my view. That said, the only people I know with WP7 are .NET developers ;)

<comment><USER3> The fact that .NET developers are the ones buying WP7 phones might be a positive sign for the platform. WP7 needs apps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> #1 in volume doesn't always mean #1 in profit.

I'm guessing Apple is trying to grab hard onto the market segment that brings in the most profit, while Google is going for the commodity, high volume, low margin option.

The good news is that both models can coexist in the same market. After all, Nintendo's strategy is a bit like Google's, while Microsoft and Sony's are more like Google's. Nintendo has been quite profitable for a very long time even when they didn't own the entire market.

<comment><USER5> > Apple is trying to grab hard onto the market segment that brings in the most > profit, while Google is going for the commodity, high volume, low margin > option.

Hardly. Google doesn't make phones.

<comment><USER4> Google "makes" advertising though, the more eyeballs it can get in front of, the better for its model.

<comment><USER6> Exactly. Google has supplanted Microsoft in the OS business. If you remember, Microsoft's business model was to commoditize PCs. Microsoft won when Dell and HP raced each other to the bottom on margins.

Now I see history repeating itself, only this time the handset makers have _two_ people trying to squeeze them into commodity providers competing on price: (1) Google and (2) The Carriers.

<comment><USER7> Has anyone ever taken the time to explain why the apparently scary prospect of people "racing to the bottom" is bad for me as a consumer or member of society?

The original usage was about states competing by offering better terms to corporations. These "better terms" were worse for the people living in the state because they got less tax income and less worker protection. But they are the vendors in that analogy, the customer/corporation was very happy with how things worked out.

Am I really supposed to shed tears over a corporation's business model being a bit more like operating in a free market?

<comment><USER6> Your point is entirely orthogonal to my point, so I am quite comfortable that following your digression does not undermine my comment in any way.

What I will say about Android handset makers racing each other to the bottom is that what is good for you as a consumer is when entire products compete against each other. The trouble with looking at handsets is that they aren't really whole and complete products. They need an OS/Ecosystem/Theme Park and they need a carrier's service to complete them.

What is best for consumers is when there is competition for all the elements of the stack from top to bottom, either in packages (iOS on iPhone on AT&T vs. Android on Nokia on Sprint) or individually. I don't know how things will play out in the Android "space," but from what I've seen so far, the big nut to crack for consumers is the carriers, not the hardware and not the OS.

When text messages are less than a penny each, I will know that the entire stack is competing in a way that is good for consumers.

<comment><USER7> From that comment, I'll assume you're not in Europe. We've had the telecoms regulated somewhat sensibly and "racing to the bottom" for a while. And while it's not perfect I will note that during my last foray into purchasing phone contracts it seemed fairly difficult to avoid getting infinite text messages thrown into the deal (though I did manage it since I got a very cheap, effectively data-only plan which is all I needed).

<comment><USER6> _I'll assume you're not in Europe_

'fraid not. Here in Canada, the Oligopolistic situation seems worse (if that can be imagined) than in the US. It is possible to buy bundles with effectively unlimited text messaging, but overall the situation for Internet and wireless telephony is anything but an efficient, competitive market.

So, "Yay for Europe!"

<comment><USER7> Just to clarify on the texts: The very cheapest monthly (as in a single month long contract) deal I could find came with, by default, infinite texts (and these are cross-network texts, which a quick Google suggests seems to be a restriction on Verizon in the U.S. even when you pay an additional surcharge for texts each month, the price of which alone is higher than my entire monthly bill).

I'm sure you've been able to pay extra for a ridiculous numbers of texts for a good while, but now they seem to have dropped to be very roughly in line with their actual cost, which I believe is indistinguishable from zero to the networks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting sidebar in the comscore report: In the continuously contentious debate as to whether the future of mobile apps are downloaded or browser- based, we see a gain in both, but native apps seems to have had a marginal edge in gain.

Would be cool to see this data over a longer window.

Used browser; 36.2%; 37.0%; 0.8 Used downloaded apps; 33.7%; 35.3%; 1.6

<comment><USER9> I wonder how much of the gain in app usage can be attributed to the new version of the Android market, which I think shipped during this time period. We'd have to see app usage by platform stats for that though I guess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I hope this serves as a wakeup call to Apple, that their position is not so unassailable that they can continue looking for new ways to drive away partners and developers without consequences.

<comment><USER11> Why? Apple makes much of the profit. A report claims that Apple makes with 4% global market share 50% of the profits: [http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/01/31/apples_4_mobil...](http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/01/31/apples_4_mobile_market_share_rakes_in_over_half_the_industrys_profit.html)

Google does not even really sell a phone. Google sells you, the user.

<comment><USER12> They currently make most of the profit. But with declining market share puts those profits in severe danger in the future.

And god, if I never heard the "Google sells you" line again, it would be too soon. Apple has an ad platform too, you know.

<comment><USER13> > But with declining market share puts those profits in > severe danger in the > future.

Can someone explain, how this got upvoted? 50% of profits with just 4% of market share, the article we ar discussing there sates that Apple's market share _grew_ (6,4 to 7 percent in OEM, 24.6 to 24.7 in total smartphones market. Even more—Apple was the only growing besides Google), and somehow "declining market share" gets upvoted? Add 20x revenues of App Store vs. Android market and 9,5 billions made by iPad in _just nine months_ — all that is somehow "severe danger" to Apple's profits?

<comment><USER14> It is an outsized threat to their profits vs. what you might expect based on linear extrapolation. Up until quite recently they've basically been able to collect monopoly rent. It is quite likely they will not be able to do so by this time next year. It is entirely possible that they will lose this ability this year, with the speed this market has been moving with.

Especially if iPhone users start to migrate to Android. While Apple partisans will swear up and down this is simply Not Possible (TM), it in fact is completely possible. Broadly speaking, most Americans will choose to save money and get something "good enough" over something perfect. Even if I stipulate that Android will never be more than "good enough", a statement I would not necessarily agree with but let's go with it, you will still find a lot of not-Apple-partisans getting peeled off proportionally to the price delta between the iPhone and the Android. In which case Apple will either have to drop prices and profits or firmly entrench itself as the high-margin, low- sales player... and drop profits. There really isn't a scenario in which Apple gets to be the high-margin, high-sales player that some people seem almost desperate to believe will be the outcome, but even mighty Apple with its Steve-Jobs-powered RDF can't actually flout economic realities, only harness them.

<comment><USER10> "Even if I stipulate that Android will never be more than "good enough", a statement I would not necessarily agree with but let's go with it, you will still find a lot of not-Apple-partisans getting peeled off proportionally to the price delta between the iPhone and the Android. In which case Apple will either have to drop prices and profits or firmly entrench itself as the high- margin, low-sales player... and drop profits."

With iPod, Apple played this almost perfectly, driving down their component prices by always being the single biggest customer of their suppliers, then deciding how long they could charge a premium versus lowering prices to keep the delta with competitors prices from getting too large. They kept the prices close enough that most consumers were willing to pay the premium for the Apple brand.

I actually think they will do the same thing with iPhone. They are getting close to having the previous iPhone version a "free" throw in with new contract, and there are rumors of Apple developing an even lower version for pay-as-you-go contracts.

I think angering content providers is a much bigger risk for Apple right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Well, I called that one. Where do I sign up to be a technologist. Or do I need to be wrong for that job?

<comment><USER16> Nice, that made me laugh.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Look at this momentum <http://plixi.com/photos/original/82369712>

</comment><comment><USER18> This is so funny. Android is gaining it's share and everyone is trying to create iPhone killer. Noone is doing an Android killer:)

<comment><USER19> It's because all Android has done is blurred the line between smart phone and feature phone. It's Android phones now that are the free and BOGO phones and that's exactly what Google wants--a base out there that they cannot be excluded from for their primary business, advertising.

ex.: [http://macdailynews.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/110303_andro...](http://macdailynews.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/110303_android_liquidation.jpg?w=590&h=471)

<comment><USER20> Dear US writers: $0 Upfront is not a "free" phone. $50 Upfront is not a "Cheap" phone.

I can get a "Free" iPhone 4 32GB on any carrier I like in Australia.

// This doesn't mean that Android isn't undercutting apple on price -- but that $0 / $50 / $200 upfront are not meaningful in any way

<comment><USER19> Dear non-US writers: This article is specifically about US smartphones.

"Google Android Captures #1 Position in _U.S._ Smartphone Market"

<comment><USER21> 0$ phones are also not magically "free" in the US. You pay it with your monthly bills down the line. The subsidized price is never a meaningful metric for comparison, it is in itself not a reasonable metric for comparisons.

I have always been puzzled by this attitude which seems to be rampant with Americans. Don't you notice something's up when somebody offers you something for "free"?

<comment><USER22> > 0$ phones are also not magically "free" in the US.

Yes, they are -- the only benefit will be contract/no-contract. Pay full price and come back two years later and tell me it's not free.

> The subsidized price is never a meaningful metric for comparison

It's not subsidized when you pay the same monthly rate regardless (T-Mobile being the exception)

> I have always been puzzled by this attitude which seems to be rampant with > Americans

It's not an attitude; it's an acceptance of reality. I'd like a discount with Verizon if I bring my own phone but I'm not counting on it anytime soon. Not sure what's puzzling about that.

<comment><USER21> Wow. You pay the same price even if you bring your own phone?! That's just crazy. How is that even possible? You should get pitchforks!

The phones are obviously still subsidized, you just don't get a phone for free. It's just that they presumably also overcharge you if you bring your own phone. Wow! That wouldn't fly in Europe.

<comment><USER22> Yes, it's screwed up but just the way it is.

I think it stems from incompatible networks (GSM vs CMDA).

Since you can't take an out-of-contract phone anywhere else (with some exceptions), signing a new contract for a free or reduced-priced phone is your best option. Other companies can't use reduced rates as an incentive to bring in newly-out-of-contract customers with a perfectly working phone.

It's created a consumer mentality where getting your phone from the carrier is just the way it's done and signing a contract is the best value.

> It's just that they presumably also overcharge you if you bring your own > phone.

Sure, you can look at it that way but the average consumer here has accepted that you get your phone from the carrier so the idea of being overcharged doesn't even cross their mind. They look at it as getting something in return for signing a contract and making a commitment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> iPhone is only one small piece of the iOS puzzle, though - iPod touches and iPads add a not-small chunk to iOS' marketshare.

<comment><USER24> Yes, but that does not invalidate the data presented here. It is worth comparing smartphones, to see how others are fairing in this market segment, and it is worth comparing entire OS marketshare, to see what everyone is using.

Apple is doing well, and Android is doing amazingly well.

<comment><USER25> I don't know about amazingly. It seems entirely predictable: phone makers desperate for something to rival iOS, and Google provide it for free. Why would they turn it down? Android's popularity, in a funny sort of way, is actually indicative of the iPhone's _lack_ of serious competition. What would be amazing is if one of the Android handsets outsold the iPhone.

<comment><USER14> That's begging the question; since Android is not a serious competitor to the iPhone, the fact that Android is doing so well is therefore proof that Android is not a serious competitor to the iPhone. You neglected to spell out that first clause but your statement is clearly based on that.

I'd suggest the much more plausible line of logic, along with being logically sound, is that as Android is now outselling the iPhone, the Android _is_ a serious competitor to the iPhone. Pretty much by definition of "serious competitor". Will you still be dismissing it as "not a serious competitor" when Android outsells the iPhone by a factor of two? Because I rather expect it to only be a matter of time.

<comment><USER26> First off, like many Android fans, you insist on comparing an operating system to a single phone. It would be a shock if a free OS on multiple phones _didn't_ outsell a single phone. However, the word "outsell" is a weird one, because Android doesn't cost anything, so it's not Android that's outselling anything--it's the total sum of the multiple phones that just happen to run Android compared to the one phone that runs iOS. Almost all of Android's market share gains came at RIM's expense, not Apple's.

Android is not a serious competitor for Apple because it's not making Google money. It has a negligible app presence and a fragmentation problem. iOS is still what guides the industry, it's what people talk about, it's what Android is copying (Android was going to look totally different before the iPhone came out in 2007), and it's where the developers are.

It took an operating system with no price tag and the promise of total control for the carriers to outsell a single phone. That's a big deal. Even then, not one single Android handset outsells the iPhone on its own, and the iPad still has no legitimate competitors.

More importantly, Apple make huge profits on iOS devices. It has the developers, and it gets the press attention. Android makes no money for Google, barely has developers, and is known as the geeky platform for cross- armed OSS evangelists who hate Apple. It's also experiencing a non-trivial rise in malware--two negative articles came out today in major news outlets. Sorry, but Android is not a serious competitor for Apple.

<comment><USER27> The post above is exactly why I left Hacker News. The level of discourse here has descending to the prattle that you read in the Engadget comments. Yes, everyone here has read all of the talking points (boring, boring, really old talking points). Many phones versus a few. Many makers. Profit margin.

Seriously, how incredibly boring.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> _American_ smartphone market.

<comment><USER29> The world market as well: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us- google-nokia-id...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/31/us-google-nokia- idUSTRE70U1VW20110131)

<comment><USER30> Well, the OP's headline is about phone _models_ and your rank is about _operating systems_. Is still don't know what phone model is #1 in the world.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Again?

<comment><USER32> It seems like we get this story every week.

<comment><USER17> I'd say it's because there are different milestones that people - fanboys, media, companies - set. There's so many ways to measure. Daily activations, current total market penetration... then there are variables like location (US or global?), range (smartphones or all mobile devices?)... Android is just winning them one by one, and this specific one happens to be one of the most important metrics, IMO.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> We've seen this coming for quite some time. Both Google and Apple have very apparent opposing strategies in how they're going to attract customers to their respective platforms. It's almost like watching Mac vs Windows all over again. Apple is shooting for higher quality and high-end customers, while Google is aiming for a higher scale and much wider user base. In the end, both should co-exist and serve their niche just like Mac and Windows.

</comment><comment><USER34> Er... why is HTC not in the list?

<comment><USER7> The first chart is all phones, not just smartphones and HTC only sell smartphones. You either have to sell lots of dumbphones too (like Samsung and LG) or sell a whole bunch of smartphones (RIM and Apple).

I'm not sure whether Motorola is there mostly on the strengths of smartphone sales alone or combined with dumbphones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Somewhat off-topic: is there any reason _not_ to get Virgin Mobile's $150 LG Optimus V for the purpose of exploring Android development? Aside from smaller memory and lower-res camera, it looks like I don't miss out on anything from top of the line models.

<comment><USER36> I just wish I could afford one. Can you still use the pay-as-you-go plans with this one?

<comment><USER37> More or less. Virgin Mobile is a no contract provider, you pre-pay for each month of service as you go. All the plans are unlimited (~5gigs) data/ unlimited texts - $60 gets you unlimited voice, $25 gets you 300 minutes, and there is something in the middle at $40/mo. The $25/mo is the best US deal for a capable android phone that I know of. You do need to pick from these plans though, you can't use their x cents a minute pay as you use it plan afaik.

EDIT: Link to the thread (thanks georgie) about it being $129 w/ $20 gift card at target. Damn good deal, note the one I played with worked fine over wifi before it was activated with VM. Sale started yesterday: [http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=27...](http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=2720701)</comment></comment></comment>