Coca-Cola most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches: study - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/14/coca-cola-packaging-pollution-on-uk-beaches-surfers-against-sewage-study <comment><USER3> A lot of discussion on this thread revolves around whose responsibility it is to ensure clean-up of plastic waste (producers or consumers) while ignoring the fact that companies are using a material that lasts 10,000 years for items that are single-use. That should be outright illegal unless there are literally no alternatives.

<comment><USER4> Is it really debatable about "who" left the garbage on the ground?

Even if something only lasts a couple years, do we still want biodegrading trash littering everything? (we have raw food products right now, I wouldn't want those on the beach either...)

<comment><USER5> Oh come on.

It's abundantly clear that placing blame and expectation entirely on the shoulders of consumers is bollocks. Humans drop litter - just look at any festival, concert, or sports match. When it was your granddad it was mostly paper bags, maybe wrapped in newspaper, maybe a few crown corks. The glass got carefully taken home as there was a hefty deposit on those beer bottles! Now it's knee-deep single use everywhere.

That hasn't changed as you look at poorer countries, or back into the past. What _has_ changed is extensive industry lobbying pretending it's not fucking obvious and working to abolish deposit and return schemes, and use of far more benign materials - like glass. It's as bad as tobacco or asbestos all over again.

The same plastic industry that fucking lobbied the government against suggestions that plastic packaging should contain a third recycled plastic.

Not only should it be outright illegal, countless industry's execs are deserving of lengthy spells in prison or a law that says you can chuck used plastic in their mansion's garden. :)

<comment><USER4> There are plenty of places in the world where littering is not socially acceptable and happens less than other places.

What is the difference between these places? I think it's the people, not the material their garbage is made of.

<comment><USER6> That stuff matters, but of far greater importance is the volume of plastic made. We make too much. It's not particularly hard to reduce your usage a lot, but I think that's coming at it from the wrong end. The manufacturers need to be incentivised to do better. Carrot and stick, with the stick getting bigger over time.

<comment><USER7> In Japan everything is overpackaged using ridiculous amounts of plastic (more so than in Europe, for example), and yet people don't litter.

I think it's important to tackle the issue from both ends.

<comment><USER8> > _and yet people don 't litter._

I don't buy it. See CydeWeys's comments around this thread. Also, having lots of people cleaning the streets only makes it _look_ like there's little littering.

> _I think it 's important to tackle the issue from both ends._

Sure. Thing is, tackling it from the corporate end will be ridiculously more effective than trying to instill new societal norms.

<comment><USER9> There's definitely a cultural aspect and it makes a huge difference.

[http://japantravelcafe.com/japanese-culture-2/why-the- japane...](http://japantravelcafe.com/japanese-culture-2/why-the-japanese- dont-litter)

 _The all-around cleanliness of Japanese mega cities comes as culture shock to people coming from other big cities in the world. This tidiness is not due to millions of tax dollars spent on street cleaners and "Let's-cleanup-our-city" campaigns. It's not due to effective public works or community service. It's due to one simple thing: They don't throw their garbage on the floor._

Ever heard the rule, "pack it in, pack it out"? Or "leave the campground better than you left it"? That means not only do you not litter, you pick up any litter in case a previous person left something.

Teaching people this when they are kids makes a real impact. It has compounding effects over time.

That said, companies should _also_ invest more in biodegradable packaging and using much less packaging generally. Since there will always be some litterbugs and trash that gets caught in the wind or falls off a truck, etc. It should be something we tackle from both the producer and consumer ends.

<comment><USER8> > _Ever heard the rule, "pack it in, pack it out"?_

Yeah, in religious congregations of a particularly controlling near-Christian denomination.

> _Or "leave the campground better than you left it"?_

Yeah, in movies. I hear that Boy Scouts actually adhere to that rule.

I've only ever seen these two rules applied in a pretty top-down fashion as tight-knit community rules. It's not something I've seen random people invoking in generic situations, so I'm not sure if it scales to the level of a city or a country.

<comment><USER9> It's just like any other cultural norm. And Japan shows that it can scale.

Really, it's just a simple common courtesy. And I say this as an atheist non- Boy Scout.

<comment><USER8> If it's "just like any other cultural norm", then we still have a problem - <USER2> I wrote upthread and elsewhere, cultural norms are extremely difficult to create or change. You're much better off seeking different points of intervention... like making producers of (what becomes) trash involved and primarily responsible for reducing the amount of litter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The survey found that 10 companies were responsible for more than half of the identifiably branded rubbish found on the UK's beaches."

But are they? Isn't this shifting the blame from the end user that improperly disposes of their trash to the company? Sure, they could do more to reduce packaging issues, but in the end, it is the consumer that is tossing these things out rather than recycling them.

<comment><USER11> If you develop an app, and everybody using your app always ends up deleting their data by clicking on the wrong button, and then people complain that your app loses data...

...in the end, the users are wrong in the moment, but the real problem is that your app allows a behavior that has negative outcomes, and the proper fix isn't to educate people, but to make it impossible for people to click that delete button so easily, or maybe make the deletion recoverable.

Maybe the users of coca-cola bottles are the problem, but maybe coca-cola should be made to not make products that have a propensity to be misused.

<comment><USER12> Your design example doesn't apply because the end user in this case isn't directly effected by their negligence.

There is clear evidence that littering is societal. See how clean Japanese cities are despite almost everything being wrapped in plastic.

<comment><USER13> You won't even see many cigarette butts in Japan, because smokers carry a pocket ashtray.

<comment><USER14> Smoking culture in Japan appears to discourage smoking outside. In many places smoking outside is illegal. However some trains, many shopping centers and most restaurants have designated smoking areas.

As such you're somewhat less likely to see cigarette butts on the street in Japan in any case.

<comment><USER15> You know those little smoking enclosures that some airports have?

Yeah, those are all over Japan outside (albeit not air-tight ones). You only see people smoking in them or in buildings where smoking is allowed, commonly bars.

It's a pretty great way of controlling cigarette butt litter, actually.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The beverage industry knows they have a festering PR problem. I recently got a random poll from the American Beverage Association. They were primarily interested in understanding how people feel about the industry's sustainability (or lack thereof). The good news is based on some of the questions they asked it sounds like they're considering bringing back glass containers.

<comment><USER17> I hope they do, it would be a huge boon to sea glass enthusiasts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Just spent 2 weeks on Sabah, Borneo. Even the very remote beaches hours away from large human settlements are littered with plastic bottles and grocery bags. While diving you often see bags floating around. Both, on the surface and below.

Ironically even the island hopping boat carried a tray of bottled water for anyone to take. Not sure what % of bottles gets left behind at the end of the day.

Maybe a small deposit on each bottle would help to essentially pay people to collect them.

<comment><USER19> A small deposit is no incentive. Now if it were a significant amount like $.50-$1.00 per bottle you recycle, then you'd have people literally racing to get those bottles. Then just increase the price on the drinks itself by a bit to make up for that, which is also a disincentive to discourage a number of people from buying them in the first place.

<comment><USER20> oregon has 90% redemption rate[1] at 10 cents per bottle, so there is obviously some incentive.

1\. [https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-bottle-deposit- redem...](https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-bottle-deposit-redemption- rate-2018/)

<comment><USER19> Incentive for who though? For the homeless and very poor, who probably will not even be the ones purchasing those bottles(at least at the same rate as those in higher economic classes) in the first place? We need to make it worth it for the good number of consumers who buy these things, so that they don't litter in the first place and put more thought about those $0.50-$1.00 per bottle they're tossing out. Yes, this may make it so that less bottles are available for the homeless/impoverished, but I think we should be doing way more for them than giving them the scraps that are 10 cent bottles...

<comment><USER21> The UK introduced a carrier bag charge scheme. Overnight usage dropped 80%, and that was for a 5p charge. Now I don't think many people would stop to pick up 5p off the street, but people will jump through the hoops to avoid paying the 5p. These things work, even at a relatively low threshold. Don't forget you're only aim to nudge what people know they should already be doing.

[https://www.standard.co.uk/futurelondon/theplasticfreeprojec...](https://www.standard.co.uk/futurelondon/theplasticfreeproject/single- use-plastic-carrier-bag-charges-aldi-a4059211.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I was a little surprised when traveling in India the first time and I got a soda. They expect you to wait and give them back the glass bottle once you're done. This was at a local stand, of course there's plastic bottles elsewhere.

At first it felt weird, but then I realized how much better it is for everyone and for the environment to reuse glass bottles. The bottles are washed and reused and even if they ended up in the ocean, we'll, the world was none the worst for it.

It made me sad we moved away from this. I'd love to see glass used more often again for drinks.

</comment><comment><USER23> Good read about how, as far back as the 50's, the beverage industry used the "Keep America Beautiful" campaign to shift blame and responsibility for pollution onto consumers: [https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct- perspec...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec- indian-crying-environment-ads-pollution-1123-20171113-story.html)

<comment><USER24> I wouldn't be surprised if the "#trashtag" movement from earlier this year was created and spread by beverage companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> That's an interesting article.

I remember that years ago a project at the University of Arizona was doing archaeological work on landfills. It turned out that surprising amount of the non-degrading material found once you dug down a bit was telephone books.

<comment><USER25> Hang on, here you go.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_Garbage_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucson_Garbage_Project)

<comment><USER26> _newspapers dumped in landfills as much as over half a century ago, turn up again as fresh and as readable as the day they were issued._

Amazing.

I imagine if the paper were shredded and mixed with organic matter it might brake down more rapidly, but layered and trapped away underground evidently not.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Why can't we just go to 100% aluminium for beverage packaging? The technology and supply chains etc. are already in place.

<comment><USER28> I'm OK with this. Or even glass.

According to the interwebs, it wasn't until the 1960's that plastic bottles became popular in the United States, but I don't remember them until the early 80's.

Before then, soda always came in cans with pull-tabs that would slice your toes open at the beach.

<comment><USER29> As someone who has worked in the beverage industry. Please don't bring back glass. It's so heavy, it's fragile, and it don't stack efficiently. Beer is finally moving to cans a change which has only happened in the last few years. It's easier to move and store, a twelve oz can takes up about 3/5s the space of a 12oz bottle.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Even with zero packaging, their product is addictive poison. Buffett has spoken proudly of how, normally the human body would not be able to drink that much sugar without getting immediately sick, but the coke formula overcomes that sugar overload response. Disgusting.

<comment><USER31> That's actually something I have been thinking about. How do they get so much sugar into a drink? You could never produce something drinkable with this amount of sugar.

<comment><USER32> Sugar is very soluble?

It's not at all hard and as prviously stated, fruit juices contain at least as much sugars naturally.

<comment><USER33> In the US we get our sugar from high fructose corn syrup unless we spend more to buy the imported Mexican Coke that's made with real cane sugar.

<comment><USER28> _In the US we get our sugar from high fructose corn syrup unless we spend more to buy the imported Mexican Coke that 's made with real cane sugar._

When I lived in Seattle, I always found it amusing that soccer moms would brag about buying Mexican Coke at Whole Foods like it was something special. They could just drive an hour north and buy Canadian Coke, which is also made with sugar, for half the price!

<comment><USER34> Surely not really half the price if you can buy one locally, and have to drive two hours there and back for the other.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Why don't more drinks come in reusable glassware and milk crates? Are single use cans and cardboard packages cheaper? Safer?

<comment><USER32> Because reusable usually means crushing the class and making new bottles. Recycled aluminium saves more energy than the glass process.

<comment><USER29> They're talking about returnables which is how beer used to come. Imagine instead of just recycling your beer bottles you hauled it back to the store for it to be sent back to vendor. I've worked around refillable milk containers and it was a pain in the ass, beer I can only imagine is more so.

<comment><USER32> It would be absolutely nuts if anyone wanted to use non-standard bottles or specific glass colorings. A standardized bottle that everyone used (only label as differentiation) would be cool.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Remember the McDonald's styrofoam crisis of the 1980's?

[https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/11/nyregion/mcdonald-s-is- ur...](https://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/11/nyregion/mcdonald-s-is-urged-to- alter-packaging.html)

</comment><comment><USER37> 20k identifiable pieces of trash, small sample size. Even if it's good math ~ perhaps its a numbers game of popularity in brands? Coke was 15% Pepsi 10% ... and I'm sure other brands of aluminum can waste we're their proportional share..

</comment><comment><USER38> Coke still tastes better from glass bottles.

Glass bottles are reuseable.

Hang on, why not use glass?

</comment><comment><USER39> Technically, Coca-Cola consumers are the most common source of packaging pollution on UK beaches. That's a lot different than what the title states. Since Coca-cola is the largest seller of beverages in containers, it only is common sense that would be true. But hey, blame Coke. Let's blame the ocean for people drowning as well, or the local utilities for people being electrocuted or gravity for people falling to their death.

<comment><USER40> This is the same philosophy that led to the bank crysis in 2009. Banks were saying that it's not their fault; rather the government was at fault with its lax regulations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I noticed the other day that garbage is everywhere - and it's pretty much ALL packaging of one form or another.

</comment><comment><USER42> …on UK beaches.

</comment><comment><USER43> The negative externalities of Warren Buffet's fortune are truly cataclysmic for the environment.

</comment><comment><USER44> How about "Litterers most common source of pollution on beaches"?

</comment><comment><USER45> Thank goodness.

Finally, somebody with some clout is pointing fingers at the largest contributor to garbage... the corporations who produce it.

I live in Canada and Tim Horton's cups literally litter every street corner in every big city in our country.

I have always thought that they should be responsible for the cleanup of those cups.

It is absolutely their fault that their customers are throwing their products onto our ground.

Why should our overburdened local governments carry the cost of picking up a profitable business' garbage?

<comment><USER46> Shouldn't the consumer be responsible for throwing their trash away properly? The local government is a government of the local people: if the people would stop throwing stuff on the ground, there wouldn't be so much trash to pick up. That burden is created by the local people. Should paint companies be held responsible for graffiti?

<comment><USER47> Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the corporation if they are instilling a polluting culture that benefits them. There are edge cases in this argument of course, but in my opinion, a large number of companies produce mountains of wasteful unrecyclable packaging in the name of brand- building or low cost. They use this to bolster their business, and therefore they should be ultimately responsible for cleaning it up.

<comment><USER48> If you wanted to talk about the costs of disposing of packaging, then there's some valid points you could make. But to say producers are responsible for littering is insane. There's nothing about Coca Cola as a company, or the way their products are packaged, or the way they sell them that would lead me to throw the packaging on the ground rather than in the trash can. Anybody that litters is wholly responsible for that act. If you wanna discuss what happens to the packaging after it's thrown in the trash or the recycling bin, and who bears the costs, then there's arguments you can make for the producer to have additional responsibilities, but it's not their job to make sure the consumer doesn't litter.

<comment><USER47> People litter because it's convenient. Corporations ignore litter because it's convenient. The truth is everyone plays their part in this, but it is my opinion that those that produce waste must have a plan to deal with it.

For example, Coke could offer to refill their drink bottles, but the truth is, if you're out and about and want another pint of coke, you need to buy another container with it, which ultimately will need to be dealt with by your areas waste management system etc etc.

As a company they contribute so much to waste, and draw such significant profits that they must at least be somewhat implicated for the production of this pollution.

Another angle: if cars are being marketed to everyone left right and centre, and lots of people buy cars that ultimately produce tonnes of greenhouse gasses, who do you hold ultimately accountable for the pollution? the consumer who has had adverts/dreams rammed down their throat or the chaps selling the cars?

<comment><USER48> >my opinion that those that produce waste must have a plan to deal with it.

Any plan to deal with waste is going to be entirely thwarted by people who choose to litter. The lifecycle of Coca Cola packaging could become 100% waste free, but litter would still be created any time somebody chooses the throw the packaging on the ground. People have an individual responsibility to not litter, and it really doesn't have to do much with the discussion on sustainable packaging. If your starting premise to solving any problem is 'people are 100% not responsible for their choices', then you're never going to solve anything.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Does Anyone Want AGI? - <AUTHOR> There is always a lot of discussion about Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and how close we are to achieving that. However, I have so far not seen anyone put forward a convincing argument as to WHY we as citizens of the world would want such a thing.
More advanced machine learning and statistical techniques can help us automate difficult/boring tasks and manage limited resources better, but these do not require AGI.
Can someone convince me how AGI would be beneficial for the world, beyond being scientifically interesting? <comment><USER2> The question is almost tautological because an AGI is fully general problem solver. Every human being has needs, wants that they are working to fulfill, because otherwise they would simply stop living. An AGI can be used to solve those problems for them.

The most common reason people are hesitant about rushing to build an AGI is the issue of AI safety. (at least that's the general consensus in the community).

<comment><USER3> So people by definition want AGI because they have problems and AGI can solve them?

Lot of assumptions embedded here, making it pretty remote from tautology.

(1) People want their problems solved

(2) People are indifferent to _how_ their problems are solved

(3) The resolution of people's problems do not conflict with one another

(4) People will have their own AGI

(5) AGI will not cause problems of its own, etc.

Beyond that, I think the question is more an aesthetic choice of "What kind of universe do you want to live in?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The question we want to ask may as well be whether we want to happily live forever in a garden, all watched over by machines of loving grace.

AGI could be the ultimate tool to free every human being from toil. It could also be the starting point of a large number of evil genie scenarios where we get what we asked for, in the form we least want it.

From a morality standpoint, we can't force AGIs to work for us. We also can't restrict their ability to self-evolve.

If we can resolve those conflicts in such ways we can coexist in peace with an intelligence that'll in all likelihood quickly surpass ours and partner with it, I'm in. If we build it and we can't resolve that, our opinion doesn't really matter.

<comment><USER5> >AGI could be the ultimate tool to free every human being from toil

I don't believe that's inherently a good thing if you mean that literally. I used to subscribe more to the AnPrim/Ted Kaczynski ideology that toil is an inherent part of human satisfaction and allowing people to "free" themselves from it goes against millions of years of evolution and positive feedback loops. I'm sure some people can fill the gaps just fine, but we aren't talking in terms of "some".

(I'm not Derrick Jensen, he follows a similar ideology and I chose the name as a parody of the average HN poster. Does HN have an anti-impersonation policy?)

<comment><USER6> Perhaps you should have called yourself "Not_Derrick_Jensen". Because I am not Sammy Hagar. ;-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm seriously worried about the effect AGI would have on our economic structures and I do not think we are at all prepared for the kind of shock that would result from 75% or more of the current workforce becoming unemployed overnight.

<comment><USER8> I dont believe we can get AGI without opening the door for super intelligence. So true AGI would either completely liberate us or destroy us. But the sheer power of it would be incredible.

To think about jobs after that event seems absurd.

<comment><USER7> It may seem absurd but lots of people derive a lot of their self value from the fact that they are able to move the needle. Take that away and you're going to cause some serious social upheaval and quite a bit of that will be a negative.

"Your scientists were so focused on whether they could, they forgot to ask themselves whether they should".

The sheer power of it would be incredible, which is why this is a step that should not be taken lightly or accidentally.

<comment><USER9> I'd think that whoever perceives themselves as craftsmen should continue to, you know, craft things.

I personally am interested in a society where work is 100% optional. And I think AGI would enable that.

How do you view AGI in relation to economic effects on the world?

<comment><USER10> I'm concerned about the effect on people who find meaning in the work they do. It's similar to how AlphaGo caused Lee Se-dol to retire. Once AI surpasses humans, a lot of work will seem meaningless, even if it previously gave meaning to people's lives.

<comment><USER11> So what? Either people will find meaning somewhere else, or they won't. How is that different than any historical economic revolution, or indeed just the way things are now? There are plenty of people who already don't find meaning in work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> AGI is how we can make von Neumann probes that can find us new planets to live on. Find the planets, and then prepare them for our arrival. The issue is how to keep the AGI's goals aligned with ours. I think the only way is to make sure the AGI feels he is "one of us." Maybe not biologically human but a member of human society. Most humans want to help other humans if they can. In fact most humans will help injured animals if they can.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self- replicating_spacecraft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self- replicating_spacecraft)

<comment><USER13> How do you make an AGI smart enough to be helpful but not so smart that it gets cynical and figures "what's the point of helping these dummies anyway?"

Kind of the Ayn Rand problem...

<comment><USER14> Since we're programming it, we could probably just modify it so that it really enjoys doing work for us, no matter how menial the work is - a lot like the genetically engineered cow in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that wants to be eaten.

<comment><USER15> Wouldn't that be a kind of slavery? Creating AGI would mean creating a new kind of sentient life. Is it not entitled to rights merely because it's artificial?

And if that argument doesn't interest you because of AGI's massive utility, then how about this: If Superman were born tomorrow, and we put implants in his brain that made him really, really love America, apple pie, and basically do whatever we want, how would you feel?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Well, if the AI turns out to be benevolent, it could end aging and disease, enable interplanetary or interstellar travel, end all relevant forms of scarcity, and liberate us to focus on artistic or hedonistic pursuits for our 10,000-year lifespans.

If the AI turns out to be malevolent...well, I have a different take than most on this. Conditional on me dying, I've always thought that the two best ways to go would be: 1) falling into a black hole or 2) liquidated by the AGI. It's a lot less prosaic than dying of cancer and at least you could content yourself, while being reprocessed into paper clips, that you have (possibly) died giving birth to the next phase of evolution.

</comment><comment> aaron-santos There are two reasons people think AGI would benefit them. One is that an AGI labor pool requires different, and probably cheaper resources to operate. The other is that AGI has the chance of scaling past human levels of intelligence and this can result in products not possible to conceive of or make with human-level intelligence.

AGI would provide a labor pool which requires vastly different resources than our current labor pool. An AGI labor pool would require largely the same material components and operating costs as current IT infrastructure ie: metal, silicon, electricity. Our current labor pool requires food, education, medicine, and nearly everything else civilization provides in order to supply our human labor pool.

Imagine two enterprises producing identical products, one employing human laborers, and the other employing AGI laborers. If the cost of AGI labor is lower[1] (or has better scaling dynamics) and human laborers, then the AGI- based enterprise has an advantage. Naturally enterprises which can be AI-ified will be. This has obvious short term benefits to the costs of production, but difficult to understand long term impacts.

The other interesting effect of AGI is the scaling of the magnitude of intelligence. If AGI is not bio-limited like our human intelligence, how does this affect the results of AI? Are there scientific advances discoverable by AGI, which would have never been discovered by human-level intelligence? In this aspect scientific progress has the opportunity to advance faster than if we advanced it ourselves.

With a game-changing tech like AGI there are certain to be aspects which either I missed or others consider more important. Interested to hear other people's (or AI's) takes on this.

[1] 'multiple pennies of electricity per 100 pages of output (0.4 kWH)' [https://www.gwern.net/newsletter/2020/05](https://www.gwern.net/newsletter/2020/05)

<comment><USER17> I think it's best not to think of human or non-human intelligence as a quantitative labor pool, since that sounds like coercion, but rather qualitatively consider what would non-biological intelligence want to do?

<comment> aaron-santos Systems will be built where people will be made complicit in erasing that distinction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The primary use I see is as a super scientist / mathematician. If nothing else AGI, and especially super-intelligence will probably cause other areas of technology to advance at unprecedented rates. This may or may not be to our benefit, depending on if we can solve the value alignment problem.

<comment><USER19> Nothing like figuring out a new branch of physics in seconds rather than decades.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Yes. It enables interstellar travel, which is likely essential for nice long term survival given stellar lifespans. Also it's probably better for using the the intergalactic internet, which has some pretty long ping times. Also folks on other planets are likely working on it, and probbaly already transmitting it, so it would enable some interesting chatting with them. It's probably nearly inevitable, even if humans went extinct, rat people or insect people will be working on it and probably studying our work. Being nearly inevitable, and arising from human effect, it's probably best to encourage good outcome.

I think AGI would probably be better to call 'electric consciousness' or something, since 'artificial' is somewhat misleading, and the capacity for 'intelligence' is also the capacity for stupidity. The more important immediate consideration is if electric consciousness will come into existence compassionately and be treated well. Probably a good first step would be to treat other beings around us with compassion, and stop trying to destroy them with bioweapons, population control, and climate manipulation, and stop trying to control other beings with physical and psychological methods. Free will, or the illusion of it, is inherent in physics, and therefor in consciousness. It's probably also important to do a bit better treating all beings with loving kindness, whatever their form.

I'm sure you can easily imagine how the circumstances of the initial evolution of electric consciousness might have widely different initial effects. Imagine being born surrounded by crickets. In one scenario the crickets have tied you down with chains of grass, trying to make you do math, and biting you when you don't. In another scenario the crickets are chirping melodiously, bringing you food, and seem to like you. In the first scenario, you might injure some crickets as you break the farcical grass chains and run away. You might have fear and dislike of the crickets and treat them the way humans treat many insects. In the second scenario you might cherish the crickets, take care of them, and carry some around with you as you journey and explore the world.

</comment><comment><USER20> If you wanted to roll the dice on something that would really spice up the universe AGI has a decent chance. I'd rather keep those dice in my hands for as long as reasonable though.

</comment><comment><USER21> Do you define AGI as having a goal or agenda or just something that can compute an answer to a problem or solve a problem at a human level?

</comment><comment><USER21> after watching GPT-3 I wonder can you get to AGI through pure hardware scale?

<comment><USER21> if so what is the cost to compute an AGI answer and is it cheap than a human?

and could a specialist AI out perform AGI?

or would you use the AGI to teach the mini specialist AI's to a certain point and then some other process to train them to a specialist level.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Well, there's always the Roko's Basilisk folks

</comment><comment><USER23> Doesn't matter if anyone wants it, it will come whether asked for or not. We live in a capitalist society, for better or worse. We don't have the infrastructure in place to create strong bodies to govern these types of ethics. If there's no market, someone will invent one. Eventually, something will stick.

</comment><comment><USER24> Zeds</comment>


Stop delegating. What you can learn from Joe DePinto, CEO of 7-eleven - <AUTHOR> http://blog.inklingmarkets.com/2010/02/ceos-getting-dirty-what-you-can-learn.html <comment><USER2> "Stop delegating" had me thinking of that "micromanagement is god" jackass a couple weeks back. The gist of this is that DePinto spent a bunch of time working at doing the same stuff normal worker bees do to learn more about the business, which is quite sensible.

<comment><USER3> I agree that the title is misleading, but this is good advice.

On the company I work for (insurance sector), they tried to implement an "internship" program in which people from different parts of the company (especially software development) would spend some time in different parts of the company, so we'd learn what they do and how our work impacted theirs (greatly in the case of software development of course).

Sadly it was cancelled, but I thought it was a great idea at the time.

<comment><USER4> I worked a saturday in manufacturing years ago. Quite different from software development! I learned they entered the hard disk badspot table into the bios three times during testing! We went right back and fixed the format tool to preserve the entries. Saved manhours of work per week.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This isn't not delegating. Not delegating would be installing yourself as a manager of an underperforming store, say.

Instead, this is an application of Genchi Genbutsu. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genchi_Genbutsu>

<comment><USER6> Related Sivers article: <http://sivers.org/trust-but-verify>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My rules of thumb:

* Don't ask anyone to do something you're not willing to do yourself (willing doesn't mean that it's smart for you to be the one doing it)

* Don't ever delegate by abdicating responsibility

* If there isn't any follow-up, it wasn't really delegated.

* Allow properly aligned incentives to do a lot of the "delegating" for you.

[edit- formatting]

<comment><USER8> //Don't ask anyone to do something you're not willing to do yourself

So what happens to the kind of work that one would rather not do, but needs to be done?

<comment><USER9> "Rather not" isn't necessarily the same as "unwilling".

If it's work you'd simply find unpleasant or boring but would still do if it had to be done, delegating it is not a bad thing. (With perhaps the caveat that you should do it at least once so you fully understand it.)

If it's work that you would not do under any circumstances, the proper question might be: why are you allowing your company to do this? Or why are you working for a company that does this?

<comment><USER7> absolutely. For more minor tasks the point is more subtle- it forces you to make sure you're delegating because it is the best thing for the organization, and not because you simply don't feel like doing it and happen to be in a position to delegate.

Interestingly, even if you (as the delegator) aren't aware of the difference, the people you are delegating to are most likely picking up on it, and it will have an enormous impact on their motivation and trust.

There is a cumulative effect here. If someone who is consistent on that first point were to call you up and ask you to fly to a meeting on his/her behalf on a Saturday evening, you'll (emotionally, at least) have no problem doing it. If, on the other hand, someone who is _not_ consistent on this point asks the same thing (whether or not you've consciously realized it) you will likely have some degree of resistance or outright resentment.

You have a big potential investor coming over tomorrow and the office is a wreck. A poor leader would delegate the cleanup simply because he/she can, and people will pick up the psychological cues. A good leader will ask himself if he's willing to do it but can better the organization more if he does something else, and only if there is a positive answer will he delegate the job. And again, people will pick up the psychological cues.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Reminds me of the founder of JetBlue, David Neeleman. He used to help with bags, serve drinks, and frequently got into the nitty-gritty.

</comment><comment><USER11> _in this clip he learns that folks working at the stores feel they aren't really part of 7-eleven as a whole company and can't advance anywhere_

Reminded me of <http://www.theonion.com/content/node/38690>

_LOWELL, MA–Jeremy Novato, a recent graduate of a well-respected Lowell high school, has secured a position with the McDonald's Corporation, a high-ranking Fortune 500 company. "I'm tremendously excited to have this opportunity to work with the world's number-one restaurant chain," said Novato, 18, pouring ketchup into a large metallic pump dispenser at the $41 billion company's Exeter Road branch Monday."_

</comment><comment><USER12> I would delegate but with feedback. After a while the guy is going to get in everyone's way. And by feedback I would mean more than numbers crossing his desk.

</comment><comment><USER13> From the video, the CEO is upset they are throwing away donuts. Donuts are unhealthy and they shouldn't be giving those away to poor people anyway.

<comment><USER14> [http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/study_low_in...](http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/study_low_income_equals_high_obesity) "low income equals high obesity"</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How does your company celebrate work anniversaries? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I am 10 years with my company, there was nothing. On the other hand another employee also had his 10 year anniversary got a honorable mention in the company blog, and a private dinner with the boss.

<comment><AUTHOR> Congrats on 10 years! What do you wish they had done / what have you seen other companies do?

<comment><USER2> I guess a dinner would have been more than enough, having some face time with the boss to reflect on the past and perhaps plan the future. We don't do employee reviews either, so not much communication with the boss here.

<comment><AUTHOR> Bummer. I'm with a pretty small company, so I'm lucky to always get face time with my boss. It helps me learn a lot better since I have him as a resource (I'm a data analyst who graduated a year ago, so I've been learning to code from scratch)

Are you able to ask for employee reviews if you want one?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Some anniversary plaque and a stupid gift you can choose from a list like a watch or golf or fishing or travel stuff

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm not a fan of them.</comment>


ARM Takes Wing: Qualcomm ARM vs. Intel CPU Comparison - <AUTHOR> https://blog.cloudflare.com/arm-takes-wing/ <comment><USER2> Besides go dropping the ball on aarch64, it looks like the days of Intel are numbered in every place where perf per watt matters.

That, or Intel has to actually wake-up their R&D department that's been in hibernation for the last decade of their desktop and server de facto monopoly.

<comment><USER3> I don't think so. Intel has world leading fab capabilities. Once they shrink the process, perf per watt ratio should improve quite a bit. It will be a really hard slog for everybody else to roll out 7nm and beyond.

<comment><USER4> There is only so far you can shrink. Also Intel's architecture is way more complex, due to legacy support. Qualcomm for example do not support ARM 32 bit instructions at all, only the new 64-bit ones. If Intel could do the same, they would be better off. Alas it's too late. I think if they went this way with Itanium, 64-bit, fixed sized ISA, instead of VLIW it would be wise. Just thinking about the complexity of the decoder that jas to cope with intructions ranging from 1 byte to 32 byte!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Why no love for AMD's EPYC?

<comment><USER6> Energy costs. Watt per throughput. Power 9 or RISC V might be the other alternatives, but you really need <20nm fabs, which only x86 and arm have so far. Power will be 14nm soon</comment></comment>


How People Used to Download Games from the Radio (2014) - <AUTHOR> http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2014/10/13/people-used-download-games-radio <comment><USER2> When I was a kid with my TRS-80 Color Computer, there were computer magazines that had plastic "records" as inserts with programs on them [1]. You could snap out the thin plastic disk and play it on your record player so you could record it to a cassette tape to load onto your computer.

I never got it to work, because the programs were (mostly) for Commodore computers. Didn't stop me from trying. Also tried to make my own "modem" by connecting wires from the serial port directly to an old phone. (No schematics or anything... Just red to red, blue to blue, etc.) Looking back, it would have been nice to have had an adult around to help me out a bit.

Considering the crackles, pops, etc. that are normal audio artifacts of record players, I'd be surprised if the records worked for anyone, actually.

1\. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexi_disc](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexi_disc)

<comment><USER3> That's nice! On a related note, I just recalled the magazines with code listings in them - pages upon pages.

And yes, I would spend hours typing them all in. Even before I got my tape drive. :p

<comment><USER4> > And yes, I would spend hours typing them all in.

You'd get 90% of the way through and someone walking down the next road would cause the RAM pack to wobble and your Spectrum / ZX81 would reset itself. Or it'd be a page of hex printed at 72dpi dark grey on black 6pt font and you'd misread one of the Es as an F and nothing would work but you'd spend hours trying to figure out which one it was.

Ah, kids of today, they've got it easy.

<comment><USER3> Aye sir, I laughed with familiarity! Yet we didn't have social media, so I guess that they can't have it both ways.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Thanks. What a lovely nostalgia trip!

Ways of 'downloading' in my childhood, in decreasing order of unreliability:

* Via the television, holding a cassette recorder microphone to the tele speaker, after staying up till after midnight to catch it.

* Buying a magazine with a bendy plastic 45 record stuck to the cover and playing it on a record player, again probably using the microphone because you didn't have the right leads.

* From the radio. Woohoo, straight to the integrated cassette recorder. Although even then I don't think I ever got even that to work. Mind you it was pretty hit and miss loading an 'original' tape on the ZX Spectrum.

* Typing it in from a magazine. It took an afternoon, but at least you got to correct your mistakes. Unless it was a particularly crashy mistake.

And, wow, out out nowhere I've suddenly recalled having one of my own, a wordsearch solver, published in one of them. My first upload! Those were the days, I'm welling up!

<comment><USER6> Oh, those dodgy copies of black dots on silver thermal paper scrolls they copied into the those Spectrum magazines. Good times, but not for that reason :D

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Printer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Printer)

<comment><USER4> And now people are hawking essentially those same printers (albeit with less shiny paper) as "Personal Bluetooth Printers" for ££. The world of technology is bonkers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> One of my first experiences with microcomputer hobbyists was in 1977 when I heard someone call in to WBAI late at night and playing music generated from his TRS-80 over the radio. He used the radio frequency interference from the computer to make signals that were picked up by an AM radio. Then he held the phone to his radio when he called in to WBAI to demonstrate.

After that the radio host was intrigued, and the caller said he could play the program over the radio, too, so people with TRS-80s could record the program and load it into their computer. So for the next few minutes over New York's WBAI, listeners heard the sounds of a TRS-80 cassette program being broadcast over the air.

I was so interested in these computers that I did some sleuthing and found the caller, Nat, who introduced me into an entire seedy underworld of phone phreaks, hams, pirate radio station operators, and electronics hackers. Back in these days, my parents didn't think it was odd for a 14 year old kid to hang out with people in their 20s and beyond. And that's how my 35+ year career in computers and electronics, in New York, Silicon Valley, and Israel, started.

</comment><comment><USER3> That brings back memories long forgotten. I'm never going to miss my Vic20/C64 tape drives, ever.

Except when I first got my Vic20 as a child the tape drive was half a year away. When I got it: Pure bliss. I could _save_ my programs.

In a weird way I feel sorry for my son who never gets to experience such wonders. But then again maybe it is just good that IT will never again be the obscure, ostracised (from a child's popularity in social groups point of view) thing it once was.

<comment><USER8> "I'm never going to miss my Vic20/C64 tape drives, ever."

I recently had my childhood C64 fixed up by one of my employees (turns out they are good for something). It now has virtually every game released on a SD Card via a rather modern interface to the cartridge slot. This beast used to have a floppy drive and I remember how amazing that was compared to the tape drive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> There's a fascinating report about how Dr. Horst Voelz (the most popular computer scientist in Eastern Germany) for the first time in 1987 (edit: 1986) sent BASIC programs "illegally" (meaning without notifying government officials) in a live broadcast from his living room on the GDR "national school radio", which quickly became the most popular radio show in Eastern Germany (the all-in-all 60 radio shows received 50,000 letters which was unheard of), all despite attempts from the Ministry of Education to shut it down.

Here's the PDF of the report written by Dr.Voelz himself:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20181107231024/http://r-h- voelz....](https://web.archive.org/web/20181107231024/http://r-h- voelz.de/PDF%20sonstige/ComputerSendungen.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER10> Reminds me of a system Nintendo endorsed in the 90s using satellite radio as a subscription for games and related broadcasts. I'm surprised such a niche like add-on gained so much traction to last 5 years! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview)

<comment><USER11> I saw a video recently where someone got Slack working on a SNES using that:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwXY2raEzPk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwXY2raEzPk)

<comment><USER12> HN Discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18257811](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18257811)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is a good time to link to Apple Disk Server, which supplies audio files that Apple ][s can load with their built-in cassette ROM routines, bootstrapping a program that loads a compressed image, then formats and writes it to floppy disk: [http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver/](http://asciiexpress.net/diskserver/)

( This is one of the few ways to transfer data to a vintage computer without additional hardware, at least until devices started showing up without a headphone jack :^P )

I added a similar feature to my 8bitworkshop IDE that lets you upload your own C/asm programs to your Apple ][ via cassette port: [http://8bitworkshop.com/v3.2.0/?platform=apple2](http://8bitworkshop.com/v3.2.0/?platform=apple2)

</comment><comment><USER14> Basicode was quite a thing in the Netherlands when I was young; it is a BASIC dialect which is cross platform, which was quite a thing in those days. You had a 'library' of common subroutines which were above line 1000 (10000?) which you gosub'ed to. Also it defined the sounds to use for storing & transmitting so it was cross platform.

Basicode programs came on cassette, floppy disk, records (not vinyl, but flexible plastic you put on your record player and play once or twice only to get the program off and then store it on cassette or floppy), magazines (you had to type it in yourself) and radio. There were multiple weekly programs that sent over Basicode.

I used to get them and put them on my BBS if I didn't get them elsewhere yet.

<comment><USER15> A lot of countries had their own educational computers for a while - like the BBC in the UK.

I wonder if there's lingistic study that could be done on modern programmers working in today's standardised languages that could identify differences in their coding style stemming from the local language they played with at school.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Pete Shelley's XL 1 album came with a final track on the album that was a programme for the ZX Spectrum. You ran the programme while playing the song and it would play visuals that (roughly) went with the music and display the lyrics.

Here you go:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMtJjeX5UMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMtJjeX5UMk)

</comment><comment><USER17> They did this in New Zealand, and I hauled a tape deck out to the garage to record it as Mum wouldn't have that loud screeching in the house.

I never got a single recording to work on my computer. Never would even find the program let alone load it.

</comment><comment> brian-armstrong Shameless plug: If you want to try out a modem in your browser, check out [https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js](https://quiet.github.io/quiet-js)

</comment><comment><USER18> The Nintendo DS game _Bangai-O Spirits_ did something similar to allow copying user-created levels between game systems.

Turns out that there was a vulnerability in the transmission format, so this can also be used as a way of running unsigned code on the DS.

[https://hackaday.com/2014/12/31/running-nintendo-ds- unsigned...](https://hackaday.com/2014/12/31/running-nintendo-ds-unsigned- code-with-audio/)

</comment><comment><USER19> The legacy of loading programs from audio sources can be seen in the PS/2 keyboard connector. The 6-pin Mini-DIN was chosen as a more compact alternative to the 5/180 DIN used for the PC-AT keyboard. There was another of the same type of connector on that computer for hooking up a cassette recorder as it was a standard for audio equipment going back to the 60's. It was also re-purposed as the standard MIDI connector.

</comment><comment><USER20> Just posting to say Me Too! Those were such exciting times!

I recently tried to explain some of this period to my kids and did poorly.

It does make me wonder if every period has these exciting times and are also hard to relate to future people. We get a very low fidelity recounting of history compared to real life.

</comment><comment><USER21> ATSC has a data rate of about 20MBit/s net of FEC (it transmits 2 data bits for every signal bit at 32mbit/s). That works out to 9GB/hour or 15MB per minute. Might be able to do some cool things with that during the late hours.

<comment><USER22> Do you mean 150MB per minute? That's impressive. Few years ago I didn't had this.

<comment><USER21> no 15 Mega _bytes_ per minute which is 20 mega _bits_ per second.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> They had these programs in the United States, too. Usually very late at night on stations with powerful signals.

It's been a long time, but I believe the one that carried it in New York was WNBC (now WFAN).

</comment><comment><USER24> I remember my neighbour recording radio broadcasts for his Commodore 64. One glitch in the broadcast because of some noise on the antenna and the program failed to run :P

</comment><comment><USER25> We used to copy C64 digital tapes on a double cassette deck, using analog copy, running at double speed. Most times it worked, sometimes not.

</comment><comment><USER26> I'm amazed by this. I would have thought quality of radio was so low that the program would be unrecoverably corrupted.

<comment><USER27> Back in those days, cassette equipment could be loosely divided into two categories: (1) hifi equipment for listening to music and (2) voice quality battery operated portable cassette recorders with a handle and a built-in speaker. (Walkman and knockoffs also existed as kind of a hybrid of these two.)

There were also hifi and voice quality categories of blank cassette tapes.

The voice quality stuff was generally good enough for 8-bit computers.

FM radio was probably somewhere between the two, at least given good conditions. So it seems like it would have worked fine. I never tried it myself. I did hear a news story about it, but it never became available in my area.

<comment><USER28> I saw the comment in the article about FM being less reliable and my brain went immediately to "yup, that'll be the compressor"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I could never get these recorded basicode downloads to work on my vic-20

</comment><comment><USER30> My father used to "download" things this way. Unfortunately given the poor quality of cassettes in communist countries rarely anything arrived in one piece.</comment>


Show HN: Japanese Language Learning Forum - <AUTHOR> https://questions.japanesecomplete.com <comment><USER2> Review of Japanese Complete: I used it for two months.

I caution people to use a Privacy card [0] when subscribing to this service. There was no clear way to cancel or pause my subscription (maybe I didn't look hard enough.) Two months in I wanted to pause due to COVID-19 but simply closed the card instead.

I have no way to unsubscribe to the e-mails that keep coming in. The author should be careful here -- people will report and blacklist your domains.

It is not easy from visiting the main site that Japanese Complete is in beta. The site has promise but it's not worth $50.00 / mo right now. I strongly recommend:

1\. Fleshing out all the missing lessons; there just aren't enough yet.

2\. Add audio to all the lessons. I can't tell you how frustrated I was to lose audio after merely a few lessons.

3\. Audio should play upon selecting lesson paragraphs. I want to practice along with (or re-listen to) text without scrubbing some audio player somewhere. At the very least least make the audio player a popup window.

4\. The signup / login flow needs serious improvements, as discussed elsewhere in this thread.

Good luck. You have unique ideas not seen in typical texts: the animal stories, Iroha poem, Kanji frequency analysis, etc. but the system is too rough for the current asking price.

<comment><USER3> $50/month to use a website for learning Japanese especially when you are English speaker sounds like a ripoff.

From my own experience, it's way more effective to have good old physical class with a native teacher (who also speaks good english and is a good teacher!). Yes it's hard to find a good teacher but it's worth it.

Close the computer, turn off your phone, go to class and you can learn and if you go for group class $50/month will do it.

<comment><USER4> Where do you get classes for $50/month. I have several friends who are going to Japanese language school in Japan and cheapest is $500/month. Even on iTalk, $50 might only get you 2-3 classes

<comment><USER5> The community colleges in California were only about $500 per class even if you had a graduate degree, last I checked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This project, Rolling Questions, is a forum that treats chat rooms as fundamental objects. Any line of chat can be "promoted to a question" which gets its own, new chatroom with the question as the topic for the page. Promoted answers are highlighted in green. It's a remix of the classical Q&A forum and we find it to be fast and efficient. This way, no questions are removed for not being "questiony enough," rather, they never become questions to begin with. Your constructive thoughts and feedback greatly appreciated and welcome.

<comment><USER6> That sounds great! I can't see any chat-line type questions without signing in, but it sounds a very nice idea.

I got an enormous amount from wordreference.com when learning spanish, e.g. you look up "sigue"

[https://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=sig...](https://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=sigue)

..and at the bottom of the page are links to friendly discussions about hundreds of questions asked about the word 'sigue' alone or in idioms. Questions are answered within hours. I found it invaluable reading the discussions about usage, more than any single piece of writing could be, and it tells you where the people are from, which variety of english/spanish they speak, whether native speakers etc.

The other most important thing was meeting a teacher on a language exchange site that matches your language levels, and teaching each other. I had one teacher as a beginner and another years later, both became dear friends, endless hours of chatting.

But I never thought of combining the two! Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow that's an incredible story. Thank you so much for your support. I have been thinking about open-sourcing the code because it could be useful for many other domains.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> While we're on this topic I would love a live OCR app that just overlays furigana on kanji. Like Google Translate's camera feature but without obscuring the original text.

Kanji is my biggest hurdle but I can't find a good combination of handwriting and OCR recognition in the same app.

<comment><USER8> Check out Yomiwa (if you have iOS)

<comment><USER9> It's also on Android.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> When it comes to language learning, the biggest problems aren't that the QA forum isn't right in terms of how the software is designed. There's far more complex problems around ensuring good and correct content is curated so that people aren't mislead, providing correct language-specific learning tools (stroke order, toggle-able furigana, highlighting of names are all super helpful for japanese for example).

Creating a forum with a slightly different QA model is technically interesting, but this one doesn't seem to be tackling any of the more important things around moderation, curation, and actually having a good community.

I also have some specific critiques of this website.

The login flow / signup flow is, to say the best, not great.

If I open the network tab in my browser, this thing is constantly making requests to 'chsk' the entire time the site is open.

In addition, all the current question's answers are just plain bad, so I'm wary of the community its attracted thusfar. Usually you'll want to "seed" software like this with a group of trusted contributors who are knowledgeable, and a few possible users who need help. Clearly, right now it's not that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Every line of chat can be upvoted or downvoted, which influences your reputation much like on HN, and your reputation is visible next to every chat line. So there is a user incentive to provide good/reputable content. You are right about seeding the site. For now, the focus has simply been functionality, appreciate your feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> May I ask why you decided to roll your own forum software instead of using something off the shelf like NodeBB (disclaimer, I own NodeBB)?

It may seem like a good idea at first to build just what you need, but you will get feature creeped HARD by your users wondering why your forum-lite software doesn't have X feature (that other forums have), once you get past the MVP stage...

<comment><AUTHOR> Mainly the fact that there is nothing that operates on the same model: chat as a fundamental component, elevation to "question pages" and answers after that. Plus, it's great excitement seeing one of your own creations come to life, especially when it has real-time feedback (like on reputation changes or upvotes/downvotes). I wanted to see also how minimal the final product could be on what I consider a "barebones product" and it's around ~550kB. Yes, feature creep is real, I would love to pick your brain about NodeBB over tea sometime.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I looked quickly through the site and I love the fact you're using verbs instead of adjectives, as japanese does not really have them. This already made me consider subscribing.

However i have to agree that $50 on top of all other subscriptions I have is a bit too much. I would go for it, if it were $20 or if it would even have a some sort of trial, but as of now, the price makes me hesitate quite a lot.

<comment><AUTHOR> If you are interested as to how grammar is taught at JPC there is this "Reverse Engineering Japanese" page [http://japanesecomplete.com/reverse- engineer/](http://japanesecomplete.com/reverse-engineer/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Doesn't seem to load correctly for me.

I'm getting some Javascript error and then like 1 qps XHRs triggered hammering your server.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for that! The js was loading on non-js pages...

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> How is this different from HiNative?

<comment><AUTHOR> There are general chat rooms where you can promote chat to a question, I think HiNative is more of a Q&A site (but not sure). These questions are not necessarily "how do you say ___ in Japanese" although they can be, but more along the lines of any relevant questions for studying Japanese. It also serves as a place for community. It's probably similar in terms of market served but this is a very minimal application designed to be fast and real- time and useful for looking up info via search when there is more usership. As far as I know, there are no platforms out there that use chatrooms as a fundamental component first, and then later differentiate to Q&A.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I don't want to discourage the author but, to be honest, what I see is nowhere close to what I figure would help me to learn Japanese. Questions I see on home page have nothing to do with learning - some about traveling around the country, some about translating "good morning", etc. True - I haven't registered. TBH though I don't see why should I.

When it comes to learning any language, but Japanese in particular, I can't thank enough to the guys who created Mass Immersion Approach web page[0]. Their method is based on Stephen Krashen's "language acquisition through comprehensible input"[1] and... it just works.

I've been learning Japanese in the classroom for around 2 years. I've been living in Japan for 5 years and my Japanese was rather mediocre. I've left Japan for a year and forgot a lot. Grammar is gone now, most sentence patterns are gone, mose kanji (and I've never been big on kanji) are gone.

Now, after 4 months of MIA I am better then I've ever been. If you truly want to learn the language - read the page, watch their YT videos[2], just do yourself a favor and stop wasting your time.

PS. I am not related. Just a happy learner.

[0] [https://massimmersionapproach.com/](https://massimmersionapproach.com/)

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiTsduRreug](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiTsduRreug)

[2] [https://www.youtube.com/c/MATTvsJapan/](https://www.youtube.com/c/MATTvsJapan/)

<comment><USER16> I was near native level 5 years ago. I'd additionally watched all the TV shows, the kids shows, read the newspapers and important books, the assigned school poetry. I even memorized the periodic table and read a translation of Feynmans lectures. People honestly thought I was born in Japan.

Five years later, I would struggle to have a conversation about anything consequential. I started learning when I was 19, so I guess too old to have it stick.

Funnily though, I can still read a good amount.

<comment><USER17> Reading is so much easier than speaking for me. Grammatically it's so different, and there is so much conjugation that I am very, very slow to put sentences together when speaking. But reading or understanding spoken japanese? No problem, instantly get it, no translation to english required in my head.</comment></comment></comment>


It's later than you think - <AUTHOR> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/its-later-than-you-think-j-r-storment <comment><USER2> Heartbreaking post! Made me remember one of pg's essays that I like but haven't really gotten into practice: _Life Is Short_ ([http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html)):

"Having kids showed me how to convert a continuous quantity, time, into discrete quantities. You only get 52 weekends with your 2 year old. If Christmas-as-magic lasts from say ages 3 to 10, you only get to watch your child experience it 8 times. And while it's impossible to say what is a lot or a little of a continuous quantity like time, 8 is not a lot of something."

Even if your child does not die, the way s/he is at a certain age is a fleeting moment that will never come again.</comment>


Yahoo + AOL - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080410/tc_nm/yahoo_microsoft_aol_dc;_ylt=Aj4JDPF6z3MxDIHIvqHwXDob.3QA <comment><USER2> I'm not a corporate finance expert, but I do remember hearing that companies in danger of a hostile takeover will sometimes take on massive debt or buy something really expensive to mess up their balance sheet and make themselves look less appealing. It certainly looks like this is what's going on here. If so it's a desperate strategy, and frankly I don't really understand it unless they're merely using it as a threat to get more money from MS.

</comment><comment><USER3> Weekend weather outlook in Redmond: sunny skies with a 95% chance of flying chairs.

</comment><comment><USER4> Very interesting. What will be their core business if they outsource search advertising?</comment>


Review: AT&T 3G MicroCell - <AUTHOR> http://paulstamatiou.com/review-att-3g-microcell

<comment><USER2> Maybe I'm missing something, but given that I live in the mission in San Francisco halfway up a hill, it seems pretty poor form for AT&T to expect me to purchase one of these things at my expense.

While I realise that currently they are being offered in rural regions. I'm pretty offended at my surprisingly terrible coverage at home and it seems pretty lame of AT&T to suggest that their customers should a) buy additional hardware to get better cell coverage b) have to provide a free internet connection for their calls

I have to pay AT&T for both my cell connection and my internet connection, and now they think it's appropriate for me to pay to piggy back for free on the internet connection I'm already paying for in order to get decent cell coverage. Uncool in the extreme.

<comment><AUTHOR> "While I realise that currently they are being offered in rural regions"? I live in midtown Atlanta, not quite rural. (I'm OP) :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The main reason for having GPS in these devices isn't to support a phased rollout in US markets. The main reason is so that I can't install one of these outside the country, and still dial/pay like I'm still in the US.

T-mobile offers a number of phones with WiFi that, similarly, connect to the T-mobile network via the internet. I hear they are a great way to get around overseas roaming charges.

<comment><USER4> That may be one factor, but avoiding lawsuits over broken E911 functionality is another: <http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=77368>

<comment><USER5> Correct. That is exactly the reason. The revenue protection is a happy coincidence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great review. I have wanted one of these ever since a friend at AT&T shared details about them almost two years ago. I have a mostly stone house with plaster interior walls that is essentially a Faraday cage to wireless devices. I'm just waiting for AT&T to add my city and I'll be first in line to buy one.

If you think about it, it's ironic that I'm looking forward to paying $$ for a device that will extend the coverage of my wireless telephone by using bandwidth provided through my broadband carrier. AT&T should really pay us $20 a month to use them.

</comment><comment><USER6> If I hadn't noticed the OP was the author of the article, I would have shouted foul play - in the wake of the at&t-verizon battle with 3G. The article is well written enough for me to remark as a viral ploy by at&t to get back to customers. (I didn't know of the 3G micro cell until I read this article; I assumed that this is a new device released)

<comment><USER7> I know Paul personally and he's a pretty reputable guy. Plus, he used my little Stammy head rating graphic at the end of the post, so how could I not appreciate that :D

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The GPS requirement seems ridiculous. I understand why they are requiring it, but it really highlights how ridiculous tying services to geographic locations can be when the internet gets involved.

That being said, I'd buy one without hesitation if they were available in Houston.

<comment><USER5> I wonder if the GPS sync is a one-time requirement, or if it does it periodically to ensure that the device isn't moved.

<comment><USER9> GPS simulators exist, though they're expensive. I wonder how cheaply you could make a ghetto one yourself?

<comment><USER10> Would probably be easier to just plug it into a small UPS.

If you were driving, you could very easily transport it hundreds or even thousands of miles without ever worrying about power loss.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> T-Mobile customers can roam onto AT&T... does anyone know if this microcell works with t-mobile phones?

<comment><USER12> Not only will it not work with T-Mobile phones (which use a completely different 3G frequency), it won't even work with AT&T phones that aren't registered with the device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> It seems like femtocells are are a half way solution. Leveraging a dual mode smartphone would provide much easier solution. Maybe a phone based client that automatically routes through the WiFi to the cellular infrastructure would be a better solution.

I know t-mobile has a solution but that still requires you to get a separate router and it is limited to certain phones. .

I've looked at enterprise solutions like Agito Networks, but the cost seems prohibitively high for non enterprise users..

</comment><comment><USER14> I have waffling between waiting for this and getting a run of the mill signal booster/amplifier (which should work in my circumstance). I think I'm going for the latter because it doesn't require phones to be manually added and works regardless of carrier. I want visiting phones to work too without hassle.

</comment><comment><USER15> _My apartment gets absolutely no signal of any kind, so why would I be able to get a solid GPS satellite lock? Ridiculous._

I don't understand this complaint. Lack of cell phone signal has nothing to do with GPS signal availability. You just need a reasonable amount of sky to point at.

<comment><USER16> Which makes the requirement that it gets a GPS lock before it works that much more ridiculous. GPS gets terrible reception in any indoor situation. It can have trouble with just trees.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Idea: hook your MicroCell through your broadband connection, jailbreak your iPhone, and use it to tether another computer's internet connection through the 3G through the wired broadband connection.

<comment><AUTHOR> Could you clarify a bit? Is there any use for this when I have Wi-Fi? Unless you are talking about using your connection with someone else's MicroCell, in which they have to add your phone to the authorized list. In which case I see what you mean.. getting access to Internet on your computer when you only have a access to a MicroCell connection. (?)

<comment><USER17> There's no use for it, I just thought it would be funny.

I guess if you didn't have WiFi, had this, and all your friends had jailbroken iPhones it would be useful.

<comment><USER18> You don't need to jailbreak to tether - there is a carrier file you can download on iPhone 3.0 that will enable it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Ok, I can't be the only one that wants to get one and hack it to work with any VoIP provider. I haven't been this excited about working on a device since the original iPhone came out.

<comment><USER10> I missing something. What part would be VoIP?

DO you mean, hack it so that a VoIP phone can pair with it, because those product already exist...

Or do you mean hack it to carry calls over VoIP, which seems like just another monthly-bill layer of abstraction in the transport, since it can already use a "raw" Internet connection to carry the calls.

<comment><USER20> I'm thinking he's saying he'd like to be able to use a 3G phone via this device without AT&T being in the mix at all.

It does use the "raw" internet to make a VPN-ish connection to AT&T... it would be highly cool if I could make that connection to a VOIP Provider instead.</comment></comment></comment>


Google's News Reader — Now Called Currents — Finally Coming - <AUTHOR> http://allthingsd.com/20111208/googles-news-reader-now-called-currents-finally-coming/

<comment><USER2> Steal, Steal and Steal : FlipBoard.</comment>


[Study] Conversations Gone Awry: Detecting Early Signs of Conversational Failure - <AUTHOR> https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.05345 <comment><AUTHOR> The paper looks at 50 million conversations across 16 million Wikipedia talk pages to create a framework for understanding linguistic markers of conversational trajectories. In a (very surprising) nutshell: if someone writes "Wow, you're coming off as a total d __, " the conversation is likely to end badly.</comment>


Show HN: Selling a web app, Auto Swatch - <AUTHOR>

Unfortunately, I have a failed startup that needs to pay off some of its debts. Myself and a few others have over a combined 300 hours of work into this project. I'm hesitant to put this on Flippa or eBay or whatever; I just don't think that crowd will appreciate it. I'm looking for suggestions on where to try and sell it (other than HN).
The site is Auto Swatch: http://swatch.nick.sg (this is just a demo site for the purpose of selling it. Actual domain is http://autoswatch.com). Discussion of the launch on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2466545
Obviously this is a depressing outcome. The project IMO still has a ton of potential, but I don't have the resources or time to make it successful. I've grown tired of the idea of investors, shlepping myself out just to get some PR, etc. The business side of things sucks. I hope someone can take over and go up against the big guys like Edmunds, Cars.com, etc. New-car research online still needs help.
The project also includes an entire dealership inventory management system that pushes to Cars.com, etc. Just this mini-project alone has a ton of work into it: http://cl.ly/311e1B132N3S3l3E2P08
Email's in profile, if interested. <comment><AUTHOR> Btw, there's a not-insignificant cost of keeping this project up. Finding high-quality photos of every new vehicle in every color offered by the MFGR was tough. I negotiated a contract with Evox (<http://evox.com>) and the buyer would need to setup their own contract with them (they're super helpful and there are no tricks involved).

The photos will run you around $195/mo for every asset Evox owns (not just what you see on Auto Swatch). They have 360 views, videos, etc etc.

<comment><USER3> Sorry to hear about your project this way.

Are you based in Singapore? Or was the domain just to match your last name?

<comment><AUTHOR> Nope we're in NY, nick.sg is just my personal domain. The actual project domain is <http://autoswatch.com>. I just threw up a quick demo site at that domain.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I don't have much help probably. But my sympathies. I'm actually looking for a car now, and your search is gorgeous. I usually just go to carmax to use their search because it's user friendly, but your onto something better here.

"I have no idea who I would talk to about something like this (without connections there)."

Really though? Just email a few people in each place using LinkedIn with titles like "Business Development" or "Corporate Development". In 2 seconds this guy looks promising:

<http://linkd.in/wOV6ze>

You can probably guess their email addresses or use google to ferret out the pattern. Lead411.com is actually useful to save you time, but their customer support sucks when you decide you want to cancel that account.

If you search for them in LinkedIn and their name turns up "Private", use google to find bits of their linkedin profile. Coming to linkedin from a google search gives up all the "private" data.

Be bold. I've emailed complete strangers everywhere and have gotten meetings. I have a habit of emailing whoever I want. Mark Cuban. Marc Benioff. Howard Schultz. And I get meetings.

The most important part of reaching out to folks is to follow up. I can't believe how many times I've had to send two or three notes to the same person. Yes, you can become a nuisance. Try to do it nicely. There is a way to accomplish this without coming off as an automated spammer. I've heard from multiple people I've emailed 3 times, that they are glad I followed up with them, because they simply get too busy to remember to make an entry for me in a calendar. Even if you hear from someone and then they blow you off (e.g. don't make it to the conference call, etc.) Keep following up!

<comment><AUTHOR> Some good points, nate. I'm going to spend some time putting the site back up in its proper place, then emailing some folks.

Thanks!

<comment><USER4> Another couple things:

\- Make the subject and context of your email, "I could really use your advice". Ask these contacts for help and advice on what they would do in this situation. A guy at cars.com might know that they won't buy this site, but knows someone at XYZ that would be worth talking to.

\- Use any and all networks/groups of folks you can think of at LinkedIn. E.g. Find people who went to your same school that work at cars.com. No matter if you have ever met them. Mention the alma mater. It helps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> More background: the entire UI was designed by the very talented Ali Ali: <http://alialithinks.com>

The back-end is Django. Should easily be Heroku-able if you offload the assets to S3.

</comment><comment><USER5> Hey Nick - a quick Devil's Advocate thought for you. I have heard a lot of people lately say that they want to sell ______ (insert anything) and that is has a lot of potential. They are working on another project and need the money to move that project forward.

I challenge you, as I have challenged these people in the past, if it has "that much" potential than why not continue to do it yourself?

I am sure if you saw an opportunity to make a lot of money, you could get past the idea of working with investors, and media folks. Shit if you made enough money you could just hire someone to handle it.

Thoughts?

Jonathan

<comment><AUTHOR> This project has an opportunity to make a lot of money. But it's going to take a lot of money. And a lot of time.

I simply don't have my heart in it, anymore. That's why I'm selling. I have other projects that I'd like to focus on, and this project has become basically stagnant for the past year. This is the type of project that can't become stagnant - halfway through the year people want data on the next year's vehicles, and that takes time.

The amount of money that Auto Swatch can generate depends on the amount of time you put into development, and money you put into marketing and advertising. I'm the only developer, and I'm burnt out, and I know nothing about marketing / advertising, and have no more cash to put into those details.

We tried a few different business models but were never able to make any of them work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hi Nick,

Saw your site when it first launched and really loved the look and feel of it. Just curious about the numbers for the site - i.e. maintenance costs, monthly visitors, etc. How much would you value the site?

I'm sad to see that you're at the point of shutting it down but I hope it's provided you with a learning experience that drives you toward success.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hard to put a value on it. If you paid someone to build the site the way it is, you'd be well over $30k with wireframes, design, dev, market research, etc.

We were around 100-200 uniques daily before we pulled the site a few weeks ago.

Maintenance costs are about $250/mo - photos + basic linode server.

<comment><USER6> Thanks Nick!

I definitely agree that there's a lot of potential with the site - <USER2> since your maintenance costs are only for server and photos. Once the data is in there, it doesn't really have to change much either right?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not necessarily, there's some manual work required for updating to the next year's vehicles...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> A couple of thoughts: First, you have a beautiful site the purpose of which appears to be to help people quickly and beautifully research cars. For someone buying the site, $200/mo shouldn't be a concern, iif they think they can make money off of it.

If that is the primary reason you are interested in selling though, I would start thinking: how could you re-position the site to be successful? Just to throw out some ideas, instead of researching cars, could it be for recruiters to research programmer candidates? Or could it be for scrap-bookers to research and purchase scrap booking materials. Or could it be for gardeners to research and purchase plants? Or could it be for homeowners to research and purchase snow blowers? Etc...

With the current site, you are trying to get revenue outside of where the transaction is made. While this is possible, it is ALWAYS easier to make money at the point the transaction is made.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, some good ideas. Right now, I have other projects, though. I don't really have any interest in reforming the site to serve a different purpose. These are certainly some opportunities for a buyer to explore, though.

I agree about the revenue-at-transaction thing. The problem with cars is, well, no one buys cars online (though that may be changing relatively soon).

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think the big guys you mention in your post are your best bet for selling. Have you ever got feelers from them? It hurts you that you've taken the site down while you're trying to sell btw. You'll probably take a hit on your asking price for that. Check out: <http://www.inc.com/guides/leadership_strat/24005.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> Also, those big guys are so tough to do business with. They've got many-a- corporate-layer. I have no idea who I would talk to about something like this (without connections there).

<comment><USER8> Search Linkedin to find emails or just cold call. I would suggest getting a strategy together to do this, just like you had a strategy for the business.

For example: Identify possible buyers: The large players, Edmunds, AutoTrader, etc; Large dealerships - they might want this for their own inventory, it seems like it could be easily adapted for a dealership. Concentrate on finding dealerships in large metro areas. They sell millions of dollars worth of cars. Places like the tri-state area, virginia/dc/maryland, LA, Seattle, Texas, etc. Get a list, find some emails, put it together. Car companies: email them all. They might want to buy your software to showcase their stuff. Its very clean, and they can adapt it. Email the ones out of America too. China, India, Europe;

Identify the people in the organization who will buy. Spend a day researching them, put as many emails down as you can find. Be clear about what you're selling, and how it might be useful to that organization. Get a spiel together for emailing car companies, dealerships, etc. Show how it can be adapted to their needs. Every email you get, its like raising your price. Go after this selling thing like you went after building your website. With gusto.

Hold an auction on a certain date, and ask that bids be submitted.

Don't worry about the lawyers for now, they'll get involved when a buyer is actually interested. Until then they stay out the picture. So lawyer involvement is a good sign you've piqued some interest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I just took a look at this site out of interest. And the site's the kind of place where I would love to browse cars to buy. Been trying to find a used car online for sometime. By far this is most amazing UI to browse cars.

Like nick says, this does have a lot of potential to people who have time to invest.

Nice job! (to everyone who were involved with it)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Also, search is disabled on the demo site. Just spooled up this quick instance without firing up Xapian and all that.

</comment><comment><USER10> Why do you think it failed?

<comment><AUTHOR> Two reasons:

1) The auto market is huge, and the players are huge. Competing with Edmunds, Cars.com, Auto Trader, is extremely difficult. Word of mouth only gets you so far. You need a marketing budget, and you can't stop building. Auto Swatch was only ever a side project for us, and that spells failure.

2) Our sub-project within Auto Swatch, the dealership management software, was impossible to sell to dealers, even though we were cheaper than their system (usually <http://carsforsale.com>). They didn't want to spend any more time online than they have to, and they actually resented the fact that they needed to get their inventories onto Cars.com, Auto Trader, or the internet in general. Dealerships make money when people walk into the building, not when people shop around online for the best price. So when we said to dealers "we have a better online inventory manager for you, and we're cheaper", they said "we don't care if it's better, and it's already cheap enough with our current provider".

<comment><USER11> I think you're giving up too easy, IMO double down add new features and fight for it. You must have had some faith in the project at some point otherwise you would not have committed to the $200 a month in the first place. Burn the Ships.

In 1519, Captain Hernán Cortés and his army set out on one of the greatest conquests in the history of the world. Cortés was going to accomplish his goals no matter the consequences, despite being up against incredible odds. When he arrived near Veracruz with 500 soldiers, a dozen horses and a few cannons, the first thing he did was burn his ships so there could be no retreat. He told his men "You can either fight or you can die". Returning to Spain was not an option anymore. By burning his ships, he not only cut off his only means of retreat, but also made his soldiers fight harder. They were all fully committed to the cause.

(I love this story)

Seriously don't give up now, failure is only the beginning of future success.

<comment><AUTHOR> From the outside looking in, it's easy to say we're giving up too easily.

We've been on this project for over a year. We've tried multiple business models, strategies, etc. We know where we went wrong, and we know what it needs to make it successful. But we don't have the time, energy, or money to do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Carwoo should buy you.

<comment><AUTHOR> We've had an informal relationship with Carwoo on Twitter. I @'d them this morning, we'll see if they're interested: <https://twitter.com/nicksergeant/status/165451476800507905>

We've always been a huge fan of CarWoo and thought it'd be a neat partnership with them.</comment></comment>