An earth-cooled beer dispenser - <AUTHOR> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&u=http://www.ecool.dk/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.ecool.dk/%26biw%3D1680%26bih%3D929 <comment><USER2> Interesting. At our family lake house, we've been putting beverages in a net with a rope and dropping it to the bottom off the dock. They always come up cold :)

<comment><USER3> Haha I imagine this works really well in most places. If I tried this in Florida I think I'd pull up a pile of green sludge with my beer.

<comment><USER4> As long as it doesn't eat through the can, I don't see a problem ;).

<comment><USER5> Because your beverage touches the outside of the can on the way to your mouth?

<comment><USER6> Just rinse it off first. Most cooler water is pretty gross anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This link created an interesting bug in my FF: [https://i.imgur.com/1PZ01Ua.png](https://i.imgur.com/1PZ01Ua.png)

<comment><USER8> The solution is to disable https everywhere (if you have it enabled) and to make sure that you are accessing translate.google.com insecurely.

For what it's worth.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I love this invention. Imagine put one in your back yard and the next time you are holding a party, you can take out your beer like a magic.

But I think compared with the CO2 that comes out from your beer, the CO2 release reduced by saving electricity isn't that much...

<comment><USER10> The CO2 in the beer is not of fossil origin, so it's not a relevant comparison.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'd be worried about fools trying to steal my beer - can't see a locking mechanism on that picture. And no, I'm not joking - some retards once stole a whole fridge worth of beer from a friend's terrace.

<comment><USER12> Probably not such a problem in Denmark...

<comment><USER13> Where there are no thieves?

<comment><USER10> No, everyone has plenty of beer in Denmark! ;-P

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Given that I don't choose a bigger fridge specifically to store beer in, and I tend to have, say, 4-8 bottles of beer in the fridge at any one time, and I wouldn't store anything else in the fridge to replace it, and a fridge becomes less efficient the emptier it gets ... is this _really_ a good idea?

<comment><USER3> Maybe it's not built for your home where you have electricity and a fridge. Maybe it's built for your lakeside getaway where you go camping with the family every summer.

<comment><USER14> I suppose I can but dream :-) Seriously, I didn't mean to sound so negative in that original comment, I just really wanted an excuse to install this in my back garden!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It might be a translation issue, but "well insulated" seems like exactly what you _don 't_ want for this sort of cooler. Maybe they mean the top is well insulated while the bottom is not.

<comment><USER15> Keep in mind its Google's translation, what they probably meant is there will be no dirt on your beer when you pull it out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> That looks cool. But I live in Southern New Mexico.

The soil temperature here gets very hot and isn't near beer cold even 3 feet down. Perhaps I could still use one of these though. As an eco-friendly coffee warmer. Fill it with canned starbucks and off we go!

</comment><comment><USER17> See also: cellar.

</comment><comment><USER18> That's pretty awesome. I wonder how well it works in the summer.

<comment><USER19> Depending on location, ground temperature tends to stabilize once you get a few feet down. Here in the northeast United States, it's about 60 F year-round once you get 15 feet below the surface.

I worked for a company that was making direct-exchange geothermal heat pumps for homes - think about a big refrigerator whose coils are buried in the soil.

<comment><USER20> 15 feet sounds pretty deep to dig to install something like this. Any idea what the temperature is like 2-4 feet?

<comment><USER21> That's going to vary a lot more by location, and 2-4 feet puts you at much higher risk for your beers freezing (although if you fully load this with beer, you'll have some beers at 2-4 feet anyway). Where I live, for instance, beers will probably freeze 2 feet below ground in winter. But my well is down below 15 feet and is always liquid.

<comment><USER17> I don't think this is supposed to be used at winter, and during summers I don't think most people need to worry about beers freezing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> $400?? That's insane.

<comment><USER23> Where do you see that? I only see 1895 KR which google claims to be $285 worth of Swedish Krona.

Still expensive. Google might also be giving me the wrong currency.

<comment><USER24> Danish KR, not Swedish. About 350 USD.

<comment><USER22> I did a CAD conversion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> if this interests you, you should checkout a Zeer Pot (aka Pot in Pot) refrigerator. No electricity, but does require water and can get down to 43F. [http://practicalaction.org/zeerpots](http://practicalaction.org/zeerpots)

<comment><USER6> Another type of non-electrical refrigeration is using an icebox in conjunction with an Icyball ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icyball](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icyball))

You have to 'charge' the Icyball periodically with a bucket of water and a fire, but they can go well below freezing.

I've never seen a modern incarnation of the idea, even though with some training it could probably be manufactured locally in countries with poor access to electricity. Maybe that is worth looking into... Here is a homemade version that might be the basis for a modern version: [http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html](http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> What's the e-commerce platform / shopping cart / whatever behind this?

<comment><USER27> It is [https://snipcart.com](https://snipcart.com)

We are seeing a lot of activity on the website since it's on HN ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> It's showing that it's only being used with cans, instead of bottles.

</comment><comment><USER29> This makes me proud to be Danish.

<comment><USER30> Indeed. Now if only I had a garden.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> that is seriously cool

</comment><comment><USER32> Pffft! Just drink it warm. Cold beer is for poofters who don't really like the taste of beer.

</comment><comment><USER33> I guess this is awesome if you really like drinking 55-60F beer.

Otherwise, this is luddite technology designed to appeal to ecotards.

<comment><USER34> Exactly. The ground is usually 58F. I remember reading about this in a thermal home book. (If you effectively bury 3/4 of your house, you only ever have to warm it to 70F from 58F.)

It's actually somewhat funny. Did they think there were ice cubes under the grass when the designed this?

<comment><USER10> AFAIK, the ground temperature will be the average air temperature over the year. It's certainly not 58F everywhere, because in Siberia there's permafrost, and in Denmark might likely be less than 58F, too.

<comment><USER17> Based on quick search, the average air temperature in Denmark is 8-9°C(46-48F)[1]. I suspect that you don't find that cold ground temperatures though. I found some local statistics about ground temperature[2], which shows that even around here the invention would barely work in the warmest months. And I'm living nearly thousand miles northwards from Denmark, from the same source the average air temperature here is -2°C.

I'm just giving this as more nordic perspective, seeing that most HNers probably are from US/warmer climate.

[1] [http://www.dmi.dk/en/klima/klimaet-frem-til-i- dag/danmark/te...](http://www.dmi.dk/en/klima/klimaet-frem-til-i- dag/danmark/temperatur/)

[2] [http://i.imgur.com/LrUEPP7.png](http://i.imgur.com/LrUEPP7.png) ground temperature at various depths

<comment><USER10> _And I 'm living nearly thousand miles northwards from Denmark_

That's far north... Tromsø? Kirkenes?

<comment><USER17> > Kirkenes?

Close but wrong side of the border :) I'm currently (stuck) in Ivalo[1], family home is in Utsjoki

[1] [https://firstname.lastname@example.com,27...](https://firstname.lastname@example.com,27.55,7z)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Don't be mad at Apple, be mad at the patent office . . . - <AUTHOR>

A lot of discussion on HN in the last few days has made it seem like Apple is in the wrong for trying to defend their patents.
This, however, is exactly what patents are for.
Take a look at this list of items that they are attempting to defend:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-20-patents-apple-hopes-will-crush-its-smartphone-competition-2010-3
Everything in there is an important innovation, for which Apple has enjoyed a lead time but the purpose of a patent is that no other company may use the innovation without permission and/or licensing fees.
All that said, I am suprised that there is so much negativity towards Apple, even from PG, rather than at the patent office which we all know ain't working . . .
Every large-cap business is respinsible to their shareholders to defend their IP - Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Amazon, etc, etc all employee mills full of attorneys to manage and defend their patents, why should Apple be held to a different standard? <comment><USER2> Let me just answer that with one link: <http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html>

Questions?

Tbh, i hope apple gets sued to hell by companies whose patents they use. Their is a huge mountain of patents at companies like Nokia & Palm :)

<comment><AUTHOR> You prove my point - Nokia is ALREADY engaged in patent suits against apple!

[http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/22/nokia-sues-apple-says- iph...](http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/22/nokia-sues-apple-says-iphone- infringes-ten-patents/)

Again, it's not Apple with the problem, it's the patent system.

All this energy directed at Apple being some exception and "evil" for defending their patents, when everybody else in the field does the same damn thing, is misdirected.</comment></comment>


Novid: Covid-19 contact tracing app on app stores today - <AUTHOR> https://novid.org <comment><USER2> Interesting idea for an app</comment>


SMBC on Healthcare for Small Business Owners - <AUTHOR> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare <comment><USER2> The state of US health insurance and care has become a competitive disadvantage that discourages innovation and entrepreneurship. That's very bad policy for any country, but particularly for one that prides itself on The American Dream, innovation, and being your own boss. Every entrepreneur, freelancer, and small business owner I know has a ridiculous story of costs, insurance debacles, and often care too. You'll also now hear absurd stories from people with group employer provided plans. That should be a national embarrassment.

Every other developed country in the world has figured this out, and at much lower cost.

</comment><comment><USER3> Insurance premium increases this year have seriously made me consider whether it's worth it to continue running co-founder with my startup, or whether I should just jump back into "normal" employment. I'd love to continue growing my company to the point where we're hiring enough people to qualify for group insurance or where a PEO makes sense, but we're just not there yet and we want to continue to bootstrap it.

I am probably more familiar with insurance than most, having done detailed research in the arena and knowing pros in the industry. My premiums this year increased by _only_ 40%, on top of the 65% from last year's increase; a pleasant surprise. I have a 25 sheet Excel doc that models out my family's expected healthcare costs for the year to compare individual plans. If I were to stay with my current plan (which I won't) it would cost me well over $32,000 in total next year. I've spent many hours trying to figure out what the best financial path forward is, and I still have some huge question marks. (Ever tried to get coverage information for particular CPT codes from an insurer? Ha, good luck!)

Unfortunately, a lot of the cost comes down to the demographics of the individual market, and I don't know much of what can be done about that. I don't fault the actuaries at the insurance cos for doing their job, and it's true that despite the crazy premiums and poor coverage the insurance cos are still bleeding money in the individual markets. Having also lived in countries with single-payer systems I don't believe that is the solution either. But something's got to give or entrepreneurs just won't be able to afford being entrepreneurs anymore. (And the situation will just get worse for non- entrepreneurs who don't have access to group coverage).

<comment><USER4> How is the demographics so bad for self-employed people? I would assume the group is roughly the same as those who work for other business, with some bias towards being more practical.

Anyway the solution is the same reason my grandmother (a retired teacher) has very cheap home insurance: her union had their own and they were not allowed to make a profit.

What the US need is an association of small independent business owners, who can do the same.

<comment><USER3> Self-employed people are in the same demographic as other individuals without any access to group insurance, such as those working lower-end, lower-paying jobs. As a matter of sheer statistics, a larger proportion of this population ends up sicker and incurs greater medical expenses.

Something similar to what your grandmother had or other unions is a PEO, or professional employer organization. It's a collection of small businesses (usually) that band together to get access to services otherwise only available to larger groups. It's a little interesting because technically you become an employee of the PEO as well as your own company, and there are certainly costs associated with it, but it's in the same vein as union dues, for example. Just not as clear cut and not required.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> One suggestion: there are several fantastic medical cost sharing plans that end up being exponentially cheaper than traditional insurance. We use Samaritan Ministries and have had nothing but great experiences. Full coverage for most needs, no network restrictions, etc, all for $500/month for our family of four. Samaritan is a religious org, but there are others that are not, [https://www.libertyhealthshare.org](https://www.libertyhealthshare.org) being the most notable.

<comment><USER6> Your link is at least quasi-religious.

[https://www.libertyhealthshare.org/do-i- qualify](https://www.libertyhealthshare.org/do-i-qualify)

 _Our members:...Worship regularly with others_

<comment><USER5> Great catch! It looks like Liberty has been taken over by a different organization. It used to be a simple "respect everyone, regardless of backgrounds" group...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> What good is all the capital in the world for investing in businesses when people have to play it safe because there's no social safety net.

<comment><USER8> I partially agree, but I think is has less to do with social safety nets and more to do with our atrocious healthcare regulations. I can go to my dentist or a car mechanic and know how much something is going to cost me. Good luck getting a quote from a doctor's office or medical insurance provider. And don't mind that auxiliary bill that arrives 6 months later. Wait, what appointment was that?

The fact is heathcare costs are outrageous, medical insurance rates are just as bad, and our current regulations are clearly not making it better. I don't know whether the ACA has slowed the progression or made it worse (everyone seems to disagree). But it needs to be fixed. That could include heavy price controls, "free-market" insurance, "single-payer" insurance, or whatever else. That would require both parties in Congress to work together, though, and not on pet projects.

<comment><USER9> I think it's funny how you say "both parties" like there isn't exactly one side that is completely and utterly responsible for the lack of motion on that front.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Insurance is a red herring. The true problem are the runaway costs. Costs which are protected by government regulations. So we do need a government intervention of sorts, but the correct answer is to reduce regulations and cost protections--not just make taxpayers fund the entire mess.</comment>


Why Developers are Drawn to Weekend Code-a-thons - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/building_web_apps_really_fast.php

<comment><USER2> If you have to ask why, you're probably not a hacker.</comment>


SOHO: Comet heading into the sun - <AUTHOR> http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/LATEST/current_c3.mpg

<comment><AUTHOR> A little more backstory: <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397623,00.asp></comment>


Heroku (YC W08) Public Beta: Deployment Stacks - <AUTHOR> http://blog.heroku.com/archives/2010/3/5/public_beta_deployment_stacks/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+heroku+%28Heroku+News%29

<comment><USER2> Great to be using software that was forked, spindled, and mutilated from the upstream developers only a year ago, instead of three!

Ubuntu's policy of doing the same shit faster and on a fixed cycle helps, but it's still the same fundamentally broken release model. A continuous rolling release with namespaces and slots in the package model is the only way to go.

</comment><comment><USER3> Heroku is a YC company. Crunchbase suggests W08. Can someone change the title?</comment>


Fixing photosynthesis by engineering it to recycle a toxic mistake - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/01/re-engineering-photosynthesis-gives-plants-a-40-growth-boost/ <comment><AUTHOR> This is frankly an amazing advance. But it does make me worried about how easy other, less beneficial, bio engineering might be.</comment>


Ask HN: How is knowledge stored within your company? - <AUTHOR>

I am setting up a new entity and want to make sure that things we learn do not get lost; that we have a central place where "all" knowledge is stored and available to anyone within the company.
What do you use to make sure that knowledge does not get lost and that it is accessible by anyone?
If you use a software or SaaS:
- Which one?
- What makes it great?
- What do you miss? <comment><USER2> Storing knowledge is a bit tricky. For a starter you have to consider the types of knowledge. Most commonly you talk about tacit[0] and explicit[1] knowledge.

Tacit knowledge is hard to communicate by writing or even verbally. Rather it is mostly transferred via learning by doing. In a software scenario tacit knowledge would probably be the code base. The style, naming conventions and what not of the code is likely to be relatively unique and it is hard to communicate via a document, rather the employees has to get a feel for the code, use and modify it. It takes time and you probably should have some kind of coaching set up for new employees coming in, especially if your company is specialized or uses something unusual.

You should also keep in mind that certain employees may possess unique knowledge and considering the relatively high employee turnover you should make sure that your processes don't fall apart if an employee leaves the company. Don't let people have their own pet projects that no one else knows anything about, especially if those projects are mission critical.

Explicit knowledge is easier to document and you can use stuff like Wikis or Confluence. Explicit knowledge is basically everything you can easily communicate via documents or verbally. So guidelines, processes and such.

If you got proprietary information or personal information of EU citizens you may want to consider a locally hosted solution, especially if you are located outside USA (avoid Google etc). I've used Wikis in the past but also had solutions like word documents with processes.

It does depend on your needs, simple word documents with processes may be enough. I know huge companies like Shell has had moderate success with a wiki solution[2]. I should have slides from a knowledge manager Shell presentation somewhere, will have a look around.

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_knowledge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_knowledge)

[1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explicit_knowledge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explicit_knowledge)

[2]: [http://www.ikmagazine.com/xq/asp/txtSearch.Intranet/exactphr...](http://www.ikmagazine.com/xq/asp/txtSearch.Intranet/exactphrase.1/sid.0/articleid.0A6EF1DD-1D6A-4CD0-94EA- DC872A5A708E/qx/display.htm) (Old but may be relevant).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for this. I am definitely looking at how to store explicit knowledge. Tacit knowledge in my mind is a lot about your organizations culture and that needs to be lived.

Luckily being based in Switzerland hosted solutions are not a problem but that is a different story altogether anyways.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Airbnb Engineering currently uses Hackpad ([https://hackpad.com](https://hackpad.com)) for this purpose, and it's working very well. We previously used Google wikis and GitHub wikis, but the poor editing interface was enough of a barrier that few people contributed wiki content, preferring instead to send emails or just explain in person. Hackpad changed the game by making content creation dead simple. In addition, it has good search and organization capabilities.

In addition to canonical, long-lasting wiki content, we also use Hackpad for RFCs to the team (e.g. to gather opinions on the design of a new system or API) and checklists for ops events (e.g. migrating an RDS database to PIOPS). Hackpad's real-time collaborative nature works especially well for these use cases.

Whatever you choose, I submit to you that the most important thing is making it extremely easy to contribute content to that central knowledge repository. The ability to organize and format content nicely doesn't mean much if it's cumbersome to add new content in the first place.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your reply, Hackpad does look very promising.

How do you make sure that documents get found and stuff does not get duplicated? Is there a central Place where you store links to important docs?

<comment><USER3> Hackpad's search functionality is pretty good at ensuring that people find what they need. We do also maintain a Table of Contents pad, which serves as a central place that links to all our canonical content; this helps people find what they need by browsing. This ToC pad is pinned to the top of the Engineering Wiki collection.

One guiding principle we've followed is to favor long wiki articles so that it's easy to see a list of everything you can access from that one Table of Contents. Each pad is then well-organized so that you can search within the article to find what you need. We used to have lots of articles that each addressed just one thing, but that made it hard to locate the right article when you needed it.

Sometimes content gets duplicated, but we just clean that up when we notice it. So far it has not been a big deal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Dokuwiki: [https://www.dokuwiki.org/dokuwiki](https://www.dokuwiki.org/dokuwiki)

Very install to install and set up and the "wiki pages" are saved as plain text files, making it very easy to backup/copy/replicate/whatever. In addition, the syntax is pretty easy to grasp and even non-technical users can quickly figure it out.

</comment><comment><USER5> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki_software#Enterprise_wikis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki_software#Enterprise_wikis)

What I've seen across companies, it's usually some kind of wiki engine used for internal knowledge sharing.

The tool should support simple integration of media content(drag&drop), rich text format editor, real time document editing with text/video/audio communication support, document version control, workflow, elastic search.

</comment><comment><USER6> Hand written notebooks and scattered word and spreadsheet documents. We are a computationally-intensive genomics lab in a top-ranked university.

</comment><comment><USER7> Confluence works quite well for us.

<comment><USER8> Same here. Medium-sized company(250+), we used plow for quite some time, but switched to Confluence recently. With Jira as task/bug-tracker works splendidly, and the interface seems to be approachable for everybody.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Previously I have seen Wikis being used for that and one company I worked at successfully used Confluence but I am not sure if that is the right approach.

Hearing about other's best practices would be great.

</comment><comment><USER9> Being a new entity, shouldn't you be worried about your product instead?

<comment><USER10> I get what you're saying but it's dangerous to just say "oh I'm going to just 'focus on product' and forget about everything else."

There are things one needs to take into account when setting up a business that does not involve the romanticized lone coder in his office at 3 am.</comment></comment>


India's Misguided War on Cash - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-22/india-s-misguided-war-on-cash <comment><USER2> > Anyone with outstanding notes must either deposit them in a bank -- > potentially incurring a tax -- or exchange them for replacements in strictly > limited sums.

Incurring a tax is the entire point of replacing the old currency. A large portion of the black untaxed money is untraceable in the form of cash, so getting them into banks and taxed is the first step.

This article is overly negative about some negative things that are part of the expected outcome, that even the people who are proponents of the change admit. Of course there are obvious drawbacks to invalidating most of a nation's currency at once, the point is how this process benefits the country.

A lot of poorer Indians barter or use smaller cash denominations anyways, and the government isn't trying to crack down on that; comparing India to Nigeria in that sense doesn't matter. And reducing the economy of the entire country temporarily is very intentional- if a big part of your country's business dealings is with illicit cash, cracking down on it will of course reduce the market.

The idea is to sacrifice some money in order to reduce corruption and increase the trust in government and business systems. If that is successful, then this move is very beneficial for India in the long run.

<comment><USER3> I don't see how charging tax on cash is the solution to this problem of people not paying their taxes. They are punishing the person who lost at musical chairs or am I missing something?

How does this prevent it from happening again with the new notes? Tax system is still broken.

<comment><USER2> Let's say you are an honest citizen. You earn $1000, of which all of it is properly taxed. You get $100 in cash and give it to a corrupt official in order to do something. Another person is a corrupt official/businessman; under this official, there are maybe 100 people, and each person gives this official $100 in order to get something done. This income is in the form of cash, and is untaxed.

If you force everyone to put their money into a bank, then anyone who pays their taxes already has their $900 in assets accounted for and don't need to pay more taxes. If you have $10,000 in cash you need to deposit into a bank and no documentation for it... you'll have a bad time.

There is no musical chairs, since the money flows upwards. If you are honest, you should not get hit by any additional taxes.

This is the reason why currently most of India supports the move of discontinuing the old currency and replacing it. Unless you take in a large amount over your taxed salary as untaxed bribes, it doesn't affect the amount of money you have.

<comment><USER4> But what I don't see are measures to ensure that people will continue to deposit money in the banks / pay their taxes. While I appreciate the move to force the turnover of black money now, what stops someone from starting to accumulate black money again, lets say a few months from now?

I hope there are measures being taken in that account.

<comment><USER5> Yes. There are. There will be a cap on the maximum transaction that can be done using cash. So cash accumulation gets reduced. And hoarding large amounts of cash in physical notes will be dissuaded.

<comment><USER4> > There will be a cap on the maximum transaction that can be done using cash.

Thanks, I've been hearing rumors about this too [1]. Would be a welcome step if and when the govt. implements it.

[1]: [http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/demo...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/policy/demonetisation- govt-mulls-limits-on-cash-withdrawals-and-transactions-for-both-individuals- and-companies/articleshow/55484949.cms)

<comment> wav-part That could have been done gradually without banning notes. Introducing higher denomination make even more less sense.

<comment><USER4> > That could have been done gradually without banning notes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but banning notes is to bring about a few changes like forcing people to declare black money and fighting the counterfeiting industry (just to name a few). Like you pointed out, the cash transaction limit could have been brought into force without banning the notes, but by combining both, isn't the cap more effective in deterring accumulation of black money in the future?

> Introducing higher denomination make even more less sense.

I don't quite understand this. Higher denomination or not, the cap is on the transaction amount, so how are they related?

<comment> wav-part 1\. _As per a recent estimate, only 6% of black money is kept in the form of cash_ [1].

2\. 33 Death count as of Nov 18 [2].

3\. New notes are just as easy to counterfiet as old ones and now with 2x yield [3][4].

You can make your own conclusions.

PS: If you are aware of any stats/study governmental or independent, please let me know.

[1] [http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and- nation...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/view- narendra-modi-takes-a-great-leap-backwards-mao-would- approve/articleshow/55522309.cms)

[2] [http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/demo...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/demonetisation-suicides-heart-attacks-and-even-a-murder-among-33-deaths- since-decision-4378135/)

[3] [http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/rs-2-000-notes- foun...](http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/rs-2-000-notes-found-on- militants-killed-in-encounter-in-kashmir-s-bandipora/story- ggbNgM5HclIFPj5jXANVyN.html)

[4] [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/first- fake...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/first-fake- rs-2000-note-surfaces-in-gujarat/articleshow/55557803.cms)

<comment><USER4> Thanks. So if I'm not wrong, what you're saying is even with demonetization and a transaction cap, they will barely make a dent in the state of black money in India. Am I correct?

From what I've read, I would agree with that.

<comment> wav-part Remove "and a transaction cap" part, you are correct.

Going cashless will solve terrorism and counterfiet problem. World is going cashless and naturally India would have gone too without the huge cost of banning notes.

However I have different issue with this, allow me to quote

[http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and- nation...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/view- narendra-modi-takes-a-great-leap-backwards-mao-would- approve/articleshow/55522309.cms)

 _Corruption and black money are a consequence of big government, of one set of individuals having discretionary powers over the actions of others. If Modi was serious about tackling black money, he 'd bring about institutional changes that would take us towards the minimum government he had promised in his 2014 campaign. Instead, government keeps getting bigger, controlling more and more of our lives. More government = more corruption._

Also Center/Modi wants to make prosecuting corrupt public officials more difficult and bribe-giving a criminal offence. Considering giving bribe is unavoidable fact-of-life and cost of doing business in India, Center wants to make CEOs responsible [1] [2].

And I say this as someone who voted for Modi.

[1] [http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and- nation...](http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and- nation/private-sector-bribery-under-proposed-anti-corruption-law- parliamentary-committee/articleshow/53672937.cms)

[2] [http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/brin...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/bring- private-firms-under-anti-graft-law-rajya-sabha-panel-2972049/)

<comment><USER6> The size of the government is not the deciding factor.

Example is Denmark with one of the largest governments in the world but still among the countries with lowest corruption.

<comment> wav-part > The size of the government is not the deciding factor.

For India it is. Its that simple.

What do you suggest Indian Government should do to reduce corruption while still holding same power if not increase it ? Laws & executions have failed consistently. It wont be different this time.

Corruption is a social problem with huge momentum. It took a while for it to creep in and it will take a while to creep out (like all social problems).

Reducing unneccessry regulations and red tapes are only quick fixs we have.

<comment><USER6> I am not sure I agree completely but you do have a point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "It's like the PM is cleaning a pond to kill the crocodiles, forgetting that crocodiles can survive even on land. Big crocodiles have survived. Small fish have died." [1]

The immediate reaction of the common man on de-monetization of higher currency notes (followed by replacement with newer ones) was euphoric. A popular thought process was that people can tolerate inconvenience for a few days because it'll invalidate the "black money" [2] and thus rein in inflation, property prices and corruption to some extent. However, the moment this was announced, people have been brazenly finding loop-holes to convert their currency notes through unofficial means. Example : back-dated receipts for expensive items (gold, cars, property), fake accounts, hiring poor folks for conversion via official channels, bulk purchase of coupons / cards for essential items that are permitted to accept older notes, etc..

[1] [http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/demo...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/demonetisation-black-money-scam-sitaram-yechury-winter-session-poor- suffer-rich-enjoy-4379505/)

[2] Untaxed money, undeclared income, ill-gotten money via bribery, fraud etc..

<comment><USER8> > However, the moment this was announced, people have been brazenly finding > loop-holes to convert their currency notes through unofficial means. Example > : back-dated receipts for expensive items (gold, cars, property), fake > accounts, hiring poor folks for conversion via official channels, bulk > purchase of coupons / cards for essential items that are permitted to accept > older notes, etc..

Plugging loopholes is the only enduringly useful thing that would come out of this exercise. Although, yes, the ones you mentioned have been marginally successful, the administration is doing a decent job at addressing them. For eg, people exchanging cash need to have their nails marked with indelible ink to foil crowdsourced attempts at laundering money, people with abnormally high deposits, with respect to their I-T returns, will need to explain their source.

I remain ambivalent about the approach, or its immediate benefits. However, what _will_ prove effective isn't necessarily an excellent tax collection for the year, but making a big leap towards a transparent economy. That, however, remains to be seen if it's only a pipe dream.

<comment><USER7> The modus operandi (of loopholes) is nothing new, it's second nature to many businessmen. I wonder why there weren't enough checks in place when the plan was announced.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am based out of India and I find this article misguided. Corruption is a very big problem in India , and lot of bribe is paid in cash. For eg: If you want to buy a house which is sold for 20 million INR , value of same property is 5 million on papers (to evade house tax etc. ) and rest of the money is paid in cash or through some black money . Real estate stocks started sinking down 5 days straight and are expected to sink further after this move. Yes it causes inconvenience to the people but as a tax payer and contributor to the economy I dont mind small inconvenience for greater good.

<comment><USER10> What is stopping the corrupt people to ask for bribe in 2000 Rs notes now?

<comment><USER11> Exactly.

However this move isn't without immediate benefits.

1\. Forces all participants in shadow economy to declare cash assets. So it's a data point from which to baseline total cash asset census.

2\. Data collected about individuals with most cash declared will allow for revenue services to target those individuals first.

3\. The introduction of serious risk for hoarding cash in the future. The government followed through with this threat so it's a precedent.

BTW, I'm a foreigner and I am traveling to India in a week's time and I hope the impact on tourists is all but dissipated by now!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The article is using unrelated statistics (countries by % of GDP in cash) and connecting this to why the experiment may fail. This is humbug.

The biggest threat looks to be the methods of laundering that are cropping up -- I'm starting to hear of instances where offline-chits and money transfer agents are accepting old currency without any markdown. So it looks like laundering hasn't received as large a blow as anticipated, and hence the experiment may very well fail by the Dec 30 deadline.

One positive thing to note is that a majority of the citizens are tired of the parallel economy and are openly supporting the government's moves. Hence it should give the Modi government the cover and incentive to add-in more stringent checks and regulations to take on the laundering. This is probably the only hope for any success in this experiment.

BTW, whether this experiment succeeds or fails, it's a net positive in the long run as it has shown: 1) that a government can take steps towards stopping the parallel economy, and 2) do so with the people's support.

<comment><USER13> Alternatives methods for corruption will always exist. If you ban one method another will be used shortly after and those most capable of switching are usually the people with biggest illegal funds. Bribes are illegal and yet they are common, then why do you think that another law will help? A better treatment would be to better apply the current law but this too will fail if the culture of corruption is not diminished. Changes on this scale are not achieved in a fortnight but I agree that the Indian government is showing resolve to work on the problem.

<comment><USER12> You are in error about my post -- I recommended no additional law. My post was regarding the experiment and it's stated purpose of reducing the parallel (black) economy.

The evidence I'm seeing suggests that the experiment is not yet yielding the expected results. Hence my suggestion of certain changes which could help it along.

Full-blown economics discussion, and what could spur the economy, is a large enough topic that I would not tackle it via a HN post.

<comment><USER13> And I am saying that no changes (law or not) can be effective in fighting corruption as long as the incentives for it are present (broken institutions, culture of accepting bribes, mainly cash economy). Also in the business of government changes are usually implemented through laws. Hence my usage of the term.

Edit: The evidence I provided was that current legal framework is explicit enough in its treatment of corruption and yet corruption is still present which suggests that the problem is not in the rules.

Also, I don't like how you equate parallel economy to black economy. Those are different terms in Economics and the majority of economic transactions outside of regulations and laws are not bribes but a part of the informal sector (grey economy) [1]. And India is considered one of the countries with biggest grey sector in the world [2].

[1] - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_sector)

[2] - [http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-second-highest-rate- shadow-...](http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-second-highest-rate-shadow- businesses-world-study-1590949)

<comment><USER12> Thanks you for your considered opinion on corruption, which is not something I commented upon above.

The 'parallel economy' is a non-colored word for the non-white economy, which is is transactions that the government does not know about, usually referred to as the 'black economy'. If you do not like the use of the term, you may perhaps launch a petition to change the popular usage?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Not quite sure what the author is trying to get at, any change affecting the entire population of India will of course be 'immensely disruptive'

There's no war on cash, theres a refresh on the notes, its an attack on black money, its time to pay the dues if you've been hoarding illegal revenues. India isn't getting rid of cash, the comparisons to Nigeria are pointless.

<comment><USER14> The author's twitter [[https://twitter.com/eiaine](https://twitter.com/eiaine)] seems to suggest a very strong bias towards Bitcoin-like cryptocurrencies.

This is a poor way to promote her biases towards technology.

<comment><USER15> Please address points made in the article rather than trying to ascribe ulterior motives to the author by googling them.

This seems like a variant of the very distasteful pro-BJP meme of "if you're against demonetisation, you must be corrupt and anti-national". It shuts down productive discussion.

<comment><USER16> The article itself is phrased pretty poorly if it's intending to make an honest viewpoint. I'm not sure the author realizes that prefacing your opinion with 'may' and 'might' doesn't absolve journalists of a responsibility to cite sources.

 _> Those who want to fight corruption by policing cash may have the causality backwards._

<comment><USER15> Fair enough but I still don't think ad hominem arguments should be encouraged.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> This war on cash is disturbing especially from governments and financial institutions which have zero transparency.

UBS is calling for the removal of the 100 bill in Australia[1] and the same is happening in other countries.

Thankfully no matter if they manage the kill all cash. Cryptocurrency is in a way digital cash.

These institutions don't realize that their power grab is pushing people more and more into currency which they have zero control over.

[1] [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/financial- services/...](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/financial-services/ubs- analysts-call-for-australia-to-dump-100-notes/news- story/de5a6d38a536c9a29042d6863a23bb30)

<comment><USER17> The trouble (and advantage when seen as a commodity) with Cryptocurrencies is that they can't be "created out of thin air". Yes I know FRB is seen very skeptically, but there are deep issues with the distribution of these, that are similar to gold. A country that does not have spread-out reserves of gold, can't have a gold-backed currency.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> What nobody is talking about here, is that this step also aims to hit hard on the fake currency [0] industry in neighboring countries, specially Pakistan and Nepal. The new dimension and design of the note is to make the printing machines in these illegal mints obsolete. It's no surprise that the 2 month long 'agitation' in Kashmir came to a screeching halt this week. This step hits funding of terrorism in India hard, at least temporarily.

[0] [http://thediplomat.com/2016/11/indias-fight-against-fake- cur...](http://thediplomat.com/2016/11/indias-fight-against-fake-currency/)

<comment><USER17> That's true. However, what's also not mentioned is that there isn't much preventing the counterfeiting of the current notes. See,

[http://greatgameindia.com/de-la-rue-blacklisted-company- paki...](http://greatgameindia.com/de-la-rue-blacklisted-company-pakistani- links-supply-rs-10-plastic-notes-india/)

[http://greatgameindia.com/secret-world-indian-currency- print...](http://greatgameindia.com/secret-world-indian-currency-printers-de- la-rue/)

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FLhDdjQ...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FLhDdjQ68bwJ:www.thehindu.com/news/national/demonetisation- of-rupee-notes-no-time-to-add-new-security-features-in-notes-says- official/article9335159.ece+&cd=1&hl=kn&ct=clnk)

(Take conspiracies with a hint of salt; the cited links seem rather solid).

<comment><USER18> Thanks. BTW, what conspiracy are you talking about?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Author need to do more research

This process already started 2 years back

Scheme for poor to open Bank accounts with zero balance 2 times intimation given to Black money holders to pay fine and declare assets

Reason for currency demonetization

1\. Tackle Fake currency circulated by Pakistan and then keep on printing anfd fund terrorist 1.1 After Currency Ban Many Terrorist activities stopped for ex. in Kashmir as no money to fund terrorist

2\. Black money - Just check news how munch Black Money recovered

3\. To encourage all to have Bank account

4\. To increase IncomeTax return percentage

5\. to fight against corruption

6.to make economy and currency strong

There is approximate more than 80% currency in terms of 500 and 1000 notes, its a very big change and there will be minor problems

We all Indians are going to benefit from this decision and we are with our PM and supports his strong decision

<comment> wav-part Has government published any stat ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I appreciate the efforts of the author, but I'm a bit saddened to see the level of inaccuracy. The india story aside, the comparison points (The Nigeria narrative) break the article further, because they are not true.

"Nigerians have abandoned cash..." \</comment><comment> Cash is King in Nigeria. At least 70% of consumer transactions are still in cash. The Central Bank issued a cashless policy some years back, encouraging an explosion in mobile wallets, alternate formal financial institutions, etc, but they have struggled. Cash is still king.

"...because they have so little trust in government-issued currency." \</comment><comment>---- Yes, the currency is weak. Against USD, against GBP, EUR, etc. But this has nothing to do with the everyday man's decision to stuff his mattress with cash vs bank with a formal institutions and have digital currency.

In the same vein, the chart in the article, that shows currency as percentage of GDP... This has nothing to do with the relative volume of cash transactions. It's important to differentiate cash vs currency.

"Instead of using banks, they tend to transact in mobile airtime minutes." \</comment><comment>---- This has been attempted once, but i don't know anyone in Nigeria that accepts airtime minutes over cash. Not to be funny, but I've been asking all day, in case there is some movement I might have missed.

Some rural villages even create their own credit instruments, enforced by local deities. ———— From the cited source, the paper focused on "a limited number of local communities of the Igbo of southeastern Nigeria". We are talking about a few hundred people, that turned their local 'church' (oracle/deity) into a lender, sourcing funds from the large wealth they have received from donations over time. And yes, they give out these loans In CASH.

<comment><USER21> Thank you! I am also Nigerian and seeing these inaccuracies was extremely irritating

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Unless the government cleans up its act, people will keep trying to store their wealth in other mediums and will avoid paying taxes. I question the premise that all untaxed money is evil based on the past performance of any Central/State/City/Municipal government in India. The nature of the Indian bureaucracy is such that it induces massive waste of tax payers' money at every stage of Government. For a tax payer from a game theoretic perspective, there is a rational basis for hoarding untaxed assets since to get things done in the bureaucracy, people need to bribe officials in cash or kind anyway. I wonder how people here feel about this thread after observing two weeks of the war against black money. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12902817](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12902817)

<comment><USER17> Considering that India's state is essentially a rent-seeking colonial state, I don't believe it has much legitimacy.

Then again, considering the large number of Govt. employees suckling at its teat, it's likely never going to go away. The local-minima is far too comfortable for those that matter.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Some stats on Income tax payers from India :

"Data shows only 1% of population pays income tax, over 5000 pay more than 1 crore ($145K USD)"

Only "six individuals fell in the high-end earning bracket of Rs 50-100 crore (7-14 Million USD) of salary income."

Wow ! Just 6 individuals. India's got NO shortage of millionaires & billionaires. The abysmal income tax collection clearly indicates a gaping problem with rules & their implementation.

\- Source : [http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news- india/data...](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/data- shows-only-1-of-population-pays-income-tax-over-5000-pay-more- than-1-crore-2779065/)

<comment><USER23> Judging from experience from other countries, people don't become billionaires by earning income (but rather by growing capital).

I think it's unfair that income is the primary base for tax, not capital, but that's life.

<comment><USER24> Honest question: isn't the growth of capital also an income? And if it is, it should get taxed, no?

<comment><USER25> Growth of capital is not an income, because it is subject to uncertainties in valuation and depreciation.

Income is usually measured in a set amount of currency, and is generally perfectly liquid, while capital can sometimes only be valued if there's a buyer.

So no, it is not also an income. This is one of the most common misconceptions here on HN (I often see wealth and income used interchangeably)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> This article could have been a more researched. Currently the arguments seem to be more superficial than based on ground realities in India. The comparison with Nigeria also doesn't seem to be correct.

For a theoretical perspective on this, please see Kenneth Rogoff's theory on this in the "Curse of Cash"[1]

While there might have been implementation challenges, the Indian government did not a do a "cancellation" of the high denomination notes, as claimed in the article. It is at best a "currency swap" at a large scale. Whatever money is forced to come out from being stashed away or un-accounted for, will be replaced by new valid currency of 500/1000 Rs notes.

Agreed, a withdrawal or cancellation suddenly will undermine the currency. But, not in this case. On the other hand, even road side vegetable vendors and shops have started using online payment gateway machines in this period.

In the long-term, the shadow or parallel economy is going to be pushed and integrated with more mainstream and benefit everyone.

That's not the case now: an average middle class tax paying citizen cannot reliably invest in a real-estate (especially plots and independent houses) as half of the money is transacted in black. This is a vicious circle and pushes the prices of luxury goods, real estate etc., northwards.

[1] [http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/11/17/kenneth-rogoff- in...](http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2016/11/17/kenneth-rogoff-indias- currency-exchange-and-the-curse-of-cash/)

<comment><USER27> > That's not the case now: an average middle class tax paying citizen cannot > reliably invest in a real-estate (especially plots and independent houses) > as half of the money is transacted in black. This is a vicious circle and > pushes the prices of luxury goods, real estate etc., northwards.

I don't know if I am correct but hear me out. I think these prices went up because people with hidden money were willing to invest more in comparison to someone with modest amount of honest income. Now when the gap between rich and poor has been narrowed down, prices has to come down to so that there can be more potential buyers which was not earlier possible as hoarders of black money were also investing their hidden money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> India is not getting rid of cash transactions. India is achieving two objectives with this move. Getting rid of unaccounted money and fake currency in circulation.

People can deposit as much money they have into their accounts if the cash was legally obtained. They can transact as much as they want in card/check transactions. Only constraints are in place for withdrawing cash in large amounts. Sure, there are long queues at banks and causes inconvenience but Rs.25000 cash limit per week is a lot for a _regular_ family.

Mostly people who have cash and who can't prove the source (black money) are choked as they can't deposit the money and that cash becomes worthless soon.

Banks with tons of NPAs will have more deposits and they can decrease the interest rates, lend more and spur growth in the economy.

Artificially inflated real-estate prices will come down as there is reduced black money in circulation. So a regular family will be able to afford purchase of land/house. Before this, for example, if someone is selling a property they would want more than 60% of property value in cash so the seller can avoid paying taxes on the 60% amount. No regular person will be able to pay 60% in cash, so they can't afford buying real-estate.

Overall, I think it's a good move.

<comment><USER17> > Artificially inflated real-estate prices will come down as there is reduced > black money in circulation. So a regular family will be able to afford > purchase of land/house. Before this, for example, if someone is selling a > property they would want more than 60% of property value in cash so the > seller can avoid paying taxes on the 60% amount. No regular person will be > able to pay 60% in cash, so they can't afford buying real-estate.

You're being naive. Giving bureaucracies unhindered power to create a magical wonderland has never worked, much less so in a anarchic society like India (it's also deeply against personal freedoms).

If you study history, everyone and their mother was egging on Indira Gandhi at the outset of the Emergency, using very similar arguments (Indian Express uses them now in nostalgia, but that's a different affair). What did it lead to ? The License Raj that's what.

There is nothing stopping people from switching to BTC or other crypto- currencies (XAU and BTC can be exchanged pseudo-anonymously).

<comment> wav-part Looks like noone is noticing government is in progress to make prosecuting public officials more difficult and bribe-giving a criminal offence [1][2].

[1] [http://www.prsindia.org/billtrack/the-prevention-of- corrupti...](http://www.prsindia.org/billtrack/the-prevention-of-corruption- amendment-bill-2013-2865/)

[2] [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-servants- may-g...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-servants-may-get- shield-from-prosecution-agencies-will-need-approval-to- probe/articleshow/55356435.cms)

<comment><USER17> This is a terrible move, considering how abusive Govt. officials tend to be; bribe giving often stems from helplessness rather than for illegitimate gain.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> My main take away from my economics degree was that every human created system is gameable. You need to have actors willing to participate in the system otherwise they will find a way to evade it. You cannot change a culture of corruption with a simple monetary trick (I speak as someone living in a country with relatively high corruption).

</comment><comment> happy-go-lucky This column is a fine example of false financial reporting. The author has less than superficial knowledge of India and the country's recent demonetization of banknotes of certain denominations.

Some news agencies in an attempt to reduce costs resort to reducing original news-gathering, do not fact-check articles before publication, churn out such inaccurate stories, and wash their hands of them with their usual disclaimers.

> _This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the editorial board > or Bloomberg LP and its owners._

</comment><comment><USER29> What is Indian Government doing with all the money that has already been off shored into Swiss bank accounts? It feels like the richest have already figure out a way. I remember reading an article at some point which noted that India has the highest number of accounts in Swiss banks. Demonetization wouldn't help if you already figured out how to send money to offshore accounts. Can somebody please clarify?

</comment><comment><USER29> From the article: "Norway and Sweden, for example, make all tax returns publicly available. It's harder to enjoy your illegal gains when your neighbors can easily check your lifestyle against your finances."

Is the article advocating neighbors to check on each other by snooping on tax returns and other stuff? feels misguided.

</comment><comment><USER30> The editors at Bloomberg should do their job (edit)!

Read this FT article instead:

[https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/11/21/2180031/the-curse- of-...](https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/11/21/2180031/the-curse-of-indian- cash-scrapping/)

</comment><comment> wav-part Also note Prevention of Corruption Amendement Act which requires prior sanction to prosecute serving public officials and makes giving a bribe a specific offence [1][2]. This will probably pass in coming weeks.

[1] [http://www.prsindia.org/billtrack/the-prevention-of- corrupti...](http://www.prsindia.org/billtrack/the-prevention-of-corruption- amendment-bill-2013-2865/)

[2] [http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-servants- may-g...](http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Govt-servants-may-get- shield-from-prosecution-agencies-will-need-approval-to- probe/articleshow/55356435.cms)

<comment> wav-part Since I cannot edit my parent comment...

The bill is in Rajya Sabha (Upper House). It will likely take longer. But still it has support from Center.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Cash helps keep banks in check because people can take their money out of the banking system. If cash is eliminated banks are the only option and we should be prepared for a Kafkaesque trampling of the little guy. No amount of regulation ever ended corruption. Corruption can only be ended by providing people with a good standard of living and access to quality education.

<comment><USER17> > access to quality education

Indeed.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/11/06/the- problem-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/11/06/the-problem-with- the-english-language-in-india/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> The same technology which allows banks and governments to cut cash out of money will allow cryptocurrency to cut government out of money.

</comment><comment><USER33> It's not a war on "cash". If it were, govt would not be announcing new notes for 2000, 1000 and 500 INR denominations.

Cash and black money are overlapping circles. Govt wants to attack only one kind of hoarder (illicit ones) while trying not to inconvenience the other kind (people out of banking system because of poverty/illiteracy). Hence, this tightrope-walk.

</comment><comment><USER34> I have a very pessimistic hypothesis that this event will trigger a recession and that India has effectively committed economic suicide.

My reasoning behind this derives from the question, why doesn't this happen in developed economies? Or, in other words, why do people in developed economies / less corrupt countries prefer official institutions over cash transactions?

From a first principles perspective, I suspect that the answer is the services associated with these institutions and channels.

When I make a business transaction anywhere within the developed world, I am exchanging money for the promise of goods and services - creating a form of contract which binds me and the entity I am transacting with. This contract is enforceable (at varying cost) through the court system, which offers a form of insurance in case things go wrong i.e. one side or the other reneges upon their promise. It is therefore rational to participate within that system for that reason alone - it's very hard (or at least harder) for someone to disappear with your money without some consequences associated with it.

Participation within the system also grants access to additional services and benefits from civic services to relatively low transactions costs. Further, there is an active system which punishes deflection. Therefore all of these factors combined with social shibboleths serve to prevent deflection.

India has none of this. The court system isn't functional, civic services are non-existent, and there is no punishment for deflection. Therefore, there is no rational reason why an actor within this system would transact via the official channels - it increases costs and provides no additional benefits in return.

From this perspective, I believe that the "black" or parallel economy actually serves like a decentralized gross settlement system. People create contracts with the strength of their social ties in mind and they transact accordingly. When these people demonetized 80% of the tender in circulation, [1] they actually disrupted this settlement system and wiped out the central mechanism through which most business transactions are done. The reason why I think this is the case is because it is actually highly irrational to hoard cash - especially in an economy that suffers from a high amount of inflation. Surely anyone with even a tiny bit of prudence would invest / consume their ill gotten gains?

If my hypothesis is correct, then this war on cash will a) never achieve its goals, b) disrupt supply chains, c) suppress consumer activity, and d) create other unpredictable economic repercussions. This may be equal to institutional failure to perform settlements [2] within a developed economy - the velocity of money has sharply dropped leading to an economic crisis.

I don't know what comes next, but it's likely to go down in history as a Bad Idea in a year full of Bad Ideas.

[1] [http://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-modi-corruption- idUS...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-modi-corruption- idUSKBN13804P?il=0)

[2] Essentially the idea is that if one bank fails to settle payments within the system, then it could lead to a failure cascade due to how strongly all banks are tied together within a modern economy. [http://www.econ.tcu.edu/quinn/crisis/Deleveraging/Bank%20Fai...](http://www.econ.tcu.edu/quinn/crisis/Deleveraging/Bank%20Failures%20Systemic%20Riskpdf.pdf)

<comment><USER35> Why not put your money where your mouth is and short nifty options ? I think the formal economy will benefit and bought some indian etf's.

People in developed countries also use cash to avoid some taxes. But most of the money in the west moves among big players who are more interested in avoiding employee theft than taxes. Their effective tax rate is usually below 10% anyway.

This will hurt small business in india, but allow chains and corporations to flourish. Previously small business had a competitive advantage because of cash.

<comment><USER34> You're assuming that I haven't already done that. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Here is a financial expert view on it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Bjw_SFNdM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Bjw_SFNdM),

There are multiple opinions and counter opinions but no one seems to know exactly how this is going to turn out. Its wait and watch for now...

</comment><comment><USER37> "India is conducting a big test of the idea that getting rid of cash can help address crime and corruption"

Demonetization is far from an 'experiment'. It's a fairly common practice: India did it in the 20s & the 40s, Nixon did it in the late 60s, the European Central Bank also did it recently.

<comment><USER17> > Demonetization is far from an 'experiment'. It's a fairly common practice: > India did it in the 20s & the 40s, Nixon did it in the late 60s, the > European Central Bank also did it recently.

Context:

\- India 20's 40's : Rs. 5000, 10000 notes

(current prices: ~$ 15k , 30k resp.)

\- Nixon : Gold & Silver exchange stopped.

\- ECB : 500 Euro notes out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> The article is far from ground reality. Comparing India to Nigeria, just for the topic of corruption, is nonsense.

The main problem with the current demonetization is cash availability. If the ATMs had worked and the cash was available in lower denominations, demonetization wouldn't be such a big issue.

</comment><comment><USER39> Living in Hong Kong, I don't quite understand why we're at the top of the list, given the prevalence of e-payment and the fact that most of the wealth here lies in property and finance.

</comment><comment><USER40> A friend of mine says that demonetization should boost startup community quite significantly, you have a nice way to wash your savings. We should see many funding rounds.

</comment><comment><USER41> I'm a taxpayer: I am paid electronically, so I must be scrupulous. My neighbour is a tradesman (americans would say 'contractor') - hence, all his invoices are cash. He has two brand new ford wildtrak's in his driveway: I can only assume he's paying little tax, and gets away with it due to being paid cash most of the time. I would welcome indian style laws here. Especially if it resulted in tax rates for honest people becoming lower due to more people were paying their share.

</comment><comment><USER42> "...many tax-evaders and corrupt public officials were believed to have their wealth in real estate and gold."

</comment><comment><USER43> This article stinks of bias.

<comment><USER30> And ignorance.

Surprised Bloomberg accepts that kind of nonsense...

<comment><USER44> Missed a major point... It can target terrorist funding and block duplicate currency printed from across border of India.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Indians have far too much trust on the state (well Modi, to be precise) - that's precisely why old-notes are quickly falling off of circulation. There appears to be plenty more possibly draconian measures in the pipeline.

See,

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=429jrPupdDY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=429jrPupdDY)

P.S: Nigeria's per-capita income is higher than India in nominal terms (so is Africa's as a whole).</comment>


Letter to a Peer Reviewer Who Stole and Published Our Manuscript as His Own - <AUTHOR> http://annals.org/aim/article/2592773/dear-plagiarist-letter-peer-reviewer-who-stole-published-our-manuscript#.WFARLHs9Z_U.twitter <comment><USER2> This actually happened to my advisor when I was in gradschool. He gave an assignment to review a paper that he had written several years before, but had never published. One of the students decided to search for the title, to find similar papers. Lo and behold, she found a paper with the same exact title published in some obscure journal... curious.

Turns out it was the same exact paper. Well, almost. The plagiarizers made two changes: of course they made themselves authors, and they added several citations to papers they had written (or plgarized?).

The saddest thing about all this is that each of the plagiarizers were themselves holders of doctorate degrees. These were not grad students who didn't know any better (although a grad student should know better), but full tenured professors!

I can't think of a better example of how the reward system in academia skews scientific progress.

<comment><USER3> I don't understand why you would do such a thing. When I was at university, plagiarism of any form was considered the most grievous sin possible. Ripping off someone else's research and actually publishing it under your own name would be career suicide.

<comment><USER4> It could be something to do with the culture of the specific institute where they worked (somewhere in southern Italy), rather than the culture of the whole academia in general. I remember Derek Lowe talking about this on his blog quite a bit in relation to typical excuses that plagiarists give.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It may be instructive to read the Editor in Chief's piece as well as the Retraction Watch commentary. Of interest is that the plagiarized piece fabricated wholesale a study population, making the published results incorrect and possibly dangerous.

[http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific- misconduct-...](http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific-misconduct- hurts)

[http://retractionwatch.com/2016/12/12/dear-peer-reviewer- sto...](http://retractionwatch.com/2016/12/12/dear-peer-reviewer-stole-paper- authors-worst-nightmare/)

<comment><USER6> I don't understand that article :/ could it be explained in layman terms

<comment><USER7> Could you ask specific questions? The second link seems to lay out the issues quite clearly to me, so I'm not sure where to start with a better explanation.

<comment><USER8> Sounds more like the poster is seeking a summary in simplified terms.

Specific to your point: if a person truly failed to understand the entirety of an article, I'm not entirely certain asking for specific questions will help as the person may not have a reference point upon which to build with answers to specific questions. Does that make sense?

<comment><USER9> I've spent enough time in support to realize that people's questions also convey their current thoughts and understanding even when they don't state it explicitly :).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> A few years ago I got an alert from Google Scholar asking me to confirm ownership of a recently published paper. Given how common my last name is, I got a lot of false matches, and the paper wasn't mine. The title, however, was similar to my undergrad research, so I took a look. Turns out that the paper was a slightly edited plagiarism of my undergrad thesis, on which I'd been credited as second author.

I emailed the first "author", the chair of the department listed as his affiliation, and the editor of the journal. The individual responded, and after some back and forth he claimed that he'd wanted to collaborate with me and had worked on reformatting the paper, but had not meant for it to go to print. The department chair said that they hadn't seen him since he'd graduated a five years previous. The editor said they'd take a look.

Finding that one's work has been plagiarized is frustrating, but dealing with the journal was even more so. They quickly acknowledged that the paper was plagiarism (by running a tool that checks against some corpus--why don't they always do this?) and had me approve a retraction statement. However, it took me sending a DMCA takedown notice and copying the publisher's general counsel on the email to actually get it posted. It then became clear that they had no intention of taking the paper off their website. Their reasoning was that their Code of Ethics precluded them from removing a retracted paper. A couple more emails to the general counsel pointing out that their Code of Ethics did not trump copyright law and a stated intention to seek legal representation finally got things sorted. I'm still not sure whether the plagiarism or the retraction notice went to print--I've been unable to get a hard copy of the journal issue.

I also demanded that the journal send me the referee reports, which they did after some insistence (and me pointing out that I was listed as an author). They also sent the response from the submitter. One of the reviewers was very concerned as to why previously published work was being submitted. In response, the individual moved some paragraphs around and made some claims about focusing on different parts of the research.

The individual later contacted me after the retraction notice started causing some problems for him, hoping that I could somehow make it go away. He admitted that he knowingly submitted the paper. He needed a paper in my area to help him change fields, and included my name because he intended to also include my name on some of his own work to make up for plagiarizing mine. If he hadn't done that he would have gotten away with it :(

</comment><comment><USER11> I've had R01 proposals turned down, then seen the same proposal, lightly reworded, submitted by a person who was on my study section, the next year, get funded.

that's when I knew it was time to get out of academia.

<comment><USER12> I had a rejected journal submission show up again as a keynote conference presentation a couple of years later. To be fair, with that sort of thing we could have just had the exact same ideas and so forth, but it wasn't a common research topic, and there were suggestive dots easy enough to connect. Regardless, it raised all sorts of alarms about what might have actually happened, and I started thinking seriously about the value of non-peer- reviewed, completely open publishing just as a way of maintaining authorship credit. Even if everything were totally innocent, it was a bit unnerving about the attribution of ideas and everything.

I'm having major conflicts about academics as a career. It seems to get more and more insane every day.

<comment><USER13> So proof of original authorship is a big issue in academia? You could easily create timestamped proof of having created a particular document, so is the issue more an insitutional one? Pardon me if I make sense, I'm a complete outsider to this.

<comment><USER14> That would rely on everybody creating timestamped proof, otherwise you could claim ownership of any paper that hasn't been timestamped by timestamping it yourself.

Not all cases are clear-cut, especially where a plagiariser restructures the document, changes the wording, sources, etc..

So I don't think this is a problem that can be solved practically, or even theoretically. But there are certainly things that can be done to better counter plagiarism.

<comment><USER15> You could post a hash of the paper to a trusted host like Twitter at the point you submit it, and you could then refer to that for proof of authorship and priority at a future date.

<comment><USER14> You could, however what happens if an author does not post a hash? If I found someone else's paper without a hash, I could generate a hash of my own and claim authorship.

This idea would only work if everybody started securing some form of proof of authorship before sharing papers with anyone, which I don't quite see happening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> What about the plagiarist's other contributions? Will there be any additional investigation into whether or not those papers were his own?

I found it a bit puzzling that the plagiarist's name was not mentioned, although it is easy to find from the links provided in the article. Why the professional courtesy in light of such an egregious violation of same?

Edit to add: The second link in the comment by jonchang answers my question. Though, I don't fully agree. It ought to serve as a warning to those would-be plagiarists that if they are caught, there will be real professional consequences.

In addition, the verbosity of the retraction is a bit annoying.

> As corresponding author I ask for retraction of our article Finelli et al. > (2016[1]) with the consent of all co-authors, because of unauthorized > reproduction of confidential content of another manuscript. The data in the > retracted article actually are from a cohort of patients from the Boston, MA > enrolled in a trial registered in ClinicalTrials.gov, NCT02454127. We deeply > regret these circumstances and apologize to the scientific community.

"unauthorized reproduction of confidential content of another manuscript" and "The data in the retracted article actually are from a cohort of patients from..." ought to read: "This manuscript was plagiarized, and the data falsified."

<comment><USER17> The author was interviewed[0] about it and this was his reasoning:

"I'm not looking to 'tattle' on the perpetrator — doing so starts to look like revenge rather than achieving the more important objectives, and may even draw attention away from those objectives."

[0] [https://www.statnews.com/2016/12/12/plagiarist-study- science...](https://www.statnews.com/2016/12/12/plagiarist-study-science/)

<comment><USER4> > _I 'm not looking to 'tattle' on the perpetrator — doing so starts to look > like revenge_

I do not fully understand this reasoning myself. Is this a common sentiment? That calling out perpetrators by name is counterproductive? Is it specific to some culture? I've never heard it expressed directly.

<comment><USER18> This is western culture.

For starters if you fuck up, you might ruin an innocent persons life, and in turn, hopefully they will sue you into the ground and ruin yours.

Did the authors listed actually submit the paper. Are all the authors complicit? Were there different levels of complicity? Was the Journal involved? Were the reviewers involved?

By just stating the facts the case is made and humanity hopefully moves forward reducing errors and less lives ruined.

Add to this, do you think a person who is at their wits end deserves to be taken down.

They might be just about to lose their house and position at there university and this was their last desperate ditched attempt.

Their harm to the original author really was minimal, if anything at all. (Plus they got an extra citation out of it)

Would you as a human not feel guilty if they killed themselves after you went to the extra effort of outing them and you realized just how bad a shape they were to do what they did?

What if they we in a manic state at the time, and the internet now turns on them and makes them and their families life a further living hell?

Western culture is mostly about about moving things forward, not revenge for revenges sake. Most decent people in the west try and practice this.

<comment><USER19> I upvoted this comment for the content but there's nothing here specific to the western culture, it's just how a decent person behaves anywhere in the world.

<comment><USER20> It is not a cultural universal, unfortunately.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Interesting. More context: [http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific- misconduct-...](http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific-misconduct- hurts)

Can anybody form an idea of the motivations behind such open misconduct? It is always very puzzling when people from the science community (which you usually don't enter without being intelligent and idealistic) get into such clearly wrong behaviour.

Another case that left me very puzzled (and terrified, regarding how long he got a away with this without someone asking questions - he basically shaped a scientific field): [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diederik_Stapel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diederik_Stapel)

<comment><USER22> Many research papers are so obscure that approximately zero people site them. Yet if you are a tenured professor it's publish or perish and there are often significant incentives. I suspect most of them would have gotten away with it if they changed the title a bit.

There are also sometimes incentives for when your paper is cited, thus citing your own papers... even if they were stolen as well.

<comment><USER23>
        > I suspect most of them
        > would have gotten away
        > with it if they changed
        > the title a bit

Cosine similarity over a corpus of published papers to find very similar ones would be an interesting exercise

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Here's a good explanation of the whole story:

[http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific- misconduct-...](http://annals.org/aim/article/2592772/scientific-misconduct- hurts)

For some reason it didnt load without me going into incognito mode, probably adblock related.

</comment><comment><USER25> I wonder if submitting a pre-print to a site such as arXiv could prevent this. At the very least, it'd serve as evidence that the article existed before being republished by the plagiarizer, making the fraud painfully obvious.

<comment><USER26> There's also the proof of existence[1]. But none of these really matter because the issue is not proving you were first, it's becoming aware of the plagiarism in the first place. The plagiarists are relying purely on security through obscurity--their cases would fall apart immediately upon discovery anyways.

[1]: [https://proofofexistence.com/about](https://proofofexistence.com/about)

<comment><USER25> Now I wonder how many people did this and got away with it.

There's a study¹ that determined the fate of 350 manuscripts rejected by the Annals of Internal Medicine. They found that 69% of them were eventually published in another journal. 70% of those were published in more specialized journals with lower impact factor.

It appears the reviewer took a similar approach. The manuscripts were published between 121 and 1792 days after rejection, with a mean of 552 days. The letter to the plagiarist says the article was published "a few months later" so that would be approximately 90 to 120 days?

¹ [http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9343(00)00450-2](http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9343\(00\)00450-2)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Since Copy and Paste is too easy and compute power is now ubiquitous, there need to be new rules that include generated data within publications: something constructed via computer from secret keys, that can be verified. (The minimum key size or other complexity measure would be required to increase over time, as always, to guard against easy cracking.)

The hard part is coming up with something that can't be just as easily replicated. If somebody is already willing to just copy an entire paper and change only the author's name, they could just as easily "re-publish" with their own key in a crypto system and you have the same problem of original attribution (sure it's "signed" now, by the plagiarizer!).

The real problem in security is tracking time: how do you reliably know that event A preceded event B? In theory, you need a trusted time value, such that you can go to a server at any time and check it. For instance, a server where: given a value, it returns the time when the value was first recorded (ever- increasing). The value could be derived from content (e.g. hash of your entire paper, incorporating your own key).

</comment><comment><USER28> Does anyone doubt this happens frequently in less egregious terms? Especially in computational fields, it's extremely easy to copy the idea of a paper with your own dataset.

At least it doesn't matter that much in my chosen field; if I get scooped, I just write up another project and keep going. If you're doing lengthy clinical trials or bench research, it's a much more difficult situation sadly.

</comment><comment><USER29> This kind of situation would be avoided by open peer review or at least overlay journals. One more reason to go the open access route.

</comment><comment><USER30> I believe there are times when you can also learn from others' mistakes. I remember the book The count of Monte Cristo and it's about a long and slow revenge. I hope your story will have a good ending!

</comment><comment><USER31> This is such a disturbing thing, it almost makes one to loose all the hopes on academia.

</comment><comment><USER32> How very Italian.

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't have the context here to understand what's going on by I feel bad for the author that their work was plagiarized. With that said, why didn't the author have a signed legal NDA in regards to the document?

<comment><USER33> Academic reviewers don't sign NDAs. We are working for free, as a community service. There's no way we'd accept legal restrictions on future speech in the process.

Copyright law provides legal remedies for plagiarism.

<comment><USER6> How is reviewing a research paper a community service? I don't mean that sarcastically but realistically medical journals specifically like in this article are commonly not free, thus I'm hard pressed to understand how this is a community service. An NDA would simply restrict you from discussing it prior to the authors publishing of it as I see it.

<comment><USER33> > How is reviewing a research paper a community service?

Traditionally we are neither offered nor would accept payment for technical paper reviews to avoid any suggestion of bias. Since someone reviews my papers too, I get roughly the same value of work back in-kind.

We are bound by academic integrity to not discuss reviews, unpublished work, or the identity of any reviewer. This is a very strong norm.

On NDAs generally: if your entire job is based saying what you think, you avoid signing anything that restricts your ability to do that.

<comment><USER34> > Since someone reviews my papers too, I get roughly the same value of work > back in-kind.

I've heard of journals that are loosely codifying this by saying they may refuse submissions from authors who serially refuse to review manuscripts. I don't know how prevalent it is overall, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Methods of preventing plagiarism

"Planning your paper:

        Consult with your instructor
        plan your paper
        take effective notes

Writing your paper:

        when in doubt, cite sources.
        make it clear who said what
        know how to paraphrase
        analyze and evaluate your sources"[39]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism)

</comment><comment><USER36> This is obviously an insane thing do (most fields are small enough that you will expect at least one person from the original paper to at least read the plagiarized paper), but this seems untrue:

> As you must certainly know, stealing is wrong. It is especially problematic > in scientific research. The peer-review process depends on the ethical > behavior of reviewers.

That people get proper credit is less important in scientific research than elsewhere, not more. It's obviously bad incentives, but with science it's most important that the information is accurate and gets out. Doesn't sound like the guy made it less accurate by republishing it with his own name on it.

I also find the "open letter" tone here a bit annoying and petulant. If this guy admitted what he did, why publish this without mentioning his name, and with just general platitudes like this? No one is on the side of someone who does this.

EDIT: Maybe I was unclear here, my last paragraph was intended to to indicate that no one would be on the side of the plagiarizers, and that I didn't like the indirect "you can figure out who we are talking about" nature of the letter. I think it would have been more effective to write this as, "Recently our work was stolen by such-and-such, we think it was terrible, etc."

<comment><USER37> I wonder how the "co-authors" feel about getting smeared with the plagiarism brush by the guy who did it? Did they have any foreknowledge of their names being attached to the stolen article?

<comment><USER7> Publishing something in someones name would probably be possible, but _another_ similarly bad offense. If they knew their name was on that paper, they either knew or had no business having their name on it.</comment></comment></comment>


An Update on Go and Generics in 2019 - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@alshdavid/an-update-on-go-and-generics-in-2019-59efdcc97a42 <comment><USER2> Too sad that it will "take time".

I worked on 3 projects in Go and in 2 of those generics would have been very useful.

I ended up copy pasting a bunch of functions and changing their types (interfaces would have been even worse in those cases).

There is a library doing that automatically, like c++ templating but worse since it is not part of the compiler.

Combined with anti-features like null pointers, rather stupid and overly verbose error handling and awful dependency management, it makes for a language which often feels hindered by shortsighted oversimplification.

I kind of like the simplicity of Go. But they lobbed too many things over board without having proper replacements. And repeated dumb stuff from other languages which should be no part of any modern language (Billion Dollar Mistake ect.)

</comment><comment><USER3> Interesting read, but I think the first part would benefit from a detour toward interfaces, why they are not good enough to solve the sort problem, and how contracts can help.

IIRC it is along those lines :

You could define a `Lesser` interface with a method `Less(Lesser) bool`, and implement this interface on what you want to sort, but then you would have no way to assert at compile time that x and y are of the same type in `x.Less(y)`.

As I understand them, contracts allow you to assert things like this.

</comment><comment><USER4> The blogspam must flow. How exactly was this an "update"? Just regurgitating what's already out there and hasn't changed in a year?</comment>


Suppressing fires has failed. Here's what California needs to do instead - sahin-boydas https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/09/17/1008473/wildfires-california-prescribed-burns-climate-change-forests/ <comment><AUTHOR> I don't know whether I'd turn to MIT for ideas in Western land management. Looking on the MIT website, there was a 2013 report on fire management practices from their Engineering Systems group, and a 2015 press release describing the dissolving of their Engineering Systems group. There is a 2019 high-level article on applying risk management techniques by folks who took Sloan Management courses (not MIT staff), but the 2020 MIT blurb about the research was more about how great the MIT management courses the authors took were than any concrete contribution to land management by MIT.

I'm guessing there is a lot of cringing going on in forestry schools in the West when MIT of all places publishes a high-visibility article on forestry and fire management that has a title that includes "Here's what California needs to do instead." Perhaps someone with actual subject matter expertise on this well-studied topic could comment on whether the article's content is as oversimplified and naive as one would assume it would be.</comment>


The Woz calls the Pope - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98977379 <comment><USER2> I was a little sad to find out Jobs hung up after requesting 4000 cups of coffee. It would have been far better to actually see if a little Starbucks could pull that off. Or if they would just turn it down altogether.

<comment><USER3> There is no way they could pull that off on that notice, from a Starbucks location. If nothing else, 3500 of them would be cold.

<comment><USER4> Realistically, 4000 of them would be cold.

<comment><USER3> Well, I was assuming nigh perfect logistics. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm baffled. Doesn't the top of the article say that Wozniak is known for pulling practical jokes like ordering 4000 cups of coffee from Starbucks? And then the end of the article shows Steve Jobs doing that? What am I missing?

<comment><AUTHOR> Whoever wrote the caption mixed up the Steves I guess.

Great story though, especially how the bishop 'owns' Steve Wozniak by buying time to do a little checking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> All I ever dialed from my Commodore 64 (the SID chip generated bluebox tones) in 1993 was the They Might Be Giants band dial-a-song, which played a new tune every day. (718 397 6962).

Also, Captain Crunch (John Draper) made a $1 million in about 1982 from selling Easy Writer, a word processor, to some big company. Something I've been trying to do for ages!

<comment><USER7> Are you sure these weren't just DTMF tones?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-tone_multi-frequency>

By 1993, they had closed the loophole that allowed audio signals to direct the phone switching network. With your Commodore 64, you were probably playing DTMF tones, which control touch-tone dialing.

With a blue box, rather than dialing a phone number, Woz was actually changing the way his call was routed. He was controlling the switching network itself, routing his call manually across the globe. With DTMF, you are just dialing a phone number the same way you do with your finger.

<comment><AUTHOR> It could be, but that is not the whole story. Plenty of countries were 'late' in wising up to this and took a lot longer to adapt to out of band signalling.

So, depending on the age of the network you're on there is some chance that even today you could use tricks like these.

1993 is perfectly believable to me, depending on the location of the person making the claim.

The tone to reset a trunk was 2.6 KHz, the reason why '2600' is still a term with notstalgia attached to it for very early hackers.</comment></comment></comment>


Don't shake hands with men from the north of England - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/oct/14/dirty-hands <comment><USER2> Look at what they did here. After talking about dirty hands, they throw in this nugget:

"Worldwide, around 1.9 million people die from diarrhoea every year. In Britain, an estimated one in five has an episode of diarrhoea each year."

You see what he did there? He put together two unrelated sentences in a way that scares you. Let's break down the 1.9 million:

From a google search:

"Global deaths from diarrhoea of children aged less than five were estimated at 1.87 million"

"WHO African and South-East Asia regions combined contain 78% (1.46 million) of all diarrhoea deaths occurring among children in the developing world"

"In sanitary living conditions where there is ample food and a supply of clean water, an otherwise healthy patient usually recovers from viral infections in a few days. However, for ill or malnourished individuals diarrhea can lead to severe dehydration and can become life-threatening without treatment"

"In many cases of diarrhea, replacing lost fluid and salts is the only treatment needed."

You see what he did there? He took something common, threw in some death statistics, and made a horror story out of nothing.

<comment><USER3> Five thousand children per day _shitting themselves to death_ around the world scares me without needing to put it next to any other sentence. :(

<comment><USER2> That's not really how it works. The shitting part comes first, then afterwards, there's nothing really left, and anything you drink just comes flowing right out. They get parched and die of dehydration.

It's easier than dying of malaria. With malaria, you feel as cold as hell, but you're burning up. Then you go into a heat delirium, where you start having hallucinations, you start throwing up at the same time everyday, you can't move anymore, and you slip into death. A lot more people die of malaria than of diarhea. And malaria is a lot easier to cure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> There are a couple thing I wonder about:

1) Is sample size large enough to draw conclusions? They have people at bus stops, rail stop, people from the north. from London, etc but only 409 total? And not everyone agreed to have their hands swabbed, so is it possible that the "dirtier" hands from London just turned down the swabbing?

And these are people who may also have just come off the rail or bus from elsewhere. If they all touched some common thing on the way out of the vehicle, they could be otherwise clean people who just got swabbed after picking up pathogens.

Still, half the people is really high. They should redo the experiment and see if they reach the same conclusions.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm FROM the north of England, and I still don't think this has any relevance to HN. Besides, I'm left-handed, so that's a whole new handshaking ballgame.

</comment><comment><USER6> If there is such a disparity, presumably that will show up in the health stats?

They mention a few viruses transmissable in this way, so if their numbers and their inferences stand up, we should see a huge difference in the number of cases (or speed of communication - I'm not sure which - I am not an epidemiologist) between the London and Newcastle?

If such a difference doesn't show up, either their methodology was bogus, their inferences wrong (these viruses can't be usefully transmitted in this way) or it doesn't matter because some other factor balances it (maybe greater exposure to these bugs causes a degree of resistance).</comment>