Visas for entrepreneurs - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/node/21556636 <comment><USER2> 2 days ago, Startup Act 2.0 was introduced to the house floor (a).

The highlights of the act, which include many of the suggestions in this thread-

1 - Create a new STEM visa so that U.S.-educated foreign students who graduate with a master's or Ph.D. in science, technology, engineering or mathematics can receive a green card and stay in this country where their talent and ideas can fuel growth and create American jobs.

2 - Establish an Entrepreneur's Visa for legal immigrants so they can remain in the United States, launch businesses and create jobs, and eliminates the per-country caps for employment-based immigrant visas, which hinders U.S. employers from recruiting the top-tier talent they need to grow.

3 - Make permanent the exemption of capital gains taxes on the sale of startup stock held for at least five years, so investors can provide financial stability at a critical juncture of firm growth.

4 - Create a targeted research and development tax credit for young startups less than five years old and with less than $5 million in annual receipts. This R&D credit is designed to allow startups to offset employee taxes, freeing up resources to help these young companies expand and create jobs.

5 - Use existing federal R&D funding to better support university initiatives designed to bring cutting-edge R&D to the marketplace more quickly, where it can propel economic growth. Require government agencies to conduct a cost- benefit analysis of proposed "major rules" with an economic impact of $100 million or more.

6 - Direct the U.S. Department of Commerce to assess state and local policies that aid in the development of new businesses.

(a) [http://polis.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=2...](http://polis.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=298355)

<comment><USER3> I agree with most of this with the exception of number 3. While taxes can be a large burden on any firm, new or old, if an investor is selling his/her shares, presumably they are cashing out of their company and stuffing it in their personal bank account. Exemption from taxes at that point just seems more like a handout to those who are already successful rather then a real incentive for investment. Am I missing something here?

<comment><USER2> That particular provision is actually just making permanent a temporary exemption that already exists.

The intention is to increase capital available to startups because of the extra tax incentive for investors.

<comment><USER3> I was aware of that. I don't fully agree with the exemption even as a temporary measure, but I do understand that we are desperately trying to revive our economy and can understand the rationale behind it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The least US could do is to - Get rid of country based quotas for employment based GC immigration, Provide instant GCs for immigrations who get advanced degrees in STEM from top institutes in US

I know a ton of entrepreneurial Indian, Chinese immigrants with advanced degrees (MS/PhDs) from MIT, Stanford, UW etc who are sick and tired of waiting years for their GC (average of 5-7 years wait), so they are not tied to the fate of the employer for their stay in US. Imagine, freeing them for these visa shackles, so they are free to pursue their own ventures, without have to worry about getting kicked out of this country

<comment><USER5> Agreed. As I personally can ratify, it takes a great deal of intellectual and emotional investment to be tied to the fate of our employers. The gamble impacts every aspect of your life, from having a family to buying a car or house. I am incredibly thankful to this country for the opportunity, but I think I've proven I am a good candidate for a Visa that provides me peace of mind.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> So I have gone through this problem personally and it is a HUGE pain. There are only two specified categories of business visas in which enterpreneurs could apply. One is E-2 Investment visa and the other is the EB-5. So as such there is no Entrepreneurship visa is the USA. For the visas above you need to show substantial investment in the US economy which could be anywhere between 50k to 100k for E-2, and over 500k for EB-5, depending on the business.

I got the E-2 visa based on my first company I started and by the time I applied we already had paying customers and orders. I expedited my application and the approval for E-2 came in exactly 15 days.

So its not undoable if you can muster up some money from outside the US. However, if you can only raise from inside the US you are hugely disadvantaged. The other hack to this would be to form a company and apply for an H-1 based on the company, which is hard to get. Once you are on H-1 you can apply for a green card after a certain time period (I think it is 5 years or so but not sure)

<comment><USER7> Could you please elaborate on how did you expedite your application and got your visa in 15 days (if you dont mind). I know couple of my friends who'll be looking for visa sometime soon hence asking.

<comment><USER8> I went through the E-2 process a few years ago. IIRC you can pay an extra $1000 to make your application a "high priority" one, which cuts the guaranteed response time from something like 3 months to 30 days.

When I did it as a high-priority application, I got an initial response saying "we need more data" within 2-3 weeks (from what I remember), then the final approval 2-3 weeks after I submitted that info.

<comment><USER6> I actually got it on the first go which surprised even me. Though it was more of a testament to how thorough my lawyer was.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Why not raise wages and increase on the job training for Americans? This sounds like a subsidy for the college industry and puts them in control of the visas. Concentrating on and fixing things here should create more jobs and lower unemployment should be the focus of any new legislation. Since we already have generous immigration policies AND there's no real hindrance to capital mobility perhaps venture financiers have no real barriers to investing by exploring alternate markets overseas. Why not do the facebook from Africa or South America?

<comment><USER10> I think you're looking at this from a labor perspective, when it's more from a capital perspective.

If (and this is a big if) an entrepreneur gets a visa and hires 1 more person, then it's a good trade from an employment angle.

On top of that, current domestic unemployment statistics are incomplete by just looking at the U-6 number. For programmers and other STEM fields, there is a labor shortage. For workers unemployed from industries generated from the credit bubble, their jobs are unlikely to come back.

And the main barrier to VC money moving to different countries is lack of experience in the area and field.

<comment><USER9> "Labor shortage" ? What evidence is there that there is a labor shortage? I'll buy that there is a mis-match between what employers want to pay and what an employee wants to take.

I suppose there's a prime rib-eye steak shortage. I'm willing to pay $1 for a steak!!! But nobody wants to supply me with it. But if I raise my price to $12, then suddenly I can find many suppliers. Is there a rib-eye steak shortage?

So many "STEM" types work in places like Manhattan, Silicon Valley, Boston, etc. These are high cost of living areas and careers can be very short. $80/K a year can not buy a house. Perhaps the industry's solution is working better with local labor. Henry Ford did it when paid his workers and "outrageous" $5/day. The well paid workers could afford things, like the Ford cars they were making.

Bill Gates and Tim Cook can afford it. So can Sand Hill Road. Pay the going rate.

If American needs more "venture", invest in American Moms and Dads and they'll do great things.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Anyone have any knowledge of how easy these ex-US start-up visa are to get?

It's one thing for a country to have a visa category, but it's another to actually qualify for one.

When I read this: "New Zealand has no specific capital requirement but offers residency to entrepreneurs whose firms are deemed to benefit the country."

I wondered how broad "benefit to the country" is interpreted.

<comment><USER12> As a New Zealander, it probably means whose company is willing to provide the minister with corporate box passes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Be right back, moving to Chile. Knowing several people who've acquired visas, it seems slightly less than the headache it's portrayed as in this article. Admittedly, the US could do better but unless you have funding or partners here already, why would you choose to build a startup in the US when they are never going beat the lucrative options of other countries (many of whom have lower costs of living)?

</comment><comment><USER14> One issue to consider in this public policy issue, as in most public policy issues, is basic economics. "The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." Entrepreneurs are a scarce resource from the point of view of countries. On the other hand, countries in which to start a thriving business are a scarce resource from the point of view of would-be entrepreneurs. Just HOW scarce a resource is, in terms of how much an offer of that resource will change human behavior, is measured by the resource's price, which is set by supply and demand.

There is a lot of demand for living and working in the United States. The United States enjoys net immigration with respect to almost all other countries in the world, and has throughout my lifetime. There are definitely other countries that value entrepreneurs and that offer prosperity, personal security, and freedom and democracy to would-be immigrants. But each time the issue of immigration policy comes up on Hacker News--and it comes up a lot-- the dozens of comments make clear that many, many, many smart, diligent people would be glad to settle in the United States, if only they could, and so all the existing channels for legal immigration to the United States are well used. Many of those channels bring in founders of new thriving businesses.

So the policy issue to consider in United States politics, for an American voter like me who reads the interesting article kindly submitted here, or an article from today's local press,

[http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science- monitor/2012/06/st...](http://www.minnpost.com/christian-science- monitor/2012/06/startup-act-20-could-it-be-immigration-breakthrough)

is how much I think the United States is missing out on entrepreneurs who desire to immigrate to the United States soon rather than go to some other country. Surely such people exist. But surely (undeniably) each year the United States already enjoys large numbers of immigrants,

<http://www.census.gov/population/foreign/>

<http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/immigrants_1340.html>

and many of the immigrants who arrive here start up businesses once they arrive. Perhaps the United States is already doing enough. It would be interesting to hear from readers here whether they have ever seriously considered settling in Singapore, Britain, New Zealand, or Chile under the currently offered policies in those countries.

AFTER EDIT: And I see (from net downvotes soon after posting) I'm already swimming against the usual tide here of most HN participants supporting the United States having an entrepreneur visa on easy terms: perhaps terms easy enough for them and for their friends to use. That's a legitimate opinion. I'm happy to learn from you. Please explain why you think that is a necessarily better policy for the United States than the current United States policy. Learning to persuade is part of political life here.

<comment><USER15> _> Perhaps the United States is already doing enough._

Long-term it's absolutely not enough. The fundamental socioeconomic feature of 21st century will be the competition between the US system and China's massive population for global economic dominance.

The US population is ~300 million, China's is ~1.2 billion, 4x our size. For every engineer, scientist, genius, etc in the US, there are ~4 in China. Over the long term the US has no hope whatsoever of competing against that without significant structural changes.

Those structural changes include fixing our educational system, fighting tooth and nail for skilled immigrants, offering them better incentives to stay rather than return home to fast growing developing economies to make their fortunes, fixing the broken financial and patent/IP systems, etc.

Judge Posner sums up our shortfalls well in a recent blog post [1]. The US system will need to be operating at an order of magnitude greater efficiency than it currently is to have any hope of overcoming China's massive numbers advantage. Immigration is one of the few crucial advantages the US can exploit in that competition, but right now we're shooting ourselves in the foot so hard there we're blowing our leg off.

1\. [http://www.becker-posner- blog.com/2012/06/capitalismposner.h...](http://www.becker-posner- blog.com/2012/06/capitalismposner.html)

<comment><USER16> Unless, of course, there are more people with genius IQs living in china then there are people of any kind living in the U.S. :P

just had to throw that one in there... j/k

<comment><USER15> Haha, I actually tried to find that scene on Youtube to reference in my post, but couldn't. All of _The Social Network_ breakup scenes on Youtube start after it. That was like, the most important part for the movie, ffs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> So what is wrong with other countries that you can't start a business there? Can anyone explain this? is this just a green grass thing?

<comment> excuse-me Access to VC money. The money is in California, if you are even in Vancouver the VCs don't want to come to you.

This creates a virtuous spiral where the money is there so the tech people go there, so you start a company there because there are people there, so the VCs go there.

There are very few other centers so concentrated, Cambridge, Berlin, Waterloo are 1% the size.

But eventually some VCs will take the risk of a flight to Chile or Singapore - especially new Indian/Chinese money - and gradually the pre-eminence of silicon valley will decrease

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Where does the US L visa (for setting up a US subsidiary of a foreign company) sit with all this? I've got a friend going through the process at the moment, it seems like the closest thing to an "entrepreneur" visa, but is that not the intent?

</comment><comment><USER18> My biggest problem with the whole entrepreneurial Visa mess is that it gets lumped in with other Visa categories as well. Even the definition of Startup 2.0 crosses a line for me.

I believe, if someone has the the capital (or guarantee of capital) backing for starting a company and they want to do so in the US, the process should be very simple (beyond requisite background checks, etc). If you want to build, please come.

Visas for "higher education", I would willingly grant extended stay Visas for those completing PhDs but would put a slightly higher barrier on those getting Masters. Why? Two-fold (the second I will address below). My biggest issue is, especially here in California (for what I know), the UC system is hurting and embracing out of state (and out of country) applicants for the added tuition. And, for CS related degrees a Masters really generally just a one year degree. I would like to see more than just the one-year degree before granting an extended visa more easily than the existing visa paths.

My second problem with granting Visas to Master's students and this applies in general to my problem with visas for technical jobs, is the currently large unemployed base. My problem is not with those wishing to come here and contribute, but with the system itself. And, on some level, I am complicit in this.

The US has a very large un/underemployed base, even within tech. Companies argue that they can't hire enough qualified people, but the reality in a lot of cases is either: 1) the companies aren't willing to pay for the qualifications (the controversial path); or 2) companies aren't willing to train to fill in a potentially qualified candidate's gaps.

There are people out there that would be decent DevOps, SysAdmins, or even developers...but when a company posts for a position, they want the closest fit to that position. If someone might be an Ok fit over time, but would require investment in terms of training and time, the company will bypass them (in most cases).

For me, there is this gaping hole that this country needs to address -- we need to provide the ability to retool those seeking jobs to better fit current openings. The US and it's approach to "private enterprise" sucks at this. I know people that have gone to these fly by night "learn new skills" areas only to end up more in debt, still un/underemployed and not contributing to society as well as they might. Even in the case where people _are_ trying (and not giving up).

I am probably rambling here, but I think Startup 2.0 is a step in the right direction, but I wish the US would do more to encourage the development and reeducation of local talent. Our current system of falling into the cracks or mortgaging ourselves further to sketchy private "learn X" institutions is doing us no good.

</comment><comment><USER19> I don't understand why family unification/kinship is such a high priority for US immigration policy. I can see some arguments for setting the total level of immigration at a certain level (although, personally, I'd want large amounts of lawful immigration, provided people are going to be a net positive for the country and economy), but if your limiting factor is cost imposed, picking immigrants with low or negative costs seems like a much better strategy.

</comment><comment><USER20> I don't think there is any need for any entrepreneurs visa in america. Already hundreds of thousands of Chinese, and Indians are coming in every year.

Second, the idea of innovators from outside boosting the US economy looks bogus to me.

Third, why can't these "foreign entrepreneurs" could do all that they want to do in their own country first, and then do some partnerships with people in the US, so nobody immigrates no where and both parties benefit.

</comment><comment><USER21> I am guessing EIR is one such initiative to speed up the solution for this problem?

[http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/04/19/entrepreneurs- resi...](http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/04/19/entrepreneurs-residence- start-your-engines)

<http://www.uscis.gov/eir>

</comment><comment><USER22> Latest H1B/Green Card Filings by US employers along with Salary trends

Guys, see link below for latest H1B/Green Card Filings by US employers along with Salary trends <http://www.visasquare.com>

It has the exhaustive database of 600k companies.

Try to catch the latest reports as welll which is very helpful. Help all your friends - this is a must see info for everyone to check if your company is paying you right and what are the latest jobs for these visa sponsoring companies.

For example this is the city wise report for 2012, this way you can check state,city,job

<http://www.visasquare.com/top-h1b-visa-sponsors-2012/cities></comment>


Ask HN: Why does everyone hate Paypal? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Basically, you can get all you need to know by reading [http://www.paypalsucks.com/](http://www.paypalsucks.com/) and by searching HN for "paypal". You'll get all the horror stories of how they treat customers and merchants, blocking accounts, freezing funds... through automated algorithms or for reasons that make no sense to the account holders. Sometimes, but not always, those reasons are stated in the terms of service, but some are quite vague and open to interpretation or at the very least unreasonable.</comment>


Ask HN: What open source projects are you contributing to? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> OpenStack. It's huge and has tons of opportunities to learn about different aspects of big system. It's also Python, which is my favorite language and the best part is the incredible infrastructure OpenStack has to make it all work.</comment>


Instead Of Field Trips To The Zoo, A Long Island Middle School Visits Startups - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/06/13/businessinsider-microinterns-middle-school-students-intern-at-startups-george-haines-entrepreneurship-course-2011-6.DTL <comment><USER2> Having been a student of the guy behind 140 Varick st and re-vitalization of Silicon Alley, I am glad that we start teaching the new generation what it means to be an entrepreneur.

Most kids today are going to college for a paper degree that will get them in the corporate world and provide layers and layers of management cushion one on top of another. Although boring, political and unfulfilling these jobs are not really demanding.

Most people who go through the start-up experience (successful or not) and wear many hats come out of it with invaluable experience and make better owners/employees/consultants :)

Seeing this made my day.

</comment><comment><USER3> Why not do both?

<comment><USER4> You do realise that the "instead of trips to the zoo" is just a headline writer's sleight-of-something here, right? There's nothing in the article about zoo trips being cancelled.

<comment><USER3> Still, he doesn't seem to think very highly of zoo trips.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> What you're forgetting is at that age one simple thing can create a spark in a kid.

My uncle gave me a crystal radio at 10 (in the shape of Alan Shephard's space capsule) and that led me to becoming an amateur radio operator. Later a science teacher further stoked my interest in tech.

Sometimes it really is the simple things in life that set a kid on a journey.

</comment><comment><USER6> That is just great. Just what is needed to increase the chances the generation growing up now will be entrepreneurs. I will try to set us up as a host for something similar this fall here in Sweden. I am inspired by all actions to increase entrepreneurship and especially to children and teenagers.

</comment><comment><USER7> I wish programs like this were in place when I was a child. Imagine going to Google when it was still a few guys in a small office. It would be a life changing event.

<comment><USER8> But would you have known the significance at the time? Google at 10 employees consisted of a handful of scraggly guys* typing on a computer all day, and a couple other scraggly guys talking on the phone all day to get deals done (hosting contracts, funding, etc). There's nothing that looks interesting or unique about an early-stage startup--it's just people in an office. Compare that to a zoo that has plenty of room for kids to run and scream and see things they've never seen before.

I'm not saying it's useless to take kids to startup offices -- it socializes the value of entrepreneurship -- but it's not quite the same experience as seeing the size of an african elephant for the first time, or looking a gorllia in the eye.

* I use "guys" in a gender-neutral sense here; I don't know what the gender ratio was at Google at 10 employees.

<comment><USER4> _but it's not quite the same experience as seeing the size of an african elephant for the first time, or looking a gorllia in the eye._

In fairness, most parents have probably taken their kids to the zoo dozens of times before they even get to school age. I know I will, when I have kids, because... hey, zoos are awesome!

<comment><USER9> Look ma, a JAVA developer!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google Cloud's COO departs after 7 months - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/03/google-clouds-coo-departs-after-7-months/ <comment><USER2> If she goes back to Intel, that would be interesting.

A couple of years ago as I remember, Microsoft hired as their Global Linux Officer or something some guy who had worked on Linux for 20 years at Oracle. They made a big show of how they had to lure him to Seattle, convince his family, etc.

6 months later, he's back at Oracle...

EDIT: this guy - [http://www.businessinsider.com/wim-coekaerts-microsoft- open-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/wim-coekaerts-microsoft-open-source- executive-interview-2016-8)

<comment><USER3> Why would anyone intentionally go back to Oracle? I guess executive bonus packages must be really big.

<comment><USER4> Wants to go Yachting at Oracle's HQ!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Good, their support is pathetic and they ship barely working projects.</comment>


Ask HN: In what countries can you legally get a long term teleworking visa? - <AUTHOR> My current job allows me to telework "from anywhere" (we have employees in several countries in Europe, as well as in asia and the middle east), but it seems like it's impossible to get info on whether it's legal to move to a country while teleworking with a company in the US.  Is there a list of which countries allow this somewhere? <comment><USER2> If you're a citizen of a Svalbard Treaty signatory (including the US), the answer is... Svalbard!

[http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/45092/where- can-i-...](http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/45092/where-can-i-travel- for-prolonged-periods-of-time-while-legally-working-remotely/45131#45131)

<comment><USER3> It's even got a line to it on [http://cablemap.info/](http://cablemap.info/) !

</comment></comment><comment> mark-ruwt A pair of friends just moved to Paris to do just this. They had to travel to a French Embassy (Houston was closest) and prove they had a States-based job, and that they were financially secure. They're allowed to stay for one year, and then have the opportunity to re-up for one more.

I don't know of a master list, unfortunately.

<comment><USER4> I don't think you are allowed to work if it's a tourist visa. It might be not enforced, but teleworking is still working.

<comment><USER5> There's a big difference between teleworking for a French company (i.e. taking a French job) and teleworking for an American company while staying in France.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's all about the visa, and a lot of folks don't understand that working under the tourist variety is usually verboten.

Perhaps begin with countries in which you're interested in living and working, and see what sort they offer...

<comment><USER7> Out of curiosity, do countries usually prohibit all work on a tourist visa, or is there some minimal amount allowed? For instance, suppose in the middle of a two week vacation you want to participate in a conference call with the office back home to resolve a business issue, or perhaps you want to respond to work email for a half hour each evening, or something like that.

<comment><USER8> If you're seriously asking, you're misunderstanding the purpose of this law and of the legal system in general.

This rule is there to avoid foreigner to renew indefinitely their tourist visa while they're actually working for good. It's not there to prevent anyone checking emails.

On a wider scale, laws are defined to give a real world shape to the general principles. If you understand the principles, you can usually avoid being scared by the laws. If you deeply agree with the right of ownership, you shouldn't need a lawyer to know what to do with the fallen leaves of your neighbors tree that are in your garden.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If I understand, you work for a US company remotely and are curious about moving to a new country that is not the US (regardless of where you live today). I am by no means an expert, but if you are permanently relocating I believe most Countries will require you to prove you have sufficient stable income (or wealth) to make reasonably certain you will not become a burden or nuisance. Depending on your current citizenship the requirements will vary, e.g. a UK citizen going to the US or Canada or vice versa is totally different then other Countries.

If it was me, I'd consult an immigration expert for the Countries I was thinking about going to, mostly because the requirements seem to have multiple ways they could be interpreted. I do have a few friends that do this, and each time they have told me they talk to immigration experts to figure it all out (generally an attorney). One has done it all himself from what I understand just by doing all the research etc, but that seems quite hard and potentially error prone.

<comment><USER10> So, you don't actually have an answer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is highly dependent on your nationality. For example, if you're an EU citizen, you can work from wherever in the EU due to free movement of people laws.

</comment><comment><USER12> Teleworking is a bit of a gray area, but Belize allows you to stay indefinitely on a tourist visa. I've been living here for just under 4 years now. My email is in my profile if you have any questions.

<comment><USER13> I read this and then looked up the cost of living in Belize vs my nearest city in Ohio... and Ohio is cheaper! Just made me laugh :)

[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+Belize+...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cost+of+living+Belize+vs+dayton+oh)

<comment><USER12> The islands are definitely closer to Caribbean cost of living than Central American cost of living, but a single number is always going to be an oversimplification. You can live a quite comfortable gringo lifestyle here (condo on the beach, going out for meals and drinks 4-5 times per week) for less than $3,000 USD/mo. And you don't get the same view in Ohio. [1] There generally isn't a language barrier (former British colony), and the weather is 80 degrees and sunny all year round. If you live on the mainland it's half as expensive, but there's no beach. My advice is to fly down and check it out! It's only 2 hours from Miami or Houston, and you can fly to Guatemala for $200 if you want to meet the neighbors. :)

[1] [http://ambergriscaye.com/images/slides/weather1.jpg](http://ambergriscaye.com/images/slides/weather1.jpg)

<comment><USER13> Yea, I'm sure you're right. I have some friends who spent time in Belize and they loved it. I'd definitely like to go visit some day.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> As far as I know, in Croatia you can stay as long as you want if you can prove you make at least 4000 EUR/month. In Brazil you can stay as long as you want as well if you invest about 25.000 USD in your own Brazilian company. That does mean paying 25.000 USD, but opening a company and putting that amount in it's bank account. You can always close the company an take you money with you afterwards.

The thing about tourist visa is about working in the country. That means "stealing" a job from a citizen of a country.

Nobody cares if a person during his/her holidays answer emails from his/her job in his/her native country.

From another perspective, even if there is not law saying so, for the guest country it's nice to have telecommuters. They spend money on the country, they (probably) won't use the health system (an maybe must have their own private health insurance), and they don't "consume" any of the country's jobs.

But the best part about having a telecommute job is country hopping. A big plus of switching countries at least every 179 days is that unless you are from the US or Eritrea, don't have to pay income taxes nowhere.

<comment><USER15> >A big plus of switching countries at least every 179 days is that unless you are from the US or Eritrea, don't have to pay income taxes nowhere.

Was just discussing this, is it really possible? We're in Croatia and for example if we start to move to surrounding countries, how would we manage it? Would we need to go to the gov office and say "we're moving", travel away across the border to slovenia, say "we're moving here" and repeat that process all the time?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Short answer, almost no country allows working unless you have a work permit. People working remotely are usually on a tourist visa or maybe a retirement or marriage visa. Available visas and enforcement vary by country. Sitting in a hotel room or apartment or coffee shop working is not likely to attract attention from immigration authorities, the laws are to prevent foreigners taking jobs from locals. Keep your business to yourself and don't blab to everyone that you are doing online work, no one will know.

I've heard from a few people who have had their papers and laptop examined at immigration for evidence that they are working but this seems to be rare. The reports I heard were Canada, UK, and Thailand. The more computer stuff you cart around the more suspicious it might look. Everyone travels with a laptop these days. Keep your work stuff in the cloud, look like another tourist posting to Facebook, you'll be fine.

</comment><comment><USER17> argentina, costa rica, peru, paraguay, mexico, malaysia, spain, austria and germany issue visas even if you don't have a local job

i'll be happy to answer more questions about argentina, paraguay and spain

<comment><USER18> I'd be interested in knowing more about Argentina, and Spain. How does one go about getting a permanent visa? Should I be well versed with Spanish?

<comment><USER19> spanish non lucrative visa (was a thing, not sure if it still is)

<comment><USER17> yes non lucrative visa in spain and rentista in argentina

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A friend of mine has set up a simple company in Hong Kong to invoice his remote working for an American employer. He is living in Japan and has a Polish passport.

It seems the Japanese authorities don't really seem to care. But I don't know how kosher the whole arrangement is.

In any case, Singapore and Hong Kong are worth a look. They are very business- friendly, and you can probably make something work there even legally so. (And even if you had to leave Singapore every three months, that wouldn't be too much of a problem.)

<comment><USER21> I moved to Singapore a decade ago, and I can definitely recommend it.

If you'd like to try this, all the relevant visa information is available from the Singapore Ministry of Manpower: [http://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and- permits](http://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits)

I think the OP could possibly be able to get the EntrePass, if he sets up a local company in Singapore and makes sure his work is billed to it. Singapore corporate taxes are probably lower than where he's from, so it would likely be better to do that anyway.

<comment><USER22> He is talking about moving but still working in the US, Singapore's taxes have nothing to do with it.

<comment><USER21> It does. If you live and work in a country (even if it's for a foreign company) you can be sure that country wants you to pay taxes.

That said, Singapore taxes are very low, so it's likely a much better deal than paying the taxes in your home country (unless you're a US citizen, in which case everything becomes a lot more complicated, to the point where many banks in most countries won't even give you an account).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Isn't the thing to do is set up a sole proprietorship under your name and become a contractor for the US company?

At least in Japan I know several people with that sort of arrangement

<comment><USER24> In Japan the company has to receive most of it's income sources from within Japan so unless you are telecommuting for a Japanese company or a Japanese branch, this should not be ok with the immigration.

<comment><USER23> Really? My impression was that immigration mainly cares about having a stable situation, and the gov't generally wants to make sure you're paying taxes. Do you have a place explaining this in more detail?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> If you'd like to live in Prague, This blog explains one path to getting a freelancer visa in Czechia: [http://www.wandertooth.com/zivnostensky-list- work-in-prague-...](http://www.wandertooth.com/zivnostensky-list-work-in- prague-not-eu/)

</comment><comment><USER26> Japan recently released this program for highly skilled workers. [http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/](http://www.immi- moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/)

</comment><comment><USER17> if you work remotely staying there short term (up to 6 months), it's not illegal

<comment><USER4> I think it is actually. It might not enforced, but if you are working in a country - even fully remotely - you have to abide by local laws and probably have a work visa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> You are asking for specific legal advice. You really really should talk to a lawyer (and maybe a tax accountant) and not the internet. Many lawyers offer free consultations.

<comment><USER28> Oh, come on. He's asking for a list of places that have a program for this sort of thing. He's hardly asking for "specific legal advice".

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> If you can tele-work from country A then I see no reason you cannot work from country B unless it is subject to US export control restrictions and your job deals with such matters. You/your lawyer may also want to look at any tax/banking/financial restrictions that the US may have placed on country B as it could affect salary reaching your account. Even more so if you are a US citizen.

<comment><USER30> "Failure to imagine existence of laws" is not usually a valid defense.</comment></comment>


Anti-Piracy Group Hits Indie Creators for Using the Word 'Pixels' - <AUTHOR> https://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-group-hits-indie-creators-for-using-the-word-pixels-150808/

<comment><USER2> It's been said before: They need to be punished for false automatic takedown requests</comment>


Crash or Accident? - <AUTHOR> http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2017/09/04/crash-or-accident/ <comment><USER2> Personally, the term _incident_ seems more general and less assumptive. What if the crash wasn't a crash at all, but a bump, tap, or graze? Maybe Waze users have an implicit threshold for posting updates, where a crash may not be able to move safely to the shoulder and so impedes traffic severely. I don't use Waze myself, so perhaps there is an alternative to "crash" of which I am unaware.</comment>


Greg from Xobni pontificates on memory managers - <AUTHOR> http://www.gregduffy.com/2007/11/14/memory-usage/

<comment><USER2> Funny, but I uninstalled Xobni precisely because it decided to run its own little daemon at all times. Initially I liked the product a lot and several guys at work installed it because of me not shutting up on "look! all attachments from you in the corner, see?!"

What he's talking about is a valid concern. I too, having implemented an RSS reader with background polling process, had to deal with users complaining about "big" number in Task Manager.

However, what I learned later on, was that it isn't the number in task manager that people dislike, it is the assumption that we, engineers, make about how they use their computers. Our applications (my RSS reader or Xobni's analytics) may be useful, but not useful enough to be running at all times. An average user probably does about a hundred things he considers useful with his PC on a typical day, and if each and single one of those things starts its own little "monitor", things may get nasty.

It should not be so hard to keep in mind that our code is not the only thing on a computer, and using our software is not users' full time job.

Ever saw a 3 year old laptop that belongs to a "typical" user? Task manger has a scrollbar four (!) pages tall. That's how many processes he's running. Sure, every single one of them is written by a guy who knows the difference between private working set and shared memory, and every single one is somewhat useful (anti-virus, volume controls, sound enhancers, CD silencers, download managers, RSS daemon, weather bugs, temperature monitors, etc). But in the end, you DO end up with sluggish performance and ridiculous startup times. And Vista only amplifies the pain.

Therefore, unless you are a driver or a shell of some sort, DO NOT run any code in the background. Ever.

This is why I am not a Xobni user anymore. Kudos to them for a great idea and usable implementation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sad. I want you back as a user tx. My goal is obviously to make the product so much a part of your email life that it is painful to uninstall. I bet you are like me and use email all day long. I hate Outlook without Xobni. I would hope Xobni would have its place above temperature monitors, weather bugs, download managers, etc on your machine too.

Our separate proces is super small and simply allows us to do automatic updates, nothing else.

<comment><USER3> What is your strategy for secure automated updates? I have a desktop app in development that I will probably need to do that for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hrm. I wouldn't call the xobniservice "small" ... I installed Xobni last week to check out, even though I'm a Thunderbird user. I do have Office 2003 on the laptop and dip into Outlook occasionally.

Without Outlook running, xobniservice was using 14meg ...

Why not just have it kick off when Outlook starts up, and exit with Outlook exits ?

BTW, this is probably something that would make me move from TB back to Outlook. I really really really hope you can do a TB version ...</comment>


Could a Math Formula Save Species From Extinction? - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcompany.com/1721447/could-a-math-formula-save-species-from-extinction?partner=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+fastcompany/headlines+(Fast+Company+Headlines) <comment><USER2> A summary without much more than a conclusion citing another article which contains much the same information but citing the researchers (but not their paper). It's a research project just to understand why the conclusion is justified.</comment>


Why Gmail Doesn't Show Unsubscribe Link at Top Always? - <AUTHOR> I am planning to integrate marketing newsletters for my users at www.hackpundit.com. Trying to understand few things: 1) Why unsubscribe link at top of Gmail is not shown for all emails even email has unsubscribe link at the bottom? 2) How unsubscribe link in top of emails affect the open, click rate of newsletters? 3) Is the unsubscribe link present only for marketing newsletters mails and not for transactional mails? Please suggest <comment><USER2> The button is enabled when the mail contains a valid List-Unsubscribe header. It's not because there's a link in the e-mail body itself.

<comment><AUTHOR> Spot on!

However I see inconsistencies with this feature. I found lot of emails in which unsubscribe link at top is present but "List-Unsubscribe" header is not present. Not sure if Gmail is doing this intentionally. MailChimp has also mentioned this inconsistency in their blog. [http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails- new-unsubscribe-link-and-fe...](http://blog.mailchimp.com/gmails-new- unsubscribe-link-and-feedback-loop/) Read "The new unsubscribe link" heading para 3

Your thoughts?</comment></comment>


Show HN : Review our product for conducting online coding tests - <AUTHOR> http://blog.techtestnow.com/techtestnow-why

<comment><USER2> It looks nice and polished but I can do this for free at <http://i.seemikecode.com/>

At the very least, I'd make a true free plan and let your customers try before they buy. I'm not interested in a tour, I want to actually use the application before I sign up.

I like how you store the test results on your end. I don't think I'd ever use that (because we don't really care about previous tests of rejected candidates) but it's a nice touch.</comment>


Pawn Stars Teaches Entrepreneurs How To Not Negotiate - <AUTHOR> http://infochachkie.com/pawn-stars/

<comment><USER2> My favorite PS moment:

Seller: "I want $850"

PS: "Not going to happen. $400"

Seller: (pauses, deadpan) "$850"

PS: "I hate it when people know what their stuff is worth. Let's write it up".

</comment><comment><USER3> "Before I commit to this term sheet, I'd like to call in a buddy who's an expert in term sheets."

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly!</comment></comment>


This 3D Desktop Was Born at Microsoft - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/business/2013/02/amazing-3d-desktop/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Top+Stories%29 <comment><USER2> I'm not sure why press, media, futurists insist on pushing the idea that the future of user interaction is via replicating 3-dimensional physical interaction. There's a reason the keyboard, mouse and (small) touch screen are so successful as input devices. They each create an huge degree of meaning with a high level of precision, for relatively tiny physical movements.

While a 3-d interface that mimics reality might be more intuitive to a first- time user, it is vastly less efficient for an experienced user trying to get work done. A 3-d desktop is an accurate mental model but it doesn't need to exist on a screen if it exists in my head. I can move through the z axis of my desktop faster with alt-tab than I could ever move, shuffle, re-order a stack of documents with my hands in a 3-d environment.

* EDIT: tv and movies (eg. minority report) probably have a clear incentive to favor input devices where the audience can more easily see what's happening. 3-d works better there.

<comment><USER3> I agree and I think it is impossible to create an interface that is optimal for both inexperienced and power users. For users that are using a piece of software frequently, say few hours a day, intuitiveness of an interface should not matter, just efficiency.

I'm often surprised when I see professional programmers turning on some fancy 3D destop effects. Sure, these look nice, but they are only distracting and counter productive when you are using an environment several hours a day.

tl;dr xmonad rocks

<comment><USER4> For power users, the word 'intuitive' doesn't even make sense. There's nothing 'intuitive' about hjkl, but when I tried switching from wmii to i3, the _very first thing I did_ was switch their navigation keybindings back from jkl; to hjkl. Yes, the reasons for hjkl are historic and arbitrary, but I don't care - I don't want to relearn yet another set of muscle memories when I don't have to.

Even vim on the whole is completely 'unintuitive'. That's the whole reason vimtutor exists. But, the couple of hours I've spent (combined) over the last few years learning how to use it has paid off in full and with dividends in terms of my productivity - and I hopefully have many more decades of life to recoup that investment many more times over.

> I'm often surprised when I see professional programmers turning on some > fancy 3D destop effects. Sure, these look nice, but they are only > distracting and counter productive when you are using an environment several > hours a day.

I couldn't find these more annoying. Web interfaces tend to be the worst (because they're highly uncustomizeable). I don't want a slick, 3 second animation where the tab wiggles and slides every time I want to change the page (I'm looking at you, AmEx). I know where I want to go, and I just want to get there immediately. Every second that I'm delayed by flashy animations in something that I need to use several times a day just makes me despise the product a little bit more each time.

Outside of very specific applications/domains (gaming, simulations, etc.), I don't want anything to replace my keyboard. As GP said, nothing (including the mouse) can beat the keyboard for allowing maximum control and precision with minimal movement.

<comment><USER5> Maybe a better word than 'intuitive' is 'obvious', or even 'blatant'. For a user inexperienced with the application and unfamiliar with interface conventions, the most effective interface is one whose most basic features scream, "Here I am!" A skilled, experienced user needs the opposite — everything should be available at the press of a key, and he or she _knows which key it is_ ; anything that calls attention to itself and is not the work at hand is a distraction, and needs to go hide.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > People are used to gently flicking computer mice and grazing keyboards and > tablet screens; do they really have the stamina to reach into their > computers and flail their arms around?

That's not the key question. Traditional interfaces have some sort of physical contact. Moving from physical keys to touch screen removed most of the tactile feedback. But still many phones simulate it via haptic vibrations.

Imagine trying to grasp an object in the air purely out of visual feedback. I would imagine it to be extremely strenuous especially in 3D space. Unless there is a breakthrough sci-fi _skin_ which can simulate this tactile feedback, we would be, quite literally, hand-waving in the air.

<comment><USER7> [http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Technology#Computers:...](http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Technology#Computers:_Haptic_Adaptive_Interface)

<comment><USER8> Mass Effect "lore" tries to justify graphical rule of cool (displays projected into thin air with a few shades of orange as their only colors etc.). I wouldn't take it seriously as something exploring the practicality of such things.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The best 3D interface isn't going to look like a computer interface at all.

It's going to be a small patch on your skull that lets you look at a link and think : click / go. Your eyes and focus will make your hands almost entirely pointless for using a computer.

Within 10 to 20 years it'll be possible to wear said small patch, look at a url bar, think google.com, then think: go or enter, and it'll all just work. I think it'll be available in 10, but larger consumer adoption within 20.

That same patch will enable true interfacing with your physical environment. Walk into your house and think kitchen lights on (plus a safe confirmation word or phrase to make sure you mean it), and they'll come on based on the associated phrase.

By the time companies like Microsoft get around to trying to perfect a ridiculous hand > 3D interface, this concept will already have destroyed it.

Minority Report interfaces also will never become mass consumer adopted because of this.

<comment><USER10> > Minority Report interfaces also will never become mass consumer adopted > because of this.

it's actually been built, by the same guy that designed the thing for the movie, but many express reservations: <http://oblong.com/>

There's also kinect and leap in this space in the "stuff I can buy today" column. So I wouldn't discount this as "never" quite yet.

<comment><USER11> I don't think the point is that Minority Report type interfaces can't or won't be invented, but rather that they are more cool looking than they are practical for doing real work and thus won't generally be used outside of very niche areas.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> First I want to get off my chest; are we still using the phrase "computer genius" in 2013? Something about it just rings 1980's to me. I dunno. It seems quaint and silly.

3D interfaces may eventually be the future, but I don't think this version is it. First of all, it's gonna eat up your desktop space like crazy, for what advantage really? Wow factor? That wears out quickly.

Which brings me to my next point; there has been technology to do a variety of different types of 3D desktops for a while now, but it hasn't been pursued because so far going 3D doesn't provide much in the way of practical advantages for most applications. If you're browsing the web and reading email, 3D is doing nothing for you except "Oh man isn't this cool?"

The one place where it makes sense is where you are dealing with actual 3D objects, like 3D printing and CAD/CAM software.

<comment><USER13> 'First I want to get off my chest; are we still using the phrase "computer genius" in 2013? Something about it just rings 1980's to me. I dunno. It seems quaint and silly'

Hey, at least they didn't say "whizz-kid".

<comment><USER14> What's wrong with that? ;)

<comment><USER15> Awkwaaaard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This idea goes back further than you might think. The "Stereoscopic Workspace", from the Architecture Machine group at MIT in 1983, was a prototype of this idea, surprisingly close to this implementation 30 years later.

[http://media.mit.edu/speech/videos/?video=Stereoscopic%20Wor...](http://media.mit.edu/speech/videos/?video=Stereoscopic%20Workspace)

[http://media.mit.edu/speech/papers/1983/schmandt_SIGGRAPH83_...](http://media.mit.edu/speech/papers/1983/schmandt_SIGGRAPH83_spatial_input- display_correspondence.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER17> The effort put into backwards compatibility at Microsoft is always interesting... here is a presentation on research into supporting legacy 2D custom controls on arbitrary 3D surfaces:

[http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpf3d/archive/2006/12/12/interacting...](http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpf3d/archive/2006/12/12/interacting- with-2d-on-3d-in-wpf.aspx)

video: [http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Daniel-Lehenbauer- and...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Charles/Daniel-Lehenbauer-and-Kurt- Berglund-Interactive-2D-controls-on-WPF-3D-Surfaces)

</comment><comment><USER5> So the writer's idea of progress runs: command line → WIMP → touch → 3D. I think at least the first three are in order of effectiveness — descending. I suspect that the fourth, at least by my understanding of this idea, will continue the trend.

<comment><USER18> Certainly there are areas where command line beats a GUI, and where keyboard/mouse beat touchscreen, but that doesn't mean they are less effective. Would computers be doing as much as they do for many, many people if they were still 100% command line?

<comment><USER5> You know, I bet they would. I think what's made so many people able to use a computer is not the new modes of interaction but something more powerful: time. As people have more exposure to computers, and as they become more aware of the interface conventions that develop over time, they get better at using them no matter what the interface style is. I wonder if people might be _more_ useful to people if they had preserved a higher ratio of critical to non- essential visual data — which I think terminal applications do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Here's a link to a demo video

<http://vimeo.com/59231550>

</comment><comment><USER20> Am I the only one here amazed that is seems to "know" through what perspective you're looking at it? How is it doing that?

</comment><comment><USER21> This actually is pretty amazing. It looks like it can become practical.

</comment><comment><USER22> Amazing? Eh. Useful? Meh.</comment>


'The Lehman Trilogy' and Wall Street's Debt to Slavery - <AUTHOR> https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/06/11/the-lehman-trilogy-and-wall-streets-debt-to-slavery/ <comment><USER2> > now the Trump administration builds walls to keep out immigrants like the > Lehmans

I couldn't find sources stating the Lehmans immigrated illegally.</comment>


Our journey building Imzy in the first year - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@kickme444/our-journey-building-imzy-in-the-first-year-ee532379a8d6#.oacli793y <comment><AUTHOR> I'm available here to answer any questions!</comment>


Basic HTTP Authentication in Elixir/Phoenix - <AUTHOR> http://nts.strzibny.name/basic-http-authentication-in-elixir-phoenix/ <comment><USER2> This is the lesson to learn from Elixir/Phoenix and every web framewrok that does not come with a strong security concept: if you do not build solid authentication and authorization into the framework from the ground up, there will pop up bazillions of half-baked libraries and even more blog posts about how to do auth "the right way" and still there will never be the right way as long as the framework does not implement this.

Many eyes on security relevant code is one of the most important reasons for using open source frameworks for web development - so it is very unfortunate if exactly this part is missing, it will always look incomplete.

Of course this leaves room for professional services, I understand that, but I believe the damage done is greater than the opportunities generated. The current situation for "Phoenix auth libraries" is horrible - as a developer you will

      * waste a lot of time researching and testing all the available solutions
      * or just take one "random solution from the internet" that "looks good enough"
      * or you will just implement another solution yourself.

Instead you want to build on the solution that is provided and maintained by the core framework community.

This is such a sad story. Elixir / Phoenix looks so nice, but without a strong security foundation it looks incomplete. Authorization and Authentication is not even mentioned in the docs - that is absurd!

I simply can not understand why the project leaders are ignoring this important area.

<comment><USER3> I am just learning coding for the web. Security is something that is clearly important, but I am unsure on a lot of specifics. Do you have any suggestions for a beginner?

<comment><USER4> Learn how basic user registration to login workflow works. I.e. user sign-up -> password hashing -> confirmation email etc. There are also "alternative" methods such as medium-style "email a login link" style logins and also stuff like OAuth. Stick with large frameworks and libraries; Rails, Omniauth and Devise, Django comes with Auth built-in. Avoid Auth frameworks which doesn't build upon its built-in systems. Learn the difference between authorization and authentication. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ROLL YOUR OWN AUTH FOR PRODUCTION. A lot of concepts regarding Auth are simple in theory but if you have a poor grasp of the implementation language or the authentication protocol, you are going to introduce vulnerabilities. Stick to boring battle-tested stuff. Yes that means you should avoid the latest-web-framework-of-the-week-that- doesn't-include-auth when it comes to anything you want to push into production. Keep everything behind TLS if possible (Let's Encrypt et al. are free) and if you don't understand something, don't use it. If JWTs doesn't make sense to you, avoid it and stick with traditional sessions. Your SPA works perfectly fine using traditional server-side sessions and encrypted cookies without the latest hip protocol implemented by a 3rd party API gateway. Don't trust security advice from random people over the internet without doing your own research. Here is some good reading material:

[https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/06/12/a-childs- garden.html](https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/06/12/a-childs-garden.html)

[https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/04/03/cryptographic- right-a...](https://latacora.micro.blog/2018/04/03/cryptographic-right- answers.html)

<comment><USER4> *server-side sessions with CSRF

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Isn't it a bit irresponsible to write a guide for people who don't know how basic authentication works, without mentioning that it's critical to HTTPS- encrypt the message?

Base64 "looks" pretty secure if you're not paying attention.

</comment><comment><USER6> If interested in a session (cookie) based approach, give this one a try:

[https://lobotuerto.com/blog/building-a-json-api-in-elixir- wi...](https://lobotuerto.com/blog/building-a-json-api-in-elixir-with- phoenix/)

<comment><USER7> Hi! At the beginning of this section you state 'Let's add some functions to the lib/my_app/auth/auth.ex file to verify a user's password', but lib/my_app/auth/auth.ex was never created in the previous sections of the tutorial. Please indicate if it needs to be created, or if it's creation is done somewhere else. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I keep hearing things about Phoenix (specifically LiveView) and I am very interested in Elixir. Whats the learning curve look like for someone who's primarily a Javascript (with a little bit of PHP/Laravel) developer? Is it a purely functional language?

<comment><USER9> > Whats the learning curve look like for someone who's primarily a Javascript > (with a little bit of PHP/Laravel) developer?

Really depend how much of a language junkie you are.

I came from old school javascript and php and did mostly functional javascript (closure, high order function, etc...). I did other languages too but php & javascript was my primary. It's moderate not a very complex language but the paradigm can be a little bit high. The creator kept the language nice and small imo.

You can get away with half of it if you're just doing phoenix and ignore OTP (process, concurrecy stuff). You can learn OTP later.

> Is it a purely functional language?

Very close to pure.

There is no for loop. If you want to loop you have to do recursion.

You don't have to loop much because there are comprehensions and generators.

You don't use closure or anything that fancy unless you want to. I think the most is higher order function and those functional stuff like map, reduce, etc... It's not bad because you can google those things to get what you want. I think learning how to pipe |> a lot of stuff and pattern matching is what you really need mostly.

Reason I said very close is because it's pragmatic like Python where not everything is an object. You can invoke len() function without it being a method to an object. The example most Erlang tutorial will give being pragmatic is the time function how the time function isn't Referential transparency. Also so other fancy missing functional stuff from Haskell that some people asked for in elixir forum but I don't understand.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Mhhm I use JWTs with the Guardian library. [https://github.com/ueberauth/guardian](https://github.com/ueberauth/guardian)

Including some custom stuff to handle firebase auth tokens on one project.

<comment><USER9> I think JWTs are useful for web services. For web applications I think JWT is a terrible idea. Pow library is really awesome for web application authentication.

<comment><USER10> Nice, I'll give it a spin.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: BotEngine – chatbots for LiveChat - <AUTHOR> https://www.livechatinc.com/botengine/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hi!

Happy to finally show you our new tool BotEngine, which is now integrated with LiveChat. BotEngine is a tool that lets you build your own chatbot and integrate it with communication channels you're using. Over 21k companies using LiveChat are now able to use chatbots in their work - it's a pretty big step for the customer service business.

</comment><comment><USER2> looks interesting</comment>


Linux Will Regain Lost Market Share, Thanks to Moblin - <AUTHOR> http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7559 <comment><USER2> Every year since 2000 has been proclaimed that it will be the year for Linux to break into the mainstream. I don't see how Moblin is going to change this "winning" streak.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't see this getting traction with Google entering the market and Microsoft finally getting it's act together with Windows 7 (which works very nicely on my 1000He).

I'm not saying it looks bad. But using Linux requires a sacrifice from an average user and I don't see anything that makes this special enough to justify that sacrifice.

<comment><USER4> Consumer point of view: Moblin? A new OS? Scary and confusing!

Developer point of view: Moblin? A new OS with all components under the GPL? Developed by Intel and released to The Linux Foundation [1]? I can now port it from power hungry and inefficient Intel Atom hardware onto handheld ARM Cortex powered devices? Sign me up!

[1]: [http://linux- foundation.org/weblogs/press/2009/04/02/linux-f...](http://linux- foundation.org/weblogs/press/2009/04/02/linux-foundation-to-host-moblin- project/)

<comment><USER5> Not only is a new OS scary, a Linux OS is even scarier.

While I don't believe it's so true these days, Linux as a brand still has has this negative connotation with average consumers and is associated with engineers, tinkerers, and geeks. It's largely an unfair stereotype these days but it's hard changing consumer perceptions.

I'd bet it would be easier for me to convince my in-laws to install Intel Moblin on their notebook over Linux Moblin, although at this point, my in-laws know better than trust me with their computers.

<comment><USER6> For better or for worse, There's a significant amount of engineers, tinkerers and geeks out there who don't wish to see Linux loose its niche appeal with engineers, tinkerers and geeks. They like that Linux is by developers, for developers, that is its appeal to them in the first place.

I don't think it will ever go mainstream until non-geeks (or perhaps I should say designer-geeks as opposed to developer-geeks, if that makes sense) are heavily involved in at least the user interface aspects of the system. If that ever happens (and I think that's a big "if") I suspect that the engineers, tinkerers and geeks will be quite disappointed and go elsewhere.

I didn't vote you down by the way, because I'm not really disagreeing with you and what's more, I feel this tendency for people to vote down comments based solely on disagreement rather than voting down only inane/inappropriate/off- topic comments is a crappy phenomenon. Your comment was none of these things.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Growth Hacker is the New VP Marketing - Andrew Chen - <AUTHOR> http://andrewchenblog.com/2012/04/27/how-to-be-a-growth-hacker-an-airbnbcraigslist-case-study/ <comment><USER2> Everything seemed to be flowing logically until I got to this statement "No traditional marketer would have figured this out" (referring to integrating a Craigslist post into Airbnb). To that statement my question is why couldn't a traditional marketer imagine that functionality? They probably wouldn't have been able to create the actual implementation themselves but that would be a job for an engineer regardless of who came up with the idea. If the marketer happened to be an engineer great, if not, it seems like something that would just be delegated to a technical member of the team.

From what I understand Airbnb did a fair bit of spamming to craigslist prior to the very slick layout you see there so the idea of marketing via craigslist was already baked into their strategy regardless of it's implementation.

<comment><USER3> I agree. In fact, I would go even further and say that a non-technical person could come up with even better ideas because they are not constrained by what is technically possible. They think you can do absolutely anything with software. Whereas an engineer might (even subconsciously) be discouraged because they know it would take a lot of hard work to do the thing.

<comment><USER4> that could be true in some instances, in my experience (and the majority of the time), traditional marketers are not always thinking about the more technical opportunities (and more often than not, they are coming up with awful+old school initiatives). hackers on the other hand are always trying to figure out how to hack something for their own benefit... looking at packets to see if something can be reversed engineered or scanning services that are relevant + popular and could help grow your company. I've been in situation (multiple times) when the marketing person is not even aware of such places. This is why someone who has the technical chops and is dedicated to growth could be very interesting. I would not hire a marketing guy without tech experience

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Doesn't this fall under the already-existing title of Product Manager?

The way I look at what a PM does, this is exactly it: knowing the technical aspects enough to figure out what is possible and detail it for engineering to build. It doesn't have to be the same person that specs it and build it.

That being said, I'd be very happy to get a job as "growth hacker" for I believe I'm better at thinking that kind of integrations through, than at what is on the "marketing side" of product management.

</comment><comment><USER6> Marketing is becoming hacking, but then again it seems like _everything_ is becoming hacking.

<comment><USER7> Oh, I am _so_ burned out from that word. Everybody wants a piece of the community and tries to be authentic by adopting its lingo. But it feels so goddamned forced.

<comment><USER6> I only use it for lack of a better one; "programming" seems too specific. What would you suggest?

<comment><USER7> I was talking more about hacking in the "doing something clever" sense that has popped up like crazy: hack your taxes! hack your wife! hack the stock market! etc.

<comment><USER8> Well actually, "doing something clever" is damn close to the origin of the word.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "The fastest way to spread your product is by distributing it on a platform using APIs, not MBAs." As a marketer, this is why I am learning to code. Great article!

<comment><USER10> Same here!!

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> "It is expressly prohibited to post content to craigslist using any automated means."

<http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use>

Companies have lost their domains due to this.

<comment><USER12> How exactly do you lose your domain by violating a terms of service? Does Craigslist file a complaint with ICANN or something? I can see a lawsuit and prohibition against accessing their service.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Heh, some of the most effective marketing can be done by introverts who are good with numbers. Understanding both customers and code is more achievable and fun than finding just the right "business" cofounder.

Great article.

</comment><comment><USER14> For me this falls under same category as a "designer who can also code". It's great when you can find them but they are harder to find.</comment>


Toshiba shows TV with Playstation Cell Chip - <AUTHOR> http://news.techworld.com/personal-tech/3203198/toshiba-shows-tv-with-playstation-cell-chip/ <comment><USER2> I will find it interesting the day I can network a bunch of the running Linux.

A fully programmable TV set is a very interesting concept, but I wonder if anyone outside this forum would actually want one.

I can easily imagine a wall of those running come cool visualization program.</comment>


United Nations Expert Arrested in Tunisia for Using an RTL-SDR - <AUTHOR> https://www.rtl-sdr.com/united-nations-expert-arrested-in-tunisia-for-using-an-rtl-sdr/ <comment><USER2> Citizen of the said country here.

> As Kartas' business in Tunisia was to present his findings on the arms > embargo violations, other experts believe that the arrest is politically > motivated, and that ownership of the RTL-SDR for espionage is simply being > used as an excuse.

No kidding. The government is failing on several fronts; and is trying to gain popularity by making fake moves (like finding and arresting a spy). They did that to several business man. The good news, they released them (no charges, no evidence, no nothing). The bad news, some of them were released only a year later. They had no right to a lawyer or a trial during that time. It was "investigation".

This is possible because technically speaking the country is under martial-law which keeps getting renewed every month. The sad thing people are quite busy these days trying to find gas, milk and basic necessities. The interest on political and freedom-related news is way down from the first few years of the said revolution.

It is funny because looking at the pictures, some parts of Tunisia are now in more dire straits than Venezuela. It is just not getting the media coverage.

<comment><USER3> Tunisian here. The part about the goverment failing on mutiple fronts and trying to get popularity is mostly true.

Comparing to Venezuela on the other hand is ... an overstretch at best.

<comment><USER2> I used to think so. I think part of it is getting "used to the situation" and the other part is dramatization of the Venezuela crisis by the media.

Our roads are worse, the streets are much dirtier, and unless you are living around lamarsa/lac, then food shortages are real. If you can afford them in the first place. I live in a "wealthy" neighborhood and yesterday there was a water cut.

Yesterday I was at the airport. Looking at Venezuela/Caracas airport and comparing, the one here is much more degraded. What do you think is Venezuela situation? No electricity? It might as well be a reality here if the government doesn't get its shit together very soon.

<comment><USER4> > What do you think is Venezuela situation?

I can't speak personally to Tunisia's situation. However the people of Venezuela are starving to death. They're no more than two or three years from genocide by starvation at this point (or otherwise requiring desperate, massive food aid from the UN, Russia, China, or whichever countries they would allow to deliver it).

On the food security index:

[https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Country](https://foodsecurityindex.eiu.com/Country)

Tunisia ranks 51 out of 113. Venezuela ranks 78 out of 113. That's a lagging ranking, things have gotten much worse in Venezuela over the last six months and year.

A year ago, when things weren't as bad as they are now, the situation was:

"Venezuelans reported losing on average 11 kilograms (24 lbs) in body weight last year [in 2017] and almost 90 percent now live in poverty, according to a new university study on the impact of a devastating economic crisis and food shortages. "

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela- food/venezuelan...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela- food/venezuelans-report-big-weight-losses-in-2017-as-hunger-hits- idUSKCN1G52HA)

On a monetary, economic front, their inflation rate is so high as to be entirely pointless to track. They're formally a failed state with no functioning currency or central bank system.

Their economy has collapsed by 80% to 90%, in the last five years:

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin- america-46999668](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46999668)

Tunisia's GDP per capita has declined in the last several years, back to about where it was in 2006/2007\. They've seen a ~18% decline approximately, from the peak. A lot of that is dollar conversion decline however, only a small portion of it is real domestic economic contraction. Venezuela's collapse is a severe domestic contraction, a near total obliteration of all business and private enterprise, including basic stores (now entirely empty everywhere). Very little of Venezuela's decline is an issue of currency conversion against the jump in the US dollar: it's a flat out, straight down collapse.

When the US dollar took off on its historic run five years ago, it hit a lot of developing economies, including Tunisia. Tunisia's GDP per capita peaked in 2014, and began to decline, exactly in line with the USD taking off. Developing countries as diverse as Brazil, Russia, Pakistan, Turkey and Indonesia were hit by the same effect at the same time. The USD spike is also what pushed Venezuela under water, as it hammered the price of oil downward.

On a basic health front, diseases like malaria, diarrhea, typhoid fever and hepatitis A have skyrocketed in cases. Malaria has gone from relatively rare (15k-30k cases), to common (half a million annual cases), in Venezuela. At this point there is no functioning healthcare system in Venezuela, and essentially no medicine available to 99% of the population.

In terms of consumer goods, nearly all basic consumer goods were gone 18 to 24 months ago. They increasingly lack nearly all basic consumer staples, from diapers to toilet paper.

When it comes to access to safe drinking water, that too has essentially entirely disappeared. Water security is now a daily battle for nearly all the people of Venezuela:

"The water scarcity has driven people out of their homes and into the streets in search of any source, potable or not. ... Caracas, a city of 2 million, sits in a valley some 3,000 feet above sea level. The public water system relies on a succession of pumps that require massive amounts of energy. Without electricity, the water doesn't flow."

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/why-are- yo...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/why-are-you-crying- mami-in-venezuela-the-search-for-water-is-a-daily- struggle/2019/04/04/39972ce4-5547-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html)

Venezuela is seeing a severe flight of population, whereas Tunisia's population is solidly expanding year after year. Venezuela has seen maybe as many as three to four million people flee the country during the crisis. These people fleeing Venezuela are often living in imminent fear of starving to death, or the fear that that is what's to come next.

<comment><USER2> Parts of Tunisia are definitely doing as bad or worse. I don't know about the average guy. I'm neither one; nor there is any reliable data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > RTL-SDR is a very cheap ~$25 USB dongle that can be used as a computer based > radio scanner for receiving live radio signals in your area (no internet > required). Depending on the particular model it could receive frequencies > from 500 kHz up to 1.75 GHz. Most software for the RTL-SDR is also community > developed, and provided free of charge.

[https://www.rtl-sdr.com/about-rtl-sdr/](https://www.rtl-sdr.com/about-rtl- sdr/)

<comment><USER6> I believe you can still get in trouble with these in the US; last I checked, for example, New York has a law forbidding the use of police-radio-monitoring equipment to monitor police frequencies when placed in a vehicle, at least. I wouldn't be surprised to hear there are other cities with stricter laws, even NYC itself.

<comment><USER7> Out of the box those devices act as digital TV and radio receivers. In fact I have been using them for just that for many years. Weird that someone can get in trouble for having a TV/radio receiver.

<comment><USER8> It's not really about the RTL-SDR.

The person who was arrested was using the device to probe stuff that the Tunisian government doesn't want to be made known. If he had been using binoculars and a notebook at the airport, he would have been arrested too.

They were watching him, knew what he was doing there, and used whatever pretext was at hand to arrest him upon arrival (which suggests he had been there before).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > As Kartas holds UN diplomatic immunity, and as Tunisia is a member of the > UN, the arrest and detainment is seen as illegal.

This seems like it should be the bigger (though less on topic) deal.

<comment><USER10> The article doesn't mention this, but according to TAP, he was traveling with his regular passport instead of a diplomatic one[1], so he had no diplomatic immunity.

[1] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tunisia-libya/tunisia- say...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tunisia-libya/tunisia-says-u-n- official-arrested-in-anti-terrorism-probe-agency-idUSKCN1RB0LG)

<comment><USER11> UN allowing him to travel on a normal passport seems like a big problem. Diplomatic immunity should be SOP for precisely this reason.

<comment><USER2> I think he used his normal passport because he was entering his own country and had no doubt he is fine. Should be an unthinkable measure to take from here forward for UN officials.

<comment><USER12> As a US citizen, I was under the impression that I have to use my US passport when entering the US. Is that not the case everywhere?

<comment><USER11> I'm sure there's an exception for diplomatic passports.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> OMG. I am Tunisian and was planing to buy an sdr dongle next month for research purposes. I guess if I had done it I would be in big trouble by now. It is well known here that customs are very suspicious about any device they do not recognize. Back in the early 2000s they were questioning people about their USB sticks!

<comment><USER14> It's not about just carrying device.

 _they explain that he was using the RTL-SDR as part of his investigation for monitoring air traffic to Libya in an attempt to link flights against violations of the arms embargo._

So the person in question supposedly wanted to prove that Tunisia is potentially violating UN embargo by possibly monitoring air traffic communications without permission.

<comment><USER15> Tunisia and Algeria are well-known in enthusiast circles as countries where you do _not_ try to monitor ATC or Mode-S transmissions.

He had a noble cause but what he was doing would have to be done in a hands- off, anonymous way with relay to an outside recipient. Perhaps remote solar- charged SoC units with satellite uplink, but that's getting into serious money.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Damn, I wonder what countries my EDC kit could get me arrested in. I often carry one of those around, it's a lot of fun to listen in on ATC or just scan the spectrum for interesting signals.

<comment><USER17> Not clear as the article speculates that the SDR was simply used as a fig leaf for the real arrest motivation.

They used to be illegal in Germany (along with wifi-specific sniffers): is this still the case?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm getting a Cloudflare error 524. Hug of death?

Here's a backup: [https://web.archive.org/web/20190509030015/https://www.rtl-s...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190509030015/https://www.rtl- sdr.com/united-nations-expert-arrested-in-tunisia-for-using-an-rtl-sdr/)

<comment><USER19> Mirror: [https://outline.com/aeeu8G](https://outline.com/aeeu8G)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Does an RTL-SDR usually lack a passive/monitor mode?

<comment><USER21> I'm not aware of an RTL-SDR that posses anything _other_ than a passive/monitor mode

<comment><USER16> It's possible, but hacky and not that useful [0]

[0] [https://www.rtl-sdr.com/using-the-rtl-sdr-as-a- transmitter/](https://www.rtl-sdr.com/using-the-rtl-sdr-as-a-transmitter/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> So if a tourist carries RTL-SDR device to listen to local music on FM radio, he/she/other is going to rot in jail or worse?

Tunisia being a tourist hot spot I expected their customs to be knowledgeable enough to differentiate a malicious device.

I think they had already made their mind to arrest this person and RTL device is just a scape goat (or) they were super paranoid for some reason & this person was just unlucky to have a USB device with a antennae which for the uninformed has spy gadget written all over it.

<comment><USER23> Given that an RTL-SDR is a device capable of receiving and intercepting all sorts of radio signals, I would be _very_ careful of traveling with one unless I was intimately familiar with the relevant laws of the country I was traveling to.

<comment><USER24> The thing about an RTL-SDR is that it's just a TV/FM tuner, sold for that purpose, but with alternative drivers on the host you can use it for general RF tuning. My RTL-SDR is a cheap Chinese TV tuner dongle. They need access to his PC in order to prove that it's being used for other things than watching TV.

<comment><USER25> They [would] need access to his PC [if they needed] to prove that it's being used for other things than watching TV.

Fixed that for you :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Reminds me of the 'This shirt is a munition'

</comment><comment><USER27> Translation: "Don't take us seriously, as a nation or a military power".

<comment><USER28> On the contrary, the reason for this kind of arrest is usually a military paranoia over the import of military equipment.

You may not take them seriously as a technological country, but such arrests indicate that the army is worried about the smuggling of military tech and has power to enforce checks.

<comment><USER27> If a $20.00 RTL-SDR dongle presents a risk to your military infrastructure — then you are confirming your incompetence.

Now, this can be a valuable tactic; it is good to be underestimated by your opponent. I doubt this is intentional, though.

<comment><USER29> If they're arresting people for even a $20 component/tool, then it stands to reason that they are more authoritarian and vigilant; not less of a threat or incompetent!

<comment><USER30> You can be both vigilant and incompetent. For example, when you're being extremely vigilant over civilians noticing a glaring weak point instead of fixing it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> > In Tunisia a charge of espionage could be punishable by death.

> Tunisia is a member of the UN

Umm... what? Logic tells me these two statements should be incompatible.

<comment><USER32> That would mean excluding Egypt, the United States, China, India, Russia, and Indonesia, or roughly half the world's population, or 3/5 permanent UNSC members.

<comment><USER31> Great. Let's do it. Let's not give power to an international organization which _condones_ this behavior.

<comment><USER33> The goal of the United Nation is to prevent another world war. Minor atrocities are accepted as long as everyone stays at the table.

<comment><USER31> I'd say it's failing in that respect as well.

<comment><USER12> I know I'm out of touch, but was there a world war I missed?

<comment><USER31> No, but if you pay attention, the US, Russia, and other global powers are engaged in proxy wars all over the globe. We continue to fund terrorism. We are on the cusp of another cold war with Russia. China is moving for market dominance and expansion of their totalitarian regime.

The West's global markets are on thinner ice than ever. Domestically, the US, the world's biggest superpower, is crumbling. Poverty is on the rise. The wealth gap broadens. The US has begun assaulting its citizens' Constitutionally granted rights, including the rights to free speech and the right to bear arms against the government.

Dozens and dozens of extremely important natural resources, minerals, etc will be dried up within half a century. This will likely lead to global instability and riots. [0]

The environment is wasted. Thousands of animals and insects and other life evaporated. We are literally in the middle of a global extinction event [1] whose impact has yet to be fully appreciated. Our biosphere is rapidly collapsing. Our generation will be synonymous with plastic and the destruction of the Earth.

Multiple Middle Eastern countries are gaining access to nuclear weaponry. Things are as tense with Iran as ever. Al-Qaeda's plan [2] for Islamic global domination and war, while dampened for a moment, is still chugging right along. ISIS is not gone. We have _not_ defeated them. They _want_ a global religious war and everything they do is working towards this goal.

If we get out of the next three decades without a world war, I will be _very_ surprised. The coming War for Resources is inevitable, the only unknown is _when_.

No, the UN is not doing their job. Nor is the US.

[0] [https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/NICR%202013-05%20US%20Na...](https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/NICR%202013-05%20US%20Nat%20Resources%202020,%202030%202040.pdf)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al- Qaeda#Strategy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#Strategy)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Destructuring Assignment in ECMAScript 6 - <AUTHOR> http://fitzgeraldnick.com/weblog/50/

<comment><USER2> For anyone interested in trying some of this stuff out (which I highly recommend, because a lot of the new stuff in ES6 is really great), Google has an awesome tool called Traceur [[https://github.com/google/traceur- compiler](https://github.com/google/traceur-compiler)] that will compile ES6 into ES5.

There's also an online version here: [[https://github.com/google/traceur- compiler](https://github.com/google/traceur-compiler)] that's great for quick little experiments. And, as an added bonus, it encodes your script in the URL so you can share it.

<comment><USER3> Sounds like the Modules implementation isn't ready yet, that's too bad... probably one of the most useful parts of ES6

<comment><USER2> Yeah. There are some other things that are actually impossible, like WeakMaps. But still, the stuff that exists is pretty awesome.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This, and the short function syntax (that's also already in Firefox stable: "let square = x => x * x") make me very giddy. It's always been possible to write JavaScript in a functional style - but this kind of sugar makes it much much nicer. Things like Traceur will even let us transpile to old-school JS for old browser support, so for a lot of projects we can start using these things real soon.

<comment><AUTHOR> Combine the two:

        const tail = [, ...xs] => xs;

<comment><USER5> const tail = ([, ...xs]) => xs;

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah you can't do the single-param-drop-parens when combined with destructuring? Good to know, thanks Benvie.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For anyone wondering, TypeScript will also include support for this [http://typescript.codeplex.com/workitem/15](http://typescript.codeplex.com/workitem/15)

</comment><comment><USER7> This is great and allows us to do some slicker functional code:

        function take(num, list) {
          if (num <= 0 || !list || list === []) return [];
          var [head, ...tail] = list;
          return [head].concat(take(num - 1, tail));
        }

It's not as elegant as haskell but it's still nicer than it would be without the new syntax.

Once we have support for tail call optimization, things will get really interesting.

<comment><USER8> Note: list === [] doesn't do what you expect it to do. It's going to return false all the time because it is comparing the actual objects and not their content.

<comment><USER7> Ah, yeah, of course. That always threw me off, I've been working too much in other languages.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Yet another great feature heavily inspired from CoffeeScript (and tastefully expanded upon). Well done!

The surprising thing for me is that destructuring _almost_ allows defining default values for function arguments.

<comment><USER10> Destructuring assignment long predates Coffeescript. According to the Coffeescript docs, they took the syntax from earlier drafts of ES6. Destructuring assignment long predates ES6. Common Lisp had a destructuring- bind macro back in the early 90s, and I'd bet it wasn't a novel invention back then.

<comment><USER11> And even in JS-land itself, Mozilla introduced destructuring assignment in Javascript 1.7 (alongside iterators, generators, array comprehensions and `let`).

Javascript 1.7 was introduced in Firefox _2_ , in October 2006.

> I'd bet it wasn't a novel invention back then.

Indeed, ML featured destructuring assignment (which it called "patterns") of tuples and records back in the 70s.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Definitely looking forward to this as well as other new ES6 stuff. There's something else I feel I could use perhaps even more but I haven't seen it in any of the ES* updates. I'm a huge advocate of DRY and it bothers me when I have to code something like:

      var a = objImUsing.prop.someLongName > 5 ? objImUsing.prop.someLongName : whatever;

I can and sometimes just make an extra variable above for a long prop list like this but that adds an extra line. I guess what I would like would be some sort of implied line limited scope:

      var a = objImUsing.prop.someLongName > 5 ? _1 : whatever;

_1 referring to the first mentioned value in the immediate parent statement.

<comment><USER13> In ES6, you can write more terse immediately invoked function expressions. So you could use

      var a = (prop => prop > 5 ? prop : whatever)(objImUsing.prop.someLongName)

rather than

      var a = (function (prop) { return prop > 5 ? prop : whatever })(objImUsing.prop.someLongName)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I can see why Brendan Eich is excited to get ES6 out there. It's finally coming back around to parity with Scheme. I'm looking forward to seeing more.

<comment><USER15> Javascript is the functional programming community's secret weapon! Sure ES6 will add classes, but they're just syntactic sugar. Wrappers around the truly functional language underneath. Everyone is slowly being soothed into using a lisp. And when you realise this, it's the funniest thing to watch!

<comment><USER14> I'd be hard-pressed to call Javascript a "functional programming language" (whatever _that_ means). Common Lisp also suffers from the same misguided label. In truth we love to mutate state in CL and find lattices of type hierarchies to be burdensome (but a great pool of research for your post-doc).

Scheme is about as close as I'll get to pure-FP languages. I don't seem ES6 going down the "purity," route. And I hope it stays far from the border.

What I was originally referring to though is (if I recall the history of the language) the roots of Javascript -- that it purportedly was a Scheme-like language before becoming what it is today. And by being what it is now has lagged behind in feature-parity to what programmers are used to in other languages whose history isn't tied to the venerable web browser. It just seems to me from the interviews that skirt the topic that Mr. Eich is finally coming back around to introduce what should have been there from the start.

 _(Updated for clarity)_

<comment><USER16> You could use const all over the place.

<comment><USER15> Still doesn't give you immutable data structures though. For example:

        const myArray = [42];
        myArray.push("Oh noes");

        [42, "Oh noes"]

<comment><USER16> Ugh, you're kidding?

EDIT: checked in Node, yep. That's unfortunate. Can we get a let foo immutable = [1]; or something?

EDIT2: Although this can be implemented in user-land with Object.freeze. Create a function that returns a const that is frozen if it is non-primitive. That should cover it, right?

<comment><USER17> freeze/seal don't actually provide true immutability in JS. There are cases where a frozen object can still be modified (Date is one of them, IIRC typed arrays are another)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> PHP has this available as list[1] in a slightly more limited form.

1\. [http://php.net/list](http://php.net/list)

<comment><USER19> That was my first thought too. I never really cared for list() in PHP as I find it a somewhat confusing way of assigning variables, and judging by the examples given in the article, I actually preferred the clarity of the less "terse" variable assignments done the old way. Might just be habit though.

<comment><USER18> Yeah, I never really got it either. Seemed "clever", and I usually try to avoid being too "clever" with code. Readability almost always wins.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Good to see, this is one thing I have really missed from Erlang when writing Javascript.

<comment><AUTHOR> This isn't quite as powerful as full blown pattern matching (which in turn isn't quite as powerful as full blown unification) because you can't branch logic based on whether a pattern matches or not.

<comment><USER21> Can you elaborate on what "unification" is in this context? The only language that I've used with full-blown pattern matching is Rust, and I'm curious to know what the next step up the ladder is.

<comment><USER22> A fairly decent, brief answer is here:

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4442314/differences- betwe...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4442314/differences-between- pattern-matching-and-unification)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> That's awesome.

Any bets on when we can start using it on the front-end? I'm sure Chrome/FF will pick it up quick once it's finalized, but when will ECMAScript 6 be present in 95% of IE installations? 2020?

<comment><USER24> You are forgetting all the mobile browsers out there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> With the Destructuring Objects, I was like: WTF, but it all makes sense once you get to the Practical Applications of Destructuring. Nice stuff.

<comment><USER11> FWIW "objects" destructuring is just about as old as "tuple" destructuring: ML had both in the 70s, which it called "tuple patterns" and "record patterns".

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Who needs ML when now we have Javascript?

I never thought I'd hear myself say that. But seriously, this is awesome. Thank you, whomever!

</comment><comment><USER27> This is nice, reminds me of Scala</comment>


How Snapchat secretly bought a struggling startup, then bet the future on it - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/untold-story-vergence-labs-snapchat-acquired-spectacles-2016-11 <comment><USER2> Snapchat has the scaled back version of the original product on the market but I bet they are still working on the more complete AR system. Looking at Snapchat as an AR company paints it in a whole new light.

<comment><USER3> It's like screaming into a void when discussing Snap as an AR company. I've been talking about it since 2014, posted about it last year on our blog, comment the same thing consistently and yet it's like it's a surprise to everyone.</comment></comment>


Why dictators are sometimes needed. ISIS makes the case - <AUTHOR> http://elpasonews.org/2014/09/isis-is-why-dictatorships-are-necessary/

<comment><USER2> I don't get the sense that the author wants to live in a "necessary" dictatorship, but I don't get the sense that he doesn't, either. Very weird.</comment>


Starbucks Redesigns it's Logo : An Illustrated History - <AUTHOR> http://imjustcreative.com/starbucks-redesigns-the-siren-logo-an-illustrated-history/2011/01/05/ <comment><USER2> Required reading: How Starbucks got rid of the mermaid when they opened their stores there: <http://www.pulitzer.org/archives/6654> (they put it back after three months).

</comment><comment><USER3> apostrophe's</comment>


James Gosling leaves Google for a very cool startup job - <AUTHOR> http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/i_ve_moved_again

<comment><USER2> The Liquid Robotics folks gave a lecture at Stanford in EE380, the Stanford EE Computer Systems Colloquium, which is available on video. It's at the link below and probably available on YouTube and iTunes as well.

<http://ee380.stanford.edu/permlinks/091028.html></comment>