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Tim Worstall, Contributor
I write about business and technology.
As those with memories stretching back a couple of decades will recall the various forms of computer malware, the viruses, trojans and the like, were things that affected Microsoft Windows users. Mac users, those using Apple's integrated systems, could just laugh and giggle at those poor fools who were using the wrong equipment. Well, no longer:
Apple believes the hackers who penetrated its machines were the same group that Facebook announced Friday had gained access to a number of its employees' computers. Those Facebook attackers gained access to their targets' machines using an infected developer's website that exploited a vulnerability in Java; Apple says the same trick was used to access its employees' machines.
I'm sorry but I do find that amusing, that it was internal Apple computers that got infected. Perhaps I shouldn't but I do.
Now yes, we can say that this is only one example, that it's been cleaned up already (a patch of the Java vulnerability has already been issued) and so on. But it brings us back to a long running point of mine. Why is it that Apple's machines weren't getting attacked? There are two possible explanations. The first is that the system is vastly more secure and doesn't have enough holes in it for an attack to work. People kept trying but only very occasionally did they succeed as above. The other is that Macs were simply not a large enough part of the overall computing ecosystem for it to be worth targeting them. If it is that second reason then with the growth in popularity of the two Apple architectures the bad guys are going to see that it's worth trying to create viruses for those architectures: thus we'll see an increase in them.
As it happens my own view is that it is partially explanation one but only partially. Yes, I do think that MAC OS and iOS are more secure than Windows was, certainly, quite possibly more secure than it is. What makes me think that Apple has a serious problem about computer malware is that I think that much more of it is to do with explanation two. That the malware authors have only just realised that there are enough Macs and iPhones out there to make them worth attacking. And that they will find (some at least) vulnerabilities to exploit. And that's what Apple's problem is: we're only just at the beginning of the attempts to crack Apple's computers.
Yes, I'm sure that Apple is more secure than many to most other software systems. But I'm equally certain that the criminals aren't going to give up given the size of the population they can aim at now. No, I don't think it will get as bad as it did with Windows for a time: but it could at the very least get very boring and annoying having to fight off such malware attacks on systems that have traditionally been free of them. And the seriousness of Apple's problem is that they're not, as yet at least, used to dealing with this particular problem. Quite apart from anything else there isn't the ecosystem of anti-virus software writers as there is for Windows.
Also on Forbes:
There is AVG and Avast for Macs – as there is for PC's. I would suggest Apple users install one of them. We always had antivirus software installed on computers where I worked in government and the large multinational I worked for – back in 1989.
I find AVG the best (less intrusive).
The best malware scanner software that I've used, and the one that I recommend to other Mac users, is ClamXav.
ClamXav does an excellent job at scanning, definitions are always being updated quickly, it has a minimal impact on computer resources (unlike other software apps that are resource hogs), it has a simple interface, and best of all.. is that it's free!
I think your article, though well written and informative, is narrow in scope. First off, I think it's wrong to say that Apple and MacOS are actually being attacked. It's actually Java. Java is known for a massive amount of vulnerabilities and any system, Unix, Linux, Mac or Windows, which runs Java is susceptible to these vulnerabilities. Apple has even gone as far as to remove it from their OS saying 'If you want it, go download it directly, but hey, you're putting yourself at risk'. My understanding of these most recent attack is that it focused on Snow Leopard release, not Lion (which contains ADR, causing any potential infection to be trapped in RAM and unable to affect any other parts of the system). I get the feeling you know all this, but I don't feel you've portrayed it to your audience in this article. Why are Macs, Unix and Linux all more secure? Because they were built with system vs user level security directly into the OS while Windows only later adopted User and Service based permission rights (and administered it poorly might I ad). All in all, Macs will be target more heavily in the future, but the fact remains a system without Java is more secure. You would have to download the virus, run its installer and type in your password to become infected. If it makes it that far, then the system contains the malicious code and it can't spread to any other programs or computers on the network (in the case of Lion). Isn't that just smart?
The system is only as secure as it's weakest link. Java lies in the system, so thus the system (Apple computers) can get compromised. Not trying to point fingers, but the problem was that Apple kept boasting they were "immune" and sold that to uninformed consumers and in fact they are not "immune".
Solid reasoning. Let's say I just went out and bought a Mac. Then, I looked and installed for the most buggy beta version of software X. Then, after getting hacked, I dismissed the solidity of Unix-like softwares thinking "Up yours, Apple! Seems I'm not immune to vulnerabilities opened upon using after-market software I installed of my own volition."
Because they are popular now, the only reason they are being attacked. Also, Apple only sent out the update to consumers because of the risk it may have been on other computers, but they announced it was an internal attack that also attacked many large companies like Coca-Cola and EMC(a securities division for god's sake). I'd also like to think it's somewhat of a PR move for Apple to release something letting everyone know they have it under control. Do I think Apple computers are inviolable? No, but I do think they are less risky, and I also think that they are loosing the "Can't get a virus on a Mac" ideology that people once had.
What a moronic article from Tim Worstall!
Tim, you apparently don't realize that the intrusion was malware exploiting a hole in Oracle's Java… NOT in Apple's OS X!!!
In fact there was no intrusion into OS X, and no data was stolen!
There were only a few Macs (out of thousands) at Apple that were affected, because they were the only ones that had Java RT installed.
In 2007 Steve Jobs railed against Java because of its many vulnerabilities. And it's why Apple in 2010 started shipping computers without Java plug-ins installed.
And even though Java is Oracle's product… NOT Apple's… Apple quickly released a fix for the Java plug-in.
Those are the facts!
So there are two possibilities, Tim:
1) Either you were totally unaware of this common knowledge when you wrote this inaccurate article, or…
2) You were aware of these facts, but chose to write a deceptive article
Either way, it does not reflect well on your trustworthiness as a technical writer.
Mr. Worstall, your claim that malware authors have only now realized there are enough iOS devices to make them a valuable target to attack is laughable. If anything, Apple's dominance in the mobile device field has lessened due to Android in the past year or two. Still, there is no question that iOS has been worth attacking for at least the past 3 or so years. The lack of massive penetrations is a sign that iOS has strong security, not security through obscurity.
Why would you name the Title of this article "Yes, Apple Really Does Have A Serious Problem With Computer Viruses And Malware" When they don't have a serious problem?
This is like saying "Homes in Nashville in serious danger of break-ins!" When that never happens!
That's a pretty disingenuous headline. The latest hack was with Java, not the Mac operating system.
It was a JAVA vulnerability and NOT OS X.
The only safe computer is one that is completely disconnected and turned off.
But with that said, I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't even offer a perfunctory nod to the inherently safer model of a permissions-based system, which has traditionally been one the core strengths of the Mac OS. Sure, the 'security through obscurity' model has been valid for years and is now fading as a protection(as you point out), but it's also a lot harder to write code for the Mac OS, which pretty much kicks the script kiddies and Visual Basic toolkitters out of the playground. Correct me if I'm wrong, but virtually ALL sucessful drive-bys of the Mac OS – not counting the Black Hat hacks, which are essentially a laboratory proof-of-concept played out under ideal conditions – have exploited a vulnerability in a subsystem (such as the increasingly long in the tooth and pointless Java) rather than the OS itself. Granted, Apple has been HUGELY complacent, but the fact remains that in the real world, "typical" (read: non-geeky, tech-savvy) users are far more likely to become infected on a non-Mac system. Dismiss me as a Mac apologist if you will, but up to this point, the record is clear.
And just to be petty, "MAC" is Media Access Control, and "Mac" is the computer. But you knew that, and you're just trolling, right?
Mr. Worstall,
Your credibility in this article is in doubt when the name of the OS you are referring to is flawed. The OS that has been running on Apple's desktop/laptop hardware, for a good number of years now, is OS X, not MAC OS as you insist.
The title of the article is linkbait.
The target demographic is novice computer users who will use the information when they or their friends are looking for their next computer.
The TRUTH is… MacOS – by it's design, and market share – is 99% less likely to give a user problems with malware than a Windows-based PC. The 1% is user actions that cannot be coded against.
For disclosure:
- When my WindowsNT beta-testing disks were shipped to me from Microsoft, they arrived in a shoebox.
- I've got Windows, Linux, Mac, and XBMC machines in my house. I have no brand loyalty. Just saying this so the fanboys don't try to accuse me of drinking the kool-aid.
Good job on the yellow journalism! I find it amusing that you used a quote from another journalist's headline stating that apple's computers were "targeted". That really is comical considering the java exploit is not limited to mac and does affect windows based machines. On top of it not being limited to macs, the java exploit is certainly not targeting anyone. The infections have been indiscriminately lobbed at anyone visiting a compromised website. Your article is smug, vindictive rubbish. Glad you had a chance to snub your nose at all those apple fans who lauded their inability to get viruses, even if it is garbage reporting with little to no research supporting sensationalist headlines.
Most of this has been said before but with each new burst of iDevice sales, the dangers detailed here get closer and closer to being reality. The other concern (and I am using a broad, sweeping brush here) is that the "aveage" iOS and OS user is NOT a techno-nerd adept at managing digital security. As the author said, they haven't had to. A large part of the appeal of Apple products is you don't HAVE to be a techno-nerd to enjoy them and their advanced features. Oddly enough, that could end up being a liability to the user base in the long run.
Sure there is no shortage of non-savvy Windows users out there and if we play the numbers game there are certainly more than there are in the Apple world. But also playing the numbers game, there are probably a high number of really smart and clever geeks capable of combating malicious code (also noted in the article).
I use an Android phone. My wife has an iPhone. I have been virus/malware free for 2+ years on my phone (I am running Lookout) and in a hear and half of owning a Windows 7 laptop, have had maybe two pieces of malware on my machine (one was my own fault for installing something I should not have).
I will dread the day my wife's phone gets a virus, if that day ever comes.
"I will dread the day my wife's phone [an iPhone] gets a virus, if that day ever comes."
You really should be worried about yourself, if you are using an Android phone… your wife's iPhone is exceedingly more secure than Android!
Last summer net-security.org reported that over the three months in Q2 2012, over 14,900 new malicious programs targeting Android were added to Kaspersky Lab's database.
Nearly half (49 per cent) of these malicious files targeting Android devices were multi-functional Trojans that steal data from telephones (contact names, email addresses, telephone numbers, etc.), and are also capable of downloading additional modules from servers run by malicious users.
On the other hand, iOS has been free of malware (except for one single app that was quickly removed from Apple's App Store).
Any rational person comparing the two operating systems and their track record of malware, would obviously know which one was secure and which one was riddled with malware.
This quote is amusing: "As it happens my own view is that it is partially explanation one but only partially. Yes, I do think that MAC OS and iOS are more secure than Windows was, certainly, quite possibly more secure than it is."
Please check the facts before you write — in this hacking competition – "Pwn2Own" MacOS was not the best in terms of security (it was not the worst either).
Actually, your assertions show a great lack of understanding. You lack an understanding of the difference between a virus, a trojan, and a hack.
All that anyone has ever claimed is that Apple thwarted viruses. Trojans were always a known — but you have to actually install them yourself, they are not self-installing like a virus, so they are easy to avoid. Hacks were considered much more difficult on Mac, but nonetheless possible, and had even been proved in years gone by (again, using Java). Of course, if Java has a hole in it, and Mac incorporates Java in its browsers, then the hole is on Mac too. Still, that is not a hole for a virus, but for a hack.
While the reporting on this latest incident at Apple and others is poorly worded, it says it was a hack into the system for the purpose of installing malware, not a virus that self-installed, as is common with Windows. So, it is not indicating any difference in security for a Mac than has ever been asserted. Yes, you can argue that there isn't a big difference between whether it self-installed or a hacker installs it, you still end up with malware. On the other hand, if it has to be done by a hacker, you can expect a gazillion fewer computers infected because the hacker has to do it rather than the malware taking on a life of its own and circumnavigating the Earth.
Of course, you also fail to even know that in fact, the first Mac virus did come out last year. It did not get the headlines one would expect, but it did happen. It started as a trojan, which the computer user would have to install so it is easy to avoid. But it later morphed into being an outright virus that installed itself. That is what you should have written your story about, not this hack, which is a possibility that has never been denied about Mac, although might be much more difficult to do.
Tim, although Trojans and viruses are both forms of malware, they are not the same (you should know this!).
A Trojan requires effort from the admin/user to install, and therefore depends on the user being tricked into installing malware on their own computer (no operating system can overcome user stupidity). On the other hand, viruses are MUCH more dangerous since they can install without a user's knowledge or involvement.
There have been tens of thousands of viruses for Windows, but there have been ZERO viruses for OS X and iOS.
Your statement that "the first Mac virus did come out last year" is false.
Again, I'm not sure if you make these untrue statements because you do not have this basic knowledge, or if you are making these false statements being knowingly deceptive.
Another major difference between viruses and Trojans, is that viruses are self-replicating and will spread to all connected computers.
Here are some definitions of "computer virus" from various sources:
"A computer virus is a computer program that can replicate itself and spread from one computer to another. The term "virus" is also commonly, but erroneously, used to refer to other types of malware, including but not limited to adware and spyware programs that do not have a reproductive ability."
"A computer virus is a program or piece of code that is loaded onto your computer without your knowledge and runs against your wishes. Viruses can also replicate themselves."
"By definition, a virus program is able to replicate itself. This means that the virus multiplies on a computer by making copies of itself. This replication is intentional; it is part of the virus program. In most cases, if a file that contains virus is executed or copied onto another computer, then that computer will also be "infected" by the same virus."
The question for many hackers is whether or not Apple users are savvy enough deal with viruses.
The answer to your question is "yes".
Since many Mac users also run Windows on their computers, they are well aware of the need to install anti-virus software into their Windows operating systems.
In the 13 years that OS X has been in use, there have been no Mac viruses, but there have been a handful of Trojans (less than ten).
For any Mac user who decides to disable Gatekeeper (which is on by default) and install applications from untrusted sources, they would be aware that they are opening themselves to installing Trojans on their own computers, and they would be aware that they need to run software to check for Trojans after installations from untrusted sources.
Again, all Mac users are protected from Trojans by default… but if they decide to consciously disable that protection, it is their own decision. But no operating system has ever been devised that can overcome user stupidity.
It's funny, just the other day I was listening to my local sports talk radio and they were saying that one of the computers there at the station had been infected with the FBI virus and the host and co-host along with a slew of callers and emailers bragging about how there mac and apple products can't and haven't been hacked or received viruses. I wanted so bad to call and say that one of the primary reasons is that doesn't have the numbers yet. Meaning hacks and viruses usually want the largest exposure. Until apple gets the share of pc and businesses using microsoft it's not worth it. Would you rather infect thousands or hundreds of thousands. Wake up apple snobs, your number is being called.
Currently there are between 100 Million and 200 Million Macs in use around the world. That may seem like a "tiny" number to you, but I'm sure it doesn't seem that way to virus writers.
Windows had its first 1,000 viruses LONG before there were that many Windows PCs in the world.
On top of that, remember that OS X and iOS both have the same operating system core, which means that it would be easy for virus writers to write a virus that would work on both operating systems… they just haven't done it.
So with over 500 Million iOS users PLUS the 100 Million to 200 Million OS X users, we have an audience of about 700 Million users… but you probably think that is too small a number for you too. (rolls eyes)
It seems fairly easy for people to use the vast information available to them to hack Windows. In order for these types of people to do the same on Mac OS X they have to learn a whole new system, slew of commands, and everything else. The sophistication of Mac OS X's Unix side helps keep the system safe as well.
See and actually that's a big FAT NO. Apple is not more secure, the more popular they get the more they will be attacked.
Apple is overpriced, backwards OS junk. The cheapest mac is still half the ram/half the hard drive as the PC counterpart AND $400 more expensive.
$400 more for the cheapest mac for a lot less. I would rather buy that PC with double the ram and double the hard drive space and the same processor and then still have enough money to buy both a Kindle Fire HD and a Google Nexus 7. Just saying..Apple is not worth it.
Oh and I would rather fumble through a windows OS (Windows 8) than a Macs any day. At least with windows you don't need to know hot keys to actually close the programs and it actually communicates with all the business computers in the world (I personally work closely to Apple and thus their horrible computers and all the time people send fractions to me and the stupid mac can't read them, I get a weird symbol instead). In addition to all the headaches of connecting.
There is a very thin line between malicious mischief and criminal enterprise, for example, kids throwing rocks through windows on impulse and your local wise guys shaking down all the neighborhood businesses for protection money.
Applying this concept to Malware, Viruses, Trojans, Adware etc is every bit as simple. Just ask yourself who profits from malicious code? The people who sell the products and services to get rid of it more than likely at a cost of $30 to $60 per incident.
If you work for Symantec-Norton Anti Virus or a similar company and you want some job security, it is in your financial interest to be proficient in producing malicious code and distributing it to the world wide web via any platform available.
It doesn't have a thing to do with which architecture is inherently more stable DOS vs Unix vs Windows vs Macintosh Classic vs Macintosh OSX vs Linux.
The most reliable computers (in terms of malware vulnerability) are ones with the Operating System and Browser built into the firmware, that can be simply restored. A windows computer does not fit that description as with all the software a user may have installed a refresh will typically take over and hour or two. OSX based machines are headed in that direction.
One emerging technology that frees the non power user from this is the Android Set Top. (Such as the Minix Neo) This is a device about half the size of an android phone, you simply plug it into your HDMI TV (it does not come with its own monitor) plug in a powered USB hub, Wireless Keyboard & Mouse and you have an Internet Terminal capable of browsing (with Browser Client set to Desktop)and email. Plug in an external Hard Drive for storage, plug in a wireless e-printer and you have most of the functionality of a PC or Mac based Internet terminal with the added convenience of a 2 minute factory restore.
I have Used the Minix Neo G4 to replace all of my Internet use with the exception of one corporate application I must use Internet Explorer to run.
But moving all of my casual Internet use to a different platform virtually eliminates the possibility of acquiring malware on my Windows 7 Workstation.
If OSX is so secure, then please explain to me why it is almost always the first OS to be compromised at almost every security conference? Apple's OS is absolutely positively not as secure as Windows. To say that it is, is an absolute joke. For the misinformed, please take the time to read the following article that explains it in much greater detail.
Use some logic. If OS X is so much easier to break into than Windows, why have there been no viruses for OS X will there are thousands of Windows viruses?
Is it because all virus writers are masochists who only want to write viruses for the most secure operating system, but not for the least secure one?
Is it because close to 200 million users (up to 700 million users if you include iOS which is also based on OS X) is too "tiny" a number to write for?
The answers to both questions are obviously "No".
Windows had many viruses long before it had that many users. Also the old Classic Mac operating system (1984-2000) which had a tiny amount of users, had several viruses… but OS X (2000-2013) with many more users has had ZERO viruses!
From what I've read about these black-hat events, the "hackers" are given permissions and access to the computers that no one in the real world would have. This is why you may hear about some hacker saying they demonstrated a "Mac virus" at one of these events, no viruses have ever attacked Macs in the real world.
Again, facts are facts:
Zero viruses for the Mac in the 13 years that OS X has been in use, but thousands of viruses for Windows.
Even if you thought that OS X was not MORE vulnerable, but only AS vulnerable as Windows, then logically there SHOULD be at least 10% (or up to 70%) of the number of viruses for Windows… NOT zero viruses for OS X, as it is in reality!
I'm a big Mac fan from way back, but even I realize malware is a problem across all platforms.
Yes, there is malware for MacOS X, there was malware for much earlier versions of the MacOS also. Self-propagating Mac viruses were well-known in 1990′s prior to OS X, with removable media being the usual vector. While the self-replicating virus isn't a popular hacker tool today, malware is out there.
Whether a user downloads a malware payload, clicks on a phishing link, or is victim to a drive-by web site attack, we're all open to attack, no matter what OS. A bomb delivered to my front door is still a bomb and needs to be dealt with.
Are Macs less susceptible to some attacks, yes. But the biggest threats now are Java, Flash, and rogue Javascript in Acrobat PDFs, and those can all easily affect our beloved Macs.
Since weaknesses in those software packages are the major threats and Apple doesn't ship or support those products, users must take some responsibility for security. Heck, Apple even goes out the way now to periodically block some of this software on your computer, much to the chagrin of some users.
Apple is hardening the OS, sandboxing processes, and making it more difficult to install rogue apps, getting more Windows-like in its "are you sure you want to do bad things to your computer" alerts.
I live without Java and Flash a good part of my day, not everyone is willing to do that. So download one of the many free or pay-for anti-virus/malware tools for Mac. The Mac anti-malware "ecosystem" includes solutions from: Avast!, Sophos, Avira, BitDefender, ClamXav, Comodo, F-Secure, Kaspersky, Panda, Trend Micro, Intego, Norton, and McAfee. Pretty good selection for a lightly-attacked platform.
While you do bring out some good points Mr. Worstall, I do still "laugh and giggle" at my Windows counterparts –100,000 malware threats historically for Windows vs 25 or so for MacOS X; I can live with those numbers.
Yes they do. I wrote a virus code back 2yrs ago to crash a bank (bank paid me to hack their Apple system) the hacking it took longer than the delivery of the virus. Apples can be hacked, viruses and malware. But the idea is why would someone target 0.1% of the world when 99.9% uses windows
Java is a particularly juicy target because it's on so many platforms, and this is not a Mac-specific attack.
Microsoft is such a popular target because in the early days of the commercial Internet, their systems had terrible security and hence the attack industry was centred on them, and it became an arms race. As Microsoft ramped up security, attackers followed.
Windows in its latest versions is reasonably secure but once you've attracted such a massive investment in attacking you, it tends to stay with you.
You click that big green "Download" button on random websites , "iLivid" your PC, and you get like a billion viruses.
The same thing is true for macs. This same software is available on mac and is equally damaging. It is definitely just a misconception that macs don't get a virus.
"Yes, Apple Really Does Have A Serious Problem With Computer Viruses And Malware"
This is the usual garbage.
Malware, yes, phishing is malware. Conning users into installing jailbreaks is malware.
But viruses? You haven't given one single example of a virus that is a problem on the Mac.
So how can you possibly justify a title that says "Yes, Apple Really Does Have A Serious Problem With Computer Viruses …"
Tim Worstall really does have a serious problem with telling the truth.
I did have doubts about this…And I will agree with @Jacqui…trojans and viruses are different… luckily that hasn't affected my IOS since i had quickheal antivirys installed….
Initially I was skeptical about installing an anti-virus. After all, its a MAC we're talking about. But my wife advised (nagged as she is a windows user) me to install it.
Good decision I must say. Don't have to bother about virus, trojans, worms or even hacks!…
This article is the very definition of modern journalism. Bad. No facts, no figures, just a whole bunch of "I Think"s…
"I do think that MAC OS"
"I think that much more of it"
" No, I don't think it will get"
Here's what " I" think: If Mr. Worstall could think, he would not have written this article.
You are a strong writer, but obviously do not actually work in computers. You might work on them, writing your articles, but you do not have a firm understanding of the internals of the systems you write about.
Unlike most, I will simply state that you should take some time to understand the systems you write about in the article. I repair many types of systems for a living. They range from POS systems to the common server. I think it is funny that those that choose Windows calls me in to repair systems many times more than any other system. (Not just viruses, but corrupted systems as well).
Your next response will be about the quantity of Windows machines in comparison to other systems, but this is not true in the server world. Linux is everywhere, and running on everything right down to the small NAS servers deployed in personal homes. These systems run without errors for many years at a time. They do so because of the inherit security built in.
Once you compromise the security with junk software, you compromise the system: Not the system makers. I have never had a virus on my Linux machine. I have never had a virus on my OS X machine. I have never had a virus on a non-jaillbroken iPhone. I have had many viruses on my Windows machine though.
Why do I get more viruses on Windows? This is in part because I do not run anti-virus. It is a dedicated system that funds many programs that act like viruses and cause many problems when anti-virus software is deployed. I do keep the system patched and completely up to date wight he newest software versions. Now you will probably blame me for the lack of anti-virus software, but I don't need it on my other machines to do the things I do. I amazes me that Windows expects me to dedicate a certain amount of my resources to run anti-virus software to make up for their lack of programming and security skills.
Back in the days of boot sector virus spread by floppy disks, an opportunity was (AFAIK) never exploited to use Macintosh computers as vectors to spread them on PCs.
The MS-DOS disk compatibility software could have been modified by malware to automatically write a boot sector virus to any DOS formatted floppy disk inserted into the Mac's floppy drive. Even more clever would have been hacking it to look for an already infected boot sector, copy it then write it to all subsequent disks.
The user wouldn't be aware of anything odd happening because the first thing the Mac always did to any unprotected floppy was write a few folders and files for storing desktop and resource fork data, without asking the user for permission. Including a write to sector 0 would go un-noticed.
With such a hack the Mac would become a sort of Typhoid Mary for PC viruses.


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Ford Escape Brake Problems
Funny that they said "all four rotors", when Escapes only have two rotors. The rear brakes are drum brakes, so only the front wheels have rotors..
You should sue your dealeship in small claims court (I hope you got a written estimate on this, so you can take them to court).
I am really surprised that more people don't take ignorant, crooked dealerships to court..
I believe that your problem is called "ignorant service people"..It is quite common these day's. Both wheel bearings going bad at 43,000 miles would be almost impossible on that vehicle ( I have over 200,000 and have never replaced a bearing)..The issue, for most people,is finding competent service people who actually know how to diagnose a problem properly. Good luck with finding someone, because only one out of ten mechanics are any good...The remaining? Well, we called them 'butchers'!
disneychick8 Posts: 1At 68,000 miles, I lost my brakes this morning in my 2006 Ford Escape. The mechanic said one brake line broke and two more were leaking. (At 38,000 miles, I had to buy a new engine because the #6 piston fell apart in the engine and at 50,000 miles, I had to replace the Throttle Body because the gas pedal was sticking) After replacing the brake lines today, I hope there is nothing left to fall apart in this vehicle as I have had to replace everything else.
mnovy Posts: 1I took my car to be checked. They told me the problem is the wheel bearing on the front right tire. My concern is that I have to drive to Indianapolis on Sunday, what it'll be about two hours drive, and I don't want to get a bigger problem with the brakes. Is it safe for me to drive? And is it really what the problem could be? The light came on right after I had to change a flat right back tire about a month ago.
Thank you.
Now, I could be wrong, but the wheel bearing shouldn't turn on the ABS light. Usually that is an indicator that the ABS module is failing. You'll still have normal brakes, but if you were to go into a skid, you would not get the modulation the car is programmed with to pull you out of the skid, you'd be on your own to do that. Usually not a crisis right away. If a wheel bearing is failing, you should get a noise and a grind from that wheel, not a light.
I noted a continual grunt just before stopping. Lemon Aid guide suggests its the brakes. I am thinking its to do with the suspension. Of course local ford dealer never heard of the problem. You would think for a $20,000 + piece of machinery, you would not have these problem. Parts sourced globally (read: cheap), BUT assembled with pride in Kansas.
First of all, that's not a $20,000+ piece of machinery anymore, it's about a $6,000 car now, and probably acting like it. If you're driving a car old enough to vote, but you want it to perform as if it's brand new, you're not reasonable. No 6 year old car doesn't have some issues, that's not Ford's fault that it's old. And I agree, it's the brakes, not the suspension. Replace them. By the way, that's not Ford's problem either. If you have so little regard for the car, sell it, but good luck.
rwiseman1 Posts: 3My 2010 4x4 Escape has the ABS "light on" problem reaccurring again occassionally. It now has 42K miles on it. Dealership claimed it stemmed from battery being low and replaced it last year and that really seemed to take care of the light coming on all the time problem. Hate to think I have to replace the battery every year to elimate an annoying light? Also hate to think that I may just think that's what the problem is when it's really something else. I live an an area that experiences adverse winter weather conditions and require a 4 wheel drive vehicle to even get in and out of my driveway in such. From other cars, including a Ford F150, I've owned, I am very familiar with what it feels like when the ABS actually engages and I have never, ever felt as if the ABS has really engaged on this vehicle even though I've seen that light on dozens and dozens of times.
I also, still randomly encounter the no brake situation...where the pedal just seems totally hard with absolutely no give and, therefore, does not properly engage. For me, 99% of the time, this occurs when the engine is cold, and more so when the weather seems to be damp outside. I've learned to recognize the telltale sign of engine "shutter" when I put the vehicle in gear and know to immediately pump my brake pedal good to activate them before I back out of my garage in the morning. I can physically feel them finally "give" and know at that point I'm good to go. The Ford dealership has kept this vehicle for days at a time but claims to have never replicated that sensation. Course it might of helped if they had actually put it in gear and moved it more than 2/10 of a mile in all the days it was in their possession...
gwatters Posts: 1I love my 2008 Escape that has 4 wheel drive as needed. It's a 6 cylinder - NOT hybrid. It has 125,000 miles on it plus. The only problem I have had with it is a strange thing with the brakes. My daughter swears there has been something wrong with it since day one - you put the brakes on and the pedal goes down a bit before engaging. Ford says there is nothing wrong - two dealers, one in PA and one in AZ have told me that over the 4 years I've owned it. It is NOT the ABS engaging, by the way. I know what that is. Yesterday a.m. I went to stop from about 35 mph and the pedal went to the floor before engaging. I have new brakes on the front, and don't need new brakes on the back. I then turned into the gas station, and it did it again, but it did stop. I backed out to take the car home and exchange it for my husband's truck to drive to work, and the brakes were fine. They have been fine since then. I ended up driving it to work - 40 miles each way - no problems. I have no idea what to do with the darn thing. I will get it checked for a leak today, but other than that, what???
downstevedown Posts: 1Once had a '97 Contour SE where the ABS light would come on, especially if the ABS or the traction control had engaged 3 or 4 times over a short period of time in bad weather. Dealer said it was ultimately a terminal getting an intermittent short by rain/snow/slush splashing against it, and that after a few times, it would engage the ABS warning light - pulling over and restarting the car would turn off the light. They said that they fixed it by applying lithium grease to the terminal and re-capping it. Problem never recurred after that
I'm not at all saying that this is your problem but when I read it I thought about intermittent events that might cause the ABS warning to engage...
salarae61080 Posts: 2Mine is a 2004, owned since 2003-mileage of approximately 134k. Last night driving home from work, I was attempting to break quickly, as a car pulled out in front of me. My break pedal responded as normal for about the first 2-3 seconds, felt what seemed like a wheel lock up&then my pedal went completely to the floor, with no break response what-so-ever! I grabbed the emergency break&avoided the collision. Got to a parking lot&popped the hood. Reservoir full-couldn't identify any leaks. Limped the car home (5 minute drive). Reservoir was completely empty&fluid visible on inside right front tire. When I spoke to a mech. He said it shouldn't have happened that quickly&immediately...? Thank God it didn't happen 3 minutes earlier, or I'd have been on the freeway going 65MPH....WTH?
joe483 Posts: 12005 escape 125,000. miles stoped at gas station put fuel in, start, put foot on brake pedal to put in drive, all the way to floor--left front flex line blew, i checked right side line which was ready to go at same place, wow.
I replaced both lines and am writing this only to worn anybody that has this vehicle to please check the lines, they are only less then 20.00 ea, ford seems unaware of this huge problem. march 25 2013
Same problem a 2005 Ford Escape, my daughter had a brake job at Sears less than 11 months ago and this week end her brakes completely failed while backing out of the garage. The passenger side brake line was deeply cracked in 4 place and would spurt fluid like a severed artery when applying the brake. Drivers side was deeply cracked in the exact same spots just not leaking, 'yet'. There is no way that the Sears mechanic did not see these cracks when they replaced the rotors. And Ford should be held liable for not fixing this problem -- that line is a critical safety component and should be made of at least braided steel hose.
ttoula Posts: 1My 2003 Ford Escape, 90,000 miles, brakes normally until below 5 mph. Below this speed the ABS "chatters" twice before the vechile comes to a complete stop. This occurrs at low braking pressure and on dry pavement. When I remove the ABS 60 amp fuse from under the hood, the problem goes away, but of course I then have no ABS protection. Does anyone have a solution? TT


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July 30, 2014
The WKU Campus Safety Task Force is charged with examining housing policies to see if changes need to be made.
The panel includes parents, students and Bowling Green Police Chief Bill Waltrip.
WKU President Dr. Gary Ransdell expects to hear recommendations from the task force by mid-summer.


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News and Events
7 August 2013
Today the Thai Clinical Trials Registy (TCTR) became a member of the Primary Registry Network of ICTRP. TCTR is also becoming a data provider and trials registered with TCTR will be added to the ICTRP database in early September 2013. This addition promotes research transparency and ensures the registration of all clinical trials conducted in Thailand.
26 March 2012
Today the EU Clinical Trials Register (EU-CTR) became a data provider to ICTRP Search Portal. This addition provides wider access to the information contained in ICTRP and contributes to the dissemination of information related to authorised clinical trials for use by the scientific community and the public.
16 September 2011
It is now possible to download results of the search into XML. This is an initial implementation and will be followed by future versions.
14 September 2011
Today the EU Clinical Trials Register (EU-CTR) became a member of the Primary Registry Network of ICTRP. It is hoped that the EU-CTR will become a data provider before the end of 2011.
5th April 2011
The first Primary Registry including trials in both Spanish and English was announced today with the addition of the Cuban Public Registry of Clinical Trials / Registro Público Cubano de Ensayos Clínicos (RPCEC) to the WHO Registry Network.
29 June 2010
Today the Clinical Research Information Service (CRiS) of the Republic of Korea has become a data provider to the ICTRP Search Portal. This means you can now find trials registered in their registry by searching the ICTRP Search Portal.
- Access the ICTRP Search Portal
- Learn more about Data Providers
- View the profile of the Clinical Research Information Service (CRiS), Republic of Korea
21 June 2010
Today the United Kingdom's National Health Service (NHS) became the first partner to use the ICTRP Web Service to display clinical trial search results from the ICTRP database on its website. They have developed a main clinical trials search page as well as condition specific pages. For example, if you are looking up information on asthma, there is a page that automatically shows a listing of clinical trials from the ICTRP database related to this condition. Once on this page, the search can also be further refined. Further condition specific pages can be found under the link "Health A-Z" on their site.
26 May 2010
The Clinical Research Information Service (CRiS) of the Republic of Korea has become the latest registry to join the list of Primary Registries in the WHO Registry Network. This means that CRiS conforms to WHO registry criteria and that registering trials with CRiS satisfies the trial registration policies of many medical journals.
- Registry Profile of the Clinical Research Information Service
- Press Release of the Ministry of Health and Welfare, Republic of Korea (in Korean)
24 May 2010
You can now search the ICTRP Search Portal on your phone. The address to type into your internet browser is:
You can also find this link on the normal homepage of the Search Portal.
27-28 April 2010
A meeting to discuss a potential Clinical Trials Registry Network for Latin America and the Caribbean (LAC) was held in Washington DC, 27-28 April 2010. The overall aim was to discuss the potential development of a cooperative network of interoperable national and regional clinical trials registries in the region. Specific aims were:
- To share the current state of development of the ICTRP and the participation of LAC
- To develop a strategy for achieving clinical trial registration in LAC, including:
- A strategy for developing a cooperative network of primary and partner registries meeting WHO criteria and a single regional registration platform
- A strategy for developing common and interoperable software platform
- Sharing the experience of LAC and other regions developing strategies for clinical trial registration
- Identifying key partners and potential advisers to the implementation
23 February 2010
The Japan Primary Registries Network (JPRN) is now a data provider of the ICTRP Search Portal. The JPRN is hosted by the National Institute of Public Health, Japan and is composed of 3 registries with records in English and Japanese:
- Japan Pharmaceutical Information Center - Clinical Trials Information (JapicCTI)
- Japan Medical Association - Center for Clinical Trials (JMACCT)
- University Hospital Medical Information Network (UMIN)
- Access the ICTRP Search Portal
- Learn more about Data Providers
- View the Japan Primary Registries Network profile
12-13 February 2010
The first annual meeting of the Middle East Clinical Research Association (MECRA) was held in Beirut, Lebanon 12-13 February 2010, starting with a session dedicated to registering clinical trials in the Middle East. The meeting was opened by Dr. Mohamad Jawad Khalifeh, Minister of Health, Lebanon and was followed by presentations by the ICTRP and the Iranian Registry of Clinical Trials.


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Product Recall: Voluntary recall of 260 cases of Velveeta Original Pasteurized Recipe Cheese Products. Click Here.
18 SKUs of Knudsen Cottage Cheese, 9 SKUs of Breakstone's Cottage Cheese, 5 SKUs of Simply Kraft Cottage Cheese and 2 SKUs of Daily Chef Cottage Cheese. Click Here.
HEAT grill to medium heat.
GRILL franks 7 to 9 min. or until heated through, turning occasionally.
MEANWHILE, heat chili as directed on can.
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Notable QuotablesMocking IRS Scandal: 'Any Actual Real Victims?'
On MSNBC, former ABC News political director Mark Halperin blurted the truth about the media's neglect of the IRS scandal: "[Under] a Republican administration, this story would be a national obsession." But two days later, NBC's Chuck Todd suggested it was all a Republican ploy: "Are there any actual real victims?"
Previously: Begging Hillary to Run: 'If Not You, Who?'
And: The Best Notable Quotables of 2013: The 26th Annual Awards for the Year's Worst Reporting
Watch the videos: Highlights from the MRC's 2013 Gala & DisHonors Awards
Mark your calendars! The MRC Gala, featuring the DisHonors Awards, will be held September 25, 2014. Click here for more information.
Latest Research
Media Reality Check: Networks Let Obama Escape Blame for Yet Another Crisis of His Making
Media Reality Check: Networks Refuse to Report Obama Role in Humanitarian Border Crisis
Media Reality Check: In a Month, TV News Gives Less Airtime to VA Scandal than NJ "Bridgegate" Received in Four Days
Special Report: Hispanic Media in the Balance: How Univision and Telemundo News Coverage Favors Liberals, and What Needs to Be Done to Correct It
Media Bias 101: What Journalists Really Think -- and What the Public Thinks About Them (Updated May 2014)
Revolving Door: Two New MSNBC Hosts Bring News Media-Obama Count to 30


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Creative director and co-founder of Salomé Cabaret Burlesque Revue, Siren Santina represented the U.S. in this year's World Burlesque Games, held May 7-13 in London.
How'd you do?
I didn't place this year, but I received a great deal of positive feedback from the audience and my competitors. The competition was really tough! There were so many talented performers in attendance. It was very interesting to see the aesthetic variances—you could see how the performers' cultures influenced their performances.
Is it harder for you to concentrate than most since you're singing?
It is a little more difficult to combine an additional talent with my burlesque performance. In addition to concentrating on choreography and costume, I'm also thinking about lyrics, tone, and sound. It's a lot to juggle at one time, but it's so much fun!
Is Siren the name on your KUB bill and stuff, or just for performance?
No. I do sometimes get junk mail addressed to Siren, but everything else comes to my "daytime name."
Who taught you burlesque?
I was originally self-taught, as there weren't classes for this available when I first started. I have since taken workshops and classes from burlesque legends all over the country. There is even an annual convention in Seattle each year specifically for burlesque students.
Do you teach burlesque around here?
We do! Salomé Cabaret Burlesque Academy, and actually our new semester is starting soon.
You studied voice at the University of Tennessee. Do your music professors know you're doing this?
I'm not sure if my UT professors know what I'm doing now, but I don't think they'd be surprised. I was a bit famous for being the weirdo in the opera and choral groups and this is no doubt a "different" way to use my talents.
Where do you get your costumes? Or are they outfits?
They are costumes and all of them are handmade by myself or my mother. And before you ask, yes my mother knows what they are used for. She is my biggest cheerleader and loves being part of the creative process. Some of my best acts were her ideas. She may prefer to see me singing traditional music, but she loves watching me perform regardless of what I am doing. She has been known to disturb performances with screams of "That's my daughter!"
Did anyone in London say something funny to you about being from the South?
The oddest comment I got about Tennessee was this: A gentleman asked me where in Texas Tennessee was located.
What next?
I rock Knoxville and regional festivals, until the next international opportunity arises!
For more information on burlesque classes: salomecabaret.com
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Mineral Wells Index
By CHRIS AGEE
About 400 individuals packed the First Christian Church food pantry Saturday for a Christmas party geared toward children.
"The whole town helped us get stuffed animals and we had candy and all kinds of neat race cars," said food pantry director Genie Quincy.
She said volunteers at the church-based charity, which currently serves about 600 families each month, saw a dramatic increase in turnout for its most recent event.
"We had a small Christmas party for the children after Christmas last year and there were only about 80 [attendees]," she explained.
Though they served far more clients than last year, Quincy said volunteers received significant assistance from those in the community.
"Jim Crawford made 15 picnic tables for children and we had a drawing for those," she said. "We had all these big stuffed animals they drew for."
Collecting enough toys was a group effort, too, she added.
She said several individuals stepped up to help gather enough stuffed animals for the invited children.
While one volunteer was searching garage sales Saturday morning, Quincy said, "One man who had some in his barn that were Christmas animals said, 'I just want to donate them.'"
When others in the community heard about the need, she said, "people were showing up at the door" with donations.
"The community in Mineral Wells is so wonderful the way everybody works together," she said. "We had lunch, we had presents and it was good."
After the party, she said a surplus of gifts remained, thanks to the generosity of local residents.
"The bags of presents we had left over we took to the Catholic Daughters because they have 80 foster children," she explained.
Though Quincy spent most of her time Saturday among party guests, she said a Christmas celebration of a different sort took place the same day on the church's lawn.
"We had a live nativity put on by our youth out in the courtyard," she said, noting the infant daughter of a couple in the church represented the baby Jesus.
In addition to church youth, Quincy said "we had donkeys, sheep and goats."


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Hyundai Santa Fe Paint
santafeltd2011 Posts: 4there is no recall Hyundai is denying fault my 2011 started to peel off just months after buying the truck they blamed me when i had a detailer come to the house once a month they claimed they were washing and waxing it wrong get that BULL SH_T....! Been looking for a law firm ever since having a hard time trying to get one to take this on anyone know of a law firm willing to do this class action post in here give them this site
kj79 Posts: 1I just took my 2009 WHITE Santa Fe into a body shop to have them look at some paint peeling. They said they've seen the same thing in Santa Fe's. Two guys at the shop said get rid of it as soon as you can. They told me the dealership would tell me a rock did the damage. And sure enough, the dealership said it was caused from a rock. I will be getting rid of my Santa Fe ASAP. NOT dealing with this.
dannyh1 Posts: 1I now take pictures of other Santa Fe's in parking lots. I swear, 75% of them have a similar if not exact same issue as mine. I've loved this car('03 Santa Fe, merlot color). No major issues, but I can not in good conscience ever purchase a Hyundai again. I feel like white trash, but will drive this thing for at least another 2 years. No choice. I've looked into paint jobs, and that route just isn't feasible. After finally overcoming a horrible reputation, Hyundai needs to not only recognize they have a major problem, but they need to make it right.
Funny I started this tread years ago. My Santa Fe paint has been pretty much stable. I have no peeling, only clear coast scratches that nomidea how they get there. I do however never use automated car washes. I always wash by hand. This is still not acceptable, I had a scratch on the rear when I bought the car I swear was done while they washed it before I picked it up for purchase. Anyway they had their paint repair guy fix the scratch and he did a really good job, I asked him about the paint being bad. He said all paint is bad now, also that you can scratch the clear coat with your finger nail, thanks to the environmentalist. I cant accept that answer because I have seen Fords and other cars that have paint that stand up over time.
This car has been good so far almost 100k but I wont be buying another. I dont like the way the Hyundai corp deals with this issue at all.
canarybbb Posts: 1Hi All,
I see that I am one of many. I own a 2004 Hyundai Santa Fe. My clear coat has peeled off down to bare metal in areas like roof, top of doors and top of door panels, anywhere that the sun always beats down. I just thought it was because I didn't take good enough care of the care. However, as I look at the posts it seems that it doesn't matter all that much, that this rash of paint failures happens even to Hyundai's that were garaged. I never thought about it being a fault on the Hyundai Corps part. Well at least I'm in good company. Maybe if enough of us post on this site, it will help someone ambitious enough to start a class action suit.
9 years old when did it start? sun will do this, i have a camry had no issues with paint, it started peeling around nine years, Had it in the very hot fl sun for two years at 9 and 10 years and it started.
Just depends on when it started? Also its too old for lawsuit. You can thank the greens, for forcing car companies to change paint to the current junk they use.
My Santa Fe has paint bubbling on the hood, above the windshield, and along the driver side door. I spoke to consumer affairs today and they advised me to take it to the dealership and have them look at it and they said whatever the dealership says they will honor. Well I took it this afternoon and three different managers said the same thing....looks like a bad paint job!!. So they put a claim in with Hyundai and we play the waiting game. However, after reading all these posts I think I have some leverage. I too would like to be apart of the class action lawsuit.
chproverbs356 Posts: 1My white 2008 Santa Fe just started to peel on top like overnight!!! I am so upset, as it started peeling just a few weeks after purchasing a 2013 Tuscon.......this is not fading-I had a Jeep Cherokee for 12 years and it did fade from sun-this is not the same issue....so frustrated!!!
peelingmad Posts: 2I have a 2010 red Santa Fe. The clear coat peeling started with one door handle at about 30K miles. I did not realize the white-ish spot on the handle was a bubble in the clear coat. At 42K that bubble started to peel and then a 8" by 2" strip on the driver side quarter panel started to peel. I called the dealership and they said bring it in. I got there only to be told that the warranty expires at 36K miles. I told the tech on the phone my mileage reading while making my appointment for their viewing. I was very angry for making an unnecessary trip. Today I noticed at 48K miles that all the door handles are bubbling/peeling. I called the dealership again and was told they would talk to the district manager and get back to me in one week. If I get blown off this time, I will be taking this to the local Dallas new channels. This is unacceptable. I have purchased at least 6 brand new American made cars in my life time and this has NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE. Normal wear and tear on a paint job should not result in peeling clear coat. This Santa Fe is my first foreign car purchase - it won't happen again!!!
Too much work for me. :-) The Michigan rust is going to get my cars in a few more years anyway but they are both over 14 now. Kind of surprised that the paint has done so well actually.
Need help navigating? email@example.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
maxwell65 Posts: 1My 2009 Santa Fe started to peel back in December.I was washing it and noticed about a 1"spot of paint coming off on the hood just above the headlight.I took it directly to the dealer and was informed that with 38,500 miles it was out of warranty. I painted the spot but it has since grown to about 3" x6".Two more spots on the hood have started to appear, Did I HEAR CLASS ACTION.
We got word today from the dealership that the Hyundai rep said the charge would be $1100.00 and they will pay $400.00. They were not going to fix the side panels like their body shop manager said needs to be done. I can get my entire vehicle painted for $1600.00. I will never buy another Hyundai. They don't seem to care about the loyal customers. We have purchased 3 Hyundai's since 2006 (over $50,000)!!
I was told by their body shop manager that eventually the entire cars paint will bubble if it is not fixed. My husband found on consumer reports that Hyundai models up to 2010 had paint issues. Now, you would think if this many people are complaining about the paint, they would have recalled them. No, they are only interested in get your money then they are done with you.


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NORMAN — A social media website identifying Norman residents as high water users is factually misleading, according to one Norman homeowner who made the list.
A graphic posted by Casey Holcomb on the University of Oklahoma Department of Geography and Environmental Sustainability Facebook site lists the top water consumers in Norman based on city utility records. Holcomb said Sierra Club Red Earth Group chair Mike Givel made an FOI request for the information in January.
Norman Utilities Director Ken Komiske said he had no idea those numbers would end up on the Internet, but the information is a matter of public record.
Records may not lie, but they don't always tell the whole story.
Fourth on the residential top user list is former Chamber of Commerce Board President and one-time mayoral candidate Trey Bates.
Bates said no one asked him why his water bill is so high before publishing his name on the Internet. In fact, Bates' home shares a meter with another home because of unusual circumstances that unfolded in an area where most homes had private wells years ago.
"My real name is Russell Bates, and that's what I list my accounts under," he said. "Someone went through and changed it to Trey, which is what I go by."
Bates said he believes the name change shows a deliberate attempt to identify him specifically.
"I share a meter with another family," Bates said. "We have a well, so we actually use very little water. What we actually use is for bathing and for inside the house. We don't use any city water for irrigation at all. The other family that's on our shared meter does irrigate because they don't have a water well, and they have a large piece of property."
Bates said despite that, his family's city water usage is much less than his neighbor's. Dividing the amount in half makes the number look different.


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ELK RAPIDS — Stone Circle founder and poet Terry Wooten will receive the 2013 State History Award for Educational Programs later this month for his popular Elders Project.
The project uses oral history interviews to create poetry based on the stories and lives of elders in area communities. Middle school and high school students interview elders and transcribe the electronic recording verbatim. Wooten then edits and translates it into poetic verse while retaining the storytellers' unique voice.
From these poems students then can publish a book or weave the poetry into "A Spoon River Anthology" style reading/performance for their school or community.
Wooten has conducted Elder Projects in Kingsley (2006) Elk Rapids (2007-2010), Brethren (2011), and Kalkaska (2012).
Books based on the technique include: "Lifelines: A World War II Story of Jack and Leda Miller,(2004), "Child of War" (2007), "A Book of Hours" (2009) and "Water Under the Bridge" (2011).
The Antrim County poet has been a monthly Record-Eagle columnist since 2010.
The Stone Circle celebrated its 30th anniversary this summer.
Wooten will receive his award on Sept. 27, at the Historical Society of Michigan's annual state history conference in Kalamazoo.


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Here is my scenario I used to weight around 200 to 205 lbs but when I moved to Brasil I jumped up to 220 to 225. I kinda let myself go but recetly I tried to lose some weight and I got down to 210 to 215 it took a few months. My concern since I lost that weight I fell skinner and kinda look skinner, but my question is if its normal to lose some body mass if you lose weight?
What should be my ideal goal weight?? Im 6'3!
I also forgot to mention its been over 6 months that I dont work out. I just walk around the city a lot! I wanted to get back to the gym what work out should i start doing?
If you loose weight, you'll lose muscle too. It's hard to hold onto the muscle especially if you aren't working out. To do it properly, you'll have to loose weight slowly and workout very hard to try to maintain the muscle.
"Its not the will to win that matters, everyone has that. Its the will to prepare to win that matters." Bear Bryant
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i really like the 5-3-1 routine, my strength has gone up like crazy since starting (still not hulk like, but fairly strong).
Being that youve been out for about 6 months, id start back doing the usual 3 sets of 8-10 of the big 4 (bench, squat, dead and military), combined with the usual supplementary/accessory workouts.
After a couple months, maybe 3, you should be able to get into the 5-3-1 without being TOO sore or getting injured etc.
If you are still trying to lean out while gaining strength, i pair my 5-3-1 with the "boring but big" accessory workout, basically do your 5-3-1 work sets, then do 5 sets of 10 with lighter weight and less rest, its a great way to get your cardio in and not have to worry about looking like a cross country runner.
at 6'3 id say ideal weight could be anywhere from 200 all the way up to 250 depending on how youre built. Im 6'8 and my weight has ranged from 190 to 350 so ive been at both extremes. 190 is WAYYYYYYYY too skinny for me, and 350 im a tub of crap. right now im about 310 and looking ok, but ideal for me i think is about 280 if i keep making strength/muscle gains like i have been over the past few months. ive got a good 20lbs of fat i could trim off but right now im more concerned with gaining strength without gaining weight, which is resulting in me leaning out a bit at a time.
Height 6'8 Weight 310 and a little chubby. goal... leaner 310ish
5-3-1 program started September 2009
Bests as of 2/20/10 (workout bests)
Squat - 445 (375x12)
Bench -320 315x2(3/29/2010 post workout)
Dead - 445 (495 hitched) (435x8 4/3/10)
Lets just say i dont have a lifting history. I used to lift on those machines but people say free weights are better and gives you a better result. Im really bad when it comes to exercise I dont really know what to do you know. Back in high school we used to work upper body one day and then lower body the next day but at my gym the guy makes me work upper and lower at the same day! is it right??
Can you guys make me a training schedule based for a newbie??
Free weights X machines = What you guys think??
ohh and my goal is I want to stay at 210 215 but with some good muscle defenation and less fat.
Can I post pictures here?


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212 Kelly Mill Rd, Cumming, GA 30040
The Cumming-Forsyth Chamber of Commerce actively works with business owners, and recruits, new business…More owners, to build a strong economic foundation for the community.
Residents and visitors can purchase maps of Cumming and Forsyth County, as well as pick up free business cards of area chamber members at the Chamber of Commerce location at 212 Kelly Mill Road.
Detailed information about chamber membership and sponsorship can be found on the Chambe of Commerce website.
110 E Main St, Cumming, GA 30040
The Forsyth County Water & Sewer Department, located in the administration building in downtown Cumming, provides…More the county with the highest quality of water along with sewer service through superb leadership and environmental stewardship.
Residents and business owners can visit http://www.forsythco.com/DeptPage.asp?DeptID=28&PageID=206 for water restriction information.
875 Lanier 400 Pkwy, Cumming, GA 30040
Keep Forsyth County Beautiful is a non-profit organization for education and public outreach. A team effort evolved to…More maintain the community's beauty through cleanup and recycling. The organization partners with local government, schools, business and civic organizations to accomplish tasks. Several programs like Adopt A Road, Adopt A Stream, Rivers Alive and the annual Christmas Tree Recycling event are among the many projects. All programs are supported by hundreds of volunteers to maintain roadways and water resources.
7785 Majors Rd, Cumming, GA 30041
The setting for the campus of Forsyth's Lanier Technical Institute is beautifully set amid trees and rolling hills.…More Located off Ga. 400, the campus is very convenient for the area counties' residents, offering programs of varying interests. It is the source of the area's workforce development, offering career-technical education programs, customized business and industry training and continuing education programs for technical and professional development. It also just completed a large Convention Center, offering large groups a place to convene in the area.


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At a glance
The ThinkPad i Series 1200/1300 Battery Charger enables convenient spare battery recharging without tethering the ThinkPad to the wall. Consider the charger for greater unplugged flexibility. The charger supports 1200/1300 NiMH and Li-Ion batteries. Convenience and flexible operation are enhanced with charged batteries that are ready to go when you are.
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Warranty1 year Limited - customer carry-in exchangePackagingYou will receive one box containing the following items:
Product marketing and replacement part numbers (FRU)Part numbers applicable to: worldwide
Product datesWorldwide
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Agency approvals
Hardware requirementsThe ThinkPad i Series 1200/1300 Battery Charger is supported on the following platforms:
CompatibilitySome configurations may not be compatible.LimitationsSome configurations may not be supported.OtherThe following products can be purchased with this product:


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Undocumented college students in the Merced area are being urged to come forward to seek financial aid for which they could be eligible under the state's Dream Act.
This year, undocumented students became eligible for state financial aid, such as the Community College Fee Waiver and Cal Grants, said Anne Newins, vice president of student personnel at Merced College.
"Now they will be able to get benefits that they weren't eligible for before," she said.
California's Dream Act was signed into law in the fall of 2011 by Gov. Jerry Brown. The second part of the act, Assembly Bill 131, took effect Jan. 1, making undocumented students eligible to receive some state funding.
The first part, Assembly Bill 130, took effect at the start of last year. It allowed undocumented students to be eligible for donor-based scholarships from a college or university.
Students shouldn't be afraid to fill out Dream Act applications, which are similar to the standard Free Application for Student Aid, Merced College officials said.
Sharon Reinhardt, director of financial aid at the college, said officials have informed financial aid counselors of the changes and sent application information to students identified as eligible.
However, Reinhardt said, the college's online application system has been down for the past several days because state officials are updating it. The online application should be available in a few days, she said Monday.
The college has given out 50 fee waivers, Reinhardt said, but it's difficult to know how many more students will come forward.
The college has a couple of staff members who are available to help students, on a limited basis, with their Dream Act application in the FAFSA Lab on campus, Reinhardt said.
Nora Martinez, a Merced College financial aid adviser, is one of those helping Dream Act students. Others interested in pursuing financial aid eligibility can contact her or email questions to financialaid@mccd. edu.
UC Merced officials are working to encourage undocumented students to apply for the financial assistance they are eligible to receive.
Diana Ralls, director of financial aid and scholarships at UC Merced, said officials reach out to students who they believe may qualify under the state's Dream Act, but have not submitted an aid application.
"We send them an email letting them know that they may be eligible and encourage them to submit an application for financial consideration," she said in an email.
Officials sent emails to students this month, and in January and September of last year, she said.
"We offer all students assistance with filling out forms, understanding their options and finding resources," she said in the email. "Undocumented students are included in that offer of assistance as well."
Reporter Yesenia Amaro can be reached at (209) 385-2482 or email@example.com.


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July 31, 2014
SONOMA, Calif. (AP) -- Kurt Busch has earned his first career road course victory with a dominating performance at Infineon Raceway.
Busch led a race-high 76 laps and beat Jeff Gordon by almost 4 seconds for his first win of the season.
It marked a total turnaround for Busch and his Penske Racing team, which struggled mightily last month and made behind-the-scenes personnel changes to adapt.
Carl Edwards finished third Sunday, followed by Clint Bowyer and Marcos Ambrose.
The race featured several on-track flare-ups, most notably Brian Vickers' payback spin of Tony Stewart. The bump sent Stewart's car spinning into a stack of tires, and the rear of his Chevrolet came to a rest on top of the stack.
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Oregon's often brilliant sunny summer days offer varied recreation possibilities that continue after the sun goes down at two Oregon State Parks.
You may choose to visit either Rooster Rock or Stub Stewart State Parks this summer where the night sky is the drawing card for hundreds who attend OMSI's Star Parties.
When the summer sun goes down, most folks call it a day!
But not Jim Todd!
He puts in long hours after the sun sets so you can better understand the secrets of the night sky: "Families, children, people in wheelchairs –everyone is welcome to join us and we try to accommodate them as much as we can," noted OMSI's Chief Astronomer.
Todd is OMSI's point man to the stars – the head astronomer who manages the monthly 'Star Parties' at Stub Stewart State Park in Washington County.
"We try to engage with the public at all levels," said Todd. "This is what we're going to look at tonight and why it's so interesting and fascinating – plus, the science behind it."
OMSI's Star Parties date back more than 20 years and Todd has been heading up the Stub Stewart SP event for the past decade.
Allie Westfall is a State Park Ranger at Stub Stewart SP who said that Star Parties are true assets for the park: "Throughout the day we tell our campers about it, do some roving around the park spreading the word. We have many people who travel from the Portland area to attend too. It's quite popular."
Star Parties are not celebrity shin-digs, but wonderful, even magical gatherings of folks who are curious about the stars and planets.
The events depend upon volunteers like Ron McBain and his fellow astronomers from the Rose City Astronomers Club.
McBain and a dozen club members show up at the park early and set up their telescopes that allow you to feel as though you could reach out and touch the Moon's craters or Saturn's rings.
They also provide an invaluable education resource as they explain to visitors exactly what they are looking at.
"Many young people have never seen the moon or stars or Saturn through a telescope," said McBain. "They are just amazed at what they see at night. Anyone can do it too – even with binoculars - and see marvelous things. I really enjoy and love the reaction of the young people."
Star Parties occur once a month from May through September on nights when the stars dazzle and the planets amaze park visitors like Raylea Pickett – she and her daughter traveled to Stub Stewart SP for the event.
She admitted that they had never seen anything like it before: "We've heard about them (Star Parties) for years but this is our first time venturing out and it's a great activity for kids of all ages."
Jim Todd told the large audience that his lifelong enthusiasm for the wonders of space was born 44 years ago --- on this very night!
"The Apollo 11 landing on the moon!" said Todd. "That singular event helped motivate me to get close to astronomy and space science."
That's right!
Neil Armstrong's famous line as he stepped on the moon in 1969: "One small step for man – one giant leap for mankind," inspired then 8-year old Jim Todd to travel a path that led to exploring the universe with his telescope.
"When John Kennedy made the announcement about sending people to the moon," added Todd. "He said it wasn't going to be easy - it was hard. That has been a personal goal for me too. Everybody is enjoying themselves tonight – really having a great time. What a perfect evening and the best part of my job is helping to create this kind of atmosphere."
OMSI and Oregon State Parks have more star parties scheduled on August 12 and September 21 at Stub Stewart SP and Rooster Rock SP along the Columbia River.
Don't forget the grand-daddy of them all; the famous "Oregon Star Party" is held each August in the Ochoco National Forest near Prineville.