text:
The Bronze Soldier
Today it was a hard day in one of Estonian towns. It was hard because of this bronze monument you can see on the pictures.
It was a monument that from Russian point of view commemorates the glory of Soviet forces liberating Estonia and Europe from the Nazi invasion. From the Estonian official point of view it is the monument of the invaders because Estonians were fighting together with German army against Soviet and thus it can't stand anymore in Estonia.
So they demolished it tonight and now it looks like this. Just two pair of bronze boots.
But there are a lot of Russians who live in Estonia so they started expressing their attitude to this even on the streets. Police came into play and used gas.
Tens were wounded, one later died in the hospital.
And Russian bloggers now compare this act of demolition with another act in 2001 committed by Taliban in Afghanistan when they destroyed the tallest Buddha statue just because Islam bans human statues from using. Who knows who is right..
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396 responses to "The Bronze Soldier"
Actually this is the typical fake russian point of view, i advise you to remove this post. I believe that you probably did not know about what's actually going on here, but you might want to investigate. the "bronze boots" picture is a photoshopped provocation, the statue was never demolished, it was taken to another place (complete with the brick wall behind it) within tallinn. yesterday, mobs consisting of several thousand people (of whom 95% were russians) went berserk in tallinn and caused about 50 million crowns in damage (4.4 million american dollars). the russian who died in hospital died of another russian stabbing him. as the mob attacked the police, they used teargas as self defense.
"From the Estonian official point of view it is the monument of the invaders because Estonians were fighting together with German army against Soviet and thus it can't stand anymore in Estonia."
-almost, but the estonians were FORCED to fight with the two forces that attacked estonia in the second world war, both the soviet union and germany. i must emphasize this: WE DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE ALONGSIDE WHOM TO FIGHT WITH.
Nobody forced them, it was their choice to join fascist troops.
NOBODY FORCED THEM? you are terribly mistaken, my friend. many estonians were killed in the german army as well as in the soviet one. often it was even estonian against estonian in two different armies in their own homeland… now, whilst both armies were present and fighting over here, we did have somewhat of a choice – but only between two options – to fight under soviet russia (not good) or fascist germany (certainly not good either). some people chose germany, and let me tell you why (i'm not trying to justify the atrocities of hitler's germany, hear me out). germans, at the time had done nothing specifically wrong to us estonians. the soviets, on the other hand, came here in 1941 (again that is, we have been annexed by half of europe in the past centuries…) and immediately started to oppress us… so naturally the "sympathy" tended to be on the other side. the german military was much more humane towards its own troops, they had better supplies and armament. estonians were even allowed to wear our national flag on the sleeve of the military uniform! no such thing with the russians.
no such thing with the russians
Oh! Russians do not allow to use fascist nazi symbols! How disgusting you are!
Yeah, it's obvious the bricks behind the statue were all photoshopped, and it's a very, very sloppy job. Any 12 year old with a few hours could do better work. The patterns on the bricks are a dead giveaway…and bricks are so easy to clone.
Nice try guys, but I don't understand why anyone bothered.
i'ts called propaganda. russians are pretty good at it, look around the comments. russian propaganda is also what got the thousands of people destroying my city.
You are a liar in Goebbels style! It is REAL PHOTOS!
I think that intelligent Russians should beg to be annexed into Estonia.
They are. Russian doctors, for example, are coming to work here because wages are wildly higher than in their homeland.
Yes, this monument will be moved to a cementry and it's not destroyed. But russian propaganda knows always better and never lies.
And a copypaste from wikipedia about "The Liberators"
"Estonia was occupied by Soviet troops in June 1940, as a consequence of the secret amendment to the August 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and National Socialist Germany. Estonia was formally annexed by the Soviet Union in August 1940 as the Estonian SSR. Many of the country's political and intellectual leaders were killed or deported to remote areas of the USSR by the Soviet authorities during 1940 to 1941. The repressions also included actions taken against thousands of ordinary people. When the German Operation Barbarossa started against the Soviet Union, thousands of young Estonian men were forcibly drafted into the Red Army. Hundreds of political prisoners, whom the retreating Soviets had no time to move, were killed. The country was occupied by Germany from 1941 to 1944 and many Estonians joined the German Armed Forces. Soviet forces reconquered Estonia after fierce battles in the northeast of the country on the Narva river and on the Tannenberg Line (Sinimäed). In the face of imminent re-occupation by the Red Army, tens of thousands of people chose to either retreat together with the Germans or flee the country to Finland or Sweden . In 1949, in response to slow progress in forming collective farms, as prescribed by the Soviet ideology, tens of thousands of people were forcibly deported in a few days either to labor camps or Siberia where half of them perished; the other half were not allowed to return until the early 1960s (several years after Stalin's death)."
I read that they were moving the body that lied under the statue to a cemetary, and hiding the statue.
yes, bodies also, if there are any.
apparently it's a grave of fallen soldiers, and they want to rebury them to another place, the present place IS the center of our capital. the statue is at present not hidden, but taken to a temporary place and guarded (so it could not be vandalized, which it no doubt would be at the moment)
Right, and
This article does not cite its references or sources.
that's unfortunately typical for wikipedia (as you should well know) and believe me, the sources are abundant. are there any reliable (and reasonable) sources against that view?
"I'm just a stoner-hippy who loves surfing and skating"
Lucky you.
Actually the point is (and it has been lost in all this fuss) that nobody doubts that Red Army soldiers were brave and even heroic. What might surprise you is that neither Estonians nor Latvians for that matter do not hate individual soldiers as soldiers. They hate Stalinist regime which brought about a great deal of suffering and used Red Army as a tool to commit its criminal deeds.
So, fallen soldiers shall rest in peace and honor in soldiers cemetery.
But there shall be no monuments to deeds of totalitarian regime in a center of a city formerly conquered by it. Especially if such monuments are used as ritual places for fanatical followers of kinda totalitarian cult, which you can see at this forum personalized by all those provocateurs naming themselves borahs, sarahs, borises etc.
You are fascists!
leave us be. it's strictly the problem of ESTONIA, not other countries. can you do anything to quell the protesters? didn't think so. Speaking of fascism, did soviet russia not annex our country for fifty years, and destroy almost every single one of OUR memorials?
Russia did not annexed Estonia. You government signed up agreements with Soviet government.
And now you act just like Fascist scum!
true, unfortunately, but in the treaty there were some points such as how many russian troops were allowed to enter estonia (25000 if i remember correctly) and when they had to leave (in a few years). The russians came here with a force more than four times as large as allowed and never left.
But estonia has a real economy and a real democracy. It Russia that should beg to be annexed.
Where did you get that information from Freedom House???
Because its sooooo free and independant.. Ha Ha
Oh relly?? So that's why they come to UK to clean toilets, deal dugs, vandalize your streets, and abuse the welfare system??
Honestly, old people are sacred to walk on the streets at night becouse these thugs..
shut the hell up. you think you're helping to make the point here? i REALLY HOPE there won't be any more deaths, and that includes every single one of the marauders. why can't people understand that the answer to violence is NOT violence in this case.
Shame on you Estonia for rewriting history!
Shame on you Estonia for forgetting how you helped Hitler build concentration camps where Jewish woman and children were starved and burned alive!
Same on you Estonians for making old and frail ethnic Russians learn you difficult language, or stay in poverty!
Shame on you Estonia for discriminating and incriminating ethnic Russians who just want to earn enough to stay alive!
Shame on you Estonia for allowing racism, nationalism and anti-Semitism in the media!
Shame on you Estonia for distributing propaganda and lies about good Russian people.
And, shame on you Estonia for manipulating and brainwashing your own people to hate Russia, in order to win some political points.
You can lie all you want, and make russian people appear as bad as you like. But good people will know who are the real victims of your repressive state!
Russian people – we are with you on your difficult fight against nazism.
A friend from Elat.
Estonia is removing not "old sign of communist era", but the sign of Saint War for Russia.
11 millions of Russian soldiers died in the battles against Germany.
16 millions civilians on the occupied were killed by Germans. Many women and female children were raped by Germans before death, many people were taken into slavery do German's camps, many people died because of starvation cos' Germans burnt out all food and sowing or in blockade of Leningrad.
WW2 is Saint War for Russians. This war cost Russians so much pain. As i said before, Estonia is removing not the sign of communism, but the sign of soldiers that laid there lives in the Saint War.
Estonia was occupied by Soviet Union in 1940, and tens of thousands of people (Estonia's population was little over one million, and still is) strangely got urge to leave their homes and move to Siberia, when Soviet control was restored in 1944 another batch of tens of thousands of people felt strange urge to move to Siberia, so strange why estonians feel like not having memorial of Soviet invaders in middle of their capital.
Besides Bronze soldier was not demolished, but moved to another location, a cemetary that is not across the street from former Tallinn HQ of KGB.
In fact after WWII a total of 10% of original estonian population was scattered around Soviet Union and a matching number of russians moved in relatively short time to Estonia, strange coincidence indeed.
I'd also like to add to my previous comment that Bronze Soldier was moved to not just any cemetary, but an estonian military cemetary, much more appropriate place for it IMO.
Hail, the true voise of Estonia government!!
by the way, if you really need to keep this misguiding post online, then what about the several WWII monuments in RUSSIA that have been DEMOLISHED (not taken away!) over the past few months (one, near st. petersburg, was this week!)? will you run stories on them as well?
The propaganda that is published by Russian authorities and media to the Russian public is as big hypocricy as it ever can be…
Whereas Estonias goverment is simply moving the war graves and the tomb statue to a more peaceful location, the Russian authorities have been ruthlessly demolishing the II World War monuments (in Himky and other locations). Where is the publicity about these events?
The fact is that Russia has the biggest concetration of active neo-nazis and where acts of xenophoby get commited daily against the minorities that live in russia (Moldovians, Georgians).
The "truth" that the media is publishing to the public in Russia is yet another story. Majority of the russian public is just blindfolded by the russian goverment – it is a country where free and independent media virtually doesn't exist anymore. The journalists (eg Politovskaya) that speak their mind about the reality in Russia get "mysteriously" killed…
About history… Estonians were forced on the gunpoint to fight on both sides in the WW II, brother against brother. We equally hate both totalitarian regimes facist nazis and stalinistic communists.
It is just a historic reality that the allied won the WW II and allowed the Soviet Union to occupy Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for 50 years. During these 50 years of occupation The Soviet Union committed a lot of terrible things against the Estonia and Estonians (10% of population deported to siberia, mass killings, and other crime). The crimes of communism have been internationally condoned, equally as the crimes of nazism….
i have nothing to say to you.
You are posting here estonian nazi propaganda in Goebbels style!
What's with the swearing?
I hear you. He tends to make all Russians look bad.
Yes, but you know that I said that to you and that I was joking when I said it.
texas1, do you ever get tired of Boris and that guy who claims he's Finnish?
to me, they're entertaining for a few threads and then I'm sick and tired of the same jew/antiamerican/gay jokes.
I have a lack of motivation, please enlighten me 🙂
So you think its ok to make such hateful remarks??
Ha, – and you get offended when people call you a Nazi?
no, I get amused
because you obviously do not know what you're talking about 🙂
You can't get away with such a empty comment. Please explane yourself….
How nice of you being polite and all finally 🙂
Well for starters I could find a few cases of uncalled insults *from* you in this thread alone, as well as cases of blind xenophobia, hatred or just plain lies about the situation in Estonia and elsewhere. Shall I continue?
But we both know this so-called discussion is pretty much pointless, right?
Quote by texas1: " I don't need any gifts from a Jew. I still remember the black plague" – if you think there is nothing wrong with such a quote then no, I have nothing more to say to you!
baby, why mess texas1 into this, we were talking about you, not him
besides I highly doubt you can tell me anything new I'd be interested to know
This is what I said referring to texas1: "So you think its ok to make such hateful remarks??" – You replied. So tell me how exactlly are we talking about me??
Actually don't reply, because I don't think you will give me any usefull information that would want to hear..
"I'm getting seriously fed up with his forum poisoning…"
Oh, yes.
But this is just a piece of cake.
Let me ask you – how would you like to live in a country where guys like Boris Abramov and Borah a.k.a. Sarah Levi-Alkolupukki have established radical pressure groups, political parties, participate in parliament elections (in a country which they want to disappear), own newspapers (where they print approximately the same hate speech stuff you can read here), hating everyone, permanently lying to create their own reality and just complaining about how "oppressed" they are?
I am talking about Estonia and Latvia.
We are having hard time here with this kind of obsessed aggresive xenophobic Soviet revanchist Russian chauvinist extremist lying as hell lunatics. They have rights, you know, so we must let them go on with it.
does it mean you're also gay?
Well, that is a excellent example of Russian propaganda treats Estonia (and last year they treated the same way also Latvia)…
Can anyone call this civilized discussion? Anyone?
a one-sided civilized discussion perhaps 🙂 even if i say so myself.
You are nazi. Nothing to discuss with you.
It doesn't seem very civilized. The people who are closed minded on other subjects remain closed minded here too. That only means that they are young and will have different opinions in time.
Have you ever heard of the Darwin Awards? I think Russia does a good enough job of killing their own.
http://www.vm.ee/estonia/pea_172/kat_399/998.html What have you got to say to that? Nothing, it was you, Soviets, who killed Jews and your own Russians, Estonians did not kille them.
cut the caps for starters. how old are you, 15? get your facts straight, i'm getting tired arguing with you. so, which country killed more people in the second world war, soviet russia or the estonians? who killed more of THEMSELVES?
Russians lived on their land included into Estonia in 1918 at least 300 years. Are they natives? Of course! Are they occupiers? No! Why Russians as natives should leave their native land included in modern Estonia?
Estonia in modern borders appeared after Bolshevik revolution, when Russian land with Russian population were voluntary included into Estonia.
If Estonians want have nothing with Bolsheviks and Russians, then they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
Russians don't have to leave their native land. If Estonians want Russians to leave – they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
yah but there not in that situation, and the hole thing is about being the biger man and knowing when to quit. and when it comes to country's no one knows when is enuff
You shouldn't hate. That's bad karma.
You should be more worried about the fascists in your own country.
Kill Russians and Jews? Think again http://www.vm.ee/estonia/pea_172/kat_399/998.html
What is surprising to me is that this is such an Ugly and Brutish looking statue…I can well understand it being a symbol of oppression…it just looks opressive.
Good Ridance to Bad Art.
Best Wishes, Traveller
actually, that's the weird part of it – it does not look brutal to me. it looks sad. in my opinion, they should have left it there, but the deed is done, and that is NO REASON to go about destroying half of the city and injuring so many people in the process.
Ok! I agree that Estonia has been under the soviet rule for decades and that people never agreed to that rule and that, perhaps, the statue of the Soviet soldier embodied that violence that Estonia had been object to. Ok, I don't deny it. But then you can't ignore what kind of symbol this statue is for the Russian people, what WW2 means to a people who suffered so much from it and fought so sincerely against the fascists. Mind you, I am not talking of the political leaders who had signed a treaty with the nazi Germany before the beginning of the war. I am talking of simple people who died to protect their families and their country.(I don't care if what Iam writing sounds pathetic and propaganda-like because it's not and if you can't understand it, all the worse for you.)
What I mean is that that statue and those soldiers buried underneath were important for the Russian and for the Russian minority in Estonia and the government could not ignore what kind of reaction the removing of the statue and the "excavation" of the bodies would trigger before May 9th. So, don't say there was NO REASON (in capital letters) to destroy the city and the "injured people" were the demonstrators beaten by the police.
And it was all the Estonian government's fault because it's so busy undertaking "symbolic actions" to annoy Moscow instead of solving real problems like the legal status of the Russian minority.
Well then, you'll be happy to know that it will be officially re-erected on may the 8.th, on a real cemetery.
It's the only thing they can do now to prevent more demonstrations and more violence…
it was planned, of course, even before they took it down. The date was not set, however.
it is very sad to see monuments removed in this manner. monuments should stay no matter of politics. also it is very sad to see that estonians are building monuments to nazi forces and removing the ones which are supposed to celebrate victory over nazism.
can you please tell ONE monument that has been created to praise nazi in estonia? There is none. We hate nazis as we hate communists. The image of Estonia as nazis is a pure propaganda that has been created by Russian media.
The monument was moved from the center of the city to a military cemetery, where it is supposed to be. We're not barbaric as Russian government who destroys monuments.
You built up at least 3 NAZI MONUMENTS during last year.
i understand estonian point of view over russian ocupation during history but i really think that the monument shouldn't be removed. leave the history behind, or you will face it once again. i wouldn't say anything if there were no monuments like these:
thanks katjusha for the pictures,
None of these monuments are built or supported by the Estonian government or the general public.
Some are built by some unfortunate WWII veterans that were forced to fight on german side and are commemorating their fallen comrades. The Estonian general public does not approve such statues.
The last photos are of a statue that the government actually removed by force, because it depicts a SS soldier – an equally bad memory for Estonias as the red soldier…
it is good to know that the government doesn't approve such monuments. i hope the majority feels that way too. also i guess the main problem is media coverage because when reading about such things i always get a feeling estonia is far right orientated. so those "nazi monuments" are actually doing bad promotion for estonia. still i somehow feel that removing the bronze soldier statue is wrong because it is a monument to fallen solders and not some communist leaders like stalin, lenin or marx. but hey, at least the monument is not destroyed like in many other post communist countries like mine as well.
to celebrate victory over nazism… and defeat under communism. i tend to agree on the "monuments should stay no matter of politics" part (with few exceptions of course), but which nazi monuments are you referring to? and a heads-up to everyone, this has long ago escalated to something far beyond the bronze guy, this is just violence for the sake of it.
i see your point. and most of all i really understand it. estonia suffered under soviet rule i i respect the estonian "bad" feelings toward russia. still, i think estonia should do more to get on positive track with russia and most of all with russians living in estonia. after all they live there now. everyone has its own pint of view of bronze soldier, i think of it as a monument to fallen antifascist soldiers. antifascism is the soul of modern europe so removing such monument is little bit tricky. no matter of the fact that it is a monument for fallen "soviet" soldiers.
Katjusha, monuments in the images that you have posted are also for the fallen soldiers, just as that bronze thing in the center of Talin.
Some of these monuments have been remowed by the government, because they depict a Nazi soldier. The Bronze Soldier depicts a Soviet soldier, ir is was remowed by the same government that removed Nazi soldier. So where is the problem?
The problem lies in differing Nazis and Soviets and not seeing their actual and obvious sameness. Im not speking about soldiers, but regimes who acted using the hands of these soldiers. The Nazis repressed anyone who wansn't Arian (actually, anyone who wasn't a Nazi, you could be the Arian of Arias, but if you weren't also a Nazi, your race is not the obstacle to put you in a gass chamber). Soviets repressed almost everybody. So where is that big difference?
The difference exists only in the minds of the people who likes thoes big, soundly spouts, without seeing beyond them.
Do you even know the difference between fascizm and nazism?
To all estonian haters – apparantly most of you are from Russia. How would you like the monument to a mongol soldier in the center of Moscow? Or a lithuanian – polish invader of 17 th century?
I thought the post was funny.
woops. i didn't read the whole thing. i guess it's not so funny.
Im from Latvia. I understand what Estonia goes through now. I hope there are no more deaths. Estonia, at least one man from Latvia is with you.
Keep going.
Can I ask you a question? As an American I've noticed that people from Baltic states still hate Russians, I really can't understand why. Are russians repressing you now?
Are the people who repressed you during soviet occupation still alive?
Why do your people have to discriminante against ethnic russians? Why should the new generation of russians suffer for the mistakes of their grandfathers?
This terrible nationalism and hatred, should be stopped. You are now memebers of a new union (EU). And if your country wants to stay in this great union, you should really act more like a civilized nation!
The baltic nations DO NOT REPRESS anyone in our countries. In fact the russians and other minorities live in our countries a lot better than in Russia. We do not hate Russians. Most of the Russians in our countries are very nice people and we have nothing against them.
The image of Baltic countries repressing Russians has been created by Russian propaganda and media that is under the government control. By some twisted political reason, the Russian Government picks every once in awhile several of its neighbouring countries and just starts bullying them, the examples are numerous: Georgia, Moldova, Latvia, Estonia, Belorussia, Poland etc.
Just search the international news… They just can't be peaceful with their neighbours…
I've visited Latvia and Lithuania about two years ago, and had contact with some russian friends of mine. They told me that they couldn't even get a proper job becouse they were being discriminated against. Their living conditions were much below the average ethnic latvian, and they couldn't even get proper health care.
When we went to the nearest bar, I could really feel the difference of service that was provided to them, in comparison to ethnic Latvians.
Thay told me that their life was a misery, and it was getting more worse every day. If they could, I am sure they would to go back Russia..
So tell me, – are their opinions also influenced by russian propaganda ?
While I can't comment on the situation of your friends in Latvia, I can say, that In Estonia the Russians (or whichever other nationality for that matter) have the same opportunities as Estonians if they speak the local languague and respect local laws.
Roughly half of my friends are Russians here, and I can't say that they are living significantly better or worse than my Estonian friends. Though, they have taken the time to learn our official languague and respect the Estonian history and our laws. Which can not be said about the maradeurs that are razing the shops on the streets of Tallinn at the moment…
i understand that estonian language is totally different from russian but why doesn't government make russian as second official language? after all many russians are living there and are going to stay there. it is much better to make friendly gesture than to have a big part of its citizens as enemies.
i have a theory about that. you see, there are the russians in the baltic states with estonian citizenship, then there are the russians without one. if you are not a citizen, then yes, i believe your quality of life will suffer. plan a) get to know your country and apply for citizenship, plan b) live in relative misery or plan c) go to russia, which should not be very hard to pull off. The main problem with the local russians is that many of them have not learned our national languages (estonian, latvian or lithuanian that is). i'm sure you understand that it is very hard not to discriminate people who do not speak your language in your own country, especially when we are talking about applying for jobs. has it occurred to you that i know russians too – they have learned estonian and are thus NOT discriminated.
"This terrible nationalism and hatred, should be stopped. You are now memebers of a new union (EU). And if your country wants to stay in this great union, you should really act more like a civilized nation!"
okay, you DID understand that the thousands of people who trashed our central town were >95% russians?
People from Estonia, this person that goes by "Washington" is not from Washington.
You got me, I'm not from Washington.. 🙁
I'm from Annapolis Virginia 🙂
What are you talking about?
I've figured out a bunch of your aliases. I wish they had private messaging on here. Do I have your e-mail?
if you look the third picture, you can notice that has been modified, as you can see like a blur, and a hole that remind me the game called Doom.
stop defending communist monument, Communism was born only to make the world a worst place to live
Ok, maybe just ones a week on Monday?? 😉
Sorry, I've kind of got a thing got the mayor's daughter of St. Petersburg.
U know what russian bride site i can get her on?
Sorrrryyyyy. Just a tasteless joke.
I'm just copying you.
the picture of just boots is a PHOTOSHOP FAKE.
I don't think so.
And, anyway, you can't deny that the statue was removed!
It was not REMOVED, it was moved to a military graveyard where graves belong, don't they?
down with monuments to mass rapers/murderers. go eesti! with sympathy from .lv
This is the the kind of extremism that provokes heated arguments.
Grow up!!
Thanks for the clarification.
My grandmother's sister was sent to Estonia during the WWII together with her little daughter and was forced to work for nazi and estonians, so for me this monument symbolized those who had sacrificed their life to set her free from slavery. My friend's grandfather died in Estonia fighting with nazi during the WWII, and for this friend this monument was a memory of his grandad. This monument was a stature of a soldier grieving about his dead friends, not a stature of Stalin, for example. It did not threaten Estonian independency. And there were many many people that lost their relatives during this war, many of their offsprings live in Estonia now, they were born and spent there all their life. Estonia got its independency long time ago, but it uses it to discriminate the national minority.
Anna, where have you been girl? I haven't seen you on here in ages.
the statue, i remind you, has not just been "removed", it was taken to another place. when this is all over, you can still go there with flowers, i believe it's a nice tradition – as long as it's not violent and you know our history as it is. were the fifty years under soviet rule not slavery for ethnic estonians?
At last somebody writing something sensible!!!
At last somebody trying to show what WW2 means for Russian people and what that statue meant. Millions of Russian people were killed and every Russian person has at least a member of his or her family who was killed during WW2. And so when the estonian government decides to take away that statue and to lead "excavations" of the bodies of those soldiers just a few days before May 9th, for a lot of Russians it feels like their grandfathers and fathers are being digged out and it feels like an insult. And the government should have known it and if it wanted to remove the grave, it should have acted differently and at another moment. And all the violent reactions are their fault.
Hi sweetie
If WW2 is the past, then why removing that statue in the first place? You're independent now, you're in the EU: why bothering about a piece of bronze? The thing is: people are NOT reasonable and they have feelings (I sound wishy-washy and girlish, right?) and they have symbols and the removing of that statue meant a lot both for the Estonian and the Russian. And I am not saying the statue shouldn't have been removed: I am saying it should have been done differently, on another moment.
…and to your surprise, i agree with you. but even so, finding reasons for violence is madness.
commies… liberals… all the same, all a running figure in the scope of mg-42… we mowed like grass your lame-o soldiers back then and we will find the way to kill them now. target, are you ready to die? 🙂
yes i am ready to die; and take 11 617 germans with me; small local community; i wanna at least match this so many dead;
Well, so it goes, again tonight, dem` Ruskies sure are frisky!
Best Wishes,
Hey A. Beevor has written one of the greatest book about world war on eastern front neither pro nazi nor pro soviet
Don't fear about watch your history, everyone had commited mistakes, but only the best can assume it
I dunno, I like Estonian girls – they are hot, because a lot of a russian sperm were thrown into, that mix makes me crazy$)
an example of the Soviet way of getting rid of the monuments commemorating those fallen in Estonia's War of Independence:
… not photoshopped.
Different time, different situation.
these are russians cheering after having blown up another estonian memorial. the point I was trying to make was that it seems to be ok for russians to destroy memorials in whatever country they choose to do commit their atrocities; however, it is no ok for estonians to RELOCATE a memorial… grow up, children, what's happening is not about estonia, it's about russia feeling that it's losing control. that's all there is to it. the riot of the past two nights had been carefully arranged by russia, the marauding and looting and destryoing just concurred with it. however, most of the russians living in estonia have brains and do not approve of what has been happening, these russians can speak several foreign languages (inc. estonian), CAN read and not brainwashed by russian media.
the russians are cheering after having blown up an estonian memorial 50 years ago.
The memorial that is now being relocated is dedicated to the soldiers who gave their lives liberating Estonia, full stop. Regardless of what people now see it as, it was built with that in mind. So for the people that lost family members, I think there is a good reason to be upset, don't you? By the same token, you have every right to be upset as there were plenty of atrocities commited during the occupation. The Estonian response seemed to be somewhat provocative and used this as a means to hammer home the point that Estonia could no longer be bullied by its neighbor.
What kind of reaction did you really expect, especially considering how the government used this as nationalist propoganda. It could have been handled much better by the authorities. That said, the rioting was despicable. There is no place for that kind of violence and it just serves to prove the nationalist point of view..
"liberating" Estonia?
Come on, then was Estonia a free country afterwards?
On the east side it was start of occupation, and that is full stop.
Russian now tends to say that she was only a victim of 2nd WW and that most of effort fighting Germany was made by her. Ever wondered why so many Russian people and soldiers died? First belief that German – friends and allies – won't attack (yes allies – before 2nd world war Russia was providing vast amounst of resources to Hitler's Germany and Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was the peek of the cooperation). Second. Second treating own people like meat in human wave tactics – that is Soviet Russia speciality. Also leaving thousands of people unevacuated in the cities defended by army – really mercifull thing.
Now Mr. Putin saying that external powers are treating Russia independence, killing democracy with changing the elections rules to be only in service to current vierchovka, limiting freedom of speech to the extent that is comparable to USSR times.
What do historical books used in Russian schools say about times from 1918 to 1989 ? Tell me. How is pre 2nd WW war 2nd WW war and post war time described?
War for nazi Germany, to be correct!
I agree with azmann. And the saddest thing is, that you missed the point of this statue. It is remainder of what happenes if people do not get along.
BTW: where the hell is administrator. This forum is one of the most rasist I have ever seen!
you must be new here…
This is freedom of speech. By discussing things openly then maybe you will learn something about the other side.
this is far from from discussing things…
Of course, this is how the Russian Euro-trash talks. They don't know any better and would prefer to be uncivil. Does it surprise anyone?
It's ugly ranting but it it freedom of speech. Better to get it out than suppress it.
If this is American idea of freedom of speech than I am not surprised why you have problems with Muslims, Afro-Americans etc. and the rest of the world. One thing is to have different opinion, but another thing is how you express it. And most of comments do not contribute anything to conversation, but are posted only to provoke.
That's the point. Once everyone gets bored with the provocative comments they will settle down and move onto something more peaceful.
You're getting the idea.
more shots :
To Washington:
Russian people in LATVIA and other Baltic states are not discriminated, if same Russian people keep order laws and respect our history, and do not to call as a fascists.With fascism we have not any relation.
Russians didn`t live in worse living conditions than Latvian people.
Russians discriminate itself, many russians principialy ddn`t want to get citizenship and learn official langunage.
Russians feels resentful, because they no more goveners there, and high-powered propoganda from Kremlin and local russian politics force this resentful feeling.
This problem is very complicated and emocional, and still while generation who experienced events from 1939 – 1991 will be alive.
Many, many russians(I not say all) is very agressive and violent. Sometimes in nights russian crowd walking down to Streets of Riga and other cities and says approximately that:
"You are Latvian?!"
And, if answer is positve they starts beating.
In prisons 85 % of prisoners is people russian nationality,and they are sentenced for very grave crimes, like a robberies, murderings and banditism.
You are NAZI, i tell it once again! And most crimes in Latvia made by Latvians. And you are responsible for crimes of Russians because you drive them in the poverty!
Russians can get job in Estonia because of nazi estonian government that support fascists!
Hey, do you know meaning of the word NAZI??!!!
Do you have any argumentation for your expresions???!
I think you are very shallow and dumb person like part of russians who are poor.
Many russians are very inteligent un not poor. Most of the businessmans are Russians, in top 100 richer people list most of them are russians.
But most of them are lazy and dumb, they didn`t want to get work, better they robber cell phones on streets or drinking illegal cheap vodka and beating other people.
cheap vodka
I not tell anything about your financial status, only about your understanding of situation and your narrow-minded NAZI expresions.
Where is your arguments that i am NAZI ?!!!
You are NAZI because you support nazi policy of your nazi government (oppressions on Russians and other minorities).
Russian people are discriminated in Estonia. They do not have citizenship, they are forbidden to study and work using their own language. Europe has double standards for Russian an Serbian people and all the rest. In Finland there is official second language because 4% of the population are Swedish. In Romania in Transilvania only hungarian language is used officially, because there live mostly Hungarians. Only Russians are forbidden to use their language, though in Estonia more than 25% of population are Russians.
The same could be said about the United States. If you want to go to college, a foreign language is a requirement in nearly every university.
I am a Finn too. For me studying Swedish was a no-brainer, even fun, and I have needed it too.
So puppeli: do not generalize by saying we if only you don't like Swedish.
Anna, could you tell us which are the official languages of Russia?
I think this language thing in Estonia works in both directions. Because the majority speaks Estonian, everybody should be able to speak and write it. And also because a large minority speaks Russian, it would be good if most Estonians could speak Russian.
I have been looking thru job announcements in Estonia. In all interesting vacancies the language requirement is Estonian and Russian. And if it is a sales job in Russian market I suppose an ethnic Russian would have an advantage compared to an Estonian.
This is the montage of the Bronze Soldier at his new location in the near future – Inner City cemetery where other war heroes are buried.
The soldier was not destroyed, only moved to another place.
Ha, and some say there is no fascism in Estonia. LOL
Estonians, stop your nazi policy of oppressions on Russians and other minorities! Stop nazi policy of your nazi government!
Estonia is a democracy, unlike the fascist regime you have in Russia.
Oh, comon. Anti-semitic and anti-Russian publications in estonian press are constant. Many people (ethnic minorities) in Estonia were limited in rights.
Ha Ha, some say there is none in Russia.
There is fascsm in Russia, but at least, it is not state sponsored as it is in Latvia.
Nazism and fascism are glorified in Estonia!
I ment Estonia, but it is also true of Latvia..
Blow me! 🙂
P.S. Can't chat, busy, should drink blood of Jewish and Russian children, backson.
Borah a.k.a. Sarah Levi-Alkolupukki
Do you know meaning of the word NAZI ?
Tell me your arguments, why you can call me as a NAZI !!
You are very shallow person. Thats person like a you starts all national conflitcs.
People drives in povetry itself, because they are shallowed and dumb like a you.
Many latvian people are poorly too, but they didnt go to steal
and beats people to take cell phones.
1. Russians were deprived of citizenship by Latvian and Estonian governments.
2. Russians can't get work because of Latvian / Estonian government. And they are driven into poverty.
3. Russians can't study on their language.
4. Russians were driven into poverty. 95% officials in Estonia and Latvia are Estonians and Latvians while they are about 60% of all population. Russians are forbidden to work in the official structures.
Borah a.k.a. Sarah Levi-Alkolupukki
Do you know meaning of the word NAZI ?
Tell me your arguments, why you can call me as a NAZI !!
You are very shallow person. Thats person like a you starts all national conflitcs.
People drives in povetry itself, because they are shallowed and dumb like a you.
Many latvian people are poorly too, but they didnt go to steal
and beats people to take cell phones.
Borah a.k.a. Sarah Levi-Alkolupukki
Do you know meaning of the word NAZI?
Tell me your arguments, why you can call me as a NAZI!!!!!
You are very shallow person. Thats person like a you starts all national conflitcs.
People drives in povetry itself, because they are shallowed and dumb like a you.
Many latvian people are poorly too, but they didnt go to steal
and beats people to take cell phones.
Take a look a those friendly allies …
speaks for itself, doesn't it?
Those pics are 70 years old.
you utterly miss the point of these pictures, don't you?
There is no relevancy to today. Those people are no longer alive.
I wish you were right. But it is relevant because there are people alive who do remember. This is a difficult subject. The peoples of these areas have been subjected to titanic forces that some people, particularly Americans, do not understand.
no relevancy? these two events – the erection of the Bronze Soldier and the invasion of Poland are only 8 years apart. no relevancy? dear texas1, think again. and this time – do think.
Damn, you people really know how to live in the past.
this is what a typical protester looked like ….
Brothel and lack of order always cause violence, aggression and other bad things that usually are hidden. That is a fault of those who provoked these protests: estonian goverment.
Anna!!!! My friend!!!!! My second me!!!!!
The estonian government has acted SO awkwardly!
I am russian in Estonian.I learn estonian,work here,have a chlidrens and….
I DONT see and feel diskriminations in Estonia.
I like live here.
MR.ANSIP and the Goverment Estonia make litle mistake:
The soldiers should be removed many years ago, but Estonia was hoping in the integration russians in the estonia.
Russians.What language you use: very BAD!
You are not Russian. And stop making mistakes in your English to simulate non-native user of English!
Estonians, stop your nazi policy of oppressions on Russians and other minorities! Stop nazi policy of your nazi government!
Borah, you are outnumbered. Does that tell you anything?
The point is even not the relations between Russia and Estonia, but that Estonia discriminates one quarter of ITS OWN population and the western countries prefer not to notice it!
@ Anna
Let's make love not war.
Russian president suggested memorial and massgrave should be moved to Russia, but estonian goverment disagreed.
The world doesn't hate Russians. The world to hates Nazi Fascists like you and your nazi government!
Are you sure?
Il bet you 3 out of 5 people in ANY European/American country will say they hate (or dislike) russians because of:
*Russia is not democratic (well yea you have elections… but then you jail all your oposing partys)
*Russia is broke (over 70% in Russia live in poverty)
*Russia is full of alcoholics (on average a Russian drinks 8 times more alcohol than anyone else, every last year at least 10.000 people die from alcohol overdoze in russia)
*Russia opresses its nebiours (baltic states are a drop in the sea, compared to russian south-eastern neibours)
*Russia is throughy corrupt (an average policeman in Russia gets more money from bribes in a week that hes months pay)
And many more reasons…
That's not true. Most americans if asked would indicate that Russia is an alli.
I am sorry can you clarify how exactlly modern Russia oppresses Baltic states?
Baltic media propoganda is doing all it can to discredit russia government. Why?
Russian is not your Enemy!! Soviet Union is gone! Wake up man, cold war is over. Do not encourage another one!!!
"The world hates Russian" – I really don't think many countries hate Russia. THE world hate US -yes, not Russia. 🙂
coMMon people: we need to concentrate on real issues here: which is … the muslims; by 2045 french muslims will declare JIHAD on the republican state of alaska which will result in complete takeover due to thier exponetial growth and inability of alaskan prime minister 'Um!ataini Islam to supress crowds of violent alaskan minoritie comonly referred to whitta_mussaraa;
dont worry : in 2 weeks all estonians will be dead or pregnant; i will visit their maturnetie clinics or graves and will maybe even leave my svd(tiger) and condoms on/at one off them to pay respects to brave estonina people; endeed a worthy enemie, and most importantly a very good friend i any cases;
But you`re too poor to even buy a condom.
nono .. im not russia; i german – i have a condom;
to all you russians, I really begin to see your point, which is that…
[1]In the beginning the Big Great Russian created the heaven and the earth.
[2]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of the Big Great Russian moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And the Big Great Russian said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And the Big Great Russian saw the light, that it was good: and the Big Great Russian divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And the Big Great Russian called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
[6] And the Big Great Russian said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And the Big Great Russian made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And the Big Great Russian called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
[9] And the Big Great Russian said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
[10] And the Big Great Russian called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and the Big Great Russian saw that it was good.
[11] And the Big Great Russian said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and the Big Great Russian saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.
[14] And the Big Great Russian said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And the Big Great Russian made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And the Big Great Russian set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and the Big Great Russian saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
[20] And the Big Great Russian said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
[21] And the Big Great Russian created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and the Big Great Russian saw that it was good.
[22] And the Big Great Russian blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
[24] And the Big Great Russian said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[25] And the Big Great Russian made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[26] And the Big Great Russian said, Let us make man, A Lesser But Still A Mighty Russian in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and, of course, over every nation in the world which he can bully.
[27] So the Big Great Russian created man in his own image, in the image of the Big Great Russian created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And the Big Great Russian blessed them, and the Big Great Russian said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[29] And the Big Great Russian said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat; and every little nation thou canst bully shalt be thine to bully.
[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
[31] And the Big Great Russian saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day the Big Great Russian ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Then, the following week, he thought that he would invent the radio, the telephone, the steam-engine and other useful gadgets ….
Ya! Ha ha. That's about the time the big great Russian said screw it, we'll just try to copy the US.
LMAO – at both posts. Brilliant!
хуя тут каментаф,как на удаве
хорошая тема,фтыкаем
You are an estonian nazi scum! I don't wanna even talk with you! Death to the fascists!
Shame on you Estonia for rewriting history!
Shame on you Estonia for forgetting how you helped Hitler build concentration camps where Jewish woman and children were starved and burned alive!
Same on you Estonians for making old and frail ethnic Russians learn you difficult language, or stay in poverty!
Shame on you Estonia for discriminating and incriminating ethnic Russians who just want to earn enough to stay alive!
Shame on you Estonia for allowing racism, nationalism and anti-Semitism in the media!
Shame on you Estonia for distributing propaganda and lies about good Russian people.
And, shame on you Estonia for manipulating and brainwashing your own people to hate Russia, in order to win some political points with the US.
You can lie all you want, and make Russia appears as bad as you like. But good people will know who are the real victims of your repressive state!
Russian people – we are with you on your difficult fight against nazism.
A friend from Elat.
You are forgetting that over 12 millions of Russians (not army but civilians) were killed by Germans.
Stop playing childish.
There were about 4.2 millions of repressed during Staling times. 2 millions of them died.
During ww2 13 millions people died in the battles against nazi Germany. About 12 millions civilians were murdered by Germans. 3,5 millions were taken to German death camps.
After WW2 less than 1 million of crimean tatars and chechenians were not killed but sent to Kazahstan because they were collaborating with Germans.
Estonia should be kicked out of EU, until it can learn to respect other nationalities, combat fanatical Nazism, Anti-Semitism and stop repressing ethnic minorities!!
Good day>
Everyone knows that Estonians were collaborating with Nazists and fought on the Nazi German side. Shame on you!
Now Estonians continue oppressions on minorities in Estonia.
Why they've decided to move monument right before The Day of Victory? Why did they refuse to move this monument to Russia?
Why does nazi SS veterans march freely in Estonia?
The answer is simple! Nazi Estonian government just want to continue oppressions on Russians and other minorities!
You are a perfect example of brainwashing. Millions of Estonians? Ha-ha… Propaganda at its best. Brainwashing….
The millins of people part was a typo, a mistake (thousands of people were still killed). But are you saying that my grandparents are lying and my father wasn't born in Syberia and wasn't starving there? (just brainwashing me!?) You are the one that's feeding lies to the people here, so that the riot would go on and Russia would have another reason to take dumps on Estonia…
russia refused to accept that monument.
"Same on you Estonians for making old and frail ethnic Russians learn you difficult language, or stay in poverty!"
Yeah, but how about the young and strong?
In my opinion you learn whatever language in 15 years, if you want to.
Good news! You have access to the internet and no longer have to read the Russian Government's propaganda.
so we're responsible for the deaths of russians during WWII? and before that? c'mon, we're a nation of perhaps one million ethnic estonians, and before WWII there were not too many russians living here. How are we responsible? There are a hundred and fifty times as many russians as there are estonians; the terretory of modern russia is more than 350 times larger than estonia's territory.
Maybe those Russians were really dumb and didn't know ho to duck.
im not talking about territory or population size: it is irrelevant to what i said;
Do people still name their kids Igor? I thought that name was just reserved for old vampire movies.
Please vote!
Estonia was always a part of Russian Empire. So in 1940 they just took back what once belonged to them.
not always – we have formerly been annexed by the germans, danish, swedes…
those people, who were considered as the educated side of estonians (lydia koidula, hurt etc) were thinking about independent estonia back in 1860-s. Why the hell did we have a first songfestival then? even then, 1869, we sung about freedom. And that's like….60 years before we actually were independent. nobody even KNEW about lenin, yet.
no it wasnt.
estonian educators thought about independent estonia before lenin, back 1869, we had the first song festival and even then we sung about freedom. nobody knew nothing about lenin.
Firstly, the picture of the "Bronce soldier" is fake! On the internet you can read and see the real thing about it. The estonian government removed the statue away in one piece. And is safetly guarded until the end of the riots.
secondly, the dead russian was killed by an another russian.
And the soldier wasn't moved away because of The Day of Victory, it was caused by the riot in Tallin. The government decided to remove the statue to keep away further riots.
Do you think that this is protecting a monument,when people just start lifting shops,burn everything on their way and tear busstops apart?! That is just pure VANDALISM!
The people who are vandalizing on the streets of Tallin are mostly jung russian-spoken drunken teenagers,with them is easy to manipulate. That's the reason why TEACHERS bring 10 to 14 aged children to the monument and tell them to scream out loud that estonians are fascists! Those teachers teach the children the history what they want,not what's true and what the rest of the world knows.
Do any of you have any idea what the statue symolizes? For your information,when the russians came to "free" Estonia, it already was a free country, so they occupied Estonia and THIS is what the bronze soldier simbolizes!
Have any of you seen what the vandals have done in Estonia in last two nights? You have been blinded, you haven't seen the real thing, because media shows only what russian media shows. I give you a link, where you can see all that,what FREE media from all over the world shows.
Look very carefully the second video, how the vandals are stealing! Is there any excuse of stealing?! NO!
In conclusion, do not believe anything what you read,what is based on russian media!
Estonia propoganda has now reached English Russia well and truly. The russian died due to brutal force that was used by police, which incidentaly doesn't even compare to the force used in Kasparov rally..
Many more people, including woman and childern are now injured and many more can die>
You don't hear this in Blatic press, do you? I wonder why???
People of lativia, – stop this ridiculous and groundless hate towards Russian people. They have also been repressed under soviet regime, and they certanlly do not deserve to be blamed for the things done by soviet despots.
Stop reading your biased and nationalist newspapers controlled by CIA, and be friends with russian people!!
Our world is getting smaller than ever. We will soon live as one whether you like it or not. So lets start getting on with one another now, to save us all a shock of living in a unipolar world!!!
Good day 🙂
The russian was stabbed to death. I didn`t know policemen carried knives.
Another lamb brainwashed by the Russian propaganda you are.
Sure, that's what Estonian authorities say. They also denied the use of excessive force.. 🙂
Do you honestly think they will admit to it??
Man, you've been brainwashed beyond redemption…;)
PS: I am not russian. And I certainly can't be brainwashed by "Russian propaganda", because i don't even live in Russia..lol!!
The looter that got killed, was stabbed by another dumb (and probably drunk) looter (or "bronze soldier protector", if you will) as himself.
The criminal investigation has been started, and the killer will be put in jail for many years.
Basically all injuries that have been reported on the rioters side, were on their heads or hands and caused by the shattered glass when they broke the windows of the shops to loot them. Many these so called "bronze soldier protectors" were even so dumb to smile to the cameras with the loot that they grabbed from the shops. The pictures are all over the internet. All this evidende material is collected by the police, and the looters will get their punishment.
so the police had to sit back, give a candy to those vandalists and say:"oh you're a good boy, aren't you?"
of course they needed to use force, but trust me, they didn't overdo it. in other parts of world the police is even worse. and in the situation of crisis, you need to act fast.
Well lets see.
Now, I wonder where the media could be more influenced by government – in Estonia or in Russia?
In the Reporters Without Borders "Worldwide press freedom index":
Estonia is ranked 6th free media worldwide. Where is russian media? Ranked 147 out of 168 countries. Just a tad better ranking than Belorussia, the last dictatorship in Europe.
How about economic freedom?
In the Heritage Foundations "Index of Economic Freedom" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_economic_freedom#Index_of_Economic_Freedom_2
Estonia is ranked 7th Free Economy of the World, whereas Russia is 122th position out of 157 countries, preceeded even by still communistic China and many African countries.
How about corruption?
In the Transparency International's "Corruption Perceptions Index" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Index#Alphabetical_listing
Estonia is ranked 24th least corrupt out of 163. Where is Russia? It is 121st, just on the par with many African countries.
Make your own conclusions about the level of democracy in the countries and the reliability of the messages spread to the public by the press.
Now, I wonder where the media could be more influenced by government – in Estonia or in Russia?
In the Reporters Without Borders "Worldwide press freedom index":
Estonia is ranked 6th free media worldwide. Where is russian media? Ranked 147 out of 168 countries. Just a tad better ranking than Belorussia, the last dictatorship in Europe.
How about economic freedom?
In the Heritage Foundations "Index of Economic Freedom" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_economic_freedom#Index_of_Economic_Freedom_2
Estonia is ranked 7th Free Economy of the World, whereas Russia is 122th position out of 157 countries, preceeded even by still communistic China and many African countries.
How about corruption?
In the Transparency International's "Corruption Perceptions Index" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Index#Alphabetical_listing
Estonia is ranked 24th least corrupt out of 163. Where is Russia? It is 121st, just on the par with many African countries.
Make your own conclusions about the level of democracy in these countries and the reliability of the messages spread to the public by the press.
I forgot to tell you two more things.
Did you really thought that estonians went to german army voluntarily or to russian red army?! Ofcourse not, they were forced to.
I have heard a story about a young boy, who was forced to go to the german army, but the older men started to think that it is not a right thing to bring such an inocent and young boy to the battlefield. So they pushed him out of the truck in a curve. Then the boy ran away and some nice ladies gave him some of their clothes,so he could hide himself and go home. So he walked home about 200 kilometres until he reached home.
And did you know that russian army took estonians to Siberia in animal carriages and left them to die?! And gave their homes to russian people, so when some of the estonians, who had survived this "trip" and the long prisonment in Siberia, couldn't go back to home?!
Hi baby
Here`s a history lesson for you commies out there.
Where the hell did you take the idea that estonians want to destroy the bronze soldier or the fallen ones. The third picture is just a picture tuning. The monument is NOT destroyed it's just taken to a military cementary where it really belongs and the fallen ones are also taken to cementary to bury them like normal people(not in the center of a capital city where youngsters like to drink and hang out).
Just read those comments and you understand that this what is shown on russian media is just to make the russians more angry . It's not the complete story, they only show those videos and pictures the want but just take a look at the following link at the end of may comment.
Great pictures! This kind of stuff happens all the time in America.
absurd thought –
God of the Universe says
outlaw photography
filming state violence
is a crime against the state
Huh? Are you using a bad translator or do you not know how to make a point?
all is well under the milky way tonight
Look at these pictures! here you can see drunk joungsters vandalizing. Most of them russians, who are being blinded with russian media and can't see the truth!
Is this normal?!?! :/
Do not discriminate the national minority: give them citizenship, equal rights to get a job, equal rights to save their language, culture and nationality, as all the normal Europe does; express respect to their dead relatives. Do not provoke the chaos and aggression, do not split your own country! And then there will not be such accidents.
anna, in order for them to feel free to live in estonia, they HAVE to OBEY to SOME RULES, like, ACTUALLY SPEAKING the LANGUAGE. if the speak the language, they have the equal rights to get a job. to save their language????? who the hell is stopping them?
the problem is they do not want the citizenship anyway, the reasons have been discussed many times in this thread.
they want to live in russia, but with EU privileges.
i'd say it's a true point indeed.
they want estonia to be a part of russia, it seems like that.
but, they know /or well, maybe they dont't/ the way their natives live in russia, and therefore, they tought: oh let's see, well, I want to live better than my uncle in novosibirsk, I'll go to estonia. I won't apply for a citizenship, but I expect all the pros since i'm from the EX-soviet union. you know, the master's kind of thing.
It probably is normal. Russia has a large population of gopnics who would rather get drunk and vandalize than do something productive.
I'd like to say sth about these 3 aspects.
2. Russians can't get work because of Latvian / Estonian government. And they are driven into poverty.
3. Russians can't study on their language.
4. Russians were driven into poverty. 95% officials in Estonia and Latvia are Estonians and Latvians while they are about 60% of all population. Russians are forbidden to work in the official structures.
Tell me please, in which country you can get a good job, when you don't speak it's language.
And that's not true, that russians can't study in their language in Estonia. In schools you can study in russian,but it's good to know the offial language of the country too. And because the estonian government enabled schools to give education in russian,caused that a large number of russian don't speak estonian. But that's not the only reason. Russians DON'T WANT to study estonian. So they are causing themselves problems.
Look, after Estonia independenced, it has had rough times. The people were poor and etc, but they didn't steal! They made themselves marmelade and growd potatoes and cereals.
It is possible to study in your own language in school/university in: Finland(if you are Swedish), Romania (if you are Hungarian), probably many other countries, I am talking only about those that I know for sure. If the percentage of national minority is higher than some certain limit.
in every country, the school's educational system is its own governments decision. why should they learn in russian? can estonians in russia learn in estonia? they can't, since they are not given chance, the number of estonian lessons in russia is about 1-2 per week, but the number of russian lessons is well…certainly bigger. get the point?
It sounds like the Russians provoked it.
According to the US State Department:
January 22, 2007
COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Estonia is a stable democracy with a rapidly developing economy. Tourist facilities in Tallinn are comparable to other western European cities, but some amenities may be lacking in rural areas. Some goods and services may not be available outside of major cities. Please read the Department of State Background Notes on Estonia for additional information.
ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: A valid passport is required. Tourists and business travelers may stay in Estonia for up to 90 days within a six-month period without a visa. U.S. citizens who wish to work in Estonia or remain longer than 90 days must obtain a visa or residence permit for themselves and any family members who will be living with them in Estonia. For further information concerning entry requirements and residency permits, contact the Estonian Embassy, located at 2131 Massachusetts Ave., N.W., Washington, D.C. 20008, telephone (202) 588-0101, or the Consulate General of Estonia in New York City, telephone (212) 883-0636. See our Foreign Entry Requirements brochure for more information on Estonia and other countries. Visit the Embassy of Estonia web site at http://www.estemb.org for the most current visa information.
See Entry and Exit Requirements for more information pertaining to dual nationality and the prevention of international child abduction. Please refer to our Customs Information to learn more about customs regulations.
SAFETY AND SECURITY: Civil unrest is not a problem in Estonia, and there have been no incidents of terrorism directed toward American interests. Large public gatherings and demonstrations may occur on occasion, caused mainly by domestic political issues.
During periods of darkness, reflectors must be worn by pedestrians. Violators of this law may be subject to a fine of up to 600 EEK ($50.00). Reflectors are inexpensive and are available at most supermarkets and many smaller shops. To meet legal requirements, the reflector's packaging must include a reference to European safety standard EN13356.
For the latest security information, Americans traveling abroad should regularly monitor the Department's Internet web site where the current Worldwide Caution Public Announcement, Travel Warnings and Public Announcements can be found. Americans are reminded to remain vigilant with regard to their personal security and to exercise caution.
Up-to-date information on safety and security can also be obtained by calling 1-888-407-4747 toll free in the U.S., or for callers outside the U.S. and Canada, a regular toll-line at 1-202-501-4444. These numbers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time, Monday through Friday (except U.S. federal holidays).
The Department of State urges American citizens to take responsibility for their own personal security while traveling overseas. For general information about appropriate measures travelers can take to protect themselves in an overseas environment, see the Department of State's pamphlet A Safe Trip Abroad.
CRIME: Estonia is a relatively safe country, although crime in Tallinn's "Old Town" is an ongoing concern, particularly during the summer tourist season. Travelers should exercise the same precautions with regard to their personal safety and belongings they would take in major U.S. cities. The most common crimes encountered by foreign tourists are purse snatching, pick-pocketing, and mugging. Tourists are often targeted by individuals and small groups of thieves working together. In public places such as the Town Hall Square ("Raekoja Plats") airport, train stations, and the Central Market, one must exercise special care in safeguarding valuables against purse-snatchers and pickpockets. Valuables should never be left unattended in vehicles and car doors should be kept locked at all times. Some violent crime does occur, mainly at night and often in proximity to nightlife areas. Car theft and break-ins also continue to be a problem in Tallinn.
Police capabilities in Estonia are improving, but still suffer from lack of equipment, training, personnel and resources. Many police officers speak only very limited English. Credit card fraud is an ongoing concern, as is internet-based financial fraud and "internet dating" fraud. Travelers should take prudent precautions to safeguard their credit cards and report any suspected unauthorized transaction to the credit card company immediately. Racially motivated verbal harassment and, on occasion, physical assault of Americans and other nationals of non-Caucasian ethnicity has occurred. If an incident occurs, it should be reported to the police and to the Embassy.
INFORMATION FOR VICTIMS OF CRIME: The loss or theft of a U.S. passport abroad should be reported immediately to the local police and the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate. If you are the victim of a crime while overseas, in addition to reporting to local police, please contact the nearest U.S. Embassy or Consulate for assistance. The Embassy/Consulate staff can, for example, assist you to find appropriate medical care, contact family members or friends and explain how funds could be transferred. Although the investigation and prosecution of the crime is solely the responsibility of local authorities, consular officers can help you to understand the local criminal justice process and to find an attorney if needed.
See our information on Victims of Crime.
MEDICAL FACILITIES AND HEALTH INFORMATION: The quality of medical care in Estonia continues to improve but still falls short of Western standards. Estonia has many highly trained medical professionals, but hospitals and clinics still suffer from a lack of equipment and resources. Elderly travelers and those with health problems may be at increased risk. Visitors to forest areas in warm weather should also guard against tick-borne encephalitis.
Information on vaccinations and other health precautions, such as safe food and water precautions and insect bite protection, may be obtained from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's hotline for international travelers at 1-877-FYI-TRIP (1-877-394-8747) or via the CDC's Internet site at http://www.cdc.gov/travel. For information about outbreaks of infectious diseases abroad consult the World Health Organization's (WHO) website at http://www.who.int/en. Further health information for travelers is available at http://www.who.int/ith.
MEDICAL INSURANCE: The Department of State strongly urges Americans to consult with their medical insurance company prior to traveling abroad to confirm whether their policy applies overseas and whether it will cover emergency expenses such as a medical evacuation. Please see our information on medical insurance overseas.
Ha ha.. Texas1, come on be serious now. What other analisis can you sxpect from US State Department?? LOL
You didn't give me a very objective source of information in relation to this case, did you???
That's typical of him, relying on information hand fed to him by his government.
Sounds like Russia is more of a fascist country than Estonia. According to the US State Department:
COUNTRY DESCRIPTION: Estonia is a stable democracy with a rapidly developing economy.
SAFETY AND SECURITY: Civil unrest is not a problem in Estonia, and there have been no incidents of terrorism directed toward American interests. Large public gatherings and demonstrations may occur on occasion, caused mainly by domestic political issues.
During periods of darkness, reflectors must be worn by pedestrians. Violators of this law may be subject to a fine of up to 600 EEK ($50.00). Reflectors are inexpensive and are available at most supermarkets and many smaller shops. To meet legal requirements, the reflector's packaging must include a reference to European safety standard EN13356.
I don't want to read all the comments and sorry if someone already told it, but the soldier is totally removed. There are no boots or stones and this is WRONG picture. Don't you see, it's PHOTOSHOP :S!!!
Screw the ass backward fascist government of Russia.
Why is the Russian govenment fascist?? Or are you back to the insults again because you've got nothing intelligent to say?? 😉
I like this Kala. I hope all of these Estonians stick around for a long time.
actually I wanted to ask the foreigners (non-russians) who visit this site.
how many of you actually believe the news in russian mass media and how it's served?
The world knows that the news in Russia is controlled by the government and that the facts get grossly distorted. The weird thing is that even though Russians have access to the Internet, they still believe in the propaganda the Russian government produces.
The U.S produces just as much propoganda and controls media even more, it's just not as blatant so that people like you can believe they live in a real democracy. You are a puppet of the illuminati just like everyone else. It's funny that you have access to the internet but still go to the Departement of State to get your facts on Estonia.
Great comment even if you are AmericaPhobe.
Great comment!
It's very sad that dirty politicians enlarges their ratings using such dirty methods. They use us all.
I just laugh at people who are blaming the police for using excessive force.
They are vandals who are destroying public property, throwing molotov-coctails at people in restaurants, etc.
After all that they`ve done, they cry about police brutality. Damn cavemen these russians are.
Police is nothing, it is just an instrument in the hands of the goverment. And estonian goverment is the one to blame. If the national minority would be treated there as Estonia was their motherland, not made them social outcasts, then they would behave differently.
but IT IS not your motherland?!
Russians lived on their land included into Estonia in 1918 at least 300 years. Are they natives? Of course! Are they occupiers? No! Why Russians as natives should leave their native land included in modern Estonia?
Estonia in modern borders appeared after Bolshevik revolution, when Russian land with Russian population were voluntary included into Estonia. If Estonians want have nothing with Bolsheviks and Russians, then they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
Fennica, actually i don't see a reason to talk with you. You portrait Russians and Russia in only one way – as evil. Your opinion is based on prejudice, you don't accept facts. so the result of the discussion for you will be the same.
Russians don't have to leave their native land. If Estonians want Russians to leave – they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
umm, estonians had been living here before them, may I remind You? like someone already said, the first settlement in estonia is dated back to 10000 years.
secondly, russians are a group in slavic people. estonians belong with finns. thus they're also calling the languages the way they do it, slavic and finno-ugric. if You can't accept the facts then it is not our problem, now is it? secondly, if YOU don't like the way things are (and if You happen to be a russian federation citizen, not speaking estonian etc etc) then I suggest moving, since You obviously don't want to be here.
The good news is, that there is a big hope, that all the vandals are sending out from country. This is good, we do not need people like that (NB! I am not againts russians, I have friend who are russians and who love estonia).
It is impossible to send out from country those who were born and spent all their life there. This is in conradiction with international norms. Where are you going to send them? To the moon?
The moon is not a bad idea for the hooligans. But, I remember Putin talking about attracting ethnic Russians to return to the motherland due to the demographic problems in Russia. It makes me think that Russians who are living in the Baltics could immigrate to Russia if they wanted to. You can't really critisize Estonia and Latvia for trying to create conditions to encourage Russians to want to leave. The looting and hooliganism is another matter. In my opinion it was instigated by the hysterical nature of reporting in the Russian media of the simple relocation of a monument. Unfortunately, this is typical Russian behavior.
Who are you to decide where people should live and where they should migrate? Stalin maybe? Many of those Russians in Estonia lived there all their life and were born there-where should they go and why?
yes, they were born here, but still, they refuse to accept the terms in order to become citizens. and they call out russia, russia! , is that what we should consider as a person who wants to become estonian citizen?
actually, people who are born in estonia, but who's parents are both russian citizens are born as russian citizens.
things aren't the way they are in ireland, not everybody who is born here, will be given citizenship.
One third of 30% of russians don't have citizenship in Estonia — well, it still means that about 20% of population do not have. That means, that at least every fifth person in the country is "enemy", "occupant", "bad guy", does not have a right to vote – what kind of society you expect to be in Estonia? While he/she lived in Estonia all the life and is not guilty about the latest history. Why should they apply for Russian citizenship, if they never lived there?!
but if they want to have a citizenship, they have to speak the language, accept the rules etc. and if they don't have the citizenship, then it can be said that his/hers parents didn't want the citizenship of estonia too.
If they don't want Russian citizenship they should quit calling themselves Russian and live as Estonian.
Anna, I heard that like 40 or smth people are gonna send out. So, and they are all russians which means that they are going back to russia where they belong and where they unfortunally are treated like heroes after all they've done in estonia.
Probably they are Russian citizens or tourists, but you present your "news" as a kind of sensation. And that quarter of population that is ethnic russians will stay in Estonia.
let's calm down now.
I would also like to point out some facts that the Russian media probably doesn't talk about.
First – the Estonian official point of view is not what is written here. The Estonian official point of view is that it's a monument to the Soviet Union. Yes, they drove fascists away from here and that's good, but the Soviets deportated about 40 000 innocent people to Siberia, destroyed our state (and by the way, also hundreds of Estonian monuments. Nobody had the right to protest then). It was all done by the soldiers just like the one in the statue.
Secondly – the statue will be rebuilt in a few days in a cemetary. Isn't it logical that graves should be there? And the Soviets never restored the statues they demolished.
Thirdly – the person killed in Tallinn was not killed by police. He was wounded by knife, probably by another protester. And anyway, what happened in Tallinn was mostly just breaking windows, robbing shops (expensive clothes, alcohol, tobacco etc.) and such thing doesn't have to do much with politics. Some criminals just saw a possibility to rob and vandalize.
Fourthly – we're not fascists. If we're agains the USSR, it doesn't make us fascists, otherwise you should call like that also the USA during the Cold War, for excemple 🙂
and I would also like to say that I have nothing against Russians in general, neither do my friends. Peace!
for the Russians: bud'te spokojny, monument budet na kladbishche uzhe zavtra ili poslezavtra. Mesto etogo nebyla v centre, potomu chto Estonija sama ne hotela v SSSR, my tozhe ne hoteli fashistkuju Germaniju. My ne fashisty i ne sovety, my estoncy. Ne verite tol'ko svoju oficialnuju mediju 🙂 i u nas net nechego protiv russkogo naroda.
Tauno, Estonia
has anybody noticed that the moment they removed alcohol, the riots lessened?
LOL! So in other words, if you want to stop a Russian riot offer free alcohol across town. Brilliant!
I'll second that.
I knew there was something rotten about her.
Hey Dubya, shouldn't you be working instead of reading propaganda?
i was just answering to your question. they are not going to the moon doh.
"I for one would like more that Russia is respected for being liable and honest partner in all sferes of life…" for selling its oil for peanuts to everybody, for buying from Poland its meet even if it doesn't need it and for shutting up in front of the US…
Oups, I am SO brainwashed!
This is how protecting the monument by the "freedom fighters" happened most of the time:
This is the police site to get names of guys who stole and broke shops. And it's also a good site for all the employers, to check if some of they have made some bad employment choices. Or for parents to check if their kids should get some good slap.
Poor "protecters", they were in such a hurry to grab free alcohol so NOT ONE of them noticed how big truck came and took the statue away. Tell me, you freedom fighters, how this could happen? I can tell you: it was the measure of your honour of IIWW – there was none of it, only fool youngsters who just wanted some fun and free alcohol.
Eh, vy, osvoboditeli 🙂 Come visit Tartu for couple of days and you'll see that there's absolutely no nazism is Estonia.
Russians lived on their land included into Estonia in 1918 at least 300 years. Are they natives? Of course! Are they occupiers? No! Why Russians as natives should leave their native land included in modern Estonia?
Estonia in modern borders appeared after Bolshevik revolution, when Russian land with Russian population were voluntary included into Estonia. If Estonians want have nothing with Bolsheviks and Russians, then they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
Russians don't have to leave their native land. If Estonians want Russians to leave – they should return Russian lands that were included into Estonia by Bolsheviks.
Good point Borah!!
Where did it say we want to drive out native russians? Russian news?
Eejit, russians who lived within our borders – and their descendants – have as clear a claim at Estonian citizenship as estonians, no questions asked. Coincidentially, estonians who don't meet this simple requirement have to go through the naturalization process as well (my grandmother's estonian but was born in Ukraine, so she had to take the dreaded languague test for her citizenship).
Please point out whish areas, preferrably russian-populated, were falsely claimed by Estonia at first independence. Remember that russians made up 8% of our population, with vast majority living in larger cities.
O ye of little brains.
actually it's a little bit more complicated with the Russian community in Estonia. There actually is a small native Russian community here, the "old-believers" (starovercy), who fled to Estonia during the rule of Peter I (they were discriminated in Russia because they didn't accept some religious reforms). These Russians have kept their language, religion etc. through centuries, but they have always supported Estonians.
Most of the Russians who live in Estonia nowadays moved here during the Soviet period. This community is relatively very new, numerous and immigrated during a short period, that's why many of these people still mentally live in Russia. As a prove I can say that in 1932, before the Soviet occupation, Russians made up 8,2% of the Estonian population, in 1998 they were 28,1%.
As for the argument that "Russia took back their territory", it's historically not true. Czarist Russia invaded Estonia from Sweden in 1710, but Estonians have always been in majority here. Estonia gained its independence in 1918 and it was NOT a present from Lenin, Estonia had to go through a hard war, the Estonian Liberty War agaist Soviet Russia in 1918-1920. In the Soviet time that war was "forbidden history", so the monuments for the soldiers fallen there were systematically destroyed, Russia has never said even sorry for that.
so much about the history then. But as for the third picure in this post, the missing broze soldier, I can say for sure that it's a fake because the site was covered by a tent before removing the statue and is still covered. So there has been not even a hypothetical possibility to take such a picture.
and the blames in anti-Semitism are not true either. A few years ago Russia claimed that there was some anti-Semitism in Estonia and Latvia, probably you heard this through the Russian media, but the chief of the Estonian Jewish Community, Ms. Cilja Laud answered that they're glad Russia worries about them, but fortunately they have had no problems here and the society is very tolerant. Similar answer came also from the Latvian Jewish Community. I think the Russian media never talked about that.
and finally – just a few days ago the Azerbaijan Community in Estonia declared that Estonia is very tolerant towards the minorities. These are the facts.
Thanks for showing how twisted Russian views on history are.
What is the most interesting is that none of European politicians said a word about the events (except from the american marionettes from Baltic), and most of the news canals tried to avoid writing about these events. This shows, how much all the world and especially western politicians are afraid of USA.
Simple, reason, little girl – it's No Big Deal. Just because your beloved leaders froth at their mouths going on and on about it doesn't mean it's actually newsworthy.
well, I have seen some news about it when searching from the Internet. I found an article in New York Times Online and much more in BBC, they also have interesting discussions there.
As for the politicians, Javier Solana has supported Estonia from the EU side. There has also been support you mentioned from Latvia and Lithuania, of course. As far as I know, the German chancellor Angela Merkel has called both sides to remain reasonable. Poland, Sweden and Finland have declared that this problem is an internal affair of Estonia and doesn't concern other countries (ironical, that Putin has recently said that other countries are trying to influence the Russian internal affairs. Don't you think that Russia should show an excemple then? 🙂
anyway, I also agree that in the scale of the world or even Europe it's nothing so important. What else should the world leaders say?
If 1/100 of this deal would have happened in Russia or Belorussia, your beloved leaders would have probably "froth at their mouths going on and on about it", no doubt.
have they ever?
hell, we could ban all russian goods, in theory. we wouldn't lose much. only that we are grown-ups, not babies in a sandbox, so we won't.
Case closed.
It was televised in the UK. Politicians in the US haven't said anything about it. It happened over the weekend. What do you expect, a major news conference during primetime television? Be serious.
i wasted an hour of my time reading this garbage. ebnutai mudaki.
I have allways wondered why russians hate estonians and other baltics so much. But I guess they are simply jealous: Baltics = EU, democracy, freedom to travel, etc. Russia = Putin. Which one would you choose?
In Estonia and Lithuania both presidents have american citizenship, and in Lithuania the prime minister is, and in Latvia the president has canadian one. Doesn't it mean something, how do you think? 😉
sorry, in Lithuania only the president, I don't know about the prime minister
Putin had rank of colonel in KGB, that certanly means something.
At least in his own country… Are Baltic countries really that independent?…
And Lithuanian president was fighting in WWII on the Nazi side in 1944 in Tevynes Apsaugos Rinktine, do you know that?
have you got specifically anything against people who have learned in US and Canada or it's just common jealousy?
Me??? 🙂
I love everyone and dream about peace in all the world! 🙂
My point was just that there is no particular dislike between Russians and Baltic countries, but rather between Russia and their… supervizor 😉
heh, how come the russians don't pick on the "supervisor" then instead of attacking the much weaker neighbours:)
Who is _attacking_ the weaker neighbours? 😮
Nobody would care about them if they would not have discriminated people with Russian nationality.
well according to international law there is no discrimination, so you'll have to shed your tears in strasbourg court, of course, that's in case they aren't plotting another conspiratorial conspiracy against russia.
american citizenship??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
sorry, BUT YOU CANNOT STEP UP AS A FUTURE PRESIDENT IN ESTONIA UNLESS YOU HAVE A ESTONIAN CITIZENSHIP!
How about Himki?
Sir, you are so correct! I couldn't have said it better myself!
there is no re-written history, just the amount which was "forgotten" to be taught at soviet time, not to mention the warped perspectives…
in my 10th grade history book nothing happened between 1918 and 1939, and suddenly just like that *snap* a commie "revolution" in 1940.
no word on Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact either.
Thanks you Tanya for your oppinion. You are the most calm and wise in all this topic. I agree with you, with every word. Im against that barbaric marauding in Tallin and those who provoked it.
By the way i think people is a bit overactin about that *propoganda* in russia media. Freedom of writing doesnt allways mean they write true facts, but nobody force tham to write in that way… Ofcourse they are just flaming more anger in russian people, but, o well, those are not propogdndic at all.
PS. I am a russian myself, and learning estonian for my citizenship.
PS. 16 years old
There ARE Russian-speaking schools in Estonia, so the Russians CAN get education in their own language
Well they are soon to be closed\transfered arent they ?
not closed or transferred, but since the number of students has been decreasing they have to unite different russian-language based schools.
You and Kala are awesome! Please stick around. to help deprogram all of the brainwashed Russians.
Organizers of Tallin's attack :
This is one good photo edit 😀 , this monument was not removed …just placed on another place!! For more quiet place than inner citys rush.
Please get your facts straight. Less than 10% of Estonian exports go to Russia, allready over 80% of it goes to EU.
And I think EU naturally should show some solidarity to it´s member states.
I'm not saying that if I walk on the street and see an Estonian, I punch him in his face and scream out FASCIST!, I'm talking about the government mostly.
And I also agree that if you want to live and work in the Estonia, you must learn Estonian. But it's only in Estonia, you know. Russian and English are mostly needed all over the world and Estonian isn't.
Estonia is too much "Americanized" if I may say that way.
Darling, if you want to live in estonia as full citizen, learn estonian. If you prefer english – move to UK and apply for naturalization there.
in the meanwhile, while there is panic in russian media…
well… ?
in the meanwhile:
russian media PWNT as usual
Tanya, but we are not screaming "Russians back to Russia" or something 🙂 I agree that such things are not an expression of patriotism. The point just is that the Russians living here should accept that they live in Estonia now. It's normal. Also in Russia the minorities must learn the local language, don't they?
On the other hand, the vandalism that happened in Tallinn was not an expression of Russian patriotism or grief either. I hope you agree with that. Most Russians in Tallinn didn't support this.
one more thing: TODAY THE MONUMENT WAS RESTORED. It is placed in a military cemetary not far from the bus station of Tallinn, just in the place where they had planned to take it.
that's an article from the main newspaper of Estonia, with pictures of the monument in its new location. In the moment the wall around it is temporarily missing, but it will be restored in the nearer future (it will be ready by June, then also the soldiers will be reburied). In May 8, when the victory of World War 2 will be celebrated in Europe, there will be an event at the statue to commemorate this, also Russian representatives are invited.
What is surprising there? No protestors, no cheering crowds… nobody seemed to be interested that the statue was NOT destroyed. In the cemetary there were mostly journalists. Anyway, the statue is back in a suitable location and everyone is welcome to come and visit it.
A video. Someone to claim it's not a more dignified location?
"Russia is a great big country, it has all. Estonia has nothing."
Move, then.
"As a matter of fact, I heard Estonia has a lack of police right now too. Maybe Russia can bring its troops for some help, eh ?"
During past 2 days, 1500 new assistant policement have been registered, and are in training.
If you refer to the "350 ethnic russian policemen have left estonian police" rumor, that's false. Police is police first, nationality doesn't enter the equation. Several of the policemen wounded in riots were of russian descent.
Dear Liisa,
I perfectly agree about all your comments. The only thing I am continuing asking myself is: Is there nothing else more important to think for a just newly elected prime minister and government than to move a statue ??? why few days after being elected to provoke such a mess ??? why just elected to be in the situation of almost breaking the diplomatic releations with Russia ??? well let me say that you had and have much better politicians than this ones. One of the duties of a prime minister is to keep its country in peace and well organized and be capable to evaluate all the possible consequences of an act before to do it (sometimes for the goodwill you have to find a compromise). This guy politically speaking is not capable AT ALL.
well, you see steve, very many estonians voted for ansip because HE promised to move the statue, by doing it, he also completed his promise.
This is not true. Most of the people voted him because his intention of not changing the actual fiscal system with 0% income tax (while Savisar wanted to introduce the payment of income tax as in the other European countries) and not because of a statue…I live in Estonia and I try to be in formed.
yes, because that was his other promise.
but you can't ignore the fact that he did say /before elections/ that they are going to move the statue, and if they hadn't done it, i think that the riots would've been even more catastrophic.
well,accually its a big problem for estonians.
like every time when i see that statue it reminds me how estonia was occupied and many was taken to siberia.
how would you like to live next to statue what tells abaut you loss?besides it isnt russia problem what we do on our own country,and russians,who live in estonia…nobody is holding on you.i'd say i wold be very happy when russians leave.
depends on these Russians. If the vandals leave, it will be only good, but most of the Russians here are moderate. In the vandalism participated only about 1% of the Russians of Tallinn, so it's wise not to generalise. In the other points I agree with you.
Making business with Estonia you support and finance Nazis.
You should understand, that making business with Estonia or buying anything produced in Estonia or visiting Estonia as a tourist, you actually support and finance a new generation of European Nazis. Please, spend a couple of minutes to read the letter to the end, because your voice of a free human is very important in preventing the revival of Fascism in the Europe.
Estonia, which has recently joined to EU and NATO, officially practices Apartheid policies and does its best to rehabilitate and legalize Fascism, for years. EU, US and other democracies preferred not to pay attention on that till now. However, it doesn't cancel the fact that Estonia carries out a policy of Ethnic Discrimination against ethnic Russians, who constitute a third part of its population. Most of these people were born in this country or live here for 30-40 years, but they were not even provided citizenship and are treated as second class people. Moreover, Estonia officially glorifies legionaries of Hitler's SS troops that exterminated Jews in Fascist death camps in Estonia during the Holocaust. Government sets up monuments to these Fascist butchers. They are allowed to march in the downtown of the capital, Tallinn. They are invited to official events; the Estonian President shakes their bloody hands, and calls them heroes of Estonia.
At the same time, Estonian government aggressively fights with any memories of millions of the Soviet soldiers, who paid with their lives to free Europe from the plague of the Fascism and to save dozens millions of Europeans of the death. And democratic countries – first of all EU and US, prefer to dissemble this again. But recently Estonian regime overstepped the limits, which makes it absolutely illegal from the point of view of common human values. On April 26, Estonian authorities have decided to finally erase the memory of the victory of Russian soldiers over the Hitler's Nazism by destroying the main World War II memorial to a Soviet warrior-rescuer, Bronze Soldier. For those Russians who live in Estonia, demolition of the memorial is not just a removal of some architectonic construction. This is the most painful insult of the memories of their fathers and grandfathers, who died in battle with the Fascism to bring freedom to the Europe.
Thousands of offended Estonian Russians came to a peaceful protest demonstration, demanding from Estonian officials to stop the vandalism. But instead dialogue Estonian authorities sent special police forces to suppress the protest. With no reason they started to fire in the protesters rubber bullets, water cannon and tear-gas, throw flash-bang grenades, and baton women and teenagers. During the massacre the first ethnic Russian was killed, dozens were injured and hundreds were arrested just because of their Russian ethnicity. Those arrested were thrown into in a harbor warehouse as they were livestock, and there they were beat by police within an inch of their life. Just think – in the heart of the Europe an Apartheid regime kills, injures and arrests hundreds people just because of their ethnicity! However, almost all of the European and American media keep hypocritical silence or even worse call this "pacifying gangs of drung vandals".
This is disgrace! This is shame not only on those European and US governments that support this Nazi state. This is shame on every European and American who keeps silence today. Keeps silence, because somewhere inside he or she is confident that rehabilitation of Fascism, and Apartheid crimes committed against those "dirty Russian" at the heart of the European Union, provide "useful lesson" to Russians and Russia. But maybe you think that this is not your business? Then let me remind you a famous phrase by German priest Martin Niemoller he said about Nazis in 1945: "First they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew…. Then they came for me and by that time there was no one left who can speak up for me". Today, new European Nazis came for the Russians, and the Europeans keep silence or, better to say, silently approve. Well, you can be sure – this is just the beginning, and some day yours home-grown Nazis, inspired by your silence of the crimes of the Estonian Fascism, will come for you. And there will be no one to speak up for you. Because Russians, once rescued the Europe from the Fascism, will never pay again with millions of their lives for those not speaking up today.
So what can you do? Not too much. But quite enough to stop Nazis. At least don't finance them. Don't buy anything produced from Estonia. Don't do any kind of business with Estonian companies and organizations. Don't invest in Estonian stocks. Don't fly to Estonia as a tourist. What else? Maybe, to ask your representative in the House of Representatives, why your government spends your taxes to support Estonian Nazis? Or to forward this letter to your local newspaper and ask them, why they never write about Apartheid in Estonia? Or to call to Estonian embassy in your country, and ask them what is that they think they are doing? Or at least forward this letter to a few friends and colleagues? Your voice CAN prevent revival of Nazism, if you want it
yeah, like anyone except some cafe intellectuals in eastern Soho is going to buy that. well not to mention the comfortly shaped russian public opinion. speaking of which, shouldn't it read in russian, it would surely attract more of a resonance?
excuse me, do YOU EVEN know what is going on or do did you just take it from somewhere in the web?
first of all, as said millions of times before, the can get a job, a right to vote – everything, once they have learned our language and apply for a citizenship.
by the way, those estonian soldiers who wanted to put up a monument for those who fought on german side during the ww2, well, it didn't succeed, the monument was takne down by force. so, there's is justice.
moreover, they were peaceful at first. but some years ago these meetings started to grow, and people strated to DRINK on those graves (which is not especially honouring), when they got drunk they called out slogans and stuff, heck, they even called out slogans when they were sober. they started to wave soviet flags and sing soviet songs, and threatened us that one day, soviet is going to be here! well, for all of those who are out of knowledge: waving a soviet flag (or a nazi one) is strictly forbidden and is considered as a breaking a law. so they were breaking laws. until last week, their protests were ok with us, but when they started to throw rocks at police and and get violent, the police had to so something. by the way, did you know that one female police officer is in hospidal because some russian people broke her legbones????? or how about that police officer who received a stone thrown at her face??? is that peaceful and right?
and don't tell me about that dmitri guy, he was killed by another rioter.
sorry hck, wrong click, that comment was meant for 'somone who can see'
quote: "Or to call to Estonian embassy in your country, and ask them what is that they think they are doing?"
Yes, that's the part that I agree with 😀 go to Estonian embassy (if you can stop the "Nashists" blocking it in Moscow) and ask what really happened in Tallinn. It will be educative for you 🙂
see the pictures?
i'd say that particular place is much better.
I have followed the change of opinions in this forum for a while now and not even once no russian has made any comments about the Khimki memorial. I talk about the same kind of war memorial, which was not re-located, but destroyeded in Russian city near Moscow to build a new supermarket. I would like to know is russian media reporting about that statue at all? I think not… Anyhow my point is that you should concentrate maybe on your OWN problems before starting judging on others!
well my dear, go to ask to Mr. Kasparov about democracy in your contry first.
You pitiful provokers!
It's probably already been said hundreds of times hereby but I really have no intention to read through these heaps of hate-comments. Those first photos must be one of the most despising examples of outright-lies I've seen! Nobody ever intended to demolish the momument in the first place and as a matter of fact, it's already been erected in its final resting place – a proper military graveyard.
The people rioting on the streets of Tallinn had NOTHING to do with ideological reasons whatsoever. The majority of them were people who have lived most of their lives in Estonia – and they were just out to vandalise, rampage and rob!
When the monument was finally removed during the early morning hours, no demonstrators were present anymore – they were busy pillaging alcohol shops and thieving jeans from the vandalised Hugo Boss store.
Don't get me wrong – I don't want to come off as a racist. I've had russian girlfriends, some of my dearest friends in Tallinn are native russians – NOT A SINGLE of them has any pity for those pillaging vandals.
And comparing to the behaviour of OMON and Russian police, the Estonian law authorities were as delicate as possible. I mean, they HAD TO BE – any excessive agressivity would've been overexaggerated by Russian media dozens of times. As is exactly the case right now – even if the policemen basically followed the guidebooks letter-by-letter.
here you go – the statue in a new place, on a proper graveyard.
The person who manipulated the original photo in the top of the page, making it look like the statues was destroyed, should be arrested and sentenced for causing ethnic hate.
..not to mention that the PhotoShop "skills" of this criminal manipulator are pitiful, to say the least.
I can't believe how immature Russia can be. How difficult is it to understand the point of view of Estonians? Stalin drove away the Germans. All right. But then he went on and occupied Estonia and because of that thousands and thousands of Estonians were killed. So the Bronze soldier is nothing more than a reminder of how Stalin occupied Estonia. It is very understandable why Estonians don't want it standing in the middle of their capital.
And it also should be mentioned that the people rioting around the city and stealing from Armani stores didn't care about the monument – hey! free stuff, right?
Estonians can see why the monument is important to Russians. Can't Russians at least try to see the point of view of Estonians?
Let the monument be in the cemetery – where it belongs.
And Toomas Hendrik Ilves is pure Estonian. His parents moved to Sweden during the Soviet occupation and he was born there. He grew up in the United States. I think he is doing just fine as a president. Besides, he can speak quite a few more languages than Putin.
Russia is at war with several countries. Estonian troops in Iraq are doing mainly peace-keeping. You do the math.
If Ansip hadn't sent his family abroad, I would consider him slightly insane. Do you know how many death-threats he's gotten in the last week? Any sane person would want to keep their family safe and Estonia isn't as safe at the moment as it could be. He is doing the right thing, protectinh his loved ones, you shouldn't blame him for that.
"Ilves, 52, was born in Stockholm to exiles from Soviet-dominated Estonia, which the Red Army had conquered in 1944 – 45. Like so many Baltic refugees, his parents later moved to the USA, and Ilves was educated at Columbia University, studying psychology."
and killing women and children in chechenya is another 'brave fight against fascism'?
p.s. don't forget to take your medicine
in Estonia there is a strong discussion about Iraq. Not everybody supports it.
Did I justify what Stalin did?
No I DON'T, it is horrible, so many innocent people were sent there and not only Estonians.
Joe, I am not putting words in your mouth, I didn't even mention you.
I am not blaming Ansip in anything, I just said that he doesn't care about Estonia, he is simply screwing up relations with Russia.
Estonia's problem is that it is always comparing itself with other countries – as you mentioned Finland before.
Sounds like you don't like living in Estonia ?
Ilves isn't even Estonian, that approves Estonian behaviour.
I don't see anything wrong in saying Hitler was a fascist, do you ?
Ilves is a foreign Estonian, his parents were refugees. There are Estonian communities from the time of WW2 in Sweden, USA, Canada, Australia…
I don't think it's a problem to compare Estonia to other countries. As for Finland, it's true. Before the WW2 Estonia was economically more developed than Finland, but because of the USSR Estonia's development stopped for a long time and the difference between Estonia and Finland nowadays proves it.
As for the word "fascist", it comes from the Italian word "fascio" (it means the struggle) and it was first used by Mussolini in Italy. In Germany there were the Nazis. Actually I don't know more historical details about the difference of these words. As probably most of us don't and "fascist" seems to be also a general name for that ideology, I don't mind if you call Hitler a fascist. They were all on one side and they committed crimes agaist humanity. There is no question that they had to be stopped.
Anyway, I don't like that Russia uses the word "fascist" widely against its opponents, for exemple the Baltic states (but not only). It's not meant personally for you, Tanya, but there are enough of commentators here and also among the Russian officials who just repeat one and the same word (fascism), one and the same connection between that word and Estonia over and over again without thinking what this word is actually about. It's just a magic word: if you say that a country has a fascist regime, if you repeat it over and over again, then people start to associate these countries with something negative, some even start to hate it just because it associates with a word they hate. The fact that the connection is actually false doesn't matter then any more, people are used to associate us with that word and that's what motivates them. Words can be powerful weapons.
So, I'm sure that the word "fascist" should remain only for the evil ideology of Germany and Italy during WW2. Let's hope it will disappear into history, it should certainly not become a common insult or a propagandistic weapon.
please try to be a bit more polite, "je". I'm an Estonian and it seems to me that among the Russians in this forum, Tanya is one of the most polite and reasonable ones.
Anyway, there are a few things that I wouldn't agree with. First, the Soviet Union was guilty in WW2, as well as Germany. Before the war started, Molotov and Ribbentrop (the Soviet and German foreign ministers) signed a pact in Moscow, they decided to be allies if one of the countries were attacked. So, in the beginning of the war they were allies, some Russians were trained in Germany etc. Also in this blog here there have been pictures of Soviet and Nazi friends before the war.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact also had a secret protocol, at the end of 1980s also Russia admitted that it existed. There Russia and Germany agreed in "influence areas" in Eastern Europe, they basically divided Europe between two empires. The Baltic states and also Finland for exemple remained in the Russian zone, so basically Russia agreed to Germany already before the war that it would invade some Eastern European countries.
I know that the Soviet Union fighted the Nazis and it was hard, but successful. I know it and there's no question that the fall of the Nazi regime was a victory for the whole world. Anyway, although the Nazis were defeated, it's not quite a liberation for the Baltic states in one simple reason – after that there came no liberty. There came another dictatorship. As for liberation, the USA liberated France, for exemple – there was the independent Republic of France before the war, it was occupied by the Nazis, but the Americans liberated it (of course with a big help from the French resistance, but in fact they wouldn't have succeeded without Americans). They drove out the Nazis and gave the power back to the French, the independent Republic of France was restored. As for the Baltic states, they were first occupied by the Soviet army, then a year later by the Nazi one and a few years later by the Soviet one again. The independent Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were NOT restored. That's the difference between liberation and another invasion.
Anyway, most Estonians don't think that Russians should be driven out from here. There are some extremists, but there are some on the Russian side as well. Let's just not listen to them, only then we can have an argumented discussion 🙂
Stalin committed big crimes against all nations he ruled or invaded. Estonians lost a bigger part of their population during WW2 than Jews. It is over now, Russia should not make heroes of the criminals of that time. Ordinary soldiers were not criminals, but the Soviet regime was. As for the monument… in the cemetary it's a monument for the fallen soldiers. In the city center, with its Soviet symbols, it was also a monument of power and that was the problem. The monument to the fallen soldiers is restored in the cemetary now.
Let's all calm down. The war ended long ago and history shouldn't be made a weapon of politicians.
this site provides you false imformation… the picture is made to look like that with photoshop. The statue is not demolished, it was just taken to a cemetary where it belongs, also the remains of the deceased are taken to the semetary. before the bodys were under the pavement in busstop and people were literally walking on them. The statue hasnt been damaged and is reopened in a cemetary. Russians are only trying to give Estonia a bad name, the riots were provoked by russia and because of safety measures the statue was taken away to semetary earlyer than planned so next day russians were angry, because it was supposed to be taken away not before 9th may. But it was taken away earlyer because of the riots. The person who died in riots was killed by another rioter not police. Ive heard they were fighting over who gets to steel a hugo boss shirt so 1 stabbed the other.
Estonia is for Estonians. Nobody from other states or nationalities can tell Estonians what they can or cannot do in their country. Our so called liberators forgot to go back home after liberating Estonia. Russian red army came to Tallinn when it was already free. Russians tore off Estonian national flag…
Actually i would also like to mention that before gemrans started with theyr barbarossa plan they were actually allied with russia in deviding europe. Any1 heard of the Molotov-Ribbendrop pact? Russia would get baltic states etc and they would devide poland into 2. Only later germany wanted to also conquer russia too and thats when the russians had to fight against germany. They were just protecting theyr asses. Russia did not liberate us, it occupied us.
Independent country in the EU, hmmmmm…. interestiing.
And of cource Estonia doesn't bow down to America, right?
by the way, OMON reads HOMO in cyrillic backwards
I'm not egotistic, but i'm also not blind.
If you would open your eyes you will see the world is mainly in two camps. And it's not Russia vs Estonia. Either your with the West, or not. Russia is the only country that cares about worthless Estonia, so show some respect. As history shows, your country is weak, and you'll have no choice but to give up.
A letter from mother of the "enemy of nation"
My son Mark Siryk has been arrested. The day whaen it happened he was walking to school,
he was detained, handcuffed and driwen away. He was not on the square when there were disturbances.
He is just a boy that didn't want the Bronze Soldier to be taken away. He did not summon anybody
to violence and massacres, he believed in justice, believed in EU and democratical Estonia.
In one day they made him almost the enemy of nation. They made a search in our house, confiscated all the
notebooks, computer, bank cards without explaining the reason. First they told me that he was detained
for 48 hours, but later they let know that the arrest will last half of year.
All this in the year when Mark finishes the school! Why? No one can explain why is the arrest,
handcuffs and half of year in prison. These arrangement could be applicable to a very dangerous crimer,
but not to a boy who wanted to organize picket at the monument.
I don't know what can be done with him there by the people who had a lump in childrens' throat at
daylight, beaten people that were down or sitting with batons and feet. I believe that in the conditions
of the prison it is possible to beat out any statements and find an evidence of Moscow's hands or anything else.
What will my son be thinking about Estonia? And what will think tens, hundreds of boys and girls in this
country, that were grabbed at day, pulled out from the crowd and whose faces were pressed to tha asfalt by feet?
And what I, the mother of the boy, will think? But unlike with him, I understand very good that someone needs
a sensation about an unveil of a conspiracy, in order to find an excuse of what had happened on the streets of
Tallinn. And now it is very convenient for them to lay the blame on children.
My son is in the disaster, we were placed on the edge of a material catastrophe. We will have judgements and
advocates ahead. Mark must be free again. And I hope that honest-minded people will help and support us because
we are not able to survive this nightmare alone.
Our e-mail is [email protected]; tel +372 564 77727 .
Irina Siryk
Just a few examples of anti-Semitism in Estonia:
In February 2005 the Ministry of Defense distributed a movie to Estonian schools, which praised Estonian volunteers to the SS during World War II and claimed that the Nazi occupation saved Estonia from the Soviets. No mention was made of the SS murder of Jews or of the transportation of thousands of Jews to camps in Estonia.
On 9 February 2005 the newspaper Kesknadal of the mainstream Centrist Party, a member of the government coalition, published an article by former Nazi legionnaire, I. Saar entitled, "History Cannot Be Sold at Auction," criticizing the Estonian government's decision from September 2004 to dismantle a memorial in the city of Lihula honoring Estonian SS soldiers.
On 16 July 2005 about 1,500 former Estonian SS collaborators held a rally in Tartu, attended by Rein Lang, minister of justice (Reform Party).
In mid-August a group of Holocaust researchers from Germany visiting Estonia discovered that the memorial to Holocaust victims in Klooga had been desecrated. The memorial marks the place where 2,000 Jews were shot to death and burnt on 19 September 1944. A local Jew told the visitors that the desecration had occurred in summer 2004 but the perpetrators had not been caught and the memorial was never repaired.
In early August the trial of Olev Khannula for incitement of hatred began in the city of Tallinn. In 2003 he wrote "Jews to the oven" on the Internet forum of the Delfi news site. The prosecutor said that the trial would serve as a precedent, establishing a clear line between freedom of speech and incitement of ethnic hatred…….
Shall I go on?
Intresting. The anti spam words are like: russia and soviet :)))
Interesting, anti spam words are: russia, soviet… 🙂 Next is Stalin? Glory?
If you don't like the way we do, get the hell out of Estonia and go back to your pathetic russia.
As sad as it might be, the link below shows in what horrible proportions Nazism is becoming more popular in Estonia. And the saddest thing is, that this is all happening under the nose of European community.
Estonia did not demolish the Bronze Soldier. It was moved to a graveyard outside of Tallinn: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8a/Bronze_Soldier,_27_May_2007,_portrait.jpg/450px-Bronze_Soldier,_27_May_2007,_portrait.jpg
The Person who was killed during the riots died because of deep cuts from a knife. The police might have used tear gas and bats, but they didn't have knives.
I am jewish, I have lived in Estonia, and I belong to a socialist political party. I know that Estonians hate Nazis just as they hate Sowjets.
Please don't twist the truth.
You are about as Jewish as A. Hitler. Do you really think anyone is going to belive your nazi propoganda?
A good russian is a dead russian. Easy as pie. Drop dead, fred.
Do you really think you are helping the situation?
Let me just tell you, that what you are doing, is helping people see what effect nationalist propaganda has on the people of Estonia.
Wow, that was long.
May I just say, that when reading, or at least trying to read, all of the comments posted under this entry, I have noticed that many russians are frustrated by the way their ethnic counterarts are treated in Estonia and other Baltic countries.
As a person who has visited Estonia on a more then one occasion, I must admit that I do share their concerns. Nationalism plays a great part in Estonian society. It is not only condoned but is generally encouraged and in effect is practised by the State and the Media.
As a result of this nationalism, a certain social environment has developed where ethnic Russian are perceived as something impure, dirty and not to be trusted ever again. This environment is without a doubt encouraged by the media. Thus, as a resut, russian ethnic minorities are discriminated against and are generally treated as second calls citizens. I shalln't provide yet more evidence of this discrimination because they have all been covered in this post quite thoroughly. But I do want to provide a more or less objective overview concerning the mistreatment of ethnic minorities, and a few other things, in the Baltic countires.
To conclude, I really hope that russians and etonians can put their difference aside, forget the past, and live for the future as one.
Good Luck.
It hasn't been demolished, it has been moved to a cemetery. Please do not post misleading information.
– One who is not from these parts
Who writes these articles here?
The statue was displaced to another location, into a peace memorial amongst other war graves. Not demolished!
Secondly, it was not because of what you claimed estonians fighting with germans against soviets. The statue was just a place for drunkards to gather and city found it not suitable to stand in the middle of the town so it moved it to more peaceful place.
The soviets raging then were just vandalizing the city where they also live. Only fatality was one russian boy who got stabbed by another russian, which happens all the time. Basically they just used the chance to go with the flow and rob all the shops they can.
About estonians fighting with germans against soviets. Well, to calm you down, we had to fight, some estonians fought with soviets against germans, but that doesn't make them communists or nazis. We had to fight, we fought for ourselves but we were forced to join with someone.
this is against law.
dont worry. there a lot of Estonian-related objects in Russia and overseas.
if you see something like – crush them !!
stonians f u c k russians up in the a s s in estonia
russians are slaves here – untermenchen, they do dirty work
estonians have better salaries and life – f u c k you russian animals!
respect to ESTONIA!
will somebody please think of all the people the soviets raped and killed. plus destroying our independence. only fascism I see around here is emanating from Russia today. nazis? commies? pot? kettle? difference? not much.
and to make it clear, the statue was moved from a trolley stop to a military cemetery. omg it still exists!
and will other estonians commenting here stop with the hate please, some russians in here are humans too. Balta, Iljušenko, Glebova, and many more Im sure of it, will surely in future bring medals and glory to our country. :))))
lol. i have to admit that this is actually pretty funny photoshopped version of the demolished bronze soldier. i've seen few before but that one has some sense of humor (leaving the boots).
The picture which depicts the wall with removed statue is photoshopped.
The bronze soldier was never cut, it was carefully dismantled and put up in a graveyard. All that was done during a night with tents covering everything. So the picture that is trying to show that the monument was actually demolished is obviously fake.
Why all these Lies? Bronze Soldier vas only removed to very beautiful place.And in full piece.Here are Phtographs photoshopped.
Lies can´t help you!.All teh World have seen Videos and truly material.Sorry my bad english!
Even shadows are fake.Very-very bad photoshopping.With another photoprograms can see all mistakes.
How many Estonian Freedom-statues have Russians destroyed?
1000,10000 or even 100 000?
For those Russian speaking folks here:
Фашизм. Прославление нацизма в Латвии.
Как клепают наглую пропаганду!?
Показано на примерах: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_3Vn7sI8dQ
ТВ канал «Звезда» в своем видеосюжете от 08.02.2009 «Уроки истории по-латышски. Поиски фашистов», мусолящем излюбленную тему российского агитпропа про якобы «прославление нацизма» в Латвии, пичкает зрителей искаженной информацией, фальсификациями и просто чистой воды вымыслом. Верхом абсолютного пренебрежения истиной и безграничного цинизма является демонстрация жертв советского НКВД 1940-1941 гг. под видом жертв нацистов.
That explains all.
"Tens were wounded, one later died in the hospital"
Oh, yes. Because one of his friends or rival marauders stabbed him when he was robbing liquor shop.
Ha! :)) Heil to the hero of Glorious Russian Liberation From Estonian Fascist Oppression! Ha ha !!!
These two feet are photoshopped. The Bronze Soldier was removed fully with the wall and they did it in a tent and they moved it out of downtown but you can still visit it. BTW riots were before moving the Soldier…
"BTW, have a look at the French press comments for your government."
Have a look at the French press comments about YOUR government too.
Just an idea to fellow Baltic folks and other democratic minded people:
Please take it as a natural thing that we are called Nazis and Fascists and we are accused of any appalling thing imaginable.
This is nothing new. It has been standard Soviet propaganda method for many decades.
Look into the old Soviet humor magazines. At one time or another you will see nearly any of the Western nations portrayed as Nazis, with swastikas and all.
It is nothing new and shall not be taken a the face value.
Do not take it close to heart. Though I understand that it may be hard, because we are not used to this kind of smear campaign directed at ourselves, for a simple reason that when it was in wide use last time, we were on the "right" side of the Iron Curtain.
Now our position has changed and we are at the receiving end of this Cold War propaganda. Get used to it. No reason to expect that it will cease any time soon.
Though that does not mean that we shall not fight it with the true information. We should. And should do it more than we are doing now. But do not overreact, or you risk damaging your health.
Lol the whole picture slide and information there is heavily disfigured . First this statue was near some bus station in the middle of the city of Tallinn so as for the most of the Estonians it is symbol of the occupation(yeah read the history)it was decided to move it to Cemetary where should be it rightful place in the first place. There has been removed several soviet statues from Hungary and other Baltic States and seems no one cared there … .
Anyways the statue was dismounted properly. If you check the 3rd picture you can see that it has been photoshopped, but even some kindergarten children could do it better …
As much I know no teargas was used so this part is false as well.
The reason why people started rioting was pretty simple. Some henchman from Moscow were sent to Estonia who were agitating people to riot and plunder. The one poor guy died because of plundering some bar . Who stabbed him hasn't been found out, but during riots anything can happen. It would be better to search some youtube video from both sides. Then you would understand what exactly happened.
Anyways below is link where is picture where the same statue is located in Soldier Cemetary. So you can believe or think what you want from email but the statue is there so no need to write and put up such garbage as it is here …..
Very well done HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
We fought in nazi army, I agree. But we had to make a choice between two bads (CCCP or nazi Germany), it went that way that we chose nazis. It was simply the best of two bads in our opinion back then.
In fact, Estonians hated Hitler so much that when new recruits had to say the oath to the nazis "Heil Hitler!", some of them said "Ei ütle!"("I don't say!").
Estonians did not participate in helping for concentration camps. Estonians fought in Waffen-SS. SS and Waffen-SS are very different things. If SS was specialised for killing civilians systematically (similar to CCCP's NKVD/KGB), then Waffen-SS was ordinary army, what took part in the battles.
What I wish to say, Estonia wanted to remain neutral but still two empires crushed us.
AND – to Russians WW2 means great victory, where the evil force (Germany) was defeated. BUT to Estonians WW2 means extremely desperate time, where we almost were finally doomed (population of Estonians is only about 1 million!). So the bronze soldier reminds Russians the great effort of their Red Army liberation (wiped away nazis). But Estonians saw tears, blood and depression when they looked at the statue.
Relations between Estonians and Russians have always been tense and complicated. We must try to understand each others wiewpoints.
u know the statue was not destroyed,it was removed from downtown to the army cemetary.. please check your sources.
Look at the pictures if you dont believe
"And Russian bloggers now compare this act of demolition with another act in 2001 committed by Taliban in Afghanistan when they destroyed the tallest Buddha statue just because Islam bans human statues from using. Who knows who is right.."
Acctually, this statue wasn't demolished like Buddha. Bronze soldier just was moved to other place (to the cemetery of Soviet solders).
It was moved, because this solder before moving to other place, was standing allmost in the center of the Estonian capital Talin.
Everybody knows, that Soviets occupied three Baltic countries after II World War.
So, you can understand how it feels to see everyday a statue of red ocupants. Thats, why he was moved to other place and respectfully rebultied in the cemetery of Soviet solders).
And those people, what you see in photos, are just stupied russian hooligans, who don't respect estonians, live in Estonia, and even don't try to learn estonian language. That's why the real estonina won't answer for you, if you ask him something in russian
Also the location across the street from what in Soviet times used to be KGB's Tallinn HQ may have contributed to decision to relocate the monument, I have heard that even today many elderly estonians avoid the area around that place (the KGB's Tallinn HQ)
As I know, snails are very peaceful:-)I want to see the day you kill russians….with your reaction and fish brain:-)
lol whining soviets are so fun 😀
Thanks for the info, just wanted to comment to say that the theme of your site is really cool. I'm guessing you are using WordPress… is this one of the free themes?
Estonia is not part of the "West". And if you think they are, you should take a few classes
I just want to say:
I am English and have lived in Estonia for an exstensive amount of time. The Estonian people are peaceful, friendly and incredibly liberal. The younger generations are some of the most liberal and forward thinking people in Europe- even after all the struggles they have encountered. When they were under Russian occupation they had no freedom, they were constantly under threat of being killed or shipped to Siberia, and the way the got their freedom restored was not through violence but through demonstrations and SINGING. Literally singing. They are very brave and respectable people, all of you who keep insulting them for no reason, please learn your facts before being so ridiculous.
Thank you.
3rd and last picture are very badly photoshoped.
To all the Russians here. Look, Russia *invaded* Estonia. After the "liberation," my grandfather was shipped to Siberia and my uncle was "drafted" at gunpoint with the help of some attack dogs at 4 am one morning whereupon he was shipped to the front and killed.
Every Estonian family has stories like this. Do you expect us to like you? Or be truthful to you? Or trust you? Ever?
Choosing between Hitler and Stalin was not much of a choice. One Jew-hating insane dictator looked pretty much like another. You might as well have flipped a coin.
So no, Russian monuments and culture and people are never going to win any popularity contests in Estonia. At least the Germans don't expect gratitude in return for invasion or mass murder.
FYI, I don't live in Estonia. I live in the USA. My mother was from Estonia. I am subject to no Estonian "propaganda."
Second picture is a FAKE – please take a look of the enlarged outtake from the center: http://www.upload.ee/image/1780945/FAKE.jpg
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