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Hello - we are less than two weeks away from heading to Rome for the holidays. The apartment firm has requested a payment in Euros Cash only of 2250e when we arrive and have inspected the place to our satisfaction. My question is this: we can exchange dollars to euros at our bank here before leaving but that is carrying a lot of cash around during transit. Or, we can up our ATM withdrawal limit to allow us to take the money out when we arrive (given it will be a Saturday, not sure if banks will be open or amenable). Or, we could take a cashier's check or something and hope to find a bank that will cash it for us. What have others done??
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Best option for Dollars to Euros for apartment payment"
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Forget the cashier's check idea. No bank in Europe will do business with you unless you have an account, and none will deal with a cashier's check in dollars. Getting your bank to give you euros before departure will probably cost you about 10% more than you should be paying, plus you've got the, risk of carrying around a huge wad of cash.
Open a second account just for this trip and get your bank to increase your limit for ATM withdrawals to the maximum. Make several withdrawals from both accounts in different ATM machines until you have enough cash. Using an ATM machine will be fine any day of the week, just like here in the USA. Or get an international draft in euros from your bank (should cost you under $10) if your Roman landlord will accept one (it will likely cost about 20 euros for him to deposit this into his account, so be prepared for that).
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I don't know how they can do this, as cash transactions over 1000 euros are illegal in Italy.
In any case, the only way to pay this would be in cash, and this cash payment requirement is one of the reasons I'm reluctant to rent apartments. You won't find a bank that would be willing to cash it for someone who didn't have an account at their bank.
I myself would recommend getting it from a bank at home and securing it very well on your person during transit, perhaps in a money pouch under your clothing. You'll surely get a poor exchange rate from your bank, and you'd better let them know immediately that you need such a large quantity of cash. However, most ATMs in Italy allow you to withdraw only €250 at a time; some allow you to make multiple withdrawals in this amount, and some limit you to one withdrawal. So you'd have to make 11 withdrawals, probably at different banks to get all this cash on arrival in Italy. I think the risk is greater, considering that someone may see you withdrawing large amounts of cash, and you'd probably have no opportunity to hide the money without being observed.
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I agree, bvlenci, it's got to be an illegal rental (not that they aren't common, but I wouldn't ever get involved in one).
Good point about the number of withdrawals and the risks of that.
Sounds like a rather bad deal all around, IMO.
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Thanks for the input - I had no idea about the cash limits. I am considering taking enough euros to cover our first two nights (Saturday/Sunday) and then going to our bank's rome branch on Monday for the rest. Its just a few blocks from the apartment and if the place is a dive, we can always head to a hotel...pay through the nose no doubt but it beats an italian jail cell!
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The 1000 euro limit is for Italian citizens only. Still since bank transfers are sop easy to do why not ask.
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Yikes, we did paypal for deposit and had the option of doing the balance that way but took cash to pay in Florence but wasn't near that amount. I have two accounts I can draw from and if your husband has one then you'd have at least two.
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We found in Venice last year that we could withdraw 500 euro in a single transaction from an ATM. So that means four or five withdrawals to pay the rent. Not so hard.
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Not all US banks will "up" your withdrawal maximum per day. Cap One would not; "for our own safety" We opened another account at Andrews Federal Credit Union [with all of it's other perks] and used both accounts to get needed cash for apartment.
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>>I am considering taking enough euros to cover our first two nights (Saturday/Sunday) and then going to our bank's rome branch on Monday for the rest.<<
My guess is if you don't have all the cash on arrival you won't get the keys.
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cmeyer, I hope you will report back after your trip to tell how things worked out for you. We will need to do something similar in France in June; 2500 euro cash for apartment and security deposit. We will not be as short on time to gather the cash as you but we will end our trip with the return of our security deposit.
Will you be receiving your security deposit returned to you in cash at the end of your stay like we will? Due to this we will have at least 1500 cash in euros when we usually come home with no more than 200 euros "seed money" for our next trip! We use ATM 's and don't like to carry so much cash much less bring so many euros home with us. Going on a spending spree with the euros is not an option for me, unfortunately . Deborah
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Deborah - our security deposit can be done in USD so that won't be a big issue. We used PayPal for the initial deposit which was fine. The weekend and banking hours just occured to me last night and I really don't want to carry around that many euros from the US to Rome. Running from ATM to ATM to withdraw money and paying those fees also makes me a bit crazy. And...if we can withdraw up to 500e, is that Per Day or Per Withdrawal? I will talk to our bank tomorrow but if its Per Day, we'd need up to 4 separate accounts. Next time, I will only consider places that take credit cards or revert to hotels. This has gotten to be a huge hassle.
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@bilboburgler - if we do a bank transfer, would it have to be done before we leave the US since the banks are closed on Saturday when we arrive...and if the place is unacceptable, would we then be stuck??
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Cmeyer Is it just you withdrawing or also a spouse/partner? Each person with an ATM card on the same account can each withdraw the max per day is our experience. The problem we have found is the ATM may have a limit that is less than our card so we have to go to multiple ATM's. We have an online Capital One card which is different and a much better ATM card than the brick and mortar Capital One bank ATM card that we also have. We are going to be making a lot of ATM runs also. At least you are in a large enough city to do this "dance". Imagine what it would be like in a small town. Good luck. Deborah
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If the Italian landlord is insisting on cash it is probably because he does not want to pay taxes on that income. If so, he will certainly will not want any sort of bank transfer that will leave a paper trail. It may be illegal for him, but what do you care? Many/most Italians routinely evade taxes as a matter of honor.
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For sure bank transfers need to be done based on bank timings and once paid cannot be with held. I guess its about trust and how much cash you like to carry about on your person.
The Italian Money Police are being driven hard at the moment so Italians are being a bit more careful. Would you want to rent a property from a criminal? Hardly gives the best image for what happens if you have any other problems with the rental. I'd back out if only cash was acceptable.
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Best option for Dollars to Euros for apartment payment"
Posted by: cmeyer54 on Dec 8, 13 at 2:30pm
The apartment firm has requested a payment in Euros Cash only of 2250e when we arrive and have inspected the place to our satisfaction. My question is this: we can exchange dollars to euros at our bank here before leaving but that is carrying a lot of cash around during transit.
Assuming that the apartment firm owns or controls the property I would do it their way. Bring over US$ in NEW crisp $100s and change them for euros at a bank in Italy. Heck, the apartment firm might even accept the US$. They are just going to drive up to Switzerland and deposit the cash anyway.
Europe is much more a cash society than plastic USA. My BIL near Milan runs a small business and regularly walks around with a wad of euros in his front pocket. It would literally choke a horse. Taxes, smatches. The only threat to him is the mafia trying to muscle in on his business.
I made a road trip from Germany to Turkey. Being not sure if my plastic would be any good in those lands I carried $2,000, half in US$ and half in €. I put the cash in small ZipLoc baggies and put it in the bottoms of my shoes. No problem. After you clear the TSA shoe inspection you could do that.
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I would try to negotiate a bank transfer, although that means that the payment is no longer invisible to the Italian fiscal authorities. Perhaps have them agree to a cash payment of 4 or 5 days and then an electronic transfer from bank to bank. Once the system is set up, it can be done from any computer and after you have seen the apartment. I transfer money to France using www.xe.com. Most of the methods suggested above involve higher costs, especially in the conversion rate.
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@Michael and Spaarne - yes, we'd love to do a bank transfer using quikpay or similar thru Chase. don't know if the landlord will accept that or not. the current offer is 1000e transfer in advance (before we've seen the place) and 1240e in cash when we arrive. we can't go to Chase when we arrive since it will be on a Saturday and they are not open. However, with quikpay, all we will need is internet connection. I'd do paypal as well!
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Getting your ATM daily limit raised can usually be done but as noted you will probably have to visit multiple ATMs as the bank whose ATM you will use has a daily limit on what THEY will allow you to withdraw regardless of what YOUR bank will allow you to withdraw daily.
Your basic question is where will you get the best exchange rate and the answer is at the ATM in Italy. The problem is the multiple ATM visits required. I have negotiated in the past with situations like this to pay over a period of days, not all on day one. Explaining why you need to do so may make it acceptable to the landlord. But you should find out BEFORE you leave home, not wait till you arrive and then ask to delay payment.
Otherwise, the best way is to take US cash as spaarne suggests and change it at a bank in Italy. Not the best security but not the highest risk in the world either.
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My experience in trying to exchange US currency in European banks (admittedly a number of years ago, now) has been very negative. Unless I had an account in that bank they would not give me the time of day, much less Euros. In particular, $100 bills came under intense scrutiny and suspicion; I assume because of counterfeit and illegal money movement considerations.
I second the suggestion that multiple ATM withdrawals is the way to go.
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If you don't want to do multiple ATM withdrawals, then take US$ cash and exchange it at a bureau de change at your arrival airport - though the exchange rate will bite you in the butt.
Most Italian banks will not handle foreign currency for visitors. In the old days, travelers checks or exchanging cash would work. But that is virtually impossible now.
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I think we'll just go to Chase later this week and have them do the exchange for us and take Euros from here. I'm also considering taking a cash advance against my amex when we arrive even tho we will get charged interest...we will get points!! ))
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cmeyer54 on Dec 9, 13 at 3:47pm
I'm also considering taking a cash advance against my amex
Amex had a client check cashing service at their offices throughout Europe at one time. I used it regularly, before ATM machines were introduced. Maybe that is still available. I have an Amex card but rarely use it in Europe and never have a need to visit their offices anymore.
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It's not true that the 1000-euro limit is only for Italian citizens. There are exceptions for foreigners, but, to be succinct, they apply to retail businesses. I can find the text of the Italian law, if anyone is interested.
More than half the apartment rentals in Rome (and most other cities) are estimated to be illegal. It's hard to get statistics, precisely because they're operating in the shadows. Many cities are cracking down on them, but the renter isn't the one who risks a jail term. I'm starting to hear of more apartment rentals that are beginning to require that the occupants provide a passport, which is one sign the rental is legal. The other evidence is that the renter gets a "fiscal receipt", which should have a tax stamp on it.
My main concern with illegal apartment rentals is that they usually don't meet even the minimum safety requirements of the "affittacamere". In other words, they have no fire exits, no smoke detectors, and no extinguishers. I've stayed in apartments in Italy that had glaring safety issues, such as electrical outlets that were hanging by the wires, and large windows, nearly at floor level, with absolutely no protection to prevent a child from falling out.
I've had the best results renting from a major internet rental agency, such as www.booking.com , which mostly lists hotel rooms and B&Bs, but also has a fairly decent list of apartments.
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While some ATMs will allow withdrawal of higher amounts, most ATMs have the 250-euro limit.
I find it offensive to say that most Italians evade taxes "as a matter of honor". Is there any honor in greed? Are you Italian? Some Italians evade taxes, for whatever excuse they can make up for it, and the other Italians are getting angrier and angrier about it.
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I had read so many glowing reviews about renting apartments and the benefits that went with them. After this experince, if there is a single, minor glitch in the place, I will post every blog, rant, etc and not rent a flat again! Its not great to be heading into a 'vacation' with trepidation and fear of what we'll see when we arrive. At least with the hotels we've used, there was a level of familiarlity. Yikes
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As I said, I often rent apartments, because when we travel as a family group, there are too many of us, and we like to share a common space in the evening. I've never had a horror story yet, but there is often something that gives me pause, and it does require a level of research that is much greater than getting a hotel room. One of my main gripes is that I seem to be the only one who is bothered by hair in shower or toothpaste in the sink, so I end up doing more housework than I even do at home, where we have a housekeeper. I like to come back to a hotel room at the end of the day to find the bed made and the bathroom cleaned.
Some people love renting apartments, saying it makes them feel as though they live in the place they're visiting. I've never really got my thrills from pretending to live in Paris; when I travel, I want to visit museums, walk in parks, or explore out-of-the-way neighborhoods; every half hour I spend shopping for paper towels takes me away from the reasons why I travel.
We're renting an apartment in London for a week very soon; I've never rented an apartment there before. Apartment rentals in London always require full payment in advance. I paid by bank tranfer, which means we don't need to carry cash, but it also means we have no leverage if we find the place to be not as advertised.
I think you've done the right thing by deciding to get the euros for the rental payment in the US. Almost no bank in Italy will change money for anyone except their own customers. You absolutely shouldn't bring dollars unless you have an agreement with the agent that this would be acceptable. Changing dollars would require the owner to use the services of a bank, which is something he may be trying to avoid, for the reasons mentioned above. Just be sure to carry the money in a secure pouch under your clothing.
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I apologize, Bvlenci, if I was insulting in implying there is honor in Italians evading taxes. My statement comes from limited conversations with those of your country who openly have bragged to me about how they manage to screw the tax man. They seemed to consider both the Government and especially the tax collectors as an evil force that should be scorned, and "Nobody who is smart pays taxes" seemed to be their justification.
I of course take your word that these folks are a vanishing minority in Italy, and that the vast majority of your countrymen cheerfully contribute every Euro cent they owe to the governmental coffers.
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I think the issue is not renting an apartment or not renting an apartment but who you rent from. There are more online sites all the time that take credit cards for rentals all over the world and especially in Europe. So the problem is not renting a place but renting a place from an owner that hasn't joined the party. Eventually they'll have to as no one will be willing to go to the bother you're describing. Maybe too late this time but go with an online agency next time, pay with your credit card and forget it.
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I think one of the problems is the large sum of money you need. I've rented apartments where I had to pay upon arrival (minus some advance deposit) but didn't have any trouble because I never rented a place that cost that much. I never needed more than about 800 euro.
I don't know if your plans are set, but one way I handle this is to arrive the day before, then just book in whatever cheap decent hotel is closest to the apt. I did that once out of necessity as the apt wasn't ready the day I wanted, but I actually liked it as it makes arrival easier. For one thing, if you arrive very early, you can check into a hotel and often can't check into an apt until afternoon. Then you have at least 2 days to get some money out of ATMs. So if you haven't made your flight reservations, you could consider that.
Also, I have two ATM cards and I'm only one person. I have two different bank accounts, one my checking and one a separate MM savings account. So then I could get maybe 500-700 with each card. I think my bank has a $1000 limit, actually, or about 700 euro. So you could certainly have at least two bank accounts. I opened a Cap One MM account just for that reason, to get another ATM card, and not have all my money in one bank.
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500 euro per transaction, not per day. We withdrew 2000 euro from a single ATM in 15 minutes. In Italy.
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Peter_S_Aus on Dec 9, 13 at 8:50pm
500 euro per transaction, not per day. We withdrew 2000 euro from a single ATM in 15 minutes. In Italy.
That's what you call quick draw. So much for protecting accounts against theft.
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Yes, I'm with Peter. I find most of the ATM's I've used have a E400 limit per transaction. But I've just done 3 transactions at the same machine.
cmeyer- I'm just wondering how you found this apartment. Because I agree that once you find an agency you trust, renting apartments is much easier. I've had great experiences with both RentalinRome and SleepInItaly. I would gladly rent from either agency again. And they have plenty of options.
I hope this won't sour your experience and I hope the apartment is as advertised. (An agency is a benefit in that if something is wrong with the unit- say no hot water-- they can move you to another unit usually.)
Buon viaggio! Don't let the cash thing spoil your vacation! Try to think of it as a slight annoyance- nothing more.
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I would suggest it is now time to take a step back and look at what has been written so far.
First, acknowledge that the reason people rent apartments is to spend less money. Sure it's convenient for a family, etc. but all of that is simply icing on the cake. People rent privately to spend less money.
That comes at a price of another kind however as you have found out cmeyer54. It's a lot easier to pick a hotel and make a reservation. It's also a lot easier to pay conveniently. You have CHOSEN to take the risk and accept the hassle of renting an apartment. You may re-think that next time.
You have also discovered that how much less you will spend is not as much as you thought it would be. Chances are that if you buy Euros at home it will cost you as much as 8% more than it would have if you used a good credit card to pay. Good meaning, one with no exchange loading.
Here is something else for you to discover if you plan to do much travelling in future. American Express is NOT a card a traveller would use for anything when travelling. They have one of the WORST exchange rates you can find. I never understand why anyone would have an Amex card these days. Credit and debit cards have long surpassed them in convenience (more accepted worldwide) and cost of using them.
Regarding the comments re a bank will not accept dollars, poppycock. While a small branch in a small village may act in an arbitrary manner because they are afraid your $100 bills are counterfit (the US currency is one of the easiest to counterfit still), a major branch in Rome is another story.
Do you people realize how banks make money? One way is exchanging cash. Yes, an amazing concept no doubt. Look in th window of a bank in Rome and you will SEE the exchange board showing the prices at which they will buy and sell foreign currency. Not just to someone with an account but to anyone with proper identification. ie. your passport.
I have no idea where this idea that a bank won't exchange foreign currency came from but it is nonsense. Just as it is nonsense you cannot change Euro into Dollars in a bank in the USA. Yes, a bank in Podunk, Iowa may refuse to exchange them but a major bank in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, etc. will happily exchange them, they do it every day for tourists. Rome is not in a third world country.
Carrying Euro in cash from the USA has the same risks as carrying dollars in cash. Exchanging dollars to Euro in the USA will cost more than exchanging them in Rome.
Bottom line, cmeyer54, the best way to handle money is with credit and debit cards. ANY other way costs you more and adds a hassle factor. At this point, I can understand why you would just through up your hands in defeat and say, 'screw it I'll buy Euros here, I don't care what it costs me.'
My advice to you for future travel is this. Get good credit and debit cards with no exchange loading. Do not book/reserve anything you cannot pay for with those cards.
Mmeperdu has it right. You can find places to rent that DO take credit cards either directly (on arrival) or through an online third party booking company. Not only will you get the best exchange rate but the further advantage of being able to claim through Visa/MC if things are not as they should be when you get there. Visa/MC provides 'free insurance' in effect on any purchase you make using your card.
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I have spent the last 25 years of my life more or less as a sojourner (temporary resident) in many countries. My 'legal' residence is in the Cayman Islands although I don't spend more than perhaps 6 weeks a year there. Sometimes I live on my boat (Hunter Passage 42), sometimes I take up temporary residence in a country for a while, a month, a few years.
The point being that I use credit/debit cards almost exclusively to handle my finances every day. Most of the time, the cards I am using are not from the country I am in. I have cards from Canada, the UK, Switzerland and the Caymans. I am not the average tourist who takes a trip now and then. Consequently, I have had to find out how best to handle money when travelling to a greater extent than the average person.
I have spent countless hours researching foreign exchange and all the ramifications it involves. How to move large amounts at the lowest cost (forex companies) and how to make the smallest purchases at the lowest cost(the RIGHT credit/debit cards).
On occassion, circumstances have required me to carry and exchange cash. Large amounts and small amounts. With large amounts I have walked into banks and negotiated an exchange rate. The rate shown in their window is the rate for the average tourist exchanging a few hundred dollars. Walk in with $20k and you can negotiate a better rate. I did that once for example, in the UK, when I needed to pay for the car in my profile picture in cash. I went to 3 different banks in Manchester, all a few doors apart and asked for their best offer. All 3 banks offered me better than the posted exchange.
On another occasion in a small town in the Alsace region of France, the ATM at the only bank was not working. I wanted to buy a rotisserie chicken at the farmer's market in the village. I walked into the bank (the only bank)and asked them to exchange a Canadian $20 bill. They had to get out big binders with pictures of all the foreign currency and compare the pictures to the $20 bill I handed them. They took a photocopy of my passport. After much consultation between 3 or 4 bank employees, they exchange my $20 for Euros. It was more hassle for them than for me.
Travel forums are full of people who have very limited experience in how to handle money when travelling. Some people do travel extensively and do have more experience but may still be using less than the best means of handling their money. They THINK they know but they do not. Foreign exchange is complex but it is not complicated.
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What is more scary is I used to own a gold coloured TR7 soft top that looks a lot like yours. Is yours a V6?
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While this is the first time and likely the last that I have or will try to rent an apartment, it is not our first time to Europe (upwards of 16 trips). This is our first trip, however, in several years with our now adult children. Suddenly a lovely hotel room became two lovely hotel rooms. that is what prompted the idea of an apartment. It would have more space as well as the option to eat in if necessary over the holidays. i did not take into consideration italian banking regulations, the fact that arriving on a saturday would mean banks are closed, we only use one bank and don't want to open additional accounts to have access to mutiple ATM's, etc. At this point, we'll head back to the Westin and enjoy the trip.
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Almost no one gets it right the first time. We get better at everything as we do it more. It would be a shame if you discarded future opportunities to stay in apartments because you didn't know everything about the process first time around. If you love hotels, fine. But if a variety of experiences appeals to you then try it again and use an agency, online or otherwise, that makes payment easy and that hurdle is behind you.
I use Airbnb in part because payment is as simple as it's possible to be, in dollars, no messing about with exchange or being charged a fee to have it converted to Euros by most credit card companies.
As an example here are their apartment offerings in Rome, use filters at the top to more easily locate what you're looking for:
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duceusetc: <<First, acknowledge that the reason people rent apartments is to spend less money. Sure it's convenient for a family, etc. but all of that is simply icing on the cake. People rent privately to spend less money.>>
Not true. Apartments offer more privacy and a chance to cook if you want to. And you do get more for your money. A villa in the countryside, another form of self-catering accommodation, would be far superior to a country hotel, especially for a group.
I've rented apartments in cities and country villas with a group. In each of the latter cases, we hired a cook to prepare one or more dinners.
But I always rent through a recommended agency and pay with a credit card.
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I have rented a place and I too have been asked to pay the rest in euros cash. However, I found out that I can also pay via PayPal for the balance but will need to add 5%. If you add up the withdrawal costs and conversion charges, you are better off paying via PayPal using a credit card. You at east will have the credit cards protection.
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Thank you for all the input, advice and ideas. We were a bit constrained on options since the trip was 'approved' in late September, its over the Christmas Holiday and this is Pope Francis' first Christmas. Rome was heavily booked last spring. We also needed at least a 2 bedroom place and the second bedroom needed twin beds. I was not going to ask adult sons to either share a bed or decide who got the futon on the living room. The agency says the landlord won't accept Paypal...only euros cash upon arrival. I'll email him again and if that doesn't change, the Westin it is!
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cmeyer, your agency sounds like a listing site for owners, not a real agency. If it was a real agency, you would pay the agency rather than the owner. If it's only a listing site, they have no knowledge of the rental unit; they only exist for the convenience of the owner.
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Bilboburgler, the car has the original 2.0 litre engine. It is left hand drive, originally bought new in Texas in 1980. I am the third owner and really only the second driver. The second owner bought it, restored it and sold it to me, at a LOSS.
Cmeyer, since you are now literally only days away, I agree 'Westin it is' for this trip. It is true however as you are being advised, not all third party sites are the same. For example, 'Ownersdirect' clearly indicates in their name that you will be dealing directly with the owner for payment but others require you to pay the third party who then pay the owner.
Like anything, renting a privately owned apartment has pros and cons. How you pay is only one thing to consider. Whether it is a legal rental is another. For example, in Hawaii it is a big issue with illegal condo rentals found everywhere. You can arrive and find the neighbours do not appreciate a tourist renting next door for a week or two and clearly showing you their displeasure.
So for future reference, I would suggest that if you are going to consider it you do your due diligence and research all there is to know about the subject. Read here for example: http://www.independenttraveler.com/travel-tips/travelers-ed/airbnb-and-beyond-tips-for-safe-legal-vacation-rentals
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There are, in fact, some "agencies" where you pay the owner. I"ve rented from a couple and they are not the same as VRBO, etc., which is just a website for ads. Because many agencies (most probably) don't really own the apartments, someone else does. There are variations on how much an agency does and who you deal with (them or owner), but two places I've paid the owner directly are Habitat apts in Barcelona and Parisbestlodge in Paris. I think most people consider those agencies. And both of them would take the deposit by credit card, but not the final payment (actually, Habitat would, if pressed, but you have to make special arrangements).
But you can find other systems, of course, and just deal with them -- places that take credit cards or Paypal, etc.
I don't actually consider it a big deal to have two bank accounts, as I specifically did that in order to have a MM acct other than in my main bank, as my main bank didn't give the best interest rates on those. A MM acct isn't really high maintenance, it's just a savings acct with an ATM card, which I only use on vacations. One reason I did that was to avoid having funds over the limits for FDIC insurance in one institution, also, as I had a large CD along with my checking acct in my main bank. I think they've raised the limits now, but it used to be a max of 100K in one bank or something like that. It wasn't that high if you had some savings.
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Ventersdorp - Evidence given by the two people accused of killing rightwing leader Eugene Terre'Blanche was disputed in the High Court sitting in Ventersdorp on Tuesday.This led to a trial within a trial. Norman Arendse, the lawyer for a teenager accused of the murder, asked for admissions, confessions and the pointing out of crime scenes by the two accused to be dealt with together."The youth's Constitutional rights and rights under the Children's Act were systematically violated," he said.Lawyers for the boy and the other accused, Chris Mahlangu, said they would seek for the confessions and pointing out not to be submitted in the trial.The two are accused of beating and hacking the former AWB leader to death in his farmhouse in North West in April 2010. Both have pleaded not guilty to murder, housebreaking, and robbery with aggravating circumstances. Mahlangu claims he acted in self defence. The teenager has denied involvement in the crime.
Mahlangu claims he acted in self defence.
The teenager has denied involvement in the crime.
So which one was it, you either defended yourself or you where not involved, if you were not involved then you were not there.
It requires logic - obviously neither of the murderers were born with it.
I think Terreblanche's rights were violated much more forcefully.
Chris Mahlangu and the teenager are two different people.
@spookhuis what I like about your comment is that it contains answers, the kid was not involved and Mr Mahlangu was fed up of being sodomized and been made to eat dog food. Ohh correction rotten dog food
@makatika: That's what scummy bacteria eat... Dog Food or Rotten Dog Food... all the same...! ;)
Mahlangu defended himself whilst being sodomised, with the deceased being found lying on his back on a bed, and the semen not on Mahlangu's backside and in his colon. Was he medicaly examined for semen? First time that I hear of somebody being sodomised with such dangerous weapons in his hands and a youth standing nearby, probably observing the spectacle. Weird crap story.
Sound like it was written in Hollywood.
ja, and not sure how many folks out there are just biting their nails waiting to sodomise would-be housebreakers, and as you say, armed and not working alone.
@Willie you probably have an empty head if this is becoming so difficult for you to understand
Aarendse knows their defence is shot and now is trying to use the "violation of childrens act" cr@p. There are so many holes in both their defences. Bottom line is if he was repeatedly sodomised,received a pathetic salary and wasnt chained to the building-why did he just not leave?????
He did not leave because his whole statement is a pack of lies. How any man can even think of believing it goes beyond apprehension, and then he even has a lawer to defend him.
Do I not remember a phone call confessing this crime? Now they plead not guilty. Which is it?
Because not they but he acted in self-defense
Someone did the murder..they will turn this political...and try and get off the murder charges using this strategy.I was never a AWB supporter but ET deserves too have justice done..these criminals must pay for their crime..I just hope the judge can disconnect himself from judging it as .."This is ET we dealing with". and make a fair decision.How can an elderly man fight of two youths..even as they claim sexual abuse..how could ET as an old man handle both these boy's...please lies. In their revenge they belittled him by performing the act on ET. What a horrible way to die.
He had nothing positive to contribute to this country. He was negative and the only time he was of any real worth was when he made us laugh with his falling of a horse stunts. I am not condoning murder but in this case i will make an exception.
Where I do agree that the man was an embarrassment to our country's history, I do not agree with the statement of letting this crime slide. If our justice system seeks to condone crimes done by individuals due to 'special circumstances' then we may as well not have a judicial system at all...anybody could get off of a crime, especially black on white crime or vice versa looking at the stats (not a racist comment, just stating the facts as per this case and others). A democratic country should uphold the constitution which holds people accountable for crimes done against others, these men (children or not) MUST face punishment otherwise we'll be looking at an increase in criminal stats!
This man oppressed, hurt and got away with hurting a lot of people. He tried by all means to take our country backwards and he was of the strong belief that certain races are more superior to others. I believe he was the Adolf Hitler of our time and i honestly have no sympathy for people like that. This is my personal opinion. We r a very young democracy and the likes of ET have no place in it. I honestly do not understand how a person can judge me or any other person simply because of the couler of their skin, to me that's the biggest crime one can commit.
You could be describing Malema!
Shirley, i have never supported Malema or any of his views. ET hated all black people and that included me. Given the chance i don think he would have thought twice before putting a bullet in my head or dragging me behind his bakkie for miles and miles. That's why i don feel for him.
So when Malema sings "shoot the boer" thats acceptable? Two wrongs dont make a right. He was a racist,the same as MANY public figures alive and well today-that does not give me or anyone else the right to murder him/her.
Your comments are spot on.
"To judge anyone on the colour of their skin, is the biggest crime,
one can commit!!!!!!"
NOTHING is more true!!!!!
What have YOU contributed to this country. With a brain ? like that I do not think much
how do you break into a house, steal the contents, murder the occupant, and somehow find yourself 'defending' yourself and also 'innocent'. and shame, were the rights of the criminals violated? i suppose murdering someone doesn't count as violating someone's rights. interesting psychology.
We do not have to forget that this nauinces of a man was afraid by police or they were probably supporting his action. So we must be happy one terrorist is no more
This just makes me sick.I don't consider myself a racist,but wow their are a lot of u that need to get over it.Seeing by ure names,yes i said it!!!! I see YOU ATRE THE RACISTS.This Human being,father,husband,brother,was BRUTALLY murdered.And ure justifying it with ure,'OH,HE WAS A TERRIBLE WHITE MAN'.Please,grow up.A terrible crime has been committed against this man.I don't care how old they are....u're capable of doing something so horrific to someone,u ureself do not have the right to plead Not-guilty.Hey.....i don't like Juju....but i'm not gonna go out and do to him what was done to ET.This is Supossed to be The New South Africa for ALL of us.So far,i don't see that happening...........xoxo
@Abigail Bradly Hiscock -Where we you all this time when your uncle was terrorizing the black community.
@Stephan I was there fighting the apartheid
If you or I commited a crime, we would have to pay a lawyer to defend us(if we could afford one). As the accused seem to be poor farm workers...how come they can afford these lawyers... the countries best at that? Please don't tell me it's our tax payers money paying to free these scumbags.
@Makatika.......oh please,Fighting apartheid....this country will never be able to survive with the attitude of the youth these days.Now it's apartheid in reverse.People are getting jobs these days,solely with the colour of their skin.Nothing else.But we are off the subject now...........NO ONE DESERVES TO BE BRUTALLY MURDERED,THE WAY ET WAS MURDERED.NO MATTER WHO OR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE!!!!!AND NOW THEY ARE PLEADING NOT-GUILTY.PATHETIC!!!!!


text:
Not only is Donna Aldea, the Queens district attorney's counsel for special litigation especially competent and therefore desirable – Barket, Marion, Epstein & Kearon LLP were thrilled to have her join their team recently – but she is especially conscientious and thorough: despite acquiring new work, she will continue to clean up and follow through on her former cases, pro bono. Therefore, her five years working as Special Litigation and 15 years as Assistant District Attorney didn't come to an abrupt end when she made her move to Barket, but will slowly curtail as she finishes her business.
Click here to read the full article.


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* Private yard
* Ample off street parking
* Fantastic location ~ just minutes to Loftus or Sutherland station and shops!!!
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The internet is a glorious thing. It allowed us to find gems like Justin Bieber, Grumpy Cat and this hilariously shocked baby. It also provides us with a gateway into the biggest shopping centre of all, where there are hundreds of thousands of brands all vying for your attention.
This is great from a consumer perspective, but if you're on the other side of things, it makes it difficult for your brand to stand out. This is where having a clear digital marketing strategy is important. Whether you're an established brand or just finding your feet, a clear plan is essential to help you cut through a heavily saturated market.
And that's where we come in (or Jay Wright from Search Insights).
Jay is essentially an expert in the field, working alongside brands to optimise their marketing strategy and improve brand awareness. And with clients like Camilla, Aje and Bailey Nelson, we'll pretty much take his word as gospel.
We asked Jay for some handy pointers, to help you nail your digital marketing strategy.
First thing first, you need to conduct an e-Commerce Performance Review
It makes sense. Before you can improve your marketing strategy, you need to know how it's performing right now.
Jay suggests taking a broad an deep approach to review:
"Google Analytics, your CMS, Email and Social Media and SEM platforms are just scratching the surface. Correlating and understanding the data that's generated across all of your platforms to attribute growth is essential. Chances are, one or a couple of channels have been driving your growth, and if true – working out how to invest more into these channels whilst growing other opportunities will frame the development of your strategy."
If you find a channel or strategy that's working (and hopefully you do), it's then important to scale up.
"I met a guy who spent $434,256 on Facebook ads in one month," says Jay.
"The return was four times this, and this is the way to make real money online. Find profitable channels through testing and scale."
Keep an eye on your competitors
It pays to check out the competition. See what other businesses are doing and how they are reaching their milestones.
"As a rule our agency follows all of our clients competitors through our daily workings, and active discussion through our networks. This works hand in hand with the innovation workshops we drive in house to stay at the forefront of marketing ideas," says Jay.
And it doesn't have to be through stalking their platforms. Instead, here's a novel idea: talk! Engage your network and place yourself among the people you know are innovating and succeeding.
All this will be useful in developing comparative case studies, to help you see what else you can be doing, but also to provide you with new ideas and references.
"There is so much data out there," explains Jay. "But don't take anything as gospel and chat to as many people as possible."
Mind the gap and create a growth plan
One of the easiest ways to move forward is by cutting back on the areas that clearly aren't working. It's about closing the gaps, so you have room to move in other areas.
You should also be creating a growth plan. We know this can be a daunting process – it's hard to know where to focus your energies, or even where to start. So we asked Jay for a few essentials we should consider when putting together a growth plan. He came back with the below key pearls of info:
- Specific targets are not negotiable, they are essential
- Understand your customer: where, how and why they shop with you
- Focus on your existing customer, not new customers. They know you, and are looking for ways to engage with you. Your existing customers will refer your new customers
- Balance long term investments like SEO with short term return-based paid channels, to ensure your medium and long term goals
"No one strategy fits all, which is why you really need to give careful consideration to your specific circumstances," says Jay.
"Don't go in with a vague idea of growing traffic or getting 'better sales'. Have a clear goal to increase e-commerce revenue by 86% in nine months."
It's about here we asked Jay to slow down. Because while we'd like an 86 per cent increase in revenue over nine months, world peace and a bottomless jar of Nutella also sounds pretty good. To us, it all sounds very much like wishful thinking, right?
Of course, Jay had an answer.
"Growth potential in e-commerce revenue is usually quick and highly scaleable. The key to growth is being able to manage and scale in-house. Inventory, shipping and human resourcing are the backbone to any growth plan. Implementation of a digital strategy can only leverage the maximum internal capacities of a business," he said.
But it doesn't stop there. Jay also advises re-investing your returns.
"Don't rest on any initial success – if you've found a formula which works, scale it 'til it doesn't work.
"Through strategic investment in successful channels we've doubled revenue for e-commerce businesses in six months, with time to spare."
Prepare an execution plan
Once you know where you want to grow, you need to plan out how you're going to grow. Can you do everything internally or will you have to source help in specific areas?
Taking the time to understand your strengths, and then engaging external help to support these, is essential.
"One of the most intense, but valuable processes we go through in developing a strategy is a discovery session which maps out where exactly in-house resourcing excels, where it struggles and where the business need support," says Jay.
He also suggests carving out time to execute your systems and get into a good routine.
"Have daily relentless discipline to test everything and improve one per cent per day. In everything: a better Facebook ad creative, a better title tag or piece of content. If you test and have daily improvements, they add up to massive impact over time and can be the difference between success and failure online."
Tracking and reporting
It's important to keep a close eye on return when you're marketing digitally.
As Jay says: "Digital is transparent. I can tell you down to the cent the impact that a digital campaign will have."
So how often should you be reporting?
Finding the balance is a difficult task.
Too much and the focus can turn too heavily on reporting, rather than ensuring the success of a campaign. For example, many agencies that are built around reporting, invest significant resources in ensuring transparency of their work, rather than the success of a campaign.
Jay suggests medium to long term strategies that allow for reporting within a framework for growth. Reporting here becomes an update on progress, rather than a strict win/loss scenario.
"The most successful campaigns are the ones that play out over the course of years, where we may have a focus on growing email and social databases for easy wins one year."
What is key here is a focus on ROI as a whole, rather than treating individual marketing campaigns as silos.
"We've seen companies turn off social campaigns that weren't achieving an ROI, and immediately see sales half across the board, including their bricks and mortar stores – the key here is attribution.
So there you have it. You'll be ruling the web in no time. Now go get to work.
Illustration by Twylamae.


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CEDIA and CEA Announce Industry Coalition at CEDIA Expo 2003
New Industry Membership Will Offer Premier Benefits
Indianapolis, Ind., September 5, 2003 - The Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association (CEDIA) and the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) today announced they have agreed to form a coalition and create a joint Industry Membership that will maximize member benefits at each association.
The new CEDIA -CEA Industry Coalition enhances the strategic relationship that already exists between the two associations. CEDIA and CEA recognize the critical role that each association plays in the custom installation sector of the consumer electronics industry and the importance of each of their shows. By presenting a unified front, CEA and CEDIA can move forward together to grow the custom installation sector.
"Clearly there is strength in numbers," said CEA president and CEO Gary Shapiro. "Both associations present a powerful voice on behalf of the industry, but by forming a unified front through this new coalition and industry membership option, we can move forward together to grow this industry sector and provide a defined career path for the custom installer or integrator focusing on training and certification. Additionally, our legislative efforts will be strengthened through cooperation and a unified voice in Washington and statehouses."
With the new joint membership category created under the coalition, installer members of CEDIA and CEA TechHome can now add value to their membership in either association by choosing Industry Membership for an additional $100 above their current membership dues. The new monies collected by each association will be reserved for special projects to be undertaken jointly by the CEDIA -CEA Industry Coalition to benefit the industry, such as market research studies to measure the size of the custom installation industry and training programs.
"CEDIA has undertaken an aggressive initiative to educate and train industry professionals and has been a preeminent voice for the professional development of this industry," said Jeff Hoover, CEDIA president. "This partnership allows us to share our expertise with additional professionals."
Working together, CEDIA and CEA will be able to add significant membership value at minimal cost. Industry Members from CEDIA will benefit from access to all CEA market research conducted for the home automation, home networking and distributed audio industries. In turn, Industry Members from CEA's TechHome Division would benefit from CEDIA member discounts on CEDIA training and certification and access to the CEDIA legislative web site. The Industry Membership program will officially begin fourth -quarter 2003 as part of each association's 2004 membership renewal process.
"CEA's TechHome Division members and CEDIA's members have many common goals and concerns," said Duane Paulson, GE Interlogix's Vice President of Strategic Marketing and CEA TechHome Division Chair. "Both organizations are leveraging each other's strengths for the betterment of the residential integration marketplace."
"The benefits of this joint industry membership program between CEDIA and CEA transcend association general membership," said Kathy Gornik, Chairman, CEA Executive Board. "This historic coalition formed by a CEDIA -CEA strategic partnership is especially important not only to each association as a whole, but also to the entire custom electronics industry."
About CEDIA:
CEDIA is a global trade association of companies that specialize in designing and installing electronic systems for the home. The association was founded in September 1989 and has approximately 2,500 member companies worldwide. CEDIA members are established and insured businesses with bona fide qualifications and experience in this specialized field. CEDIA is a not -for -profit organization based in Indianapolis, Ind. For more information on CEDIA, visit the association's web site at www.cedia.org or call 1 -800 -669 -5329.
About CEA:
The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) is the preeminent trade association promoting growth in the consumer technology industry through technology policy, events, research, promotion and the fostering of business and strategic relationships. CEA represents more than 1,000 corporate members involved in the design, development, manufacturing, distribution and integration of audio, video, mobile electronics, wireless and landline communications, information technology, home networking, multimedia and accessory products, as well as related services that are sold through consumer channels. Combined, CEA's members account for more than $85 billion in annual sales. CEA's resources are available online at www.CE.org, the definitive source for information about the consumer electronics industry.
CEA also sponsors and manages the International CES - Defining Tomorrow's Technology. All profits from CES are reinvested into industry services, including technical training and education, industry promotion, engineering standards development, market research and legislative advocacy.
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Navarro set for Foals move
By Adam Marshall
Last Updated: 01/01/70 1:00am
Bundesliga club Borussia Monchengladbach are reportedly closing in on the signature of Barcelona defender Fernando Navarro.
Reports from the Spanish press claim that representatives of the five-time Bundesliga champions have watched Navarro on three separate occasions and have spoken to both the player and representatives of the Catalan club.
The Foals are keen to conclude a loan deal for Navarro, but face stiff competition from Liga side Zaragoza.
Navarro will consider himself unfortunate to be surplus to requirements at Camp Nou after beginning last season as a first team regular.
However, an unfortunate cruciate ligament injury curtailed the defender's season and seemingly his immediate future with Barca.
Navarro is currently playing for Barcelona's reserve team in the Spanish Third Division.


text: I'm going to sell my 2010 Scag Pro V 52" if anyone is interested. It is equipped with the hurricane mulching system and rss Scag sulky. It is in near perfect shape with less than 75 hours on the machine. I just don't need it anymore and it has been sitting in my shop for 3-4 months collecting dust. I did get it out the other day and cleaned the deck, sharpened the blades and washed off all the dust. I'm wanting $4500 for it which is a steal of a deal for a basically new machine. If you want to know anything just send me a pm and I will send my cell number and we can talk. Posted via Mobile Device


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I Am Dale Earnhardt Trailer (2015)
"A rare peek into the life of late racing legend Dale Earnhardt told from the perspective of those who knew him best." 02 March 2015 59 mins
"I Am Dale Earnhardt" digs deep beyond the legend to reveal the complex figure at the core of "The Intimidator." He was an idol to millions, but a villain to others; a working man's hero, but also a darling of Madison Avenue; a husband, father and friend, but also a solitary man who few really knew. His tragic death on the final lap of the 2001 Daytona 500 sent shock waves through the nation and immortalized him as one of the greatest stars NASCAR has ever known.
Watch the official I Am Dale Earnhardt 2015 trailer in HD below or find more I Am Dale Earnhardt videos on Vidimovie.


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Viktor Build Guide by CaptainJew
Not Updated For Current Season
This guide has not yet been updated for the current season. Please keep this in mind while reading. You can see the most recently updated guides on the browse guides page.
Thank You!
Your votes and comments encourage our guide authors to continue
creating helpful guides for the League of Legends community.
Pro Viktor Guide
Viktor Build
Starting Items
Augments (Situational)
Against AP Situational Items
Against AD Situational Items
Core Damage Situational Items
Sample Build That I Use A Lot
Ability Sequence
Not Updated For Current Season
The masteries shown here are not yet updated for the current season, the guide author needs to set up the new masteries. As such, they will be different than the masteries you see in-game.
Quick Notes
Just the quick version of the build, for those of you who don't want to read the guide and just want the fast facts:
Early Game
Early game you want to use your E+Q to your utmost advantage- the extra range on your E makes it SUPER effective.
If they get in too close and try to attack you, launch your Q (i usually have mine quick casted, so i can just do a quick tap of the Q) at them to poke them, and it will also protect you from incoming pokes.
Use your E to poke back at a relatively safe distance.
If you can get their health low enough, i go so far as to even turret dive in order to get a kill. Make sure to have your pots (health potions) on reserve so if need be, you can heal yourself after. For a quick heal, use the heal, which is broken at the moment.
Early game Viktor runs out of mana faster than any champ i know. Ask your jungler to help you get blue buff, or if you get an early kill, go back and recharge there. I sometimes use mana pots after level 4.
Also, if you can use you'r W to trap the person, you can spam your E+Q combo's and if you are at the right level, use your ultimate, to kill them.
Early Game Build
I almost always start with a Dorans Ring, two pots and a trinket.
After that, i almost always rush Archangel's Staff (which transforms into Seraph's Embrace) maybe pausing to buy boots.
Then proceed to work on your Sorcerers Shoes and Rabadons Deathcap.
Mid Game
Things are starting to heat up. This is when the team fighting is beginning, and every champ is exploring each other, like a little game of cat and mouse.
You poke, they run, they poke, you run, you all poke, giant team fight, people die, and the first few team fights generally decide who will win the game.
Your Mid Game build as well as what Augment you chose for your Hex Core will greatly affect the outcome of those team fights.
Mid Game Build / Augments
Your Augments are the main focus of your Mid Game build, as they decide what kind of Viktor you will be playing.
Augment: Death upgrades your Death Ray, and causing you to do more damage, putting you more in the AP Carry mode.
Augment: Gravity upgrades your Gravity Field, gives you more mana, mana regen and cooldown times, and increases the range of your Gravity Field. Gravity isn't defined into a category, but i would have to say that if you are mainly assisting kills, its a great AP Support/Carry Augment to have. It is also very good for escapes and defending.
Augment: Power upgrades your Power Transfer, increasing your Health, Health regen, and giving you a 30% movement speed boost VERY useful for escapes, and mainly used when you need to go on ALL OUT DEFENCE.
Chose your Augment VERY VERY wisely, as once you upgrade, you can't change it.
TIP: If you can't decide on what to upgrade too, because you aren't sure on whether you are going to defend or attack, Augment: Gravity is your best bet. Paired with the Seraph's Embrace, you get a little more AP to go along with the mana you get from the upgrade, and the extra cast range you get on Gravity Field is HUGE.
End/Late Game
At this point you should have a bunch of items, 5-6 or be in the process of finishing them up. the team fights should be progressing smoother, either very unbalanced or decidedly even.
If you build a Void Staff as your 5th or 6th item, you can usually catch the enemy team unawares, and the damage cutting through their MR (Magic Resist) can usually take them out fairly quickly. Pair the item with some quick ability spamming and a stun from your W, and you have a kill or two already.
Back off and come back for more later :).
End/Late Game Build
Item 5 - Zhonya's Hourglass
Provides you with some more AP, and a good shielding device to stop Ult's. Also gives you decent armour, super good against AD Champs.
Item 5 - Liandry's Torment
MORE MAGIC PENETRATION! Get under their MR and destroy them! add it together with the slow burning of Augment Death AND Liandry's passive, and you almost certainly have a kill. Paired with your boots and a Void staff, and the damage can be higher than the sky.
Item 5 - Abyssal Scepter
Gives you MR against a strong AP team, AND knocks off some of their MR when they get near you. throw it together with your existing Magic Penn, and a void staff, and you can do some serious damage.
Though this Item is situational, i HIGHLY recommend it. It's a LOT more useful on champs with high armour, but honestly, its good on just about anyone. USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE.
GL Summoners, and HF.
Team Work
As i always say, Team work makes the dream work.
And in this game, the dream is to win all day, all the time.
As a high powered AP champ, it is your job to put the team on your back- that is- carry, and get some high damage in. so you have some options on how you want to interact with your fellow champions. do you want to be the one to snipe all the precision damage and take the majority of the kills? or do you want to focus more on AoE (Area of Effect) type of damage, and splash large amount of damage onto many enemies, and allow your friends to go in for the kill?
In the end it's up to you, and Viktor can do both. his E makes for some fair damage dealing, allowing him to poke multiple enemies, and his Q goes after just one champion, making it a fairly good precision tool.
Try to work with your team mates to create a good environment. just because you don't get as many kills as the next guy doesn't mean your bad. just means your being really supportive. And maybe thats what your team needs to win. But maybe the also need someone to initiate with large damage, and then they can finish it. and then maybe they need someone to finish a fight they initiate. Try to be super tolerant of your team and what they need and be considerate towards them, and i guarantee you will win.
This goes for any champ, but with Viktor you have to be really careful, because though you can spam, often cooldown times can be a bit too long for the fight.
Unique Skills
Extended Reach
Viktor's E has one of the longest ranges in the game. If you get Augment: Gravity, his W's range get's even larger, allowing him to poke and attack from VERY far away. it makes Viktor especially dangerous to everyone and anyone.
High damage Early Game
Vik' does a lot of damage early game, he's good from about level 3 onward, and he can survive most ganks, even with his limited health. Watch out if you try to gank him though, because He can hit you with his Q and make all your efforts futile. especially if he follows up with an E.


text:
previously in space… scroll down to see specific events and shows in space or take a scroll through some of our favourite images here:
26th & 27 september – SOLD OUT –
dr legumes secret supper club
limited spaces – bookings only via email@example.com
28th september – one day exhibition and evening party
i came from the night and to the night i shall return by ughetta dallimonti
30th september
silent disco – dj battle between dolly doo wop & out of town dj's
tickets will be available in space and bounce vintage
3rd to 15th october
animality by karen piddington
13th to 24th september
colours edge by heather boxall
heather boxall works as a painter and printmaker. colour is central to her practice and it is how colour operates at many different levels that interests her. heather's paintings draw on references from the natural world, texts, poems, places and events. she works with a limited palette or in monochrome and builds up layers of colour allowing ambiguities and subtle colour shifts to occur.
'colours edge' brings together heather's work that explores how colours and edges have a constant tension and offer shifting perceptions. The subject matter that inspired this collection, varies from observations of bird plumage to the descriptive language on conrad's 'heart of darkness', or a 'sense of place' such as the coastal landscape of kent.
heather was born in gravesend, kent and brought up in dover, she now lives and works in hebden bridge, west yorkshire. this is her first exhibition in the region.
1st – 10th september
melancholaoke by sadie hennessey
26-28th august
launch night featuriung dj susan's leg policy and a live graffiti jam featuring 5 invited artists in payers park and over 20 others repainting the hoarding to the new skatepark at the top of tontine street – set to become an annual event, this year was curated by folkestone born aups – we plan to invite a different curator each year – watch this space!
secret supper clubs/ pop up restaurant
we've hosted several supper clubs for dr legumes and seafood streetfood specialists holy crab – here's a few images – sign up to our newsletter to hear about the next one:
leah thorn is a a spoken word poet in her late 60s. 'older women rock!' is a project of poetry, retro clothes, performance and film that grew out of her experience of ageing as a woman and from conversations with other older women.
leah is collaborating with some fantastic older women artists – sculptor nicholette goff, knitting artist deborah nash, fashion stylist and fashion lecturer claire angel, textile artist trish bishop and members of the profanity embroidery group – who are embroidering, burning, printing, cutting, beading, engraving and staining her poetry onto retro clothes and accessories, together creating a pop-up political art space in which to raise awareness and explore issues facing women in their late 50's and 60's.
15th december 2016 – 20th january 2017
photography by carl warren
28th november – 11th december 2016
embellished – bijou bagels and cock couture
a meticulously executed show by cristian lanfranchi
4th to 9th October 2016
Space was one of 6 Folkestone gallery venues used for "D R A W N" from local collective ]Performance Space[
Keijaun Thomas
Keijaun Thomas ( New York City/ USA) creates live performance and multimedia installations that oscillate between movement and materials that function as tools, objects and structures, as well as a visual language that can be read, observed, and repeated within spatial, temporal, and sensorial environments.
26 August – 11 September 2016 – mad bad lines;the douglas sisters at space gallery
"dalziel (pronounced dl) and lizzy douglas are hons and rebels, daughters of deal's first family and posher than the queen. they are respectively, the owners of the black douglas, deal's bohemian cafe and the black pig, a fine butcher. they are also artists and this show brings their work together for the first time, contrasting their unique and exhuberant styles.
their great, great uncle was lord alfred douglas, known as 'bosie', famously close friend of oscar wilde. the family history is colourful, referred to by oscar wilde as a 'mad,bad line'" Peter Cocks August 2016
August 2016 – Sam Capell:
Samuel is a contemporary pop artist, working in Folkestone.
Samuel focuses on the destruction and manipulation of food, and why our love of fat, sugary fast food dominates our diets. He ultimately points at fast food companies and large organisations as being huge contributors towards our bad choices. Profit seems to take precedent over quality and nutrition. Samuel also explores comparisons in the industry and makes work to champion those food manufacturers who take their practice seriously and passionately.
July 2016 – Tommy Gurr & Richard Collett:
24th june – 7th july – Marks Remarked, Remarked Marks. Drawings and paintings by David Lay.
Two very different aspects of the artist's work usually exhibited separately shown here together for the first time.
Paintings in Acrylic. Marks initially made by others for disparate reasons, Lifted out of context, re-examined and remarked.
Sea and landscapes.
Monochrome drawings. Charcoal and chalk on paper. Marks made to explore the textures of sea and landscape.
About the artist.
David was for rather too long, a designer and scenic artist in theatre running the gamut from seaside rep to the National theatre and back again. He began showing his own work about ten years ago. He has exhibited widely both in London and Kent. Since moving to Folkestone he has shown at The Chimera, The Johnny Cotter Gallery and, Frank Hirshfield's Galerie d'Art.
David is a director and co- founder with Maryanne Traylen of Pavement Pounders Community Interest Company.
the art of living
10th – 23rd june
in association with earlscliffe college
featuring work from some of folkestone's most talented artists:
john sims
catherine robinson
wayne reeves
gary smith lyons
jeanette cook
charlotte harris
dee taylor
kate emans
mike tedder
richard collett
curated by spacewoman and sharon binnie
Rhyme or Reason – Richard Collett – 27th March to 7th April – Wednesday to Sunday, 10am to 4pm
since graduating in 1992 from art school in falmouth,
richard has worked and exhibited in both london and kent.
his images are predominantly figurative or representational.
Clare Smith – 14th – 25th November – in the making
Clare has a BA Hons in Fine Art and an MA in Fine Art for which she studied at Central St., Martin's – she currently works as a visual artist for Dover Arts Development.
"time spent in the studio is slow time: I draw as a way of slowing down; the act of drawing is a curb on the urge to "do something" and repetition and process take away the anxiety of not knowing what to draw. the formal ready-made grid restricts the 'gestural' by demanding slow, deliberate marks, though my hand wobbles and the mark cannot be fully controlled. despite the impersonality implicit in serial work, the personal cannot help but make its mark – a kind of insistence – "the self rushing up to the surface"."
Clare started out as a linguist and graduated from Cambridge University with a first-class degree in Oriental Studies in 1982. After living and working in Luxembourg for 15 years, where she taught English and later translated German and French documents into English for a number of financial institutions, she returned to the UK to study art and realise a long-held ambition of making a life in the arts.
Intimacy – Roy Trollope – October 24th to November 11th
Space Gallery Folkestone are pleased to be hosting a show by Roy Trollope – 'Intimacy' brings together an exquisite collection of drawings and paintings by Roy Trollope. The artist draws on a vivid creative imagination to visualise an emotional journey which moves from a detached objective SPACE to a more intimate subjective SPACE.
'Scarlet Woman', the character we see here depicted on an analyst's couch, is the main protagonist in the earliest set of drawings made in 1989. She and the white female figure in a later series seem to represent a sexual presence held at arm's length.
Then comes 'Dreams' where flowers and vase lie smashed on the ground perhaps in an effort to capture a sense of self-betrayal. Has the central character allowed himself to be propelled again into another sexual encounter where intimacy beckons?
In other images water evokes the weight of emotional challenge and also becomes a space where lovers play.
The artist revisits the story in 2004 when finally lovers come together in a series of beautiful erotic paintings called 'Embrace' where the willingness to embrace intimacy is finally revealed.
Sisa Arts – October 3rd – 21st 2012
"ingrid's variety show"
5th – 21st september
"ingrid honneth started as costume and set-designer in the theatre (frankfurt, berlin, vienna, amsterdam, hamburg).
she started her career as an independent artist in 1988
by constructing sculptures out of the waste of our consumer civilisation
that emphasized the suffering from convention in an neoexpressionistic way.
in 2000 she turned the focus of her research from the subjective to the objective, reflecting everyday objects like safety-pins or matches as allegories for the human condition in our time."
Private View 7th September 2012
Vanessa Dakinsky
Born in 1985 – lives in Toulouse, France
"Through painting lens, I explore undefined spaces, mixing realistic elements with dreamy ones.
My work comes from combinations, like an echo between anecdotes of everyday life, my obsessive taste for pictures and a more general curiosity for contemporary mythologies and life. Each painting is a living place for contradictory elements. I avoid to simplify or reduce and prefer to open the enigma, their shady scenes, reverberations.
You can find my influences as well in the "classic" painting as in more spontaneous expressions (low brow, etc). "
Vanessa Dakinsky
After a degree in fine arts and some wanderings, Vanessa Dakinsky asserts herself in a more self-taught art practice : strange pictorial constructions, focusing on the intimate perception, extravagance and phantasmagoria.
On the run from the radical commonplaces, she explores floating feelings, building a world neither real nor fake, where life and death both conflict and express their affinities. Human figures or hybrid ones go alongside poetry, mystery, and architect her worldview that is both strange and delicate.
Lou Ros.
Born in 1985 – Lives in Paris
Self-taught artist Lou Ros, began his career by tagging walls and buildings with friends at the age of 17. Now 27, he's exhibiting his paintings worldwide with no less than seven upcoming group and solo exhibitions in Miami, New York, Paris and . . . Folkestone!
DUNGENESS|drift private view may 4th 2012 (photos – thanks to Barbara Rich)
may2nd to may 20th 2012
Andrew Sullivan, Paddy Hamilton, Marc Cristmas – DUNGENESS|drift
18 – 29 april 2012
Alex Dunn & Peter Davis
11th to 15th April
Live illustrations, DJ's and space bar on Friday 13th April 7pm to midnight
Hunter Gatherer – a collaboration between local artists, illustrators and graphic designers Squirl and Moose & Yeti
22nd March – 8th April (10am to 4pm, Wednesday to Sunday)
Stains, Traces and Tears – impressions from a field laboratory
Nicholette Goff
Two in the Hand . . . a group show featuring the work of kate mcleod, tessa payne and iain hales featuring paintings, objects and lifesize sculpture . . .
iain hales is interested in the notion of making sculpture that operates in ways more closely associated with painting. this is most clearly evidenced in his use of colour, but also in the way the smaller elements of his assemblages are 'drawn' against the larger, flat components, which act, almost as picture ground. within this framework Iain explores quite traditional concerns of form, scale, placement, texture, and materiality. with carefully considered juxtapositions and seemingly erratic collision of reference points – meaning and subject begin to emerge.
in kate mcleod's large-scale clay sculpture the human form is laid bare before us with uncompromising vigour and tension. building this piece in situ the work takes on a performative and animated stance diagramming the relationship between the economies of production, presentation and the ephemerality of site-specific sculpture. also exhibited will be a suite of photographic prints that re-present destroyed sculptural works as portraiture.
tessa payne will present a group of new works that will function as an introduction to a new vocabulary of a growing lexicon. Uniting the unknown with the every-day through a process of reduction and re-staging each piece will demonstrate the uncovering of various subjects drawn from a variety of sources including the Internet and personal photographic documentation. Shifting among media with a multiplicity of forms the work will show a rigorous investigation in to an idiosyncratic visual language.
iain hales (b.1977) and tessa payne (b.1982) both live and work in london. kate mcleod (b.1982) is currently living and working in belgium
charles newington – "beasts in space"
charles newington
charles newington, artist printer etcher. best known for the blazing hill figure which nestles in the north downs, a unique stylised white horse now adopted as an emblem for a region, business and leisure.
pigeon holing charles is not easy, an extensive career path over 40 years has proven that. water colourist, painter etcher, printmaker and book illustrator have shaped an ever changing, constantly fresh approach to his own work.
charles' first solo exhibition was in London in 1989, he has been exhibiting nationally and internationally ever since.
charles now resides in Folkestone and India.
"beasts in space" – 2nd-27th november 2011
"i started making the first " beasts " images about 20 years ago, inspired by the primal animist imagery of the palaeolithic cave paintings in south west france. their first solo show was at the rebecca hossack gallery in london in 1993. rebecca then went on to hang a bizarre 8 metre high tower of them at the barbican centre. other strange venues have been as decor for the rolling stones voodoo lounge tour backstage party area and the walls of blantyre house prison. beasts have been the theme for many further shows over the years
the main technique i use is a combination of dry pastel with " sfumato", (smoke painting) on rough handmade paper from nepal. larger pieces are made with oil and acrylic paints.
this exhibition at the space gallery shows both early work and a series of new pieces, revisiting and reviving an old, well trodden path. and it is a wonderful opportunity to put a show on titled " BEASTS IN SPACE ".
charles newington.
tom shedden – "unknown"
tom shedden currently lives and works in hythe. he completed his ba in illustration from central st martins in 1997 and continued his development into photography. in 2006, tom focused his direction to fine art painting. in 2009 he was selected for the turner contemporary open in margate, and in 2010 was also selected for the salon painting prize. more recently his work 'edwardian heyday' was installed as part of the folkestone triennial fringe.
"Japan, May 19th- June 6th 2011" by Laura Bell
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October 2014expanded
First Bilingual Education Fair of New York
In New York City's public school system, dual-language programs are booming. More and more parents understand the benefits of a bilingual education for their children. To help families to discover all aspects of bilingualism, the French-American Foundation is co-organizing with the web magazine French Morning and the Cultural Services of the French Embassy and with the support of the Québec Government Office in New York and FGR+S, the first Bilingual Education Fair of New York at Hunter College.
The Bilingual Education Fair of New York will be the first event for parents and educators who are interested in this new trend that is quickly changing so many schools in the United States. This event will be an opportunity to assess the situation, discuss the benefits of bilingual education, and the future of this type of curriculum in the United States.
This event will be held at Hunter College (West Building – 68th Street & Lexington Avenue/Manhattan) with the following format: Keynote speaker, fair, and conference/panel discussion on bilingualism with experts (psychologists, linguists, educators, etc.) all day. The fair will bring together more than 60 representatives from schools, publishers, education businesses, among others who promote bilingual education in all languages (French, Spanish, Chinese, Italian, German, etc.).
The number of tickets is limited so buy your tickets now at bilingualfair.org!
- 10 am: The bilingual brain, how it works, with Nate Cornish (co-Director of Clinical Services Bilingual Therapies); Adrian Garcia-Sierra Ph.D. (Department of Speech, Language & Hearing Science Affiliate Faculty, Cognitive Science University of Connecticut); Loraine K. Obler, Ph.D. (CUNY Graduate Center, NY), moderated by Jeffrey Kluger (TIME Magazine).
- 11 am: How to open a Dual Language Program in your public school, moderated by Fabrice Jaumont, with French, Italian, Japanese, Russian & German parents).
- 2 pm: Bilingual Education: passport to success or limit to assimilation? with Nairán Ramírez Esparza, Ph.D. (Department of Psychology, University of Connecticut); Elvira Swender, Ph.D. (Director of Professional Programs, The American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages (ACTFL), NY) and Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph.D. (University of Massachusetts Amherst), moderated by Maite Sánchez (CUNY- NYSIEB).
All day long, activities will be provided for kids and adults by: Le Camion des mots; Bilingual Birdies; FIAF


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Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself Here' started by estefanysd, Feb 28, 2016.
We are a latin porfessional married couple looking fun with black gentlemen.
You had a black man before
Just I had one
Welcome to our community hope you have fun!
Would love nothing more than to meet. Soon.
Hi SEXY couple I be delighted to know you 2. I can travel as well or host. Dexter
Very nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too
Thanks dexter, then refine details about a possible meet
I come to downtown SD and meet you at cool night club on 5th Street. We have drinks, dancing and flirting. Go to another club with jazz music played. Then head to my hotel room. I give you a nice n i st massage as Barry White music plays. Thereafter I began kissing your body, etc. Dexter
All sound great like a movie!
I am so glad you like! Fyi I was in SD years ago at a Oscar Delahoya fight! A guy there told me to go to a club on Fifth Street so I did! Downtown as you know is marvelous in SD! I remember the open Cigar store! Let us have some fun this spring and summer!
Very nice pics, ty
Sure I want the interest to be mutual! How I look forward to massaging your soft body! Dexter
Separate names with a comma.


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SamlAuthenticationClaimResource Class
Represents the resource type for a claim that is created from a SamlAuthenticationStatement.
Assembly: System.IdentityModel (in System.IdentityModel.dll)
Use the SamlAuthenticationClaimResource class to create a Claim instance for a SamlSecurityToken authentication claim. The Claim class has a constructor that takes a resource, which this class can be passed to.
SamlSecurityToken security tokens specify their claims using SAML assertions, which can specify when the subject was authenticated. The claims in a SAML assertion are represented by SAML statements. The SAML specification defines a set of SAML statement types and one of them is a SamlAuthenticationStatement. A SamlAuthenticationStatement asserts that the statement's subject is authenticated by a particular means at a particular time. The SamlAuthenticationClaimResource class represents a claim resource for the SamlAuthenticationStatement.
Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows XP SP2, Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows Server 2008, Windows Server 2003
The .NET Framework and .NET Compact Framework do not support all versions of every platform. For a list of the supported versions, see .NET Framework System Requirements.


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When Google switched to a single universal icon a few weeks back they created problems, the icons on my bookmarks toolbar are now … (wait for it) … IDENTICAL. The last two on the right are Google Analytics and Google Webmaster Central, so I have no idea which is which. Compare that to the Google Calendar, Google Reader, and Google … [Continue reading What's Wrong With A Universal Google Icon]
Archives for June 2008
What's Wrong With A Universal Google Icon
Google's Two Tiered Internet World Sinks to a New Low
Today Google released an new feature that gives away traffic stats and keywords for most websites on the internet. However what everyone failed to notice is that Google laid everyone else bare, naked and exposed but kept their own stats locked up and private.
Hey Matt Cutts Be Fair if You Are Going After Paid Links
Really I wasn't going to post this but since Matt Cutt's asked people to snitch on paid links again I thought I'd bring up another case of Google's double standard and two tiered justice.
Gmail and LinkedIn Can't We All Just Get Along
You know it would really be nifty if Google, Gmail, Google Apps, and Gmail for domains were able to merge/sync contact data with LinkedIn really easily. It would be super nifty if there was a nice automagic script that did the hard stuff for you (you know the way computers are supposed to). It would be even better if I … [Continue reading Gmail and LinkedIn Can't We All Just Get Along]
Why Does Gmail User Agent Cloaking
Have a Gmail account? Log in unless you've set your preference otherwise you'll get the AJAX UI. Now change your user agent to Googlebot, and refresh your page, it automatically loads the HTML version instead of asking you if you want the HTML. What's up with that? Why would GMail need a UA detection branch in it programming? Does it … [Continue reading Why Does Gmail User Agent Cloaking]
SMX Advanced Interview
So while I was at SMX Advanced I did an interview with Virginia Nussey of Bruce Clay for webmaster radio you can listen to it in the SEM Synergy Archives. It's short only about 8 minutes, or so the second half of the show has Derrick Wheeler of Microsoft talking about how he helps SEO's. Hope to have a my … [Continue reading SMX Advanced Interview]


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What are the terms of the NeighborhoodLIFT funding?
NeighborhoodLIFT funds are provided as a 5 year forgivable loan program for owner-occupied properties. As long as the borrower resides in the home the loan will be forgiven at a rate of 20% each year on the anniversary date of settlement. If the house is no longer a principal residence or the property is transferred, repayment of the balance of funds will be immediately due.
Are there income restrictions for eligible borrowers?
NeighborhoodLIFT funds are available for conventional and VA first mortgage loan borrowers with a HOUSEHOLD income up to 120% of the Area Median Income (AMI). For borrowers using an FHA loan the income limit is 115% of the AMI. Income Guidelines
If a person living in the home is not included on the loan to purchase the home does their income count in the calculation of household income?
Yes. HOUSEHOLD income is calculated using all income for people ages 18 and older living in the home after the purchase. Income Guidelines
Are there other financial requirements to participate in the program?
You may be required to make an additional down payment contribution from your own funds if your 'remaining liquid assets' at the time of settlement will exceed $20,000.
'Remaining liquid assets' are defined as your available funds in bank accounts such as checking, savings or money market accounts that are readily accessible without withdrawal restrictions or penalties after you have met any out-of-pocket settlement requirements from your own funds.
Liquid assets do not include Retirement Accounts (such as 401(k), IRA or pension accounts), Investment Accounts (such as stock, bond or mutual funds), Certificates of Deposit (CDs), Business Checking or Savings Accounts.
Liquid asset determinations and contribution requirement estimates are made at the time of the first mortgage loan application. Liquid asset funds that are subsequently transferred to restricted accounts after first mortgage application will not be excluded from contribution calculation requirements.
What first mortgage lenders are eligible to participate in the NeighborhoodLIFT program?
A complete list of participating partner lenders is available here
What is homebuyer education and how do I get it?
Homebuyer education is an eight-hour class that teaches about the home buying process. It includes a one hour session with a certified counselor. You may schedule a class withNeighborWorks Salt Lake or participate in the online class through partner e-Home America. You may also receive your homebuyer education from any HUD-Approved Housing Counseling Agency in Salt Lake City that has adopted the National Industry Standards for Homebuyer Education and Counseling.
I have a homebuyer education certificate from an agency that is not HUD Approved. Will that be accepted?
No. Only homebuyer education certificates from HUD Approved Housing Counseling Agencies located in Salt Lake City that have adopted the National Industry Standards for Homebuyer Education and Counseling are eligible for NeighborhoodLIFT funds.
NeighborhoodLIFT Approved Homebuyer Education providers:
NeighborWorks Salt Lake
622 West 500 North
Salt Lake City, UT 84116
(385) 252-5438
AAA Fair Credit Foundation
230 West 200 South, Suite 3104
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
(801) 483-0999
Community Development Corporation of Utah
501 East 1700 South
Salt Lake City, Utah 84105
(801) 994-7222
Can I own another home and still qualify for the NeighborhoodLIFT program?
Yes, if you currently own a home but will be selling it prior to closing on the NeighborhoodLIFT property, you can still be eligible for the program. At the time of closing you may not own any additional properties including investment properties.
Are short sale properties eligible for NeighborhoodLIFT funds?
Short sale properties are eligible for the program. The purchase agreement for the short sale property must be signed by the buyer and the seller to apply for NeighborhoodLIFT funds. The lender (lien holder of short sale property) must ratify the agreement prior to closing. NeighborhoodLIFT funds can be used in connection with the financing of a Wells Fargo short sale but only if Wells Fargo is not the new first mortgage lender on the short sale purchase. Another lender must originate the new first mortgage loan.
What expenses can I use the NeighborhoodLIFT DPA Funds to cover as part of my purchase of a home?
NeighborhoodLIFT down payment assistance funds may be used for any eligible purpose including closing costs assistance, down payment assistance, or borrower minimum out-of-pocket investment if allowed by the first mortgage loan program. NeighborhoodLIFT funds may not necessarily cover the closing costs or out-of-pocket requirements of an FHA first mortgage or other type of first mortgage loan. You should consult directly with your first mortgage lender and NeighborWorks Salt Lake to determine how NeighborhoodLIFT program funds may be used in connection with your home purchase.
Can I qualify for additional incentives along with NeighborhoodLIFT funds?
Yes. There are some programs eligible for layering incentives together with NeighborhoodLIFT funding. Programs include Community Development Corporation of Utah. (www.cdcutah.org.) You can also ask your lender about first mortgage incentives.
Q.v How do I know if I am eligible for additional incentive programs?
Eligibility for each program is determined by the program administrators. Contact them directly to participate in their programs.
Are there any properties in Salt Lake City that are not eligible for NeighborhoodLIFT funds?
Yes. Wells Fargo REO (real estate owned) properties are not eligible for NeighborhoodLIFT funds.
What do I need to do following the NeighborhoodLIFT event?
Following the NeighborhoodLIFT event, clients who receive an allocation of funds will have 60 days to obtain a contract on a home, and submit the required documents to NeighborWorks Salt Lake for an eligibility appointment. Clients who do not complete all of these steps will lose their NeighborhoodLIFT allocation. Clients are encouraged to submit the documents following the NeighborhoodLIFT event as soon as they are available.
Once a buyer is determined to be eligible for NeighborhoodLIFT, how quickly will the process move forward?
Once a buyer with a signed purchase and sale agreement is determined to be eligible by NeighborWorks Salt Lake, a commitment letter will be issued with a copy sent to the first mortgage lender. The lender will then prepare documents for closing and provide copies of required documents to NeighborWorks Salt Lake at least seven (7) business days prior to closing. NeighborWorks Salt Lake will then have all documents prepared for the closing.
Will extensions be allowed for clients who do not have a signed purchase and sale agreement on a home within 60 days of the event?
No. Extensions are only available for clients who have met the program requirements and are preparing for settlement.
If a contract falls through can the client change to another property?
Prior to the ending of the 60 day post-launch period, the client can resubmit a valid contract on another home and maintain their eligibility. Once the 60 day period following the NeighborhoodLIFT event is complete, the funding becomes property-specific and if the deal falls through the NeighborhoodLIFT funds are de-allocated.
What happens if I wasn't pre-approved for a first mortgage at the event?
Clients who were not able to qualify for a loan were offered financial fitness classes and counseling following the event. The classes and counseling are designed to help prepare clients to get approved for a first mortgage. Financial fitness classes are free and provide information on how to manage income and create a budget based on that income, how to save, how to obtain a credit report, as well as how to apply for and use credit.


text: Everytime I charge my phone, I will get the pop up stating it is done, click OK, unplug the phone and bam drops to 97%, So I plug it back in wait wait wait, says its done, unplug and now its like at 98% or 99%, do over again, eventually it goes to 100% says its done and stays at 100%. Do you think if I let it die a few times, it will eventually set this to match or anyone else have this. I have let it die twice since this past sunday, but it's annoying and every % of battery on this monster is precious LOL!!


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Apple Tree, Green Newtown Pippin
SOLD OUT for 2017
- Grass green, becoming yellow
- Firm, crisp, juicy
- Excellent for dessert, kitchen and cider
- Ripens very late
- Trees ship Spring 2018
From Newtown, Long Island, New York prior to 1795. Form variable, but usually roundish oblate, more or less angular and ribbed, medium to very large size. Skin: when first ripe, grass green, becoming yellowish with occasional brownish or brownish-pink blush and white dots. Flesh: tinged with green, firm, crisp, tender, moderately fine-textured, juicy, sprightly sub-acid, aromatic; excellent for dessert, kitchen and cider. Ripens very late.
Apple images from:
U.S. Department of Agriculture Pomological Watercolor Collection. Rare and Special Collections, National Agricultural Library, Beltsville, MD 20705
NALDC Record Details