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text:
MANSON - Katie Rosenboom has been hired as insurance agent/agency manager for Heartland Insurance Agency Inc.
Rosenboom has more than 12 years of experience in the insurance industry and was previously an insurance agent in Pocahontas for six years.
She and husband John have four children and live near Pomeroy.
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subset: commoncrawl


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Take the stress out of planning an important business meeting or social event when you let the Radisson Curitiba host. The hotel features five different meeting rooms, the largest of which can accommodate up to 570 guests. Meeting amenities include catering assistance, audiovisual equipment rental, high-speed Internet access and an on-site Business Center to help you prepare. Let this hotel's experienced, professional staff help make your perfect meeting, wedding reception or family gathering a complete success.
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Oasis Hotel Luxor Reviews
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I spend only 1 day in Oasis hotel and Luxor few days ago, and I would never forget the experience I had stayed the place. I stayed at single room with private bathroom, and the clearness of the room was pretty good. And it also very quiet. The location was fantastic. I could visit Luxor Temple by walk, and it took only 10 minutes from the hotel. Hassan was very kind and friendly, as another reviews said
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Great place overall, don't be put off by interior. Hassan is very friendly and genuinely wants you to feel at home and safe. Rooms are basic but comfy, bathroom always had hot water, no mosquitos, location was supreme (right next to train station). Great restaurants nearby. Breakfast was basic but filling, sometimes Mohammad would throw in a falafel and foul =) Rooftop patio is ideal, cheap beer prices too. We booked 3 nights, ended up staying 5. Great value!
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Who could replace this slightly autistic wunderkind that's been given the keys to the kingdom?
Who would replace Saban?
Who could handle absolute power without crash and burning? I've started to imagine worst case scenarios where Saban can't even handle this type of power and it ends like Woody Hayes... slugging a player on the sideline.
My arrogant question scares even me.
How do we freely hand over total and complete control of a dynasty to simply continue the process that Saban has started? One thing I know for certain is Saban will be tempted the same time next year from another football program, so who would you hire?
Edited by Noah, 16 December 2013 - 08:26 PM.


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Demonstrating the historical reliability of the Bible through archaeological research and related apologetic investigation.
Attempts to correlate the findings of archaeology with the biblical record for the period under review have seemingly met with insurmountable obstacles. Much of the scholarly community today has despaired of making any valid connections and has dismissed biblical history prior to the kingdom period as nothing more than myth and legend... Continue reading
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Since the writer has scoured the district in question in all directions, hunting for ancient sites, he can attest the fact that there is no other possible site for Ai than et-Tell.51
[T]hey were...semi-nomads in the process of sedentarization, who came from the semi-desert zone and entered civilized regions as strangers....they were members of tightly knit tribal units whose allegiance was determined by kinship and who had their own system of law.69
The (foreign) chieftains lie prostrate, saying "Peace." Not one lifts his head among the Nine Bows. Libya is captured, while Hatti is pacified. Canaan is plundered, Ashkelon is carried off, and Gezer is captured. Yenoam is made into non-existence; Israel is wasted, its seed is not; and Hurru is become a widow because of Egypt. All lands united themselves in peace. Those who went about are subdued by the king of Upper and Lower Egypt...Merneptah.91
Merenptah's Canaanite campaign can be dated to the first few years of his reign, ca. 1210 B.C.92 The record of the campaign is written in a poetic style and many analysts agree that it has a chiastic format, although there is lack of agreement as to the exact structure.93 Apart from the format, however, there are a number of significant aspects of the poem on which most scholars agree. The word for Israel has the determinative for a people-group, as opposed to the other named nations and city-states that have the determinative for a political entity. This indicates that Israel was a tribal community at this time, with no fixed boundaries,94 perfectly in keeping with the biblical depiction of Israel in the Judges period. It must be recognized that the Merenptah Stele is a eulogy and, as such, extols the great accomplishments of the Pharaoh. The fact that Israel is mentioned at all indicates that, by the end of the thirteenth century B.C., the Israelite tribes had achieved sufficient status to be deemed worthy of being defeated by the king of one of the most powerful nations on earth. Perhaps Deborah and Barak's defeat of Hazor about this time (see above) brought Israel onto the stage of international politics. Israel had progressed from being referred to as generic capiru in the Amarna Letters (see above) in the previous century, to being known by their correct biblical name in Merenptah's day.
Perhaps the most important feature of the stela is that Israel is presented in parallel with Hurru, the Egyptian term for Palestine. The implication is that since Egypt (theoretically) did away with Israel ("its seed is not"), all of Palestine was devastated ("Hurru is become a widow"). This indicates that Israel was the most powerful people group in Canaan at the end of the thirteenth century B.C.,95 which has implications for the integrity of the biblical model. The idea that Israel emerged from the indigenous Canaanite population in the twelfth century B.C. has gained favor in recent years, However, since the Merenptah Stele testifies that Israel was well established and recognized by Egypt by the end of the previous century, such cannot be the case.96
Migration of the Danites (Judg. 17-18)
Judges 18 describes the migration of the tribe of Dan, or a portion of it, from their assigned allotment west of Benjamin to Laish, which they renamed Dan. The time of the migration can be bracketed within a narrow range. In the days of Deborah in the late thirteenth century, the Danites were still living in their coastal allotment as indicated by the reference to Dan staying in ships (Judg. 5:17). Judges 18:31 states that Micah's images were in use at Dan throughout the time the Tabernacle was at Shiloh. Since Shiloh fell to the Philistines ca. 1100 B.C. or a little later (see below), the migration must have taken place between the late thirteenth century and 1100 B.C. The most likely event that would have occasioned the displacement of Danites was the incursion of the Philistines into the southwest coastal plain in the eighth year of Ramesses III, ca. 1177 B.C.97
Laish/Dan has been identified as Tell el-Qadi, now called Tell Dan, at the foot of Mount Hermon, ca. 40 km north of the Sea of Galilee. Excavations since 1966 under the direction of Avraham Biran have revealed a prosperous Late Bronze Age culture, Str. VII, destroyed by fire early in the twelfth century B.C. This appears to be the city burned by the Danites (Judg. 18:27).98 Laish had a connection, perhaps commercial, with the coastal city of Sidon, ca. 45 km to the northwest (Judg. 18:7, 28)99 The most impressive discovery in Str. VII was a tomb containing imported Mycenaean pottery from Greece, including a unique "charioteer vase." Anthropological examination revealed that the individuals buried in the tomb did not belong to the local Canaanite population.100 Moreover, neutron activation testing of plain ware vessels in the tomb indicates they came from the Phoenician coast.101. It is possible that the inhabitants of Str. VII Laish were involved in an import trade business with Sidon.
A nomadic, or seminomadic, culture characterized by pits, some of which were stone-lined, next occupied the site in Str. VI.102 Large pithoi called "collared-rim store jars," well known from the highlands where they are associated with Israelite settlement, were found in the pits.103 Ten of 11 of the pithoi tested by neutron activation analysis were made from clay not native to the Tell Dan area, indicating the new settlers brought them from elsewhere.104 The newcomers soon became urbanized, as Str. V was a dense array of domestic and industrial architecture across the tell.105 This stratum was destroyed in a fierce conflagration in the mid-eleventh century B.C., possibly at the hands of the Philistines at the same time Shiloh was destroyed (Judg. 18:31, see below).106
This evidence once again counters the twelfth century emergence theory. Clearly, the tribe of Dan was a preexisting entity with a prior history when it arrived at Laish early in the twelfth century. It was in existence well before the appearance of the twelfth century Iron I villages that presumably mark the beginning of Israelite culture according to the emergence theory.107
Abimelech at Shechem (Judg. 9)
For some eight hundred years, from the Middle Bronze through the Iron Age I periods, Shechem was an important highland urban center controlling the area from Megiddo to Jerusalem.108 It is no surprise, then, that Gideon's son Abimelech went to the leaders of Shechem to gain support for his failed attempt to become king of the Israelite tribes.109 Three archaeological discoveries at Shechem relate to the narrative of Judg. 9.
Temple of Baal-Berith
References to the "house of Baal-berith" (v. 4), "Beth-millo" (vv. 6, 20), "house of their god" (v. 27), "tower of Shechem" (vv. 46, 47, 49), and "temple of El-berith" (v. 46), all appear to be the same structure at Shechem.110 Berit is the Hebrew word for covenant, so the temple was for "Baal of the covenant." A large fortress (or migdal) temple discovered on the acropolis of Shechem has been identified as the temple of Judges 9.111 It was constructed in the seventeenth century B.C. and lasted until the destruction of the city by Abimelech in the twelfth century B.C. (see below). The largest temple yet found in Canaan, it measures 21.2 x 26.3 m, and has foundations 5.1 m thick that supported a multistoried superstructure of mud bricks and timber. On the east, two towers containing stairwells to the upper stories flanked the entrance. Inside, two rows of columns, three in each row, divided the span into a nave and two side aisles (cf.vv. 46-49).112
Fig. 12.3. The "Migdol" fortress-temple at Shechem, with a courtyard and sacred stone in front. The largest temple found in Canaan, it was most likely here that Joshua erected a sacred stone as a reminder of the covenant between Yahweh and the people of Israel (Josh. 24:26-7), and Abimelech became the self-appointed king of Israel (Judg. 9:6). (Credit: Bryant G. Wood)
In front of the temple was a courtyard with a large earthen and stone altar, 2.2 x 1.65 m and 35 cm high, 6.5 m from the temple entrance. An enormous limestone stela, or masseba, stood 2 m further to the southeast. It is 1.48 m wide, 42 cm thick, and, although broken, 1.45 m high. Since the temple existed in Joshua's day, it is possible this was the "large stone" which he set up "under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord" at Shechem (Josh. 24:26).113 The stela is undoubtedly the "pillar" where Abimelech was made king (v. 6).114
East Gate
The city gate from the time of Abimelech (vv. 3540) was excavated on the east side of the site,115 where it faced the agricultural fields of the Plain of Askar. It is a two-entryway gate, with an 8.0 x 6.55 m paved courtyard between the two entryways. On either side of the courtyard are guardrooms with stairways leading to upper stories. To enter, one approached from the south along a cobbled street, turned left, and passed through the two entryways 3.4 m wide, ca. 6.5 m apart.
Destruction Level
Abimelech "razed the city and sowed it with salt" (v. 45). Abundant evidence was found throughout the site that a violent destruction had occurred at the time of Abimelech.116 Lawrence Toombs, one of the excavators of Shechem, described the devastation as follows:
The Iron I city underwent violent destruction, which obliterated its buildings and left the site a wilderness of ruins. At the time of its destruction, the culture of the city was fully-developed Iron I. The end of the Iron I city is almost certainly to be attributed to its capture by Abimelek (Judges 9).117
These buildings were destroyed in a fierce conflagration. Burnt floors were found all over. Collapsed burnt bricks accumulated on these floors to a height of more than three feet. Some of the bricks had been baked by the blaze that had raged here. Roof collapse was discernible in many places. All this dramatic evidence of fire must be associated with the destruction of Shiloh by the Philistines after they defeated the Israelites near Ebenezer in the mid-eleventh century B.C.126
The published date for the destruction, ca. 1050 B.C., is based on pottery chronology, which is very imprecise, particularly for the Iron Age I period. A date anywhere from ca. 1104 B.C., Merrill's estimated date for the battle of Ebenezer,127 to ca. 1050 B.C. would accommodate the pottery types found in the destruction level.
Scholars many times raise the issue of the lack of extra biblical literary evidence to support this or that person or event in Israel's early history. Complete verification of every biblical text will never be achieved. Documentary evidence relating to early Israel is rare, so the expectation of finding epigraphic evidence to substantiate the activities of specific individuals, families, or tribes prior to the monarchy is unrealistic.128 However, when we examine the archaeological evidence that we do have that bears on events in the early history of Israel, and utilize the internally self-consistent chronology of the Old Testament, the findings of archaeology and the biblical record harmonize extremely well.
Editorial Note: This article was originally published in the book: Giving the Sense: Understanding and Using Old Testament Historical Texts. This book can be purchased in the ABR bookstore. Posted with permission.
1. Biblical references to the king of Egypt follow Egyptian scribal practice. Prior to the tenth century B.C. the title "Pharaoh" was used alone without a proper name. After the tenth century B.C. "Pharaoh" plus a proper name became common usage. K. A. Kitchen, "Pharaoh," in ISBE, 3:821.
2. James M. Weinstein, "Hyksos," in OEANE, 3:133.
3. Neutron activation analyses of pottery from Tell el-Dabca (= Avaris, the Hyksos capital) indicate that the Hyksos came from southern Palestine. Patrick E. McGovern, The Foreign Relations of the "Hyksos": A Neutron Activation Study of Middle Bronze Age Pottery from the Eastern Mediterranean (Oxford, England: Archaeopress, 2000).
4. John Rea, "The Time of the Oppression and the Exodus," Grace Journal 2 (1961): 7-8. All biblical quotations in this chapter are from the NASB.
5. Weinstein, "Hyksos," 3:133.
6. The use of the title "Pharaoh" for a Hyksos king (Exod. 1:11) is perfectly in keeping with the Hyksos practice of adopting Egyptian royal titularies (Weinstein, "Hyksos," 3:133).
7. John S. Holladay Jr., "The Eastern Nile Delta During the Hyksos and Pre-Hyksos Periods: Toward a Systemic/Socioeconomic Understanding," in The Hyksos: New Historical and Archaeological Perspectives, ed. Eliezer Oren (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1997), 198-209.
8. This was a known practice, as can be observed with such names as Bethel (named by Jacob in Gen. 28:19, but used retrospectively in Gen. 12:8 and 13:3), Dan (named by the Danites in Judg. 18:29, but used retrospectively in Gen. 14:14), and Samaria (named by Omri in 1 Kings 16:24, but used retrospectively in 1 Kings 13:32).
9. John Van Seters, "The Geography of the Exodus," in The Land That I Will Show You: Essays on the History and Archaeology of the Ancient Near East in Honour of J. Maxwell Miller, ed. David J. A. Clines and Philip R. Davies (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2001), 256-64; John S. Holladay Jr., "Maskhuta, Tell el-," in ABD, 4:588; idem, "Maskhuta, Tell el-," in OEANE, 3:432; Donald B. Redford, "Exodus I 11," VT 13 (1963): 403-8; idem, "Pithom," in Lexikon derAgyptologie, ed. Wolfgang Helck and Eberhard Otto (Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1982), 4:1054-58; and idem, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times (Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1992), 451 n. 92. Hans Goedicke ("Papyrus Anastasi VI 51-61," Studien ztn Altagyptischen Kultur 14 [1987]: 93), and James Hoffmeier (Israel in Egypt [New York: Oxford University Press, 1997], 119-21), however, prefer Tell el-Retabeh (14 km. west of Tell el-Maskhuta) as Pithom.
10. See Holladay, "Maskhuta, Tell el-," and Redford, "Exodus I 11," in previous note.
11. John S. Holladay Jr., "Pithom," in OEAE, 3:50.
12. John S. Holladay Jr., Cities of the Delta, Part III: Tell el-Maskhuta, American Research Center in Egypt Reports (Malibu, Calif: Undena, 1982), 44-47; Patricia Paice, John S. Holladay Jr., and Edwin C. Brock, "The Middle Bronze Age/Second Intermediate Period Houses at Tell el-Maskhuta," in Hous und Palast im Alton Agypten, ed. Manfred Bietak (Vienna: Osterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, 1996), 159-73; and Holladay, "Eastern Nile Delta," 188-94. For summary reports, see Holladay, "Pithom," in ABD, 4:588-92; and idem, "Pithom," in OEANE, 3:432-37.
13. The author was a staff member of the Tell el-Maskhuta excavation during the 1979, 1981, and 1983 seasons. During the 1983 season he supervised the excavation of the major portion of a large 11 x 13.6 m Hyksos workshop in Square R7 in which industrial activities involving high-temperature hearths and grinding stones were carried out.
14. Holladay, "Eastern Nile Delta," 190.
15. Holladay, "Eastern Nile Delta," 209; and idem, "Pithom," in OEAE, 51.
16. Van Seters, "Geography of the Exodus," 264-67; and Manfred Bietak, Avaris and Piramesse Archaeological Exploration in the Eastern Nile Delta (London: British Academy, 1986), 278-83.
17. Manfred Bietak, Avaris, the Capital of the Hyksos: Recent Excavations at Tell el-Dabca (London British Museum, 1996) 9, 19.
18. Ibid., 40.
19. Ibid., 82.
20. Edgar B. Pusch, "Piramesse," in OEAE, 3:48-50.
21. Eugene H. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), 70-71.
22. Bietak, Avaris and Piramesse, 237-38; idem, "Egypt and Canaan During the Middle Bronze Age," BASOR 281 (1991): 27-72; idem, Avaris, the Capital, 10-21; idem, "The Center of Hyksos Rule: Avaris (Tell el-Dabca)," in The Hyksos: New Historical and Archaeological Perspectives, 97-100; and idem, "Dabca, Tell el-," in OEANE, 1:351. The absolute dates of the Tell el-Dabca phases are somewhat controversial since Bietak has adopted an ultralow Egyptian chronology that is being challenged by a number of scholars. See James M. Weinstein, "Reflections on the Chronology of Tell el-Dabca," in Egypt, the Aegean and the Levant, ed. W. V. Davies and L. Schofield (London: British Museum Press, 1995), 84-90.
23. Bietak, "Center of Hyksos Rule," 97.
24. Bietak, "Egypt and Canaan During the Middle Bronze Age," 32.
25. Bietak, Avaris and Piramesse, 237; and idem, "Egypt and Canaan During the Middle Bronze Age," 32.
26. Bietak, "Center of Hyksos Rule," 98-99.
27. Bryant G. Wood, "The Sons of Jacob: New Evidence for the Presence of the Israelites in Egypt," Bible and Spade 10 (1997): 55-56.
28. John S. Holladay Jr., "House, Israelite," in ABD, 3:308-18.
29. Wood, "Sons of Jacob," 56-58. David Rohl was the first to make this association in his book Pharaohs and Kings: A Biblical Quest (New York: Crown, 1995), 360-67. Although I do not agree with his revised Egyptian chronology (see my "David Rohl's Revised Egyptian Chronology: A View from Palestine," NEASB 45 [2000]: 41-47), his arguments relating the tomb to Joseph have merit.
30. Bietak, Avaris, the Capital, 67-83; idem, "Center of Hyksos Rule," 115-24; idem, OKAE 1:353; Manfred Bietak, Josef Dorner, and Peter Janosi, "Ausgrabungen in dem Palastbezirk von Avaris. Vorbericht Tell el-Dabca/cEzbet Helmi 1993-2000," Egypt and the Levant 11 (2001): 36-101; and Josef Dorner, "A Late Hyksos Water-Supply System at Ezbet Hilme," Egyptian Archaeology 16 (2000): 12-13.
31. Bietak, Avaris, the Capital, 72; idem, "Center of Hyksos Rule," 124; idem, OEAE, 1: 353; and Bietak, Dorner, and Janosi, "Ausgrabungen," 38.
32. Kathleen M. Kenyon, Digging Up Jericho (London: Ernest Benn, 1957), 261-62; and Thomas A. Holland, "Jericho," in OEANE, 3:223.
33. Kenyon, Digging Up Jericho, 262; idem, "Jericho," in Archaeology and Old Testament Study, ed. D. Winton Thomas (Oxford: Clarendon, 1967) 265-67; idem, "Jericho: Tell es-Sultan," in NEAEHL, 2:680; idem, The Bible in Recent Archaeology (Atlanta: John Knox, 1978) 33-37; and idem, Archaeology in the Holy Land, 4th ed. (London: Ernest Benn, 1979) 182.
34. John Garstang, "Jericho and the Biblical Story," in Wonders of the Past, ed. J. A. Hammerton (New York: Wise, 1937), 1222.
35. John Garstang, "Jericho: City and Necropolis, Fourth Report," Liverpool Annals of Archaeology and Anthropology 21 (1934): 118-30, plates 13-44.
36. Bryant G. Wood, "Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho? A New Look at the Archaeological Evidence," BAR 16, No. 2 (1990): 50.
37. Ibid., 51-52.
38. Kenyon, Archaeology and Old Testament Study, 162-64; and Ernst Sellin and Carl Watzinger, Jericho: Die Ergebnisse der Ausgrabungen (Leipzig, Germany: J. C. Hinrichs, 1913; reprint, Osnabruck, Germany: Otto Zeller, 1973), 58.
39. John Garstang, "The Walls of Jericho: The Marston-Melchett Expedition of 1931," PEFQS 63 (1931): 193-94; idem, "Fourth Report," 123, 128, 129; idem, "The Fall of Bronze Age Jericho."' PEFQS 67 (1935): 61-68; idem, "Jericho and the Biblical Story," 1218; Kenyon, Archaeology and Old Testament Study, 171; idem, Excavations at Jericho, vol. 3, The Architecture and Stratigraphy of the-Tell (London: British School of Archaeology, 1981), 369-70; and idem, Digging Up Jericho, 230.
40. The word describing how the city wall fell, tahtêh in Joshua 6:5, 20, is more accurately translated "beneath itself" rather than "flat."
41. Kenyon, Excavations at Jericho, 3:110.
42. Sellin and Watzinger, Jericho, Blatt 13, Tafel III; the situation of Rahab's house, beqir hahômâ in Joshua 2:15 is better translated "against the vertical surface of the (city) wall," rather than the variety of renderings found in modern translations.
43. Garstang, "Walls of Jericho," 192; idem, "Fourth Report," 122-23; idem, "Fall of Bronze Age Jericho," 68; idem "Jericho and the Biblical Story," 1218; Kenyon, Excavations at Jericho, 3:369-70; idem, Archaeology and Old Testament Study, 171.
44. Kenyon, Excavations at Jericho, 3:370.
45. John Wilkinson, Jerusalem Pilgrims Before the Crusades (Warminster, England: Aris & Phillips, 1977), table: Units of Measurement, v.
46. G.S.P. Freeman-Grenville, Palestine in the Fourth Century a.d.: The Onomasticon by Eusebius of Caesarea (Winona Lake, Ind.: Eisenbrauns, 2003) 4:27.
47. Edward Robinson, Biblical Researches in Palestine and the Adjacent Regions: A Journal of Travels in the Years 1838 and 1852, 3d ed. (London: John Murray, 1867; reprint, Jerusalem: Universitas Booksellers, 1970), 1:449.
48. Edward Robinson, Later Biblical Researches in Palestine, and in the Adjacent Regions: A Journal of Travels in the Year 1852 (Boston: Crocker and Brewster, 1856), 635.
49. Robinson, Biblical Researches in Palestine and the Adjacent Regions, 449.
50. W. F. Albright, "Ai and Beth-Aven," in Excavations and Results at Tell el-Ful (Gibeah of Saul), AASOR 4, ed. Benjamin W. Bacon (New Haven, Conn.: American Schools of Oriental Research, 1924), 141-49.
51. W. F. Albright, The Biblical Period from Abraham to Ezra (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), 29.
52. Robert E. Cooley, "Ai," in OEANE, 1:32-33.
53. David P. Livingston, "Further Considerations on the Location of Bethel at El-Bireh," PEQ 126 (1994): 154-59, and further references there.
54. Beitin is more likely Beth Aven. See Bryant G. Wood, "Beth Aven: A Scholarly Conundrum." Bible and Spade 12 (1999): 101-8.
55. Robinson, Biblical Researches in Palestine and the Adjacent Regions, 448.
56. E. Sellin, "Mittheilungen von meiner Palastinareise 1899," Mittheilungen und Nachrichtai des Deutschen Palaestina-Vereins 6 (1900): 1.
57. The large Early Bronze Age ruin at et-Tell, on the other hand, should be identified as the landmark site of Ai in Abraham's day (Gen. 12:8). It is east of El-Bireh (Bethel) and the modern Arabic name "et-Tell" means "the ruin," as does the Hebrew rendering of the name, h cay, which always includes the definite article. The name could have later migrated to Kh. el-Maqatir only 1 km to the west and then, following the destruction by the Israelites, been changed to Kh. el-Maqatir which means "the ruin of the place of the rising of sacrificial smoke." The rising of the smoke from the signal fire set by the ambush force was the signal for Joshua to begin the h ram: the offering up of the people of Ai as a sacrifice to Yahweh (Josh. 8:21-26). After Ai was plundered, there was further sacrificial smoke when Joshua set fire to the fortress (Josh. 8: 27 28).
58. For further details, see Bryant G. Wood, "The Search for Joshua's Ai: Excavations at Kh. el-Maqatir," Bible and Spade 12 (1999): 21-30; idem, "Kh. el-Maqatir 1999 Dig Report," Bible and Spade 12 (1999): 109-14; idem, "Khirbet el-Maqatir, 1995-1998," IEJ 50 (2000): 123-30; idem, "Khirbet el-Maqatir, 1999," IEJ 50 (2000): 249-54; idem, "Kh. el-Maqatir 2000 Dig Report," Bible and Spade 13 (2000): 67-72; and idem, "Khirbet el-Maqatir, 2000," IEJ 51 (2001): 246-52.
59. Amnon Ben-Tor, "Hazor," in NEAEHL, 2:595.
60. William L. Moran, The Amarna Letters (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1992), 2.35, 289.
61. Yigael Yadin, "The Fifth Season of Excavations at Hazor, 1968-1969," BA 32 (1969): 52; idem, Hazor the Head of All Those Kingdoms, Schweich Lectures of the British Academy 1970 (London: Oxford University Press, 1972), 103, 125; idem, Hazor: The Rediscovery of a Great Citadel of the Bible (New York: Random House, 1975), 260, 261; Ben-Tor, "Hazor," in NEAEHL, 2:604; and Amnon Ben-Tor et al., Hazor V: An Account of the Fifth Season of Excavation, 1968, James A. de Rothschild Expedition at Hazor (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1997), 102.
62. Amnon Ben-Tor, "Tel Hazor, 2001," IEJ 51 (2001): 235-8, esp. 238.
63. Yadin, Hazor the Head of All Those Kingdoms 45. 100-1.
64. Yigael Yadin et al., Hazor III-IV: An Account of the Third and Fourth Seasons of Excavation, 1951-1958, Text, James A. de Rothschild Expedition at Hazor (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1989) 228.
65. Yadin, Hazor the Head of All Those Kingdoms, 80; and Yadin et al., Hazor III-IV, 227.
66. Concerning Area C, see Yigael Yadin et al., Hazor I: An Account of the First Season of Excavations, 1955, James A. de Rothschild Expedition at Hazor. (Jerusalem: Magnes, 1958), 73; and idem, Hazor II: An Account of the Second Season of Excavations, 1956, James A. de Rothschild Expedition at Hazor (Jerusalem: Magnes, 1960), 92. Concerning Area K, see Yadin et al., Hazor III-IV, 287. Concerning Area P, see Ben-Tor et al., Hazor V, 382.
67. For an introduction to the Amarna Letters, see William L. Moran, The Amarna Letters, xiii-xxxix; and Nadav Na'aman, "Amarna Letters," in ABD, 1:174-81.
68. The letters are from cities the Israelites could not capture during the Conquest: Megiddo (Josh. 17:11-12; Judg. 1:27), Gezer (Josh. 16:10; Judg. 1:29), and Jerusalem (Josh. 15:63; Judg. 1:21).
69. Michael C. Astour, "The Hapiru in the Amarna Texts: Basic Points of Controversy," UF 31 (1999): 41.
70. Ibid., 31.
71. Ibid., 40.
72. The letters are referred to by the notation EA, for el-Amarna, followed by a number. Quotations are from Moran, The Amarna Letters.
73. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, 164.
74. For additional correlations between the Amarna Letters and the biblical record, see S. Douglas Waterhouse, "Who Were the Habiru of the Amarna Letters?"Journal of the Adventist Theological Society 12 (2001): 31-42.
75. Leon Wood, Distressing Days of the Judges (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1975), 410; John H.Walton, Chronological and Background Charts of the Old Testament (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1978), 48; cf. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, 163.
76. Garstang, "Jericho: City and Necropolis," 106-10; idem, "The Story of Jericho: Further Light on the Biblical Narrative," AJSL 58 (1941): 368-72; idem, "The Story of Jericho: Further Light on the Biblical Narrative," PEQ 73 (1941): 168-71; and John Garstang and J. B. E. Garstang, The Story of Jericho, rev. ed. (London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1948), 177-80.
77. Kenyon, Digging Up Jericho, 261-63; idem, Archaeology and Old Testament Study, 272-3; idem, The Bible and Recent Archaeology, 38-40; idem, Archaeology in the Holy Land, 208; idem, Excavations at Jericho, 3:371; idem, "Jericho," in ISBE, 2:993-94; and idem, "Jericho: Tell es-Sultan," in NEAEHL, 2:680.
78. Garstang, "Story of Jericho," AJSL, 371-72; idem, "Story of Jericho," PEQ, 73, 171; and Garstang and Garstang, The Story of Jericho, 180.
79. Kenyon, Digging Up Jericho, 261; idem, Archaeology and Old Testament Study, 273; idem, The Bible and Recent Archaeology, 39; idem, Archaeology in the Holy Land, 208; idem, Excavations at Jericho, 3:371; idem, "Jericho," in ISBE, 2:994; idem, "Jericho: Tell es-Sultan," in NEAEHL, 2:680.
80. Piotr Bienkowski, Jericho in the Late Bronze Age (Warminster, Wiltshire, England: Aris & Phillips, 1986), 120.
81. Ibid., 118.
82. Baruch Halpern, The First Historians: The Hebrew Bible and History (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1998), 39-75; and idem, "The Assassination of Eglon," BRev 4, no. 6 (1998): 33-41, 44.
83. Garstang, "Jericho: City and Necropolis," pi. XIV; Halpern, First Historians, 53; and idem, "The Assassination of Eglon," 37.
84. Jabin was also the name of the king of Hazor in the time of Joshua (Josh. 11:1). Texts from Hazor, Mari, and Egypt attest that Jabin was a dynastic name at Hazor during the Middle and Late Bronze Ages. See Bryant G. Wood, "Jabin, King of Hazor," Bible and Spade 8 (1995): 83-85.
85. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, 164.
86. Amnon Ben-Tor, "The Fall of Canaanite HazorThe 'Who' and 'When' Questions," in Mediterranean Peoples in Transition, Thirteenth to Early Tenth Centuries B.C.E., ed. Semour Gitin, Amihai Mazar, and Ephraim Stern (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society, 1998), 45667; Amnon Ben-Tor and Maria Teresa Rubiato, "Excavating Hazor Part II: Did the Israelites Destroy the Canaanite City?" BAR 25, no. 3 (1999): 22-39.
87. Ben-Tor, "The Fall of Canaanite Hazor," 456, 465; Ben-Tor and Rubiato, "Excavating Hazor Part II," 38-39.
88. Doron Ben-Ami, "The Iron Age I at Tel Hazor in light of the Renewed Excavations," IEJ 51 (2001): 148-70.
89. Interestingly, the new occupants did not settle in the area of the Canaanite palace. Ben-Ami suggests this may have been the result of a "stigma" being attached to the structure that did not allow the new occupants to settle there (ibid., 167-68).
90. W. M. Flinders Petrie, Six Temples at Thebes in 1896 (London: Quaritch, 1897), 13; pls. 13,14.
91. James K. Hoffmeier, trans., "The (Israel) Stela of Merneptah (2.6)," in COS, 2:41.
92. Ibid.
93. Ibid.
94. K. A. Kitchen, "The Physical Text of Merenptah's Victory Hymn (The 'Israel Stela')," JSSEA 24 (1994): 74-75. In more recent Egyptological studies, the more commonly known name, "Merneptah," is being replaced by "Merenptah."
95. William F. Albright, "The Israelite Conquest of Canaan in the Light of Archaeology," BASOR 74 (1939): 22; Ronald J. Williams, "The Israel Stele of Merneptah," Documents of Old Testament Times, ed. D. W. Thomas (New York: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1958), 140-41; Lawrence E. Stager, "Merneptah, Israel and the Sea Peoples: New Light on an Old Relief," Erlsr 18 (1985): 61; John J. Bimson, "Merneptah's Israel and Recent Theories of Israelite Origins, "JSOT 49 (1991): 22-24; Michael G. Hasel, "Israel in the Merneptah Stela," BASOR 296 (1994): 54, 56 n. 12; Hoffmeier, "The (Israel) Stela of Merneptah (2.6)," COS, 2:41; and Waterhouse, "Who Were the Habiru," 35.
96. Bimson, "Merneptah's Israel."
97. Bryant G. Wood, "The Philistines Enter Canaan," BAR 17, no. 6 (November-December 1991): 44-52, 89-92; and Paul W. Ferris Jr., "Sorek, Valley of," in ABD, 6:159.
98. Avraham Biran, Biblical Dan (Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society/Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, 1994), 126.
99. Avraham Malamat, "'... After the Manner of the Sidonians...and How They Were far from the Sidonians...' (Judges 18:7)," Erlsr 23 (1992): 194-95 (Hebrew), English summary 153.
100. Biran, Biblical Dan, 114; and Avraham Biran and Rachel Ben-Dov, Dan II: A Chronicle of the Excavations and the Late Bronze Age "Mycenaean" Tomb (Jerusalem: Nelson Glueck School of Biblical Archaeology/Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, n.d.), 228.
101. J. Gunneweg et al., "On the Origin of a Mycenaean IIIA Chariot Krater and Other Related Mycenaean Pottery from Tomb 387 at Laish/Dan (By Neutron Analysis)," Erlsr 23 (1992): 59-62; and Biran, Biblical Dan, 116.
102. Biran, Biblical Dan, 126-35; A. Biran, "Tel Dan: Biblical Texts and Archaeological Data," in Scripture and Other Artifacts, ed. Michael D. Coogan, J. Cheryl Exum, and Lawrence E. Stagei (Louisville: Westminster/John Knox, 1994), 4-5.
103. A. Biran, "The Collared-rim Jars and the Settlement of the Tribe of Dan," in Recent Excavation in Israel: Studies in Iron Age Archaeology, ed. Seymour Gitin and William G. Dever (Winona Lake. Ind.: Eisenbrauns, 1989), 71-96.
104. Joseph Yellin and Jan Gunneweg, "Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis and the Origin of the Iron Age I Collared-rim Jars and Pithoi from Tel Dan," in Recent Excavations in Israel Studies in Iron Age Archaeology, 133-41.
105. Biran, Biblical Dan, 135-42; and David Ilan, "Dan," in OEANE, 2:109.
106. Biran, Biblical Dan, 138; and idem, "Tel Dan," 6.
107. Bimson, "Merneptah's Israel," 3-13.
108. For the significance of Shechem at the time of the Conquest, see Bryant G. Wood, "The Role of Shechem in the Conquest of Canaan," in To Understand the Scriptures: Essays in Honor of William H. Shea, ed. David Merling (Berrien Springs, Mich.: Institute of Archaeology/Siegfried H. Horn Archaeological Museum, 1997), 245-56.
109. The word used in Judges 9 for the rulers of Shechem, ba'al, is also found in the Amarna Letters. See Moran, The Amarna Letters, 175 n. 5.
110. Edward F. Campbell Jr., "Judges 9 and Biblical Archaeology," in The Word of the Lord Shall Go Forth: Essays in Honor of David Noel Freedman in Celebration of His Sixtieth Birthday, ed. Carol L. Meyers and M. O'Connor (Winona Lake, Ind.: Eisenbrauns, 1983), 269; Lawrence E. Toombs, "Shechem (Place)," in ABD, 5:1184; Lawrence E. Stager, "The Fortress-Temple at Shechem and the 'House of El, Lord of the Covenant,'" in Realia Dei: Essays in Archaeology and Biblical Interpretation in Honor of Edward F. Campbell Jr., at His Retirement, ed. Prescott H. Williams and Theodore Hiebert (Atlanta: Scholars Press, 1999), 242, 245; idem, "The Shechem Temple Where Abimelech Massacred a Thousand," BAR 29, no. 4 (2003): 26-35, 66, 68-69; and Edward F. Campbell Jr. and James F. Ross, "The Excavation of Shechem and the Biblical Tradition," BA 26(1963): 16.
111. Stager, "Fortress-Temple at Shechem"; idem, "The Shechem Temple."
112. Stager, "Fortress-Temple at Shechem," 229, 243-45; idem, "The Shechem Temple," 29-31.
113. Stager, "Fortress-Temple at Shechem," 242; and Campbell and Ross, "The Excavation of Shechem," 11.
114. Stager, "Fortress-Temple at Shechem," 242; idem, "The Shechem Temple," 31, 33; and Campbell and Ross, "The Excavation of Shechem," 11.
115. G. Ernest Wright, Shechem: The Biography of a Biblical City (London: Gerald Duckworth, 1965), 71-76; Robert G. Boling, Judges, AB (Garden City, N.Y.: 1975), 179; Campbell, "Judges 9," 265-8; Toombs, "Shechem (Place)," 5:1183-84; Joe Seger, "Shechem," in OEANE, 5:22; and Campbell and Ross, "The Excavation of Shechem," 16.
116. Wright, Shechem: Biography, 101-2; idem, "Shechem," in Archaeology and Old Testament Study, ed. D. Winton Thomas (Oxford, England: Clarendon, 1967), 364; Lawrence E. Toombs, "The Stratigraphy of Tell Balatah (Ancient Shechem)," ADAJ 17 (1972): 106; idem, "The Stratification of Tell Balatah (Shechem)," BASOR 223 (1976): 58, 59; idem, "Shechem: Problems of the Early Israelite Era," in Symposia: Celebrating the Seventy-Fifth Anniversary of the Founding of the American Schools of Oriental Research (1900-1975), ed. Frank Moore Cross (Cambridge, Mass.: American Schools of Oriental Research, 1979), 70-73, 78; idem, "Shechem (Place)," in ABD, 5:1178, 1184; idem, "Shechem: Tell Balatah," in NEAEHL, 4:1347, 1352; and Seger, "Shechem," in OEANE, 5:22.
117. Toombs, "Shechem: Problems," 73.
118. Seger, "Shechem," in OEANE, 5:22.
119. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, 170.
120. Israel Finkelstein, ed., "Excavation at Shiloh 1981-1984," Tel Aviv 12 (1985): 168; idem, "Shiloh Yields Some, but Not All, of Its Secrets," BAR 12, no. 1 (January-February 1986): 40; idem. "Seilun, Khirbet," in ABD, 5:1072; idem, "Shiloh: Renewed Excavations," in NEAEHL 4:1369; Israel Finkelstein, Shlomo Bunimovitz, and Zvi Lederman, Shiloh: The Archaeology of a Biblical Site, Tel Aviv University Sonia and Marco Nadler Institute of Archaeology Monograph Series 10 (Tel Aviv: Institute of Archaeology of Tel Aviv University, 1993), 384.
121. Finkelstein, "Excavation at Shiloh," 131-38; idem, "Shiloh Yields Some...of Its Secrets," 37-39; Finkelstein, Bunimovitz, and Lederman, Shiloh: The Archaeology of a Biblical Site, 20- 31.
122. Finkelstein, "Excavation at Shiloh 1981-1984," 169; cf. Finkelstein, Bunimovitz, and Lederman. Shiloh: The Archaeology of a Biblical Site, 385.
123. Finkelstein, "Excavation at Shiloh," 168; cf. Finkelstein, Bunimovitz, and Lederman, Shiloh: The Archaeology of a Biblical Site, 383.
124. Merrill estimates the battle of Ebenezer and the death of Eli took place ca. 1104 B.C. (Kingdom of Priests, 176). Since Eli judged Israel forty years (1 Sam. 4:18), he began his judgeship ca. 1144 B.C.
125. Finkelstein, "Excavation at Shiloh," 169; idem, "Shiloh Yields Some...of Its Secrets," 41; idem, "Seilun, Khirbet," in ABD, 5:1072; cf. Finkelstein, Bunimovitz, and Lederman, Shiloh: The Archaeology of a Biblical Site, 384-85.
126. Finkelstein "Shiloh Yields Some…of Its Secrets," 39; and idem, "Shiloh: Renewed Excavations," in NEAEHL, 4:1368.
127. Cf. Merrill, Kingdom of Priests, 176 n. 83.
128. K. A. Kitchen, "The Patriarchs Revisited: A Reply to Dr. Ronald S. Hendel," NEASB 43 (1998): 55-56.
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I am toatally fascinated by the Exodus story. Please keep me advised as to new comments.
Ray Hurley - 8/6/2008 7:15:42 AM
in regarding the hyksos, i kind of agree with david downs and john ashton when they put forth the theory that the hyksos were the amalekites, because it would make sense and fit in with the description given by manethos, that the conquering army walked in and took over without resistance.
what better time than when the egyptian army was destroyed and the pharaoh killed. too often those that date do so out of convenience for their personal perspectives and theories and place mss. or events in the wrong time with little or nothing to go on.
as for the amalekites, they were under God's curse and that no one would 'remember them from generation to generation' and we can see that fulfilled with the hyksos. no one knows who they are or where they came from, let alone where they went.
i do not think that it is needed to have an entirely new group of people take over a land to have a king NOT remember Joseph. a generation after his death is sufficient to achieve that attitude.
in reading josephus' quote i can see nothing in there that would make thehyksos contemporary with the israelites whenthe were slaves. but i await your opinion on this.
dr. david tee - 8/7/2008 7:07:20 PM
What about Cushan-Rishathaim? I don't remember the kingdom of Mitanni ever reaching so far as Samaria. And, can ABR please create a clear, coherent chronology of the Judges period, like I did with my (probably wrong) 591 year chronology on the "Debunking 'The Exodus Decoded'" page on this website?
E. Harding - 12/13/2009 4:25:16 AM
i will disagree with Dr.Wood on his claim that the Hyksos would be the only people who 'did not know' Josephus for the phrase can mean other things and not that there was an incomplete history.
I think that that idea is far fetched for it implies that the Egyptians could not wirte their own recent history and be complete or accurate about the details. Surely, people would still have been alive who lived under Jospeh's influence at the time of the rise of the new Pharaoh.
All that phrase is saying is that the new Pharaoh wasn't alive when Joseph died.
dr. david t - 4/13/2010 7:31:33 PM
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Sunday, 29 August 2010
Toilets, the Transgendered, and the Law
Should equality law enable transgendered people to use the toliet of their choice, in respect of either public toilets or toilets on private premises (eg, pubs and restaurants)?
Or should the law relating to, say, breaches of the peace be used to prevent transgendered people, especially male to female (MTF), intruding into the "space" reserved for a particular gender?
These questions are prompted by a Twitter exchange I had today with campaigner Christine Burns following yesterday's blogpost on the extent to which the law should regulate how one dresses.
(The exchange is here.)
Any thoughts?
No purely anonymous comments will be published; always use a name for ease of reference by other commenters.
51 comments:
- JuliaM said...
I really can't see the problem - assuming they will use closed stalls anyway (if male to female) then what does it matter?
I realise female to male is a bit trickier where the men's toilets are mostly urinal-style, but even they have at least one or more stall types to use, don't they?
- 29 August 2010 12:11
- Tony Lloyd said...
A while ago I wondered out loud why we don't just have unisex toilets. We manage with unisex toilets in the home, why not everywhere else.
I was told, rather forcibly, that it was because we men would leave the ladies in a complete mess as we are hopeless slobs who can't even put the lid down etc. etc.
That would make the problem one of gender roles (ie how one acts) rather than sex (biological make up).
So if we make "Ladies" and "Gents" refer to gender roles any transgendered would be self selecting. Wherever they thought was right would be.
- 29 August 2010 12:18
- chris said...
- 29 August 2010 12:25
- Della said...
I think anyone who is opting in to want to use the ladies, particularly in bars, at gigs or McDonald's on Oxford Street, is insane....there's always a massive queue!!
Then again, if unisex toilets means we all have the option of sharing toilets, then surely the queues will be shared and us girls can get in and out a lot quicker!!
I'm all for it!!
- 29 August 2010 12:31
- Zoe OConnell said...
Sadly, we're approaching a point where there will be active primary legislation on this matter and it's not going to be of benefit to the trans community.
I see you're already aware of the Toiletgate incident in 2008 - it was actually an off-duty LGBT police liaison officer who insisted on seeing a transwomans Gender Recognition Certificate. That flags an important issue for the trans community - laws that are supposed to help (Gender Recognition Act) can be misinterpreted and used against us as it was I understand it illegal for him to ask to see it, let alone make it a condition of access to the toilets. Importantly to my next point, a butch dyke was also denied access to the womens toilets when a steward believed she might be trans but I believe was allowed access when she threatened to punch the steward!
This all leads up to the Equalities Act 2010 which has caused quite a fuss in the trans community - see here and here for background but basically, come October is will be perfectly legal to discriminate in many cases based on trans status or perceived trans status. (Given that in most cases, people aren't going to know for sure if someone is trans or not - as far as I'm aware, it's impossible to legally prove one is not trans) This is quite worrying, because it gives places like hospitals free reign to do what they like on the basis it might make other service users uncomfortable. Even if the legality is questionable at the time, trans people are often not in a position to defend themselves if, for example, they're trying to access sheltered accommodation, counselling services or healthcare.
Once it's "common knowledge" that it's permissible to discriminate, people will latch on to that even if they're in the wrong.
@JuliaM - I'm aware of at least two cisgendered (That is, non-trans) men who will never use the urinals because of genital issues. I don't know the details but I know they do not consider themselves intersex at all.
- 29 August 2010 12:32
- Alan McIntosh said...
Surely, a transgendered individual using a female cubicle is less likely to be the victim of abuse etc if they use a woman's toilet, than they are if they use a male toilet?
- 29 August 2010 12:33
- Alan McIntosh said...
Lol, I would add with regards Tony's comments, at Uni I worked in the student union and had the unfortunate pleasure of having to go in a clean up the vomit etc from toilets regardless of whether they were male or female.
As an impartial judge and having seen a woman's toilet on a night out, I have to say the suggestion the women's toilets were kept in better condition by their users is laughable.
Give me the guys anytime.
- 29 August 2010 12:38
- Matt Greenall said...
I hope this comment is not too much of a deviation but the questions in this post remind me of an issue around arrests of transgender people. MTF transgender sex workers who I worked with in Madagascar, when they got locked up, would be put in male cells leading to harassment and sometimes violence. I understand this is quite common in other countries too.
- 29 August 2010 12:39
- Zoe OConnell said...
@Alan - After the Toiletgate Pride London incident, the stewards went back to refusing entry to transwomen to the female toilets. Apparently one transwoman was sexually assaulted in the mens toilets as a result so yes, it can and does happen.
- 29 August 2010 12:42
- Adam Fish said...
I actually became somewhat involved in a case like this earlier this year. We argued that for a publican to refuse access to the correct toilet for a trans woman is a violation of the 2008 amendments to the Sex Discrimination Regulations 1975. The case never went as far as court, as the pub chain in question conceded we were right once they realised we were serious.
The arguments that people usually make against allowing trans people to use the right facilities tend to revolve around the fiction that this would allow cis men to infiltrate the toilets and rape women as if in some torture-porn version of Some Like It Hot. That this has never actually ever happened doesn't discourage some right-wing people from using it as an emotive argument. You can find my (somewhat sarcastic) deconstruction of this here: http://bit.ly/a4JUgm
- 29 August 2010 12:44
- blue-cat said...
Ideally we should have:
1 ~ Urinals for stand up point & pee
2 ~ Cubicles for sitting down
3 ~ Disabled
4 ~ Family (for parents & kids)
Nearby, or the anti-chamber, should have an area for baby changing and a separate nursing area.
None of this needs gender designations therefore no 'you are in the wrong loo'. Simple!
Twitter: FuyoBC
- 29 August 2010 12:46
- KateKatV said...
To me, this is about where we draw pretty arbitrary boundaries and about what happens in single-sex toilets. The layout of those means that the reasons for discomfort would be different. As I understand it there is the opportunity for gentlemen to glimpse others' genitalia. That is not the case with ladies, where issues are more of modesty. When I check the mirror and discover the lining of my skirt is hitched up I expect anyone else there to understand why I have just stuck my hand up my skirt and started wiggling around, though I would prefer not to have to reveal my underwear to anyone. Cubicles are often a bit small to get full or long skirts just so. Also there's brushing hair and doing make-up, which many women prefer not to do in public. There is a convention that one does not watch a woman doing her make-up unless she is a friend.
What I don't like is when women bring boys into the ladies. I understand why they do, but I don't like having kids staring at me brushing my hair etc. and it's a nuisance if my skirt is twisted and there is a queue to get back into a cubicle. Also, one of the problems with unisex toilets is the puddles on the floor, which are a menace if wearing a skirt, and boys do not have good aim.
A transgendered person, regardless of 'direction', would understand the modesty issues so I can't really understand why anyone would mind.
With regard to the gent's, there the issues are rather different and opaque to me. However, what about gay men? Surely the issues are much the same as with transgendered people? Where do you draw the line? Until we have ten different loos everywhere - one for each of hetero, homosexual, transgendered, children and disabled - we'll just have to work with dress.
If you really want to get worked up about loo etiquette, what about disabled ones? When my back is bad I really appreciate the disabled loos that don't have the special key, but do not appreciate having to wait because someone else can't be bothered with the stairs to the main loo.
- 29 August 2010 12:49
- Dru Marland said...
I'm with Tony on this one; while the definitions of 'sex' and 'gender' are slippery and liable to evolution, I still see sex as what we are and gender as what we perform. So it seems self-evident that we should all use the toilets according to the gender we present as. And the notion of 'transgender' people 'intruding' upon space reserved for a particular gender manages to sound at least mildly offensive. You can usually tell what gender role someone is performing. And if you can't, are you going to call them out on it, and if so, why?
- 29 August 2010 12:50
- Zoe OConnell said...
@KateKatV - I've had the "What do I do with my son when he needs to go to the toilet issue" before now, I'm not too comfortable taking him into the ladies but he's only just now got to the stage where he's comfortable going into the mens on his own.
Going of at a tangent but perhaps interesting discussion points to illustrate that this isn't just a trans issue: Pre-transition, I also had trouble with baby changing being in the ladies. Luckily no mother I've ever met would object to a man going into the ladies to use baby changing if he loudly announces his presence and the reason why! I've also had trouble with RADAR locks on "accessible" toilets when alone with a child in a pushchair when the only other toilets are up a flight of stairs and there are no staff about with a key for the accessible toilets. I did write to the RADAR scheme at the time this started to become a problem to ask them to make sure there was provision for parents with pushchairs when pushing their scheme but they didn't reply.
- 29 August 2010 12:59
- NicholBrummer said...
If transgender people dress to their preferred gender.. then who'd notice?
Next question is if there should at all be a law that defines how toilets should be allocated. Is this not best left to (local) etiquette?
- 29 August 2010 13:07
Why do we need gendered toilets at all? I have heard an argument for two toilets: unisex, and "man express".
Nevertheless, such quibbling doesn't make the issue go away - communal showers in swimming pools will be gendered for the forseeable future. Given @christineburns's interesting comments about actual vs perceived risk, I think the best thing is not to criminalise being in the wrong toilet/changing room but to criminalise actual sexual harassment or assault resulting from being in the wrong changing room. As a man, I have no qualms about sharing facilities with gay men; I can't see why I should mind sharing with FTM transgendered men either. I can and should, however, get justice for any inappropriate behaviour in toilets and changing rooms as and when it happens. (Obviously, it's hard for me to speak on behalf of cis- or trans-women.)
- 29 August 2010 13:38
In ightclubs, etc, it's not uncommon for women to use male toilets to avoid queues. If it's ok when everyone's pissed, why is it wrong when sobre ?
Also smacks of "we can so we will" bullying of minorities power trip. It can make some people with power feel more 'normal' if they can alienate marginal groups.
Maybe the complainers have toilet 'issues' themselves ?
- 29 August 2010 13:39
- Cosmic Navel Lint said...
Should the law be involved in which toilet a transgendered person uses?
Yes, in the same way that the Law has dominion over the manner and place in which a person sleeps.
- 29 August 2010 13:56
- edge of the map said...
It's unfortunate that the world in general is not as grown up as you guys.
As a woman, I would have no trouble accepting transsexuals at any stage of transition, or any style of dress in the 'ladies'. They suffer enough routine abuse from the bigots, so if they want to use female toilets, I hope they can do so in safety at least. Regretfully, not all females will be able to share the space without comment, and in some cases abuse or complaints.
In my understanding, gender, sexuality and other issues are not necessarily either/or choices. If, for the sake of practicality, we choose to label our public conveniences as "ladies" and "gents", we need to accept that some individuals will be faced with a dilemma. How they choose to resolve that is really none of my business. Actually, I find it much more offensive when people use mobile phones in the loos.
Above all, I think we need a bit of perspective. They just want to pee for goodness sake!
- 29 August 2010 13:59
- Cosmic Navel Lint said...
I think Edge of the Map has nailed it right there: you cannot dis-invent something or someone - that is to say, we cannot simply wish away or ignore that transsexuals exist, and have the same fundamental bodily functions as everyone else - and why would anyone, let alone the Law, want to become involved in a person's toiletry habits?
Transsexuals face enough daily challenges without legislating when and where they might spend a penny.
- 29 August 2010 14:17
- Sam said...
Back in 1996, when I was just 14, a transgender man began attending the church I went to (my father was the vicar). There was a heated discussion regarding which loo's this person should use, despite both the male and female toilet consisting of only two cubicles each ( no urinals). Eventually because of the bigoted attitude of a large number of the congregation it was decided that the this person would have to use the toilet in the vicarage. Needless to say neither the trasngender male or myself attended that church for much longer.
It saddens me that peoples attitude have not changed much in the last 14 years, but I am glad to see that there are now better laws to protect the rights of these people.
- 29 August 2010 14:38
- jonny maddox said...
For those interested in the legal arguments, the courts have already considered this matter in some detail. In Croft v Consignia plc [2002] IRLR 851, EAT
the EAT held that a pre-operative male-to-female transsexual was not discriminated against on grounds of sex when she was denied use of female communal toilet and changing facilities.
There is any interesting commentary plus references to some other cases, if you go to:
- 29 August 2010 16:25
- Elly said...
what I don't like is how the question is framed, making out the transgendered person is the 'problem' in this equation. should they be susceptible to laws making it a breach of the peace for them to go for a slash?
I think we need to start by questioning social attitudes to gender/transgender. questioning ourselves and our assumptions. e.g. should toilets be single sex at all? should there be a mixed sex toilet? should disabled people always just have one token unisex disabled toilet?
- 29 August 2010 17:33
- auntysarah said...
As a datapoint, I am a transsexual woman, who has been sexually assaulted in a female public toilet by a non-trans woman. *She* did not need protecting from *me*, quite the contrary.
- 29 August 2010 17:36
- Christine Burns said...
Oh dear. Earlier on I penned a comment setting out the essence of how I think people tend to come at this topic from the wrong angle. Unfortunately it appears to have disappeared into the ether after I pressed send. I'll try to reconstruct it again though.
Let's start from first principles. Trans people need to pee like everyone else.
If there isn't a safe place to pee outside of home then you are, to all intents and purposes, confined to a pretty small radius of home. Natacha Kennedy addresses that rather neatly here: http://uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2010/08/toilet-debate-historical-deconstruction.html
Why is anyone potentially worried about where trans people pee? Apparently this usually seems to boil down to a sense of possible threat to others sharing the same space.
What's the evidence on that? Well, as far as I've ever been able to determine, there has never been a case of a trans person attacking a non trans person in a toilet. Nothing. Zilch. You can rely that if there were it would have been prominently reported.
Conversely, there is ample evidence of non-trans people misbehaving in the loo. Others here have already referred to the 'toiletgate' affair, to cite just one example.
What this demonstrates that we have our concerns back to front. The vulnerability to be addressed is that of trans people, not that of non-trans people.
(There is a term for non-trans by the way. We refer to cis-gender people. Use it in the same way that you refer to homosexual vs heterosexual people.)
This argument has been developed into a political art form by the right wing in the United States. Over there, right wingers argue that passing city or state laws to protect the rights of trans people to access services would mean that cis-gender males could use that right to access women's toilets and commit assault. They mischaracterise civil rights bills aimed at protecting trans people as 'bathroom bills'.
So could we find some way to legislate this?
No. The problem lies with the impossibility of defining sex.
Forget what you think you learned about biology at school. They didn't explain the full picture .. partly because a lot of it wasn't known or understood until recently.
Gender is actually impossible to define in ways that aren't continually undermined by the exceptions. Consider the difficulty that Sports bodies have had with trying to police the area. Athletes like Caster Semenya confound attempts to make easy definitions.
There are dozens of different kinds of interest conditions. And I've encountered many cisgender women who, to my experienced eye, could be read as transgender. So, if I challenge you under some kind of bathroom law that says who can / cannot use a particular space, how would you defend that? Believe me when I say that anything you offer can be challenged as inconclusive.
Sorry if this has rambled. The original was far more succinct.
In summary though, just remember that the evidence points towards trans people needing to be protected. Examples such as the 'toiletgate' assault underline how excluding trans people from spaces where THEY would feel safe places them in harms way. To keep them in those safe spaces merely requires people to challenge their negative (and groundless) assumptions.
Oh .. and where on earth should physically interest people go to pee?
- 29 August 2010 17:44
- Christine Burns said...
Please forgive me. Text edit on the Mac (where I composed my message this time) has a charming habit of changing the word 'Intersex' into 'interest'. How fitting.
- 29 August 2010 17:53
- ceegriffin said...
Interesting that the issue of toilets has come up. I was approached by a member of the public who asked me if I knew of any unisex toilets in the vicinity of Parliament Square. I couldn't think of any. The reason for the request was because this person self-identified as Intersex.
I tried to engage with the City of Westminster's Equalities and Diversity Unit, via official channels, and came up against brick walls. They said that it wasn't an issue, and it would cost too much. I pointed out that if all toilets were converted to be unisex upon refurbishment, it would make no significant difference to costs, and would actually lead to a drop in the incidence of sexual activity in toilets, which almost inevitably is instigated at urinals.
Ban the urinal and stop the segregation!
- 29 August 2010 18:51
A transwoman is a woman and therefore should use the female toilets. End of. To say otherwise is cissexism and transphobic.
The fact that there is no outrage here about the idea of a transman using the gents', only over the idea of a transwoman using the ladies', indicates also a disgusting undertone of misogyny to this debate.
For the record, I am cisfemale (that is, my gender and physical birth sex are both female), not trans.
- 29 August 2010 19:04
- flashsays said...
I appreciate that it's tangiential but to pick up on a couple of points about "disabled" toilets (the correct term for which is actually "accessible", since they aren't broken):
@Zoe - it's unfortunate that you had a pushchair and the main toilets were up a flight of stairs, but the RADAR scheme is not intended for parents (unless they are disabled, of course). Your complaint should not be that you couldn't get hold of a RADAR key because unless you are disabled (in which case you probably already have one) you have no right to it. Your complaint should be that the premises did not provide adequate toilet facilities for parents - perhaps a separate toilet/changing room on the ground floor.
@Elly - disabled people don't always have a single unisex toilet. In some cases there is an adapted cubicle within the ladies or gents. This can raise issues in itself when the disabled person has a personal assistant of the opposite sex, so generally a unisex toilet is preferable, it certainly avoids that issue.
- 29 August 2010 19:34
- Jo said...
In many ways this is an extraordinarily Anglo-Saxon obsession. I have a friend in France who cannot believe the manner in which this is so regularly chewed over in the UK, and how it features so prominently in debate.
Let's unpack it.
Why does this question even arise? Because of fear. Leaving aside the ACTUAL fact of there never having been a recorded incident of which I know of a trans person behaving inappropriately in a public lavatory and causing distress to another (it would have been all over the Daily Mail had it happened), the root of this fear must surely be that a pre operative trans woman would enter a 'female' facility and (a) Embarass people by exposing herself or, worse,(b) Take the opportunity to sexually assault another user of that facility.
I'm sorry to be blunt, but you have to take this thing right down to the heart of it to get to the reality of this fear.
And this of course exposes the implicit assumption beneath this fear, and it is horribly transphobic. That assumption is that there is a chance that this might happen.
Why does this assumption exist? It can't be based on evidence, as it's never happened. Indeed trans people are far more at risk from others in a toilet than the other way around.
Nope - the answer is that at the base of it all is the belief that trans people are actually at best NOT the gender they purport to be, at worst dangerously sick perverts from whom the cisgendered need protection. Particularly in 'vulnerable' places like toilets.
This whole debate actually sanctifies and reinforces these prejudices. They are pretty offensive.
The world, and British society in particular, should just GET OVER this.
- 29 August 2010 19:52
- Zoe OConnell said...
@flashsays - you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with the use of the term accessible as the way some places are constructed, they're supposed to be for the use of anyone who can't get up stairs either because they're less mobile themselves or because they have a pushchair. (The instance that really annoyed me was where there were two accessible toilets next to a baby changing/feeding room - the baby changing room had no toilets in. Both accessible toilets had RADAR locks installed) The trouble is the way RADAR were pushing the scheme as they basically accused anyone that didn't put RADAR locks on all accessible toilets of being ablist, even it that caused inconvenience to other users.
This was several years ago, I don't know if RADAR still do the same. I'm less involved in parent politics now but the volume of complaints I've seen from parents has dropped off, so I suspect things have changed.
- 29 August 2010 20:42
- Daniel Reitman said...
American law varies from state to state. Some states don't recognize change of gender. Others have a judicial procedure similar to change of name, but which generally are only available postoperatively.
- 29 August 2010 20:58
- flashsays.com said...
@zoe imogen: The problem is that many proprietors think that they can provide just one toilet to meet several needs; accessible to disabled people as well as a changing space for families etc.
This is a whole discussion in its own right and is often a heated topic in accessibility circles. Sure, the accessible toilet should have changing space and other facilities, as you may get disabled parents who need to use it. But there should also be a separate "family" cubicle, with changing space, which a family can feel comfortable using, without being forced into taking young children into the "wrong" gender-specific toilet, having to take a flight of stairs to the loo, or any other issue.
The trouble is that many proprietors try to turn the accessible loo into a "one size fits all" space, and that's no good. Firstly, able-bodied people don't qualify for a RADAR key. But if the toilet isn't locked, it's likely to be abused, so disabled people generally need and want a RADAR lock. We are least able to be able to clean up before use or make do if the loo roll is out, etc. Secondly, often disabled people cannot wait and need the toilet to be free *now*. But I know from experience that waiting for a parent and one or more children to use the facilities - whether that involves changing or not - can take up to 10 minutes, when I might only get 30 seconds warning of a need to use the loo.
That's not a criticism of any parent but of the proprietor who tries to meet non-standard requirements in just one cubicle. It's horribly common and in my opinion disabled people and parents alike should be campaigning against this. We each have our needs and should each have our space.
- 29 August 2010 23:41
- Zoe Brain said...
To what extent should the law regulate which toilet a coloured person can use?
Should equality law enable coloured people to use the toilet of their choice, in respect of either public toilets or toilets on private premises (eg, pubs and restaurants)?
Or should the law relating to, say, breaches of the peace be used to prevent coloured people, especially black, intruding into the "space" reserved for humans?
Perhaps someone can show me the difference between these questions and the ones posed in the original article. Differences based on actual facts, rather than perceptions, prejudices and beliefs.
Disclaimer: I'm Intersexed - so have had my own issues in this area. I do now, however, "pass for white" so to speak, even to an OB/Gyn. It's only a chromosome test that would show how different I am from either the standard female (or male for that matter) stereotype. And not even then, it depends where the sample was taken from.
FWIW I believe there should be separate single-stall accommodations provided for those that need them, to avoid discomfort. That way anyone who has concerns with sharing the loo with blacks, jews, transsexuals, foreigners etc could have a place to go to just for them where they won't feel threatened.
It's important that this not be seen as a "punishment", but a genuine and humane accommodation for those afflicted by prejudice like this to avoid them being discomfited. No stigma should be attached to those who make use of these facilities.
- 30 August 2010 02:33
- Jack of Kent said...
There is an interesting discussion on this post at http://auntysarah.livejournal.com/249530.html
I am taken to task for my clumsy wording; I am also criticised for showing transphobia and nastiness.
I accept my wording (in view of the analyses there) was clumsy, and I apologise.
I do not however accept that my clumsy wording demonstrated a deeper transphobia and nastiness.
But do what the commenters there have to say and make your own mind up.
- 30 August 2010 08:05
- Dru Marland said...
The EAT case of Croft v Consignia, cited above,which found in favour of the defendants, made interesting reading; two points in particular, namely:
The employee (a transsexual woman) was regarded as male, her 'legal' sex as interpreted by the EAT (where she would remain male until post-operative)
The management appeared to have abdicated their responsibility in this case by following the alleged wishes of employees, rather than identifying best practice and following it-
"Informal soundings had indicated, however, that female staff would not be happy with Ms Croft, who they had known as a man for many years, using their facility"
I wonder if this appeal would have failed now?
- 30 August 2010 08:31
- Christine Burns said...
My apologies for a clumsily written post yesterday. That's what comes of trying to rush something.
I'm intrigued by how this discussion has developed though.
This is a very unusual outing for a debate that has run and re-run as long as I can remember. It's unusual for the fact that there is so little airing of the views that are normally advanced on the topic.
I guess that is a tribute to the intelligence and liberalism of most of Jack of Kent's regular readers.
Even so, I suspect that some of those liberal thinkers may be wondering by now whether they were quite as open in their thinking as they had thought.
I notice that it has been (mostly) the trans people who had to introduce the idea that the topic is usually approached from the perspective of cisgender privilege and fear of 'the other'.
I hope that, if nothing else, readers carry away the lesson that has been repeated by several contributors: that assuming trans people to be the problem leads to travesties of judgement (such as Croft v Consignia).
It's unfortunate that Jack of Kent has been accused wrongly of transphobia.
Some of you might think that accusation is a reason not to engage with trans people, for fear of falling into similar bear traps.
We all hit this when venturing into discussion with highly marginalised people who've experienced continual bashing and have evolved hot buttons that they expect people to know not to press.
As an equality and diversity specialist myself, I've had to learn all the rules and no-go areas of language for EVERY diversity strand. It rapidly teaches humility.
As I say, "none of us knows, what we don't know we don't know". I've been corrected many times by people whose impatience and suspicion is manifest. I learned to approach this with consideration. I wanted to learn more about why people become conditioned to shoot first and ask questions later.
The term 'choice' is particularly sensitive for trans (as well as LGB) people. It has been used to deny justice.
Judges have sometimes been swayed by the idea that the discrimination faced by trans people is their fault for getting into the faces of cisgender people. It's like suggesting women of any kind are at fault for getting raped.
I've met hundreds of trans people through my work over the years and I don't think I've ever met someone who was not aware of what they faced when they transitioned. If they had a choice they clearly wouldn't have done so.
So, careless use of the word 'choice' (and a few other loaded expressions) tends to be interpreted as prima facie evidence of the mindset of the person concerned.
It's sad that Jack of Kent fell into that bear trap. He's not the first and won't be the last. I do ask trans people to investigate first before rushing to call someone a transphobe. Yet I also understand the sensitivity .. especially if the writer concerned has just spent another day in a world where harassment is continual.
Before calling that out, I do advise people to spend a day looking identifiably trans. I have never had a taker for that invitation.
But, as I say, it's been a far more temperate debate than most I've seen. Go and look at the comments under any newspaper article or blog on a trans story if you doubt me.
I do hope we can see more of that. And I'm sure people will soon realise that there is no animus behind the occasional liberal blundering into an unfamiliar place.
- 30 August 2010 11:23
- Zoe Brain said...
Jack of Kent - apology accepted, to the degree that an apology was warranted.
I think I made my point, hopefully without giving too much offence in return.
I'm sure people will soon realise that there is no animus behind the occasional liberal blundering into an unfamiliar place.
And if that's the worst blunder Jack of Kent ever commits, he won't have done too badly. I wish I could say the same for myself. These things, as they say, happen.
What's most important is that there was no malice intended. And there wasn't, it was obviously just an unfortunate turn of phrase, soon corrected.
I can work with that. I wish that all similar cases, or even the majority, were the same. Alas, in my own experience, they're not.
- 30 August 2010 13:05
- Dru Marland said...
This thread seems to be winding down, but, reverting briefly to the Croft v Consignia case cited, the conclusions of the EAT in this case may be usefully contrasted with the case in which I had a personal interest (Marland v P&O Portsmouth, 2006)in the judgement of which it was stated, inter alia, "....the insistence that she should use the male changing room .....amount(ed) very clearly to conduct which is capable of destroying the Claimant's trust and confidence in her employers if they are party to, or responsible for, such conduct"
- 30 August 2010 14:11
Jo said that "In many ways this is an extraordinarily Anglo-Saxon obsession. I have a friend in France who cannot believe the manner in which this is so regularly chewed over in the UK, and how it features so prominently in debate."
Before reading that I had been thinking of posting a comment along similar lines, but I now I will expand on it, as a British person who has lived in France for more than 20 years. Unisex toilets are rare in public buildings in France (though the coin-operated toilets on the streets are, I think, unisex, but it's quite a while since I've used one), but they are quite common in buildings. In the building where I work there are some designated as men's, some as women's and some without any indication of sex. I don't myself use the women's toilet, and I don't think most men do, but some women do use the men's toilet if the women's next to it is occupied, and no one has hang ups about using the unisex. Even in public buildings like the terminals of major airports it can happen that either the men's or the women's is closed for cleaning, and when that happens everyone uses the one that's available, and nobody minds. Most architects haven't grasped yet that women need more toilet facilities than men, and so it often happens that the toilets in the baggage-collection area of the airport the women's queue is longer than the men's queue for the two side-by-side cubicles in the same room. Most women are quite happy to save time by going into the men's cubicle, and if there is a woman who clearly arrived before me, I normally wave her in ahead of me when I'm next in line when the men's cubicle becomes available, and most women accept.
Some women avert their gaze when passing the urinals in a large menn's toilet, but not all do.
I have often had the impression (not confirmed by any serious investigation) that most French people (and to some degree other southern Europeans) do make the same connections between sex and excretion that seem to loom so large in the British mind. Possibly for that reason, it is rare to find graffiti in French toilets (much rarer than in the UK, anyway), and if one does find them they are likely to concern the relative merits of different football clubs.
- 30 August 2010 14:46
Two small corrections, one trivial, and the other not trivial but probably obvious:
... Some women avert their gaze when passing the urinals in a large men's [not "menn's"] toilet, but not all do.
I have often had the impression (not confirmed by any serious investigation) that most French people (and to some degree other southern Europeans) do NOT make the same connections between sex and excretion...
(This after previewing and editing at least five times!)
- 30 August 2010 15:14
Every premises should be given two options.
Supply 7 toilets, for straight males, straight females, gay males, gay females, mtfs, ftms, and an individual cubicle for bisexuals of either gender. With every patron of the premises to wear an armband clearly stating there gender & sexual orientation. Failure to wear the armband = six months in jail. Doctors & people trained to use lie detectors should be employed by all bars, clubs, malls etc to ensure the armbands are correctly worn. Meanwhile armed security guards should be employed to ensure no one removes or changes there assigned arm band.
OR have unisex toilets.
- 30 August 2010 15:15
- Christine Burns said...
Jo and Athel have both referred to this as a British obsession. Interestingly when I wrote about the self same topic over 12 years ago, that is how I described it:
A Very British Obsession
The fact that we can still have to have discussions like these always starting from the same base principles tends to explain why there are yawns, eyes rolled, and a dash of impatience when they come round yet again :-)
- 30 August 2010 17:11
- Tim Trent said...
It's a toilet. Who cares? Go in, urinate or defecate or both, wipe where required, leave the place tidy, wash hands and go out again.
Or are your bits so special that no-one may see them by accident?
If so, may I humbly suggest the porn industry is a career move for you. You will become wealthy.
- 30 August 2010 22:40
- madlogician said...
Thanks for raising this issue. I hope you won't be put off exploring other transgender issues by the tone of a few of the comments in another blog.
I'm a cis straight male with several transgendered friends, including at least two who have been assaulted in public spaces.
- 30 August 2010 23:03
- NicholBrummer said...
I always had the impression that standing next to other men in urinals had some kind of male bonding effect. Until an american explained to me that it was proper etiquette for men to take stand away as far as possible from each other, and only stare straight into the urinal, to avoid any chance of seeing any penis but your own. Subsequently, I found this urinal etiquette being explicitly codified in american newspaper editorials.
Strange as it is: cultures differ more than one expects, especially when it comes to these kinds of hangups. The same is true when it comes to the use of certain taboo words, the 'power' of which is not always known to second-language (english) speakers.
In a world where everybody has to negotiate between (sub)cultures: should we not consider it a human right to stumble into the unavoidable faux-pas without immediately being met with anger, rather than maybe an explanation of said (sub)cultural sensitivity?
- 31 August 2010 02:39
Missing from the discussion is the concern that some "dangerously sick pervert" cisgender males will dress up in womens clothing and harrass women in the toilet area, and there will be "no way to keep them out." Because it's an unexpressed fear, the holes in it aren't discussed (most notably that laws against harassment, which either exist or should exist, are sufficient to deal with this 'problem').
Still it's worth remembering, in this context, that many cisgender heterosexual males can be violent bastards to anyone different.
- 31 August 2010 05:41
- Dru Marland said...
Perhaps it's missing because it's recognised as a 'straw dangerously sick pervert' argument.
Has such an assault ever happened, do you suppose? -and would there be any likelihood of it happening as a result of formally permitting trans people to use the facilities consonant with their gender presentation?
I've seen some slightly hysterical propaganda on this subject from loony Christian right organisations in the States, but I don't think that they are saying "Heck, we don't mind the trannies, but if we let them in then it'll open the floodgates." They are simply characterising trans people themselves the as sick perverts. Which is a little disrespectful.
- 31 August 2010 11:44
As a cis-gendered woman, I was shocked when I learned about toiletgate, and my view reamins: a transwoman is a woman, and should be treated as such. A transman is a man and should be treated as such.
To seek to dictate that a transwoman should not use womens loos (or other fascilities) is just as discriminatory as to say a black woman shouldn't use the womens toilets becasue they are for whites only, or that a lesbian shouldn't use them becasue they are for straight women only.
Quite apart from considerations of equality and basic justice, what does it matter if the woman in the cubicle next to mine has slightly different plumbing to me?
Statistically, she is far more likely to need protecting from me than the other way around, and ghettoisng her puts her at greater risk, without in any way reducing the risks I might potentially face.
- 31 August 2010 13:42
- Gridlock said...
"Until an american explained to me that it was proper etiquette for men to take stand away as far as possible from each other, and only stare straight into the urinal, to avoid any chance of seeing any penis but your own."
I can't find the source, but "Americans would rather suck a cock than be called a cocksucker" works on so many levels.
- 1 September 2010 15:54
- SadButMadLad said...
What about the external urinals put up in city centres at night to stop the urinating in alleys and doorways? Men use them and happily pee in public. Why are they embarrassed when inside? Most of the time men are so busy looking at the wall in front of them and not looking anywhere else to avoid being called a "poof" that they wouldn't notice if a naked woman walked into the gents.
Technically women can use urinals as well. I've seen it done. Most women can do so with an aid (so long as their clothing doesn't get in the way).
- 1 September 2010 22:46


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Clore Automotive's Viper Cooling System Service Center, No. AF3250, comes as a multi-function cooling system service center that can be operated easily. It offers cooling system drain and fill, power flush and back flush functions, plus adds useful diagnostic testing operations to assist with cooling system troubleshooting. A cooling system flush can be completed in as little as 15 minutes or less on most vehicles. It features quick vehicle hook-ups at either the upper radiator hose or at the heater hose and includes a full assortment hose adapters, tees and radiator cap adapters. Detachable 7-gallon tanks ease changeover between different coolants.
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Access Tools' Twin One Hand Jack Set comes with a complete assortment of tools to open the doors to more vehicles than ever. The Twin Air Jack and Mini Starter Air Jack air wedge, enable the operator to gain access to virtually any vehicle on the road today. Also included is the Remote Control Button Master for vertical lock button vehicles, the One Hand Jack, as well as the Shielded Quick Max Long Reach Tool. This entire package comes with our extra-long carrying case to make storing and transporting your tools easier than ever.
- Product From Access Tools
Access Tools' Spare Tire Kit provides the user with the right key for most vehicles with an under-mounted spare tire. These keys allows for quick and easy spare tire removal, eliminating the need to search the vehicle's truck for the spare tire key. The kit, which comes with 15 socket-based keys, works on any SUV and pickup truck, as well as many other new vehicles, including the Mini Cooper and Fiat 500. The kit is periodically updated to ensure functionality and usability, the manufacturer says.
Mini Starter Air Jack air wedgeProduct From Access Tools
Access Tools' Mini Starter Air Jack air wedge provides the operator the ability to access vehicles with soft aluminum B-pillars or delicate painted surfaces without the use of a One Hand Jack or other wedge tool. The bladder is made out of ballistic nylon, not rubber, which is important because rubber stretches while the nylon wont. The ballistic nylon construction allows the air wedge to slide easily over a vehicle's weather stripping, without any damage to the delicate rubber. To further aid insertion, there is a built in stiffener that prevents the air wedge from bending.
- Product From Philips Automotive Lighting North America
Philips' headlight restoration kit brings back headlight clarity for improved nighttime vision and enhanced driving safety. The kit features coating technology that delivers excellent results with minimal effort and does not require the use of power tools. It also adds a protective UV coating that can help prevent future clouding for up to two years. Designed for use by both professionals and do-it-yourselfers to restore lens surfaces in a few easy steps, improving the light output and overall appearance of plastic headlamp assemblies. The kit also works on taillights, turn signals, and reflective lens covers.
- Product From Innovative Products of America (IPA)
Quick stripping! Self-adjusting durable Large Wire Cutter/Stripper. Available in large and small.


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Fey praises players as Town get back to winning ways (From This is The West Country)
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Fey praises players as Town get back to winning ways
2:00pm Monday 9th December 2013 in Sport
Calor League South & West
Bridgwater Town 4 Guildford City 2
BRIDGWATER Town got back to winning ways with a 4-2 victory over Guildford at Fairfax Park on Saturday.
A Guildford equaliser on 37 minutes had cancelled out Toby Osman's opener, but goals from Mitchell Page, Joe Bushin and Danny Wring gave Bridgwater their first league win in four games.
Robins' boss Richard Fey was pleased to put an end to his side's winless streak and highlighted the next three fixtures as 'very important.' He said: "With the amount of injuries we have got it was credit to the lads again.
"It's nice to get the three points - and our next three games are against the teams around us in the table. We've got Shortwood, Stratford and Clevedon which is nice because we're coming off the back of playing the top teams in the league with big budgets.
"We are just trying to pick up as many points as we can before Christmas."
Town took an early lead on 12 minutes when Toby Osman fired in from the tightest of angles following a neat run.
Anthony Bridgeman went close for Guildford, but his shot was deflected wide as Bridgwater's defending became a little lax.
They equalised on 37 minutes when Ben Rayner brought down a pass near the penalty spot with his first touch and with his second touch, struck the ball smoothly past Chris Wright in the Bridgwater goal.
But Town responded with an increased urgency about their play - Wring's mazy run lead to Mitchell Page drifting a shot wide of the post.
But Page went one better on 43 minutes, lifting the ball into an empty net with the Guildford goalkeeper stranded outside his penalty area.
Bushin went close to increasing the lead before the break, but his shot was well saved.
Town's third goal came on the hour when Danny Wring capitalised on a defensive lapse to slot under the keeper from ten yards.
Mitchell Page, who was impressive throughout the afternoon, played his part in Bridgwater's fourth as he was bundled over in the penalty area.
Joe Bushin stepped up to take the spot kick and made no mistake, placing his kick into the bottom left corner of the goal.
There was still time for Guildford to score a second, which they duly did with a penalty of their own.
Lance Banton-Brown was pulled down in the box and Ben Walshe smashed home to give the visitors a lifeline.
But Richard Fey's side held on for the victory and will now be hoping to build on that result when they travel to Shortwood on Tuesday night (December 10).
Bridgwater Town: Wright, Warren, Faux, Allan, Thomas, Bater, Wring (Turl 75), Osman , Page , Bushin (O'Connor 73) Wilson (Robbins 46).
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