New users: Welcome.  Please read the site guidelines. - <AUTHOR> There's been a big spike in new users the last couple days. Unfortunately it's been visible not only in the traffic stats but in the character of the comment threads.
New users: we'd appreciate it if you'd please read the site guidelines before commenting.  Most importantly, the principle that you shouldn't say anything in a comment that you wouldn't say to someone's face.
http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Hacker News is an experiment.  We're trying to see whether by asking people to be civil we can
avoid the kind of nastiness that anonymity breeds by default. The experiment has worked so far.  And while the new users may not realize it, this is why they're here.  People like it here because one can have a civil conversation.
The principle that you shouldn't say things you wouldn't say to someone's face means you can't express yourself the way you might be used to doing on Reddit or Slashdot. This, for example, would not stand out on either of those sites,
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=459250
but it's not cool here. <comment><USER2> I've also noticed comments modded down to <1 for no good reason. I like the idea that here, generally downmods to <1 are reserved for abusive or off topic comments, rather than just something you disagree with.

To the new users: If you disagree with a comment, please reply to it, stating why. Don't just blindly downmod it.

Just my 2c

<comment><USER3> On the flip side, I don't understand why someone should get 40 karma points for a two word witty comment, no matter how funny it was. Why isn't karma per comment limited to -1 to 10? Seems like it would limit karma bashing and karma mega-boosting.

<comment><USER4> If you limit the karma to 10 then a particularly good comment will eventually sink below comments that are upmodded later because of the way the ordering algorithm works. Similarly, a particularly bad comment will stay visible.

I don't see anything wrong with karma mega-boosting. At the end of the day it is just a number on your profile.

<comment><USER5> And _much_ more likely any good comments that are not put in the first hour will never get the points that they deserve. Someone says something witty and gets 192 points. Two days later someone writes something very informative, but there are very few viewers after that so they get only 5 points. It would be foolish to think that an algorithm could compensate. Slashdot has this very problem years ago and solved it in a very good way. This reddit system of many points only works for when there is very small users, but does not scale.

<comment><USER4> \- When people with long enough attention spans are invested in the conversation they will read through many of the comments. In many cases if you come into a conversation late you will be posting a reply because it is less likely you are coming in with a new angle. If you are posting a reply it is more likely others will see your comment because it will be visible on their threads page.

-I think the example you gave is a very rare case (I hope.) Unfortunately part of commenting right now is timing, which I do not have a problem with. If you post something informative two days into the conversation it will not have the same exposure, although depending on the conversation it will not appear far below the fold.

-I do see your point and I think it would be great if good comments that come late have more visibility. None or all of the following might help:

1) Delete comments and their replies once they reach a certain negative threshold (-5 for example.) Of course this gives downmodding a whole new meaning but maybe that is a good thing. This would make the comments section more readable and keep the conversation more civil and/or focused.

2) Highlight comments that were posted in the past 8 hours and have reached some karma threshold in yellow. This is a sort of "recent hot shots" feature. This way when an HN reader scans the page they can see what new comments are receiving upvotes more easily.

3) Give recent votes more weight then past votes. This means that a karma point awarded now means more than a karma point awarded an hour ago. Maybe the algorithm HN uses already does this- I am not sure.

I don't think pushing newer comments with fewer points up is a good idea because that changes the power up upvoting too drastically. Perhaps some anchor tags at the top of the comments section leading to the hottest new comments?

p.s. nice blog

<comment><USER5> So I started writing a reply that got longer and longer and I am going to turn it into a blog entry. Would you be willing to review it before I publish it?

<comment><USER5> Enjoy:

[http://benjamin-meyer.blogspot.com/2009/02/comments- rating-s...](http://benjamin-meyer.blogspot.com/2009/02/comments-rating- systems-close-look-at.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'd personally like to say "Please keep HN civil, free from trolling, and intellectual." This site has been a great resource - and that's at least partially because the tone of the vast majority of the community here is pretty serious.

I have an account on reddit as well, and my tone over there is different than my tone here. On reddit I make a decent amount of off-the-cuff remarks, occasionally troll a bit, participate in pun threads, and also have a decent amount of intelligent debate and discussion. Here I keep my mouth (fingers?) shut (stoppped?) unless I have something to say, because that's the vibe here.

Here, I'm more likely to vote people up who have a differing opinion on an issue, or even if they have an opinion that _offends_ me, if they are able of stating and defending their position logically. On reddit, I'd probably just skim over their post.

Etc.

The tone of this site has gotten a little lighter since the first time I was here, and it seems to have gotten a lot more of a focus on the business side of things, which is fine - but if people aren't careful, the site will devolve into yet another pick-your-favorite-site-here.

So yeah. Please keep HN grown-up. It's nice to see mostly responsible discussion happening on a site like this, and I hope it continues to happen.

<comment><USER7> And by "grown-up," we mean "like grown-ups who aren't from TechCrunch."

<comment><USER8> You really should re-read the top level of this post. It's directed squarely at you.

<comment><USER7> I just learned the very hard way to never _ever_ comment on HN after drinking.

<comment><USER9> Seems like HN should ask a GMail Goggles-like "Are you drunk?" question before you are allowed to post comments!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> That principle doesn't work online. In general you can say stuff to people in person that's insulting and abusive, and then just give a wry smile and everybody laughs. You can't do that online. The guideline has it exactly wrong.

The problem is that what you say online about someone is frozen forever, and takes on more significance than either the sender or the receiver actually meant. In person, I call you an asshole, you're impressed that I said it to your face, we both laugh and move on. On the web I call you an asshole, you call me an asshole, it escalates, shows up in google searches for both our names, people who aren't quite up to speed on things (recruiters) take it more seriously than it should be... bad stuff happens.

<comment><AUTHOR> Some percentage of the nasty things people say on web forums are said half- jokingly and offend because half-jokingness is hard to convey in text, but I think the majority are genuinely nasty.

<comment><USER11> Have you considered asking new users to enter their first and second names, and creating an available username from that?

This is often credited for Facebook having more 'real' content than MySpace and Friendster.

<comment> tsetse-fly Enforcing specific types of usernames is rather lame. People would just enter fake names. Facebook depends on your real identity so people who have met you can locate you.

<comment><USER11> Some people may enter fake names, but asking for their first and last names at least sets expectations.

As you've touched on, allowing people to find you on hacker news would also be a benefit.

<comment><AUTHOR> Usernames consisting of people's first and last names feels corporate. It would be a bummer not to have any mechanical_fishes.

<comment><USER12> Thanks mate!

<comment><USER13> I didn't realize until this moment that there was a mechanical_fish and a robotrout... am I missing out on a joke or something?

Next I'll see a reply from cyberguppy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'd also prefer to see less "linkbait" on the front page; i.e. stories with titles that are, at best, only tangentially related and are instead overdramatized just to get clicks.

<comment><USER7> It would be healthy for submitters to look at headlines before they copy them directly, realizing that what makes sense for a blogger (aware of Digg) seeking some well-deserved attention for a post might not make sense in an extremely specialized forum like Hacker News.

What I mean is, a blogger is completely justified in naming a post "Why James Bond would never drink a Coke" (like I did for an environmentalist blog) if that blogger believed their purpose would be best served by alerting Digg users to the perfidies of the Coca-Cola company. But if a Hacker News reader appreciated the post's message -- that Coca-Cola is exploiting water rights laws in third-world countries to produce its products cheaply at the expense of the residents and their clean water supplies -- they would do well to use a different headline that what the desperate blogger, often paid by the pageview, had written with a view to Digg.

That said, bloggers will more and more overhype their posts in the way that media have since their beginning, and those of us on small thinky web sites will have to get used to downvoting and moving on.

<comment><USER15> Except we can't downvote can we? at least not stories? (or is there a karma level for that?) (I am sure I am missing something obvious).

<comment><USER14> Nobody can downvote stories, but if they're violating the rules, high-karma users can flag them for deletion.

<comment><USER16> I would be cool with allowing high karma users the ability to down vote stories (people on the top 100 list for example).

<comment><USER8> I used to really want downvoting. Flagging really works much better. The stories that I would have ended up downvoting either don't belong here and get [dead]-ed, or they spawn a lot of fascinating conversation.

Fortunately, people haven't been doing a lot of gaming of the system yet. The biggest problem with upvoting only is that controversial posts garner the most votes (a thousand people love a subject and ten thousand people HATE it, so it gets a thousand upvotes and a TON of comments, even if most people disagree with the premise).

<comment><USER17> I agree, downvotes are dangerous. I know Reddit had (has? I don't know I left when I found HN) a problem where all new articles were getting downmodded by people who wanted their own links on the front page.

I repeatedly think that I would like downvotes, but I quite quickly remember that I absolutely _hate_ downvotes. I don't completely agree with being able to downmod comments, however I think the side effects are dampened that you have to have _good_ karma before you can downvote, which prevents trolls from abusing the system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Curiously PG posting this gets 50 karma and counting, someone else posted a similar thing earlier in the week and got flagged dead.

I don't want to see this topic regularly but maybe the guidelines could be made more prominent for new users?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good idea. I should add some kind of welcome page.

<comment><USER19> How about "Don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone's face" next to the submit button for the comment box? It could be a link to the full guidelines page maybe.

Even for older users it could be good to have a little reminder to not be an arsehole (I could certainly use that sort of reminder on occasion).

<comment><USER20> Didn't someone write some kind of code to detect when a given text might be a flame? Not sure what it was based on. It'd be cool if the site said "your message looks kind of flame-y. Are you _sure_ you want to post it?"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Duplicate submission. See:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=219081>

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=133453>

<comment><USER22> Um... Did you look at who made this submission? :)

<comment><USER21> "pg"? Am I missing something?

<comment><USER23> pg == Paul Graham

<http://ycombinator.com/people.html>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> What has caused the spike in new users?

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't know (the web server doesn't keep track of referring urls), but it started on thursday.

<comment><USER25> Because Michael Arrington mentioned YC News in Techcrunch???

[http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/04/2009-products-i-cant- li...](http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/04/2009-products-i-cant-live- without/)

<comment><USER26> _Hacker News is another Digg-like news site that focuses on tech that I visit daily as well._

Not only mentioned, but likened to Digg. People may have been expecting that what passes on Digg would pass here.

<comment><USER27> The post was on January 4th though. I wonder whether it's a chaotic system effect.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> As a reddit convert myself, I'm terrified to post here. I hear that Paul Graham himself sometimes singles out dumb commenters and publicly ridicules them. ;-) Best to keep a low profile.

<comment><USER7> Unless you have a not-so-secret smirking attitude toward Paul Graham, having publicly ridiculed him in an earlier stage of your career and now being lucky enough to have no need for his money.

<comment><USER29> I can remember when -23 points would be reserved for something like a string of racial epithets, not merely a lame but inoffensive attempt at humor.

<comment><USER7> It's okay, a little smack on the hand is just what I needed. I have no idea what's brought so many new users (I just came to find talent and advice for my startup), but as long as it's a temporary influx, the new users will settle down as they usually do. A short period of bad behavior from inexperienced users is just a growing pain for any healthy organization, and since the community (and Paul) have dealt with it so well, I have little fear that growth will turn Hacker News into Digg. For instance, I know now not to cheekily mock Paul in his own thread, and probably not to write a single thing after several black-and-tans.

That said, members who wish to preserve a community's original quality should be proactive. They may have to replace the functions of some other original members who have left. We call this "culture."

<comment><USER13> Well just to chime in as someone that has been here for quite a long time, a 'slap on the hands' (as far as I have witnessed) tends to be dropping a comment to -1 or so.

Piling on someone like that should be genuinely rare, and only because they are spamming links to goatse or streaming curse words at someone.

Hopefully this little portion of our 'culture' doesn't change, as it seems like a civil way to deal with this sort of thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I honestly hope that HN news does not degenerate into another reddit or digg- like news sites where comments and content are full of dramatized and useless material.

So far, I've found the users of this site intellectual, technical and insightful in their comments and as a result, its been a joy to participate in this community and I hope the crowd which this site attract remain the same - smart and technical people.

<comment><USER5> Just like when reddit started out. So what does HN do differently that will stop it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I find that the site has definitely spread apart in it's values. And the real problem is as "undesireables" flood in, the people who are truer to the original culture get disgusted and back away.

As a personal (though perhaps not universal) example, see here, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=458256> , a +23 comment decrying the multi-page split of the article. See here, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=398185> , my own comment railing against them wasting my time\effort like that.... modded down to -6.

I don't want to be a whiny nuisance about it, but when that happened it really alienated me from the community and quite frankly I don't think I've contributed much anything of value since. I felt betrayed when I chose to stand against that kind of crap and I was stabbed in the back. Add in the fact that the "rules" are not being applied equally as the culture splits, and it just feels random and unfair.

To conclude my soapbox, I could be doing approx. 50 trillion things on the internet right now, so stop trying to waste my time\effort with 11 three sentence pages, snarky\"witty" comments; and God save the YCNews

<comment><USER32> I think it just comes down to wording. The post that ends with "FAIL" got downvoted.

That seems pretty harsh to me, but I think people are just hypervigilant against any hint of encroaching diggishness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Edward Tufte has a good thread of collected moderation advice and policies from over the years here:

[http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg?msg_id=0...](http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg?msg_id=0000fT)

Here is the short _essay_ he provides to anyone who cares to comment, at the top of the comment form:

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-----

This board is only about evidence presentations and analytical design. For all business matters (book orders, courses, shipping, prices, delivery dates), please go to the Graphics Press contact information on our home page

On the Ask ET forum, we seek to publish questions and contributions that advance the analytical content of the thread, provide a good example, or raise an interesting question. Contributions should be relevant to the chosen thread. Please no marketing pitches, gratuitous links, or incivilities. There are about 6,000 contributions in the 500 threads now published on this board; they provide good examples of what has been accepted for publication.

Some new contributions go to a non-public queue, which is frequently reviewed by a member of the editorial board in order to decide whether the material should be posted. About 30% of submitted contributions are posted; after publication, about half survive the occasional reviews of published items. The editors are unable to reconsider their decisions or to answer any queries about editorial decisions (some of which may well be mistaken). Publication policies are described in detail at Moderating internet forums [Ed. the link I mention above]

If your contribution is published, your email address will be masked on the board, and your identifying IP number will not be published.

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-----

</comment><comment><USER34> Feature request/experiment: Put a small second column on the right side with the 'new page' on the main page.

I suggested this to reddit a long time ago when they first started to really get lame, but it never caught on.

</comment><comment><USER17> While this is up on the front page, I'd like to say that I love HN and the people on it.

There's lots of things I like about HN, like that links can't be down voted and that downvoting comments is an exclusive right to people with good karma.

However, the main thing I like about HN is that I see _lots_ of civil discussion and people giving useful comments and suggestions. When I have seen disagreements (I believe I've been in a few myself) I notice that people tend to do what they do in real life and simply 'walk away'. When I read something that really irks me I usually just close HN and will come back later or whenever when I've forgotten about it.

</comment><comment><USER35> maybe make this post a sticky, so that everyone will see it right away. Can be temporary one...i.e. first 90 days you see this thread at the top of the list, then it goes away?

</comment><comment><USER15> A suggestion:

Any chance that news stories could be throttled or more heavily edited/moderated just after a spike in new users? Just a thought, it could help to filter out those who are interested versus those just looking for another forum to do their usual thing on.

<comment><AUTHOR> The problem is more in the comments. The character of the submissions hasn't changed much.

The best way to deal with nasty comments by new users may be just to ask them to stop. Several times lately I've noticed established users doing that, e.g.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=457319>

<comment><USER15> Well things seem to be going well. Dodged a bullet this time !

I am _very_ interested to see how things maintained - increasing popularity is inevitable...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Is it possible to change your username somehow? I'd switch over to using first name/last initial or first initial/last name if it is. I like being held personally accountable for what I write here, and the real life conversation standard.

<comment><USER37> i'd say putting your real name and contact information in your profile suffices.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I showed up here because a real-life acquaintance wrote a nice post about HN on his blog, here: <http://www.robsayers.com/programming/HackerNews.html> I had visited in the past when it was purely Startup news, but I hadn't created an account.

As I'm more of a tinkerer and explorer than entrepreneur, the bent is more toward my liking, since the revision. I really like the attitude--or rather lack thereof--and look forward to becoming a part of the community.

</comment><comment><USER39> > People like it here because one can have a civil conversation.

It's true, I don't know how I stumbled across this site but one thing I noticed is the 'high quality' comments compared to other social news websites.

I'd say to the regulars be patient with us, the new folks in town, since we may be a bit jaded by some of the other places we visit and, yes, the anonymous nature of the Internet does bring out the worst in people, including me.

One thing I've learned when commenting is "less is more" (although you'd never know by this three paragraph 'comment').

</comment><comment><USER40> Well I post here once in a blue moon when I see something of interest, and I also comment. My long term goal is to break 100 points on my next submission.

It's a sad thing that it's been years now and we still have to have guidelines that essentially say what everyone was told by their mother when they were a child. I think this will improve some day when either 1. we ban dogs from the net or 2. we start shooting the bad ones :)

As an aside, PG, congrats! I saw recently that you were promoted up a level. It's a wonderful thing, non?

<comment><USER41> Just a thought, but if you got modded down badly, being banned from HN for a few days, with a big banner that tells you why "sorry: your last comment was modded -5, we'll let you back in tomorrow", that might take care of the teaching once and for all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> For some time I read hacker news nearly daily (one of the rare places) and mostly because of the comments. Some members here have good points, ideas and are right at the mark. Even with this valuable board discussion if many of these non sense comments increase it will turn away good members. With the anonymity of the internet there will be always some characters that need moderation and so far ycombinator did a good job. Keep it up.

</comment><comment><USER43> From all the downmodding of the linked comment, I gather a lot of people are going to disagree, but I actually think the comment may have been the most helpful one in the thread.

Its message was:

        Prioritize, focus on things that are relevant to
        your success, not on things that only matter after
        you've succeeded, i.e. see the bigger picture.

Perhaps the delivery could have been better.

<comment><USER44> The method a person uses to convey that idea is important. The way it was said, there was likely too much work to be done extracting that simple idea compared to the ideas worth to the parent poster. I think everyone's opinion is that the way we communicate our ideas on this board is also important.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> From my experience posting, I'm learning more about what's acceptable, and sometimes I even delete a post that's dragging down my karma.

But more interesting - With the experience of posting here, I should be able to write a press release for my startup that appeals to hackers.

</comment><comment><USER46> > We're trying to see whether by asking people to be civil we can avoid the > kind of nastiness that anonymity breeds by default.

Plus liberal use of disabling people's accounts without notifying them let alone asking them to change something.

<comment><USER47> I think it basically boils down to:

Hacker News logins are a privilege, not a right.

Coming from a background of things like talkers where you needed to be explicitly invited by another user before you could get in, I don't really have a problem with that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I agree wholeheartedly. It takes effort on the part of all of us to maintain a useful and constructive environment here at HN, and I have GREATLY appreciated the thoughtful, insightful and provocative discourse here.

</comment><comment><USER49> The group is indeed its own worst enemy

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=460624>

</comment><comment><USER50> What about putting a cap on the number of users that can register per day? This keeps the community growing but in a controlled fashion.

</comment><comment><USER51> Where did the new spike come from?

</comment><comment><USER52> is there an IRC channel for HN?

<comment><USER53> try #startups at freenode

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> hacker news is not digg. end of sentence.

</comment><comment><USER55> hossam

</comment><comment><USER56> design flaw.

[http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/summon-monsters- ope...](http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/summon-monsters-open-door- heal-or-die.html)

hate to carp on it, nobody likes hearing I told you so, but a design flaw is a design flaw.

</comment><comment><USER57> Slashdot used to be (reasonably) well-informed discussion. Digg at the beginning too. And reddit as well. rec.sports.baseball.bos-redsox, too.

All successful forums grow big and become worthless. The Y C kids need to learn this.

Never gonna' give you up Never gonna' let you down. Never gonna run around and desert you.

<comment><USER19> That's not a reason to give up. Maybe this time it will work. As pg says, this is an experiment.

The problem of retaining the character of a site while not just letting it stagnate (as happens when you start doing things like cutting of new memberships or restricting new user posting) is a very hard, and as yet unsolved I believe, problem. But solving hard problems is what it's all about, right? :p</comment></comment>


The Porch Pirate of Potrero Hill Can't Believe It Came to This - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/11/stealing-amazon-packages-age-nextdoor/598156/ <comment><USER2> That's a lot of words to say serial lying drug addicted thief got caught. I can sum it up in one: Yay!

I'm just surprised she was even prosecuted at all in a place that has so many people that would spend so much effort sorta-semi-defending that kind of behavior.

It's 1000 times worse that you even need to install video cameras to protect your own door, than it is that the "lady" had a hard (mostly self-inflicted) life.

<comment><USER3> > I'm just surprised she was even prosecuted at all in a place that has so > many people that would spend so much effort sorta-semi-defending that kind > of behavior.

I agree. Given how much it costs to prosecute someone...

<comment><USER2> I couldn't even hazard a guess but I bet it is a lot. Do you have a round number for what it does cost?

<comment><USER3> Its really tough to quantify and comparison of the outcomes could be wildly different depending on your point of view.

I know having packages stolen is frustrating. I shipped cookies to a friend in NYC and they were lifted. It sucks, but were these people really harmed? the goods were presumably replaced (some of which were sloppy joe sauce multipack) and the people claiming they didnt feel safe and had to move were still there after writing a letter saying they had to move to the judge.

I also understand the residents point of view, you feel less safe. and that can be harmful to your psyche and mental well being.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The subtitle is "When a longtime resident started stealing her neighbors' Amazon packages, she entered a vortex of smart cameras, Nextdoor rants, and cellphone surveillance."

Am I supposed to sympathize with an incorrigible thief? If modern technology means more thieves are caught, that's a good thing.

<comment><USER5> This whole article reads like I should be crying for this lady. She was given at least a dozen second chances - more than most people get - and she still continued to steal, lie, and abuse drugs in front of her daughter.

<comment><USER6> To be fair, the voters in California decided to treat these crimes as misdemeanors, no matter how many times you're caught stealing. It's what the people wanted. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why does no one talk about working or interviewing for Oracle? - <AUTHOR>

I find it interesting that people here talk about the interview process and working at companies such as Microsoft, Google and Facebook, but I never hear about Oracle.<p>Why is this? Is it the because databases and web servers are not cool anymore? Or maybe just because Oracle does not sell consumer products? <comment><USER2> Oracle strikes me as exactly the kind of company where I never ever want to work in.

They're enterprisey. They do boring stuff. They're evil.

What's there to like? Why would I want to work for them?

<comment><AUTHOR> I would like to understand the following:

Why do you think Oracle does boring stuff? For example, both Oracle and Google work hard to make very scalable and highly available systems - but somehow Oracle is boring while Google is exciting.

You mention "they're evil". Why do you think Oracle is evil? Why do you think Oracle is more evil than Facebook, Apple, or Google?

<comment><USER2> B2B space is boring. Enterprisey stuff is boring. You end up with a convoluted system that's designed to please a 1000 different costumers. Most of the problems you'd deal with are customer-specific, nothing interesting.

System level stuff _is_ interesting, what's boring is the enterprise.

Why are they evil? Android law suit.

Also maybe the fact they just rebrand RHEL and try to sell it. Granted, it _is_ legal (due to the GPL), but it's still evil. They view open-source as an opportunity to leech technology for free and resell it after they rebrand it (and possible add proprietry extensions to it). Their CEO is quoted saying "if an open source product gets good enough, we'll simply take it. [...] So the great thing about open source is nobody owns it – a company like Oracle is free to take it for nothing, include it in our products and charge for support, and that's what we'll do."

<comment><USER3> What's so evil about using the GPL for exactly what it was intended for?

And perhaps the reason Oracle lacks similar popularity with Google, is because Oracle is soul-crushing. Although some people might say the same about Google these days.

<comment><USER2> RedHat does wonderful things for linux and open source, what Oracle is doing to RHEL is like bullying.

Who'd want to work for such a company? Seriously.

I don't care if Oracle's so called distro does any damage to RedHat or not, it's the fact that Oracle is pulling dirty moves like this; that's what makes me perceive the company as evil.

<comment><USER4> Oracle contributions to Linux: <http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/linux/026042.htm>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Once you JOIN Oracle, you have to abide by their referential constraints, otherwise the general employee database will TRIGGER a DELETE on your records.

</comment><comment><USER6> Ditto SAP, BEA, EMC, IBM, HP, CISCO, AVAYA, etc

Maybe it's coz they don't hire hackers!

<comment><AUTHOR> True (btw, BEA is ORCL now).

What is definition of hacker in this context? Web 2.0 / javascript developer? Or self-learned developer?

<comment><USER6> A hacker is like an artist. Someone who gets satisfaction out of creating something. Anyone who enjoys learning new stuff.

When it's just a J.O.B. and there's no passion, then it is not hacking. Many people programming in large corporations are not interested in challenging themselves with new stuff. Their biggest challenge is getting through another dreary day and not going postal on the pointy headed boss.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Shame.</comment>


Zed Shaw: Why I (A/L)GPL - <AUTHOR> http://zedshaw.com/blog/2009-07-13.html <comment><USER3> There seems to be this whole generation of open source programmers who think that software development is a game. Zed gave away his software to get all kinds of accolades and adoring fans -- which, when you think about it, is pretty bloody bizarre.

Open source software is wonderful because it keeps us programmers from constantly reinventing the wheel. It gives us all the collective ability to improve the infrastructure that our products depend on. It's not really surprising that the most mature, stable, and user-friendly products are operating systems, web servers, database servers, and so on. It's bottom layer that programmers use to build software products regular people use.

Zed's pissed because Mongrel doesn't get mentioned anywhere. I use open source software in my business all the time to advance what we can deliver to our customers; if someone wants to know what we run, I'll tell them. But guess what, they don't want to know!

If all Zed wanted was credit, he should have picked a product with more MBA appeal. Instead he build a web server -- that's infrastructure -- and nobody outside of the programming community gives a crap about infrastructure. It's the final product that matters. Even if Ruby on Rails gets mentioned, most people wouldn't know the difference between it and PHP. All they know is that you're in the same camp as 37 signals. Just as companies that use PHP will say it's the same technology that powers Facebook.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what license he gives his software for the game he's playing. The rest of us, however, just want to get our work done.

<comment><USER4> _Zed gave away his software to get all kinds of accolades and adoring fans_

That's a straw man. There is no mention of his original reasons for giving away his software. Only now, in hindsight, he realises it annoys him that of the great many users, not only do none credit him, but some even blame him. That's pretty harsh.

<comment><USER5> _Only now, in hindsight, he realises it annoys him that of the great many users, not only do none credit him, but some even blame him. That's pretty harsh._

Is it? How many people using Linux know who, say, Ulrich Drepper or Alan Cox is? How many of the Apache installations in the world give Brian Behlendorf "credit"? That's just the nature of writing open source software -- IMHO the whole idea is to write something that other people find useful, and give it away.

And honestly, Zed complaining about a lack of attention and props is outrageous. The guy must have an _enormous_ ego. Compared to most authors of open source software, he is _far_ from anonymous.

<comment><USER6> _How many of the Apache installations in the world give Brian Behlendorf "credit"?_

And Brian's the highest-profile contributor to Apache. What about Rob McCool, Robert Thau, Roy Fielding, Ralf Engelschall, Rian Hunter, Rainer Jung, Rasmus Lerdorf, Rüdiger Plüm, and in some sense Randy Terbush? And those are just the contributors whose names begin with "R": <http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/>

<comment><USER7> I've heard of this Rasmus fellow doing a few other things as well.

<comment><USER8> Things of which we shall not speak.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Uh, Zed?

You know the GPL doesn't have (and expressly forbids adding) any sort of advertising clause, right? And you know how all those fly-by-night VC-casino startups prattle on about 'cloud' and don't generally distribute software that you execute on your own computer? (and when they do it sure as fuck isn't Ruby or Python)

Yeah.

I don't really see anybody needing to 'convey' software that uses lamson. Not only is nobody going to want to buy a license from you, are you really going to get copyright assignment from all contributors before relicensing their work?

On one end of the spectrum, the Linux kernel, the GPL works perfectly! There is a nice crystal clear boundary between kernelspace and userspace already, and the gray border region of closed commercial drivers works itself out due to the companies' desire to maintain one codebase (it's not a derived work if the same blob is used in Windows!).

On the opposite end (in order of increasing ridiculousness) there's libraries for doing basic shit in Python or Ruby, frameworks for sugaring Javascript or CSS, and _motherfucking Wordpress themes_. Here is where the GPL falls to pieces. Attempt no landing there.

<comment><USER6> Do you know what the "(A/" in the title stands for?

<comment><USER9> The 'Affero GPL' -- which is intended to close the software-as-a-service 'hole' -- as thus it is used by noone, and promoted only by the nuttiest faction of the FSF.

As barely realistic as complying with / enforcing the GPL's terms are (especially in v3), it's nothing compared to the fantasy-land that is the AGPL. The GPL at least has copyright law to piggyback off of / fall back to -- The AGPL is just a shitty EULA!

<comment><USER6> It's true that GPLv3, the original AGPL, and AGPLv3 are not as well tested in court as GPLv2. However, they do not depend on "clickwrap" contracts, as your profane comment appears to imply; they are written solely as unilateral copyright licenses, not contracts ("agreements", which is what the "A" in "EULA" stands for). It's possible that a court might invalidate them, but they are grounded in the exclusive rights reserved to authors under regular copyright law.

The AGPL is not as popular as the standard GPL, partly because it's somewhat new. Laconica is probably the most popular piece of software that uses it.

I don't think the FSF really has factions. People who disagree with Richard tend to just leave.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Every time I think I understand software licenses, I immediately think I don't. The posts I've seen today have only served to confuse me more. Is there a simple, understandable, maybe even FUN, required reading page on this subject? I'm looking for "talk to me like I'm a 3 year old" but also "don't waste my time". Suggestions?

<comment><USER11> As a partial answer to your question, I for one thought that Zed's final point made sense (and made me better understand the GPL):

 _Open source to open source, corporation to corporation._

Basically, you can do just about anything with MIT- or BSD-licensed software. But the GPL tries to make everything around it GPL too. If you build software that integrates with a GPL'd library, you have to release your software with a GPL (or similar) license.

So Zed's plan is to offer his software under a GPL license for free (open- source to open-source), and also sell it without the GPL license for pay (corp to corp).

Good place to go for GPL info: the GPL FAQ (<http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- faq.html>)

<comment><USER12> In the case of mongrel or lamson, I don't see the difference. All of the binding clauses of the GPL apply to distribution. It isn't until I distribute it that I have any responsibilities at all.

So if I use mongrel or lamson I'm not distributing that code in binary or source form. Thus, if I want to use the code I can do whatever the hell I want (modify it, use it, print it out and bathe in)... until I distribute it somehow (which a typical web-app never does) it makes zero difference.

I'm VERY confused after reading this rant as to what Zed thinks this actually does.

<comment><USER13> say Zed released Mongrel under a BSD-license, then any big company (or any person really) could come in and modify it, make it better and then sell it. And Zed would be left with nothing. That's what GPL is for, adjusting it is fine, but you can't make money out of a redistributed modified version.

<comment><USER14> You can sell GPLed software, Linux distributors did it for years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Someone has to say it: Zed shaw is a cock. He doesn't get the recognition he thinks he deserves _partly_ because of his rotten public image, which he carefully crafted himself: crass, erratic, unprofessional, needy and infantile. The last damn thing a startup would want to do is to say "Here's Zed Shaw - we use his software, isn't that great?".

I say "partly", because the other half of the equation is that he doesn't deserve the reputation he thinks he deserves. He is high-profile due to controversy, but plenty of other people have done more for the Open Source community with less kudos.

<comment><USER16> I think a lot of his points have merit.

Meebo is a multimillion dollar company (est $200m), built mainly off libpurple. I really don't understand how the libpurple developers can look at that situation and not feel hard done by. Tireless work reverse engineering protocols, which is then taken and silently used without real credit, to build multimillion dollar companies :/

I had a discussion about this with some hard core free software people, and they just said they thought libpurple would feel "proud". Well I'm sorry, but if someone was making millions from work I'd done, I wouldn't feed proud in the least. I'd feel like an idiot.

(I'm not saying meebo is bad to do this at all. I'm more saying that I don't get how anyone could be motivated to work on an open source project like libpurple without some protection in place).

<comment><USER17> Meebo employs libpurple developers. The libpurple team looks to have specifically OK'd Meebo's use of libpurple. I don't think they feel "hard done by".

<comment><USER16> Maybe it was harsh of me to use meebo/libpurple as an example here in that case. Hopefully they're getting a good chunk of the VC money etc.

<comment><USER17> Here's where you point out that you compete with Meebo.

<comment><USER16> Not really, Meebo don't really have a large groupchat offering, and Mibbit don't really have much of an IM offering :)

point taken though... As I said at the start, I wasn't beating on Meebo, I think they've done a great job.

I'm sure there's other examples, but Meebo was the one that sprang to mind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Zed should make his own BSD-style license that says you can use his software freely, as long as you send him a notarized letter stating you're using it, along with a note on your website.

I can't tell if I'm joking or not.

(To be clear, I think Zed is awesome, and he has the right to use whatever license he wants. Oh, and we use Mongrel).

<comment><USER19> What has Zed gotten out of your Mongrel use? And what have you gotten from it, financially?

<comment><USER20> What makes Zed so special that he should "get something out of" his freely released software — while the developers of all the _other parts_ of the system that are required for everything to work, don't?

A list of all the developers whose free software contributions are necessary for a website to be used would not be short. It would be absolutely ginormous.

<comment><USER19> Zed's not special. People who write code should be rewarded for their work: "the labourer is worthy of his hire," after all. This is why BSD-style licenses in a world where multimillion-dollar companies make a killing off of the code you write don't make sense for the individual developer -- especially when you're a star contributor.

<comment><USER14> Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company.

Maybe if it wasn't free, nobody would be using Rails and Mongrel - <USER2> would be on C# and Mono. There is always competition, so "should be rewarded" is really determined by the market. You can't just work on anything and then demand money for it.

Mongrel that costs money would be a different product from Mongrel that is free.

<comment><USER21> _Not everybody who uses Mongrel is a multimillion-dollar company._

Yet they can afford to hire employees who know how to deploy Mongrel and Rails. Programmers and sys-admins aren't cheap, neither are executives, marketers, salespeople, etc. Even if you're running a tiny Web startup, you _should_ be able to afford small donations.

 _edit: You can treat the donation as a "license fee" if that makes the accounting easier to deal with_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> As much as he makes good and bad points I think some of the commentary here is unfair; I think Zed is just explaining why he wants to use GPL license from now on.

As someone who has been "burned" on some minor pieces of code I agree with him somewhat. If, for example, I laid down some pretty useful code and open sourced it - then a startup came along, used it to bootleg their code and made millions I'd be pretty upset. That's not what it was open sourced for (because no one benefits from their millions).

Perhaps no money required but it is nice for companies in those situations to say "yeh and we built it on the awesome XXXXX (link to site)". Because that means _more_ people can find something that is useful to them.

<comment><USER23> I'm sorry, if you released the software under a liberal open source license then you weren't "burned". I don't get what it is that makes people release software under licenses that say "do whatever you want with my code" and then suddenly get all self-righteous when someone actually does that. Be pleased and flattered your software is being used - if that wasn't your original motivation then you chose the wrong license to begin with.

<comment><USER22> Hence the quote marks.

I didnt hugely mind the use of my code. It just sucked that _after beign asked_ they refused to push fixes and improvements back into the public branch. That's takign advantage of the permissive license IMO :)

>Be pleased and flattered your software is being used

No one is suggesting this isnt the case :) it's possible to be flattered by some and frustrated by others (indeed if they refuse to add code to the "pot" I dont consider their use very flattering....)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Zed's a great guy, hell of a programmer, and from what I've read of his, he's got a good heart. However, he sure makes it hard to like him.

I'll admit that the GPL is, at its heart, a cynical license, and that's what makes it so useful... But christ, the GPL is also the centerpiece of a community based around a certain large amount of altruism, I'm unnerved to not see that mentioned, though given the fact that it's Zed writing I can hardly say I'm surprised.

<comment><USER25> Do you even know what altruism is? It bothers me how easy people use this word. Do you really think open source programmers are "disinterested and selfless for the well-being of others"?! They want recognition for the contributions because it's in their self-interest to be noticed, respected and validated by their peers.

<comment><USER24> Some of us feel grateful for what the world of FOSS has given us and enjoy giving back.

Given the condescending and crude tone of your comment it's no wonder such concepts are foreign to you.

<comment><USER25> It's an insult to assume people would rather work for your personal gain than their own.

<comment><USER26> How so?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Summary: My code didn't make me rich and famous so I use these licenses so people have no choice.

Fair enough, but I think the biggest reason people didn't give him respect and piles of money because of Mongrel or whatever wasn't that they wanted to steal his awesome code and exploit him, but it was because he was a douchebag to them and everyone else. Who wants to deal with someone that toxic?

But, no no, it's not his fault. It's those meanies that jacked his code and didn't tell anyone. Jeez.

<comment><USER28> Yeah and I also think he's missing the point that people use mongrel not because it's awesome like Zed, but because they don't have choice. Having deployed several mongrel-based servers I personally think mongrel is a crappy server, and is in fact one of the reasons we switched to python/django.

<comment><USER27> Well that's not so much true anymore. I'd actually be interested to see its marketshare after the emergence of Passenger as a viable option, along with other proxying servers like Thin.

But yeah for a while, it was Mongrel or (ew) Webrick. How far we've come! :P

<comment><USER29> I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like anyone willingly deploys new apps using mongrel anymore. It's all passenger, glassfish, etc these days.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> For the people on here who hate the GPL, you need to realize that you can make large (sometimes even massive) contributions to the open source community and still run a multi-million dollar business. I've written about this before. See a previous discussion here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=527660>

Also, even if you are a cold selfish human being, realize that your continued success depends on the success of open source software. Those servers you're running? You'd have to use _Windows Server_ if it wasn't for open source. And let's not even get into what you use for your backup strategy, version control, and text editing. It's a classic situation where you are focused on short term profit and no attention is paid to what is necessary for long term success. The open source developers will leave if they have to, or just license everything under the AGPL like Zed suggests.

</comment><comment><USER31> I find the dynamics of venture-backed (vs. bootstrapped) companies to be telling. I mean, not everyone who runs a venture-backed company is shallow or trying to fool you, but there is definitely a much stronger emphasis on appearance, when you are using other people's money.

Personally, I would be fine working for a venture-backed startup (I mean, if I needed to work for other people, which is something I'll avoid if I can.) But when it comes to my own company, really unless my investor is someone I'd want as a partner without the money, I'd rather get a dayjob.

</comment><comment><USER32> He's not doing anything others haven't done before. It's what TrollTech did with QT for example, and how ghostscript was distributed. Use the GPL-ed version for open source software; pay money for a proprietary license for proprietary software.

Lamson looks very useful. As was Mongrel.

</comment><comment><USER33> "I believe that whatever the author wants to do with his or her works is their right."

That right there is all the argument I think he really needs. It's his damn software and no one else has the right to get pissed off at him for his choice of license.

That being said, I don't think it's going to get him what he wants. People will still be able to use it in their web apps without giving him credit. And who's going to risk hiring someone who (at least gives the impression of being) as caustic and erratic as Zed. He's probably not like that in person but the risk that he might be would be to high for most people I would have thought.

</comment><comment><USER34> Investors don't give a shit what software you're running, so long as it doesn't introduce liabilities. I don't think Mongrel's GPL status really caused this; instead, the VAST majority of web servers are still Apache etc.

<comment><USER35> Mongrel was dual licensed, under GPL2 and the much more permissive Ruby licenese, so I don't think it was really an issue at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Well - I love mongrel, and I love Zed too.

One thing he can hang is hat on is that by giving away mongrel for free he really helped legitimize RoR by providing a stable platform, which helped the spread of RoR, which itself spawned many more applications, coded more quickly, and for less money, that themselves went out into the wild and helped to organize people's lives, or save them time, or money, and so contributed to the well being of humanity itself and perhaps brought us one step closer to the Singularity. So he's got that going for him, which is pretty good.

</comment><comment><USER37> I don't get it.

Is he talking about people who modified/improved Mongrel and then didn't release the patches or credit him?

Because I don't see how the GPL would affect people who just _use_ the software in their stack.

</comment><comment><USER38> Thanks for sharing, but I do definitely disagree on a few points. Primarily, and boiled down, it's a fundamental disagreement on the motivation of open source software. Where I totally agree with your sentiment of wanting compensation for your generally great karma, there's also no guarantee when you release your code that it will ever profit you in any way other than notoriety and useful code.

I think the way the open source model works is by creating a business (support or consultation) around your software, or by writing open source software from your own needs (often in support/consultation).

We often associate ourselves too closely with our software, both in its failure and its success. We should make sure to keep ourselves somewhat disconnected. We do this in part by releasing something as open source, but that's just the first step.

<comment><USER39> Everyone has their own motivations for writing open source software. Some of them just feel that if you are using help from others (using GPLed software), you need to pay back in kind (under certain conditions).

In the end, GPL does not care much about the developer's right. It cares more about the rights of the end users. (That's why it mostly kicks in upon distribution). On the other hand, BSD does not care about its developers, nor its users. Otherwise Theo De Raadt wouldn't be writing caustic emails on how Sun bundled his software without giving him a cent in return...............

And in a way I agree with Zed. Instead of bad mouthing GPL, people will do better to let the market deal with it - if enough coders do not want to use GPL, surely it will die a natural death.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Zed's damn right. I love free software as much as the next guy, but damn some people complain. If a man sits down and codes something, it's his decision to license it anyway he wants, and that includes NOT open sourcing it if he sees fit.

Personally, I don't know if I have the patience to run an open source project. The attitude of many users implies that the developers owe them something. Be bloody grateful, or STFU.

A guy named Mike develops free audio plugins for linux. (linuxdsp.co.uk) Obviously well done, and based on what I've heard, they sound good, but the only thing some people can see is the fact it's not open source. Reminds me of the doctrinal wars I used to participate in when I was a Christian.

And hey, the Bible does say "the labourer is worthy of his wages"....

</comment><comment><USER21> The only problem I have with this article is that Zed assumes that the software is given away for free. You _can_ charge whatever amount you like for GPL software, it's just that a lot of developers feel bad about asking for $$ like that.

<comment><USER41> It's true that you _can_ charge for GPL software. It's just not a particularly good strategy. Because invariably, that software will wind up easily accessible on the Internet for free, maybe even with a higher page rank than your own page.

That's why companies typically dual license or charge for support with GPL software.

<comment><USER9> For an example, see the hilarity of when Sveasoft tried to sell subscription access to GPL linux router firmwares -- it actually worked for a little while when they were the only game in town, but quickly disintegrated. Eventually they just started ripping off OpenWRT and died.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I just realized: Zed made a (pretty good) point a while back about how he'll be happy to have all the Spammers using Lamson, if only to make Spam less mediocre.

Good luck getting the Russian Business Network to abide by the GPL!

<comment><USER42> "Good luck getting the Russian Business Network to abide by the GPL!"

Why would they need to violate it? They don't distribute any code except trojans and worms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> Today, musicians make products (music) that can be easily duplicated at no cost. We acknowledge their value by compensating them through the purchase via proper channels (CDs, iTunes, concerts) and express our appreciation by being fans.

Software creators are not unlike these musicians; you pretty much need to have a record deal in order to get the money and the mainstream fans.

In Zed Shaw's case, he's basically using GPL ensures that other people are not using his work to get the record deals.

</comment><comment><USER44> I would understand this rant if he were promoting AGPL exclusively. Can anyone explain how (L)GPL vs. BSD relates to any of his points?

</comment><comment><USER45> What Zed explains is really the idea behind GPL. getting something back for community.

</comment><comment><USER46> I totally agree with what Zed says there. And he rocks.

</comment><comment><USER47> I completely agree with Zed regarding the licensing. If it is so revolutionary and gpl is unacceptable then we should just buy the right to not abide by gpl from the author.

However what happenbs if Zed gets hit by a truck tomorrow and dies. Is all hope for companies using gpled stuff for their own use gone as well?

</comment><comment><USER48> "The other reason I love writing email software is nobody else does. You guys are all giant pansies, even with a project like Lamson you're still all afwaid of big bad monsta SMTP."

<http://james.apache.org/>

</comment><comment><USER48> [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Bill_Gate...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Bill_Gates_Letter_to_Hobbyists.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER49> this is ridiculous. who cares about licenses. just get the stuff done. doesn't make any sense to argue about license. just choose the first one.

</comment><comment><USER50> Does anybody actually read, let alone abide by these open source licenses? I can't imagine actually picking through one of them and making strategy decisions based on them. Has anybody ever actually been called on it? Are there really companies that have open-sourced their entire product just because they use some random little GPL library?

I tend to avoid using 3rd party code, as it invariably ends up being garbage, but I'm happy to use the odd open source software package to do my work. If any of those packages stuck some silly gotcha clause into their license agreement, I wouldn't know about it. And I certainly wouldn't spend my time worrying about it.

<comment><USER51> _Does anybody actually read, let alone abide by these open source licenses?_

Of course. If you don't, you can't use the code. Thousands of companies and millions of individuals are abiding by these open source licenses every day.

 _I can't imagine actually picking through one of them and making strategy decisions based on them._

Then you can't use the code. You'll have to buy non-Open licensed code, or write it yourself.

 _Has anybody ever actually been called on it?_

Yes. Though it rarely comes to lawsuits. The GPL is a pretty strong license, from a legal perspective. The people who've tested it aggressively have suffered the consequences (SCOX, for example). Some others (The Artistic License, for example) are more questionable and less strong from a legal perspective, but even the weak ones have proven to hold up pretty well in court (there is an ongoing trial involving the Artistic License, though sort of indirectly, but it seems to be holding its own in the eyes of the law).

 _Are there really companies that have open-sourced their entire product just because they use some random little GPL library?_

You've already admitted to being willfully and proudly ignorant about Open Source licensing in multiple posts in this thread. So, why are you being so damned pushy about sharing your ill-informed opinions on the subject?

You are assuming the GPL is intended as a trap to lure unsuspecting businesses into being forced to open their code. It is not, and it's a symptom of your ignorance that you think it is. It is a license that allows anyone to use the code, provided they share the results under the same terms. In the event of a license violation (which is in no ones best interest), there are many possible outcomes, only one of which is opening of everything the code ever touched. Law, including copyright law upon which the GPL (and all other software licenses) are based, has many shades of nuance.

 _I tend to avoid using 3rd party code, as it invariably ends up being garbage_

This says more about the limits of your experience than about Open Source software or licenses, and is not relevant to this discussion.

<comment><USER50> Are you sure you represent the typical developer? Knowing this stuff in the detail you just provided would seem to put you near one end of the spectrum. I would suspect that most people simply don't think about it.

I think of places I've worked in the past and the people who worked there. Would your typical VB developer in a typical corporation know about this stuff? If he did a google search for a code snippet to perform a task, and ended up on SourceForge, would he read the license or would he simply drop the code into his project and get on with his day?

I think hanging out on sites like HackerNews, filled with some of the smartest programmers around, clouds our perception of the "typical programmer". I've worked at a lot of shops over the years, and I can count on one hand the number of devs who I might ever expect to find here.

<comment><USER51> _Are you sure you represent the typical developer?_

Possibly not (I have been involved in Open Source in the context of a business for over ten years now, so my experience is perhaps longer/deeper than some, particularly in the areas where business and Open Source bump into one another), but I rarely meet a developer that doesn't at least know the basic differences between the GPL and a "BSD-like" license. Knowing those two is actually most of what you need to know to develop with Open Source software without handing the legal stuff over to luck.

But, saying "the typical developer doesn't understand" software licenses is no excuse for not abiding by the terms of the license. That is the price you pay for admission to a wide world of awesome software that is enthusiastically free. You either pay the price and learn what the licenses of the software you want to use mean, or you simply can't use the licensed code. It's both an ethical issue and a legal one. I can't force anyone to hold to any particular ethical standards, but, the copyright holder can certainly make your life difficult if you don't follow the legal requirements.

I think folks who don't take licenses seriously don't understand how strong copyright law in the United States (and most of the developed world) really is. If someone comes after you with a provable claim of infringement, it could cost you a _lot_ of money. I've been involved in a copyright suit, and the results were that the infringer ended up settling for $30k, even though no money was being made on the copyrighted work (I was giving it away for free, and so there were no losses on my part; but copyright law allows for multiple layers of penalties and had it gone to trial it would have cost them at least that much).

 _If he did a google search for a code snippet to perform a task, and ended up on SourceForge, would he read the license or would he simply drop the code into his project and get on with his day?_

Sure, people violate copyright all the time. People also pirate software all the time. It doesn't make it OK, and sometimes folks get caught doing it and it costs them or their employer a lot of money, time, or both.

 _I think hanging out on sites like HackerNews, filled with some of the smartest programmers around, clouds our perception of the "typical programmer"._

Open Source programmers tend to be towards the smarter, and more importantly better informed, end of the scale. That doesn't account for the problem you mention of proprietary programmers "borrowing" liberally from Open Source projects without abiding by the license. But, when those things happen and they are exposed, there's usually a shitstorm over on Slashdot and the company in question gets harangued and ranted about and blogged about and occasionally sued until they comply with the license (either by rewriting the offending code and making a monetary contribution to the FSF of EFF, by way of apology, or by giving back their changes and using the software according to the license). One such case was discussed here on HN just a couple of weeks ago.

It happens all the time, and only a small percentage of people who use Open Source software without abiding by the license are ever caught. But, I'd like to think that things are getting better as awareness of Open Source increases.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Can someone please explain to me why people care so much about licenses? I mean, what prevents people from actually going forward and using Zed Shaw's GPL code in a startup? How could he possibly find out? I mean, srsly...

If you're releasing source code, you're pretty much giving away your software for free with no guarantees of acknowledgement whatsoever. Period. End of story. Deal with it. Licensing it with the GPL will not give you magical special powers over the code and prevent people from making evil money from your lost nights of coding. It is a especially futile endeavor if you're writing software that runs on servers.

It sounds like Zed Shaw is pissed because the entire RoR community used his server and he didn't get any money from it, or any cool job, even. I, for one, think Mongrel lacked a good deal of branding, and Zed's online personality doesn't seem to have helped much. Compare Mongrel with Ruby Enterprise Edition and Passenger. These guys are fucking geniuses coz they wrote awesome opensource software and had an awesome business-y site to accompany it.

<comment><USER53> " _I mean, what prevents people from actually going forward and using Zed Shaw's GPL code in a startup?_ " Decency. It turns out that quite a lot of people have some of that.

<comment><USER52> Sure. I just don't think it would have been all that much different if Zed had licensed Mongrel with the GPL to start with. It would still have been a mostly unmentioned piece of software atop many other unmentioned GPL-licensed software startups still use. My point is that if you're looking for proper recognition of your work, licensing it the GPL is not a totally effective path to take, in all practicality. Or rather, it's not the /only/ thing you need to do. Actually, it's surprising how many business-y people I know have no idea about what the GPL really is and how BSD/MIT etc differ from it.

If the goal is to be properly /financially/ recognized, i.e., make money from it, have a restrictive commercial license, like it's been done on all kinds of other software for the past 20 years or so, 'open source' or not.

I understand Zed's motivation, I just think having it GPL is a futile effort to prevent other people from abusing his work, coz even tho there's "quite a lot" of decent people out there, there are also "quite a lot" of people who simply. don't. give. a. shit.

fwiw, all the code I write is either BSD-licensed or Python-licensed. Let's just be real.

<comment><USER54> For individuals maybe it is a matter of decency, for companies on the other hand it's all about liability and it's not as academic an issue as you are purporting.

To put it simply, licensing matters for the same fundamental reason any other legal contract matters and if you care about your company you'd be wise to pay attention.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why does a mobile phone need more than 2 cameras? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@rukshan/why-does-a-mobile-phone-need-more-than-2-cameras-981a41835d4 <comment><USER2> It'd be nice if you could explain and explore a bit about what the manufacturers claim all the cameras are about and what they enable the user to do, and what drawbacks or negative consequences you believe these additional cameras might have (you only mentioned cost).

For me personally I wasn't aware any phones had more than one rear camera, as I don't follow any of this, so you're blog post here was my first intro.

All the best with your writing.

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought it was to make AR/computer vision apps easier?</comment>


Ask HN: Opinions on putting stickers on a laptop? - <AUTHOR>

What is your opinion on putting stickers on a laptop? I have gathered quite a few stickers that I am considering putting onto my ThinkPad. Thoughts? <comment><USER2> It's better than window clings on a car, in my opinion. My 2007 Gateway "Convertible Notebook" (what used to be called a tablet, back in my ancient college days of 7 years ago) is rocking a black and white Stemage logo (a one- man band, best known for his Metroid Metal series), a stylistic B&W Metroid (both round stickers from some Stemage album I purchased years ago), and an Evol Intent logo--a fantastic drum 'n bass group. [http://cdn.doandroidsdance.com/assets/2013/10/evol-intent- lo...](http://cdn.doandroidsdance.com/assets/2013/10/evol-intent-logo.jpg)

They take up about a third of the overall screen height. Having the bleeding red heart separating two black and white logos makes for an interesting aesthetic. My image of the impish young hacker is enhanced by some weird-o stickers. If I was presenting an image of the buttoned-up, sophisticated C-level software architect, I'd prefer an unobstructed view of my generic, high-end laptop's brushed-metal screen backing.

Or you could go for the TV approach and just put one big sticker to cover up the manufacturer's logo in the middle of the top.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't like keyboard stickers, or stickers that go on the inside area where you rest your hand. It might look cool initially, but they quickly fall apart.

Outside of the laptop seems fair game unless you're in an environment that is very client-facing or tends to be a bit more buttoned up (Wall St?) then you should be mindful of that.

</comment><comment><USER4> I would say don't go too overboard. If it's done nicely, it can look pretty good & draw attention to products you'd like to support.

For example, on my Elitebook I have an OpenSUSE sticker & on the palm rest (next to the "Core i7" sticker) I have a GNU/Linux sticker.

</comment><comment><USER5> I got a new MacBook a few weeks back and have been thinking of getting some kind of cool decal for it after seeing the commercials. My daughter always puts stickers all over her computers when she gets a new one.

</comment><comment><USER6> Because I'm cool like that ... [https://twitter.com/Clint326/status/497403831899398144](https://twitter.com/Clint326/status/497403831899398144)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: I am a college student studying Computer Science. I am just going to put stickers on the lid, not on the inside/keyboard.

Thanks for all of the comments.

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't see the harm in supporting companies and protects the case from scratches in that particular area.

</comment><comment><USER8> I have imported mi goreng nutrition facts on my old uni rig. Humility and utility!

</comment><comment><USER9> What image of cool do you want to convey-- Wozniak or Jobs?

<comment><USER8> Oh I heard you, Jobs

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Stickers? No. Decals? YESSSSS!!!

</comment><comment><USER11> Go for it.</comment>


Downgrade plan for Windows 7 PCs - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7991708.stm

<comment><USER2> _Windows XP, released to consumers in 2001, was also granted a lifeline to ensure that it could be used on so-called netbooks - cut-down net-capable laptops that are proving very popular._

What amazes me is how _good_ XP really was. When I look back at what I was using as "Desktop Linux" in 2001...

Aside from a few security enhancements along the way, XP seems to be evolution apogee for the MS Windows line. Don't get me wrong, the Windows 7 beta looks good, but my first thought seeing it after Vista was "ahh finally, it works as well as XP!"

<comment><USER3> I think you memory is a bit selective. XP is good _now_ after 3 service packs, and MB of upgrades. Actually it's not really good, just mature. Everyone seemed to hated it before SP2 came out. Before then security was really, really bad. If you were to put a pre-SP2 copy directly on the internet, it would probably compromised within the hour. And then Vista came out, your apps/hardware couldn't run (which is much better now BTW), and suddenly XP is the greatest thing in the world outside of OS X.

<comment><USER4> Even still, SP2 was released in 2004. I would (and did) run 2004's Windows over 2009's Ubuntu any day.

<comment><USER5> Even on a day you don't have a net connection? What would you do, play solitaire and code in notepad? Ubuntu comes packed with goodies.

<comment><USER6> Ehh, to a degree. Many of the default games are similar to the type that would come bundled with Windows 95. The better games need to be installed (as they would on Windows), and even then they're mostly just OK.

Robots is the only bundled Ubuntu game that really interests me. Chip's Challenge on Windows 95 rocked.

<comment><USER5> You had to install chips challenge. And there's always wine... but Ubuntu also has a "Chips Challenge Engine Emulator" that if you had the original copy of the game, you can play on Ubuntu too :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is common practice from Microsoft.

From Windows XP EULA: _Use of Previous Version Of Software. In lieu of installing and using Microsoft Windows XP Professional SOFTWARE, you may install, use, access, display and run ONE of the following versions: Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional, Microsoft Windows NT Workstation version 4.0 or Microsoft Windows 98 (Second Edition) ("Downgrade Software") on the COMPUTER, provided (1) you agree that Downgrade Software support will NOT be provided hereunder by Manufacturer, MS or Microsoft Corporation, their affiliates or subsidiaries: (2) you agree that neither Manufacturer, MS nor Microsoft Corporation will provide you with the Downgrade Software or media; (3) you may not loan, rent, lease, lend or otherwise transfer the CD or back-up copy of Microsoft Windows XP Professional to another end user, except as otherwise provided in the transfer provisions of this EULA…._

</comment><comment><USER8> Can anyone think of another operating system that has users pining for the ability to trade the new version in for the old?

<comment><USER9> I seem to remember a lot of large institutions and techies kept using Windows 2000 for years after Windows XP came out.

<comment><USER10> I was in a large up-to-date teaching hospital the other day, and all their networked PC stations were running Win 2000 with some third-party specialized hospital information systems software.

<comment><USER3> I'm on a project writing browser-based pharmacy management software for hospitals. I have to make it work in IE6 because later IE version don't run on Windows 2000.

<comment><USER6> IE6 - Kill it with fire!

Might be a pain for IT to replace with Firefox, but is doable. I did this for a 60-year-old and then skinned it just like IE so the difference was barely noticeable.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Don't update NTP – stop using it - <AUTHOR> https://blog.hboeck.de/archives/863-Dont-update-NTP-stop-using-it.html

<comment><USER2> It's great to have a coarse-grained sanity check from a trusted source, but I don't think this is really a plausible replacement for NTP (not that you need NTP when you have a mobile baseband and GPS).

<comment><USER3> I've heard that the various GSM / UMTS / etc encryption and authentication schemes are not at all secure (like WEP bad). So if mobile baseband time relies on that, it's not particularly secure. It may be less convenient to MITM though, it's hard for non-law-enforcement to get a Stingray, and getting GnuRadio working for this would be far from plug-and-play.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Ad networks for desktop apps? - <AUTHOR>

Dear HN'ers,
I'm working on a desktop app that I plan to distribute using a freemium model:
- Free version: ad-supported
- Paid version: (small monthly amount), with no ads, and some additional features
But after searching for a while, there seem to be very few ad networks for desktop apps out there. We have ad networks for the web, for mobile apps, but nothing on desktop.
What are your thoughts on this? Any ad network to suggest? Any suggestions on my business model?
Thanks!
greg <comment><USER2> I know BuySellAds.com allows you to sell web, OS X and iOS ads. It does not appear that they have support for Windows apps. <http://developer.buysellads.com>

</comment><comment><USER3> You could host a webbrowser view inside your app and use any webview. Most affiliations platforms should work except adsense and other technologies who need contents on pages.

You could also try to contact <http://www.spointer.com/> . They are doing targeted ads embeddables in apps. They detect topics that might interest users with in-browsers addons.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great suggestion. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Shouldn't you be able to use a web-view inside your application where you display web-ads? Essentially your desktop-apps are web-apps anyway, as the target will (in most cases) be to open a browser-window and display a landing page.

As for your business model I think I'd prefer a free version with less features rather than an ad-supported version. Or a web-app in the first place.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the the tip. Google Adsense specifically forbids displaying their ads on things other than proper websites (because they want to be able to look at the page with their bots). But other ad networks may be ok.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> My thought on this? This would be a step back to the dark ages of ad-infested shareware.

<comment><AUTHOR> So, using a free web app with ads and a paid option (think flickr) is ok, using a free mobile app with ads is ok, but when it's a desktop app it's no longer ok?

This is not about doing shaddy techniques / crapware / spyware. This is not about changing user settings, installing toolbar, sniffing on user's activity, etc... It is just about displaying relevant text link ads inside a program you enjoy using.

<comment><USER6> I know many will disagree with me, but I've always had the feeling that advertising on mobile apps is there to exploit user distraction. I haven't got any source to back my theory, nor any conversion rate stats, but I would say that a big chunk of clicks come from user mistakes, rather than genuine interest in the ads, and the same would apply to desktop applications imo.

This might happen on the web too, but with a lower order of magnitude, since the average internet surfer is more likely ready to evaluate an offer/purchase.

<comment><USER7> Unfortunately your theory is mostly flawed. Industry standard click-through rates and funnel conversion data disprove this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think the idea of web-ads inside your desktop app are a great idea.

You can then spend more time finding an ad network catering to your niche rather than your technology.</comment>


Kasparov versus the World - <AUTHOR> http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/?p=267

<comment><USER2> Quite an interesting read, but I think the reasoning is off because the author is comparing two types of games - one played face to face and one played online. As a chess amateur and someone who has played many tournaments both live and online, I can say that online play quality is far superior simply because people can consult chess engines and books and move the pieces about without having to load all the permutations in one's mind.

Just because Kasparov could have beaten Krush face to face easily doesn't mean Krush couldn't have put up an equally impressive battle if they were playing online.

Therefore, the surprising resistance put up by the World Team could have been due to the format (online) rather than collective teamwork.

<comment><AUTHOR> Kasparov later wrote a book about the event, and states in the book that he expected to win the game relatively easily.

In particular, he had a number of significant advantages that make the game quite different from an ordinary online game, and which make the world team's performance more impressive:

(1) he could see the world team "thinking", as they discussed in public their possible options, an advantage he exploited extensively; and

(2) he expected that the world team would be unable to form a coherent strategy, but rather would be pulled in multiple directions.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Creating Land-Use Maps with an HP 7475A Plotter - <AUTHOR> http://alex.nisnevich.com/blog/2018/09/15/plotting_land_use_maps.html <comment><USER2> Great writeup! Much of my plotting experience is a similar journey of hooking a bunch of rando utilities and file formats together with python. Plotters are really fun and can motivate some really interesting generative artwork.

Be sure to check out the #plottertwitter hashtag for inspiration, and I've aggregated some resources in an `awesome-plotters` repo as well: [https://github.com/beardicus/awesome- plotters](https://github.com/beardicus/awesome-plotters)

</comment><comment><USER3> I used to work at the local theme park and often enjoyed looking at the plen- plotter produced maps of the ride construction diagrams and whatnot.

Why aren't there any low cost (sub USD700) pen plotters available today? Were they just always super expensive and are now only cheap because they are outmoded?

I know Roland makes large format printers etc. but those are oodles of money and so will almost never be bought by non-professionals/enthusiasts. It just seems like we lost the ability to make 'good enough' large format drawings without resorting to sign shops.

<comment><USER4> If the bar for your 'good enough' is as low as my bar for good enough, a combination of [https://rasterbator.net/](https://rasterbator.net/) and packing tape works for me.

I make something with that maybe once a year, which is likely more frequently (total guess) than most find themselves making any kind of big sign thing, and I'd need a printer that would do only this to be more like $250 before it'd be something i'd buy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you like pen plotting, i strongly recommend checking these drawings and the video that comes with it: [https://www.michaelfogleman.com/plotter/](https://www.michaelfogleman.com/plotter/)</comment>


Top Ten Reasons Why Web 2.0 Sucks - <AUTHOR> http://www.thisisgoingtobebig.com/2007/04/top_ten_reasons.html <comment><AUTHOR> There are at least 10 startup ideas inside this post.

</comment><comment><USER2> Features can be products as Twitter and Wufoo show. I think the power of them is that they're extremely focused. If you're on Facebook, you have more than one thing to do and probably won't use the status updates much. But if you're on Twitter, you're there to update your status and that's it.

#5 is messed up. He did 1337 speak instead of doing the prpr thng lk ths. Fscntng hw mch smllr wrds lk.

</comment><comment><USER3> yep its seem full with of it, there was even one ive been pondering for a while ;) too bad nooo idea how to implement it.

<comment><USER2> Tell us more ;P

<comment><USER3> well its a few ideas, including some mobile and a web portal, tho there just simple ideas and not much,i will give a little bit more thought to them first to see if its not just utter crap :s if i like how it turns out i'll post bout it later maybe ill find cofounders here cause im far from technical and hackerish :P</comment></comment></comment>


"How To Be Alone" - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/life/coupling/index.html?story=/mwt/broadsheet/2010/08/11/how_to_be_alone <comment><USER2> This was made (at least in part) in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. I recognize the statue and the train tracks.</comment>