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Moving Pictures (Rush album)
|Moving Pictures
|Studio album by Rush
|October–November 1980 at Le Studio, Morin-Heights, Quebec
|Rush, Terry Brown
|Rush chronology
|Singles from Moving Pictures
|Professional ratings
|Review scores
|The Rolling Stone Album Guide
Moving Pictures is the eighth studio album by Canadian rock band Rush. It was recorded and mixed from October to November 1980 at Le Studio located in Morin-Heights, Quebec, Canada, and released on February 12, 1981. Building on their previous album, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures follows a more radio-friendly format and includes several of the band's best-known songs, such as the singles "Tom Sawyer" and "Limelight", the rock radio standard "Red Barchetta", and the instrumental "YYZ".
Moving Pictures became the band's highest-selling album in the United States, peaking at #3 on the Billboard 200, and it remains the band's most commercially successful recording. The album was one of the first to be certified multi-platinum by the RIAA upon establishment of the certification in October 1984, and eventually went quadruple platinum. Moving Pictures is one of two Rush albums listed in 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die (2112 is the other).[3] Kerrang! magazine listed the album at #43 among the "100 Greatest Heavy Metal Albums of All Time".[4] In 2012, Moving Pictures was listed as #10 on 'Your Favorite Prog Rock Albums of All Time' by Rolling Stone.[5] In 2014, readers of Rhythm voted Moving Pictures the greatest drumming album in the history of progressive rock.[6]
The album cover art is a visual pun on the title, and a triple entendre. The first meaning is represented by the movers carrying pictures, with the second by the people watching them who are emotionally moved by the pictures. The third meaning is shown on the back cover, where the entire scene is revealed to be a set for a motion picture.
Work on the album began in August 1980 at Stony Lake, Ontario. "The Camera Eye" was the first to be written, followed by "Tom Sawyer", "Red Barchetta", "YYZ" and "Limelight". "Tom Sawyer" grew from a melody that Lee had been using to set up his synthesizers at sound checks.
At Phase One Studios with producer Terry Brown, they began recording demos. "Tom Sawyer" and "Limelight" were polished in October by playing them live on a warm-up tour and then they started the main recording at Le Studio in Quebec. "Red Barchetta" was recorded in one take, while others took many. There were problems with equipment failures and they finished three days behind schedule.[7][8]
Moving Pictures was played live in its entirety for the first time to open the second set during each show of Rush's 2010–11 Time Machine Tour.[9]
|This section possibly contains original research. (October 2012) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
The opening track, "Tom Sawyer", is one of Rush's best-known songs and a mainstay of their live shows. Lyrics for this track were written in collaboration with Max Webster lyricist Pye Dubois.
The second song on Moving Pictures is "Red Barchetta". The lyrics were inspired by the short story A Nice Morning Drive[10] by Richard S. Foster, first published in the magazine Road and Track in November 1973. Instead of an MGB roadster as featured in the original story, Peart has reported that the car that inspired the song's title is a Ferrari 166 MM Barchetta. Foster recounts the story of how he and Peart finally met in 2007 over their mutual love of BMW motorcycles in an article titled "The Drummer, The Private Eye, and Me".
Next is the Grammy-nominated instrumental "YYZ". The title is the IATA Airport Code for Toronto Pearson International Airport, which is played repeatedly in Morse code (-.--/-.--/--..) at the beginning of the song using a 5/4 time signature, where the dashes (-) are played using eighth notes and the dots (.) use sixteenth notes.
"Limelight" is another perennial radio favourite. The lyrics are autobiographical, based on Peart's own dissatisfaction with fame and its intrusion into personal life. The song contains two self-references: the first, the line "living in a fish-eye lens, caught in the camera eye" references the next track, "The Camera Eye", while the line "all the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players", references the title of the live album All the World's a Stage, itself taken from William Shakespeare's As You Like It.
Side two of the original vinyl release opens with "The Camera Eye", to date Rush's last song lasting longer than ten minutes, a frequent occurrence earlier in their career. Lyrically and musically it is an attempt to capture the energy and moods of two of the English-speaking world's great cities: New York City (first verse) and London (second verse). Although most of the songs on the album were staples of Rush's live sets, this song had only been played on the tours for Moving Pictures and Signals until the 2010–11 Time Machine Tour, during which Moving Pictures was played in its entirety. The title refers to short pieces of the same name in the U.S.A. trilogy of John Dos Passos. Neil Peart has stated that he is an admirer of Dos Passos' work.
The sixth song, "Witch Hunt", opens with faint voices (which Alex Lifeson explained on In the Studio with Redbeard were recorded outside Le Studio in sub-zero temperatures with the band and others shouting in a humorous way) and sound effects produced by a synthesizer, before transitioning into the song proper. It features Hugh Syme, artist for most of Rush's album covers, on keyboards, and double-tracked drums in one verse. "Witch Hunt" would become a part of the Fear series of songs, which includes "The Weapon" from Signals, "The Enemy Within" from Grace Under Pressure, and "Freeze" from Vapor Trails.
The album closes with "Vital Signs", which features a sequencer part produced by an OB-X synthesizer, and shows distinct reggae flavour. Reggae influences in Rush's music were first heard on their previous album, Permanent Waves, and would later be heard more extensively on the band's next two studio releases, Signals and Grace Under Pressure.
Cover artwork[edit]
The album cover is a monument to triple entendre. On the front cover there are movers who are moving pictures. On the side, people are shown crying because the pictures passing by are emotionally "moving". Finally, the back cover has a film crew making a "moving picture" of the whole scene.[11] The album cover was taken in front of the Ontario Legislative Building at Queen's Park, Toronto. The pictures that are being moved are the starman logo featured on the reverse cover of the 2112 album, the famous Dogs Playing Poker painting, and a painting that presumably shows Joan of Arc being burned at the stake on May 30, 1431.
Mike Dixon, one of the movers on the Moving Pictures and Exit...Stage Left album covers, discussed the various people on the Moving Pictures cover with the website 2112.net. The first, Bobby King (seen furthest to the left on the album cover), was a member of Hugh Syme's design team, and is credited for assisting Syme on A Farewell to Kings, Hemispheres and Archives. Dixon explains that King is not only one of the movers, but also the original Starman on 2112 and Dionysus (the nude man) on the Hemispheres cover. According to Dixon, the mover holding the Starman painting is Kelly Jay, singer of the Toronto band Crowbar (Crowbar performed with Rush at the Minkler Auditorium in 1973; an advertisement for this show is seen in the liner notes for Different Stages). Dixon also confirms photographer Deborah Sammuels is the Joan of Arc character and that her relatives are the family on the right. However, this conflicts with information provided in the Rush biography Chemistry, which states "Hugh borrowed friends, neighbours and even his hairdresser's parents."[12]
The film crew shown on the back cover actually shot the scene with motion picture film, and the album's front cover is a single frame from this film. This was revealed to Rush concertgoers several years later, when the still image was projected on a large screen behind the band, and then suddenly came to life as a full-motion film sequence.
Track listing[edit]
All lyrics written by Neil Peart except where noted, all music composed by Alex Lifeson and Geddy Lee except where noted.
|Side one
|"Tom Sawyer" (Lyrics: Peart and Pye Dubois)
|"Red Barchetta"
|"YYZ" (Lee, Peart; Instrumental)
|Side two
|"The Camera Eye
I: New York
II: London"
|11:01 6:00
|"Witch Hunt" (Part III of "Fear")
|"Vital Signs"
- Geddy Lee – lead vocals, bass guitar, bass pedals, Minimoog, Oberheim polyphonic synthesizer, OB-X, Moog Taurus
- Alex Lifeson – electric and acoustic six- and twelve-string guitar, Moog Taurus
- Neil Peart – drums, timbales, gong, bells, glockenspiel, wind chimes, bell tree, crotales, cowbell, plywood
- Hugh Syme – synthesizer on "Witch Hunt", art direction, cover concept and design
- Paul Northfield – engineering
- Deborah Samuel – photography
- Robbie Whelan – assistant engineering
- Bob Ludwig – mastering and remastering
- Peter Jensen – digital mastering and editing
|Canadian Albums Chart
|Billboard 200
|UK Albums Chart
Sales certifications[edit]
|4x Platinum (4,000,000)
|4x Platinum (400,000)
|Silver (60,000)
|"Tom Sawyer"
|"Vital Signs"
Remaster details[edit]
The first pressings of Moving Pictures on compact disc were missing the first beat of "Tom Sawyer" by mistake. This was corrected in subsequent CD releases.[17]
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab issued a Gold CD remaster in 1992 that is currently out of print.[18]
A Mercury Records remaster was issued in 1997.
- The tray has a picture of three fingerprints, light blue, pink, and lime green (left to right) with "The Rush Remasters" printed in all capital letters just to the left. All remasters from Moving Pictures through A Show Of Hands feature this logo, originally found on the cover art of Retrospective II.
- The remastered CD restores all of the original artwork found on the vinyl copy of the album as well as the lyrics, and includes the moving picture of drummer Neil Peart which was missing on the original CD issue.
Moving Pictures was remastered again in 2011 by Andy VanDette for the "Sector" box sets, which re-released all of Rush's Mercury-era albums. It is included in the Sector 2 set.[19]
Moving Pictures was remastered for vinyl in 2015 as a part of the official "12 Months of Rush" promotion.[20] The high definition master prepared for this release was also made available for purchase in a 24-bit/48kHz digital format at several high-resolution audio online music stores. These remasters have significantly less dynamic range compression than the 1997 remasters and the "Sector" remasters by Andy VanDette. Sean Magee remastered the audio from an analog copy of the original digital master, using a 192kHz sample rate. But since Moving Pictures was originally mixed on digital equipment at 16-bit/44.1kHz, no audio above 22kHz exists in the original digital master or any of the remasters, which is why many digital music stores are only selling the album at a maximum sample rate of 48kHz.[21]
Two disc 5.1 Surround Sound release[edit]
Moving Pictures was re-released in a 2-disc 30th Anniversary set on April 5, 2011. The first disc contains the standard stereo mixes of the songs. The second disc, available as either a DVD-Audio or Blu-ray disc, contains all the album's tracks in Audiophile 5.1 Surround and Stereo and music videos for the songs "Tom Sawyer", "Limelight", and "Vital Signs".[22]
The "Vital Signs" music video is billed on the disc packaging as "previously unreleased", although it appeared on the 1985 Rush video compilation Through The Camera Eye and had been aired on MTV and other video outlets since the original release of Moving Pictures.
- ^ Prato, Greg. "Moving Pictures - Rush". Allmusic. Retrieved 24 August 2012.
- ^ "Rush: Album Guide". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 21 February 2013.
- ^ "Rocklist.net...Steve Parker...1001 Albums..". rocklistmusic.co.uk.
- ^ Jeffries, Neil (21 January 1989). "Rush ' Moving Pictures'". Kerrang! 222. London, UK: Spotlight Publications Ltd.
- ^ "10. Rush - 'Moving Pictures'". Rolling Stone.
- ^ "Peart named most influential prog drummer". TeamRock. 3 October 2014. Retrieved 21 August 2015.
- ^ Moving Pictures Tourbook
- ^ "Power Windows...A Tribute To RUSH". 2112.net.
- ^ "Rush.com". rush.com.
- ^ "A Nice Morning Drive". 2112.net.
- ^ "The Rush Frequently Asked Questions on the Internet File". nimitz.net.
- ^ Power Windows. "Power Windows..A Tribute To RUSH: "Mover" Mike Dixon Discusses the Moving Pictures album cover". Power Windows..A Tribute To RUSH.
- ^ "Top Albums/CDs - Volume 34, No. 17, April 04 1981". Library and Archives Canada.
- ^ "Moving Pictures chart position in the US". Billboard.
- ^ "Rush chart positions in the UK". The Official Charts Company.
- ^ "Rush Discography". connollyco.com.
- ^ "Andy VanDette On Remastering 15 Rush Albums". themasterdiskrecord.com.
- ^ Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab
- ^ "Andy VanDette On Remastering 15 Rush Albums". themasterdiskrecord.com.
- ^ "12 MONTHS OF RUSH: 14 ALBUMS FROM MERCURY ERA FOR RELEASE IN 2015". Rush.com. Retrieved 10 July 2015.
- ^ "Rush - new 2015 vinyl and hi-res reissues thread". Steve Hoffman Music Forums. Retrieved 10 July 2015.
- ^ "RUSH: More 'Moving Pictures' 5.1 Surround Sound Remix Details Revealed - Feb. 20, 2011". Blabbermouth.net. Retrieved 2011-02-20.
External links[edit]
- Moving Pictures (Adobe Flash) at Radio3Net (streamed copy where licensed)


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Two friction wheels A and B are both rotating freely at 300 rpm counterclockwise when they are brought into contact. After 12 s of slippage, during which each wheel has a constant angular acceleration, wheel B reaches a final angular velocity of 75 rpm counterclockwise. Determine (a) the angular acceleration of each wheel during the period of slippage, (b) the time at which the angular velocity of wheel A is equal to zero.
Fig P15.34


text:
Cold Shrimp Dip
Total Time
Prep 10 mins
Cook 1 min
A friend's mother used to make this, but with a few tweaks, I made it my own. It can be used as a dip or a spread, depending on how well you puree the ingredients.
Ingredients Nutrition
- 4 cups chopped cooked shrimp
- 2 cups mayonnaise
- 4 ounces cream cheese
- 1⁄2 cup chopped green bell pepper
- 1⁄2 cup chopped onion
- 1⁄2 cup chopped dill pickle
- 1⁄2 cup chopped celery
- 1 dash lemon juice
- salt and pepper
- garlic powder
- Mix cream cheese and mayonnaise in food processor until smooth.
- Process other ingredients.
- Serve cold with chips or crackers.


text:
Graham Cracker S'Mores
27 Dec 2010
|Honey graham crackers
|8 (2 1/2 Inch Square)
|Semi sweet chocolate chips
|1⁄4 Cup (4 tbs)
|8 (Regular / Not Mini Size)
1. Preheat the grill for indirect heating.
2. Cut four 6-inch square pieces of aluminum foil; spray wit nonstick spray. Top each piece of foil with a whole graham cracker. Top each graham cracker with 1 tablespoon of the chocolate chips, then 2 marshmallows. Place another grahan cracker on top, and fold the foil tightly around each "sandwich" to seal.
3. Grill just long enough to melt the marshmallows and chocolate, 7-8 minutes.
Recipe Summary
Cook Time:8 Minutes
Rate It
0 Comments
Graham Cracker S'Mores Recipe


text: A grandfather clock has a simple leadpendulum of length L. One night, the temperature in thehouse is 25.0° C and the period of the pendulum is 1.00 s. Theclock keeps correct time at this temperature. If the temperature inthe house quickly changes to 19.6° Cjust after 11 p.m., and stays at thatvalue, what is the actual time when the clock indicates that it is11 a.m. the next morning? Express youranswer to the nearest tenth of a second. (NOTE: Do not includeleading zeroes before your numbers. A response such as "04 : 07 :02.9" will be scored as incorrect. The proper format is "4 : 7 :2.9".)


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Talk:California condor
|California condor is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
|This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 4, 2007.
|Current status: Featured article
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
|This article refers to a taxon that doesn't have its type locality listed. If you can, please provide it.
- 1 Size of California Condor
- 2 Assessment
- 3 Rarity ranking
- 4 Comments from quick review
- 5 References
- 6 Getting there
- 7 Range Map
- 8 To Do List
- 9 Vocalisations.
- 10 Photo
- 11 Bird of Prey?
- 12 Category problem
- 13 Genetic viability?
- 14 Population
- 15 Chick
- 16 Extreme POV
- 17 California Wildfires
- 18 Requested automated peer review.
- 19 Johnny Cash
- 20 Fix Number in Existence?
- 21 resource
- 22 Age
- 23 Range
- 24 Condor Watch
- 25 Evolutionary History
- 26 22 vs 27 captive individuals
Size of California Condor[edit]
The article states that California Condors "areoutweighed only by the Trumpeter Swan (Cygnus buccinator, up to 17.2 kg/38 lb), and Mute Swan (Cygnus olor, up to at least 14.3 kg/31½ lb. generally heavier than C. buccinator), an introduced species." Turkeys can also outweigh California Condors. Wild turkeys can weigh up to 25 pounds, while domesticated turkeys have been bred up to 85 pounds. PubliusFL 15:57, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Only wild birds count, and the Wild Turkey has a documented maximum of 10.8 kg (23 lb 13 oz) [1]. Just comparison is complicated, however, as the data for the Condor is largely based on captive specimens (note that there's a difference between captive and domesticated birds). Indeed, I've seen stated in a source or two that the heaviest wild California Condor weighed 10.4 kg (23 lb) – although the data must be extremely limited. But on average the Condor is clearly heavier: Ferguson-Lees et al. (2001) puts its range at 8.2–14.1 kg (18–31 lb), whereas the Turkey – owing much to sexual dimorphism – is more variable in size, 2.5–10.8 kg (5 lb 8 oz–23 lb 13 oz) according to the link I gave earlier (the same website has the Condor at a mere 7.0–9.9 kg/15 lb 7 oz–21 lb 13 oz [2], yet still suggesting a higher average than the Turkey). Note that while usually regarded as the world's second largest bird of prey (next to the Andean Condor), a maximum of 10.4 kg would have it outweighed by several Old World species: the Cinereous Vulture (up to 12.5 kg/27 lb 8 oz), Himalayan Griffon (12 kg/26 lb 7 oz), Eurasian Griffon (11.25 kg/24 lb 13 oz), Cape Griffon (10.9 kg/24 lb) and Lappet-faced Vulture (13.9 kg/30 lb 10 oz, captive specimen). --Anshelm '77 23:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
According to my ass the CRC Handbook of Avian Body Masses-Second edition, here is the comparison between Wild Turkey and California Condor:
Wild Turkey : 140 males averaging 7.8 kg, range: 6.1–10.4 kg, 182 females averag. 4.3 kg, range: 3.2–6.5 kg
California Condor: 13 males averaging 8.8 kg , range: 7.9–9.9 kg, 15 females averag. 8.1 kg, range: 7–8.9 kg.
For those old world vulture species you mentioned, here are the averages; Eurasian Griffon: 7.44 kg, Cape Griffon: 8.18 kg, Lappet-faced Vulture: 6.97 kg. No average weight given for the Cinereous and the Himalayan Vultures, just ranges: 7–12.5 kg, and 8–12 kg respectively. These two in my opinion definetley larger than the California Condor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nzoltan1981 (talk • contribs) 11:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC) tell me y i had 7to sleeep
this is easily a B class article and possibly a GA candidate. Priority is high given its conservation status and national identity of species. Anlace 05:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Rarity ranking[edit]
"The California Condor is currently the world's rarest bird of prey." I can think of a more deserving candidate for the title, namely the White-collared Kite Leptodon forbesi [3]. Also, the Cuban Kite Chondrohierax wilsonii [4], Ridgway's Hawk Buteo ridgwayi[5], Madagascar Fish-eagle Haliaeetus vociferoides [6] and Philippine Eagle Pithecophaga jefferyi [7] have been assigned by BirdLife International with smaller numbers than the California Condor population given here; however, these represent the number of the breeding population (i.e. adults), making them in truth more numerous than the condor, which has a breeding population of 44 (as of January 2006) [8]. --Anshelm '77 22:47, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The California Condor can eat up to 21 lbs a day! Often supplying the food for their baby birds. This is one incrediable creature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 00:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments from quick review[edit]
A very interesting article, the product of a lot of work! However, if you want it to be a GA, everything's got to have a reference.
The section on fossils is the least relevant (as it deals with other taxa), and in my opinion should go at the end. Possibly it should be called "Evolution"; definitely not "Taxonomy".
The paragraph on claws needs to be revised in light of the uncertain taxonomic position of the Cathartidae. It's disappointing to some of us for the New World vultures not to be definite relatives of the storks, but it seems to be the current thinking. —JerryFriedman 22:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It looks like the plan is to make the footnotes to Harvard references and have a list of cited works. An example that might help is at Aplomado Falcon (though you don't have to use the caps and small caps). Thus the footnotes to Nielson should look like "Nielson 2006, p. 58"—no title, no publisher. It's an interesting question whether you should use the same method to footnote sources referred to only once, as at Aplomado Falcon, or footnote them to full references. Yet another method, by the way, is to have the first footnote to Nielson be complete and the rest be to "Nielson op. cit., p. whatever". —JerryFriedman 22:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks much better. The next thing, in my opinion, is to put the Web references into the same format. I did one useing the cite web template. They could be in some other standard form, but it gives you an idea. —JerryFriedman 21:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Getting there[edit]
Well done so far - compare with Common Raven and see what you think. I've started with some mundane MOS stuff. I'll give more of a copyedit later. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- OK, see how Taxonomy and evolution section - as classification, latin name and evolution are all intertwined. Many other articles such as Humpback Whale have as well. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- The adult California Condor is a uniform black, with the exception of a frill of black feathers.. - umm..not sure but saying something's all black except for black....? cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that it means that the feathers are flat except for the frill of feathers at the base of the neck. If you can think of a better way to phrase it, go ahead and change it. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 14:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- In general, it's a good idea to finalise content before getting stuck into copyediting; I can't see anything else the article is lacking off hand apart from a taxonomy section. Some bits doo look a bit sparse on refs so I'll pop in a couple of fact tags. If I'm wrong just remove them cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
OK - I made a taxo section - in it can go alternate scientific names, common names, classification issues (touch on stork v raptor etc. as fascinating), then evolution bit as subsection. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Allright, I'm going to work on tracking those sources down and merging evolution into the taxonomy section. Casliber, thanks for your help. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 14:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've slung in a couple of paras on placement -now need to stick in the refs and why (eg DNA etc.) - briefly. Also need osmething on origin of common name Condor - I'll look into this cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Range Map[edit]
Does anyone know how to make a range map? I've noticed that other articles have them, and the condor article could benefit from one. I'd make it myself, but have no idea how. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 19:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would be great - not sure who did it for American Goldfinch. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- User:Ken Thomas did the range map for American Goldfinch. see File:American Goldfinch-rangemap.gif and File:American_Goldfinch-rangemap.gif on Wikimedia Commons. Maybe someone can ask him to make a range map for California Condor. ---184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
To Do List[edit]
Here's what I think needs to be done before it goes for FA:
- –
That one citation for cattle ranchers protesting the Grand Canyon
- –
Range Map
Feel free to add on to the list and if anyone knows how to make a range map, please either make one or tell me. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 13:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- –
As with any scientific topic, metric measures need to go first, with imperial second in brackets (if necessary at all)- MPF 08:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Is the range highlighted on the range map correct? Condors have been roosting near Kanab Utah. And rangers at Bryce nat. park (Utah) and Zion nat. park (Utah)have made sightings.gmur —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gmur (talk • contribs) 05:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- From what I've read, the Utah sightings are still pretty infrequent and are the result of birds wandering from the Vermillion Cliffs site. As they are infrequent and are not the typical range of the bird, they don't appear on the range map; however, if visitations become more frequent, ie. nestings, then the range map should be updated. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ecology and behavior section is a little confusing:
It says:
- "Condors also do not have any vocal cords, so their vocal display is limited to grunts and hisses.[26]"
...but then...
- "...competition to determine a pecking order decided by...a wide variety of vocalizations."
Either one of these is wrong or some further explanation is needed! SteveBaker 20:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Done Thanks for pointing that out. Rufous-crowned Sparrow 23:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Great work here people. If you think it helps the FA chances, I have uploaded a higher resolution and slightly different crop version of my condor photo currently used in the article. It is File:California-Condor3-Szmurlo.jpg.It's not materially different but feel free to use at your discretion.Cszmurlo 02:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Bird of Prey?[edit]
I'm no ornithologist, but are scavengers birds of prey? The article describes them as carrion eaters, while contributers maintain that it is a bird of prey. INTUNEevolution 02:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- There is a lot of debate over what exactly New World Vultures are. For a time, they were considered to be in the same order as all of the birds of prey, and therefore a lot of references, particularly books, include them with the birds of prey and compare them to other birds of prey. Their final placement is still undecided, but being in the birds of prey order is still a possibility. However, generally speaking vultures are currently considered to be separate from the group "birds of prey". Rufous-crowned Sparrow 21:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Category problem[edit]
It seems strange to have a featured article using a red linked Category. I am going to change the category from Category:Birds of Western United States to Category:Native birds of the Southwestern United States hoping that it is a correct category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbiel (talk • contribs) 02:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Genetic viability?[edit]
Anyone know enough to explain how condors can survive genetically if there were only 22? -- Jeandré, 2007-12-04t20:05z
- Well, the Black Robin has rebounded from only 5 individuals (1 female!) and is now at about 250, and doesn't seem to be having any genetic problems so far. That's an unusual case, though, and the condor may well have such problems in the future. Hopefully, if it does, by then we'll be able to fix those problems. Vultur (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- I was chatting with some co-workers about it today at the Raptor Center at the University of Minnesota, and, the 22 surviving Condors were only of four bloodlines. This means that they have a relatively small genetic pool to draw from. So, eventually, they will start to suffer genetic issues, and, will probably die out. There is a chance that some new mutation may occur in the population, creating a new species of sorts. However, this chance is slim to none, as this usually occurs over thousands of years. The California Condor probably doesn't have that long. Just start hoping that humanity can come to the rescue one more time! -Gadriel Amileth (April 11, 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
is there any way that the current population can be included in the info box? I don't know the markup very well. -MBlume (talk) 23:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Why is a photo called condorchick described as the head of an adult condor? 126.96.36.199 (talk) 05:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
- The photo title misidentified the age of the bird. See the discussion here; a move to a more appropriate title has been requested. MeegsC | Talk 08:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Extreme POV[edit]
This article is so biased as to be totally inaccurate. It completely ignores that humans are the sole reason that Condors are nearly extinct. I demand that it be fixed. -188.8.131.52 (talk) 01:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- Umm, have you read the conservation section, with lines like "Significant damage to the condor population is also attributed to poaching, especially for museum specimens,[34] lead poisoning (from eating animals containing lead shot), DDT poisoning,[35] electric power lines, egg collecting, and habitat destruction. "? Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- I demand that you all send me $20. Ken Thomas (talk) 03:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- You may not be aware, but Wikipedia is designed to be edited by anyone. If you can make a better article please do so. Just make sure that anything you add is properly referenced, and that anything you remove genuinely does not belong in the article (otherwise it would be you adding the POV to the article). If you do that you should be fine, but if you make a mess of the article expect it to be quickly reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantisia (talk • contribs) 14:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The article states that they were killed for their feathers to create ceremonial cloaks for a shaman, and another cloak had to be made whenever a shaman died. Sounds like they were hunted pretty regularly for an extended period of time, and the article states that this may be a possible cause for their decline. I do see something that seems inaccurate or unprovable, as well as POV - "If so, this would be the only known species that was endangered by the California natives." I can't confirm that this is what the cite actually says, and it sounds like an attempt to downplay the role Amerindians have had in the Holocene Extinction. Perhaps if the wording was changed to say "the only known surviving species" because California natives certainly contributed to the extinction of many extinct megafauna. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
California Wildfires[edit]
Local news in Monterey County reports that the The Indians and Basin Complex fires in the Los Padres National Forest have endangered the lives of some 50 of the condors. I can't seem to find much to back this up, but if anyone can find information that comes from a conservation society on this, it might be relevant to the article, seeing as how there are already so few birds in existence as it is. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a local ABC link... [9]
Requested automated peer review.[edit]
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Allpigs are pink, so we thought of a number ofways to turn them green."
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Hfarmer (talk) 12:33, 21 December 2008 (UTC) This is in regards to the "citation needed" in relation of "Inyaa" the 2 nd Condor Chick born in Baja California the sorce of the information is Dr. Baltazar Macias;a Mexican Veterinaryan and enviromentalist. member of several NGO an enviromental activist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Johnny Cash[edit]
Johnny Cash actually killed 49 California Condors, which was about half of the entire species at the time. Should we put that in there? MaraquanWocky (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Johny Cash was responsible for a fire that burned condor habitat but I can find no credible claim that any condors were killed. Rsduhamel (talk) 21:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Fix Number in Existence?[edit]
RE: "As of April 2011, there are 394 condors known to be living, including 181 in the wild.[2]" According to the Ventana Wildlife Society, there are 360 in existence (~60 in the wild and 399 living through out the US in captive breeding programs). www.ksbw.com/video/29067242/detail.html. This is a fairly significantly difference. Can anyone find a third source that would verify the one being used now or the one I linked? --Lacarids (talk) 02:09, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Plight of the Condors; Once on the verge of extinction, North America's largest land birds have made a dramatic comeback. To ensure their continued survival, biologists are relying on high-tech gadgets and unusual interventions by Jane Braxton Little SciAm January 5, 2012
188.8.131.52 (talk) 01:29, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I noticed a discrepancy on the lifespan listed in the article. In the summary it states that the lifespan is 60 years citing the second reference, a CNN article. However in the Ecology and Behavior section is states only 50 years with no reference. I found an article on the US Fish and Wildlife Services website that states the lifespan isn't expected to be more then 40 years in the wild and the oldest known condor was 71. It also states that the lifespan isn't known for the California Condor. The article is here: http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/CACORecoveryProgram/PDF%20Fact%20Sheets/Biology%20of%20the%20California%20Condor.pdf
I've never edited an article and I'm not sure that this warrents an edit or not. Can anyone help to fix this? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LordCurzon (talk • contribs) 21:46, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- After poking around a bit and finding nothing recent and definitive-looking, I've changed 50 years to 60, citing both the CNN and the San Diego Zoo refs. Understandably, there's uncertainty about the maximum age of many species, including this one, and some sources suggest the figure may be lower. (The 71-year figure you mention is for the South American species.) Anyway, thanks for pointing out the discrepancy, and welcome aboard! Rivertorch (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
The article list the places where the condor has been reintroduced as if this were their natural range. I'm adding that they were shortly extinct in the wild and then reintroduced into the current range. Rsduhamel (talk) 20:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Condor Watch[edit]
Added a paragraph on the crowdsourcing project 'Condor Watch' to the California Condor Recovery Plan section. Condor Watch asks volunteers to examine motion-capture images from the Pinnacles National Park, in northern California, of California Condors. It is part of the Zooniverse set of projects and is a worthy addition to this article. It has two refs, one of which is to the website itself. The website is advert-free and encourages citizen scientists to take an active part in research and conservation. Richard Nowell (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Removed self-reference and added web refs from Science Daily and Phys.org. These are essentially the same as the original Santa Cruz Uni release, but the new refs also have more content.Richard Nowell (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Added Condor watch External link. There are a lot of External Links! Wiki likes only 2 though. Wikipedia:ELMINOFFICIAL#Minimize_the_number_of_links No obvious solution here though as all links important. Just a thought... Richard Nowell (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
- Expanded CW paragraphs to include examples of Citizen Science and ornithology. Deleted Phys.org ref as no longer needed. I would like CW to have its own little mini-section in the future to explore the project more fully, but realise this might not be what the article needs. I think it does though! Richard Nowell (talk) 08:58, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
- The Condor Watch section has grown to 3 paragraphs (longer than some articles). If no-one minds, I think it would be better to keep it within this article as that gives the subject more relevance and greater readership. Have added some statistics to show its progress i.e. ~8,600 volunteers have taken part.Richard Nowell (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Evolutionary History[edit]
This section needs careful attention by someone with the appropriate professional knowledge, as it contains conflicting information. I've tidied the refs as best I can, as they were in need of it. Is there some contention about the exact evolutionary history that can be settle? Richard Nowell (talk) 10:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
22 vs 27 captive individuals[edit]
Note on the question of whether the captive population in 1987 was 22 or 27 (re these two recent diffs: [10], [11]): I checked the JAvMS reference (vol 23.2 (2009), pp 145-150), and the statement there is that in the 1980s, the "remaining population of 22 individuals" was removed into captivity. This does not contradict the statement that the resulting total was 27, as given by the currently used reference. Thus I suggest the current reading (27) and ref (USFWS) is correct and suitable. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:49, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
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Common Core State Standard
SL.CCS.1/2/3/4 Grades 6-12: An essay of a current news event is provided for discussion to encourage participation, but also inspire the use of evidence to support logical claims using the main ideas of the article. Students must analyze background information provided about a current event within the news, draw out the main ideas and key details, and review different opinions on the issue. Then, students should present their own claims using facts and analysis for support.
Back-to-school list: Tissues, hand sanitizer, H1N1 flu shot
Look for flu-prevention tips, information links and other resources on the paper's website.
H1N1 concerns spread way beyond schools. Try to find coverage of preparations by businesses, government agencies, child care providers and others who could be affected.
Back-to-school news isn't just about illness. Share a photo, ad or article that shows education technology, varsity sports, teen styles or something new in a local school district.
School nurses nationwide may see far more than the usual number of students this fall and teachers may see an above-average share of empty seats. The reason, as you've surely heard, is a strong flu strain that doctors call H1N1 and that originally was called swine flu. It has spread around the country since April, infecting more than 1 million Americans -- including more than 5,000 admitted to hospitals. U.S. fatalities exceed 520.
Public health officials now fear a severe epidemic during fall's customary flu season, when schools and colleges face particular jeopardy because students are in close contact each weekday. Federal researchers and drug companies are scrambling to develop and distribute a specialized vaccine aimed solely at H1N1. Still undergoing clinical trials, it's expected to be available by mid-October -- and sooner for high-risk people such as the elderly and chronically ill. (Regular seasonal flu shots still are recommended.)
School districts across the country stress preventive steps -- hand-washing, shielding sneezes and coughs -- and plan for building shutdowns. In addition, janitors and other staff members are sanitizing doors, handrails, fountains and sinks more often in an effort to limit the spread of any virus. The federal Centers for Disease Control started a "Keep 'em Home!" campaign urging parents not to send sniffling, coughing pupils to school.
Doctor warns: "A lot of people are going to be infected." -- Dr. Harold Varmus, co-chair of presidential Council of Advisors on Science and Technology
School superintendent says: "We basically need cooperation from the families. I can't tell you how important it's going to be if the children are sick and exhibiting flu-like symptoms, not to send them to school." -- Supt. Chuck Suppon, Wyoming Valley West School District in Kingston, Pa.
Campus official says: "We are all learning how quickly it spreads. What we've got to do is deal with the reality of having a lot of sick people." -- Bronson Hilliard, University of Colorado-Boulder spokesman
Front Page Talking Points is written by Felix Grabowski and Alan Stamm for NIEonline.com, Copyright 2016
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Republican convention makes Donald Trump's presidential nomination official this week
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British exit: Voters favor quitting the European Union, an economic-political coalition formed 24 years ago
'Net neutrality' court decision bars 'fast lanes' and 'slow lanes' for different web content
Breakthrough: Hillary Clinton will be the first female major party nominee for U.S. president
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President's week in Asia includes visit to Hiroshima, where atomic warfare began 70 years ago
Bathroom choice becomes a focal point for transgender rights backers and opponents
On to November: Trump vs. Clinton presidential race appears virtually certain now


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On Revolution, Miles and Charlie disagree over stopping to help a boy and his friends. Rachel comes across someone from her past.
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Skip to comments.Ye Shall Be Called the Children of Christ (LDS - OPEN)
Posted on 09/05/2008 3:14:14 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Lesson 16
Ye Shall Be Called the Children of Christ
Mosiah 4-6
By Maurine Jensen Proctor
Children of Christ
Before his death, King Benjamin hoped to help his people make a covenant to become the children of Christ. He said:
And now because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters (Mosiah 5:7).
Since Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and Elohim is our Father, people are often confused by this terminology. In what way is Jesus Christ our father? Joseph Fielding Smith answered that question:
What is a father? One who begets life. What did our Savior do? He begot us, or gave us life from death, as clearly set forth by Jacob, the brother of Nephi. If it had not been for the death of our Savior, Jesus Christ, the spirit and body would never have been united again.
If there had been no redemption from death, our spirits would have been taken captive by Satan and we would have become subject to Satan's will forever.
What did our Savior do? He begot us in that sense. He became a father to us because he gave us immortality or eternal life through his death and sacrifice upon the cross. I think we have a perfect right to speak of him as Father"( Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:177-79.)
Jesus Christ is also the life giver to our wounded and sin-ridden spirits. Without his atoning sacrifice we would be lost forever, unable to enter God's presence. The natural man would reign, and we would be unable to escape the chains that bind us. It is Jesus Christ who heals us, binds our wounds, and takes upon himself our sins. Without the protective cloak of his atonement around us, we would stand naked in our sins at the bar of justice, and be cast off.
Since Jesus saves us from physical and spiritual death, he gives us physical and spiritual life. No wonder his sentiment rings with such clarity, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).
Just as a child takes upon himself his father's name, so do we take upon ourselves our Savior's name. It not only indicates that we are seeking to be like him, but that we are under his protection and love. He will lend his strength in our struggle with sin.
Bruce R. McConkie said, "May I speak of the special family relationship enjoyed by those who so live that they become a peculiar people. Of them it is written: 'Ye are the sons of the living God' (Hosea 1:10). That is, those who gain the high status of a peculiar people are adopted into the family of the Lord Jehovah. They become his sons and his daughters and have him as their father."
Who Is God?
How do we become a son or daughter of Jesus Christ? We begin by seeking to understand who God is. What is he like? If we were to think of the most righteous person we ever knew, is God something like that? Or is he like those other authority figures in our lives-our earthly parents?
In this finite, mortal state, we struggle to understand God's attributes for he is simply so much more than we can conceive. We taste his love, but we don't comprehend it. Our mortal brains cannot leap far enough to take Him in. Yet, we can read something about the prophet's experiences with him in scripture.
Moses, when he was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain saw God face to face and talked to him. "And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?"(Moses 1:3).
Then Moses was shown "the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered"(Moses 1:8). After this magnificent and sweeping vision in which he began to comprehend the glory of God, Moses fell to the earth and said, "Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed (Moses 1:10).
This was a clarifying moment for Moses, because he had edged closer to knowing who God is, and thus knew more certainly who he was. After the Lord gave his powerful introduction to Moses, he claimed him as his own. "Thou art my son." To be truly related, next-of-kin, to this great and glorious God filled Moses with awe and humility.
Just as Moses came to comprehend something about God's attributes in his vision, so King Benjamin urges his people to know God. "Believe in God," he pleads. "Believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend" (Mosiah 4:9)
It is in coming to "a knowledge of God's goodness, his matchless power and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children men" (Mosiah 4:6) that we see ourselves for the first time. We are, as Moses discovered, nothing. We are dependent on him for everything that we are, everything that we have, every breath that we take. We are unprofitable servants. We are beggars. We are in a fallen and carnal state. We are less than the dust of the earth. We are wounded.
Yet that very knowledge can fill us with joy, because it is what draws us to him, the source of healing. We can be forgiven and lifted from the ashes of despair. We can be refreshed and renewed through our Savior. We can be cleansed and refined.
It is more joyful to be transformed through Christ, than believe we are self-made and sufficient. It is happier to see our weaknesses and overcome them, than hide them from ourselves. Nothing tastes sweeter than the atonement or is a more healing balm of Gilead. Only when we understand how much we need forgiveness, can we comprehend the extent of God's goodness and love towards us.
The Joy of Forgiveness
King Benjamin's people knew "exceedingly great joy" because they had tasted of God's love and received a remission of their sins. How can we know when our sins have been forgiven? President Harold B. Lee told this story:
Some years ago, President Marion G. Romney and I were sitting in my office. The door opened and a fine young man came in with a troubled look on his face, and he said, Brethren, I am going to the temple for the first time tomorrow. I have made some mistakes in the past, and I have gone to my bishop and my stake president, and I have made a clean disclosure of it all; and after a period of repentance and assurance that I have not returned again to those mistakes, they have now adjudged me ready to go to the temple. But, brethren, that is not enough. I want to know, and how can I know, that the Lord has forgiven me also.
What would you answer one who might come to you asking that question? As we pondered for a moment, we remembered King Benjamin's address contained in the book of Mosiah. Here was a group of people asking for baptism, and they said they viewed themselves in their carnal state:
"And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth, And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth and all things; who shall come down among the children of men. And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come"(Mosiah 4:2,3).
There was the answer.
If the time comes when you have done all that you can to repent of your sins, whoever you are, wherever you are, and have made amends and restitution to the best of your ability; if it be something that will affect your standing in the Church and you have gone to the proper authorities, then you will want that confirming answer as to whether or not the Lord has accepted of you. In your soul-searching, if you seek for and you find that peace of conscience, by that token you may know that the Lord has accepted of your repentance.
Satan would have you think otherwise and sometimes persuade you that now having made one mistake, you might go on and on with no turning back. That is one of the great falsehoods. The miracle of forgiveness is available to all of those who turn from their evil doings and return no more, because the Lord has said in a revelation to us in our days, "go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth [meaning again] shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God. (D&C 82:7). Have that in mind, all of you who may be troubled with a burden of sin. (Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places, pp. 184-185.)
Retaining a Remission of Sins
Once we have been filled with the sweetness of forgiveness and felt to rejoice in God's love, we must live as new people people who have been born again. Those in this state of refreshment do not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably. They nurture their children well, teaching them the laws of God. They walk soberly and uprightly.
Then, King Benjamin mentions this acid test. If we would retain a remission of our sins, we will "succor those that stand in need of your succor, ye will administer to your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish (Mosiah 4:16).
What? If we would retain a remission of our sins, we must respond to the needs of the poor? It is so easy to think of that as a "going the extra mile" kind of task, after the real work of life is done. (See "Consecration Beckons" currently on Meridian.)
Yet Amulek gives us this additional insight in his sermon on prayer in Alma 34. He lists all the places and reasons we should cry unto the Lord, and then adds, "Behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done these things, if ye turn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need-I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith" (Alma 34:28).
If we would have our prayers answered and retain forgiveness for our sins, we must respond to the outstretched hand of the beggar. How appropriate. King Benjamin has just demonstrated that we are beggars, dependent on the largesse of the Lord. Now, we see, that in turn, in order to receive the full bounty of his gifts, we must respond to the beggars in our lives.
On all threads, but particularly open threads, posters must never make it personal. Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of making it personal. Making a thread about another Freeper is making it personal.
When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun you before hitting enter.
Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.
Thin-skinned posters will be booted from open threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
I would only add that she's moved on from mooseburgers to donkeyburgers!
Yes, even us heretical Mormons are cheering loudly for Sarah, and the new energized future of the GOP. Shocking I know.
Let's see the Golden Tablets!
Question: Why is the BOM copyrighted? You can pick up any Bible and not see one. All you'll see is who published it.
Question: Why has the BOM been revised so many times when it claims to be the most perfect book since it was either an angle (Moroni) who told Joseph Smith what to write - there's several versions on how the BOM was translated from Reformed Egyptia ...?
It's interesting to note that the Bible begins with "In the beginning God ...." and the BOM starts with "I ..."
These questions have been respectfully submitted.
I also had the chance last summer on a trip back to Illinois to stop in the town where Joseph Smith was shot - saw the jail and the window where he was standing. Interesting place/museum. Jane
I somehow lost my first reply, so I'll try again:
If you do see them, please be sure to post the video on You Tube, because you will be the first person to ever see them. (Including Joseph Smith)
Question: Why is the BOM copyrighted? You can pick up any Bible and not see one. All you'll see is who published it.
Question: Why has the BOM been revised so many times when it claims to be the most perfect book since it was either an angel (Moroni) who told Joseph Smith what to write - there's several versions on how the BOM was translated from Reformed Egyptia ...?
It's interesting to note that the Bible begins with "In the beginning God ...." and the BOM starts with "I ..."
These questions have been respectfully submitted.
I also had the chance last summer on a trip back to Illinois to stop in the town where Joseph Smith was shot - saw the jail and the window where he was standing. Interesting place/museum. Jane
Amen, brother. Amen.
VERY interesting point.
Interesting. I'm still trying to figure out whose god God's is. (Hard to make sense of the question.) IOW, if God had to attain to the level of godhood to be God as we know Him, from whom did that godhood to which he was attaining originate???
Dang it. Gave myself a headache trying to get the question out!
Here is one, on the BOM changes.
The mormons copyright everything they can, including Joseph Smith's "Inspired Version of the Bible"
It's interesting to note that the Bible begins with In the beginning God .... and the BOM starts with I ..Well, you have to realize that the mormons believe "As man is, God once was..as God is man may become." To them, the God of this planet was, at one time an "I", and it is believed that Joseph Smith is now the god over his own planet.
So how do they get away with saying they believe the way traditional Christians believe then do a flip and say what they really believe in their books that the average person doesn't read ....
Who was King Benjamin???
I dont remember him being mentioned in the Bible...
This is not meant as a silly question, MagnoliaMS, but if Mr Smith read these golden plates ...
Well, where the heck are they? What do the Mormons say about this?
With the advent of the internet, they are being challenged about the claim more and more.
You can see them label non-mormons "Mainstream Christians" on FR, thus being able to retain their identity as "special" (having the one "true" gospel) and still claim to be members of the greater Christian community.
Also, if memory serves, the ones who claimed to have seen them later recanted.
".....having the one "true" gospel"
Right. So this begs the question: If it's the one true gospel why does it need the Bible to back it up? They're always posting same passages (BOM vs Bible) - to prove a point.
"The mormons copyright everything they can, including Joseph Smith's "Inspired Version of the Bible" "
Let me rephrase:
Lets see the Golden Tablets(c)!
Click on the first link on my post 13 on BOM changes. You remember Benjamin...he's in the book of Mosiah.
Something one never needs to contend with in Christianity.
Thank You, LORD.
Well, heck, yes, we certainly should be ashamed. You Mormons are just SO above doing such a thing, aren't you? You all set such a fine example.
Oh, the hypocrisy.
You remember Benjamin...he's in the book of Mosiah.
Oh, here he is in the Book of Hezekiah, too...
Uh. Nope.
Simply Christians trying to save souls of those who are falling for false teaching.
I'm not a coward — I'm a child of GOD.
Without a wink, I tell you I'm Presbyterian. And I grant you this, NO ONE is snickering; it's too serious a matter.
If you care to debate or defend, let me know. Up to now, I've not got one straight answer from a Mormon.
Oh boy... Mormons (Ok, other than the initial charlatan huckster) are wonderful people but please... use some common sense when discerning what to believe.
Oh Yeah - my chief pilot is Mormon ..... been to Provo and the looks though on those kids frighten me - they have this unhealthy smile when they talk or look at you ... almost something out of a Stephen King (??) book .....
I also think that Joseph Smith got tired of writing .... reason for lifting whole sections out of the Bible. I asked one Mormon how could Reformed Egyptian translate out as King James English - his reply was: It sounded more "Biblical" that way ...
If you're so easily offended there are other, restricted forums, you know.
One straight out question for you:
Did you join the Mormon "church" in your adult years or were you raised in it?
Thanks! I am TOTALLY convinced now.
I saw on TV once a cartoon of 'Jerry' hitting 'Tom' on the head with a frying pan. 'Tom's' head was reshaped into the exact shape OF THE FRYING PAN!!
It too, was a revelation.
Have a great weekend(c).
Good post, AU.
I feel more sympathy for those who were raised in Mormonism from childhood. I can see how years of this stuff would eventually take hold.
Those who were adults and got caught by it, however, I think would be easier to bring back to reality and thereby save their own children from going through the same hellish brainwashing by using more "common sense when discerning what to believe."
Best Regards,
Does Jesus teach that once you are forgiven of your sins, if you are not perfect and sinless from there on in, all your past sins will be lumped together in a big wad and dumped on your head...again?
I'd like to see the actual Bible reference for that. What is the Christian belief here? How about this?
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Forgot the reference in post 38...John 8:1-11
Danger Will Robinson!
Ez 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die therein.
Jesus' teachings?
Ez 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
I don't believe Jesus taught eternal salvation.
Did you just join FR to say that?
No thanks, I don't care to debate our religions. I don't need to because I don't have a problem with your beliefs. I respect you for following god and recognizing Jesus as our savior, and I respect that you love your denomination, in fact, I have even fought for your right to do so. I just wish that you were more tolerant and less insulting.
What is the substitutionary atonement?
Does Jesus teach that once you are forgiven of your sins, if you are not perfect and sinless from there on in, all your past sins will be lumped together in a big wad and dumped on your head...again?
I'd like to see the actual Bible reference for that. _________________________________________________
There's Bible references about something else happening to ours sins...and how God "deals" with us...
He has not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. Psalm 102:10-12
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, And will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. You will give truth to Jacob and mercy to Abraham, Which You have sworn to our fathers from days of old. Micah 7:18-20
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 2 Samuel 12:13
Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness; It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness, For You have cast all my sins behind Your back. Isaiah 38:17
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins. Isaiah 43:25
For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. Zechariah 3:9
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. Hebrews 9:26
I am 42 and joined the church in 1999.
The fact that the Temple curtain was rent while Christ was on the Cross was a significant miracle as well as a MAJOR DEMARCATION POINT IN THE CHRISTIAN TIME LINE.
Yet, the Book of Mormon makes NO note of this Covenantal shift.
IN fact, the Book of Mormon is a mishmash of Old and New Covenants.
This is a dangerous practice and set of beliefs in the End Times.
We cannot pretend we are under the Old Covenant, as Joseph Smith and friends did with their Office of the Old Testament Prophet, with their practice of Old Testament polygamy and their threats to people who left the Mormon faith of retribution by death.
But the fact that the Book Of Mormon, reportedly a version of history that takes place during a course of time before and after the Cross, makes not Covenantal differentiation is glaring giveaway that the source of the Mormon gospel is not God but Satan and a doctrine of demons.
I have no interest in arguing, it is just that the facts about Mormonism are so clear, and it saddens me because I love the Mormons I know.
It is the Betty Crocker/American Family Values part of Mormonism that is appealing but yet, this is not the Cross.
We cannot worship at the idol of American Family Values or the American Dream even, as true Christians, we only can worship at the Cross by taking up our cross and dying daily to self as we follow Jesus.
I just wish the Mormons on FR would get it that we are not trying to be "mean" to them — but only take our time here because we are AFRAID FOR THEIR SOULS. Because we know that those who "NO LONGER LOVE THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD" will be deluded by false prophets and false teachers.
In a spirit of Love wrapped in Truth, I just implore the Mormons on FR to really listen and realize what trouble anyone comes under when they add to, twist or present a "restoration" of the Gospel's "foundation that has already been laid" ... and cannot be "restored" or "laid again."
It is a cry to the Mormons to just consider the truth of God's Eternal Word — that Mormonism contradicts. I write this in love because Jesus says He wills it that all should be saved (but the road is narrow and few take it.)0
I implore the Mormons on FR to get past our bickering and just look squarely at the very foundation of the Mormon faith and see that Smith could not be hearing from the Holy Spirit what he reports he did.
The Holy Spirit never contradicts Himself and never contradicts the Word of God. This is the basic reason that Mormonism is not from the Lord.
I speak in love to the Mormon Freepers, please just hear without taking offense. We are only writing because we want to see you in heaven as it is obvious that Joseph Smith did not "tremble at God's holy word" but instead did not test the spirits of the Angel Moroni but listened to a new gospel message that added on things to the Gospel and to the foundation that was already laid.
These acts themselves disqualify Smith from salvation and make him a false teacher of false doctrine that Jesus warns and warns and warns against.
Thank you, Freeplancer.
Not sure where I insulted you, but I grant you your right to believe it.
Here's my problem, and it's the same as many a poster here on the subject of Mormonism. Respectfully, I ask you how a Mormon can reconcile the beliefs put forth in the BOM with the Holy Bible?
In other words, when Joseph Smith claimed that he was greater than Jesus, how can a Mormon who believes the Holy Bible stand by it or justify it? Who's the greatest? To me, the claim is a slap in the face as a Christian.
When God professes to be The Almighty, is He right or wrong? I ask because I don't understand how Mormons can believe that God ATTAINED godhood. To whose status (or what god's status) did HE, GOD ALMIGHTY, have to attain?
You see the problem I have?
I'm just looking for a straight answer and, believe me, there's no insult towards you or ANY Mormon. NONE. YOU ARE LOVED AND YOUR SOUL IS SOUGHT AFTER BY JESUS CHRIST.
Please, if you will, relate how the Mormon church answers the claims put forth above. I would love to know what is actually believed because when I ask - when I post verbatim quotes of Mormons or Joseph Smith himself - I only get some ugly response.
Your post IS appreciated, Freeplancer.
Kind Regards,
"I just wish that you were more tolerant and less insulting."
I've thought about your statement, Freeplancer.
At what cost should a person be "more tolerant and less insulting"?
At the cost of thousand precious souls? One hundred? Ten?
Even one?
At what cost should I say, "You know, I think I'll keep the Truth to myself"?
'Til the day I die, I hope I speak the Truth to YOU and to everyone else.
Let me ask you, will you at least try to see what we all are getting at? Will you try to answer the questions and put the Holy Bible up against the BOM just for a minute?
If you can't do it, will you at least ask yourself why it's too difficult to do so? If your belief is in Jesus Christ alone, it should not be hard to do at all.
Will you try to look to us as your friends who are trying to point you to Truth out of love for our Lord, who commands us so, out of love for you, and not your enemy?
If you can't defend it (Mormonism), why not give a look at Jesus alone?
You state that you were of age when you joined the Mormon church. Did you have any religious background before then?
Finally, what does "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me," mean in the Mormon way of thinking?
Thanks for any and all responses, Freeplancer.
Your post is beautiful and full of truth.
I certainly am NOT Jesus, and never claimed to be anything within a million miles of Him.
I will not argue the fact that we all have our faults. Of course we do. And I definitely do NOT hate Mormons, or anyone else for that matter. I do, however, believe with all my heart that Mormons have been completely misled by Joseph Smith and others of your leaders.
I have been trying for months now simply to understand how otherwise intelligent people can believe as you do. The Bible is not to be corrupted by either taking from or adding to it. Which is EXACTLY what Joseph Smith has done. I just cannot understand how people can believe him and his revised "Bible" rather than the Bible itself.
Thank you for your response. I'm out of here for tonight, but will check back in the morning.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.


text:
Sounds like you need a SSV in addtion to your MFBL.
an LSV with out a WPA is like a bird without wings.
i would not use toothpaste.
iso 91% all the way, but don't use on the wood obviously.
i use a couple camera cases as well.
perfect fit for my MFLB.
I would dump it if I was in a bad situation and then say it is a fancy ring box. =)
this thread makes me feel glad I bought a orbiter in 2014. =)
the MFLB IMHO is one of the most discreet vapes.
also quick.
it would be much more discreet if it didn't say magic-flight.com on the bottom...but...
I use the La Crosse BC-700.
I also use other batteries in it as well such as eneloops.
its all technique.
you're doing something thats not quite right...but you'll get there.
you'll learn from trial and error.
I keep saying we need...
sounds like your technique may be flawed somewhere.
you guys nailed it!
we are pro vapers!
I never used the volcano grinder.
with the LB you want the finest grind possible.....you want dust.
I use the finishing grinder as a secondary...
yeah it adds up on your LB.
mine got clogged after a lot of use and they didn't seem like they wanted to give me a replacement because there was...
mirrored text MFLB sounds cool, (reversed text) even for right or left handed version.
i would buy one.
not that I know of.
we'll see if anyone else knows of any.
LSV with 2 wands!
the shorty wand is essential if you ask me!
comes with the OEM case.
this LSV hasn't been used very much so not a lot of miles...
I own one.
The orbiter is better.
the only advantages to the UFO IMO is more discrete and no glass to break...oh yeah and price.
also I have to...
send it into 7th floor aka LSV/SSV peeps. lol
if its still under warranty then you should just have to pay shipping.
a quick tip: ---I always...
i think it is common and 7th floor does want more money. (who doesn't?)
but they will have to earn it just like the rest of us.
about 2ish trenches & **don't fill past the rails** is very good advice from OF...actually he's full of good advice.
Overfilling is a big mistake...
Separate names with a comma.


text:
Star Trek: Deep Space NineBattle Lines - Season 1, Episode 12 - Apr. 25, 1993 - After showing Bajoran spiritual leader Kai Opaka the wormhole, she, Sisko, Bashir and Kira crash land on a moon. Kai Opaka dies and the three meet the unfriendly locals.
To Embed this video, go to this link.
Back to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Library
back to Uncle Earl's Classic TV Channel


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1999 Nissan Quest SE 4dr Minivan
This has been a very good van for our family for the past seven years. It has been very reliable and a pleasure to drive. The fuel injection system does require cleaning every 30K miles or the pedal will "stick". The interior features have much to be desired, the cupholders, TV/VCR,and seat handles, side vent window latches, are not of good quality. The display of the radio has faded out for a couple of years now, the radio still works however. We are beginning to experience some electrical problems with the power vent windows, turn signal, and window/door lock controls. Overall we have been very pleased with the van and with 84K miles some repairs are to be expected.
The performance on the highway, the ride of a car, and the TV/VCR is one of kids favorites! The little "extras" have made the driving experience of this van pleasureable.
Quality of interior needs to be upgraded. Concerned about possible electrical problems going forward.
We purchased this van with 45k mi on it and have added another 60k w/o a major problem. I change the oil every 5k, and that's about it for service. Brake, shock, and tire wear have all been minimal. It starts and runs well in all weather, with one exception of a moderate lag at idle speed when the A/C compressor turns on. MPG is fair, usually 20-22. Seats are firm and comfortable. Driving position/feel is more carlike than other minivans. A little rust is beginning to show at the bottom of the sliding door panels, but the rest of the paint is good. One annoyance is that the latch on the passenger side sliding door window will not stay screwed in, but I would still buy this van again.
Reliability; firm, comfortable seats; steering wheel-mounted audio controls; side-turning headlights.
At 5'11", I always hit my head on the open trunklid. A few extra inches of vertical travel would be nice. Quality of cupholders, sunglass holder, etc. is not good. Interior fit/finish is below the quality of Sentras and Maximas I have owned.
My Nissan Quest has great styling and good power. I have never been stranded. It is a good value. This is my second Quest, I had a 1997 model before. I traded it in for a 2001 Mazda MPV. I drove the MPV for two months then put it up for sale. I couldn't stand all the quirks and how small it was. I then went out and bought my 1999 Quest. I can't wait to to trade up to even newer Quest. It has awesome styling and is very reliable.
The van needs tougher body panels, they dent too easy, tougher interior controls, and more compartments inside
Engine is real bad. It sounds like an
overworked mule. Dealership service
could never fix it. Jerky action when
applying gas. Engine bogs down and is
a gas hog.
I like the Quest we've had a few minor
gliches when we first purchased it
used. The TV/VCR can be a bit
troublesome at times. The break pedal
sometimes sounds like you are stepping
on a mouse.(I've already had this
looked at and well the mouse came back
again) Overall though this has been a
good van for our family of five.
Sound System, TV/VCR, Rear AC, Storage
all over the place.
Needs a DVD player instead, A little
more foot room in the rear between the
captains seats.
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