Ask HN: Best way to receive payment? No bank account or PayPal - <AUTHOR> Hi,
I'm from Brazil, I don't have a bank account with SWIFT access nor PayPal, I've been trying to explore different options for getting paid by international clients and I haven't found any.
Every time I mention Bitcoin to clients they just laugh and don't take me seriously, Bitwage looks interesting but I haven't tried it yet, it also sounds a bit risky.
Any suggestions please? <comment><USER2> Here are some Paypal alternatives: [http://lifehacker.com/5821634/why-you- should-ditch-paypal-an...](http://lifehacker.com/5821634/why-you-should-ditch- paypal-and-use-these-other-services-to-send-people-money)

I don't know if they let you receive payments without a bank account or credit card.

In the USA the Patriot Act requires bank account verification for online payments to prevent terrorists from using services. Since Paypal and other companies are in the USA they have to follow US law. Even if you are in Brazil.

You might have to have someone write you a check and use that to create a bank account for use with Paypal.

Even if they pay to a Bitcoin address, how can you withdraw money without using a bank account?

<comment><USER3> Everything outside of USA is called a terrorist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hi Grover,

Jonathan Chester from Bitwage here. We can definitely help you receive your wages in Brazil. We specialize in helping international freelancers invoice their companies without necessarily requiring the company to sign up. We already have freelancers/contractors receiving payments as well as employers sending payments over.

We currently help freelancers, contractors and workers receive wages from large companies such as Facebook, Google and even the U.S. Navy. We have received investment from top quality investors, such as Tim Draper through Draper Associates, and Orange Silicon Valley through Orange Fab. We also have insurance and have been vetted by top rated cyber liability insurance experts in order to obtain this insurance.

You can find media on us by searching us online or checking out these resources:

[http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-payroll-startup- raises-760k-...](http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-payroll-startup- raises-760k-new-funding/)

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanchester/2015/12/03/start...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanchester/2015/12/03/starting- bitwage-an-international-payroll-company-that-uses-bitcoin/#191de7cd16d0)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwage)

If you are interested and would like to learn more, please email me at firstname.lastname@example.com

Best,

Jonathan

</comment><comment><USER5> Non-judgemental question here, but why don't you have a standard bank account in Brazil that is internationally recognized? e.g. local banks in most countries still participate in SWIFT for wire transfers etc. From a quick look at SWIFT codes, there are a lot of banks in Brazil that participate internationally and have a SWIFT code. That all said, I know in the U.S. there are plenty of people that have a hard time getting a bank account for various reasons, and it can be really hard for them to participate in business transactions where they are not physically present.

I would say the easiest way is if you had an account people could wire money to (even if you immediately withdrew it), it is simple, predictable and easy enough to do. Outside of that, getting paid by U.S. companies will likely be difficult and may prevent you from getting any significant work from here. U.S. companies have to comply with lots of reasonable and valid laws along with some horribly stupid ones too, but for us to keep our companies/accounts in good standing most comply. I would also think that most U.S. companies would not take you very seriously even as a freelancer if you don't have some sort of a bank account, regardless of whether anyone feels it is fair or not that is likely the reality. Bitcoin is good and all, but from what I have seen it is still fairly fringe for outgoing payment transactions at most companies.

I am not judging but just thinking of the realities if you are trying to do business in the U.S. And from having personally done a little business in Europe it is basically very similar in the overall structure & hoops you have to go through as a non-citizen to get paid, although there are some differences of course. Not that the U.S. and Europe are the only markets to find clients, but I am assuming you are trying to target businesses from both.

</comment><comment><USER6> check out payoneer prepaid debit cards. they are widely used by freelancers in south america, asia, eastern europe and the US clients are fine with them, given you get a virtual US bank account. verification is simple. all it takes is a scanned copy of your passport or ID. payoneer could be also used to verify a paypal account

</comment><comment><USER7> Have you tried Western Union?

</comment><comment><USER8> Skrill (Moneybookers) ?</comment>


Erlang By Example - <AUTHOR> http://www.pragprog.com/screencasts/v-kserl/erlang-by-example <comment><USER2> I'm not sure how I feel about paying for screencasts. I trust the pragprogs and all, but I think I'll wait until I hear some reviews.

<comment><USER3> I still prefer books, papers and articles. Much faster for information transfer.

Pragprog seems to position screencasts as being like sitting next to an experienced programmer. I don't think it's true. I don't think there's a good substitute for actually working with someone smarter than you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Yeah, I dunno. I'm down with Erlang but I like examples that I can copy and paste.</comment>


The Power of Twitter Accounts With Massive Followers - Or Lack Thereof - <AUTHOR> http://singularityhub.com/2009/09/16/the-power-of-twitter-accounts-with-massive-followers-or-lack-thereof/

<comment><USER2> Seems to be a lot of speculation. Would have liked to see the actual numbers as well as whether their follower numbers increased at all. Stopped reading when the predictions started.</comment>


Self-Driving Cars Are Eating the Airline Industry. Here's How - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/youareonthefastestroute/self-driving-cars-are-eating-the-airline-industry-heres-how-b1a4a4a972f <comment><USER2> > That means that a passenger could leave at 8 PM in a sleeper self-driving > car, and arrive well rested at 11 AM the following morning.

Unless the vehicle has restrooms and refrigeration, there's also the need for food and periodic bladder/bowel maintenance, which will likely negate the speed advantage.

<comment><USER3> Offhand thought, what happens if you have a express highways for autonomous cars where they can run 100-120 mph. AKA, no trucks[1], no slower vehicles.

One say next to I5 in California might drop the SF to LA drive time from 6 hours to 4. And it's door to door.

[1] When you ban heavy trucks the cost of roads drops dramatically.</comment></comment>


The Beauty of Roots (2011) - <AUTHOR> http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/roots/ <comment><USER2> Thread from 2016: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12280702](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12280702)

2014: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8218980](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8218980)

2009: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=980043](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=980043)

</comment><comment><USER3> That was beautiful. Kids can benefit from this stuff because it looks amazing and it reminds me of fractals</comment>


Ask HN: Is GPGTools still OpenSource? - <AUTHOR>

since a few month GPGTools releases closed source beta-versions and the Github Repository is not updated anymore! Really strange for an open-source security software? <comment><USER2> Have you ever looked at the commits dates?

[https://gpgtools.org/](https://gpgtools.org/)

[https://gpgtools.org/opensource.html](https://gpgtools.org/opensource.html)

[https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGMail/commits/dev](https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGMail/commits/dev)

[https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGKeychainAccess/commits/dev](https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGKeychainAccess/commits/dev)

[https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGServices](https://github.com/GPGTools/GPGServices)

[https://github.com/GPGTools/MacGPG2/commits/dev](https://github.com/GPGTools/MacGPG2/commits/dev)</comment>


How to Upgrade the Windows 7 RC to RTM (Final Release) - <AUTHOR> http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/3075/how-to-upgrade-the-windows-7-rc-to-rtm/

<comment><USER2> Scott Hanselman has been warning folks that this is not supported, and that also, there is a known issue with upgrading an OS that has the VS2010 beta installed.

I started down the RC-to-RTM path, but quickly changed my mind and just did a fresh install. Naturally, YMMV.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm doing it now and will report back. I've got the thing running in a VM so all should be fine.</comment></comment>


Show HN: An Automated Billing Platform for Freelancers and Small Businesses - <AUTHOR> http://soverpay.com <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN, after about 5 years teaching myself to program and starting then not finishing projects for some reason or the other, this is my first web app that has made it into production. I'l love any feedback you all may have.</comment>


What's Wrong with Object-Oriented Programming? - <AUTHOR> http://www.yegor256.com/2016/08/15/what-is-wrong-object-oriented-programming.html <comment><USER2> I'd like to see an example of a good, non-OOP program.

<comment><USER3> [http://www.projectoberon.com/](http://www.projectoberon.com/) maybe?</comment></comment>


Show HN: SolutionBot – find competition for your startup idea - <AUTHOR> http://solutionbot.github.io/

<comment><USER2> I would like to try your product but I'm not going to try it if I have to enter my email address. And especially because you don't say why I need to enter my email address - seems like you might be building an email list

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback! No, I am not building an email list, but I understand your concerns. I have to think about better approach.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> What's up with the mandatory email? I want to try it out but I don't trust you enough to give you my email address, and you're blocking temp email providers.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are right, it shouldn't be working like this. I need to redesign this solution. Thanks for the feedback!</comment></comment>


Six Years In. A Few Thoughts on Foursquare - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@dens/six-years-in-a-few-thoughts-on-foursquare-1ec31cbbe51c

<comment><USER2> My sister used to be a FourSquare addict.

They took away mayors and badges, all the fun stuff.

Now she doesn't use it.</comment>


Domino's is going to use sidewalk robots in Germany to deliver pizza - <AUTHOR> https://www.recode.net/2017/3/29/15100748/dominos-deliver-pizza-robots-germany-starship <comment><USER2> I'm surprised there aren't fifty million examples "on campuses" of this.

1\. robotics & business club goes to school for permission

2\. find local businesses to deliver items for to dorms.

3\. ...?</comment>


Ask HN: Usefulness of being mentor in Google CodeIn - <AUTHOR> Hey, I'm curious about how useful it is for the individual who mentors for any of the project in Google Code In.
Feel free to include whatever kind of benefits you see in picking up such a role. Thanks. <comment><USER2> Students get experience with open source. Google gets some mind-share. You get contributions and potential new contributors. Seems like a win-win.</comment>


Attack of the Week: Apple iMessage - <AUTHOR> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2016/03/attack-of-week-apple-imessage.html <comment><USER2> If you're struggling to understand the impact of this iMessage flaw, remember that it requires either a Root CA or Apple's help to work. If you're considering an attacker with access to a Root CA, then you have problems far beyond iMessage crypto.

It is certainly a good defense-in-depth measure to implement the recommendations from JHU and it's great that Apple has moved aggressively with them. Those mitigations will protect even from a catastrophic "goto fail"-type bug in the future where you could strip away TLS.

That leaves Apple cooperating with law enforcement (or an Apple insider, coerced or otherwise) to launch this attack against one of their users. I think this scenario is unlikely given their very public reaction to the iOS 9 backdoor the FBI requested.

Finally, I think their development of the gzip oracle is pretty great and that it has the potential to work against other cryptosystems. This is probably not the last that you'll hear of it. I suspect the JHU team is running down a list of other cryptosystems that it could work against right now...

<comment><USER3> Format oracles against compressed protocols are actually already a thing, so, yes, this attack is a pretty useful outline of attacks against other protocols.

The _underlying_ problem here is unauthenticated encryption (or, MAC-then- encrypt constructions, which, when it comes to adaptive chosen ciphertext attacks, are often morally the same thing). Unauthenticated encryption is a game-over flaw, probably no matter what the rest of the protocol does.

<comment><USER4> The problem here was that authentication could be stripped and substituted (digital signatures).

<comment><USER3> Different sense of the word "authentication"!

What you (and, no doubt, the Apple engineers) are thinking of as authentication is really a _signature_. Signatures and authenticators aren't the same thing.

Here, we're referring to _message_ authentication, which is the mechanism of using a secret key (usually agreed on at the same time as the secret key for the cipher itself) to apply a "secure checksum" to the ciphertext, to ensure it isn't tampered with.

Trying to use a signature in lieu of an authenticator is what got Apple in trouble here. In addition to ECDSA signatures, those messages also should have used a MAC, or, better still, an encryption mode with a MAC built in, like OCB or EAX or NORX.

<comment><USER5> If messages come from one known-good source (e.g. firmware updates), a digital signature is a valid message authenticator. Where this falls down is in multi- user settings (e.g. iMessage), where secret-key authentication via MAC becomes a necessity.

I'd still recommend always to use an authenticated cipher, since the above distinction can be very fine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The Cryptographic Doom principle strikes again! [http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-cryptographic-doom- prin...](http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/the-cryptographic-doom-principle/)

The article refers to it more precisely as "similar to the padding oracle attack discovered by Vaudenay", but this root problem -- malleability -- keeps coming up _so often_ even in relatively mature attempts at crypto that the appeal-to-emotion "Doom" name seems worth using.

<comment><USER7> Some other attempts to raise aware of ciphertext malleability and AEAD modes:

* [https://tonyarcieri.com/all-the-crypto-code-youve-ever-writt...](https://tonyarcieri.com/all-the-crypto-code-youve-ever-written-is-probably-broken)

* [https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/05/using-encryption-and-auth...](https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/05/using-encryption-and-authentication-correctly)

* Many articles on [http://www.cryptofails.com](http://www.cryptofails.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Direct link to the paper (since it's a bit hidden in the blog post): [https://isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/imessage.pdf](https://isi.jhu.edu/~mgreen/imessage.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER9> So the setup is... All iMessage has to start with is some unspecified sender who has your public key and wants to send you a message. Sender will RSA-OAEP a random key to the receiver's public key, but then for some reason they are doing encrypt-then-sign, which doesn't really accomplish much because an attacker can just substitute their own signature.

The receiver can't know where the ciphertext they are being sent actually originated.... Just strip the signature from the original sender, add back your own, keep the RSA-OAEP blob which is holding the encryption key as-is, and then start tampering with the AES-CTR ciphertext. Having found an oracle (a way to know if decryption succeeded or not) in the attachment download code, it was just a matter of the hard work of making the bits dance just right to use the oracle to deduce the key.

In this attack the RSA-OAEP encrypted nonce is left alone. The fix they propose at the end is to cache this part of the message for a while to not allow replay. But I don't understand... why not instead derive authentication and encryption keys from the random 'k' and use it to append a MAC to the AES- CTR ciphertext, like an IES?

Given RSA-OAEP is "IND-CCA2", it is not vulnerable to chosen cipertext. That means it's "safe" to touch the RSA and decrypt before authenticating anything. At that point you then have enough to generate an authentication key to run an HMAC on the "hot" AES-CTR ciphertext before proceeding any further. I guess the obvious appeal of just caching the RSA'd 'k' to prevent replay instead of something like this is that neither the crypto nor even the message format have to change.

Alternatively, what you see in X25519, is the sender generates an ephemeral keypair and does ECDH with their private key and the receiver's public key to get a shared secret. Sender can then use the shared secret to do any standard authenticated symmetric encryption they want. Receiver will need the sender's ephemeral public key on their end to ECDH the same shared secret. In this case, again, as long as the asymmetric crypto is IND-CCA2 the receiver can safely figure out the shared secret and an authentication key before they have to touch any hot sauce.

Actually pulling of a working exploit with 2^18 messages while having to mangle ciphertext and keep gzip happy is really impressive! But at the same time, encrypt-then-sign with no MAC obviously will fail given an oracle, and oracles will always exist. So.... why did Apple do it this way, and why not just fix the underlying crypto and instead hack around with anti-replay?

</comment><comment><USER10> > ...attacks on a key server seem fundamentally challenging to implement -- > since they require the ability to actively manipulate Apple infrastructure > without getting caught.

Tell that to Belgacom [1]! If the NSA can tap the inner networks of Google's fibre connections as they traverse the Atlantic, then they can infiltrate Apple whilst juggling chainsaws.

Apple are probably the market leader in branding. Their hardware is top notch but their services are flaky and feel hacked together.

That doesn't bode well when it comes to securing message protocols and networks. In addition, much of Apple's services run in the cloud on Microsoft Azure and Amazon AWS. I doubt we can consider then safe havens from the snooping, driving, hacking five eyes.

[1] [https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq- insid...](https://theintercept.com/2014/12/13/belgacom-hack-gchq-inside- story/)

</comment><comment><USER11> I'd be over the moon if iMessage turns cross platform and adopts Signal/Axolotl under the hood. iMessage UX is much better than Signal's and it just works.

<comment><USER12> It's too bad Signal isn't used more widely. I even deleted it from my iPhone because of its very high data usage for contact discovery: about ~5MB for every(!) change in my iPhone contacts. And after over six months, a fix has not been released yet [1] (and a new release doesn't seem planned for anytime soon).

[1] [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal- iOS/issues/866](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-iOS/issues/866)

<comment><USER13> The reason why I don't use signal is because it uploads all my contacts to their server, something which I don't want. I don't mind adding a contact by hand.

I currently use Threema, which seems to be pretty secure. Unfortunately, it is not open source. A killer feature in Threema ist that you can exchange (and verify I believe) the certificates physicly. You just scan the other party's qr code (it think it is either the fingerprint or the public key) and it saves it to the contact (it will not save it to your phone it will just remember that user with the id ABC uses that certificate. But until it is open sourced, we can only use the good ole PGP.

<comment><USER12> Signal tried to avoid uploading contacts by downloading an encrypted bloom filter to match contacts on the device instead. Unfortunately this doesn't work out with many users (causing large downloads), so they ditched the feature.

Reference and more details: [https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact- discovery/](https://whispersystems.org/blog/contact-discovery/)

Commit that removes bloom filters (unreleased, will be in version 2.4): [https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal- iOS/commit/26f9207c...](https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal- iOS/commit/26f9207cab06e4df4af3dc9c02deca3d250eb4ae)

<comment><USER11> Wait, are you saying that encrypted contact discovery has been removed because it's "hard to do"??

I would think that's a pretty big change to be announced other than a blog post. I reread the post and the only mention is "For TextSecure, however, we've grown beyond the size where that remains practical, so the only thing we can do is write the server such that it doesn't store the transmitted contact information, inform the user, and give them the choice of opting out".

That's pretty WTF to me. Disabling access to contacts now and back to wishing for my unicorn messaging app.

<comment><USER14> No, it was removed because it "used 5MB for every change". I also wish for an app that would defy reality, but, until then, telling a server who your friends are so it can check, without telling it who your friends are, is a hard problem to solve.

<comment><USER15> There is nothing reality defying about meeting up and exchanging keys in person. Unfortunately, that's a use case the Signal UI goes out of its way to discourage.

It's not like they don't know how, copying Threema's UI would be a massive improvement. Hell, even Snapchat lets you add a friend by scanning their screen, it's not like it's some user hostile ivory tower feature.

<comment><USER14> Signal does too. We're talking about contact discovery, not key verification. Contact discovery is the problem of, given a list of contacts, returning the ones that are on the service.

Contact discovery without the server seeing the list of contacts is hard.

<comment><USER11> Given that the way Signal presents contacts is suboptimal too (contacts showing up irregardless if they have Signal installed only someone else uploaded said contact), I'd rather have a mode where I have to manually exchange contact info until such time secure contact exchange is solved.

<comment><USER14> Isn't that easily achieved by not giving Signal access to your contacts?

<comment><USER11> Try it with the current version.

If you disable access to contacts, all it does is complain about access with no way to bypass.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> a little bit tangential, but is it known how received imessages are able to be decrypted on multiple devices?

if the sender's message encryption key is encrypted with my iphone's public key, then my iphone's private key is the only key that can recover the the key used for the message.

so then how can desktop imessage also recover the key and decrypt the message? it seems like either: * private keys are shared between devices (doesn't seem good) * imessages are encrypted multiple times based on the number of registered devices the recipient has (plausible?)

<comment><USER17> Schemes using multiple keys exist. [1]

1\. [http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/03/gpg-encryption-to- mult...](http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/03/gpg-encryption-to-multiple- recipients/)

<comment><USER18> Should I feel bad for opening that link on iPad? (Got redirected here: [http://no-hipsters-allowed.t28.net](http://no-hipsters-allowed.t28.net))

<comment><USER19> It looks like it works based on the referer. Anyone from HN is tagged as a hipster. Copy the link and paste into a new tab.

<comment><USER20> Why even bother with that link if he's going to be so ridiculous with the redirect?

<comment><USER19> Who knows. I imagine that the original linker had no idea of the functionality when he linked to the site.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Attack of the week on Monday, huh...

</comment><comment><USER22> i think this was put in there on purpose</comment>


Carlos Ghosn Berates Japan, Nissan Executives in First Public Comments - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/carlos-ghosn-set-to-tell-his-side-of-the-story-11578472943 <comment><USER2> He has shown quite a talent at savaging the Japanese justice system, the prosecutors, and Nissan executives who colluded together. Too bad he decided to refrain himself from naming the government officials involved, that would have been yummy.

The conference stream : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4KH7_TwV0M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4KH7_TwV0M)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is worthy of a Broadway musical</comment>


How Sega Saturn's 20-year old drm was finally cracked - <AUTHOR> http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/10/how-sega-saturns-20-year-old-drm-was-finally-cracked/ <comment><USER2> Seriously?

"It was one of the first gaming consoles to use a dual-core processor" \- no, it had 2 physical main processors

"also had a Motorola 64k processor" \- um, apparently the 68000 has lost 4000 with time?

</comment><comment><USER3> when this was first announced a few months back there was this discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12074096](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12074096)</comment>


Tesla cuts prices as Model 3 deliveries narrowly miss estimates - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-02/tesla-cuts-prices-as-model-3-deliveries-narrowly-miss-estimates <comment><USER2> "Automaker sold 63,150 Model 3 in the fourth quarter" \- [and this is only in North America] What Tesla has achieved is truly unbelievable and it is kind of hilarious to see HN meltdown and Tesla bashing. To give you a perspective on how much of a gigantic scale this is, BMW only sold 99,000 3/4 series in the US in all on 2017 [1]. Tesla is a carmaker who only sold ~100 vehicles in 2011. It is amazing how much of Tesla's success is under-appreciated in this forum.

[1] [http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales- data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4...](http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales- data/bmw/bmw-3-series-4-series/)

<comment><USER3> Meanwhile, Toyota, which is only at 3x the market cap of Tesla, sold >2,200,000 vehicles in Q4. It ships more combined battery capacity in its hybrids, then Tesla does in its EVs.

<comment><USER4> I think you are misestimating. Toyota sells ~1.5 million hybrids (plugin and otherwise) per year. If I'm not mistaken, the average capacity is ~6kwh. That works out to 9,000,000 KWh (9 GWh).

Tesla sold about 250,000 cars last year, with an average pack size of at least 70 KWh. That works out to 17,500,000 KWh (17.5 GWh).

Obviously, these are estimates, but Tesla is also running at a pace closer to ~320k units for next year with only marginally smaller pack sizes.

Revenue is another interesting metric. Toyota is at ~280 billion/year (USD). Tesla is currently at ~27 billion/year.

<comment><USER5> I think even these estimates of Toyotas battery capacity are too high. Here's my attempt:

Prius Prime PHEV: 8.8 kWh Regular Prius: I couldn't find recent numbers, but 1st gen was 1.2 kWh

All other hybrids seem to have between 1-2 kWh [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive#High_volt...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive#High_voltage_battery)

European PHEV sales were 0.3% of all sales and 0.65% of all hybrids [1]

US Prius Prime 2017 sales (I think their only PHEV model) were 21k units. [2] Note that 21k units just in the US out of 1.5m hybrids total gives us 1.4%, so maybe the PHEV prius is not selling as well in Europe.

Let's say we have the following scenarios of 2.5 or 5% of the total 1.5m number being PHEV to be conservative. Further assume that regular hybrids have 1.5 kWh. For the 2.5% scenario, if my math is correct, that yields 550,000 kWh. For the 5% PHEV scenario, that yields 874,000 kWh.

[1] [https://insideevs.com/only-0-3-of-toyota-sales-in-europe- wer...](https://insideevs.com/only-0-3-of-toyota-sales-in-europe-were-plug-in- hybrids/) [2] 2017 table from [https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales- scorecard/](https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/)

<comment><USER4> Oh, nice job finding ratios of the PHEV to the rest. I felt like I was probably overestimating, but it was hard to get a feel for how much. I agree that the real number is likely closer to your estimates.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The production and delivery numbers they came out with were very good and higher than most had expected. These numbers will allow them another profitable Q4 likely higher than their Q3 numbers.

The price cuts are likely to impact margins, but is in line with what Tesla had done with the Model S and X as production efficiencies allow them to reduce manufacturing costs.

The reaction looks like a big overreaction as the market is apt to do. Seems like there is a lot of Tesla hate on the internet for some odd reason these days.

<comment><USER7> At $50B Market Cap, Tesla should be delivering at least $2B Annual profits.

It's clear Tesla has run through higher margin demand. There aren't many people in the world who can afford a $50,000 car. Tesla is a niche market car, but priced as a mass market (like iPhones) product.

Expect Tesla's sustainable profit to be around $500 Mil per year and it's share price must be cut in half to justify that

<comment><USER8> Once Jaguar, Porsche and Audi are able to produce electric cars in quantity, things are going to get interesting. For instance, I was recently looking at the Jaguar I-Pace, and was stunned by how long the wait and how high the markups are. Clearly there's a demand for a $100,000 electric car, but things are going to get difficult for Tesla once the competition arrives.

<comment><USER9> Competition has been arriving for quite a while though. Having just bought a Tesla, I can tell you I'm starting to appreciate more than just intellectually the huge network of chargers and other infrastructure that company has laid out. It's not perfect but anyone else wanting to play in this market will need the same, and Jaguar is in no position to do it. I don't think anyone at Tesla is losing any sleep over Jaguar TBH but they might be looking intensely towards Toyota.

<comment><USER10> I live in a nice part of LA and I see as many iPace's as Teslas, and the iPace has only been available for about 3 months locally.

And the iPace owners are absolutely _glowing_ in their reviews of the car in a way I've never heard Tesla owners get. Indeed--while most Tesla owners I know talk their heads off about the charging network[1], they tend to be defensive about the actual quality of the car itself in ways that luxury car buyers shouldn't be.

[1] While Tesla has a geographically large charging network, it's density is pretty horrible. In DTLA for example, you're 9 miles away from the closest Supercharger, and condo/apartment dwellers are SOL for installing their own unless they want to pay excessive fees to have one installed in their parking spot. There are a number of standard EV chargers through the downtown area, and the number of non-Tesla chargers exceeds the number of Tesla-only chargers by a factor of at least 10:1.

<comment><USER9> We must be living on a different planet then if you never heard a Tesla owner go on and on about how much they love their cars. Before buying one 4 days ago I had plenty of that kind of experience.

<comment><USER10> I know quite a few Tesla owners, and they all love the _idea_ of the car far more than the actual cars themselves. After about a week, reality sets in and the misaligned panels, haphazardly responsive touchscreen, and relatively pedestrian interior furnishings start becoming noticeable. After about 2 weeks, the Tesla owners who don't live in homes (i.e., condo/apartment dwellers) even start to get annoyed at the charging cycle, since the Superchargers in the LA area are not very convenient to get to and it's roughly $10k-$20k (per charger) to get a charger installed in their parking structure. One Tesla owner, who evangelized the car before buying it, eventually sold his Model 3 (one of the first sold to the general public) and, in his words, "upgraded" to the iPace.

Also, I've ridden in all of the Teslas (including the Roadsters, thanks to a former boss who collected cars) and the Model 3, while comfortable enough, is only roughly as comfortable as my Camry and certainly isn't as comfortable as the $65k+ cars other friends drive. IMO, this is Tesla's big problem. Their cars are expensive, but you're paying a lot of money for the brand and while that can get you started, in the auto market you eventually have to start competing based on features like comfort, etc.

<comment><USER11> As a Model 3 owner, I have never been happier or more impressed with any car I have ever driven.

It's more fun to drive than my old Camero SS. It's more comfortable than my old Infiniti. I absolutely love the interior aesthetic. And I just paid $3,500 to PPF wrap it because I think it's absolutely gorgeous and I want to keep it looking that way.

Oh, and I paid $45k not $65k, and it saves me at least $100 a month on top of that.

You are blowing smoke with "roughly as comfortable as a Camry". The ride quality is better than BMW in my opinion, and that's before throwing in the mental benefits of Autopilot combined with no engine noise making my commute the most peaceful part of my day.

<comment><USER10> I rode in a Model 3 several times this past weekend and my Camry 3 all this week. They are absolutely on par comfort-wise. Can't compare to an Infiniti since I've never ridden in one, but the Model 3 can't hold a candle to the Lexus's, BMW's, or Audi's I've ridden in.

<comment><USER11> The driving experience and handling is waaaaay better than my wife's Mercedes. I can't really say from a passenger perspective.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This actually a price increase because of a loss of the federal tax credit... the title is bogus and should be changed imho.

"Moving beyond the success of Q4, we are taking steps to partially absorb the reduction of the federal EV tax credit (which, as of January 1st, dropped from $7,500 to $3,750). Starting today, we are reducing the price of Model S, Model X and Model 3 vehicles in the U.S. by $2,000."

[http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release- details/tesla...](http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release- details/tesla-q4-2018-vehicle-production-deliveries-also-announcing-2000)

Edit: the mods changed the title. thank you!

<comment><USER13> In what way is it a price increase, why did Tesla count tax credits when advertising price in the first place? Isn't that dishonest, since the cars price tag was higher and the government gave them money?

<comment><USER14> The purchaser factors the tax credit in, so the removal of the credit will have the same effect as an increase in price.

The salesman will _definitely_ make the purchaser aware of the credit, in the same way that a mortgage broker makes you aware of the tax benefit on mortgage interest (in the US).

That doesn't make them dishonest.

<comment><USER15> They also tried to include "cost of gas savings" in some of their "line item" website pricing.

<comment><USER16> TCO seems like an entirely reasonable figure to advertise. It's a hard number to trust, but I'm not sure how that gets fixed except by trying to regulate advertisement in general.

<comment><USER15> I think putting a number of "$x" on a page, and only when you click into the details, seeing "Estimated fuel cost savings: $y" as one of the line items there is totally misleading.

TCO is a reasonable figure to discuss, especially when changing paradigms. It's not, however, reasonable, to include in a line item for vehicle cost that is not in any possible practical way to attain (at least the fed credits are more concrete) - imagine you go into a Tesla dealership and it says "$35,000" and you say "Sold!", and they reply "Great, that'll be $38,000".

"But...?" "Oh, that price was only to give you a TCO after you factor in three years of gas you're not buying now! It's not an actual discount or credit".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Seems like the bigger issue is that they once again missed their delivery targets, although only by a few percent this time.

<comment><USER18> Is not the historical lesson thus far maybe that the market does not care about missing them as long as the general growth story is still there?

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The second line in the article:

> Prices cut by $2,000 to partially offset shrinking tax credit.

At that cost range I don't know if I could ever know my customer well enough that I would be confident that a 3% price break would get more sales but what do I know. Also, this feels more like PR.

What fraction of the cost of a Tesla is the battery pack? Weren't those supposed to be getting cheaper due to all of the automation?

When your costs decline you lower your prices, add more features or increase your margins.

<comment><USER20> _At that cost range I don't know if I could ever know my customer well enough that I would be confident that a 3% price break would get more sales but what do I know._

Would I have purchased a Nissan Leaf eight years ago had it not been for the $7500 federal tax credit? Damned right, I would have. But since we're buying one anyway, I'm not turning down free money. My point is, I wonder if there ought to be a moratorium on tax credits for the first two years. The early adopters are going to buy one regardless, save the tax credits for those that are on the fence two years down the road. Of course the gaping hole in this plan is something, something Osborne Computers (in two years, it might not be better, but it'll be cheaper).

<comment><USER21> The tax credits aren't for the consumer, they're for the manufacturer.

> The early adopters are going to buy one regardless,

Some of them will. The idea that there's isn't a demand curve for early adopters is insane.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> just look at google trends, Model S/3/X still trending higher while I-pace pal plateaued

</comment><comment><USER23> Tesla is the ONLY player with a direct to consumer model. They are a native EV start up. All others right now are legacy car makers (non native) using the old franchise distribution model. Tesla OS is its bread and butter. They built the vehicle from scratch for EV. They effectively "PULLED" ever other car maker into the MIX. The legacy car makers had no other choice but to jump into the fray and take their chances.

<comment><USER24> >Tesla is the ONLY player with a direct to consumer model

You are saying it like it's necessarily a good thing.

<comment><USER23> A fundamental principle of competition is that consumers – not regulation – should determine what they buy and how they buy it. Consumers may benefit from the ability to buy cars directly from manufacturers – whether they are shopping for luxury cars or economy vehicles. The same competition principles should apply in either case. States should allow consumers to choose not only the cars they buy, but also how they buy them.

<comment><USER24> First watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ro6kpKlw0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ro6kpKlw0)

Choice quote from the discussion on reddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/abkk12/what_did_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/abkk12/what_did_you_do_with_my_tesla_elon/ed11wgz/)

"The takeaway from this video, if no one has gotten the message by now, is that Tesla only cares about the sale of new Teslas, which it doesn't do very well. It does not care about selling used Tesla, servicing existing customers, or supplying parts to customers.

Tesla made a shittier dealership and calls it innovation. It's hilarious that it is simultaneously waging war on the dealership laws while doing the dealership thing so poorly that it's like exhibit A in why dealership laws maybe aren't that bad. If Tesla were this bad at being a car company pre- dealership laws it would have been the reason they came into being in the first place."

<comment><USER25> Eh. I struggle to see what dealerships actually do at all. They don't make the car...why are they the only ones allowed to sell it?

Also, that quote is just wrong. They didn't make a "shittier dealership". They don't have dealerships at all.

<comment><USER24> >Also, that quote is just wrong. They didn't make a "shittier dealership". They don't have dealerships at all.

Where do you go when your Tesla breaks down? Yearly check-ups? Used Tesla sales? The fact that they are a direct representative of Tesla themselves changes very little for you as the consumer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Tesla is definitely hitting the demand ceiling. It's a good thing Musk isn't producing 10000 M3 per week. The current rate of ~4500 per week is enough to meet demand.

In fact, expect continuous price drops from Tesla as it struggles to drum up enthusiasm

<comment><USER26> I'm not pro-Tesla, I think they're horribly mismanaged, but let's be real.

The Model 3 is selling well, and ONLY in the US. Even if they hit peak demand they can just start selling to Europe and China (planned for later this year) and they'll have plenty of new customers.

<comment><USER27> China has a higher barrier to entry than any other market, esp. in the EV market, which is going to favor the homegrown options. The current trade war isn't going to help Tesla. My prediction is that Tesla remains a novelty brand in Asia. Japan is similarly capable of taking care of its own market, and I wouldn't want to take on Toyota when it comes to exports to South Asia, Africa, etc.

<comment><USER28> > China has a higher barrier to entry than any other market, esp. in the EV > market, which is going to favor the homegrown options.

Tesla is already positioned ahead of other auto makers with the construction of the Gigafactory 3 along with a deal with the Shanghai government to build a wholly-owned local factory (a notable exception).

<comment><USER27> Not ahead of Chinese automakers. And Tesla is paying for the privilege of that foothold. Meanwhile, Toyota is firing up battery supply in Thailand. Not to mention that Panasonic and Chinese suppliers are the real source of Tesla batteries.

<comment><USER28> >Not ahead of Chinese automakers. And Tesla is paying for the privilege of that foothold.

The context was the barrier to entry in China. That was already implied? No other foreign auto maker was able to cut the same deal as Tesla in China.

>Toyota is firing up battery supply in Thailand.

Toyota/Lexus have zero plans for electrification in the near future. In fact, they have instead doubled down on Hydrogen with the Mirai.

[http://www.thedrive.com/news/22429/toyota-to-double-down- on-...](http://www.thedrive.com/news/22429/toyota-to-double-down-on-hydrogen- fuel-cell-vehicles-as-industry-goes-electric)

[https://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+d...](https://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+doubles+down+zero+emissions+heavy+duty+trucks.htm)

>Not to mention that Panasonic and Chinese suppliers are the real source of Tesla batteries.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Tesla is probably the only automaker (outside of china) that builds their own cells and battery packs in-house.

<comment><USER27> You're wrong about Toyota. They're just not in the habit of rushing to market with empty promises. [https://www.toyota- global.com/innovation/environmental_techn...](https://www.toyota- global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/electric_vehicle/)

The point about Panasonic is pretty self-evident: Tesla isn't going to win Asian markets if its upstream suppliers are all in Asia. They're effectively a middleman and they're paying for the right to be in-country. It's not hard to see them being squeezed out by local firms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Another thing is the pre 2017 car-pool stickers for electric cars are expiring in the bay area. The newer stickers have income caps of $150k (single filing) or $300k (joint filing). I wonder what the impact will be on Tesla? The first change helps them but the second hurts them.

<comment><USER30> Did they give any justification for the change? It makes absolutely no sense to me why you'd put an income cap on that - don't you wan to encourage EVERYONE to burn less fossil fuels, REGARDLESS of income?

<comment><USER31> What the GP posted is a bit misleading, you either get the rebate or the carpool lane stickers if you're over the cap but not both. It does suck but I think it's for the best. The hov lane in norcal is becoming relatively crowded lately since electric cars were a rarity before but not so much now.

<comment><USER32> They've been crowded _at least_ since the yellow sticker 'Prius' program of, what, 2007?

<comment><USER31> I wouldn't know. I'm part of the new blood that came to the bay area after that to ruin everything. :)

<comment><USER32> You got your stories wrong, the new blood is ruining Portland and Seattle, where they hate outsiders (as long as they carefully avoid having a racial component to this complaint).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What the ?#* do I do now? - <AUTHOR>

Lawyer by day, programmer by night. Attended Chicago's StarterLeague (Fall 2012) to learn to program. LOVED IT.
Decided to build a graphically intuitive web commenting system, having no clue how 'in over my head' I was.
Worked diligently this last year and, finally, a prototype:
http://188.8.131.52/
My problem? WHAT THE !?#*@ DO I DO NOW?!
My goal? To build a business of my own and find myself amongst a similarly-minded, avid group of programmers/entrepreneurs.
The issue of course is that what I've built is not really an MVP--it's more a concept. Yeah, it works, it's cool and close to what I originally visualized but still it's a concept.
So, do I move on to a more 'business-viable' project, being grateful for how much over the last year I've learned about Javascript, d3, programming in general, etc.
Or do I slog on and keep iterating on this?
Thoughts? <comment><USER2> Apart from some minor UI glitches, this is great (#1: when I move the mouse off an outlying comment, the whole tree vanishes. I should probably hang around until I get back within the core circumference).

On the other hand, it's sufficiently offbeat that it may not find my adoption for web operators to adopt.

Suggestion #1: make it into a browser extension that works with Reddit, HN etc. Downside: you probably won't make money.

Suggestion #2: make it a little prettier - bigger, smoother UI, color-on-black color scheme, make it work on HN, and then do a Show HN post that will make everyone ooh and aah a lot.

Suggestion #3: make it work on legal citations, build a proof of concept using the Supreme Court database ([http://scdb.wustl.edu/](http://scdb.wustl.edu/)), send links to Dean Katz at the CLS department of U. Mich, and then make Westlaw and Nexis duke it out for the rights while you rake in the $.

Feel free to email me.

<comment><USER2> Suggestion #4: Integrate it into a bug tracking tool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I suggest you keep iterating on it. There will always be bugs to fix and improvements to make. You've shown it on HN and got some feedback, so show it to other people. See if they can understand how to use it or if you need to add some cues to guide them how to use it. If users need to watch a video on how to use something I think that might indicate a UX problem.

The first thing I noticed was what anigbrowl mentioned about moving the mouse off the branch. The branch should stay open even if the mouse deviates a little bit.

You should pretty it up a bit. I didn't understand the color theme. Seems like there are different shades of green but they intensity of the colors aren't aligned to the scale. Also the pin icon looks out of place.

Good work I like the idea. Just don't give up on it.

</comment><comment><USER4> Get it out there and get people using it, then listen to their feedback. Personally, I found it a bit difficult to tell what the point of it is. It looks like an interesting "reddit analytics" tool, but it also looks like it would be very cumbersome and unintuitive for actual commenting.

</comment><comment><USER5> Nice work. Although I must say that "visually intuitive web commenting and discussion" is not correct, at least not for me. I was a bit puzzled when staring at your UI. The introduction video cleared things up.

For sure you learned a lot in UI design and implementation. That is worth a lot when building your next thing.

"My problem? WHAT THE !?#*@ DO I DO NOW?!"

No idea, but I like the idea of introducing a simplistic visualisation of popularity/impact factor/etc of a post or comment.

</comment><comment><USER6> Keep iterating on this. If you drop this for something else in a few months we're going to be right back to this point - you have a prototype, do you move forward or drop it?

</comment><comment><USER7> This may have good commercial potential with digital marketing agencies. I would present it to them, try and get feedback on how this would make marketing better for them. See if they can give you pointers as to what type of data they might be interested in getting from this. The application may turn out to be an intuitive marketing dashboard.

</comment><comment><USER8> I would iterate on this idea and start thinking about some new ones.

Catch up on this podcast StartUpsForTheRestOfUs.com they have some good advice for what to do next.

Google and read/listen to Patio11, Brennan Dunn, Nathan Barry, and Amy Hoy. All have good advice for the direction you want to go.

</comment><comment><USER9> The best commenting system is Disqus, and they're the best not because they have the best UI (the UI part is easy). It's because they already have a network/community and you can follow others and see their activity, get notifications when someone comments on your stuff, etc.

</comment><comment><USER10> Deciding whether to fish or cut bait in such situations is difficult. I would suggest it's not 'either or'. In other words, you may want to continue to iterate on the app while also working on other ideas.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Wow, was away from the computer for a bit, came back and now all these great thoughts. I'm very genuinely grateful--thank you!</comment>


Film Review and Lessons Learned from 'Startup.com' - <AUTHOR> http://www.socialbias.com/film-review-and-lessons-learned-from-startupcom/

<comment><USER2> And ironically the only one who actually made money out of this whole deal was the guy who jumped out of the ship at the early beginning...

<comment><AUTHOR> You're exactly right. They paid the third founder $700,000 to go away after their Series A. Smart, but I actually didn't respect him leaving his friends out to dry and forcing them into awkward conversations with their investors. I guess that lesson is make sure your founding team is committed before you dole out the stock certificates :).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> _Just on their ideas alone they were able to raise a Series A round of $18.4 Million from A-list venture capitalists. I was blown away by that fundraising process. With a couple of handouts and some smooth talk from an obviously intelligent CEO, they were able to raise all that money. No product. No prototype. No mockups. Just ideas._

</comment><comment><USER4> i love when the competition shows up to spec out the place and they make him put a GovWorks hat on.</comment>


Shuttle re-entry as seen from the ISS (jpeg) - <AUTHOR> http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/573236main_iss028e018218_full.jpg <comment><USER2> that's pretty awesome, by the truest definition of the word</comment>


Stephen Hawking: This will be the impact of automation and AI on jobs - <AUTHOR> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/stephen-hawking-this-will-be-the-impact-of-automation-and-ai-on-jobs?utm_content=buffer29c6d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer <comment><USER2> _" The internet and the platforms that it makes possible allow very small groups of individuals to make enormous profits while employing very few people._

The Internet also makes it cheaper and easier than at any time in history, for an individual (or small group) to start their own business and peddle their wares to billions of people around the globe. Etsy? Ebay? Fulfilled by Amazon? Etc? FedEx/UPS? Contract manufacturing? Not to mention 3D printing other low- cost prototyping and fabrication technologies. Or the ability to hire programmers, or a consultant with India's equivalent of an MBA from Wharton, for far less than it would cost in the US or Europe?

Yeah, the Internet has a dark side. But it unleashes _tremendous_ opportunity for individuals as well. I would posit that one of the largest problems is that too many people simply (aren't aware of | don't care about | are scared to embrace | don't know how | etc.) the potential that could be unleashed.

Now, the question to me is, how do we take the unemployed coal-mine worker from Charleston, WV and give him/her the knowledge and skills needed to truly take advantage of what the Internet can offer?</comment>


Automate Everything - the hacker way - <AUTHOR> http://tomblomfield.com/post/17092502705/automate-everything <comment><USER3> "I decided to roll my own in this case because I was interested in learning about email handling after watching this great railscast from Ryan Bates. And because paying $9 per month per user for something I could probably write myself in a couple of hours seemed silly."

I find myself having to fight against this instinct almost every day. There are a couple of problems with hacking for a couple of hours to save a few bucks a month.

Firstly, you now have an additional piece of software to maintain - you're committing yourself to an unknown quantity of future work.

Secondly, your software won't get any better without you actively improving it. The nice thing about software you pay someone else for is that it gets better over time.

It's a tough instinct to fight though. Building things is Fun. It's just that there are probably other things you should be building that are more important to your company.

<comment><AUTHOR> I know what you mean, and I'm torn. This project was built in about 4-5 hours on a Saturday, mainly as a chance to learn about mail handling. It's ugly as hell and there are no tests (!), so I don't know how well it will hold up as a long-term solution - I guess we'll see.

I just find the $9/month per employee a bit repugnant - if we grow to 10 people, we'll be paying over $1000 a year for a piece of software that parses subjects out of emails and stores attachments. Doesn't seem like a good deal.

<comment><USER4> As a rough guide, you might factor in another 8-10 hours, because, according to Fred Brooks, a proper programming "product" takes about x3 as long as a "program".

Taking a wider view, there's an appeal to "cloud components", where all _components_ are rented - including ones as simple/trivial as this. For this to work, it has to be cheap enough to be a no-brainer (esp for projects _made_ of such components). Say, 1/100 - pennies - e.g. 9 cents /m/e. In the long- term, you'll see free open source alternatives, and maybe even free hosting (cloud providers supply it free, to support their hosting of your actual app)... and maintained.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This kind of thinking is as useful to non-tech founders as it is dangerous to technical founders.

For the non-techs, it's important for them to get their heads around the possibility that they may be wasting large quantities of worker-days doing what could be automated with a bash script.

For the techs, just because you can doesn't mean you should. Deciding to automate something when there's a cheap SAAS offering is often a destructive thing, mainly because even developers are prone to underestimate complexity and maintenance costs, and to goldplate a solution that's already "good enough".

I'm not saying Don't Automate. I'm just suggesting to be very cautious about undertaking any automation initiative. The things to automate are the baggage which you will take on your journey, and as such, they should be directly related up your core product/service. Something like a mailing list handler is probably not, and typical of the kind of underestimation that can take place (what happens when you discover your homebrew mailing list is blocked by every big mail provider's spam filter?).

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree with you - I think most programmers have this mentality automatically, whereas the non-tech guys often don't. We're hiring for non-technical operations/customer-service/biz-dev roles a the moment and we find ourselves leaning towards people with a technical background.

I just don't know how much this "instinct to automate" can be taught.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'll also add that this is the real value behind learning at least one language REALLY well. For me it's Python, for this guy it's Ruby. That means the language, it's ecosystem of platforms, and the standard lib.

Might be important to mention in these days where a new significant language seems to break onto the scene every 8 months or so.

I submit that any working programmer ought to know (or be about the business of knowing) at least one language well enough that they can go from idea to working prototype without spending a ton of time reading documentation and wondering about the canonical way to do something. One language where you can automate stuff and solve small problems.

<comment><USER7> For me it's shell scripts. Yeah they aren't ultimately as flexible as something like python, but piping together grep, sed, awk, and other command- line utilities, and some simple control-flow capabilities (if/then, loops, case statements) you can do a lot quickly.

And you can always write a little piece in Python, if any of the standard utilities are quite what you need.

<comment><USER8> What about Ruby and Perl and their ability to shell out as easily as you do in a shell? (with backticks)

You have a real language available with (arguably) fewer weird things and warts to be aware of or remember, better string manipulations and lots of other advantages, but if you really just want to send something through `awk` or `bc` you can do that just as easily as you do in bash and capture the result in a Ruby or Perl variable.

Seems like a win-win situation. (Unless you have an exceptional circumstance with requirements about running anything but shell scripts or something like that.)

<comment><USER9> I write quite a few Ruby utilities (for myself) and this is what I do: use backticks to harness the power of shell utilities, but have Ruby glue to do more complex tasks with those tools.

For example, I recently wrote a quick Ruby script to test various parts of my internet connection (ping default gateway, test DNS resolution, etc) because I was bored and my internet connection was down. I used backticks to do things like grab a nameserver from /etc/resolv.conf and then ping the server, but I had the surrounding Ruby code doing things like parsing the output using regular expressions and doing some logic on the results.

Sure, I could have written the thing in pure bash, but Ruby has better text manipulation capabilities when it comes to things like parsing (in my opinion), and with the backticks, I still was able to harness the power of the shell anyways.

I'm not sure how portable such solutions are, but for a home-grown testing program written on a whim out of boredom, it was certainly enjoyable to have both the power of Ruby and the shell available.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is a perfect example of the old saying that a good programmer is a lazy programmer. Lazy programmers hate doing the same monotonous things over and over and will go to great lengths to avoid it!

This is a close cousin to what my grandfather used to call "working to get out of work" in other words spending a lot of mental effort to avoid manual labor. This usually involves fashioning a tool or device to move something that could have been moved more quickly with simple, but back-breaking manual labor.

I tend to do both of these things a lot!

<comment><USER11> Lazysmart people are good people.

People who are eager to get up in the morning and toil in the sweat of their brows are deeply suspect in my book.

I don't see much good coming out of that kind of attitude - when will they stop and ponder the inescapable nuances of life?

The world needs more lazy inventor types laying around daydreaming on lazyboys, not extra widget crankers milling around mindlessly in labyrinthine office hives.

IMNSHO, of course :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is how and, more importantly, why I learned to program. My office uses a horribly unintuitive centralized database from which employees 'pull reports' to prove to supervisors the work they've done.

One of the guys in the office was maintaining a monthly report that involved him burning 3 hours a week pulling and compiling reports into a needlessly complex Excel spreadsheet. I offered to help out, and wrote an Excel macro that did the job for him.

From there, I figured 'hell, why should _everyone_ have to spend time doing this?' So I downloaded a copy of VB and learned enough of it to turn the Excel macro into a simple deployable application that turned an absolute waste of manpower into an easy-to-use desktop app.

In hindsight, a native application wasn't the best way to do it. Our office has a strictly controlled internet/intranet policy, and the people maintaining the database are likely too busy doing just that — maintenance — to build a more robust data reporting system. That might be the beauty of learning on your own, you quickly gain insight into how things should and could work.

It wasn't his point, but simonw is right: building things IS fun. I got started and I haven't looked back.

<comment><USER13> Perfect is the enemy of good.

If innovation had to sit around and wait for the "best solution" or be overly concerned with how things "should" work, you'd be cooking your dinner by pounding it with a rock and we'd all be in awe of enterprise software architecture.

Innovation is about solving problems with the tools and resources that are available, and kudos to you for doing just that. If more people would be bothered (and, indeed, allowed) to learn a little programming, even in something like VB, the productivity of an average office worker would explode.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I posted this on the blog but I'll copy it here as well. Please forgive the shameless plug.

I think the OP is right in that wanting to automate repetitive tasks is inherent to humans. And the problems discussed in this post are exactly the kind my startup <http://loggur.com> aims to address. The goal is to let non- programmers automate and also to let programmers automate certain tasks (mainly data manipulation, analysis, triggers, and reports/notifications) in a fraction of the time it would take to otherwise hand-code it.

I should also mention that I am fully aware that what Loggur attempts to do is far from new, but I have yet to see an implementation that isn't a pain to work with. And it's designed with the current (and predicted future) state of things in mind and to be flexible enough to adapt to whatever the needs of the future may be.

</comment><comment><USER15> One thing that always surprises me is how many times companies reinvent the wheel and the need for it. In your post you mention an expenses system; something pretty much every company will have to implement. Since HMRC require this information you'd think they'd provide a tool that everyone could "plug into", giving them full visibility of the data they require in a standard format with little effort, and allowing businesses to also benefit by just downloading the relevant information from this service into their own systems for any internal needs. If all companies were using the same service this would also be one less thing for new employees to learn, since they'd be familiar with the expenses process from previous jobs.

On a persona note, I'm definitely in the automater category; on the few occasions when I've left a task unautomated because it was only supposed to be a one off it's come back to bite me repeatedly when month after month that same one off task pops up (admittedly after 2-3 repeats I then ignore the advise that it's a one off and automate anyway). These days if I can automate a task in slightly over the time it would take to perform that task, I automate by default. If there's a significant difference I weigh up the likelihood of repetition (by myself and/or others) against the extra time required to automate it.

<comment><USER16> With tasks I only perform occasionally, automation becomes my record of _how to do_ those tasks. I find this extremely valuable for complex tasks infrequently performed. Taking the time to write a script ensures that (1) I pay attention to what I'm doing, not just run into a snag->google->get the fix->forget (or never investigate!) what the hell the problem was; and (2) allows me to quickly check that my procedure is repeatable; and (3) gives me a step-by-step record of exactly what needs to be done, with no steps skipped (like when I take notes) because they're "obvious." What is obvious when you've been working a couple of hours to solve a problem is very different than what is obvious when you haven't done something in a couple of months.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> It's OT, but I've found that expense report submission requirements are often (either willfully, our just willfully not improved) difficult in order to reduce the rate at which they are submitted.

<comment><USER18> That's interesting. You'd think that would be irrational for the company as a whole, no? If your employees are paying for their own housing, meals, transportation, massages, etc., instead of the company taking those on as business expenses, then for every US$1000 the company saves on expenses, it has to pay its employees US$1300 or so in higher salaries to make up for it, with the other US$300 going to income tax, payroll tax, etc. What's wrong with my thinking, or is this really true?

<comment><USER17> Its just one of the dozens of sneaky ways that less than moral companies say they're paying employees competitive rates and then... don't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> ...polls our pop3 server once per minute... ...attachments are saved to Amazon S3... ...details are stored in Postgres...

This is the hacker way? Was it designed? It is not elegant. I think it was grown. It uses technologies which are cool and hip but also dependent on third party services.

POP3 is not a reliable delivery protocol for unique messages.

I'll leave it at that.

<comment><AUTHOR> The "hacker way" was a small nod to the recent Facebook filing - I don't it necessary implies any kind of elegant design.

Zuckerberg explains "hacking just means building something quickly... Hackers believe that something can always be better, and that nothing is ever complete. They just have to go fix it — often in the face of people who say it's impossible or are content with the status quo...Hackers try to build the best services over the long term by quickly releasing and learning from smaller iterations rather than trying to get everything right all at once."

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> The informality of the solution seems at odds with the BigCo expense reporting story told in the problem description: " _Presumably, hundreds of millions of people have to do this every month, costing millions hours of lost productivity. And in most companies, it's because a well-meaning HR or Finance person has said that It Must Be Done._ "

This email-based expense system hinged on specific keywords would be great for a small business, but if you're a multinational with lots of legal oversight...

<comment><USER21> >This email-based expense system hinged on specific keywords would be great for a small business, but if you're a multinational with lots of legal oversight

Its still not necessarily bad, such a system could be easily expanded to be an quick input method to a system that makes the beancounters and legal happy too. Say I snap a picture of a till receipt with my cellphone and send it off to the expense account. The backend could also hook into our timesheet webapp. I already have to choose the account I'm billing my hours to and some accounts require I put in a note. My expense could show up right in the list of hours I've clocked, then when I enter my hours at the end of the day I double check all the expenses are there, are for the right amount, choose the account to charge and pop in a description.

</comment></comment><comment> Tim-Boss Does anyone know if (in the UK at least) HMRC require companies to submit the actual receipts (physical bits of paper) or do scanned images suffice?

<comment><USER22> <http://blog.receipt-bank.com/?p=428> quote HMRC as saying

"Records may be preserved on optical imaging systems, and the originals discarded, provided that what is retained in digital form represents a complete and unaltered image of the underlying paper document."

giving the reference as [http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110720224136/htt...](http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110720224136/http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/bulletins/tb37.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> To my mind the meta-hack here would be to do away with the need for expense reporting entirely by giving everyone a corporate credit card like 37signals did. <http://37signals.com/svn/posts/893-workplace-experiments>

Your start-up might not be in a position to do that, but removing the task entirely always seems preferable to me.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm not a programmer, but I do like to automate and my favorite way at the moment is using macros, bash scripts and WinAutomation - I can't believe how much can be automated this way. Email replies, online searches, software updates, website testing, testing content for uniqueness, proof reading and renaming files, taking screenshots, adding tasks to the calendar - <USER2> can be automated using existing software and something to connect it all together (in my case, it's WinAutomation).

Obviously, it's not scalable, but anything that saves you an hour of sorting 500 files by category is a win in my book...

<comment><USER25> Sir, you are definitely a programmer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I write shell scripts to do just about everything. Good point about teaching these skills to non-programmers.

</comment><comment><USER27> I think a balance between automation & manual gives the best efficiences. Particularly in the rapid building pre production stage of a solution.

My context is data processing matlab (automation) & excel (manual).

</comment><comment><USER28> Interestingly, the Tibetan word for meditation (Gompa) means, literally, a repetitive mental task.

Thus far, we have machines that think for us in countless ways, none yet that meditate for us.

</comment><comment><USER29> Tom, you might be interested in <http://wappwolf.com/> :)

</comment><comment><USER30> The code would be fun to see if you have a moment.</comment>


Ask HN: Who Is Seeking Interns? (November 2010 Edition) - <AUTHOR>

Similar to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1855569<p>Please lead with the positions' locations. <comment><USER2> Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Work involves swimming and drowning at the software-hardware interface. Home of the smallest and fastest 32-bit multi-threaded embedded microprocessor core.

<http://www.aeste.my/internships>

</comment><comment><USER3> CommonPlace -- Cambridge, MA (<http://commonplaceusa.com>)

We're a nearly-funded startup creating a social platform for local communities and neighborhoods.

* Web Dev Intern: Will be working on a Ruby on Rails web app with some civic-minded Harvard students. Some programming experience nice, but not required. We will help you learn as needed.

Contact maxtilford at gmail

</comment><comment><USER4> Justin.tv, in SF. Design and Software Engineering.

I did a SE internship with them over the summer, currently continuing remotely to finish off college. You'll have a great time with some great people — and you'll do stuff thats interesting, not busywork. Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions.

<http://www.justin.tv/p/jobs#designintern> and <http://www.justin.tv/p/jobs#se_intern> for more info (and how to apply!)

</comment><comment><USER5> Seattle, WA - Adobe Systems (<http://www.adobe.com/>)

I work with the Services Infrastructure team here at Adobe and we're looking for interns! Check out my post for the opening here -> [http://blogs.adobe.com/charles/2010/11/wanted-computer- scien...](http://blogs.adobe.com/charles/2010/11/wanted-computer-scientist- summer-intern.html). Hope to hear from you!

</comment><comment><USER6> RentMineOnline, San Francisco (we're in the presidio).

We were in SeedCamp in '08, part of the FbFund '09 class, and we're currently profitable.

We would consider back-end (rails) or front-end (javascript/html/css) interns, with the possibility of a full-time job if you're good.

email kevin at rentmineonline

</comment><comment><USER7> Meebo -- <http://www.meebo.com/jobs/teams/internships/>

Located in Mountain View, CA and NYC, NY.

Looking for students with interest in JavaScript, Python and C.

<comment><USER8> Should I reference you in an application?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wistia, Somerville, MA

We're looking for great people to help us with operations, dev, and customer service.

<http://wistia.theresumator.com/apply>

</comment><comment><USER10> Informifi (<http://informifi.com>), San Francisco (16th and Harrison) We're looking for passionate web hackers and systems people.

email me : dan at informifi.com

</comment><comment><USER11> zferral - Metro Detroit (Remote) (<http://zferral.com>)

Looking for UI / UX and Design Interns.

Exceptional performance will lead to full-time job (+ equity)</comment>


Golden Gate Bridge officials seek emergency funding after traffic plummets 70% - <AUTHOR> https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/golden-gate-bridge-officials-seek-emergency-funding-after-traffic-plummets-70-percent/ <comment><USER2> what are they feeding this bridge?

<comment><USER3> Grinding out the rust - and paint - and the people to do that work.

<comment><USER2> ah yes lots of maintenance</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: BandHub - The Internet Recording Studio - <AUTHOR> http://getbandhub.com

<comment><USER2> I'm a musician/producer, just got to test this. I think it pretty much nails it for dead simple, fast and furious music collaboration. The interface makes it pleasant to lay down multiple tracks, working well both for people who have used DAWs before and for recording newbies, and while on ideation stage video beats just audio because you can immediately recall exactly how you played a given part (by looking at your fingers/mouth/etc).

I think this has a lot of potential, and one possible use case would be for bands to engage with their audiences directly, asking them to contribute parts to their new songs.

<comment> k-mcgrady >> "I think this has a lot of potential, and one possible use case would be for bands to engage with their audiences directly, asking them to contribute parts to their new songs."

I think that's something you'll get very strong opinions on. I personally couldn't imagine anything worse. I like the idea of bringing music creation more public (live streaming recording sessions/producing, releasing works in progress as you create something etc.) but actually crowdsourcing material doesn't make sense to me as a creator or a fan. What I mean is that when you create art a lot of the decisions you make are based on your emotions (e.g. if I'm sad I write a sad song about the thing making me sad). Bringing other people into that confuses things and as a listener I think I'd notice that in the song. I'm not saying the music created would be bad (popular songs nowadays tend to have a LOT of songwriters working on them) I'm just saying it feels wrong to me.

<comment><AUTHOR> that's interesting

after you make a first crack at your song wouldn't you like to have awesome session musicians play parts?

<comment> k-mcgrady I didn't think of it like that. I was thinking more from the perspective of having fans of your music actually contribute parts (i.e. lyrics, a verse, a bridge etc.). The session musician idea is an interesting use case and one that I like.

<comment><USER2> I think you have a valid point, but then the same could be argued for Wikipedia vs. Encyclopedia Britannica or pretty much anything else that's successfully crowdsourced online.

Of course the artist would have to curate at the end and only pick parts he loves and fits his vision for the song, I just know for a fact that there isn't an objectively "right" part for any song, so an amateur kid in a remote country might actually create a bass line that fits the artist's vision for a given song better than what a professional session player has come up with on that specific day the artist had to work with him. It won't _sound_ as good, obviously, but then the artist can re-record it properly. And the positive side effect is, of course, a lot of fan base engagement.

<comment> k-mcgrady I don't disagree with you. It really just depends on your personal opinion/definition of art. I don't think there is a 'right answer'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> BTW - if you install the app, you can open this song: [http://getbandhub.com/?s=524e26a8cc8d46e238000001](http://getbandhub.com/?s=524e26a8cc8d46e238000001)

And experience:

> Andrew Mason (Groupon co-founder) > Adrian Holovaty (inventor of Django web > framework) > me

All somewhat related in this song:

[http://getbandhub.com/?s=524e26a8cc8d46e238000001](http://getbandhub.com/?s=524e26a8cc8d46e238000001)

<comment><USER3> I've always felt like the world was missing a platform for remote musical collaboration. This is a huge pain point for electronic music producers without access to session musicians or complex recording setups for acoustic drums. As far as I know the only current solution is to buy generic sample packs (yuck) or put out an ad in craigslist and hope someone local responds. A micropayment platform on top of this would be huge. Think odesk for session musicians.

<comment><AUTHOR> Certainly. For now the micropayment amount is 0 and you can already find pretty decent musicians there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm a person that has spent lots of money on low-latency digital audio interfaces and know from experience that every millisecond counts. It seems like this type of technology always suffers from latency issues. How are latency issue overcome by BandHub?

<comment><AUTHOR> BandHub is not real time, but rather async. You lay down a track, then someone else lays down another and so on. You record on top of what's already been recorded. It's like a multitrack YouTube so to speak.

EDIT: new tracks show up after ~30 seconds of being recorded by other users. so you can use it for real time production

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This sounds awesome, please make a linux version. Or maybe use a format that wouldn't require a specific client for advanced users that already have a favorite client.

<comment><AUTHOR> That is interesting and opens the whole debate of whether it's best to let people integrate their tools vs having our own experience.

We'd love to find a way to let people use their tools - however, the type of UX that we are going after is 10x simpler than any DAW or recording software out there.

<comment><USER5> It seems like you're really creating two products, an editor and a collaboration platform. Imagine if Github forced you to do all coding with a custom IDE. That said, the simple UX sounds great, and I wouldn't even have brought it up if there was a Linux client.

<comment><USER6> > Imagine if Github forced you to do all coding with a custom IDE.

That's a great analogy. Github is a great model: I'd rather do as much as I could in-browser and then only the stuff that requires local access to be done from my tools of choice.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> So interesting to see start ups that help w this kind of remote collaboration. An interesting example of globalization. Now a band can be in Toronto, DC and Hong Kong at once. I wonder if the music will be more diverse and interesting

<comment><AUTHOR> I think there is a "long tail" tendency in all forms of art.

I.e., with YouTube/the internet you can now follow long-tail musicians that you love.

And it will be the same for creation and not just consumption - you should be able to find people to make music with that are truly compatible with your interests/style/taste. Today you are kind of forced to make music with people you meet in high school or whatever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This looks like really cool technology to bring people together. I wonder if it would be possible to make movies with too by shooting different scenes in different locations and putting the audio all together.

<comment><AUTHOR> you can use it to shoot video clips - so when you are filming, you hear the music - and it's easy to put all together nicely then ( 10x easier than using video editing software )

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Very cool, I had been trying to get together my old band from back in South America but we had not been able to find a way for us to get it done. Looks great, will give it a try this weekend.

</comment><comment><USER10> Typo on homepage:

"Contribute tracks to other people's songs. Open up _your_ songs for other people's contributions. Clone/version/remix existing songs."

<comment><AUTHOR> fixed, thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I am a guitar aficionado... this app would be great. Remote collaboration with high quality audio online can allow for interesting new music ideas to float.

</comment><comment><USER12> Each track of the song is recorded separately? It would be nice to change mix settings and replace people

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, each track is recorded async/separately. When you record, you do it on top of what's already been recorded.

You can change the mix, but only the original song "creator" can persist that change permanently.

If you want to create your own mix, you can copy the song into a new one that you control fully (mix, remove people, etc.). BTW you can do that with any song already there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I would have been all over this 2 years ago when my drummer lived 1200 miles away.

<comment><AUTHOR> isn't it still useful even if he lives close by? aren't there times when it's more convenient for you guys to each do your track at your own time / place ?

note I am not arguing against jamming side-by-side for real - which is awesome. i see it more as a complement

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Can I find other people there to make songs together?

<comment><AUTHOR> yes, you can browse "community songs" other people have posted and add your parts to them

or you can create a new song, record 1 or many tracks and select available musicians you'd like to record in it - or post it back to the community for anyone to chime in

the end result is an awesome YouTube music video

EDIT: here is an example of an end-result YouTube video: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUjxFWQSn9Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUjxFWQSn9Q)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> For recording audiobooks too, I presume?

<comment><AUTHOR> It is designed to record music, as it enable multiple tracks of both audio and video to be mixed together.

I guess you could be creative and use it for audiobooks where you have a few narrators that take turns :) -- but that would look more like a movie script reading...

jokes aside, it is designed to produce music mainly

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Looking forward to the PC version!

<comment><AUTHOR> We are working on it and will have it ready in a few weeks... Ping me privately (contact info in my profile) if you want to test our alpha PC builds

<comment><USER16> And by PC are we talking about Windows or Linux or both? I really hope you have a Linux version cooking.

edit: Didn't see the Windows logo besides the notification field. Guess my hopes still apply, even though they might seem slim at the moment. :/

<comment><AUTHOR> We are working on the Windows version. We haven't started working on a Linux version yet. But at some point we will start working on mobile versions too ( iPhone/iPad/Android )

I guess iPhone qualifies as Linux :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> looks really cool. how does this compare to blend.io or splice?

<comment><AUTHOR> BandHub is not like a github in the sense of sharing / versioning of plain files. it's an integrated product that makes it easy to produce music for both the hobbyist musician (think YouTube musicians) as well as the pro. it is an order of magnitude simpler than most digital audio workstations while retaining 90% of their power.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> why not support for real time jamming?

<comment><AUTHOR> As much as we'd love to support real time simultaneous recording or jamming, the latency in the internet makes it impossible (1)

We do support, however, real-time production. After you record a track, it becomes almost-instantaneously available to other people, so they can record their own on top, mix it, or whatever.

(1) To be extremely fair, you can achieve real-time jamming 1:1 if you buy super low-latency specialized audio interfaces and are connected with someone that doesn't live too far away in an area of the world where the internet infrastructure is awesome. So it could work intra-city in the US or some parts of Europe for example. But it would still be 1:1 and not really for "bands" in the broader sense.</comment></comment>


Complaints About the iPad's Lack of Flash Support May Fade - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/technology/01flash.html?em <comment><USER2> _"In addition, the patents surrounding HTML5 are owned by a group of companies; Apple is a part of that group."_

I did a double-take here. First I dismissed it as the usual journalistic misunderstanding, but is it really inaccurate?</comment>


Going "off-chain", how to make your Ethereum dapp scale and successful - <AUTHOR> https://www.lunchbadger.com/ethereum-microservice-apis-going-off-chain/ <comment><USER2> Great article. Looking forward to the workshop

</comment><comment><USER3> Nice to see the nod to Loopback

<comment><AUTHOR> LoopBack.io powers the Compose capabilities in LunchBadger. We're built entirely on open source! Super productive for API development - we just fill in the rest of the blanks in the lifecycle</comment></comment>