Ask HN: How is your standing desk working for you? - <AUTHOR> Bodywise I love it, my back pain is much less and I alternate between sitting and standing in 1h intervals.
My problem is that I find it much harder to concentrate while I am standing and I am writing much more code while sitting.
Curious about other opinions? <comment><USER4> A couple years ago my co-worker and I each built the $22 IKEA standing desk from iamnotaprogrammer.com[1]. We also each got a nice standing mat and stool (about $100 each), and I got a monitor mount (about $50).

It's been excellent. I'd say I spend about half my time standing and half sitting on the stool. For me, rather than losing focus when I'm standing, sometimes I'll just pace around my office a bit, which I've found helps me think a lot, and obviously helps keep the blood flowing and the muscles loose.

[1] [http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dolla...](http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dollars.html)

<comment><USER5> Many folks mention standing on a mat. Anybody care to give specific advice on what to buy (brand, material, thickness, link, whatever)?

<comment><USER6> At work I've used an Imprint CumulusPRO mat and it was very comfortable and took a lot of abuse like using my chair on top of it half the time.

<comment><USER7> i would definitely recommend an anti-fatigue mat if you're using a standing desk. our mats are sold at $39 to compliment our SmartDesk.

[https://www.autonomous.ai/anti-fatigue-mat-standing-desk- acc...](https://www.autonomous.ai/anti-fatigue-mat-standing-desk-accessories)

<comment><USER8> Your site doesn't display on iPhone, most probably you have an overlay darker gray pop-up that blocks from viewing anything on the site. I can see just the outline of something in background

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Standing hurts my feet within 10-20 minutes, but I found a treadmill/walking desk to be something I could do all day long. It helped a lot with back pain, and as a side-effect it cured post-lunch sleepiness.

Coding while walking was never a concentration problem for me, so I can only offer that as an anecdotal data point. It might be me, but maybe walking rather than standing makes it easier to concentrate?

There were plenty of downsides that make using the walking desk hard for me. I was working in games, and testing a 3d game while walking was often disorienting and would cause me to trip on myself or walk off the treadmill. Frequent visits and phone calls from other employees were more difficult to deal with than coding while walking. And a treadmill desk is bulky and noisy and hard to move around. I got the smallest setup I could find, and it still used up a lot more space than I expected.

<comment><USER10> Do you have collapsed arches, and if you do have you looked into rebuilding them? Assuming you look into it i know Kelly Starrett has discussed it so he probably has good resources (e.g. in Ready to Run, no running required) and there are likely other good sources as well.

My feet have "much" more of an arch in my feet than two years ago and the difference is noticeable.

<comment><USER9> Not that I know of, but I can't say I've ever had my arches evaluated. Maybe it's time! I do hike & run a lot and don't have any issues there. I used running shoes with good insoles & arch support when using the standing desk & treadmill desk. Would there be other symptoms that indicate collapsed arches?

<comment><USER10> You'd have to do some research (and maybe involve a doctor). If you do have collapsed arches, or just really weak arches, your reasons are likely different than other peoples reasons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I tried to use a standing desk while coding, but I also had a hard time concentrating, so I stopped. However, according to Dr. Joan Vernikos [1] (former Director of Life Sciences at NASA, and author of Sitting Kills, Moving Heals [2]), neither sitting or standing for extended periods is healthy. It's all about movement and gravity. For a detailed explanation of why this is, and the research that backs it up, check out this interview between her and Dr. Mercola [3], it's really interesting. They talk specifically about standing desks at this time marker [4].

[1] [http://www.joanvernikos.com/pages/about-dr- joan.php](http://www.joanvernikos.com/pages/about-dr-joan.php)

[2] [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MU12HU8/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MU12HU8/)

[3] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDhXJGZJJd4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDhXJGZJJd4)

[4] [https://youtu.be/KDhXJGZJJd4?t=1881](https://youtu.be/KDhXJGZJJd4?t=1881)

</comment><comment><USER12> I have an automated sit-stand desk, and I really appreciate having it. I don't necessarily switch to standing every day, but I do at least 75% of the time. When I do, it's for one to two hours at a time.

I'm kind of the opposite to you, where, when I realize I'm losing focus, I'll switch to standing and try to squeeze out a little more focus before relenting and taking a break. Sometimes that will get me right back into the groove and next thing I know it, I've been coding for another two hours.

That's not to say I don't take breaks throughout the day, but focus can be a bit tougher to maintain on some days. Switching my desk definitely helps.

I've been meaning to try the treadmill hack[1] to get a slow treadmill under my desk. Unfortunately, at 6'6" (2m), I'm not sure this desk (or any automated standing desk) is tall enough for me to get a treadmill underneath and still have my desk at a comfortable height.

1: [http://www.treadmilldeskdiary.com/setting-up-my- confidence-p...](http://www.treadmilldeskdiary.com/setting-up-my-confidence- power-plus-treadmill-for-a-desk/)

</comment><comment><USER13> > Curious about other opinions?

I don't think sit-stand desk is such a good idea. Sitting and standing for long periods of time is not good for your health.

Here is the way I work, it's like a game...

\+ Work in 30 minutes intervals where you only sit.

\+ Have a timer (e.g. Google Calendar) that let's you know your time is up.

\+ To get another 30 minutes of work, you have to workout for 2-3 minutes.

\+ Have a set of 10-15 pounds dumbbells next to your desk and just workout for 3 minutes. My favorite workout is "goblet squat". You can learn the proper forms from YouTube.

Benefits:

\+ You have more focus!

\+ You won't waste time solving problems that does not matter because you have worked hard for that 30 minutes ;)

\+ You'll become stronger! Your body starts to make muscles.

\+ You will never get tired from sitting!

\+ You'll be ... OPS... my time is up I have to workout...

<comment><USER14> "I don't think sit-stand desk is such a good idea. Sitting and standing for long periods of time is not good for your health."

I have had a standing desk for about seven years. For what it's worth, I only work at a desk about 10-15 hours per week.

I have found that I feel best when cycling between standing, sitting and lying down. In fact, there are certain kinds of work that I find myself completing more efficiently and enjoyably in different physical configurations. I like to stand at my desk for phone calls and support interactions but I like to lie down on my couch for research/reading.

I have indeed found that standing for 4-6 hours doesn't feel all that great, but in different ways that sitting for 4-6 hours doesn't feel great. So I have a standing desk, a chair, and a couch and cycle between them depending on what kind of work I am doing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've been using a standing desk in various forms[1] since 2009. I've also been using dual vertically stacked monitors for a long time and love it when using a standing desk. I wrote my thoughts about how to be successful 4 years ago[2] which break down to.

1\. Get a padded mat or soft shoe inserts 2\. Don't force yourself to stand 100% of the time 3\. Always start your day standing

I also wrote about how to modify your existing desk[3] or build/buy[4] a standing desk. I haven't taken pictures of my standing desks since ~2014 but my setup hasn't changed much.

[1] [https://goo.gl/photos/cUuQvoguMoz7Czj7A](https://goo.gl/photos/cUuQvoguMoz7Czj7A)

[2] [https://medium.com/@rothgar/how-to-be-successful-with-a- stan...](https://medium.com/@rothgar/how-to-be-successful-with-a-standing- desk-69f82c649184)

[3] [https://www.howtogeek.com/99961/how-to-modify-your- existing-...](https://www.howtogeek.com/99961/how-to-modify-your-existing- desk-to-make-it-a-standing-desk/)

[4] [https://www.howtogeek.com/100748/15-ideas-to-buy-or-build- yo...](https://www.howtogeek.com/100748/15-ideas-to-buy-or-build-your-perfect- standing-desk/)

</comment><comment><USER16> I am getting a little lazy and am starting to sit down more again. Standing the whole day is also pretty hard on my knees. But it's nice to be able to mix it up.

In general I am getting more and more envious of people who have a job that allows them to move around a lot. Being in one place the whole day just plain sucks, be it sitting or standing.

<comment><USER17> the answer for me is to recline when working... and put that energy into a proper workout, which also means you can workout in a way that doesn't impact your knees.

<comment><USER16> To me it's about changing position. Sitting, standing, treadmill, reclining or whatever. It's all causing problems if you do any of these for 8 hours straight.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I purchased a standing desk about a year ago. I've found that I use it a lot less than I thought I would. On average, I spend about 1 hour a day standing. Why?

\- I find it difficult to stand for long periods of time, much more difficult than walking or running for the same duration of time. I tend to get tired of standing after about 40 minutes, and just want to sit down. I can run for hours.

\- I find it more difficult to concentrate. If I need to really think about a hard implementation, or a tricky design solution, I find my desire to sit down is very strong.

Negatives aside, I actually wish I used it more.

As I've gotten older, I've noticed lower back pain at night when sleeping. Researching the problem, it appears the culprit is tight hamstrings. Sitting for prolonged period can cause tight hamstrings, leading to lower back pain. In the past couple of weeks, I've been stretching and rolling my hamstrings, and trying to stand more. The results have been very promising: The more I stretch, and the more I stand, the less pain I have at night.

I just wish I could stand for longer periods. There's something about it that my body doesn't like, it's just draining.

<comment><USER19> Not just you. A few years back, I served as a docent for a week-long introductory course in bioinformatics tooling - almost all of which time I spent standing, and very little of it moving around. It was exhausting, and it _hurt_. I can do ten miles on foot in a day, up and down hills, through streams, and generally all over creation - and even so feel better the next morning than if I spent the same time standing still.

<comment><USER20> Your posture might be the problem.

<comment><USER19> It would be super helpful to know more about how to identify and fix such problems! You seem knowledgeable on the subject. Perhaps you will share.

<comment><USER20> > You seem knowledgeable on the subject.

Not really, but the problem you describe is usually a sign of problems with posture.

An orthopaedic will be able to identify any posture issues easily.

We deal with posture when the problem is substantial/visible, but most people have subtle orthopaedic issues which can be the root cause of other, bigger problems and don't know about it until it's too late.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Can't beat this drum enough. Consider using a treadmill desk. Alternate between sitting and walking. Moving is better than standing still.

See my setup. [https://www.dropbox.com/s/089qqvaa7j5ob77/office_setup.jpg](https://www.dropbox.com/s/089qqvaa7j5ob77/office_setup.jpg)

I've lost a lot of weight with this setup. Still have a long way to go.

I've found the key to concentration is walking slow. It has a max speed of 4MPH (which is way too fast). I walk at a pace of 1.2 - 1.4 mph. I walk in segments of 25 minutes. Break for 5. Longer breaks every 4 cycles. (Pomodoro Technique)

I look at this as in investment in my health. It's paid off already, in big ways.

<comment><USER22> Similar, but I went a bit overboard with my setup and created a sliding platform for my chair: [https://cl.ly/2e3q0B0f2O3o](https://cl.ly/2e3q0B0f2O3o)

<comment><USER23> This is amazing. Care to share more specifics? Eg. total cost, treadmill brand/model that allows for the platform, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I have tried standing desks, and found that standing for long periods is too distracting. I have to shift my weight often to remain comfortable, focus on not locking my knees, etc.

What _does_ work well for me is a treadmill desk. Once you get used to it (it took me a few days) you don't even notice that you're walking. I do find that I have to pause the treadmill to work on particularly difficult problems (I do both front-end and back-end on LAMP-oriented sites), but most of the time my brain can handle both.

edit to add: I work from home, which makes a big difference, I understand that a treadmill desk isn't viable for everyone.

</comment><comment><USER25> I'm a fan. I haven't noticed any major differences in capabilities when standing or sitting.

I have noticed that I switch between the two positions _really_ often. Having a fast lifting mechanism (mine uses springs/gas canisters with a hand brake) is essential, since it makes the transition fast enough to not interrupt any flow I have going.

My only real complaint is that when standing, any bump of the desktop is magnified through the monitor arms, making them jump around alot. Not a big deal, but when it happens it's annoying.

</comment><comment><USER26> I like to use my desk in a standing setting when in virtual meetings. Even if I'm not on camera, I feel more confident, assertive, etc. One of those posture -> psychology.

</comment><comment><USER27> I have a Steelcase Airtouch at home that I love, but honestly I don't stand that frequently. I find standing much better for collaboration (but I code alone at home). The Airtouch along with an adjustable monitor arm is a great combination. I end up wanting my screen slightly higher off the desk when I'm standing. One annoying thing for my setup and almost all desk setups that I see is vibrations translating to the monitor. I find a monitor that vibrates while I type very distracting. I use mechanical keyboards so that might accentuate the vibrations. I'm thinking of mounting my monitor on a separate stand like [http://www.tvstandsonly.com/P-24273/TV-Stands-for-Expos- with...](http://www.tvstandsonly.com/P-24273/TV-Stands-for-Expos-with-Heavy- Duty-Base) to completely isolate it from the typing surface

For cramping legs, I have an officemate who uses this: [https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-fidget- bar](https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-fidget-bar).

My final recommendation for office workers is to hit the gym with a qualified personal trainer who understands flexibility and range of motion. If you spend most of your day at a desk I will almost guarantee that you have [http://www.physio- pedia.com/Low_Back_Pain_Related_to_Hyperlo...](http://www.physio- pedia.com/Low_Back_Pain_Related_to_Hyperlordosis) caused by your quads spending most of the day contracted leading them to be tight. Working to extend your hip range of motion and core strength will pay dividends in everything you want to do.

</comment><comment><USER28> I've been standing for 5 years and love it - no back pains and feel much better physically and mentally at the end of a day compared to sitting.

The biggest issue for me is foot fatigue. I now use 2 anti-fatigue mats - <USER3> rubber lower mat (Genuine Joe Anti Fatigue Mat), and a foam upper (Imprint Cumulus9 Kitchen Mat Nantucket Series). Without these there is no way I could handle more than 6 hours. However, even with them, I still have sore feet after 10-12 hours (8 hours is ok). Another useful component of a standing desk is a foot stool to periodically shift weight around.

Desk Pics: [https://photos.app.goo.gl/rQBWwBQx97liILOn1](https://photos.app.goo.gl/rQBWwBQx97liILOn1) [https://photos.app.goo.gl/CVrK8p1ukau5kLiw2](https://photos.app.goo.gl/CVrK8p1ukau5kLiw2)

<comment><USER29> >> The biggest issue for me is foot fatigue. I now use 2 anti-fatigue mats - <USER3> rubber lower mat (Genuine Joe Anti Fatigue Mat), and a foam upper (Imprint Cumulus9 Kitchen Mat Nantucket Series).

You might want to try Crocs shoes. I found them to work very well for me, even without mats.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I keep mine in the sitting position 80% of the time, but as I've been getting more into fitness and trying to work on my posture I've been using it more.

I tend not to really get into a flow state while standing, but it's good for briefly knocking out tasks like email or minor changes.

</comment><comment><USER31> Standing desks work best when used with a treadmill specifically designed for and optimized for walking. Standing for long periods, especially on hard flat floors, will also cause problems (an anti-fatigue pad beneath your feet will help with that). Being able to stand and move with a steady slow pace imparts the greatest benefit and avoids the problems of standing. And even with a treadmill, there are tasks you'll do better sitting. Alternating sitting and standing, and often walking while standing, feels great. Our ancestors evolved to walk and run long distances with varied movements to gather food and hunt, not to stand in one place for hours looking straight ahead or straight down.

</comment><comment><USER32> I moved to a standing desk seven years ago and love it. Here are a few tips for the transition:

* Start slow. If possible, alternate standing and sitting on a comfortable interval while your legs and back get used to being engaged more.

* Bring your monitor(s) up to eye-level. If you are looking down at a laptop while standing, your neck and upper back will suffer. Search for laptop risers and get an external keyboard and mouse.

* Make a point to sit down for lunch. That short break makes a big difference in standing for the rest of the day.

* To change up my stance, I have a sturdy shelf built in to my desk that I can put a foot up on. Try a stepping stool if your desk doesn't have one.

* Get an anti-fatigue mat. It will save your feet and knees from unnecessary strain.

</comment><comment><USER33> I've had a GeekDesk for a long time now... [close to 10 years?].

I love it; and move sporadically between standing and sitting. Standing is better for conference calls.

Writing prose, emails, books, and blog posts are better done sitting down.

In terms of writing code, I could go either way.

Often switching between standing and sitting is a really good way to fix a problem I'm having focusing.

That said, I go through spurts where I stand a lot and spurts where I sit a lot; there is no real rhyme or reason, I'm not as religious about swapping every hour.

It surprising how natural it feels to stand and work at the desk, and once I get in a zone it doesn't matter if I'm down or up.

</comment><comment><USER34> I've been using a LifeSpan treadmill desk for the last 5 years. I probably walk 1500+ miles each year on the treadmill, usually 4-5 hours a day (weekdays only) @ 1.5-2MPH.

It's absolutely amazing, and it's so habitual now that I have a harder time concentrating when I'm not walking and typing (my legs get really restless).

A really nice side benefit is when I go running or hiking, even after a long spell of not running or hiking, I am far less sore doing it because of all the walking at work.

<comment><USER35> Any concern about needing knee/hip replacements at some point from all the extra walking? I've been thinking about a treadmill desk but worry about damaging my joints.

<comment><USER34> I'm 32 and have been a long distance runner most my life without ever having knee issues. I walk in my running shoes for stability and cushion, and since walking is a lot less impact than running, I'm not concerned about it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I already had a fairly active after work life that involved powerlifting and cycling. I have to admit most of the time I am sitting at work as I am normally hurting somewhere (the good kind of muscle ache). But at home I have a standing only desk and it's best use is allowing me to quickly move from being at the device or doing something else. I don't feel like I am settling in for a long stint, I can quickly pop on a video or write a message and move away.

</comment><comment><USER37> I got mine a couple of years back as I find that sitting down I hardly move, I just stare at the screen like a motionless zombie. Standing at a desk I pretty much dance about and find myself doing much more. My main issue was height/weight as I am 2metres tall and 110KG, I found most desks do not go high enough. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/catcameron/albums/721576482809...](https://www.flickr.com/photos/catcameron/albums/72157648280943703) The setup has slightly evolved since then and the cable management is much better. Anyway, a last year I finally became a father and in the past few months I have found that little arms are talented at pulling any cable in sight...being able to keep the desk up has 'baby-proofed' my working area. I think making sure you are not looking down when standing, even by a few degrees, is key to being comfortable, that and standing on something squishy like sneakers or a floor mat/carpet. At work I have one of these [https://varidesk.co.nz/](https://varidesk.co.nz/) it is surprisingly quick to use but I find myself sitting more at work.

</comment><comment><USER38> I've been using a standing desk for about 2 years, and I definitely focus better while sitting - sometimes I'll even grab a random table to really pound things out, because perching on a high chair isn't quite the same.

But I like standing for dealing with random little things (email and other reaction mode type stuff), and the standing desk also makes it a lot easier to show people things on your screen when they walk over.

</comment><comment><USER39> I built a standing desk[1] about 3 or 4 years ago that I used exclusively for most of that time.

For me the purpose was actually to relieve arm pain, because when you rest your arms against anything for extended periods of time, it aggravates the nerve and causes long-lasting pain from your fingers to your elbow and sometimes higher.

Overall I found it pretty helpful, not because I'm standing all the time, but because it encourages me to move around more (shift legs, walk away and come back, etc) which keeps me from being in a bad posture for too long at once.

The thing cost probably $250 to build out of parts from Menard's, using four 4x4s for the legs and a butcher block for the top, and some metal to keep them together. I'm not a handy guy so assembling it was too confusing and difficult and I almost swore I'd never build anything again in my life. But I'm glad I have this thing.

[1] standingdesk.image = [https://www.dropbox.com/s/7acc2jkc6zgrow7/standingdesk.jpeg?...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/7acc2jkc6zgrow7/standingdesk.jpeg?dl=0)

</comment><comment><USER7> i'm biased as we're one of the standing desk makers (Autonomous), but our 50+ people team and more than 50,000+ companies are actively using our own standing desks daily.

we're also developing new accessories around the desk, like the anti-fatigue mat, so that your sit/stand experience would be better throughout the day.

anti-fatigue mat [https://www.autonomous.ai/anti-fatigue-mat-standing-desk- acc...](https://www.autonomous.ai/anti-fatigue-mat-standing-desk-accessories)

our desk [https://www.autonomous.ai/smartdesk-sit-to-stand-height- adju...](https://www.autonomous.ai/smartdesk-sit-to-stand-height-adjustable- standing-desk)

we're also working on a software component that reminds you when to stand or sit to maximize your productivity. we'll release it in a couple of months, and hopefully, it will be helpful to you.

if anyone has any suggestion on how to make sit/stand experience great at work, would love to hear from you. my email is email@example.com.

</comment><comment><USER40> I've been using a standing desk at work for about a year and a half now. I stand all day, except for meetings and lunch. I'm definitely a fan; I just ordered a standing desk for home.

Regarding concentration, I'm reminded of an interesting article about concentration and standing desks: [https://qz.com/957311/why-cant-i-focus- using-a-standing-desk...](https://qz.com/957311/why-cant-i-focus-using-a- standing-desk/)

"When standing in an office—especially one where others are sitting—your range of vision is far wider; you can see a lot more faces from a higher vantage point than you do sitting down. The more people you can see both directly and peripherally, the more faces you are unconsciously trying to interpret. And the more you process this information, the more likely you are to take those emotions on yourself."

I've avoided this problem by facing a partition where I can't see anyone and wearing noise-canceling headphones.

<comment><USER18> If you don't mind me asking, how tall are you?

<comment><USER40> 6 feet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I have a standing only setup that is based off IKEA's hand cranked standing desk (I take advantage of the empty space below the desk for storage). I started with a makeshift platform on a table to make sure it was not a fad for me before getting my current setup. I found my posture improved while standing.

Having said that, I don't know if my health or anything like that improved significantly by standing.

I love working while standing, but...

I work mostly at home (and we don't wear shoes in the house). I have a standing pad, but my heels were bottoming out to the floor and eventually started experiencing heel pain. I started wearing padded slippers on top of the pad, but by that time it was a little too late. I developed plantar fasciitis in both feet. It was worse in my left foot than my right foot. My right foot has cleared up, and I'm working on stretching exercises to help clear up the left foot and have been making progress.

I am currently using a drafting stool until my left foot gets better. I really miss standing. In fact, I'm itching to get back to standing. I will be making a couple of major changes. I now wear Crocs while standing. I get that they're fugly, but they are in my experience, the most comfortably padded shoes for the price. I use the ones designed for people who work in restaurants, and they're great. I feel no pressure on my heels when using them. I also plan on alternating into sitting a little more often.

\-- Notes

If you're thinking of getting the IKEA hand cranked desk, be aware that the table top that comes with it is not solid. I originally wanted to cut a hole in it to permanently mount my dual monitor stand, but doing so would have compromised the structural integrity of the table top.

From what I gather, foot problems are common with people who move to a standing only setup, so take some actions to mitigate this if you can.

<comment><USER41> > If you're thinking of getting the IKEA hand cranked desk, be aware that the > table top that comes with it is not solid. I originally wanted to cut a hole > in it to permanently mount my dual monitor stand, but doing so would have > compromised the structural integrity of the table top.

For this exact reason, I made my own tabletop. I went to Home Depot, bought a big piece of hardboard (4ft x 8ft x 2in) and had them cut it to size. I bought a random orbital sander, a can of stain, and some spray-on top coat. I rounded the corners with the sander, wiped down the wood, stained it with 2 layers, and sprayed on 2 layers of top coat. Desk is waterproof, light, and much more sturdy than particle board. Total cost (not including time and labor): $85

<comment><USER29> With respect to particle board, even that is better than what came with my desk. The table top is actually a hollow frame with reinforcement here and there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> My old job, I was given a motorized desk. I never stood. Managed to gain a ton of weight and health problems. At the new job, didn't have the option for any form of standing desk at first. Then a couple of standing desks came in, but they were hand cranked. Made things harder to go up and down, but I took over one and got rid of the stool that came with it. I don't really notice a different in my work performance, nor do my managers, but I have noticed my posture is a bit better, along with he diet and exercise my doctor put me on, I feel better about things. MY only gripe was the first couple weeks of pure standing, my back KILLED while trying to get used to it. Now, my legs are tired when I get home and I don't move around much there. But I won't give it up for my regular work.

</comment><comment><USER43> After my doctor prescribed a sit/stand desk, my work provided me a Varidesk accessory. I sit for one hour and stand for one hour according, following doctor's orders.

My focus is about the same from what I can tell, and I actually prefer to stand.

While standing I shift my weight and move my legs which, according to my doctor, is the point of sit/stand desks. They promote/accommodate physical activivty while working at a desk.

That said, my focus while in the office is very low overall because I work in an open office. So, whether sitting or standing, I have to deal with visual distractions and filter conversations with headphones and generated noise.

So like the OP, my body and health benefit enormously from sit/stand and if my concentration suffers, it is not to such a degree that it is noticeable due to other environmental factors.

</comment><comment><USER44> I've been using a standing desk for about five years now. I generally use it for 8 hours per day. The only time I don't is when I'm doing a video conference and that's just because I don't have an external camera at the moment.

I will say that I preferred my treadmill desk. Standing can be a little tiring. I use a mat and good shoes, but I still feel it in my hips at the end of the day. (I'm about to turn 50).

With the treadmill desk, I could feel it in my calves and thighs, but it felt good and was much less tiring. The treadmill was just too heavy to move when we came to Texas, but I hope to have one again.

I never had any trouble concentrating on the treadmill. I do find myself sitting to think sometimes from the standing desk, but I think that is the soreness issue in another form.

</comment><comment><USER45> I've been working at a standing desk for a year now made of two study card board boxes. Looms ugly, but is at a very comfortable height, and so have declined offers to buy me a 'real' standing desk.

I usually alternate standing and sitting in 80+% standing / 20-% sitting split. I ront feel guilty when I go home and sit on the couch for a bit, my intestines and other organs feel much better now after standing as sitting prolonged hours seemed to squeeze them leading to discomfort. So overall I feel better. Much better.

Initializing a spout of heavy concentration can be difficult while standing up, but once I get going I lose myself in to it.

But I also recommend once every 30 minutes doing some frantic jumping or whatever to move you heart rate up for a minute or two. A timer is good for that.

<comment><USER46> Can you explain more around how you transition between sitting and standing with your setup? I'm imagining either a laptop or you collapse/expand the boxes?

<comment><USER45> I am lucky enough to have enough desk to have a spot for my laptop on the regular desk, which I then remote in to the server if I need to work.

What is interesting in my poor man setup is that my mouse is lower than my keyboard by maybe 25-30 cm, which I have found to be quite comfortable position.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I encourage everyone to buy a DeskCycle or equivalent with an ergonomic chair and appropriately positioned table. Once you get into the groove you should be able to average 10mph for approximately 4 hours. I feel healthier doing that than standing or sitting all day.

</comment><comment><USER48> I stand about 2 hours per day. At first an old knee injury bothered me, but that knee is better than it has ever been.

I wish I had room for a treadmill in my office, but I don't.

Topo standing mat was $50ish and worth every penny. I can stand for about 15 minutes without one and 2 hours with.

</comment><comment><USER49> I have been using one for about a year and a half. I don't use it as much as I should but once or twice a week it helps me get through the mid afternoon lull. I find that if I am loosing focus that standing for 20 minutes gets me back on track.

</comment><comment><USER50> I tried one for a couple days but couldn't do it.

My honest suggestion for back pain is a better chair with stronger lumbar support. Also check your posture. The combination honestly changed my life. You would be shocked how much of a difference it can make.

</comment><comment><USER51> In general, I'm a big fan. I probably go back and forth between sitting and standing every three hours or so.

I don't think I have worse concentration while standing _unless_ I've been standing for awhile and my feet are staring to hurt, which makes me a bit more restless. Another thing I've noticed is that people seem to find me more approachable when I'm standing. They seem to strike up conversations more often, whereas when I'm sitting I must look like I'm working hard and shouldn't be bothered.

Overall, I'm very happy to have one and would recommend a standing desk to anyone, provided they have the option to sit as they please.

</comment><comment><USER52> At my office, I used a fixed-height standing desk without the bar-stool height chairs that are commonly seen paired with fixed standing desks. In other words, I am standing for the full work day. Meanwhile, my desk at home is a traditional sitting-height fixture. So I do a fair amount of sitting in the evenings as well.

For what it's worth, I don't perceive any difference in my ability to concentrate or be effective while standing, with some caveats:

* With the unfortunate advent of glossy-screened displays, there can be additional glare at a standing height. You may want to evaluate whether your concentration problem is related to the amount of glare or outright reflections of nearby activity you are perceiving on your display. For me, it was important to get semi-matte displays (truly matte is ever harder to find these days) and orient the displays to minimize glare. Side rant: hardware manufacturers, please make matte displays mainstream again.

* My desk was quickly hand-built out of plywood and is non-adjustable. It was intended to be experimental but I've used it for about two years now. My intent is to replace it with a hardwood fixture soon. If you aren't interested in splurging for an adjustable desk, don't make a stupid mistake I made: I forgot to factor in the height of the keyboard itself (approximately 1.5 inches for my mechanical keyboard) when planning the height of the desk. I measured the distance away from the floor that I wanted my hands to be at, but forgot that in practice they would be 1.5 inches higher. This is a continuous annoyance making me look forward to replacing this "temporary" desk.

* As others have said, a gel pad may be helpful. I think this may be a matter of taste. I personally use one, but I sometimes move it away since it can cause a weird "floating" sensation at times.

* I do a lot of periodic movement while I am working or thinking. I squat, leg-lift, walk, sway, stand on one foot, etc. I feel this helps keep me from feeling "locked up" in a standing position.

* If you can situate your desk so that you are back up against a wall, you can also do a lean-back arrangement which is pretty comfortable.

</comment><comment><USER53> Second the experience about better focus while sitting. But I prefer to stand for a while (~30min) when just arriving at work, coming from a meeting, or back from lunch.

It helps me stay "active and focused" on taking control of what I'm doing ... which is super for making sure I get started with actual work rather than drifting off onto some lazy web surfing or whatever.

And then, after getting properly into my work (opened the IDE / tmux/vim setup and started to code), I tend to slip down in my seat pretty quickly, to get into proper un-distracted focus.

Getting back to standing mode occasionally if getting too drowsy etc.

</comment><comment><USER54> I have an ergotron sit-stand desk, and a high-quality foam pad to stand on.

I started my standing experiment with an ikea hack (just a small lack table with a shelf attached for a keyboard). I liked it enough that i invested in an ergotron (I work from home, so my bought my desk setup). I made the decision to invest when I realized I had switched from "okay let me sit down and get to work" to "okay, time to work, let me stand up and get to it".

I still sit during the day, whenever I get tired or something, and when I am not at home I am unable to stand for as long - I think the foam pad makes a huge difference.

</comment><comment><USER55> I feel more focused while standing. I am also the type of person who needs at least a little action going on in the background to really get in the zone (like at a coffee shop).

I have been standing primarily now for over a year and even converted my home gaming computer desk to a standing desk. Yep I stand while pc gaming...lol.

It really helps me feel better, back issues aside, because I feel like I am moving more. Even just the switching feet position.

The only advice I have is to get a good padded mat. I started without one and it was painful on my feet and legs.

</comment><comment><USER56> I have a knee issue that makes sitting extremely uncomfortable, so I built a standing desk a year or so ago. I can never go back, it's been so much easier to focus and get things done without trying to get comfortable.

I had knee surgery a few weeks back trying to solve the problem, which has forced me to be sitting all day, but I've been counting the days until I can be back at my standing desk.

Instead of a chair, I built a leaning stool out of an old cane. Takes up less space than a chair and easier to transition to as well.

</comment><comment><USER57> I'm trying to stand for about 2 hours a day. I can't do more than that as I get tired quickly. I've noticed my posture has improved and I feel better when I get home

</comment><comment> dee-see I am a twitchy/boderline-ADHD type of guy. When I don't get (a lot) of exercice because of lack of time or whatever other reason I simply cannot concentrate and spend my day changing position in my chair and losing focus.

My sit/stand desk solved that issue and when I'm standing I feel a lot more focused. Even if in the end I'm not moving _that_ much more than while seated, it feels like a world of difference to just be able to step around and move my legs a bit.

</comment><comment><USER58> Adding a standing desk helped me getting things done right after lunch. I'd usually turn into a vegetable sitting at my desk from 1 to 2pm. That's where I see the benefits of having a standing desk. It helps digesting food... I also use my chair to sit on my knee while my desk is still in standing position. This happens to be the most relaxing position for me after standing for a while. It's a good stretch. Then, back to sitting position.

</comment><comment><USER59> I have a sit/stand desk at work and home. I tend to stand about 4-6 hours a day, and haven't noticed any difficulty concentrating when doing so. I feel more alert and prefer standing unless I have foot pain.

I deal with that by shifting weight balance (by leaning, or putting one foot on a box or up against the wall) and I have a pretty comfy mat to stand on. If it's uncomfortable I'll just switch to sitting for a while.

I also walk ~3 miles a day.

</comment><comment><USER60> Makes my lower back pain worse. I also can't get in the 'zone' as easily. I have a powered standing desk and sit at it 90-95% of the time.

<comment><USER61> I posted this to another commenter with back pain, maybe it can help you:

Read this about APT: [http://www.anteriorpelvictilthq.com/anterior-pelvic- tilt/](http://www.anteriorpelvictilthq.com/anterior-pelvic-tilt/), not saying you have it, but it's possible. I had back pain for a long time because I thought I was "standing up straight". Really I was arching my lower back really badly and it caused all the pain. Did the same thing when driving. Once I realized what it was, I was able to correct it and now the pain is not nearly as bad.

Hanging helped a little and so did the traction machine at the sports medicine doctor, aka Chiropractor. Things like that only helped until I got to the root of the problem.

I hope this helps in some way and your back gets better.

EDIT: Also, when you go to get something off the ground, go down to one knee instead of squatting down, that one was straight from the doctor and actually helped a lot.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> I don't use one ... I am fine with sitting as long as I workout regularly. That means I'm definitely doing squats or leg press as well as upper and lower back exercises. I need this not only to tire me out so I don't get restless sitting but also for posture and support. Eat little or no lunch -- light salad or soup or just yogurt and fruit -- to avoid fatigue and digestive troubles.

</comment><comment><USER63> I have a sit/stand varidesk. I find myself being lazy with posture when sitting, which leads to neck/shoulder problems. Being able to stand helps this immensely, however I do about 1 hour standing, then 30-45 sitting (meetings, lunch, sometimes work from sitting position). I do tend to shift a bit while standing, and the choice of shoes becomes important.

Definitely would not go back to just sitting.

</comment><comment><USER64> After debating and procrastinating, I finally got a standing desk. (Ikea) Should have done it a long time ago. I have a floor mat was well. I usually stand during the day and sit / stand at night.

People should note that with any new position it takes a little time for your body to adjust to the new position. So if you are standing, your legs will hurt for a week or two. But then you will get over it.

</comment><comment><USER65> I started using a treadmill desk in 2007 and switched to simply standing around 2011. I like it largely because it helps counteract lulls in energy, e.g. after lunch.

Your ability to concentrate while standing will improve over time, but for certain tasks like intense coding, I often prefer to sit, even after this many years.

I have an Ikea Bekant desk with motorized adjustment and probably alternate 2-3 times a day.

</comment><comment><USER66> "My problem is that I find it much harder to concentrate while I am standing and I am writing much more code while sitting."

I used to have this problem as well. Over time, my body adjusted and now standing is so natural, I have trouble working if I am sitting. That process took about 6 months. I've been standing for about 4 years now and have a gel pad for the floor.

</comment><comment><USER67> I have an Autonomous AI desk, got it shipped to UAE paying nearly double the price due to shipping and waiting about 3 months. I consider it money well spent.

I find that in long stretches of work I really need to switch between standing and sitting else I become irritated. When I work outside home I'm most productive at a specific cafe that has both standup and sit down tables.

<comment><USER68> Just because you mentioned the UAE, how can I get in touch with you to ask you some trivial questions, regarding this desk?

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> It's great, I've been using one for ~2 years. I bought a powered adjustable one, but have only ever lowered it once when I had my ACL done about a year ago. Otherwise, I stand the entire day and find I can focus pretty well.

I also noticed I drink a bit more water and move around a little bit more since there isn't the "get up from sitting" process.

</comment><comment><USER70> If you're thinking about standing instead of your task, you may need a foot rest or better antifatigue mat (or both).

I have a Humanscale Float (non-electric adjustable sit/stand desk) and I love it. It was a bit expensive but being able to very quickly transition between sitting and standing means I'm more likely to do it.

</comment><comment><USER71> I got one about four months ago. It is an electric lift desk, takes about 20 seconds to switch. Most days I leave it standing. I'm definitely getting better at standing. At first it hard to focus while standing, but now it is easy. When I switch to sitting it takes a while to get focused, since it feels strange.

</comment><comment><USER72> I like that I'm not just sitting all day. But I can't focus hard while standing. My feet become restless.

For me there's a huge difference in focusing while standing and while sitting. I start the day with emails and busy work while standing and sit after I really start to dig in to a problem that needs focus.

</comment><comment><USER73> Everyone on my team has an automated sit-stand desk. Just walked around the office and not a single one is in "stand mode", and that's not likely to change. It's a neat idea, and I've known people who swear by it, but in practice it's one thing extra to have to think about.

<comment><USER26> My office has these as well - maybe 1 in 20 people use it as standing on a regular basis.

We do use them more often when someone swings by your desk to look at some code or troubleshoot. Having everyone at the same height balances the dynamic and makes the screens easier to see.

</comment></comment><comment><USER74> I use it every day. We have the fancy motorized ones with preset heights at my job, so I do alternate between sitting and standing but I probably do at least 3-6 hours of standing per work day.

I have never had any problems concentrating—once I actually get focussed, I completely stop noticing that I'm standing.

</comment><comment><USER75> I envy people who can use standing desks. I tried for a few months but my right knee hurt pretty badly after a while. I realized I was constantly leaning on my right leg and just couldn't stop myself. Interestingly, I think most people do this more than they realize but can tolerate it better.

<comment><USER76> Do you have a history of knee issues? If not, you may want to check out some mobility stuff (mobilitywod.com). For me, tight hip flexors + IT band + achilles meant the whole system was tight and hurt after a bit of use. Check it out.

<comment> 52-6F-62 Wow, I've been having some knee pains (runners knee?) lately, but haven't had time to really investigate. This looks like a great tool to at least get started.

Not really related to standing desks, more my workout (though I've found sitting for long periods of time with runner's knee no more comfortable than standing. Sometimes it was worse). Anyway thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> Worked at one in my previous job for the majority of the day, found it much more comfortable. Found it a bit harder to concentrate on process tasks, but found it better for creative ones where I bounced from foot to foot and spun on the spot. Much easier to not stare at the screen when stood up.

</comment><comment><USER78> Herman Miller - worth ever penny of the $10,000 USD I spent (SV). Also, Dat Embody Chair: [http://store.hermanmiller.com/Products/Embody- Chair](http://store.hermanmiller.com/Products/Embody-Chair) (I paid $500 USD) worth it.

</comment><comment><USER79> It's working great for me. It's interesting to see how it's not working so well for others. Whenever someone asks me I always say something like "It works great for ME, but you might hate it, so get a super cheap lift thing before you invest in a real desk".

</comment><comment><USER80> Similar to you - I alternate between standing and sitting (not every hour though)

I also find it hard to write code when standing so I use standing position mostly for reading, calls, standups etc. when I want to get in the "zone" \- only sitting + headphones works for me.

<comment><USER81> I was thinking better work stand up for more focus, and take short breaks sitting, relaxing reading.

</comment></comment><comment><USER82> Have you tried working in a tatami desk? I found that it works well for me. Working in a tatami forces you to sit in a seiza style, which in turn forces you to straighten your back. The Japanese say it's supposed to be a "proper" way of sitting.

<comment><USER83> For those more inexperienced, it can really hurt after a while to sit like that, and even for those experienced it's probably not recommended to stay in such a position for a long time.

I think all of these solutions miss one of the problems with working at a desk: you're sedentary, and that's ultimately bad for the heart. I can't find a source at the moment, but I read an article here a while ago by the AMA which did an investigation into the effects of sitting/being still. They said that it's better to just move more (and spend a much reduced time sitting) than it is to sit slightly less and engage in intensive exercise.

Humans haven't evolved to be spending eight hours a day sitting in roughly the same place with breaks for coffee. Just like lack of exercise, it's poisoning.

<comment><USER82> I completely agree. I don't necessarily stay in that position all day. I make sure to take lots of breaks, either by standing up and walking around or taking a cup of coffee.

And yes, exercising definitely helps with most, if not all the posture problems. Make sure your exercise program involves some good stretching and strength workouts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> I'm looking to buy or make a standing desk now.

What desks are you using and do you have any recommendations?

<comment><USER85> I have a desk from the Human Solution made with reclaimed wood. It wasn't cheap, but it's solid and it looks great. Friends are always complementing me on it. It's been working well for about two years now.

[http://www.thehumansolution.com/stand-up-desk-with- reclaimed...](http://www.thehumansolution.com/stand-up-desk-with-reclaimed- wood-top.html)

<comment><USER84> Oh nice. Do you adjust the monitor height when you lift/lower the desk.

I was thinking of making something similar to the gaze desk. I just need to find the right hardware for it. [http://www.gazedesk.com/en/product/sample- product/gaze-desk-...](http://www.gazedesk.com/en/product/sample-product/gaze- desk-smart-duo-prestige/)

<comment><USER85> > Do you adjust the monitor height when you lift/lower the desk.

No. I use Ergotron arms ([http://www.ergotron.com/en- us/](http://www.ergotron.com/en-us/)) for my MacBook and external monitor. Everything is always at the right height regardless of whether I'm sitting or standing.

Here's a picture of my setup:

[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16620309/standingdesk.jp...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16620309/standingdesk.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> Works great, but as you said, I can't code as well standing. So I code sitting, and try and browse / everything else standing. If I need to sit for too long I take 5ish minute walks often (probably one or two an hour)

</comment><comment><USER87> This anti-fatigue mat with some special topography made a big difference for me: [http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00V3TO9EK](http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00V3TO9EK)

</comment><comment><USER88> Standing hurts my lower back within 10 minutes.

Probably a mobility issue. The pain is similar as if I try to do an overhead press.

I have been squatting for 60 seconds twice a day. I should probably try hanging too. Any other ideas ?

<comment><USER54> you might want to try a balance board. i've been meaning to get one myself - they apparently are good for low-back pains.

<comment><USER89> I've found that balance boards (on top of a tube) require too much concentration to balance. Instead I used a skateboard deck on a cushion[0] at my standing desk. You can adjust difficulty by adjusting the inflation of the cushion.

[0]: [http://indoboard.com/cushion](http://indoboard.com/cushion)

<comment><USER54> huh, I'd been eying a fluidstance board (put off a bit by the price), but those indoboards are way cheaper. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> I think better when I sit.

I crank out volume when I stand.

Switching between them is pretty great.

</comment><comment> wu-ikkyu Great, as long as I'm wearing a comfortable pair of tennis shoes. Otherwise, if I'm wearing a pair of dressy leather shoes, my feet quickly begin to ache.

<comment><USER91> Get a thick foam mat. I got one designed for standing on when working in a garage and it makes a big difference. Cost about $10.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> > _My problem is that I find it much harder to concentrate while I am > standing_

similar experience. i find sitting with good posture more comfortable and better on the knees

</comment><comment><USER93> FYI standing long causes varicosity in legs. It is not a bad condition mostly an aesthetic issue, but I'd prefer not to have it.

</comment><comment><USER17> standing was cool, but nowhere near as good for me as my current reclining setup. With reclining, I'm far more comfortable to work long hours, have more energy for other things, sleeping better when I get to bed, and I get outdoors to exercise. Overall feeling better than any other seating/standing arrangement I've had.

</comment><comment><USER94> I can warmly recommend this book for treating back pain and posture problems: [1].

[1] Robin A. McKenzie, "Treat Your Own Back".

<comment><USER27> I will check that out. I just ordered Kelly Starret's The Supple Leopard which comes highly recommended.

<comment><USER94> Starret's book looks great, and it covers a LOT of information, but because of that it may not be suitable for everyone.

Otoh, the McKenzie book is very concise and gets you started almost immediately.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER95> I use mine at my workplace to make my desk slightly higher and that's it. Standing hurts my back wayyyy too much.

</comment><comment><USER96> Really good investment. I have the small electric one from Ikea.

There are ones that have a preset, and I wish mine had that option.

</comment><comment><USER97> Do you use anti-fatigue mats when you're standing? I find that it helps a lot.

<comment> a-priori I've been using a standing desk for about three years. At first I used two anti-fatigue mats, doubled-up. I found one mat wasn't enough, and three felt like I was floating (hard on the ankles, like walking on sand).

Then about a year ago I tried going without, and found I didn't need them anymore.

So basically I suggest using them when you're getting started, but after that do whatever works for you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER98> related to this, are there any decent standing desks for < 200$?

<comment> a-priori I've been using this setup for the last three-ish years, and it works great.

[http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dolla...](http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/Ikea-Standing-desk- for-22-dollars.html)

<comment><USER99> I built something very similar too. My setup is to have two screens, one for standing, one for sitting (and two set of input devices). I close one screen when I'm using the other and I mirror the image on both screens.

I have another setup with an Ergotron Workfit (can be lifted up and down) but I find that the position is more adjustable with my mirror-screen version. With the Ergotron the position of the hands relative to screen is fixed so eye-screen distance can't be adjusted as well as I'd like. Also screen height doesn't go as high as I'd like.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER100> Mines great. I'm sitting at it right now.

</comment><comment><USER101> I've got a bad back...

</comment><comment><USER102> My back is fucked up from hard living, and a minor auto collision. Standing desk definitely helps, I stand exclusively when possible.

I have the opposite experience, if you're a fidget-y ADHD person, standing desks can be great. Sitting in a chair all day is torture.

Also invest in an anti-fatigue mat IMO.

</comment><comment><USER103> When I worked in an office that had them, I preferred to sit most of the time, standing to break the monotony. I don't think I noticed a difference in coding productivity between standing and sitting, though.

</comment><comment><USER104> Also curious about people who enjoy it and say it helps with back pain etc. :

What's your age and how active are you?</comment>


Who owns a scientist's mind? - <AUTHOR> https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.3972 <comment><USER2> "I deal in information," he says to the smarmy, toadying pseudojournalist who "interviews" him. He's sitting in his office in Houston, looking slicker than normal. "All television going out to consumers throughout the world goes through me. Most of the information transmitted to and from the CIC database passes through my networks. The Metaverse—the entire Street—exists by virtue of a network that I own and control.

"But that means, if you'll just follow my reasoning for a bit, that when I have a programmer working under me who is working with that information, he is wielding enormous power. Information is going into his brain. And it's staying there. It travels with him when he goes home at night. It gets all tangled up into his dreams, for Christ's sake. He talks to his wife about it. And, goddamn it, he doesn't have any right to that information. If I was running a car factory, I wouldn't let workers drive the cars home or borrow tools. But that's what I do at five o'clock each day, all over the world, when my hackers go home from work.

"When they used to hang rustlers in the old days, the last thing they would do is piss their pants. That was the ultimate sign, you see, that they had lost control over their own bodies, that they were about to die. See, it's the first function of any organization to control its own sphincters. We're not even doing that. So we're working on refining our management techniques so that we can control that information no matter where it is—on our hard disks or even inside the programmers' heads. Now, I can't say more because I got competition to worry about. But it is my fervent hope that in five or ten years, this kind of thing won't even be an issue."

\-- L. Bob Rife (from Snow Crash)

<comment><USER3> I get the comparison, but I think it is simply wrong. Knowledge based business are different from factories.

It's a price of doing business in information businesses that information leaks onto your employees.

<comment><USER4> Knowledge leaks onto employees even in factories. That's why a welder with 30 years of experience is different than one that is fresh out of trade school. Better knowledge of tools, techniques, etc. You could hire a senior welder and set up your own operation from scratch.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> a-dub It's actually quite interesting. I had beers with a development officer for a major research university a few months ago. To me, this was a fascinating opportunity to "learn about how the world really works" so I had all sorts of silly questions like "how much do people pay to buy their child an undeserved spot in an incoming class" and whatever. That replies were silly, but not particularly interesting.

What was interesting...

Apparently there's recently been a new stream of potential donors of a certain type, specifically they are very interested in donating towards specific types of research (there's nothing new here, giving to XXX institution to support cancer research has been happening forever). What is different, is that in exchange, THEY WANT THE IP AT THE END so that they may commercialize it.

Of course this is silly, the PI owns their IP and when it's transferred out it usually goes to the PI's company with some cut on future revenues going to the university...

I just thought it was amusing that there's people out there hangin' around universities, hoping to buy IP under the auspices of calling it charitable giving.

<comment><USER5> At the university where I did my MS, the university owned the IP.

Patents were a standard affair: the university owned and paid for the patent, the researcher(s) (including the PI and grad students) got inventorship. In the eventuality of a licensing deal, university would get a 50% cut, the inventors would get the remaining 50%.

It was a significant revenue stream for the university.

<comment><USER6> Yes, there are lots of famous examples. E.g. John Chowning invented FM synthesis for musical applications but had to assign the patent to Stanford where he worked as a researcher: "The FM patent produced about $22.9 million in royalties for Stanford University (largely via the sale of FM chips for soundcards)." With a patent date of 1975 and a duration of 20 years, they must have received royalties until 1995 off every OPL family chip (used in Ad Lib, Sound Blaster, etc) and all the Yamaha instruments based on FM synthesis (I believe Yamaha had an exclusive license in that market). That's just one particular example I happened to remember, but every tech-focused university probably has a large portfolio of these sorts of patents.

<comment><USER7> Stanford also owns the original PageRank patent, and licensed it to Google for 1.8 million shares. Apparently they sold those in 2005, earning $336 million.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Companies will do ANYTHING to try to hire and retain the best people -- except pay them well and treat them well.

<comment><USER9> Not all companies, just most. I didn't believe it existed before I got to my current gig, but there are some silicon valley companies that pay well and treat workers well. It would take a hell of a lot for me to leave.

<comment><USER10> Are you treated well in terms of your intellectual freedoms? Are your rights preserved in your employment contract?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

Again and again we find the greed of the corporation violates the spirit of why we've got any form copyright or patent. The Author and the Inventors don't own anything, the wealthy do.

<comment><USER12> Copyright (and associated rights) have _always_ been about _control_.

It's been that way since the 16th Century (with the creation of a monopoly of printing given to the Worshipful Company of Stationers by Queen Mary I) through to the first 'modern' copyright act in the 18th Century, the Statute of Anne.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is my number one criteria for a job offer. I will not sign anything that brings into question my right to freely pursue creative projects in my own time. I'm fortunate that, as a programmer, I am in the minority of the population that actually has some bargaining power when it comes to employment contracts.

It seems to me time and again that the United States' priorities were in far better shape a hundred or so years ago.

<comment><USER14> Do you have any tips on how to make this happen? When I graduated I felt like I didn't have much leverage on the job offer, but now that I have a couple years of experience I think I can negotiate a better deal.

<comment><USER15> begin with having multiple offers in hand.

<comment><USER16> And in practice, this is quite difficult when companies only hand out "exploding" offers.

And then you're back to how good the candidate's negotiating skills are, rather than that person's skill at whatever occupation you're hiring them into. Companies would rather not think too hard about the moral implications of trying to cheat someone out of what they're worth, though.

<comment><USER17> Don't accept exploding offers. Ever. It's a scam.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "In one famous 2009 case, Sergey Aleynikov, a former programmer for Goldman Sachs, was arrested, prosecuted, and sentenced to eight years in prison without parole for stealing trade secrets. The trade secret in question was code he had written himself, then backed up onto cloud storage while he was still an employee. There was no evidence he had accessed the code since leaving Goldman Sachs."

Holy shit! I didn't even realize that was a prison-level crime.

<comment><USER19> The article doesn't mention the rest of Aleynikov's history, but he served one year in prison[1] until his NY Supreme Court acquittal.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Aleynikov)

<comment><USER20> Better than what he was sentenced to, but a year in prison is a long, long time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The fact this question is even being asked is horrifying.

It speaks volumes to the arrogance and greed running rampant through the highest echelons of our society.

Things have been going downhill dangerously fast in the tech explosion of the last 30 years. Our society's technical capabilities have fast outpaced the development of a societal wisdom that leads to healthy and ethical outcomes in terms of governing how and when tech should be utilized.

Should our off-balance society ever fall off the horse so much that even a half-hearted attempt is made to justify the theft of a man's right to his own mind in the name of intellectual property rights, I would wager things have deteriorated to the point where a metaphorical bullet to the head of whatever farce of a societal framework is in place at the time is warranted.

</comment><comment><USER22> The extreme was already explored by Philip K. Dick in his 1952 short story _Paycheck:_ [https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Paycheck_(short_story)](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Paycheck_\(short_story\))

> _Jennings, a talented electronic engineer, has accepted a secret contract > with Rethrick Construction. The terms of the contract state that he will > work for two years on a secret project after which he will have his memory > of the time erased and will be paid an inordinate sum. It is implied that > this type of working contract has replaced non-disclosure agreements in > business and is commonplace._

<comment><USER23> Wow, didn't know that the godawful Ben Affleck movie was actually based on something! I will give it a read.

<comment><USER22> There seems to be a trend... Schwarzenegger's _Total Recall_ , Nick Cage's _Next_ , Matt Damon's _The Adjustment Bureau_ , etc. are all based on Philip K. Dick stories. But fortunately some adaptations have turned quite good: _Blade Runner_ , _A Scanner Darkly_ , _Minority Report_ , _The Man in the High Castle_...

<comment><USER24> It was a bit of chick-flick I guess but I liked "The Adjustment Bureau". Call me a romantic..

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I often felt that 19th century law was usually more humane. I mean, yes human rights were violated on a racial, cultural and financial basis, but if you were in the in-group then you actually had rights. It seems like once we started earnest movements towards civil rights then the legal discrimination was pushed back to just the financial front, so I guess that's a net gain for most but we still have work to do.

<comment><USER26> The in-group still actually has rights. Cutoff for membership seems to be around $100M.

<comment><USER25> Yes but hard-working middle class people are not in the in-group like they once were.

<comment><USER27> There was a brief post-war era where that was the case. But that era ended in 1973 [1]

1\. [https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay- gap/](https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/)

<comment><USER28> I think it 'ended' before that and that's just the rot starting to set in to provide actual proof.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> If an idea is in my head, nobody else but me should should be able to control this idea.

the rights of the owner of the idea should never reach inside my head.

going further, if a file is in my personal disk which I physically control, the rights of the file's creator should never reach into my personal disk.

specially given that the file can exist in any number of disks.

<comment><USER30> > If an idea is in my head, nobody else but me should should be able to > control this idea.

It's not quite that simple. What if that idea occurs as a result of work you've done for, or things you've learned from your, employer? Do they have NO claim to that, even if you decide to use it to compete against them?

<comment><USER20> If you're in an enlightened state like CA, you may think things are not so bad. In MA, a low-level programmer working on, say, banking software, can be prevented for up to three years from working at another banking software company. Keep in mind, that experience is the prime driver of a person's ability to earn more money over time. I'm not talking about stealing secrets or brilliant insights. I'm talking about basic knowledge of how the banking industry works.

Of course now I've seen news stories about fast-food workers having similar non-competes, so i guess it can always be worse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> It's pretty cool to see this article mention Polanyi, who is very pertinent I think. Yes, he wrote about tacit knowledge as something not formalizable. But it's not just that. His goal was to protect scientists' freedom from Soviet goals of centrally planned discoveries. Science doesn't work that way, he argued. And it seems similar ideas can be applied to these employment contracts: the company gets benefits while the scientist is employed, but once they leave, the new directions of their research are unpredictable, and shouldn't be owned or controlled by non-competes etc. That's a pretty vague connection, but I feel like someone could develop it further.

</comment><comment><USER23> A friend of mine was put into quarantine a while ago, that's what you can do in Sweden if you want to prevent people from going to the competitor. Basically, you can't work for any other employer that competes with your previous employer doing what you used to do.

The catch? You have to pay the person you've quarantined throughout this ordeal, and the person you've quarantined can work at a restaurant or something and make two wages.

<comment><USER12> This is known as "Garden(ing) Leave" in British English: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_leave)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> this made me think of the book _disciplined minds_. while not directly related and is more focused on behavioral, managerial, and systematic issues, it is a very interesting look into who controls the direction of research, work, and perspectives.

</comment><comment><USER33> In the case of Albert Einstein, the Mütter Museum in Philadelphia, and the National Museum of Health and Medicine.</comment>


Naturopathy vs. Science: Prenatal Vitamins - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/naturopathy-vs-science-prenatal-vitamins/

<comment><USER2> Reminds me of this[1] Clickhole article that I found quite funny.

I don't quite understand the (scary) propensity towards believing outrageous claims made by non-experts with no scientific review or consensus in many fields - especially medicine. It almost seems that people _want_ to believe these claims. Is it a desire to know more than someone else?

Does anyone know the psychology behind it?

[1] [http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/my-doctor-told-me-i- should...](http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/my-doctor-told-me-i-should- vaccinate-my-children-t-653)

<comment><USER3> I think part of it is desperation. If someone is diagnosed with an incurable or untreatable disease or condition, then it's natural to try to look for some sort of treatment that will yield better results.

That means applying less skepticism towards "alternative" therapies.

Then you also have the following working against science: \- Confirmation bias \- Mistaking coincidence with causation \- Overly aggressive pattern matching

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> For people who are interested in this type of thing, I recommend listening to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. I've listened for a few years now, and it is a fun/funny way to learn about science, critical thinking, and debunking bad science like this.</comment>


Bear with us over ad placement: sometimes AI isn't very intelligent at all - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/03/ad-placement-ai-guardian-disasters-racism <comment><AUTHOR> Every year for the last 20 years I've read articles that talk about advanced AI to help better target advertisements. And yet this kind of misplacement continues, and apparently editors at magazines still feel they lack the tools they would like to have to better avoid certain embarrassing accidents. How many more years are needed? Will we ever have AI that is strong enough that editors will be able to guide it so as to avoid certain embarrassing conflicts?</comment>


Ask HN: Best-architected open-source business applications worth studying? - <AUTHOR> Not just good code described in books like Code Complete, But aslo has a great architecture as a whole, and should be open source business applications, as there are many great library/framework/generic applications like Yii Redis Lua Linux, but open source business applications with great architecture not easy to find. <comment><USER2> Nginx and Git.

Nginx has a lot of respect on the market for handling high concurrency as well as exhibiting high performance and efficiency.

I don't even have to speak about the Git architecture. It speaks plainly for itself.

There's a series of books called The Architecture of Open Source Applications that does justice to this topic

[http://aosabook.org/en/index.html](http://aosabook.org/en/index.html)

<comment><USER3> I love git, but the learning curve seems very high for the unititiated. Git seems to work best as the assembly language of source control for a lot of people. It's okay as long as you put a nice GUI on top of it.

Even though I'm pretty comfortable with git thanks to attending a two day workshop conducted by a guy from Github, I still like using tortoise git.

<comment><USER4> It's sad so many people use GUIs on top of git - you really end up not understanding what git is doing and it can lead to problems. Command line is supreme for the same reason that a majority of books are better than their movie counterparts. They are easier, though, but in the case of git that isn't a good thing.

<comment><USER5> I agree, but this is a symptom of a larger problem.

Really I'm disappointed that people don't build their computers from scratch these days. You don't know what's going on when you have so many components joined together with random blobs of firmware.

Give me a bare Z80, a bunch of RAM, and anybody could understand it. Plus if you're writing your code in assembly you can optimize better than any compiler - they wouldn't know enough to use your opcodes as constants when you need to.

/s

<comment><USER6> Honestly that just sounds way too complicated... I do it all in my head.

<comment><USER7> To think I've been writing all my code out on paper. I need to get on your level. /s

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Meta: So far (23 top level answers) we have: Nginx, Git, Guava, Photoshop (?!), Discourse, OpenBSD (and: other BSDs, Plan9, BSD tools, Linux, LLVM/Clang, WebKit, Chrome, Firefox, Quake 1-3, Doom 3, CPython, TensorFlow), Hashicorp's tools, Redis, Mysql, Postgresql, Apache HTTP server.

Wasn't the question about business applications?

Redeeming answers: ERPNext, Odoo, OpenERP, OpenERM

<comment><USER9> "Wasn't the question about business applications?"

Define "business application".

To me, it would be defined as "application used in a business" (EDIT: or more precisely: "application upon which a business is built"). Web servers, databases, and (maybe) operating systems definitely qualify. So do web browsers.

<comment><USER10> Your definition is not the common one, I don't think.

<comment><USER9> Probably not. Nonetheless, "business application" is still pretty vague, IMO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There's been a good deal of academic work on architectural differences between open source and closed source applications (basically resulting from the differences in the organizational structures that designed/built/grew them ala Conway's Law). Observations for example include reports that closed source applications tend to have more large scale API classes/layers, because there is a management structure in the designing organization that can herd them into existence, while open source projects of the same size and complexity tend to have a less centralized architecture, again reflecting the organizing characteristics of the developers involved[0].

None of this is arguing that one or the other style of architecture is "better" per se, but rather the architectures are different because they were in the end optimized for different kinds of development organizations.

Most business applications remain fundamentally a three-tiered architecture, with the interesting stuff today tending to happen in how you slice that up into microservices, how you manage the front end views (PHP and static web apps are pretty different evolutionary branches), and critically how you orchestrate the release and synchronization/discovery of all those microservices.

(None of which is directly an answer to your question, but is more meant to say that lots of the most interesting stuff is getting harder to spot in a conventional github repository because much of it is moving much closer to the ops side of devOps)

[0] [http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/08-039_1861e5...](http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/08-039_1861e507-1dc1-4602-85b8-90d71559d85b.pdf)

<comment><USER12> Do you have the name or a link to one of these studies?

<comment><USER11> I've updated the parent comment with a citation.

I'll also mention a somewhat related article here, not directly on topic, but likely interesting to those reading about conway's law and architectures: Microsoft Research did some very interesting work on the interplay of code quality and organizational metrics (e.g. how high in the org chart do you have to go to get everyone who committed code to a specific DLL or what fraction of the developers under that lead engineer committed code to that DLL, or etc). Their conclusion, simply put, was that organizational metrics appeared to better model actual end user experienced shipped code quality than more traditional test metrics[0].

[0] [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/the- inf...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/the-influence-of- organizational-structure-on-software-quality-an-empirical-case-study/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Checkout ERPNext ([https://GitHub.com/frappe/erpnext](https://GitHub.com/frappe/erpnext)). It is based on a metadata framework (Frappe) that lets you build by configuration, so complexity can be handled much better.

Frappe also lets you build extensions (apps), add hooks to standard events, has a built in RESTAPI and more. Here is a quick overview [https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/rushabh_mehta/frapp- framew...](https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/rushabh_mehta/frapp-framework-a- full-stack-web-framework)

Disclaimer: see my bio

</comment><comment><USER14> Spree is an open source e-commerce solution. IMHO has good architecture for learning.

Spree has a clean API, clear models, front end and back end, extensions, and command line tools.

[https://github.com/spree/spree](https://github.com/spree/spree)

Especially take a look at the models:

[https://github.com/spree/spree/tree/master/core/app/models/s...](https://github.com/spree/spree/tree/master/core/app/models/spree)

<comment><AUTHOR> a great app, thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> [http://www.aosabook.org/](http://www.aosabook.org/) \- I actually did not get much out of this book, i felt my time was more efficiently spent studying languages and databases.

But this chapter is great: [http://www.aosabook.org/en/500L/an-archaeology- inspired-data...](http://www.aosabook.org/en/500L/an-archaeology-inspired- database.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> By business app, I'm interpreting as something that might be a a basis for writing an enterprise application or an application that might be used by enterprise and not the infrastructure-type of stuff I see posted below like NGINX, Git, etc...

Something that's expandable by multiple departments, expandable business- specific logic, modular, plug-in infrastructure, the ability to work with multiple authentication schemes, etc....

Take a look at Liferay Portal: [https://github.com/liferay/liferay- portal/](https://github.com/liferay/liferay-portal/)

Edit: fixed all my typos.

</comment><comment><USER17> For an OSS business application, Rundeck ([http://rundeck.org/](http://rundeck.org/)) is very polished and has a clean architecture. The concepts for setting up jobs, schedules, ACLs, etc, is clearly thought out and flexible.

</comment><comment><USER18> [http://aosabook.org/en/index.html](http://aosabook.org/en/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER19> Discourse [https://github.com/discourse/discourse](https://github.com/discourse/discourse)

<comment><USER20> I love discourse and learnt a hell of a lot from it! It did however lead me to using ember in my open source project ( [https://github.com/etewiah/property_web_builder](https://github.com/etewiah/property_web_builder) ) which I rather regret.....

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> There is a nice site site about this subject: The Architecture of Open Source Applications [http://aosabook.org/en/index.html](http://aosabook.org/en/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER22> Two I am familiar with are OpenERP and OpenEMR.

OpenERP, now Odoo, is written in Python.

OpenEMR is written in PHP. It dates from a while ago, but has been mostly updated to the latest PSR standards.

Might also try OrangeHCM, but not sure what those guys are doing these days.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm not exactly sure what is meant by business. Commercial successful?

Anyway, here are some projects which I can recommend by its source code:

* OpenBSD. Also the other BSDs. Plan9. And the BSD tools. Linux is a bit bloated but maybe it has to be. I don't recommend the GNU tools.

* LLVM/Clang.

* WebKit. Also Chrome. Firefox not so much, although maybe it improved.

* Quake 1-3, as well as other earlier id games. Really elegant and clean. Also not that big in total. Doom 3 has become much bigger in comparison but again maybe it has to be.

* CPython. Anyway interesting also for educational purpose.

* TensorFlow. Very much not Theano.

I really enjoy reading the source code of most projects which I used at some point. Some code is nicer, some not so nice, mostly judged by how easy it is to understand and how elegant it seems to be. In any case it really is rewarding to look at it as you will gain a much better understanding of the software and often you will also learn something new.

<comment><AUTHOR> My understanding for business application, the short answer is: software with special business purpose

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Amongst the other great suggestions you could also have a look at Redis ([https://redis.io](https://redis.io))

</comment><comment><USER25> One of my favorite "open source architecture" essays is on Graphite:

[http://www.aosabook.org/en/graphite.html](http://www.aosabook.org/en/graphite.html)

It's part of the book, "Architecture of Open Source Applications", which has many such essays. This one is freely available -- and quite good.

Graphite is used for the business purpose of simple & fast real-time analytics for custom metrics inside an organization. It was built inside Orbitz and is now widely used at many startups, including my own.

Graphite is now a vibrant open source project with a community around it here:

[https://graphiteapp.org/](https://graphiteapp.org/)

<comment><USER26> Graphite has long ago hit the end of its useful life. Its limitations especially in the Whisper/RRD storage system are well known and lamented by those who still need to run it. A strictly-superior system (and a great OSS project to learn from, to boot) is Prometheus, [https://prometheus.io](https://prometheus.io).

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Applications dont really need to be well architected until they are hitting scale. Then the parts of their system that need to relieve pressure will need to be re-architected. This is almost like a case study and there are a lot of good talks on youtube from places like dropbox and facebook that explain the problem and solution. Example: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE4gwstWhmc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE4gwstWhmc)

If you dont want to do youtube case studies there are also books to read about distributed systems. Also reading about cloud architecture can help.

<comment><USER28> > Applications don't really need to be well architected until they are hitting > scale.

very True, 'a system Well architected' before hitting scale is considered OVER Engineering

> Then the parts of their system that need to relieve pressure will need to be > re-architected.

> This is almost like a case study and there are a lot of good talks on > youtube from places like dropbox and facebook that explain the problem and > solution. Example: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE4gwstWhmc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE4gwstWhmc)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> As far as I know sqlite has the reputation of being great (mostly for the test coverage and sheer amount of unit tests).

</comment><comment><USER3> From a usability and installation experience, Hashicorp's tools. One very small executable for each of their products that work as the client or server, a simple command to join them in a cluster, and reasonable defaults and the ones I've used work well together.

The learning curve to go from I've never heard of them to reading about them, to installing them and using them was very small at least for Consul, Nomad, and Vault.

</comment><comment><USER30> Check out ERPNext written in python [https://erpnext.com](https://erpnext.com)

</comment><comment><USER31> For iOS engineers, I'd recommend reading over the Kickstarter iOS application ([https://github.com/kickstarter/ios-oss](https://github.com/kickstarter/ios- oss)).

They use a lot of interesting stuff, like FRP, lenses, etc.

</comment><comment><USER32> Artsy has a bunch of Open Source applications that are interesting to check out, especially for those interested in mobile apps [https://github.com/artsy](https://github.com/artsy)

</comment><comment><USER33> I find Apache Spark to be exceptionnaly well written and easy to read. (in Scala). [https://github.com/apache/spark](https://github.com/apache/spark)

</comment><comment><USER34> Photoshop: [http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/adobe-photoshop- source-...](http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/adobe-photoshop-source-code/) Not open source but one of the most commercially successful and one of the best architected. Original source code now available via Computer History Museum.

</comment><comment><USER35> Airbnb Superset. It's not mature yet, but it's enterprisey enough and the code is clean.

</comment><comment><USER36> If libraries count, Google Guava has some of the most impressive code quality I've ever seen

</comment><comment><USER37> PostgreSQL and Apache HTTP server.

</comment><comment><USER38> WooCommerce?

</comment><comment><USER39> I would say:

Gitlab

</comment><comment><USER40> postgresql?

</comment><comment><USER41> Has anyone mentioned SQLite?

</comment><comment><USER42> Shameless plug, but Bahmni and the Go CD open source projects.

</comment><comment><USER43> MySQL:

"On January 16, 2008, MySQL AB announced that it had agreed to be acquired by Sun Microsystems for approximately $1 billion"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MySQL_AB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MySQL_AB)

Edit: sorry, missed the question entirely. I thought OP said "open-source businesses worth studying"</comment>


Japan Just Landed a Spacecraft on an Asteroid, and the Photos Are Nuts - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencealert.com/japan-just-landed-its-spacecraft-on-an-asteroid-and-the-photos-are-nuts <comment><USER2> cool</comment>


Wake – A Modern Programming Language - <AUTHOR> http://www.wakelang.com/index.html <comment><USER2> The Hello.wk is missing an opening brace!</comment>