Show HN: Ffftp – A Minimal FTP Client Built on Electron - <AUTHOR> http://ffftp.site/ <comment><USER2> minimal is clearly referred to the UI, and not the ~50MB download.

<comment><USER3> At what point do we get an Electron runtime that can be distributed (and kept up-to-date) separately from the apps using Electron?

.NET does this, Java does this, DirectX does this, etc.

<comment><USER4> I have wondered this for some time. Why is making a common runtime for Electron so difficult?

<comment><USER5> Looks like it is currently being worked on: [https://github.com/electron/electron/issues/673](https://github.com/electron/electron/issues/673)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Nice work.

Does it support SFTP too? From a operational perspective FTP itself should be avoided for anything except public drop-box applications (IMHO).

Also, best practice in node.js (and electron too) is to not put your node_modules folder in Git. You should add it to a '.gitignore' file.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I really have to spend some time cleaning everything up. The code itself is pretty messy too and needs to especially be split up into smaller files.

This is the first electron or even real node projects I've worked on from scratch, so I'm still getting used to everything.

<comment><USER7> I tried doing this exact same thing and it wasn't as quick/easy as I hoped so I bailed, so first off, thank you for making it, and second, don't worry that its messy at least you got it started and that is the hard part.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh god I nearly bailed as well. Some things were a huge pain to get working.

That's why the code is so messy. A lot of old code left over from trial/error - and a lot of terrible loops to prevent dual FTP connections (which would error).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Okay, but why? No offense, but do we really need another FTP client in 2016?

<comment><USER9> what is a good, free ftp client for mac os?

<comment><USER10> Try FileZilla ..

[https://filezilla-project.org/download.php?platform=osx](https://filezilla- project.org/download.php?platform=osx)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Isn't there some moral violation here? The app looks great but we really really should not be encouraging people to use FTP. Anyone using FTP should feel weight of a thousand suns of shame.

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha. I rarely use it myself - basically only for the few freelance clients I work with where they pass me the FTP credentials to make a change to a site. But for the little bit I use it, I wanted to use a program I liked :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I am not a fan of the way you have copied and pasted code from multiple Github Gists and/or StackOverflow without attribution.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're going to make that accusation without specifying what? Because I'm generally curious what you found.

<comment><USER12> I only looked at one file. [0]

The 'filesize' section is from [1], only the word 'bytes' has changed to 'B' and 'filesize' in two places. It looks like there are other copies of this same snippet in a Google search, but this one shows direct descent from [2] via the 'forked from' tag, so is probably the root of the trail. Not saying that's where you got it from, but this is clearly a derivative work.

Then your 'showFocus' section is from [3] and [4], both posted under the same username. I can't immediately see any other path this piece has developed from and it doesn't seem as significant, but your copy only differs by some trailing spaces.

I stopped looking after realizing over 50% of the first file I looked at was stolen from other sources without attribution.

[0] [https://github.com/mitchas/ffftp/blob/master/app/app.js](https://github.com/mitchas/ffftp/blob/master/app/app.js)

[1] [https://gist.github.com/napoli1890/d33c7b9056e77a8670874e93d...](https://gist.github.com/napoli1890/d33c7b9056e77a8670874e93da3e992b)

[2] [https://gist.github.com/thomseddon/3511330](https://gist.github.com/thomseddon/3511330)

[3] [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22776662/catch-ng-show- ev...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22776662/catch-ng-show-event-and- focus-input-field/25870446#25870446)

[4] [https://gist.github.com/ezsi/77a708fde8af5cb4d239](https://gist.github.com/ezsi/77a708fde8af5cb4d239)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "minimal", "electron" ???

So running an entire web browser, separate from your actual web browser is minimal?

</comment><comment><USER14> Lots of harsh language in this thread. Calling things awful, horrible and garbage isn't advancing the discussion in any sort. Stay civil.

<comment><AUTHOR> Haha. I knew it'd be controversial on HN - especially with all the power users. It's more for designers/frontend who barely use FTP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> If you're targeting Windows, I'd recommend writing a GUI in PHP-Desktop, if you know PHP and can handle working with IE8 without destroying your PC in anger... The binaries are only 5MB + your code, and it works pretty well.

</comment><comment><USER16> I noticed it's phoning home to Google to do tracking. Is there a way to opt out of that?

<comment><AUTHOR> I added it last minute, and it doesn't even work very well with packaged electron apps, so I'll probably remove it. I was just curious about how often it is being used.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> could not copy paste my username and password into text fields!

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow. That's a weird issue I never noticed since I have the credentials I use memorized.

I'll try to figure it out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Isn't one of the selling points of electron that it's cross platform, whenever I find a good app it's never available for the OS where I'd use it.

</comment><comment><USER19> This looks great! I really like the old school style.

</comment><comment><USER17> when I entered info it said connected to servername but then nothing happened. Could not get list of files.

</comment><comment><USER20> Must we wreck all the high quality GUIs we had and replace them with non- standardized, ugly and bloated Electron garbage?

This would be a much better use for Qt than Electron. But I guess that's not hip enough anymore.

<comment><USER21> What you call garbage, might be good looking to someone else. He did not say he's trying to replace other GUIs, there's a good use for this. Calling someone's work garbage after you haven't even extensively tried it (it was posted 30 minutes ago) is uncalled for. I think it looks promising and look forward to trying it when I get home.

<comment><USER22> Electron is objectively horrible. The only upsides are 1 "it's easy" and 2 "it's pretty" neither of which make for efficient or minimal programs. To be quite honest, "pretty" GUIs are usually the worst anyway.</comment></comment></comment>


How I Would Try to Hack Your Mint.com Account - <AUTHOR> http://www.jasonowens.com/how-i-would-try-to-hack-your-mint-account/

<comment><USER2> What's the value of hacking my Mint.com account? Learning where I bank so that you can send me phishing emails?

(Downmodded? Last time I checked, there's no "transfer all my money to an offshore bank account" button, nor are the passwords to the linked sites available. So while annoying that some dude on the Internet can see that you have lunch at McDonalds every day, it's not going to cost you any money.)

<comment><USER3> There probably wouldn't be much utility in doing this to some random stranger, but it could be useful if you were trying to blackmail or embarrass someone.

For instance, say that you're a senator and you've made some enemies. If these enemies could log in to your account, they could reveal some "suspicious charges" from an escort or pornography service, or perhaps they'd notice some large expenditures on airfare and travel when you were supposedly just off for a weekend hike (Mark Sanborn). All of these things are bad.

That's a prominent example, but the same could be done to anyone you wanted some leverage against, be it a teacher, supervisor, or anyone else. Yes, it'd be ideal if people didn't do things that destroy their careers and/or families in the first place, but often times that's not how people work.

<comment><USER4> So it's only the same amount of damage that you could do by stealing my mail and going through my bank statements.

You'd probably do far better at embarrassing someone by going through their email, which is a necessary step for several of these methods.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great article. It seems that simply using Gmail over SSL would mitigate the email-related issues here, no?

<comment><USER6> Absolutely. And, I can't think of any email service that sends passwords in clear text. I'm not convinced it is this easy to compromise someone's email account.

<comment><AUTHOR> What I was thinking about was someone using say POP and a client like Thunderbird. The POP traffic by default is clear-text, so when you send your password to the server, it's in the clear unless you're either tunneling your traffic or going to a secure port to your ISPs mail server.

<comment><USER7> This is sadly true. I cannot connect to my school's e-mail service with either of the security schemes provided by Thunderbird (SSL, TLS, or STARTTLS). The trade-off is a nice program versus a secure connection.

I'm not exactly concerned about the security of my school account, but it could potentially suck to have it compromised.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Eh, the amount of ways anyone could hack anything is so much staggeringly larger than the amount of times people actually end up getting hacked.

Pointing out one specific flaw in one specific service is about as useful & damaging as pondering new theoretical ways terrorists could strike the US.</comment>


Down the 'ls' Rabbit Hole - <AUTHOR> http://sysadvent.blogspot.com/2010/12/day-15-down-ls-rabbit-hole.html

<comment><USER2> These "down the hole" investigations can sometimes be used as the basis for open-ended interview questions.

I always ask candidates to tell me everything that happens between the time that they see an interesting link on the screen, click on it, and see the result. I've had great answers in the space of 2 minutes, and amazing ones that covered 15 or more. Some of the more spectacular answers referenced neurons, muscles, round-robin DNS, firewalls, load balancers, application servers, and more. I can really determine if they know how the web works or not.

</comment><comment><USER3> Nice article; it reminds me of taking OS at CMU. There's something incredible about learning what happens all the way down when you call, say, printf. Suddenly the computer transforms from an incomprehensible black box into an fascinating marvel of engineering - but unlike a magician's act, the magic only gets better when you see how it works.

<comment><USER4> Aside from the interesting information about _what_ is happening is the instructions on what tools to use to get the job done. An article like has a double payload; I wish more were like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It is worth noting this whole series is incredible. I used to work with the guy who started it (@jordansissel), and he was an incredible sysadmin/software engineer. If you go through the archives on the right side, you will find lots more incredible posts (although he doesn't write them all anymore, they are all of excellent quality).

<comment><USER6> Seconded! It goes back two years, and hopefully will continue for many more. Excellent series.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Note, for those following along, that Mac users can use _dtruss_ (which is a shell script that makes DTrace easier to use and more like strace).

What a neat article! Makes me want to explore some other commands and write something similar up.

</comment><comment><USER8> Wow. Really informative.

I have used strace to try to debug unpredictable or unresponsive programs, but it never occured to me to just run it against the commands I rely on that actually work.

I did a combination gasp/chuckle when I saw the 'write(l, "bar\n" ...' at the end of the ls dump. There is something both humbling and obvious about seeing under the hood of the platform that I just take for granted.

</comment><comment><USER9> Heh, this is great. I just had to write a simple shell for my CS class, so going into more depth with some of the stuff in this article is great.

</comment><comment><USER10> Yes. I have this command aliased as 'fu'. Surprisingly easy to remember.

</comment><comment><USER11> THE AMULET OF YENDOR: INSIDE THE KERNEL

JUST ONE MORE TURN...

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetHack></comment>


Petition Oracle for a Brighter Jave EE Future - <AUTHOR> https://javaee-guardians.io/ <comment><USER2> Haha Good luck.</comment>


Ask HN: Unified login system? - <AUTHOR>

Lots of people use facebook connect.  Can't tell if its indolence or by design.<p>Is there a login system that can leverage facebook connect but also allow other login systems? <comment><USER2> As a developer, if I am going to do a "social" login, I usually use <https://rpxnow.com/></comment>


Delicious, Upcoming Founders To Show You Political Bias Of News Sites - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/10/10/delicious-upcoming-founders-to-show-you-political-bias-of-news-sites/ <comment><USER2> I'm surprised the techcrunch article got more points than the original writeup at <http://waxy.org/2008/10/memeorandum_colors>

I'm also pretty dissapointed this gets credited to me when it was mostly Andy's idea (I just did some math.)

Brendan O'Connor did a correlation between our output and a website that uses humans to measure skew at [http://anyall.org/blog/2008/10/it-is-accurate-to- determine-a...](http://anyall.org/blog/2008/10/it-is-accurate-to-determine-a- blogs-bias-by-what-it-links-to/) which is pretty great. As a statistics and collective intelligence behavior junkie, his blog is pretty good reading, btw.

<comment><USER3> I don't suppose this is real-time, with continuously updated results? It seems you run once the SVD algorithm, store results in a spreadsheet, and then greasemonkey pulls the data from this static file.

<comment><USER2> Nope, I push them to Andy and he hand-checks them first. Could automate it, but maybe some other factor would be different someday?</comment></comment></comment>


IBM Outages - <AUTHOR> https://cloud.ibm.com/status?selected=status <comment><USER2> I've been using SoftLayer for about ... I'm actually not sure. I think I started someplace that SoftLayer bought and then IBM bought SoftLayer. So I think I've been with them for about 15 years in some form. It's been so many years I can't even be sure how many. About 5 years ago I started using AWS and so for about 5 years I've been using both. I can not believe how much better AWS has been at the most basic things. I use nothing even remotely fancy, just some "servers" (call them VPS or EC2 or Bare Metal or whatever you want) to run some websites. Nothing is balanced or behind anything special or anything at all interesting.

SoftLayer has server times (I want to say 6? More than one less than 10) just lost a server on me. Just POOF gone. The number of emails I get from them is INSANE and I can't figure out how to limit them. There's constantly a problem at a datacenter. I don't know which ones to worry about. Sometimes things go read only for no reason. The list has gone on and on. My god, that new portal at IBM is HELL to use.

Thing is, I never even knew how bad it is there until I started using AWS. It's not a daily thing, or even a monthly thing, but it's for sure been once or twice a year some serious issue has caused trouble at SL. I have had maybe one problem with AWS in 5 years?

Tried complaining, but I'm way too small to matter. Like others have said "It's that bad". Sooner than later things will be all moved over.

</comment><comment><USER3> Using IBM and Oracle cloud in a past role was a pain.

IBMs "Watson cloud" had an incident of some sort, in some region, every single day.

It made me wonder if they were being honest and other providers don't own up to everything or if it was just that bad.

The cloud console was miserably slow as well.

<comment><USER4> I STILL can't figure out how to unsubscribe from those incident alerts. There's no link in the email to manage notification settings, and their website is unusable, so I just send them to spam now.

I do think that they were being "more honest" than other cloud providers, since I've noticed that almost every PAAS or SAAS will have brief outages for small sections of the userbase that aren't mentioned on their status page, either out of laziness or for the PR.

<comment><USER5> > I STILL can't figure out how to unsubscribe from those incident alerts. > There's no link in the email to manage notification settings, and their > website is unusable, so I just send them to spam now.

Are you me? :)

Seriously though, the email alerts I've been getting (for the last 4 years I think?) have some sort of link in the footer that says "To change your Email Preferences, please go to [...]".

However, it's annoying right off the bat because it requires you to log in with some ancient set of credentials. When I finally got it working and logged in, I saw that all notifications/alerts are disabled anyway, and yet I end up getting a bunch of alert spam!

<comment><USER4> > I saw that all notifications/alerts are disabled anyway, and yet I end up > getting a bunch of alert spam!

Yup, that matches my experience, that's (partially) why I called the site "unusable"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I can't help but think these outages are just IBM trying to remind us they're in the cloud business too...

</comment><comment><USER7> Can you get fired now for buying IBM?

<comment><USER8> I actively avoid Oracle and IBM and the companies that use their products when job hunting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> When the cloud is down and nobody cares. Shows you how relevant it is.

<comment><USER10> What? Cloud is very relevant. Unless you mean IBM and Oracle cloud...yeah those are irrelevant.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Not sure anyone has used them or evaluated them before, but their literature used to go around claiming 100% uptime, which I found absurd. Unless someone has a plan for every conceivable threat (nuclear bomb, asteroid hitting the earth), no one should claim 100% uptime. More recent literature now claims 99.99% but even that might be too much.

</comment><comment><USER12> What reason would one have to use IBM Cloud? Honest question, what is their advantage?

<comment><USER13> Really good Kubernetes (managed OpenShift as well) and Object Storage services (Cloud Object Storage). The Object Storage in particular has awesome durability and easy to use cross-regional capabilities where data is distributed across multiple MZRs in a region/continent VMWare, solid database options like Cloudant, and Watson APIs. Bare metal machines, no egress fees for databases.

Disclosure: I work for IBM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Seems like something is going on in Dallas.

</comment><comment> yami-sama if you do use IBM cloud, you deserve.</comment>


Snowden live meeting with Amnesty and Human Rights Watch - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/12/edward-snowden-to-meet-amnesty-and-human-rights-watch-at-moscow-airport-live-coverag

<comment><USER2> God, what's wrong with the US these days. As a European I find myself rooting for Russia, an odd experience, yet I'm not alone. Obama's silence in the whole matter really strengthens my contempt for the man.</comment>


FDA Drug Shortages - <AUTHOR> https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/drugshortages/ <comment><AUTHOR> Can someone with experience in this domain chip in with how to interpret this information?

What I am getting at is that this might look bad, yet those of us without expertise and daily exposure to this segment have no idea what this might look like on average under normal circumstances.

In other words, this list might not accurately reflect causation by the COVID-19 event.

I STRONGLY URGE anyone looking at this link without the appropriate background not to reach any conclusions until someone with the appropriate credentials puts this data into context.</comment>


How Did People in the Colonial Period Stay Informed? - <AUTHOR> http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/162349 <comment><USER2> I think that information disseminating over _twenty years_ isn't evidence of "sophisticated communication networks".

This article feels like the author is taking a few examples of Native Americans communicating, and then making no attempt to get from there to her conclusion that Natives had advanced communcation networks.

<comment><USER3> As I read it, the author didn't imply it _took_ 20 years to decimate the information, but merely that they were well aware of who they were greeting 20 years later. Still, even 20 years can seem surprisingly short if your working assumption is that the tribes were very loosely organized and mostly isolated from one another except in a few areas.

Best I'm aware, travel speed in Middle Age Europe was ~20-40km/day. Such a high speed was in large part because a) the Romans had paved roads that were still used then to speed up troop movements, b) they had domesticated horses and cattle, and c) they had discovered and were using the wheel to cart things around.

In contrast, native Americans had only domesticated the Lama when they were around and were only using that as pack animals. (They didn't have wheels let alone carts.) And best I'm aware, the only areas with paved roads were in Central America and in the Andes.

Without all of European facilities or modern gear, I'd guess you'd probably do ~10-15km/day (if that). Aztecs had rest points on their road networks every 6-9km; doing one or two per day is a safe bet; maybe a few more if you're _really_ in a rush.

Further, achieving such "high" speed really assumed a set purpose where you wanted to go from A to B in a reasonably amount of time for whatever reason (e.g. delivering mail or a message, moving troops, visiting someone, etc.). I sincerely doubt this was the case when it came to warning other tribes of the Europeans. Rather I'd imagine it was more of a word of mouth thing in passing, with initial groups fleeing with the information, messengers spreading the word nearby, and traders/embassies slowly spreading the word even further. That would likely slow things down even more.

<comment><USER4> Walking pace is ~3MPH. On foot people are not doing straight line trips so ~2MPH net distance for long trips is reasonable. Less if navigation is an issue. As such it's ~1000 hours to go from east to wast coast in the us.

PS: even netting 4h traveling per day that's less than 9 months.

<comment><USER3> ~3mph assumes modern equipment and infrastructure. You won't get that with poorly designed shoes, a poorly designed backpack, on a barely beaten trail, and without a grocery store with (very) cheap food at every other street corner. And even if you imagined all of that, it's only less than 9 months when you're goal driven: you'd want to get a message from the east coast to the west coast - fast. Without such a goal, you're just looking at the spread of hearsay through word of mouth - which is slow.

<comment><USER4> Shoes are over rated.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting) involved ~(16 to 22 mi) in under 5 hours @ 104+ degree temperatures.

Don't forget hunter gatherers had minimal equipment all it takes is for someone to decide to follow the setting sun and they can make the trip. Water and mountains are the major issues not so much food.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Aside from long range information, which was pretty much transferred by people (on foot or on horses), I find smoke and flag signalling very interesting. The latter could be used to convey quite a bit of information in a short time at a respectable distance...

<comment><USER6> > transferred by people (on foot or on horses)

It's interesting because natives didn't have horses at the time.

<comment><USER5> Then they had to do it on foot, like this guy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheidippides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheidippides)

Not an easy task for sure

<comment><USER6> Especially when one dies at the end of the run.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Ravens</comment>


Should we write specs for validations? - <AUTHOR> http://progfu.com/post/17318770859/should-we-write-specs-for-validations

<comment><USER2> What is the best way to learn writing tests?

<comment><AUTHOR> The best thing is of course learn by actually doing it. Your tests don't have to be anything complicated, basically what you're doing is writing down your own assumptions about the code.

Those can be something like "when someone upvotes on a comment, then the comment should have +1 score" ...

Another thing that might help you is watching someone actually do TDD, for which I can recommend Destroy All Software screencasts <https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/></comment></comment>


Truckers Reap New Riches - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-09/big-and-bulky-e-commerce-opens-new-road-to-riches-for-truckers <comment><USER2> Despite the article's attempt to establish a connection, Millenials' purchasing habits (online vs showroom) have little to do with this beyond their being the generation currently creating growth in demand.

Large items such as washing machines, ranges, sofas, were always delivered by last-mile delivery companies, regardless of how they were purchased.

The real story here is about consolidation and standardization of the last- mile delivery industry. That's a pattern that has occurred in other industries for a long time. The consolidation reduces cost by reducing redundancies (== laying off duplicative employees), and standardization of process and marketing creates a recognizable brand, which reduces purchase friction with customers.

This will probably continue until there are a few major nationwide white-glove delivery companies left. And I doubt there will be consumer opposition to preserve the local delivery company the way there is with the local restaurant, boutique, or coffee shop. Appliance/furniture delivery isn't a lifestyle service.

Another recent example I discovered: Automobile body repair shops. They used to be mostly independent businesses, but sometime recently, a nationwide corporation called Abra has bought up many independent body shops and turned them into a network.

<comment><USER3> _A recent example I discovered: Automobile body repair shops. They used to be mostly independent businesses, but sometime recently, a nationwide corporation called Abra has bought up many independent body shops and turned them into a network._

Perhaps the conditions for recognizing when an industry "needs" consolidation aren't that esoteric? Aren't they all issues of scaling?

Another example is in refrigerated shipping containers. Even though those are specialty items, prices have been driven down in that area to the point where financing the construction of new stock is becoming an impediment to some companies in remaining price competitive. Larger companies which have manufacturing in-house have a huge advantage in that niche.

Nationwide chains can spend less per shop on advertising, but still out- compete small shops in terms of advertising exposure. They're also more convenient for other large companies to make deals with. Is last-mile delivery like auto-body, in that the flow of information among consumers isn't so great, and it takes considerable effort for delivery teams to maintain quality of service even though the margins aren't always so great?

(Anecdote: I bought a portable dishwasher from Amazon. The UPS driver dropped the box right on the corner, completely smashing the packing and the bottom tray of the machine. I reported the damage and did the return. I got the replacement item and the UPS driver dropped the box on its corner in exactly the same way! I ended up keeping it, since the 2nd time, the water tightness and the cosmetics from the front weren't compromised, then eventually sold it on Craiglist.)

<comment><USER2> > Perhaps the conditions for recognizing when an industry "needs" > consolidation aren't that esoteric? Aren't they all issues of scaling?

I don't think they are esoteric either, but rather, pretty straightforward. Modern communications and information technology have made it possible for a single corporate entity to easily manage an enterprise spread over many disparate geographic locations.

As a result, there are costs (basically, people) that can now be reduced because they are redundant, and the remaining people can create some level of standardization in process and branding.

This is an old story at this point - at least a few decades old. The only surprising thing is that it took this long for the last-mile white-glove delivery industry to get there.

> Is last-mile delivery like auto-body, in that the flow of information among > consumers isn't so great, and it takes considerable effort for delivery > teams to maintain quality of service even though the margins aren't always > so great?

Sure, I'm not arguing that they don't have a strong incentive to merge. Quite the opposite, in fact.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Bloomberg or WSJ rewrites this same "trucker shortage" article every month, like clockwork. It's amazing. I've read this same article every few weeks for the last twenty years.

<comment><USER5> Indeed. And there is also a continuous shortage of farm workers, or at least workers willing to do backbreaking seasonal labor harvesting crops for substandard wages. Astonishing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I know a few truck drivers. They're not getting paid any more than in past years. Trucking companies may have increased demand, truckers are still getting paid trucker's wages. Enough to get by on at the cost of having to work 12+ hour days.

<comment><USER7> Truck driver earnings today are roughly the same, in nominal dollars, as they were in 1975. So over the past 40 years they've taken a 70% pay cut.

They are getting squeezed so tightly a lot of them don't even make minimum wage.

<comment><USER8> They have seen a serious pay cut since the Motor Carrier Act of 1980, however 70% is a big exaggeration. That would imply the typical trucker was earning the equivalent of $135,000 per year in 1975 based on today's BLS numbers. And if it were accurate, I'm not sure how anyone could think that would be sustainable across a field flooded with 1.7 million drivers. With the pay decrease, there are dramatically more drivers today than in 1975 after adjusting for population growth. It's now providing a lot more jobs at a lower pay. The reason wages dropped was due to increased competition and deregulation, the value of their services declined. The reason wages were so high before was due to artificial labor scarcity and price controls via a cartel system (which Jimmy Carter fixed when he signed the MCA bill), ie it was fake.

Business Insider covered this extensively, they found the typical trucker has seen a 21% pay cut since 1980 in real terms -

"Business Insider compared freight wages, adjusted for inflation, from the BLS 1980 area wage survey and location-specific wage estimates from the BLS' Occupational Employment Statistics. For the five cities in which comparable data existed in both surveys, wages decreased by 21%, on average."

[https://www.businessinsider.com/trucking-shortage-eld- mandat...](https://www.businessinsider.com/trucking-shortage-eld-mandate-cdl- truck-driver-salary-2018-6)

[https://www.businessinsider.com/truck-driver-salary- decrease...](https://www.businessinsider.com/truck-driver-salary-decrease-pay- cut-2018-9)

<comment><USER9> While a 135k sounds great, now consider they have to pay for their fuel, they are independent contractors generally. Then taxes on top of that. when truck drivers attempted to get a loan at a previous employer the conversation of "but I make a 100k a year" happened several times. No you really make 50k.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> temp-dude-87844 The transformation in the article is the usual one we've seen for the last several decades in other service industries like foodservice, retail, home system service, and even transportation. An uneven patchwork of limited-region small businesses is being abstracted away, albeit not necessarily replaced, by national middlemen with deep pockets, vast experience, consistent standards, and powerful negotiating position. Those looking to hire them to perform a service are pleased with the consistent standards, tailored solutions, and their ability to keep costs predictable across the board. Those middlemen often contract out to the exact crop of companies and people who were doing the work before, but the standards are higher, the competitive price pressure is higher, and a cut goes to the coordinator which didn't before.

With time, this will result in consolidation, as it has always has. The most underperforming subcontractors will be shed, some will be directly acquired, existing employees will be handed new responsibilities, geographic bases will expand and redundancies will be identified. Both the job alarmists and the capitalist extollers are right, because this is the path to efficiency among whose chief instruments is reducing labor cost, but also because this process has always played out for hundreds of years in the exact same way.

The silver lining here is that this particular transformation isn't based on regulatory arbitrage (or simply ignoring the law), doesn't result in the sort of homogenization that imperils an intangible heritage (like foodservice consolidation did), but is actually about a middleman inserting real value into the supply chain. It's exactly what it says on the tin, and that's quite nice.

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm still waiting for Ikea to take the friction out of home delivery. If they could do that, their market would double.

<comment><USER11> They actually do home delivery in Japan for ¥3,000, or roughly $30 USD: [https://www.ikea.com/ms/en_JP/customer_service/ikea_services...](https://www.ikea.com/ms/en_JP/customer_service/ikea_services/home_delivery.html)

<comment><USER12> Ikea does delivery here in the United States, but their delivery service has a bad reputation.

There are small businesses that have been created around this. I found a business that would purchase, deliver, and assemble items from Ikea. All I had to do was send them a copy of my Ikea shopping list.

In my particular case, they purchased items at the Elizabeth, NJ location, which has a 3.3% sales tax [1]. If I didn't use their service, I would have had to shop at Ikea Brooklyn, which has an 8.8% sales tax [2].

[1] [http://www.sale-tax.com/ElizabethNJ](http://www.sale-tax.com/ElizabethNJ) [2] [https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/business-nys- sales-t...](https://www1.nyc.gov/site/finance/taxes/business-nys-sales- tax.page)

<comment><USER10> Yes, Ikea delivery is wonky in the US. Ikea themselves will deliver, but the cost is based on how far you are from the nearest store, and it's not cheap. Some of those third-party delivery services are good, but none of them are cheap.

Ikea stores give me nightmares. You can get in, but you can't get out again. What I really want is to be able to order stuff from Ikea online so I don't have to set foot in their store, and have it delivered quickly for a low flat fee. They probably should think about doing some kind of partnership with Amazon to make this happen.

(edit: added link) [https://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/service- offer/delivery.html?ic...](https://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/service- offer/delivery.html?icid=iba|us|skdelivery)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Honest labor made possible by the Internet that can't be automated away, and it improves the experience for the consumer. Some may criticize the user of contract labor, but a lot of these contractors are independents who own their own truck or small businesses that own a few trucks and employ their own people.

Once again the free market finds new uses for labor rather than eliminating the net total number of jobs. It's a wonderful thing!

<comment><USER14> Not sure if sarcastic but looking at the "net number of jobs" is a shallow analysis. Major trends are the appreciation of certain jobs for example in the IT industry (a nonexistant/tiny field until recently) and the devaluation of many others.

The next stage in automation is expected to make the work that most people are able to do completely obsolete, that's why many visionaries discuss basic income.

Another trend is the concentration of wealth, which may shape the economy, e.g. by providing lots of lowly paid "servant" jobs.

Even today the "free market" is augmented by huge welfare systems pretty much everywhere, including the US; suggesting that the free market alone can "find new uses for labor" and automatically create a functioning system is imo wrong and harmful.

<comment><USER13> > _Major trends are the appreciation of certain jobs for example in the IT > industry (a nonexistant /tiny field until recently) and the devaluation of > many others._

This is the natural progression of jobs. Auto mechanics were a nonexistent / tiny field that soon grew, devaluing the once noble buggy whip and horse- related professions.

> _The next stage in automation is expected to make the work that most people > are able to do completely obsolete_

This is where I and many others fundamentally disagree. Work may be made obsolete, but new jobs will be created, just as they always have.

> _suggesting that the free market alone can "find new uses for labor" and > automatically create a functioning system is imo wrong and harmful_

I am not only "suggesting" \- this is actually the what our economy does every single day! The free market allocates labor, the government is not involved except around the margins.

<comment><USER15> My great great grandfather was a Cooper. He had friends in the carriage industry. When cars were starting to get big it was _obvious_ what to do: take their years of experience making buggy cars, and now make automobile cars. I'm not so certain that the current pattern of automation is the same as the last. In the past, the automation shifted labor jobs around. The new automation is of labor _itself_. Asking people to exit the labor market & move to a new market is harder than I think your optimism merits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> If you want to assess the impact of truckers on economy, have a strike. Chile 1972 for instance.</comment>


Computing Timeline - <AUTHOR> https://bopwerks.github.io/timeline.html <comment><AUTHOR> I'm compiling a computing research publication/invention "greatest hits" to help myself and others learn what's already been done, and avoid, as Alan Kay would say, "reinventing the flat tire." Your suggestions for noteworthy publications or inventions are welcome.

<comment><USER2> This would be a lot more useful if it had more information. For example:

\- A brief explanation of why each item is significant to the history of computer science.

\- Links to the articles (if available), and links to sources like Wikipedia articles that describe the work.</comment></comment>


Dmigrations - a new migrations system for Django - <AUTHOR> http://simonwillison.net/2008/Sep/3/dmigrations/

<comment><USER2> This is definitely a big step. I had a horrible time with schema changes using sqlalchemy until I started using migrate <http://code.google.com/p/sqlalchemy- migrate/>.</comment>


Tell HN: Happy Solstice - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

<comment><USER2> What's awesome is this: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange>

Built between 3100 and 2900 BC: at the winter solstice the chamber inside is illuminated by the sun.

</comment><comment><USER3> Weird observation: Even though the days are getting longer, sunrise is actually still getting _later_ for a few days. It's just that sunset is getting later faster.

<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunrise.html>

I think the instant of the Solstice this year is 17:47 UTC

In Los Angeles: 09:47

In New York: 12:47

In Melbourne: 04:47 on the 22nd

<comment><USER4> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemma>

Edit: I've always wanted to take a picture of it, but I've never had a spare camera I can bolt down for a year...

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Don't forget the reason for the season.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic>

</comment><comment><USER6> Summer Solstice for those of us in the Southern Hemisphere :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about the Northern-hemispherism, I edited the title. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It's nice to realize that there's more daylight ahead.

<comment><USER8> Actually, it's kind of ironic (at least for us in the Northern Hemisphere) to say _Happy_ Solstice, since general depression can be linked to the lack of sunlight in the winter months.

<comment><USER4> Oh but we are happy that the sunlight is now returning. When I lived in Sweden, it was always the _loss_ of daylight that depressed me. Once you get to the solstice, you know it's getting better!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Once again the light has won the battle against the dark.

</comment><comment><USER3> Useful image of the sun and sunshine on the Earth:

<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth.html>

</comment><comment><USER10> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midvinterblot_%28disambiguation...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midvinterblot_%28disambiguation%29)

</comment><comment><USER11> And it's my birthday! Shortest day of the year :)

</comment><comment><USER12> Happy Saturnalia! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia>

</comment><comment><USER13> But its my birthday!</comment>


Ask HN: Best platform for ecommerce website? - <AUTHOR>

Hi, I am looking for a platform to build a ecommerce website for software. I am no web developer - the only websites I have built were in ASP.Net webforms. I am looking for a platform with MINIMUM coding and a large number of plugin available. I need strong integration with services such as paypal, stripe, google checkout etc.  So far the only ones I have found is Wordpress and Drupal. Is there other options? <comment><USER2> I run/develop ecommerce sites and I have bounced around between many carts. Nowadays I run everything on Shopify.

Shopify is pretty flexible as long as you have someone who knows the ins and outs of the API. If you are paying a developer, I think Shopify would be the cheapest to get quality work since the API is pretty well documented. For a while I avoided Shopify because their checkout page was under their domain but I took the risk and it didn't really affect the conversions.

The only case I've seen where Shopify wasn't customizable enough was for a site that needed major user customization(custom designs printed on goods). There are plugins for it but it didn't meet the business needs of the product being sold.

I would avoid Magento at all costs. It's a major headache to develop anything custom on there. The documentation is terrible. IMO Magento has their own way of doing things so it has a bit of a learning curve development wise.

I wouldn't go WooCommerce also.. You might as well just use Shopify and not have to worry about anything server side(hosting, ssl cert, mail server, etc).

If I had to pick a open source cart for customization reasons, I would go with Spree Commerce which is written in Ruby. It has pretty good documentation.

</comment><comment><USER3> There are a myriad of eCommerce solutions available, just see shopify or magento... . If you just want to get a 08/15 store, look at shopify and be done with it.

But if you want to build something that is unique or has special ideas/requirements or stands out against the thousands of standard online shops out there, have a look at meteor.com, a framework that needs roughly a day to learn (even for beginners), and let you develop websites/apps in a few hours. especially eCommerce stuff is among the most trivial things you can build as a developer nowadays. Oh, and you'll get iOS/android apps for free.

</comment><comment><USER4> I highly recommend Woocommerce, a Wordpress plugin. Wordpress gives you the ability to make any modifications you want, or you can just use prebuilt themes and there is no need to code. Shopify is also great, but it's not as flexible.

</comment><comment><USER5> I have used Nop commerce (ASP.Net).

I am not sure if it is integrated with stripe/Google checkout, but I haven't written single line of code and integrated with Paypal. Also lot of plugins are available.

</comment><comment><USER6> Try shopify, bigcommerce Without any coding!

</comment><comment><USER7> Try magento, shopify and Mozu

</comment><comment><USER8> shopify gets my vote!</comment>


US man finds lost mother in an isolated Amazon tribe - <AUTHOR> http://nypost.com/2014/05/24/son-finds-his-lost-mother-in-a-stone-age-tribe/ <comment><USER2> If anyone has any questions, I'm close friends (roommates actually) with David and serve on the board of directors for The Good Project.

He just left for Costa Rica on a service learning trip, but I'm happy to answer what I can.

<comment><USER3> Is the article factually correct? And if so, does he have a strong relationship with his father?

<comment><USER2> Which aspects are you questioning? It's not my favorite piece I've seen published — I don't think it covers some areas in enough detail and leaves room for insinuation (e.g. Yarima was young when they met, but it wasn't until years had gone by that a relationship occurred. They (David's parents) have spoken as recently as ~7 months ago on a satellite phone, and Yarima has expressed interested on returning to America to visit on multiple occasions. She misses David's father and the relationship they had.)

David's relationship with his Dad is still strained from when he was young, there's no denying that (from my perspective). But as David's interest in Anthropology has grown, so has their ability to find common ground as individuals. I've seen him on the phone talking with Dad for hours, just like any other son.

<comment><USER3> thanks for your reply! I wasn't questioning anything in particular, but wow this article makes his dad sound like a terrible person.

<comment><USER4> Is this the right place to divulge information about a third party? I realize there is an article about him posted here and that it already contains lots of details that would normally be considered private, however I feel that somehow if you have questions about this it might be better to take it off-line. Especially parts about his father and mother's relationship in the present, it has absolutely no business being in a public forum like this. We're not exactly discussing people that have been dead for 50 years.

<comment><USER5> 'jameswburke claims to be his friend. I think we can leave the question of what to reveal to his discretion. What he's said so far doesn't seem to me to be particularly sensitive, nor any more private than what was in the article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wow, his father sounds like a piece of work.

He decides that culture is the only real reason he shouldn't marry someone who was "about 9 to 12" when he's 36. Then his long absences put her at risk of being brutally gang-raped, which happens. She ends up in the US, and eventually goes back without her kids. He tells his kids nothing about her, why she left, who she is, but still has his son beg her to come back in front of a video camera. His son thinks she abandoned him and becomes an alcoholic by 14. The guy says "We weren't a touchy-feely, talk-about-things kind of family".

<comment><USER7> Old men marrying children is common in many parts of the world.

[http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58008.html](http://www.unicef.org/protection/57929_58008.html)

[http://tooyoungtowed.org/](http://tooyoungtowed.org/)

<comment><USER8> >Old men marrying children is common in many parts of the world.

There are quite a few shitty people in the world. As much as many of us hate to admit it, there are also quite a few shitty cultures. Any 36 year-old man, from any culture that has ever existed, that finds it acceptable to marry a 9-12 year old and then start raping her when she's 13 is a piece of shit. Any culture or individual that condones such behavior shouldn't exist anymore.

<comment><USER9> > Any 36 year-old man ... that finds it acceptable to marry a 9-12 year old > and then start raping her when she's 13 is a piece of shit

I would assume she fully expected to have sex with her husband, 13 years old or not. To suggest this was rape, against her will, is a bit preposterous and an incorrect usage of the word. At the same time I find it reprehensible that a 36 year old American, whose culture says underage is below 18, would get involved with what we'd consider a child.

<comment><USER8> >To suggest this was rape, against her will, is a bit preposterous and an incorrect usage of the word

There are different kinds of rape. It doesn't really matter if a 13 year-old consents. How many 13 year-olds do you know that are mature enough to make such a decision?

<comment><USER10> I know plenty of 30+ year olds who aren't mature enough to make such a decision either. The age of 18 is just an arbitrary choice to plant a legal marker, because it's not practical to judge on a case by case basis.

Not that I'm condoning the behavior in this case....I'd think the intent of age of consent laws would be to protect those not yet able to protect themself with their own judgement - it should be obvious in this case, _especially_ considering his age at the time, that taking a ~13 year old "wife" and proceeding to have sex with her when you had no intent to move there permanently was an incredibly wrong thing to do, by any moral compass.

<comment><USER8> I agree that SOME 30 year-olds aren't mature enough to make adult decisions, but on the other hand almost every single 13 year-old on the planet is too immature.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is a fascinating story, because there's obviously a hidden narrative that the reader is supposed to play along with: rich, sophisticated asshole of a grad student takes advantage of a terribly young girl. Heartache ensues. One child suffers alcoholism. A ton of emoting going on.

As I take this apart, however, I'm at a loss to where the story is. Is it wrong to study other cultures? No. Is it wrong to take a wife of 13? Perhaps in the western world, but not there, so I gotta go with "no" on that one. Should the kids have stayed in the Amazon? Once again, I think both parents made the safest choice for the children in the long term. I also think it's great the writer is getting re-connected with his mom.

If anything, I'm disturbed by the idea that the mother is just another cookie- cutter ignorant primitive. I see no indication that she was forced into a marriage. It appears she wanted things to happen as they did. She decided to move to the states and she decided to move back. In fact, the father's explanation that it was a divorce looks to me like a clearcut explanation of what happened. Older man marries younger woman, kids arrive, much heartache, story ends with grown man finding his mother. It's a great story, no doubt, but not a very unusual one. I'm not sure what the "Isolated Amazon Tribe" brings to the table that isn't already there. Just a gimmick to attract more readers?

I hope this guy continues reconnecting with his mother's side of the family. As he says, his story is just beginning. I bet it's going to be an interesting one. It's the interaction of cultures that's the interesting thing here, not the all-too-common tragedy of marriages gone bad.

<comment><USER12> As someone else pointed out elsewhere in the thread, Yanomame do not travel to work and leave the wife. The man took two _very_ different cultures and combined actions that are common in each but not the other. The combination was explosive.

</comment></comment><comment> loup-vaillant > _Once admitted [to the hospital, Yarima] sprung herself out of bed and > attempted to give birth by squatting in the corner of the hospital room._

That one was probably highlighted to emphasize the weirdness, or scandal, or ick factor, just like the first excerpt. But this is most probably one thing the Yanomami got right, as a simple matter of physiological fact.

I have recently learned from my manual therapist that lying in the back like we do in the west by default is the _worst_ possible position for giving birth, for various reasons, the most obvious being that gravity doesn't work with you in that position. Apparently, this position is widespread in our countries because it is more convenient for the doctor.

Squatting on the other hand is one of the best positions, leading to less pain, much faster birth, less risks for both the baby and the mother… Even if you're a cold heart cynic, this would be one easy way to reduce health expenditures.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childbirth_positions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childbirth_positions)

[http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/birth- positions.html](http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/birth-positions.html)

<comment><USER13> >...this position is widespread in our countries because it is more convenient for the doctor.

Another reason is because they have received epidural anesthesia which stops them from being able to move around safely.

Even with the advent of lighter 'walking' epidurals, many hospitals (including the quite progressive one in SF where my daughter was born last year, with a doula in attendance) still insist on the mother staying in bed after receiving the epidural as a matter of policy (for liability reasons).

>Squatting on the other hand is one of the best positions, leading to less pain, much faster birth, less risks for both the baby and the mother…

Well, 'less pain' except for the epidural thing. I have nothing but respect for women who choose 'natural childbirth', but I think it's a hard sell to many moms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> All: The coincidence of an HN user being personally close to this story is so remarkable that we have put James' comment [1] at the top of the thread, using the same method we occasionally use for moderation announcements. This is very rare—I don't think we've ever done it before.

It does occasionally happen that one commenter is uniquely close to a story, or knowledgeable about it, in an HN thread. I've thought for some time that the HN software should support this somehow, because those moments (e.g. when Peter Norvig shows up to comment on his own work) are among the most valuable here. If we had that feature today, we'd certainly have applied it to James' comment.

1\. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7797013](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7797013)

<comment><USER4> Except for one little detail, it's not the subject of the article that shows up but a close friend.

If one of my close friends would show up in a thread about me and would start to distribute present-day details about my private life and about my family members that are not currently public I would be less than happy. Maybe jameswburke has full support of the subject(s) about these disclosures but for all we can see here he does not.

The whole affair looks like a tragedy for all involved to me and I think it would be much better to just stick to the information already in the public eye (assuming we have to discuss this sort of thing at all) until all subjects involved (such as David's sister) indicate that they are on board with having this stuff divulged.

<comment><USER14> It doesn't have to be the subject or author of the article. Someone unusually close to or knowledgeable about a story (compared to the rest of us in the thread) also counts.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I give jameswburke the benefit of the doubt, and think the thread is much better with his contribution at the top. (The top comment otherwise would be [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796987.](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7796987.))

You're right that the story is personal in a very messy and unpleasant way. It also seems obvious that it has historical and cultural significance. On the other hand, the thread (sadly) isn't exploring that, so we're going to demote it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> >They also have no word for "love."

This is the kind of thing that makes the article unambiguously Western- ethnocentric. They obviously know the concept of love. His mother wept tears of joy at the arrival of her son.

<comment><USER16> I agree. That single sentence irritated me immensely. It was a ham-fisted and misguided attempt to emphasize the 'exoticness' of the Yanomami.

<comment><USER17> They don't hug either. A mother can't hug her son. The example does imply they are not an affectionate people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> If the facts of this article are correct, the father seems to be clinically psychotic

<comment><USER19> > the father seems to be clinically psychotic

i dont think you know what this means

<comment><USER18> Actually, I meant psychopath. Psychotic has a different meaning - I stand corrected.

<comment><USER19> sorry, in that case I didnt mean to be pedantic

<comment><USER18> no, glad you brought it to my attention

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A few links from the BBC: [http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23758087) [http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p018qzzp](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p018qzzp)

</comment><comment><USER14> We changed the url from [http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/son-finds- his-los...](http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/son-finds-his-lost- mother-in-a-stone-age-tribe/story-e6frfqcr-1226930876923), which was copied from this.

<comment><USER21> You should add a regex for that your submission page. Everything on news.com.au that isn't about Australian politics or sport is "syndicated" from US media.

<comment><USER22> Both news.com.au and nypost.com are owned by News Corp, so it makes sense that they share content.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Good grief, both the anthropologists described in the article sound like disagreeable people. The father with all his marrying of a child and then abandoning her, and the other female anthropologist who was mean to the kid.

<comment><USER24> > the other female anthropologist who was mean to the kid.

Not that I didn't find her behaviour reprehensible, but in the interests of accuracy, she was "the wife of a very prominent anthropologist."

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> This story featured on the Snap Judgement podcast last year.

[http://snapjudgment.org/yanomami-mami](http://snapjudgment.org/yanomami-mami)

</comment><comment><USER26> was i reading the onion or something like that, this is completely outrageous, "i was 36... she was 9-12."

</comment><comment><USER27> Here's an interesting documentary about the whole affair: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrets_of_the_Tribe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrets_of_the_Tribe)

<comment><USER4> FTLA:

"Alice Dreger, an historian of medicine and science, and an outsider to the debate, concluded in a peer-reviewed publication that most of Tierney's claims (the movie is based on claims originally made by Tierney) were "baseless and sensationalistic charges".

<comment><USER27> See the documentary and judge for yourself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Reminds me a bit of the movie _Jungle 2 Jungle_ (1997) [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119432/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119432/) and _Krippendorf 's Tribe_ (1998) [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120725/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120725/)

(the screenplays are different, but from a similar timeframe between '85 and '94)

</comment><comment><USER29> Kenneth must have committed a crime in there somewhere. The dude is a pedophile and cruel and hopefully someone will figure out way to bring him down.

<comment><USER30> Thank you for taking all of 5 minutes of your precious time to speak justice and pass judgement based on a magazine article. I am sure future generations will marvel at your wisdom, O Solomon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Yes, HN is the appropriate place for this type of posts.

<comment><USER32> _On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one 's intellectual curiosity._

[http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER33> I don't feel gratified, this belongs on TLC. Why can't we downvote articles?</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Letting users self-host your server-side web app. Easy way to do this? - open-source-ux If you have an open-source or commercial web app that runs on the server, and you want to let users self-host the app (rather than host it yourself), how do you handle this?
A simple method for app installation for non-technical users seems impossible. The alternative? Providing detailed and complex installation instructions (that will probably defeat many users).
There is no standard for software installation on the server side, but some hosting providers have one-click installs for popular software like Wordpress. (Services like Bitnami provide a repository of web apps with pre-configured install scripts that are used by some hosting providers.)
How do you handle self-hosting for your non-technical users or customers? Is installing the software on their behalf the only realistic option? Or is there a way they can easily install your software on a server without your intervention? <comment><AUTHOR> Docker images are pretty much the standard for on-premise SaaS products. Consider Replicated ([https://help.replicated.com/categories/getting- started/](https://help.replicated.com/categories/getting-started/)) or Gravitational Telekube ([https://gravitational.com/docs/overview/](https://gravitational.com/docs/overview/)) for packaging and management.

</comment><comment><USER2> Can you elaborate more on the structure of your app? Also, how non-technical are your non-technical users? I also would have said Docker, but if you have multiple tiers like a db + a web server, packing everything in a single image is kind of an anti-pattern, and using compose gets complex.

Another option is to create ready-to-launch instances on the major cloud providers. To follow your example, Bitnami has an image on aws that you can run with a couple of clicks. Assuming you non-technical users can follow the aws process to launch an instance.

Another advantage of cloud images is sales, you can leverage their sales team to find new customers.

<comment> open-source-ux I think anything more complex than uploading files into a folder on a server will probably be too complex for many users. The ready-to-launch instance via a cloud provider sounds like it may be a more viable route to pursue. Thanks for the suggestion.

It's a shame there isn't an easy-to-use format/process/standard for installing server-side web apps.

There are a huge number of web apps: how many could find a wider audience (outside of other programmers) if only there was an easy way to install the software? There's definitely an opportunity for a better user experience.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for their comments :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> How about providing docker instances?</comment>


A Brief Introduction to Machine Learning for Engineers (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://arxiv.org/abs/1709.02840 <comment><USER2> This makes a good case for not learning machine learning three years ago. If you wait long enough for new paradigms to coagulate, you can use your energy more wisely during the chaotic transient period (e.g. by spending your effort on time-invariant parts of human knowledge, such as gaining a deeper understanding of parts of pure mathematics, or even philosophy or history), while you wait for a new set of fundamentals to converge, and really solid pedagogical explanations to surface.

The same could be said about skipping the earlier period of javascript frameworks. Had you used your time to learn things that are still useful today, and will remain useful decades in the future, while waiting for the industry to jump here and there, eventually converging to what seems to be a fairly robust steady state (react), then you'd probably be better off today than if you followed along with the hype cycle month after month.

A counter argument is that you might miss out on a lot of the monetary rewards that comes from learning the much desired skill that others don't have the time or will power to tackle in the period where doing so involves a lot of friction.

<comment><USER3> > This makes a good case for not learning machine learning three years ago.

Have you looked at the monograph at all? This could have been written 5 to 10 years ago, 15 years ago, maybe a few sections would have looked a little different. In fact, I like to recommend Mitchell's Machine Learning book (I think it was written in the 90s) as an introduction to people with a serious interest.

There currently is a lot of hype going on for machine learning algorithms, because we see good progress in things like computer vision / pattern recognition. This kicks of a marketing machinery that really blurs the reality.

In reality, we have an established body of methods and modelling techniques that are sufficient, because the available data is the bottleneck for prediction quality. The actual challenge is to come up with a valuable business proposition, not necessarily to build the predictive model.

<comment><USER4> I'd like to point out the fact that there is a split within Machine Learning into "classical" and "Deep Learning"-based one. While Deep Learning are just neural networks with Big Data on GPU, they obliterated many areas of classical ML. What you really want to learn is Deep (+Reinforcement) Learning, or what is coming known as differentiable programming. For classical ML, learn how to use Spark's MLlib and take Ng's Coursera course, that might be all you need from practical point of view.

<comment><USER3> Deep learning has shown to have obliterated much of the computer vision area and other examples where classical approaches such as feature engineering are naturally hard. This comes at a price of a massive hunger for data of Deep Learning models to achieve an acceptable prediction accuracy. So with use cases like image recognition, etc. the relative performance of deep learning models is much better than with classical algorithms.

In general (you'll probably find specific counterexamples for this, but as I said _in general_) the relative performance of deep learning models to classical machine learning may drop below that of classical models when you start looking at medium-sized data sets. And I can assure you, there are many data sets, with many applications for machine learning. And while the world talks about deep learning, I know of many companies, where random forests, suport vector machines or bayesian models have been running for years (which means, cross-validated by data unavailable during model development) with a prediction performance that a business can depend on.

I agree with you that Reinforcement learning will as a technology become much more important in the next years. However, only if exploration is cheap enough. I expect Deep Reinforcement learning not to be the answer, at least not in its current state, but I can very well imagine that we will see more machine-learning-algorithm in the reinforcement-learning-loop experiments. I personally would hope to see more research in the bayesian reinforcement learning area.

<comment><USER4> I know, DL works only if you have massive datasets, DRL is even worse for the number of training episodes. Maybe you've heard about recent craziness of using GANs to generate training set fillers when your training sets are small, i.e. you have only 1,000 examples but need 10,000 for reasonable performance. Instead of gathering more examples, you use GAN to create believable training data, and it seems to be working quite well (i.e. a bump from 60% accuracy to 80% while bigger training dataset with real examples would bump you to 90%).

What I observed is that many ML companies now run two pipelines in parallel, one based on Deep Learning and the other on classical ML, then cherry pick solutions that work best for the problem/scale they have.

<comment><USER3> > I know, DL works only if you have massive datasets, DRL is even worse for > the number of training episodes. Maybe you've heard about recent craziness > of using GANs to generate training set fillers when your training sets are > small, i.e. you have only 1,000 examples but need 10,000 for reasonable > performance. Instead of gathering more examples, you use GAN to create > believable training data, and it seems to be working quite well (i.e. a bump > from 60% accuracy to 80% while bigger training dataset with real examples > would bump you to 90%).

Sounds a bit like Baron Münchhausen pulling himself and the horse on which he was sitting out of a mire by his own hair.

I'd assume that instead of pulling such stunts, a reasonable generative model might have done the trick.

> What I observed is that many ML companies now run two pipelines in parallel, > one based on Deep Learning and the other on classical ML, then cherry pick > solutions that work best for the problem/scale they have.

Putting it this way, I agree. And my personal addendum here is: classical ML outperforms DL more often than the hype might make people think.

<comment><USER4> > Sounds a bit like Baron Münchhausen pulling himself and the horse on which > he was sitting out of a mire by his own hair.

It sounds crazy, but you've likely seen what NVidia did with high-resolution synthetic faces using their progressive GANs; I'd totally use them as training examples without any hesitation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This appears to be an thorough overview of machine learning. Even though many bases are covered, I wish there was more on how to create or select features for machine learning in a systematic way. Feature extraction gets 1 paragraph, but feature engineering and selection aren't mentioned much in the 200+ pages!

I don't have a Phd in machine learning, but I have spent many years using it as a tool to solve problems. While the details here can get you a long way, without understand feature engineering or feature selection, you will have a hard time building accurate models.

For any engineers looking for more on feature engineering after reading this, I maintain an open source library for automated feature engineering called Featuretools ([https://github.com/featuretools/featuretools](https://github.com/featuretools/featuretools)). We also have demos on our website ([https://www.featuretools.com/demos](https://www.featuretools.com/demos)) if you want to see it in action.

<comment><USER6> I was wondering how featuretools differs from [https://github.com/AxeldeRomblay/MLBox](https://github.com/AxeldeRomblay/MLBox) [https://github.com/crawles/automl_service](https://github.com/crawles/automl_service)

and the proprietary and newly launched driverless ai (from h2o)

<comment><USER5> Featuretools focuses on handling data with relational structure and timestamps. Here's an example to explain those two key points.

Imagine you have a relational database from a retail store with tables for customers, transactions, products, and stores.

Featuretools can make a feature matrix for any entity in the database using an algorithm called Deep Feature Synthesis. We wrote a blog post about it here: [https://www.featurelabs.com/blog/deep-feature- synthesis/](https://www.featurelabs.com/blog/deep-feature-synthesis/). Basically, it tries to stack dataset-agnostic "feature primitives" to construct features similar to what human data scientists would create. This means that a data scientist can go from building models about their customers to models about their stores in one line of code.

One aspect worth highlighting is that Featuretools can be extended with custom primitives to expand the set of features in can produce. As the repo of primitives grows, everyone in the community benefits because primitives aren't tied to a specific dataset or use case. Some of our demos highlight this functionality to increase scores on the Kaggle leaderboards.

Featuretools is good at handling time. When performing feature engineering on completely raw data it is important not to mix up time. When your data is timestamped, you can tell Featuretools to create features at any point in time and it automatically slices the data for you (even across relationships between tables!). You want to avoid situations similar to training a machine learning model on stock market data from 2017, testing that it works on data from 2016, and then deploying it and expecting to make money in 2018. You can read more about how featuretools handle time here: [https://docs.featuretools.com/automated_feature_engineering/...](https://docs.featuretools.com/automated_feature_engineering/handling_time.html))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Documents like this (like traditional books) on technical subjects need to be read very carefully, requiring a time commitment that is large relative to the length of a human life or career. Also, they have a huge amount of overlap with other similar documents, so critical choices must be made about what to try to read.

It would be nice to have a high-quality and widely-used set of community ratings for such documents. E.g. a place where

\- new documents can be added

\- they are categorized (automatically should be doable) according to subject matter, level, etc

\- some sort of community voting system (perhaps augmented by automated scoring by well-established predictors) scores each document for its utility/recommendability, in each of the subject areas that it covers.

Does anything like that exist for arXiv?

Do people put general expository material on arXiv? (E.g. lecture notes, textbooks, etc).

</comment><comment><USER8> "Applying Machine Learning Like a Responsible Adult", a 30 minute talk from GDC 2017, is a nice introduction to common machine learning approaches and pitfalls for game developers:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLsKzkxWpK8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLsKzkxWpK8)

</comment><comment><USER9> I think the concept of Machine Learning clashes in many ways with the core values of an engineer. Engineering is about constructing new things, making them correct by design. Machine learning, on the other hand, is throwing data at a problem, waiting for data to be processed, and hoping that the resulting models make sense. While both useful, it requires such a different mindset, that I wonder if engineers would feel satisfied working on such solutions.

<comment> cup-of-tea Using machine learning is indeed more like science than engineering. After all it is just building a model based on data that you have seen. The advantage of using ML is the model can be arbitrarily complex and something you'd never be able to come up with manually. But that model is only a part of a larger project.

To the engineer it seems no different to designing a solution in the context of accepted scientific theories. You can't engineer the theories, they are accepted based on evidence. But you can build the project around it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Another very interesting resource on the subject is the book Introduction to Statistical Learning by Garet James et al [1].

The book introduces the foundational concepts of statistical learning (classification, regression, cross-validation) and algorithms such as support vector machines.

It is also available on PDF at the website [1].

[1] [http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~gareth/ISL/](http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~gareth/ISL/)

</comment><comment><USER11> Funny that in the abstract it aims specifically at electrical engineers, since electrical engineers do machine learning for about six decades now, under different names. Since the invention of the Wiener filter, the Kalman filter, etc...

</comment><comment><USER12> I wish someone said to me a year ago (when I started ML) clearly at the beginning: "Machine Learning is about MATH, deal with it".

It'd be much easier.

<comment><USER13> I think it's very contentious to some people (though I agree that at this stage, ML == mathematics).

I've read quite a few people on the internet who will swear up and down you don't need the mathematics to apply basic models to business problems. I disagree, and I kind of find it weird to divorce the mathematics from it.

<comment><USER3> yes and no. Of course it is absurd to claim you don't need math. On the other hand, I think it is sometimes exaggerated. You'll see this tutorials, that are thorough linear algebra primers and claim that you need it for ML, when in fact you'd only need it to get a thorough understanding of the inner workings. On the other hand, I have seen highly educated math experts pretty much fail to understand, that a L2 norm isn't the best loss function for a business context where a deviation from the truth actually means linear costs. So I'd argue being able to map business problems into the shallow math domain is much more important, than mastering the deep math domain.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I know ML is the new hotness but engineers (proper engineers) have used it for years in basic areas for condition monitoring..

\- hooking up sensor input from your oil pumps to a neural network to understand statistics of your population to predict damage.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condition_monitoring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condition_monitoring)

</comment><comment><USER15> Funny how the author pushes the language to extremes:

      - title: a "brief" introduction (it's 206 pages!)

      - chapter 1: a "gentle" introduction through Linear Regression, where gentle means that the relationships and equations are provided in all their notational beauty, but without the motivation or meaning part.

</comment><comment><USER16> [https://sites.google.com/site/gujjubhaimostwantedgujaratihd/](https://sites.google.com/site/gujjubhaimostwantedgujaratihd/)</comment>


Github Gentoo organization hacked - <AUTHOR> https://www.gentoo.org/news/2018/06/28/Github-gentoo-org-hacked.html <comment><USER2> Here's some clarification from Twitter: [https://twitter.com/jeffhubbs/status/1012450212105850880](https://twitter.com/jeffhubbs/status/1012450212105850880)

As mentioned by wtallis, this is a Github only problem. Gentoo hosts their own infra, with the Github org being nothing more than a downstream mirror.

<comment><USER3> That would seem to warrant a title change for clarity by itself, but the article being referenced by this submission _also_ clearly says (the and submission URL slug even says) " _Github_ Gentoo organization hacked".

<comment><USER2> It was originally titled "Gentoo Linux Organization Has Been Hacked" when I made that post :)

<comment><USER3> Which is odd, because I first noted in my comment that it might have changed, then I noticed the article slug HN had matched the page title at the time I was commenting, so I edited it to note that instead. I figured if the article slug used that wording, it was likely the title at posting time, and it was unlikely to have changed and changed back, but I guess either that happened, or HN updates links when it finds permanent redirects (assuming an old URL exists and redirects).

In any case, thanks for the submission. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Title needs to mention that this is specifically the _github_ organization account, not Gentoo in general.</comment>


Ask HN: how to sell an early stage startup? - <AUTHOR>

I'm part of a startup that hasn't got the founders' interest anymore, so we're looking to sell off the company with all of its technology assets.
The assets include the source code (obviously) for both the web API and site as well as additional user software created for the desktop.  Of course, the existing userbase is included.
What are some methods used to sell small enterprises such as this?  What caveats are there to consider?  I know that this topic has been raised before but the answers have mostly covered website-only sales (without software).
Are there brokerages as well as online 'auction' sites?
Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> You might consider listing it on flippa.com. Flippa is a popular place to sell web properties, but typically focuses on smaller sales (most are in the tens of thousands of dollars, at best). I've heard anecdotally that most sellers can expect to get 1-3x yearly revenue.

</comment><comment><USER3> Are there competitioners in your field? They'd be the obvious buyers for your startup. If your software is really superior they might even consider it as a replacement for their existing software.

</comment><comment><USER4> If you have a significant asset in the software, I'd advise using a broker, who will probably have a specialised client list. There's a full list of brokers here - [http://www.flipfilter.com/blog/2010/10/01/how-to-find- websit...](http://www.flipfilter.com/blog/2010/10/01/how-to-find-websites-for- sale-35-sites-ranked/)</comment>


Shuold we add Internet Exporer Support - <AUTHOR>

Our new SaaS project http://collabable.com (currently in Beta) is progressing niceley, we are however aware of a number of rendering issues with Internet Exlorer (6,7 and 8).<p>After looking at the analytics it looks like only 4% of our user base is running Internet Explorer. Like most software houses, for us, Internet Explorer is dead but until now we have always been keen to keep support for it as its still touted (in some sections) as the most used browser. Clearly for our demographic its not well used, so simple question, Shuold we kill IE support? <comment><USER2> _Clearly for our demographic its not well used_

But the question is: does the low rate of IE users mean that there is no demand, or that your IE support is driving away potential customers?

Clearly, you need to weigh the opportunity costs of adding IE support against the revenue increase you believe you'll see in the marketplace afterwards.

My guess, in the absence of any evidence whatsoever, is that there are other things you could do with an equivalent amount of time/money that would do more to enhance your revenue.

</comment><comment><USER3> DEATH TO IE! BURN IT DOWN TO THE GROUND!</comment>