People Who Are Obsessed with Success and Prestige - <AUTHOR> https://www.bennettnotes.com/post/obsessed-with-success-and-prestige/ <comment><USER4> From David Brooks:

"I've been thinking about the difference between the résumé virtues and the eulogy virtues. The résumé virtues are the ones you list on your résumé, the skills that you bring to the job market and that contribute to external success. The eulogy virtues are deeper. They're the virtues that get talked about at your funeral, the ones that exist at the core of your being — whether you are kind, brave, honest or faithful; what kind of relationships you formed.

Most of us would say that the eulogy virtues are more important than the résumé virtues, but I confess that for long stretches of my life I've spent more time thinking about the latter than the former. Our education system is certainly oriented around the résumé virtues more than the eulogy ones. Public conversation is, too — the self-help tips in magazines, the nonfiction bestsellers. Most of us have clearer strategies for how to achieve career success than we do for how to develop a profound character."

Maybe we'd all do better to be focused on those 'eulogy virtues' rather than obsessing over our external success. For me at least, it's a constant battle to hold back the pull of the weasel trying to measure myself against external validation.

<comment><USER5> Cusins. By the way, have you any religion?

Undershaft. Yes.

Cusins. Anything out of the common?

Undershaft. Only that there are two things necessary to Salvation.

Cusins [disappointed, but polite] Ah, the Church Catechism. Baptism and —

Undershaft. No. Money and gunpowder.

Cusins [surprised, but interested] That is the general opinion of our governing classes. The novelty is in hearing any man confess it.

Undershaft. Just so.

Cusins. Excuse me: is there any place in your religion for honor, justice, truth, love, mercy and so forth?

Undershaft. Yes: they are the graces and luxuries of a rich, strong, and safe life.

Cusins. Suppose one is forced to choose between them and money or gunpowder?

Undershaft. Choose money and gunpowder; for without enough of both you cannot afford the others.

Cusins. That is your religion?

Undershaft. Yes.

([https://opentextbc.ca/englishliterature/chapter/major- barbar...](https://opentextbc.ca/englishliterature/chapter/major-barbara-act- ii/))

<comment><USER6> As someone with a seminary background, this hits too close to home

"Cusins. Excuse me: is there any place in your religion for honor, justice, truth, love, mercy and so forth?

Undershaft. Yes: they are the graces and luxuries of a rich, strong, and safe life."

<comment><USER7> I hold the old view that justice is a source of strength rather than something bought independent of it.

There is honor even among thieves. For example, a just group of thieves splits the bounty and return to steal together again as a team with improved skill, trust and cohesion. Sure they are scoundrels to their community, but they are just with each other. If they weren't, they'd in-fight and become weaker. This is true of militias and painfully obvious when two groups of forces lose faith, trust and a sense of justice with each other.

So I think justice is a virtue, and I think it's safe to say virtue is a source of strength.

<comment><USER6> Average-wise, would you think majority of humanity fits within this view?

I was born in a 3rd world country, grew up there and now live in a 1st world country. I think in many 3rd world countries, a lot of small time criminals and prostitutes did that because they have no other choice. They have no good jobs, or any jobs. They have no home, no family, no means to pay for their sick children or families. Not saying that people who have those still won't steal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This post also resonated with me, especially the quote from /r/cscareerquestions

> Got an awesome internship at an interesting company? Well, it wasn't FAANG, > so who cares? Got a FAANG internship? Well it wasn't one of the good FAANGs, > so if you really think about it, you really didn't accomplish anything. Got > into a "Good FAANG"? Well, the other intern works on his own startup idea > when he goes home. Why aren't you working on your startup idea? Do you even > have a startup idea? Are you even trying?

It's absolutely not limited to new engineers. Take a look at the replies to the "Levels.fyi Annual Report" here on HN.

> You can't move to the US/SF/NYC? Good luck eeking out a living. You didn't > get an offer from a FAANG? Well, you don't really belong in the bay area > then. You got a FAANG offer but you didn't negotiate 400k+ total comp? Good > luck ever getting a raise. You made it to the top of your salary band? Well, > they'll never move you up, better plan your exit now.

The tech rat race mentality is very real and very pervasive.

<comment><USER9> I've noticed something about subreddits that focus on lifestyle design and center around advice: they all start to converge on fairly narrow groupthink. /r/personalfinance is all about super frugal living and passive investing. In /r/backpacking, the general advice is to go as light as possible and spend money reducing weight. /r/cscareerquestions is about the leetcode grind and getting into FAANG. /r/malefashionadvice only really recommends a narrow range of personal styles and is not helpful if you don't want to look like that.

Now, the advice is often pretty decent in those subs, but it's not helpful if you don't want exactly what they recommend. And they put way too much emphasis on the narrow range of things they think are worthwhile.

Anyway, back to commenting on the article:

> So why are we all doing this? Why do so many smart people fall victim to > this trap of chasing success and prestige purely for the sake of it?

Survivorship bias. There are a lot of smart people everywhere living quiet, normal lives. They don't necessarily seem that different unless you know them well, because they're not trying to rock the world with their brilliance.

In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it.

My brother and I were from a normal middle class background but both went to fancy private schools. My uncles apparently all got tested high IQs and they have thick Texan accents, they like handball and guitar and fishing. They're normal people. Their Facebook comments aren't even all that articulate. But you can tell they're intelligent because they seem to "get" things and they don't say dumb stuff.

<comment><USER10> >In fact, what we think of as "smart" does not correspond to "has high natural ability." "Smart people" are people who have decided to make their identities center around being smart. They've worked hard at it.

I would also argue it's the combination of smart and naturally outgoing or extroversion. Being extroverted seems to be naturally correlated to being successful or being a successful leader for most people. It doesn't make sense to me, other than I guess if you're your own cheerleader you're more likely to find opportunities.

<comment><USER11> Not sure about that, at least in my workplace some of the people considered the smartest and best engineers are very quite, almost shy.

<comment><USER10> I have the opposite experience. I work in higher education, at an institution full of very smart, very talented people. There's a mix of both extroverted and introverted. The extroverts are all moving up the chain, while the (generally more talented) introverts stagnate earlier in their careers.

I'm sure there's something there to study, but I'm also sure I don't know what it is.

<comment><USER9> Keep in mind "extroverted" does not mean socially skilled.

My fiancee is a social ace. She knows how to make everyone feel good and always has a big smile. She connects deeply with people.

But when she's done she has to spent the next three days binge watching The Wire to recover.

A lot of introverts are very socially skilled, they just require time to get their energy back.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> > She would say, "Dave, you only got one award this year. Remember when you > won seven last year?"

> If it wasn't that, maybe it was also because I am gay. My mother was never > really happy about this

Ah, the absolute pinnacle of neurosis parenting. That's a solid one-two punch to the child's psyche, which gives them a drive to please while at the same time ensuring it can never be met. Well done; you ensured your child would work hard forever by guaranteeing that no matter how hard they work they won't actually be happy, because they can never meet your standard for approval.

<comment><USER13> > She would say, "Dave, you only got one award this year. Remember when you > won seven last year?"

I've had stuff like this from parents.

Nothing is ever good enough, I have a friend who is massively more successful than me that I've been friends with since we were children. Went to same nursery, school and university.

When I told my parents I got a bonus one year, instead of great, well done. I got asked how much, followed by asking what bonus did my friend get (them knowing his position, that his bonus would be a couple of orders of magnitude more), seemingly, just to put me down.

I've been told by my dad, despite me having my own place and what I consider a decent job, that I failed in life as my friend has so much more money than me and a better title.

I now just don't care what my parents think.

<comment><USER14> I feel you. My parent are same way. The constant comparison and criticism has driven me anxious and depressed. I am from Pakistan, and this is pretty common for our community.

The worst part is that they went above and beyond for our education. So now I constantly hear about how they sacrificed their pleasure for us and how we are so ungrateful. They complain that I cannot take a little bit of constructive criticism. Which makes me feel even more guilty. Perhaps I am too sensitive.

I am pretty successful, more successful than most people my parents are actually friends with. I support them financially more than most of my friends. But, of course, that's not good enough for them. Lately, my mom stopped talking with me because I defended my son against their criticism.

In our culture, parents and elders are like God, we are not supposed to say anything back. From childhood, they start programming our heads with stuff like children owe so much to parents, there is heaven under mother's feet, and a lot other such sayings.

I have been to therapists for this and they all recommended that I distance myself from my parents but this is something I just cannot do. They provided food, shelter, the best education. They were there, it is not like they abandoned me. So how can I leave them.

There is a lot of support and literature about parents who abandoned their children or were physically abusive but you don't hear songs about parents who emotionally abused their kids. I don't know how to deal with this.

<comment><USER15> I drew the line with my dad when he looked down my girlfriend's shirt and said he could see why I liked her and when he made anti-Semitic remarks about the faculty at my brother's graduation. (I'm not Pakistani by birth but my mother was and my dad's grandfather migrated). It started with that sort of behavior you describe as well as misogyny. If you don't nip it in the bud now there's no telling where it will end up. This isn't the pind in Punjab (where his grandfather was from) where you can scratch your balls in public for eternity and no one will say anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "People who are excited by posthumous fame forget that the people who remember them will soon die too. And those after them in turn. Until their memory, passed from one to another like a candle flame, gutters and goes out."

Marcus Aurelius

"19\. You may be unconquerable, if you enter into no combat in which it is not in your own control to conquer. When, therefore, you see anyone eminent in honors, or power, or in high esteem on any other account, take heed not to be hurried away with the appearance, and to pronounce him happy; for, if the essence of good consists in things in our own control, there will be no room for envy or emulation. But, for your part, don't wish to be a general, or a senator, or a consul, but to be free; and the only way to this is a contempt of things not in our own control."

Epictetus

<comment><USER17> The Aurelius quote is a bit ironic since Aurelius is still remembered despite the passage of many generations.

<comment><USER18> On a long enough timeline the memory of Marcus Aurelius will extinguish.

<comment><USER19> That's a strong claim given that we don't yet fully understand the laws of physics.

<comment><USER18> It's a pretty open-ended claim, I'm happy to hear your rebuttal though if you think Marcus Auerlis will be remembered 1,000 to 1 billion+ years from now.

<comment><USER19> If humanity survives, which isn't guaranteed but has some chance, then I think it's almost certain that there will be people who care about early writers, in the same way that classicists exist today.

<comment><USER18> "On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

<comment><USER19> [https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/reports/2012-1.pdf](https://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/reports/2012-1.pdf)

> If an individual entity endures a fixed probability μ < 1 of disappearing > ("dying") in a given fixed time period, then, as time approaches infinity, > the probability of death approaches certainty. One approach to avoid this > fate is for individuals to copy themselves into different locations; if the > copies each have an independent probability of dying, then the total risk is > much reduced. However, to avoid the same ultimate fate, the entity must > continue copying itself to continually reduce the risk of death. In this > paper, we show that to get a non-zero probability of ultimate survival, it > suffices that the number of copies grows logarithmically with time. > Accounting for expected copy casualties, the required rate of copying is > hence bounded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Heh this is only a very mild version of status obsession. To a degree it's actually a good thing to want, so long as you stay committed to doing the actual work of getting successful.

What amuses me to no end is when I see a rich guy who wants to keep being in the news. As if to say "see, I actually deserve all this wealth". I've seen several of these people over the years. Somehow the media keep calling them to comment on all manner of things unrelated to their field of expertise. One guy I've seen has articles about how he's a great art lover. Then one about how his wife worked so hard to help him. Then commentary on how startups work. Then he buys a sports team. And another. And another. Everythings he does has to be in the news. Another guy is a little bit wiser about it, but also sticks his comments in where he really isn't an expert (economics, politics). Sprinkle in a bit of bragging about expensive wines and restuarants, and it just looks like an old child doing the "look at me" routine.

I really don't get it. I suppose that external validation is a huge factor for some people, something similar to substance addiction. People can't see it, but they are swapping dignity for attention.

<comment><USER21> "People can't see it, but they are swapping dignity for attention."

Nice observation, though in rare cases not necessarily true.

The thing is, as you point out, status does actually bring potentially huge benefits; People start to come to you with proposals, rather than the other way. Success/Status attracts opportunity. So to some extent we're hardwired to strive for it.

<comment><USER22> What does that have to do with dignity? Dignity can mean choosing to starve rather than take $10 to buy a meal if the person dangling it demands you do some trick like a trained dog for his amusement. It's about choosing your actions on your own morals rather than on someone elses.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I have the opposite problem. I have zero drive for status & prestige, but rather follow my passions no matter how unfashionable they are.

And it hurts my career. I don't have twitter followers who fall over themselves to offer me a job the very second I enter the job market. I can't shame a company or other big entity for behaving badly. I have very little leverage for many important career-improving opportunities because I lack the social clout to take advantage of them.

You NEED to attain some status and influence if you want the best control over your destiny. I'm trying to do this now, but it's hard because it doesn't come naturally.

<comment><USER24> I hate the idea that developers should have blogs. I see the advantage in using it to market yourself, but I write code for a living not blogs.

There isn't that much information that I feel the need to share with the world, and for the things I do (that would be career related), I don't usually have the time and motivation to write them up properly.

<comment><USER25> > I hate the idea that developers should have blogs.

I hate the reality that developers can't easily develop a portfolio of work because generally their work is owned lock, stock, and barrel by the companies they work for, and can't be legally shared outside of those places.

So we have github, but even that is suspect and many potential employers don't look at it, unless you are some well known contributor or founder to one or more open-source projects. Even then it can be a crap shoot; I've read on more than one occasion somewhat famous developers of tools being turned down for positions at companies that use the very tools they developed. It is somewhat maddenning.

You can just about forget it if your repositories are for your own personal projects, but that's better than nothing - and that's also where a blog has some influence. Basically, as a place to show something of your coding ability and knowledge, and the value you can bring as a new hire.

But honestly, that can get tiring; sometimes when I go home from work, I'll do something interesting - but many times, I just want to relax and not think about coding or other projects too much. I've found myself becoming more this way as I've grown older (currently approaching 50).

I've been an SWE for over 25 years now, but every time I find myself looking for a new position, it feels as though my previous experience counts for nothing. I can't show any future employer what I worked on in the past (and in many cases, that work is long gone along with the previous employer), they rarely want to look at my github or (back when it existed - I really need to restart it - sigh) my personal blogging site. It feels like every such interview and encounter I am starting fresh.

It sickens me. I don't know of any other kind of career where this kind of thing is the norm, except software development and engineering. If you aren't extremely famous and known, or you don't have a deep and wide network, or whatever - you can't just drop your resume, have a decent conversation about your past work and skills, and be given a chance. Instead, you are more often than not forced to jump thru a variety of ill-conceived hoops (many of them on fire, too!), which in the end might get you the position, or more often than not, you are rejected without any explanation or reasoning that might help you to understand what you need to work on in order to be more successful the next time around.

It's fairly absurd when you are on the younger end of the scale; now imagine you are old enough in some cases to be the parent of the person interviewing you, and still being questioned in such a manner, after likely being employed in the past longer than they've been alive.

It's almost Kafkaesque.

<comment><USER26> I think that is the reality for most professionals, not just developers and engineers.

Your HR technician, your barber, your baker, your supermarket team leader, aren't going to be able to show more than their CV either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> "People who are excited by posthumous fame forget that the people who remember them will soon die too. And those after them in turn. Until their memory, passed from one to another like a candle flame, gutters and goes out.

But suppose that those who remembered you were immortal and your memory undying. What good would it do you? And I don't just mean when you're dead, but in your own lifetime. What use is praise, except to make your lifestyle a little more comfortable?"

\- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

<comment><USER28> Ironic that that quote comes from someone who died in the year 180. If I got 2000 years of fame, I'd be pretty satisfied.

<comment><USER29> Marcus Aurelius is asking exactly how will that be of _use_? (Even when you're alive)

<comment><USER30> Feeling better about yourself is not useful? Influencing a large number of people is not useful?

<comment><USER31> Marcus Aurelius being a writer on stoicism, I feel I have to point out that stoicism would suggest that you control how you feel about yourself and are only tying your feelings to external factors. You can feel good about yourself without external validation.

Influencing others is only practically useful in your lifetime, so posthumous fame doesn't really do you anything.

<comment><USER32> But it does other people good after i die, and i care about other people even after i die.

<comment><USER31> but that's a different perspective - stoicism addresses the hedonism treadmill and how to get off of it (as well as how to respond to misery) - it isn't in opposition to charity or altruism. It's a totally different thing to try to have a great influence for posthumous fame and recognition, versus just trying to help people whether they know it was you or not.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Thought-provoking article.

I got over my obsession with emulating others' success when I realized that a lot of supposedly successful people were successful primarily because they were also lucky. Once you accept that a big factor in whether you'll end up "successful" is just chance, it becomes easier to accept that it may not be entirely under your control and so there's no reason to obsess about it.

PG's advice, which in some ways is a restatement of the Bhagvad Gita's best- known verse, really speaks to me. Just focus on doing the best you can on the things that actually interest you. The rest will follow, and if it doesn't, that's okay. At least you'll have had fun doing your thing.

<comment><USER34> > At least you'll have had fun doing your thing.

Whilst working 40+ hours a week for someone who was lucky enough that "the rest did follow."

<comment><USER35> It sounds like you're bitter about working "for" someone else. This might be an ego problem and the solution is not to just be an entrepreneur because that won't solve the root issue.

<comment><USER36> Maybe entrepreneurs are in part driven by ego. Taking on huge risk takes motivation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> > Should I learn to make pasta from scratch? No, that's crazy. Nobody cares if > you can make pasta from scratch and it's not going to make any money.

I think the author got it wrong here. He mixes the words "successful" with "fame". By learning a skill like making pasta from scratch, you can make yourself and other people happy. And if you go deep into the field, you can even make money on it, if that's important to you :)

I started baking pizza and obsessed at making the perfect tomato sauce, the perfect dough, the perfect crust. Basically, the perfect pizza. I do know that perfect does not exist, but I got to a point where I make a pretty damn good pizza. I like my pizza better than most pizzi I can get in a restaurant. My next step is to build my own wood-fired outdoor oven, so I can reach the temperatures I need to get the pizza even better.

Being able to make this amazing pizza makes me so happy. It makes people around me happy. And I learn my friends and family how to make proper pizza. I smile and laugh and dance when I make pizza.

This is true success in my opinion.

And after I learned the baking skills, success kind of started snowballing in other areas as well.

Why are famous people successful? They do what makes them happy :) Why am I starting to be successful? I do what makes me happy :) How can you start to be successful? Do what makes you happy :)

If you think going down a certain path for happiness might seem a little crazy, that's a good sign.

<comment><USER38> Do you have a recipe? :)

<comment><USER37> Yes.

Tipo OO flour (Caputo Classic), 63% hydration, 3% salt, 5% browning agent (sugar, syrup, malt, or something similar) and instant dry yeast or liquid sourdough according to how long time I got to rise the dough. I use PizzApp+ to calculate the recipe.

I did obsess about making the perfect pizza, and I did spend a year to make the perfect sourdough bread.

To recap it very simple, I think the recipe for success is having fun and enjoying what you do :)

<comment><USER39> Bread flour > 00 flour in a regular home oven. The guys over at the pizzamaking.com forum would agree

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> > Should I learn to make pasta from scratch? No, that's crazy. Nobody cares if > you can make pasta from scratch and it's not going to make any money.

I stared at this for a long time in complete disbelief thinking "But it's so delicious!" And I guess, if you do it for friends or acquaintances it will give you prestige, you will be the prestigious person who makes totally awesome pasta. Although personally I would rank doing something nice for people above the prestige you might get from it, so I guess the article is not for me.

<comment><USER41> I feel somewhat sorry for the author. He ends the post with the realization that the search for success has not turned out like he was led to believe, and then questions how he should proceed with life.

My advice would be to go make pasta and share it with a beautiful woman (or man in his case).

<comment><USER40> Well, I do respect that part, because they are open about it and it's never too late to recognize such a thing. And we probably all get some version of this problem in differing amounts. I feel a little conflicted making fun of the pasta thing in this light.

But the pasta still sounds delicious.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> OT, and possibly unpopular here, but this really gets on my nerves:

> _In Paul Graham's essay on,_ How to Do what You Love* he warns us about the > prestige trap: (...) you have to like the actual work of novel-writing if > you're going to be good at it; you have to like making up elaborate lies*

PG's contempt for anything literary pervades in many of his essays, which may reveal some kind of unhealthy obsession, esp. for someone who brands himself a "writer".

But this quote shows a deep misunderstanding of what literature is. Literature is about the TRUTH. It may be the only way to gain an actual comprehension of human nature.

A novel can be viewed as an experiment: put characters in a controlled setting of your design, and then see what happens. This is the best tool we have for this.

<comment><USER43> Novels don't contain some otherwise ineffable TRUTH (in all-capital letters), they're just made-up stories for entertainment. Which is a perfectly fine thing for people to work on and to enjoy.

If anything this bizarre attitude that literature "may be the only way to gain an actual comprehension of human nature" might be an artifice of people's desire for success and prestige--puffery motivated by a personal insecurity about the significance of one's interests or work. You want to gain an actual comprehension of human nature? Read history. Go to the bar. Have some kids. Sit down on the curb and talk to a homeless person. Travel. Put yourself in extreme situations with other people (like joining the military or something). You'll learn a hell of a lot more that way than by reading novels.

<comment><USER42> I do have kids. Did they teach me something about human nature? Not that I noticed. I still go to the bar often. Do I learn anything about human nature there? A little, yes, but not much (in essence, that people act stupid when drunk. They can be very funny though). Do I travel? Yes. What does that teach me? Mostly, that there's no place like home.

I maintain you will learn a lot more, and a lot faster, by reading Shakespeare, or Flaubert, than by talking with any number of people.

It's likely that putting yourself in "extreme situations" will teach you something about yourself, and by extension, about human nature in general. But you may die learning. There must be a better way.

If you think novels are "made-up stories for entertainment", chances are you didn't read many of them, or many good ones.

<comment><USER43> Novels are literally made-up stories. If they actually happened, they wouldn't be novels, they would be memoirs or history or something.

We do disagree on whether the purpose of novels is to entertain or to deliver what you call TRUTH. Now, to be as generous as possible to your point, some writers can distill a lifetime of wisdom and experience into a work of literature in a way that expresses some meaningful sense or generality about the human condition. How do we tell those people apart from the ones who fall short of that? I don't think you can tell them apart by just reading their work. You'd need to have enough of a base of reference to understand whether the literature you're evaluating actually matches up to human nature. In other words, you have to already have some understanding of the human condition before you can accurately judge whether a work of literature actually contains the TRUTH about the human condition.

It's true that putting yourself in extreme situations will teach you a lot about the human condition. It's also true that you might die learning. It's especially true that most people who have actually been in those situations will almost universally agree that if you weren't there and you didn't experience it yourself, you will never actually know. You can tell because they write about it in their memoirs sometimes.

Between the base-of-reference problem and the nothing-perfectly-matches-up-to- the-real-thing problem, I just think it's bizarrely hyperbolic to write in all-capital-letters that novels are the only path to the TRUTH. That's an absurd and unrealistic expectation. Based on what you said, it would certainly imply that the best way to get even more TRUTH would be to have someone spend their life locked in a room doing nothing but reading fiction, and then whatever fiction they wrote based on that would really be the TRUTH. But that's not really how it works at all; most good novelists actually have some interesting real-life base of reference.

<comment><USER42> Capitalization really seems to have upset you! It was more shouting than praying, though. I meant to say NO! to the statement that novels are "lies". They are the opposite of that. Lies are meant to deceive and exploit. Novels want to _help_ you find the truth, any which way you want to type it.

And to respond to your 2nd paragraph, I'm not saying that (good) novels contain wisdom plainly stated as clever observations every few sentences. That would be a kind of diluted essay and would be of very little value.

That's not the point at all. Novels are machines. They work or they don't. You don't need to have extensive wisdom to decide if they do, just like you don't need to be a mechanic to know if your car won't start.

When they work, they show you a true situation. They don't "deliver" anything. They show. They make plain. They are not a list of interesting tidbits ("10 hidden truths about yourself!!"); they are an experience.

<comment><USER43> > I'm not saying that (good) novels contain wisdom plainly stated as clever > observations every few sentences

I'm well aware that you're not saying that, and I'm utterly mystified where you got that idea from. By "wisdom", I meant the basic understanding of the human condition. An author who understands the human condition can express aspects of it in literature by constructing characters, placing them in narrative situations, and so forth. And on that count, I agree that literary fiction can be a way to show the human condition.

But that's not what you said. What you said was that literature--in context, meaning fictional literature--"may be the only way to gain an actual comprehension of human nature". That's a ludicrous and hyperbolic statement and if you hadn't gone that far I wouldn't have bothered responding because otherwise I do, in fact, have some sense for what you're getting at.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I think i have a modified version of this where i abhor attention, rarely state opinions (except quasi anonymously) and definitely am happy for my contributions to go unrecognized, but i man do i get an endorphine rush when people come to me because they remember i fixed some tricky stuff for them before. Also i really try to get the younger people on my team to _not_ follow on my footsteps here, it's not the best way to build a career.

Also, Dave, given the subject matter i did sneak in a little chuckle that you were the one posting this to HN. I'm glad you did though, interesting view into the headspace.

<comment><USER45> :) good catch

To be fair, he never claimed to have overcome his obsession. It was a very nice post to read, so I am glad he shared too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> > Unfortunately, after a year of purposely trying, I was still not becoming > Elon Musk nor any other "successful" person. Despite reading everyday, > meditating, getting up early, taking cold showers, and many more things. But > what makes these guys successful anyway? Their fame? Money? Contribution to > society?

And wearing grey t-shirts won't make you Zuckerberg [0]. You don't become a 0.00000001%er by mimicking the most meaningless aspect of their life.

Seems to me that this is particularly affecting people who aren't satisfied with themselves / rarely reflect on themselves and get caught in the rat race without ever pausing to look around. You can always be more successful, earn more money buy more gadgets, have a nicer car, more awards, it's an endless quest, but if you're empty inside these things won't help you.

[0] [https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/the-reason-mark- zucker...](https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/the-reason-mark-zuckerberg- wears-the-same-shirt-every-day/)

<comment><USER47> Also, it's unlikely there will ever be another Musk or Zuckerberg in tech. Technology is a largely established industry and it's very unlikely that a single person is going to found and maintain control of another trillion dollar company.

Zuck-a-bees need to get in on the ground floor of the next, next big thing, which barely exists right now.

<comment><USER48> This may be correct, but you cannot be certain of this at all.

Everyone always thinks they're at the end of history in one way or another. Saying that current big tech companies have reached a critical threshold and will remain static for a certain amount of time is like watching a stock price go up - you may think it's a sign that it will continue growing, or that it's peaking and will go down, but you can only say that with certainty in hindsight. Nassim Taleb would go as far to say that there are much less actual underlying trends, and that more is governed by randomness than you think.

In terms of emerging technology, growth and consolidation is a pattern that happens throughout history, and the current state does appear to match that pattern, but this situation is more volatile because the big companies don't have as much physical assets which vastly changes the ability for smaller companies to compete (source: capitalism without capital).

<comment><USER49> It is not correct. Visit Slashdot archives during the post early 2000s boom era. Every poster saying that the era of getting rich from the Internet was over. See any technology or industry and 90% of the commenters would say that it is too late to get in the bandwagon, the right time was 4,8,12 years ago. Every year the comments are pretty much in the same vein.

I am not saying it is easy, far from it, but the idea that there is no chance for unknown person/companies cannot grow to establish themselves as giants is ludicrous.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Great article. The part that stands out to me:

> Unfortunately, after a year of purposely trying, I was still not becoming > Elon Musk nor any other "successful" person. Despite reading everyday, > meditating, getting up early, taking cold showers, and many more things.

There's a ridiculous amount of bro science in Silicon Valley tech. And this stuff doesn't matter at all. All that matters is product-market fit.

<comment><USER12> "Bro Science" _is_ product-market fit. The market is people obsessed with success and prestige, and bro-science is ideas (and products) marketed at helping them think they have it.

People who self-define as "rational" are harder to sell to upfront, but once you're past the defenses and hooked into their identity they'll actively defend what you've marketed to them.

<comment><USER51> I think you're redefining bro-science.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> About a year ago, a similar sentiment hit me very hard. I was in a situation where I had actually checked all the boxes I wanted to check. My boxes didn't involve working at FAANG, but they weren't insignificant. I was very confused why I wasn't happy.

There's a very good short story by Alastair Reynolds called Understanding Space and Time. The protagonist is the last human alive. He finds his purpose in understanding the universe. Even once he completes this goal, he must go on living his life.

It may sound trite, but I tell people to put themselves in that position. What would you spend your time doing if you were the last human alive? Now obviously you don't do that verbatim, but I think it should be an influential datapoint on your choice of career path.

The best news is that if you're a half decent technical mind with a half decent network, the odds of you ever starving are quite low (not including dependents. That's a different story). As a result, you have ample opportunity to carve out whatever corner of the universe you want for yourself :)

</comment><comment><USER53> It is okay to be "obsessed" with success or prestige so long as you are a satisficer and not a maximizer:

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science- choice/20150...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science- choice/201506/satisficing-vs-maximizing)

If you are a satisficer, getting a better brand name company/school/accelerator etc will help you in the long run.

If you are a maximizer, you may be unhappy for all the reasons stated in the article and in the comments.

But we shouldn't confuse the benefits of a brand with the impossible standards.

</comment><comment><USER54> I look at this from the opposite perspective, the person who doesn't care much for success and prestige but has to deal with the toxic side-effects of those that do.

I grew up an only child in as single parent household where I was taught that it's better to quietly build a stable secure foundation for your life, rather than to put yourself "out there" and hope for the best. My mothers attitude was that it is better to have a boring stable job that provides enough for you and your family than to be rich or famous. For example she implored me to study for a fall-back manual trade in case the computing degree thing didn't work out.

Recently, I decided to go self-employed and do my own thing in my own time. This was driven by the fact that having worked for a few startups I couldn't deal with the success at all costs approach of some of the founders and managers. For example being forced to push out new features before they are ready, knowing that the technical debt is mounting and that it will come back to bite me one day. Trying to explain why stuff like this was a bad idea would be met with a response implying I didn't care for the company and didn't value success. I also got frequently reprimanded for refusing to do overtime on a regular basis, preferring instead to be with my family. Plus all this was usually coupled with some horrific "Fake it till you make it" promotional activities that we'd get roped in to.

One of the founders went out and got himself a Porsche 911 and put an email around the office showing it off and telling us if we worked hard to make the company a success we too could afford a similar car. Lord knows how he paid for it as the company was losing €3million a year at that point.

All the while I would be acutely aware of the fact that the founders had already churned through four or five failed startups. They were trying out ideas in the hope that one was succeed and make them rich and famous. If another failed they wouldn't care for the people being let go as they would just move on to their next idea.

Having ambitions is good, but I think we as a society are pressured in to setting those ambitions far too high. I am worried by the rising suicide rates in many places, are we pressuring people to chase unattainable life goals until they crack? I think that is part of it.

<comment><USER34> How do people like that ever get investment? Like, surely the investors must think, "well, they just screwed up their last 4 or 5 startups so maybe I'll keep my money."

<comment><USER54> Be good at selling yourself and your ideas. Try to hide your failures. Go after smaller niche VCs who don't have the resources to do proper due diligence. Play to investors greed and ego. Manipulate figures. Claim you are speaking with multiple potential funders.

At the end of the day investors are human too and suscetiple to.maniulatiin, even though they may think they are more savvy than they actually are.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> The major fallacy I often see is that people driven by "status and prestige" often fail to realize that those they are hoping to impress don't care as much about these things.

It's a bit like LinkedIn. Lots of people are on LinkedIn trying to impress people but the people they're trying to impress aren't on (or barely use) LinkedIn.

<comment><USER56> Ah, LinkedIn... Recruiter spam central.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> "would not pursue anything unless he knew people cared about it"

This one struck me as a bit odd. I don't see a problem with being motivated by whether you are creating value for other people.

"Should I learn to make pasta from scratch?"

That's fine if someone wants to do that, but I hold higher admiration for people who have some drive to make the world better, even in fairly small ways, rather than spending all their time on something so trivial.

And yeah, trying to earn my admiration isn't what you should probably be doing. But doing something that is admirable? That's a good thing. To me, anyway.

</comment><comment><USER58> On a side note, didn't know about the whole Siraj Raval "controversy". I always found him shallow and more form over function, just stopped following him and didn't speak about it because everyone was raving over him. Looks like there was something after all...

<comment><USER59> Yeah at first I liked him but after exery video I felt stupid and had learned exactly nothing, so I stopped. Glad its not me :D _sweating_

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> Something that's perhaps only clear with time and perspective is that no matter how much success people attain, they still find plenty of ways to be miserable. Some of the happiest people I've met in my life aren't necessarily the luckiest or most successful - they're the most grateful and compassionate. For those of us lucky to find "success", the real question is: why did we want it so bad, and what are we going to make of it?

</comment><comment><USER61> Notice what the quote in the article, and the points made in the comments below, reveal?

Humans compare with their reference group. As your status increases you'll step out of your old group and into a new one. And then the cycle starts again. Your peers are again ahead! You've traded your group of 'job seeking undergrads' for 'ladder climbing professionals'.

I'm not sure if it's possible to have control over this automatic comparing, but the cure is not to keep climbing. It's to hack your mind to set your reference group to people that have lower status, aka: be gratefull for what you have, and think about the ways in which you are furtunate that others are not.

<comment><USER62> The cure is to not play the game and go do your own thing.

<comment><USER63> I was going to reply something to this effect - it's ok to climb or whatever, but do things on your own terms without caring about how other people are doing. You can still be happy for their success and should be, but as long as you give an effort you're happy with, that should be enough.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> You are trying to fill a basic human need, which is simply beeing seen by others. What could alleviate some of this pain is simple social connection. I was always reading about how important it is and kind of blew it off, but as I get older I'm understanding how important it is to our well being. Reach out and make connections. Get coffee with a friend who listens to you. Find a hobby where you are interacting with people in meatspace. This may even lead to finding deeper purpose in ways you may not have expected.

</comment><comment><USER48> It's rare to see such honest self-reflection on a sensitive topic like this.

The need for recognition in some way or another is hardwired into us, and I don't believe it's intrinsically bad - we are a communal animal and we want to provide value for our community, our brains want success and prestige as a way to motivate us to do that - like feeling hungry motivates us to nourish ourselves. It's a basic need to feel useful, and prestige is the metric our primitive brains use to measure that usefulness, hence office drones find happiness as little league coaches.

Like any force, it can be both good or bad, and it turns bad when your ONLY concern is success and prestige, leading you to optimize external appearances and get some of that sweet sweet second hand prestige. But when combined with something you enjoy doing, and that can provide real value to the world, this desire can be truly world changing, and I think it's a vast oversimplification (being HN I can say it's over-fitting to a one-dimensional metric) to say that the Jobs, Musks, Gates and other folks weren't motivated to some degree by it.

Side note: I remember flying out of LA a few years back and seeing FIVE gaunt bald men dressed in black turtle necks and blue jeans. Either there was a call for a Steve Jobs biopic and nobody took off their costumes, or LA is the the poster child for over-optimizing external appearances.

</comment><comment><USER65> It's just people who only think about themselves, coupled with being an idiot.

The thought process goes like this: 'person on tv is getting love and attention; I want love and attention; I'm going to mindlessly try and copy everything about them, down to what underwear brand they wear'.

This is how advertising works.

That's usually the feminine version. The masculine version goes 'I'm going to win at all costs'.

Here is how an intelligent person thinks: 'This society is a disaster, I am going to learn to distance myself and pursue my calling, while doing my best to provide a safe environment for myself and my loved ones'.

Notice how there is a calling, there is coming to terms with harsh realities of mob mentality and there is an attempt at creating a mini eco-system of love for a small number of people.

Idiots' calling is 'other people need to like me!' or 'I need to be better/higher up the dominance hierarchy than others!'. They _need_ mobs because they think they can get a mob to like them and not turn on them afterwards, or they derive their self worth from comparing themselves to the mob by being 'better' than them or even worse - they _need_ the mob to _use_ it to achieve their psychotic visions of a better world (every war general)! They don't create ecosystems because they are fine with living in pig shit, as long as other pigs tell him/her how great he/she is or they get to 'win' (Gary Vee is a prime example of this lately).

Just my thoughts on it at this point in my life of course :)

</comment><comment><USER66> One of the problems is HR. It's their job to lower your salary in the interview process, that's how they get paid. No matter what you do, they will always find some flaw in your resume and even though you have 10 years experience, match every single technology framework they listed in the job posting (planets aligned), and were a top engineer at all of your previous companies. The field of technology is too broad. Ideally we'd have some control to have a division of labor to specialize in certain areas like networking, security, data, backend, frontend, linux admin, etc. which already sort of exists but when you talk to companies they seem to want the rockstar programmer that does everything and look at you like you're crazy for wanting to specialize in one thing. Unlike lawyers and doctors, who have many clients, we can really only have one client at a time, our employer, and they will treat us like shit unless they know that we can find a job easily at another employer. Sadly, the only thing worth working on is being able to get a job quickly, as opposed to actually do a good job for your employer... which is not valued.

</comment><comment><USER67> Isn't this basically just what happens to some number of people when they 'train' their brains to get out of the hole everyone is in to begin with (the requirement to make a living)?

Status and prestige are more powerful multipliers than anything else. Even outside of business. You can be the best 'x' in the world, but winning the Olympic gold will multiply your earnings by probably an order of magnitude or more.

<comment><USER68> Many things are winner-take-all. Olympic Gold. Company founder. CEO.

And looking past the top one person, there are power laws too. The number 2 person in a company gets paid twice what the number 3 person gets, and so on.

And it's not just money. There's power - politicians. And fame - actors, and others. They all follow the same pattern.

Given that this is the world we live in, there's a huge incentive to move up one rung on the ladder relative to the people around you.

Part of this drive to move ahead of other people is rational because of the geometrically increasing rewards.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> I took a happiness course once. It said that instead of chasing status, we should chase flow. The idea being status is dependent on what others think, which is inherently unstable, while flow is joy for yourself.

There's a book I read, can't remember name but basically it said instead of chasing recognition, we should chase knowing. Recognition was lots of random strangers liking some surface thing about you. For example I like band X - <USER2> I saw them in public I'd want to say "hey I love your music!". Or conversely, I think band X sucks, and I want to say that. It's a shallow opinion held by many.

Knowing is respect by people who have the authority to actually evaluate your talents. In this case, it would be experienced musicians. What do they think of the band's music? These people actually have the relevant experience to evaluate your work. If a group like that admires your work, it's a deeper, more satisfying "like" than a bunch of random people. Yet we are typically wired to chase the approval of the masses.

These things can be hard, I certainly don't do them all the time, but it's helpful direction if you can relate to this article.

</comment><comment><USER70> > A guy who [...] wants to be known as the creator of something.

I have this problem. I'm frequently distracted from doing what I want to _do_ by ideas for things that I want to _have done_ (and wouldn't enjoy actually doing day-to-day).

The search for prestige is about the only reason to switch paths and start working on any of these ideas, but it's hard to ignore.

</comment><comment><USER71> My observation has been that the kids that fall prey for the prestige trap, tend to come from families that push that mentality very hard. Often families with relatively successful parents, i.e white-collar professionals and the likes.

I think there's also an element of insecurity and lack of identity among those kids. They've been measured and held to high standards all their lives, and they have close and clear references of success. Maybe their parents, grand- parents, or other family members.

They get pushed to ace their school works, they get pushed to do stuff that pads their school applications and resumes. This seems to be even worse when your parents come from cultures where there are a handful few of "correct" careers to choose between.

These kids sacrifice a lot, so the obsession with clear-cut goals could be some rationalization or their sacrifices and lack of identity.

But then again, we're all driven by different things. Some set their mind at 17 to be retired by 30, and will do whatever it takes to accelerate that process.

Others may not need money at all (due to things like inheritance), but want to fit in with their peers - so chasing prestige becomes just another case of keeping up with the Joneses...if nothing else for the bragging rights.

With that said, in my later years I've realized that chasing prestige (for my own part) was nothing more than vanity, and a need for external validation.

But it turned out that I did not have passion for the things that were prestigious, and I felt miserable pouring all my focus and energy into something I did not care for.

In the end, I took a stand with myself, and figured out that it's better to be happy and create something I love, and create value for others (as well as myself) - and if success comes with it, then that's a bonus.

Not having a cloud of professional / career anxiety hanging over me is great.

</comment><comment><USER72> Never underestimate low self-esteem. It's a bitch to be around and so obvious it's caused be deeper issues.

My own subjective belief about male subjects around this matter - success and fame - , is circeling around father-issues and the lack of gratitude and applause from him.

I have worked with so many 9f these kinds, and IT is full of them. Most of these people are boring, exactly because their goals lean towards being someone or something. Ego-centric and primadonna individuals who will run you over, if they can be successful.

Decency is lost and forgotten virtue in too many people. But in the end, they will realize that being a success will not make you happy and What a waste of time.

Also, What is it you want to be known for? A frame work? An app?

Give me a break. Your grandkids will have forgotten you by the time they have their own kids.

I don't have a lot of money, but I am so successful you can't measure it.

</comment><comment><USER73> Read a research that said above a certain amount of money (75K yearly or so) you won't be any happier. What makes us happy is finding meaning in relationships and the work we do (meaning, not money). If what you do feels important to you , odds are you are happier. If you work for Google but struggle to find any meaning in your work odds are you aren't that much happier than the average cop or teacher. Marriage and kids can help but are not the only way to get there.

<comment><USER74> That study is extremely misunderstood and frankly the idea that money isn't correlated to happiness after some moderate income level (e.g. 75k) is flat out not supported by evidence.

[https://www.vox.com/2015/6/20/8815813/orange-is-the-new- blac...](https://www.vox.com/2015/6/20/8815813/orange-is-the-new-black-piper- chapman-happiness-study)

<comment><USER73> Intuitively it makes sense to me. I can see how someone who makes 160K might feel a bit better about himself than someone who makes 80K, but that's not really happiness is it? It's some kind of contentment. And how much happier is he? He makes 2x as much so he's 2x happier? Obviously the correlation more money = more happiness isn't strong and declines after a certain amount.

<comment><USER73> Putting that specific research aside, there's a wealth of data on what makes humans happy and money/social status isn't as high on the list as you'd expect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> This sounds a lot like the defectiveness and unrelenting standards lifetraps I mentioned in another comment. I encourage the author, and anyone else who recognizes themselves in his words, to go to therapy about this.

You can also read the book I mentioned in a previous comment. In the opened my eyes to the lifetraps that have been affecting me the most and how they're playing out.

I wish you success with overcoming this!

</comment><comment><USER76> There seems to be a lot of talk in the article about what the writer wants. Also, there is talk about some life style changes. However, the author seems to be lacking a detailed plan of attack.

My suggestion to the author would be to move their motivations out of the picture long enough to frame it. The biggest difference between successful people and others is action, not motivation.

</comment><comment><USER77> It seems so bizarre to me that there is an r/cscareerquestions at all. And the only other r/__careerquestions are computer-related (IT, UX, DS). It's not like dentists and architects haven't discovered the internet yet.

Computers are the new gold rush. It seems like most people today got into this field just looking to strike it rich.

<comment><USER78> (It does explain the whole webdev/javascript situation a bit, I would claim.)

I don't mind people entering this field with a goal of getting rich. The problem is when that is their _only_ motivation.

There are definitely lots of other factors at play here, but I kinda look back at the late 90s/early 00s with nostalgia. It seemed like most of the people you worked with, or even interviewed back then had some basic level of sincere passion for the field. Today that's not really the case. That makes the work less fun.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> This behavior can also have bad consequences for people in unexpected ways. Want to land a job? Create a highly used npm package and put it in your portfolio. It doesn't matter if it's supported long after, has a ton of dependencies or is even really necessary in the first place. And shit like this is how we end up with things like left pad.

</comment><comment><USER80> What no mention of elite colleges, Ivy League? Children get on the treadmill very early now, best feeder schools to get into Stanford/Harvard. I find it easy to ignore most of the time, but maybe that great company that I wanted to work for would interview me if I had that background...

</comment><comment><USER81> He who is not contented with what he has, would not be contented with what he would like to have. - <USER3>

</comment><comment><USER82> Note to OP, the link for your name in the page footer is broken: [https://www.bennettnotes.com/bennettnotes.com](https://www.bennettnotes.com/bennettnotes.com)

</comment><comment><USER83> _Should I learn to make pasta from scratch? No, that's crazy. Nobody cares_

If you are single and invite your date over and make them pasta from scratch I _guarantee_ it will work. Seriously.

</comment><comment><USER84> I guess something that explains this is seeing this post at HN and close to it this one "How to be successful (at your career, Twitter edition)"

</comment><comment><USER85> Oof that hits the spot. Can't seem to be satisfied until I get to bootstrap a product I love, even though my day job is already perfect.

</comment><comment><USER86> > Looking back, I also feel like I was frequently compared agaisnst other > children. As a reminder that life is a competition, and you don't want to be > behind.

I don't know how old you are but life _is_ a competition. At the very fundamental level, all species are competing with each other for survival. Your mother was not mislead, she knows that in order to survive in this jungle, you need to be competitive. And given how shallow the world is, these titles and awards matters, so you should get them.

<comment><USER87> Except individual will lose to groups that cooperate, so even if the world is competitive, there is an incentive for collaboration and equality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER88> This is one of those supposed character flaws I could have used a bit more of in my personal makeup.

</comment><comment><USER89> I may not be successful or prestigious but at least I'm not Obsessed With Success and Prestige.

Yay for me.

</comment><comment><USER90> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

</comment><comment><USER91> Random chain of associations, but I'm reminded of this: [https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0...](https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B0_\(%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC,_1986\))

The thesis of the movie is apparently that that Donald Crowhurst ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Crowhurst](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Crowhurst)) was driven insane by the anxieties of late-stage capitalism. I'd rather have those than the anxieties of late-stage Communism, but I can see where they were coming from.

</comment><comment><USER92> People derive pleasure from success and prestige. There is also another way to derive pleasure: by criticizing others non-constructively, by thrashing others' egos.

</comment><comment><USER93> Who is a narcissist? (Jeopardy for 10 points)

</comment><comment><USER94> Ling Ling practices 40 hours a day

</comment><comment><USER95> > Got a FAANG internship? Well it wasn't one of the good FAANGs, so if you > really think about it, you really didn't accomplish anything.

This is funny because I've been straight up told this by multiple people. It's not neuroticism, it's the simple fact that hierarchies exist.

<comment><USER34> Which ones are the "bad" FAANGs?

<comment> barry-cotter I believe Amazon has much more variable hiring standards than Google so probably Amazon. Don't know enough to think of any other candidates though I doubt Google or Netflix are among them given the former's ludicrous hiring process or the latter's policy of firing fast with very generous severance for people they don't think reach their standards once hired.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> I'm a little jaded from years of seeing posts like this, to the point that now they don't seem quite as much like "see, you don't need all that", but instead read more like "See, I've redefined the rules and evaluations -- I'm the winner now!"

<comment><USER97> I see your point but at the same time - why is redefining the rules a bad thing? Why should people be obligated to evaluate themselves against criteria that's popular or set by other people? Why does that actually matter?

<comment><USER96> It isn't a bad thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. Yet it isn't always conveyed at face value.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> And yet here you are, self-posting to HN hoping to get to the frontpage.

</comment><comment><USER98> Influencers...</comment>


Show HN: Cilantro ("About.me for restaurants"). Feedback wanted. - <AUTHOR> This is my MVP. It's not quite really ready to unleash, but what the heck.
http://cilantrosites.com
SHORT PITCH: About.me for restaurants
LONGER PITCH: Single-page websites for restaurants that don't suck. Instant setup. Hours, map, menu, contact/social, email list, mobile version. No Flash. No PDFs.
KNOWN ISSUES: (a) can add menu items but not edit/del. (b) additional settings (mainly domain mapping) are turned off (c) if you're editing colors, make sure to scroll to the top of the page, (d) many others
FEEDBACK WELCOME: I have tough skin. Also, I know much of the design is average. I have a better designer already working on updates.
GOOD NEWS: I started a small AdWords campaign Tuesday ($15/day). 3 restaurants have signed up so far. Also have a handful of local establishments working on sites.
ROADMAP: (1) bug fixes/known issues, (2) embedded twitter feed for food trucks, (3) sell your own Groupons with PayPal (and keep the money yourself!)
---
WANT A T-SHIRT? Give me some really awesome, non-obvious feedback OR make a site for your favorite local restaurant. I'm doing a run of shirts soon. I will send you one. <comment><USER2> Disclaimer: I hate you. Restaurant sites are my cash cow, so anything that gets in the way of that receives my rage.

Feedback: Your site looks unpolished. You disclaimed as much; I'm just confirming.

Concept is solid. And it sets you up for a premium model with additional features. Your menu handling looks interesting; it is a challenge I face with clients that we usually solve by embracing the devil and publishing a PDF. Grr. However I am going to be doing something very similar to what you have going on.

Your feature set and layouts/design/default copy are pretty solid. Covers the basics. Events is the piece I end up doing on all my clients' sites. Typically a simple event feature (like your menu editor) suffices. Event name, description, date, time.

For a restaurant site, I don't see a link to #top or home on your nav bar which would be handy.

The editor is nice. I like how it moves to the section you're editing and the ajax update is uber handy.

No clean way to exit the editor and go back to the admin dashboard. And now that I'm logged out I can't seem to log back in. No confirmation email either.

Would be handy to let the visitor print out the menu I think . Analytics needs to be there. If you could rig up page views and some simple actions (e.g. your menu was printed x number of times). throw in some widget like AddThis and you're good to go without tons of dev.

Crap. Nice work. Good thing your domain name stinks and is easily forgotten or else I'd be in trouble.

</comment><comment><USER3> * I personally think your domain is somewhat subpar. If you owned cilantro.com, it would be incredibly brandable. CilantroSites.com is a bit awkward and long.

* I was actually pleasantly surprised by your design. Sold me, and I am usually pretty critical of many start-up designs.

* I tried to click on the picture above "take a tour". It didn't do anything. I assumed it would start a lightbox gallery or something.

* "Take a tour" didn't look like a button, and that entire line should be centered under the photo.

* I was scanning the page for the word "Demo" to see some sort of demo, but there wasn't one.

* Nice job emphasizing that the sites "Work on iPhones and smart phones." That is a big deal, and many restaurant sites are not compliant, or load very awkwardly on mobile.

* The resultant url is pretty ugly. Why doesn't it have the name of the restaurant in the url? <http://cilantro-92.clnt.me/>

Overall, pretty impressive! 8/10.

I think the urls need to look nicer if you want this go more widescale. clnt.me? Not sure about that.

Out of curiosity, how are you planning on monetizing?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for all the feedback. Email me your address.

 _> > I personally think your domain is somewhat subpar. If you owned cilantro.com, it would be incredibly brandable. CilantroSites.com is a bit awkward and long._

Yeah, I don't love it but I'm not trying to get too hung up on it for the time being. I own CILANTRO.ME as well and CLNT.ME is just intended for short URLs.

 _> > Out of curiosity, how are you planning on monetizing?_

a. monthly fee for premium sites (multiple menus/locations) b. other plans in the works

<comment><USER4> Just FYI, and maybe it's just me, but CLNT.ME looks way too close to an inappropriate word.

<comment><AUTHOR> Even lower case?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is really great. I've seen a lot of discussion around this problem but no one doing anything about it.

Minor feedback below.

1\. Make the "Take the tour" button bigger. Rather than "get started" I wanted to poke around a little more and find out what you were doing.

2\. Interrogate all of your copy. "Easy HTML Menus" means nothing to an LCD restauranteur. "PDF menus annoy your visitors. Cilantro lets you build and edit menus really fast" doesn't sell the reason this is great much better. PDF's take time to download, show your menu to your customers instantly.

3\. Change your pricing Create three prices. Free, medium and expensive. Use one of these <http://codecanyon.net/category/css/pricing-tables> to make it easy to read and compare plans. I think you could have a $10/m plan that allowed you to put your menu on FB that no one would bat an eyelid at. A $30/m plan for multi-location which also gave you a FB like-gate.

If your designer doesn't work out drop me a line, I'd love to help out.

</comment><comment><USER6> I like the approach of your project. I love cooking as a hobby and had been researching tons of websites from restaurants, food and wine products. That market has a huge opportunity but we need to focus in the details, in inspiring those restaurants about the web and good practices.

Much has been written about flash websites and how chefs want to do a show in their website. And now with social media they're happier having likes and tweets than something handsome.

About the website, my main critic is about the landing page. It's missing more magic. And I know that this could be very generic, but Cilantro is something amazing, something magic that you add to your recipes when they need that extra ingredient to be perfect. You need to get that love for Cilantro and show it in the website.

In fact, all the contents above the fold don't captivate. But when you go down to the gray area, I like the design better. Even when that's something that compliments the website. You need amazing examples, you need metrics. Teach restaurants about web metrics, about a A/B. Unbounced is trying for the rest of us, somebody could start doing niche markets.

Great project!

</comment><comment><USER7> Great job - feels really good.

One thing... *.clnt.me doesn't really say anything to me.

Part of the reason that many jumped to adopt about.me was the domain name, it made sense.

I note your company "2 Tablespoons" - that sounds better to me than "clnt.me" which, at first glance looks a bit weird.

I'm sure with a bit of thought and a site like domai.nr you can come up with a better domain hack for your user pages.

Best of luck with it!

</comment><comment><USER8> The gadget I would love to see on restaurant webpages: An red/green-indicator whether the restaurant is open _right now_ (And for how long, or how long until it opens.)

On the one hand that's a simple javascript when the opening times are machine readable, on the other hand handling holiday days would require manual intervention.

<comment><USER9> Reliable opening times are the holy grail of any business or directory listing. But in practice it's really hard to do reliably. The best you can do really is just list normal opening times + include the "closed on xmas day, bnk holidays" caveat, and let people figure out for themselves whether the store is open or not.

Else you risk telling people you're closed when you're not, or vice versa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you need to support your case (and convince restaurant owners that their current websites suck), you might wanna link to this: <http://theoatmeal.com/comics/restaurant_website>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> clickable link: <http://cilantrosites.com>

sample site in case you don't want to make one: <http://cilantro-92.clnt.me>

If you make a site and need me to delete it, email me.

<comment><USER11> It would be nice to see a link to a sample site in the homepage (the screenshot works... but I want to see it in action). I got the idea, but I want to see how the site could look like without having to create one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I would reiterate what some of the others have said, esp about the name. There has got to be something else out there. As for the plans one of the premium benefits could be that you input the menu items at least initially up to X amt or something like that because the people who will be willing to pay may not have the patience to input the items.

The simplicity is really good. Intuitive nav bar names would be helpful. And I don't think the 5 locations is really a selling point for most small businesses. Defnitely a great idea and if you need any help with marketing/social media I'd help.

</comment><comment><USER13> I can see why you'd put the page for the same restaurant all across the tour—but if you're really going for the "about.me for restaurants" pitch, then you should be _selling_ (and hence _showing)_ a wide variety of designs, to show off your the flexibility of your service. A huge part of why about.me is what it is, is its simple, elegant way of making each page unique.

But really. Nice job! :-)

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, that's a really great point. Thanks. Email me your address and I'll send you a shirt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Love the idea, few things that stuck out to me:

1) Logo text is a link to hompeage, but the image is not - I kept trying to click the image

2) Login link doesn't quite fit the design, needs a bit more pop

3) Plan comparison page doesn't do a good job of selling me on the paid version - something like a comparison table that makes the benefits of the paid version more obvious, or highlight of the additional features would be better. The simple lists of features you have for each plan type now doesn't cut it.

4)The tour is good, but a link to the live site in the tour (or another live site, maybe your first few customers?) wold be nice so I can actually see a live one in action.

5)An offer to sweeten your paid plans (or an additional package) would be to submit the restaurants to places like yelp, urbanspoon, yahoo directory, etc so they can get inbound links across the web and their page can be more discoverable.

LOVE the idea though, and the design rocks. Simple is better in this case. Good luck with Cilantro!

</comment><comment><USER15> Did you see "Why are restaurant websites so horrifically bad?" <http://www.slate.com/id/2301228/>. I wonder if this is a market that actually _wants_ nice single-page websites.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did see it. My hunch is that they are coming around already (or will soon). I think mobile is driving that somewhat.

<comment><USER16> You might actually have more success with restaurants without the budget for crappy Flash-heavy sites, who just want to get on the Internet in the first place. Yes, there are still a lot of those. Make it easy for them and carve out a niche you can use to get started.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Looks great!

Here's some of my thoughts:

\- Sign-ups might feel a bit lengthy for non-technically savvy people, maybe just allow them to put in their Restaurant Name, their name, and an email, and give them a pre-made page where they could add/edit all their information

\- There's a mailing list option? How does that work? Will I be able to push updates to anyone who signs up?

\- You might be able to make a more restrictive way to input restaurant hours; being able to put in hours freely is great but doesn't give me a format to use

\- It's been mentioned already, but the URL IS really ugly

Overall, plenty of work to do, but you've made a fantastic start. Happy to give you more feedback if you like, let me know. :)

</comment><comment><USER18> It seems like the dishes are just Name/Desc/Price, so I'd encourage you to have different structures. Pizza, for instance, is more like a table of sizes and ingredients, a diner might have a bunch of dishes that each have a choice of the same side dishes. Stuff like that. Make it easy for a restaurant owner to figure out.

Start collecting takeout menus and writing the site so that you can reproduce all of them. Optionally, approach these restaurants and see if any of them are interested in learning how to use it in exchange for it being free for awhile/forever. I hope it takes off!

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree the menu management needs to support lists/tables, but I'm also wary of too many controls/options.

I've been pretty successful doing other niche websites and one thing I've notice is that, if you're not careful: CONTROL ∝ 1/EASE. I will try to work out a good balance but I'm being very mindful of not confusing people and/or causing a lot of support tickets.

<comment><USER18> Absolutely! However, having different menu-type modules will drastically increase the number of restaurants that can make use of your site. :)

You can make a narrative of the types, too. "A bunch of separate dishes," "a bunch of combinations of ingredients," "a bunch of dishes with the same optional choices," etc. There's probably some restaurant-specific jargon you can employ here to make it easier for your forthcoming customers if you talk to some managers or servers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Lovely, I really hope this takes off for you. Small nit to pick - if you're going to use hash fragments for separate parts of the page, then they should also be bookmarkable AND back-button friendly.

Kudos.

</comment><comment><USER20> Congratulations! I also was frustrated enough with restaurant websites , but specifically on phones, but knowing that a lot of restaurants can't afford to rebuild or even update of mobile, I built <http://menuito.com> to help fix it.

We have really different approaches (hosted vs self hosted, control over looks vs needs a designed theme) but we're both trying to make something bad better. Best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey that looks really nice. I've actually done your exact business model for photography sites and made a pretty good chunk of change.

<comment><USER20> Nice! Photography sites came up during the product visioning as ones that suffer many of the same problems as restaurant sites, it's good to know something has happened in that area. Can I ask how you approached selling it? I'm still going one by one but also seeing interest from web developers looking to re-sell as part of their ongoing relationship with restaurant clients, which I want to support better.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, we do all sorts of websites for different types of photographers (see my profile for links) so we had an existing client base and a pretty good audience in the industry in general.

When the iPhone first came out, I jumped on it and created some simple pages/scripts that could be uploaded (along with some directions for detection/redirection). We sold a good amount of those for $79.

Now we just offer them as part of our overall website offering (and it's a full web app similar to cilantro here).

<comment><USER20> I like that you moved early on it. I was pretty hesitant before jumping in to build Menuito and wish I did it a year earlier, but isn't that often the way :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I like the idea, but I'd love to see links to more sample sites. Some minor feedback:

Only 12 menu items with the free plan? That makes the feature totally useless no?

I'd think that if you allow one menu, it should be one complete menu.

Also think about allowing other ways to get the menu, such as via a menu site (menu-pages link), or by uploading a pdf (I know it's horrid)

</comment><comment><USER22> I really like the idea but I think the premium plan is too expensive. Those who would want these are restaurants that cannot afford its website because of money, time or both.

This maybe a temporary solution for restaurants while they wait to build their own.

There are services like Letseat.at & GrabMyTable that has more features and cheaper price.

<comment><USER23> I disagree; I think the free plan is too cheap. The free plan seems to offer almost everything most restaurants would need. Why would they move to the premium plan? It offers more locations and menus which is probably only relevant if you're a chain.

It's a good service, so why would you not charge money for it? My guess is most restaurant owners would be happy to pay for a good website without the hassle.

<comment><USER22> My point is relative to what the competitors are offering. It's not cheap.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Are you really set on keeping it a single page site? I can understand the simplicity of it but if you know small business men, they want ease of use and a lot of control too.

I can see some scenarios like showing decor, pictures for each menu item, banquet hall facilities etc where they would want more than a single page.

</comment><comment><USER25> I think this is great. I was able to, half drunk. Setup a website for a fictional burger shop in a Podunk town in Wisconsin. With no forced registration.

I think you have a promising product here and the experience is tight enough that with solid marketing, smaller restaurants will flock to this.

</comment><comment><USER26> "There's absolutely no risk and it's completely free to get started."

IMO, That sentence is too verbose, especially with the title above it. Since 'Risk' is in the title, I would change it to: "(It's free!)"

</comment><comment><USER27> I love it! But your roadmap doesn't include a reservation system? Isn't that like priority #2 after the address/opening hours info?

<comment><USER20> Reservations are tricky with restaurants. Many of them have bought into Open Table or Urban Spoon, and with Open Table many of them feel trapped in something unaffordable. The market for reservations is currently owned by strong incumbents, and the customer is wary of giving away control of a key aspect of their business.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Why don't you integrate an order system and for those not checking for orders add SMS notifications from Twilio

</comment><comment><USER29> once you click on one of the navigation links, theres no way to get to the top quickly other than scrolling. Should have a top link

</comment><comment><USER30> Why free?

</comment><comment><USER31> This is awesome. Link this to an easy way for restaurant goers to sign up for a mailing list, and I think restaurant owners will sign up for this kinda service. Great great idea that actually solves a problem. Let me know if you need any help marketing this.</comment>


Install Ruby 2.1, Rails and Passenger on Ubuntu - <AUTHOR> http://10kb.nl/blog/setup-and-keep-up-with-the-latest-versions-of-a-complete-rails-dev-stack

<comment><USER2> So I see a lot of guides like this (I have one myself), but none that are built on top of Chef-solo/Ansible/Knife.

Which makes me wonder, which is the correct way which _lends itself to automation_ and doesn't depend on AWS/AMI?

</comment><comment><USER3> Choose OpenBSD for your Unix needs. OpenBSD -- the world's simplest and most secure Unix-like OS. The world's most used SSH implementation OpenSSH, the world's most elegant firewall PF, the world's most elegant mail server OpenSMTPD. OpenBSD -- the cleanest kernel, the cleanest userland and the cleanest configuration syntax.

Also, [http://puma.io/](http://puma.io/).

<comment><USER4> This sounds like a bad spam post.

<comment><USER3> With Linux, it's lot of beating around the bush. Overcomplicated config files, a lot of disabling and removing of things one don't need, having to deal with a messy and outdated firewall. With OpenBSD, I'd just have to change a few config file lines and lo and behold have one of the most secure and well- thought out servers the world has ever seen.

Also, with the existence of Puma, I don't see why anybody would want to use Passenger.

<comment><USER5> At least with Linux I don't have to wait 6 hours for all my software to finish compiling. Think about all the trees that are unnecessarily cut down because of all that compiling. And support for Linux is _much_ easier to get than support for OpenBSD.

Also, this is why anybody would want to use Passenger over Puma: [https://github.com/phusion/passenger/wiki/Puma-vs-Phusion- Pa...](https://github.com/phusion/passenger/wiki/Puma-vs-Phusion-Passenger) (or vice versa, for that matter)

TLDR: Passenger takes a more holistic and integrated approach and is a lot easier to use. It has superior management and administration tools, superior robustness features, superior security features (e.g. sandboxing through user switching), better documentation, uses less memory, etc.

<comment><USER3> OpenBSD doesn't require compiling, it has precompiled packages just like Linux.

Yes, support for Linux is much more wide-spread, but that's due to marketing and not the quality of the OSes themselves.

As for Passenger vs Puma, no management and administration tool is more superior than the Unix commandline. Plus, you don't need fancy sandboxing features assuming your OS user account is properly secured in the first place.

You mention superior this and that, but I find it all hard to swallow as I know you guys go around spamming Puma-related articles and tutorials with stuff about Passenger.

<comment><USER5> OpenBSD only has a small number of precompiled packages, and usually extremely outdated. If you want to get _anything_ useful you have to compile ports. As for the question of whether Linux being widespread is due to marketing or quality: that is completely irrelevant. The fact that Linux _is_ more widespread is all that matters. We don't live in a theoretical world where only theoretical technical superiority is the only thing that matters.

You are right, no management and administration tool is more superior than the Unix command line. The thing is, Puma's Unix command line tooling is almost nonexistant. _All_ of Passenger's management and administration tools are command line tools.

You are also correct in that you don't need fancy software to do things for you when you can do all that stuff yourself. It's a bit like saying that Docker has no added value because you can setup LXC yourself. But it's not hard to imagine why so many people do find value in Docker.

As for spam: yes you are right, there have been times in the past when we were overly eager with promotion. I apologize for that, and we've since adjusted our strategy.

Having said that, our claims have always only been based on facts. For example: how do I find out what requests my Puma processes are currently handling, and how long they've been active? Where are the tools to query that information?

<comment><USER6> You have probably never even tried OpenBSD or you wouldn't even be saying this. You are saying factually incorrect things about OpenBSD, in fact blatantly false libelous lies. OpenBSD has a huge number of precompiled packages, the needs of the average user are probably covered with the available packages. The only thing I miss in OpenBSD is VirtualBox and the Android SDK other than that every other piece of software I used in Linux is available as a package. I can do the same things in OpenBSD as I can in Linux, music, videos, Libre Office, web browsing, programming, etc. Software is not extremely outdated, some packages do get a little outdated from release to release, this is barely noticeable and not a huge issue.

[http://www.openbsd.org/](http://www.openbsd.org/)

[https://stable.mtier.org/](https://stable.mtier.org/)

[http://openports.se/](http://openports.se/)

<comment><USER5> In fact I have multiple OpenBSD and FreeBSD virtual machines installed. I run them regularly to test software. But my OpenBSD installs are from several years ago so maybe things have changed nowadays. However, on FreeBSD 9, all the stuff I can get from pkg_add is old. I always end up having to compile from ports. Years ago I had a FreeBSD 6 server. Ports updates always ended up breaking things (in addition to taking forever to compile) so I switched away from FreeBSD at some point.

I'm not saying that there are no software for OpenBSD. I'm not saying that OpenBSD is not capable of running lots of stuff. I'm saying that for anything recent, you often end up having to compile software from source, which wastes CPU. I'm saying that if things go wrong then finding someone who can provide support is much harder than with Linux.

<comment> c-bayprogrammer > I'm saying that for anything recent, you often end up having to compile > software from source...

With regards to OpenBSD, your statement is factually incorrect. Most packages are up to date with OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not OpenBSD. Users of OpenBSD are discouaraged from compiling direclty from ports unless they have a good reason (and 99% of the time there is not a good reason.)

<comment><USER5> Interesting, I guess my exposure to OpenBSD has been too limited.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I never knew about CheckInstall: a utility that tracks all the files modified during "make install" and creates a Debian package for them. That's just great! Bonus: you can then use the package it creates to install on other machines. [https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall](https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall)

</comment><comment><USER5> Rather than installing Ruby 2.1 from source using rbenv, it is also possible to install Ruby 2.1 using APT, by using the Brightbox PPA: [https://launchpad.net/~brightbox/+archive/ruby- ng](https://launchpad.net/~brightbox/+archive/ruby-ng) The Phusion Passenger APT packages are compatible with the Brightbox Ruby packages.

<comment><USER8> This. I'm so grateful to Brightbox for having relieved me from the rvm/rbenv madness. Same painless packages on both development and production. Priceless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> That's a great guide! We realized that a lot of people were spending a lot of time on stuff like this, and that's why we built Cloud 66. We help you to deploy and manage your applications on any cloud (ie. DigitalOcean, AWS, Rackspace etc) - feel free to check us out [http://cloud66.com](http://cloud66.com)

Disclaimer: I work for Cloud 66

</comment><comment><USER10> This write up is something that I've been looking for. Some folks at the local Rails meetups have also told me about Dokku, which facilitates deployment for sure, but I'm left wondering what the ramifications/disadvantages of an automated process (like Dokku and I guess Heroku) vs a "proper" setup like this one described.

</comment><comment><USER11> I can attest that the ruby-build project is a huge lifesaver. If you need to build an experimental ruby, it's the way to go. You can install it completely out of the system path. I really appreciate the effort that was put into it because it probably saved me about a week of work.

</comment><comment><USER12> One of those site that doesn't work if you block Google Analytics.

</comment><comment><USER13> I find chruby ([https://github.com/postmodern/chruby](https://github.com/postmodern/chruby)) to be a much nicer alternative to rbenv nowadays.

<comment><USER3> I can definitely vouch for that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Bad firewalling advice imo. Use ubuntu's ufw. Admittedl, ufw feels _more_ difficult if you already know iptables, but it's way more robust than the example given there.

<comment><USER15> Would it have made this guide longer? If so, you're adding unnecessary complexity for what it essentially a beginner guide (says so in the title).

<comment><USER14> It would have made it shorter, and much simpler. Only iptables nerds will find ufw harder.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to decide when to do something? - <AUTHOR> You're writing up some instructions you are going to use later and the word 'positivity' is marked with a red line by your editor indicating it's not a word. Do you go off to google to learn more about the definition of the word and related words ?
You're adding a new feature that your business partner and a customer have asked to be completed for review/testing by tomorrow. As you're coding you notice that a library class that's used in various places is miss-named. Do you refactor it or do you add it to a list of stuff to do later ? I worry if I don't do it now it might never get done, yet that one little side street of improvement can lead to noticing another 2 things that need to be improved, which in turn ...
I find it demotivating to see code that I know should be improved but if I jump into refactoring working code I worry about breaking functionality and not progressing with features fast enough.
All feedback appreciated. <comment><USER2> I do two things

* Log anything and everything that feels like it needs to be done. You can't always add every bit of info but everytime logging something new, I do as much as time allows me to.

* Have regular meetings (every two weeks on a wednesday seems to be working great so far) with the whole team to talk about issues that already exist and the new ones that came.

The team can together decide what's worth fixing, help you understand what's not (at least for now).

I've learned everything the hard way so I'm not sure if this is accurate but I believe this is process is also called as backlog management in the agile world.</comment>


CLOUD Act, Tucked into Omnibus, Likely to Derail Supreme Court Tech Privacy Case - <AUTHOR> https://www.npr.org/2018/03/28/597444394/a-needle-in-a-legal-haystack-could-sink-a-major-supreme-court-privacy-case <comment><USER2> Can someone explain why riders are even allowed on a budget bill?

</comment><comment><USER3> If I understand correctly, warrants must be served unchallenged as long as there is no mutual treaty with the originating country? What incentive would then be left for the government to negotiate those?</comment>


Dropbox and Box are the incumbents ripe to be disrupted - <AUTHOR> A decade ago, our digital life started to expand with photos and documents. A single personal computer started to expand to tablets, phones and laptops. We like to see the same photo or document from phone to tablet to laptop. Dropbox solved this problem with a centralized storage where we can dump all our files and access them from wherever we want. To make it a viable business model, a subscription service got attached to storage size. We started dumping all our photos, documents, scanned receipts, photocopies into different folders.
The problem we face today is very different. Some of the important documents such as scanned receipts, tax returns documents are also dumped into the same folders. It is difficult to search and find them. Literally it is like searching a needle in haystack. Sharing the document with the right person is also difficult. We make yet another copy of downloading the document and emailing to share it. Once emailed, the document gets shared for ever without owners' control. Researchers found many corporate sensitive data was shared without knowledge. Check this article published by Adversis. (https://www.adversis.io/research/pandorasbox)
While Dropbox, box and google drive helped solve storing and sharing our digital lives, the innovation has stalled. Monthly subscriptions and ever growing storage size is not the only option.
At proofbox, we turned it around and looked at with a different lens. what if we provide a transaction based service to store and retrieve important documents only and that is tracked in blockchain? Users pay only transaction fee and no monthly subscription cost. checkout https://www.proofbox.io and provide your feedback. <comment><USER2> It is already being disrupted. Filecoin does this exact same thing along with a bunch of other new blockchains. Do you have a beta net out yet? It says sign up, but that doesn't seem smart. Now, instead of facebook selling my data... I just sign up with you and the whole world can see the blockchain, correlate content with devices, and make it easier for governments and cooperations to use individuals data for advertising, tracking, and censorship?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your reply. yes we have a working version. Data is encrypted and hash is stored in blockchain. no data/content leak.

<comment><USER2> Where is the blockchain explorer? Is it your own blockchain or are you just a dapp? And you are still leaking information.

<comment><USER3> It's running on the Ethereum blockchain from what I can see on their homepage.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's right. It is running ethereum. Serial number or unique number that identifies any physical item such as laptop has that number printed on the bottom. Having serial number stored in blockchain is similar to printing serial number in the back of an item.

<comment><USER2> So... it is either centralized or everyone can track your content and device.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>