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International fundamentalists will not like democracy being successful in a largely Muslim state.If it flourishes in such a large and diverse country,however,it would be so effective in persuading others to follow that path.Much more effective than forced regime change a la Bush & Blair.
Jeff Tan.
A lot of Indonesians miss Suharto, but the past is the past. If Suharto had dropped dead in July 1997, I would miss him too. But his mismanagement of the financial crisis is for the most part his fault. I was in Indonesia during that time and everything was OK until Suharto picked Habibie and he lost his marbles by listening to snake oil salesmen (ie currency board). People with wish for Suharto to come back seem to have a 6 month memory block from Dec 1997 - May 1998.
Secondly Indonesia has not performed economically as well from 1998-2006 has less to do with the system of government and more to do with the entry of China into the WTO. Once China became a member of the WTO a lot of economic growth and jobs was lost to China from all over South East Asia (including Indonesia). The question is how well Suharto would have performed in such circumstances?
Thirdly, the system run by Suharto was heavily centralized. The biggest challenges for Indonesia is not democracy but decentralization. It is important to distinguish the two. If Indonesian leaders wanted to keep everything in Jakarta but still have democracy I am pretty sure things will more or less run like they did under Suharto. At the same time Indonesia was undergoing democratic change it was decentralizing a lot of functions and staff to local governments some of which were not prepared at all. A lot of things you mention rampant corruption, crumbling infrastructure has less to do with democracy and more to do with hasty decentralization than with democracy. Instead of paying one person you had to pay several to get permits.
I am one of those people who believes that whether a country is well run has less to do with the system of government (ie democracy or dictatorships) than with the structure of governments, tax systems and decentralization. You don't touch these things unless you really know what you are doing. Bad American policy in Iraq has less to do with trying to implement democracy but disbanding the Iraq Army in 2004. A really bone headed decision. That decision alone is most likely the cause of 70-80% of the violence in Iraq from 2004-2007.
@ fsurf. Go and wipe out your own subsidised farmers and replant your own native forests before telling the Indonesians how to manage theirs. Then start paying decent world prices for the increased amount of food imports from the 3rd world following a routing of all the export subsidies that literally starve the subsidy free parts of the world of opportunity. Only then when those called upon to sacrifice development have rebalanced economic prospects could your silly little egoist lectures be tolerated
Who would have thought that in the span of 10 year that Indonesia has changed from a racist & dictatorship to an open inclusive democracy. Indonesia is now the most democratic and peaceful country in Southeast Asia. Where can you see a playboy magazine openly sold in a muslim countries? Yes, in Indonesia. It is a courtesy of democracy in action.
To Jeff Tan,
Point I
"Can you imagine what kind of system that allows
these men to be the candidates in the first place ?"
Yes I can imagine a place that they can be Commander Chief of the Armed Forces and Commander of the Special Forces that place is Suharto's Indonesia.
As for Steve Henke, he was not assigned by the IMF. Here is his biography http://www.cato.org/people/steve-hanke. If a country does not want to listen to IMF advice then don't accept their money. How do you expect Western tax payers to react if their taxes (which go to fund the IMF) goes to things like fuel subsidies. The reason why the Rupiah depreciated is because people (both foreigners and Indonesians) did not have faith in Suharto and the Indonesian economy. If a country loses that credibility then even fixing a currency to a fixed exchange rate is useless.
POint II
"Here is what I predicted Suharto would do differently in 1998
to 2006. First, he would send his best commandos to East
Yes Suharto already did that person was Prabowo. Indonesia occupation of East Timor was bloody enough : 100,000 - 150,000 people killed outright or out of starvation out of population of 600,000. It cost a lot of lives and money for Indonesia. My father knew a driver who worked for the Indonesian military transporting soldiers from West Timor to East Timor. One day he would transport them across the border a couple of days later he would transport them back to West Timor many of the same soldiers back in body bags.
"Second, he would rebuild the pathetic infrastructures that
includes roads, power and water plants, telecoms, schools,
bridges, farms, fishery, plantations, and mines."
As for the infrastructure, the cash payment to the poor is to compensate for the loss of the fuel subsidies. I agree with you it should be spent on infrastructure. However, I don't think Suharto would have done what you suggested. If he did he would have gotten rid of the subsidies in the mid 1990s.
"Third, he would continue his 'not so populer but necessary'
transmigration plan, to reduce overcrowded and overpopulated
Java island and re-distributed more people to outlying
islands to boost the local economics. "
I have been to transmigration settlement in Kalimantan and Sumbawa, and frankly alot of them are ill conceived. I don't think the government policy should be in the business of resettling people. Right now with cheaper air travel, government decentralization and more economic activities in out islands (due to boom in commodity prices) there have been much higher levels of private immigration within Indonesia than during the Suharto period.
Point III
"The last time I check, when Hu Jin Tao and PM Lee tell their
ministers to jump, the answers are "How high, Sir..?!?!"
You cannot find more centrallized gov't than those in China
and Singapore. Again, several nations might work just fine
with de-centralization, particulary if they had a lot of smart
people like in UK or US."
Within China, Hu Jin Tao has less power than the President of The United States. The ministers are selected by the Politburo and not by him. Everything in China now is run by the Politburo Standing Committee and not by one person. No one person in China has too much authority. Presidents and Premiers get selected/renewed every time they have a National Congress
Secondly, China has centralized political authority but a decentralized economy. Chinese provinces generate 50% of government revenues that compares to only 20% in Indonesia. China is alot decentralized then you think.
"But if you had to deal with imbeciles at local level, then
your fate is basically sealed. Those people get to their
local position is by bribing, not by competent. Interestingly
Suharto had very bright people on his disposal to help him
tailor very sound yet very centrallized economic policy."
Nearly all government positions in Indonesia are bought. The competition fierce that people have to meet minimal requirements. I don't agree with the centralized approach adopted by Suharto, because I worked inside Indonesia government departments as a consultant. All the Five Year Repelita are full of BS. They were good during Suharto first twenty years, but increasingly became obsolete. That is why the Indonesian government stops talking bout them.
Nice points. I would like to comment on each one of them,
if you do not mind.
Point 1.
Dec 1997 to May 1998 were "the period that will live in the
infamy" for many of chinese indonesians. This were terrible
time, but remember, on the peak of the riot in May 1998,
Suharto had nothing to do with it. He was in fact in Egypt.
It was either staged by Prabowo his ex-son-in-law, or
other rogue element in army that controlled by Wiranto
(interestingly, both these man are now running for president
in 2009. Can you imagine what kind of system that allows
these men to be the candidates in the first place ?).
The snake oil salesman that you mention, Steve "The Hanky
Panky" Hanke, was actually sent by IMF. On the ground that to
get the loan so desperately needed, the country must let loose
on the food and oil subsidies, let rupiah float, and several
other very severe measures that sent currency to 500%
deflation against USD in almost 1 month.
If you were in Indonesia that time, I am sure you remembered
the lovely Tutut Suharto appeared on TV commercial "love
rupiah campaign", a lame approach to boost confident in
banking system. Again, this condition was forced by IMF, even
against the wish of Suharto's Economic Tzar in 1998,
Nitisastro aka Berkeley Mafia.
Point 2.
BTW, China did not join WTO until 2001. Way before joining,
China has already become the workshop of the world.
Here is what I predicted Suharto would do differently in 1998
to 2006. First, he would send his best commandos to East
Timor. Yes..it will be very bloody..but who is America to
teach the rest of the world about pacifying the outbreak
region, while forcing Native Indians to live in reservation
Second, he would rebuild the pathetic infrastructures that
includes roads, power and water plants, telecoms, schools,
bridges, farms, fishery, plantations, and mines. Not spending
3 billion USD in some stupid "cash for poor" scheme that
current gov't is doing to boost its popularity.
Third, he would continue his 'not so populer but necessary'
transmigration plan, to reduce overcrowded and overpopulated
Java island and re-distributed more people to outlying
islands to boost the local economics.
Indonesia has big enough internal market to self sustain. The
fact that nowadays you could easily find Chinese made product
sold at half the production cost in Indonesia is simply due
to high manufacturing cost in Java, not because of China entry
to WTO.
Point 3.
The last time I check, when Hu Jin Tao and PM Lee tell their
ministers to jump, the answers are "How high, Sir..?!?!"
You cannot find more centrallized gov't than those in China
and Singapore. Again, several nations might work just fine
with de-centralization, particulary if they had a lot of smart
people like in UK or US.
But if you had to deal with imbeciles at local level, then
your fate is basically sealed. Those people get to their
local position is by bribing, not by competent. Interestingly
Suharto had very bright people on his disposal to help him
tailor very sound yet very centrallized economic policy. Oh,
did I mention Berkeley Mafia..?
It is better to deal with one incompetent, than to negotiate
with a bunch of morons.
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Hahahaha. headline has a simpson's quote, and then they used a donut graph! Man this is as funny as the economist gets!
I can see Homer Jay Simpson reading this now...but from coach instead of first class!
The fact that democracy seems to be taking root in Indonesia is definitely good news. Success in Indonesia would give hope to other countries in SE Asia where democracy is only half-working, to other muslim-dominated countries as well as other populous, multi-ethnic countries.
To Jeff Tan,
Mr. Henke never was a member of the IMF. The IMF Assessment Project is a non-profit organization setup to monitor the IMF. Those people are not IMF board members.
The whole currency board idea was Mr. Henke and not the IMF. Although the IMF did help Argentina at one point develop a currency board. However the IMF did not suggest that as a solution to Indonesia's problem, because Indonesia was ill-equipped to develop a currency board. A currency board is opposite of free float exchange regime http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_board. Its even harder to maintain then the managed peg adopted by Indonesia during the Suharto Period. Because in Hong Kong case which is a true currency board the $7.78 Dollars = 1US$. They can't print money and their interest rates follow the US. They have no control over monetary policy.
The Asian financial crisis did not happen because a Thai Minister decided to free float the currency. They did so because they spent $44 Billion in foreign reserves trying to defend Thai Baht to maintain the managed peg against the dollar. In the long run they knew at the rate they were going they would be bankrupt. Once a foreign currency traders want to attack a currency in a fixed exchange rate regime whether irs the pound during the ERM, the Indonesian Rupiah during 1998 it really depends on how much reserves the Central Bank has to defend the currency.
"Chinese provinces generate 50% of government revenues
that compares to only 20% in Indonesia".
"This was exactly what Suharto trying to do with his
transmigration policy.
Here is a report about transmigration.
http://dte.gn.apc.org/ctrans.htm. The report I admit is biased but it addresses some of the concerns. My biggest problem is what makes the poor Javanese/Maduranese so special that they deserve government assistance. There are many people from Padang and the Chinese Indonesian opening businesses in Eastern Indonesia without the aid of the government.
The fact is Western tax payers have given Indonesia over hundred billion dollars in soft loans and grants during the past 40 years. A lot of it on loans were on preferential terms. It is very easy if Thailand or Indonesia don't want to deal with the IMF don't get into a situation where you have to. As for debtor assets. Most loans to governments are not like private loans there are no assets (especially not sitting in some US bank account) to back the loans outside of foreign currency reserves which are only a fraction need to cover all debts.
"I suggest that you compare the same data in economic growth,
for the same period (10 years) between Suharto's and the
so-called democratic government between 1998-2008. You will
agree with me that he did much better job that any of his
predecessor or his successor."
You do have a point that Indonesia's average annual growth rate was higher from 1990-1997. 6.9% compared to the 5.21% from 2000-2008. To be fair to your argument and mine, I left out 1998, 1999. Because if I included 1998 as part of the Suharto period and 1999 as part of the Reform period, the Reform period comes out marginally better.
The problem with your argument is when you starting comparing other countries in South East Asia (Malaysia and Thailand) that were affected by the financial crisis. Here I also left out 1998-1999 for Malaysia and 1997-1998 for Thailand. Malaysia's growth rate from 1990-1997 9.2% from 2000-2008 5.491%. Thailand was from 1990-1996 8.599% 1999-2008 4.98%.
Malaysia's party in government did not change and Thaksin was in power from 2001-2006. Thaksin did a lot of good things and was a strong leader, but Thailand's GDP growth rate was lower than Indonesia post crisis and not even close to matching the 8.599% growth achieved before the crisis. Even more telling is Malaysia's case, the drop in growth was in larger.
Usually after a credit crisis growth rates take a long time to recover. I provided those statistics, because its sobering. Even if Suharto was in power from 2000-2008 do you really think he could have assumed 1990-1997 growth rates. Mahathir/Bahdawi and Thaksin could not achieve even average 6% growth for both Malaysia and Thailand and they came out of the crisis initially much better than Indonesia and had both countries had higher pre-crisis growth rates than Indonesia.
The explanation is complicated
I'll be the Devil's Advocate here...
The idea of democracy in Indonesia is as bogus as getting
a snow in the dessert. The system did not work back then in
50s, do not work now, and will never work in the future..!!
Why can people learn from history..? In 50s Sukarno tingled
with this kind of democracy, and the result is 25 years of
mismanaged, misled, and misgoverned country until Suharto
took over in late 60s. Tens of political parties bickered
during campaign, shadowy negotiation during parlementary
election, corrupt officers ran rampant in the government.
Sounds familiar..? Oh..that's what had happend in 50s, and
scarily familiar now.
Crumbling infrastructure, flood and landslide and nature
disaster everywhere, rampant drug use, corruption everywhere
despite few staged arrests, people lining up for daily
basic necessities (oil, sugar, and rice), all happens while
government is more interested in so-called popular program
rather than productive governing policy.
Just because it comes from the west (read: US), does not
mean it will work everywhere. It's the lesson hard learned
by W Bush in Iraq. Not every country is suitable to be run
using democracy. When the last time you heard Singapore or
Hong Kong is having an election..? Yet, their countries are
one of the most well run and managed in the world. Not to
mentioned China...
BTW, if you pointing India...check your data first. The
country is in mess..not to mention crumbling infrastructure,
polical assassination, and sectarian violence.
What Indonesia needs is somewhat like Singapore. A benign
dictator that rules the country with iron fist. Suharto
goverment up until early 90s was a good example. Too bad
he could not / did not reign in his greedy children.
Do not get me wrong..I am not Suharto partisan. I, however,
has had the experiences living in two different systems. Boy,
did I miss the old one..
BTW, I am regular chinese indonesian.
@ fsurf, before you tech Indonesian your blah..blah..blah.. maybe you must regulate your financial system first. Since global economic crisis really pain of ass for us
The joke that keeps on giving.
Just continue working 'crossroads' into Indonesia articles into eternity. I shall smile, every time.
Several of your points need correcting.
Mr. Hanke is (and I quote):
"Member of the advisory board of the IMF Assessment Project"
It would be hard to become the member of the board without
having a cosy relationship in the first place, wouldn't it..?
The 1997 Asian Financial Crisis was in fact started in
Thailand, when one ministry said, "hey, let's float
the currency to make life more exciting". Now, why IMF
think it would be great for others to follow Thailand (by
using currency board) while in fact it would depreciate the
currency is beyond me. So, the sequence of event was:
Float (by IMF) --> rupiah depreciation --> people lose
faith --> riot --> end of Suharto's.
"How do you expect Western tax payers to react if their taxes
(which go to fund the IMF) goes to things like fuel subsidies"
Careful here.
Unlike AIG or Citigroup (where the American taxpayer money
goes into the black hole called 'bailout'), IMF demand
REPAYMENT on every cent they given out. It is a LOAN, not
AID. In fact, I believe Thailand in 2003 finished the last
installment on the repayment to IMF (while quietly swore
never to deal with IMF ever again).
It is not 'free' from western tax payer. What's for collateral
you ask..? Try the debtor's assets in western hemisphere.
I am not saying what happens in East Timor is right. Sometimes
it is necessary to stabilize outbreak region. Beside, if US
did not complain in 1975 when commies running amok in South
East Asia, why nagging now..? It took almost 5 million lives
the last time US meddling around in Vietnam.
Regarding China, I guess we can agree that the entire country
is run by single entity, be it Mr. Hu, or other old men in
"Chinese provinces generate 50% of government revenues
that compares to only 20% in Indonesia".
This was exactly what Suharto trying to do with his
transmigration policy. He needed mass migration, not just
visiting by air. He needed actual people to stay for longer
period of time, to farm, to mine, to build factories, to fish,
to work in plantation, etc. Preferably with their entire
family, so that the wage that they earn can be spent locally,
to stimulate the regional economy.
If you worked with Suharto's regime before, you will agree
that to build effective democracy, a nation needs sizeable
middle class. This means professional, wage earner, and small
business owner. I believe this what Suharto was trying to
achieve, as much as China is doing now.
As I wrote, Indonesia had this period before in 50s-60s.
It brought the country nowhere back then, only stupid
policy to whip nationalism (like fighting Malaysia) and
almost bankcrupt the country (100% inflation per annum in
I believe Suharto was doing much better job than Sukarno in building the nation (i.e. developing middle class). Repelita is
obsolete ? Well, yes, if you had goverment that is more
interested in self-popularization, than the one that is really
cares to build up its country.
I suggest that you compare the same data in economic growth,
for the same period (10 years) between Suharto's and the
so-called democratic government between 1998-2008. You will
agree with me that he did much better job that any of his
predecessor or his successor.
jdfhan1 brings up a good point about race (though I suspect the comment is sarcastic) -- Is Indonesia Chinese-friendly? I studied in Indonesia in 2003 & 2004 and got the impression there's still hostility against ethnic Chinese Indonesians. That was several years ago. Is it changing?
Is 13% decline the only thing that happened in 1998? Now the Economist has turned blind.
Daily chart: The agony of Greece
Graphic detail
India's economy: That will do nicely
Free exchange
Redistricting and the Supreme Court: The people v the constitution
Democracy in America
The Economist explains: Why can't I get a signal on my phone?
The Economist explains
Public spending and philanthropy: Easier said than done
Free exchange
Patent trolls: Why no one likes them
Business and finance
Pensions reform: Into the unknown
Buttonwood's notebook
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subset: commoncrawl


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text:
Two days ago, I found out that I had miscarried a much wanted baby. And now I'm just trying to sort out my feelings and get everything down "on paper" so that I can move on from it.
I don't want to forget. It sounds stupid maybe, because this baby never was and never will be. But I still feel like it was alive, and mine, and I don't want to forget that it lived, it happened. So I guess that by writing all this down, I can also keep a hold on that fact.
So here we go. A place to start.
On Monday, October 11th, it suddenly kind of dawned on me that I hadn't had a period in a while. Stupid, because I knew that we weren't preventing; you would think that I would be keeping track of these things. But, I just hadn't really thought about it, so when it finally occured to me, I was on CD 46! So I bought a test, and that was that.
I was so happy and excited. A little scared, sure, because suddenly it was real. We were going to have a newborn and a toddler to contend with. And how were we going to afford daycare for two of them - daycare for ONE costs an arm and a leg. But, I was also so very very excited. I quit coffee cold turkey. I started taking prenatals and a DHA sup. I started daydreaming about little babies. Hubby and I even started tentatively batting around names, making little jokes about ridiculous names as we did so. I was even looking forward to getting out my old maternity clothes in the next several months, just for a change of wardrobe.
On Wednesday, Oct 13th I had my first visit with the NP. She gave me an over all physical, and they drew blood. Everything looked good. That was also the first day that I had spotting, but she told me that spotting in early pregnancy is very normal, and told me to just take it easy for a couple of days until we got a look at the ultrasound.
On Thursday, Oct 14th, I had an ultrasound. They got me in fairly quickly, because of the spotting. Everything looked great. I saw the baby's heartbeat, and everything was normal. The baby was measuring at exactly 7 weeks.
On Tuesday, Oct 19th, I had my first visit with my Ob/Gyn. He looked at my blood tests and ultrasound and said that everything looked great. I told him about the spotting, which had continued off and on, but he wasn't concerned. He even said that I was okay to keep running if I felt up to it.
On Saturday, Oct 23rd, we told DH's sister that she was going to be an aunt again.
On Sunday, Oct 24th, I ran/walked a 5K in the morning. I've been told that this should have had nothing to do with anything, but I'll probably always think about it and wonder. That afternoon, we told my parents that we were expecting, and then we told my cousin Shanna. Shanna talked about how she kept her pregnancy a secret from everyone until she was 13 weeks, and I talked about how I'm a blabbermouth who can't keep a secret to save my life.
On Monday, Oct 25th, I woke up to much heavier spotting. I called my doctor's office at 8:30 am, as soon as they opened. They had me come in at 10. I told the nurse what was happening, and she seemed nervous. They moved me to a room with an ultrasound. I told the doctor (not my usual doctor) what was happening, and he was reassuring. But then we did the ultrasound. No heartbeat, no matter how hard he looked. Then he flipped a setting on the machine so that we could see blood flow. You could see my blood flowing just fine, bright reds and blues. The baby stayed black.
Later I asked the doctor if he could tell when the baby had died. He said that it was measuring at 8 weeks 3 days, so it must have been very, very recent.
I cried. A lot. The doctor and nurse left the room so I could put on my pants and cry in private. I sent a text to DH to call me, and wonder of wonders, he called me back right away. We talked until the doctor came back to talk about my options, none of them the options that I wanted.
In the end, I chose to take a pill that would cause my body to miscarry. They gave me five little white pills in a paper envelope and a perscription for Percoset, and sent me home.
I thought that I wouldn't be able to bear to tell my parents. I couldn't imagine adding their grief to mine, didn't want to have to say that I was okay when I wasn't. But then I did it - I called my mom and gave her the news. Mercifully, she said she would tell my dad and my cousin so I wouldn't have to. I'm a wimp, but there it is. I also called DH's sister. And gave many, many thanks for the fact that we hadn't yet told DH's parents. We were supposed to tell them that night. DH and I talked about it a little, whether we should tell them what happened, but my thought was that there wasn't much to tell. Why burden them with that when there was nothing that could be done.
That night, I sat for a very long time in DS's room, rocking him and holding him much longer than I usually do before bed. I can understand that I am very lucky. I have a wonderful husband who loves me, and a gorgeous amazing little boy who I'm crazy about. I can understand even more now, what a miracle it is that he was born - that his particular combination came about through the uniting of my body and DH's, that he survived the early weeks of pregnancy, that he is alive and he is mine and to me, he is completely unique. Having him is a balm on all sorts of aches. But that thinking is also a trap, because it reminds me that the baby I lost also would have been a unique and irreplacable individual. He or she too, would have amazed and delighted me with his/her little quirks and personality. But now s/he is gone, and I'll never know who it was that I lost.
It's stunning to me how I could only know that I was pregnant for two weeks, and yet still feel so much sadness in losing something that I only barely had. I try to compare it to losing anything else after only two weeks, but the comparisons never add up.
On Tuesday, Oct 26th, I dropped DS off at daycare, and then I went to the grocery store to get some supplies. I wore my sunglasses inside the store, just needing a little privacy for my hot red eyes. People probably thought that I had a black eye or that I fancied myself to be some sort of local celebrity. No autographs, please.
Then I went home, and I opened the envelope, and I took 5 pills. 6 if you count the Percoset.
That was a good move, I think, because before that, I had some crazy compulsion to deny that anything was wrong. Maybe the doctors were wrong! Maybe! I hadn't had any bleeding for almost 24 hours, and I still *felt* pregnant. How could the baby really be gone if I wasn't bleeding and I still felt nauseous as soon as I woke up? But I know that line of thinking only leads to more sorrow and crazy making. I saw the lack of heartbeat and blood flow with my own two eyes. There isn't any coming back from that. So I took the pills.
Then my mom called. I had been dreading this, dreading having more conversations about the miscarriage, more conversations about how sorry she is. She's sorry, I'm sorry, everyone's sorry. It doesn't change anything, it just brings my mind back to it all. Sorrysorrysorry. But then something weird happened. She told me that she was leaving work and coming to spend the day with me so that I wouldn't have to be alone. And suddenly, that's exactly what I wanted. I wanted to sit with my mom, and have someone to talk to, someone to be sad and sorry with. So she came over, and it just kind of changed the tenor of the day. It still sucked, but it sucked less because my mom was there. She made me lunch and got me Sprite when I got sick to my stomach, and we watched completely trashy daytime TV, and it was still one of the worst days ever, but it wasn't nearly as bad as it would have been otherwise. I survived.
So now I'm here and I know that I'm going to be okay and that someday we'll try it again. I guess that will be good, but right now I can't even wrap my head around that. Trying again, like it's some test I failed, but can retake.
But I guess I have faith that I won't always feel this way, that it will get muffled and then just be something I think about from time to time.
Question to self: what do I do with those first ultrasound pictures? I was saving them for a scrap book, but now what? I don't really feel like I can throw them away, but is it morbid to hang on to them?
Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 10-27-2010 at 03:01 PM.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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(((HUGS))) I've had several m/c. It is not morbid at all to save those u/s pictures. I still have every single one of mine. ((HUGS))
Thanks for the hugs and reassurance, ShiningLight.
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For some reason, I keep thinking about all of the things that I can do now. Like, "I can drink coffee now." "I can have a cocktail at my brother's birthday party." "I can order the size 10 bridesmaid's dress for the wedding without wondering if I will have lost the baby weight by then." But the thing is, those little realizations don't make me any happier. For some reason, everytime I think of one, it makes me feel angry. "Yay for stupid freaking coffee and cocktails. That makes it so worth it.*"
All of this is interspersed with the fact that at other times, I keep forgetting that I'm not pregnant any more. I'll think "I can totally have a bowl of ice cream before bed. I'm pregnant! D'oh." Or, I was doing this thing where every time I read an interesting/pretty/weird name or heard one on TV, I would take the name and put it in front of our last name "Brunhilda Jones?" (our last name isn't really Jones.) I find myself still doing that. That makes me mad too.
Basically, I'm mad. Lessee, how many stages of grief can I go through in a week?
Whatever. I don't want to write any more today.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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Drank like half a bottle of red wine last night. That was stupid. It didn't make me feel any better, it just upset my stomach and made it harder to get up this morning. I don't think I'll be going back for the other half tonight.
Our DS (T) is such a perceptive little guy. I don't know what he's overheard, but he told me again last night that "You have a booboo on your tummy. I kiss it and make it better. You'll be okay." Yeah, he's right. I'll be okay.
I packed up his Triceratops costume and sent it to daycare with him this morning. They are having a Halloween party this afternoon, and all of the kids are dressing up. He's so funny. We wanted to teach him to say "Trick or Treat", but it turns out he already knows the phrase. He said "Trick or Treat" and then went on to add "Smell my feet!" Thank you, other children at daycare.
I guess not much is going on. Tonight, DH is going to some teacher's conference. He's been working with a group to help put the conference together for several months, so I'm sure he's glad that it's finally here. T and I will be on our own for dinner, so I was thinking about taking us out for dinner. Special treat.
Tomorrow Jon will be at the conference again, but I think that my parents are going to come and get T and take him for the day. My mom said that she would double check with my dad, but probably. Keeping my fingers crossed. I could use a day to myself to clean and read and sleep.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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Over all, I had a good weekend. Saturday during the day was rough - I just felt so DOWN. Like, the only way I can describe it is that I felt like I was underwater, like trapped at the bottom of a lake or something. I was moving slow, thinking slow, and feeling almost physically weighed down.
Saturday evening, my folks took Kiddo, so DH and I had the evening to ourselves. We decided to go out to dinner, and decided to try some place new. Turns out that we found our new favorite restaurant, completely by chance. So, that was nice, and it actually did lift my spirits quite a bit.
Halloween was nice too. It's one of my favorite holidays, and this year was the first year we took T trick or treating, so that was a lot of fun. I took T up and down the street while DH stayed home and handed out candy, and then T helped hand out candy when we got home. He loved it.
I promised myself that today I was going to try to get back on the horse and start taking good care of myself again. Before I got pregnant, I was working really hard on getting in shape and losing weight. Since July, I have gotten myself down into a healthy BMI weight range, but I still want to lose about another 15-20 lbs (don't worry, this would still be well within the healthy weight range) One of the things that I have actually really loved about losing weight and getting in shape is now much energy and confidence it has given me. Not surprisingly, I just feel better when I take good care of myself (I know, novel concept.) When I got pregnant, I continued to make an effort to eat well, but I'll admit that I definitely got more lax with the treats (as I've said, "I can have a bowl of ice cream before bed! I'm pregnant!") I also scaled down the exercise a bit, preferring to go for long walks rather than running (for the most part - I ran/walked a 5K the day before I lost the baby, and don't you know that I will probably ALWAYS think about that.)
Then, for the past week, I have sat on my couch and pretty much done nothing, and ate whatever. Couldn't be bothered to care.
So I promised myself that I would get back on that horse today. I think that the best way to heal myself (both physically and emotionally) is to start making a conscious effort to make healthy choices again. Start living my life again. Focus on my goals, rather than my sadness. So that's the plan. Wish me luck.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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I went for a run last night after work. Sort of. I pretty much took a month off, and it is amazing how much stamina I had lost already. I had to alternate running and walking, expecially up The Big Hill (this hill is a monster - it takes like 5 minutes non-stop to run to the top.) I had to stop about 3/4's of the way up The Big Hill and walk the rest of the way up because I felt like I was going to die.
Even so, it felt good to get out in the fall air and stretch my legs. It was a perfect day for it - cool (which is great for running) but bright and clear. I want to restore my connection to and faith in my body, and exercise is such a vital way to do that. My mind felt so clear while I was out there - not stuck in sadness or anxiety or even thinking about the day to day stuff (laundry, cooking, work), just calm and clear. One foot in front of the other, and that's it. It was nice.
It let me blow off some steam and come home and be a nicer, calmer Mommy and Wife. And I think...I think that if I were to use this loss as a reason to self destruct, in a way, that would be kind of disrespecting the child I lost. If that makes any sense. So maybe the flip side is true, taking care of myself is a way to honor that child. I don't know, it probably doens't make sense to anyone else. I guess it doesn't have to - the point is, it made me feel a little better. And that's a good thing. I'm going to keep it up.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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Ugh. Denial has to be the most insidious phase of the grieving process.
Yesterday, I was looking at information about miscarriages online. I don't really know why. What else do I need to know? I think I just wanted to read, again, that my odds are really pretty good of having a normal healthy pregnancy next time. So then, I stumbled across the term "misdiagnosed miscarriage" which, through a series of increasingly ill advised links and Google searches led me to a web site devoted to "misdiagnosed miscarriages." That is, cases where the doctor told the woman that she had miscarried, and then some weeks later it was discovered that she had a healthy normal fetus still thriving away in her womb.
The site was helpfully divided up into categories, including "no heartbeat, after seeing a heartbeat the first time." Just like me! I read the stories of at least 5 women, all of whom saw a heartbeat on an ultrasound at about 6-7 weeks, only to see NO heartbeat at about 8 weeks. All of them decided to let the miscarriage happen naturally, or pushed for a second opinion, and were vindicated when their healthy fetuses were detected on a second ultrasound.
Yeah, that's totally the kind of story that's good for my mental health right now.
Now I can think about:
-Did I kill my baby by running that 5K (I know, everyone has told me that this could not be the case, but the timing continues to haunt me)?
-Did I kill my baby by not pushing for a second opinion and taking the abortion pill when, in fact, my baby was totally fine and just temporarily missing a heartbeat or bloodflow...somehow.
Yeah. Okay, but that's not even the worst part. The worst part is that THEN I started reading about how sometimes a woman will be carrying twins, and she'll miscarry one twin, and the other (living) twin is hiding behind the miscarried twin. So I started thinking about what if this time, it was twins? Twins run in my family! My mom's a twin! And the blood and clotting and everything that resulted from the pills, that was the (already) dead twin, and the living twin miraculously survived! I could still be pregnant! I even Googled the effects of the abortion pill on a surviving baby (according to internet message boards, some babies do survive the pill, and if they survive they aren't harmed by it) and also the effects of Percoset on a fetus ('cause I also took Percoset that day.) Okay, totally crazy right?
Yep. I can admit that thoughts like that (and going so far as to do research as a result of thoughts like that) are CRAZY. And not helpful. And sad.
And it all boils down to this...I thought that I was making my peace with this thing. I thought I was getting myself into a healthier place, running, and eating well, and journaling. And all that stuff may be good (it can't hurt anyway) but I'm not there yet. I'm still messed up enough by this that I'm sorely sorely tempted to hang my hopes on wild totally improbable internet inspired theories. I even asked myself if I should avoid alcohol on my brother's birthday, "just in case." Okay Alissa, drink or don't drink, but don't NOT drink because you think (despite OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary) that you maybe possibly in some crazy medical mystery kind of way might still be pregnant.
I never thought that I was the type to bury my head in denial - to believe something because I *wanted* to believe it. But now I see how tempting that is.
I'm not well.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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Feeling slightly less psycho today. I woke up super early on Thursday with these wild thoughts in my head like "Maybe I could just call my ob/gyn and bump up my follow up appointment from Tuesday (the 9th) to today or tomorrow. That way, they can tell me once and for all that I'm not pregnant, and then I can accept it and move on. As soon as they open, I'll call them. I'm sure they won't mind moving it up a couple of days. What's a couple of days?"
I didn't call them. Thankfully by 8:30, I was feeling more...I dunno...rational...less wild and fuzzed up. I know I'm not pregnant. It's awful, I wish I was, but I'm not. I don't need to move up my appointment so they can tell me that again. They already told me once that I lost the baby. How drawn out and painful does this have to be for everybody involved?
I think that part of it is just that I feel like I can't talk about it to anyone. Yes, everyone who would care knows, and I know that they would listen patiently if I approached them. But, what can I even say, and how many times can I say it before it starts to wear thin on the listener? "I'm so sad. I wish I was still pregnant; I wish the baby was alive and well. I wish this never happened. I think about it all day every day." Seriously, all of that is so painful and simple and obvious - how do I even say it out loud? Who would I say it to?
I know this is going to get better someday. I know I won't always feel as bad as I do right now. I just have to hang on until then.
Last edited by Alissa_Sal; 11-05-2010 at 06:46 PM.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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My two week check up is tomorrow. I'm glad. I don't know why, but I guess I feel like once that is done with, I can close the book on this. Like....as long as there is still stuff to do and things to take care of, in a way I'm still having a miscarriage. But once everything is done, then I can say that I *had* a miscarriage and be done with it.
The weekend was very up and down. Saturday night we went to a Murder Mystery Playhouse (they do dinner and a murder mystery that the audience has to solve) with Jon, my brother and his fiance, and Shanna. It was so much fun, I laughed more and felt better than I have in weeks. On the other hand, on Saturday morning Jon turned on that Pixar movie "Up" which I hadn't seen, and told me "Watch this part; it's really sad but really good." It was a montage showing this couple's life together, including when they met, fell in love, got married, et cetera. There was this part that implied that they either were expecting a baby and lost it, or were infertile. Anyway, I totally lost it while watching that, and kept losing it (like, I kept tearing up) throughout the day, including at my Zumba class. Nice. Nothing like fighting back tears in front of a bunch of women doing aerobics to latin dance music over a Pixar movie. Then on Sunday we watched the episodes of The Office where Pam and Jim have their baby (we're like a season behind.) This also brought on more chin trembling and rapid blinking. Good times.
Whatever, I think I'm just about done ruminating about this. It feels so..."not me"....to just sit and dwell and feel bad and sorry for myself all of the time. I want to be done with it.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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I went to my two week check up this morning. The trauma continues. My body has not "expelled" the fetus. The cramping and bleeding and clotting of the past two weeks have just been a kind of charming side note - I am, in fact, still miscarrying. Perfect. Soooo, I guess my stupid body is as bad at miscarriage as it is at pregnancy. Perfect. Perfectperfectperfect.
I'm so MAD right now. I don't even know who or what I'm mad at, but OH I am MAD.
At least I'm not in denial anymore. I saw the baby again on the ultrasound, and I saw again that there was no heartbeat or bloodflow. It hasn't grown since the last ultrasound two weeks ago. The baby is really and truly gone, and at least I feel like I can really and truly accept that. So I guess that's one good thing. But seriously, how long does this ordeal have to drag on?
The doctor told me that I could try getting a shot and suppositories of the same hormone that they gave me last time, to try again to see if they could get my body to do what it needs to do. Or I could have a D&C. This time, I'm going to go ahead and do the D&C. I just want it to be over, and I don't want any more uncertainty. I just want it to be done with. So they are going to try to get me in for a D&C on Friday.
-Alissa, mom to Tristan (5) and Reid (the baby!)
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I am as noturnal as it gets. I hate the daytime, and mornings...uughhh. O_o I love the night ^_^
Haha... I'm a night person. Main Street at midnight? Oh, it's a peaceful scene, lemme tell ya. Just a few night birds wandering the streets, and nothing but a coffee shop is open.
I am as noturnal as it gets. I hate the daytime, and mornings...uughhh. O_o I love the night ^_^
much love to socketto...what of this mongrel architect, our broken armor soon will set, past, present, and future tense...
A day person, I can't help waking up earlier than most people, and stay awake later than most...
Im a night person as well...but i can be a morning person....takes alot to put me to sleep...when im awake, its so hard for me to sleep unless im super bored
AH the light! She burns!lol I am a night person. People think I am wierd cuz I wear shorts in 30 and below degree weather!
I dont care what you hate, put it in your sig again and your gone-Administration
im both night and day, then the next night and day I sleep
'Cause you give me something / That makes me scared, alright / This could be nothing / But I'm willing to give it a try / Please give me something
'Cause someday I might call you from my heart
i'm an... evening person. i love it when the sun begins to set and everything's so peaceful... ^_^ but if you must categorize it, i'm more of a night person. i get jumpy in the day. at night is the time when i can relax...
*comes out of the shadows*Well Im more of a shadow person so naturally I like the dark...but light is good for the soul...oah and I got to get up for work... but most of my free time is spent in the dark/night hummm yeah Im a night person definatly*seeps back into the shadows*


text:
Should I worry if my toddler doesn't talk much?
My toddler babbles a lot but he only says a few understandable words and not very often. The pediatrician says he's doing fine and that all kids develop at different rates, but I know he's not talking as much as other kids his age. I'd love to hear from parents of reluctant talkers on what they do to encourage their children, when their kids finally did start talking, and any other advice to help me cope.
Posted: 02/25/2003 by a BabyCenter Member
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One of the motheres on here asked for advice on getting rid of the pacifier. A friend of mine said taht she cut the nipples so that they deflated and didn't feel the same when sucked on. Her daughter just didn't want them anymore. My son is a thumb sucker... so I haven't been able to try this.posted 01/09/2009 by lpiippo
I definitely understand. I have a 3 year who can hold a complete sentence with you and can remember things that happened months ago. But I also have a 14 month old that can say words but would rather point and grunt at the things she wants. What's really funny is I have heard her say a sentence like "I wanna go byebye". I think that she is just too stubborn.posted 01/08/2009 by binkyboo2005
My son is about 21 months and says some words but not many consistently.He repeats a word that I say sometimes but then I won't hear it for a while.I was beginning to think he had "forgotten" words but then I hear him say things randomly.He is making noises all the time and babbling but I insisted that we go back at 21 months instead of waiting til he's two. I was an early childhood teacher prior to having him and know that early intervention is key.I will not be dismissed or take the "lets wait it out" answer.If you have concerns push for testing and evaluations.You will kick yourself later for waiting if there was something you could have done sooner.You are the biggest advocate for your child and remember that your doctor only see your child for about 30 minutes every few months so really who knows the child best?I know plenty of children that have had expressive language delays and by K they are fine cause they received early intervention.If your doctor tells you to wait-don't!posted 12/19/2008 by a BabyCenter Member
My 18 month old daughter can say over 70 words (or knows what they are if you ask her to point to them). She loves her picture books. I found a four set kid encyclopedia (ages 5 and up, figuring she'd use it later), but she LOVES pointing to the pictures and naming the animals and their sounds, as well as people, trucks, fruit, bugs, etc. They are "real life" pictures of people, places and things, so I think that helps then when we are out and see these animals or other things. She plays with some of her toys, but prefers her books over anything else. We also talk with her constantly, telling her what we are doing and any time she points to something, we tell her what it is "bus" and she usually won't repeat it at first (almost like she's processing), and then if we say, "can you say bus" she'll repeat "Bah!" Her "s's" on words aren't there yet, as well as some vowels.. For example, "Elmo" is "Ap-o"... For some, I think they talk early, and others "process" and talk later?!posted 11/15/2008 by BabyTLo
my son is 22 months and only says mabye 10 words clearly... he always points and is starting to say a little more... most people say u shouldnt worry till there about 2 years old but its frustrating.posted 11/03/2008 by Mommy_First
by 2 my first son was speaking in full sentences, knew his alphabet, did puzzles, knew his colors and numbers up to 10. My 15 month old just points and grunts. He says mama, dada, baba, ball and a couple of other noises that we recognize but I know he's just sucking up every word he hears and will spit it all out in the long run. everytime he points at an object we repeat the word associated and he moves on to the next thing. (light is his favorite word to hear right now) I'm sure he'll burst into song like his auntie did at 2 years.....hardly said a word until she was two and then sang jingle bells the whole way through. ;)posted 10/17/2008 by cherry_lane
I think some kids just keep quiet until they have something to say. My friend's daughter was 2 and half before she started talking. I mean at 1 year old she said a couple of things inconsistently (sometimes bye-bye, milk,etc.). My friend was starting to worry that something was wrong with her. All of a sudden one day when she was 2 and half years old she just busted out with SENTENCES and hasn't stopped since...LOL Now she is a 17 year old honor student. Straight A's in her allied health honors classes. On a fast track into the medical field (we are hoping for doctor..she is leaning toward physical therapist.....orthopedic specialist would be wonderful). Anyway, my point is it isnt always a problem. if you are worried have your child evaulated. But try not to worry too much.posted 10/15/2008 by way2goma
I have a 15mth old and all seh says is mama, dadda , hi & sometimes sissy , my oldest talked very early . I think sometimes especially when they are the second child the older one does alot of talking for them or just knows wht they want . and it could just be pure laziness.. I'm not worried becuase she understands everything we say to her, and will do things if she is asked or told..posted 09/23/2008 by babygirl .
My son is 17 months. He say's mum, dad, ba ba, and hi. I think that's about it. He gruts and points for everything else. He does have a pacifier in his month alot so I think he likes to just grunt and point. He has a sister that is 29 month old and an older sister who is 11 and a brother who is 18, so they hear plenty of chatter here at home. His sister that is 29 months talks but not a real chatter box. She will just come out with something when she feels like it. She say's her sister and both brothers names very well. Daddy and mommy. Hi, bye, cup, ba ba, cat, dog ,even the dogs names. She can say potty and bunnytown...lol ( what toddler doesn't ??...lol )And I'm sure there is alot more she can say but to me I would think her little brother would speak more because of her being just 1 yr. older, they behave like twins. They wear the same size clothes and all. I do see she is the leader and he relies on her to get him what he wants or needs or to take care of him, which she does.posted 09/02/2008 by NightSpectre
My 1 year old also does not say to many words, and at first I thought that something may be wrong with him because he advanced in other things, but after hearing other parents talking about their children not speaking until after the age of 2 or 3 I didn't worry as much.But I do know of children who have not started speaking because of trouble with their ears. Many times a babies ears can become clogged, which doesn't allow air and sounds to come through. This can lead to problems with speech development.posted 08/27/2008 by Jadens Mom07
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What does IIM mean in Currencies?
This page is about the meanings of the acronym/abbreviation/shorthand IIM in the Regional field in general and in the Currencies terminology in particular.
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"IIM." Abbreviations.com. STANDS4 LLC, 2015. Web. 1 Mar. 2015. <http://www.abbreviations.com/term/63473>.
IIM also stands for:
- implicit indirect measure
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Ferguson Heading To Ireland!
Shane Ferguson could rejoin Birmingham City this week and link up with the club on their pre-season training camp in Ireland.
Ferguson ended last season on loan at St Andrew's, and it seems Blues boss Lee Clark has pipped Wolves to sign Ferguson.
Pardew feels the Northern Ireland international needs more first-team games under his belt before he can realistically challenge for a place on Tyneside.
Source: Newcastle United Mad
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The Real Estate listing at 4017 Carp Rd, Carp, On is no longer available on HomeFinder.ca. See CURRENT REAL ESTATE AVAILABLE in Elm.
Available real estate listings that are similar to 4017 Carp Rd
2099 Carp Rd, Ottawa, ON: $6,000.00
3793 Carp Road, Ottawa, ON: $299,000.00
2900 Carp Rd, Ottawa, ON: $14.00
1139 Carp Rd, Stittsville, ON: $19.00
2079 Carp Rd, Ottawa, ON: $9,889,000.00
2584 Carp Rd, Ottawa, ON: $399,900.00
4017 Saint Antoine West, Montréal, QC: $1,395.00
General Information on 4017 Carp Rd and surrounding area
This real estate property is located at 4017 Carp Rd in Elm (Huntley). Other areas in the vicinity are: Carp, Corkery, Corkery Woods.
4017 Carp Rd is mostly surrounded by single-detached properties with Irish population who owned a home the most dominant in the area.
Ottawa has 4434 homes and condos for sale. Of those, 6 real estate listings are currently available in Elm. The average house price in Ottawa right now is $416,500.


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The bustle of the holidays is over. So now what? With households generating 25% more waste between Thanksgiving and New Year's, that's an additional 6 million tons of trash. Here a few tip to reduce your waste and impact.
- Recycle all corrugated boxes and chipboard. If a box is brown on the inside, the City of Greensboro will accept it. Just remove any plastic or wires.
- Keep and reuse any gift bags and boxes for next year. If possible, do the same for any wrapping paper.
- Recycle Christmas cards (except for photos) or tear off the front of the cards and send to St. Judes Children's Hospital. They will in turn create and sell new cards with proceeds going back to the hospital. You can also use the front of the card as gift tags or other decorations.
- Keep photo cards to enjoy for future holidays. Punch a hole in the corner and put on a key ring or any larger metal ring for easy storage and review.
- Donate your Christmas tree to the Natural Science Center. They will place in the exhibits and hide treats in the branches for the animals.
- Plan ahead for next year. Consider purchasing gift bags made of cloth and wrapping paper from recycled materials and earth-friendly ink. Forgo the bag of bows and trim packages with fabric ribbon for reuse later on.
What other ideas do you have to share. Leave a comment below!


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The House Education Committee gathered input from the school boards' association, the state's largest teacher union and others about three legislative proposals. A committee vote could occur as early as next month.
Carolyn Dumaresq, Gov. Tom Corbett's acting secretary of education, told lawmakers the administration supports allowing economic furloughs as well as replacing seniority rules with a system that protects from furloughs those teachers who are ranked as the most effective in the classroom.
"If we are truly committed to graduating students who are college and workforce ready, then we need to ensure that we have a strong teaching staff, teachers whose performance reflect a focus on student achievement," Dumaresq said.
The state does not currently allow economic furloughs of instructional staff unless enrollment has fallen substantially, schools are consolidated or reorganized, or programs are cut because too few students take certain classes or educational standards have changed.
Cost-cutting over the past three years resulted in the loss of thousands of teaching jobs, and school expert say some schools have been forced to eliminate entire programs, such as foreign languages, because of limits on economic layoffs.
The head of the Pennsylvania State Education Association union, Michael Crossey, said the proposals could prompt schools to target high-salaried veterans for layoffs. He said the current system to fire bad teachers works well.
"An educator's experience in pedagogical skills and navigating the classroom environment matters," Crossey said. "And yet, there appears to be an assumption by some that experience is a liability instead of an asset."
Education Chairman Paul Clymer, R-Bucks, said after the hearing that he hoped to meld the three proposals into something that a majority can support. A similar bill did not get out of committee during the last legislative session.


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County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust do not capture and store any personal information about individuals who access this web site, except where you voluntarily choose to give us your personal details via email, or by using an electronic form, or enquiring about any of our services.
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We do not pass any of your personal data to outside organisations and/or individuals, except with your express consent.
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So Disrespectful
Dec 29th, 2006, 06:30 AM
What a fantastic Hopman Cup opener! If both players are at their best it should be a pretty even contest. Alicia has had match play from the WC playoff and we know she's in good physical shape, so Nadia should be prepared for a very good match.
So exciting! :bounce:
So exciting! :bounce:


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I'm working with my JS files, what i have now is a unique php file with JS header, if a variable is set it includes the real js file, which is fine.
The "home" page has the script tag for the php-js file:

the bottstrap.php file has something like:
if(isset($hostData) && !empty($hostData)) {
}else {
echo "document.write('<bold>PLEASE DO SOMETHING...!</bold>');";
all that seems to be fine, however when viewing the source code (CTRL+U) the browser shows the "bootstrap.php" part as a link, if clicked it obviously redirects to http://mydomain/bootstrap.php and the js code can be easily seen, which is exactly what i don't want...
So my question is, is there any php-way to know if the file is being loaded from browser's "rendering view" or being loaded from browser's "source code view" ???
Any help is truly appreciated =)


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What would have happened if Ruffa had eloped with Robin?
Robin and Ruffa got close on the set of Lab Kita�Bilib Ka Ba? (1994). Unfortunately, there were several obstacles that kept them from getting any closer. For starters, Ruffa's mom Anabelle Rama wasn't exactly into Robin. That was also the same year that Robin got arrested. Still, rumor had it that he had gone as far as proposing to Ruffa.
Robin and Kris are now co-hosts of ABS-CBN's newest noontime show.
Kris was 18 when Robin, then in his early 20s, became her boyfriend. Rumor had it that the two had planned to elope. They eventually broke up because Robin was still in his "unstable" stage back then. In 2003, Kris and Robin made a movie whose title described their former relationship, You and Me Against the World. They're now co-hosts of ABS-CBN's new noontime show Pilipinas Win na Win
We have our own right to love and be happy so just leave robin and mariel alone. They deserve to be happy!!!Dec 09 2010 @ 11:25am Reply
Masyadong maikli ang Top 10 na list para kay Binoy. Wala ba ang 2 Joyce, Bb. Joyce Bernal at Joyce Jimenez?Sep 16 2010 @ 02:59pm Reply
I don't think this top listing thing is good. Nakakahiya ipagkalat na maraming babae nababoy ang buhay ng isang lalake..sana di ito maranasan ng mga anak niyang babae...Aug 19 2010 @ 04:50pm Reply
Bakit naman walang kwentang lalaki si Binoe? Eh STUD nga siya, eh halos lahat ng magagandang babae gusto mag-pa buntis sa kanya.Di ibig sabihin desirable siya, kanais-nais,di ba? kung baga sa kabayo, mahal bayad diyan for breeding purposes.Thoroughbreed iyan eh, gets mo?Aug 19 2010 @ 12:22pm Reply
Dinadaan na lang ni binoe ang kakulangan ng pagkatao nya sa BABAE.isang ehemplo ng walang kwentang lalaki ,kapag matanda na yan,un huling babae ang swerte,katulad ni dolphy.Aug 19 2010 @ 10:42am Reply
evidently,robin is one sucker for sweet looking females who can understand his philandering ways and make baby souvenirs..quite a casanova!Aug 16 2010 @ 04:35pm Reply
Tama ka diyan Pare ko. Pero sa kaso ni Robin eh Muslim yata siya, pwede sa Reliyun nila ang dalawampung asawa ,basta kaya daw ng bulsa...kaya naman maraming gustong mag pa-asawa ki Robin...iba na ang matulis ano?Aug 15 2010 @ 11:23am Reply -
hay naku.. mga artista nga naman. dapat piliin if sino ang dapat gawing idol// pag immorality paguusapan. nangunguna sila. ilan ilan lang ang nsa maayos na katayuan.. nawala laht paghanga ko kay mariel. dati sinasamba ko sya sa clean image nya, ipagpatayan ko pa sya.now. ewan ko. good luck sa inyo ni robin padilla. dalangin ko na wag ka iiwan ni robin.. don't forget to pray mariel.. di na kita idol..
gusto ko lang malaman niyo na nagmamahalan sila ni mariel sana man lang respito sa kanila dahil hindi nman sila nangingialam sa buhay niy0. anong karapatan niyong mang husga sa taong nagmamahal? ang nakaraan ay nakaraan wag niyong e ulit pa nakakasakit na kayu ng damdamin ng tao.Aug 26 2013 @ 07:36pm Reply
my sympathy for liezl.. uo nga nman. ang galing ni robin sa panliligaw kay mariel. isinisigaw sa buong mundo. sana ganun din nya ipinagsigawan ang paamamahal nya sa pamilya nya.. sa mga anak nya kay ms. leizl na who stood on his side , during his worst time. i salute u liezl. u deserved to be happy too. yaan mo na si robin sa crazy na pagmamahal nya kay mariel. for now lang yan.. next scene,, iba na nman. praise allah!Aug 15 2010 @ 08:29am Reply
i mean , i have nothing aganst binoy at mariel-- but mariel pls. this time be with yourself. sinayang mo ang panahon nyo ni zanjo-- what's happening to you girl.. desente ka.. image mo .. pls. wag mo nman sirain image mo sa pagpatol s pamilyadong tao.. godbless you./.Aug 15 2010 @ 08:22am Reply
Bkit pag-artista, ok lang sa lipunan ang maraming naging babae o naging lalaki? Bkit pag-ordinaryong tao, condemned agad ng lipunan na masama ang maging babaero o maraming lalaki sa buhay? D ba unfair?Aug 14 2010 @ 06:23pm Reply
i love Robin and Mariel..naalala ko tuloy nong niligawan ako ng asawa ko..Aug 14 2010 @ 12:50pm Reply
@Uragon Blues. Di ba nga, mas bagay kay robin yung crew cut, doon sa Trust condom billboard niya sa EDSA? Parang ang bango bango niya. ang sarap papakin. Leather jacket palang, ulam na! Ang swerte ni Mariel! Mariel, balato naman diyan. Kahit isang tenga lang. (Ano yan? Ulo ng lechon? Basta crispy, Pwede na. Kanin lang ang katapat niyan.Aug 13 2010 @ 11:23pm Reply
writing about one's promiscuity on the Daily Inquirer, proudly announcing it on her trashy talk shows and doing it repetitively--- mentioning the "affair" in EVERY single article and show--- does not show intelligence at all. attention deficit, maybe but not intelligence...even robin had a flash of bad taste at one point in his colored lifeAug 13 2010 @ 10:13am Reply
Ito na Break mo,KAGATIN MO! LOL! but I like Robin as poster boy for condoms and the Family Planning program of the Gov't. Do you think Binoe will catch the fancy of Vicky Bello?Aug 12 2010 @ 09:45pm Reply -
winner ka igeramos!
"skyflakes pa rin si Robin. Masarap kahit anong ipatong"Aug 12 2010 @ 08:38pm Reply -
What's wrong with Dolly Anne Carvajal. She's not the daughter of Inday Badiday for nothing! I'll vote for MarBin (Mariel-Robin) or RoVina (Robin-Vina) or RuffaRob (Ruffa-Robin) at least sanay na sa Islamic culture si Ruffa. But Robin-Kris? That would be Ondoy x 1000. In fairness, at 40+ Robin is still crunchy. Kahit sabay sabay pa silang lahat, fresh Skyflakes pa rin si Robin. Malutong, kahit anong ipatong.Aug 12 2010 @ 04:19pm Reply
in fairness pretty at sophisticated si dolly anne pag nakita niyo sa personal.Aug 12 2010 @ 06:31am Reply
..Naku po bubuntisin lang ni Robin yan si Mariel eh kung hinde naman, pagsawa na iiwan na.
..Kaya hinde natuloy yung movie ni Robin at Toni G. ay dahil guarded si Toni at hinde papatolkay Binoe.Aug 11 2010 @ 04:52pm Reply -
hey!! why wasnt moi in the list !! I shudve been there..hahaha:P just kidding..Aug 11 2010 @ 12:12pm Reply
Hi, Jenny! We read an article saying the same thing. However, we could not find any record of Robin refuting his paternity. Thus, we saw no need to publicize the said conflict. Thanks for reading SPOT.ph! :)Aug 11 2010 @ 06:32am Reply
Robin is not the father of Jobelle Salvador's son. The father is some guy named Erik Espina.
Robin also hooked up with Joyce Jimenez. There was even a rumor that he married her (as Muslims can have 4 wives).Aug 10 2010 @ 11:14pm Reply -
Saw this comment earlier on facebook: "Robin is the epitome of 'makalaglag panty na charm'. Oo nga naman. Fan na ako ni Robin noon pa pero nung napanood ko ung E-Live, mas lalo talaga syang sumarap! LOL. I love the part where he said, "mahalikan kita dyan!"
Haaay Robin! =))Aug 10 2010 @ 03:12pm Reply -
some showbiz columnists/reporters made this comment after the robin-mariel ring thing at E-live : eh sino ba naman ang di pinangakuan at inalok ni robin ng kasal?
lol. oo nga naman.Aug 10 2010 @ 11:34am Reply -
well, siguro nga at first glance parang naligaw sa listahan itong si Dolly Anne. pero once in awhile naghahanap din naman ng intellectual discussion siguro minsan itong si Binoe. tireless lover? napapaisip tuloy ako ... for myself (LOL)Aug 09 2010 @ 07:32pm Reply
Hay naku! Robin Padilla's like wine, the older he gets, the yummier he becomes. I just wonder kung south dakota siya.Aug 09 2010 @ 04:49pm Reply
and I don't think our Macho boy is looking for some intellectual stimulation in his serial relationships,doncha think so? It's fire all the way!Aug 09 2010 @ 03:47pm Reply
...i beg to disagree na sumablay si robin kay dolly ann...she may not be mestiza-looking but she's probably the most intelligent in the list...Aug 09 2010 @ 03:30pm Reply
Matulis talaga itong si Binoy!sumablay lang ko Dolly Ann...well, nine out of ten ain't bad, not bad at all!Aug 09 2010 @ 01:28pm Reply
Haha. Naligaw si Dolly Anne?!
Anyway, aaminin ko.. kinikilig talaga ako dito kay Binoy at Mariel. Sa Wowowee pa lang at lalo na yung sa E-live! Kung saan sila masaya, go lang! They deserve that.Aug 09 2010 @ 11:48am Reply -
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ONLY ON 3: Neighbors complain about dangers from barSome neighbors say a Wilmington bar is causing major problems, including shootings and drug use, but the bar owner says his business is going above and beyond to improve the community. Disclaimer: Comments posted on this, or any story are opinions of those people posting them, and not the views or opinions of WWAY NewsChannel 3, its management or employees. »End zoneSubmitted by Mandi (not verified) on Thu, 02/16/2012 - 8:48pm.
Interesting....How does a bar that has more complaints filed than crimes committed than the surrounding neighborhood "clean up" the neighborhood. I believe the building owner is delusional. The bar owner is irresponsible! »
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Wigan Athletic Football Club
- Nickname:Latics
- Founded:1932
- Manager:Owen Coyle
- Ground:JJB Stadium
- Capacity:25000
- Last Game: 21-Apr-2014 15:00
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King handed 18-month jail term
29 Oct 2009 - 17:11:00
Wigan Athletic striker Marlon King has been jailed for 18 months after being found guilty of causing actual bodily harm for assaulting a woman in a London nightclub.
The 29-year-old has been punished for punching a student in the face in the Revue Bar in Soho last December.
King had insisted that he was the victim of mistaken identity, but the jury decided that the footballer was the perpetrator of the attack, while he was also found guilty of sexual assault.
Latics chairman Dave Whelan confirmed on hearing the verdict that King will be sacked by the Premier League club.
He told Sky Sports News: "We have to follow the rules and regulations, which means we will have to give him 40 days' notice that his contract will be cancelled.
"He is absolutely sacked - we will not tolerate football players who get sent to jail for 18 months.
"As far as we are concerned, he is finished with football at Wigan Athletic."
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Belgium rising
Belgian talent is taking over the field
This story appears in the June 25 Debate Issue of ESPN The Magazine. Subscribe today!
BELGIUM, A TINY NATION comprising bickering factions of French and Flemish speakers (who have threatened to secede), could use a little unity, the kind of bonding best forged over football. Unfortunately, the Belgians haven't qualified for a major tournament since 2002 and missed the cut for Euro 2012.
Still, Belgium's prospects are looking up. Its latest export, Chelsea's new 21-year-old midfielder, Eden Hazard, is the most promising player in a startling generation of talent from a country of fewer than 11 million people. "Belgium has become a reservoir of talent for all of the big leagues in Europe," says
That's no accident. When the advent of free agency in the mid-'90s drained the Belgian pro league of talent, the national federation began doubling down on the future. "The federation realized that our youth development was structurally poor," De Sart says. So the national teams made elite coaches available to supplement the training of the very best young players and encouraged clubs like Standard Liege and Anderlecht to put money into their academies.
The products of those investments are now entering their collective prime. Last season, Vincent Kompany (Manchester City), Hazard (Lille), Jan Vertonghen (Ajax) and Kevin Mirallas (Olympiacos) each claimed player of the year honors in England, France, the Netherlands and Greece, respectively. Even Belgium's original golden generation of the 1980s is in awe. "I think this is the best talent Belgium has ever had," says Leo Van der Elst, whose shootout winner sent Belgium to the semifinals of the '86 World Cup, the country's best finish. But the old guard winces at the new wave's entitled behavior, which caused the entire medical staff of the national team to quit in 2009. "Our strength was our unity," Van der Elst says. "There are more egos now."
As Europe's top clubs continue to splurge on Belgian prospects, those egos may only grow. Still, with a wealth of technically adept attackers on high-profile teams, this new golden generation has the firepower to finally live up to its potential. It could be the difference between spending 2014 in Brussels or Brazil.
Follow The Mag on Twitter (@ESPNmag) and like us on Facebook.
ESPN The Magazine: June 25, 2012
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- Tennis: Andy Murray's shot at a major


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SMETHPORT ŌĆō A Smethport man is asking the McKean County Board of Commissioners to rescind a resolution setting 2013 ŌĆ£assessment ratesŌĆØ for properties enrolled in the state-authorized ŌĆ£Clean and GreenŌĆØ tax-relief program.
Speaking Monday at a commissionersŌĆÖ meeting, Jim Herzog said the resolution adopted two weeks ago ŌĆ£probably is not appropriate.ŌĆØ
ŌĆ£IŌĆÖd like to see you rescind it,ŌĆØ Herzog told Commissioners Joe DeMott, Al Pingie and Cliff Lane.
Herzog specifically challenged a section of the resolution that sets the assessment rate for ŌĆ£Clean and Green Forest ReserveŌĆØ property at $255 per acre.
Herzog, who said he owns property with timber, claims the ŌĆ£forest reserveŌĆØ assessment rate in McKean County should be only $94 per acre for ŌĆ£Clean and Green (C&G).ŌĆØ
According to his two-page statement read at the meeting, Herzog said the $94-per-acre rate is ŌĆ£lowest fair market and use value.ŌĆØ
ŌĆ£This is the use value that should be applied to C&G enrolled forestŌĆönot $255 per acre,ŌĆØ he said. Herzog claims ŌĆ£a use value above fair market value is not permittedŌĆØ under the 38-year-old C&G program.
The State Legislature in 1974 adopted a law that allows parcels of 10 acres or more of agricultural and forest land to be assessed at a value for that ŌĆ£useŌĆØ rather than at the standard ŌĆ£fair market value.ŌĆØ
The intent of the law is to provide tax relief to encourage property owners to retain their farms and forests rather than sell the land for development.
ŌĆ£The general public benefits from the preservation of our farmlands, woodlands and the future heritage of our land,ŌĆØ the law points out.
The C&G assessment rates adopted two weeks ago by the commissioners reflect 2006 recommendations from a panel established to review the program.
Angie Tennies, chief assessor for the county, said the resolution adopted by the commissioners is ŌĆ£addressing uniformity issues with Clean and Green.ŌĆØ
ŌĆ£Everybody will be set at the base rate that McKean County currently has in place for Clean and Green property,ŌĆØ Tennies told the commissioners last month.
She said the county currently has 3,219 parcels enrolled in C&G. She said the tax relief granted under the C&G program results in a loss of $752,411 in annual county revenue.
Owners of property enrolled in C&G have the right to appeal their assessments to the county Board of Assessment Appeals.
According to Herzog, a ŌĆ£use valueŌĆØ of $94 per acre for ŌĆ£forest reserveŌĆØ properties was set in 2011 by the Board of Assessment Appeals for ŌĆ£those properties that appealed.ŌĆØ
After the meeting, DeMott said the commissioners would ŌĆ£takeŌĆØ HerzogŌĆÖs request to rescind the C&G rate resolution ŌĆ£under advisement.ŌĆØ
See full article by purchasing the July 10 edition of The Kane Republican.


text: 3 Black Ops 2 It's worse but you'll probably get it anywayPosted: 29/12/2012Over the years the Call of Duty brand has been a game that I would buy on the date of it's release but sadly each game has gotten progressively worse. This game is no exception to that rule.The Campaign:It gives you little to do and follows the typical shot and boot style with a cinematic affect that the game heavily relies on. Sadly the campaign is worse than ever. After slightly improving over the years it has hit rock bottom again. Although if you're easily distracted by it's cinematic filler and don't actually like doing much you'll probably enjoy it.Multiplayer:Easily the worst of the lot. The maps are genuinely terrible. The weapons are equally terrible. Often you will find that the SMG classes are in full session. The customisation is unnecessary and messy although if it is used in the right way you can make some fairly useful classes.the Zombies:I would say this was the only reason I really wanted this game, it's similar to the rest of the zombie modes on previous games but they've added a few things. The problem with this mode is if you're serious about getting to the really high levels it takes alot of time and commitment to get everyone set up with the right weapons, turn the power on and get everyone their perks. The only real problem with this mode is that private matches no longer go on the leader board so if you don't have 4 players that you know can play as a team online at the time then you'll have to trust some random player. Which could be a 8 year old for all you know.YEAH I KNOW YOU BUY YOUR KIDS THIS STUFF.NOW STOP IT.Buy them a colouring book.


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06-29-2013, 09:37 AM | #1 (permalink) |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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To all those who ride, please click this thread.
Gentlemen and Ladies,
Just wanna say that I'm very proud of you guys. To be interested in snowboarding is a very hard commitment, especially when that thing called summ*asshole*er comes around. I'm very proud of you. To delay instant gratification instead of playing video games or doing stupid indoor stuff takes a lot of patience. Keep it up. President Barack obamer |
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06-29-2013, 01:51 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Fire on Ice...and Powder!
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Umm, what?
Follow these instructions: Put the drugs away. Step away from the keyboard. Lie down until clear thought returns. Good luck. Last edited by GreyDragon; 06-29-2013 at 01:53 PM. |
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Community Picks -- Sandwiches
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Steven J. Mehlman, Managing Partner of the Business and Real Estate Group for Northern Caliifornia of Kimball, Tirey St. John LLP. Mr. Mehlman has been... more
i hired steve to settle a collection dispute.he did a good job.he was fast,kept me informed of the day to day status and saved me some money.he also...
Posted by: Terry S, about 3 years ago.
3 endorsements
Steven is an excellent real estate lawyer and a pleasure to work with.
I endorse this lawyer. Excellent business attorney.
34 years since Steven Jeffrey Mehlman was first licensed to practice law.
We have not found any instances of professional misconduct for this lawyer.


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Press Release Distribution |
Filter News Show All ResultsNews By Country None FoundNews By Tag Lisa Montalto
| lisa montalto Press ReleasesBy Wicked Weird Hollywood LIsa Montalto introduces Wicked Weird Hollywood as the new umbrella, covering Wicked Weird Productions and industry news. From screenwriting to promos, trailers, and packaging, Wicked Weird Hollywood is a respected source for indie film productions. By Wicked Weird Hollywood Lisa Montalto took 2 things to LA from the east coast; a little bit of spunk and the catch phrase "wicked" which means extremely good!! Wicked Weird Productions is now part of Wicked Weird Hollywood, covering everything Hollywood under one umbrella. Page updated every 10 minutes |


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Addie's birthday is on December 14th, which in theory doesn't sound like Christmas at all. In reality December 14th is eleven days before Christmas. From Addie's very first birthday I have made every effort to keep her birthday and Christmas completely separate. Before December 15th our Christmas tree is a "birthday tree" and houses only presents wrapped in non-holiday paper.
I have made her a cake every year and it is generally the centerpiece of the entire day. I had one very fancy birthday cake when I was little and I remember it very well. I have a treasured picture of me behind my teddy bear cake with a giant toothless grin on my 7th birthday. I keep a lot of things simple but birthday cakes? Not so much. I have made three princess cakes (complete with fondant skirts and Barbies sticking out of them) and this year is no different.
Her tastes are becoming ever more eclectic but she still loves everything I bake so this year I've been trying to find a cake that she will love to take a picture with and love to look at 22 years from now and remember (hopefully) how fun birthdays were when she was little.
After the jump are a few of the nominees…
Need more sweet treats? Check out our top 50 dessert recipes!


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Bug Reporting » missing manga pages
righto, thanks :)
"Bertmasta said:haha, im not saying dont discuss im saying its just an anime like every other it doesnt need singled out because its a bit more popular"right lets be straight. naruto is not the be all and end all of anime people can like it, people dont have to, just like every other anime, it doesnt need special treatment positive or negative"So? It's an Anime/Manga site. I want to express my opinions on Naruto and discuss it."
"If you know me from CV, you know that I'm not a huge fan of anime.damn ye Berserk! well maybe not the anime but the manga, well both are good i guess
However, the stuff I do like, I love.
Battle Angel
Princess Monenoke (spell check)
Fist of the North Star
Ghost in the Shell
There's a few others, just can't think of them right now."


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Hi! I'm Cecilia Gray. I'm happy you're here, even if you got here by mistake. Stick around anyway.
You can get to know me by my books (to the left), my bio (up top) or my pics, videos and posts (below). I'm pretty much into anything about books, San Francisco, and food.
trips, travels; and daily-life videos
ALA Road Trip Summer 2014
An Austen-Inspired Day
random rants and raves
My Fav 2014 Things
Why Ouija is the Best Girl-Power Movie I've Seen This Year (srsly)
Can We Talk About…Fall 2014 TV: Black-ish?
Can We Talk About…Fall 2014 TV: Forever?
Can We Talk About…toothpicks behind a guy's ear?
Can We Talk About…Guardians of the Galaxy?
TFIOS, Terminator, and Tears
top 5 reasons to retell jane austen's stories
analyzing unlikable: an emma case study
movie vs book comparisons (with spoilers)
The Great Gatsby
Jane Eyre
The Hunger Games
Pride and Prejudice
select fav instagram photos inspired by books
"Love is louder than the pressure to be perfect."~ Stay Strong. Demi Lovato.
Medusa ~ Metamorphoses. Ovid.
"If the world comes to an end, I'm going to want cookies." ~ Life As We Knew It. Susan Beth Pfeffer.
"I dissolved in the sea." ~ Long Day's Journey into Night. Eugene O'Neills.
"To be fond of dancing was a certain step towards falling in love." ~ Pride and Prejudice. Jane Austen.
"I'll bring you tea and honey until you do." ~ Winnine-the-Pooh. A.A. Milne.
"Once there was a tree, and she loved a boy." ~ The Giving Tree. Shel Silverstein.
I love it when a book comes to life. Especially when it's a cookbook. ~ Me!
"You know, at times like this one feels, well, perhaps extinct animals should be left extinct." ~ Jurassic Park. Michael Crichton.
"She loves the serene brutality of the ocean, loves the electric power she felt with every breath of wet, briny air." ~ Tithe. Holly Black.
"I speak for the trees. I speak for the trees for the trees have no tongues." ~ The Lorax. Dr. Seuss.
Austen Related Programming
In case you're no Sherlock, I have a thing for Jane Austen so I talk about Jane Austen a lot in social media. Lo and behold…
tumblr post: top 5 reasons to retell jane austen's stories
tumblr post: analyzing unlikable: an emma case study
guest blog: how to fake being an Austen fan
guest blog: writing lessons from a Jane Austen movie adaptation
guest blog: the first time I read Austen
youtube video: comparing the movie and the book: Pride and Prejudice
youtube video: an Austen-inspired day
youtube video: Pride and Prejudice recut as a horror movie trailer