Letting go of the GPS to learn the art of natural navigation - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/06/ditching-the-satnav-the-lost-secrets-of-natural-navigation <comment><USER2> Fascinating article. I love getting lost in Tokyo too. Here are a couple of tips I could add in case of Tokyo...

* All the TV antennas point at Tokyo Sky Tree.

* All the regional train tracks (except Yamanote) are radial. They're all going toward Yamanote Line.

* Major named streets (except "Kanjo" or circular streets) go to the Emperor Palace.

* Tokyo is a city carved by rivers, so it has many ups and downs. Pay attention to town names that are typically indicative of its configuration, e.g. -yama (mountain), -oka (hill), -tani/-gaya (valley), -saka (slope) etc.

* Beware of subway lines and subway exits because their shapes are very unpredictable, with confusing station names.

</comment><comment><USER3> Looking at the title, I guessed this would be an article about Tristan Gooley, and yes, it was - I read "The Walker's Guide to Outdoor Clues & Signs" and it was both entertaining and informative. If you do outdoor activities, it is a nice supplement (even if you keep using GPS etc). Just parsing the environment a bit better is so much fun and kind of deepens the experience.

I recently started to watch the birds as well when hiking, and that again gave more depth and makes me feel more a part of nature. The example in the article of loud bird cacophony as a sign for something interesting happening is a good one. I was in Berlin's largest park yesterday, with birds tweeting around everywhere, but at some point, it was a bit off, so I stopped and started looking, and sure enough, there was a beautiful buzzard hunting.

Trees are the kind of obvious thing to watch, and they tell a lot about the environment. The next thing I'll try to get a better understanding for is weather phenomena (actually the most helpful thing to learn for outdoor activities as it can save your life). There's also a similar book by Gooley on how to "read water" which looks interesting.

<comment><USER4> Tristan Gooley was interviewed on the Rough Guide podcast late last year: [https://pca.st/RvTf](https://pca.st/RvTf) I found his approach to staying oriented fascinating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> GPS is a great way to get from point A to point B without learning the first thing about the location that the route guidance software is navigating for you. If you're only passing through, fine. But you just don't build the same mental model of an area when you don't have to think about it. When the phone dies or there's no reception, you're utterly helpless. When I'm navigating my local areas, I only use a map application to plan routes and occasionally to correct course (like you'd use a physical map). I'd encourage everyone to give it a shot. Don't be a foreigner in your own city!

<comment><USER6> But maps give you additional advantage such as , live traffic due to which I save time by taking a different route (may be caused due to an accident or other reason)

<comment><USER7> Cell phone maps are utterly useless in too many situations. A lack of reception being one. Or equally as bad -- too much reception, as in competing GPS and cell triangulation signals bouncing off buildings in a dense urban environment.

People always make the excuse that you can just download the maps into the phone. But that wouldn't have helped me in the places I've been over the last two weeks when my phone repeatedly went into thermal shutdown because the ambient air temperature was too hot. (No, I don't have a case that traps the heat.)

If I relied on electronic maps, I'd be lost or dead or both by now.

(Even better than paper maps are maps printed on cloth, which you can get wet, roll into a ball and stuff into your jeans, etc... But those are kind of rare.)

<comment><USER8> If you're going into a situation where you'll end up lost or dead, then certainly yes do not rely on electronic maps.

For the average GPS-using situation, the worst case scenario is they you to start reading road signs or stop ask for help. In these cases, a GPS navigator can be very handy, such as on a road trip I took last year through an area where an earthquake had shut down a significant portion of the road network. Either I sit for hours and pour over lists of road closures and construction dates and cross them off my paper map (the info changes monthly so there aren't any preprinted maps), or just use an app that already knows everything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'd love some kind of GPS mode that just gave the most important or trickiest directions, then was completely silent for the rest of the trip.

I know how to get out of my neighborhood and onto the northbound freeway. I'll never need directions to do this. I know I'll be driving for 30 minutes. I just need the exit to take when it's coming up, and a few tricky turns near the destination. Just give me that and I'll figure out the rest.

<comment><USER10> A related thing I'd like is a navigation system which understands that some turns are not important. If I'm driving on a Manhattan-style grid, I'd like it to say "You could turn here if you want, but straight is good too." I'd probably go straight if it's green and I'm doing 45, but if I'm at the head of the queue and it's red, I'd rather turn right.

<comment><USER11> Or maybe a navigation system that has a bit of personality. I feel like they've remained robotic while companies try to inject a personality into their personal assistant counterparts.

<comment><USER8> It used to be a thing to download celebrity voices to your TomTom. John Cleese was popular.

There's a Japanese navigation app that has a bunch of anime voice actresses doing different stereotypical characters. You take a wrong turn and they scold you, or ask if you're feeling OK [http://maplus- sp.jp/voice_list.html?ct=cvi1](http://maplus-sp.jp/voice_list.html?ct=cvi1)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear mentioned in passing, that you should always program your navigation device so that north is up, not direction of travel is up, and (in his typical hyperbolic manner) "you'll never get lost again.".

I liked this tip, it shows me the general direction I'm going (east/west/south), not "up" through an unfamiliar geography that morphs when you turn.

<comment><USER13> Oh my, I find it so annoying when maps in public places don't have north up.

Usually when I'm in a new place, before leaving my hotel I look at the map and I remember where to go, which turn to take etc. There only problem is metro - I don't know which exit to take, so I always check the map of the area at the metro station. So I look at the map, I know the street I'm going to is in the south, but I cannot find it. Only then I remember to look around the corners of the map, and then I realize, that south is on the right!

I've been wondering why don't just all maps have north up, and I could never come with a very good explanation.

<comment><USER14> Barcelona is one place where this happens. The coast goes SW - NE but many maps are aligned to make it look going north - south. We got lost once trying to navigate west :)

<comment><USER15> Ha. Can't believe someone mentioned Barcelona. Went to London and a few other European cities and my cheapo-wrist compass made it so easy to navigate.

Then we reached Barcelona, where every damn road is at a 45 degree angle! Argh. It's not trivial -- at least when you've had several sangrias -- to stand at an intersection, facing NE, and then try to figure out whether to turn left or right to go SE. (Yes, yes... In sure someone here will reply as to how simple it all is... But, keep in mind the sangrias...)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Once I was travelling through Morocco and the general advice I got from other turists even before the trip was "don't trust the gps". It turned out the medinas (old towns) themselves were so densly packed, that you could not see much of the sky to get any lock on satellites, and the internet coverage was very spotty.

And you "had" to learn how to read paper maps, because otherwise you'd fall pray to the many "tourist guides" that will scam you for 5-10 bucks each time, or worse. In that unique environment, where there's a need and a threat model, you get the hang of it pretty quickly, and boy oh boy was it worth it, after the inital bit were you "learn the map" I could navigate the busy winding streets of marakesh with confidence, spending way more time looking at the splendor of the souk(bazaar), choosing "alternative" routes to explore new areas, while having this worm "at home" feeling.

And that "skill" persisted for quite aome time after the trip. We had an orientation challenge team building event, and my tream beat everyone handily mainly because of the medina training I got :)

<comment><USER17> I haven't been in all medinas of Morocco, but never had a problem with GPS there, have you actually tried to use it? :) I think the only place where I really had a problem were Caruggi of Genoa.

One tip to have a better location awareness with electronic map is to enable trip recording, if you see your previous way you can sort of continue walking "inertially".

<comment><USER18> I did try using Google Maps on my phone in Marrakesh a few years back and it failed completely and left me with an astounding data roaming charge.

Easier to pay a local to walk you back to your hotel if you get completely lost!

<comment><USER19> Nowadays Google Maps lets you download an area ahead of time, and then use it offline.

<comment><USER20> Still doesn't help since Marrakech medina has practically no streets drawn in on GMaps / OSM and you're not getting a GPS lock worth a damn. Your phone will just put you somewhere a few 10m off which can easily be another snaky street.

Maps are awesome there.

(This is experience from this year.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I just had a discussion about this with a friend of mine, Jaffar Salih (we studied Interaction Design together so topics like this fascinate us), and what he remarked is that navigation apps could actually be _educational tools_ for learning to navigate yourself. They just need to add clear markers of landmarks in their route descriptions.

Even more interesting: since Google already keeps track of where you are very often, it could use your favourite shawarma place or regular bus stop as a "personalised landmark". to give you things to orient by and help you connect the dots and fill in the gaps. Same thing with familiar routes.

My "counter-argument" was that it was not in Google Maps's interests to make you _less_ dependent on their navigation app. But maybe someone should get on making an OSM-based kind of app that does it instead.

</comment><comment><USER22> A classic book is "Cross Country Navigation" by Neil Phillips and Rod Phillips (1989), aimed at the sport of Rogaining. It emphasises navigation by using the surrounding landscape and its features, rather than trying to impose a rigid coordinate system on the landscape. In this way, one works with the landscape, continually adapting to follow the (quickest) path of least effort, rather than trying to blast through on a preconceived "best" course. The philosophy is the same, whether one is inside or outside a city. It's sort of like Parkour on a large scale.

[https://www.worldcat.org/title/cross-country- navigation/oclc...](https://www.worldcat.org/title/cross-country- navigation/oclc/27609102)

</comment><comment><USER23> "Look for satellite dishes. They all point towards the equator. In London, that is roughly south-southeast."

If by "roughly south-southeast" you mean "south" and by "in London" you mean "in the northern hemisphere" :).

<comment><USER24> Geostationary satellites occupy specific spots over the equator. If you want to catch a satellite from the edge of its reception area, you point the dish quite noticeably eastward or westward. Since the Atlanteans never put up TV satellites, in the UK that means all the dishes are either pointing south or southeast, never southwest. You can often take a surprisingly educated guess at the immigrant ratio of a building just from looking at where the dishes are pointed.

<comment><USER25> In the UK almost every satellite dish will be a minidish and pointing to 28.2E. Sure a few ex-pats will have dishes pointing at other locations, but they won't be the typical sky dish.

That only really works in the UK though. If I go up to the roof of the building I'm in now, I see some dishes pointing east, some west, and some directly up (well almost)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Something I loved about living in Bogota, was how easy it was to navigate there.

The whole city was built on a grid, with the east-west streets increasing in number as you went north. And the North-south streets increasing in number as you go east to west.

There is a mountain range to the east, so if you can see the mountains, and know what streets you're on, you can always find your way

<comment><USER27> Something i love about much of Tokyo is many of the streets curve and twist which makes walking around feel like an adventure of things to be discovered vs just a utility of getting from here to there. I agree curvy street cities are harder to navigate but I find them much more romantic.

<comment><USER3> They can both be helpful. The grid system is great for getting from coordinate (a,b) to (c,d). Much better than a natural city core as most older european cities have (and I mean old in the european meaning, i.e. >1000 years). But grids are extremely bad for mental mapping, as they are virtually featureless. So to remember your paths in a city without the coordinate system, it is much more helpful if the place has curves and outstanding features and little weirdnesses and so on (you can have outstanding sites along the way on a grid as well obviously, but because the streets are all just long tunnels, you will almost never see anything of it except for extremely tall parts like the mentioned mountains outside, or very high buildings).

<comment><USER28> For me grids are way better for mental mapping!

Each street and intersection has different buildings, stores and vibe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm guessing GPS has saved more marriages than any other modern technology.

<comment><USER30> Counterpoint: the automatic ice-maker

<comment><USER31> I'm very confused and interested. What do you mean by that?

<comment><USER32> [https://youtu.be/oM51OMn3Kdk](https://youtu.be/oM51OMn3Kdk)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Kinda like pilots learning to land again.

[https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction- pilot...](https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/automation-addiction-pilots- forgetting-fly/story?id=14417730)

</comment><comment><USER34> "the sun rises in the east, sets in the west and moves through the southern sky"

That last part is dependent on your latitude, correct? If you were far enough south, the sun would move through the northern sky, wouldn't it?

<comment><USER25> Yes, and in the tropics it depends on the time of year. For instance I've just been reading this thread on the walk from the hotel to the office in Nairobi. It's about noon, and the sun was high on my right shoulder, so as it's May I was walking West.

When I did the same walk in February at the same time the sun was high on my left shoulder.

However assuming the sun does rise (i.e. you're not in a polar region near the solstices), it will always rise somewhere to the east (even if it's south- south-east) and set somewhere to the west.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> If you really want to learn "natural navigation" but don't want to leave home: [https://www.geoguessr.com/maps/world](https://www.geoguessr.com/maps/world) [https://www.reddit.com/r/geoguessr/](https://www.reddit.com/r/geoguessr/) for tournaments (Warning:Its a major timesink)

</comment><comment><USER36> I navigate natural instead of using the gps to force the brain to learn the way. Otherwise without using it the geospatial part of the brain gets lazy. One is also forced to ask strangers for directions and help. I World recommend trying more natural navigation. We are evolved to rapidly learn the way through geospatial points ie memory learning techniques like Loki.

</comment><comment><USER37> Toadalone's comment is worth reading: [https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/06/ditchin...](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/06/ditching- the-satnav-the-lost-secrets-of-natural-navigation#comment-115494407)

</comment><comment><USER38> Every now and then, when my wife and I leave a place we've driven to in our car (rare in the city) we'll intentionally go out of the way and make a game of finding our way back. You always get to see a new neighborhood with different character.

Since I mentioned biking, thats also another great way to see a place differently and learn your way around.

<comment><USER39> Having lived in old cities/towns with high traffic, you adapt by finding shortcuts where you can save time on a frequent commute. The bigger the city, the higher average commute time it seems. The longer of a drive you can accumulate those shortcuts too. After getting used to always being on the lookout for a faster route, moving to a smaller metro area, with better, newer infrastructure, it's been an odd mental adjustment. Almost like I forgot how to relax, and now that I can, I still charge ahead. I can see that being a contentious issue in the future with car ownership, vs giant companies just providing transportation, and what sort of greater good compromises will be made to demand safer and safer transportation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Amusing how we let go of some technological item to suddenly re-discover the world.

When I gave up smartphones for a period of time I found myself wondering what I could do to spend the time on my ~1hr commute home. I remember being excited when an old acquaintance caught the same train as me, knowing I could pass the time talking. I ended up getting to know a lot of the Train Transport officers because we'd talk about the weather or some local incident.

Not having Google Maps though - that was not a fun experience at all. Yes, I asked people but usually they didn't know and would whip out their smartphones to consult Google Maps on my behalf. The worst thing is when you're in a rush or when the weather is bad. You can't afford to spend extra time looking for that place you need to be, especially if you're looking for a public toilet in your city.

</comment><comment><USER40> Interesting, I occasionally use GPS in areas I have not been to. My general philosophy is navigation by approximation, slowly closing in on a destination by finding big landmarks first. Its not the most efficient but it makes for great tours and trips when not in a rush.

<comment><USER41> This is exactly me and my friends are doing these days. When we have enough time and we want to go someplace on the other side of the city. Instead of using maps to navigate we follow a general direction to reach a landmark first then look at the map once to see our route from there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> During my time in London I used similar tricks (looking for the sun or finding the BT tower by looking for some window reflections) to find my way after leaving the tube, but then I was taking a vacation in Rio de Janeiro and when I was walking towards to sun to reach the south facing copacabana I had to learn that in Rio the sun is north :-/

At first I felt kinda stupid but then I realized, it was my first time on the southern hemnisphere and until that point the sun was always south of me ;-)

</comment><comment><USER43> I've got no sense of direction. Zero. I can get lost in my own office or go the wrong way down a street I've been down 100 times.

Still, I've noticed that because I bike and walk around when I can I'm much more able to get around San Francisco than most of my friends. You just use a much larger and more generalizable set of "clues" to get around. When you use GPS there's no decision making so you never really learn why you turned on Street X not Street Y.

</comment><comment><USER44> Washington, D.C. has a street name system which, once you know it, can help you get around without a map or anything.

[https://dc.curbed.com/2014/8/13/10061100/facts-and-myths- abo...](https://dc.curbed.com/2014/8/13/10061100/facts-and-myths-about-dcs- street-system)

</comment><comment><USER45> I switch off the navigation sometimes on UK roads. The roads here a signposted well, so it's not really that tough to stay on the right path. It's actually quite a pleasurable drive when you're not continually monitoring the sat nav. Plus, I'm more aware of the road conditions.

</comment><comment><USER46> magic compass only showing the general direction of your target:

android: [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pointtopoi...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pointtopoint&rdid=com.pointtopoint)

iOS [https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/crowsflight/id444185307?mt=8](https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/crowsflight/id444185307?mt=8)

(haven't tried either yet)

</comment><comment><USER47> I remember navigating without GPS. No, but thanks no.

</comment><comment><USER48> The only thing a Marine fears more than a Sailor with a rifle is a Lt with a map and compass.

<comment><USER49> LOL. At least when I was in the Army 2002-2006, they were still teaching land navigation using map, compass, and protractor. GPS-enabled devices were absolutely forbidden on the land nav course. We also did night land nav, which was definitely more difficult :) I would bet the military still teaches folks how to navigate sans-GPS, because assuming GPS would remain available during a conflict with another great power would be... foolish.

Also, north-is-up mode is the only way to go when navigating with your smartphone :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> No thanks. I have a horrible sense of direction and constantly get lost. I could not live without Google Maps any longer.</comment>


Inkscape 1.0.1 - <AUTHOR> https://inkscape.org/news/2020/09/06/inkscape-version-101-patches-crashes-bugs/ <comment><USER2> I absolutely love Inkscape for complex artwork, however I wish it would try to implement better conversion to the official web spec. After saving, I find myself manually optimizing the SVG and sometimes redoing it completely to remove a lot of fluff that isn't needed.

<comment> jarek-foksa You might want to try Boxy SVG [1]. Its UI is heavily inspired by Inkscape.

It tries to use as little non-standard namespaces as possible, e.g. check [2] for a comparison of the markup you get after creating a new file and drawing a single rectangle.

The app uses Chromium rendering engine under the hood, so most files should render the same way as when opened with Chrome.

[1] [https://boxy-svg.com](https://boxy-svg.com)

[2] [https://gist.github.com/jarek- foksa/8f5bdef732827bc2a3bf49e3...](https://gist.github.com/jarek- foksa/8f5bdef732827bc2a3bf49e3e25dc630)

<comment><USER3> And on the Web it is a classical example of "Works only on Chrome", oh well.

<comment> jarek-foksa It works on the latest version of any Chromium-based browser such as Chrome, Vivaldi, Opera, Edge, etc.

<comment><USER4> All of these are just skins over Google's code.

Does even Microsoft make any meaningful contribution to Chromium?

<comment><USER5> They do. Microsoft people were largely responsible for the improved default focus ring and input elements. There have been other notable contributions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like Inscape but I wish they added GPU acceleration, at least for moving things. It's unbearably slow on macOS.

<comment><USER7> Have they finally started shipping builds for Mac that don't depend on X11 to run? Because that'd be a prerequisite for performing halfway decently on macOS.

Inkscape is (speaking generally here, not just about performance) pretty good on Linux, tolerable on Windows, and awful on Mac. That's kind of a hole that a lot of cross-platform apps get stuck in, though-- especially GTK apps (which, historically, haven't supported the Mac well at all), but even QT (which at least tries to automatically adapt to macOS idioms) doesn't quite get it right. MacOS UI conventions are just too far away from Windows and Linux conventions to expect to be able to get them for free.

<comment><USER8> Would it be possible to ship something like Inkscape with a web/browser interface?

<comment><USER9> Yes, browsers (especially Chrome) are capable of doing this. There are a few browser based vector editors (Gravit, Method Draw, Vectr, Janvas, Boxy). None of them is perfect, some are slow, and especially when it comes to complex drawings or advanced features like boolean operations and path offsetting, most of them run into serious issues. But you can expect to see a browser based Inkscape replacement within the next two years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Didn't even know it hit v1. A lot of work went into a patch release though, including features. Seems a little nonstandard, but good job.

<comment><USER11> It's had plenty of coverage here!

Inkscape 1.0 – [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089820](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089820) (533 points/4 months ago/123 comments)

Inkscape 1.0 – [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23071185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23071185) (98 points/4 months ago/6 comments)

Inkscape 1.0 Release Candidate – [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22855357](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22855357) (710 points/5 months ago/156 comments)

Inkscape 1.0 Beta 1 – [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21001969](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21001969) (603 points/12 months ago/165 comments)

Inkscape launches versions 0.92.4 and 1.0 alpha – [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18940568](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18940568) (299 points/2 years ago/68 comments)</comment></comment>


Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers - <AUTHOR> https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/cisco-cited-for-bias-against-us-workers <comment><USER2> This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans.

Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans.

The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering (at the high end) and then migrant farming and illegal immigrant factory workers (at the low end).

<comment><USER3> Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.

<comment><USER4> That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing.

Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its intended effect.

[1] [https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...](https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf)

<comment><USER5> I'm on an iPad so I can't check, but i think the underlying data for H1-B info comes from here: [https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm](https://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/performancedata.cfm) (click 'Disclosure data', download enormous PERM spreadsheet)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > Cisco, which reported $43 billion in revenue last year, employs more than > 73,000 workers at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and international > offices. The company employed nearly 1,600 visa holders last year.

If this number seems low, thats because it is. They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. That they were cited at all for the 1600 visa workers in the first place is astounding to me.

<comment><USER7> > They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are > also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't > show up.

Used to work there. I was always surprised at the volume of contractors and contracting companies were embedded within the ranks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?

<comment><USER9> Oh god, how many burritos have you ate that were made by an ILLEGAL!

<comment><USER10> ... who was underpaid, to a level where properly living is out of the question. Who was abused and threatened into unpaid overtime.

Just saying there's other considerations too. I get that these practices mean that it's likely a better burrito, but it's wrong.

<comment><USER9> You are not doing that person any favor by banning them from the US.

<comment><USER10> That's how it works, isn't it ? They improve the fate of a single person, to a totally unsatisfactorily low level, and thereby drag down everyone.

So yes you're not helping that individual. In fact you're damaging that individual potentially a lot. But you're helping far more people a little bit.

<comment><USER9> What a great humanitarian endeavor, to punish the weakest and most vulnerable for the benefit of the whole.

<comment><USER10> The same can be said about the opposite: allow immigrants to take up the lowest jobs thinking it'll provide a decent life. That is a lie, and steals that opportunity of a decent life from others too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It seems like a good solution to H1B abuse is to get rid of the lottery and move towards a bid system, but the "bid" is the foreign worker's salary. This will solve the wage suppression issue, and will grant access to talent to companies that are willing and able to pay for it.

<comment><USER12> You can also just tax the difference from prevailing wages; take those taxes and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry.

<comment><USER13> In theory all H1B workers already get "prevailing wage". It's part of the law. So the tax would be 0.

The issue is that it really isn't prevailing wage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily. This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are cheaper than normal workers.

When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always acceptable... unless you are caught.

<comment><USER15> That's not greed, that's smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn't have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price?

The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.

<comment><USER16> Might be a controversial opinion, but I think we as humans have lost sight of the ball when we start letting capitalism drive ethics.

<comment><USER9> And what ethics tell you that you should have the right to bar other people from working with other people?

<comment><USER16> For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more money to flow within the US.

For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay and limited mobility.

For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their own economy.

<comment><USER9> > For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more > money to flow within the US.

You mean increase income disparity. More foreign software engineers would lower the median salary of a software engineer in the us, which is in the top bracket of earners. Increasing the salary of software engineers increases income disparity between those and the median.

Also, i thought the point was to make an ethical one, not a money one.

> For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles > the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay > and limited mobility.

Oh why thank you. Did you ask foreign employees if they like your idea of banning them from the US for their own benefit?

> For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than > cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their > own economy.

If you have a concern for the well-being of foreign governments over the interests in the US, you can advocate or better measures than punishing foreign people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> cc-d Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended.

The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.

<comment><USER17> There is no need for an artificial cap, just make it a bidding system. The companies bid for how many workers at salary $X. Highest bids are awarded the visas. Problem solved.

<comment> cc-d This may work for tech, but I'm guessing there are quite a few other industries with low volumes of h1b applicants/workers which could utilize a "bidding system" to hire well below market rate due to decreased demand when compared to tech.

$150k cap across the board ensures that all industries are kept honest. A bidding system can be added on top of that, if needed, but this extremely simple fix would ensure that the system fulfills the original goals it was created for, while adding no bureaucratic overhead.

<comment><USER18> better idea - just make it 25-50% above prevailing wage for that kind of work.

<comment><USER19> Australian here, but had similar ideas about the visa situation in .au however I think you can't just do a +X% of "prevailing wage"

If the prevailing wage is calculated based on an average, you will find big business will get lower payed workers bundled in to the industry average (i.e. apple has retail staff, most companies have call centre staff, all have janitorial staff, etc) and the "prevailing wage" will be significantly lower then it should be.

If its based on job title you will just find every visa holder will have a "lower" job title (i.e. Junior rather then senior) that gives the companies a way to pay less.

Thats before factoring cost of living between various locations.

Special interests will ensure that the prevailing wage is drawn sufficiently lower then it should be.

I think it has to remain a static value (adjusted for inflation) that is quite high (e.g. $180k->$250k AUD for Australia), enough that anyone who a company will pay that much would almost certainly be a world class employee, and if someone is worth that much, then I can't see how they wouldn't be a benefit for both the country / economy, employee and the competitiveness of the company. I have no issue with this being an unlimited visa class, and should be able to be streamlined for a much quicker approval (i.e. has the company signed an agreement that they are paying $X per year?, if yes its approved pending health and security approval).

This allows companies to hire the best in the world, while not allowing them to drive down salaries with similarly skilled employees. Additionally if there is a shortage it will ensure there is some pressure to train / develop employees, innovate, automate, etc, but providing a pressure relief if needed (if supply and demand becomes unbalanced enough that people are willing to pay $180k for janitorial staff, then economically they are needed).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is more common than you'd imagine and it's telling that a company the size of Cisco can't hide it.

Between OPT and H1B the relationship between tech and immigration is grim.

<comment><USER8> Its like the secret everyone knows, but nobody wants to do anything about unless they get caught. Even then when they get caught the worst punishment they will get is a days profit MAYBE. Its easier to pay a $100 million fine every 10 years than to have to pay reasonable wages.

<comment><USER9> It is truly a wonder of the free market that if fights against the discrimination of immigration laws.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> American engineers are getting shafted by the H1B visa program. The H1B work harder because they have a figurative gun pointed at their heads. Work or leave the country. Why would any sane American work that hard?

It is a race to the bottom and the big tech companies at playin with fire. The societal damage is currently unquantifiable, but for an astute observers and people with common sense it's not good.

</comment><comment><USER22> When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.

<comment><USER23> > and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding > this from the other departments

Where does this money come from? This should be budgeted somewhere, so I don't understand how this is "hidden" from others.

Also, if you knew this they probably didn't do a good job of "hiding" it, did they?

<comment><USER24> Not OP, but I spent 5 years at Cisco. It wouldn't be terribly hard to hide opex in a company that size.. there's a good deal of discretion given to middle management with their budgets and non-existent oversight.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I've seen it stated several times here on hacker news that the visas should be available for the highest salaries. And that's it. No lottery. If you want them, pay them. That makes tons of sense to me on a lot of levels, it is going to naturally destroy abuse, recruit the best and brightest to come to the US, and not cause unfair discrimination against American workers.

1,600 visa workers for Cisco seems really low though. Anecdata, but my company hired a VP from Cisco and from that point until they left we made a lot of hires, but not a single American that I am aware of.

</comment><comment><USER26> Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

<comment><USER27> I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers.

One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your neighbor than someone across the world.

I'm not commenting on the validity of those arguments, though, as I think a core part of America's success is being unusually open to immigration.

<comment><USER3> The main problem with globalism is that capital conspires against labor but labor doesn't respond with a unified front.

<comment><USER6> Companies and money can cross borders, people cannot (generally).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> If immigrants are depressing salaries, how do you explain $120,000 (base + stock + bonus) for fresh graduates, paid by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc? [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads- wil...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-will-make-at- companies-like-facebook-and-google-in-2017.html)

It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker. This isn't true. More skilled, educated workers will actually add to the economy — and grow the economy.

Some companies abuse the system, and the abuse must be stopped. But immigration of the best and the brightest is what made this country a superpower, and must be encouraged.

See also: [http://paulgraham.com/95.html](http://paulgraham.com/95.html)

<comment><USER29> There are not unlimited new graduate roles at these companies, Microsoft was telling students they passed the interview but that slots were full at the school I attend.

</comment></comment><comment> cisco-throwaway I work here!

I also participated in this!

We needed to hire a few people at a smaller Cisco site for a project in a less than favourite BU. Recruitment reached out to me after my rec didn't find any fits in a week and the pushed a couple candidates my way. As these candidates required sponsorship, we knew that we could probably retain them for less and for longer. I don't have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for less then I'll jump all over that.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

<comment><USER30> Is 1 week of open rec legally enough to justify hiring an H1B? I thought the legal requirement to justify the petition was longer than that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Worked at another big Californian semiconductor company for several years. Directors/middle managers, mostly Americans, would always joke about how easy it was to get H1Bs hired and all the shady stuff they did to not have to actually advertise the position. They got great bonuses, life was good.

Eventually, {specific H1B subgroup} made up a significant portion of the company as they always continue to hire more of {specific H1B subgroup} at the expense of everyone else. During a downturn several years ago, there was a tremendous layoff to try to maintain profitability.

Most of the old guard, almost all the older higher paid Americans that didn't make it to the VP level, got axed.

You reap what you sow.

</comment><comment><USER18> I think the answer to this problem is to require H1B holders to be paid 25-50% above prevailing wage for that job type or sector, which would preclude just picking up someone on H1B for cost reasons.

<comment><USER9> I heard a story once that in acity with rat infestations, the government proposed a bounty for each rat-tail that could be shown as evidence of having killed a rat. Promptly the rat population increased exponentially.

If you made the race to salary, you can remove health benefits, PTO, stock, restricted bonuses, etc etc to artificially increase the number which would in the end harm the worker as well, since he will pay a higher tax rate for the shenanigan.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I've heard rumors that this is the same at the big O, and for years with the big blue too.

</comment><comment><USER33> H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA.

They should be punished to the fullest.

<comment><USER34> That doesn't add up at all. How can there not be shortage of IT skills? IT is one of if not the most profitable field per employee with the lowest unemployment rates, and IT companies are flush with cash.

IT companies would love to launch entire new products and divisions and recruitment is their bottleneck.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'm curious to see what happens if a company like Huawei enters the US networking hardware market after cutting its teeth. Are we supposed to go with Cisco out of patriotism? Is the general public going to petition the government for protectionism?

I also wonder how long it takes wage suppression to propagate out into lower demand and shrinking GDP growth.

<comment><USER15> I would go with Cisco because I wouldn't trust a company that's essentially a commercial arm of the Chinese MSS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I'd love to see H1B completely done away with. Transferrable visas for non- immigrant status freely available in exchange for a fairly massive bond and annual fee ($50-100k/yr), and immigrant visas on a much less expensive basis based on merit.

</comment><comment><USER37> Something needs to happen for positive change. My Indian friend recently fathered a baby and couldn't see his son almost a year later. Politics getting in the way of people just trying to make the world a better place as per usual.

</comment><comment><USER38> So easy to fix. If you believe in free market, you also need the labor pool to be free. Let H1Bs be able to change jobs like anyone else, and wages will rise. Pretty simple. Indentured servitude is anti free market.

</comment><comment><USER39> If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare to their executives bonuses.

<comment><USER9> They wouldnt pay the fair share. They would hire less people and spend a total amount on salaries that is lower than it is now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Almost ironic that this article is from Bloomberg. Recently interviewed with them for a software engineer role and the only american I talked to out of 6 people, was the recruiter.

<comment><USER41> How do you know that? Did you ask everyone their citizenship /immigration status during the interview?

<comment><USER42> It could be that the GP was using "American" to represent an issue of race rather than one of citizenship.

<comment><USER40> I'm asian-american myself and I was interviewed by other asians who I had trouble understanding despite being brought up around my own family's accent. I wasn't using "american" to represent race or citizenship.

I didn't see think of them as american because we clearly did not share anything in common and had trouble communicating with each other.

Side note: My grandmother is a US citizen, but she only knows how to say "Hello" and "thank you" in english. Bringing in citizenship feels disingenuous.

EDIT: Citizenship comment is regarding this conversation and not the article itself. Sorry if it seemed like an attack.

<comment><USER42> The point of this article is citizenship. I was just trying to understand the point you were making, and thank you for being clear.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

<comment><USER44> Did you read the article? It's literally the first sentence.

<comment><USER45> Please see the Hacker News guidelines!

>Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."

<comment><USER46> At the same time, if you clearly didn't read the article, you should expect to be called out on it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Here is a good talk on how to think about three deeply connected topics that are under attack today.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU)

\---

Free Trade, Immigration and Robots, Oh My!

One of the biggest threats America faces—we are told—is the assault on our workforce: the loss of American jobs to immigrants, to foreign competition fueled by free trade, and even to technology that will make all kinds of jobs obsolete. In this talk the Ayn Rand Institute's executive chairman, Yaron Brook, argues that this fear is entirely misplaced—that a proper grasp of the virtue of productiveness shows that far from fearing and opposing free trade, immigration and robots, we should be eagerly embracing all three.

\---</comment>


Mastercard API - <AUTHOR> https://developer.mastercard.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Since the VISA API seems of interest, MasterCard also has one. I wrote about a particular use case for these APIs, and other commercial ones, in a blog post [1].

TLDR: You need to be a "verified partner" or be sponsored to use VISA or MasterCard APIs.

[1] [https://ksred.me/post/a-deeper-look-at-integrating- payments/](https://ksred.me/post/a-deeper-look-at-integrating-payments/)</comment>


Oregon students returned thousands of fake iPhones, costing Apple $900k - <AUTHOR> https://www.businesstelegraph.co.uk/2-oregon-students-returned-thousands-of-fake-iphones-costing-apple-900000-feds-say-the-olympian/ <comment><USER2> Apple warranty fraud is a great way to make money. I know of a guy who between 2008 and 2010 would purchase used iPod lots from Costco Electronic Hardware Services, refurbish the water damage indicator in the headphone jack and dock, and then try to return the iPod to one of the few Apple stores in the Seattle area. The refurbishing method would consist of cutting tiny strips of white wax paper, applying a little adhesive, and then sliding the paper flush down the hole. When Apple caught onto this guys method, he would later take the whole headphone assembly apart by using a pen knife to lift the plastic around the headphones, pulling the jack out, and using whiteout to cover the other end.

I went to the Apple store with this guy and felt ashamed just being around him as he dropped off a dozen water damaged iPod Nanos, each with an appointment, telling the guy that they were from guys in Iraq, as if that were to add some emotional weight to getting new ones.

Nearly a decade later I found out the guy was running the same scam with the iPhone SE by using reassembled water damaged phones or dummy phones from China. I am guessing he didn't get caught because the scale of his operation were a few at a time, maybe a couple hundred in a year, but not thousands over a year.

Now that I think about it, I had let him use my Apple account for appointments and claims, and ever since then, I have always had a bad time working with the genius bar over things that I bring in.

<comment><USER3> Generally not a wise idea to publicly admit to being an accomplice to theft.

<comment><USER4> I don't think simply being in the room with someone committing a crime, even knowing that's what they're doing, doesn't give you accomplice liability. I think you have to assist or encourage. You do not generally have an affirmative responsibility to prevent people from committing crimes.

 _edit: but see below_

<comment> munk-a So... assisting like...

> let him use my Apple account for appointments and claims

<comment><USER4> Yikes. I missed that.

<comment><USER2> I let them know about this way back when, email went into a void.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Many moons ago I worked at an apple store genius bar, and this was constant. There wasn't a whole lot we could do about it unless the phones were obvious fakes. Those we would reject, as well as ones where the serial number came up as having been replaced a number of times.

Guys would bring in a bunch of phones at a time. They knew the apple store drill and would make a separate appointment for each phone. It sucked, and took time and resources away from real customers. But we couldn't broom them without a concrete reason so they usually got at least a couple phones replaced.

We mostly assumed the phones were stolen and were being washed for new serial numbers, but it makes perfect sense that there are big counterfeiting operations behind this.

<comment><USER6> I think I just realized what kind of people I sold my authentic MacBook Air case bottoms to. And case from a broken iPhone.

Edit: side note: it took a while to sell for not a lot of money. But other than someone needing to drill out a screw and caring about how it looked afterwards, i couldnt figure out why anyone would buy.

<comment><USER7>
       i couldnt figure out why anyone would buy.

curious then, why were you attempting to sell?

<comment><USER8> Because it has value? If you have something that you don't want and someone else wants to buy it (and there's no obvious fraud involved), it's a trivial decision.

<comment><USER7> The point was, how do you know it has value if you can't figure out why anyone would buy it?

I was genuinely curious. A perfectly fine answer would have been "I try and sell everything, because I don't know if it has value to someone". But failing that, you had to have decided to try it for some reason....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Did they just copy the article exactly and then put "\- The Olympian" at the end of the title. Horrible.

Original source: [https://www.theolympian.com/news/nation- world/national/artic...](https://www.theolympian.com/news/nation- world/national/article228763654.html)

<comment><USER10> Yes. That's how syndication works. You pay for content, then tell your end- users where you got it from.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> > _Apple records showed Jiang was associated (by name, email, address or > computer) to 3,069 iPhone warranty claims_

Geeze, you'd think Apple would have some sort of internal controls?

<comment><USER12> This is one of those things were you'd think they'd automatically flag warranty claims for manual review after... what a few? I mean how many individuals (non-business) ever make more then say 5 warranty claims in their lifetime (with one company)?

<comment><USER13> In the last 10 years I've had at least a dozen warranty claims with Apple, maybe more. Usually just one claim per machine, sometimes two. And iPhones… I can't even keep track of that. You get two replacements with AppleCare+ and I almost always use them both. I've probably gotten a dozen replacements on broken iPhones alone. Not exactly 3,000+, but way more than 5. That's also not exactly abnormal. When you see people with cracked screens and ask them why they don't get them fixed the answer is usually, "I already used my replacements."

I would think that, among lifetime Apple customers who purchase AppleCare the average is actually above 5.

<comment><USER14> Those are replacement rates I haven't seen since I worked for a beer & wine distributor. The sales guys would have issues all the time, usually after the weekend. What kind of activities do you do that require such frequent replacements? Or is it just faulty hardware? I suppose once a year isn't super frequent, but still more frequent than I like from expensive equipment.

I do, however, see tons of folks with cracked iPhone screens. Makes me chuckle; as an Android user, and one who doesn't need the latest and greatest, my phones are nearly disposable. Crack the screen? Spend $129 on another.

<comment><USER12> I work in phone repair.

If you're happy with your $129 phone then perfect! I'm not criticizing that at all, and many people would also be happy with it.

I will say however that many people will be looking into higher end android devices though, and for the Samsung series they're often over 200$ [0], while iPhone screens are mostly under 30$ [1]. That's for our store to buy the part, before charging for labor+fees, etc. After fees you'd be looking at ~300/350 for an S8 and ~85$ for an iPhone 7/8\. Not sure what it's like with the newest iPhones, those don't really come in often for repairs (yet).

Just pointing out that android phones are usually more expensive then iPhones to repair. I've personally used cheaper devices and they were just too slow for me, but it's all personal preference.

[0] One of our suppliers, [https://www.mobiledefenders.com/mobile- parts/samsung-repair-...](https://www.mobiledefenders.com/mobile- parts/samsung-repair-parts/galaxy-s-series.html?part_type=335) [1] [https://www.mobiledefenders.com/mobile- parts/apple/iphone.ht...](https://www.mobiledefenders.com/mobile- parts/apple/iphone.html?&part_type=335)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> *Two students. Current title makes it sound like there was a widespread phenomenum.

<comment><USER16> Also, they're Chinese, not Oregonians. "Two OSU students..." would be fine.

Yes, I'm from Oregon.

<comment><USER17> Nobody is crapping on Oregon as a state dude, it's just a pertinent piece of the story, similar to "Florida Man"

<comment><USER16> We're sensitive about these things. It's difficult living in the shadow of California.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Were all/any of the phones Jiang returned actually counterfeit?

Nothing in the article seems to definitively identify them as counterfeit. If their determination is truly based on:

> "but which appeared to be counterfeit based on shipping methods and > packaging"

Seems like Jiang has a pretty solid defense. Maybe all the phones were real iPhones, but were owned by people who can't/won't do a return through apple themselves.

</comment><comment><USER19> Can somebody explain what is 'Wire fraud' and if this charge can be applied to almost any activity done with electronic device?

<comment><USER20> The elements of wire fraud, per the DOJ criminal resource manual:

> The elements of wire fraud under Section 1343 directly parallel those of the > mail fraud statute, but require the use of an interstate telephone call or > electronic communication made in furtherance of the scheme. United States v. > Briscoe, 65 F.3d 576, 583 (7th Cir. 1995) (citing United States v. Ames > Sintering Co., 927 F.2d 232, 234 (6th Cir. 1990) (per curiam)); United > States v. Frey, 42 F.3d 795, 797 (3d Cir. 1994) (wire fraud is identical to > mail fraud statute except that it speaks of communications transmitted by > wire); see also, e.g., United States v. Profit, 49 F.3d 404, 406 n. 1 (8th > Cir.) (the four essential elements of the crime of wire fraud are: (1) that > the defendant voluntarily and intentionally devised or participated in a > scheme to defraud another out of money; (2) that the defendant did so with > the intent to defraud; (3) that it was reasonably foreseeable that > interstate wire communications would be used; and (4) that interstate wire > communications were in fact used) (citing Manual of Model Criminal Jury > Instructions for the District Courts of the Eighth Circuit 6.18.1341 (West > 1994)), cert. denied, 115 S.Ct. 2289 (1995); United States v. Hanson, 41 > F.3d 580, 583 (10th Cir. 1994) (two elements comprise the crime of wire > fraud: (1) a scheme or artifice to defraud; and (2) use of interstate wire > communication to facilitate that scheme); United States v. Faulkner, 17 F.3d > 745, 771 (5th Cir. 1994) (essential elements of wire fraud are: (1) a scheme > to defraud and (2) the use of, or causing the use of, interstate wire > communications to execute the scheme), cert. denied, 115 S.Ct. 193 (1995); > United States v. Cassiere, 4 F.3d 1006 (1st Cir. 1993) (to prove wire fraud > government must show (1) scheme to defraud by means of false pretenses, (2) > defendant's knowing and willful participation in scheme with intent to > defraud, and (3) use of interstate wire communications in furtherance of > scheme); United States v. Maxwell, 920 F.2d 1028, 1035 (D.C. Cir. 1990) > ("Wire fraud requires proof of (1) a scheme to defraud; and (2) the use of > an interstate wire communication to further the scheme.").

It's a fairly broad statute, but to answer your question, it depends on whether the "activity" in question meets all of the elements of wire fraud.

[https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource- manual-941-18-u...](https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource- manual-941-18-usc-1343-elements-wire-fraud)

[https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/white-collar- crimes...](https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/white-collar- crimes/fraud/wire-fraud/)

<comment><USER21> Laws like this drive me nuts. Why isn't it simply fraud, full stop? Degrees of fraud are fine, depending on the egregiousness of the fraud. Special cases for the type of harm are fine (fraudulent phone vs fraudulent life-saving medication). Why the hell do we need "mail fraud" and "wire fraud"? It's just noise.

<comment><USER22> > Why the hell do we need "mail fraud" and "wire fraud"?

Mail fraud and wire fraud are federal crimes where the federal Constitutional power justifying federal law is the postal authority and the interstate commerce clause via the national character of the covered telecommunication networks, respectively.

The US federal government has no Constitutional authority for a general fraud law.

That aside, there are various ways specialized domains create risks of particular conduct that might carry the same general problem as fraud in general, but where the context makes it important to define the prohibited conduct differently than is appropriate for general fraud laws.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Okay, I'm probably over-sensitive since I am an Oregonian, but 1) it was just two students, and 2) they were Chinese nationals.

<comment><USER17> It has nothing to do with Oregon

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Dont phones have serial numbers which are attached to apple ids? Why could apple not implement some reporting based on device serial number or apple id?

<comment><USER25> It's probably a public perception thing: from my experience and a lot of other anecdotes, they're incredibly accommodating with the service and replacement programs. The Verge or Engadget would have a near annual article about "iPhone [2-3 generations ago] still under AppleCare being replaced with iPhone [more recent generation]."

Yeah, losing out to counterfeiting stinks, but I think they prefer the perception of being customer service centered. Probably worth more to them than the losses it generates.

<comment><USER26> They have to do that to balance out the bad press of "you're holding it wrong" when there's a mass design defect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Chump change compared to what was going on in China: [https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant- chinese-i...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese- iphone-repair-fraud-forced-apple-to-develop-countermeasures)

</comment><comment><USER28> > Zhou and Jiang were living in Corvallis, Oregon, on student visas to study > engineering — Zhou at Oregon Sciences University, Jiang at Linn Benton > Community College, court documents said.

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but I'm 99% sure this is a typo. Oregon State University is what they meant.

</comment><comment><USER29> Reminds me of a scammer at work in the 90s (attws). She was ordering base stations 2 at a time, deploy 1, sell one. She made a couple million but kept going until someone noticed she should have a stock of base stations.

</comment><comment><USER30> wow thousands- if he was just to do like 12 a year he would have stayed under and have some income.. i guess even if he gets half.. its a few thousand a year

</comment><comment><USER31> Blaming China--Is it a norm now? whatever the problem is, please blame China, Trump, and maybe some alien civilization?

</comment><comment><USER32> Do you still remember the iPhone Slow Down Scandal? How much does it cost customer?

</comment><comment><USER33> Seems like a solid business plan; better than Lyft or Uber.

</comment><comment><USER34> Sure, but just for reference...

This: $900,000

AAPL: $922,780,000,000

I think they'll be OK.

<comment><USER35> Apple was losing billions in China. While this is just some of the phones trickling into other markets for replacement, it's still fraud and hurting Apple. This is why recently they've started to say iPhone exchanges had to be sent to depot rather than just replaced on the spot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Isn't it possible they didn't know the phones were fake? If the fakes are so good that even Apple can't tell, then it's possible they thought they were real. Maybe they thought they were buying genuine iPhones for cheap since they were broke and having Apple send replacements to make a profit? Or am I missing something?

<comment><USER37> They werent fake, they were "unauthorized", as fake as _original_ Apple batteries and screens being seized by customs because they bear Apple logo.

How the scam works - Apple sends their junk to China to remanufacture/recycle. There instead of being ground into a fine dust some end up in chinese panties to be smuggled out of the facility. Next someone pulls out most profitable still working parts, puts the phone back together and tries to pass it thru warranty process again: [https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant- chinese-i...](https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/10/09/rampant-chinese- iphone-repair-fraud-forced-apple-to-develop-countermeasures) Apparently they managed to get a grip on Chinese fraud, so scammers moved operation into US.

There is no such thing as Genius at the "genius" bar, they arent allowed to repair anything (can only sent it up the chain to Texas afair) and often dont even know how to open products, not to mention being able to tell what should be inside.

<comment><USER6> I think Apple just shreds. No harvesting and re-marketing of spare parts, unless its for their own internal repairs.

It's why I have been able to harvest my old units for parts and cover a substantial cost of each upgrade. I even sold a completely broken iphone 7 mainboard for $40, without fingerprint reader. I literally found the phone smashed to pieces on the ground (with SIM removed).

<comment><USER37> Replacement phones are refurbs - previously returned broken phones with trivial defects, fixed in US using parts re manufactured(motherboards) in China.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> The fact that we choose to blame broke students instead of the multinational corporation that uses child labor for almost everything is kinda telling.

<comment><USER39> > The fact that we choose to blame broke students instead of the multinational > corporation that uses child labor for almost everything is kinda telling

Broke students, who, seemingly managed to buy 3000+ Apple phones and return them? That's some terrible luck they had :-)

<comment><USER40> And I've never met a poor Chinese (national) student. If they can afford to go to school in the US, their family is generally doing alright.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why doesn't GitHub use the free impressions to sell ads? - <AUTHOR>

Github is getting a huge number of requests to execute javascript on host pages. Injecting an advertisement for Chinese reading expats seems like a fantastic use of that traffic. It both helps defray the cost of bandwidth, and also discourages that type of attack.<p>I don't know what headers they're receiving, but i'd guess the search terms are included. How much would you pay for complete control of 0.01% of google's search results? <comment><USER2> I think you've misunderstood the nature of the attack. It's not Baidu or any other site that's being redirected to Github. A Baidu analytics javascript file is being replaced with a malicious file which loads Github via an AJAX call. It's not requests for JS from Github, nor is it an actual person looking at Github.

<comment><USER3> Even if it worked the way that he understood it, that's a great way to destroy relationships with your advertisers.</comment></comment>


Google will buy IFTTT - <AUTHOR> Microsoft launched competing service.  Google partnering with IFTTT.  Google will buy this company.<p>Not sure what that means now, but maybe link back to this after it happens? <comment><USER2> I wouldn't be surprised. IFTTT has enough well connected investors that a tuck in by Goog isnt unreasonable. But with Ruth Porat as CFO, they aren't paying up anymore for acquisitions. Will come down to price. If you are IFTTT, you'd sell now instead of raising more $ and getting more diluted.

</comment><comment><USER3> Last time I tried IFTT about a year ago on android and my brothers iPhone, it wouldn't work. Has anybody else had issues with the app? Did they used to have known compatibility issues back then that have been fixed?

</comment><comment><USER4> oh this will be a smart move.. FLOW from microsoft looks cool</comment>


Amazon Likely Paid $1 Billion for Goodreads - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-03-29/amazon-likely-paid-1-billion-for-goodreads <comment><USER2> The first comment on this article says it all: "This valuation is preposterous, because the methodology is preposterous. There is zero evidence that either the markets or investors use some arbitrary "multiply users by a dollar amount" calculation to determine a valuation for these companies. Using such a formula to arrive at an absurd number is especially egregious here because people will now use the authority of this publication to say "Businessweek reports that Goodreads sold for a billion dollars", though that's almost certainly not the case."

</comment><comment><USER3> No frigging way. Goodreads is a solid community, but its not a $B marginal value to Amazon.

</comment><comment><USER4> $100M maybe, but $1B??? No way.

<comment><USER5> Link bait headline? Worked for me. Who knows if its true though.

<comment><USER3> Well, if they paid a "significant" amount, they will have to disclose it in their next quarterly SEC filing. I'd be shocked if Amazon even paid $100M for it.

<comment><USER3> fyi, Actual price is $150M - see submitted HN story:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5462281></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How much is a typical publishing deal worth? - <AUTHOR>

I know this is likely unrelated to HN directly, but it's something that's alway fascinated me.  How much is an average publishing deal worth for a work of fiction?  Let's say a (new) author has written a novel, and is selling it around.  Let's say the novel is around 500 pages, and for some reason one of the publishers likes it and decides to take a stab and publish it.  How much would said author expect to earn on something like this?<p>I've been curious about this ever since that Twilight author sold her first book.  I'm not a writer by any stretch, but am interested in how much aspiring novelists make as compensation for a 500pg book. <comment><USER2> Ms. Meyer is very atypical.

Do you understand the economics of book publishing? They have nothing to do with page count. Typically, an author will be awarded an advance on signing their contract with the publisher. For a first time fiction author, that would be about $5,000. They are then given a percentage of sales of hardcover, trade paperback, and various other channels, with the first $N of those royalties kept by the publisher until the advance is "earned out", after which the author actually receives royalties.

Because publishing is a hit-centric industry, _most first-time authors will not earn out their advances_ , so the total compensation for their first novel will be $5,000 (plus, more likely if they're successful, money for the sale of ancillary rights, such as foreign publication rights, etc). If it goes on to be a mega-blockbuster, the sky is the limit. J.K. Rowlings' revenues attributable just to the first Harry Potter book are in the hundreds of millions -- _most for the movie rights_.

For more on the economics of authordom, I highly recommend reading jakonrath.blogspot.com</comment>


An experiment shows how to rebuild human compassion - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/72/quandary/can-we-revive-empathy-in-our-selfish-world <comment><USER2> > Imagine telling someone they have the chance to spend an hour inside the > world of a refugee. Who would agree, and who would avoid it? Chances are, > people who don't want to empathize wouldn't want to enter an "empathy > machine" at all.

Isn't avoiding such unpleasant situations one of the main reasons why people try to make more money, move into nicer neighborhoods, etc.? I'm not sure there is such a big market for "entertainment" that makes you feel bad.

Personally I see such devices as manipulative and a threat to rational thinking (like all dark patterns that prey on our instincts). Thus I'd try to avoid exposure to them.

<comment><USER3> People watch horror movies, practice violent or dangerous sports and have painful sexual practices for fun.

I wouldn't be surprised if such a machine would become popular, not as way to build your empathy, but as entertainment.

We are weird creatures.

<comment><USER4> A lot of dangerous, stressful or painful experiences are fun as long as you know you are getting out Ok on the other side. People would probably enjoy it much less if there was a chance that they may get killed in that machine.

<comment><USER5> Relatedly, a lot of funny anecdotes only seem funny in hindsight - but were not very pleasant during them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't like how articles like this beg the question and assume that it's morally wrong for people to accrue wealth while simultaneously there exists homelessness nearby. I certainly don't think there is any kind of consensus on this ethical question, and I would even say that it's quite tricky and the answer isn't at all clear to me either. That's not to say it's certainly OK, morally, to have huge concentrations of wealth and homeless people existing on the same city block, but I can't imagine it's decided that it's certainly not OK, especially when the people living outside refuse the help available and refuse treatment for their addiction and/or mental illness, so 'helping' them would require stripping them of their rights and 'helping' them by force.

<comment><USER7> Except that a significant percentage of the homeless in America are not chronically mentally ill and/or drug-addicted: they are people who were getting by paycheck to paycheck, and then some catastrophe happened (medical emergency, tornado struck, got sued by the RIAA for more money than they make in a lifetime, got laid off, etc), and suddenly they could no longer maintain their house. And without a house, they lost the ability to find a better job or make a down payment—or even the first-and-last-months-up-front for a rental.

And even for those who _are_ chronically mentally ill and/or drug-addicted, far from all of them outright refuse treatment. For many, either no treatment is available, or the treatments that are available are either ineffective for them, or are so unpalatable for them that they would rather suffer.

So please don't try to excuse those making tens of millions of dollars a year their societal responsibility to care for their fellow man by trying to paint everyone who is destitute as somehow deserving their fate.

<comment><USER8> I agree with your comment, I just want to add a thought regarding "social responsibilities". Sometimes I think about it, and I believe the first problem is that a lot of people fail to even help themselves, to be responsible, at least in some aspects, for their own lives. And when I reflect about this (and I think this happens to people regardless their wealth levels), I just can't expect people to realistically "respond" to social responsibility in a way that would match our moral ideals.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Now how to build compassion for those online with different political outlook? So much derision and belittling to be found. Nobel Peace Prize to anyone that solves that.

</comment><comment><USER10> It is disturbing to read different comments seeing this as manipulative or a threat.

Probably well written books, or movies were in similar boats when they were original.

They're mechanisms through which to tell stories in more effective ways. If you're scared of what society has done to these people and unwilling to recognize it and reflect on it I don't know if I can call you a human being. I'd say you're not quite there yet, but keep striving and maybe one day you'll get there.

</comment><comment><USER11> I kinda skimmed this article but noticed it seemed to depend on presenting "understandable" examples of homelessness, but shouldn't _every_ example be understandable to the extent that there is a reason for everything? Why do people want to make exceptions? To justify ignoring the plights of others in a world where we _cannot_ survive without the cooperation of others?

</comment><comment><USER12> Anybody feel like summarizing the experiment and results? The article doesn't seem to get to the point quickly ...

</comment><comment><USER13> Short video documentary on the Hotel 22 bus:

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/opin...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/opinion/hotel-22.amp.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> Empathy is expressed by action, not voting. Voting is a means of imposing your values on those that dont share them. Another flaw is treating all homeless as interchangeable. Circumstances vary and so do people.

</comment><comment><USER15> No.

</comment><comment><USER16> Off topic but this seems to be the best place to ask.

Is nautilus worth subscribing to? Are their articles accurate and scientifically sound?

<comment><USER17> Note: this isn't about accuracy, but you may want to read this first: [https://nwu.org/an-open-letter-from-freelancers-at- nautilus-...](https://nwu.org/an-open-letter-from-freelancers-at-nautilus- magazine/)

And a top comment here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14227337](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14227337)</comment></comment>


3-D Augmented Reality Games For Your iPhone - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/19/poppy-games/

<comment><USER2> Here's a video about this (feat. some gamers): [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtXpEUkqVXM](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtXpEUkqVXM)</comment>


Ask HN: Why aren't there cheap, available smartcards? - <AUTHOR>

Smartcards have a huge security advantage - namely, that the key can never be stolen, only used. Additionally, there is a widely interoperable PKCS#11 standard supported by everything from Firefox to OpenSSH to perform encryption, digital signatures, and identity verification on smart cards.
Knowing all of this, I thought, why not try to set up smart card infrastructure on my Linux VPSes? There are hundreds of cheap readers on the market with tons of positive Amazon reviews, after all.
But no. They're all for the military CAC/PIV infrastructure, and while you can just buy blank PIV-compatible cards, you can't provision them with keys unless you buy proprietary vendor-specific Windows software. There's an abandonware open-source project called OpenSC which tries to hack together provisioning support for some cards, but many on its list of Supported Devices are no longer sold. Those that are are from strange European websites with prices in Euro including VAT.
There's Yubikey, but the ones with smart card functionality are $50. And Yubikey appears to be the only game in town.
What gives? Why won't someone sell me a cheap smart card I can provision for myself or a small organization? <comment><AUTHOR> So it turns out the story is less grim: you can buy a blank JavaCard [0] and use GlobalPlatformPro [1] to load arbitrary applets. You can load gpgapplet, isoApplet, MuscleApplet, or any other JavaCard crypto software you like. This will be then be compatible with client-side software like OpenSC [2], at which point you get generic PKCS#11 or GPG functionality from it.

You can get FIPS 140-2 Level 3 cards for, like, $11.

Apparently there is some difficulty in correctly unlocking the card for applet loading,

[0] [https://github.com/martinpaljak/GlobalPlatformPro/tree/maste...](https://github.com/martinpaljak/GlobalPlatformPro/tree/master/docs/JavaCardBuyersGuide) [1] [https://github.com/martinpaljak/GlobalPlatformPro](https://github.com/martinpaljak/GlobalPlatformPro)

I'll let you know how it goes :).

</comment><comment><USER2> There are. I have a few sitting here on my desk (and one in my wallet) that I bought for my personal use a few years ago. Honestly, it was a pain in the ass to figure out how to get all the pieces to work together, but I finally managed to load an applet and get it working.

I bought a few cards from each of several vendors and _one_ vendor had cards that I was able to make work (the others were mostly proprietary). I can try to dig up where I got them from if you're interested -- shoot me an e-mail if so.

</comment><comment><USER3> You kind of answered yourself: there's no usable infrastructure, thus no volume, thus high prices, thus infrastructure doesn't get created. Except... U2F now exists and you can buy the dongle for $18 at Amazon.</comment>