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Bill Frezza, Contributor
I chronicle the decline and fall of entitlement democracy
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How Greece conned its way into the European Union while hard working Turkey was left begging is a testament to the astute diplomats in Brussels, no doubt consulting their playbook on what dodge they can conjure up next to stick someone else with the bill. Why the E.U. extended credit to a nation whose governments have been in a chronic state of default since the country gained independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1832 is a fitting subject for a News of the World expose. Perhaps they were being advised by Fannie Mae.
So despite the frantic meetings, the tragicomedy nears its final act. It's time for the global financial industry to pull up stakes and go home before more innocent bank employees get immolated. If you don't want the real contagion to spread, that is the disease of believing you can perpetually consume more than you produce, leave Greece to the Greeks and let the bankers take their lumps.
As difficult as it is for a Greek-American like myself to admit, resting on 2,000 year old laurels is a stale act. While few cultures can proudly look back on as many achievements in the arts, drama, athletics, philosophy, rhetoric, and architecture that were the glory of Greece, it's time for modern Greeks to take a good hard look at themselves. What have they done for the world lately? More importantly, what are they prepared to do to help themselves? If they can't face that question then it's time to sing the Internationale.
I too am a Greek American, and I have heard the same argument you pose from many other Greek Americans. It's too simplistic, in my opinion.
Most Greeks work hard, most Greeks are not communists, and most Greeks are nothing like the stereotype you portray.
Furthermore, the current crisis is not just a Greek crisis, but a global financial crisis. I fail to see that many metrics where Greece differs all that much from the US.
As for the EU, it is a failed experiment. If this was truly a uniquely Greek crisis, then why the concurrent crises in Portugal, Ireland, soon Italy and Spain? There's more to it. Something else is going on.
And I would like for once to see the mainstream media portray German bankers as reckless instead of dishing out the lazy Mediterranean stereotype. Was it not the German banks that were the most leveraged banks in the world? Didn't European banks get the lion's share of Federal Reserve assistance – bailouts? Aren't these EU bailouts really Banker bailouts?
You know why Turkey is doing well? It didn't join the EU. It devalued the Turkish Lira – remember its high inflation the last ten years? Can Greece do the same?
Greece effectively has the Deutsche Mark, whereas the US is devaluing Drachma style.
Germany caused a bubble in the periphery nations in the early 2000s. Germany instituted mercantilist policies – so the goal was, the periphery purchased German goods, and paid German banks interest on loans. Not unlike the US-China relationship. Such systems last until they don't. And then it gets ugly.
For more nuanced info on the EU crisis, I suggest this:
Personally, I'm tired of the Greek stereotypes, and prefer more thorough analysis that entails a better understanding of the operational realities of a common currency area that lacks fiscal union… but I understand, audiences prefer simplistic stereotypes to detailed analysis that requires thought.
I don't know where to begin with your ignorant diatribe. Until the end where you claim to be of Greek decent I was ready to label you a racist. Hard working Turks vs. lazy Greeks? Have you ever been there or more importantly lived there for any extended period? There are no doubt real problems in Greece. A bloated, corrupt government and public sector and unbalanced power for the unions but the wholesale dismissal of a people as lazy is ridiculous. Try cracking open a few books on Greece's recent history – not about Aristotle and Themistocles but about men like Venizelos. Try reading "Twice a Stranger" by Colin Wells or David Brewer's "Greece, the Hidden Centuries" and then remember that Greece, just 15 or so years removed from an absolute humanitarian catastrophe (the population exchange begun in 1923) was able to repel Mussolini's Facist army and even liberate Albania from the facists (apparently, the skirts made them invincible to Italians). Following that war (WWII), there was a civil war and a junta regime. The modern Greek state has only been in existence since 1974. They have almost no natural resources of value – this is nothing new; since ancient times the Greeks had to colonize other areas because there weren't enough resources for the growing population. Greeks flourish wherever they go. Their problem is that they do a poor job of leading themselves. They do very well from within someone else's constructs (see Roman Empire turning into Byzantine Empire and lasting twice as long; also, see the real reasons for Ataturk's revolution against the Ottoman Empire – the Greeks dominated the merchant class and trade).
Turkey left begging? Have you looked at their record of human rights? Ask the Armenians and the Kurds how well they are treated by the hard working Turks. The 1923 Lausanne Treaty called for Orthodox Christians to be allowed to live in Constantinople and Muslims to live in Thrace. Those 800,000 Muslims are still in Thrace but there are only 5,000 Orthodox Christians in Turkey, which is baffling because the poor, hard working Turks are such upstanding citizens of the world and treat them so well.
You clearly have no real understanding of what is happening in that part of the world and have no business spouting off a baseless and ignorant (and I mean that in the true definition of the word – you don't know or understand) opinion. It's a mess over there. The unions need their power to be greatly reduced. The government needs to be slashed in size and scope. Business needs to be fostered by clearing up the Byzantine red tape that must be cleared and there must be transparency and integrity in the tax system and administration of it. Put that in place and the hard working people over there (my father was born there. I have lived there) will flourish as they always have. Oh, as an aside, you mention Greece constantly being a credit problem. Maybe you will recall (or learn for the first time) that the three largest bankruptcies in the last 100 years in Europe have all come from Germany and they were all large and devastating to the world economy.
this is just a beautifully laid out, well-documented rebuttal to baseless and ignorant "expertise"…
That's really quite nice of you, an American, to give the Greek people a government of their choosing. I guess we've come a long way from the CIA supported junta of 1967 when Phillips Talbot, the US ambassador in Athens, disapproved of the military coup, complaining that it represented "A rape of democracy", to which Jack Maury, the CIA chief of station in Athens, answered, "How can you rape a whore?"
The CIA never supported the Junta. While being against the Communists it never gave any meaningful support to the Junta.
I just read that the Greek Crisis is part of the global financial crisis. Such a generalization seems like an attempt to escape the unique problems that belong to Greece alone. Gusk talked about everything but what Greece and Greeks did to themselves.
Greek debt is well over 12% of GDP. The Stability & Growth Pact calls for a 3% limit. The Netherlands exceeded this limit in 1999 and undertook immediate policy measures to address the problem. The Greek government has only been within the debt limit one year in the last ten.
Gusk also ignores the fact that the Greek government admits it lied about its debt throughout its application period to the euro zone. An honest Greece wouldn't be a euro zone member today. How does anyone but Greece bear responsibility for the lies and euro zone membership? Greece again lied about its deficit and deficit projections in 2008 & 2009.
Greece lied because they wanted lower interest rates euro zone members received. Turkey didn't lie to join the euro zone. Greece did. Lower interest rates saves Greece in the neighborhood of $100 billion, and it all was the result of Greek lies about their finances.
The Greek credit rating is lower than Portugal, Italy, Ireland, or Spain. Greek is not an equal among victims as Gusk described. Why? Because Greece not only lied to gain membership to the euro zone in order to save money on interest rates the Greeks wasted all of those savings. Greece did not get its financial house in order when it had the opportunity. Who does Gusk blame for that?
Here are some articles Gusk needs to read.
It is a typical, empty ploy to call someone a racist when you don't have a valid argument to counter with. What you hope is to win the argument by causing the author to shut-up and walk away. You lose.
Stereotyping one race, creed, or ethnicity is racism. We generally tolerate it when it is done from within (as the author claims to be of Greek decent). If you read my response you will see that I in fact did not call him a racist but instead questioned his depth of knowledge and insight into Greece, the Greek people and their issues right now. I think I actually did lay out an argument and did not hope to "win the argument by causing the author to shut-up and walk away". The article was deeply offensive to me. I am not someone who just reads headlines or sees the 10 seconds of video that CNN plays and then thinks he knows enough to form an opinion on what is happening in Greece. I have a degree in economics and taxation. I am a Greek American. I lived in Greece for many years. I have read more books than I can count on Greek history, both modern and ancient and I am knowledgeable about the subject on which I am speaking. I own property over there and pay taxes and deal with the ridiculous bureaucratic hazards in Greece. The author of this blog post has shown blatant ignorance in some of the things he wrote. Ignorance in the true sense of the word as I wrote above. He clearly doesn't know what he is talking about and has some kind of self-hating bent because he is Greek and is embarrassed by the press coverage over there or something like that.
Clearly, however, I did not just scream "racist" and walk away. /end of my two cents.
@ scootermclean, actually except for Luxembourg, none of the countries who joined the Euro meet the debt level requirement of 3% to GDP requirement. So Greece was not the only who lied. Buddy, we can now stop with that ridiculous argument.
@ scootermclean
I will not absolve Greece of gross inefficient bureaucracy and corruption. But it takes two to tango. There have been many reported incidences of foreign countries bribing Greek politicians.
As for Greece being a mere consumer – Remember the first bailout? Didn't it include Greece buying frigates and other military hardware from France and Germany? Some things never change.
Read the articles I posted. The macro issue, the global financial crisis I speak of is due to fiat currency. Unlike the prior gold standard, fiat money is easily expandable and extreme trade imbalances develop. That's what we're seeing here.
If Greece never joined the Euro, they would have had a smaller crisis 10 years ago that would have corrected their productivity issues. Joining the Euro allowed Greece's politicians to borrow (just like any politician) and to create the circumstances for a greater collapse down the road. The cheap Euro also created a bubble of malinvestments – similar to Greenspan's stewardship of the US dollar.
So Greece is not unique in this. Case in point: the US.
It is a global fiat collapse we are going through. It will end with a reversion to the gold standard as the system, burdened by credit growth, collapses.
And I view all credit as equal. Greece has a tremendous gov't debt – but per capita, its provate sector debt is less than Germany's as well as many other nations. Eventually, as the crisis continues, private sector debt will collapse, affecting banks, which in turn affects government balance sheets as the private sector debt migrates to the public balance sheet. Ireland in an example of this.
And so Greece is the first to have this crisis because most of its total debt is in the public sector and has nowhere else to go (but the ECB).
For example, whereas Greece's mortgage loans to gdp is around 30%, many other countries in Europe are near 100%. So what's the difference? Just a question of time.
This article is both unfair and uninformed (the two are not coincidental). Greece has an un-reformed, Stalinist Communist Party which, along with the other extreme leftist party (SYRIZA), consists of anywhere from 7 to 10 % of the electorate. The Greek Communist Party, a vestige of the Greek Civil war, is the last dinosaur of its type in the world. True to form, it is very organized, very destructive and very loud. Its rantings are naturally what seduces and gets the attention of the foreign press. Of course, The Party (KKE) is against "Imperialism", "Capitalism" and for a "government of the working people" It is foolish to confuse it's anti-market, anti-American rantings with the opinions of the Greek people. The KKE's executive has already said that the Party does not recognize the Greek Constitution, and that it wants Greece's exit from NATO, from the euro and even from the EU itself. Though it does not have many seats in Parliament, it controls a union (PAME) of thugs who have shown there ability to shut down the country with their brutal strikes. The Greek Communists are violently against ANY change, no matter how small, that they cannot control. Much more than any conceivable foreign enemy, the biggest threat to stability and progress in Greece today are the Greek Communists and SYRIZA their fellow travelers who have often stooped to political violence. They are not Greece and they are not the Greek people.
mr Bill Fezza, wouldn't it be better to check your facts before you print what you want to appear as a serious article? Who knows why the fact that some great grandfather of yours came from a poor area of the country which suffered from the left wing forces during the civil war makes you think that you know enough about Greece and the EU to share your opinion with the world is beyond me. The inconsistencies and plain errors in your article are so many that it makes me wonder what you were thinking…
arhedia (I know what it means) above, has written a rarely-understood fact about the euro. Luxembourg and Ireland were the only two countries that qualified to join the euro under established criteria. Germany itself did not qualify and Theo Weigel, Finance Minister at the time, had to juggle the books and include Germany's gold reserves as part of the country's income for the year in order to bring Germany's deficit to acceptable levels. Ultimately, joining the euro was a political, not an economic, decision and no country that wanted to join was excluded.
Facts, however, are boring, whereas BS and nonsense always excite the hate-mongers and the know-nothings. Pity.
I have to admit that while more than Greece's deserved share of inaccurate, discriminatory and belittling articles have been published over the past few months, yours is the first one to really offend me enough to join Forbes.com in order to post my comment. Not only are your personal misguided understandings of Greece's history and more importantly the EU's economic history of the last 10 years irrationally portrayed as fact, the conclusion of communism as the next logical step does not even follow. The situation in Greece continues to deeply sadden myself as a Greek, however it is slightly comforting to see that in the comment section everyone strives to correct the falsehoods that you are immorally spreading rather than agree with you. The most shocking part of your post is the part about you being a Greek-American, and cannot for the life of me understand why you would write off your country and its people, something I assume you have done because even an idiot who knew nothing of Greece before it started making headlines could have gathered more accurate information by reading 3 different sources. On the same note I don't either understand how you hold a job as a "journalist"; I use quotations because the word seems to be losing its meaning when people like yourself are allowed to be in a position that can affect a person's understanding of current affairs, when again, you clearly know nothing about the subject. The sheer level of condescension instead of an argument that would logically lead you to feel the way you do is why you are being attacked and labeled a racist. Is there a term for a racist who discriminates his own? Bill, I do wish that you keep this brilliant work up in the hopes that one day your employers will have had enough and you can enjoy the feeling of being unemployed like 20% of Greeks today (almost 40% among people under 30). These are people who never lived beyond their means, who did not evade their taxes, are not corrupt and are for the most part not communists. These are the people who are truly suffering, not your precious German tax-payer.
Mr. Frezza,
Words are the writers tools, abuse them and they do not work. You toss about the word "communism" to mean just about anything that you do not like. It creates a meaningless blog full.
Further, how did Greece get into the current mess? Did the "communist" Greek government just wake up one day say we should borrow unimaginable billions of Euro or Dollars to develop our nations so we can pay back the billions in loans already made? No, it was none other than Goldman-Sachs who put together the current Greek loan package (they must be "communists" too, must they not?). They arranged the huge loans from the gigantic "communist" banks of western Europe and they repackaged the them as "debt-swaps" to hedge-funds.
It sounds like good old fashioned Wall Street capitalism to me.
The Greek political elite of all parliament parties are agents of Russia and China, they destroy on purpose Greek economy in order to to sell the country to Russia and China oligarchs and blackmail Europe to accept lending money from China in order to save the "South". Even the demonstrators are financed with state money. For Greek speeking readers check this
Read who the Kgb/fsb controlled regime is giving the Greek gold mines for almost free to Russian friendly state oligarch Bobolas. Check the EU document that no one TV station ever mentioned in the so-called "Cradle of democracy"
The demonstrators are fascists not communists. The modern Communist Party is in practice a fascist party. It is the result of the violent replacement of the party's leadership by the Russian sosialfascists in 1956 and has nothing to do with the party of the resistance in WW2. The only real democratic and left party in Greece that has predicted all of the world political developments is the small party of OAKKE that the regime tries desperately to silence
It's typical of Greek-Americans, such as the writer, to find fault with Greeks and to suggest that they are lazy, and always asking themselves, "[I]s someone else working fewer hours than I am?"
The Greeks are experiencing the most savage austerity measures ever imposed on a developed country. They are guinea pigs for what can be done to bring down the standard of living of workers in Europe and the US in order to make them more competitive with developing nations. Don't you think enough experiments have been done to Greece without now an experiment in communism?
The Greeks would be better off with the drachma and out of the EU. You mention there are other sources for olive oil, etc. Well, is there any country that is indispensable? Aren't there alternative sources for every product? In any case, I have great faith in the Greek people and their ability to establish a strong economy. Unfortunately they have been governed by leaders who do not look out for their best interests.
You mention something very important: faith. You have faith, and that is good, very good. Maybe more Greeks, or all Greeks, need to have faith now, in order to get out of this difficult situation. OK, maybe easier said than done. On the other side: where will strikes and demonstrations ("This is not my debt") lead to (they're probably not being perceived as having faith)?
Regarding the bad government it is surely a difficult subject and a typical case of: "What was there first, the egg or the chicken". I dare to say that a lot of people living in Greece (i.e. Greeks and non-Greeks, sic!) have benefitted greatly in financial terms from those 'bad governments'. After all: the people kept on voting these governments again and again and again… Isn't there a saying that goes like: "Every people gets the government it deserves"? If a people again and again votes the same guys (families), I would assume it is likely that they don't find that government that bad, or at least the benefits outweighed the negative aspects.
Would it be safe to assume that in the current situation, where everything is heading towards hitting rock bottom, stop blaming others and being a good example in having faith is one of the few ways to help Greece march into the right direction?
My first reaction when reading this article was that of some right wing, ignorant racist ranting in a paternalistic manner, about what a country "deserves" as if it were a child being banished to the 'naughty corner' of communism. But upon further reflection, I believe that the author cannot truly believe what he writes and is merely stating an extreme case to invoke discussion. Otherwise, his views belong more in the Goebels PR machine rather than a respectable journal. Greece does require reform on many levels, but is it really much different to many democracies that have binged on free and easy credit from the pre GFC days. Credit and debt that was created by lax US banks lending subprime mortgages to borrowers that could never repay loans. Why should the Greek's suffer for such poor lending practice? Is the national debt odious debt? Does it belong to its people? This can be debated for a long time and it is pleasing to see some of the better informed replies to the article about Greece. However perhaps there is some merit in Greece looking to the East for a solution to its woes and not restrict itself solely to the West, as the US and other western countries have many times shafted Greece in pursuit of their foreign policy self interests. Greece perhaps should balance itself between the East & West as it has done so historically for centuries over time, to avoid being colonised by way of credit. Greece perhaps should seek more foreign investment from China, Russia and the middle east as well as Europe. For example, it should not be forced to buy German submarines or French jets at inflated prices in exchange for loans (bribes?) that will never be repaid. Perhaps let the Chinese establish a military base in the Aegean? If it is good enough for the East Timorise to accept military aid from China, why not Greece? Greece has always been at the gateway of the east and west and has profited and suffered for it throughout history. So securing alliances more broadly to rescue itself from the crisis that by and large, was created by a failed western banking system, perhaps similar to what the US now faces with the need to expand it's debt ceiling may be the solution. Interesting times ahead. But if the Author is serious about his views, he should not be casting stones if the US is itself, in a glass house, or perhaps the US should be sent to the 'naughty corner' of communism too.
The US economy is not like the Greek economy and the debt in the US does not pose a serious threat to the country nor is the US bankrupt. Most of the debt is owned by US-entities anyway. Also, the debt of Greece makes up over 200% of its economic worth, and the economy of Greece isn't important to the globe.
Obviously, Forbes wanted to get the goat and arouse the passions of knowledgeable people by printing this confused, fantastical and provocatively ignorant article about Greece. The site has succeeded in this to some extent, but it's a shame to see a respected magazine stoop to this kind of "journalism."
How bad an article can be. Your views about Greeks are so far fetched that make me wonder if you are really one of Greek descent or have been lately in Greece.
2 things
"They pose no military threat to their neighbors, unless you quake at the sight of soldiers marching around in white skirts."
The comment shows your lack of historic knowledge for a person of Greek Descent. That was exactly what Musolini thought in the second world war and resulted in his ultimate defeat, which had as a result Hitler to delay his plans to invade Russia and Churchil to say the famous "From now on we will say that heroes fight like greeks". From a reported of Forbes and greek descent person i would expect a better historical knowledge.
-"Just toss them out of the European Union, cut off the flow of free Euros, and hand them back the printing plates for their old drachmas. Then stand back for a generation and watch."
That ignorant …so ignorant comment is the reason why we have reached in the position we are right now. The reason that this cannot happen is because German, French AND American Banks have lend so much money to Greece that if we had any Greek default the results would catastrophical to other countries also.If there goverments and the Bankers that are behind those goverments where not so blood-thirsty, maybe we wouldnt have been in this situation today. Nevertheless, its easier to say that Greeks are not hard working rather than point the finger to your own goverment.
p.s. the system to create an account to Forbes is as bad as the article
As a Greek who actually lives in Greece, I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion. Mr Frezza's tongue-in-cheek article is right in pointing out that the dominant discourse in Greek society is left-leaning BS. Most media, intellectuals, even right-wing politicians (!) tend to stand in awe in front of all the classic stereotypical arguments of your average leftist. Visit any Greek university and you would think you are in pre-89 Russia and not in a modern western democracy. However, appearances are deceptive; Mr Frezza is wrong in claiming that most Greeks are sympathetic to the communist parties. They detest them, but unfortunately they have allowed them to claim the intellectual high ground out of some feeling of guilt because of Greece's past (too long to get into here) and, of course, because the commies are so well organized. On the other hand, the crisis has functioned as an incredible jolt to the collective mentality and it is amazing to see how rapidly (perhaps not rapidly enough, but still…) ideas are changing. The VAST MAJORITY of Greeks now realize how untenable the previous model was and are now coming around to accepting privatizations, govmt spending cuts, accountability, private enterprise and initiative and all the other ideas of a well-run, modern, liberal (in the European sense of the word) society. Most Greeks absolutely DETEST the thugs who run the communist-dominated PAME trade union and would be more than happy to see the police, at long last, crack a few heads open, when these brutes violently stop travelers from boarding ferry-boats or forcibly "liberate" toll-booths on the highways; in these situations the police is conspicuously absent, because, were they to intervene, the newspapers and the TV news would go bananas the next day about "police brutality" and the "return of the dictatorship".
At another level, Stefanos Manos, who is my favorite Greek politician, was a pariah for the average Greek until before the crisis but is now talked about by many as the best candidate for Prime Minister in a government of national unity (or at least as Minister of the Economy), since everything he has been saying for the past 20 years now turns out to be right.
The sad truth is, that our current PM (and, unfortunately, the leader of the opposition) do not have hat it takes to implement all the necessary measures to get us out of this crisis despite the fact that Greek society is ready to accept major structural change. Instead, what the government is doing, is cutting income across the board and raising taxes everywhere, sinking the country even deeper into recession, instead of drastically reducing the state's waste by massive lay-offs in the public sector. There are, for example at least 5 (maybe more) state-run TV stations, which is of course ridiculous. The train company owes more than $10 million and is losing millions more; why not shut it down until it can be restructured? Etc, etc. –these are well-known arguments to readers of Forbes I presume. My point is, to summarize, that it is unfair to say that Greeks deserve communism and it is counterproductive given the current climate. Finally, having lived in France for quite a while, I'd say that that country, too, toutes proportions gardées, displays similar characteristics to Greece, including over-the-top deficits, a leftist press, an overbearing state etc… Should they, too, be punished, Mr Frezza?
first of all N.Corea,Cuba(last 20 years) china Benezuala do not have communism and if you believe that you are ignorant or trying to manipulate and show examples of "bad" communists.when did communism started to be a punishment for people.Are you afraid maybe all capitalists journalists, gurus, politicians that people worldwide have understood that capitalism as a way of distributing products and services,as a economical theory in general have FAILED because it was meant to fail enormous debts, poverty, the world of banks.People like you who represente and maintain a decadent system ,specifically FORBES is the cradle of capitalism (every year is suspended the list of most rich people WWWOOOWWWW!!!!)TO SUMMARIZE DO NOT CRITICIZE Greece because is your CHILD WHO was educated from good parents ( USA ,ENGLAND, FRANCE ,GERMANY ) TAUGHT A SPECIFIC WAY OF ACTING (CAPITALISM) AND in combination with the child's unique characteristics ( corrupted political parties) created a bad example. is time for MORALITY .SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH
OK so name a state that has "good" communism?
yea! that;s cool. let's let's do that. in fact, we should give all the people what they want. start with the US. give the us a world withoout the vultures in wall street and see how they far. and while we are on it, let's give the -elected majority no less- republucans their wish, and not raise the debt ceiling, defaulting the biggest economy in the world during the process. I have a slightly better idea: why don't you come to greece, and meet some hard working private sector greeks you so aptly stereotyped. you know, those who chose not to lieave their families behind and fight at the home front. those who pay all the country's debts, with a quarter of the salary the respective american gets for the same job, and then see who is worth saving. you present a loud minority of -TOPS- 30.000 people, as the public will, discarting the fact that the communist party gets less than 10% of popular vote. i suggest a little more research sir…
I completely agree with you that the first thing Greece needs to do is run a primary surplus. On just about every other point in this piece, I am forced to wonder if you're being intentionally inflammatory or just blissfully ignorant.
The fact that about 3.5% of the electorate still vote for a laughably anachronistic Stalinist party does not make them a major force in politics. If you truly think a sizable part of the population espouses similar views to this lunatic (or in most cases, ageing and uneducated) fringe then I suggest you immerse yourself in Greek political discourse a bit further than just reading about a conflict that occurred 70 years ago.
Greece is not some petulant child that needs to be taught manners with harsh discipline. Greece is a country of 11 million people of varying political beliefs, the vast majority of which – much like the citizens of any other nation – have no understanding of fiscal policy, or at least had none until the current crisis started making headlines. What's worse, whole swathes of our political leadership and intelligentsia continue to spout nonsense about foreign conspiracies and insist that we don't have a primary deficit and never did.
Blanket and frankly racist pronouncements such as "every Greek worries, is someone else working fewer hours than I am?" are insulting to the millions of people who are working their socks off trying to make ends meet because of government borrowing that they neither understood nor condoned. Our government lied to us as much as it lied to its creditors and if you, sir, have a podium I would suggest you use it to espouse some workable course of action that may pull these people out of misery rather than snidely suggesting that a whole generation be condemned to poverty and hardship in order to teach them some sort of moral lesson.
Whatever salient point may be hidden in this inflammatory rant is lost as you are unlikely to get any sympathy from the people you are so quick to denigrate as workshy layabouts enamored with Stalinism. They will simply take your insults as they are offered and turn to the populists waiting in the wings to seize mind-share and power by promulgating the exact myths you claim to object to. If you truly want Greeks to learn to live within their means, I suggest you address them with some common courtesy and fact-based argumentation rather than the dismissal and sarcasm that drip through this drivel. At the very least try and get a few basic facts right before so gleefully proclaiming that you know what we "deserve".
Stephanos Piperoglou
London, UK
I am greek citizen so despite what you test I believe I have a more clear view to what you claim.
I read your article and there is one significant factor you didn't mention .What Forbes will gain if Greece collapses, what Goldman Sachs will gain from a possible Greek default and many others that guide Europe, not only Greece, to the edge of the cliff. You didn't mention what Forbes and the others actually want from Greece and you conceal all these consciously just because your only God is money (Of course you didn't reveal the purpose of John Forbes visit in Greece and which are his plans in the future).
Secondly, you claim in general terms that Greeks are lazy etc, and because of that we have come to this point. So I assume you test the same and for the other nations in Europe, am I right? Portugal, Italy, soon Spain….. Or what about the nations in Africa that never managed all these years to come to a better economical position? Are their fault too? And still, I am sure, that you consider yourself objective…and more importantly anti-racist..
But, in order to clarify the picture you have for us I will just give you a hint of my daily routine from 7 years old until today (23 years old) to prove how lazy we are…
From 7 years old I started learning 2 foreign languages, which means 2 hours extra hours of courses and other 2 extra to study. At the age of 11 I went high school and I started 4 extra hours of courses, despite the school, and on average 4 hours per day to study. From the age of 15-17 my extra daily courses where about 4 hours and the study 6-7 hours. Which means that until the midnight I was studying..At university, the same pattern, at my master the same pattern… only with one small detail. I am far overqualified to find a job now considering that there are no jobs now in Greece…
That describes the average Greek and I am pretty sure that many people at my age have worked much lesser at wealthy states all over the world. That's why by the age of 17 we are far familiar with difficult areas of study such integrals, derivatives etc. when at wealthy states by that age they can solve an equation of 2degree… at best cases…
You were also referred to the economical help Germany has given us. Firstly, I would like to thank all the Germans and whoever has aid us and secondly to reveal to you that many of those funds (about 80 billion) are owed to Greece as compensation from the 2 Global war. Despite that, Germany has never given those money back. In addition, you are not familiar with the obligation Greece has: to buy each year from Germany, France, America military equipment (about 3 billion) and in many cases equipment which is useless and always with surplus value. So if we want to speak with numbers yes by now Greece has given much more that you imagine to foreign counties.
Lastly, you spoke about Communism and how that terrible monster is the only present we deserve. Let me pose it the other way. Today, globally we have about 100 people and even worse 20 big banks that hold a substantial amount of global money. Those people-banks, seem to regulate our destiny controlling governments and their decisions. And still you believe that capitalism is the golden apple to our world, you still claim that in America or in Greece or all over the world we have democracy. You know pretty well that the democracy all over the world is fake. You are just in the pleasant position to be one of those who have power to abolish democracy from the power the capitalism has given you. It is the same monster only with a different mask. We know that face here in Greece, in Portugal etc and soon that strict face will be known to Americans too. Imagine… Your greed has come to the point to lose respect for your own country.
And lastly, as a Greek citizen, our future is dedicated. We know it. We have our responsibilities, we have made mistakes but all states have. The major problem is not those omissions but that there are some certain people who want to gain from putting us into poverty. And yes we will come into poverty. We know it, we have realize it and thus we are not afraid. All our lifes we live having problems we have learned to fight to stand up. The point for my nation is not what we will become, but when the end will come. That's our agony…So what? I am 23 years old and my income is 400 euros, for my parents is 1200 euros after all these years of hard work, to have 2 jobs(as a civil servant in the morning and as a farmer in the afternoon). Life still goes on, we have learned to live having no money and still I am happy only having the right to live in my country, to preserve the right to continue the history of my ancestors. Even if today we don't honor enough our legacy there is one major thing we haven't lost yet. To have moral barriers to respect and companionate. Those things are unknown feelings for you and your employer. But that's life, priorities. And I am happy to be poor but human rather than rich and ruthless, someone who chases the happiness in the glory of wall street…
Conster refers to Frezza's "tongue in cheek" article when in fact it is "foot in mouth."
Regarding Stephanos Manos, all his virtues aside, it should be noted that many of his ideas have much in common with the neo-liberalism that has caused so much economic misery in the US.
Whether it is "neoliberalism" or the absence of that has caused "economic misery" in the US is a point for debate. Re Greece, the fact is –undisputed by none bar the extreme left– that the pubic sector is bloated beyond belief, all public-run companies are loosing money, taxation policies are complicated and basically unjust, making tax evasion morally justified to many Greeks, and I could go on forever. The point is that most reforms needed right now are basically common sense reforms –as requested by the so-called troica– which could be implemented rather quickly and easily if only the government had the political will to do so.
Unfortunately you excibit the classic Greek behaviour of exageration. However your foreign readers will most probably take literally all the unfounded stuff you say.
Communist and related parties are frozen to a small minority of voters (many elders and many too young ones [who later on grow up and jump to other parties]).
Greek Tourism isn't going down this year, the reverse trend is observed. Greece is still considered one of the safest places to visit.
People in Greece value private property more than in any other country. The issus is that they don't have respect for public property and are suspicious to the state and because of bloated laws with elaborate details and bureucracy they tend to bend the law (which public servants [for taxation, buildings etc.] had turned to their benefit asking for bribes)
Birbilis, I think you are mistaken. I don't see Greeks respecting private property. Maybe you should come to my house and see all the Graffiti that Greeks write all over the area, and even we've even painted over it, the jerks come back and write their nonsense again. Also, what about all the garbage that people litter all over the beautiful country of Greece. I think you should reconsider your comment.
Also, regarding Turkey, don't forget their economy wasn't in a very good shape in the recent past, they even had cut off 3 digits of their currency in one night.
And don't forget their poor human rights score and the occupation of Northern Cyprus and denial to recognise the existence of a UN recognized country, Cyprus which is also an EU member. Now that Cyprus is going to be at the presidency of the EU for a while the Turks are escalating their threats that EU-Turkey talks will freeze etc. (they still don't allow trading etc. ships from/to Cyprus ports, not honouring deals with the EU and they want to become a member of the EU?)
While I am not Greek, but use to travel a lot to Greece, Western Europe and other Balkan countries, I couldn't agree more with the author. I am now living in Italy, which is probably the closest country if you compare the national way of thinking and living.
Whatever the Greeks like it or not, they are lazy and have been living on credit for quite some time. They probably don't like it, but now it came the time to pay. And the revolt against this. If they want someone to work and everyone to benefit, its time to leave them to handle it internally. Europe doesn't want to work for them. If you go out in Athens, all the coffees and bars are full. Everyone in Athens drives a car and has a home cleaner from Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania.
This time is over and Greeks must move on. Now it's time to work to pay the bill.
Communism is a very hard "work"… Bet you have a car too, Bet you went to bars and coffee shops too. You obviously do not see the root of the problem.
"neo-liberalism," of course, is in the eyes of the beholder. What has indisputably caused a major part of the financial crisis in the US is the absolute deregulation that turned the financial sector into a pirates' den. Greece has Europes' most over-regulated economy, more so or as much as some East European Communist states (Hungary for example)had. Greece's economy is the mirror image of America's. It is in a straight jacket. Freeing it chaotically would only create a different sort of extreme economic catastrophe. Absolute deregulation, of course, is the ugly extreme of neo-liberalism. Its victims fill the bread lines of America.
Mr Frezza has succeeded where everyone else has failed: he has united disparate Greeks in agreeing that he has a serious knowledge deficit where Greece and Greek affairs are concerned. Uniting the Greeks on any subject is no small achievement. A Greek Presidential medal would not be entirely out of order, and it would appear that many posters here would love a crack at driving the pin through his shirt.
Actually the GReeks managed to con their way into the Euro based on advice not from Fanny Mae but from Goldman Sachs. Oh yes, they wanted a belt and braces fraud job.
North Korean – stunted zombies. Hmm. Nothing like a bit of casual racism.
Mark at http://www.idgconnect.com/blog
I have no problem with allowing another experiment with what Bradford called "that conceit of Plato" in his history of Plymouth Plantation (remember, the colony was supposed to be socialistic, but socialism was leading to starvation, and it was only saved by an early derivation of Coase's law in subdividing property among families for use in private gain), but we might see them drag quite a bit of Europe into the mire with them. Oh, well, too bad for stinking Europe.
Mr. Venizelos,I wonder what will you testify and in what grounds you will pose the same argument in future when Italy comes to terms of Greece. And believe me it will, and after that comes Spain. If Italy follows Greece's example will you then say that Italians don't work much? Will you say that it is their fault? Because if we borrowed 150 billion Italy will need much more. Not to mention about Spain for which approximately the numbers reach the trillion.
Also, about Greek mentality. I have been to Italy and pretty much is exactly the same when it comes to nightlife or their attitude. You didn't say anything about them. Aren't you prejudiced then against Greeks? About the house cleaner.. Have you visited many Greek homes to justify your opinion? When the average monthly income is 1000 euros you actually believe that there was or is place for luxuries? Of course there are people who are wealthy in Greece and after all these they are the only who don't worry about their future. The average Greek though and we are talking about the 70% in the past and today lives with the income I referred and when someone gets to have a job with 900 euros today is considered lucky… Can you live in Italy with 900 euros? Certainly not.
Always, always you can easily find examples, to judge and certainly generalize opinions. Yes, we will pay and we pay for our mistakes…or better say for our loans. In fact, the 75% of the loans we pay off every year (which is about over the 50% of our income) come from 100 years before. So, believe me as those loans are still paid and overpaid off every year, in the same way the current loans will be paid off even after our fall. Simply they don't let you. And lastly, please try to see a more wide picture. Today, I have to justify and explain the other view and I feel the impact just because you come to conclusions without seeing or examining all the facts. It is what Greeks say: whoever is outside from the dance knows to dance better..
As I said, I currently live in Italy, however I am not Italian.
I am one of those nationalities that credited you and now trying to "rescue" you. A help that the Greek citizens don't want, as they want communism.
And yes, I see Italy being as lazy as Greece. And probably getting into the same problems on next maturity date. I mean Italians are quite lazy, going right after the Greeks.
Spain has problems, but not that much debt. They didn't live on credit as the Greeks did.
Regarding the "poor Greeks" – all of them have Macedonian, Serbian, Bulgarian or Romanian cleaner, or maybe or/and babysitter.
Go to any of these countries that live poorer than Greece and where the people don't have slaves like in Greece.
Italy is right ruled, that is helping somehow, however they are in the same track anyway. But, the right parties don't allow communism. I read what most of the Greek parties offer. They all offer communism in different ways. But you Greeks don't get it. You don't have an economy that can offer that for everyone.
Most of the Greeks are currently getting 3,000+ EUR (not 1,000) for 4 hours per day work. Which compared to Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania is too much. Romania even has more powerful economy than the Greek. It appears that even Bulgaria has much more stable and powerful economy than Greece. But the salaries in Romania and Bulgaria are 4-5 times lower.
It means simple thing – Greeks are overpaid due to credits!
Average salary in Greece should be lower than the one in Romania and Bulgaria – i.e. lower than 250-300 EUR.
Btw. I am from Sweden and I love Greek culture, but I hate Greek laziness.
Firstly, let me clear something. I know whatever I pose nothing or almost nothing will be believed if someone is prejudiced. Not only you but even me. If you have that opinion hardly I think you can change it not only for Greeks but also for Italians.
But, if you didn't see other posts I will test it again. I am Greek, I live in Greece and none of those you say for our wealthy life corresponds to reality. My family, never had a monthly income over 1500 euros. All these years. NEVER. I am at the early twenties I have no hope to find a job, as all Greeks from the age to 20-30, and I get 400 euros doing 2 jobs ,from 9-8 daily, from which the 40% goes to taxes(something like Sweden taxes with the difference that you take a respectable amount of wage ), for each job. Never had a cleaning lady in my parents house, neither my friends houses who are all these years typically in the same situation.
I must say of course, that if in a family work both mother and father they used to get usually about 2.500 euros. But they are 2 parents, two people. Even then, I have never seen a cleaning lady or babysitter. Actually, almost anyone I have met don't fit to that picture. Only one: whose parents had 2 companies and their yearly income was about 500.000 euros. And I don't leave in Athens. I am lucky to leave somewhere where the life is much cheaper. Those who now leave in Athens are in worst position. I don't know what you have seen.. but probably you had connections with people who were far away from the average Greek.(Doctors, lawyers, hotel owners…)?? Hardly to believe though that an average civil servant would take 3000 euros!!!!
Finally, I have a friend of mine in Sweden who is a physiatrist works there 4 years. His claims are that you are so organized that never a Greek should image. He also says that because of the climate situations and social patterns you suffer to a great extend from depression- basically you are mentally unstable. Should I believe what i am told? To make my conclusions so easily? Then each nation would hate every other nation. Do you want to get to that way?
No matter whether you agree or not the conclusion of the article is 100% correct.
Yes the author displayed some ignorance.
Yes the author did not use the correct arguments.
I live in Greece and from what I have seen it is more than obvious that the majority of Greeks do NOT believe in reforms.
Which other developed nation has a combined 10%+ communists?
Which other developed nation still worships a Trotsky/Marxist leader, Andreas Papandreou, who engaged:
-in a fierce antibusiness rhetoric
-in a massive public sector expansion (30% to 45%) and
-raised the debt level from 22% to 75% of GDP in just 10 years?
Andreas fiercely opposed the very same institution (EU) that the Greeks are now shamelessly expecting to save them.
People in Greece are as guilty as their politicians because they only cared about joining the public sector to "work" (=relax), become corrupt and get an open ended tenure.
They did not care about the debt increase that was needed to finance their hiring. They only cared about asking for allowances to show up…on time and allowances to…move around envelopes!
I have worked in both sides of the Atlantic and I have experience in developing countries. Never before in my life have I seen so many politicians and people demonizing profit.
The left is still really powerful here and unfortunately the socialists here are not the typical British labor party (or the German SD) but much more hard line than this.
dimitmant says: "Never before in my life have I seen so many …..people demonizing profit."
The Greek people do not demonize profit. More and more are working for the growing private sector. What they demonize is ill-gotten "profit" gained from widespread corruption. That much of this can be blamed on Andreas is universally acknowledged.
It seems everyone agrees with your assessment that "the author displayed some ignorance," though they would dispute the qualifier.
You probably did not read my comment very carefully. I have worked in developing countries (Mexico, Lebanon etc), countries that have institutionalized corruption and made some people filthy rich.
Even these countries do not demonize profit the way the average Greek does.
What the average Greek, with his left mentality, fails to realize is that even him is seeking for profit maximization: if he has $5 he will deposit his savings in a bank that offers a 5% and not a 3% return. Capital goes where its treated best and this is the world we live in.
So your argument is valid but kind of weak. Greeks who had the option to gain money illegally, did it, (generation of the polytechnic) proving that corruption is epidemic.
Thank you
Brilliant commentary from my newest benchmark, Bill Frezza.
I would never expect a different benchmark from someone who chooses to comment under the username smartdude. Thanks for confirming what I suspected.
That Greek and British socialist parties differ immeasurably should surprise no one. They have vastly different roots, and vastly different histories, in vastly different societies. Probably no two countries in Europe differ in all respects more than Britain and Greece. As a country, Greece is very much a work in progress and only on the way to becoming a modern state. Few, if any, in Greece would call it that. Not yet.
Do you have any facts or information, Smartdude, or are you just a yellow journalism groupie?
Do you have any facts or information to contribute, Smartdude, or are you just a yellow journalism groupie?
Sounds like Bill is a tea bagger.
How dare he suggest such an extreme end to an already messed up deal.
He has to be lying when he says Greece wanted communism, I mean, who would want that failed system that kills many of its victims indiscriminately. Socialism (what I assumed some people wanted), does not have to turn into communism…
And neither does capitalism!
I mean, come on, the dollar is going to collapse too, eventually, and I suppose Mr. Bill wtf would want to impose tyranny on us too.
Why is it, when a currency collapses, it has to kill off most of the citizens? Why, because stupid people can not envision an age of…
Advanced Machine Automation…
to take over, complete with people working for free (until another currency is established) to keep on top of the power lines, the sewers, the internet, the mining of oil and coal needed to do so and…
Of course, the mining of strategic elements needed for robotics to make ALL the solar panels and LiFePO4 batteries that we need to make this a better world, so we don't have to worry about high prices when the easy oil runs out, and to deal with excess infrared absorbers.
Mr Bill, go move to Greece!
Hi Mr. Frezza,
Your post or however this text shall be called, brings me to mind those long just-to-done conversations by retired oldies in coffee shops. Not to mention that, after noticing your affection towards communism, I for a moment believed that I was listening to some irritating propaganda targeting for some certain reactions (`provocacia` if you feel more familiar with soviet-like terms).
However, what I would really like to commit to this comment list, is that
I would expect some decent and more sober approaches to the "greek" issue, than a wannabe satyric approach which ends to be – what for really? – libel.
Thank you.
PS: I kept this tone in my post, because after checking your profile, it seemed unbelievable for a person who is aware of stochastic analysis and entropy, to make such generalizations.
Whoops, didn't realize there were already so many posts… didn't read them yet.
It wasn't clear whether Mr. Frezza really wants communists to rule Greece, or whether he wrote this in an attempt at satire.
In the event he wants communists to rule, sadly, the communist and everything-left-of communism votes in every election for the past 20 years amount to no more than 15% of the popular vote.
In a democratic society where the official communist party takes in no more than 10% of the vote, that pretty much should wrap up Mr. Frezza's communist fetish.
Other responses above provided facts and figures to inoculate the reader from Frezza's rabid ramblings.
Also, regarding the rosy and darling Turkish economy:
1) The US taxpayer bailed Turkey out in 2000 after their banks were pillaged to the tune of 200 billion USD by their own bankers. Frezza, the stories are not hard to track down. Just read some Turkish papers describing this darling affair that you and I bailed out back then
2) Turkish democracy? Let's see: Ergenekon, Balyoz, Christians enjoying freedoms, Kurds enjoying lots of freedoms…
Frezza, man- you gotta go visit outside Istanbul and Izmir and the Turkish Riviera. You gotta see the real action!
Frankly, I don't know from where to begin and where to finish with this disgusting/emetic article.
1) It is obvious that the tone of the article is highly arrogant.
2) Much of what Mr. Frezza writes are lies, while the rest are at least exaggerations. He writes "they can't possibly steal enough money from German taxpayers to save the Greek government from default.". How does Mr. Frezza conclude that the money Greece has received is a product of theft? Greece hasbeen given loans with high interest rates while rates are at historically low levels.
3) He refers to people who are sick (e.g. Castro, Chavez) with complete disrespect. The exact comment "now that he's busy sucking down FOLFOX cocktails while checking for signs that his hair is lows out" referring to Chavez" is just an example of his horrible tone.
4) He refers to the people of North Korea with words such as "a nation of stunted zombies", which is clearly an example of verbal racism.
5) He suffers from serious historical ignorance and lack of humor when he refers to the Greek Parliament soldiers by saying "They pose no military threat to their neighbors, unless you quake at the sight of soldiers marching around in white skirts." Apparently, he forgets that the Greeks ousted Mussolini and showed the biggest resistance to Hitler in the second world war. Those people with …skirts while other peoples of Europe with …trousers fell over unopposed.
6) He keeps the best for the end by asking "What have they done for the world lately?" Before he answers, he should try to answer as a half-American what the capitalist U.S. has contributed to the world for decades with wars, ignoring the United Nations (e.g. Afghanistan), their contribution to the situation in Cyprus, the war in Yugoslavia, the world in Iraq and many others.
After his answer on all these (and possibly in another dozens of things that I could write), he should read the exceptional article from Professor MARK MAZOWER of Columbia University about Greece and its role in modern history, in an intellectually more superior analysis, where he sees things from a perspective that only a few can see and Mr. Frezza proved to us with his article that he is NOT one of them!
PS: I'm one of those Greeks who fanatically criticize all the bad aspects of my country and of Greek culture but fight for a change. But I don't let myself to judge things in such a myopic way and I would do the same even if I was commenting for another nation.
Oh my, those lazy Greeks are the second hardest working people next to the South Koreans according to Forbes.com:
Bill, with all due respect having an ancestor that came from Greece 100 years ago, going to a Greek Festival once a year and eating a gyro there does not qualify you as an expert on Greece. It's bad enough Americans and Europeans whose knowledge of Greece, not to mention Greek history, is limited to non existent, wax eloquent about what's wrong with Greeks. It's even worse when some self professed Greek American does so. Shame.
We Americans especially should refrain from throwing stones because we are making the same mistakes Greeks did and countenance the same abuses of power by our political elites.
For those with suffer from historical amnesia, Greeks defeated a communist insurgency with American aid but without American troops. Those skirt wearing Greek soldiers were also responsible for the first Allied Victory of WWII and held out against the Germans longer than France. The Germans lost more men on Crete than the entire European campaign of conquest until Operation Barbarossa.
The Communist Part of Greece has never held power nor do they garner more than a single digit percentage of the electorate in any election.
Of the 3.3 million workers in Greece 1.3 mil are self employed with all the hard work that entails. There is nothing wrong with Greeks as is quite evident by their success in every sphere and prodigious wealth creation outside of Greece. Regulations and the ownership of a large part of the economy by the government has created a climate where it is increasingly difficult to start a new business and expand existing ones. Thus unable to attract investors the Greek economy cannot possible compete. Does this sound familiar? America under Barack Obama.
You are confused. While Greece has policies that are strongly socialist, it is not and is not about to become communist. It has nothing to do with Cuba or Russia or China etc. You are writing to pander to a political slant and not truth. You need to understand economics and democracy before you try to write articles like this one. Seriously
As long as a political or economic system works and benefits the people, does it matter if it is communism?
If democracy or free-market fails, what is the point of holding on?
Change for the better. (vzc1943)
I think Mr. Frezza was just venting some steam. I'm sure he doesn't really mean all that. But, I have to admit, it was fun to see the Greeks get so worked up over it. See, that's what's different from Americans and Greeks. Go ahead, say what you want about American, we're thick skinned enough to just let it roll off our backs. I say to Greeks, just ignore these types of comments. Are you so insecure that you need to respond to Mr. Freeza's silly premises?
I'm American and live in Greece and although I'm upset with Greeks for different reasons (Animal Abuse/neglect, garbage/litter everywhere/ and graffiti that no one (including police) seems to care about.
When Greeks start caring about their own country enough to keep it clean and respect the wonderful Greek ancients like Socrates etc, then maybe I'll look into their politics.
Bill, good reply. Although, I told them not to take your comments too serious and more importantly a fault with Greeks is that they worry too much about what people say. Americans get ragged on all the time, and we don't really care because we are Americans!!! If it makes people feel better to blame Americans, and they can sleep better at night, I'm all for it… I certainly won't lose any sleep over it..
But, a Greek American like you makes a negative comment, and suddenly you'll be on the Greek Antenna/Mega news channels I bet tonight as an Ektato (URGENT) alert.
Nobody really took you text as a straight-forward analysis and of course nobody believed that you literally support communism, but it was extremely difficult to be taken as satire since you seem to lack the basis for such thing, so the result was a bad libel.
Thank you.
Who realy does work? Do you work THAT hard to recommend the Greeks to go back to work? I guess people that all of us that belong to any big company (Global ones) or most of the Governments position in many areas and also on A LOT of protected third party companies related to these first ones I mentioned DON´T WORK THAT HARD. Shame on all of the people that don´t work at all mainly bad politicians Please, don´t 'say greeks go back to work'. The problem in Greece is deeper than we think, as well as in whole Europe poor countries. It´s that they are undemocratic in European Union and so on….please first watch this movie, and answer/comment it with me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSDQe3kMkXQ
What are you like 12 years old? Grow up. Try visiting Greece before you talk sh*t about her people.
The author's little lark and defensive statement reveals his total ignorance of how a "cute" little bit of fun in an otherwise respected magazine harms real people when such nonsense is repeated and taken up by other periodicals and posters who serve to inflame backward prejudices, distortions and hatred.
I hope that Mr Frezza appreciates that People in Greece who work hard and who have suffered from the consequences of the crisis and who do not have an opportunity to demonstrate that they are over-payed (regardless what the payment may be) "journalists" will not altogether be sporting about his little chuckle up his own sleeve.
You have the power to hurt real people, sir, but you are not simply "funny." You are a fool.
I would be happy to read from you in the future a post using the exact satiric tone as you used yesterday, for American minorities or for issues that offend them. Let's see then if those Americans accept that "satire" as you claim and how this will affect you… You know when you see people laughing at serious matters usually, anyone, would believe that this is not humor but lack of intellectual activity..
Xourdouboudrou2′s comments are well-taken. We all look forward to Mr Fezza's "hilarious" column satirising Jewish-Americans with all the racial clichés and Anti-Semitisms that will send his Jewish-American readers laughing in the aisles – at Bill desperately begging for work at his nearest MacDonalds.
The Greeks are down and they make an easy target for chortling bullies, Bill. They may not deserve sympathy but, like everyone else, they certainly deserve fairness. Kicking women who have slipped on the ice with your steel-toed boots can't possibly be as much fun as you make it out to be.
The only real joke in Bill's column, of course, is the "Dear Fellow Greeks" one.
Not bad–not bad at all–but I'm afraid Will Cuppy beat you to it by sixty years or so:
"Pericles was the greatest statesman of ancient Greece. He ruled Athens for more than thirty years in its most glorious period, from 461 B.C. to 429 B.C. (Strictly speaking, the Age of Pericles may be said to have ended in 430 B.C., when Pericles was found guilty of embezzling public funds. It was never the same after that).
"Pericles was the people's friend. He was so fond of the people that he paid them to go to the Assembly and vote, and they were so fond of him that they elected him year after year. You can't say Pericles bought them up, for how could he help it if they always voted for him?
"The Parthenon cost 700 talents, or $875,000 [1940's U.S. dollars]. Inside it was a statue of Athenos Parthenos, by Phideas, worth about $1,250,000. It was forty feet in height and was overlaid with ivory and gold. The Athenians accused Phideas of stealing some of the gold while he was making it. He had not stolen any of it, but the Athenians thought he had because that is what they would have done. After a while there was not nearly so much gold on Athena's draperies as as there was at first, and pretty soon the statue itself disappeared. It was not nailed down."
It strikes me that if more people in the EU had read _The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody_, the EU wouldn't be in its current predicament.
Dear Bill (or should I say Vassili)
As a greek currently residing in greece (and formerly in GB) I can say that I found your article disappointing, in many ways.
First, the excessive use of an underestimating, blaming tone against a whole country (btw this IS a common greek way of applying criticism, so perhaps your limbic system fired up as you were writing it, reminding you of your early influences by your parents), reminds me of the ways the communists speak of capitalist countries(are you sure your parent's weren't communists who converted?). It 's always somebody else's total fault. They deserve it because they are "…fill in the gap with your imagination here.." Give' em hell because "…..". One can only wonder how a FORBES journalist is allowed to write in such a fashion. Unless of course it sells – in such a case you attacked your own country just for profit- or if FORBES wanted such an article published, but in order to avoid the "racist article" bells, and so chose to give it to a greek to write it. All these hypotheses could probably mean one thing : US financial stability (and the whole monetary-banking system) is affected by the Greek Debt crisis to a degree that they need to push journals such as FORBES (and other respected journals as well) to unleash havoc upon GREECE. You were right Bill, in commenting that Greeks should take a good look at themselves – it's indeed a time for self-reflection, which IS happening in the greek society, but it's also a time for the world banking system to take a good look at themselves as well. Because they were the ones stupid enough to keep lending to a country like greece,not realizing the potentially lethal extent of the domino effect. Greed blurred the best bankers in the world mate. You SHOULD TAKE IT OUT ON THEM AS WELL FOR BEING INCOMPETENT. But, for some reason, very few people (including the communists who live to do just that – isn't it ironic?) do that. Cause it's the hard thing to do, to raise your voice against institutions of your own system.
As for the comments on greeks being communists, i have to admit that i had the same discussion with a friend recently. If Churchil wouldn't have claimed Greece from Stalin, we would be a Soviet in 1950, so by the 80s or 90s we would have collapsed like all other eastern european communist countries. And by now we would be in a free capitalist economy, with great room for economic growth, and of course with an annihilated communist party. People's reflexes would have turned to neoliberalism. But this didn't happen, and I have to admit, although it would be better for this generation, the previous generation would have to suffer.
You are far from the truth when you say that greeks want communism. It's only 10% of the population. But I have to agree with you that the influence of their ideas, especially "demonizing" investments from "blood-sucking" capitalists, is much more extensive. Unfortunately, the extreme-right-KU during 1967-74 led to the strengthening of the left parties after its fall, and the communists subsequently exploited it politically in order to push their ideas even further, and infiltrated every aspect of the greek society. Anyone who disagreed with a leftist instantly was called a fascist,or a ku-supporter, etc. So, in 1981, when Andreas Papandreou came in power, he understood the psychology of the greeks at the time, and did an amazing double trick : he reformed the country by enlarging tremendously the public sector (satisfying the dominant leftist ideas and at the same time creating jobs), but at the same time he took huge loans, which he distributed to civil servants, etc. This made him a national god, but the national debt rose from 15% in 1981 to 80% in 1990.That was the beginning of the end. Now there were hordes of people wishing to be employed to the public sector because of excellent salaries and other priviliges (full pension at 40 for women with children, etc)and at the same time fanatical socialist supporters, that everything had to remain public. When in 1993, Mitsotakis succeeded him, although he achieved a primary surplus for the first time in a decade, the government fell, because it attempted to privatize the national communications agency. The winds had been sowed by papandreoy and the leftists, and now it was time to wreap the whirwinds. Every attempt to change the character of the economy by introducing private investments was met by fierce opposition. The debts kept rising of course. Europe knew it, but still lended us money. And here we are now. So, you see, it is not communism that greeks want. It is a steady job that pays good and has privileges.
As for the "As wrenching as it will be we can take comfort in the fact that Greece doesn't have much of an economy to disrupt", I answer that it has an economy big enough to take all others in europe (at least) down with it if disrupted.So your mocking argument again isn't well studied. And yesterday's summit, was a grandiose proof of it. Right now, its not "poor greece", it's "poor us" if we default. That's why all this press keeps blaming greece. Cause its a pain in everybody's ass.
Dear Mr. Frezza,
even though there are some big truths on your text I have two comments to make.
1. Regarding your reference in the debts of Greece since 1832, do you really know why the country had remained in debt? Is it because greeks are just useless or is it because of the english-french loans with huge interests that were intended to set the country under "control"? Please read some history regarding the foreign economic policies of UK and France. You would be surprized finding out that this was a common foreign practice of that time applied not only in Greece but globally.
2. I can tell you're lacking in academic knowledge. Look up for the difference between socialism and communism. It's not hard, you can even find it in wikipedia.
The next time you are about to make some economic-political-social comments on any country space or time, make sure you have the appropriate and sufficient knowledge to support your arguments properly and not populistically.
Maybe we shouldn't be so harsh on Mr. Frezza.
Who knows: maybe this indeed in general nicely written article is not even his own. As someone else above wrote, it is important that it seems to come from somebody who at least has Greek roots, otherwise it would/could cause a real sh*t storm fpr Forbes. So maybe somebody else had the idea for this article, wrote it and Mr. Frezza was paid for his name and face being used. Who knows…? :)
@Mr. Frezza
You said that this article is a satire. Indeed I want to believe you had good intentions with it. A possible definition of the satire genre is "Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."
Maybe it would really help this discussion, where naturally feelings are being involved and stirred up, if you explained your intentions with your article. Clearly, one shouldn't take your article literally, but you wanted to send a message. Which is that message? Thanks in advance for explaining!
Bill Frezza American Corporate leaders and investors have no problem in investing in Communist China nor turning to cheap Communist labor at the expense of the United States Economy so what is the point of your article eh?
1) this replies to you article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ppJW01LeRrk
2) since somebody commented on my saying that Greeks value private property, I meant mostly their own one (in contrast with public property which unfortunately they have grown to not consider their own to safeguard)
3) the fear of countries falling for communism had led to the 1st Marshall plan (the funds of which according to US reports from that era, some "lamogia" were putting in their own pockets). It's funny that your article came some days before the EU announcing a new Marshall plan specifically for Greece
Well I for one am glad that I let my Forbes subscription lapse last week. NO one is asking you to pick on anyone. You are wasting time for everyone and what is worse making them angry. Who do you think you are? Some troll I guess. I have no use for you. Or your sick idea of journalism or opinion and editorial. What you are is a cartoon. Please place cartoons at the top of your next piece please. I condemn Forbes for having you as part of their organization. Good bye sir.
You've convinced me to keep reading. I love the shock and awe of your style. And it gives me good ammunition for the next round or time when my Greek friends start their conspiracy theories.
Dear Bill,
Perpetuating negative and racist stereotypes under the banner of "satire" can be very dangerous and unhelpful especially at a time where a country such as Greece, is currently undergoing extreme hardship, uncertainty and civil unrest as well as the ire of the Western media which you are perpetuating.
Satire is defined as the "use of sarcasm or irony to attack or ridicule a habit, idea, custom etc."
Yes, you have made many "think", but no so much about the problems Greece faces and how these problems may be resolved, but by your 'racist' views and stereotypes albeit under the banner or cloke of "satire". Behind every satirical piece, there lies a truth. The question is, what 'truth' lies behind your satire?
Mr. Frezza
Personally I can understand why you chose the "in-your-face approach", since it attracts many readers. If it indeed attracts "the most" readers, I don't know. In my opinion, epic contents attracts the most readers. And truly epic content is hard to write.
The thing with such kind of articles (satires etc) is, that very likely one doesn't make the addressed people think. Experience shows: they rather tend to reject that idea because they feel hurt and personally attacked. Having read Dale Carnegie's all time classic "How to win friends and influence people" recently (http://amzn.to/pCW2aN ) I now understand that.
While I find your article in general well written, it does bear a big potential for exactly that: resentment. You might get people to think, which is definitely good. It is likely that these people will be the ones who already have a similar opinion as you. The others, the ones 'to be converted', probably will do the exact opposite. That is only my opinion, so it might not sound as reasonable to others as it does to me.
I can understand what it means to put one's name on a, let's call it provocative article. Recently I posted an article in a Greek forum on a business network, stating my opinion about the demonstrations ("This is not our debt"). I received quite a bit of negative feedback. On the other side it showed me how important that subject is, i.e. to get people to think, but even more to act. So I decided to create a small site for this article, in three languages: www.nohopeforgreece.com I know that I won't necessarily make friends with that article. Yet, I don't feel that my duty these days is to make new friends, but to try to do my (small) share in overcoming the current situation.
Regards from Greece,
First of all I have to clarify that we're not all greeks "mad" at you. Some of us, including myself, are amused by your arrogancy.
Second, you say that greeks cannot stand you being satire on them, but I see this working the other way around as well. Ts ts ts…
Third, let's assume that it's true, a journalist is not the suitable person to talk about capital as he had never practised it. The same goes for academics, even though the main goal of economics in such a level, is not to teach someone how to make profit, but to observe the economic behavior of individuals. If you had done the adequate studies you would have known that. However, I say let's assume that the above is true. Then what makes an engineer and venture capitalist expert enough to make socio-economic comments on foreign societies? Your reasoning here appears problematic. I'm just providing some hints for thought, as you do.
As you can see you're not the only wiseguy around here :)
Christos Pierros
I guess the following (Greek) news article explains why the Forbes magazine is now poised against Greece:
Mr. Frezza
I agree with the core of your thinking, though I find your tone a little bit harsh. Indeed, great changes must take place in Greece, in several sectors.
But, at some point, where you ask what Greece has offered, the last few centuries, in humankind, you are either uninformed, forgetful or intentionally unjust.
Because Mr. Freeze, the last couple of centuries, Greece has offered to the world some of the top scientists, including Papanikolaou (Pap), Karatheodori, Nanopoulos, Markopoulou and countless others, at the moment Greek scientists lead sectors of the STERN project, literature nobelists, elite athletes, Olympic winners, infamous directors, actors, opera and pop singers, top solists in music, the most succesfull businessman of the 20th century, the biggest commercial fleet in the world, one million dead at WW2, siding with Allies and fighting Axis alone for 4 months, when other "ideal" countries of the north like Denmark, surrendered to a single bicyclist or countries at the size of France collapsed in 2 weeks. Brave generals and heroic soldiers. And blood, a lot of blood for humankind. What more do you expect from a 10 million population nation to give?
Greece, doesn`t need communism.
She needs to exploit her natural recourses the petrol and gas deposits, our unlimited solar and wind power, to break the geopolitical chains and act for her own interest. Build the pipeline that will bring the Russian petrol and natural gas directly to Mediterranean. Allow military naval base to the Russians in one of our islands. The Russians are begging us for this for years, offering huge ammount of money to rent a base in Greece. Offer to Chinese or ports and their top infastructures, so to establish Greece as the main entrance of commercial goods from China to Europe. And more, a lot more.
You may have a point Mr. Frezza indeed, but you lose it. Chill.
Hi Marios,
I enjoyed reading your comments about Greece. Although I think the issue is that many Greeks who live in Greece (as opposed to the diaspora Greeks) tend to dwell so much on the past that they don't seem to realize that the rest of the civilized world has left them in the dust. You say that during the last couple of centuries, Greeks have offered much, and that's true. But, what have they done lately? I think that is the issue. You cannot sit on your behind and brag how great Greece is today. Greece of yesteryear was a great place, but today it's filled with fookarades and katsufides who grouse over years gone by and dream of conspiracy theories on how countries are against them. Instead, if I were Greek, I would spend much energy on making Greece a great country again. Some suggestions would be: Ensure the police are allowed to do their job. Allow them to arrest the anarchists and unruly protesters in Athens. Any one who destroys public property (Graffiti also) should be jailed as they do in Singapore, or the US etc. Prosecutors and judges in Greece should work with the police to ensure the trouble makers in Greece go to jail so that the next generation of kids in Greece will know that if you mess with the police, you go to jail. Then, I think you will have much more pleasant demonstrations. I mention Singapore because they have a very strict government, but they have such a nice, pleasant, clean country filled with kind people. Not noisy, graffiti writing, garbage thrown out their car windows, unsavvy grouches like Athens (note: I say Athens, as the Greek Island folks are generally wonderful).
Now, also, when you say that Greece has the most successful businessman of the 20th century, I think you are mistaken, because Bill Gates is not Greek my friend. Onassis was a great businessman, but no way in the league of Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg etc, who are Americans, not Greek! But, I will say that Greece does have some great Tzadziki, and Souflaki though. And, although Greece does have a financial crisis these days, they certainly don't have a beauty crisis as the Greek women are certainly the most beautiful and sexiest (my personal opinion).
Also, for your information, Russia will never be allowed to have a military base in Greece??? Hello, wakeup, Greece is a NATO member country with responsibilities. You may see US American military bases as you have for years in Greece but certainly not Russian bases.
So, I know that you probably wrote your comments on the spur of the moment based on emotion, which is fine. Don't get me wrong. I also love Greece, but certainly it's best to reflect on truths and not emotion when describing the situation.
Mr. Frezza
Although I agree with the core of your thinking, I can not help myself but to clarify some things that I find unjust in your article. And I`m reffering to your question about what Greece has offered to the modern world the last centuries. Well Mr. Frezza, here you are unfair or missinformated. Because Greece has offered to the humanity the last centuries…
Some of the top scientists including Papanikolaou (pap), Karatheodori, Nanopoulo and countless more. At the very time I`m writing this post, Greek scientists are leading sectors of STERN project. Moreover, Greece has offered Literature nobelists, worlwide famous pop and opera singers, actors, directors and musicians. Elite athletes and Olympic winners. The most succefull businessman of the 20th century and the largest commercial fleet in the world.
But most and above all, Greece has offered blood. Lots of blood for the humankind, sacrifising 1/10 of her population in WW2. Fighting alone for 4 months 3 countries of the axis when some "ideal" countries of the north like Denmark surrendered to a single bicyclist, or countries at the size of France collapsed in 2 weeks. Greece also has offered mercy, when not asking, as she rightfully could, war compensations from a collapsed Germany.
What more do you expect from a 10 million nation to offer mr. Frezza?
Chill about Communism. Greece needs deep reforms in another direction. And that is that.
Dear fookarades
Allow me to believe that the main problem of Greece is not the Graffiti issue. Or the enforcement of law by the police. These are indeed some minor issues, but if the question is what Greece has to do to turn the tables, then we should take the debate to another level.
You see, not all Greeks are fookarades mr. F. Including me. The problem is that Greece opresses and punishes her most productive and energetic part of her population, namely businessmen and free lancers. And I will further explain how and why, reaching the core reasons of Greece`s tragic economical state. And I want you at the end to wonder if those things I`m going to describe remind you of something in your own country.
The main problem of Greece the last 30 years, and I want you to focus on this, is the ability of the governing political parties to buy peoples` votes and the will of the people to sell their votes with an exchange of a job in the lazy monster that it`s called public sector. This phenomenon has been rooted so deeply in the consiousness of modern Greeks, to the point that the parents advise their children from a young age, in which ways they could sell their vote more effectively for a job in the public sector.
And THAT`s the tragedy of Greece.
Greece has a huge public sector, providing bad services. To understand how bad things are I will only give you an example. Piraeus, a city of hardly 500.000 people, has the same number of public emploees as the whole state of California.
So you understand now, that in Greece there`s a monster, a black hole that swallows money, providing almost nothing in compensation, that`s called public sector.
On the other hand it`s us, me for example. Big or small businessmen. With 40% tax on our profits. Like there is an invisible partener that every 6 months is asking for his share on profits, but he never participates on losses. And with my taxes, I pay the salary of a couple of people who have selled their votes, siting on a public desk, doing nothing, or in the best case, they are waisting my time when I want something from them.
But, my taxes or my next bussinessman`s taxes, are not enough to feed this monsters, these political armies. So Greece has to borrow money every year to feed them, cause the monster has become so big, it can`t be controlled anymore. And more loans the country gets, more taxes on my back to repay them. Punishing me and the people of my kind for trying to create, to progress, to evolve.
I call these public workers, political armies. And they are indeed. They are the main voters of the 2 largest, corrupted political parties in Greece. They are the very part of Greek population that keeps Greece chained to nothingness.
Now you see the problem, you can imagine the solution. Greece is a rich country, one of the richest in Europe. There are people here who want and are able to achieve much.
Let the private sector take the initiative in a healthy environment and Greeks, the healthy part of them, will do wonders. We did it before, we`ll do it again.
And a sidenote here on your comment about the Russian naval base. Of course Greece has every right to RENT her land to anyone. The US military bases in Greece were given for FREE fulfilling any NATO obligation.
Anyway. What mr. Frezza missed in his thoughts, is that Greece has already a strange kind of communism, at least in economical terms. What she needs now, is a rapid turn to healthy capitalism. As fast as possible.
I enjoyed reading your article, it is full with real feelings of someone who obviously is living and working in Greece, feelings that range from disappointment to the will and hope for things to be better.
Allow me to comment on some of your aspects:
You write: "The problem is that Greece opresses and punishes her most productive and energetic part of her population, namely businessmen and free lancers."
My comment: Without wanting to accuse you personally of any ill practices, if you are Greek and therefore read Greek, please have a look at this article in Kathimerini: http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_economy_100054_05/11/2009_335974
It states that the small and medium sized businesses and freelancers account for 30 billion € in tax evasion… (sic!). I haven't found out yet if this is per year (I hope so because THAT would be a rather easy way to save a huge amount of money each year) or as an overal amount so far. Like I said: no offense to you personally since you surely always have paid what you owed, but think that we (who live in Greece) knew already before this Kathimerini article that tax evasion especially from businesses is a huge subject in Greece… unfortunately. Sure, a business owner will tell me now that s/he doesn't have any other choice because the amount of taxes s/he has to pay is too high to survive without practicing tax evasions.
You write: "The main problem of Greece the last 30 years, and I want you to focus on this, is the ability of the governing political parties to buy peoples` votes and the will of the people to sell their votes with an exchange of a job in the lazy monster that it`s called public sector."
My comment: no doubt about that, Marie, and definitely something will need to be done here. You yourself call it a 'monster', so it will be extremely difficult to fight or at least tame this monster. There are so many people working in the public sector, you can't let all those go that actually should go. I guess the government now tries its best by cutting many of the boni etc, this way cutting spendings at at the same time is at least not completely firing people. Which would have catastrophic effects on the already tense economic situation. That's the modern Greek tragedy, right here… I have also shared my thoughts on some of these aspects on my recently set up site: www.nohopeforgreece.com
You write: "Greece is a rich country, one of the richest in Europe."
My comment: the other day I read that the Greek population (not the country/state) is wealthier than the German population. Wow, that was something new for me. I don't know if that is really true, I would have to do research but if it IS true this is interesting. I can see (I have been living 5 years in Greece now) that MANY people here in Greece are owners of the appartment they live in and it seems to me as if most of them also have a house either on the beach or in the mountains. I guess that is what Papandreou meant when he said: "Lefta yparxoun" (There IS money).
It is apparent that people who do not live in Greece should not assume that Greece is a communist haven.
Hi (Peter?),
Probably you meant Mr. Frezza with that. I myself have been lliving in Thessaloniki for 5 years now and I do have to say that, being German and practically not knowing what it is like to see communist protests etc on the streets, I was (and still am) kind of surprised about the amount of communism here in Greece, and the support it finds. This probably has to do with the past and the younger political history of Greece.
Part of this may be true, but what a shame for the contributor to declare that he is a Greek American! It's Greeks that feel the way he does that made Greece what it is today!
However, the truth of the matter is that "Real Greeks" don't feel or speak this way about their country or even their ancestry. I am very dissapointed, but also very proud to be a "Real Greek"!
i agreed with the article up until the point of hard working turkey!!!
Hi I am a Greek and I must to admit that your article is completely false and does not respond to the raelity even to the minimum.Yes we may don't like the capitalism,but nor the communism.We just want to bring back the democracy because we don't have democracy,a big example is the government Papadimou who came into the power without elections.I can write so many things about your false article as what we have done as new Greeks to deserve our great civilization that our ancestors inherit us,but I'm restricted to a simple comment like this.I shall finish by telling you that you know nothing about Greece of 2012 and certainly you know nothing about the Greeks.You only know how to provide the bad things of Greece because you hate Greece.Shame on you.
The whole argument is typical of Spiegel, not Forbes. Shame on the contributor. Is really Forbes endorsing such ideas?
By the way, Frezza sounds Italian; hence fascism runs in the veins. When Greeks were fighting against Italians (now we call them Fascists, but they were not from planet Venus) and Germans (now we call them Nazis, but they were not from planet Mars), where were the Frezzas and the Soibles of this world? Show some RESPECT.
Another point is that Germany, which propagates its ideas of European domination via economy, was rebuilt with American money because it never paid its war reparations (in two World Wars). Again, ignorant, arrogant, little men: Show some RESPECT.
I totally disagree with all your statements apart the one about the urgent need for change in the greek economy. Yes tourism is (was?) expensive for what it offered and Turkey is on the rise. Turkey is hard working, but have you ever visited the eastern part of the country? Low wages, third-world infrastructure and the suppression of minorities; not a first world image, unless business is the only criterion you have to classify countries. In Greece, we believe that freedom of speech does matter and to what to the extent I am aware of, freedom of speech is protected by the American Constitution (First Amendment ). If all that makes us communists, then blame the 39 Philadelphia Convention Delegates for being communists, too.
About stealing money from German tax-payers, something really misleading as the German government is giving as a loan, not a gift. In the same way an american living in Arizona does not steal money (via the Federal Reserve Bank) from a tax-payer in Florida. So what your theory says is that when Katrina hit so many civilians, the rest of the USA should have said "let them drown", as helping them would be really expensive. We, Greeks, believe in the social state (do not confuse with socialist state). When one member of the family/village/society is in need, we do care and give him/her help. You, as a greek-american, should have known that.
I am not sure why you & others like you – the enlighten greeks of the diaspora – never came back home with your theories of saving Greeks from their misery. It may be easier to stay in a well-organized state and just judge how little greeks work and how lazy they are. And believe me, most of us are working hard to make both ends meet.
And BTW, your comment about men marching in white skirts is at least politically incorrect (personally I would say deeply insulting). I wonder if you would dare to insult an afro-american member of your audience in the same way face-to-face. I guess you would not!!!
I hope you do not call this article "journalism", as it is a text of social and partly racial discrimination based on your financial criteria and vague generalisation, without taking into account any historical, geographical or social data that have led Greece to today's difficult position. Forbes, you could do better.
I just stumbled upon this article. I read it with great humor and enthusiasm. That is, I cannot agree with your view enough, Mr. Frezza. I love your wit and bluntness in this article. It is very resfreshing and it would be very nice if the EU power mongers would just say to Greece get the hell out you're on your own now. My personal view is the the EU power mongers want to keep control of the Greeks, allowing them to wallow in their squalor to the detriment of themselves, and possibly also the EU itself.
with a good leader(like Lenin) Communism works with a bad leader(like Stalin) Communism turns to Dictatorship
Shame on the "author". This has nothing to do with journalism. This is a pathetic scream of ethnic hate against Greeks, as conceived from a deeply cheap motivation. Shame on Forbes as well.
Bill, on my view, I´m sure about this. Both PSEUDO-DEMOCRACY based on Wild Capitalism or COMUNISM will continue and in a very fast way destroying Greece if these same corrupt leaders stay with the Control of this country…but on the other hand Germany and European Union are responsible for this!!! So let they PAY to Greece what is in the negotiation, even we may know the money is reaching the wrong people. Unfortunately this European Union as it is assembled is going to fascism and neo-nazism as stated by Mr. Nigel Farage. I recommend you Bill to see this movie to understand what´s going on E.U.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSDQe3kMkXQ
Take heart, Mr. Frezza. There is still a noble Greece, living among the expatriates. It is carried by those who had the wit and energy to emigrate in the early 20th century.
What's left in the Peloponnesus now is a worthless husk.
So you're a "noble greek" because you don't live in Greece? I moved to Greece after living in the US for 40 years. I used to share your opinion. How ignorant I was.
What I have witnessed in Greece with the elections is called democracy. I may not like the results, you may not like the results, but it is democracy.
But there is a silver lining. The establishment (the two party system) was dealt a blow. Not many other countries' electorates can pull that off. They're too stuck in the two party paradigm that's really representative of of the same elite power structure.
It's everywhere, even in the US, and many of the core countries of Europe.
By the way, this crisis is global. It began in Wall Street in 2008, and it still has a lot to go. It's spreading through out Europe.
If you're an American as I am, you should be worrying more about the new masters – the Chinese. They're taking over Latin America, Africa, and soon Australia. And what can the US do? It will continue to run massive debts beholden to China until it can't. Now that's a real problem that needs to be addressed.
What Greece is going through is what most Western nations will be going through.
Satire or not, opinion piece or factual, this is a really bad-written piece, for one big reason.
Satires identify themselves as such. To the "untrained eye", your article is nothing more than a libel, containing bits and pieces of truth with a ton of false "facts". Unfortunately, this world is full of untrained eyes. As Greeks living abroad, we have been reading about how lazy we are and how we should be punished for what we apparently did for years now. You are just feeding a very bad propaganda monster, that has managed to move Greeks to a sub-human level in the eyes of many foreigners, who now think that the mass-suffering and punishment of a whole country is not only justified, but should be part of any helping hand extended towards Greece, so that an example is made out of us.
You are very wrong in saying that Greeks are not self-critical. All nationalities and ethnic groups have their strong points and their shortcomings and as Greeks, we fully know ours. You do not need to humiliate every single strong point that we have so that you can present our negatives. And yes, right now Greeks are kind of lost in space, a lot of people are living in despair and our young generation has nothing to hope for, something reflected in this bi-polar election results. This whole political mess is history repeating itself, but even as bad as the Greeks are – according to you of course-, communist or not, we will probably restrain ourselves and not wreak havoc, sadistically killing millions around the continent and the globe. If our only crime as a modern nation is that we overspent and we are unorganized, I can live with that – and sleep kind of well at night.
Have a nice day!
Communism, hah? Oh yes, very spooky indeed.
For years they were telling us "the Communists will come to seize yours homes"!
Do you think, my dear "recovering venture capitalist", that for a poor man there's a difference between losing his home by a communist or a bankster? Don't make us laugh!
Yes, Communists are bad (if you have Stalin in mind), but totally free capitalists are far more worse and corrupted. They need to be strictly controlled by national gvts, but –oh, what a surpise!– that is not possible because they buy off state officials! Let's not forget that Siemens, Ferrostaal etc. played great role in destroying Southern Europeans' economies and I won't even get into the "party" major enterprises had before the Olympic Games of 2004 in Athens!
Pointing out the vices of the greek government is one thing but this article is an insult to the greek society, culture and heritage. You shouldn't be calling yourself a greek american. You have a very shallow knowledge of modern greek history and you seem to be getting your information from news coverage of demonstrations rather than facts. You say greeks have been pining for communism when for the past 30 years the communist party has not been getting more than 5-7% of the vote.
Greece became a westernized economy and enjoyed comparable living standards with its EU peers. May I remind you that the per capita GDP in Greece is still 26k when Italy has 29k and Portugal 22k.
Greece managed to survive and thrive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle) in a much more complicated setting than the rest of the civilized world, emerging from a 400-year long Turkish occupation; When Europe was thriving in renaissance, exploring the world and colonizing, our country was battling against losing its culture, language, religion and identity from the Turks.
When the rest of the world was experiencing industrial revolution, Greece was still trying to define its geographical existence with wars which lasted until the first two decades of the 20th century.
Yet, Greece gave the coalition forces their first victory against the Axis as early as 1940, which led Churchill to say its famous ("Today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks"). The world owes more to Greece than what Greece owes to Germany and the EU.
I do not know where your bitterness for our magnificent country comes from but I do know it is apparent in every sentence within your article.
Oversimplistic and populist tabloid-worthy opinions like this really don't make a point Mr Frezza.They just reproduce stereotypes and false impressions.
Ok, that was slightly obnoxious. Especially coming for a Greek-American.
I'll keep it short and simple.
1. Stereotyping is pointless when talking to educated, open minded people.
2. It looks like you consider Forbes readers to be ignorant, to say the least
3. This is just an opinion piece filled with logical fallacies.
4. I don't know which is worse: to be paid to write a highschool essay such as this or do it for free?
My eyes hurt, so does my heart.
Education is the only way out misery.
Please, get one.
I'm sorry sir but your are being incorrect. This article is full of stereotypes.
First of all it is impolite to judge a nation by its government. Greeks are not lazy, they work very hard (see this excelent article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304) and more important most of Greeks mock communism.
It's also inaccurate and kind of offensive when you say that Greece lives in expand of others. No one has gifted money in Greece. All the money Greece have lended is being paid back with big rate and also about 80% of them is going back to Greece's lenders because they are being spend in millitary equipment, technological products etc.
Finnaly it is unacceptable to refer to a nation like it is a souless thing and we should do experiment in order to see if communism is still alive. There are human lifes that are depending on how this crisis will end and it would be better if we didn't consider it as just numbers in a paper.
As usually an ignorant US citizen that has no clue of the world's history nor geography gives his opinion about a nation that he doesn't know nor will.
You portrait a stereotype based on the latest elections after a 2 years posterity measures.
Give us a break! Go eat you hamburgers, watch your cable tv, vote 2 times for Bush (even 3 if you like), proclaim for global warming but constantly turn on your air condition full blown.
And after all these write a comment for a nation that has given you more than 30% of your vocabulary, the right to criticize, democracy, sports etc.
Also learn your the world in not only the USA but expands beyond your borders.
finally, i at least had the decency to learn your language, have visited your country few times, know part of your history and of course know some of your easy, not that sophisticated language. When you will be close to that we can talk.
Now please go back to your TV series….
let me characterize you according to your mean-spiritidness. You are a proper@#$%^. Your characterization is not befit to be read. Much like your article. Your American born dynasty, the Papandreous brought back all the butcher communists that had resided in the iron curtain and still the communists do not hold a majority. It is inevitable that the Greeks as any people would object to the loss of their sovereignty and the wholesale of all their material value by a corrupt system and a corrupt government. If the national debt in the US is successfully trippled within two years, and your president and his family find themselves enriched by 30billion dollars and the official state does not persecute anyone legally, I would much like to read your commentary then. As for the soldiers in skirts, outnumbered and outgunned they held off the forces of the Axis in World War II much longer than any other country. When France surrendered in six days, a Greece torn by civil strife held on for almost a year, killing off Hitler's elite paratroopers and making him delay his Russian campaign till winter, only to meet the fate of Napoleon. Your prideful country would not have suceeded in D-day without those soldiers in white skirts.
Germany does not need Greece now, that it has contributed its gold stores to the Euro and their value has gone 400% up since the day of their deposition to German banks. Greece has more than overpayed its debtors. It has in fact prepaid them.
May what you wish on my country come upon you and yours.
Interesting opinion, based on lack of historical knowledge, mere empathy and genuine ability of not-thinking………………..
Well my guess is that the truth is somewhere in the middle I am Greek and proud of that as any man is for his country, however what the author fails to mention is that:
GREEKS ARE NOT COMMUNIST only 8% voted for KKE the communist party and the same % voted for fasist Right party the rest 84% is in the middle!!!!
1. Greek Politicians have been used as puppets of the big powers and global companies, pharmaceuticals etc (U.S-Germany-France-Russia, G.E-Siemens etc) so that a small country like Greece purchases expensive useless weapons, tanks etc with loans given from the country-supplier!
2. Of course banks make huge profits on these loans while it is the suppliers who guarantee these loans and give money under the table and corrupt our system, after 30-40 years of corruption it is only logical that corruption and mafia practices are in every aspect of our society!
3. I do not deny that Greeks (who vote and live in the country) are not to be blamed but it is not my fault as voter if for more than 25 years the Right parties who govern us have failed to "fix" Greece and the systemic problems of our democracy. It is not the average Greek who takes advantage of this, people are victims of this and trapped in the system.
4. The fact that people choose a left party -not communist- is only logical since right-wing potiticians are part of the mafia and people no longer trust them!!!
5. In a similar fashion, France-Spain and other south E.U countries and their voters are frustrated by the capitalist-democracy that US and EU official prefer in order to protect their own interests, -Germany as you know is the largest exporter in EU- you will soon find out that other EU countries will prefer a Left-orientated governement over right wing politicians…and a few will also choose extreme right party!
6.So dear Author we are not a communist country! nor do we desire to become one, unless you have arguments that show that KKE the communist party will be 1st in the comming elections and if you do please let me know so that I can flee the country.
7. I forgot to mention that most Greeks do not like communism!! Concerning the civil war if you had the decensy to read a few books on world history you would find out and probably would be suprised to find our that similar civil wars at the time or earlier occured in many countries!!! I believe it was named Cold-War or maybe you have only heard of Luca's STAR-WARS??
8. Yes we work longer houres than other E.U countries and we have failed to build factories and large corporations due to the systemic problems of the traitor-wise governments that have been rulling this magnificent, strategicaly located, rich and beautiful country!!!…and also because we like cold bear or ouzo and play backgamon under the sun and swim in clear waters and have sex under the stars… I don't know.
9. Because we are Greek orthodox and we have good contacts with Russia does not make us Lenin followers or Stalin NOR do we deserve Albania style communist.
Last but not least
10. Your comments dear Author are as stupid as saying that all South U.S Americans are racists and in favor of slavery and that one day when U.S runs into trouble (it will not be an empire and world leader for ever) and maybe if your economy too had near 25% unemployment and huge deficit people would react. Would people not strive for change in the policy of the government if everything around them collapsed??
If I am not mistaken it was in N.Y that people demonstrated 99% against 1% of rich people…
@theauthor: Why don't you come to Greece for Vacations, maybe visit the village where your ancestors fought against the Turks, then later where your grandfather fought against the Nazi's and where today your cousins are fighting for a better life for their children…
why dont you bring your familly and friends, all together visit the Acropolis and our museums, enjoy the food, drinks etc and then right an article about whether Greece deserves communism or not maybe you prefer Communist Cuba over Greece for your holidays…
It is quite sad to see such platitudes, over-generalizations, and downright misinformation about Greece, its political system, and its "irrelevant economy" (largest commercial fleet in the world, anybody?). Communism, you say?! Do you know ANYTHING about Greek politics? The Communist Party received 8% of the national vote. And all that garbage wrapped in the vilest contemptuous language. Does anybody review what is published in FORBES?
Μr Frezza,
Greeks don't deserve communism. Greeks deserve dignity. I don't Know what we have done for the world lately, but i do Know what we haven't done. We haven't' killed people all around the world in the name of freedom and democracy, in order to consume the enormous amount of weapons we produce.
Yes, Mr Frezza we do have problems, major problems to solve. Thousands of people suicide, thousands of children go to school every morning starving, thousands of people are homeless. But we fight, Mr Frezza, we try to change the political status that led us to the point we are today. We do help each other Mr Frezza, gathering food, clothes, medicines, to help each others. Because we have dignity Mr Frezza, we care of each other, something you Americans have lost. Please Mr Frezza don't call yourself Greek-American, because you aren't. If you were you'll have to admit that Greece has offered the world brilliant minds that work in the best jobs all over the world including 'Forbes".
And by the way, Turkey doesn't belong to Europe. It is a part of Asia (Minor Asia). And we are talking about European Union………
The article suggests that Greeks have been systematically deprived of their favourite regime (namely communism) for a century or so.
If this were true, then how exactly did it happen?
Who are those invisible "guardian angels" and perpetrators of this hundred year long "rescue" from a genuine and serious socialist government?
Could they be the very same people urged now by the author to finally let us be and freely satisfy our natural leftist inclination?
And if it were so, how can we greeks be held fully responsible for our course up to now? What will it be? Manipulated or accountable? One can't have both…
Personally I would go for "accountable" firstly because I do realize our shortcomings and secondly because the majority of greeks are not opressed communists (at least not yet).
But then again, make no mistake: If communism turns out to be the people's choice, then communism it will be. And not by Forbes readers' leave. This is neither the 50′s nor is this America.
ti malakas einai aftos. what an ass is this guy.
But Mr. Frezza, don't you know that Greece is already a stalinist country in many respects? (in my opinion second to North Korea).
1. Machiavellian bureaucracy.
2. Taxes upon taxes upon taxes to the same suckers who pay taxes, which are tantamount to confiscation of private property by the state: the real estate market is already dead, and bank deposits will follow suit.
3. Extremely hostile environment to private investment and enterpreneurship.
4. State's involvement in anything imaginable.
So what you say that Greece deserves, is already there, I would say 90%. Whether this will become 100% remains to be seen.
Actually – though it greatly pains me to admit this – I couldn't agree more…
Greece is practically the last near-communist state in the western world as far as its internal market is concerned and on top of that we are also a mirror image of Iran in the European Union what with our religious superstitions, the all-encompassing intermingling of church-and-state and our rampant antisemitism.
It's a sorry truth but the whole country seems to be bent on self-destruction…
Actually – though it greatly pains me to admit this – I couldn't agree more…
Greece is practically the last near-communist state in the western world as far as its internal market structure is concerned and on top of that we are also a mirror image of Iran in the European Union what with our religious superstitions, the all-encompassing intermingling of church-and-state and our rampant antisemitism.
It's a sorry truth but the whole country seems to be bent on self-destruction…
the meaning of the European society is to preserve a united strong economy where all members have to give aim to each other. Greece is now suffering from a false crisis that bankers have created. We don't want to establish communism just as you previously described . All these years you have destorted the truth about our nation. We are hardworking people and we are not paid well. Furthermore we are high educated but unemployed. You believe that you gave us money but nothing of these used to develop our economy conversely we were forced to use them to pay back our bills. As for Germans? Pay for the disaster and deaths you an our money back and we will pay you too you
My Greek-American friend it is not Greece and its people that they are the disease. The real disease is nothing but the "believing that you have the right to perpetually consume more than you produce" that you stand so strong for it, and results the hunger, inequality and poverty in 2/3 of the rest of the world. Human rights stand above every bank and bankers. We are fighting for a better future, not only for a better future for Greeks but for all people on the world! And by the way i'm not a Communist.
I am a Pirate and i will fight for my rights as human being till the end.
Dear Sir, I read your article and I have to note that your article is inaccurate, disturbing and humiliating for our nation.
Out of the 9.9M registered voters with a 65% participation you will find that only 20% of the parties making it to the parliament are leftish. (Those that did not vote usually belong to right wing parties)
Please don't take me wrong, there is nothing bad about being a communist a liberal or whatever, since, dear sir, believe it or not, we do have a democracy.
You would agree with me, 20% hardly makes it a majority but articles like yours do send people to the extremes because Greece is not only about "lamb chops, yogurt, and olive oil".
Apparently, you have not experienced the hospitality of our world acclaimed islands
on the land of hospitable Zeus.
You need to understand and distinguish between corrupt and unethical politicians and the people of Greece that are the victims in all this.
You also need to re-read your history books regarding the so called Churchillian intervention bringing Greece back from the brink, as you say. It was indeed the local fighters of "E.L.A.S" that initially were formed by communist patriots by as the time progressed people from all political ranks joined, that liberated Greece from the Nazis. What the "friendly" forces did at the end was to kick out "E.L.A.S" and deliver the country to those that had betrayed it a few years back. What a salvation, indeed.
You also seem to be making a comment that Greeks don't work hard enough. Again you need to realize that the problem we face is not that we do not work hard enough, but the fact that, again the politicians, in order to secure votes, offered jobs in the public sector to many. The issue is that people instead of pursuing development through entrepreneurship settled for the easy life of a public worker.
Of course, not all public public workers are a nuisance since you will find hard working people there, as well. The state, though, could and should, operate with a smaller workforce in order to be less bureaucratic and more efficient.
As an international citizen and then as a Greek I would like to remind the author of this article that the crisis didnt begin from Greece. It all began from the Lehman Brothers and the US banking system-which he represents- due to the uncontrolled loans for land/property sales. As for propaganda that Greeks are lazy I will only forward the link of the OECD for the actual annual hours worked per worker globally (and that is not a Greek institution so it does lie Mr Frezza: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=ANHRS
1778 hours for the US worker, 1419 hours for the German worker, 1377 hours for the Netherlands worker and 2109 hours for the GREEK WORKER. If you werent lazy and you had done you homework before you post this article you would know that only Koreans (2193) work more than Greeks.
Moreover, it was investment banks like Goldman Sachs and other speculative funds that cooperated with the government and worked to hide much of Greece's debt over the past few years by designing derivatives that would make it look like the country's finances were better than they really were. It is a system game not a population game and I dont understand why you do not attack the banks you work for and you attack the people.
As for the German "taxpayer" hint I would like to remind you the Siemens scandal, which cost the Greek citizens billions of euros, the german submarines that are all defect and sail diagnolly and also cost millions, that the main airport was built and runs under a German company, the Athenian metro as well, the French Mirage and the rest of the military equipment that the governments were obliged to buy if we wanted to remain in the "union" which cost 10 times the Chinese or Russian airfighters, and dont get me started with the2009-2012 loans for which Germany has a 0% interest rate and lends Greece with a previously 4.5% and now 3.7% interest…not a bad deal at all for the German taxpayer who forgot to pay Greeks according to Jacques Delpha (he is not Greek and hence he is not a liar), Sarkozy's economical advisor 575 billion euros for war loans that they forcily took from Greece during WWII and war compensations .
And since I can go on and on I will only remind you that 8,48% of the population voted for a communist party and based on my maths that is not a majority…so what on earth are you talking about??
Closing I would like to say that I hate this negative propaganda as much as I hate corrupt politicians regardless if they are Germans, French, Greeks or Americans. If you are ashamed to be regarded as a Greek-American there is no reason to talk about your ancestors, because frankly with your views I am ashamed to be considered as your co-patriot. Lastly, if you dont like Greek tourisism I am sure that the 387 beaches that won the bleu flag title from the Foundation of Environmental Education will remain cleaner without you swimming in them and the Greek exports that had a 31% increase in 2011 can find a stomach that appreciates quality.
With regards a non-communist, hardworking non-thief Greek…
Too shallow an opinion for somebody who has graduated as a biologist from MIT, which means he had the chance to view the philosophical side of science before chasing the american dream of venture capitalism.
I strongly suggest that you spend a couple of weeks in Greece-not in a businesslike fashion at the Athens Hilton with an i-Pad in hand-but with somebody who can guide to the ineffable meanings of an old land and culture.
Till then, pls take a look at Henry Miller's: The Colossus of Maroussi, it is wothwhile
You tend to forget that Iceland made radical changes, when in a similar situation, without Marxist practices…. and they are neither North Korea or Chavez like. Oversimplifications like these are not helping you look intelligent
Shame on you Bill Frezza.
Your tone throughout this piece is inexcusable. Funny how people like yourself have the duty of 'informing' the masses, and also end up 'shaping opinion'. You are entitled to your opinions but your use of words and derogatory comments is very unfortunate.
But we would expect nothing else, from someone so far away (intellectually) to be able to understand; from someone who lacks any form of stoicism, and seriousness, and weight in his writings.
Yes, Greece has serious internal structural problems (spanning many decades) as well as a series of inadequate governments (a global phenomenon perhaps?), but that is no reason for you to show such an appalling lack of respect. Internal troubles were intensified and are now spiralling downwards among other things because of a global recession (your country's recent contribution to the world) and by the faulty Eurozone architecture.
keep writing, but consider honouring your profession in the future.
Dear "contributor",
citizens voted to live in the expense of others? well thats a very nice bubble you are leaving it too! All of us that got an education, work in private sector, pay our taxes and by also your products do not live in the expense of others… but then again you better work with stereotypes. Honestly you are an amazing writer!!! you should also say for all the blacks that are the same, the Chinese, etc. But your brain works only with these type of stereotypes and can understand things…..
As for your projections Tyrany will follow, well what you live in a free country right? The one that the media have a blast and feed you anything the want? The one that your dream is to go spend money in Las Vegas or own a small house in Florida…. come one give me a break. Be a real journalist and dont eat everything you are being served.
As for the get out of it quickly, well my dear ignorant, arrogant writer (hope God makes you one) first of all we didnt start the crisis. Who did?
So most probably you should also get out? Check what you owe! and also since you predict the future you will not always get out of it that easy be printing money, you owe too much to the chinese (if you know what i mean)
In this just to close up, even the so called carrier paths, economies, crisis etc will drive Greeks out of Greece, well thats life, we will manage and find somewhere work! But we will also have vacations to Mykonos, Santorini, Chalkidiki, Amorgos….. bored to continue…. places that you need to spend something like $5.000 to reach or travel to Thailand :) well you also have another alternative already mentioned the amazing Florida!!!!
if you need i can send you some pics of our summer houses, that no matter what even if we go outside of Greece we will keep……
you see it is a curse (economically) to live in Greece but also an amazing privilege (on of the most beautiful countries)
As for your article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9262068/Greece-will-run-out-of-money-soon-warns-deputy-prime-minister.html
We know this for 2 years know you info is kind of old. That is why we are borrowing money.
And by the way Mr Genius one quick question:
why the are borrowing us money?
Dear Sir,Although your article does contain a great deal of truth and factual observations it is negated by the virulence of your style.It would have been much more constructive if you had made the same observations and included helpful suggestions at an opportune time in the past.
Dear Sir;
I am Greek! and feel ashamed of what is happening!out here! came back to Greece 20xyears ago! lived in switzerland before….I agree totally with what you say! many of us feel the same! but our leaders!.;who by the way! have NO CLUE! about what it means "developments and insentives to attract "investors"!or even the sence of "partnership"!as an EU+ EUROZONE member..should be made aware of this article! i suggest that you send to mr. ALEXIS TSIPRAS's FACE BOOK or BLOG..(Leader of the far left party!and the like in the Communist party….)this very article! Maybe they will understand that "their idea of "patriotism..and the return to the drachma"is simply "DANGEROUS" , FLAWED and completely..out of time!and a return to "Cuba-style" rule…..
It is an old saying from the time Constantinople was entered by the Otoman Empire throught a back door known only to a few Greeks. It goes like this:
"The forest cannot be cut without the wooden stick of the axe"
Mr. Frezza, your article praising the "hard working Turks" and blamming the Greeks is a blasphamy to the classical studies and known history.
Are you trying to make a name for yourself claiming people should listen to you closer due to your "Greek-American" roots?
You are a "recovering venture capitalist" who should also become a recovering Greek and learn our history. You don't even know when Greece took its Independence from the Turs. It was 1821 not 1832!
When you wonder what have the Greeks done lately, look no further than Wilson Churchill and read his elogies for the Greek courage and heroism during WWII.
Also, study capitalism and comunism dogma and understand the concepts before you pretend to know anything about either of them.
Varvara M. Gokea, Esq.
A Greek-American, political refugee from communist Romania
It is an old saying from the time Constantinople was entered by the Ottoman Empire through a back door known only to a few Greeks. It goes like this:
"The forest cannot be cut without the wooden stick of the axe"
Mr. Frezza, your article praising the "hard working Turks" and blaming the Greeks is a blasphemy to the classical studies and known history.
Are you trying to make a name for yourself claiming people should listen to you closer due to your "Greek-American" roots?
You are a "recovering venture capitalist" who should also become a recovering Greek and learn our history. You don't even know when Greece took its Independence from the Turks. It was 1821 not 1832!
When you wonder what have the Greeks done lately, look no further than Wilson Churchill and read his elegies for the Greek courage and heroism during WWII.
Also, study capitalism and communism dogma and understand the concepts before you pretend to know anything about either of them.
Varvara M. Gokea, Esq.
A Greek-American, political refugee from communist Romania
As Greek woman, the only thing that I will say is that all these that happens are a very good financial game. Just like the American movies.!
They sucked out of Greece all that they could, and now they re going to buy all the COMMONs for pennies on the dollar, and Greece will end up the liberterian wet dream of all multi nationals. A suiper poor country, with no unions, no public schools, no public libraries or parks, just super cheap labor for the bankers and their corporate cronies to suck every ounce of blood out of the Greek people. Many seem to think that the Greek siyuation is unique, and some sort of accident, or horrible mismanage,ment etc… The truth is that Greece is juat another target of the Economic Hitmen that target nations like Greece, Ecuador, Indosesia, Chile and the list goes on and on.
You are a simplistic racist
More lies.
…yet Greek Basketball Club Olympiacos won the EURO Basketball Championship this last Sunday…how odd…
Θρυλλος ΟΛΕ ΟΛΕ ΟΛΕ!!!!!
Α ναι, και παρτε τ αρχιδια μου ΠΑΣΟΚ και ΝΔ
Dear sir,
Your article has been forwarded to me from a British friend with a comment:
"Something different – to make your blood boil……. and he says he is half Greek. It might be what Greece will get though".
I read your article and it did, really, made my blood boil.
I am a Greek citizen with working experience in the field of Computer technology and Management, operating in an international environment including , Greece as well as three continents, mainly Central Europe, North Africa, Asia and Far East. So I have experience working for major International companies, of US, UK and German ownership.
My family experienced, among other, two world wars, two genocides, one civil war, two dictatorships and one local war with Turkey over Cyprus.
My latest experience is derived from the effort to integrate my country to European Union and the European Monetary Union.
I found your article really prejudice, one sided, provocative and certainly not productive.
I don't pretend I can advise you or any respectable author of anything and I would like to apologise, from the out start, if I am overeating
My main comment is that people should not be criticised, their governments could.
In any case one could be a little more impartial and present both sides of the story before taking position.
So, I feel obliged to cover this gap, in an effort to illuminate a situation that, I believe, has grown out of proportion especially between Greek and German public
Greece has recently experienced a very hostile climate that has obviously been created due to extra burden the average German tax payer is feeling upon his shoulders.
No journalist has attempted to explain the benefits of European solidarity that, in the long run, would promote value for all parties. This benefit was fully appreciated and taken advantage of, by Germany, after the Second World War, and the reunification of East and West Germany that later followed.
Admittedly, for the last 38 years, Europe embraced Greece and tried to provide support for the creation of adequate infrastructure to allow integration with EU.
But this was not different with what Europe, as well as USA did embracing Germany for many ways:
We have observed the reconstruction of West Germany, which was achieved with American financial resources, but above all, and most importantly, we need to note that it was achieved with the protection of West Germany's frontiers for a period of thirty years, with no defence expenditure on Germany's part, a fact that contributed considerably, as also in the case of Japan, to a fast industrialization for both countries.
Going back, at the same period, during the end of the 2nd world war, Greece suffered a second blow, as it was engaged in a destructive civil war.
The ruins from the German occupation were not restored, instead, more material and social ruins were piled up till the end of this civil war, that took place, until late 1949.
Greece was, unfortunately, the only European country that was engaged in such civil war. This effected our capacity for economic growth which the rest of our allies enjoyed.
The residues of the civil war and the cold war between East and West that followed, made it easy for a military dictatorship to be established during 1967, this development, further delayed our association with EU and consequently delayed our economic growth.
Cyprus invasion by Turkey, in the middle of the twentieth century, and its aggressive behaviour in Aegean Sea, gave the final blow to the country's economy.
Even as late as it was , the final acceptance of Greece in the European family, finally happened, Greece, at last, became a member of the European Union that even the name Europe indicates the cultural relation. (Europe is a Greek name)
Yet, the infrastructure had not been concluded. The Greek state was not ready to follow the rate of economic development the rest of Europe was enjoying.
Even so, Greece was accepted, especially was allowed to enter the European Monetary Union with great support on behalf of Germany.
Why such extra support, from Germany, was made available? Is it because Greece was the only country in Europe that gave up compensation demands for 2nd world war damages? Because, almost every body suspected, that the country was not, really ready, for such upgrade.
Then why did Greece tried so hard to become a full member of the EMU?
One of the most important reasons, that overcome the lack of adequate infrastructure, had been. the need to defend against the remaining of the Ottoman aspirations of Turkey.
Unfortunately, the hope that Greece will become the European frontier to protect the country against aggressiveness exercised by Turkey did not materialize.
Greece, although member state of European Union and NATO was not considered, in practice, the European frontier and did not enjoy the same protection that other countries, after the 2nd world war (West Germany and Japan) or even other NATO members enjoyed.
Greece is deprived today of similar support.
It would take only a single statement of EU or NATO that GREESE's frontiers are considered to be EU frontiers, would have saved Greece from an enormous defence budget and would resolve the crisis overnight.
Instead, Greece was left on its own, member of an alliance that cannot cover its specific defence requirements.
As a result Greece is one of the main customers for defence purchases from France and Germany.
It is not too long ago, that Angela Merkel addressed Greece with the statement: "Proceed to bankruptcy and we will help you". This is how the bad feelings were created in the Greek public.
One needs to be naïve not to suspect that such statement is translated as:
"Sell your assets and some of your islands at low price"
This, together with overhealming austerity measures, is how anti German feelings were created and this is what encouraged extreme left and right political parties to gain votes during current elections.
I am not responding to your article to defend any corrupt politicians, corruption is unfortunately here as well as in many countries
I truly believe that the Greek politicians are responsible to a high degree for incompetence and corruption, but corruption has two sides, the ones they receive money under the table and the ones who give it.
One of my Central European friends wrote to me, in view of pending elections: "It is time for Greek public to punish these corrupt politicians"
Yes, we want to punish these corrupted politicians, yet, without abolishing democracy.
But how could we do that if the same partners, friends and allies, and specifically the Germans, are protecting them by not disclosing their names?
The names of those politicians, German companies bribed.
German companies are limiting their response to such accusations only to accept their responsibility for unethical practices, providing limited compensations, seeking forgiveness, just to secure the continuation of major projects in Greece. (See Siemens projects and the covering of Christophorakos who was the General Manager of Siemens Greece, who defected, hiding in Germany, avoiding Greek law prosecution).
I don't want, in this way, to provide excuses for incompetence and corruption of the Greek political system but we cannot close our eyes to the participation of other parties involved, leaving them unpunished to continue this practice, becoming moral perpetrators.
There is responsibility from this side as well. We need, therefore, in order to be fare and impartial, to examine all these in total. To resolve the issue, not only for Greece but for Europe as well, we need to eliminate such conflicts and hidden corruption, to work towards the successful operation of a multinational model of EU.
Europe, including Germany and Greece, has suffered enough during the 20th century.
The successful completion of the European experiment for an integrated European entity will be a hope for the rest of the world as well.
So Greece is a victim of conflicts of interests and an experiment. Greeks do not deserve Communism.
In spite of all above, Greeks still appear to be willing to stay within European Union and Euro. Around 75% have a pro European aspirations. This is due to their great insecurity.
Yet we should not underestimate the implications of high unemployment that has generated real panic and anger most of the citizens have with their politicians who brought the country so close to bankruptcy.
Finally I will be delighted if you spare your valuable time and go through two relevant articles published in English, in my Blog: See limkselow:
With Respect,
Nick Kouzos
Great response but don't trouble yourself too much responding in a meaningful way to the author who appears more interested in perpetuating racist stereotypes for self interest under the cloak of "satire" instead of taking the time to examine and analyse the real issues. He says the purpose of his article is to encourage people to 'think' about the issues by writing what is fundamentally a racist and ignorant article based on little more than the Goebels propaganda handbook. Frezza will be pleased to see that Greece may well end up with Neo Nazism instead of communism, or a coalition of both.
Bravo Nick,
Thanks for the history lesson and the well thought out analysis of the crisis. I hope Mr Frezza reads it.
I doubt it though, considering that he writes for Forbes (a joke of a "news" publication)
Mr Frezza
You obviously have no knowledge of Greeks or Geece whatsoever, except for the ridiculous caricatures that you described. You sir are a moron of enormous proportions, typical "pissed off capitalist", typical narrow minded right winger type, that suggests that there are only 2 alternatives, and since one rejects one, that means they are accepting the other.
The Greek communist party has never gotten more than 9% of the vote in Greece….EVER!
And Greek tourism was up 13% last year. (just some examples of your inaccuracies) completely out of line attack on a country you OBVIOUSLY and painfully know NOTHING about
Have you ever been to Greece?
Well i grew up there and I lived there for 20 years. i was there last August 2011, and I didnt experience anything but wonderfull hard working friendly people who are worried abouit their families and their country.
By the way, you bring up the mob that killed 2 people??? More people die in the hands of the LAPD alone per year, than all crimes combined n all of Greece. If you are suggesting that it is physically dangerous to visit Greece, when you live in a country that has 100 times higher murder rate and 1000 times higher robbery and home invasion rate than greece, when people go on vacation to Mexico every year, even though 43,000 people have been murdered in the last 5 years alone, than you are living in a made up imagined world of fantasy.
You could be in the middle of a molotof throwing crowd in downtown Athens and you would be statistically safer than sleeping in your bed in most cities in the US.
I m glad you enjoyed Instambul, was that supposed to be a slight?
I loved it too when I went.
Again, it seems like you re bent on making Greece look as bad as you can, not sure why. For every bank employee that has died in Greece because of this violence that you speak of, there are 10 tellers a year that die in CA alone from armed robberies in wonderfull USA
You were at the McDonalds or the Starbucks in Athens? U are a F***'n joke
Why are you so concerned about the 2 Greeks that died in the? According to you they are just a couple of lazy stupid communist Greeks, that were living off of your hard earned dollars, like all of us lazy, communist murdering Greeks. You see how your stupidity does not equal logic?
So, all of your life, you have been in one small part of one city in the entire country, for a couple of days, probably stayed in the hotel, never talked to anybody, but because you have a last name that sounds Greek, you are now an expert on Greek society, work ethic, politics, history and culture. Curious credentials.
You remind me of that character on Seinfeld, the dentist, who became a Jew just so he can spew anti-semetic jokes with impunity…
Those Turks are so wonderful, especially the way they treat Kurds, occupy Cyprus illegaly, and have military coups every 5 years. Gimme a break
You must be well liked and I hope suitably paid by Forbes.
You have succeeded with this blog, keeping it alive for over 9 months and attracting 51,000 views and 11+ pages of comments. Forbes , PAY attention, you have a star in the making here , dont let him go, but please do send him away, maybe at your expense, to fully educate himself so at least his articles convey more of the truth.
To counter balance some of the article and associated comments I am an Englishman that by choice has lived in Greece for over 20 years preferring it to all of the over 60+ countries I have visited in my 67 years of life. Yes it has its problems, but it still has provided the best environment for me to spend my life, and long may it continue – communist or not. Its people, the countryside, the weather, the food, and "standard of living" all are excellent and obviously to my liking. I have live din the States for some time before and chose not to live there as its standards do not appeal to me at all – I dont feel a neccessity to publish my views and comments on the financial pratices and govermnent there as it is for the US residents to do as they know the US circumstances better than I. I have a view, yes, that influences my actions, yes, but I dont feel the need to publish what would be a biased view of the USA. You obviously are different.
The "crisis" will play itself out over the coming months and a way forward found to satisfy the majority of people, irrespective of sensation grabbing articles like yours, and some others, which are written for dubious purposes and with only elements of truth.
Maybe the extreme left might make a better showing in the coming elections. They will only do this if enough of the Greek voters elect it. Advertising and the Press have a role to play in this in influenzing voters and I welcome your article on this basis and long may you continue to influence people by publishing biased articles for selfish personal reasons. If you could also do it in the Greek language it would be even more effective.
Barry Holley
I found your article ill-informed and superficial. It's a typical, and sometimes ignorant, rant by many Greek-Americans. I am sorry to say that I have a background similar to yours. I am a Greek-American and an engineer, though still practicing. If you would like to know something important that Greeks have contributed to the world, outside the glory days of ancient times, I would ask you to read a bit about World-War II and the role they played, and lives they lost, to contribute to the defeat of Nazism. Their contribution was dis-proportionally larger than their population.
I would like to hear your opinion about the recent (4 years ago) financial events that nearly lead the entire world to bankruptcy and significantly exacerbated the events in Greece and the rest of Europe. You might be Greek-American by heritage but you are Greek hater by mentality.
As a Jewish American and a Greek citizen of eighteen years (I'm a double minority over here) a few observations are in order here. Firstly I am delighted that there are so many comments to Mr. Frezza's diatribe as they alone are testimony to the psychopathic nature of his rantings. I am very familiar with the term "self hating Jew" but this is really the first time I see such a clear example of a "self hating Greek".
Yes, corruption is systemic here. No other way to describe it. I've seen it at all levels. Yes, there is a particular Greek trait of being jealous and actually wanting to bring down the success of a neighbor–any Greeks out there will know the folk tale about the villager's neighbor's donkey. My first years here I could not actually believe these traits as they are contrary to the Jewish community's values of helping one's neighbor and wishing him/her well.
Mr. Frezza's ill will towards his fellow Greeks is merely a reflection of his village attitudes that have not changed all these years in the good ol' USA.
The fact that has been pointed out by many others here that the Communist Party here is seen as an outdated pack of ideologues and Mr Frezza didn't quite grasp that..(perhaps his ancestry is from a particularly vehement anti-Communist village, and he is still sees modern Greece through his Diaspora glasses from the 1960s).
In closing it does make me feel relieved and a bit more human knowing that so
many others are shocked that Forbes could publish this piece of sophomoric mud slinging. I also take comfort in the humanity of Forbes readers… perhaps the editorial board of the magazine could learn from them.
Demetri Roubanis
A lot has been written and said lately about Greeks, through the blogosphere and the punditry, most of it negative, and most of it from people who seem to know very little about Greece and the crisis it faces, but think they know everything, and others who like to use Greece's crisis as a political weapon or tool, to advance their own political agendas and ideologies here in the US, and elsewhere.
What comes up more often than not is that Greeks are "lazy", "corrupt", "don't pay taxes", "socialist", "communist" , "entitled society", "living off of other countries productivity", etc etc.
Having been born and raised in Greece, and having lived in Greece for 22 years of my life, and in contrast having lived in the US for 24 years of my life, I wanted to describe my own personal observations about Greece, based on what I have seen with my own eyes, and through my own experiences and witnessed events. Not through the anecdotal evidence of my personal family alone, but from what I have observed to be the everyday reality of Modern Greek life.
I see Athens, a bustling city of 4 million people. Always going, taxis working 12-16 hour per day shifts to make ¼ of the wages a Danish cab driver makes in 8 hours in Copenhagen.
I see public school teachers that educate Greek students, on small salaries, who regularly out score US and European students in Science and Math, despite missing basic educational tools like libraries and labs
I see the baker open his shop at 5AM and the Restaurant owner (who is also the Chef) close at 4AM
I see my waiter, Manolis, at the restaurant who is his 50's, and has sent his 2 sons to London to study with the money that he earns working 2 jobs. He rides a Vespa to work, and serves tourists and locals with a smile and hospitality.
I see the fishermen, the farmers, the truckers, working hard to bring their goods to the markets. I see families support each other with care and compassion
I see Greek commuters driving their Honda Civics, and FIAT UNOs, pulling up at light and giving a couple of euros to the illegal immigrant from Afghanistan that offers to wash their windshield. The windshield doesn't need to be cleaned…
I see Greek police officers, risking their lives and dying, battling newly imported, previously unheard of in Athens , violent crime families from Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Russia, Afghanistan , and giving the same rights to them as Greeks
I see 1.1 million refugees/undocumented immigrants from war torn countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Congo having their children educated in Greek public schools, and being provided healthcare for free. These people are escaping hellholes that America, England, France, Russia and China have created, hellholes that have NOTHING to do with Greek policies or the Greek people.
I see a healthcare system with excellent doctors (I personally know many) , providing excellent healthcare to my 83 year old father, who is an Olympic Champion, has worked all his life and collects a 550 Euro pension a month (what a greedy socialist).
I see my friends, all of them , hundreds of people that I personally know, who speak at least 2 to 3 languages, without exception. In contrast, only 1 out of 20 (maybe) of my American friends speak a second language
I see 80% of Greeks who own homes, own them outright.
I see the Greek Coast guard risking their lives in stormy seas, rescuing illegal immigrant Somalis from their waters, and saving their lives. Contrast that to the way the Italian coast guard dealt with a ship of immigrants off of their coast (they sank it…oops)
I see friends of mine with degrees making low wages for long hours and not complaining. I see my friend who works retail for a Multi-National Chain, for 1,100 Euros a month, 48 hours a week, pays all her taxes and lives in a 450 Sq. Ft studio that costs 600 Euros a month. How much smaller do the banksters want her apartment to be?
I see people mobilized, interested and engaged in their politics and their future, and having heated debates. I see them vote their conscious, I see a democratic society
I see unsurpassed natural beauty, sparkling clean beaches and waters, clean drinking water, super markets filled with goods, the Parthenon, the Acropolis, excellent mass transit, modern freeways and bridges (till now), well maintained schools, parks and highways (till now) and I witnessed the most amazing Olympic Games in Athens in 2004.
I see a great multi-faceted country with hard working, passionate, honest, hospitable people, who don't demand or ask for much, enjoy life, work hard, play hard, and love their country.
Today we all see the country that gave Democracy to the world, being told to get on its knees, to declare to their current and next generation that they have no future, swallow the self-loathing pill, and give the BANKSTERS their MONEY NOW!!! GODDAMIT.
We are seeing a looting of a great nation, a looting of its treasures, its dignity, its history, and its culture. God help us all.
We are all Greeks, ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ!
Seriously Bill? We have violently demanded communism for a century? I wonder what part of Redneck Territory you come from-as the son of a reserve officer that fought a Guerrilla war against communists from every other nation in the Balkans in 1945 and for 4 years, I have to bluntly tell you, you know f*ck all about us. Shame on you and shame on Forbes for this piece of low IQ paid journalism.
tragic and patronising article of someone who detests Greece. There is debt crisis allover the world. The truth is that Greek austerity plans are unseen for the human race around the world. How can you cut the wage to a minimum of 400 euros? Why in the private sector? Why Germany wants to help us when they don't have the motivation to do so? They are at the moment earning our failure, by receiving what we are failing to do, their industry is booming thanks to the failure of the Greek economy. Why on earth don't you realise that Politicians are corrupt all over the world, just in Greece they are overly corrupt! So just spear us your thoughts and come visit Greece for holidays, then you will meet people that are spiritual well educated, open minded and very intelligent, so intelligent that you will be shocked and will never want to go back to your dull american reality.
Another moronic, Tea Party fodder, right wing liberterian sociopathic propaganda, and the jokes atrent even funny. You have no talent as a writer, whatsoever, and you should just retire and go live in Turkey where you love it so much
More ridiculous hyperbole and hubris towards Greece. The only thing you've managed to do in this crap piece is show your hubris, ignorance and bullheaded stubborn stupidity. You've clearly revealed you know little to nothing about the Euro crises, including the fact that the whole EU is failing, not just Greece. Go take an introductory economics course, and come back when you know what the hell you're talking about.
It is a shame to my country that yu are Greek American….if yu are…..
It was certainly unwise to save Greece from the 'iron curtain' in 1946 or so. The majority of the population liked communism, and they would have been much better communists than their unwilling neighbors.
Americans deride the system, but one reason why communism fell was because they underminded it so cleverly. Under communism all of Albania became literate, people got basic health care, and they did not starve.
And this is why communist parties in former eastern europe keep winning elections. Many people hate tottering at the edge of insecurity all their lives. The old Greek democracy is telling us something.
"Innocent bank employees"? There is no such thing at the executive level. To whom are you referring?
You might want to spend a few years working in/for the public sector so you can write better articles than this one.
By the way, what has Forbes done for us lately? Writing vanity articles about the 1%ers and their angst isn't going to secure any plaudits.
Thank you for this interesting and insightful article. It would indeed be very interesting to see Greece go communist. I myself know little about Communism, as I advocate more a form of benevolent scholarly theocracy based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. But I talked with an old friend about this, who goes by the name Bqggz. He is a skilled communist revolutionary, though somewhat eccentric.
He says that he is particularly excited about Greece as a communist laboratory because of the fonts. Much of the appeal of the Soviet Union was due to the slightly scary, but cool Cyrillic inscriptions. Greek letters are also (mostly) readable without training, yet they convey an exciting feeling of foreignness and adventure.
And let's not forget the climate benefits of Greece – they would have the decidedly warmer and more comfortably gylagos.
The problem, of course, is bringing the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) to a point where they can take over. Currently, they are lagging badly in the polls and will likely go down from their 8.5% result to about 5 or 6%. The poll-leading left alliance SYRIZA, as Bqggz explained to me, is a hodgepodge of social-democratic, left-capitalist, anarchoid, trotskyist and a million other factions, which most likely would not be able to build the truly orthodox-communist state we are looking for.
What the KKE has not yet understood is the importance of a cute and popular mascot. Such a thing – say, a handkerchief with a cute face – could bring them the support they need, and lessen the childrens' fear of the new communist system. A talking olive or feta cheese would be possible too, dressed in a traditional Evzones uniform. That has the additional benefit of being country-specific. Though there would be a problem with durability – feta cheese beyond its sell-by date is not pretty, dressed or not.
This demonstrates that when the workers actually rise up, capitalists and their paid mouthpieces openly display their complete contempt for actual democracy.
It is nice to see an American let someone choose their own government for a change. But in some ways, it proposes what is called the "Burma solution" in some Nepali debates: a cold-blooded suggestion that the imperialists "let the people do what they want" (in a relatively small country) while planning to let them bleed and suffocate in a form of sanctioned, punished isolation, similar to the discussions among policymakers in the Truman and Eisenhower administrations about 'quarantining' the 'virus of communism," i.e. blockading, cutting off and isolating a revolution so that it fails to spread elsewhere and you make life for the people there so miserable that it won't become a model that other societies might want to emulate. Then, after you have set it up to fail, you can derisively point at it and sneer 'see? socialism doesn't work!'
But I think it reads as sarcasm…. not quite as a serious policy proposal. If there is a serious heart to it, its they may "cut Greece loose" and then try to use it as an object lesson for the world (a lesson on why people should swallow austerity and like it).
But this also the proof that communism is still what they fear and hate the most and that they know it will always come back to haunt them, as Marx said. A spectre is haunting Europe..hehe
I say why stop with Greece? If it's good enough for them, let's all have a go at it! I'm game…
Now 6 months later the truth of this article is born out!
Considering what wall street gave to the world, that would be a major, major improvement. Now, speaking of communism, wasnt it united states which intervened in greece in 1940s and supported a fascist group to prevent 'communism' …. causing major massacres, destruction of greece. These are not remembered. never written. not in any western textbooks. Starting there, going to south america, to south asia, there are around 100 million deaths perpetuated by u.s. backed dictators, deathbringers like negroponte going to countries and setting up death squads to kill american opposition, (such groups are currently being prosecuted in turkey and italy in national court cases by the way), agent oranging an entire country to 'make an example' (hello vietnam), a few hundred thousand direct massacred during initial occupation of philippinnes ….. well im tired already ………. Ill conclude this brief history excerpt with a recent statistic : 90% of the people who lived old eastern bloc times, want those times back, in a recently done statistic in eastern europe. they think everything was better, fairer, life was better, and they were happier. of course they dont want the tyranny and heavy handedness that marked the era. but, it seems they dont think it was worse than what they are going through under 'free' democracy now …….. in capitalism, you are only as free as your wallet.
Oh gee, i forgot the huge loans germany gave to greece, SO THAT GREECE COULD BUY GERMAN SUBMARINES AND TANKS IT DID NOT NEED. isnt it hilarious – give loans to a country to buy your own weapons, which they DONT need. then, when there is a problem with payback, cry foul and blame those people with laziness. OF course, greek people were NEVER asked an opinion about the purchase of those submarines and tanks – but hey ! its business !! then there is the incident of $10 bn greek government bonds vanishing by being sold to goldman sachs et al for a few hundred millions – courtesy of the american aligned greek government some time ago. THAT actually caused the bankruptcy – dont you love dirty politics and economics – put a few hundred million, put your own puppets into power, have them sell that country's assets for a few bucks to you, and then call PEOPLE of that country lazy.
despite being lazy, would beat being sociopath bastards at any time – even if greek were actually lazy.
You know what, Bill ? Culture, especially knowledge of at least RECENT events in the past decade, is important – lest that one may come up appearing like a fool for the lack of it.
July 19, 2012
These geniuses
'Do not hesitate to act
as if you were in a conquered city (Athens) (…)
with blood if necessary'
Winston Churchill/December 1945
There are these geniuses who know what is good for Greece. Some (like Mr Worstall) know that Greece needs a new junta. Others, like Mr. Frezza, know that Greece deserves communism! Let it be. Everyone always knows what other people need – but never what they themselves need and know. Some express their own opinions; others express their master's voice – which is the commonest. In the case of Mr Worstall and Mr Frezza, who claim to know everything about Greece, it seems that they do not know – or do not dare say – certain things that concern Greece; instead, they say very funny jokes.
For example, it seems that they do not know certain things widely acknowledged in the western world – like what the historian Richard Clogg wrote in the London Review of Books this month as an answer to the British PM David Cameron's statement that he is going to close the English borders to Greeks if Greece is ousted from the euro, etc. I will not reproduce Mr Clogg's article here; however, I will say what everyone in the Anglo-Saxon world very well knows but no one – not even Mr Clogg – wants to publicly admit, for self-evident reasons. First, a junta is not what the Greeks have wanted (or deserve now!) but what England, the US, and Israel have wanted for their own benefit – and for this purpose they have the Special Services (secret or public, like the pages of Forbes magazine). Second, communism is not what the Greeks have wanted (certainly not for the last century!) but what the same 'allies' have organized and promoted in Greece by all means available to them (and with second- or third-rate pundits like Mr Frezza).
Geniuses like Mr Frezza and Mr Worstall pretend to know everything about Greece and even dare give advice – but not for anything really important! They do not know that any attempt to promote production in Greece has been squashed by the geniuses of England, the US, France, and especially Germany since the end of World War II.
Geniuses like Mr Frezza and Mr Worstall pretend to know everything about how many Jews were killed by the barbarian Germany SS – but they do not know how many Greeks were killed and tortured by the gang of the Germany SS and the gang of UK and American 'allies' with the help of Turkey, and also ignore how much money they have stolen from Greece during and after WW II. Some geniuses know a lot about Greece and the Greeks, but they do not know how many immigrants are literally imported by the US every month through (and with the aid of) Turkey from the countries which the gang of NATO and the US/UK zombies have destroyed. (Today, illegal immigrants of this kind in Greece – people who are illiterate, prone to criminal behaviour, and afflicted with every kind of disease known to the third world – amount to about three million).
These geniuses know every bad deed Greece has committed – but find it very hard to hide their own. And as Heracletus would say, 'How could one miss the never-setting Sun? '(i.e. the spirit of their poverty and the poverty of their spirit).
One might ask, of course, "Aren't the Greeks responsible for what is going on in their own country?" Of course they are – to a very large degree! But let us take a look at what is really going on. The European Union looks like a sandwich: at the top, there are the USA, the UK, and the rest of the LIBOR-gambling protestant world; at the bottom, there is Turkey and the rest of the Islamic world; and in the middle, there are the Catholic countries, the Orthodox Greece, and the English crazy cows. Well, under these circumstances it very difficult to do anything effective – this situation is hard to overlook…
Finally, I would like to thank Forbes magazine for its help to the Greek cause. In return, allow me to give you some advice of my own: It is easier to count the millionaires or billionaires of the world –'Every prophet knows the past,' as Epimenides would say, and the Judaic Christianity has lots of them – than to deal with the shit of history (economic or otherwise) in the western world, the UK and the US included.
Changing of the title from 'real' to 'appalling' does not change the matter: once the 'ύβρις' (abuse) is expressed, it can never be excused… It is not the title but the appalling secret thought that bothers the reader. Do we understand each other, Mr. Worstall?
Sincerely yours,
John of Plaka (21, Adrianou str)
i totally disagree with your statement.
first and foremost communism in greece and in the rest of the world is gradually languishing due to the ineffectivness of this ideology(greek word).seems to have run its course dont you think? i mean look at what a mess Russia is in because of Stalin,Lenin and their legacy.and North Korea , they are starving there while the dictatorship builds nuclear warheads.Cuba is 50 years behind the rest of the world.The Sandinistas were voted out in nicaragua.China has at last turned to free market capitalism because the old system broke down.It really doesnt work dont you think? And as far as what Greece has offered to the rest of the world i am of the opinion that the vast ammount of greek words spoken every day in english and the foundation of many sciences in many domains are sufficient enough.
I totally disagree with your statement.
First and foremost communism in greece and as in all countries is gradually languishing due to the ineffectivness of this ideology(greek word).I mean it seems to have run its course dont you think?Not such a great idea after all.I mean look at what a mess Russia is in because of Lenin , Stalin and their legacy.And North Korea they are starving there while the dictatorship builds nuclear warheads.Cuba is 50 years behind the rest of the world.The Sandinistas were voted out in Nicaragua.China has at last turned to free market capitalism because the old system broke down.It really doesnt work does it ?And as far as what Greece has offered to the rest of the world all the words spoken every day in english with greek roots not to mention the foundation of many sciences in many domains are totally sufficient.
It's attitudes like that that get identified flying objects boomeranging back. What a load of hypocritical bollocks. How much does the affluent lifestyles of Americans rely on the toils of Non-Americans ? And how much brutal dictatorship does it take to establish civil society to the innocents of an evil order ?
Who realy does work? Do you work THAT hard to recommend the Greeks to go back to work? I guess people that all of us that belong to any big company (Global ones) or most of the Governments position in many areas and also on A LOT of protected third party companies related to these first ones I mentioned DON´T WORK THAT HARD. Shame on all of the people that don´t work at all mainly bad politicians Please, don´t 'say greeks go back to work'. The problem in Greece is deeper than we think, as well as in whole Europe poor countries. It´s that they are undemocratic in European Union and so on….please first watch this movie, and answer/comment it with me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSDQe3kMkXQ
This article is a prime example of ignorance and immaturity combined. Congratulations. This is the first and last Forbes article I'll ever read. Clearly Forbes has a very low standard for its "journalists".
Dear Mr. Bill,
I, truly, find this article disgusting. It is evident that you have no clue about Greek civilization and the problems this country is facing. It is indeed repulsive that you argue how Greeks have this tendency not to work? Wow, have you read this somewhere; arguing solely on lies and assumptions just makes you sound more ridiculous. I will in a short sentence break all your emetic arguments by saying that the Greek's made their gravest mistake when entering the European Union, the problem in this country is the extreme changes in culture–caused by the European Union. Greece is not a western country and cannot in any single way portray "values" such as those portrayed by murders of the Hellenic people (i.e. Hitler, Churchill).
Honestly, I do not expect you to understand the true problem in Greece, and for this reason; I believe that without knowledge you should refrain from writing articles on such matters. For the time being, think how the American values cannot be reflected in every country as America has a serious problem. Unfortunately, the United States is the only country in this world that has progressed from the barbaric state of a society (one that every society has faced) to that of a declining society, without the intermediate state of civilization.
Ultimately, for the above reason I find it difficult for a country like Greece to follow American or Western values, and it is indeed true that our hardships prove me right as we are declining along with failing policies that have corrupted our government.
You're a shame to Greece, I couldn't give two fucks about your satire, and I am not even Greek. I just live in the states, so come to my toilet when I pee so you can swallow it. Asshole
This is pure drivel of the worst kind that you'd find in a tabloid. "Give them Communism". Are you 5 years old or something? You do understand that communism is not a bag of Pretzels or your favourite soda, right? KKE never got more than 10%-12% in any election ever and that the communists were defeated in the Civil War. So how exactly are you going to "give communism" to Greeks or "Let them have it"? Your choice of words reflects your naivety and ignorance. "The only Greek industry that's worth a damn is tourism, rapidly collapsing.." What a load of NONSENSE. Tourism is flourishing in Greece, rapidly expanding, with figures showing 17m+ tourists this summer, which might break a record. As for the rest of the industries, Shipping and Food Industry are quite competitive too. Your article is ill-informed, a shame for the host website. Absolute drivel.
This HAS to be the most ignorant piece of journalism I've read in Forbes for many, many years.
Full of racist slur and stupid propaganda. "Lazy Greeks", try "the most hardworking citizens in EU". And that is a fact based on EU data. Not an opinion.
How is it even possible that this guy is allowed to spread his ignorance through such a medium???
When I read this idiotic article, I thought that it was the by-product of the work of some university economist, who desperately tries to sound informed. I checked out and it is the unintelligible nonsense of some grossly misinformed finance and communication director whose historical knowledge is easily bettered that of my 14 year-old cousin. I am as pro-western as one can get. However, this act of revolting hypocrisy made me wanting to throw up. Although I agree with a number of points in the article however, the distortion is incredible.
Let's get more specific though.
1. 'a nation whose governments have been in a chronic state of default since the country gained independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1832′ Ever thought Mr Fezza that this is due to the usurious interest of London bankers at he time who lent money to a government, a nation that needed to free itself from the worse rule of all Ottoman? Nomimal interest 59% pa, actual interest around 115% when all the securities and other charges have been taken into account. That sounds to me like usury. So much for capitalism. Who likes borrowing at 115%? And yet these are the kind of guys you seem to like!
2. 'Turkey was left begging is a testament to the astute diplomats in Brussels, no doubt consulting their playbook' Why would hte EU wish to receive a state that oppresses half its population? Explain. Kurds, Armenians and Alevi whose leaders were murdered in a hotel a few years back are systematically oppressed. We are talking about a country that has no respect for fundamental rights.
3. What have they done for the world lately? Well not as much as we could. a few eminent philosophers in France, (CAstoriades and Papaioannou) Germany (Kondylis) and two Nobel prizes in literature. Plus beating the Italians that horrible winter of 1940-1 when other European nations were surrendering to nazi postmen.
4. 'resting on 2,000 year old laurels is a stale act' actually you are wrong again. We are talking about 550 years. Ever heard of the Eastern Roman Empire? IT WAS GREEK! Have you ever been told that Greeks like Lascaris, Halkokondylis, Theodorus of Gaza and others were the powerhouses of the Italian Renaissance?
5a. 'possibly steal enough money from German taxpayers to save the Greek government from default' DO you even know what is worse than Greece staying in the eurozone? Greece defaulting. E317 bn will go up in smoke. You do the math. You should be good at it. Germany is lending up money that it is returned in the form of loan re-payment.
5b. Have you ever been told about the obligatory loan of 1942-3 to Germany? It amounts to 74 bn or so. If repaid then the debt could become serviceable again. This is NOT to say that reform is not needed.
6. 'The nasty civil war between the Greek Communist Party (the KKE) and government forces backed by Britain and the U.S.'
Again your historical knowledge fails you. The communists had been reinforced by the Allies during the war. By your new country Mr Frezza. Had it not been for Allied help to the communists the Civil war would never have happened. After the war it became obvious that the KKE had become too strong.
7. They've been pining for it for years, exhibiting a level of anti-capitalist vitriol unmatched in any developed country.
Well as I have mentioned already our first experience of modern capitalism was borrowing at usurious interest of 100% and more. Furthermore you are historically wrong. Again!! Anti-communist forces have always been stronger. Have you ever been told that Venizelos to protect the country made communism an offence with increased criminal liability? Ever been told that Metaxas became extremely popular? What makes you believe we are somehow interested in communism? Ever been told that Greek aversion to the west was partly caused by the civil war for the scale of which the Allies are responsible?
8. 'And they have all the trappings of a modern Western nation, making them an uncompromised test bed for Marxist theories'.
You obviously have not read Marx. According to him the revolution would start in a proper western nation where production would suffice to uphold the revolution. Not in a quasi-western nation. Please spare some time to read the people you are referring to.
9. Greece was brought back from the brink by massive western intervention as well as a Churchillian side deal
Oh how kind of them! They needed our crucial bases and had ot make sure USSR does not have any ports in the Mediterranean and we should be grateful to them for looking after their own interests? Bizarre and nonsensical.
I will have to paraphrase the advice that Petronius supposedly gave to Nero: Please do not comment on anything that touches on history; you are neither qualified nor knowledgeable. Go to you communications columns and make your comments on mundane issues there.
The question is what have Greek-Americans done for the world ever! You put too much emphasis on work, as if you still have the slave mentality installed into your ancestors by the Ottomans. We know how much Americans, and especially people like you work. We can tell you that you are there precisely because you do not like work. And since you asked the Greeks to take a good look at themselves, let me ask you to take a good look at your adopted country. What exactly do you like about it? The trillions of debt, the high crime, the rundown infrastructure and housing, the polluted water, the genetically altered food, the brainless entertainment, the brainwashing TV news, the highest prison population in the world, the corrupt po;ice and judges, the surveillance systems, the humiliating treatment of women at airports, the insecurity you feel traveling around the world, or perhaps the kick ass attitude of the military? I could go on and on comparing Greeks with Greek Americans, but why punish poor people for the stupidity of a few.
For your information, Greece is not the only country in trouble because of the unscrupulous ways of bankers and speculators. For the time being I must tell you only this. Keep the ignorant comments to yourself. "People who live in glass houses don't throw stones…." One more thing, consider changing your profession. You can be nasty all you want, but you will never be objective.