I quit my high-paying job to follow my dream of launching a startup. Here it is. - <AUTHOR> http://theappifier.com <comment><USER2> You need to move this site to a host that can handle the load today. I'm getting timeouts and finally got the home page to load. I can't get any of the other pages to load either.

<comment><USER3> Trying to reach you via e-mail -- www.wpengine.com can help with your site. We specialize in high traffic!

<comment><USER2> You should add to your marketing more info about how you are good in handling traffic and most importantly why. In a way that will make sense with both tech and non tech types. (Non tech has no idea what aws is or a cdn is for example). I've looked at your site a few times (even right now) and that isn't the thing that stuck in my mind from your marketing. The takeaway for me was "expert at WP" not necessarily "expert handling of traffic and here's why". I'm not saying it's not mentioned. I just think that point has to be driven home better.

<comment><USER4> We're (literally) working on a website refresh right now, which hits that and other points. Sample factoid: One of the customers was on 20/20 recently and sustained 2,500 requests per second for 15 minutes.

Boring technical details: Varnish caching, automatic load balancing, redundant servers (beefy physical hardware to avoid poor disk performance on virtualized systems), "Death to KeepAlive", etc.

(Ooh, it is live now: <http://wpengine.com/our-infrastructure/> )

<comment><USER2> That's great. I actually read the whole page.

I would add an additional bullet to the home page adapting a key statement from that page where they said "sit back and be happy you're not having to do all this yourself."

 _Why our engine never stops_

\</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-----

(Hey, why are we so fast, secure and scalable?)

 _Sit back and be happy that you're not having to do all this yourself_

Linked to the "our-infrastructure page".

<comment><USER4> Thanks for the suggestions. We're still in the process of updating things, but we'll make "Compelling for non-technical users who just want things to not break, comprehensive for technical people who want to understand we're not snow-jobbing them." a priority.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Kudos to you for following your dream, but I do have to say I'm fully against making it easier for people to move that which should stay on the web to native apps. We have web browsers for a reason.

<comment><AUTHOR> hey mark!

it was strange to me too at first, but we built it in response to the fact that we kept on getting asked about getting onto the "app store" by small business owners who were going digital and building Wordpress sites. Everyone wants an app nowadays - so we're filling a niche.

In the end, browsers are great but mobile safari doesn't yet let you have access to everything you can get in Cocoa. We want to open those features up to anyone with a Wordpress site.

Mike

<comment><USER6> > _Everyone wants an app nowadays_

Every _merchant_ wants an app, but their customers couldn't care less. Not that it affects your business model in any way.

<comment><USER7> I feel like everyone with content on the Internet wants an app. My old co- founder wasted about 3 months worth of time talking with an Obj-C dev and drawing screens because he was obsessed with having an iPhone app. His proof that we needed it? Every time someone saw our icon on his iPhone (which just launched our site in Safari) they'd ask if we actually had an app. These people wouldn't even use our site in the first place, I'm not sure what made him think they'd use an iPhone app instead, yet he was dead set on getting one into the app store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Have you run this past Apple with regards to their App Store approval policy? I'd be worried about clause 2.12:

"2.12 Apps that are not very useful, are simply web sites bundled as apps, or do not provide any lasting entertainment value may be rejected"

<comment><USER9> This is a very legitimate concern. As an app developer who has had an app rejected 6 months ago on similar grounds (section 10.6), it is something that should be tested. Upon my app being rejected, I added things like push notifications and it still got rejected for the original reason.

For your reference this was the complete description of the rejection:

</comment></comment><comment>=

10.6

We found the user interface of your app is not of sufficient quality to be appropriate for the App Store. Apps that provide a poor user experience are not in compliance with the App Store Review Guidelines.

Specifically, we noticed your app does not take advantage of the iOS platform. It would be appropriate to add iOS specific UI and functionality.

Please evaluate whether you can make the necessary revisions to improve the user experience of your app.

Alternatively, you may wish to consider building a web app using HTML5. HTML5 is the major new version of HTML and enables audio and video to play natively in the browser without requiring proprietary plug-ins. Using HTML5, web apps look and behave like native iPhone and iPad apps, and using HTML5's Offline Application Cache, your web apps work even when the device is offline. With web apps, you have flexibility to deliver as much or as little functionality as you desire.

If you wish to build an HTML5 web app, you can do so and distribute it directly from your web site. It is not appropriate to resubmit an HTML5 web app to the App Store.

To get started with iPhone or iPad web apps, please review Getting Started with iPhone Web Apps.

For a description of the HTML elements and attributes you can use in Safari on iPhone, check out Safari HTML Reference: Introduction.

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice idea. I'd be interested to know (and if you're willing to share with the community):

1\. What was your job.

2\. How much did you get paid.

3\. How much savings(runway) do you have to support this product.

Thanks!

<comment><AUTHOR> 1\. I was a software engineer that got an MBA and was doing management consulting. 2\. Over 80k / year 3\. My runway is private, but we financed ourselves by taking on short-term iOS/Wordpress dev/design consulting gigs to stay fed.

<comment><USER11> Since when is 80k / year "high-paying"? Hopefully the per diems were high enough to compensate the salary level.

<comment><USER12> Whoa. Let's not forget that 80k/year puts a person among the top 0.78% richest people in the world. [1] Just offering a bit of perspective.

[1] <http://www.globalrichlist.com/how.html>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's a cool idea with a few players in the field. Did a quick check on a WP Blog and the application sandbox keeps crashing.

I only have two concerns. You are entirely at the mercy of Apple with this product. There isn't too much customization available so Apple may at some point decide to reject your customers apps. A lifetime membership might not help without the code for customization if you ever go offline. The second is the other players in here. I think people are going to want a lot more customization.

Either way, you've selected a market with a lot of demand. WPTouch and <http://www.wiziapp.com/> are the main competitors I can think of. (WPTouch built into an app of course)

</comment><comment><USER14> Genius, I'd invest all my money into this idea. From a marketing perspective:

1\. big market (a lot of wordpress sites run by small & medium businesses that would love an easy and cheap app) 2\. practically sells itself (costs, ease of use, service) 3\. if possible try to roll it out both ways (drupal and android)

Questions:

1\. What about more complex and altered WP sites? 2\. What will your to-market strategy be? More specifically: target customer

Again, a great idea and a very good feel for what the market needs. Congratulations!

</comment><comment><USER15> Interesting idea, but can't get it to work. I created a test account and added 2 WordPress blogs to it: TechCrunch and the official Wordpress blog (<http://wordpress.org/news/>). Went through the steps, downloaded the sandbox app on my iPhone 4S and tried to preview them. App instantly crashes when loading both sites. Is it just that these blogs don't have the required JSON plugins (possible)? Or is it that they have too much content for Appifier to handle? Either way, an abrupt crash doesn't inspire confidence. Do you have any sample blogs we can try to test this with?

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry Magsafe, you need to have JSON API installed. This is written on the site.

<comment><USER15> My point was the app should never crash, for whatever reason. You need to handle failures gracefully.

<comment><USER16> (read as: this toaster didn't fail gracefully when i tossed it in the tub)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> For those having trouble with the site, I ended up looking at Google's cached copy and then finding the walkthrough youtube video that you can watch here: <http://www.youtube.com/embed/QkwDDB0I5_g?autoplay=1>

<comment><USER18> That video is really well done. The product looks slick too. I do wonder how much demand there is to read individual blogs on an iOS device? Would an RSS reader meet the demand better?

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> First, congratulations!

The site looks good and the product seems interesting and useful.

Unfortunately, you're getting hit hard with HN traffic being number one on the front page currently and thus things are slow.

However I was able to load the index page and watch the introductory video.

One thing that bothers me is I clicked on your Terms of Service link and was prompted to login: you might want to consider making as much available to logged out users as possible and esp things like terms of service which I may want or even need to read before signing up.

Otherwise, best of luck!

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about that. We redirected all of our traffic from our marketing vps to our appserver (heroku) to handle the load. Check back tomorrow for the terms or send us an email.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I don't want to knock your product, because I know site owners will love it, but does anyone actually like and use these simple apps that wrap a website?

<comment><USER21> Yes. I do, for one. For a site you like to use every day, being able to just tap and swipe to get to everything is so much better than constantly pinch zooming, aiming for little links, waiting for the page to load, pinch zooming, aiming for little links, etc. of a website.

<comment><USER22> _of a website._

Of a non-mobile optimized website.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Congratulations on the move to startup life! Great looking website and nice user experience for publishing.

Posting the service on HN is one of those things I wish I had thought of a few months ago, I still have a lot to learn - thankfully a friend sent me this link since he knew what we were doing. TainoApp (<http://gettainoapp.com>) does all that (Wordpress to native iOS app), plus full platform support for Windows Phone 7, and Android (wrapping up Blackberry and MeeGo support as of this posting) you can see it at work here - <http://goo.gl/nuZcm>. So far, it seems we're the only ones that can do Windows Phone 7 - hopefully someone in the community can point out other projects we haven't heard from that already does it, so that we can continue learning from others.

We have the tech specs ready for implementing support for most of the CMSs out there (Tumblr, Posterous, and others including Tresite - heavily used in latinamerica), but decided to focus on Wordpress installs first since the install base was larger we were able to churn out an mvp faster since we were more familiar with the wp architecture.

Our focus had been on engaging one on one with customers and quietly testing out different revenue models - but this kind of torrent of feedback would have been truly welcome. It wasn't until the start of the new year that we decided to test an introductory offer for the platform - aimed at the latinamerican market first (it's google translate friendly - <http://goo.gl/Y5JZL>). I felt we were missing a lot of the features I wanted, so I held back from doing a public push to get feedback - that was a big mistake. Seeing everyone's comments for Appifier has been an uplifting experience - so keep at it!!! One of the toughest things I've felt is being out there and being open to scrutiny by other startups. Maybe we can chat sometime and talk a bit more about some of the mistakes we've done along the way - drop me a line at jramphis at gettainoapp dot com. Best of luck!

<comment><USER24> Don't you think you should've posted this in a seperate link? It seems like you're trying to hang off Appifier's coattails...

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Sites that hit the homepage on HN crash so often I dream of quitting my job to launch a startup whose sole service is to HN-proof your site </jest>

<comment><USER26> +1

<comment><USER26> I love these people who are voting me down cause I am giving positive feedback on HN. LOL!

<comment> mike-cardwell What feedback? All I see is "+1" ? There are upvote buttons for a reason.

<comment><USER26> Ah ok. Let the hate continue.

<comment> mike-cardwell I downvote people who respond "+1" for the same reason that I downvote people who respond "LOL OMG ME TWO!" To improve the signal:noise ratio. Downvoting you was and continues to be, the correct course of action to achieve this aim.

<comment><USER26> I actually agree with you, once you bothered explaining.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Congrats on the launch. I have some feedback, but a random question for you first - did you work at Deloitte in their S&O practice?

Now for the feedback - assuming your audience is a non-tech WordPress user, I'm suggesting that you do A|B testing on the use of "Native App". From experience talking to clients on the marketing team or communications team, most don't know the difference or meaning of "native app". To them, an app is an app is an app - native or not.

The key question that these folks care about is "will my app have a custom icon that represents my brand", "can i submit to the app store", and "will my customer see this icon on their iPhone once they download it?".

So, my hypothesis is that if you strip "native app" from your copy (all of your copy) and just focus "custom app", "custom icons", "app store submission", "WordPress to iPhone", your target audience won't miss a beat and won't blink at "native app".

If you end up testing this out doing A/B tests or user research, I'd love to hear the results.

</comment><comment><USER28> Cool! I will be using such a service several times this year. Honest question - what makes your service more special than the other services out there that claim to do the same thing?

P.S. I do like the one time charge option... I haven't seen many that have that as an ooption.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks dholowiski!

Here's a few ways that we stand out: * Our apps can be distributed on the app store like all other native iOS apps. You can even charge for these apps and we won't take a penny. * We support push notifications. You can send messages to users of an app as long as they have it installed on their phone. * All content is available offline, even when the phone is in airplane mode. * Our architechture opens up the possibility of more interesting native features (text-to-speech among other things) * You can preview your app on your phone and get a really good feel for how it will look and operate once deployed. * When your app is deployed, you can change its parameters and branding at any time. Changes are updated across your installed base instantly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Do you include the WP markup in your generated app? Or do you transform the markup into Objective-C code (so no HTML/CSS included in the app)? The latter would be much harder to implement I think.

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm not sure I see the benefit of converting a website into a pseudo-app, then charging for that app. Users would effectively be paying for the wrapper when the same content is available without charge via a browser. I realize this happens all the time and there are a plethora of site shortcuts-as-apps in the app store, but the fact that they are abundant doesn't make the practice any better.

I'm honestly curious about the use cases for this and what extra value this provides for the user over using the website in a browser.

<comment><USER21> The site owner wouldn't have to charge for the app (unless I missed something). They just now have a native app for their website. Native app interaction speed and offline use are obvious advantages over using the blog in the mobile browser, so there's definitely value here. And the number of WordPress sites is so huge (over 70 million) that there's undoubtedly a market for this.

<comment><USER30> Unless the app auto-updates its content to be sure it is always in sync with the website, having native app speed and offline use grows increasingly less desirable the farther out you get from the date the app was created. For Wordpress sites one would expect new content daily. If Appifier pulls content and makes it all available offline that's great, until/unless the site being "appified" has new content. Will the app re-roll itself to incorporate that new content for offline and/or native access? If not then an appified site is useless the moment the app is generated.

I'm not questioning whether there is a market for this. I'm questioning the purpose and value to the user if it's really nothing more than a snapshot of a dynamic site or just a site shortcut.

<comment><USER31> You should check out the site when its back up, obviously the app auto updates when new content is published.

It works because you have to install a plugin in your WP blog, which presumably has WP publish/edit hooks etc which notifies an Appifier service, which then pushes to the apps, making sure all content is up to date and available offline. It's a pretty popular, if not the only, design for content surfacing apps.

<comment><USER32> It is actually not obvious. Now the site is back up I can't find anything that explains how updates are handled, or how offline works. For all I can tell the plugin might just be to build the app... I hope you are right as that is more useful. Some explanation would be good...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> This is awesome, I know loads of people who will use this, including me if I ever have time! A couple of questions though:

How does payment/subscription work? Is there a limit to the number of apps you can publish under the monthly plan, or is there a cost per app and then a monthly fee for the analytics and push? Is there a nice user interface for push? Where can I see a demo of it all in operation (the management of an app that's out there)? :)

</comment><comment><USER34> Congratulations! I am sure its a proud moment after taking the big step in life :).

A nice concept as well (btw, the hackernews effect is slowing down/timing out your site).

On a tangential note (maybe), are you also liking running the startup (a company)? I am sure developing the product would have been an awesome experience, but when it comes to manage and run the company it calls for something else. How are you liking that?

</comment><comment><USER35> Go Montreal ! :) Slight issue though - I created an app, says everything went well, downloaded the sandbox, but nothing appears under "My projects". Does it take time to update ? Also, "Push composer" and "Analytics" in my admin panel link to "#". Are these just placeholder links to let users know that the functionality is coming ? Good job on shipping the product !

<comment><USER36> go mtl!

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> How is this app different one WPTouch which also turns your WordPress into something iPhone friendly: <http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/wptouch/> I know you turn the site into a native app, but WPTouch works just fine with HTML and CSS. Is there something I'm missing?

<comment><USER38> WPTouch doesn't put you in the app store, it just makes your site usable from a mobile browser.

<comment><USER13> You can wrap WPTouch into a native app with a little bit of work. The selling point for this service that there is little to no effort for anyone involved to get the native app submitted and with support for push notifications.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> <http://mobilito.net/>, the free website I launched this week (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3419941>), could help you to promote the app: show users how their website looks awful/unusable on mobiles currently.

</comment><comment><USER40> At what point is it okay to post you have started a new website / business on hacker news?

Here goes my karma. Since we are doing shameless plugs here are my two (and yes I quit very high paying jobs ... 1.5~2 times more than @gozman ...):

<http://snaphop.com>

<http://evocatus.com>

<comment><USER41> Good stuff, but I'm a bit confused by what SnapHop is. From the landing page it sounds like you are an agency, but you talk about a platform. What exactly (i.e. not marketing speak) does the platform let me do? Where can I see it in action?

<comment><USER40> Signup an see! I'll upgrade your account also for free and give you SMS if you blog about us. Yes we need a better video somewhere. We kind of went the enterprise route as our competitor did (<http://44doors.com>) where showing less unfortunately pays you more.

<comment><USER42> For what it's worth "sign-up and see" is an awful response to a potential user being confused about what your service does.

I think you should consider changing your landing page to make it explicit how you can help local businesses. That may mean removing some of the myriad of use cases you describe.

My $0.02, obviously feel free to ignore.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Don't stress on missing your opportunity. Your 'How Hacker News crashed my site' post will get just as much traffic

<comment><USER44> so true.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Would be interested to hear how you (and others) handle the transition from salaried work to startup life...

</comment><comment><USER46> Nice idea! I like how it's focused on wordpress and iphone (rather than turn any website to android/iphone/etc.) Care to share some implementations details with follow HN-ers? :) I.e. Do you have a "plugin-converter"? How do you transform the "normal screen width" to a "mobile feeling"?

<comment><USER13> He's using a Native App. If you are looking for a free plugin to get a mobile feel you should use WPTouch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The word "native" jumped out at me. I wonder, for the target users you are aiming, if it's enough to say "...an iPhone app...". To me, it's the same feeling as "to kill a running app". It's common for tech people to say but doesn't have personal touch.

</comment><comment><USER48> Typo: Sign up today and see just how quick and easy it can __free__! No credit card required.

<comment><USER49> Lol. I caught that too, had to read it twice to make sure I didn't miss a play on words though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I can't believe that slipped through!

<comment><USER50> If the Google SERPs for your site are up to date, you've also spelled WordPress wrong in the meta description (should be uppercase P).

I know the WP guys are very passionate about their capital P: [http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/capital_P_dang...](http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/capital_P_dangit)

:)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Why you are using JSON API instead of XMLRPC which is more popular and enabled by default for some providers such as wordpress.com?

Disclaimer: I am doing similar thing and will launch soon..

<comment><USER52> I guess because the app was made using:

rails c scaffold Post name:string .......

The rails scaffold default replies from controllers are html AND JSON.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Nice demo video, although I am not sold on the idea people want or need to consume blogs natively on their phones. But, hey, hat tip for testing the idea in real time :)

<comment><USER54> Fortunately for OP, it doesn't matter if people want or need to consume blogs natively on their phones. It matters if business owners want to be able to tell people that their business has an iPhone app. And they do.

<comment><USER53> Good point! :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Very very nice concept. Would attract so many WP site owners who want to have an app.

Please share some technical and transition stories. Also is the homepage a little slow, or just me?

<comment><AUTHOR> Our VPS that hosts the website seems to be on fire. However our app is up and running just fine - <http://engine.theappifier.com>

<comment><USER56> Do you need a beefier VPS? I can have it deployed fairly quickly. LMK (not looking for compensation for this).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Why did you choose to form an LLC instead of a C-Corporation?

<comment><USER58> from my personal history, LLCs are just easy, but provide many of the same protections that a c-corp do but with less hassle. The only problem is growth and # of founders; it is harder to provide stock options and gets complicated during tax season when you have more than a couple founders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Interesting.

This looks like a container similar to PhoneGap, but more specialised to some sort of feed from the WP website, perhaps RSS.

Is there really that large a market for this sort of thing?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not a container at all. We leverage a plugin that provides a JSON representation of the Wordpress site content.

We consume the JSON to display the Wordpress content within a fully native UI and give access to all the speed, features, and benefits that a fully native app has to offer over web or hybrid apps.

<comment> john-n Assuming this is one of the standard JSON plugins for wordpress, be cautious of what this may do to the main sites load. The default install can force calls to skip the total-caching plugin most sites use, as it wont use the cache on any request with parameters.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> This is a concept that I had a lot of fun thinking about but never had the resources to make happen. Good luck. Can't wait to be a client. Looks very promising.

</comment><comment><USER61> Bad signs, it's slowing down. It's taking more than 20 seconds for me to load. Scale it up, scale it up fast, buy more processing power from your host

</comment><comment><USER62> Does converting a WP site to a native app really enable more "features" than, say, WP's own mobile styling or something similarly built with HTML5?

</comment><comment><USER63> I guess WP is the first step, I'd love to see this also for Other blogging engines like blogger, posterous or tumblr.

</comment><comment><USER61> Wish you all the very best. Make sure you scale up today, as I am going to pitch for you wherever my reach is.

</comment><comment><USER64> Your dream was to write software to reformat Wordpress generated HTML so it can fit on an iPhone screen?

</comment><comment><USER65> How do you handle the random WP plugn?

</comment><comment><USER66> WPtouch == 90% bang for $0 bucks + 1 minute time investment. TheAppifier's nativization of blogs has its niche: \- for blogs that has large, religious, passionate following. \- for marketing departments who love to announce "immediate availability of mobile app".

It does not add any "native" functionality though - just save people from typing URL in mobile browsers. True/false?

</comment><comment><USER67> Nice idea. With 10K people signing up for lifetime you get 499*10K = almost 5 million, not bad!

</comment><comment><USER68> Do you have any ballpark numbers for wordpress hits day -> expected revenue from appifier?

</comment><comment><USER69> I'm one of the team at PrimaryBlogger and we would be interested in using this :) Good work!

</comment><comment><USER70> Cool idea, but this is just going to make the signal:noise ratio in the app store worse =(

<comment><USER71> I don't feel that a lot on the app store... the sorting by relevance seems to work well, at least in my experience.

that said, I suffer it on the Android market, where everything I search returns a thousand different apps in random order (e.g. search for Skype retrieves a dozen apps - some times Skype itself is not even the first result)

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Logo suggestion: The 'f' in the font you're using can very easily be mistaken for a T

</comment><comment><USER73> gozman, you are an inspiration.

</comment><comment><USER74> Nice site! Glad you made the jump to follow your dreams, good luck!

</comment><comment><USER75> Looks like you're coming into the same space that OnSwipe is in.

</comment><comment><USER76> Very nice idea. Couldn't stop admiring it. Congratulations!!!

</comment><comment><USER77> nicely done! i wish i could do the same, must do the same ; )

</comment><comment><USER78> risky idea. sounds good but apple just hates template-apps.

</comment><comment><USER79> Congratulations on starting out on your own. Takes courage.

</comment><comment><USER80> nice work,pretty useful for bloggers,I believe.All the best for your startup.Btw,How long did it take to launch this startup after you left your previous job?

</comment><comment><USER81> This is a neat idea. Best of luck! Looks great.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> our site is back up now. visit us at <http://theappifier.com>

</comment><comment><USER82> great idea! who do you think the target market is for this? developers that create corporate websites?

</comment><comment><USER83> I can't get the site to load.

<comment><AUTHOR> Our VPS is on fire - we didn't expect this kind of traffic. However our app is on heroku and running fine : <http://engine.theappifier.com>

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> cool idea, looks nice, thanks for sharing

</comment><comment><USER85> What tools did you use to convert PHP to obj-c?

</comment><comment><USER16> very clever logo btw. I like the riff on the established convention.

</comment><comment><USER86> Nice idea but you have some competition. Won't mention sites on here, played with a identical solution a few weeks ago. Also found somewhere that is doing a WP app for a one off charge of $17, you download source code, edit it, compile it and submit it to the app store.

Dave

<comment><USER87> Competition should generally be looked at as market validation. How many companies have competition and are doing fine?

<comment><USER88> I had the exact same idea a year ago. Looked for competitors and found one very good looking that provided this service for free, with a great website. That's why I didn't develop it. I hope there's enough demand so that op has success, though.

<comment><USER52> I was the CEO of a startup and I spoke to people who had the same idea that I had. They had the idea a year early but I was lunching the product.

I don't think you should stop startup up a business because there are competitors.

Competitors don't kill you. Most entrepreneurs kill their ideas themselves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> Nicely done. does it only support blog type of web-sites are can you handle more of custom wordpress sites as well? For example can it handle membership type of sites where payment processing is required via CC or Paypal?</comment>


Ask HN: Lisp development for Android? - <AUTHOR>

Does anyone have some experience with using Lisp for software development on Android? I guess Clojure is always an option, but what are the alternatives? <comment><USER2> Here's an HN discussion from a month ago on the general topic: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1217845>

A Scheme running on top of Dalvik or on the "bare metal" (if that's allowed) strikes me as probably the best bet for now.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have no experience, but I believe Kawa Scheme was the first Lisp to demonstrate the ability to run on Android.</comment>


Lessons from Tracking My Productivity and Sleep - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@muneeb/my-obsession-with-personal-analytics-3db6f4e0d690

<comment><USER2> This is a crisper and more tightly written version than one previously submitted (and now deleted, because this is better).

There was one comment[0] on the previous submissions in which slvv[1] said:

        This kind of activity tracking and productivity management
        is so helpful for students at a variety of levels.  I wish
        these skills were clearly and intentionally taught either
        in high school or in early university! Even if everyone's
        goals and patterns are different, figuring out what works
        best is a HUGE asset. Your observations about your ability
        to estimate are especially interesting!

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9522634](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9522634)

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slvv](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slvv)</comment>


ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard - <AUTHOR> https://zsa.io/moonlander <comment><USER4> I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ever be saved by marginal improvements in productivity, and my poor posture is by far the greatest risk for injury.

It's become about completing myself. Filling the void. Materialism: the belief that acquisition of something outside myself will finally bring me permanent satisfaction. But if you'll excuse the metaphor, the void we try to fill is a black hole of the cosmic variety: its pull grows as it is fed. Shoveling in expensive ergonomic equipment is little different from shoes or bags or guns or radios or funko pops.

Anyway, this _next_ $250 I spend on an endlessly-adjustible retractable keyboard tray & fancy ergonomic keyboard will surely address all my complaints...

<comment><USER5> The best keyboard I can think of is one that tells me to get my butt out of the chair and go for a walk every two hours.

<comment><USER6> You can probably make that happen with the QMK firmware: make the whole thing stop two hours after being plugged in. Or have a key sequence to restart the timer. (so that you don't have to unplug and plug it all the time)

That'd be an interesting feature honestly.

<comment><USER7> The keyboard in the submitted post comes with a buzzer built-in. I think they had one in the Planck that beeped when it turned on or connected to bluetooth or something. So you could program QMK to do this almost certainly! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I wish people would just copy the MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, but with better keyswitches. As things stand, every split keyboard with nice keyswitches has a different layout from every other, which is odd, considering how much this type of device relies on muscle memory to work.

(Also, most of them miss one or more of F keys, symmetrical meta keys, standard navigation cluster layout, volume buttons - it's like they want their devices to be less useful, not more!)

Particularly annoying when there's such a wide range of non-split keyboards with nice keyswitches. You've got all the bizarre layouts you can eat, but you still get the option of a more standard one too.

<comment><USER9> I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS.

But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless.

Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market.

For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more than good enough. It has really low latency [1]. I wonder if other low-travel switches are the same or if it has a particularly speedy firmware.

[1] [https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/](https://danluu.com/keyboard- latency/)

<comment><USER10> For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg- up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboard. I wish they offered an even cheaper version without the silly Mouse in the package.

It has a reputation for bad build quality but i've been lucky with mine. Also be careful to not loose the wireless dongle as the keyboard becomes a brick without it.

<comment><USER9> They do offer a version with OEM/business packaging and no mouse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've been eyeing the Ergodox-EZ for a few months and this was an instant buy for me. Lately I've been rotating between TKL keyboards and the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic, but my right wrist is still getting worse.

I looked at over a dozen split keyboard options. Seems like no matter if you build or buy, it'll cost around $300. I decided I didn't want to also buy a soldering kit and wait months for parts to arrive.

Here's a comparison site between all the known split keyboard layouts (no moonlander yet though): [https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)

<comment><USER12> Try the Kinesis Advantage, got one with red switches, I do not type faster, but it's very comfy for my old wrists and I do not make many mistakes. Bonus, the configuration is stored as text files that shows up in a "usb drive" on the desktop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> One thing I have never been able to understand about split keyboard designs is why they don't put the characters on the split ("Y/T G/H V/B/N") on _both_ sides of the keyboard. I mean, are key caps a high cost? There's a correct way to type, but it doesn't need to be so strict. Sometimes (often) the natural use of a keyboard (like holding down a control character for a sequence of keys) makes it so that we type on the wrong side because one hand is badly out of position.

<comment><USER14> This keyboard, and the Erdogox EZ I bought a month ago are reprogrammable! There's a slick web UI that can generate firmware for you so you can reflash a keyboard's firmware.

You can also download the source code of your keyboard;s layout, program it and flash it yourself. It's called QMK

Here's mine: [https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox- ez/layouts/64YXl/la...](https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox- ez/layouts/64YXl/latest/)

Last but not least, on this keyboard and most mechanical keyboards you have the ability to change keycaps to whatever you want.

I'm a touch typist, so i switched to blank keycaps [https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank- keysets/](https://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-blank-keysets/)

<comment><USER13> But the keys in the middle are differently sized; there are two of them for the three rows of keys. You can reprogram, but you can't just add a regular "Y" key on the left and a "T" key on the right that are where they are supposed to be.

<comment><USER15> The hardware is open; you can build or modify the keys as you please. There a number of variants with different key layouts: [https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox](https://deskthority.net/wiki/ErgoDox)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The thing i like best about ZSA, is that they are selling products. Just buy, configure with a nice web tool. No soldering, assembly or programming required to make it work.

All other Ergodox, or Ergodox alternatives, seem like much more work to get working the way you want.

Anyway, the thumb clusters were my primary annoyance with my Ergodox, so i ordered a Moonlander. I hope it works out.

<comment> benji-york For another take on thumb clusters, check out the Diverge: [https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/](https://unikeyboard.io/product/diverge/)

<comment><USER16> Honestly, the three-normal-buttons thumb cluster seems worse than the three- long-buttons in Moonlander. But would be nice to try it if i get the chance.

<comment><USER17> You press the key on or close to the the near edge using your thumb either way, so it really doesn't matter.

(This comment typed on an Ergodash: [https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash](https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash) It would be possible to press the key labelled with the noodle bowl using my thumb, although I'm not in the habit of doing so. I might try and make it a habit, now I think about it. The top half of the "Enter" on the right side is pointless; my keyboard has 2 small keys instead of the large one.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> For similar ergonomic keyboards (mostly DIY), there's of course a GitHub awesome list: [https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split- keyboards](https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards).

My personal favorite is the Lily58: [https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe...](https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/d9g3qe/the_build_is_done_lily58_pro_mt3_devtty_halo_true/). It avoids having a preposterous number of thumb keys and has a number row. And the OLEDs are a nice touch.

<comment><USER17> I recently forked the "awesome" list as it seemed a bit abandoned, but I haven't added anything to it just yet.

[https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split- keyboards/](https://aposymbiont.github.io/awesome-split-keyboards/)

(If anyone actually enjoys writing JavaScript, or can do it in their sleep, feel free to take over. I'm 95% a backend dev, so I was just aiming for something easy to maintain, ideally generated from something like a CSV file. The intention is to link to it from Reddit's /s/ErgoMechKeyboards.)

<comment><USER18> Nice visualization! I like how you added filters for all the different options. The repo I linked to is a fork of the original abandoned one; it seems to be being updated regularly (last merge 8 days ago).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This is pretty cool. I was thinking about ordering and building a dactyl manuform [1] after my latest upgrade, the kyria [2] which improved the inflammation in my index fingers, failed to truly solve my issues because they put my thumbs in a very contorted position. I love how you can rotate the thumb keys as its unnatural to have your thumbs press keys in the same direction as the rest of your fingers.

Having started with very generic ergonomic keyboards, and now progressing to hand built keyboards have taught me that if you are experiencing some sort of tendon, nerve, or joint issues from standard keyboard use, you really need to dive into the deep end and get the most ergonomic thing out there even if $300 for a keyboard, when you can buy one for under $20, sounds incredibly expensive. If you don't, you'll likely end up paying that much to just keep fixing or improving the situation. And if you don't try to fix the situation you'll pay for it in damage to your hands which to me has no monetary value* .

I might still choose to build the manuform, but it's nice that there's an option out there with adjustable thumb keys, I've never seen that before and I hope it becomes a trend in the split ergonomic keyboard world.

[1] [https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the- dactyl...](https://tomoakley.me/article/2020/01/1-month-with-the-dactyl- manuform)

[2] [https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the- kyria](https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria)

* _okay, maybe there is an exact amount in terms of how much money you can no longer make through typing ability that is lost, but my point is there is an intrinsic value to having fully functional hands._

<comment><USER20> Can you add more details about the problems you had with the Kyria thumb positioning? Too much usage of the inward thumb keys? Angles?

<comment><USER19> Its the angle of the thumb keys, which is the restriction of printing all the keys for one hand on one board. I like the keyboard linked here because the thumb keys are at a different angle. I really like the kyria though because of the aggressive staggering. It resolved a lot of issues I got because my middle finger is so much longer than my index finger. But in order to take advantage of the stagger, I have to keep my wrists at the same angle of the plate, and if I keep my wrists at that same angle then my thumbs have to hit the keys with their side and tuck to the side of my palm like a trex because there's not as much space between the thumb and the keys. The ideal angle that the thumb bends is roughly perpendicular to the angle the rest of your fingers bend. The thumb cluster though is a fantastic improvement over pinky modifiers, that's not my complaint.

<comment><USER20> I see. Yeah, sounds like a one of the Dactyl Manuform's is in your future. :-) Given the parametric nature, it seems like you be able to tune it to your specifics.

For me, on the existing flat thumb ergos, hitting the thumb buttons with the side of the thumb actually feels normal to me in terms of thumb & wrist motion. The primary issue is the angles and arc of the splaying of the thumb to hit the keys without having to contort my thumbs any. This is my biggest issue with the Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox.

The second biggest factor is that the tall Cherry style switches and keycaps requires a lot of travel distance for activation. One the more recent ergo boards, I've switched to lower profile switches and that makes a non-trivial improvement as well. My upcoming build is with the choc minis + low profile keycaps but with heavier springs so they feel more like the last generation of the 17" MBP keyboard (as opposed the crap that's Apple's done with their recent keys).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I like the idea of it, it's different enough from the standard design that it seems well thought out - but it's one of those keyboards/products I would love to be able to try for a while before committing myself to a purchase, to ensure I can get used to it and would enjoy typing on it. It'd be great to see some kinda local computer hardware/keyboard store open up for this purpose, but I guess it'd be too niche really to be profitable/popular...

<comment><USER22> That's one of the reasons I said in mu post that I'm happy that split keyboards are getting more attention.

Most of the people still don't know about them. If more people knew about the benefits they bring, problems they solve, they would be much more popular. That would bring the price down, increase the choices available, bring them closer to the users. So you could probably go to a local shop and test it.

But they would lose the exclusivity feeling they have now. Which one do you choose?

<comment><USER21> I think it would be better for the health of the population if split keyboards were less exclusive, along with different keyboard layouts like Colemak instead of most people being stuck on Qwerty which was designed to be awkward to slow down the typist to prevent typewriter jams.

Sure, it would be harder to tell who the early adopters are, in case it is any measure of skill or determination, but that's a trade-off I would be happy with - instead of being the odd ones out, we'd be pioneers setting the trend ;)

<comment><USER22> I think it's coming. More and more people are having problems caused by the position used with standard keyboards. But it will take some time to educate everyone, starting with doctors who need to keep up with 'modern health issues' caused by using the computer whole day.

Let's be philosophical: A journey of a thousand miles begins with a first step. We'll get there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This is interesting.

I have an ergodox, well two of them, and I think this does improve on the design. I read a user comment somewhere that said that the ergodox seems like the design got solidified when there were still improvements to be made, and for me that has been true.

Let's talk about some changes they made that I really like:

* The left side is the primary. If I ever want half a keyboard, I'll want just the left side. On the ergodox, the right side is the primary side.

* It's thinner. The bulkiness of the ergodox ez makes it look cheap, which it very much is not.

* The tilting of the thumb cluster might make that 3rd key accessible to me. On my ergodox, my thumbs can only operate two of the buttons.

* They tried a new layout on the thumb cluster.

Some other thoughts I have:

* I find it strange that the default layouts for both keyboards split the arrow keys. Some games use the arrows for moving the viewport, and I find split arrow keys unworkable for that.

* The rotating hinge for the thumb cluster is neat, but what about just moving them closer? The keyboardio Model 01 manages to get 5 workable thumb buttons with this. But it did sacrifice the rows beneath zxc and ,./ Maybe that is inevitable.

* The site is responsive, loaded fairly fast (550ms, which is good considering I'm on my work VPN. HN takes 250ms), and is smaller than I expected considering all the images (1.6MB).

* I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros etc).

* EDIT: I have been curious if a design where the thumb buttons push inward is workable. That direction seems more suitable to the thumb. Again, I think the issue is being able to fit the buttons without affecting the keys for the fingers.

Still, I'd probably give this a try if I needed a new keyboard.

<comment><USER24> There's defiantly layouts that have been made with the thumb buttons moved in. The Iris[1] or Corne[2] for example. Though you're now in custom keyboard territory which means you're either building it yourself, or finding a person/company to assemble it for you.

[1] [https://alexjj.com/images/iris- example.jpg](https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg)

[2] [https://alexjj.com/images/iris- example.jpg](https://alexjj.com/images/iris-example.jpg)

<comment><USER23> Mhm. Mhm.

I ended up looking at the options in [https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split- keyboards](https://github.com/pvinis/awesome-split-keyboards) based on your comment. I noticed all the ones that moved the thumb cluster in, also don't have the bottom row that the ergodox does.

<comment><USER17> The ErgoDash[1] has 7 keys along the bottom, of which either 3 or 4 are thumb keys (the 4th key can be soldered in two positions).

At least the way I set up my ErgoDash, either side can be primary. I think this is now standard.

> I find it hard to come up with uses for the fancier things the keyboard > firmware can do (eg dual purpose modifier keys, space cadet shift, macros > etc).

\- I have[2] a simultaneous press of T and 5 set to be F5. Similarly for the whole top row.

\- A short tap of my media key is "Media Next". A solid press is "Media Play/Pause". A long press is "Ctrl + Media Stop", which my media player recognizes as "Stop after current track". Something similar for the volume key.

\- Enter is a thumb key, but when held down it's Ctrl.

\- I have a window switching key, which holds down Alt and presses Tab, but keeps Alt held down for 0.5s in case of subsequent presses.

\- I have single keys for Ctrl+PgUp and Ctrl+PgDown, which switches tabs in many applications.

[1] [https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash](https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash)

[2] [http://www.keyboard-layout- editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...](http://www.keyboard-layout- editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123ecdaa15e9d15ec325b4)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This doesn't feel like a big step forward, like something new and revolutionary.

It's more like an iteration of previous models, with some small tweaks and perks.

But I'm happy that split keyboard market is getting more and more attention.

<comment><USER25> Yes, I'm disappointed to see that this isn't a contoured keyboard -- still waiting for a contoured keyboard (e.g. Advantage2) with the customization of the ErgoDox without having to build it myself (e.g. Dactyl Manuform).

<comment><USER20> Do you only use the Advantage at home/work? I.e., what do you do when you're traveling (or just using your laptop away from you desk)?

<comment><USER25> I don't bother traveling with the Advantage2 at all... it's a bit too big to do that comfortably.

I find it pretty easy to switch between laptop keyboard and Advantage2, so no problems there. So the Advantage2 remains on my desk while I just use my laptop's keyboard for meetings/on-the-go. I think the layouts are so different, my brain processes them separately.

<comment><USER20> Indeed. I started with the original Advantage a long time ago. After getting used to it, switching back and forth with the laptop keyboards doesn't scramble my brain.

But making the jump to the modern, smaller splits + multiple layers, etc. is another huge jump in ergonomics... and they are portable enough to travel with.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Neat! If you're interested in this kind of thing, I recommend also checking out the Kinesis Advantage.

<comment><USER27> I used a Kinesis Advantage for a few years before switching to the Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB.

My main complaint about the Advantage is that I kept hitting the arrow buttons in the bottom row unintentionally. Partly poor typing form, I'm sure, and of course I could have remapped them.

The other thing is that the Advantage is tall, so it's not great up on a desk, and it's not that comfortable on your lap. I think it's best in a tray, although some trays may not be tall enough for it.

As for the Freestyle, I like the split design, the customizable layout, and the customizable lighting (I have a different color for QWERTY and Dvorak). Add a couple of USB ports, and it would be nearly perfect. The "6" key is on the wrong half, and I might experiment with a layout that isn't staggered typewriter style.

I do tend to fidget with the position of the Freestyle throughout the day. This is another keyboard that might work better in a tray.

I don't know if I'd call this Moonlander "next generation," but it's an intriguing combination of what I like in the Advantage and Freestyle.

<comment><USER28> I have an advantage as well, and I've never accidentally hit the arrow keys or any other keys to be honest. How are you doing so? They're in a pretty out of the way location if you let your hands rest on the home row.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I recently bought and Ergodox-EZ, after previously getting my first mechanical keyboard (the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which I love).

I'm not a huge fan of it. So far, it seems like it's been a lot of work relearning habits, for little gain.

But oddly enough, my biggest gripe with the Ergodox isn't something I've heard people complain about - the lack of an extra column of keys on the right part. Basically, on a normal keyboard, to the right of the "l" key, you've got another 3 keys - a ;, a ', and the enter key. They're all pretty important.

But on the Ergodox, you only have 2 more keys. Meaning you either have to move the return key to somewhere else, or move the "'" key somewhere else. Both of them break tons of muscle memory, and for no real benefit IMO.

In addition, the lack of that extra column means that symbols like [], like -=, etc can't be in their regular locations. Obviously, as a programmer, these are all keys I use a _lot_.

I don't know that much about mechanical keyboards, but I really don't get why this choice was made. It seems like a completely self-own here, making it _so_ much harder to get used to this keyboard.

<comment><USER30> Those far keys are usually triggered by your weakest fingers -- return, for example, is triggered via your pinky and can often require you to stretch your pinky (and ulnar nerve) in unergonomic ways, leading to Cubital Tunnel Syndrome.

I find that a good introductory layout to this kind of keyboard is the Kinesis Advantage 2 [1]. As you can see a bunch of common keypresses usually delegated to the pinkies have been set on the thumb clusters. On my Ergodox, I also have symbols layers that allow you to reach common symbols without moving my fingers significantly from the home row. It definitely takes an adjustment period but my RSI definitely thinks its worth it!

[1] [http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/kinesis_keyboard_howto.html)

<comment><USER31> This is exactly why I love my Ergodox. My biggest hand issue was pinky pain, and with the ergodox I've moved basically all of the 'stretch' pinky keys to thumb/index finger. In particular moving backspace/enter/ctrl to the thumb cluster makes me feel like I can never use a keyboard without one again. It's completely eliminated pinky pain on both of my hands.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> The columnar layout thesis ("your fingers move vertically, not horizontally!") is wrong. Your fingers can move both vertically _and_ horizontally, but moving them vertically requires tensioning and releasing the tendons that travel through the carpal tunnel, while moving them from side to side does not. It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI.

I got partway through an Ergodox build before realizing this and will probably never use this thing.

<comment><USER33> > It's the exact opposite of what you want to be doing if you have wrist RSI.

Do you have a reference for this? I don't have it but use ergonomic tools to avoid such in the long term.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I badly want this, but with Topre keys. I have a couple of Topre FC660Cs and absolutely love the feel, durability and quality of the keyboard. A split would be really nice though.

<comment><USER35> I'm with you. I have the FC660C. Loved the feel and sound, but the tiny form caused my RSI, which prompted me to buy an ErgoDox EZ. Had to go back to Cherry switches, but I would love some CYO Topre switches to throw in there. I wish there was a bigger market for CYO switches, but I haven't found anywhere to get them.

<comment><USER36> CYO meaning choose your own?

I wouldn't hold my breath on the Topre front, the company is notoriously conservative in their offerings. They're also not mechanical switches; there's really no way to offer hotswap Topre switches. But there is a whole world out there other than Topre and Cherry. And you can swap them out easily since you have an ergodox ez. You can buy mechanical switches from several hobby sites like [https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches](https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches), it's pretty much plug and play

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Already had somwthing like this. The wires made it useless for me.

<comment><USER38> I never understood the appeal of wireless keyboards. Sure I understand for mobile but for a primary workspace the wire has never bothered me on the keyboard. I mean it just sits there and replacing batteries is a pain. Mouse is a different story since it moves. Is it just mobile or is there some other reason you hate wires on a keyboard?

<comment><USER39> 2 reasons why wired keyboards are annoying:

      1. Aesthetics; the wire looks ugly on an otherwise clean desk
      2. The wire takes up space that could be used for a notebook, coffee cup, mobile phone or whatever

I've had wireless keyboards at home and wired at work for years - wireless is much better IMO. On the batteries, they seem to last a very long time - <USER2> guess I change them once a year, or possibly 18 months, and that's with me using it all day, and then someone else often using it for a bit in the evening too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> _Hyper is Ctrl+Shift+Alt+Win /Cmd, while Meh is Ctrl+Shift+Alt. No sane application on your machine uses these, which means you get free system-wide shortcuts._

Ugh I wish Illustrator would let me use these, it only lets me assign shortcuts to cmd, cmd-shift, cmd-alt, and cmd-alt-shift. I would be so happy if I could add ctrl I to the mix, I have about thirty keypresses left unassigned and they are all kind of terrible choices.

I guess this means my setup is insane. I'm fine with that.

<comment><USER41> What OS do you use? Could you use something like Karabiner on OSX, I'm not an expert but I _think_ it allows you to map arbitrary key combinations to other key combinations that the program will accept

<comment><USER40> I'm on OSX and am already using Karabiner to remap capslock to cmd-alt-shift and fn to cmd-alt! The problem is that Illustrator only has so many key combinations I can set up, and I have all but thirty of them allocated.

I suppose I could do something terrible like have Quicksilver grab shortcuts that involved control and make it press menu items for me, I already have a couple of keypresses that invoke scripts to make AI do things that way, but that has complications like "now my key shortcuts are managed in two places" and "some of these shortcuts don't show up in the menus, which makes things complicated when I am doing a less-frequently-used shortcut".

(Now that I think about it I could maybe solve the second issue with OSX's keyboard shortcuts settings... oh, nope, "you cannot add keyboard shortcuts for the application Adobe Illustrator 2020". Also I'd have to remake them every time there was an update that changed the name.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> My take:

\- It's basically Ergodox EZ for the main part, from the same company.

\- The thumb block is more comfortable now, but 2 keys smaller.

\- The position of wrist pad is adjustable.

\- Backlight, legs, and wrist pads are included in the base set.

\- The price of the whole thing is about the same as of Ergodox EZ in a minimal set, without backlight and wrist pads.

Still not barrel-shaped as e.g. Kinesis Advantage; you can put the parts quite far aside, though.

Looks like a buy if you were planning to buy a mechanical ergonomic keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER43> Unfortunatley, I believe it's a mistake to move away from the 1.5u outer column used by the ErgoDox, since the pinky is a less accurate finger and benefits from the extra key width.

There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality.

I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device options like the UHK has.

<comment><USER44> My take after building my own fully-custom board is that the best ergonomics is had by ditching the outer column entirely to completely remove pinky reaching.

The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached.

My board: [https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC](https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC)

<comment><USER43> You are a legend, sir! I recall this being posted to reddit years back. I upvoted it then, and do so again now.

I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.

(Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs just 34 keys: [https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...](https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planck/keyboards/planck/keymaps/sb4dv)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Looks interesting. I think the Keyboardio Model 01 (or its successor) appears to be higher quality (an perhaps ergonomics) for slightly less money.

</comment><comment><USER46> As split keyboards go, there's a lot of different ones developed by the semi- pro community. Like for example Quefrency ([https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t...](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9jl46t/yaqb_yet_another_quefrency_build/))

</comment><comment><USER47> Is there a similar keyboard in the $100 range? I do not need changeable keyswitches or an ARM processor in my keyboard. Currently I have the Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard 4000 and I am quite happy with that. I just do not need a num block and think a split keyboard is easier for travelling. Are there any good split keyboards with hand rests in the $100 range?

<comment><USER48> You do need an ARM processor, though. It's fantastic to be able to remap the keys to anything you like. I didn't think I'd need it until I tried it, but now I can't live without it.

I wonder if you could put an Arduino into the MS Sculpt and get the best of both worlds. Or maybe you could make an Arduino with a USB port and just have it remap keys on the fly.

<comment><USER49> There is such a device. Hasu's USB-USB converter works with qmk/tmk and will work with (almost) any keyboard.

[https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0)

[https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb- con...](https://www.1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-converter/)

<comment><USER48> That looks great, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I appreciate that there is a market for ergonomic fancy keyboards, but can't we just get the standard keyboard right?

I wish that there was a keyboard company out there that focused on standard keyboards with attention paid to supporting all locales. Choice for the US consumer might be great but elsewhere in the English speaking world you start getting compromises. Essentially you can get a US keyboard with a few of the keycaps moved around. What you actually want is more than that, things like a double height enter key.

I dread to think what keyboard layout crimes go on outside the English speaking world.

Now, tenkeyless. Having the number pad is great if you do a lot of book- keeping but for most people it is not needed. If you are left handed then it makes as much sense as a fish with a bicycle.

But getting to know the jargon - 'tenkeyless' and 'tkl' is a journey in itself. If you are using your keyoboard to type words then you do want the keys for navigation - Page Up, Page Down, Home, End, Delete - plus the arrow keys. But mini keyboards just mess with the layout to maybe give you half the standard keys in non-standard places.

So, effectively 'tkl' plus a non-US locale means you are going to have a limited choice.

Now let's put in a few other common requirements - backlighting, wireless and wired operation, coffee proofing and silent operation. You can't get all these things with a non US locale and a 'tkl' keyboard. Sure there are many switch variants and fancy LED lighting schemes with ghastly keycap designs, but if you just want standard layout then it isn't going to happen.

It is sad to see Logitech, Microsoft and others offer us compromised designs that cost either a pittance of serious money. Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on buckling spring style feel?

<comment><USER25> > Why can't there just be a manufacturer that goes for the niche of standard > ISO rather than ergonomic, or with too few keys, or with some emphasis on > buckling spring style feel?

Those features are what the mass consumer market wants. Also, I'm sure Logitech and Microsoft have always offered a standard ISO keyboard.

> Ergonomic

People value the long-term health of their wrists.

> Too few keys

Usually to reduce desk space. In the case of the Planck, it's also to reduce finger travel.

> Emphasis on key feel

If I'm typing at my job all day, I want the thousands of keypresses I do to feel good.

> niche of standard ISO

Honestly, I think standard ISO/ANSI is awful -- the vast amount of design decisions are a relic of the typewriter age.

The rows are staggered because typewriter keyboards had physical vertical bars under the keys that would otherwise overlap. An ortholinear solution makes much more sense in the modern age.

The second most-used key, backspace, is positioned in the far right corner of the keyboard. One must move their entire right hand (or have a long pinky) to hit it. The spacebar, on the other hand, is wasted real estate because it completely occupies two of the strongest digits -- the thumbs. Thus, a better solution would be to split the spacebar with one half being backspace.

This isn't even going into the nightmare that is QWERTY. Regardless of keyboard, almost everyone is using an inefficient layout designed to place common keys away from each other.

Conclusion: just because it's standard doesn't mean it's the best choice. IMO, when it comes to keyboard layouts, the standard is the worst choice.

<comment><USER50> The ISO layouts for the UK have a two-row enter key.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards)

US keyboards don't. There is a backslash key above the single row enter key. Which is a key I have no real great use for. Maybe it rocked in the MS-DOS days but backslash doesn't really need that priority place.

So look at the Logitech keyboards for the UK. They offer one model with the true layout, i.e. a double height enter key. The rest have some US keys with UK labels on.

Now look at Microsoft. Again there is some massive backslash key instead of an ISO UK keyboard in all its glory.

What happens is that they take the US board and change a few of the key caps. They do not go to the effort of doing it properly.

There are other layouts, for example, German, that should have the big enter key.

Standards might not be optimal solutions. But at least you know where you are. You know what to expect. But with keyboards nobody sticks to the standards. If you look at the Logitech ones for instance they all have different fudges, such as arrow keys mangled together differently, just enough to trip you up if swapping between Logitech keyboards. Then things like rounding off the corner keys including escape. They do these awful design decisions on far too many of their keyboards.

The tenkeyless requirement is reasonable, laptops don't tend to have the num- pad. But is there a tkl keyboard out there with a standard ISO layout? Not if you combine that feature with wireless or a desire for backlighting. Nevermind switch choice.

Some people struggle with an Apple keypad due to the different modifier keys. God help anyone having to press a few keys on any of the ZSA boards. Might as well learn Dvorak keyboards. Or go all the way with a chord keyboard. QWERTY works and we all know it is not the best. But standards are not kept to when you move out of the US layout.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Ah this is really cool, quite similar to a keyboard I'm designing - [https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa](https://imgur.com/a/z31Zfoa) \- haven't designed a case yet.

They have taken an interesting approach with thumb cluster, single key on farend and 3 on near end of thumb. I did the opposite of that, on account of thumb being not that flexible in bent position.

Over the years my daily driver has been kinesis advantage2. I tried ergodox but really disliked thumbcluster placement and additional middle keys. I made a keeb.io Nyqist recently and got a few pcbs printed for Redox, need to build that out.

It is really hard to go back to non-split keyboards after using split for a while, and kinesis advantage is still the gold standard imo, concave keywell alone is the reason to spend north of $350 on it.

</comment><comment><USER52> I am at the point where I like to move my fingers minimally and with very low force required. I have an Apple wireless keyboard and I love the switches. Even my 2018 15" MBP is great.

I also desperately need a split keyboard. But these are dealbreakers:

* Requires me to learn a different finger pattern than the Apple keyboard (even ones with the Fn where "the control should be" are a problem for my muscle memory). I use the MBP too.

* Requires a lot of vertical movement, i.e. big deeply depressed keys

* Tall keys that require my wrists to hold my fingers in the air, or for my wrists to lay on supports which put all the weight on my wrists instead of my arms.

I have a Kenesis Freestyle for Mac, and I don't use it for these reasons, even though it relaxes my wrists rotation around the vertical axis.

<comment><USER20> I don't know of one that exactly fits your constraints. But there are so many and more being created all the time. Trying asking on [https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/)

In terms of the tall versus short keys... Look for one that you can get/build with either Kailh low profile "chocs" or their even lower profile "choc mini" switches. The "linear" versions will be most like the feel of the Apple keyboards.

</comment></comment><comment> tokamak-teapot My wrists ache badly if I type too much, despite all the adjustments I've made over the years.

I'm currently using an Apple wired keyboard angled so the front edge is higher, with my hands floating above it or sitting on silicon rests.

I also use Filco tenkeyless mechanical keyboards - one with blue and one with brown switches. I prefer the feel of these and make fewer mistakes, but I'm convinced they make my wrists worse.

I think the next options for me to try are split, tenting and staggered columns.

Is there a chance of trying these out without spending this kind of money? I don't think I'm up to the task of soldering switches, unfortunately.

<comment><USER53> Depending on the number of rows and columns you want there is quite a cottage industry of ergo keyboards.

I think the main ergo flat keyboard (staggered columns) with 3 rows 6 columns are the Gergo / Kyria / Corne depending on the number and placement of thumb keys (they can be found assembled to order).

For 3d / sculpted keyboards, this person is selling assembled to order Dactyl manuforms: [https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/](https://dactyl.bigcartel.com/)

A good reference for flat boards is [https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/](https://jhelvy.shinyapps.io/splitkbcompare/)

via [https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/s...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/f5h3d6/split_keyboard_layout_comparison_site/)

Then for the sculpted keyboards, mostly the Dactyl/ Dactyl Manuform families there are a bunch of vendors. The cheapest one is in the first link. Otherwise one guy is currently selling some of his split on reddit's mechmarket.

<comment> tokamak-teapot Brilliant thanks! That top link looks like it might be exactly what I was hoping to be able to buy

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> If anyone is interested in building their own split ergo:

[https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the- kyria](https://blog.splitkb.com/blog/introducing-the-kyria)

<comment><USER55> I think the Kyria would be perfect for me if it had individual RGB backlit keys. I love the idea of the rotary encoders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> Very interesting design. The page could really use a video of someone using it.

</comment><comment><USER57> Anybody else thought this is about a spacecraft when they saw the first two words of the title? For a moment I thought ZSA referred to some little-known space agency. Maybe Zambia or Zimbabwe Space Agency.

</comment><comment><USER58> Why do split keyboards charge a premium? Microsoft makes contoured keybords for 100usd. In India great quality mech keyboards costs $40, you bang it all day on games and it lasts.

I can pay for innovation but this style is old

<comment><USER4> There are only a couple competitors that are split, ortholinear, and mechanical (ergodox and some small custom others). They all charge over $300 afaik. You can get decent split/standard/membrane keyboards for $80-120 from goldtouch or kinesis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Stop making split keyboards! You don't need 2 separate pieces; all you really need are slightly angled keys away from the center. See the Truly Ergonomic keyboard[1] for example.

That layout also has the advantage of being a design you could use for a laptop, if only manufacturers put actual effort into their laptop keyboards.

[1]: [https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic- keyboards/](https://trulyergonomic.com/ergonomic-keyboards/)

<comment><USER49> There's room in the world for both designs; it's not really a zero sum game (unless you consider that people designing truly split keyboards would otherwise spend their time designing angled keyboards). Split keyboards can help accommodate people with different body types from yourself. I have a Kinesis Advantage 2 and it is ever so slightly too narrow for what i'd prefer for comfort with regards to my shoulders. When a keyboard is truly split you can adjust each side to be placed where it is best for you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> Split keyboards are really popular amongst the Japanese mechanical keyboard scene for some reason. Tons of people making and selling DIY split / ortholinear split kits.

<comment><USER47> Sounds interesting, do you have some links?

<comment><USER54> There isn't a great single resource I can point to, but try the twitter account Yusha Kobo[0], which is a keyboard shop in Tokyo. Not just their posts, but if you look at the feeds or likes of people they retweet, you should be able to find a bunch of examples.

[0] [https://twitter.com/yushakobo](https://twitter.com/yushakobo)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Is there any science when it comes to ergonomy and tall keys? I would expect tall keys to be more damaging to wrists over time due to awkward position and longer travel time.

<comment><USER61> I learned that the proper way to type is with your hands floating above the keyboard, and resting your hands on a wrist rest when not typing. I don't always do it, but when I do, the height of the keyboard relative to the table becomes irrelevant, instead it's more about height of keys relative to my shoulders and maintaining right angled elbows.

Also, to me the Moonlander keyboard and its keycaps do not seem particularly tall.

<comment><USER62> I use a wrist rest as well.

It's hard to get a good wrist rest - they seem to last for a month or a year on amazon, and when I want to re-order, they are unavailable.

I have a memory foam one about 3-4" deep and the width of the keyboard. It is soft enough, lifts and supports my wrists and keeps them warm.

I think the wrist support on this moonlander keyboard is a good idea, but making it out of cold, hard plastic does not make it look comfortable.

<comment><USER63> I find gel wrist rest better. It has less give while still feeling soft to my wrists.

<comment><USER62> I used to use a gel wrist rest but the one I bought disappeared. I tried a plain foam one (glorious gaming), but it was too hard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> I've had the EZ for a while now and my only gripe has been how much of a pain it is to travel with. The folding and carrying case made this an instant buy for me.

</comment><comment><USER65> When I see this I am really looking forward to just talking to my computer like to a real person :P

Keyboards are nice and in many cases a far superior input interface compared to a mouse/touchpad but in my opinion it is just a stepping stone towards "the real deal".

After voice interface there will be thought interfaces and then we can be productive if the hardware, apps and os-es are good enough.

</comment><comment><USER66> I've been working on redesigning one of my own. [https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt- esokb1/-/tree/development](https://gitlab.com/EllisGL/glt- esokb1/-/tree/development)

I do plan on making a normal staggered version of this, along with the other 40% in both normal and staggered columnar.

</comment><comment><USER67> I highly recommend the kinesis freestyle edge keyboard which costs around $200 but has roughly all the same features besides the thumb module.

I also highly recommend a split keyboard in general: my shoulder issues are noticeably better when using them.

A split keyboard may not help with wrist pain. Personally I was able to get rid of any wrist pain by strengthening through climbing.

<comment><USER25> I'm not sure if I agree with the Freestyle being an equivalent alternative. The Freestyle uses a traditional row-staggered layout while this keyboard uses a column-staggered layout. A column-staggered layout IMO is much more comfortable since your fingers are given their own dedicated column without having to awkwardly twist your wrist.

<comment><USER67> I agree this might be significantly better for some. The tenting is probably also better than the Freestyle Edge (which has only a couple settings).

If someone wants a first split keyboard though I think the Freestyle Edge is a much better starting point given the price difference and the fact that the non-letter/number keys don't have normal placements on the Moonlander.

Personally I tried the ErgoDox EZ and had to return it because it damaged my productivity since it doesn't support just using a normal keyboard layout. With a closer look this keyboard seems fundamentally the same actually so I wouldn't recommend considering to try it unless you use a keyboard all day long and even then be prepared to return it if it doesn't work out. The Freestyle Edge on the other hand is a sure bet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> Has anyone come across an ergo keyboard like this that has a mouse roller on the thumb pad? I think my arms would appreciate a way to interact with the mouse without moving my hands away from the keys.

I'm using a Kinesis Advantage2 right now, but I still need to move my hand to get to the touchpad.

<comment><USER55> The Kyria keyboard has sockets for rotary encoders on it, but that's more like a scroll wheel than a trackball. I've seen some folks hack them so that they can use Playstation style joysticks or thumb trackballs instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> Next-generation? What separates this from Ergodox or Keyboardio? And all of the above seem to be a step backwards from the Maltron and Kinesis Advantage which have been around for decades. Dactyl and the like are the only ergo keyboards I might label "next-generation."

</comment><comment><USER70> At that price it's in competition with fully contoured (i.e. not flat) mechanical keyboards.

<comment><USER71> Yeah. It Looks cool, some nice features. But splits with most of these features can be had for $150 or less, so I don't really see the appeal of spending 200 more without a commensurate doubling of functionality, ergonomics, etc.

<comment><USER72> can you provide some examples?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> If it's built as well as my Ergo from them. I look forward too it. They make some very refined and well thought out implementations of otherwise obvious keyboards. And they're open source firmware support is amazing.

</comment><comment><USER74> It still doesn't compare to a Kinesis Advantage 2 [1].

It's concave!

[1]: [https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/](https://kinesis- ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

<comment><USER75> Woof that thing is huge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER76> If it was 150Eur I'd go for it, 300+ is beyond my keyboard budget.

</comment><comment><USER77> Is there something like this that is wireless between the two halves? Split ergo keyboards look really neat, but like to keep my desk as clean looking as possible.

</comment><comment><USER78> No video of someone using it, at speed? Seems a bit sketchy.

<comment><USER55> I mean, it's a keyboard. Are you expecting the flux capacitor to get backed up and thrash the alluvial dampers or something?

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> a serious problem with these exotic keyboards is, you need two. They're too big to take with you to work.

I would not have coped well if not for Covid-19. When I am at the office im just there for meetings, because getting things done now on a normal keyboard is frustrating.

But really, my shoulder pain is so much less, it's ultimately relaxed being able to work both arms on shoulder width. Ban the mouse as well, and no more arm-swinging.

</comment><comment><USER80> Why does it need to contain an actual ARM processor?

<comment><USER81> Need to? It doesn't. Why might users care? Well, the kinds of people who are into custom keyboards often use custom firmware too... while this keyboard advertises QMK support, if I don't like QMK and want to use something else, which chips are inside matters.

Making this even more concrete, I am in the market for some new keyboards, and at least one of them is one I'd like to write my own firmware for. Rust is far more supported on ARM chips than on some of the other popular chips that are used to build keyboards, and so knowing this has one makes me more likely to buy it than others. I don't want this specific keyboard, so it isn't a win for me, but there are surely dozens of folks like me, dozens!

<comment><USER82> I think OP meant "Why does this keyboard need so much computing power". Most keyboards you can program use an AVR chip, which is more than enough, and you can also program that from Rust.

The jump from that to this ARMv5 CPU is similar to that from this ARMv5 to an Intel Xeon. And sure enough, if someone were to build a keyboard with an Intel Xeon, you could also program that from Rust. But the question still remains: why would anybody do that ?

<comment><USER81> So, this is 100% speculation, but....

Specifically, this has a STM32F303xC. Looks like (depending on quantity, of course), you're looking at $3 to $5. Their other well-known keyboard, the Ergodox EZ, uses an ATMEGA32U4-AU. It's also $3 or $4 on Mouser. I don't know what the actual BOM looks like in total, but it seems like this isn't significantly different in price? Especially at the likely volumes here?

I'm still new to this game, so maybe I'm missing something.

<comment><USER82> Thanks, this is an interesting discussion. I thought the arms would be much more expensive: [https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcu...](https://www.reddit.com/r/olkb/comments/6wt6mi/evaluating_mcus_for_a_custom_build/)

<comment><USER81> Nice, thanks for that link!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> This looks like a modest step back from the Kinesis Advantage with dishes keys, so not so much 'next-generation'.

</comment><comment><USER36> there are quite a few ortho split ergo offerings out there now. but still just one with curved key wells (as far as im ware) in the dactyl manuform, and that generally requires self-assembly. wonder why that is - <USER3> difficulty? lack of interest?

</comment><comment><USER84> $365 for a keyboard? Not sure I really need something like this for that price.

<comment><USER85> You probably don't, they are certainly not for everyone.

I have two of the earlier keyboards (ergodox ez). I gladly paid the price because it makes me more comfortable. I find it similar to a nice monitor or chair.

I don't know if my performance is better, but it's a nice piece of gear that's a joy to use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER86> Looks nice, but good luck getting me to part with my Kinesis Advantage 2!

</comment><comment><USER87> this looks really cool but I'm not sure I can get used to the arrow key layout. I suppose I could do some kind of mapping to turn IJKL into an inverted T arrow key bank.

</comment><comment><USER88> Awkward timing for me. I recently bought an Ergodox EZ and the main problem I have with it is that many of the thumbpad keys are too far away to comfortably use. I never thought of myself as having Trump-like tiny hands before but this keyboard looks perfect.

</comment><comment><USER89> I swear I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's insane that people pay this much for a keyboard, mouse, headphone, an so on. You can literally feed a family for a whole year in some countries with this money.

Good ergonomics are awesome, macros are cool, but this is like a Channel Bag for nerds, if you like it awesome but don't deceive yourself into needing it.

I love tech as everyone in here, I like my gizmos as well (Oculus quest being the most beloved one) so I understand, I just hate the consumerism that this type of item needs to survive, phones being the prime example of this, but a good keyboard ($100 range maybe) is probably marginally worst at it's task than this thing is.

Again, don't take it as a personal offence.

<comment><USER30> I used to think the same way as you. Then I got RSI and the only thing I can type on now without excruciating pain is my $250+ ergonomic keyboard. The other day I typed a short password on my Corsair gaming keyboard (standard layout, full size) and I literally sprained my left wrist immediately.

Honestly, after how much money I've spent trying to deal with my RSI (doctors, exams, physical therapy, home workout items and programs) the 250 is nothing for something that isn't exacerbating my injury and in fact reducing inflammation enough that things are finally healing.

<comment><USER89> Good to know! Fair point!

<comment><USER30> FWIW, I think the commentary around pricing is totally valid. Ergo keyboards are absurdly expensive; not everyone can drop the necessary 2 to 400 USD to acquire one of these. I don't know the economics but I'm sure part of it is driven by demand; there's a lot less people concerned with ergonomics than there should be, so no one's really incentivized to figure out how to mass produce these.

I would love it when an entry level ergo keyboard could be had for under 50.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Updating Dictionary in Python 3.9 - <AUTHOR> https://morioh.com/p/825e09f809d0?f=5c22e47440738156a7078a19 <comment><USER2> I tried to read this. I love Python, and am thrilled to see the language evolve.

This page has a massive sidebar, another massive sidebar that scrolls with the content, and another sidebar. The content for my screen had about 1" width to read.

The various sidebars inexplicable start and stop scrolling as I scrolled down, meaning I got through 1/4 and closed the tab.

Atrocious and anti-user.

<comment><USER3> The examples were good, so it's worse than just "yet another python page filled with ads". But I'll summarize them:

* First example, merge with update:

        # d1 and d2 being dicts
        d3 = d1.copy()
        d3.update(**d2)

* Second example, using dict():

        d3 = dict(d1, **d2)

* Third example (3.9 onwards):

        d3 = d1 | d2
        # or
        d3 = d1.copy()
        d3 |= d2

The examples also show how each operation works (tl;dr: last value assigned to a key "wins").

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wanted to read this, but an ad popped up over the screen which I couldn't find a way to dismiss. Even clicking the ad's call to action just opened another window, leaving the full overlay in place.

I might remember to try again on desktop where I can kill the element.

<comment><USER5> I think I was able to instinctively touch the background when it popped up for me (I tend to do these things without thought now). Seemed to work on iOS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> For those annoyed by the ad on this morioh.com blog post, the official Python website offers a succinct description of the same feature: [1]

 _Dictionary Merge & Update Operators_

 _Merge (|) and update (|=) operators have been added to the built-in dict class. See PEP 584 [2] for a full description. (Contributed by Brandt Bucher in bpo-36144 [3].)_

[1]: [https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html](https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html) "What's New In Python 3.9"

[2]: [https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0584](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0584) "PEP 584"

[3]: [https://bugs.python.org/issue36144](https://bugs.python.org/issue36144) "bpo-36144"

</comment><comment><USER7> I am sure this is useful, but I feel python is moving further and further from its zen ("preferably one way") in each version.

Also, the ads in this website are terrible.

<comment><USER8> The Zen of Python DOES NOT say "preferably one way" or "only one way", as often misquoted. As can be easily checked by `import this`, the relevant line says:

        There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.

The key word, so often ignored, is OBVIOUS.

Now, we can argue what "obvious" means, and what is more obvious to different people. But this one word makes a huge difference.

<comment><USER7> I specifically said "preferably" for this reason, and there always will be more than one way to do it, so obvious is implied.

This change explicitly creates a situation where you have two equivalent obvious ways to do one thing, dict.update() and dict.|=, and is the latest in a string of such changes.

I personally _like_ this change, but python used to be much more conservative.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> More generally, see What's New In Python 3.9 [0].

Plus, within the last few days, PEP 614 (Relaxing Grammar Restrictions On Decorators) [1] was also accepted for Python 3.9.

[0] [https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html](https://docs.python.org/3.9/whatsnew/3.9.html) [1] [https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0614/](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0614/)

</comment><comment><USER10> There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.

"There is not too many ways to initialize and merge dicts in python. Let's add one more!"

Which one is idiomatic now?

Imagine a large codebase where all these possible ways of doing one thing are inconsistent and misaligned. I remember myself replacing % string format notation with .format() everywhere. Just for the sake of consistency. And then they introduced one more way to format strings...

[0]: [https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0584/#motivation](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0584/#motivation)

</comment><comment><USER6> This is a small but welcome change.

Note that the two new operators introduced for dict

      a | b

      a |= b

brings the behavior in line with the same operators for set. [1]

[1]: [https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/stdtypes.html#set- types-...](https://docs.python.org/3.8/library/stdtypes.html#set-types-set- frozenset)

<comment><USER8> I have always found dicts and sets being pretty much basically the same thing, with dicts allowing for "attaching" additional values to the set items. In fact, before sets were introduced (in Python 2.3), using dicts (with elements for keys and some arbitrary values -- commonly None -- for values) was a common way to emulate them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> At a glance Python looks like Algol with nicer syntax but it's stuff like this, listcomps and decorators that let you do some very fun and terse tricks.

</comment><comment><USER12> Great</comment>