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|A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day... section on November 15, 2011 and November 15, 2013.
|Text and/or other creative content from this version of Porajmos was copied or moved into Korkoro with [435772377 this edit] on 23 June, 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists.
- 1 Map is not public domain
- 2 not true
- 3 serbian government
- 4 aryan, more or less
- 5 Indoiranian Gypsies:
- 6 Prof. Ian Hancock's Coinage?
- 7 Samudaripen ?
- 8 The G word
- 9 Stereotype + Use of antiziganist source?
- 10 Vulgar talk about Romani is widely accepted in our society
- 11 Timing
- 12 Porrajmos
- 13 The Roma are as Aryan as the German Nazis
- 14 Title
- 15 New category : Depiction in films
- 16 Death rates
- 17 Belzec Pictures
- 18 Spelling
- 19 Neologism
- 20 previous attempts at ethnic cleansing?
- 21 deleted images
- 22 Vandals
- 23 Vandals 2
- 24 External links modified
- 25 Shouldn't the Porajmos be considered part of the Holocaust?
Map is not public domain[edit]
I hope someone can help me figure out the right thing to do here. The map on the Porajmos page is actually not in the public domain. It was created by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and can be found here: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10005149 The Museum's policies are found here: http://www.ushmm.org/priv_acc/index.php?content=disclaimer/ I believe that the Museum would be very happy to make the map available for use on Wikipedia but would want a credit to the Museum placed by the map image. Would that be acceptable to Wikipedia, or can only photos that are really in the public domain be presented?
not true[edit]
It is not true that Nedic goverment of occupied Serbia organized extermination of Gypsies - the situation there cannot be compared to the Ustashe regime who had organized extermination program and extermination camps. The situation is Serbia can be compared to the one in Norwegia, Denmark, Greece, Chech republic, even Bulgaria and Romania. Gypsies find one of the friendliest home in Serbia today all over Eastern Europe, and there is nothing like the racism incidents of Czech republic or even Romania. While on margins of society, any Gypsy from Serbia can tell you that.
During WWII shootings have been done by the Nazis in Serbia, most notoriously in massacre in Kragujevac where 7000 people have been killed, some of them were gypsies. While itis possible that Nedic serbian guards have cooperated in rouding up civilians and arresting them, there was no extermination of gypsies organized by the goverment of occupied Serbia. Serbs, victims of genocide together with Gypsies in WWII, would consider such randomly thrown lies (I have never seen such a claim before) as a grave lie and shameless insult!!!
serbian government[edit]
"Meanwhile, the Serbian government also killed thousands of Gypsies. "
This statement is wrong. Are there any proofs for it? Goya 04:48, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)
serbs are slavs, and i've long heard that some slavs, particularly many czechs, are anti-gypsy. but that doesn't automatically make the statement in quotes above true. however, i haven't studied this subject enough to know if the statement in quotes ISN'T true. Gringo300 00:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Agree - inaccurate - 18.104.22.168 (talk) 03:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)twl188.8.131.52 (talk) 03:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
aryan, more or less[edit]
- the Gypsies were no less Aryan, and perhaps even more Aryan, than the Germans themselves.
I removed the statement "and perhaps even more Aryan" because it assumes correct the Nazi theory of genetical purity. There's no such thing as "more Aryan", all Indo-European tribes assimilated the local populations where they settled (Germans in N.Europe, Gypsies in India). Gypsies were no less Aryan than the Germans and Germans were no less Aryan than the Gypsies. Bogdan | Talk 13:42, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- That's not quite true. I think the original editor probably meant to point out that the Gypsies derived from the people who actually called themselves "Aryans" – the people we now call Indo-Iranians. There is no evidence that ancient Germans ever called themselves "Aryans". In that sense it is true to say that Gypsies were "more Aryan" than Germans. It does not involve accepting "the Nazi theory of genetic purity" at all. It merely points to some of the contradictions in the Nazis' own ideology. Whether it's worth mentioning this in the article, I don't know, but I've partly indicated it with changes to the section on Gypsy/Aryan identity. Paul B 17:05 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)
- Their language was derived from the language of the "Aryans", but genetically, most of the population of India (Gypsies including) is formed from non-IE people assimilated by the IE invasion. (In Europe, while higher, the percentage of "IE genes" is still somewhere around 20-30%) bogdan | Talk 16:37, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- My point was that it is not about "racial purity" at all, which presupposes the existence of some sort of original "race" that then gets "mixed".
- Isolated populations did develop some traits that made them different from the other human populations. But, of course, the "purity" (read "homogenity") of those populations was lost as soon as they joined other populations. And 200 generations later it's absurd to talk about "purity": you won't find one person in the whole Europe that has genes from only one of those ancient groups. bogdan | Talk 20:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
- Aryans were Indo-Iranians. As far as we know PIEs never called themselves that. Paul B 20:15 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)
- The "aristos" connection is not widely accepted anymore, at least not in the sense that it refers back to an ancient ethnic-identifier. Paul B 21:103 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)
"More Aryan" is indeed a silly expression. Perhaps the writer meant to say: "Even if we foolishly were to accept, for the sake of argument, the Nazi racial theories, the Romani would qualify as 'Aryan'. This fact provides us with a reductio ad absurdum showing how silly these theroeis are." Tom18.104.22.168 23:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, that is not quite what the writer means here. What he meant to say was that "Aryan" generally refers to the Indo-European peoples. Not only are the Romani people of "Aryan" origin (as opposed to Dravidian, Munda, etc.), but also they clearly have origins in North India (as opposed to e.g. the Germans and other Nordic peoples, whose "Indic origin" was not, and apparently is not, as well confirmed).
- I hope I'm making at least some sense here! :) BTW, I may be wrong in using the term "Indo-European" (should it be Indo-Aryan? Indo-Iranian? I'm afraid I haven't yet looked into the "Aryan"-related debates). --Kuaichik 00:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Indoiranian Gypsies:[edit]
First of all: true arians are Persians and people related to them such as Scythians, Greeks and old Sanskrit Hindus. Germans fit more into the nordic barbarian tribes and the vikings. Aryans were the first white race, yet not all white races have blue eyes, blond hair and 1.9 m (6'3") tall on the contrary those where divergences into barbarian tribes (whom also had aryan blood but distant for centuries in living in Icy Regions).
The true aryans where white skinned or copper almond like, green or dark profound eyes, thick beards, hair on chest, high long postured, thick chested-back, well built and warrior like nomadic horse riders that established themselves in Iran; and came from the Cacaus mountains.
Gypsies or Roma People are of total Indoaryan or Indopersian descent. Their language is not only pure Indopersian or Indoaryan but it closely resembles the actual Punjabi, Sindi, Kashmiri, Pothohari and Dardic Mountain Languages of Pakistan, aswell as old Rajasthani (close to classical sanskrit) and even Farsi.
Gypsy tradition as aryans (old persians) is nomadic and guided by the stars. The branch of Indopersian (aryan) or Indoafghan peoples that invaded actual India and established themselves in India is in fact very close to the Rajputs and Jatts of aryan-scythian origin. They are the true Rajasthans Indosthans and defenders of the old territories of Pakistan and North India against Monguls and Arabs for years mamy years ago. When defeated they pledged alliance to Rama God and prefered to maintain their spirit of nomadic warriors.
Today in Rajasthan many people still see them as the original inhabitants and as outo ostrichized warrior hight cast people that ruled in tiems of the Old Hindosthan Era.
Many articales talk about how many of the Lohars and gypsies of North India still have green eyes, long beards, clearer hair and moustashes. This tradition is seen even today by gypsies wearing long hair, moustashes and beards as Old Aryans dide thousands of years ago.
Its good to know that true asians be it dravidians, nepalis etc have no facial hair; no thick beards, non thin noses and never clear eyes or green eyes. This shows total Aryan descent of Romamy People as origin, atleast for most of them in the warrior or priest class. Skin for many of them is almond for desert living the hot deserts for thousands of years or mountain reddish tone skin like Punjabis and Kashmiris and sometimes even more pale. Most gypsies look like Bollywood Stars most of them come from actual Rajasthan, Kashmir, Mewar, etc
You can also find resembleness of the true Gypsies in tribes of half aryan and mongolian blood in the frontiers of the Himalayas; they have white sking and many times more middleastern (scythian) or persian look. They show many resembleance to Pakistani Gypsies or Afghan Nomads that came from Sind as in their silk clothes, have traditional long moustashes and beards, are still great daggar and knife makers, carpet makers and great musicians.
True Romany People migrated in a time where India was more Indoaryan or Indoirani-Indopersian than what we see today. They left old Punjab-"Sind" (Sinti) and Kashmir-"Sringar" (Zingaro) valleyes fighting mongols and arabs and spread in two ways:
1)Europe: via Kashmir-Afghanistan and the establisehd themselves in the Silk Road whre they reached Iran, then spit into sub groups leaving for Turkey and Greece and others into Egypt. They brought the famous "Cockfights" to Europe and ofcourse their soulful music.
2)Rajasthan: and Thar Deserts; Others that were not captured by mongols and arabs fled in to the "Rajasthan Deserts" as u see them today; arrogant attitide and warlike passionete spirits that refuse to be part of modern Indians and want to maintain their old Aryan-Scythian mark as nomadic horse riders of Rajput and Jatt descent.
Although many have have mixed with dravidian peoples they still show some aryan traits like their attitude towards life: agressive battle like attitude, long mustashes, beards, long hairs for nomadic Priests, beutiful scarfs, some have green eyes (Rajasthan is famous for green eye Gypsies), knife and metal weopon making, acrobatic skills as old warriors did, great horse riders and modern musicians: whom after the wars refuse to loose their Hindosthani culture.
Im not saying that Roma People are pure aryans or persians but they are rooted in Indopersian and Indoscythian Cultures: "Rajputs and Jatts", some did asimilate a little dravidian blood (especially Romany Low in the Chain usually women) but most of them that reached Europre belong to the true Blacksmith, Warrior and great Hordesmen of totall "Rajputic" partly scythian and persian blood, all famous in North India and Pakistan during the copper era as the Old Hindosthans of Sind.
You can see Gypsies as old nomadic aryans of Persia by their facial traits (red almond skin: not black dravidian, green or dark eyes, thick beards and long mustashes),language (Rajasthan, Pakisthan, Iran, Terhan = Aryan old Persian: not Bombay =asiatic or dravidian terminolgy) Culture-Values (Virginity for Women is not an asian since Kamasutra is asiatic-dravidian; yet Romany people have middleaster or old persian values), their Dress (Silk and powerful colours command to traders and nomads of Afganistan, Iran and Pakistan) anf ofcourse Romany Music; which is closer to Norther Paqkistani, Old Indian and old Iranian Music (wich is based on Sanskrit Aryan Music)than dravidian southern music.
Hence that back 1000 years ago (around when they left into the mountains and deserts it was 1000 AD) then North Indian territories had alot more persian, scythian % of people, that looked more like peoples of Iran,Afghanistan and Bollywood North Indian Actors......
Well Gypsies are not 100% Aryan, I have to say there is much Dravidian blood in Gypsies-look at the photos,
Gypsies from the Greek Islands
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dimitri/31383451/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/dimitri/39222130/in/set-1148683/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/dimitri/39222128/in/set-1148683/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/51116994@N00/125665681/
The farther into Europe the Gypsies went, more and more European blood has been introduced into Gypsies, to say Gypsies are 100% Aryan is false. And I am sure the Aryans in Iran have much Dravidian blood too.
According to this website Elamite is a Dravidian language in Western Iran, almost in Iraq!!!!
This was taken from http://www.iranologie.com/history/history1.html
"Elam, the most powerful and longest lasting civilisation of the Iranian plateau prior to the Aryan arrival, has a complex history. Most of the history of Elam has been recorded by their fierce enemies Babylonians and Assyrians, or by their successors, the Persians, who had a strong incentive to undermine the late Elamite kingdom. As a result, Elamite representation has not been very fair or accurate, and only due to the recent scholarship and reading of Elamite inscriptions we can have a good idea of their culture.
As with the Kassites, we do not have a reliable knowledge of Elamite origin. As far back as 4th millennium BCE, evidence of Elamite settlement in the plains of Khuz (northern Persian Gulf) exist. Researches done on the Elamite skeletons show their racial closeness to the Sumerians and Dravidians of Indus Valley, while their language, at least in its latest form, shows very little connections with these cultures."
Quote from http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/history-article3.htm
23. The Turkish People are a result of the mixture of the early Iranians, and the Chinese; Semites and Egyptians, Palestinians and Arabs, are the mixtures of Iranians and Africans; while the Indians are a mixture of Iranians (Brahman) and the native blacks of India, Dravidians. (Gardeshgari, March 2000 p. 47).
Prof. Ian Hancock's Coinage?[edit]
A certain user "Timault," who currently has neither a user page nor a discussion page, had claimed that the word Porrajmos was coined by Prof. Ian Hancock. Does Timault or anyone else have any evidence of this?
In his book We Are the Romani People, the Professor himself seems to be of the opinion that it is a general term used by some Romanies. (Yes, I said "Romani," not "Roma"! There's a perfectly good reason for that, too, but I think I'll discuss that later.) He also notes that "(s)ome hesitate to say the word out loud," so I am extremely skeptical of the claim that he coined this word.
If anybody has any evidence, please discuss it in this section! Until then, though, I am reverting to the original claim, i.e. that it was coined by Romanies themselves.--Kuaichik 22:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- There is an interesting article at Prof. Hancock's website covering the history of the term. He denies actually coining the term (which he attributes to an unknown Romani he talked with in 1993), but apparently is the person responsible for popularizing it. His memory may be slightly off in terms of the year, though, as the journal Nationalities Papers 19 (3) apparently mentioned the "Porajmos" in 1991.--Pharos 07:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- (Reply to Kuaichik) Now I'm curious: why do you prefer Romani/Romany to Roma? Not disputing you, just interested. +ILike2BeAnonymous 22:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry about that! According to Prof. Hancock, many Romanies actually do not call themselves "Rroma" (especially since "Rrom" specifically means a married Romani man, and "Rroma" is the plural form of "Rrom"). Some Romanies (e.g. in Britain) believe that "Rroma" refers to Romanies from other areas (e.g. Hungarian Romanies). However, though they don't consider themselves Rroma, they would consider themselves Romani. --Kuaichik 04:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- The earliest scholarly use of the term in this context that I can find is The Romani Porajmos: the Nazi genocide of Gypsies in Germany and Eastern Europe by Henry R. Huttenbach in The Gypsies of Eastern Europe, 1991. Its possible that Hancock or someone else had previously coined the term. RashersTierney (talk) 14:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry about that! According to Prof. Hancock, many Romanies actually do not call themselves "Rroma" (especially since "Rrom" specifically means a married Romani man, and "Rroma" is the plural form of "Rrom"). Some Romanies (e.g. in Britain) believe that "Rroma" refers to Romanies from other areas (e.g. Hungarian Romanies). However, though they don't consider themselves Rroma, they would consider themselves Romani. --Kuaichik 04:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Samudaripen ?[edit]
Porrajmos certainly is a word coined by the Romani people, but *Samudaripen is not. *Samudaripen is not a possible or grammatical word in Romani.
See the first link in the article: according to Prof. Hancock, this word violates the rules of Romani morphology and was coined by a linguist (obviously a gadžo). --Kuaichik 06:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- But Samudaripen is really used as a "common Romani word", that means not belonging to any dialects but made on Romani bases. Several words like this appeared in the end of the XX century when different Roma began to discuss common problems. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a Vlax Romni. Do you know what does Porrajmos mean in Vlax Romani chib? Do you know why many Romani activists tried to argue with Hancock? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, yes, of course. And don't worry, Prof. Hancock knows that, too. In fact, he mentions in We Are the Romani People that Porrajmos is a taboo word among many Romanies. --Kuaichik (talk) 17:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- So why, for all fried hedgehogs, why do we use in Wikipedia the taboo word?! RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, yes, of course. And don't worry, Prof. Hancock knows that, too. In fact, he mentions in We Are the Romani People that Porrajmos is a taboo word among many Romanies. --Kuaichik (talk) 17:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a Vlax Romni. Do you know what does Porrajmos mean in Vlax Romani chib? Do you know why many Romani activists tried to argue with Hancock? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Because Wikipedia is not censored, perhaps? Just a thought, however lacking it may be in insight :-/ --Kuaichik (talk) 19:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The G word[edit]
This has been mentioned in other topic discussion pages. The term 'gypsies' is apparently pejorative. It has been suggested that the term Romani be substituted. I await feedback before making any changes.Doktor Waterhouse 13:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'd agree, except, of course, in cases where it's a direct quote or part of a phrase like "Gypsy Question." - TheMightyQuill 16:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Same here. I agree with TheMightyQuill. --Kuaichik 04:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The word Gypsy is derives from Egyptian. People at one point thought erroneously that Romani people derived from Egypt.
- Yeah, thanks, but I think we know ;) --Kuaichik 00:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Martin Gilbert's Holocaust Atlas uses it, but I don't need to quote his use of it if I use Romani. Noted also that there are Scottish Travellers and Irish Travellers but no English Travellers?? Hugo999 (talk) 01:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Stereotype + Use of antiziganist source?[edit]
The first sentence of the section "Aryan racial purity" reads:
"In the thousand years that nomadic Romani tribes wandered through Europe, they were subject to persecution and humiliation[citation needed]; they were stigmatized as habitual criminals, social misfits, and vagabonds[citation needed]."
We Are the Romani People, among many many other sources, could be cited as a source for the above statement - if not for the words "(i)n the thousand years that nomadic Romani tribes wandered through Europe." These words reinforce the stereotype of the "gypsy wanderer" and are not accurate in any case (or at least they're misleading). Eastern European Romanies have been settled for hundreds of years. Western European Romanies have a longer nomadic tradition, but they, too, are mostly (or largely) settled nowadays.
I'm also skeptical of the use of a rather racist quote by Emanuel Ringelblum. Is it really necessary or relevant? It may give the wrong impression to readers who do not know much about the Romani people. There is plenty of information otherwise describing the Nazis' motives, so I see no reason why it should be included here. The cost is seemingly greater than the benefit. --Kuaichik 23:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting, I was under the apparently false impression that the settlement of most Central & Eastern European Roma was forced upon them by 19th & 20th century governments, particularly communists. When & why did this settlement occur? Our History of the Romani people article doesn't even mention it. Can you offer some good sources on this? Thanks. - TheMightyQuill 06:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, for now, I can cite We Are the Romani People for that as well. It says, "In eastern Europe...the [Romani] population has been sedentary for centuries..." I have reproduced the full quote below; it is from a chapter on Romani cuisine and describes the effect of such settlement on this cuisine.
- "In eastern Europe, where the population has been sedentary for centuries, the dishes are very much like those eaten by the surrounding non-Romanies; 'Romani tea', for example, is the same as Russian tea, and sarmi, cabbage rolls, are also found in plenty of European ethnic cultures under different names. In western Europe, where Romani groups have been more mobile, choice of diet has for centuries depended upon what was available directly from the land."
- Another book by Prof. Hancock called The Pariah Syndrome (available on this page on Patrin) and another page featured on Patrin, suggest that Romanies were enslaved soon after their arrival in eastern Europe. In Western Europe, however, they were generally considered dangerous (they were sometimes mistaken to be Turks, since Western Europeans, unlike Eastern Europeans, usually did not know what Turks looked like). For this reason, they were then ordered to move on. (For the last two sentences, I have once again used We Are the Romani People as a source.) --Kuaichik 02:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Vulgar talk about Romani is widely accepted in our society[edit]
People who consider themselves far too cultured to speak vulgarly of "jewing [someone] down" think nothing of talk about "gypping [someone]."
I remember from my childhood watching a Bob Newhart comedy routine on TV, in which Newhart portrays an enterprising bigot looking for a new ethnic group to stigmatize. Someone suggests "gypsies", and Newhart says, "That's no good. They'll just steal your picket signs." Tom22.214.171.124 00:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, that's because of the huge lack of information. Very few people (including Indians themselves!) know that the Romanies are an ethnic group, just like the Jews, Afro-Americans, etc. Other ethnic groups (such as Jews and Afro-Americans!) have won the strong support of some government(s); Romanies have no such administrative support at all. And so the stereotype remains uninhibited, even among educated non-Romanies. --Kuaichik 02:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, some groups are still relatively safe targets for slurs and "jokes" that would be unacceptable if directed at Jewish-Americans. Romani are certainly one of them. Judging by the content of American movies and television shows, Germans and Arabs are two of the others. In contrast, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League has a long-established policy of zero tolerance regarding such material when directed at Jews and sets an outstanding example for the organizations that represent other racial, national, ethnic and religious groups. (126.96.36.199 (talk) 20:12, 16 June 2010 (UTC))
I seems a bit strange to put The vast majority of Roma were to suffer the same indignities as the Jews, when the time line in the reference puts the persecution of the Roma as starting earlier than the Jewish persecution.
so I've put it into the correct chronological order as "The vast majority of Jews were to suffer the same indignities as the Roma".
Plus how do you correctly reference an article? Ian Hancock's should be put in http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/pariah-ch9.htm after all he is one of the foremost Roma spokespersons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 (talk • contribs) 13:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, Ashley! About the referencing of that article - you did it almost exactly right. It's just that there should only be one space between a URL and its title, no returns. I've fixed the ref for you on the Ian Hancock article :) --Kuaichik (talk) 04:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oops. You're talking about adding the reference to this article! LOL, sorry about that!! --Kuaichik (talk) 04:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for putting the reference correction in,Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
My God, are here any Roma? Porrajmos means rape, violation, that's a bad word for genocide of Roma. I can't look at this page. Ian Hancock should learn Romani better! I wonder if he is a real Rom. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)
- Could it be that it means devouring in some Romani dialects and not others? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I learnt the problem and found out that this word exists only in dialects of Vlax Romani group and have too meanings: "opening" and "rape/violation". Ian Hancock insists (we communicated by email) that he was told this word means "an evil deed" - I just think when he asked for the first time, the man who answered was confused. In Romani press in countries where this word is really used by Roma you can't find this word as a term for genocide, we usually use other words, such as "Gipsy holocaust", "Samudaripen" and "Kali Tras". RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it does mean what you say it means. And yes, of course Prof. Ian Hancock is Romani!! And finally, yes, of course he knows that many Romanies would not dare to say that word! Nevertheless, samudaripen is (technically) inconsistent with how words are generally formed in Romani. Kali Traš makes sense, though. --Kuaichik (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- "And finally, yes, of course he knows that many Romanies would not dare to say that word" - I know, I have asked him. He doesn't think that's important. But he is not the main representative of Romanies, only one of thousands. The term is not commonly used in a Romani community, so why in Wikipedia we can't use any word that's not an object of discussions or that's not perojative? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 09:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it does mean what you say it means. And yes, of course Prof. Ian Hancock is Romani!! And finally, yes, of course he knows that many Romanies would not dare to say that word! Nevertheless, samudaripen is (technically) inconsistent with how words are generally formed in Romani. Kali Traš makes sense, though. --Kuaichik (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I learnt the problem and found out that this word exists only in dialects of Vlax Romani group and have too meanings: "opening" and "rape/violation". Ian Hancock insists (we communicated by email) that he was told this word means "an evil deed" - I just think when he asked for the first time, the man who answered was confused. In Romani press in countries where this word is really used by Roma you can't find this word as a term for genocide, we usually use other words, such as "Gipsy holocaust", "Samudaripen" and "Kali Tras". RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You're free to add other words with references, and if you find references to other words being used in English texts, you can propose a move. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Themightyquill, I'm pretty sure other words are already in the article with references, and RomanyChaj, I think you raise a good question. In fact, now that you mention it, I also think that first sentence should be changed. But first, I think this should be discussed with someone who (I think) would know much more about this than I do. --Kuaichik (talk) 18:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- RomanyChaj, IH is not the only Romani scholar, but he is the most respected worldwide. What you must understand is that whatever word will be used there'll always be people not contented with it. For example you use the word "Gypsy" that most educated Romanies avoid. AKoan (talk) 08:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- And that's the reason why this word is used in Wikipedia only in historical or folklore context. Why there is no the same relation to another word that's not good for half of Roma, for "Porajmos"? What's the logic? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- RomanyChaj, IH is not the only Romani scholar, but he is the most respected worldwide. What you must understand is that whatever word will be used there'll always be people not contented with it. For example you use the word "Gypsy" that most educated Romanies avoid. AKoan (talk) 08:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Themightyquill, I'm pretty sure other words are already in the article with references, and RomanyChaj, I think you raise a good question. In fact, now that you mention it, I also think that first sentence should be changed. But first, I think this should be discussed with someone who (I think) would know much more about this than I do. --Kuaichik (talk) 18:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The Roma are as Aryan as the German Nazis[edit]
The Roma are descended from Northern Indian whom most share a common ancestor to the Germanic people, The Nazi took pride with there Aryan Ancestors, Most North Indians are Descendents of Aryans and most Roma are North Indian, so the Roma are as Aryan as their Germans cousins. La convivencia (talk) 20:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Which partly explains their 'special interest' in them. RashersTierney (talk) 15:57, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Don't take the Nazi classifications too seriously. Unless you need it for a novel or something. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 06:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Since the term is not accepted by everybody (and it has not been proved that it is even accepted by the majority), I think the article should simply be called neutrally "Roma/Romani genocide", as on the Russian wiki, with specific terms being relegated to a separate section. Otherwise, Wikipedia appears to endorse one side in a debate that is not over. --126.96.36.199 (talk) 14:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
New category : Depiction in films[edit]
I have added a new category covering the subject's depiction in films. morelMWilliam 07:23, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
Death rates[edit]
Hancock's numbers are wrong for several countries. For instance for France, all historical works (since the 1980's) indicate 250 victims (Denis Peschansk, Les tsiganes en France, 1939-1946, CNRS, 1994 and Emmanuel Filhol, Marie-Christine Hubert, Les Tsiganes en France. Un sort à part, 1939-1946, Perrin, 2009)
i don't get the numbers either. it's hardly credible there would have been only 500 roma in netherlands for example. and populations of roma these days are in the millions. over europe. simon levy guesses the nrs killed are way higher then the article suggests and will never be retrieved. personally i am familiar with the reasoning that goes, h. killed 10 percent of every populace, so on average. what is special? he did not do worse relatively then the average ruler had done, better rather. roma also tended to resist arrest, perhaps that is why the nr's are so vague, i assume resistance was quite lethal if it failed. simon levy at least suggests that quite often roma communities got exterminated in situ.22.214.171.124 (talk) 13:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Belzec Pictures[edit]
The various pictures showing Gypsies in Belzec are from 1940. They were gathered in a so-called labor camp. See the credits at USHMM http://digitalassets.ushmm.org/photoarchives/detail.aspx?id=6223&search=belzec&index=20
This article uses the spelling with one R rather than two. I've noticed that Ian Hancock uses two Rs. I know that many scholars use one, but these seem to be mostly those who do not speak the Romani language.
Would anyone be able to confirm how the word is spelt by native speakers of Romani? Epa101 (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
- The orthography we should use is the most current in English, even if it'd be, for example, Pawrhyemos.
- Seemingly 'rr' vs 'r' is phonemic in some dialects but merged into /r/ for most of Romani due to its Central/Western/Northern European adstratum. I find it better to use the larger phoneme set for phonemic transcriptions (it seems to have originated in the retroflex set of South Asian languages, so the symbol for a retroflex tap – as we do for the lateral-non-lateral tap-trill[-stop?][-approximant?] alveolar-postalveolar continuum of Japanese – or retroflex approximant is my bet), so this would easily clear up any confusion to those into this subject.
- Also, is there a particular reason to the use of Pharrajmos? Is it a word with a floating vowel phoneme, or does it mean a marginal phoneme present in some dialects but not in others? Lguipontes (talk) 07:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
The Vlax Romani Wikipedia uses "Poraimos", which is how I assume porajmos is pronounced. I've seen the camel-case spelling "rRomanes", maybe as a compromise over the single vs double ar? — kwami (talk) 08:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Yeah, I'd assume both to be the case, too. Romani reflects the orthographies of neighboring languages and I've never heard/read that Balkanic languages had really complex orthographies (their alphabets seem simpler than, say, Portuguese) or excessive relics of old morphologies complicating it and pronunciation (like, say, French). Also, do you think that solely retroflex tap to describe the rhotic is the more appropriate one? By Romani people (that I checked again after fixing the IPA of the article) seems to indicate that uvular trill is dominant. Perhaps we should use two transcriptions, the first with a retroflex symbol and the other with a trill (a uvular or long alveolar one), idk.
- I'd also want to know where we are supposed to put a stress mark, either the explanation on the article or the source on Romani language were read by my brain shortly as "unpredictable; too complex", anyone you know has knowledge in Romani for this? Lguipontes (talk) 10:40, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
As the article is perfeclty aware that the term was coined in the 1990s and is rejected by some Romani, why on earth was it chosen as article title? WP:NAME is clear enough, use the most commonly used term, which would presumably be "Roma holocaust". Don't try to use Wikipedia as a vehicle to push your preferred terminology. --dab (𒁳) 09:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- The term may be relatively new, but it has gained rapid academic acceptance. See Google scholar Porajmos 202 hits, Google scholar "Roma holocaust" 194 hits, Google books Porajmos 796 hits, Google books "Roma holocaust" 688 hits. RashersTierney (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know I'm getting in late on this discussion, but what I see is that there are several different terms to refer to the Nazi genocide of the Roma. We've got something descriptive like "Roma holocaust" or "Roma genocide", there is "Samudaripen" which is the word commonly used by Romani groups that were the primary targets of the genocide, and we've got "Porajmos" which is in fact offensive to many Roma who were the victims of the genocide. The google scholar search shows Porajmos is slightly more commonly used than the other terms, but since all the terms are relatively new, and infrequently used (218 hits is the highest), any one is really a valid word for the genocide. So why do we use the term that is offensive to some of its victims? One professor comes up with a term using a Romani word with a definition he thinks fits, doesn't realize it is offensive to some, and goes with it. Later hen says that the word actually used by Roma to describe the genocide isn't a good word because it doesn't follow the proper structure of the language. Since Samudaripen is actually being used, it is irrelevant whether it was 'properly formed'.
- I don't think wikipedia should censor itself, but when you have several equally valid titles for an article, I think it is a poor choice to pick the term offensive to some of the victims. It seems like the best title for this article should be "Roma genocide" or "Roma holocaust" with "Samudaripen" being a good second choice if we feel like we need a specific term rather than a descriptive title, but "Porajmos" should be relegated to mention as a term coined by one professor to describe the event.Dworjan (talk) 07:53, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I would be extremely wary of claims on things "rapidly gaining acceptance" and the like. Wikipedia is very often used as a tool by people who desire some term to "gain acceptance". Ian Hancock an d his views, theories, terminology and so on is all over Wikipedia. You would think that nobody else has anything to say about the Romani. I don't know if Hancock himself is pushing this, or if he just has devout followers, but the thing is that Hancock speaks neither for the Romani nor for academia, he is just one author and he doesn't get to decide what things are called. If his term becomes standard without our help, fine, we can say as much after it has become standard, based on authors other than Hancock, because, let's face it, if something is "standard" you will not need to keep harping on a single scholar's publications and opinions.
It also doesn't help putting Hancock in WP:RS territory that the man is trying to fill the double role of Romani scholar and Romani political activist. Half of the time it isn't clear whether he is (a) stating an objective fact, (b) trying to push some political agenda or (c) just letting the public participate in his personal meditations on his ethnic background. It is up to him to decide to mix up research and political activism, but for our purposes this means that he cannot be treated as a regular academic source, he is to be treated as a primary source with an specific agenda. --dab (𒁳) 07:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
- Do you have any idea how to propose to rename a wikipedia page? Because I would wholeheartedly support a rename to "Romani genocide". Porajmos isn't a widely used term, and it is considered offensive by some of the victims. I think your rewrite of the lede is spot on. It organizes the descriptors for the genocide in descending order of use. Now all that needs to be done is change the article title to match. Dworjan (talk) 07:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
previous attempts at ethnic cleansing?[edit]
I was wondering if the fact that their have been previous attempts at ethnic cleansing of the Romani had takin place in Germany, specificaly with Charles VI and Joseph I both ordering all Gypsy males killed and Charles VI going further, "Charles VI amended the decree to include the execution of adult female Romani, while children were "to be put in hospitals for education"" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 21:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
deleted images[edit]
Before in this article there was images like [1],[2],[3], so ehat happened,why they are not exist now? --188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
The page has been vandalized. Please take action. Carlotm (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Vandals 2[edit]
A vandalism, similar to the preceding, is taking place. Act please. Carlotm (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
External links modified[edit]
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Shouldn't the Porajmos be considered part of the Holocaust?[edit]
It's the same bunch of offenders (the Nazis) killing the Romani at the same time as the Jews. Thus, since it's really the same group of people killing both groups of people at one time, the two are really parts of the same genocide. 2601:84:8A01:35D9:A80D:7A4A:24FD:1D82 (talk) 01:17, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
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What you like and dislike reveals a lot about you, and the same goes for ferrets. Will a ferret fit into your household if you prefer everything neat, tidy and in its place? What about a household that's charmingly cluttered? Every ferret is an individual with unique likes and dislikes, but ferret owners and ferret shelter operators reveal a few common ferret characteristics — some expected and some unexpected.
Smart In Many WaysFerrets are intelligent. In fact, a 2012 Plos One article by Anna Hernadi, Anna Kis, Borbala Turcsan and Jozsef Topal titled Man's Underground Best Friend: Domestic Ferrets, Unlike The Wild Forms, Show Evidence Of Dog-Like Social-Cognitive Skills, suggests that ferrets share some social-behavioral characteristics with dogs and rely on cues from people for information. Their intelligence makes them both a joy and a challenge.
Sukie Crandall has owned ferrets for more than 30 years and said that ferrets are people-pleasers. "Some will alter their behaviors to manage that, so reinforcing the desired behaviors seems to work best, but others will do the undesired things if people are not watching."
But ferret smarts don't seem to end with just taking cues from people. Brenda Johnson of the Lakeroad Ferret Farm Rescue/Shelter in upstate New York said ferrets have a sense of adventure and are like a perpetual 2-year-old child who never grows up, but they are also problem-solvers. "[Ferrets] can look at a challenge and work out how they are going to overcome that challenge," she said. This includes tasks like how to get over a barrier, get to the top of the table, get a Velcro zip-tie undone and removed from a gate and more. Johnson has owned ferrets since 1992 and opened her ferret shelter in 1995.
Crandall said her ferret Hilbert was good at escaping from his cage at night. "He seemed to realize that we would be more vigilant about that if he was too bad, so he worked at trying to be good and even sometimes would put himself back in after we knew he'd been out at night." She added that Hilbert could also let himself into a room and then close the door behind himself; she theorized this might be to delay being caught doing mischief.
Curious, intelligent and athletic ferrets sometimes cause worry for ferret owners. Bonnie Tormohlen of the Northern Arizona Ferret Alliance & Rescue Inc. (NAFAR) wishes that ferrets would not climb cages. "There are the most adroit climbers that insist on scaling the cages in the sanctuary with the ease of a seasoned mountaineer conquering Mount Everest," she said. She has owned ferrets for eight years and opened NAFAR in 2007.
On the Ferrets magazine Facebook page we asked people what they regularly have to stop their ferrets from doing. Climbing things, leaping from things and getting into places they shouldn't were mentioned several times. The main concern is safety, and the frustration is evident in Maureen Howe Henn's response. "Getting behind the dishwasher!" she said. "It drives me crazy. He just doesn't understand that ferrets can't go there."
"Some hide things that we would rather they did not hide," Crandall said, "like my pocketbook for four hours once behind a door, and an $800 pair of back-up eyeglasses."
Allyson Dickinson complained about ferrets stealing her remote control. Melody Collier's ferrets steal her shoes and Kay Link Beason's ferrets steal her underwear and socks. But stealing and stashing isn't always a source of frustration. Tormohlen had a ferret named Nibbles who she said was a notorious hauler. "He could spend an hour tugging and pulling at a giant teddy bear to get it under the couch," she said. "We have had many stashers come through our doors, but none have compared to Nibbles. Though our little 8-year-old Lulu has come close with her crocheted egg collection. We have found as many as three dozen stuffed under the couch."
Crandall said most of her ferrets enjoyed carrying and stashing small, cloth, bell toys. "Some like other things as well," she said. "We have had males, but no females, who love to drag and stash toy ferrets that are much larger than they are. Some take them by their ears but others prefer the toys' tails. Our current males loves to stash my soft sweaters, and they are very hard to drag through the house, especially when the younger female decides that she should be riding on the sweater."
Some Cuddle, Some Don'tFerrets are not generally known to be cuddlers, especially young ferrets. A major dislike of Janette McDonald's ferrets? Being held too long. "They can't stand it," she said. "I have to get my cuddles and kisses in real fast."
Johnson sees both types at her ferret shelter. "Some of the ferrets that are here love to be loved, will allow folks to hold them for hours on end," she said. "and yet their cagemate wants nothing but adventure and where they can find that next adventure."
Ferret Play Versus DestructionThe ferret instinct to explore, burrow and dig can be hard on a home's décor. Crandall had a ferret that loved to climb and found a unique way to get down from the top of curtains or a shelf in a clothes closet. "She would find a place where the curtain or a long dress were, then latch in her claws, let her bum hang, and rip her way downward." Crandall said it was reminiscent of a character in an old pirate movie using a knife on a sail.
More common damage includes digging at carpeting enough to ruin it, scratching a couch, scratching doors and even tunneling into furniture. Amy Fowler said her ferrets climb into a hole they made in her daughter's box spring. "The bad weezils built a fort in there."
Ferrets Being FerretsPossibly the most frustrating ferret behaviors for owners is when ferrets eliminate anywhere outside the litter box or when they bite.
"Why must these little buggers do their business in front of the door, like laying a field of land mines in a military zone in spite of there being a regiment of clean, filled litter boxes within inches of the mine field?" Tormohlen asked.
Amenda Hembree Lobstein said her ferrets poop in every corner of the house and know that they shouldn't. "There are two litter boxes in the bathroom," she said, "and, yes, Snickers and Dane know they are there, because they move the boxes to piddle behind, in front or to either side."
Juaned Nany Cruz-Figueroa chimed in about biting. "I know they are both playing, but sometimes they both bite really hard."
A List Of Likes And DislikesSo far we've looked at things from a person's point of view. But what about ferrets? What do they really like and dislike?
At the top of many ferrets' list of dislikes is probably anything to do with grooming, which includes nail trims and ear cleaning but most especially baths.
"My ferrets hate water unless it is for drinking," said Patricia Shaskin.
Other ferrets don't object to water at all. "Mine hate baths, but love showers!" said Aurora Ashley. "They run to and stand under the shower head, lift up their head, close their eyes, and enjoy their mini waterfall."
Another common dislike involves a health matter. "Mine dislikes medicine, but who doesn't?" said April P. Castelhano.
Certain noises also unnerve ferrets, including squeaky toys for some, the sound of a vacuum and even some unexpected noises like sizzling sounds or, as Karen Pedro found with her ferrets, locational noise. "[They dislike] noises from above, especially gulls." So what are some common things that ferrets like? Well, aside from everything already listed that owners are trying to stop them from doing, add to the list sleeping, playing with crinkle or squeaky toys (yes, some ferrets like squeaky toys), treats, toys, exploring — the list is long and can change day to day or week to week for some ferrets. Games always seem to be a favorite, from chase to playing with balls and more.
"My little guy loves it when you shake a blanket over his head," said Yelena Gertzen. "He leaps and pounces and wrestles the fabric."
And sometimes favorite things aren't just for fun or entertainment. Sheila Rudolph has a blind older ferret that has a unique use for a toy. "She carries her toy in her mouth when she walks around and uses it as a 'bumper' so she doesn't plow into the walls. She is my beauty queen, beautiful and graceful, most of all — incredibly smart! I love our ferrets!"
If your ferret does things you wish it wouldn't or if you're considering getting a ferret, know what you might be getting into. Training can encourage or minimize some behaviors, but training might not work for everything.
"I am of the belief that ferrets will be ferrets; you can't change that fact, so we change how we do things to keep the most adventurous soul out of trouble and getting hurt," Johnson said. "If there is an interest in something that can be harmful and we can do without that something it gets removed from the shelter."
Like this article? Check out the following:The Strange Items That Ferrets Stash, click here>>Life At The Lakeroad Ferret Farm Rescue/Shelter, click here>>A Visit To An Arizona Ferret Rescue, click here>>
Posted: February 27, 2013, 1:15 p.m. EST
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I didn't really expect Tiger Woods to respond to Phil Mickelson's tax rant from Sunday, but when pressed during his interview today, here's how Woods responded: I moved out of here back in '96 for that reason. I enjoy Florida but it was also...I understand what he was I think trying to say. I think he'll probably explain it better in a little bit more detail.
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I'm just a guy who hates Small talk, thanks to audible and a good set of ear buds. Not shopping, not even waiting rooms are a problem.
"Long..... Very long"
It's kinda gross.... In a lot of places. I mean... Do fish guts and flatulence need pages of description ?
Not much
Not really remarkable
No country for old men is much better
"Pretty brilliant"
"You have no right to represent people this way. A man is all men. You have no right to your wretchedness." -Suttree
I enjoyed Blood Meridian more by Cormac McCarthy, but that is merely a tangent for you venture off to...
"Flashbacks are difficult in listening books."
It was just way too confusing to listen to. I think it'd be a tough read.
I will never forget this book and it will leave a lasting impression on me. I will re-read it often.
"Dismal and depressing"
This book makes The Grapes of Wrath look like a giggle and a skip in the park. It's unrelenting hopelessness and vomit inducing descriptions of a homeless, drunk's life is anything but uplifting. I recommend you steer clear if you don't enjoy being depressed.
"McCarthy Brilliant in a Different Genre"
Poe's narration is staggeringly good.
I've been thinking a lot lately about the 'conversation' between Cormac McCarthy and Don DeLillo, two of the great writers we still have. DeLillo, it seems to me reflects on the ways in which we, as contemporary Americans, find ourselves trapped inside our culture. We understand ourselves as in a bubble of our own collective creation, and our implicit sadness (a sadness that rises to tragedy in Underworld) is that we realize we cannot escape it.
As a result, DeLillo's work is at its best when the culture – more specifically the art – at its heart is at its best. Mao II is great because Bill Gray (whose work we never read) feels like a great novelist, a great silenced novelist. White Noise fails for me because the "art" at its center – the parody of academia he calls Hitler Studies – is flimsy and forgettable.
I say that because I see McCarthy arriving at a similar frustration from the other end. He dismisses art and culture almost out of hand. Instead, he calls us to remember that, no matter our accomplishments as a culture, we remain "primates" as much at the mercy of the greater heavens as when we huddled in caves 15 millenia ago. He presents his thesis in every sentence he writes. No matter the story, his subject stays the same. He's like an Old Testament prophet in the clarity of his warning: we are not special in the eyes of creation.
As a consequence, I'm not sure it matters which McCarthy you read. Everything he does has an almost equal excellence. There might as well be a McCarthy Reader, a collection of his greatest sentences and set-scenes. (And it would be a very long collection.)
That's all prologue to saying that Suttree is just as great as virtually everything else I've read by McCarthy (and that's everything he's written in the last 30 years). Very little happens in this portrait of a determined loner, a man who's turned his back on what privilege he has and determines to live by his means, but so what. Very little happens in Seinfeld and very little happens in Flaubert's Un Coeur Simple. And that was the point of each. If you have a gift for exploring tone and the character of a person who is interesting even at rest, then you have all you need.
There are brilliant scenes here, too. In the opening, Suttree is fishing and he reflects on the idea of St. Peter as a "fisher of men." Then, not much later, he sees a police barge that has just dredged up a suicide. He sees the body, a hook lodged through its check, and the metaphor becomes real…and staggering. You can't help asking, "What are we?" What kind of creatures are we if we can die in such a tawdry and undignified way? And the answer is one we simply don't want to hear.
Another brilliant passage comes when he is looking at an album of old photos with his aunt. He looks at the once beautiful faces of people he knows in their old age, and he gets off a passage (I can't find the exact words just now) so staggering that it made my jaw drop, asking what sort of a god would choose flesh like ours as the site of a presumed individuality.
It's blunt, brutal and deeply theological – theological in the oldest sense of the term, in the sense of a lost and dazed creature looking to the sky to make sense of suffering. It's flat-out awe-inspiring work. To take just one example, "I always figured there was a god," says an old man who has extracted from Suttree a promise to burn his body after he dies. "I just never did like him much."
That said, I find myself thinking that part of McCarthy's project is to explore genre with his powerful voice and focused imagination. He came to fame as a writer of "Westerns," in Blood Meridian and the Border Trilogy. That's four novels and 20 years, but it's also only two projects. Since then he has clearly been playing in other genres; The Road is a post-apocalyptic book, and No Country for Old Men is, by narrative structure, a hardboiled noir thriller.
As such, at least in retrospect, I see Suttree as a kind of Southern-flavored Beat novel. Like On the Road, it has no real structure, and it's driven by a perpetual hunger for experience. What's more, that experience sits in opposition to – is subject to the disapproval of – law-abiding and conventional society.
I'm not saying it's merely a Beat novel; it's infused with all of McCarthy's meditations on the primal power of the world and with his exploration of inherited religion to explain it. Still, as I wrap this one up, it seems to me interesting to think of this novel confirming the extent to which McCarthy – with that mythic voice and prophetic focus – needs the structure of genre to tell his take in its entirety.
"Much more to the story than the edited version."
I would listen to more from this Author, the most entertaining human interest story I have ever listened to whether it be fact or fiction, the story is absolutely believable, however the Author does use a lot of descriptive wording, however, I feel it ads to the story.
I can not tag a favorite character in this book, all the characters brought something different and interesting to the story.
Richard Poe is an excellent narrator who changes from Character to Character without missing a beat. I actually thought a few times that there must be more than one narrator, however it was all Richard Poe, there are a couple of errors near the end of the book but they were not misleading. His voice is pleasant to listen to with no outrageous "Over acting".
"The Bum" enter the underworld of the indigent and how they really live (or) If it can go wrong, it will.
Warning: Story takes place in "Old (south) Tennessee, if you are sensitive to certain references you should listen with caution.
"worst book I've ever read. pointless."
too long. no character worthy of empathy. vulgar without art or justification. I couldn't wait for it to end. oh yeah, the naration was fine. professional job, but who cares. don't waste a credit on this title.
"Some like this kind of book, some don't"
I enjoyed this book to a degree. He has fascinating characters but blurs them with his deliberately hard-to-read style. He seems to be saying, "look how good I am with words!" It strikes me as cheap. A successful writer like McCarthy can get work published that would never pass muster if he were a beginner. He seems to be relying too heavily on his descriptive powers, which have a poetic ring even if he is spouting nonsense. You can put a silk scarf on a pig. It will still be a pig, but hey, if you really like silk scarves who cares. I see this as a poor use of his talent. In most cases using obscure words is an attempt to dazzle when the idea being communicated will not fly in common lingo. The reader remembers not because the concept struck him, but because he got to learn a new word. The English lexicon--the largest in the world by a wide margin--is stuffed to the gills with words so rarely used that the language would be better off without them. Truly great writers do not burden readers unnecessarily. If plain language cannot convey a thought, the writer is not working hard enough. McCarthy could have done better.
"Absolute masterpiece. Hilarious, engaging, dark."
I plan on listening to this book again, the vocabulary used by the author is so exceptional at painting visuals in your mind, like no other author I've read.
Like many of the characters written by this author, you feel such empathy and wish good things to happen for them. Each time Suttree seems to find joy, you feel it with him.
Richard Poe brings a talented voice to each character, it adds a dimension to them that accentuates the story. Phenomenal voice work.
Beyond Suttree himself, Gene Harrowgate was my personal favorite. His blundering schemes and shock at his failures had me truly laughing out loud. His was such a naive yet endearing character, you hoped for him to succeed in his madness.
One of the best stories I've listened to in a long, long time. I love Cormac McCarthy, The Road was my introduction to him. The language and range of his vocabulary used in telling his stories are excellent and used so effectively to paint such vivid imagery for the listener that you find yourself immersed so deeply it's as though you're bystander in each scene. I found myself feeling true emotions for the well-being of each character and rejoicing in their successes and mourning their hardships. That to me is the sign of a truly well crafted story.


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Heavy rains before dawn Saturday left baseball fields muddy and unplayable, forcing postponement of all games involving Class 5A and Class 4A Amarillo-area teams.
"I haven't ever seen that much standing water on our field," said 18-year Caprock coach Gerald Nipp. "We'll try it again on Monday."
In District 3-5A, the Lubbock Monterey at Tascosa game was moved from Saturday to Monday at 4:30 p.m. on Rebel Field. Tascosa (11-1 overall, 4-4 in district) has won two games in a row, and a victory against first-place Monterey (18-6, 5-3) would give the Rebels a share of first place.
Amarillo High (14-11, 4-4) was idle Saturday and won't play again until Tuesday. The Sandies lost a 5-4 decision Friday to Lubbock Coronado. AHS has played five one-run games during its eight-game district season.
In District 3-4A, because of Saturday's four postponements, each team will play a four-game schedule this week beginning Monday. The results of those four playing dates will play a major role in determining the three 3-4A playoff teams.
Several key games are on tap Monday in 3-4A. The feature matchup will be first-place and No. 4-ranked Randall (18-5, 8-0) playing host to second-place Canyon (16-6, 6-2) at 4:30 p.m. Randall is scheduled to start pitching phenom Chance Douglass (8-1), one of the top pro prospects in Amarillo history.
Caprock (8-11, 4-4) is scheduled to meet surging Borger (10-10-1, 4-4) at 4:30 p.m. at Longhorn Field. The Rock-Borger winner is guaranteed no worse than a share of third place at the end of Monday. Borger has won three games in a row, while Caprock has dropped its past two games.
Pampa (10-13, 4-4) will travel to Hereford (6-13-1, 1-7) in a 4:30 p.m. game the Harvesters pretty much need to win to keep pace in the playoff race.
The Herd is pretty much in a spoiler's role from here on out.
Rounding out the 3-4A lineup will be Dumas (10-11, 3-5) visiting Palo Duro (5-15, 2-6) at 4:30 p.m.
Both teams will need to get on a serious winning streak the final six games to secure a playoff berth.
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on November 10, 2013 - 12:30 AM
St. John Fisher shut down the Buffalo State running game and Ryan Sweet (East Aurora) caught a pair of touchdown passes from Matt Nation in the Cardinals' 24-6 victory Saturday afternoon at Coyer Field.
The host Bengals were held to 86 net yards rushing and a 2.8 average per attempt. Tailback Rich Pete managed just 32 net yards and a 1.9 average in 17 attempts.
Sweet, a junior wide receiver, had five receptions for 144 yards, which was more than the Bengals managed through the air.
Buffalo State's senior quarterback Casey Kacz completed 14-of-29 passes for 129 yards. He ran for his team's only touchdown on a 3-yard run with 49 seconds left in the game. It capped the only sustained drive, 80 yards, in an otherwise disappointing day for the Bengals.
Kacz (Sweet Home) finished the season completing 189 of 305 for 2,381 yards and 18 touchdowns with 11 interceptions. For his career, he was 459-775 (59.2 percent) for 6,081 yards and 38 touchdowns in three seasons.
Sweet had scoring catches of 44 and 78 yards in the second quarter. The Cardinals drove 99 yards for their final score on a 5-yard run by Cody Miller in the fourth quarter. Nation, making his first collegiate start, was 14 of 23 for 293 yards and the two touchdowns.
St. John Fisher (7-2, 4-2) will play at home against Alfred next Saturday. Buffalo State finished 5-5 overall (3-4 Empire 8 Conference), the third consecutive season with a record of .500 or better. The Bengals' wins came over Cortland, Brockport, Frostburg State, Utica and Hartwick. The other losses came to Wis.-Whitewater, Ithaca, Alfred and Salisbury.


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Basic Feints and Pivots are labeled running??
Dan Rafael and all of the other people saying that Rigo ran are absolutely crazy...I have to do it.....
DONAIRE WAS LOST IN THERE WITH RIGODEUx. Donaire could get surgery on his arm and make it into a damn metal arm and still get almost shut out.
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Yes, yes. Apparently if you aren't blocking punches with your face, you are running.
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It's absolutely ridiculous. All these so called boxing experts don't understand boxing. They think that if you make your opponents miss and don't brawl then your running. It makes me sick to know that the so called experts don't even know what feints and pivots are. ****ing dumbasses.
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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-12-07/Editorial
A digital restoration
During the second half of 2009 the Tropenmuseum of Amsterdam has undertaken a pioneering partnership with WMF Netherlands. The Tropenmuseum is an anthropological museum with a focus on former Dutch colonies. The museum staff collaborated with Wikimedian volunteers to hold a physical space exhibit about the cultural history of Suriname. President Ronald Venetiaan of Suriname attended the exhibit. More recently the Tropenmuseum donated 35,000 images about Indonesia to Wikimedia Commons.
Late last month Gerard Meijssen of Open Progress asked me to look at one of the Tropenmuseum's first Indonesian uploads. Open Progress is a nonprofit that improves access to online information for people from developing countries. There wasn't much to see in that first file: 700 × 544 pixels, 92 KB. The sort of restoration work I do usually starts with a TIFF format file of at least 10MB. A very tight crop and damaged edges made it less than ideal to work with. Yet it was a rare type of image: a megalith that was being transported by human beings without motor vehicles or draft animals.
A few days later Gerard provided a 25 MB TIFF version and said that the museum staff had gotten a professional photographer to redigitize at high resolution, and I gave it my best shot. It's rare for a museum to share its resources this openly; our hope is to make the collaboration successful so that other institutions will follow the Tropenmuseum's example. So this is a digital survey of that restoration project, which took about 18 hours to complete.
This photograph was taken circa 1915 on the island of Nias. Reportedly, 525 people spent three days transporting the stone and erecting it in the village of Bawemataloeo to honor the passing of an important man.
There was very little room to crop left and right, and no room at all to crop top or bottom. So only a small part of the most severe damage could be removed that way; the rest would have to be restored or reconstructed. A face at left and a shoulder at right made the most viable compromise points for these crops.
Dirt and scratch removal
After cropping, this restoration went through several manual passes to remove dirt and scratches. I worked at 200% resolution and began with the smallest and simplest marks. Later passes recreated faces, musculature, and other complex structures. This work used the Photoshop healing tool at 100% hardness and clone stamp at 35% hardness. A free software program called GIMP has similar capabilities.
Correcting for physical retouching
Before the days of digital editing someone had attempted a physical restoration on this print. Fading lines were inked in with black at the lower right quadrant of the photograph. At any sort of high resolution the effect is crude. In the example above it turns up as dark vertical lines that look like pen marks. This sort of alteration was performed some time during the early to mid-twentieth century.
Digital restoration on these features involved replacing the black marks with credible shapes and textures. The earlier attempt at physical restoration was occasionally useful for indicating features and contours, but generally created more difficulties than it solved.
The "before" half on this portion of the work is a good example of why some people are skeptical about physical restoration. Physical restoration has been known to damage rare historic material. One advantage of digital restoration is that it is nonintrusive.
Severe staining and fading
One of the most heavily damaged portions was the lower left corner. At left a man's hand remains visible. Context and comparison against other parts of the image suggest that the obstructed features include a log, a loincloth, and a thigh. I retained as much actual detail as possible and patched the rest.
The edges of this image were heavily faded. A large number of incremental adjustments were necessary to correct for uneven fading. In this closeup the man's hand changes brightness abruptly at his wrist and continues lightening until his fingertip appears nearly white. Good digital editing software can mask out parts of an image and apply changes locally. Successive masks darkened the hand and fingertips until they were compatible with the undamaged forearm. Finally a mask adjustment reduced contrast on the hand because its shaded areas had become nearly black. Both the contours and the shadows needed to harmonize in context.
Overall, about half the time of this restoration was spent on mask adjustments.
Restoring stone texture
The final edit was a relatively easy one. In order to recover texture on the overexposed surface I used the Photoshop shadow/highlight tool. The adjustment enhanced contrast in highlights while making minimal changes to midtones and dark areas.
The big picture
My aim was to use digital editing software like a time machine. As far as possible, I wanted to eliminate old, dead, unimportant from the viewer's first reaction so that attention is drawn to the subject. Diverse cultures from Ireland to Easter Island have constructed megaliths. Nias is one of the few places that retained a megalithic culture into the twentieth century.
The edits performed in process are documented in detail at the image hosting page along with cross links between restored and unrestored versions. Also an uncompressed partial restoration is available in TIFF format so that, in the spirit of wiki collaboration, anyone who wants to improve on the work has access to a version where the histogram has not been altered. Anyone who prefers the unaltered file has easy access to view it.
The longer-term plan is to scale up this endeavor by partnering with art schools. Instructors like to offer assignments that have real world significance. By developing more collaborative projects between WMF chapters, the Tropenmuseum, and other institutions the best student work could be exhibited in major museums. High quality digital restoration provides a motivating factor for cultural institutions to partner with WMF, which can yield large volume media donations of tens or hundreds of thousands of images.
And if we had 100 people each doing two restorations a week, Wikipedia could gain 10,000 featured pictures in one year.
Fascinating! — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 07:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
In the editorial, "this fall"? Tut tut tut. You should remember that in the UK it is autumn, and in Australasia it is spring. Tut, tut, tut.
I've seen this a few times lately on several pages, and can only guess it's because of the time of year – it's not a slip I often see as I gnome around. Stil, tut, tut, tut.
(There's another typo somewhere but I'm not that picky.)
Best wishes. Si Trew (talk) 08:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- As a Brit, to be fair, there's not really a workaround for that, except fall/autumn/spring (delete as appropriate) .... GARDEN 11:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- As an Englishman, I seem to recall WP:SEASON. Best wishes, I know this is very picky. Great job and very interesting article. Si Trew (talk) 14:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- The North American bias was unintentional; have removed it. Thank you for the heads up. :) Durova375 17:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- This type of thing happens quite a lot. Many US textbooks on the Vietnam War talk about the Tet Offensive being in Winter when it is 90 F and so forth YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 22:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- The North American bias was unintentional; have removed it. Thank you for the heads up. :) Durova375 17:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- As an Englishman, I seem to recall WP:SEASON. Best wishes, I know this is very picky. Great job and very interesting article. Si Trew (talk) 14:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Which software did you used. I think you have done a good job with it.--yousaf465' 08:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you; used Photoshop. Other editors have gotten similar results from a free program called GIMP. The tool settings in Photoshop allow finer control so certain work moves faster in that program. Durova375 17:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I am always amazed at the skill and patience of those who do restorations like this -- I can do simple stuff, but this is outstanding! – ukexpat (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC) As ever, I am in stunned amazement at what experts can do to preserve art for future generations. And these are volunteers! Thank you for the hard work that went into this. ---- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 19:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- I concur. I added my little pickiness probably because I had my gnoming head on, but really enjozed reading about it, and the whole project. I do hope my little pickiness did not distract from that but emphasised it, since usually when I am taking the *, I am taking it out of myself more than anyone else. A fantastic contribution, and a great editorial. Si Trew (talk) 20:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
"Before the days of digital editing someone had attempted a physical restoration on this print. Fading lines were inked in with black at the lower right quadrant of the photograph. " This procedure is very unlikely to have been done for restoration purposes. Inked-in black lines were usually done to increase the visible contrast between adjoining low-contrast parts of a photograph prior to it being used as an book or magazine illustration. So it has been done by a printer, not a would-be restorer. Meowy 17:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Excellent work Durova and a fascinating article. --bodnotbod (talk) 19:59, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


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The legend of the new synthetic surface - Field Turf - at Dick Bivins Stadium reached all the way to Super Bowl XXXIII in Miami.
Fifty yards of Field Turf was put in place near Miami's Pro Player Stadium this past week, mainly because of the dramatic decrease of injuries during 19 high school games played last fall at Dick Bivins Stadium on the new surface.
The reason? To let NFL players work out on Field Turf, and to let NFL management consider Field Turf as a replacement for their current turf.
Dr. Bill Barnhill, an Amarillo surgeon with Panhandle Sports Medicine, joined representatives from the Panhandle-based Vibra-Whirl company at the Super Bowl site this past week answering questions about Field Turf.
The Amarillo Independent School District spent $518,000 for the new surface, which Vibra-Whirl put in place last summer and made Dick Bivins only the second football field in the nation using the turf, which looks like grass from a distance.
The Amarillo Chamber of Commerce said at a news conference earlier this month that the new turf has meant more than $2 million to the Amarillo economy because of several football playoff games and a regional band contest that were hosted.
Barnhill said the field will also save the AISD an "enormous amount of money from a medical standpoint" because of the safety factor.
"We've learned some exciting stuff," Barnhill said. "I think we have the prototype surface of what will occur."
Data compiled by AISD trainers Robert Valouche (Palo Duro), Larry Thom (Tascosa), Bruce King (Amarillo High) and Shawn Erton (Caprock) were to sent John W. Powell in Iowa.
Powell is considered the "guru of injury analysis in the United States," Barnhill said. Powell works directly with the NFL and the National Hockey League.
What Powell's data confirmed is that during the 1998 season, football games played at Dick Bivins Stadium showed a significant decrease in the number of injuries than those same teams suffered while playing on grass surface.
For instance, combined game-related injury rates per 10 games suffered by the four AISD football teams dropped from 82.6 percent on grass to 35.5 percent on Field Turf.
Barnhill said there were many significant factors why Field Turf could some day become a common sight at the high school, college and NFL level.
Shoe surface interface - "in laymen's terms, it's called foot lock," Barnhill said. "That's when the foot gets stuck in the turf and doesn't release, something has to give. That's where a lot of injuries occur. The turf at Dick Bivins tested like perfect grass in the best condition in this case."
"When astro-turf gets wet, it changes the way it plays a bunch," Barnhill said. "Rain doesn't change Field Turf that much. Plus, the field holds up so much better."
Powell broke down the injuries into major (missing more than 21 days), moderate (out for eight to 21 days) and minor (up to seven days lost). Sticking with the injury rate per 10 games, the most significant change from the grass to Field Turf occurred in major injuries dropping from 16.8 percent to 1.8 percent.
"This is because of what I call the absorption phenomenon," Barnhill said. "This new turf absorbs impact, and because of this absorption, characteristics prevented a lot of injuries I wasn't predicting. ... bottom line is, the incidents were 2.3 times greater on natural grass compared to field turf. That's strong information."
Barnhill said "over usage" is a non-factor with Field Turf. Natural grass fields may start out a season in a good shape but over time deteriorate.
Barnhill said rarely would he become inspired by one year of data, and the study will continue to increase the data base.
However, since the only variable being changed when the AISD schools played past fall was the playing surface, "I would never have thought we would see in one year numbers that reached statistical significance," Barnhill added. "And we did."
And that's why a season of football games at Dick Bivins Stadium proved to be much safer for the athletes than games played on other surfaces, and played a role in Field Turf making a 50-yard appearance at today's Super Bowl.
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Pelco PEL-CM9760CCC Computer Chargeover Control
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The Pelco CM9760-CCC is a computer changeover switch designed to switch control from an inactive 9700 series CC1 (central processing unit) to an active CC1. At the event of the first CC1 failing to operate, an alarm will sound, triggering this unit to automatically transfer control to a standby CC1. All devices that were originally controlled by the first CC1 will now be controlled by the standby CC1, ensuring uninterrupted operation. This unit ships with rack ears for installation in a standard 19" rack. Specifications: Connectors: RS-422: RJ-45 x2 (female) RS-232: DB9 x2 (female) Common Bus: DB37 x2 female (1 in, 1 out) Logging Printer: DB-25 x1 (female) Body Construction: Aluminum Finish Black polyester powder coat Mounting Fits standard 19" rack (1 RU wide x 1 RU high) Electrical: Power Connector: 3-wire, 18 AWG Input Voltage: 120-240 VAC (auto-ranging) Power Consumption: 30 VA Fusing: 2A, fast acting Power Indicator: LED, green Dimensions (WxHxD): 19 x 1.8 x 7.9" (44.2 x 4.5 x 20.1 cm) Weight: 5.87 lbs (2.6 kg)


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The Opening proved LSU has much to look forward to in the near future.
Only the best high school prospects are invited to The Opening, the most coveted preseason camp in Beaverton, Oregon. Luckily enough for the Tigers, they are in the running for numerous players who competed.
The biggest news from the The Opening was arguably the re-commitment of 4-star cornerback Xavier Lewis. Lewis gave his original vow to the Tigers last August but de-committed in February, per The Advocate.
Lewis' decision now gives LSU 13 commitments in the 2015 class, four of whom competed in The Opening. The Tigers now rank No. 10 on 247Sports' Recruiting Team Ranking, which is good for sixth in the SEC.
There were plenty of other LSU targets that competed as well, some of whom Les Miles would love to see commit to the Tigers.
Top Targets
LSU, like many other elite programs, is hoping to bring in elite 5-star recruits. The nation's No. 1 defensive end Josh Sweat and offensive tackle Martez Ivey both turned heads. No defensive end came close to Sweat's amazing SPARQ score, while Ivey was voted the offensive-line MVP.
Josh Sweat and Martez Ivey going head to head. Nothing sounds more like football than when the pads are bac... https://t.co/Z8UGshQHHr— The Opening (@TheOpening2014) July 10, 2014
LSU will probably not land Sweat or Ivey, but the two are on Miles' radar. Other 5-star hopefuls who shined include Malik Jefferson, Iman Marshall and Torrance Gibson.
The most likely 5-star commitment for LSU will be Tyron Johnson. There were few receivers, if any, better than Johnson in The Opening's seven-on-seven tournament. He, alongside quarterback and USC commit Ricky Town, carried the Land Sharks team to the finals.
One of the most fascinating prospects was Johnson's fellow New Orleans playmaker Deonte Jackson. The 5'11'' Jackson played impressively on both sides of the ball, earning a spot on 247Sports' Barton Simmons' "Opening Dream Team." Simmons said Jackson was a candidate for the overall MVP.
LSU's Top Commitments
The future "Defensive Back University" looks pretty bright with the performances of Lewis and Kevin Toliver II. They both picked off multiple interceptions in the seven-on-seven tournament and looked fluid in all drills.
LSU offensive tackle Maea Teuhema was measured at 6'5'', 340 pounds per ESPN's Gerry Hamilton. But Teuhema did not compete in the one-on-one drills, which was a big opportunity for him to show off his skills against other elite prospects.
Nick Brossette was LSU's lone offensive skill-position commit to compete at The Opening. Brossette showed off his catching ability coming out of the backfield but will be remembered for his slick move against Tennessee commit Cecil Cherry.
LSU commit Nick Brossette shakes Vols commit Cecil Cherry https://t.co/g0d07ygeR3— Barton Simmons (@bartonsimmons) July 8, 2014
The overall talent in the state of Louisiana is down after 2014's historic crop, but that doesn't mean there aren't difference-makers throughout The Boot.
Which player would be the biggest commitment for LSU?
Lewis proved this weekend that he has phenomenal playmaking ability. He plays his high school football at East St. John, the same school that produced Ryan Perrilloux, but his name gets lost in the elite cornerback class of 2015.
If uncommitted prospects Johnson, Jackson and Destrehan, Louisiana's Kirk Merritt join the Tigers, expect LSU to rise dramatically in the team rankings. Merritt was the surprise winner of the SPARQ title and can play both running back and receiver.
*Rankings and additional recruiting information provided by247Sports.com. Follow me on Twitter @CarterthePower.


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