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Unless these people can place sufficient economic pressure on the USA to cut off the billions in aid its supplies Israel yearly (which is what really keeps its economy afloat); they are wasting their time.
Leave the math to others … YoungWeber
The size of Israel's economy? 288 BILLION DOLLARS
WHILE the economic aid supplied by the USA is CERTAINLY generous and welcome … withdrawing it would NOT cripple the economy of the Jewish State
Next time … it would be wise to use a little 'saichel' and research your claim … LOL
You should go back and do the math; I am not just talking about direct aid, which alone is $3.1 billion, I am talking about the total package. Israel has only $78.6 billion USD in foreign reserves, compare that to Singapore's $273 billion USD (a nation of similar size); without those generous Swap lines provided by the US Fed the Israeli Shekel would sink like a stone. Not to mention, Israel has a major trade deficit of $9.7 billion USD, again compare that to Singapore's $43 billion USD surplus; US Dollars from the Fed is what allows Israel to consume beyond its production ability. Israel is a consumption base war economy client state of the US and no one is buying Israel's hype about being "strong and self-reliant"
So invest in Singapore … what's stopping YOU?
DOES Singapore have 350 MILLION enemies pointing weapons at them?
What's Singapore's military budget?
Does Singapore have mandatory military service for 3 YEARS?
Did Singapore absorb 1 MILLION 'immigrants' in the last 20 YEARS successfully?
Did Singapore fight an existential war in 1948 where fully 1% of the population DIED ON THE BATTLEFIELD?
Did Singapore have to sacrifice BLOOD AND TREASURE MULTIPLE TIMES IN THE LAST 60 YEARS?
LET ME KNOW how both these situations is similar?
Israel's $$$ Reserves are bound to expand exponentially due to the OIL & GAS 'RUSH' going on … the Negev has as much OIL SHALE as Saudi Arabia's oil reserves I'm told …
Well, if you believe some Singaporean, they have 250 million enemies weapons (Malaysia and Indonesia) pointed at them.
Singapore's military budget is $9.7 billion USD to Israel's $14.6 billion USD, but Singapore does not get $3.1 billion in American money; they pay for their military out of their own pocket.
Yes, Singapore has two years compulsory military service.
In the last 20 years, Singapore population has gone from 3.4 million to 5.3 million.
Singapore was racked by race riots in the late 1960s and was expelled from its union with Malaysia, but since then has peaceful worked on itself without attacking neighbors; unlike Israel.
Gas rush in the Negev; please! Israel's oil and gas reserves are Lilliputian and uneconomical.
GREAT … stay is Singapore … thanks!
What prompted the split from Malaysia?
What 'racial' group or religion are the Singaporeans?
Let me know.
"The threat: Israel's recently discovered offshore gas deposits — one of the biggest global finds of the past decade."
"Israel's Myra and Sarah fields, both "dry holes," were estimated to contain 6.5 trillion cubic feet of gas and cost $165 million to explore; the Ishai license, another dud, was estimated to have 2.4 TCF of gas and cost $103 million to explore; while the Shimshon license, yielded just 0.6 TCF of gas, a quarter of the estimated 2.4 TCF, and cost $80 million."
Even if the offshore field are not duds like the others; they are estimated to old only $3 billion USD worth of oil and gas; a drop in the bucket next to the big oil producers.
What is it YOU don't understand from TODAY'S NY Post story:
"Its (meaning, THE JEWISH STATE) spectacular offshore gas finds at Tamar (which opened last March) and the much larger Leviathan field now threaten to spoil the caviar. Although the reserves (around 1 trillion cubic meters) are nowhere near as big as Russia's, the demands of 8 million Israelis are tiny. So the bulk of future Leviathan development is free to go abroad, most likely in the form of liquified natural gas or LNG — which can be shipped anywhere in any quantity without the risk of terrorists cutting a pipeline.
This could be manna from heaven for the gas-starved EU. It certainly promises a political bonus for Israel, by turning the Jewish state from a European pariah into a would-be savior.
That has Gazprom, which gets 40 percent of its revenues from Europe, worried — and Putin, too."
Swallow hard and answer …
Abbas conditions regarding the two states for two nations principle are: no Jews tolerated in the West Bank, no to a jewish state and yes for the right of return of Palestinian refugees to Israel. This means actually three states for the Palestinian "nation" while none for Jews: one is the West Bank, one is Gaza and one is the non-Jewish Israel with Palestinian refugees joining the present day Palestinians in a smaller territory. If based on such a "racist and colonialist" aritmethics Israel does not accept the perverted two states for two nations solution, Kerry will be sorry of being unable to stop the EU supporting whoever wants to BDS Israel.
Really, you guys are out to lunch, invoking apartheid-era South Africa in this context. That's as outrageous innuendo as Kerry legitimizing intifada and boycott through his absurd jeremiad (as it were).
The Israel reaction to Kerry's attempt at intimidation and to the prospect of BDS, is a rigid middle finger. As Danny Ayalon put it, more or less, given the choice between European boycott and the risk of annihilation, we'll take boycott.
Desmond Tutu has called the Occupation worse than Aparttheid.
Well, Tutu is just picking up on the anti-Jewish sentiments of his Anglican Church masters. He has no mind of his own.
Did Tutu say why or did he just like the way that term sounds when it rolls off the tongue?
Bishop Tutu visited Palestine and has repeatedly expressed his shock at what he witnessed, as have many of us who have physically visited Palestine and seen the reality of the Occupation. Mandela also supported the Palestinian cause, as did Stephane Hessel, and as does Jimmy Carter, Noam Chomsky, Richard Falk, and others who have devoted their lives to the cause of human rights. Alice Walker has called the Occupation worse than Jim Crow. I could go on, but the point it that you can only slander so many individuals before you yourself begin to look foolish.
The definition of apartheid is quite clear and the Israel government has imposed it by law but not in name. The people are another matter and thousands wish to live in peace with their neighbour's. The BDS is a valid response to government legislation and policy
You're not clarifying anything. Give us your definition of apartheid. Did blacks in apartheid South Africa have their own legislature and an armed police force? Did they have a government with authority to levy taxes -- which in the Palestinian case, of course, are redirected to the leaders' Swiss bank accounts.
Israel has recognized the Palestinian People and the need for a Palestinian state -- when Palestinians can return the favour by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state and accommodate Israel's security requirements. Tell me again - who wants peace?
Having personally worked with the PA, I know what a joke so-called Palestinians Sovereignty is. The West Bank is very comparable to the Bantustans created by Apartheid South Africa and passed of as independent nations. Transkei had a puppet Parliament and police force. The purpose of such pseudo-nations was the same in both cases: to allow the dominant ethnic groups to maintain control of the land and resources it wanted while depriving the dominated population of all but nominal rights.
What is so deeply offensive about Israel, South Africa and Nazi Germany of the 1930s is that it is that they are institutionalized forms of exclusion and oppression against specific ethnic groups in which people are defined by birth as irrevocably pertaining to either the underclass or the privileged group. They are enshrined in dazzling bureaucracies and systems of law founded on the principle of ethnic difference.
The Palestinian Authority recognized Israel more than 20 years ago. As long as Israel refuses to address the legitimate rights of the Palestinians refugees who were born in Israel, I would not expect them to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State." A state defined by a particular religious or ethnic group is inherently problematic in today's world, and begs the question of how anyone not pertaining to that group will not be relegated to second-class citizenship.
Israel's goal is very clearly not peace, but endless negotiations that will continually fail. This way, Israel can continue to blame the Palestinians while taking the land for itself even as it being negotiated. This is strategy has allowed Israel to have its cake and eat it too and this is the situation that BDS is designed to end.
You don't know what you're saying!
PM HARPER of Canada visited Jerusalem and said these words:
"As once Jewish businesses were boycotted, some civil-society leaders today call for a boycott of Israel.
On some campuses, intellectualized arguments against Israeli policies thinly mask the underlying realities, such as the shunning of Israeli academics and the harassment of Jewish students.
Most disgracefully of all, some openly call Israel an apartheid state.
Think about that.
Think about the twisted logic and outright malice behind that: a state, based on freedom, democracy and the rule of law, that was founded so Jews can flourish as Jews, and seek shelter from the shadow of the worst racist experiment in history.
That is condemned, and that condemnation is masked in the language of anti-racism.
It is nothing short of sickening.
But, this is the face of the new anti-Semitism. It targets the Jewish people by targeting Israel and attempts to make the old bigotry acceptable for a new generation.
Of course, criticism of Israeli government policy is not in and of itself necessarily anti-Semitic.
But what else can we call criticism that selectively condemns only the Jewish state and effectively denies its right to defend itself, while systematically ignoring - or excusing - the violence and oppression all around it?
What else can we call it when Israel is routinely targeted at the United Nations?
And when Israel remains the only country to be the subject of a permanent agenda item at the regular sessions of its Human Rights Council?"
THAT SAYS IT ALL … read it and weep!
Your time with the PA was apparently wasted since you haven't understood that their authority was established by their agreement and input at Oslo. it's way too easy to drop terms like "Bantustan" and wait for them to explode rather than offering logic.
You conflate the West Bank with Israel-proper. Arabs in Israel enjoy equality before the law and access to all public institutions. That is why only 30 percent of East Jerusalem Arabs would choose to live in a Palestinian state if one is created. That is why Arab Israelis who live in zones that might be swapped in order to create a Palestinian state are deeply concerned. Not even Palestinians want to live in a Palestinian state. In that light, how bad do you think they feel about life in Israel?
Arab rights are curtailed on the West Bank in a manner consistent with the security exceptions to the Geneva Convention. Israeli courts have ruled in favour of Arab complainants in this regard where the evidence supported the complaint.
So, you object to a state defined by a particular religious or ethnic group? That should include Anglican England then, shouldn't it? Or any officially Islamic state? And most certainly a putative Palestinian state that Mahmoud Abbas vows will have no Jews in it. Israeli Arabs have citizenship and are active in public life. It was an Arab judge who sentenced a former president of Israel to a prison term on criminal charges, for example. Did you notice all those Arab members of the Knesset ranting and raving during Canadian PM Harper's supportive address? You'll see nothing remotely like that in Arab parliaments; i.e. in those Arab states that actually have parliaments.
Israel is not taking land. Everything west of the Jordan River is sovereign Israeli territory as a matter of international treaty and the customary law of nations. Israel is willing to negotiate a grant of territory for a Palestinian state per UNSCR 242, 338, Oslo and many subsequent agreements. But Arab Palestinians have no right to a state as a matter of law. They have turned down multiple offers and even they regret it, as M. Abbas has stated.
The PA has never recognized a Jewish state or even any right for Israel to exist. How else would you interpret M. Abbas' reference to "63 years of occupation" in his address to the UNGA in September 2011? That's the whole enchilada. You think that represents a desire for peace?
BDS is a hollow threat representing only dark motivation on the part of left-academics and viscerally anti-Jewish clerics. Israel makes too much good stuff in which states like India and China are becoming increasingly interested. Europe is on its way to oblivion in any case, if you haven't noticed.
Your other comment, by the way, to which I responsed, was deleted by the The Economist's Comments Moderator not because it was particularly offensive but because all you did was name drop without offering your own logic. That's known as ad hominem argument. If you feel that your own arguments are so weak as to require back-up from elsewhere, perhaps you should re-assess your position.
You seem to feel that critical comments about Israel offered by Jews carries particular weight; but these are Jews afflicted with what is known as "Stockholm Syndrome." By placating their enemies they hope to win their approval. It's a self-esteem problem for those confused Jews. Professional counseling might help.
I have my opinion, based in part on my time spent as an anthropologist in Palestine, but I defer to people who have devoted their lives to the subject, like the ones I cited. I have offered my own observations and conclusions elsewhere on this thread. What you call "name dropping" was an attempt to give readers access to what I believe is accurate information so that they can make up their own minds. Specifically, it was a response to an ad hominem attack on me, to which I replied something like: "Don't take my word for it, read..."
In the end what matters here is facts, not opinions.
"...your own arguments are so weak as to require back-up from elsewhere." As a social scientist, that is an incomprehensible statement. My opinions are based on data and capable of change based on new data. I grew up with the usual Jewish attitudes toward Israel and never deeply questioned them until Cast Lead, when I began to realize how much the information we were getting in the US was filtered. That set me on a 5-year journey to understand better what was really happening in Palestine, culminating in 4 work trips there, in which I spent time working and talking with Palestinians from all walks of life and witnessing various aspects of the Occupation. I realized that, as one of the relatively few people who had actually witnessed the reality of the Occupation, I had an obligation to the wonderful people who had treated me with such hospitality and grace, to spread awareness on some of the things that are hidden from most people in the US. That is why I am on this thread now; out of a personal sense of responsibility. Now, I have a job and other specialties and I will not become an Ilan Pappe any time soon, but I can cite the knowledgeable people whose analysis of the situation mirrors what I saw with my own eyes.
You are incapable of processing the idea that people of conscious may be disturbed by Israel's excesses and have valid objections to them. For you, it seems, they must either be pathological or dishonest, because nothing but your on particular world view can possibly be valid.
Israel broke Oslo in multiple ways, but I am tired of Talmic exchanges and of having to answer statements such as "Israel is not taking land." What you fail to understand - and I have found this typical of most of the Israeli expansionist ideologues I have exchanged with - is that even if you were right in terms of legalistic minutiae, your position is inhuman, because it completely ignores the suffering of millions of people who were forced out from homes, deprived of their land and property, watched their olive trees burn, their places of worship defiled defiled, sick people and pregnant women dying at checkpoints for lack of medical attention, peaceful protestors shot and killed, people arrested and held indefinitely without charge or trial, the daily outrages of negotiating checkpoints and the myriad obstacles that the Occupation places in the paths of normal people just trying to feed their families, children killed by cluster bombs and white phosphorus... the litany goes on and on. How could anyone not be touched by so much suffering? And yet you Zionist apologists never seem able to show the slightest true remorse nor willingness to examine your country's part in this ongoing tragedy. It is this total failure of empathy that is undermining your cause more than anything.
Pathological, dishonest...or downright venal, I would add, in singling Israel out for criticism in terms so egregious as to be absurd.
My position is based on 2 years studying economics and political science at the Hebrew University plus a number of other visits. I studied law although do not practice.
There is no Palestine -- where were you exactly? How did you witness "aspects of the Occupation (why did you use upper case?) when no one without permission from the IDF is permitted there?
You, my friend, if indeed you are a Jew, have lost your survival instincts. You might just as well have been an anthropologist on Mars.
Let me understand: because I disagree with you, I am an ideologue but your positions all come as a result of dispassionate inquiry. It is to laugh.
As I noted earlier, you might as well have been an anthropologist on Mars. The Palestinians do not suffer on the West Bank and certainly do not suffer in Israel-proper. That is why only 30 percent of East Jerusalem Arabs poll in favour of giving up Israeli citizenship if a Palestinian state is created. That is why Israeli Arabs in zones that might be swapped into a Palestinian state are deeply concerned. Not even Palestinians want to live in a Palestinian state.
What you note in egregiously mistaken terms concerning treatment of Arabs on the West Bank is consistent with the security exceptions in the Geneva Convention -- which arguably has no application since Israel is not occupying the territory of another country. That's what negotiations are about -- allocation of West Bank territory.
The checkpoints have been reduced by 90 percent. If you are indeed an anthropologist, don't base any papers on your field notes.
There is nothing for Israel, Zionists or Jews to be remorseful about. Palestinians suffer in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan at the hands of their Arab cousins. They do not suffer anywhere that is under Israeli jurisdiction. They enjoy higher income levels, higher longevity rates, lower infant mortality rates, higher education levels than anywhere in the Arab world. Again, that's why not even Palestinians would choose to live in a Palestinian state.
Look around the region. Good grief -- is that what you want for the people who have so graciously befriended you?
"Arab rights are curtailed on the West Bank in a manner consistent with the security exceptions to the Geneva Convention"
Erm, the Fourth Geneva Convention expressly outlaws the settlements. The Israeli thievery is not in the least consistent with the Geneva Conventions.
The International Court of Justice has ruled exactly what is and is not sovereign Israeli territory. If your view is that the whole of the Mandated Territories is sovereign Israeli territory, then Israel is indeed operating an apartheid system within its own borders. This, old boy, is the very reason that the Israeli government never makes the claim that you just have.
Guess what - those Arabs that you despise have just the same right of self determination that those you consider their superior - Jews - have.
Israel is stealing land, or running an apartheid state.
I can tell that you feel quite strongly about this -- possibly confirmed in your errors -- but you are mistaken.
The Convention arguably does not even apply because the occupation - if it is an occupation -- is not on the land of another country. That is what the negotiation process is about.
From whom has Israel stolen land? I assume you mean Arab Palestinians but where did you get the idea that they have any entitlement to land?
Israel has decided to act as if the Convention does apply and Israeli courts have often overruled IDF initiatives where the IDF could not meet the security standard set by the Convention.
Even if Israel were in breach of the Convention, that does not go to the issue of title to the territory. The legal remedy is just to end the infraction -- it there were one.
The ICJ has made no ruling whatsoever on this issue. The ICJ offered an "advisory opinion." Read the heading of the document. An advisory opinion does not involve a judicial proceeding, is not enforceable and does not form precedent. In any case, the opinion was impugned owing to Egyptian Judge Nabil Elaraby having prejudiced the proceedings with anti-Israel statements in advance of the hearing.
Why do you think I or Israel despise Arabs? They have been provided with equal rights in Israel-proper and with a maximum of rights on the West Bank consistent with the security exceptions to the Geneva Convention, your opinion notwithstanding.
Arab Palestinians do not have a right of national self-determination because they do not qualify as a nation. There are no historical references to them as such and no archaeological evidence of them. They are not mentioned in UNSCR 242, the basis of diplomacy in the area since 1967.
Arab Palestinians have been given an opportunity to negotiate for territory but have no right to it. The outcome of negotiations will depend on the extent to which Arab Palestinians can satisfy Israel's security requirements.
This is unlikely. A more likely outcome is Palestinian semi-autonomy in Oslo Areas A and B along with Israeli annexation of the West Bank. This will parallel a similar system in Canada, for example, where Native Canadians have such a constitutional arrangement. It will not be a compromise of Israeli democracy. It will be a reasonable political compromise under the circumstances.
Tutu is incorrect.
The South African problem was based on racial beliefs and skin color.
The Israeli situation is based on nationalism and religion.
The South African laws were extremely segregationist and the black Africans want to join the society, not destroy it. Israel is integrated where peaceful, and the Muslim goal is to eradicate the Jewish State.
Jews in Israel range from white to black. Arabs are a middle beige: chromatically less diverse.
I'm afraid the mistakes are all your wishful thinking. Let's see what the highest authority on the planet has to say on the matter, shall we:
"The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law"
Note that "Occupied Palestinian Territory" reference? Good. Let's read on...
"Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto"
Ouch, seems they're pretty clear that East Jerusalem is Occupied Palestinian Territory. Perhaps you should have made your highly developed arguments to them. That would have shown them.
" The Court begins by citing, with reference to Article 2, paragraph 4, of the United Nations Charter and to General Assembly resolution 2625 (XXV), the principles of the prohibition of the threat or use of force and the illegality of any territorial acquisition by such means, as reflected in customary international law."
So, any acquisition of territory by force is illegal. Can someone remind me how Israel got hold of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, that it is now trying to colonise. Note the reference to customary international law - this doesn't have to be part of a treaty (although, as luck would have it, it is!).
" the Court finds that Israel must respect the right of the Palestinian people to self‑determination " -oops - ting! - there's another of your arguments hitting the shitcan.
Here's another zinger " The Court concludes that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law."
So unfortunately, it seems like the highest court on the planet thinks that one of us is indeed mistaken. Unfortunately (for you), it's you.
Do you know what "hubris" is? For your own sake, be a bit more modest in your opinions.
Wherever did you get the idea that the International Court of Justice is "the highest court on the planet"? It is just another UN agency - as corrupt as the rest -- whose decisions are only sometimes respected and in the document that you cite rendered no "decision" at all.
I explained earlier. That was an "advisory opinion," which is not the result of judicial proceedings, is not enforceable and does not form legal precedent. The intent of the opinion was to provide people like you with a talking point to critique Israel with. It was purely political, as clearly intended by Egyptian Judge Nabil Elaraby, who prejudiced the opinion in any case with comments in advance of the hearing.
If you believe that this opinion was a decision of the highest court on the planet, why has it not been enforced since 2004 when it was pronounced?
It is at best a "brief." Look that up. There are counter-briefs to the points the opinion enunciates. That opinion is of no legal or practical consequence.
You will be disappointed by this reality.
You will, of course, be able to point to a body other than the ICJ that has higher authority in matters of public international law.
Oh, no. You can't, because there isn't one.
The ICJ ruling is, quite simply, the most authoritative statement on the legal questions regarding the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
So, once again, as stated by the highest jurists on the planet, the territories are occupied, Israel is in breach of customary international law and the Geneva Conventions, and the Palestinians absolutely enjoy a right of self-determination.
You were wrong, on every count. I'm not suffering from Hubris (and you are no Nemesis), I'm just right, and I know it
May the Force be with you.
It is
I would like to report that Comments Moderator for The Economist has deleted two of my posts, saying that they violated their policy. I asked them both times to explain exactly what in my post violated their policy and in what way, but have not received a response.
They threaten to suspend my right to comment further if I continue violating their policy, but have yet to tell me in what way I have violated it.
I am Jewish; I am not antisemitic; I support Palestinian rights, Jewish rights and human rights for all people; I do not curse, threaten or insult; I simply express my opinion, which is I believe a sacred right in a free press. If I am to be censored form a public newspaper I at least deserve an explanation.
It will be interesting to see if this comment too is removed for "violation of policy" and if my right to post is revoked. If anyone feels that my posts have been reasonable and respectful and is curious to know why I am being accused of violating policy, please feel free to let The Economist know.
No it's just boring … yawn
Maybe YOU bored them … say something clever and you can prove you're Jewish … LOL
He's really is Jewish (I'm Bill Gates so I would know)
Forget about me. Even if I weren't Jewish, you'd still have Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestien and Medea Benjamin; Gideon Levy, Ilan Pappe and Miko Peled; B'Tselem, Ex-combattants for Peace and Breaking the Silence; holocaust survivors, their children and many other Jewish people around the world who know far more than I do about and who have devoted their lives to putting humanity before an exclusionary and callous ethnocentric nationalism.
Great Groucho … Now say the magic word … 'shmaltz'
Quite a number of Jews promote anti-Zionist agenda, normally for two major reasons:
1- Judaism encourages a culture of asking questions, and encourage challenging thinking. Jews truly develop a freedom of speech culture.
2- 2000 years of dependence on non-Jewish neighbors for their physical survival, makes Jews express ideas their neighbors like to hear, so that when the next pogrom comes, they will be spared. This is a very deap sentiment that drives Jews' conduct, even if they are not aware of it consciously. I hope this is researched one day by sociologists and/or anthropologists.
That's how we have people like Chomsky, Sand, Finkelstein and others. If there was Gertrude Stein, we can definitely have people like Chomsky and the rest..
By the way, I am sure it pays off much better to be an anti-Zionist Jew thinker, then to be a Zionist Jew. Your potential book buying community is much bigger with the former..
About B'Tselem, Breaking the silence, and other NGO's, it is enough to see who their donors are to understand where their commitment lies, if y=they want to get more donations next year.
B'Tselem list of donors include:
British Foreign and Commonwealth Office
The European Commission
Royal Norwegian Embassy
...and mostly other European organization
Most of those promote a pro-Palestinin/anti-Israeli agenda, which B'Tselem must justify receiving their funds.
Breaking the Silence donors include the European Union, New Israel Fund, Norway, and mostly other European organizations, you know, the continent where BDS is very active.
Funding sources will tell you a lot about the outcome, before you saw the reports..
I get my comments occasionally removed as well; I have also asked in the past for explanations for the reason, and didn't get it.
Don't take it personally. Just go on and make your point.
Maybe you should purchase a subscription and not be a guest......
The idea that anyone can oppose Israeli policy on purely moral grounds is incomprehensible to you; your world view simply does not admit it. It is not enough to with them; you have to demonize and diminish them.
Oh, you can attack Israel at any level, including moral grounds, and I never demonize anyone (any example to show?), and I never diminish anything (any example to show?).
Likewise, Israel critics are not immune from counterargument concerning their morality.
If one presents lies (many example for that); If some present blood libels (many examples of that); If some one is selective in his implementation of some 'global standards', implementing them solely on Israel; If some present a double faced approach; If some want to deny the Jewish people rights any other people enjoys - he shouldn't be surprised if a mirror is placed in front of his face, or if the claims he makes are refuted with well-supported counter arguments.
Why would Bill Gates know? Just asking … is it because of Paul Allen?
er, no. i was just trying to claim to be someone that it is was very unlikely for me to be and i tried to tie it into the idiot guest-smlmioi's comment. in retrospect bill gates wasn't the best pick and the post wasn't very funny I am just tired of these people who go around with these virulently unpleasant comments about Israel and as soon as someone calls them out or anything they claim to be Jewish. i wasn't trying to say that bill gates knows who all the Jew's are or something of that nature.
That's cool … I was just trying to find the connection and I thought Paul Allen is Jewish (at least genetically) … but … good luck …
Could someone please give me a coherent, intelligible answer to this question?
I do not want to start an argument. Yes, I have an attitude towards the conflict but I am by no means impermeable to new information or conceptions of it. I simply want an honest, non-derisive, factual answer that does not accuse me of anything or use highly charged epitaphs in their answer. Thank you.
Why is it Israel's responsibility to give Palestinians a state when Egyptians (who formerly controlled Gaza) and Jordanians (who formerly exercised hegemony over the West Bank), who now claim solidarity with Palestinian statehood, did not? From my study on the subject, they rebuffed any and all attempts for a Palestinian state. Also, didn't Israel acquire these lands in war? Isn't this how many countries (current) borders were once formed?
Thank you for your answer and again, please do not levy accusations or answer using incendiary rhetoric.
I respect your framing of your question.
"Why is it Israel's responsibility to give Palestinians a state when Egyptians (who formerly controlled Gaza) and Jordanians (who formerly exercised hegemony over the West Bank), who now claim solidarity with Palestinian statehood, did not?"
The justification for displacing the former resident s of Israel and, now, of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is that they are Arabs, so they can simply go live in any Arab state. There are 23 Arab states, this argument goes, and only one Jewish state. So why do they need to live in the Jewish state?
What this argument ignores is that when people are born in a place, live there for years, a lifetime or even generations, work the land, build, extend or improve their houses, etc., they have certain rights with regard to that place. If an ethnically Arab person was born in Jaffa and get uprooted by war or other catastrophe, and finds themselves in a refugee camp in Gaza or Syria or Jordan, they have a certain legitimate claim to the place they were displaced from.
"...they rebuffed any and all attempts for a Palestinian state." Another person on this thread recently cited terms proposed by Netanyahu for an agreement and I responded that, were I a Palestinian leader, I would never accept such terms. When one speaks of the history of negotiations, one has to look at what was really proposed, because it's easy to mythologize and hype such things.
"...didn't Israel acquire these lands in war? Isn't this how many countries (current) borders were once formed?" True, the US, for example, was built on genocide and slavery, and clearly has no plans of giving back land or making serious reparations. That is partly the prerogative of power, but it's also true that all those Americans, Australians, White South Africans, Irish Protestants, etc., who have been born for generations on that land also have certain rights due to the fact that they were born and have lived there. It makes no sense for these people to go "back" to any other place, so they should be allowed to stay there. Sabras in Israel should have exactly the same right, no matter what solution is ultimately arrived at. If I thought for a second that the goal of BDS was to chase all Jews from Israel I would not support it. As a Jew, I would also prefer to see an Israel that I could call my home and migrate to if I ever chose. But I also think the exact same right should be extended to all Palestinians and their descendants, whether it is to a separate Palestinian homeland or to a united bi-national, multi-ethnic and multi-religious state.
These are just my personal opinions, as a Jewish American who supports BDS. I hope this was of some help to you.
You said: "If I thought for a second that the goal of BDS was to chase all Jews from Israel I would not support it …"
That's EXACTLY what the BDS is about! The end result of BDS is a ONE STATE SOLUTION … Hello?
YOUR analysis is exact, perfect and right!
The Arab/Muslims don't want to settle for PARTITION … that is, a separate state for themselves … they want to ELIMINATE THE JEWISH STATE … that's the goal of the PLO and Hamas and the PA … and BDS !!!
From 1948 to 1967 … when the Arab/Muslims controlled the West Bank and Gaza …
THERE WERE NO JEWISH SETTLEMENTS TO STOP THE FORMATION OF PALESTINE … Hello?
You have rationally approached the history and formulated a rational answer … the PROBLEM is the Arab/Muslims are NOT RATIONAL … their culture is NOT LIKE OURS … their worldview is NOT LIKE OURS … they cannot abandon their quest since … you can fill in the blank:
• the land is a Muslim waqf and cannot be abandoned
• Jews cannot be allowed to dominate Arab/Muslims since the Koran says they are a despised people
• Jews cannot defeat Arab/Muslims since the Koran says so … they are dhimmis (2nd Class People)
• the Jews 'stole' our country (despite the fact there is/was NO COUNTRY)
• all we (the Arab/Muslims) need to do is win ONCE and the Jewish State is destroyed
I'M SURE THERE'S MORE excuses err rationalizations BUT those are off the top of my head …
I am encouraged by your line of reasoning …
That's what you want BDS to be about, because you're a hopeless ideologue.
What is really disturbing to me about you is the complete lack of concern for the suffering of the Palestinians, which none of your arguments take into the slightest account. It is this fundamental callousness and lack of empathy, truly sociopathic in its scope, that is hurting your cause more than anything else.
The Jewish mayor of Jaffa at the time, Levy, implored the Arabs to stay. Nevertheless, they listened to their Grand Mufti and left on the promise they could return once the Jews had been eradicated. You'll deny this happened but it's documented history.
In any case, Israel has no obligation whatsoever to provide a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. That area was designated by international treaty (League of Nations Palestine Mandate confirmed by UN Charter Article 80) as the homeland of the Jewish people. "Non-Jewish communities," i.e. the Arabs, were given entitlement to civil and religious rights in the area but not sovereign rights.
The West Bank and Gaza were under unlawful occupation by Jordan and Egypt respectively between 1948 and 1967 but those areas were repatriated by Israel in 1967, defending against Arab aggression once more. Palestinians are not even mentioned in UNSCR 242, the basis of regional diplomacy since 1967 - because they did not exist at the time and certainly had no entitlement to territory.
At Oslo, Israel offered Arab Palestinians an opportunity to negotiate for territory that would come from the entitlement of the Jewish state. That is a matter within Israel's sole discretion and certainly not a Palestinian right.
You are mistaken about the rights of the "non-Jewish communities" west of the Jordan River. They never exercised effective jurisdiction in the area whereas the Palestine Mandate refers to "reconstituting" the Jewish homeland. Jews have lived on the land for 3500 years.
As a strategic matter, what do you think a Palestinian state would look like? Israel does not need another failed state on its borders. Israeli Arabs presently resident in areas subject to a land swap between Israel and a putative Palestinian state have expressed deep concern. Apparently, not even Palestinians want to live in a future Palestinian state.
BDS is a non-threat to Israel as Israel turns eastward away from Europe, entering trade, technology and cultural exchanges with China and India. Israeli and Chinese companies have combined in many joint ventures. Europe has lost any vestige of morality, not to mention economic acumen, en route as it is to history's dumpster. One can only wonder why any Jews would choose to continue living there.
Frankly … I could give a shit about the Palestinians!
The poor and suffering at the hands of their leaders … sure I pity them but that's it! I can't change their fate! They're locked into a cause that I cannot empathize with in the slightest!
What about what's going on in Syria? The refugees numbering 2 MILLION are suffering in winter weather in tents without proper care et al
What about what's going on in Libya? The refugees in boats drowning off of Italy?
There are SO MANY issues on Planet Earth … so little time … BUT you've decided 'THIS' issue is the one YOU must resolve? This is the one that's worthy of YOUR attention? Cool … go for it!
Thank you for your honesty.
I'm sorry to say that there is a strain of Jewish nationalist extremist sentiment that denies the humanity of Arabs, and even of all non-Jews. Jewish lives are what is important for such people, and their inability to show the slightest compassion, empathy or human understanding vis-à-vis the Palestinians is chillingly obvious in comment thread such as this, and in many IDF and settler actions on the ground. Discussion with such people is pointless.
I agree with you on one thing: there are broader issues afoot, such as climate change, that will soon make this and other conflicts irrelevant. What concerns me is that either we will face these unprecedented challenges as a united species, or our lives will degenerate into a vicious struggle for dwindling land and resources. There is no longer room for narrow-minded sectarianism and bigotry. We will either have a better world or none at all.
The thing is … YOU want Jews to be the ones to 'give up' their particularity … meld into the masses … and thereby become part of 'MANKIND' … in order to solve the problem (either specific or general) …
Jews have been at the forefront of such causes since the Enlightenment and certainly since the 1800's …
MARX, FREUD, and EINSTEIN come to mind along with many others … the 'truth' is … Jews as a 'particularity' are a threat to 'Others' … no sense beating around the bush on that one! The sickness of Jew hatred is NEVER going to disappear … that's why I support the ONE JEWISH STATE … there will be no Jews in America in a hundred years … [only Bruno Mars-type Jews who don't know or care] … Hello? Only in the JEWISH STATE will there be a secular Jewish People … THAT'S why I care and I have a passion for this cause!
You're privileged to live in the USA 70+ YEARS after the Holocaust … I was a 'half-step' away … just born AFTER to survivors … I won't be changing my tune … I may be an ideologue but I'm Western educated and know of what I speak … I lived in Israel for 2 YEARS myself and taught in Israel!
Your heroes are Chomsky? Finkelstein? Falk? I see through their disguises … the end result of their words are … NO JEWISH STATE! That's unacceptable to me …
Hi sdf osu, I know you received many answers, but it seems only the first one managed to keep to your (very reasonable) requirements.
It would seem that the question revolves around whether the West Bank and Gaza are "occupied territory" according the Geneva Convention, or not.
To begin with, Article 49 states that a state cannot transfer it's own population into a dependent "occupied territory". On the other hand, Article 2 states that this applies only to the occupation of one state by another.
As you probably know, the West Bank and Gaza were not countries or part of any country in the legal sense when they were occupied by Jordan and Egypt. Furthermore, they were not claimed by these two countries when they were later occupied by Israel.
This may be the reason why, from a legal perspective, the Palestinians are in a grey area as far as I understand.
Furthermore, it would seem that most Palestinian leaders have historically been loath to even accept a right of self-determination limited to the West Bank and Gaza (the "right of return" for millions descendents of the original Palestinian refugees to Israel proper has been one of their core demands). Therefore, it may not even be possible for Israel to "give" Palestinians a state, even assuming territorial conditions were met.
Last of all, even if Israel has no legal obligation to do so, the state of Israel is under pressure to settle this conflict because dealing with millions of non-citizens in areas with a grey legal status is horribly problematic from every point of view. However, a minority of Israelis (the settlers) believe it is a religious obligation to live in the West Bank (but not Gaza) because this is Holy Land, while some in the security establishment think it is too insecure to disegage from the West Bank because it puts Israel's major cities within firing range.
In conclusion, it is debatable whether Israel has to "give" Palestinians a state; Palestinians may not really want a state; and a minority of Israelis have trouble with the idea for various reasons as well.
Thank you for your answer. Your analysis was far more helpful than the first two answers. So basically, it boils down to political unpopularity. Because it sounds as if by your references of international law, Israel may be in the clear. Is worldwide political unpopularity and growing solidarity with the plight of Palestinians the main reason for Israel's 'responsibility' to seek an accommodation for a Palestinian state? Thanks again!
The difference is that Israel was the creation of terrorism which really isn't a war. Well it isn't by today's standards. Before you start your protest you do recall that all Israel's forefathers were terrorists. You do remember the hotel bombing right. That is still one of the CIA's top case studies for terrorism - just in case you don't know. Yes I know they call them freedom fighters but when you are taking over someone else's country you really can't seriously consider yourself a freedom fighter. The lands were stolen and should be returned.
Uhmmm...you can't just say stuff. You have to substantiate your statements.
The problem with this view of the law is that it flies in the face of the view of the law held by the International Court of Justice (the highest court on the planet for matters of public international law), the UN Security Council, and the High Contracting Parties of the Geneva Conventions themselves, all of whom view the territory as very clearly occupied, and the settlements as very clear breaches of the Geneva Conventions.
I've just come from a lecture entitled: "The Strange Career of the 'Ritual Murder' Trial in Modern Europe" … the issue is that there are those on this blog that say just as crazy things as 'ritual murder'!
For instance: "the attempted sterilisation of unwitting Egyptian women en masse residing in Israel as 'loonies'"
Statements such as these are the 'new' cries of 'ritual murder' … it's really putting more and more BS online leads inevitably to belief … it's just like Goebbels said: Repeat the Big Lie often enough and it will be believed not that 'it becomes the truth'.
Just thought I'd point that 'thought' out there for y'all … it's REAL and its MENACING …
Just like the Prof was attempting to say about the late 1800's … rational thought and 'science' was already embedded into the culture BUT still in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Prussia, Poland and Russia/Ukraine … RITUAL MURDER TRIALS were still held even up to 1913!
Like Bob Dylan wrote in Final Refrain of his song … The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll
"Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears."
"And if the West turns its back on Israel, there is, they say, the east. Relations with India have warmed of late, and those with China are getting closer. The economy minister, Naftali Bennett, a sceptic of the peace process, recently toured the Far East, saying he was bringing a "light to the gentiles" by way of Israeli business."
Really? Israel wants to replace the West as its main backer with China? I suppose that would be somehow appropriate, given the parallels between Israel's and China's attempts at land grabs at the expense of weaker neighbors. So if right-wing Israel wants to replace Western liberal values with Chinese ones, then by all means let them...see what sort of country they turn into. Oh, and I'd wonder how Israel's relations with other Asian countries like Japan and the Philippines might go if Israel aligns itself with China.
Europe is the no. 1 importer of Israeli goods. One major trend, however, will make that change over time, and that is gradual Islamic takeover of Europe.
Regardless of what Israel does or doesn't do, the more time that passes the political pressure on Europe's governments to be more and more hostile towards Israel will increase. This is because in order to get elected, leaders will depend on the Muslim vote.
Most recently, two leaders were elected thanks to the Muslims - Denmark's PM, and French president. For MP's to be elected, similar pattern will follow - candidates will have to compete between themselves who's more hostile to Israel in order to win over Muslim voters.
Over time, Europe's imports from Israel will therefore decline.
Another development that will reduce the ability of Europeans to buy from anyone will be affected by the ongoing Islamic immigration, most of which consumes welfare, but contributes little to the economies and societies they join.
Europe is a decaying continent. This actually leaves Israel with no much choice, but seeking to expand its exports elsewhere.
Israel will construct the Eilat-Ashdod railway, to offer an alternative for the Suez Canal, that sooner or later will be shut down, courtesy of Islamists fighting the most hated Military rule there. This will become strategic for Chinese and Indian exporters.
Since Israelis seek all the time to create value, its exports will always be in high demand somewhere..
I hope Israelis will one day stop mythologizing, demonizing and blaming Muslims and start actually getting to get to know them. I was deeply touched by the warm, generous, thoughtful and incredibly human people I met in Palestine. I was touched, as many foreign visitors are, and I hope that more Israelis will make the effort to get to know their Arab brothers personally, rather than through the lens of ideology. That is the only way barriers between people and destructive stereotypes are broken: by actually getting to know people as individuals and realizing just how much they have in common with you.
BDS is more than anything an expression of classic Western liberal values - values of universal human rights and against all systems of exclusion, marginalization, oppression and second-class citizenship. I wish this for you.
So, how is that those "warm, generous, thoughtful and incredibly human people" are cutting each others throats all over the Middle East? How is it that displaced Palestinians are utterly abuse by those generous, thoughtful people to an extent that is nearly unimaginable?
Why is it that only 30 percent of East Jerusalem Arabs would be willing to give up Israeli citizenship if a Palestinian state is created?
Why is it that Arab citizens of Israel in areas that are under discussion to be swapped into a future Palestinian state are expressing such deep concern.
Not even Palestinians want to live in a Palestinian state.
BDS is an expression of ancient, visceral European anti-Jewish sentiment. Not that it will have any effect as the European economy continues to sink while Israel's GDP has continued to advance at a healthy 3 per cent annual rate even through the recession.
You talk of exclusion and oppression. There are Arab citizens in Israel yet the PA will tolerate no Jews in its prospective state. Tell me, who are the racists?
Dear Guest - Smlmioi, please do not reply to Blue Mike as it only seems to fan his rage - he make a point about visceral sentiment and even from here in Australia it is obvious that a mirror would be handy at this point - to show him something of himself and while some of his points have validity, he then steps too far into overtly racist remarks against all arabs and muslims in particular. A comment below could be directed at him in particular There is one amateur propagandist on this column who thinks it's a good idea to comment on every posting with the consequence that as soon as his name appears, that comment is ignored. But would it not be a good idea to prohibit posting more than 5% of the total correspondence to save everyone's time and retain credibility to the comments as a whole?"
Arabs are known for their warm hospitality. This is particularly true when it comes to visitors from abroad whom they know they can recruit through warm hospitality, and turn them into 'useful idiots' who then roam around the world and preach Palestinian anti-Israeli propaganda.
I guess your warm hosts didn't take you to that Nablus terror glorifying exhibition, set as the Sbarro Pizza restaurant, in which a homicide bomber massacred scores of Israelis:
They didn't take you I guess to that square in Bethlehem, in which the "map of Palestine" is presented, covering also the entire Israel part within the 1967 borders:
This monument, by the way, was removed three days before Obama visited Bethlehem last year, you know, so that he will still be deceived as if a two state solution is what the Palestinians seek..
I guess your hosts didn't show you how the text books the Palestinian children learn from look like, and how those instill Israel's destruction message to Palestinian children from early age.
Look at this 2nd grade "national education" book, where 'Palestine' replaces Israel:
Have your warm Palestinian hosts showed you that text book?
Have your hosts shared with you what their 'moderate leaders' say about their final goal which is Israel's destruction? - See Fatah Central Committee Member Abbas Zaki:
Did they show you that? - Did they show you how the PA Mufti calls to kill the Jews? - and how Jews are presented the offspring of pigs and apes?
I guess also that your warm hosts didn't tell you about 'Save a Child's Heart', an Israeli initiative offering heart surgeries to children all across the globe who are in need of such and can't get it locally. Thousands of Palestinian children were treated under this program, in Holon, Israel:
Did they show you the story of Mohamad, a 3 year old from Gaza, as well as others?
Braking barriers, as you suggest, is a good thing. How about the Palestinians respect also the Jewish people's right of self-determination, and not as they did under their own Palestinian National Charter, where they deny the existence of a Jewish people? - How about this show of basic respect to a right every people has? - Look at article 20 to the Palestinian National Charter:
"Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of their own;"
This is no mistake, having this in their Charter. After all, if Jews do not constitute a nation, they do not deserve a nation state, do they?
Read the Charter; It will tell you a lot about the nature of the Palestinian aggression against Israel, as being existential, not political:
Israelis do not demonize Muslims, guest-smlmioi. As you see above, Israelis have very good reasons to feel threatened by the Palestinians. The fact that they are weaker, doesn't necessarily mean their real cause is just. That's why BDS wrongs Israel, as it joins up the campaign to de-legitimatize Israel, and help bring about its destruction.
You say about Blue Mike:
'...he then steps too far into overtly racist remarks against all arabs and muslims in particular.'
If you won't mind, can you please highlight the remarks made by Blue Mike, which you find racist against Arabs and Muslims?
The tiny percentage of Palestinians who have engaged in bombings or other acts of deadly violence aimed at civilians do not represent the vast majority of Palestinians any more than the violence of the IDF and settlers represents me. To think otherwise is pure racism.
Darryl Taylor,
I've interacted enough with these Zionist extremists to know that they really do believe their own rhetoric and cannot see their own racism any more than a fish sees water. The idea of a Jewish State is for them an existential issue. They've been raised to believe that the choice is between this and ovens. I'm not an expert in this national psychosis, but there are Israeli Jews who have written about it extensively.
Some of their fears, however, are also legitimate. The region is unstable and Hamas has not shown a clearly willingness to accept a future with Israel. Rather than debating rabid ideologues, we need to concentrate on those reasonable Israelis who want guarantees for their safety were they to loosen the iron grip Israel currently has on its conquered population. The extremists will never be convinced, but the scales of Israeli opinion may still be tipped in favor of a real solution.
How many Palestinians are practically involved in this organized murder campaign against innocent Israelis is irrelevant. What is important, is that all those war crimes are STATE ORGANIZED, and led by people ELECTED by the Palestinian people!!
See the Palestinian Ambassador to Libya, stating: Members of PA security forces carried out most of the attacks in second intifada:
See former PA Minister Hassan Asfour boasts: Many Israelis killed since PA established:
See Palestinian President glorifies Palestinian murderers:
Schools and squares are named after suicide bombers.
In Palestinian sermons, Jews are depicted as sons of pigs and apes, and their killing is promoted (Jews, not just Israelis).
The acts of murder against Israelis IS SUPPORTED by the Palestinian people. Their two leading parties, PLO and Hamas, advocate Israel's destruction.
If what you say is right, and the majority of Palestinians do not approve of Palestinian violence, then where is the Palestinian 'Peace Now' movement? - Where is the Palestinian equivalent to B'Tselem??
I take it that you are not an Israeli, so of course the IDF or settlers do not represent you. I guess this is what concerns you most - That your non-Jewish neighbors wherever it is you live in would not relate you to Israel; under the current atmosphere it isn't popular.
You are hereby relieved, guest-smlmioi. I will confirm to anyone who asks that even though you are a Jew, you are not a Zionists, OK? - You are safe now..
But the Palestinian President and Hamas DO REPRESENT ALL PALESTINIANS! - Everything they do IS DONE IN THEIR NAME! - If they do not like them, it is up to the Palestinians to establish their leftist movement, and have their candidate run for presidency.
Until they do that, What Abbas-Haniye do, and the suffering their people experience as a result, it is all their doing.
Remember - every people gets the leadership it deserves!
My position is fully baked by facts. If I have concerns about the nature of the conflict, I have ample of documentation to present in order to back it up.
I do not see any facts in your posts, just empty slogans, and suggestions of Israelis suffering of 'national psychosis'. Is that all what you've got?
You've equated Palestinian terrorists with the IDF?
How can YOU justify that comparison? YOU CAN'T!
PM Harper of Canada said recently:
"criticism of Israeli government policy is not in and of itself necessarily anti-Semitic.
But what else can we call criticism that selectively condemns only the Jewish state and effectively denies its right to defend itself, while systematically ignoring - or excusing - the violence and oppression all around it?
What else can we call it when Israel is routinely targeted at the United Nations?
And when Israel remains the only country to be the subject of a permanent agenda item at the regular sessions of its Human Rights Council?
Ladies and gentlemen, any assessment – any judgment – of Israel's actions must start with this understanding:
In the sixty-five years that modern Israel has been a nation, Israelis have endured attacks and slanders beyond counting and have never known a day of true peace.
And we understand that Israelis live with this, impossible calculus: If you act to defend yourselves, you will suffer widespread condemnation, over and over again.
But, should you fail to act, you alone will suffer the consequence of your inaction, and that consequence will be final, your destruction."
That's the PM of CANADA talking … YOU need to listen!
Australia's current PM & FM are NOT taking YOUR POV … they have taken the OPPOSITE POSITION … that is, defending Israel and its right to exist as a liberal democratic state.
The fact that YOU want to limit democracy at work … that is, information flow is quite telling! You'd like it if ONLY YOUR OPINIONS get spouted? Then take your POV to the Arab/Muslim Hate sites where YOU'D be welcome … afraid of listening/reading ideas and concepts that are NOT what you've taken as 'real' that's on YOU.
Rest easy in your 'comfortable' abode in Aussie … moral relativism and cultural relativism are endemic in the West … 'it's coming and it won't be long'! Remember … 'THE FUTURE IS ABOUT TO LAND'
Daryl, you do understand that you argument is ad hominem, I hope? Address content not the personality of the author -- as you see it -- of any particular piece.
You should also know that the defense to alleged libel is the truth. Please, explain where I am in error.
When was the last time the Palestinian Authority was any way involved in an act of terror? Even Hamas renounced violence a few years ago, except in retaliation to Israeli violence against them. What s extraordinary is not that they attack every time Israel breaks a ceasefire, but that there are times when Israel attack and they don't retaliate. There are other groups in Gaza, such as Islamic Jihad, that Hamas does not completely control.
IDF attacks, on the other hand, often against unarmed civilians, including women and children, are unquestionably state sponsored.
You say:
'When was the last time the Palestinian Authority was any way involved in an act of terror?'
This is the wrong question. Tactical decision on when to use what method is one thing. Having this as a legitimate tool strategically, to be used anytime the PA deems fit - is another.
The Palestinian now focus of Israel's de-legitimization, an area where they are doing pretty well... diplomatically, that is. Not that this will bring them any closer to the goal of Israel's destruction, though. When they realize that, they won't hesitate to pick up arms again.
Maybe we are reaching that point, Whach 'moderate' PLO's Tawfiq Tirawi and Jibril Rajoub, just in the last couple of weeks, talking about armed resistance:
You say:
'Even Hamas renounced violence a few years ago...'
This is an outright lie!
Just watch Hamas Interior Minister, talking aboiut the establishment of a world-wide Caliphate, and calling upon Arabs in Gaza, West Bank, and '1948 Arabs', Israeli Arabs, ion order to 'uproot the Jews':
There was never a cease fire, since Hamas kept dripping rockets on Israel at times of 'relative quiet', and a barrage of those when Hamas sought escalation. Hamas fire NEVER ceased.
You say:
'There are other groups in Gaza, such as Islamic Jihad, that Hamas does not completely control.'
This is the biggest joke of all - Palestinian leader pretending he 'can't control' other Palestinians. Are you a leader, or are you not? - If Abbas can't control Gaza, what's the point in negotiating with him at all? - Anyway, Hamas declares it won't respect PLO agreements with Israel, because for Hamas, the end game is having NO Israel at all!
Using other terror organization claiming "oh, it's not me, it's them" is a game of the past. Anyone firing from Gaza is Hamas responsibility.
You lie again when you say:
'IDF attacks, on the other hand, often against unarmed civilians, including women and children...'
Israel NEVER attacks innocents on purpose. Those are hurt usually because Hamas terrorists hide behind them. In numerous occasions Israel aborted missions because civilians were at risk.
The more civilian Palestinians casualties there are, the more Hamas is happy; this way 'useful idiots' can then get to the media, show pictures of casualties, and talk about 'Israel going after women and children'..
Perfidious Albion.
The Rothschilds (part owners of this magazine) are hardly perfidious when it comes to supporting Israel. Nor was Britain's last Jewish prime minister - Benjamin Disraeli - and the next - Ed Milliband.
The average Englishman had little time for the apartheid regime in South Africa or their modern-day equivalent in Israel, but I suspect Mr. Milliband would like to get elected so will emphasise the fact that being Jewish does not mean one is a Zionist.
You say:
'The average Englishman had little time for the apartheid regime in South Africa or their modern-day equivalent in Israel'.
The real apartheid in in Saudi Arabia, where gender and religious apartheid exists:
But this doesn't bother you, does it?
The Israel=apartheid nonsense, is the proof that anti-Israel bashers are truly out of real arguments..:
No-one is suprised by the behavior of Saudi Arabia's medieval tyrants but they don't pretend to be anything else. Israel cloaks it's mendacity in a charade of modernism and accuses critics of anti-semitism as though Israelis are unique in having been victimised. Chinese were slaughtered by Japanese, Armenians by Turks, Slavs by Nazis, Kurds by Iraqis, Indians by Americans. What happened to the Jews in WW2 was terrible but the holocaust wasn't the first such event and almost certainly won't be the last.
You say:
'No-one is suprised by the behavior of Saudi Arabia's medieval tyrants but they don't pretend to be anything else.'
Who gives a damn what Saudi rulers pretend or not to be?! - Human rights suppose to be universal. No-one should get a pass meeting those universal standards!
Show me the line in any human rights law you pick, that states something like "oh, and when it comes to Arab tyrants, we do not really expect them to follow universal standards, so they are excepted from meeting human rights obligations". Can you?
There are no discounts on human rights! - No double standards!!
Holding Israel to standard reserved only to Israel is racist. Not expecting Saudi Arabia to adhere to the same standards is also racist. What are you saying? - That Arabs are some sort of lesser people, retarded, idiots, that can't be expected to meet the same laws that Israel, UK, and US are expected to meet? - Do you really support such a supremacist approach??
One can't exercise racism against Jews, and expect to avoid claims of being Antisemitic. It has nothing to do with being a victim or not.
When you demand that Israel meets a specific 'global standard', but discriminate Israel by having only her be judged based on that standard - this is racism.
If you yell 'Israel violates human rights!' (regardless if that claim is valid or not), but at the same time remain silent on human rights violations in, say, Iraq for Christians ethnic cleansing; or Iran for executing people in the rate of two a day; or Saudi Arabia for women's apartheid; or Pakistan for placing women on trial for adultery if they are raped - then human rights is not your concern.
In such a case, 'human rights' are just made a punch line abused in order to go after the Jewish State. That's racist.
About the atrocities list you mentioned - There are two thing unique about the Holocaust, in comparison to the other genocides you mentioned:
First, it was a campaign designed to annihilate an entire people, down to the last individual! - See the Wannsee list of 11 million Europe's Jews to be exterminated. They didn't forget even to place in there Albania's 200 Jews they wanted to lay their hands on.
Second, The Nazis built an entire murder operation in order to execute that plan, from a Europe-wide Jews trafficking system, to camps designed for their slaughter, and in those camps mass destruction tools were recruited to perform the task, along side crematoriums to burn the millions of corpses turning them ashes.
No other genocide had such an elimination target planned, and no other built the tools to execute such a plan. There was nothing like that during the entire human history.
The only parallel is the slaughter of the Armenians by the Turks … but even that was old fashioned BUTCHERY and DEATH MARCHES!
The Holocaust was a singular event of INDUSTRIAL MURDER that is WITHOUT PRECEDENT! May it NEVER befall another people.
The fact that mankind is capable of killing is evidenced in the fact that WAR is NEVER going to end. BUT that isn't what the Holocaust was about!
Your giving short shrift to the argument that Saudi Arabia is a worse case … or that Syria is … or that Yemen is … or that Sudan is … or that Egypt is … PROVES the point that NO DOUBLE STANDARDS ARE ALLOWED … do not engage in pointing YOUR FINGER at Israel as if they are the ONLY STATE on Planet Earth looking after their OWN interests at the expense of others!
It's YOUR remarks that make the point of racist clear:
"The Rothschilds (part owners of this magazine)"
"last Jewish prime minister - Benjamin Disraeli - and the next - Ed Milliband."
"Mr. Milliband would like to get elected so will emphasise the fact that being Jewish does not mean one is a Zionist"
"Israel cloaks it's mendacity in a charade of modernism"
"as though Israelis are unique in having been victimised"
"What happened to the Jews in WW2 was terrible but the holocaust wasn't the first such event"
Don't like Jews? I get it. They should stop 'whining' about the Holocaust? Don't like to be reminded DAILY of the atrocity? No one is asking YOU to show up at Holocaust Day …
BUT I failed to notice any references to BRITAIN or BRITISH PEOPLE perpetrating any wrong doing in your 'little list' of atrocities?
LIKE YOU'RE BLAMELESS AND FREE OF TAINT? Blimy!
The US government supports both the Saudi Regime and Israel, as well as other oppressive and unjust governments around the world. Those of us who care about peace and justice for all are aware of this and opposed to it.
Your comment:
The USA is now friends with Iran, its new ally in the region. Iran and the Shiites now replace Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the other Sunnis as America's allies.
This US-initiated rapprochement with Iran started already back in 2009, when the US
administration remained conspicuously silent after millions of Iranians took
to the streets, protesting the stealing of their votes.
In contrast, Obama was as fast as a lightning to demand that Mubarak leaves,
immediately after trouble emerged in Egypt, the leader of the Sunni world.
It continued with a US-Iranian agreement to let US flee Iraq without being
attacked in the process, and delaying the chaos in Iraq till after Obama's
administration has ended. Iran failed to deliver on the second part..
The US provides strong support to Iraq's Shiite rulers in their fight against the Iraqi Sunnis, who are breaking up as well from Iraq (following the Kurds).
A similar US-Iran agreement is in the making, to allow American flight out of
Afghanistan, unhurt as much as possible. Iran of course demands something in
return - tough handling of Israel, the former US ally.
It follows with last year's agreement to keep Iran's partner, Assad, in power
(also falsely known as the agreement to dismantle Syria of its chemical
It is accompanied by constant angering of the Middle East Sunnis. Saudi
Arabia knows it is the next to be abandoned by the US. After all, in couple
of years the US will become the largest oil producer of the world. Saudi
Arabia is set to become a USA... competitor! We have come to the point where
Kerry can't set foot anymore in Egypt, not to mention Libya. By the time
Obama's term is over, Kerry is set to become a persona non grata in the
entire region, except Iran and Syria's Assad..
The latest service Obama did for the Ayatollahs, is avoiding the economic
knock-out to Iran and its nuclear program, literally saving them by the bell.
This was done through this interim agreement on Iran's nuclear military
program. The centrifuges continue to spin, as you know.
Obama further extends the service to Iran, promising to veto Congressional
sanctions, planned to become effective only if following the six months Iran
won't live up to its commitments.
Oh, the Ayatollahs just love the USA!... the US is fast leaving the Middle
East, and Iran is just happy to fill in the vacuum, spreading its terror in
Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Yemen, and wherever they can, in growing intensity.
Any $ they will now get from the easing economic pressure, will go straight
to promote more instability and Shiite domination. All this, thanks to the
You can be relaxed, guest-smlmioi. The USA has new friends now. Saui Arabia and Israel are things of the past..
Like Bob Dylan wrote:
"I was so much OLDER then
I'm YOUNGER than that NOW"
So REALLY you're mad at YOUR own government for supporting Israel (& Saudi Arabia) … next time let your Congressman/woman & Senator know it'll do you good to use the system
Gender apartheid? Israeli spin..................you can do better than that.
Spin? - Tell this to Saudi women, who can't get a driving license in Saudi Arabia, because they are women.
Under Saudi law, all females must have a male guardian, typically a father, brother or husband. The guardian has duties to, and rights over, the woman in many aspects of civic life.
Here are some highlights from a UN Human Rights Council report following a visit to Saudi Arabia:
Probably the worst of all, is girl marriage. The UN report says:
"No law determines the age of marriage and child marriage is not prohibited. The practice is
based on sharia precepts, whereby maturity is associated with puberty, which could start as early
as 9 for girls. The Grand Mufti Sheikh Abd al-Aziz Al-Sheikh, the head of the Council of Senior
Religious Scholars, has recently been quoted in the media as saying that a 10 or 12-year-old girl
is marriageable."
Where is the international roar about this piece of human rights rape! - Where is the outcry of all those 'human rights' organizations, calling to end forced marriage at childhood??
The report goes on:
"Sex segregation and the practice of male guardianship pose important obstacles to
women's autonomy, legal capacity as adults, and ability to participate in the full range of
activities available in society and in the workplace."
There is more:
"Women's low participation in the
workforce is attributed to the mismatch between educational outputs and employment
opportunities, women's lack of freedom of movement and restrictions emanating from the
guardianship system."
"Guardianship indeed severely limits women's autonomy, freedom of movement and the exercise of their legal capacity in relation to marriage, divorce, child custody, inheritance, and property
ownership/control,24 as well as decision-making in family matters, education and employment. In general, the guardianship system renders women's legal position precarious."
Here is the full UN report:
Saudi gender apartheid is real, not an 'Israeli spin', as you suggest.. Any chance YoungWeber, you'll launch a campaign to boycott Saudi Arabia for this gender apartheid??
In addition to PGGM, we also have Danske Bank, that added one Israeli bank to its list of excluded companies. Also here, it is the ONLY excluded bank in the world "involved in activities in conflict with international humanitarian law" - REALLY?!?
Here is Danske Bank's excluded companies list:
It looks like there is a guiding hand here. Either EU governments encourage companies to exclude Israeli banks; or European Banks submit to BDS threats, making those banks "offers they can not refuse", or they just want to appeal to anti-Israeli sentiments and attract inventors who likes this approach.
It simply make no sense; If the criteria for excluding Bank Hapoalim is for being "involved in activities in conflict with international humanitarian law", no doubt there are many others. Danske bank acts in a discriminatory way.
There must be something that can be done against this wrongful practice.
Thank you for providing Danske Bank's list of excluded companies - see this link:
The list proves the high ethical standards of this bank. It also proves that you are suffering from a very high degree of paranoia - e.g., the list includes the following companies:-
- Lockheed Martin;
- Dongfeng Motor Company;
- Sterlite Industries India;
- General Dynamics;
- Hyundai Motor Company;
- Potash Corporation of Saskatchewan;
- Singapore Technologies;
- Jiangxi Hongdu;
- Textron Inc.;
- General Dynamics Corporation;
- European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company ;
- Etc.;
- Etc.
None of these are Israeli companies.
According to Dr. Finkelstein, the famous authority on paranoid behavior, paranoia is a complex disease which has several different types, as follows:-
1. Persecutory paranoia - This is the most prevalent type of paranoia, and in this patient makes himself believe that all those around him are his enemies, bent on harming him or even taking his life. In this delusion people of an aggressive temperament often turns dangerous killers.
2. Delusion of Grandeur - In this patient believes himself to be, a great individual, and according to Bleuler, this delusion of grandeur accompanies a persecutory delusion.
3. Religious paranoia - Here the patients suffer from a permanent delusion of a primarily religious nature. He for example believes, that he is the messenger of God who has been sent to the world to propagate some religion.
4. Reformatory paranoia - In this the patient turns to considering himself a great reformer. He accordingly looks upon all those around him. As suffering from dangerous disease, and believes that he is their reformer and curator.
5. Erotic paranoia - Here the patient often tends to believe that some members of the family of the opposite sex, belonging to an illustrious family, want to marry him. Such people even write love letters and there by, cause much botheration to other people.
6. Litigious paranoia - In this kind the patient takes to feeling meaningless cases against other people and feels that people are linked together to bother him. Sometimes he, even tries to murder.
7. Hypochondrical paranoia - In this kind the patients believes that he is suffering from all kind of ridiculous diseases, and also that some other people are to blame for his suffering.
We can safely rule out No. 5 and 7 - you should see a specialist on the other 5 varieties.
L6 - Danske Bank, this 'highly ethical standards' institution of yours, had no problem with servicing a North Korean missile companies trading with Iran, both under sanctions. What does that tell you?
As mentioned in the above wikileaks link, it is mentioned:
"FOR DENMARK ONLY: — We previously raised with you in March 2006 our concern (REF L) that Tanchon Commercial Bank maintained a correspondent account with Den Danske Bank AS- Copenhagen. According to April 2009 Bankers Almanac information, Tanchon still maintains that account."
The US State Department had warned Danske Bank about their providing services to Tachnon in 2006, and the bank apparently chose to ignore it, despite the "legal and ethical" issues it raised.
Thank you, L6, showing again the Danske Bank excluded companies. It shown again that the ONLY bank on earth Danske Bank has ethical problems with is an Israeli bank. And you find this 'ethical'? - Give me a break, will ya??
Trying to deny facts by attributing paranoia to the presenter of those facts only undermines your position, L6. If you need to blame mental illness to avoid dealing with facts, it only shows you have no real counterargument.. Keep on the good work!
Indeed yes, and here's a interesting stat for all you anti-semites and Israel denigrators out there in blogland.
Jews comprise a bit less less than .2% of the world's population, and rather less than 2% of the population of the USA.
Since 1901 when the Nobel prize was first awarded, Jews have won 22% of all Nobel prizes, and about 37% of the Nobel prizes awarded to US citizens.
Since WW2 the citizens of Denmark, a country with a similar population to the Jewish population of the State of Israel, have won a grand total of 4 Nobel prizes.
The world could probably struggle quite well along without Danes, but perhaps not so easily without the Jews.
While the fact that Danske Bank managed to find in the entire world just this one Israeli bank as one that violates its 'ethics' seems very clearly to be driven by an agenda, I won't take through the path of weighing Danish 'worth'. Generalization is wrong.
If the entire world today would be one which its conduct is similar to the one of Denmark's (I mean, before the time it was an occupier itself in Norway, etc.; some say they are still in Greenland..), the world we live in would be a much better place!
Every people has the right to exist, and if one of its institutions misbehaves, the proper way would be demand that the wrong action is ratified. Dialogue is the best way moving forward on such issues.
In the case of Denmark as a whole, I would be extremely cautious with suggestions of Antisemitism being the reason for Danske Bank's actions.
Apart for the normal award of individuals who during WWII took great risks saving Jews from capture by the Nazis and their helpers, Denmark is the ONLY nation that as such was recognized as The Righteous Among The Nations.
This recognition was made thanks to their organized activity to smuggle almost the entire Danish Jewish population over night by boats to neutral Sweden. The Danish people had done so at great risk for themselves, something they will be remembered for, for eternity.
Not enough Jews in Denmark … looks like they should recruit with incentives … like giving away Blonde wigs and herring!
BUT the Danes did good work for the Danish Jews in WWII … so ya gotta love them …
You said: "… Dr. Finkelstein, the famous authority on paranoid behavior …"
Huh? Another Jew? Oy vey!
As a medical dr myself … I attest YOU to be:
2. Delusion of Grandeur - In this patient believes himself to be, a great individual, and according to Bleuler, this delusion of grandeur accompanies a persecutory delusion.
If you're in a tall building … don't wait JUMP! It'll be over sooner than you can imagine!
Israel isn't a hot bed of technilogical innovation. You can check the numbers yourselves. Israel produces fewer patent applications than Spain; and it has about the same number of universities in global tertiary education rankings as Ireland. Yet one never sees Ireland or Spain being described in the international press in such flattering; why should Israel? And unlike true small high tech powerhouses, Israel has a consumption driven economy and large current account deficits that depend on foreign cash inflows - in the form of either investment or aid - to preclude that deficit from provoking a currency meltdown. That Israel is some sort of high-tech autarchy is a laughable notion; if not only trade but also aid and investment were cut off, the country's economy would crumble. That Israel has survived boycotts from past decades due to some sort of adaptability, of some virtuous resilience capable of adapting itself ingenuously to pressing external circumstances, is also wrong. For starters, Israel has always had powerful patrons. The Soviet Union, France, now the US - Israel has never been left on its own (unlike its adversaries, specially Palestinians). Whatever Israel has been able to build by way of development is due to a combination of foreign aid with the fact that so many Diaspora Jews are high-value human capital, and, in some points in history, such as the Soviet Union's breakdown, they've given Israel some high quality immigrants.
Israel's PR campaign of rebranding, of giving itself a new face other than its military-expansionist one, has for the most part failed - but no thanks to guillible or disingenuous Western journalists, who re all so willing to aid Israel in its public diplomacy campaign, including by touting the self-serving clichés with little grounding on reality.
"Israel produces fewer patent applications than Spain"
Isn't the population of Spain 47,000,000 people?
And, isn't the population of Israel about 8,000,000 people?
And is the ratio between the two populations on the order of 6:1?
That doesn't tell you anything about why Israel might produce fewer patent applications?
If the goal of Israel was military expansion they'd have done it long ago. The right wing crazies would have been unleashed and there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left in Gaza and the West Bank. Over the last 60 years there's been multiple opportunities, but it could be done at any time. Its only in twisted anti-Israel propaganda that brave and strong resistance fighters have kept the Zionists at bay.
You say:
'Israel's PR campaign of rebranding, of giving itself a new face other than its military-expansionist one...'
Hmmm. Let's see:
1979-1982 - Israel withdraws from Sinai - 90% of the area it occupied in 1967.
1993 - Israel withdraws from areas in Gaza an Jericho.
1994-1996 - Israel withdraws from all major Palestinian cities; 99% of all Palestinians administered by their own government.
2000 - Israel withdraws from Lebanon.
2005 - Israel completes withdrawal from the remaining of Gaza.
Some expansionist country, I tell you..
You must be wrong about the state of the economy vis a vis current account deficits?
The former Govenor of the Bank of Israel was Stanley Fischer who knew/knows his stuff and left everything in order … he was shopped around for some top jobs in the Bank Biz and ended up as a Vice Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank USA !!!
Prove your point about the current account deficit leading to a currency meltdown!
AS WE SPEAK … Turkey is suffering through a CURRENT ACCOUNT DEFICIT and is struggling to find 'cheap' $$$ … they may go down the tube and the Turkish LIRA is SINKING!! BUT Turkey is not Israel …
Those moves are hardly significant, because Israeli expansionism is only focused on reuniting the land of Biblical Israel. Sinai, Lebanon and even Gaza are unimportant. Withdrawals from West Bank cities isn't very important either, since Israeli forces still surround them and control everything coming and going from them.
NeoKN, there is so much wrong with your argument I don't know where to begin. I guess I will start with the characterization of Israel's economy. The patent statistic you referenced in completely irrelevant. Are ten patents for plastic TV consumer junk worth one truly revolutionary tech patent? Of course not. The engineering students coming out of Israeli universities as well as their military have produced truly remarkable results over the last fifteen years for a nation of such small population. Any belief to the contrary is not based in reality. Check your sources and try again.
"Israel's PR campaign of rebranding, of giving itself a new face other than its military-expansionist one, has for the most part failed" - your comment.
You are absolutely right. The Israeli cabinet has met twice in the past 4 weeks just to discuss this issue - i.e., how to stop the increasing popularity of an entirely non-violent movement. Here is the whole story:
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Here's a interesting stat for NEO KN and all you other anti-semites and Israel denigrators out there in blogland.
Jews comprise a bit less less than .2% of the world's population, and rather less than 2% of the population of the USA.
Since 1901 when the Nobel prize was first awarded, Jews have won 22% of all Nobel prizes, and about 37% of the Nobel prizes awarded to US citizens.
Since WW2 the citizens of Denmark, a country with a similar population to the Jewish population of the State of Israel, have won a grand total of 4 Nobel prizes.
The world could probably struggle quite well along without Danes, but perhaps not so easily without the Jews.
No, it doesn't. A country's impact on world technological innovation is driven by raw patent numbers, not patents per capita, just like a country's import to the global market is better gauged by raw GDP numbers rather than GDP per capita. Plus, several small countries, mostly in western Europe, produce per year equal to several times as many patent applications as Israel - including per capita. Belgium and Switzerland are examples; these countries are known for a great good things; not really as major centers for world technologocal production - they are never the object of acknowledgment and fawning that Israel is. Just do the Google test. This is among the few successes that Israel's rebranding campaign has acquired.
Blah blah blah, Jews are superior, they're the Master R... I mean, Chosen People, I get it, I get it.
But these are Diaspora Jews. They live far better than Israeli Jews, have better rates of educational attainment and for forth. Whereas the average US Jew has three times the income of the average American, the average Israeli is 25% poorer. It seems Israel has gotten the short end of world Jewry distribution and therefore not many things we say of the latter may apply to the former.
On EVERY index you can rate countries … ISRAEL IS at or near the TOP!
On the Happy Planet Index … Israel is FIRST (OECD) country … their Life expectancy is 3rd in the World
Blah … blah … blah
So the idea that $$$$ IS EVERYTHING … isn't true … sorry! Why even the Saudis … in this very magazine are portrayed as: No satisfaction
Despite their immense wealth, the Saudis are not happy … Look it up … LOL
Israel left the West Bank, only to be 'invited back' following the Passover massacre in Netanya's Park Hotel, where 31 Israelis were blown up to pieces.
After hundreds of innocent dead Israelis, being the outcome of leaving the Palestinians on their own, Israel got the message and reacted in kind - renewed its intervention in the West bank cities, constructed the security fence, etc. It worked!
End Palestinian existential aggression against Israel, and peace will come.
Israeli GDP/capita has grown from $15,600, to $38,310(!). This is staggering growth. With emerging markets collapsing in Argentina and Turkey, having local currencies plummet, and interest rates go through the roof, in Israel the interest rate is 1%, and the central banks buys US$ to try and control the strengthening of the Israeli Shekel.
Talking in GDP/capita terms, Israel already surpasses those of Greece, Italy, and Spain, and is just slightly lower than those of Britain, France, and Germany. All this is before the revenues from gas sales, which are expected to start to kick in within couple of years.
The significance of that is even more impressive, when you take in account the reproduction rate of ~3 kids/woman - the highest among OECD nations. This means that Israelis really need to work hard to increase the per capita GDP.
So yes, Israel still has a way to go till it makes it to US levels. But the trend is clear..
Israel's growth in GDP from ~$15K to $38K is from 2003 to 2013.
Also, look at The Economist ranking of the best countries to be born in in 2013, in comparison to 1988. In this 25 year period, Israel climbed from 30th place to 20th. The US declined from 1st, to 16th. Israel now surpasses Japan, France, and the UK.
No wonder then, that French Jewry now migrates out of France in growing numbers, some of which are headed to Israel. The more time that lapses, with Israel's economy constant improvement, while Europe's economy declines, couple with growing Antisemitism there, we're expected to see more Jews from affluent countries go home, to Israel.
Perhaps the larger point is that more and more people around the world will be willing to forgo certain brands of cellphones and computers as they become more aware of exactly what they are supporting by buying those products.
Is the real goal of the BDS movement the imposition of their one state solution of a Jewish minority in an Israel renamed Palestine, or are they actually not as dumb as they seem? The most likely consequence of a full on international boycott would be a decrease in the high economic prosperity of Israel. That would undoubtedly cause some people to immigrate, but Israel wasn't a terribly comfortable place when it was born. Perhaps the Palestinian leaders of the BDS movement realize that the majority of the Israel population would remain and fight even in the face of a full blockade, and the Jewish diaspora would continue to support them. Or perhaps not. There seems to be a self imposed blindness to the history of Israel. The same reasons for the creation of Israel still exist today. Those reasons, at least inititally, did not involve living in a prosperous economy. Militarily as well there might be an effect, but Israel would still be the strongest and best military in the Middle East. The only certain effect of a successful BDS movement would be the strengthening of the Israeli far right and a permanent full on 1948 war mode. Possibly the imposition of the far right's own "one state solution". Perhaps that's why Abbas isn't overtly supporting BDS? Remove diplomacy that has any benefits for Israel from the equation and all you've done is strengthen the Israeli crazies.
You say:
'The most likely consequence of a full on international boycott would be a decrease in the high economic prosperity of Israel.'
Israel's Finance Minister speculated that in case of heavy European boycott, Israel's export to Europe might decline in 20%. Since Israel's export to Europe amount to about 30% of its overall exports, then this means a drop in 6% of the overall Israel export.
The irony is that in times of economic crisis, people tend to run back to the US$. This will mean a depreciation of the local Israeli currency vs. the US$. It might even drop in 10%.
the funny thing is that this will be great news to Israeli exporters, who make their revenue in foreign currency, but have their expenses in Israeli Shekels!!
Make no mistake - in such a European decline in purchases of Israeli goods, no doubt businesses be closed an workers laid off. But from macro economics standpoint, if Israeli exports decline in 6%, but the local currency depreciates in 10%, Israeli economy will be better off!!
It is revealing to see some of the companies which exclude Israeli business, supposedly for ethical, or global principals they uphold.
PGGM's list of excluded companies has several dozens of companies in there. However, the five Israeli banks PGGM excludes, are the ONLY banks in their excluded companies' list. This is conspicuous, particularly for the fact that the reason they mention for those banks exclusion is "engagement on activities contrary to international humanitarian law".
So humanitarian law is PGGM's concern, hey? - thousands are dead in Mexico's drug wars, and not a single bank is involved in such, which is in need of exclusion? - Turkish banks are doing business in occupied Northern Cyprus, aren't those in need of exclusion? - No Iranian, or Chinese, or Syrian bank is involved in "activities contrary to international humanitarian law", by financially facilitating the crimes against humanity taking place in Syria??
PGGM, like other organizations implement double standards when it comes to Israeli banks. Eventually, therefore, this will collapse.
Its long been noted that its easy to detect the anti-semitism behind BDS by the exclusive focus on Israel. The other factor, of course, is that the majority of the movements leaders are Palestinians and Palestinian sympathizers dedicated to the end of the Jewish state. They try to draw a line between hatred of Jews and hatred of a Jewish state, but not many people are buying that.
BDS is a grassroots Palestinian movement. Of course they focus on Israel.
I wouldn't define PGGM's decision as anti-Semitic. First - PGGM denies any boycott intentions. Secondly - PGGM still invests some 100 million euros in some 100 Israeli companies.
I know this make FROY, sad, buts this is it at this point.
I sill think there is an hidden agenda here; it simply can't be that the only banks on their list are Israelis..
Palestinians failed with their armed aggression, so they turn to BDS. No much success thus far.
PGGM denied BDS on Israel. they invests 100 million euros in other Israeli companies..
FROY … grass is relatively cheap and easy to access … all you need is a 'hangup' … this works: Just tell them you … oh I forgot what I was gonna say … LOL
I participated in the Anti-apartheid Divestment Movement in the 1980s. That was exclusively focused on South Africa. Was that an Anti-White South African Movement?
The false equation of Palestinian rights with antisemitism is becoming increasingly untenable.
There is one amateur propagandist on this column who thinks it's a good idea to comment on every posting with the consequence that as soon as his name appears, that comment is ignored. But would it not be a good idea to prohibit posting more than 5% of the total correspondence to save everyone's time and retain credibility to the comments as a whole?
Hello? Tony … does that mean YOU GET TO SHUT UP? Good!
There is nothing to illustrate the Israeli deception than Benyamin Netanyahu speech two years ago at the UN. He went on a dramatic diatribe describing his attachment to the land by acting a scene in front of hundreds of millions of viewers on TV, of how tears came to his eyes when he saw an inscription somewhere in Israel with the name of an old priest called Netanyahu. How touching! Only problem is that his real name is "Mileikowsky" and his zionist father historian decided to change his name to Netanyahu. The Mileikowskys came to Palestine as zionists in the first half of the 20th century from the old Russian empire. Avigdor Lieberman, his foreign minister and the leader of the extreme right party Israel Beitenu was born and grew up in the soviet union (Moldova) and is one of millions who benefited from the collapse of the Soviet union (with the support and cheering of the western world and media) to emigrate to Israel, displacing and dis-possessing more Palestinians.
Peace will come to the middle east when three things happen:
1) the Israelis and Arabs start being more honest with themselves. F W DeKlerk somewhere in Israel? Mandela somewhere in Palestine?
2) when the western powers that supported, or at least gave a blind eye, to the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the last century start taking responsibility. Kerry's efforts is at least a start.
3) when the word Arab is again associated with the Arab culture to which tens of millions of Christians and Jews belong and stops being associated with crazy jihadists that were created as a result of several recent conflicts and geo-political machinations. The debate today is all about Jews and moslems, one of the most serious crimes against humanity is being ignored: "the ethnic cleansing of millions of Christians from Palestine and the whole Levant". These people have been living there since Christ and some of them still speak his language.
Wow. So you want to live in Sesame Street … it's a TV show! The 'real world' is UGLIER!
READ anything by Raymond Ibrahim if you have empathy for the Christians in the Middle East … but if you think there's going to be a resurgence of Christians in the Arab/Muslim World then you're DELUDED! The ONLY state in the Middle East where Christianity is GROWING is in the Jewish State of Israel where the 'rule of law' protects all citizens equally in a liberal democratic state!
Go have a coffee!
You say:
'when the western powers that supported, or at least gave a blind eye, to the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the last century start taking responsibility.'
The one in need to take responsibility is are the Palestinians. had they accepted the 1947 Partition Plan, there would be no war, no 'refugees' - only peace.
It is the Palestinians who need to take a look at the mirror!
You say:
'when the word Arab is again associated with the Arab culture...and stops being associated with crazy jihadists that were created as a result of several recent conflicts and geo-political machinations.'
The most defining and old Arab struggle is the 1300 year-old Sunni-Shiite conflict. This was put asleep for about a century of fake Arab nationalism. Now, with the collapse of the Arab states one by one, the Sunni-Shiite struggle is back at center stage. This is a world war that will last for years, if not decades.
You say:
'The debate today is all about Jews and moslems, one of the most serious crimes against humanity is being ignored: "the ethnic cleansing of millions of Christians from Palestine and the whole Levant.'
The Middle East gets drained of its Christian population. Israel is the only country in which Christian are physically safe, where they can prosper, and exercise their religion with the fear of their Church being set on fire, or their priest being beheaded.
BDS, Boycotting Israel is still restricted to crackpots. As far as I can tell, the only thing "new" is that The Economist, with a long anti-Israel history, has chosen to join its ranks.
Not much new here.
That's exactly what certain sorts of people said about apartheid South Africa.
Same pattern- with eventually (and hopefully) the same result- a relatively peaceful transition from an apartheid society, with a truth and reconciliation process.
That's exactly what certain sorts of people aid about apartheid South Africa.
Same pattern- with eventually (and hopefully) the same result- a relatively peaceful transition from an apartheid society, with a truth and reconciliation process.
Is the lobby that represents just 0.03% of Americans responsible for the virtual collapse of the Obama presidency?
America is the world's only superpower: a federation of states that is administered by a democratic president through an elected Congress.
However, an unelected lobby with a claimed membership of just 100,000 out of a population of over 300 million is said to have gained an undue influence within Congress, and the power of democratic government is alleged to have been usurped as a result.
The president now appears an irrelevant and impotent figure, barred from carrying out the duties for which he was popularly elected by majority vote. This has led to a travesty of democracy which is already giving rise to major political and economic repercussions around the world.
1. AIPAC, the American Israel lobby, is reported to be the most powerful foreign policy pressure group in the United States. It is unelected, privately funded and its agenda is to gain legislative advantage from Congress to benefit its foreign agenda.
2. AIPAC has a vetting program that investigates the voting record as well as the personal life of every applicant for the House of Representatives and the Senate, in addition to that of every sitting member of Congress. Any candidate or any incumbent who does not explicitly adopt the AIPAC agenda, is unlikely to win, or retain, a nominated seat.
3. AIPAC is alleged to have an unwarranted influence over the legislature, the White House and the Presidency, which negates the fundamental principles of democracy by using lobbying as a means of government that distorts the will of the majority.
4. AIPAC has succeeded in securing $3.1 billion in American aid for Israel in the fiscal year, paid for by US tax dollars. Plus an estimated $3 billion in loan guarantees. That equates to $20 p.a. from every American in order to give a notional individual benefit of $1000 a year to six million Israeli citizens.
5. AIPAC has been instrumental in framing the public debate over Iran's nuclear POWER program so as to meet the political demands of its client state that holds the world's only undeclared nuclear WEAPONS arsenal estimated to conceal up to 400 warheads, all outside the remit of the IAEA.
78 % of Jewish Americans voted for Barak Obama.
Jews are not Israelis, Deborah! The majority of Jews do not live in Israel and have no wish to do so. Netanyahu and the coalition do not speak for Jews only for themselves, AIPAC and the minority of the Israeli electorate that voted Likud. Zionism is NOT Judaism not matter what Netanyahu would have you believe. The settlements ARE illegal according to international law! They are CONDEMNED by the US, UK, EU and the UN! In other words the world!
Facts are sacred!
AIPAC is an American organisation, not an Israeli. These are the facts.
Devorah answered your rant! AIPAC is an AMERICAN lobby group … not an Israeli lobby group! Hello?
You asked: "Is the lobby that represents just 0.03% of Americans responsible for the virtual collapse of the Obama presidency?"
He's an incompetent boob! He hasn't gotten a Domestic agenda and his foreign policy is a MESS!
What a joke!
Syria … red lines and I'll attack and the next moment … acquiescing to the Russians? What?
Iran … making a 'phony' 6 month deal … when it's clear the Iranians are doing nothing but getting closer to their goal and with the $$$ BIllions in sanctions relief? What?
Let's hope nothing else goes wrong on his watch!
AIPAC is part of an American lobby group acting for a foreign state. It was originally subject to restriction under the Foreign Agents Act but subsequently released from such as a result of lobbying!
And it was Barak Obama who, in a loud exclamatory voice, stated in the State of the Union, the most important political speech of the year, that "The United States stands with, and will continue to support the Jewish state of Israel." Not the democratic anti-apartheid state of Israel that might be renamed Palestine, but the "Jewish state". Very clear, and not a damn thing his administration has done, or proposes to do, gives any glimmer that he's lying, or has a secret agenda. It's only the right wing propaganda machine that insists that he's anti-Israel.
AIPAC has a strong pragmatic side. Yes, they have alot of far right supporters, but the AIPAC leadership recognizes the advantage of not alienating 50% of the US population. J Street seems to be making a large effort to move to the center as well.
The strength and influence of AIPAC is not a result of the outsize power of the 2% of Americans who are Jews. It comes from the 20% or more who consider themselves part of the Christian Right.
Supporting Israel by providing arms et al is what Obama is doing … NOTHING MORE
He forced Netanyahu to speak to Erdogan, Obama's 'friend' … BUT Erdogan has still NOT accepted Israel's hand!
He balked on 'attacking Syria's air force' …
He began a 'dialogue' with Islamist Iran … rather than ending their Nuclear Program
He abandoned Mubarak … and touted the Muslim Brotherhood
He has NO SAY in what's going on in Libya … after removing Gaddafi
He's a terrible President presiding over a declining power unable to get leverage in Iraq and Afghanistan after spending all that $$$ and blood!
Even his domestic agenda is a farce … with the 'poor' roll-out of his health program
You can't defend the 'golfer-in-chief' … 'come on man'!
It is acceptable again!
Jew-hating, that is.
In the immediate aftermath of WW II it was rather downmarket to be anti-Semitic. During the Interwar it was, of course, rather trendy, as the art of T.S. Elliott and Ezra Pound attests. Then, when the Camps were opened to public view, it all fell out of fashion. "Gentlemen's Agreement," an ever-so-careful film, the plot of which revolved around anti-Semitism, had a good box-office in the late 1940s. "Exodus," a few years later, was boffo among the movie-going public and its theme song, tinkled on a piano by Ferrari and Tshirt, was all over the world. Americans, for their part, seemed to chuck the Shylock stereotype overboard to embrace Molly Goldberg instead. Eddie Cantor . . . Jack Benny . . . Al Jolson . . . pretty hard to hate those folks!
Then came the Six Day War and the Jews morphed from victims into villains. It has been this way ever since.
The current anti-Semitic line is "I am not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist." Now, that is akin to saying "I am not anti-British, just anti-English." Zionism created the Israeli homeland and that homeland is largely filled with Jews. It is like telling a gay, "I just hate the sin, not the sinner!" Explain the difference to him!
The hive out of which this current swarm of anti-Semites has buzzed is not the KKK or the much-maligned, and largely imaginary, Rednecks. No . . . the source of all that nasty whine is academia. Always looking for a cause, the loonier the better, the professor-class has descended on Israel like blowflies around a wildebeest. Just a few weeks ago the association of American Studies professors announced its boycott of Israel and other academic organizations threaten also to rub their hind legs together to make a cricket-like uproar against the Jews.
We know that Israel is not faultless and that its hand can be heavy. We also know that next door to the Jewish state a violent military coup just overthrew the first freely elected Egyptian government since Pharoah's daughter was patching Moses' basket with pitch. And, from the chattering classes at our (tax-exempt) universities and colleges? Hardly a rumble of disapproval.
Syria is in the second year of its slaughterfest with an estimated 100,000 victims (so far), many of them killed with poison gas. And, our drones from the hive -- for thus indeed is the swarm of PhDs in "American Studies" -- do not do so much as waggle their antennae or perform a little dance to indicate the direction from which so much suffering comes.
Iraq . . . Afghanistan . . . Libya . . . Saudi Arabia . . . are these the bastions of freedom, women's rights and the Rule of Law that we should admire and encourage? Well, yes . . . if the mutterings of our academic friends is any indication. (Actually, the LACK of mutterings!)
Justify this to yourself however you can. Academia has selected the Jews to hate and given the rest of the truly abysmal (considered in terms of human rights) Middle East a pass.
As for me, you must not think I am anti-Academic! No, I merely despise the professors and administrators who fill academia. Surely, you can see the difference!
This 'anti-semitism' line is getting quite boring now. Apparently it indicates that both the Israeli government and people can be as barbaric as they like and with impunity to boot.
Before spewing out the 'anti-semitism' guff again, please do some research into what a 'semite' actually is. I'll help you though, your post suggests you need guidance. A 'semite' is someone who speaks a semitic language, only one of which is Hebrew, others include languages spoken in Syria and Palestine (yes, that place DOES exist, whether you like it or not). Thus, if you suggest that people hate Jews whilst supporting Palestinians, your argument rapidly reaches a dead-end.
Zionism is a political movement whose followers seek to take-over the rest of Palestine and more. Judaism is a religion.
It's interesting that you ask why actions in others countries, like Egypt are not also condemned. There is a big difference. You referred to the recent military coup, a single event. Academics generally don't do much work with middle eastern universities, for obvious reasons. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you. Barbarism against Palestinians from Israel has been going on for almost 70 years!
You consider locking-up hundreds of children in secret prisons, sometimes for years, without access to legal representation or family, being psychologically and physically abused, before being presented, shackled, to a military tribunal and charged with 'terrorism' for stone throwing to be 'heavy-handed'. Evidently you also consider objections to Israel's total control of Palestine's energy, medical and water supplies, imports and exports, law and order, it's fisheries. it's aerospace, tax, access to education and employment and discriminatory practices exercised therein, discriminatory practices exercised in Israel itself against Arabs (i.e. no social security if you do not sign an agreement that Israel is a Jewish state), destruction of homes in which Palestinians, including Bedouins have resided for generations to make way for Israeli Jews and the attempted sterilisation of unwitting Egyptian women en masse residing in Israel as 'loonies'.
You skirt around the real issues and love to point the finger at what's happening elsewhere. It's ironic that you also point to past offences committed against Jews, and yet when Jews who lived through those times and were actually affected speak out against Israel's barbarism they are often branded 'traitors' or even the default, really dull insult 'anti-semitism'.
Blah … blah … blah
You know who an anti-Semite is? YOU!
"the attempted sterilisation of unwitting Egyptian women en masse residing in Israel" LOL precious …
Well, we can call them "Jew-haters", if your prefer, just so there's no confusion, and Jew-hating is certainly on the increase in Europe, and Europe is becoming an increasingly dangerous place to be a Jew. "Get back to Israel" was the standard attitude before Israel existed. Now that it does, they're not supposed to be there either.
Politicians, of course,will inevitably follow where the wind is blowing. In most European countries Jews are a small and dwindling minority; Muslims are a larger and growing minority. So more votes there, and an increasingly attentive ear to their line on the Middle East.
I think Andros may be a little out chronologically as to when this change took place, which he dates to the Six Day War. I was still at school then, and well after the Six Day War spending what was not then called your gap year on a kibbutz was the No 1 cool thing to be doing. I think Israel only really started being the bad guys for western opinion-formers when South Africa could no longer fill this role. There's a certain kind of mindset which requires someone or something onto which to focus all your rage and moral outrage, and that was South Africa's place in the great scheme of things for as long as apartheid held up. After which Israel was chosen. Of course, very often the same people hate America passionately too, but anti-Americanism is an altogether larger and more all-embracing sentiment.
This 'anti-semitism' line is getting quite boring now. Apparently it indicates that both the Israeli government and people can be as barbaric as they like and with impunity to boot. - NO - these are lies. cursory check of media shows punishment for overstepping the line. plenty of limits self-imposed to minimize civilian casualties - who else warns people to get out of a building before bombing it?
Before spewing out the 'anti-semitism' guff again, please do some research into what a 'semite' actually is. I'll help you though, your post suggests you need guidance. A 'semite' is someone who speaks a semitic language, only one of which is Hebrew, others include languages spoken in Syria and Palestine (yes, that place DOES exist, whether you like it or not). Thus, if you suggest that people hate Jews whilst supporting Palestinians, your argument rapidly reaches a dead-end. - WAKE UP - the colloquial use of "anti-semitism" for a couple hundred years already means anti Jews.
Zionism is a political movement whose followers seek to take-over the rest of Palestine and more. Judaism is a religion. - Clearly you don't have real knowledge of what Judaism his - "If I forget thee o' Jerusalem, let me forget my right hand" / Abraham going where God sends him / temples only in Jerusalem / Jews in the land of Israel continuously for hundreds of years, even if poor and oppressed by whoever is ruling.
It's interesting that you ask why actions in others countries, like Egypt are not also condemned. There is a big difference. You referred to the recent military coup, a single event. Academics generally don't do much work with middle eastern universities, for obvious reasons. Should that not mean they should fight for those countries even harder - to give those countries at least the minimum academic freedom clearly enjoyed by Israelis? (irony!!)
I shouldn't have to spell it out for you. Barbarism against Palestinians from Israel has been going on for almost 70 years! - BLINDNESS to the Arab barbarism going back well before '48= masacre of Hebron Jewish community that existed for centuries - you ignore that inconvenient truth that Hebron was a Jewish city until the Arabs committed local genocide.
You consider locking-up hundreds of children in secret prisons, sometimes for years, without access to legal representation or family, being psychologically and physically abused, before being presented, shackled, to a military tribunal and charged with 'terrorism' for stone throwing to be 'heavy-handed'. - You watch too much TV and only read Arabic media.
Evidently you also consider objections to Israel's total control of Palestine's energy, medical and water supplies, imports and exports, law and order, it's fisheries. it's aerospace, tax, access to education and employment and discriminatory practices exercised therein, - SO HOW COME THE PALESTINIANS HAVEN'T USED THEIR BILLIONS IN AID TO CREATE THESE??? They owed the Israeli Electric company millions!! And that's just one example!
discriminatory practices exercised in Israel itself against Arabs (i.e. no social security if you do not sign an agreement that Israel is a Jewish state), destruction of homes in which Palestinians, including Bedouins have resided for generations to make way for Israeli Jews and the attempted sterilisation of unwitting Egyptian women en masse residing in Israel as 'loonies'. -lies not worthy of response
You skirt around the real issues and love to point the finger at what's happening elsewhere. It's ironic that you also point to past offences committed against Jews, and yet when Jews who lived through those times and were actually affected speak out against Israel's barbarism they are often branded 'traitors' or even the default, really dull insult 'anti-semitism'. - SO WHAT ABOUT PALESTINIANS who want to work with Israelis being marked for death by them? And you don't hear much from them because the PA does not have any of the free press Israel has. Your hearing such discourse is evidence of the freedoms in Israel!
Oh, I understand what "semitic" means. I lived in the Middle East and studied Arabic at the university level.
"The recent military coup, a single event?" Just like the Libyan civil war, the Saddam regime, the Syrian civil war, Nasser's police state . . . whole bunches of single events!
"Academics don't do much work with middle eastern universities for obvious reasons." Yes -- because they'll get their asses shot off by some nut.
The "real issue" is that Israel, with all its faults, is the only democratic state in the Middle East. It has a lot to answer for with its handling of the Palestinians but if offered a chance to be a permanent citizen of Israel or, say, Syria, which would most people choose?
The issue of the article, BTW, was academic boycotts. Why Israel when there are so many loathsome regimes in the Middle East? Simple -- it provides an excuse to hate Jews.
There are a lot of causes the Ivory Tower mob could make their own. What they've chosen is to hate Israel.
As I wrote, to say one despises Israel but is not anti-Semitic is like those hypocrites who say of gays, "I hate the sin but love the sinner." Actually . . . we know exactly who they hate.
Only people who aren't Jewish, or who don't identify as Jewish due to assimilation, can afford to live in ignorance of the history of anti-semitism and its continued existence. That is what is dooming the BDS movement to producing the opposite effect that they explicitly intend. All they're doing is strengthening the far right crazies.
There have been a build-up of events over many years which show that Israel is an apartheid state. You don't seem to have an understanding of the word 'democracy' either. 'Democracy', for instance, does not mean denying voting rights or social security to people based on their ethnicity/religion.
The Israeli government claims to offer 'permanent citizenship'to Jews globally, yet adopted a policy until recently of sterilising Egyptian women en masse. Now that's what I call hate.
People who support Israeli barbarism against Palestinians, like those who support discrimination in any form,see the world in very black and white terms. 'People hate us simply because we're Jewish'. You don't think, for instance, that indiscriminately bombing a people with white phophorous (and illegal weapon) or the Israelis conducting (and admitting to) a deliberate policy to 'starve' Palestinians is enough to cause hatred to Israelis by Palestinians. Try that on any nation and see what response you get.
Read and educate yourself a little.
It's interesting that you say that Israel became the 'bad guy' when South Africa could no longer fulfill this role. What exactly was it that made South Africa the 'bad guy'? It's deeply racist policies. And yet you don't see why Israel has so easily been likened to South Africa. That 'mindset' is one of anti-racism and anti-bigotry.
A 'cursory check of the media' shows that none of the IDF soldiers who have received complaints about undue aggression/violence over the last 10 years have been punished.
The term 'anti-semitism' is not even 200 years old and when it was coined in the mid-1800s it was used to define semitic raceS, not Jews specifically.
As your quote shows, clearly you can't see that Judaism doesn't state that God didn't say that Jews should have their own state. So if that idea didn't come from Judaism, where did it come from? Political ideology.
Hebron? What about a far more recent massacre, such as Sabra and Shatila?
"You watch too much TV and only read Arabic media."
- No, I read official UN and NGO documents, including those of the Red Cross/Cresecent and Save the Children.
" SO HOW COME THE PALESTINIANS HAVEN'T USED THEIR BILLIONS IN AID TO CREATE THESE??? They owed the Israeli Electric company millions!! And that's just one example!"
Anything of importance that Palestinians build Israel bombs. Evidently you are aware of the fact that Israel has not allowed ANY construction work to take place in Gaza since January 2013. Why would the Palestinians need to pay for occupiers for something that not only rightfully belongs to Palestinians, but was stolen by the Israelis who ration it amongst Palestinians yet seem to distribute it far more freely amongst Israelis? That is discriminatory practice, which you believe Palestinians should pay for.
"Lies not worthy of a response" - basic searches show my statements to be true. What you often find among people who hold discriminatory beliefs, they disregard any evidence that shows them for what they are.
"SO WHAT ABOUT PALESTINIANS..." - These people work for Sodastream because it pays more. Israel has a stranglehold on employment opportunities, imports/exports and the economy in Palestine, for which reason people are generally paid meagre wages.
Thank you for your comment.
I did not mean to imply that apartheid South Africa was not open to criticism - or that Israel is not.
What interested me in both cases was the highly selective (and, so, inevitably distorting) concentration of self-righteous (and in the end, I think, self-gratifying) moral indignation on one country.
Whatever side one wants to come down on - if you feel you must come down on one - in the mess of the Middle East, I don't think there can be much doubt that the bar is set higher for Israel. Perhaps that is a good thing: given its stronger democratic credentials, perhaps we are right to expect more of them.
1. Demand that Israel give their land to Palestine.
2. Demand that Palestine give their land to Israel.
3. Demand that Israel gets its own government.
4. Demand that Palestine gets its own government.
5. Demand that Israel never bombs Palestine.
6. Demand that Palestine never bombs Israel.
7. Demand that Israel gets its own way.
8. Demand that Palestine gets its own way.
Solution: two states occupying one location -- PalaceIsReal, divided electronically, united geographically.
He carried his book like a glittering crown in his lonely wander from town to town.
Wherever he found a listening crowd, he opened his book and read this aloud:
"I am the chosen, the royalty race, so crown me king of this pitiful place!
The keys of knowledge are in my hands with a title of ownership to all your lands!"
"Chosen!" they laughed before turning away."Chosen to suffer? Chosen to stray?
Chosen to sit at your ego-drawn feast? Chosen to carry the sign of the beast?"
Christ stood by this zionist's side and asked him to start using this as his guide:
"Love all your neighbors, as I have loved you. For your neighbors are God's chosen, too."
Look at the above and tell me again how Jews don't need a Jewish homeland.
Critics argue that the BDS campaign operates under a two-pronged approach in targeting Israel. First, is the defamation and demonization of Israel through inflammatory incitement depicting Israel as a racist, fascist, totalitarian, and apartheid state. Following the incitement is the specific targeting of Israeli diplomatic, economic, academic, and cultural targets—regardless of their position or connection to the conflict.[98] Furthermore, critics cite Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's rejection of the BDS as evidence that the BDS is not in the Palestinians' favor.
This is NOT NOW NOR WILL IT BE ACCEPTABLE to the JEWISH PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW SOVEREIGN inside the Jewish State of Israel!
There is NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. NO ONE STATE SOLUTION …
BTW … the Arab/Muslim boycott of Israel began long ago in the late 1940's and continues until TODAY … there are NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS with the Arab/Muslim states (except those that have signed treaties with Israel - Jordan, Egypt and Turkey) … the Turks have 'thrown out' the Israeli Ambassador … the Egyptians make sure no one remembers where the Embassy is … and the Jordanians keep the Ambassador close by just in case the King needs to be saved
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subset: commoncrawl