Ask HN: Coping with Loneliness - <AUTHOR> Given the like natures of the people frequenting this board, I would imagine that I'm not alone (hah) when dealing with loneliness.
I've, over the past few years, grown more and more lonely with very little outside contact. My job does not interact with others much, topping out at the same few co-workers day in and day out.
I've only ever had a small group of friends, which has grown even more thread-bare with age.
Besides "go meet people" (how?), how do the fine people of HN deal with loneliness? Especially in the case your quite introverted? I like being alone, just not all the time, and not to the point of despairing loneliness.
I reach out, for fear that it envelops me. <comment><USER2> I've been dealing with just this issue. I, too, am an introvert and require time alone after socializing to 'recharge.' I had a fairly intense bout of depression recently, I realized that it was in part due to do loneliness. So I did some introspection and talked things over with a trusted advisor.

So some things to consider in no particular order:

Shame about being lonely drives people to feel more lonely. Don't let that trap engulf you.

Take steps to explore your psyche and see if the roots of your loneliness are based in issues like self-esteem. Don't take this lightly. It's easy to dismiss, but if those forces are present in your life, they'll be very difficult to see clearly.

Are you religious? Go to church (or sangha or whatever). Got an addiction? Go to a 12 step group meeting. Like board games? Find folks that like to play and hang out with them. Seek out opportunities to interact with people preferably in the flesh, but online can work too.

Get a therapist. Or a spiritual guide. Whatever, as long as they understand how the human psyche works, and that you're there to work. If that suits you.

Don't underestimate loneliness. There's a reason why our most feared punishment is isolating people. Because it's terrible.

Learn to relish solitude. Don't let an idea about solitude trick you into thinking that being alone is good.

Humans are social animals. Not being part of the herd represents an existential threat to us. This is a major cause of suffering in our species.

Humans are solitary animals. Being part of the herd can be a major stressor for us. This is a major cause of suffering in our species.

Best of luck.

<comment><USER3> > Are you religious? Go to church (or sangha or whatever). Got an addiction? > Go to a 12 step group meeting.

That escalated quickly!

> Like board games? Find folks that like to play and hang out with them.

This one is definitely good advice. Introverts find it easier to mix with fellow introverts. I speak from experience. I can trace an awful lot of friends back to various magic the gathering sessions or lan parties

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Go to Bangkok. Find a Starbucks. Order your drink of choice. Within 30 minutes you will be chatted up by a girl. Enjoy! p.s. This happened to me back in 2003. We were together for three years. Got addicted to the lifestyle in Thailand - eating out with friends every night, going out to the islands, beaches, diving, golf, malls etc. I worked remotely. My g/f had a lot of friends too. It was a lot of fun. Beats eating dinner alone in front of the TV - which was my life before going there. Seriously though, if you want to change your life go to Thailand.

<comment><USER5> I was in Thailand for 3+ months (Jan to April) and worked in coffee shops and co-working spaces M-F usually 10-5 and never was approached by a girl at a coffee shop. Was my first time outside North America. I had good success dating there on Tinder though! I'd actually get daily matches there, where back in the US I get none. The only issue I had was sometimes the girl I met could type English well, but had trouble with speaking so it was hard to have a convo past hello and how are you when we met in person.

Overall, I've never been to a place where it was easier to meet new people and make new friends. I liked Chiang Mai more than Bangkok, but they're definitely two of my favorite cities ever. Koh Lanta is also a paradise.

I'm planning to go back in January again. The lifestyle there is perfect for me at this point in my life (28 year old web developer).

Some pics from my trip: [https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B45Al_n9xsrna25kZ0RFdXBOb0...](https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B45Al_n9xsrna25kZ0RFdXBOb0k)

<comment><USER6> Thailand's a notoriously conservative country despite its international reputation.

Far more likely to get chatted up in the West than there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I find going back to nature every now and then is a nice band-aid on my solitude wound. I'm still alone, mind you, but natured is filled with amazing things you can look at, focus on.

Trekking has become a major part of my life in the recent years. It allowed me to discover myself in more details, how my mind works. I also briefly met people along the way, and slowly realised that their mind worked the same kind of way. They were travelling alone too, for most of them. Yet we were instantly friends. Didn't keep in touch, because that's life, but it's alright.

Try this: take a weekend for yourself, away from civilisation. Take a tent, go get lost in the woods (well, not actually lost), spend the night. Forget about your phone, your emails. Just tell one trustworthy person where you go, roughly, just in case.

Take that time look at the trees, the insects, the clouds, the Earth. Maybe you'll see a fox, maybe fireflies, maybe you'll only hear birds.

And if you're not willing to spend a night just yet, then wake up early, and be there at sunrise. Have a breakfast, have a lunch. Walk, or not, whatever works for you, but just take your time.

Then stop for a moment. Anchor yourself to the ground. Why not walk barefoot? Imagine your feet are rooted deep down into the earth, all the way down to the burning core. Feel the wind on your skin, hear the birds in the distance, see the trees shiver in the wind, enjoy the silence.

I'm afraid I haven't yet found a cure for loneliness myself. But this above, my friend, is what makes my life worth living!

Good luck, you'll see better days :)

</comment><comment><USER8> Don't cope with it - fix the problem. Emotions are designed to tell you important facts about the word. Pain tells you that there's ongoing physical harm that you ought to avoid, anger tells you that you're in an appropriate position to start or threaten to start a physical fight, grief tells you that you temporarily need to get the support of the tribe as you adjust to your loss, and so forth.

What loneliness tells you is that you haven't gotten the sort of stimuli you'd expect out of having a position in a social group. Experiencing it sucks because this is the sort of thing that is extraordinarily dangerous.

So, how do you get "I am part of a larger group that accepts me" signals? Go and do stuff. If you're not naturally inclined to stay on top of things, get organized about it. Texting/IMing your friends/acquaintances is a good choice. Volunteering somewhere could also help. Regular hobbies are great - I do social dancing. Swipe on a few Tinder profiles and see if you can strike up a conversation. It really doesn't matter _what_ you do, so long as you use your planning faculties and organization to compensate for your lack of socialization drive.

<comment><USER9> >Swipe on a few Tinder profiles and see if you can strike up a conversation.

I would strongly advice against that. Research has shown that the use of Tinder decreases the self-worthyness of in particular male users.

<comment> J-dawg I strongly agree with this. Internet dating generally has become a toxic experience for men. It definitely increased my feelings of loneliness.

Anyone who is already lonely or lacking self-esteem should stay well away.

<comment> le-mark I'm not familiar with the current generation of dating apps, but I met my wife on plentyoffish a few years ago. I also was a lonely introvert and provide my experience as an example to the OP:

I was in a very similar situation to the OP, an introvert who's career and interest led to a state of near constant solitude. I lived this way for over 10 years. I had a weekly routine; weekend was going to the store and househould maintenance, weekdays were going to work and fiddling with side projects after work. I would visit family every few months. But otherwise I was entirely alone. I feel that I am a true introvert, and relished it for few years, but it ground on me. Later I realized that I could die and no one would know for weeks. This was profoundly saddening to me.

I used online dating off and on for years with no success, and a lot of frustration as the parent indicates. It can be crushing to message 20 women and get zero responses. Over the years I worked on tweaking a message (a/b testing essentially) to see what would get responses, got some flattering photos to use. Then after I started getting some responses, and going on a few dates, still nothing. At one point I gave up for good, decided I was asexual and unlovable, and resolved to live out my life alone.

I won't say I was ever depressed, I do have a melancholy disposition. I experienced one episode of real depression for maybe a day, it was a dark pit, I couldn't stand to live. Luckily it only lasted a day, and never returned. That episode showed me how bad depression can really be. Not a constant state of being down or blue, but grinding darkness that makes your own skin unbearable. It was terrifying.

What drove me out of all this was series of illnesses with my parents. I had always imagined I'd get married have kids, but had zero success dating. I realized if I ever had kids, they wouldn't know my parents if I didn't act. So I got back on the horse, systematically used plentyoffish to date a lot (edit; well, less than 10 so not a lot) of girls and eventually met my wife and we have two kids.

Nowadays, I'm happier than I've ever been, but things aren't perfect. Being married is hard, particularly since my wife and I were both older when we met and "set in our ways". She's not the easiest person to live and neither am I. Our kids are a joy though. I get zero alone time now, which also grates on me. I REALLY need it, and my spouse is not sympathetic.

My wife says about herself "I was lonely wierdo, until I met you, now I'm not lonely, just wierd", which also applies to me, which amuses us.

Anyway all that's my .02, you're not alone, and that was my path.

<comment> J-dawg Thanks for sharing your story, it was nice to read. It's good to have a counter-example to prove that people can and do meet their spouses online.

I tried online dating about 7 years ago and found it ok, had a few interesting dates but nothing special. I then met my wife (offline) who I thought was my soulmate.

After a few years she left me, and I decided to try online dating again. It feels very different. The women have this incredible sense of entitlement. I don't really blame them, apparently they receive so many messages that it's impossible to reply to them all. It's common to see something like: "If you're just going to say 'hi' don't bother messaging me.", but you can also waste a lot of time writing thoughtful opening messages that just get ignored. It's a painful daily reminder of exactly where you fit in the pecking order, which is why I wouldn't recommend it to someone who is already lonely.

It's hard to pin down exactly what has changed in between the 2 times I tried online dating. But I don't remember it being such a challenge just to get someone to reply to me.

<comment><USER9> I would even add that online dating has substantially led to a decline of the male 'market value'. Somehow all my friends who got to know their girlfriends offline made in my view better choices than those who meet online. But maybe it is also based on their character, ie that they are more extroverted and willing to go for someone if they see someone they like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you're anywhere near Regina, Canada, my name is Greg and my email is in my profile. I'll take you out and introduce you to the finest people I know.

That aside, you've received some excellent advice in this thread. I won't reiterate any of it. Instead, I just want to say that you're very brave to come here and make a post like that.

I wish you the absolute best. Feel free to email me if I can be of any help.

<comment><USER3> There should be an app that's like tinder for meeting other like minded people. Like when you move to Regina, Canada and see that there's an awesome guy called Greg who will introduce you to cool people

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Two more ideas from me:

1) Toastmasters. This is like alcoholics anonymous for people that are addicted to shyness. And very likely there will be some people there that are even more quiet and introverted than you are.

2) Social dancing. I'm guessing you are male, in which case you will be in high demand. Even if you are overweight & ugly as sin, if you can keep a beat then the girls are gonna want some. If you are as intelligent as you sound then this is also a big plus: the smart people end up being the best dancers. And it's not about talking or being interesting, it's about the mechanics of space and time (physics and music). I would recommend tango: this is where all the real nerds end up.

Getting over the fear is not going to happen on its own. Instead I would suggest finding something where you are more excited than afraid.

<comment><AUTHOR> It seems like dancing is a super popular suggestion.

I keep saying to myself that I'd be no good and it'd be embarassing, not to mention I'm not (never have been) a "dancer" but I'm thinking this swarm intellect might have a point... And perhaps I should seriously consider signing up for a beginner dance class.

Any reason why Tango is where the nerds end up?

<comment><USER12> Here's ~5 years tango dancer @ HN :) From where I am now tango actually seems an unnatural choice for nerds. Of all the social dances tango is one of the most intimate in terms of personal space, which makes any nerd nervous and clumsy. On the other hand, it seems like one of the least physically demanding - check out Buenos-Aires 70+ grandpas on YouTube. I think it is a combination of two: crave for intimacy plus actual ability to imagine oneself as a hero of those videoclips, as opposed to fit and dexterous lads from swing and boogie- woogie, or half-naked machos from salsa, kizomba and bachata :)

There is also a point of general availability. When you check out your typical dance studio around the corner, there are salsa, hustle, swing and tango. Of those aforementioned tango seems most promising from romantic point of view.

<comment><USER11> Just to widen the definition of nerd a little: doctors, engineers, artists, scientists, architects... There seems to be alot of deeply intelligent & smart people in Tango.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm an introvert. There's a saying, "You're never alone with a good book." For me, that's certainly the case. If you're not a bookworm, try audiobooks.

Also, I love dogs (probably more than most people). They're loyal, do not judge (unless you have a treat), and live in the moment - what more could one ask for?:) Animals can provide a lot of companionship.

<comment><AUTHOR> My book shelves are overflowing :)

I agree, never alone with a good book. But, having spent weeks at a time reading 5+ hours a day, it can become lonely in itself.

A doggo might be a good choice

<comment><USER14> Friends & I 'invented' unsociable socializing. At the weekend we'd sometimes meet in a coffeeshop, bring our books and just read. Stopping occasionally for a chat & refilling the coffee, but the main focus was reading.

Was perfect way to spend an afternoon without draining too much energy.

<comment><AUTHOR> That sounds absolutely wonderful actually

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> You are wise to seek out advise on this. Loneliness is a terrible thing that can have very serious consequences like depression. Lot of comments here are suggesting activities like dancing etc. There is no harm in doing these activities but you have to do them because they interest you and you enjoy doing them. If you try to do things just to meet people, you will surely meet people but they will not become your friends because you have different interests/ personalities and have less in common with them. Do things that you like (sports, music, video games etc.) and seek out people who do those things. You will make friends more easily. Also, do not disregard friends that you made in school/college. They can be lifelong friends. If you have lost contact with them, seek out contact again. If you are religious, go to your church/temple/mosque. Sense of community, belonging and socialization are some of the biggest benefits of religion. It is likely to alleviate loneliness.

</comment><comment><USER16> I am extremely introverted, but one of the social activities I've found that actually DOESN'T drain me is going to game nights at my local game stores. Most stores have something going on every night, ranging from standard issue board games to RPGs to miniatures tabletop games. It's amazingly easy to make friends when you're all engrossed in whatever setting you're gaming in!

<comment><USER17> Do these types of events have spectator focused areas? Eg, I'm a bit of a gamer _(not much these days)_ , but frankly tabletop/etc doesn't really interest me. Despite that, the idea of going and watching the crowd, almost like a coffee shop, sounds really enjoyable.

Like a coffee shop with the added bonus of everyone having similar interests. Who knows, the wife and I may make some friends too, or take part.

However, I'm asking because I don't want to go there and feel obligated to partake in some event/thing. Lowkey with benefits is what interests me. Thoughts?

<comment><USER16> Usually there isn't a spectator area per se, but spectators are always welcome. Most people are very excited to answer questions about their game of choice, strategy, what to buy to get in to the game, etc. Trust me, I'm well aware of how intimidating it is to walk in somewhere you haven't been before for a game you may not have played before, but once you mention you're new and interested, you'll be amazed at how welcome most people will make you feel. Most game stores also have demo sets of whatever game you're watching so you can test drive before you buy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I've been struggling to begin rehabilitating and changing my home environment.

I went through hell with a series of offensively noisy and aggressively inconsiderate neighbors. So, I avoided home. And I didn't invite people over. And, as the months wore into years, my home took on aspects of neglect.

I was "trapped" at first by some circumstances I didn't deal with well. Then more thoroughly by the self-reinforcing nature of this decline.

Basically, if I'm not comfortable at home, I do not have people over. I lose a big part of my control over my interactions as well as my ability to reciprocate.

Further, since these circumstances stress me so, I don't feel well about myself -- including my inability to more effectively deal with the situation -- and this also causes me to engage less.

And as this is self-reinforcing, so is the attendant, resultant loneliness.

When I do get away from it, I enjoy interacting with people and seem to do reasonably well at it. Well, the "cool" people are still too self-absorbed to accept me. Fuck them -- a lesson too long in learning.

I'm not saying I have "the answer." But my intuition, of many years now, has not changed: I need to get the hell out of here and to somewhere I'm simply more happy and at peace with myself.

Otherwise, half my mind is always at least subconsciously worrying about the monster behind the door. Like neighbors with sub-woofers who would rattle my windows for hours on end.

<comment><USER19> That's an awful spiral. Correct me if I've misunderstood, but this is caused by bad neighbours? If this is really the root, take the leap and move out! Perhaps you can try flat-sharing next.

I live in a rural town, which I love (courtesy to introversion) but sometimes it can get lonely, and yes, that self-reinforcing spiral then happens. I try to go to tech events in big cities at least once a month so I'm reminded that I 'belong' to this community, even though most of the time I don't interact very much. (And that's ok too, be comfortable with who you are! :)) Seems to be working, that and monthly meetups with old friends and nurturing an appreciation of my own company. This is just me though - try different things so that you can find which suit you best. Chin up!

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Some options that I have tried and have helped:

\- Try Meetup.com. Endless options there. Don't be afraid to be awkward. Read about social skills and practice them.

\- Be a better friend and initiate contact with people you know - don't wait for them.

\- Also make a list of all people/friends you know local or non-local. Refer to that list and keep in touch. This is harder than it looks but is important. I was surprised how many folks I had a good connection with but did a sucky job of keeping in touch with.

\- Attend workshops, classes etc where you have the chance to meet others in a like minded setting. Especially overnight ones. There are always group events happening in urban environments. Seek them out.

\- This is going to sound dumb - but try to interact with people via social networks. It teaches you a bit of initiative and also leads to in person quality time in some cases. But be careful that you don't get swallowed by it.

\- Have something interesting at your home - like board games, gaming , good list of movies to watch. That way you can feel comfortable inviting people over to hang out at your place and have a good time. It feels nice to say "I have a really cool board game - why don't you guys come over and let's have some fun, along with some beer/drinks"

\- Be interesting - if you are passionate about 1 or more interesting topics outside work, and talk about it with folks you meet, they will remember you. It could be AI, self-improvement, meditation/mindfulness, running, fitness, music and so on. But learn to talk about your passion intelligently. It leaves a mark.

<comment><AUTHOR> Solid advice, thanks.

As for some of your suggestions, it's not that I have a laundry list of out- of-touch friends. I keep in touch with every one of my good friends from High School and College. The problem is, that list is about | | <\- that big. Also, I removed myself from all social networks (and have read a number of articles linking FB usage with depression, which I dont need more of).

Thank-you.

<comment><USER9> > Also, I removed myself from all social networks

Problematic. For many people these are the only ways they are organizing activities together. It's all about how you use them...

<comment><USER21> As much as HN loves to hate on Facebook, it has its uses. I can't imagine it not hurting OP's chances at meeting new people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Talk about your loneliness with anonymous strangers in the chatrooms. Reiterate your pain points to them. Never reveal your identity, never meet them.

You are not looking to make a connection.

The goal is to get bored with what ails you. After telling about why you feel bad 20 times to 20 different people your brain gets bored with this narrative. Then it moves on to more interesting things and you stop feeling bad.

This strategy helped me get over post rejection loneliness in few short months.

Remember, loneliness is not being alone. It's feeling bad about it.

<comment> nils-m-holm > Remember, loneliness is not being alone. It's feeling bad about it.

I agree with the first part, but not with the second.

IMO, loneliness is not feeling bad _about_ being alone, it is suffering _from_ being alone. All four combinations of alone/lonely are more or less common.

Personally, I find the "not alone/lonely" combination hardest to take: feeling alone among people. Realizing that made me spend more time on my own and being less lonely as a consequence. Still, nothing helps when really feeling lonely, except meeting someone who does not make you feel even more lonely.

<comment><USER22> You are right. "Suffering from it." is much better way of describing it than "Feeling bad about it."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I was too feeling lonely not long ago after losing my partner of many years. I had fallen into a pretty bad state and just felt more alone with ever passing day. After my grieving I knew something had to be done and I decided to choose between two things I've always wanted to do, boxing and salsa dancing. I eventually enrolled in a boxing academy and love it. My coach is a great man, my fellow sparing partners are almost like family now. I have made a connection with these people I never imagined I would have. I suggest you think of something you've always wanted to do and just DO IT.

Bonus: I also look and feel great now thanks to working out.

</comment><comment><USER24> I have moved a lot during my career (Oz/China/Thailand/Europe/US, 8+ cities, now 35) and frequently that meant arriving in a new country or city with zero friends, family or support network and making do, so consider myself well schooled in this problem.

The de-facto approach is drinking. Drinking is a great way to meet people but it is often skewed toward young to middle aged people without family so can get old/tired/irritating/self-destructive. The good thing is it's easily available all the time and there's a ton of venues, so if you don't like one just browse for another.

As others have said there is no substitute for social groups... there are many options here. One good one is dancing, there are quite a few cool social dance groups in many cities now, swing/salsa/tango/etc, and in general talent is firmly not required! The younger me would have said it's not my thing, but now that I'm in my mid 30s (and married with kid) I think it's an awesome scene and regret never getting in to it! Seriously, check this stuff out.

There are also a few good team water sports with big social elements .. things like sailing, rowing, outrigging, dragon boating. Sailing is good because you can do the social side but also get some self time, while being part of a wider community. If you want more team stuff, you can sail larger vessels where it's total commitment. The other options (paddling style) are pretty full on social and may be a bit much, depending on your personality.

<comment><USER25> Would you mind sharing how you managed to move so much as well as its impact on your career?

<comment><USER24> Skipped university. Made my own opportunities where there were none otherwise. Favoured cheap places. My career had very little to do with where I was physically.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Pick up a sport/hobby with a social aspect. Many cities (I'm assuming you live in a populated area) have City League sports you can simply sign up for, pay a fee, then get put on a team.

You can join a low level (or high level if you're competitive) dodgeball team, or soccer, or basically whatever strikes your fancy, then meet some new friends. It also gets you out of the house once a week or more with some new faces.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the ideas. I've thought about it, but I.. I hate sports. I'll poke around for some non-sport related hobby groups, perhaps.

<comment><USER27> To add to the GP: you might consider trying ultimate frisbee. The barrier to entry for a city league is really low (little athletic ability and no domain knowledge required) and many players tend to be technical people: I know several software devs who play frequently. In addition, the community is the most welcoming and least disparaging I've ever seen in any organization, bar none.

If you're really really not into athletic pursuits, I would second meetup.com for your interests. You also might check to see if your city has any bars/restaurants focused around board games or trivia. Those are also great for meeting new friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Love for solitude is a great gift, I think. I used to be stuck between introversion and extroversion; on one hand I did things better on my own, on the other I sought validation from others, all the time. Guilt only amplified this problem. It was pretty toxic, and took many years to sort out .. it's only recently that I can feel 'substantial' enough to enjoy my own company. (I feel that this is actually an illusion, but a much needed one to save my own sanity!)

But you're right; we're social animals and will never get away with complete solitude. It sounds that you do enjoy your own company, but need the occasional 'break' from yourself. You mentioned that you have a handful of friends? Focus on them, even though you may feel that it's tedious.

I know that "going out and meet new people" is cliche but it's so true that it's a great first step. Try meetup.com to find out events that you might be interested in. Don't just go for tech, try a new crazy thing, oh and hiking ;) Sunning your face and relaxing your eyes over vast expanses can do wonders to the soul, I find.

</comment><comment><USER28> Find a hobby that you want to do more frequently in a week. A hobby that allows you to have lots of people around you that you will see more frequently, but not necessarily forces you to talk to them.

This is the first few part of the friendship formula. Proximity and frequency.

<comment><USER29> +1 To that I would add that consistency is key in forming relationships at activities. If you show up consistently for the same activity without skipping sessions, you automatically become part of the "core group". People new to the group will now look to you for guidance. This will ensure that a) people come and talk to you and b) you are forced to talk to them and help them, and in doing so you'll forget about your own hangups c) your consistency instills confidence in others that building a relationship with you is worth their while

I've observed this in my own attendance at things like weekly pick-up sports games, organized leagues etc. Players who show up week after week are just as well-regarded as more-skilled, but less regular players.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> a hobby, i usually do martial arts in a class environment. also for example consider getting a sociable pet such as a dog, bearded dragon, etc.

with a sociable pet you get company at home; and for instance with a dog there are usually local dog parks where fellow owners _eventually_ meet eachother and while not becoming friends always can be a social event with your peers.

</comment><comment><USER31> I still struggle with loneliness from time to time. A sporting activity can help. In my case, I started sailing. I couldn't afford a boat of my own at the time (1994, I couldn't afford much of anything then to be honest), but the local yacht club is volunteer oriented and easy to join. I was able to sail club boats and that made it easy to interact with other people with a similar interest. The volunteer aspect meant I was frequently paired up with someone else helping out with club functions. Obviously it doesn't have to be sailing, but getting outdoors with an activity that involves teamwork can really help.

</comment><comment><USER32> Also an introvert to some degree, and I've worked hard at overcoming this so I am indistinguishable from an extrovert. Working in front facing customer support, sales, marketing, management, fund raising ... yeah ... introvert is a bit harder for those things. So I had to adapt.

I've been working out at a gym for many years (semi-social, makes easy conversations possible with like minded people, though you have to worry about people with ear-buds whom don't want to be disturbed), karate (very social, good strong local friend group now ... go to dinner with them, go to events with them, all help each other).

I had in the past done various meetups (many years ago), to get conversations going.

I recommend getting a nice friendly dog; labrador breeds are great. I have a Chesapeake Bay retriever mix as as a rescue ... wonderful companion, and excellent conversation starter when I walk him. Very friendly, rarely barks ... he's a rescue, and had a terrible life before we adopted him.

The dog part is tremendously helpful BTW. When my wife and daughter are out, I can sit on my couch reading a book, and he'll hop up next to me for comfort. I'll talk to him, and happily, most of the time he doesn't answer ... though he knows enough words (treat, cheese, bone, walk, trot, outside, play), that I'm rarely really ever alone.

</comment><comment><USER33> Find a hobby or pursue the ones you've got. No, not the React/node.js meetup, ya dork, something not tech related. Here are the places or hobbies I frequent where I could make new friends if I wanted to: 1\. Local animal shelter. They always need someone to walk dogs. Personally I'm married, but were I single and looking for someone (in my case, female), oh man, it makes a great filter if you like animals. And the asshole ratio of folks I've met at animals is pretty darned low. On a related note, many in these comments suggest a pet. Know that a pet, especially a dog, is a lot of time and responsibility, and not to be taken lightly. Where do you all those animals at the animal shelter come from? Not a "child" level of responsibility, but my dogs take up a substantial part of my day.

2\. Bluegrass jam, or any casual music circle thing. The people you meet are also people you might spend a weekend camping with because you end up at music festivals together. Gotta learn an instrument, though. And one one will occasionally run into the "gotta be better than everyone else and make sure they know it" asshole, but rarely. Usually a pretty mellow bunch, and the good ones let their playing, not their mouth, speak for their skills.

3\. Some kind of sport, like running or cycling, or even beach volleyball I guess. Caution: could be assholes a'plenty if you get in the wrong group. I prefer runners, as they're generally a more laid back group. Try trail running if you like it so laid back you'll smell pot smoke before a race.

Those are the three things I regularly participate in where me might meet people (including a romantic partner), and generally nice people at that. Extrapolate to your own tastes and interests.

</comment><comment><USER34> I almost tried accept and live with my loneliness for years as I thought I would need practice later on in life. It actually wasn't _all_ that bad, but I'm probably not a normal person. What got me a bit out of my shell was going out on dates from tinder or other dating platforms, and really you should venture into it as "I'd love to go to {XYZ} and check it out, I just feel weird (tons of anxiety) going by myself. It'd be great to just meet someone else there and try to enjoy the place together, regardless of whether or not it'll go anywhere relationship-wise."

I find it still really hard to make male friends as a male. I've even gotten numbers from other guys who I've met at a bar and had a blast with all night, but it's still just a little bit weird to call the guy afterwards. In order to make male friends, I think it takes a shared interest in something and repetition. Maybe through a meetup or a weekly rec-league dodgeball game or something that you wouldn't hate dragging yourself to.

Making that first step _is_ tough though. Good thing is that it's usually the toughest.

</comment><comment><USER35> The big thing I've learned is that loneliness is simply your brain signaling you to go meet people - it's natural and there's nothing wrong with it. Meeting people is hard though - but there are plenty of ways to do it, especially now with internet. It does require a set of skills, though, just like everything else. I've found therapy can really help develop and tune them.

</comment><comment><USER36> When I was younger and needed to get out more I took salsa dancing classes in large groups for a year or two. It's good exercise, great music, and gives you an excuse to go out and interact with real people outside the computer.

There's an interesting lesson in there as well about pair dancing, in that you can have wildly different experiences with each partner, similar to relationships.

</comment><comment><USER37> Having had a similar phase in my life, the thing that helped me was philosophy and esoteric psychology. Especially: [http://gnosticteachings.org/courses/gnostic- meditation.html](http://gnosticteachings.org/courses/gnostic-meditation.html)

People speak about thoughts, emotions and actions as if they knew what they are or how they are gestated. "I AM mad!", "Because I THOUGHT that ...", "I do FEEL alone", etc.

They think they are behind their thoughts, emotions and actions, that they ARE what they think, feel and do, and nothing could be further from the truth and it is the easiest thing in the world to evaluate it because they couldn't stop thinking for a minute even if their life depended on it.

And this is the gravest error we commit, to believe we are in conscious control and therefore solving problems seems abstract or even impossible to us. As they've said in older times "if you know not that you are asleep, you cannot wake."

See once for yourself the reality of how unconscious awareness leads to chains of thoughts running completely on their own without the involvement of will or participation, leading to mechanical emotions and mechanical action.

See this happening and something is evoked, the capacity to act against yourself or the inner urge that drives you to behave in a certain way, the unconscious machine that merely reacts to impressions outside and inside. It becomes possible to act free of constraints where otherwise you would merely re-act according to how you think or feel or are accustomed to.

Philosophy called it the paradox of free will. From there on problems actually can be solved because inner change is possible and feasible. If you understand that the outside is merely the reflection of your inner state, everything can change radically.

</comment><comment><USER38> I spent around 5 years crippled by this very issue, to the point where I was so lonely I was terrified of any social contact, and close to not wanting to continue. It took just as long to 'recover' from this very real issue. You are in no way alone with this issue, and I think is really felt throughout the IT industry.

The way I am learning to overcome my loneliness and social anxiety issues, is be forcing myself to go out with people when I am invited, and to exercise (perhaps to the extreme) with cycling, climbing, swimming, running, etc.

Remember however that loneliness is not something that anyone else can solve other then yourself. You may need to change your situation, and surround yourself with people similar to yourself, and understanding kind people if possible.

As others have said loneliness is a problem of situation, and lack of contact with others. Your absolutely doing the right thing by reaching out and talking about it however!

</comment><comment><USER39> I'm like you - an introvert who likes being alone, just not all the time. And sometimes I just feel like hanging out with some new friends. I think _meeting_ people isn't the primary problem, though - I just don't put in the effort to stay in touch with the people I do meet because most of the time I don't crave outside company or conversation. So when I do feel like being social, the connection is just not there - that is on me.

I recently joined a hiking group on Meetup.com and it looks promising. Being out in nature with other people who enjoy being out in nature, being active, seems like a good way to meet new people in a more relaxed setting (that is, not a loud bar or work event). Then the onus will be on me to stay in touch with at least a couple of them, but even if I don't there will always be the next hike where we could catch up.

</comment><comment><USER40> The one thing that really helped me with loneliness was when I started chanting and practicing Buddhism. It was in fact the sole reason why I started practicing in the first place. It's been a long journey and although I would still consider myself an introvert, it has broadened my social network significantly. I do spend time alone occasionally but I have a family and a network of friends.

I believe human relationships and social interaction are the key to happiness and the lack of it is a major source of suffering. However, at the same time, we also have our individual characteristics that define us. Balancing both our need to be an individual and our need to be social relates to being in harmony with life.

I try to help as many people as I can feel less lonely so I'm happy to have a chat if you'd like.

</comment><comment><USER41> Thanks for this question. I think many people will be curious about the comments here.

In my case, I have stopped thinking about it. Admittedly, some days it's not so easy, but the next day it's gone. What can I say. Some people like parties, others like strange things, and we like to be alone.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm very happy to see such a lively, helpful discussion sparked from my post.

May I ask what you do on the days that it is bothering you? Do you just keep going until it doesnt bother you?

I find that I can do this, and have been doing this. It's just lately... The days I'm stuck living and feeling my loneliness outweigh the days I forget about it.

<comment><USER41> That's a good question. I have been thinking a lot about it to try to give you an honest answer. Or maybe, give myself an answer.

As always, is complicated. Probably two major things happening. First, years of practice. Second, a new hobby/hope.

For years of practice, what I mean is, for example what I learned about myself while talking to a therapist. Also techniques from books, blogs, videos, etc. More interesting, and probably more important is what I have learn about how the mind works. That really helps.

The hobby/hope/purpose or whatever they want a call it, it's very helpful. I'll even say it's necessary. It has to be big, like the coolest thing ever. To make you wake up every morning thinking about it. Many of the activities recommended here could be a good option, but only if they would help you achieve that cool thing you like.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Send me an email and I'll invite you to our "Solo Founders" slack channel, it's not super active, but if you're feeling lonely or just wanna chat, it's nice to have a few regulars to reach out to.

We all help each other, which can be handy to bounce tech problems off too

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank-you for your offer, might just have to take you up on it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Forget about introversion vs extraversion. Its waste of time. Learn about attachement theory.

<comment> J-dawg > _Forget about introversion vs extraversion. Its waste of time._

What makes you say that? I ask because I've also become slightly sceptical of the idea. Is there real, empirical evidence for people being one or the other?

I remember hearing someone on a podcast (I think it was Ramit Sethi) talking about "Introvert Porn", where he's saying there's all this stuff online basically reassuring introverts that it's part of who they are and there's no point trying to change. The reality is that (in his opinion) social skills can be learned, and social interaction becomes less tiring when your social skills are better.

I'd love to hear any arguments for or against the introvert vs. extrovert theory, because I feel like I'm still making up my mind. I've always _felt_ like an introvert, but I'd prefer to think of it as something that's in my power to change.

<comment><USER35> Introversion and extroversion is really a scale, but most people use it in a binary way. Plus, it varies by the context.

It has also taken on it's own social meaning. For example, shyness is often associated with introversion and that may not be the right way to look at it.

<comment> J-dawg > _Plus, it varies by the context_

I guess this is the core of my question. How much is something allowed to vary by context before it's basically rendered meaningless as an idea?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> The two easiest/best ways to establish strong social connections are 1) a shared interest and 2) being introduced by a mutual friend/acquaintance.

You could look for groups to participate in that involve some established interest of you, such as a book club. You could also put the word out that you are looking to widen your social circle and find some means to signal to existing acquaintances that you would appreciate it if they kept you in mind or pointed you in the right direction. Just letting people know you are open to introductions can help foster them. Introverts are often basically giving off "Go away!" signals without really being aware of it.

</comment><comment><USER45> I was part of a caring community for years. When Trump was nominated they decided that in order to support women men must be silent. It's been a lonely year. It's hard to make friends when you don't drink or care about sports.

</comment><comment><USER46> -"go meet people" (how?)-

TLDR: Don't overthink it, just start with smalltalk.

Go to gym. Work out, simply talk to people. Go to a bar. Have a drink, simply talk to people. Look up amateur sport activities in your area (hiking, trekking, whatever). Join, participate. Simply talk to people. Why do I keep saying 'simply talk'? Because in the end it _is_ really simple. Loneliness is consequence of overthinking. If you don't feel confident, work on your image a bit. Some muscle mass and 'cool clothes' can do wonders (I know it sounds superficial, but hey it's truth).

</comment><comment><USER47> I remember being very very lonely. It took a long time to accept the emotion as a transient feeling instead of a permanent state of being.

You have to put yourself out there and do the work. That means make friends or even friends of friends. Find a hobby? Join a coed team sport (softball?)... bowling league? meet ups? Take a cooking class... anything with other people and in some subject you would enjoy.

You can accept the emotion and recognize it for what it is as a passive observer. Take things one day at a time.

</comment><comment><USER14> Can you give some more details of how you currently spend your time? Live in a city? How many hours do you work? How long is your commute? Do you work weekends? Live alone?

<comment><AUTHOR> Work (enjoy what I do) ~40 hours/week. Commute is about 20 minutes one-way. No weekends anymore, thankfully. And yes, live alone. Free time spent reading, tv, WoW, learning. I try to hang out with a friend at least once a week for a few hours

<comment><USER48> Changing your living situation to include forced socialization can help. Move into a city center with social flatmates? On the more aggressive side of the spectrum, remoteyear.com

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> My situation is a bit different. I work from home, it's gets really lonely at times. i focus on activities. I go out on bike, join biking groups on weekends once in a while, take long walks, go hiking with friends, play soccer on weekends, and ride a motorcycle. Through activities I have something to look forward and that's the basis of life. I do meet passing crowd through activities though only a few continue to be in touch.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank-you for sharing your situation. I think the more discussion on this topic, the better for all of us.

Walking/hiking seems like an easy habit to get in to with benefits abound.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> Use Meetup.com to find people with similar interests. Write down a list of things you enjoy doing with other people (hiking, board games, whiskey tastings), join 15-20 Meetup groups, and start attending meetups that appeal to you. This helped me find a group of hikers and discovered lesser-known hiking spots after moving to a new city.

I am an introvert, and meetups are a good way for me to control the circumstances and volume of socializing in my life.

</comment><comment><USER51> Hmm...

I find it hard too.

What I do right now is: 1\. Suck it up. This kind of works quite well for me, since I've also done meditation retreats in which you'll be forced to learn to deal with it. 2\. If you don't have much time to go outside, then make it more of a point to call people. 3\. Find something to do. Changing your attention to something else in which you can get engrossed in is definitely a good thing :)

</comment><comment><USER52> I started to play games, with voice. Join clans, talk to strangers. After some time I was hanging out in raidcall room just to talk.

</comment><comment><USER53> This is generic advice, I know… but go out and attend a planned activity that requires strangers to interact with each other. It can be salsa dancing, it can be Toastmasters, it can be poker, or anything in between. Just find some sort of time-bounded activity where you interact with people by default and can attend on a set schedule. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER54> Here's something that worked for me: all of a sudden I got this crazy interest in airsoft. Bought a gun and joined locals who get together every week to shoot at themselves. This is just an example, but the concept is great: find a hobby. You'll then find people with very similar interest, and hanging out with them is a lot easier.

</comment><comment><USER55> Whatever other options you take, also arrange to get a counselor / therapist. Consider it an investment in your mental health. Adjusting to meeting more people is stressful and they will support you through it. You will also improve your personality (no matter where you start with, knowing yourself helps).

</comment><comment><USER56> I don't think there is a solution to this other than a significant lifestyle or personality change.

Some people are personable and extroverted and are surrounded by people that want to be around them. For the rest of us it doesn't come naturally. I would suggest just becoming comfortable with it.

</comment><comment><USER57> I joined a car club and met some acquaintances that way, hopefully some of them become friends. There's got to be something you like to do that other people like to do.

</comment><comment><USER58> Daki.

Just kidding. One thing I've learned to avoid depression: keep yourself occupied. While you're finding your solution it'll help you stop getting any worse.

</comment><comment><USER59> You can try joining a no-profit local community. Also if you are in a tech city you can probably find a lot of tech-related meetups full of friendly people

</comment><comment><USER60> You need a hobby outside the computer world, something you cannot automate, like fishing or sailing, to meet different people and share the passion

</comment><comment><USER61> For me the simplest is to find hobbies that I like. I do martial arts or board games. They are both pretty social and easy to start for new people

</comment><comment><USER62> I remember taking adderall and working 16 hour days for a few weeks at a time. Every once in a while I would message my friends with the word "helllppp" but I was too high generally to care about my predicament. That is how I dealt with loneliness in the aftermath of about failed wedding engagement

</comment><comment><USER63> Loneliness is more widespread than you could imagine, and it effects every person differently.

The easiest way to develop friendships or make connections with people is to show up regularly to a scheduled event. Even if you are the shyest, most social awkward person in the world, if you keep showing up to a regular event you will help combat loneliness.

My first suggestion is physical activities. If you're not already doing something active start there. Doing something physical will wear you out and help keep your mind from focusing on being alone. It is also a great way to meet new people and have something to talk about. Join a gym, a running club, start going to a rock-climbing gym, join a hiking Meetup group, find someone at work or a neighbor that likes to bike and go for rides, join a sports club or team, play airsoft/paintball, go geocaching, etc. There is something physical for everyone of all body types and abilities. Lets say you like lifting weights. Start going to the gym 3 times a week. Maybe after a few weeks you see a free yoga class and are interested, take it. Say hi to someone. Later on that person may need a spotter, or have a question. Boom, you've made a (sort of) friend.

Once you have a physical activity built into your routine, find one or two non-work (and non-video game!) hobbies that you enjoy. Chess, tabletop games, fishing, walking around the city, going to museums, fixing cars/machines, restoring furniture, painting, drawing, old electronic restoration, going to bookstores, -- literally anything you could see yourself spending 1 or 2 hours of free time on per day or every few days. Start doing this regularly. Don't worry if it's alone. Being occupied with something you like will make your mind too busy too care. PLUS once you need to drum up small talk with a friend/co-worker/whoever you will have something to talk about.

Don't be afraid of "looking lonely". If you enjoy going to bars/coffee shops/dinner/whatever once in a while, go to one! If you can invite someone great, if not, go anyway. You'd be surprised how many people do things alone. If you have the gift of gab, chat them up. Maybe you won't have a new friend, but it will be some interaction. Sometimes all you need is to physically be present around people to help cure the loneliness.

Also, and this one was the biggest change that affected me, say yes to things! If you are lucky enough to get invited to do stuff (by family, coworkers, anyone), say yes. Even if you can only show up or do the activity for 30 mins, go. Saying yes has a snowball effect, the more you say yes the more you will be invited. If you absolutely need to say no, have no interest, etc, offer a counter-invite to a separate activity and then follow up. Also, invite people to do things. Even if it sounds boring/lame/mundane. Have errands after work? Invite someone. People are more willing to do boring stuff then you would think.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank-you for the indepth reply! I think a lot of valuable information is there.

I usually don't feel afraid of "looking lonely" but, there have been a few times I stop myself from going and grabbing a dinner at a bar / diner or whatever because I get caught up thinking people are going to pity me for being out to dinner alone.

I really like the counter-invite idea you mentioned in your last paragraph. I've been trying to say "yes" to everything I can but sometimes I just can't make it, and I've never thought to counter-invite.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> change your diet first... again... change it meet ppl in your free time and be prepared to fail when trying to mingle, but enjoy the little moment of happiness that soon or later will come.

</comment><comment><USER65> You could take up smoking. Every day I drive to work it's like the smokers are having a social get together. If you're worried about getting addicted you could start vaping 0% nicotine. The vapers are in the smoking circle too.

<comment><AUTHOR> I haven't had a smoke in 2 years, not planning on going back to it. I grasp your point though

<comment><USER65> Good for you! I have quit off and on over the years. It's been a long time since my last smoke. I definitely used to meet more people that way though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> Email me if you ever want to talk. firstname.lastname@example.com :-)

</comment><comment><USER67> Have you tried therapy?

You mentioned "fear" in context of reflecting on your situation but it is possible that it is some sort of "fear" that is keeping you from extending your social wings.

</comment><comment><USER68> Join a local running club. Worked for me.

</comment><comment><USER69> When I moved to a new city where I knew literally no one I spent a lot of time thinking about, and working on this problem. I generally have a pretty small circle of people I consider friends and for me friendship with a new person doesn't "just happen" I have to interact with someone repeatedly (I don't think it's a revolutionary observation to point this out but it is worth noting that repeated interaction is key). At the same time though, I'm introverted and sometimes I just do not want to interact. So I thought about the types of interactions that I feel more comfortable in so even on days that I don't want to interact I can still usually handle them.

For me that means meeting people via activities. I've additionally found I'm happier when I'm a bit active so a lot of the specific examples lean that way but the general principle is the same.

Structured activities where the whole group is 20 people or less I can almost always handle especially if the activity itself is solo and the group socialization part can be dropped into and out of easily. My favorite activities like this are target shooting or archery: can't handle people for a bit? Go shoot targets no one will disturb you. Feel like interacting? take a break and go to the water cooler ask for a tip on your form, compliment someones grouping etc and a conversation naturally starts up. But as soon as you are getting overstimulated it's easy to go "I should really go practice see you in a few rounds" and drop out of the conversation.

Classes where we have to partner up so I'm interacting with a person or several people within the class, but one on one, with a known end time, work really really well for me. On days I can handle more interaction the door to chat a little during class and usually there is some conversation that happens just after. On days I don't feel up to socializing there isn't an obligation though. And because the interaction is structured around a skill I don't ever have to stress out about carrying a conversation. For me boxing worked well, as did dance classes (which after I had done for a while so I felt comfortable and less like I was going to step on my partners feet led to social dancing). Language learning classes and meet ups were tougher but still worked well.

The final thing I did took some work but It's really paid off in terms of expanding the people I know: I actively tried to turn myself into a social information hub. I have become a person who knows what is going on in my city in any given week. What are the beer festivals? What community events? What operas or plays in town? What fun runs are happening? What concerts are coming up? I don't go to 95% of the things I know about but it means I can immediately make myself valuable to a new acquaintance by going "Hey you expressed an interest XYZ did you know $eventRelatedToActivity is happening? Seems like something you might be interested in" which firstly shows them I listened to them which everyone likes and makes them like you more and secondly tells them I'm a good person to maintain contact with because I can point them to things they enjoy.

</comment><comment><USER70> Start a family.</comment>


The next-gen iPhone will be the new Pocket PC - <AUTHOR> http://www.geek.com/articles/apple/the-next-gen-iphone-will-be-the-new-pocket-pc-20090415/

<comment><USER2> This article is basically just speculation on his part but I disagree with his premise. He's looking at the next generation iPhone like Microsoft looks at products which is to stuff as many features in as possible. Even if they don't work all that well.

But Apple tends to be the opposite. They'll go so far as to leave out features that other competitors have if they think the technology isn't there yet. Which is why I don't expect to see things like office document editing in the next iPhone.

The whole post reminds me of this video...

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0&feature=player_embedded)

</comment><comment><USER3> The article mostly combines rumors from shady sources and some imagination to speculaty about future iPhone uses.

It then tries to sell to us that the combination of video editing, video calling, and more advanced gaming will bring us the 'new pocket pc'? Who is going to edit video on an iPhone? You might want to cut out a small part of a recording and send that to friend, but I find it hard to call that 'video editting' or label that as an important function.

Phones have been able to video call for a while now, but no-one does it, and I guess there's a reason for that.

It then continues to say that a) the iPhone needs a more powerful GPU to compete on the gaming market and b) that game houses are interested in the iPhone because of its installed base of 30 million. That doesn't really add up, if you need the more powerful graphics, the previous devices are useless to you, and so you have to start with a base of 0 users. Even worse, because 30 million people already have an iPhone/iPod touch, they are less likely to upgrade to the new version any time soon.

It also states that more powerful CPU/GPU is necessary for editing office documents. I don't see how more power is going to help in that aspect. The bottleneck here is a poor interface for editing documents. The limited screen size and poor input method are something you can't fix with more power.

That said, I do think that a more powerful iPhone is attractive. It works now, but it would be much nicer if Safari would be more responsive and could hold pages in its cache for longer. Right now looking up something on Google might take more than a minute, with slow Safari start times and slow 3G connectivity.

A faster iPhone will become more usable immediately, even without new apps taking advantage of the increased speed.

</comment><comment><USER4> The only problem I have with his premise is that handhelds don't really -need- more hardware to become the next major general purpose computing platform.

Incremental advancements will make them -better-, but current generation devices are already there.

Every single person I've seen get a Blackberry, iPhone or android device has seriously curtailed their laptop usage. They've also (almost annoyingly) increased the degree to which they reach for their mobile apps, for tasks that could never justify pulling out the laptop.

It's reminiscent of the way that early laptops, while not yet sufficient to replace any desktop, still significantly ate into desktop usage.

The 'tipping point' he postulates is yet to come has already passed. In my opinion, Nokia's n770 was probably the last device that wasn't -quite- there. Everything after has been plenty capable hardware-wise.

<comment><USER5> There's a difference between a device that can do the job and a device that you prefer to use to do that job. I prefer my android phone to a netbook, because it has the phone part, and because netbooks which are near it in size don't have typable keyboards (for me), so I'm not losing that much.

A friend and I were talking about this recently, and he mentioned that he'd love to just carry around a single device that he could use for all his computing, but that it would have to have all the features of an iPhone or G1, plus the ability to use a regular keyboard, mouse, and screen when he was at home. With such a device, a laptop that was basically just a peripheral bed for the phone/device would be useful, as well, for that typable keyboard.

I think we're almost there, but not quite. The requisite features _could_ be built into current-tech devices, but aren't, at the moment.

<comment><USER6> [http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/03/03/gigabyte.debut...](http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/03/03/gigabyte.debuts.at.cebit/)

I'm waiting for something like this to mature.

<comment><USER5> That's still too big for me (while being too small to effectively type on). My G1 is really close, and except for lacking a telephony component, the OQO is nearly spot on.

<comment><USER6> Checking out the newer OQO (and the dock) it is as close as you can get currently to an all in one device.

What would be perfect is something just like form factor wise it but with the possibility of some sort of fold out/flexible screen (maybe a a built in laser projector?)

The next 5 years are going to be very exciting in the mobile computer market.

<comment><USER5> Yeah, a foldable e-paper screen (already on a Motorola phone, I think) would be close to ideal. The OQO is much more interesting than I remember it being when I last heard about it. Maybe my needs have changed, or maybe the initial version wasn't so great.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> video chat will _not_ be the next killer app. Sorry.

<comment><USER8> I kind of agree - heck I'd still like a cellphone with good enough audio quality that I can hear most of what the other person's saying. If I could hear all of it _and_ tell who they are from the sound of their voice that would be sweet.

On the other hand, if there's any company who could make a simple, usable videophone device and make it popular, Apple can. Killer App? Doesn't feel everso likely, does it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Integration with other services is what will push the iPhone beyond the paradigm of a cellular phone. Full wireless interaction with any type of device is not that far off, especially with the 3.0 software.

Most of us already have very capable computers in our pockets. The problem is that we're using them wrong.

</comment><comment><USER10> I lost my phone last night. Are there any online prediction markets (perhaps based overseas) that have an estimate as to when the next generation iteration might drop?

<comment><USER11> <http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/></comment></comment>


PhoneDrone Ethos - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/137596013/phonedrone-ethos-a-whole-new-dimension-for-your-sm <comment><USER2> I have had this idea for the past month or two, working on a foam glider right now. Will probably open source when I'm done.</comment>


Dramatic new discoveries illuminate the lost Indus civilization - happy-go-lucky https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/dramatic-new-discoveries-illuminate-the-lost-indus-civilization/ <comment> rm_-rf_slash This is amazing. The Indus Valley Civilization is the most fascinating ancient society one could imagine. Not only did they appear to produce fountains and waterways while other civilizations were busy building temples and palaces, but they were also remarkably - perhaps uniquely- peaceful. _Very_ little evidence of weaponry has been found throughout their ruins.

If we are lucky enough to decipher their writing system with machine learning (or perhaps some undiscovered Rosetta Stone), I would spend days on end reading everything I could about this incredible and mysterious culture.

<comment><AUTHOR> Just watch out for the ancient aliens people who claim that Mohenjo-Daro and Harrapa were sites of nuclear wars and that the Indus people had flying machines called "vimana".

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> I had never heard of this civilization before so this was a very interesting read. I would also recommend, for people like myself who are just finding out about this group of people, to have a look at the Wikipedia article[1].

[1]:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation)

</comment><comment><USER3> Rabi and Kharif refer to the seasons the crop was sown in, not different cultivars of the given crop. Just a small point that needed clarification.</comment>


Route Optimizer written in Julia - <AUTHOR> https://forio.com/app/showcase/route-optimizer/

<comment><USER2> I wrote the solver code used here as an example for the JuMP modeling package for Julia, which is available at [https://github.com/JuliaOpt/JuMP.jl](https://github.com/JuliaOpt/JuMP.jl). The specific TSP example code is available at [https://github.com/JuliaOpt/JuMP.jl/blob/master/examples/tsp...](https://github.com/JuliaOpt/JuMP.jl/blob/master/examples/tsp.jl), and more general information about optimization in Julia is available at [http://juliaopt.org](http://juliaopt.org)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's a link which explains how this works:

[http://forio.com/about/blog/route-optimizer-julia-google- map...](http://forio.com/about/blog/route-optimizer-julia-google-maps- epicenter/)

<comment><USER2> The really unfortunate thing about that post is it completely fails to understand the essential part of solving the TSP this way, which are the lazily-added subtour elimination constraints. I don't think the blog author at Forio really understood the code they were using, hopefully they will update it one day!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is amazing! I wish there was such a thing for simple A -> B routing taking into consideration the traffic.

<comment><USER4> Surely this can just be achieved by simply increasing the length of congested roads to normalize travel times.</comment></comment>


Thinking of using Stripe for your startup? Think again - <AUTHOR> https://ultimatemember.com/startups-avoid-stripe/ <comment><USER3> The real issue I see here is that these companies still have a merchant underwriting process, but like to maintain the illusion that they don't. They let you get started and become reliant on them, and then with a single email can destroy your business. I would much prefer to go through an underwriting process and either be officially approved or turned down _before_ becoming reliant on any processor, because the underwriting is occurring anyway - <USER2> at the worst possible time.

BTW, it's not particularly moving to me that they reinstated him _after this hit the front page of HN_. Also, the 5 day "grace period" offered here is meaningless because all of the funds will be held for 90 days. Since many small businesses simply don't have a 3 month runway, for a lot of businesses this email might as well say _" Stripe has decided to destroy your business. Sorry about that."_

</comment><comment><USER4> Hey Kylnew, I am the author of that post. Just wanted to say that i've had a phone call from Stripe 5 mins ago and this has been resolved. Not sure if you want to keep this post up or not.

<comment><USER5> That sounds even more disturbing - automated, robotic account cancellation and dismissal of all communications regarding it... until you get a little bit famous, and then you instantly get a human response. How does anybody think that this is an acceptable way to do business?

The really sad thing is that I'd be more upset at Stripe if every other business you deal with starting an internet company didn't do the same thing over and over again. Never mind the ease of integration, are there any payment processing companies out there who make it easy speak to a human being in possession of common sense and the ability to make decisions if there is a dispute regarding your account, without having to get famous first?

<comment><USER6> This is actually what I hate most about these stories.

Fortunately for the guys involved, when they post something and it goes somewhat public then suddenly all companies are so eager to solve your problems.

So what about us underdogs that really don't have anything remotely famous enough to get their attention? We are screwed basically.

This really speaks loudly about Stripe that they kept sending canned responses until the threat of public shaming was looming over their heads. Then they suddenly are swift to solve the issue? even with a _phone call_?

Not cool.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I had a mixed reaction to this blog post. On the one hand it is helpful to understand the risk involved with using Stripe for payment processing. I presume, because Stripe wants to onboard users as fast as possible they back- load some of the review process for new accounts. That's an obvious double- edged sword and clearly impacted these guys negatively.

But, on the other hand, I felt that the tone was a little bit strange. Stripe doesn't have to do business with you, or anybody else. It's not offensive to my sensibilities that Stripe has it's own processes and concerns as it relates to it's customers (not to mention regulatory requirements).

And this bit stuck in my craw "..So overnight without warning Stripe had decided to stop us from using their services after 5 days.."

That email was your warning. You did, in fact, get a warning. You got 5 days to change payment processors.

<comment><USER8> If you think 5 days is "warning" in this situation you either have never written a line of payment processing code, are not a coder, or are horribly misinformed. 5 days is NOTHING, they got lucky b/c they had a paypal backup but if they hadn't they would have probably needed to stop taking payments for a period of time while they re-wrote their payment stack. In 5 days they were expected (note at least 1 of those days was a weekend) find a new processor, get approved (not all are as fast as Stripe), link their bank account (2-3 days min), write code to use it, write tests (this is handling money after all), manually test the different cases, and deploy it. Not to mention that every other project those developers were working on have to be put on hold (assuming none were more urgent). This is nothing to sneeze at and let's also remember that the OP was doing nothing wrong (so much so Stripe has reversed their decision). So just let that sink in, a company is given 5 days to rewrite a substantial piece of their platform code or be cut off all because of a false positive with no realistic way to communicate with Stripe (No, email tickets doesn't cut it).

<comment><USER9> Right, that bugs me too. "We are disrupting the payments industry! So we would like our customers to shoulder more of the risk in our market. We've decided you're too risky, so drop everything you're doing right now and spend the next few days finding a new payments provider. Thank you for choosing Stripe!"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Biggest problem with payments startups (Square, Stripe) is their unwillingness to scale out their operations (i.e. call centers, live customer support) proportional to their business. So a lot of it becomes as automated as possible through use of flawed analytics/machine learning and then email-only support, which I agree is unacceptable when you're dealing with potentially large sums of real money as a business owner.

</comment><comment><USER11> You know, for all the flack Paypal has gotten, they've been pretty great in my experience.

We're using Paypal for our web game at [http://clickerheroes.com/](http://clickerheroes.com/) and we have a pretty high number of disputes and chargebacks compared to average businesses (for obvious reasons, people want to get the paid stuff in the game for free).

We got a call from Paypal once when they noticed this, and they just wanted to know the reason for the high dispute/chargeback rate. I explained it to them, they understood, and that was the end of that.

Maybe the bad PR they used to get has made them change their ways. I doubt they'd ever do anything like what Stripe just did to the OP.

<comment><USER8> > I doubt they'd ever do anything like what Stripe just did to the OP.

What? Like locking up someone's funds for a long period of time? Cutting people off with little to no notice? Yeah, PayPal would NEVER do something like that. /s

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I really wonder if the name "Ultimate Member" had something to do with it ("member" being a euphemism for "penis"). Maybe someone saw the name and instantly tagged it as a porn site? I know the UK has had a weird relationship with porn lately.

<comment><USER13> lately = entire history ;-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Getting paid is fucked. In total, our "getting paid" process is ridiculously expensive, and the % here, % there being skimmed off the top by all players is really biting in some cases. When you are charging a few bucks for something it doesn't seem to add to all that much, but we typically have lower volume, higher amounts type payments, and on average, or "banking and financial transactions" cost line on the P&L runs between 15% to 20%. Having to pay that much money just to manage my money is rather upsetting.

Add on to that the idea that processors like paypal, stripe and the like basically hold you by the short and hairies and can at any point _destroy your business_ by saying "we don't like something, we are cutting you off and holding on to your cash" is disturbing.

We really need a better alternative. Practice has shown that Bitcoin isn't it, so far.

</comment><comment><USER4> Hi everyone, I have published a new blog post on how we got our account back:

[https://ultimatemember.com/got-stripe-account- back/](https://ultimatemember.com/got-stripe-account-back/)

</comment><comment><USER15> When you're developer-focused processor that integrates tightly with a website (Stripe) instead of providing a platform (like PayPal), your fraud protection can only go so far.

Stripe has taken steps to improve their fraud protection, but as someone in the field of protection, I can say that I'd happily take PayPal's over Stripe's.

</comment><comment><USER16> We've been on stripe for years. We tried issuing our first refund ever then Stripe booted us off with the same bullshit message

</comment><comment><USER17> It's infuriating and borderline criminal that these kinds of companies are able to put a hold on all your funds at their whim. One of my previous startups lost several days of income for good when Google Checkout decided our business wasn't acceptable to them.</comment>


Red Hat changes its logo after customers call it 'sinister', 'secretive' - <AUTHOR> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/05/10/2315208/red-hat-changes-logo-after-customers-call-it-sinister-secretive <comment><USER3> On a lighter note, I knew there was a reason when these _shadowmen_ were literally adorning the red 'hats' at AWS Summit in London couple of days ago, but not giving it out as SWAG (Something We All Get) at the event - <USER2> sinister indeed!

</comment><comment><USER4> The name doesn't inspire confidence either. I always read 'red hat' as some sort of black hat hacking phrase which connotes something sinister

</comment><comment><USER5> Even as a kid when I saw the logo on my Uncle's books or DVDs, I always found it intriguing and interesting. You will be missed, shadow guy.</comment>


860k Stratfor Accounts Dump - <AUTHOR> http://pastebin.com/f7jYf5Wd

<comment><USER3>
      It's time to dump the full 75,000 names, addresses, CCs and md5
      hashed passwords to every customer that has ever paid Stratfor.
      We almost have sympathy for those poor DHS employees and australian
      billionaires who had their bank accounts looted by the lulz

Wow. Apologies for venting, but this is fucking ludicrous. I am a middle-class mid-20s programmer who purchased a Stratfor subscription because their material is incredibly well-researched and about a million times more enlightening than your average CNN article. And now I have to cancel my credit card and deal with fraud services. Thanks a ton, Anonymous.

Congratulations, you've exposed the personal details of the rich bankers and military analysts that recognized Stratfor as the intelligent news service it is. And in the process, you've managed to completely alienate the rest of the Stratfor community, members of the "99%", who care enough about understanding global politics that they were willing to give up a portion of their hard- earned paychecks to become better-informed. Something tells me it won't be worth it.

I just can't understand it. These guys are either agent provocateurs, or complete morons.

<comment><USER4> I'd be blaming the company more than those releasing it. If these guys can how are you to know if someone hasn't come across the db silently? At least this way there is some warning.

<comment><USER3> You're kidding, right? The people releasing it are presumably _the ones who stole it in the first place._ In a bank robbery, do you blame the manufacturer of the safe that was cracked? Or home invasions on the alarm system that failed to catch the thieves? No, the _perpetrators of the crime_ are at fault.

Even if _I_ agreed with you on who was at fault here (which I clearly don't), do you think any significant number of victims of this leak will honestly blame Stratfor more than they blame the hackers behind the attack? If not, the point I made above still stands: Anonymous has alienated anyone who has ever paid for a Stratfor membership. Which is quite a diverse, and likely intelligent, group of people.

<comment><USER5> To continue using your metaphor of a real world safe:

I also blame the manufacturer of the safe because the safe was not as secure as they claimed and because it's not like securing things correctly is an unsolved problem or even just np-hard.

information can be stolen more than once, and if it can be stolen by these people, then you can damn well bet that it can be stolen by people who might not want to let you know that they took the information. how long has that data been sitting there unsecured? how many times has that data been stolen through unauthorized access? is it even reasonable to ask to be able to run a pen test against anyone who wants my information, so that i can actually know my data is secure?

<comment><USER6> Let's try to find some common ground here:

First: If you use a Master Lock (heh or an old pen-hackable Kryptonite lock) on your Bank Vault, obviously you are at fault. Doesn't matter what kind of world you _want_ to live in, you need to secure your wares adequately.

Second: It's a dick move of these guys to release all this info. They are hacktivists, or so they claim. (If they wanted to profit off this they'd sell the hacked db to Russians and not release the data) People like MLK and Gandhi also pissed off a lot of people. For example by sitting at white lunch counters, getting spit on, etc. Sorry, that's the idea behind civil disobedience / hacktivism / etc.

Third: this has been stated before, but how do you not know that this database wasn't already cracked 2 years ago by malevolent forces who've been using it for evil, but not telling you about it?

I think it's safe to say Statfor probably wasn't using a Master Lock, but clearly they didn't do enough pen testing or whatever it would've taken for them to more securely lock down their shit.

(Thought experiment: if a YC company got owned, do you think pg would blame the thieves, for their smash & grab kind of job? Or the coders who left a gaping security hole / social engineering attack vector open?)

<comment><USER5> common ground found.

not sure what pg would say, but for me (if i were in his shoes) it would depend entirely upon what/how the company was owned. there's a big difference between, say, a hacker exploiting a hole in a well-vetted, well-known encryption api and a hacker exploiting a hole an encryption api that you rolled yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Worth noting that these passwords are all MD5 encrypted but not salted. There were also no creation rules enforced, as a quick check reveals:

Highest reused password count: 12023 "stratfor"? 12023 "password"? 517 "password1"? 46 "Password1"? 24 "123456"? 625 "12345678"? 74 "jesus"? 2 "love"? 7 "war"? 1 "michael"? 39 "america"? 7 "xbox360"? 0 "heroes"? 0

Those last 2 are popular for the battlefield heroes dataset and other gaming- related ones, so I keep them in my script as gaming sites are both highly targeted and usually poorly secured.

Anyway, it's clear that no rules were enforced as a 3-letter dictionary word like "war" would never be allowed by any rule creation system. The fact that "stratfor" was used by nearly 1.4% of all accounts (!) tells me that either their users did not value these accounts or they simply have no idea how passwords are supposed to work.

<comment><USER8> How did you get a breakdown of all the passwords used? Did you try to crack them yourself, or has the cracked passwords been posted? I'm trying to figure out if my own password has been compromised.

<comment><USER9> All you need to do to figure out the hash for a password is take the MD5 hash of it. My guess is the commenter you replied to just took some common passwords and some no-brainers and did a quick little "find all" for each hash.

Here's a tool you can use to generate MD5 hashes for given passwords: <http://www.iwebtool.com/md5?string=stratfor>

Going from the hashes to the passwords requires brute forcing, dictionary attacks, that sort of thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> When downloading the file from the .onion URL given in the link, the archive contains a member "._stratfor_users.csv". Seems that this is some OS X metafile that also includes a UUID of some sort.

Anyone more familiar with the format? Does the UUID allow to identify the user that originally downloaded the CSV and/or posted the archive? (Assuming that you have access to Apple's or Google's data).

<comment><USER11> AppleDouble format version 2. Home file system is "Mac OS X". There are 2 entries in the file.

Format specifications for this file are available: <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1740>

General information on the file format: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleSingle_and_AppleDouble_fo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleSingle_and_AppleDouble_formats)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> naive question. Is it a violation of law to download these files? I dont want to be in any kind of trouble for five minutes of excitement.

edit: I currently live in the US.

<comment><USER13> I guess it depends on where you live... but I'm not touching anything with that much CC data in it.

Good luck.

<comment><USER14> I'm not sure merely _downloading_ the data from a public source is a crime, but I'm hiding behind academic research anyway.

<comment><USER15> How much cover does the "academic research" argument actually give? Any experience with that?

<comment><USER14> Not any first-hand, and I hope never to have to find out. Still, I suspect "I am an RA working with a security researcher and we're studying password strength" would go over better than "I'm curious", although they amount to the same thing. The respect and deference we afford institutions can be a bit strange, at times.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> About 10 years ago, American Express had a service where you could create one- time credit card numbers for using it online. I loved it.

For whatever reason, a couple of years later, they got rid of the service. It's times like these when a service like that would have been perfect.

<comment><USER16> So, Citi provides a similar "Virtual Account Number" service which allows a cardholder to create a new cc# with a new expiration date and a specific balance, but the billing address cannot be customized which reduces the usefulness of the service.

As far as I know, it's also free.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> If Anonymous thinks they're making a strike against American militarism with this, why didn't they hack some place that has more influence, like the American Enterprise Institute, which is blatantly ideological and employed a number of people who went on to the Rumsfeld Pentagon?

The people who support the Stratfor hack keep painting a picture of Stratfor which would far more accurately depict the mendacious hacks at AEI.

<comment><USER18> They hack whatever sites their scripts work on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Interestingly, <http://www.stratfor.com/> is "down for maintenance" at the moment.

</comment><comment><USER20> So what exactly has Stratfor done? I mean aside from posting their own (informed) articles and running a business?

These people aren't protesting anything reasonable anymore -- they are flat out against people who earn money. Personally I consider them traitors to America.

<comment><USER21> I'm a fan of Stratfor (I read it to get a handle on international news - <USER2> provide a background/context to enable me to understand what's going on, unlike traditional news), and I don't agree with this type of activity, but calling someone a traitor is a serious allegation, especially when these people are merely criminals and are not committing treason, which is what traitors do. Given that I don't understand the point of posting account details with password hashes, and CC#s - what are they trying to achieve?

<comment><USER22> _I read it to get a handle on international news - they provide a background/context to enable me to understand what's going on, unlike traditional news_

That sounds like it might be worth looking at. Is there a publicly accessible example you could provide a link to?

<comment><USER23> Unfortunately, their site has been down since the penetration. Even if it appears most of their content is not free, I signed up for their newsletter and received links to some articles regularly.

I highly recommend "The Geopolitics of the United States" series. Very well reasoned and clear explanation of the underpinning advantages of the US. It all clicked together so nicely.

No idea where you could find it now though.

Maybe these black hats should have snatched a copy of the content instead of these stupid mail spools.

<comment><USER24> John Mauldin frequently links to / references / includes excerpts from STRATFOR in his own newsletters. This is just an excerpt, but should give anyone curious a sense of the quality:

<http://www.johnmauldin.com/images/uploads/pdf/mwo082511.pdf></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>