text:
Since there is another false revival currently going on, this time in Kansas City at Mike Bickle's International House of Prayer (IHOP), I thought it would be a good time to post this video as a sober reminder.
77 thoughts on "False Revival"
James Jones
Wow, I hope many watch this that are into the signs and wonders and manifestations that are going on, but it still seems people will justify there experiences. I've heard it said that some people are under the influence of a demon, but others it's the Lord.
And that all true revivals have a mix, Satan always try's to slip in. Hog Wash
What accord has Christ with Belial? The only one in that type of atmosphere that would be of the Lord is the one that wants to get out of that lunacy as quickly as possible.
Mr PSb
I'm in fully agreement with Chrystal, TRUTH + ERROR = MORE ERROR.
Many people try to blame the Devil for contaminating these "revivals" when they were never were of God in the first place. If the people involved do not know or understand the Gospel or historic Christian doctrine, what else can we expect? Biblical ignorance is one of the reasons why there were events like Lakeland, Brownsville, The Toronto Blessing and more recently IHOP.
Bud Press
Since Christians can be deceived by thoughts, emotions, and feelings (heart), the best course to take is to trust in and follow what God has already said in His written word:
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and turn away from evil" (Proverbs 3:5-7).
And, since Christians aren't immune to sin and being deceived, please remember what God instructed Jeremiah to write about our hearts:
"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the results of his deeds" (Jeremiah 17:9-10).
Therefore, Christians are to test and examine themselves on a daily basis (2 Corinthians 13:5), and trust in God's written word first and foremost–over and above what modern-day teachers say and write (see also 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22).
Bud Press
Mr PSb
This video presents one of the many reasons why I left the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movement. The 1906 Azusa Street Revival surely wasn't from God. This is just Montanism on steroids, very timely video.
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Daniel Glover
I was at the onething conference got back last night. What I can tell u is that God spke to me and my friend that God is going to heal my sister of spina bifida. I have been a missionary with YWAM now for 3 yrs and I can tell u that IHOP is not a cult. They keep Jesus at the very center of everyhing they do. I watched as I and many others got healed from different strongholds. 2Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29″Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30″He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33″Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. 36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12 22-37. So I can say I was freeed from some sins of my past and different ways of thinking. So this entire ministry is either from God or satan. Why would satan cast out demons. Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. I personally watched as demons were cast out and people were freeed from demonic oppression. We as christians are called to be free from sin. If the son has set you free you are free indeed. I do believe that God is at work in this and there is going to be massive revival around the worls. As a missionary I have seen people healed in the name of Jesus from different things before. This is not a cult it is real.
Daniel Glover
sorry I just realized this wasn't in paragraph structure. I appoligize if it is hard to read
Daniel Glover
I would like to ask what is Bickle's theology? What is it that makes IHOP a cult? The power of God moving? I would like to ask u how u can explain how my sister is in the process of being completely healed from spina Bifida? God spoke to us saying he is going to heal her we laid hands on her and she is being healed. Is this satan? Does satan want to heal her and essentially bring redemption bring my family to redemption. God has told us we needed to deal with a few personal sins against each other. If this is satan why would satan want us to forgive each other and heal my sisters body? I honestly don't understand what is here that people aren't loving. What is it about him ? Is it money? What is it that is un scriptual?
Mr PSb
Again, Chrystal is on point. Now observe the following:
Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. – Matthew 24:23-25
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. – 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Not everything that is seemingly "good" is from God.
Bud Press
Daniel Glover:
In one post you wrote that "I was at the onething conference got back last night. What I can tell u is that God spke to me and my friend that God is going to heal my sister of spina bifida."
In another post you wrote that "I would like to ask u how u can explain how my sister is in the process of being completely healed from spina Bifida? God spoke to us saying he is going to heal her we laid hands on her and she is being healed."
I am sorry to hear that your sister has spina bifida, but what if your sister isn't healed? As such, could it mean you are being deceived by a false god?
Bud Press
Daniel Glover
ok I don't know anything about that woman Julie Myers. She wasn't singing there or anything. One thing I do know is the leaders they do have like misty Edwards for example is very christ centered. She is just a genuine woman of Christ. Maybe they shouldn't allow her to be there but then again I don't know exactly what the context of what she said was about.
As far as my sister goes she is being healed. Sometimes God takes a few days to totally heal people. Like in the case of my family. My dad's arthritis is in the process of being healed as well as my sister. I totally believe it was God who spoke to me and not a false god. It is consistent within the very character of who God is. A loving father and a healer. There isn't anything in IHOP that I consider cult like. I actually live in Chicago. I have been to the IHOP Chicago before. We also visited the KC base as well. I do believe that God is raising up a generation of worshipers. King David had people where all they did was worship and interceed as well. I believe that glorifies God and if it glorifies God then it's good for me.
James Jones
Hi Daniel
It will be really hard to convince you that what you have embraced is contradictory to scripture, same as it would be to convince someone that Catholicism is wrong if you were healed after the appearance of the virgin Mary.
These people who are warning you are not unfamiliar with what you are experiencing, there not from some fundamentalist conservative right wing of Christianity who would never venture into a Spirit filled church. These people have been there and done that. We have all experienced most of what you are proclaiming. I too have seen people who were healed one who was healed of Lupus, an actual healing, but it was replaced by other malady's it's a trade off. Your convinced this is of God, Satan is doing his work quite well. Matt. 24:23-24 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ! Or 'There do not believe it, For false Christ's and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible even the elect.
You cannot support a world wide great end time revival any where in scripture you can search all your life and you cannot do it, what you will find if your willing to have the Holy Spirit lead you is there will be a great falling away, few are those who find the narrow gate, many will say Lord, Lord, and will hear Him say go away I never new you.
And the coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, be cause they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You have been a missionary for three years and you don't know this? Your convinced that the very signs that Jesus said would take place to deceive if possible the very elect are not the signs that Jesus spoke about. Then what was He talking about? How bad do they have to get for someone to say that is not God? And if it gets so obvious then how could it be that the very elect would be in danger of being fooled? You need to go on a sabbatical with no teaching tapes or books just the Bible and humble yourself before the Lord and ask Him to lead you in all truth. Be careful or you will find your self an enemy of the cross as your leadership is. And all your good works and good attention's will mean nothing because you will find that you are one of the deceived because you did not love the truth enough to follow it. This is a tough word, but you need it you are in the mission field leading others to a different Jesus, and different spirit, a different Gospel if you have embraced IHOP and there gospel.
James Jones
Bud Press
Daniel Glover:
You wrote in part that "As far as my sister goes she is being healed. Sometimes God takes a few days to totally heal people. Like in the case of my family. My dad's arthritis is in the process of being healed as well as my sister. I totally believe it was God who spoke to me and not a false god. It is consistent within the very character of who God is. A loving father and a healer."
When we talk about God and spiritual things, we have at least two options to consider: 1. How we view things. 2. What God says in His written word.
Years ago, a man claimed to have the gift of healing. People flocked to his crusades and paraded themselves, family, and friends on stage to be healed of all forms of illnesses. "Come and claim your healing!" the man would shout, and the people would jump for joy.
When the crusade ended, people returned home–only to find that they weren't healed. In fact, some of the people stopped taking medicine and treatment, then died as a result of viewing themselves as being healed.
People dying after being told they were healed caused a tremendous controversy for the man. When he was faced with serious questions and asked why the people weren't healed, the man protected himself, betrayed the people, and said things like, "Sometimes, the healing is gradual and can take a period of time," or "It was their lack of faith," or "They didn't give enough money."
And to this day, the sick and dying flock to the man, and leave his "healing" crusades sick and dying.
Remember the two options above? People who attend the man's crusades "view" him as having the gift of healing. Why? Because the man says he does. Had they studied what God says in His written word–and trusted in it over and above what the man said–they would have known the man is a liar and a false healer. They would have saved themselves a lot of grief and money.
Daniel, again, you wrote that "Sometimes God takes a few days to totally heal people." Had you studied and trusted in God's written word, you would know that when Jesus Christ healed the crippled and lame 2,000 years ago, they didn't need assistance, or limp around, and struggle to maintain balance–after their healing. When the Apostles used their gift of healing through the power of God, there were no excuses, no gimmicks, and no deception. The crippled and lame were immediately healed and made whole.
Therefore, when Jesus was in the midst of the sick and dying, He didn't tell them "Sometimes God takes a few days to totally heal people." Had He done that He would have been exposed as a liar and labeled a fraud–just like ALL of the modern-day faith healers.
Finally, Daniel, which option will you take? Your view, or what God says in His written word? I pray you will stop listening to the false teachers in your midst and pay close attention to what God says in His word.
Bud Press
David T
Daniel ~
If you can, look up a sermon by Phil Johnson that he did on Charismatics. I listened to it just yesterday. All the stuff he spoke about are reasons why I stopped watching/listening to the likes of Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, John Hagee, and more.
You might be able to find it at http://www.sermonaudio.com
David T
It's called "Combating Charismatic Theology". And you can actually find it @ http://www.thegracelifepulpit.com
I say it before, and I sad it again.This video is beyound sicking.
Daniel Glover
Hey I thought I would copy and paste the beliefs and denys of IHOP for you guys so you can know exactly what the believe and don't believe. Affirmations and Denials
The Manifest Sons of God Theology
We Affirm all born-again believers will be "manifest" as sons of God after the second coming of Christ.
We Deny that we will experience the fullness of our inheritance as sons of God before Jesus returns.
Explanation: Some uphold the false teaching that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection.
The Latter Rain
We Affirm that the Church will experience the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in history before Jesus returns (Joel 2:28–32). This outpouring will result in a great ingathering of souls and a renewing of the Church so that it walks in godliness as declared in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:1–7:28). We affirm the presence of the fivefold ministry for the equipping of the saints (Eph. 4:11–13).
We Deny the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.
Explanation: Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. At no time in the past did we have any relationship with this movement.
Dominion Theology
We Affirm that God's purpose is for Jesus to come back to fully establish His kingdom rule over all the earth. After the second coming, the saints will rule the earth under the leadership of Jesus Christ when He sets up His government on earth in the millennial kingdom (1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 5:10; 20:3–6). We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation. We do not have the assurance that all laws and governments will be changed until after the second coming of Jesus to establish His millennial kingdom.
We Deny that the Church will take over all the governments of the earth before the return of Christ.
Explanation: Some believe and teach that all governments on earth will be transformed by the Church before the second coming of Jesus.
Joel's Army
We Affirm that the army in Joel 2:1–11 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment in that it also points to the Antichrist's army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:12–17.
We Deny that Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time Church.
Explanation: The term "Joel's army" has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:12–17. The term has been used much like "Joseph Company," "Gideon Band," or "David Company" to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting, and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a "Joel's army in training," referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:12–17. When used like this, "Joel's army" does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:1–11, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:12–17 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title "Joel's army" to both the destroying army (Joel 2:1–11) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:12–17).
The Use of Prophecy
We Affirm that the Bible is the inerrant and sole objective source of direction and wisdom for the life of a believer. We believe in the operation of the prophetic ministry as a source of edification, exhortation, and comfort from the Lord (1 Cor. 14:3). We believe that the subjectivity of the prophetic ministry must be vigorously tested against the inspired and infallible Scriptures that God gave for doctrine, reproof, correction, and for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16).
We Deny that subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.
Explanation: Simple prophecy is limited to edification, exhortation, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3). It is to enrich our spiritual life, rather than give direction in the domestic areas of our life. Edification speaks of spiritually building or edifying someone's spirit by confirming their destiny or God's purpose for their life. The most common way to edify through simple prophecy is to give a Scripture that has been previously important to them. Exhortation includes calling people to persevere and not give up on their promises to God in hard times, and not give in to sin. Comfort speaks of making known God's perspective in a great disappointment or setback in a person's life by giving God's perspective in telling them that God has a plan in their time of pressure.
We urge people to avoid giving others prophetic direction in the domestic areas of their life. This includes issues related to spousal designation, bearing children, changing jobs, moving, buying or selling (i.e. house), or leaving one church for another, etc. We may give godly counsel to one another in domestic areas without presenting it as a prophecy. Personal prophecies should be given with others as witnesses (we request that prophecies be recorded when possible). Some people have an over-reliance on dreams for direction in their domestic lives. God never intended to direct people mostly by dreams. Yes, God does use dreams to give some direction; however, dreams are not to be a substitute for gaining wisdom from Scripture. Some people rely on dreams for decisions because it absolves them from responsibility and lacking wisdom if the decision turns out to be wrong (Eccl. 5:3, 7).
The Tabernacle of David
We Affirm that the Holy Spirit is orchestrating a global worship and prayer movement that will operate in great authority (Lk. 18:7–8; Mt. 21:13; Rev. 5:8, 8:3–5, 22:17; Isaiah 62:6–7; Joel 2:12–17, 32). This prayer movement will operate in the spirit of the tabernacle of David.
We Deny that the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.
Explanation: In the days of King David, he established a tabernacle that had singers and musicians who ministered to the Lord night and day. Today, the prayer movement is in the spirit of David's tabernacle. This means that the prayer movement will have some components of the tabernacle of David, specifically pertaining to singers and musicians.
The promise of the restoration of the tabernacle of David refers to the governmental restoration of David's international rule as part of the restoration of national Israel in the millennial kingdom.
The context of Amos 9:11–12 is the governmental rule of Jesus over all the nations from Jerusalem. In Acts 15:13–18, James referred to Amos 9:11 declaring that Gentiles should be accepted into the predominantly Jewish Body of Christ, without needing to convert to Judaism. The apostles understood that in the end times, God would re-establish the Messianic kingdom over all the nations. God had just visited the Gentiles with salvation at Cornelius's house (Acts 10). This was in agreement with Old Testament prophecy. James quoted Amos to prove that many Gentiles will be saved in the context of the restoration of the Davidic dynastic reign. This restoration will, of course, include David's heart for worship and prayer. Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus' worldwide rule over the nations. The prophetic word given to Mike Bickle in May 1983 was that "God would release 24-hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David." In other words, it would involve prophetic singers and musicians. The practice of worship and intercession is not, in itself, the actual restoration of David's tabernacle.
Daniel Glover
To me I would like to ask the question of what everyone's perspective of the character of God is? I look at the God of the bible as a redemptive God. Someone who would want to give his creation another chance of redemption. I look at him as being loving and wants his creation to be there with him. I fully admIt I don't know enough about the bible myself ro really know and be able to refute if this is false or real. While I was at onething though God made me realize I don't know enough about the bible. I have made a commitment with God himself to fast and really read my bible more this year. I don't say this because I want any kind of recognition or whatever just that God was speaking to me through this. For me I feel I GOT CLOSER to God through this. I k now for a fact that my friends did as well. I do not nor will I ever regret going because God used this for his glory. Even if it is fake.
Daniel,You base your relationship with God on an 'emotional experience'. This is typical of charismatics. However, this is not what the Bible teaches. We worship and serve a God who reveals Himself SOLELY through His word, not an emotion.
You also say you give God glory, even if it is fake. This is a very confusing statement. How is God glorified if He wasn't in what you were involved in? The answer is…He isn't.
I do pray for you Daniel; may God be gracious to you and reveal truth as it is written in His word. Seek His truth as one seeks silver and treasures. Please, do not rely on experiences, emotions, and hype to meet your needs. We are drawn to Christ and learn to trust Him by going through the afflictions and trials He sends…this is quite a different message than what most Charismatics, WOF, Propsperity, Faith healers teach. BUT, this is the message found in His word.
May He bless you richly
David Michael McNelley
To be honest,
It sounds like you guys just discounted what Daniel just posted from IHOP's on website, and his comments on scripture out of hand. I have been to seminary, and have handled the Scripture extensively, and I have to say the following:
1) IHOP has made these affirmations and denials abundantly clear, that they do not view prophecy as of a higher authority than Scripture, they do not hold to LR teachings, MSOG, or JA, despite your affirmations to the contrary
2) Daniel nowhere said he based his relationship with G-d solely on an experience. Neither he nor the rest of the YWAM-ers I know would ever do that. They are biblically based.
3) Relationships are in part experiences. The uniqueness of a relationship with Christ, is that our experiences (which are valid) come to confirm what the Word already says. That is, He communicates and applies the Word by way of encounters with Himself. Moreover, no one from IHOP that I know of has ever said, the "Christ is over here," or, "look, there he is." Nor have they said, :"I am the Christ." Before you pull a scripture out to attack a particular position, be sure you are not eisegeting or misapplying the Scripture, because some of the Scriptures you pull are done with hasty and stupid application and do not apply very well to Dainel's situation.
4) Consider that Daniel is a follower of Christ, and saved every bit as much as you are, and has the same Holy Spirit as each of you. John 10 says, "my sheep hear my voice." Having been trained by YWAM and having been trained as a believer from the time he was saved, I would hazard to say Daniel is familiar with the voice of G-d and is smart enough and experienced enough as a believer to be able to discern for himself whose voice is speaking. The fact is, especially since you have been refuted soundly by IHOP's own website on Latter Rain theology and teachings with appropriate scripture references, leads me to believe you are either not listening to and celebrating with Daniel on this subject as you should, in the manner of healing, since G-d still can and does heal, or the possibility of divine healing and encounters with G-d offends you.
Either way, Daniel, nice comments, and this video, I must say is over done. Comparitive religions is about the hokiest tack of attack on something that, if it is yielding healing and advancement of the Kingdom, spells judgment for any who would attack what G-d is doing. Bottom line, I would side with Gameliel on this one, and urge caution, lest you find yourself fighting the L-rd. Blessings all, and Daniel, hang in there. I know you understand more than you are able to verbalize here. You YWAMers are a real evangelistic inspiration. Many of these people just do not understand.
I can be reached at
the Communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all
" David Michael McNelley
I would side with Gameliel on this one, and urge caution, lest you find yourself fighting the L-rd"
The problem with that is that you side with a non-Christian Pharisee. The Pharisee's were an enemy to the Cross.
Gal5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The manifestations of these meetings resemble more of the works of the flesh than the fruits of the Spirit.
Daniel Glover
David Michael McNelley Thank you for your words here. As u and I are pretty much the only ones in here not bashing them. Anyway I don't remember who said this . Someone earlier said in an earlier post that healings don't happen anymore in our day. I would like biblical references for this belief. Last time I checked after Jesus asscended back into heaven and gave us the holy spirit he gave us the power to cast out demons lay hands on each other and pray for healing etc. I do not wish a life of non suffering as far as christianity which was posted by I believe Bud . I would not be training to do missions if this was the case. I would have gone and gotten "a real job" if this were true. I am doing what I believe God is calling me to do. Each person I believe experiences God in our own unique ways. As long as this way is based upon what Christ has already done for us. I most likely will not see God in the same light as you and you me. We were all created uniquely. As for emotions I believe the experiences we have are all very important. God teaches me different things in my own life through different experiences.
I honestly don't believe that for me personally just reading the bible I would be able to totally understand how much God loves me. He will send people my way to send me messages and confirm it to me. Or maybe in the case of when we were coming home God telling us to drive off the rd so we did and he wanted to show how much God loves her by having us drive to this rd and there was cows on 1 side and horses on the other side. 10 minutes earlier she said how much she loves both of those. It has always been her dream to live on a farm. We believe God sent us there to just to tell her he loves her. She has been questioning it lately. Does this moment make it any less spiritual because it was not in the bible? Life is full of moments of God trying to show us the love for us. The question we need to ask is if we are going to shut ourselves down to the experiences? I love God and I want to serve him with the best of my ability sometimes I just need to be reminded of it.
Here is what was actually said by me concerning the 'gift' of healing…'The gift of healing ceased with the apostolic ministry; if God so desires to heal, He will…but, no one has this gift in the current age we live in'.
I NEVER said God doesn't heal, I said man doesn't possess this gift….BIG difference.
As a matter of fact, the most miraculous healing is that of the soul…God reaching down, in His grace, and saving a dead-in-sin sinner from what he/she deserves.
This is what happens when people take something out of context, misquoting someone can lead to false accusations and much confusion. The same can be said for reading God's word.
I don't 'experience' God, I worship and serve Him according to how He is revealed in His word. I find no biblical evidence stating we must 'experience' God. The Charismatics place emphasis on emotional experiences, which goes outside of what the Bible teaches.
How does God show His love? "For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." Heb. 12;6 "Chasten"-meaning 'to chastise or castigate with words, to correct, to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities, to chastise with blows, to scourge, such as of a father punishing his son'.
This statement -'I honestly don't believe that for me personally just reading the bible I would be able to totally understand how much God loves me'.- says it all. If God's word isn't sufficient, then you open yourself up for many dangers by looking elsewhere for fulfilllment. This is what leads one into deception, apostasy, and cults. There is so much packed in this verse, 'God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24
Daniel Glover
Cindy, just wanted to say that was very well put there. I am not saying if this is or isn't nesc a good or a bad thing. It's just that I encountered God during the ONE THING CONFERENCE. I did honestly question if there was too much of show here. However I figured this is all between God and everyone there. I feel I experienced God in a powerful way. To me this is what matters. I try sometimes fail sometimes succeed to find God in every situation.
There's a great sermon on the subject of healing by John MacArthur, here's a sample…
'Everywhere you go people are asking questions about this, from all sides comes confusion, questions, contradictions. Now as we study the Scripture, we find there are three categories of spiritual gifts, if we want to call them that. First would be the category we could say are gifted men like apostles, prophets, evangelists, teaching pastors. These are the men themselves given as gifts from Christ to the church. Then we could say there are the permanent edifying gifts and the temporary sign gifts, the other two categories. Permanent edifying gifts would be gifts related to knowledge, and wisdom, and preaching, and teaching, and exhortation, and faith, and discernment, and showing mercy, and giving, and administration, and helps, and those things that have an ongoing ministry in the church.
Then there are those temporary sign gifts, in other words, divine enablements given by the Holy Spirit for a temporary period of time as a sign for a very special purpose. These are listed for us in Scripture; they are miracles, healings, tongues, or languages, and the interpretation or translation of those languages.
Now we have noted in our study that such sign gifts had a unique purpose. Very simple, they were to identify the authentic spokesman for God. First of all, Jesus did miracles, Jesus cast out demons. He did miracles that fall into three categories. Miracles of physical healing, miracles of demonic deliverance, and miracles of natural phenomena, like walking on water, or stilling the sea, feeding people by multiplying bread and fish, and those miracles were to demonstrate to people that Jesus was not a mere man, but that He was the Messiah of God. It should be very clear to everyone who saw Him that this was not a man, because no man could do what He did.
So Christ had unique capability to do supernatural things in order to draw attention to the fact that He was unique. In fact, you need to remember that up until the time of Jesus Christ, there was nobody who could just go around healing people. There were some healings in the Old Testament, and there were some miracles of nature, and there were some powerful exhibitions of God's supernatural work in creation, and the flood, and many other supernatural powerful things, but as far as a miracle, which is a subcategory of the supernatural.
Sometimes people say, "Well, you people always say there are only three eras of miracles," and that would be the time of Moses, and then Elijah and Elisha, and then Christ and the Apostles, and those are the only three periods of miracles. Then they will say, "Well, that's not true, because creation was a miracle, and the flood was a miracle," and they will go right on through and, "Jacob wrestled an angel and that was a miracle, and God was always doing supernatural things." But they fail to make the clear distinction that miracle is a technical term, it is a subcategory for the supernatural.
God is always acting in a supernatural way, even today, every time someone is saved that is a supernatural work. But miracle is a technical term to describe an act of God which He does through a human agency, and they're very rare. Even when you go back into the Old Testament and you find miracles where God acts through a human instrumentation to authenticate His messenger and the message, they are rare and nothing like the healing ministry of Jesus. No one ever just roamed everywhere, healing everybody.'
I highly recommend the entire sermon to all who are caught up in the WOF, Charismatic claims of healing, follow this link, http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-60
You are welcome….to God be the glory.
Daniel Glover
I don't know i think there must be some confusion about the term experience. I believe God atleast in my life uses different events as tools in my life to really fuel my faith. I think this is what I mean by the wording of experience. Like I don't believe God is a vending machine or anything like that. There for us when we need a "dose of God". I believe u can really experience god in the everyday moments as well. Like u walking in a forest preserve and u see a deer. See a sun rise/set etc. My belief is that God wants to show himself to us in many ways. I guess I don't really know what other term to use this as.
People don't know what revival is anymore. There are no modern day examples of this genuine move of grace today which young impressionable Christians have seen, and so many mistakenly think that mass manifesting and mass drunkenness are the picture of what Revival should look like. They think the shenannigans that you see nowadays is what the upper room looked like but are misled.
– Remember, It wasn't all that genuine Kool-aid that killed all them folks in Jonestown – it was the small dose of Cyanide. To say that Jesus is at the middle of everything that happens at ihop is not true. The works righteousness masquarading as devotion @ ihop takes Jesus out of the center and replaces Him with something else – a movement. Prayer is for communion and communication – necessities in relationship ie God and His children – it is not a function or a form to be used for anything else, no matter how noble or pious it may sound. To teach that prayer and worship as seen in Revelation is what God wants for His church to set up on earth before Jesus can return is putting words in God's mouth that He didn't say.
Harp and Bowl ? To try to duplicate on earth something that John saw in a heavenly vision is religious. It is man trying to attain to some glorious position that He has become aware of in God, only he builds it not on Christ Jesus but upon works – Though it may be sincere, It is still religious works.
The Pharisees thought God was at the center of all they did but they were mistaken. Religiousness encompassed all they did and lived but they did not know God and thought they did through their pious lives built up on the religious things of God.
God is not an egomaniac that requires night and day prayer and worship. Ihop places too much emphasis on man as a special ingredient required for Jesus return, but forgets that what delays the return of Christ Jesus is not a lack of global prayer centers but of the true tabernacles of the Holy Spirit – men and women, who have heard the good news and been born again.
Here is a lovely clip that will speak volumes as to the true outbreak of real revival. A modern day example of what I believe true Holy joy and laughter on a public scale in revival looks like. Not the self centered drunkenness and "blessing" touted as revival in third wave circles, but the true joy of salvation!
(it is part 3 of a 3 part documentary with actual footage of missionary work in Papua New Guineau, from about the 3:00min mark onwards is true revival!)
Jane Wilson
Friends Sold Out to IHOP, & I'm Greiving…
This is one of the most current topics on IHOP that I came across here… and I just have to add my greiving heart to those that are losing friends to this cult. Forgive me, I'm not quite sure where to put this… but this is so heavy on my heart. I am convinced by God and His word (that is how He got my attention to this group… His word. Warnings from His word right to my heart) that IHOP is a deceptive cult. I am alone when I say that. Many around me are too "nice" to call them as they are. (Misguided church? Too heavy on the worship/experiences? NO… It is a dragon straight from hell to lure away the sheep. I don't talk like this normally. But I have to call it what it is.) Sheep, run for your lives…. Heed the warnings in God's word!!!!
I have dear friends now, shutting up "shop" (a church) to MOVE to Kansas City to throw their body, soul, and spirit into this group. They are already living it via live-stream 24/7 God TV prayer room feed… and taking trips to experience all of this hype. They are being influenced by friends who moved there last year. They are already speaking the speak, and fasting the fasts, and exhibiting false humility. I am just MARVELING at how quickly this family, good friends, were taken in hook, line, and sinker with this. And how decisively they have cut everything off from their life "before IHOP". They are just counting the days to "get out of here" (Indiana) and get THERE.
This was a very dear friend of mine. I wrote her a very genuine letter of concern, as I desire to be a true friend. But I was totally rejected (the warning/concern). We used to share what God was teaching us from His word… After they got into IHOP… She forte's on sharing her "experiences", or feelings, or nothing at all. And shares very little of the truths we once edified one another with from God's Word. And if I don't have their experiences… then I feel "less spiritual". She does not have to say anything. It is something I discern. She fasts more, she prays more, she experiences more. But I don't want what she's getting. It scares me. It is a sublte trap. Spiritual pride feeds this lust. And the ENTIRE family is on board. (Youth are going to the school, etc.) I am so deeply grieved by this. This pastor (her husband) and his whole family lost to this group. They are selling out and about to make the move this spring. Please pray for them. That God might open their eyes before it is too late.
Oh… how sad I am for them. No one I've talked to thinks there is much danger in this. Sincere Christians take a brief look at the IHOP website and say, "Sounds pretty sound to me!" But do they SEE what is under it? Do they see the sickness there? The yellow eyes and the teeth? Many communicate to my friend, "Oh, God bless you… You must be so excited to be moving soon!" And I just want to sit in sackcloth and ashes and cry. How can I be excited when my dear Christian friend is trading her love for the real Jesus, her simple faith, for a fraudulent EXPERIENCE? My deepest question… Will they even know God is missing amid all of the "experience" they are wrapped up in? They are looking forward to the time when they can BE there 24/7 instead of just live feed. But again, the question comes, "Will you know, will you realize, God is not there?"
Let us seek God, the Living God, and not be decieved. Let us read His Word, and know that Christ alone, His finished work, is ENOUGH. And nothing more, not one experience, can add to the blood that was shed for our redemption. He said, "It is Finished." Our salvation comes from this foolish gospel, faith in Christ, the truth, the preaching of His Word, and not the chasing after "spiritual experience"… the counterfeit, the ANTI-Christ.
Please, please pray for this family. I have wanted to ask God to cause something to happen, the darkness made evident, so they can see… before they move. But I have not sensed God is in those prayers. He allows us to chase after what we want. The scariest thing of all… He often lets us have EXACTLY what we want… (Manna was not enough: Give us meat! Prophets were not enough: Give us a King! Jesus is not enough: Give us experiences that thrill! Move me!) We want it our selfish own way. And there is such danger there. Such consequences. God have mercy on us…
Still Grieving… ~Jane
Dear Jane,
I feel your grief and have known it myself. Continue to hope the best, pray the best and ask God who is able to keep the Saints, no matter how far they may stray, from perishing. While it is yet day and your friends are alive, the power of God is greater than any false or lesser power & He will honor the prayers of a brother or sister over another member of the body of Christ when prayed in humility and under the blood and grace of our Lord Jesus the Christ.
There are many forms of godliness that abound in this present day but stray from the power of the gospel which is Christ and Him crucified, it is sad to see amongst believers.
Stand in the gap, stand in the power of Jesus and believe in the light of God that in one instant can pierce through the darkness of falsehoods, no matter how big or how small.
I pray for a grace to stand, the grace which is the goodness and life of Jesus made available to you to pray and stand.
"The battle is not yours, it is the Lords".
You are not alone. Unfortunately this is happening in greater numbers. I, like you and David, have had good friends, faithful belivers in Jesus, dedicate themselves wholheartedly to IHOP. As you alluded to in your post, it's hard to pinpoint exactly what's wrong at IHOP to discuss it with those involved. Their published statements of beliefs sound good, but it's not exactly what they're living & teaching. If you want more information along those lines, a site that is very informational and straightforward is Critical Issues Commentary (cicministry.org) where you can find articles and audio broadcasts that deconstruct the teachings of Mike Bickle/IHOP. For a more personal insight, check out the story of a former IHOP intern at The Gospel Masquerade (http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/) and the story of a mom whose son has cut her off at the instruction of IHOP (http://sadparent.wordpress.com/). Both very sad and sobering accounts.
I can feel your frustration and pain in your post. I want to encourage you to keep praying for your friends. God can lift the blinders off of their eyes just has He has ours. I will pray for them, and for you. Our God is mighty to save! Rest in Him.
Dear Jane,
I am grieving with you. I know the pain. My whole entire church has been seduced into IHOP , hook, line and sinker. 1,000 or so people. I have left the church, it was impossible to stay under that teaching and we could not be lead by blind pastors. All of our friends are into this movement….we only have one or two friends left. We are feeling the aloneness BUT we know the Lord told us to get away from their altars. So, my husband and I see it as a season to be alone with the Lord until he reconnects us with new friends or our prayer (like yours) is that our friends AWAKE from this delusion.
My son and I have been through so much the past few years. We became involved in a ministry much like these called, The Ramp, in Hamilton, AL.. We left there scarred but knowing God will restore and heal. I have no job, single Mom, my son had chronic illness, yes, God DID make some promises He kept there but not because of the Ramp. It is because He is God and He loves us so much. However, we are living with family in Springfield, MO now and we went to IHOP once since moving here. My son wants to go to school there. Everything seemed ok there. Until recently when I found out that Bill and Beni Johnson are into mysticism. Red flag because I know IHOP invites them to visit and speak often. Now, I have this AWFUL feeling that IHOP believes these lies as well. I have tried to contact them to find out and have not heard back. I cannot find proof on their web site now because the only sermon Mike preached on Mystics has been deleted from their site. I MUST know their stance on this and my son will only accept hard proof of it. Would someone please help me with this? Thank you and God bless you all.
Craig Lee
I'm sad to say; but, there is a PLETHORA of negative information about IHOP on the net. The entire foundation of IHOP is false as it is based on the "prophecies" of Bob Jones and Paul Cain — two well-known false prophets.
Read this and other IHOP related posts on this site:
Michelle…..here are some word for word quotes from Mike Bickle.
Mike Bickle, director of the International House of Prayer claims that God is restoring contemplative prayer to the church. He goes on to claim that contemplative prayer is a God ordained means of entering into the fullness of God, and that the brightest lights in church history have been Roman Catholic mystics who lived during the dark ages. He went on to say the western church had much to learn from these mystics …
[ Mike Bickle states]: 'Everybody is called to live in the contemplative lifestyle. Everyone! Everyone! Everyone! That's one of the great strongholds we have to overcome resistance to contemplative prayer.'" "The Protestant wing of the western church, which is a tiny percentage of the Body of Christ…, is nearly completely (98%) unaware that the Holy Spirit is restoring contemplative prayer—center stage—to the church… The Holy Spirit is restoring this precious jewel (contemplative prayer) to the body of Christ. This is the God ordained means of attaining the fullness of God." audio message Contemplative Prayer pt1 by Mike Bickle
He quotes from the contemplatives (his word for mystics) and announces that he will be teaching from the Sacred Pathways (which promotes the carrying of symbols or icons, choosing a mantra and visualizing God). Each one of these things is contradictory to the Word of God, which forbids imagery and vain repetitions in prayer.
He insists we need to study the lives and writings of the Roman Catholic mystics, and because the bookstore chain of Barnes and Nobles has carried so many books in this regard, he says (in all earnestness) that B & N is prophesying to the church that we need the mystics, and he wants to know why the church isn't picking up on the fact that God is calling the entire Body of Christ to live lifestyles of contemplative prayer?
Mike Bickle says the most inspiring light in all of Christianity came from the Roman Catholic mystics during the dark ages.
These are all quotes from Bickle on the mystics:
"mystics is a legitimate term… I don't want to fight the war…so I'm just saying contemplative prayer, but I mean the mystics—even here at IHOP I say, lets just stay with contemplatives …I don't have time to argue… so I call them the contemplatives…. I don't want to go into the semantics, the debates…so, I'm calling it the contemplatives… I don't have time to argue… but I need the mystics."
"They are Some of the brightest lights in all of history… there has been the brightest lights in all history for men and women of abandonment in the dark ages… somewhere we have to say the dark ages were the luminaries in the grace of God…they were Catholic priests."
"…a study of the lives of the mystics, the contemplatives, through history, and clearly the most inspiring, compelling examples of history, in my world, have come out of the Catholic dark ages. I can't find anything like it in modern times, in America, in the protestant world."
"…we need a little Holy Spirit catalytic jump start. We need to see where a few have gone before us, and say if they did we can, and we can go further… and if you're going to go deep into that well, I'm sad to say, the vast majority of them are going to have Catholic roots in history."
The writings of Father Thomas Keating (the modern day father of contemplative prayer) are also promoted at IHOP. Mike Bickle says he is an example for us of "a way to a deeper life in God." He went on to say, "The protestant world is in great need of examples like these that will beckon us to the fullness of God." – audio message Contemplative Prayer pt1 by Mike Bickle
So essentially, what I believe Mike Bickle is telling the Body of Christ is that we are woefully deficient in having lost God's fullness and need to look to New Age Eastern philosophy and to Roman Catholic mystics as examples in how to restore it!
And his advice to questioning, spiritually languishing, and anguishing souls (who didn't know their real problem was that they wanted more of God—until he told them so) is this, "Don't evaluate yourself, don't evaluate others. Just keep going after it." – audio message Contemplative Prayer pt1 by Mike Bickle
In plain language that means don't read or listen to anything discerningly or analytically. Don't question anything or anybody—not even yourself (except evangelicals of course). Just go with what feels right.
There is such a thing as meditation in Scripture. It means literally "to mutter", or to repeat truth over and over to yourself. But its focus is the Word of God, not some abstract, ethereal, nothingness.
From IHOP's web-site: The Bethany Room is designated for the critically and terminally ill. The same healing model is used in the Bethany Room except that contemplative prayer is used during the prayer time. Contemplative prayer is silent prayer communing with the Holy Spirit who dwells inside of believers in Jesus. This style of prayer provides a peaceful and restful atmosphere while those ministering cry out to the Lord in silence for healing.
Also Michelle and anyone else who is interested there is a very good article called GROWING PAINS IN THE PROPHETIC
A few more resources for you:
* http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/
* Beyond Grace blog
In addition to great, but infrequent blogposts, the Reading Room resources (on the right-hand side of the page) offer archive documents including book-length manuscripts…many broken links in the Reading Room, but I've found the IHOP articles particularly helpful.
The "Sound Doctrine" links are broken, but they're the titles to Assembly of God position papers with those titles which can be accessed at
* Bob DeWaay at Critical Issues Commentary has several articles, and also, radio broadcasts:
Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer: Latter Rain Redivivus
Mike Bickle's Romantic Jesus: IHOP's Bridal Paradigm
Any topic can be entered into the CIC site to search both articles and radio broadcasts.
Re: the radio show archives…the 3 part series called "Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer" was extremely helpful. Outside of the rotten roots at IHOP, it's difficult to nail down the specifics of what's wrong there. The statement from their webpage sounds ok, which makes it hard to talk to others who believe they are godly and not false. Bob DeWaay's methodical deconstruction of their practices brings much clarity to these muddy waters.
* There is a blog called gospelmasquerade written by a former IHOP student. Interesting personal take on the inner workings there.
* M'kayla's Korner blog has many articles on IHOP. It's where a number of us commenters compiled many of the above resources, but the texts of M'kayla's posts on IHOP can be found here:
I have been to the Ramp. Once. I don't live too far away from it. My advice to anyone is to stay far away from there.
My advise as having "been there, done that" would to be to find a solid Bible based church. One that is not looking for grand experiences. One that does expository preaching might be a good place to start. If you go to a church and you here somebody says "thus sayeth the Lord" you should get up and walk out.
From my experience, all Pent/Charismatic churches lead to the same thing as the Ramp, IHOP, Lakeland, etc….
I've read through all of these comments and have found them to be fascinating…
Before I get into what I'm going to say let me state my background. I'm 22 and have grown up in a "non-denominational" reformed baptist church. My church is basically a hymn-singing, exponential Scripture teaching, anti dancing, prophesying, or speaking in tongues church. And I love my church.
I also, however, like many things about ihop. I personally have never been there but have been following them fairly closely for the last two or three years. While there are many "side" issues I very much disagree with them on, there are areas that God is definitely being glorified in.
One of those areas, and it's probly the main area, is the music. I would encourage those of you that are opposed to ihop to listen to the music that comes out of there. It is a heck of a lot more bible-based than much of the music you'll hear on Christian radio. One of the musicians, Misty Edwards, actually shared the Gospel for a good 25 or 30 minutes at the OneThing conference about a month ago( I watched some of it over the web). I have never heard the Gospel(I rarely even hear the Gospel preached now-a-days) shared like that before and it moved me to tears. Definitely life-changing.
I definitely believe that God is being glorified in the lives and music of many of the musicians at ihop. And I think the music is possibly the main good that is coming out of that place. However, I also agree with many who have commented here that disagree with some of Bickle's statements and all the charismatic hype. With that said, I wouldn't necessarely recommend anyone listen to their teachings or read their books… or even attend their services- simply because the hype can end up actually distracting one away from God. However, listening to their music and the musicians testimonies is, I believe, very safe.
So I think the main question here comes down to- are the people at ihop really saved? and my answer would be that I believe there are no more unbelievers at ihop than there are at a baptist or methodist or lutheren church.We must remember that we are the body of Christ. the people at ihop believe the Gospel and love Jesus. The best thing we can do is pray that God will open their eyes to the things that aren't pleasing to Him and pray the same for ourselves and our own churches.
Hi Steph-
Interesting comment about the music, and I hope someone else with more experience can offer some insight in this area concerning this new worship music.
I struggle with the apparent contradiction – how can someplace like IHOP or Bethel, where false doctrines are taught and false teachers encouraged (like Bentley or KC prophets), at the same time produce worship music that is not just fluff.
Being less emotional, music does not affect me either way. But I have friends and family who testify on how for eg. Bethel worship music brings them closer to God, and allows them to really "press into His presence". (again, this doesn't compute to me, but it means a lot to their personal worship in experiencing His presence **- is this wrong to use music to do this**?).
My initial reaction is to throw out anything from Bethel or IHOP – because of the false teaching. Is this wrong? Any scripture either way?
Some of my ideas, but definitely not researched–
-Vineyard had a similar "new worship sound" that changed the way the church worshipped. But they began to fall doctrinely (Toronto Blessing, KC prophets), and now seem to be on the decline. So this is one eg. where just good worship did not bear fruit if the doctrine was not equally sound.
-I've seen youtubes comparing different music effects of this new worship with eastern mystic trances, but I really don't know if that is just a stretch trying to make some connection (although singing the same phrase for 10 minutes does sound like a mantra)
-I read that some believe that Satan was head worshipper before he fell – but not sure how this connects, if it even does
Any comments here would be appreciated as an aid in discerning truth from danger- I sense something amiss, but I don't want to throw out the proverbial baby with the bath water
– thanks in advance
yeah, the question of whether or not ihop's worship music is really glorifying to God in light of what ihop's leadership teaches has been something i've wondered for a while now. i don't like how repetetive it is but a lot of it comes straight from the bible… and, again, a few of the musicians always seem to make it a point to share the Scriptural gospel– which i think God works through whether their ministry is accult or not.
Bethel's worsip music i don't think is quite as repetetive and i don't know enough about the church's background to really complain too much about what i've heard or seen there. but i think the main good thing i've heard in both ihop and Bethel's music is its focus on God as opposed to modern contemporary Christian music that is very self-centered much of the time.
Singing the scripture is wonderful. Believing that we must sing back to God His words and in doing so establish some spiritual power in the heavens which when organized on a worldwide scale will usher in His return, is another thing altogether.
Harp and Bowl worship is a copycat format based upon the worship in Revelation and the earthly tabernacle of David. It is an attempt to mirror on earth the worship of heaven which is to some is "worship perfected". Caring for the orphans and widows is very "un-worshipy" and yet it is true religion. To sing worship to God 24/7 just to be like the angels in revelation, is sentimental idolatry. It is escapism and it lifts up the form of worship to the absolute apex of all by maximum possible effort (non-stop 24/7 night and day) and by utter physical devotion (vows of celibacy, fasted lifestyle, abandon from the world, mystic aims..).
Facing life and all of it's imperfect people and lost souls and ugliness, and going out as missionaries, not sitting in secluded bliss akin to mystic pursuits, that is what we are called to do.
The words and songs coming out of the modern day convent iHop are meant by the singers to be a hastening ingredient as it were in the Second Coming of Christ. – The motive and intent of the movement is where the foundation is shifty and not built on the full work of atonement and the completed work of Christ Jesus. Whenever we format a formula which we work towards in order to get God to do something – we leave the place of the children of God and act like strangers to the grace of Jesus. Works righteousness is the same in the temple or on a far off mountain. It can be accompanied by timbrels and harps just as it can be accompanied by the sound of the self administered lashings of the tortured soul trying to appease God's righteous and Holy ways by the flesh.
We must worship God in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.
Hi David – I was hoping you would address this, since I really appreciate your insightful comments on other past issues on this blog. You seem to have a good foundation of both truth and experience.
So, if I could summarize, you are saying that the INTENT behind IHOP worship is faulty (to usher in the coming of Christ as taught in false NAR dominionism doctrine), thus tainting it in that setting.
But what if other believers, who do NOT follow the NAR doctrine, find IHOP or Bethel music a real benefit in their daily walk and worship (since it is so God-centered vs. man centered, and heavy in scripture)? Is it then "positive", since it is promoting the believer's relationship with God (and not promoting false teaching in that setting)?
I know that the hearts of many worshipers & "intercessory missionaries" @ iHop are coming from a place that does desire more of God and to know Him more – and thus the nature & form of iHop fits perfectly with these noble ideals – the only problem is that iHop promotes a carnal/spirituality towards Jesus and does all that it does in order that Spiritual Dominion of Jesus be made perfect on earth by Massive prayer numbers for Maximum time with total abandon. The ideals are based upon strength of numbers and strength of devotion by continuous effort. The prophecy by Bob Jones that pointed Mike in this direction, like all Bob's prophesies was sensational and carnal – fantastic even.. 24/7 prayer where people from all over could come and where the glory of God would never die? That's amazing! What a tribute to God! – the only problem is it follows the tower of Babel in its intent to build a tower of prayer and worship that would reach up to heaven. Works righteousness is subtle and it doesn't mind wearing the garb of the temple, actually it sells its cause best when it does wear religious robes.
When Jesus walked the earth many people loved Him and followed after Him with a distorted view of what His purpose was and how to help Him fulfill that purpose. They wanted to MAKE Him King, and when He carried His cross up the hill to His death, those carnal desires for Him turned to disbelief and anger because those notions of Messiah were never of God or from above in the first place.
His disciples wanted to call down fire on people, fight for position in His Kingdom, keep Him from the death He prophesied.. the masses wanted to crown Him King after feeding them, they wanted Him to overthrow the Roman empire… – so much of it came from well meaning followers who IMAGINED His rulership and Messianic role from carnal hearts.
The push to build a form of worship and prayer likened unto Revelation's Harp and Bowl because "that's what worship looks like in heaven" is a sentimental desire to build the perfect form of something spiritual. Jesus never talked about worshiping and praying in this manner as the right or most effective way to pray – when His disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray He didn't teach them Harp and Bowl prayer, yet somehow this form of prayer & spirituality has taken over Jesus teachings on prayer and worship and we have a people building a tower of Babel under the NAR, Third Wave banner of misconceptions.
The ingredients for this movement are Maximum numbers praying and worshiping for maximum time possible with maximum sacrifice of food and other earthly things – and this is a model which they teach must be on every nation crying out before Jesus will return. The "Spirit and the Bride say come" verse means alot to this movement – except Jesus didnt say "pray me back", He said preach the good news to every creature so that every human will get the chance to receive my completed work and eternal life and salvation through me. (paraphrased)
God is not an egomaniac who refuses to send His Son to the party until enough people are singing happy birthday. The intent of iHop is to hasten the return of Jesus through night and day and national prayer houses(towers). The heart felt cries of worshipers who write beautiful music are "love sick" for His return but I tell you, calling out to Him to return when He didn't ask us to call Him back will not accomplish it's goal.
It is rather self centered to want Jesus to come back as soon as possible just so we can be with Him even after He has told us He will never leave us and is with us unto the end. How about the lost? Wouldn't a true servant desire the Master's sacrifice yield the full reward? For God so loved the World. This means Jesus is for the whole world and not an elite company, and He came for the whole world not a network of prayer houses.
We have taken the things of this world and replaced the eternal things, we have gone back to physical buildings tabernacles/Prayer houses and armies and the might of the Old Testament and shrugged off true religion and discipleship to Jesus from the New Testament.
I can appreciate the hearts of the worshipers @ iHop and know that they truly do want more of Him, and yet I can see that the office which they believe they hold is a man-made one, and the false idea that Jesus comes through a world wide woo-ing is a sentimental reaching up for a God who has already come down and now wants us to go out.
taher, I myself have been ministered to through songs that echo the truth of the Word of God and proclaim His nature and His love and have later found out that the singer or writer was caught up in homosexuality, false claims, lying, adultery – nevertheless the songs still moved my heart because they spoke of eternal truth. I also know great men and women of God who try to be worshipers but do not have a gift or ability, but nonetheless they hearts really really want to be "a worshiper" – they may not move me the same emotionally spiritually or even sound good at all but I know there hearts are for the Lord completely and I know that they are trying to find an identity in the church or even an outlet for the inner angst between who God is and what we are in the flesh & the desire to be truly changed into His image and likeness.
There are worshipers that are gifted and who also preach out of God's word and write songs from that place – sometimes the gift of teaching is not their gift and so error can creep in and you can mix bad theology with great worship. I think music is so powerful and words to music are so powerful and can move the heart and emotions, but like Art Katz used to say – if you can quiet your soul in the midst of a worship experience and discern with your spirit, so much of the soulish triggers we feel will have no effect and the nature of the worship unto God is clear to discern.
Satan tempted Jesus by quoting scripture and even praising the ability of Jesus to fall from a great height and not dash his foot against a rock by virtue of the angelic help – but the intent and motive behind it all was temptation, to lure Jesus away from following the Will of the Father. What was wrong with Jesus eating bread when He was hungry & His fast was finished? Nothing, it's just that Satan tempted Him to turn stones into bread and eat from a source that spoke of the law – stone, when Jesus was the bread come down from heaven who would write the law on our hearts. It seemed like a nice gesture and great idea that Satan threw at Jesus but it was not God's way and it was not in the will of the Father.
To sing the scripture is wonderful, but to translate the scripture one has just sung through the lens of a dominion mindset or putting a sensual tone into songs of adoration of The Son of God – (ie Song of Songs wooing and cooing and calling out as a "love-sick" bride) it can slowly turn the hearer's understanding of God's word in the same direction.
We are encouraged to sing hymns, prophesy, encourage and build up one another in brotherly love and I believe that hymns and songs have that power to lift the soul. I believe that in moving the soul, music also has the ability to steer the heart – and so I pay careful heed to what I let enter in and weigh up alot with the scripture before I jump on any musical bandwagon, especially when you have free flowing worship which includes "calling forth" "decreeing" & vowing. I trust God will speak to you through His Spirit of Truth and He will convict you according to His Truth.
I personally can appreciate the adoration of God and lifting Him up that many @ iHop desire, yet because it is aimed at getting God to do something – it looses it's impact as free-will offering because it has a end-goal in mind. MAKING Jesus come back.
I see "music" (contemporary)-in thes movements as threefold:
1. Worship (with NO expectation–just because it's deserved) NOTE: The vineyard originally had this focus and seem to be moving back to it now. Additionally, they "left" the movements mentioned for the discussed reasons. I've some interesting new directs they have embarked on. Not much of this left honestly–still a few holdouts.
2. Praise (Look at all the good stuff we get) NOTE: This was exploded in the 90's in these movements and still has a primary emphasis in a lot of circles.
3. Declaration (singing in something). This is what David and Taher are referring to. Each "place" has a vision and they all seem to collaborate at some levels. We usher in some "thing" with our declarations (WoF foundation). I don't roll with this.
Finally, I believe there is good stuff coming out these places (music). There are a few "Worship" centered leaders. Doctrine and theology have nothing to do with it.
Little Jab: Cessationism is a heretical false doctrine (in my eyes) yet some great music comes from these denominations and yes, they are Christians.
@ Steph:
Great comments all: David, Taher, Plotinus.
My two cents is that's there's more error than just INTENT in the IHOP and Bethel songs. Having said that, the intent of producing a "spiritual effect" — whether to change an "atmosphere", bring down the tangible "glory" of God or hasten "God's outpouring and Second coming" or perform "spiritual warfare" hints at a spiritual magic formula or recipe that include plenty of techniques such as song repetition.
Futhermore, in my opinion, there's plenty of doctrinal error. In IHOP's case, overemphasis on the sensual Song of Songs/Bridal Paradigm and lots of emphasis on Latter Rain theology ("rain" lyrics abound in many songs). Jonathon Stockstill and Deluge Band from Bethany World Prayer Center is another example. Almost every Deluge song refers to "rain", "second rain" etc, etc. Who knows maybe even the name "Deluge" is meant to connect to a massive intense rainfall.
Moreover, both wrong doctrines (overemphasis on Song of Songs/Jesus is My Lover and Latter Rain) are EXTREMELY man-centered not God-centered despite Scripture content in the lyrics.
Notice all of the "I" and "me" in the lyrics below from Misty Edwards. In the same way, Latter Rain is very much man-centered theology…WE get to "enjoy" the rain and "play"/"rejoice" in it as opposed to the Scriptures saying that the Holy Spirit was given to "glorify Jesus" (John 16:13,14) and to empower us as witnesses of Jesus Christ (Acts 1:8). All signs and wonders in Scripture were for the purpose of ministering the Gospel (Philip being translated, Peter's trance and vision, etc) as opposed to the meaningless "signs and wonders" of today: laughing, gold dust, drunkenness, angel feathers, roaring, etc.
In my opinion, any doctrine that moves believers away from orthodoxy is dangerous, even if it contains Scripture. And this is what the "Jesus is my Lover" and Latter Rain doctrines do. Those doctrines are not found in proper hermaneutical exposition of the texts.
Final thought: It seems to me that music has replaced faith and preaching as the new means of grace. The influence of music has become so dominant that it's not unusual for worship teams to spend more time in ministry to the congregation than pastors do preaching these days. My church often "worships" worship, if you get what I mean.
Again, note all of the "I" and "me" references in the lyrics below vs. worshiping God for who He is, the true OT and NT examples of praise and worship. Also notice the sensuality.
From Misty Edwards' song, "You won't relent":
I'll set You as a seal upon my heart
As a seal upon my arm
For there is love that is as strong as death
Jealousy demanding as the grave
And many waters cannot quench this love
Come be the fire inside of me
Come be the flame upon my heart
Come be the fire inside of me
From "I Will Waste My Life"
I will waste my life I'll be tested and tried
With no regrets inside of me to find I'm at Your feet
I'll leave my father's house and I'll leave my mother
I'll leave all I have known and I'll have no other
I am in love with You There is no cost
I am in love with You There is no loss
I am in love with You I want to take Your name
I am in love with You I want to cling to You Jesus
Just let me cling to You Jesus
I'll say goodbye to my father my mother
I'll turn my back on every other love and
I'll press on yes I'll press on
From "Dove's Eyes"
I don't want to talk about You like You're not in the room
I want to look right at You I want to sing right to You
I believe that You are listening
I believe that You move at the sound of my voice
Give me dove's eyes
Give me undistracted devotion for only You
From "Favorite One"
Here I am your favorite one
What are You thinking, what are You feeling?
I have to know
(Repeat x 2)
For I, I'm after Your heart
I'm after Your heart
I am after You
(Repeat x 2)
(Repeat all x4)
And I'll crown You with my love.
(Repeat x7)
Until You and I are one
** Final final thought re: Misty Edwards' preaching: On Beyond Grace blogspot, Bill Fawcett posted the following about one example of her preaching:
"MistyEdwards 12-29009.mp3 at IHOP's OneThing 2009
Starting around 11:00, Edwards is preaching pretty good, telling us how we deserved hell, but then she screws it up by just making things up.
"and Jesus stood in the gap, and he took that cup of wrath that had your name on it, you should have drank it, it should have been me, He took that cup, and he drank of that cup, he drank of the cup of the marriage wine, and He looked at the world, with his arms wide open and his heart wide open, and He said "marry me, marry me, I want you." He said "I want you.""
Hmm, I missed that in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Go Figure. I mean, I understand why they could think that, but the kids being preached to probably think this was scripture."
One of the not so surprising outcomes of being fully immersed in IHOP's Bridal Paradigm/Jesus-is-my-Lover culture.
@ Steph
I see a "Steph" commenting on Ariel's Gospel Masquerade blog…not sure if it's you or not. Found the following comments from Laura referring to Ariel's comment # 8 quite interesting:
[from Ariel's article] 8. The more leadership responsibility I was given as an intern, the more I got peeks into the "inside". I saw the outer fringes of the internal operations of how IHOP functioned. I was on an IHOP dance team and sang as a chorus leader on a few worship teams. To dance, I had to follow a specific model that IHOP required. To sing, I had to attend the briefing/de-briefing meetings before and after each worship set where I saw first-hand how carefully controlled that the seemingly "spontaneous" aspects of worship were carefully calculated and often planned ahead of time.
[Laura's comment] After several nights of watching the recent IHOP 'awakening' and onething web casts, I began to successfully predict what would happen next simply by watching the clock. It quickly became obvious the music would rise and fall on cue, ushering in whatever move-of-the-spirit the leadership had previously decided upon.
I find it interesting that night after night, and hour after hour, the worship team had endless amounts of time for repetitious phrases like, "I will resist my high opinions" & "I resist my foolish thoughts" (which I interpreted as propaganda to re-enforce the legitimacy of the manifestations), but during a RARE teaching segment, featuring Lou Engle (an approximate 20-30 minute window during the 4 hour meeting), time was suddenly too limited to read even a few passages of scripture from the Bible.
Pull the plug on the instruments and then watch most of the interns and staff go home!
In a different post, Ariel writes about the hypnotic effect of the song repetition:
"Because I know the powerful effect of hypnosis on the human mind, I have not listened to music produced by IHOP in years. Shortly after I left, I put on one of the CDs I still had from when I was there. The repetitive chanting which IHOP calls "choruses" put me almost instantly into a familiar trance-like state. I felt almost nauseated even just to listen to it. I remember telling my Mom that there was something in the music that I didn't hear when I was at IHOP but now it was so overwhelming, I couldn't handle it. I threw out all of the music I owned which had been produced through IHOP. Why am I telling you this? Because unless you understand the power of hypnosis and the way IHOP is using it to fuel spiritual addiction, you will think that their "Harp & Bowl Model" using repetitive chorus lines is completely innocent…which is far from true.
Hypnosis puts you into an altered state of consciousness—making you susceptible and receptive to any message you hear while in that altered mental state. Don't just take my word for it–do a little research into how hypnosis works and it's pretty clearly spelled out. The worlds of psychiatry and psychology use it as a form of "therapy" to help people overcome addictions such as smoking. But hypnosis can also be used to 'program' as well as 'de-program' the ones it is used on. (many hypno-therapists use it to de-program those who have been in satantic rituals or undergone military mind control)
I refer to spiritual addiction as "the perfect crime" because of the way hypnosis is used to 'cover up the evidence' of any mis-deed–making the victims of the abuse look like the ones who missed it and are in the wrong. I've noticed many times when I was assigned to be in the prayer room a glassy-eyed, glazed over look on many people's faces. It was like they were locked in some kind of stupor. I remember thinking after I left IHOP: "Why didn't I see the deceptions sooner? When did this hook me? How did I get so attached that it controlled me and I defended it so vehemently?" The hypnosis used of that environment is like covering up the finger prints of a crime scene. You don't remember when things went awry. You can't recall how or when you went from being the casual observer who was just attending conferences to the full-fledged IHOPer that would eat (or not eat), breath and sleep their mantras and try to convert everyone you know to sell their homes and move to Kansas City to join this "new" movement. Suddenly I became part of their word-of-mouth marketing department…and instead of getting paid for publicity, I was in fact paying them.
Spiritual hypnosis, as used in IHOP, utilizes repetitive, chanting, mantra-like phrases to bypass the mind (often via music) to touch people on a soulish level because it alters the brain's waves and affects mood and emotions. IHOP's theology is largely imparted through music. Because it is sung hypnotically over people…over…and over…and over again, it bypasses the mind and all rational/logical thought processes and is embraced on an emotional level. People feel an emotional connection to IHOP largely because of the many hours spent in the prayer room listening to repetitive music."
I know from experience that I have to actively be watchful at our church prayer meetings to not just mindlessly start singing along when one song seques into the next without noting what exact words are in the next song…whether or not it's something I agree with theologically. Add to that the swaying that such a repetitive environment lends itself to.
Looks like we are hijacking this thread into a discussion of new music – but interesting nevertheless..
– thanks for your comments. A good 3-way breakdown of the types of music, with #3 category being my concern. Your "jab" is a good reminder that there are extreme ditches on both side of the road. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem more tolerant of the extremes and are able to embrace them easily. I'll have to admit, I am more of a "black-and-white" person, and these shades of gray sometimes trouble me and I tend to try to avoid the ditches – probably a fault I need to work on (I need to stop majoring on the minors).
-I guess I tend to agree with you that there is something just not quite right with the new music. I don't want to be like the WOF's who look for a demon behind every bush, but I have seen other comments from those who have experienced mysticism, and they say to beware.
eg. http://solasisters.blogspot.com/2009/12/mysticism-counterfeit-holy-spirit.html
from the blog:
"Speaking as a former mystic/gnostic/hindu/buddhist/pagan, I can attest that the "powering down" thing that mystics do is not biblical…
False religions do not have this indwelling of the Holy Spirit taking place within their adherents. So what's a Devil to do? Well, he'll just do what he's always done, and rather successfully at that: create some kind of counterfeit experience to mimic a real blessing given by God to true Christians.
So let's look at how mysticism functions. Practically speaking, how does Satan get people into a mystical state? Well, there are many different avenues he has given us for getting into this state. One of the most widely used practices is mantra meditation. This is done by using a repetitive device (repeating a word, focusing on breathing, singing or speaking a phrase over and over) until the mind is emptied and "parked." It's not driving, it's not in reverse, it's idling. It's parked. There are other ways, of course, such as staring at a candle or an image, drumming, whirling, dancing and taking mind-altering drugs. But for our purposes here, we're going to be looking mainly at mantra meditation, as this is what is flowing unchecked into once-solid churches.
In this meditative state, a person is still awake and somewhat aware but one's God-given boundaries are down. So what happens to a person in this state? Mantra meditation is so very seductive because it generates a very powerful, seemingly supernatural experience that can make one feel as if they are actually encountering "God." The first meditation I ever did at age 20 left me utterly convinced that I had experienced the presence of God.
And meditation counters this claim by generating an experience in which a person feels a profound sense of interconnectedness and oneness with all that "feels" counter to the exclusive truth claims of Christianity. It feels just like you have had an encounter with God, that you have been in the presence of the Divine…only, you haven't.
Now. Let's look at the logical conclusions that practicing mystics MUST come to if they are staying true to their belief system: If I can experience God through meditation, then the cross has no meaning. And Jesus was a liar when He said that He was the only way to God."
-very similiar to the hypnotic effect described by Gospelmasquerade.
Again , maybe I'm too left-brain to be susceptible, since this music really does nothing for me (actually, I find it quite annoying and boring). But I have friends who repeatedly comment that ONLY through this music do they feel the real presence of God.
Do others agree?
How does this music style affect you?
Is this OK for mature Christians only who are well grounded in what they believe in and only using it to enhance their relationship with God, but less so for new believers who don't have a firm foundation and can fall into false teaching?
@ norcal
yeah, that's me. i've been around a few of these blogs in the last few days. thanks for your insightful comments along with everyone else's. quite honestly i was preparing to apply to ihop's forunner music school just a week ago until i started doing more research on the place. now i've come to the conclusion that ihop as well as much of the charismatic church is somewhat a part of the whole emerging church movement… which is no small thing considering i've been immersed on a daily basis in the teachings, worship, and lifestyle of places like ihop and bethel. God is merciful in showing me the truth. and thank you all for knowing the bible and getting the truth out there.
@ Steph
You're very welcome. It was only God's grace – and I don't use that phrase as a cliche – that started my eyes being opened to all of this about 9 months ago. It took me awhile to discover these blogs…did a lot of independent research at the start.
A good prayer to pray over yourself (I do it for myself and family all the time) is from 2 Thess. 2:10…"give me a love for the truth…"
@ taher
honestly, if a certain style of music can't be "handled" by a young believer then it probly means it's just not a good idea for any believer to listen to it. though i'm just beginning to see ihop and the rest from an "outsiders" perspective- i think their music is much like their doctrine. many of their songs aren't bad at all ( they aren't repetitive, new-age like, or self-focused). they have enough of those songs to make you think the music is okay. the other half or 3/4 of the music IS repetitive and new-age in nature. since it can be somewhat difficult to seperate the good from the bad… it's probly, as many of you have said, best not to listen to any of it at all. let alone the fact that when you purchase their music, you're supporting their cause.
thanks, Chrystal. sorting through all of this can be a little difficult. but God is good and i'm finding a lot of comfort in knowing how straight forward the true gospel really is.
Thank you all for posting in response to my questions about The Ramp and IHOP. My son and I are devastated and emotionally a mess right now. I'm unemployed. We've lost everything. 11 weeks of unemployment left. I still believe God will restore what the locusts have eaten. And they ate everything I had at the Ramp and had no problem taking it all, even knowing I was a single Mom who was unemployed. I am working on forgiving them and myself and seeing that my son is healed in the process. What a mess these deceived people are leaving for others. I have many friends there who have given up everything, lost homes, left jobs, everything. Their children have been removed from their grandparents, etc. All to follow a cult. I'm heartsick for them all. Praise God for all of us who saw the truth and got out.
Oh, we are also spiritually a mess. We can't even go to church at this point. Not sure who to trust anymore.
sorry for everything that's happened to you, Michelle. i really don't have all the answers(especially in this time of "de-toxing" from these places myself) but just know that reading the Word and continuing to pray are things you can always know are trustworthy. also be comforted in knowing that God is growing character inside you and your son right now that is and will be glorifying to Him. keep running, we're praying for you!
Amen and thank you so much. All of you, for your prayers for us. I pray that the blinders will be removed from the eyes of the deceived. In Jesus' name. Amen.
I know what it is like to have to leave behind everything you have learned.


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Actress Keira Knightley has been roped in to lend her voice to Tinker Bell in the new Peter Pan movie.
The 25-year-old star will provide the voice for the mischievous fairy in Neverland for the film, due to be shown on TV this summer, reports mirror.co.uk.
Knightley will record her animated role this spring and she appears opposite Harry Potter star Rhys Ifans as Hook, the mentor of a gang of young pickpockets, including Peter (Charlie Rowe), who steal a magical treasure that transports them to Neverland.
« Sabyasachi draws curtains on LFW day 1 sans Rani, Vidya Jennifer Aniston to play country musician »


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Woman Sues Her College Because She Can't Find a Job
On the one hand, this is crazy. On the other, is it?
This weekend the Times "Styles" section profiled a number of middle-aged transitioners who were getting back into the workforce via their college alumni networks. "It's all free," one said happily of the services at Syracuse. Not everyone is so pleased with their alma mater's level of support. Earlier today, a 27-year-old New York City woman named Trina Thompson filed suit against Monroe in the Bronx, claiming the school didn't help her find a job and demanding her $70,000 in tuition back.
Thompson says she's been unable to find gainful employment since she received her information technology degree in April. She says the Bronx school's Office of Career Advancement hasn't provided her with the leads and career advice it promises.
On the one hand, this is ridiculous: This lady graduated in April, and there's a freaking recession. On the other hand, fair enough. Monroe touts its "career-oriented" focus all over its website ("resource is our middle name"), so maybe they should offer a your-money-back guarantee to dissatisfied customers. In fact, maybe all lower-tier colleges should consider having students sign a fine-print contract during orientation, since they're the schools who tend to overpromise on the employment front by marketing themselves as job supermarkets. For instance, now that we think about it, the only thing the decidedly preprofessional Temple University did for Intel Jessica was score her an interview or two with people who registered visible disappointment that she was not black nor any good at basketball. Maybe she'll sue them. Just as soon as she finishes suing her high-school pot dealer and her bad attitude.
Unemployed Woman Sues College For Tuition [AP via HuffPo]
Alumni Use Old School Ties to Find Work [NYT]


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Nice picture, Bits-n-Pieces. Happy Christmas to you and all of yours. Miguel
What a great capture Bits-n-Pieces!
Thanks very much, Conrad and Miguel ! After the shot I posted of geese landing, I felt I owed it to them to post a nice dignified one, too. And wishes for a happy holiday season for you both. Cheers!
Very nice B-n-P, I see Airgoose flight-#2 is missing a couple navigation lights and is getting an escort to the landing field.
LOL, Guy. Actually, I just snapped the shot right at the split second both strobes on the right one were in the 'off' phase. Thanks! (And I'm really glad they'd all only just woken up and hadn't gotten their digestive tracks working yet as I was standing right under them...thank goodness - no jettisoned cargo!)
You did and it is awesome! Wow!
You wrote under my contest photo: A jet just broke the sound barrier? :D
I just want to let you know that you were 100% right. My husband actually has a photo of the reflection of the jet here!
By the way: Your birds are better than any jet!
Greetings from Connecticut, Barbara
Thanks Barbara! And hi to Frank for his Jet shot - Cheers!
Excellent shot! Thanks for posting it on "Less Is More." Cheers, Marilyn
Hi Marilyn - Thanks! And thanks for starting that 'Less is More' thread - it really is a wonderful one!
Interesting photo.Best regards,sadass. My Contest
Thanks very much, sadass Cheers!
Beets-n-Peas, check your title! These dudes anywhere near the Hudson River?
No - Those must have been errant Canada Geese. These are much smarter Massachusetts Geese! Beets-Peas-n-SPAM! Yum Yum!
Nicely done, Bits. Those highlights really do make the shot. A+.
Thanks very much not1word! Amazing the cool light on things one can get right at sunrise. Some one of these days I'm gonna try it again!
Perfect shot.
Greetings from Cologne in Germany, yourJess
Thanks Jess
A wonderful moment.I have no words.Have a lot of good shots.Greetings from Slovakia.


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Though born in America, Irish actor Patrick McGoohan rose to become the number-one British TV star in the 1950s to 1960s era. His parents moved to Ireland when he was very young and McGoohan acquired a neutral accent that sounds at home in British or American dialogue. He was an avid stage actor and performed hundreds of times in small and large ... See full bio »