Numworks: open-source, Python-compatible handheld graphing calculator - <AUTHOR> https://www.numworks.com/ <comment><USER2> You may want to check out:

The whole calculator running in a browser, thanks to emscripten : [https://www.numworks.com/simulator/](https://www.numworks.com/simulator/)

An interactive PCB viewer, in the browser again : [https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/hardware/elec...](https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/hardware/electrical/pcb/)

Full schematics [https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/hardware/elec...](https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/hardware/electrical/schematics/)

And of course the whole source code to the operating system, [https://github.com/numworks/epsilon](https://github.com/numworks/epsilon)

</comment><comment><USER3> It should be pointed out that this is Micropython, not the Python that you are probably used to. Micropython is great stuff, I'm a huge fan, but it is different from CPython in noticeable ways.

They seem to have simply copied a source snapshot over; I'm not sure what that means for incorporating updates and fixes to the Python system. Maybe they needed a fork for some reason. I do wish their documentation gave a little more credit to the Micropython project.

<comment><USER4> The device does appear to be capable of receiving updates: [https://workshop.numworks.com](https://workshop.numworks.com)

Concur on the credit thing though.

<comment><USER3> Yes, you can update the device. My comment was more about how Numworks can practically integrate Micropython updates. It seems like maybe it could be a Git submodule so that changes were easier to merge. Tracking Micropython bug fixes and enhancements is going to be very labor intensive unless I am missing something here.

(Admittedly, I didn't spend a lot of time nosing around Numwork's source repo. I _have_ spent a lot of time nosing around the Micropython repo to do my own tweaked builds.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you care about calculation/typing efficiency, you might also want to check out RPN (reverse polish notation).

I am recommending the HP 35s. Once you are used to the notation, it is a real pleasure, not only for old-school advocates like me. Added bonus: you will gain respect for stack-based languages like Forth, Factor etc.

<comment><USER6> I tried the HP35s of a friend for a few days. It is globally a nice RPN calculator and not too expensive for starting. But I don't want to get one because this calculator have a quite long list of known bugs [1] that have been sitting there for more than 10 years now, and HP hasn't fixed anything yet!

If you are a grown-up children like me and just want a pretty expensive toy, I can recommend the SwissMicros DM42 [2] (I'm not related to them in any way, just a happy customer). The made an adaptation of the HP42s for the modern world: «34 decimal digits of precision, with exponents ranging from -6143 to +6144», based on the excellent Thomas Okken's Free42 [3], big and nice screen, USB connection for loading/saving programs, save and restore of the calculator state, and so on!

And being based on Free42 you can get the emulator on your phone and share the programs with the calculator. You then have the same "calculator" everytime with you, no need to get used to another program/interface on your phone.

[1] [http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi- sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cg...](http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi- sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=735) [2] [https://www.swissmicros.com/dm42.php](https://www.swissmicros.com/dm42.php) [3] [http://thomasokken.com/free42/](http://thomasokken.com/free42/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It's always amazed me how, in 2018, TI calculators with software and hardware from 10 years ago still cost $100+ dollars [0] and command a near monopoly in US secondary schools (which, I suppose, is why they still cost that much). For that price you can get a significantly more powerful and functional mobile phone [1] (see 24K of ram vs. 2GB, 96x64 screen vs. 720 x 1280)!

The space needs competition, and I hope Numworks gives TI a run for their money (the calculator is even allowed on the big standard exams), but schools are so standardized on TI calculators (and generally slow-moving) that change will be hard. Casio has also tried to break into this space with significantly cheaper calculators (which are also allowed on standardized exams), but they have failed to gain significant traction so far.

A relevant XKCD (of course): [https://xkcd.com/768/](https://xkcd.com/768/)

A related piece of journalism: [https://wapo.st/1Cl0Vyf](https://wapo.st/1Cl0Vyf)

[0]: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001EMM0G/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0001EMM0G/)

[1]: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H2E0KVA/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H2E0KVA/)

<comment><USER8> More like hardware from 20 years. Yeah I hope the TI monopoly gets broken. Numworks looks exactly like the calculator I was dreaming about when I was in uni.

<comment><USER9> Actually, more like hardware from 40 years ago. The Z80 processor was released in like the mid 70s.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It's not open source; the Hacker News headline is wrong. The Numworks web site does not claim it's open source, by the way -- the problem is only in the headline here. The license is Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial ShareAlike (CC-BY-NC-SA), and the presence of the "NonCommercial" clause makes it unambiguously non-open-source. If that clause were not present, CC-BY-SA would still be an odd license to use for software anyway, but because of the NC clause we never get to that issue.

<comment><USER11> Source appear to be on GitHub. Non commercial is not incompatible with open source. It makes sense to me that to get the investment required to fund this, you'd want sole rights to commercialize. Nothing prevents someone else from building a cheaper DIY version as long as they don't sell it. For example it could be a local college class exercise to build these from scratch for local high school. That's not imaginable for the TI calculators (which these seem to aim to replace)

<comment><USER10> Source being on GitHub does not equal "is open source". Restrictions on commercial use _are_ incompatible with open source. The Open Source Initiative, which coined the term and evaluates licenses for compatibility with the Open Source Definition (see [https://opensource.org/definition](https://opensource.org/definition)), is crystal clear on this point: if your license has a field-of-use restriction -- such as a restriction on commercial use -- then it's not open source. This is why Numworks is careful not to describe their software as "open source", to their credit.

<comment><USER12> It may not be "Free Source", but if the source is open in the sense if being accessable, then for normal people it is open source. One organization using words in a specific way, doesn't negate all other legit interpretations of those words.

It's an unsolvable problem they created there.

<comment><USER13> Nope. Open Source is a trademark precisely to avoid this sort of misuse. It's not a "what it means to whomever" sort of deal.

That was done in part due to intentional (and damaging, if ultimately unsuccessful) efforts to undermine the meaning of terms like 'Free Software' by Microsoft back when the FSF was a fledgling movement and Microsoft was an evil empire.

I don't mean to imply negative things about the company. The license is still a heck of a lot better than fully proprietary -- I love the product in part for that reason -- but it's definitely not 'open source' or 'free software' as the headline implies.

(I don't think the company claims it is either)

<comment><USER12> I'm talking about casual language-usage, like this headline, not commercial usage. Open and source are regular words, and they still are regular words when used together. Trademarks can't force people to talk as they want, it can only force company to not sell everything as they wish.

<comment><USER10> Yes, the term can't be trademarked, because they're both common English words used in combination (and that combination has a somewhat older, unrelated meaning, which further contributes to making the term untrademarkable).

But this isn't a trademark issue. No one has trademarked the word "carrots" either, but if someone were to sell pencils under the label "carrots", people would be understandably confused and annoyed.

It's the same thing here: don't call it open source if it's not. The software industry relies on that term having a specific, well-defined meaning. That meaning is _widely_ agreed on, which, again, is why Numworks themselves is not claiming their stuff is open source.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Personally I feel like clamshell design would make lots of sense for these more advanced calculators. At the same footprint you could have lot bigger screen, and more/bigger buttons. As an added bonus the screen would be more readable when sitting on a desk. I wouldn't think the marginally added thikness would impact much something thats being carried around in backbacks most of time anyways.

For some reason practically no calculators seem to have used clamshell design. Does anyone know why?

Closest example I know of would be HP 200LX, but it is a full-blown computer so it doesn't fit the requirements for education market. Looking at this side by side picture with a graphing calculator, it is not difficult to imagine the calculator keys being transplanted to 200LX to make a nifty new device.

[https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HFcfXoM.png](https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HFcfXoM.png)

<comment><USER15> Casio have produced some. This old one: [http://www.voidware.com/calcs/images/fx451m-1.jpg](http://www.voidware.com/calcs/images/fx451m-1.jpg) There's been others since with the same basic design. They all seem to fail at the fold because there is no hinge or much protection at the fold.

There was a pocket computer from a slightly earlier era [http://pocket.free.fr/html/casio/fx-5200p_e.html](http://pocket.free.fr/html/casio/fx-5200p_e.html)

Trying to find an image of those I stumbled across the fx-9860G Slim that seems to be current: [https://www.casio.com/resource/images/press/fx-9860gslim_pre...](https://www.casio.com/resource/images/press/fx-9860gslim_press.jpg)

<comment><USER14> fx-9860G Slim matches exactly what I was imaging. Very cool. Shame that it apparently was somewhat short-lived in the market (explains why I've never heard of it). I'm half-tempted to fish one out from ebay.

There was also apparently fx-7500G in somewhat similar form-factor.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> While the calculator itself seems really cool, I'm really perplexed by this design.

I see little point to advertising it as something that can input and execute python if it takes you at least 5 minutes to type

`for i in range(10): print(i)`

<comment><USER17> I think this tradeoff was to keep it compatible with Collegeboard's (archaic) calculator policies, which forbid keyboards. [1] Being able to market the calculator as SAT-approved is probably super valuable since most students won't buy multiple calculators.

[1]: [https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/takingtheexam/exam- polici...](https://apstudent.collegeboard.org/takingtheexam/exam- policies/calculator-policy)

<comment><USER18> It'd be pretty tough to use it on the SAT if you take most of the allotted time trying to type out a function.

<comment><USER19> While you're right about how long it takes to type a function on a calculator like this, this calculator is a huge step up from the TIs kids use on the SAT right now.

<comment><USER18> That's valid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Virtually everyone that would own one of these already has a smartphone with more computational power, where an app can be made, or already exists, that does all of these functions or more.

Is the only reason for this to exist for use on a standardized test?

<comment><USER19> Not only are standardized tests (and thus preparatory high school tests) stringent against cell phone use, but companies such as TI have had a monopoly on the market for a long time. It's great to see a competitor that uses a more modern underlying language, that costs as much or less than the TIs do. I really hope this calculator or something similar starts to catch on at secondary schools in the U.S.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> No RPN, no deal, sadly.

Have a look at the Swiss Micros DM-42L, it's a thing of beauty.

<comment><USER22> Looks remarkably similar to HP calculators. Is this deliberate and is there some connection between them an HP? If I had just seen the picture and not seen the name on it I would have assumed it was HP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is one of the best crafted website on the internet.

</comment><comment> ju-st Does it run Doom and Pokemon like its TI competitors?

<comment><USER24> Found a video of an NES emulator running on it[1], so... Probably. It's quite a bit faster than the common TIs and Casios.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVeut56AJU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVeut56AJU)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> how does this compare in terms of capabilities, prices etc with existing alternatives such as TI, etc?

</comment><comment><USER26> "It is also permitted for use on the SAT by the College Board starting with the August 2018 administration."

That's ridiculous. Privatized standard testing seems like a bad deal for folks who can't afford these expensive calculators.

<comment><USER11> The point is that schools will only buy bunches of these things for teaching if they're approved for use on the exams.

<comment><USER26> The point is that it seems flawed that these are approved for exams, not that this isn't a good business decision on the part of the company advertised here.</comment></comment></comment>


Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat's plant-based burgers aren't healthier - <AUTHOR> https://www.businessinsider.com/beyond-burger-vs-impossible-burger-vs-fast-food-burger-nutrition-2019-6 <comment><USER2> Speaking as somebody who does enjoy a vegan boiger - 'health' and 'nutrition' are not things I'm looking at when I want a burger.

This whole debate is one big straw-man. I'm a vegan. I don't need burgers. I might _want_ burgers, but they don't form a part of a standard diet just in the same way any kind of burger probably shouldn't form part of anybody's regular diet.

If you're eating processed food - there's a considerable chance that whatever it is you're eating - vegan or otherwise - is neither nutritious nor healthy. It probably tastes good though, which is why you want it in the first place.

Ultimately it boils down to this: if I'm eating a burger, then nutrition and health are more or less irrelevant - I'm after taste. I think the lives of animals are more important than my taste-buds, so I eat plant-based burgers. It's not really any more complicated than that.

<comment><USER3> Precisely.

And if you have enough veggies and vegans around you, you know that they can eat as much junk food as everyone else.

Sugar is vegan, after all.

<comment><USER4> I don't know many skinny vegetarians. Eating nothing but carbs and butter is vegetarian and extremely unhealthy.

<comment><USER5> There are plenty of super high protein vegetatian and vegan options available. Many nuts, and pulses are in the same ballpark as even red meat.

Consider that most people aren't strictly carnivorous, and are usually pairing a burger with 600 calories of fries, and a 400 calorie bun, which is all carb.

<comment><USER6> Nothing is in the same ballpark as red meat in terms of nutrition density and bioavailability.

<comment><USER5> A beef steak is about 270 calories for 30g of protein, cooked lentils are about 22g for the same number of calories. I'm not researched enough in bioavailability to comment on that part.

For an 80kg man, the "recommended" protein intake is about 64g, the difference in calories is fairly minute (assuming you compare 100% meat vs 100% lentils). If you're training/weightlifting and following the advice of 2-3g per kg of bodyweight, you're almost certainly going to supplement your protein intake anyway. Protein supplements are 2-3x the density of red meat, and available in vegan options if that's your thing.

<comment><USER6> The bioavailability of protein from lentils is about 60%. So your cherrypicked comparison has about 50% of the useful protein content of beef.

Macronutrients are not the entire picture. If you look into micronutrients you'll find all of the essentials in beef, some are not found at all in plant sources.

Be careful about all fda recommendations, they were heavily influenced by lobbying from the sugar / grain / cereal industry and are not being updated in step with science.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My wife and I really enjoy both IF and BM burgers - just be sure to not overlook them!

They do contain a lot of fat from vegetable oil but they are very low in cholesterol. I will trade more sodium for the advantages for me of reducing cholesterol.

They really taste good. We like them on good rolls, purple onion, tomato, lettuce, and whatever sauce we feel like. Fantastic tasting burgers.

There is also the advantages of not killing animals. My wife and I have just spent two years living in Illinois (returning home to Sedona Arizona next week) and our rented home is beside a pasteur and let me tell you that cows run around like dogs, playing together, and generally have different personalities - we notice which ones tend to start the running around playing/games and which ones join in after the game starts. I think most people in order to make themselves feel better imagine cows and steers as being dumb animals with no soul or consciousness. Not so. I am not a strict vegetarian, but personally I feel better about reducing my meat intake.

<comment><USER8> I didn't do any history research on the subject but my own conspiracy theory suggests that the whole "humans have soul, animals don't" thing was invented to justify the natural world destruction.

<comment><USER9> Animals have killed other animals for food since the dawn of life. You can't get more"natural" than that. Eating meat is hardly a human invention.

<comment><USER10> The problem is not eating meat. The problem is the horrors of factory farming, which is as "unnatural" as it gets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> 1\. Surely there are other chemical compounds that are present in the fast food meats and not the plant based meats, and vice versa, but that aren't listed in the article's table.

2\. The plant-based meats are intended to imitate real meat as much as possible, and I would imagine an intuitive way to do this is to include the same amount of ingredients as on the table presented.

3\. "Healthiness" is probably unfortunately best measured through a large and well intentioned study, and not objectively by comparing a limited list of ingredients.

<comment><USER9> I know for a fact that McDonald's beef burgers, at least in North America, have a single ingredient: beef. They go directly from source grind to patty maker to freezer, nothing is added.

<comment><USER11> Sorry, I meant that the chemical makeup of beef is distinct from that of plants. I wasn't referring to additives. I meant the proteins/enzymes, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I didn't even realize that the companies mission was to create a product that was "healthier." I always assumed that it was to create something that was more sustainable...

</comment><comment><USER13> Their goal was to make a 100% plant-based alternative to meat that tastes like meat.

Plenty of other reasons to not eat meat. Humaneness toward animals? climate change?

Also, regardless of above, not 100% onboard with the premise. I'll be interested in long-term studies. Impossible has been around less than 10 years.

</comment><comment><USER14> Veganism is not a health choice for most vegans, it's an ethical one. Plant- based foods use fewer resources per calorie and do not require cruel treatment of animals.

<comment><USER15> > Plant-based foods use fewer resources per calorie and do not require cruel > treatment of animals.

They kind of have to at some point, otherwise you're using artificial nitrogen to top up the soil and that's not just bad for the soil but is also depleting a limited resource (The nitrogen comes from what IIRC is, a single mine).

I remember reading about some farmers that managed to buck the usual statistics by getting around half a thousand chickens to an acre of farmland -- the chickens acted as a natural form of pest-control for the farmland, and their shit and corpses (when they died) provided a natural source for the NPK needed to feed the soil.

The thing is, vegans forget that plants, etc. have all evolved with death as part of the equation. Animal death is required in some form, to supply the micro-organisms in the soil with the proper nutrients. Anyone who has studied farming and agriculture knows that the ideal isn't to eliminate animal death (something that is pretty much impossible unless you want to destabilize the ecosystem and starve your plants), but try to minimize it and ensure that the death is not wasted.

I think this mistake in understanding goes back to school, where children are taught that if you give plants soil, water and sunlight, they will grow. They could take that opportunity to talk about the NPK cycle, the billions of micro-organisms in the soil that need to be fed to provide the plants with nutrients, the fact that dead animals help feed the plants and the micro- organisms, etc. Not teaching children about this when children are capable of understanding it is a disservice given that for many people that is the _only_ schooling that they will ever have on farming and agriculture.

<comment><USER16> You realize most of the atmosphere is Nitrogen, right? I would not call it a limited resource. Clovers and other cover crops also fix hydrogen.

<comment><USER17> Atmospheric nitrogen is very common. Nitrogen that is in a form that's usable by plants is not so common.

Many plants in the Fabaceae family, of which clover is a member, fix nitrogen, not hydrogen. I think that's what you probably meant.

<comment><USER16> Yeah I meant to say nitrogen but said hydrogen

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "Barclays concluded that when it comes to plant-based citizens, many are "thinking that they are healthier than what they really are.""

I'm assuming this was retranslated --from burger to citizen

<comment><USER19> Spell checks for fat fingers seem more likely if you compare the first 3 letters of each word: C and B - one key away, I abd U - neighbours, T and R - neighbours, I and G - far away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> To me this conclusion does not fit with a few points: quality of fats, overall quantity of fat, protein quantity, and fiber.

I'm not making any overarching conclusion about what is healthier, but I do think the article's conclusion is pretty weak.

</comment><comment><USER21> I mean this is obvious, right? Salads on fast-food menus have more fat and other "bad stuff" than burgers thanks to cheese, dressing etc. Your FF faux burger is still fried, cheesed, sauced etc. Next please.

</comment><comment> 52-6F-62 I'm pretty sure this was already known and talked about.

I think the reason it's reiterated is many people do associate "no meat" with "more healthy", whether it's in error or not. (There's even a big fad here in TO of fatty deep fried vegan foods!)

The article is likely not tuned or intended for the audience of HN, but for people who don't pay attention to the details of nutrition more.

On a side note, I tried the Beyond Meat patty when they showed up at my grocery out of curiosity. It caused me _terrible_ GI problems for about 3 days. Never again for me (sparing any details). Only suggestion I could find as to why was potentially the high amount of canola oil. That and I rarely eat processed foods, so I'm not sure how much that was a factor.

</comment><comment><USER22> > _Nutrition is a major reason that people are giving plant-based burger a > try_

Not really sure about that. Current meat "production" involves destroying the planet at an accelerated pace while treating animals in the most horrible way imaginable (and even beyond imagination).

<comment><USER23> I think saying "a major reason" is fair and accurate, but I agree that the it seems people are, in general, much more concerned about the ethics of industrial farming as it relates to animal cruelty, as well as beef being such a large contributor to co2.

<comment><USER24> While I think that's true for many people, I would like to have actual data about whether the wide public is more swayed by environmental/ethical or health concerns. Many companies are marketing this from a health angle, and they may know more than you and me. (Another possibility, which I'm not discounting, is that they think everyone is as cynical as they are.)

<comment><USER25> According to this survey, 68.1% of people's main reason for going vegan was "for the animals" while "health" was only 17.4%.

[https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go- vegan-2019-gl...](https://vomadlife.com/blogs/news/why-people-go- vegan-2019-global-survey-results)

That being said, the question was "What is the main reason" so people who said "for the animals" might also care a lot about health.

<comment><USER24> Going vegan (which I understand as deciding to only eat vegan from now on) is a much larger decision than just giving a plant-based burger a try in order to reduce your meat consumption somewhat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> There's more to "healthy" than calories and cholesterol. What a trash article.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, I was quite disappointed. Dietary cholesterol doesn't cause arterial cholesterol. "Fat" is a necessary nutrient, and there are different kinds -- polyunsaturated vegetable fats are different than saturated fat (found in beef); and even though saturated fat is considered "unhealthy", the actual scientific evidence for that designation is pretty shaky.

And then, what about fiber? What about the mix of proteins and amino acids? Vitamins and minerals -- in particular B vitamins, which are difficult to get from non-animal sources?

So much potential just to say, "It's got fat and salt, so it's just as bad."

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Why is this post even listed here? Business Insider is not a credible news source. They are a corrupt media organization owned by the shady Axel Springer SE. They have strong ties to powerful short sellers.

<comment><USER29> Then please flag it and move on.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> _Currently_ plant-based burgers are not healthier but are nearing taste- equivalency, but surely it is easier to modify a plant-based burger recipe to increase "healthiness" than to modify a beef burger (make a healthier cow...?). [even mentioned at the end of this article]

So if they are health-equivalent, now compare the next variables: impact on climate, impact on animal welfare, etc.

</comment><comment><USER31> > Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods are continuing to tweak their recipes. The > Impossible Burger 2.0, for example, launched earlier this year and was > designed to be substantially healthier (and tastier) than the original, with > less fat and sodium.

The last sentence cancels the whole purpose of the article. Sodium is the main concern and new recipe use less sodium. Problem solved.

</comment><comment><USER32> Just like people don't eat burgers for health (with a side of fries or a supersized portion), these aren't primarily meant for health either. They could be a lot healthier than conventional burgers, and they certainly are when you look at the comparison chart.

> When it comes to calories, fat, and protein, the two options are pretty > similar. Plant-based burgers have less cholesterol...However, the plant- > based burgers tend to have more sodium...

Seriously, sodium is one thing that these brands could easily reduce, compared to other aspects, without compromising much on the taste. This article is a big nitpick on one tiny part.

Are these being marketed as being way healthier? I thought the main selling point of these alternatives is against climate change and the disastrous effect that current animal agriculture has on it (then come animal cruelty and health). We'd probably be better off if people like the author adopt these alternatives and cut their sodium intake from other foods.

</comment><comment><USER33> This article makes a false equivalence between being low calorie and being healthy. The challenge for many vegans (and vegetarians) is getting enough energy each day, so it's actually healthy for plant based options to be highly caloric.

<comment><USER34> I agree with the first sentence, but the second one makes no sense to me.

Loads of energy in pasta/noodels, rice, potato, plant based oils etc etc. Getting all amino acids and various nutrients in sufficient amount sure, that is a problem. Energy is not.

<comment><USER33> The issue is not that high calorie vegan and vegetarian foods don't exist, it's an issue of convenience. Fast food restaurants, for all the hate they get, are really important sources of food for people who are too busy to cook. Unlike normal people, vegans can't just stop at a chain restaurant and order a filling meal. Most vegans I know have to be exceedingly deliberate to make sure they eat enough because it's so hard to find affordable vegan food unless you cook it yourself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> And they're really great with swiss and mushrooms with a side of garlic fries.

Speaking as somebody who isn't even the slightest bit vegetarian, at near enough the same price as a regular low-end-to-average burger, I'll order it instead because they taste better and have slightly better mouth feel to me.

It doesn't beat a really high-end burger yet, but those are usually more expensive than even an IF or BM choice.

To be honest though, I support them because I want to support the general concept of high-end science being applied to food. After all, if we ever get off this rock and up into the stars, this is likely to become the direction our food comes from.

</comment><comment><USER36> Whether intentionally or no, Kate Taylor is doing the meat industry's work for them. Pretty much nobody seems to think that plant-based burgers are interesting primarily because they're healthier. See any other top-level comment for examples. Who benefits from a story putting plant-based burgers in a bad light by "refuting" a claim nobody made or cared about? There are many answers, but "the public in general" is not one. Even if the effect is not deliberate, this kind of click-bait seems a bit irresponsible.

<comment><USER37> Per the article, most consumers are interested in plant burgers specifically for health concerns. I don't understand why you'd dismiss that as irrelevant. And unless this article is factually incorrect, the reporting is entirely fair. You can't get mad because you don't like it.

<comment><USER36> Per the article, which cites one highly dubious data point to support that claim.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Reasons I'd eat (more) vegetarian

1\. Climate

2\. Ethics

...

10\. Nutrition/Health

</comment><comment><USER39> I'm not a vegan, never had IF or BM, but I believe that if they taste as good as the real thing, they will be healthier for mother earth. It takes a lot of resources to raise beef.

</comment><comment><USER40> They weren't meant to be and never claimed to be. You aren't going to replicate a beef patty without a ton of fat.

</comment><comment><USER41> I hate to attack the messenger but businessinsider is an affiliate based site that generates revenue with clickbait titles.

</comment><comment><USER42> Oh. They have some extra salt.

Well I'm sure glad this make it to the front page to stimulate my intellectual curiosity.</comment>


Unimog – Cloudflare's edge load balancer - <AUTHOR> https://blog.cloudflare.com/unimog-cloudflares-edge-load-balancer/?a <comment><USER2> Really interesting article.

Comment though ... I'm surprised Cloudflare isn't concerned about being sued over using the name "Unimog" and having the load balancer icon be a Truck, given that Unimog is an actual company who manufacturers trucks.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unimog](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unimog)

<comment><USER3> That was also my first reaction when I saw their choice of name for this. Daimler-Benz owns Unimog, I'm sure they have plenty of lawyers hanging around ready to defend their intellectual property.

<comment><USER4> > That was also my first reaction when I saw their choice of name for this.

Same here, my first thought was "lawsuit in 3... 2... 1..."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Good article. But talks far more of how it works and far less about why existing alternatives were not good enough.</comment>


Is it a bad time to be a programmer? - <AUTHOR> https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-a-bad-time-to-be-a-programmer/answer/Alastair-Stell?share=46aae817&srid=XgcU <comment><AUTHOR> Do you agree? If so, how can programmers diverge from it?</comment>


Ask HN: How to find a marketing co-founder? - <AUTHOR> I'm a developer, working on a (saas) project.
I know that at some point I will need help of marketing person, but I know only developers.
So how to find a marketing co-founder?
Any advice will be appreciated. <comment><USER2> Talk to your developers, friends, etc. Tell them briefly what you are doing, and what sort of help you think you need. Keep it general - you're working on the technology side, you think you'd benefit from a trusted associate on the business side. But try to lean people's thinking away from MBAs - and away from sales or marketing communication - and more to market analysis.

Do you or your developer friends know people who have built businesses before? Talk to them.

No matter who you talk to, get used to saying something like "I really appreciate your time, who else do you think I should talk to? Do you have their number? Can I use your name?"

Also try to talk to the people who might use your service. Give them a brief overview of the problem you are trying to solve, let them tell you how it might or does not fit in to their world. Listen, and listen between the lines. Then do it again. If they seem interested, ask them how much such a service would save them in time, effort, or other forms of money.

Do NOT change your service based on one or even ten conversations, not until you understand the story between the lines. At least not right away.

If you need a sounding board, rather than a marketing associate, ask some of your trusted friends, technical and non-technical, if you can buy them drinks or dinner a couple of times a month and share what you've learned.

Practice duck testing (cf recent HN articles): You should be able to explain the idea and what you've heard from others to a rubber duck.

<comment><AUTHOR> thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> 1\. It's great that you are asking this question. Marketing is an essential part of any start up -- both from creating the product that the market wants and also in promoting it. As a marketer, it's not something I see enough of.

2\. Try LinkedIn, startup networking events, social media (Twitter is great to see who is in your area), blogs, etc. You can ask for recommendations as well. Once you have money, start looking at public relations and marketing firms because they often know the industry better, dealing with multiple clients and a staff full of marketers.

</comment><comment><USER4> Linkedin, go to local startup meetups or look on meetup for marketing groups that do meetups (there are TONS!).

If you have the connections ask your friends/colleagues/acquaintances for a referral to a marketer they know.

I'm a marketer and I focus on these channels heavily.

If you are able to manage well and are up for the challenge of negotiating, try one of the online co-founder matching sites. They match people from all over but the main issue is always finding someone that shares your passion and will work hard to make the startup live.

</comment><comment><USER5> To whom is your product addressed? Might be good to find a co-founder connected to the market you're targetting. As a co-founder, even technical, you need to understand your users and you'll have to sell your product, so networking in your target segment is something you have to do. Double benefit if you find your marketing co founder while doing customer development.

Edit: grammar

</comment><comment><USER6> Frequent marketing communities like moz.org, inbound.org, warriorforum etc and find a talented marketer. Reaching out is often a difficult but necessary thing to do.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm a marketer who is interested in learning about your SEO tool. At the very least I can give you feedback and ideas from a marketing perspective.

</comment><comment><USER8> What do you want your marketing cofounder to do?

<comment><AUTHOR> Focus on customers/networking/blog/social media etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> well, one way would be to pick someone from the many blogs that end up here. choose someone that has successful projects in their past, and did their own marketing. choose someone that has projects that you like, and you are happy with their writing style and the way the present the project and themselves.

</comment><comment><USER10> Could you give us some more information on your saas project? That might help figure out where to look.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's (another!) on page SEO tool with few unique features. Not a revolution, just a tool to solve few issues.

<comment><USER10> One thing you could do is ask for marketing help at various forums. For e.g. you could post it here as another Ask HN - "Ask HN: Help me market xyz.com". Apart from getting plenty of good marketing ideas, you might find your business co-founder.

Other forums I would look at are the ones focused on SEO like inbound.org, growthhackers, trafficplanet, BHW, WF etc

Also, put your email ID and the link to your tool in your HN profile. I'm sure there are plenty of people in SEO here who will be happy to help.

<comment><AUTHOR> good advice, thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It depends. What kind of marketing help do you need for your project at this point?

<comment><AUTHOR> Someone who could focus on everything (blog, landing pages, twitter etc.) except development, which is my thing.

<comment><USER11> Do you already have a marketing plan prepared? (And a business plan?)

<comment><AUTHOR> Sort of - yes.

<comment><USER11> The reason I ask is to see where you are with the project. If you're serious about it, you'll need more than some ideas jotted on the back of a napkin, and starting from that point is considerably more work than if the business and marketing plans already existed.

I can recommend a few things, depending on what your plans and goals are and, at the very least, some direction. If you'd like to shoot me an email for privacy purposes, I'm at musgrove<at>webdesignpopd0tc0m.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: A site to post and read code snippets and generate a PNG of the source - <AUTHOR> http://blinkofcode.com

<comment><USER2> Reminds me of [http://instacod.es/](http://instacod.es/)

<comment><USER3> It's a really cool front-end experiment, but I fail to grasp its usefulness.

[http://instacod.es/101573](http://instacod.es/101573)

<comment><USER2> Instacodes was made as a joke I think. It's like posting food photos on instagram, but for programmers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hey guys! This is a little project I've been working on and I was hoping to get some feedback. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

<comment><USER4> Nice and useful idea, but you need the snippets to be "live"; for example, enable comments and editing, so that snippets get validated/improved/curated over time. Links to relevant stack overflow questions would be great as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> There actually are comments. Making them "live" as you say is actually a really good idea it can be like a "proposed change" kind of thing where a user makes a change and people vote on it to see if it gets changed or not. If a certain amount of people vote for the cahnge then it replaces the old code.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nice concept.

Feedback: the code boxes are too big in the majority of cases, e.g. [http://blinkofcode.com/5590ed12c57dd447d43e5ad0](http://blinkofcode.com/5590ed12c57dd447d43e5ad0)

</comment><comment><USER6> You could probably chuck the sourcecode itself into a text segment of the png.

</comment><comment><USER7> Seems to be down right now.

<comment><AUTHOR> It doesn't seem to have gone down for me, it's possibly just taking a while to load for whatever reason.</comment></comment>


Digging Through the World's Oldest Graveyard - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/17/big-bangs/digging-through-the-worlds-oldest-graveyard

<comment><USER2> Is nautil.us really this popular? I see their posts all the time, but never with that many upvotes or comments. Sometimes they are posted by actual accounts. Other times they are posted by accounts like dnetesn that have a huge number of submissions, and zero comments.</comment>


On Losing Our First Hire - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/on-startups/c2da436ddb06

<comment><USER2> I really wonder if they lost their first hire because of the hectic hours, even though they mentioned they finally had breathing room. Employees don't just forget how bad it was when meeting those tough deadlines. Perks after the fact may just not work if they don't see the future being any different.

<comment><AUTHOR> I can't say you're wrong here. At the time, I lived for the long hours. It felt fulfilling and purposeful. It's hard to realize that everyone else around you might not feel the same way.

I think growth and the lack of defined future benefit also played a huge part here. Both are critical to job satisfaction.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Could my language reading & learning site become a startup? - <AUTHOR>

I've launched an early version of my language learning webapp which I plan to charge a subscription for once it's out of beta.
http://readlang.com
Today the developer of a similar open source tool doubted that I'd make enough money to pay for the time I'd spend.
The quote and my response are at http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35462&PN=1&TPN=5 - messages 34 and 35 respectively
What do you think? Do you think this site (once ready) and subscription model could be profitable? <comment><AUTHOR> The relevant bits of forum discussion:

\--- Quote LWT ---

I don't think that you will make a lot money out of such a language learning website. IMHO you will never earn so much money that all the hours of work will ever get paid.

From my LWT Project, I can only say that I worked on it about five full months fulltime (around 1200 hours) in total. If one wants to earn about 30 Euros per hour, which is a rather low "IT salary", that would be 36,000 Euros. You need 300 customers paying 120 Euros per annum to have the initial investment payed. And that's only the beginning. There are server costs, you need a service desk, etc.

\--- My response ---

Thanks for your honest opinion. You may well be right, it's the first time I've started a venture like this, and it's a bit of an experiment with no serious downside if it happens to fail.

My goals are relatively modest, I don't need it to make a _lot_ of money, your example of 36000 Euros per year actually sounds pretty good, especially since this could continue even if I wasn't improving the site. (In reality though, I have enough ideas that I'll _definitely_ continue to improve it if it gets to that stage!) I'm thinking of charging something more like 1 or 2 euros per month, or more for more advanced features, since I think this is what I'd probably be willing to pay for such a service. So to reach your example numbers I'd need 3000 paying customers! But there are a huge number people in the world who could benefit from this, especially if it runs well on smart phones and tablets, and has easier access to content than it does currently. Am I deluded? :)

Server costs should be pretty low, since a lot of the work is being done client side in the browser, and the back end is pretty lightweight, a JSON API running on Node.js and MongoDB.

</comment><comment><USER2> Hey Steve,

the language reader market is currently a bit saturated with open-source and paid alternatives.

However, I looked at your site. I'm a linguist with some expertise in web development (<http://hanzicraft.com>, <http://polyglotlink.com> and some other sites under my belt).

I really like the idea of a quick importing using a bookmarklet. My main language that I'm learning is Chinese as this market has MANY options (<http://3000hanzi.com>, <http://chineselevel.com>, <http://lingq.com>, <http://duable.com>, LWT). It's hard to choose. I particularly enjoy ChineseLevel mainly because I know the developer, so I'm biased.

In any case, I think it's possible to get at least some income with your startup. To make it a full-time job is something else and depends on your needs. Because the language reader market is saturated, you'll have to set yourself apart from open source and paid alternatives. At the moment I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I'll be trying your site to learn a bit of Spanish and French (I'm a language learning addict).

I can help you with some more advice and testing if you want. I can also give you some linguistic advice if it comes up. Send me an email: email@example.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your thoughts.

You're right there's a lot of activity in this space, language learning tools seem to be a common itch that developers like to scratch :)

I think Readlang's unique position is that it provides a very streamlined workflow compared to the alternatives, it tries to remove unnecessary friction and lets you concentrate on either reading or learning. e.g. to do something similar to Readlang with other tools you may need:

\- LWT (the user needs to run the server software themselves with XAMPP or similar) + Anki

\- LingQ (seems OK, but a bit expensive ($10 / month) and personally I think the UI has too much clutter, and I don't like having all the words I know/don't know highlighted in the text, it distracts me from enjoying the content)

\- Manually switching between tabs when reading to translate and build flashcards in Anki or similar

Maybe there are other tools that I'm not aware of. Thanks for your links, I especially like the idea of chineselevel.com and I've been thinking along these lines for Readlang - estimating the users proficiency based on the words they translate and suggesting content of the appropriate difficulty. My big missing link at the moment is built in content on the site, I'll probably look into finding good public domain / creative commons content soon.

I'll send you a personal mail now...

Edit: one of your links may contain a typo: <http://duable.com/> \- this URL is for a brand advertising company

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Maybe ... I'm not looking to learn a foreign language right now, so aren't the target market.

But my first thought was that this appears to use some kind of machine translation ('import from any website').

So how reliable is this as a source for learning a language. If I was going to invest time & money I'd want to trust that was I was learning was accurate!

<comment><AUTHOR> You're correct, it uses Google Translate to generate the in-line translation, and offers a more in-depth translation from wordreference.com in a sidebar (for the language pairs it supports). I find the Google Translate result good enough to get the meaning the vast majority of the time, which is enough to enjoy reading. When you start to learn each word, it's very much encouraged to verify and edit each translation the first time the flashcard appears. I agree that blindly accepting and learning the google translate results would be a very bad idea. I'll also investigate different dictionaries and translation services as the project progresses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> learn spanish has 450,000 search per month on google assuming 2% click through and 10% free sign up you have about 900 free signups a month. Assuming $350 per month in advertising. At 1% conversion to say $75 per year cost. 9 users at $75 gets $675 which pays for advertsing plus some. Give them 15% off if they share on facebook or twitter. Advertise on Bing and add more keywords for the other languages. Could turn into a half way decent business. People pay $350 for Rosetta stone.</comment>


Where the Hell Are the New MacBooks? - <AUTHOR> http://gizmodo.com/where-the-hell-are-the-new-macbooks-1781910047 <comment><USER2> I've got a 2013 15" rMBP. I'm jonesing for an upgrade (I really want Force Touch and the new Butterfly keyboard), but there is literally nothing comparable on the market. The current rMBPs pack a lot into 4.5 lbs: almost 100 watt-hour battery, quad-core CPU, 15" high-DPI display. The Thinkpad T560 is a pound heavier with the extended battery. The Dell XPS 15 gets a lot lower battery life with the 4K display. The Surface Book is a lot smaller. HP's laptops tend to have unfathomably small batteries (~50 watt-hours) despite not being that much smaller.

So I can kinda see why Apple is taking its sweet time. Even with an almost 3-year old CPU, the rMBP is extremely competitive.

<comment><USER3> Honestly, depending on what your use is, even their older MBPs are still fantastic. I have a 5 year old pre-Retina that I've used and abused heavily during its entire life, maxed out the RAM and put in a massive SSD, and it's still running perfectly and works great for what I do. A newer, faster computer would honestly do nothing for me, so I stick with this. I've replaced a fan that died, the battery, and the keyboard, all for under $150 combined, and it's good as new.

Maybe that's why Apple decided to make their newer computers harder to repair…

<comment><USER4> 2 people have given me original 2008 aluminum macbooks (the original brick). Maxxed RAM and added SSDs, and I really can't find a competitive reason to buy another computer. My 11 yo son bought an Asus flip simply because he didn't realize a 2008 Macbook was about to show up out of nowhere, and he uses the Flip, mainly because it's his and I think he likes that it's smaller, more his size.

But, yeah, I have the original rMBP and can't bear the thought of upgrading. Any new gear would be more painful than it's worth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> >> Every considerable advancement we've seen in computing in the past year (and change) has passed Apple's flagship laptops by.

Oh no, not an entire _year_. Someone who starts flailing their arms around due to no hardware updates after 390 days... what an impatient scrub.

Personally I'm hoping there is no hardware announcement for this fall's release of the next operating system either. If we're all lucky, Apple is busy working on a _major_ overhaul of the hardware, with immense R&D to bring _many_ new upgrades all at once. The typical upgrade brings one or two little new features at a time. We're due for one of the major overhauls that entices everyone with a 2013/2014 or older machine to upgrade.

My early 2013 rMBP has 16 GB of memory, and the CPU is more than powerful enough for my use. I have no reason to _need_ to upgrade. I am however, waiting to see specs and new features that make me _want_ to upgrade. Force touch and butterfly keyboard are nice... but not worth dropping a 3-year old machine. I suspect I will buy the next major overhaul that introduces plenty of modern stuff. Unless they're dumb enough to release the rMBP with only 1 USB-C port, in which case they won't see an upgrade from me until this machine dies.

</comment><comment><USER6> So the author expected a hardware announcement (it says as much in a previous post: [http://gizmodo.com/what-to-expect-from-apple- wwdc-2016-17786...](http://gizmodo.com/what-to-expect-from-apple- wwdc-2016-1778673239) ) but was wrong, and now complains about this incorrect prediction. Rumors are just rumors.</comment>


DreamHost fights government seeking 1.3M IP addresses of DisruptJ20 - <AUTHOR> https://venturebeat.com/2017/08/15/dreamhost-fights-u-s-government-request-seeking-1-3-million-ip-addresses-on-visitors-to-disruptj20-website/ <comment><USER2> Discussed previously:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15011636)

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm bracing for the onslaught of "well if concerned citizens can out public nazis, then the government should have infinite power to crush opposition"

</comment><comment><USER4> tldr; when creating something you think the ruling party won't like, try to find a hosting provider that doesn't keep logs indefinitely..</comment>


Tracking user engagement on Facebook fan pages with Google Analytics - <AUTHOR> http://www.webdigi.co.uk/blog/2010/tracking-user-engagement-on-facebook-fan-pages/

<comment><USER2> Talk on the Google Analytics Authorized Consultants board is that this solution produces unreliable numbers.

Here's the analysis posted from Mike Plummer, another web analyst:

Code does not read utmz cookie from firefox but does from other browsers. Code writes incorrect referrer cookie as the current page URL.. since the code cannot see the true referring URL as it's being instantiated from an img tag, so the referring URL will always be the current page being viewed. This means the traffic sources reports are not reliable and definitely means you should not use your main domain's cookies i.e. company.com with this script as you'll pollute your man GA profile cookie data with incorrect or partial data. You will get a reliable count of unique visitors and visits so far as I can tell. I would not advise using this code to write utm cookies on your live domain though anyway, just in case it's corrupting the utma cookie in some way I can't detect. GA also throws away visits with invalid utmz cookies, so firefox visits will be incorrect. The pageview metrics are going to be off too. Every browser I tested caches the tracking pixel since there is no cache defeat mechanism.</comment>


Super-fast Gmail Search - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/23/cloudmagic

<comment><USER2> I'd love to see a port to linux.</comment>


Judge rules that protestors may return to #OWS - <AUTHOR> http://nlgnyc.org/2011/11/15/press_rel_libert/

<comment><USER2> from Guardian's live coverage:

>"Inaction was not an option. We could not wait for someone in the park to get killed," Bloomberg said

Wow. This is absurd on so many levels

<comment><USER3> It might sound absurd to you and me, but it really isn't from his point of view once you consider the majority of the audience who is listening to him.

For better or for worse, most people are conditioned against destructive action [i.e. violence] used to disrupt the established order of a society. By painting the ongoing protest action with the potential of turning ugly, he is able to start turning overall public opinion against the movement.</comment></comment>


Building a rope bridge with flying machines [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCDIuZUfETc <comment><USER2> This is also one of the best platforms for drone defense I've ever seen... Getting a rope tangled up in the props of a quad (even one with carbon fiber blades) would be a quick and easy way to bring it down.</comment>


Who are the Japanese? (2008) - <AUTHOR> http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455/ <comment><USER2> > Now the Japanese people are understandably concerned about maintaining their > traditions in the face of massive Western cultural influences.

I lived in Japan for some time and this sentence is a gross generalization. _Some_ right-wingers in Japan are attempting to maintain their traditions, but the rest of the population either couldn't care less, or has fully embraced western culture. You don't have to look hard (or at all, really) to see the evidence. Speaking English is (and has been) considered "cool" and you can find popular music artists dropping the occasional English words in songs, in their mangas, anime or in their dramas. A walk around any city with over 20k people and you can see western influence quite literally _everywhere_. Nobody is rushing to tear it down or even denounce it.

There are a few extreme right-wing nationalists who might, but they're the fringe. They're smaller in size than America's Tea Party and should not be taken seriously.

> Thus, when Japan sent troops to Korea and annexed it in 1910, Japanese > military leaders celebrated the annexation as the restoration of the > legitimate arrangement of antiquity.

No, this is incorrect. At the very least, it's extremely misleading. China and Japan were fighting and both countries attempted to snatch up Korea as part of the first Sino war. It had nothing to do with their "restoration of legitimate arrangement of antiquity". That may have been their reasoning long after but it's not something any historians worth his salt would say was the reason for China and Japan's interest in Korea. See here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino- Japanese_War#Conflic...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino- Japanese_War#Conflict_in_Korea)

This paper is actually probably one of the best papers I've read on the reasons behind Japan's imperialism during that time: [http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/imperialism.htm](http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/papers/imperialism.htm)

It goes over all of the possible reasons. The most likely of which, is that they were straight up emulating the West.

<comment><USER3> Western culture had a weird influence long before. Their children animation series were western looking characters. I don't know how much of it was a marketing strategy or a form of praise for westerners. I also noticed the trend for English lines (Ai Robu Iou) in anime theme songs.

<comment><USER4> Osamu Tezuka (credited for inventing anime/manga as a genre) was indeed influenced by Disney character animation. And anime itself is a loanword from the French word for animation. There's nothing weird about one culture influencing another.

Japanese culture does seem to think that English 'sounds cool,' but how many US companies choose Japanese names for their products for the hip factor, and how many people get kanji tattoos despite barely knowing what they mean? The phenomenon definitely goes both ways, sometimes recursively: Nintendo of Japan reskinned Doki Doki Panic as Super Mario Bros. 2 for the US market, then resold it domestically as "Super Mario USA."

<comment><USER3> I ... really can't think of any brand using japanese names. I'm curious, enlighten me.

It's true DDP was rebranded as SMB2 but I don't think it reflects any kind of japan culture love, IMO it was just a cheap strategy to release a Mario sequel at low cost.

<comment><USER4> I might have thinking more about startup names and software names in the first instance, where words like 'zen' and 'origami' do seem trendy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is quite interesting. I lived in Okinawa for several years and remember how loathe they were to associate themselves with the Japanese Mainland "Honshu" \- even calling themselves "Okinawan" and not Japanese with adamant fervor. A lot of that relates to World War II era atrocities committed on the island, but, regardless, I think Okinawans see themselves as largely very different from the mainland Japanese even though they are citizens of the same country. That would be yet another distinction that I think this article sort of missed as it only referenced differences between far north and the rest of Japan.

Having lived in both mainland and Okinawa, the cultures are rather starkly different as well - Okinawa with a pretty typical, more laid back island culture and mainland with a bustling, busy one. In this regard, Japan isn't as homogeneous - both culturally and genetically - as the article would have you believe if the covered area were to include Japan's southernmost islands.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, I noticed the article didn't really mention the Okinawans either. They were annexed relatively recently, and are pretty different. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Kingdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_Kingdom)

On a related tangent, apparently modern karate originated in Okinawa, where it was locally called something like Tang-style (of the Chinese Tang dynasty). But it was re-branded Karate to make it more palpable to Japan (since they happened to be in the middle of invading China).

<comment><USER7> In Japanese, "te" means hand, and "kara" means both "Chinese" and "empty", so karate originally meant "Chinese hand", since it was derived from the Chinese kung fu, but its meaning later was changed into "empty hand".

Reference: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate#Etymology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate#Etymology)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is there any reason why the submission title has "2008" in it? The article in question says it's from the June 1998 issue

<comment><USER9> Also, a lot of the information in the article is outdated. For example, it says that the oldest pottery in the world comes from Japan 12700 years ago. However in recent years 20,000 year old pottery has been found in China.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> While I don't have a survey in hand, my impression is that few historical linguists believe there to be a demonstrated (genealogical) relationship between Korean and Japanese: they are generally considered to be isolates (i.e., languages which have no demonstrable relationship to any other extant language; Ainu, as it happens, is also thought to be an isolate).

Now, this doesn't mean they're not genealogically related. But, (at least prehistoric) languages change rapidly enough that it is probably impossible to convincingly reconstruct an ancestral language spoken more than a few thousand years ago, so the shared ancestor probably would have been spoken farther back than the comparative reconstruction method can look.

<comment><USER11> I seem to remember years ago reading that the Japanese language was related to Finnish and considered to be in the same family.

Maybe things have changed or I'm mis-remembering.

<comment><USER12> Yes, things have changed. When I first learned both Japanese and Korean, they were considered part of a "Uralo-Altaic" language family that included Finnish and Hungarian as well as some Northeast Asian languages. I'm not aware of any linguist who believes in that East-West link anymore.

And, when I (as a non-Asian) learned both of these languages long ago, the difference from any other languages I had learned was obvious, and so was their resemblance to each other. I was quite surprised and puzzled to learn that linguists had declared them unrelated.

Over the years, more and more linguists have concluded that they are, in fact, related, something that has always been obvious to me (and that has nothing to do with shared Chinese loanwords in both.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Put aside many other incorrect informations written on the article, I just want to say that a couple of years ago I visited National Science Museum in Tokyo and there are two entire floors dedicated to talk about Japanese's root. One of it said that the true native Japanese came from the mainland 50,000 years ago when they first invented large ships.

Secondly, there are artifacts and ancient pots remains that can be dated 70,000 years ago and trees and something which I cannot remember well.

After years of living here, I can only say don't believe anything on the article. Especially the fact that it didn't mention Ryukyuans.

</comment><comment><USER14> I thought this recent Razib Khan post on the origins of the Japanese was interesting

[http://www.unz.com/gnxp/scions-of-the-hairy-ainu-not- amatera...](http://www.unz.com/gnxp/scions-of-the-hairy-ainu-not-amaterasu/)

</comment><comment><USER15> nihonjinron along the lines of The Chrysanthemum and the Sword ... supporting a false ethnic nationalism

</comment><comment><USER16> > you might expect the Japanese language to show close affinities to some > mainland language

Like the extensive use of Chinese characters in their writing system?

I started learning basic Japanese after learning Korean to an intermediate level, and was surprised that the grammar was almost identical for simple phrases.

<comment><USER17> No genetic affinities is what is meant there. Viet, Korean, and Japanese all borrow up to 60% of their vocabulary from Chinese. But none of them have a strong relationship with Chinese or each other. As far as we can tell, so far, Japanese languages are isolates.

<comment><USER18> Most linguists have historically categorized the Japonic languages and the Korean language as isolates. But, even though the technical elements between the two languages may bear no relationship with each other, the phonetic similarities between the two languages are pretty interesting. Also, at times, the grammatical features and structures between Japanese and Korean are more similar to each other than Japanese is to Chinese or Korean is to Chinese (e.g. Japanese and Korean are SOV word order [1] languages whereas Chinese is an SVO word order [2] language).

Of course, there's debate as to whether these similarities between the Japanese and Korean languages are a result of language convergence or divergence. But considering how close the two countries are (historically and geographically), it's probably a mix of both.

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93object%E2%80%93...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93object%E2%80%93verb)

[2][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93verb%E2%80%93ob...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93verb%E2%80%93object)</comment></comment></comment>


A Measurement Study of Google Play - <AUTHOR> http://velvetpulse.com/2014/06/18/a-measurement-study-of-google-play/

<comment><AUTHOR> PlayDrone indexed and decompiled 1,100,000 Google Play applications. The source revealed a lot of applications were including OAuth tokens in applications (e.g. AWS tokens, FB tokens); a critical security hole. Very interesting paper and presentation.</comment>