Why Rust is not a mature programming language - <AUTHOR> https://codecs.multimedia.cx/2020/09/why-rust-is-not-a-mature-programming-language/ <comment><USER2> The traits section seems to be more a problem of the author seeing object and classes instead. Calling them traits and not classes should have been enough, IMO, to dispel that, but it is a common mistake so fair enough. You should think of them, as the compiler devs do, as Prolog code interpreted at compile time.

Traits are sets. "Impl" means a type, or any type described by the constraints, is in that set.

        trait A {}
        struct S;
        impl A for S {} // S is in A
        impl<T> A for Vec<T> where T: A {} // Vecs of A are also in A

Type constraints are a way to use those sets to specify which types are allowed in which places. The compiler then tries to prove that the types you do use are in fact in the sets you say they have to be in.

That's it.

<comment><USER2> On reflection I think they were referring to both traits and trait objects instead ("Call tables"). I don't know what more you can ask for than the Rust Book's entry on trait objects. Not sure how you get "immature language" from this page:

[https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch17-02-trait-objects.html](https://doc.rust- lang.org/book/ch17-02-trait-objects.html)

<comment><USER3> Trait objects are kind of a pain and there are some improvements that could be made there.

Here's a random example: if you want a trait object with more than one trait, that only works today if one of the two is an auto trait: [https://play.rust- lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&editio...](https://play.rust- lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=49039ad3198d4162eddc932c98a0f50b)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Once I regularly see the bashing of a language I know that language is generally accepted and therefore mature.

<comment><USER5> Counterpoint : V-lang

<comment><USER6> Wow, first I've heard of this. Looks neat.

Let me save others 6s [https://vlang.io](https://vlang.io)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> No real argument about this, seems to be essentially true. I just have never cared about anything in this article while writing Rust. The maturity I care far more about is "if I want a library is it available, documented, api stable, and relatively bug free", which Rust does _okay_ at.

<comment><USER8> The lack of a language spec hurts, but it's gotten better. E.g. there used to be no formal rules about what was OK to do in an unsafe block. There was a general idea that you shouldn't use different mutable references to the same thing at the same time, but in practice it was hard to tell what that really meant. Then they came up with Stacked Borrows, which is a formal specification for exactly that problem. Miri can even interpret your program and dynamically check that you don't violate Stacked Borrows.

The Go language spec is really awesome, but the core language is so much simpler, so it was probably a lot easier to come up with. E.g. if the spec included every detail about escape analysis, pragmas, assembly, and cgo, it would be significantly longer and more difficult to maintain.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> In spite of its currently growing adoption, my prediction is that Rust will be replaced in a foreseeable future.

Rust brought a novel idea to the landscape of programming languages. The borrow checker is a great invention, and a great contribution to making applications more secure.

The language itself is way too complicated. The learning curve is steep. Improvements are made (e.g. lifetime elision) but they don't flatten the curve.

Macros are very hard to debug and understand. Which is even more of an issue when they are used by dependencies and something goes wrong. Error messages don't help. Macros are powerful but can hide too much magic. Plus, they are a language of their own.

"Why doesn't have this structure any methods?" "Oh, they are hidden in traits, provided by other crates, themselves leveraging other traits from other crates". "Still, it doesn't compile. Why?" "Oh, because of that generic that requires traits from yet another crate that are only available when some Cargo features has been enabled". Once again, this is difficult to follow and debug.

Zero-cost abstractions are great, but in Rust, they are overused. This makes the language less accessible, but also constantly causes dependency issues due to incompatible versions.

Rust is powerful but it is not optimized for developer happiness. Fighting the compiler brings anger, not joy. Sure, the compiler may have good reasons to complain. But as a developer, I'm happier and more productive when code immediately runs, even if that means having to fix bugs later. This is from a happiness view, not from a security perspective. But eventually, happiness turns into productivity.

It's too late to fix this. But now that Rust demonstrated that memory safety and speed were not incompatible, future system languages will feel obligated to provide the same properties, maybe by using mechanisms similar to Rust.

So, my prediction is that Rust will slowly be replaced by new safe languages that will be more accessible, more productive, more stable, and bring novel ideas of their own. But Rust will have made history no matter what.

<comment><USER10> You are, of course, right in many of your points, but we have seen time and time again that languages are successful for other reasons. It usually is a matter of opportunity (i.e. it comes with a mature library that solves a hot problem), not design. However, I am also unsure if rust is in the right spot to gain wide traction or if it will stay in the Tier 2 of enthusiast, but not commercially adopted programming languages, like many other great languages of their times.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Everyone is going to have a different definition of "mature", and that's fine :) Obviously lots of respect for Kostya. I do think that framing these as "maturity" is a good framing, that is, fundamentally, he's right. A lot of this stuff has to do with Rust being so young, and in the future, it will be taken care of. I would argue that this is a significantly _higher_ maturity requirement than most people actually need, and that Rust is more mature in other places and so may be for other people, but that's a different thing.

My take on the state of these issues:

> Rust does not have a formal language specification... I understand that > adding new features is more important than documenting them but this is > lame.

Most languages do not. It also really depends on what you mean by "formal."

It's not about being more important, it's that we value stability _very_ strongly, and don't have the ability to document things with the guarantees we'd prefer. You might call it... not mature enough yet :)

There's been a bunch of movement here, I'm excited to see it continue to develop!

> Function/method calling convention. ... I'm told that newer versions of the > compiler handle it just fine but the question still stands

The objection here doesn't have to do with calling conventions, actually, this is about "two-phase borrowing," described in a series of blog posts ending here [http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2017/03/01/nest...](http://smallcultfollowing.com/babysteps/blog/2017/03/01/nested- method-calls-via-two-phase-borrowing/)

I believe this will get even better with polonius [https://nikomatsakis.github.io/rust-belt- rust-2019/](https://nikomatsakis.github.io/rust-belt-rust-2019/)

Regarding argument evaluation order, technically it is not yet documented [https://github.com/rust-lang/reference/issues/248](https://github.com/rust- lang/reference/issues/248) but has been left-to-right for basically forever [https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-expression-order- of-e...](https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/rust-expression-order-of- evaluation/2605/34) and I actually thought that it _was_ documented as such. I would expect this to shake out the exact same way as struct field destruction order, that is, something that's been one way for a long time and so we wouldn't change it even if maybe it's a good idea to.

> Traits... the problem is not me being stupid but rather the lack of formal > description on how it's done and why what I want is so hard. Then I'd > probably at least be able to realize how I should change my code to work > around the limitations.

Upcasting/downcasting is rarely used, and so has less love, generally, it's true.

> First of all, bootstrapping process is laughably bad.

So, Kostya acknowledges

> Of course it's a huge waste of resources for rather theoretical problem but > it may prove beneficial for compiler design itself.

Which is I think the way most feel about it. _However_ , there is _some_ desire to improve this, for other, related reasons. [https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/12/rust- in-2021.html](https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/12/rust-in-2021.html) talks about some of them.

> Then there's LLVM dependency.

While this stuff is all true, we wouldn't be where we are without it. Everything has upsides and downsides.

> And finally there's a thing related to the previous problem. Rust has poor > support for assembly.

He mentions asm; we're almost there! It took some time because it is not a simple problem. At the end of this, we'll have _better_ support than C or C++ according to his metrics; these are not part of the language standard, so give his previous comments about maturity, I find this one a _little_ weird, but it is what it is. :)

> There's also one problem with Rust std library that I should mention too. > It's useless for interfacing OS.

Yes, the intention of the standard library is to be _portable_ , so that's not really a goal.

> But the proper solution would be to support at least OS-specific syscall() > in std crate

This may in fact be a good idea! I'm not sure how much use it would actually get.

<comment><USER11> I agree in general, but I do feel like one counterargument needs to be brought up:

> Most languages do not (have a formal specification)

Most languages also aren't trying to replace languages that do. C and C++ are both languages that Rust, afaik rather officially, aims to replace in some areas. It can be a great language like so many others, but if it wants to replace these old giants, it needs to have a proper spec, maybe in the form of an ISO standard. Of course that will come when its time, but thats a good indicator of when a language can compete as an answer to the question of "what tech will we use for our next big, important and highly specialized project?".

This is the pertect indicator of it not being as mature as what it aims to replace.

<comment><USER12> I'd argue that when Rust is considered as an alternative in one of the domains that C and C++ are prevalent today, the fact that it does not have a formalized spec does actually hurt it today. For example: NVidia evaluated various languages to adopt for their "Safe Autonomous Driving" project. Rust was considered but didn't win. One of the reasons was literally:

"Does not have a formalized spec"

See [1] page 35.

[1] [https://www.slideshare.net/AdaCore/securing-the-future-of- sa...](https://www.slideshare.net/AdaCore/securing-the-future-of-safety-and- security-of-embedded-software)

<comment><USER11> The nvidia thing is part of why I wrote my comment, too, yeah. Was really eye opening to the requirements that some big players have

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's not loading for me, so here's an archive: [https://web.archive.org/web/20200919120933/https://codecs.mu...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200919120933/https://codecs.multimedia.cx/2020/09/why- rust-is-not-a-mature-programming-language/)

<comment><USER14> The first comment is amusingly prescient:

> Aw, dang it. This post is going to get out and cause this server to crash > again, isn't it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Anyone interested in formal language specification should check out k-framework! This space is pretty mind blowing.

[http://www.kframework.org/index.php/Main_Page](http://www.kframework.org/index.php/Main_Page)

</comment><comment><USER16> Adding a few more things to Steve's response:

> _Rust does not have a formal language specification […] A proper mature > language (with 1.0 in its version) should have a formal specification_

Python doesn't have a formal specification. It doesn't even have a _semi_ -formal specification. I would consider Python a proper mature language. (… even if it doesn't have 1.0 in its version!)

Some recently-published work in the general direction of formally specifying Rust behaviour: [https://people.mpi- sws.org/~jung/thesis.html](https://people.mpi-sws.org/~jung/thesis.html)

> _In Rust it's undefined because there's no format specification to tell you > even that much._

That seems to me an very unreasonable definition of "undefined". By that token, _nothing_ in Rust is defined, which renders the term "undefined" devoid of meaning and completely useless. Rather, the implementation defines the specification, which, yes, is weaker than a formal specification, but not _that_ much weaker. (Rust's stability guarantees do allow it to retcon, but only if safety is on the line, or sometimes if you can convince people that affected code probably doesn't exist, or was wrong anyway. Changing argument order evaluation in this sort of case would break plenty of real-life code, and so will never happen.)

> _[…] traits […] the problem is not me being stupid but rather the lack of > formal description on how it's done and why what I want is so hard._

I disagree that the lack of a formal description of how it's done is the problem, though such a description would certainly help. I feel that the real problem here is that you're trying to treat traits as something that they're not, trying to do things that you're used to doing in dynamic/GC languages that just don't map to Rust because of it being a thin abstraction over what can be fastest. Upcasting and downcasting trait objects is _really_ rare, because other constraints of the language make them just not very useful operations. The main reason you want those operations in other languages is inheritance, not interfaces, and Rust doesn't do inheritance, and traits aren't inheritance.

> _rustc problems_

The bootstrapping process is not laughably bad, the developers have merely prioritised their own ergonomics rather than pandering to making proving a theoretical problem false easier. Still more, they've prioritised actually _using_ new functionality, which helps make sure that it both works properly, and is the _right_ new functionality. So I find two or three good reasons for doing it the way they have, and one weak reason not to do it that way.

The LLVM dependency: I feel that this complaint is more about there being only a single Rust backend, rather than about the LLVM dependency. This point is then debatable. Yeah, Rust would be _more_ mature if it had more backends (or better, more full implementations), but does having only a single implementation make it immature? Eh. Plenty of mature languages functionally have but a single implementation.

———

I definitely consider Rust not yet mature, I just don't think that most of the reasons in this article are legitimate. I _would_ focus in no small part on documentation, just not requiring _formality_ of specification or documentation before I'd consider those parts mature. But note that I said that I'd consider _Rust_ not yet mature, rather than the Rust _programming language_. Because in most regards I _do_ actually consider the programming language itself mature, and a lot of its tooling (more than popular languages thrice its age), though there are definitely still gaps in both. But the ecosystem _around_ the programming language, that's the area where it's not yet mature. Rust is much more complex than many languages (e.g. Go), so it takes a lot longer to fill in the spaces in library availability, and there are many very significant gaps that haven't been filled yet. GUI, for example, is very immature space. Audio is… eh, it's getting somewhere, but I wouldn't call it _mature_. Web is approaching maturity for some sorts of tasks, but is not generally mature.

<comment><USER3> > The bootstrapping process is not laughably bad, the developers have merely > prioritised their own ergonomics

Ironically, I would disagree here; the language developers have _not_ prioritized their own ergonomics, which is why building rustc is a big pain.

I do agree that making it easier to bootstrap _in that way_ would not necessarily help them... there is a sense in which you're right, I just found the framing kind of funny, since I'd argue the same point but for completely opposite reasons.

<comment><USER16> Building rustc may be a bit of a pain (big pain? It's more than five years since I last built rustc from source, but I don't recall having any particular difficulty with it), but I was speaking specifically of the bootstrapping part, which I don't feel is at all terrible. Specifically targeting version _n − 1_ means that you can adopt new language features, which you couldn't if you were targeting version 1.0 forever, or writing it in another language. _That's_ what I was meaning by prioritising their own ergonomics—allowing them to use new features. With that clarification, I'm interested in whether you agree or disagree. You've been a lot closer to the action than I have.

<comment><USER3> Yes, I do think you're right about this generally, which is what I was getting at at the end.

This doesn't have to be all-or-nothing, though, if you check out matklad's post I linked, he points to a version where the standard library still gets to use unstable features, but the compiler does not, which is an interesting hybrid that may retain the best of both.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I find it odd that inline assembly is considered the sign of a mature systems language when not even all C/C++ compilers have it (for example, the last I checked, Microsoft's x86-64 C++ compiler lacks it)

</comment><comment><USER18> Well the server for this page seems to be dead. I wonder what language it's written in? ;)

<comment><USER3> Looks like Wordpress to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The problem with this article is that the first example is wrong, as in it compiles fine. I could even tell without running it that it would compile.

Therefore the article as a whole cannot be taken seriously, and reflecting that I stopped reading it immediately after.

<comment><USER3> It used to not work, and it does acknowledge that it does work now. You missed that since you bounced, which is why it's a good idea to fully digest a thing before deciding if it's terrible or not.

<comment><USER20> Let's be real, life is too short to read every article on the internet before deciding if it's worth your time.

<comment><USER3> It depends on your goals, and yes, I do agree that life is too short to read everything. But if you don't have the time to fully digest what's written, you also don't have the time to trash talk it, in my humble opinion. That's what I mean by "deciding if it's terrible or not," that is, I see a personal distinction between "did not pique my interest enough to bother" and "this is actively bad." You have to actually read the whole thing to make the latter determination, IMHO.

<comment><USER19> Well in all fairness, I might've kept reading had it not been for that blatant factual error.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Pragmatic Guide To JavaScript Now Available - <AUTHOR> http://pragprog.com/titles/pg_js/pragmatic-guide-to-javascript

<comment><USER3> "wrote Prototype and script.aculo.us in 2007" and yet <http://script.aculo.us/> claims Thomas Fuchs wrote it. What gives?

EDIT: it seems they mean the book "Prototype and script.aculo.us" - <USER2> one of their pragmatic guides.. I think.</comment>


Show HN: Minsc, a scripting langauge for Bitcoin contracts - <AUTHOR> https://min.sc/ <comment><AUTHOR> The source code (in Rust with LALRPOP) is available on GitHub: [https://github.com/shesek/minsc](https://github.com/shesek/minsc)

The website has some example scripts and a compiler that you can experiment with.

Happy to answer questions!</comment>


What is the Chinese language? - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/12/chinese

<comment><USER2> I'm not sure why this is posted here (ChinesePod linked to it recently as well). It seems to be nothing more than a very long thread of heated arguments from people who are mostly undeterred by their profound ignorance of linguistics. If you're interested in this subject, there's a much better discussion here: <http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1211></comment>


Intentionally blank page - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentionally_blank_page <comment><USER2> This comment is intentionally blank.

</comment><comment><USER3> i expected it to not have any content</comment>


Dropbox Could Generate $100 Million in Revenue this Year - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/dropbox-revenue-2011-3

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow - congrats, that is awesome!</comment>


How to Create a Positive Experience on Your On-Demand Platform - <AUTHOR> https://www.radicalstart.com/blog/create-a-positive-experience-on-your-ondemand-platform/ <comment><USER2> User experience plays a major role in any online platform. It's a great article that you've shared.</comment>


Reducing Asset Size with Subsetting - <AUTHOR> https://bytes.zone/posts/reducing-asset-size-with-subsetting/ <comment><USER2> FYI, this is common enough that Google Fonts has subsetting built in.

You can use the Google Fonts API's 'text' parameter to specify specific glyphs, or you can use the more-general 'subset' property (e.g. subset=greek,cyrillic) to choose one or more scripts.

[https://developers.google.com/fonts/docs/getting_started](https://developers.google.com/fonts/docs/getting_started)

</comment><comment><USER3> Neat idea. My approach to solving this issue was configuring nginx to gzip responses with a high compression ratio. You can also precompress your asset files and tell nginx to find and serve the ".gz" compressed version of a static asset if available. This alleviates additional compute load imposed by Enabling compression.

<comment><USER4> I immediately jumped to "why don't we just compress them?" and it turns out I was wrong. The author is using the WOFF format ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Open_Font_Format](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Open_Font_Format)) which is already compressed with zlib using a special encoding. Serving them gzipped is unnecessary.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you are interested in reducing the font size, consider variable fonts. They are supported in pretty much every browser that matters. Although the file size is larger, it often is smaller when regular, italic, and bold variants put together.

When sunsetting, it's important to use a good alt don't too, so even if the glyph is missing from the font, it doesn't look too bad with the alt system font.

</comment><comment><USER6> See also [https://github.com/Munter/subfont#readme](https://github.com/Munter/subfont#readme) (or [https://www.gatsbyjs.org/packages/gatsby-plugin- subfont/](https://www.gatsbyjs.org/packages/gatsby-plugin-subfont/) for Gatsby sites).

</comment><comment><USER7> Incredible! Thought of doing this at the app level, but hadn't thought of italics etc. The concept of doing it with puppeteer is pretty neat.</comment>


I am a petite and youthful appearing black woman surgeon - <AUTHOR> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2757231 <comment><USER2> "On the dedicated research days when I dare to wear jeans, boots, and a fleece, when I can masquerade as anything but a doctor as I make my way to my office for a day of writing, I can truly hide in plain sight.

I watch the way no one makes space for me in the hall and contrast it with the small but impregnable berth my white coat typically provides. I watch the way that students and residents continue their beelines in my direction, assuming I will be the one who swerves when the time comes. I watch the way security guards try to hustle me along if they perceive me to be in the way of a patient they are escorting..."

Speaking as a half-Filipino who looks white (some think I look mixed, but I don't), it's experiences like these that I truly wouldn't be able to understand on a personal level. With that being said, I try to be cognizant of these things.

"...I watch the custodian continue to mop as I walk by, even as he stopped mopping for the young male surgical resident who had just walked in front of me."

I'm curious, though, but if the resident was in plainclothes would the custodian have paused to let him walk by?</comment>


Thunderbolt flaw allows access to a PC's data in minutes - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254290/thunderbolt-security-vulnerability-thunderspy-encryption-access-intel-laptops <comment><USER2> "Although hackers need physical access to a Windows or Linux computer to exploit the flaws, they could theoretically gain access to all data in about five minutes even if the laptop is locked, password protected, and has an encrypted hard drive. The entire process can reportedly be completed with a series of off-the-shelf components costing just a few hundred dollars."

yikes. this reminds me of when i used a thumb drive with my mac in college, plugged it into a windows computer, and discovered that all my deleted files were still there.</comment>


Fan death - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death <comment><USER2> Fan death is ridiculous but it's often used as a face-saving measure for families that have to deal with a suicide or an alcohol poisoning related death.</comment>


Startup hopes to hack the immigration system with a floating incubator - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/11/startup-hopes-to-hack-the-immigration-system-with-a-floating-incubator.ars <comment><USER2> Blueseed needs to tread carefully here. While 12 miles is generally safe for most activities, there's a 'contiguous zone' beyond 12 nautical miles extending up to 24 nautical miles where a coastal state may "exercise the control necessary to: (a) prevent infringement of its customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations within its territory or territorial sea; (b) punish infringement of the above laws and regulations committed within its territory or territorial sea."[1]

While 24 nautical miles is the upper boundary per international treaties, coastal states are free to adopt a contiguous zone less than 24 miles (such as to respect other coastal states' boundaries). In 1999, however, the United States announced that it was extending its contiguous zone to 24 nautical miles to protect against the infringements mentioned above.[2]

[1] [http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/uncl...](http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm) Sec. 4, Art. 33.

[2] <http://clinton4.nara.gov/CEQ/990902a.html>

</comment><comment><USER3> I wonder if this idea could be mimicked on land, for Midwesterners who want to move close to Silicon Valley, but can't tackle the housing prices. I know of several - no, many - entrepreneurs who would love to move to SV, but the money's too good back home and the risk is too high simply because of the difference in cost of living.

Maybe you Californians can give me your opinion. Would it be possible to set up an incubator's Headquarters outside of Silicon Valley, in some cheaper area, and still get the benefits of the SV culture, by commuting periodically (much like the boaters would do)?

I see on Zillow [1] that the average home cost in San Jose metro is $552K, while it's only $130K in Modesto (90 miles away).

Or is there another cheap area a little closer? Pleasanton? Fremont? (any other suggestions?) Maybe the incubator could get a bunk room apartment in SV for overnights or when there's an early meeting or a late-evening event.

Would that make any sense? Or do they just need to bite the bullet and move to Santa Clara or Sunnyvale, and pay outrageous prices for housing?

And if it wouldn't make sense, what does that say about this floating incubator idea?

[1] <http://www.zillow.com/local-info/CA-home-value/r_9/>

<comment><USER4> Not only is Modesto 90 miles away which would be pretty damn awful as a daily commute, but it's also not the nicest spot to live in. If you're getting paid a Silicon Valley salary, you can easily afford Bay Area housing. You could find spots like Modesto, Fremont or Oakland that are much cheaper… but there's a reason they're cheaper. For the most part, they're pretty crappy places to live.

I say this having lived in Oakland for a year, and trust me when I say that it's a huge shithole. Insane crime, crappy acomodations, and a very depressing atmosphere. I got mugged at gunpoint there once, too.

<comment><USER5> I have lived in Oakland for 8 years, dont drive a car, take public transit, walk, shop, and work here. Never been mugged. Perhaps the problem was with you and not the city. Anyways, with that attitude Im glad to hear you left. Dont come back.

<comment><USER6> I see this sentiment a lot, and I appreciate that your visceral reaction is because of the tone of the post you're replying to, so please don't take this too personally.

But, and I say this as a happy resident of the East Bay, you're simply sticking your head in the sand if you ignore the fact that Oakland and some of it's neighbors are very good places to become a victim: ranked fourth in the US, actually. 2010 FBI crime rate data; sort by "violent crime":

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate)

I love living over here, but this is a _terrible_ statistic, and Oakland has more than earned it's reputation. Expending all your effort telling people they're wrong to be afraid feels like such a waste; there are so many more productive things that could be done with that energy that might actually address the problem.

<comment><USER5> True that. I didn't mean to insinuate that Oakland is the safest place to live. I simply found the comment calling it a "huge shithole" mildly offensive. It may be more dangerous than other cities but I do believe, going on years of personal experience as well as observing the experiences of others, that the danger can be mitigated by one's own attitude and actions. I expend much energy in my community and leaving even that aside I believe I make Oakland a better place to live for everyone by smiling and saying hello to my neighbors every day. Perhaps not, just my take.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This will probably fail. But many if not most ambitious startups fail. However, it's something that must be tried at least for the sake of forcing a reconsideration of the US's draconian immigration restrictions on highly skilled workers.

There are a few criticisms that have popped up in regards to this project: 1) It will lead to the exploitation of workers. Nonsense. This only make economic sense of those non-US citizens who are skilled enough that it's worthwhile to be in proximity to SV. The "low-skilled" niche is already occupied by companies outsourcing to Bangalore et al. and entrepreneurs outsourcing to oDesk, eLance, etc.

2) Successful passage of the Startup Visa would undermine the business plan. Maybe, but once this gets underway, who knows what other opportunities could arise. The Startup Visa has some requirements: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_Visa#Requirements> It could be possible for this project to actually help non-US entrepreneurs get the needed funding to qualify for a Startup Visa.

Overall, I think it's worth trying, just not with my money. If they do succeed, my bet is that it won't be with the business model proposed in the article (charge for rent + some equity), it will be with something nobody is predicting right now.

<comment><USER8> Further counterpoints to the 2 points of criticism you raise. 1) Exploitation of immigrant workers (especially undocumented) is already common place within this country's borders, tho primarily for low-skilled jobs. I don't see any inherent economic incentive to worker exploitation on boat, above what unscrupulous employees already take advantage of on-shore. 2) Should legislation like the Startup Visa actually come to pass, the population on this boat could then simply move on-shore, and probably enjoy cheaper operating expenses. That population would already be rather unmoored, so to speak, so relocating shouldn't be too much of a hurdle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Some questions:

While the floating incubator will be in international waters, it's still within the U.S.'s exclusive economic zone. Is there legal precedent that travelling to a floating platform in the U.S.'s EEZ count as an "exit" for visa purposes?

The map in the article suggests that the ferries will go to/from Half Moon Bay. But Half Moon Bay is not a Port of Entry. Is the expectation that the U.S. government will set up HMB as a Port of Entry? And if it doesn't, is this project still practical if the ferries are required to travel to San Francisco?

If the U.S. decides to bar someone on the platform from entry, doesn't that mean that person is stuck on the platform? How else would someone get from the platform to, say, the U.K., without going through a U.S. airport?

<comment><USER2> It's actually within the contiguous zone, which offers even more regulatory abilities by the coastal state. The ship could just sail outside of the contiguous zone, but would still be within the EEZ. In that case, the issue becomes more tricky.

Article 56 of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea [UNCLOS] provides states with sovereign rights to exploit the resources contained within the EEG. If Blueseed wants to connect to undersea cables (or provide another mainland direct link), the ships become artificial islands because of the connection to the seabed. Because the provisions of Art. 60 of UNCLOS apply mutatis mantandis to artificial islands, it might not matter whether the start-up is an Art. 56 installation or a ship exercising its "high seas" freedoms. This protection extends to up to 200 nautical miles from the coast, so to be "truly" free, you'd have to go past the EEZ and likely operate an offshore airport for ferrying your employees.

As for the point of entry issues, I'm afraid I don't know anything about that. They'd likely be rendered moot by the need for an airport, though.

<comment><USER10> Keep in mind that the United States, while observing UNCLOS in many of its particulars, has not ratified it.

<comment><USER2> That's an extremely good point that I really should have mentioned, since some of the United States' issues with it pertain to the exclusive economic zone. Although a non-issue when dealing with the contiguous zone, moving a ship/artificial island outside of the contiguous zone may implicate it. I'll have to look some more into the United States' stance on Articles 56 and 60, which deal with the EEZ and artificial islands, respectively.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Honestly, if you've got a good product and you have access to the Internet, does it really matter where you are physically located? I understand the energy that being physically present in a particular locality gives, but what confuses me is that this solution seems counterproductive. Look at Mojang and Minecraft; they're in Sweden of all places and they're not on some boat trying to crank a product out. If you want that kind of life, you should join the Navy.

It's a lot like moving to Hollywood waiting tables/washing cars. The immigration problems are easily solved once the MVP is out...

In programming, the simplest solutions are often the best. The more complicated they are, the less thought out they are.

</comment><comment><USER12> This removes the workers from their local economy, drains the value they have to offer and plops them back where they came from with a meager wage to show for it.

Creating local jobs in an economy - even outsourced jobs - has a wide variety of ancillary benefits that this will lack.

As an immigrant to the USA (now citizen) I've had plenty of experience on a B-1 visa and I can assure you that life with a B-1 visa and an immigration official between you and the nearest terra firma will be miserable.

<comment><USER13> _This removes the workers from their local economy, drains the value they have to offer and plops them back where they came from with a meager wage to show for it._

Allowing people to immigrate to the US has the same effect.

<comment><USER14> That doesn't strike me as a very credible statement. A significant proportion of FDI in emerging markets comes from migrants either returning home or investing through personal social networks.

<comment><USER13> This would be more or less exactly the same with migrants living and working on a ship.

The only point I'm making is that I can't see a substantive difference (for people in the home country) between migration to SanFran and migration to the USS SanFran.

<comment><USER14> Well, consider someone who immigrates and subsequently has a family. One doubts this ship would have appropriate medical, daycare, or school facilities. Sure, most startup minded are likely single and focused on business, but non work considerations are important to many people. Under current immigration law, family members of green card holders and naturalized US citizens get preference in visa allocations; whatever you think of this as policy, it's certainly a significant benefit for some people in the country of origin which wouldn't be available with the sea borne approach. Likewise potential business or investment partners in a non-US country would probably prefer to deal with someone who has a secure foothold in the US capital or retail market. Speaking as someone who has lived in several different countries, the difference between being a tourist and being properly plugged into the local and legal infrastructure you are working with is huge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> It is kind of sad in a way. News like that makes me think the days where one can expect a long career doing satisfying work, whilst having a normal life with family and your own roof over your head are slowly drawing to a close.

Now people are going to be crammed into cabins on a boat? Real nice.

<comment><USER16> I don't think "a long career doing satisfying work, whilst having a normal life with family and your own roof over your head" has been a realistic expectation for some time now. Outside of a handful of rich-world countries it's never been realistic.

Personally I think this is an exciting project, and it needn't be a miserable experience; if done right this little floating village could be the kind of high-tech melting pot that leads people to do great things.

<comment><USER17> I think "a long career doing satisfying work, whilst having a normal life with family and your own roof over your head" is possible only in academia if you can get faculty position quickly. Although, the probability of getting grants is so small that it hardly can be called "normal life".

It's just sad that you create new technologies for U.S. and getting cold shoulder from Uncle Sam.

<comment><USER18> I don't think it's uncommon in technology or engineering. There are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of "normal" engineering jobs at places like IBM and Lockheed that have fairly good job security, pay well, and don't involve insane working hours.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Easier option. Move to Ensenada Mexico. It takes 2 hrs to get to San Diego.

<http://g.co/maps/35bqv>

Reduce your expenses, Live in the beach, enjoy Mexican hospitality.

<comment><USER20> Are there any existing startup communities by the beach in Mexico? I can't think of a more ideal way to work for a few months (for those of us without families or who otherwise can't move around).

<comment><USER19> Not that I know. Most start ups in Mexico are in bigger cities, but in any case we still lack an entrepreneurial culture.

<comment><USER21> >>we still lack an entrepreneurial culture<<

Which Mexico are you talking about? The one with millions upon millions of independent taco stands, repair shops, tianguis, ciber cafes, roving traditional music bands, and drug cartels?

Sure, internet startup culture hasn't taken the place as far as Silicon Valley yet, but entrepreneurial culture isn't what's lacking.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This might be a creative way to deal with immigration issues. But it's obviously wrong. Maybe it's not wrong as a business plan. Maybe it's not wrong with the legality of the venture. But it's wrong to have people resort to this. It's not really solving a problem, it's creating a new set of problems.

How long before foreign workers are kept on a similar boat outside of territorial waters? Imagine living on a vessel where you can't leave because you're not allowed onto the nearest land mass, you're forced to pay rent to live there, and quaint little things like labour and safety laws don't apply. Indentured servitude, slavery, fear, children born with no rights as citizens anywhere - welcome to (just outside of the) United States of America.

Think I'm being melodramatic? Who do you think is going to be serving meals, cooking and cleaning? Why bother with Americans when you can keep a Filipino locked in the bowels of the boat?

Dario Mutabdzija and Max Marty are obviously world class assholes.

<comment><USER23> Don't the same issues apply to the cruise ship industry?

<comment><USER22> Yes. Although they do hit a port now and then. So at least there's a chance to get off once in awhile. Also this reminds me of the cruise ships docked during the Vancouver Olympics. Many of the workers on the cruise ships were not allowed to touch land.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This actually doesn't solve the problem it think it does. If this is an 'incubator' like YC (i.e. only lasts 3 months) this doesn't make any sense, because I can get a visitor's visa (B-2 I believe) to go and participate in YC.

If this is a more long-term solution, and given that they are renting office space for $1300 - $3000/mo, you can actually get an E-2 Treaty Visa assuming that you can prove that your company will employ 10 people over 2 years and be setting up office locally, and investing a minimum of at least $200K I believe. This was even before relaxation of H1-B rules that allowed foreign workers to start their own companies.

So I am not sure how far this will go...they should re-examine what they are trying to do. It sounds like they are just trying to experiment with a Seasteading exercise and have it subsidized by funded tech startups.

If the real aim is to solve the immigration problem for startups, this particular solution might not be the best.

<comment><USER23> B-2 is for tourists. You're probably thinking of the B-1, but as I understand it that precludes "productive work" and only allows meetings.

The idea is to provide a platform for companies that aren't yet large enough to take advantage of visas that are available to larger firms. So startups that got traction would eventually transfer over to being normal SV companies.

<comment><USER24> > The idea is to provide a platform for companies that aren't yet large enough > to take advantage of visas that are available to larger firms. So startups > that got traction would eventually transfer over to being normal SV > companies.

That would make sense, except their offering doesn't sound like that's what they are aiming at. For a company to reach the point where it is spending $3K/mo just to be within 12 miles off the shore of SV, with crappy satellite inet...they would have to already be at the point where they can transition into being a 'normal SV company'...thereby making this point moot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> A better option that is unlikely to sink: Vancouver, BC

<comment><USER26> It is a 2.5 hour drive. It might take the same amount of time to go from blueseed to a meeting (with a NEXUS card) as it would from vancouver to seattle.

<comment><USER27> 2.5 hours plus border wait time, plus more time if you don't have a Canadian passport and need a visa to enter the US. On the other hand Vancouver has a startup community so you don't need to go to Seattle to find an incubator. Plus we have vastly more sane immigration laws in Canada

<comment><USER26> Border waiting times and visas will be similar or worse with this scheme too. At least with the car border crossing, you have the option of a NEXUS card and your not prone to the TSA style procedures due the xray scanner you driver through.

I was going on travel times alone comparing the two, treating the border wait times as identical in both schemes. I've lived with ferries, the trip from the cruise boat to the shore will be 1 hour typically plus an extra 30 minutes for boarding/disboarding procedures and then another 45 minutes driving minimum to get from half moon bay to palo alto. So you'll be half an hour faster on average compared to vancouver-seattle. A helicopter taxi would be faster, but they typically cost $100 per one way trip.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I have a relating question, for anyone law-inclined:

What's stopping someone from setting up a "consulting" company in various countries to act as a shell? If a company wants to hire an immigrant, that immigrant could grab a B-1 visa (or whatever else is applicable). The company would then in turn pay the shell company, which would operate at a $1 profit, and pay the salary to the worker.

Am I missing something entirely?

<comment><USER29> sounds like you have never been to the interview in the American Consulate abroad. If the company isn't well known, the amount of paparework you'd need to bring will be impressive, like tax, balance sheets, etc... reports for a nice number or previous quarters/years. And they seem to employ, at least in the Consulates in Russia, pretty smart nice people who like to ask very specific and targetted questions.

So while it isn't impossible and there are various arrangements out there along these lines, it isn't an easy exploitable scheme and once this particular worker is "caught" in such a scheme, his future visas/immigration chances become much more slimmer - this is even if the scheme is setup and operated by somebody else. As a result for hi-tech people the "white" ways like H1/L1 are much more preferrable. The H1 numbers for the last years even wasn't exhausted for example.

<comment><USER30> Vlad, good points.

Just a minor correction, the H-1B cap has been filled every years since 2003, at least.

[http://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-for- fy-2004-20...](http://redbus2us.com/h1b-visa-cap-reach-dates-for- fy-2004-2011-h1b-2012-filing-decision/)

(which needs an update for FY2012 - the cap was reached last week)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Anything that helps attack the immigration problem is a good thing. Even if it's far-fetched hacks like this, hopefully it will give people some inspiration on how to solve the problem without waiting for the slow, slow process of the government changing immigration law.

</comment><comment><USER32> When I saw the link title I thought the boat was going to be for expecting mothers from other countries to live on and then deliver their babies in US waters (making them US citizens). Needless to say, I was quite confused for the first couple paragraphs...

</comment><comment><USER14> Not a lawyer, but when I am immigration is the area I plan to practice in. This is a terrible idea; even if the floating platform is conjured into a fully operation existence tomorrow, anyone who goes to work there will more likely be effectively barred from future entry to the US by the rather draconian criteria that currently govern the immigration system. This would be viewed as something akin to economic piracy and the list of legal things that could go wrong is growing exponentially the longer I think about it.

I know this is a pretty broad-brush criticism, but where I think the architects of this project are going wrong is in their mechanistic/formalist assessment of immigration and admiralty (maritime) law. You can look at things in the US code and say a particular legal approach should work, but in doing so you're assuming a purely neutral implementation and arbitration process. In reality, immigration is highly politicized for a variety of reasons. Most obviously, there's the general spirit of labor protectionism and xenophobia that reflects popular nationalistic and economic anxiety. Then there's the fact that immigration is one area where Congress exercises plenary power, and uses it to effectively exempt some immigration rules from judicial or executive review. On the administrative side, you have an executive that has repeatedly set records in enforcement (highs for deportation, lows for unauthorized entry) and has set out a fairly clear policy of prioritizing enforcement activities against violent criminals rather than undocumented economic migrants who are otherwise law-abiding; but the union that represents immigration enforcement officers is diametrically opposed to these goals, takes the position that 'the administration refuses to enforce the law', and its spokesperson has consistently aligned the union with the most hardline conservative stance imaginable on this issue. I don't know whether this is because the union leadership considers more aggressive enforcement to be economically beneficial to its membership or because the persons involved simply hold reactionary political views, but it's no exaggeration to say that there is open bureaucratic warfare between the uniformed and legal staff within ICE.

Under these circumstances, and bearing in mind that in immigration matters, the burden of proof rests with the non-citizen rather than the government (in contrast to criminal procedure), how long will a daily offshore ferry service on the doorstep of Silicon Valley be allowed to operate before being shut down as a 'suspected people smuggling operation' or similar? Aside from the obvious risk of maritime accidents when you have daily 'ferry' journeys going 12-24 miles into oceanic waters, visitors from an offshore labor platform are going to have about the least user-friendly experience it is possible to have when they come in contact with the coastal ICE agents. As in, being taken into custody and deported to their country, not their point, of origin. We're talking about an agency that has an occasional habit of deporting US citizens by accident, for example: [http://www.lexisnexis.com/community/immigration- law/blogs/ou...](http://www.lexisnexis.com/community/immigration- law/blogs/outside/archive/2011/11/21/another-u-s-citizen-arrested-jailed- almost-deported-by-ice.aspx)

So, A+ for good intentions and drawing further attention to the economically self-defeating nature of current US policy, but F- for real world practicality.

<comment><USER21> To add to the excellent summary by anigbrowl about the power of existing interests to make the immigrant ship into a disaster, let's consider the competition.

Vancouver and La Paz (or possibly Ensenada or Los Cabos) offer urban amenities, affordable living, first world infrastructure and quality of life, plenty of space, and -- most importantly -- easy work visas. They're all within two to three hours of SJC and SFO airports in Silicon Valley, probably about as close in total travel time as the offshore ship.

If you really need to import a complete team from Durka-durkastan and can't get all the H1B's you want, just stick 'em in La Paz and spend a day taking in the Baja ocean breezes any time you need to see them in person. Any team the boat would work for, Mexico would work better.

(note: Mexican immigration law is much harsher on the undocumented than US law, but much easier on legal immigrants so get your papers in order when you try this; it's pretty easy.)

<comment><USER14> Thanks for your kind words!

 _(note: Mexican immigration law is much harsher on the undocumented than US law, but much easier on legal immigrants so get your papers in order when you try this; it's pretty easy.)_

Actually, Mexico reformed its immigration regime a few years ago, such that it is now decriminalized and involves only a nominal fine. Not that you'd know it from reading US media, which doesn't cover Mexican politics very well.

<http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=562826> or [http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/02/28/176511/mexico-i...](http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/02/28/176511/mexico- immigration-reform/) for a quick overview.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> This is a great idea. It doesn't need to be the answer to everything for everyone. It just needs to work for some folks.

Immigration is just one aspect to this. I hope that blueseed is not just looking at this as a tech incubator, as I believe there are a number of complementary markets they could go after.

I could imagine a lot of high net-worth families in Asia being interested in this, if it's marketed properly (and the proper package of services is put together etc).

Another regulatory area that could be arbitraged nicely is the inefficient and irrational processes in the FDA approval programs. Take a little trip to Blueseed to get your stem cell injection (etc.).

</comment><comment><USER34> You know what first came into my mind when I heard about this? Pirate Radio. :)

<comment><USER35> That and "I'm on a boat" from Lonely Island ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> the fact that there's American people trying to get Immigrants into the country playing in grey areas of the law ( or "hacking" if you want to call it that ) should be enough for US Lawmakers to fix what they currently have, theres a big opportunity for the US to exploit its tech culture converting it to a big incubator, instead they want us to bring money from abroad to get a "Startup Visa" or they want us paying taxes landing already hired with H1's or TN's. I dont know much about law and immigration, but in my experience (having a TN for a year moving to the US only to have it denied after the 1st year and having to come back to Mexico) the system is really broken, and since no one from the US has to go through it, it will remain so, until they review and test it.

</comment><comment><USER37> This is a terrible, stupid, idea and will never work. Ever.

In addition to the myriad other problems, the logistics alone of keeping that ship at sea, and keeping everyone fed, healthy, and sane for months if not years on end will doom this to failure.

</comment><comment><USER38> This would be a medical nightmare. People from all over the world commingling their exotic (relative to their shipmates' immune systems) diseases, infections, virii, etc., is a recipe for huge, huge medical issues.

</comment><comment><USER39> There's a development company based out of Cleveland that already has a boat. All they need to do is make it sea worthy...

<http://leandog.com/>

<comment><USER40> Their boat seems more lake worthy than sea worthy. I couldn't really picture it out in international waters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> This is also interesting from a libertarian perspective. See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading>

</comment><comment><USER42> I guess I'm too isolated from business jargon, but it took me half this article to realize they weren't talking about a _medical_ incubator.

</comment><comment><USER43> > 200-300 crew members in total

That doesn't sound much like a startup to me.

</comment><comment><USER44> I don't think this hacks the immigration problem.

It just puts people on a boat which happens to be close to Silicon Valley, so I suppose it's comfortable for VCs to come onboard and see the action?

</comment><comment><USER45> certainly very creative way of dealing with the imigration problems. But what if the Startup Visa gets support and will pass? Then surely this project is doomed to fail and therefore hard to get an investment.

We are thinking of moving to US with our startup (well, more like a business already with 10 employees and profitable) but I would rather wait for the laws to change before deciding to live on the boat for extended period of time.

<comment><USER8> 12miles off shore is not terribly far. Telecommute would be quite possible, assuming this ship would have fast wireless Internet service via some terrestrial band. (100Mbps+ is quite possible with off-the-shelf unlicensed equipment in the 5.8GHz band over that distance, faster for licensed.)

I wonder if employees fortunate enough to be granted a visa could then move to the SF area an then actually commute via high-speed shuttle boat. Telecommute would suggest that such employees' actual commute need not be daily.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Hey, what ever happened to Sealand anyway?

</comment><comment><USER47> Ooh neat - when the bubble pops, this could be a fun thing to remember the stupidity of the bubble by. Kind of like pets.com of the first one.

<comment><USER48> Indeed -- I remember multiple firms trying to do the exact same thing on mothballed cruise ships during the height of the dotcom bubble (v1).

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> This is a rather old problem isn't it? As in early 1990's.

The fact that it has come to this leads me to believe things have not improved.

Seems to me that either you find a way to get these skilled workers into the US or they will just form pure plays and compete with American companies from abroad. Is that true?

</comment><comment><USER50> software startups on land: piracy is annoying or irrelevent

software startups at sea: piracy is deadly or worse</comment>


Dave Brubeck, Who Helped Put Jazz Back in Vogue, Dies at 91 - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/arts/music/dave-brubeck-jazz-musician-dies-at-91.html <comment><USER3> Dave Brubeck took a stand against racism and would refuse to play in segregated venues. He turned down offers to perform in South Africa because of ordinances that prohibited racially mixed groups. He apparently started one the first racially integrated bands in the U.S. army during WW II.

We lost a musical genius _and_ a good human being.

<comment><USER4> Brubeck's career benefitted MASSIVELY from being white (ish: he was of mixed ancestry), a fact he was himself quite ashamed of.

<comment><USER5> Sadly you're right. The world was a bad place back then, extraordinarily decent people living in an indecent society. I like to think Brubeck amongst others contributed to the demise of segregation and the basis of our modern integrated society. He was an exceptional jazz musician and an all round great guy who was very grateful for what he had. There's no such thing these days as a real musician, Dave was part of a dying breed of people who got into music because they love what they do, not because they want to be famous or rich like modern day musicians.

<comment><USER6> > There's no such thing these days as a real musician, Dave was part of a > dying breed of people who got into music because they love what they do, not > because they want to be famous or rich like modern day musicians.

I think that says more about you than the state of modern musicians. There will always be 'real musicians', motivated by their love of the art. Whether or not we can find them depends on how willing we are to dig past the shallow acts that top the charts.

<comment><USER5> Please see my other response. My comment was meant to be interpreted as most musicians who have "made it" these days aren't real musicians, it's all appearance and showmanship not musicianmanship. While there are some great musicians who are considered as having made it, there aren't many and in a world where people still think Slash is the worlds greatest guitarist it's obvious famous musicians who appreciate their art, the fans and what they have are a dying breed.

There will always be real musicians around, but I purely meant those who have made it not those who do the 9-5 hustle and bustle in the Subway's playing for change or smaller venues for $50 and a bar tab.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm 33. I "discovered" Brubeck four or five years ago, primarily wearing out Jazz Impressions of New York while looking to detox a bit from a year of Bitches Brew-era Miles Davis.

In April 2011 my wife and I took a train from South Carolina to Washington D.C. to catch one of Dave's four sold out shows at Blues Alley. I paid more money than I had ever paid to see a concert, knowing this would likely be my only chance to ever see him live. He played an amazing set, with minimal onstage banter, giving his players plenty of room to shine during their solos.

He ended the set with a few of his more well-known standards, and then—just before leaving the stage—simply said, "They've got me on oxygen. But I made it through the whole set without needing the damn thing."

Class act.

<comment><USER8> Glad to hear it. Discovery is always a lot of fun, regardless of latency.

Don't stop there. There were/are many good musicians performing excellent work from the 1950s and 60s on. Please keep looking.

I'll mention just a few I consider deserving of attention (and this is by no means comprehensive): Yusef Lateef, John Coltrane, Eddie Palmieri, Sun Ra, Oliver Nelson, John Hicks, Joe Henderson, Duke Pearson, Cal Tjader, Cannonball Adderley, …, MJQ, …).

If you would like to hear an(other) excellent tune in 5/4 besides /Take Five/ circa nine years later, check out Yusef Lateef's rendition of /Get Over, Get Off and Get On/ on the album "The Blue Yusef Lateef".

There are wonderful contemporary musicians, long-standing and novel, worth seeing at the most intimate of venues, the nightclub, as you have found.

My first nightclub experience, long ago, was Cannonball Adderley at the London House in Chicago, circa 1968, and I've enjoyed such a venue ever since. Nothing is better.

<comment><USER9> I just saw Dick Dale, legendary surf guitarist for similar reasons. He's no Bruebeck, but a national treasure nonetheless.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I learned of Dave's music when I tracked down the theme song used in "The Secret Life of Machines" (which was "Take Five"). I bought his album "Time out" that had that song on it and really enjoyed it. Then bought the Christmas Album. Sad to hear he has died, but glad he chose to share his music with us.

<comment><USER11> Time Out is a pretty unique jazz album that's often overlooked. Most jazz, like rock, is in 4/4 time (with the odd waltz-time tune to liven it up.) Not good enough for Dave Brubeck: Time Out has all kinds of weird compound time stuff going on. Take Five is in 5/4, which gives it its unusual vibe; Three to Get Ready gives you two bars of 3/4 and two of 4/4, alternating (which to me it feels a bit like a car on the verge of starting; I don't actually like that tune.) There's other stuff going on there too but it's been a while since I listened to it. Will dig it out again tonight in his honour.

Non jazz-heads wanting a similar experience could do worse than listen to Money, by Pink Floyd: 7/4 for the verses, then 4/4 for the solo.

<comment><USER12> Or The Mars Volta, or Cinematic Orchestra, or the Mission Impossible theme. Anyway, Time Out is great, but it is anything but overlooked.

<comment><USER13> The Mission Impossible theme was done by Argentinian jazz/bossa nova composer Lalo Schifrin.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> That the Brubeck obit is a Top 10 HN story puts a smile on my face ;)

If you're in a jazzy mood tonite, I can strongly recommend the recent Shinichiro Watanbe anime "Kids on the Slope" (坂道のアポロン Sakamichi no Apollon).

<http://www.crunchyroll.com/kids-on-the-slope>

<comment><USER15> Completely OT but I just don't get anime at all. What am I missing? I got 10 minutes through Episode 1 at that link expecting something to happen - <USER2> did. I don't even really follow the storyline - a wimpy kid who can only stop himself throwing up by running onto the school roof.

It's like cryptic crosswords, god and football matches - I must be missing a part of the brain.

<comment><USER16> That's just representative of the "slice of life" genre, not anime as a whole. I'd say try Cowboy Bebop, it's the same director, same composer, but this time it's a bounty hunter space opera with a jazz score. It often gets compared to Firefly. It doesn't seem to be on Crunchyroll but it's widely available.

<comment><USER16> Also, Kids on the Slope is pretty good, if the idea of a jazz tribute coming of age innocent high school soap opera is appealing. Thanks quasistar.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Oh my... I had no idea he was still alive until now! Shame on me :-(

A while ago, I randomly bought a Dave Brubeck CD. I'd heard of him and knew he was a jazz pianist, but was not familiar with his work at all, so I thought I'd give it a try.

It happened to be this one: [http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Impressions-York-Dave- Brubeck/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Impressions-York-Dave- Brubeck/dp/B0012GMVZ8/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1354741125&sr=1-6&keywords=dave+brubeck)

For the next couple of weeks, it didn't leave my CD player - I had it on constant repeat. It's just really good.

Funnily, I was into text adventures / IF at that time as well, so now in my brain the "Jazz Impressions of New York" are forever entangled with "A Mind Forever Voyaging".

</comment><comment><USER18> I have such great memories of enjoying Brubeck's music with my late grandparents, delivered off dusty LPs. Take Five is, for all it's over- saturation, still one of my favorite pieces of all time (and Time Out is one of my favorite albums). While his passing is sad, dying at 91 and leaving such an amazing legacy is all we can really hope for.

</comment><comment><USER19> Brubeck and Paul Desmond inspired me musically at an early age to pick up the sax and fueled my love of jazz. "Time Out" was the first CD I ever bought with my own money (my grandfather had an original vinyl copy I would listen to at his house). My nick can even be traced back to Dave's early influence in my life. I don't have many personal heroes or idols in my life, but Dave Brubeck is one of them. This is sad news.

</comment><comment><USER20> I love Unsquare Dance. Short, but quirky. Awesome. I can remember listening to Take Five and Blue Rondo A La Turk on the radio with my Dad!

Wish I'd been able to see him live. What a great man.

<comment><USER21> I used to listen to Time Out with my dad too, late at night with whiskey. So many good Brubeck memories...

<comment><USER20> Great, now I need some whiskey. Thanks. >.> :P

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> We saw him a few years ago at a concert at Ravinia (<https://www.ravinia.org/>) along with Ramsay Lewis. Dave was clearly not a full physical strength, and it seemed that he was playing fewer notes, but his enthusiasm was tops.

I recommend the boxed set [http://www.amazon.com/For-All-Time-Dave- Brubeck/dp/B0001FGB9...](http://www.amazon.com/For-All-Time-Dave- Brubeck/dp/B0001FGB9I/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1354742221&sr=8-3&keywords=dave+brubeck+box+set)

</comment><comment><USER23> I am proud to have paid him homage by naming my web framework after him. He deserves so much more.

<comment><USER24> Interesting, that's actually the first thing I thought of, and not the pianist (I did not know about him).

It may sound crass, but I may as well ask: how's Brubeck (the framework) coming along?

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Yesterday night I was at this tribute concert to Dave Brubeck... We thought he was still alive then. It was an electrifying concert.

(trailer <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heAAOVJTLwQ> )

<comment><USER26> Given that he died this morning, he was alive last night.

<comment><USER27> Different time zones.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I saw Dave Brubeck in concert about 10 years ago. When he walked on stage, he very much looked like a man in his 80s, but when he started playing he was still pure genius.

</comment><comment><USER29> Dave Brubeck was awesome. Glad to hear that he lived to a ripe old age. I don't know much about him, but I hope his years were as fun, energetic, and awesome as his music.

<comment><USER30> I saw him in 2000 when he was 80 and he was in command of all his chops. I am grateful I saw so many giants before the passed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> What I'm about to say doesn't have anything to do with anything, but I find it remarkable that he died the eve of his birthday.

I have a theory that people die not long _after_ their birthday, and never before -- meaning that the time from their last birthday < the time before their next birthday (the theory being that they fight to live until their birthday, and then they let go).

Anecdotal evidence gathered among people I knew confirms this, but I would like to test it on a scale that would be statistically significant -- but I don't know where to find the data...

\- - -

This specific event would appear to be a counter example, except one can consider that dying "almost" the day of one's birthday doesn't really falsify the theory. He tried to live up to the day of his birthday and almost succeeded.

<comment><USER32> Recent time series research from University of Zürich: [http://www.annalsofepidemiology.org/article/S1047-2797(12)00...](http://www.annalsofepidemiology.org/article/S1047-2797\(12\)00110-X/abstract).

Result: chance to die on your birthday is about 14% higher than any other day of the year; based on investigating time and causes of death of 2 milion people over a period of 40 years. On your birthday, sadly apparent there is a higher chance for a stroke, accidents and suicide. People suffering from a long-time illness like cancer also have a higher chance to die on their birthday.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> KCSM.org is playing a lot of Brubeck today...pieces I never heard before. Tomorrow's morning (Pacific time) show will be devoted to Brubeck.

UPDATE: the show starting at 5PM pacific time today will also be devoted to Dave

<comment><USER34> God I miss turning on the radio to hear KCSM now that I live in Austin. I programmed years of my life away listening to that station in a crappy rented room in Sunnyvale after college, and loved every bit of it.

So grateful they're streaming online. I still donate.

If you live in the Bay Area and don't see a show at Yoshi's, you definitely owe it to yourself...

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> "put jazz back in vogue"? i've searched the article and still can't work out what this is referring to. is he particularly prized in the usa? was he some kind of tv personality?

(i listen to a fair bit of jazz; respect to the guy - he made one of the famous jazz records - but if he was the first jazz musician on time's cover that, in honesty, says a lot more about time, american culture, and his skin colour (no criticism of brubeck implied - see the article for his impeccable credentials there) than his status as a jazz musician).

<comment><USER36> There's two factors here. One is that bebop--the previous ruling jazz style-- faded considerably during WWII, and was also dominated by black culture. Brubeck brought jazz back into style, and also--as you noted--made it less of a racial issue. The previous white jazz was big band swing, which had its heyday in the '20s and was long gone by Brubeck's day.

<comment><USER37> You're a bit off in your chronology. Swing was big up through the late 40s - Glenn Miller and Duke Ellington dominated the charts.

Bebop didn't really take over until the post war years.

<comment><USER30> Bebop was created in NYC clubs during WWII during club dates that occurred during the recording strikes and shellac shortages.

Bebop didn't get commercial play until soldiers came home and heard the new sounds put down by Bird, Diz, and Monk.

In many ways, bebop and jump blues filled the gap between the two "music for dancing": swing and rock and roll.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> "Take five" was actually a great jazz theme that I always compare to great programming, saying: "You want to know how the great code looks like? Listen to this."

Rest in peace, Mr Brubeck.

<comment><USER39> Paul Desmond wrote 'Take Five'. For an example of Brubeck's masterful "great code", check out "Blue Rondo a la Turk". Genius.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> a lot of people know his album "time out", with "Take Five", but the quartet got a lot wilder than that. My favorite record is "Jazz At Oberlin", Dave really plays some different stuff entirely, the interplay is fantastic.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> A retrospective of Brubeck's career by Minnesota Public Radio, with video clips of some of Brubeck's performances:

[http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns...](http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/archive/2012/12/on_brubeck.shtml)

</comment><comment><USER41> I was lucky to see him perform live a few years ago in redwood city. He seemed to be having a lot of fun at the age of 87! I wish I would be able to say the same if I make it that far.

</comment><comment><USER42> Dave was awesome. If you don't have "Time Out" in your collection, that's shameful. College wouldn't have been the same without it.

</comment><comment><USER43> He taught us how to love music with his enlightened soul.

We'll dearly miss you Dave, rest in peace.

</comment><comment><USER44> I always feel I'm missing a gene in that I never really liked jazz all that much. Seems I'm in the minority here..

(And not to take anything away from Mr Brubeck).

</comment><comment><USER45> Love that this is posted here. Spend many hours listening to Dave Brubeck. A legend.

</comment><comment><USER46> Anyone up for posting a list of recommended tracks for Brubeck newbs to listen to?

</comment><comment><USER47> Great write up on a very talented man.</comment>


Amazon's new 'Cloud Drive': Better than iTunes? - <AUTHOR> http://theweek.com/article/index/213660/amazons-new-cloud-drive-better-than-itunes

<comment><AUTHOR> Hard to think that Apple won't outdo this in the next few months...</comment>


Millenials No. 1 Complaint - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/02/a-millennial-therapist-brings-up-the-biggest-complaint-they-bring-up-in-therapy.html <comment><USER2> > _"I have too many choices and I can't decide what to do. What if I make the > wrong choice?"_</comment>


Programmers Need to Learn Statistics - <AUTHOR> http://zedshaw.com/archive/programmers-need-to-learn-statistics-or-i-will-kill-them-all/

<comment><USER2> this author just seems like an incredibly unpleasant person to work with.

</comment><comment><USER3> Nah, rather market needs to pay us more for knowing it. Then we'll learn it.</comment>


Ledger: Addressing the July 2020 e-commerce and marketing data breach - <AUTHOR> https://www.ledger.com/addressing-the-july-2020-e-commerce-and-marketing-data-breach <comment><USER2> TL;DR

> On the 14th of July 2020, a researcher participating in our bounty program > made us aware of a potential data breach on the Ledger website. We > immediately fixed this breach after receiving the researcher's report and > underwent an internal investigation. A week after patching the breach, we > discovered It had been further exploited on the 25th of June 2020, by an > unauthorized third party who accessed our e-commerce and marketing database > – used to send order confirmations and promotional emails – consisting > mostly of email addresses, but with a subset including also contact and > order details such as first and last name, postal address, email address and > phone number. Your payment information and crypto funds are safe.</comment>


Ninja's unboxing nexus s - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/ninjaunboxing2

<comment><USER2> Don't forget that you can get the Nunchaku (scroll down a bit) and attack the page, akin to the Asteroids bookmarlket.

</comment><comment><USER3> Love it</comment>


Ask HN: List of hacking schools? - <AUTHOR>

Has anyone compiled a list of hacking schools like http://hackreactor.com/ or https://www.hackerschool.com/ <comment><USER2> Not complete but here's the list I've bookmarked:

Dev Bootcamp Flatiron School Code Fellows App Academy General Assembly The Starter League Launch Academy</comment>


Ask HN: Any web dev. material targeted to experienced software engineer? - <AUTHOR>

It seems that most materials are either targeted to beginner with not prior programming experience or to experienced web developers.So they are either boring or assume to much prior knowledge. Furthermore(and perhaps that's the main problem) most of those targeted to experienced web dev. are usually tutorial/course trying to each a new framework : they feel like a collection of how-to and example without really giving a big picture. <comment><USER2> [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Learn](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/Learn) is a good place to start.

[http://eloquentjavascript.net/](http://eloquentjavascript.net/) does a great job, especially in the later chapters.

[http://learn.shayhowe.com/advanced-html-css/responsive- web-d...](http://learn.shayhowe.com/advanced-html-css/responsive-web-design/) 'Responsive' site design is a must-have now-a-days.

[http://alistapart.com/article/dao](http://alistapart.com/article/dao) The philosophy and theory of web design

I have some other links you may be interested in on a blog post I wrote a while back: [http://mygen.ca/develop-developing- developers/](http://mygen.ca/develop-developing-developers/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, i should probably mentioned the material i already went through. I really loved the Mozilla website, as it try to give a why behind any how. Going through Elequentjavascript right now :).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> [https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know- JS/blob/master/READM...](https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know- JS/blob/master/README.md#you-dont-know-js-book-series) is something that comes to my mind. In general, I think that there's a ton of the sort of material you're looking for! [http://teropa.info/build-your-own- angular](http://teropa.info/build-your-own-angular) is another one. There's also some books and stuff on design patterns.</comment>


How VR startups can survive the slow growth of 2017 - <AUTHOR> https://venturebeat.com/2017/03/12/how-vr-startups-can-survive-the-slow-growth-of-2017/2/ <comment><USER2> VR has been around since the 90's so how slow do you want the growth to be? I hear PS3 has like a few million units sold... isn't that enough to sustain a VR dev team yet?</comment>


Invite to "Launch: Silicon Valley 2007" - <AUTHOR>

<comment><AUTHOR> Just got this email, sent to our site's contact address.

Since it says "Please forward this invite to others who could benefit" and is probably of interest to people here, I'm including it below, in its entirety:

\</comment><comment>-- Original Message </comment><comment>-- Subject: Launch: Silicon Valley 2007 - Your Gateway to Funding & Beyond Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 16:53:53 +0530 To: firstname.lastname@example.com

SVASE and Garage Technology Ventures

Co-present

Launch: Silicon Valley 2007- Your Gateway to Funding & Beyond

Create the Buzz; Raise the Money and Build your Business

www.launchsiliconvalley.org

June 5, 2007

Microsoft Campus in Mountain View, CAI

If you think you have developed a cool technology and want the world to discover you, this is the time to do it. SVASE and Garage Technology Ventures open the doorway to success for you -Launch: Silicon Valley, (www.launchsiliconvalley.org ), Bay Area's premier launch event, on June 5th at Microsoft campus in Mountain View, CA, presents the most keenly awaited event by VCs and investment community. This event is designed to give you an opportunity to meet, network and showcase your product to all the Movers & Shakers of not only the venture world but also the corporate world and the Blogosphere.

Business Benefits:

By attending this event, you will have the opportunity to:

a.. To make a presentation directly in front of VCs, Angel Investors, M&A; Executives, Senior Corporate Biz Dev Executives, Bloggers, Press and potential business partners. b.. In addition, the CEOs of the companies voted "most promising new company" in each of the six sessions at the event will also receive invitations (for two) to attend the prestigious Ernst & Young "Entrepreneur of the Year" Gala Dinner on June 29 at the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco. c.. To showcase products and services d.. To be recognized as one of the most exciting startups

Please forward this invite to others who could benefit. Thank you.

Please submit 2 page executive summary before May 3rd, 2007.

email@example.com

</comment><comment><USER2> Out of all the "spam" you could get, this is probably the least annoying (and actually beneficial for some) kind you can get.

When contacting people like this, it's usually wise to customize each email (which it doesn't look like they did).

Hey X,

That thing you said on your blog... hilarious! I once did the same thing. Do you know so and so?

The reason I'm contacting you is....

Something like that, only less spammy sounding.

</comment><comment><USER3> I got this as a comment on my blog. Is this the beginning of startup spam?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think it just reflects how hard it is to get attention these days.

I didn't mind it because it was fairly novel (mail we get to that address is usually either a feature request or a user complaint), and _seemed_ legit.

But if tons of other groups start advertising their events this way, it could get tiring, fast.

<comment><USER4> You would get tired of VCs and Angels giving you opportunities to pitch? Blogga, PLEASE.

<comment><AUTHOR> It depends _who_ those VCs and angels are; pitching to just any old investor is not a good idea.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Debugging a Debugger - <AUTHOR> http://www.idrisr.com/2015/10/12/debugging-a-debugger.html <comment><USER2> _It 's a really powerful way to debug as you can automate much of the debugging process and do things that aren't practical without scripting._

IMHO when debugging software needs to be automated to the point that a library needs to be written (and itself debugged), there's an underlying problem which can't be solved with adding more layers of complexity - as that will only introduce _more_ bugs. When these bugs are in the software you're using to debug, things can quickly take a turn for the worse.

Is that code really taking the user's input (a string), getting object addresses and offsets (numbers) from that, then converting those into strings to build a command string, which then gets parsed back into numbers for the debugger to ultimately use to create a watchpoint? I think that is itself a good example of how the "more code, more bugs" principle can apply: all this superfluous conversion code has introduced a bug.

Here's a good article about that, although it doesn't mention the situation where the bugs you introduce end up being in the software you need to use to remove bugs...

[http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-best-code-is-no-code-at- all...](http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-best-code-is-no-code-at-all/)

<comment><USER3> > IMHO when debugging software needs to be automated to the point that a > library needs to be written (and itself debugged),

I've hacked plenty of GDB. It's just a program like anything else. Why wouldn't you want to debug it? There's nothing mystical or special about it. When you combine th features you describe with code (which are, in fact, quite non-trivial) with code to look up symbols, deal with remote gdbserver instances, papering over extreme differences between operating systems and executable formats, you end up with a very complex program that has the same maintenance needs as any other.

<comment><USER4> Of course you_can_do_everything_in_assembler.

Nobody discuss about mystical or special in debug a debugger, but everything is about to invest lot of energy and time. Even launching GDB is a pain. And theres's a reason why many research live debugging using Smalltalk. When you debug a debugger you want as much as reflection as possible and Smalltalk has reified almost all of the internal machinery (see for example Moldable Debugger).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> He identified a bug in the function `evaluateIntegerExpression` which parses an integer literal from LLDB, erroneously always parsing in base-16.

But the pull request he created ([https://github.com/facebook/chisel/pull/117](https://github.com/facebook/chisel/pull/117)) didn't fix that; instead it just replaced that function call with manually parsing the literal in the one specific place he was having problems with.

Did I miss something there? That seems like a really weird "solution". Why not just fix the original function?

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right. I put in another pull request to fix the original function, but that's not yet been accepted. [https://github.com/facebook/chisel/pull/122](https://github.com/facebook/chisel/pull/122)

<comment><USER5> Ah, cool, I hadn't seen that. Good work and I liked your post!</comment></comment></comment>