Welcome to HN.  Please, read 'Hacker News Guidelines.' We take them seriously. - <AUTHOR> http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html?= <comment><USER2> My biggest complaint about Hacker News is that the upmodding and downmodding of comments is used to express agreement/disagreement rather than as a method of distinguishing the quality of the post itself. I regularly upmod intelligent, yet unpopular, comments if they've fallen below 1.

<comment><USER3> See

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171>

from the keyboard of pg, expressing a differing point of view.

After edit: the low-rated comments that most disappoint me are the comments asking follow-up questions, to verify information asserted in the parent comment. I'd like to see a lot more upvotes for comments along the lines of "Could you cite some references on that?" or "What is an example of that?" or "What are some of the best online sources on that issue?" Most of us like to learn here, and the guidelines say that "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" is on topic, so anyone who asks a question to pursue curiosity ought to see that comment upvoted, it seems to me.

<comment><USER4> In response to pg's argument: assuming there is a flaw in the system, that is, assuming agreement does not correlate with quality, then downvotng would simply amplify the effect of opinion based voting, and thus marginalize quality based voting (because peopl's opinions are a stronger force).

So ideally a lot haters would vote down, and a lot of agree-ers would vote up. And it would balance it out. But this only works if we assume the right amount of people are backing a good idea.

What happens if it's an unpopular but good comment? Then allowing people to downvote would quickly suppress it without enough counteracting "I Agree" upvotes.

So upvotes can be used for more than quality indicator, but a downvote simply makes the system more volatile. If there were just an upvote and no downvote, then the novote will simply be the new downvote. Except the novote will be less volatile.

<comment><USER5> My problem with downvoting-for-disagreement is that it is not symmetrical to upvoting-for-agreement.

If someone makes a quality comment, but it happens to be an unpopular view, and they get voted negative, they are less likely to express their view in the future... and we are the poorer for it. No one wants a monoculture.

If that same person makes the same comment, and people merely upvote the opposing viewpoint, then neither person is being 'discouraged' from contributing. One is just being encouraged more than the other.

I realize it's all just a number and shouldn't matter, but we are human beings and it does... seeing someone else get told "good job" isn't near as bad as someone telling you "bad job"... especially when you thought that you had done something good by contributing a useful viewpoint.

(Obviously none of this applies to trolls/spam and things that are outright false... people shouldn't say things they can't provide evidence for.)

To make a rather tenuous analogy: If you don't like a product, you don't get to take money away from the company that makes that product. The best you can do is give money to their competitor. And to extend that, you can only take money (fines) from some company if they do something illegal. Here doing something 'illegal' is trolling/spamming.

<comment><USER6> _No one wants a monoculture._

I see a lot of people saying this, but judging by peoples' actions I'm not sure it's true. If I had to guess I'd say that maybe 1/4 (of hackers, a far smaller slice of the general public) of folks really do value a truly vigorous open exchange of ideas and welcome reasoned and thoughtful criticism, with the remaining 3/4 of folks implicitly willing to live within the cozy confines of an ideological fishbowl.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Suggestion: after "If you submit a link to a video or pdf, please warn us by appending [video] or [pdf] to the title." add another paragraph:

If you submit a link to old news, please warn us by appending [year] (the year of publication) to the title.

Justification: Revisiting "old" news can be very worth while, but we appreciate a warning that it isn't current.

<comment><USER8> If it's old, but of current interest, who cares much about the date? If it's old and not of current interest, don't link it here.

<comment><USER9> It's not "old is bad," but "avoiding unnecessary confusion is good."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't know if this is still the case but when I created this account there was a welcome link up where you find

       [Y]Hacker News  welcome | new | comments | ...

linking to this.

Edit: To be more clear I think the welcome link disappeared after a certain amount of karma was acquired like other little features on HN ( flag,downvote,topcolor ).

<comment><USER11> Actually it doesn't link to the guidelines. It links to

<http://ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html>

I added this feature within the last year, so none of the established users know it exists, but I think it has helped stave off decline as HN has grown.

<comment><USER12> You should add a bit of space between the edge of the beige and the text.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, you're right. The original intention was to make the beige almost invisible, so that it just added a subtle impression of a box bounding the text, but it isn't really working that way.

It works better on pages with images that are flush with the beige on both sides. If you indent the text, what do you do with the images? Indent them too? Maybe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I haven't read these in quite a while, and had hearty chuckle at:

 _"If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. (It's a common semi-noob illusion.)"_

Was that in the original guidelines, or a recent addition? It seems almost too perfect in response to the comment that iamelgringo was responding to. (As malte pointed out elsewhere in this thread: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978170>)

<comment><USER13> It's been in at least since Erlang Day. I'd bet it's been a year or two.

It's always felt on the verge, but has never dropped off the edge. I suppose it's more exciting that way.

<comment><USER14> I'm assuming this is a different Erlang Day than the one I was here for, as I'm still a noob. (And on that note, how many have there been? And can we pick another language for subsequent days plz?)

<comment><USER15> i can recall two 'erlang days' so far.

the first happened when pg said the site was having some trouble coping with an influx of new users due to some high-profile mentions on other sites. he suggested posting articles about erlang to make the site look boring. i guess people complied a little more than he was expecting, so then he asked people to stop.

the second time was when the site was overrun with articles about _why, right after his disappearance. some people thought it was a little too much, which once again triggered an influx of erlang articles. it looked to me like pg and the editors started killing erlang articles after that, and possibly the _why articles as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It's a good idea to point to the HN guidelines from time to time. I just wonder if there was a specific incident that made you submit them. Just curious.

<comment><USER17> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978141>

Edit: oh, just answering to which incident. In the comments, iamelgringo talked about submission guidelines, so I'm guessing that's why he resubmitted them here, so yeah, I meant the discussion.

<comment><USER18> Kinda confused. The user who submitted that Ask HN is an older member, so they technically should know the rules. Or perhaps you meant the discussion taking place?

<comment><USER16> I guess he's referring to this comment: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978170>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Can I add a suggest adding something about comment moderation to the Guidelines? Perhaps:

"Don't downmod comments just because you disagree with them. Similarly, don't upmod a comment just because it takes your side. Instead, vote up for comments that further the discussion, and down for comments that do not."

<comment><USER20> Usually it's the comments I agree with that I want to see discussed more.

<comment><USER19> OK, feel free to reword it to "upvote the comments you want to see discussed more". My main thrust is that an explicit guideline should be given for comment moderation, not what the exact content should be.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> What is the opinion on silly comments in submissions that will soon be killed? I've seen people get in one word comments in some of these submissions and not get downvoted.

I have had some fun myself. My latest: "Opening studiobriefing.net was like watching time lapse photography of some butt-ugly flower blooming."

These are the only times that I knowingly type something that I know has a good chance of getting downvoted. _But I will stop_ if you guys tell me it is a bigger deal than I think it is. I just don't see the harm in commenting something silly into a submission that will likely get killed.

Please correct me if this is at all detrimental to the community.

<comment><USER22> Consider that it adds to the noise, even if in a small way. People learn etiquette through observation; if someone sees both a bad submission and a bad comment, they're more likely to think that's okay around here.

<comment><USER21> Thank you for your reply.

As for my downvote. I had an idea of how my question would be received.

But, it was an honest question since -- and you have to agree -- the values of humor and sarcasm here are usually left at the front door. For some of us, it is hard to let go of since it is held in high regard in the real world and other internet communities.

So, I thought it was a valid question that deserved a response for those of us who are so new, that we're on the border of whether or not to completely abandon humor and snark. The appropriateness of this aspect of the HN community has been really hard to gauge, and is frankly a culture shock.

scott_s's comment was the final verification that I needed that, yes, when submitting silliness, to please be more careful.

<comment><USER23> Humor is welcome on HN, but attempts at humor are not. It's just that HN has a higher standard of what is actually funny.

Some recent examples:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=976321>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=978683>

I've found that humor is _always_ acceptable in any community, but the standards and flavor can vary wildly. Unless you feel that you really have a good handle on what the community thinks is funny, it's best to avoid trying. I'm convinced that discouraging attempts at humor that are not funny is for the best in any online community. Humor should be used sparingly and skillfully.

<comment><USER21> This is just plain hard for me to gauge, but thanks for your reply as well.

I know what you mean by saying that attempts at humor are not welcome here. I'll see a comment that I think is pretty witty, but it has maybe 0, or less, points. I click the user, and it turns out they're respectable.

I've gotten a couple pretty well received comments in, and a few failures. So the whole point of my original comment was to eliminate an easy platform for humor.

I mean, it is pretty easy to make fun of a bad submission and I've seen a few respectable users do it. So I did it myself a couple times and had fun. But I wasn't sure if that was okay -- in the grander scheme of the community, detrimental -- which is why I asked here if it was a big deal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> "Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation."

I certainly don't say things on HN that I wouldn't say in a face to face conversation, but that's because I'm honest offline as well as on (read: not civil). It can get me into trouble, but I sure as hell am not going to stop saying what I think because of downvotes (on HN) or in the name of good manners (IRL).

<comment><USER24> Honesty and politeness are generally orthogonal.

<comment><USER25> Popular belief among those lacking social grace. It is quite easy to disagree with people without being impolite about it. All it requires is a bit social intelligence and basic good manners. Being an asshole and trying to excuse it with "I'm just being honest" just makes you a far bigger asshole.

<comment><USER26> > It is quite easy to disagree with people without being impolite about it.

Maybe for you; I don't doubt its possibility, I just want to say that I find it extremely difficult to do myself.

<comment><USER24> And it doesn't always come naturally to me, either. I had to learn. I would suggest this book; it's the best communication book I've ever read: [http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Harmonious-Relationships- Prac...](http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Harmonious-Relationships-Practical- Empathy/dp/0967274168/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260048588&sr=8-1)

This book is also a good read: [http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play- Transactional-Analys...](http://www.amazon.com/Games-People-Play- Transactional- Analysis/dp/0345410033/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260048697&sr=8-1)

<comment><USER14> The mind knows how, but the soul is unwilling. I _know_ how to tiptoe around people, but I greatly prefer being combative.

Which explains why my adviser is currently holding the contents of my bookshelf locked in her office until I comply with her demands. Score by her, but I tend to win these battles by not giving a shit.

...and now you all know how immature I am :D.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Would some research in the field help ? I am reading <http://presnick.people.si.umich.edu//#publications> for a term paper, seems very relevant. If anyone has read his work before, can you tell us what is applicable to HN case? I'll post back something when done reading!

</comment><comment><USER24> By the way, the fact that there is a continued and unresolved discussion about voting based on agreement suggests that the voting feature is broken. There is a design defect in this web software, pg; please consider redesigning it! I would consider it fixed when a significant majority of users find voting intuitive and useful.

<comment><USER11> An ongoing dispute isn't always (or perhaps even often) a sign that something is broken. E.g. evolution. If I could think of a better approach I'd implement it, of course, but I doubt there is one.

<comment><USER4> Could you try one of our suggested solutions, and as long as it doesn't mess the whole site up, keep it? And if it doesn't solve our original issue, try another one of the suggested solutions, and as long as it doesn't screw things up keep it?

I mean iterate, so that HN can evolve right?

I agree that public sentiment should not always be factored in, as we will naturally oppose change. So if you test a radically new system you'll get opposition. But as long as the actual results aren't negative, I think it's at least progress.

<comment><USER24> And the new system can be opt-in while it's being tested.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I suggest adding one more guideline - before submitting a post, check to see if it has already been submitted.

<comment><USER29> Last I checked, identical URLs are automatically prevented. But the duplication becomes a problem when people decide to submit blog posts, etc. instead of original articles. There is (usually) only one "best" URL for a story.

<comment><USER30> Also an issue when people submit the "printer-friendly version" and also the ordinary version.

Proposed guideline: submit the "printer-friendly" version?

<comment><USER31> and/or have hacker news auto-flag the printer friendly / non-printer friendly version where it's possible to do so, could be an idea too. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> It looks like I've been breaking the "use asterisks for emphasis" rule for years without realizing it.

I've always used _foo_ for code-specific articles, or FOO for a more general audience, and reserved _foo_ for parenthetical physical actions such as _shrug_ or _bows_.

My bad.

</comment><comment><USER33> like/dislike to show opinion. +1/-1 to assure that the post is valid.

</comment><comment><USER34> They used to be taken seriously.

<comment><USER35> Which one do you feel is not being taken seriously? Just wondering.

<comment><USER34> Where shall I start?

First I'll start with submissions: all to often Hacker News looks like any run of the mill news site. No longer is it the spot I rely on to go and see what the hackers are up to. Because too often now it's the same junk on Digg.

Comments: the quality of comments on here is pitiful. They're used to be good discussions and relatively long, well thought and written comments. Again, like Digg it's getting where people are just doing a 1 line/sentence post where seems like they're just trying to hit on something that other people will vote up for more karma points.

<comment><USER35> Fair enough. Yet I have to wonder about how you criticized one line posts after making that one line post yourself: "They used to be taken seriously."

One line posts can sometimes be better than rambling on and one. If you get straight to the point a pithy statement can be more rewarding. However, there is definitely a problem with snarky one line put downs as the guidelines suggest.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Why is this posted? There is a link for the guidelines at the bottom so what's the point of making a post of it.</comment>


Arrested: China's head of bureau of economic statistics - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/china-official-arrested-for-economic-speech-2016-1 <comment><AUTHOR> This is an excellent example of what NOT to do, right along with threatening FX traders who are reportedly shorting the RMB ( [http://www.businessinsider.com/china-warns-yuan- shorts-2016-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/china-warns-yuan- shorts-2016-1) ).

I can't see how China, with an estimated 3 Trillion in reserves, is going to dictate to the 11 Trillion FX market how it should move - apart from adopting a transparent and proactive approach that acknowledges all the problems and puts forth a coherent, verifiable plan for resolving them.

At a time when we should be reading articles about asset liquidation entities (ala US Savings and Loan crisis) and middle class spending incentive programs (ala Cars for Clunkers) - we're instead reading about jailing statisticians.</comment>


Inactivity, excess weight linked to hard-to-treat heart failures - <AUTHOR> http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/10845.html <comment><USER2> Actual paper:

[http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/accj/69/9/1129.full.pdf](http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/accj/69/9/1129.full.pdf)</comment>


Dell XPS 13 2-in-1 Review - <AUTHOR> http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/dell-xps-13-2-in-1 <comment><USER2> They took a great laptop and ruined it by putting the page up/down buttons next to the arrow keys where we can all accidentally hit them. Sign me up.

<comment><USER3> A lot of Windows laptops do this, sadly.

The new MBP 2016 annoyed me (until I went back to my 2015 model) by making the left/right arrows the same size as the up/down and the other surrounding keys, which means your fingers can no longer find them by touch alone; I kept hitting shift and option instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why would I buy this over Dell's 2n1 that I have with a Core I7 for $699?

[https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Dell- In...](https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Dell- Inspiron-13-i7359-8408SLV-Signature-Edition-2-in-1-PC/productID.333089100)

</comment><comment><USER5> Looks pretty slick. I'm in the market for a laptop I carry to work every day and leave my 5lb MBP at the office more like a mobile desktop.

Pretty intrigued by this vs the expensive X1 Carbon or Yoga. The quickcharge on the X1 sounds amazing though...

</comment><comment><USER6> I think the Core-Y processor 4.5W TDP would be too slow for many. I've never tried one though.</comment>


The NSA Is Trying to Create a Virtual Clone of Me - <AUTHOR> https://eev.ee/blog/2016/03/03/the-nsa-is-trying-to-create-a-virtual-clone-of-me/ <comment><USER2> From the examples, sounds like _you 're_ the slightly lossy clone of someone else.

</comment><comment><USER3> Was interested at first but the tweets clearly came from a neural net. Who would consider changing Sphinx to puppy? A distributed word embedding, save as the other modifications. Look into word2vec, RNNs, etc.

</comment><comment><USER4> My guess is that it's running similar to decaptha in n which their is a human/manual process involved. The pulling of the tweet is automated, scrubbed based on criteria, and then a human changes or confirms the tweet. Indians working off of a thesaurus would be rather inexpensive.

</comment><comment><USER5> What if it's a bot that gets by with a little help from mturk?</comment>


FiveThirtyEight: Ranking 636 International Club Soccer Teams - <AUTHOR> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/global-club-soccer-rankings/ <comment><AUTHOR> Olympiakos (who didn't even win the Greek league) are marked as the 9th best team, and ranked higher than Ajax, Spurs, and Juventus. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯</comment>


Who owns water? The US landowners putting barbed wire across rivers - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/15/privatized-rivers-us-public-lands-waterways <comment><USER2> Standard practice of their politics. Take from the public and give to the rich.

</comment><comment><USER3> > "Private property owners are some of the biggest conservation stewards right > now," he says. "I feel like the beauty of our lands and species survival is > up to private landowners."

Stands out as somewhat hypocritical to think in those terms but then act selfishly and hide the beauty away.

<comment><USER4> Still better than developing it, in many cases.

<comment><USER5> I'm one of those people who thinks there's a land crisis going on and it's being fueled by wealthy, doomsday preppers. People are putting up private property signs on public (re: federal lands) every where they can and are trying to claim rivers as their own. I think a lot of it started with Michael Burry convincing wealthy people to do it after he got success by betting on the housing crash, combined with the political landscape.

But regardless, as a non-wealthy person who enjoys the outdoors it's very concerning. I don't like that I may be out one day on a river or a trail (particularly when on a mountain bike, dirt bike, or in my Wrangler) and may encounter barbed wire or "private property" signs when it's definitely not private property.

I canoed and kayaked 150 miles through the Adirondacks and I remember a lot of private property signs but it was all in regards to the shore and actual land; signs put up to keep people from camping on private land. I get that. But blockading a river isn't much different than blockading a road to me.

They're getting away with it right now because it's small tributaries and such, but what if some jackass pulled this off on the Mississippi or something equivalent? Logistics of that aside, I bet some governments would be far more concerned. And depending on how court cases regarding this go they may be setting someone up to do just that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> That's been going on for decades. I recall barbed wire on rivers in the Colorado Rockies. Also on some creeks in the Southeast.

But yes, hitting barbed wire sucks for canoers and kayakers. It can get people killed. Some of us carried wire cutters.</comment>


Tips for creating a quick start guide - <AUTHOR> https://makeitclear.co.uk/10-tips-for-creating-quick-start-guides/ <comment><AUTHOR> A quick start guide (QSG) is a document that helps the user to get started with a product or service.

1\. Identify the objective(s)

What problem does your quick start guide help the user to solve? It is important to identify the objectives before starting to write it.

2\. Show don't tell

Have you considered imagery and visual indicators? Users may depend on illustrations or imagery to show them the equipment they should be using and how to complete the actions.

3\. Define the scenarios

In order to cover and explain everything required to solve the problem, the guide must consider the user perspective.

4\. Research the user

Do you really know your user? Carrying out research into the user and scenario will help you to understand their experience.

5\. Assume a low level of understanding

Quick start guides are written to help guide non-technical individuals to a setup solution. It is best to not assume that a user will understand.

6\. Add headings and timings

Have you clearly separated the steps of your guide? Writing clear, succinct headings can summarise the step in the process. Adding a time scale can help a user to accurately estimate the time it will take.

7\. Keep it simple, but descriptive

A QSG guide should be simple and succinct but simultaneously descriptive and add context where it needs to. Technical language should be avoided wherever possible.

8\. Be clear and consistent

The design and the language of the guide should be clean and clear, adhering to the brand tone of voice and optimised for the readability of the guide.

9\. Test with real users

Have you checked that your quick start guide is helpful to the user? User testing will confirm that the guide solves the problem and fulfils your objectives without adding to user frustration.

10\. Keep the content up-to-date

Quick start guides are only useful if they are accurate, up to date representations of the product or service.</comment>


A Minimal Kernel in Rust - <AUTHOR> https://os.phil-opp.com/minimal-rust-kernel/ <comment><USER2> How exciting! How exciting!</comment>


The lucrative business of America's opioid crisis - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/addiction-inc.html <comment><USER2> It does not take much, I had injury that resulted in a prescription and once it's no longer hitting just the pain receptors (I don't really understand how this all works or claim to) and you feel the "calming" effect you can pretty quickly see why it can become so addictive and scary. Even being educated, happy, well-off, and aware you can fall to these type of addictions, I can't imagine how hard it must be for many others.

<comment><USER3> i am a foreigner trying to understand this issue: why don't they just stop prescribing opium based pain killers to the general public and limit them to cancer patients - like they do in the rest of the world, wouldn't that scale down the crisis? How did the problem get this large? Even Imperial China went to war when Britain started pushing Opium to the public, why wasn't this whole thing stopped much earlier?

<comment><USER4> Opium-based pain killers are the most reliable way to ease pain without causing organ damage in the near term.

Drugs like Advil and Tylenol cause organ damage even at small doses and are thus unusable for extreme pain.

Opiates are used the world over for pain relief, not just for cancer patients. If we had a way to ease pain with something non-addictive that didn't cause immediate organ damage that would be great.

<comment><USER5> The key difference is the easy availability in the US. It seems to me that the GPs are eager to prescribe you some opiates, whereas here in the Czech Republic they would have to go through quite a lot red tape to do that. Which, given the potential harm, seems like a good idea. (Even though we do have some problems with opiates not being used often enough. But compared to the US situation that's a great problem to have.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _> The industry of addiction treatment is haphazardly regulated, poorly understood and expanding at a rapid clip, bringing in $35 billion a year._

Why not focus on the root company and family actually getting rich off selling the damned opioids (Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers, respectively)?

I don't understand how this company and family haven't been sued into the ground yet.

<comment><USER7> The family are all Democrats.

That isn't the sole reason, but if you compare the "shadowy financier" tone of many stories about right-of-center families to the stories about opioids, you'll see that the "shadowiness" component of the reporting suddenly disappears.

<comment><USER8> This seems objectively false after even a brief cursory search and I'm curious as to why you think it has anything to do with this topic.

<comment><USER9> It's false, but fair to say the family is involved in both political parties. They seem to lean more towards the Democrat side, but that's to be expected given Obama's two terms.

The reason it matters is that political clout and general goodwill helps shield them from legislative action and judicial inquiry.

<comment><USER10> The original comment practically said "they are Democrats, and the media is liberal-controlled, so _obviously_ they get a free pass."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Heroin is a Schedule I (in the US) which means no medical benefit, and its a 20 year felony for distributing it. There is also the Federal Analogue Act, 21 U.S.C. § 813, which is supposed to group similar drugs in the same category. So, how do these companies get away with selling analogs of heroin? Shouldn't the people who work there and make money off these opioid drugs be arrested? Why haven't they?

<comment><USER12> I mean there obviously is a medical benefit to heroin, it's all just arbitrary politics based mostly on graft.

<comment><USER13> And it is used medically in many countries for things like end-stage cancer pain.

<comment><USER14> In the UK it's given to some women during childbirth (although it's coyly known as "diamorphine"). [https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a1026346/diamorphine](https://www.babycentre.co.uk/a1026346/diamorphine)

<comment><USER15> I really didn't know that is what it was. "Heroin" because it is dirty? "Diamorphine" because it is clean?

<comment><USER14> Because it is the "British Approved Name" of the substance apparently:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Names](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Names)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This one is interesting because it deals with a young short seller, Chris Drose, that caused a lot of share price decline in a stock I once held, likewise by writing an article for SeekingAlpha.

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/drug...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/drug- addiction-rehab.html)

This is the other stock he did that to, but his article was retracted... of course, only after the stock tanked huge, and continued to tank more afterwards. He must have made a fortune.

[https://seekingalpha.com/news/3189718-bearish-sa-article- que...](https://seekingalpha.com/news/3189718-bearish-sa-article-questions- chromadexs-value-cites-connection-stock-promoter-shares-slump-42)

I am amazed by how effective that is, and how he was able to get away with that.

<comment><USER17> Investors that investigate companies, identify hidden problems and report on them to the public help enable more accurate price discovery. This wouldn't happen at all if they couldn't trade against it.

For instance, I recall a story where a hedge fund sent PIs to determine that a factory reported running was actually closed down. They can't just trade against that info - it also has to be made public for them to realize gains. I can't imagine how you'd consider activity like this "getting away with it", when the alternative is companies performing unscrupulous acts in secret.

<comment><USER16> I wasn't criticizing the act of short selling itself. I was criticizing the concept of an individual writing what amounts to a hit piece that was later retracted, and yet profiting off it despite the fact.

Or, in the first case, alleging that a company led to the death of an individual, when later the charge of murder was dropped.

It piqued my interest that in both cases, the meat of his allegations are at least highly ambiguous.

As someone whose job is not nearly as difficult as working with opioid addicts, it would be difficult to condemn such people without damning evidence.

That a person having respiratory issues might not be thought of as requiring hospitalization to me seems like something that could happen without negligence on the part of a rehab facility.

And the idea that rehab facilities are inherently motivated by greed when compared to cheaper outpatient programs based around prescriptions seems to infer malice when the obvious conclusion is that some people really believe that approach is superior. This claim is the type of thing that a competitor might believe but nobody else should.

<comment><USER18> Just because a murder charge was dropped, doesn't mean that a murder didn't happen. The justice system doesn't convict 100% of murderers.

This is illustrated in the quote

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

<comment><USER16> They charged the _company_ with murder, which is a first for the legal system. That concept barely makes sense. Who at the company was at fault, and why? The company itself is a legal fiction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> And now you have false allegations mounted against Kratom for the purpose of banning it. People were using Kratom to get themself off the heavy drugs with minimal side-effects. But we can't let all that money go to waste, instead they want only publicly available addiction remedy to go to expensive treatments and expensive drugs.

</comment><comment><USER20> I cannot understand why the Government is not acting against the pharmas profiting from this crisis. And why people are not revolting. There is a clear nexus between pharmas and doctors. Something should be done.

<comment><USER21> There are more people who are dealing with chronic pain who need opioid than people who are using them for "recreational" purposes.

<comment><USER22> I can't help but feel that these medications are being vastly over prescribed by doctors.

Why is this not a problem in other countries? Either the number of people suffering from chronic pain in the U.S is way higher (percentage wise) than in other countries (why?) or the doctors are prescribing extremely dangerous medicine as if it were candy.

<comment><USER23> From my experience there are two factors I can see:

Due to end user advertising the US a lot of people are tuned into taking drugs. It's just a part of life. I am 50 and people seem to be baffled when I tell them I don't any prescription drugs unless I have something acute. I see tons of people taking antibiotics and pain killers immediately when they have a problem. That starts from childhood on.

Doctors in the US are really quick prescribing hardcore drugs. I have had several occasions when I had an injury like a bruised and got a Cocktail of vicodine and muscle relaxers. They make you feel real good quickly and I can totally see how people can get addicted. In addition people who have withdrawal symptoms get cut off cold turkey and get no help. I guess that's even more so in low income populations that barely get any healthcare.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I have a lot of friends in the treatment business and some of the stories I've heard of unethical providers are absolutely shocking.

Ignoring the urine testing schemes, in the worse areas people will sometimes pay clients to relapse after they leave a program so that they can reenroll and they can bill insurance all over again.

Google AdWords for treatment became such a problem that Google stopped allowing them because unethical centers were basically killing people.

Don't even get me started on the altnernative "treatments" out there. In a town near me there is a place that will give you amino acid injections and claim that's all one needs to get clean.

It's obscene that this happens and unfortunately as a consumer it can be hard to separate the good from the bad if you are desperate for help.

<comment><USER25> I had a similar experience though the treatment providers were actually trying to work in the patient's best interest.

I had a family member who was in and out of treatment for a disorder and discharge was largely dictated by the insurance company against the recommendation of everyone else involved.

Without saying as much, the treatment providers strongly implied a quick relapse and return to the facility would ultimately be the best thing because it would reset the clock with insurance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I just don't see this issue the way others do. "Capitalism" or profit motive certainly is interacting problematically with the issue. But profiteers are not, per se, why we have an opiod epidemic to begin with. The roots of that look pretty complicated.

One of the roots is hopelessness. We need to pass universal basic healthcare and solve the affordable housing crisis to make headway on that.

Another is, frankly, the success of modern medicine. You can live for decades these days with debilitating conditions that would have just killed you decades ago. And this often means living with a lot of pain.

Figuring out how to not just improve lifespan but also quality of life is the answer to that. And it is no small ask. It is quite the tall order.

<comment><USER27> > _We need to pass universal basic healthcare and solve the affordable housing > crisis to make headway on that._

Just like them, you jump to your own conclusions.

<comment><USER26> _Just like them,_

Them? To whom are you comparing me?

 _you jump to your own conclusions._

I am not jumping to anything. I have spent a lot of years studying and contemplating certain problem spaces.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Somewhat recently I visited a webpage that referenced Gabor Maté's work, _In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction_ [0] - my local library had a copy. Dr. Maté spent decades working with the most hopeless of the residents of "the drug ghetto of Vancouver's Downtown Eastside".

[0] [https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=editions:4tpUFXvV_8s...](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=editions:4tpUFXvV_8sC)

Part I has some anecdotes from patients - virtually 100% of Dr. Maté's patients suffered from childhood trauma. Part II goes into the science of addiction. "'It may be said without hesitation that for man the most important stressors are emotional', wrote the pioneering Canadian stress researcher and physician Hans Selye."

I went to the science library to look up the reference - Dr. Selye discussed how he came to appreciate the general syndrome of being sick, and claimed to have originated the term 'stress' into the medical lexicon. I have to wonder why good science gets ignored, while garbage science [1] persists for decades?

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16020617](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16020617) (my comment from yesterday about bad science)

This theory of addiction basically matches my observations of my girlfriend's predicament. She had some childhood stress (won't get into here). After six months of my influence she was doing fine, then she got sucked into the mental health system. Her current drug treatment program costs $10,000/month, and is mostly a scam. They try real hard to be helpful, though - I think they want an 'A for Effort'.

Helping people to feel safe is most important intervention of all [2].

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15024780](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15024780) \- my comment from 134 days ago about the importance of helping people feel safe, and how drug rehab helps people feel like failures.

(minor edits)

Edit2: Dr. Maté's book tells of how one of his patients described heroin as 'a hug in a needle'... "Chapter 14: Through a Needle, a Warm, Soft Hug" [3]

[3] [https://books.google.com/books?id=Oew75Hp8XP4C&printsec=fron...](https://books.google.com/books?id=Oew75Hp8XP4C&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:4tpUFXvV_8sC&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP9tupu63YAhUp6oMKHQidD7YQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=hug%20in%20a%20needle&f=false) (pg 156)

</comment><comment><USER29> The thrust of this is that opiod manufacturers should be sanctioned, charged with crimes, etc. But don't we do that already with cocaine, meth, heroin, etc.? Why should going after the suppliers work for opiods when it failed for every other drug?

</comment><comment><USER30> The "lucrative" aspect of many of these businesses results because they register themselves as 501c3 orgs; yet they clearly operate for-profit enterprises, with active solicitation at jails and courtrooms.

This is AKA the body broker model. There was a discussion about it on HN not too long ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15024185](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15024185)

Report body brokers: [https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs- pdf/f13909.pdf](https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER31> The first story of the series about how a short-selling investor was able to uncover a potential murder case against a rehab company and profit from it is an interesting anecdote on how the same market incentives that we tend to blame so much on can also be a force for good.

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/drug...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/27/business/drug- addiction-rehab.html)

</comment><comment><USER32> I find it endlessly hilarious that nobody in the US is asking

WHY

Why are people taking drugs?

The country needs to do some serious soul searching. Won't happen though.

<comment><USER33> I've been reading Dreamland by Sam Quinones, which goes into detail and background of the past ~50 years or so about how we got into this situation. A large part of the WHY you're referring to I'll summarize as

1\. Pain being identified as a vital sign and hospitals/institutions new-found focus on tracking and treating pain

2\. Deceptive pharmaceutical marketing that painkillers are a be-all solution to pain and also non-addictive (Purdue/Sackler seem to be worst offenders here)

This lead to doctors prescribing opioid painkillers to many of middle-class americans who would likely have otherwise not come in contact with drug addiction. The book so far has been a really good read and also goes into detail around how heroin started spreading through the rust belt as well (feeding on the existing prescription addiction). I highly recommend it (about 65% through it right now).

<comment><USER32> Maybe one day instead of prescribing sleeping pills GPs in the US will try to find out why someone has trouble sleeping. It will even save money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> > Then, the new insurance laws in 2008 and 2010 transformed what had largely > been a government-funded and charitable-minded field into an enticing for- > profit business.

That's freaking discussing and yet another reason I refuse to pay for insurance. I'll take the fines.

</comment><comment><USER35> Capitalism is sinister like this.

It doesn't intentionally do it, because capitalism isn't a person, but when everything is monetized by our creative entrepreneurs, it grows; our problems being no exception.

Once someone makes money, they want more of it. Capitalism demands more of it. And we stretch every line of the law, even cross it, just to get more from where that came from.

Unfortunately one person suppressing their unethical behavior is inconsequential. If an opportunity exists, eventually someone will use it.

<comment><USER36> Actually the opposite. Government regulations outlaw cheap non-dangerous alternatives (like cannabis) and create a monopoly by granting patents to a single entity.

[https://qz.com/1125690/big-pharma-is-taking-advantage-of- pat...](https://qz.com/1125690/big-pharma-is-taking-advantage-of-patent-law- to-keep-oxycontin-from-ever-dying/)

[http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/outdated-treatments-and- dr...](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/outdated-treatments-and-drug-company- monopolies-make-opioid-epidemic-worse/article/2611739)

The solution is to make cannabis legal for everybody in every state for medical use and since it cannot be patented there will be many suppliers who compete with the quality and price just like it happens with almost everything that is not under very strict government regulation.

<comment><USER37> > _Actually the opposite. Government regulations..._

I'm from the Netherlands so you won't hear me disagree with the argument that criminalizing cannabis and drugs is not the solution[0].

Having said that, the typical undertone on HN of "regulation is bad by definition" really irks me. I can imagine that if the only perspective one has is a dysfunctional government, one might think that, but please take a look abroad and see how things work over there. Government regulations are a tool that can be used for good and bad.

[0] Also, in the US these laws are historically very much set up to target poor and black people (and I wish I had a clear picture of how things are in my own country regarding that, actually; I'm sure there's a few laws sneakily screwing over migrant workers or something), but I digress.

<comment><USER38> I've always observed that HN leans pro-regulation.

<comment><USER39> IMHO there is a strong slant in both directions. Even HN is not immune from the current political stratification in the US.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Puritanical drug policy in response to the anti-war and hippie movements on the 1960s has a lot to answer for and is a huge contributing factor to this current crisis.

\- Under Nixon, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 inexplicably made cannabis a Schedule 1 drug. Cocaine, by comparison, is Schedule 2.

\- Cannabis became harder to get and more expensive than both cocaine and opiate based drugs.

\- In 2016, a bill sailed through Congress and was signed into law by Obama with little discussion or concern. It was the result of pharma lobbyists. The bill made it nigh-on-impossible for the DEA to investigate and penalize drug companies of suspicious shipments of drugs [1].

An example of this is shipping NINE MILLION hydrocodone pills over a two year period to a single pharmacy in Kermit, WV with a population of 392 [2].

\- A large number of people get onto heroin after becoming addicted to prescription opiates [3], which seem to be dispensed far more frequently in the US than in other developed nations [4].

\- Not only does cannabis seem to reduce the rate of opiate addiction, it seems like it might help treat opiate addiction too [5].

I choose to be an optimist here. I see Trumpism as a desperate last gasp for a declining but increasingly militant religious conservative minority in the United States. As much as these short-term policy decisions hurt, I look forward to the day when Puritan ideals will no longer blindly dictate policy with no basis in fact whatsoever.

[1] [http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-pharma- bill-20...](http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-pharma- bill-20160728-snap-story.html)

[2] [https://qz.com/866771/drug-wholesalers-shipped-9-million- opi...](https://qz.com/866771/drug-wholesalers-shipped-9-million-opioid- painkillers-over-two-years-to-a-single-west-virginia-pharmacy/)

[3] [https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research- reports/rela...](https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research- reports/relationship-between-prescription-drug-heroin-abuse/prescription- opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use)

[4] [https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/americans-consume-almost- all...](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/americans-consume-almost-all-of-the- global-opioid-supply.html)

[5] [http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/17/health/addiction- cannabis-...](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/17/health/addiction-cannabis- harm-reduction/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER41> Marijuana should be legal. That it is a schedule 1 narcotic and that we put people in prison for decades and even life is immoral.

[https://www.dea.gov/druginfo/ds.shtml](https://www.dea.gov/druginfo/ds.shtml)

[http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/life-sentence- ma...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/life-sentence-marijuana- pot-prison-commuted/)

<comment><USER42> Interesting how legal opioids are fueling a national 'crisis' while illegal marijuana, though widely used, is not.

<comment><USER43> Hard to find a person/family devastated by marijuana use. At least devastated beyond what alcohol does.

<comment><USER44> It's not hard to find lives devastated by the illegality of it.

<comment><USER43> It is devastation by police and/or by trafficking mafia, not by marijuana itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> > Millions of people have fallen victim to drugs, painkiller abuse, > alcoholism, the rise of meth and the revival of heroin.

Through all this carnage somehow the left still fights for the legalization of the gateway drug marijuana. Of course not all weed users move towards harder drugs, but it opens the door to more lethal drugs once susceptible individuals become accustomed to the highs. I have personally seen friends from college smoke weed for a couple of years and then move to coke for the better highs. Less drugs, not more would be a good step

EDIT: Its extremely well documented that marijuana usage leads to increased vulnerability for addiction to other substances. One of many research links:

[https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research- reports/mari...](https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research- reports/marijuana/marijuana-gateway-drug)

<comment><USER46> That's true, but HN tends to be more liberal so you will be downvoted though.

<comment><USER47> It's not the fault of liberals that you believe quantifiably incorrect things, but it's a convenient idealogical scapegoat to get out of learning anything helpful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Paywalled.

</comment><comment><USER49> I am sure these problems with opiate addiction centers will be solved by going to a single payer system.</comment>


Sony sells its waterproof mp3 player inside a bottle of water  - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2014/02/11/sony-sells-waterproof-mp3-player-inside-bottle-water/ <comment><USER2> "Though the device itself was launched a while ago, Sony turned to Auckland- based ad agency DraftFCB to help market the product in New Zealand. And so they came up with the Bottled Walkman, which is sold from vending machines in public places such as gyms. Check out the demo video for yourself."

That's what's most interesting to me. Have we heard from anybody who's actually bought the player from a vending machine? This seems to me to be one of those cases where you don't actually need to do it to get the marketing value from it- all you need is to make a video of the idea. It's a more sophisticated form of "This Ad Was Banned!!"

I could be totally wrong, of course.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm saying I don't think Sony's actually selling their walkmans in bottles of water, they just made a video of the idea of it. Can anbody disconfirm this?

<comment><USER3> So you expect me to believe that a vending machine where I can buy a Coke for six quarters that I can also buy an MP3 player for 750 quarters? I am not buying it.

<comment><USER4> Some vending machines take credit cards now. Also, what year are you in? These cost $78 on amazon (312 quarters), not $187.50! :)

<comment><USER5> USPS has postal vending machines both in the office and a couple major supermarkets that eat bills up to $20. Same hardware the self-checkout machines use. Spits out $1 coins as change. So its merely four $20s, or so.

I've seen the same hardware spitting our arduinos and the like at hackerspaces. If you're worried about mechanical damage we have food vending machines at work that operate via locking sliding doors.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Gah can't believe I missed this!

They were in a vending machine at my gym last month! Apparently the promo was only for 30 days, but in that time they did sell a few (according to the guy that works there). I saw some guys wearing them (since the gym is above the swimming pool so you can look down) and it works without a smartphone. I'm pretty sure the water is drinkable as well.

Pretty bizarre that people had to put cash in to buy it though. I don't remember there being a Eftpos terminal at all.

Strange this just popped up today though, since I haven't seen any of these vending machines around in the last few weeks.

<comment><USER2> Cool, I think you're the first person I've heard from who's actually seen one! Are you in NZ?

<comment><USER6> Correct from Auckland. The advertising company DraftFCB is actually on the other end of the street where I work as well. I told the staff at the gym last night about how this had blown up in the news and they were very happy that they were 'beta testers' for this marketing experiment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'll hand it to Sony, they can come up with some sweet marketing campaigns.

On a side note, do a lot of people really listen to music while swimming? In college I used to do 30 minutes of laps in the pool a couple times a week. I liked doing it precisely because you couldn't listen to music and you'd have to focus on keeping good form. It was just you and the water.

<comment><USER8> Waterproof listening devices have always been wishful thinking, but never actually implemented correctly nor have had the demand properly assessed (lots of people _think_ they want them, but I'm not sure if they truly do)

Challenges I see:

\- Cords get tangled really easily due to the nature of the sport (Solution - make them completely in ear)

\- Bulkiness slows you down or at least presents issues when they fall out (see solution 1)

\- There is no easy way to control volume or change the song (solution - perhaps use something in your mouth to "chew" on to change these parameters maybe?)

Swimming (especially the 3-4k I do almost daily) can be painfully dull, so the demand is sort of there, but it seems the amount of tech involved far outweighs the presumed benefit (and therefore demand).

<comment><USER9> I just keep a pair of waterproof headphones permanently attached to my swim goggles and keep it in my gym stuff. It's not nearly as big a hassle as you think - just wrap it up tightly once and you have no cords dangling or anything while you swim.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Impactful packaging, but seems gimmicky. Also, think about it from a supply chain perspective: water is _heavy_. Conservatively, assume the mp3 player in normal packaging is about a pound. 16oz of water is going to double that. And distribution channels for consumables is completely different from electronics. I can't imagine this is going to be widespread.

<comment><USER2> I can't imagine it needs to be; they just need people to watch the video and share the headlines on major news sites, Reddit, HN, etc. Suddenly the idea of Sony's waterproof walkman is in everybody's minds, almost free of charge. Most people will probably buy it online or from their favourite retail store.

<comment><USER11> After a bunch of "sports players" which are not as waterproof as I'd like, the marketing is working on me. Disappointment is the norm in this niche.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Is this what they call "immersive marketing"?

<comment><USER13> Whoever came up with this is still wet behind the ears.

<comment><USER12> The marketing campaign, or my pun?

[edit @snowman41: Yes I know "wet behind the ears" is another pun. I was asking whether "whoever came up with this" refers to the campaign or my comment.]

<comment><USER13> It's all wet.

<comment><USER12> Fair enough. I just couldn't help myself.

Gotta like a good pun!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Really cool idea, although a friend pointed out that a very similar idea has already been done for watches: [http://www.thedieline.com/blog/2013/6/13/festina-watches- div...](http://www.thedieline.com/blog/2013/6/13/festina-watches-divers-watch- in-water-packaging.html)

</comment><comment><USER15> Why doesn't this have the same legal issues as Kinder Eggs? Maybe the watch in bottled water also can't be sold in the US?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_Surprise)

<comment><USER16> Thats interesting, I never heard of that. It sounds like it would technically apply to fortune cookies too.

<comment><USER17> Paper is edible; compared to small plastic toys it's practically delectable. As long as the ink is safe for consumption then there seems little to object about.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> josh-wrale (satire)... "Warning: plastic in Walkman contains lead in California"

... I wouldn't drink the water.

</comment><comment><USER18> The water is so the rootkits grow better.

(In other words, I don't buy Sony products any more, since they insisted upon rootkitting their customers' computers some years ago.)

</comment><comment><USER19> Looks like it's become a recurring theme at Sony. They had kept Xperia Z demo phones and tablets under running tap water, at their outlets in Bangalore.

<comment><USER20> In Berlin last year, you could win a Sony phone by diving into a tank of water and fetch one from the ground. If it was a real one, you could keep it :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> What an excellent concept. Reminded me of the '80s(?) when the waterproof Timex (or was it Casio?) was displayed in fishtanks - you immediately knew what the product was capable of, as well as it becoming one of those "guess what I saw earlier" things.

<comment><USER13> There were (are?) watches sold in water-filled containers as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm a Sony hardware fan and I would have bought this device in a heartbeat if it didn't have such awful battery life. It would be perfect on my bike rides but I ride all day, not less than an hour.

Happily I have a Sony mp3 player with 30 hours from a single charge.

<comment><USER23> It has 7 to 8 hours of battery life, not 1 hour.

edit: According to the tech specs it will get a 1 hour charge after the first 3 minutes of charging.

I have the previous water-resistant model and this seems about right.

<comment><USER22> I think I might have been fooled by the "3 minute charge, 1 hour of playback" claim. it does indeed also claim 7 hours.

That has made me happy, one more bit of Sony kit on the way :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I looked at getting one of these for the holidays, but it seems they're not held firmly into your ears during swimming sessions, according to reviews. Nice marketing though.

</comment><comment><USER25> A few weeks ago my mate grabbed his Sony smartphone (I cannot recall the actual model since I'm clueless about smartphones), started recording a video, then threw it in the dog's water bowl. Great ten second video, including distorted sound.

Water ? lame. What about vodka? At times like this I will side with General Ripper from _Dr Strangelove_. He never drank water, because the commies were poisoning it to pacify the West.

<comment><USER26> I used to drop my Motorola Defy into friends alcoholic drinks while out as a party trick and ice breaker (literally?). Worked fine :)

<comment><USER25> Whereas about a dozen years ago I accidentally dropped my girlfriend's phone in a glass of coke... it was fucked.

It's great technology has advanced so much we can do underwater selfies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Gimmicky - yes.

But the larger question is whether the water is actually potable, it being in vending machines after all!

</comment><comment><USER28> Reminds of the famous story about a Sony exec throwing a device in a fish tank and seeing bubbles.

<comment><USER29> Wasn't that steve jobs? At least the version I heard was steve jobs with an iPod prototype (the bubbles proved there was empty space so the ipod could be smaller)

<comment><USER30> It's an urban legend.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Unless that's a different mp3 player from the one I'm thinking about, it got pretty bad reviews. It might be waterproof, but most reviewers said that once water gets in your ear you can't really hear anything.

</comment><comment><USER32> What about the charger, warranty card, manual, etc? There is space at the top of the bottle masked by a silver band which might contain something, but surprised if you could get the charger in there.

</comment><comment><USER33> If you bought this at a gym, would you drink the water that it came in?

<comment><USER34> Sure. Why not?

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Oh for fuck's sake, it's not even a product, it's an ad for an ad agency. What a waste of time.

But apparently HN commenters are not immune to being fooled...

<comment> Tuna-Fish You do realize that a lot of the HN crowd is actually much more interested in purchasing ads from ad agencies than they are in purchasing products, right? An ad for an ad agency that is fresh and innovative is very much relevant.

<comment><USER35> In that case we may as well post every article on [http://springwise.com/](http://springwise.com/) to HN. I thought people here were a bit more hard-nosed.

<comment><USER36> Or we might just use our collective discretion, selecting interesting examples every now and again as we please?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I guess it worked. Waterproof MP3 players have been around for a decade, but the average consumer probably doesn't know that.

</comment><comment><USER38> Definitely going to grab a lot of attention, but a bad idea other than that. Too costly and impractical.

</comment><comment><USER39> How do they keep bacteria from growing on it inside the water?

<comment><USER40> Add some chlorine to the water.

<comment><USER41> Maybe. I'm not sure they would need to, the player isn't going to have much in the way of nutrients on it.

<comment><USER40> You'd be surprised by just how little bacteria needs to grow.

<comment><USER42> Most bacteria are little.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Interesting marketing tactic. Is that water drinkable?

<comment><USER44> If it weren't they would be risking severe lawsuits for selling it from vending machines alongside Coke etc.

<comment><USER45> Actually, it's a _really_ interesting question.

The walkman needs to be safe for use in contact with the skin.

The water needs to be drinkable. Packaging directives look at things like phthalates in the bottle... but don't consider contents within the bottle which aren't part of the beverage or beverage serving mechanism.

So... they can, legally, pretty much do whatever the hell they want, as the Mp3 player does not need to be consumable, the water and bottle will be quantified as safe by themselves, and the thing as a whole (bottle + water) is just treated as packaging, so doesn't need to be consumable.

All in all it's the kind of thing that isn't quite covered by product safety standards, as it's so irregular.

<comment><USER46> Wouldn't this be the same regulations that cover the "secret toy surprise" inside CrackerJacks? Or cereal boxes?

<comment> Tuna-Fish Most of the world doesn't have those regulations. Or, in other words, cue the surprise of all the Europeans when they realize that Kinder eggs are illegal in the US.

<comment><USER47> The 'which of these is illegal in the US?' meme juxtaposing a gun and a Kinder Surprise was rather popular a while back. We picture Americans trying to swallow the eggs whole and choking, but playing with guns safely and responsibly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I want one!

</comment><comment><USER49> Perfect idea for me!

</comment><comment><USER50> Fuck sony, from that blog I just found out about fan-made Robocop remake: [http://ourrobocopremake.com/](http://ourrobocopremake.com/)

How could I miss that?</comment>


Ask HN: How do you deal with "database debt" (old data) - <AUTHOR>

tl;dr - how to efficiently deal with mass quantities of temporary data...
Theres been a lot of talk lately about technical debt and such. Our product deals with online meetings and we create a lot of temporary data, that we keep around for 3-6 months, sometimes 1 year to be safe.
Over time a lot of temporary data gets created in our database. We run a cleaner each night to search and find old data and delete it. Its getting expensive (cpu and disk-wise) because first we need to go through and navigate all the tables to identify what can be deleted, then, running the deletes in mass quantities).
Its getting to the point where the cleaner has to run all night and I'm still not sure if we're keeping up with the data were creating. As we grow internationally our off-peak hours become shorter... so it has less time to run. Lately I need to keep an eye on the cleaner frequently so doesn't put too much load on the master db as traffic starts ramping up the following day.
I'm curious how other companies deal with this issue, if at all. Do large companies just ignore that, and just keep adding disks? As our product grows and the db relationships get more complex, its becoming a real chore to keep adding to the logic of the cleaner.
Tim Vyew.com <comment><USER2> When you say that you keep this temporary data around for 3-6 months, do you have a requirement that it be kept in the database for 3-6 months or can you keep backups and fill requests for old data from them? That can reduce the size of your tables so your cleaner has less data to process.

If you know that certain tables are subject to this record-keeping requirement, why not add a created_timestamp field to each table you need to keep around? That way, your "cleaner" logic is as simple as "delete * from table where created_timestamp before (six months ago)" with the database- specific date functions and appropriate table name.</comment>


Cornavirus: The Worst Case Scenario - <AUTHOR> https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/coronavirus-the-worst-case-scenario/ <comment><USER2> I'm not surprised that most of the news sources are getting this wrong ... they don't care ... but:

Technically:

* The virus belongs to a large family of viruses, and they are all "Coronaviruses";

* This particular virus is called SARS-CoV-2;

* "Covid-19" is the name of the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2.

Probably no one here cares either, but I thought it was interesting.

For that, the International Committee on Taxonomy of Viruses has designated the virus itself with the even more memorable title of "SARS-CoV-2".</comment>


Ask PG: Add Consumer-friendly Security to "Startup Ideas we'd like to fund" - <AUTHOR>

pg,<p>Would you consider adding "Consumer-friendly security and anti-surveillance startups" to ideas that YC would like to fund. <comment><USER2> YC has already funded some consumer oriented security startups, one already deals with surveilance issues, did you have anything specific in mind?

<comment><AUTHOR> Specifically, startups that democratize security.

What are the current YC security startups and the focus of each?

<comment><USER2> I can think of quite a few companies that have all made security easier for the masses, maybe 10 or so off the top of my head and they're easily found with the search engine of your choice (FYI: I endorse DDG)

My company (CryptoSeal) works on cloud security, we try to make encryption easier to use. To be on direct point, We have a couple products that make VPNs easy.

If you're looking for something specific I'd be happy to help you find it :)</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Made a URL shortener for fun - <AUTHOR> http://leg.gy/

<comment><AUTHOR> The world may not need another url shortener, but I was looking for a fun little project and this fit the bill. An api is in the works, and then I'll add stats and user accounts to manage links etc.

</comment><comment><USER2> Your about page is missing, [http://leg.gy/about.html](http://leg.gy/about.html)

<comment><USER3> Its there. [http://leg.gy/about](http://leg.gy/about)</comment></comment>


Tumblr wins because it's twice as fast - <AUTHOR> http://blog.yottaa.com/2010/09/the-web-performance-impact-tumblr-leaves-competition-in-the-dust/

<comment><USER2> This is a terrible article.

The bald assertion that Tumblr is more successful than Posterous because it is faster is repeated about a half dozen times during the piece but no evidence is ever advanced to prove this point.

Without further data, at best, we're talking a correlation. I could similarly argue that dropping the 'e' in Tumblr is a 'big reason' Tumblr is more successful than Posterous (which, please note, contains an 'e'!).

<comment><USER3> Does a fast site help improve business success(comparing to a slower site similar in functionality)? Of course it does. Does performance play a role? It does. Is it the only reason? No.

The article does not pinpoint the success or failure of a business into a single reason. The article didn't claim "performance is The reason" that Tumblr is successful. It says "performance is most likely one of the key factors".

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I don't know about this... I use tumblr and it usually seems pretty slow to me... normally more than the 3sec load time they quote... haven't tried posterous yet....

<comment><USER3> Good point. Tumblr is a lot faster than Posterous. However, it is only at about 50 percentile comparing to other sites over the Internet while Posterous is below average - in other words, Tumblr's performance is only about average. Both have lots to be improved.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It is really a good article. We have more and more sites on the internet but it seems become more and more slow because our web become too "complex".

</comment><comment><USER6> Tumblr would be even faster if their Javascript was a bit lighter. They use Prototype and various unneeded scripts.

<comment><USER7> Yes, but that's only loaded once and then cached, so it's not such a big deal.

<comment><USER3> no, actually it does matter. Browser caching is not reliable and only covers around 20% to 25% of requests (according to GoogleMaps JS caching behavior stats). So it matters quite a bit.

<comment><USER7> Really? That's new to me.

<comment><USER8> [http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2007/01/04/performance- research-...](http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2007/01/04/performance-research- part-2/)

Towards the end of the article

>> Suprising Results

40-60% of Yahoo!'s users have an empty cache experience and ~20% of all page views are done with an empty cache. To my knowledge, there's no other research that shows this kind of information...

<<

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Does web performance matter? For Tumblr and other light blogging service providers, clearly it does and it made a big difference. A recent New York Times article pointed out that "Tumblr Leaves Posterous In the Dust". Both are leading light blogging service providers. However, Tumblr has out-grown Posterous significantly over the last year. Why? it looks like that one big reason is that Tumblr has been twice as fast as Posterous.</comment>


Isn't Light Table very similar to the Iguana Translator? - <AUTHOR>

Open Source?  Yes But still, haven't a lot of the concepts already been done in Iguana? -- http://www.interfaceware.com/iguana_translator.html<p>Both seem pretty awesome, but for the hype of re-inventing the IDE that Light Table is getting, aren't they just doing the same as Iguana? <comment><AUTHOR> Hmm, link didn't work. <http://www.interfaceware.com/iguana_translator.html>

Seriously though, realtime execution = Live Annotations...</comment>


The Bkd Tree: A Dynamic Disk Optimized BSP Tree - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@nickgerleman/the-bkd-tree-da19cf9493fb <comment><USER2> I wonder how it performs compared to a VP tree. Yes, the VP tree has all the problems of the KD tree, i.e. it becomes unbalanced when inserting, but most fast implementations use linear search in leaf nodes instead of creating a full tree, and splitting a leaf once it exceeds its max size (which is normally around 100-1000) usually gives a pretty good vantage point. I guess the same can be done on a KD tree. In my experiments, the VP tree was the fastest tree for range queries when you can't establish a total order over your data.

<comment><USER3> VP trees are interesting (previously discussed here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3304685](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3304685)), and there is also the MVP variant (multi vantage point trees -- [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVP_tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MVP_tree)):

Indexing Large Metric Spaces For Similarity Search Queries [http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.43....](http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.43.7492&rep=rep1&type=pdf)</comment></comment>