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Talk:Maritime fur trade
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- It lasted until the middle to late 19th century. Russians controlled the Alaskan coast during the entire era.
Well, the exception is 1839-1867, when the British controlled the trade in the southeast Alaska Panhandle (south of 56'30"); the wording should also be "what is now the Alaskan coast" as before 1867 "Alaska" as a term meant the "Alaska mainland", i.e. west of 141st longitude..
- Ya, that could be worded better. I was trying to say something about the difference between the "northern sector" vs. the "southern sector", divided approximately at Sitka--just used the word "Alaska" as shorthand--perhaps could be better put. Pfly (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Somewhere else I can't find just now the article says that the triangular trade had no great impact on other economies; that must be an opinion from one of your sources because I've read materials - have to think who later - that say that the sea otter trade launched the porcelain trade and inherently was a foundation of the China Trade, both the UK and the US; thereby, please note, laying the seeds of the trade imbalance that led to the Opium Wars; traders had to accept porcelain instead of silver in Canton by Chinese law; then the shipping of porcelain via/into British Indian instigated the reverse trade in tea/opium which brought about so much grief later; others have observed that the marine fur trade laid the foundations for the long-standing trade connections between China and BC; at least as far as familiarity with the routes used; likewise the old and still-established bond between Hawaii and BC. I'll see if I can remember which authors said things like that; the Akriggs possibly, Bancroft also possibly.Skookum1 (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yea, the source for that part is the Gibson book. His point was that the effect on Chinese society (not just economy) as a whole was not huge, and that the fur trade was relatively small compared to the china trade in general. As far as I know the general China trade predated the fur trade in Canton. At least the East India Company was already operating there, and the first America traders in China were not fur traders. Gibson's got a few tables about trade volumes and such on the topic. He sums up the whole topic by saying something like, the China Trade ended up with the Opium Wars and the forcing open of China, etc, but that the maritime fur trade was a relatively minor aspect of the China Trade. It's a topic I know little about though, so perhaps there are other better sources. Anyway, off to Portland for a couple days. Pfly (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
GA Review[edit]
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Maritime Fur Trade/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Xtzou (Talk) 21:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
(beginning review)
- I linked to Specie (disambiguation) specifically because none of the links on that page seemed quite right. Looking for other options, perhaps Precious metal#Bullion would be better, as it includes metal ingots as well as coinage. Would there be a need to source the meaning and relevance to this historic era? Perhaps not the best source, but this page says: Initially, China showed an interest in purchasing three items from American merchants: Spanish bullion, ginseng from the Appalachian Mountains, and furs, particularly sea otter pelts. Bullion, also known as specie, was usually in the form of Spanish silver mostly mined in Latin America, and Silver, used as a commodity and not a currency, was not charged an import fee and also made it more desirable for Americans to use for exchanging goods. Or it could just say something like "bullion (also known as specie)" for the first use. Or perhaps we can assume readers know what "specie" means and not wikilink it at all? Hmm, well for now I'll just go with linking to bullion, "also known as specie"--the term specie seems more commonly used, from what I've read on the topic.
- As for Cassia, as I understand it the term was used loosely at the time for various species. Perhaps it would be best to link to Cinnamomum while explaining it was called cassia at the time? I'll try it.
- "Native Hawaiian society was similarly effected by the sudden influx of Western wealth and technology" - "effected" should be "affected"
- done.
- "extirpated" - it would be better if you used different wording
- Because people might not know what it means? I'm not sure what other word would convey the same meaning. Perhaps a link to Local extinction, piped to extirpation? The main point being that species like the sea otter did not go extinct totally, just regionally. I assumed the word was generally understood as such. But I'll go ahead and put in the local extinction link.
- Origins
- "New Spain was being extended northward into Alta California and Spanish explorers were charting the coast north." - just seems clumsy
- I've rewritten it, in the process expanding from one sentence to most of a paragraph. Pfly (talk) 05:53, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think this section needs more references
- "with thousands of islands, numerous straits and fjords, and a mountainous, rocky, often very steep shoreline. Navigational hazardous included persistent rain, high winds, thick fogs, strong currents and tides, and hidden rocks. Wind patterns were often contrary, variable, and baffling, especially within the coastal straits and archipelagoes, making sailing dangerous and frustrating. Early explorations before the maritime fur trade era—by Juan Pérez, Bruno de Heceta, Bogeda y Quadra, and James Cook—produced only rough surveys of the coast's general features. Detailed surveys were undertaken in only a few relatively small areas, such as Nootka Sound and Bucareli Bay. Russian exploration before 1785 had produced mainly rough surveys, largely restricted to the Aleutian Islands and mainland Alaska west of Cape Saint Elias. British and American maritime fur traders began visiting the Northwest Coast in 1785, at which time it was mostly unexplored. Although non-commercial exploration voyages continued, especially by the Spanish Navy, the maritime fur traders made a number of significant discoveries. Notable examples include the Strait of Juan de Fuca, Clayoquot Sound, and Barkley Sound, all found by Charles William Barkley, Queen Charlotte Strait by James Strange, Fitz Hugh Sound by James Hanna, Grays Harbor and the Columbia River by Robert Gray. George Dixon explored the Dixon Entrance and was the first to realize that the Queen Charlotte Islands were not part of the mainland." This whole section is unreferenced. It is written in a "literary" style so it needs references.
- I'll work on improving the wording (yes, that first one is clumsy), and inserting references. Some of this text I had originally intended to put in the lead, so left references out. Much of the exploration stuff is mentioned again, with references, but other statements are not referenced, yes. Should be able to get to this over the next few days.
- Added cites for most of these claims (all to one book, and some covering many pages since the statements are essentially summaries of fairly long bits of history). The bit about the coast being hazardous came from a book I need to get from the library again, so will take a few days. Pfly (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, added reference for the coast's hazardous nature. It was the same as the ref for the Simpson quote (labyrinth of waters). Apparently I put it after the quotation, knowing it was needed there, and forgot to add it again after the rest of the coast info. Anyway, this section should be well sourced now, I think.
- Added cites for most of these claims (all to one book, and some covering many pages since the statements are essentially summaries of fairly long bits of history). The bit about the coast being hazardous came from a book I need to get from the library again, so will take a few days. Pfly (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Russian American
- " From 1843 to the founding of the Russian-American Company in 1799 over one hundred private fur trading and hunting voyages to North America, which in total garnered over eight million silver rubles" - This appears to be in the wrong order.
- Oops, yes, should be 1743, not 1843. Fixing now. Thanks for reviewing. Pfly (talk) 08:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
(will continue) Xtzou (Talk) 21:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- British
- "not far short of mutiny" - what is the reference for this quote?
- It's the source cited after the following sentence. I added another note just after the quotation to make it clear. Pfly (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Boom years
- "The trade's boom years ended around 1810, after which there was a long decline marked by increasing diversification." - I'm not clear what "diversification" means here.
- I added the word "economic"--increasing economic diversification. Meaning the traders looked for and tapped new sources of raw materials and new markets, in addition to furs. I'm not sure how to make it clearer and am not good at economic terms and theory. I think the term "economic diversity" is fairly common, but can't say for sure. I tried to find a Wikipedia page on the topic, but only found a few related-but-not-quite-right pages. I could explain it, like above ("traders looked for and tapped new sources of raw materials and new markets"), but thought perhaps it would be enough to just say "economic diversification". Either way.. Pfly (talk) 06:10, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- "The Russian entry to the Northwest Coast, beyond Prince William Sound, was slow because of a shortage of ships and sailors. Yakutat Bay was reached in 1794 and the settlement of Slavorossiya, originally intended to be the colonial capital, was built there in 1795." I'm unclear why this paragraph about the Russians, starting with this sentence, is here. Are you covering just the Boom years for the Americans, British, and Russians in this section? The Boom years were 1790 to 1810?
- I intended the Boom Years section to cover all nationalities, like the Origins section, but didn't make subsections. It would probably be clearer with subsections for each major participant (Russian, American, British). But your point about not reusing names for sections (Russian America is used twice already) makes me unsure how best to do this. Currently the "Origins" section has subsections "Russian America", "British", and "Americans". It would seem logical to use the same names for subsections in the "Boom years" section--but since that can't be done..any thoughts? Is there a guideline somewhere about how to repeat subsection topics without repeating subsection names? Thanks. Perhaps I'll ask this question at the appropriate Help Desk. Pfly (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've made some structural changes, sections, subsections, etc, which among other things should have fixed this issue. Pfly (talk) 09:59, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- The Russian-American Company (RAC) was incorporated in 1799, a year after Catherine's ukase of 1788, right? Just trying to keep the time line straight. (This is a very interesting article.)
- Actually that's eleven years there. Catherine's ukase wasn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, but 1788 is a useful date for splitting the history up--being about when the British and Americans joined in. Pfly (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Diversification and transformation
- Always wondered how the Russian River got its name!
- "The Anglo-Russian treaty further clearly delineated the boundaries of Russian America, defining the coastal Alaska Panhandle and a line running north along 141° west longitude to the Arctic Ocean." - something is missing in this sentence
- Hudson's Bay Company
- "In the wake of the North West Company's (NWC) forced merger into the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC), in 1821," - is this discussed somewhere, or is this the first mention?
- It's the first mention. The topic seemed tangential at best, so I didn't go into it. But I could add a few sentences explaining what happened and why the HBC wasn't involved in the North West before the merger. Maybe something about the NWC's failed hopes of establishing a China trade. Pfly (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Added quite a bit about the NWC, its efforts in the Pacific Northwest, merger into the HBC, etc. Also expanded a bit on the HBC's early efforts with the coast trade, managing to incorporate one of the remaining "See also" links into the main text (Cadboro (schooner)). Pfly (talk) 08:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- The new North West trade
- I became lost when I reached this section. I think I need a refresher at the beginning as to who the major players are and what the time period being discussed is.
- Yea, it gets messy here. I'm thinking how best to fix. I might make the "New North West Trade" into a subsection under the "Diversification and transformation" section. A bit a structural change might make everything clearer. Pfly (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Structural changes to section and subsection names and hierarchy done. I moved the New North West Trade section into a subsection called "American methods and strategies" under the "Diversification and transformation" section. I think this makes better sense and hopefully will help readers keep track of the major players and so on. Pfly (talk) 09:59, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Significance
- "Fur bearing animals had been devastated, especially sea otters, which by 1850 were virtually extinct throughout the North West Coast and found only in the Aleutian Islands and California." Is there a switch to the present in this sentence?
- It was a bit awkward. I split it into two sentences and rewrote slightly. Pfly (talk) 06:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- The section heading "Russian America" is used twice, which is against the MOS heading rules.
- Changed one of the Russian American subsection names. Will do further structural stuff soon. Pfly (talk) 20:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- See also
- It would be better to integrate as many of the wikilinks there into the text of the article. That shows that they really are related to it.
- Heh..I was worried the article was approaching the "too long" point as it was, and doing this would make it longer. But I could certainly do so! Some of the links are not really important, like Kyakhta Russian-Chinese Pidgin. Perhaps some of these should just be taken out. Pfly (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
This is an extremely interesting article, filled with great information. I really enjoyed it. Xtzou (Talk) 19:24, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Reply on headings and organization
- I have done some thinking also, and the solution is not readily apparent to me. The MoS actually says "try" not to reuse headings and gives the disadvantages, see Article titles, headings, and sections. You could ask somewhere, as I have gotten good advice by asking at a help desk. Xtzou (Talk) 20:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Additional comments
- How did this happen (from Lead) "For New England, the maritime fur trade and the significant profits it made helped revitalize the region, contributing to the transformation of New England from an agrarian to an industrial society, especially textile manufacturing." What would furs have to do with textiles?
Xtzou (Talk) 21:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I expanded it slightly to clarify: the money made by New Englanders through the maritime fur trade was invested in New England's industrial development, especially textile mills. Btw, thanks for all your edits, much appreciated! Pfly (talk) 06:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- "extirpated" - to pull out by the roots
Further comments
The article looks great. Just a few additional comments.
- Reservations about "extirpated" (above) are not deal-killing.
- You're right--the standard dictionary definition relates the word to extermination and sounds like intentionality would be part of it. I've seen the term used a lot in ecology and history sources without implied intentionality. Or at least without the goal of local extinction--the sea otter hunters (and beaver and others) knew their actions were causing local extinction but their goal was making money, not causing extinction. That said, you convinced me! I hadn't thought about it much until now. After reading dictionary definitions it looks like the ecology type usage is somewhat...specialized to the field. I've never come across the word outside of the ecological/historical sense. It's a ten dollar word anyway--probably not familiar to many people. So, it's gone now. Pfly (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- A few more references in the "Origins" section and all will be well.
- I'm wondering in the "Diversification and transformation" section if the heading "Russians" could be something like "Russian territories" or "Russian treaties" as you have come up with good qualifiers in "American methods and strategies".
- Yea, I'm not satisfied with several of the headers and have been trying to think of better titles. It's hard! That subsection called "Russians" currently has just two paragraphs with info on Fort Ross and the ukase and treaties of 1821, 24, 25. But other info could be added. I would like to someday add another paragraph or two about Russian-American activity in this later era. So a broader name seems useful, but harder to think up. Maybe "Russian territories" could do for now. Hmm.. Pfly (talk) 18:27, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, just made some section name changes. I think they are sensible. Under "Boom years" changed "Russian-American Company" to "Russian America" (the text contains pre-RAC info and works into the founding of the RAC and a brief overview). Under "Diversification and transformation" changed "Russians" to "Russian-American Company" (the text is about the RAC specifically, post-founding; there's more info about the RAC I'd like to add someday, makes sense here). Under "Significance" changed "Russian America" to "Alaska" (not quite as happy with this change, but wanted to use "Russian America" earlier on page, and since Russian America's fate was to become Alaska, more or less, the name seemed reasonable). Anyway, still pondering the names, but perhaps these are better than before. Pfly (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment I made a couple of heading changes that you are free to revert. I think the heads are heading (excuse the pun) in the right direction. I'm not worried about them. The only thing holding up the GA is a few more references, especially under "Origins" and for any new unreferenced material. Xtzou (Talk) 19:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well I just added a bucket of sources to "Origins". Seems well sourced now. I thought the library was open later, but it is about to close, so I'll be offline for a few hours at least. Grr, it also means I don't have time to browse the interesting reference books I found. Ah well. Pfly (talk) 00:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I've added more references throughout. It seems like everything is pretty well sourced, although I'll continue checking. There are some paragraphs that touch on multiple ideas and have just one footnote at the end--in those cases the note applies to the entire paragraph. Any cases where the ref ought to be repeated within a paragraph? Also, the "Significance" has a "lead" paragraph with no references--it's intended to be like an article's lead: it is just a summary of the sections made points, which are detailed below with references. Pfly (talk) 05:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Xtzou (Talk) 15:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Additional comments, Part II
- I know that you have worked very hard on this article, so I hesitate to express any criticism. My suggestions now have to do with the article organization. Under Origins, the United States is a relatively short section. Under Boom years, the section American ascendancy is short. However, under Diversification and transformation, the section American methods and strategies is huge. Any chance that some of the info in this huge section would fit under the other two short ones?
- Also, the section Hudson's Bay Company is huge, and either needs subsections or some of the info moved to a daughter article.
- The article remains fascinating to read, but perhaps it is getting over detailed (I'm not sure) and daughter or sub articles would help out.
- Also, the writing is high quality and the referenced problem appears to be fixed. But you probably should have a Bibliography for the books used as references, as it is difficult to ferret them out. For example, what is the reference Otter Skins, Boston Ships, and China Goods?
Xtzou (Talk) 15:00, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Final comments, hopefully
- I have added a couple of heading as trial balloons. To me, having such headings make all the difference. If you don't like the ones I added, perhaps you could add others that would function better. I think the article is good to pass GA. Xtzou (Talk) 16:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, that's work fine! I was thinking you were suggesting a major cut of the Hudson's Bay Company subsection(s), and was pondering how to do it but also have not had any time lately. Sorry for poking and then not having time. In any case I will add a "Works cited" or "Bibliography" section with the major books listed, to make the references easier to find. Pfly (talk) 18:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- The article has more information than I can absorb easily. It is an eyeopener. If you are considering taking it to FAC, please go to peer review first, as the standards are different than for GA. This is an article I will read over and over. Regards, Xtzou (Talk) 20:32, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- A. Prose quality: Clearly written; grammatically correct
- B. MoS compliance: Complies with basic MoS
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources: Reliable sources
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: Well referenced
- C. No original research:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects: Sets the context broadly
- B. Focused: Remains focused on the general topic
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail: Pass!
A wonderful article. Congratulations! Xtzou (Talk) 20:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Supplementary review[edit]
These are mostly nit-picky things found in a very interesting article.
Map captions
- Some editors prefer "about" to "c." because not all readers know what "c." means.
- Makes sense, did it. Is "about" preferable over "approximately"?
- "From 1743 to the founding of the Russian-American Company in 1799 over one hundred private fur trading and hunting voyages to North America, which in total garnered over eight million silver rubles." - Word(s) missing?
- "... he spent a month in Nootka Sound, during which time he and his crew traded with the Nuu-chah-nulth from the village of Yuquot" - Delete "time" since "month" already covers this.
- Had to read it twice to see it made sense. Good one.
- "Later, after Cook had been killed in Hawaii, the expedition visited Canton... ". - Wikilink Canton to Guangzhou?
- It was linked earlier, but much earlier, so yea, linked.
- Ah, missed it. I usually don't link things more than once in the main text and once in the lead, and for things like United States or England, certainly not more than once overall. This is a long, complicated article, though, so maybe twice for Canton is OK. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah you convinced me and I just took out the second link. I did link some things more than once on this page--sometimes it seemed appropriate or useful (and other editors have added multiple links here and there). Canton though, doesn't seem like it needed multiple links. Pfly (talk) 05:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, missed it. I usually don't link things more than once in the main text and once in the lead, and for things like United States or England, certainly not more than once overall. This is a long, complicated article, though, so maybe twice for Canton is OK. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- "the exclusive right to British trade on the entire western coast of the Americas from Cape Horn to Bering Strait and for three hundred leagues out into the Pacific Ocean." - Should "leagues" also be expressed in miles and kilometers?
- Doh, of course. Linked League (unit) and gave miles and km. Must be "approximate" since "league" is not fully standard, and might have been nautical or land based, I think. I almost added this zone to the global map, but it seemed overkill (and would have been tricky to do anyway).
- "and the first woman known to have sailed, openly as a woman, around the world" - "Openly as a woman" seems repetitious. Isn't this covered by the phrase "known to have sailed"? Maybe just "and the first woman known to have sailed around the world"?
- That makes sense, but apparently there was at least one, perhaps several other women who were known to have sailed around the world before Frances--just that when they did they were disguised as men--only later was it known about, but still before Frances's time. The details are in the source cited. That's why it says "openly as a woman". And, hmm, the "first woman known to have sailed" bit is supposed to indicate that there might have been others before her we don't know about, but who "sailed openly as a women". Make sense? But yes, an odd combination of phrases. Perhaps we could lose the "first known", making it just: "the first woman to have sailed, openly as a woman, around the world"? Or would it be better to actually explain it like I just did. Seems rather tangential though.
- Maybe "the first woman to have sailed, undisguised as a man, around the world"? The word "openly" carries a hint of something anatomical that is not intended. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Heh, I hadn't thought about it like that. Actually I borrowed the phrase "openly as a woman" from the source used. Anyway, just reworded the passage. Rereading that source shows that two woman were before Frances, one disguised as a man, the other a stowaway (the captain, her husband, was in on it--basically taking her along but trying to keep it a secret). I decided to simply mention these two. One has a WP page anyway, Jeanne Baré. Pfly (talk) 05:56, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe "the first woman to have sailed, undisguised as a man, around the world"? The word "openly" carries a hint of something anatomical that is not intended. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Spain rejected both claims; the true facts of the matter have never been fully established." - Would it be helpful here to add a phrase here making clear why Spain was involved? Maybe, "Spain, which sought control of Nootka Sound, rejected both claims... "? Or something like that. This is all explained in the next paragraph, which might have to be revised slightly to avoid repetition if you add something here.
- I've added more about Spain and Russia in the section's "lead", and a mention of Nootka Sound. I'll have to read again, more fully, to get a sense of whether more needs to be said about Spain here. Actually, I would like to add more about Spain in general--there were a few Spanish attempts to join in the fur trading system. Quadra was into the idea. It was hard to figure out how to add such info--there are already so many threads, I fear making a tangled mess. But hmm, if nothing else your suggestion of "Spain, which sought control of Nootka Sound, rejected both claims" sounds just fine.
- Unlink Nootka Crisis in the last sentence of this section since it is linked earlier in the same section?
- Righto.
- Link Cape of Good Hope?
- Yep.
- "The arrival of the Columbia at Boston was celebrated for being the first American circumnavigation of the world." - This needs a source even if covered by the ref at the end of the paragraph. Otherwise, it's almost certain to be challenged.
- Heh..isn't that common knowledge? :-) Will do. Just need to figure out *which* source. I'm sure I have one around here *somewhere*..
- In general, the article might be a bit undersourced rather than oversourced. This particular claim jumped out at me because it's so clearly extraordinary. I have sometimes oversourced things and had to remove some of the redundant citations, but this is a much easier thing to do than to track down sources from library books that have been returned. In general, I try to source as I go, citing at least one source for every paragraph (except the lead) in the article, as well as sources for statistics, direct quotes, and any claim that is apt to be challenged. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh hey, I was joking. Always had the impression that in Oregon the tale of Gray and the Columbia was drilled into schoolkids from an early age. :-) Anyway, added two sources, both older and interesting for being uncommon, I think.
- In general, the article might be a bit undersourced rather than oversourced. This particular claim jumped out at me because it's so clearly extraordinary. I have sometimes oversourced things and had to remove some of the redundant citations, but this is a much easier thing to do than to track down sources from library books that have been returned. In general, I try to source as I go, citing at least one source for every paragraph (except the lead) in the article, as well as sources for statistics, direct quotes, and any claim that is apt to be challenged. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- The last paragraph of this section needs a source.
- I think I'm just going to take out that last bit for now. It should be better written and researched. I probably got one or two company names wrong anyway. Don't remember where I found the names. The text works without it. I'd like to describe the American companies a bit, but need to do some research, which may or may not be easy. So, for now, best left unsaid, I think.
- Oop, just realized I still need to source the text I didn't cut. Will do.
- Done. Added a bunch of refs, took out a few less notable names. Also took out the vessel names as captains and ships did not always stay together. Perhaps someday I'll add another bit about "notable vessels", as some were famous in their own right, like the Tonquin. Pfly (talk) 18:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oop, just realized I still need to source the text I didn't cut. Will do.
Boom years
- "Its charter was laid out in a 1799 ukase (proclamation) by the new Tsar Paul... ". - Explaining ukase in parentheses is good, but this should occur on first mention of ukase in the "Russians" subsection of "Origins".
Diversification and transformation
- "the Khlebnikov Ranch in the Salmon Creek valley about a mile north of the present day Bodega" - Metric equivalent?
- Sure.
- "Ships sailed from Boston to the Pacific via Cape Horn" - Link Cape Horn?
- Yep.
- "As fur resources dwindled and prices rose, ship captains increasingly concentrated on few key ports of call and stayed longer." - Missing word? Maybe "a few key ports of call"?
- Doh.
The New North West trade
- I'd shorten the head to "New North West trade".
- I have a plan to change the section/subsection structure a bit, and this one's name. Will take a bit more thought though.
North West Coast
- Consider linking tuberculosis and syphilis?
- Sure. Not venereal disease?
Russian America
- Needs a source or sources.
Hope this helps. Finetooth (talk) 03:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah ha, great, thanks, and perfect timing. I was just about to print some of this stuff and try to get back to working on it more. What a crazy weekend this was--total chaos! At least it was sunny and beautiful; PNW summer is ready to GO. That strange ball of fire in the sky has returned with a vengeance. Pfly (talk) 04:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
To do list[edit]
Before I lose my jumbled pile of notes and forget it all, here's some possible things to add someday:
- A "Sea Otter" subsection under "Significance", in which the details of the near-extinction of sea otters can be described a little. As I understand it, the creatures were driven to total extinction through the Northwest Coast, from Prince William Sound to south-central California, where a tiny remnant survived. They survived in some number in the Aleutians and Kurils, and in more recent times sea otters from these places have been transplanted along a few areas of the Northwest Coast, with mixed results. Also, somewhere I read that the collapse of the fur trade--due to a change in fashion and the Chinese trade falling apart during the economic crises of the early-mid 1800s, iirc--probably saved the sea otter from total extinction. Something to research anyway. Seems worth including, as the poor sea otter is central to this whole thing.
- More on Tlingit-Russian relations--mixture of working together and violent conflict. The case of Sitka being destroyed by the Tlingit and re-established only after a major battle is one thing, but not the end of the story. Apparently in 1805 the Tlingit attacked and destroyed Slavorossiya, AKA Yakutat. The settlement had been meant, at one point, to be the colonial capital. After the Tlingit attack it was never rebuilt. The Russians apparently tried, "persistently", to blame the Americans, who had sold guns to the Tlingit, for the attack. Tlingit oral tradition offers a number of different reasons, including the Russian practice of sending (some) Tlingit children to a school at Kodiak, where they were treated, in the Tlingit view, as slaves. There's more on this topic. Info above comes from pages 141-143 of: Russians in North America, Proceedings of the 2nd International Conference on Russian America. Sitka, Alaska, August 19-22, 1987. Edited by Richard A. Pierce. A couple short notes from this source:
- Population at Yakutat is unclear, but estimated as 15 Russian promyshlenniki, 9 settlers with families, a clerk, a blacksmith, and a mechanic. Also 20 kaiury and 15 kaiurki lived at the fort.
- Russian sources do not detail the destruction of Yakutat. Tlingit oral tradition says the attack came when most of the Russians were out to catch fish. The few who stayed behind were killed. Then the Tlingit attacked the promyshlenniki returning from fishing, killing them all. After taking control of the fort, the Tlingit plundered and burned it, taking, among other things, five cannons.
- estimates of the number of Russians lost at Yakutat: Rezanov wrote that of 40 people at Yakutat, only 8 men, 2 women, and 3 boys escaped. The RAC claimed that 14 Russians died along with "many islanders" (natives). It is likely that some of Yakutat inhabitants were taken captive.
- Something on the role of native women of the Northwest Coast in trade. Below is some text I wrote up; source info from: Native People, Native Lands: Canadian Indians, Inuit and Métis, by Bruce Alden Cox. Chapter 13 "Women Traders in the Maritime Fur Trade", by Loraine Littlefield. Pages 173–174, 180–181
- The maritime fur trade influenced the role and power of native women of the North West Coast. The natives of the coast had a sophisticated system of trade that differed from the Western world's system in several ways. In the traditional system of the coast natives there were ceremonies associated with initating trading sessions. Male elders and chiefs were in charge of the opening ceremonies, which usually involved gift-giving and unprofitable trades. The purpose of the gift-giving and ceremonial trading was not to make a profit, but as a means of confirming and maintaining the status of household groups and heir lineages. Once the gift-giving ceremonies were complete, a less formal and more family-oriented trading phase began. During this phase women had a decisive role. They checked the goods, kept track of prices, and generally drove hard bargains in an effort to maximize profits. Many maritime fur traders were frustrated by the time-consuming rituals that first accompanied trade. They had no use for the prestige associated with gift-giving. While many fur traders were forced into gift-giving exchanges, they recorded their dislike for the practice and declined as much as possible. In effect, the maritime fur traders rejected the traditionally male role in trade transactions and placed valued on the traditionally female role, where maximizing profit was the sole criterion. Thus the role of native women in the maritime fur trade was ensured and enhanced. Many fur traders noted the role played by women in trading. As early as in the 1780s traders wrote about Nuu-chah-nulth and Haida women being not only present during trade transactions, but principally in control. Other accounts recorded women playing a similarly active role in trading among the Tlingit and Tsimshian. Manuel Quimper reported the same role for women among the Makah. Other elements that encouraged a greater role for women included the increasing competition between tribal groups brought about by the infusion of new wealth. The maritime fur trade created new disparities of wealth between tribal groups, which resulted in an increasing need for chiefs and their households to validate their status. In order to maintain and improve social status, households had to accumulate more wealth than other households. Some traders noted this competition between different households in trade transactions. Competitive trade aimed at maximizing profits enhanced the role of women in bargaining and monitoring prices.
- A passage on the role of Russian circumnavigation voyages and how they influenced things in Russian America quite a bit. Again I wrote up something on this but left it out for now (needs polishing at least). The source for the entire thing is Circumnavigation, Empire, Modernity, Race: The Impact of Round-the-World Voyages on Russia's Imperial Consciousness, Ilya Vinkovetsky; Library of Congress.
- The links between Russian America and Siberia were weakened in the 19th century due to Russian circumnavigation voyages. Twenty-five circumnavigation voyages were initiated between 1801 and 1825, largely for the purpose of expanding Russia's imperial and commercial influence. They created links between Russian America and the Russia capital at Saint Petersburg, altering the way Russians thought about their empire. Places like Sitka, which had previosuly been thought of as part of Russia's most remote frontier, came to be seen as having better access to Saint Petersburg than the continental towns of Siberia and most of the Russian interior. The colonization efforts in California and Hawaii grew out of the circumnavigation voyages and would have been inconceivable without them. Another effect of these voyages was a separation between Russians and the indigenous people of North America. Travelling to Russian America via Siberia required the assistance of indigenous Siberians and the sibiriaki, or Russians of Siberia. The sibiriaki had a history of living and working closely with indigenous Siberians and were "nativized", or acculturated in many ways. In contrast, the Russians who visited America by sea directly from Saint Petersburg—many of whom were well educated and culturally "European", bypassed the legacy of centuries of Siberian experience. They were far more conscious than were the sibiriaki of the social and ethnic distinctions between themselves and the indigenous people they encountered. While the Russian naval officers did not create a racialist ideology, like some European colonizers, they did introduce new attitudes. For example, miscegenation between Russian and natives in Siberia had been common, even encouraged, for centuries, and the practice continued in Russian America as an ordinary way of life. After the initiation of circumnavigation voyages, however, the children of Russian and indigenous Americans came to be labeled as a separate group—a social category known as kreoly (Creoles). Nikolai Rezanov, a participant in the first Russian circumnavigation, is the first on record, in 1805, to use of the term kreol. By the time of the RAC's second charter in 1821 the Creoles of Russian American were made into a de facto separate social estate, formalized as members of a distinct group of people who were neither fully Russian nor fully native. The creation of the Creole category was specific to Russian America and had no precedent elsewhere in the Russian Empire. In Siberia, legitimate children of Russian and indigenous Siberians continued to be classified as Russians, provided family conversion to Orthodoxy and baptism of the children. The origin of the word kreol in Russia is not known for certain, but it likely came from Spanish and Portuguese colonies frequently visited by the Russian circumnavigators. During the 18th century Russian America was colonized and managed by sibiriaki. Very few Europe-oriented Russians visited. The situation changed in the 19th century. An increasing proportion of the RAC's workforce came to America by ship from European Russia. The sibiriaki were gradually replaced by European Russians, a multiethnic category that included Finns, Baltic Germans, and other ethnicities. Furthermore, after the forced retirement of Baranov in 1818, every chief manager (glavnyi pravitel, in effect governor) of Russian America was an officer of the Imperial Russian Navy, appointed directly from Saint Petersburg. Thus the highest-ranking official in Russian America was always a nobleman with Europeanized education and naval training.
Pfly (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
This article seem to handle the Maritime Fur Trade as a British and North American phenomenon, while in fact it involved other areas and was not exclusively traded by Anglosaxon areas. The lead begins with:
- The Maritime Fur Trade was a ship-based fur trade system that focused on acquiring furs of sea otters and other animals from the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast and natives of Alaska.
This fails to introduce the the reader to the global scope of the trade that did also include part of the Russian Pacific, Juan Fernández Islands and Patagonia. Whiel this is perhaps the main error in the lead, the sections that continues in the article fail to adress the fur trade in South America during the same epoch. I do think that the trade migh have had most impact on the Pacific North West but to exclude other areas afected by the trade would not be fail and would lead to the creation of new articles, while the fur trade of the 19th century was an international phenomenon. Dentren | Talk 19:18, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks. But as the page points out in the first sentence, "The Maritime Fur Trade was a ship-based fur trade system that focused on acquiring furs of sea otters and other animals from the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast and natives of Alaska." Later in the lead it says "The term "maritime fur trade" was coined by historians to distinguish the coastal, ship-based fur trade from the continental, land-based fur trade [of North America]". There are plenty of sources that define "Maritime Fur Trade" this way, and are used on the page. In fact, that is why I capitalized the term, instead of naming the page "maritime fur trade" (although I sometimes wrote the term in lower case--if it would make more sense to always use caps that can be done). It's a proper noun about a specific historic era in a specific region. Also, the page describes the non-Anglosphere aspects of the trade--in China and Russia mainly--in detail. Pfly (talk) 19:12, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Still, Dentren does have a point about the Patagonian aspect, though it's definitely outside the usual maritime pattern....but where did th Patagonian furs go? - across the sea to China, or directly back to Europe or ?? It may even have involved some of the same ships; but the basis and core of the maritime fur trade was specifically the sea-otter, not (at first) any land-based furs; and to my knowledge (and I may be wrong) the sea otter was not present in South America. I agree about the term being a proper name as defined/used by historians; and as Pethick and others point out, there's an intrinsic link also to the Old China Trade article, which does have a USPOV bias/perspective so far.Skookum1 (talk) 19:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I know fur trade in South America was based on the Juan Fernández Fur Seal and the South American Fur Seal. Having read Pfly comments, I have too agree that the North American maritime fur trade deserves an own article due to its importnace and the amount of information in the article. To contrinue improve the topic on fur trade efforts should be put on integrating and cleaning and globalizing the the fur trade article (will move the template to that article). I also think that a South American and Antarctic fur trade article should be created to cover that topic. Dentren | Talk 19:49, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Still, Dentren does have a point about the Patagonian aspect, though it's definitely outside the usual maritime pattern....but where did th Patagonian furs go? - across the sea to China, or directly back to Europe or ?? It may even have involved some of the same ships; but the basis and core of the maritime fur trade was specifically the sea-otter, not (at first) any land-based furs; and to my knowledge (and I may be wrong) the sea otter was not present in South America. I agree about the term being a proper name as defined/used by historians; and as Pethick and others point out, there's an intrinsic link also to the Old China Trade article, which does have a USPOV bias/perspective so far.Skookum1 (talk) 19:25, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Ok, it's later. I tried to write a fairly short reply, but alas, it is a bit long:
I could write about this at length, but will try to keep it short. I probably won't be able to write much again until next week--going camping. The main point is that the Maritime Fur Trade (that is, the "Old North West Trade" or "Sea Otter Trade") was indeed "focused" on acquiring sea otter furs by trade with the natives of the Pacific Northwest Coast. Over the years the traders had to "diversify" in order for the voyages to remain profitable (for reasons explained on the page--overhunting of sea otters and too many traders creating a "seller's market", mostly). The trading voyages were still focused, even defined by their visits to the PNW and trade with the natives for sea otter furs, but "side-ventures" were increasingly taken up, wherever profitable trade could be found. These side-ventures increased in importance over time, but what made a "Maritime Fur Trade" voyage part of the "North West Trade" was the continued visits to the PNW coast and trade with the natives for sea otter furs--although beaver furs eventually were traded in much larger numbers.
In short, there were two key factors that defined the trade. First it involved visits to the PNW coast (and Canton, albeit sometimes via third party trans-shipments). Second, the PNW furs were acquire by trade with the natives. This second point is not quite as important among historians, but it is for a significant number of them. It is one of the main differences between the British and American systems and that used by the Russians--who did not trade with the natives, but rather employed (or "enserfed") them (eg, Aleuts), to hunt sea otters. The Russian method of acquiring sea otter furs was quite different from the British and American method. In addition, the Russians did not take the furs to Canton by ship, but overland to the Mongolian-Chinese border. For many historians these several differences are enough to regard the Russian system as something other than the "North West Trade" or "Maritime Fur Trade", although closely related. Many historians write about the Maritime Fur Trade as a strictly British and American system only, excepting a handful of minor ventures by the French and Spanish (Lapérouse is a particularly notable example of a French venture to the PNW--but his fame comes from much more than just trading sea otter furs). Anyway, my point is that many historians write about the Maritime Fur Trade as something almost entirely British and American. Others include the Russian system, although differing in some ways. So there is already a fairly strong "Anglosphere" focus among historians. I opted to take the broader approach used by historians such as Gibson. But even then the trade was largely "Anglo"--especially when looking at the Canton end.
All that was to explain the sentence: "The Maritime Fur Trade was a ship-based fur trade system that focused on acquiring furs of sea otters and other animals from the indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast and natives of Alaska." The key word being "focused". The trade was not exclusively about these things. But once the American (and later the British) traders abandoned the PNW coast trade, they were no longer part of the North West Trade or Maritime Fur Trade. In many cases the "side-venture" diversification efforts became the new trading focus, once the PNW trade was abandoned. One of the most important of these side-ventures that became the focus of new trading system was sealing.
I admit the term Maritime Fur Trade makes the issue of sealing confusing, since seals are marine mammals that were hunted for their furs. But of the many sources I've gone through on the Maritime Fur Trade, AKA Old North West Trade, sealing was at best a "side-venture". Sealing boomed after the PNW coast trade was abandoned, over vast regions. I know less about the history of sealing, but from what I understand it operated under systems differing in several key ways from the old sea otter trade. Former sea otter traders also turned to whaling in growing numbers, a trade which also boomed. I admit that the history of these large, complex trading systems were inter-related in various ways, and there's no totally clear bright line we can use to separate one "old trade" from another. Nonetheless, unless I've quite misunderstood what I've read, the Maritime Fur Trade is not the same as sealing. This is why I wrote about sealing as part of the "diversification' of the Maritime Fur Trade, along with sandalwooding and other obviously "non-fur" goods, and why the Juan Fernández Islands and Patagonia are not given much weight outside the diversification sections.
More could be said about the Russian sea otter hunting done in the Kamchatka and Kuril Island areas. There's a bit about it on the page, but I have hoped to add a bit more in time. On the other hand, I think it was a relatively minor aspect of the whole. Plus, the Russians did not trade these furs in Canton but rather in Mongolia. The Canton connection seemed more important to spend time and text on. I have also wanted to add a bit about the handful of Spanish attempts. I haven't gotten around to trying yet, but there were only a handful, with very small cargoes, over a few short years.
Anyway, to finish up (damn I wrote more than I hoped to!), perhaps the main issue here is sealing. I can certainly see why one would consider sealing a "maritime fur trade". Perhaps the text could be adjusted to make more clear the difference? Even if sealing were to be considered part of the Maritime Fur Trade,as defined above, I can't imagine trying to add info about it to this page in detail even close to what is already here. The page is already rather long (and should be fleshed out a bit more, making it even longer). Sealing is a huge topic--probably larger than the PNW-Canton sea otter trade.
Ok, I must stop now. I hope this explains things a bit. Would it help if the page spent more text on the kind of large-scale, semi-abstract stuff I wrote about just now--especially the stuff about sealing and perhaps the Russian system being different enough for some historians to not include it as part of the Maritime Fur Trade (or part of it in a tangential way only)? My apologies for the typos I'm sure I made. It's late and I am too tired to proofread. Thanks! Pfly (talk) 10:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
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Gay Republican group endorses McCain candidacy
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"Gay rights issues are a critical part of the equation, but so are many other issues impacting our daily lives—foreign policy, the economy, jobs, energy policy, health care reform, and taxes".
What Patrick Sammon, head of the Log Cabin group is not telling you is that Gay rights come last. It is true, McCain opposed a federal amendment to ban same-sex marriage, BUT…..he recently stated that he believes that marriage is distinctly between one mn and one woman and that marriage is the only relationship wherein children must be raised. He opposed gay couples adopting children. If gay republicans, an oxymoron if ever there were believe that is equality, then they need their heads examined.
The fact that anyone buys what the Republicans are selling amazes me. But I'm astounded that gay Republicans even exist. Not one issue voters? Shouldn't this issue, one's own personal freedom and right to be just as they are, be THE primary issue? Sorry Log Cabin folks, you make no sense.
Gay Republicans…. an oxymoron if I ever saw one.
DW, gay republicans actually believe they can change their party from within. Most of them believe in lower taxes, economic stability, privatisation of all government run programs, do not believe in universal health care (a national health care system for all) and believe that marriage equality is very low, in fact the least important matter in the pecking order of things. They are willing to sacrifice that as long as they can accumulate as much wealth as possible and avoid paying their fair share of taxes or not paying any at all. I often ask them what they would do if they lost all their possessions, wealth, home, job…how would they access health care without health insurance? They can never give me a straight answer but shrug it off saying its merely a hypothetical question yet their leaders get free health care once they retire, for life I might add, at taxpayers' expense. Most of them have never suffered discrimination and many of them hide in the closet and pass themselves off as straight. Their party is notorious for the doublestandard and hypocrisy. If McCain is elected, serves the dumb American electorate right! Four more years of failed Bush policies plunging America back to the top of the laughing stock list, if its not there already!
Free markets (actually domination by unrestrained multinationals), low taxes (especially for the rich), let the poor and the old go hang and devil take the hindmost…Folks of all sexualities can be found supporting this sort of thing on both sides of the pond, but the lgbt ones I know to whom they appeal seem convinced that they can be had without belonging to parties stuffed with social reactionaries and bigots of every kind. Theoretically possible, I suppose, but a lack of economic empathy tends to go with other kinds… A gay lawyer I once knew who was much more Thatcherite than the Iron Lady herself was astonished at the blatant homophobia and racism of the local Tory party he joined – surely a little like being surprised that it rains in Llandudno?
The Log Cabin group – are they fuelled by some kind of sado masochistic desire to be downtrodden and treated like slaves? Or is it just proof that retards are to be found in all communities, including gay ones.
Adrian T, as a gay woman I appreciate the essence of the point that you are trying to make. However, I find your comment to be outrageously offensive. In supporting our own minority community you are insulting another- people with learning difficulties.
You seem to be confusing people who have special needs with those who are ignorant and bigoted. All you are really proving is that narrow-minded, limited people exist in all walks of life, including the gay community. Well done!
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13 reviews | 4.2 out of 5
i can't wait to snatch this up the day it comes out. i rarely do that these days. typically i'll wait till it drops in price or i'll pick it up used somewhere cheap. i was shocked by this movie. i thought it would just be all action and no substance as far as the vampires go (like the horrible excuse for vampire movies in the blade series), but it was actually a very dark, in depth and very stylish take on vampires. the acting was great and i actually didn't mind the CG too much in this. They blend it in well with all the dark lighting. speaking of the lighting, that is what made this movie for me. the usage of shadows and darkness made this much creepier than the actual vampires in my opinion. you get great performances from hawk and dafoe and all the others making an obviously unbelievable story that much more believable. without them, it may have been pretty bad. check it out if you're fans of horror, drama or a good survival movie in general. you won't be disappointed.
Good movie
Although I appreciated the story line, the rest of the movie was really disappointing. I was expecting a lot of action, and there was almost none. Again, I liked the story line, but when you are halfway through the movie and nothing of real substance has happened, no action, and you realize you don't care about what happens to any of the characters, it's hard to watch it all the way through.
Some people may like it, and I can at least understand why, but I didn't want a movie about vampire politics, I expected it to be...well....more.
I watched this movie last night. I'll start with what I liked about the movie. The cure. This was a new twist in the vampire world. Cars moving in daylight with blacked out windows and being driven with the aid of cameras and monitors. That's it. Now, a few of the bad points: Acting. Dafoe and Hawke are fine actors under normal circumstances. I found their performances to be "wooden" in this movie. Since both performances were sub-par, maybe the director is at fault. Who knows? Character development. There was almost zero. Nothing in the script made me care about these characters in the least. Did anyone else see the ending coming a mile away? I did. If you haven't bought this already, rent it first.
this is a wonderful movie staring ethan hawk who is a wonderful actor
this movie was recommened by a friend and it was worth the purchase, but only if you like vampire movies!!!
Makes you think about what could actually happen if the world was overrun by vampires
This movie is different from the Vampire movies that I have seen. Great!
Good horror movie with some humor thrown in.


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On this day: January 4
POSTED: 6:04 PM Jan 03 2013 UPDATED: 2:00 AM Jan 04 2016
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Billboard publishes its first music chart, Sputnik falls to Earth, The Beatles record together for the last time, and Nancy Pelosi becomes the first female speaker of the House, all on this day.
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It looks like Texoma will have a dry and seasonably cool Christmas 2013.
Santa will have a clear and chilly ride to your place Christmas Eve with overnight lows in the mid to upper 20s, which is typical Texoma cold for late December.
Christmas Day will be sunny to partly cloudy and mild with highs in the 50s. Highs are expected to rise into the 60s by Friday while nights will remain seasonably cold in the lower 30s. If you're driving anywhere across Oklahoma, Texas or adjacent states the weather should be quiet through Friday…but take your coat!
The next significant weather system arrives early next week (Sunday) in the form of another Canadian cold front as shown on the map below:
Sunday 6 a.m. 29 Dec 2013 surface forecast / GFS model
Merry Christmas!
Steve LaNore
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Oh he SO stinkin cute! Looks like a mini clydesdale with all that chrome. Love him!!
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Oh he SO stinkin cute! Looks like a mini clydesdale with all that chrome. Love him!!
A little background on my little guy. He was born 5 weeks early and has been a very sick little boy. He had abd surgery at one month of age and almost died at that time. His lungs do not function well and he can't play like normal kids his age without getting out of breath and coughing to the point of vomiting. He LOVES all animals, so this summer, I bought him 72 peeps. Almost all of them lived, so we now have 70 chickens running around for him to pet and play with. Ryan also adores horses. This child has no fear! When we brought Deka (the pony) home for Christmas, Ryan was happy just to have another horse on the farm. It was too cold to let Ryan ride yesterday (we did Christmas on Christmas eve), but Friday is going to be nice, so we're going to let Ryan ride Deka then. For Christmas, Ryan got a saddle, bridle, halter, leathers, stirrups, a show and a schooling helmet, a show outfit, and a child-size grooming box. He also got about 100 other toys!! I went over-board, but I feel so bad for him that he can't be a "normal" child. His first year of life, he ended up in the hosptial almost monthly. As he's gotten older, he's not quite as frail, but he's still limited physically. Not only did I want fancy (this pony has a LOVELY head...just fuzzy right now), but I wanted SAFE. It is really hard to find small, fancy, quite, and loves kids. Deka is the whole package, so I lucked out!!
So, that is the background on WHY I spent two month's wages on a Christmas present.
To Good Pony Mom.
You did good. Really good.
How adorable! That would have been my dream Christmas. :)
Absolutely adorable. Waiting impatiently for picture of little boy on little pony. :-)
That looks like a very nice pony. Good call on going for a well bred pony :yes:, they can be so awesome just as a buddy for a child.
Adorable, can't wait to see photos of the first ride!
so now starts the hunt for a little boys hunt coat ... and toddler size TS's and a very cute tie with ponies jumping on it and baby size paddock boots , oh wait he's not my pony kid, darn I would have had so much fun shopping , They are sure ot be a hit at Devon..
Oh, how wonderful. I love the pony, and can't wait to see pics of your son enjoying her.
That much cuteness must be illegal! And we need more pictures!!
I think you bought you a pony!
that face!! so cute!!
Totally cute. Looks like a perfect match!
Adorable. Merry Xmas!
Dear Pony Mom
I totally understand! GOOD JOB! ditto on the Welsh choice
Love, Pony Grandma
and then you can go for broke and embarrass them later in life http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/j...s/100_0875.jpg
Love these pictures, Pony Grandma , girl adore your get up for xmas :)
leadline is a perfectly justifiable reason for having children. :) Cutest. Pony. Ever.
Congrats on your adorable little pony!! I too got my 3 1/2yr daughter her first pony this Christmas as well....I've been dreaming of this day long before she was ever born!
What type of leadline saddle leathers and girth did you get? I just got the wintec leadline saddle package...I can't really figure out if I've put the webbers/leathrs on correctly bc they appear to be too long?? They are designed to go with this leadline saddle...but maybe I just don't have them on properly?
Any suggestions/recommendations greatly appreciated! Thanks


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When I pop open and drink bottles I find in bushes, people gasp and scuttle away in horror. Yet it's cause for celebration when we virtually get together with pals to drink cyber bushbeer. Go figure. The point is: steampunk countryside survive 'em up Sir, You Are Being Hunted [official site] has finally added multiplayer.
RPS co-founder Jimmy Ro-ro is one of the folks behind Sir, I should of course mention, but I've only met him a few times myself and certainly never when sober so I couldn't tell you much about him. He's shorter than me, and I don't care about the rest.


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, Volume 576, Issue 1, pp 39-48
First online:
The recent spread of Artemia parthenogenetica in Western Australia
- Kellie McMasterAffiliated withSchool of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia Email author
- , Alan SavageAffiliated withSchool of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia
- , Terrie FinstonAffiliated withSchool of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia
- , Michael S. JohnsonAffiliated withSchool of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia
- , Brenton KnottAffiliated withSchool of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia
Rent the article at a discountRent now
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In Western Australia, populations of Artemia parthenogenetica in coastal salt lakes at Rottnest Island and Lake Hayward, and in salterns at Port Hedland and Shark Bay, are widely accepted to have been introduced by humans. Further, within the past 10 years, populations of A. parthenogenetica have been found in inland playa salt lakes in the wheatbelt of south-west Western Australia, where none had been recorded in previous salt lake studies. Here we hypothesise that birds act as transport vectors for Artemia cysts both within Australia and between the Asian and Australian continents. Allozyme analysis was used to identify clonal types (multi-locus genotypes), clonal frequencies, genotypic diversities and genotypic identity of six populations (three coastal, three inland).
Overall, the inland populations displayed almost identical genotypic structure to the coastal population from Lake Hayward, indicating that Lake Hayward could be the major source for dispersal and colonisation of inland populations. Results support the hypothesis of dispersal inland by nomadic bird species. Furthermore, evidence suggests that the inland and Lake Hayward populations may be an example of a metapopulation.
The greater variety of genotypes present in the Rottnest population indicates that this population has received a large number of small immigrations, or that it received one large introduction. The former may indicate a long period of suitable salinities, providing a greater time-span over which migration and succession of clonal types could occur in comparison to other populations. While we cannot rule out the possibility of human introduction of A. parthenogenetica to Rottnest, the hypothesis of cyst dispersal along the Austral-Asian flyway remains possible.
KeywordsClones Genotypes Immigration Secondary salinisation
Reference tools
- Title
- The recent spread of Artemia parthenogenetica in Western Australia
- Journal
Volume 576, Issue 1 , pp 39-48
- Cover Date
- 2007-02
- 10.1007/s10750-006-0291-0
- Print ISSN
- 0018-8158
- Online ISSN
- 1573-5117
- Publisher
- Kluwer Academic Publishers
- Additional Links
- Topics
- Keywords
- Clones
- Genotypes
- Immigration
- Secondary salinisation
- Industry Sectors
- Authors
- Kellie McMaster (1)
- Alan Savage (1) (2)
- Terrie Finston (1)
- Michael S. Johnson (1)
- Brenton Knott (1)
- Author Affiliations
- 1. School of Animal Biology, The University of Western Australia, 35 Stirling Highway, 6009, Crawley, Western Australia
- 2. P.O. Box 56, 6516, Jurien Bay, Western Australia


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CodeChat Bonus Episode - Olivier Bloch (OSCON)
- Posted: Jul 29, 2014 at 9:04AM
- 9,094 views
- 3 comments
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In this special episode, I interview Olivier Bloch from MS Open Tech about the geeky, gadgety stuff he plays works with all day and about the great interoperability of Microsoft platforms and the many open source tools, frameworks, and services out there. You can tell Olivier is excited about this stuff!
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This is exciting stuff. I hope the Windows for Arduino supports .NET later on.
a moment ago, JK21 wrote
This is exciting stuff. I hope the Windows for Arduino supports .NET later on.
@JK21: Have you played with Netduino?
Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.


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Clinical-Style Validation, Regulation, and Quality Control...
Co-Sourcing Improves Pharmaceutical Laboratory Productivity
Capitol Hill Critics Second-Guess Agencies Using...
Researchers Now Have a Myriad of...
Exome arrays present a cost-effective approach for studying large sample sizes in search of common variants. [© WavebreakmediaMicro - Fotolia.com]
Sequencing seems cheaper by the day, so much so that it's increasingly rare that scientists set out to do genetic and genomic research using arrays. However, given the availability of new and improved products and experimental approaches, some researchers are—preferentially—choosing chips.
The technology that was slated to make microarrays obsolete has actually helped make them better. Case in point: new exome arrays, like those available commercially from Affymetrix and Illumina.
The sensitivity and specificity reported for such chips could not have been possible without extensive sequencing work, which greatly informed their design. Considered an intermediate between standard genotyping arrays and exome sequencing, exome arrays present a cost-effective approach for studying large sample sizes in search of common variants, down to the singleton level.
"Exome arrays are a cost-effective way to study protein-coding variation and its contributions to disease," says Goncalo Abecasis, Ph.D., professor of biostatistics at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. "Most protein-coding variants are too rare to examine with standard GWAS [genome-wide association study] arrays—even after imputation—and, while exome sequencing should provide a more complete look at these rare coding variants, it is still significantly more expensive."
Dr. Abecasis is one of several scientists from a handful of institutions working collaboratively to design and evaluate exome arrays. They're basing this work on published variants derived from past sequencing studies involving more than 12,000 individuals.
"I see exome arrays as bridging a gap between genotyping-based association studies of common variants and sequencing-based studies of rare variants," Dr. Abecasis says. "Studies that aim to survey protein-coding variation in very large numbers of individuals are very well-suited for exome arrays," he adds.
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine's Karen Mohlke is using these chips for such a study. Along with her colleagues, Mohlke, Ph.D., associate professor of genetics, is examining exome array data from thousands of individuals in search of low-frequency coding variants associated with metabolic traits.
In a February Nature Genetics paper, Dr. Mohlke and her colleagues identified low-frequency coding variants associated with fasting proinsulin concentrations at the SGSM2 and MADD GWAS loci as well as three new genes—TBC1D30, KANK1, and PAM—associated with fasting proinsulin or insulinogenic index in a cohort of 8,229 nondiabetic Finnish men. A corollary conclusion accompanied the researchers' results: "This study demonstrates that exome array genotyping is a valuable approach to identify low-frequency variants that contribute to complex traits," Dr. Mohlke et al., wrote.
"We did expect a large sample size would be needed to see any significant evidence of association with low-frequency variants," Dr. Mohlke tells GEN. "The low-frequency variants had not been looked at previously in genome-wide association studies, and some of those could not be imputed well, even from 1,000 Genomes-based reference panels, so there was certainly an opportunity to see new associations."
Genotyping array analysis is fairly straightforward, giving users an edge over examining raw sequence data for certain studies.
Further, the researchers chose to use exome arrays in part because they cost less. The chips, Dr. Mohlke says, proved "cost-effective, compared to sequencing, at the time we were doing this study."
And today? "I think still it is cost-effective for analyzing low-frequency variants, at least the ones that are known," she says. "When variants are known and on the array one wants to test, then it is much more cost-effective than sequencing."
But for unknown variants or those associated with an ancestry group not well-represented on exome arrays, Dr. Mohlke suggests taking another approach. While powerful, exome arrays offer "an incomplete assessment of coding variants," she says. "In the long term, sequencing still has the opportunity to identify many more variants."
Michigan's Dr. Abecasis echoes these sentiments. "There are certainly lots of settings where these arrays don't make sense," he says. "As one obvious example, these arrays are no match for exome sequencing when it comes to studying the contribution of de novo mutations and other very rare variants to Mendelian disorders."
Because particularly rare and population-specific variants often do not make the design cut, exome arrays "only represent 70 to 80% of the variation in any one exome," Dr. Abecasis adds.
As a result, Dr. Mohlke at UNC suggests weighing cost vs. array content from the get-go. "If I were studying a population group for which the lower frequency and rare variants were not included on this array I would either add them to the existing array or design a new one, if that were technically [feasible] and cost-effective to do," she says.
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MDMA (commonly known as the empathogen "ecstasy") is classified as a Schedule 1 drug, which is reserved for compounds with no accepted medical use and a high abuse potential. Two researchers from Stanford, however, call for a rigorous scientific exploration of MDMA's effects to identify precisely how the drug works, the data from which could be used to develop therapeutic compounds.Do you agree that ecstasy should be studied for its potential therapeutic benefits?
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text:
TEMECULA: Middle Eastern expert to talk
TEMECULA ---- Rick Amato will broadcast live and an expert on the conflict in the Middle East will give a talk when the Murrieta-Temecula Republican Assembly meets May 6.
In 1977, Jean-Jacques Surbeck, the meeting's guest speaker, helped develop two international law treaties to supplement the four 1949 Geneva Conventions as a legal adviser for the International Committee of the Red Cross. Surbeck now is the executive director of Training and Education About the Middle East, a San Diego-based nonprofit he cofounded that strives to present a balanced view of the Middle East conflict.
Other guests include Celeste Greig, the California Republican Assembly president; Phil Liberatore, a 2010 congressional candidate; and Brad Dacus of the Pacific Justice Institute.
Amato's show is broadcast on KTIE 590 AM.
The cost for members is $15; $20 for nonmembers; and $10 for students 25 and younger or Gold Eagle members.
The meeting will begin with check-in at 6 p.m. at the Temeku Hills Clubhouse, 41687 Temeku Drive. Dinner will be served at 6:30.
To reserve a spot, call Yael at 951-694-9978.


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First, this is a great, simple tool that's made my content management much easier. Thanks!
I have a responsive site in development and all the content pages open from big buttons into a modal window. I'm new to WordPress and it doesn't help that the previous developer created his own theme with the site I'm referring to. I'm sure the answer is simple, but I'm stumped. What do I need to do to get on the clue train and get this great menu to work in a modal window?


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DSC RED HULK by stalkWatch
©2010-2016 stalk
Keep your grabby mits to yourself buddy!! I got enough power to make the Sentry my bitch! and damn your breath stinks! Gamma radiation and cigars? WTF?
He really wants my toothbrush! I like how his jowls are flying open.
Looks like Pitt might be in for the running for the wedding ring!
You don't think they'd be up for sharing?
Cool! I like the touch of green over the red!!
Trying to be artsy and add a bit of classic Hulk color in there. That or maybe it's Christmas in the Marvel U already.
Wow hehe he doesn't look too happy. awesome work
this is really good


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Finding an acoustic amplifier that perfectly captures the natural dynamics of your instrument is easy to find. Since 1992, AER has been committed to the manufacture of acoustic amplifiers for all kinds of applications, and today, they're one of the most respected names in the industry. Throughout this section, you'll discover a wide array of amps for both acoustic guitars and basses. From 50-watt beasts to 200-watt powerhouses, an AER amplifier will bring the best out of your acoustic performance.
So what AER amplifier is right for you? That will depend on your own needs and preferences. For example, if you typically perform in smaller venues like pubs and coffee houses, you wouldn't need anything too colossal. If this sounds like you, then check out the Compact 60-3. Ideal for singer-songwriters who require top-notch reproduction for their instrument and vocal, this 60-watt, 1x8 combo amp is easy to transport, and fully delivers the outstanding tone that has made AER such a popular name in the industry. Now for those who play bigger concert halls, look no further than the Domino 2A. Consisting of more volume and more channels for larger venues, this amp is loaded with 100 watts of power, and will certainly demand the attention of anyone who's lucky enough to hear you in action.
As mentioned, AER also constructs bass amps, and the Amp Three 2x8 combo amp will impress any professional groover. Precise, transparent-sounding and featuring an excellent range of tone-shaping abilities, this small yet rich bass amp enhances the lows and mids of your instrument while providing the necessary strength to make your performance really cut through. Clear, assertive and inspiring, the Amp Three packs some serious low-end punch.
You've written the songs, you've sharpened your craft, and now you're ready to showcase your music for an audience. Before you hit the stage, remember that AER is the go-to choice of many top recording acoustic artists, including David Tanenbaum, Tommy Emmanuel and Martin Taylor. In other words, the faithful acoustic reproduction you deserve can be found in an AER amplifier.


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Political parties are not working
Published: Monday, April 2, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.
Last Modified: Monday, April 2, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.
Candidates brought forward by the GOP and the Democratic parties represent their parties and the special interests that fund them, not you and me.
These candidates must conform to one of the two, usually diametrically opposed, political platforms.
This candidate-selection process gives us fiction-based polarizing campaigns, a failed education system, trillions in public debt, and a tax system for special interests.
Candidates should represent the people who elect them.
That's how the U.S. House of Representatives is supposed to work — members represent the voters from geographical districts within each state.
We should be voting for individual candidates, not a political party.
There is a process that does allow citizen representatives to be selected by the people in their local district.
These candidates are not associated with any political party and will limit themselves to two terms.
Go to www.goooh.com to learn more.
Serving in Congress should be an honor, not a career.
Billy D. Clifford
Austin, Texas
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


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"MAINE.....The Way Life Should Be !!!!!!" Top 5 Page for this destination Maine by ladyanne
Maine Travel Guide: 2,661 reviews and 5,828 photos
Maine ads to the diversity of the American landscape.......there is no other coastline like it.
Unique in it's rocky glacial fingers that stretch out into the vast Atlantic Ocean.
Miles and miles of endless coves, peninsulas, bays and points, rock formations and sandy beaches.
And......to ad to all that are it's tall mountains, and endless lakes and ponds, it's flat areas where the potato industry dwells...etc. etc.
I was born and raised in Maine and my roots are so established there that it almost hurts to be away from it. It is not only a beautiful place in all aspects but it is a way of life.
It's motto "The Way Life Should Be" says it all. The mindset hits you as soon as you cross the bridge from Portsmouth, New Hampshire. You can almost feel the air change instantly and a fresh new revival flows through your veins. Leaving behind your present life as it is and experiencing a life where the basic foundamental truths abide and dwell. Back to Basics....simplicity in all that really matters in Life.
Vacationland was it's old motto....(so much to see and so much to do...from the sportsman, recreational player, adventurer, historical buff, or just a plan old explorer.)....but now many crave it as a place they want to live. Dare to visit it and not be affected.
- Pros:Lifestyle and Beauty of Refreshment and Well Being.
- Cons:Far far away from the maddening crowd..did I say "Con"???
- In a nutshell:THE WAY LIFE SHOULD BE!!!!!
Reviews (48)
Cliff Island is 2 miles long and a 1/4 mile wide. It is home to about 90 residents including lobster fishermen and... more travel advice
This is the old Dodge Farm built on what is now called Patricktown Rd., Somerville, Maine. It is located on Dodge Pond... more travel advice
China Lake is located southeast of Waterville and Winslow Maine...east of Augusta, northwest of Rockland. It is a lake... more travel advice
I guess reading is concidered "a thing to do"....having the time and pleasure sometimes is a rare treat. We all have a... more travel advice
Nightlife (2)See All There is no NIGHTLIFE on Cliff..there is...
Transportation (3)See All ........and more bicycles parked at the...
Hotels (2)See All Find a Cottage to Rent...and you will...
Favorites (10)See All Rockport Harbor, a clear day of blue sky...
Tourist Traps (1)Perry's Nut House, Belfast-Knox, Maine
Travelogues (1)
- 1
Comments (14)
ASailing, fishing, reading, walking - and lobster for dinner ... sounds like heaven. Thanks for sharing - leyle
Wonderful tour of Maine on your pages - great photos/tips. Will return to see more. Ciao, Carol
It looks like Maine has many picturesque harbors--I would love to tour it by water--thanks for sharing all that Maine has to offer,Anne!!
I love driving on all the quiet roads and looking at the interesting farms and houses. I love your photo of the crashing waves on the rocky shoreline!
Great info ! Regards from Portland (again)
The kilns look very impressive. I didn?t realize limestone was a dangerous cargo.
The Maine coast photos you took were so nice. You do love those boats.
So unbelievable. Such a small wonderful world. Please revisit my HP look at the sailboat Shantih then go back to "ride the Heron" link. You will find they are the owners/re-builders of our much loved old boat. They saved her and did such a beautiful job.
When my daughter was a little girl she loved the films about Andre. Very interesting page, thanks.
Hi Deborah. I'm ready to go to Maine. What a great page. Do you have some more to add? The Morning in Maine looks perfect to me. Marcia
ladyanne's Related Pages
Maine Travel Guide
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- "MAINE.....The Way Life Should Be !!!!!!"
- "Multifaceted Maine: New England's Crown Jewel"
- "Maine: Life the way it should be?"
- "Pinetree State"
- "Maine"
- "Mixed Feelings About Maine"
- See All...
- Things to Do in Maine
- Hotels in Maine
- Transportation in Maine
- Nightlife in Maine
- Restaurants in Maine
- Shopping in Maine
- Warnings and Dangers in Maine
- See All...
"Go Ireland or Bust"
- Member Rank:
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Have you been to Maine?Share Your Travels
Latest Activity in Maine
- updated a Maine Travel Page "MAINE.....The Way Life Should Be !!!!!!"
- Posted in Travel Maine Forum "RE: where to get fresh caught..."
- Uploaded a Photo to "Visit "Andre the Seal" Sculpture, Rockport Harbor."
- Wrote a Review Cliff Island, Casco Bay, Maine in Maine Off The Beaten Path
- Commented on one of seagoingJLW's Maine travel pages
Photos in MaineSee All Photos (94)
Top 10 Pages
- Ireland Intro, 27 reviews, 91 photos, 5 travelogues
- Top 5 Page for this destination Maine Intro, 48 reviews, 52 photos, 1 travelogue
- County Kerry Intro, 13 reviews, 38 photos
- Top 5 Page for this destination Dingle Intro, 17 reviews, 33 photos, 1 travelogue
- Rockland Intro, 17 reviews, 24 photos, 1 travelogue
- Top 5 Page for this destination County Donegal Intro, 15 reviews, 25 photos, 1 travelogue
- Portland Intro, 13 reviews, 21 photos, 1 travelogue
- Top 5 Page for this destination Cooperstown Intro, 10 reviews, 13 photos
- Top 5 Page for this destination Park City Intro, 7 reviews, 12 photos
- Top 5 Page for this destination Donegal Intro, 5 reviews, 10 photos


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text:
Does it come in premesured tubes such as albuerol? I currently have teardrop bottles of mucomyst whih requires me to insert a needle to withraw the amount same as albuterol and insert theneedle fluid into the nebulizer.
Answers (1)
13 Oct 2010
Mucomyst is available in rubber stoppered glass vials containing 4, 10, or 30 mL. The 20% solution may be diluted to a lesser concentration with either Sodium Chloride for Injection, Sodium Chloride for Inhalation, Sterile Water for Injection, or Sterile Water for Inhalation. The 10% solution may be used undiluted.
Mucomyst does not contain an antimicrobial agent, and care must be taken to minimize contamination of the sterile solution. If only a portion of the solution in a vial is used, store the remainder in a refrigerator and use for inhalation only within 96 hours.
Further Information
- Mucomyst Information for Consumers
- Mucomyst Information for Healthcare Professionals (includes dosage details)
- Side Effects of Mucomyst (detailed)
Search for questions
Still looking for answers? Try searching for what you seek or ask your own question.
Similar Questions
Mucomyst - how should this be taken and the dosage for adults?
1 answer • 25 Nov 2009
Can Mucomyst given orally cause the loss of taste and smell?
1 answer • 14 Feb 2010
Do You mix a bronchodilator with the mucomyst to give for inhalation?
My mother has a trach and is using albuterol with treatment and they are wanting to had mucomyst.
1 answer • 20 Aug 2010
What about the use of mucomyst in depression?
just prescribed this med in conjunction with an MAOI... can find no data supporting changes in the brain???
1 answer • 9 Nov 2010
Why can't we find Mucomyst or similar NAC in US over the coulter?
I am asking about serious side effects... Both my husband and I suffered bouts of cough for 10 days. OTC we got Mucinex D (after using other cold ...
2 answers • 10 Dec 2013


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John Brown, Still Controversial at 200
Only Available in Archive Formats.
Brian Mann of North Country Public Radio reports on the controversy that still surrounds the life of abolitionist John Brown, who was born on this date 200 years ago. Brown was hanged in 1859, after he and his sons attacked the federal arsenal at Harper's Ferry.
Please keep your community civil. All comments must follow the NPR.org Community rules and terms of use, and will be moderated prior to posting. NPR reserves the right to use the comments we receive, in whole or in part, and to use the commenter's name and location, in any medium. See also the Terms of Use, Privacy Policy and Community FAQ.


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No Taxation Without Representation! A Field Guide to Voter Suppression
Looking for some reading to keep you busy before it's time to fire up the grill today? Well, we've got your "no taxation without representation" package right here.
- First off, you can read "The Dog That Voted," my piece about the Republican campaign against voter fraud and how it suppresses the vote among the young, the poor, and the non-white.
- But there's more! Click here for a chart pack about voter suppression efforts. The one on the right illustrates the key fact that lots of middle-class voters simply aren't aware of: lots of people don't have photo ID. And if you have to procure photo ID first, you're just less likely to vote than someone who already has it. Needless to say, Republican strategists are well aware of this.
- Jaeah Lee has a short primer on electronic voting machines.
- And finally, you can read my solution to the whole voter ID problem. Seriously. It would work. The downside is that I can almost guarantee you won't like it, but keep an open mind, OK?
Happy Fourth of July!


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Just click the link, freaking hilarious:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... vail1.html
There's 5 different pictures, look at the bottom of the first one.....
Just click the link, freaking hilarious:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... vail1.html
There's 5 different pictures, look at the bottom of the first one.....
hahah ... thats hilarious
Why'd it have to happen to a guy... as opposed to some hottie.
Also... if it were a female, would these pics be blurred out?
Cleveland spelled backwards is DNA Level C
another AA/AS original.
Both excellent points MJG.Originally Posted by MeetJoeGreene
The photos suggest some "shrinkage" seems to have taken place (of the costanza type, no offense intended 2k1!), no blurring out needed in this case.Originally Posted by MeetJoeGreene
I wonder what exactly he was doing just before he fell?
Moral of the story: Keep both hands on the chair lift when ascending!
We got our "6-PACK" - time to work on a CASE!
Or keep one tongue on the chairlift. That would hold your weight, no problem.Originally Posted by SanAntonioSteelerFan
1 CB Vernon Hargreaves Florida 5-10 204
2 DT Austin Johnson Penn State 6-4 314
3 SS Jeremy Cash Duke 6-0 212
4 LB Jaylon Smith Notre Dame 6-2 223
6 WR Moritz Boehringer Germany 6-4 227
7 OT Brandon Shell South Carolina 6-5 324
7 RB Tre Madden USC 6-0 223
DE David Onyemata, LB Ian Seau, FS Jordan Lomax, CB DeAndre Elliott,
QB Jeff Driskel, TE David Morgan, OG Spencer Drango, OC Mike Matthews
2015 MNF Executive Champion!
Hehehe I was thinking the same thing. This man will be scarred for a while...sucks to be him.Originally Posted by SanAntonioSteelerFan
ours is not to wonder why just invert and multiply...
You think he'll be scarred? LMAO, think of all the children that were exposed to that, one of which I believe was his own according to the article....Originally Posted by costanza2k1


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