Craigslist has been disrupted - <AUTHOR> http://www.quora.com/Why-hasnt-another-product-disrupted-and-replaced-Craigslist/answer/Josh-Hannah <comment><USER2> _> "I don't think Craig's a bad guy, but he's harvesting $50M a year into his pockets and not improving the site"_

Not sure about the definition of "improving the site" here. I'm thankful to CL for not building gratuitous UI, or half assed "social" element, or "tweet this post to your social graph". Instead they work on improving the content by fighting certain types of abuse, having the founder do customer support and keeping the site working under the huge traffic it's handling.

I don't remember seeing CL down or even slow - no cutesy "site is down" pages - which says to me they're improving the site constantly, just not in the way that gets the hypeosphere excited.

<comment><USER3> The fact that they haven't done the things you describe doesn't change the fact that craigslist is a terrible product.

It is clogged with spam. Clever types of spam, often ones that crowdsource their content by mining previously legit posts. Since there are no reputation mechanisms to speak of, it's far too easy to waste your time with stuff that's either spam or a scam.

Meanwhile, data visualization has progressed dramatically in the last decade. craigslist remains in 2001. Wading through apartment listings, for example, is miserable, and there are almost no mechanisms in place to encourage that very basic information is communicated by people listing their properties.

craigslist can keep its hideous, serifed-out visual design as long as it wants. The big beef here isn't how craigslist looks – it's _how it works_.

The fact your dog doesn't shit on your pillow doesn't excuse his taking a dump in your shoes every day.

<comment><USER4> _Wading through apartment listings, for example, is miserable, and there are almost no mechanisms in place to encourage that very basic information is communicated by people listing their properties._

Where is a good place to look for apartments? Most "apartment search" sites that look prettier than CL usually are cluttered with a high ads to info ratio, inaccurate info and/or are slow to load/navigate...

<comment><USER3> A nit to pick, since elai has already provided some good examples.

> Most "apartment search" sites that look prettier...

None of these gripes are about appearance except inasmuch as appearance reflects functionality. craigslist is ugly, but that's not the problem. craigslist _doesn't work well_. I don't want it to look different. I want it to work differently.

A competing site could look much prettier than craigslist and still work no better.

<comment><USER5> My buddy is 40 years old, not very technical, but he's one hell of a mechanic. He's been making his living off buying and selling cars off of CL since the recession started. Just an anecdote. I'm not sure an "improved UI" would help him. So many entrepreneurs are mad at CL for whatever reason, but the main one seems to be jealousy. They would rather ruin it than allow it to continue.

<comment><USER6> I found that nearly every used car I looked at on CL was either being resold by small-time "car dealers" or bought up by these same people. It was nearly impossible to find a good used car so I finally leased a new one instead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Craigslist is the most UNBROKEN site on the web. It works flawlessly. Just yesterday I bought a cell phone from a local guy on Craigslist.

Scrolled down the page. Found the phone I wanted in the city I wanted for the price I wanted. Called him, met at a restaurant, paid for the phone, and we went on our way.

It was perfect.

<comment><USER8> From the top answer:

"if I'm looking to rent an apartment, it would be nice not to see the same listing reposted every day, and having to re-read it and figure out if I've called them before. It might be even nicer to view them on a map, or god forbid have new and relevant listing emailed to me."

Is that not broken? Sure sounds it to me.

I had my first experience of using AirBNB today. From start to finish it was an absolute pleasure; a real example of using some of theis "web 2.0" tech to provide a better experience to the user, and ultimately connect buyer to seller more efficiently. Excellent search experience, great integration with maps, ajax where it made sense, crowd sourcing was useful (feedback).

I don't know too much about the space but by the popularity of airbnb it certainly seems like it is disrupting at least one part of the space craigslist has historically occupied.

<comment><USER9> It's not broken, the apartment shopper is broken for not taking their own notes! Jeez, does Craigslist have to make up for _everybody's_ personal failings?

I've heard of PLENTY of frustrated attempts to use Airbnb, enough that I would not use them without a Craigslist-level of (caveat-) emptorial vigilance. I wouldn't call your experience with them to be unbelievable, but Airbnb has not solved the Craigslist "random scammer" problem by any means.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This graph:

[http://d2o7bfz2il9cb7.cloudfront.net/main- qimg-c18ef2d8f8bd7...](http://d2o7bfz2il9cb7.cloudfront.net/main- qimg-c18ef2d8f8bd771cb9c9a0d126d0af76)

is showing exactly the reason Craigslist is doing well.

Each of the alternatives displayed represents a specialized, vertical solution for just one (or a couple) of the categories offered by Craigslist, There is no way that Craigslist could compete head to head with every one of them anyway, at best they could choose a couple of categories and build new products focused on them.

Instead they are choosing to be a general platform.

Nothing lasts forever, and no doubt Craigslist will fade away over time, as will facebook, myspace and Windows itself, but in the meantime they are pretty well positioned, providing a 'good enough' solution for a wide range of categories is just as reasonable as providing a targetted solution to a specific category.

What they would absolutely fail to do is provide an excellent vertical solution for every category they offer,

Which means those competitors on that graph would still exist even if Craigslist improved its site, and probably they would still be doing well.

<comment><USER11> You know, that's a really good point. I may go straight to StubHub if I'm really into seeing ballgames, but am I really going to remember the hot new startups focusing on apartment rentals, spa services, or used car parts? No, I'm just going to Craigslist for any of my peripheral needs.

<comment><USER12> Exactly, the inability to remember 50 specialized marketplaces means that CL's position is pretty much secure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I am actually really glad Craigslist doesn't try to Buzz or #Dickbar itself and doesn't have those obnoxious social buttons/plugins all over the place. Newmark just wants to maintain a useful simple site. That's why Craigslist will be around forever, he doesn't spring unwelcome surprises on his userbase.

Also Craigslist probably gets used more heavily when the economy isn't doing so well. I'm not sure his magical line graph is as predictive as he imagines.

</comment><comment><USER14> What's wrong with just being a stable place? Why does everything have to evolve? Craigslist works fine for a lot of people. It is familiar, doesn't hog bandwidth, and doesn't leak personal information like a sieve. Sometimes a hammer just needs to keep being a hammer.

<comment><USER15> Great point. I think this concept of "disruption" is out of place anyway when the existing site is mostly free and works fine on mobile devices. You might be able to steal traffic bit by bit by doing a better job, but there's nothing to really disrupt in a dramatic way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> As a business in 2010 CraigsList derived an estimated 53% of their revenue from job listings, 30% from adult ads, and 17% from rentals.

The adult ads went out the window which is going to hurt them, a LOT, in terms of both traffic and revenue.

So the more material question is has CL's largest revenue category - job's - been disrupted?

I was able to dig up this graph of job mention volume and it appears that CL, in their most important category, is gaining velocity, not slowing down:

<http://www.jobgoround.com/tools/craigslist-job-trends/> (set to one year)

and <http://www.simplyhired.com/a/jobtrends/trend/q-Craigslist>

Reference for percentage of revenues: [http://www.ere.net/wp- content/uploads/2010/04/Craigslist-201...](http://www.ere.net/wp- content/uploads/2010/04/Craigslist-2010-revenue.jpg)

<comment><USER17> _CraigsList derived an estimated 53% of their revenue from job listings, 30% from adult ads_

Not surprising, as those are markets with a supply-demand imbalance. These seem to gravitate towards marketplaces that require lots of hoop jumping, I guess because it artificially pares down the demand.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> So Craigslist is supposedly being disrupted by all of these startups that are taking over various parts of what Craigslist does, and yet I don't know any of those competitors.

When I am looking for something cheap, I go to Craigslist. I don't want to have to remember 10 - 20 different site names because of different categories. That in and of itself is a great plus to Craigslist. It's all there when you get to the page...

<comment><USER19> We have remote employees that come to San Francisco for 1-4 weeks at a time. We used to find temporary places for them on Craigslist. AirBnB is _much_ more helpful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I wonder how much of this disruption can be attributed to the removal of the erotic ads section. You can see a major slowing of momentum around the time they were taken down (May '09). I mean that was an area without any major competition and which I'm sure accounted for TONS of traffic.

</comment><comment><USER21> I guess, but I've never heard of any of the things disrupting it, other than AirBnB.

The apartment spam on Craigslist just means that it's harder to find an apartment, not that there is some other site to use.

<comment><USER22> Surely you're exaggerating. You've never heard of Etsy, okcupid, PlentyofFish, StubHub, or CouchSurfing? CouchSurfing in particular is mentioned very often alongside AirBnB, and okcupid has had at least one front page story on HN this year (namely their acquisition.)

<comment><USER23> I might be an atypical user (?), but none of those sites appear to do the two things I and everyone else I know use Craigslist for: 1) buy/sell used goods; and 2) find long-term apartment rentals.

For #1, eBay seems to be the only real competitor, and does non-shippable goods poorly (Ebay Classifieds has never really taken off). For #2, I don't really know of any (AirBnB and Couchsurfing are good for trips, but not really for finding somewhere to live).

<comment><USER22> I agree with you that none of these sites actually tackle the main uses of craigslist. I was merely questioning your assertion that you'd never heard of any of them :).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I don't know. The author states that CL is a bad site as if it is an accepted fact. He doesn't make a case for it he just starts with it as an axiom. Why does he assume this? Maybe it doesn't have enough flash, or css shadows or what?

CL is a great site that does exactly what people expect of it. You post classified ads in your local market and people get in touch with you. It is a web based classified ad and it works. When I want to buy something used locally and am not in a hurry I look through CL. Right now there is no other site organized to do this that works and is available in every market. Why should there be? CL works fine.

Because it's free it killed off newspaper classifieds but so what. Their bitter and angry competitors have to resort to dirty tricks like trying to get the police and FBI to investigate CL, which shows how desperate and out of ideas the competition is.

</comment><comment><USER25> As an outsider looking in, I'm wondering to what degree the comments posted here on HN about Facebook (that it is full of people who don't tell the truth and who try to scam for monetary advantage) report a fact of human nature that might eventually disrupt Quora? What is Quora's defense against turning into a place with rather low-quality posts as soon as it attracts a lot of eyeballs?

</comment><comment><USER12> This post is an example of the Silicon Valley echo chamber at its finest.

With regards to the vertical sites eating their base, I call BS. Regular users who don't live on the internet can't/don't want to remember 50 different sites. The halo effect for a marketplace site like this is very strong.

Craigslist is fighting extremely hard against spam, to the point where they're starting to make people jump through hoops by requiring phone numbers and texting confirmation codes for certain categories. They've even resorted to silent "hellban" style hiding for posts called "ghosting", which affects a lot of innocent posters in the housing categories. There's unfortunately a lot of money in scamming, so the scams keep coming despite all of this.

The dip in traffic is pretty easily explainable by the banning of adult content, and I've never known Compete/Quantcast to be even within 3x of actual numbers, so using those as proof of anything is pretty dubious. This may be different on a site as large as CL, but even on sites with millions of monthly visitors, I've seen some laughably wrong numbers.

RE: Craigslist not being "Social", what is more social than person-to-person selling? Does he just mean that they haven't put ugly buttons for x different social networks that their main constituency has never heard of?

Craigslist is all about being useful and accessible, fad of the week be damned. Their design decisions have made it harder to do quality control, but it has made it accessible to people to whom posting on many of the sites you take for granted would be confusing. It's a tradeoff, and it has worked out wonderfully for them on the whole.

</comment><comment><USER26> Funny, seems that the author of the image in the article only uses "adult" and "rants and raves" categories on Craigslist. :)

<comment><USER27> A relevant comment from the post:

> _You might want to put lines on that graph showing that Craigslist was sued > for its adult classifieds on May 4th and removed the section on September > 4th. One could argue that the disruption has primarily occurred because of > those events._

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Good enough has been Craigslist biggest strength. You sure can innovate your self out of a good product, It does not always mean improvement. Disruption..I don't think so, competition yes. I'm pretty sure the use of disruption is getting diluted...... For the website It's not getting worse, that's a decent accomplishment for a website that's been around for such a long time.

When Craigslist is dead and gone, then I think we can have a informed decision about Craigslist disrupted status.(Wait! Just checked.....still lots of postings)

</comment><comment><USER29> gnu grep disrupted, folks using new fangled Google instead. Craiglist is a great, stable design that works with a uniform interface to do common transactions that occur in most peoples lives. Can they be outpaced within a vertical? Sure, but their USP lies in the newspaper classifieds that they sought to displace originally. Until someone else comes up with a better catch all for real life transactions that is more economical and convenient, I wouldnt consider craigslist disrupted.

</comment><comment><USER30> The site may be retro, but we think the data is great. Historically, its been hard to get and build on -- but we think it doesn't have to be that way because exchange postings are public facts and thus should be public propert that anyone can build on. Yahoo pipes was in theory a way of making this available for 3,000 developers -- but the RSS feeds were very incomplete and missed huge chunks of data becuase they are updated only every 15 minutes at most, and only for 100 postings at a time. When thousands of postings are streaming by, that's impossible to build something rigorous on top of.

We've focused on creating a Craigslist firehose equivalent to the Twitter firehose so that the good data can be enjoyed by all, regardless of how you feel about the site. Its developer accessible at 3taps.com/developers, and the fruits of that access can be seen at craiggers.com. Bottom line is that regardless of how you feel about the site (which grosses MUCH more than $50M a year based on the stream of data we see), the data itself is pretty darned interesting.

</comment><comment><USER31> I have no problem with this.

He doesn't need to re-invest - he's the only investor (more or less). As was pointed out, there's other sites which do a better job, so if you don't like it, don't use it. Mr. Newmark and his staff are well-off with little effort. Even if they lose 90% of their revenue, we're still talking millions.

Heck, that's brilliant.

</comment><comment><USER32> Now I realise that everybody here lives in CA or NY but there are plenty of places around the world where craigslist never took off.

<http://sydney.craigslist.com.au/apa/> <http://manchester.craigslist.co.uk/apa/> <http://auckland.craigslist.org/apa/> <http://rome.it.craigslist.it/apa/>

and it's interesting that:

<http://paris.en.craigslist.org/apa/>

seems to have ads all in English.

</comment><comment><USER33> Yes I totally agree why craigslist dominates the industry because of simplicity and ease of use for users. Craigslist has always been the place where i go first to look for used products especially cars. But there are two things i dislike about craigslist. One is sometimes you'll receive fishing emails asking you to reset password where you later noticed your computer is contain with viruses. Second, buying stuff on craigslist can be very time consuming especially with cars. You'll definitely have to travel multi times to different sellers before finding your ideal item. Plus the photos on craigslist are so low quality, you barely can see any scratches or damages. One time i had to traveled 2 hours to check out a car posted on craigslist then realized the seller lied to me which wasted 4 hrs of my time driving back and forth. So i started a website to help people buy and sell used stuff via videos instead of photos. I believe video is the best way to showcase something second hand online. It can save people so much time traveling to many places when they can instead watch it online without leaving the comfort of their homes. Although there are some disadvantages of using video to advertise your products but it can go a long way in the future as technologies increasingly advance. What do you think about the video concept? Can video replace photos for second hand market sometime in the near future?

Leon- <http://www.123exchanges.com>

<comment><USER9> Phishing emails are by no means restricted to Craigslist users, nor are they CL's responsibility. Should I complain to Chase bank that I received a phishing email in their guise?

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> The sad thing is that it would be quite easy to drastically improve Craigslist. First, a simple CSS and design cleanup like this one: [http://www.wired.com/images/article/magazine/1709/ff_craigsl...](http://www.wired.com/images/article/magazine/1709/ff_craigslist7_f.jpg)

No drastic changes, just a cleanup. Then you add an advanced search tool with maps and filtering based on some criterias like distance and price.

Then there's issue of spam. Solve these three issues, and CL is basically "fixed".

</comment><comment><USER35> Housing and Jobs are probably 90% of Craigslist traffic (and 100% of revenue?).

AirBnB is not even trying to be a replacement for Craigslist's housing section (and it isn't). It's a replacement for Hotels.com

Indeed/SimplyHired are nothing more than modern day Monster.com/Dice.com.

I also wouldn't take that Quantcast estimated chart at face value. It could easily be that even the trend is wrong and Craigslist is doing better than ever.

</comment><comment><USER36> Who cares? It's Craig's list, not your list. He can do whatever the hell he wants with it.

In addition I get the impression most people here who lambast CL as being full of spam live in areas that CL is not thriving in. Ask a New Yorker or a Bay Area resident about how useful CL is and then rethink your perspective.

CL works. It gets the job done. 'Nuff said.

</comment><comment><USER37> I, for one, prefer the no-frills Craigslist approach to any of the competitors.

</comment><comment><USER38> The graph is US traffic only and they peaked at 16.6% of the entire US population visiting the site once a month. Google called this the "law of large numbers" in 2006 when they predicted a slowing in their growth and Microsoft did the same a long time ago when they hit saturation.

The drop is only during the last 6 months, is less than 10% and could be a variety of factors including a stats gathering quirk, recession, etc.

</comment><comment><USER39> Simply plotting their apartments or stuff for sale on a map would make a big difference in ease of use. A YC company, Padmapper, does this for you, but why doesn't CL see this as utterly necessary? Searching for something, be it an oak table or a house rental, is exasperating. Realtor.com, a site that's totally behind, got on the mapping thing more than a year ago. Amazing that CL hasn't done the same.

<comment><USER40> I dunno, it's pretty effective to narrow one's search by the part of town you're looking in, for example, in L.A. you can break it down by Central L.A., SF Valley, SG Valley, etc. and then search by city name. Click the map link to see where the exact location is. It's really not that hard. Found my current jewel of a home that way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'm certainly willing to concede that Craigslist has work to do in order to beat spammers and improve the usefulness of their product. But he has one core competitive advantage over his competition that, to my mind, trumps. That core advantage? I trust Craig Newmark, and I do not trust his competitors. I like his style. And as far as Kijiji goes, I wouldn't buy a ham sandwich from Meg Whitman.

</comment><comment><USER42> This argument relies on Quantcast data that's not directly measured. When sites such as Compete, Quantcast and Alexa take a stab at measuring site traffic without direct measurement (like Google Analytics), the estimates they come up with are always way, way off. Unless there's better evidence that Craigslist traffic is declining, I don't buy it.

</comment><comment><USER43> Despite these disruptions, the company is unparalleled from a profit-per- employee perspective. Craiglist's network effect may have reached its limit, but the company will continue to make huge profits. They clearly favor maintenance over product development, but that doesn't diminish their status as a profit-per-employee anomaly.

</comment><comment><USER44> "I don't think Craig's a bad guy, but he's harvesting $50M a year into his pockets and not improving the site."

Pretty sure Craig Newmark is a nonprofit sort of guy with perfunctory role in the company. Blame Jim Buckmaster for Craigslist's refusal to evolve.

<comment><USER45> The only people who are in a position to lay any blame are the owners.... and we can be fairly certain the site is going in the direction they want it to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Is there anything better than CL for apartments in the SF area? RentHop (in the graphic in the article) looks like it's NYC only.

I'm looking at a move to San Mateo this summer and every "apartment finder" website I've tried has been a pitiful experience.

<comment><USER47> Take a look at padmapper - it's craigslist apartments data with filtering and on a map.

<comment><USER48> May I recommend MapThatPad as well to store your results

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> The problem with the article is that it believes that sites like OLX are the disruptors. The real disruptors are the care.com's, the airbnb's, and others who are bringing a great UI and social experience to a category and owning it.

</comment><comment><USER50> I completely agree with Josh that there is a gap in functionality that needs to be filled. I often hear the argument that I should be grateful for this free online service... Poppycock! My attention on the internet is worth something. Especially for such a profitable industry as classifieds.

If I'm looking for a house on the internet I want to be able to zoom into a certain area on a map and click 'refresh' to see all the relevant rentals with little pins on the map. This is not rocket science. Craigslist has a rich database and could make it far more useful and user friendly. There is something to be said for simple and minimalist design. Craigslist, however seems 'not designed' at all with little regard for making things easy to find or relevant.

<comment><USER45> So somoene is free to go out and fill it - craigslist is under no obligation to do this. They're private. They can do what they want.

Just because a whole LOT of people would love to get their hands on it because they think they could make billions off it or monetize it better doesn't turn it into an obligation. Craigslist is what it is - and if Newmark is pulling in 50 million a year off it, for all this time, he's probably not all that concerned if the site dwindles out over the next half a decade, if it does that. Unless he has a horrid gambling habit he's probably sitting awfully pretty right about now.

Nobody's forcing you to use craigslist. If you have a better site out there, go use it. IF you think you can do better, try pitching it to them. IF you just want to whine that it's not as good as it could be and you aren't satisfied as a customer... wait.. you aren't a customer. Nevermind.

Craigslist is doing fine without you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Here is why Craigslist was so successful in the first place:

<http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html>

</comment><comment><USER51> craigslist won't be disrupted for the simple reason because they have a ton of traffic...UI etc, is pointless for classifieds since the only thing people care about is whether or not the service has buyers/sellers for the things they want...and Craigslist has that in spades.

i.e. I recently listed a car for sale on craigslist...listed it on Friday evening and got 8 interested people in a few hours, and it sold the next day.

<comment><USER52> I'm sure there's someone who said that about newspaper classifieds once too.

<comment><USER51> newspaper classifieds didn't have the traffic in a single location

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> Don't underestimate the beauty that is the cash cow.

<comment><USER54> Seriously. How many sites have gone the way of Digg, innovating their way into obscurity? If CL is still on top after all these years they're doing something right, even if that something is... nothing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> I hope people recognize that CL's continuing longevity is _because_ of it's simplicity, not _in spite_ of it.

</comment><comment><USER56> Craig's List can be enhanced. I'm surprised no one has done it yet.

</comment><comment><USER57> Dealing with Craigslist in NY I found it to be full of scammers and spammers.

Buying from people listing on craigslist is very much a buyer beware experience. Plenty of bait and switch. And my personal favorite "It's currently in pieces, you can pay me and take the pieces away. All the pieces are there but you have to pay cash first."

Craigslist has a lot of room for improvement and it would great to see useful changes made.

<comment><USER58> This is one of the biggest problems: no feedback system for accounts. Since there is almost no barrier to entry, it's really easy for scammers.</comment></comment>


Eric Holder: The Justice Department Could Strike Deal with Edward Snowden - <AUTHOR> https://www.yahoo.com/politics/eric-holder-the-justice-department-could-strike-123393663066.html?soc_src=unv-sh&soc_trk=ma <comment><USER2> If you make a martyr out of Snowden you'll bring a lot of negative attention to the issue of mass-surveillance. So the best outcome from the USG's perspective is for Snowden to go through some level of punishment that will act as a deterrent for other would-be whistle-blowers while not rustling the feathers of anti mass-surveillance proponents.

Makes you wonder, does the USG feel a sense of relief now that all this mass- surveillance stuff is out there and the general public doesn't care that much?

<comment><USER3> Yeah, maybe there is some slow-burning anger that will cause problems later, and maybe there have been bad consequences that haven't been revealed, but for the most part this seems to have worked out great for them. They can pat themselves on the back for "passing reforms", _and_ not a lot of people care (at least anymore?).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Am I the only person who welcomes this? Obama could come out tomorrow and admit he was wrong and people would still think there is some ulterior motive there. Of course, the government has lied before, but Holder isn't even part of the administration anymore. The fact that anyone, even someone no longer in the loop at least acknowledge that the leaks might have had a positive effect is a concession from the hardline conservative, Snowden-was-wrong side, if anything.

<comment><USER5> I welcome Eric Holder's honesty as well. It sets a good precedent for more (current and former) officials to come out and say, "these disclosures actually empowered the American people."

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> But can the USG be trusted to keep their word?

<comment><USER7> Can Holden? ... if there's some reason for a "deal", then there must be something important (in easily copied digital form) that he still holds as leverage.

<comment><USER6> I don't know why you are being downvoted as I think this is a legit question.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> > Holder said "we are in a different place as a result of the Snowden > disclosures" and that "his actions spurred a necessary debate" that prompted > President Obama and Congress to change policies on the bulk collection of > phone records of American citizens.

Hmm. "We stepped up and fixed all the problems, so there is no need to continue the debate." I guess at face value it's kind of nice to say, but it doesn't carry a lot of weight since it's not an official statement. The current AG spokesperson is quoted, "I can say our position regarding bringing Edward Snowden back to the United States to face charges has not changed." It doesn't exactly contradict striking a deal, but it doesn't sound very open to doing so.

> informal discussions of... a plea bargain in which Snowden returns to the > United States, pleads guilty to one felony count and receives a prison > sentence of three to five years in exchange for full cooperation with the > government.

Seems problematic. What is "full cooperation" \-- enumerating all docs? What if they say they don't believe him and the deal is off? Does he have to agree to discrediting himself in order to get people to put less stock in anything attributed to the "Snowden disclosures"? Publicly thank them for the aforementioned policy changes and shed tears saying it's exactly what he set out to do -- we can stop pushing for more change?

<comment><USER5> > "We stepped up and fixed all the problems, so there is no need to continue > the debate."

Interesting take. When I read Holder's quotes, "we are in a different place as a result of the Snowden disclosures" and "his actions spurred a necessary debate", I got the sense he was acknowledging progress we'd made as a society. He didn't seem to imply the debates or reforms were over though.

<comment><USER3> Well, it's a cynical take, influenced by my cynical (and, admittedly, kind of ignorant) view of the USA FREEDOM Act, which I presume is a major part of the "different place" Holder is referring to. In many ways its purpose is by definition to bring us back to the same place by restoring expired laws. People like natsec whistleblowers, ACLU, and EFF don't seem to think the passed version does much -- a small symbolic victory at best. Personally I worry the gov't and media's labeling it as "reform" will contribute to fading interest in the public. Holder could be nudging that propaganda here. So yeah, I am reading too much into what he said, but that's sort of my reasoning for it.

To be fair, I am not sure how I would define meaningful reform, but I think it needs to do more than USA FREEDOM. I could be missing some other progress, too?

<comment><USER5> Holder's actual quote was so short in the article, it's hard to know exactly what he was referring to. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> A full unconditional pardon from Obama would be more appropriate.

<comment><USER9> Seems unlikely, considering Obama's stance on surveillance and his stance on leakers and whistleblowers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Is part of the deal to "never speak about NSA again for the rest of his life" or something like that? I doubt he would take it then, nor should he.

In the meantime, those who leak to Wikileaks will apparently face execution - so how much can we really trust the US government on this?

[http://alexanderhiggins.com/us-military-warns-personnel- cont...](http://alexanderhiggins.com/us-military-warns-personnel-contacting- wikileaks-assange-face-execution/)

Also, hasn't Holder quit already?

</comment><comment><USER11> Snowden is in Russia right now. Chances of him coming back to US in the current climate are next to nil. That's probably part of why they don't mind putting this on the table - Snowden can't take it.

</comment><comment><USER12> This is a duplicate. This was submitted earlier here [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9842389](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9842389)

</comment><comment><USER13> so are they afraid that snowden could reveal even more secrets and thus compromising their "tailored access" capabilities?</comment>


Ask HN: How to Build Likeable Product? - <AUTHOR> I have failed multiple times to build a successful product.<p>What are the solutions, tricks, and methods you are using to build a likeable product? <comment><USER2> No tricks, work with users, show them often, get constant feedback and learnings.

Build, measure, learn. Also solve a real and important pain.

Try solution oriented thinking, as opposed to product.</comment>


iPad Pro - <AUTHOR> https://www.apple.com/ipad/ <comment><USER2> What's new about this is that Apple is __FINALLY __listening to its power iPad users!

Apple introduced a Files app that essentially works like the Finder app on Mac. Moreover it even allows you to sync with third party cloud providers besides just iCloud. Lastly, it's putting in an actual dock, multiple window layouts, easy copy paste.

I think it's a real game changer and all of these are features that I've been truly looking forward to. It's almost like a turning point in my mind. It's crossed the threshold to where iOS can indeed act as a laptop/desktop replacement for a huge number of people.

Also, in response to a sibling comment on this thread; I don't think it'll be too long now before we see full blown app development on iPads as well.

<comment><USER3> Wow, give them 5 more years and they will catch up to where the Surface is now!

<comment><USER4> It is interesting to watch two companies converging on to the same product space, I suggested to Panos that my choice between updating an iPad or getting a new Surface would be whether or not they include LTE connectivity in the Surface.

The thing Microsoft still doesn't seem to internalize is that 'wifi only' is a disqualifying feature for many people they would like to convert.

<comment><USER5> In the past I've been adamant on buying the LTE+Wifi iPads (because more options right?). In hindsight however, the cellular feature was barely used.

Have you considered an LTE mobile hotspot? It can be left charged (but off) in your laptop bag for days/weeks and only used for travel or as needed. I found it to be super useful and not much hassle at all. Also multiple devices can connect rather simply.

Lastly, a benefit of this sort of decoupling, is it allows for using a different network carrier to the mobile phone, thus effectively increasing one's LTE coverage.

<comment><USER4> I try a lot of stuff. I'm on my fourth iPad, second Surface Pro, my third Macbook Pro, my fourth ThinkPad. I have also had a Newton, Palm Pilot (various), Handspring, Nook (ebook), and Android tablets (most interesting being a 13" one from Lenovo with a built in projector)

I use the Verizon LTE network on my iPad pro _all the time._ When I'm on the train, when I'm travelling hither and yon. I don't browse/read/search on my phone (which I use for actually calling and texting people). Not saying that I represent a typical consumer but I certainly represent at least a cohort of 1 consumers :-).

I had a MiFi for a while (company purchased), but found it consistently had lower performance then the native networking of my iPad and it was easy to lose if I wasn't paying attention. Twice I encountered times when it wasn't charged when I needed it. On analyzing it overall I found that because it wasn't forced to be charged when I charged my laptop/tablet, it suffered from sometimes being missed when it needed to be charged. That the radio is by definition charged when the iPad is charged avoids that failure mode for me.

When travelling with my SPro4 I would sometimes 'hot spot' it to my tablet. Awkward but it works. In the inversion that I still marvel about the software availability on the iPad has always been better than the availability of software on the SPro4.

The SPro4 has a better (to my taste) drawing experience than the iPad Pro does. And both the iPad Pro and SPro4 are way better than previous stylus attempts on capacitive screens.

The iPad has a much better 'tablet only' experience for me, and a much worse 'docked' experience. SPro4 with a Surface Dock and a couple of UHD monitors is literally indistinguishable from the NUC i7 box I use as a desktop. There is nothing (yet) that I can attach to my iPad Pro to make it work like a Macbook Pro (I know I know, different OS, processor etc.)

As a result I create more in general on my SPro4, consume more on my iPad Pro. I travel with my iPad in my hand and my SPro in my backpack.

Clearly I have been unable to leave one behind and just use the other so there is some more convergence to go :-)

<comment><USER6> What are your LTE costs per GB? It hasn't caught on in Australia; you pay about $30AUD a month for about 5GB of total data traffic. If you have 5 devices you usually can't share it either so you either have to swap a lot of SIMs or that's $150 a month one for each.

<comment><USER7> In the US pretty much all carriers have moved to shared data plans where you can get a pool of data to share between all devices on the plan, which can include other family members.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> They have __deprecated __the whole idea of RAM as a spec. At[https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/specs/](https://www.apple.com/ipad- pro/specs/), they only list "capacity" (of 64GB, 256GB, 512GB), and have no mention of RAM anywhere. Interesting. I guess they are viewing RAM versus persistent flash memory as just another level of tiering/caching, and believe their swap is so good that it all blends together.

<comment><USER9> I don't think Apple has ever displayed the amount of RAM on iOS-family product pages.

<comment><USER10> Same. Usually it takes one of the companies that open up new products seeing what kind of RAM is on the logic board to know what a device has.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The thing that I hung onto during this part of the Keynote was that I have never seen anyone use an iPad laying flat on a table like that. Not only ergonomically that's bad (for your neck) most of the time I'm using mine on one knee kicking back on the couch or in bed.

A lot of the gestures they showed for multitasking require multiple fingers on both hands, so you can't also be holding the device.

I suppose with it propped up via a kickstand it might work fine, it just looked awkward to me to be fully flat like that. I also don't draw on an iPad so maybe I'm just not the target user for that orientation.

<comment><USER12> I use my 12" iPad Pro flat a lot, mostly for taking notes in meetings using the pencil or drawing diagrams. It's no different to using pen and paper in terms of neck angles and the like.

I do find myself using the pencil for stuff you'd do with a finger (clicking buttons etc.) as well as writing/drawing though, maybe in subconscious deference to those ergonomic issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Model numbers please(!). I know there already was an iPad Pro, and now there's another iPad Pro. Is this the iPad PRO version 11 then (to correspond with the IOS version it was released for), or iPad PRO version 2017 (the year it was released)? Or is it version 2 or 3?

Microsoft appears to be doing the same thing with their Surface Pro, so it's not just Apple.

Look at Lenovo's site, e.g. for an X1 Carbon, and it tells you we're now on Gen 5. Thank you, Lenovo. And Dell doesn't try to hide that their latest XPS 15 is the 9560. Thank you, Dell.

<comment><USER14> I think they do fine with simple year numbers. The silly "air" and "pro" monikers seem to be confusing them. They seem to want to sunset the "air" qualifier, but they just refreshed it's CPU. I wish they would move back to a standard hardware set. Have their ultrabooks named one thing and keep them up to date. Do the same for the pro and desktop lines.

<comment><USER15> The problem with displaying year numbers is that it becomes an embarrassment when they let a product languish for oh...3 years or so

<comment><USER13> On the flip side, maybe they wouldn't let that happen again, then. :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This will steer more users from a platform where you can run whatever you want (macOS) to a platform where you can run whatever Apple lets you (iOS). If it's not self evident why this is bad then -- as I did with the recent Windows S, Amiga X5000 announcements -- let me dig up my seven year old blog post trying to explain why this is very bad [http://drupal4hu.com/future/freedom](http://drupal4hu.com/future/freedom)

And no, this is not an "Apple is evil" rant, it's simply they are making more money this way.

</comment><comment><USER17> Felt I saw somewhere. Felt like MS Surface Pro. Good job MS. You've come a long way.

<comment><USER18> I just got a Surface and it's unsettling how nice it feels and works. Like it shouldn't be a MS product.

<comment><USER19> I have been using Linux as my primary OS for probably 10 years now, and I still love the Surface Pro. I bought a Surface Pro 1 the week they came out. I think the Surface lineup is one of the best lines of computers _ever_.

I'm incredibly conflicted, because I need a new portable computer, and I love the Surface, but I do not love Microsoft.

<comment><USER20> Is it possible to run Linux on a Surface Book? I'd really love to have the large detachable screen to read PDFs, but I'd really prefer to be able to use actual Linux as opposed to WSL Linux.

Alternatively, are there any other laptops like the Surface Book (i.e., have a detachable touch screen) that work with Linux?

<comment><USER21> Here's an evergreen post with the "current status": [https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/curren...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/comments/6eau79/current_state_of_surfaces/)

TL;DR: You can install and run it, but touch, pen, and the dGPU do not work, which makes it kind of pointless compared to e.g. an XPS 13.

<comment><USER19> Which is one of the reasons I'm considering an XPS 13 over a Surface.

I actually like touch screens, but they do not work well in Linux. I didn't 'get' Windows 8 until I got my Surface, and I really enjoy using the touch screen when browsing the web and just screwing around with my computer. Touch/pen is a lot more convenient than any other mouse replacement while on the go.

I will be surprised if the Linux community does anything meaningful with touch in the next 5 years though.

As for WiFi, I hate how finicky it is, but it isn't really the developers fault. I spent an entire week trying to get a "Linux compatible" WiFi dongle working before I gave up and returned it. The drivers had been written for Linux 4.1 or maybe even 3.xx. Once I took care of all of the errors and got the driver to compile, I learned that the USB 3.0 version never worked on Linux, despite the fact that the manufacturer had compiled a driver.

At least every new install of Linux doesn't start from the command line, unless you are looking for a distro like that.

<comment><USER21> I totally agree. I actually love both Linux and my Surface, but I would never put Linux _on_ the Surface, for exactly that reason. Touch-friendliness is one of those things that's just going to take a while on Linux if it comes at all: a lot of the people who might contribute tend to be the same sort of people who turn up their noses at touch interfaces on a desktop OS.

As for the WiFi, that's probably more Microsoft's fault. For some reason they insist on using these godawful Marvell chipsets for all the Surfaces. Users have been yelling at them to pick anything else, but it hasn't stuck.

<comment><USER19> The Marvell chipsets are awful, this is true. However, I think the only 802.11ac chipset that currently works with Linux is Intel, since Atheros hasn't been Linux-friendly ever since they were bought out by Qualcomm.

As far as I'm aware, there are no WiFi dongles that support 802.11AC. I think your only option is internal. So if you want to connect to a 802.11ac network on a Linux desktop your only option is connecting through a wired connection with a bridged 802.11ac router or something.

I don't _personally_ mind, but I do think it's bad for the adoption of Linux. Most people I know only have Laptops, and if people can't get their WiFi working they aren't going to use Linux.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> A shame to see there's no update to the iPad mini. For casual users, it's not so useful any more, with the larger iPhones of today, but it's very useful for professional and business use in cases where space/size is a constraint, and an iPhone isn't warranted.

The app we develop has quite a few users on iPad minis. Apart from the fact that it's only for iPad, I don't think we would get many users moving to using an iPhone, firstly because of cost, and secondly because it's just a bit too small.

<comment><USER23> I'm dying for a Mini with Pencil support. I want a digital Moleskine.

If "iPads seen in the wild" are anything to go by, they're still the best- selling model, too. My best guess is that the usability gurus have decided that it's just no good for "getting work done," and they're willing to sacrifice some sales to get more professional traction.

<comment><USER14> They really are a great size. Pretty much the portability of an iPhone with plenty of screen. But since it's not my phone I don't have to take it everywhere.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> At some point I would have expected that one could develop iOS apps on the iPad Pro itself (without a computer). Not yet, apparently.

<comment><USER25> That, to me, is one of the defining features of a general-purpose computer. Can I develop software for it, with it?

Perhaps it might not be pleasant, if the hardware isn't very powerful - looking at 20 lines of code on a netbook screen, or waiting for the serial communication to catch up to my terminal on the embedded board - but it makes it a tool with which you can do real work. Tablets and phones don't count yet.

Edit: Yes, I am aware of the SSH clients, with which you can connect to a remote server, do the development there, and download the resulting app. But the remote server is the general-like computer there, just as the PC running the terminal is not the primary machine in some embedded development.

<comment><USER12> Pythonista comes pretty close without being "Xcode for iPad". You can develop apps using it, which can have icons on the home screen.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm skeptical about the tablet.

I went on a trip last week and left my workhorse macbook pro at home for the first time on a trip and brought my iPad mini.

It just isn't that useful for dealing with photos taken with a separate camera. It was nice for browsing the web but that was pretty much it. I couldn't work on my learning new graphical js on my downtime, not beat making (ableton). The iphone was great on the trip while on the go.

It just doesn't feel like a creative device. Even though the pencil is amazing, I just don't see it.

<comment><USER27> >It just isn't that useful for dealing with photos taken with a separate camera.

I recently went on a trip with no laptop -- only my "real" camera, my iPhone, and a Western Digital MyPassport Wireless Pro: [https://www.wdc.com/products/portable-storage/my-passport- wi...](https://www.wdc.com/products/portable-storage/my-passport-wireless- pro.html)

It worked out surprisingly well. I mainly bought the MyPassport for the extra storage space so I didn't have to bring a million SD cards, but it also worked well as a backup battery pack for the phone, and for transferring a few of those images to the phone for immediate access. Admittedly, I shot in RAW + JPEG and the app only recognizes the JPEGs (from what I could tell quickly) but it was good enough for the few photos I wanted to share right away after taking them.

I don't have an iPad but I've been considering one just for photo editing with the pencil. I hear Lightroom on iPads is getting better, and I just got an e-mail today about Affinity Photo being released for iPad.

But yeah, consider the WD MyPassport if transferring/storing photos without a true laptop was a problem.

<comment><USER26> thanks for the tip, that drive seems useful for backing stuff up on the go.

I tried the wireless sd cards at one point, but it gets hard as the photos get pretty big and the interface never worked quite right.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, the wireless SD cards were a nightmare. Case in point: [https://petapixel.com/2016/06/30/eye-fi-brick-older-wi-fi- ca...](https://petapixel.com/2016/06/30/eye-fi-brick-older-wi-fi-cards- photographer-arent-happy/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I wonder what the pencil means for Wacom? It looks fantastic, and from my naive perspective looks like it'd be just as capable as a high end Wacom tablet. Any artists here who can chime in?

<comment><USER29> I haven't tried iPad Pro nor Microsoft Surface, but Wacom has a texture on the surface which makes a lot of difference when drawing and painting. Even Cintiq has a layer of that on it. Even if they've solved 'drawing on glass' (which should be shit compared to textured surface), there's still that whole issue of proper apps to draw in compared to iOS.

<comment><USER30> Some screen protectors add a bit of grip, so it feels more like paper and less like glass under the pen.

<comment><USER14> reference?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> At second 47 in the film[0] he is trying to draw a circle and instead gets this very angular polygon:

[1] [http://imgur.com/a/J91OZ](http://imgur.com/a/J91OZ)

[0] [https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/](https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/)

Is that really the best that state of the art can do?

<comment><USER32> The 12.9" iPad Pro + Pencil + 60hz app works very well with no behavior like that. My guess is that it's a beta iOS issue because there seems to be a lot of churn with major iOS versions when it comes to the pencil. Apps usually have to do some kind of update to address whatever Apple has done each time around.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I'm really interested in this, but at roughly £950 for the 256GB model including keyboard and pencil, can I use it for full time web development?

<comment><USER34> I use my iPad Pro for development ALL the time.

Two ways I get it done: 1\. ssh into a remote vm in the cloud and use that. Emacs (or vim if you are that kind of person ;) ), tmux, and zsh shell are all I really need.

2\. Use Coda or another on device editor. This one is a little harder as it's not quite as good as you desktop editors like VS.Code or Atom. That said I do it often and enjoy the experience.

<comment><USER35> That's a bit expensive for a glorified thin client.

<comment><USER36> That implies this is it's only use...

<comment><USER37> The question asked was about using the iPad pro to code.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> To balance out the negativity here's my anecdotal input - the iPad Pro has had more impact on my creativity than any device I can remember, and it's almost entirely due to the pencil and how it's brought drawing back into my life.

That's not even counting it's usefulness for music making, etc.

I've never seen it as a replacement for desktop software - it's a different class with different user behaviors. I'm generally bullish on the form factor over the long term, and see no reason why it needs to be a zero sum game between tablet and desktop.

</comment><comment><USER39> Without a sharing file system,you are forced to implement file syncing in almost every productivity app. It is madness.

</comment><comment><USER40> I _really_ wish they would have brought Files to the iPhone as well. Actually, many of the features they demoed for the iPad would be very welcome on the iPhone.

<comment><USER41> I have the iOS 11 beta on my iPhone and the Files app is definitely here and working as expected.

<comment><USER40> I have searched all day[0] for evidence of it and didn't see anything. I am very glad you came in and said it is there. That is so good to know.

[0] Well, during meetings...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I have a the 12" with a pen since it came out. Really wanted to use it for taking notes, but then I remember my handwriting is complete chicken scratch. It did find a nice place as a tool for doing wireframes of the UI for my current startup for PLM. Also I will say I have gotten used to the split screen. It is nice to watch a video and also open the web browser or email. Looks like IOS 11 makes this even better. The iPad was not a replacement for my MacBook Pro. Speaking of which, 16GB on MacBooks now. Going to order one ASAP. I travel so weight and size is the most important thing (besides the fact I need 16GB). At home or work I just jack into the thunderbolt port for monitor, keyboard, mouse and network.

</comment><comment><USER43> The file manager is better late than never. My real question is what will text editing look like?

The lack of a cursor on iPad makes something like programming or writing on the iPad insanely frustrating. Have you ever tried selecting a precise amount of text with your finger?

<comment><USER44> On the iPad you can drag two fingers over the keyboard to move the cursor around. When you have text selected, two finger dragging on the top half moves the left side of the selection and the bottom the opposite. It's a very useful gesture.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Is there way to do a dual screen setup with this?

<comment><USER46> As an additional screen to a mac, yes, there are severals apps for that, however they all require 3rd party kernel drivers on the mac so they will most likely break on major updates and they will probably be discontinued at some point.

They work reasonably well for web browsing and development, but I would not use them for photo or video stuff.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Still waiting for xcode on iOS

<comment><USER48> Yeah, no kidding. "iPad Pro" and I can't even design iOS Apps? Please.

<comment><USER49> there are lots of kinds of pros, not only sw dev, you know. Then again, I'm a sw dev and I'd like to develop software on it, so maybe one day

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I wonder where iPad line will be in few years. Personally I don't see a reason to use an iPad over my macbook, but if this trend continues, then it might be a reasonable pc replacement for most users.

<comment><USER51> iPad sales are down by half (in unit terms) compared with its peak. Android tablet sales are down as well.

From his previous remarks (Why would you buy a PC? etc), Tim Cook seems to want everyone to move to iOS, and the neglect of the Mac line seems to support that idea. But he's yet to show he can move the market in that direction....

<comment><USER51> _Apple posted its first full-year iPad sales dip in fiscal 2014. Unit sales slipped 4% that year, while revenue fell 5%. The sales declines accelerated thereafter. In fiscal 2015, unit sales plunged 19% and revenue dropped by 23%. In fiscal 2016, unit sales fell another 17%, while revenue tumbled 11%. Double-digit declines along both metrics continued in the first quarter of fiscal 2017. The net result is that Apple shipped just 42.6 million iPads during the 2016 calendar year, down about 40% from the peak a few years ago._ [https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/19/is-the-ipad- dead.a...](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/19/is-the-ipad-dead.aspx)

Apple Quietly Acknowledges the iPad's Staggering Decline [http://fortune.com/2017/03/21/apple-ipad- decline/](http://fortune.com/2017/03/21/apple-ipad-decline/)

It's been two and a half years of decline – tablets aren't coming back [https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/05/tablets_arent_comin...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/05/tablets_arent_coming_back/)

 _In an interview with The Telegraph, Cook said, "I think if you're looking at a PC, why would you buy a PC anymore? No really, why would you buy one?" He continued: "Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones."_ [http://uk.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-why- would-y...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-why-would-you- buy-a-pc-anymore-2015-11?r=UK&IR=T)

Has Apple lost interest in the Mac? [http://macdailynews.com/2016/09/11/has- apple-lost-interest-i...](http://macdailynews.com/2016/09/11/has-apple-lost- interest-in-the-mac/)

Has Apple Lost Interest in the Mac? [http://www.kirkville.com/has-apple-lost- interest-in-the-mac/](http://www.kirkville.com/has-apple-lost-interest-in-the- mac/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting that the Ars coverage ([https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/06/apple-introduces-a- red...](https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/06/apple-introduces-a- redesigned-10-5-inch-ipad-pro/)) is the new hotness but the Apple web site is the 'old' iPad Pro.

<comment><USER4> ... and after a couple of cdn cache flushes its up with the latest and greatest.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Did anyone notice any mention of Apple's new File system in iOS 11 for the iPad Pro ? I stepped out of the keynote for 5 mins and probably missed the announcement. Apple homepage isn't updated with the new model details yet.

<comment><USER53> APFS is already out in the latest versions of iOS 10.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> What's the difference between this newer iPad pro and the original iPad pro?

<comment><USER55> 10.5" screen, better screen, new chip, configurations start with more ram.

<comment><USER56> This was rumored to have a 10X chip, but the site says 9X. Is that accurate or did they forget to update the website?

<comment><USER57> It's a 10X -- the A10X Fusion to be exact (6-core). It also has a 12-core GPU.

<comment><USER56> Sweet, thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> It's funny how almost all announced pencil features have been available on Galaxy Note devices for years (Apple even copied the lock-screen note feature. It seems that somebody at Apple got to use a Galaxy Note.

<comment><USER27> I had a Note 2, then a Note 4, then switched to iPhone, and the stylus is the only thing I miss, so if they are stealing that from the Note series, I'm totally fine with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Is it just me, or does the one on the left look weirdly skewed, like the right side is bigger than the left side?

Uncharacteristic design mistake for Apple...

<comment><USER60> It's just you.

<comment><USER59> Really? I wonder if this is some sort of optical illusion like the dress? I can't imagine Apple releasing a skewed product photo, but I can't see anything but a trapezoid when I look at that iPad on the left...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> To me this doesn't look like iPad taking on the surface so much as ipad taking on the surface and Chromebooks.

</comment><comment><USER62> Apple is trying to made ipad become a laptop by adding keyboard, pen, upgrading iOS (files app, drop-n-drag). It is funny because most people will go to work with a Mac/PC. Why should Apple try to make iPad become a Pc?

It is so late because Microsoft has Surface pro which runs windows long time ago. It is funny to see Apple adding file app, drag-n-drop features as improvements.

<comment><USER63> I actually think this is a major advantage for Apple.

While Microsoft is trying to pare down their desktop system while maintaining legacy code, Apple is able to add core features based on usage and demand. The iPad and Mac are like testing grounds for each other where both OSes can borrow good aspects from the other. Sometimes it's easier to start from scratch and rethink the fundamentals rather than modifying existing ideas under constraints of the old paradigm.

Apple has MacOS already as a "fallback". If Microsoft one day realizes that Apple's tablet interface is the way to go, they would be seriously behind.

<comment><USER37> Actually it's the other way around.

Under jobs, Apple has vision clarity, iOS was going to be primarily consumptive, and MacOS was production. The two were not to meet.

MSFT on the other hand had grown too many OSes to deal with capably, an example being that xbox, windows, windows CE all had their own implementation of TCP (iirc).

So MS decides to fix their architecture, unifying and ordering all implementations. It's a huge under taking.

Apple without jobs is meandering towards the same ideas. But iOS is not designed for these use cases. The iPad Pro and Mac OS will not converge. The best that the iPad Pro will become is a power android variant.

Microsoft will keep making surface and surface like devices, which will be not face that limitation.

If anything, Apple will have to imitate the entire Microsoft style, and include a touch screen on the mac, along with stylus support.

Their product vision is lost without jobs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Still no multiuser capabilities. Truly disappointing.

Not upgrading. Not interested.

</comment><comment><USER65> "It's lit."

I love Apple trying to relate to young people

<comment><USER66> Oh no, they didn't say this did they?

I recently saw Ken Bone tweet "Savage" in a serious context. It's funny how fast 'youth'/'urban' culture is being swallowed up by mainstream typically out-of-touch demographics.

But I guess it's all part of this obsession with authenticity recently. This puts a lot of pressure on the youth to adapt quickly and develop new slang.

Not sure I feel comfortable with this development though. I'd rather be okay with big corporate marketing firms not being lame by using old slang, focusing on interesting but neutral copy, rather than them constantly keeping up with the latest slang and memes to seem in touch with 'millennials'.

They should know how defeating this feels to people 'in the know' aka people who pioneer what is cool.

<comment><USER65> It's in the fake text message conversation, with the break-dancing fellow.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> Whenever I see the ipad pro I remember this cartoon about Ballmer, cracks me up every time. [http://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface- tension/](http://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface-tension/)

<comment><USER68> Brilliant. There's a lot going on in those three frames.

<comment><USER69> especially when you look at the dates.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> Heh, i give them a year or two before they retire the imac range completely.

</comment><comment><USER71> Useless OS. Will be getting a Surface.

</comment><comment><USER72> Looks like the iOS 11 site it totally broken though: [https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-11-preview/](https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-11-preview/)

The images make little sense. And then I got to the point where paragraphs referenced photo animations and the images were still, and realized they probably wanted to make some fancy animation that's not working on firefox.

I tried on chromium, and then on Safari on my iPhone. Same results. Not sure if they screwed up or what, but even the "Live Photos" images are stills that make no sense.

<comment><USER73> Looks perfectly fine on Safari for macOS as well as Safari for iPhone.

Maybe you just have a crap internet connection and can't download the video animations?

<comment><USER72> I don't have access to any machines with macOS, but I tried:

        * Firefox on Linux
        * Chromium on Linux
        * Firefox on iOS
        * Safari on iOS

I didn't work on any yesterday. It works on Firefox today. They probably fixed it at some point since my initial comment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> I imagine Steve Jobs is turning over in his grave right about now.

</comment><comment><USER75> "If you see a stylus, they blew it." -Steve Jobs

<comment><USER76> This lazy out-of-context meme needs to die

[https://www.quora.com/Was-Steve-Jobs-right-when-he-said- that...](https://www.quora.com/Was-Steve-Jobs-right-when-he-said-that-if-you- see-a-stylus-they-blew-it)

<comment><USER77> This appears to be revisionist history. Jobs saw phone interfaces via stylus, noted they sucked, concluded that interacting with a handheld device with a stylus sucks on principal. You can agree or disagree but it seems nonsensical to try to add words to inject your own context to revise history to render jobs correct if you don't think the original statement as given was correct.

Further that link commits the usual sin of ascribing the invention of tech that apple popularized to apple for no reason. Multitouch and gestures goes back to the 80s see

[https://inventhelp.com/archives/11-12/inventhelp- newsletter-...](https://inventhelp.com/archives/11-12/inventhelp-newsletter- november-2012/who-invented-multitouch)

Quora is kind of a low value source. I would refute author on quora but they want access to read and manage my google contacts to create an account. Kind of one step up from malware I'm pretty sure they intend to use it to spam my contacts.

<comment><USER76> The context any statement is made in is very important and can't be ignored. At the time, we all remember the touchscreen devices that were popular. They had tiny little UI elements and basically required a stylus to interact with them.

I would make a slight but important modification to your second sentence:

        concluded that interacting with a handheld device's *UI* with a stylus
        sucks on principal.

That still holds. It's not a fair interpretation to think that Jobs considered having an _optional_ stylus a failure.

I agree with respect to Quora in general, but that link summed up my feelings on the subject so I included it instead of writing it out myself.

<comment><USER78> > The context any statement is made in is very important and can't be ignored

The fact that Jobs said this can't be ignored: he would diss anything Apple did not (yet) have without needing a better reason than making Apple look good. He's the man who said "No one wants 'Hummer' 5-inch phones" (remember when that counted as huge?) and "You will need to file down your fingers to use 7-inch tablets" yet 3.5-inch iPhones could handle full-sized fingers just fine. I still remember the bogus[1] comparison shared by Apple fans that showed 3.5 inches as the perfect size for thumb reachability.

As you know Apple later entered those product categories without Apple adding anything significant to the formula.

1\. Bogus because the phone sizes were not to scale. The thumb radius was larger on the smaller iPhone.

<comment><USER76> Fair point. I also remember Apple saying black and white screens were somehow superior to color. (Could be apocryphal)

FWIW, I use an iPhone SE because I still think the 5" phones are too annoying to use in one hand.

But yes, Apple has done this. I think the stylus thing has been beaten to death already, and I should have known better to be baited into a comment thread that isn't very useful anyway.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Apple deleted a job listing that hints at plans to cut Qualcomm and Intel chips - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-deleted-job-listing-shows-plans-design-5g-modem-2018-4 <comment><USER2> Are we sure they didn't just... hire someone?

<comment><USER3> They could have certainly put out the job posting for visa reasons :)

[http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=APPLE+INC&job=&city=&year=2...](http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=APPLE+INC&job=&city=&year=2017)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The amount of extrapolation seems a bit extreme - one deleted job opening shouldn't mean anything. But I guess in the age of clickbait journalism everything goes.

<comment><USER5> If you consider just this one data point yes, it may seem far-fetched. But if you connect it with all the other data points from all the other rumors, then whose to say it's over reaction?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Sort of related:

For a while now I've been thinking that a product that helps you monitor your competitor's job postings could be pretty interesting. Anyone here find value in that concept? It wouldn't be for finding a job necessarily, but instead to keep a pulse on the potential health/direction of those in your niche.

<comment><USER7> I often check the job listings of competitors to see what they are up to, so using this as part of a "what are these companies up to" (patent filings, job listings, various updates) would be good. It's a hard problem because some companies generate a lot of noise (unenlightening press), or some companies are large so have lots to talk about in areas that don't matter to me, but typically most startups generate so _little_ noise that simply sending me 100% of new news, website changes etc would be useful.

<comment><USER6> Thanks for the reply! Would you be at all interested in chatting a bit more via email about this?

<comment><USER7> sure, address in my profile

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I mean, of course they are. I guarantee Apple is considering moving every aspect of their products in house. They'll end up keeping a lot of them external, but they look at all of it.

<comment><USER9> Indeed. It strains reason to think that a company with cash reserves the size of Apple's wasn't at least exploring the possibility of making their own radios. Hiring a few experts on a moonshot project is cheap relative to the benefits if it pays off. It's likely Google has a similar group.

Whether they produce hardware or not is an open question though. High end RF efforts tend to fail a lot. I mean, for high end LTE we're already in a situation where there are only two serious vendors.

</comment></comment><comment> tim-- Wouldn't an organisation such as Apple (who must be one of Qualcomm's largest customers, surely...) already share design information such as this with engineers inside Apple?

This job ad to me doesn't sound like a smoking gun to get rid of Qualcomm.

<comment><USER10> > Wouldn't an organisation such as Apple (who must be one of Qualcomm's > largest customers, surely...) already share design information such as this > with engineers inside Apple?

I don't see your point, and besides, Apple silos their information so that it's only available on a need-to-know basis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> In an efficient market, companies (Intel and Qcomm in this case) would compete to produce products (5G modem) that can tailor to multiple customers for maximum volume to recoup R&D cost. This will converge in the best product at the best price.

I wonder what would be the benefit of Apple producing their own chip? Especially with the threat of "peak iPhone" looming.

<comment><USER12> The problem facing Qualcomm is that their main customer for high end modems is Apple, the units they sell to the Android manufacturers are much lower volume (at the high end) and for much less money.

Apple has noticed that if they make these advanced modems themselves, the Android ecosystem doesn't have enough profit in it to make building high end modems just for that market viable. At least, it might well force Qualcomm to design down their best modems to meet lower price points at lower volumes than they can achieve now.

This is aside from the advantages Apple would have in tailoring their hardware and software to each other, and guaranteeing they get the hardware features they need to achieve their end-user facing feature goals.

<comment><USER13> And.. if they can make them even more low power, as they have the CPU/GPU and Wireless (Bluetooth/wifi). they might get an even larger advantage on battery/performance.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Apple is now a semiconductor company.

<comment><USER15> It was a matter of time, really. They already design their own and basically own all, if not the vast majority, of the production capacity of TSMC.

<comment><USER16> Sure, Apple is TSMC's #1 customer and uses the vast majority of TSMC's latest node. But TSMC is much larger than that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> The coming 5G comes to mind. The problem with Qcom and 5G is that they do not even hide the fact that they wont to monopolize the technology through IP capture.

</comment><comment><USER18> Url changed from [https://gizmodo.com/apple-posts-deletes-job-listing-that- sou...](https://gizmodo.com/apple-posts-deletes-job-listing-that-sounds- suspicious-1825672682), which points to this.

</comment><comment><USER19> With no experience rolling subscriber access silicon or MMIC this is likely to have comedic results.

<comment><USER20> Steve Ballmer agrees wholeheartedly.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U)

<comment><USER18> Please don't post flamebait.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> That's cool, but not for me.

I didn't buy Apple products before they went x86, and I won't buy any after, either.

<comment><USER22> Looking at the article - this is related to the Cellular modems in their telephones as opposed to the CPUs running in their Macintoshes.

Judging by Apple's success in creating powerful low energy ARM processors I'd be quite interested in seeing how they can do in designing their own 4/5G modems.</comment></comment>


One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/05/04/one-space-between-each-sentence-they-said-science-just-proved-them-wrong-2/ <comment><USER2> Discussion is here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005686](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005686)

Previous submissions, some with comments, here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005472](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005472)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005247](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17005247) (1 comment)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004639](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004639)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004222](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17004222) (1 comment)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17002396](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17002396)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16999962](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16999962) (3 comments)</comment>