text:
Ambulatory EEG
- Author: Elizabeth J Waterhouse, MD, FAAN; Chief Editor: Selim R Benbadis, MD more...
Ambulatory electroencephalography (AEEG) monitoring is a relatively recent technology that allows prolonged electroencephalographic (EEG) recording in the home setting.[1] Its ability to record continuously for up to 72 hours increases the chance of recording an ictal event or interictal epileptiform discharges. AEEG is a less expensive alternative to inpatient monitoring, with costs that are 51-65% lower than a 24-hour inpatient admission for video/EEG monitoring.[2]
Continuous cardiac monitoring was first described by Holter in 1961.[3] The development of portable EEG recording proved more problematic than the Holter monitor because of the need for signal amplification and multichannel recording. A multichannel portable recorder was developed in the early 1970s. This technology was later adapted to EEG recording, and miniature preamplifiers that could be worn on the head were developed.[4, 5]
Early clinical investigations documented the ability of AEEG to record identifiable focal and generalized epileptiform activity.[6, 7] In 1982, Ives introduced a 16-channel AEEG that utilized signal multiplexing.[8] The 16 channels allowed improved spatial resolution and localization but recorded discrete samples rather than continuous EEG.
In 1983, a cassette tape AEEG system was introduced; it used off-head preamplifiers that had continuous 8-channel recording capability, real-time identification, and gain and filter adjustments.[9, 10, 11, 12]
In the past decade, computer technology has enabled portable recording of up to 36 channels with sampling rates of up to 400 Hz. Currently, numerous AEEG systems are available commercially (see the image below).
AEEG has several important clinical applications.[13, 14, 15, 16, 17] Depending on the clinical suspicion, other diagnostic tests (eg, ambulatory cardiac monitoring, polysomnography [PSG] or inpatient video/EEG monitoring[18, 19] ) may be more appropriate in a given situation.
Confirmation of clinical suspicion of epilepsy
A clinical suspicion of epilepsy can be confirmed by recording a seizure on AEEG.[20, 21] This is most likely to occur when the patient is experiencing daily or almost daily spells. Studies looking at the diagnostic yield of AEEG indicate that 6-15% of AEEGs record seizures.
Higher yields have been reported from 16-channel AEEG with computer-assisted seizure detection than from older 4- or 8-channel systems without seizure-detection algorithms.[22, 23, 24, 25] A 2001 study in which 502 patients were evaluated with computer-assisted 16-channel AEEG demonstrated that 8.5% of patients had a seizure during the recording period (mean, 28.5 h).[26]
In patients with intractable epilepsy, AEEG has been used to localize seizure onset as part of presurgical evaluation.[27] However, inpatient video/EEG monitoring remains the standard for presurgical evaluation.
Evaluation of interictal epileptiform activity
Detection of interictal epileptiform abnormalities in the absence of recorded seizures can provide supporting evidence for a clinical diagnosis of epilepsy.
Studies have demonstrated that 34.9% of patients with known seizures had a positive AEEG, whereas 15.3% of 216 patients in whom the diagnosis of seizures was considered (ie, patients with episodic alterations of behavior, perception, sensation, or motor functioning) had interictal epileptiform abnormalities on 4-channel AEEG. When a 16-channel recorder was used, 38% of patients who were referred for AEEG had some type of epileptiform abnormality.
AEEG is highly specific; spikes were found on overnight AEEG in only 0.7% of asymptomatic adults without a history of migraine or a family history of epilepsy.[28] In patients with a history of migraine headaches and those with a family history of epilepsy, the incidence of spikes on AEEG was 12.5% and 13.3%, respectively.
Some patients in whom epilepsy is suspected have a normal routine or sleep-deprived EEG. In these patients, AEEG can increase the chance of detecting an epileptiform abnormality. Of patients who previously had normal or nondiagnostic routine EEG, 12-25% have epileptiform activity on AEEG.
A study comparing the usefulness of sleep-deprived EEG and computer-assisted 16-channel AEEG in patients with suspected epilepsy (but a nondiagnostic initial routine EEG) found that sleep-deprived EEG improved detection of epileptiform discharges by 24%, whereas AEEG improved detection by 33%.[29] Of the 46 patients studied, 15% had actual seizures recorded on AEEG, and none had seizures during the sleep-deprived recording.
Patients may have epilepsy without interictal epileptiform abnormalities on EEG, but this occurs in fewer than 20% of patients. In a study using a 4-channel recording system, 3 patients had only seizures recorded without interictal abnormalities. AEEG with 16 or more channels increases the probability that interictal epileptiform abnormalities will be found.
Documentation of seizures of which patients are unaware
For a patient to have seizures and yet be unaware of them is not uncommon.[30, 31] Brief alterations of awareness occur in both absence and complex partial seizures. AEEG is helpful at identifying seizures that are unrecognized or unreported by the patient.
Absence seizures may be so brief that the patient is unaware of them. A study using AEEG to evaluate absence seizures in pediatric patients found that most paroxysms of generalized spike and wave discharges (see the image below) were asymptomatic.[32]
Patients with complex partial epilepsy are often amnestic for their seizures. The sequelae of a nocturnal generalized convulsive seizure, if present at all, may be so subtle (eg, fatigue, muscle soreness) that the patient is unsure whether a seizure actually occurred.
A study of patients in an epilepsy monitoring unit found that 63% of all seizures were unrecognized by the patients. This difficulty in identifying the occurrence of seizures impedes seizure diagnosis and assessment of treatment adequacy.
Liporace et al found that the AEEGs of 3 patients (of 46) demonstrated seizures that were not designated as events by the patients.[29] Tatum et al found that more than one third of AEEGs with ictal activity contained at least one seizure that was unreported by the patient.[26] These studies demonstrate the utility of AEEG at capturing unsuspected events.
Evaluation of response to therapy
Because a significant number of patients are unaware of their seizures, responses to treatment are frequently difficult to gauge. Patients with mental retardation or other forms of encephalopathy may be unable to report seizures accurately. In such cases, AEEG can have a significant impact on clinical management.
AEEG is particularly useful in quantitating response to the treatment of absence seizures. If untreated, such seizures typically occur numerous times per day; adequate treatment usually normalizes the EEG.
Evaluation of nocturnal or sleep-related events
Certain diagnoses are difficult to confirm with the typical 20-minute outpatient EEG. The interictal epileptiform discharges of benign rolandic epilepsy, for example, are highly activated by sleep and may not always be achieved adequately in a laboratory. Continuous spike and wave activity during slow-wave sleep is another entity that may demonstrate a relatively normal EEG during waking hours and a strikingly abnormal EEG during deep sleep.
Because of its capacity to record an entire night of sleep, AEEG is invaluable in assessing these clinical situations. Another advantage is that children can be monitored at home.[33]
If a nonepileptic sleep disorder is suspected, PSG is the preferred study because of the added information from monitoring electromyography (EMG), eye movements, electrocardiography (ECG), and respiration.
The history may not differentiate clearly between a sleep disorder and epilepsy. AEEG may record frequent arousals (suggesting sleep apnea) or decreased rapid eye movement (REM) sleep latency (suggesting narcolepsy). In a study of 500 patients who had AEEG, narcolepsy was suggested in 6 patients, including 3 in whom narcolepsy had not been suspected.
Evaluation of suspected pseudoseizures
Pseudoseizures, also known as psychogenic seizures or nonepileptic events,[34] are clinical events in which patients perceive altered movement, emotion, sensation, or experience similar to those due to epilepsy but without an electrographic ictal correlate.[35, 36, 37, 38]
Pseudoseizures are surprisingly frequent, occurring in as many as 20% of patients at epilepsy referral centers and in 5-20% of outpatient populations. Some patients have both pseudoseizures and epileptic seizures; coincident events occur in an estimated 10-60% of epilepsy patients.
AEEG can be a useful screening tool in identifying patients who have nonepileptic paroxysmal events. In one study, 36% of patients had event marker activations without associated electrographic changes.
Potential problems exist in using AEEG to definitively diagnose nonepileptic seizures. A 24-hour recording without associated video does not allow evaluation of clinical stereotypy, which is valuable when evaluating patients with unusual seizure manifestations and minimal EEG changes. Scalp EEG may not show electrographic ictal abnormality during some frontal lobe seizures or may show only subtle abnormalities that would be difficult to interpret without associated video.
Kanner et al found that 25% of their group of 12 patients with supplementary motor seizures demonstrated no electrographic ictal pattern during seizures.[39]
Seizures and nonepileptic seizures may be associated with movement and muscle artifact that may obscure the underlying EEG. Although AEEG may be a useful initial screening tool for nonepileptic events, inpatient video/EEG monitoring remains the criterion standard in evaluating nonepileptic seizures.
Evaluation of syncope
AEEG may be helpful in evaluating syncope or near-syncope if an ECG lead replaces 1 of the EEG channels.[40] If cardiogenic syncope is suspected, a Holter monitor or prolonged cardiac event monitor may be more useful clinically. Although arrhythmias have been diagnosed with continuous ambulatory EEG/ECG recording, a study of epileptiform abnormalities in AEEG found that only 1 of 67 patients with syncope, near-syncope, or episodic dizziness had an epileptiform abnormality.
Future applications
Seizure anticipation methods are under development to identify EEG changes before seizure onset, allowing ongoing assessment of the probability of seizure occurrence.[41, 42, 43, 44, 35, 45, 46, 47, 48] With further characterization of EEG changes in the preictal state, future AEEG recording may be coupled with a seizure anticipation device, providing a time window within which therapeutic intervention may prevent a seizure.
Disk electrodes should be applied with collodion to ensure stability during the 24-hour recording period. Electrode gel may have to be reapplied by syringe beneath the electrodes. The patient's scalp may be wrapped in gauze and the lead wires gathered and tacked to reduce traction on the electrodes (see the image below). New batteries should be provided every 24 hours.
Calibration is recorded using a 50-µV square wave or pulse; each electrode should be tapped sequentially. This part of the recording should be reviewed while the patient is in the laboratory to verify the integrity of the system and the appropriate connection of electrode leads to the preamplifier.
Patients should be instructed to record activity in a diary. Documenting physiologic artifacts, such as eye movements, chewing, speaking, and swallowing, is useful. Patients should not chew gum, which could produce a prolonged artifact. In addition, they should not bathe with the device.
When the patient returns to the laboratory for removal of the device, the end of the recording should be reviewed to ensure that signal recording was maintained.
In the past, when 4- and 8-channel AEEG was in use, montage design was of paramount importance in capturing and attempting to localize a suspected discharge.[49] Because abnormalities were recorded most often in the anterior temporal regions and frequently in the frontal regions, montages were designed to optimize coverage of these regions and to maximize yield.
With the newer digital 16- to 36-channel AEEG systems, standard EEG montages are usually adequate, since digital reformatting is always an option. Additional electrodes at T1/T2, zygomatic, and sphenoidal locations may allow more specific localization.
Review of Recordings
Because AEEG records a vast amount of data, scanning techniques are necessary to decrease review time. Cassette 8-channel systems allow scanning at speeds of 20, 40, and 60×. They also allow audio output monitoring. Although isolated, single discharges may be difficult to perceive at these speeds, seizures are less likely to be missed, because of the longer on-screen time, the ability to recognize of rhythmic or evolving patterns, and the presence of rhythmic audio bursts (usually of declining frequency).
Review of a 24-hour digital study would be prohibitively time-consuming without the benefit of computer-aided analysis. Newer digital AEEG models reduce reviewing time by means of sampling (which risks missing infrequent discharges) and automated spike and seizure detection programs. Pioneered by Gotman, these computer techniques identify epileptiform discharges on the basis of changes in amplitude, frequency, and rhythmicity.[50, 51, 52, 53]
Further refinements have reduced the incidence of false positives due to physiological artifacts and sleep patterns. Neural network modeling techniques may offer additional advantages in the future.
Because AEEG is done outside the controlled confines of the EEG laboratory and while the patient performs customary daily activities, it is susceptible to a variety of physiologic and environmental artifacts. Such artifacts may be difficult to recognize in AEEG, especially if a limited number of channels are in use.
Artifacts from sustained blinking, chewing, or movement may obscure the underlying EEG. Additionally, rhythmic artifacts due to repetitive activities (eg, teeth brushing, scratching, or bicycle pedaling) may mimic seizure activity. Ideally, the patient diary will document these occurrences. Judicious use of filters, gain, and reformatting may further clarify these waveforms and assist in distinguishing seizure activity from artifact.
Electroencephalographic seizures usually demonstrate evolution of amplitude and frequency, may spread to involve neighboring electrodes, and may be followed by postictal slowing or suppression. If doubt exists as to whether a discharge is artifactual or epileptic, a conservative interpretation should be followed.
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Ask a question about Ambulatory EEG: Consult with other physicians on Medscape Consult


text: FILE - In this Oct. 3, 2013 file photo, St. Louis Cardinals' Carlos Beltran follows through on a three-run home run against the Pittsburgh Pirates in the third inning of Game 1 of baseball's National League division series, in St. Louis. Beltran and the New York Yankees have finalized a $45 million, three-year contract. The agreement, reached Dec. 6, was announced by the team Thursday, Dec. 19, 2013. (AP Photo/Jeff Roberson, File)

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The Obama Campaigns Credit-Card Crack-up
The campaign of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has been and may still be accepting credit-card and prepaid-card contributions from overseas. It has done so in a way that may very likely prevent it from refunding the contributions to donors, many of whom may have had their credit cards used without their consent. Its virtually impossible that the system for accepting card contributions was inadvertently set up without adequate controls, and almost certain that existing controls were instead deliberately disabled to create untraceability. Finally, it is likely that the total dollar amounts involved run in millions, if not tens of millions, of dollars.
And the comments include this very interesting item:
Hillary brought up the same complaints about the Obama contribution schemes when she was running against him. In that instance they found many $2K contributions from non-English speaking Chinese working at a laundromat. And the MSM brushed it aside as they do now.
There were jillions of intentional, fraudulent campaign donations:
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Dotcommies work hard, live simple
We may imagine him to be young, inexperienced, and money-hungry, but the average dotcom leader is in fact approaching 40, and a workaholic willing to...
We may imagine him to be young, inexperienced, and money-hungry, but the average dotcom leader is in fact approaching 40, and a workaholic willing to sacrifice corporate perks and his social life in order to build a successful e-business.
This image of a typical dotcom boss was revealed recently by business consultancy firm, KPMG after it compared executives in new technology and traditional companies for its 'e-Business Leaders Survey 2000' report.
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According to the findings, the average e-business leader is aged 38, while his traditional counterpart is about 46.
Both executives put in long hours at the office, but dotcom leaders clock up the most overtime, with one in five respondents working more than 70 hours a week. E-bosses are also less likely to have their own office or PA, and tend to travel economy or with "no frills" airlines. In addition, one in seven does not expect to retire until he reaches his seventies, says the report.
"Despite the well-publicised failures of some dotcoms recently, it would be a mistake to underestimate them," warns Alan Buckle, chief executive of KPMG Consulting UK. "This survey shows that dotcom leaders have huge energy, drive and understanding of how the internet is already changing business. Traditional leaders have a lot to learn from this new generation and ignore them at their peril."
Other key findings of the report reveal that despite their casual image, 88 per cent of dotcom respondents prefer formal dress for business meetings.
Dotcom leaders are less likely than their 'old economy' counterparts to have a university degree (66 per cent compared to 84 per cent) and tend to have a background in IT or marketing rather than in finance.
They also admire Richard Branson and dream of being a pilot or formula one racing car driver, while the majority of the traditional executives interviewed favour Bill Gates and would choose to be a doctor or author if given an alternative career.
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Size: Extra Small (Small, Medium, Large, Extra Large)
Yarn Requirements: 1 skein Malabrigo Worsted
Needles: US Size 7 16" circular and double pointed needles
Gauge: 5sts = 1" in St st, unblocked


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New York, NYUSA
April 8, 2014
At least since I was 10 years old. When my parents got divorced it was exacerbated.
Putting gold stars on my calendar every day that I don't pick, and setting goals for number of days in a row that I can avoid doing it. Staying busy. Going to the bathroom with the light off so I can't look in the mirror. Finally, trying to reduce stress in positive ways.
No thanks!
Sharing advice and experiences in a safe, positive environment. Meeting people who understand what I'm going through, because it's something I can't really talk about with anyone, and it weighs on me every day.
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Unfortunately, no more cockpit visits are allowed at Cathay. It was inevitable in light of the recent events, and provides a little extra security, and I stress little.
Upon the commanders discretion, the cockpit door may also be locked.
Hopefully this is not permanent, but it would not surprise me if it was.


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No scheduled events today305 No scheduled events today 2016-09-24 2016-09-25 #ff8400 1
YLOA on TwitterTweets by @ylp_hoa
YLP's women of watercolor
Sierra Art Trails, the mountain area's premier display of works by local artists and artisans, is under way. This year, three watercolor artists who live in YLP will, as part of its Open Studio Tour, show and offer for sale their paintings at the YLOA Clubhouse. They will be showing 10 a.m.-6 p.m. each day Friday, Sept. 30, Saturday, Oct. 1, and Sunday, Oct. 2. Find out what inspires them and see some of their work in our YLP Spotlight.
****** Community Notification *****
Work is set to begin on Monday September 26,2016
MAINLINE REPLACEMENT PROJECT 2016/2017-02-15 – approx. 1800 L.F. of Main Line Replacement along Titan Drive and Titan Court. And, approx. 1200 L.F. of Main Line along Holiday Drive and Holiday Way
To The Residents of Titan Dr, Titan Ct, Holiday Dr and Holiday Way:
The Yosemite Lakes Owner's Association (YLOA) and the Yosemite Spring Park Utility Company (YSPUC) will soon begin a mainline replacement on your street.
As you have seen for the past few weeks, construction stakes have been placed along Titan Dr from Corral Dr to a point shortly past Holiday Dr and on Holiday Dr from Titan Dr to and including Holiday Way. Likewise, buried telephone and electric lines have been marked. We have already begun moving material and equipment into the area. Shortly, we will begin grinding asphalt along the new pipe trench line and we are already working on potholing for buried utilities. As soon as this work is complete we will begin trenching.
Construction of this project may cause inconveniences for our residents and travelers in the project area. Please understand that while we are working, traffic will be limited to sharing one lane in the immediate construction zone. This lane may be blocked at times with dirt while trenching or machinery performing other tasks. We will endeavor to clear the lane and provide for your passage as quickly as possible but understand that the lane may be blocked for up to 15 minutes.
Each time we have to pass a vehicle through the immediate construction area it stops construction progress on the project for 15 to 20 minutes. Therefore, we request and appreciate that whenever possible during this construction you limit the number of daily trips in and out of Titan Dr and Holiday Dr. By reducing the amount of through-traffic and related work stoppages, we will expedite and complete the project with the least amount of inconvenience for our residents and guests.
While this project will produce inconveniences and possible frustration for our some members of our community, we believe that our community appreciates the benefits these line replacements provide. This section of pipeline has failed many times in the past several years. With each line failure in this area a large portion of YLP is affected. Once we complete installation of this new pipeline we will be able provide more assurance that the pipeline on the above noted streets will no longer fail, thus reducing the number of frustrating disruptions, loss of water and costly roadway and property repairs.
Please note that our plan includes the asphaltic repaving of the project trench line in short order upon the conclusion of the pipeline installation and inspection efforts.
Should you have any concerns during this project please feel free to contact our office. We will do our best to minimize your concerns. We thank you in advance for your patience during this construction project and ask that you remain alert while driving and reduce your speed when traveling through this, or any other construction zone.
Layton Gillette,
YLOA General Manager
Kenneth Harrington,
YSPUC Manager & Operator of Record


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Skip to comments.Evolution debate persists because it's not science
Posted on 02/22/2009 10:58:04 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
click here to read article
As to what standard is used in this trial and error it is known in biology as "differential reproductive success". A favored variation will have leave more offspring than a unfavorable variation.
This is what is observed in countless experiments on the ability of natural selection to shape experimental populations. If you turn up the heat on a population, those variations amenable to high heat have more offspring.
What "works" in nature is surviving and reproducing.
What "doesn't work" is dying before you reproduce, having sickly or few offspring, etc.
Detection of "purpose" is beyond the scope of science.
If I lose at cards then I see it as God's will.
An atheist may well see it as just random bad luck.
There is no scientific way to differentiate or discern between these two views.
Yes. Beautifully said dear brother in Christ!
Yet your beautiful insight is no help (nor consolation) to our Darwinist brethren, I feel pretty sure. For most of them, it seems, don't mind that their dear theory not only cannot account for the origin of life, but that it's also stupified by the problem of the origin of consciousness, not even to mention spirit (the existence of which many categorically deny in the first place). So one has to ask: As a fundamental theory of biology of living, sentient life forms what does it really have to offer?
To me, Darwin's theory is not without merit. The problem with it is it overreaches. My sense is it has solid insights in terms of dynamic intra-species response to environmental change. This is within the domain of microevolution. To extrapolate from the micro- to the macroevolution seems an unwarranted step. It uses the "part" to explain the "whole." Generally speaking, this is rarely if ever a fruitful procedure.
To my scientist friends, a message from George Gilder:
Throughout the history of human thought, it has been convenient and inspirational to designate the summit of the hierarchy as God. While it is not necessary for science to use this term, it is important for scientists to grasp the hierarchical reality it signifies. Transcending its materialist trap, science must look up from the ever dimmer reaches of its Darwinian pit and cast its imagination toward the word and its sources: idea and meaning, mind and mystery, the will and the way. It must eschew reductionism except as a methodological tool and adopt an aspirational imagination. Though this new aim may seem blinding at first, it is ultimately redemptive because it is the only way that science can ever hope to solve the grand challenge problems before it, such as gravity, entanglement, quantum computing, time, space, mass, and mind. Accepting hierarchy, the explorer embarks on an adventure that leads to an ever deeper understanding of life and consciousness, cosmos and creation. "Evolution and Me," National Review, July 17, 2006Thank you ever so much for your beautiful, insightful essay/post xzins!
If so then you believe that "microevolution" takes place with a strength and at a speed not proposed by anything observed in the scientific literature.
Meanwhile what we do observe is an elegant process whereby minor and random variations along with selection can accomplish amazing things; and at a observable rate consistent with what we observe in the fossil record corroborated by physics and radioatomic decay, and know about the age of the Earth and the movement of continents.
We can observe this same pattern cropping up in diverging populations, and this process is at a speed consistent with the observed rates of interspecies difference accumulation.
That is Science. (to take it back to the title of the thread)
You observe a process. Measure its rate. Explain natural phenomena with natural observed and measured causes. Determine if what you observe is consistent with current theory. Publish. Publish and get a Nobel if you get to change the theory in light of your new evidence.
This micro macro drivel is like saying that the "micro" erosion observed and measured currently is not sufficient to explain the "macro" erosion of valleys and canyons.
Maybe its not true...
Another evolutionary bottleneck.
If groups as large as ones like the Amish are having difficulties because of (essentially) inbreeding, then how did all these evolutionary bottlenecks which allegedly reduced the population to a few thousand go on to produce healthy individuals?
Are you telling us then that only the successful designs somehow were the only ones to get fossilized by some chance?
Failed body plans don't get to grow into the million population group, they die young if they are even born at all.
What ever happened to the changes being gradual? Evos constantly mock non-evos for their comments about one species giving birth to another significantly different progeny, but that is exactly what you are implying needs to happen. The gradual changes didn't make it. They would have had to be more dramatic to survive birth and reach age of reproduction.
Those gradual changes would be considered *failed* if they weren't enough to allow stunning success but not all those *failed* plans need be fatal, as in the case of limbs developing to flippers. A limb going to flipper is not a serious enough failure in change that the individual would not not make it to birth. That is not a fatal birth defect.
But what good would a partially formed limb that is transitioning from leg to flipper be? It would be a liability to a land creature, leaving it more susceptible to injury and death as the land creature could not use a hybrid leg/flipper for locomotion very easily, nor could it use a hybrid arm/flipper to gather food.
The hybrid limb/flipper would not be a great advantage in the water as it would not be as useful as a fully developed flipper to escape being preyed on by those creatures such as sharks which have fully functioning flippers.
An animal in process of going from land to water or water to land is not well suited to survive either on land nor in water in the transition stage.
So how did it manage to do that?
Well jeepers, that's a fine admission from somebody who's committed to a theory that depends on the fossil record for its justification.
Details, details.....
Don't confuse them with the facts.
Could it be that it really doesn't? That it's just wishful thinking by people who want it to look that way so that they can eliminate God from the equation?
It seems the easiest explanation to me for why we only find rather small and mostly marsupial mammals in strata laid down during the age of the dinosaurs.
And that proves what, exactly? Besides the fact that it appears that marsupial type animals existed in proximity to dinosaurs?
Similarly a river living mammal could easily develop a multipurpose leg that also had function as a flipper, like a seal. A seal has not lost function of its front legs, they are now better flippers than legs.
And I am not implying 'hopeful monsters', I am saying that any gradual deviation from a successful body plan will be weeded out by natural selection. Obviously what is "successful" will change as circumstances change, from needing to be streamlined, to being a tetra-pod, back to needing to be streamlined, as all evidence suggests marine mammals went through.
These gradual changes can be observed in short periods of time that make large changes over large periods of time no problem at all. And none of the fossil intermediates will be 'monsters' or some sort of half formed creature, they will be a fully formed species that was just gradually more marine than its predecessors.
Ah the "scientists hate God" delusion.
And it is evidence that only marsupial mammals lived that long ago, and placental mammals were a more recent development that edged out marsupials everywhere except Australia.
Just as Antarctica is evidence that when it drifted too far south, the animals that inhabited the Earth were far different than the ones that inhabit it today.
Calling the creature a flying squirrel is a misnomer.
What it actually is is a gliding squirrel, and there is no indication that any of the gliding creatures (transitional or otherwise) ever developed into a flying creature.
Inbreeding is what produces the breeds of dogs that we have.
By breeding within families, canids are artificially selected for a narrow range of traits deemed desireable, such as a superior sense of smell, very short legs, digging ability, speed, water-loving, etc. Genes become concentrated.
Where some traits can't reasonably be selected for, we must have artifices such as ear-trimming and tail-docking.
Interbreeding concentrates genes that produce some populations of desireable traits (hybrid vigor), but also undesireable traits (diseases).
Inbreeding in humans (and canids) eventually polarizes the gene pool, producing both genius and cluelessness. In canids, those "losers" are euthenized: In humans (to put it bluntly), those "losers" are left out of the breeding stock.
Collectivist societies will attempt to select out traits to produce "desireable" populations.
Some canine diseases, like hip dysplasia aren't discovered in a timely manner, and continue in the breeding stock.
Throughout written history of certain ancient civilizations, one can view the effects of inbreeding because history is written by the successful "genius" aspects of a civilization.
While I'm not the one to ask about the Amish, I'd expect a certain number of the brighter progeny to be selected out. (Abandoning that faith to pursue material happiness, whilst the remainder are left to muddle through).
Inbreeding within ethnicities retains both positive attributes (genius) and negative attributes (certain diseases) which don't manifest themselves until after the carrier has already passed on those negative traits.
Not so. There are marsupials in the Americas.
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.
What alleged evolutionary advantage would placental mammals have that would allow them to edge out marsupials? And if that was the case, why the success of marsupials in succeeding in some places and not others?
"Because walking is so awkward with the membrane between their wrists and ankles, being on the ground makes them very vulnerable to predators. Protection is found by both living in the trees and being active after dark. "
amd:"The change from a glider to a flier would be a gradual process if the flier experienced an advantage."
In which case, the intermediate arm/wing would not be suitable for either flying or walking, leaving them vulnerable to predators, much as the flying squirrel is.
amd: "Similarly a river living mammal could easily develop a multipurpose leg that also had function as a flipper, like a seal. A seal has not lost function of its front legs, they are now better flippers than legs."
Plenty of animals swim just fine with the legs they have.
*would be*. *could be*. It's all speculation. Nobody knows for sure, including the scientists who propose these explanations.
The fossil record is clear that during the age of the dinosaurs there were only small and mostly marsupial mammals.
Then after the dinosaurs there was an expansion of placental mammalian species that edged out marsupials everywhere except Australia where none made it across the ocean.
What "alleged" advantage could there be for an animal to directly feed blood and nutrients through a direct connection in the womb? For a person with "mom" in their name you sure drew a blank on that one!
A seal's front legs work just fine as legs.
A "gliding" squirrel hasn't lost the use of its arm, and neither has a bat.
The intermediate need only be of general use for both for it to differentiate into solely or mostly one purpose or the other. Just like a flying squirrel or a seal when compared to a bat or a dolphin. Obviously I am not saying one is an ancestor of another, but the transition from gliding to flying or semi aquatic to fully aquatic are not transitions for which we have no living (or fossil) examples.
As I said. In a question you refused to address.
If you believe all species descended from what few could fit on a boat a few thousand years ago, you believe in evolution that is much stronger and faster than anything supported in the scientific literature.
And what mechanism do you propose stops this ROBUST evolution, hundreds of times stronger than what biologists propose, from moving the animal beyond "kinds"?
There are species of spiders that 'live' underwater and 'breath' underwater- of course they only briefly make forrays into the water, and can only breath by tapping into trapped underwater airbubbles, but by golly, since they are 'aqautic spiders' I must hterefore assume they are descended from Brown Trout, which as we all know, have been known to briefly 'breathe' out of water, and since they can leap great distances in the air this would of course indicate that htese brown trout are descended from air breathing 'flying Squirrels', who as you know, simply could not make a go of it on the ground, and feared becomming extinct, so, while some million or so other ground dwellers did just fine on the ground, these critters took to the trees (Which apparently had no predators), and since these 'flying' squirrels are able to glide from tree to tree- gliding right over hte heads of all the other poor saps on the ground who were surviving just fine, and since flying squirrels like to drink water, then this must hterefore mean that 'flying squirrels' are henceforth descended from 'flying fish'.
Evidence? How dare you request any evidence?!!! Skin flaps under squirrels armpits evolved into fully functional wing structures, and squirrels evolved avian lungs and muscle structures all in anticipation of one day soaring high in the sky dag nabbit! And that is that! Just look around you at al lthe hological 'similarities'- that should be proof enough that everythign descended from pond scum right there! How dare you quesiton Sir god Darwin?!!!
"The striking superficial resemblance between the bones of the theropod dinosaurs (the so-called "bird-like" dinosaurs) and Archaeopteryx (one of the most ancient birds - which lived roughly 150 millions years ago) has led scientists to hypothesize that birds are descendants of these dinosaurs. The bones of the wing of Archaeopteryx look very much like the bones of the theropod dinosaur, Deinonychus. Indeed, the resemblance is so striking that it convinced a very large percentage of the scientific community that birds are descended from the theropod dinosaurs."
"This "Birds are Dinosaurs" theory has become one of the dominant theories of evolution, since its introduction 20 years ago by John Ostrom. The theory is in real trouble now, since a recent study has demonstrated that the bones that make up the wings and feet of birds and the theropod dinosaurs are not derived from the same digits.1"
"What does it matter if birds are descended from theropod dinosaurs? If birds are not descended from theropods, they are not descended from any other known species. Here is a quote from the University of California, Berkeley website:
"The opponents of the theropod hypothesis refuse to propose an alternative hypothesis that is falsifiable. This is probably because there are no other suitable candidates for avian ancestors".2
This is quite an admission, and demonstrates the dogmatism of Darwinism. The paradigm takes precedence over the data, since falsification of descent of birds from theropods would falsify all of evolutionary theory."
The First Study
The wings of birds develop from digits II, and III, and IVThe paleontological evidence for the derivation of the wings and feet of birds is completely lacking, since there is no known predecessor of Archaeopteryx. Therefore, the fossil record cannot answer this question. However an ingenious idea by Alan Feduccia (an expert in the study of bird evolution) led to the study of the embryology of reptiles and birds to determine from which digits the wings and feet of birds are derived. The authors of the study showed that during the development of the hand (or wing) of the bird, there was a transient appearance of digit V, which did not occur in the alligator and turtle, which develop all five digits. These results clearly indicate that the bird's wing is derived from digits II, III, and IV.
The Second Study4-5
BackgroundThe lungs of birds, mammals, and reptiles are vastly different in terms of morphology and function. The lungs of mammals and birds are far more efficient than those of reptiles, which allows for prolonged periods of intensive physical activity. The lungs of mammals consists of millions of alveoli, which are highly vascularized air sacs. The degree of vascularization (the capillary blood supply surrounding the alveoli) and the large surface area allow for efficient exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide, which allow for mammals' high metabolic rate. The lungs of reptiles are termed "septate," consisting of the equivalent of a large single alveolus divided by vascularized ingrowths, or septae. The bellows-like septate lung of the reptile is poorly vascularized, which prohibits endothermic ("warm-blooded") metabolism. The avian (bird) lung is also a septate lung, but consists of a series of extensive, highly vascularized air sacs, which extend into both the thoracic (chest) and abdominal cavities.
Evidence 1: The structure of the pelvis and ribs of the theropod dinosaurs is incompatible with the breathing apparatus of Archaeopteryx or modern birds
Evidence 2: The structure of the lungs of the theropod dinosaurs is indistinguishable from that of modern reptiles
According to an article by Alan Feduccia:
"Despite the popularity of the dinosaurian origin of birds, many ornithologists and physiologists, in particular, have hadtremendous difficulty with the theory (8, 10, 11) becauseof a huge and growing body of contrary evidence and the fact thata ground-up origin of avian flight is considered a near biophysicalimpossibility (12). Aside from criticism concerning the cursorialorigin of avian flight, there are problems related to the geologic,temporal occurrence of putative dinosaurian ancestors, which occursome 30 to 80 million years after the appearance of the earliestknown bird Archaeopteryx, and these forms become more and moresuperficially birdlike as one approaches the latest Cretaceous.There is also the fact that virtually all of the anatomical featuresused to ally birds and dinosaurs have beendisputed."9 [LINK: GodandScience]
"The opponents of the theropod hypothesis refuse to propose an alternative hypothesis that is falsifiable. This is probably because there are no other suitable candidates for avian ancestors".2
Imagine that.....
An often overlooked point in the following passage is the underlying Hebrew words, muwth muwth which are translated surely die but literally mean die die.
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
There is one Wind (pneuma) blowing through existence, though, which can. "The wind blows where it wants to, but you can't tell where it comes from or where it's going. The same with everyone born of God's Pneuma."
The life that we have with Christ in God is not subject to physical death or the second death. It can never die, because He lives. His Name is I AM.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38-39
For instance, as she and allmendream have noted, what is called random (really meaning, unpredictable ) in nature does not stand as proof that God does not exist.
However, the insistence that there is no purpose to the physical creation especially the physical life of men denies of the power and Person of God. And for that reason, such a claim is an affront to all of us who know Him and love Him.
Whereas science may exclude purpose on the principle of methodological naturalism to do its work, it is just as far out its league to suggest there is no purpose as it is to suggest there is no God or indeed anything supernatural. The scientific method does not apply to such questions, science does not have the right toolset to address such questions.
And truly many scientists know this and stay away. But of course there are a few like Dawkins who do theology under the color of science. So naturally the reaction from the Judeo/Christian community is swift and severe.
Conversely, there are some who do theology under the color of science. In my opinion, that glorifies the creature, not the Creator, and therefore is ill conceived. And predictably, the reaction from the science community is swift and severe.
If it were up to me, I would center the debate on the principles, like betty boop and metmom and xzins have tried to do on this thread.
metmom for instance raised the principle that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. And truly, that is an important principle in what I would call the hard sciences like physics, chemistry, astronomy and microbiology.
The historical sciences like paleontology, archeology, anthropology and Egyptology hold to the opposite principle: the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Obviously, their physical evidence is spotty at best because not every thing that once lived left a physical record of itself. So they fit the evidence they uncover into a theory of a continuum, a blueprint, a paradigm. It is only when the evidence cannot fit (e.g. if they were to find the fossil of a man in the same place as a T-Rex) that the theory is falsified.
With the hard sciences, the theory itself is subjected to rigorous and continuing tests any one of which could falsify the theory.
The theory of evolution has a foot on each side. In the microbiologists lab, mutations can be provoked and/or observed. In the paleontologists dig, the fossil is fit into the paradigm tree of life.
And the principle betty boop and I keep trying to drive home is not to overstate any of it, not to project the one onto the other. That the paleontologist observes different species in different strata does not ipso facto mean that each variation was brought about strictly by naturalistic means such as observed in the microbiologists lab. Nor can it say that therefore God does not exist. Nor can it say that it was not purposeful.
It may be true that every atheist believes in evolution. But not everyone who believes in evolution is atheist. To make such a condemnation is equally an overstatement.
And moreover, is the language still used by some of the most eminent biologists of recent times. For instance, the Nobel prize-winning biologist Jacques Monod, who insists that everything we see all around us in nature, biological and otherwise, is the product of "sheer, blind chance."
I dunno, xzins. Seems to me if a claim like that were true, it would refer to a process nothing short of the miraculous. For a chain of accidents is to be credited with the order of the natural world. On this principle, order rises, spontaneously you see, from disorder.
But jeepers, when exactly did Darwinists start believing in miracles like this?
Order cannot rise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period.
Even the atheist must admit to space, time, physical laws and constants as guides to the system. And science has no materialistic explanation for the origin of space, time, physical laws and physical constants.
Moreover, science has no effective materialistic explanation for the origin of life, inertia, information (successful communication), autonomy, semiosis, consciousness or conscience.
So when some scientists like Dawkins using the reductionist methodological naturalism and the scientific method look over the upper rim of their glasses at us Christians and declare that the spirit and soul do not exist or that the mind is just an epiphenomenon of the physical brain or that there is no ghost in the machine or that God is a delusion we understandably shake our heads. Conversely, it is just as annoying to them when we do theology under the color of science.
Exactly correct, thus those that try to shoe horn theology into the scientific method are rather daft. Science doesn't have the right tool set to address such issues.
I don't believe people who do this are silly or crazy, rather that it's just human nature to focus narrowly. A person dying of cancer, when he stubs his toe will instantly, wrongfully consider the toe his number one health problem.
IMHO, we all just need to back away, get our priorities straight (it's about the Creator not the creature) and look again at the forest of evidence, including both physical and non-physical.
Man did not live contemporaneously with dinosaurs. The majority of species that ever existed are now extinct. The continents have moved over the ages of the Earth and when Antarctica drifted too far south it was inhabited by extinct species.
Higher purpose, higher morality, higher love, higher hope....all disappear or morph under chaos or situationism.
You wrote:
If an eyewitness were present at creation, and then relayed observations, that would have bearing on the discussion. Our Bible states just that. An eyewitness has descibed significant details of creation.
It's wrong to go beyond those details, but it's equally wrong to ignore them.
Likewise, it's wrong for me to deny the skeleton of a T-Rex. It does exist, and its existence has a proper explanation. I must not go beyond the facts, nor should I ignore them. Natural revelation also has its message to me from God.
Dawkins tries to do exactly htis by insinuating that there is no spirit, and that any such thoughts are mearely due to a mutaiton which keeps people ignorant apparently- He beleives that belief in God is due to a virus (which he also beleives, beleive it or not, that it can be spread by coughing or sneezing). Nat Geo, the Discovery channel, PBS and hte History Channel ALL tryto inject their brand of theology into evolution all the time- As do a great many scientists that beleive in Macroevolution- their god however is nature that apparently is capable of the doing hte impossible- But heaven forbid Creationists bring up the metaphysical, and point to the spirit and higher knowledge coming from the Holy spirit, in ADDITION to discussing hte physical evidences seen in nature- Why then they are branded as 'daft' for doing so- What's 'good for' the Goose, apparently isn't good for hte Gander
Evos and Dawkins feel that they are in a position to bring the metaphysical into the discussion when it comes to pronouncements that there is no God, the demand for presuming methodical naturalism, or where the belief in the supernatural even comes from (viruses? Give me a break...), but go into a tailspin when non-evos bring up anything that smacks of intelligence, design, or a creator.
Seems like they think they are somehow the only ones qualified to speak on the metaphysical when it concerns science even when they know (and admit) that they have no basis for any of their pronouncements.
The hypocrisy is staggering.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life.
God's glory is reflected in the heavens. The testimony of starlight is not all a trick and a lie but speaks to the grandeur of God; he is Eternal, and eternally patient, he is forbearing, and his forbearance is eternal. Do not lose sight of this one thing my FRiend, A day for God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years a day.
Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony, dear brother in Christ!
At this point I cannot help but bring hosepipe's point to bear.
(Paraphrased) those like Dawkins - a notorious atheist - who believe that faith in God is the result of evolution are only proving that they are themselves under-evolved.
There must be that which doesn't change and that which does change. God is the absolute. He does not change.
I'm tempted, but I'll go no further because my dearest sister in Christ, betty boop, has an entire cosmology built on that universal truth. And we would all benefit from her outlining it to us.
It's wrong to go beyond those details, but it's equally wrong to ignore them.
As for me, when the age of the universe comes up, I usually just try to finish the sentences.
The universe is 7 days old from the inception space/time coordinates at which point (in the beginning) God was the only observer.
Interestingly, Einstein was a Jew. So also is Gerald Schroeder, the Physicist who applies relativity and inflationary theory to Genesis 1.
I perceive that God the Father has revealed Himself to us in four ways: (1) through the Person of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, (2) through the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) through the Scriptures, and (4) through the Creation, both spiritual and physical - heaven and earth.
And I have perceived no inconsistencies perhaps because (1) His Name I AM is my guide, (2) man is not the measure of God, and (3) a thing is true because God says it.
To God be the glory!
Perfectly stated!
Without God, we all become the arbiters of our own morality and as inherently selfish and self-centered humans, that morality will ALWAYS be immoral. It is because of this that we see people totally disregard the rights and even lives of others just to satisfy their own desires.
Detection of purpose is beyond the scope of science.... If I lose at cards then I see it as God's will.... An atheist may well see it as just random bad luck.... There is no scientific way to differentiate or discern between these two views.
I'm having a little difficulty reconciling these two passages. It's clear that the world-class British polymath Francis Bacon banished final causes from science in the late 16thearly 17th centuries which is where the scientific doctrine of methodological naturalism came from in the first place. Clearly your second statement reflects this understanding.
What's not clear is why you use the card game analogy as an illustration of purpose. A purpose, or end or goal or, as Aristotle called it, peras ("limit") is precisely what philosophers mean by a final cause. We enter the domain of teleology here.
In Metaphysics, Aristotle defined the final cause as "an end which is not for the sake of anything else, but for the sake of which everything [else] is." He adds, "So if there is to be a last term of this kind, the process will not be infinite; and if there is no such term there will be no final cause. Those who maintain an infinite series do not realize that they are destroying the very nature of the Good, although no one would try to do anything if he were not likely to reach some limit (peras); nor would there be reason (nous) in the world, for the reasonable man always acts for the sake of an end [purpose or goal] which is a limit."
Aristotle thought that a limit is the necessary condition of rationality in action, that it is something inherent in reason. And as Eric Voegelin points out, for Aristotle, reason is embedded in the order of being, and it is the property of reason to have a limit. Now logically, there can be no end of anything that did not begin. That is, the limit cannot be the production of an infinitely regressive causal series: There must be a First Cause. J. Drew and S. Venable, Don't Let Science Get You Down, Timothy, Lulu Press, 2007, p. 42.So you see, by banishing final causes, you also render questions of origin (first cause) irrelevant, as beyond the scope of the scientific method in principle. But I digress.
To get back to your point about "purpose" in a card game; i.e., you say the "purpose" is to win. And the distribution of the cards is random. By which you show by analogy that "purposeness and randomness are not opposites."
Opposites? Good grief, I wouldn't say that! More like dynamic complementarities by means of which all of Nature is constituted! That is, by means of the dynamical relation between that which does not change, and that which is capable of changing. (E.g., by way of analogy, the relation between the first and second laws of thermodynamics).
It seems to me that randomness by itself accomplishes nothing in an unguided system. And of course, the "guides" would have to come from the causes that science has expunged from its method. With first (formal) and final causes gone, all we have left are material and efficient causes. If science chooses to restrict its method to these, fine. But then please, do not blow up this restricted method into a full-blown cosmology of the universe.
Let's say we're participating in a poker game, allmendream. Your purpose in being there is "to win." My purpose in being there is to have an enjoyable evening with good friends engaged in a sociable game of chance. Which of our purposes is more rational?
When we think of purposeful activity, we normally think of intelligence working toward the achievement of novel goals. In poker games, there really are few ways that human beings can inject intelligence in such a way as to affect the outcome of the game. Usually there will be an opportunity for discarding and drawing new cards. Which each and every time simply amounts to hitting the "reset button" on the random distribution of the cards. Short of bluffing (or cheating, heaven forfend), there's little a human being can do to change the outcome of a game that is constituted by the way the next card just happens to fall.
I'm pretty sure Nature does not do business in this way. And if it did, there'd be no room for you or me in it. Free will would be a joke. We'd have nothing to do....
Just some thoughts FWIW. Thanks for writing, allmendream!
Indeed. And yet correlation does not prove causation. If we see patterns in nature, chances are they are not developments from "the random" especially if such patterns are observable "across domains." If we see they are ubiquitous, we need to ask why.
But will "science" let us ask that question???
Truly, science should not speak to either first cause or final cause since both are off the table of scientific inquiry in the first place.
I'm pretty sure Nature does not do business in this way. And if it did, there'd be no room for you or me in it. Free will would be a joke. We'd have nothing to do....
We can't expect science to answer the question because first and final causes are off the table.
But we can always ask the theologians, philosophers and mathematicians (incl. information theorists.)
So true.. so many concepts so little time..
Who is the most correct or partially correct?..
All of us I would say..
The message of John ch 10 about the sheep pens is pregnant..
There seems to be qualia of mental figments of thought..
Groups of thought that forms groups of people..
Whats "silly" to some is deep thought to others..
And whats deep to some is silly to others..
ANd with degrees of dfference in between..
How brilliant of Jesus to NOT forbid sheep pens..
He didnt even use the word or concept of heretic..
Without the Holy Spirit we all are mentally wandering around like a blind smart aleck thats pretty deaf too.. It is so easy to discredit others.. Jesus said you MUST be born again NOT become smarter than other religious people.. You know the smart ones with all their spiritual eggs dyed and decorated..
After all the original error was eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL.. and probably metaphorically climbing around in it and throwing the fruit.. Yes..... like an APE.
What I mean with the card game analogy is that the distribution of the cards is random, but that doesn't mean that there is no purpose among the contestants of the game.
My purpose is to win.
In evolution the purpose is to pass on genes to subsequent generations.
Just because mutation is random doesn't mean that there is no purpose behind mutation. For example, a bacteria under stress will deliberately increase its own mutation rate.
Also, just because mutation is random doesn't mean that the fossils we find are just as likely to be wildly mutated as consistent with its cohorts. That is like insisting that in a poker contest between a world class gambler and me, each of us should be equally likely to win, because the card distribution is random.
Yet there seems to me to be a critical, irreconcilable difference between the bacterium's ability to "deliberately" increase its own mutation rate and the prediction of random purposelesseness in nature which leaves all questions of "deliberation" out of consideration altogether at all times, regardless of the question.
Let me put this question to you plainly, allmendream: In a deterministic world, where does "deliberation" fit in?
Meanwhile, I continue to worry about your invocation of purpose in nature. Dontcha know, such a view is poison to the advancement of a career in science nowadays?
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!
Intelligence and education is not the end all and be all of human existance. Notice how when the evos want to insult someone, the first thing they attack is their intelligence and education? Invectives like *cretard*, IDiot, ignorant, stupid, etc.
I never heard in a eulogy about how smart someone was, or how much more educated he was than the rest of us peons. Eulogies are always about morals and social relationships, the things that science can't touch.
Those who've made the greatest impact on humanity are those who displayed the most compassion, not those who were the *smartest*.
It isn't intelligence that sets man apart from animals. One can be a genius and be morally bankrupt, as is evidenced by so many dictators and tyrants throughout history.
I've always wondered who people would rather have as a neighbor if the economy ever bottomed out, or some natural disaster hit, or some terrorist attack.... The Amish who believe in creation and have little use for technology, or the likes of Dawkins?
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - I Cor 2:1-5
But it is capable of enacting a proven program of adaptability to circumstances. One of those adaptations is a purposeful increase in the mutation rate by expression of error prone DNA polymerase. The mere existence of error prone DNA polymerase in addition to high fidelity DNA polymerase show that "random" has a purpose written into the bacterial genome.
And the purpose is continued survival of the species due to the strength of random variation to come up with novel adaptations that will be subject to selection.
Are we really sure about this? And by the way, what do you mean by cognition?
You will not attribute any purpose in or to Nature; and yet cannot seem to avoid attributing "purpose" to the bacterium and/or its genome:
"But it is capable of enacting [implying freedom to choose an act?] a proven program [implying memory?] of adaptability to circumstances [non-local signals?]. One of those adaptations is a purposeful increase in the mutation rate by expression of error prone DNA polymerase. The mere existence of error prone DNA polymerase in addition to high fidelity DNA polymerase show that random has a purpose written into the bacterial genome."
In short, if I understand you correctly, the bacterium "chooses" to bump its mutation rate by increasing error-prone DNA polymerase in response to signals emanating from the external environment.... It seems to me local causation as governed by the physico-chemical laws would be insufficient to fully account for this behavior.
A more sophisticated (i.e., complex) crittur is the amoeba. The Czech physician Slavoj Hontela conducted an interesting experiment regarding amoeba behavior back in 2002. His paper was published at the Karl Jaspers Forum under the title: Is There an Essential Difference between the Human and Animal States of Consciousness? An excerpt:
It is obvious that each living organism standing at any step of the evolutionary ladder would respond to a sufficiently intensive stimulus, if it would be perceivable by the sensorial system of that organism and of course if the organism would be conscious, it means in the state of consciousness. The opposite state to the consciousness is unconsciousness. The stimuli might be produced in different ways : the change in the subject's circumstances is the most common....Just to note: Thinking is purposive activity. It does not seem to require full self-consciousness; but an organism capable of sensation, awareness where memory is in some fashion present. If living organisms are information-processors (as increasingly it is thought), then we need to understand that "information" is the very opposite of a random distribution. And it did not itself arise from a "random process."
The latter could be of mechanical or physical character (change in the light, sound, temperature, smell, vibration etc), chemical (change in the pH, effect of toxic chemicals, damaging radiation etc). In this conception a living Protozoic Amoeba fulfills all conditions to be conscious, to be in a state of consciousness....
How far this consciousness might be or should be considered as a "mental state" or a simple nerve-reflex structure is not easy to decide. Is it only the reaction to pleasant or unpleasant, useful or un-useful reaction ? Even in an Amoeba there are definitely signs of a memory presence. In regard that the memory is shown at the DNA molecule, in the process of "repairing" it might be presumed the memory proceeds the state of consciousness....
Let us to observe the behavior of an Amoeba in the microscopes visual field. We can see there an Amoeba, of Proteus species, slowly moving by stretching out its pseudopodia, looking probably for food. We place now with a glass pipette close to her few powdered pigments of a dried Chinese Ink. The amoeba stretches one of her pseudopodia to a pigment grain closest to her (evidence of a chemotaxic reaction or ability !) and involves the grain into her pushing it down to the nucleus where the digestive vacuoles are present. It is certainly interesting that the pigment transported through the pseudopodia towards the nucleus, doesn't yet touch the nucleus capsule when obviously the Amoeba recognized the undigestibility of the Chinese Ink pigment, the further transportation in the direction to the nucleus stops and the foreign body is quickly pushed back and finally eliminated from the Ameoba's body....
From this observation it is possible to make already several conclusions:
1) The amoeba was able to recognize and approach the foreign body which might be its potential food,We have to presume there were neuro-biological elements equivalent to those of more developed organisms and obviously there were present a appropriate number of genes.... In regard to the fact the elimination process of the pigment start[ed] already before the nucleus was involved, seems to support the hypothesis of involvement of the microtubules in the plasma....
2) A. was able to mobilize her pseudopodia giving them the appropriate message to approach this pigment and engulf it.
3) With a certain delay which was obviously necessary to process the information related to the characteristic of the foreign body and the realization that it is indigestible follows another set of messages and the pigment was eliminated....
The second phase of the observation experiment was even more interesting because it brought to the evidence the proof of the presence of memory. We have removed the pigment from the underlying microscopic glass dip, we put there a new drop of clear water and again placed there another pigment grain of Chinese Ink. The Amoeba stretched the pseudopodium to the closest pigment but did not touch it and, in contrary pulled back from the pigment grain. Obviously it preserved the memory for the identification of the indigestible pigment !
It would be an exaggeration to speak about the mind or thinking but the period of might be 30 seconds which were passed by between the pigment taking and eliminating it; evokes the impression that the Amoeba needed a certain time to process the obtained information, i.e., it was "thinking."...
SUMMARY: We have to presume that any living structure or system {organism} receives a set of genes and maybe of memes from its father and mother at the moment of birth. The ALLELE possesses even at this primary start of life the memory, which enables it to response to any changes occurring in its internal and external environment. With help of sensorial reception which could be at any molecular, neuro-molecular or sensorial organ level, the allele is bombarded by information which is deposited into its memory.... The latter are organized into different systems, used for further formation of reactions. It means the system is THINKING. This activity may be occurring in the brain, or in neuro-ganglia as it's in an insect....
Through all of this, please recall that questions of purpose in nature entail questions of goals, ends FINAL CAUSES. But science has dumped all final causes. So what are we talking about here?
I'll just leave it there for now, allmendream. Thank you so much for writing!
Woo Wee thats gotta hurt..-—>(allmendream)
A bacteria may have "memory" and still not have cognition. In this case "memory" would be a molecular state that predisposed the cell to a particular action.
The "purpose" behind the bacteria increasing its mutation rate by expression of a different type of DNA polymerase that is error prone is increased survival of progeny. Those bacterial populations with this ability survived so much better than their cohorts without it, that this is a common ability among bacteria.
Thus my point is reinforced about "purpose" and "randomness". There is a purpose to the actions of the bacteria, even without cognition, and its purpose is to increase the random changes within its genome to generate an answer to the stress by utilization of natural selection of randomly generated genetic variation.
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Management Update: Port of Oakland revival.
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With the arrival of three new container cranes from Shanghai last month, the Port of Oakland is anticipating increased cargo throughput. According to Omar Benjamin, the port's executive director, Oakland had a 30 percent increase in its maritime cargo imports and an 11 percent increase in outbound cargo exports compared to a year ago. "There are glimmers of economic recovery on the horizon," Benjamin said. "And people are beginning to feel the negative news of the past several months beginning to thaw and give way to better days." In a letter to shippers, Benjamin also noted that Union Pacific Railroad recently opened its Donner Pass route located in the Sierra Nevada mountain range to domestic double-stack intermodal container freight traffic.
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I think we may have converted a cager to the dark side!
Discussion in 'Moto Club' started by nsb22, Jun 25, 2007.