US 'in denial' over poor maths standards - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27442541

<comment><USER2> I read all the comments kindly posted here before mine, and then I read the fine submitted article. Here I will link to the study "Not Just the Problems of Other People's Children: U.S. Student Performance in Global Perspective"[1] that underlies the news report submitted here. The full study report will of course give you details that a brief news report has no space to provide. It's good to read a news report from British journalists about education issues here in the United States, as the British journalists are less likely to hand- wave away concerns about United States educational performance.

As a response to some comments here, I'll note that I have lived in east Asia (I am a proficient speaker and reader of Chinese as a second language, and have lived in Taiwan during two three-year stays since I became an adult) and can verify that the schools there generally do a better job teaching mathematics (and also second languages) than the schools in the United States, at less expense per student. That efficiency in primary and secondary education lets both students who go on to higher education and students enter the workforce after secondary education achieve more in their adult pursuits than many Americans. Children there have childhoods with play and fun, but then they get to grow up to be adults with actual skills for advancing themselves.

For comparative rankings of different countries, showing how many more students in some countries reach high levels of mathematics achievement by eighth grade, see the very well constructed data chart "Distribution of Mathematics Achievement" for eighth graders in Exhibit 1.2 of Chapter 1 of the TIMSS report from the 2011 testing round.[2]

This issue is familiar to Americans like me who have lived overseas and have learned the local language of another country and have read the math textbooks available there. Better instruction can produce better educational results-- and for less money besides. The top student issue is illustrated also by results from the International Mathematical Olympiad[3] and other international academic competitions. The United States has a huge population base, and it has many families in which the children are brought up by parents who are first-generation immigrants who received their own primary and secondary educations in other countries. (Such children do conspicuously well in academic competitions in the United States.) And the United States is wealthy, a heritage from the good governance structure set up by the United States federal Constitution. But even at that, the United States national team can be beat at the International Mathematical Olympiad by countries that have many fewer people and much poorer economies. Some countries have a very impressive group of top students.

[1] [http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG14-01_NotJust...](http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG14-01_NotJust.pdf)

[2] [http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Cha...](http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Chapter1.pdf)

[3] [http://www.imo-official.org/](http://www.imo-official.org/)

</comment><comment><USER3> In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs on par with Turkey.

What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good education is by raffle.

<comment> at-fates-hands I totally agree and am depressed that places like inner cities have such a hard time getting more charter schools and competition that would give these kids and their families a shot at a decent education.

Is it politics? Teachers unions? Getting good admin people? What's holding back these places from getting ahead?

As a comparison, my sister lives on the outskirts of a large metro area and their school has been teaching STEM for almost 10 years now.

<comment><USER4> >What's holding back these places from getting ahead?

There is no motivation for someone to teach in inner cities beyond a sense of civic duty. I live in a city with terrible (unaccredited) schools. Students in those schools are often openly hostile to teachers and faculty. Administration is often on the verge of a breakdown due to the pressure to "turn things around." Why would anyone want to teach there? I know I didn't want to.

If you think it's a travesty that talented and bright teachers want to avoid inner cities then you should do it yourself. That's what I say to anyone who brings this up. Often I will be told, "But that's where you're needed!"

"So are you," is my response.

<comment> at-fates-hands This is probably one of the main things I did leave out, which is the socioeconomic toll of broken families, absentee parents and the lure of drugs and gang culture.

>>> If you think it's a travesty that talented and bright teachers want to avoid inner cities then you should do it yourself.

I can't argue with you there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I taught high school physics for a semester and the math abilities of these students (many considered top students) were abysmal. Somehow several of these students had received As and Bs in Algebra 2 but were unable to transform f = ma into a = f/m. They also had a very flawed understanding of how to solve quadratics.

I later realized that the issue is that mathematics is often taught as procedural. Students are taught a process (a set of steps to follow) that will take you from A to B. This works very well when you can remember all of the steps but if you forget one step you will always get the wrong answer. Almost none of these students could reason abstractly about the nature of the equations they were looking at. They could only refer to prior experiences following a sort of algebra recipe.

<comment><USER5> Well, surely more standardized testing will fix that right up.

<comment><USER6> If there is a better way to evaluate educational systems and educators, then it should become the minimum standard. I.e., it would still be "standardized testing". I don't know why that phrase became a thought-terminating cliché.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I think the thing that distresses me the most is that any attempt that has been made to alleviate the situation (like the common core) has been stamped "big government" by people who seem to _not_ understand the urgency of this situation.

I'm out of ideas. What do we do?

EDIT: added a not. Wow did that change what I meant to say.

<comment><USER8> One size fits all is surely the answer.

<comment><USER7> The whole point of the common core, from my understanding was to be vague enough to let local governments decide how best to implement it. They were trying to avoid "one size fits all."

Having everyone in the same page with regards to an overall standard seems good in my book.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I am fully aware that the American public education system is far from excellent, I am always skeptical of reports that laud China, Korea, and Japan as paragons of math and science instruction. What exactly is being measured here? Arithmetic and the ability to solve word problems of a few known formats is not mathematics. I do not want my future children to be calculators, I want them to be thinkers. There is creativity and beauty in math, and what worries me is not that it does not exist in the current implementation, but that it does not exist in the _ideal_ implementation.

Of course, I'm also one of those people who doesn't particularly care whether a college education prepares me for a job, because that's really not the point.

See also: Lockhart's Lament (pdf at [http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsL...](http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf))

<comment><USER10> This report is based on PISA test results, and you can find some sample questions here: [http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/](http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/)

I think these questions are quite fair at testing the mathematical abilities of students. These questions don't simply test mechanical calculations, but also require applications of mathematical knowledge and insight towards problem solving.

If you disagree, then can you provide examples for better questions to test students at their mathematical skill level?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> There are some major issues with this article, the more I look at it. The general tone is quite prejudiced--using Turkey, Chile, and Mexico as obviously terrible comparisons we should be ashamed of. The article also fails to mention that the two countries the US is ranked between are Sweden and Spain.

There's also no indication of the variation between #1 and #34 on the country rankings. Are the kids in Mexico 50% dumber than South Koreans? Or 5%?

Finally, is it a shock that there's variation in test results between US states? To whom?

There's plenty that can be critiqued about American education, but this article shows a lot of good ways _not_ to do it.

<comment><USER12> Its a news article, not a research paper. And just because it lacks the depth of a research article does not necessarily impeach it. A better question would be "would this information be included in, or be reasonably drawn from, a good article?"

I think this information _would_ be conclusions that could be reasonably drawn from a good research article, and therefore I disagree that "this article shows a lot of good ways _not_ to do it."

And while I agree the general tone is quite prejudiced (using the South as representative of the US is akin to using Eastern Europe as representative of the EU) those countries are not terrible comparisons. Most Americans would admit those countries are not good to be similar to in way of education achievements, and yet the author does make a good argument that America is similar to them, and in doing so impeaches Americans view of the success of their educational achievements.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Education is not under Federal control, I live one of those "high performing" states. Painting this as a US issue is as silly as painting an issue solely controlled at the national level as an EU issue. I think the BBC's choice of portraying the US as a rusty bus is offensive as, again, this regional not a national issue.

I also think the areas named of poor performance often have poor performance across the board, that is not limited to the subject of mathematics specificity.

<comment><USER12> I disagree that the article painted the issue as a national issue. To the contrary, this is the rare occasion that I see a recognition on the part of Europeans that the US is composed of 50 states, and that making conclusions about the EU based only upon information from Romania, Croatia and Poland is probably ill-advised. It recognizes that states like California are big (being more populous than all of of Canada). And it recognizes what many Americans already know: the South is America's Eastern Europe.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'd be curious to see what others think about this question:

There are so many articles that preach the wonders of international math education in Asian countries, and just as many that attempt to mortify with the Asian system of rote memorization that kills any creativity or true problem-solving. Which effect do we think is greater?

Because if the latter, then perhaps focusing just on math is as myopic as focusing within a country.

</comment><comment><USER15> I think US education system is basically broken. Instead of fixing problems you are arguing who is more privileged. Texas versus California illustrates it well.

<comment><USER13> According to this article it doesn't sound broken in the north. I'm opposed to nationwide changes as I am fearful it will just mess of the good things we have going on here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> What percentage of the current US workforce actually draws on advanced (even intermediate) mathematical skills on a day-to-day basis?

I'd wager a guess that most developers on HN don't even touch the stuff.

<comment><USER17> Not very many. You might enjoy the essay "What is Mathematics For?" by Underwood Dudley [1].

[1] [http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf](http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> UK 'in denial' over pluralization of the word 'math'.

<comment><USER19> It's not a plural, it's a contraction of mathematics.

Curiously I think Americas still say they study physics.

<comment><USER18> Do you take Econ 101 in England or Econs 101?

<comment><USER19> I was racking my brain trying to think of an another example. It would be Econ and Home Economics is "Home Ec".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Once again, over again, one more time, beat up on the US over its "rotten" 'education'. Graduate/professional school? Nope. They're talking K-12. Then they are talking 'averages'. Yup.

This beating up on the US is mostly just fun from public flogging, a scam, a way to get headlines.

The US tried hard, poured in lots of money, bricks, mortar, etc., and it didn't work. Details:

Frontline video on efforts of Michelle Rhee in the DC public schools:

         http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education-of-michelle-rhee/

Transcript

         http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/education-of-michelle-rhee/transcript-35/

If the Asians are so good at teaching math, then let them fix the DC public schools. Wait: Rhee is Asian. Oh, well, try the backup plan.

Okay: 'Control'. Control on country of origin.

I'll put it to you in blunt terms: Essentially the worst schools in the US do better than the schools in west Africa and Mexico. Some people won't like that point.

So, I'll give another point: How do the students in Minnesota of Norwegian descent do compared with the students in Norway?

That is, are we talking "US schools" or country of origin?

Next, for "US math", I have a right to be torqued and offended and I am: I'm a native born US citizen educated only in the US and hold a Ph.D. in engineering from one of the best research universities in the world for my research accomplishments in applied math, complete with theorems and proofs. I've done just fine in "math", thank you.

For math in Asia? From nearly all I've seen, math in Asia is not so good. I can think of some good work from Japan, but otherwise, no. For South Korea, one of their better college math majors came to the US for math grad school and right away had to conclude that they had learned no 'math' at all in college in South Korea and, instead, had just done some rote memorization with zero understanding. Then as a grad student they had to start over essentially as a freshman college math major.

But articles like the OP keep talking about K-12 'math' where likely they mean mostly just simple arithmetic; not a biggie.

</comment><comment><USER21> Only slightly related to the article actually but when did the pluralized term math _s_ become a thing. I feel like it had to be recent but I've been noticing it everywhere lately.

<comment><USER22> Commonwealth people generally say maths.

[http://www.word-detective.com/2011/05/math-vs-maths/](http://www.word- detective.com/2011/05/math-vs-maths/)

<comment><USER23> Not in Canada.

<comment><USER22> Looks like it's more accurate to say that the English-speaking world generally says maths, excepting North Americans.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I don't dispute the general findings of the study summarized by the article, but who's choosing the images that go along? The article opens with a mention of the "deep South" and is accompanied by a photo of a rusted bus in a field?

The middle picture with the caption "There is a complacency about mainstream US education standards" shows an anonymous residential street. And the final picture captioned "Massachusetts has high results by international standards" shows a gleaming, gated, gold-domed building [Update: turns out its the Massachusetts State House--that's a fair comparison with a rusty bus in a Mississippi field].

So kids in Mississippi attend school in rusty old buses, whild kids in Massachussetts go to pristine palatial academies, I guess? Also, it turns out there are streets with houses in the US.

<comment><USER12> I think your comment is a case of rational irrationality.

The theory of rational irrationality holds that people often choose—rationally—to adopt irrational beliefs because the costs of rational beliefs exceed their benefits. In this case, the cost of admitting (including to yourself) that the article's surmise makes a valid point is greater than you are willing to accept. (Likely related to the denial that the article discusses.) So you are being irrational, attempting to impeach the article by drawing ludicrous conclusions from its incidental and irrelevant choice of picture aids.

Simply: you are being absurd.</comment></comment>


Too long? Read anyway. (2013) - <AUTHOR> http://blog.lmorchard.com/2013/02/25/too-long-read-anyway/

<comment><USER2> Thank you. If there are two things to be expunged from conversations within our profession, they are "FAIL!" and "tl;dr".</comment>


Ask HN: Best javascript framework for a new project - <AUTHOR>

I've been using javascript for the longest time (pretty much since it came out) but sofar I've always rolled my own.
The number of browsers that need to be supported and the kind of functionality I have in mind are such that I don't think that is an option so I've decided to use a 3rd party framework.
Which would you recommend, code size, functionality offered and ease of use as well as compatibility are the factors that I'm thinking are most important (did I miss any ?).
thanks for any replies !

  Jacques
 <comment><USER2> Having used Prototype + Scriptaculous, jQuery and Ext, I'd say jQuery is a good generic library choice. Libraries these days are fairly interchangeable in terms of core features, but I find idiomatic jQuery tends to be shorter, more intuitive, and overall more popular (which is good if you plan on leveraging existing plugins for those sorts of things that browsers really should do but don't).

My experience with Ext hasn't been so great because I feel the learning curve is a bit steep, there are a lot of leaky abstractions and whenever I had bugs, they were both difficult to trace and to fix. Also, I feel deviating from the defaults tends to be cumbersome (or impossible)

Prototype has improved immensely over the years, but imho, the improvements are also its downfall: historically, the Prototype API has been pretty unstable, with methods moving from one class to another and some APIs being completely overhauled.

One other library that I should mention (that I haven't used much myself) is Dojo as it is the "Java of Javascript" in terms of domain specific libraries. There's stuff ranging from crypto to comet there.

Pick your poison, I guess.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've used Prototype and Jquery fairly extensively. I absolutely loved the DOM navigation features of Prototype, they were shamefully easy to use. Jquery can do it too, but it isn't as simple.

Jquery works better with groups of elements rather than individual elements. In many cases, the code looks cleaner. There is also much more support behind Jquery... one of the reasons I switched from Prototype was because support for IE8 hadn't arrived, and it didn't support chrome properly -- checking the Prototype site right now, it seems the stable version still doesn't.

My vote also goes to Jquery.

</comment><comment><USER4> jquery. its just my personal preference, each library has its own individual strengths and weaknesses.

</comment><comment><USER5> Another vote for jquery. It makes javascript not suck (or at least suck less).

</comment><comment><USER6> I use Prototype and have never really looked into JQuery.

I wouldn't recommend Prototype (shock horror). I use it for familiarity and because my JS needs are minimal at best - but it's got lots of niggly shortcomings.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Ok, jquery it is then! Thank you all for your responses, that was most helpful.</comment>


Ask HN: Went back to college. Is it a red flag? - <AUTHOR> I'm a CS dropout with 15 years of experience. To stop getting asked about a degree in job interviews, I went back to college. Now I can't get interviews!
I had an easy time just 2 years ago. Almost every company wanted to interview me and had no problem getting various offers.
I'm 35 now. <comment><USER2> From what I've seen at work, for some positions, HR will look at qualifications first. I know that some candidates are removed as they are grads applying for non-grad positions. Others don't have the required qualifications and are weeded out at that point.

Could it be that at a glance it makes you look like a grad? This may be terrible advice, but perhaps you should not list the year?

</comment><comment><USER3> Just don't put it on your resume until finished. Then include it but don't put the graduation date.

</comment><comment><USER4> How explicit in the CV are you about both your working history and then decision to resume study?

<comment><USER5> Not explicit at all. It's just under education with "in progress (expected graduation 2019)".

I'm wondering if I should even mention I'm attending college again. It seems trying to spin my dropping out as positive (which it was at the time) might be a worthless pursuit... Which just adds to the regret.

PS. Had to create a new account.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Maybe they believe you don't want a full-time job?</comment>


Students defeat new 'Barnacle' parking clamp, skip fines and get free internet - <AUTHOR> https://postmediadriving.wordpress.com/auto-news/news/students-defeat-new-barnacle-parking-boot-skip-fines-and-get-free-internet <comment><USER2> I spent a decade in the parking technology space. (Co-founder PayByPhone -- don't hate me, I genuinely tried to make things more civilized and convenient, I swear!). Anyways, I miss hearing about hilarious and genius hacks and escalations like this. The brilliance deployed to work around parking regulations is amazing.

Not condoning, but here's a (naive?) though experiment if the Barnacle shows up in use again... Park your car and cover it. Many car covers have cable locks to prevent removal and openings to expose plates for legal/bylaw reasons, so this should be permissible. This may provide protection from sun, frost, birdshit, and now Barnacles(tm)! My assumption is that parking enforcers don't have permission to modify, remove, or damage property on a parked car like this.

Of course, there's always a tow-truck. Or you could pay for the parking you use, but I respect the hacker spirit!

<comment><USER3> The problem is not paying for the parking I use. That is an easy problem to solve, as long as the price is "reasonable".

The problem I have with parking authorities is fraud. When the meter employee gives me a ticket for a different meter, or when the parking ticket fine is $200 instead of say $30, or when the restrictions are absurd/vague ("You can park here for 2 hours m-f except holidays except 9-11 except in green spots except you have to display the ticket in your window except you need to be 6 inches but not 12 inches from the curb except except except except")...

... then this is the part where I start to suspect I'm not paying for the parking I'm using, but instead I am paying for someone else's large and undeserved profit.

<comment><USER4> The other day I went to a concert and parked my car at a parking lot. When the concert ended, of course there were masses of people trying to exit the parking lot. There were only 2 cashiers to pay the parking ticket — no automated machines. So we waited over an hour to pay our ticket. Time that we ended up paying with our ticket (per hour parking). The cashier didn't want to refund us for the waiting time. If the law doesn't require any standards requiring waiting times — why would a parking operator ever be incentivized to have an efficient checkout system? Especially if they are the only parking in town. Anyways lots of sketchy consumer violations in this space.

<comment><USER5> While I agree that's a hassle, I don't think this should result in a refund. It's like ordering dinner, eating it, and then wanting a refund for the meal because you waited a long time for the meal.

<comment><USER6> I think the OP meant they were charged for the extra hour they spent waiting in line trying to exit.

<comment><USER5> Oh I see, thought that they didn't think they should pay just because there was a long line to get out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My SUS company, EasyALPR focuses on commercial parking enforcement / vehicle control.

First, the people who get "in trouble" are often absolutely brazen in their unfair use of common parking. They're warned multiple times and even when given a "last chance" notice they'll just keep breaking rules.

At that point you have to TOW them. And let me tell you, a TOW is something you can't lampoon or get free internet off of. Towing SUCKS and drivers bend the knee after this happens. I have data to prove it!

Anyhow, another thing about these folks is that they will go so far as to dispute that the vehicle was in fact in violation of whatever parking rule.

They'll say the warnings were not real and the tow reason was definitely not real. They'll tell the business IT needs to pay for the tow. Well, their faces change when confronted with photos and maps and times showing each violation!

It isn't really that funny, but it is a big deal to any facility because some low-level administrator has to face some really pissed off people who will break rules and lie because it has always worked. So it is really important to give them great evidence so there isn't really a discussion needed.

If you want to check out my product, here's the landing page: [https://easyalpr.com/products/parking- enforcer](https://easyalpr.com/products/parking-enforcer)

<comment><USER8> Not all heroes wear capes. Thank you on behalf of all those administrators having to deal with the abuse!

PS: Do you have stats on the overlap between parking violators and people who refuse to pick up after their dogs?

<comment><USER9> > Not all heroes wear capes

The best ones do, however:

[http://heroesinthenight.blogspot.com/2012/08/angle- grinder-m...](http://heroesinthenight.blogspot.com/2012/08/angle-grinder-man- legacy-continues.html)

<comment><USER8> I'll be rooting for the real hero EasyALPR to clean up the neighborhood and _tow_ these caped croutons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> OK, the actual design of the thing where it just uses suction is incredibly idiotic, but the kid who got free wireless internet for months by taking its sim card - that's pretty brilliant.

<comment><USER11> The alternative, tire boots, are equally asinine and more likely to damage the car. These seem fractionally better up to the point where they are hacked. Unessarily connected devices are a liability beyond measure, and it floors me that nobody seems to notice.

<comment><USER12> This is a stupid question, but something I've always wondered about is how tow trucks disengage the clutch and/or the parking brake... am I to understand that they simply don't? So if I park my manual transmission car in reverse and with the parking brake on, they're just going to literally drag my car to their lot or destroy my gearbox? How is this not a bigger issue?

<comment><USER13> Depends on the car and where it's drive wheels are. Also I think tow drivers are authorized to use a tool to break in to the car (non destructively) to put it in neutral if necessary.

<comment><USER14> Aside: if you ever notice a teeny tiny panel that has a dimple or hole to open it with by the shifter, that's the release for the interlock that prevents changing gears without the keys. That's how you get in neutral when the owner isn't present.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> When I first saw these touted a few years ago I'd imagined they would be fairly trivial to bypass.

\- light oil or penetrating oil can be used to bypass the gasket. If it will remove decals or stickers, this thing doesnt stand a chance.

\- exploiting the coefficient of expansion for gasses (as these brilliant students did) is absolutely an option.

\- keeping your windshield wipers up would prevent use of the device.

\- running some 4lb test fishing line taped against your windshield would allow, once placed, the gasket to be defeated by just lifting up on it.

and as always, remember, manufacturers are bound to use a specific set of locks and bolts. Torx security are inexpensive and a barrel lock impression tool is about ten dollars.

disclosure: As an automotive mechanics apprentice, ive had to remove way more tenacious crap from windshields than this thing.

<comment><USER16> > keeping your windshield wipers up would prevent use of the device.

Until the person putting the thing on just raised them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> There's an entire industry of selling snake-oil Batman shit like this to law enforcement/mall cops. It's a delightful fusion of ill will, they operate with minimal oversight and get to take advantage of government (procurement), law enforcement (mostly ignorant of tech), _and_ the good 'ol citizenry (cast as cattle as usual).

I love how, when one of these places recruits you, it takes forever to learn what they're about, because their website is nothing but euphemisms.

</comment><comment><USER18> Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? An alternative headline could be something like, "Entitled College Kids Learn How To Keep Parking Like Assholes Without Paying Fines."

And it's a pyrhic victory anyway, because chances are now the cars will get one of the metal tire boots put on, or get towed. Both of which are more expensive and a bigger hassle for everybody.

<comment><USER5> The issue I have is cases like at my school where they basically had entrapment. At the start of every year there'd be like 2-3 months where it's a free for all and students could park wherever. The certainty was nowhere near adequate parking and not everywhere that people parked was readily obvious to be illegal. Some spots had the yellow on the curb worn away 90%, others were things like too close to a corner or hydrant by everyone was doing it those 2-3 months that you get used to it and think it's okay and when there's no other spots left you park in one of those spaces (kind of like when people start creating a new parking lane in the center of a full parking lot).

After a few months of no enforcement and letting the students get used to parking like this, then they'll crack down with brutal enforcement. I'm talking about them sniping you a few minutes after you walk away. Every year they'd reset and do the same thing over again to get some fresh meat.

<comment><USER14> That's not entrapment.

Entrapment is the state coercing someone to do something they would not do under normal circumstances. It sounds to me as if these people are illegally parking under normal circumstances. The rules about curbs, hydrants, driveways, &c are well known and common enough between every state that there is no excuse that they weren't aware this was illegal.

<comment><USER19> A trap is something easy to get into but hard to get out of.

They made the parking rules unclear and never enforced them then cracked down brutally.

<comment><USER14> Which is exactly why you're able to speed with impunity, even if you receive a ticket for it?

Most places do not make the rules unclear and many rules brought up in the subthread, e.g. hydrants and parking near an intersection, are well known and common among the states.

Look, I'm not saying that basically giving everyone a month with no warnings and then going out in force isn't a crappy thing to do. I'm just saying that that's not entrapment, nor is an an awful thing for the police to do, even if there are nicer ways to do it, e.g. giving notices on windshields for the first week of the semester and afterwards being issuing tickets.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Learning to solve IRL problems - that absolutely need solving - is why we send them to college.

I couldn't be more proud.

<comment><USER21> meh - one can argue with the advent of the internet the entire college system is a farce. College at this point is just for building your network and securing that "dream job" because employers like to check off those boxes instead of actually finding qualified applicants.

Although there is one thing that you can't teach or learn which is having common sense or the ability to apply theories in practice.

<comment><USER22> People still need motivation to learn. Just because the knowledge is available doesn't mean they'll ingest it on their own. College may provide a structured environment helping with that. Or in this case a different kind of motivation to learn.

<comment><USER23> I do think paying for something is a great motivator. When you pay for college, the risk of failing is you wasting your money. When you pay for therapy, the risk of not doing as the therapist suggests is you wasting your money as well.

Of course, I dont think college needs to be on the "life-crippling debt" scale of payment for this to work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> At another university, if you were a TA, you would have a "faculty" account flag, which would give you another option to pay any parking fines—deduction from your paycheck. Except TAs don't have paycheck. The system would deduct from 0, and would not go negative but still count the fine as paid.

</comment><comment><USER25> Like adversaries who attempt to outrun a radio, "outsmarting" law enforcement who have your license-plate number is a generally poor strategy.

Likewise, putting the police-department's SIM in your phone has some pretty clear downsides.

<comment><USER26> I don't believe campus police actually has any legal power. It also isn't the police department's SIM card, Barnacle owns it - of course it's still considered theft.

<comment><USER27> It's worse than legal trouble. They hold your graduation until you return all library books, pay all debts, fines, and interest, etc etc.

<comment><USER28> The usual trick is to drive someone else's car. (Mom's or dad's).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Thanks so much to the university for coming up with the barnacle or I would have missed these really brilliant hacks that seemed to keep improving one after the other. Parking 12 scrappy car was so low-tech and yet so effective but juicing the sim card for months has to be appreciated for going the extra mile.

</comment><comment><USER30> > Obviously, some students thought that fee was ridiculous – just like paying > for parking at a university where you're already paying a hefty tuition fee

I hate parking fees as much as the next person, and totally appreciate the creativity of the people who defeated this device.

However, how should we handle distributing a limited number of parking spaces when there are more people who want to park than available spaces?

If we just say "free to park anywhere!", then there is a good chance you come to school and can't park anywhere (especially if you are not there super early)

You could do a lottery, I guess, but then people who don't need parking might enter the lottery and then sell their spot... making parking even more expensive.

Parking fees seem like a fair way to distribute the limited resource.

<comment><USER31> Isn't "first come first serve" fair?

<comment><USER32> Imagine a doctor working at two hospitals who has to move his car from one location to the other mid-day between surgeries. Is it more fair for him to have a worse parking spot and take longer to get to the operating room because he didn't park there earlier? Or should spots be given based on need?

<comment><USER33> Repeat that but with a cleaner who is struggling to get by with 2 jobs while studying and is providing for kids. It seems much more likely given the location in this story too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> good content, but here is all of the content in one tweet

[https://twitter.com/saallyjohnsonn/status/121719070339206758...](https://twitter.com/saallyjohnsonn/status/1217190703392067584)

</comment><comment><USER35> Whatever happened to parking permits, parking officers, and parking tickets?

<comment><USER25> Boots are used to ensure compliance from those who would skip parking fines.

<comment><USER36> "Parking here [inconveniences|isn't fair to|creates danger for] others, so if you leave your car here, we will make the situation worse by ensuring the alleged harm will continue longer than it otherwise would."

Yes, something something deterrence. Again, in reality, the article explains how that played out.

Proper law enforcement isn't cheap, and if it is a profit center, you don't have peace officers, you have highwaymen.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Maybe online degree programs should start advertising:

"No Parking Fees EVER!"

Know someone that got a master's degree from the comfort of his own living room for under $10K and is now earning a decent six-digit salary.

</comment><comment><USER38> Quote: "The company's CEO says improvements have been made to counter these hacks already, but we're curious to see where this parking arms race heads next." Me too, lol. Can't wait to see as well, I mean you put your low solution vs students who eat this stuff as hobby and you think you'll best them? good luck there Mr. CEO

</comment><comment><USER28> This is just a bunch of unverified reddit/Twitter reposts.

I'm sure the defrost trick works in winter, but it won't work as well in summer.

<comment><USER39> I suspect in warm climates, the sun will save you the trouble of the defroster, especially if they fit it in the morning when it is cooler and you come back in the late afternoon when the car is at its hottest to reduce the vacuum pressure and the seal rubber at its most pliable due to the heat.

<comment><USER28> If parked outdoors.

One of the OU pictures in the article shows indoor parking.

I'm the wacko that leaves the windows open a crack if it's sunny enough and not going to rain.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> This reminds me of when I was in Hawaii visiting my brother who lived in a high rise building. This was years ago so all I had ever know was the lock and key but his building had key cards and the doors would just unlock with the swipe of a card and you could go to your unit. He explained they are just magnetically locked. I asked well couldn't you just pry them open? We decided to try and sure enough with 2 of use we were able to pull past the strong electromagnet. It didn't really seem overly hard I am sure a strong person could do it alone.

<comment><USER41> That doesn't seem like they used an electromagnet that was strong enough (an implementation problem rather than a problem with the design). Well- provisioned magnetic door locks should be stronger than the door or a comparable physical lock.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> "a user who found out his campus only had 12 wheel boots to go around and bought and illegally parked 12 scrapyard cars that could be "sacrificed" so everyone else could park however they wanted."

Not all heroes wear capes.

<comment><USER43> Why is everyone in this thread celebrating people who park selfishly?!

Taking up spaces with abandoned cars is a particularly miserable thing to do that makes the original underlying problem worse!

<comment><USER44> Because using scrap cars to exhaust the barnacle supply is a hilarious way to hack the system for the benefit of other students.

<comment><USER45> How does this "benefit" other students? They're the ones who are being inconvenienced by scofflaws and if it's like most other places quite likely endangered: the same people who park illegally tend to be cavalier about blocking bike lanes and curb cuts, speeding, rolling through crosswalks, etc.

<comment><USER46> As someone who commuted to college parking illegally is just something you have to do. I had parking fines I had to pay before receiving my diploma even though I made the grades and such. Parking and universities is a mess.

<comment><USER47> >parking illegally is just something you have to do

driving to college is not something you _have to do_. it's something you choose to do. parking is a side effect of driving, not a god-given right.

<comment><USER48> If you are low income, and need to get to school but have no other way to go than to drive, what else should you do?

It seems like you are suggesting that some people have other choices than driving. There are a lot of colleges with no accessible public transportation infrastructure.

Many people don't have the financial means to do anything else, especially when there isn't the public transportation infrastructure to support them.

<comment><USER47> what does low income have to do with this? driving is _expensive_. between fuel, vehicle maintenance, parking, and insurance, driving your personal vehicle should not be the "low income" choice.

If there's truly no choice other than driving (which isn't really possible, because if driving alone is an option then so is carpooling), your income level has nothing to do with it. If there is a choice, then low income is not a reason to drive.

<comment><USER49> >what does low income have to do with this? driving is expensive. between fuel, vehicle maintenance, parking, and insurance, driving your personal vehicle should not be the "low income" choice.

At the low end it is not really that expensive.

Initial buy in is like $1500, $1k for the shitbox, $500 for the paperwork you need to legally operate it.

Fuel isn't exactly cheap but it's not a lump sum so if you're poor you can manage.

Maintenance is solved by bringing beer and pizza to someone who does that stuff on the side (for any instance where the upper middle class would shell out hundreds for a licensed professional this is the solution the lower classes usually have). If something really catastrophic happens you get another shitbox and are late on your other bills.

Unless you live somewhere where public transit is both decent quality and cheap and parking routinely costs money then driving is often cheaper than public transit.

<comment><USER45> You left out insurance, which is a big chunk of change, and all of the costs for when you don't have a family mechanic who doesn't charge by the hour and needs parts, not to mention the cost of towing, missed work, etc. when the cheap car breaks. Theft is still a concern unless you can afford safe parking, too - even a beater usually has parts worth something to a thief.

I've had cheap cars before and solidly subscribe to the Sam Vines boot theory: unless you can do all of your own maintenance, it's more expensive long-term but the only option for someone who can't swing the higher up-front costs. Around here (DC) this is often cited as a poverty factor in favor of better transit since these costs all add up and the many low-paying jobs require hours and/or locations which aren't great for the limited transit options (e.g. if you work at a restaurant you leave around when the rail is shut down but the bus takes 90 minutes and driving means a ton of upfront costs plus $$$ parking).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> It is downright amazing how much information asymmetry is seen as a prerequisite to maintain law and order.

For instance, implementation details of devices being leaked are a surefire way of obviating any mitigatory measure employed to coerce cooperation out of an uninformed population.

The irony of this happening at a University, an Institution centered around equipping people with the tools they need to overcome information asymmetry, is not lost on me.

<comment><USER51> Really demonstrates why "security through obscurity" is no security at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> They even ticket employee's cars that are breaking the parking rules on campus.

</comment><comment><USER53> The cards are heavily stacked against anything that uses suction to clamp on. Basically any leak of atmospheric pressure into the suction voids, and it's game over.

You can't easily prevent the the entry of sharp, thin blades between the device's case and the vehicle glass. You will never get a good enough fit on all shapes of windshield.

The kinds of contraptions I can think of that could guard the gap between the device's case and the glass could be damaging to the glass (for instance, spring-loaded steel plates around the perimeter of the device, perpendicular to the glass).

What would work would be putting a large sticker on the glass, which is cross- hatched by numerous cuts so that it has to be peeled off in half-centimeter- sized slivers.

Instead of a fine, you get a notice with a phone number: for a $180 fee and an hour or two, a sticker specialist will painstakingly peel everything off. You are under no obligation to use that service, but if your car is not out of there by a certain time, it will be towed.

I.e. nobody has any shortcut to get the thing off; it's as hard for them as for you.

</comment><comment> ani-ani What the article doesn't state is what advantage the Barnacle offers over a more traditional boot design. OK, there's the online payment thing, but that could be equally implemented with a boot. So why the convoluted design? Is it because you can drive around a bit (dangerously) while the barnacle is on?

<comment><USER54> A couple of things, it's quicker and requires less knowledge to apply, less damage to vehicles, and you don't need a parking officer to come out to remove it; they just dial it in and it pops off, and the barnacled person drops it in a drop box. This removes the need for 24/7 parking officer shifts to need to come out and remove the device.

This thing is also probably sold to organizations that don't want to deal with the logistics of supporting boots, but are still interested in holding cars for ransom. So a traditional boot design may have always been a nonstarter for them, but this device isn't.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> My favorite part of the article: Guerilla'd.

"but our fave low-tech workaround was shared by a user who found out his campus only had 12 wheel boots to go around and bought and illegally parked 12 scrapyard cars that could be "sacrificed" so everyone else could park however they wanted."

</comment><comment><USER56> Original reddit post:

[https://www.removeddit.com/r/specializedtools/comments/e541r...](https://www.removeddit.com/r/specializedtools/comments/e541r4/comment/f9ivr37)

</comment><comment><USER57> Let it be known that putting that kind of stuff on the student's car is NOT OK. A locked car cover may be helpful (would it help with the stuff in the wheel too? even if not, put your own locked cover on the wheel) (it would also prevent people from putting papers in the wind shield, I think).

But nevertheless the students should pay the fine for parking if they wish to park their car in the parking space that requires payment. If the fee is too much then they should file a public complaint with the owner of the parking lot.

</comment><comment><USER58> Normally I would think "break the rules, pay the fines" but I am sympathetic in this case. When I was in college I had to put my bicycle in the back of my truck and park about two miles away from campus because there was literally never valid parking on campus and the school was doing next to nothing to fix the problem.

</comment><comment><USER28> I tried to warn the auto-industry about this windshield vulnerability for decades.

But they all laughed at my dystopian future of crooks running around demanding ransoms to remove their suction hardware.

</comment><comment><USER59> Something like this would also work:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LisjVE1djt8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LisjVE1djt8)

Modifying the car to drive backwards

</comment><comment><USER60> > just like paying for parking at a university where you're already paying a > hefty tuition fee

Kinda like having to pay for parking when you already are paying hefty taxes. Neat hack, tho

</comment><comment><USER61> What I find annoying about this:

They're acting as an enforcement agency without any oversight. They're modifying property and holding it hostage. It's amazing how a company tries to apply ownership towards something they modify on someone else's property. I don't have an issue with reporting an unpaid debt over fines. However you can't exactly fence off someone's house and hold them hostage because of a disagreement.

</comment><comment><USER62> I bet you could get some sort of coating for your windshield which would resist the suction of the barnacle.

</comment><comment><USER63> Is scofflaw parking really that big of an issue at OSU? This seems antagonistic towards the students.

<comment><USER34> the article states that

> After "receiving feedback from the community" – that is, having its new > parking enforcement method thwarted – OU has decided to pause the trial use > of the five devices it'd borrowed from the Barnacle's manufacturer.

so I would guess it has to do more with aggressive sales tactics

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Is OU's campus a drive-up college or more walkable/bikeable? Never been there.

</comment><comment><USER65> I want to wretch when I hear the prideful vocal fry of technology workers preaching with authority while talking out their asses

</comment><comment><USER66> Now ain't that engenious. Well done to the students</comment>


Chris Wanstrath's How to Bootstrap a Business - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlHl6ZD6wlg&feature=player_embedded <comment><USER2> Generic advice. I wish he went into more detail on how to build a good team. Chris, if you read this, please elaborate.</comment>


Now UI Kit – A Bootstrap 4 UI kit - <AUTHOR> http://demos.creative-tim.com/now-ui-kit/index.html# <comment><USER2> [edit] Crap, false alarm, the paid license is still the same garbled, unclear, non-professional nonsense that all of us complained about a year ago and that makes your pro versions completely unusable by real businesses, it's only the free versions that have a real license attached to them[/edit]

On behalf of myself and all the other commenters who asked for a real license last year when your material UI kit hit HN[0], I'd like to say a big THANK YOU for ditching your old home-written license and going with something real so we can actually use this release. Can't wait to see what you'll build next!

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12101122](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12101122)

<comment><USER3> Why would the paid licence be the one to be the unprofessional, custom made (cringe) licence? I would think that's the one that needs a clear, established licence the most. I don't like it.

<comment><USER2> I don't understand it either, and HN's response is equally puzzling. When I initially reported yay there's a decent license I got showered with upvotes. Now that I've added an edit to say actually no the license is still terrible I'm getting showered with downvotes. It's not my fault the license is terrible and we've already had tons of people chime in previously to complain about the terrible "license" for these great products.

<comment><USER3> Ah, the classic "downvote the messenger" response. If people don't like the licence, they should upvote you for visibility of the problem, or make a comment themselves.

<comment><USER4> I once saw someone comment on Reddit how he upvotes people he gets into arguments with so more people can see just how right he is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hi guys, here is Alex, one of the creators of this UI Kit. It was built based on the NOW UI made by Invision: [https://www.invisionapp.com/now](https://www.invisionapp.com/now) and we released it under MIT License: [https://github.com/creativetimofficial/now-ui- kit](https://github.com/creativetimofficial/now-ui-kit) so you can use it without any issues for commercial projects or personal websites.

If you have any feedback, suggestions or issues please let us know. I would be glad to talk in comments.

Best, Alex

<comment><USER6> It has a lot of potential but as many others have pointed out - usability is not very good. On certain screens you won't even see the placeholders in the text boxes. Heck, even on a Macbook Pro Retina it's hard to see, and those have really good screens. Apart from that, some of it looks pretty good, but there's tons of this kind of stuff out there already.

<comment><USER5> Thank you for the feedback. We will take it into consideration for the next v1.1.0 update.

<comment><USER7> For the record, I have such a screen: a Samsung SyncMaster B2030, about 6 years old. Several of Now UI's widgets (form placeholders, disabled input labels, tab labels on white background) are nearly unreadable on this screen.

I actually checked (using [1]) the contrast ratio of some of these widgets, and they work out to very low numbers:

\- Form placeholders - #ddd on #fff - contrast ratio 1.4:1

\- Labels of disabled checkboxes - #9a9a9a on #fff - ratio 2.8:1

\- Tab labels - #b8b8b8 on #fff - 2.0:1

This is _far_ lower than the W3C's recommended minimum ratio of 4.5:1 [2] for text smaller than 24px. And since the font weight is often lower than normal, the perceived contrast ratio is even lower than the figures above suggest. I think the contrast needs _major_ improvements for decent UX.

PS: [http://contrastrebellion.com/](http://contrastrebellion.com/)

[1]: [http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/#%23dddddd-on- white](http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/#%23dddddd-on-white)

[2]: [https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#visual-audio- contrast](https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#visual-audio-contrast)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What is a UI Kit? In regards to Bootstrap, is it fundamentally the same as a theme or a template?

<comment><USER4> It's really not clear to me from the site or any of these comments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Contrast is clearly suboptimal. Lots of multigrey use in controls and noncontrasting colors in colored items. This would not go past our UX team.

<comment><USER5> Thank you for pointing that out, we will do the necessary changes for a better contrast in the next v1.1.0 release.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Lots of layout issues on my iphone such as the nagivation close button not centering.

Bootstrap 4 switched to a global font size from 14px to 16px. This seems to be rendering a 12px font for buttons and such on my iphone. Overall element sizes seem small.

[https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/#global- changes](https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/#global-changes)

<comment><USER11> Yeah I'm having trouble understanding why you release this or even use it in production when the underlying framework behind it isn't fully-baked yet? I've been messing around with the alpha bootstrap and there are a number of issues, the beta version should be launching soon: [https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/milestones](https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/milestones)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Question about how these UI Kits are made:

Generally when I'm building a UI on top of bootstrap, I import all the LESS files into my project, and then compile them together with my project LESS files.

This lets me, for example, change the brand-primary color, or the base font size, etc, without having to override every component that might use that variable.

However, this UI Kit, as well as a number of other kits I've seen take in the pre-compiled Bootstrap CSS and override each item individually.

Is this the preferred way to do UI Kits? If so, what's the reasoning behind it? We build a lot of themes and UIKits for internal use, and would love to know if we're doing it wrong (tm).

<comment><USER5> There are 2 ways of working with Bootstrap. 1: the one that you specified where you change the variables directly in LESS/SASS (BS4). You need to know LESS/SASS for those changes. And 2: the one where you don't know LESS/SASS/CSS and you just want a different design for the default bootstrap. You download a UI Kit that has a new design and it is also containing new elements/example pages. Using the UI Kit/Theme/Template, you don't have to dig deeper into the variables if you don't want or you don't know how to do that. You just start to work with the backend and you are covered on the front end. Now the reason for us, here I'm talking just about our company, don't know why other do it in this way or another way, we want to overwrite the bootstrap and keep bootstrap as a separate file so we can easily migrate from v3.3.0 to v3.3.5 or from v3.3.5 to v4 alpha 4,5,6 etc, without doing major changes in our UI Kit. Makes sense?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> My two cents:

\- The hit boxes on the toggle switches is very small and finicky. I tapped three times before it worked.

\- Some of the controls look disabled, like the slider and toggle buttons. Combined with finickiness, it's a real UX frustration.

\- The box shadows make the animations very slow. On my nexus 5x, I get maybe 5fps at best. It would be worthwhile to explore ways to improve them, like using SVG instead of box-shadow.

Otherwise, everything looks very clean.

<comment><USER5> Thank you for the feedback. It makes sense the points that you have. Since we are constantly improving the product based on the customers feedback we will make these changes in the next v1.1.0 update.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> That Toogle Button in the navbar for "White/Orange" makes no sense as an UI element.

<comment><USER5> The original PSD/Sketch version of the UI Kit was built having the Orange as the primary background image: [https://www.invisionapp.com/now](https://www.invisionapp.com/now) Since that is not the most usable case for a website, we made also the white background version. We just wanted to show to the users that it is very easy to go between the states and all the elements are working fine on white/orange background. Makes sense now?

<comment><USER7> Agree with Sujan, I found it very confusing too. At first glance it seems like the switch's 2 states are "Now UI Kit" and "White", which of course makes no sense. Only when I clicked it did I discover the other state.

I think you could add some space on the left side of the toggle and maybe show the "Orange" label there, or at least just add the space so it looks separated from the "Now UI kit" brand label.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> These collections of ui elements or kits as it is named here never made sense to me. If you designed a nice button or slider or dropdown, hell yeah, publish the css and if necessary js. But bundling everything that might be needed does not make sense to me.

</comment><comment><USER16> input with a gray background means it is disabled. seeing it here as active input is immediate no go for me

<comment><USER17> Did you know that the CSS is user-modifiable? Do you consume only HTML and CSS in the form of perfect templates that can be used by you or your team immediately?

<comment><USER16> yes and yes

<comment><USER17> It's good to be you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Site seems a bit buggy on iPhone - can scroll horizontally

<comment><USER5> We will fix that, it seems the issue is from flexbox on iPhone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Looks nice but am I supposed to be able to read the text below the introduction? The monitor component is completely blocking it: [http://i.imgur.com/GZPY15u.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/GZPY15u.jpg).

</comment><comment><USER19> THIS. LOOKS. AWESOME!

Love it.

Especially for people like me, that still uses stick figures for everything.

I am missing only a couple of things. Styling data tables so it is consistent and select2 for the drop downs.

<comment><USER5> Thank you for the kind words! We are glad that you like it. On the regular basis, we add more elements like datatables, select2 etc. in the PRO versions of the products that we develop :D

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Will Bootstrap 4 ever be released? I have been waiting so long for it.

<comment><USER21> The alpha is very usable.

<comment><USER20> Yup, could be, but by the very definition of alpha and beta means things could change.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Lovely. Could a designer pick out a nice blueish-purple to go with it? Need for a side project.

</comment><comment><USER23> This is awesome thank you!

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> NOW UI KIT. A beautiful Bootstrap 4 UI kit. Yours for free.

<comment><USER5> Wow, thank you for posting it. This escalated quickly :-))</comment></comment>


New GitHub status site - <AUTHOR> http://status.github.com/

<comment><USER2> "Site is currently unicorning."

I hope the unicorn does not become the new fail whale.

<comment><USER3> Us too.

edit: I should expand by saying that we've been working ridiculously hard to update and knock out bugs in our infrastructure to prevent more outages.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I like their style:

"As of February 10, 2010 @ 04:24PM PST

"Battle station fully operational"

<comment><USER5> Well considering that the guys behind Github are Spock fans (I only assume this because of <http://www.logicalawesome.com>) it is perfectly reasonable. :)

<comment><USER6> Funny, I assumed it was a Death Star reference.

<comment><USER3> Some of us like Star Wars, others prefer Star Trek. All of us support injecting a little humor into our sites, though :)

<comment><USER6> That's logical.

BTW GitHub destroys the universe. Thank you for everything you do!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A quick look at the effectiveness of the status page, and what can be improved: [http://www.transparentuptime.com/2010/02/github-system- statu...](http://www.transparentuptime.com/2010/02/github-system-status-page- most-fun.html)

</comment><comment><USER8> +1 for this status site existing and being awesome. -1 for github being down so often. There are multiple websites such as aremysitesdown, do any of them provide similar status pages to interested parties?</comment>


The Story of Haskell at IMVU - <AUTHOR> https://chadaustin.me/2016/06/the-story-of-haskell-at-imvu/ <comment><USER3> Hi! Author here. Let me know if you have any questions.

Andy, the same Andy mentioned in the article, wrote a blog post in 2014 with his perspective of what it's like to use Haskell in production, if you're interested. [https://engineering.imvu.com/2014/03/24/what-its-like-to- use...](https://engineering.imvu.com/2014/03/24/what-its-like-to-use-haskell/)

<comment><USER4> Hoping for a little advice: I'm trying to push for some development culture changes at work, one of which is doing more local, incremental refactors rather than large, all-at-once changes (i.e. the sort of thing for which one books 'architecture meetings'). Since we'll hopefully be massaging large parts of the codebase, there's an opportunity to jump into something new with both feet.

Question: what do you think of the thesis of pure4j [1] vis. frege [2]? Namely, are the advantages gained by switching to a haskell-like language far above those attained by simply forcing effects into a small part of the codebase?

[1]: [https://github.com/pure4j/pure4j](https://github.com/pure4j/pure4j)

[2]: [https://github.com/Frege/frege](https://github.com/Frege/frege)

<comment><USER5> Scala is an obvious option as well. I haven't used Scala but it's surely more palatable to Haskellers than plain Java.

Also. There is work underway to enable GHC to compile for the JVM.

<comment><USER6> To expand on this suggestion: Scala isn't big on purity (AFAIK the language has no concept of pure functions out of the box) but it is big on immutable data types, and mostly-pure functions arise naturally when you're working with immutable types.

Immutable types happen to be something that _is_ familiar and comfortable to Java developers. I would therefore expect to meet a lot less resistance to "syntactic sugar and immutable classes" than "functional programming with pure functions" even if the end result is 80 percent the same.

<comment><USER7> This was the compromise our team made. Our team was having a bad time dealing with Spring. Our lead dev is a functional buff who really likes Haskell, and got us all hype about trying something new. We picked scala in lieu of Haskell because the learning curve with Haskell was a much harder sell. We avoid mutable data types unless there's a compelling reason (interop with Java libraries, for example), and most of our functions are implicitly pure. ScalaZ might have some purity constraint, idk.

5 months in with Scala and it has been a wonderful experience. Now I just have to convince our front end dev to switch over to Scala.js...

<comment><USER8> We tried the same thing, but it did not go well at all. We picked scala because people should be able to learn it easier and more gradually. But we found as people learned FP using scala, they realized how much scala held them back. We ended up redoing a PHP project in scala, then as it was 80% done redoing it again in haskell. And then from there out using haskell for everything.

<comment><USER7> Do you have any specific examples of how scala would hold y'all back in relation to haskell? I actually have trouble imagining how one could justify, in a business, scrapping an 80% complete rewrite to rewrite it again in a different language. I wonder what would be so compelling.

<comment><USER8> Scala is an OO language with FP tacked on, so it basically defaults to "make everything a pain". It was easy to justify rewriting it again because it only took two weeks to do it. A re-write is much faster than initially writing it, you're just copying yourself.

<comment> premium-concern I wonder why Haskell people feel so hurt about Scala...

It's much closer to Haskell's capabilities than pretty much any other functional language.

It has better type classes, the compiler just got type inference for partially applied type constructors, it supports programming with dependent types and implicit parameters allow you to let the compiler prove almost arbitrary things.

If your definition of FP means "purity", you pretty much discarded all languages traditionally considered to be functional.

There is nothing wrong with liking Haskell more than Scala, but I think your claims are not very well-founded.

<comment><USER9> > It has better type classes

Haskell and Scala win and lose on different criteria but for type classes, I find Haskell's syntax and semantics infinitely more elegant, more terse and more flexible than Scala's. Defining type classes in Scala is a cacophony of syntax boiler plate riddled with implicits and brackets. Haskell is much more elegant in that area.

<comment> premium-concern Scala's typeclasses are first-class values and they actually work as advertised.

Haskell's type classes are a mess because Haskell-the-spec (anti-modular, coherent) and Haskell-the-language (incoherent, "modular") work completely different and nobody cares and there us no real fix because both options suck, as soon as your project consists of more than one module.

It's the reason why no language after Haskell does type classes the Haskell way, and all of them do it similar to Scala's approach.

Could Scala have more syntax sugar? Sure! But people are more focused on getting them right first, before adding additional syntax.

<comment><USER8> What on earth are you talking about? Tons of other languages do type classes "the haskell way". Which is also known as "type classes". Scala doesn't have type classes, it has a close approximation.

<comment><USER10> What other languages do type classes like Haskell?

<comment><USER8> All of them? Who else has broken almost like typeclasses other than scala?

<comment><USER10> All of the languages? Go doesn't have them. Neither does C.

<comment><USER8> Obviously, all of the languages with type classes. Those languages do not have "type classes" like scala does, which is what I was replying to.

<comment> premium-concern So basically what you are saying is "Haskell has Haskell's typeclasses!".

That's a yuuuuge amount of languages that follow "Haskell"'s design! (Maybe you should start counting Haskell-to-X compilers separately to pad the number "1" a bit?)

<comment><USER8> Please read the posting guidelines and contribute constructively or not at all.

<comment> premium-concern I have already mentioned three languages that haven't followed Haskell's broken mess, while you have failed to produce even a single bit of information, while constantly crying foul at everything you don't like?

That's just amazingly hypocritical, but I guess the tactic of "blame other people for your own behaviour to make it look like tu-quoque if they respond" hasn't gotten old for you yet?

<comment><USER8> I did not read your responses to other people, since you are obviously trolling. Your three examples are nonsense, two are haskell style, and one doesn't have type classes at all (ocaml).

<comment> premium-concern Ok, so if I understand you correctly: you claim that your failure to contribute anything of substance should be blamed on your inability to read and your lack of any knowledge of the topic.

Well enough, sir.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> It makes me sad how people think imperative programming is a "natural" way to think. I have known lots of people who resist using functional languages for serious projects, marginalizing the "functional" way of thinking as though thinking in terms of "labeled boxes with data in them" (Von Neumann architecture) is some sort of more normal way to think.

Before computers people modeled the real world using a Haskell-like pseudocode called "mathematics".

<comment><USER3> I find both mental models useful. For example, "accumulate all of the monoids in this collection" ([https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-126.96.36.199/docs/Data-F...](https://hackage.haskell.org/package/base-188.8.131.52/docs/Data- Foldable.html#v:msum)) makes total sense as a functional operation. You have a collection and some pure operations you want to apply to combine it all into one thing.

But then, sometimes you just want to iterate across a list of directories, read some files, and put some results in lists. Tail-recursion here feels dumb. Like, dammit, I'm the human and you're the computer, I know you can turn a sequence of instructions into a tail recursive loop for me, so don't make me think.

Haskell, due to its effectful / monadic vs. pure syntax distinction isn't terribly great here. Ideally I'd write all of my code in an "imperative style" all the time, but a row-typed effect inference system would determine which functions were pure, or in IO, or async, or in ST, or threw exceptions, etc. Koka [1] is an interesting language that explores some of these ideas.

[1] [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/projects/koka/](http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/koka/)

<comment><USER12> Agreed, I just recently took some recursive F# code from a photobooth (display countdown, async sleep, take photo, download from camera, recur with new byte[] list)->reverse list, and rewrote it it an imperative loop appending to a normal List<byte[]> and the code is much more intuitive.

Some things are more intuitive as a list of things to do and changes to make.

<comment><USER13> Aren't IO Actions just a list of things to do and changes to make? I'm asking genuinely to try to understand the difference.

<comment><USER12> Yes they are, but I think "for loops" and "mutable lists" a'la Java's ArrayList and Vector and C#'s List<T> don't exist even in IO (I'm not a Haskell expert). That kind of thing has to be done with recursion. They exist in F# but are not idiomatic. However sometimes they're more intuitive (to me at least).

<comment><USER14> forM is a for each loop over anything iterable (Traversable in Haskell) that will execute a given monadic action on each element in the collection. A more traditional for loop is this over a range of integers or whatever else you feel like.

        forM (range 5) println

Mutable collections exist in various forms depending on what kind of mutability you want. For example, there's transactional mutability that gives you mutable data structures inside an STM but forbids IO. And there's IO mutability that removes all the bounds but restricts you to the IO Monad. TVars, MVars, and the various kinds of Refs are what you're looking for here.

<comment><USER15> If someone is asking for mutability for reasons of performance and clarity, giving them STM is like a kick in the teeth.

<comment><USER10> How is STM like a kick in the teeth? In performance? How? In clarity? How?

Can you give examples of STM being a kick in the teeth versus mutability.

<comment><USER16> I suspect he didn't keep the size of his stm atomically programs small. The docs and associated papers and book materials all make it very very clear that you want to keep stm transactions small and try to defer computation into thinks that are only evaluated when the transaction succeeds.

<comment><USER15> Compare the cost of optimally, expertly built STM-using code to, say, just assigning some byte values in a *char array. Instruction count? Cache locality? Allocations?!?

EDIT: Oh, and isn't STM typically just a wrapper over immutable stuff anyways? So he said "immutable copying is too slow for me", and you said "here, use this instead, it has all the copy overhead plus some additional overhead".. that's a kick in the teeth.

<comment><USER17> > Compare the cost of optimally, expertly built STM-using code to, say, just > assigning some byte values in a *char array

This is comparing the wrong tasks. Apples and oranges.

STM is usable for this particular task, but will almost assuredly be far slower. If performing the exact same task in Haskell, you could use IO and mutable memory for comparison.

Where STM really shines, however, is in highly-concurrent environments. There's no great "C comparison" for hundreds of concurrent operations locklessly reading/writing to/from the same memory. STM makes this safe and performant without a change in semantics or additional mental overhead from the "non-concurrent" case.

<comment><USER15> I'd limit your case to "highly-concurrent environments where want lots of shared, mutable state". There's always cases for some shared or global thing that you're transacting with, but I think 99% of code in highly-concurrent environments should be written with message-passing and limited scope at any point in the program.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I have programmed in Java for some time now, and I have only recently dabbled in the functional world (Haskell, and still ways to go before getting any better in it). My observations about it is that functional programming in typed and immutable world, provide better composability, reusability, terseness and maintainability. It does have it's drawbacks - Haskell is known to be difficult for estimating complexity, and i think it lags in many benchmarks.

I think OO can be thought of as an extension of functional programming, except it has some fancy names and idioms (single responsibility principle, polymorphism, abstractions ... ), but in the end are incarnations of functions. For example, int String.length(){..} could be thought of as length(char[]):int function, and List.size() as length(List):int. Node Tree.next(DepthFirstStrategy) could be thought of as traverse(Tree, traversalFunction):Node. But because OO languages tend to be mutable, they lose the benefits of the FP world. However, because they are mutable, they tend to perform better in benchmarks. I think OOP implemented in an immutable language would be over-engineered FP, whereas OOP implemented in mutable language is just glorified imperative programming.

With my experience so far learning functional programming, I think it is a better tool: All the things you can do in OO world, you can also do in FP world, mostly better. When performance is of real concern, then those bits could be factored out into some imperative code - whether it's done in OOP or assembly, C is a matter of choice.

In other words, I think in the order of technology preferences, FP should be prioritized higher than others although there seems to be a steeper learning curve. I think FP is not getting the attention it deserves as a better tool.

</comment><comment><USER19> Interesting, especially about the cultural division and politics.

Something to think about, since I'm thinking of swapping out some problematic C# code for F#. Pattern matching and a stronger, more expressive type system would be very nice. F# isn't as far off the reservation as Haskell, but I'm not sure how well throwing a monkey wrench, at the team will go.

<comment><USER20> Moving from C# to F# is much less politically difficult than moving to Haskell. For a start the framework they're on is the same, and actually, you can write object oriented F# that looks almost the same as C# (not that I would advise that, I prefer to use the OO side of F# as a last resort).

I'm the CTO at my place of work, and our primary app is C#. I wanted to tame some of the excesses of the language, and started looking at Haskell - <USER2> knocked up a few small projects with it; got it talking to the C# app through RabbitMQ, all happy days. But a few months later I came back to the projects to find they had rotted because of cabal. Some projects I found it next to impossible to recover. That left a pretty sour taste, which was gutting because I loved the language.

Then I took a look at F#. It's not as impressive as Haskell as a language, but it really does sit in that sweet spot for 'fitting in' to a big project environment. I've found that creating satellite projects to our core app in F# has been the perfect way to go. It's moved the team into that mindset slowly without having to force the issue.

<comment><USER19> > I've found that creating satellite projects to our core app in F# has been > the perfect way to go

Can you elaborate on how that is laid out? I've identified some existing C# code in various of our current projects that could benefit from conversion to F#, but I'm not sure how the resulting projects should be structured.

<comment><USER20> Some things are just projects in the main VS solution. So for example I wanted to create a document search system. So I created an F# project in the main solution, brought in Lucene.NET from nuget. Half an hour later, done. You can call the functions in F# directly from C#. There are sometimes some type interop issues to deal with, but mostly it's painless.

Other projects are separate microservices that talk to our main app through my messaging framework [1]. It's an actor-model that I built a C# and F# API for, and they communicate via Redis. But tbh you can use anything you like: make it RESTful, use WebServices, RabbitMQ, etc. The great thing is you have access to the same libraries on both languages.

If you're thinking of refactoring existing projects then you could go the mechanical route of just converting classes like-for-like. But you miss out on some of the amazing type system benefits of F# if you do that.

What I tend to do is design all of the types first, as records or discriminated unions. A bit like if you were doing a DB related project you might spend some time designing the schema first, thinking about how the data should be laid out. With ADTs you can design the states of your application, whatever it is, and then you write the functions that transform those states in a referentially transparent way.

Then you book-end your lovely functional code with the IO.

This whole process is much simpler when you start with smaller services; so if you've found sections of your existing app that you want to break out, then that's perfect.

By the way, if you want some of the functional niceness in C# too, then check my library below. It was built with your situation in mind (because it's mine too). It also has some utility functions for F#/C# interop.

[1] [https://github.com/louthy/language- ext](https://github.com/louthy/language-ext)

<comment><USER19> Thank you, that is a very nice summary of the design process. I'll be keeping it in mind as I think about my Skype for Business Online UCWA wrapper later this week..,

<comment><USER20> My pleasure :)

fsharpforfunandprofit.com is always a good place for general advice on this:

[https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/posts/porting-to-csharp- in...](https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/posts/porting-to-csharp-intro/)

<comment><USER19> Yeah, that's quite a resource, I've been reading through their stuff a lot lately

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's refreshing and uncommon to see someone who sees value in PHP, Java and Haskell at the same time.

Nice to see open mindedness about languages for a change.

<comment><USER8> Where are you seeing that? "PHP was not usable" doesn't sound like seeing value in it.

<comment><USER21> The value was it came with less drama among his colleagues.

<comment><USER8> That isn't seeing value in PHP. That is stating that he values things other than language enough to use something he finds terrible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Great read. I love it when oral history in our field gets recorded. One of my great fears is that more interesting stories than not will be lost to time.

</comment><comment><USER23> I like Haskell, perhaps because of my strong mathematics background. My dilemma is should I spend more time developing my Haskell skills or should I spend some time with the new C++ features, or learning Rust, or just programming in the languages that I am already productive in?

When I assess a programming language, one of the questions I ask myself is "How will this programming language help me write correct programs?" In more detail I want a language that helps with four goals related to the ability to produce programs that achieve their specifications:

(1) Partial correctness: the program doesn't give wrong answers

(2) Total correctness: the program does (1) and doesn't deadlock or get stuck in an infinite loop. It eventually produces a correct answer.

(3) The program does (2) within the desired performance bounds specified.

(4) The program does (3) while making efficient use of hardware.

Haskell definitely helps with (1). Reasoning about the partial correctness of Haskell programs is easier than it is with imperative programming languages. Total correctness is _very_ hard, especially with multi-thread, multi-process, or multi processor programs, but I think that Haskell is helpful here as well.

The real problem is that Haskell makes (3) and (4) very difficult to understand. Some of this is that compilers for functional programming languages are magic, making it hard to reason about what they are doing. This is further aggravated by Haskell's non-strictness.

A discouraging look at Haskell: "Why Is Haskell Used So Little In The Industry"[1] and "Disadvantages of Purely Functional Programming"[2]

[1] [http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/why-is- haskell-...](http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/why-is-haskell-used- so-little-in.html)

[2] [http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/disadvantages-o...](http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/disadvantages- of-purely-functional.html)

<comment><USER24>
      Citing Credit Suisse and Standard Chartered is just
      name-dropping big banks in the hope that it will deceive
      people into thinking that these institutes are seriously
      invested in Haskell. They are not.

Lol, Standard Chartered is hiring like 30 haskellers _this year_, and I'm pretty sure they were heavily invested in Haskell in 2010. That writer of that article has an axe to grind, and is twisting facts to suit it.

<comment><USER24> Update: sorry you're getting downvoted, that's not me. I think worrying about the predictability of performance is perfectly reasonable, especially in the presence of lazy evaluation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> So Haskell got you all of the following:

* GHC's support for safe concurrent programming is world-class

* Sound type safety led to refactoring being a breeze

* Fun, stretches the mind (for some people)

* Perfectly reliable unit tests.

* Concurrent batched IO.

* Abstractions for things like timeouts and running tasks on other threads while correctly bubbling failures.

* Fantastic support for safely encoding and decoding JSON.

* One of the best benchmarking tools I've ever used.

And the complaints amounted to:

* Devs have to think more about which String representation to use

* Devs have to think more about syntactical differences from the more familiar C-derived languages

* The team has to support more backend platforms, duplicate infrastructure

* Not a mainstream language (harder to learn, hire for, bus factor)

* "at this stage in my career I don't want another programming language"

75% were for and 25% were against. Frankly the only complaints worthy of serious response were infrastructure duplication and hiring/skill development/bus factor. The rest are people just being close-minded and lazy.

</comment><comment><USER26> Nice read, you encouraged me to give haskell another round.

</comment><comment><USER27> Good read! We've had a few good "haskell in production" articles recently. Hopefully this encourages some folks to try it.</comment>


An investor's take on Microsoft - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/the-complete-transcript-of-david-einhorns-speech-at-the-ira-sohn-conference-2011-6?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2Falleyinsider%2Fsilicon_alley_insider+%28Silicon+Alley+Insider%29

<comment><AUTHOR> This is the full-text of the speech given by David Einhorn (of Greenlight Capital) at the recent Ira Sohn conference. Einhorn discusses his Microsoft holdings and talks about the company's performance in some depth. I'm a big fan of Einhorn - he wrote the book "Fooling some of the people all of the time."</comment>


Navidrome Music Server - <AUTHOR> https://www.navidrome.org/about <comment><AUTHOR> Self-hosted, modern music server and streamer compatible with Subsonic/Airsonic. It gives you freedom to listen to your music collection from any browser or mobile device. It's like your personal GPLv3 Spotify!</comment>


Tell HN: Our YC Interview Story and Advice - <AUTHOR> http://ticketstumbler.com/new-stuff/2008/11/03/when-ticketstumbler-met-livingston/

<comment><USER2> I'm both happy and sad that they're not doing the same thing this year. I really liked interviewing all the companies, but it also monopolized a couple days. I think they took my advice an all of them actually, so it didn't feel like a waste of time.

<comment><USER3> Do selected startups also help in the next round's selection process?

<comment><USER4> Not this time (that I know of).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Nice post! You said you hadn't realized your idea wasn't exactly unique until after you had started working on it. Some may call this a stretch, but I think this is similar to Steve Wozniak often creating things that already existed, just not to his standards or accessibility (i.e. costs, limited time and place, etc.) When a startup doesn't have it's hopes up on just trying to be the first to accomplish something, but more importantly to create a quality, accessible product, that is probably when things come together for them.

<comment><USER4> Believe me, the only thing I have in common with Steve Wozniak is a seven- letter last name :).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Sounds so easy! 40 hour mock up, off the cuff interview, and head to the bar! I can handle that.

But seriously, I'm sure all the hard work that's not mentioned in the post is starting to pay off. Congrats, and thanks for the encouragement and advice.

<comment><USER7> Just to clarify a bit...Dan is one of the best "off the cuff" speakers that I know, and Tom is almost inhuman in his ability to work for countless hours straight and turn out an amazing product.

The Ticketstumbler advice is definitely spot on:

\- Make sure that you know your shit when you're going in for the interview. Know your competitors inside and out (there will be laptops open during the interview and active googling will be conducted while you're talking), and be able to articulate why you're different.

\- Be confident in your idea, but also be open to suggestions/recommendations. Push back if you feel it's necessary, but being open and flexible are traits that YC is looking for.

\- Anticipate obvious questions and have intelligent answers ready.

\- Definitely have a demo/prototype.

We'll be writing up a more in depth blog post in the next few days on the Anyvite blog, but just wanted to toss some ideas out there now in response to the TS blog post.

<comment><USER8> "Anticipate obvious questions and have intelligent answers ready." Does that include putting the answers in the presentation? I suppose their might be some that wouldn't really fit there even if they were predictable though.

Otherwise, I'm not sure if intentionally withholding them until the QA part is a good way of looking stupid or smart...

<comment><USER9> There is no presentation. No powerpoint, no projector, none. This isn't a business meeting. You walk in and they fire questions at you. You respond as best you can and realize that your only ability to steer the conversation is with the responses you give.

<comment><USER8> Ah, what with the talk of the mock up I assumed you at least put up something as a visual basis. Sounds... refreshing, actually, even if it puts you on the spot, it frees you to show your stuff personally, as opposed to through prepared materials.

<comment><USER7> Yep, you actually just walk into the office with your laptop in hand, set it down on the table, everyone gets up and stands behind you to watch as you start driving and talking...then they start asking you questions, you get derailed answering the questions, and suddenly ten minutes have gone by.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> _Our interviews went pretty well despite getting absolutely grilled by Pete from Songkick. It was probably one of the sharpest, toughest interviews I've ever had._

Pete is such a nice friendly guy it makes me smile thinking of him grilling someone (though, of course, he can). So who was being "good cop"?

<comment><USER4> Pete was the only one from Songkick that interviewed us. He was much nicer after the interview :). It wasn't a mean grilling - just a thorough one. He was/is very impressive. Also, it didn't help that we were on a transatlantic conference call.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> "...we spent the next 8 years playing Starcraft" Heh. Reminds me of my friends and I falling into it. Somehow, I can't help but think Starcraft could be a useful if crude litmus test to divide people into social groups. I wonder if there are any entrepreneur focused lan parties...

<comment><USER4> We pioneered the goon/ling 2v2 strategy ;p. I didn't let myself bring my Starcraft CD to college.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> In unrelated news: we managed to spend almost the entire reimbursement check that night.

<comment><USER11> If you'd spent the whole investment in one night I'd be impressed.

<comment><USER4> Hopefully three years from now at Robert's Steakhouse in New York City :).

<comment><USER7> I'm pretty sure we'll be spending more than the amount in that original reimbursement check that night.

<comment><USER4> If we're lucky enough to make it that far, the goal will be to keep it under six figures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Great story. I'm sure quite a bit of other startups and applicants can relate to your situation and its always great hearing about the lead up to getting funded by YC.

<comment><USER4> I wish additional young startups would share their stories. Many of them are much more interesting than ours.</comment></comment>


Announcing the Mozilla Open Data Visualization Competition - <AUTHOR> http://design-challenge.mozillalabs.com/open-data/OpenDataCompetition.php

<comment><USER2> interesting. i'd like to know what users do when they encounter a error message. :)</comment>


Where Are Those iOS-Slaying Android Exclusive Apps? - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/06/seven-point-one-percent/

<comment><USER2> Ugh, MG is so predictable in his slavish dedication to Apple that it's laughable. Is this really an article about some 6 month old market-speak from the ex-CEO of Google?

I'm not going to hold my breath for the upcoming article from him about failed promises from Apple.

<comment><USER3> Why the ad hominem attack on the author?

Irrespective of the author's affiliations, I found the article well written and well reasoned. The problems discussed are real and it would be in Google's best interest to address them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why exactly do we need IOS slaying apps? The IOS slaying part (which the Google CEO didn't seem to get) is that pretty much all apps work on both IOS and Android. Android's going to win because it has price and selection on its side. But there's no need to slay Apple. Apple is always going to be a niche product for a certain type of customer. Just like there are people still very much in love with their Blackberries.</comment>


Show HN: I wrote a .NET to JS compiler. Here's an XNA demo compiled to JS. - <AUTHOR> http://hildr.luminance.org/Platformer/Platformer.html <comment><AUTHOR> If my Linode falls over while hosting this, or you want to download all the files and host them locally to play with it, I've put a ZIP file of the demo up on my dropbox here: <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1643240/Platformer.zip>

Please note that it won't work if loaded from file:// because Firefox and Chrome are really aggressive about cross-origin checks (I think IE9 and IE10 will load it just fine from disk, though).

Questions and comments highly welcomed. :) The compiler is still relatively immature, but I'm very optimistic about where I can take it in the future.

</comment><comment><USER2> Really nice...

I found it interesting that you are with Mozilla considering the guy behind the llvm-to-javascript compiler works there too...

<https://github.com/kripken/emscripten>

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, Azakai's brilliant. The paper he published was useful when figuring out how to translate goto statements to JS (C# supports them, though thankfully, they aren't used much.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nice! I've always thought emscripten is a bit annoying, as it doesn't integrate with the LLVM infrastructure, but instead re-parses everything in Python...

</comment><comment><USER4> This is pretty impressive. Are the any details on the C#->Javascript compiler?

Any comments about Ray Cromwell's comments on the lack of suitable sound APIs for games in HTML? [http://cromwellian.blogspot.com/2011/05/ive-been-having- twit...](http://cromwellian.blogspot.com/2011/05/ive-been-having-twitter-back- and-forth.html)

</comment><comment><USER5> Very, very cool. Interested to see how System.Threading is implemented/converted.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not. It might be possible to implement it in the future with Web Workers, but it'd be a stripped down implementation.

You could certainly run the managed bits of System.Threading through the translator, though; I've done that before. But the shiny bits happen to live on the native side of things, in both MS's CLR and Mono... :(

<comment><USER5> Gotcha, looking at the JS. Still very impressive. Been interested in the Script# project for awhile, this looks along same lines. Good stuff.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I created an account just to upvote this, very cool and keep up the good work! :)

<comment><USER7> Me too haha =)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Worked on OSX just fine w/ FF4. Great job so far! Can't wait to checkout and play with it on a Windows box later.

</comment><comment><USER9> This worked surprisingly well. Nice work!

</comment><comment><USER7> Awesome, the demo is pretty slick! (unlike some other demos, it runs pretty fast on chrome, very impressive).

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm impressed. Definitely an upvote.

</comment><comment><USER11> Really good.

</comment><comment><USER12> Wow

</comment><comment><USER13> Amazing!</comment>