Japan Is Betting Big on the Future of Hydrogen Cars - <AUTHOR> https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=700877189 <comment><USER2> I've had the opportunity to drive a Hydrogen fuel cell car and here are a few quick takes:

* The carbon footprint is likely larger than a Tesla but smaller than a comparable gasoline vehicle.

* The cost of fuel is currently several times higher than gasoline (normalized for driving distance) which is why all the major hydrogen carmakers are giving away 3 years of fuel for free. This likely doesn't help the carbon footprint.

* It takes a little longer to refuel than a gasoline car (few minutes) but less time than an electric car.

* Range depends on environmental conditions and driving habits. As it is a hybrid, nonfreeway driving in stop/go traffic appears to be most efficient (this is where you get the 300+ mile range). Otherwise, in the freeway, in the mountains (uphill) and when the A/C or heater is on at full blast, be prepared to lose up to 30% of range.

* There aren't as many fuel stations yet so it is a good habit to check station status online and refuel before the tank gets too empty. Stations in the USA are currently open to the public in California and a few places in the Northeast.

* Some models have little trunk space as quite a bit of volume as been reallocated to the hydrogen tanks.

* Some jurisdictions may require periodic (~yearly) tank inspections.

* The vehicles generally handle like an electric (or hybrid in electric mode) vehicle.

</comment><comment><USER3> And where does the hydrogen come from? The h2o -> electrolysis -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> h2o round trip is only 50% efficient, and electrolysis is not even currently the most cost effective way of making hydrogen. The most cost- effective source is natural gas, and the process releases vast amounts of CO2.

<comment><USER4> Surplus power from renewables when supply exceeds demand. Haven't you seen all these stories about how renewables will hit a wall because there's not enough energy storage? Japan thinks that hydrogen is the solution for that.

<comment><USER5> Electric vehicles are the solution. When a country has roughly half as many cars as people you have a tremendous buffer. Combine this with a grid connection to another country that has peak demand at a different time of day from your own and a lot of the problem goes away.

A back of the envelope calculation might go something like this. Vehicles are idle 95% of the time on average, most countries have something like one vehicle for every two people, if all are electric and all have a 40 kWh battery (more than a original Leaf, a bit over half my Tesla S) that is on average 50% charged then in a country like Norway (roughly 5 million population) there is a storage buffer that can source or sink something like:

       (5e6/2) cars * (40 * 0.5) kWh capacity * 0.95

that is 47.5e6 kWh , also known as 47.5e3 MWh, or 47.5 GWh.

With real time pricing and the ability to deliver current from the car as well as to it and you have pretty much solved the problem.

The total installed generating capacity in Norway is just over 30 GW. If we harnessed just the batteries in the cars we already have we would have a buffer of something like

      200e3 cars times 20 kWhr * 0.5 battery capacity

that is about 2000 MWh, or 2 GWh. Something between one and two hours full power for the whole country.

I hope I haven't got a power of ten wrong in there.

<comment><USER6> I think your numbers are good. Brings up a point I've seen about the difference between renewable power systems and fossil fuel based ones. Apologists for the latter will often try and impose the same reliability standards on renewables as fossil fuel systems, the day storage requirement. Then they declare renewable economically unworkable.

The fallacy is fossil fuel systems are susceptible to supply disruptions. So they need to store 7 days worth of fuel to keep the thermal plants running. Less than that and they could potentially run out of fuel.

Renewable's never run low on fuel due to war, accidents, and hurricanes like oil and gas does. Capacity issues (dark and stormy) is solved by long distance interties not local storage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Elon has been very dismissive about hydrogen at least a couple of times saying that hydrogen is not a power source, that is horribly inefficient and fueling cars with it is blatantly stupid. He also added that this will become evident to everyone sometime in the future. I'm not educated enough to understand if his statements are true or he's just defending the battery model because Tesla went for it. I also can not figure out why - if hydrogen is so obviously a fail - such a company as Toyota is betting on it. Is anyone available to elaborate on that in order to help me to better understand Elon's dismissive position on hydrogen as a fueling technology for cars? Genuine question, and thank you to anyone willing to ELI 5.

<comment><USER7> Sorry I'm on my phone and can not edit my comment. That's an example of Elon's position on the matter:

[https://youtu.be/yFPnT-DCBVs](https://youtu.be/yFPnT-DCBVs)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Toyota and VW are the world's two biggest auto makers. VW is going strong on battery ev's, while Toyota is sticking with hydrogen. I think VW is going to clobber Toyota very badly in the coming years.

</comment><comment><USER9> What secret they understand that rest of us don't ? Is it cyclic efficiency ? Residual discharge loss ? Environmental cleanup cost ? Lithium sourcing ? Chance of future tech progress ? Charging time ? What ?

<comment><USER10> Toyota.

They spent decades researching hydrogen fuel cells and finally brought a car to market with the technology. Their Mirai is essentially a fuel-cell hybrid, where the ICE component has been replaced with a fuel-cell equivalent and the only waste product from the hydrogen fuel is water. All told it is actually pretty cool, and it is nice to see an alternative to pure electric battery- driven drive trains. Ripping up the crust for Lithium isn't much of an improvement over ripping it up for hydrocarbons, but it might be a century before we collectively agree.

"Mirai" by the way, means "future" in Japanese.

<comment><USER8> >Ripping up the crust for Lithium isn't much of an improvement over ripping it up for hydrocarbons

If everyone converted entirely to lithium-ion batteries, the crust would still be ripped up about one millionth as much it is at present for fossil fuels.

<comment><USER10> Not advocating against electric cars so much as _for_ research into more than _just_ electric cars.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Drive testing the hydrogen fuel cell Hyundai NEXO. Joshua Vergara... :

[https://youtu.be/8cNhROauWrM](https://youtu.be/8cNhROauWrM)

... And Michael Fisher; same road trip :

[https://youtu.be/euUiIjXA-zc](https://youtu.be/euUiIjXA-zc)

</comment><comment><USER11> i'm a bit dissapointed that the article didn't mention anything about range.</comment>


What to do when you don't trust your data anymore - <AUTHOR> https://laskowskilab.faculty.ucdavis.edu/2020/01/29/retractions/ <comment><USER2> I've had a similar case to this problem, not in research but with production data for a company. Decisions were made with wrong data and therefore, bad decisions. It's really an agony and hard to swallow. But the best thing to do is, as you did, face it and be honest with yourself and all the others and admit the error.

I think this is part of being a data scientist.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's amazing how common it is to see something that doesn't make sense in the data and instead of deciding to investigate, they just move on. I'm guilty too sometimes. But almost every time I dig, I find something that invalidates it. Maybe an ETL somewhere is putting an empty string instead of NULL in particular cases. Maybe my join is duplicating certain rows. Maybe you got a table (or spreadsheet) that doesn't make sense. It all violates the assumptions of an analysis, but collectively we just say "can't eliminate all bugs." I hope the future is better.

<comment><USER4> Some places, they do QA, and when they find something in a random sample, they fix that instance and continue, rather than looking for all the places it happened and why.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> > "Why Sheet 2 exists is an interesting question," was Jonathan's response and > he agreed that "it is well that the paper is being retracted" when I asked > him directly about this and that perfectly sums up my feelings as well. ... > While I'm not sure what Sheet 2 means or why it exists; I do know that the > data in this paper also suffer from inexplicable irregularities rendering > any results untrustworthy.

> Given the problems in my data sets, these folks are proactively > investigating data that they received from Jonathan ...

It's great that she is sticking solely to the facts and being very scientific. But I'd love to read a journalist's in-depth investigation into Johnathan's motivations. Everything points to this being a deliberate, dishonest fabrication of data.

</comment><comment><USER6> Some additional details about these and related retractions from Pruitt's work can be found here:

[https://retractionwatch.com/2020/01/29/authors- questioning-p...](https://retractionwatch.com/2020/01/29/authors-questioning- papers-at-nearly-two-dozen-journals-in-wake-of-spider-paper- retraction/#more-118826)

</comment><comment><USER7> Glad she came clean, and glad the retractions are coming in.

And now she has a tenure track position at a UC.

While the scientific record might be corrected, the historic impact on a cohort of people who got less because of this remains unacknowledged and uncorrected.

Walk it _all_ back.

<comment><USER8> Did you read the article? Sounds like she didn't do anything wrong, but was sent falsified data by a more senior scientist that she trusted. After discovering that, she took steps to correct the record, alert other scientists that they need to double check their papers, and build automated tools to catch similar issues going forward. That sounds appropriate, and high in integrity, why should she be punished for doing the right thing?

<comment><USER9> That sounds reasonable as far as it goes, but if you were the person next in line for that UC Davis position and your research wasn't based on falsified data, I think you'd be feeling pretty unhappy about this.

(I hope that in reality there's a lot more to the author's research than the retracted papers, but of course in such a competitive job market, every bit helps.)

Look at it another way: the author sure was lucky they found out about the problem after they were securely in their tenure-track position, and not just before.

<comment><USER10> > Look at it another way: the author sure was lucky they found out about the > problem after they were securely in their tenure-track position, and not > just before.

Look at it another way: The author was sure unlucky to have based their research on shoddy data from a trusted colleague. And it took guts and integrity to react in the way they did.

<comment><USER9> That is also true.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The dark side of entrepreneurship - <AUTHOR> https://www.shopify.com/enterprise/the-dark-side-of-entrepreneurship-that-nobody-wants-to-talk-about <comment><USER2> The best thing I took away from this article was the concept of a "digital sabbath". I should start doing this. Right now I spent practically all of my working and free time on my computer or phone.

<comment><USER3> Sometimes I'll go for a long walk for an hour or two, where I leave my phone at home. You might be surprised how many times you reach in your pocket to check something you're not even carrying, even in just that short amount of time. Call it a micro digital sabbath if you will.

A related book that's interesting is _Hamlet 's Blackberry: Building a Good Life in the Digital Age_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Funny how these points are made - it also trickles down to employees, since if their managers/executives are working hard, so should they. Some managers/executives even use it as an excuse to drive their employees to work that hard, and create adverse effects for all.

Good leadership includes setting the example, and what is good for you is also good for everyone you employ (for the most part).

</comment><comment><USER5> Business leaders aren't immune from the same burnout dynamics that inflict other intellectual work. It can be spread out among more kinds of tasks, but a lot of problems are best solved with "fast is smooth, smooth is slow" as the starting point.

</comment><comment><USER6> I always think it is interesting which posts end up in the first page with no comments.

Me, I don't have a comment yet, because I am on the train going out to take a break of entrepreneurial stress—so this article hit a little too close to home to finish reading now ;)

<comment><USER3> I think some posts don't naturally start a discussion.

While this post itself felt luck a catch-all bucket on founder stress, which is not necessarily a bad thing, I feel like most feel the desire to support improving mental health in the tech community, especially in startups and for founders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Was anyone else offput that a piece about depression is content marketing?

<comment><USER8> Well ... apart from amateurs and academics with disinterested sharing (which may also boost their reputation), most everything else is an advertising sandwich of some sort.

Some more tasteful than others. Yesterday I rabbit-holed after a reference to the obscure "Star 80" movie, and saw several mentions of how the lead actor deserved an Oscar nomination which he did not get because his character was distasteful.

So it goes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It is stressful. But handling the stress effectively is a big part of the job and is a defining characteristic of success in such endeavors. Gotta know what you're signing up for, so it's good articles like this highlight it.</comment>


Forget far-right populism – crypto-anarchists are the new masters - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/04/forget-far-right-populism-crypto-anarchists-are-the-new-masters-internet-politics#ampshare=https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/04/forget-far-right-populism-crypto-anarchists-are-the-new-masters-internet-politics <comment><USER2> I think anarchy is something that tries to interject itself into any system. For the moment it's the Internet and distributed networks. Tomorrow it might be something else, but for now is still a little in the realm of conspriacy.</comment>


Keybase, Zoom and Me – I'm not deleting Keybase - <AUTHOR> https://kevq.uk/keybase-zoom-and-me/ <comment><USER2> > There's nothing on my Keybase profile that is sensitive or private (except > my private key, but like I said, that's not a big deal)

That's a strange statement, I wouldn't expect others to feel that way. Key material is generally considered sensitive. And they don't actually explain why they don't think their private key is sensitive (or I'm not seeing it).</comment>


Ask: Will coding ever be made redundant? - <AUTHOR> Some friends of mine (mechanical engineers) once asked me (software engineer) if I was worried about my career in the software industry, as they were certain that apps are just made in drag and drop editors and people didn't need to code any more... Thus programming was becoming redundant.
This seemed ridiculous at the time (still does) but I sometimes wonder if code will ever be made obsolete? what could replace it?
After looking at countless graphical implementations of programs and dealing with the frustration of GUI builders, I just can't see CODE ever going away. To me code is the essence of automation, the logic and brains of a system. It would appear you could replace everything else but that... <comment><USER2> The idea of drag-and-drop editors replacing code is laughable as far as I'm concerned. We might eventually see compilers evolve to the point where a specification written in natural language can be translated into a program automatically, but as the old joke goes at that point writing a sufficiently detailed specification _is_ the programming.

</comment><comment><USER3> This reduces to the question of: will technical innovation slow down?

Hand-crafted code, composed by thoughtful experts, is a really useful tool when _exploring_ new technologies or when _adapting_ technologies to new industries.

But as when a technology-industry fit matures, and innovation slows down, you can start working in larger grains that require less crafting and less expertise. The problem domains are understood, the tools are stable, and there's an affordance for inefficiencies. People with industry expertise and vaguely literate in programming concepts can build the tools they need without the intervention of a professional engineer.

This maturation process has already happened a thousand times in various industries, and sometimes we see it disrupted by new innovation.

If there continues to be widespread innovation and disruption, we'll still need lots and lots of professional programmers writing code.

If, instead, industry problems can genuinely be optimized or technical innovation can encounter practical limits, professional coding will narrow to smaller and smaller niches.

We're probably still a long way from the latter scenario. I'd say your career as a software engineer is safe. Your daughter's? Harder to say.

</comment><comment><USER4> Yes and no.

No, we'll never see a complete replacement for coding. Unless we get literally god like AI that can code by magic, it's simply not possible to replace all programmers/developers/coders with a tool that lets people do the same thing with a drag and drop or WYSIWYG interface. It's simply too complicated for that, and the more ambitious edge cases simply can't be built like that.

At the same time however, a lot of people's needs are also quite modest, and a fairly simple system that could do a few things well could replace many of those needs. Look at the CMS market for example. For many sites and web apps, something like WordPress or Drupal can indeed be used to build them with minimal coding experience, just by adding in a few plugins and a custom theme. Same goes with online services like Shopify or Squarespace or what not. For many simple use cases, that's enough.

Another good example would probably be the Super Mario World tool 'Blockreator'. It's basically a GUI for building simple interactive elements for the game, which lets you drag and drop commands like 'if condition X do Y' as well as 'set whatever variable to this value' (like the timer, power up, coin count, etc). It's not gonna do everything a power user wants, but for many people who just want a few extras in game, it's a time saver.

So the answer is yes and no. Yes at the low end you'll likely see more and more services/tools/whatever crop up that make hand coding less necessary than it was in the past, and many individuals and small businesses won't need anything more complex than that.

But coding will always exist in some form, since the high end requires bespoke stuff that can't easily be done through some fancy tool or service.

</comment><comment><USER5> Code is just instructions, so ... yeah humans can totally be replaced with something more efficient & better... but what does 'better' really mean? is the output lower latency? higher concurrency? did it do something amazing with little resources?

I've only been in the industry 20yr, but I've met a wide range of people with different goals that drive many factors of many outcomes; as long as people are in the picture stuff is going to be inefficient from 1 pov, while at the same time human diversity can be a huge pool of talent/skill/creativity that a code generator can't have by design (it's solving for efficiency).

It would be a mistake to think things are never going to change. I think it's more reasonable to plan for change and try to keep a head of it by being relevant in a field that interests you, and has demand.

</comment><comment><USER6> Some aspects of coding as we think of it today probably will be made redundant and in fact have continuously been for quite some time now.

Higher-level programming languages, abstractions, libraries, IDEs: These are all tools that automated one or several aspects of coding

However, short of an AGI some tasks will still require a human being, particularly the translation of business requirements into code. Humans get this wrong frequently enough due to communication failures. I don't see how a machine without at least human-level intelligence could perform better at this.

</comment><comment><USER7> Consider website builders. Have they made web developers redundant? Generally, website builders suck. They do not allow for the customisation and flexibility required. Static site generators, such as Jekyll, are pretty good for their limited scope, but tools such as Webs generally remain bad for any purpose.

I don't believe some kind of drag + drop editor will replace programming. Even if some kind of editor could, additionally, design underlying functionality and design well, programming also involves a certain style of thinking. Mathematical thinking, for example, is not only applicable in research mathematics. I don't think "business people" could design apps better than us, even if such a tool exists. Indeed, the converse has been true, however (software engineers have indeed managed to replace, to some extent, business people). Startups have thrived on the idea of not monetising early, I think that's something missing in traditional business.

I don't see software engineers being replaced by drag+drop editors, or the typical users of such editors, ever. Conversely, I believe software engineering is one of the most secure job fields there is (some others being mathematicians, scientists, journalists, etc.) - though I may have a bias in this respect.

What may be true, however, is software engineers being replaced, to some extent for some tasks, by their own creations. Although it may be an interesting discussion, it usually follows a lot of hypothesis and any evidence-based discussion on that matter tends to be moot.

</comment><comment><USER8> Coding is a means of getting something done. They are just set of instructions that computers can process. So technically, there is an argument to be made that tomorrow we could have a new way of creating instructions for computers and not through human coding? Who knows. Just like when cars replaced horses, it did not change the fact that people still need to travel. Just the "how they travel" part changed.

<comment><USER7> Indeed, we could see industries change. Technology itself has changed many others intensively, who's to say it itself cannot be changed.

Though, unless we can create some self-refining process to create software automatically, some group of people must be creating it. Unless another group, other than software engineers, would be better and more able to apply their current skills to whatever coding becomes in the future, it is more likely that it will simply just be software engineers refining the way they work, rather than being replaced by a different group of professionals.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> A friend told me a story from the early 80s. He had double majored in CS and Accounting. He was interviewing and the guy told him programming was doomed. EVERY thing he needed he could do with this new fancy spreadsheet. LOL

When I went to school I had to learn assembly language. Even then C was a good replacement for it, but I still see jobs for people who can program assembly. WTF...

</comment><comment><USER10> Act of software engineering overall probably no, aspects of it yes.

Just like how industrial jobs are increasingly becoming "human manages machines doing labor" rather than "human does labor", I imagine the same will happen to coding. A computer won't be able to write all your code for you, but it will become more efficient to work in conjunction with one.

That's already happening with lots of existing tasks related to software engineering. (Searching through code, linting, etc.) ML will mean there will be more of them.

</comment><comment><USER11> Yes, some parts of coding will be made redundant. It's already happening partially with APIs, everything doesn't have to be built in house anymore.

</comment><comment><USER12> Dystopian, self-programming molochs making everything but themselves redundant? Enter deep reinforcement learning 2030.</comment>


Jack Ma's Australian connection - <AUTHOR> http://www.afr.com/leadership/innovation/alibaba-billionaire-founder-jack-ma-gives-26m-to-university-of-newcastle-in-memory-of-australian-mentor-20170202-gu4fg3 <comment><AUTHOR> I changed the title because I found the connection over 30 years ago more extraordinary than the donation itself. I chose this particular link to submit mostly because of the nice old photos. Here are some more links on the story:

[http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4444710/an- extraordinary-g...](http://www.theherald.com.au/story/4444710/an- extraordinary-gift/)

[http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher- education/milliondoll...](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher- education/milliondollar-thanks-from-childhood-mate-and-alibaba-founder-jack- ma/news-story/1ab35760aef1f76c3778bd318107efd0)

[https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured- news/remarkab...](https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured- news/remarkable-friendship-honoured-with-ma-morley-scholarship-program)

I tried and failed to find the English transcript of his speech at Newcastle.</comment>


Operate on this mother so that we can take her baby - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/10485281/Operate-on-this-mother-so-that-we-can-take-her-baby.html

<comment><USER2> Reads like a synopsis of a over the top drama. Except that it is real and even more ridiculous.</comment>


Why are we really in lockdown? - <AUTHOR> http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/04/15/1586943153000/Why-are-we-really-in-lockdown--/ <comment><USER2> This article looks like it's part of the genre of "act like an authority on fact while giving a slanted view of reality that confirms my own opinions" literature that seems more and more popular nowadays.

Just because you think you're including a "liberal point of view" (the author leans right) doesn't mean both sides are really covered. Especially when you call that point of view "a scaremongering campaign from a biased "liberal" media" as the author does. Or... sorry, he says that "others" are calling it that. Which I guess means he can wash his hands of that politically charged statement.

I have to wonder if authors like this are actually trying to deceive their audience or if they genuinely believe that "the other side" follows the arguments they lay out. It feels like the author's version of democrats is what my crazy uncle would say they are and his only interaction with liberal ideas are from people making fun of them on his facebook feed.

Edit: I don't want this comment to come off as too angry, but I've been seeing more and more of this brand of "intellectualism" and it's been making me frustrated. I just wish that people would fairly represent their opponent and not pretend that their version of what's going on is unbiased.

</comment><comment><USER3> Their core argument seems to be that we should place less value on those dying from Coronavirus, because most of them "would soon have died anyway" \- and more value on the percieved economic risk of the lockdowns, because this somehow represents "the people we can see dying in front of us".

Hence easing the lockdown, focusing on the economy and just letting the virus take its course whould naturally be the more "humane" solution...

Seems like a classic right-wing trolley-problem exercise which is really a thinly-veiled excuse to lobby for social darwinism.

<comment><USER4> I didn't perceive it to be an argument for anything specific. I did not get the sense the author is suggesting either lifting restrictions or not. I saw it as more of a piece trying to get us all to think harder and better and expose the difficult trade-offs and the conundrum we face as humans of the morality vs utility argument of saving someone hurting in front of us at any cost versus saving more people at a lower cost potentially at the risk of _not_ saving the person in front of us. I appreciated the author's parable of the river.

My own thoughts go in the direction of maybe the _right_ thing to do is different at different "scales". The _right_ thing to do in my family is different than the _right_ thing to do in my job which is probably different than the _right_ thing to do at the city level, the county level, the state level, the nation level, and the world level (to use labels appropriate for the USA). Leaders at each level have a different decision to make and things work better the more people we have making "good" decisions at each level. The process of figuring out what "good" decisions at each level is the really hard part that is not easily wrapped up with platitudes, memes, or other projections into a single one-dimensional axis (i.e. left vs. right) of a high-dimensional, multi-attribute space.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> [https://archive.md/Cf6W9](https://archive.md/Cf6W9)</comment>


Sanos Operating System Kernel - <AUTHOR> http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/index.htm Sanos is a minimalistic 32-bit x86 operating system kernel for network server appliances running on standard PC hardware. The kernel implements basic operating system services like booting, memory management, thread scheduling, local and remote file systems, TCP/IP networking and DLL loading and linking. You can use Sanos as a small kernel for embedded server applications written in C or as a JeOS (Just enough Operating System). Sanos has a fairly standard POSIX based API and an ANSI Standard C library.
The kernel was developed as part of an experiment on investigating the feasibility of running java server applications without a traditional operating system only using a simple kernel. A win32 layer allowed the Windows version of a standard HotSpot JVM to run under Sanos, essentially providing a JavaOS platform for server applications.
While Sanos is self-contained in the sense that it can build itself, it can be cross-compiled under either Windows using Microsoft Visual C, or under Linux using GCC. Sanos applications can either be built under Windows using MSVC or under Sanos itself using the Sanos SDK.
WWW: http://www.jbox.dk/sanos/index.htm Source: https://github.com/ringgaard/sanos <comment><USER2> [quote] Last, I need to address a controversial question: Was it a good idea implementing my own operating system? Short answer: Probably not! While I managed to prove my initial hypothesis that complex operating systems are not needed to run Java server applications, I could probably have done this without having to implement my own operating system. From a practical point of view, I could just have made a bare bone Linux installation, which is what I would recommend to most people who want to try this, and this is what we are doing where I work now. On the other hand, it was a lot of fun making Sanos, and I learned a lot doing it, also many things that are useful even if your job is not implementing operating systems. [/quote] And it hasn't had a update since Mar 8, 2012? Or is it continuing on Github?

</comment><comment><USER3> Thanks for the awesome work! If the purpose is to run specific apps with minimal OS, can buildroot or some container-based approach achieve the same goal?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm just the messenger, I like the project too. >>container-based Just create a boot image. Qemu works out of the box.

On the Homepage exist Emails exchangedwith the creator. It was a brian fart to move on to a exokernel 5 years ago.

Exokernel are on Ring 0. For any hardware virtualization, this is the perfect optimization in large cloud installations. Exokernel are easy to manage from ring -1 VM software. And can boot in < 100 ms.

So a application node can be add to cloud setup or reboot after a crash. Btw the author is working at a big search engine since over 10 year.

<comment><USER4> Alternatively, unikernels like Erlang on Xen.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I find this a very good idea, but since the latest news update was 2012, how has Sanos kept up with security vulnerabilities?</comment>


Mozilla, Google, and Opera announce support for built-in 3D graphics - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2009/08/04/browser-makers-announce-support-for-built-in-3d-graphics/

<comment><USER2> Something that might not be obvious is that, since shaders will be supported, this will also enable GPGPU from Javascript. If JIT-compiled Javascript is still too slow for you, you'll now have the option of running your code on the massively parallel vector co-processor that's in nearly every modern PC. The obvious next step in this direction is OpenCL.

WebKit has been implementing a different approach, doing 3D effects via CSS. I think both approaches to 3D are useful in different contexts and they should both be implemented.

<http://webkit.org/blog/386/3d-transforms/>

</comment><comment><USER3> I think that the omission of Microsoft is rather deliberate; this is the next phase of the browser wars. Hopefully there's enough of an installed base of sites that work with WebGL that when Microsoft launches it's catchup version it's as much of an epic flop as WindowsME.

Or Microsoft could get on board and not attempt to piss in the pool yet again; stranger things have happened.

<comment><USER4> Actually, I don't think Microsoft cares that much about their browser. It's not like it makes them any money. It was a selling point for their OS. Now there are plenty of alternative selling points.

<comment><USER5> IE Absolutely makes billions for microsoft....

What does IE mean?

1) Your clients need windows to run it.

2) Your developers need windows to test it.

3) They can plug in some of their technologies like .Net which runs on windows servers.

4) Clients that are used to IE (dumb users) will use it at home too because its "their browser".

5) Windows also means MS Office usually (though a separate issue).

So yea how is that not their core business model?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't see why having 3d stuff in a browser as a plug-in is a problem. It wasn't a problem for Java Applets (Java is installed on almost every computer I've ever run across), same deal for Flash.

<comment><USER4> Probably to gain that 10 seconds worth of load-time, which is enough time for people to close your site many, many times.

It's a tragedy really. I _stopped_ using Cybertown over 10 years ago. A 3D virtual community accessed in your browser using a VRML plug-in. Today we apparently get excited if our browsers display floating circles.

<comment><USER6> We're turning retarded obviously. As we age on the Internet, our brains turn to mush because of all the lolcats and other stuff that creeps out of 4chan and into our eyes. Thus we are more accepting of browser "improvements" when even an Amiga can do better!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Maybe people will stop using gaming as an excuse to run Windows. Yeah, I know, they won't, but still, one can dream.

</comment><comment><USER8> If Google is adding it to Chrome, I would expect it to end up in Webkit before long.

</comment><comment><USER9> i dont get this 3d in browser thing. apart from games what is the killer application? putting every possible tech into browser is just plain BS.

they make browser heavy and heavy in each major release thats why I returned to FF3 and i am not alone.

p.s: in future we would have browser containing drivers and bios. the ultimate BrowSer.

<comment><USER10> Putting every single thing in the browser is exactly what Google wants to do with its future (if ever released) Google Chrome OS.

From a business point of view, this way of doing things is probably seen as a good way to prevent software piracy: keep lots of things on the server side...

<comment><USER6> It's a good way to prevent you from using the _personal_ computer to its fullest potential.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> venturebeat takes forever to load, I wonder how long 3d pages will take to load...

<comment><USER6> For-fucking-ever, and I just can't wait till marketing people force ugly 3d advertisements on us...</comment></comment>


Simplistic heat-maps using Vecto - <AUTHOR> http://ryepup.unwashedmeme.com/blog/2009/12/30/simplistic-heat-maps-using-vecto/ <comment><USER2> Vecto being <http://www.xach.com/lisp/vecto/> which is used to do <http://wigflip.com/easystreet/> and <http://www.xach.com/moviecharts/> (Avatar is doing well!). And Zach also does <http://wigflip.com/>, all with SBCL.

</comment><comment><USER3> What about rendering heat-maps client-side using transparent canvas? Projects like this one and gheat (<http://code.google.com/p/gheat/>) are great, but running tile-servers is a bit of a hassle...</comment>


Failed Windows 3.1 system blamed for shutting down Paris airport - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/11/failed-windows-3-1-system-blamed-for-taking-out-paris-airport/ <comment><USER2> Prior HN coverage, in reverse chrono:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10581424](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10581424)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10577731](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10577731)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563884)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10560951](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10560951)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10559687](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10559687)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10547949](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10547949)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10624246](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10624246)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10581424](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10581424)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10577731](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10577731)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10563884)</comment>


Craving cannabis: is marijuana addictive? - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/28/marijuana-addictive <comment><USER2> I'm totally open to the premise but this article is conspicuously absent of anything even remotely resembling facts or studies.

There is an appeal to authority with the public health official.

And the idea the for profit marijuana industry might push towards addiction seems like a very plausible premise although the article states there hasn't been much of an increase in younger smokers.

It's important we consider the risks that marijuana use presents for adolescents and heavy users.

It did mention withdrawal symptoms such as anxiety and the reduction of earnings over time. It's possible these were based on studies, seems like the latter must be.

</comment><comment><USER3> Sure it's addictive, like most habits that provide a dopamine hit. More people struggle with disconnecting from social media addiction, the desire to keep finding an interesting image or comment is way worse of addiction. Also sugar and simple carbs, try and give that up for 2 weeks and notice the strong withdrawal symptoms.

<comment><USER4> I have long said that sugar is much more addictive that cannabis. Do you think that's true?

<comment><USER5> Having kicked both, sugar is definitely a physical withdrawal and weed more of a psychological withdrawal. Hard for me to say which was worse though.</comment></comment></comment>


Granfalloon technique - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon#Granfalloon_technique <comment><USER3> I'm reminded of the experiments where camp kids were randomly given blue and red shirts, and it took them less than an hour to form in-group/out-group dynamics and tribal loyalty based on shirts alone.

The thing is, from a game-theoretic standpoint, tribal loyalty is a Schelling focus [0]: your calculation about what alliance(s) to invest in, are inherently influenced by your calculations of the calculations of others. What defines the tribal boundary can be utterly non-sensical (from the objective viewpoint of a proverbial Martian), yet still be a rational choice from the perspective of each individual participant.

I'm also reminded of the Netflix b-movie "Circle" [1]: a group of fifty people are forced to vote every two minutes on which of them will be killed (if they refuse, someone is killed at random). At first, they decide to buy time to think, by starting with older people who are closer to the grave; but the older crowd bands together in self-defense, creating a two-party system of old-vs-young. As the headcount shrinks, new rifts and coalitions emerge; some organic, some arbitrary. It's a brilliant thought experiment despite being _terrible_ as a film. :)

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_\(game_theory\))

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_(2015_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_\(2015_film\))

<comment><USER4> I am not sure I believe in the implicit premise. Why would, in effect, everyone vote to avoid the randomness? That isn't the way society works in practice, is it?

<comment><USER3> I think the idea is similar to statistical sampling, or Nielsen ratings: to have a branch of government which is, on average, mathematically representative of the public, in a way that no electoral process could ever hope to accomplish.

The specific proposal I would make for the US is what I call the People's Congress, replacing the House of Representatives, leaving the Senate and executive roles as-is (other than unrelated electoral reforms like RCV).

As a check against abuse of power, or nominating someone unfit, every randomly-selected candidate can be voted out, albeit requiring a very high margin (maybe 66%: "the People's Veto"). Note that this position would be a mandatory form of public service, not unlike jury duty. Terms would be two years, and representatives would cycle in and out on a regular, rolling basis.

A realistic proposal? Not even slightly. In the current climate we can barely get basics like mail-in voting right. (Maybe it's something that be done as proof-of-concept at the scale of an eccentric municipality?) Nonetheless: my hunch is that having a branch of government, possibly even the entire legislative body, being statistically comprised of We The People in a way that is _impossible_ to game, would generally be less corrupt, and more responsive to the needs and preferences of constituents.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This phenomenon is root of all evil in modern day America.

People identify with political parties as though they are sports teams. Team R or Team D.

If you're one of such people (and there seem to be relatively few of them on HN), please consider where this will lead the country.

<comment><USER6> No, it is a beautiful and powerful thing. Everyone claims to not obey it but the force of tribalism is strong. There is no enlightened man above it. All are subject to it.

The best use it well. The average deny it. The worst are used well by it.

In its simplest form it lifts you up on a dreary Thursday as you get off the train, walk to the stadium gates, and yell a chant that is picked up by others who know nothing of you but that you know the chant and that you wear the colours. Such power in that unity.

In its most powerful form it motivates people to form great civil change. You are a civil rights activist, not merely a person who believes in the inherent rights of all people. You are a gay rights activist, or a climate change activist, or a revolutionary.

Learning to harness that mindhack of unity was so fulfilling to me. Yell the right words and you have sixty thousand at your back yelling them with you. You feel gigantic, not like a single man, but like a giant ocean swell. And it is such a trick. I do not share that much with the coal miner and the bus driver and the man who bought a flat in Highbury. But we share this. And over this we can talk. And through the talking we come to share more.

<comment><USER5> < Everyone claims to not obey it but the force of tribalism is strong. There is no enlightened man above it.

Oh, I think that as a American who disdains both major political parties, I can claim that honor.

> The best use it well.

Sure, modern politicians are great at that.

> The worst are used well by it.

Yep. Sounds about right.

By the way, it's going to destroy your country, too. Surprised that's not obvious. Civil wars suck, I've worked in the aftermath of two. Likely will not go that far in the UK, likely just a breakup and some civil unrest, but there is that risk with any breakup. In the US, I'd say there's a much higher chance.

> You feel gigantic, not like a single man, but like a giant ocean swell.

It's always amazing to me how different individuals can be. The idea of gaining power and feeling great because I'm shouting with thousands of other people gives me the willies. Sure, protests are necessary, but it's not a feeling we should relish. It means our government is failing.

And more often, when large groups of people gather to express emotion, it's for far more malevolent ends.

<comment><USER6> Oh, I knew the UK was doomed when triple-lock pensions were made real. I live in America! I think the most common reason large groups of people gather to express emotion is sports. And it is so joyful. And it's a nice substitute for war[0]

0: [https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell- foundation/orwel...](https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell- foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/the-sporting-spirit/)

<comment><USER5> Ah, you had me going until you referred to the Orwell essay.

Poe's Law strikes again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The idea of the granfaloon sounds like Benedict Anderson's concept of 'imagined communities': [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_community](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_community)

</comment><comment><USER8> I think Ad Hominems are sometimes a trivial instance of this. The idea being that you have said this or that which apparently contradicts what you've just said and, basically, _you wouldn 't want to disagree with yourself, do you?_ (the Granfalloon). Which is infuriating on multiple levels. One is that the person sometimes shifts from asking a question (but then why did you say...?) to an accusation (but you've said...!), as if they knew your thoughts better than you. But the other is that, sometimes, _I do actually change my mind_ and, as a matter of fact, I don't judge others for doing so.

The other instance would be those debates where the only bipartisan position is that that non-partisanship is not an option. As if people couldn't find both sides _stupid_ and think if either side got their way, they would get us all killed, because they're idiots.

</comment><comment><USER9> My granfalloon is anyone who knows the meaning of granfalloon.

<comment><USER3> I love these sorts of "conceptual onomatopoeias" :)

\- "word"

\- every Audible book begins with: "this is audible"

\- "shibboleth" works perfectly well as a shibboleth

<comment><USER10> The tent you are looking for is "self-referential".

Is the word "non-self-referential"

self-referential?

Is it non-self-referential?

> shibboleth" works perfectly well as a shibboleth

You know why that is, right? The concept is named after the use of the word.

<comment><USER3> The category I'm thinking of is a subset of self-referential; a concept which is encapsulated in its expression, where it is an example of itself: "This is a sentence" or "is sentence fragment" or `<html>`. It's an admittedly fuzzy/arbitrary category that I made up. :)

> Is it non-self-referential?

Haha, nice. I also like "non-descript".

> The concept is named after the use of the word.

Cool, TIL :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Hoosiers! ([https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3789074-hazel-obsession- wit...](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/3789074-hazel-obsession-with- hoosiers-around-the-world-was-a-textbook))

Scroll up in the linked Wikipedia submission, and read Cat's Cradle if you haven't. This is nothing new - Cat's Cradle was published in 1963 - <USER2> looked back to Seuss and star-bellied Sneetches. It's simply become magnified w/ self-reinforcing social platform dynamics.

</comment><comment><USER12> An implication of this is that labeling groups you disagree with may actually serve to strengthen their commitment to that disagreement. I.e. calling someone a climate change denier or an anti-vaxxer, groups them with other people with the same misconceptions, and strengthens their commitment to the ideas because it's now a commitment to their group.

</comment><comment><USER13> "They had found a can of white paint, and on the front doors of the cab Frank had painted white stars, and on the roof he had painted the letters of a granfalloon: U.S.A." – Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

The COVID-19 pandemic will test the assertion that the USA is a granfalloon. And presage our ability to tackle climate change.

</comment><comment><USER14> Is the group of all humans a granfalloon?

<comment><USER15> It will be the moment we make contact with aliens.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I get how Hoosiers are a granfalloon (the borders of the state of Indiana being essentially arbitrary), but how are groups defined by a shared philosophy and belief system like the Communist party a granfalloon? Like, what are some examples of groups that everyone would agree are definitely a "karass" rather than a "granfalloon"?

</comment><comment><USER17> Management and politicians are notorious for doing this; if there is threat of a union forming, historically the management's first move is to sow discord between immigrants and natives, French and Irish, or black and white- anything to keep people from forming groups based on actual _shared economic interests_. 90% of the acrimony in politics is just this phenomenon writ large. Urban vs rural, native vs immigrant, it's just a control mechanism.</comment>


Google fiber set to cause a revolution - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/broadband/google-fiber-medin/

<comment><USER2> Couldn't we find a word that is somewhere "below" revolution to describe this? Bringing connectivity to parts of the world that don't have it might be a revolution, but just bringing faster connections to people who can download more HD content doesn't seem revolutionary

<comment><USER3> I don't think the article is saying speed and connectivity are the revolution, rather that Google will revolutionize the ISP industry by providing a profitable network without ripping off consumers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It will really depend on how well Google accomplishes their goal. If it becomes a money sink, it won't be a revolution. Part of the reason Google is doing this is to get first hand knowledge of the costs and challenges.

</comment><comment><USER5> > "in 70 percent of Kansas City, Google will be able to string fiber using > utility poles."

I was under the impression that fiber needs to be underground; is running it over utility poles a common occurrence?

<comment><USER6> In places like Palo Alto all of the fiber to the home is done with fiber strung from utility poles. I believe the same is true of the fiber to the home setups in Washington state (east of Lake Washington at least).

<comment><USER7> Does fiber have the same ability to withstand elements and the like as copper wire?

It'll be interesting, Kansas City can have pretty intense weather.

<comment><USER8> There are standards for stringing up wire. I'm pretty sure that there is a heavy jacket protecting the cable, which is sometimes attached to a metal wire.

The alternatives aren't really viable. In most US cities, there aren't shared utility conduits underground, so burying cable means marking safe dig areas and burying cable in dedicated trench -- dumb idea.

Making things worse, utility poles are revenue generators for the local telephone and electric company, so there is no incentive to move aerial cable installations underground.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> A revolution? Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Kansas City?

<comment><USER10> Considering the role the internet played in those revolutions, I wouldn't downplay this.

<comment><USER9> Yes, the Mayor of Kansas City is probably moving his gold to secret locations as we write.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Excited that they are thinking about coming to other parts of the Kansas City Metro:)

</comment><comment><USER12> <http://www.google.com/tisp/>

</comment><comment><USER13> I know this is right out there, but why not focus on going wireless to solve this 'need to avoid digging stuff up' hurdle? I thought advances in wireless speeds was going to be the real revolution.

</comment><comment><USER14> A revolution for the rich and those who can afford fiber or are they making it more affordable now?

<comment><USER6> If you read the article it says that they are looking to optimize price for high adoption rates unlike many of the existing community fiber projects. Until pricing is announced no one knows what that means, but it does seem to be pointing towards more affordable high speed internet connections.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to create a service similar to Patreon? - <AUTHOR> I'd like to create a service similar to Patreon, I know how to do the technical side but not so sure about financial side: how do I charge users to send the funds to other type of users (creators), while subtracting a small percent? How does it need to be set up from the POV of financial compliance? Can it be reported as "payment to support Creator xyz" without a specific product? Does the company need to register as a bank or something similar to a bank? Financial services company? Where can I find some relevant resources, and how can I narrow down my research so that I don't have to read everything about all types of financial services but only more or less relevant info? (located in the US). <comment><USER3> I built a patreon competitor using stripe connect. It wasn't super successful, had a handful of creators making $20-$100/month, but it's definitely doable without a ton of legal work. Stripe makes it pretty easy. You can set it up so payments go directly from supporter to creator's stripe account, with a percent going to you. If you want to batch payments or have more control over funds then you actually need to collect funds and do the payouts, which makes things a bit more complex. Feel free to email me if you want to chat.

Honestly, dealing with payments is nothing compared to the amount of hand holding required to help creators set up a nice profile, pick good rewards, do a good job promoting their page, actually fulfill their rewards so they don't lose backers, etc. It often took months of back and forth with creators to finally get their page launched. I'd avoid building a patreon competitor unless you personally know some very big creators (500k+ followers) or have a very specific niche in mind.

<comment><USER4> How did you handle taxes for the creators?

<comment><USER5> Why can't the creators handle their own tax?

<comment><USER6> If there's a possibility to not handle the tax i would use that service in a heartbeat. The less i have to do the better.

<comment><USER7> Heh "Like Uber, but for tax accountants": attract tax experts from the creator's state/country to work for a percentage of their earnings.

Does it get more complicated if the creator has donations from different states/countries? I have a feeling yes. Oh geez.

<comment><USER8> There used to be exactly this, called Teaspiller. It was acquired by TurboTax.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've worked in the fintech space for 6 years this month. I've been a ceo/founder, vp of product, and managing partner. there's no way to shortcut this, you're going to need a chief compliance officer and to adhere to the right financial regulations, likely money transmission but possibly others as well. you need to contact a lawyer and get started BEFORE you process your first payment.

i will warn you, starting down this path can be lucrative in extreme cases, but in all situations will lead to massive frustration, headache, and stress coupled with minimum 5 year reporting and record keeping requirements.

this is a hard life for a solo entrepreneur and i do not recommend it wothout having raised a minimum of $2-5 million usd and 5-10 years of experience in regulated industries. this is not the industry where you get to move fast and break things. if you want more information or help hashing things out, you're welcome to reach out directly. i think my email is in my profile or its my username.

<comment><USER10> > this is a hard life for a solo entrepreneur and i do not recommend it > wothout having raised a minimum of $2-5 million usd

Let's not get everyone in the mindset that venture capitalism in the US is a good thing. Many startups and entrepreneurs in Europe and other continents have found success without raising any capital.

<comment><USER11> I read this comment as "You can't do this as a scrappy one-person startup," not "You must raise VC." Bootstrapping by using $2-5MM you / your cofounders have (from previous ventures, happening to be rich, etc.) would work fine.

Many startups and entrepreneurs can work great with minimal capital, both in Europe and outside Europe. The claim of this comment was this is the wrong business to be in if that's your goal (and I think that claim is intended to apply equally well in Europe).

<comment><USER9> thanks for helping me get the point across, that's exactly what i meant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There is absolutely no shortcut in this things. As soon as you are paying users there will be all sort of legal requirements/side effects which you need to be aware of. Starting with money laundering, taxes (yours and from your users even!), pleasing your payout provider that your content is not illegal, beeing able to payout in US&Europe or even global and ending with costs (you will probably never be able to compete with 5% from patreon). The thing is that all this risks apply mostly to your payout provider (this is why it is a hard problem, it's not only your risk alone). Good luck in finding a good partner. I'm betting that sites like Patreon have developed this things from scratch and in-house.

<comment><USER13> One question (since I do like shortcuts) -- what about if you have uses pay each other (through whatever means is available to them), and only act as the sort of negotiation point? Here's what I'm thinking:

\- user signs up

\- user registers x supported payment accounts (Paypal, Venmo, etc)

\- when a user wants to pay another user on their site, you send them to the appropriate payment provider with the details of the other user

\- take confirmation from user that received payment and use it to update "trustworthiness" scores for both users.

This seems like it could work as a way to sidestep _some_ of the legal requirements?

Though the amount of value the OP's company offers is a little lower (since you're not handling payments), I think the other benefits (discoverability, concentration of information, etc) that patreon offers are still seemingly on the table. Fraud of course is still an issue, but the upside is you can punt that to whatever payment provider they specify.

<comment><USER14> [https://streamlabs.com/](https://streamlabs.com/) does exactly this with PayPal. It goes directly to the streamer, and shows the name of the streamer's PayPal account. For Chess Grandmaster Benjamin Finegold whose stream I watch on Twitch, that's some chess education center in Atlanta. It also shows their email address and possibly a physical address, and it might show mine to them. I think the privacy issue might not make it work well for casual users like Patreon has, but for commercial users it would probably work better. I feel like I'm more likely to get my PayPal account flagged by donating to random streamers on StreamLabs than with an intermediary like Twitch or Patreon. I'm not too worried about it but I am more careful.

It also helps that tipping is just a minor feature of the product. Their product is an OBS which shows overlays and stuff in the stream, including an animation when someone leaves a tip. They also sell merchandise much like CafePress. I have a coffee mug with Hikaru Nakamura on it. Some info: [https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/07/how-streamlabs-is- helping...](https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/07/how-streamlabs-is-helping- livestreamers-monetize-their-audience-via-tips/)

If you can find a way to make tipping part of a larger product/service, it seems less likely to be used for money laundering, and to be more likely to work without a huge amount of expertise in the area of payment platforms.

<comment><USER13> Exactly what streamlabs does is a thing I thought I might make some day -- now I can wipe it off my list since it seems like they are already producing a fantastic product.

I really think that the streaming world could benefit from a decentralized streaming application but this seems like something streamlabs could easily pursue in a pivot or as a new feature so I think it could happen some day.

Thanks for sharing how you feel using the service as well (being a bit more careful) -- I'm sure it will help OP a bunch

<comment><USER15> Decentralization would require the streamer to have enough bandwidth to upload to each viewer. Uploading one stream to a CDN is ideal.

<comment><USER13> Right, except that decentralization is also the solution to fast data delivery -- CDNs work by _decentralizing_ data, and if the people who built this were smart, they'd work in a way where users could get discounts for helping to spread/rehost paid streams (for a discount to their sub fee, for example), or choose to help a streamer out by replicating their stream for free.

I personally think you could find a lot of people who would be willing to help CDN/share/host for streamers they support, a nice step between watch for free and upvote/like and send the streamer money.

Even if you didn't want to go the P2P route, there's no reason that streamlabs can't step in to help provide that infrastructure if it's cost effective (i.e. if the streamer is paying) -- surely a streamer is going to be willing to drop $50 on extra resources for a stream if they think it's going to bring them >$50 worth of recognition/good content for their streamers. Streamlabs wouldn't even have to keep these resources on hand, they could spin them up on demand and just charge a slight premium. Even better, streamlabs could give streamers easy tools to enable purchasing cloud resources for better stream quality, and charge them for the convenience (and let them know of course that they pay the AWS bills at the end of the day).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> May I ask what is pushing you to want to create a competitor?

I bet it is because you strongly disagree with their stance on free speech (they ban creators based on all type of nonsense backed with the typical "Hate speech" excuse). This is actually a very difficult problem, as you will now depends on Stripe, and behind that Visa and Mastercard. Those companies will happily ban you if you support any creator that isn't Politically correct based on the consensus at that time.

I'm myself considering jumping into that space, but the financial world is held together by a couple of Titans, and it is unfortunately extremely difficult to go against the general "mobbing" that happens on the usual platforms.

<comment><AUTHOR> No, that's not the reason. Also it's not a direct competitor, I want to focus more on microtips.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Start with a legal team. Seriously.

That said, I feel like this is a bit of a weird post for HN. You are asking the hardest questions of "How do I build a successful competitor to an already successful competitor?" - isn't that the essence of founding a company?

Like i don't want to discourage thoughtful discussions on this site and I'm not saying any rules are being broken, but it feels a bit disingenuous to be asking these questions in the sense that people that have real answers to this are probably charging REAL fees, if not already doing the whole thing themselves.

<comment><USER18> Not OP, but I think there are tons of different application of the basic idea that patreon is based on. I took this as a technical question which could also be worded as "how do I build a service where I can link a buyer with a seller and earn money on that transaction?"

<comment><USER17> The OP specifically states that they know the technical part and are asking about the "financial side".

But - > "How do I build a service where I can link a buyer with a seller and earn money on that transaction?"

I googled that exact phrase just to see what came up, and the first link was this: [https://www.sharetribe.com/academy/how-to-design-your- market...](https://www.sharetribe.com/academy/how-to-design-your-marketplaces- transaction-flow/)

Which highlights Paypal and Stripe as clear and strong answers to this question, which I'd expect most people asking it to already know - it's the other questions that are tougher.

<comment><AUTHOR> That article is about creating a marketplace rather than a "support" type of setup that Patreon has. From a financial & compliance POV it's quite different because it's not a payment for a specific product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> On a code specific sidenote there's LibrePay which is open source under CC0. This might be a good starting point code wise. If you do make a profit off their codebase I advise you donate some back to them, but you're under no obligation to do so, likewise with any code improvements, but again no obligation. I know you're asking more business geared questions, but figure it wouldn't hurt to mention. The only thing is LibrePay doesn't take a cut, not sure if you'd have to go out of your way to implement that 'cut' into the service. But reading about their setup might guide you towards what you do need to do in order to start your service. I am no lawyer, financial or other kind of expert (just a lowly Software Engineer on HN), just pointing out availability options.

[https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com](https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com)

</comment><comment><USER20> Here's a post about a story that made the rounds back when Patreon made some changes a while back: [https://geoffkratz.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/is-patreon- about...](https://geoffkratz.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/is-patreon-about- regulations/) It should give you a few pointers on things _not_ to do in order to steer clear of violating financial regulations. It's probably far from a complete list, but should give you some starting points of things you'll need to be aware of.

<comment><USER21> Although that post should have a heavy disclaimer to talk to a lawyer; I wouldn't risk my savings/a business based on a blog post.

<comment><USER20> Yep, that's why I only suggested it as a starting point. Anyone embarking on a business that potentially involves a (heavily) regulated industry needs to step carefully.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> There needs to be a Patreon alternative. I decided to contribute to a favourite author and found that I could register for an account, but logging on and paying people? Ha! I'm not a robot but I'm fscked if I'm going to battle through _19_ Captchas (I gave up at 19). I even wrote to Patreon but not even the courtesy of a reply was forthcoming.

Sod'em

/rant

<comment><USER23> As a creator on Patreon, I find this disturbing. I've had problems battling through captchas to log in, but I didn't consider the supporter side. I wonder what's going on there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I was pondering doing a stellar based platform for this a few weeks ago. It wouldn't be that hard to do technically but there are many legal and practical hurdles.

Using something like stellar would sidestep some of the financial headaches around trying to do this through the existing financial system at the cost of being less user friendly. IMHO particularly recurring payments would be a big headache (like monthly donations). On the flipside, any fiat interactions, and the associated tax consequences would be offloaded to exchanges and users.

One cool thing that you could do with stellar is use so-called federated accounts to represent content owners and users. This simply means you have a database with accounts that you map incoming payments (from stellar) to based on a memo that is attached to the transaction. So, this allows us to have lots of accounts represented by a single stellar wallet. More importantly, it allows most of the users/owners to sidestep the issue of wallet and key management until they have to care. And finally it allows us to do micro payments. Imagine distributing 5$ worth of XLM or whatever token on stellar across hundreds of content owners based on likes or preferences of the user.

Another thing you could do is represent content owners preemptively (i.e. before they've even heard of you) with their own little federated wallet. The way that could work is that users reward whatever they think is worth rewarding and those rewards go to a dedicated account for the content owner. When owners register, they claim their rewards by proving ownership, doing KYC, and whatever else we need them to. Unclaimed rewards simply get redistributed periodically to selected good causes related to open content (e.g. wikimedia).

Building this technically is not that hard. But the organizational challenges around this are big. You need legal staffing and IMHO this only makes sense when run as a foundation and not as a VC funded walled garden/money grab for investors & shareholders. The foundation itself could run off donations via its own platform plus maybe some kind of base fee of e.g. 2-3%. When restricted to R&D and operational cost, it should not need a lot of resources and IMHO incentives for profit contradict the overall goal of the site which is to allow users to reward content producers.

</comment><comment><USER25> Don't want to discourage you but money health and law are the three worst thing to work with in IT

First of all you can't neither "term-of-service-away" nor delegate diligence, second because the regulatory frameworks around them updates almost yearly if not more often.

Self research these three topics doesn't seem a good idea. Budget for or partner up with an expert in the field, because even using a third party service doesn't fully absolve you from responsibilities.

</comment><comment><USER26> This is a really hard problem. You do not want to have to register as a bank or hire an expensive compliance team. Use Stripe.

<comment><AUTHOR> Does Stripe actually allow this type of use though? Does it have to be special agreement / account with them or just a regular plain stripe account?

<comment><USER27> They literally have a product for this use case, it's called Stripe Connect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Hire someone that knows the answer, ideally someone that's worked on exactly this type of system before. Don't make any decisions about something this delicate based on the advice of random people on the internet.

</comment><comment><USER29> Take a look at Stripe Connect

<comment><USER30> I second this. Stellar experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> From a short cut perspective, you could do the following:

Require each of your customers (creators) to sign up for a Stripe account and have them input into your system their processing keys. Whenever somebody wants to pay them, use their keys to process the payment and it goes directly into their Stripe account. This would offload all legal liabilities (Stripe would determine whether their business is okay to operate from a processing standpoint) and tax responsibilities fall completely on them.

Here are the drawbacks:

1) You wouldn't be able to automatically take a percent of a creator's billings but rather would have to calculate it and invoice them / charge their card

2) Patrons wouldn't be able to save a credit card and use it across multiple creators

3) Your fees would be on top of the 2.9% that Stripe charges a creator which would be limited to 2.1% if you want to compete with Patreon at 5%

<comment><USER32> > _You wouldn't be able to automatically take a percent of a creator's > billings but rather would have to calculate it and invoice them / charge > their card_

Stripe Connect allows you to collect an "application fee": [https://stripe.com/docs/connect/direct-charges#collecting- fe...](https://stripe.com/docs/connect/direct-charges#collecting-fees)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> There was a story on HN a while ago about Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon- similar service for Danish creators [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18820196](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18820196) It was a single person running it.

<comment><USER34> Oh wow, I had no idea failory did success interviews.. I've been assuming anything that's appeared there has shut down

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> In Europe you would need to set yourself up as a payment services provider (PSP). I believe the US has a similar regime. [https://paymentscompliance.com/us-money- transmitters](https://paymentscompliance.com/us-money-transmitters) You'll need a reasonable amount of capital behind you. Next step would be to find a law firm specialising in payments and go and get some advice.

</comment><comment><USER36> Heya, I built something similar for a startup usig stripe connect:

[https://stripe.com/connect](https://stripe.com/connect)

I'd start with their docs.

We pushed all tax concerns to the client (we used standard accounts for our sellers, which might not be an option for you) and made it clear it was their responsibility.

The downside was the price. Not a lot of alternatives at the time (Braintree, PayPal) but that may have changed.

</comment><comment><USER37> Oh boy. You are in a world of hurt here.

The issue here is on the banking regulations than the technical side. The technical side here is a breeze, an absolute breeze that any technically competent developer can knock out a Patreon clone in about a week.

I've gone through most of the answers already and not surprised by the lack of knowledge. I've been looking at banking for the l8 months - almost 2 years. My next step is to approach someone competent and with a track record in the industry to start up a fintech company and approach a bank to start the long process of becoming a bank.

But I digress :)

To do this yourself. Let me explain the following steps you'll need to fulfil.

1) The ability to on-board individuals and perform KYC.

2) Taking and validating the individuals bank account for payments.

3) Processing credit card payments and splitting them up between the % for you and the rest for the creator.

4) Dealing with fraud when taking the credit card payments.

5) Sending the payment to the creator and doing FX spot transactions where necessary.

6) Performing AML on each payment.

There's so much more, but I want to keep this post succinct.

As others have said. Stripe is the quickest shortcut to this. They have already built it all out and you just need to connect your platform to their API.

The downside is that whether rightly or wrongly. Patreon is their preferred partner in this space. Let's say "Sargon of Akkad" joined your platform and Stripe is processing your payments. You would be shut down when word got out.

If you don't understand what I mean. Please do some googling. I won't go into it with this post.

Now if you definitely want to do this yourself, here are some of the problems you'll face.

The first thing you need to realise, that by not actually running right now. No credit card processor is going to touch you. I've been knocked back by many processors because I have no volume. It's a chicken and egg problem. How can I start if I have no credit card processor? They don't care.

If you do find a credit card processor, there are still some issues. Can the processor split the incoming payment? Many can't. If that is the case you'll have to become the merchant of record which means you'll be responsible for all the chargebacks/refunds/etc instead of the creator. But then also means you'll need banking licenses for all the geo-locations of the individuals that on-board on the platform. The reason being that you are holding client's monies.

The next thing is that KYC and AML checks are very expensive. Although the credit card processor will do the checks themselves, you'll have to do it as well when monies flow into your account. You'll have to KYC the individual on- board and then AML whenever a payment is sent out. I haven't yet found an all you can eat. They want you to purchase packs ahead of time and also they run out. Also KYC and AML are separate companies as well. So that's double the cost.

The next thing is that you'll need to find a company to help you sending ACH payments and then either SWIFT or XRP for international payment as well.

Finally, there is another way. If you do find a credit card processor that can on-board individuals and hold them accountable for the payments instead of you and can then split the payments and put the funds in their home bank account or an intermediary for moving on later. Subscribe Star does something similar to this. You can achieve that.

However, you are back to square one. You are not current processing and thus service providers won't work with you.

You have a long road ahead. I suggest going with Stripe. Build out your platform, get some processing and when you want to cut the cord with Stripe. The other financial service providers will be willing to work with you. Because you'll have volume.

Oh and ensure you have well over 100k a month of transactions. That's the sweet spot from my many conversations. I've lost count now of how many service providers I have spoken to. 250 or more lol.

</comment><comment><USER38> If I were to withhold 3% of everyone's total to cover credit card fees plus $0.10 per every transaction because the bank fees range from 1%-3% per card and it's difficult to sort them, would it be legally acceptable? Any insights?

<comment><USER39> Huh [https://newproject2.com/why-zero-fees/](https://newproject2.com/why-zero- fees/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I wish you the best with this if you do move forward!

Lots of room for competitors in this space for now. I think one of your focus should be on helping someone that was previously on Patreon make more on your platform.

</comment><comment><USER41> Related: How to create Stripe or Paypal? Again, from the finance and I guess soft-skill perspective. Do I need to negotiate with particular banks, countries, etc...?

</comment><comment><USER42> I would also be interested in the technical side of it. What kind of domain model, system design would you use? What tech stack would be suitable? etc.

</comment><comment><USER43> Sharetribe does this as a service, and I don't understand why they are not bigger than Patreon.

Before reading this thread, I had all but written off cryptocurrencies. This is the use case. Now the only thing missing is content compelling and unique enough for people to buy the tokens to access it.

Funny that it will be art that will do what gambling, drugs, money laundering, tax evasion, and black markets could not.

</comment><comment><USER44> [https://liberapay.com/](https://liberapay.com/)

</comment><comment><USER45> My advice would be to join Patreon/Stripe/some other payment services company, and realize that it isn't something a single engineer, no matter how skilled, can throw together in a week, a month, a year, or a decade.

<comment><AUTHOR> How did Patreon start exactly? IIRC it was just two guys without major backers, I'm really curious what was their MVP like.

<comment><USER46> [https://techcrunch.com/video/patreon-the- idea/](https://techcrunch.com/video/patreon-the-idea/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> there is an uncensored version using Bitcoin at bitpatreon

</comment><comment><USER48> There was an alternative named Hatron that used Visa until Visa pulled services because they funded conservatives. Libertarians, and white nationals.

So contact the credit card companies and watch who you fund.

<comment><USER49> it was probably the white nationalists that caused visa to pull out

<comment><USER50> Yeah. And I mean, they called it Hatreon. "What if Patreon but for hate" is _the brand_. They weren't subtle.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> My friend does it, he operates a company (In NYC) which accepts the payments and he then wires the creators after holding back X% in reserve fee less the service fee

He's been doing it for a while (4 years) now averaging 500K per month in payments.

All his customers are people from third world or second world countries like Russia, India etc...where accepting international credit cards is bit difficult and probably has more fees.

He raises invoices in his own company name then the creators are written off as independent contractors.

So creators will need to do their own taxes.

He's using Braintree and Stripe and load balancing between these two.

He's one man show and knows nothing about law/accounting.

He also got one accountant who is helping him calculate and make financial reports

It can be done I guess

<comment><USER52> Please get me in touch with your friend, my contact info is in my profile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> There are a lot of sites doing similar things, which aren't as well known as Patreon. Patreon is popular, but it does have some drawbacks, such as only taking USD.

Some alternatives include:

Sther - A site all about inclusivity, aimed at the LGBTQ and POC communities. Steady - Designed more as a way for freelancers to fund their work. Podia - Recently launched membership crowdfunding, building on their short course and digital download platform. Ko-Fi - It is a freemium model that requires paid membership to receive monthly payments from fans, instead of one offs. Drip - A recently opened membership funding site which is owned by Kickstarter. Liberapay - A site for repeat donations. Open Collective - for transparent ongoing funding of groups. Backerpass - Another membership funding alternative, based on reaching goals. SubscribeStar - For subscribing to Social Media influencers and helping them with payment subscriptions. Collide - Yet another alternative which has recently been launched. Ratafire - <USER2> small creator membership site. Minds - A Cryptocurrency option for subscriptions. Kind of. I'm sure there'll be many more sites like these in future, as fan funding is certainly something that's catching on!

<comment><USER54> Let's not forget about Tipeee, which might be the only platform actually not in debt (they merely raised 150 000€ 3 years ago, and officially declared benefits last year).

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Partner up with someone knowledgeable, perhaps a paralegal who has worked in finance. They will know when to call in the big guns.

<comment><USER56> OP needs a team of experienced regulatory compliance attorneys. Suggesting a paralegal to assist with this issue is akin to suggesting an x-ray technician to help someone who needs surgery.</comment></comment>