The Lethality of Loneliness - <AUTHOR> http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113176/science-loneliness-how-isolation-can-kill-you# <comment><USER2> I thought the most profound thing mentioned in this article was that loneliness was about intimacy. Not necessarily physical intimacy, but social intimacy. This is exceedingly important subtlety. Too often we say things like "go be social, go hang out." You can "be social", but non-intimate relationships (relationships with people you don't trust, people who are cruel, people who aren't authentic) do not have good therapeutic value.

<comment><USER3> The loneliest period of my life was during my clubbing days in my 20s. I was out doing something almost every night, had a few dozen people I called friends. Sometimes it was alot of fun, but it was ultimately draining... the connections were superficial at best.

Moved away shortly after turning 26, stopped answering almost all calls and had little social interaction for about 6 mos. Then I got a dog and started meeting people again but slowly and in a completely different context. That was probably the most cathartic period in my life.

<comment><USER4> I know what you mean. A friend of mine was saying he was heavily into the party scene in the years before he met his now fiancée. He said meeting her earlier would have saved him years of going out to clubs for the sake of not feeling lonely.

And of course a lot of use feel like it is easier to meet someone when we don't have our walls up. But most connections made at a club are superficial at best like you said.

<comment><USER5> So what's a good solution to shortening the time it takes to meet one's fiancée?

<comment><USER6> 99% of mainstream dating advice is hogwash.

Learn the truth about women. Start reading:

<http://dalrock.wordpress.com/> <http://heartiste.wordpress.com/>

The best dating advice is concentrated on men who are players or aspire to be. But the skills to seduce a fling and a future wife are very similar.

If you want to catch a great woman, you must have the skills to catch any woman.

<comment><USER7> The above advice is probably really good if you think of women as objects.

<comment><USER8> If you can have a Class of Human, I don't see the problem having women AND men as objects.

<comment><USER9> The problem is that it doesn't have a point to it. If you don't treat people like people, instead of puppets, there's very little point to interacting with them. Even if you could "catch any woman", what would you do with her when the superficial fun wears off?

<comment><USER8> Obviously I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was just trying to make a relevant joke.

On a more serious note, people who treat others (be it men or women) as objects/puppets are themselves devoid of any deeper intelligence. I will go so far to generalize and say that they are pretty shallow morally, and a lot of times, intellectually (not quite, but I don't know a better word).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> In a very good sociology course I took in college the professor drew an upside down bell curve on the board. The y axis was risk for suicide and the x axis was social interaction. The extremes of social interactions, very low or very high amounts, led to being at greater risk for suicide according to research quoted by the professor. Average amounts of social interactions had the lowest risk for suicide. I don't remember the specific studies or evidence, but it still resonates with me today.

<comment><USER11> Interesting. This makes sense from a layman's reasoning perspective as well. People who spend an extreme amount of time with others don't spend enough with themselves and probably lose their identity. I guess my question is, what constitutes interaction? Does the brief conversations with my coworkers count? What about a phone call to my mother? Does all of this interaction being analysed have to in person and in depth?

<comment><USER12> I wonder how romantic relationships fit in. I don't have that many friends, but I have someone to talk to every day and I can be around my family.

But not having been in a relationship for many years, or rather, not ever having been in one that could be called serious has started to occupy a lot of my thinking time. It's something I'm reminded of everyday, like it was a disease.

It is often said that one has to be happy alone to be happy together. But might it be that even someone who is creating happiness for himself loses it because loneliness is its antagonist?

I smile when I walk trough the rain, I laugh when I hear a joke, I cry when I watch a touching movie. Isn't that a sign of happiness? Why does it feel so worthless if I'm not able to share it with someone I love?

<comment><USER13> > Why does it feel so worthless if I'm not able to share it with someone I > love?

Oh man, the answer to that is mysterious and beautiful.

Let's separate two things: romance and love. We think we want romance but we really want love.

We think we need another person to love, but the truth is, Love Is. It's present wherever you are, whatever moment. It's just, we usually have our heads stuck up our asses and so we don't feel it. Then we wander blindly around the world looking for our lost love. Which then gets distorted by notions of romance.

Or put it in another way

        The minute I heard my first love story,
        I started looking for you, not knowing
        how blind that was.

        Lovers don't finally meet somewhere,
        they're in each other all along.
        -- Rumi

<comment><USER14> Something that touched me was: "Love is the evidence of the oneness of all things" ... how to say it, there really is only one thing, the universe, and the ego notions that we have of our separateness are an illusion.

When you and your couple "become one" you're just like drops of water running together. Love is the good feeling of like rejoining with like.

When you are in a couple, you still can be "couple lonely" -- you seek out other "couple friends" ... maybe have kids? You want more love, you want to continue joining together with other pieces of the universe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> As a recent college-grad who'd moved to suburbia, I think the automobile- centric culture in America is what is killing intimacy. If you were not able to make close friends in college/early-life, than once you live on your own in the suburbs, it often feels impossible to get any sense of intimacy. Intimacy is built up with small moments, and when every interaction has to be a commute-laden ordeal, you lose the opportunity for spontaneous and random social interactions, making the process of building of relationships orders of magnitude slower.

<comment><USER16> Had a somewhat similar experience (except that my (college) friends lived across the Atlantic).

Ideally suburbia should become a thing of the past (and it might, with rising energy prices). But for now I'd say the best thing you could do is move back to the (inner) city (or back to uni for a post-grad).

It may be a hassle but being unhappy is a drain as well.

I can also highly recommend most European/UK cities, as their cores are where people actually live and thrive, rather than that odd mix of blitz corporate office guests and sniffling economic outcasts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> > It's tempting to say that the lonely were born that way—it'd let the rest of > us off the hook. And, as it turns out, we'd be about half right, because > loneliness is about half heritable. A longitudinal study of more than 8,000 > identical Dutch twins found that, if one twin reported feeling lonely and > unloved, the other twin would report the same thing 48 percent of the time. > This figure held so steady across the pairs of twins—young or old, male or > female, notwithstanding different upbringings—that researchers concluded > that it had to reflect genetic, not environmental, influence. To understand > what it means for a personality trait to have 48 percent heritability, > consider that the influence of genes on a purely physical trait is 100 > percent. Children get the color of their eyes from their parents, and that > is that. But although genes may predispose children toward loneliness, they > do not account for everything that makes them grow up lonely. Fifty-two > percent of that comes from the world.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the math is wrong. Assume prior for being lonely is 50/50. Now, if 100% of twins reported that they are also lonely, this would be proof that loneliness is genetic. If it was 0%, it would imply some sadistic inverse relationship, but one that'd still be genetic. If it's 50%, the same as the prior, it means no relationship. 48% is pretty close.

<comment><USER18> You're misunderstanding "heritability". <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_study#Methods>

The study in question: <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17564516>

PDF: [http://psychology.uchicago.edu/people/faculty/cacioppo/jtcre...](http://psychology.uchicago.edu/people/faculty/cacioppo/jtcreprints/longitudinalgenetic2007.pdf)

<comment><USER17> I see, obviously the math is a bit more involved. I assumed those 8000 were identical twins who were separated at birth. Thank you

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> So what do you folks do to combat loneliness? I've tried meetup.com but the groups I joined haven't quite worked out for me. Outside of work acquaintances and classmates, I don't socialize.

<comment><USER20> stop being a pussy and listen to Roth-era Van Halen.

or...

2 chicks at the same time, man. ;)

<comment><USER21> Temporary jollies don't get rid of the great chasm of loneliness. When they're gone, it remains.

<comment><USER22> It's a reference to a similar topic of conversation in the movie Office Space.

<comment><USER21> I get the reference, with the PUA suggestions elsewhere in the thread, I couldn't tell if it was sincere or not!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There's a difference between being lonely and being alone.

With regard to the latter, it's one of the fundamental insights of human life to, at some point, realize that you've always been and you always will be alone on this planet. There's only one you that is unique and nobody, I say nobody at all, will somehow match you perfectly, or make you fullfilled, or complement you essentially somehow. The only thing you can rely on is to always have your own company so it's better to learn to be friends with yourself.

But being lonely is another thing. Human beings aren't meant to be lonely. Heck, even most animals aren't meant to be that way. The worst kind of loneliness is the one that you experience among a group of people you call your friends. The loneliness may not be obvious until you find the first person who really becomes your friend.

As for "combatting loneliness", I suggest don't. In the worst case you're not only lonely but you're lonely _and_ failing your social goals. Learn to live with loneliness, if not for anything else but for the sake of if you ever must. When you're content, perhaps not entirely happy, but content with loneliness then it's much easier to approach people and make social contacts. That is because you have nothing to lose and you know you'll be just fine even if it doesn't work out. Starting from this context prevents you, out of desperation, from selling your soul for the company of people who don't make you feel good.

</comment><comment><USER24> > At one point, the psychologists thought of designing a mobile app, a sort of > electronic nagging mother, to help people break bad social habits. (You'd > check an item off the list, say, if you remembered to talk to anyone that > day—a store clerk or a librarian.) But they didn't get funding for the > software, so now they're focusing on a simpler and more low-tech fix.

This mobile app sounds like something that would be really easy to write.

<comment><USER25> This will only help so much - it'll soon become a chore/annoyance, as it would become more of "checking the box" than actually "connecting with people".

This is a problem that can't solved by tech, mobile app etc (tech can only help a bit). I'm not sure simply "talking with store clerk" will help loneliness. If that is the case, talking to our bosses and other colleagues (who really don't care too much about anyone other than themselves - in many cases) should help, but we know it doesn't.

Also, we don't need a mobile app for this - just setting up a reminder on the calendar we use, should be more than enough.

As one grows older, making friends (and genuine connections) becomes more and more difficult. That is a problem worth solving.

<comment><USER26> I don't know that you can so easily dismiss other people as not being able to help. I have kept a journal for a while of my mood correlated with how many people I talk to. Granted n=1 and totally lacking rigor, the results for me indicate very easily that even simply asking "how are you" to the person who makes my lunch has a large impact.

I have made some quite close friends of the people who I interact with daily -- coworkers, baristas, cashiers etc. In my experience the depth of intimacy available to you depends on how much you're willing to risk. If you reveal yourself first, other people feel more comfortable following your lead.

What you wrote about how relations with others can be expected to be shallow is, IMO, what the article talks about when the researcher says that you have to suspend the beliefs and assumptions you make when approaching other people.

<comment><USER25> I'm not dismissing other people. I'm simply trying to say that talking to other people, just for the "sake of talking" doesn't help much. 10 minutes with people who we love and care about (and vice versa) is not the same as 10 minutes with a random person. That is why people feel lonely at parties, even though they are surrounded by dozens and dozens of people. Of course, it might very well happen that _that_ 10 mins with a random person might turn into a life long friendship - which would be awesome. Perhaps it is worth trying it a few times (like Jim Carey from the move "Yes man") and see where it takes.

All I am trying to say is - talking to a person just to tick a box on an app, won't help (either of the parties). Being genuinely interested will. And this is not a problem that can be solved by tech. If anything, tech makes it easier to disconnect, rather than connect. It is much easier to spend 6 hours watching 3 movies on netflix on a sunday, back to back, than going out and actually talking to someone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I often select text in articles as a visual cue which line I'm reading.

Why oh why does this site needs to pop up a "share" widget when selecting text?

Websites are really popping these "share" things all over the place lately.

<comment> qu4z-2 Maybe the websites are lonely?

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I thought the part about gay men in-the-closet was interesting:

> the closeted man must police every piece of information known about him, > live in constant terror of exposure or blackmail, and impose sharp limits on > intimacy, or at least friendship

This phrase "police every piece of information known about him" would seem to apply to everyone who wishes to retain even a baseline level of online privacy in spite of the mega-entities seeking to acquire aggregate every possible scrap of online information.

:-O

</comment><comment><USER29> Back in the 1980s, PBS had a science program hosted by Jim Hartz (Wikipedia says it was Innovation). It had a program about how the lack of touch -- physical contact from others -- also affected health. Part of that program showed the same kind of monkey research mentioned in this article. I once had a transcript. Too bad the program isn't online for all to see.

<comment><USER30> My girlfriend (a psychologyst) is doing a postgraduate course on Attachment.

Among a lot of material, she saw a lot of videos of monkey experiments, like Harlow's (mentioned in the article) and I saw some too :) . It's quite striking:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsA5Sec6dAI>

from the article

"Harlow subjected newborn rhesus macaques to appalling isolation—months spent in cages in the company only of "surrogate mothers" made of wire with cartoonish monkey heads and bottles attached. Luckier monkeys had that and cloth-covered versions of the same thing to cuddle. (It is remarkable what a soft cloth can do to calm an anxious baby monkey down.) In the most extreme cases, the babies languished alone at the bottom of a V-shaped steel container. Cruel as these experiments were, Harlow proved that the absence of mothering destroyed the monkeys' ability to mingle with other monkeys, though the "cloth mother" could mitigate the worst effects of isolation."

the article goes on to show how there are different gene expressions amongst the differently-raised monkeys, and even posits that medication could help with the physical expressions of loneliness:

"Cole can imagine giving people medications to treat loneliness, particularly when it exacerbates chronic diseases such as diabetes and high blood pressure. These could be betablockers, which reduce the physical effects of stress; anti-inflammatory medicine; or even Tylenol—since physical and emotional pain overlap, it turns out that Tylenol can reduce the pain of heartbreak."

The ending statement is:

"One message I take away from this is, 'Hey, it's not just early life that counts,' " he says. "We have to choose our life well." "

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> The saddest "disease" ever: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitalism>

Babies died simply because they were not held enough.

</comment><comment><USER32> I liked the discussion about "'silos' in health policy, meaning that we see crime and low educational achievement as distinct from medical problems like obesity or heart disease."

It seems like medicine needs to be less short-sighted and integrate loneliness and nutrition and other non-medicinal factors into diagnoses and treatment.

<comment><USER30> There was a top article recently on how personal visits for chronic patients improves health A LOT:

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/28/i...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/04/28/if- this-was-a-pill-youd-do-anything-to-get-it/)

it's clearly linked to the problems of loneliness - if patients form a bond with their nurse and know that someone cares, they're more likely to follow through with treatment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> and then there are the twinkle eyed ones that spend huge amounts of time alone (hermits, monks/nuns on long term solo retreat). It probably has less to do with being alone than feeling alone.

For lay people, however, living alone in the world goes against the grain; hard not to feel like an odd ball.

Something the article does not touch on is accepting the reality of alone- ness: we're all alone together (quote from an old friend).

<comment><USER13> It _does_ have more to do with _feeling_ alone.

Hermits, monks, nuns, sages, sadhus, ascetics, cultivators, shamans, mind travellers from all around the world of different wisdom traditions typically have essentially the same practice. Each is looking into themselves to gain insights about the world. This insight is at the core of everything:

        We live in an *illusion* that we are separate from each other.

This is at the core of the loneliness. To be intimate, to be connected, is to realize that how we are _already_ connected.

When you know this, _it does not matter whether you are physically isolated or not_.

This isn't something that special people called monks or nuns can do. This is a capacity in each of us. That capacity is something we call love. Not "romance". Love. Love that a child has for his parent, love that a mother and father have for their child. Love among lovers and friends. Love for the people in your community. Love for the strangers you don't know.

So of course, "living alone in the world goes against the grain." The grain is to be connected. _Anyone_ , lay or not, who separates themselves find themselves alone.

Separation comes in many forms. It isn't just physical. Being proud or ashamed is separation. Being proud makes you "above" or "better" than someone. That's separation. Being ashamed makes you want to hide away. That's separation. Being so angry and hateful of someone that you want to destroy their standing, status, credibility, resources, life -- yeah, that's a form of separation.

Being disgusted and averting your eyes from the homeless in the street is separation. Being disturbed and fearful of the mentally ill -- that too is separation. Being repulsed by the ugly and deformed, by the lepers and unclean, yeah, that is separation.

Being special: heh, yeah, that's the very essence of separation.

We're not "alone together". In wanting to be special, to be unique, to have our brand of personality, we want to carve out this little corner of "me". And in the very doing so, we create distance.

So get in touch with yourself; get in touch with your family and friends. Start with some affection, that's pretty easy :-)

<comment><USER34> Best comment of this article IMHO. Posting this just to catch the reader eye and maybe encourage 1 more person to read it.

<comment><USER13> :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'm probably entering the most lonely stage of my life at the moment, having my 3rd alcohol related arrest has really pushed me further down the hole.

Despite all of my legal problems, I'm still holding down the same job, but I feel at my age I've really done myself in. Obviously booze is a problem of which I've completely eradicated from my life over the past 2 months. The really sad part is I'm well adjusted otherwise and I graduated from a top CS program. I've wanted to work abroad but I feel I'm trapped now by my past and I'm really out of options to socialize on any meaningful level. I don't really know what to do at this point. This article spelled out a life of doom for me.

For what its worth I'm 28 and have 2 duis and a public intox charge.

<comment><USER36> 1\. Your subjective view of your own situation is very negative - "done myself in", "a life of doom" etc.

2\. At the same time your situation is objectively good - you have a good profession and a good job, you're not complaining about health problems other than alcohol dependency, and you kicked the alcohol for two months now. Even if you went to jail you're out free now. The whole life is in front of you.

Given the obvious contradiction here, I suggest that you should not trust your own judgement, and instead defer to someone else until your judgement is repaired. This sort of discrepancy is indicative of anxiety-type disorder, the kind that impairs your ability to evaluate your situation and makes everything looks worse than it is. The best you can do is seek help from a professional psychotherapist, and do exactly as they instruct you. Do not deviate, do not "optimize", do not skip steps. Suspend all judgement and do exactly as you're told. Use your logical side to overrule your emotional side and just follow the program, because it's the right thing to do.

<comment><USER35> Thanks for the reply. The PI charge can be expunged next year so really I'll only have the 2 duis (one of which is ongoing but the nature of DUI laws its pretty much going to end up a conviction). Even before the first sight of legal trouble I was considering therapy but ive been afraid of being subscribed medication that may disconnect me even further or the social stigmatism of needing mental health help. Having your reply though has offered a much needed outside opinion.

<comment><USER36> Discuss it with therapist if you would prefer to reserve drugs as a last resort, and try all the other, non-chemical things first, such as CBT. You might even start by looking for a CBT-specializing therapist, as you are more likely to find understanding from them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I do get a good dose of intimacy from online conversations with closes friends, and they do not even have to be in the same continent. In my country, kids in their teens (maybe even 20s) can't imagine a world without the internet (i.e. Facebook and Google). The internet is just that pervasive.

I'd really like to see a study on the effect online social networks have on our collective mental health. My gut feel is that social networks are a positive thing. I'm just happy that I will be able to maintain a certain level of intimacy with friends when I'm older and less mobile.

</comment><comment><USER38> I wonder is anyone else feeling that the stigma of being alone is much worse than actually being alone? Thing is, if you voluntarily spend your weekends playing games, coding, walking in the nature or any other non-social activity it reflects negatively upon you. I've spent a lot of holidays all by myself doing what I enjoy, eating the holiday candy I like the most, and just relaxing. From what I can tell, "normal" people would feel miserable spending their time like that, so they assume that I too must feel miserable.

</comment><comment><USER39> This caught my eye:

>In operations performed to relieve chronic pain, doctors have lesioned, or disabled, the dorsal anterior cingulate cortex. After the surgery, the patients report that they can still sense where the trouble comes from, but, they add, it just doesn't bother them anymore.

So there is a surgical procedure that removes the negative feelings of pain, without removing the actual feeling? What are the downsides to this procedure? I'm sure I must be missing something, but as described it sounds like something some, or even a lot of adults without chronic pain would want to get voluntarily. It seems perfect for people that need intense physical therapy in order to walk. Also for people like elite military operatives that may have to undergo extreme circumstances like torture. Would this surgery just make people not care about torture? Also for athletes, who could now push themselves to the physical limit due to now being able to endure great pain without being bothered.

</comment><comment><USER40> "Did God want us to die when we got stressed? The answer is no. What He wanted is for us not to be alone. Or rather, natural selection favored people who needed people."

These are both the same thing though. Essentially we're herd animals, and as such we're designed to die if we aren't contributing to the herd. Probably so that if we can't pass on our own genes we can at least increase the chances that someone with similar genes can pass theirs along, by virtue of not wasting resources.

<comment><USER41> We're not herd animals -- more like band or pack animals. We have a more sophisticated social structure with more complex roles than is implied by the term "herd".

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Isolation, not voluntary loneliness. And all the harmful effects, it seems, related to the stress and anxiety.

Voluntary loneliness, on the contrary, is beneficial, at least, to some yogis and Himalayan saints.)</comment>


Show HN: Oya – New projects set up lightning fast - <AUTHOR> https://oya.sh/ <comment><USER2> There's too much obfuscation of what this software does. "New projects set up lightning fast" makes me think this is a generator framework like [https://yeoman.io/](https://yeoman.io/) but the examples show an abstraction around bash snippets for running tasks.

It does seem to do both things but only after a bit of digging; and it's still not clear what kind of experience I'll have using packs.

To make the homepage compelling, I suggest;

1\. Remove the illustrations, double-headings (like "Example usage/How to use..."), hero stuff, testimonials from your team. These are distracting

2\. Start with the features, not `curl | bash`. I'll download after I've decided I need these features.

3\. Number the core features and list them in order of importance. Show (gif or terminal session text) how each feature works. I think you should cover:

\- task runner feature

\- templating feature

\- scaffolding feature

\- dependencies/modules/reuse between repos.

4\. Move tutorial to page 2 so the features take center stage.

5\. Drain away talk of ecosystem. You are just starting out with this. There is no ecosystem yet, so it is not a feature. Instead, specifically talk about the add-ons you already built, and how they can help me.

<comment><USER3> > There's too much obfuscation of what this software does. "New projects set > up lightning fast" makes me think this is a generator framework like > [https://yeoman.io/](https://yeoman.io/)

Wow, how did you guess that it was even in the ballpark of yeoman?

> New projects set up lightning fast ... Oya with its ecosystem of powerful, > reusable packs lets you bootstrap deployable projects without a hassle.

AFAICT this could describe work in virtually any programming domain. Who doesn't create new projects or need them to be deployable?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I went through most of the documentation but I still don't understand how this will help me in any way. I don't understand what it is?

> Become a hero

Marketing jargon like this is IMO very tiring. I am a hero because I use your product? Ok, I guess that is a very loose definition of that word.

I don't want to be negative really, but I have actually no clue what this product does or what problem it solves.

<comment><USER5> You're not being negative, that's super useful feedback. We're using Oya internally but are still struggling with making it 100% (or even 80%:) clear what it is that it does. :)

<comment><USER6> It's best balanced with the feedback of people that have the opposite opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Being a hero is ingrained into our culture, and I think comic book culture is a net win for society, but if you hate comic books and seeing the term _hero_ bandied about, that's fine. To each their own. But I will never be annoyed by it.

<comment><USER5> Thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is really just a Makefile in yaml without lots of the features and the milions of support articles.

<comment><USER8> It feels like a header called "why this is better than GNU Make" should be somewhere in there. With the provided example, it looks like Oya does less than POSIX Make (which is significantly less powerful than either BSD or GNU Make).

<comment><USER8> They do mention this in their documentation now, but don't offer any concrete examples of where it can even compete with Make.

> _If you're familiar with Makefiles, you may have noticed some similarity > here. The main difference is because we're using standard YAML files, is the > pipe character after task name. An added bonus you don't have to use tabs. : > >_

> _If all Oya offered was poor-man's Makefiles, you'd better find something > better to do. Fortunately, Oya has much more to offer so keep reading._

The password encryption functionality looks useful but you could probably just use SOPS in your Makefile.

<comment><USER9> Ignoring that a Makefile makes more sense than a yaml file anyway (what the is a "standard yaml file"?), "you don't have to use tabs" really shows how ridiculous things have gotten.

I can't believe someone spent $35 on a domain for this much less however many man hours went into it.

<comment><USER8> I wouldn't quite go _that_ far (since it obviously has some value for the people who use it over Make, despite the fact that they are unable to communicate it effectively; at the very least it was a good learning experience for the authors), but you should see how much code did go into the project: [https://github.com/tooploox/oya/tree/master/pkg](https://github.com/tooploox/oya/tree/master/pkg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > curl [https://oya.sh/get](https://oya.sh/get) | bash

You lost me right there. No checksum, no digital signature - if your server gets hacked, so do your customers.

Why don't you use your github releases in the installation instructions?

<comment><USER11> Since it's HTTPS, a signature or checksum are pretty pointless, TLS will do the certificate checking and encryption for you.

Your assertion that "if your server gets hacked, so do your customers", also applies to a checksum, as the hackers would just change the checksum listed on the website.

If you have a problem with piping curl to bash, then you can just not do so, you can download the bash script, see what it does, and modify it before running it. It's only 140 lines and it's fairly simple.

Further to your point, the bash script also does checksums internally!

Putting releases up on github isn't a bad idea, but their github account credentials could also be hacked, so it's no more secure than this really.

<comment><USER12> _Since it 's HTTPS, a signature or checksum are pretty pointless, TLS will do the certificate checking and encryption for you._

Serving the file over HTTPS is good because it means no one can do a man in the middle attack to change it, but it's not enough to be secure. If someone compromises the server itself the file could be altered at the source. The point of the checksum is to ensure that the file you're downloading is the file you're expecting. If you host the file in one place and the website in a different place it's harder for an attacker to change both the file and the website that reports the checksum, so you can be much more confident the file is correct. HTTPS on it's own doesn't give you that.

<comment><USER13> > If you host the file in one place and the website in a different place it's > harder for an attacker to change both the file and the website that reports > the checksum, ...

That is not a practical solution _at all_. What do users find if they enter the "download" page? A link to an external site containing the checksum? Wouldn't an attacker just replace (or remove!) the link?

The reality of today's identity management is TLS and certificates. If your website is [https://oya.sh](https://oya.sh), then _obviously_ any attacker who has access to the web server can direct clients to their malware downloads. No extra servers will help against that.

<comment><USER14> Perhaps not practical, but I could see this as one actually useful example of how a blockchain-style distributed ledger could be used. Have two accounts, one posts the binaries, another posts the checksums. That way one account breach doesn't compromise the whole thing, and the ledger could prove the history, etc.

<comment><USER13> Agreed. There could be better solutions than the current reliance on X.509 certificates and TLS, for example a blockchain solution like you propose.

But the fact that these solutions do not exist or at least aren't commonplace, makes the criticism to Oya in this regard rather awkward. They are doing what everybody does for their downloads: Relying on the certificate chain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I would say: It is better to have no "testomonial" at all than to quote yourself.

<comment><USER16> "My mom says I'm handsome"

<comment><USER5> It this case, this is more like a foster parent; Oya started as a part-time open source project, then Tooploox sponsored further development after having used it internally.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> How does this add anything to my process compared to npm tasks, that do the automated work right now, together with out Gitlab CI system?

<comment><USER5> Not everybody uses JavaScript. There are many language-specific task runners (e.g. Rake, Mage etc.). Oya is aiming to be language agnostic and lightweight (not require a ton of dependencies).

<comment><USER17> Fair point, thanks for pointing it out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> This is a horrible marketing piece...I'm assuming it bootstraps a go project because one of the files was go, but nowhere does it say what language/framework you're bootstrapping...at first I assumed it was just another express.js bootstrapper...

<comment><USER19> Thanks for being honest. Can you tell more what we could do better with Oya and, be length, with other Open Source initiatives?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Let it be known, I'm bitching with love, I appreciate the work done, and wouldn't be bitching if I didn't... <3

I'm so confused by the frontpage of this, it looks like an alternative to Make with _no reason_ why I should use it over make. Seriously, there's not one feature on the homepage that isn't more obviously done with Make... Probably should pull that credentials example outta the docs and onto the homepage. And... on the homepage, please, please tell me:

what problems does this tool solve?

... Why was it created? Because generating new apps is like an "almost never" problem for me. Not to say it's not "un-fun" sometimes, but in reality, it's like the smallest amount of time I'll spend in the entirety of a project.

If anything the fact it's not Make, or whatever is canonical for the language/runtime, seems like a disadvantage because it's one more abstraction I'll eventually have to use... unless there are some wicked sweet problems it solves.

Also, the fact the user configuration language is `go` also seems like a disadvantage. As much as I hate to say it, JavaScript would probably be a better choice if you need users to have access to a language for scripting tasks (I know nothing about go but a quick google gave me this: [https://github.com/jingweno/godzilla](https://github.com/jingweno/godzilla)). Does it already support multiple languages? Examples of that would be awesome too.

One love. Hope my comments are constructive for y'all.

</comment><comment><USER21> Seems like Yeoman? [https://yeoman.io/](https://yeoman.io/)

<comment><USER5> Scaffolding is just a part of what Oya. The purpose is not just creating new projects but also making managing them easier with focus on devops.

You can: 1\. Create bash-based tasks similar to what Makefiles do.

2\. You can parametrize these tasks AND templates using YAML files such as values.oya (they can be encrypted).

3\. You can share/reuse your scripts by just pushing them to Github and tagging using a version and then import them into your Oyafile (`oya import github.com/bilus/mypack`)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> IMHO using Ansible to configure new projects is probably a more robust solution than using something like this. Although Ansible is generally focused on CM solutions for dev/testing/prod environments there is no reason why you couldn't use it for developer workstations as well. There are obviously way more Ansible plugins and examples online and it has far more capabilities than this product. I don't understand what this is really going to buy me over something like that. The only thing I can possibly see is the whole pack concept for a development project, but I honestly think something like that could be built on top of Ansible as a base and be far more powerful.

</comment><comment><USER23> It's really frustrating to read about a sw product and not understand what it does. idk if I'm dumb, or it's a generation gap. Is this oya thing so complex it cannot be described in a way a fellow developer could understand?

<comment><USER24> I get this impression with quite a few software project websites. They sometimes seem to assume that anyone who visits their website has experience in a specific area. I mean nothing against going for your target audience, but in some cases it's hard to tell if I just don't get it or if it's something that doesn't concern me anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I don't like to go meta, but this is the meanest response to a Show HN I've seen in a while. Almost every comment is a reason why it sucks or a random nitpick.

If you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say anything at all.

<comment><USER26> This comment makes no sense. Show HN is supposed to gather feedback, not "likes".

If you don't want honest feedback, then why bother posting here? I find people take honest criticism as personal attacks way too often. Nothing criticized here detracts from what they've done. If this was my product, I'd be super happy that I got this huge list of things to improve out of a single post.

Compare that to a few "weeeeee, it's nice!" comments.

If you want empty happy feedback, share it on Facebook.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> The product website links on the footer are not functional. I advise to hide them until you have the pages up.

<comment><USER5> Great point, thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> That fading animation on the homepage is super terrible.

<comment><USER29> Agreed, I fail to understand the popularity of this aesthetic, but it is rather common on 'landing pages' for potentially interesting coding projects. It usually just makes the bottom half of my screen unused real estate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I'm an early adopter for new shiny things, but this is dead on arrival for me. You made no effort to tell us what Oya actually is. It's as if you wrote this website for yourselves, not for the general public.

A few pointers:

\- What is a "project"?

\- Is Oya a language?

\- What is this new Oyafile syntax?

\- What actual problem is this solving?

</comment><comment><USER31> My company definitely has a use-case for something like this. We are currently working on an internal product to easily set up new projects, whether they are java, ruby, lambdas, etc. We are using/abusing yeoman to do this, but yeoman was not intended to be used in a pipeline initialized from a web ui. A second issue we have is a blossoming of scripts. Some have multiple bash scripts. Some have started using makefiles.

This seems to be exactly what we could be using but I don't see a clear explanation of how it provides the initial value over something like Yeoman, and how it provides the lasting value over things like bash scripts or makefiles.

</comment><comment><USER32> This seems like a good idea but I get the feeling its been done (npm, pip, makefiles, gist, etc..) or tried to be done a lot of times and I'm not sure what makes this different. But maybe I'm just a laymen and don't understand the finer points so if there's a compelling argument my feedback is to include something about it on the homepage or in a FAQ.

<comment><USER5> I think this is the key question we should address right there on the home page. Thank you for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> What if we could have examples on our homepage that actually made the product seem useful in some way...

<comment><USER5> Thanks, I appreciate the honest feedback! We'll try better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> This feedback is SO FREAKING valuable...

Could really use this kind of evaluation of our new platform.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19964067](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19964067)

<comment><USER35> Is there a reason as to why you didn't title it "Show HN: Koji - An app templating service" and link to the site directly ? I'd argue that you would get a larger response that way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> So it's a replacement for `make` with some fanciness thrown in?

Seems okay. Not sure I'd use it, but the model is proven. If it's a true improvement, it'd be nice.

</comment><comment><USER37> Another one to the list...

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12766049](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12766049)

</comment><comment><USER38> Quoting a testimonial on the website by the co-founder of Tooploox is not really a thing, right?

Tooploox is the creator of Oya.

<comment><USER5> It was created as an independent open source project, then used internally @ Tooploox, then development got sponsored by Tooploox so it does make sense from our (very subjective) pov.

But I agree AFTER it got moved to Tooploox Github it looks kinda self-serving.

<comment><USER38> Thanks for the history lesson, but that history is missing from your website. Others may have the same thinking as I have without the history lesson.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I like this and I see the need for it, being a long time Make user and supporter. Will give this a try.

<comment><USER8> What uses are you seeing for it that the rest of us aren't? I'm genuinely interested because their marketing makes it super challenging to see what the product is useful for.

<comment><USER39> Standard way of sharing project templates (scaffolding). Might be useful on systems based on micro services and serverless. I don't see much value in the task runner part of it, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Just a heads up : Tooploox, Packs and Documentation are the only working links in your footer.

</comment><comment><USER40> Is this a make reimplementation

<comment><USER40> I guess, with a oneline description like that, I expected a project minter like cookiecutter or dzil new (or yeoman), but the more I read, the more this looks like make without the dependency resolver

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Looks funky... but what problem does it solve?

</comment><comment><USER42> Seems like make?

</comment><comment><USER43> Just use docker.</comment>


Tell HN: I think I'm quitting my job today - <AUTHOR> So, I think I'm quitting my job today. I've always valued the discussions that take place here, so I thought I would solicit your input (though my mind is pretty much made up).
See, if the economy were in any other state, I wouldn't even give it a second thought. I'm pretty well-qualified for many jobs, so I think I could get another one if I needed to. But still, I have several friends who have been applying and interviewing everywhere and cannot even get a job. Yet, here I am quitting the relatively stable job I landed just 8 months ago.
I feel that it's just something I must do. I've grown very discontent (bordering on depression) since I've worked here. Though I graduated at the top of my class with Mechanical and Electrical degrees and a solid 2 1/2 years' industry experience, this company misrepresented my position pretty significantly, telling me all the cool fascinating things for which I'd be responsible. Instead, 8 months later, I'm not much more than a glorified tech support, making much less than I should be, and tolerating somewhat intolerable work conditions (like abiding by a lunch bell (yes, just like in high school)).
Anyway, the point of this solicitation is not to rant or bad-mouth an employer. Rather, it's simply to ask, am I off my rocker for quitting in these hard economic times? I've been working on building a web-based company for the past couple years. It's really close to taking off, but not quite paying the bills just yet. I also have a web development company to help fund the startup. Recently, a (really cool) friend who owns a bigger, more successful web development company, approached me about contracting their extra work out to me. As it turns out, they have enough extra work to keep me busy for at least a few months (probably much more), and I'd be making more than I make here. In addition, I've got a couple months worth of expenses already saved up as well.
What do you guys think? I think I'm ready to stop hating 5/7ths of my life, regardless of economic conditions. <comment><USER2> There is no "think". There is "do" and "do not".

Sounds like you've made your decision and you just want a push. And since you've asked here, instead of anywhere else, you know that we will push. And that's what you want. You are just a tiny bit insecure and want someone else to say it, but you've subconsciously guaranteed you'll get the push you want.

Ok then, I'll oblige.

DO IT! It sounds like you can afford it. Bad economic times are a good time to start. If you can survive through these times, you'll be positioned to explode when things take off. You don't have major financial obligations. You'll never regret quitting your job and taking a friggin chance. Take the chance. Embrace it. You only live life once.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are absolutely right. I think my main hang-up is the guilt I feel for quitting my job when so many of my friends cannot even get a job in the first place. I think maybe it's just simply unfounded.

And yes, everyone here is very good at pushing for risk and action over all else (myself included), and that is exactly why I posted here. Though, even if I had gotten the opposite reaction, I probably would have said you guys don't know what you're talking about, and then taken the plunge anyway ;-)

<comment><USER3> > the guilt I feel for quitting my job when so many of my friends cannot even > get a job in the first place.

So your quitting opens up a job for another guy to take. :)

<comment><USER4> Our company has a hiring freeze in place. If someone quits, then the office loses that job permanently. If the person is fired, then when the hiring freeze gets lifted, then we may replace them. Things might be different at your company. Ours is a Fortune 500 company.

<comment><USER3> I agree. Add in that his old job was not that enjoyable anyway.

<comment><USER5> My job is pretty depressing and very boring. They also have a hiring freeze in place. My job is very secure because I do things for the company that requires a skill that isn't easy to find.

Unfortunately however I have no college degree. I got lucky landing this job straight out of high school and even though I'm pushing 5 years of experience from this job I really doubt I could easily find another one outside of retail/fast food even if the market wasn't the way it was.

/sigh

<comment><USER6> Just out of curiosity, what is this skill?

I ask because I have a couple knacks that are hyper-rare in programmers, (In my experience) but I'm having a terrible time capitalizing on them.

<comment><USER7> Mind if I ask what your knacks are?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I spent two years working a job that got me so depressed by the end I couldn't even get out of bed to go to work. I mean clinically depressed, not just metaphorically. So as someone who has been there; quit. You may have to buy a lower grade of peanut butter for a couple months at Trader Joe's but your freedom and your happiness are priceless.

Sure, the economy isn't great but our society (I'm assuming you're American) has come up with this notion that if you don't have a job at some big company as your parachute you're somehow going end up living in a van down by the river. WRONG. I quit that terrible job and traveled the world, and let me tell you I'm still here in one piece and haven't had to look for used vans yet. Since traveling I've ended up in jobs I didn't like but found it much easier to quit those and move on when I've been unhappy; that was the freedom I learned from having that first bad job experience. Now I know I can leave an employment position and my life won't fall apart.

All that said, don't do anything stupid like quit with no money in the bank. You're still going to have to realistically pay bills and you may end up needing to take a job that's not so glorious after leaving this one to help you get from point A to point B. If you do, make the most of those experiences. Know they too are temporary and only there to help you get to your end goal. Set a timeframe so you know those temporary jobs will eventually come to an end. Stay focused on where you want to be and you will get there.

[edit] I'll also add, don't quit and leave your current company hanging. Give them the proper two weeks (minimum) notice. Try to leave without burning any bridges, regardless of how little you like your current job.

</comment><comment><USER9> Wait, you hate your day job, but you've already lined up both your next big idea and the means to fund it while it gets going? And now you're here asking for permission?

Seriously, dude or dudette, what more do you need? An engraved invitation to follow your heart from Cupid?

</comment><comment><USER10> Another perspective might be to quit mentally, but keep going in every day (so you can collect the paycheck, ins., etc). If you can allow yourself to get over the feeling you "have" to be there everyday, you will feel empowered. Don't let them get to you, you need to feel like you have the upper hand. So, let go of the fear and uncertainty of not having a job, embrace the fact that you can leave at any minute and you will feel much better. Once you know you can leave at any minute and the job doesn't define you, they no longer have control over you. In the meantime, go and look for another job or figure out what you want to do; when everything is lined up you can stop going to your job. Good luck

</comment><comment><USER11> What is the conventional advice given during a depression/recession?

Keep your head down, keep a stable job, keep that income coming in, you're better off than all those other poor sods on the street.

What is the conventional advice given during boom times?

Get a new house, a new car, a new TV, consume, consume, consume. Don't worry about debt, since you're always going to make more. Don't like your job? Quit it now and get a better one to your satisfaction.

There is no doubt that the current economic situation is affecting the relative ability for someone to acquire income. However, if you have your current job in your current situation say, two years ago during the boom, would you feel any different? I'd say you would feel less anxious about surviving, yet, you wouldn't be as driven to succeed in your new endeavor simply because at the back of your mind, there's that safety cushion of getting another job.

If you don't have any dependents and no sigificant debt, I think you would be off your rockers to stay where you are.

<comment><AUTHOR> No dependents, yes significant debt (student loans). But oh well, as everyone else seems to be in agreement with, you only live once!

<comment><USER12> Student loans can be deferred or stretched out for decades, plus the interest is deductible (for some folks). I wouldn't worry about them unless they're huge (100K+).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> My one recommendation would be to have a plan. Don't quit your job or start a startup just to do so - just because you feel like that's what people on HN do. Do it for a reason - an organic solution you've derived form a problem you see in your life is best. And have a plan, as to how you want to attack that solution and problem. While the plan will likely become obsolete in a week, it helps you iterate when you've already thought about where you're headed...

To answer your question directly though; no, there's nothing wrong with quitting your job.

</comment><comment><USER14> I quit my job with a baby on the way, 20 months ago. In that time, the economy has tanked, so even if I wanted to go back to work, I wouldn't be able to find one anywhere near my old salary.

Am I sorry? No. I'm still very, very happy I had the guts to take the plunge and do it. The fear of not having a steady paycheck is much worse than the reality. Now that I know that, even if I do get another job, it won't have the same psychological hold over me.

However...

I had worked a lot longer than you have, before I made that plunge. While I wish I had done it earlier, I think that 2.5 years is too early. At 2.5 years into your career, you're still an apprentice. You have a lot that corporate life can still teach you.

Here's what I did.

Every time I felt like you feel, I found another job. I found it before I quit my first job, the safe way. After about 2.5 years, almost like clockwork, I'd feel restless, and cranky with my current status, and go find another job. I learned a lot that way and made a lot of friends.

When you think the time is near for you to take the plunge, do what I did. Say to yourself, "this job that I'm starting today will be my last job. I will not allow myself to quit it to find another job. No matter how much I hate it, I will not trade it for a new job. I will only quit when I'm ready not to have a job at all."

That vow kept me in my last job for an extra year or longer. Time I would ordinarily have just hopped to a new job. Finally, I decided my time was now, and I gave my notice, without even having any concrete plans on what kind of business I was going to build. I just knew that I needed to be free.

To summarize, my advice is to job hop for a few years when you get unhappy, just like non-entrepreneurs to. There's a lot to learn that 2.5 years won't teach you.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree that there is certainly much more to learn. However, I feel that running my own few companies over the past 6 years (on the side) has taught me much more (and much more quickly) than employment has to teach. My recent elevator pitch contest wins and entrepreneur of the year award are also good motivation for me to go ahead and take the plunge. I think it's time for me to have as much confidence in myself as others seem to have.

<comment><USER14> OK. That's fine. I wasn't really thinking about learning business things. I was thinking about learning engineering things, since you said you were ME and EE. Or are you going to bail on all that knowledge and just do software? If not, how many trips to China has your company sent you on? None? Your next one will. It's truly amazing to go over there and learn what really motivated and organized people can accomplish (with $100 per week wages)

How many times have the products you designed shown up on store shelves in multiple countries? Every country has different regulations you have to conform to, and knowing what those are will come in handy for your own company. Stay with a big company a while to learn the hoops to jump through to get your compliance certifications in Japan, EU, Canada, Australia, etc.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah yes, very good point. Only been overseas a couple times. Though some of the designs I've worked on have probably ended up in the very car you're driving. I've been in the industry for about 6 years total now (on and off, so really maybe 3.5 years solid).

I don't think you can ever bail on all the knowledge you've acquired, but it can easily be applied to other areas outside of engineering.

It sounds like you definitely know your stuff and continue to enjoy the passion for engineering that I lost a while back. I'd much rather depend on products designed by someone with your enthusiasm than those designed by the majority of people I know who are just going through the motions. Good luck in your career!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Enjoy the short period of exhiliration. Then be prepared to ride the roller coaster of emotions. You will enjoy both highs and lows that top anything in your previous experience. Once you've done it you will learn there is no better job. Best of luck!

<comment><USER16> This is great advice.

Knowing it's going to be a rollercoaster really helps -- you don't get too caught up in the highs, and you know the lows are only temporary.

Sure you're still going to have them - but being conscious and aware makes it a lot easier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> There are so many variables in a decision like this that you've not covered. Just to name a few:

\- Do you have a family that relies on your paycheck? \- Do you have enough in savings and little enough in debt that you can survive given that the "extra work" could dry up? \- Are you focused enough to be your own boss? \- If you aren't successful and can't find a job, do you have a fall back when the money runs out, like living with your parent, a working spouse/partner, etc?

The thing is, no one but you can answer those questions, and no one else can assess the amount of risk you're personally willing to stomach.

I guess what I'm trying to say is coming here for advice seems like a poor stratagem. You should really be asking yourself and people who know you well, they'll give you much better feedback than an anonymous group.

<comment><AUTHOR> Just to clarify, I have already done a personal risk analysis. I have discussed this decision with my family, my friends, my business partners, and my mentor over the past week and a half. I have a few month's savings already, and I am well-qualified for many positions that are open in the area should I need to take one.

As I stated in the first line of the post, I've already made up my mind, and I was just soliciting additional feedback from a group of peers, whom I trust. I'm sure everyone else here would agree that getting feedback from as many sources as possible, is on the contrary, a very good "strategem" for any decision (btw, the word you're looking for is "strategy," a "stratagem" is a type of strategy used to deceive someone).

And finally, I see that you are new to this group. From experience I can tell you that this group is far from being anonymous. We are a very tight-nit, common-interest-bound group of thoughtful and contributing individuals.

<comment><USER18> "We are a very tight-nit, common-interest-bound group of thoughtful and contributing individuals"

your account is 4 days old - plus there's no visible email, name or any other sort of id in any account... So yes, I'd say you're pretty much anonymous (like most people here)....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> With only a couple months of expenses saved up, you're taking a big risk. It sounds like you could live a couple months off savings and a few months off contracting. I have no idea what the economy will be like in 6 months, but you will probably not have enough revenue from your web startup to fund yourself. You may from contracting - good developers always seem to be in demand, even in bad economic times - but the contracting market is hurting from the economy too.

OTOH, there're risks to staying in a dead-end job too, particularly to your sanity. It sounds pretty bad. And sanity is not something you should sacrifice for money.

Honestly, if I were in your position, I'd do it. But acknowledge the risk you're taking and take steps to mitigate it. Cut your expenses to a bare minimum and line up contracting jobs well before you need them. It really sucks looking for work when you're running out of money - you're in a much better bargaining position if you've got income and plenty of savings.

</comment><comment><USER20> You can quit, or you can tell your bosses that you are overqualified for the job and ask for a raise and promotion. Then you can quit. The latter can be seen as an experiment and a life lesson. If you are quitting anyway, you have nothing to lose there.

</comment><comment><USER21> Dude, quit your job and move to Thailand (or some other cheap place) while you work on your web businesses. The cost of living there is super cheap so your daily expenses will be low and your savings will last longer. Plus, you'll get a chance to explore the world. It's not nearly as hard as people think.

Good luck.

Here's a good article that discusses this idea: [http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2008/05/laid-off- one-t...](http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2008/05/laid-off-one-thing- you-absolutely-need.html)

<comment><USER22> I've read the original post, and this is something I've given serious thought to. Is there a good health insurance solution though?

<comment><USER21> Over there, health care in general is super cheap (compared to the USA), and there are plenty of good hospitals/dentists/etc. in Bangkok. I'd bet they're good and cheap in Phuket too. You could probably even pay cash for services like annual dental and vision checkups.

I've signed up with WorldNomads.com for general accident insurance. I've never gotten sick or hurt so I can't personally vouch for the claim process. However, they're recommended by Lonely Planet and a bunch of other notable travel sites. They're worth checking out.

Also you could check out the Lonely Planet message boards too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There will never be a good time to do anything. You will always be able to find at least one reason in favor or against making any decision.

No one person can tell you whats best for you. The only real advice I would give it to stop teetering and make a hard decision one way or another. Once you've done that, take a second to breathe; congratulate yourself on your decision...and then embrace it.

If you decide to keep your job, make the decision to make the absolute best of the situation, commit 100% to being the best you possibly can while you are there. Likewise, if you quit, go after your next opportunity with all the energy you have.

The bottom line is that you will never be happy if you are constantly second guessing the decisions you make in life. So instead, make the decision that you feel is best for you and don't look back.

Thoughts point us in the right direction, but only actions will get us to our destination.

</comment><comment><USER24> DO IT! I did exactly this after some soul-searching with my wife over xmas '08. We figured that with my energy, ambition, ideas and so forth I could make something good happen within a few months. Handed my notice in on 5th January. Left on the 12th. Happy as I have ever been on the 13th and stayed that way ever since :)

<comment><USER25> Have you made anything good happen? I ask because I am also contemplating the same move. I am wondering if the economic environment precludes it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I may sound like an utopian, but I think that being satisfied in what we do and how we accomplish it is the only goal to target, to be happy and satisfied. One should always seek for happiness through efforts, no matter how hard it may seem: I believe that _good_ ones will always give you back the same goodness you were able to spend, no matter how bad the context is.

I also know that not everyone likes to do its best, and many are simply looking for the "easiest" way, but this implies abiding to some kind of _lunch bell_ , as you described. But you're not this kind of person: it seems that you're still able to dream and tend towards something better.

So, good luck with your future projects and give good karma, you'll receive it back! :).

<comment><USER11> I think the kind of work that satisfies the deep parts of us ends up being the kind that looks harder and takes more effort.

Being mindful of the present, as you advise, is a good practice in my opinion. They clear up enough confusion to gain insight about oneself. Sometimes, those insight tells you to move on. I don't buy that it is the _only_ goal to target, and one should _always_ seek for happiness through efforts, as those beliefs becomes attachments and delusions over time. They're simply there because someone hasn't gained insight to themselves yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I don't think you should really let the state of the economy affect you that much one way or the other. As the owner of a fledgling company, you'll have a lot of flexibility to adapt to the market as needed. The people who are in trouble are more likely to be established businesses who have already built a lot of infrastructure designed to extract profit from revenue sources that are currently drying up. This leaves them unpleasantly stuck with the overhead for that infrastructure but not the expected profit. Unless you're running around looking for capital (which is probably expensive in terms of equity right now), I'd guess you'll be relatively unscathed by the economy.

</comment><comment><USER28> Quitting my day job and starting my own business was the best decision of my life.

It's a risky move in any economy. The potential downside is losing everything you own. If you find that motivating, rather than paralyzing, you're probably on the right path.

</comment><comment><USER29> Here's a mental exercise: 1) Decide what is the worst that could happen. 2) Assume that it happens. 3) Is it really so bad? 4) How could you recover?

Do it for both leaving and staying. I was surprised to learn that the worst thing that could happen to me in my job was that I continue to have success, further chaining me to a job for which I have no passion.

I have a different situation than you (married with a young child), but answering those questions has encouraged me to make a 2-year plan to get out. Two years because that is when my child will start going to school full-time and my wife will presumably go back to work, providing us with affordable health insurance.

<comment><AUTHOR> You read the 4 Hour Work Week, didn't you? :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I left my job in the 90's with less 'life line' then you appear to have. I've owned my own company (in partnership with others) ever since. With the things you've done on the side you appear to be on the ball and ready for it. I was lucky to have partners who compensated for my weaknesses. It sounds like you even have that base sort of covered with the people you know in the industry.

You mention guilt about others not finding jobs in this economy. Think about it this way: If you start your own thing maybe you could end up hiring people into a company that doesn't have a lunch bell (do u guys play dodge ball after lunch on the playground - that would be cool). In other words as a company owner you can shape the world more than you can as an employee (potentially).

If you're a methodical planning type you might want to slow down and do some paper and pencil introspection. I used a book (<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883487242?tag=openlibr-20>) back in the day (circa 1992) to plan my transition from a day job to a self employed person. This book has questionnaires that are aimed at determining whether you are the type of person that can survive on your own. I flunked them all and went ahead and quit my job anyway (just because I wanted to) but the book did remove my illusions that it would be easy for me to make it on my own.

Anyway - good luck and get yourself happy.

Joe

</comment><comment><USER31> Go for it! If you're depressed, that's reason enough to seek change. If you have a web business that's "close to taking off," ensure that it happens by taking the plunge. Make it take off!

</comment><comment><USER32> I think you will be making the right decision.

A year ago, I was working for a web design firm working with the Drupal content management system. I wasn't the greatest at it, but I was in the position to learn and grow my skillset and not have people upset at me for getting things in late or asking questions... rather they were excited because I was learning and saw the potential I saw in myself. Needless to say, I wasn't working there too much longer, for personal reasons. However, I missed the job like no other. I had finally found a job I could truly love.

After that, with the economy the way it has been, I bounced from a tree care company (working with a friend, not so terrible) to a fast food restaurant (horrible, never again) and then to a call center providing tech support for Blackberry phones to people who under other circumstances should seriously find a twelve step program for their addiction to those damned devices. Bouncing around, I thought I would never get the opportunity I once had. I missed it terribly and pined for it regularly.

And then I found it. After two weeks working part time as a contractor, I was asked to leave my job because they (my new employer) knew they could provide me with enough work and I was doing better than they expected as far as quality of work and timeliness of delivery were concerned. I didn't give it a second thought. I hate not working with the web. I am totally and thoroughly enamored by this technology and know that if I could stay in this career field I will be happy.

The point is... do what you love. Don't hesitate, don't second guess, just do it. You won't regret it. :)

</comment><comment><USER33> I was faced with the exact same scenario as you about a month and a half ago. At that time the economy was bad but the massive layoffs hadn't really started in earnest.

I had been toying with the idea of just leaving cold turkey but the logical/risk adverse side of me kept saying it wasn't a good idea since I had a great paying job at a solid company with excellent benefits.

But as the days wore on with me feeling like I was literally withering my life away I decided that it was time for me to crap or get off the toilet. So I turned in my notice on the same day Obama was inaugurated (figured it was a nice metaphor for my life change).

I had a very similar situation as you, with a friend who had a lot of contract work he could farm to me. This work pretty much paid all the expenses (I know PG doesn't encourage even doing this, but this was about as risk adverse as I could get comfortably). The first day of not going into a cube was magnificent. The second day, some shock set in, but now a month and a half later and I will say it's been a very good decision. Work and opportunities are just piling in and I have a number of other business projects in the pipe.

Now I work really hard but I take time out to do what I want, when I want. I go for a run after checking some email, I meet friends for long lunches, then I crank on code til 1am, and while I am doing more 'work' I feel like my life is much much more fulfilling.

I would say you're actually playing it more safe than many who have quit their job and you're in a great position to be successful and lead the life you want.

Hope this rambling helped in some way, and whatever you decide to do I hope you find success and fulfillment.

Cheers

</comment><comment><USER34> It sounds to me like leaving this job could be a good move. That said, I am a little worried by the tone of your post. You say that you "think" you are quitting your job today and that you've been borderline depressed. I don't think it is wise to go in and quit your job on a day when you are uncertain and still haven't made a final decision. Posting on this forum was a good move, and you've gotten a lot of high quality encouragement from other commenters which could help you make a decision. If you decide to quit your job, then go ahead, make that decision, and then sit on it for a few days. I doubt that it makes a big difference whether you quit your job today or next week. Once you're sure that you're not making a rash decision in the heat of the moment, go ahead and quit. You can use the time between now and the time you quit to plan your exit. I recommend giving a couple of weeks notice that you're leaving and winding down your job in an orderly fashion without burning bridges.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry, to clarify, the "think" part of the headline was actually due to the contingency that this friend send me the contract in time for me to read it, approve, and quit before the end of the day. It had nothing to do with uncertainty.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Definitely get out of there. However, I'd suggest considering keeping the current job while you look for the next one. If you are looking for a "standard/real" job, being currently employed seems to be viewed as a plus. And it may take some pressure off, money/benefits wise, so that you don't end up feeling the need to take whatever ends up being available/offered.

This approach may still make you feel somewhat better. Once you know you are getting out of the current situation, its annoyance becomes a temporary inconvenience. Still a hassle, but not one you are going to endure indefinitely.

On the other hand, a job does take up a lot of time and energy, particularly traditional business hours. And -- as I know from personal experience -- a bad situation can become so soul sucking that it becomes paralyzing.

</comment><comment><USER36> I was on the exact same situation last year (except, my job was great but it just me that always want to do my own startup). Therefore, i can understand what you meant by "depression" on working in something that you feel is not for you.

Anyway, my experience is, just do it (especially you have few months savings)!! Sure, day-by-day is very unexpected and you never know if you will ever have enough money to survive. But, oh man...life become much more exciting and all of a sudden the proverb "do what you'll love and you'll never work another day" become very true. It's become very fun and enjoyable experience even though times are tougher and you work much harder.

A bit of tips, just be prepared for the emotional roller-coaster.

</comment><comment><USER37> You've already quit your job :)

The best advice in this economy is to get your head down and stick in your job till things pick up again.

But, you know, were not here because we do what were told or are supposed to do. :) so get outta there and go make some real money (belief!).

</comment><comment><USER38> If it is the discontent with the current job that's driving you to quit the job, it may be better to try and get another job where you think you will get a better deal and probably like the work more than you do in the current company.

You can always start a startup in any environment. You may not be able to get the job you want if the market is not good.

Save enough to be able to live at least for an year or two without the regular paychecks from a salary, before thinking of quitting your current job.

If the work you plan to do after quitting the job is really interesting to you, you could always do it on the side while doing another job.

</comment><comment><USER39> I think that quitting your job for going freelance (doing something you're passionate about) is actually a safer choice. Dont let your fear lead you to making poor decisions (like say, working for a client you dont like, because its never worth the money). Who knows, maybe your current job would lay people off and you would not be as well prepared as you seem to be right now. Take the chance, you will not regret it. And during the time you'll work for your friend, im sure you'll find plenty of other opportunities because people will know that you're free for some contracts.

Best luck.

</comment><comment><USER40> Yeah I would totally quit and start your own company! Think of it this way since a lot of superfluous startups are dying, you'll have less competition. Plus, life is too short working for douchebags.

</comment><comment><USER41> It won't and it shouldn't matter much what we say.

We can't load you with courage and send you off, although if you're still hesitating a bit we might be able to scare you enough to make you postpone your plans for a while.

Only you know what you can take now. Maybe you're ready after six months, maybe you're ready now.

Just make sure it's your own calling, and not a choice of ours or of anyone who (you think) will expect something from you. Don't live someone else's life. Live yours instead and find out that it's you who's granted to get to decide everything.

</comment><comment><USER42> I did something similar in June of last year (left a job to begin contracting/consulting), and I didn't even have much in the way of extra expenses saved up. There have been a few times as the economy dipped that I wondered if I was crazy, but so far work has continued to be busy, here. YMMV.

So, are you crazy to quit? I have no idea, but I wish you the best! For myself, I'm sure I made the right choice, so take that for what it's worth, and have fun!

</comment><comment><USER43> I lived on my own @ 17, quit my job I had from age 14 to 18 and been on my own ever since. Just do it, you know what you should do better than anyone else.

</comment><comment><USER44> I find that many people in your situation make this all or nothing decision when it doesn't have to be. Why not start looking for a new job today and when you actually find one, then quit. No need to put so much pressure on yourself. If you can't find a job within a month or two, well then your question is answered, don't quit. If you can find a better job, then get out of there.

</comment><comment><USER45> There is ALWAYS work for bright, hard-working people. You sound like you've thought things through and even prepared a bit - do it!

Rivers always reach the sea...

Cheers

</comment><comment><USER46> Do it. I did last Friday and am not looking back.

</comment><comment><USER47> I say quit and try it out. You're young (from what I can tell)

I told my boss I was quitting about a month ago during our year-end reviews. I'm leaving in July and trying something entirely new, in a new city to boot.

On the down side, I haven't found a job yet but I haven't really sped up my search quite yet so I'm not worried. :)

I say, go for it! The worst thing you can do is keep thinking about it.

</comment><comment><USER48> do it. once you've reached that stage with a job, there's no coming back. I recently went through the same situation where i decided to quit my corporate job to pursue my start-up (www.probuddy.com) full time. the decision will certainly put some pressure on you (financially and socially), but this will be productive pressure.

</comment><comment><USER49> A definite Yes. I was laid off from a tech support job, so I began my consulting career. This was 1990. I not only survived the dot.com bust, I thrived. Following your heart while satisfying a customer base is a great recipe for success.

I also think it is better not having regrets about the changes I could have made...

</comment><comment><USER50> Life is too short to be unhappy, especially with what you do during most of your waking day. Bail out, find some thing better, and at worst enjoy some time off. I'm also assuming you've already spoken with your hiring manager to ensure that they can't fix the situtation?

<comment><AUTHOR> I have been reprimanded for such atrocities as my lunch hour not matching exactly with the bell, and for talking casually to a co-worker. They have been running their company this way for a long time and have had many many people quit for that exact reason. They have not changed anything yet, I have no reason to believe they would if I talk to them, nor do I have much desire to stay if they do.

<comment><USER51> I've worked 16hr days during the summer in Alaskan canneries and there aren't very many jobs that are as time pressured to get things done as that. Every minute of down time is potentially lost money. That said, I never saw anyone being reprimanded for not getting back right on the whistle (we did have one - I was the person blowing it for a while) or for talking casually with a co- worker. We had to screw around every once in a while just to stay sane. I would quit for these reasons alone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> If you know you are leaving then perhaps try to renegotiate?

Perhaps doing the job part-time would allow you to have time to do meaningful work on your own while not giving 100% of your stable income.

Perhaps there is an option that will leave you and the company happy.

</comment><comment><USER53> We have a lunch bell at work. Actually, it's a kind of chuck-wagon like gong. Though, because it's announcing the arrival of the catered lunch, I'm guessing the circumstances are somewhat different than yours. :-)

</comment><comment><USER54> If it's a good pay, perhaps you could offer your employer to do contract jobs mostly working from home. This way you get an easier transition money-wise. It all depends on many factors about your current job.

</comment><comment><USER55> If you are miserable, it's really that simple. Just do it. Everybody is unique, and it's your fault your friends cannot find a job. It will be your fault if you keep being miserable. You hold all the cards.

</comment><comment><USER56> > As it turns out, they have enough extra work to > keep me busy for at least > a few months (probably > much more), and I'd be making more than I make > here.

It seems you're pretty safe financially. Just saying.

</comment><comment><USER57> You'll be happier unemployed and penniless, than staying where you are and wondering what could have been I think. Having said that, I'm in a similar position and I'm not quitting anytime soon.

<comment><AUTHOR> Really? Why not? I'm assuming from the username, you're not much of a risk taker, but if you know you'll be happier, why not pursue it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> I have no idea if your startup will succeed, but quitting the lunch bell is definitely the right decision. The worst that could happen is you fail and find work for some other company.

</comment><comment><USER59> Quit!

I'm quitting my job Monday next week. I don't know what I'm doing next or how I'll support my family. Those answers will come - but if I keep coming to this job everyday it will kill me.

<comment><USER60> If you don't have food to eat, that will also kill you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> 1) You've got a business that already has some money flow; 2) You've got a safety net to bring in extra cash (the friend that can contract out to you);

What are you waiting for?

</comment><comment><USER62> Go for it, man, and since we're quoting things:

"Well, the funny thing about regret is: it's better to regret something you have done, than to regret something you haven't."

</comment><comment><USER63> If you love what you're doing, the "economic conditions" won't matter, and it turns out that ramen tastes a lot better when you're happy.

</comment><comment><USER64> hey man,

i also quit around a month ago and have now been thinking why i did'nt do it earlier. bad economy or good economy, i don't think it should make much of a difference.

actually i think this is a good time to start, less competition and also, if we can make something which is making good enough money, when economy becomes better. people will be running after few good startups around.

<comment><USER27> Regarding competition, I'd expect less from established players in the market, but as unemployment rises, shouldn't the number of startups go up as well?

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> This is the best time to start. Marketing is easier then ever, servers are cheap, opportunities are still here. Go for it!

</comment><comment><USER66> Its not worth staying somewhere you hate. You only live once. I say quit the job and work on the web thing.

</comment><comment><USER67> Sometimes you need to do the irrational to keep your sanity. Only you know if it's worth it.

</comment><comment><USER68> Contact your friend and ask him if his offer is still valid and then take the opportunity.

</comment><comment><USER69> done deal, your in a good spot to make the move. Take the first step and increase in work hours, hacking, and networking by 2x and you will be in a great position in 3-4 months. good luck!

</comment><comment><USER70> If you've got a decent cash cushion, then go for it!

(Just don't blame me later ;-)

</comment><comment><USER71> If you quit, you won't get unemployment if things go bad. Sounds like you already have more income lined up though. No time like the present to start something. I see more opportunity now than ever before.

</comment><comment><USER72> Go for it, may be I will follow you!

</comment><comment><USER73> Do it.

</comment><comment><USER74> Go for it!

</comment><comment><USER75> Honestly? Unless you have your exit pretty well hammered down, you should try to save your job, even if that means having uncomfortable conversations or going over your boss's head. You say that your friends have "enough extra work to keep [you] busy". Try to get something in writing before jumping ship. "I'll send work your way" from a well-intended friend is not a guarantee.

The economy really sucks right now. Unless you have a guarantee of income (e.g. letter of employment) you should do whatever you can to save your job. Talk to your boss about the issue, and if he doesn't make things better, talk to your boss's boss. Insecure middle managers love to pull shit like bait-and- switch, but somewhere up the food chain, there is someone who would not want this to happen to a talented person (either that, or you're at a shitbag company) and you just have to find him. Now is the time to work aggressively to repair the situation-- the worst that can happen is that you get fired, but in that case you get severance and unemployment, as opposed to the $0.00 you get if you quit.

Regarding depression, it's probably not just your job. I love what I do and I'm bordering on clinical depression right now; the fact that my career could easily go to hell (something statistically impossible two years ago) and that society might collapse, although neither is likely, doesn't lead to happy thoughts.

<comment><AUTHOR> Oh, I definitely am not quitting before having something in writing! They're suppose to get it to me by lunch today.

<comment><USER76> Another alternative is to ask for a unpaid leave of absence. That will give them time to reconsider and you time to think and _do_.

<comment><USER75> If he does this, there's a chance of him getting fired. It doesn't send a good signal.

<comment><USER76> He is taking a risk of getting fired already. Depending on whether the boss likes surprises and/or if you want to not blow up your bridges, asking for a leave of absence is a subtle way of giving notice before you give two weeks notice e.g. after they come back with - 'Sorry, we can't do it' - 'Thank you for taking the time. I've thought about this a long time. I'd like to tender my resignation'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> If I were you I'd look at the math. If your friend can off load enough web development work on you for you to get by at least for the next few months, enough time for this web-based company you have been working on to ramp up, then do it. If not, don't, not in this economy. Only do it if you are sure you can fly on your own, and won't have to be out looking for another job soon.

</comment><comment><USER78> I would build up more savings - two months of expenses isn't much.

</comment><comment><USER79> How'd it Go?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll do an update post ;-) Some unexpected events took place, but all in all, it went well.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Lean Specs - Simple project specifications and estimates - <AUTHOR> http://www.leanspecs.com/

<comment><USER3> Sorry but what about this is "Show HN"? You're not _showing_ anything!

This seems to be a fairly common thing on HN - have half an idea, do a bit of webdesign and create a email-submission form.

<comment><AUTHOR> We're showing a product we're about to launch in a couple of weeks and are looking for feedback and to hear what the HN crowd thinks about this kind of service.

<comment><USER4> There needs to be _something_ for us to give feedback _on_.

I hope that your launch goes well.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you :)

We hoped to get some feedback from people using current tools before we launch, and we're getting some already, so that's great.

<comment><USER5> So now that you obliviously recieved your own spec from some HN commenters.. (I wanted at least screenshots man!)

What would be an example of current tools people are using for drafting tech specs beyond a word processor? What software is similar to yours / competition / etc?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is an ok home page.

Your idea could be very good or very bad, depending on how your service works. But right now, there is no way to tell because it shows nothing at all.

You basically asked for some feedback on the content of some <title> tags.

<comment><AUTHOR> We want feedback from people who are building specifications with current tools, to help us make some decisions on the final featureset of the product. We wish we could show screenshots, but the interface currently is functionality only without design :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Like the title, but was disappointed.

Coming up with a spec format that clients will like has always been a fairly easy problem to solve - as well the spec is usually worked on once the project has been awarded, so isn't even part of the sales process. As well it's hard to improve the writing + sharing experience of Word + Email or Google Docs + Sharing.

The attention to estimating is nice, and will save freelancers or less experienced teams time, but is only really useful to teams that do contract and custom work.

I was hoping for more of a focus on the collaborative work that comes out of writing specs: more around the commenting/editing/workflow. When working on a spec (either internal or external) change requests or modifications are important, as are interdependencies and change tracking.

Your product title made me think "GitHub for Specs" and it doesn't seam you're going that way. Shame.

<comment><USER8> Joseph - thanks a lot for the feedback. We're at the stage that we're looking for feedback from other individuals and see how they are experiencing the pain we've experienced in the past.

We intend on reading every single feedback left on our form and here and discuss how we can better serve our potential users.

By the way - I loved the "github for specs" :)

<comment><USER7> No problem. Good luck with the new service.

Oh yeah - thinking back to consulting work - something that let me "make a beautiful spec and share it" would have felt like a one-time-use service. Subscribe for a month, make a spec, take the learnings and add it to my own Word template.

The problem I mentioned (collaborative spec maintenance) is something that I know I'd pay for as a subscription - specifically because it helps me manage something for the ongoing health of our products. It becomes more core.

The only downside is that a solution more aligned to infrastructure costs (as I have suggested) can't command as high a price premium as something that is aligned to revenue (i.e. help me rationalize/explain higher estimates to customers).

<comment><USER8> We're not planning on stopping at "make a beautiful spec and share it" - <USER2> are building a tool that ease the pain of writing and collaborating on specs - with your clients and/or team.

Your feedback however is very valuable - since the product is still in its infancy (heck we haven't launched yet) and knowing we love to iterate a lot and based on real world findings - this is this kind of feedback that will help us shape the product.

So again - thanks a lot!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Something to help format and present specifications to a client would likely be something I would be interested in trying.

However basing estimates on "industry averages" is probably about as bad an idea as letting your manager estimate your work for you.

As Joel Spolsky has said in at least one article[1]: _Only the programmer who is going to do the work can figure out what steps they will need to take to implement that feature. And only the programmer can estimate how long each one will take._

Industry averages might be usable at some level as a sanity check, but honestly most software that is more complex than very basic CRUD is not going to conform to any "averages" for purposes of estimating.

[1] <http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000245.html>

</comment><comment><USER10> Nothing to see here but I am curious to see what this team has come up with. As a UX Architect/Product Manager it's a tough game staying on top of client requests, clarifying them and then handing them off for development. I think the challenge is having something that meets the needs of everyone but is flexible enough to adjust for unforeseen work, new requirements and shifting priorities.

<comment><USER8> Matt, Thanks a lot for the feedback - we know there's a huge pain for everyone involved in the specification stage.

I personally wrote so many spec documents and price proposals in my life and I can tell you that it was the part I enjoyed the least in the project. (Althought extremely crucial for its success).

I hope we can solve this pain and make this a better experience for everyone involved.

<comment><USER10> For sure, when you launch the beta let me know and I'll give you my honest feedback. I might even be able to use it on a project but will have to take a look at the product first.

<comment><USER8> Great! We'll make sure to post a url on hacker news once we go live. Alternatively if you want to be notified - make sure to leave your email on <http://www.leanspecs.com>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Like the project idea, but like others have said, there's nothing much to show for right now.

I understand what you're trying to do -- outsourcing requirements for your MVP before invest more time -- but seriously, call a spade a spade... (This is probably more Ask HN than Show HN.)

</comment><comment><USER12> Bummer. I've been thinking of a strategy to reform this exact process for my business, but there's nothing I can do here (yet). ETA?

<comment><USER8> rglove - we hope we'll be able to launch this product within 3-4 weeks top. Leave your email and feedback and we'll make sure to send you an email once we're live.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Ironic? That your website touting"lean" has a MVP that is too minimal?

</comment><comment><USER14> I really like the social media share buttons. Are these custom made?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, custom buttons who fetch the counters through the various (unofficial) APIs for each service. We'll be releasing a set of those on Github soon

<comment><USER15> They're also a bit broken: <http://i.imgur.com/D916w.png>

I have a recent Firefox with what seems like bigger fonts than you were expecting.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for catching that - we'll try to see if we can address that issue.</comment></comment></comment></comment>