Dog able to verbally communicate with people - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCi-FwKsBDg <comment><USER2> [https://www.hungerforwords.com/post/teaching-my-dog-to- talk-...](https://www.hungerforwords.com/post/teaching-my-dog-to-talk-1)

This is a fascinating summary of training process and accomplished results. Author is speech therapist for children and applies similar approach instead of rewarding dog for just pressing buttons. Most of comments here are too dismissive of methods and results.

<comment><USER3> People do not want to believe animals are sentient and can communicate. They often spend their whole lives ignoring the evidence plainly in front of their own eyes. Hell, they used to do this with other humans..

I would argue this training is not about teaching the dog to communicate, they already do that. This is teaching the dog to communicate in a way that is understandable and verifiable to people other than their owner.

My dog learned to cough to get my attention and then point to the thing he wanted, or give me a look he knew I would understand. Barking at me would often just get my frustration, but he was so excited when he found out that we could both make the same noise coughing. After that, he would only bark if he was mad. Communication, but not with repeatable, verifiable 'words'.

<comment><USER4> > Hell, they used to do this with other humans..

There are enough that still explicitly do and another set that uses things like Evo Psych, IQ testing, and renewed interest in Non-African human origin and arguments that humans aren't a single species (since species isn't an exact term to begin with) to imply the same.

<comment><USER5> First I have heard of that stuff. So that is like, a new type of racism? Kind of next-level racism.

<comment><USER6> It's basically scientific racism and was used to justify slavery for a while.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This dog and its button pushing communication system have come up a few times here on HN. It really does seem incredible. I trained my dog to ring a bell to go in and out of the back door whenever he wants, but this is on a whole other level. How do we know this isn't just a sophisticated version of the "The Clever Hans Effect"? [1] I'd love to believe this is what it looks like, but my skeptical radar is tingling.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans)

</comment><comment><USER8> So she gets attention when she touches the buttons and gets food when she pushes "eat".

I like the idea but I don't think you can conclude it's communication any more than a rat pressing a lever to get his brain stimulated was.

<comment><USER9> I've come across these videos on TikTok many times - Stella has a much larger apparent vocabulary than "I need attention" and "food". From memory, there's another video out there somewhere of her pressing "Stella" "want" "walk". Her owner says "But Stella, we just went for a walk." The dog's response is "Stella" "want" "walk" "again" <delay, looks at owner> "now".

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I feel like this is missing some context. E.g. the word "mad" seems complex; how has this been introduced and how do we know that this is what the dog is trying to communicate?

<comment><USER11> There's context in the details about the video. Apparently the owner didn't leave like normal and didn't give the dog her customary treat on leaving.

<comment><USER10> I was referring to the context related to the learning process and word meaning, the description doesn't explain that.

The other comment at [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23767827](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23767827) links to an article with more details. This is what I was missing.

<comment><USER11> This article is much more detailed, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Every Dog does that all the time..it's not special, he bark's or pushes me with the nose, i ask food? If he look's down with his eyes rolling to the left as if there is a virtual bowl i know he want's food, if its not food he goes to the door and pushes the door with the nose, if cuddles he presses his body against my leg. The only difference here is that this poor dog had to learn howto use color buttons because his (former?)-owner (probably) cannot interpret his face or gestures.

<comment><USER13> > use color buttons

Even though dogs are colourblind. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

<comment><USER12> But not colorblind as in b/w:

[https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine- corner/200810...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/canine- corner/200810/can-dogs-see-colors)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This dog has been trained to press the Eat button to get food. It has not been trained to form sentences?

<comment><USER15> It definitely has been trained to form sentences. Haven't you watched the other videos? There are several instances of the dog refusing food unless its owner acknowledges what it has to say first.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Hmm, so what the dog wants to communicate is that she wants a food treat. Not exactly unexpected.

Reminds me of the famous Gary Larson's comic:

[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1d/b5/27/1db5279f8a07f1601bf7...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1d/b5/27/1db5279f8a07f1601bf75a92caf9db0a.jpg)

<comment><USER17> Well, a lot of us only show up for work because we want our money treat. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> What breed is that dog?

<comment><USER19> I'm wondering the same. Its size and shape suggests Border Collie but fur color + length says otherwise.

Edit: I just found it. Blue Healer and Catahoula mix.</comment></comment>


Let That Be a Lesson To You, Son: Never Upgrade. - <AUTHOR> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

<comment><USER2> This is why my Mac runs OS X Tiger, and my Linux box runs FC4. The Linux box will die that way, but someday, when I have a spare week, I'll upgrade the Mac to Leopard. I hope a week is enough.

</comment><comment> meat-eater As the old saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it :)</comment>


How Snapchat Killed the Homepage - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessoffashion.com/articles/fashion-tech/snapchat-clique-obsessee-hearst-sweet <comment><USER2> OK, that's some pretty egregious clickbait.

Synopsis of story: there's some random marketing company who doesn't post their articles on the Web, and they still managed to get 9,100 followers on Instagram. Also, it's still in "incubation mode" and has no revenue.

This, as far as I can tell, is it. Not exactly the death of the Internet yet.

<comment><AUTHOR> Mostly agree but with one exception: I, and I believe people in general, do not much visit individual blogs or websites anymore. Instead we visit aggregators and feeds, whether there apps or websites like reddit, HN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is a nice puff piece for Clique Media Group about their brilliant strategy not to invest in the open web. I heard about it on the open web, read an article about on the open web (via a link on the open web), and wouldn't have heard about in the first place if not for the open web.

> "While analytics on many of these platforms aren't as easy to come by as > with a traditional website, it's often the promise of engagement that > currently makes it worthwhile for a brand."

So we're back to days of, "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is, I don't know which half"? How is this better?

</comment><comment><USER4> tldr: the url is "businessoffashion . com / articles / fashion-tech / snapchat-clique-obsessee-hearst-sweet" which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.

Must be a slow news day.</comment>


Were French People Born to Speak French? - <AUTHOR> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/were-french-people-born-to-speak-french/#:~:text=You%20might%20assume%20that%20people,raised%20immersed%20in%20French%20culture.&text=Indeed%2C%20people%20essentialize%20language. <comment><USER2> Dupe: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24069880](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24069880)</comment>


Mathematics's role in deciphering the molecular basis of life - <AUTHOR> http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fmolb.2014.00002/full

<comment><USER2> The article could have done a better job making clear that RNA topology has been extensively studied using computational linguistics, and much of the work by Chomsky applied directly.

Note: "The general problem of predicting lowest free energy structures with pseudoknots has been shown to be NP-complete." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoknot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoknot)

<comment><AUTHOR> Are there any books or papers on that which you'd suggest?</comment></comment>


Google launches private GIT for developers - <AUTHOR> https://cloud.google.com/source-repositories/ <comment><USER2> Seeing as Microsoft owns GitHub I guess this is a way to compete in this space. I bet this was an internal tool for a long time and now it's released to the public.

The only worry here is that if you build your businesss around anything google, you risk them changing the rules alá GMaps or just sunsetting it at some stage.</comment>


When a great idea isn't enough: Why the "Last.fm for news" died - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/uk/2010/12/17/when-a-great-idea-isnt-enough-why-the-last-fm-for-news-died/?awesm=tnw.to_17Cic&utm_content=twitter-publisher-main&utm_medium=tnw.to-twitter&utm_source=direct-tnw.to <comment><USER2> I'm one of the founders of Readness. Europe gets a lot of flak for it's venture capital world. Yes, seed funding is (too) scarce - but Readness didn't fail because we couldn't raise (and it isn't fair to blame the seed investors for us failing - everyone has been amazingly friendly and I've made many good friends "on the other side"), we were not at the point of being able to raise a meaningful round. We ran out of capital (after 2.5 years of building multiple products) before we built a compelling product in the space. Considering we raised less than £50,000 I think we had a good run.

I think it's kind of lame to disseminate why stuff failed in hindsight publically, but I'm proud that we failed with Readness so fast - it'd be easy to be so determined we continued iterating for many more years without having a fresh start to be radically new.

(I have a new startup in the works, don't worry)

</comment><comment><USER3> Sorry, but his article is really one-sided. It just blames the lack of funding for the failure and disregards other factors and challenges of a startup.

As I understood Readness was somehow funded (4iP) but the funding was then cut off for some reason. They tried to get into YC but failed and then decided to kill the service/startup.

What I read from the article is that the founders weren't trying hard enough. What about other sources for funding? Sure, YC is nice, but it isn't the only place in the world to get funding. To how many other investors have the founders reached out? What about the numbers (users, pageviews)? What were they going to make money from?

 _> "When we returned from San Francisco, we realised that the funding and resources required to iterate Readness into something that could attract hyper-growth, were far higher than we had available."_

This reads like: "We weren't abele to get the funding that easy and decided to kill the service after a half year of operation."

How about slow and steady growth in contrast to hyper-growth? More PR? (I would have been a potential user, if I knew it existed). Most startups take definitely more then 6 months to build a solid user base, features and to get funded. It's _very_ hard work.

As long as you are somehow growing and improving the service, you're good. Don't count (on) money, build a business/service and work hard. If you need money to cover your costs of living: bootstrap, do consulting, take another job.

What I basically want to say is that while funding might an essential aspect of your startup, it's not the only one and the solution to everything. So, don't blame it always on funding!

<comment><USER2> It feels oddly ironic for you to criticize an article of being one sided and then for you to make various assumptions based on the article.

<comment><USER3> Maybe you're right. Maybe I let myself get carried away.

However, in the first part of my comment, I ask questions I wish the article would have answered somehow.

In the second part (after the quote), I'm maybe a little fierce, but it's more a general statement on a common mistake (giving up too easy) that many fresh startups make, including some in which I was involved.

It was not my intention to make assumptions. So, in order to improve my writing, it would be nice if you tell me about the assumptions the you read in the comment.

That all said, I feel sympathy for the founders and wish them all the best. Too bad they shut the servie down, as I read about it here for the first time and would have been a potential user.

<comment><USER4> (By the way, you're replying to one - pclark is one of the founders of Readness/Broadersheet).

News is just a tremendously hard market. My suspicion, and I have scar tissue to back this up, is that it's a trap. It's one of those things everyone _thinks_ should be sexy, but the numbers don't work.

<comment><USER2> adw is totally right about news/content. Bad Market, glad to be out.

<comment><USER5> What are the reasons that it's a bad market?

<comment><USER2> Consumers don't feel many pain points that are harsh enough to change habits and loyalty from current market leaders.

Hard to monetize in scalable manner.

News (and even content) is percieved as small by investors.

Numerous - dozens - of failed startups, that have tried hundreds of propositions in the past decade - isn't clear what has changed to make those propositions work today.

Using someone elses content is of questionable legal grounds (EG: when you are winning, they'll knock)

Current social products like Facebook or Twitter or even Reddit do "good enough" job for vast majority.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I was interested when I heard about it on HN, and went to sign up immediately...and then immediately didn't bother with it when I learned it required Facebook and Chrome. Facebook as a log in is a complete dealbreaker for me, and I've heard others express this sentiment too.

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm not so sure it was that great of an idea. Do I really want everyone to know that I secretly checked out the video of Miley Cyrus taking a bong hit? Or that I visit the Fark 5x a day?

Not everything that can be shared should be shared, people. :-)

</comment><comment><USER8> Wow, why I haven't heard of this? First delicious now this? I was just waiting for voyurl because of the potential, then bam there was already one and it is now closing...

</comment><comment><USER9> It seems like a cool idea to me. I'd even thought of working on something similar.

How many of you would use a service like that?

<comment><USER5> I would not. I primarily share news with friends using Facebook. Facebook has the one-stop solution for almost every social thing I need.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> But why couldn't they get funding?

</comment><comment><USER11> Where TF is last.tv.

Lastfm for tv would be the best thing since er... lastfm.

<comment><USER12> I'd argue that Netflix is slowly moving towards such a concept.</comment></comment>


Nothing to Hide – a documentary about surveillance and you [video] - <AUTHOR> https://vimeo.com/189016018 <comment><USER2> On the topic of having nothing to hide, the following description of how 'privacy' differs from 'secrecy' really opened my eyes to the importance of the whole privacy issue and why not having anything to hide isn't an excuse to give up your right to privacy: What you do in the bathroom is not a secret, but you still want to close the door—you still want your privacy.

Everyone knows what happens in the bathroom, but everyone also understands that you have a right to your privacy in there and they don't expect you to leave the door open (unless, of course, that's your thing).

<comment><USER3> But someone might not be doing what everyone thinks they're doing in there.

<comment><USER4> But we don't have glass doors in bathrooms because of that

<comment><USER3> Tons of mens restrooms don't have doors or walls around shitters specifically so no one fucks or does drugs in them.

<comment><USER5> Where do you live? I've never seen men's rooms that didn't have walls and doors for each stall. I hope you aren't in prison.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Follow NOTHING TO HIDE on facebook" ... _sigh_

[https://nothingtohidedoc.wordpress.com/](https://nothingtohidedoc.wordpress.com/)

<comment><USER7> :) I find it really hard to follow news from movies because often they use things like Squarespace and Wix, and these motherf^W^W^W^W^W^Wsaints never have any feeds. You have a mailing list to follow if you're lucky, and usually the only other medium is the Facebook page.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy the book "No Place to Hide" by Robert O'Harrow (2004!), which explores the surveillance state at the intersection of private coronations. Many of the ideas and topics discussed in the book, at the time sounding more like conspiracy theories, have come true.

[https://www.amazon.com/Place-Hide-Robert-OHarrow- Jr/dp/07432...](https://www.amazon.com/Place-Hide-Robert-OHarrow- Jr/dp/0743287053)

<comment><USER9> It's total class war of the rich vs the rest, sorry to tell ya. Hear it from Zbigniew brezinksi, former national security advisor of the united states.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZyJw_cHJY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZyJw_cHJY)

<comment><USER10> I am pretty sure that good ole Zbig is more of a part of the problem than the solution ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> website - [https://nothingtohidedoc.wordpress.com](https://nothingtohidedoc.wordpress.com)

torrents - [http://nothingtohide.aquilenet.fr](http://nothingtohide.aquilenet.fr)

kickstarter - [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1587081065/nothing- to-h...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1587081065/nothing-to-hide-the- documentary)

</comment><comment><USER12> We all have stuff to hide, but shouldn't we agree that we shouldn't?

<comment><USER13> The powerful ought to be have no privacy, because with power there's the need for public oversight. Ditto for corporations, government, and so on. And conversely, the weak ought to have total privacy, because they're so vulnerable.

In reality, we have pretty much the opposite. Because wealth and power protect themselves. So it goes.

<comment><USER14> Perhaps the powerful should have less professional privacy. But personal privacy is not far from dignity for many. So let's not make their personal lives any more of an industry than it already is.

Still, the idea that the weak should have more privacy sounds about right.

<comment><USER13> I get what you say about personal privacy. But with extreme power, there's not much that's legitimately private. Consider what people must reveal to get the highest security ratings, for example.

<comment><USER15> On the other hand, with enough power privacy is replaced by immunity. The importance of privacy is heavily distorted by one's level of vulnerability to state or social coercion.

As an example - it's not clear whether J. Edgar Hoover was gay, but it's quite clear that he threatened and even blackmailed people who raised the question too publicly. Meanwhile, employees lower in the national security apparat were surveilled and dismissed based on even rumors of homosexuality. Privacy remains desirable, but becomes less essential with that sort of rising power.

<comment><USER13> I disagree with "with enough power privacy is replaced by immunity". With few exceptions, the truly powerful now have both privacy _and_ immunity. Both, because of their power. But I'm not talking about current systems.

I believe that the powerful ought to have neither privacy nor immunity. That ought to be the trade-off for having substantive power. There's the old adage about power coming with responsibility. So I'm rather expanding on the basis for responsibility.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The GitHub for Android beta is here - <AUTHOR> https://github.blog/2020-01-14-the-github-for-android-beta-is-here/ <comment><USER2> Completely missing any feedback or bug reporting features...

And there are issues...

Not impressed anyway

<comment><USER3> Tap your profile photo in the top left, tap the settings cog on the right, and tap share feedback.

<comment><USER2> Case in point, buried in a series of menus that weren't obvious with a menu at the bottom and top right as well.

<comment><USER3> To be completely fair, virtually every app I've ever used has a "Send Feedback" function in the settings, and quite a few of them use both a bottom app bar along with some sort of overflow menu. Biggest example would be Google Play, something familiar to almost all Android users.

<comment><USER2> The four Google apps I tried had I top level entry for feedback from the first hamburger menu, within one click from the Basu UI.

Several non-google apps were more obscure. GitHub feedback is an email address.

I've been waiting for 5+ years for a decent GH mobile experience. Suffice it to say, major disappointment for this "beta"

What are they even doing with repo sorting, uuid based? Certainly not time or alphabetical like the web experience</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Color CEO Bill Nguyen Checks Out Of Day-To-Day Operations - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/28/color-ceo-nguyen-is-out/ <comment><USER2> Can you imagine any other CEO of a company doing this? His behavior is bizarre and confusing. Imagine Tim Cook's email to his employees:

From: Tim Cook, Apple's CEO To: Apple Employees Re: Maps and... stuff..

Hi everyone,

As you know, I haven't been at work the past few months. What have I been doing? Well, "What _haven't_ I been doing?" is the better question! I've taken the jet to Fiji, hiked Kilimanjaro, and eaten just the best crème brûlée at this little place off of the Champs-Élysées.

This is what I do when I know a project is a complete disaster, which happens often. I do this all the time. I just travel around. Drink a lot of beer, smoke a lot of pot. It's no big deal; nothing new or exciting.

You'd think the board would've fired my ass a long time ago, but nah - I've made sure to stack the deck with my buddies and we've got enough cash to flounder around for a while. The CEO checks keep coming, and I keep cashing them, so I'll keep the title warm.

Since iOS6 release, the Maps app has gotten a lot of criticism. In response, I've decided to go to Hawaii. To recharge my batteries. Yeah, they were pretty well charged from my last two months' off but you have no idea how draining it was to write this letter. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that.

I think I need another couple of months to recover. If some of you quit because of my irresponsible and downright bizarre behavior, I totally understand. To the rest of you, though, expect a pivot. Or something.

Aloha,

Tim

<comment><USER3> Please leave the asinine BS out of this forum. One of the things that sets the conversations here apart from run of the mill news sites is the civil tone. Note that it's very possible that the guy you're making fun of is reading what you write, and one of the guidelines is, "Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation."

Projects fail. I would be exceedingly surprised if Bill takes the current state of affairs lightly and would even expect that his absence is only nominally his choice. Do you really want people lining up to mock you the next time you invest a chunk of your life into a project and it goes south? The guy is already rich from previous _massive_ successes; the CEO checks that you mention won't contribute significantly to his net worth.

<comment><USER4> Maybe I'm just an asshole, but if I were involved in Color and my CEO has been vacationing for two months while we struggle with product failure... I'd say something fairly similar to his face (if he showed his face in the office, anyhow).

> _"Do you really want people lining up to mock you the next time you invest a > chunk of your life into a project and it goes south?"_

Nobody is picking on him because of Color's product failure. Not even the TechCrunch article. People are picking on him because he's vacationing while his company flounders.

I don't know enough about this guy's life to tell whether or not this is the right call for him _personally_ , but I don't think it takes a rocket surgeon to figure that this is _really_ bad for the company and its employees.

<comment><USER3> Your comment assumes he's actually just on vacation and not that he was forced (or significantly nudged) out. I'd put my money on the latter. That he wrote a mail saying, "Everything's fine, this is totally normal..." in a time of (probable) crisis speaks very little to actual structure of events.

<comment><USER5> So we should be second guessing his own quotes (assuming they're accurate)? _"I do this historically. I take off for a little while and I vacation. It's nothing new or exciting,"_

From my point of view, a guy who's not been in the office for two months, who takes a phone call from a journalist while boarding a plane to Maui, doesn't sound like he's being 'forced' to do anything.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> _"I do this historically. I take off for a little while and I vacation. It's nothing new or exciting," he said. "The roles of founders and CEOs is to get everyone engaged and give opportunities to people. And when things haven't worked out as expected, the best way for me to recharge is to go on sabbatical."_

The only similar situation I can recall is Michael Arrington taking a break in 2009 after someone spat in his face at a conference:

<http://techcrunch.com/2009/01/28/some-things-need-to-change/>

The spitting incident was the last straw. I believe Arrington was truly burnt out from working like a dog for four years, and putting up with a lot of other stressful situations (Crunchpad, legal threats, etc.). And, to his credit, he came back after a month or so. It's also worth noting that he had a CEO (Heather Harde, who joined TechCrunch in 2006) still running the business.

As for Color, you can imagine what would happen if a CEO at practically any other company in a similar situation (major product failure, staff bailing, impending pivot) took off on an indefinite sabbatical for months. He or she would be out.

</comment><comment><USER7> Based solely on what's in this article (perhaps reality is different), this reinforces my inkling that people get truly rich from mostly just two things: who you know, and marketing. Market yourself (or your product) well and know the right people, and you too can be the CEO of a vaporware company funded with more money than most people will see in their entire lives, while spending your months on sabbatical in Tahoe and Hawaii. Unbelievable. On the other hand, this _is_ Techcrunch, and the reality is undoubtedly a little more nuanced than what's presented here.

<comment><USER8> You're right, the reality is _far_ more nuanced than what's presented here. Setting aside the current Color fiasco, Bill Nguyen is a highly accomplished entrepreneur with close to $1B worth of startup exits in his past [1][2]. To say that he's gotten rich from "who he knows", and "marketing" is spitting in the face to a guy who's built real genuine successes from scratch, when he was a nobody. He is _not_ making off like a bandit with the current $41M investment. This is turning out to be a failure from which he will not benefit financially in any significant way.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nguyen> [2] <http://www.fastcompany.com/1784823/bill-nguyen-boy-bubble>

<comment><USER9> Is this wiki page for real?

"He grew up in Houston, the son of Vietnamese immigrants whom he says he consistently disappointed. They wanted him to score A's. Instead, he scored an unpredictable mix of A's and F's, and earned a 1.4 grade point average in his senior year. He was easily distracted and confused."

Pretty much sums it up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It's strange to me that most of the talk around Color is focused around the founders and not the investors. The investors are a much more interesting subject. I mean, there are always going to be people willing to accept 40 million without a real product, heck I'm probably one of them, but I'd like to see interviews with the people who thought it was a good idea to give a company at that stage much money. I'm much more interested in hearing from them.

<comment><USER11> That _would_ be interesting, but I doubt it will ever happen. Nobody with any interest in participating in the VC-funded ecosystem (which includes much of the tech media, sadly) is ever going to point at one of the investors who fund that ecosystem and publicly call them out as a sucker.

Even if they, you know, _are_ a sucker.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Another valid title could be "Interview with Irresponsible Aloof CEO who lives in Bizarroland."

If there was any explanation of why Color is a giant smoldering pile of failure this article encapsulates it pretty well.

I'd put particularly salient quotes from the article here but they're all fine examples that could be used as chapter headers in a book called "How Not to CEO (or wasting other people's money because YOLO)"

<comment><USER13> Maybe he was too aloof, or maybe not, we don't know. But what we do know is that most startups fail. I think you're being overly harsh.

<comment><USER12> I don't disagree with your central point (most startups fail). But my personal opinion is that it is the epitomy of unprofessionalism to "go on sabbatical" when you are the CEO and your company is literally melting down around you.

At his point it the decision should come down to "how do I right this ship?" or "should I turn over the helm?" not "should I go to Maui, Tahoe or both?" His responses show such an unbelievable detachment from the investment made in the company, the employees, the technology and anything else that's going on around him.

"I do this historically. I take off for a little while and I vacation. It's nothing new or exciting."

Imagine the CEO of any company, after having some disasterous lauches and _really_ _really_ struggling to find a direction and needing somebody at the helm more than ever, just up and disappearing for a couple of months, nobody really knows exactly where he is or how to get ahold of him. Banging around Monte Carlo or the Maldives or the Alps. And when somebody finally gets ahold of him to find out his opinion on why the dev team up and left, why the product and company are failing and what he's going to do to fix things comes back with this pile of nonsense.

"I feel bad about it, I can see why people would leave, you know with everything we've ever done being a giant failure and then with me up and disappearing for who knows how long, if I was back at the office I'd probably pivot, maybe, but I'm not there, maybe I'll feel like figuring something to do with the money we have left in the bank when I finish parasailing, maybe whatever, it's not like I don't have a habit of just up and disappearing like this, the board _knows this about me_. We'll chat when I get back from Snowboarding in the Alps."

Most startups fail for a variety of reasons, lack of experience, funding, mistargeting the market, etc. Most startups don't fail because the CEO took his money and ran off to a tropical paradise "to vacation" while the house was on fire.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> _According to several sources close to the company, Nguyen has not been seen at Color's Palo Alto headquarters for more than two months. The speculation was that Nguyen was "probably either in Tahoe or Hawaii."_

And then a little further down...

 _We're told the changes have come after a power struggle between members of Color's board — some of whom are loyal to Nguyen, and others who were anxious for a change._

The guy hasn't even shown up for work in _two months_ , and there are still board members who are _loyal to him?_ He must have some pretty awesome blackmail material on them.

<comment><USER14> I can see someone checking out to a 10-day vipassana meditation retreat to think about where to take the company, but to go hang out in Maui for two months is beyond inexcusable. There is no insight he's earning on day 60 that he couldn't have gotten on day 10.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> If you recall the discussion we were having about really stressful situations, and the way people react. One is to become a tiger and fight, the other is to flee.

It is important to realize that this is not necessarily a conscious choice, you learn a lot about yourself when you get tested like this, you can see it in people experiencing a disaster like Katrina, when it finally sinks in that this may be the last few days of their lives. That level of stress flips the switch and blam! there you are either fighting or running.

Time to move the CEO into a different role, one which takes advantage of the charisma and energy and vision, but one that does not involve being ultimately responsible.

<comment><USER12> I do remember this. I wonder if Nguyen has never encountered a failure before? He's apparantely a successful early-stage startup CEO. Has everything he's worked on worked out?

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> "I don't think there is a pivot happening now at all, but if I were there we would pivot."

Hey man, if you're the CEO and they aren't pursuing the right strategy, then get your ass back there and do your job. If you don't feel like doing your job, then resign and let the board find someone who is at least going to try to accomplish something.

</comment><comment><USER17> This reads like an article on the Onion. Unbelievable.

</comment><comment><USER18> Just some historical context: <http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/160/bill- nguyen-startups> (HN discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3229299>)

That was about half a year after Color got funded with $41 million.

</comment><comment><USER19> When Color where all the rage in the tech circles a year ago, weren't they represented as the epitome of _"invest in talent over the product"_ , with Mr. Nguyen as the star?

Where does that leave them?

</comment><comment><USER20> Color was a great idea, far beyond any social network. The concept of an elastic network which cannot be influenced, where you cannot friend or unfriend people and where a system decides who is your friend was just awesome. Adding friends or contacts manually is so 2005.

<comment><USER21> I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. The bit "[a network] where a system decides who is your friend was just awesome" could easily go either way.

Did you actually find out interesting things from its statements as to who your friends were, or do you not like the idea (it doesn't sound particularly appealing to me)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Boy, I sure wish I could get paid to travel while not having to deliver any results of any kind. Must be nice!

</comment><comment><USER23> What does color make these days?

<comment><USER24> Not money.

<comment><USER25> Except lots of it for their CEO to pay for his vacation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> A lot of commenters here are mentioning Nguyen is pulling in a "CEO Salary". Does anyone actually know this? As a founder CEO with a lot of personal cash in the bank, I would assume he is taking little to no salary. Not that this makes up for his absence in a time of need, but just sayin'. . .

</comment><comment><USER27> Wait, _what_ day to day operations?

</comment><comment><USER28> Every time I go on Color webpage, they have a completely different product under same name. I feel sorry for people getting tricked with ridiculous pivot attempts.

</comment><comment><USER29> Have you ever listened to this guy? He's completely full of it; one line of BS after another. It's not even worth hearing what he has to say.

</comment><comment><USER30> Rumor has it the guy is broke---his house in Hawaii is for rent and he rushed out of his house in Palo Alto like it was being foreclosed on--- So he is likely using the "vacation" time to return to his roots---the trailer parks of Houston. You BS and lie your way thru Silicon Valley until eventually you end up right back where you came from---someone should do a "rags to riches to rags" story

</comment><comment><USER31> This all seems a little too hard to believe. I'm not really confident that the CEO has been smoking pot and drinking beer in Tahoe and Hawaii for the past two months. When software companies start to fail, the engineers know it. I wouldn't be surprised if they just talked to some pissed off engineers and weren't really getting the straight dope.

</comment><comment><USER32> lol.</comment>


Oracle wants $9.3B for Google's use of Java in Android - <AUTHOR> http://www.computerworld.com/article/3048774/android/oracle-wants-93b-for-googles-use-of-java-in-android.html <comment><USER2> I was thoroughly impressed with the judge who presided over the last ruling -- IIRC he went so far as to learn at least the basics of Java to the point where I remember being impressed by the insight of the questions he posed. There are subsets of law one can specialize in ranging from medical malpractice to obscure patent litigation, but as far as I know there are no factors linking a presiding judge to a specific specialty. I really think other judges should follow the example he set and at least develop a core understanding in a similar fashion.

Edit: [http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/wha/oraclevgoogle](http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/wha/oraclevgoogle) the original Alsup opinion

[http://regmedia.co.uk/2014/05/09/oracle_google_appeal_opinio...](http://regmedia.co.uk/2014/05/09/oracle_google_appeal_opinion.pdf) The appeal opinion -- which, as it stands, rules that programming APIs are in fact copyrightable.

(Also, look at the list of counsel -- heavy hitters, damn.)

      Oracle appeals from the portion of the final judgment entered against it, and Google
      cross-appeals from the portion of that same judgment entered in favor of Oracle as to
      the rangeCheck code and eight decompiled files. Because we conclude that the declaring
      code and the structure, sequence, and organization of the API packages are entitled
      to copyright protection, we reverse the district court's copyrightability determination
      with instructions to reinstate the jury's infringement finding as to the 37 Java
      packages. Because the jury deadlocked on fair use, we remand for further consideration
      of Google's fair use defense in light of this decision.

<comment><USER3> On software like JDK, my feeling (without thinking too much) is that the API is actually the most valuable part and the one that requires true expertise to craft.

<comment><USER4> Why do you think so?

The java.* API is not even that good (it is very verbose to achieve basic things). The only reason to re-implement it is compatibility with existing, third-party software using that API.

If you would come with API, that would be technically better, but doing the same thing, do you think that everyone would rewrite all their libraries, frameworks and apps? No way.

<comment><USER5> That's the point. The API isn't valuable because of the creative expression (the thing copyright protects), it's valuable because its functionality (the thing copyright doesn't protect) is necessary for compatibility.

Oracle apparently bamboozled the Federal Circuit into deciding that something called the "structure, sequence and organization" of the API should be copyrightable. But of course nobody cares about that part -- the order doesn't matter. You can sort the API into alphabetical order and strip out all the comments and it would make no real difference to anybody. But here is Oracle claiming that the copyrightable part is worth billions of dollars.

<comment><USER6> If copying the APIs is only valuable for compatibility, why did Google do it? Android isn't compatible with any Java apps.

<comment><USER5> It's compatible with many Java libraries and IDEs etc. It isn't compatible with Java apps because the UI framework has to be different on a phone. Porting Java apps thereby requires changing only a minority of things rather than everything.

It's like asking why you can write C programs on Windows even though it doesn't provide an X server.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> FYI, Oracle is pushing this agenda to squeeze Java shops in other places as well.

The tack they are taking is to define any computer that does "one specific thing" as an embedded device and ask you for $300+ per "device", plus some other lofty fees. ([http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/price- lists/java-...](http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/pricing/price-lists/java- embedded-price-list-1977272.pdf))

So, if you're using Java in a kiosk, ATM, media player, etc, they may be coming for you.

My guess is that this just spawns a mass migration to OpenJDK, but perhaps they trap enough Java shops that it's worth the effort?

<comment><USER8> My guess is this just spawns a mass migration away from Java altogether.

Not knowing when Oracle might decide to shake down your business is a massive incentive to use anything else.

<comment><USER9> Didn't I recently hear something about Google rebuilding Android to remove Java? Or am I totally off?

<comment><USER10> That would likely cost much more than this extortion, and still wouldn't save them.

<comment><USER11> More than 9 billion? Give 36,000 people $250,000 a year salary and you still haven't hit 9.2 billion. Pretty sure they could get it done in a year with 36,000 people.

<comment><USER12> 37 women cannot have one baby in one week.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Oracle should pay Google for using Java in Android and keeping the language somewhere around edge of hip and cool. I wonder how long it will be before Google flips to Go or JavaScript for Android.

<comment><USER14> I don't think anyone has used "hip and cool" and "Java" in the same sentence for at least 15 years (2001) and no amount of Android can fix that.

<comment><USER15> "Damn, that grotesque-looking android startled me and I spilled my cup of Java all over my hip, fortunately it was cool so I didn't get burnt".

<comment><USER15> This reminds me of that contest where people had to get the phrase "I smoke crack rocks" into a published academic paper, and the winner was something like "we burnt iodine (I) solution to observe its corrosive effect on stone and witnessed I smoke crack rocks".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Will miss groklaw badly. Followed the previous time almost entirely on groklaw.

<comment><USER17> What is Pamela Jones doing nowadays? I understand her decision to shutdown groklaw because of govt spying but I can't help but think that, overall, it was a net loss for everyone involved.

<comment><USER18> Yeah. Government spying is like that.

I miss PJ and Groklaw, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Google should have acquired Sun instead of buying dropcam/boston- dynamics/motorola and such.

<comment><USER20> How amazing would that have been? Zfs might have helped the world move forward a lot faster... Sigh...

Let's give Oracle 10 years from now to fade from relevance as yet another fucked by cloud vendor and Google can then orchestrate a hostile takeover.

<comment><USER19> To speed that up, just buy Postgresql and use that to smother both Oracle DB and to some extent, mysql. Defence only helps that much, offence can do it a lot faster on their own DB territory.

<comment><USER21> Better yet, buy EnterpriseDB that's actively targeting Oracle's market. Put a bunch of money into expanding it with conversion tools from Oracle to not Oracle API's it will use.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Dart is a very viable alternative to Java already for Android. See [https://flutter.io/](https://flutter.io/)

P.S. Dart actually has a Java-to-Dart converter hidden somewhere. I can't find the link, but the static analyzer was ported from Java to Dart using it. Perhaps they could expand that effort?

</comment><comment><USER23> This case seems unusual in the fact that the code in question was already free to use and fork under the terms of OpenJDK, so paying Oracle for a license was not the only alternative. How would one calculate damages relative to the scenario where Google simply used OpenJDK as they are doing now?

<comment><USER7> Maybe Google is doing things that the "Classpath Exception" doesn't cover, which would expose them to parts of of the GPL that don't work for them?

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Oracle has a legal department twice the size of its developing department

:-)

<comment><USER25> Related: [http://www.businessinsider.com/big-tech-org- charts-2011-6](http://www.businessinsider.com/big-tech-org-charts-2011-6)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> C# is such a nice language, and Microsoft has been making such strides toward openness and cross-platform with .NET lately.

Imagine if Microsoft granted Google a perpetual license to use C#.

<comment><USER14> Brainfuck probably has an equal chance of being selected as C#. The problem is more that the APIs and all of the existing apps. Google can't just wake up one morning and decide that everything will be now in language XYZ because there are literally millions of apps for Android which have been written in Java against Java APIs. C# would also be an unusual choice for a company that does zero(?) C# work.

<comment> V-2 Now it's too late, but unlike Brainfuck, Google did consider C# as an option, see my comment (sibling comment to yours)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I think replacement of Java in Android is coming slowly and likely without any help from Android team.

Looking at gomobile and CLs on golang-dev etc I feel Go support in Android is worked on by small focussed team rather than order from top management.

</comment><comment><USER28> If this teaches us anything, is that you should avoid as hard as you can, giving others rope, with which they can hang you. I avoid Java anywhere I can, so for me, Java is only for mobile apps on Android.

I also invite anyone reading this comment, to read the following story, which always comes to my mind in this sort of events: [http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt](http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=MacBasic.txt)

</comment><comment><USER29> That's the same amount they had thrown at Sun Microsystems.

<comment><USER30> actually a bit more since Sun cost Oracle about $7.4B.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I can't see this ending well for Oracle.

</comment><comment><USER32> 1\. Oracle's lawyers are idiots as they can't show it's same. For example run apache http client jar on android and java. It's same. Idiots.

2\. If Oracle's dumb lawyers win, I'm happy. I get paid a salary to work. Why should companies get code for free, why do they need me. Copying and violating a license is bad. Even GPL and other code I write, respect the license.

3\. To summarize, would you want Google to violate GPL?

</comment><comment><USER33> I really don't understand what Oracle's lawyers are thinking.

Yes, coming up with ever-more-creative theories about why Google owes Oracle might have some tactical advantages, but any victory in court on those terms would be pyrrhic.

It doesn't matter how many billions Google coughs up if the next phone call is IBM demanding the company for using SQL.

Aren't Oracle's lawyers looking past the next move? Are they that confident that their API arguments will lose? Do they really have that much faith in the hairs they're splitting between Google's API reuse and Oracle's?

Or is their advice being colored by all the follow-on legal work there will be because Oracle is going down this path?

</comment><comment><USER34> That might be legal but in my opinion not ethical.

</comment><comment><USER35> I just wished google would use C++ for Android. It's does away with all this nonsense. I'm looking forward to the day where I have to pay oracle for every android app download I get even if the app is free...

</comment><comment><USER36> Recently: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11376439](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11376439)

</comment><comment><USER37> Could someone with a legal background please explain what Oracle would have to prove to win this?

<comment><USER18> Disclaimer: I don't have a legal background.

If I understand correctly, Oracle would have to prove that Google's use of the Java API did not fall under the fair use exception in copyright law.

That is, if I write something, you can't publish it as your own. That's copyright. But there are exceptions within the law. One exception is fair use (others are criticism, parody, and there may be more, but fair use is the one in play in this case). Note that fair use was in the original trial, and the jury deadlocked on whether that was a valid defense for Google.

Below here, my understanding is less solid. But I _think_ that one category of fair use is interoperability. That is, if I have a copyright interface (like, say, an API), you can copy that API in order to interface to something. To what degree, and what the boundaries are, I'm not sure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Kotlin in Android looks promising.

<comment><USER14> Kotlin relies on the Java APIs and libs, so wouldn't really help.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> What's the argument that Google should pay Oracle? Is there something in the Java license?

Has Google's use of Java somehow damaged Oracle? Are they worse off now than they would be if Android were built on a different technology?

</comment><comment><USER40> afaik, the real issue is that the dalvik-vm is api compatible with oracle(sun)-jvm. iirc, api is not 'copyrightable' which seems to suggest that it might not be so good for oracle. but then again, cases like these depend a lot on proficiency of presiding judges. wasn't there an earlier judge, who learned some elementary programming while preparing for this case, and who ended up favoring google...

<comment><USER41> If it were api compatible Java Android wouldn't be the second coming of J++, where apparently thanks to some strange events it is ok for Google to fork Java, break WORA where even many Java 6 libraries cannot run on Android, not to mention about later versions, and some devs seem to think it is ok.

While with Microsoft everyone went out with their pitchforks.

Android Java is nothing more than Google's J++.

<comment><USER42> To refresh your memory: "The complaint charges Microsoft with trademark infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and inducing breach of contract."[1]

You probably know this, but Java-the-language is not the same as Java-the- platform (VM); Google only uses the language bit, not the runtime. They created their own runtime (Dalvik, and later ART) with its own bytecode format. What Microsoft did was implement an intentionally-incompatible JVM, hopefully you see the differences between Google and Microsoft's action (both technical and the reasoning behind the actions)

Edit: changed quote from wikipedia to [1], added reference.

1.[http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077055/soa/what-does- sun-s...](http://www.javaworld.com/article/2077055/soa/what-does-sun-s- lawsuit-against-microsoft-mean-for-java-developers-.html)

<comment><USER41> I know pretty much what happened.

The fact is that Google forked all of it.

You cannot use anything besides a pseudo Java 6.5 (the language), because there isn't support for all features available.

You cannot make use of the full Java SDK libraries, because Google's fork only supports cherry picked portions of the JDK, to the point that people have ported JDK classes to Android to close the gaps when porting Java code.

You cannot rely JVM features, because Dalvik/ART don't support everything that it is possible in a certified JVM like invokedynamic or more updated JNI versions.

The fact is that Google broke the Java eco-system, regardless how Google fanboys want to paint the picture that Google != Microsoft.

They tried to screw Sun and take advantage of their economic misfortune.

Luckily I don't suffer from Google colored glasses.

<comment><USER43> No Google "fanboy" (I actually hate the term, it's for immature 20 somethings to use), but Google didn't break the Java ecosystem IMHO.

The created a whole new language that happens to be mostly based on Java, for a very specific target OS where Java wasn't even available before.

The familiarity with Java is merely a bonus and boost for the adoption of Android programming from Java devs. It's wasn't meant (and it isn't) a jab at taking the Java development market (which is was Microsoft did -- going after the same people using Sun's Java, and for the same environments they used it in).

<comment><USER44> > The created a whole new language that happens to be mostly based on Java

That's the "extend" part of "embrace, extend, extinguish."

<comment><USER43> Not in the old MS-SUN wars sense.

Extend implies extending an existing X product.

Google made their own runtime, NOT calling it X, and NOT targeting the same platforms where Java was available. And of course this never had any impact on regular Java itself -- so no extinguish part. Nobody stopped using Java on the server or the client even, to use Google's version, because it's not offered at all there.

Their language not only didn't target existing Java deployments, but it was also created (and has always been constrained) for a new platform where Java never existed, and for a usage domain where Java had negligible presence (mobile development in post-iPhone smartphones).

And even if they HAD targeted normal Java deployments, it would have been totally find, and not "embrace, extend, extinguish" if it wasn't called Java. It would have been like MS' C#, not MS' altered Java.

If you don't pretend it's the same product (like MS did), then "embrace, extend, extinguish" is exactly how evolution works in most cases, including the natural one -- things get replicated and some crucial extra sauce is added, and if it's good, then the old things wither.

In fact, in this sense (where you mimic another opponent) "embrace, extend, extinguish" is exactly what projects like OpenOffice, Gnumeric, Gimp, etc intended to do.

But, as said above, this, while also fine, is totally different to what Google did.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Yet another reason I push updating the old Modula, Oberon, or Component Pascal languages instead of using C# or Java. Both are controlled by scheming, money- hungry companies that try to eliminate competition and innovation outside their firms. Best not to be tied to such companies at all.

</comment><comment><USER45> How the number $9.3 billion is derived?

<comment><USER46> Reported earnings from Android, one would guess.. though as Google mentions, this is likely _ALL_ they've earned from Android as a platform, nut _just_ the impact of those specific methods.</comment></comment>


Ask PG: Will the Yuri Milner deal affect which startups YC accepts? - <AUTHOR> One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that, after making such a significant financial commitment, Yuri Milner/DST will probably have some say in who gets picked for YC. Does this mean that the next batch of YC startups will be more closely aligned with those investors' goals? For example, DST has pledged to invest heavily in social media. Does that lead to more social startups in the next batch? Would YC still fund, say, a hardware or enterprise software startup? <comment><USER2> No, of course not.

I don't know if people realize this, but there is no actual deal between Ron/Yuri and YC. The deals are between them and the startups. We liked their plan of investing in all the startups, so we called a meeting for them to present it. But we don't have any control over which investments the startups accept. Anyone who wanted to do what Ron and Yuri have done could have done it at any time, whether YC liked the idea or not, simply by making the offer publicly.

While we're on the subject, Sequoia, which we do have a deal with (they're our biggest LP), also doesn't have any effect on the startups we pick.

<comment><USER3> What does "LP" mean? Does that mean an investment deal or advising deal?

How do you guys manage 40 startups in one batch? I am quite excited to read about them when they launch.

<comment><USER4> LP == Limited Partner (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_partnership>)

LPs are basically the investors in YC who remain mostly silent as to the operations of the firm. They participate in the proceeds and receive limited liability from the affairs of the business. Sequoia invested in YC, just as YC invests in startups.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It will probably change who _applies_ more than it will change who gets accepted. A lot of people reason that YCombinator is 6% of your company for ~$20k, are discouraged by the implicit valuation, assume (incorrectly) that the other parts of it probably aren't worth very much, and discard the idea of applying to YCombinator. This deal makes it obvious there's more value than the initial investment and makes application more compelling.

</comment><comment><USER6> pg, you've mentioned that you're happy with the development and think it's a boon for YC companies. Did Milner/DST approach you before hand to gauge your interest, or did they essentially do this independently?</comment>


Why Should Engineers and Scientists Be Worried About Color? - <AUTHOR> http://www.research.ibm.com/people/l/lloydt/color/color.HTM

<comment><USER2> Thanks for sharing mate :)</comment>


Cool Ad: Rube Goldberg machine destroys Dutch department store - <AUTHOR> http://producten.hema.nl/

<comment><USER2> Not Rube Goldberg, but also cool: <http://www.youtube.com/wariolandshakeit2008>

<comment><USER3> Whoever downvoted: You probably didn't watch long enough. It's not obvious that this ad is interesting until about halfway through.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Strange. Apparently the Dutch word for "boom box" is "ghettoblaster."

<comment><USER5> Yes, we have a lot of English words that aren't really English. Also, we don't have iced tea but we have icetea. In Dutch, it's common to give a product an English name to make it sound more interesting.

Also, there's quite some racism/political incorrectness hidden in our language and culture, but most (white?) people don't seem to realize it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's Rube, not Rude. Unless you're talking about the machine's actions, and not the name.

</comment><comment><USER7> Dupe from 450 days ago. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=123822>

</comment><comment><USER8> Does anyone know if HEMA is related to IKEA? The ones I've been to seem to borrow the design of IKEA, but focus on housewares instead of furniture.

The similarity seems too close to be unintentional.

<comment><USER5> HEMA is Dutch, IKEA is Swedish. Although they share a similar clean design and they both provide quality products for low prices, I don't think they're related at all.</comment></comment>


Moving your Contacts and Calendar Away from Google - <AUTHOR> http://www.flailingmonkey.com/2013/03/26/moving-contacts-calendar-google/ <comment><USER2> This seems mighty kneejerk-y. A duplicaton issue causes your contacts to disappear, therefore you should move your contacts and calendar away from a service that probably has better engineers, better backup, better redundancy, and better uptime than any one of us could possibly muster, and onto a somewhat immature product with worse functionality and integration which is by no means immune to the same kind of problem?

Yeah.. see, I don't think the author has thought their cunning plan all the way through.

I understand the anti-google sentiment is at an all time high after the Reader shutdown fiasco, but let's stay rational, here!

<comment><USER3> What about Google shutting down the open standard for syncing contact and calendar data across platforms?

I don't ask this as a form of "anti-Google sentiment," but as a legitimate question. The announcement that they would be phasing out ActiveSync support at the end of last year coupled with the announcement just made that they were doing the same for CalDAV/CardDav (when they announced the end of Reader) indicate they're "silo-ing" the service somewhat. Unless I've missed something, it's still not clear that iOS/iCal calendars are going to sync with Google's unless they "whitelist" Apple.

It's not a "cunning plan," it's self-preservation and keeping your stuff working or at the least not being at the mercy of a commercial concern who demonstrates a willingness to break it even for _paying_ customers.

<comment><USER2> >It's not a "cunning plan," it's self-preservation

Fair enough, and I can see the value in keeping a local backup just for redundancy and convenience purposes (being locked out of my Google account for whatever reason would _suck_ ), but using it as your daily driver? Ehhhhhhh....

As far as shutdown fears, though? Calendar, Contacts, and Gmail are the core- est of the core products. They're tied directly into the Android ecosystem as well. Reader was more or less a niche product.

Google isn't going to shut down any of the holy three applications which make up the entire backbone of their mobile OS's PIM functionality. Any such fears are completely irrational.

<comment><USER4> Are you really sure about calendar being a core product?

Because the userbase size (without knowing what it actually is) probably isn't all too different from that of reader.

It will probably be around forever as a part of google apps, but the free calendar for everybody might eventually face the chopping block.

<comment><USER5> As part of google apps, it's a mediocre solution. It's not good for collaborating with people outside your organization (clients, patients, whatever else ends in -ients) but it's _just good enough_ to prevent me from going with a hosted Exchange solution or to go back to administering our own infrastructure. I suspect it's prioritized to remain at that level.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> So the actual article title is 'Moving your contacts and calendar away from Google', not 'Move your contacts and calendar away from Google' as it was posted here. Less of an instruction/warning than might be expected, and more of a how-to guide.

<comment><USER7> I came here to say the same thing. The two titles are actually completely different topics (ha)!

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Nice URL and _"Error establishing a database connection"_. I smell Wordpress.

Here's a cached version: [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.flailingmonkey.com%2F2013%2F03%2F26%2Fmoving- contacts-calendar- google%2F&oq=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.flailingmonkey.com%2F2013%2F03%2F26%2Fmoving- contacts-calendar-google%2F&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

<comment><USER9> Cached by Google, no less.

<comment><USER10> Not bad for an "advertising company".

<comment><USER11> How does the way back machine and other sites compare to google cache?

<comment><USER12> In my experience, other sources tend to have significantly better caching (google's don't even have images), (archive.org) multiple versions, but way way slower to pick up new content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I like ownCloud but it is very immature.

I mean it looks very snazzy right when you first install it and start to use it, but has a lot of little issues hidden under the surface.

Couple of examples: Randomly deleting files because it got confused. Infinite loops. Essentially unusable on Windows servers (don't even try). etc.

As I said, I like OwnCloud, and I think it has a very bright future ahead of it. But it isn't "there" yet. I'd never use it in an enterprise in its current state.

<comment><USER14> That's discomforting, because I just installed it. I don't really need or want the filesharing bits, but a shared family calendar has been a holy grail for my family for a while now, and this seemed to be the quickest and closest way of doing it cross-platform.

<comment><USER15> > _a shared family calendar has been a holy grail for my family for a while > now_

Out of curiosity, what's wrong with clicking the "Share" button on an iCal, sorry, iCloud Calendar? My family (incl those on Windows) finds this works well.

<comment><USER14> I suppose nothing other than I didn't know that existed. I'd fall back on the old "I like owning my data," but I will take ease of setup for a company I trust. So, looking in to that tonight.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In software development term, this is probably an over engineering. Spend all the effort to setup your own data cloud before it becomes a fact that you really need it, that is, Google decides to change their cloud service so that it's no longer usable to you. Of course you could argue that what if one day Google simply disable the data exporting feature without any notice, in that case you would have no time to migrate. I think that risk is low enough for me to live with.

<comment><USER17> Google's service is already problematic in that it compromises my privacy and the privacy of my contacts. I'd rather not share my schedule with Google, and I feel uncomfortable putting additional information in my contacts knowing that it will be synced to them. I've certainly never been given permission by my friends to share their home address with Google or any other company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Is there something like ownCloud that uses Python/PostgreSQL? I don't really want to pollute my server with MySQL/PHP.

<comment><USER19> This type of mentality is poisonous. You're not "polluting" your server. It doesn't add anything to the discussion; all it does is troll and set up flame- wars.

There are other good reasons to want something written in your own pet language (e.g. "I want to modify it". "I don't want to learn how to admin MySQL", even), but just claiming "pollution" isn't a good one IMO.

<comment><USER20> Why the wording wasn't great, it is a valid concern. If you already have a server running Postgres, then maintaining a separate MySQL install really is a pain, especially when it comes to being up to date on security.

<comment><USER19> Which is fine. It's the idea that software can "pollute" is absurd. Give reasons and arguments, not slander.

Already having a python/postgres stack is a valid reason to want a piece of software that runs on it. Just saying php/mysql "pollute" is a terrible mindset.

It's like saying "I won't pollute my mind with German" instead of "I have no use for German in my everyday life". One is very trollish, the other is a valid point.

<comment><USER5> I think "pollute" conveys the idea much better than the German example. Yes, it can create an emotional conflict, as you've demonstrated.

However, I would say that adding PHP and MySQL to a public server just increased the attack surface as well as operations management overhead. In my eyes, that is an increase in risk/cost/etc. for that server. That justifies "pollute", "infect", "degrade", etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> One of the problems with using a self-hosted alternative like this is the fact that Google open up a lot of their services through APIs which other applications then consume. A web app I wrote a couple of years ago is one example (meetingShed). This easy integration with other apps opens up a lot of possibilities, but is there an alternative with ownCloud? It would be really interesting to see if a solution could be developed to expose self-hosted services (dynamically located) through a publicly accessible API (statically located).

<comment><USER22> Can't read the article right now, but for contacts and calendars we have standard public APIs: CardDAV and CalDAV. Too bad Google just discontinued the latter, weirdly enough just a few months after finally supporting the former.

<comment><USER23> Unless something has changed recently, there isn't much information about Google's CardDAV implementation. I had to find a reference on a mailing list for a CardDAV implementation to even figure out what Google's URL structure looked like.

I couldn't figure out a way to list all contact lists. You had to know the name of the list and use it in the URL. Even at that, you can only access contacts in "My Contacts" or other groups. There's (seemingly) no way to access "All Contacts".

CardDAV is 'supported,' but not very well. It's definitely a second-class citizen.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> "Click "Advanced" and select your database options. A MySQL DB will be way faster than a SQLite DB."

Do you really think you can really notice the microsecond that MySQL will be faster than SQLite? We are talking about a database that is going to host what, maybe 5 megabytes worth of data?

We are talking about calendars and contacts here, this is not stuff that you will sync every second, and will not contain large amounts of records.

Hosting this stuff in an SQLite database makes things like backup and security a whole lot easier. You don't really need a complicated database server just to store your phone numbers...

<comment><USER5> Some people have the pathological habit of creating meeting requests and attaching 500KB+ spreadsheets, project plans, Word docs, etc.

It's best when they send it as a recurring appointment and then send an "updated" version in a separate email.

<comment><USER24> Still the performance of the database is going to be negligible if you take the network (probably wifi/cellular) and mostly background syncing into account.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> While it's patent/licensing encumbered, I still prefer ActiveSync based solutions, just because they do good push for iOS/Android, are easy to manage, give you "free" lightweight MDM functionality, etc.

There are a few open source ActiveSync tools (which may be in violation of Microsoft IP), but I just use a commercial one (for work). Still thinking of screwing with the free ones for a personal server vs. strictly IMAP.

<comment><USER26> Do you mind citing a stable open source ActiveSync solutions ?

<comment><USER25> z-push is probably the best.

<comment><USER26> Thanks. I'll try it soon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I moved to <http://www.atmailcloud.com> and have been really pleased with it.

It's $2 per account, you can host multiple domains under one control panel, it has email, contacts, and a calendar under one roof, and offers iPhone/iPad provisioning as well. You can also create subadmin accounts if you want to delegate responsibility for a certain domain to someone else.

<comment><USER28> Thanks for the info. I'd happily for a service like this than rely on Google's "free" stuff that they might the plug on any time they want to push their useless G+ crap.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I've self-hosted my calendar using DAViCal (<http://www.davical.org/>) since I got my first iPod Touch. My wife and I use it to host shared calendars that we access from our phones. I run it on a cheap box I own but it would be just as easy to host it on an inexpensive VPS. Backup is a Postgres dump taken daily stored locally on the server and rsync'd to two other machines in separate physical locations. It took a couple hours to set up but has been trouble and attention-free for years.

</comment><comment><USER30> Any similar setup that uses IOS phone instead of Android out there? I am tired of contacts going missing from IOS and Google or 4 copies of all my contacts showing up in both IOS and Gmail. I lost all my contacts in IOS when I upgraded to the iPhone 5. Then I had a bunch of contacts that I did not want in my contacts populate my IOS contacts when I linked my Facebook account on my IPhone 5. It is even worse on my Windows 8 notebook as I have 5-6 duplicate contacts for each single contact as it imports from IOS, Outlook, and Gmail.

<comment><USER31> Windows 8 allows you to merge contacts. Once you clean up your contacts on Windows, it's pretty good. Well, at least, has been for me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Loosing contacts can happen. Just this past week my father-in-laws contact info disappeared from Google contacts. This isn't the first time this has happened to me either.

<comment><USER8> Wtf, I've never had this happen. I would instantly stop using any service where this happened (especially where it's not possible to decently contact support).

<comment><AUTHOR> I can happen if you have a large amount of contacts. I had 500 before this happened to me the first time.

<comment><USER33> It also happened to me dozen of times, and it was nothing to do with google. Just plain random touchscreen messing in the jeans pocket.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Thanks for the article! I didn't hear about ownCloud (or similar projects) before, I'm already reading manual (<http://doc.owncloud.org/server/5.0/admin_manual/>) and will be installing ownCloud on my VPS today. I had doubts about giving Google (or any other company) so much of my data (not only emails, but schedule, contacts etc.) - now I found a great solution. I love HN.

</comment><comment><USER35> What you're looking for is syncml: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SyncML> the wikipedia page lists various clients and servers. On Linux (well, ubuntu at least) sync-ui will sync evolution with a syncml server. After a lot of searching for solutions to use with my n900 I chose memotoo as a provider. There is an preconfigured syncml android client for memotoo.

</comment><comment><USER36> Nice idea. I have just gone through the minor hassle of switching my blog off of Blogger and relegating Gmail to my backup/secondary email service - all in the spirit of controlling my own stuff. I only calendar share with my wife, so setting up something like this is probably something I will do also.

Any JVM based open source projects? I would rather not deal with PHP.

<comment><USER37> Not sure that's a smart move, if you care about your data. Do you think you can achieve better uptime and reliability than Google does with their engineers and servers and distributed data centres? I mean, it sounds cool and everything to do it yourself, but if you just dump all your data onto your local server (or EC2 instance), it's just a centralised storage that can fail any time, not a "cloud" any more.

<comment><USER36> Except that I use cron jobs to save my mongodb and postgres databases to S3.

The only thing I lose is perhaps being offline fr several hours if one of my servers goes south.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The only thing really stopping me from migrating to my own platform is email. I've had many terrible experiences and heard many horror stories about running mail servers, I just don't want to deal with it.

Suggestions welcome.

<comment><USER38> Mmm. I'm sure people have had bad experiences. However I run my own mail server (and no others who also do) for myself, my company and a few other domains I host with almost no effort. It's true I have fewer than a dozen users, but I'm sure most people would be the same way.

I just upgraded it this weekend, otherwise I haven't actually had to touch it in the 5 years since I originally set it up. Support ends for the Ubuntu LTS release it was based on next month, and I chose to migrate to new server software (dovecot) without much difficulty at all. I think anyone moderately skilled with sysadmin tendencies could manage it.

A good guide is here (though I am not running the described spam or virus filtering, and neither am I using EC2 myself): [http://www.exratione.com/2012/05/a-mailserver-on- ubuntu-1204...](http://www.exratione.com/2012/05/a-mailserver-on- ubuntu-1204-postfix-dovecot-mysql/) \- there are many other guides online.

But I confess I personally have a gmail account that I use most of all. I receive lots of mail daily, and none of the open-source clients (webmail or otherwise) have managed to compare in terms of usability. Priority Inbox is the most recent example of something that I would struggle to live without.

<comment><USER19> What about other people's spam filters? That's the biggest problem I've heard about is being blacklisted because of being an unknown sender or on some VPS service or something like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> If Google just made us pay for this service (individually without having to create a Google Apps account) all our feers _might_ go away.

Why are business SO reluctant for a standards "pay for what you get" business model?

</comment><comment><USER40> Nice article. People should realize it is not a good idea to leave data in the hands of third parties with commercial interests.

On the other hand, I see only technical people being able to escape such data traps.

</comment><comment><USER41> What can we do for translated versions? I'm not a dev but my father uses google calendar a lot because it's easy and intuitive but he knows nothing about english...

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually, you can contribute to ownCloud translations at: <https://www.transifex.com/projects/p/owncloud/>

<comment><USER41> Thanks for that! I see it's almost 100% for pt-BR! awesome :) I'll definetly try it soon

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Calendar is a bit harder, but storing contacts seems like an eminently solvable problem.

Especially if you require dropbox.

What am I missing? Phone support?

</comment><comment><USER43> this post is the worst.. A) never really had contacts "disappear", although i definitely encounter conflicts with weird results (kind of expected).

B) use a shared host (justhost.com. lol) and php over google's infrastructure? fat chance this guy is competent enough to know what the fuck he's in for down the road..

</comment><comment><USER44> Personally I use the free version of Zarafa for that. In any case I know who to blame if things go south.

</comment><comment><USER45> Remember Kiko?

<comment><USER46> Were they a startup that was killed the moment Google calendar started?

<comment><USER47> <http://areallybadidea.com/selling-kiko>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> <https://fruux.com/> is a great alternative.

</comment><comment><USER49> Site is down.

will this solution sync with my iPhone?

<comment><USER50> ownCloud does sync with iPhone, yes. I am still basically on Google myself, but did a trial install of ownCloud and it worked pretty much instantly. Just add as CalDAV and CardDAV accounts on the iPhone, the correct addresses to use is shown in ownCloud somewhere.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Android gained popularity because it was tied to Calendar and Gmail. These two services were pretty pervasive already, and so became the default in Android. When that happened, those two services became crucial to Android.

The fear that Contacts and Calendar will go away like Reader did (or, rather, will) is irrational. Reader _barely_ had a mobile client version of it. With Google reigning in the branding on Android and requiring that it be tied even tighter to Google services, Gmail and Calendar became a dependency of Google's mobile OS.</comment>


Built it and they didn't come. - <AUTHOR> How many people have built something and no was is using it? On the flip side, did you come up with and idea only to change it or scrap it because you talked to customers first? <comment><USER3> We first spoke to prospective users about germ.io and everyone "felt" the problem (managing ideas and building on them till they get to execution) - <USER2> they thought it was too big a problem to be solved through software. But at that point we were only looking to see if the problem we were trying to solve was real - not fit our solution in.

Once you know you're solving a problem that exists, you can't figure out fit by just talking to people - you need to throw out a (crappy) version and let real people play. We don't have the time/ $$s to spend months and THEN know we don't have a fit. So decided to roll out an MDP in pre-beta cycles called "Omega's" (story: blog.germ.io/wtfs-an-omega/). In the last week, we've had over 800 signups and 200 users we've opened access to, so I guess the challenge is to build -> ship -> iterate.

The family and friends you talk to before you have a prototype are the people who'd _tell_ you they think your stuff is cool, but would never take their wallets out if they weren't doing you a personal favor. Their word and opinion isn't really worth much.

</comment><comment><USER4> Happens all the time, unfortunately. Now, whenever I work on a project, the very first thing I think about is how the distribution is going to work, and then build the app around that.

The interesting thing I've found is that in the successful apps I've worked on, distribution has been 90% of the effort, and the actual app people see is like 10%. So in a way distribution _is_ the app.

</comment><comment><USER5> The latter.

Ideally you should always talk to potential users/customers first to validate if you you idea truly is one that solves a genuine problem (ie problem/solution fit).

Only then go and build an MVP and test it with these same people - who can then also refer other interested people (ie product/market fit).

Here you will truly validate the need for the product and/or pivot to something else that can get to product/market fit.

Then, and only then should you look to do things like marketing to get the product in front of people.

This is the lean startup approach.

Following (something like) this significantly raises the odds of success. Building it in the hope of someone finding it/using it is a waste of time/money/energy.

</comment><comment><USER6> Yeh, I built Firework Flare ([https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/firework- flare/id513766705?m...](https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/firework- flare/id513766705?mt=8)), an iPad game, in 2011-12.

It was my first venture into iOS development, and I used it as a learning tool. The idea was one I had for awhile: to blend two cool games.

It gets about 1-10 downloads a day. I never did any marketing. I was quite naive in my thinking; it's almost as if I had to make that mistake to fully grasp it though.

</comment><comment><USER7> Could you explain a bit - users used it and then stopped using it? Or, nobody discovered what you built?

If earlier, did you try to find out why users stopped using it?

If later, how do you expect me to find this great product that I don't exists yet. You didn't even provide a link here.

Famously, before Ford built cars, he asked users and they said they wanted faster (horse) carriages (cars were too expensive, clumsy and broke down all the time). Thankfully, Ford didn't set out to make carriages or the horses faster.

</comment><comment><USER8> Recently I (with my friend) created this tool called reedme.in which is getting like 70 pageviews / day. Excluding our pageviews. It's live : [http://reedme.in](http://reedme.in)

We don't have any idea what to do right now, so we made it open source and we're focusing on our main project.

<comment><USER9> Nice - make a Firefox Extension and I'll be a daily user.

<comment><USER8> Will do. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I learnt the hard-way that pre-marketing is an absolute must. Start by engaging with folks in your space and your potential audience/customer base. Blogging and starting a email newsletter are obvious examples but there's a ton of other digital marketing techniques you can use.

</comment><comment><USER10> > Happens all the time, unfortunately. Now, whenever I work on a project, the > very first thing I think about is how the distribution is going to work, and > then build the app around that.

This. Make something people want is the first step, then you need to figure out the distribution.

</comment><comment><USER11> Pretty much anyone that has ever built something has been there. You either built something in search of a problem (i.e., something no one wanted) or failed to reach the audience that did want it (a marketing issue).

</comment><comment><USER12> As someone who is currently working on a project it is something at the back of your mind.

That being said I think if you have done the research and know there is a market you should have no reason not to have users.

</comment><comment><USER13> sourceforge is full of cool shit only a handful of people use... This is why you need a salesperson... the pet rock sold 1M units in 8 months, why because people thought it was cool. Most stuff never gets any thought because dev guys think they can create stuff without sales guys to pitch it. Doesn't work like that... If your light is hidden under a bushel, it doesn't it make it any less of a light... it means you don't know how to get the bushel off.

</comment><comment><USER9> This is one of those things I'm afraid of whenever I start a project.</comment>