Repair cafés waging war on throwaway culture - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/15/can-we-fix-it-the-repair-cafes-waging-war-on-throwaway-culture <comment><USER2> As a repair café volunteer, I've found two drawbacks to being a volunteer/having repair cafés:

\- A small subset of people buy shitty products (1$ bicycle lamps, lights, cheap-as-shit appliances like clocks, hoovers, …). I have no problem fixing stuff, and showing them how to fix stuff, but I always refuse to try to repair really cheap stuff. It's not even repairing at this point, but more sticking it back together. When this case happens, I explain in good term that they should buy a slightly better quality next time; it'll last them longer

\- these cafés attract in general "alternative" people. I've got no problem with that, but I'm a bit fed up with conspirationists, anti-nuclear, really left-wing people.

But in general, it's a really rewarding experience !

<comment><USER3> >these cafés attract in general "alternative" people. I've got no problem with that, but I'm a bit fed up with conspirationists, anti-nuclear, really left- wing people.

If anybody ever finds a solution to this, every hackerspace in the world would love to know what it is.

<comment><USER4> It's unsurprising (and probably inevitable) that counter-cultural social clubs tend to attract nonconformists.

<comment><USER5> There isn't a culture to be cultured against any more. This isn't 1960 where there is one medium that connects 75%+ of people. What you have now are a lot of different cultures.

<comment><USER6> That's definitely not true. Travel to some country on the other side of the world and you can appreciate for yourself that, subcultures aside, there is a large body of shared cultural beliefs and practices that most of us more or less share.

<comment><USER5> Including the counter cultures.

I've yet to meet genuine American socialists, even your hard communists sound like Christian Democrats with some odd ideas of race thrown in.

<comment><USER6> I don't know if I'd say that, but the persistent idea that we're all charting a unique ideological course from first principles is, I think, somewhat characteristic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Also, we should praise companies that actually encourage and support repairing behavior.

Case in point: Baratza coffee grinders. They establish repairing as one of the companies top priorities and part of their mission.[0]

They sell almost every part necessary for fixing their grinders[1]. They deliberately make them easy do disassemble and reassemble and provide lots of instructions on how to fix most problems, both in print and in video.[2] They also have a program of buying used grinders to resell them refurbished. Whenever a model is upgraded they also sell the upgrading kit for owners of old models.

[0] [https://www.baratza.com/social- responsibility/](https://www.baratza.com/social-responsibility/)

[1] [https://www.baratza.com/product- category/parts/](https://www.baratza.com/product-category/parts/)

[2] [https://www.baratza.com/troubleshooting/](https://www.baratza.com/troubleshooting/)

<comment><USER8> I've had a Briggs and Riley[0] suitcase for about 10 years.

It came with a "lifetime guarantee" and so on. About 3 years ago it suffered some damage in handling, the normal abuse by Celebi[1] and I would definitely not consider it a manufacturing defect. But the promise was that it could take anything the airlines and their zombie hordes[1] could dish out, so I sent it back for repairs.

They repaired it within a weak and returned it at their cost, and I've been traveling with the same suitcase ever since. Had they not offered the repairs I probably would have bought a new suitcase.

[0]: [https://www.briggs-riley.com/](https://www.briggs-riley.com/)

[1]: [http://www.celebiaviation.com/en/yazi.php?id=75](http://www.celebiaviation.com/en/yazi.php?id=75)

<comment><USER9> That's definitely a great benefit of higher end luggage. Other brands with similar service are Rimowa and Tumi. With Rimowa I had a case where someone cut the into the luggage with a knife all around the zipper and they repaired it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Recently I almost threw away our stove because one of the burners melted. I was about 2 seconds away from submitting an order online for a new stove when my wife asked how we were going to dispose of the current one. Suddenly, I realized how tragic it is to throw something so massive. I got my screw driver out and tinkered behind the stove for 20 minutes, ordered a couple parts, soldered a little here and there, and had the whole thing 100% operational with a total output of about 2 hours. I honestly could hardly believe it myself. I did the same thing with a broken chainsaw too. And it's so rewarding to actually fix something.

If you're even remotely handy it's remarkable how easy it is to fix things that you might otherwise just throw away and replace.

<comment><USER11> Even if you can't fix it, there is value in tinkering with it. Over the years I've gotten to the point where I understand my limits, when I might be able to stretch those limits, and when to call in the professionals or just chuck it and buy a new one. Even when I can't fix it myself, I have a general idea of _what 's wrong_ so I can be much more confident in my decision to replace it; and if I end up calling in a professional, I can be confident I won't be getting ripped off.

The internet has also helped a lot. Specifically, a lot of howto videos show common gotchas, which in the past are the things that have usually caused me to either give up or to turn a $10 repair into a $500 replacement by making things worse...

<comment><USER12> Lemme second this comment. Everything you say is good.

One thing to keep in mind is that you need to understand when things can be dangerous. Like old tube-based equipment.

I still have a screwdriver that has divots scarred into it from discharging a couple of 500V can capacitors in an old (solid-state) stereo. Now, that's a great lesson... discharge caps if you're not sure about them, and I am glad I learned it.

I'm also quite glad that I did that on purpose with a screwdriver and not on accident with my finger.

I'm even more glad that I did some basic research to know that giant caps ougtta at least be thought about if you're gonna peek around in that kind of stuff.

<comment><USER13> Having been shocked enough to have a mini PTSD episode when seeing a flyback transformer, did anyone actually die from a normal cap discharge? Unless it's a large subwoofer capacitor, the stored energy is not enough to do deadly damage, even if it's in the thousands of volts, in my experience...

<comment><USER14> Apparently the charge in computer power supplies can kill :/

[https://www.cnet.com/news/teen-electrocuted-while-working- on...](https://www.cnet.com/news/teen-electrocuted-while-working-on-unplugged- computer/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I ride a 48 year old Honda motorcycle. This baffles some people who didn't know a vehicle of that age could still be on the road.

It's not mint or original but it's nice. Everything works fine. The valves need to be adjusted soon. The transmission isn't silky but it shifts, probably a bent shift fork from abusive riding some time in the last 5 decades.

Everything about it is designed to be maintained by the average person. With a little mechanical knowledge and some patience anything on that bike can be fixed. It even comes with a tool kit.

There are a couple of repair shops in town that rent out spaces to work on bikes like this. They keep a mechanic on staff to provide help and even supply tools. I rent a garage from a friend and a few of us keep our old bikes going there.

Not all old things were built like this but this bike is a shining example of how well made things can last lifetimes.

<comment><USER16> I just got a 20 year old Land Rover and, after having attempted to repair consumer electronics and modern vehicles, I am stunned at how easy they are to repair.

Firstly, it is an entirely mechanical car, which makes everything much simpler. But the truly stunning bit is the documentation and community.

All of the workshop manuals are available online. That is good enough for most tasks, but if something particularly complex needs diagnosing, there are forums with all the information you need.

When you need to get parts, an exploded diagram of the entire car is available online with part numbers. Both the original manufacturer and several third parties still make parts. Somebody has even made a price comparison website.[0]

I wish all the things I owned worked like this. I understand the economics often don't work out for smaller, cheaper things, and there is no incentive for the original manufacturer to provide these things, but surely there is enough of a community to support common repairs in a similar way.

[0] [https://www.landroverworkshop.com](https://www.landroverworkshop.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> One major hurdle that I face regularly when something is broken is getting the tools I need to fix it. Buying tools that I may not need for another 5 years and won't likely be used anywhere else just does not make any sense to my mind even though replacing the device will be likelier more expensive. Also, there aren't guides to repair all devices/equipment online. If I open it, I am afraid I won't be able to put it back together. I love the idea of Repair cafe and would likely make a few visits if there is one nearby. (Any repair cafes in NYC?)

<comment><USER18> That's the thing I don't like about Apple products. I swapped the HDD for a SSD in my father's Mac Mini and had to order a kit with all the right special screwdrivers and special tools just for that.

<comment><USER19> Fixing is not their goal, and I'm OK with that. I really dislike Apple for a lot of reasons but their hardware is not one of them.

If you look at some of the breakdowns on ifixit, there might be an area where they needed 4 screws. In another laptop, they would have been identical screws, but in the Apple they are all different sizes. Each one is specific to the area it's holding so they could cram in more components. It may not be as easily repairable but it is good engineering.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've fixed 3 out of 4 dead 27" LCD monitors and 2 of 2 dead 47" TVs by opening them up, finding the power board, and replacing all of the large capacitors. No diagnosis or testing at all.

<comment><USER20> That used to be a good recipe for fixing radios back in the 1960s/70s as well! Used to just unsolder one lead and check the resistance of the capacitor. Quick kick then fall back to infinity good/swing over to low bad

<comment><USER21> >Quick kick then fall back to infinity good/swing over to low bad

What does all that mean?

Quick kick = apply some voltage?

So with a capacitor you are looking for infinite resistance (no current flow) as a sign that it's good, or some current flow (low resistance) as a sign it's bad? Did I get that right?

<comment><USER22> Not OP but yes that is correct, capacitors work by building potential. A functioning capacitor starts at 0 and moves to ∞.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> My fridge went out several years ago. It was one that we got when we bought our house from the previous homeowners. We made an agreement when we put in a bid. When it went out I was like man, we are going to have to pay to have this repaired. I called some companies and the estimations were in the $500-600 range. Being in a hard time I decided to just tinker, for the first time in my life. About 4 hours later of research and testing I determined I just needed a fuse. I went to a shop about 30 minutes away and bought a fuse for $5. Put it in and saved the fridge, and thank goodness for the dry ice tip that saved all my food in the freezer.

Tinkering is now my go-to for anything that breaks. I hope that it rubs off on my son as I think I missed out on life not knowing how to tinker as much as I should have. It is really refreshing to fix something that is important to you.

<comment><USER13> Yeah some repair companies will quote the maximum amount they may actually need to charge (replacing the compressor and regassing, for example), and then actually charge that even if they replaced a simple fuse :/

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> There is no such thing as 'throwaway culture' instead there is economics. In developed countries it simply is cheaper for the consumer to purchase a new LCD monitor than simply pay for a skilled engineer's labour which would arrive at the same price in addition to the uncertainty and time this takes.

In less economically developed countries, it is exactly the other way around, electronics are rarely being thrown away, in this case the repair engineer's time is significantly lower than the price of most western electronic products.

<comment><USER6> The economics you are describing create throwaway culture. The problem with this is that economics cannot override ecology.

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h > economics cannot override ecology

The annoyance is that economics should reflect ecology.

<comment><USER25> We have an environmental levy on electronics that supposedly covers the cost of recycling the product. However, I have never seen any reports on whether it truly covers the recycling cost or if it has improved landfill diversion.

<comment><USER26> "Recycling" electronics means shipping them to Africa where they're first dumped and then burned to recover some of the metals. The results are as disastrous as you would imagine, both for the environment and the people. This is what it looks like: [https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2014/feb/27/...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2014/feb/27/agbogbloshie- worlds-largest-e-waste-dump-in-pictures)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> In my experience, the main draw of repair cafes is not actually repairing things, but the social experience. The fact that things are repaired in the open, with drinks & snacks available creates a small community setting that is attractive for many people regardless of the actual purpose of the gathering.

<comment><USER28> Same thing with my local "buying vegetables from the producer" group. It's not working locally, short term or long term but it is a really good social playground with like-minded people.

Incidentally both attract the same kind.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> What if our intuition is wrong about the relative costs, both economical and environmental of some repairs? In particular, just because a small part of a larger whole is broken, doesn't mean repair is the more economical or environmentally friendly act.

To take a facetious example, suppose I broke 300 random pixels of a 1000x1000 LCD display that cost $100.

On visual rough intuition, it's seems clear that less than 1% of the screen is broken, it intuitively would seem absurd to toss the LCD screen versus fix it. But automated manufacturing technology is so good that it really doesn't cost a lot to make a totally new one.

On the other hand, your time is relatively valuable, as are some replacement parts. Suppose you spend 10 hours ordering parts, soldering wires, debugging, testing, etc to get it to fully functional. Why not spend a fraction of that time at work, and another fraction of time volunteering at park cleanups or buying carbon offsets?

The numbers above may be off in one way or another, and depends on the product, your pay, and belief of environmental impact of things like throwing stuff away vs volunteering / carbon offsets.

But one point seems clear to me -- which is that if I broke what visually seems like 10% of a $100 product, the fully-burdened real economic and environmental cost is a lot more than $10 to repair it. And the lynchpin is the automated production makes new stuff relatively cheap.

<comment><USER30> Clearly some things are not worth repairing, and there is a cost-benefit analysis to be done but there is just a staggering amount of stuff that is easily repairable that gets thrown away. TVs get thrown away that need a few dollars worth of power supply capacitors. Phones get thrown away over a $10 battery. Refrigerators get thrown away over a $20 thermocouple. Graphing calculators get thrown away because TI was too cheap to solder the battery contacts and the spring contacts get loose after a while.

I think these types of cases are far more common than people putting a ton of effort into something that isn't really worth repairing.

<comment><USER31> If there really is such lost value on this, then maybe a startup could capture it, by re-purchasing things, fixing them and reselling them.

But there is a reason why that is not such an easy business. Take for example startups that buy furniture when you move out and have to re-sell it: furniture is worn but usable, and it is very hard to sell at a profit after handling it.

Many times we can see a market "inefficiency" or lost opportunity value,but its not easy to make it real.

<comment><USER32> Why must such things be driven by start-ups and not simply culture?

<comment><USER33> I am going to guess that people secretly like when their gadget breaks because it gives them an excuse to buy something new.

<comment><USER34> Because billions upon billions is spent on reinforcing the idea that we should throw away something that's "out of fashion" and have a new thing, because new things make you feel great. You want to feel great, right? So throw away that old thing - get a new thing.

Being able to find a part to fix something makes me feel way better about myself than increasing the pile of junk being sent to be re-mined in some Chinese junk-yard.

<comment><USER33> Totally agree!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Those cafes are a great idea! I recently opened a high quality blender (forgot the brand) and found a cog made partially of metal with one small part made of plastic which will break first due to wear and tear. Otherwise this little motor would run forever.

Is it normal these days to put in breaking points to artificially shorten the life of appliances or does this have a purpose?

<comment><USER36> That little cog might be more like a fuse -- a part of the system that's relatively easily replaced and designed to fail first.

<comment><USER34> And so the company send a spare one in the box when you buy it, yes? Because they wouldn't be so crass as to make you hunt down a part that cost them a few pennies and disables the machine would they?

Same issue for me with food mixer, mostly metal, key part is plastic and gets stripped, can't be replaced. Same with bread maker, rubber belt decays and company don't make the part available.

<comment><USER37> Perhaps it was to protect the user, not the machine. If you drop a spoon in, it might break the fuse before pinging it into your face? Or it might have been a sliding contact that needed better wear performance than metal on metal, or it might have been an odd shape that was expensive to make from metal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> There is a great feeling from being able to fix your own stuff. I encourage everyone to learn. I have spent half of my life not being able to afford to buy new and as a result I learned to fix things.

One of my favorite fixes is the LCD TV in front of me. It came to me with a wide black bar down the screen. I skim read something about this on other TV's, opened the back up, looked for the board that had a ribbon cable to the screen as the bit that would need replacement. The board looked fine visually (no dry joints, burning or exploded caps). I wiggled the ribbon cable and the black bar disappeared! This was on Black Friday two years ago, so while everyone else bought new TV's I got one for free.

</comment><comment><USER39> The numbers on e-waste per region but adjusted for population (very rough, with rounding errors):

        Region       %    Pop   Adj
        </comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>---
        Oceania    0.7  0.038  18.4
        Europe    12.3  0.741  16.6
        Americas  11.3  1.001  11.3
        Asia      18.2  4.436   4.1
        Africa     2.2  1.216   1.8

Would have been more interesting with the Americas split too.

<comment><USER40> There's more detailed per-country E waste statistics in the "Global E-waste monitor 2017" report, see Annex 3 at the end [1].

Here's per-capita E-waste metrics for a subset of countries that might be interesting (because they produce high levels of per-capita E-waste, or have large populations, or both). I've added a median per-capita income column for reference, from Gallup [2].

        Country    E-waste   Median income
                   kg/inhab. kUSD/inhab.
        </comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>----
        Norway       28.5    19.3
        UK           24.9    12.4
        Denmark      24.8    18.3
        Netherlands  23.9    14.5
        Australia    23.6    15.0
        Germany      22.8    14.1
        France       21.3    12.4
        Belgium      21.2    10.2
        Austria      20.9    12.3
        Spain        20.1     7.3
        Canada       20.0    15.2
        US           19.4    15.5
        Japan        16.9    10.8
        S. Korea     13.1    11.4
        Russia        9.7     4.1
        Argentina     8.4     4.1
        Mexico        8.2     2.9
        Turkey        7.9     2.5
        Brazil        7.4     2.2
        Thailand      7.4     1.8
        S. Africa     5.7     1.2
        China         5.2     1.8
        Indonesia     4.9     0.5
        Philippines   2.8     0.5
        Pakistan      1.6     0.5
        India         1.5     0.6
        Vietnam       1.5     1.1
        Bangladesh    0.9     0.6

[1] - [https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Climate- Change/Documents/GEM%20...](https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Climate- Change/Documents/GEM%202017/Global-E-waste%20Monitor%202017%20.pdf)

[2] - [http://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median- househol...](http://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household- income-000.aspx)

Edit: as per the global E waste monitor report, there is a large amount of variability between countries in terms of the rate that e-waste is "collected" versus being disposed of by other methods e.g. in landfill. For example, Norway is at the top of the list in terms of mass of raw e-waste produced per inhabitant, but also has a high e-waste collection rate of 74% . In comparison, Australia only has an e-waste collection rate of 7.5% with the remainder going to landfill.

It'd be interesting to know how effective "collection" of waste is after it is produced versus prevention of that waste in the first place.

There's a bunch of interesting EU e-waste data here [3].

We can see in [4] that Norway's "recycling rate of e-waste", defined as the "collection rate" multiplied by the "reuse and recycling rate" is 50% . From the above table we know that Norway's collection rate is 74% so the "reuse and recycling rate" must be about 2/3 . But, the "reuse and recyling rate" is "calculated by dividing the weight of the WEEE that enters the recycling/preparing for re-use facility by the weight of total treatment of WEEE" \-- i.e. it doesn't appear to measure how _efficient_ the recycling and re-use itself is, in terms of output, it appears to just measures how much loss there is before we get to the recycling / reuse stage.

[3] - [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/key-waste- streams/wee...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/key-waste-streams/weee)

[4] - [http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1...](http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=t2020_rt130)

<comment><USER40> Re: efficiency of recycling, there's an interesting paper focusing on the efficiency of precious metals recovery during e-waste recycling:

Assessment of Precious Metal Flows During Preprocessing of Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment -- Chancerel, Meskers, Hagelüken, Rotter [1].

Here's my summary of the categorisation by mass of 1000 kg of input e-waste (ignoring the uncertainty quantification in the paper):

        Category             Mass (kg)
        </comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>
        Aluminium                 22.0
        Copper-rich              122.3
        Ferrous metals           331.7
        Non-Ferrous metals         4.3
        Other *                  146.4
        PCBs                      31.6
        Plastics                 264.8
        Precious-metals-rich      52.8
        Rubbish, filter dust      24.0
        Total                    999.9

(*) "Other" includes wood, hazardous materials, etc.

This paper focuses on the efficiency of the process in recovering precious metals, which would be of interest from an economic perspective to anyone operating the recycling and recover process:

> From the point of view of the process operators, the results of the test can > be qualified as "disappointing" because only about a quarter of the gold and > palladium and a tenth of the silver are sent to output fractions from which > precious metals will be directly recovered. Compared with the recovery rates > of major elements such as iron, aluminum, and copper, the recovery rates for > precious metals are very low. Most of the precious metals go to the most > mass‐relevant fractions (plastics and ferrous metals). These fractions have > relatively low concentrations of precious metals (24 g/t of gold and 8 g/t > of palladium in the plastics, 24 g/t of gold and 5 g/t of palladium in the > ferrous metals; [...] but the considerable mass of the outputs makes the > flows of precious metals very relevant.

There are of course other ways to measure the efficiency of a recycling process -- you could focus on energy efficiency, resource efficiency, pollution, etc.

[1] [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290...](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1530-9290.2009.00171.x)

</comment><comment><USER41> This is slightly off-topic, but I suspect the title attracts the right people and nobody else has been able to answer:

I came across an old PS/2 keyboard I'd really like to get working. I can best describe its symptoms as "it appears to be stuck in a boot loop." The LEDs go on for what could be the time it takes to run the self-test, then briefly go dark before it repeats. It does this indefinitely, as far as I can tell.

At first I thought it was an old capacitor across the power lines ( I assume as a low pass filter for unstable PS/2 power supplies) that had started leaking, causing it to brown out after some duration. However, replacing the cap did not appears to have changed nothing. I don't know what to do next and I have very little equipment to play with. Anyone have any ideas on where to turn to?

<comment><USER42> the cap across the power lines also provides a reservoir of power closer to the little microcontroller and other bits inside of the keyboard. an old keyboard might actually expect to be able to draw more power than a modern ps/2 port cares to provide, which would cause the microcontroller to reset at some point during its initialization process.

you could try to check that by putting a fast voltmeter across the power lines at the keyboard end and checking for drops.

you could also just try to fix it by replacing the cap with a higher capacitance one. maybe double or triple whatever capacitance is already in there. (can't go too high or the motherboard might think you've shorted the power line.)

might also check the resistance between power and ground in the keyboard (when it is disconnected, of course) and make sure that it hasn't developed any shorts or otherwise inappropriately low resistance between the power rails.

seeing how it behaves on different motherboards or some usb<->ps/2 converters might be informative, too.

in the unlikely event you're in the vicinity of boulder colorado, i'd be happy to look at it.

<comment><USER41> This seems somewhat likely and very interesting. No internal shorts, I have tested that thoroughly.

> you could also just try to fix it by replacing the cap with a higher > capacitance one. maybe double or triple whatever capacitance is already in > there.

Would, for testing purposes, two or three of the same capacitance in series do? I think the next step up I have on hand is like ten times the capacitance...

I'll see if I can find another motherboard with a PS/2 port. Unfortunately I'm located in Stockholm, Sweden, so no luck with Boulder. :(

<comment><USER42> > Would, for testing purposes, two or three of the same capacitance in series > do?

nope; put two of three of what you've got in there already in, in parallel, that's how you sum capacitance. (internally they're huge plates held apart from each just the tiniest little bit, with capacitance =~ surface area. more caps in parallel makes more surface area, so more capacitance).

if we were using ideal capacitors, nicwilson's suggestion would be be fine. non-ideal caps have ESR, though, which will burn up some of the power we want to feed into the microcontroller if/when it tries to draw too much. paralleling caps lowers the effective ESR of the lump of capacitors capacitor.

> I'll see if I can find another motherboard with a PS/2 port.

there are also actual ps/2 to usb converters available as well. (not the little dongles that came with keyboards; those were just for keyboards that knew both protocols and needed physical conversion.)

something like [https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Converter- Universal-10-4-10-...](https://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Converter- Universal-10-4-10-9-TU-PS2/dp/B0007T27HI/) is probably just smart enough to perform the conversion, but not smart enough to limit the power going to the keyboard, so i bet you can pull 500mA through it, a fair bit more than the 275mA guaranteed to ps/2 keyboards.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I absolutely do enjoy repair cafes, they "pop-up" in my town sometimes using a borrowed facility and folks just show up with tools and/or stuff they want fixed.

It is amazing, sometimes, how simple the repairs are. More often, however, repairs certainly are possible but parts, tools or information just isn't available during the very short time-span of the repair clinc. People end up getting turned away with a diagnosis of what's wrong but there's no practical way to repair it on the spot. I see these more as an affective exercise that shows people that, yes, it is possible to take stuff apart, figure out what's wrong and probably fix it.

For these things to be practical, they would have to be more permanent or regular and take-on additional services such as a tool-library (like a regular library except you check out power-tools instead of books).

But actually, if you look for it, there certainly is some serious repair- culture going on in SOME neighborhoods in the USA and in many other places in the world. Once you get away from big box stores, many independent hardware, appliance and electronics stores have people that regularly fix things. In the USA it might be frowned upon as ghetto or scammy (and sometimes they are), but many of you would be surprised what folks are able to do with basic equipment, a little knowledge, and some willpower.

</comment><comment><USER44> I get longer life out of things than most people. My Subaru is 18 years old and still going just fine. Unfortunately, its gas tank -- residing above both the power train and parts of the suspension, is otherwise intact but starting to leak at its horizontal seam. An open-ended, expensive job to replace -- you have to drop everything below it and its unclear how many of those suspension parts would have to be replaced due to age and deterioration.

I'd like to spray a fuel-tolerant liner into it. If I can find the product and someone -- or the tools -- to do it.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make: We are making _so damned much_ of this stuff. And I also think we may become "energy rich" as solar and other "next generation" power come online. In my opinion, as much of this stuff as possible should be made to be as fully recycle-able as possible. If it can be made a matter of just having enough energy, then melt it down wholesale and separate, ensuring that ensuing volatiles are stripped of their metals and then heated into component atoms or molecules we can collect or tolerate the release of.

We can't do it, yet. And certainly not at scale. But, especially with control of the inputs, maybe we are closer than we think.

Closed loop use would also mean less mining and destruction of the environment from production (as opposed to disposal).

Meantime, DRM and the like that artificially limits recycling? A pox. Counterbalanced against real needs for security, e.g. those replacement iPhone and Android screens that have spyware written into their firmware.

P.S. And are the last two concerns really in opposition to each other, or the same? If it's open and we can confirm what it is, then we can assess its security.

<comment><USER45> >I'd like to spray a fuel-tolerant liner into it. If I can find the product and someone -- or the tools -- to do it.

For a liner to work, you'd need to drop the tank anyway, as you need to thoroughly clean and strip the inside, then roll the tank around to evenly distribute the liquid liner. At that point, for cars, anyway, you're better off just replacing it. FWIW.

For smaller projects, like motorcycles, I have used Red Kote for years, with excellent success. It's the only single-part lining I've tried that holds up.

[http://damonq.com/red-kote.html](http://damonq.com/red-kote.html)

[edit] This is me cleaning out a rusty motorcycle tank with some chain, solvent, and an old Jeep: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEwIxWUJjU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNEwIxWUJjU)

The lining I installed afterwards is still holding up, 5 years later.

<comment><USER44> Thank you!

That Red Kote recommendation looks great for anyone with a smaller and/or more accessible (and/or new?) tank. Hopefully, some other HN readers will get use from it.

Note that they have both an internal liner coating and an external one with plastic fibre reinforcement.

I wonder whether, if one is installing a new tank, one or both linings are advisable -- stop future problems before they occur. Or whether the lifespans of the liners indicate not applying until they are needed.

It won't solve my particular situation, I guess -- that's more a matter of how much I might end up having to replace, in addition to the tank, due to corrosion of the undercarriage. The cost of the tank, I was ready for. But in talking to my mechanic (good guy I've known a long time), he's come to the realization that once he goes after the tank, it's hard to predict how many additional parts would have to be replaced because they'd prove impossible to reinstall in their current condition. The job can be done, but it might exceed what's worth putting into the car versus towards a replacement vehicle.

I was hoping to get another year or two out of it, at least, but I had no expectation of making it last forever. (I.e. this is not a restoration or similar.)

My problem seems to be just the seam. If I felt I could get a good enough application just right at the seam, I'd pursue that. But that looks to be an ill-advised approach.

That's a nice trick, in the YouTube video. I guess it proves, too, there's a way to work duck tape into any repair! ;-)

<comment><USER45> Happy to help!

There is no advantage to internally lining a new tank- you would eventually have to strip and reapply even the best liquid liner long before actual internal wear would have been an issue.

With so many gas blends using alcohol nowadays, internal rust (in vehicles that are regularly driven) isn't nearly the issue it used to be. Back when gas was just gas, water would collect and pool along the bottom of the tank, leading to rustouts. Nowadays, the alcohols in the fuels will suck up any stray moisture every time you refill.

That being said, alcohol/gas blend fuels don't store well, and alcohols will separate out over time, so you can't rely on this effect when thinking about vehicle storage. But for daily drivers, internal rust just isn't an issue any more.

The best thing you could do to promote longevity of a car gas tank is to give the exterior a thicker treatment (like the OverKote you mentioned) before installation.

Speaking of your particular use case, if you really just want to hack it for one or two more seasons, wire brush the worst of the rust off around the seam, then apply some permatex spray sealer.

[https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives- sealants/permate...](https://www.permatex.com/products/adhesives- sealants/permatex-spray-sealant-leak-repair/)

You will need several coats. It works much better if you do multiple thin ones that you let mostly dry between than if you glob on one or two thick ones. YMMV and all that, but if the seams are only weeping, and not so bad as to actively drip, this would probably do the trick for another year or so. Don't bother with RTV, even ones labeled as fuel/solvent resistant. Silicones in general just don't get along with gas very well, and the sealing properties would fail pretty quickly.

I'm glad you enjoyed that video. I was more proud of it that I really should be, and making actual use of duct tape was a part of it. :D

<comment><USER44> Thanks again!

I'll have the mechanic hoist it again and have a good look. For liability if nothing else, I'll probably have to find a lift I can borrow and do the job myself, but first I'll make sure the entire exterior of the seam is accessible while the tank is in place.

I never saw a drop (re drips) until just a month or two ago -- when I parked for a day over some fresh snow. So, it may be too late, now, but it's worth a shot. I also can put 8 gallons into an empty tank without the problem manifesting. If I can somewhat seal and protect the seam from the exterior, per your suggestion, I can also stick to partially filling the tank, most of the time.

The car only has about 135K on it, and the interior is pretty much spotless while the exterior has had only a couple of nascent rust spots that I've actively kept under control. Until this winter; I had to switch detailers and the new one seemed to create paint chips rather than mitigating them. I used to do most of this work myself, but health has had me seeking help.

Anyway, it really seems worth getting the extra year or two out of it, if I can.

As for the alcohol blend fuels, I was aware that they help significantly in keeping the tank "dry". It's been my understanding that they may also contribute to the lower instances of "vapor lock" that we see, these days. At least, at my mild altitude and (mostly) non-extreme environment.

Applying an exterior coat does sound like an interesting idea. One concern I would have, is whether if and as it deteriorated, it might trap moisture and corrosives next to the tank, turning from protectant to trap and accelerant.

I used to rinse my undercarriage extensively each spring, after the last of the salt was washed off the roads by rain. The last some years -- again, health -- I've gotten... well, I guess I could be self-deprecating and call it lazy. That may have made things worse, but 18 years of Chicagoland winters doubtless bear the bulk of the responsibility, regardless of such mitigation efforts. And I didn't have this car for the first 10 or so years of its life; the damage was already well underway.

<comment><USER45> >Applying an exterior coat does sound like an interesting idea. One concern I would have, is whether if and as it deteriorated, it might trap moisture and corrosives next to the tank, turning from protectant to trap and accelerant.

This is a real concern, and one of the big problems with conformal coatings. The short of it is that when coating ferrous materials, you need to make sure as much rust as possible is removed before coating. (As rust forms, it takes up a greater volume that the iron is forms from. This results in pressure that will lift coatings, and allow water to seep underneath, accelerating wear.)

Just to repeat, in your case, wire brush + the spray will probably net you another year or two, which is about what you could hope for with a tank that has already had seeping issues anyway. So I agree with your assessment of borrowing some rack time and giving it a shot. It is an inexpensive way to eek out a little more use of what you've got.

>As for the alcohol blend fuels, I was aware that they help significantly in keeping the tank "dry". It's been my understanding that they may also contribute to the lower instances of "vapor lock" that we see, these days. At least, at my mild altitude and (mostly) non-extreme environment.

Vapor lock used to be an issue when fuel pumps were located in the engine bay, powered off a rotating cam that ran a diaphragm pump from the gas tank to the carburetor. The pump would be pulling from the tank to the front of the car, then pushing from the pump a few feet up to the carb. Sometimes, in hot environments, the suction of the pump + heat of the engine bay would result in the fuel boiling inside the feed line before it reached the fuel pump itself, rendering it unable to pump any fuel at all until the system had cooled enough for the fuel to condense back to a liquid. Thus the term 'vapor lock'.

Nowadays, everything uses fuel injection and high pressure lines, with the pump located in the gas tank itself. There isn't any low-pressure part of the system that would allow vapor lock to happen any more, so it ceased to be an issue. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> We have some repair cafe events about every one or two months in Silicon Valley.

Here's one such organization that holds them on a quarterly basis, for anyone interested:

[http://www.repaircafe-paloalto.org](http://www.repaircafe-paloalto.org)

</comment><comment><USER46> Buy less stuff but nicer stuff. And fixing them instead of throwing them away if they're broken. If you can't fix it you never owned it.

<comment><USER47> Exclusions apply. Garage door opening mechanisisms, pull chords for starting petrol powered tools, window blind slats, really old plumbing that is cast iron or lead. I'm sure there are more but I won't be touching those things again.

<comment><USER48> Garage doors in general are a pain. I have installed and repaired a few and that is one thing that I pay someone else to do now.

I don't find it fun to tinker with a garage door at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Although straightforward, I'm still proud of how I replaced the "un- replaceable" battery of my 4-year old Nexus 5 (still in mint condition). /me even made an opening pry "tool" by cutting an eraser holder into two[+], which worked perfectly well. (Still have to install Lineage OS, though, as Google stopped security updates.)

[+] [https://kashyapc.fedorapeople.org/Eraser-holder-turned- openi...](https://kashyapc.fedorapeople.org/Eraser-holder-turned-opening- pry.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER50> I'd love to see more products that reduce e-waste by:

1\. being upgradable without needing to replace. I hate it whenever new generation of Intel CPUs are introduced, because it usually means I have to upgrade the motherboard when I upgrade the CPU. I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of performance for upgradability and for being future-proof (for at least 5 years).

2\. using standardized parts instead of proprietary parts - for example, ATX power supplies are pretty much standard, so one can easily exchange one for another (as long as one meets the power requirements)

3\. Reducing the usage of plastics. I've even made a PC case out of cardboard box many years ago when I didn't have a lot of money. I remember seeing few cardboard-based PC cases that were sold commercially but they were more of a novelty.

4\. making computers that are easily repairable - laptops like IBM Thinkpad make it easy to replace parts like RAM, HDD, as well as internal parts like screen, keyboard, etc...

5\. Choosing quality over quantity (i.e. lower price or cheaply made products).

6\. Mandating a longer hardware manufacturer's warranty. Typically it's usually 1 year but I'd love to see 3 to 5 year warranty. I wouldn't mind it, even if it were to increase the price of PC components a little higher. But the long term benefit is that manufacturer will also try to create higher quality products.

7\. Using and creating software that works well with older hardware. This is one of my biggest frustration, especially on the phone. Software is often slow and bloated. On Windows, Windows 2000 was the best OS, at least in consideration of performance. I also miss Snow Leopard on Mac.

</comment><comment><USER51> On this topic, today (3/17) is a world create day via hackaday [https://hackaday.com/2018/03/15/get-together-and-hack- this-s...](https://hackaday.com/2018/03/15/get-together-and-hack-this- saturday-at-world-create-day/)

Not exactly, the same thing, but definitely brings together like minded people

</comment><comment><USER52> While I imagine most people won't care enough to repair their objects, maybe there could be room for a business that would offer money for objects one would otherwise throw away, and then re-sell them to those who don't mind second-hand items? Maybe it's just me, but I think more people would be more incentivized with cold, hard cash.

<comment><USER53> Thrift stores, junk stores, surpluses, record shops, used book stores, many video game stores and (to an extent) pawn shops work on that model.

<comment><USER54> Not to mention eBay and the various other online markets.

<comment><USER52> While this is true, I think eBay is very labor-intensive both on the side of listing goods and having to continuously bid on them, and I'm unsure of the size of people who buy electronics in need of repair and then resell; it would involve at least two shipping periods for a relatively small gain, not to mention the time investment and being unsure if the item is repairable, having not seen it in person.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The amount of things people/companies just throw away in the UK (and I reckon the rest of the world) is insane. Working for a e-waste company, I've seen everything from (perfectly working) curved 3D TVs, to hundreds of normal LED TVs, hundreds of ex-corporate laptops (mint condition, can't resell, must scrap) and of course, thousands of smartphones, tablets and home appliances, most of which were still in perfect working condition. That's all in _a month 's time across the poorer half_ of the UK! I will never understand this insane consumerism.

</comment><comment><USER55> There is merit in having the mindset to be able to repair things. It encourages one to at least attempt at fixing something that is broken before throwing it away. Also, if done by enough people, manufacturers will see the benefit of making their products repairable.

Sometime in the future, we will look back at how it was impossible to repair things, and wonder what made manufacturers think that throwing away was the right choice.

</comment><comment><USER56> Bad charging ports drive me bananas!! Ports should be designed to outlast all other components! It seems like the most fragile part of half of electronics.

I have had micro USB ports crap out on me on several different products. The low tech solution - high purity rubbing alcohol to clean and and tweezers to remove debris and move the prongs back in place did the trick all but once.

</comment><comment><USER57> I'm reminded of Matthew Crawford's Shop Class as Soulcraft. We have lost the ability, and sometimes the right when it comes to John Deere or Mercedes, to tinker on our own things. This is exciting news and maybe the next generation won't be so willing to just throw away a piece of crap and buy a new piece of crap.

</comment><comment><USER58> Laptops and batteries are the mind blowing settings nowdays. A laptop is virtually unusable in about 5 years because the battery is effectively worthless. Buying a new one is expensive, ish. But way cheaper than a new laptop. And typically gets my laptop back to full operations quickly enough.

<comment><USER59> Swapping in a new battery and replacing the CD drive with an SSD gave my laptop a new lease on life.

<comment><USER58> I don't know how to explain this to everyone. It is funny, because it is similar to cars. Folks take the first major expense necessary to maintain something, compare it to a payment for a new thing, and somehow think that justifies a new purchase.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> Cubans were forced to become acquainted with DIY repair due to embargos. This video shows some interesting perspectives on that: [https://youtu.be/v-XS4aueDUg?t=3m49s](https://youtu.be/v-XS4aueDUg?t=3m49s)

I think DIY repair is always a good skill to have.

</comment><comment><USER61> Repair cafés seem like a wonderful idea. However, does anyone of places where one could learn some basic stuff to repair electronics etc? I dont want to hurt myself or blow the fuse in my apartment

</comment><comment><USER62> My anecdotal story is a smartphone that I poured beer over and volume/onoff buttons stopped working. Replacement buttons costed me $7 on eBay including shipping.

</comment><comment><USER33> I'd love the right or even ability to to repair my Western Digital hard drives when they fail just days outside of warranty.

</comment><comment> Whack-kneed Imagine a marketplace where manufacturers had a duty to fairly disclose their longevity specs to the end user.

<comment><USER63> Don't all products have the MTBF published as part of it's spec sheet (not to be confused with the marketing specs)?

edit: never mind, I couldn't find the MTBF for my watch after some search.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Would you please not glorify war in this way? This isn't war, it is work - pushing against cultural norms and entropy.

</comment><comment><USER65> that is awesome, now can you fix my laptop & old storage stuff .... i have so many files that need to be recovered on them...

<comment><USER66> Rmoving your notebook HDD and retrieving the files with a SATA-USB adapter connect to a 2nd device should be fairly straightforward for most models. Not a fix though.

<comment><USER65> i have a laptop, toshiba working... but my other laptop is broke & wouldnt turn on. I also have old storage devices that have files on it & it will not give me anything. most of the op sys were orginal windows to xp. this laptop has win10

<comment><USER67> look up the model on youtube, there is a huge chance you will have a video tutorial on how to repair it.

<comment><USER65> where do you live??? haha, can you come over & fix it??? lol (kidding)

<comment><USER65> Hello, again ;) I figure out what you were telling me to do on the data recovery on laptop or desk top drives. I am now needing some advise on how to unformat old storage (seagate) devices? I also have a iomega small storage device that locks up when i try to extract files i put on it, the power & usb cord for it doesnt seem to work.

<comment><USER65> ok, ill utube...

<comment><USER65> i looked on youtube, there are lots of ways & applications to use to un-format external storage devices... please can i get a free app that will help me out, as i don't know which one to use. thanks much

<comment><USER65> I downloaded EaseUS Data Recovery Wizard app but they wanted me to pay, it wasnt free. do you know of an app that is totally free? the 185gig were found then I could get them to recover</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>