Law suit shuts down Olson TZ database servers. - <AUTHOR> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.time.tz/4133 <comment><USER2> I've pulled the court documents via Bloomberg Law. The issue at hand is that Astrolabe owns copyright to the "ACS Atlas", consisting of both the "ACS International Atlas" and the "ACS American Atlas". Olson tz files specifically reference the "ACS Atlas" as a source for some tz data and allegedly incorrectly asserts that it is in the public domain. They sent a takedown notice in May 2011 and it was ignored. The FTP site is listed in the court filing and they are requesting a temporary injunction, a permanent injunction, and award of damages and attorney fees.

EDIT: The registered copyright they're referring to is here: [http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi- bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=tx...](http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi- bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?Search_Arg=tx0002101059&Search_Code=REGS&CNT=25&HIST=1)

<comment><USER3> The relevant quotes in tzdata are in the files (tzcode and tzdata are public domain):

northamerica:

      # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22):
      # A good source for time zone historical data in the US is
      # Thomas G. Shanks, The American Atlas (5th edition),
      # San Diego: ACS Publications, Inc. (1991).
      # Make sure you have the errata sheet; the book is somewhat useless without it.
      # It is the source for most of the pre-1991 US entries below.

europe:

      # From Paul Eggert (2006-03-22):
      # A good source for time zone historical data outside the U.S. is
      # Thomas G. Shanks and Rique Pottenger, The International Atlas (6th edition),
      # San Diego: ACS Publications, Inc. (2003).

As far as I know, even if the book is copyrighted, the raw information contained in it shouldn't be?

<comment><USER4> > the raw information contained in it shouldn't be?

That's correct. Supreme Court decision. Said decision is the reason why you occasionally read news articles about the U.S. considering some form of database protection laws - to make those databases protectable under law (and therefore to make this lawsuit legitimate).

<comment><USER5> Most European nations have database protection laws. Although limited in scope and doesn't prevent you from compiling an identical database from other sources, it has insane side-effects. In the Netherlands for instance, the zip- code database is copyright protected.

<comment><USER6> As is the train timetable info for the bizarre reason to block competition for a new tender.

<comment><USER7> So that's why the journey planners in NL are a complete fail (ns, 9292ov). Always wondered, since NL is quite up to date in general when it comes to IT.

<comment><USER6> Actually, there's a lot of work being done, as we speak to change the situation on various levels. In 2013 I believe there will be a public tender for a "National Public Transport Data Warehouse", 9292ov will be supervising it I think, not bidding though.

Then there's the openOV project, a new project bringing together data from lots of sources and talking to lots of transport companies and agencies. Most transport tenders include a clause requiring data to be supplied to "national journey planners", so there's hope. Just today they're working on GTFS feeds for most of the Netherlands.

The Dutch Railways (NS) now has an API but it's mainly consumer facing data, and nothing truely helpful.

tl;dr: Our transit APIs are stuck in 2005 but making headway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is the guy who has been tirelessly maintaining the timezone database for the past 25 years. You might not know about this, but timezones change a _lot_ , so it's quite a bit of good work. If you use any Linux or OS X system today, chances are you're using the ADO timezone database.

<comment><USER9> Java includes it too. Even if your system has it natively, Java includes a separate copy.

<comment><USER10> Tcl includes it too.

I wonder how this really _impacts_ ACS Publications. If they're just defending their work for the sake of exercising their copyright, perhaps they should have chosen to license the work to the DB. Especially considering the volunteer effort that the freely available Olsen TZ DB has been.

<comment><USER11> I think its exactly that. Its just copyright for the sake of copyright. As if Olson got stinking rich from tz_data.

<comment><USER10> I understand the copyright issue. It could be freely licensed though, and in fact generate goodwill rather than friction and lawyer fees.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I think its safe to say that each and every one of us, directly or indirectly owes Mr. Olson a pint of his favourite ale. I have a few projects using tz_data directly to maintain DST changes across multiple time zones and to be honest I don't know what I'll do if that database goes away. Its been taken for granted by many until now but I remember being screwed once just because I didn't update it to account for some changes in DST times. So if those updates are stopped we'll all be affected.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The court case is Astrolabe, Inc. vs. Arthur David Olson and Paul Eggert

[http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/copyright- lawsuits/massac...](http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/copyright- lawsuits/massachusetts-district-court/82641/astrolabe-inc-v-arthur-david- olson/summary/)

ETA: and here is a link to the complaint:

[http://www.scribd.com/doc/67760407/ASTROLABE-INC-Vs- ARTHUR-D...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/67760407/ASTROLABE-INC-Vs-ARTHUR-DAVID- OLSON-and-PAUL-EGGERT-Complaint)

</comment><comment><USER12> Wow, I am eagerly awaiting more news on this lawsuit.

I've seen this DB pop up a few times in my trials of having to deal with implementing timezone support, and it seemed like it was always referred to as the defacto standard lookup for TZ info...

As another poster mentions, Timezones are constantly in flux, especially DST rules, and so for this guy to spend his time keeping it maintained is an incredible service to the community. If you've never had to work with them, consider yourself lucky (and start learning now - cus you will sooner or later).

Any information on exactly what the lawsuit is actually about?

</comment><comment><USER13> Where can donations be made for his legal defense fund?

</comment><comment><USER14> Is Olson adequately represented?

<comment><USER11> Canonical/Red Hat/Novell or any big commercial Linux outfit should stand up right now. Its their problem too.

<comment><USER15> These guys are small fry compared to other users of the Olson database software:

IBM, Oracle, Apple, Google. There's your $500bn in market capitalization right there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Where is EFF now?

</comment><comment><USER17> Well, I think we have to fight this absolute nonsense. If Astrolabe prevailed in this case, which they will not, because their claim is ridicoulous, douchebag companies all around the world would try to do the same thing with other opensource projects.

If you want to set up a mirror yourself, to help spread around the data all over the world, have a look here: <http://github.com/canbuffi/tzmirror>

</comment><comment><USER18> The Archive Team made a mirror of the files in question:

[http://www.archive.org/details/archiveteam-munari-oz- au-2011...](http://www.archive.org/details/archiveteam-munari-oz-au-20111006)</comment>


Why We've Removed Longform from the App Store - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@longform/why-weve-removed-longform-from-the-app-store-823d599a34d4 <comment><USER2> > The app reviewer spelled out three changes we could make to be approved. We > were torn. Two of the changes were flat-out impossible, and the third would > require huge amounts of ongoing developer labor while providing a worse > experience for users.

Really wish they would have expanded on this....

<comment><USER3> ...and, crickets. I'm starting to suspect the authors know it would make them look bad to reveal what the three suggestions were.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is how to do an honest sunset of an app. We tried, we hustled and it sucks but we have to stop work. We'll still do more though, so you can keep your data, but this has been stressful as hell. Thanks for supporting us.

It just feels genuine.

<comment><USER3> I'm not so sure. I didn't find it open or genuine or helpful that they didn't say what the three problems were. Instead it left me wondering whether it was a slightly devious attempt to shift blame to Apple.

I've heard so many stories where Apple blocked something and initially caught the blame, but then later when the details came out, it became clear that the real problem was with the app features. Other than interest in blame (I'm not that interested in blame, really) it could be super useful to know the details so that other developers can see whether there's anything to learn here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm Apple-only yet this part made me sad:

> as we can't afford to support an Android orphan.

I much prefer iOS but the world doesn't need a monoculture. It's sad that the economics of Android are so dire for developers, even worse than for those on iOS.</comment>


How the Trump Campaign Used Facebook Ads to Win the Election - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@MedicalReport/how-the-trump-campaign-built-an-identity-database-and-used-facebook-ads-to-win-the-election-4ff7d24269ac#.1wmilha2n <comment><USER2> > This is the story of how the Trump campaign used data to target African > Americans and young women with $150 million dollars of Facebook and > Instagram advertisements in the final weeks of the election, quietly > launching the most successful digital voter suppression operation in > American history.

and

> "We have three major voter suppression operations under way," said a senior > Trump official. They're aimed at three groups Clinton needs to win > overwhelmingly: idealistic white liberals, young women, and African > Americans."

Wow.</comment>


Nature Special: The Autism Enigma - <AUTHOR> http://www.nature.com/news/specials/autism/index.html

<comment><USER2> I thought the most interesting piece in this series was the article about how autism can be a positive advantage in some areas of human activity, including science.

[http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v479/n7371/full/479033a...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v479/n7371/full/479033a.html)

It reminds me of Temple Grandin's line: "Who do you think made the first stone spear? That wasn't the yakkity yaks sitting around the campfire. It was some Asperger sitting in the back of a cave figuring out how to chip rocks into spearheads."

<comment><USER3> Nah, the spear was probably invented by some kind of ancient Feynman, who also got all the girls.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Autism sounds like truly a bad thing, truly a disease or bad health condition. But some of what the psychology profession considers to be in the autism "range", like Asperger's, instead sounds an awful lot to me like someone who's just smart and intellectual, and actually has a better/higher-functioning mind, than the average person. This would seem to be borne out by the fact that these "conditions" are more prevalent in scientists, engineers and their children. From my perspective, yes, people who have a much more powerful mind, greater analytical abilities, people who can think visually, three- dimensionally, hyper-logically, etc. are going to sound/look/act strange to people who don't do these things and don't have these abilities. But that doesn't mean it's bad. Or rather, it doesn't mean the "strange" person has something wrong or non-ideal about them -- it may be the "normal" person who's defective or non-ideal.

<comment><USER5> I understand, I think, what you're saying - that a lot of what is perceived as "wrong" with a person with Asperger's is simply a matter of differing perspective and differing levels/types of comprehension.

In some ways, I agree. I think a lot of the quirks in these cases aren't problems, just differences. However, that doesn't explain all of it.

For instance, what about the problems that many on the autism spectrum have with various types of sensory integration? It is often not simply a dislike of loud noises or certain textures of foods, but a physiological response to them, and one that can't always be re-trained.

Or, taking it one step further, I've heard from several people who have or whose children have Turette's Syndrome that it shares so many symptoms and similarities with Asperger's that it feels like it should be on the autism spectrum, itself - though it's currently not.

Sensory processing issues, tics, stimming, etc. can often be controlled to an extent, but not overcome.

Should a healthy brain that just works a bit differently still have these issues? Should it be able to adapt and cope with them? Should a more highly functional brain be more flexible in this regard, or less? I honestly don't know. Maybe our flexibility can be attributed more to our lack of perception rather than an abundance of it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think it's interesting how the focus of the Nature articles is on elucidating the process by which autism develops and affects people, and not on whatever coping mechanisms there are for people on ASD or their relatives. I don't think it is a bad thing, just a particular focus of their research.

On the one hand, it is immensely important to understand the biological basis of autism. But on the other, they say autism is not understood nearly well enough now, and there are many people on autism spectrum and their relatives/friends who need reasonable advice now, grounded in proper scientific research. Advice for high-functioning ASD people/relatives would presumably talk about developing social skills, coping behaviours, and whatever else is needed for them to function well in the wider society. Identifying the biological basis of ASD seems to be a long-term research programme with little payoff in the immediate future.

It's not that I think it's wrong to focus on the biology of it, it's just that they seem to completely skip the psychology aspect of ASD that is probably just as important.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm surprised there isn't more discussion (in general, on the internet) on the relationship between the autistic spectrum and programmers.

<comment><USER8> Because it's just bad science.

To quote from the article:

"But autism researchers Christopher Jarrold and David Routh at the University of Bristol, UK, pointed out that Baron-Cohen reported the analysis of data only for engineers, not for the other occupations surveyed. After analysing the same data, they found that fathers of children with autism were more likely to work in medicine, science and accountancy, as well as engineering, and less likely to have manual occupations. They suggested that these fathers were simply more likely to have reached a higher level of education."</comment></comment>


Google confirms Google Apps users will gain Google+ access - <AUTHOR> http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/40950/google-confirms-apps-users-google <comment><USER2> Wondering why this wasn't the case from the beginning?</comment>


Jobs Talks About His Rise and Fall - <AUTHOR> http://www.newsweek.com/1985/09/30/jobs-talks-about-his-rise-and-fall.print.html

<comment><USER2> [1985]

See also his interview in Playboy - <http://www.playboy.co.uk/print/print- article/item77251/>

which has been discussed here a few times

[http://www.google.com/search?q=jobs+playboy+site:news.ycombi...](http://www.google.com/search?q=jobs+playboy+site:news.ycombinator.com)</comment>


Inside the lab: Why Apple still sweats the details on iMac - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/backchannel/exclusive-why-apple-is-still-sweating-the-details-on-imac-531a95e50c91 <comment><USER2> >The input device, dubbed the Magic Mouse 2, would look to users exactly like the previous model....

>But one thing was totally unacceptable.

>The mouse didn't sound right.

Yes, everyone loves the Magic Mouse so much, nothing else could be improved in version 2, except for the sound, that has to be perfect, in a mouse.

<comment><USER3> Well, I do love the Magic Mouse so much. It's the best Mouse I've had -- from a history of crappy Apple (and earlier PC) mice, which includes SUN Spark's optical mice (which required a special mousepad) when nobody on their PC had optical mice yet...

Especially Apple's older mouse (with the too easy to jam with dirt wheel/ball) I really hated...

<comment><USER4> The Mighty Mouse is the old one, which they still sell for $49! I like the _idea_ of the ball better than a scroll wheel, but they clog after a week and are never the same again.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is a good write up, but as I was reading it I started to realize the brilliant marketing behind it, and potentially why I buy some Apple products. I wouldn't buy the mouse because Apple made it sound perfect. I would buy the mouse because this article makes me see how much effort Apple puts into making their products the best they can be. Whether or not they are actually the best products is almost irrelevant after eliciting that emotion.

<comment><USER6> The entire article is a marketing piece. The mouse is just a diversion.

For what it's worth, on my old Apple mouse, the battery lid frequently falls off. It's so annoying that I don't use it any more. This is an issue that has apparently been fixed as well.

<comment><USER7> > This is an issue that has apparently been fixed as well.

Well, they fixed it by just not including a removable battery (and it's lid).

<comment><USER6> Exactly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You also cannot use the new Magic Mouse v2 while charging. That's so stupid an oversight.

<comment><USER9> Are you sure about that? I haven't seen anything anywhere that suggests that. :-/

<comment><USER8> Look at how/where the Lightning cable is inserted on the bottom.

<comment><USER9> Yup... Looks like you're right. I can't imagine why they wouldn't have it plug in at the top. That does seem like a silly oversight.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> What do programmers think about 27inch iMac (2013)? I do not like it at all. The screen is too glossy (reflecting not just the overhead lights but more like a mirror). The screen is shaped like square rather than rectangle. This forces you to move your eyes/neck in all directions. And it has old noisy hard drives rather than SSDs.

I have removed the imac outer mirror screen to reduce glare [1] and am always resizing windows. Now I mostly use imac as external monitor for macbook, in target display mode. However, TDM is too fragile to use. For example, you need to login to your account in iMac before you can send the key signal via ssh from your laptop, otherwise the signal is ignored [2,3].

I can rant more about imac. For example, my imac speakers do not work. Apparently, some time when I removed my head phone, the imac sensors got stuck into believing that headphones are still plugged in [4].

With so many issues, I cannot believe that iMac is a labor of love, as the article suggests.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSF84EoQBvk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSF84EoQBvk)

[2] [https://superuser.com/questions/540799/sending-key-via- ssh-o...](https://superuser.com/questions/540799/sending-key-via-ssh-or-using- mouse-to-activate-target-display-mode)

[3] [https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5211301](https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5211301)

[4] [https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3694502](https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3694502)

</comment><comment><USER11> So, not only 4k pixels on the iMac 21", but also 25% improvement in colour gamut. This screen should look fantastic!

<comment><USER12> Just an honest question, but do you like the glossy screens? I personally get quite annoyed by them at times, and find matte screens to be a more relaxing (/dull) experience. The glossiness does however make the iMacs look good in stores. The colors a bit more vivid, and they also tend to show mostly whtie/bright footage on them which hides the mirroring effect.

<comment><USER3> If one has to use their laptop/desktop out in the sun (and in a fixed position), or under non controlled light, then a non-glossy is probably the better option.

Personally I love glossy screens. They get glare sometimes, under direct light, but nothing that an angle change can't fix. Besides I don't want to be using a laptop under direct light anyways -- and for a desktop which is used inside, that's a non issue.

Non glossy screens (which I started with), I now find smudgy and hazy, and with much worse (gray-ish) blacks.

Under controlled

</comment></comment></comment><comment> chris-at I bought a Magic Mouse a few years ago. I couldn't use it because getting the cursor from one side to the other required me to move the mouse so far that it caused shoulder pain. I had to replace it with a 1000 dpi Logitec.

Do the new mice have higher dpi as well?

<comment><USER13> One side of the screen to the other? With tracking speed set all the way up?

<comment> chris-at Yep. I had to "shuffle" to get it to move all the way.

<comment><USER13> That's really weird. I didn't love (or even particularly like) the mouse when I used one, but it was at least functional. I wonder if the one you had was physically defective somehow?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I wonder if this will be the apple mouse I finally like. Probably not, though! As much as I like their keyboards, their mice are terrible. I do like the trackpad, though.

Edit: I just realized they now do not offer a keyboard with a numpad. Crap.

<comment><USER15> They still do actually (the wired one). They just don't advertise it anymore:

[http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MB110LL/B/apple- keyboard-w...](http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MB110LL/B/apple-keyboard- with-numeric-keypad-english-usa)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Previous keyboard did work well for a short travel keys. Nothing extraordinary but decent when I had to use it. Otoh new switches are too far away from decent. Ecosystem, I get it.

</comment><comment><USER17> I use Logitech wireless mice with my Macs. When I was shopping for them I noticed that Bluetooth is not widely used. What's the reason for using a different wireless standard?

<comment><USER18> I can think of a few reasons:

1) You can tailor the wireless protocol to exactly your needs, rather than using something general purpose. That can help things like battery life and latency.

2) You don't have to work with buggy Bluetooth hardware or drivers that you don't make, and your hardware works with any computer with USB. Bluetooth was not common on PCs for a long time, especially on the desktop.

3) You can ship your peripherals pre-paired with the receiver, which means users don't need to do any setup besides plugging the receiver in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Can anyone explain why they don't put more RAM in modern Mac computers? I think I can remember debating 8 versus 16 almost ten years ago. Why are they still stuck on 8?

<comment><USER20> Because not everyone is a techie that reads HN. Most people I know, even many developers, could easily get by with 8g of RAM.

<comment><USER21> Its a struggle with 10.10 and 10.11. The RAM requirement went up and it is a lot more sluggish. I got a lot of complaints and we ended up putting 16g in every iMac. The airs just became painful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> No discreet graphics kind of kills the deal with the smaller model. 4k display powered by Intel graphics is a bitter pill.

<comment><USER23> I think if Apple put real graphics cards in the 21" models people would buy them instead of the 27" models, which is bad from Apple's perspective.

Having said that, Intel graphics should be able to adequately display 4K at this point. My MBP from 2013 can drive close to that (2560x1600 internal+1080p external) without a hitch.</comment></comment>


A Node.js microservices toolkit - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/hemerajs/hemera <comment><USER2> If it meets the guidelines, this might make a good 'Show HN'. Show HN guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> How is Hemera different from SenecaJS?? The API looks similar. Good work!

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi we want to create a toolkit which is responsible for everything expect the transport. We don't need overall transport independence. We trust in a well tested system called NATS. The wrong path in error-handling, logging and tracing are one of the reasons why we couldn't use existing solutions like SenecaJS. The API is very similiar to Seneca this is intentional.

<comment><USER2> Your comment would still have been appropriate without anyone asking a question.

<comment><AUTHOR> I came with the expectation that you have experience with SenecaJS. If you read my comment you would see that HemeraJS rely on a messaging bus called NATS. We focus on clean error handling that implicit error-first-callbacks. Logging is consistent. One of the most complex parts of a software which provide building a microservice architecture will be handled by the messaging bus NATS - Service discovery, client pruning and load balancing. Hemera has a very small core but it is also very modular. You can create plugins, middlewares and more. We already provide lots of plugins for different categorys e.g data-serialization (JSON, Msgpack, Avro), Database adapter( Elasticsearch, Couchbase, SQL or Arangodb) Payload validators (Joi, Parambulator) We also provide a plugin for monitoring your system with Zipkin. I hope you have now a better picture. Otherwise you could visit the github project. I invest a lot of time in the documentation. Thanks!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


A 125-year-old delivery network that feeds Mumbai - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170114-the-125-year-old-network-that-keeps-mumbai-going <comment><USER4> > "We've known this person so long we know he'll do a proper job."

> The delivery schedule also has built-in buffers. If a delivery is due at > 13:00, the dabbawala will aim for around 12:00 [...] For every 15 to 20 > dabbawalas there is also always someone on stand-by in case one of them gets > delayed.

> At 12:45 a dabbawala races around the corner on a bike and rushes shouting > into an office building. [...] The dabbawala was late by his own standards > but the customer was probably never aware of the hiccup, he says.

> A dabbawalas' commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly > 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially > unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain > prestige.

> And as a cooperative all dabbawalas are equal partners with supervisors > called mukadams who are elected.

It seems like there's no major secret here. The key to achieving such things is... surprise surprise... treating your workers fairly and paying them well so they actually give a shit about their job, and feel appreciated and proud of what they do. The same would actually translate to many other industries.

The food delivery startups could achieve the same if they paid their delivery drivers fairly (at the moment most don't even make _minimum wage_ \- compared to the dabbawalas' "good salary") instead of pissing away their money into marketing/advertising or into someone's pocket, whether greedy investors or "engineers" to build a blockchain-based, Kubernetes-powered microservices playground.

<comment><USER5> > 12k rupees/month

> good wage

That's unlivable wage.

Also, those companies you have listed pay more.

<comment><USER6> For unskilled labour in India, that's _very_ good money. The average wage in India is around 350-400 INR per day worked

<comment><USER7> But Swiggy etc pay 25-50k

[https://www.livemint.com/Companies/cYbdfsYk93HFhMuC0XgaNN/Sw...](https://www.livemint.com/Companies/cYbdfsYk93HFhMuC0XgaNN/Swiggy- Zomato-hike-delivery-boy-salaries-as-competition-gro.html)

<comment><USER8> I am curious, is there any reason why dabba people don't switch to Swiggy for job? If they'll make more there.

<comment><USER9> Dabbawalas are more involved with transporting home cooked food to the worker. The worker leaves early in the morning and some time later the spouse will have a hot meal packed up. The dabbawala will come pick it up and aggregate orders going to common destinations, move it by train, etc. I presume Swiggy is only for restaurant cooked food.

Secondly the dabbawala jobs are more like a stable union job. You don't get the top money but everyone looks after each other. Of course with time customer preferences may change towards restaurant food. Or maybe workers start using plastic containers and microwaves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> >"The new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it."

Miniscule labor costs and scant workers rights.

The "gig" economy is simply replicating in the west what has already existed in highly stratified societies for generations now that wealth inequality has finally reached a point where it can be profitable.

<comment><USER11> I visited Pakistan a few years ago, my homeland, after some 20 years of being in the states.

I was being driven around by my 18 year old cousin. At some point, just completely randomly, some youngin' \- I would estimate about 15 years of age, entered the car, in the backseat. My Urdu was a little off, I couldn't make out exactly what had happened, I assumed the guy was my cousin's friend.

No, it turns out he was just doing a chore for a few pennies.

It's the strangest fucking thing, dealing with these people. They're always there, just one command away. Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me. But in that part of the world, if you look a certain way and dress a certain way, these folks will come to you for chores for a few pennies -- and they will almost present themselves as if they are lesser persons than you. And I would be speechless in those situations, I wouldn't know what to do or say. That properly fucked me in the head for a good while.

<comment><USER12> >>Being in America, I say my thank yous to cashiers or anyone of lesser means, exchange pleasantries, I never see them as lesser humans than me.

So I'm not saying that you do obviously, but when I visited America I found it really jarring how all hospitality people were behaving almost like....servants. I saw what felt like a huge amount of fake smiles and pleasantries , just to make sure I feel happy as a customer, and presumably an attempt to get a larger tip. It felt like people were avoiding direct eye contact and their body language seemed as if they were naturally assuming a position of a "lesser" status just to keep you happy.

Again, that's just from a few visits over to America - maybe I was just very unlucky. But I had it every time in different cities.

<comment><USER13> There are a lot of things in US that feel like pleasantries - the tipping culture promotes this sort of thing.

As an American, I disagree with the "servant" class attitude that you found in America. It is completely opposite, in fact, in a bad way sometimes. Middleclass Americans feel entitled about being able to do certain things and if that privilege is taken away, they will create chaos. In general, Americans have enterprising values - work hard, be pragmatic, meritocracy, avoid formalities and generally have intense sense of optimism. Americans engage in risk taking, especially in the upper middle class.

10 core American values: [https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html](https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/USValues.html)

It is not a perfect place, rather a mosiac of various cultures. I've visited India (spent 9 months) and the diversity in India is quite staggering - literally every state is like its own country. However, there is little race diversity and internationalisation. America is a land of immigrants, good tolerance to other cultures and the idea of individualism is deeply rooted in the soul of this nation. Korean person could be found eating at an Egyptian restaurant, both the person and the restaurant owners are Americans. In India, I found almost casual racism - literally everywhere from advertisements to how the North (light skinned) treats the South (dark skinned) Indians.

Of all nations I've had the chance to explore and understand - <USER2> culture has the most "hierarchical" notion of society. I've worked with Japanese engineers who are afraid to speak up or mess up in order to avoid pissing off their superiors. The "servant" attitude you speak of - that is fully manifested in Japan - as a lifelong duty to serve others, excel in what you do and expect nothing in return (no tips in Japan). I admire certain aspects of it and it creates a peaceful harmony in the society. There are Japanese terms to explain it more clearly, I can't recall them.

<comment><USER14> looks like "Omotenashi" in Japan.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> For a nice introduction to the subject of Mumbai Dabawallahs I would strongly recommend watching "The Lunchbox" [1] starring the late Irfan Khan. A great actor tragically taken from us at a relatively young age.

Beautiful movie. Enjoy.

[1] [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0)

<comment><USER16> +1. A slow, naturalistic movie that's also conventionally entertaining. Plus, as a timely feature, one of the protagonists spends a bunch of time standing on crowded trains, sitting in a crowded office, and eating lunch in a crowded canteen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> While it is always good for executives to learn how long-established and well- run things work, it looks to me a lot in this system depends on the social context of Mumbai (or other big cities in India): big income disparity and the prevalence of stay at home domestic partners. I mean the first example in the article is a stock broker who has food delivered from home, cooked by their spouse.

Why would this work in countries with a set minimum wage, double income households, and restaurants that have to be able to maintain their margins after delivery fees (something that domestic partners do not have to do)?

<comment><USER18> +1 The social context is what's missed in interpretation by outsiders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> There's an awesome film that interestingly uses this food delivery network - The Lunchbox ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2350496/)).

It stars recently passed away actor Irrfan Khan, Nimrat Kaur (she's in Homeland), and Nawazuddin Siddiqui. They are among the finest from here. It has Max Richter's music and is on Indian Netflix (not sure about rest of the world).

</comment><comment><USER20> > A dabbawalas' commitment to the job is partly because it pays well – roughly > 12,000 rupees (£140) a month, a good salary in India for what is essentially > unskilled labour. The fame of the dabbawalas also gives the job a certain > prestige.

Similar to being a bicycle messenger. You could make $20 an hour if you're efficient, which is more than working at a big box chain or delivering for a ridesharing service, and it has prestige.

Source: [https://www.breakawaycourier.com/news-and- blog/2011/8/3/how-...](https://www.breakawaycourier.com/news-and- blog/2011/8/3/how-much-money-do-bike-messengers-really-make.html)

</comment><comment><USER21> Dumb question here - why don't people take their own lunch to work? I know there are valid reasons, can someone help me understand?

<comment><USER22> In Mumbai, the person working is likely to leave early (say before 7am). The person cooking (typically mom or spouse) gets to lunch later, around 10:30 and it gets delivered. Most Indian food is not great when eaten cold. This also avoids needing to buy and store vegetables since you can get to the market in the morning and buy what you need for the day.

It makes life easier for all concerned.

<comment><USER23> It does rely on having a "homemaker" who is not working and stays at home to cook; in many other countries that's not really an option for the majority of workers as both spouse and mom (if not very old) would be working.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> "3.4 mistakes per million deliveries". There are lessons to be learned from these guys, but I think definition of a mistake and this stat in general is, well, flexible.

<comment><USER8> It would be interesting if someone makes a complaint portal for Dabba Walla and post some statistics on how many real complaints do you actually receive.

<comment><USER25> It would certainly be interesting, however in the absence of hard data perhaps some anecdotal evidence is better than no information:

Case 1 \</comment></comment></comment><comment> 10 years x 280 deliveries per year x 2 deliveries per day (pick up + drop) = 5600 deliveries.

Number of mistakes = 0

That puts the error rate at < 1/5600 (or approximately 0.0002).

Case 2 \</comment><comment> 4 years x 280 deliveries per year x 2 deliveries per day (pick up + drop) = 2240

Number of mistakes = 0

That puts the error rate at < 1/2240 (or approximately 0.0004).

Both cases together \</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

Error rate < 0.00012

</comment><comment><USER26> Moved to Thane, which is right next to Mumbai around six months ago.

Although not really related, but I get a good meal of my choice at roughly INR 70($1)/meal , and I can order in between snacks for a smaller price if needed. And I can stand their while it's cooked or not, all at the comfort of just going to an apartment that is next to mine. It's cheap, healthy and convenient. At my work place, I can't decide the food I want, and I pay 3 times more.

<comment><USER27> Yes, a fair amount of middle/lower-middle class women in big cities in India make some side cash with this system. Basically just cooking extra portions of lunch and dinner of whatever they're making that day anyway and feeding the busy single neighbours for a very reasonable amount.

<comment><USER28> H4 spouses in the US do the same.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Another point I might add: Please factor in the rate of unemployment and the limited choices for labor when measuring the happiness of these "unskilled" workers.

I agree that we can learn a lesson of efficiency from these guys, but I don't agree that we can learn a lesson of cooperative society and sharing of dividends.

Lack of exposure means we rationalize the existing situation and convince ourselves that this is good. I'm sure there are some dabbawalas thinking "It is what it is. There are no other jobs available, so I might as well."

<comment><USER18> In other words, they are making a system work, doesn't mean that the system is right in the first place and is universally applicable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> The Dabbawalas "secret" is: - built on top of public transit: dramatically lower cost, no need to pay for gas - have a pre set schedule and demand / not on-demand: enable huge supply chain optimization. These 2 are the key differences between the dabbawalas and uber eats supply chains.

Uber can also does similar optimizations if they offer a lunch subscription service that u pre-book ur lunches.

\- uses vanes to do batch pick up / drop off: restaurants (small van)-> local hub (large van)-> destination local hub -> final mile delivery on bike / foot.

This will provide efficient supply chain to keep cost down and reliable if theres enough demand.

However, demand might be low because US customers looking to save money are used to pack their own lunch and microwave at work. This is not an option in Mumbai because of crowed train in rush hour.

</comment><comment><USER30> Fascinating topic and read.

You can see it in their smile and hear it in their tone...these people take a rare sense of pride in their work. Dabbawalas appear to be a happy, grateful, and fulfilled workforce that do a sufficient job. Add in the cultural prestige and this model strikes me as very tough to compete with. So why?

What aspect of this current approach is broken or inefficient like to the point of justifying the time, money and effort to compete with as a startup? (I didn't gather that part from the article). Is it marginal food cost?

Is it merely because it's a big market operating the old-school way and therefore easy money is being thrown at trying to capture share or supplant using apps? No wonder these ventures are having a tough go at things...seems to me as a solution seeking a problem.

<comment><USER31> Nothing has to be broken for a startup or a big corp to attempt to make money themselves.

There's money to be made in offering choices - enough money to justify the expenditure in getting something new up and running, seemingly.

Speaking of solutions seeking a problem, early on in my career I was at a blockchain startup of sorts, though I have no idea what blockchain work they actually did. I got a few offers from other blockchain companies too, and I could never figure out what problem they were solving that a database wouldn't solve even better.

<comment><USER32> Separating investors from their money is a problem more easily solved with blockchain that a run of the mill database.

<comment><USER31> You say that like they're mutually exclusive!

One project, a custom Ethereum based coin was running behind on time - <USER3> way, way behind. A DB based system was delivered as a prototype (where I noticed floats were used for transaction amounts!), and since the coin was "cloud native", whatever that means, it stayed that way. Client did ask for source code but the company wasn't able to serve that, for obvious reasons...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> There is a Top Gear bit on Dabbawala, part of the India Special iirc, which is quite informative in addition to the usual tone of the show.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIDvr7NNwo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIDvr7NNwo)

</comment><comment><USER34> Of course, you know that this system is able to exist only because the office workers have odd food preferences, and the delivery people get paid like shit, and there's tons of people willing to do the job for such low wage?

If the alternative to having this service is me just carrying a small tin box along with me to work, what are the odds I'm going to shell out $10 each time if it were implemented in any country that has a Western minimum wage?

<comment><USER35> perhaps you should read the article

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Very interesting system. I wonder if this could work with regular gig economy as it exists in the US.

Why aren't there more co-operative businesses here? What stops taxi drivers or gig workers from forming a co-op with decent benefits?

</comment><comment><USER37> I actually a Spanish startup that was partially inspired by this.

The difference is that one person delivers many dishes in a ride, so costs can be cut and wages can be higher.

It's actually doing pretty well and expanding on many cities in the country.

</comment><comment><USER38> " new wave of food-delivery start-ups wants to know how they do it."

Umm is this really a question? Near destitute poverty level wages and quality of life.

</comment><comment><USER39> Everytime a story about India is posted the HN crowd picks apart the negatives of Indian society like caste or poverty. That's the first comment I see when I get here. Always.

STOP THIS!

If you want to focus on the negativity start a separate thread imagine every story about the valley bringing up it's inherent white privilege or racism as the first comment.

<comment><USER13> This is not how HN works.

Criticism and counter points are the reason why I come here. Taking offense to criticism is how we regress as a society. It has nothing to do with racism except that its a construct in one's mind based on prior experiences, biases and taking excessive pride in one's identity/culture. One can still do that, but that should not mean the public is barred from criticism.

<comment><USER39> This is a false equivalence. I bet if HN audience were mostly minorities every story would not be critical of non-western cultures.

<comment><USER13> What's wrong with criticism of minorities?

<comment><USER39> Entitlement.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why would useless MOV instructions speed up a tight loop in x86_64 assembly? - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/tangentstorm/coinops/tree/junkops <comment><USER2> This is Core 2, so it still has the P6's micro architectural limitation that it can only read two (or three?) values from the register files each cycle. But it's a 4-way processor, so it can potentially need up to 8 operands. If the other operands are on the bypass networks, it's fine. If not, then the CPU stalls. My guess would be that the MOV has the effect of keeping an operand on the bypass network long enough to avoid a stall. Totally guessing, though, but that might explain why it's so sensitive to instruction ordering.

<comment><USER3> Sorry, this explanation is almost surely incorrect. How long something is available on the bypass network is determined by how long the instruction that produces the value takes to "exit" the pipeline. I can't imagine any scenario where a consumer instruction causes a producer instruction (i.e., an instruction "ahead" of it) to stall. Note this would be a dangerous design point because of the risk of deadlocks.

What's the source for your claim that the Core uarch's register file is underdesigned in comparison to the dispatch width? I'd be extremely surprised if this were the case. Last time I looked at the data, about 50-70% of the reads go to the register file _not_ the bypass network.

<comment><USER2> The P6 has only two read ports in its permanent register file for operand values: [http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~afek/p6tx050111.pdf](http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~afek/p6tx050111.pdf) (p. 36). P-M upped it to three, and Sandy Bridge removed the limitation completely.

Intel's optimization manual describes the stall: [http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/manual/64-ia-32-archite...](http://www.intel.com/content/dam/doc/manual/64-ia-32-architectures- optimization-manual.pdf) (184.108.40.206, "ROB Read Port Stalls.").

The optimization manual mentions examples of the stall occurring when e.g. often-used constants are stored in registers, or when a load is hoisted "too high" and the value "goes cold" before its consumers use it.

Agner Fog's manual has a discussion starting on p. 69, 84 of his manual: [http://www.agner.org/optimize/microarchitecture.pdf](http://www.agner.org/optimize/microarchitecture.pdf). Note his use of an unnecessary MOV to "refresh" a register to avoid the stall.

I only glanced at the code quickly, but the comment about how he got rid of a load by holding a value in a register made me think the load was keeping the value from "going cold." Of course, I didn't profile it so I'm probably completely wrong...

<comment><USER3> Thanks for that that those very interesting links. But I still don't think that is what is going on here.

In designs which rename using the ROB, the register file holds values produced by instructions which are completed and retired, the ROB holds values from instructions that are completed but _not_ retired, and the bypass network supplies values from instructions currently completing.

What Agner is doing in his example with the seemingly useless instruction is transferring a value from the the register file to the ROB so that instructions which try to read logical register ECX will now source it from the ROB instead of the register file. But when I look at the code in the stack overflow question, _nothing actually reads_ from s1. So these are even "more useless" instructions than Agner's example.

Some people have already mentioned instruction alignment issues, so that is one likely explanation. There are a whole bunch of other possible issues involving the scheduler and dispatch restrictions. For example, I've seen processors where there were two pipelines with slightly different instruction schedulers. So adding a useless instruction like this might push your bottleneck instruction into a pipe with a scheduler that is slightly better for your code. Sometimes bypassing across different pipes is more expensive than within the same pipe, so again the useless instruction might push some instructions into pipes that have more of their sources. It could one of any number of reasons and it's going to be very hard to tell from the outside without knowing the details of the microarchitecture.

<comment><USER2> For some reason I thought I read in the original question that he'd replaced the MOV with an equivalent string of NOOPs, but now that I read the example again I clearly just made that up in my head... In that case, I agree that it's probably an instruction alignment issue, specifically the MOV pushing some group of instructions to align better into the 16-byte fetch/decode window. It'd be interesting if someone can run the code on Sandy Bridge+ and see if the useless MOV still helps. The decoded u-op cache should take a lot of the instruction alignment issues off the table.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Sorry for the off topic discussion, but I would like to give some attention to FreePascal. In my opinion, it is a great piece of software, and is so underrated. If you find C/C++ too error-prone or hard to learn, Object Pascal is a very good alternative. FreePascal is a multi-platform, Delphi compatibe Object Pascal compiler, can generates pretty optimized native code for multiple architectures (including ARM) and has plenty of libraries. If you already hadn't, please give Lazarus[1] a try, it's a nice RAD IDE (very similar to Borland Delphi 7) shipped with the FreePascal compiler.

[1] - [http://lazarus.freepascal.org](http://lazarus.freepascal.org)

<comment><USER5> Does this have _anything whatsoever_ to do with the posted topic? There must be some connection, and I'm twisting my brain trying to figure out what it is.

<comment><AUTHOR> The source file in question is in Pascal, and the author suggested downloading Free Pascal to test it.

[https://github.com/tangentstorm/coinops/blob/junkops/sha256_...](https://github.com/tangentstorm/coinops/blob/junkops/sha256_mjw.pas)

<comment><USER5> Oh, whoops. I saw the two ".py" extensions and figured it was a python project.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I highly recommend the Stanford EE380 video "Things CPU Architects Need To Think About". Even though it is from 2004, much of the material is still relevant. Bob Colwell notes that they had similar unexpected throughput slowdowns when implementing the P6 and Netburst processor cores, and discovered that adding random delays cleared them out. The cause for throughput hiccups could be traced back, sometimes hundreds or thousands of instructions, but were extremely difficult to address. They also found that manufacturing assembly lines had similar problems that were also addresses by adding delay.

[http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ay0304.html](http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ay0304.html) (18 Feb 2004, site appears to be having issues at the moment)

<comment><USER7> It's such a good talk. There's even the point where he almost says "we're sorry" regarding Pentium 4, at the time where a lot of people still believed Intel's marketing that it's "the best." I understood him, as the application I worked on at the time was significantly faster on the Pentium M than on the Pentium 4.

<comment><USER6> I also love the bit about the floating point divide non-optimisation, and how it turned into a success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting, relevant paper mentioned in response to the linked SO question:

 _MAO - an Extensible Micro-Architectural Optimizer_ \- [http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrust...](http://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/research.google.com/en/us/pubs/archive/37077.pdf)

<comment><USER9> There are figures on page 6 that answer the OP's question directly. And there's also this money quote: "Building an accurate model for modern processors is virtually impossible."

<comment><USER2> A good way to test that would be to insert NOP's of the right length in place of the MOV to see if its an alignment or predictor line sharing issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The code keeps using high registers for no discernible reason, instead of sticking with EAX--EDI; this means that each instruction is 1 byte longer than it could be.

This has consequences to the instruction fetching and decoding circuitry, where (in the Core 2) you can only read 16 instruction bytes per cycle (or 6 instructions). It is possible that the extraneous MOV instructions are just resulting in a better instruction alignment.

<comment><AUTHOR> _The code keeps using high registers for no discernible reason_

The function[1] inside of which the assembly is located declares a lot of variables as well. I don't know how well Free Pascal does register allocation, but perhaps this avoid clobbering the registers it prefers. Alignment seems like a likely candidate, but isn't likely to explain why the exact ordering of the extra ops makes a difference.

Would help to see the assembly for the whole function.

[1] [https://github.com/tangentstorm/coinops/blob/junkops/sha256_...](https://github.com/tangentstorm/coinops/blob/junkops/sha256_mjw.pas)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm not sure that I'm buying that a 0.7% time difference is anything other than noise after only 25 runs.

</comment><comment><USER12> Adding a MOV shifts subsequent instructions and can relieve deleterious aliasing in the branch prediction buffer.

Here's a full explanation (with references and links to the diagnostic tools): [http://stackoverflow.com/a/17906589/1001643](http://stackoverflow.com/a/17906589/1001643)

</comment><comment><USER13> The answer can be one of a billion reasons: dependency chain breaking, register renaming deficiencies, alias breaking, etc.

First step needs to be the hardware performance counters. Usually it will tell you something interesting, but leave you scratching your head.

Then you find a friend at intel, who laughs, and explains some wildly esoteric detail of the core2 processor that causes this.

This is why scheduling and register allocation models in compilers don't bother with ILP based modeling for x86 processors. Even if you modeled the _externally published_ architecture perfectly, including port restrictions, decode lengths, branch stalls, cycle counts, register requirements, etc, the processor just does whatever it wants internally anyway, because they don't really give you all the details.

</comment><comment><USER14> In my experience the timing jitter on a general-purpose PC - the typical difference between runs of the same code on the same data - is in the ballpark of a couple of percent (and no, back-to-back runs aren't fully independent of each other so you can't average it out over a couple of dozen runs).

The claimed timing difference was less than one percent so while I certainly can't say it wasn't real, I'm not seeing any evidence that it was.

</comment><comment><USER15> From the stackoverflow page:

>randomly inserting nop instructions in programs can easily increase performance by 5% or more, and no, compilers cannot easily exploit this.

Could someone please help me understand why this isn't exploitable? Surely one could just tack a module onto the end of the compiler that bruteforces this? Or something like a genetic algo to trial & error it.

</comment><comment><USER16> Shouldn't something like this be measured using #CPU ops per CPU-time instead of just 'seconds'?</comment>


The Glitch That Will Help Kill Bitcoin  - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-11/the-glitch-that-will-kill-bitcoin.html

<comment><USER2> Wow. Bias much? FUD much? It hadn't occurred to me that competing Big Financial interests could be behind the coordinated attacks today until I took in the smarmy, gloating intonations of this article.</comment>


Companies from Y Combinator's Summer 2017 Demo Day (Day 2) - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/22/yc-demo-day-s17-day-2/?utm_source=tcfbpage&sr_share=facebook <comment><USER2> Can't wait to see how "CocuSocial" is received in France.

</comment><comment><USER3> My sleeper out of the bunch: Loop Support sounds like a really awesome idea.

Companies will pay tens of thousands of dollars/month to hire good support staff. If Loop can automate easy tickets away with a knowledge base (with NLP/ML + humans), the unit economics of their pricing seems really good. Any company with a large volume of non-technical support tickets could benefit from Loop. Does anyone know how competitive the space is?

Some advice to Loop founders though: please learn how to design a website - looks like a badly clobbered Bootstrap job.

</comment><comment><USER4> Great variety of companies, really looking forward to some of the biotech in particular. I am a bit worried about Vanido (The singing app), though, as for me (With no ability) a 34% improvement might leave me in the same place ;).

</comment><comment><USER5> Entocycle stood out to me as having significant long-term prospects. Bug protein is a fundamentally disruptive product at a time when demand for sustainable protein is growing all over the world.

<comment><USER6> From what I've heard, the problem isn't finding customers, the problem is breeding and raising bugs at scale. I think if you solve the scale problem, you will be successful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> >The startup hopes to someday be the "Monsanto of Cannibis."

Not sure that's a comparison I'd invite in that market.

<comment><USER8> The marketing choices are interesting. I don't think we'll see that line in their B2B copy. The names Covetly and PreDxion feel like a tonal mismatch for their more rulebound audiences. The cartoonish visuals of Construct Simply and CarDash also feel a bit off relative to a pick-up truck or motor oil ad. But in those cases, the clients often drag the service providers to the platform.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Lots of startups are basically existing ideas, just for India. Looks like YC is doubling down on that particular economy.

<comment><USER10> Copying an existing idea into a new market is incredibly lucrative. It's also a lot easier than coming up with something new.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> What's the difference between Flowspace ( AWS for warehousing) and already existing Flexe ?

<comment><USER12> Could be just YC-level focus on execution. That was enough for a lot of previous companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Are most of these companies using bootstrap as a JS template? This look feels very familiar.

<comment><USER14> The couple I looked at were on Wordpress or React.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Piggy (piggy.co.in), the "Vanguard for India"!

Just wow. Now there is a concept that sells itself. It's easy to see the Total Addressable Market potential. Savings institutions such as Vanguard and BlackRock are completely embedded in our lives. Every high school student who graduating this summer was probably given the same advice to start saving early and I'm guessing for those who did, many selected a Vanguard fund. At least those not speculating in BTC and ETH.

For Asia's emerging middle class, solving the problem of where to safely invest for generational periods of time looks daunting but enormously rewarding. Am interested in hearing about all aspects of the issues and Piggy's solution. What are the cultural roadblocks to getting young Indian professionals who just want to spend on travel, living material goods, etc. to think about investing long term? What comprises the funds holdings? How do you solve the issue of liquidity? Are you considering developing your own products such as market ETFs for direct investment?

<comment><USER16> The concept isn't novel. In fact, I would argue that they're late to this game. I am using Scripbox for a while which works fine. As I see, they're not launching their own fund, they would be investing in existing ones, which kind of makes "Vangaurd for India" a misnomer.

I think the addressable market is huge, partly because the major things allowed in the tax saving section 80 (C) are life insurance premium, a government backed retirement fund (PPF), and long term mutual funds. The last one is the easiest to invest into. That means it's relatively easy to onboard working professionals if they are want to save tax in that section.

One issue is that the public isn't knowledgable enough about merits of equity markets. For some, it's a gamble and would rather go with fixed-rate funds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think there is definitely a market for OneLocal[0]. I've been renovating my house lately and dealing with trades is a mess. I had a few very reputable AC guys come in and quote on installing a unit. After they left there was no follow up whatsoever... no email, no text, no call, not even automated stuff. If OneLocal could solve that problem they could probably help SMBs convert more customers.

0- [http://info.onelocal.com/for-business](http://info.onelocal.com/for- business)

<comment><USER17> I did some work for a company doing this for home improvement contractors back...geez, it must have been a decade ago. The problem is they don't respond to middlemen like this any more than they do end customers. It's a lot of work to manage them, even just on the customer relationship side of their business.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Looks like pretty impressive monthly revenues for some of them eg. Leon & George. If YC is the first investor (which is what I expect) they have done very well being bootstrapped so far.

<comment><USER6> I don't understand Leon & George though (plant delivery). The TC bio talked about finding the right plant for your space. Seems like they just sell a few plants. I can walk into any florist, garden store or even IKEA and get the same or better selection. So the value prop is delivery I guess? But does delivery large plants across the country scale?

<comment><USER19> Bloom & Wild ([https://www.bloomandwild.com/](https://www.bloomandwild.com/)) do flower delivery and they're doing very well. They're only in the UK at the moment, but I think they have plans to expand internationally.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Dating site for muslims? When did YC start funding for ideas like these?

Don't the normal dating sites already cater to everyone?

<comment><USER21> [https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/03/yc-backed-muzmatch- definit...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/03/yc-backed-muzmatch-definitely- doesnt-want-to-be-tinder-for-muslims/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Retool sounds great. I've wasted so much of my time building internal tools that are relatively simple and are just a bunch of forms and always thought that finding an easy way to build internal tools is a massive market opportunity. But I wonder if it's even possible to create a one size fits all solution. Hope they find a way.

<comment><USER23> Sounds good, but there is no information about how it actually works.

EDIT: They had a show HN post a couple of months ago [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14515494](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14515494)

<comment><USER22> Ah, that gives a bit background. The visual programming language sounds cool. Would love to play with it. About to set up a internal tool architecture and so far it looks like it's gonna be react toolkit + separate graphql endpoint.

<comment><USER24> What's your email? I'll shoot you a live demo!

<comment><USER22> Sure thing, just pinged you an email to your profile addy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I am a bit puzzled by OneLocal.

It looks like it's a review generation / marketing automation / CRM solution for small businesses.

Just off the top of my mind, i can think of the following venture backed companies that do the same (at least on the reviews / marketing for SMB front):

\- BirdEye

\- Podium.com

\- DemandForce

\- Signpost

\- Yodle

\- Womply

\- Broadly.com

\- Yext

What am I missing?

<comment><USER26> And don't forget TeamLeader.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Strange (51) First day and (57) second day = (108) total on the record companies only a single one on CryptoCurrency/Blockchain technology.

BTW Does anyone knows how many off the record presentations, the batch official numbers are around (125).

Edit: one company dharma.io

<comment><USER28> there is dharma.io on second day.

<comment><USER27> ok, only one company.

<comment><USER29> The article (oddly) doesn't mention it, but Surematics is blockchain based - [https://surematics.com/](https://surematics.com/)

<comment><USER30> I don't think that's odd at all. We should be doing away with our reverence for this or that technology. Ultimately if there's no token/coin involved, it's none of our business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It surprises me how successful these companies are already. I don't think to have more than $20K MRR is any less than having a product-market fit (of a lesser scale, maybe). It's almost as if YC is not taking bets at all because the companies that are applying seem to know well what are they solving. And although it's not obvious from the article, it sounds like they scaled to that revenue pretty quick (comparatively, to say the least).

If I compare with the companies in the batch 5-6 years ago, the difference seems conspicuous. Where are the companies like Segment, AnyPerk that were struggling to find a product-market fit and presumably, were working on bad ideas? The companies who wouldn't have a good answer to what they're solving and why? There are bets, like Greo, Goosbump, which would find it hard to attain a sustainable revenue, but I think the numbers are still low.

Paul Graham used to insist that their first priority is the team, but I think they have inadvertently raised the bar. Or, it could mean that startup wisdom of building MVP, talking to users, has become mainstream to warrant the decline in the bad ideas.

<comment><USER26> It's actually pretty easy to explain.

YC has global reach and is now very well known. That increases the applicant pool and that in turn means there are more _quality_ applications as well. Having a larger pool of quality applications means that it becomes easier to select companies before a batch is considered 'full', lower quality applications will therefore have a much smaller chance of getting selected in a given batch.

So even if YC's first priority hasn't changed at all there is still a very plausible explanation for the effect you are seeing.

<comment><USER31> I'd argue it's just much easier to get to $20k MRR than it used to be. A lot of companies barely have traction before YC and get it during YC, and $20k isn't that hard to get to.

<comment><USER32> MRR without in isolation, without churn, CAC or WoW growth is fairly meaningless. It's basically just a different way to report run rate.

You can buy 20k in MRR with your YC investment, just for a pop at demo day. Keeping up growth is another thing all together.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I was expecting Slik[1] to be on this list. Anyone know why it was not included? There were quite a few articles about this company since it was founded by a 15 year old and a 16 year old [2].

There was also a WSJ article[3] today though I did not read it since it's paywalled. Anyway to read the article?

[1] [https://blog.ycombinator.com/get-automated-leads-from-a- data...](https://blog.ycombinator.com/get-automated-leads-from-a-database- of-70-million-people-with-slik-yc-s17/)

[2] [http://betakit.com/slik-ais-founder-the-youngest-canadian- en...](http://betakit.com/slik-ais-founder-the-youngest-canadian-entrepreneur- to-join-y-combinator/)

[3] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/teen-duo-behind-slik-to- present...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/teen-duo-behind-slik-to-present- moneymaker-at-y-combinator-1503372945)

<comment><USER27> _> this company since it was founded by a 15 year old and a 16 year old_

Great to see such young entrepreneurs, who is the CEO? even in Delaware I think you must be over 18.

<comment><USER27> Show HN: Slik Prospector – Find Anyone's Email (slik.ai) by wilozxc 288 days ago

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12899814](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12899814)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> observation:

Good: Hardly any entry of "Uber for X". That's a relief considering most "uber for X" are not viable businesses.

Bad: we are going after "billion dollar market". How do you even estimate the market size ?? why dream of revenue in billions why not millions. A small company can be a great company. Bad: 50%-60% companies from day 1 or day 2 do not have mission critical business. Their business is finding a problem for some kind of solution that claim to have.

<comment><USER35> It's the fundamentals behind investing. Basically, you make no money gambling $10 ten times on 10% chance of success with $100 returns, but you make money if the returns are $10,000.

So, for investing in companies, there is no point funding companies aiming for millions as you can't get a good return because of the failure rates. They're basically taking up one of the slots of a potential billion $$$ company.

The point is for every 10 companies funded, have 1 become a billion $$$ company, while most of the rest will fail.

Say YC has a 6% stake, which gets diluted down to 1%(? I don't really understand this side of it) and then the company sells for $10 mill. Great for the founders, but YC only make $100,000. That doesn't cover the other 9 companies that failed (10 * $16,000 = $160,000 = $60,000 loss).

<comment><USER36> As much as I appreciate that's the VC model, perhaps less would fail if VCs didn't push for billions in revenue? The failure rate might be less than 9/10 if it wasn't "all or nothing"? Guessing it still wouldn't make enough home runs as an investment vehicle though?

<comment><USER37> Failure rate doesn't matter. 99% failure * 1B > 90% failure * 1M

<comment><USER38> That's assuming 90% failure when looking for sustainable businesses. There are some upcoming VC's which are doing well funding smaller companies. Momentum Ventures is one I know of.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


All the Math Methods I Learned in My University Math Degree Are Now Obsolete - <AUTHOR> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/all-the-mathematical-methods-i-learned-in-my-university_us_58693ef9e4b014e7c72ee248 <comment><USER2> > what is required today is a sufficiently deep understanding of all those > procedures, and the underlying concepts they are built on

This has always been the case for mathematicians. People that just learn how to do computations are called engineers.

</comment><comment><USER3> I find it difficult to imagine that this was written by a professor of mathematics. In order to suggest this viewpoint, you must have no idea of what software can and cannot automate in mathematical reasoning, not actually have developed mathematical reasoning and have relied on memorization of formulas so far, or be pushing an agenda.

<comment><AUTHOR> I know the author, and he is a "real mathematician". I'm not quite sure what you are suggestion, or how many research pure mathematicians you know, but as a PhD in pure math myself I'm struggling to understand exactly the points you are making, and what you would suggest they are missing.

Could you point us at some articles to explain your points?

Thanks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> One has to just inspect this title to see no real mathie wrote this. Proof is left as an exercise to the reader. ;>

<comment><USER5> Hmm I don't think we can classify Keith Devlin as no real mathie.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you aid persistent human knowledge - <AUTHOR> What books, tools, or workflows are there to help you persist your knowledge in a way that can last 5+ years?
For example, some people talk to mind mapping or org-mode. Some people use Instapaper or Pocket to highlight notes. Others use Evernote / OneNote to document personal knowledge or team knowledge. I guess others email themselves notes, or journal.
Nothing seems to work for me, and it's either because I don't have the right strategy, I don't have good self-discipline, the tools I've tried aren't good, or some combination of the above.
So what's the genius pattern for filing, storing, organizing and retrieving knowledge for access when you need it? <comment><USER2> Like the answer to (and cause of!) most problems: booze!

A nightcap and time away from screens to reflect does wonders for rentention as you get a chance to think clearly about the days knowledge gains without distraction. Scientifically test too!

[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/24/alcohol- improves...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/24/alcohol-improves- memory-scientists-say-study-finds-drinking/)

</comment><comment><USER3> I use spaced repetition with this [https://apps.ankiweb.net/](https://apps.ankiweb.net/)</comment>


Tiny VPS Hosting - <AUTHOR> http://www.97cents.net/

<comment><USER2> There are not much info about the service on the site but this doesn't looks like VPS to me. The "P" in VPS stands for Private. This looks like a very limited shared hosting with a Cpanel manager, not a VPS with SSH and full control other the virtual server.

And you are forced to register or transfert a domain name to use with the hosting which are both (?) priced at $17 for a .com. That plus 12 x 97c and you are at the same price as a cheap "real" shared or vps hosting from many other hosting services + registar.

</comment><comment><USER3> They are just shared hosts, but 97c for SSD hosting is really good. All the other cheap hosts are still running the slower SATA drives.

also, check option 3 when signing up: "I will update my nameservers on an existing domain Or I will register a new domain"

You can use your own domain and not buy one from them.

</comment><comment><USER4> Quality shared hosting for 0.97*12 is not in any way special.

A decent VPS for 0.97 cents a month would be awesome, I tried some of the providers mentioned on lowendboxes.com but I can't say that I've had great experiences with any of them.

</comment><comment><USER5> Pet peeve: they should simplify the redundant "$0.97c" price.

It's either $0.97, or 97¢, it can't be both can it?

</comment><comment><USER6> Interesting, though the title is misleading; these guys host websites, not VPSes.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Superb Customer Support In My Experience- felt obliged to let everyone know.</comment>


The US military is using online gaming to recruit teens - <AUTHOR> https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/military-recruitment-twitch/ <comment><USER2> They also sponsor a bunch of sporting events. They've even done the video game thing in the past ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army)). I suppose you could argue that Twitch is a little different, but the idea is the same. They are trying to reach platforms that are popular among their recruitment demographic- young Americans. They aren't going to waste their money trying to recruit people with ads on the Hallmark Channel.

<comment><USER3> I played this game in high school and it is still top of my list as one of the best games I've ever played.

The matches could be incredibly slow. You could start a match and go grab a snack and you'd still be alive. On the flip side if you died it could be 10+ minutes to respawn. Sound was really important. I think eventually you could tag enemies on a minimap, but we had a ton of abbreviations for calling out locations in chat. The weapons had their quirks too.

The training and qualifications were also hella tedious. Like to get medic qualified you had to sit through this classroom lecture and take a test. The special forces qualification (opened more levels and weapons) was also really tough.

I hopped on in a later update and it was just constant respawn like any modern FPS. Anyway, loved that game. Never joined the military but I thought about it.

<comment><USER2> > I hopped on in a later update and it was just constant respawn like any > modern FPS

Yeah, I think the thing that made it such a good recruitment tool at the beginning was that it wasn't like most video games. I wouldn't quite call it realistic, but if you were the type of person that liked AA, you were probably a good fit for the Army. The revisions gave it more mass appeal but probably lowered the hit rate as a recruitment tool.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This isn't something new: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army)

<comment><USER5> Streaming video channels featuring children's idols strikes me as meaningfully different than a computer game.

<comment><USER6> Is Joshua "Strotnium" David a children's idol? I bet most kids never heard of him. Unless they're getting pewdiepie to tell people to join the navy this seems like reaching too far.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> People think military is cool, even those who are against the military are donned in milspic gear and want to train with their tactics. Twitch makes it cooler. I don't understand why its so upsetting, I thought the military was cool before they were on twitch, before I watched movies on them just because as a kid I thought they were strong ant powerful people that excelled at war, kill or be killed. Military gets great treatment and I don't see what the problem is. Do we consider action figures of GI Joe a recruitment problem?

>I had just reminded viewers of the United States' history of atrocities around the globe, and helpfully provided a link to the Wikipedia page for US war crimes.

Can you name any military that hasn't done anything wrong? Not unique to any military

>The practices employed on Twitch by military e-sports teams are part of a system by which recruiters target children in unstable and/or disadvantaged situations. Recruiters take advantage of the poor seeking steady income, the vulnerable longing for stability, and the undocumented living in fear because of their citizenship status. Now, at a time when all those factors are magnified by a pandemic that has left half the country out of work and over 30 percent unable to afford their housing payments, conditions are ripe for recruiters to prey on anxious youth.

Prey on anxious youth? Seriously, it's like they assume nobody wants to join the military for any reason, if it wasn't for the pandemic. Giving young disadvantaged kids discipline when their parents don't isn't bad. The article brings up military sexual trauma and suicide as if that is not going to happen anywhere but the military, or if its a normal thing. I have family in the military, in fact that is how my family immigrated to the US due to a great uncle serving in the military.

>"Twitch is unlike anything I've ever experienced in my career, and it's because you're live for hours on end, talking to these people in the chat. You develop a community and know your individual chatters. There is an ecosystem in every Twitch channel," Piker said. "Recruiting in this predatory way is a violation of [the users'] safety."

Seriously? You can find that kind of community on chaturbate or any of the sex streaming sites.

<comment><USER7> Disappointing that this is so downvoted. Say what you want about militaries as a general concept, but compared to essentially any prior state/country/empire in the history of the world, the American military is remarkably benign, especially considering their overwhelming military strength in comparison to rivals.

If the Americans had even 10% of the imperialistic mentality of the Roman Empire, British Empire, Ottoman Empire, Japanese Empire, Mughal Empire, etc., the entire world would be a single imperial state.

That certainly doesn't justify the numerous crimes that the American military has done, but context is key, and like should be compared with like.

<comment><USER8> I don't think that's true. Warfare in general has advanced quite a bit, and expertise exists in many places. You can't really hold an empire with just force these days. The US would crumble under an attempt to take over anything more than North America.

The approach of the modern superpower is much more effective: decentralized power but overall alignment. There's no coincidence to America's approach. It isn't ideological. It's pragmatic.

<comment><USER7> Maybe that is true today, but:

1) Much of that expertise has come directly from US involvement. See: Western Europe, Japan, Korea.

2) Much of the other expertise developed specifically because of US non- involvement. See: the Soviet Union and the states it influenced and supported. There were even plans to attack/nuke the Soviets, who were the only real rival post-WW2.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable)

Had the U.S. wished to, it could have easily formed an imperial state following WW2. That would have been in-line with essentially every large state in human history. Thankfully, they didn't, and the world is better off for it.

<comment><USER8> I actually think America couldn't have formed an imperial super state. That is really, really hard. Even the pre-eminent superpower of the pre-World-War Era, the United Kingdom, was having her empire fray and tatter before the Wars. The forces at play are too powerful. Rapid collapse would have followed. And that's even assuming we could have beaten the USSR by 1949 (First Lightning), when opposition nukes enter the picture and the game changes again.

The tools of modern warfare are too widespread and easy to adopt. You can't do it anymore, the old school empire is just as dead as old school fortresses. Technology has broken it.

I have friends who served in Afghanistan. I'm not unfamiliar with how powerful the US military is. But even that power is too weak.

America's approach is way more resilient and the control exerted is much easier to retain.

<comment><USER9> Besides the technology of weapons, a big change here is that the economics of running an empire was completely changed by industrialization.

Every empire since the year dot captured land, with peasants farming it, who could be taxed, to pay the soldiers, to capture land... that was the business model. A little profit was left over to pay for cities, palaces, pyramids, etc.

This flow of money from country to towns was reversed by the industrial revolution. Within almost every country now, the cities are taxed to pay the rural voter base (or to pay off the rural might-be-revolutionaries, in places with less voting).

Not the only thing going on, of course -- changes in weapons matter to the balance, as mentioned. So does the rise of literacy & nationalism, which made the idea of rulers who are too distant (by ethnicity, language, or religion) from the population base (as they were in empires, almost by definition) into a rallying point. And thus raised the cost of holding land.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This isn't shocking at all - recruiters used to come to my high school and then eventually they set up an ROTC. I've even seen them put out attractive girls in the park at recruiting booths with giveaways, not surprised they'll do whatever they can to attract people.

I have an aversion to these tactics because I know I sure as hell wasn't mature enough at 18 or even a decade later to be in a position where I could be deciding to kill someone in combat and I don't like the idea of kids being recruited with some slimy tactics, but I do think Silicon Valley needs to do a better job of working with DoD and the US govt, I sure as hell would rather the US be the undisputed world leader than Russia or China

edit for misspelling

<comment><USER6> >I know I sure as hell wasn't mature enough at 18 or even a decade later to be in a position where I could be deciding to kill someone in combat

You could easily be a non combatant, and most are not combatants jobs. Its one of the greatest misconceptions of the military. Wars and battles only occur during a failure of diplomacy and negotiation.

<comment><USER10> Sure, I could easily be a non combatant and likely would be (although I scored in the high 90s on the ASVAB and the recruiters said I could pick my role...) but my understanding is that you don't really get a choice. When you sign the papers they own you and you wouldn't have much of a choice if they decided to put you in that position.

I'm not sure I agree that those are the only situations where wars and battles occur - maybe in great power conflicts but was there really much diplomacy or negotiation before the U.S. invaded Iraq?

<comment><USER11> I scored a 96. I was supposed to go Navy Nuclear Power School and become a nuclear power plant technician of some kind. Either a Machinist's Mate (MM Nuclear), Electronics Technician (ET Nuclear), or Electrician's Mate (EM Nuclear).

Turns out I'm color blind. I already had the top secret clearance, ended up as a quartermaster (QM) for Patrol Coastal Crew Charlie at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek in Virginia Beach, under command of SOSCOM (Special Operations Support Command).

A lot of driving around spec ops units on a RHIB (Ridged Hull Inflatable Boat) up and down the Um Qasr river (which is actually more an estuary and canal system, and actually has a lot of different names as it shifts... but that's another story - everyone just calls it 'Um Qasr').

Bottom line, the military will put you where they need you most. Smart people get put into advanced training for very technical ratings. I would probably be working in a nuclear power plant today had I been born with normal color vision. Such is life. Smart people are too rare to waste on shit like infantry. There's plenty of people that can hold a rifle.

<comment><USER12> >>>Smart people are too rare to waste on shit like infantry.

Nitpick: the infantry needs intelligent people too, especially in the officer ranks. McNamarra's Morons suffered massively-higher casualty rates than "normal" draftee infantry, for example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't get it. The article is basically saying that the military is something bad? Then just say it like that. Don't make it about those perfectly fine twitch channels.

edit: Oh this article is written by Jordan Uhl

</comment><comment><USER14> This is the core story of the science fiction story "Ender's Game". It seemed far fetched at the time.

<comment><USER15> How does an article about military recruitment for voluntary enlistment share the core story of a children's book where the main character is drafted? I find it hard to imagine more different themes.

In Ender's Game, the main character repeatedly tries to out smart the military and avoid his draft by becoming more and more brutal.

In this article, the military is portrayed as a group of pseudo drug dealers, seducing poor youths into a life of violence and war crimes.

Really, this article is fascinating in how it assumes that the reader will agree with it's unstated thesis that entering the military is the worst thing that could happen to a person.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Dare I say haven't they been doing this since the days of War Games?

</comment><comment><USER17> This is news? The US military has been actively recruiting online at least since 2002 when they released the America's Army first-person shooter whose sequel releases continue to this day.

</comment><comment><USER18> I know this isn't new.

But, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to recruit least disciplined people who love shooting more than everything else, and aren't even good at what they area doing in digital games (otherwise why would they leave it).

I still remember the Apache footage that WikiLeaks published. The gunner was so enthusiastic to shoot people. "c'mon let's shoot. let me shoot"

He thought he was playing CallofDuty.

</comment><comment><USER19> > The Twitter account for the US Army e-sports team links to a sparsely > populated page with register to win! at the top, no details on what one > could even win, and a sign-up form that, according to a tiny disclosure at > the bottom of the page, welcomes an eventual harangue by an Army recruiter. > It allows people as young as 12 to submit the form, but adds a notice on the > post-submission page that recruiters are not permitted to contact a child > under the age of 16.

Wow, baiting 13 year olds into signing up for the military via a fake contest is something straight out of Starship Troopers

<comment><USER20> Hmm, under 16 not contacted by recruiter.

Starship Troopers specifically discouraged people from joining the military.

<comment><USER19> That's a new take on Starship Troopers I've never heard before.

The entire movie is supposed to be a pro-military propaganda film for that specific universe. One cannot be a citizen without military service. They even used child soldiers [0]

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_7FaWnlhS4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_7FaWnlhS4)

<comment><USER21> Depends on whether anyone caught the satire. The director grew up under nazi occupation and modeled the film as such, nazi propaganda.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think this is great- much better than the long-standing recruitment methods of military band concerts / color guard events / etc.

</comment><comment><USER23> Isn't this just part of their marketing budget? Not exactly news anyways or certainly anymore. They even had their own videogame.

</comment><comment><USER2> First: Yes, this is my second comment on this post. I wasn't sure if I should just edit my comment but this has a different theme so I'll keep them separate.

You should note when reading this article that it is written from a progressive/leftist perspective. The author isn't trying to hide it. I want to comment on some specific points just to offer a little balance and some inside knowledge from my experience being in the military (experience the author does not have). I'm not a recruiter and none of this represents an official stance from any organization, it's my personal views.

\- "None of the military branches or Twitch would comment on paid promotion or how branches might qualify for prominent placement on Twitch's homepage" It's money. Literally just money. There is nothing nefarious on Twitch's part about selling featured space.

\- I'll admit that the whole promising a chance to win an Xbox controller and then redirecting to a recruiter is kind of scummy. But if you're going to get mad at recruiters, get mad at them for lying to recruits about their potential jobs based on their ASVAB scores. They will tell low scoring kids that they can do whatever job they desire just to get them to sign papers, when a lot of jobs have specific requirements that the recruiter knows they don't meet. This is a really bad thing that recruiters do and it's way worse than lying about an Xbox controller.

\- But as scummy as recruiters sometimes are, let's acknowledge that the military can be beneficial to some people. It _really_ does pay for college, both with tuition assistance while they are serving and with the GI bill after they get out. For me personally, I have received a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and a PhD all without taking a single loan because of the military. I have also helped tutor airmen taking college math classes while they were deployed. A lot of them would not have thrived in a traditional college environment, but while deployed they would work 50+ hours a week and also knocked out six credit hours of classes in six months. A lot of those airmen have now finished their bachelor's degrees with zero debt and are now stellar civilian employees with great lives.

\- The military can help people raise their station in life. This phrasing "a system by which recruiters target children in unstable and/or disadvantaged situations. Recruiters take advantage of the poor seeking steady income, the vulnerable longing for stability, and the undocumented living in fear because of their citizenship status" screams that it was written by a privileged person that looks down on poor people but wants to look like they care. The reality is that a lot of people that came from poor families and broken homes really appreciate that the military gave them a new family, a good paycheck, secured their chance at citizenship, etc. No, the military isn't for everyone, but it's not a nefarious supervillian preying on the underclass of society.

\- The anti-recruiter says "They don't talk about military sexual trauma." I do want to acknowledge that this exists and is a problem. But every branch of the military is making serious attempts at getting better. There are pockets of absolute filth, but most people in the military want to fix the problem and do not tolerate sexual abuse or abusers in their units, and act swiftly and appropriately when it is discovered. I am confident saying that you are now at far greater risk of being sexually assaulted if you attend a college frat party than you are joining the military.

\- This part "Despite being older than most of his young viewers, he speaks like them" is how you should communicate with people. Most groups/cultures appreciate it when an outsider speaks or makes an attempt to speak the native language. It's not a bad thing.

That's probably enough commentary. It's true, the military isn't perfect, and sometimes pulls some shady tricks when recruiting. But this article is slanted, so keep an open mind when forming an opinion. The truth probably lies somewhere between the radical left and the radical right, it's up to you to find it. There are a _lot_ of proud veterans that appreciate their time in the military and the benefits it brought them. There are too many happy veterans for them to all be psychopaths or brainwashed or idiots, some of them have to be decent regular people. There are also a lot of veterans that regret their time in the military for various reasons. Many of them have real trauma and legitimate complaints. But I think overall, using Twitch to reach young people for recruitment isn't a bad thing.

<comment><USER22> > "None of the military branches or Twitch would comment on paid promotion or > how branches might qualify for prominent placement on Twitch's homepage" > It's money. Literally just money. There is nothing nefarious on Twitch's > part about selling featured space.

It also might not be money. I follow a popular twitch streamer (averages 30k+ viewers) who is often featured on the front page. He says he just asks his contact at Twitch to be put on the front page, no money required. They do have additional rules though (he isn't allowed to swear too much or they will remove him from the front page).

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Time for a US Air Force Tactical Timeout.

</comment><comment><USER25> This isn't a bad thing.

</comment><comment><USER26> As a European I find the patriotic displays before sports matches in the US a little vomit inducing. It's paid for by the military and not some spontaneous display of love for the country, and it's a little fascist in that anyone refusing to take part (Colin Kaepernick? But also people in the crowd who don't stand) stands out like a sore thumb. Then there's the "let's clap for veterans" mid-way through the game and whatnot, sometimes bringing one or two onto the pitch for everyone to gawk at. It seems to me like the whole thing is a choreographed process to show impressionable youngsters who lack self respect that they will be respected by society if they wage war on its behalf.

<comment><USER27> That reaction is an unfortunate part of modern European culture, and I'm sorry to say that the USA encouraged it after World War II. I say "unfortunate" because it takes away the natural urge for self-preservation and will ultimately lead to the demise of European culture. Culture dies if it is not defended.

<comment><USER28> Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Denunciatory rhetoric is particularly unwelcome here, since it's the opposite extreme of curious conversation.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Which percentage of hardcore gamers can pass an army fitness test? or meet their health requirements, including body fat?

<comment><USER30> Many because not all gamers are the stereotypical south park caricature?

<comment><USER29> Even if you are within what most consider normal, the army does not aim for normal.

You need to be in good shape to make the cut.

<comment><USER31> You sir, have not seen most soldiers.

<comment><USER29> You sir, have not seen most gamers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> It is right and just for a nation to encourage its young to defend their mothers and fathers, and children and grandchildren not yet born. Any nation that sees this as wrong has lost its will to exist and is living on borrowed time.

<comment><USER33> That's fine. Should it trick them though?

> Twitch viewers in the Army's channel are repeatedly presented with an > automated chat prompt that says they could win a Xbox Elite Series 2 > controller—an enhanced controller with customizable options and extra > paddles for advanced play that costs upward of $200—and a link where they > can enter the "giveaway." It, too, directs them to a recruiting form with no > additional mention of a contest, odds, total number of winners, or when a > drawing will occur.

<comment><USER32> If that's true, it's wrong. And was it a policy or a few losers trying to pad their numbers? I'll withhold judgment at least until the official army response.</comment></comment></comment>