A new technology, virtual embodiment, challenges our understanding of who we are - <AUTHOR> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/02/are-we-already-living-in-virtual-reality <comment><USER2> As someone with chronic sleep paralysis ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)), it is astonishing how frequently I read about pseudo-paranormal or "OBE" experiences and go, yeah, that's just sleep paralysis man.

Although, the causes of sleep paralysis still aren't well understood, so maybe it's a VR bug after all ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

<comment><USER3> Same, I've had sleep paralysis for as long as I can remember. A lot of stories of alien abduction, out-of-body experiences, mystical visitations by nightmares and demons, &c. strike me as plainly SP. Learning that it's a normal sleep disorder made the experience less frightening and confusing, and kept me from falling into the trap of thinking of it as supernatural. Now if I have an episode I just relax and wait for it to be over. I haven't had one in a long while, though, by avoiding triggers such as sleep deprivation, stress, alcohol, and sleeping on my back. Unfortunately, that also means I have to avoid lucid dreams, which are closely related—and yet as far as I've seen, this connection is rarely talked about except by the lucid dreaming community (also often rather mystical and full of woo).

<comment><USER4> I've had SP a few times, more often on the couch than in bed for some reason. A friend that has these experiences very often gave me his pro tip for dealing with them, as soon as you realize you're having SP, simply use all of your will to bend your index finger, the second you get your finger to bend, you snap out of it. Worked for me the few times I've had to use it, and it gives you something to focus on at the same time.

<comment><USER3> Sure, different things work better for different people, and that method is certainly worth a try, as I've heard it works for many people with SP. Fighting it tends to just make it worse for me—usually giving me a false awakening after which I often wake up paralysed again, sometimes two or three times. Sometimes it does help to try to regain control of my breathing—a big part of the anxiety for me is being "stuck on auto". Could be related to sleep apnea, dunno.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is a fascinating and frightening technology. Used altruistically, this can heal a lot of people and prejudices. But how long until people use it to reinforce their own prejudices, simulate dehumanizing scenarios, or force it on others as sci-fi-level brainwashing form of propaganda?

</comment><comment><USER6> I'm working my way through Being No One at the moment. It's very interesting, and (to me, anyway) sounds like he's on the right track with his 'transparent self-model' understanding of consciousness.

Interestingly a lot of robotics seems to work the same way - the robot has a model of itself and the world around it, and when it "looks at the world" it's actually looking at that model.

<comment><USER7> It's also worth reflecting on your model of reality and color. RF wavelengths vary along a single dimension, the wavelength. But we perceive red, green and blue. Sometimes we don't perceive the wavelength if it's outside our visual range, it never is mapped into the model, unless we lift it into visual range with sensors (IR) or dig into it through the analytical mind.

<comment><USER6> It's actually quite scary if you think too much about it - what we 'see' and 'hear' and 'feel' as our nice neat comprehensible rectilinear 3D world with directional audio and consistent textures and shapes etc. is nothing like what's "really" there, there's just a 2-way mapping between our model and "reality". All that's really there is an invisible hot soupy sea of quarks fizzing around at ludicrous speed.

<comment><USER8> There is a certain sense in which one has never actually interacted with anything other than one's own brain. It's not the _only_ sense of things, but it's one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This reminds me of the time when I lost my sense of self for a moment, that suddenly the world was just kind of happening and I had no precedent over the cars passing, everything being quite equal. I guess it was a bit of ego-death without any drugs or meditation.

Also interesting that the author mentioned Emptiness. I couldn't help but be reminded of Zen throughout.

</comment><comment> white-flame It looks like we can finally simulate the experience of this classic: [http://pbfcomics.com/comics/freaking_vortex/](http://pbfcomics.com/comics/freaking_vortex/)

</comment><comment><USER10> Finally, the truth of a fridge magnet I've had since last century makes itself apparent: I'M NOT MYSELF TODAY — MAYBE I'M YOU</comment>


How are musicians producing synchronised duets with video over the internet? - <AUTHOR> If internet latency is generally too long (>40ms) for realtime musical collaboration, what is the likely system for achieving this? I am aware of Ninjam which uses an increased delay and musical intervals but that is audio only. <comment><AUTHOR> E.g. [https://twitter.com/garybarlow/status/1246467569315221505?s=...](https://twitter.com/garybarlow/status/1246467569315221505?s=21)

With apologies for using Gary Barlow as an example.</comment>


Anyone interested in green business news "y-combinator style"? - <AUTHOR> http://news.virid.us/

<comment><USER2> <http://www.newmogul.com/>

<comment><AUTHOR> I should of said _green_ business

<comment><USER3> I'd be interested in a site with articles that relate to green business and/or green initiatives.

e.g. [http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=...](http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13031214)

I learned about 1BOG <http://1bog.org/> from that one.</comment></comment></comment>


My dream co-founder (a little correction from a reply) - <AUTHOR>

My dream co-founder doesn't have to be someone famous. It certainly doesn't have to be my friend. (Friends sometimes don't take friends serious. Trust me, I had some experience). My dream co-founder is someone I know; someone I can trust; someone I can share the vision with; my dream co-founder is my soul mate. Ironically, my co-founder is not too far away from that; he's a great guy. <comment><USER2> Well, thanks for sharing this. It's going to make a huge difference to my life. I've now wasted a minute I'll never get back.

</comment><comment><USER3> wtf?

</comment><comment><USER4> Co-founding a family, eh?

</comment><comment><USER5> Nice for you, congrats, sounds like the perfect situation :)

</comment><comment><USER6> ok?</comment>


Why Are Police Officers More Dangerous Than Airplanes? - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/opinion/sunday/traffic-stop-police-accident.html <comment><USER3> My wife's uncle is a trained engineer, worked in a high-level mergers and acquisitions division of a well-known company, and is an aerobatics pilot. He says that the reason flying is so safe compared with any other form of transport is because of the ubiquitous and relentless use of check-lists, and the deep investigation of every incident. After each incident the check-lists are re-visited to see if the causes could be prevented. The investigations are carried out by independent bodies with their only aim being to find the truth.

When I wondered out loud once why such an approach isn't taken for other services and industries, a friend of mine - born forty with cynicism to spare - said "Rich people fly."

Perhaps the same approach to incidents in the maritime environment, and incidents involving the police, isn't taken because somehow the people most affected are seen as somehow not really worth the time and effort. It's not the rich people, the people in power, who are affected.

I really hope that's not true, because if it is, nothing will change.

<comment><USER4> Once you go full cynic you start thinking govts are created to protect the wealthy and wars are instigated to generate more wealth.

Then they call you a conspiracy nut so society ostracizes you and ignores your observations

<comment><USER5> Airlines are accountable to the market. Cops are accountable to their ego.

Soon as you figure out someone's motivation their actions become obvious.

Edit: if precincts got paid based on customer satisfaction we'd see an overnight change making the police force unrecognizable. Crazy how money do that.

<comment><USER6> Regarding the money aspect: for someone living in western Europe, the police budget and income system in the USA seems crazy. How could they possibly do that they are supposed to do (uphold the law) with a system that forces them to select their actions based on the money it will generate for them.

<comment><USER5> "Upholding the law" is such a subjective idea. An officer can uphold the law by running a speed traps and earning the department more money. They could alternatively do difficult investigatory work looking into violent crimes that would deliver more value to the community. If a community is the employer of officers it seems strange that officers would be held accountable to anything besides the needs of the community.

Developers live in a world of scrum, points, and delivering value. I think whoever pays for the officers salary should be the "product owner" of the police department.

<comment><USER7> "I think whoever pays for the officers salary should be the "product owner" of the police department"

Like what, the local governor/censor/consul/manor lord?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Few police departments are into internal self-improvement. When they get better, it's usually due to heavy pressure from the outside. Sometimes getting a new police chief from the outside helps. But there's no institutional oversight system to make them better.

Some top cops, such as Bratton, have written autobiographies. Improving a police department is mostly hard work, management controls that measure results, better training, firing a few underperformers, and common sense.

Traffic stops are a big problem.[1] About 5000 US cops a year are injured during traffic stops, usually by other traffic. About 7 cops per year are shot during traffic stops. The big risk to cops is being run over, not being shot. Some training materials don't get this.[2]

[1] [http://www.forcescience.org/trafficstop.html](http://www.forcescience.org/trafficstop.html) [2] [http://resources.learningforlife.org/exploring/lawenforcemen...](http://resources.learningforlife.org/exploring/lawenforcement/study/tstop.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER9> Because airplanes are very, very safe.

That said, police could definitely do a better job. Body cameras may have to be always-on (but queried only for relevant portions, or if the officer is dead) at some point. Currently they seem to be off at crucial times in an encounter.

</comment><comment><USER10> Americans are eight times more likely to be killed by a cop than a terrorist.

[http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-killed- nearly-9000-ci...](http://www.mintpressnews.com/us-police-killed- nearly-9000-civilians-since-911/218381/)

[http://www.businessinsider.com/death-risk-statistics- terrori...](http://www.businessinsider.com/death-risk-statistics-terrorism- disease-accidents-2017-1)

<comment><USER11> If you exclude 9/11, it's got to be a lot higher. Killings by police are constant, whereas terror attacks are spiky. Like, in the past 10 years, what percentage of days included at least one killing by the police, vs. killing by terrorists.

The "eight times" statement is just referring to causalities over a time period, which I think end up over-representing the true danger from terrorists. The businessinsider link does a pretty good job to addressing that point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> The next you want to think that a police officer may have been too on edge, consider this [https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb7_1502405948](https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb7_1502405948)

<comment><USER13> A liveleak video depicting a single graphic anecdote is about as far from useful data as a piece of multimedia can be.

<comment><USER14> This is an example, that you should consider as a possibility.

<comment><USER15> It's possible the officer's approach to the situation/suspect contributed to causing the result. Perhaps use a whole different approach (less aggressive and more conversational), or tase the guy sooner, or back off until you have backup before continuing the encounter. The outcome might've been the same regardless, and the cop did not deserve to get shot, but cops need to realize that just issuing commands aggressively may not be the best approach and the job may require more nuance especially given the target demographic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Because planes don't walk around carrying guns and a head full of bias and fear? Because police officers are not multi-million-dollar engineering marvels?

What editor fell asleep and allowed this to be posted?

</comment><comment><USER17> Broken tail light, speeding and other infractions should just be automatic tickets from a dash cam on the squad car or a speed camera. Same with illegal lane change or carpool violations. They can be mailed to the registered owner.

<comment><USER18> Perhaps, but I think that this misses an important aspect of those first few examples: safety.

The reason that people are pulled over for speeding, broken tail lights and illegal lane changes are so that they can be convinced to remedy the situation and make things safer. The punishment is not meant to be the only outcome of the incident.

You may well be correct (after all, static speed cameras exist, and apparently have an effect), but personally I'd want to see a fairly detailed analysis to convince me that you are correct.

<comment><USER17> People speed, drive with broken tail lights and illegal overtake or change lanes all of the time. Only a small fraction of those offenses are captured by law enforcement. In making a stop, we are trading the safety of the public in general against the safety of the driver and officer from the interaction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Wait ... this context is bs. There is an entire human element driving this data. The police interacting with other people. If the driver of every car was a predictable machine then then this is just as preventable as flying. Pilots interact with machines not people. And there are a good number of those 1000 that die that deserved to die and thankfully we have brave people to go after those crazys. This is police hate and criminal pandering with such vague statememts. Is this hacker news or an antifa forum?

<comment><USER20> > Mr. Bell hired his own investigators. They contend that it all began with > faulty equipment: Officer Erich Strausbaugh's holster caught on a cable > dangling from one of the cars' side-view mirrors, so that when he tackled > Michael, he felt a powerful tug on his belt. Assuming that the young man had > grabbed for his weapon, he called out to his partners, "He's got my gun."

And then they lied about it. What is brave about that, in this case? Yes, there are uncountable cops doing untold amounts of great "work" (I put it in quotes not to belittle it, but because I think it's more noble than that). I even think the "blue shield" does serve a valid purpose a lot of times, but it's when it's abused that is the problem. And that _is_ a problem.

Here's an idea how actual guts might look like:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2652/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK2652/)

> This chapter examines reporting of health care errors (e.g., verbal, > written, or other form of communication and/or recording of near miss and > patient safety events that generally involves some form of reporting system) > and these events' disclosure (e.g., communication of errors to patients and > their families), including the ethical aspects of error-reporting > mechanisms. The potential benefits of intrainstitutional and Web-based > databases might assist nurses and other providers to prevent similar hazards > and improve patient safety. Clinicians' fears of lawsuits and their self- > perceptions of incompetence could be dispelled by organizational cultures > emphasizing safety rather than blame. This chapter focuses on the assertion > that reporting errors that result in patient harm as well as seemingly > trivial errors and near misses has the potential to strengthen processes of > care and improve the quality of care afforded patients.

Looking a relative in the eye and telling them their loved one is dead because you made a honest or even careless mistake -- now THAT is bravery. I don't know if anyone is actually _doing_ that just because it's in the guidelines who wouldn't also do it if it wasn't -- but do similar guidelines at least exist for police? Because if you swap out some words, all of that could be said about police work, too.

It doesn't get much more hateful than lying about someone you killed. After that comes defending such incidents, then there is a big gap, and _then_ comes "all cops are pigs" on the hate scale. That doesn't justify the latter, but I don't know what moral high ground you think you're posting from.

> And there are a good number of those 1000 that die that deserved to die and > thankfully we have brave people to go after those crazys

A "good number" would be 1000. What "good number" do _you_ have in mind? If it's even just 999 or less, would _you_ swap with one of the innocent people who got killed? And why do the others "deserve to die"? Because it has to be that way, in your mind, or because you looked at the individual incidents? Wouldn't they deserve even more to get disarmed and do their sentence or whatever?

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I am a bit perplexed by the "new technology":

>The students created a smartphone app, called Virtual Traffic Stop, that allows him to do just that. After the officer pulls a driver to the side of the road, he would use the app to start a video chat with the driver as a first point of contact, allowing him to observe whether the driver seemed mentally ill or dangerous, notice clues in the interior of the vehicle and review identification documents.

Just to name one, I don't have usually a smartphone, or a switched on smartphone, when driving, and the police officer should have a way to find and call my phone number, which not necessarily is linked to the car license plate.

And this data would be interesting:

>In some cities, when you roll through a stoplight, a camera catches you in the act, and a few weeks later you receive a ticket in the mail. Data suggests that this automatic system is far cheaper than "human" ticketing and reduces pedestrian deaths. And a camera can't kill people.

Undoubtedly it is cheaper, the point is how much it contributes to safety.

I confess that I received one of those tickets (the fact that a large number of people received one since seemingly the municipality put the camera _and_ shortened to the bare legal minimum - possibly even less than that - <USER2> yellow light time is another thing).

Frankly after 2 1/2 months I didn't even remember to have gone through that particular traffic light/intersection, I paid the fine and that was it.

By contrast a couple of times that police stopped me, even if they at the end resolved to not fine me, they "stopped my driving" right there, so if I was doing something - if not illegal - "border line" with dangerous they actually prevented me from continuing doing it, by forcefully inserting a "pause".

<comment><USER22> >Just to name one, I don't have usually a smartphone, or a switched on smartphone, when driving, and the police officer should have a way to find and call my phone number, which not necessarily is linked to the car license plate.

Sure it's a flawed idea, but may result in better ideas. For example, what about integrating that technology into the car itself? Yeah there are problems to be overcome (doesn't help with cars already out on the road, needs to account for spoofing and 4th Amendment considerations), but it is an interesting direction.

<comment><USER21> I don't think that those aspects you mention, i.e. retrofitting existing cars, spoofing/hacking of the devices and 4th amendment (or similar privacy Laws where applicable) issues are so trifling.

The idea in itself may be good but the technology hypothized seems "way off".

I would find more doable that police corps were issued a remotely contolled camera (think of a small robot or drone) capable of crawling (or flying) in front of the windshield of the stopped car and show to the officer the inside.

<comment><USER23> Yeah, this seems like a good idea and pretty doable. Every police car could have a drone that would be useful in a variety of situations. In a traffic stop, it could take off from the roof of the police car and land on the windscreen of the stopped car. A small screen can relay instructions to the driver while he is filmed.

With the prices of quite powerful drones coming down so dramatically, this might even be a cost effective way to save lives, while at the same time giving police an extra tool for lots of situations, not just traffic stops.

I wonder if there's business potential in making roof mounted drones that can land on windshields. Ideally, it could also record sound by latching onto the windshield and detecting vibrations with some sort of contact or laser microphone but I'm not sure how realistic that would be ([https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00542-015-2795-x](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00542-015-2795-x) looks like a start).

<comment><USER21> I was thinking more along the lines of something like this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hornet_Nano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hornet_Nano)

Or of the micro-bugs/robot spiders in Minority Report, I mean the idea is that the police officer can see inside the (already stopped) car, to give orders he/she can shout or use the microphone and loudspeaker, that all patrol cars have, I believe, in the US.

There is always an issue with language, maybe, but the idea of the small screen with text assumes that the stopped driver can see it properly (imagine an older chap that reaches for his spectacles ...).

<comment><USER23> That is a very cool drone. I doubt that it needs to be so small though. I was thinking of something like a customized mavic pro. Automatic position keeping, person tracking (potentially both officers and suspects) and automatic navigation to particular locations, plus the ability to operate reasonably well in high winds and perhaps cost too argue for something a bit larger and heavier.

In most countries, ability to read street signs is part of the requirement for a drivers license. Reaching for spectacles isn't as threatening if the police are back sitting in the patrol car anyway, and there are always edge cases - how do police interact with deaf drivers now? (edit: just checked, seems like they get shot disproportionately often...)

But yeah, maybe the screen (which could include glyphs as well as text, or multiple languages) wouldn't work. I'd need to experiment to see what sort of size you could get away with and how reliably you could make sure it was visible. Of course having a screen doesn't preclude the use of loudspeaker either.

<comment><USER21> >In most countries, ability to read street signs is part of the requirement for a drivers license.

Older people tend to develop presbyopia, they can see and read signs alright, i.e. they drive normally without correction lenses but they need them to read at "windscreen distance".

At least at the time my father managed to collect a fair number of speed tickets, claiming that he couldn't see properly the speedometer.

As a side note, "in most countries" traffic stops ending up in a shooting or more generally people shot by police are much more rare than in the US.

The (unofficial) numbers reported on this Wikipedia page:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#Comparison_of_countries)

are impressive.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> The only justice at this point that can equalize the situation is an eye for an eye. Cops that kill innocent people are guilty of murder and should be executed. The death penalty should apply to all public officials, cops and prosecutors especially, when they murder someone like in this story. They should be held to a _higher_ standard than everyone else in society, not lower. Without an independent investigation and _extremely harsh_ punishments, this situation will never even begin to be fixed. I'm tired of all this apologizing for police murders. We need to fix the incentive system, which now incentivizes police to not care and shoot first. These days, when I read about police being killed, I feel no empathy. At least the score is somewhat evened out. After all, I'm certain police feel no empathy for the innocent people they murder. I can't feel empathy for people in a profession whose stated goal is only their safety at the expense of anything and everyone else, people that society entrusts with great power for the greater good. If they can't be public servants and shoulder such responsibility, they should find other jobs before they murder innocent people. I fear police more than I fear anything else. It's a rational, justified fear in the US. This is definitely not justice. This is definitely not serving. This is definitely not protecting.

<comment><USER25> Do you know anyone who is a cop?

Let me tell you about my buddy's first week on the job as a police officer in what most would consider a small town with low crime. Keep in mind that prior to this he was a school teacher.

On his second day, a single-car car accident. Three young girls in the car, one had her brains hanging out of her head, one was halfway through the window mangled, bloody and dead, and the third was thrown from the vehicle and was "fucked up pretty bad". He said he could see her ribs where the skin had been torn away. Drunk driver, speeding, no seat belts. Guess who gets to deals with that shit?

A few nights later, a woman calls the police on her husband. He's a vet with PTSD and she tells the cops he took his guns and wanted to kill a cop.

An APB is put out on his car but before the police found it there was a call about a guy walking around in a park with a riffle. So the police surrounded the park and went hunting for the guy. Now my buddy, who a year ago was teaching kids in a prep school is walking through the woods where a trained soldier is looking to kill him. At the same time, 15 police officers are all converging from different vectors and trying not to shoot each other in the confusion.

After searching the woods they find his parked car and surround it. They can see him sitting in the front seat and tell him to put his hands up. He never complies. He never complies because he's already blown his brains out.

My buddy got to see that too. Can you imagine what dealing with this stuff does to your mind?

It gets better. When they get to his wife's house to tell her that her husband is dead she says "Good, how?" Perplexed my buddy said "He shot himself in the head in his car." Her response: "The car? That fucking bastard".

Can you imagine?

I live in a nice place. I had no idea this kind of crap goes on. This didn't even get a mention in the paper.

My point is, you don't know what the police do on a daily basis. And you don't even know how much you don't know.

There are no superheroes out there, but most cops are the closest things we have to them.

You should totally join. It sounds like you'd make it all look easy.

<comment><USER24> How does any of this justify murder and covering up a murder? I never said the job was easy. I said cops should be held to higher standards than everyone else in society because they are public servants who have the power to kill. Your argument boils down to cops have a hard job therefore they should be held to a lower standard and allowed to get away with murder. That's just injustice. Other societies are able to control their police. Why can't ours?

<comment><USER26> Very few of police shootings are straight up murder. The ones that were unjustified are usually criminally negligent homicide.

Cops really aren't held to a lower standard. They are held to the same standard, except they aren't required to retreat from a dangerous situation. Instead, they are forced by their job to confront it.

Other professions that deal in high risk don't really face much criminal legal prosecution either. Doctors who kill their patients accidentally rarely face jail.

The country does a terrible job training and preparing them for it. Another big issue is that cops have a pretty reasonable fear that suspects will be armed, which police in other countries don't really face.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Mounting clues suggest the coronavirus might trigger diabetes - <AUTHOR> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01891-8 <comment><USER2> Those who suffer from the virus can also develop a host of other things. Look up how many people developed ME/CFS (Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) post SARS and how many are experiencing the same symptoms after "recovering" from COVID-19. Some are months into their recoveries with no signs of going back to their old normal.

I wish it was talked about more instead of people dismissing the fact that if a large percentage of those who get severe symptoms develop chronic illnesses, this is going to be a lot bigger than "just a flu". It far from just a flu. My significant other happens to be a SARS survivor who's been dealing with chronic illness since "recovering" from the infection in 2003. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I hope diabetes isn't yet another condition that many will develop after this.

<comment><USER3> People have already started appearing in various chronic illness forums around the world with what sounds very much like ME/CFS after having caught Sars2. The official diagnosis takes at least 6 months of having the symptoms and its notoriously badly diagnosed throughout the world due to the incredibly flawed PACE study that painted it as a physchological disease.

Doctors need to be quickly educated on the known blood bio marker combination (igG, lymocytes 2% and antibody complexes all abnormal) until the Stanford nano needle salt stress test is developed and released. They need to ensure patients are put onto a pacing regime which will slow the rate at which they get worse.

Many epidemics have caused ME/CFS "outbreaks" and it has no treatment and almost no research has even been done. 5% of people recover but some also die, most are broken for life. Doctors often think its diabetes as it presents with similar systemic issues but the insulin tests usually come up fine. Its critical they do immune system and full thyroid tests and get the diagnosis and the treatment correct early as each over exertion will permenantly degrade their patients energy levels.

<comment><USER4> Can the asymptomatic who never present symptoms, or those whose symptoms don't land them in a testing facility / hospital, also develop these chronic illnesses? Is that known?

<comment><USER3> About 80% of ME/CFS patients know the day they caught the virus that caused their ME/CFS, but the other 20% don't. Whether that is because 20% of sufferers have a completely different trigger circumstance or because they were asymptomatic is unknown, like I said there has been almost no research in 70 years since the first outbreak was classed as mass hysteria and its been ignored and patients abused ever since until the last 2 years when research finally started to trickle in and get funded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I am not a doctor but both my kids are T1D so I am quite familiar with it.

This part stood out to me;

> _In most people with type 1 diabetes, the body's immune cells start > destroying β-cells — which are responsible for producing the hormone insulin > — in the pancreas, often suddenly. In Gnadt's case, Hollstein suspected that > the virus had destroyed his β-cells, because his blood didn't contain the > types of immune cells that typically damage the pancreatic islets where the > β-cells live._

If the virus damages the islets it could suppress insulin production, but without an autoimmune response there's reason to be hopeful that the damage is only temporary and that the pancreas can recover.

TFA says that whether the virus directly attacks cells or induces an immune response, and whether the damage is permanent or not, are both areas under active investigation.

<comment><USER5> I will add that it's very common for what doctors believe to be "latent" T1D to be "triggered" by a viral episode.

The theory is that the body is somehow primed to have the auto-immune response, and that it is essentially inevitable, but it takes some unrelated stress/immune response to kick off the cascading failure.

In that regard it wouldn't be surprising to see the typical rate of T1D diagnosis just happening to be triggered by the currently predominant virus, i.e. COVID, but in that case you would expect to see the tell-tale antibodies, and the overall incidence rate of T1D in the population would not spike.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> [https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19positive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19positive/)

Is full of people with long duration recovery periods _.

_ Caveats are that only people with long duration symptoms would find that place and post there. Also, it could just be something else that the person is blaming on their Covid diagnosis.

Given the volume of posts on long term recoveries, it seems likely that there's more impact than a normal get-sick-for-3-days flu.

<comment><USER7> I really wonder what the long term economic impact of a chronically fatigued population will be. It's clear by now that a) the virus isn't going away, and b) a lot of, if not most, people will get it.

If a substantial portion of the infected also develop a host of long term health issues, what's going to be the economic cost?

We seem to have been focusing on deaths as a key metric which has made a lot of younger people complacent. Apart from anecdotal accounts, I have seen very little reporting on the long term health effects among survivors

<comment><USER8> There's just no way to really measure long term health effects at this point, because the vast majority of infectees aren't past the normal timeline for full recovery from a serious disease. (Fatigue reports in particular _probably_ shouldn't be concerning, since post-pneumonia fatigue is known to continue for 3-6 months.)

<comment><USER9> That's what has been so confusing for me to sort out. COVID seems, according to what I can see, to have an extra-long recovery period for many people.

I had walking pneumonia and bronchitis two years ago, and even with treatment it took a good 5 months to get out from under that in anything near 90% capacity.

Is COVID that? Or is it worse? This gives me more anxiety than the deaths, to be honest.

<comment><USER10> There is as yet insufficient information on exactly what covid19 does to our biology, and consequently there is a lot of guesswork and misinformation flying around. Researchers are in hair-on-fire triage mode, there's an enormous amount of pressure to just "figure it out", people keep forgetting that the first word for this infection's official name is "novel", and they keep likening it to things that they do understand even though it's not really any of those things.

So we don't know. Nobody does right now. It takes time. It is _really_ unfortunate that it keeps getting compared to other diseases. It's a lot like encountering malaria for the first time and saying "it's basically yellow fever". We should be behaving as though there's a mysterious new illness sweeping through populations across the world, with unknown short-term and long-term effects, because that's exactly what's happening.

The earliest severe cases all presented as pneumonia, so this disease got treated that way. But, it was quickly discovered that the pneumonia didn't behave quite like normal cases of pneumonia, and then shortly after that, there turned out to be a strong correlation with cardiac and stroke events. So, although people still think of this as a respiratory disease, there is _something_ else going on, we just don't know what yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> While the general response to COVID-19 is already infuriating for so many reasons, it's especially frustrating to see people think it's "OK" to get it since they'll probably "recover".

It needs to be drilled into people of all ages that "recovery" is terrible terminology. Congratulations, maybe you didn't die but you still may very well develop _lifelong_ conditions that really screw up your body and your lifestyle (and, if that's not enough, consider the healthcare costs).

Furthermore, if a person's only complaint about pandemic rules is their "inconvenience", it's time to grow up. No one owes you convenience, and this is definitely the point in your life to figure out how to do what's better for society. Put on a mask. Follow the rules. And learn more about this, from actual health professionals, not politicians with mile-long track records of lying.

<comment><USER12> If you live alone, "follow the rules" means "do not come within six feet of another human being any time in the next several years." That is a heavier psychological burden than most people will ever carry in their lives. It doesn't serve anyone to trivialize it.

<comment><USER13> Well put! These preachy "just follow the rules" kind of comments garner lots of upvotes but completely underplay what it means to be human.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> In general we have to look much closer at viruses causing chronic illnesses or autoimmune disorders.

Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV) is another one where lots of ailments seem to follow - I speak from personal experience combined with many reports both online and acquiantances.

Ever since having mono/kissing disease/EBV my body hasn't been remotely the same.

<comment><USER15> Me too! It was very serious. Years later I'm still tired. Do you have any links or suggestions? I'm down for anything that may help.

<comment><USER16> I have had the same experience. I accidentally drank another person's water bottle at the gym after a set, a few weeks later I had Mono. I have never had the same energy level that I used to have. I used to love working out and had so much energy, that is all gone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> This would be bad, but effect sizes are important. If it imposes a 1/1000 incremental odds of developing diabetes, that would be terrible, but not as bad as its 1/100 incremental odds of death.

<comment><USER18> If the deaths come to people who are elderly or otherwise close to death anyways and the diabetes comes to a bunch of otherwise healthy 18 year olds the impacts could be different than mere effect sizes would indicate. (Type 1 diabetes is like -10 years to life expectancy).

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's possible that SARS-CoV-2 isn't unique in that regard. We don't know whether other viruses might also cause the same damage because we haven't really looked. We know some of the risk factors for diabetes such as obesity, but patients with similar known risk factors have different outcomes. Maybe other viral infections are a missing factor?

<comment><USER20> The strange thing about SARS-CoV-2 is that viral load varies in human tissue. You could have small concentrations of SARS-CoV-2 in cardiomyocytes, for instance.

<comment><USER19> How is that strange? Many different viruses can cause some level of myocarditis while also infecting other tissues to varying extents.

<comment><USER20> I've never read of any type of coronavirus causing myocarditis and heart failure in patients. Also have never read of coronavirus being present in other locations of the body, other than nasal/sinus area and lungs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> T1 diabetes is a strange disease, my brother has it and he was not remotely over-weight although in college and after, his diet was terrible(he also was extremely vitamin D deficient from avoiding the sun). He developed it in his late 20's. Another friend has it and he got it as a kid, he said it came on after a very bad bout of pneumonia he had beforehand, and his Dr's think that is what may have triggered it but who can say. Perhaps either a extremely hard illness or a vitamin deficiency can bring it on, covid-19 seems to fit the bill with accounts of people with low vitamin D levels getting more severe cases, and the fact that it attacks the entire body looking for weaknesses.

<comment><USER22> > he was not remotely over-weight

That's not surprising at all, since there's no correlation between weight and T1D.

<comment><USER23> From [https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/629/5060447](https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/39/5/629/5060447)

"Obesity, once rare in type 1 diabetes (T1D), is now an increasingly frequent problem (3–5). Accumulating evidence on the prevalence and consequences of obesity in T1D shows very clearly that this comorbidity is both underappreciated and poorly understood." .... " The considerable obesity burden in youth with T1D was confirmed, also in the T1DX, where the prevalence of obesity (BMI ≥95th percentile) was 13.5% in adolescents (mean age 15.4 years), with higher prevalences in those of black/African American descent (17.9%) and Hispanic/Latino descent (15.9%) between the years of 2010 and 2012."

<comment><USER24> My suspicion from diabetic research I did both prior and during my wife's gestational diabetes, is that the increase in obesity that may have occurred in the last 60 years is due to bad dieting advice for T1 diabetics.

The fundamental health issue with diabetes is managing blood glucose levels. This is best done with low carb meals with slow carbs along with small amounts of periodic insulin. But for some reason common advice for diabetics is to eat large amounts of fast carbs and then take large doses of insulin. This combination is just begging for added weight (and increased risk of insulin sensitivity to boot).

<comment><USER22> > But for some reason common advice for diabetics is to eat large amounts of > fast carbs and then take large doses of insulin

That's odd, I've been diabetic for about 10 years now and have never heard this advice from any doctor or dietician that I've seen.

<comment><USER25> Are you in the US?

I've heard from several americans that this was the recommended ADA advice (luckily changed at some point in the last 5 years or so).

However, outside the US it seems that the recommendation has always beem to minimize carbs.

<comment><USER26> I'm in the US, and all of the advice I've recovered from every doctor and nutritionist is to limit carbohydrates. You can "cover" as you put it, and you're trained to be able to do that when the situation arises, but the baseline diet that I was given is certainly low carb by comparison to typical diet recommendations (not ketogenic, but far from "eat whatever you want").

While I'm sure there are plenty of nurses and doctors out there giving rushed and questionable advice, I'd be surprised to find that this advice is "common" (though many patients may "hear what they want" so to speak).

<comment><USER25> See e.g. [https://feinmantheother.com/2013/12/27/american-diabetes- ass...](https://feinmantheother.com/2013/12/27/american-diabetes-association- embraces-low-carbohydrate-diets/) \- but you have to read at least until the middle (spoiler: this blog post is from 2013, but the recommendations therein were only embraced 2019 or so).

Author is a professor of biochemstry, who is quite well known as a good scientist (but it's likely much of his name recognition comes from sharing a similar sounding name to a more famous person ....)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I am overweight, love candy, chocolate, ice cream, both sides of my family have a history of diabetes.

How could you possibly tease out that covid triggered diabetes in me when I am doing such a good job myself?

<comment><USER28> The article suggests it might trigger type 1. You're mostly risking type 2.

<comment><USER29> There seems to be a growing movement to have two different public facing names as, more and more, people are having trouble parsing out the difference in the written and spoken media, which often just uses the singular term, "diabetes".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> My wife's cousin's husband developed type 1 diabetes (at 40) after he and his family got over a flu-like illness a couple months ago.

They tested negative for covid but this makes me wonder.

<comment><USER31> Apparently the flu might be able to cause type 1 diabetes too: [https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22456-diabetes- linked...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22456-diabetes-linked-to- flu/) (In general, it seems like other viruses have a lot of odd and rare effects that just don't get as much attention as anything involving Covid-19, giving the dubious impression that it's somehow different from other viruses in this regard.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> This thing is really, really bad.

<comment><USER33> A lot of viruses trigger T1D, this thing is mostly getting a lot of press and researchers attention. It's also so contagious that we are getting unprecedented streams of data from symptomatic and asymptomatic patients.

SARS was worse with the consequences but less contagious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> So many caveats missing from this title and the article it feels like click bait. (It worked, I clicked). Are there per-existing conditions? What is the prevalence of this effect?

How long does this conditon last?

It can't be that frequent if it took 6 months to find enough cases. It's like the Kawasaki-like syndrom in kids with COVID-19. It happens, but what is the prevalence?

Just anecdata in the article and « we need more study »

</comment><comment><USER35> I think it's more likely that people already on the verge of "triggering" diabetes are simply more likely to catch coronavirus due to their general poor health and therefore weakened immune systems. Or at least they're more likely to be symptomatic.

</comment><comment><USER36> Serious question: is it possible that part of the increased mortality for (type 2) diabetics is a result of high blood sugars caused by this kind of effect?

</comment><comment><USER37> Mounting clues suggest the entire field of medicine has no clue whatsoever. You can't trust anything without waiting for 2-3 months to see if there's a retraction, and maybe not even then. I will start paying attention when they figure out, once and for all, whether eggs and butter are good or bad for me.

</comment><comment><USER38> This shit is scary. It's bad enough tjat it's contagious like flu and has a given mortality rate. But now some people are developing chronic conditions after it, like diabetes here. I also read about asthma or other lung conditions.

That shit is enough to make me stay at home forever. Then when I do go out I see people not being socially distant, no masks, etc. hope they don't get this shit...</comment>


Ask HN: Is part time product worth developing? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> yes, if it provides some value to anything?

<comment><AUTHOR> Like, I am creating application that exists in market but I can add more features in lower costs. Will it worth to implementing?

<comment><USER3> My advice:

1\. Get something minimal in front of potential users and find out. Iterate based on their feedback.

2\. More value for more money is better than more value for less money. It means the product has to be better.

Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank You for advice. Will keep focus on these.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ellen Pao says startups will fix Silicon Valley's diversity problem - <AUTHOR> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/02/ellen-pao-of-project-include-startups-can-fix-techs-diversity-problem/3623425002/ <comment><USER2> I know this is to battle discrimination, but aren't they also encouraging it?</comment>


Ask HN: Can anyone refer to growth studies of some tech insurance giants? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Might be good to get some more information on what exactly you are looking for.

In the meantime look up videos on Youtube from [https://www.lemonade.com](https://www.lemonade.com) as they are doing extremely well in terms of user acquisition, and [https://www.coveinsurance.co.nz](https://www.coveinsurance.co.nz) from New Zealand. There are a number of interviews you can find.

</comment><comment><USER3> Could you clarify your question with examples or themes of interest?</comment>


Oliver Cromwell, the man who wouldn't be king - <AUTHOR> https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/01/man-who-wouldn-t-be-king <comment><USER2> As someone growing up in the US where we think along the lines of the American Revolution, Cromwell Co. come across as very confusing.

They go so far as to execute the king (that isn't something that seemed likely had by some strange reason the American's captured the king (some good fan fiction there)) and yet as far as I can tell really don't seem to have much of a plan / do much to establish much at all after that, and sort of roll over at the end.

It always seems very muddy with all sorts of religious motivations (that admittedly I find hard to understand) from the outside.

Then again the tradition of 'Parliament' (speaking in a larger historical sense) seems to swing wildly as far as its loyalty to the king, or lack of it, power, or lack of power, and so forth.

<comment><USER3> Cromwell was one of the leaders of a Revolution. By the time of the American one you had the example of this one as well as the French Revolution, anything becomes easier to get right after a few iterations.

An alternative viewpoint to it being about religion is this [1].

[1] [https://www.marxists.org/archive/hill-christopher/english- re...](https://www.marxists.org/archive/hill-christopher/english-revolution/)

<comment><USER4> The French Revolution came after the American one didn't it?

<comment><USER3> Shows how important the American one seems in Europe, I suppose.

<comment><USER5> This is a revisionist post

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I highly recommend Mike Duncans 'revolutions' podcast for a thorough and entertaining history of Cromwell and the entire English revolution - as well as the American revolution, French (my current season) and about 6 others.

</comment><comment><USER7> If anyone besides me just sort of thinks of this as "a long long time ago", to put a timeframe I have a better grasp of on these events: Newton was 6 years old when Charles I was beheaded.

</comment><comment><USER8> [https://web.archive.org/web/20200122223823/https://www.newst...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200122223823/https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2020/01/man- who-wouldn-t-be-king)

</comment><comment><USER9> Monty Python's take on Oliver Cromwell taught me all I needed to know about it for quite a while, I admit: [https://youtu.be/dBPf6P332uM](https://youtu.be/dBPf6P332uM)</comment>


Lenses – Squinting harder never cured my ADHD - <AUTHOR> https://glyph.twistedmatrix.com/2020/08/lenses.html <comment><USER2> I don't think the author has ADHD at all and if they actually do it's minor. I'm glad they were able to come up with and use strategies to overcome their issues but actual ADHD doesn't respond to that in such a way at all.</comment>


Frenzy, a social network built on Dropbox - <AUTHOR> http://www.9to5mac.com/56134/quicklook-frenzy-dropbox-driven-social-network-for-your-mac-hint-its-great/

<comment><AUTHOR> I have been trying it out. It is basically a private twitter with file sharing.

The app's website: <http://frenzyapp.com/>

So far I really like it.</comment>


Evergreen: a React UI Framework built by Segment - <AUTHOR> https://evergreen.segment.com <comment><USER3> This list was posted a few weeks ago, but here is a fairly definitive list of similar UI frameworks:

[https://element.eleme.io/](https://element.eleme.io/)

[https://ant.design/](https://ant.design/)

[https://quasar-framework.org/](https://quasar-framework.org/)

[https://at-ui.github.io/at-ui/](https://at-ui.github.io/at-ui/)

[https://developer.microsoft.com/en- us/fabric](https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/fabric)

[https://vmware.github.io/clarity/](https://vmware.github.io/clarity/)

[http://appnexus.github.io/lucid/](http://appnexus.github.io/lucid/)

[https://ng-lightning.github.io/ng-lightning/](https://ng- lightning.github.io/ng-lightning/)

[https://blueprintjs.com/](https://blueprintjs.com/)

[http://www.jetbrains.org/ring-ui/](http://www.jetbrains.org/ring-ui/)

[https://www.lightningdesignsystem.com/](https://www.lightningdesignsystem.com/)

[https://elastic.github.io/eui/](https://elastic.github.io/eui/)

[https://atlaskit.atlassian.com/](https://atlaskit.atlassian.com/)

<comment><USER4> The question is: how many of these will be maintained several years later? Can you build a long term project on these?

Or the expectation is that one has to make a new UI anyway every several years to keep up with the changing fashion, so rewrites are inevitable?

<comment><USER5> Sure, if it works now, it'll work ten years down the line as long as they're not doing anything nonstandard.

There's a big fear that projects that become unmaintained suddenly stop working; this isn't correct.

Besides, all webapps are rebuilt in a 3-5 year cycle anyway so it really doesn't matter.

<comment><USER6> Do you feel like rewriting a bunch of webapps written in Perl/modapache around early 2000?

I know of at least one company with such a stack. Just like I know others with Web Forms, Stucts, SEAM, JSP, Zope and many other stacks in production.

Not everyone re-writes their webapps, specially in companies where software is a cost center and totally unrelated to their main business.

<comment><USER7> Sure, I'd be happy to. Converting apps from an old platform to a newer platform is reliable work, and I've done my share of it over my career. It often is structured as temporary projects, so I've had the opportunity to travel to short-term gigs in new cities while I build out platform conversion plans.

Sure, not everyone re-writes old apps. But enough companies do it to make it a decent professional specialty to cultivate. And it doesn't hurt knowing both the modern stacks and multiple generations of legacy stacks when working with large organizations. Sign me up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Issue #1: When I scroll down the list of components, click a link to view a component and then go back to the list, I'm positioned at the top of the page, not down where I scrolled to. This is an issue with many (most?) JavaScript- rendered pages that I visit, and it's the main reason why I hate content sites (not web apps) that use JavaScript-rendered HTML.

Issue #2: Many (most?) of the form components show no indication of being selected when using keyboard navigation. This is the main issue I have with most web UI toolkits. (For example, Semantic UI is a notorious offender, even though it's frequently recommended at HN, including multiple times in the comments on this page.)

Issue #3: There are multiple problems in Firefox, including two carets displayed in each Select component.

Issue #2 and #3 almost make me miss the notices that used to be displayed at the bottom of web pages, such as "Best viewed in Internet Explorer 4 at 800x600 resolution". A lot of pages nowadays should have a warning like "Best used in Chrome with a mouse or touchscreen".

<comment><USER9> Issue #4: Go to the Tables page, click a header on the example table, the entire page disappears.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I wish people would stop making UI frameworks in <some non-standard framework name>, and instead make it web components based with vanilla JS/very light lib dependency, so that everyone can enjoy the benefit. React is becoming a bubble of its own, and it's exclusive.

<comment><USER11> I agree very much. However there are two points that make it difficult : \- Virtual Dom. It simplifies a lot the creation of components. And components that are made for a VDOM are very different from those made without VDOM in mind. \- Data Binding. There are multiple ways to bind data to your components, once again this might influence the way components are made.

Those are not standard, some people like VDOM other not, and not everybody want to bind data the same way. So if we all contributed components in vanilla JS / Web Components, this still doesn't solve what should the API of those webcomponent look like.

<comment><USER12> This is confusing. The only difference between if this were a web component vs a React component is that the consumer would not capitalize the name. Instead of `<Button appearance="primary">` they would do `<evergreen-button appearance="primary">`. That's it.

<comment><USER13> Not at all true. Where's your onClick? People want their buttons to actually do things, right?

With Web Components you're back in the land of saving element references, querySelector, addEventListener, and string-only attributes. It sucks. If you want something more like what React provides, where attributes (props) can be objects, functions, other React elements, etc. then you need to use a library (e.g. Polymer) that's just as non-standard as React is.

<comment><USER12> Nope, you're wrong. onClick works with web components just the same way as it does with any other element. Proof: [https://codesandbox.io/s/j3jmkr98pw](https://codesandbox.io/s/j3jmkr98pw)

<comment><USER13> That uses React to attach onClick, so obviously yes. I'm saying without React. You said:

> The only difference between if this were a web component vs a React > component is that the consumer would not capitalize the name. Instead of > `<Button appearance="primary">` they would do `<evergreen-button > appearance="primary">`.

If you're not using React, you obviously can't do `onClick={...some function here...}` with Web Components, you have to use the shitty DOM APIs.

<comment><USER13> I guess I see what you're saying that web components can seem be _consumed_ as expected from a React app. I thought we were talking about not using React at all.

But I would expect this still would not work as expected with props like `children` or other props that accept React elements. It seems like the web component would be expecting Node instances, not React elements. Since components can decide whether or not to render their children, they wouldn't be backed by Nodes yet when the web component received them. So it seems like it'd have to know whether it's dealing with React and use ReactDOM.render directly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Why are these UI frameworks tied to React, rather than working for any HTML+CSS site (as with Bootstrap)? Do they provide interactive functionality that requires React or similar?

<comment><USER15> Probably because the people making them are using React, and first and foremost they're making it for themselves.

<comment><USER14> That was my guess, but the_duke's comment makes me think there is more to it. I'll have to look at the code to see if the React components do anything more than apply HTML templates with associated CSS styles.

<comment><USER15> Some of them require run-time JavaScript, like the popovers and select boxes. And largely the value here is in the comprehensive component API, rather than just the HTML/CSS it spits out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Evergreen looks quite nice, but their website isn't responsive and that gives me pause when considering it for my own projects. The components themselves may work fine, but I can't be sure without digging in further.

Just something to consider if you're looking at using Evergreen.

<comment><USER17> "Currently there is no opinionated way to construct responsive layouts in Evergreen. In the case of responsive layouts you might want to simply use a div with a class name and use breakpoints in CSS — or potentially a CSS-in-JS solution."

[https://evergreen.segment.com/components/layout- primitives](https://evergreen.segment.com/components/layout-primitives)

<comment><USER18> Responsive design isn't just adding breakpoints.

It's responding to the device and the ways the user will interact with it. For example, the combobox example in Evergreen doesn't actually use a <select> in the background, so users on mobile devices will actually have to use the dropdown implementation rather than the browser displaying a proper native mobile select. That's a _much_ worse experience. Not to mention Evergreen will be _completely_ inaccessible for users who need assistive technology, which potentially poses legal issues...

<comment><USER19> Did you try it on mobile? It actually does seem to use the native selector and not the custom one for me

<comment><USER18> I did, and it doesn't on my Android phone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> That's a minor thing but when I press the back button on one of the documentation pages it takes 6 seconds to go back (first it changes the title of the tab then it seems to wait for 6 seconds, probably parsing and running several MB of JavaScript). Sometimes the tab titles is blinking and displaying "Evergreen" and "Components - Evergreen" very quickly during these 6 seconds.

You'd think in 2018 going back to a page would be a solved problem, but apparently each new framework needs to re-solve this in a new orignal way.

<comment><USER21> This doesn't happen for me, it is pretty quick. I am in India and on a 40 Mbps connection.

<comment><USER20> My connection is fast enough too. I'm on Firefox though, so maybe that's the "issue", if their framework is designed to work mostly on Chrome and not the other browsers.

<comment><USER21> Yes, I am looking at it in Chrome on Ubuntu.

Just tried it in Firefox 62 on Ubuntu. Works good there too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've wondered about React, although I haven't used it myself. I know that the new Reddit was written using React components, and it's very slow. Is that a React problem (i.e. is it hard to write fast web apps) or is it a Reddit problem (or both)?

<comment><USER23> React is fast. If you are not experienced in react you'll make a mess because they work against its principles.

To me the Reddit web app is fast, the show part I think is the server side.

<comment><USER22> There may be some fast components in the Reddit web app, but I think there must be a valid reason why so many users are switching to the old Reddit (not just because of the way it looks, but due to performance complaints). I just went in and even scrolling through Reddit comments is laggy. Switching to old mode is like day and night.

<comment><USER24> they're sticking with the old reddit because the information density is much higher. it's a design problem.

<comment><USER25> Not only that, for me in Safari the new reddit barely works and is not loading things very fast or sometimes at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> always hilarious to see the dumb dependencies that these projects have

[https://github.com/sindresorhus/arrify](https://github.com/sindresorhus/arrify)

[https://github.com/JedWatson/classnames](https://github.com/JedWatson/classnames)

<comment><USER27> While I can understand your skepticism on the first one, the second package is actually very useful. It doesn't just concatenate strings filtering out falsy values, it supports the whole old AngularJS class format. You can, for example, pass an object {string:booleanish} and it will add only the keys whose values are truthy.

Pretty neat, actually.

<comment><USER28> > You can, for example, pass an object {string:booleanish} and it will add > only the keys whose values are truthy.

Why is this something you can't do on your own in a few lines of code?

      const classNames = (o, c=[]) => {
        for (let k in o) if (o[k]) c.push(k) // booleanish
        return c.join(" ")
      }

This is not cool at all! Why import a trivial function over NPM to do this for you? Better to _lower your dependency count_ and have a "util.js" file for helpers like this.

<comment><USER29> I get the "dependency hell" issue in Javascript world, but why would I rewrite this particular utility? It's well tested (both unit and field tested), includes edge cases and has zero dependencies. As a dependency, I will also get any future bug fixes or features if I wish to. An even better example is lodash. Would you really rewrite every util you need just for the sake of not having external dependencies?

<comment><USER30> Probably because the scope is so small that you _could_ actually rewrite it yourself. And then together with all these other toy libraries, stick it in one big one that covers everything you need in terms of convenience functions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Does anyone knows a react ui framework which also includes concepts for more high-level interfaces? Not only atoms and molecules, but also "organisms" and "pages" as a compound of several components?

I feel like, a lot of ppl still create horrible UIs based on good components, because they lack the bright overview.

<comment><USER32> This might be useful [https://github.com/ant-design/ant-design- pro](https://github.com/ant-design/ant-design-pro)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Great, but not a single clickable item works in Safari :'D

<comment><USER34> Are you on macOS? I can open the dialog via button example here ([https://evergreen.segment.com/components/dialog](https://evergreen.segment.com/components/dialog)) on macOS Safari 12.0.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> We made our own: [https://editor.construct.net/#open=kiwi- story](https://editor.construct.net/#open=kiwi-story)

Responsive (in terms of interaction with components) and lightweightedness were our top priorities when we started developing (~3 years ago) and no third party solutions seemed to fit the bill back then. Always a fear as well of reliance on third parties for such an important part of the product - is a very large technical risk for the entire business.

We're pleased with the results, our entire app is smaller than the Apple homepage (usable after ~1MB of network transfer) and often starts up faster than our C++ native Windows predecessor. Bloating third party solutions could add significant %'s onto the download size - the example HN React Clone is a comparible size to our product: [http://www.hnclone.win/](http://www.hnclone.win/)

There was a lot of resistance from users initially when we announced the future of our product would be in the browser and not the native desktop app they were currently using, but we do get emails from users saying after using it for a while they forget they are working in the browser which is amazing.

If we started developing today, I think we'd still roll our own.

<comment><USER36> Is it internal only?

<comment><USER35> Yes, no plans to do anything with it for now

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Seems like under the hood it uses blueprint for Icon, checked if they have a similar issue as blueprint with icons (no tree shaking) and yep:

[https://github.com/segmentio/evergreen/blob/master/src/icon/...](https://github.com/segmentio/evergreen/blob/master/src/icon/src/Icon.js)

</comment><comment><USER38> So far, I'm aware of Material-UI, Grommet, Bootstrap, and this for React. Are there others worth knowing about?

This looks good, though it also feels like it leans towards native controls; see Select vs. Select Menu, for instance. Material and Grommet have a unified style thing going on that this doesn't seem to. But this has more controls and seems more mature.

<comment><USER39> Depends if you want a UI _kit_, vs the right tools to make a great custom design system. For the latter, take a look at tailwindcss.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I think it's a beautiful, thought out, polished and well built set of UI components. If that's what I needed for my next project, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. The docs are excellent too. There's so much attention to detail here. There's an immense amount of love poured into this project, even the code snippets are interactive.

</comment><comment><USER41> This one is actually quite cool. I like it more than Ant. Given the number of GitHub stars, it looks like the framework has been around for quite a while. Never heard of it. One thing that I like about Ant.Design is that it's written with TypeScript. Wonder why Segment decided to go with JS, given that they position it for Enterprise apps.

<comment> ui-explorer12 Blueprint from Palantir is also a solid framework built on TypeScript. It's desktop-first which is quite different from most

<comment><USER34> Would you not consider Evergreen desktop-first, too? It doesn't really provide any constructs out-of-the-box for responsiveness AFAICT.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Nice library, organization and write-ups. They don't seem to talk about responsive though. Since size, typography and spacing are all passed as exact values, how do they imagine providing different values for different devices or windows? Conditionals in JS?

</comment><comment><USER43> In a fresh create-react-app project, their getting started example that includes only a button results in a minified js of 570K. Apparently the whole of Blueprint.js is included as a dependency. Shouldn't tree shaking take care of this seamlessly?

<comment><USER44> Tree shaking isn't automatically supported for CSS. You can use third party tools like PurifyCSS though.

<comment><USER43> It's the js bundle that is large.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> When I saw this the other day, one of the first things I tried was Ctrl-N/P to navigate its auto-complete lists, but it didn't work, so I sent a pull request with the underlying library Downshift ([https://github.com/paypal/downshift/pull/596](https://github.com/paypal/downshift/pull/596)). I think adding little touches like this helps to show that a library author pays attention to detail. I know that it's only programmers who would use that keyboard shortcut, but that still probably numbers in the tens of thousands of potential users.

</comment><comment><USER46> I don't think I would support this in an engineering organization. There are so many people focused on solving these problems, that I believe not being able to make an existing solution work well is for lack of trying. I'm a bit out of the loop on React, however if I had to guess Segment would be better off investing in adapting an existing framework, no matter how nice this one might be.

</comment><comment><USER47> Looks like they improved a ton with the v4.0 release. I used this just a few months ago and it was painful. Undocumented components, lack of basic customization, some bugs. Seems like that stuff has been addressed. I remember Evergreen adding about 60kB to my bundle size though (mostly due to its icons). I hope that's been reduced.

</comment><comment><USER48> Great, another UI framework that will not work with Vue, Marko, Angular, LitElement or basicly anything else than react. When will the trend stop :/

Can't we embrace web components already and have those UI frameworks work in all popular solutions out there? Every time something new comes out existing solutions are being rewritten from scratch.

<comment><USER49> I suppose since it's open source, then there is nothing stopping anyone from porting it to Vue?

<comment><USER48> That was my point, we should not need to rewrite this over and over.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I use Material UI, but I'm definitely stealing your color palette - <USER2> defaults.

</comment><comment><USER51> Ant.Design is one of the most popular design systems, by counting the number of react themes on Themeforest. It is fairly complete and comes with a lot of design elements for data-intensive usecases (like grids, tables, etc)

</comment><comment><USER52> I genuinely wish these frameworks wrote a why. There's say bootstrap. Etc.

Why specifically this one?

I take it the main thing is their methodology for applying styles rather than css classes which might or might not make the code more readable.

</comment><comment><USER53> Popover menus and drop-downs should disappear when the user scrolls the page.

Also, custom select inputs always ignore a big percentage of the functionality that native select inputs deliver.

</comment><comment><USER54> I've been following the repo for quite some time and playing around with it locally. Very very well made UI Framework/Component Library.

Props to @jeroenransijn, @rowno and others!

</comment><comment><USER55> This is really cool! I've been firmly locked on the backend for the past 5 years. I think this library will finally bring me back to the browser.

</comment><comment><USER56> The website is not responsive . Why ?

<comment><USER57> Segment isn't designed to be used on mobile.

<comment><USER58> Nowadays that is kinda laughable and almost disqualifies project

<comment><USER57> No, it's called being pragmatic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Where can I see one page with all the components?

</comment><comment><USER60> yet another ambitious web framework...

</comment><comment><USER61> Here's another framework, that raps around a library, that wraps around another framework, that wraps around another library.... please... stop making me learn new things to keep myself relevant in the vertigo-inducing swirling vortex that is Javascript.

</comment><comment><USER62> What I don't get: Why is it just for React?

<comment><USER63> Same question here. Is this the honest reality nowadays, that only one frontend library/framework became "the standard"? It looks to me, that React is "the winner" and most of us should focus on this, because others just come and goes... Is that true?

<comment><USER48> People were saying that about jquery too. Vue is gaining a lot of traction too. This year it is STILL react being the one with biggest userbase, but that might not be true in a year or two. This discussion pops out every once in a while, IMO there is no "we should focus just on this" in IT world, landscape is ever changing.</comment></comment></comment>