Virtual Reality Doesn't Need a Killer App to Get Huge - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2014/12/oculus-doesnt-need-killer-app/ <comment><USER3> VR is a pretty high-friction way to interact with a computer. And by VR, I don't just mean head-tracked goggles like lots of people seem to think the word means.

There's an entire industry about to be formed (again) with the headset as the start-point. All manner of haptic feedback input devices, audio equipment, "walkers", and more, will start to become required to make the experience more immersive. Before long big portions of people's home offices, rec rooms, and living rooms will be taken up by all this stuff and big chunks of their bank accounts will be drained by it.

I think it remains to be seen if the experience is worth all the expense and fuss. We simply don't know at this point, but hopefully it really will all be better than the last go around.

<comment><USER4> _> VR is a pretty high-friction way to interact with a computer.

>I think it remains to be seen if the experience is worth all the expense and fuss._

I would turn your comment around and argue that 10 million years of evolution weren't focused on producing a homo sapiens sapiens example that could best drive a mouse and keyboard across a 2D interface.

The fact that we've acquired some facility with doing so is a testament to our generality rather than the suitableness of the interface.

Why is VR important?

Because it's a gateway to immersive interface patterns than allows our brains to more fully flex their innate resources. I'll make you a $2 bet we both chuckle that this question was even asked in 25 - 50 years. Historical reference: initial reaction to the "mouse".

<comment><USER5> I might suffer from a lack of imagination - but prior to direct reading of thoughts from our brains - I don't see how "VR" will be any faster than input mechanisms we are already very familiar with. Think about a perfect VR that simulates reality flawlessly. You've only moved the goalposts. You are still stuck with the problem of how a user indicates their intentions to another agent (computer in this case - maybe a clever one). Are we going to turn virtual steering wheels? Use virtual pencils? I can certainly see some niche cases (virtual sculpture?) and video games will of course be better - but in terms of efficiency of input I don't see something better than keyboard + mouse before we get to mind-reading. Hell, I can even type almost as fast as I can speak. But maybe I'm unusual and keyboards will become a sort of estoeric form of input.

<comment><USER4> Well, there's the superficial argument to "input mechanisms we are already very familiar with" \- given that we as a community are probably drastically undervaluing removing typing as a prerequisite skill for computing.

However, if we're using a human as our black box (e.g. input via eyeballs, output via fingertips), then I'm admittedly more excited about VR from the input side.

To make a hardware metaphor, the additional sensory channels can be looked at as feeding functional units in our brains that are hitherto being underutilized. Adding or widening channels takes us into SIMD interface design. (I wrote superscalar, but that sounded like a terrible buzzphrase)

The caveat and challenge of course is whether or not these new resources can be effectively utilized. At least for anything less trivial that a richer consumptive experience (no offense intended to anyone in the multimedia industry).

<comment><USER6> Remember when the "multimedia industry" used to be called the "CDROM industry"? It's kind of silly fetishizing the storage medium or the input device and ignoring the expanded definition of "reality" that "moving the goalposts" afforded.

While wondering how the term "virtual reality" will be thought of in the future, I am reminded of this dialog from the Pirate Bay trial:

>"When did you meet [Gottfrid] for the first time IRL?" asked the Prosecutor. "We do not use the expression IRL," said Peter, "We use AFK." "IRL?" questioned the judge. "In Real Life," the Prosecutor explained to the judge.

>"We do not use that expression," Peter noted. "Everything is in real life. We use AFK – Away From Keyboard." "Well," said Roswall. "It seems I am a little bit out of date."

If what he did was not in real life, then why did they lock him up in a real prison for it?

Why don't we call the real world we interact with through keyboards, mice and 2D screens "virtual reality", even though some people who are a little bit out of date would claim it's not "real life"?

Is an expression of approval any more real and less virtual if I express it by clicking a "Like" button with a mouse, instead of looking at it, nodding my head, smiling and laughing? And does whether or not I have an HMD strapped to my head when I do that effect the sincerity of my expression?

If everything is in real life, then instead of "In Real Reality", maybe we use something like "AFR - Away from Rift"?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Since we are currently working with VR technology (Unity Engine 3D world+Rift+XBox controller) it's pretty interesting how rather trivial issues can be quite challenging.

One example: When doing usability testing it's pretty common that people get dizzy or can't use the glasses for 5 minutes+ (which in my book means...pretty unusable). Even fiddling with some of the recommended settings doesn't help all that much. So our next step there is to figure out a good prescreen ("carousel sickness" seems to correlate)

It's also interesting that after some preliminary/very quick research, VR is often either not compared to other options at all or compared to non-tech solutions (typically for training applications) whereas the comparison that I expected intuitively (Rift vs. 3D engine with just a controller) is rare.

It's fun fiddling around with this stuff and I'm looking forward to learning more about it in 2015 but my initial reaction is...sceptical. I may have access to a CAVE next year though :D

<comment><USER8> One really interesting thing I've found is that people are more forgiving of something like Google Cardboard. They are also sometimes more excited by the fact they could see themselves buying and using a cardboard set + mobile device tomorrow vs the Oculus.

One architect who I showed some VR demos to told me the Oculus looks so cool and intense that it's sort of a let down when you try it on and feel nauseated. The cardboard on the other hand looks so cheap that when you try it on it surpasses your expectations. So if you feel sick you're more forgiving since it is after all just a piece of cardboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> "VR Is Not Like Other Tech"

Yup. Just like all other tech.

</comment><comment><USER10> Which will never be put to the test because it already has at least two killer apps[1][2].

[1]: [https://robertsspaceindustries.com/](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/) [2]: [https://www.elitedangerous.com/](https://www.elitedangerous.com/)

</comment><comment><USER11> The arrival of hand tracking will help make VR headsets a lot more interesting. Leap Motion has a VR attachment: [https://www.leapmotion.com/product/vr](https://www.leapmotion.com/product/vr)

Here's a sensor based product: [http://controlvr.com](http://controlvr.com)

Finally, the Nimble VR Kickstarter project got acquired by Oculus even before funding was finished:

[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nimblevr/nimble- sense-b...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nimblevr/nimble-sense-bring- your-hands-into-virtual-reality)

<comment><USER12> We are a startup [1] working in this space (hand tracking) for some time and it's been an interesting experience. Most of the hand tracking is done either using cameras (vision/image-based) or sensors (gyros/accelerometers).

Leap Motion is already developing a product similar to Nimble VR. Control VR intrigues me but my gut feeling is it'll be a while before their products are available on the market (see Myo band for example, it took a while for them to fulfill the orders and the product still has some issues based on the last hackathon I attended)[2]. Regardless, it's an exciting area (bit niche) but hopefully there will be a solution soon.

[1][http://www.breqlabs.com](http://www.breqlabs.com)

[2][http://www.betakit.com/team-raisins-wins- sportshack-2014-tor...](http://www.betakit.com/team-raisins-wins- sportshack-2014-torontos-first-sports-wearables-hackathon/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I get the point of the article that VR needs to be interesting enough for the early adopters to do something interesting with it. That much seems to be happening.

What has to happen is something that is good enough to drop the $200-400, plus other accessories. Realistically you're talking about a $500-1,000 purchase, which is still in the niche category.

When VR gets down to $200-300 total, it will be more interesting for the average consumer. That being said, every technology platform needs a killer app.

For PC's it's still Office, Web, and Email. Smartphones are web, email, and photo/social apps. Game consoles are usually one franchise game like Call of Duty, Halo, Mario.

I struggle to think of a significant platform without a killer app or a big hook.

</comment><comment><USER14> Virtual reality isn't about "escaping reality." If anything, this technology makes it possible to relive your experiences, and, much more importantly, show somebody else the inside of your own mind, both of which are reality-affirming activities.

<comment><USER15> No it is exactly about escaping reality. It's literally fooling your sense of sight and hearing with with more believable simulations than ever before, so much that we now use the term "presence" to describe the feeling you get when your reptilian brain believes you actually are in the place the headset has transported you to.

It's the culmination of thousands of years of technological escapism that began with literary fiction and has progressed to movies and video games. But this new evolution promises to be the most potent form of escapism yet due to presence.

Whether escapism can be used healthily is a different question, but it is certainly escapism. Right now the technology is still primitive, but we do need to begin to ask important questions about the priority we place on the real world vs simulations. As we work towards brain computer interfaces, we must decide the proper balance between inhabiting, playing in, and working in the real world with its unbreakable physics and rules and the virtual world where we may change the rules of the game whenever we wish and many constraints are mutable.

<comment><USER7> I disagree with this. The most successful applications that I am aware of are in realms where reality is being reproduced and not escaped. The key advantage is that variables in those worlds can be changed and/or stuff isn't as dangerous while still being realistic.

While escapist and fantasy worlds are fun and very much thinkable (and the line is pretty blurry if you think of the use of VR in therapy for example) reproducing reality is very much "a thing".

Domains that come to mind are: medical training specifically surgery and training for miners.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I agree with this article -- VR is so fundamentally compelling that even saying it needs a "killer app" seems to miss the point. Did TV or radio need a "killer app?" Certainly at the time there were major things TV or radio were applied towards that helped get them into the mainstream, but at the core TV and radio were inevitably going to spread throughout the world in some form.

<comment><USER17> Radio's killer app was rock and roll. TVs was the soap opera.

<comment><USER18> Maybe we're defining "killer app" differently, but over 80% of US households had a radio in 1940, a decade prior to the start of rock and roll.

I think of "killer app" to be something that drives the adoption of the platform or whatever. "Why should I buy a PC? Oh, because Lotus 1-2-3 is awesome." Nobody was buying radios because they wanted to listen to rock and roll music; they all already had radios.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> In the long-term, VR will be big. In the short-term, augmented reality will be the way to go imo. --Walking down the street during lunch time and the restaurants you pass each display their Yelp rating. Social media updates displayed over a person's head as a "thought-bubble"\--

<comment><USER20> > In the long-term, VR will be big. In the short-term, augmented reality will > be the way to go imo

augmented reality is a much harder problem to get right than vr (hmd vr that is)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> To really hit the mainstream and get huge, VR needs to address the "hype" build-up in new technologies. What I find singularly unique to VR over the last few years is the announcement of one breakthrough company leapfrogging another with just spec details, videos, and big funding. First, there was tons of excitement with Oculus with Carmack joining. But then Magic Leap seems to have developed something even better. Perhaps something new is about to be announced beyond Magic Leap (only in a video demo of course). It makes the mainstream consumer not want to purchase with the fear that something new is going to put the hundred dollars of payment to waste.

Perhaps, VR companies would find the Apple secrecy approach valid. Only releasing real products that are ready to be shipped in mass production within a few months timeframe.

<comment><USER22> >> "But then Magic Leap seems to have developed something even better."

Do you have some sort of inside information, i.e. having experienced the Magic Leap? Because I don't think any of the publicly available information can be used to make such a statement.

<comment><USER8> I think this is part of the "hype" mentioned in the original comment. All the press seems to imply Magic Leap is creating a lightweight wearable capable of allowing someone to focus on different objects in a scene and with retina-like resolution.

I think seeing articles that sensationalize the $500k investment or call it an "Oculus Killer" are what cause some of this hype. Although, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a bad thing because VR isn't consumer ready yet and all these articles are creating an early buzz around VR. So in that sense, it has gone pretty mainstream.

<comment><USER23> $500M

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> to those of you who have an oculus headset: how do u use it? i used it for a few demos, but cant really see myself be bothered to use it often.

<comment><USER25> Simulators seem to be in the Oculus' wheel house at the moment. It's a coveted item in the iRacing community and I would imagine flight sims are the same.

<comment><USER26> It works so well in Elite Dangerous that many, many players are buying the DK2 and don't play a minute without it

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I showed my Oculus running the Tuscany demo to an architect last year and he was absolutely fascinated by the possibilities.

<comment><USER28> There are actually already a few startups exploring this space. One of them [1] sent some employees to speak in November at the New York VR Meetup [2]

[1] [http://www.floored.com/](http://www.floored.com/)

[2] [http://www.meetup.com/Virtual-Reality- NYC/](http://www.meetup.com/Virtual-Reality-NYC/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I'm sorry to say this, but pr0n is the only thing a technology needs to get really big. So indeed.

<comment><USER30> Is there any technology success that can really be attributed to porn? People often cite the adult industry leading to the popularity of video recorders, the VHS format, digital cameras, the internet, online payments, etc, but _really_ porn had a very small part to play in their successes.

The idea that VR will take off because of porn seems ridiculous. VR's primary benefit over screen technology is immersion and interactivity in a scene - <USER2> interactive porn has been a dismal failure.

<comment><USER31> Immersion in porn is a huge deal. I could see this making dating less attractive for a lot of people and as VR progresses and becomes more and more immersive it will become harder and harder to see or feel the difference between porn and reality, but porn will always be cheaper and easier to get.

BTW don't confuse not being able to see or feel the difference with not knowing the difference.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Usable BCI and there will be many great apps

</comment><comment><USER22> The article mentions a certain type of naysayer, lacking in vision, that has also bothered me for some time. How could you not see the potential for VR? It _seems_ so obvious, I have difficulty explaining it. It's like trying to explain vision to the blind. What sort of culture differences there must be to make communicating this idea so difficult.

At the same time, a lot of VR enthusiasts bug the hell out of me, too. They have their pet project and they think that's the _only_ thing worth doing in VR. It's going on in this very thread right now: strong opinions on what is and is not VR and any dissent otherwise is foolhardy.

People who talk about "oh, augmented reality is the only way the hardware is going to make it, VR isn't enough." Or the folks who insist that "only a PC- based platform will work, thus it is doomed, because the PC is doomed" or "only a smartphone-based platform will work, thus PC-based work is doomed." Or "you should be working on virtual tourism apps, that's the only thing people are going to want to buy, hardcore games are too small of a market to worry about."

That might be even worse than the visionless naysayer problem, because the complete skeptic is most likely only so because he is ignorant, whereas these guys are quickly becoming a new form of religious zealot. I'm still waiting for the doom of the (PC|console|mobile|casual|hardcore|client|server|centralized|decentralized|what have you) market that has been predicted ever since I can remember. And regardless of what will be the _most_ popular, why should one ever preclude the other? The market is vast and diverse! Work on what you want! Failure to find a market is not proof of the lack of a market.

I'm actively working in VR right now. We talk about "the community", but there is no community. There's very little interpersonal support. I think everyone has a fear that, unless they are the first to market with a killer app, then they are doomed to languish in obscurity and aren't going to make anything important. Maybe it's because everyone thinks it's going to be like the smartphone app market gold rush. If you don't get in early, there will be no money for you.

And it's a good point, if you forget that the bulk of the app market is junk. Of course the 200th compass app isn't going to make any money. Yes, Flappy Bird shouldn't have been such a runaway success. But it was just another Pet Rock, and that lack of predictability in the market should be a sign that the consumers _aren 't_ completely jaded yet and _are_ looking for novel experiences. Who would have predicted the success of WhatsApp, which got started long _after_ everyone declared the gold rush dead?

What I see is that the majority of the VR developers right now are going down much the same road of style over substance, cranking out a ton of apps versus spending time on a quality app. Part of that is timeline: we've only just now reached a point where anyone could have had enough time to develop something meaningful. But I fear that part of it is just the way we've trained developers to act, with all of the cheesehead "growth hacking" and "SEO" emphasis over solid art and engineering.

And I know, I'm engaging in criticism when complaining about criticism. But come on, you have to be able to see the difference. Let's make a real community of _developers_ , not petulant children all trying to one-up each other. Let's try to learn from the mistakes of our past and try to be inclusive, not exclusive.</comment>


The unofficial Google shell - <AUTHOR> http://www.goosh.org <comment><USER2> That's cool, but I like the Google Command Line interface even more:

<http://code.google.com/p/googlecl/>

I was blown away the first time I edited Google doc using vim, hit ":wq" (save), and saw my changes reflected instantly in my browser, where I had opened the same document.

The Oauth authentication was also pretty cool. Instead of asking for your Google credentials every time / saving them on your machine, the first GoogleCL use opens a browser window, prompts you to log into your Google Account, and asks you to authorize the Google CL client. You may then revoke this permission at any time (like any Oauth token).

<comment><USER3> I played with googlecl for a bit and quite amazed by what it can do. However, in order to use vim as the editor, the user has to always append '--editor vim' to the command line, which feels a little awkward to me. I want more than that, say, it would be great that those google docs are actually files!

A quick google search turns out there exists always a project doing that --- <http://gdatafs.sourceforge.net/>

"Gdatafs is a FUSE implemtation that mount picassa web and youtube to your filesystem. An experimental implmentation of google docs is also avaiable in trunk. "

<comment><USER2> I think you can specify a default editor in the googlecl config file: <http://code.google.com/p/googlecl/wiki/ConfigurationOptions>

You can also specify document-type specific editors ;)

The beauty of googlecl is that, since it's a command line tool, you could always fall back on using a bash alias / bash function, if all else fails.

<comment><USER4> Would certainly be nice if it listened to the EDITOR environment variable for a default :/

<comment><USER2> Actually, now that I'm at home, I just tried it... and it _does_ default to the EDITOR variable. Just tried it by setting the variable to vim and then to nano.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hi, I made this some years ago. In fact it was the reason to sign up as a hacker news user :)

I didn't had the time to update it, so some things are broken (login, auto complete). And the open source project never caught traction.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, I notice

su -;rm -rf /

doesn't delete all the data from Google's datacenters...

(It was worth a try, right?)

<comment><USER5> I fixed this after the first time ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> You might be a UNIX geek if:

You type "cat news" and then are confused that the results involve felines.

<comment><USER8> or you fat finger "cat mews"

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm just shocked that something that uses a Google search API survived for more than 2 years.

</comment><comment><USER10> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1025039>

<comment><USER11> Here's how I see reposts. I agree that people shouldn't just repost things because they were popular at one point, and they want the karma. However, realize that for people who weren't around when that was posted (over a year ago), this is pretty cool. There is also no way I would have ever thought "Hey, I wonder if there is a shell-esque interface to google? Oh, I bet HN will have a link about it! Let me go search!". So, I think when spaced out enough reposts are good. Over a year seems like long enough to me.

<comment><USER12> I disagree. I want to see _new_ stuff. There's plenty of _worthy_ stuff that in /new that does't see the homepage because shit like this reappears every 6 months/1 year/whatever.

 _edit:_ emphasized what kind of stuff in /new

<comment><USER13> Well new stuff to you might be old stuff to me. Unless you've looked at every single submission on this site, no need to complain. Just don't open the link or comments.

<comment><USER12> It's really hard to use the site with that mindset when 15/30 of the submissions on the front page are resubmissions. I'm not sure if that ratio has ever happened, but it certainly _feels_ like it quite often.

Other articles that make it feel that way that I wish I could just eliminate all together--anything talking about Node.js, productivity related (how I fooled myself into working), "how can I learn to program." These all seem _way_ too common for my tastes.

I'm not against any of these topics, in moderation, but regardless of what anyone says, the community that has grown here over the past years has become dominated by those with poor taste.

<comment><USER14> You are projecting your own preferences. You don't like Node.js stories, I'm sure an equal number of hn users prefer those. I also highly doubt that half of the home page are resubmissions, based on the fact that a lot cover recent news (see the Apple iPad coverage for instance).

So either come up with your own filters, but don't try to push them on everyone else here. We are diverse enough to enjoy a bit of everything.

<comment><USER12> No way! I wrote an opinionated comment? How rude of me!

> So either come up with your own filters, but don't try to push them on > everyone else here. We are diverse enough to enjoy a bit of everything.

Are you suggesting that if I build filters I not share them with the community?

I think the point I'm _trying_ to make is that Hacker News is no longer one size fits all. If I have to spend my time here searching amongst the crap to find something I want to read, it's just flat out not worth it. I've already started going back to Reddit much more often, because of their subreddits (after years of maybe once every 6 months or so browsing).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Pretty Awesome. I'd love it even more, if it had auto-complete on the command- line too.

</comment><comment><USER16> Looking at the svn repo (<http://goosh.googlecode.com>) this project is over 2 years old.

<comment><USER17> Or to be more precise, over 2 years not updated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I've made something like this for DuckDuckGo, but haven't released it since I want tab-completion (uses a static list for now). Will release as an official UI once DDG gets search suggestions.

<http://dhruvbird.com/tty.html>

Edit: There is no GA tracking on this page even though I use to for my site (other pages) - to keep with the general privacy experience of DDG

</comment><comment><USER19> I love the use of the url fragment.

Type some commands and hit the back button a few times.

</comment><comment><USER20> Very cool. `man login` says that you only see the username we type in. How are you authenticating?

<comment><USER19> I'm guessing it all happens client side from the browser.

<comment><USER21> I don't want to "guess" that. I'd like it really spelled out. I tried "login" and got a 500 from a debian server. I wouldn't send my credentials through some random server just because it was on HN.

\--edit: I was wrong, it wasn't a 500 error, it was a 404. I don't want to cast too much suspicion here, just making a point about being appropriately paranoid about giving out my creds. This site could be totally cool, I want it transparent to me before I login.

<comment><USER22> I'm assuming it's trying to load an OAuth screen - but the page is broken so won't even work to begin with.

<comment><USER23> login => 404 The requested URL /_ah/conflogin was not found on this server

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Wow I've been thinking of writing something very similar lately using nodejs and parsing the html (maybe using lynx --dump). But this is pretty much as good idea and blazing fast!

<comment><USER25> Like this? <https://github.com/fictivekin/webshell>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Appeals to the inner command line in me. Needs a spell command to make it complete for me :)

</comment><comment><USER27> I enjoyed this quite a bit. Set it as my new homepage.

</comment><comment><USER28> If it's unofficial its 'An' instead of 'The'

<comment><USER29> Not if there's only one unofficial entry in this field. "The" entails that the following noun phrase uniquely identifies something, not that it's been endorsed by some entity.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> email@example.com:/web> calculate 1 inch in m Error: could not calculate that.

:-( fail. But still a really great concept!

</comment><comment><USER31> cool !

</comment><comment><USER32> typed pwd got search results.

<comment><USER33> Confirmed. Same here. Also, options for ls don't seem implemented.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> cool

</comment><comment><USER35> goosh goosh goosh...

</comment><comment><USER36> Fun

</comment><comment><USER37> Gah. _"sudo make me a sandwich"_ returns actual results.

There has to be a few easer eggs.

</comment><comment><USER38> 'su root' doesn't seem to work. It just shows search results. I'll file a bug report.</comment>


Ask HN: Best way to manage all of your startup's accounts? - <AUTHOR>

It's really starting to be a pain to manage and remember all these accounts (Twitter, Github, Google, Slack), is there anything that makes this really easy?<p>It's annoying to have no secure, central place to store these. <comment><USER2> If you use Mac you can use keychain to save all those passwords. If not you can use password manager.

1Password and LastPass is a good alternatives. Both of them offer hosted service where you can sync all your passwords. This is really needed if you have several team members that need access to these passwords.

AFAIK the service also allow you to save ssh private keys. in case you also need to save lots of keys

<comment><AUTHOR> I took a look at Meldium, what do you think of that?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Related note: Look into 2FA methods, especially for the higher-profile things. Avoiding getting your bank account or domain hijacked or your code stolen because you made it to easy for an attacker is worth the slight inconveniences.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have all my accounts on 2FA already, Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> 1Password: [https://agilebits.com/onepassword](https://agilebits.com/onepassword)

Create an "Identity" for general stuff, and tag everything else with [startup name]. Done.

</comment><comment><USER5> I have used Keepass (Classic) for years. [http://keepass.info/](http://keepass.info/)

<comment><USER6> I'm using KeePass too.

Mind to not accidentally go to .com instead of .info.

<comment><USER5> Is that malware? If so how evil - they make it almost look like an innocent site (although the big download now button looks a bit dodgy!)</comment></comment></comment>


HHVM versus PHP-FPM 5.4 vs. PHP-FPM 5.5: performance comparison - <AUTHOR> http://mattiasgeniar.be/2014/08/07/hhvm-versus-php-fpm-5-4-and-5-5-performance-comparison/

<comment><USER2> To get a more accurate benchmark you should probably do higher then a single concurrent connection, and 100 requests.

That's why you only saw a single core being used. Because it can be different optimizations between the different PHP VMs that have different outcomes with lower concurency values.</comment>


Tell HN: Every YC Interview Experience Ever Discussed On HN - <AUTHOR>

A couple hours and 99 pages later of Google search results for "interview site:news.ycombinator.com", I have a database of all 25 blog entries of YC interviews ever discussed on Hacker News.  Here they are: http://ycuniverse.com/interviewees.php<p>I have nothing to gain by sharing this.  I'm not trying to sell anything.  Hopefully, these blog entries will help interviewees perform better.  As YC interviews for YC S11 are still ongoing, I look forward to reading more of these experiences. <comment><USER2> Thanks for gathering all the links in one place.

I think this is stuff for the front page, since I can imagine that this list may be interesting for a lot of people, and the front page is way more frequented than /ask. Maybe you want to post a separate link for the front page, i.e. a direct link to <http://ycuniverse.com/interviewees.php>?

</comment><comment><USER3> Thanks for posting, i've been building up a bookmark folder of these and this will be even better. I think there should be some kind of sorting of articles in a library format. So those interested in YC or what ever subject can find a curated archive.

</comment><comment><USER4> Clickable:

<http://ycuniverse.com/interviewees.php></comment>


How do you practically limit data collection without becoming a digital hermit? - <AUTHOR> 	In the face of frequent data breaches and widespread data collection by aggregators like Google, FB, Amazon, etc. how do you protect against companies building a thorough profile of your life against your will? I'm not talking about extreme anonymity here. I'd still like the ability to use social tools, Google services, etc. to the extent practical. Are there any straightforward steps that can be taken to fragment the data that is collected about me? Some examples:
Can I use Google Maps on my phone without it logging my location to Google servers?
Can I use Instagram, Facebook, and Whatsapp independently so that my usage and connections aren't shared between the co-owned services?
Is it safe or reasonable to allow a service like Mint or Personal Capital aggregate my financial information?
Are there services that I should just avoid entirely due to breaches of trust or too much data aggregation?
How do you manage your digital identities? <comment><USER2> Hi i believe for each service there is probably already some version that does not collect your data you just need to find it.

FB is unique but you can just share the bare minimum.

Also cant you use anonymous browsing by default? or TOR</comment>


Is Google+ just one big SEO play? - <AUTHOR> http://www.tmprod.com/blog/2011/is-google-just-one-big-seo-play/

<comment><USER2> I think Google+ is the glue to connect all of google services (next to search). Imagine Mail, Photos, Music, YouTube just tied together in one place. It's not about SEO.</comment>


WeWork Looks to Sell Private Jet, 3 Side Businesses - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-26/wework-looks-to-sell-private-jet-3-side-businesses <comment><AUTHOR> I was desperately looking for a short-term furnished apartment / long-term hotel in Manhattan and spent ~$4k month for a studio at WeLive. The leasing process was worst than most traditional NYC landlords. Point being, it's an overpriced dorm for adults who want to "network" / make friends. If you're looking for this sort of thing in NYC, look into "ALTA+ by Ollie". The leasing staff there actually treat you like a customer, instead of you trying dozens of times to contact WeWork's leasing / management office.

</comment><comment><USER2> I'll be in the minority and say this is a mistake.

>WeWork is also planning to sell three businesses acquired in recent years: event organizing platform Meetup, office management startup Managed by Q and marketing company Conductor, according to the person.

Despite the debate over WeWork being a tech company or not, they WERE taking an interesting route that other companies have taken, which is to own their software stack, and not just eat their dogfood, but license it to competitors as well. I thought We's ambition to own/build/compile a building management stack was ambitious and forward thinking. We becoming the Microsoft of building management seemed feasible, because up until them it was a bunch of disparate parts. Them buying things like Fieldlens seemed inspired. Shedding the parts that numanagement doesnt like, instead of integrating their software into a WeSoft365 is a step towards turning We back into a pure realestate play, and being a software company would have been their competitive edge, differentiating factor, and risk aversion of future obsolescence.

The thing We did wrong was to not merge its businesses faster. When Adobe or Microsoft buy something, the first thing they do now is lightly rebrand it, and throw it into a bundle. High paying customers then get that new product for free, without prices going up. And in MSWorld, because everything is built on Nav, Sharepoint, and Exchange, data flows freely between their products. We would have benefited from a unified identity and storage across its products. Sign your building up once, get Fieldlens and Managed by Q and everything else theyve bought in the last 5 years.

IBM survives by constantly shedding its legacy businesses and reinventing itself. We is shedding its reinvention.

<comment><USER3> There was an article this past day or two criticizing We, with an "old vs. new" business model graphic as Exhibit A of how fucked up We is. Except I looked at it and said, "I dunno, looks reasonable to me." Because it was a graphic of just what you describe: take disparate parts, put them under the We umbrella, profit. To me, _that_ wasn't Exhibit A of their fuckedness, it was what might have saved them if anything was going to. Exhibit A is what you allude to: I had forgotten We bought Meetup until you mentioned it. Now why, as a person immersed in the tech industry, was I allowed to forget that?

EDIT: "...are looking to focus on _WeWork's main business_ of leasing office space, refurbishing it and renting it out to businesses on shorter terms." (emphasis mine)

Oh, man, they are so doomed.

<comment><USER2> Id love to see that article if you find it.

I see it the same as Stratechery sees Amazon's Whole Foods acquisition. (see last chart) [https://stratechery.com/2017/amazons-new- customer/](https://stratechery.com/2017/amazons-new-customer/)

Amazon didnt buy a grocery business, it in housed the largest customer of its grocery services business (suppliers and supplies.) WeWork owning the BuildingManagementOs would make their rental business their largest customer of building management software services, one that could sustain it until it was big enough to be its own thing that doesnt need WeWorks rental side anymore, for the OS div to be profitable.

<comment><USER3> This one, second graphic down (after the bro pic):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21071890](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21071890)

<comment><USER2> Wall Street and the Fifth estate are being too skeptical here and fucking up what could be a pretty radical change. They just cant see past the way things have always been.

The question shouldnt be "is We a tech company" but "how close could they be to becoming one." If they have the potential to be the closest to delivering, thats worth something. How can they not see the value in owning all the building blocks and being in the process of assembling them. Using real estate cash flow to fund building management software seems like a pretty fucking smart business model.

(that all said, it does seem like We sucked at offering a cohesive software suite, not sure whos fault that is engineering, marketing, org structure etc.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Bizarre. Meetup is the perfect match for bringing new customers. They will pay more for customer acquisition if they divest this.

</comment><comment><USER5> [https://outline.com/PAFXej](https://outline.com/PAFXej)</comment>


TLS Encrypted Client Hello (formerly ESNI) Enters Draft Status - <AUTHOR> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-esni-07 <comment><USER2> This is a puzzling submission. On the 1st of June an updated eSNI draft, draft-ietf-tls-esni-07 was published with a new name reflecting the approach of encrypting more of the Client Hello rather than just SNI, but "draft status" isn't a thing, except in the sense that a draft either exists or does not, and this one exists.

This Internet Draft was formally adopted by the TLS working group in 2018.

If you have valuable technical input for this work, or indeed any of TLS, you should subscribe to the TLS working group, familiarise yourself with the culture and pitch in - but there doesn't seem to any particular reason it's more relevant to Hacker News today than last week or next month.

<comment><USER3> This makes it sound like following the work of IETF is an idle task, and all required is to subscribe to a mailing list, but neglects to mention this inevitably means following endless overlapping and often redundant discussions on multiple mailing lists, that routinely span bi-annual periods. Nobody has time for that unless their job gives them a direct stake in protocol and architecture work. This describes probably much less than 1% of the people found on HN.

Meanwhile there are few mechanisms to popularize the results of standards groups aside from occasional sexed up vendor blog posts (for example, CloudFlare are great at these). I see no problem with this extra visibility, and find it quite perplexing that someone would have reason to complain about it.

<comment><USER4> The complaint is more "the title of this link does not reflect anything about how the IETF works or the status of this particular revision of the draft rather".

If you're expecting to get any value from this hacker news story, you need to understand enough of how the IETF works to know what meaning this particular draft has as opposed to any of the previous 6 revisions.

<comment><USER2> > the previous 6 revisions

Seven, or, depending on how you squint, eight :D

Draft numbering starts from zero: [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls- esni-00](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-esni-00)

And also the number resets if (as happened in this case) a draft is adopted by a Working Group and acquires that "ietf" in place of an author's name, so the predecessor to that zero zero draft was ekr's draft-rescorla-tls-esni-00.

<comment><USER4> Well.... yeah. If I wanted to be a smartass I would be saying something like "the 00 when it got adopted into the working group is important" though, unlike random changes before wglc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Posted 9 days ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23430934](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23430934)

BoringSSL ticket for implementation: [https://bugs.chromium.org/p/boringssl/issues/detail?id=275](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/boringssl/issues/detail?id=275)

Chromium ticket, blocked on above: [https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109140...](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1091403)

</comment><comment><USER6> If we trust DNS to publish the SNI public keys, why don't we trust it for the website certificate in the first place?

<comment><USER7> Is getting an bad sni key a terrible risk? What kind of data would it leak?

<comment><USER6> The certificate will still have to be verified at client-side with the CAs. I know my idea will break the entire TLS flow but I am just talking about the validity of it in the first place.

<comment><USER8> Was just thinking about that.

ESNI just protects the name of the site you're visiting. It's going to be most useful to reduce the amount of data available to bulk snoopers like ISPs or mass surveillance efforts.

But there are lots of ways traffic analysis can uncover data. They can look at request sizes, timing, IP addresses - and critically, your DNS requests. ESNI is an incremental protection that is not expected to be perfect. Just reduce the amount of "low hanging data" that can easily be plucked from streams.

If an attacker can snoop or hard MITM your DNS they know what site you are visiting anyway.

So under the kind of threat model that makes sense for ESNI to be useful there is no real downside to distributing the keys over DNS.

Actually I just had a look at the RFC and this explanation is redundant because they did it themselves in section 7.1: [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls- esni-04#page-21](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-esni-04#page-21)

In contrast the existing CA infrastructure is intended to protect the content of the user's communications in basically all malicious networking scenarios: DNS hijacking and MITM in particular. The threats that the existing CA infrastructure are meant to protect you from are quite different.

However, there is no reason I can think of that you couldn't distribute the certificate for say, foo.com (signed by existing CA infra) via DNS instead of sending it in-band. I believe you could make the protocol "work" this way.

But DNS is not such a great protocol for sending big things like long certificate chains (in contrast to more svelte naked keys for ESNI). It would not be as good as sending it in-band and the security would be rather worse (more prone to disruption / poisoning / DoS), with more metadata leaked (eg certificate exchange is part of encrypted handshake in standard TLS).

The main semantic difference I can see is that usually the server chooses what server certificate to present; DNS distribution would be more like the client choosing what server cert to use due to DNS eventual consistency. As a practical concern, servers would have to support all valid certs until expiry or introduce additonal negotiation. Servers would also need to figure out which cert the client actually chose, somehow (either by trial decryption or client signalling). Anyway, not TLS as we know it anymore.

It's subtly (but not fatally) worse along several dimensions and I keep thinking of more ways it's worse as I've continued to edit this comment. Last thought: an attacker could easily force you to use an old (but not yet expired) cert. Again I guess the DNS-CA-TLS franken-protocol would have to work around that with additional mechanism (perhaps something like OCSP stapling).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> As a user, I will continue to favour websites that do not use shared hosting. They do not require SNI.

SNI is an interesting experiment. One could argue it benefits users because it has made it less expensive for websites to provide TLS, and therefore there has been more use of TLS, however at the same time it takes users a step back in terms of privacy. Before SNI, SSL/TLS websites never leaked hostnames. Even a user who is using "encrypted DNS" (not the DNScurve kind) or who is not even using DNS at all (she already has the server IP address) ends up leaking hostnames when she accesses websites requiring SNI. That's all of Cloudflare and many other hosting providers/CDNs. The whole exercise makes it trvially easy to track the usage habits of users by sniffing the plaintext TLS setup traffic. Whatever was gained by using SNI to achieve virtual hosting for TLS must be offset by the amount of user privacy sacraficed.

Not surprising one of the sponsors of this draft is an enormous user of SNI in its hosting business.

ESNI is a noble idea however it is riddled with complexity. As a user concerned about leaking hostnames, nothing beats a good old-fashioned TLS website on a decicated IP addresss. There are still plenty of those around.

<comment><USER10> If each dedicated IP address is associated with a single hostname/certificate, then wouldn't it be relatively straightforward to map connections to a specific IP address back to a known hostname?

You can probably just probe the IP on port 443 and look at the certificate subject to characterize that traffic.

Might work for very obscure sites, but not anything commonly used.

<comment><USER9> Of course. I have seen this argument before. When we say "relatively straightforward" what is this relative to? SNI did not make possible what was previously impossible. It made something that was always possible much easier and more reliable by creating a new method -- sniffing ClientHello. There is no such thing as "absolute" privacy on the internet, (IMO). There never was and there will never be. HOwever if our threat model is marketers/advertisers, the dichotomy, if we choose to view the issue that way, is "easier/more difficult" (on a mass scale) not "possible/impossible". Is it easier to passively sniff ClientHello from network traffic on a mass scale then to connect to 443 on a massive number of computers (or rely on someone else to do it)? Or is it more difficult? One method generates zero traffic and requires relatively less computing resources. The other method generates an inordinate amount of traffic, enough to trigger complaints from internet provider, and requires more significant resources. Today, we have both methods available. Before SNI, the additional, easier method did not exist.

However, to be fair, I think there could be an argument regarding websites now using TLS with SNI because of the cost reduction of shared TLS hosting that previously were only only using TCP. Before they started using TLS, arguably hostnames could be sniffed from HTTP headers. Whether pulling hostnames from HTTP Host headers is easier on a mass scale than sniffing ClientHello packets, and whether anyone would do that for marketing/advertising purposes, is for the reader to decide.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Prometheus fork for cloud scale anomaly detection across metrics/logs - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/zebrium/prometheus <comment><AUTHOR> Anil from Zebrium here. We provide an Autonomous Monitoring service that until now has used logs as the source of our anomaly detection. We wanted to augment this by correlating log anomalies with anomalies detected within a group of related metrics.

Since Prometheus is very popular in Kubernetes environments, we wanted to support discovering and scraping Prometheus targets and send those scraped metrics to our software running in the cloud for anomaly detection. Latency is important to us as we need to receive the metrics in near real time as they get scraped. We also need to preserve labels, types, and full fidelity of time stamps for anomaly detection and log correlation purposes. And we need to do all this while being as efficient as possible in sending the metrics over the wire, as this data will be going over the WAN from a user's Kubernetes cluster to our software which is running in the cloud.

To achieve all of this, we have built and open sourced a forked instance of the Prometheus server and a new remote server that collects metrics. Quick summary of what we achieved: near real time metric updates, preserving of valuable information such as labels and types, ability to handle out of order samples, greater than 500x bandwidth reduction. You can read all about it in this blog: [https://www.zebrium.com/blog/a-prometheus-fork-for- efficient...](https://www.zebrium.com/blog/a-prometheus-fork-for-efficient- cloud-scale-autonomous-monitoring) or in the github repo: [https://github.com/zebrium/prometheus](https://github.com/zebrium/prometheus).

<comment><USER2> Why a fork rather than contributing this back upstream?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. We started with fork, so that we can contribute back to upstream in the near future.</comment></comment></comment>


Stack Overflow Salary Calculator - <AUTHOR> https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/19/much-developers-earn-find-stack-overflow-salary-calculator/ <comment><USER3> Beware: the Stack Overflow Developer Survey is not a scientific survey. Participants are self-selected, not randomly sampled.

For true random sampling of the software developers in the United States, use the Bureau of Labor Statistics, who employ real statisticians:

[https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#15-0000](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#15-0000)

You can also break them down by U.S. state:

[https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm)

And by MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area):

[https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcma.htm](https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcma.htm)

<comment><USER4> As an interaction/ux/product designer, I always find it odd that government forms never have a relevant job role in any of its data. They lump us in with graphic design. :/

<comment><USER5> Why do you find it odd? A "a interaction/ux/product designer" did not really exist 10 years ago or wasn't very popular. Do you think the government moves at the pace of a Silicon Valley startup updating job titles every year?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> That was terrible UX. After searching for the link (why not place it at the top?) which can be done easier and clearer. I filled everything in, then it turned out the location was not supported. So I took the bigger city in the area. Then I got the message

> We don't support this location. Select a location from the dropdown menu.

There is no dropdown menu. I then hovered over the I icon, to only _then_ learn my country is not supported.

<comment><USER7> Same thing happened with me, then I saw the error:

"You have exceeded your daily request quota for this API. For more information on usage limits and the Google Maps Javascript API services please see: [https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/...](https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/javascript/usage")

<comment><USER8> Ah, they're still using the dev key for Google Maps eh?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Apparently the only types of developers are front end, back end, 'full stack', mobile, desktop, and game. I don't fit any of those.

And only _three_ locations available in the US? How is this useful? I suppose this tool is awesome if you're a web or mobile dev in Seattle, SF, or NY.

<comment><USER10> >Apparently the only types of developers are front end, back end, 'full stack', mobile, desktop, and game. I don't fit any of those.

Do you build houses then? ;)

<comment><USER11> Production, Site Reliability, Machine Learning and AI, Security, Network, as some other examples of software developers.

<comment><USER12> Genuine question: what does a Production Software Developer do?

<comment><USER13> In my last teams it was a lot of infrastructure. Deployment, disaster recovery, failover, provisioning, build processes, maybe even building the testing pipeline, etc.

Can't speak for other companies

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> But where in the form do I put in the fact that I use spaces instead of tabs, to let them know that I should be making more?

<comment><USER15> Location: "San\tFrancisco" ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Biggest factor is where you live... because we all know that people are paid according to the value they create, and bits forged in places with high rent are inherently more valuable.

<comment><USER17> Apparently, it's more profitable to pay developers nearly twice as much, than it is for a VC or CEO to take a airplane flight a few times a year.

<comment><USER18> Or it's theoretically worth twice as much to locate your company near the big tech companies. Can you really not entice people to move out to another city? Say Kansas City, which is quite pleasant. If they moved to K.C., a company could afford to pay devs the same salary as in San Fran, pay for devs to fly to a couple conferences each year, and give a bigger holiday bonus-- and they'd still come out ahead with the tax burden, office rent, support staff, etc. So is a hotshot dev from San Fran really refusing to move to K.C. for the same salary? They must know that their disposable income would double if they moved. I've been to both cities, and San Fran isn't that much better.

<comment><USER19> I think the problem is that most people don't get offered the same in cheaper areas, that money gets absorbed by the company. Even if you argue that the actual take-home is cheaper, people aren't as good at evaluating those things, and SF etc sound like more fun. I say this as a dev in SF. I frequently skim different locations in the US and abroad and SF usually is highest paying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Seems inaccurate for SF.

It was saying that half of devs were making less than $90k for 3 years of experience. I find that hard to believe. Yes, maybe that's the listings but I think it's insane to think you get paid that when almost every company here past seed stage will pay $100k+ for any new dev.

<comment><USER21> Maybe inaccurate for the Bay Area in general.

It said $146k or so was 75th percentile in the South Bay for 5 years of experience, but I am at the second to lowest level of software engineer at my company (which is one of the biggest tech employers in the area) and my base is $160k.

<comment><USER20> You're at a big tech company. The salaries at FB, Google, LinkedIn, Apple, etc. all tend to be much bigger than at non-big-tech.

<comment><USER21> That was the same base salary I had at a startup just prior too.

<comment><USER5> You are one datapoint. Again, take that survey with a grain of salt. Like someone mentioned above, if you want real data just go look at bls.gov or get a rough idea at h1bdata.info and search by city

<comment><USER22> h1b doesn't include equity which is almost half of most people's compensation in the big companies.

<comment><USER5> hence why I said rough idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I thought of myself as somewhat overpaid, but the 50th percentile for my job/location/experience was $5k off from my actual salary. Now I want to check out the listings. Part of the point, perhaps?

<comment><USER24> > Part of the point, perhaps?

Of course it is.

Glassdoor, Indeed, Angelist... all those have these salary calculators to attract inventory (your eyeballs, my eyeballs) that they then turn around and sell as product on their job listing boards.

<comment><USER25> Except these estimates seem laughably low.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The Salary chart is interesting, both because of how US developers earn more than other Western countries, but mainly how a median developer with 20 years experience earns 60% more than a first job developer. I wonder how many other professions have that low a rate of pay increase - or maybe its just grads are overpaid, not sure.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, the numbers are weird. I'm in SF, full-stack, with 20+ years of experience (and leading several successful exits), but I can't seem to get a job making as much as a mid-career developer (according to that calculator).

To be fair though, I don't have time or patience for long interview processes. But, on the other hand, a lot of times I get rejected just after the phone screen (with no feedback, of course).

<comment><USER28> I could coach you if you want, I'm also in SF. I do a lot of those interviews from the other side. You can get my contact info in my user info page.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> What a missed opportunity to gather data on all the countries they don't support yet by at least allowing you to see how you are vs the supported countries and using the data to start supporting more.

<comment><USER30> There is a bit on the side to add your own salary which shows countries unsupported by the main search

[https://i.imgur.com/Hb9sMig.png](https://i.imgur.com/Hb9sMig.png)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Upon using the calculator, the Location won't fill in properly. Looking at the console:

> You have exceeded your daily request quota for this API. For more > information on usage limits and the Google Maps Javascript API services > please see…

Wow, either the calculator is incredibly popular, or someone didn't change their api key from their dev one…

</comment><comment><USER32> As usual, failing to take into account equity and bonuses makes this less useful. Salary is <= 50% of the story for most senior roles.

<comment><USER33> I'm sorry, but I think this is much better for not including funny money from startups that give private equity grants, at least I in the lower bands of the range.

I know people for whom half their pay is equity and they can't even afford to take the options. And for many places I've been, the stock was never sellable outside of shady private stock trading groups that your board may or may not let you sell to.

<comment><USER34> Yeah, but not everyone's non-salary income is funny money from startups. I work at a Fortune 100 and get stock grants (not options, but actual shares) as part of my compensation. It's real and I can trade it that day (and pay high taxes on it), or hold it and trade it later.

<comment><USER33> I had this situation at my last employer and yes, if it's a publicly traded company the situation is different.

I don't see why you felt the need to make a fresh anonymous accont to share this?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Apparently, knowing assembly _decreases_ your salary: [https://imgur.com/a/8c9fL](https://imgur.com/a/8c9fL)

<comment><USER36> I'm going to bet that "knowing Assembly" is (in this case) a proxy for age. Older devs are more likely to know it, and older devs face enormous amounts of discrimination.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> I'm surprised they don't have a box at the bottom, after you get your results, that says, "How did we do? What is your current salary?"

<comment><USER38> There's a box above the graph that asks: "Is this accurate? Please help us improve the Salary Calculator by adding your salary"

<comment><USER37> Yours must be different than mine:

[https://imgur.com/a/xCsE9](https://imgur.com/a/xCsE9)

<comment><USER39> Directly to the right of where your screenshot is.

<comment><USER37> Not for me: [https://imgur.com/a/agXEb](https://imgur.com/a/agXEb)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Why does SO seem to completely omit "backend engineers". I don't work on web stuff, I write network applications/cloud services.

There are a lot of folks similar doing that at amazom, google, etc.

Does this seem like a huge oversight to anyone else?

<comment><USER41> No embedded engineers. No graphics work. No UI work. No keywords for things like "microcontroller", or "driver", or "Linux".

<comment><USER42> And no security engineers either.

<comment><USER43> It's much rarer than development roles. Doubt that they have significant data.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Yeah, apparently I'm underpaid by half...

<comment><USER45> How do you figure that? If you are in the 50th percentile?

<comment><USER46> 50th percentile i guess is the "fair" wage

I'm ~30% lower than the 25th percentile... :/

<comment><USER47> I'm at the 25th percentile (in Canada). In my case I'm not in a tech heavy area so can't job hop to get the usual raises. I imagine in the states the numbers probably vary more too.

<comment><USER48> Remote work

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Lol... My base salary at a startup is 50% more than the 75th percentile for Seattle. Also, coffeescript is listed as a distinct technology? Makes no sense to me.

<comment><USER49> Yeah, also machine learning cannot be added in the skills section.

Not sure what happened here. Stack Overflow generally puts out better analysis and posts.

<comment><USER15> > Not sure what happened here. Stack Overflow generally puts out better > analysis and posts.

My guess is that they don't have enough data for niche topics like ML. (ML is still pretty niche in terms of headcount compared to, say, webdev.) The tags that they offer are probably those where they have reasonably many data points to actually get something resembling a distribution.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> My country isn't supported :(

Also a lot of technologies seems to be missing, like .NET.

<comment><USER51> Yeah, they also didn't include a lot of proprietary platforms. For example if you have 5+ years of customizing and implementing a specific enterprise platform you're probably highly in demand, but it's hard to approach that from a "developer salary" point of view.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> This "calculator" really makes me appreciate the higher salaries in NYC compared to other places. Yes, the cost of living is higher, but if you are willing to commute 30ish minutes a day from outside of Manhattan, you can avoid a lot of the cost.

<comment><USER53> I'm in the UK, but I've always thought of moving to NYC one day (despite the man in government at the mo).

Is it really only a 30 minute commute into Manhattan?! I live in Bristol, and at times I've had an hour commute by bus. I always assumed that Americans spent longer on commute in the larger cities.

<comment><USER54> Currently in Brooklyn, NY, it's 30 min to lower manhattan on this side. On the NJ side, it's probably about the same from Hoboken/Jersey City.

<comment><USER55> even in Greenpoint/Williamsburg/Bed-Stuy/Hoboken you're still paying 1500 a month to share with a few roommates though.

<comment><USER56> I thought Williamsburg was more expensive than most places in Manhattan now? You can find a ton of cheaper places in Manhattan (still expensive) if you are willing to go farther north. But then you have to deal with a longer subway trip. It's odd that commuting to midtown from Stamford, Connecticut is about the same from Inwood, Manhattan. If you don't mind an hour commute, and you work in midtown, metro north is really good and Stamford and the areas around are really nice and much cheaper. You can buy an actual house.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> If i am not mistaken the salaries given for the US is what the company actually pays, but the salaries given for France it's not what the company pays. We (the french) discuss our salaries in 'brut' (gross) and are never aware of what we actually cost. The company will pays something (close) up to 42% more of this gross value. So i suspect the difference between US salaries and French (and probably german, uk) is unfair.

</comment><comment><USER43> Would be nice to display the UK numbers in GBP and the European countries in EUR. The numbers in dollars are meaningless.

</comment><comment><USER58> Data scientist scores top in the chart. Funny to find later on that the author calls her self data scientist as well. To me this is little off putting. It is like a doctor claiming that doctors are the most healthy people. Which might be true, but strange, don't you feel? ;)

</comment><comment><USER59> Wow apparently i'm underpaid. I make $63k as a full stack .NET web developer in Knoxville, Tennessee. I have always dreamed of moving to Seattle and joining a startup. How can I make that dream a reality? I've tried applying to a bunch of places and got nothing but rejections.

<comment><USER60> startups generally do not use .NET

<comment><USER59> what should I learn then?

<comment><USER61> Ruby, Golang, Serverside JS (aka NodeJS) or Python would be a start

<comment><USER62> Startups do not use Ruby anymore as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> For some reason the form lets you have 'negative' years of experience - <USER2> that a thing?

<comment><USER64> I suspect that I've got about negative three years of experience in Java 9, and a good negative five years of experience in C2022. To be honest, though, I don't expect to ever have positive years' experience in Perl 7.

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> The meager wages for full stack and backend developer are correct for where I live (Vancouver, CA) except the lowest tier is not low enough. It would be nice to see the raw data too so I can run my own stats on them. Give this calculator a public API

</comment><comment><USER66> Data science is less than devops on average? That doesn't sound right...

<comment><USER67> Many/most of the "data science" posts on StackOverflow are actually "data engineer" or "machine learning engineer" positions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> Seems broader than I expected. Entered several different roles, technology, etc in the calculator and got pretty much identical results. I am in Chicago though, that might have something to do with it.

</comment><comment><USER69> I am guessing salary are yearly total?

Lots places uses salary as a monthly unit.

<comment><USER25> Not in the US they don't.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> The 5 supported tags thing in their form leads me to believe I am undervalued.

Cuz uh, I checked 13 things conseratively that I'd feel comfortable talking about in an interview.

</comment><comment><USER70> How much do programmers, devops, etc make in China? I've always wondered, because I think that's where everything is headed in terms of wage parity.

</comment><comment><USER71> Meh, garbage. I always see these things that are significantly off, by like $60,000 or more. You're not asking the important questions that relate to earnings:

\- Were you born in America or has your employer held your pay down because you have a green card?

\- How many times have you changed jobs (each time probably leads to a $15k bump or more!)

What garbage. If you're going to do an analysis like this try to teach us something interesting by looking at numerous factors (race, sex, age, major, do you have a github, public speaking skill, number of raises asked for, etc)

<comment><USER67> I'm so sorry that someone created a free tool to explore an interesting and unique data set using basic summary statistics. Shame you had to waste your time looking at that kind of garbage.

Of course you make good points about salary. But this is just using data from the SO jobs board. What do you expect?

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> One thing I was confused by: if I check the box that I work remotely, do I put in where I work from or where my company is based?

<comment><USER73> Company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> Not really an exhaustive list of positions... Anyways the figures for my area are well off and I suspect London-tainted.

</comment><comment><USER75> According to this I'm making about 15% under the 50th percentile. Time to go ask for a raise?

</comment><comment><USER17> Anyways, it's a good example of how to do inbound marketing. It certainly worked on me!

</comment><comment><USER76> The salary stated is at least -10,000€ below what I get paid and my coworkers.

</comment><comment><USER77> I have used indeed.com/salary just to get a ballpark idea

</comment><comment><USER78> DevOps is the highest?! Whaaaa. Can someone explain why DevOps is the most paid?

<comment><USER79> Higher pay in exchange for being on-call, I'd guess.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Is anyone using Microsoft Teams? - <AUTHOR> We are considering moving from Slack to Microsoft Teams, if anyone is using it here, can you share your experience with it? <comment><USER2> Microsoft is smart to build their own Outlook killer, and they certainly succeeded in freaking Slack out[1]. We (SpiderOak) evaluated teams as competitive research when building Semaphor [2] (our own end-to-end encrypted alternative to Slack/HipChat.)

I found Teams to be a credible offering. It's shortcomings are mostly about being very new (e.g. no linux client yet, some unpolished UI associated with window resizing.) The O365 integration is nice. The client seems to be built using Electron and TypeScript, and if the pace of development maintains I expect it will be a serious threat to Slack. Of course Slack and Teams require trusting the vendor with your unencrypted content.

[1] [https://spideroak.com/articles/slacks-morning- after](https://spideroak.com/articles/slacks-morning-after)

[2] [https://spideroak.com/solutions/semaphor/business/tour](https://spideroak.com/solutions/semaphor/business/tour)

<comment><USER3> Wow, what a negative, condescending article.

<comment><USER4> I first thought this was a flip comment and then read the article so I could laugh at mdekkers. I was the dumb one: spideroak's article actually _is_ amazingly condescending.

<comment><USER2> For context: it's in response to Slack putting a very condescending 1 page ad in the NYT addressed to Microsoft.

[http://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/theres-a-major-problem- with...](http://www.inc.com/justin-bariso/theres-a-major-problem-with-slacks- full-page-ad-in-the-new-york-times.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> We're using it. It is bad. Company just started to introduce Salck, MS announced this thing and we had to jump ship because everything they deliver is considered flawless in certain circles.

The mobile app is crap. There's no Linux client. No 3rd party integration that I've seen so far. Lots of bugs and I highly doubt that this project will move/improve at a VS Code level. A beta for your corporate communication needs.

The only upside? It might replace "Skype for Business" which is worse than almost anything else.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a very active issue in my day to day business right now. If I could, I'd stay the hell away from Teams.

<comment><USER6> You do know it is still in preview right?

Also I use the web client and it works for me, although have to agree it would be nice if the mobile app had access to some of the tabbed content. What else is wrong with the mobile app from your perspective?

Finally, here is the API reference if you want to look at it: [https://dev.office.com/microsoft-teams](https://dev.office.com/microsoft- teams)

I am looking forward to when they integrate Flow with Teams. That could make things interesting, given all the 3rd party apps that Flow supports now.

<comment><USER5> I know that it is in preview, which is why I'm so upset about the idea of adopting it at this point. Seriously: I'm ranting about this product because it is unfinished and unpolished, but obviously the blame for adopting this thing lies in this company. I wouldn't criticize it that much if I'd be able to watch the painful first steps as a bystander..

You use the web client? I assume you mean teams.microsoft.com? The URL that I see nowhere in my notifications etc? Every notification mail links to a landing page that wants me to download a "native" client (even if none exists for the platform I'm on). Notifications also never include any details: They say "Look, you missed stuff on our service. Come back!" instead of actually.. providing any information. The web client has quite some bugs, a fun one is opening a document (which embeds a 365 viewer, I guess) and resizing the window. Last I checked the document view cannot grow. Lots and lots of issues like that.

That API site? Yes, I've seen that. I think last time I checked you had to submit your stuff to let MS decide if it'll be part of a non-existent future "app store" thing. At least for Office365 hosted instances?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> My opinion(1), after playing a while with MS Teams:

The pros : the product is quite good, let say it is good enough and much better than the status quo of relying on emails or Whatsapp. It is integrated with the Office suite, and if I understand correctly, will be free for pro Office users. It has a handful of very interesting product decisions, like threaded replies and iframe apps.

The cons : MS Teams is not as polished as Slack, the UI (especially of the chat area) is not as clear. The installation/onboarding is not as fluid. They have less apps and integrations (obviously, this is just the beginning).

My guess : MS Teams will not even begin to make a dent in the almost 100% market share of Slack among startups, agencies and similar small, agile groups. The whole Office ecosystem is simply to heavy, the UX is not as great, and some integrations might be missing. On the other hand, it might win big in the entreprise segment, where Slack is less present, and where being in the Office family is not seen as a drawback but actually an sign of solidity

(1) I am an independent dev, working on an app for their platform, so this is an educated guess based on my testing. I will enable Teams to connect with each other or with Slack teams through shared chat (www.smooz.io/microsoft).

<comment><USER8> The problem with the product is that it really exists to keep big companies on the O365 E3+ plans.

Microsoft's big focus now is to retain subscription revenue. Skype and OneDrive are shit and MS is trying to bulk up the ecosystem around these products. If you work for a big company, you're not going to get approval to POC Slack, Dropbox, Webex, etc as long as you're stuck with the Microsoft all you can eat subscription.

Slack is a killer threat because it displaces email. Exchange has always been the glue that holds the biggest Microsoft cash cow together.

<comment><USER9> OneDrive ( then SkyDrive ) used to be awesome. A folder showing all my files, including the online only ones. Then they ruined it. I still don't understand why.

<comment><USER8> They have a compulsion to recycle parts that are there. OneDrive is SharePoint, so you get much of the baggage that comes with SharePoint.

They also offer feature parity with on-prem SharePoint, which kneecaps the product. The main point of that product is to block Box or Dropbox sales.

It's only now getting better, in the form of a mobile app on Windows 10 only.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Yes, adoption is still an issue for us as it is in a pre-release phase and we have too many options (yammer, email, outlook groups, slack etc) but it's very promising. Once they officially launch it that will help (hopefully) provide a clearer product direction.

It's pretty feature rich for an app in "preview".

It's also free, and I like the tabbed experience. Bringing in Microsoft Planner, some document libraries and PowerBI makes for a pretty compelling story.

Microsoft haters will never use it, but plenty of digital teams may get forced to use it if their IT team have already purchased Office365. And it's not that bad once you forget it was made by Microsoft.

Slack ought to be worried.

<comment><USER10> >we have too many options (yammer, email, outlook groups, slack etc)

and thats the million dollar problem. year after year microsoft announces a new product / "best practice" as THE way to collaborate.

The sharepoint team is clawing back power after being pushed behind the scenes for a bit.

How can you be confident enough to move forward with groups when the sync client just started working, and they already are pushing out something new that is nearly identical!

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> We're slowly rolling it out to individual product teams in our small (~50 people) ms-based dev organisation. Things are going reasonably well.

We'd have picked slack over teams in a minute, though it has compliance issues making it unusable for us - slack is just more polished and has a lot more that you can get out of the box / with plugins. That said, teams still has some great features for us, so we'll stick with it for at least 2017. We've tried a few similar options before (primarily group chat) but they all had gaps / issues that resulted in them being not as useful/used as we'd have liked.

There are still a couple of massive gaps in teams for us:

* No on-premise TFS integration

* It seems that Office 365 is all or nothing - we can't tie the o365 account to our primary email address without it messing up external email routing.

If you're trying to replace a culture of email + some IM + files tucked away in some document management system that don't get updated as frequently as they should, it's a good start. If you've already got good communication then it's less valuable.

<comment><USER7> Good enough product vs crappy status quo + massive Office userbase = will probably end well for them :-)

<comment><USER11> That's pretty likely. If people don't know how to use collaborative tools, they get frustrated and give up, so a successful product can't alienate its userbase. Skype teams is familiar enough for the email generation to use, but still improves slightly on communication.

There's a huge market out there that's scared of Slack etc, but will love Skype Teams.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Our company bought into Office 365 ecosystem and Teams was a natural choice to try. We haven't used Slack or similar tool before.

Well, Teams allows discussions, but at least in November its built-in Skype for Business (SfB) client worked exactly like the other SfB clients work: not at all well with others. (Serious issues with race conditions on how the server sends the messages to what client, with several listening clients everything turns into a mess!) Given that it wasn't working for us to run ordinary SfB plus Teams, we had to drop it. Can't say I'm overly depressed over this decision... ;)

If Teams's SfB client gains the features the original SfB lacks, or alternatively if Teams would allow to disable SfB part of the software altogether, it might have been workable. I personally didn't like the intrinsic delays the chat process have unlike say IRC (feels very much realtime even though the delays are there under the surface).

There's no info on what updates Teams has seen so we've kept to our original comm channels for the time being.

<comment><USER10> >(Serious issues with race conditions on how the server sends the messages to what client, with several listening clients everything turns into a mess!)

This makes the mobile client nearly unusable in its current incarnation. I can be sitting on Facebook on my desktop and Messenger on my phone and alternate each sentence between each device. I cannot pick up my phone and continue a Skype for Business conversation I was just having on my desktop. Cant transfer the existing conversation at all. It is almost, nearly, surprising how ill conceived and poorly executed the experience is. I end up switching back to outlook when a person and I want to have a conversation while we constantly bounce between devices, because our email works and syncs everywhere perfectly.

<comment><USER12> SfB (Lync) is terribly done in terms of the client-server architecture. Messages don't get consistently saved for offline recipients, the issues with several listening clients. For a business communications application, it sure seems a lot less suitable for business/corporate use than Skype Personal.

Yammer's another fiasco. Teams, on the other hand, might turn out to be very decent but the SfB integration brings it down.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> After using Slack on my team for about a year to get away from the annoyances of Lync/Skype for Business, management made us shut it down for not being an approved product/not defined by company policy/contributing to team fragmentation across other depts who weren't on it. Fair enough, I guess. We turned on Teams as it comes with our existing Office 365 subscription and we are much likelier to get approval to use it for cost and "Microsoft is a known quantity" reasons. I was excited for something that would finally help us transition into using anything better than Lync compabywide.

So I was disappointed with the chat experience, the notifications, the way my colleagues still using Lync wouldn't consistently get my messages, and the way groups vs private messages are displayed. We all found it really frustrating to use.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'd be interested to know why any smaller orgs / teams might consider moving since I see this as Microsoft's way of cashing in the on the Enterprise market who are loosely aware of Slack but entirely comfortable with having it blocked.

</comment><comment><USER15> I can't even find their pricing page. Clicking Free Trial and they are already asking me for information when I don't even know what it costs.

I guess it's startup unfriendly and only marketed for enterprise.

What made you want to switch from Slack to Microsoft Teams? How large is your team? Curious to see the responses to this thread.

<comment><USER16> The trick is that it's is part of Office365, you can't buy it separately. But for a few bucks you get a coherent suite of many products, Microsoft Teams just being one of them. So it does not have to be greater than Slack, just good enough, since you bought it anyway with your Office365 subscription.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I once did Client work that required certain data protection practices. Can anyone speak to Microsofts draw in that regard. Is it up to the standard you need if you work at a hospital or something like that?

</comment><comment><USER18> I switched from slack after 4 years and I honestly can't say I've missed any features.

</comment><comment><USER19> Sounds like a good question for [https://reddit.com/r/sysadmin](https://reddit.com/r/sysadmin)

I don't mind the discussion here, I just feel like you might reach a more specific and bigger audience there.

</comment><comment><USER20> I think slack should charge on per user basis for any number or team, instead of having to pay for the same user in two different teams.

I also think there should be cheaper/better competitor for slack in the market.

<comment><USER21> You won't get cheaper AND better. There's already a _ton_ of competition.

Cheaper exists (everything from IRC to HipChat to Mattermost to dozens of Slack clones[1]); you're more than welcome to use any of those. The reason people don't is because Slack is the best (great UI, works well, lots of integrations, network effect, etc).

[1] [http://blog.capterra.com/the-top-13-slack- alternatives/](http://blog.capterra.com/the-top-13-slack-alternatives/)

<comment><USER22> Hi @gkoberger, Mattermost team here. Thanks for the mention.

I'd share that Mattermost has gotten popular as a Slack-alternative recently. There's hundreds of contributors and we're now available in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Spanish, Portuguese, German, French, Dutch and Russian--whereas Slack is English-only.

Also, the open source community has added many features Slack doesn't offer, like threaded messaging, multi-team accounts, markdown support, etc. See: [https://www.mattermost.org/what-slack-might-learn-from- its-o...](https://www.mattermost.org/what-slack-might-learn-from-its-open- source-alternative/)

Right now, Mattermost is most popular among IT organizations looking for an open source, private cloud messaging solution they can control and customize, and we're branching out from there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Yea. We moved to it in the office. We used ryver for a while, looked at slack, but, given we are on office365 and are a Microsoft shop, it was an easy move. So far, so good.</comment>


Ask HN: Books/Articles on Social Networking and Game Theory - <AUTHOR> Hi HN,
I'm interested in reading more about the psychology of social networking, particularly in regards to how they might relate to rewards and game theory.
Anything to do with examples of how businesses are using game related rewards such as points, levels, and achievements to reward user interaction with the site and build communities centered around a service or a product.
I know they exist, but it's hard to find elements that combine the two.
Thanks <comment><AUTHOR> I'll start with one of my own, Croudsourcing by Jeff Howe <http://j.mp/anYbsR> (Amazon Link)

Just picked it up the other day after reading for a bit. I like the authors style as it mirrors that of Malcom Gladwell.</comment>


Mozilla tries ads in Firefox again, now powered by Pocket recommendations - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnet.com/news/mozilla-tries-ads-in-firefox-again-now-powered-by-pocket-website-recommendations/ <comment><USER3> They are loosing market share more and more and yet they go on with this stupidity.

Part of the market share loss is average users switching to Chrome - <USER2> can't do much about that, but the power users group is (or was) Mozilla's best asset, and yet they're pissing off that group with pretty much every release.

</comment><comment><USER4> Well shit. Who wants to bet on when the first ad-removal fork appears?

"now Firefox itself will offer new recommendations to sponsored sites based on your browsing history. It performs that assessment privately in the browser, Mozilla said." I don't believe this can ever be water-tight. Where do the ads get fetched from? Won't anyone who is able to snoop on that request (be it Mozilla, an ad network or (in case of an https failure) a third party) be able to deduce privacy-compromising information from the ad being requested itself?

Eg. If an advertisement is requested for a baby-crib (or a wider baby- category), you an as an advertiser deduce that the other end might (soon) be a parent.

The fact that Mozilla thinks it's able to preserve privacy by doing it in- house scares me. I don't want to trust _any_ company with my browsing history or the processing thereof. If Mozilla decides it's in the ad business itself, I don't care how they initially try to preserve privacy by generating profiles in the browser itself. They will become an ad company with the same perverse incentives as Google and all the other advertising companies.

<comment><USER5> I don't think anyone will make an ad removal fork because the ads are trivial to disable.

[https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- reco...](https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- recommendations#sponsoredstories)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Firefox was the last of the players that mattered that could still be described as a "user agent". That's no longer true.

</comment><comment><USER5> What the article doesn't mention is these ads don't show up if the "Recommended by Pocket" checkbox in the New Tab Preferences is unchecked.

[https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- reco...](https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab- recommendations#sponsoredstories)</comment>