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Ralph Lauren Big Pony Joggers
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Ralph Lauren Boys Jogger Bottoms in Grey or Navy
Give his laid-back look a preppy touch with these sporty joggers from Ralph Lauren.
In marl grey or classic navy, these joggers ooze cool collegiate style. The draw cord waist comes in navy and cream stripes for a varsity vibe, while the left leg is embroidered with the iconic polo pony. The quality cotton fabric promises to keep him comfy all day long, and the brushed-back fleece is extra luxurious.
He can team these joggers with polo tops and plimsolls for an authentic preppy look.
Useful info:
- Ralph Lauren boys jogger bottoms
- Quality and comfy cotton
- Luxurious brushed-back fleece fabric
- Available in grey or navy
- Embroidered pony logo to left leg in contrast colour
- Stripy draw cord waistband in navy and cream
- Side pockets
- Ribbed hems
Ralph Lauren Teddy Bear.
These adorable Teddy Bears from Ralph Lauren are sure to put a smile on any little ones face. With matching coverall, bodysuit and bib sets which can be found in our collection, they will make the perfect gift.Colour: Grey. Cotton filled with polyester fibre. Machine washable.
Ralph Lauren Boys Classic Jogging Pants with Elasticated Waist
In a range of sizes for babies up to teenagers, these Ralph Lauren boys classic jogging pants are a stylish staple for his luxurious casual clothing. Quality brushed-back fleece provides sumptuous softness for soothing comfort.
These Ralph Lauren boys joggers have an elasticated waistband and drawstring fastening for an adjustable fit. Front pockets and embroidered branding to the leg define the design, while the cuffed shape promotes snuggly warmth throughout the seasons.
For the ultimate in luxury comfort, you can team these boys pants with a polo shirt, hoodie and trainers or plimsolls.
Useful info:
- Boys jogging pants from Ralph Lauren
- Elasticated waist
- Drawstring fastening
- Cuffed joggers
- Pockets
- Embroidered branding
- Brushed-back fleece
Ralph Lauren Classic Zip Boys Hoodie
- Low stock, selling fast
3 reviews
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Ralph Lauren Boys Classic Zip Hoodie with Embroidered Logo Detail
With a classic clean shape, this Ralph Lauren boys hoodie is a lovely selection for his staple all-seasons wardrobe.
Cotton fabric makes this boys hoodie extra snuggly, while embroidered logo detail to the chest adds a luxurious finishing touch. Pockets to the front accentuate the design and the zip fastening allows easy changing.
For a cool casual look, you can coordinate this boys hoodie with jeans or chinos and a retro pair of plimsolls.
Useful info:
- Boys hoodie from Ralph Lauren
- Zip fastening
- Embroidered logo to chest
- Pockets to front
- Cuffed hem and sleeves
- Casual clothing for boys
Ralph Lauren Boys Classic Polo Shirt
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Ralph Lauren Boys Classic Polo Shirt
No one does collegiate-inspired style like Ralph Lauren, and this boys classic polo shirt is a great way to give his casual wardrobe the unmistakable preppy trend.
Crafted from the finest cotton in a breathable pique knit, it's versatile enough to sit over a pair of jeans or smart chinos for a slightly more formal look.
You can choose from a selection of colours, and it's styled with two-button placket, banded cuffs and the classic embroidered Ralph Lauren logo to the chest.
Useful info:
- Ralph Lauren boys classic polo shirt
- Quality pique-knitted cotton
- Two-button placket
- Banded cuffs
- Ralph Lauren embroidered chest logo
- Available in ages 9 months - 20 years
Ralph Lauren Boys Graphic Print T-shirt
With a retro-style graphic print, this boys Ralph Lauren T-shirt brings cool Americana style to his casual look.
This short-sleeved top features a classic crew neck and short sleeves - a must-have staple for his all-seasons wardrobe. The top-quality cotton fabric provides comfort and washes well for added convenience.
Match this tee with jeans, boots, a zip-front hoodie and a padded jacket to complete his outfit.
Useful info:
- Boys T-shirt from Ralph Lauren
- Short sleeves
- Vintage-style print
- Casual clothing


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Ask the Readers: Is It Better to Invest or to Prepay a Mortgage?
Published on - June 1st, 2007 (by J.D. Roth)
Paul writes with a common question that illustrates how challenging personal finance can be, even when you're doing the right things. Sometimes it's difficult to choose between several good options. Here's his dilemma:
I refinanced my house a few years ago at a great rate (5-3/8%). At the time, we had a lot of equity in the house so we borrowed against it in order to build an addition.
After we were finished, we had a significant amount of money left over, which is currently sitting in "callable" CDs. The CDs are collecting an average of 5.25% APY. I've been calling this our "emergency fund". Doing the math, you'll see that I'm losing 0.125% on this money (5.375% mortgage rate – 5.25% CD interest).
My financial planner recommended putting it back into the mortgage. I'm leaning more towards investing it (in index funds or something else).
- If I leave the money where it is, I'm losing money.
- If I plonk down this entire lump sum on my mortgage right now, it takes ten years off the loan, but it means I have no emergency fund.
- If I invest this money at an average return rate of just 9% for the 26.5 years left on my mortgage, I end up with almost 10x the amount of money I have now! (Plus the money is easier to liquidate in case I need it.)
This seems like an easy choice, but it's not. There's no guarantee of a 9% return, but I feel that these numbers are fairly conservative and support the idea of investing the money vs. putting it back into the mortgage, which is why I'm very surprised at the recommendation to do so by my financial advisor. What's the best choice here?
This question has stumped smart people for years. Is it better to invest or to prepay a mortgage? Neither answer is wrong — there are advantages and disadvantages to both. But is one choice less wrong than the other? When I covered this subject a year ago, I shared advice from several personal finance books. Here's what they said:
- Ric Edleman (Ordinary People, Extraordinary Wealth): Never own your home outright. Instead, get a big 30-year mortgage and never pay it off — regardless of your age and income. "Every time you send an extra $100 to your mortgage company, you deny yourself the opportunity to invest that $100 somewhere else."
- Suze Orman (The Laws of Money): Invest in the known before the unknown. Paying off your mortgage offers a guaranteed return on investment. "You cannot live in a tax return. You cannot live in a stock certificate. You live in your home."
- Elizabeth Warren (All Your Worth): Save 20% of your income. Use 10% for retirement savings, 5% to accelerate your mortgage, and 5% to save for future dreams. "Paying off your home also does something many financial planners neglect to mention: It gives you freedom. Once that mortgage is gone, just imagine all the freedom in your wallet."
- Dave Ramsey (The Total Money Makeover): Prepay your mortgage if you can, but only after you've saved an emergency fund, and only if you're putting at least 15% of your income toward retirement. Don't use a program designed by a broker; use your own self-discipline.
- Charles Givens (Wealth Without Risk): "On the first of the month when you write your regular mortgage check, [include extra] for the 'principal only' portion of the next month's payment." For example, if you have a $1000 payment with $200 designated for principal, pay an extra $200 (for a total of $1200). This effectively cuts the term of the loan in half. Note that Givens' advice was written in the 1980s when interest rates were much higher.
- Dominguez and Robin (Your Money or Your Life): "Pay off your mortgage as quickly as possible." This book, too, was written when interest rates were higher. Also, the authors emphasize frugality over investing.
Financial authors don't agree on this subject. Maybe the personal finance gurus writing for the web can clear things up?
- Liz Pulliam Weston at MSN Money: Don't rush to pay off the mortgage. "You've got better things to do with your money, like saving for retirement, building an emergency cushion or even living it up a little."
- Walter Updegrave at CNN Money: If you've funded your retirement, and if it will make you happy, then pay down the mortgage. Otherwise, it makes more sense to invest.
- Laura Rowley at Yahoo! Finance: Using very conservative figures, investing instead of prepaying the mortgage yields an extra $400 per year. If you feel compelled to pay down your mortgage, do it. But realize you're paying a price to do so. (She offers more details at her blog, as well as tips on how to estimate the investment return you need to earn to make it worthwhile.)
- Bankrate: Pay down your mortgage if your investments would be conservative. Invest if you're planning to do so for the long term.
- USA Today: It depends on your income, your monthly expenses, your risk tolerance, and your desire to own your home free and clear.
- Kiplinger's: Invest unless you're near retirement
- The Dollar Stretcher: Mathematically, it makes more sense to invest, but it all depends on your risk tolerance.
- My fellow pfbloggers, Blueprint for Financial Prosperity and Million Dollar Journey, recommend that a person do a little of both: pay down the mortgage some and invest some. Free Money Finance says: "If you have the discipline to save/invest the money you would be using to pay off the mortgage, it's likely that saving/investing is the better option. But if you're more the "average" person out there managing your money, I still believe it's a better option to pre-pay your mortgage."
The Rowley article offers some interesting background to this debate:
Why do so many people choose to put extra money into a mortgage when other options would likely increase their wealth? "This is really remnant of Depression mentality that has persisted from generation to generation," says [one expert]. At the time, most mortgages had one- to five-year terms, with a lump sum payment due at the end.
"Any shock to income meant you couldn't afford your payment — mortgages were much more susceptible to economic uncertainty," [the expert says], and roughly one-quarter of Americans were unemployed during the Great Depression. "It's fine to pay down your mortgage if it gives you peace of mind, but you should recognize what that peace of mind costs."
If you're facing a similar decision, you may find this calculator useful: prepaying your mortgage vs. investing.
Researching this entry was educational. I'd always been under the impression that it was better to prepay your mortgage. At best, I thought it was a wash. After reading advice from dozens of experts, however, it seems that unless your mortgage rate is high, it makes more sense mathematically to invest your money in an index fund. (Most experts agree that psychologically you should do what works for you.)
But doesn't this imply that, if possible, it's a good idea to convert home equity to stock investments? Kris and I have about $100,000 of equity in this house. Should we re-finance and put the money in an index fund? I can't imagine doing that. What would the experts say?
Have you faced Paul's dilemma before? Which did you choose? Which would you choose if you had the option? Why?
Note: For those of you wondering about the effect of taxes, I'm assuming that all evaluations made by these experts take them into consideration. I'm also assuming that they've considered inflation.
This article is about Ask the Readers, House and Home, Investing, Real-Life
[...] ask the readers: is it better to invest or prepay the mortgage @ get rich slowly does exactly what it says on the tin, scroll down and read the comments [...]
[...] Ask the Readers: Is It Better to Invest or to Prepay a Mortgage? (tags: finance mortgage investing) [...]
[...] Is It Better to Invest or to Prepay a Mortgage? at Get Rich Slowly [...]
I'm prepaying (vs investing), here's why:
1. My job isn't 100% secure. The earlier I can be free & clear, the more choices I will have when I'm pounding the pavement. It will also reduce my chances of foreclosure.
2. What if I wanted a complete career change later? We go through 4-5 career changes in our modern lives, not every career progression is a salary progression.
3. If the math works so well for investing, why buy a house at all? Rent cheap (or take an interest only mortgage, drive a $500 car and invest the rest in the stock market, you'll net out better than everyone else. There's pride in owning a house, there's pride in driving a decent car… that's all psychological.
4. Why are banks lending us money to buy houses, when they can put 100% focus on stocks? They should get a better return, right? Who cares about diversification, why should banks get 5% on mortgages and 7% on stocks when they can get a full 7% on stocks only? They too, are risk-averse and believe in diversification. And us complying to a 30-year mortgage is merely optimizing their mortgage return.
5. Being free & clear, I'll have extra $$ (and stomach) to more aggressively invest in the stock market, generating returns better than 7%. And if not, I will still have a roof over my head.
6. Guaranteed return of for a short-term 15 years (or whatever the accelerated mortgage life is). In the stock market, a low-risk 7%-10% return is based on a 25-30 year period, not 15.
So my takeaway is this: for the rational risk-takers: rent & live frugally & invest all into the stock market. For the emotional risk-averse: accelerate your debt payments to become 100% debt-free. And for everybody else: make sure you have an emergency fund and take advantage of company matches before you choose something in between.
[...] this month we debated whether it's better to invest or to prepay a mortgage. Mathematically it makes more sense to invest, but from a psychological perspective, prepaying a [...]
I'm in this boat. My boyfriend and I both have homes. He has $55k mortgage on a house now valued between $150 and $180k. I have a house with a $95k mortgage valued between $160 and $180 also. If we sell his house, mine would almost be paid for. We have about $20k in savings but that will need to go to my house to make it livable (let's just say it needs new everything as it was cobbled together). We're pretty good at redoing homes as he is actually very competent.
Sooo, if I didn't pay off the mortgage upon the sale of his house, we could invest it in his education to be a papered engineer (degree, he is really super bright but didn't finish college). At 5 2/8 interest it would be a cheap way to ensure financing his education….
On the other hand, if there were no mortgage, I would be a little more free to quit my job to try to find one in teaching (which is horrifically competitive and I'm very conservative in finding jobs in fields that are full).
Ugh, it is a tough decision. Fortunately we have about a year to figure it out.
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[...] Is It Better to Invest or Prepaid a Mortgage? from Get Rich Slowly [...]
[...] Finance: How to Save Big on Your Mortgage In June, we discussed whether it's best to invest or to prepay a mortgage. At Yahoo!, columnist David Bach writes: "In my 9 years of experience as a financial advisor [...]
Hi JD,
Really enjoyed this post and wanted to let you know that I blogged on it over at teaspoonfinance.com: Great Finance Blog Post – Ask the Readers: Is It Better to Invest or to Prepay a Mortgage? I've been a big fan of Ric Edelman for a long time. I love the way he drives home the change for keeping the big mortgage and investing rather than paying off principal. great post!
As a public university employee in a state where pay is low across the board, I bring home just enough to live on. . .with no mortgage or rent. When I bought my house, I used the fee from a ghostwriting contract to make the down payment & ended up with an $80,000 mortgage–pretty low, in today's terms. At that time I had $24,000 worth of alimony coming in, plus a modest salary–slightly above the state's median income, which is breathtakingly low.
One day, a year or two before the alimony was due to end, I realized that the mortgage payment was more than half my salary. While my S.O. was living with me, he paid rent that I put toward the mortgage, defraying my costs and making maintenance & upgrades deductible. But when he bought his own place in the neighborhood, that arrangement disappeared and I was just making ends meet after I paid the mortgage and set aside enough to pay taxes on the alimony. Clearly, once the alimony ended, I would not be able to get by unless I changed my lifestyle from frugal to miserly.
Using some cash from an inheritance plus a couple of years of tax refunds, I paid off the mortgage in one swell foop.
Now I have ALL of my salary to live on, and there's enough to invest in a Roth IRA and nondeferred mutual funds. When you own your house, you pay the taxes & insurance once a year, instead of monthly through your lender. So, the $350 I set aside each month from my salary for those bills goes into a high-interest savings account, where it earns a few dollars during the year that it accrues before being forked over to the government and the insurance company.
I bought the house about 12 years ago for 100 grand, & I've put about $60,000 into it. It's now worth $325,000 to $350,000. When I retire–which I could do today, if I felt so inclined–I can purchase a house for $250,000 to $285,000 in a nearby retirement community. If I clear $325,000 on the sale of this house and buy a smaller house, newer house in a nicer, safer, and quieter neighborhood in said retirement community for $275,000, I walk with $50,000 to put back into retirement savings, negligible tax & insurance payments, and no mortgage bills.
I could not live on what I earn if I had to pay a mortgage. I would have a hard time living on my salary if I had to pay upwards of a thousand bucks a month in rent. So…was it better to keep the cash in mutual funds or to tie it up in the house?
Tho' the money may not be earning as much as it would in the stock market and tho' it's illiquid, paying off the mortgage lets me put food on the table and clothes on my back. To my mind, that is a return on investment that's worth quite a lot.
Interesting discussion, but I believe one factor is missing, which is the buying versus rent analysis. In just having (almost) sold our house and going to renting for a while, I can tell you that home ownership isn't always the best investment choice. What is missing in the analysis is whether your home is in an increasing market or declining market and what is the equivalent rental prices for your area? If one can rent a place for $500 to $1000 less than they pay to purchase, this money can be invested (or pay down debt) and it is more liquid than trying to get money out of a home when a financial situation arises. So, what I would like to see in the equation is also factors considering liquidity of a house and mortgage price per square foot versus rental prices per square foot. This would better help make the decision on whether to pay down the mortgage. In our home sale, the commissions, excise taxes, and other sale costs amount to about 8% of the price of the home. Add to this 1% improvements that had to be made to get the home in sale condition, and a drop of 1% from original sale price, which was set at the previous market rate for the home, one needed to factor in the fact that your home's value is really only 90% of its current "price."
Can anyone provide additional factors to the equation to account for my question (i.e., how to factor in rental rates into the decision process)?
This also reminds me of another idea, should one stay in their home or rent it out? This would be a decision for the family looking to move up or the couple looking to scale down. One should not assume they will necessarily live in the same house. One may not have enough square footage for their needs, or have more than enough square footage.
Consider that keeping a roof over your head is a necessary cost of living, independent of investing. Rent is the market price of a roof-over-head.
Owning a house comes with a fringe benefit – free 'roof-over-head'. To factor this into cost/benefit simple deduct the value of rent (that you would otherwise pay) from the cost of owning the house.
I am using Banks money and living in my house for free. My house is worth 1.5M.
I have mortgage 150K (cheap money) with 10 yr 3.75% fixed, 7 yrs left. I took HELO 700K and invested. My mo check pays mortgage,prop.tax,insurance,utility,phone,
car and ++cash……..Is it OK or not?
[...] Get Rich Slowly, Ask the Readers: Is It Better to Invest or to Prepay a Mortgage? [...]
I've been thinking of using http://www.mortgagecheckingaccount.com/ to organize a bi weekly mortgage payment strategy. I know there are cheaper budgeting systems available but feel like I need some form of organized budgeting to stick with a payoff plan.
Thank you for the great discussion! I googled this issue and found this gold. It covers all my concerns, and it helps to know there is no one definitive answer for everyone.
I lean toward the Dave Ramsey model myself — first make sure I'm funding my retirement, then put extra money into my mortgage. Like another commenter, I'm in sales, which does not have the same stability as other careers. It will be a huge relief to me when I'm able to pay off my mortgage, but I don't want to short-change my retirement and its growth over the next 20-30 years.
[...] Is it better to invest or to prepay a mortgage? [...]
[...] Is it better to invest or to prepay a mortgage? [...]
There's nothing like having a nice house and no debt. It gives you immense security and the ability to withstand unforseen events. I lost my job when the dot com bubble burst and was telecommuting from Lake Tahoe. Needless to say, high-paying jobs were non-existent locally and moving back to the San Francisco Bay Area was the last thing I wanted to do. Being totally debt-free with a year of emergency cash on hand gave me the option of finding another way to earn a living without giving up my home or moving.
Another issue might be a major illness — if worse comes to worse, you can get Medical without giving up your house, but you'd have to liquidate your investments before the government would step in to help.
Suze Orman paid off her house & Dr. Phil said when he moved from TX to CA, he bought his house with cash. I respect those 2 people. I paid off mine. Values probably come into play. Saving money and paying off debts are some of my most important values, while for others they might not be as important. It feels like a big weight has been lifted off of me. It really is immensely satisfying. I have peace of mind and a sense of freedom, and I'm sure the reduced stress will continue to have a positive effect on my health too.
I'm going through this very dilemma myself, I just bought a house and have a good chunk of available change for use as I see fit.
So far I have it sitting in CDs (tiered) while I decide. Based on what I've read above and elsewhere, I'm going to do it all. What?
I'm going to prepay a bit of my mortgage now, nothing major at all. But (!), 30 years of interest (or lack thereof actually) can really make a difference. Of course, prepayment assumes you are going to live in the house for a long time. If you're going to sell prior to payoff, then prepayment is not a great option.
But I'll also be investing waaaaay more than I prepay. Odds are low I'll be here in 30 years, so I can do better than my 6.2% interest rate elsewhere given the odds.
[...] to note, the purpose of this post isn't to debate whether or not paying off all debt is a good idea (versus only making mortgage payments and [...]
[...] and I will strive to repay our mortgage early. Though we're aware of the drawbacks to prepaying our mortgage, it's something we both want to do. We sat down tonight and drafted a plan, which I'll [...]
I'd say the "right" financial decision is the one that gives the home owner peace of mind.
Risk is a part of finances, life, and decision-making.
But…who says you've got to go with 100% of either choice.
If you really want to enjoy the benefits of a mortgage and the index fund, then it's also a possiblity to enjoy the benefits of both.
You would simply take one portion of the funds and invest back into the mortgage and the other portion to invest in the index fund.
That way, your diversifying your approach and spreading out your risk.
Most investments, over time, incur risk, so run the numbers and go with the investment choice that gives you a sense of peace.
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet (this question seems to have sparked a lot of comments) but it depends also on how long you are going to stay in your home. if you are for sure going to stay for the full 30 years, then sure, investing would probably be a better option. but in reality, most americans move every 5-7 years. with that you have to take into account something called the "effective interest rate" which is the interest rate you are actually paying at the time you move. This changes because on a mortgage all of the interest is paid at the begginning and gradually decreases. so if you stay in your home for the full 30 years, you really will pay just 5% interest which is great, but if you move after 5 years you are actually paying an effective rate of over 100% interest. this is because over the 5 years you paid in x amount of dollars but not all of that went to principle. only a small part of it went to principle. so if you plan on moving before your 30 year term you will have to find an investment with over 100% interest to make it worth your money not to pay down the mortgage.
again, maybe this concept has already been mentioned, but that is why it would be odd to take out a 2nd mortgage and invest it in stocks or bonds. unless you are staying in that house for a long long time, it really would be ridiculous.
It seems like a lot of readers are leaving out one of the most important things to consider: interest on mortgage is tax deductible, and because individuals' tax situations differ, there's no "common formula" that works for everyone.
In general, paying down a mortgate with money that could be invested is not a good long-term decision, but to some people, I guess that instant gratification of being debt-free is too difficult to turn down.
[...] a great article over at getrichslowly.org that lets financial giants weigh in. The author of the blog researched respected financial [...]
Invest in stocks with "A" ratings, when they have gone to the low end of their analyst prescribed range. I've prepaid several of my homes, and this time around, find that I do better in the stock market than the 6-7% I pay on my mortgage.
Investing in the stock market also forces you to think differently, and to learn, since you should perform due diligence on companies you invest in. It's a personal growth versus comfort issue.
Great blog J.D. and a great discussion on this topic. In my opinion, paying down the mortgage is the better option, without a doubt. Here's a few reasons why:
1. Is it better to invest in the market than prepaying the mortgage? Think about it. If you can make 10% in the market and have a 7% mortgage, you're coming out ahead, right? Well, not really. The stock market, especially now, is anything but a guaranteed return. Plus, whether it's in a 401k or any other investment vehicle, you have to pay taxes, whether it be now or later. And if it's later, while you might be in a lower tax bracket, chances are taxes will be higher too. So while some have argued that the effective interest rate is lower on your mortgage due to the taxes and interest being deductible, so is one's return on investing because of paying taxes on their investments. Prepaying a mortgage is 100% tax free and is a guaranteed return on investment.
2. Why prepay a mortgage? I'll lose that tax deduction! That's just it, it's a deduction, not a tax credit. Meaning that the interest you pay is deducted from your gross income that you pay taxes on. So if you are in a 28% tax bracket, for every $1 in interest you are paying the bank, you are getting 28 cents back. Personally, I would much rather pay the IRS 28 cents and keep 72 cents in my pocket any day.
3. Why pay off your mortgage when your interest rate is so low? That low interest rate is back-loaded, as anyone who has a mortgage surely knows. If you have a 30 year mortgage, you probably have an effective rate of 88% that first year and a 75% interest rate after the 10th year. Don't believe me? Check your mortgage statement and see how much interest you are paying compared to principal. Yes, it eventually evens out over time. But if you have refinanced, you just reset the clock and you're back to that 88% mortgage. And if you sell your house and move into another, you will NEVER have that 7% mortgage (or whatever your interest rate is).
4. Better financial return. Take 2 people, both with $1500 mortgage payments. One pays their mortgage off in 30 years while investing $100 week in his 401k consistently during the same period. The other paid off their mortgage 20 years early and did not invest anything into their 401k during this time but invested that $1500 every month for the next 20 years plus $100 per week into their 401k.
After 30 years, assuming a 10% annual return, the first person has finally paid off their house and has $940,906 in their 401k. Not bad. What about the second person? In that same period, they will have $1,461,658!
While it's true that the first person was able to deduct their interest on their taxes for 20 years longer than the first person, the first person also invested $52,000 more than the second because they were putting in $100/week for 10 years while the second person wasn't. Oh yeah, and the second person has an additional 500 grand…not too shabby.
5. Freedom. Perhaps the best reason of all. Quite simply, if you don't have that $1000 or $1500 (or more) mortgage payment every month, what choices do you then have? You are not a slave to any job, you can work where you want, when you want for the most part, and still be fine financially. Yes, you still have taxes and bills, but who doesn't? By paying off your mortgage early, you are truly your own boss and are downsize proof.
For Dave(previous comment)
I am a little confused by your comparison of the two people. In order for the second person to pay of their mortgage in 10 years, they must pre-pay a whole lot more than 100$ per month for the term of their mortgage. They can't accumulate an extra 500 grand as easily as you made it sound. If I misunderstood, please correct me on this.
Well, the person not prepaying their mortgage is investing $100/week in their 401k, not $100/month. It is true, I did not consider how much the other person would prepay into the calculations. So I figured I would check how hard it would be myself.
I used a $150,000 balance on a 30-year mortgage at 7%, if the other person paid the same $100/week extra, they would actually eliminate their mortgage in less than 10 years (104 months to be exact). This person would also save about $150,000 in interest over the life of the loan. This would also give them an additional 16 months to invest this extra money, which means more in the long run.
Obviously, this is going to vary based on things like interest rate, balance on the mortgage and how much time left on the mortgage, but you get the idea.
This is not a black and white choice. Without knowing an individual's situation, a lot of details, it can go either way.
The credit card debt needs to go first. That's obvious, but I've helped people who told me the $100 now saves $1000 in 30 years on the mortgage, that's 1000%! And the credit card is 'only 20%!' You can see how this is nonsense.
Many have a 401(k) that offers a company match. That's free money, often dollar for dollar. This should come even before an emergency account, as the 401(k) $1 will cost 75 cents to put in, and be $2 after a match. If you lose your job, even after tax and penalty, you are ahead. Next, one should work on the emergency account. After you have the 6 months' cash needs in the bank, you can ponder the pay mortgage vs invest decision.
Of course, the higher your mortgage rate is, the more compelling it is to pay it off early. But there's another point that makes less sense. If, with property tax, and state tax, you are above the standard deduction, and all your interest is a write-off, a 5% mortgage may cost you just 3.75%. The DVY (an ETF containing high dividend stocks from the Dow Index) is yielding over 3.8% right now. With the current 15% rate on dividends, that yield is 3.28%, net. So, do you think the DVY stocks will rise more than just 1/2% year? You see, I'm not claiming 6-9% here. That index can even lag inflation and still be ahead of the mortgage cost. But is the average person disciplined enough to stay the course, not panic on drops, and not spend the money elsewhere? If not, the early mortgage payment is like buying a CD. Why would you buy a 4% CD, when your mortgage is 5%? You wouldn't, you'd pay the mortgage early.
Disclosure – I plan to retire early, and even if it's not the perfect thing to do to make the most return, I've planned to have the mortgage paid at the same time I retire. In fact, my letter of resignation will be printed on the back of the lien release I get from the bank for dramatic effect.
[...] the past year, Kris and I have discussed making accelerated payments on our mortgage. I've written about this choice several times at Get Rich Slowly, and it seems clear that mathematically it makes more sense to [...]
My approach to this question can be summed up in two simple thoughts:
"If you owe the bank $10,000 YOU have a problem. If you owe the bank $1,000,000 the BANK has a problem."
I'd rather the bank have the problem.
I have a 403b without matching for 12 years. I think the overall interest gained has been about 4 or 5% (hard to figure as money is put in in increments). I really don't trust the stock market because of the falling dollar and lack of honesty and accountability.
With that in mind, we paid off our mortgage at 5 and 3/8% interest. The $500 a month in interest can now be put into a retirement. Plus, with a paid house, you don't have to fight the mortgage company to build a workshop, remodel, etc.
The house is paid for because it is really small and needs lots of work – so it was only $134k. With about $20-$30k we can build the workshop and remodel (ourselves). The money that used to go to interest can now go to slowly remodeling the house so that in 2-4 years the house will be fully remodeled using cash – and still have money put aside for retirement.
dickey – congratulations. For many people, the choice between a fixed 5-3/8% return and an average return of say 9-10% with a 16% standard deviation is a tough one. I'd be against what you did if you let matching contributions go, but you said there was no match. As the mortgage rates drop the decision gets tougher, as I mention in my earlier post, but again, it's not black and white and you are far ahead of most people financially.
Paying off the mortgage early requires some discipline. Wondering if it a good thing to do or not is easier to do. Actually doing is more rewarding.
Another reason to pay off mortgage is to limit the downside risks. When people lose jobs, they end up dipping into their retirement savings to — pay the mortgage. If you don't have mortgage then loss of employment is not as damaging.
No mortgage is also HUGE emotionally. Without it, one is more likely to do the job they like. My two cents from my personal experience.
But finkid – if I prepay my mortgage, until it's fully paid I have a monthly payment on most mortgages, don't I? But if I invest that money and lose my job, I can just tap that savings. For those for whom the emotional aspect is 'HUGE', they should certainly prepay as much as they can. Because they likely won't sleep if the stock market has volatility as we've seen recently. But don't kid yourself, in any 10 year period since 1871, there have only been 9 instances out of 128 where the return was less than 3%.
see http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/randomness/time_horizon.htm
It is better for most people to invest the money rather than pay off the mortgage. Consider that the rolling average return of the S&P 500 is around 10.5%. If you're in the 20% tax bracket, the mortgage APR would need to be 12.6% or higher for prepayment to be advantagous. Prepayment of a mortgage may be advantagous if one of the following conditions exists:
1) the APR of the mortgage is prohibitively high
2) you are near or in retirement
3) the emotional satisfaction of prepayment is high
Note that, the stinger is this: past performance does not guarantee future results. In recent decades the average yearly return on stocks has been much less, around 7%-9%, and may be even lower in the near future. Therefore, prepayment may make sense if there is not much time left on the mortgage.
I've got 25 years left on my mortgage, and about the same amount of time left until retirement. I'm not prepaying.
In the world of equities nothing is ever certain.
Recent decades:
1990-9 ave 18.8% stdev 13.3%
1980-9 ave 17.8% stdev 11.7%
1970-9 ave 7.4% stdev 18% (not a great decade)
But the 2000s are shaping up to be lousy, I admit that. When your mortgage interest comes off your taxes (and your state tax and property tax is high enough to put you in itemized land)and if stock dividends and cap gains are favored, investing will pay in the long term over the pre-pay.
JT: Very optimistic data indeed.
Your 70′s data is incorrect.
The 80′s weren't a great decade considering the eroding effect of high inflation.
The gains of the 90′s should not be interpreted without assessing the impact of the 2000-02 bear market.
I have provided corrections below.
S&P 500 data from 1950-2006:
8.0% growth
3.7% dividend
11.7% total return
7.8% inflation adjusted return
total returns
50s ave 19.3%
60s ave 7.8%
70s ave 5.8%
80s ave 17.3%
90s ave 18.1%
00-06 ave 1.1%
inflation-adjusted returns
50s ave 10.7%
60s ave 1.8%
70s ave -5.4%
80s ave 7.1%
90s ave 12.0%
00-06 ave -3.1%
The 70′s.
My number above was the average. Take ten year's returns, add them, divide by ten. You offer the geometric mean, or annualized return, which I can calculate as well.
Both have meaning, neither are wrong.
We agree, the 70′s sucked.
We bought our house in Vernon British Columbia,Canada 6 years ago and if all goes well we should BURN the mortgage July 08. The house is being rented out to good renters and my wife and I are here in Kona Hawaii doing the work we love. Once the house is paid for we can start collecting the rent payments instead of the bank getting it, this will serve as a 3rd income for us!!! Pre Payments are a great way to go. With wise saving and financial counsel we have been able to invest in our Roth and Sep Iras as well As Dave Ramsey says"FREEEEEEEEDOM"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Warren Buffett has predicted future returns will be closer to 6%. Everyone thinks he's crazy, but they thought that when he said the tech bubble would burst.
Also, I don't think anyone mentioned the psychological aspect of making you save more. I have heard a financial advisor say that it doesn't make sense, but everyone that retires early, paid off their mortgage early. I think its because you start to feel rich with a big investment account, then you save less, then it bombs, and you are left with fewer years of saving.
Its like no one has a problem buying a 20k car when you have monthly payments, but if you actually had to pay it upfront, it seems like a ton of money. If you have to pay it at once, you buy the 10K car and save the rest. There is an additional psychological part, separate from the freedom thing.
I'm split on what to do.
Isn't our end goal wealth? I think when someone says "mathematically" they haven't taken everything into consideration. If you look at the match you have to make sure that you have just about as much in investments as you do in outstanding mortgage debt. What's the point in having 100k in mortgage debt and having only a few thousands dollars making 10% while trying to have your investments make more money? Your investments won't make more money for you until you PHYSICALLY read that they are making more money for you every month than what you are paying in interest to a mortgage company. If the goal is wealth wouldn't you want what gives you the most amount of money each month? That being said, you should always put at least ten percent of your money into your retirement account out of every paycheck. When people "do the math" they forget to think outside the box.
I also understand that some of the interest is "tax deductible" but that doesn't give you as big of a break as one would think. Figure out what yields more.
What I personally would do is prepay the mortgage. There is nothing like losing your job for an extended period of time and not being able to pay your bills. And if you have to pay them and are forced to take out of retirement you're screwed that way too. Now you've lost money in your retirement and on interest. I would refuse to be a slave to the lender any longer than I need to be.
We're going go assume that someone makes $48000/yr.
If you have a $200k mortgage @ 5.85% you'll have a monthly payment of $1179.88 (compliments of BankRate). Now, if you pay that off in the thirty years you'll acquire $225k in interest. But, if you pay an additional $400/month (the money you'd put towards retirement (this is equal to ~10% of income)) you'll pay off the mortgage in 16 years and you'll have acquired $112k in interest on the home loan. That would be a savings of more than $100k.
That's at least in terms of prepaying the mortgage. Now if you took that $400/month and put that in a retirement account for the sixteen years at 8% interest you would have $157k and you had to put $77k to make that much. So, you "made" $80k on your money in sixteen years. Given that you would have lost $20k in wealth by not prepaying your mortgage.
Now, if you saved fourteen years on prepaying your mortgage and put that monthly mortgage payment with the additional amount per month into a retirement account you would be at $1600/month for the next 14 years at 8% which comes out to ~$500k. So, now you've made $500k in investments and throughout that 14 years you saved $100k in interest so you have accumulated wealth totaling $600k. But now you have to subtract the amount you put into the account which is about $288k which brings total wealth accumulated to $312k plus you saved 20k by not putting it into the retirement. You're at $332k. And this is not assuming that you put that 20k saved into the fund initially. You would make even more money if you did that.
But, if you had only put the $400 dollars per month towards retirement for the thirty years and still paid the monthly mortgage payment you would have had $587k in money but you would have also paid an extra $100k in interest. Bringing total money earned to $487k. Now you have to subtract the money you put into the account which is $144k and that brings total money earned to $343k. And you have to remember that you have to subtract taxes from that when you take your money out at retirement. This is also assuming that you don't acquire any fees along the way with a perfect no-load fund and no expenses along the way. Some places charge as much as 5% for a load. If you had a load you would have put ~$380/month or 4560/year into savings. If you did this at the 8% (no expenses) for thirty years you'd be at $557k in totals minus 136k that you put in which is $421k minus the ~100k in savings which equals 321k total earned. Not including taxes that you would have on the money upon withdrawal. So, take it for what it's worth.
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, and if I am, please someone inform me. But it looks that mathematically having saved all the money in interest and money that could have been earned actually yields a slightly better scenario. Now, that's with only 48k in earnings. I'm sure some people make much more than that. If the money is changed the scenario will change. I think that means that it should be taken lightly.
It's not so complicated.
If you earn precisely the same rate as your mortgage, and instead of prepaying it from 30 years down to 15, you save the difference, you will have the savings balance equal to the mortgage remaining after 15 years. Now, if your mortgage is fully tax deductible, as your state tax and property tax puts you above standard deduction, but your savings are somehow tax advantaged, either through deferral or cap gain / dividend rates, your breakeven is lower, and/or you'll be ahead if you earn the same rate.
My mortgage is 5.24%. My post tax cost is 3.77%. If I can net more than that, pre-paying is not beneficial. If one can take their tax break while in a high income bracket, but take their earnings after retiring, presumably to a lower bracket, they should consider saving vs pre-paying.
[...] Is it better to invest or to prepay a mortgage? [...]

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22 U.S. Code § 402 to 405 - Repealed. Aug. 13, 1953, ch. 434,
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Event : Halloween
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The biggest monsters invade the smallest city in the world. Constant entertainment, chills and fun await in Durbuy, on 31/10/13.
Put on your fancy dress and dress up your little monsters and join the trolls, fairies, witches, ghosts and goblins.
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categories ... such as fposts by Larissa Andersonsh
Jailbroken iPhones can run Flash
by John Moe // Posted: 08/09/10 11:13 AM
You knew it was coming, right? The decision by the Library of Congress to allow jailbreaking of iPhones continues to have ramifications. Relatively easy jailbreaking software has been made available and now a program called Frash, that will let you run Flash on the iPhone. It's apparently still kind of hinky, doesn't run all Flash, and was kind of shoved out the door before being completely developed but will likely get better with updates. So now we have a situation where instead of being bound to an AT&T iPhone that doesn't run Flash, you can have a jailbroken phone that does.
today's show
What will we do with all this "white space"?
There's a vote coming up this week in Washington that will have a big impact on how you use the internet, what's available to you, how much faster you'll be able to get things online. On Thursday, the FCC is expected to open up unused parts of the broadcast spectrum, a lot of people call it "white space". This is space that was positioned to be something of a buffer between television stations but such padding is proving less essential since the conversion to digital TV.
On today's show, we talk to Glenn Fleishman from Wi-Fi Networking News and The Economist about how the spectrum works and what kind of new space we're talking about. We also check in with Tim Wu from Columbia Law School about the companies that will look to use the space and what it all might mean for you and me as internet consumers.
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The new Compute Module from Raspberry Pi delivers greater flexibility for professional embedded applications. This new Raspberry Pi board has been developed specifically for engineers in the professional market to create their own embedded system. The Compute Module fits into a standard DDR2 SODIMM socket and provides the same basic features of a standard Raspberry Pi, including a Broadcom BCM2835 processor and 512 Mbyte of RAM. It replaces the SD card with an onboard 4 Gbyte eMMC Flash device, and integrates everything on to a compact 67.6 x 30 mm board. The Compute Module is initially available as part of a development kit, bundled together with the IO Development Board, which brings out all of the IO connectivity to form a prototyping platform for electronics design engineers. The Compute Module as a stand-alone product will be available from the autumn.


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A simple software for manage all of invoices. FEAT
A simple software for manage all of invoices. FEATURES: print invoice, you can modify or delete an invoice, no need to manage the customer file (the software will do it automatically), adjust the invoice number, find easily an invoice, print a tax report from a specific time period, payment, balance, invoices summary, aged report, customer history, customer stastements, customer list, etc. DIRECTIONS: decompress in a folder and click twice on the file "Invoice" choose to continue if a message appears.
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QVC knows you don't always have the money you want to buy all the clearance-priced items you desire. So it created Easy Pay, which allows you to make monthly payments on all your most-wished-for products.
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Wrangler® Stretch Jeans
Item # WX2-226652
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This item is shipped directly from the factory. To see the expected shipping date, please add to your Shopping Cart. Sorry, no express shipping available. We are unable to ship factory direct items to Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico or APO or FPO addresses.
- Details & Specs
Wrangler® Stretch Jeans are NOT for couch potatoes!
These are not jeans for sitting behind a desk. These are not jeans for window shopping with your wife. They are not jeans for sipping coffee or people watching.These are hard working jeans, made to take on whatever your day dishes out:
- Rugged wear label on right hip pocket
- Comfortable U-Fit crotch
- Easy entry, extra deep front pockets
- Brass YKK® zip fly
- Fits easily over boots
- Cotton / polyester. Imported. Machine wash / dry.
State Color and Size, as available in the Shopping Cart. If you work hard, and need a pair of Jeans that will do the same... get yours ONLINE now!
Please Note: These Jeans are Slim Fit, for a more relaxed fit, please order one waist size large.
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2-Pk. of Guide Gear® Belts, Black / BrownBuyer's Club $26.99 Non-Members $29.99
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2-Pk. Dickies® Flat Front Work ShortsBuyer's Club $24.99 Non-Members $24.99
Guide Gear® 1977 5-pocket JeansBuyer's Club $17.99 Non-Members $19.99


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Terms & Conditions.
Discount applied at checkout. May not be combined with any other offer/discount, including invitation credits, promotional gift cards and/or special discount links. Price match does not apply to items on clearance or items purchased from exclusive sales. Clearance products are final sale. Log in to your account to see your savings.
Make your ears your most stud-pendous asset. Metal Monk's bright, darling stud earrings are crafted with colorful mixed media and a wide variety of embellishments. Featuring delicate shapes layered atop intricate brass filigree findings, these lovely adornments are anything but average.
Approximately 1" diameter
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Narrow your search
An organization known as the Portuguese Association for Consumer Protection says it wants Apple to "properly" inform Portuguese consumers about their rights.
A Polish couple, on vacation in Portugal, falls from a cliff at Cabo de Roca while reportedly trying to take a selfie.
Art installation puts autonomous robots behind bars for people to observe.
Mozilla CEO says that the Firefox Mobile OS will be available this summer in Venezuela, Poland, Brazil, Portugal, and Spain.
Users in Australia, Ireland, Portugal, and more now have access to the Web giant's music service, which allows for free storage of up to 20,000 songs.
Vodafone Portugal has leaked a new, low-end Android from HTC with surprising ICS chops.
Vodafone Portugal has leaked a new low-end Android from HTC with surprising ICS chops.
Italian-made combo device follows similar product from Portugal.
The head of Google in Spain and Portugal has acknowledged that Google is working on a mobile phone.


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|Industry Recognition
|Professional Conduct
I grew up in a two-family home and I can appreciate the turmoil and upheaval that divorce can cause to a family. I rely on this experience when helping clients... more
Josh was very professional before, during, and after trial. He is very competent, responsive, and reasonable.
I first met Attorney Robbins as opposing counsel on a highly contentious case involving custody and child support. Attorney Robbins represented his... more


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I also have a Blog, where you can find some of my observations and also track some of the history of High Flight Productions.
I started a High Flight/John Magee page and community on Google+ to provide a forum for interactive communication about John Magee and High Flight. I'll be posting pictures and information from my Magee research there. I hope to see you there! Click the Google+ link to go there!
© 2013 High Flight Productions - All rights reserved.
copyright Keith Ferris
Why is this website here? Driven by my passions of storytelling, movies and flying, I started HIGH FLIGHT PRODUCTIONS in 1997. My intent is to produce movies and videos that have flying as a primary component. This will involve biographies of pilots, book adaptations and original screenplays, as well as informational videos and DVDs.
The incomparable sound of a Spitfire and the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.
Thank you for visiting! Most likely you arrived here to find more information on John Gillespie Magee, Jr. and his wonderful poem, HIGH FLIGHT. OR... maybe you've heard that I'm writing a feature film about Magee? There's a link to the left that can take you directly there. Perhaps you're here to obtain the HIGH FLIGHT COMPILATION DVD? Again, the link is on your left (High Flight Shop). Enjoy your stay, and please remember to check back once in awhile -- new things are happening all the time!
Last updated August 2013


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They got married the following day (officially).
i would say SOD sound this year, was a little disappointing. to me it seemed like some stages where louder than others. there was some bleed here and there, and yea what was up with modeselektors sound problems, anyone know what happened?
out of curiosity, did anybody go to the primus shows at the fox/ does anybody know who the special guest was that they were hyping
Shannon and the Clams - The Chapel - SF Feb 1st
DJ Shadow (DJ set) - The Independent - SF Feb 22
TOOL - Bill Graham Civic - SF March 12th
Sleep - Cocoanut Grove - Santa Cruz March 22nd
Neutral Milk Hotel - The Fox Oakland - Oakland April 9th
The Knife - The Fox Oakland - Oakland April 16th
I didn't hear of anything special. We were at the Dec 30 show which did not have anyone unexpected showing up.


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22 U.S. Code § 286uu - Acceptance of an amendment to the Articles of Agreement of the Bank to increase basic votes
The United States Governor of the Bank may accept on behalf of the United States the amendment to the Articles of Agreement of the Bank as proposed in resolution No. 596, entitled "Enhancing Voice and Participation of Developing and Transition Countries," of the Board of Governors of the Bank that was approved by such Board on January 30, 2009.
Source(July 31, 1945, ch. 339, § 69, as added Pub. L. 112–74, div. I, title VII, § 7081(a),Dec. 23, 2011, 125 Stat. 1258.)
The table below lists the classification updates, since Jan. 3, 2012, for this section. Updates to a broader range of sections may be found at the update page for containing chapter, title, etc.
The most recent Classification Table update that we have noticed was Tuesday, August 13, 2013
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LII has no control over and does not endorse any external Internet site that contains links to or references LII.


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Shermans Travel » Mexico
Mexico Destinations
- Acapulco
- Cabo San Lucas
- Cancun
- Cozumel
- Ensenada
- Mexico City
- Oaxaca
- Playa del Carmen
- Puerto Vallarta
- Riviera Maya
- San Miguel de Allende
Popular Destinations in Mexico
What's New in Mexico
Visiting Latin America? Download These Apps
September 18, 2014 by Karen Gardiner Dion
Latin America can be intimidating for first-time travelers. Here are three apps to download, to use with WiFi, to make your trip go more smoothly. Tappsi An ... Read More »
Deal Alert: $147 at Mexico's Hotel Cacao
September 03, 2014 by Kristine Hansen
Is there anything sweeter than checking into a hotel named for the cacao bean, chocolate's essential ingredient? Turns out, there is --Hotel Cacao, opening on ... Read More »
Book Now: Where to Go for Thanksgiving 2014
August 29, 2014 by Christine Wei
If there's one responsible thing you do over Labor Day weekend, let it be solidifying your Thanksgiving plans. We know it's difficult to think ahead to the next ... Read More »
Q&A: Ted Allen from Chopped Talks In-Flight Magazines, Mexico, and Airport Food
August 15, 2014 by Hilary Sheinbaum
As the star of Food Network's Chopped, and former judge on Bravo's Top Chef, Ted Allen can eat. And eat. And eat. But when he's not eating, or jamming out to ... Read More »
Deal Alert: Capella Pedregal in Cabo San Lucas
July 25, 2014 by Kristine Hansen
Your very own plunge pool. A dedicated butler. This kind of beach resort experience must cost an arm and a leg, right? Not so at Capella Pedregal -- at least ... Read More »


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Meeting Minutes
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Dodie Day
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School of Business - Room 116
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Academic Affairs News
David Mazel to continue scholarly work in retirement
Mazel retired this spring from his alma mater as chair of the Department of English, Theatre & Communications, a post he held since 2010. Read More …
Adams State launches College Assistance Migrant Program
The program launched July 1, and is available for the coming fall semester. CAMP participants will receive financial aid and stipends to completely cover tuition, fees, and housing for the first year. Read More …
Dr. Teresa McCartney honored as Emeritus Professor of Counselor Education
The Adams State University alumna recently retired as Emeritus Professor of Counselor Education, concluding a career that encompassed teaching, administration, and student services. Read More …


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Private practice
16 January 2012 | Updated: 16 January 2012 9:07 am
Related Articles
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1 October 2013
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24 March 2014
Freshfields feels Alibaba's pain
4 October 2013
Take-privates by US-listed Chinese companies are now a good earner for US firms. By Yun Kriegler
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An old Chinese saying states that the wheel of fortune is ever turning, and this is certainly true for many Chinese companies listed in the US.
A little over a year ago Chinese companies such as Youku.com and E-Commerce China Dangdang were the darlings of the US market after achieving staggering performance in their New York IPOs. A mere six months later a spate of accounting fraud allegations questioning several Chinese companies' financial practises have dealt a major blow to the valuations and reputations of all US-listed Chinese companies. In 2011 no fewer than 20 companies, mostly those that went public through reverse mergers with a public shell, were forced to suspend trading and delist by the stock exchanges for violating regulations.
While things are still looking gloomy, some companies' fortunes have taken another turn that will most likely be for the better. The management of Nasdaq-listed Shanda Interactive Entertainment, Funtalk China Holdings and New York Stock Exchange-listed China Security & Surveillance Technology, among several others, have decided to delist voluntarily through management buyouts (MBOs).
More than a dozen of such take-private transactions were announced or completed in 2011, supplying a vibrant flow of deal activity for leading US law firms. Shearman & Sterling and Skadden are enjoying the lion's share of this market, having been involved in 10 and nine transactions respectively.
The two firms often meet across the deals table. In the $2.3bn (£1.5bn) take-private transaction of Shanda, for example, Shearman is advising the buyer and Skadden is acting for JPMorgan, the financial adviser to the buyer and the sponsor of the transaction. The deal is expected to close in the first quarter of 2012.
The average total legal costs and expenses of taking a mid-cap US-listed company private is estimated at $5m or more, usually exceeding the cost of an IPO of a similar company. In the Shanda deal, in addition to Shearman and Skadden, seven other law firms have also been engaged.
In terms of deal count, a group of elite firms consisting of Davis Polk & Wardwell, Latham & Watkins, O'Melveny & Myers, Simpson Thacher & Bartlett and Weil Gotshal & Manges are not too far behind Shearman and Skadden. Lower down the pecking order a dozen other US firms have also scooped roles in one or two such deals so far.
It is only natural for US firms to dominate the instructions for go-private transactions of US-listed Chinese companies. However, a couple of magic circle firms have made appearances, aiding their long-term bank clients. Clifford Chance, led by Hong Kong partners Matthew Truman and Neeraj Budhwani, acted on the Shanda deal for JPMorgan, while Allen & Overy, fielding Hong Kong partner Walter Son, won the role for HSBC and Citigroup Global Markets Asia, which served as the underwriter of the debt facilities for China Fire & Securities Group.
Adversity and opportunity
The global capital markets and M&A landscape had its share of volatile times in 2011, but for certain US law firms, particularly those with strong China M&A and private equity practices, the adverse situations have created new demands for legal services.
Skadden Beijing partner Peter Huang co-headed the firm's transaction teams in all nine China-related deals alongside Hong Kong-based senior M&A partner Michael Gisser.
Huang says: "The inability to raise additional capital by the Chinese issuers due to depressed prices and lack of liquidity in the US markets, coupled with the high cost of maintaining public company status in the US and the increased risk exposure to short sellers' attacks, have prompted them to consider going private and delisting."
Skadden has carved a niche for itself representing the management and buyer groups in Chinese companies' take-private transactions. In six out of the nine transactions the firm has been buy-side counsel.
"We think we'll continue to see new deals in 2012 and we know several companies' management are thinking of going private. This type of transaction has become a meaningful part of our M&A work out of China," Huang reveals.
One of the fundamental reasons behind the emerging wave of going private and delisting among small-cap and medium-cap Chinese issuers is the undervaluation of their share prices. That said, the low valuations have been seen as providing good investment opportunities by an increasing number of private equity firms and strategic investors. Almost half of the MBOs of US-listed Chinese companies are backed by private equity groups.
Weil Hong Kong managing partner Akiko Mikumo has advised on three transactions so far, including the ongoing deal of Fushi Copperweld. On the Fushi deal she is representing private equity house Abax Global Capital in its joint bid to take the company private. TPG Growth Asia, represented by Ropes & Gray, is another private equity fund backing this deal.
"The low valuation of many Chinese businesses listed in the US presents great opportunities for private equity funds to invest in good Chinese companies at relatively low prices," says Akiko. "We expect to be involved in a few more deals this year. Taking listed companies private is a long-established practice, but transactions involving Chinese issuers have opened an exciting new space for this practice. It's part of a natural development cycle for a listed company to go private, but in the context of Chinese companies it took us by surprise because it happened so fast. Just 18 months ago there was still an incredible US IPO and listing boom among Chinese companies. Now the market's turned on a dime."
Davis Polk is another active adviser in this area, mostly representing private equity investors. The firm was instructed by Abax on the Harbin Electric deal, with Hong Kong-based Mark Lehmkuhler as lead partner.
"Lots of private equity funds are keen on making such investment in the challenging climate. But they're also worried about companies making accounting frauds – among several key matters they've put significant emphasis on due diligence issues," says Lehmkuhler.
Pulling power in the East
While challenges in the US market are the obvious driving force for the go-private phenomenon, what is happening in China and Hong Kong is an equally important contributing factor.
"Companies listed in Hong Kong and Shanghai generally enjoy higher market valuations than those of their competitors listed in the US. The valuation diversity is very relevant to the wave of delistings in the US," says Gregory Puff, a partner in Shearman's Hong Kong office. "If there was no alternative for companies to raise funds elsewhere, few would consider delisting from the US."
Puff noted that in some circumstances companies have delisted in the US with the full intention of relisting in Hong Kong or China.
"Although there hasn't been any proof in the market yet, I believe the next two years will see some of the relisting considerations starting to materialise," he says.
Many lawyers disagree with the market's general perception that the regulatory frameworks in Hong Kong and China governing public companies are less strict than in the US.
"Thresholds for listing on the main boards in Hong Kong and China are higher than in the US, although the US has more stringent disclosure requirements," says Jonathan Zhou, a Shanghai-based partner at Fangda & Partners, who recently acted as the China counsel for Bain Capital Partners on its MBO of China Fire & Security Group.
"Some companies that are listed in the US won't be eligible for listing here."
In addition to higher valuations, the management in Chinese companies have increasingly come to realise that certain companies are better appreciated closer to home, where investors usually have a better understanding of their businesses.
"I see the go-private move as a fairly understandable reaction to the basic business proposition. A great part of the transactions are a result of well-considered and prudent business decisions, responding to the current business and capital environment," says Pillsbury China head Tom Shoesmith, who recently acted as company counsel on the go-private transaction and delisting of China Security & Surveillance Technology.
But will this delisting trend lead to a dearth of future IPOs of Chinese companies in the US?
"There's a continued emphasis on Hong Kong and Shanghai in the global capital markets," says Puff. "That's been true for a while. Companies will be more interested in listing in this part of the world without a doubt. But I don't think US capital markets lawyers in Hong Kong will pack up and go home. There'll still be some listings in New York, particularly in the healthcare, internet, banking and some traditional industries."
In the context of all the changes in the market, perhaps the influx of US firms entering into Greater China and launching Hong Kong law capabilities in 2011 could be a step in the right direction.


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We're excited for Doctor Who Series 7 premiering Sept 1 on BBC AMERICA and now fans can win a pair of tickets to the NY screening!
To win Doctor Who Series 7 NYC screening tickets: email email@example.com with your name, mailing address and date of birth. *YOU ONLY HAVE TO ENTER ONCE!* (YOHTEO)
Fans have until Thursday, August 23, 2012 at 4:30pm EDT (24 hours) to enter. You must be 18 to enter.
Official rules for the Doctor Who Series 7 NYC screening tickets sweepstakes are available here: http://bit.ly/nyscreening_rules
FYI: we've made the contest into an email sweepstakes to make this as simple and fair as possible. The entry period is 24 hours so that there's no having to pay attention to Twitter or YouTube or Kik or whatever at a particular time or anything.


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Philip Pelusi, founder of Tela Beauty Organics, introduced his line of USDA certified organic hair care products to the West Coast at a wine and cheese reception at Detox Market, a pop-up store of eco-friendly brands that is enjoying a limited run on trendy Abbott Kinney Blvd. in Venice, CA. The internationally recognized hairdresser and entrepreneur created age-appropriate looks for women in their 20s, 30s and 40s using products from his Tela Beauty Organics line.
"Every hair cut I do has similarities," says Pelusi, "but it's like working on different fabrics." Think of curly, slightly frizzy hair as cashmere, baby-fine hair as chiffon, hair that shows every mark as linen, and long, thick hair as cotton. On baby-fine hair like Jo Ann's, Pelusi created what he calls invisible structure by layering her hair but keeping the layers longer and not doing too many of them.
Aubrey got a dry set. First, Pelusi worked a little Tela Beauty Organics Healer through her hair. "It's a cream that can be used on wet or dry hair," he says. Next, he created four ponytails, which he twisted and pinned into place. After about 20 minutes, Pelusi removed the pins and used his fingers to create subtle waves. "This is an easy set for women to do at home," he says.
To style Nicole's long, thick hair, Pelusi used a combination of Healer and Dri Shampoo, which he uses like a setting spray. "It has no polymers and no resins so it doesn't leave a residue when you brush the hair out," says Pelusi, who used a curling iron to set Nicole's hair, then used his fingers to brush it out.
Leigh was growing out a severely layered cut, which Pelusi softened a bit. After spritzing her hair with Encore—"It's like Healer on steroids," he says—Pelusi used a flat iron to smooth the hair about halfway down her head, then used a curling iron to create loose waves at her neckline.
|Philip Pelusi created four ponytails, which he twisted and pinned into place, to create loose waves on Aubrey.
| Pelusi gave Aubrey a dry set, then finger-combed her tresses.
| Pelusi gave Leigh, who was growing out a severely layered hair cut, a soft bob.
| The trick to giving clients like Nicole who want the option of wearing their hair up or down is to keep the layers long and not go too short on top.