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Certain yogis have remarkable—and proven—abilities. Why does mainstream science remain skeptical?
Posted Aug. 10, 2010 by IONS Staff in Extended Human Capacities
commented on June 8, 2014
photo by jmhullot
Certain yogis have remarkable—and proven—abilities. Why does mainstream science remain skeptical?
Ancient yogic lore discusses special abilities, called siddhis, which may be attained through the disciplined practice of meditation. From a modern perspective, tales about siddhis are usually dismissed as superstitious nonsense. But when systematic science is applied, abilities once regarded as impossible, ranging from conscious control of the autonomic nervous system to perception through time, are found to be possible after all. This doesn't mean that all yogic lore is true, but if we've overlooked even a tiny proportion of our remarkable capacities, what does this imply about the full range of human potential? And what does it imply about the way that mainstream science has marginalized or ignored such abilities?
What do you think?
- 130 Comments Log In or Sign Up to Add a Comment
NoetPoet Jun 08, 2014
RealityOverScience Jun 08, 2014
It is the other side of ...yourself... that is seeking you out, not extraterrestrials. It is the reflection/reflect-ion, the mirror image, that folks have inadvertently "alien"-ated from themselves, that is causing that haunting and taunting energy forever seeking resolution.
That's the physics of ...balance... inherent in your (everyone's) existence, that you (they) are experiencing.
When you go right, it pulls you left. If up, it pulls you down. If over, it draws you under. It is your own inescapable "shadow" following you through life, demanding equilibrium.
When you intellectualize too much, it causes you to feel. If you feel too much, it forces you to think! (That's why psychiatrists are so fluent with the true Universal Physics, which they relearn to become psychiatrists capable of rebalancing their patients!)
Likewise for scientists, they are unwittingly, unconsciously searching for THEMSELVES "out there," so if they would learn about their own physics dynamics first, that ability to *reflect* ...within themselves... would lead them to the Answers they seek ...without themselves...! Going into their work blindly is why it takes "centuries" for scientists to find their Answers.
NoetPoet Jun 07, 2014
"failure to understand logic is not my problem."
It clearly *is* a problem for you.
Hellseer Jun 06, 2014
good soup takes many diverse ingredients. failure to understand logic is not my problem.
NoetPoet May 25, 2014
"Well, these things have been around for thousands of years and modern western science only a few hundred so what modern western science thinks of is irrelevent. Even when they say they are looking at or studying something, they don't even know what they are looking at. Most science is done by people who are paid to do a singular job in a capitalist state of extreme division of labour, they are paid not to think about it."
Your ability to bundle a diverse set of logical fallacies into one paragraph is quite impressive!
Hellseer May 25, 2014
Well, these things have been around for thousands of years and modern western science only a few hundred so what modern western science thinks of is irrelevent. Even when they say they are looking at or studying something, they don't even know what they are looking at. Most science is done by people who are paid to do a singular job in a capitalist state of extreme division of labour, they are paid not to think about it.
Jim Centi May 24, 2014
Most, if not all the books I've read, going back even before the birth of IONS, may not have mentioned terms such as "paradigm shift" and "transcendent reality", but they contained the spirit of those terms.
The same is true for the recorded lectures I have been drawn to.
This spirit is often then conveyed in other forms of media such as this forum, movies and less formal, more intimate conversations. The spirit then seeps through the density of the herd or consensus reality and gradually some, perhaps subtle, degree of cultural transformation occurs.
I have the impression that the book I have been promoting will follow this pattern. I will promote or discuss the book further only if others bring it up.
You have admitted that, like the author of this book, you are an atheist.
I must admit that this book has drawn me closer to an understanding, if not an attraction to atheism; in that, there is a somewhat strange sense of liberation that may or may not take hold.
My purpose in participating in Discussions is to contribute to making it attractive to a wider audience that enjoys discussing ideas. Eventually, I would like to see friendships develop to the degree that lighthearted jesting and humor replaces aggressive confrontation. My attempts at that with you have not been successful.
If you wish to discuss ideas, I may join you. If you follow your recent pattern of personal attacks against me, my intention is to resist the temptation to engage you.
Best wishes,…..Jim
dustproduction May 23, 2014
Re: Perhaps it is part of some cosmic plan that we humans occasionally encounter the unexpected from each other.
We orient around a singular coherence when in fact everything is multi-coherent.
NoetPoet May 23, 2014
"You are right, to a degree; in that other reality, there is no "me" or "I". The use of those terms is a necessity of language that I cannot find a way around, with any degree of comfort."
And yet you said "i became something that was not born and will never die", which strongly suggests that you ARE in fact identifying it as an aspect of your self. If this were not so, then it would have been easy enough for you to phrase your statement more appropriately, e.g. "I felt all aspects of my self-hood give way to something eternal and transcendent which was utterly beyond any sense of 'me'".
"Your comment does not reflect that you have read the book "Living with a Wild God". This book builds the strongest case that I can imagine for the existence of a nonhuman or extraterrestrial "something" that is attempting to interact with humanity."
Care to outline the key points of this "strong" case? Both for myself and the hordes of lurkers who are doubtlessly champing at the bit to join in this conversation, of course...
"As a former UFO researcher, I learned to identify the misinformation or propaganda spread by agents that intends to distract from or discredit reports of UFO's."
I think you might have missed my point: our culture and our neurology has ingrained in us a strong inclination to personify our experiences. In the past people personified unusual/impressive experiences by assigning a divine agency to them, e.g. attributing them to the work of a god or a spirit. In more modern times such divine beings have become less plausible, so people like yourself have instead chosen to personify unusual/impressive experiences by associating them with ETs. Indeed your background as a UFO researcher makes you even *more* inclined than most other people to have this particular perceptual bias.
"I have the impression that it represents the emergence of a mind expanding paradigm shift."
Careful Jim - "mind expanding paradigm shift" is exactly the kind of term that will set off any decent quality BS detector.
"A simple short comment from others, such as "I have read the book and agree or disagree with what you say", would be sufficient to reflect that we are not a solitary couple engaging in mental masturbation."
The only one fondling himself here is you Jim.
"If you agree to create such a topic, I will not blow your cover as did Bob."
Was that another poorly worded attempt at sarcasm? Don't tell me you actually buy into that delusional nonsense Jim. I thought you had more sense then that!
Jim Centi May 22, 2014
HI NoetPoet,
Well, that is certainly not something I expected from you.
Perhaps it is part of some cosmic plan that we humans occasionally encounter the unexpected from each other.
You are right, to a degree; in that other reality, there is no "me" or "I". The use of those terms is a necessity of language that I cannot find a way around, with any degree of comfort.
Your comment does not reflect that you have read the book "Living with a Wild God". This book builds the strongest case that I can imagine for the existence of a nonhuman or extraterrestrial "something" that is attempting to interact with humanity.
As a former UFO researcher, I learned to identify the misinformation or propaganda spread by agents that intends to distract from or discredit reports of UFO's. I have been to the home of such agents several times and they have been to mine. I will certainly not reveal their names.
Based on my years of UFO research, the book "Living with a Wild God" presents the highest form of truth regarding UFO's or extraterrestrial entities that I have encountered. I have the impression that it represents the emergence of a mind expanding paradigm shift.
I respect you and recognize the necessity of the role you are playing; I have enjoyed interacting with it, but I will not play the game of "you said – I said" as you did with Bob Johnston and RoS.
I would be pleased to discuss the book with you, after you have read it. Perhaps if there were a wider participation in Discussions, I would look forward to us exchanging comments with others.
A simple short comment from others, such as "I have read the book and agree or disagree with what you say", would be sufficient to reflect that we are not a solitary couple engaging in mental masturbation.
Perhaps a topic should be created for a discussion of the book rather than distracting from this topic. I see no rush to create such a topic; sufficient time should elapse for others to digest the contents of the book and consider participating in the discussion.
If you agree to create such a topic, I will not blow your cover as did Bob.
Best wishes……Jim
NoetPoet May 21, 2014
@Jim Centi
"In that transcendent state, I became something that was not born and will never die and death was recognized as an absurdity. This direct knowing (conceptual thought not involved) brought on a sense of freedom and ecstasy far beyond any concept of freedom and ecstasy that the human mind is capable of imagining."
It's interesting that you say "I became" something that was not born and will never die. Did you really become such a thing? Or are you claiming ownership of this experience simply because "you" have a memory of it? If all aspects of your self – your thinking, your memories, your perceptions etc – were absent in this state, then how can you meaningfully call it "you" or "yours"?
"Then several months ago, after reading the book "Living with a Wild God" I am again standing at the door of that transcendent reality. This book awakened the realization in me that opening the door is not something I (a human sense of self or ego) does. No, the door is opened by a nonhuman or extraterrestrial entity or entities that, perhaps at their whim, may invite us in."
While I see and agree with your point that "you" were not responsible for this state, I think you are making an error in attributing it to some other entity. Why personify it at all? Is it possible that you have inferred a culturally-derived perception of personality onto your experience after the fact?
"I do not believe that something like this could be incorporated into traditional science."
Never say never – scientists are already capable of inducing OBEs, NDE-like experiences, and lucid dreaming in people. Profound Samadhi-like experiences can't be far behind…
Jim Centi May 19, 2014
Since the IONS staff posted this topic, I have gone through some changes.
First a bit of background:
I began meditating about forty years ago and after a few months, entered that state often referred to as Cosmic Consciousness, Enlightenment or Samadhi etc. The experience only lasted about three hours.
Although I meditated religiously for many years after the experience, it never returned.
A little over a year ago, I became interested in the Neuroscience proclamation that the human sense of self is an illusion. This struck a chord with me because in the state I entered, it was very clear that beyond the human self with its mundane concerns of everyday life, there is a transcendent reality that is much more real and profoundly beautiful.
In that transcendent state, I became something that was not born and will never die and death was recognized as an absurdity. This direct knowing (conceptual thought not involved) brought on a sense of freedom and ecstasy far beyond any concept of freedom and ecstasy that the human mind is capable of imagining.
With the neuroscience information deeply embedded in awareness, I had the thought "At last, science is at the door of transcendence." This brought about a sense of hope for humanity, but my subjective experience remained; somewhat bored with the human superficial existence.
I had abandoned my dedication to meditation for several years, but after the neuroscience info I began to practice it again, but only occasionally.
Then several months ago, after reading the book "Living with a Wild God" I am again standing at the door of that transcendent reality. This book awakened the realization in me that opening the door is not something I (a human sense of self or ego) does. No, the door is opened by a nonhuman or extraterrestrial entity or entities that, perhaps at their whim, may invite us in.
That book ends with the words quoted in a comment to my topic REBIRTH OF MIND. There is a paragraph quoted and then the final words "it is seeking us out."
Had I been so talented to write such a book those are not the words I would have chosen. I may have ended the book with something like the following:
"We are being courted by one or more nonhuman or extraterrestrial entities to have an experience outside the human cocoon of space and time." I think that ending would be more romantic or enticing and not so ominous.
I have the impression that what proper meditation does is place us in a deeply relaxed state where we are willing, perhaps unconsciously, to abandon the human sense of self. What comes next is not something we do; it is something that may happen to us.
I do not believe that something like this could be incorporated into traditional science. Thank you IONS staff, for the opportunity to address what some refer to as mysticism.
RealityOverScience Sep 16, 2013
By the way, you don't want to DESTROY the ego, let alone "kill it," because you are going to need it "on the other side," so to speak.
You just need to set it aside for awhile, so it doesn't interfere with the relinquishing of control, required by Universal Physics itself to realize *balance.*
Later, when you return to it, it will have been restored to healthy balance, as well.
RealityOverScience Sep 16, 2013
I "offer that procedure which actually gets you there," and I've provided the first steps to take on these boards, but, well,...horse to water and all!
You (generic) can't go around and around the universe, hoping to find the Answers, BECAUSE OF the true nature of the Universe itself. It'll never happen, which is why science is so stuck. Instead, you have to "catch it" in its true *stillness.* But, already, that is SO over people's heads that they just dismiss it. And around and around they go!
Letting go of control, and risking trusting oneself enough to trust that another could actually possibly guide them "there," is terrifying to most folks, and the first impulse is usually anger. That, in itself, IS part of the process of "doing the work!"
Eroding one's own defense mechanisms and comfort zones out from under oneself is frightening, and it takes courage to consistently do enough of that work to begin to realize that NEW and accurate defense mechanisms and comfort zones move in to replace the faulty ones. Once over that hurdle, the joy and intrigue of realizing the true Universal Processes taking place help to then multiply exponentially everything else from there.
But fear of letting go, and risking...including, for many, "the wrath of God," ...keep nearly everyone rushing back to their perceived safe places.
It takes intelligence, as the Dalai Lama says, to hold onto your every next "ladder rung," so every time there's a difficult or painful hurdle to get through, you don't slip back down to the comfort of convention.
sachin Sep 15, 2013
Much time is wasted in discussion on how I am more right and more knowledgeable. When all members possess a certain knowledge on the functions of the brain, meditation, etc. one should start this development of brain without much ado and write abt their experiences. Many techniques bring u closer to realisation. Many faiths have their own ways. But there r very few which offer u the precise procedure which gets u there. Kundalini yoga for eg., if done properly makes u master of the universe. The problem lies in destroying ur ego. Also if not done properly it may leads to incurable madness.
The basic principle to attain siddhi is to kill the ego. First understand what is ego then go in for its killing. It is not killed by willing its killing. One should not misguide himself that the ego is killed. Realisation dawns once it is understood how it is to be killed. Then the goal of yogic meditation fructifying its zenith is reached. Ego is beyond consciousness.
Try the yogic technique of Chidakash Dharana. Get it thru proper guidance and dont believe at all the the internet is informative on it
dustproduction Sep 09, 2013
That Wim Hod can accomplish what he does is not surprising to me. We are capable creatures that place our own limits on ourselves in many ways.
This post called to mind a TEDTalk, http://www.ted.com/talks/lewis_pugh_s_mind_shifting_mt_everest_swim.html
"After he swam the North Pole, Lewis Pugh vowed never to take another cold-water dip. Then he heard of Lake Imja in the Himalayas, created by recent glacial melting, and Lake Pumori, a body of water at an altitude of 5300 m on Everest -- and so began a journey that would teach him a radical new way to approach swimming and think about climate change."
hypnotherapy_sf Sep 08, 2013
Incidentally I have JUST sent an email to Noetic Institute in the hope of creating a USA research collaboration with such a modern-day yogi (Wim Hof, aka "The Iceman" for his practice of tummo-like technique) who demonstrates 'remarkable' autonomic nervous system, cardiovascular, and immune system control. In recent research he demonstrated in a controlled study in Europe that he can train others for 'unusual' thermoregulation and immune-system modulation in a short period of time (not years, like with traditional yogic training).
Mr. Hof is a 20-time world record holder in areas of human performance and endurance, especially in the cold. You can find him feature on you-tube, History Channel , Discovery Channel, BBC/ National Geographic, etc. I am a friend and collaborator of Mr. Hof here in the USA.
If anyone is conducting relevant research or has contacts to establish a research project with him, please contact me firstname.lastname@example.com
He will be visiting the SF Bay Area briefly Nov 6-11 and teach a workshop Nov 9-10.
NewtTrino Aug 05, 2013
RealityOverScience Aug 05, 2013
"Do the work!"
That's all you have -- and not even an original thought. You are free to babble. I am tired of wasting my time on the parts of your assertions that are clearly erroneous. I'll move on and try to ignore you...
RealityOverScience Aug 05, 2013
Do the work!
NewtTrino Aug 05, 2013
Your own words incriminate you. If you are claiming to save lives with your super-consciousness; then you have exalted yourself with superhuman powers. YOU DON'T KNOW UNIVERSAL TRUTH -- If you claim to then you do have a Messiah complex. Physics do not change -- they are either correctly explained and proven or not. Physics and math need to have universal constants or NOTHING makes sense. I don't know it all -- but neither my friend do you...And one of your buzz words -- convention -- means a set of agreed, stipulated, or generally accepted standards. The rules do not change because you say they do. You have strong believe -- but no empirical proof...
RealityOverScience Aug 05, 2013
YOU are the one constantly putting me on a pedestal so you can then have the pleasure of knocking me back off again. None of all your "holier than thou" stuff is coming from ME! First you accuse me of thinking myself a "messiah," and, failing that, now you're accusing me of cornering the market on divinity? I don't shop at that market!
Divinity is a concept invented by convention, to fulfill and support the needs and assumptions...of convention!
Universal Truth uses a very different physics, and is therefore totally undaunted by conventional expectation.
NewtTrino Aug 05, 2013
" "Doing the work" requires one to humble oneself to the process, and to set aside everything one assumes or holds most dear to them. It will tear down all your defense mechanisms, redirect your religions, redefine your cultures, etc., and people you think you know so well will become total strangers to you, and strangers you thought you never knew will become closer to your heart than ever before imagined."
Yet you are still here... You will not find divinity for anyone but yourself no matter how much work you do. I am no more will to buy your mantra than you are to buy mine. And I can assure you that I trust my heart and mind every bit as much as you do your own. And I am open to truth. But humanity is not divinity. We conquer our demons one battle at a time. The frailty and fallibility of humans will be more work than you could ever accomplish alone -- or even with half of all humanity.
There is a need for positive and negative force. It is what propels the universe. It is the row we must hoe. Or to paraphrase 'doing the work' The 'work' is your own -- not mine - not everyone elses...we all have our own path. The collective will morph and evolve, but never at the same rate as the individual. Just as planets will be sucked in to black holes and be recreated as conformed energy; we will be transformed by growth, decay and resurrection. So save yourself. I am fine...
RealityOverScience Aug 05, 2013
Conventional rules of reasoning (which are only in place to protect convention!) keep the world endlessly at war, because everybody's so afraid that somebody else, another culture, another religion, another whatever, will get ahead of them, and it all becomes a battle of ego.
Consciousness, Enlightenment, is not subjective. Everybody and everything, every event, happening, the weather, etc., all share the exact same physics at the Core. You can take it anywhere on the planet or off, any culture, religion, science, etc., and debate the heck out of it, and that Core will prove itself again and again! This has been realized for thousands upon thousands of years.
The ONLY way you will realize that is to genuinely put forth the effort to "do the work," which teaches you how to discover those inescapable truths within yourself, because you are born to fluently realize the true physics, because, being a part of the Universe, it is your Core physics, as well.
"Doing the work" requires one to humble oneself to the process, and to set aside everything one assumes or holds most dear to them. It will tear down all your defense mechanisms, redirect your religions, redefine your cultures, etc., and people you think you know so well will become total strangers to you, and strangers you thought you never knew will become closer to your heart than ever before imagined.
Consciousness, Enlightenment, IS the inescapable realization of the true mathematical physics process that the Universe is using/doing, (and so much more), AND that mathematics itself is NOT the Ultimate Process at the Pinnacle (NOT the Ultimate Universal Language!).
There is soooo much more, all realizable!
"Doing the work" is VERY REAL, and there is no going back once one has begun. Sure, "most people run away SCREAMING!," to quote The Neverending Story, but they will forever be haunted by how much they had glimpsed so far.
Be careful what you wish for, because once you start opening that Pandora's box, your life will never be the same!
dustproduction Aug 04, 2013
Is math fiction?
NewtTrino Aug 04, 2013
No ROS -- there are not two truths going on -- only a myriad of interpretations. Math and physics are truth. How the equations are correctly understood will reveal what truth is. What you or I say is truth will always be subject to the empirical data. Neither of us have the master key yet -- only a shared key that will only work when there is consensus. Otherwise it is opinion.
dustproduction Aug 02, 2013
RealityOverScience Aug 02, 2013
Regarding "doing the work:"
There are "two truths" going on in the Universe: What the Universe is REALLY doing, which remains completely undaunted throughout, and what convention (the collective unconscious human world, all around the world) assumes it is doing, based upon their traditions, cultures, and religions, etc., that they have established for themselves, in their efforts to basically survive.
We are all born to realize the REAL Universal Truth, to fluently *remember* the Universal Process, because we are a part of the Universe, so it is our physics process as well! But once life slaps on the "pink and the blue," the "this and the that" of conventional expectations, well...almost everyone loses that original gift they were born with, into the distraction of convention (what everybody else is doing).
This is why children often have extraordinary abilities, such as photographic memory! They haven't fully lost access to their real physics yet! The older they get, the more they "forget!"
This is why Buddhist monks, for instance, get little children to be monks as early in their childhoods as possible, before they get SO distracted that the road back into Universal Reality becomes a very long and arduous and painful process.
Most folks live out their entire lives, never ever figuring it out! This is soooo sad, because humans are far more than they realize. Hence, the sages' abilities!
All throughout human history, those who have *remembered* the true Universal Process and see the Chaos and suffering of the distracted convention, and who have tried, with compassion, to share it, have indeed been severely persecuted, punished, imprisoned and/or put to death! (There is ample evidence that Jesus was one of them!) This is where much of those "secret societies" have come from (minus all the copycat varieties), because they gave/give people "in the know" a place to socialize with like-minded others, without fear of persecution, etc.. People were "burned at the stake" for realizations convention was terrified of!
None of what comes from Enlightenment/superConsciousness is mystical, magical, metaphysical or fantastical, etc.., all those "new age" labels that convention loves to place on it, almost armor-like! It is all VERY REAL, all actual very serious physics, the kind distracted scientists could only dream about having access to!
Convention CAN rediscover it, but it is very hard work, and it can be very, very painful at times, because folks have generations upon generations of "vested interests" in all their belief systems, and will sooner kill and go to war, than to relinquish those vested interests. It feels like death to those who have to realize their lives have been founded upon distraction, so it terrifies people, and they destroy the messenger instead!
Learning, step by step, how to redirect oneself is what is called..."Doing the work!"
RealityOverScience Aug 02, 2013
** Regarding the ESP, telepathy, precognition, etc., studies I mentioned... It is not the serious documentaries saying they are studying all the wrong things, in all the wrong ways. *I* am saying that, because I am fluent in what those are, and so I am able to recognize that where those folks are looking, and their methodologies in their efforts to prove, disprove, and document them, are very seriously flawed!
In other words, there is a very real Universal physics behind them, but what those researchers are doing has nothing whatsoever to do with that very real Universal physics! Again, it is convention using conventional reasoning, to try to understand something that has nothing to do with convention!
Kinda like looking for an elephant in a canary cage!
RealityOverScience Aug 02, 2013
My very legitimate concerns with scientists are when the vast majority reaching the public, through various sources, such as television programs, news, documentaries, radio, etc., make blatant statements, such as "No one can predict earthquakes!" and "No one can predict the future!," and "Precognition is Impossible," because those are absolutely WRONG (because there's actual Universal physics proving that!), and those very naive statements are costing millions of people their lives, billions over generations, because those folks are considered trusted "authorities" and directly influence emergency services personnel, law enforcement agencies, political leaders, etc., who hold the power over whether or not innocent people get to keep their lives every day! All sorts of other important decisions are made, as well, based on false statements made by scientists who, by social status alone, are considered "experts!"
Problem is, science is primarily rooted in convention, and uses conventional rules of reasoning, which are ONLY in place to support...convention!
Universal Truth, the REAL physics that the Universe is using, is completely undaunted by the collective unconscious convention, and so are its devastating events, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, tragedies of all sorts, including human-initiated tragedies. So, when conventionally-influenced science has not evolved enough to remove itself from its conventional trappings, it can do one heckuva lot of harm and damage, costing thousands, hundreds of thousands, or more, of people's lives...in as much as a single event! (Indonesian/multi-country tsunami, tragedy in Sendai, Japan, earthquakes around the world, etc...)
Scientists are trying to protect the reputation of "science" so they are taken seriously, but the problem is that they are being taken seriously when they haven't earned the right to be, with horrific results that the world needs to know about, because the collective unconscious convention has inadvertently positioned equally unconscious "authorities" in place to protect them, completely unaware of what they've done!
When hundreds of thousands of people are being killed in a single event, and countless others in tragedies all around the world, it is no longer about protecting the reputations of those scientists, or their science, and the priority becomes selfLESSly trying to SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES! If they require their feelings and needs to be considered, those need to BE included within their work, so they CAN achieve the Balance that the Universe requires, and not only suddenly become part of the aftermath when tragedies slip by!
Toward that end, science needs to concede that it has taken some really serious wrong turns, and redirect itself on behalf of all sentient life, and begin that redirection by learning "how to" *listen!* (To those sages!)
RealityOverScience Aug 02, 2013
Evidence of science's disinterest in such things comes from "where" science, itself, IS, in its level of understanding and processing. In other words, the reflection of those studies, should they be taking place, would be evident in their work.
There are various levels of "science" taking place in the world. Highly classified science would be what is going on at, say, Los Alamos, "Area 51," and behind other "very closed doors! Then, there are the relatively public sciences, such as what takes place at universities and science labs and organizations around the world. Many of these folks are very likely spending (inadvertently wasting) billions looking for answers the more classified guys have already had for a rather long time! (World studies going on with ESP, telepathy, precognition, etc., as shown on serious TV documentaries, show scientists looking for their answers in all the wrong places, using all the wrong methodologies, etc.!). There are also the media scientists, who try to find ways to balance themselves between the university lab folks, etc., and what the public (convention) can handle or digest. There are also those who present their theoretical ideas in comedic and (often at times) ridiculous manners (for the public itself), as a way of exploring and presenting those ideas, without having to "own" anything and lose their reputations, should they ever be proven wrong.
There ARE those who are trying to figure out why it is that science, in general, keeps running into its still very active "old boy school's" notion of "soft science," aka "philosophy." While most are not at all accepting of it, and looking for ways around it, others are displaying the courage (often at the threat of losing a serious career reputation or tenure), to, say, join the Dalai Lama in his presentations, as he travels around the world addressing issues related to the various sciences. The Mind and Life Institute has gotten their attention and interest, for example.
There are a relative handful of studies being conducted on Tibetan monks (and others), to explore what takes place in the brains of meditating monks, including fMRI studies, and others exploring how it is that some monks (certainly not those at novice levels) can maintain healthy body temperature, when exposed at length to freezing environments, etc...
(To be continued...)
dustproduction Aug 02, 2013
Where is the evidence that science ignore these people? There is the claim by no evidence?
NewtTrino Aug 01, 2013
RE: ROS -- "Do the Work!"
What work my friend? Give me a source to examine - a bibliography - names - anything...'what? Nothing? I thought as much. Your claims are totally unfounded and without merit.
RealityOverScience Aug 01, 2013
Borrowing the Dalai Lama's response to bullies:
"Do the Work!"
NewtTrino Aug 01, 2013
Agreed Moodysj...
RE: ROS "Statistics *wise,* you'll have to take that up with the major university dept, heads I interviewed for books I was writing on superConsciousness at the time! I was quoting them! (They corrected my "< 5%.")"
I don't believe you have ever written a book. What sources are you quoting? "Major University Department Heads" do not shoot from the hip with unquantified statistics. You are a delusional quack. And I am 100% sure of that. haha.
moodysj Aug 01, 2013
Science is a very simple tool/method to increase knowledge. Lets not confuse science with people who do science. People who do science are juts like other people and have a wide range of viewpoints on religion, philosophy, consciousness and so forth.
Science is simply: Have an idea. Test it to see if it is true or false. Learn. Move on to next idea - based on what i just learned.
Unfortunately this process costs time/effort/money and there is competition for which ideas get funded for testing. Many mainstream scientists talk about ideas like these all the time and projects have been funded in the past - unfortunately many have found no repeatable evidence. These are hard things to test though - and perhaps we need to devise better experiments. Scientists are constained in what they do based on the available funding - simple as that. Imagine you held the funding pot - one group of scientists says they are developing a drug to save babies dying during child birth, the other says they want to test the supernatural abilities of Yogis. Mainstream science isn't interested because this stuff is not mainstream - they have other things to do. If every town had a Yogi routinely performing supernatural ability - it would be getting heavily funded.
Organisations like the IONS should look to fund scientific testing of these ideas. If e.g. Yogi exist who have these powers it should be possible to test them, record the results and publish a paper, talk to the media etc etc.
RealityOverScience Jul 31, 2013
Statistics *wise,* you'll have to take that up with the major university dept, heads I interviewed for books I was writing on superConsciousness at the time! I was quoting them! (They corrected my "< 5%.")
As for the unconsciousness of scientists... (to quote The Neverending Story):
"Fancy armor doesn't help! The sphinxes can see straaaaight into your heart!" ;)
NewtTrino Jul 29, 2013
RE: "Consciousness is extremely difficult to *grasp* for most people," --
That is why only "waaaay less than 1% of the entire world's population" is Enlightened (Conscious)!
Do you not realize that it is incredibly ignorant to claim to know these kinds of statistics. Your view -- while you are free to espouse -- is unfounded in known fact. If your perceived work "involves redirecting them back to where they've taken that wrong turn," do you not realize how arrogant and disrespectful that is to those who have spent their lives dedicated to hard work and honest pursuit of truth as they see it.
There are many among us capable of heightened senses of enlightenment and spiritual power. We should be open to the unknown. But we should also share our experiences in a transcendental way. We may not be able to bring everyone along on the journey nonetheless. It takes openness, awareness and discipline to achieve higher consciousness. Our intent can help shape the collective. But sometimes we must seek peace in the eye of the storm lest we be washed away by the current of doubt and ignorance. There will always be skeptics. You can only provide a beacon not a leash.
RealityOverScience Jul 29, 2013
Conventional scientists are unwittingly UNconscious, including of the reality that their science is a "religion" of (conventionally emulated) faith-based "rigidity," "in a Universe of quite the contrary!" As a result, they are now running into their dreaded "philosophy" and are insulted by the inevitability of their having taken a wrong turn!
My work involves redirecting them back to where they've taken that wrong turn, primarily to save people's lives (and to advance science/quantum Answers, etc), and to help them understand both the physics of why they have run into "philosophy," and their universal responsibility to selflessly redirect themselves.
Consciousness is extremely difficult to *grasp* for most people, and it can be terrifying for those not ready, and scientists are likely going to be among "the last to know," because they have such a vested interest in the ego factor (societal status) of their perception of "science," that has to be relinquished for them to become *far more highly evolved!*
Consciousness / Enlightenment is something that has to be realized from *within,* alone, and people are social creatures who follow "what everybody else is doing" before they trust their own instincts. It is only when one is secure enough as a becoming-balanced human being, and has learned through *doing the (very hard and scary) work* (of becoming Awakened) toward the true Universal Reality, that one will journey into complex, abstract areas of higher truths alone, to experience for himself or herself what is genuinely *there!*
That is why only "waaaay less than 1% of the entire world's population" is Enlightened (Conscious)!
Joseph Smith May 14, 2013
Hey bestearth, good thinking!
Speaking of Lindberg's flight across the Atlantic, I've my experience in the Bermuda Triangle as proof that our minds are beyond our skulls. I was in a time warp. It happened in late August 1976. You don't hear about it because I was not lost at sea. With three friends, I was on my way from Nassau to Palm Beach, Florida on my sloop "Bold Venture." We sailed into tropical storm Dottie. For 10 hours, sailing a course 70 degrees off my original course, to the north on the north moving Gulfstream, battling high wind and thirty foot seas, inexplicably, we arrived at our destination at my estimated time of arrival, only to find breakers completely across Lake Worth Inlet. Something told me to go for it. My friends were so seasick they couldn't care what happened. With seas breaking on both sides, we slid down a wave that never broke into the inlet. My friends called it a miracle.
bestearth May 14, 2013
I think there's plenty of evidence. I guess some scientists won't include the personal experiences of people as valid. One I can think of is Charles Lindberg's flight across the atlantic, 1927. This flight was more than 33hrs, in the "Spirit of St Louis", one man, one radial engine, no view forward as the windscreen was now part of the fuel tank. No navigation equipment, no gps, no radar vectors, no autopilot and navigating by dead reckoning. I read he had an experience where he fell asleep and his consciousness expanded outside the aeroplane and took over while his body slept. That means controlling the aircraft by some other means. If you fell asleep wouldn't your hands fall of the control stick? Does that qualify as ESP?
The scientists do acknowledge the power of the mind to heal, but they don't call it that ,they call it a placebo effect, which they seem to regard as a nuisance effect. But it's actually an admission. They just can't get their head around the idea that it's not allowed to work that way. They are trying to achieve everything through the conscious mind which can only analyse. But it's the subconscious that knows how to do things, its got the knowhow, the intuition, the imagination and experience because it's connected to the archive of the soul. Science does great work but it's just been hampered by special interests. It seems that the scientists who make breakthroughs have a common trait. They all share a spiritual mind, Einstein, Max Planck, Tesla, Haramein to name a few.
I think it's sensible to believe in God. I've met athiests who think such beliefs are a sign of insecurity and fear of death. But if it gives you oxygen, so what?
There's an interesting account of group of men forced to abandon ship. In the lifeboat they had no drinking water for days that became weeks. The story is that the captain led the men in prayer and asked them to imagine and visualise fresh water. They focused so hard in facing death that they caused a miracle, When they dipped their hands in the ocean the water was not salty but had become fresh green water. And these men were not yogis.
The account is in this 1hr 20min documentary about the properties of water and the breakthroughs in understanding which seems to indicate that water is some kind of liquid supercomputer. Here it is http://www.chinesehealthandfitness.com/#WATER
Joseph Smith May 12, 2013
Susan Blackmore studied ESP 30 years and found no evidence to support it. Distinguished philosopher and cultural historian Richard Tarnas, in a 30 year study, found consistent correspondence between planetary alignments and the archetypal patterns of human history. Quantum physicist and brain doctor Evan Harris Walker noted that Einstein did not believe in a personal God yet he sought to bring order to the universe by a unified field idea. We see that objective reality is a flawed and incomplete conception of reality, said Walker. The only thing that works is a personal God, he noted.
"In earth as it is in heaven," said Jesus, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God." Jesus said the kingdom of God is in you. He distinguished earth and heaven as being material, and you as spiritual. We need to take into consideration that the universe is both quantitative and qualitative. Then we'll find evidence that ESP is real.
Joseph Smith May 12, 2013
The cutting edge of science has now admitted that without consciousness nothing could exist. From nothing you get nothing. What else? Consciousness is the something without boundary. Through conscious awareness, we transcend time and space. What we are capable of knowing is limitless, and we're not the only intelligent beings in the universe. We could soon be part of a galactic community. By the way, what happened to the Neanderthals?
Joseph Smith May 12, 2013
Authorities are people respected as better educated in their fields, therefore, someone qualified to give advice. I learned the hard way. Which would you say is better, a PhD or 87 years of experience? I listen to what the authorities have to offer and base it on my personal experience. In my twilight years, I'm counting my blessings.
NoetPoet May 11, 2013
Perhaps professional scientists tend to remain sceptical because they want to be as clear and sure as possible about what is going on. I've read that Charles Darwin's approach was to come up with a theory and then keep trying to disprove it. I think this approach is reflective of the scientific approach in general, so if by sceptical you mean "never willing to accept as finally proven" then scepticism is a good thing.
The human element is also important. Scientists worry about their reputation and egos like everyone else, and this is not as childish as it might initially seem. For example if a scientist were to test a yogi's special abilities and conclude that they were real, only for it later to emerge that the yogi had duped the scientist with an elaborate illusion worthy of a world-class stage magician, then the scientist's reputation and career would be destroyed and the scientist would be personally humiliated. Given that yogis have been known to fake extraordinary abilities in the past, it would be quite understandable if a scientist didn't want to expose him/herself to such a risk. I think that most scientists would actually jump at the chance to discover something truly ground-breaking, but the risk of being duped by charlatans is a strong deterrent to investigating the abilities of yogis. As such it is difficult to find a scientists willing to investigate the abilities of yogis who are not a) delusional fantasists desperate to believe that miracles are real or b) dogmatic sceptics determined to prove the non-existence of all things paranormal. This situation creates a vicious circle in which the study of "paranormal" abilities is increasingly perceived as the domain of loons and debunkers, and that anyone who chooses to enter this field of study can therefore only be either a loon or a debunker.
We should also consider the yogis' point of view. Even if a yogi's abilities are genuine, the yogi might get benefits from their abilities such as political power, money, sex, fame, the devotion of followers, and reinforcement of his/her own sense of holiness. If a scientist did come up with a scientific/materialistic explanation for a yogi's abilities (e.g. by showing they are a product of neurological processes or DNA) then the yogi's claims to divinity could be seriously undermined, causing the yogi to lose access to those benefits.
The personal incentives and risks facing both scientists and yogis pose a major obstacle to discovering the full range of human potential. Overcoming this obstacle will require considerable courage, integrity, selflessness and vision from scientists and yogis alike.
bestearth May 10, 2013
The mainstream scientist is afraid of what he doesn't know and his career is based on a fixed body of knowledge. At college i had a math professor come in, walk out in front of the bank of seats, present the course notes with two hands held up to his mouth , he blew hard and all this dust flew up into the air filling the front section with dust, people were coughing and he proudly said."these notes haven't changed in 30 years of teaching them, the only thing that changed is the year date on the front cover.
I heard someone call the current situation " reverse Galileo" where it used to be the scientist who was the out of box thinker and the cold hearted authoritarian priests of religions demanded you subscribe to their theories on faith. But now tables have turned. The religions are opening up, accepting women as priests , accepting gay people into their congregations, tolerant of hybrid and new age spirituality. And now you all know the new priests are some of the more 'everything is brain' type scientists who demand you accept their nihilism on faith and that you regard the mysteries as a fraud.
I found the Garden of Dreams game from Ions really interesting way to develop your intuition EHC. Here's the site www.psiarcade.com
Jeanine Broderick Jan 24, 2013
OK, there is something else I need to say.
I see, in mainstream science, a lack of depth to their inquiries.
For example, the disparate health results among minorities and/or those raised in rough conditions.
Then the off-setting influence of a caring and loving Mom that can offset the health disparity for those who do not remain in poverty for life.
Then take the disparity of health outcomes for people with income of $60,000 with the same cost of living. For those surrounded by others who make roughly the same the health is better than those who have wide variations of income around them with $60,000 being near the lower end -- even though their $60,000 buys the same goods, services and medical care as those in the more homogeneous environment with the same income.
They take the jump (totally unsupported) that the solution is less income disparity!
The solution is that the ones in the more homogeneous group do not find fault with themselves, do not find themselves lacking when comparing themselves to others around them while the ones who are in a more disparate income environment find fault with themselves thus experiencing more negative emotion. The health benefits of positive emotion are well documented. Just the meta-analysis from Harvard (pub 7/2012) shows a 50% decline in RISK of getting heart disease when positive emotions and optimism are higher. Now that will give you a disparate health outcome. We don't need to change the social structure of the world. We need to teach people how the negative thoughts impact their experience (they also reduce success, cognitive ability, and earning power-more mainstream research supports this) and give them skills to find more positive thoughts. We need to do the same with those raised in rough environments--that is why the supportive Mom's make a difference. The ones with a supportive Mom are kinder to themselves in their thoughts and probably have a higher opinion of self. The same Harvard meta-analysis showed that the absence of negative emotions was not the same as the presence of positive emotions--neutral does not get the health & other benefits of positive emotions.
Do the mainstream scientists go this deep? No! They jump to the irrational and unsupported conclusion that it is the disparate income that causes the problem and not the perception (which is absolutely and totally within the control of the perceiver if they are being conscious) and want to turn us all into socialists--totally discounting the value of the motivation to better oneself that propels so many forward. Take that away and you'll see health declines (and productivity declines) become rampant and they'll be scratching their heads wondering where they went wrong!
All the science is there. The "turn everyone into socialists" concept is a political agenda and the science does not support it. Nor does human thriving research.
♡ Jeanine
Jeanine Broderick Jan 24, 2013
Alex John - a word of advice. Be kinder to yourself in your thoughts and words. Your life will be better for it.
I've really enjoyed reading many of the comments in this post. I especially appreciate all the effort that MysticalSadhu put into his responses. I was also delighted to see someone who referred to himself as a "mainstream scientist" here although his presence and somewhat openness to these ideas makes him slightly out of the norm of mainstream.
I had an interesting experience. I am not a scientist. I am a scholar who has been studying what makes humans thrive regardless of the source of the information. I use my own guidance to help me separate the wheat from the shaft of what I find. I describe "my guidance" many times on this site so I won't go further here.
I was invited to participate in a peer reviewed book on resilience this past year. I wrote, edited and had some citations. Then the peer reviewers came back and anything I could not cite to another published work had to be removed. Thankfully I had spent much of the past few years finding scientific support for what I had learned on the spiritual path so I was able to find citations for all the main points I wanted to keep in the paper and my chapter was ultimately included in the book.
What I found remarkable was there was no room for someone who has been studying this for a long time, and because I am so passionate I spent much of my leisure time as well as work time learning all I can about human thriving to have reached any conclusions that were not already published elsewhere. Much of what I cited was an understanding gained on my spiritual path that I found science to support. I have personal experiences with many individuals who have made remarkable improvements, overcome chronic depression and completely shifted their lives to not only better -- but far better than most would have thought possible -- overcoming and re-framing early traumas and dramas that haunt many people for life. Yet if I was unable to find the science to support it -- it was thrown out. I was so thankful that my focus the last few years has been on devouring the science support so I could build bridges to help more people learn to thrive.
It gave me great insight as to why science moves so slowly and why solutions to problems take so long to reach the people who need the help.
That is my only real frustration. I see the solutions to many problems but because mainstream science does not support it - it is not reaching the people who need it. I would really like to not wait another generation or two or three for the solutions to get where they are needed most. They are so simple and so easy and so beneficial.
♡ Jeanine
dustproduction Dec 24, 2012
Scientist such as Susan Blackmore studied ESP for 30 years and found that no evidence to support it.
There is a vast misunderstanding that it is not in the interest of the sciences to investigate claims. Certainly IONS is applying scientific methods into its research. But why is it even necessary for science to establish the validity of something if it is true?
parker Dec 24, 2012
If indeed a "modern perspective" exists, it most certainly holds every characteristic of an ancient one; that of skepticism which is inherently an aspect of human nature. Science remains skeptical, because in addition to their skeptical human nature, scientists have been specially trained and programmed to be scientific. The scientific method of proving that which makes it into scientific lore, does not favor that form of immeasurable, yet practical common sense also inherent to human nature, that enables recognition of the human potential, and which by its very existence, overrides any need for, or justification by scientific proof.
It is obvious then, that the inherent shortcomings of science and its scientists, are not to be blamed for marginalizing or ignoring human potential, it is merely that science is simply incapable based upon its own limited protocols. Seeing that the original questions were posed by the IONS Staff, perhaps the better question would now be; "Why would anyone suspect that science could validate the human potential, when in fact, science cannot even recognize it?"
Thus it is proper that science (as science has defined itself), marginalizes and ignores human potential. Likewise it is proper that we resist temptation to seek validation of the vastness of our human potential from such a constricted source.
Otto Krog Nov 24, 2012
Does anyone share the experience with the oneness in SpaceTime with me? I think that the only thing we have in common as spiritual beings is space and time. What do you think? www.crestroy.com
dustproduction Nov 22, 2012
Science is only a religion to those that believe in an ethos version of science and do not participate in its practice or in learning its methods
Otto Krog Nov 17, 2012
Science of today has become more or less a religion. The good thing is that the religion is on its move. It is not impossible to change dogma, but definitely not easy either.
Otto Krog
dustproduction Oct 30, 2012
A young friend and PhD candidate that I correspond with, Mitch Smith, wrote the following about the Buddhist Attachment Cycle:
"It would be useful to get FRMI images showing the axonic topology of a Hindi or Buddhist adept for comparison to the non-adept structure.
Are you aware of any such investigations that have been attempted?
I indicate that the core self somehow undergoes a capitulation of identity from the true core to the accreted delta body used to instantiate each new intra-personal "dyad" - aka "self image". Meditational techniques might be refined by having a physical demonstration of the exact structures that correspond to the initial state, the capitulation, and those that correspond to a reset of the initial state.
It is all very well showing the dynamics of the topological potentials. But the "attention frame" phenomenon also needs examination.
Has any work been done on that?
I can understand that internal/external sensory cues can precipitate topological chains of association, but at the moment, I cannot see the factor that determines the breadth of that causality (the frame governing breadth of consciousness - the focus/concentration factor)."
sashank.macharla Oct 29, 2012
Our true potentials as science calls it have mostly been part of a more non-human entity - either divine or demonic, as in the widespread and long held beliefs in the west. Naturally, if there is someone who claims to be in possession of these 'divine' powers, he is ridiculed and sometimes ignored because most minds simply cannot accept the fact that it is human too.
and because our modern science took its birth in such societies which had this strict discrimination between humans and god on the basis of these abilities, it just seemed absurd and superstitious to it - so much in fact that it refused to look into these and even when it did and found them for real, unconsciously chose to ignore them because its a mind set that's been coming down from quite sometime.
and its a good thing that this is not the case anymore.
because science just said that to be truly and fully human is to be divine.
Otto Krog Oct 26, 2012
I think the culture we live in, here in the western world, has deep roots in the middle ages. At that time the Church had full control, and suppressed scientists that observed facts that didn't fit into the Bible. Science took ower control during the last 150 years, and now they don't want to give religion (spirituality) back it's power. I think this is ok, but science has become more or less a religion itself. Einstein is the profet, the speed of light is the holy ghost, and Big Bang is the allmighty.
Fortunately most scientists aren't that fundamental in their beliefs, and they accept new observations when they are valid.
The future will bring observations that will change physics.
I might very well be wrong, but I have my own theory and guesses about what futuristic physics will be like.
My idea is that antimatter is the mirror of this universe.
I think that the subconscious mind and consciousness are located in parallel universes in the form of antimatter. That makes the spirit and God all physical, so basically I could be said to be an atheist, even though I consider myself spiritual.
If you would like to know more, then check out my theory at
Ponsie Oct 13, 2012
What we hear of science's 'opinion' is mostly through the materialistic culture it is imbedded in. Science is, I think, not an opinion, it is an attitude, an intention to discover the truth, and it can do this in any realm including the metaphysical realm. Unfortunately our cultural priorites bow to the demands of its paymaster which is almost exclusively physical security. My particular interest is in healing so, for me, a good example of this cultural predicament is reflected in the supposed scientific basis of the pharmaceutical industry and the medical establishment which supports it: the joke is, this notion of a scientific application is pretty much limited to acute medical situations and ignores the critical information that all our experiences of suffering are psychological (ie rooted in the psyche) and are not physical. This one-sided view of existence (clearly evident if you Google 'iatrogenic') explains, from one angle, the difficulty of engaging main-stream 'science' on the profound effects of human consciousness.
telephoenician Oct 08, 2012
Chemistry derives from alchemy. Philosophy and mathematics are the same subject; cf syllogistic calculus. Once upon a time, if you said 'calculus,' you'd've been referring to the syllogistic variety. The list goes on... astronomy/astrology...
But science is science, and magick is magick, and ne'er the twain shall meet.
dustproduction Oct 07, 2012
There is a question posted on the discussion board that asks if science bashing exits. Isn't the term "mainstream science" a vague and some what derogatory term. The "S" in INOS stands for Science. IONS has a vested invest in pursuing "scientific" explanation for PSI. I might understand if this question was posted by someone other than "IONS Staff."
telephoenician Oct 06, 2012
It's the stuff they teach you in school. Safe, boring, peer-reviewed... funded... The others are all mad.
dustproduction Oct 06, 2012
What exactly is "mainstream science?"
iamonesoru Jun 13, 2012
Our beliefs about what is possible and what is not possible are much more important than we "believe". Because we do not really know what is ultimately "true" everything we believe to be true is true for us now, from our perspective or point of view, which is based on what we believe to be true.
We have been taught to ridicule ancient yogic lore, not because it is ultimately true, but because our belief that we might also have remarkable capacities might cause us to explore the possibilities of our own potential, and through changing our beliefs, we might possibly begin to manifest remarkable capabilities ourselves.
This is seen as dangerous by those who profit by our beliefs that we need someone more powerful than us to protect us, lead us, fight for us, or intercede with a greater power in our behalf. If we realized that we are just as powerful as "them", why would we "need" them?
Systematic science does not believe in the power of belief, and so they deny its potential, even when they see it demonstrated with their own eyes precisely because belief is so powerful, and this has been proven through quantum mechanics as what we misunderstand as "quantum non-locality".
We must admit that we misunderstand it because we have not come to fully realize and understand the full implications of what quantum non-locality really means. The same can be said of relativity.
Certain concepts such as meditation, re-incarnation, and the chakra system, are misunderstood for this same reason, and have been ridiculed, and even demonized, in order to keep us from giving them serious consideration so that we cannot come to fully realize and understand the full implications of their meanings, or learn how important a practical understanding of these things are to basically every aspect of our lives.
slowlygetnthar Jun 09, 2012
In April of 2012, I was at a conference which was attended by some notable physicists, neuroscientists and science journalists. When a college student, in the audience, asked a panel of them what they thought about these sorts of "extended human capacities" that were demonstrated by yogis, lamas, & practicing lay people, the response was "I haven't seen any valid research on these sorts of things."
It was like a bolt of lightning. The reason mainstream science doesn't validate this stuff is because most scientists who have "made it" in their disciplines do not take the time to LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE. So, when you run across these folks, start sending them IONS research. Then, they cannot rely on this lame excuse as a reason to poo-poo some genuinely breath-taking scientific investigation into remarkable phenomena.
parker Mar 27, 2012
I do not personally know any Yogis, so my thoughts on their perceived abilities are not worthy. I did spend some time with a Monk that meditated religiously for nearly 40 years, and then abruptly stopped the practice. When I asked him what his most valuable lesson learned from his meditation might be, he quickly replied that he had learned 2 valuable lessons.
First, he finally learned during the last few minutes of his final meditation, that he had always possessed the one thing he had believed for all that time he must search for. And second, his time spent meditating had robbed him of 40 years he could have spent actually using and benefiting from that thing he now realized he had all along. What he sought, turned out not to be the mystical mystery his brothers had led him to believe.
Then perchance we met, and he found me willing, so he graciously took a few moments and shared what he learned in his final few minutes of meditation with me, and so I have done with many who have been willing since then,
Thus being humbled into such an acceptance of what is, we were all enabled to continually enjoy what many others would a "Yogi's special abilities", or perhaps "noetic" experiences, yet we merely learned to experience the fullness of the joy and of the knowledge that is the experience of the life that was always within each of us.
Some are blessed with healing or being able to heal, some with powers to influence or to manifest, some able to move or alter shapes of objects, some with wisdom and understanding of the great mysteries, others with the knowledge to solve great difficulties, to end conflicts or to balance inequalities, but none of them have been called Yogi, notwithstanding many Yogis may have also learned to do these things.
The greatest ability of all, is not when we learn to share these abilities, rather it is when we learn to share the benefits of these abilities. Then we are capable of the joyous fulfillment of our temporal purpose, for we will be doing that which is our collective temporal purpose - to share.
Dallon Mar 26, 2012
I have to admit I did not read those comments.. However, i believe that the unwillingness of the scientific community to accept PSI abilities is because the scientific view of our reality is so limited at this point. I think this will change very soon. Not because of some "awakening, prophecy" etc. but because evidence of this behavior is growing. Interestingly I believe it is the growth of this behavior *as many others do* that actually leads to more instances of this mind matter interaction being present in the world. I do not believe this is simply because we are now paying attention to them but because as the realization of this possibility dawns on people it will become easier for everyone as a whole to manifest these abilities.
Saoirse Dec 31, 2011
"If they can't explain it, it doesn't exist."
This make no sense in the context of science. If it were true, science itself would not exist as a method, because there would be nothing to study. Modern medicine would not exist. We would not be searching for cures for diseases -- because if we didn't understand the cause of the disease, we wouldn't accept its existence, so how would we study it? Science is about looking for explanations for things we don't fully understand yet. But it's not about accepting our beliefs and wishes as reality. Its purpose is to take our observations and ideas and test them empirically, so that we don't fall into the trap of believing only what we find appealing to us. If you had to have surgery, would you rather have it done by a trained surgeon or by someone making it up as he goes along, based only on beliefs he finds appealing? Would you rather the anesthesia be one that's been tested and found safe and effective, or one that's never been tested? There's a lot of antiscience rhetoric on the site, but I wonder how many of the members would be content to live with the conditions that existed before the scientific method was developed.
Sky Walker Sep 07, 2011
Because it has been deliberately suppressed in the mainstream science, and because scientists haven't been willing to look at the facts ie to actually go and investigate yogis for full.
Metaphysicist2 Aug 04, 2011
Mainstream science remains sceptical, because of the conditioning of the mind in our public education system, which is agnostically oriented (there is no Deity, or spirit, or energising, immortal self), and foolishly believe that mystical, heavenly experiences are delusional or psychotic. I submited a paper¹ in 2002 to Dr. Edgar Mitchell, in response to his: "Nature's Mind: The Quantum Hologram, in which I said that I had the answer, or technical metaphysical rationale for, "…the energy transfer mechanism by which the classical states of a remote object are affected." The answer was/is "the law of attraction," however, Dr. Mitchell, being admittedly agnostically oriented at the time, rejected the answer, because it was/is a "metaphysical assumption" or conjecture. In May of 2010 I ran across his Quantrek website and, after reading his "Dyadic Model of Consciousness," realised that he had changed his mind, subsequently, I submitted a letter in response in June, and he responded favorably to it. So, hopefully, it's just a matter of a short period of time before he and "his team" work out the mathematical formalism, receive the Nobel Prize in Physics, and inaugurate a new scientific paradigm.
¹ http://www.qdeansloan.com/papers/pdf/natures%20mind%20the%20quantum%20hologram.pdf
Leigh Aug 01, 2011
I believe, generally, there is one extraordinary being in every hundred, no matter what his or her profession, skill, or gift. While the percentage of proficient yogis might be high, not all yogis will be blessed with remarkable, proven abilities, though with practice and genuine devotion, more will prove their proficiency to the scientific community.
Youngbear Roth, RYT/CYT Jul 12, 2011
Certain yogis have remarkable—and proven—abilities. Why does mainstream science remain skeptical?
Science is dynamic and often courageous, however, its fundamental purpose is to understand and learn to control what is here - what is finite - through repeated laboratory measurement; a finite method of proof.
Yoga siddhis (abilities) are meta-finite, they are beyond the finite. Perhaps science can configure blind studies to measure the results of siddhis (healing; mind control as body effects; etc.). Still, the scientific method of finite measurement cannot (thus far) track the cause, abilities, or siddhis themselves. Yoga is also dynamic and often courageous, however, its fundamental purpose is to understand and learn to control the meta or infinite through the finite. This purpose demands an acceptance of finite proof (such as laboratory measurement) as well as an acceptance of the theoretical - faith, the measurement of elementals which are meta in nature.
dre3733 Jun 16, 2011
Im not a yogi, or anything close to it but I am occasioally capable of things that I cant even explain. I have a fairly consistant ability to well... see the future for lack of a better term. Dont know how to use it really, cant control it but coming from a totally intellectual place It seems well over due to openly research the abilities of man that may seem to skeptical people to be impossible. We clearly have something a touch different from all the other animals on this planet. Lots of different kinds of animals that have been here in many cases longer than us... but for some reason we are the only group for which the proverbial lights have come on. Why?
Walter Cruttenden May 22, 2011
Great question. We could just as well ask, why was a heliocentric system not accepted 500 years ago in spite of the evidence? The yogis themselves have answered the question.
Both Paramahansa Yogananda and Sri Yukteswar have stated, in "Autobiography of a Yogi" and "The Holy Science", that as the solar system moves through space the earth goes through alternating Dark and Golden Ages; something Plato called the Great Year. In the lower ages we understand little and in the higher ages wisdom knows no bounds. We are just barely out of the recent Dark Age and mankind still knows almost nothing of the lost wisdom or advanced states of consciousness in general. But just as spring follows winter so too are we now in an awakening phase and will soon understand the larger cycles and much more, including the science underlying yogic abilities. By the year 4100AD, according to these sages, "telepathy and clairvoyance will once again be common knowledge". In the meantime its nice to know the Institute of Noetic Sciences has created a platform for discussion of the higher truths.
Fallensoul May 22, 2011
morrisha:Commentin on your response to PathOfDivineLife.
A true yogi understands that if you feed a person today, tomorrow they are hungry again. The problem of hunger remains. All you have provided is symptomatic relief and while this is a valuable thing, a noble thing -- it is not the ultimate solution. Why am I being challenged by hunger and thirst in the first place? You may be able to find a cure for one disease, and provide temporary symptomatic relief -- which has its value, but why am I being challenged by disease in the first place? Why am I in ignorance? So a yogi, gaining knowledge from higher authorities, focuses his energy and time in solving the root of the problem and tries to help others do the same. So whose contribution is minimal to human affairs? Symptomatic treatment which can be summed up as: "Operation successful, patient died." or the yogi's contribution of transcending the miseries of this world headed by death, disease, old-age and rebirth.
Even if we consider the "untrue" yogi -- who has some extraordinary power and may be using that for his selfish interests. The point is that his powers go against the bedrock of modern science belief. That we're material in nature and that the physical laws of nature are all that operates. So the mystic yogi directly challenges mainstream science - its strong evidence that something interesting is going on - and if their acquisition of powers has been attained through some higher source of knowledge -- what is that and what else do they say about these powers and other things? This is the point of the discussion. This has direct impact on our society, who is currently under the grip of materialistic dogmatism as these mystic yogi's, the genuine ones, are powerful exceptions to the materialistic rule. See Prahlad Jani for instance -- claims to not eat or drink or use the bathroom. No explanation after observing him for over a month.
Regarding your rather benighted statements about yoga and ayurveda. Have you even ever tried yoga and ayurvedic medicines or have practical experience of the medicines or some practice of yoga?? If by taking the ayurvedic "placebo" -- it consistently works on the body's "unconscious ability" to heal itself, then maybe it isnt a placebo at all. If by performing bhakt-yoga you actually develop your relationship with the Supreme, then that's one great placebo.
I agree with you that a true yogi is not a modern scientist. A true yogi is a true scientist i.e one who is able to accept that our reality is outside empirical methods and that higher spiritualism is very much a part of reality. A scientist is interested in understanding reality wherever it leads.
Regarding Jill: Reincarnation, nde's and obe's completely challenge this idea. One can also be fully conscious with only half of either brain.
Could it be that the Eastern science yogis simply have a better textbook than the mainstream scientists? More interesting? What else is revealed?
morrisha May 03, 2011
"A true yogi lives for society and the downtrodden"
How so, and, so what ? They do not feed people, give them knowledge to ease their breaking backs, cure them of their diseases with any regularity beyond placebo effects. In fact, their contribution to human affairs remains and has always been, minimal. Paramahansa Yogananda did not appear to be a miracle man parading his unusual talents in a Barnham and Bailey freak show, rather his concept of self realisation was all about transcending ego consciousness and attaining god realisation. Miracle men appeared to be merely side shows to stimulate interest in a spiritual greater purpose. I fancy the yogis in his book were either confidence tricksters or more likely persons with no special talent in the first place.
"Yoga, Ayurveda (the medical practice of Vedic age based on herbs etc), Healing, etc are all gifts from the true yogis"
Poppycock - this stuff is a placebo effect that works on the bodies unconscious ability to heal itself when unencumbered by the ego, the mind or the psychological soup that allows stress to block natural healing.
"Yogis are also scientists"
Absolutely not. They are at best people that might assist someone to aspire to a higher spiritualism. Under no circumstances do they provide a scientific prescription for anything.
Consider what happened to Jill Bolte Taylor, [http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html] she appears to show that there is a neuroscientific base to "self realisation". Could it be that these yogis have sufficiently mucked about with their brains blood oxygenation to emulate her experience and dress it up as holy science? Given a choice, I think I would rather take LSD!
PathofDivineLife May 03, 2011
@ Morrisha...Hello ! Your concerns are very true...Many Yogis get into the demonstration of Siddhis to generate popularity for themselves. The common people like us call these as miracles and these techniques allure people into throwing big $$ into their coffers. A true yogi lives for society and the downtrodden. Numerous examples of such yogis are available specially in Indian literature I suggest you to read 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. This is fantastic book. An eye opener about life of a yogi.
Yoga, Ayurveda (the medical practice of Vedic age based on herbs etc), Healing, etc are all gifts from the true yogis to the society and these techniques have gained wide acceptance today. There are many cases where spiritual science has come to the rescue when medical science has been unable to address.
Yogis are also scientists. They confine themselves in remote & lonely locations just like modern scientists do by confining themselves in their laboratories. They use nature and their body as laboratory. They show us the path of awakening divine qualities within. An awakened person is a gift of God to the society. He/She alone can uplift many individuals from the state of suffering by sheer power of consciousness which the equipments like computer, machines can not achieve.
morrisha May 02, 2011
Certain yogis have remarkable—and proven—abilities. Why does mainstream science remain skeptical?
What has a single yogis contributed to human affairs beyond parlour tricks and human endurance exercises so easily replicated by the likes of David Blaine and Derren Brown.
What machines, computers, technologies, chemistry or science has come from the pen of a yogi employing siddhi powers? The reality is, the content of their consciousness does not extend to providing something useful that we can all use or even seek to replicate.
I expect for poor and uneducated peoples, these yogis provide some sort of spiritual comfort, but for the scientific community they remain an irritating distraction from the real business of moving humanity on in its study of the universe and the dominion man might seek to have over it..
Sure, there are likely to be areas of cross over and joint understanding, but until these holy men/women provide reasons, explanations and testable theories that can help move the debate on, they are a waste of time.
slowlygetnthar Apr 28, 2011
Oh, Tommy07777...sure hope she changes conselors....I was recently working with a college writing teacher, discussing student essays. She wanted to fail any student who referred to souls or meditation. She was not a religious person. She was an aspiritual person and could tolerate no reference to spiritual inspiration of any kind. So, it is not just scientists enforcing silence about the great mysteries. Some young people are losing semesters worth of work because they ventured to posit that perhaps something was "good for their souls" or they mentioned meditating or dreamt of yogic levitation!!!
I see dismissals as "failures to communicate." When these happen, they sure do seem like knee-jerk, fear-based reactions. I think your are right, in that "scientists" (and aspiritual writing teachers) are not comfortable stepping outside of their clearly defined boxes. I have met very few scientists who will do so.
Anyway, I do find some hope in the way that, somewhat organically, common people are slowly evolving scientific methodologies for trying to comprehend paranormal events. These will inevitably precipitate what will become bonafide sciences. It may take a very long time...but there is *hope*
tommyo777 Apr 26, 2011
Some authorities, scientific & otherwise seem to deploy a fair amount of emotional energy in maintaining their position against what they won't accept, as well; the 'flustered dismissals' of concepts outside of the norm, reek of insecurity. Or is it absolute faith in their knowledge, as in the response given to Galileo, to the effect of: I refuse to look into your telescope, to view something that my religion tells me does not exist-
She's not a yogi, so this may be a bit OT; apologies in advance. My Wife has chosen a counselor for uncovering some childhood memories, and made the mistake of mentioning the insights that she regularly gets: some simple, as when the son lost his wallet, Wifey says after some thought, "check by the side of the house", where it was promptly found; deeper insights as well...well of course, the counselor is now more concerned with educating her that she's mistaken/delusional to think that she has any such ability, than to help her with the task for which he was commissioned.
slowlygetnthar Apr 25, 2011
Sciences have not yet evolved to where they can measure the spirit, the weight of the soul, or the range of human capabilities.
As the sciences are now, funding for research is not granted for the paranormal, articles aren't published in peer reviewed journals if they are about topics like levitating yogis, and the folks who go ahead and do the research on their own nickels are regarded as quacks. They are not granted time at conferences to present their ideas and may be laughed out of professional circles. We don't get research into these sorts of things because folks who have worked to get higher degrees won't stake their hard-earned careers fighting their predominantly narrow-minded peers. Moreover, they would have to struggle against the very highly controlled system of information validation, by going out on a limb to investigate what science has determined to be pseudoscience/paranormal/spiritual/esoteric/metaphysical. Very few people have that integrity--making me deeply respect Edgar Mitchell for taking the risk and founding IONS.
Well, the word "science" means "to know," but what does science know?--only how to hypothesize, verify, replicate, and validate what it already knows. Change sciences to be called "hypothetical explanations of reality." Let "scientists" reposition themselves to that new definition of what they do, and then, set about their work. Only then, will we see more humility in that realm in trying to decipher spiritual realms of this existence. What is that quote: Science may someday discover what faith has always known. . .?
Our souls are omniscient, so let's listen to them. In the meantime, foster hope and encourage these Medieval "scientist" clods measuring everything to catch up to what our souls already know.
cprize Apr 19, 2011
Science and most credible orgs are run by disbelievers. How can you expect them to accept what they think is not possible? Even David Suzuki (a noted Canadian scientist/broadcaster) doesn't believe SHC is possible. Their fear of ridicule and being perceived as gullible is greater than their ability to believe. How many years after the Wright Bros flew at Kittyhawk was it that scientists were still saying heavier than air flight was impossible? How many still say it is impossible for someone to walk barefoot over burning coals and not get burnt? Or how can a fakir www.cprize.org/fakir.jpg (no longer permitted to be buried underground) do this?
wolvie14 Mar 24, 2011
I remember, as a young child, reading about a yogi that during a night dried towels that were soaked with frezing water with his body heat. The number of towels he dried was astonishing.
I feel that scientists, at least most of them, have evolved as to negate the very existence of anything spiritual. They seem to want humans to be limited. They seem to want the Universe to be a random event. So, anything that challenge their spiritual-free worldview is dismissed.
It seems to be a reaction to the religious right predominence in society. These 2 groups are making bridging the gap between science and spirituality harder.
akash Mar 23, 2011
I like the topic and am proud to be an indian ..What answer you need is just get an authenthic translation of Indian tantric and shaktheyic principles
Authenticity is word i used and i mean it....yogis have remarkable and proven power...through their continous practice they can realise who they really are.
One more thing i really wanted to say is about the pqwer of Mantras...Live aspect and pwer of mantra is hidden in sound which cannot be gained and learnt by reading from an inanimate pages of abokk,for which a guru;s help is needed. The scientist on the basis of their resaerch observed that impact of sound is dependent up on the intensity, vibration and dimension.Hreem, kleem,Shreem,kreem etc are certain mantras which i was unable to find any specific meaning..but spelled in a particular way it can creat particular vibration throuh out the body and the aura will be more at that timee...
There should be adiscusion about the power of sound...........
marcusantonio91 Mar 19, 2011
If I'm honest, even with all the evidence there is pointing to seperate conciousness from the brain, yogic abilities, psi and so on; even I, find it so hard to sometimes contemplate the implications of all this data. Science today is based on the 'materialistic, clockwork universe' and the vast majority of people are conditioned in that way even me to a degree. It is like trying to present a creationist with evidence for evolution, the fight or flight reaction kicks in and they resist. The same is with mainstream science; you rock the boat and they react and unfortunately, if upcoming scientists follow the Dawkins mantra then phenomena and all the evidence for PSI will perpetually be swept away
frequencytuner Mar 14, 2011
Mainstream views the universe through a set of glasses, a filter, a perspective. It can provide half of the equation, but only half. The other half comes from the Yogis, Buddhas, Shaman and Mystics and prophets and esoteric teachings and Alchemists, but it is through an entirely equal and opposite set of glasses: one sees black the other sees white but if you take off their glasses they would both see grey: the "complete equation": Mushin.
This resonates outward from the individual. Why hasn't our individual mainstream consciousness allowed these opposites to peacefully co-exist? What are we afraid of? There is no "Us and Them". Why do we think we are separate beings? This can only be experienced the way we experience it right now within this infinitesimal window of existence because have not done it yet ourselves: removed our own glasses.
EthanT Mar 14, 2011
Most scientists seem to feel that these abilities have never been demonstrated within proper controlled laboratory settings, and therefore they can always claim that some external factor tainted the results, or simply claim that people are just making stuff up.
This is the whole premise behing the Amazing Randi's ( a popular skeptic/debunker ) million dollar prize - that is, that if anybody can demonstrate ESP, or some sort of psychic ability, in the controlled environment proposed, they get a million dollars. I've never looked into his proposed setup, but I am sure it totally misunderstands what ESP is all about. Some have said the whole thing is rigged, but I've never heard any clear explanation on just how so?
I think Daryl Bem's recent paper is the closest we've come to any sort of demonstration that will be accepted by scientists, and look at the contoversy still surrounding this (and it makes you wonder why Radin and many others haven't been acknowledged yet, since they have already done similar work). And, let's face it, it's not the strongest proof of ESP in the world!! 53.2%?? It even has me, a full-fledged "believer" in ESP wondering if there is really anything to it.
Bottom line - In general, the current paradigm and mind-set that scientists and skeptics work in is not capable of accepting ESP or similar human abilities. The materialistic mind cannot get a handle on them. It needs a mechanism to envision, and it needs to be "reduced" into the reductionistic paradigm the scientific community has comfortablly ensconced itself into. Thankfully, we do see a hint of change away from that these days and a potential for greater acceptance in the future.
Also, on the side of science, I don't think we have that many people that are talented enough and consistent enough to demonstrate this to them either? Somebody that can do better than 53.2% and do it within the lab consistently? Do we? If we do, why haven't they done so, to help us bridge this gap between science and spirit? I think we are in a place where something like this can finally be done, and the scientific community can begin a slow (and maybe painful?) acceptance.
desertrose Mar 14, 2011
We are living in a "gizmo dominated" society. Anything that requires deep introspection and heaven forbid silence is frowned upon and deemed "uncool", "square, oudated." Sad but true. Hopefully, due unfortunatly to the onset of these cataclysmic occurences we as human beings will understand what is truly happening and realize that at times not even science in all its glorious magnificance can be prepared for it. Only a return to innocence and sacred silence can blanket and undo this mess we have created and are continuing to create. The power is in all of us to do and to undo. I need nothing to prove this to me as I believe wholheartedly in the power of the art mediation. In my humble opinion, hen we get science out of the Corporate Boadrooms things will begin to move in a more positive direction.
Kerian Mar 13, 2011
Early science was entirely based on belief, religion and superstition. The scientific revolution that took place in the middle ages and the renaissance ran out of hand. Many beliefs based on superstitious predjudice got withlaid and ever since one has been very cautious to believe in the supernatural powers of people. Science is acquired knowledge and it is based on empirical experiments that can be reproduced. Opportunist quackery has added to that caution. Moreover organisations tend to put certain leaders on a pedestal on the basis of misplaced loyalty and the lack of a charismatic anchor.
My personal approach to everyone and everything , including science, is a critical approach. There is no reason, but for being gullible, to give anyone credit unless they prove being worthy of it on a regular basis. Is that not what the psi arcade projects of the noetic institute are about. Selecting people that are gifted with intuitive intelligence, healing powers, visionary powers, etc.?
Not withstanding all of the above I am convinced that certain yogis, healers, martial art masters and others have developped amazing powers.
Faith Mar 08, 2011
The film with Amit Goswami Ph.d. "The Quantum Activist" really explains this so well. One needs a different science to explain these yogis abilities and quantum mechanics can.
Liberty23 Mar 08, 2011
Mainstream science research depends on funding and it's funding comes from sources that are ultimately interested in patents and profits - something marketable.
If Kriya Yoga could be grown in the ground from seed it would become illegal just as Nature's wonder plant, Cannabis/Hemp, has been criminalized.
longshorts Mar 02, 2011
I see paragraphs of words from learned people. However, mainstream science depends on these things: simply put, if you cannot see it, touch it, measure it, whatever "it" is, then it doesn't exist. Mainstream scientists are so limited to such a narrow view, they are so restricted that they cannot take a leap of faith to span across the conscious mind to the common mind that the world has produced. I am a communications specialist for the Navy, and for over thirty years I have seen and heard things that the extensive training I have had cannot explain. I have even heard my own voice through the receiver six seconds later after I have ended transmission, and there is no logical explanation for that to happen at all. Yet I did hear it, so I have to accept it. I believe that in all the technological advances we have had, we have neglected the most serious technology that we all have - the Human mind.
mysticmuse Jan 09, 2011
Scientists are human beings.
Some scientists have made a religion of science, or scientism and so consciously or unconsciously defend it.
Some scientists are still conditioned by fundamentalists religion and so consciously or unconsciously defend that.
Some scientists rebelled against religion, and confusing anything paranormal with religion, defend against that.
Some scientists have some other philosophic ax to grind and are limited by that.
Many scientist lack, or have lost touch with, the key experiences that should shape their evolving world view.
Change in science is only partly about reason and research. It is also about change of consciousness.
I think most persons, including the scientifically minded, do not arrive at open mindedness by reason and external education and research. We believe as we do by virtue of what we are.
daebwae Dec 06, 2010
Thank you, I think your comments are very constructive. There's another precedence in which a senior Princeton professor, Robert Jahn, founded the PEAR lab to conduct pk research. I'd like to see other researchers to follow his model.
Scientists do not believe in a set of truths, they believe in a method to find truth. Even uneasy truths are accepted if the proofs are based on a scientifically sound method. Take the longheld assumption that all life needs water and air to exist. Only a few days ago, NASA researchers published research indicating that modified organism can live without both "essential" life elements. The scientific community seems open to accept these findings, if substantiated, which shows that there's an openness to modify longheld beliefs. In your model the scientists would reject the findings out of hand because of their fear for disorder. They don't.
But I have researched some of the paranormal findings and do believe that the requirements placed on paranormal research are more stringent than in other fields. In my opinion they are by far too onerous. The theory that paranormal is a taboo is an interesting model to explain this attitude.
What I'm interested in is another issue and I hope the community can point me to some theories about it. In my mind, laboratory experiments are fine for certain forms of paranormal research but they neglect so much anectodal data and personal experience. I know from my social psychology classes as a fershman that there are other truth findings methods for such research. Are there methods in the noetic sciences that describe a method to verify claims that are irreproducable in labs but may still convince us?
EricIAm Dec 04, 2010
A belief can change ones' perception of reality either focusing or misconstruing ones' understanding. Therefore weekness in ones understanding can be detrimental to that individuals mental wellbeing. Concluding that the safest way to god would be through scripture. If necessary the spirt will quicken the words into understanding, and this path is actually most wise but for unbelievers a second rate truth is necessary for faith which in itself is flawed due to lack of faith. Understand what it means to be of one accord. Be like minded with our bretheren and interested in our heritage, read the bible. Let Jesus Reign.
SLH Oct 25, 2010
Red Dog, because when a bird fails to find food, or a plant is in the shade, if there is understanding there can be a solution.
When the path is lost, surely we need the means to find our way back to it? Not just take for granted the way will always be clear??
RedDog Oct 22, 2010
Who really cares if "mainstream science remains skeptical"?
Does it matter to the bird where its food comes from?
Does a plant care how the sun works?
How would mainstream proof benefit man kind?
If the ability already exists, what benefit does a piece of paper offering
written proof give to you, personally?
What are you seeking? Truth or personal gain?
cameronjcw Oct 08, 2010
I think any body of science or indeed individuals that refuse to open their mind to spiritual practices are only harming themselves.
Maybe one day people and science will open up to the unseen but very real possibilities of "being" and existence.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
5) Iisitva – Iish means to guide and administer. Iisitva enables the spiritual aspirant to guide other people who suffer from different causes. So many people in this world are crying in pain and agony. So many miseries and afflictions paralyse both physically and mentally. lisitva enables one to correctly lead afflicted humanity to their physical progress and psychic well-being.
6) Vasitva means to keep everything under control and properly regulated for welfare. In order to bring people goaded by defective ideas to greater thresholds of evolutionary excellence, vasitva is necessary. If people work haphazardly and do not follow ever more progressive path, they cannot be expected to establish a state of welfare for all. So if you really want to help people, you will have to
inspire and influence them in a positive way, and then direct them along the right path to their goal.
7) Prakamya means the ability to accomplish whatever one desires, to translate wish into reality with a view to promote universal welfare, to bring light to the entire universe. Through this occult power, spiritual aspirants acquire the capacity to serve the entire world.
8) Antaryamitva is to enter the ectoplasmic or endoplasmic structure of others and thereby to know their pain and pleasures, their hopes,
aspirations and longings and to guide them properly. It is somewhat like transmigration of the soul. Regarding this occult power, spiritual cult alone will not suffice. The Universe does not lend this power to sadhakas readily because if they do not possess universal love, it can be abused for personal gains. This power makes the mind so subtle that it can enter the intra- and inter-ectoplasmic mind stuff of every individual as well as the collective human society.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
What are the Occult Powers?
1) Anima means reducing one's psychic existence into a small point, transforming it into a minimum entity. One may understand anything and everything by entering into each and every physical particle and becoming one with the different waves of expressions and emanations, by dancing with the waves of objects and ideas.
2) Mahima means vastness. The mind can expand to become vast. Its radius may encompass the entire universe and so we acquire ideas about many different subjects without reading books. In this way, too, we may feel our oneness with the varied entities of this
universe -- unity in variety, unity in diversity. By associating our benevolent thoughts with each and every entity, we will contribute to universal progress and prosperity.
3) Laghima makes the mind light, free from the bondage of so many liabilities. This carefree mind, freed from so many fetters and bondages, can understand and think clearly. So by dint of this occult power, one may understand any idea, subtle or crude, abstract or concrete. Unless you understand how much pain and sorrow is accumulated in other's minds, how many tears well up in their eyes, you cannot completely alleviate their sorrows and sufferings. Through laghima, your own mind becomes unburdened so you can clearly appreciate the minds of others.
4) Prapti means helping oneself and helping the souls of so many people to acquire and be benefited by the grace of the Universe.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
I made notes and responded to most of the concerns I read from the previous messages. Once I attempted to post the responses a message came mentioning the limited number of characters for a post so I've sectioned out the response into parts.
Come up with any variation of an occult power, a siddhi, you'll find they are subsets of these eight siddhis listed below.
The methods of making these skills more ubiquitous in personal life are available within Tantrika practices, Universal Love being imperative to succeed.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
It is said many yogis, from all forms of shamanism, claim there is a "god". Review for a moment the consistent continuities of the Universe. Look towards compounds, molecules, atoms, subatomic forms, then look more broadly to the skies with its symphony of planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies, nebulae and beyond. The continuities match, right? Now, what about cellular lives? Jillions of cells exist on this planet as independent organisms, yet there are also cells in your body, working together, choreographing their actions in cooperation, and doing so with a continuity so symphonic that such endeavors generate a synergy giving expression, subtler expression on a far grander scale, to beings with a singular concept of self, such as you. Now doesn't this portend, when we use empirical evidence, that such may be true on a grander scale than ourselves? If we can conceive of the Universe, then it is within us, hologramatically, and by encompassing it wholly, we are going beyond the material limits of our corporal existence. In much the same way that the symphony of you operates as it does, so does the Universe, and certainly there is a centricity of which the Universe is manifest as well, the Chief Operating Officer of its realm. There are terms in Sanskrit for these concerns, I'll not use them for now.
The "old guard" must, by force of circumstance, be ever morphed through the progressive momentum into subtler realms of being. The concern is not a tribalism of haute' inertia worshippers nor is it a matter of ageism, it is a matter of maximum utilization and rational distribution of the mundane, supramundane, physical, metaphysical and spiritual potentialities of the Universe, accessed and made manifest by the avant guard of human evolution, for all these matters of matter and skills of psyche are already available within the Universe, and are a natural part of being human, properly done in an ethical manner facilitating maximum utilization and rational distribution of all such resources in a progressive manner.
The vast majority of siddhis performable by humans are contained within, are operative within the fifth dimension. The process for accessing these skills are within Tantrika practice and come naturally to people, including "primitives" who are also born human and with their uncomplicated lives are more attentive to contemplating nature and the Universe, giving them ready access to such skills unfettered by fussy imperialistic dogmas of predatory religions and avaricious stupors borne of consumptionistic dementias.
While doubt may seem like one of several emotions, it can also be a mechanical device by which we circumambulate around a notion with both detachment and discrimination anchored in truthfulness. Neither cynicism nor contrarianism are part of such processes or dispositions, are bereft of such maturities.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
Science is not cynicism, true science is the proper application of doubt with the magnanimity of acknowledging that what is known, presumably, may not be accurate. As much as Newton's laws of physics may seem to be accurate, in our personal lives, though as our minds reach into subtler realms and wake up to such thresholds of subtleties as the Theory of Relativity and Quantum, each demonstrate the limits of Newton's laws of physics and opportunities within which those laws are not accurate. Taking a dogmatic approach to what is and is not so is NOT scientific and those entrusted with title of scientist who take such dispositions should either engage remedial common sense training or relinquish their title as scientists.
Early in the continuity of manifesting the Universe, the individuation of subjectivity and objectivity occurs, giving rise, in part, to the individuation of unit beings. In the journey toward liberation/enlightenment, these parts regain their unity as the progressing being regains the perspective of the Universe as a singular whole experientially, not as a theory ... objectified. Imagine the Universe, en whole as a singularity, contemplating you. Now, contemplating it as your best friend, engaging it with love, embrace it as your best of bestest friend, meld into it where you forget, as with your best lover, where you end and it begins. From this perspective, experience the Universe as a whole and witness all beings and all things concurrently with this singular perspective inclusive of all.
Siddhis, all siddhis, are achievable. The methods are simple, wholly involves ethics, and come naturally to those residing in their human nature, and part of the reason why mystical skills are readily experienced in childhood, with many stories of siddhis conveyed as being done by children.
MysticalSadhu Sep 21, 2010
I remember reading about the Menninger Institute from grade school through high school via the Weekly Reader. Articles came out often in it about the Institutes's research of Yogi Rama -- who continued to affect my experience of yoga even today -- and occasionally came out in other media as well, even mainstream national broadcast news. This resonated with me immensely and was a meaningful part of what spurred me to pursue yoga as a child.
Studies of sadhus, senseis, or sifus, what they experience and the known siddhis they employ should be designed by such yogis, intuitives who know both the what and how such things occur. With the materialistically bigoted paradigm of contemporary science consciously and subconsciously biased toward disproving, mature adults among intuitives, and researchers in rapport with them, should endeavor to design such research models to further the evolution of humanity.
For example, as a tantrika I know what constitutes time travel and remote experiencing and influencing, both in methodology and in the physics and metaphysics of the Universe. Knowing such, I am aware of elements involved, elements necessary for the creation of the manufacture of devices that will teleport whole ships, faster than the speed of light, to very distant locations or to carry people forward or backward in time. Some theoretical physicists claim only one of either direction in time is achievable, while yogis and other shamans do so with their minds at will.
Sandstone Sep 18, 2010
I'm an NDEr. I'm also a grad student trying to finish off my doctorate as a mainstream scientist. Scientists are all very individual people and they are not all stuck in a particular mindset. Unfortunately, funding does have an impact on what gets studied.
I've had to take some time off from my studies to address some health issues. During my time away from my own research, I've had the opportunity to participate as a test subject in a neuroscience lab. It isn't the typical sort of testing one might expect. I was being tested to see if I could do a pk task while hooked up to an EEG. As it turned out, the first batch of tests last April were pretty promising and it looks like I'll be going back for another batch of tests sometime soon.
I had no idea a year ago that I would be doing this kind of stuff. I was training to be a scientist, not a lab rat. But this is truly a great opportunity for me. It is giving me insights into many things I would never have considered before. It's still a little bit weird to not be the one wearing the lab coat, but maybe every scientist should see what it feels like to be on the other side of the tests.
There are scientists studying things like pk! Who knew??? I sure didn't. But funding is still an issue. The senior scientist I'll be tested by funds his own work. The university gives him a salary as a professor, but he funds the research himself. If he didn't, I don't imagine he could be doing the sort of work he is doing.
frequencytuner Sep 16, 2010
@ Marlene: Just for debates sake I am going argue that it not up to others to convince scientists to open their minds, but the responsibility lies within themselves alone. I will elaborate my previous post for clarity. In order for anybody to accept anything they must first be willing to accept it. I relate this back to the contrast between love and fear and order and chaos. Fear is rejection, similar to a negatively charged ion. Love is acceptance, a positive, attractive charge. Now the other pair, Order is knowing, control and structure, an attractive charge. Chaos is not knowing, having no control and without form or structure, essentially a negative charge. Now, with this in mind, consider the dogmatic - ordered (known, controlled and structured) - body of traditional science. In order to maintain the state of order, science "knows" that it must remain in a static state - unchanging. What we are presenting to the traditional body of science is - essentially - chaos (they do not know, cannot control and have no way to structure it). Now we see the point at which Science makes it's decision. The decision is based on either Love or Fear. If science chooses love, it will accept the chaos. If it chooses fear, it will reject the chaos. The primary point is this: science chooses based on the entity's present state of consciousness. Shoving ideas that they reject down their throats makes them reject it more, the same as one magnet repels another. For Science to accept the ideas it's collective consciousness must make a polarity shift. This cannot be done from outside the entity because it happens internally. When science is ready, it will shift.
duquem Sep 16, 2010
Marlene, I would argue that what drives most scientists is curiosity and the desire to understand. I agree with you that there are many close minded and arrogant scientists out there, but no more then there are in other fields...and referring to all scientists as fear and ego driven does not help establish a dialogue or encourage them to investigate non-traditional areas of research. And yes, it is up to "others" to convince them of their findings. One does not establish scientific "truths" based on faith alone. I am however encouraged and interested in the research that IONS is doing and will be following their work.
Marlene Sep 16, 2010
@ Duquem: With all my respect, your answer proofs the self limiting beliefs of many mainstream scientists. Most only accept their own methods and truths described by their colleagues. It is up to others to convince them. With a bit of luck, they believe people have some abilities depending on a number of factors like personal experience.
Wouldn't science be more profitable for ALL when driving by and open mind and curiosity instead of fear and arrogance?
frequencytuner Sep 15, 2010
There is an old saying: "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". There is another old saying: "When the student is ready the teacher will appear".
This is the reason - in my personal opinion - that the mainstream has not embraced the higher potential and capabilities of the human organism.
duquem Sep 09, 2010
A few more thoughts...One of the best ways to bridge this disconnect between "mainstream" science and paranormal researchers for lack of a better word, is for the the paranormal researchers to search out and engage well established but retired or independently funded mainstream researchers who tend to think outside the box. (Yes, they do exist!) 1. They will be less likely to worry about the opinion of their peers or fear losing funding after endorsing research outside the "mainstream". 2. The endorsement of the findings, or monitoring of the research by a well known established "mainstream" name will give the research more "weight" by mainstream scientists. (This is true in any field of science). 3. A mainstream "cowboy" scientist who has less to lose and less to fear may also be able to contribute knowledge about other scientific/ biomedical techniques that could allow the accumulation of more "hard" data that would be more difficult to refute. In the end, once such data could be published in a journal that is respected across different disciplines other scientists may follow suit and not be as skeptical about such research.
duquem Sep 09, 2010
I am a mainstream scientist. Scientists will believe that things are "true" or likely to be "true" after a question (i.e. do yogis have remarkable abilities?) has been tested rigorously, peer reviewed and published in a main stream journal. If they read in some kind of newspaper, book, or online publication that it has been shown by medical scientists that a yogi showed this amazing ability they will not automatically believe it. They need independent repeated experiments and peer review by people not involved in the experiments (maybe even by a skeptic?). If there are some resources out there where such data is published I would be very interested in learning about them.
Even though I am a scientist I do believe people are capable of abilities beyond what the "mainstream" public believes. But this belief is based more on personal experience rather than from reading about other people's experiences. It is my hope that there will be an increase in dialogue between "mainstream" scientists and other researchers working on some of the extraordinary abilities some individuals have to advance our knowledge and acceptance of many of what I believe are innate skills that could benefit mankind if used appropriately.
alexjohn Sep 09, 2010
I ain't any specialist in such things and I joined this site hoping that someone would really help me.... However this is what I feel after 19 years of life.., all that I know is that there's a special part of consciousness which is hidden from us-the subconsciousness and the abilities of this hidden region is unthinkable as no one is able to identify it and since I'm an Indian and based on the stories and myths I have heard the yogic practitioners somehow could unravel the abilities of their subconsciousness which they did by long term meditation or so.. Very well this is my STUPID thought... And me got no degrees in psychology or so..
MaAnna Sep 08, 2010
I've been particularly impressed with the annual Mind and Life panel discussions the Dalai Lama hosts where lamas, neuroscientists, and psychologists dialogue to open discovery of a fuller understanding of the mind, the brain, and consciousness. The series has been ongoing for several years and audio recordings are freely available at http://www.dalailama.com/webcasts/category/3 While there, you'll also find links to several webcasts and books of successful collaboration between Buddhist practitioners and science.
There have been so many amazing advancements over the last decade in imaging technology and neuroscience. And their findings are helping to point back to ancient practices and validating a lot of what advanced intuitives have been declaring for eons. So, I'm not so sure that mainstream physical science is continuing the practice of dismissing the findings and teachings of noetic science so much anymore.
Romero Sep 05, 2010
Aren't machines of loving grace what Apple is currently building ;). I believe we're getting there. Within the last 20 years advances in telecommunications have produced many changes in society. One of them is more open discussions of noetic experiences. Science and spirituality are converging because each discipline in its own way wants to reach the truth and to do that sometimes you have to change your point of view or become stagnant. But it is easier to accomodate your reality to your point of view than to accomodate your point of view to your reality. Some people do that just because it is path of least resistance.
I'm 39 years old and within my time have have seen paradigm shifts in important areas of my life. So I'm hopeful that I will continue to see these evolving shifts within our lifetime. With the yogi issue the problem is not one of skepticism. Skepticism is actually a healthy reaction to any new information. It helps you differentiate belief from reality, although in some areas reality is belief. The problem with the issue of yogis is the outright denial and demagogery from some in the scientific community. Some of it is very self serving. Some of it is simply contrarian. And some of it is not knowing the issue well enough. Every theory at some point was a radical idea and later became accepted as its success became apparent. Many cancer centers incorporate meditation and visualization within their therapeutic frameworks. But so far the evidence points that although these methods improve quality of life they don't improve survivability. As science and spirituality continue to converge I believe a balance will be reached and we will all benefit from the best of both worlds.
rigross Sep 03, 2010
Bravo Verderrouble! May we clone you a few hundred times? Seriously, the gap between Science and Spirit seems to be narrowing. It is incumbent on all who would bring the World Wisdom Culture to speak their truths to all who will listen. Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions suggests, if memory serves, that the old guard with their vested interest in their position and prestige must leave the scene in order to make room for the paradigm shift that is to come. Let us hope we do not have to wait another generation for them to shuffle off this mortal coil in order to finally develop Richard Brautigan's "machines of loving grace" that integrate physics and poetry.
Romero Aug 31, 2010
I think we need something more marketable than "Enbracing the Yogi." Nice motto though.
I think it would be a fantastic idea to do more functional brain imaging. Maybe we will need full body imaging, as it is conceivable that consciousness phenomena of this sort ultimately may act directly on the site and bypass the brain altogether at times.
Funding for these endeavors will be hard to find for the foreseeable future, just as it is difficult to find funding for research into psychotherapy compared to pharmacological solutions. I think quantum mechanic research might lead the way here as it becomes more evident the role that the observer has in their experiments. It is interesting that the medical sciences (which arguably could have the more immediate benefits from research in this field) tend to dismiss and even see consciousness effects as a nuisance relegating them to the placebo effect. Makes me wish the placebo effect was better studied.
VeronicaOGrady Aug 30, 2010
Science is growing up out of the dark ages influenced by the dogmas that guided so many cultures of the past. Yogi's with these 'super-human' abilities were also so far removed from normal society that only now are we 'embracing the yogi' within us. Worlds, octaves/dimensions are merging and it's exciting. I've contacted many neuro-scientists and brain researchers over the years about wanting to experiment with an EEG brain cap to map out specific brain functions as i do healing sessions and speak of specific work being done while it is happening. Having both my self and the person being worked with wearing these brain caps to monitor the deeper specific changes would be a step towards bridging the unseen/unknown abilities we have to completely change physical reality using disciplined and specific consciousness techniques. Adding a fMRI would even be better!
I've been told that's a 'future science' and I'd have to get funding to be able to do that. Understandable indeed and that funding for such projects is rare at this point. Changing brain frequencies to bring about total healings is not profitable to big companies either. The politics play into it as well but at this point, we're almost at the 100th monkey where enough scientists & natural born healers will feel and be financially supported enough to go out on such a limb into bridging this whole new paradigm.
This feels like a coming home here. Thank you for the space to air some of these topics. I've been doing healing work since i was born and have not fit in with most mainstream philosophies because i could see so much more of 'reality' than most. My biggest dream is to have someone map out what happens in these sessions so that real, predictable, scientifically proven results can be seen. IONS is the only group i've encountered that seems open to these possiblities.
"Embracing the Yogi" could be a new mantra for science! Imagine that? ;~)
Romero Aug 28, 2010
Don't rule out science yet. Many in the scientific community are aware of these phenomena and there is interest. IONS is a testament to that. Many of the things we accept as mainstream science today were fringe ideas a few decades ago. Just look at astronomy and how long it took for concepts like the sun to be at the center of our solar to become mainstream ideasa.
There question posed is a complex one that involves scientific dogma, religioius dogma, social trends, and political and economic issues. Scientific dogma implies an established model and anything that diverges from current thinking will be met by extreme skepticism until younger minds with fresh ideas include them in their new dogma. Human sciences have a tendencyto work like a pendulum, swinging one way to then shift in the other direction. For example the use of psychotherapy and medication use for the treatment of depression comes to mind, with a recent analysis of the STAR-D data recently concluding that the dogma of anti-depressant use should be revised as the meta-analysis revealed the medicines in the end are no better than placebo. However it will be a while before a change in the treatment guidelines of depression indorporate these new findings.
Religion is also a factor here, as many in the various metaphysical communities are reluctant to have their own dogma under scrutiny for fear of their beliefs being invalidated. Researches are also frecuently religious and there may also be a reluctance to explore issues that would clash with their current beliefs.
Also economics and politics play their role on the issue. Policy makers are reluctance to go outside the mainstream for fear it may erose their support base. Economic interests like pharmaceutical companies have little interest in researching technologies which they can't patent for the benefit of their shareholders.
This is a complex issue which is an interesting area of study in itself.
lighttiger Aug 27, 2010
If these Yogic experiences are accepted as true, what about the view of the universe these Yogis describe? These views include existence after death, a multi-dimensional universe (i.e., heavens and hells), and ultimately the existence of God. This moves what many consider purely unverifiable beliefs into something that can at least be experienced, if not potentially proven, by following the practices of these Yogis.
Today's view of the universe from physics--string theory--defines an 11 dimension universe. We only seem to experience four dimensions. Does the Yogic universe lie in these extra dimensions? Certainly there is no clear path today, but it is intriguing. And many famous physicists have been drawn to Eastern philosophy and spirituality. They seem to be comfortable with both scientific rigor and philosophical investigation.
puresilence Aug 27, 2010
I guess there are lot many things and happening every second. I have so far read good amount of books, but none of the books tell how to achieve these powers. I have read the Key in everybody to connect to the ultimate resource is Kundali, but that require so much hard-work that it seems it is not my cup of tea at this moment. But yes even Vivekananda said- unless you don't feel something on yourself, none is true. If you have felt it, that means that is truth. But one thing is sure, there are powers and there is no coincidence. In last 10 years technology has grown at exponential rate, and for some reason people are also skeptical that earth is not going to survive for long. Now the technology and survival of earth is somehow linked- In Past (this is my theory) people knew their powers and that was obvious to them, so they were sync with the earth. Now they are searching for powers outside of them, hence creating somewhat unhealthy environment on earth.
What I am trying to say- we can assume our self as analogical similar to earth, when earth (being completely insignificant in this Universe as very tiny ball nowhere to be noticed keeping in mind universe size) has everything within it- all kind of magical things and astronomical energies, why we as human being are looking these powers outside of us- keeping belief on analogy. We have not witnessed that energy source within. Still a theory though as I am not sure about Kundali.
Verderouble Aug 26, 2010
I am a photobiologist and have been studying the effects of light on living systems for over 30 years. For a great many scientists their science is the measure of truth. For a few, and all the great ones, truth is the measure of science. The first is like a self-blinded "man" with a stick, and if he cannot hit it then it doesn't exist. Those for whom science serves the truth have the same stick, but they can see where to usefully put it. The element that it is not on the Periodic Table is Creativity. This is a non-predictable element constituent of a that "will" which distinguishes the life process from the death process, the organism from the mechanism. It is operative now, in an ever emergent world. "Matter" means Mother, and so She is. The resistance of the blind men is based on a necessary refusal of the fact that our "scientific objectivity" is an intellectual device and discipline of separation from the object of attention, and this attention is effective, it acts, it does something. To accept this fact, to embrace and celebrate its implications is not a simple reform, it really is a revolution.
jimdun9241 Aug 25, 2010
Gloria, I ordered your book yesterday after our exchange of emails about zero point energy. I read summaries of your book by using google and going to amazon. What you have written about is something that is of great interest to me. I have read other books that discuss these issues, like "Punk Science", and "Journey to Awareness and Beyond", which was written by my friend, Dr. Liana Mattulich. I am eagerly awaiting the chance to read your book.
asinha1993 Aug 24, 2010
I am from a traditional hindu background and since childhood I have heard many stories about the amazing powers of many yogies told to us by our grandparents....but I never really believed them....but after reading about noetic science I have started to believe that some of the stories may be in fact true....i will give an example about 2 siddha yogies..Shri RamKrishna (swami Vivekananda's Guru) and Shri Bamakhapa or Bamdev .....Once Bamakhapa was sitting with his disciples in his ashram when he suddenly closed his eyes for some moment and went into a meditative stage.....After some time when he opened his eyes. One of his companion asked what was the matter......Bamdev replied"You people keep an eye on my body.I am going some where."and with that he again closed his eyes and once again went into a deep meditative stage........After several hours he once again opened his eyes...His companions asked"Baba (father) where did u go?" Bamdev replied"Today is a very sad bay.One of the greatest siddha purush (siddha person) ,Shri RamKrishna ,died today.I had gone to dakshineshwar to bid him farewell."
Later it was found that ramkrishna had died at the the exact moment and in the exact way Bamdev had described to his disciples.
NOTE:- Dakshineshwar Temple is situated near Calcutta and bamdev's ashram is situated in Tarapith which is approx. 225km from Calcutta.
It is said that Bamdev, being a siddha yogi,could take out his soul from his body at his will.It is the same thing that is mentioned in the LOST SYMBOL as the out of body experience.i don't know if it is true but then the experiment that docron describes seems impossible as well but it is seen....
Jim Centi Aug 23, 2010
Congratulations on publishing your book. That is something that I have failed to accomplish.
I haven't read your book, but am motivated to respond to your comments which may resonate with your book.
You state that the reason science doesn't take spiritual phenomena seriously is because it's left out of the textbooks –
My comment prior to yours should have considered that. The reason that spiritual phenomena is left out of textbooks is because textbooks reflect the reality paradigm of the dominant culture. The dominant reality paradigm of our culture is supported by the paradigm that governs traditional science [Scientific Materialism].
Scientific materialism has dominated traditional science for over three hundred years. Although infrequently published, scientific materialism considers that beliefs in spirituality reflect a mental deficiency. That claim seems to be diminishing in frequency, as the science of IONS is beginning to penetrate the consensus reality.
Your comment responsive to scientists treating their discipline [paradigm] as religion is right on. It resonates with my previous post which reflects that devotees of scientific materialism [traditional scientists] express the dogmatism of religious fundamentalism, not the open mindedness required of true science. [Not my exact words, but the paraphrasing seems to convey more sentiment.]
If my comments seem overly aggressive, I hope you recognize that they are not directed at you.
I have found comfort in occasionally abandoning the compassion and serenity inherent to my spiritual nature and to express aggression [only when there is opportunity to confront the irrational dogmatism of scientific materialism.]
Best wishes, nm
GloriaPrema Aug 23, 2010
The reason science doesn't take spiritual phenomena seriously is because it's left out of the textbooks - many scientists don't look outside their discipline and for some, regrettably, it becomes their religion. But also because it's difficult to reproduce in the lab often, depending on the phenomena involved. Things such as intention (Random Event Generators at Princeton) and occasionally healing modalities can be measured. There have been several interesting prayer studies showing remarkable results. These were double-blind and conducted at a distance (which is intention as well as non-locality).
History shows us that attitudes tend to change very slowly. When a new finding is introduced, almost always it is rejected, eventually considered, then ends up being the norm. This is because people don't want to have to change their way of thinking; it's too much effort, and for some, they're embarassed to realise they didn't know so it protects the ego to dig the heels in and shout vociferously against the new.
That is why it takes time .... even to present overwhelming evidence isn't enough for many.... they simply won't look. Scientists do this as much as anyone else.
I have addressed all these issues in my new book 'It's all Light" - The Morphic Resonance of Light, A Unified Theory. It's unified in that it unites the major forces in physics, quantum theory and relativity, spiritual phenomena and human values and I give evidence for everything I've argued in the theory. This is to address the yawning gap between simply talking about spiritual phenomena and providing the actual physics for it, so that eventually mainstream science may begin to look. By the way, the book is accessible to the lay person. I believe a unified theory should not only include spirituality and human values but also be understandable and accessible to everyone. Thanks for reading this far . Gloria
Jim Centi Aug 19, 2010
Mainstream science is dominated by Scientific Materialism which dictates that that the proper study of science is physical reality and the nature of consciousness is not a valid subject for scientific inquiry.
That is the "why" mainstream science refuses to acknowledge consciousness related phenomenon.
In his scholarly work, "The Taboo of Subjectivity", B. Alan Wallace establishes that consciousness is the very nature of human experience and to exclude it from scientific inquiry provides an impoverished understanding of reality.
Wallace's work also establishes that Scientific Materialism is not science, it is an ideology.
[Science is supported by assumptions that can be scientifically tested; in contrast, ideologies are supported solely by assumptions.]
The "how" to overcome mainstream science ignoring consciousness phenomena is by exposing at every opportunity its domination by an ideology.
Also, to be dominated by an ideology is to have faith that the ideology and its assumptions are infallible. This is not science; it is religious dogmatism.
jimdun9241 Aug 15, 2010
I am definitely not mainstream - I do use science (quantum physics) in my thinking.
I have studied metaphysics for 50 years. I am a healer and a caregiver to seniors.
TrueInsights Aug 14, 2010
Hmm, interesting and predictable comments. What caused you to ask the question Jim? Mainstream science is built on skepticism, that's why it's called science and mainstream.
jimdun9241 Aug 14, 2010
I am working with a well-known brain researcher who has taught me to raise the temperature of my hands 20 degrees during meditation, and to produce gamma brain waves, which is what gurus produce.
I am also working with a company whose products have produced "miracles" for hundreds of people. Their products use zero point energy.
Amega will be a billion dollar company in a year, just from people helping people and sharing the wealth. They have created a foundation to heal the world. Their products give you what everybody wants - relief from pain, promote healing, plenty of energy and a good nites sleep, etc. That is why Amega people say, I love my life! The products are created by a scientific discovery called Zero Point Energy.
Here is a link to a short video about Zero Point Energy.
Here is a link to a video describing Zero Point Energy, and the products.
Here is a link to a video of a demonstration of the products.
Dean Radin, PhD Aug 13, 2010
Here are two good places to start:
Braud, W. (2008). Patanjali Yoga and siddhis: Their relevance to parapsychological theory and research. In K. R. Rao, A. C. Paranjpe, & A. K. Dalal (Eds.), Handbook of Indian psychology (pp. 217-243). New Delhi, India: Cambridge University Press (India)/Foundation Books.
You can download this paper here: http://www.inclusivepsychology.com/uploads/PatanjaliYogaAndSiddhis.pdf
Braud, W. (2010). Patanjali Yoga Sutras and parapsychological research: Exploring matches and mismatches. In K. R. Rao (Ed.), Yoga and parapsychology: Empirical research and theoretical studies (pp. 241-260). Delhi, India: Motilal Barnarsidass.
This can be downloaded here: http://www.inclusivepsychology.com/uploads/Braud_Yoga_Psi_Matches_Mismatches2010.pdf
This book is also an excellent resource:
K. R. Rao (Ed.), Yoga and parapsychology. Delhi, India: Motilal Barnarsidass.
Ayseby Aug 13, 2010
To my humble opinion the answer is simple and called "Taboo", as Dean Radin puts it. With the fear of being marginalized most of the main stream scientists prefer to stay within known territory, under generally accepted norms. But, what I wonder most is the resources that explore these abilities of the yogis. Can anyone point some direction so that I can learn some details? Thank you.
Marlene Aug 13, 2010
Modern science isn't always an improvement. If they can't explain it, it doesn't exist. If they didn't test it, it is not valid. Not to mention the limiting beliefs. Some scientists attach more value to technology than to human abilities and nature. As if a gadget is more thrilling and valid than what we are and have.
docron Aug 12, 2010
As an undergraduate at Missouri Western State University, the Psychology Club had a field trip to the Menninger Clinic to learn about their research into biofeedback and it's possibilities. The director related the ancedotal story of a Yogi they were studying who was able to stay in their air-tight chamber with NO exchange of CO2 for O2! Even after several hours, Dr. Tart related that this remained constant, and at the end of the experiment, the make up of the air in the chamber was the same as it was when he started. The same kind of experiment was done with a Yogi in a small glass box! Again, there was no change in the chemical makeup of the air!
Dr Ron Hestand
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