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Demonology Warlock Guide
Current as of patch 5.4
- Introduction
- Gearing
- Stats
- Gems and Enchants
- Racial Bonuses
- Trinkets
- Talents and Rotations
- Grimoires & Pets
- Imp Swarm
- Level 90 Talents
- Demonic Fury Generation
- Single Target & Cleave
- AoE Rotation
- Mechanics
- Fight Specific Analysis
1. Introduction
This guide will try to collect everything related to PvE Demonology play, and present it in a quick but accurate layout. Everything in here is correct as far as I am aware, if you notice anything in here that is incorrect please bring it up so I can keep it updated .
Demonology is a spec that can give unparalleled control over damage and mobility, properlly used this spec can produce some of the top damage in a variety of scenarios. Your Primary pets, Wild Imps, Doomguard, Molten Core, Demonic Fury, and Dark Soul give you insane amounts of control on when and how you are doing damage.
If you are a person that generally enjoys have many powerful cooldowns and can plan out your fight ahead of time then I highly suggest that you give Demonology a try. Be aware though, that Demonic Fury is a relatively slow building resource, if you are the kind of player that plays mainly in the moment then I would suggest Affliction or Destro.
2. Gearing
A. Stats
So one of the things that players generally want right away in a guide is a quick and simple run down of what stats to gear for. For Demonology this is basically impossible because our secondary stats are so close together that depending on what trinkets you are using, what talents, if you have four piece, of just the level of you gear that Crit, Mastery, and Haste can all rotate being your top stat.
Evrelia did a really good simcraft tutorial that you can view here: Link
Quick and simple stat guide:
Normal Gearing:
Intellect > Hit > Mastery > Haste to 8097 > Crit > Haste
There are a variety of other Haste points you can get to, and depending on your race, proffessions, and ilvl there might be better choices.
High ilvl (565+) Gearing:
Intellect > Hit > Haste to 14873 or 8097> Mastery > Crit
I made a post talking about choosing which way to go Here.
UVLS Gearing (as of a 5.4 hotfix UVLS is not longer BiS, check the trinket list to know if you should still be using it):
Intellect > Hit > Mastery > Haste > Crit
This is our primary stat, everything we do scales with it.
Hit / Expertise
While some warlock specs (Affliction) can get away with not being hit capped, Demonology cannot. You need 15% or 5100 rating. With the release of MoP 1 point of Expertise is equal to 1 point of Hit.
Increases your crit chance by 1% every 600 rating. Soulfire now crits 100% of the time, and gains a damage increase based on your crit percentage, which makes this slightly less RNG then it used to be. Also, whenever Doom critically hits you spawn 1 Wild Imp that does good damage and will generate 50 fury over its duration.
Increases basically all of our pets damage and increases the damage of metamorphosis by a solid amount. Also increases the damage while we are in caster form by a small amount. Unlike cataclysm, in Mists of Pandaria none of our abilities snapshot mastery.
1% Pet damage: ~600 Rating
1% Caster form damage: ~600 Rating
1% Metamorphosis damage: ~200 Rating
Haste rating increases the speed we cast, the rate our DoTs tick, how fast our Primary pets gain energy, and also decrease the cooldown of Imp Swarm and Demonic Calling. Touch of chaos is at a 1s GCD and is not effected by haste. You will need 425 rating for 1% haste.
Some important haste points:
- 3036 - Extra tick of Doom
- 8097 - Extra tick of doom during Bloodlust / Meta gem proc
- 13153 - Extra tick of Doom
- 8064 - Extra tick of Shadowflame
- 14873 - Extra tick of Shadowflame
Haste will generally drop in value after hitting a breakpoint that includes both Doom and Shadowflame. Which breakpoint is best is going to depend on your ilvl and how much haste is naturally on your gear.
B. Gems and Enchants
*As Demonology warlocks, we have a lot of mobility and can probably get away without having a run speed enchant on our boots, but I wouldn't recommend doing so.
Meta Sinister Primal Diamond, Burning Primal Diamond Red Artful Vermilion Onyx Yellow Fractured Suns Radiance Blue Sensei's Wild Jade
At very low gear levels it might not be a good idea to gem Secondary over Int, however with the gear that is available at this time you shouldn't be in that gear range for very long.
C. Racial Bonuses
D. Trinkets
Generally for demonology you want trinkets that have a high value proc, over trinkets with a high passive stat. This is because you have so much control over your cooldowns and can place most of your damage in very small windows throughout the fight.
5.4 Trinkets
Left list is single target, right list is 3 targets. It is created using my gear in Simc build 540-3.
3. Talents and Rotation
A. Grimoires and Pets
For Demonology you basically only choose between the Grimoire of Supremacy and Grimoire of Service. In general Grimoire of Service is always slightly ahead of Supremacy, however the difference between the two is pretty small so if you don't want another cooldown to press you can get away with using Supremacy without much issue. Grimoire of Service does have a few perks to it however. On any fight with AoE having an extra Felstorm every two minutes is going to outweigh the 20% increased Felstorm from the Wrathguard. GoServ will also generate 60 fury over its duration, which is a huge help on the opener when you are going to be fury starved.
You should use Felguard in almost every case, however if you find that your pet is spending too much time traveling you can use a Succubus for a minimal DPS loss.
Doomguard and Infernal
Doomguard does not gain any casts from haste so when you use Bloodlust won't have an effect on when you want to use Doomguard. There are two ways you can use it, and either might be better. The first option is to use it right on the pull, you are guaranteed to have all of you trinkets and cooldowns effecting it on the pull so you will have the most consistent Doomguard with this option. The other option you have is using it sub 20%, I would only recommend this if the sub 20% phase is going to last at least a full minute and you'll use Dark Soul at some point during that period. It is a lot harder to time this well and will give you more inconsistent results, however if you time it right it may give more damage then just using it on the pull.
The majority of the damage that you will get from Infernal is from Infernal Awakening. In general you won't actually get much damage from the Infernal itself, maybe 200-300k. The damage of Infernal Awakening is buffed by Metamorphosis so you want to make sure you are in Meta when you cast it. If you have DS up you need to hit ~7-8 targets to equal the damage of Doomguard, if DS isn't up you will want ~15 targets.
B. Imp Swarm
For the most part the new Major Glyphs are not going to effect your damage at all, with the exception of Imp Swarm.
Without the Glyph of Imp Swarm you will passively gain the Demonic Calling buff every 20s, which will spawn one Imp. This will grant you 6 Imps \ 2 minutes.
With the glyph you will passively gain the Demonic Calling buff every 24s. This means you get 5 Imps \ 2 minutes. You also have the option to use Imp Swarm which instantly spawn 4 Imps, but then make it so you cannot gain the Demonic Calling buff for 2 minutes. This means by using the glyph you are instantly losing 1 imp \ 2 minutes by glyphing it. Actually using the Imp Swarm ability lowers this by another 1. However due to the fact that the cooldown of Imp Swarm is snapshoted the instant you cast it, you can 'game' the ability to some degree using it during haste procs. In 5.4 it is a DPS LOSS to be using Imp Swarm, however it is still a BURST DPS GAIN. Situationally you might want to use this if you need burst.
C. Level 90 Talents
Archimonde's Darkness
In 5.4 this talent has been reworked significantly. It no longer is a damage reflect and instead modifies our main cooldown, Dark Soul. The talent now makes our Dark Soul cooldown have two charges. The main strength of the this talent comes from the fact you can now sit on a charge of Dark Soul and not get penalized for not using it until it hits its second charge. You 'can' just use it back to back, however I find that isn't optimal in most situations. This talent is strongest on single target fights, anything more then that and Mannoroth's Fury is most likely a better option.
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning
In 5.4 this KjC no longer provides complete passive cast while moving with a snare. Instead it lets us cast our base fillers (Shadow Bolt for Demonology) while moving with no snare. Fel Flame is nearly the exact same damage, just at a higher mana cost. There is literally no scenario I can think of where we would take this talent anymore.
Mannoroth's Fury
Mannoroth's Fury is going to feel like Demonology's bread and butter talent this tier. It no longer provides a passive AoE radius increase, and instead gives us a 1 minute cooldown that increases the damage of Hellfire and Immolation Aura by 100% and also increases their radius by 500%
Anything more then 2 targets sustained and this becomes a very solid damage increase to be using on cooldown. The biggest thing to remember when using this talent is that Immolation Aura is a far stronger ability and you will want to make sure you have the proper amounts of fury saved up for its use.
D. Fury Generation
Single target fury generation:
Soulfire 15 Fury/s Shadowbolt 10 Fury/s Fel Flame 10 Fury/s Hand of Gul'dan 8 Fury/s (Entire DoT) Legion Strike 2.5 Fury/s Corruption 2 Fury/s (36 Fury per cast) Wild Imps 2 Fury/s (50 Fury per Imp)
AoE fury generation:
Hellfire 10 Fury/s + 3 Fury/s per extra target
If you want a more detailed look at fury costs and gains you can use the following spreadsheet:
E. Single Target & Cleave
In general your single target rotation will follow this priority:
1. Dark Soul: Knowledge
2. Grimoire: Felguard if talented
3. Glyph of Imp Swarm if Glyphed
4. Summon Doomguard
5. Metamorphosis* during Cooldowns or Procs (Immolation Aura can be used at 3+ targets)
6. Keep Corruption Ticking on all targets
- Keep Metamorphosis: Doom Ticking on all targets
- Metamorphosis: Touch of Chaos Is your main fury dump
7. Hand of Gul'dan** when you have 2 stacks
8. Felguard: Felstorm on CD unless there will be AoE opportunities
9. Soul Fire when MC is up***
10. Life Tap if below 50% mana (you want to keep high mana so you don't have to life tap as much under 25%)
11. Shadow Bolt
For a brief amount of time Fel Flame was a higher DPS filler then Shadow Bolt, however its mana cost has gotten nerfed to the point that is no longer the case. That said it is still a very solid mobility spell and we lose very minimal DPS from using it on the move.
Single target DPS as Demonology is very dependent on good cooldown management, try to stack as many cooldowns together as possible without delaying the use to the point where you might lose uptime on a fight.
*Metamorphosis - You want to plan to use your Demonic Fury when you have other damage increases like Dark Soul or trinket procs. With the t14 4pc you will basically spend the majority of your fury during Dark soul, with some extra fury for other trinket procs. This means that if you entered in meta during a proc that you should be canceling meta right as it ends to save fury for future procs.
**Hand of Guldan- The 'correct' way to use Hand of Gul'dan is to wait until there is less then 6s until you get 2 charges of HoG. You then want to use one charge, cast a few spells, and then clip shadowflame right before it runs out so you have ~5s of a one stack shadowflame, then 6s of a 2 stack
shadowflame. Doing this correctly will make Hand of Gul'dan out-preform Chaos Wave virtually always, and makes Chaos Wave pretty useless in PvE.
***Soul Fire - Using MC stacks correctly is a big part of making sure you are optimizing your damage as much as possible. You should be treating your Molten Core stacks like an additional resource that you use with other procs such as Trinkets, Engineer Gloves, Potions, ect. If you copy your stats into the following spreadsheet you'll get a better idea if you should be casting Soul Fire in Metamorphosis or Caster Form. A general rule of thumb would be if you are under 6k haste use your MC stacks in caster form, if you are over 6k haste use them in meta form.
E. AoE Rotation
Demonology AoE is very encounter specific and has a lot of different situational options. When encountering an AoE situation you need to figure out how long the targets will be up for, how often the adds might spawn and if you will run out of fury during the AoE.
Your AoE rotation will follow this priority:
1. Dark Soul: Knowledge
2. Grimoire: Felguard if talented
3. Glyph of Imp Swarm if Glyphed
4. Felguard: Felstorm on CD
Meta Form
1. Metamorphosis: Immolation Aura
2. Carrion Swarm if you are in Meta, and corruptions are at max duration (Recommend using the glyph)
3. Keep Metamorphosis: Doom Ticking on all targets. Under 8 Targets it needs to tick once, over 8 it should tick at least twice.
4. Chaos Wave If the targets will be alive under 10 seconds and you will not run out of fury for AoE
5. Use Metamorphosis: Void Ray is your filler AoE spell. Use it at 4+ targets. As of 5.4 it no longer refreshes corruption so you won't have free AoE corruption refreshes anymore.
If you have 4 piece tier 16 it is actually more dps over time to use ToC over void ray and hope for Chaos Wave procs. However, it is RNG and may or may not come out to be an increase on quick periods of AoE because of how unreliable it is.
Caster Form
1. Hand of Gul'dan - Double Stack like on single target if the targets will live long enough
2. Hellfire
I am keeping this chart for reference, as there may be times (4-5 targets) where you will want to just tab ToC instead of Void Ray to keep corruptions rolling.
# of Targets Time Needed 3 14s 4 18s 5 22s 10 42s 15 64s 20 84s
F. Mechanics
Dot Damage
Damage from DoTs DO NOT automatically benefit from procs, you have to refresh them manually or update them with Touch of Chaos. This does mean that if your DoTs are already gaining damage from a previous proc, and you refresh via any method that your DoTs will lose the damage from that proc. I suggest using using the addon 'Affdots' for tracking DoT strength.
Corruption does not get any benefit from metamorphosis, however it does get a benefit from the caster form mastery. There is a slight delay upon leaving Metamorphosis where you don't have the caster mastery increase, so you do not want to cast corruption or hand of guldan directly after leaving meta.
Depending on the strength of you procs when you are casting Doom, you may want to consider double casting it to have a higher uptime of Doom + procs.
The damage of shadowflame is calculated upon being applied to the target, and not when HoG is cast. This means that you can enter meta after your second HoG, and shadowflame will be buffed with Meta.
Refreshing DoTs
At level 90 you gain the Pandemic passive. This allows you to refresh a DoT under 50% of its normal duration without losing DPS. For example: Corruption has a base duration of 18 seconds, this means you can refresh at under 9s and it will go to a maximum of 27s. I strongly recommend using the addon 'Affdots' for tracking DoT strength.
4. Fight Specific Guides
The Demonology discussion of 5.0 and the pre-patch is located here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...Week-Gear-List


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HGTV Message Boards
Quilting & Needlework
BOM's for 2013
Happy New Year!
I thought a thread with all the BOM's we have found for 2013 would be fun~
I found this one at Country Threads
And of course, we have our very own here on the board~
What have you found??
There goes my new year's resolution...kinda. I wouldn't be buying this pattern!
I really like it and printed out the directions. Are you doing this one too?
I am anxious to see what new BOM Sindy at Fatcatpatterns is going to have sometime this month. I so enjoyed the funky chicks.
Either one of the BOMs that you showed Crazyboutquilts, are nice too. What are you going to do?
Our lives are like quilts - bits and pieces, joy and sorrow, stitched with love.
LOL Carolyn~ I am definitely doing the board BOM and I'm thinking about the Country Threads one too~ I love the scrappiness of it.
Sindy will have her new BOM ready about Valentine's Day. They're testing it now.
Here are two free BOM's: http://www.quiltingboard.com/forum.php
As far as I know you have to be a member of the board (just register). Go to 'Blocks of the Month and Week'. They are fun to do
I like scrappy quilts so I will be doing the BOM from Country Threads.
Thanks CBQ.....
For those who like small quilts there will be one from here: Jan 25 http://temeculaquiltco.blogspot.com/
More details on fabric requirements coming soon.
Judie Rothermel 25th Anniversary Sew Along
Here is another BOM, starting tomorrow. first Friday of the month
Quilts by Darlene:
I can't wait for "Jingle" to start at One Piece at a Time blog. This is the blog address, http://erinrussek.typepad.com/one-piece-at-a-time/. She has lovely applique blocks. Jingle will be pieced and appliqued.
~There are pawprints on my heart.~
I really like the one from Country Threads. Thanks for posting the link.
I'm going to try the BOM from Country Threads. Here's January blocks
Here's one I just found on Craftsy. It's free.
I just watched the video for Jan and if the rest of the months go the same way, it is a great BOM for newbie quilters. She explains 'everything'.This message has been edited. Last edited by: paus4quilts,
I believe City/Sandie is doing the one from Temecula.
Very nice "will quilt"
I have my fabric picked out. Will cut tomorrow...
Oh I like your blocks WQFC! Very nice!
Way to sew WQFC! I love your blocks!!
I posted this one in a topic of its own the other day but will put it here just in case. I'm saving this and want to to it but just don't know when.
Thanks Margie!
Here's a cute block of the week~
Here's the first mini block from Heartspun Quilts (link above)
And I got my two blocks done for the Country Threads BOM too.
Here is the one from Temecula...starting Jan. 27th...I do like her projects...
"In Michigan"
Your blocks look great CBQ! I really want to do the Heartspun one. My week became way more complicated today. I might be able to eek out some time on Thursday. Ugh!
Easier said than done! I tried to register last night & got an e-mail from them this morning saying that I didn't "meet the registration requirements" and my account was being deleted! I answered all their questions...not sure what I did to tick them off!!
That is really strange,I'm a member want me to ask them why you were rejected,gosh that's a terrible word...I bet it was a blip with computers,try again today...
"In Michigan"
Here's a cute one. I hope I do this right, been awhile since I've posted here!
Now that I see that one worked here are a few more I've found.
Happy stitching!
Sherry, Love a couple of the links you provided. Numbers 1 and 3 would make really cute baby quilts. I'm downloading these two. Not sure when I will need them but couldn't pass them by! Thanks for the links. sandy
Here are my Country Thread BOM blocks. I'm liking this one!!
Here's mine for the Heartspun BOW. I think I need to work on my accuracy!
Thank you for the great post. I really like the finished project.
I really like the Debbie Mumm BOM. Now I have three BOM's I want to do this year.
WOW! You gals really are making me want to do ALL of them!!! LOL.........thanks for sharing all of them.
Heartspun Qlts BOW. Week 2
A really easy technique!
I did mine too!
I'll add that I think that one of my blocks is sewn in the wrong direction, but I've decided to love it that way! Translation...I'm not taking the block apart! LOL!This message has been edited. Last edited by: Will Quilt for Chocolate,
Bumping this up...the newest block of the week from Heartspun quilts is up. Hope I'm up to the challenge on this weeks block!
Don't think this one has been posted yet. If you like hearts here is a pretty one.
Here's my block for week three in the Heartspun Quilts BOW. It looks crooked in the picture, but in real life I think it's straighter.
2 others I found this weekend when I was supposed to be doing homework... I already chose fabrics for the castle one (http://www.lenzula.de/en/bom/bom-2013.html) (even though I did a castle for the scraps to treasure last year!) and caught up ALL 13 blocks of the alphabet one (http://www.claudiasquiltshoppe.com/freebom.htm) in greens and creams.
Looking good Jill! Mine is finished but haven't taken a photo yet.
Thanks for all the BOM links ladies!!
Ok, here is my week three block~ tomorrow week four comes out already!
Gee, Angela and TcMay. I went to that forum and didn't register but was able to get to the BOMs. Did I do something wrong?
I like that Debbie Mumm pattern. I like most of the patterns, actually. lolll
Several great BOM's listed. Thanks everyone. I picked a couple to download monthly and maybe start working on...
Just printed the paper piecing pattern for this weeks Heartspun project! Yikes! That's a lot of pieces! Hope to work on it this weekend!
Heartspun Quilts week 4~
I love paper piecing when the block is only 4 inches finished!
I love all the little blocks you, CBQ, and WQFC have shown from Heartspun... can't wait to see what the final product will be.
And like the blocks, too, from Country Threads that have been shown.
I thought about doing both but never got started!
Val Laird has begun a new one
Apples of Gold
CBQ - I'm about to start that log cabin block...my paper pattern doesn't measure out to the 4.5" I'm going to leave the last 4 wide, do you think that will be OK?
It looks like a lesson in torture!
Actually it was really easy to do Jill. Just cut the seams down a little less than a quarter but more than an eighth. And leaving the last four larger should work fine. Have fun!
OK - here's my log cabin...it's not trimmed up yet. I followed the example in the picture, not the shading on the pattern.
Good job WQFC! I like your colors!
Looks great WQFC! I did just the opposite~ the pattern, I didn't look at her photo until I was done.
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China Envoy Seeks Urgent Talks on Korea
China said mounting tensions on the Korean peninsula in the wake of a deadly North Korean artillery attack on the South are "worrying" and called Sunday for emergency consultations in Beijing, as the U.S. and South Korea started large-scale naval drills in the Yellow Sea. Beijing's diplomatic initiative followed a hurried weekend visit to Seoul by China's top foreign-affairs official, State Councilor Dai Bingguo, and other Chinese officials, and appeared aimed at restarting a series of six-party talks that for years have sought to persuade North Korea to abandon its nuclear-weapons ambitions. WSJ's Gordon Fairclough takes us deeper into China's worries. Download MP3
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Denial-a-Palooza is a Media Hit
Denial-a-Palooza is a Media Hit
… But Not What Organizers Wanted
Mainstream media seem to have caught up with climate change denial (caught up with reality, really), just in time to humiliate the assembled "sceptics" at the Heartland Institute's 2008 International Conference on Climate Change.
While Heartland wants to position the conference as a "smashing success," the New York Times, CNN - even that raving left-wing apology sheet the Wall Street Journal - have all lifted their delicate hands and snickered. CNN, in a spot that left the cool dudes at Newsbusters apoplectic, went so far as to call the assembled skeptics "flat earthers." (click on the seventh item here for Miles O'Brien's actual video.)
It's interesting, per Andy Revkin's New York Times piece, that the coal industry's pet scientist, Pat Michaels, stood up at the conference, acknowledged that humans are causing climate change and predicted a three-degree Fahrenheit temperature increase this century (a relative disaster scenario, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change). Then he said that was really no problem and that we shouldn't bother taking any action to prevent this from happening.
If sowing confusion is the goal, these guys are still on their game. But if they were hoping to be taken seriously, alas, time, climate and public understanding has passed them by.
- Richard Littlemore's blog
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In the fine tradition of the Oregon Petition, we now have The Manhattan Declaration:
They must have stayed up all night getting it just right. I wonder how many "prominent experts' will find their names attached to it?
Fern Mackenzie
Notice the great coverage they got in the National Spot? The Post printed a Fred Singer fairy tale and an Open Letter to UN Secretary Bam without so much as suggesting this gang of clowns were connected to right wing think tanks and the fossil fuel industry. RealClimate.org has a great review of many of the signatories.
ENVIRONMENTALISM IS RECYCLED COMMUNISM AND NAZISM (And You're Supporting It)
Here's the essential common core of hatred and destruction in the doctrines of Communism, Nazism, and Environmentalism. Only the concretes differ, not the fundamental principle of hatred for human life and happiness.
Communism: The pursuit of individual self-interest causes monopolies, depressions, and exploitation of workers by capitalists. It must be replaced by self-sacrifice for the benefit of the working class and the Socialist State. Capitalists and landowners must be exterminated for the benefit of the proletariat.
Nazism: The pursuit of individual self-interest causes racial impurity, national decline, and exploitation of German workers by Jewish capitalists. It must be replaced by self-sacrifice for the good of the Aryan master race and the National Socialist State. Jews, Gypsies, and Slavs must be exterminated for the benefit of the German Nation.
Environmentalism: The pursuit of individual self-interest causes global warming, acid rain, and ozone depletion. It must be replaced by self-sacrifice for the good of other species—our "fellow biota"—and for the good of the planet, under the auspices of international treaties and a nascent Global Socialist State: the UN. Most of the human race must be exterminated for the benefit of exploited species and the planet. (This is what the environmentalist "extremists" already openly say. The "moderates" merely want to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 90 percent and thereby reduce the American standard of living to that of a third world country, with a third world country's infant mortality and life expectancy.)
I wouldn't know George Reisman from a blue plate special, so I don't really know how to react to this (or whether to bother . . .). I am going to go find out more, and offer this URL for anyone else who is curious. http://www.georgereisman.com/blog/
Fern Mackenzie
Aha, I see a strategy here...
When the science doesn't like you, play to the ideology instead.
Notice the ideological "argument" is/was pretty much the last bastion of every other issue that the conlibertarians have ever touched: tobacco, nuclear winter, gun control, ...
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
I can't help noticing that recently the argument that dealing with AGW will erode people's freedoms and subject them to the power of the UN, a "world-wide socialist organization" has been coming through loud and clear, even at the expense of the "message" that humans aren't the cause etc. They are clearly returning to their roots, as Oreskes' lecture, linked elsewhere on this blog, so clearly identified.
The deniers are increasingly making the point that, although the science of AGW is not a right/left political issue, the way we approach dealing with the consequences IS, and that terrifies their little free-market souls.
Fern Mackenzie
I see that some of the folks commenting at the WSJ blog (http://tinyurl.com/2668v2) are dishing out quotes from the US Founding Fathers.
The denialists are fast retreating to their last bastion of ideological "argument"...
Edit: Holy crap, I stand corrected. They're not down to their last bastion yet.
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
Don't feed them!
So, because I want the free market to deliver me clean water I can drink, clean air I can breath, fruits and vegetables that aren't contaminated with pesticides, and power generated by something other then burning fossil fuels I'm a Nazi? That's a great leap, especially since the Nazi's exterminated 6 million Jews for simply breathing, let alone trying to actually make their world better.
Sure, there are probably some on the extreme fringe of environmentallism who would love to reduce our standard of living, but what's wrong wiith asking the market economy to solve some of the problems it created? Why can't we say to coal burning utilities that we're happy to pay for their power, as long as they invest in technologies to keep the products of combustion from destroying the atmosphere? Seems to me we did just that in the 1980's to eliminate acid rain, and I don't remember a slew of coal fired power plants winking out of existance.
You sound like another "keep the government off my back" libertarian, using the Global climate Change issue to take back handed swipes at governemnt regulation. if that's your position, fine, but just be up front about it, and leave the environment out of the equation.
I did some googling on Reisman and unfortunately the guy is for real. Loopy, but real. He was closely associated with Ayn Rand (what was your first clue?), and his blog at http://www.georgereisman.com/blog/ is pretty scary.
Fern Mackenzie
George, (if you really are George or whoever you may be) environmentalism is not about destruction but preservation and restoration of the world which sustains our lives (the core of environmentalism).
Likening failed nationalistic ideologies of the past to environmentalism is ridiculous - because really the link you are making with these ideas is based on incredibly distorted social implications. Exterminating people is not part of environmentalism.
Environmentalism is a global concern people have because they realize their dependance on the environment to thrive and survive. As natural beings we are all plugged into the environment whether we like it or not. Get with the future George!
If you want to check out a funny (and interesting) video about our trip to the 2008 International Climate Change Conference -- ie. "The Skeptic Tank", check out this link. From Monckton of Brenchley to the head of the Heartland Institute -- we got 'em all...Enjoy!
I love it:
Monckton: "Most scientists here are retired. that means we are free to say what we think is true."
That's like saying what we members of the House of Lords think...
> CNN, in a spot that left the cool dudes at Newsbusters apoplectic,
> went so far as to call the assembled skeptics "flat earthers"
Now if they'd really wanted to make a splash, they should have called them "evolution deniers"... but that wouldn't have worked in America, now would it. Sad.
Meanwhile, the key message from the conference that seems to be spreading around in wingnut circles is this:
John Coleman Is Going To Sue Al Gore w00t w00t w00t!!!1111111
No, the key message isn't the "science". Or the call for inaction. Or fr33dom. The key message is that Coleman is going to sue Gore. (http://tinyurl.com/24uom5)
Holy batman, this is stupid. Wait, not just stupid. This is beyond stupid.
* * *
... Then again, I guess there's method in this stupid. It's a good way to conjure up an image of some sort of Great Apocalyptic Struggle Between The Righteous Defenders Of Freedom And Al Gore The Antichrist. And when there's an impending "struggle", there'll be a fake impression of "doubt". Even though the doubt isn't in the science itself.
Which means they're still not down to their last bastion yet...
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
coming through loud and clear, is very simple: "I'm alright, Jack -- don't mess with me! I have the right to do whatever I damned well please regardless of the consequences, and you've got no business regulating anything."
. . . oh yes, and John Coleman is going to sue Al Gore.
Fern Mackenzie
He founded the Weather Channel. Now, I do not mean in any way to denigrate weathermen/weatherwomen and/or meteorologists. But this guy is over-stepping his bounds. He may be able to do the weather forecast, but that doesn't qualify him to trash climate science.
Fern Mackenzie
His Comment about reporting accurate weather was directed to Heidi Cullen (the Weather Channel)..I think. After all for her to say that Climatologist should have their Certification removed if they did not agree with AGW, was also over-stepping her bounds.
"side with contrarians who are ideologically driven and, often, financially corrupt?" And the AGW side is driven by? . As a Tax payer I am not impress with these New Taxes EI the CO2 tax in BC.
Heidi Cullen.
" I'd like to take that suggestion a step further. If a meteorologist has an AMS Seal of Approval, which is used to confer legitimacy to TV meteorologists, then meteorologists have a responsibility to truly educate themselves on the science of global warming. (One good resource if you don't have a lot of time is the Pew Center's Climate Change 101.)
Meteorologists are among the few people trained in the sciences who are permitted regular access to our living rooms. And in that sense, they owe it to their audience to distinguish between solid, peer-reviewed science and junk political controversy. If a meteorologist can't speak to the fundamental science of climate change, then maybe the AMS shouldn't give them a Seal of Approval. Clearly, the AMS doesn't agree that global warming can be blamed on cyclical weather patterns. It's like allowing a meteorologist to go on-air and say that hurricanes rotate clockwise and tsunamis are caused by the weather. It's not a political statement...it's just an incorrect statement.
I agree with every meteorologist who says the topic of global warming has gotten too political. But that's why talking about the science is so important!"
How come no one from the AGW groups were present at the New York meeting last week? The Invitation was there..why not attend? Would it not have been the perfect forum to debate / confront this issue?
"The Invitation was there..why not attend? Would it not have been the perfect forum to debate / confront this issue?"
The issue has been "debated" countless times. No amount of "debate" will ever be enough for you guys.
It's like the Dover trial. The IDists totally got pwned, but did that stop them? Did they admit they were wrong? Nope. They just continued with their nonsense, except under a different guise -- before, they called ID a "theory", now they just call it a "philosophy".
So yeah, any calls for "debate" are just an excuse to make noise. We know.
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
"enough for you guys" This should not be a Us vs Them debate... I am a 59.. No science degree just a Plumber(I know bovine dropping):-) and I want to know what my taxes are being spend on.
If am told something and if it does not make any sense? I ask questions. ..and that's wrong?
The scientists have been saying for many years that global warming is happening and that it is being caused by human activities. Wilbert, climate change is going to have serious effects on all of us, particularly on agriculture and therefore our food supplies, and in some places on water availability. We need to act as individuals, but our governments also need to act decisively to stop the harm we are doing to ourselves and to our home.
If you have suggestions on how to reduce our use of oil, gas, coal and other dirty fuels, bring 'em out. We waste a lot now in our daily lives, but also industries that produce greenhouse gas have to be forced to clean up their acts. Our governments have not had the guts or the political will to regulate them enough.
People are forced to stop at red lights when they are driving. That way they are less likely to kill someone who is driving through a green light. These industries are taking our resources and making us pay a lot for their products; so why should we allow them to damage our environment without making them pay for it? Why should they be able to poison us?
There are several greenhouse gases including CO2, methane, etc.
Here's a good source to counter some of the BS you have probably been reading, Wilbert.
gristmill been there done that still reading.
"People are forced to stop at red lights when they are driving." No they are not force they make a choice it is different.. Being force is when the Law makers decide that an Incandescent lamp is gone and you are "force" to buy a CFL type.. As a Consumer I want the choice between the two type of Lamps. Is it not California who want to use Remote control to set the Home thermostat temperature without a say from the home owners?
You said the BS I have been reading.. Well I have also been reading this site/forum/blog..:-)
"This should not be a Us vs Them debate..."
There's nothing "us vs. them" about admitting to being wrong. Global warming is either serious or not serious. It cannot be both. One position is right, the other is wrong. And if you're wrong, you just admit you're wrong, and you change your position and move on.
But it's clear you don't want that. You don't want to admit your position may be wrong. Well, that's your problem (for identifying your very self with a position), not mine.
"No science degree just a Plumber(I know bovine dropping):-) and I want to know what my taxes are being spend on."
Oh, it's the ideological argument again. Who needs science? Who needs facts?
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
... overstepping his bounds ...
Formal academic credentials aren't the only measure of a scientists credibility but, since you want to play that game, who do you think should be more knowledgeable about climate - a guy with a PhD in meteorology or an oceanographer and computer programmer (Andy Weaver) who identifies himself as a "climatologist".
Just askin'.
BTW, I have no particular beef with Weaver. He's a decent individual and much less prone to unscientific raving than some other members of the brotherhood (eg. Hansen).
Bottom line is that not very many institutions issue degrees labelled "climatologist" and there are PhDs on both sides of the debate who call themselves climatologists because of their interest and activity in the field.
Hi Guys; Just a heads up!
If you start now you should be able work up a good smear for all of the engineers in this poll before the word gets out.
I am sure you can spin it to show they are all shills, crackpots and idiots.
(since that is what desmog was invented to do)
Have a good weekend.
While you are assinating those characters, you should make up some dirt on this guy as well. His position is REALLY dangerous to the AGW Industry.
Imagine.... suggesting an IPCC scientest might have made a mistake on somthing.
Your off-topic spam's being ignored, Troll.
By the way, here's a suggestion that Daily Tech might be being stupid: http://tinyurl.com/335ydu
I'm sure that'll go down well for the Church of Global Warming Denialism...
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
Monckton's "plan" against Al Gore, James Hansen, and the rest of the Vast Worldwide Satanic Conspiracy (not): http://tinyurl.com/25g5wr
I wonder if Gore already has a plan too?
Frank Bi, http://tinyurl.com/2f63xd
Supervisory meteorologists with NOAA's National Weather Service claimed that Gore's book in 1992 on global warming book was politicallly motivated. During the 1993 Midwest flood, NWS supervisors refused national media requests to talk about climate change in relation to unprecedented heavy rainfall that year.
NWS has been embarrassed by Gore's speaking out on global warming. NWS have viewed weather and climate as their turf. Their distain for Gore may have cost Gore the election in 2000 in that NWS supervisors used their public offices (with 5500 employees in the US) to degrade Al Gore for more than a decade.


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