Ask HN: For those on call, how often are you called? - <AUTHOR> My current role as a IT Operations Engineer has recently forced me to join an on-call rotation, which when on primary support is paging me 5-7 times per week after hours (so literally daily.)
I've been in various IT administration, development and DevOps positions for the last 20 years with differing "on call" responsibilities, and have never had anything as intrusive as this.
Getting to the point - my current manager says that getting paged every day of your primary support shift is "normal in the industry for operations".  While this definitely doesn't match my personal experience - I'm curious:  do any of you in technical support roles with "on call" responsibilities get paged this frequently?  If not, what does a "normal" shift look like for you?
Thanks kindly for any feedback! <comment><USER3> Worked at a FAANG, 5-7 was peanuts for the rotation I was on there. The interesting thing (I don't know if I liked it or not) was that when you're on call, that's all you do (even during normal hours, that is), no "normal" work/projects during that time (which relieves a giant burden for everyone NOT on call). At the end of the rotation, there is a proper hand-off to the next on call; every issue that came up is reviewed and a plan put in place to fix it "for good" (meaning a backlog task gets created and assigned to someone during the next sprint planning). If there's no planning to root-cause and fix the underlying problems, run.

<comment><USER4> This is super interesting. So you had a high number of pages, but then you also had a really clearly defined and sensible sounding way of dealing with the root causes of the pages?

If you're constantly fixing the things causing you to get pages, why are there still many more than one per day? Just prioritisation of other work over fixes?

We have a similar system, though we have one person on after hours support doing normal work during the day, and one person during the day who doesn't do normal work. That person works on remediating the issues that cause people to get paged. Leads to a pretty low number of pages.

<comment><USER3> My rotation was a bit weird. I was on an ops team for a service, but my ops team did not have our own rotation- each of us took part in the various dev team rotations (the theory is nice, the ops team had a deep view of most aspects of the service. I don't think this was common to other service teams). The dev team I took part in was an absolute trainwreck. Poorly managed at the team level and one level above (the owners/managers of the service). More concerned with getting features out and burning through people to make progress. The issues were always brought up and root-caused properly, but poor architecture led to a lot of "well, we can't do that until x happens". I should reiterate that I'm no longer at the company - definitely wasn't the place for me (and my sanity)!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wouldn't accept that as normal. In well-run organizations, when there is a regular, ongoing need for evening or overnight coverage, it's provided by people scheduled to work during those hours, who are selected and trained to be able to handle most situations on their own.

After-hours calls should come infrequently, or in situations where someone's personal involvement (for example, as the engineer with primary responsibility for a particular component or its maintenance) is indispensable.

In my experience, things that need a lot of unplanned attention are more likely to fail, if they haven't already, in ways that have other unacceptable consequences. Fixing them should be a priority for this reason, too.

You haven't mentioned why you keep getting paged. Is it the same problem repeatedly, or lots of different problems? Is there any hope of addressing the underlying causes?

<comment><USER6> >In well-run organizations, when there is a regular, ongoing need for evening or overnight coverage, it's provided by people scheduled to work during those hours, who are selected and trained to be able to handle most situations on their own.

It's decently common to have engineering teams oncall for their own services, with a regular PagerDuty shift as part of the job. In that case 5-7 alerts per week is pretty healthy. It sucks that you need to keep your work laptop with you and stay sober / within cell coverage, but even then it's pretty rare to catch an actual outage that requires significant attention.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have been a lead devops engineer in my last two companies, both of them with more than 1k VMs on 4+ on prems data centers.

In the first I was on call rotation for a wekend a month for two years and got called twice.

It was 1h of work paid if you didn't called and 4h if the phone rings, if you worked for more than 4h it than went straight to a full day.

Currently I am on call and only get paid if called, but, my manager only calls me on critical situations, have been called 2 times in a year and 7 months. If I get called I get half day of work paid.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - that seems like a reasonable way to handle on call, and more in line with what I've seen as well. Appreciate the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is not normal. Our on-call schedules run 5-9 Monday to Friday, and 5pm Friday to 9am Monday. If I were paged twice in a week that would be a bad week, being paged at all is fairly uncommon now. Historically it would be more common, but no where near daily, that would be entirely unacceptable.

We've invested a load of time reducing the frequency of paging incidents over the years, the entire technology organisation recognises the importance of fixing said incidents and how disruptive it is to peoples lives/sleep/etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - this is what I figured was closer to normal. I appreciate getting confirmation my experience is not as far off reality as I was being told!

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't think it's normal.

At a previous company I was on call every second week and would receive a call maybe once every few months. That was with many hundreds of servers.

At another company I'm on once a week per month and get called once or twice. That's with just a few hundred servers.

In the first case all time was reimbursed in lieu. In the second case my salary more than makes up for any inconvenience.

However in both cases I was very proactive in defining what is on call - critical production issues only. If it's not critical or not production then I won't log on to look at it.

And in both cases I had a LOT of false alarms from bad alerts when starting. I had all false alarms disabled.

You'll get push back but I didn't care - you can't have an alarm waking up people every night on the off chance that one in a hundred will actually be an error. And hilariously, if you started including your boss on the call, they'd quickly agree it's not acceptable. The human cost isn't worth it.

While there's often tonnes of room for improvements to monitoring and alerting (root cause analysis etc) that others have mentioned - in my experience most of the metrics and alarms are garbage anyway, and can and should be done away with. If it came from a boxed product it should near all be turned off from the get go. That crap is always pointless.

Oh no a server CPU usage has increased and memory is low because - it's doing what it's meant to? What junk.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - yeah, all of the 5-7 incidents I'm seeing are considered high priority and require action. We get lots of the noisy false system alarms too, but those don't require me to action them thankfully.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I mean it depends on whether you are doing anything with the pages and if they're followed up on. As someone who has been on various oncall rotations for a decade I would describe that as a pretty heavy paging load for an average rotation.

The key criteria for me and paging are:

1\. Was the page actionable? Did I need to do something to restore the system to functioning or prevent it from going down.

2\. Can I prevent this page in the future and most importantly am I empowered by leadership to do that? If your app is paging me because it's poorly made and I am not authorized to change it that's a leadership problem that's extremely common.

3\. Are we auditing the pages? Often alerts in technology are designed in response to a particular problem and then never removed. Paging is, to me, a very serious action for a system to take. It means it is impossible for the system to naturally recover and all automation has failed. So every time we page someone we should as a team review those pages to ensure they're actionable and actually impossible to naturally recover from.

These criteria have served me well for years and caused me to turn off the vast majority of the alerts of my services.

But you seem to have a culture that accepts this as normal and tbh these rarely change. Just know that it isn't normal and it's not acceptable.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - of the 5-7 pages per week I was mentioning, all of these are things that are items that require me to manually action them. Lots are after hours customer support issues that require administration level access, others are systems issues tied to technical debt or legitimate problems that occur.

There is effort to try and resolve the underlying problems, and we do make some headway here - we just keep adding changes to satisfy customers which end up causing new issues. We're being told this will get better over time, but it's certainly not happening fast enough IMHO.

Again, thanks for the feedback and insight!

<comment><USER11> That comes back to the parent's comment about being empowered to fix the issues. The person on call should have power to prevent such calls in the future. This is important for the health of the individual and of the company.

Are the people in charge of fixing the underlying issues themselves on call? How about the people producing the changes that cause new issues?

If those two groups aren't themselves being woken up when there's a problem, you can reasonably expect that this won't change until the support calls start to directly affect the company's bottom line.

<comment><AUTHOR> > Are the people in charge of fixing the underlying issues themselves on call?

Yes - although we're on call frequently enough, and tasked with other priorities when we're not - so progress is slow. I mentioned in another comment as well that the executive focus is to do pretty much whatever our customers want, so this generally results in lots of new problems by the time we fix older ones.

> How about the people producing the changes that cause new issues?

They are responsible for fixing the code, but they can do so more during regular 9-5 type hours. They don't feel the same level of pain. I realise this is a problem, but thanks for suggesting it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> My advice is to use your time on call to your advantage. Don't address just the symptoms - when you receive a call try to understand the root cause and take steps to prevent that situation from happening again. For example - <USER2> paged for low disk space make sure log rotation is present, working, and aggressive enough to stay ahead of the generation rate. Have the thing that checks the disk space preform the most common remediation steps and then page only if unsuccessful. If your in the cloud then just kill anything that runs out of disk space, it's the application owners responsability to arrange for long term storage, etc. Do this for every call you receive and soon your phone will be silent.

My employer makes use of Pagerduty and I've spent a lot of time setting up "auto-resolve" of alerts. I even hook into AWS autoscaling lifecycle events and send mock "OK" actions when something gets terminated that had thrown an alarm. I still get paged but most issues solve themselves if I wait one more monitoring interval.

I've also used being on call as excuse to leave early - to ensure I'm home and able to respond to calls when everyone else leaves the office, not much I can do if I'm stuck in traffic, or in a tunnel, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - we try to tune our alerts, and we have a lot that are self healing as well. The ones I've been mentioning are ones that we currently don't have automated solutions for, and require me to manually action them. Our management team is working on automating away the work, but the technical debt is going to take longer to fix. We get some flexibility to leave early / start late when alerts affect our shift as well, although it's not worth the cost to me personally.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I'm part of a team that operates a roughly 100 node Kubernetes cluster. I'm on call after hours for a week at a time, and am on call roughly every six weeks. I think I've been on call for three weeks this year, and I've been paged twice. Both of those were pretty straightforward problems solved within half an hour or so, with zero customer impact. This is roughly what other people in my team experience, probably averaging less than 1 page per on call rotation.

The question you should be asking is: why am I being paged so often?

Are they legitimate things that you need to respond to? If so, you should be fixing these issues so that they don't happen again. If anyone gets a page, we make it a high priority to fix whatever caused it. We are a team of 7, and we dedicate one person a week to field questions relating to our platform as well as to fix up these issues that wake us up.

If they're not legitimate things that you need to be woken up for, why are you being woken up? If this is the case, you need to make sure everyone is on the same page regarding what constitutes something you need to be paged for after hours.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply - I appreciate the insight and follow up questions.

> The question you should be asking is: why am I being paged so often? Are > they legitimate things that you need to respond to? If so, you should be > fixing these issues so that they don't happen again.

This is mostly due to not having anyone else around to handle customer issues (which currently require manual intervention), however system issues are also pretty frequent here as well. Management is working on prioritizing the automation of the customer issues so that there are less of them in total, but system issues will likely be harder to resolve (we try to resolve them as they come up if possible, but many are more systemic to technical debt.)

So yes - I'm only including the events that are actionable and require breaking out the laptop - these generally vary from 15 minutes to 3 hours of support.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> If I'm not doing devOps work (I explicitly avoid this garbage) and not a founder I expect to not be on call - ever.

So basically, I don't work at companies that make their employees carry a pager etc. Life is too short for that shit.

I worked briefly at a startup shortly after it's acquisition by a FAANG. The startup's code was trash - I acknowledged while on call that I didn't exactly know what was going on after digging a while - asked for help - was then reprimanded for "not knowing the code well enough" basically because I asked for help. I left about a month after that. Again, life is too short for that shit.

</comment><comment><USER14> Rarely. In a team of 3-4 engineers who share the on-call responsibility, I think one of us gets paged every 3-4 months.

Normal shift is like every other day. Just go to work, do my job. Come home, eat, chill a bit and go to sleep.

It used to be more. The company started with three people three years ago (myself included). Now we're over 50. We have enough resources to fix and solve problems before they become real problems.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply - this sounds like the right way to run an on call rotation!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Hardly ever, but then we've made it an explicit goal that if we're having to fix the system after hours, we need to fix that immediately. It used to be almost daily before we made uninterrupted sleep an explicit priority.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - that's what I was expecting this to be like also - it's sadly not though. Appreciate the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Currently a bit more than a year at my current workplace. I have on-call every 4 weeks for a week. This weekend was my third call.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - when you're primary on-call, how often do you receive alerts / pages that you have to action?

<comment><USER16> Well, having had my third call in the 14th week of being on call I would say about 0.2 times per week on-call.</comment></comment></comment>


Using Web Bluetooth to Communicate with Bluetooth Devices - <AUTHOR> https://www.balena.io/blog/using-web-bluetooth-to-communicate-with-bluetooth-devices/ <comment><USER2> I'm super interested in unpacking the reasons why folks think WebUSB and Web Bluetooth "can't end well" as one user here put it. Would folks mind listing their reasons? This is assuming there is some way to install a native app with access to these APIs... But if you are in the camp of "no bluetooth ever" and "no USB ever" that would be totally interesting to know as well :).

<comment><USER3> From a security perspective, you want to add features only when they're seriously needed, not just because you can. Even if the new feature _seems_ completely safe, there may be some potential way to compromise it you're not seeing, or some interaction it will have with other features that isn't obvious until the two are shipping together.

The smallest attack surface is no attack surface at all.

<comment><USER4> From a security perspective you should consider what users are already doing and if introducing a feature can be better security than that.

Users are already installing local applications from untrustworthy hardware vendors just to interact with bluetooth devices. I think a web bluetooth standard is an improvement on that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We are actively using Web Bluetooth within our hardware debugging ecosystem ([https://www.aidlab.com/developer/debug](https://www.aidlab.com/developer/debug)) for our wearable. It plays great role, as:

* It's multiplatform.

* You can rapidly upload the changes (it's web)

* Bluetooth 4.0+ is faster than semihosting (and Bluetooth 5 even more).

* You don't have to use wires.

but what worries me is that there is a visible slowdown in the development of Web Bluetooth (at least when we compare it to the rapid growth in 2015-2017). Is it going to be a dead technology soon? Because it is way behind being a mature tech.

<comment><USER6> It is indeed very likely going to die. Webkit team isn't even considering it anymore now.

<comment><USER7> Webkit itself is very likely to die xD. Who uses safari nowadays?

<comment><USER8> I would not say it's likely to die because it's obviously false since on iOS it's the only choice but it's true that when you see the release logs of Safari, it's moving very slowly very far behind Chrome or Firefox.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Oh, this is neat :). I was recently thinking about how to configure something on an ESP8266 from my phone - with the ESP potentially being out of range of the WiFi; so HTTP or attaching the ESP to my MQTT server will not be a reliable option.

I was afraid I had to write an Android App to connect to the device via Bluetooth, which sucks because I am neither an app nor a java dev. With the web BT functionality I can now put a simple interface somewhere on the web, open it on my device and control the ESP (I am not a web dev either, but simple JS toy stuff is easy enough).

Of course this might require swapping the ESP8266 for an ESP32 if BLE is strictly necessary (the former doesn't support BLE, afaict).

<comment><USER10> I don't think the ESP8266 supports any kind of Bluetooth at all

<comment><USER9> Ah, you're right, thanks - I had that mixed up anyway because until now I wasn't interested in using BT in my hobby projects at all. So that's a nice excuse to order an ESP32 or two or three.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> HTTPS is good but it's not good enough for web api context because it only protects client-server communications.

Prompting the user is good but it's not good enough for web api context because users can't be fully informed by a one line prompt.

I was asked to help my mother in law with her PC. When I looked at the screen it was half covered by W10 notifications from web sites. I asked her, how do you use this. And she sad, I don't know how that happened and I don't know how to stop it. Of course she gave permission but she could not understand how bad web sites would abuse notifications so she couldn't make a fully informed decision . It was sad. I turned all off.

Now, developers will say that it's impossible to fully inform a user but when that's the case should we really push that anyway to the user?

<comment><USER12> Hmm, at least it's easy for someone else (you) to help her fix it?

This is a bit of a tangent, but as tech support workers soon learn, it's unrealistic to expect everyone in a large pool of users to be independent of tech support. We have a myth of competent independence that works for some but it's not reality.

This goes double when your business includes retirees. As people age, many businesses have to figure out how to handle cognitive decline and death of their customers gracefully. (I'm thinking financial institutions in particular.)

Browsers try to make the open web safe for everyone, but it seems to be based on the median user and many users are well below average.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have recently tried communicating via BLE on an ESP32 using the Web Bluetooth API on a hackathon. The experience was mediocre at best. Enabling an experimental flag on the desktop version of Chrome 77 was reqired, we had to use some hacks to overcome the 20 byte limit for writing into a characteristic. Additionaly after 10 hours of constantly connecting and disconnecting the device, it refused to work with any device except with one laptop. I don't know if it was caused by the web api or the ESP32 but it was quite an unpleasant superise.

<comment><USER14> I had a similar experience with ESP32 + Web Bluetooth. Ran into very weird issues, code that previously worked and then stopped working, even after restarting the device. Eventually figured out that the issue was on my laptop side (somewhere between the hardware, Ubuntu and Chrome), and it worked perfectly from my Chromebook and Android phone. For a long time I never even considered that the issue could be on the laptop, since I expected it to be the ESP32 that's buggy.

What I did find is that it can give a very good UX when it's working: connect directly from the browser to the ESP32, without requiring any WiFi setup or other hack to find and pair the device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Maybe I'm an Apple fan boy, but the list of features WebKit mark as "Not considering" [0] are indeed features I can see become awful security / usability problems. Like WebUSB, that just can't end well...

[0]: [https://webkit.org/status/#?status=not%20considering](https://webkit.org/status/#?status=not%20considering)

<comment><USER16> If an app really needs the feature it will have to distribute a native binary (like you have/had with some web video/screenshare) so do you prefer to have some applications that each one has to offer a Windows and Mac binary (no Linux or mobile) ?

IMO this API should be off by default. Then you would get a native popup when an application is trying to access them for an user to approve it, like this was something Falsh did many years back when you attempted to access the webcam or microphone. Speaking of Flash there were pages that had to use an invisible Flash player(or Java apple) to work around missing features of browsers. So personally I would like if it would be possible to have a browser based, cross platform wideo chat, screen sharing or other cool application as long is using free standards(I mean real ones not Chrome/Google wants it so is a standard now ) . Sorry for the long response.

<comment><USER17> > If an app really needs the feature it will have to distribute a native > binary (like you have/had with some web video/screenshare) so do you prefer > to have some applications that each one has to offer a Windows and Mac > binary (no Linux or mobile) ?

Yes. 100%. And I say that as a Linux-user.

If someone needs access to low level system and platform specific stuff, I would like to have that confined and isolated in an app 100% separate from my browser, which is already having a hard time staying secure.

That will also make such apps harder to make, so people will not make the decision to require such APIs lightly, or "just" to profile a user.

This is the same position I have on WebDRM, and the way WebDRM has gone only solidifies my stance.

<comment><USER18> > I would like to have that confined and isolated in an app 100% separate from > my browser, which is already having a hard time staying secure.

So instead of having all of the security features that browsers have you would prefer to run the application in an environment where code has all of the permissions as the user running it. I'm sure malicious actors are onboard with this proposal!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Another nice blog post/mini-project from Balena. Even though there are other similar solutions, the ease of use and instructions posted, make it very easy to create your own project :-)

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm excited about BLE for the browser. I'm not sure what multiplatform (mobile & desktop) alternatives there are except for Qt, and even Qt has bugs and open issues you have to work around.

For instance, only Qt 5.13+ has support for discovering and connecting BLE devices on Windows without pairing first -- if you are stuck on an LTS version (5.12), BLE is awkward in use.

</comment><comment><USER17> How about we just provide WebDMA instead and call it a day?

Clearly nobody cares about the security of the user anymore anyway.

<comment><USER21> Every time someone posts Web Bluetooth someone brings up security, which is fair, but I don't think it's productive to immediately dismiss it. The Chrome developers behind the spec have thought a lot about the security implications. It's not impossible to make Web Bluetooth more secure than tricking a user into installing a malicious program, which isn't exactly a complex trick right now.

This article from 2016 goes into some of the security of Web Bluetooth:

[https://medium.com/@jyasskin/the-web-bluetooth-security- mode...](https://medium.com/@jyasskin/the-web-bluetooth-security- model-666b4e7eed2)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> If someone want to try Web Bluetooth, please look at this project[1]: a Web Command Line Interface via NUS (Nordic UART Service).

[1]:[https://github.com/makerdiary/web-device- cli](https://github.com/makerdiary/web-device-cli)

</comment><comment><USER23> While Web Bluetooth seems like a good idea to us making BLE devices, the truth of the matter is that only google adopted it, and only such a small subset that you have to design your device around Web Bluetooth.

I recently had to make a iOS app that embedded a webview that catches web bluetooth calls and implemented them natively, to work around the fact that Web Bluetooth doesn't work on Safari. I think that would be a maintenance nightmare going forward.

<comment><USER24> > embedded a webview that catches web bluetooth calls and implemented them > natively, to work around the fact that Web Bluetooth doesn't work on Safari

This just broke my mind. Could you explain how/why this infinity mirror contraption was built?

<comment><USER25> jpablo built a website that uses WebBluetooth to do something. That doesn't work on Safari, so to make it work on iOS, jpablo built an app.

The app is mostly just a (safari) webview, but with hooks to satisfy the web bluetooth api, by using native code.

<comment><USER24> The ol ReverseDoubleWat ! A native app to shim a browser feature so the web will work on mobile. Bringing the web to native mobile.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Are IoT devices with Bluetooth that don't have Wi-Fi common?

<comment> d-sc Bluetooth is much simpler to implement and cheaper than WiFi.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Who's pushing WebBT? Facebook, Twitter?

I want to understand the industry support behind this protocol/standard and the what they hope to gain from it.

</comment><comment><USER28> Can somebody please help me understand what is cool about this ? Seems like a web interface that can use bluetooth.

Was this previously impossible or something ?

<comment><USER29> Firefox does not support web Bluetooth

<comment><USER30> With the Chromification of the Web that slowly matters less and less, sadly.

<comment><USER24> We are within a stone's throw away from America Online or Prodigy, but almost entirely self imposed. It is very interesting how monocultures and winner take all systemics play out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Halloween has come early.

</comment><comment><USER32> Oh good, an exciting new attack vector!

<comment><USER33> Sure, but why the big difference between Wifi and Bluetooth? You can reach your Wifi devices from your browser. People do not argue that they want a separate application to do so. They use the same application to reach the internet versus the devices on their LAN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> No iOS support? Dead on arrival.

<comment><USER35> it's not even in considerations to implement in webkit</comment></comment>


Apple Expanding Pilot Program Allowing Repairs of Select Vintage Macs Worldwide - <AUTHOR> https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/29/apple-expanding-vintage-mac-repair-pilot-program/ <comment><AUTHOR> Considering that Apple hasn't kept most of its Mac line updated, I wish Apple would bring in longer life for newer models by making it easier to replace (CPUs where feasible), RAM and storage easily or through third party services.

Usually, a RAM and a storage upgrade could make an old machine perform better and remain useful for longer. Or make for a better hand-me-down to someone else.

Practically though, I don't see Apple either working on its Mac line regularly or making it easier to upgrade certain parts of Macs easily. Maybe the 2019 Mac Pro will tell us what exactly Apple has in mind.</comment>


Opioids and the Labor Market (2018) - <AUTHOR> https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroom-and-events/publications/working-papers/2018-working-papers/wp-1807-opioids-and-the-labor-market.aspx <comment><USER2> If you haven't seen it, this interesting report from NPR draws connections between changes in welfare programs that saw their rolls diminish, with a commensurate increase in the rolls of disability programs.

[http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/](http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/)

This was published in 2013 and it has stuck with me since then. I feel like we can now draw the line further, into the opioid epidemic today.

It seems like we kicked people off welfare and their only option was disability, where they had legal access to opioids and an incentive to get and take them--to manage pain, yes, but also to embody their disabled status.

Did we cause our own crisis through bad policy choices?

<comment><USER3> I can attest that disability is a way of life in certain parts of the country. $15k/year may not sound like a lot, and it objectively isn't, but a household of 2 adults and 0-2 kids pulling $30k/year in some parts of the country can actually get by pretty well. If you can get an extra $10-20k/year in free opiates that's either a great way to feed an addiction or to make money on the side. There are counties where almost half of the adult population is on some kind of disability and those also happen to be the counties hurt hardest by the opiate epidemic, and known for "pain clinics".

But, I think there is a third part of the cycle that the article you linked mentions. Nobody grows up wanting to survive off disability and being an opiate addict - while the pain clinic/disability combo might enable people entering this state, the reason people give in to this is that they have poor life prospects. Going on disability is basically giving up. We need to figure out how to provide better job and educational prospects in the areas / for the kind of people who are incentivized to go on disability so that they actually have much better options. The average West Virginian isn't intrinsically less able than the average resident of Utah

<comment><USER4> The counties with highest disability rates were at about 26% of the overall population (not just adults) as of 2017. Washington Post has a good article about the human impact.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2017/03/30/disabled-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2017/03/30/disabled- or-just-desperate/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The standard "correlation does not equal causation" rebuttal here might be "how do you know that ppl who are unemployed aren't just more likely to take more opioids?" The authors have attempted to address such a rebuttal thusly: "We also present evidence on reverse causality, finding that a short-term unemployment shock did not increase the share of people abusing prescription opioids."

<comment><USER5> That's a weak way to address it. You don't start using opioids right after losing your job. There's a period when you're trying to find another job and keep yourself productive. Looking at short-term shocks is obviously flawed.

<comment><USER6> In my personal case, using opiates, specifically, heroin, was the only thing that let me keep my job (well, until I quit my job to get off of that shit). Working 12 hour day, 6-7 days a week in a brutal and miserable work environment (finance), the only thing I could do to survive was heroin. I would get like 4-5 hours a night and just felt like shit and really depressed everyday. Consequently, I started doing heroin for that extra "pep" (it's a common misnomer that heroin makes you fall asleep, it actually wakes you up). With heroin, I could work non-stop, sometimes for even 24 hours at a time while feeling sort of okay, provided I had a steady supply of heroin.

I do however think that heroin/opiates use decreases the ability to rejoin the workforce. I fortunately was making a great salary so I could afford an expensive heroin habit ($200-$300 a day). But your average blue-collar worker probably isn't making as much money, and therefore, there state is much more unstable. Oscillating between getting high, going into withdrawals, running out of money, etc etc. When you are in this state, it is very hard to plan for the future (the only thing you are thinking about is how to not go into horrible pain in 3-4 hours) and, therefore, get a job.

<comment><USER7> I always presumed that cocaine was the "drug" (edit: originally used "opioid") of choice for finance.

Heroin always seemed as for the "hardcore" or "musician" crowd.

<comment> xkcd-sucks Hmm I've heard some people say that stimulants are good for awareness and quickness, while opiates are good for simply making a large chunk of work seem attainable and enjoyable. For example, "I can sit here writing this code forever because it feels so nice to sit here and eat Dilaudid and write code". Getting real utility out of it, though, seems to be up to self-awareness, experience and luck.

<comment><USER6> I think that's a good way to put it. When coked out, you get all these grandoise plans and might start to rewrite the entire codebase. With heroin, it's more like you can just keep on chugging for a long-time.

This is in fact what makes heroin so dangerous. As long as you have the money, you can keep on chugging, while feeing chill and relaxed at the same time.

The problem is when you run out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So how does this study capture individuals like, say, myself who apparently industry has deemed "unemployable" due to past legal (all-substance related) "transgressions" but is desperate to work in the industry where he has a 25 year history?

I deal daily, now that I am mid-50's, with deep bone-on-bone pain due to a badly torn ACL in high school, and have found that light-dose opioid treatment keeps my QOL at a reasonable level and let's me live a pretty normal life.

Getting access to these medications is now basically impossible without a huge financial and emotional investment thru "normal" channels.

Have any of you ever felt the shame one feels when a 26yo pharmacist looks at you with semi-disguised disgust because you asked him to fill a opioid prescription? Or even worse, tell you that they are "out" of the medication and suggests you go to the other side of town to fill it?

And let's not mention the incredible hassle and expense of trying to get said prescription nowadays...you can't even mention the word opiate during your examination without risking being kicked out of the office or something of the like.

Does taking 30mg of a crappy synthetic opioid twice a day to relieve me of chronic pain really make me an unhireable junkie piece of shit? YES! shouts back society on a daily basis.

Because that is where we are nowadays...BTW, I work my ass off while on medication because it allows me to concentrate on my software and not on the never ending aching throb in my knee.

I've tried Tramadol and many other pain relief concoctions to various degrees of success, but I just don't understand why I have to live with the trade off when what works for me works so much better then anything else.

So I choose to buy my opiates on the street...the natural type thank-you-very- much, and my life is much more pleasant, besides the fact no one will hire me due to my past, then it would otherwise be.

</comment><comment><USER9> The talk about opioids always seems to forget the origin of the crisis : the war against Afghanistan taliban's successful curbing of opium cultivation and trafficking. The big pharma and industrial interests and their political servants are not challenged about it till today.

</comment><comment><USER10> I don't have data, but I also believe video games are a major factor.

<comment><USER11> Video games, social networking, and other forms of cheap digital entertainment.

<comment><USER12> It will be interesting when mixed reality experiences become the norm, rather than an outlier. Digital opioids exist, and affect the brain in much the same way. It will only be a matter of time before VR experiences provide the same level of drug induced euphoria.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Just a counterpoint. I have taken prescription hydrocodone, for occasional use, for over ten years. I have been careful not to develop a tolerance. (because I want it to work when I need it.) It improves my quality of life. It's just a tool. A useful tool, like JSON, and unlike XML. Use it when needed, and don't use it when not needed. There are times I would have gone home from work, but sometimes even 1/2 tablet can make a huge difference.

Maybe this is related and maybe not: I also do not drink alcohol and have never seen any reason why it would be appealing.

<comment><USER14> Good for you. Also, the opioid epidemic is a real thing. I'm not sure what the point of this counterpoint is supposed to be.

<comment><USER13> Some people can benefit from the drug. But the opioid epidemic may make it difficult or impossible to obtain. That's the point.

<comment> f-securus Many of those same people can benefit from marijuana. Yet, it is still illegal nationally (in the States). Studies have shown opioid abuse has gone down in states that legalized recreational marijuana use. The opioid epidemic isn't making opioids more difficult or impossible to obtain. It is the backwards thinking war on drugs that wants to punish those who self medicate. Then they keep punishing people for arbitrary reasons. Recidivism rate in this country is far too high due to the prison/jail system's goal. It isn't to improve behavior, it is to make money. Who benefits from locking up a non-violent offender? The public foots the bill. Police officers have increased paperwork/workload which takes them away from far serious crimes. The offender doesn't receive help and has to jump through arbitrary hoops and walk a very fine line (compared to non-offenders) just to avoid re-incarceration.

We don't actively work to improve people who are struggling. The jail system in the US primarily keeps people down.

<comment><USER15> Can you point me to some studies showing that opiod abuse has gone down in states that legalized recreational marijuana use? My doctor has tried to convince me otherwise and I'd love to prove him wrong. Thanks in advance.

<comment><USER16> [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article- abstract/2676999)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Found: A Batch of DNA Molecules That Seem To Have Originated in Space - <AUTHOR> http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2011-08/building-blocks-life-can-originate-space

<comment><USER2> Interesting! Could that rock have come from earth? It would be possible that pieces of earth that escaped into orbit from a collision some time ago finally found their way back...</comment>


Show HN: MapHub – A Google My Maps Alternative, Based on OpenStreetMap Data - <AUTHOR> https://maphub.net/ <comment><USER2> Very interesting and good looking! Only a small comment: using images under Creative Commons licensing is not as simple as grabbing the image and using it as you please. Both your top [1] and bottom [2] images are licensed with the BY clause, meaning you must give appropriate credit.

[1] [https://www.planet.com/gallery/orange- river/](https://www.planet.com/gallery/orange-river/)

[2] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa2explore/21604970430](https://www.flickr.com/photos/nasa2explore/21604970430)

<comment><USER3> This is a bit off-topic, but I'm surprised that the NASA image is listed as CC-BY. I was under the impression that NASA imagery was public domain by default.

Their website [1] says "NASA content [...] generally are not copyrighted." It then goes on to say that "NASA should be acknowledged as the source of the material." IANAL, but I would assume that if the data is not copyrighted, then there's no need to attribute the source, making that "should" pretty toothless.

[1] [http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/guidelines/index.html](http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/guidelines/index.html)

<comment><USER2> Note the "generally" there. Further down it says explicitly "NASA material is not protected by copyright unless noted". In their Flickr page they have selected the CC BY-NC 2.0 license so this works, I think, as a notice of copyright that at the same time grants you a license to use the image (provided you follow the terms of said license).

<comment><USER4> If it is a work of NASA itself, it shouldn't be subject to copyright. Wikimedia has noticed their assertions:

[https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikilegal/NASA_images](https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikilegal/NASA_images)

It's easy to imagine that NASA has more limited rights to reproduce and redistribute images produced by their partners though, and they have lots of partners.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Good job! Check out what I'm working on:

[http://mapme.com/](http://mapme.com/)

[http://mapme.com/stories](http://mapme.com/stories)

If you ever want to chat maps, email@example.com :)

<comment><USER6> I just gave this a twirl and already dislike it. I can't even use it unless I sign up. So now I have to give you something before you've demonstrated any value to me.

Also, why is "category" required? Is a global namespace of map names the smartest thing to do? How often do you think people will create a map called "SF" or "Golden Gate Park"? There will be name collision all the time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Hey this looks cool. I see it's a beta, but some ideas that would be really useful to me and maybe others. MapBox (particularly the desktop version) can create custom stylesheets and do high quality image exports. I like those features if I don't plan to leave the map on the web (e.g. print, email). It would be good also to view the square area covered inside a polygon and be able to edit one once it's placed.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi! Would a PDF export be good for your print / email case? About square area, do you mean to calculate the area in square kilometres and display it for polygons? You should be able to edit a polygon once it's placed, just click the "move" icon in the top right corner of the sidebar.

<comment><USER7> 1) Yeah, definitely. I suppose one could screenshot, but having a little more fine-tuning as far as dimensions, image size, etc is far more useful. 2) For sure, much like the border distance. 3) Ah, I didn't see the edit icon. Very cool.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I love this. Anything that makes it easier for people to create custom maps using their data and OSM is fantastic in my book.

</comment><comment><USER9> The demo is great! Looks very promising. Question: would it be possible to add metro lines (not just the stations)?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi! Yes, definitely possible! Actually, if you go to the basemaps tab in the right side, you can find some specialised basemaps, for example Thunderforest / Transport has a great visual style for train and metro lines.

Now, talking about integrating it into MapHub rendered maps, it's definitely possible. I am using the open source osm2vectortiles [1] project, and the older, open source MapBox tm2 styles [2] to render the tiles, so changes can even be contributed by the community!

[1] [https://github.com/osm2vectortiles/osm2vectortiles](https://github.com/osm2vectortiles/osm2vectortiles) [2] [https://github.com/mapbox/mapbox-studio-osm- bright.tm2](https://github.com/mapbox/mapbox-studio-osm-bright.tm2)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've long left Google maps and moved onto Mapbox for all my mapping needs in side-projects. Can someone please point out how MapHub is better / different from Mapbox?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, I made MapHub. So MapBox I believe is targeting developers to create custom map solutions, not simple users who would like to share a list of favourite hiking trails, make a guide for their neighbourhood or just insert an embed on a website. The point of using MapBox I think is more if you have loads of data, or if you are looking for a custom map solution, like Strava or Foursquare uses them in their mobile app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> More than anything else, can you please add a distance calculator for the track tool? They had this in Google Maps classic but the new one removed it. I used Google Maps to plan the runs for my running team and the inability to estimate the distance is a huge problem. Google Maps has it as two separate tools now. So now I have to draw each leg of a running route twice: once to estimate where the mile is and another to actually save the route.

<comment><AUTHOR> What kind of distance tool would you use for your running team? We have one built in, where once finishing a track you can save it's length on the right side. It's only in metric units at the moment.

Would you like to have points on each kilometer / mile along the route?

<comment><USER6> It would be great if it would keep updating the distance as I drag the track along. Basically my use case is like this: I need to plan a route from starting point and it has to go for X number of miles. To satisfy that requirement I have to figure out which way to turn or which streets to take and how much farther I have to draw the route.

Here's an example of such a map:

[https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zyGHTR9wg3w8.ki2OYJV5...](https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zyGHTR9wg3w8.ki2OYJV5zJkQ&usp=sharing)

It would be great if there is a number under the cursor that tells me how long my current track is as I move the cursor and add waypoints and maybe another number to tell me the distance between the last way point and the cursor. Does that make sense?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, totally makes sense! I'll try to implement it like this!

<comment><USER6> If you implement it, you will have one paying customer right here. I would be happy to pay $50/yr to use a service like that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, we will definitely implement it! If you would like, send me an email so I can tell you once it's ready.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Neat project. I haven't signed up and tried it out yet, but I see that this allows you to upload map data on top of OpenStreetMap stuff and share it. Depending on how the data is mixed in, the OpenStreetMap ODBL might require users to share their data back with the OSM project. Are you aware of this? Do you notify your users of this as well?

The ODBL is kind of like copyleft license for databases (gross oversimplification)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi. When someone uploads a GPX or KML file, we have no knowledge about where is that data coming from, so we cannot display a notice either. Same as if someone would upload a GeoJSON to GitHub, GitHub would have no idea about where was that GeoJSON sourced from. I believe users should take care about giving proper credits in the map descriptions, and if not the author should be notified about it (which we'll be addressing with an issues like feature in the future).

<comment><USER11> I'm not a lawyer so don't take any of this as fact.

Its not an attribution issue. Its more that if the data is mixed into the database in a certain way, that data must also be made available under terms similar to the ODBl. So if I have the locations of the best Thai restaurants in a city, and I add this data to OpenStreetMap data, refine it _based_ on the existing OSM data and present it, I must make my restaurant data available under the terms of the ODBl.

If you are just overlaying data on top of image tiles generated from OSM data I think you are okay, but once you mix the data it becomes weird. For example if the OSM data has a few of those restaurants in it, and you modify your data set to remove them so there's no duplicates, I think thats a case where you must share your data back with the OSM project. You can check out the OSM (non-dev) mailing lists for more discussion on this.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi. I think I understand your issue now. So, most importantly, any data what a user creates / uploads to MapHub is totally independent from the "big" OSM database. Think about it as two totally separate datasets, we will never mix them!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is brilliant. Easy to use and the tutorial is actually helpful.

</comment><comment><USER13> Nice. I love the choice of basemaps, including the lovely Thunderforest ones which you don't see many places!

I liked the download as KML - it loaded up okay in Google Earth. Would be good to have map state in the URL bar, e.g. map position and probably basemap selected for sharing which I would imagine is in your list.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Yes, position is definitely on our list, as well as to linking to individual points. Can you explain how would you use the basemap in the URL bar? If you select a basemap on your own map, it'd be saved so there is no need to overwrite it in the URL.

<comment><USER13> Ahh yes it is saved, but since it's possible for any user to change the basemap of any map in their own session (but not save it) they may want to have that choice persist if they then share it further. It's a possibility I guess. You could use a short code to show base=T1 for example

<comment><AUTHOR> I see, so you would like to have the option to override the basemap by an URL parameter before sharing! Noted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is there a way to query OSM tags directly to build maps? For example, I do a bunch of mountain bike trail mapping, and due to judicious tagging I can pretty easily select all the assets I'd like in a map with a series of queries.

Can I select ways using a query and have them become something I wish to call out?

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you know overpass turbo [1]? You can use it to make a query over an area and export it to a GeoJSON file, which you can directly import to MapHub.

[1] [https://overpass-turbo.eu/](https://overpass-turbo.eu/)

<comment><USER14> I didn't until a few minutes ago... Sounds like this'll do what's needed. One thing I'm not clear on is if it updates as the OSM data changes?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, it won't, unless you manually update it. I am working on making an API for developers, where you can create/update map data programmatically, so you will be able to do it in a cron job for example.

<comment><USER14> Thank you; that'd be cool if it would, but it'd definitely need to be optional... Don't want some rogue edits making your map suddenly look like crap.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is really nice! Is there a chance to get elevation profiles for GPX tracks? Or an elevation profile for a manually drawn track? this would be super helpful for hiking planning.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, yes, I totally agree, calculating elevation profiles for imported and drawn tracks is a very important feature which we are working on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> It would great if I could use this site without first having to make an account. Jsbin and jsfiddle support anonymous usage quite well, and because of that are incredibly useful.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, jsbin/jsfiddle/gist like sharing is one feature we are discussing, but it is quite a delicate issue and not without risks, so we still haven't decided about it yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Very cool. Love the ability to create a simple map, and have so many different basemaps it works with. Will definitely be keeping an eye on it.

</comment><comment><USER18> Dunno if it's the site or Iron or what but I get dodgy UTF8 output and a lack of UK postcodes from the search.

e.g. searching for E14 9TP, I get this - [https://rjp.is/tmp/badsearchwonkyutf8.png](https://rjp.is/tmp/badsearchwonkyutf8.png)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, sorry to hear that. At the moment, we are using Mapzen Search [1] for geocoding, and unfortunately it has issues like this. They are working actively on fixing it, and we are also looking into implementing our own hybrid approach which would combine multiple search providers.

[1] [https://mapzen.com/projects/search](https://mapzen.com/projects/search)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Very nice to use, the tutorial is simple and well done. One major road block for me was the signup to save page

kept giving me a "Try again" error Tried different emails and passwords but it kept giving the same non descriptive "Try again" error.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm sorry to hear that this bug is still present. I've tried to diagnose it so many times, but it only happens randomly and only when running through CloudFlare. I believe that at the core of the issues is that some requests arrive twice, thus the system is trying to register the same user twice.

<comment><USER19> I don't think that's the reason, otherwise I would be able to login with the users I tried to register. And I can´t

I get "No account matches..."

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, it's a different error, I've just found out, your password should be at least 8 characters in length, is it possible that you are trying a shorter one?

<comment><USER19> Ok that works, you really need to provide meaningful hints for that, otherwise i'm afraid your signup numbers will be really low.

<comment><AUTHOR> I fixed it now. Thanks for your comment showing it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's working greatly. I stress-tested it with a few of my custom geo reference data for administrative or socio-demographic statistics. Feel free to reach me by mail if you want to test it further (FR-IRIS)

</comment><comment><USER21> Awesome, I can import a GPX file. Going to have a good play with this tonight.

</comment><comment><USER22> Creating a track from a route (Graphhopper/Mapzen) would be very cool.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you mean calculating driving / walking / cycling directions from A to B? If so, it's definitely on out roadmap!

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Would love to upload/import KML, as I have a bunch of detailed climbing/hiking maps in google that I don't have time to recreate.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi. KML import is fully supported, we especially tested KML exported from Google Earth and Google My Maps. Just click the Import button in the sidebar and select your file.

<comment><USER23> huh, couldn't see it. sorry.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> chris-at just some feedback: I got stuck in the tutorial at "Give a title to your map." \- it just sits there and won't go away (no next button). yes, I gave it a title.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm sorry that you are experiencing this bug. There should be a done button appearing once you enter any character. What browser / device are you using? Are you in the tutorial?

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> It's nice that this isn't Google, and it's a good product, but it's still a non-Free product.

I'm still looking for a FaiF version of something like this - does anybody know of one? Seems like a slap in the face to all of the OSM developers to use an entirely Free stack with a proprietary veneer on it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, I made MapHub. There is nothing I have against open sourcing parts or the full MapHub product, but it's a very delicate decision, so I'd like to wait and think more about it. Would a GitLab like business model make it more attractive for you?

<comment><USER25> Contrary to what the parent comment suggested, there's no problem with using OSM data for a proprietary service, but the home page says "An open platform", which I think is very misleading. Your platform is built on open data, but apparently it is not at all "open" itself.</comment></comment></comment>


Have a Confession? Let it out. Anonymously. - <AUTHOR> http://ineedtoconfess.org

<comment><USER2> That website is REALLY slow... and why is the admin reviewing each submission manually before releasing to the website. I just don't understand it.</comment>


BlueRobotics – T100 Underwater Thruster - <AUTHOR> http://www.bluerobotics.com/ <comment><USER2> I've experimented with building a submersible robot and - by far - the most challenging aspect of the build was creating an interface between the motor and the propellor that was waterproof in a reliable way. (applying grease or something hydrophobic on a shaft lasts only so long)

By abstracting away that schlep for me, - a schlep, which is usually the least interesting bit about a machine - these guys might be able to create something analogous to Arduino for marine robots. Before Arduino, you needed a complete test bed to get a micro-controller up and running. After Arduino, you usually focus on what you want to do, instead of getting the micro-controller to work. That shift makes creating something extremely accessible, allowing anyone to jump in and try things out. A line of products like these, might actually make robotics far more accessible than any number of kits before it. In other words, this could be the start of something incredible.

Edit: I just realised another way of phrasing what they're doing. Imagine how hard payments was before Stripe came along. These people are basically the Stripe for marine robotics, which is really awesome.

<comment><USER3> > the most challenging aspect of the build was creating an interface between > the motor and the propellor that was waterproof in a reliable way.

There does not have to be interface. Put stator inside and rotor outside, aquarium pumps works on similar principle.

<comment><USER4> The losses across that gap are expensive, though. Aquarium impellers are moving water at very low pressures.

It works if the isolation layer is very thin. However, that prevents you from going deep because of the pressure differential. Now, I wonder if you filled the sub with something inert and kept the layer thin, then the pressure differential would be a lot less and the layer a lot less likely to rip open. Might work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A similar company is SeaBotix [0] they have a similar [1] thruster for sale but it uses a brushed motor. They have a newer generation product (not separately listed) that uses brushless motors that has integrated motor controller so all you need to do is send it power and I2C speed commands.

For people interested in this I recommend checking out the RobotSub [2] competition. Each team releases papers allowing you to see how the whole vehicle fits together.

0 - [http://www.seabotix.com/](http://www.seabotix.com/)

1 - [http://www.seabotix.com/products/auv_thrusters.htm](http://www.seabotix.com/products/auv_thrusters.htm)

2 - [http://www.auvsifoundation.org/foundation/competitions/robos...](http://www.auvsifoundation.org/foundation/competitions/robosub/)

<comment><USER6> I did RoboSub for 4 years (probably the best thing a student can do to become a better engineer. That's another story for another day). The only issue with the SeaBotix thrusters is that you have to take off a screw and inject grease into them every year or so.

No indication of how BlueRobotics' thruster actually fixes this problem other than the fact that they claim they fixed it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Something I wanted to ask for a long time:

> Many of the T100′s components are American made and sourced. It's assembled > in the USA. We're proud of that.

Is that "made in the USA" thing really such a big selling point in the US? Because to me as an European that really is a little alienating. A "made in the US" logo - ok. But pointing out the proudness in marketing materials? Strange.

<comment><USER8> There's a feeling that manufacturing jobs are leaving the US at a quick rate, that anything we can do to keep them here is a 'good thing', and supporting companies that keep jobs here is equally good. Marketing as such is therefore just trying to take advantage of that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Another interesting alternative to a traditional motor is the "Slocum Glider", which dives and propels itself through the water by pumping oil between its body and an external bladder.

[http://www.whoi.edu/main/slocum-glider](http://www.whoi.edu/main/slocum- glider)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_glider](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_glider)

</comment><comment><USER10> I've used thrusters in the $1000+ range and they tend to need maintenance every several hundred hours of use in nearly ideal situations. This isn't an easy project and can be very difficult for student groups (for example) to get right or to get affordable. Good luck to this project.

</comment><comment><USER11> Wow this looks amazing.

I feel left out in the coming 'robotics revolution'. I am planning to take a couple of years off from work and switch careers into something robotics. I've been building my math base past couple of months, but I am utterly clueless as to where to even start with robotics.

<comment><USER12> > where to even start with robotics

With an EE, CS, or ME degree? Minor in biology. Nature has made by far the best robots. Definitely useful to learn from it.

<comment><USER13> I once read a fascinating article about a grasshopper(?) that uses such a fast and sudden movement to jump that the only way it could keep its two legs in sync was with a biological "gear", with teeth and everything.

Edit: Found it: [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/this-insect- has...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/this-insect-has-the-only- mechanical-gears-ever-found-in-nature-6480908/?no-ist)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> presumably this? [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847478159/the-t100-a-ga...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/847478159/the-t100-a-game- changing-underwater-thruster?ref=card)

I am worried they allow water running through the assembly, sea water is very corrosive and can't be in contact with any interesting materials (e.g. high performance magnets). /*

/* ok they use plastic bearings and stuff, not sure what the magnets are.

<comment><USER15> Thanks for the link, so they are using a brushless motor. I really like that solution for water integrity. I would guess they seal the magnets in epoxy. That would make it reasonably durable.

The surfboard is interesting. Having listened to some of the issues the wave- glider ran into in order to operate autonomously on the ocean I expect the same sort of folks will come talk to them. I heard a story (and it could be just that), that one of the wave glider experiments was going to be to count whales along the California coast, the plan was to put an active sonar pinger on the robot and ping once an hour to see if there were any whales nearby. The story goes that the project was shelved when the Navy called and informed them they would not be putting active sonar pingers into US coastal waters.

<comment><USER16> _the Navy called and informed them they would not be putting active sonar pingers into US coastal waters_

This makes no sense. Active sonar pingers are on pretty much all boats apart from small dingies.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Extremely excited about this project. Anyone that wants to get into robotics for the ocean should check out [http://www.amazon.com/Underwater-Robotics- Science-Design-Fab...](http://www.amazon.com/Underwater-Robotics-Science- Design-Fabrication/dp/0984173706)

</comment><comment><USER18> My senior engineering project in college was the development of a GPS-guided robotic boat for recreational purposes. Our team consisted of three electrical engineers with very little machine design experience (this was just the first of many aspects of this endeavor which were hilariously ill-thought out), so we ended up bashing together a makeshift thruster out of plumbing fittings and an electric trolling motor, with predictably awful results.

Seeing this brought back memories. A self-contained thruster unit intended for integration into a larger robot might just have saved our project, had it been available four years ago.

</comment><comment><USER19> [http://liquidr.com/](http://liquidr.com/)

[http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/](http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/)

</comment><comment><USER20> Looks a lot like what we did for OpenROV. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q4CirrIgWo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q4CirrIgWo)

</comment><comment><USER21> Wow, looks great! I don't have much interest in making a boat, but this looks like a great Kickstarter.

Also, the thrust and efficiency looks crazy good on those! At 50% it looks like 1.2kg + what looks like 30g/W, which is insane efficiency compared to multirotor motors on the market now. I'm guessing the fact that you're in water helps substantially with that, right?

</comment><comment><USER22> It seems like they should have waited for the surfboard thing to make it's journey before launching the kickstarter. It would have made the project seem a lot more credible. Like another poster mentioned, I'm sure a lot of drug traffickers would be willing to invest if it's proven to work

</comment><comment><USER23> This and Saildrone promise a very exciting future for ocean exploration and data gathering.

[http://www.wired.com/2014/02/saildrone/](http://www.wired.com/2014/02/saildrone/)

</comment><comment><USER24> Can't wait to attach a gopro and make an underwater drone.

<comment><USER25> I never thought aerial hobby drones were that interesting, but that sounds fascinating, as you'd be looking around in an environment seldom experienced otherwise.

<comment><USER26> I've wanted to do this and get an Oculus in the mix as well!

<comment><USER27> After reading this[1] xkcd post about the ROV he built, I've wanted to try and build a similar one when my son is old enough. Then after seeing the Oculus + drone video I wanted to add that in as well and go "diving" in Puget Sound

[1] [http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/11/05/submarines/](http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/11/05/submarines/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I am interested, tangentially, in an AR display that would fit into my dive mask. I wonder how hard this would be?

</comment><comment><USER29> "What's an underwear thruster? ... Oh, wait."

</comment><comment><USER30> I beat drug smugglers will love to use something like this.

<comment><USER31> They already have submarines: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco- submarine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco-submarine)

<comment><USER22> This would be unmanned and cost a fraction

<comment><USER32> Interesting idea. Compared to a submarine yes, but what this would more likely be up against, from the perspective of cost is a panga boat:

[http://www.independent.com/news/2012/jul/26/13-people- arrest...](http://www.independent.com/news/2012/jul/26/13-people-arrested- panga-boat-gaviota-coast/)

"The push out to sea is spurred by increased crackdowns on the border, and pangas loaded with multiple fuel barrels have been spotted as far north as San Francisco. The Los Angeles and Long Beach areas have seen a similar increase in incidents."

Lets see, to ship ~$6 million worth of pot paying someone a small fraction to drive a boat up the coast, plus a few thousand for a boat, I'm not seeing a reason why they'd want to make a drone sub to do this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Can someone name a successful, on-time, major hardware kickstarter project?

<comment><USER34> Can someone name a successful, on-time _project_? You're setting the bar quite high, aren't you?

<comment><USER33> The Oculus Rift kickstarter seems to have been delivered on-time.</comment></comment></comment>


U.S. likely to expand airline laptop ban to Europe: government officials - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-airlines-electronics-ban-idUSKBN1862QS <comment><USER2> There will be plenty to discuss if it actually happens, but in the meantime this is just a leak of a possible announcement. That's not substantive and therefore it's off topic here.

"We might make an announcement" is even weaker than "We will make an announcement", a gold standard of weakness to begin with.

Notice the words 'some', 'likely', and 'but' in the first sentence. This article walks back its own headline, like the previous one ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14311073](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14311073)).

<comment><USER3> "Likely" indicates a >50% chance. There are actual meetings planned, this week. This is not "fake news", or some "internet rumor". The actual plan is seriously considered, and only the risks of Li-Ion batteries in cargo holds is holding it up, and possibly pushback from the airlines and countries concerned.

This is valuable information because it's much easier to stop something like this before it's officially announced.

At that time it's already implemented, requires the same march through the bureaucracy to be repealed, has consequences for the administration's reputation, may invite lawsuits if airlines and airports have started spending money etc etc.

<comment><USER2> If internet forums can affect that process, you'd be better off putting such energy into larger ones whose mandates it fits. This isn't that kind that of site.

There are always urgent things going on that are more important than almost everything here. Letting HN be swayed by those means giving up on the idea of a site dedicated to intellectual curiosity, and that would be a shame.

Look at it this way: if the story happens, we'll have a thread about it. It will burn hot with toxic fumes (bad for HN) but the substantive aspects (good for HN) will hopefully outweigh that, making it worth the hit. But since the story hasn't happened yet, why burn all those health points for none of the gain?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wait, what? We're putting laptops in luggage because we're afraid that they are bombs. But laptops stored closely together in luggage with pressure changes can explode..and we don't know how to handle that.

In the name of safety we're introducing a restriction that makes people and airplanes less safe!

<comment><USER5> Well if you think about it, it makes sense. Something could be potentially improvised by a passenger. But to make a device, you would open yourself to detection via X-Rays. However, I think that the rest of the world should return the favor and ban all laptops from US incoming flights. Just as a quid pro quo.

Soon though hopefully solid state cells will come into play and this will no longer be a problem. China for instance has banned shipping all lithium ion batteries via China Post and searches actively for them... as it's a risk. You have to ship them specially declared which is pretty expensive.

<comment><USER6> >China for instance has banned shipping all lithium ion batteries via China Post

Fedex and UPS both treat lithium ion batteries as dangerous goods, _with the exception_ of batteries shipped "with equipment" i.e. shipping a laptop with its battery, without the battery being plugged in.

How does that make sense? If item A is dangerous, how does putting item B in the same shipment suddenly make item A _not_ dangerous? Is the non-powered-on laptop capable of putting out fires or something?

The Chinese rule is extremely annoying, but I'm forced to admit that at least it makes logical sense.

[0] [https://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/resources/ship/packaging/g...](https://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/batteries.html)

[1] [http://www.labelmaster.com/fedex-battery-shipping- policy](http://www.labelmaster.com/fedex-battery-shipping-policy)

<comment><USER7> The likelihood of shorting exposed terminals on a lithium ion battery is lower if those terminals are enclosed in a device.

The likelihood of crushing a lithium ion battery is lower if the battery is enclosed in a device.

<comment><USER6> "With equipment" doesn't require the battery to be actually plugged into the laptop. Most laptop manufacturers ship the laptop and the battery in separate plastic bags, and this still qualifies for the exemption.

The rule would make a lot of sense if it requires the battery to be plugged in, but it doesn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> We have offices in Europe and US. While today we travel multiple times a quarter between the offices, I can see how people will not want to cross US borders no more than once a year. I also wonder how this (plus all the shenanigans on borders control, immigrations restrictions, etc) will affect budget and headcount allocations for international companies. I think we will see an expansion of companies building R&D centers abroad and call it a day.

</comment><comment><USER9> This is guaranteed to piss off the business community.

I can think of two possible reasons:

1- The administration is trying to distract people from the Comey scandal

2- The administration expects the current ban to be challenged in court and defeated, so they are expanding it to include non-Muslim countries

We live in interesting times.

<comment><USER10> Could it be that the latest generation of laptop bombs are undetectable, and these bombs could be taken on board a USA bound flight from European airports?

Yes, per Occam's razor. Sorry to discount your conspiracy theories though.

<comment><USER11> It's not the last version of bombs. There's no reason since the invention of li-ion why terrorists wouldn't short-circuit the batteries. Guaranteed entertainment outdoors, super dangerous in confined space.

<comment><USER10> Short circuiting a lithium ion battery rarely causes more than a fire and venting

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbVHe5A6rJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbVHe5A6rJs)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Yeah... no. I've had a laptop stolen out of checked-in luggage together with other valuables. Seems like the US really doesn't want to be visited by anybody anymore.

<comment><USER13> What they want is to be able to scan/image your hard drive.

Not every passenger, but as you've mentioned, it's trivial for people to get at the contents of your luggage and for TSA agents with the keys to your TSA luggage locks it's even easier still.

If this ban is ever extended I will likely never consider flying to the states. I can only hope it doesn't infect the rest of the airline industry like the water and liquid theatre did.

<comment><USER11> Aww man, if only an airline could target the "no-bullshit" niche... Minimal screening, come on board with water and even soap and knifes if you need to, just be aware that the liability of the company for murder/piracy is 100k. But of course the major problem is the TSA, not the airline.

<comment><USER14> Liability would have to be hundreds of millions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > _DHS spokesman Dave Lapan said Kelly "hasn't made a decision but we continue > to evaluate the threat environment and have engaged in discussions with > airline representatives and other stakeholders about the threat."_

So, our homeland security department has acknowledged that there is a threat and will discuss it with the airlines. This has been transformed into "likely" by the writer, and the "some EU" countries part has been expanded to "Europe" in the headline. This is why I'm skeptical about so many things I read in the news.

<comment><USER3> From the article:

        [...] officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.

        [...] Six U.S. and European officials said they expect the
        U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to make an
        announcement but declined to say when.

This makes pretty clear that the article isn't based on the single-sentence comment by the spokesman. This is why journalists think so many of their readers lack the skills to read the ingredient list for bottled water.

<comment><USER15> > [...] officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.

In context:

> is reviewing how to ensure lithium batteries stored in luggage holds do not > explode in midair, officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.

"reviewing" is the key word.

> [...] make an announcement

But we won't know what the policy will be until they make the announcement. There is nothing in those two excerpts to indicate that this isn't speculation by the writer.

> This is why journalists think so many of their readers lack the skills to > read the ingredient list for bottled water.

That was petty.

<comment><USER3> In even more context:

"The Trump administration is likely to expand a ban on laptops on commercial aircraft to include some European countries, but is reviewing how to ensure lithium batteries stored in luggage holds do not explode in midair, officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday."

That means, literally, that officials said: "['We are' or 'The Trump administration is'] likely to expand a ban on laptops on commercial aircraft to include some European countries"

The uncertainty expressed by 'likely' is just that: uncertainty. It's not speculation by the journalist, who is actually just repeating what his sources told him.

To criticise such reporting means you will never hear about any policy until it becomes law. That would mean nobody would ever get a chance to weigh in until after the fact.

> There is nothing in those two excerpts to indicate that this isn't > speculation by the writer.

What's even more important is what's outside those two paragraphs: namely the name "Reuters", and the authors' byline: "Mark Hosenball and David Shepardson". The are institutions/people, and to a certain extend the whole system is build on the idea of trust, in the same way that you trust the neighbour you've known for years to water your plants when you're away.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This sounds increasingly counter-effective or unenforceable.

<comment><USER17> Yep travel to the US from European already is extremely cumbersome due to all the checks and long security procedures. This would not only annoy travelers but put immense pressure on the airlines flying between both continents. They must be unbelievably pissed.

<comment><USER18> > all the checks and long security procedures

Could you provide more detail?

<comment><USER17> Sure. It varies a bit depending on the airline and airport that you depart from, but this is how it looks like:

1\. ESTA application online form before the actual travel for those who don't need a Visa (most EU countries e.g.) with extensive range of questions, even about parents, social media profiles (still optional) and so on. You do only need to apply again once every few years, but before a flight you need to update the flight information (afaik).

2\. A 5 minute "interview" at check in/baggage drop (or otherwise at the gate) in which a (contracted) security personnel asks you about your trip while you wait in line. You might hear comments such as "oh so you are traveling alone to place XY? That is uncommon...". "Where do you live?" "Do you speak language XYZ?". Some airlines don't do this interview, but United does it always and I assume all U.S. airlines do it.

3\. Additional security screening at the gate for selected people (apparently by random choice), can go quick, or might take longer. They take an additional look in your luggage. Some airports even have a second official security check & and scanner infrastructure near the designated gates for U.S. flights (I have experienced this only once though, in Munich. Not sure how common it is).

4\. After arrival, immigration procedure (even for those who only want to transit). The waiting time for non-residents is usually 1-2 hours until you reach the booth. The immigration officer asks a couple of questions (or not). If you are suspicious, you are being send to 2nd check (I can't speak about that one, hasn't happened to me - but that's the stuff we often read about in the media).

5\. Customs. Some people are chosen for detailed luggage checks. The decisions seems to be made by the immigration officer (or his/her computer system), because it is based on the type of signs they write on your customs card.

If you are transiting, 6: Rechecking the luggage, a new security check to reach the gate. In most countries, there is a dedicated security check and logistics infrastructure for transiting passengers, which makes the process simple. On U.S. airports, you start again on square 1, as if you would just begin your travel, which means you might have to go to another terminal and queue up again for security. If you don't have airline frequent flyer status and thus access to the fast lane, this can take another hour (depending on the time of the day, airport and the number of TSA staff available). A 2 1/2 hour connection in EWR gets extremely tight for example, but airlines keep selling tickets with even shorter connecting times.

Overall, it is quite an ordeal. And I don't even belong to an ethnical or religious group who might be specifically targeted. For them, the stress level must be even higher.

<comment><USER19> Dublin also has a second us security check. Going Dublin to Baltimore gets the immigration questions three times at least, once at the check in line, once after the second security line and once on arrival in BWI. The queues for the second and third time are reasonably lengthy and the TSA security in Dublin airport is more pushy and invasive than normal Dublin airport security.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Seems like Canadian and Mexican airports are about to get a lot busier!

</comment><comment><USER21> _> On the operational side, measures such as stopping online check-in for U.S. bound flights or ensuring U.S. flights depart from a dedicated part of terminals are among ideas being mulled, although no decisions have yet been taken._

How would stopping online check-in help with laptops? Wouldn't a laptop ban be enforced during security screening of hand luggage?

<comment> k-mcgrady I guess it would force people to the check-in desk where they could be asked 'do you have a laptop in your carry-on?'. If they don't know about the ban this gives them a chance to put it in hold luggage. If it wasn't noticed until security it may be a bit of a nightmare.

<comment><USER21> That question could be asked during online check-in, especially if the passenger indicates they are traveling without hold luggage. There is already an online check-in question for hazardous materials.

<comment><USER22> Where it will receive the same close scrutiny to TOSs on websites are.

<comment><USER21> Not comparable. You often need passport information for online check-in and the entire experience is already tied to legal/immigration requirements. If you're doing online check-in, your goal is to avoid the time cost of agent check-in lines, so it's worth the effort to carefully enter all mandatory data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Flying to North America from Europe? Please fly to Canada first and enjoy using your laptop onboard. Then take a short hop to your US destination on which you can also use your laptop since your flight originated in Canada.

</comment><comment><USER24> Sounds like a detection technology problem. The article says it is very difficult to tell the difference between dense items on X-ray (i.e. battery v. plastic explosive). Anyone have suggestions for the TSA on better scanning technology?

<comment><USER25> Checked luggage goes through a CT scanner which is much better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> DHS has already made it clear that you don't want to enter the USA with any electronics if you value your privacy so perhaps this is a blessing in disguise.

It reminds me of the pathetic pack of attorneys general who shutdown Backpage and Craigslist's hookup page, simply making it harder to find and intervene in human trafficking. DHS is simply making it _harder_ for them to find bad guys. As if that were their goal.

<comment><USER27> ah - but when you "enter" the US you only have your carry on luggage, before you hit the baggage carousel, how are they going to make you unlock your laptop for them when it's not yet in your possession?

<comment><USER28> Setup a second checkpoint after you collect checked baggage. Problem solved.

<comment><USER27> you'll need twice as many immigration officers - travellers will get twice as many places to get hassled

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> That measure, if implemented, will boost USA business and tourism, isn't?

</comment><comment><USER30> Guess we won't be doing international business with the EU....

</comment><comment><USER31> So Trump basically just doesn't want anyone to come to the US?

</comment><comment><USER32> How is this even feasible? If Obama did this he'd be impeached almost immediately.

<comment><USER33> you would be surprised how much the appetite for Security Theater and looking strong on security outweighs partisan politics.</comment></comment>


Reddit Coins - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/coins <comment><USER2> I don't know why I expected this to be block chain related...

<comment><USER3> That's not an unreasonable assumption considering Reddit has in the past announced that they would be doing research into adding a cryptocurrency to Reddit, to give "more ownership to its users". AFAIK that plans have been dropped a long time ago.</comment></comment>