Outsourcing graphic design at 99designs.com - <AUTHOR> http://successfulsoftware.net/2009/02/16/outsourcing-artwork-through-99designscom/

<comment><USER2> Watch out, or the graphic design police will write you up for soliciting "Spec Work" --- <http://no-spec.com>.

<comment><USER3> " At the end of the day, there is a certain irony in spec work. A prospect requesting it is ultimately saying, 'My project isn't important enough to hire a professional who will take the time to understand my situation and goals and invest the time needed to create a suitable solution.' "

Is there something wrong with is? If I want to create a webapp and have no clue about graphic design, I would be happy with something that looks ok. I'm not looking for somebody to understand my situation, I just want something better then a border="1" table with default buttons.

<comment><USER2> Of course there's nothing wrong with it. I want my offices to look nice, too, but I don't need a weeklong branding consultation to figure out what kind of potted plants best complement my company's persona.

I think this is a classic business model problem with consultative services: 60-80% of the work is, in fact, cookie-cutter stuff that can be executed by any barely-competant practioner, and the remaining 20-40% doesn't easily command the premium required to staff an expert firm. So firms pretend that the low-margin 60% doesn't exist.

I don't get why graphic design, alone among all professional service practices, should be exempt from project risk. Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship; I've tried to do the same thing with my clients, prospects, and peers.

<comment><USER4> _"Some high-end lawyers we've worked with have practically fallen over themselves to offer advice in anticipation of a professional relationship."_

Offering advice is completely different than them drawing up a few sample usable contracts for you to use without restriction, all as a taste of more possible work to come.

Why is it that some programmers think design is so easy? Designers that think programming is easy bug the shit out of me so the reverse is no less arrogant. The percentage breakdown is taken completely out of thin air or maybe only applies to mid-level designers with cookie cutter work.

Having said all that, I'm a designer that's actually not against crowdsourcing designs (I like crowdspring more than 99designs) because it's not the same as spec work. Rather than a one-on-one type of relationship without any transparency, basically a closed door job audition, the crowdsourcing sites allow designers to compete openly and showcase their talent, even if their work isn't selected. They can also reuse work that isn't selected for future projects, for design layouts at least (not so much for logos), and eat the whole buffalo as it were.

<comment><USER2> It's funny, because WSGR (probably the most famous of the Bay Area law firms) did exactly that with YC, drafting a series of term sheet contracts for free.

I don't think design work is easy, and I'm not saying I advocate spec work as a sound business choice, but I don't see the ethical problem. Design firms sound a lot like realtors when they talk about boycotting things like 99designs.

And again, it is also the case that for 80% of the market, "competant" is the hurdle, not "groundbreaking" or even "distinctive". People who need "competant" design are ill-served by projects padded with weeklong branding sessions, or even multiple rough comps to choose from.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For one consulting project I outsourced logo design to 99designs.com with a $300 "contest" and was absolutely blown away by the quantity and quality of submissions. I got probably a dozen out of 80+ submissions that would've been perfectly suitable.

<comment><USER6> I agree - I got great value for a $350 logo contest.

The two designers whose logos I liked the best participate in many contests at once and win about 10% of the ones they enter. They must look at the prize money and divide by 10 for their expected payout and then know how much time to put into each contest.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> With the price of custom graphical work these days, either from 99designs.com or from your favorite graphical talent in the 3rd world (if you find one you like and works well with you, hang onto them -- solid gold), you can justify quality original graphics for projects that would never have merited it before.

My little brother is trying to break into comics without drawing ability -- so he's outsourcing it, for prices that are a) cheap enough for an American college student to afford and b) impressive for an Indian college student to command.

Here's a page:

[http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b....](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3112/3151984260_6416872194_b.jpg)

Take a guess at how much that page cost.

You guessed too high. No, really, you did.

<comment><USER8> How much?

<comment><USER7> I think it was $15.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've written very negatively about spec work in the past, and because of this I get approached at conferences to discuss this issue.

I've now met 5 people doing work for 99designs and other spec work sites with an intent of coming back later in a legal form. It is all about intent, and you are asking a designer to do custom work for you with the intent not to pay.

I've said it is inherently evil, and somethings like this are going to happen.

I like the saying "there is no such thing as a great designer, only a great client." You drive the design, and if you resort to sites like these, you open yourself up to a slew of legal issues, and wave the flag that you are not willing to work on one of the most important public parts of you company.

<comment><USER10> I guess it depends on which stage of your website development you are in. When I'm bootstrapping it and I'm not even sure whether the idea will be a success, I'm not willing to invest in anything more than _good enough_. When I have some empirical evidence that the idea will fly (e.g. a/b tests, first sale closed), only _then_ will I get in touch with a great designer to do custom work. As a plus, I will probably have discovered what I really want from the designer by that time and will be able to _drive_ the design in a better way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Is Andy Brice on HN? I just sent a link to Perfect Table Plan to my brother who is planning his wedding currently, and thinks it's awesome.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, and I am not above plugging my own articles. ;0)

Glad your brother likes PerfectTablePlan.</comment></comment>


Bitcoin ad banned for having a log scale - <AUTHOR> https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/hdr-global-trading-ltd.html <comment><USER2> > We understood that such scales were a valid and useful way of presenting > data; particularly when there was a need to show very large changes or rates > of change over long time periods. However we considered that at least some > specialist knowledge of that type of scale would be needed to interpret the > graph and that, in the absence of clear explanatory information, the graph > was unlikely to be familiar or readily understandable to the national > newspaper audience to whom the ad was directed.</comment>


Ask HN: When did you decided to start freelance/consulting or start SaaS and why - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> SaaS is harder to startup but I enjoy building a business where the we can have revenue without having to find clients / perform labor. SaaS is hard but rewarding when you hit X recurring revenue. I can travel the world and just have to deal with support and sales.

<comment><AUTHOR> I see sounds like a sustainable thing to do but getting customers for your product is hard

<comment><USER2> I agree but nothing in life is easy. Business is no different :)

<comment><AUTHOR> True I totally agree with you</comment></comment></comment></comment>


25 Things That Won't Exist in 25 Years - <AUTHOR> https://hackernoon.com/25-things-that-wont-exist-in-25-years-1d475cd9590a <comment><USER2> >>Handheld smartphones transition to spatial computing / augmented reality head mounted displays

Apple needs to upgrades eyeglasses like they did the watch.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I believe secretaries are largely gone already. So...

I would add we'll see "peak travel" will occur within 25 years. Virtual reality will be so good and cheap that only the wealthy will be able to move their bodies from place to place.

2 car families will become 1 car families as autonomous on-demand local travel and work from home will eliminate the need for a second, or even a first car.</comment>


Introducing Nolone: Invite Anyone to do Anyting - <AUTHOR> https://www.nolone.net <comment><AUTHOR> It's not only about dating. You can literally invite anyone to do anyting :))</comment>


Ask HN: When should i resign while I'm on a H1B Visa? - <AUTHOR>

So I have accepted a startup job offer yesterday and they just got my documents to work on H1B Transfer. But they have told that once i get the H1B receipt notice from USCIS instead of waiting till the approval date. And, I'm planning to give notice to my current employer when i get H1B receipt notice itself.
Should i give my employer the notice when i get the H1B application confirmation receipt or should i wait till i get my H1B transfer approved?
Have you done the H1B transfer? How long it took for you and what problems you have faced?
Have anyone got denied in H1B transfer ever?
P.S: I work in one of the big corps in bay area and i'm moving to a startup of more than 200-250 employees. Looking for help. Thanks! <comment><USER2> Be safe and wait till the transfer is approved. It took me 2-3 weeks.

<comment><AUTHOR> First of all thanks for the reply.

There are two steps here right? One is to file LCA on behalf of new employer and get H1B receipt notice and other is getting the H1B approved. Did you wait till the second stage?

How long it took for your first step and the second step?</comment></comment>


Boeing: We Are Going to Beat SpaceX to Mars. Elon Musk: "Do It." - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/12/boeing-we-are-going-to-beat-spacex-to-mars/?comments=1&post=34452417 <comment><USER2> Having missed the original "space race" by several decades, I have to say I'm incredibly excited that I have a decent chance at seeing the first people on Mars during my lifetime. What a time to be alive.</comment>


Ask HN: Do you recommend building Backend for a Bank in GO? - <AUTHOR> I am currently in talks with an 80-year-old bank, trying to convince them to let us build their upcoming API in GO, rather than JAVA. We currently have more experience building the system in GO, and with a tight deadline in mind, I would rather invest time building the technology, rather than learning and planning it out in JAVA. I would like to reassess the decision. If you feel JAVA is still the right fit for building the banking infrastructure, I would like to know your point of view aswell. <comment><USER2> Using JAVA potentially gets you into intellectual property problems since Oracle claims that APIs (and, particularly JAVA APIs) are copyright and has been asserting ownership. It is a risk that is hard to quantify especially since it is up for a decision by the SCOTUS.

Personally, I think Go is clean, tight, and elegant whereas Java always seems a bit clunky and verbose.

For 100,000 feet, it seems to me that the particular programming language used to construct a banking system should not be a primary design choice issue. What is important are the features and use cases the banking system is to support, what the operating environment is to be, what the security environment is to be, how the system is going to be kept non-fragile, what APIs are going to be exposed to users, what scaling is going to be expected, what performance is required, and so forth.

</comment><comment><USER3> Why do you think the project should be in Go rather than Java? Do they have existing development staff experienced with Go, relative to their Java experience? Are they having trouble working with 3rd parties due to using Java? Would Java not support their business outcomes?

</comment><comment><USER4> It is faster to develop and manage the code in go . But i agree customer are more comfortable with java.Both of them have their pros and cons . It's all depend on the requirements which one is better.

<comment><USER5> Those are valid factors, but with businesses like banking and health, I wouldn't want to be an outlier with the programming language.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Honest question: Why do you think they should switch to Go? If Java is what they're comfortable with and it's still used widely in the industry, is the trade-off worth it?</comment>


Epidemiological Modeling Of Online Social Network Dynamics - <AUTHOR> http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.4208

<comment><AUTHOR> Although not peer review, so take the conclusions with a grain of salt and all that, the premise seems to be that approx. 80% of the users will be abandoning facebook in a few years.</comment>


American date format leads to arrest in Spain - <AUTHOR> https://english.elpais.com/spanish_news/2020-09-08/the-spanish-family-wrongly-accused-of-child-pornography-due-to-a-mistake-reading-a-date.html <comment><USER2> We could all save a lot of time and trouble if we'd just normalize all cultures to a YYYY-MM-DD format. Sorts better as well as just being less ambiguous due to unfamiliarity meaning no assumptions will be applied by anybody. I only date things this way, at least digitally, but I should probably start doing it in writing as well.

Also this format prioritizes what is more important to you if you are an amnesiac or someone stuck time traveling at random.

</comment><comment><USER3> Actual headline: "The Spanish family wrongly accused of child pornography due to a mistake reading a date"

"An alert from a US organization followed American month-day-year usage, but this was misread by investigators in Spain. As a result, four people went through a nightmare situation"

<comment><USER4> The amount of mistakes that must have been due to the American date format would probably be a good research topic. I know I've myself done countless mistakes due to it.

As much as I can, I use the yyyy-mm-dd format which is always unambiguous.

<comment><USER5> I also adopted the yyyy-mm-dd format, some time in the 90's. I later moved from Australia (dd-mm-yyyy) to the US (mm-dd-yyyy) and continued to use yyyy- mm-dd during my time there.

I believe yyyy-mm-dd is the usual format in Japan, but I'm amazed that it hasn't seen more popular adoption worldwide, given the difficulties it solves.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I also agree that adopting yyyy-mm-dd just reduces ambiguity.

However, it is an interesting linguistic observation that the way people say dates influences how they prefer to write them. And I know it's basically a religious argument, but I prefer the American way.

Saying "we'll schedule that for October 10th", or "let's meet on September 18th" you get an idea from the first words when roughly it's going to be (Oct, Sep), and then the specific.

The only time we seem to use the day number first is when we celebrate "the 4th of July".

The European way -- or at least British way -- they say "we'll schedule that for the 10th of October". If you had to cut that sentence off before you completed it, you would be left asking... which month in general are we talking about?

Anyway, the way people are used to saying the words definitely seems to translate into how they express it in writing.

<comment><USER7> Having a date format that's different from the rest of the whole world to optmise for the case of being cutoff when speaking doesn't sound super reasonable.

<comment><USER6> Well, I don't _really_ mean it's for the protection of the case that your sentence gets cut off -- when is that going to happen in practice. I meant in terms of word order when thinking about the concept of date from general to specific, (I at least) think it's more logical. And in yyyy-mm-dd, it comes first.

But, yes it is only a convention. We do lots of other things in society without similar rationale.

<comment><USER8> It's like how calculators and telephone keypads are opposite. Each one feels natural in its own domain, but weird if used for the other purpose (i.e. Try dialing a phone number you're used to dialing all the time, but on a calculator. You can do it, but it don't feel right)

With identifiers, we sometimes go from specific>general. Street addresses start with the house number first, then street, then city, state, etc.

Domain names are the same. Most specific first, general TLD last.

But then there are directory paths, (drive > folder > file), phone numbers (country > area > exchange > subscriber), and legal citations (code/title > chapter > section > paragraph > etc.)

Which makes the American date format truly an outlier. 2020-09-13 seems right to me, but I think I prefer 13 SEP 2020. It's more aesthetic I think, and it also recognizes that there is no month called "9". Days and years are naturally numbered, but months have names.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Soon will be the global day celebrating standards. ISO-standardised to Oct, 14th.

Except for the US, ANSI set it to Oct, 22nd.

[https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a1a4e701](https://blog.fefe.de/?ts=a1a4e701)

</comment><comment><USER9> Once there was a nice cartoon at iso.ch: [http://web.archive.org/web/20030305043709/http://www.iso.ch/...](http://web.archive.org/web/20030305043709/http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods- services/popstds/datesandtime.html)

</comment><comment><USER10> For computer stuff YYYY-MM-DD makes the most sense usually, but for human stuff I prefer DD-MMM-YYYY. That gives you the day first, then the three letter month abbreviation, then the year. It's still easy enough to understand for people while not being overly technical.

<comment><USER9> for human reception I always add the day of week.

A very strong hint for personal planning (Thu? Never have time on Thus).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> There's an idea. MM/DD/YYYY (or worse, YY) should be an indictable offence.

</comment><comment><USER12> The result of this is a series of mistakes and continued negligence, not simply a date format error.

</comment><comment><USER13> The ideal birthday is > 12</comment>


RCS 2 / Advanced Messaging – implementation research - <AUTHOR> http://xameeramir.github.io/RCS-advanced-messaging-implementation-research/#.WOZG6ObqQ98.hackernews <comment><USER2> Hilariously, I had one of my friends on AT&T enable "advanced messaging" so we could exchange videos of quality greater than 640x480p. It didn't work. Turns out AT&T limits this to other AT&T customers only [^1].

Why can't we have nice things again?

[^1]: [https://www.att.com/shop/wireless/features/advanced- messagin...](https://www.att.com/shop/wireless/features/advanced- messaging.html) (read the fine print)

</comment><comment><USER3> The telco companies cannot be more pathetic. AT&T still charges and still counts one RCS message as one MMS/SMS, on top of the standard data rate. Why is something like this, which relies completely on data, is still a technically limited resource? I guess if they could count emails, they would count emails sent and received too. The whole reason why we have this clusterfuck of competing yet non-standard and non-interop messaging solutions is because of their greed.

<comment><AUTHOR> So, do you estimate that RCS 2 / Advanced messaging will surpass OTT apps or will it become another failure just like SMSes?</comment></comment>


Home is where the cartel is: On the politics and economics of land-use controls - <AUTHOR> http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/6287.html <comment> vezzy-fnord This is a reasonable article about how people are inclined to use the political method to secure their interests at the expense of others, and how as such more naive deregulatory policies without institutional changes will quickly reswitch back into a different pathological state as other rent- seeking opportunities are discovered.

I'm not entirely convinced by the paragraph on rent control. The author is resting on the assumption that new housing construction _post facto_ overcomes regulatory hurdles, but it seems to me a broader picture of regime uncertainty and adaptive expectations might still skew the allocation of resources, and this discount be reflected in the rent being "too damn high". Actually, he mentions the market-clearing quantity, but seems to gloss over that a modern mixed economy has many forces countervailing from markets ever clearing.

The dichotomy of housing as capital/investment good v. housing as consumer good is interesting, but again, I'm unconvinced of how one function _excludes_ the other, unless there is something countervailing the process of speculation.

I'm sensing a Georgist vibe from this whole thing, but the author stops short of advocating a land value tax. There's some issues with qualifying what an "unimproved" value of land would be, and also on the valid uses of a resource being idle. I'm unfamiliar with the housing trends in countries that implement LVTs, but they're worth researching.

<comment><USER2> Rent control is more complicated.

Rent control on existing units makes less of them available on the market. That drives demand for new units (that are not under rent control). That's the opposite of the straw man position the author argues against.

The real problem with rent control is that on the supply side it removes incentives for upgrading or even just maintaining existing property; and on the demand side it discourages an efficient allocation of scarce resources.

<comment><USER3> Keep in mind that what you describe does _not_ describe the effect San Francisco's Rent Stabilization ordinances have on the SF housing market. I've written about this at length, many times, but the summary of the most salient points:

* RS only applies to buildings built _before_ ~1979.

* RS does not apply to buildings built _after_ that date.

* RS only controls rent while one or more of the original tenants on the rent-rate-establishing lease occupy a controlled unit. Once zero of those tenants occupy that unit, rent can be set to _any_ value.

* RS permits all _sorts_ of passthroughs direct to the tenants in the building... city bonds, water bonds, capital improvements, maintenance cost increases, _increases in the cost to service the landlord 's debt_...

The SF rent board's site has more details. [0] So does my comment history.

[0] [http://sfrb.org/](http://sfrb.org/)

<comment><USER2> Interesting. Thanks!

> * RS permits all sorts of passthroughs direct to the tenants in the > building... city bonds, water bonds, capital improvements, maintenance cost > increases, increases in the cost to service the landlord's debt...

Sounds like a good lawyer / accountant should make rent control toothless for the landlord?

<comment><USER3> > Sounds like a good lawyer / accountant should make rent control toothless > for the landlord?

Potentially, kinda, yeah. There are some limits (depending on how many buildings the landlord controls) on how much of an increase can be imposed how frequently [0], but if you're _sufficiently_ nasty and clever, you _could_ squeeze substantially more out of your tenants than a naive understanding of the RS ordinances would lead one to expect.

[0] Though, for things like municipal bonds, legally mandated retrofitting, and water cost increases, there are -IIRC- no limits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> One response to this piece (not by me, to be clear): [http://marketurbanism.com/2015/12/26/a-response-to- interflui...](http://marketurbanism.com/2015/12/26/a-response-to- interfluidity/)

</comment><comment><USER2> Despite some parts I disagree with: big kudos to the author for looking outside the US to see how other countries are dealing with these problems.

(I happen to have lived in both Germany and Singapore, and a few other places.)

</comment><comment><USER5> Really hard problem to solve.

Maybe with technology advances such as telepresence robots location will matter less, so cities will have to start competing against each other?

On the other hand, the whole software industry which can be perform from any office with the internet is so heavily condensed in San Francisco...

<comment><USER6> The problem can be tackled by making efforts to tailor new developments to the environment they are being placed in.

[http://youtu.be/Hy4QjmKzF1c](http://youtu.be/Hy4QjmKzF1c)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> On the political economy side, it's unlikely that we will displace things like the mortgage interest deduction. What if we were to introduce a renters' deduction instead?

<comment><USER2> They have something interesting in Switzerland, called Eigenmietwert ([https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenmietwert](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenmietwert)). Alas, no English Wikipedia article.

The idea is like that: on the one hand renters pay rent with post-tax money. But owners pay mortgages with pre-tax money. To equalize the two situations, owners-occupiers get taxed on the virtual income they are at once producing and consuming---ie they are taxed as if they were renting to themselves.</comment></comment>


The 40% Keyboard - <AUTHOR> http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/09/18/the-40-keyboard/ <comment><USER2> Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything.

I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards.

Fast forward a few years and I was made fun of at a programming job for preferring a full keyboard with a number pads. I guess programmers are too cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel.

Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled [1], and basically an otherwise standard rectangular keyboard which has no obvious ergonomic benefit over a full 100+ key keyboard.

[1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don't need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

<comment><USER3> No numpad is an ergonomic benefit. Your mouse is closer so you don't have to move your hand as far.

The best way to have a numpad if you really need one, I have found, is to have a separate one like how the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard does it.

<comment><USER4> _Your mouse is closer so you don 't have to move your hand as far._

Not if you use a mouse left-handed ;)

But more seriously, I grew up being trained to touch type in the classical way complete with ten-key exercises. I strongly prefer having a full numpad and I actually prefer the extra distance to the right for mouse usage. I've found over the years that the more I move my hands, the less likely I am to have discomfort.

<comment><USER5> God damn you cheating lefties! You cant have cake and eat it too! </joke>

I really wish for keyboard options with numpad on the left.

I am using numpad rarely but its handy to have when in need.

<comment><USER6> This exists.

I have used this keyboard for the past few years, and swear by it: [https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O)

Full num pad, but on the left.

For right-handed people like me, this makes the mouse position more natural, while still letting me use the num pad when needed.

<comment><USER7> Another option (the one I have at home) is Microsoft's current highest end gaming keyboard the Sidewinder X6 has a detachable numpad that you can move to either the left or right as you see fit (including on-the-fly; the connector is magnetically guided and swapping can be crazy quick).

[https://smile.amazon.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Gaming- Keyboar...](https://smile.amazon.com/Microsoft-Sidewinder-Gaming-Keyboard- Port/dp/B001DWI4FM)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys, so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example)

I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than squeezed together. I think that's more important than the "every key is within reach of the home row" argument for the 40% size in particular (although I've kind of fallen in love with the 40% size, but I could cope with going to a larger keyboard again better than I'd cope with going to a non-split, I think)

But more than that, as a programmer, there's something meditative about maintaining the custom hardware I use to do my job. Double-checking the soldering, tuning the firmware, taking it apart to polish the components and then putting it back together again, etc. Reminds me of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance, in a lot of ways.

<comment><USER9> I'd really like a keyboard with e-ink keycaps, so that they update as I flip between mappings. It'd be particularly useful when swapping between languages / character sets (e.g. Hebrew, Greek, ...)

<comment><USER10> the corne has a neat oled display, you can display layers and modifiers there

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I know a lot of people who think they can touch type the number row, but I've yet to meet anyone who can actually do it at anything resembling their normal typing speed and without errors. If people could there would be no reason for the numberpad to exist. I'm a very fast typist and I've always struggled with touch typing the number row.

Thirty minutes into using a split 40% keyboard and I was using the number row at full speed, something that has eluded me my whole life. And of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to hold down a key with my thumb and touch type the qwerty row than to make the normal awkward stretch that fullsize keyboards use.

That told me pretty much everything I needed to know. Once I learn a layout I can type any key that's on the home row or the rows that are directly above or below it and a thumb modifier faster than I can type any keys outside of the three home rows sans a modifier.

The idea that many people have that somehow 40% keyboards are about having less keys at your immediate disposal is completely backwards. There are 36 keys that are within a 1 key displacement of the home row. With the natural 36 and two thumb modifiers on each side that's already 180 keys that are all touch typeable, and that's without even getting into any of the fancy stuff like being able to tap for one function and hold for another, or using two modifiers at once, or using a vim style leader key, or chording, or having modes that you can switch into.

The smaller keyboards aren't about having less keys, it's not like I woke up one morning and decided to never use function keys or curly brackets again, it's about removing all the cruft that that can't be pressed easily and mapping it in a way that it can.

<comment><USER12> I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some point you reach a level which you consider sufficient and you stop improving. Unlearning bad habits is a huge effort.

I can touch-type the number row at full speed as I was drilled doing it. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't be able to either because you rarely need it.

The advantage of a numpad is that it reduced hand movement.

<comment><USER13> >I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some point you reach a level which you consider sufficient

That's because touch-typing on QWERTY by using the home row is stupid and counterproductive. The home keys are some of the least-used keys, and the whole layout was designed to be as un-ergonomic as possible.

If you want to touch type "correctly", you need to switch to a better keyboard layout like Dvorak or Workman.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts's law in this case) for their unscientific choices.

There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a 40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several months), just "fitts's law and we move less".

<comment><USER15> It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless (and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties). I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year)

Here's a study I could find with a quick search: [http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0...](http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes02.pdf)

Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard, but there's less discomfort.

<comment><USER14> I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that you _don't_ benefit from whatever keyboard you're using. I'm just saying that, if it's anecdotal ("works well for me"), say so — don't hide it behind a veneer of faux science.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Not sold on the RSI benefits. See, I bought a Planck, thinking that the ortholinear layout would make sense. But it didn't work really. Maybe I'm just accustomed to the staggered layout, but it just felt too cramped. Besides, I don't think that less movement automatically leads to less strain. In fact it felt like my fingers didn't get to stretch enough, and my wrists were too close for comfort. All in all, the mouse still seems to be the biggest issue for me, especially the micro movements, so I adjust the mouse to have more travel. But in the end the most comfortable experience is a laptop with a decent touchpad, no need to reach for the mouse and the wrists don't move much or at all.

<comment><USER12> Your observation of micro movements of the mouse causing issues is hitting the nail on the head. This movement comes from the wrist and should be avoided.

All pro gamers use a somewhat low sensitivity which forces the movement to come from the forearm instead of the wrist. Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist.

I'd recommend at least 20cm/360, better 25+. No accel.

<comment><USER17> >Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist.

Or you could just move the mouse with your fingers. Other positives include requiring much less space and not looking silly flailing around. (My preference is maybe 1–2 cm corner-to-corner, with no wrist related issues a couple decades in; and obviously, mouse acceleration is a great idea.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I have an ortholinear 40% that sits in my closet collecting dust. I used it for a little while, but just didn't like it that much. Despite the claims of it being more ergonomic, I found that I was contorting my pinky into some strange positions to hit some of the keys, and was getting some strain. Plus, with 40 keys, you probably need 2 additional layers to get in all of the functionality.

I also have an ErgoDox (68-key split ortholinear). I used it for a while but I just never liked ortholinear.

I have used a 60% keyboard for most of the past 4 years that seems to me about as functional as a full-sized keyboard. Basically all that I lose are the arrow and function keys (and ESC), all of which can be easily emulated with a second layer (I don't even think about it any more). I mapped caps lock to ESC.

I know that some people need a numpad, but I don't, and I like the form factor of a 60% (plus I built it up with switches and keycaps from an old Apple Extended Keyboard, which were much better than the modern Apple stuff).

<comment><USER19> This is why 65% keyboards are becoming popular. You get the compactness of a 60% with the functionality of a TKL. HHKB format is also nice if you can get used to it.

<comment><USER20> Any examples of a 65% keyboard? I've never heard this terminology thrown around till now.

<comment><USER18> Yeah. The Whitefox or Drop's Alt Keyboard or the Tada68 or the Magicforce 68.

You can find most of them on Amazon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Getting a (read: multiple) 60% keyboard really changed my life. It makes a lot more sense for not offsetting the mouse way to the right or the keyboard to the left (as you would with a full size). As well, not having to strain my wrist to hit arrow keys got rid of any pain I had. It's awesome having everything under my hands. I'll definitely follow this 40% project.

<comment><USER22> This. Ater having a "centered" keyboard without all those numerical keys, I began to wonder how keyboards still have the same layout even if not everybody uses those nubers on a daily basis.

<comment><USER23> Repeat this to all laptop manufacturers. I'd rather have better grill speakers and a centered layout than a number pad and speakers under the keyboard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I really can't see how having to hold down two keys at the same time is going to help RSI. (because to get to the special keys you have to hold down a modifier key)

When you have your fingers contorted _and_ under stress trying to hold two keys down, thats when RSI really kicks in.

I would go out on a limb and say that these keyboard are going to make one's RSI even worse.

<comment><USER25> The modifiers are placed under the thumbs, so no contortion is necessary. Try it yourself - with the possible exception of the B and Y keys, you can reach all the alpha keys perfectly comfortably with your thumb simultaneously pressing the space bar.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I use many different computers every day, and for the past 3 years, I have preferred 40% keyboards to get the job done.

Basically, the smaller the keyboard, the easier the layout is to remember. When it fits completely under your hands, with no extra columns or rows necessitating hand movement away from the home row, you can then commit the layout to your body's muscle memory faster. It then becomes more efficient and comfortable to use.

EDIT: On my current layout, I do something pretty unconventional, which is saying a lot considering I'm using Dvorak. So I've mapped the B key on my Mods layer to Backspace, D to Delete, T to Tab, and E for Enter (just to name a handful). Now, I prefer this to having mods requiring a long pinky reach to either side. It's also liberating using a layer for an extra level of intention before hitting stuff like Delete, Backspace, and Enter. If you're reading this, there's a good chance you've accidentally hit Enter one on a message or button when you didn't mean to. Especially if you've dabbled with HHKB layout. With this type of arrangement, worrying about that is a thing of the past.

</comment><comment><USER27> If you want even better ergonomics, add tenting, concavity, and move the modifier keys + return/backspace to the thumb cluster (which should be shaped and angled so you're not moving your thumb laterally to hit it). The Dactyl- Manuform[1] is a good example of these things.

[1] [https://github.com/tshort/dactyl- keyboard](https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard)

</comment><comment><USER28> Not for me, thanks.

I have a ... I don't know, it's like a 60% but with added arrows and ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn off to the right like on a 80%, but it's not a 80% or a standard 75% because there's no F key row.

I wouldn't want to go any smaller, I already have an extra 'super' key to access F functions, and I already have minor issues just with the physical size. Maybe I have big hands? Either way, I like the desk space back, but I think there are limits here.

</comment><comment><USER29> 2 years ago I bought this vertex core 40% keyboard: [https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...](https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3550)

Unfortunately, I type in dvorak layout and the keyboard I purchased did not work out. I have to press 3 keys to type the letter 'z' because of the strange meta layers.

I switched to dvorak because I had minor wrist pains and I hoped that switching to dvorak would help. The pain went away (maybe a coincidence), but dvorak was a pleasure to type so I stuck with it.

Everytime there is a new keyboard, I try it out and become disappointed because it is heavily optimized for qwerty layouts.

<comment><USER30> One of the main draws for me to build a somewhat custom keyboard is that you can program it yourself. That way you can modify the layout so it suits dvorak layouts.

<comment><USER31> There is a drop-in PCB for the Vortex Core called the Atom47[0] that supports QMK[1]:

[0] [https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/ma...](https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/maartenwut/atom47) [1] [https://qmk.fm/](https://qmk.fm/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Personally, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 2 for most of my typing work. It's more pricy than many other keyboards but I've always found dev work pretty easy with it.

<comment><USER33> Second that, its also wider than these tiny small keyboards, which is a plus comfort-wise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I love my Keebio Iris; I've built three at this point, for my two work machines and my home office. 60%, split, columnar, programmable with QMK. Since they're completely split, with only a cable between them, I can place them in whatever angle is perfectly comfortable for me, and I have room for my track ball between them for super easy access [0]

The main power in these custom boards is in the firmware, allowing you limitless customization. If you're the sort of person to place Escape or Control on your CapsLock button via OS tools, this takes that to another level. I never have to take my hands out of home position.

Some of my layout details [1]:

* When spacebar is held down, it activates a navigation layer instead of typing space. In this layer, I have HJKL arrow keys, along with page up/down, home/end, my numrow becomes function keys, and Tab/CapsLock cycle through browser tabs.

* The CapsLock button is Escape when tapped, Control when held down.

* The damn. key [0] is Control-Alt-Delete when tapped once, Control-Shift-Escape when tapped twice.

* The fn key, when held, turns the right half of the board into a traditional numpad descending from the 789 keys in the numrow.

* The raise key, when held, gives access to any special characters not already in the main layout (-_{}[]+=|\\)

I also have a separate BDN9 macropad [0] with rotary encoders for volume/zoom, and keys mapped to the debugging navigation keys for software debugging. Also has a screenshot macro (print screen, win+R, type "mspaint", enter, wait 750ms, control+P). It has a key that will open notepad on a single-tap (win+R, type "notepad", enter) or type out a long email header I use frequently when double-tapped.

There is certainly an aesthetic component (I love the look and feel of my boards and my keycaps), and the build was a big draw (soldering everything together, programming the layout), but the benefit of having a totally custom setup for my specific needs is fantastic.

[0] My primary work setup: [https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3](https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3)

[1] My QMK layout file: [https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboa...](https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/iris/keymaps/sam/keymap.c)

</comment><comment><USER35> I'm a big fan of 75% keyboards. The layout retains nearly everything from a full-size keyboard except the number pad (i.e. there are F-keys, numbers, arrows, Escape, Home/PgUp/PgDown, etc.), but compresses it all into a single rectangular block.

For me, it's the perfect balance of compactness and usability. Fits snugly in my backpack but allows me to use my preferred set of keybinds since all the relevant keys are there.

Here's a site with a rundown of most of the popular sizes: [https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full- size-...](https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size- tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/)

<comment> 52-6F-62 Hahaha—that binary keyboard.

For me, I'm a happy full-size user—at home and at work.

Work: The discontinued Apple Magic wired (like: [https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/ma...](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/matias- apple-mac-keyboard-wired-backlight-rgb-ces-2018))

Home: Logitech K840 [https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical- corde...](https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corded- keyboard)

I find both fantastic. Having learned to use the numpad by navigating speedily through old hierarchical menus on a DOS-based POS system, I don't think I can let them go.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This thing on the bottom - [https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR](https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR) . People fiddle with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists aren't straight you will injure them over time, that's a fact. And I see almost none KBs which allow changing KB level in a good way (in a bad way almost all of them - with stupid stands in back of KB).

<comment><USER10> Anything to back up these "facts"? There are many, many activities that require your wrist to be not straight. Playing musical instruments, sports...

<comment><USER37> Do you do any of them for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year?

Used to row about 20 hours a week for a few years. It does the same thing if you're not careful.

<comment><USER10> Some people certainly do, and I didn't question that.

I question the "fact" that straight wrists matter over all other things.

<comment><USER36> What "other" things? Carpal syndrome is an official illness with clearly defined causes - squeezing and damaging nerves and arteries in the wrist, in the thinnest moving point of a hand. There are no "other" things (in the scope of this post, about keyboards) and yes, it is a fact.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> > It's sort of obvious to figure out that the less we have to move our hand > from the home row to the arrow keys, the more time we save. There is however > a more formalized way to look at this in the field of user interface design.

I feel like this thinking is flawed. When you are pressing a sequence of keys, your fingers don't wait for the first key to be pressed before the next finger starts moving to its key. This means that it is in position right after the first key is hit. One of the reasons that more optimized layouts (Dvorak, etc) don't seem to produce any speed up, Even though from a Fitt's law perspective they should.

Having a tiny keyboard will not make you faster and may slow you down because of all the layers you now need to use.

</comment><comment><USER39> I use the olkb plank ([https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw](https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw)) both at home and at the office. It started as fun to build, solder, and program but I soon realized that I was less fatigued after typing all day. My wrists don't break outward and I maintain my proper starting position longer as result of having less distance to travel between keystrokes. Take it for what it's worth, but at the very least they are a fun hobby project.

</comment><comment><USER40> What's everybody's preferred "shit I'm developing RSI and need to make ergonomic changes" keyboards? Wrist and thumb is unhappy, if that's happened to any of you.

<comment><USER20> I've been in the industry for decades as a engineer/programmer/developer, and I've never gotten RSI. I'm a big fan of the old IBM Model M mechanical keyboards with the buckling springs. I know it's not as cool as some of the things available or that people in this thread are making, but it gets the job done. It's also heavy and doesn't slide around, it has a metal bottom chassis and in case of an attack on your office, you could potentially use it as a shield or weapon.

Years ago after I got into Linux, I got one of these and it's still going strong. One of the best purchases I've ever made. Best of all, the Ctrl key is where it should be for *NIX people: [https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA](https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I never have any problems with wrist fatigue, and I've sometimes wondered if it's because I type "wrong". Holding your fingers at home row and stretching always felt weird to me, and I learned to type naturally. I primarily use three digits on each hand plus thumbs (no pinkies), and I move my hands back and forth as needed - no stretching or reaching.

I can type ~60 WPM if I'm really trying, but I never really have occasion to type that fast

<comment><USER34> This sounds a bit like my wife's typing. Super weird to watch, but she can go fast and never complains of pain despite doing 100% of her typing on a laptop.

My computer-related pain started maybe 3 years into my career, and mostly manifested in my fingers and hand, less in my wrist. I switched at that point to a Logitech Wingman trackball and a Microsoft Natural 4000 split, negative- tilt keyboard, and the pain went away almost instantly and hasn't come back in the 12 years or so since.

<comment><USER41> Interesting. I've never had trouble with the bog-standard MS keyboards that happen to come with most office workstations. I do like the feel of hybrid mechanical-rubber keys though, the click is nice.

My wife says my typing looks really weird too, but it works for me. Hours and hours of AIM chat when I was in junior high and high school paid off I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I tried a 60% about 10 years ago with a happy hacker but it wasn't a great keyboard to use and wasn't easily customisable or with many options. I just jumped back in this week with an Anne 2 Pro. I was moving from laptop back to desktop use and was looking to replace my full size with a mech TKL since I never use numpads ever but I wondered if corded replacements for some of those keys wouldn't be practical with a smarter bit of hardware so I gave it a go.

I have ~` replacing escape since I need them for shell and programming. I don't understand how any keyboard could drop that key. I set caps as a function key to access arrows (on hjkl as well as wasd) as well as the function keys and a few other features and it operates as Esc on tap which would be useful if I didn't have jj escape from insert mode. Overall very happy so far. There are a few window manager and term combinations I used to need to reach over to the arrows and which I never bothered to remap that I can do one handed.

It makes me want to become a proficient typist.

The only problem is it has better led light shows than the old full size gaming keyboard and the kids want to type on it all day.

</comment><comment><USER43> As someone who uses IntelliJ all day long I couldn't use a 40% keyboard at work due to all the layering combinations needed for F1 -> F12.

However I did try for a while, and the best I've gotten to is remapping my Caps Lock key to a meta key that converts hjkl to my arrow keys.

It's a small step, but I haven't looked back since. Typing is SO much faster when you never have to leave the home row.

</comment><comment><USER44> I recently moved to a 60% keyboard (Drop Alt with Clear switches) and really like it.

I find the _look_ of these 40% keyboards very appealing. But I also don't want to have to relearn to type or customize every keyboard I ever purchase in the future. If those barriers get reduced I think they could be very intriguing. Ortholinear keyboards are especially interesting...

<comment><USER45> I just hooked up my Alt with Clear this morning (previous daskeyboard). I miss the mx brown but I like how close the mouse is to the board and the reduction in reaching for the other keys. Having come from several years of split keyboards my main switching complaint was the switch and key quality was really bad. So this 40% is a positive step I hope catches on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Where is a hexagonal keyboard when you need it? Hexes are sweet for strategy and puzzle games, but could also be sweet for roguelikes if input devices were better. A smaller keyboard barely solves any problem, especially if you have palms as large as mine. But a hex keyboard would. Not even Kickstarter has something for hexagonal input device.

<comment><USER47> I just happened across [http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html) will reading through some of the links in this thread. Unfortunately his review is spartan, and not positive.

<comment><USER46> Hexagonal _arrow keys_ would have been enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Another person here who went to a 60% and I really enjoy it. I have built two with custom switch setups, one for gaming and one for general typing.

There's a lot of satisfying craftsmanship to buying a circuit board here, a case there, switches matching your style of typing, and lastly keycaps that have a nice aesthetic and color balance.

</comment><comment><USER49> I still much much prefer a full size keyboard. I could only find one on Amazon that would connect with bluetooth. I throw it in my luggage when traveling so at least in my hotel room I can use a full size keyboard.

I hate those wretched trackpads on laptops, and also throw a full size bluetooth mouse in my luggage.

<comment><USER50> I don't travel with an extra keyboard, but I do take a mouse.

An external mouse is so much better, and hardly takes up any space.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I've built a Planck (40% ortho) and I can say for sure that I personally don't find the short finger travel between keys to be worth having to hit two keys to type a number, for example. Instead of moving one finger an extra row to type a number, I now have to move two fingers.

<comment><USER52> The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the "planck" example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the rows). It also doesn't work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer but all on the same row, requiring 8 fingers across both hands to type them.

If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according with human hand/arm ergonomics (of particular relevance for chording, moving or extending thumb keys toward the body; the standard spacebar and modifiers are not especially comfortable), and use a thumb key located in a convenient spot for the layer shift, with the numbers typed using the fingers of the opposite hand, then chorded numbers are just fine: more comfortable and efficient than the standard approach of putting numbers on a separate row.

For cases when many numbers must be typed in sequence, making that layer shift key into an optional mode switch (to effectively turn half the keyboard into a numpad) works pretty well.

<comment><USER53> If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough and I hate typing camelcase code)

Number keys are also indispensable for games where you need to switch items while moving. A finger or two are already going to be busy with the motion keys, adding two more fingers that don't overlap with the motions is going for some octopus keyhandling.

<comment><USER52> The further keys on a sculpted Kinesis keyboard are angled the wrong way for comfortable typing (this is an unfortunate artifact of their curved PCB technology combined with lack of first-principles analysis by the designers). You want the switch axis to remain perpendicular to the hand, because flexing the proximal joint of the finger is the way people press keys, and using the whole hand to stab at further keys the way the sculpted Kinesis board requires is not particularly comfortable or efficient. There are also several other design problems with the Kinesis boards, but this isn't really the right place to discuss it at length.

It's certainly _possible_ to have 2 rows of reasonably reachable keys past the home row (especially if the tops of the further keys are aggressively raised – think 1950s typewriter). Even in the best case those keys are substantially slower and more error prone (and less comfortable) than the home row or next row above, but with decent design can be made nominally acceptable to type on.

But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions (like numbers and common symbols) on shifted layers, as long as the shift keys are conveniently located. Using pinkies for shift is not the most comfortable choice, especially pinky keys which are a stretch to reach. Modern keyboard layouts are quite terrible for making common computer code symbols accessible.

If you find it uncomfortable to hold down a shift key, consider trying a sequence of key presses instead. That is, let your "shift" just act as a dead key, modifying the immediately following keypress. Try putting your various shift keys on a thumb or forefinger. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key)

I have no particular insight into game inputs, except to note here that a significant proportion of serious computer game players develop severe RSI because their use of keyboard hardware is extreme (and arguably the hardware they use is not very well suited to handling the job safely).

<comment><USER53> > But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions on shifted > layers

I've never found that to be the case. For me, layers (and modifiers in general) have always been slower and more error prone.

Also, I find the number row on the kinesis quite comfortable. I have yet to find a comparable keyboard in that regard.

<comment><USER52> The Maltron is better than the Kinesis. Still not quite right though.

This (the "DataStealth") is a better designed-based-on-anatomy keyboard: [http://i.imgur.com/USaQaIG.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/USaQaIG.jpg)

Unfortunately never produced commercially.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I want to go the other way. I want a 200% keyboard. I don't want to have to type SHIFT for capital letters or symbols and I want extra keys for diagonal cursor movement. The SHIFT key is an artifact of the physical limitations of a typewriter and is no longer needed.

<comment><USER55> I want a key for each finger with no movement required. :)

<comment><USER56> [https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni](https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni)

I hear you can still get one before Christmas if you order soon :P

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> I don't have RSI, but it seems to me that rotating your wrists to press Ctrl with your pinky is one of the larger parts of the problem.

I prefer to press Ctrl with the side of my palm, but that doesn't work on some Lenovo and Apple laptops which Fn is at the edge of the keyboard.

<comment><USER58> You may want to check the BIOS for your laptop. It often has the ability to swap the `ctrl` and `fn` keys, which is nice for those of us that find their choice to put them on backwards from how they ought to have annoying.

<comment><USER57> That's a fair point, but I avoid on principle laptops with stupid keyboard layouts (which seem to be more and more common these days).

On the other hand, my current laptop (which I haven't bought) has no End key, but rather Home, PgUp, PgDn, Power.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> I have a Diverge 3 and I love the split aspect of it (easier on the wrists / nerves), and love the programmability (I have the keys that I use most near the home row), and I appreciate the wrist rest, but I miss the function keys' row. It has 71 keys.

I think 40% keyboards work well for gamers, but are impractical for developers, who need to access all the symbol keys ( (, {, [, etc;), and often need access to the function keys, too. Layering, having to press Fn and another key to achieve what could be a single keypress on a 101-key keyboard, just adds work. The input mechanism must be seamless so that one may focus on the actual work. The keyboard should just disappear. The much-touted keyboard.io has the same limitation.

<comment> callum-oakley As a full time 40% keyboard user, I take issue with the sentiment that the form factor is impractical for development. Holding a layer modifier to access symbols on the home row is less work than moving to the far reaches of a 101 key board, and often having to hit shift as well anyway!

I wrote an article on the subject recently if you're up for having your assumptions challenged: [https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are- plenty](https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty)

<comment><USER59> Interesting, thanks for the article! So it looks like there are two types of people: those who don't mind moving away from the home row a bit but have just one keypress (me) vs. those who value being on the home row and don't mind the additional keypress to access layers with symbols, arrows, , etc;

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> The chorded keyboard looks interesting too:

[http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded...](http://tbf- rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded-typing/)

</comment><comment><USER61> Absolutely love my Planck. I was going to build more keebs, but it's perfect for my needs, and my wrists feel infinitely better.

Another excellent solution is the XD75, which is ortholinear, but puts a number pad between QWERT and YUIOP. The spacing is absolutely great.

</comment><comment><USER62> Physically removing the number pad and the arrow keys can be useful because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the center, but removing the number row and function keys doesn't seem to provide any significant benefit for desktop usage.

</comment><comment><USER63> I use the Diverge 3 + Khaili box whites as my daily driver. It has more layers than I personally could ever effectively utilize. Absolutely love this setup.

I picked it up over the Ergodox. After having used my co-worker's erogdox repeatedly, I did not like how far the thumb cluster was and this simply brought it closer which is what the author is explaining with the minimal amount of movement.

I don't like 40% keyboards because I am still traditionalist in that numbers are still a first class key. Basically, what am I willing to give up and allow to be put into a cord/layer?

If I could, I would bring the arrow keys back out, but the design's cost goes up a lot when that happens.

<comment><USER64> I've found the small keys on the thumb clusters on the Ergodox to be a good location for select function keys. I don't have to hit them often, but much of the time I do, it must be in combination with some modifier keys for certain IDE shortcuts. I have seen layouts online where people assign nothing to them. As for the big keys on the thumb clusters, I don't find them to be an issue. I do think it would be better if they were moved in just a hair though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on MiniVan keyboards: [https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look- in...](https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-into-the- function-layers-of-the-mini-van)

Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly to your board using open source QMK firmware: [https://docs.qmk.fm](https://docs.qmk.fm)

Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack their own hardware.

</comment><comment><USER66> I own a HHKB[1] and while very pleasant to type with the fact that the function keys are on another layer can be cumbersome in some IDEs. In IntelliJ IDEs you have Ctrl + F9 to build (or something like that) which means pressing Ctrl + Fn + 9. Maybe the experience can be improved with better placement of the Fn-key (which on the HHKB is in the lower right corner).

Reading the comments about experiences with split and/or ergonomic keyboards makes me want to try some other variants.

[1] [https://www.hhkeyboard.com/](https://www.hhkeyboard.com/)

<comment><USER67> As a Vimmer, the HHKB is very close to perfection. I can reach every key without having to move my hands too far, the Fn key fall right under my right little finger and Control being in the correct place is a _huge_ win. The fact that it has Topre switches is the icing on the cake, I wouldn't use any other keyboard on a prolonged basis.

<comment><USER20> What is it about the Topre switches that you prefer?

<comment><USER67> I like the smooth action and 'thunk'. It's a pleasure to type on after many years' use.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> currently, i use split and concave mechanical keyboards with 38 keys[1] and 42 keys[2] and i have no problem so far. i also put mods on the homerows for left and right hand. whenever i want to type numbers, i only have to move down my thumb and then move down one of my three fingers. for symbols, i write haskell and racket, i don't have any problem either. as for f-keys and common shortcuts, i also don't have any problem. while writing prose, i literally don't have to move my wrists at all[3]. and here's my current layout [4].

[1] [https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG201...](https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG20191117024445.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&h=1000&w=1000)

[2] [https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl- keyboard/tree/coffin](https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin) or tree/master

[3] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec)

[4] [https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards...](https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards/handwired/dactyl_manuform/4x5/keymaps/sunat)

</comment><comment><USER69> One can make a programmable matrix layout keyboard with Two Koolertron keyboards. While it may be a bit bigger than the 40% keyboard, it's small, programmable, & has 96 keys or 94 keys in 3 toggleable layouts.

Gamers tend to use it has an extended numpad but I use it as my general keyboard with bespoke tilting upwards toward the middle.

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share)

<comment><USER70> I've never seen those, nice! I like the cute and minimalistic design with no labels. It's advertised as a "Single-Handed Programmable Mechanical Keyboard", a unit having 48 keys (in 4 groups of 4x3) - I see, so one for each hand. It being programmable sounds great, one could position characters and modifiers any which way to please.

Just curious, I suppose you've placed labels with your own mapping - or do you use the keys blank like that?

<comment><USER71> They also have a "Koolertron Programmable Split Mechanical Keyboard" which is basically two units working as a complete keyboard.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> I've been using an 1800 keyboard for the past few years (Leopold 980C), and think the size is perfect. I have access to all of the keys I need, all in a compact package. Add to that a programmable controller from Hasu, and it's the perfect board for me. I never need to actually use the arrow keys, as I put them under a layer under hjkl. I also use a trackball (Kensington Slimblade), so I don't need to have too much space to the right side of the keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER73> I use a 40% keyboard (the planck ez), and I have to say I really enjoy using it. Typing english is about the same speed at this point, but I'm still lagging a bit behind in programming, mostly because my brain still confuses layers and shift. The thing I love most through is that I no longer curl my left pinky under my hand to hit shift, and my pinky doesn't hurt all the time.

</comment><comment><USER74> While I like the look of some of these 40%/60% keyboards, the tall keys are a big no-no for me. My wrists hurt just by looking at it.

<comment><USER75> Some have really flat keys, like this: [https://user- images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...](https://user- images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06462b80-fc08-11e8-95fd-8d18763b38ff.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> Is anybody trying to combine the mouse input with the keys themselves? Ie embedding a nib? I'm thinking like a light touch on a home row key being interpreted as a mouse click. Have the nib input only register if the key is either depressed or not, depending on implementation.

<comment><USER77> TEX Yoda[0] mechanical and Thinkpad Compact USB Keyboard[1] scissor switch might interest you.

[0] [https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...](https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3924) [1] [https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and- monitors/keyboa...](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and- monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KEYBOARD-UK-English/p/0B47221)

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> I find this kinds of keyboards very interesting, but doing CAD work seems like a pain.

The biggest problem I find with all of this is that most of my software has locked down (or crappy systems for changing) shortcuts, so it would be painfully hard to set up one of this.

Interesting stuff anyway.

<comment><USER79> For CAD work, something like a large macropad might be helpful -- giving additional keys, rather than taking some away.

On a keyboard like the one linked below, every key can be programmed arbitrarily, i.e. you can set a single key to do "Control X" or whatever. I don't know if this can do it, but things like having a single key do "Control X, 5, move mouse left 5 pixels, Control K" are possible on some of these mechanical keyboards, given some programming ability.

("Gaming" macropads are also an option, the flashy LEDs can usually be disabled.)

[http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER80> I never really committed to hjkl until getting a pok3r. I love 60% keyboards now though I still get a bit mixed up every now and then when I accidentally hit the combo for "insert" or find myself in the wrong mode.

</comment><comment><USER81> 40% keyboards are cool. I was initially skeptical when I moved to a 40% keyboard from a full sized split keyboard. After couple of months, I observed no drop in productivity or had strains.

</comment><comment><USER82> Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing than upgrading/innovating devices.

<comment><USER83> Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited by your typing speed when coding?

I can type fast but there's no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing speed, I'm always pausing to think about what I'm writing. If you type slower, you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?

<comment><USER84> I think the discussion is about ergonomics, not speed.

<comment><USER83> Much of the discussion is about having fewer keys, resulting in more multiple key presses to type certain symbols. That's not improving ergonomics.

<comment><USER84> It seems some people find that not having to move the arms makes up for hand contortions.

But you're right, the article conclusion is that "First of all, the reduced distances will increase speed, (...) If it turns out that 40% keyboards can reduce Repetitive Strain Injury or R.S.I. (...)"

Anyway, I think touch typing helps in all fronts. The alternative is not just slower typing, it also adds a mental load that can only distract from the thinking.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> If you're going to go small you might as well go all the way and get a 30% keyboard like the Gherkin. Very portable and not too bad as long as you're willing to work with layers.

<comment><USER86> How do you quickly access the other layers to do a semicolon or colon or space with those keyboards? Saw a photo-- it's all letters.

<comment><USER87> Using software such as QMK you can program these custom boards to do anything. To answer your question all keys are accessible by turning whichever key you like into a modifier when held down so you can access another layer.

It's not that bad when you realize through your entire life you do the same thing with SHIFT to capitalize letters for example. All of these small boards are just an extension of that concept.

<comment><USER86> Sounds fun! Thanks for the reply.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER88> Check out KeyMouse, super cool concept.

<comment><USER53> I have one. It's too heavy and bulky for a mouse, and too flat & unergonomic for a keyboard. There are lots of pinky keys I find very difficult or impossible to reach when the hand is resting in the natural position on the device. And you don't want to move the hand too much around or you end up moving the mouse... Honestly the tiny little mouse buttons suck too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> I need that for my car.</comment>


On Overcoming Pain - <AUTHOR> https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5429 <comment><USER2> Suffering from chronic pain myself, I had two main thoughts when reading this:

1) "the realization that my life has changed for the worse in irreversible ways" \- This is a dangerous perspective. Yes, life has changed, but if you focus on 'for the worse', you step onto a path that leads to depression in 90% of chronic pain patients. I instead focus on what I still can do. I might never be an athlete again, but I can walk. I can take short hikes in the mountains. I've changed my hobbies from an active collection of martial arts, biking, and hiking, into more sedate things like painting and woodworking. I celebrate staying active for half a day instead of dwelling on the fact that I used to be able to move all day. Much of your ability to adapt to chronic pain is mental, not physical, and this is exactly why CBT is recommended as a therapy - to help you to frame your life in positive, productive behaviors that keep you going in the right direction.

2) Everyone's pain is different. There is no single answer for how people deal with it (or fail to deal with it). This post sounded to me less like someone trying to communicate with their audience, and more like someone thinking it through for themselves. So while I had mixed reactions to the details of it all, I think the act of having put it together is likely a healthy move, so I appreciate the effort to have done so.

<comment><USER3> This is a great attitude. You do what you can. In my younger days I felt I was indestructible. Other than a torn ACL from wake boarding, I never got hurt doing all sorts of sports from the mundane to the extreme. Even my ACL healed 100%.

Then, I herniated a disc in my lower back. I think it was from playing basketball (not really extreme heh). The pain was literally the worst thing I have ever felt. My back didn't hurt, but my leg from the hip to the foot felt like it was on fire or the skin was being pealed off. I couldn't sleep, walk, get in/out of a car, stand upright, lay flat, etc... Luckily a back injection got the inflammation and pain under control. But, my life going forward has forever changed. No more basketball. No more heavy deadlifts (I was deadlifting in the 500#s, now I stay 225# or less). No more heavy squatting. No more running (afraid of the impact). I do what I can and work from there, happy that modern medicine gave me a chance.

<comment><USER4> Similar I ruptured a lumbar disk climbing when I was 25/26\. I was also squatting and deadlifting heavy at the time. I went from the strongest time of my life to the weakest where I couldn't even tie my shoes without extreme pain. That lasted about three years where I gradually got better over time.

I feel healthy now and can walk, run, have excellent mobility. No more sciatic pain, some tightness in the lumbar if I'm careless.

I don't squat or deadlift at all anymore and focus more on calisthenics (pullups, pushups). I do a lot of running and it doesn't bother me.

But for those three years, things were dark. I brooded almost every day on my injury.

<comment><USER3> I couldn't imagine how hard 3 years must have been. I dealt with mine for about 5 weeks before I got an injection. It was slowly getting better on its own, but going for years would have been tough. I'm glad you made it through.

I do a ton of calisthenics, and thought about stopping squats and dead's completely. The reason I didn't is that they enforce good posture and the proper way to pick things up. They also strengthen all the muscles that will help keep me from being hurt again. With that said, I worked incredibly slowly back to where I am. From no weight to now. And, if I'm not feeling it that day, I have no problem just doing calisthenics or riding the bike. Ego be damned.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I suffer from chronic pain that is not curable. The doctors won't prescribe me any pain killers out of fear I could get addicted. Only alternative is a CBT therapy which can keep you stay relatively sane in that insane situation. Every day is a battle between should I just end it now or should I keep on surviving? I find it extremely depressing that medication that could potentially be helpful is illegal here and people seem to have no empathy whilst idea of popping heroin in hospital is totally fine. You probably know where I am getting at... I have tried cannabis but I never could get consistent quality or the same strain so 9 out of 10 times it didn't work and also made me feel impaired. On top of that at least 5 times I got sold spice (hemp flower sprayed with synthetic cannabinoids) and one time I got robbed at a knife point by a "dealer". I cannot understand why person who suffers like me has to go through that? What keeps me alive is Kratom which is also illegal but I can source it from a country where it is legal so the quality is consistent and good. I am saving money to move to a country where I can live as pain free as I can get but every day apart from the struggle I fear I'll become a criminal just because I want to live today. The system is fucked up and nobody cares.

<comment><USER6> When your decision of where you live is based on availability of drugs, I think there might be a serious problem lurking, which you may not even be consciously aware of. Good luck nonetheless.

<comment><USER7> > I think there might be a serious problem lurking

Yes, the chronic pain perhaps?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> One thing that was rather news to me is how the body falls back into default behaviors of questionable merit. When I was younger, I thought that, afflicted with some pain, I would learn to ignore it and soldier on. Hoo boy.

Turns out, chronic pain, when the prospects seem bad, drains your motivation away (even more so with _functional_ neural problems, which simply make you feel like crap 100% of the time). Now, if you happen to be of procrastinating type before that, you're left with zero motivation. Your mind is kinda hazy in the mornings, so you have to rely on your habits to carry you through. Every movement requires effort now. For a lot of illnesses, physical therapy is the right answer—and meanwhile, the instinct says to stay in the chair with a big breakfast and marathon BoJack Horseman.* Maybe later the mind will clear up a bit or the pain will ease up, and you'll swing dumbbells around or go outside. Oh what do you know, it's evening already.

This regime made my physique problematic in the first place! Why don't I have an instinct that would tell me to move around and exercise?

And this is cumulative, of course—I should be making some better habits for tomorrow, but instead I'm dropping everything that seems of no immediate importance, which is like all that makes life healthy and interesting.

So, I once believed that conscious effort would carry me through life—but if you look into pretty basic psychology, the ape brain is way more firm at making day-to-day decisions. It's better to have habits that will work for you in hard times. The sentimental books about how you need to 'overcome yourself' were right, only they were distant and nonspecific.

* Note that marathoning BoJack Horseman is definitely recommended in different circumstances.

<comment><USER9> The conscious mind is weak and will power alone is a laughable force, because it is an illusion. You have to use both logic and emotion. Logic when emotion is weak and emotion when logic fails. For me, it is about tricking your mind into being completely convinced there is no stopping the coming suffering (exercise, pain, whatever). You can call that habits (it is) but how you form and think of the habit is different if you are a procrastinator. I have broken bones and dealt with suffering like Bunnies (not as acutely extreme). There is a peculiar thing analytical people do with suffering and pain and it can be counterproductive. The overanalysis of it and trying to logic it all out. To cope through total understanding. Some of the time it is just easier to use and manipulate your own emotion, this can have a profound effect on reprogramming the brain back to a more normal state compared to trying to reason it all out from a mental perspective on recovery.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This has been a rough couple years personally and professionally for me. My dad almost died last March from multiple pulmonary embolisms. My mom had breast cancer for the second time. The Highrise drama. But the real weird underlying thing has been this constant chronic pain and other symptoms. I could barely move my left shoulder without a ton of pain. I stopped pushing doors open with my left arm for example to deal with it. I also couldn't walk up stairs without pain. My knees were awful. I chalked it all up to either stress or just mid life getting old. Then I started getting a ton of fluid in my ears. I thought it was some allergy that I just couldn't fully combat with antihistamines. It made me feel like I head a head cold. Cloudy. A little dizzy. And this just went on for a couple years.

I thought 40 was just my inevitable peak and it all sucks from here. Life took on a real grey hue.

Well. My wife made us go on some "anti inflammatory" diet. No gluten. No dairy. No sugar. No alcohol. Low carb. No snacking. I moaned about it for days.

After 5 days my body was dramatically better. All the joint pain disappeared. The fluid in my ears is either gone or drastically more manageable right now.

I'm still on a similar diet today but not as strict. And I remain feeling really good. I can't believe I was living with all this chronic pain this long and could have just changed up my diet.

So I drop this story here because I bet there's some other folks out there that could see some impact in their life just being a bit more aware of their diet.

For me I have no idea what the real cause is. Sugar? Alcohol? Dairy? I've heard from others they have a sensitivity to a food and had similar symptoms. I took a food sensitivity test at everlywell.com which mentions a high sensitivity to brewers yeast. So maybe it's that. Maybe my body just needed a detox to reboot. Who knows. But I feel great.

(The diet I went on was in an ebook from a healthy heart Facebook group [https://m.facebook.com/groups/thehappyheartproject/](https://m.facebook.com/groups/thehappyheartproject/)) but it isn't magical or mysterious. You can just figure it out yourself by staying away from the things I mentioned above for 5 days.

<comment><USER11> I'm always glad to read of another person getting multiple benefits from low/ish carb eating. I live with chronic pain from a spinal infection and also happen to have disordered eating issues. Low carb was _an_ answer to both of those problems. It's not magic, I won't hail it as the one solution to myriad problems but my inflammatory markers, blood sugar markers (reversed t2d), weight (lost 200lbs) and ability to live with a modicum of normality (was bed bound) don't lie.

For anyone that likes complex problem solving and wants to start down the low carb road, I cannot recommend Ivor Cummins'[1] and Dr. Jeff Gerber's[2] work on diabetes and cholesterol enough.

[1] [https://twitter.com/FatEmperor](https://twitter.com/FatEmperor)

[2] [https://twitter.com/JeffryGerberMD](https://twitter.com/JeffryGerberMD)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This blog post is beautifully written.

The most profound dilemma to me from my own outcome of pain is how "people who haven't lived the specific pain" are calling the shots. How illnesses resulting in physical & psychological pain are handled by treatments tailored by people who haven't experienced the pain. Similar with the allocation of finances and the perception of how one should adapt their outlook on life; based on how outsiders of the experience looking in will decide on what's best. It's comparable to how a victim is so easily coerced & manipulated in a lesser state and when having faith in persons with the status of attempting to help. Personally, I would trade my life in a heart beat for without daily pain and never the experience. Psychologically I can understand why people look to feel grateful for insight or to make people educated about pain. Sadly, I think it's just an irrational attempt in making one try to accept the unfortunate circumstances from the cruel will of the universe.

</comment><comment><USER13> I live with chronic pain. (ankylosing spondylitis)

I take prescription NSAIDs and other drugs for a long time. Also a lot of acetaminophen per day. (Which I carefully monitor.) I also take, occasionally, narcotic pain killers (hydrocodone). Next January (2019) will be ten years since I added hydrocodone to the drugs I use for this.

But it is a tool. Nothing more. I take it only when I need it. I don't have any predictable usage pattern. It is for occasional use only. I have a very healthy fear of taking it at all, but if I'm in enough pain, I'll overcome that and take some. I have a good life and don't want to screw it up with narcotic pain killers. I have never had any resistance when asking for a refill. Neither my primary doctor nor arthritis specialist are worried that I'm taking too much.

If anything, I've noticed that in the last couple years, I've slowed down my usage a little bit. (Measured by time between refills.)

I think in pain management, the first thing is "learn to live with it", and then, "there are good drugs for days when it is really bad". (just IMO) I'm always looking for the lowest dose I can take that will be effective for any particular episode. I don't want to build up a tolerance. And I suppose I must not have built up a tolerance in ten years of occasional use.

I haven't become addicted. But I also don't drink alcohol. Or smoke. Or use very much caffeine. Maybe that is related, or maybe not.

I would say that hydrocodone has improved my quality of life. I get out and do things I sometimes wouldn't otherwise do.

Last year I was in Colorado and tried some, .... uh, ... products. First, I thought they were pretty pricey compared to hydrocodone, which costs me only $5 for a bottle of 30. Second, while they did help some, I didn't think they were nearly as effective. The hydrocodone is more like a nuclear weapon for pain.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm in my mid 30s and have had migraine headaches for well over a decade now. The pain is so intense and overwhelming at times tears flow, and I moan in the dark with the only hope that time will pass and it will eventually get better at some point. The headaches occur as frequently as multiple times a week, and can last for a whole day or days on end (the more severe ones are shorter lived).

I go to sleep with pain, and on many days wake up with pain. I have to hold down a job and take care of family, so I put on a wincing face and deal with it. I like to think I can mask the pain well, but my family tells me otherwise. I've tried medicines, injections, and countless remedies over the years and spent a bunch of money on doctors. But there is no reliable cure for me so far. I do all the usual things that people do at my stage in life, I laugh, I play, I go to work and do well ... but I don't think anyone really understands how much I have to kill of myself (my desires, my wish to be in a dark room with no noise and isolated, my wish to sit around and do nothing and just pass out with pain) to get thru each day. That has left me lonely, and a bit distrustful perhaps of people - though I try not to act on that thought.

A few years ago, I tried cannabis. Living in a state where it is illegal was a problem - both legally and with my job. I got a few different strains and experimented with it over the course of a few weeks. When I found the strain that worked, I cried. I cried so much. I was pain free in a way that I hadn't known in nearly 2 decades. I didn't even realize how much and where I was hurting. Apart from my head, every muscle in my body was hurting due to the constant strain of dealing with pain. And it was all gone. Gone. I felt like I was born again for a few days. And then it was over. I couldn't continue with it due to it being illegal. It was then I really understood how immoral having at a minimum cannabis not being allowed for medical purposes is. I don't know if it is a long term solution as I didn't have an opportunity to gather enough data and observations - but surely there is potential. I also didn't have any side effects, with the exception of "the munchies" \- which is very real :).

</comment><comment><USER15> I had a shoulder surgery last year. I definitely learned about constant pain and some tips for dealing with it (with and without drugs).

Some random observations:

Meditation can help. My pain was more connected with my emotional state than I expected (much worse when stressed and much better when distracted by an enjoyable experience). Pain and negative emotions reinforce each other. Narcotics often break the concentration that makes meditation reduce pain. Nevertheless sometimes you gotta load up on narcotics so you can attempt to get the sleep your body needs to heal.

In my case I went through about 40 percacet the first week. But took 5-6 weeks for the next 40, and then I was off the heavy stuff and stuck to ibuprofin.

My shoulder still hurts.

</comment><comment><USER16> I managed to injure the epithilium on both eyes and developed corneal lesions after a particularly bad bout of dry eye. I spent more than two weeks at home, hunkering in the dark due to photosensitivity, without any pain medications. The pain was intense enough that it felt like needles going directly into my eyes, with radiating pain that wrapped all the way around my head. With antibiotic eyedrops and therapeutic contact lenses, my eyes were able to heal, but for a time I was at risk of blindness. I sympathize with anyone who has chronic pain, especially the psychological aspect of facing a life severely diminished.

</comment><comment><USER17> "It's well documented that trauma imprints itself vividly onto the brain"

I tore ligaments in my knee several years ago. The paragraph about the accident was extremely hard to read and caused me actual physical discomfort!

<comment><USER18> I'm currently 1 week into recovery from a painful shredded (the surgeon's words) patellar tendon and repair.

On reading certain passages, my afflicted leg (and only that leg) got tingles and goosebumps and the rest of me just... cringed... in horrified empathy. I feel ill just thinking about OP's pain, and knowing, as OP does, that this is nothing compared to the pain of certain other maladies makes me wonder how anyone can bear it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I have near constant neck pain and have done every route I can think to mitigate,manage,cure or deal with it. The strangest part is it switched sides randomly. I've tracked/logged it multiple times and can make no sense of why it switches. I think I need to track more things I'm doing to see what's related to it... neck surgery, stim, acupuncture, multiple types of therapies, heart, cold, massage, etc.. all give negligible results.

<comment><USER20> I'm sorry to hear you have constant pain. I deal with constant neck pain, and I can tell you two things that really, really helped (after trying pretty much everything and even considering surgery). The first one is reading "Healing Back Pain" by John Sarno. As an engineer the prospect of reading a book to manage pain sounded quite dumb, but I can assure you it removed 90% of the pain. The other thing that worked was taking 0.5mg Clonazepam whenever the pain got worse. I got the prescription from a doctor saying that it works for some patients with chronic pain.

Please do yourself a favor and read that book, I hope it helps (it did help a very skeptical me one year ago).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm surprised the author was able to determine (and remember) the names of all the drugs they were getting during this perceptional rollercoaster ride.

<comment><USER22> They provided an itemized, timestamped receipt. (Source: Bunnie is a colleague of mine.)

<comment><USER23> Can I bet his memory is always quite good ? even though he was numbed at the time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> _> if you find yourself in an unfortunate situation, my main advice is to pay attention and learn as much as you can from it._

It seems to me that this is the _function_ of pain.

If one could voluntarily embrace this process, would this make opioids less necessary and/or desirable?

<comment><USER25> > If one could voluntarily embrace this process, would this make opioids less > necessary and/or desirable?

It certainly would, but "embracing" the process of pain is an enormous mental and physical challenge.

Entire religions, for example, are devoted to separating the mind from the experience of the body. But this takes _years_ of conscious effort.

<comment><USER24> I've noticed that when I stub my toe the suffering is considerably reduced if I focus on the pain.

<comment><USER26> By focus you mean jumping around and screaming/cursing at the furniture. Agreed this helps me as well.

<comment><USER24> Those are the standard tools of distraction which I employed in earlier years. I actually mean standing quietly still and shifting as much 'internal attention' as possible to the injured toe.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Pharmaceutical companies should build web apps - <AUTHOR> http://www.medcrunch.net/pharmas-sales-savior/

<comment><AUTHOR> happy to hear your thoughts on this. the idea is that pharma should build apps OUTSIDE of their core competencies. eventually they should start acquiring companies like sermo.com to obtain physician access.

why are they not doing that? pharma is a sales business!</comment>