Nature rejects double-blind peer review - how corrupt is academia? - <AUTHOR> http://science-community.sciam.com/blog-entry/Sciam-Observations/Nature-Editors-Reject-Peer-Review/300009482 <comment><USER2> I've reviewed a bunch of submissions to ACM Transactions on Networking, all they were all double-blind.

Usenix, on the other hand, is is "single-blind" (if you want to dignify this with a name).

It makes a huge difference. Forget about gender bias. The real problem is bias against newcomers. I was reluctant to write anything negative about well-known researchers. When you're doing a bunch of these, you don't have a whole hell of a lot of time to track down cites and evaluate experimental results. So your default is going to be, people who could kick your ass in your field are getting good reviews.

<comment><USER3> The trouble with double blind is that in many disciplines the number of people publishing is quite small, and then when you get into sub disciplines you get a very small number. If you've shopped a paper around at conferences and workshops before submitting it, it can be fairly unlikely that a person qualified to review the manuscript doesn't know who wrote a paper or couldn't find out with a phone call.

So effectively you get single blind (if that, it is often pretty obvious who your referee was if you know the writing style or the referee keeps citing papers by the same author) . However, even though it often doesn't work very well in practice, not doing it doesn't work with perfect certainty.

<comment><USER2> Bear in mind that established researchers aren't going to take a "superficial No" for an answer, and maybe the reason pubs stay single-blind is that double- blind would invite havoc; Raj Jain would be getting articles turned down, and everything would bog down in appeals.

Oh, wait. No he wouldn't. ACM SIGCOMM is double-blind. Yeah, I have no idea why everything doesn't work that way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The title of this post is excessively melodramatic.

It isn't necessarily "corrupt" to reject double-blind peer review. In my experience, most scientists who are qualified to review a paper will be able to infer the name of the researcher behind it, based solely on the content.

This is particularly true in areas where software packages or novel algorithms come into play, because people tend to name their ideas for maximum recognition. It's silly to hide the name of the researcher when the paper refers to their pet algorithm a dozen times by name.

<comment><USER5> I agree that the post head is melodramatic. But I think perhaps you missed something in the article. As it pointed out, the kind of "easy guesses" you mention are far less likely to occur in broad fields, even if they are more likely in narrower fields. Besides, so long as the default "fail" state in a double-blind review is at least _no worse than_ the current "succeed" state of single-blind, I don't see why there would be an objection.

I confess that I've done a reasonable amount of graduate work, and I work at a well-known college (staff, not faculty), and I was genuinely surprised to learn that most reviews aren't double-blind. It seems to me to make more sense as the default option.

But again, I don't disagree that the submitter is hyping the situation with that head. The situation isn't necessarily "corrupt" -- but I can understand the inclination to interpret it that way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Interesting title. You indict the entire community of scientific researchers based on a single decision made by a single journal. Is your decision making process any better than theirs?

<comment><AUTHOR> Touché, I'm sure there are many researchers who work hard and mean well.

But this isn't to say that the system of publication is perfect. Why don't we innovate more in how we organize research on a macro level?

<comment><USER7> That's not what he said. There's a world from "the publication system could be improved" to suggesting that academia is corrupt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Similarly, an interesting review of a book critical of the status-quo in academia (The Access Principle, by John Willinsky):

<http://www.scottaaronson.com/writings/journal.html>

It seems that journals (and textbook publishers) give the authors of intellectual works prestige and bragging rights in return for billions of dollars worth of intellectual property. The more valuable the intellectual property you give up, the more bragging rights you get. The entire industry reminds me of Tom Sawyer's whitewashing trick:

 _Tom said to himself that it was not such a hollow world, after all. He had discovered a great law of human action, without knowing it – namely, that in order to make a man or a boy covet a thing, it is only necessary to make the thing difficult to attain._ <http://www.pbs.org/marktwain/learnmore/writings_tom.html>

Or is there something I not getting?

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm concerned that the way we fund and review science has some big problems. I don't want to get into a 30,000 word essay here, but some sciences are starting to sound like echo-chambers where there is a narrative and research is supposed to support that narrative. Double-blind peer reviews should help with that, or at least try to help. But I remain skeptical that anything serious is going to be done until science completes politicizing itself somewhere in the next 2-3 decades.

<comment><USER5> Nice observation..and the situation is, I think, exacerbated by the often- cited "publish or perish" nature of things. I strongly suspect that this increases the tendency to adhere to the narrative, making it even more self- reinforcing.

Dangerous.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> There are many ways in which academia is non-transparent, but I don't think one journal rejecting double-blind reviewing is a major one. In the areas of computing in which I work not only can I guess who's written a paper (I would estimate at least 75% of the time off the top of my head, and with a little help from Google I imagine I could get well over 90%), but I can often guess who's written a review of my papers (perhaps 10-20% of the time). Computing might be an odd example - it's all I know. But I suspect that even most "broad" subjects end up breaking down into sub-areas where the participants tend to know each other pretty well.

Double-blind seems to me to be an attempt to try and cover up the much deeper flaws of "peer review". Peer review doesn't in practice mean that a peer- reviewed article is 100% correct, and that legions of scientists have honed every sentence. It means it got past the prejudices of a few reviewers, and (unless the reviewer is unusually committed) means that it didn't contain anything that screamed "obviously wrong" on a quick read through. When I get a genuinely good review (in particular if it finds a flaw in my work), I find it immensely useful, but these are sadly in the minority. IMHO the greatest reason why new-comers to the field find it hard to get papers accepted is because their ideas have a higher chance of grating against those held dear by the established people who act as reviewers; this is such a fundamental flaw in the system that fiddling with double-blind barely even counts as fiddling at the edges.

Given all this, it greatly amuses me when in North America to see products advertised as being based on peer reviewed science.

</comment><comment><USER10> The idea of double blind review goes against the recent (almost as old as the internet actually) trend of posting everything online long before publication.

</comment><comment><USER11> Joao Magueijo has an interesting look into this problem (specifically referring to Nature, too) in his book _Faster than the Speed of Light._ I read it when I was studying physics and it really intrigued me to see how difficult it is to challenge the status quo in a science that is defined by its fundamental revolutions.

</comment><comment><USER12> Not very.</comment>


Laid-Off Americans, Required to Zip Lips on Way Out, Grow Bolder - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/us/laid-off-americans-required-to-zip-lips-on-way-out-grow-bolder.html <comment><USER2> As a former H1-B worker myself (please put down the pitch-forks :)), I can tell you that regular companies aren't hiring H1-Bs to replace you directly. Instead they contract swarms of us through companies like WiPro and other body shops. This, along with the inability to seek a more fitting job on your own regardless of skill level is the main problem I see. You're essentially shackled to these body shops. You can't go home because of their BS employee agreements that force you to pay thousands if you leave before a certain time, you can't ask for higher salary or healthcare benefits, you don't get to choose where you work so it may be Texas today, WA tomorrow, Alabama next week so forget having a family life, you're wife can't work if you bring her and kids with you so you have to just follow along to their whims regardless. It is pretty much human trafficking once you get here. I can tell most folks here are American, they have no idea how messed up the H1-B system is.

<comment><USER3> Your perspective is the one missing from this debate.

I don't have a problem with immigration -- my grandparents were all immigrants. I have a problem with this three-tier system of greencards, guest visas and systematic import of undocumented workers.

These leech companies are farming exploited quasi-immigrant labor while screwing up the labor market for everyone else.

You should be able to come to this country like my ancestors did -- pass a physical and get a green card. An Indian technology worker shouldn't be separated from his kids, a Chinese restaurant waiter shouldn't be an indentured slave, and Americans of all backgrounds shouldn't have their salaries kneecapped by thousands of workers with no rights.

<comment><USER4> >>You should be able to come to this country like my ancestors did -- pass a physical and get a green card... Americans of all backgrounds shouldn't have their salaries kneecapped by thousands of workers with no rights.

If anyone could come into the US by simply passing a physical exam, salaries would be impacted much more drastically, this time by the sheer increase in the labor supply.

<comment><USER5> In the 20th century the total population of employable humans doubled in roughly a decade. That is, when women were allowed to enter the workforce in a real capacity.

We adjusted and the economy grew.

Concerns like yours were the same concerns raised by Americans regarding Asians a little over a century ago, leading to our closed borders. These fears were unfounded.

America is still succeeding based on the momentum of our former liberal open border policy and in another century or so I'm sure we'll regret having tightened immigration as much as we have.

It's crazy that if you're born here by random chance you get incredible perks in life, but if you want to come here and earn those perks you're pretty much screwed unless you've already proven success in your current country.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Listen, there's no point claiming the H1 situation isn't a rampant clusterfuck. Actual skilled laborers lie in limbo while busloads of cheap, disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited and depress domestic wages. It's a full on disaster.

If you have to have temporary worker visas, fine. But don't tie them to a company. If there's a legitimate need, and they're legitimately skilled, they'll find work, and they'll more than likely find work that pays comparably to a native worker (or they'll get poached, because good help is always hard to find).

<comment><USER7> > disposable foreign workers are brought over to get exploited

"exploited" is a matter of perspective. To an onlooker who has lived their whole life in a first world country, seeing people work for $x - (less- significantlyLess) [where $x is what is "typical" for the job] can be seen as bad/wrong/sad etc...

I have spent time working in very poor parts of Mexico and Manila. Crime is rampant, I feared for my life at times. Polution/open sewage made my eyes burn. By the end of my job there (helping doing on site server data migration for a financial institution) I was willing to pay/do anything to get out.

We take many things for granted that foreign workers might consider "Perks of the job". $1 has far more buying power in Manila than a place like the Bay area, but I would live in the Bay over Manila, essentially taking a wage cut.

This does not condone the wage discrepancy btwn foreign/domestic workers, but offers a potential explanation why a person would happily take an apparent "pay cut", and even be better off.

<comment><USER8> I am an immigrant living in the united states. I still can't believe my luck that I get to live in this paradise on earth called USA. I also feel guilty that got this incredible opportunity while much of my extended family and friends rot in third world hell holes waiting for their lives to be over quickly so they can be put out of their misery.

One of my uncle works as day laborer in dubai. He works 14 hr days of hard labor in extreme heat and lives in a some shanty where he has to share a bathroom( hole in the ground) with 14-20 other people. His passport got confiscated by his "owners" as soon as he landed there and was put under some sort of draconian "contract" where they get to work him to death, work place deaths are extremely common and no one cares if its an immigrant. In native's eyes they are basically slaves with no rights. You can see videos online where the 'owners' beat the shit out of them for real or imagined slights. I went to a restaurant once in Dubai with my uncle, all the immigrants were separated out into a different room with no air conditioning and that is where immigrants were supposed to sit you could _never_ eat with locals. I've also heard of many second-hand stories where women who go there to be be domestic help get sexually and physically abused for years. And shocking part is that he does all this voluntarily for the most part even though he never gets to see his family and kids and gets to have sex only when he goes back every 4-5 yrs. We had houses on the our street referred to as 'dubai houses' meaning houses build with money made in dubai, you can feel the eerie sadness when you look at a house. I can go on forever but I think you get the idea.

Seeing yourself as an individual and as a human being is privilege inaccessible to most people in countries like mine. Even Our philosophical frameworks and belief systems are designed to explain away and make sense of unbearable misery of life with concepts like karma and preordination.

<comment><USER9> > I also feel guilty that got this incredible opportunity while much of my > extended family and friends _rot in third world hell holes waiting for their > lives to be over quickly so they can be put out of their misery_

Goodness - I know it's probably hyperbole, but what kind of fucked-up country do you come from?

<comment><USER10> India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are common labor pools that many Mid East nations draw upon for physical laborers. It isn't just Dubai, though they are among the most egregious; you'll see these arrangements in nations like Saudi Arabia as well, even though it is not nearly as well-publicized.

<comment><USER11> It's not just middle eastern countries.

Many developed countries in Asia (eg Singapore) use foreign labor for jobs that "no Singaporean would do". This includes jobs like construction.

Unlike the U.S., these foreign workers are truly 2nd class citizens. Often passports are confiscated, and the idea that they'd ever start a life or family in their host country is completely off the table.

It is official policy that they can be paid less than local workers for the same job, and have far fewer legal protections.

I don't think it's black and white though. Many of these foreign workers would be worse off in their home country.

It still rubs me the wrong way. For all its flaws, I still like the U.S. System better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This causes some pretty strong mixed feelings for me. On the one hand, foreign workers are already disadvantaged compared with domestic workers and H1-B caps are absurdly low. I keep failing to see why we are all supposed to open world markets to the flow of every sort of capital and goods _except_ labor, or why someone deserves a job for being born American, rather than Indian (Note that I feel the same way when Americans are disadvantaged elsewhere for similar reasons[1]). On the other hand, a clause requiring that you never say something bad about your employer nor discuss the situation under which you were laid off seems not only abusive, but repugnantly so. In a country that constitutionally enshrines free speech, the ability to sign away for money your right to complain publicly about a person or organization seems particularly dangerous, and the act of asking someone to do so seems truly vile.

[1] [https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4#.466usni...](https://medium.com/@rachelnabors/wtfuk-73009d5623b4#.466usnivl)

<comment><USER13> These Carly Fiorina-style arguments that no one has a special right to a job are ignoring a lot of context. In a world with even handed regulation and no borders, that could make sense. But that is not the world we live in. The current situation is not that trade is completely deregulated and labor is tied up in red tape. What is really happening is that there is a complex surface area of varying degrees of regulation and deregulation that in most cases benefits an elite class at the expense of others. Companies in America take advantage of rights to purchase land, subsidies, government contracts, military protection, tax advantages, tariffs, etc, all funded by American tax payers. Why wouldn't it be fair for Americans to have an advantage in the American market place? I actually agree that in an ideal world nations and borders wouldnt exist. But as long as the majority see benefit in their existence and they are being propped up by the powers that be, why would you kick the legs out from any small advantage you have from being a citizen of one?

<comment><USER14> Said in another way, capital is fungible but labor is not. This means capital can flow readily to the lowest cost suppliers and workers but workers cannot flow readily to higher paying employers.

This leads to a mismatch where, temporarily, employers can capture higher- skilled workers at lower costs.

Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first amendment rights?

<comment><USER15> > Another comment, how are anti-disparagement clauses not a violation of first > amendment rights?

This is a common misunderstanding of the first amendment. It's a short amendment, shorter than your comment, so you might as well just read the amendment.

<comment><USER14> Ah thanks for the advice :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> > _Now some of the workers who were displaced are starting to speak out, > despite severance agreements prohibiting them from criticizing their former > employers._

You can easily reveal the facts it in a totally non-critical way.

 _At ABC Data, workers were encouraged to collaborate with management to come up with creative solutions to streamline processes and save costs. When I realized that ABC could save money by replacing me with an equally capable, yet much cheaper worker visiting the country on a temporary work permit, I immediately pitched this idea at the next big cross-departmental meeting. There was much resistance among management. They objected on the basis of the unique knowledge and skills that I bring to the team, and how we all "go way back" to the startup days. In the end they saw it my way and agreed to relocate my posterior to that outdoor concrete fixture which separates the road from the sidewalk or lawn. I was unfortunately not able to talk them out of the egregiously generous severance package, though even with that expenditure, ABC ends up ahead. ABC is a great company to invest in with terrific fundamentals and future prospects, and is led by a highly ethical team whose decisions are beyond reproach._

<comment><USER17> IANAL but suspect disparagement is defined in such a way that a corporation's attorneys could prove this type of comment caused harm to the company, and thus meets the definition.

<comment><USER18> Yes, it turns out judges are not robots who apply law like it is some kind of program. They are capable of reading between the lines.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I find it interesting the amount of sudden vitriol by some of the formerly "free market" supporters that thought that the terrible job market for non- STEM majors would never, ever hit the technology industry. Those that decry artistry and creative industry jobs as beneath them and their money, those that felt working class people were just too lazy to find "good" jobs, and generally feeling apathy if not schadenfreude for those suffering from the corporate recovery of 2010-present.

Those same free marketers also agreed with the destruction of unions and protections like minimum wage. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, look at the comments. "H1-Bs are depressing prices" have replaced "why should I pay for music and movies" and "any industry that relies on ads should die".

Well, now with the tables turned, why should working class Americans and artists and content creators give one shit that the technology industry is suffering from "depressed salaries". Suffer with the rest of America.

<comment><USER20> I agree with you, actually; you can't have your cake and eat it, too. I believe employees in every field should be looking out for themselves. Signing a non-disparagement agreement is ridiculous. The company needs you to train the replacement, so make them pay through the nose. If they just say, get out, don't let the door hit you etc. -- fine. Move on. Don't dig your own grave then lie down in it.

People need to keep their resume up to date, keep testing the market, and be ready to move on if a superior opportunity arises, or if they become aware of an H1B replacement scheme in their group. That's the only real way to stop these practices; make the employers aware that people can and will walk if not treated right.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Former H1-B Worker as well. I was sponsored by Zynga Inc and Moz. Finally got my green card recently. As other people have pointed out above, I believe the problem relies on who is sponsoring these candidates. The following list speaks by itself:

1 Infosys: 23,816 2 Tata Consultancy Services 14,096 3 Wipro 8,365 4 IBM 7,944 5 Deloitte Consulting 7,016

Google, Facebook, Amazon and even Tesla or Palantir should be in the top spots. Setting a minimum wage to $100,000 would filter most of the sweat show applications out.

<comment><USER22> But it would also filter out most of the people outside of the Bay Area, New York and Chicago. In Missouri, for instance you aren't paying 100K to someone that isn't pretty darned senior: 65-70K is a competitive salary right out of school around here. So a recent foreign graduate would have to move to the bay.

We also have to understand that consulting companies are pretty great options when you want to get a green card (although not necessarily the big ones): If you are a consultant, and you work for a company doing layoffs, your consulting firm won't drop you like a rock, and might be interested in getting you another gig. If the same thing happens to you when you are working directly for a company, you have a much smaller clock before you should leave the country. When a Green Card wait can be 10 years, the chances you'll work for a company that has a few rounds of layoffs are very high.

<comment><USER21> That's a good point. It would obviously need to be a more complicated system. I think it would be good to prioritize companies like Google, Facebook and the likes but good, honest consulting companies shouldn't be excluded. Factors like innovation, skill scarcity and wage/cost of living can be weighed in.

That happened to me. I actually was at Zynga when they closed studios and I needed to start my green card application from scratch.

<comment><USER23> It doesn't need to be complicated. Just a rule that the employee must be paid a minimum of the median average wage of any similar domestic employees in the company, or the market average if there aren't any.

<comment><USER21> I hear you. Although, I believe that's one of the loopholes that companies like Infosys exploits. They pay just above market average and they have a really high number of H1B employees, bordering on the limit. Also, market average fluctuates a lot between regions so it can be circumvented as well. Hard problem....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I am not surprised that companies that are broken enough to do the outsourcing in the first place are also often broken enough to have this term in severance agreements. But it really should not be standard.

<comment><USER25> It's standard for lots of things.

I had to sign such an agreement to stay through an acquisition.

<comment><USER24> The point is that it should not be.

<comment><USER25> I agree, I was merely sharing my experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Worth noting the headlines of the 'related coverage':

Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers With Immigrants JAN 25, 2016;

Large Companies Game H-1B Visa Program, Costing the U.S. Jobs NOV 10, 2015;

Toys 'R' Us Brings Temporary Foreign Workers to U.S. to Move Jobs Overseas SEP 29, 2015;

Pink Slips at Disney. But First, Training Foreign Replacements. JUN 3, 2015

<comment><USER27> The way I read it, the anti-H1B movement and awareness is gaining steam. It would be interesting the stance Hillary/Trump takes next year after being sworn in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> It's always amazing that the H-1Bs who have these rare skills that are unavailable in US citizens nonetheless always seem to require training by the native workers they are replacing.

</comment><comment><USER29> At this point, with both Corporate abuses from American corporations and the H1-B holding companies along with the frequency with which we've seen the more expensive American work replaced with a much cheaper "guest" worker, I believe we need to ask ourselves, do we not have enough surplus American workers that are unemployed such that the H1-B program might not be necessary for a year or two until we've managed to get the unemployed American workers back to work?

<comment><USER30> One of the best developers I've ever worked with is here on an H1B. He's better than 95% of all the US Software Engineers I've ever worked with. He runs an open source project in his spare time and gives talks to educate the community. He's the kind of person the visa is for and he is paid appropriately for a senior engineer (not a cheap import).

The problem is the mostly Indian outsourcing companies. They ballot-stuff the H1B process every year. I talked to an Indian engineer in the US on J1. He said these three companies come to every Indian University and indiscriminately "hire" every single graduate to sign up for H1B, regardless of skill, need, or ability. Then if they "win" they get a to come to the USA, so of course most take the offer. It is implicitly understood that they will work for low wages and in difficult conditions but the goal is not to ask questions or rock the boat and wait until they get a green card.

I don't blame the workers but it is clearly an abuse of the system; Infosys isn't hiring India's brightest engineers to import as contractors. They're grabbing as many people with a pulse as possible to ballot-stuff H1B applications.

That could be solved by restricting applications to X per applicant, including all affiliated companies and subcontractors.

The other H1B scam is that you only have to pay a software engineer around $60-$70k to qualify as "highly paid". I'm not sure what the exact trick in the rules is but the consulting companies can and do pay well below market rates for engineers and it's perfectly legal.

<comment><USER31> That low salary figure must be based off of homing them on some non- SF/Seattle/Austin/NYC city. There are a lot of places in the US where making 60-70k individually puts you into the top 5-10% of the populace.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Couple of things about H1B: 1. While H1B workers are cheaper, they are also pretty much stuck with their employer. Not 100% but much less mobility than citizen. Sorry, this reeks just a wee bit of indentured servitude. 2. If you take Corp. Execs at their word, and that rising H1B caps is good for country, then would be good for a journalist to probe: what about a 10M worker cap? Or 1.5 billion worker cap? That would make america even stronger, no?

</comment><comment><USER33> In Canada Temporary Foreign Worker (TFW) program was changed. It was getting to the point where entire industries changed overnight out with long-time employees and in with near slave wage "TFWs" (many people just say refer to the people as TFWs).

It got so bad it became a huge political hot potato and the law was changed resulting in many TFWs disappearing as fast as they arrived.

The law here was similar to the TFW laws in the US and it was abused the same way. The law was meant as a way businesses could get help by hiring cheaper labour if they couldn't find local workers. But of course hiring someone at $5/hour versus $11/hour is strong motivation for a business to cheat.

This was every industry too each had its own preferred ethnicity mining (Chinese), fast food (Filipino), IT (India), agriculture (Central American). It's only now changing back to local people born in Canada.

I don't have any ill will against the TFW workers it's the businesses who are the ones who ruined the purpose of the TFW law and now have to suffer for it.

<comment><USER34> $5/hour sounds like they were violating minimum wage law which is now about $11/hour. Surely that itself is the problem, not whether the workers were foreign or local, or how much above minimum wage they were paid.

<comment><USER33> No Canadian citizen would ever be paid less than minimum wage it was only the TFW who could be paid that.

I'm not sure of the exact wage but I know it was less than the minimum wage which is roughly $11/hour, although each province sets its own rate.

There were also problems of TFWs being house in apartments that the business owner owned and took wages for rent. Often having a dozens of people in a small apartment.

Other reports of passports being confiscated and return tickets home revoked. It's an embarrassment and thankfully the previous right wing government has been turfed.

I think the law now states TFW get the same pay and only to fill labour shortages since the program was meant to fix a labour shortage and nothing to do with wages.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I'm not sure I get this - are the workers coming in to replace them actually in the USA physically? Are they staying in the USA physically?

I mean is this offshoring / outsourcing or is it replacing with cheaper workers?

Why can't the existing employees compete for the jobs? I mean WIPRO must have going through some pretty big pre sales workups, so who else was competing?

I think what I mean is that doing this in secret implies that no one doing the actual job was ever consulted about the viability of outsourcing / replacing them / so you never get a real understanding of the costs or opportunities for improvement (essentially automating a bad process)

In summary - any company that does this cheap shot is usually one that is going to get its ass handed to it by a better more automated competitor.

<comment><USER25> Abbott contracted with Wipro, who appears to be performing the work locally, though Wipro claims only 20% h1b labor.

       Abbott tried to reduce the role of foreigners in the layoffs. Only about 20
       percent of the workers brought in by Wipro would be foreigners on H-1B
       visas, Mr. Stoffel said, while the rest would be American workers.

<comment><USER36> I thought the idea was 0% H-1B labor? You can't replace an American job with H-1B?

The requirements seem very stringent in writing but apparently utterly useless and ineffective in practice, or clearly both executives for Abott and Wipro would be facing criminal prosecution. You should not be able to circumvent the restrictions by a single layer of contract work.

<comment><USER29> >> You can't replace an American job with H-1B?

The goal of the system is to use the guest worker program to augment your current workers with talent that you are unable to find and staff here in the US. The requirement is _not_ at 40 - 60% of the cost you pay your US employees, but in skills that you cannot find or fill with US domestic workers.

<comment><USER37> These "scarce" skills and requirements are trivially gamed on a regular basis. Large numbers of positions that are eventually filled by H-1Bs don't, in truth, require skills and experience that you simply can't find domestically.

Sure, every once in a while you need a nuclear engineer or some other domain expert in a very, very narrow domain, and you may have a genuine shortage of talent. But for general-purpose IT and commodity development, these skill are not in short supply domestically if you're willing to pay market salaries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> As a Indian and worked in Indian body shops (but who never traveled aboard). My views on Indian-body shop immigrants :

In 2005, when I completed university masters degree. Our class has around 60 students, I'm pretty sure may be 5 or 6 of (1%) them are talented and good in computers. Most of us took IT job. We had chances to immigrate to other as early as 2007 through Indian body shops like Wipro, Infy, Tata, CTS etc.

In 2016, now most of them (60%) of them working in aboard. May be 40% in USA and 20% EU/ROW. How did almost 59% of these not-so talented friends landed in other countries? Did they gained sound knowledge in those 48 months or later. I really _really_ doubt that. Its because we are low-cost workers and got close to Indian IT management. Typical Indian IT managers are ass __*. They want boot-lickers not skilled developers. So its easy for unskilled people to land in other countries in the name of skilled-person. I know few guys who worked in non-IT companies (later created fake IT experiences) joined these body shops and now living in US.

I assume almost 80-90% IT Indians in US are helping American companies simply because he/she is low-cost worker. Its not like US companies cant find local talent to fill these roles, but they want low-cost solution.

If you got laid-off due to low-cost workers, please remember, its the US company & IT Body-shop bosses & stock-holders financially benefited a lot from these lay-offs not necessarily the worker who replaced you or the poor- outsourced IT slaves.

one simple solution : Please tighten the visa-interview process, make it more like real IT company interview (ask about data-structures and algorithms etc). This will ensure immigration rates from body-shops drop from 60%(from my numbers above) to 5% max.

\---

My personal experience with Indian & US/foreign freelancers greatly differ. Even though US/foreign freelancers are costly (1USD:66 INR), I find them worthy. They go-out and put extra-effort to finish the task. With Indian freelancers, they just want to finish the task quickly and get the paid. I find it amusing that US companies hire us for of lack-of talents there :)

</comment><comment><USER32> "Marco Peña was among about 150 technology workers who were laid off....." Going on a limb but guessing Mr.Peña might be of hispanic origin. Most talk about Trump has been tone, but little of substance. Sizzle vs steak, and all. My hunch is that most of Pundits&Pols class focus too much on tone and too little on what Trump would actually likely do. And that there are many Mr.Peña's for whom, while the would prefer nicer words coming out of TV set, are more concerned with what their wallets are saying. And that while Trump might take us to uncertain unknown, Clinton is doubling down on a crappy known.

</comment><comment><USER20> _So, after thirteen years of my loyal and dedicated service, you 're offering me $10,400 severance, six weeks notice (during which I must train my H1B half- price replacement), if and only if I sign a non-disparagement agreement? And otherwise, I'm out on my butt tomorrow?_

 _No. You 're going to give me one year's salary with benefits (after all, Lester Burnham got away with it in "American Beauty"). You're also going to pay me DOUBLE during the period that I am training the half price indentured servant who you imagine is going to replace me. Mind you, he'll never replace my previous loyalty and dedication; that's not something you can train into someone in six weeks... or ever. You have to earn loyalty, a lesson you'll discover over the next few months as you screw your employees._

 _Also, you will sign a mutual non-disparagement agreement; I say nothing bad about you, and you say nothing bad about me, and my lawyer says if you spread malicious and damaging gossip about me, it will cost me one million dollars in lost career potential, so that 's what you will owe me if you do so -- plus punitive damages._

 _And if you don 't give me what I want, I'm quitting as of 5pm today and will immediately write a book and blog about the stupidity of management here at Wrecked Lives Inc. In fact I've already reserved the domain names that will be appropriate for my upcoming tell-all. Lots of luck stopping me; I'll only tell the truth, and the First Amendment protects me. If you try to sue me, I'll sue you back, and the resulting publicity will make my book and my blog and my Youtube channel famous enough that I'll never need to work again. Your investors and commercial partners will also hear about it. So make my day._

I'm not saying most people would do this, or even if they did, that they would get away with it, but it's how a person in that situation _ought to_ respond. Granted, we in the U.S. have at-will employment, granted it's a free market, and sometimes the smartest move is to simply move on and put this behind you. But we're also human beings with emotions, loyalties, and a sense of betrayal, and when a management team tries to pull the H1b-swap-and-gag on the employees, they have to recognize the price.

</comment><comment><USER39> I've never even had the option to sign a no disparagement clause for a settlement like that. I've had to support my family with what I already had whether I liked it or not. So what they did is shitty, but I have a hard time feeling bad for the 1% who complain that they have the option of getting more money by signing away their rights if they so choose.

</comment><comment><USER40> Immigration for "skilled" workers is flawed in US Please look at other countries ( point based system ) and for the love of sanity just adopt best practices ... flaws: 1) Skilled worker immigration should be based on "skills" (country of origin is incorrect: Indian and Chinese immigrants suffer, US workforce also suffers) 2) Immigration should be tied to individuals, influence from employer has conflict of interest. (employer wants to make money even if it comes at the cost of employees ability to immigrate) 3) Immigration as whole should be based on what new individuals bring to the table (skills, age when joining workforce, true intent and ability to adopt new country)

Point 3 is complex and involves true value for US or country of adoption. ____* Immigration overall is not as complex or difficult as most politicians publicize it, it has become far more political than it needs to be, thank you President Obama. __ __ _

</comment><comment><USER41> Another commenter alluded to it, but I find both the article and the discussion miss what is really going on. It seems like a lot of firms are basically outsourcing their IT workforce; something that has been going on for a long time now.

For most businesses, IT is a cost center, and if that cost can be minimized, they will do so, full stop. What the articles doesn't go into detail is whether those workers that are being trained will continue to work in the US, or whether they are in the US temporarily to understand the IT infrastructure and processes. It seems to me that the latter is the case here. Again, outsourcing has been going on for the longest time, and it really confounds me how many times the same issue will be brought up.

</comment><comment><USER42> There is a simple solution, particularly in the context of congressional or other government investigations: subpoena them. Nondisparagement clauses don't & can't cover compelled testimony.

</comment><comment><USER43> It's just businesses abusing the system. We need more legislation in place to keep businesses from Harmon Americans and shooting themselves in the foot long term. American workers who support unfeddered capitalism always end up wondering why they are starving when they supported tax cuts for the wealthy and big business while leaving no money to pay for the fallout of their disasterous decisions. Sometimes you get what you asked for.

<comment><USER44> H1-B isn't just abused to depress wages. Mediocre managers love it because docile H1-B body shop contractors are no threat to their careers. This leads to bad corporate IT quality and reduced competitiveness in US enterprises. You can even get them to pantomime the Agile thing and look all progressive and shit, even though those H1-Bs will never rock the boat.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> A lot of uproar, but have you ever tried to teach a 60yo veteran working his paper trail to switch to python? The laid off personnel did not have the required skillset, and would be fired regardless of the source of replacement, H1B or local.

</comment><comment><USER46> Honest question: if a guy in India can do the same job as a guy in the US, but coming from a country with worse economy agrees to do it cheaper, why would I sympathize with the american guy in this situation?

Honestly, to me it seems like american working class have been really privileged compared to the world's population in 20th century, and globalization finally brings some equality — which might not be a good thing to american middle class, but is a great one for workers from China, India and all other 3rd world countries.

</comment><comment><USER47> These companies seem not to believe in the free market if they suppress the free exchange of information about their labor practices.

</comment><comment><USER48> Totally independently of other things, naming it "Required" sounds better than "took 10.000$ for zipping their lips"

</comment><comment><USER49> To promote Entrepreneurs/Local Jobs

1\. Impose tax on corporate revenues, not profits

2\. Regulate market capitalization of corporations

</comment><comment><USER50> Free market capitalism.

You can't have it both ways.

<comment><USER51> Then we should not have it at all.

<comment><USER52> Tickets to Venezuela are pretty cheap nowadays.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> So, is it time for a union yet?

</comment><comment><USER54> I have long been an open borders supporter, anyone that wants to come to the US (or any other nation) and make a life for themselves should be free to do so.

I am also 100% opposed to even the existence of the H1B visa program, this program is a modernized version of Indentured servitude that allows companies to take advantage of those employees by conditioning their immigration to their employment. These people are often coming from circumstances they do not want to return to, poverty, oppression, persecution, etc. So the threat of being fired and deported is a coercive force that employers use to exploit these workers.

I am fine with immigration, I am even fine if immigrant are willing to work for lower wages, provided that agreement is free from the threat of deportation...

</comment><comment><USER55> Sorry, I don't feel bad for any of these people. Even the poorest Americans have better material conditions than a lot of Indian workers. Why do you think the Indian workers are willing to work for less?

<comment><USER56> While US has quite better conditions, India is not some messed up rogue state. Many come here for a obvious reason, Money. The currency exchange rate is 1 : 66 for USD : INR. So even with PPP into consideration, that's huge and so they work for way less.

<comment><USER55> I was just using the extreme example of the comparison of low-skilled workers in the two countries. Even in the opposite extreme I have no particular sympathy, in my mind it's analogous to one American programmer losing her job to another American programmer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Most corrupt people on the Earth [http://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian- american...](http://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian-americans- from-usa/)

</comment><comment><USER57> > Two years later, his work with a local tech contracting company pays $45,000 > a year less than his Eversource salary. Many of his former co-workers are > also struggling, Mr. Diangelo said, but stay quiet to avoid provoking the > company.

So basically, the company wasn't making enough money to support the affluent pay of its workforce so it had to take drastic measures to stay afloat.

If you are suddenly making $45,000 a year less than you were... Perhaps you were getting paid above your true market value

</comment><comment><USER58> Why not ask the recruiter or company you are applying for if they are willing to sponsor or work with an H1B visa (pretend you are in that position) and move on if they say yes. It will be interesting to see how well these companies do when all they can hire are H1B workers. After all, they can only get so many of those visas, and there is only a 30% chance that the application will actually be approved. They do need a certain number of US workers to have a stable workforce. With that gone, all their projects will be at risk of failure. How much of this risk do you think they can keep up before they are forced to give up these H1B abuses? I say abuses because there are clearly qualified local candidates willing to work at the market rate, but they lie about the market rate and lie about not finding local candidates to hire their cheap labor. Ideally, they should have a Job ID assigned to all jobs where they are considering H1Bs and post the name, wage, and qualifications of the hired candidate if they hire an H1B candidate. That way, potential employees that were passed up can see who they were passed up for, and complain to the right people if they were unfairly skipped on for a cheaper employee with poorer qualifications just because they were cheaper or would be cheaper in the long run because they would never get a raise or benefits or unemployment or pay into social security and medicaid.

<comment><USER59> > After all, they can only get so many of those visas, and there is only a 30% > chance that the application will actually be approved.

Once an immigrant is granted an H-1B visa, they don't have to go through the lottery process again for the next 6 years. If within that 6 years they apply for a Green Card and reach a certain stage in the processing pipeline, they will get extensions any number of times past the 6 years too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> This is simple "they stole our jobs" rhetoric. It's just like taxi drivers with their "Uber stole our fares". If you can't compete, go to another market. If you're already overcharging, charge less. "Depressing local wages" is a good thing - it reduces the cost to society of getting productive things done.

The other argument about foreign workers being exploited is a clear sign of people pretending to care but really not caring. Sure there are some who were tricked into debt traps, but for most, they know what they're getting into and they know it's better than what they have back home. So they're making a step up in life. You want to kick them back down because you care about their welfare? What it means is you only care about people in America and once they leave, they lose their status as worthy human beings who deserve good working conditions.

I used to be a foreign laborer. I was paid minimum wage to do grunt work that locals didn't want. It was wonderful. The currency was worth more in my home country than where I was working. It helped me pay off my student loan. I would have hated to be forced out by someone trying to protect me from myself. My coworkers loved it too, they'd send money home to help their parents run their farms and pay off their own loans. They'd laugh at the lazy local workers who were mostly overweight and doing the same job more slowly.

<comment><USER60> No, it's not.

This is about companies only granting severance if you sign non-disparagement agreements.

<comment><USER34> Well yes, mainly. But the complaint of the laid-off workers was about immigrants taking their jobs.</comment></comment></comment>


Science = prediction - <AUTHOR> http://blog.vivekhaldar.com/post/32656288767/science-prediction

<comment><USER2> Great. Another article the presumes to analyze science, by someone who doesn't understand science.

Science is not about prediction (that's something that theories sometimes do, but it's not the essence). Science is the shaping of theories that agree with observations, then (if that is successful) generalizing the theories to areas not yet examined, then testing the general cases. _Science is the careful building of theories on a scaffolding of evidence._

If I drop an apple from a great height and watch its path to the ground, I might derive a theory about inverse square gravitational attraction. Then I might try to prove the general case by examining the orbits of moons around planets, planets around stars, stars around galactic centers, and the orbits of galaxies around their common centers of mass.

> In other words, you can't call your field a science until it gives you > predictive power over your world.

Perfect nonsense. Quantum theory is the single most successful physical theory we have, and one of its central tents is that things aren't predictable. We have field measurements that (a) confirm the unpredictability of nature and that (b) agree with the theory's claims, accurate to ten decimal places. It is an astonishing theory, it is deeply disturbing, and it is very well supported by evidence.

Science is about asserting theories, testing them, and carefully generalizing the survivors of the initial tests. And there are no failed experiments in science -- an experiment that conclusively falsifies a theory is just as valuable as one that supports a theory.

> I am pessimistic because the bulk of uncertainty in software development > comes from human complexity.

No, that's not the key issue. The key issue in computer science, that undermines perfect predictability, is the deep connection between the Turing halting problem and Gödel's incompleteness theorems. Because of the latter, the former is not merely unresolved, _it cannot be resolved, ever, in principle_. Human complexity doesn't enter into it, by which I mean a perfect programmer would not be able to write a perfect program.

If software was written by robots with an ideal grasp of logic, the result would still be buggy and unpredictable, and the more complex the software, the less predictable. This is not an accident, or a language design issue -- it arises because _software cannot be made perfectly predictable_ , and there will always be unexpected outcomes from nontrivial computer programs, period, full stop. And to think Alan Turing knew this 75 years ago.

To return to the thesis of the linked article, the fact that nontrivial software cannot ever be made predictable, undermines the basic claim that science is about prediction, and yet the fact that software cannot be made predictable is a perfectly valid, and very important, scientific result, one we all need to learn.</comment>


Ask HN: What is the best way to pass links between phone/desktop? - <AUTHOR> I normally email or SMS links to myself, but is there a better way? Ideally I would like to preserve the page location when I share the link. <comment><USER2> For desktop to phone pass I am using QR Code generator for browser. Just generate the QR Code using some extension and point phone camera at the code.

</comment><comment><USER3> Firefox Sync would probably be suitable.

[https://support.mozilla.org/en- US/products/firefox/sync](https://support.mozilla.org/en- US/products/firefox/sync)

</comment><comment><USER4> Google Keep or Apple Notes. Sending a message or email to myself feels really weird in a way that's difficult to describe.

<comment><USER5> Like talking to yourself?

<comment><USER4> I think it's more that I'm using the app/program/protocol in a way in which it wasn't meant to be used.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Create a whatsapp group and add one person, then inmediatly kick out that person from the group. Then you have a group for just yourself. Call it "links" group.

Use this group to paste links. On the desktop use [https://web.whatsapp.com/](https://web.whatsapp.com/) to access those links.

<comment><USER7> This can be replicated for Telegram, Facebook or any other IMs too.

<comment><USER8> On Telegram you don't even need to create a group, you can just use "Saved Messages".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> In Chrome's address bar you have the "send" icon (or whatever it's called).

</comment><comment><USER10> If you're on macOS and iOS, either iCloud tabs, or Universal Clipboard would work.

<comment><USER11> This is a good solution if you are willing to sign into the same iCloud account on both devices.

On my work machine, I don't use my personal iCloud account. I'm still looking for a good solution for this setup. I often create e.g., a Gmail draft to myself on one device then open it on the other, copy, and delete. But this is tedious.

Pushbullet [1] used to be good for this but I don't think it's actively maintained now.

[1]: [https://www.pushbullet.com/](https://www.pushbullet.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Chrome has the possibility to send links between devices. Click the address bar beside the bookmark icon and the "send this page" option comes up. Its very handy

</comment><comment><USER13> [https://www.pushbullet.com/](https://www.pushbullet.com/) far better than using google keep, whatsapp groups or email

</comment><comment><USER14> There should be a universal copy/paste tool across devices. Imagine how useful...

</comment><comment><USER15> Add links to Todoist on your phone and have it sync to your desktop Todoist client.

</comment><comment><USER16> Chrome > Menu > Recent Tabs

Pulls tabs from all devices you're signed into

</comment><comment><USER17> Take a look at Pushbullet.

</comment><comment><USER18> Drafts by Agile Tortoise for iOS and Mac. Syncs very well.

</comment><comment><USER19> KDEConnct will be interesting to keep your eye on.

</comment><comment><USER20> You can send a message to yourself on messenger. :)

</comment><comment><USER21> Chrome has a share to device option.

</comment><comment><USER22> Google Keep

</comment><comment><USER23> pastebin.com or similar

</comment><comment><USER24> I use Telegram messenger to share and save links between devices.</comment>


Ask HN: What are some (good) hacker movies? - <AUTHOR> One of my favorite movies is the 2004 film Primer which was written, directed, scored, and stars a mathematician and software engineer.  Aside from the obvious (gems like Wargames, King of Kong- stinkers like the Matrixes and Hackers) what other (good) tech films are there? <comment><USER2> Apollo 13 has some great hacker scenes. It has, in fact, my favorite hacker moment from any movie.

"We gotta find a way to make _this_ [holds up square peg] fit into the hole for _this_ [holds up round peg] using nothing but that [points to random assortment of crap that they know is on board].": <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNDuGuerpf8>

<comment><USER3> The square peg/round hole sequence is of course the embodiment of the hacker spirit (not an original thought of mine, but I can't seem to find the original URL at the moment).

Another space/hackish movie would be "The Dish" about the Australian engineers in charge of one the (of course) dishes used to communicate with Apollo 11. Cliffhanger scene: the dish goes out of alignment for some reason and they need to scramble to regain contact in time to televise the moon landing.

And of course there's always "The Right Stuff".

<comment><USER4> Q: How do you know if you're a hacker? A: If you get chills during that scene.

I did, but I didn't know what it meant at the time.

My dad on the other hand wouldn't stop talking about it during the drive home afterward. He was a mechanical engineer at West Point and it got him going on the laws of thermodynamics and the time he calculated the condensation point of a drop of water on a steel pipe and realized that engineering is no different from magic at a certain point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Okay, I'm insane, I know that. But I have this strange urge to nominate _The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai_ in this category. I'm not sure I can explain why. Perhaps it's just to be perverse. ;)

There's just something about the character that rings true. He's a famous superhero, but he doesn't wear a costume or come from another planet. He's a mad scientist, but he doesn't cackle or plot or soliloquize. He's an odd guy with a diverse collection of obsessive hobbies and an even more diverse collection of friends, who are world-class experts in their fields while also being strange and geeky people. And somehow these people aren't his minions or his sidekicks: They're _colleagues_. He and his band work on things that nobody on Earth has ever heard of, but they don't seem too excited about that -- there are no breathless gasps. It's just part of their usual routine.

There's something about this guy, his lab, and his team that reminds me of the _actual_ basement of the physics department at Cornell, and of the actual people who you might find wandering the hallways of such a place. A place where the pile of junk in the corner is actually the remains of a Nobel- winning experiment from 1967, and the guy who just asked you how to find the men's room is the Secretary of Energy.

<comment><USER6> I once walked past John Lithgow in Harvard Yard.

I was so surprised I blurted out "Dr. Lazardo!"

"Laugh while you can, monkey-boy," he replied, and kept walking.

<comment><USER7> that's awesome

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d682xV0n1YY>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> _The Prestige_ (competing magicians inventing new tricks, cameo by Nikola Tesla):

<http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/prestige>

 _Iron Man_ (fun movie where the main character is hacker/inventor):

<http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/ironman>

 _There Will Be Blood_ (not a hacker movie per se, but still kind of startup- relevant, it's about creation of the oil empire from scratch):

<http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/therewillbeblood>

 _Odyssey 5_ (TV series about a group of astronauts sent back in time to prevent destruction of Earth, AI plays a significant role):

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0318236/>

Few Japanese cyberpunk animated classics:

 _Ghost in the Shell 1 & 2_:

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113568/>

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0347246/>

 _Akira_ :

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094625/>

Bonus: if you liked Primer, you may like also _Timecrimes_ (even though it's not a hacker movie):

<http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/timecrimes>

<comment><USER9> Regarding Iron Man: It is hard for me to suspend my disbelief when movies feature world-shatteringly advanced artificial intelligence and yet pay no attention whatsoever to the obvious implications of such technology. Forget the silly flying suit!

<comment><AUTHOR> That was exactly what I took from the movie- not the suit or whatever was interesting but how great a user-agent setup he had!

<comment><USER10> I named my ubuntu box Jarvis that day, after seeing it twice. ;-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Fan of:

The headache inducing blue ribbon winner: Pi - <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0138704/>

The slightly corny but worthwhile: Sneakers - <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/>

<comment><USER12> Sneakers may be corny - but it's actually based on some serious math. Essentially one of the characters has developed a way to solve a prime factorization in what appears to be constant time (i.e. O(1)). Once you do that - well that's the end of basically all public key cryptography based on the RSA algorithm (pretty much everything in common use). Much more realistic than say, Hackers.

<comment><USER13> On the other hand, Hackers did take the time to name its characters after handles taken from 2600.

<comment><USER14> It also had Angelina Jolie.

It... motivate me to be a hacker.

And yet now that I am a hacker... I am no closer to Angelina, funny that.

<comment><USER10> When I was young, I thought mechanical engineering would be my ticket to the space race, but after seeing the movie hackers for the 1st time on the engineering floor in college, I thought hacking was COOOOL.

I know it sounds lame, but I have to think that that movie got me fantasizing about it.

So, later on when I was struggling with Statics and Dynamics my teacher recognized that I was really a hacker and not an engineer. He asked how I did all of that stuff on my calculator, I then showed him my serial cable mod for the TI-82, and the other software i had written to make his class easier, because S&D was so hard. He suggested I change majors.

I AM SO HAPPY I DID, and today I have a job where I get paid to design the OpenWeb, and work on side projects. Maybe one will break out.

I still think I owe the campy fantasy of hacking to the movie 'Hackers,' for letting me think i had a better chance of getting a girl via hacking. I guess today i am still hopeful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> My Caltech friend assured me that _Real Genius_ perfectly captured the spirit of Caltech. (It borrows a lot of legendary Caltech hacks.) It certainly is the best fictional depiction of grad school I've ever seen, though it's kind of confused about the distinction between undergrad and grad school. On the other hand, perhaps that's normal at Caltech as well.

<comment><USER15> It's supposed to be undergrad, which is like that at Caltech (and for that matter, many physics departments).

Real Genius is a terrific movie, and it leapt to mind as being definitive. :-)

<comment><USER16> But it can't beat "Young Einstein" in number of geniuses: Edison, Darwin, Marie Curie, Rutherford, Freud and Einstein himself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Antitrust: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218817/>

Pirates of Silicon Valley: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/>

<comment><USER18> I got a real kick out of watching Pirates of Silicon Valley.

<comment><USER19> I much prefer "Triumph of the Nerds."

<http://www.pbs.org/nerds/>

The real Gates, Jobs, etc. are far more compelling, interesting, and charismatic than actors trying to portray them.

<comment><USER20> Though Steve Jobs thought Noah Wyle was so good that he invited him to trick the audience at one of his keynotes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Slightly off topic, but a good hacker TV show is "Big Bang Theory" on Monday nights on ABC. It's about 4 physics PhD students at Cal Tech.

The best part is that they don't water down the physics at all. One guy got dumped by his girlfriend because of their differing opinions on string theory.

I just got the season 1 DVD and it's great.

<comment><USER8> They are not PhD students, more something like postdocs. The only one of them without PhD is a target of jokes because of this.

<comment><USER21> Yeah, you're right. I was just trying to summarize. Either way, still very rare for network TV.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> GATTACA might be worth adding to the list.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca>

<comment><USER23> Gattaca is an underrated classic. Andre Niccol's other movie The Truman Show is even better.

<comment><USER23> His other other movie, Lord of War, was also pretty good. It does involve entrepreneurship. The Terminal, his other other other movie, was ok, but no hacking. I haven't seen his other other other other movie, S1m0ne.

<comment><USER24> I've seen s1mOne; the basic premise is very hacker-y. A guy living in his house develops photo-realistic CG, telling no one, and delivers it to a movie producer and then dies. What should he do with it? His choice == the film.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I liked "a beauiful mind" about John Nash and game theory.

And "The Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires" is a must-see about how Microsoft, Apple, et al. started out.

<comment><USER11> Triumph of the Nerds is great. Hopefully Cringley will make a version for this decade about Web empires.

<comment><AUTHOR> He did make "Nerds 2.0" about the first web boom. Sadly, this has never been released on vhs/dvd.

<comment><USER25> It has been released on the Intertubes apparently: [http://www.torrentbox.com/torrent_details?id=29078&filel...](http://www.torrentbox.com/torrent_details?id=29078&filelist=1)

<comment><AUTHOR> Sadly I tried to download this a while ago and it turned out to be fake... its another (not-so-interesting) documentary on the internet.

<comment><USER25> This one seems to be the real deal, I'm downloading it now, and I saw Robert X. Cringely in the preview.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Not all are hacker movies per se, but these have great general geek appeal:

Existenz <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0120907/>

Cube <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0123755/>

The Nines <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0810988/>

The World's Fastest Indian <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0412080/>

October Sky <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0132477/>

Three Days of the Condor <http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0073802/>

<comment><USER27> +1 for Cube. Cube 2: Hypercube and Cube Zero, not so much.

<comment><USER26> Totally agreed. The others were dismal.

<comment><USER28> I actually refused to show the third to friends because it was so bad it actually ruined the first a little bit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Good movies about startups: "Tucker", "24 Hour Party People", and "Ghostbusters".

<comment><USER5> Wow, _Ghostbusters_ is a movie about a startup. It seems so obvious once it's pointed out, but it never occurred to me before.

<comment><USER2> It's also very much a product of the Reagan era: the bad guys are the scientists, academia and the EPA.

<comment><USER13> Uh, hello? Venkman: "Back off, man! We're scientists!"

Also, didn't they give props to a Dem mayor of NYC?

<comment><USER2> That's what he says, but they lack the skepticism of actual scientists. I love the movie - and the quote - but Venkman is clearly calling himself a scientist because it's convenient at the moment.

<comment><USER5> Wait, how do we know that Venkman isn't a legitimate scientist, again? Because he's insufficiently skeptical about ghosts? But in the universe of _Ghostbusters_ ghosts _physically exist_!

If anything, the part of _Ghostbusters_ that strains my credulity is that in their universe there seem to be scientists who _don't_ believe in ghosts. You'd think that the accumulated evidence would be pretty overwhelming by the 1980s!

<comment><USER29> IIRC, the spate of hauntings in the movie was brought on by the imminent return of Gozer the Gozerian (or by the same rare set of conditions that allowed Gozer to return).

By the sequel, the Ghostbusters had mostly closed up shop due to the collapse of the haunting bubble.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> At the other end of the hacker spectrum (the cry-yourself-to-sleep reality end not the fantasy end), there's Office Space.

<comment><USER31> I also enjoyed Mike Judge's other film "Idiocracy". It's not explicitly a hacker film, but it's a sci-fi story about an average guy in a world of idiots, so it verges on hacker territory. It also has some examples of hilariously bad human/computer interface design.

(And if you're into cry-yourself-to-sleep-reality movies, there's also Outsourced, a recent comedy about a call center manager who must train his replacements in India. I found it surprisingly enjoyable. Its primary themes are culture clash and figuring out what's important in life, so it shares similarities with Office Space and Gung Ho.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Okay, I'll say this much in defense of the _Matrices_ : (a) the first _Matrix_ movie is emphatically not a stinker; (b) I appreciated the second two a lot better after reading these links [1]:

[http://corporatemofo.com/media_and_mediocrity/the_matrix_rel...](http://corporatemofo.com/media_and_mediocrity/the_matrix_reloaded_the_corpor.html)

[http://web.archive.org/web/20071005000019/http://www.corpora...](http://web.archive.org/web/20071005000019/http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/031109matrix.htm)

I mean, I still don't think the sequels worked very well, particularly #3, but I admire the audacity of the experiment.

\---

[1] (Alas, the second link now appears to be Wayback Machine material. Essayists, defend your archives!)

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought about "Matrices" but decided that there was only one Matrix (in all senses of the word...)

<comment><USER5> What former physicist could resist? It's like trying to resist saying _boxen_ , only more so, because _matrices_ is an actual word.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> More sci-fi than pure tech, I just saw: "The man from earth", <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0756683/>

Highly recommended.

<comment><USER33> I've watched The Man From Earth about 30 times. Favorite movie of the past few years by a long shot.

Bixby also wrote a Star Trek TOS episode with basically the same story: [http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/video/video.php?cid=64...](http://www.cbs.com/classics/star_trek/video/video.php?cid=649548575&pid=ldOkx_DqxB1DMiFZVa6kp011elNkv6Ah&play=true)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> You already had the best (Primer) After that, in no particular order:

Sneakers. Brilliant film.

Hackers - I think it's old enough now to be allowed but it was really laughable at the time - in the kind of way swordfish will be almost respected 20 years from now.

Wargames is the Hackers of the early 80s.

Pirates of Silicon Valley is also worth a watch.

Three Days of the Condor is a fantastic film if you're even slightly old school.

The nines is one of those films you'll either get and love or won't - I loved it.

Battle Royale is an amazing film that happens to have some hacking in it.

2001 is the ultimate hacker film, even though there's not much that you could associate hacking with it. The way it's put together, the dedication to realism, the way the special effects were implemented a year before man went to the moon defines it as a hacker film for me, although YMMV.

</comment><comment><USER35> There was a sort of 'unofficial' 'hackers 2' with Skeet Ulrich playing Kevin ("My kung-fu better than you kung-fu!") Mitnick in Takedown (<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159784/>) - the story following the book of the same name by Tsutomu Shimonura. Also, I think they recently screened 'Wargames 2 : the dead code' (<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0865957/>) over here in the UK. Don't forget Tron! Ah.. just hearing the sounds of the video arcade at the beginning...

</comment><comment><USER36> I liked the King of Kong: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0923752/>.

Man on Wire is on my list of movies to watch: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155592/>

<comment><USER37> If you liked King of Kong, you might like Chasing Ghosts: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0479879/>

It has a different focus, but it's about a lot of the same guys (Billy Mitchell, Walter Day, Roy Schmidt), and is also really well done.

<comment><USER36> thanks! will check it out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> On the social engineering tip, I'd say "Catch Me If You Can" is a good watch. It's a little too hollywood, but there are some good bits.

</comment><comment><USER39> There's no computers in it, but Coppola's "The Conversation" is a classic - <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Conversation> \- it's about electronic surveillance. There's a great scene near the end that reminds me of debugging - the wikipedia article has a picture and descriptive caption of that scene:

"At the end of The Conversation, Gene Hackman, as paranoid audio surveillance expert Harry Caul, plays the saxophone in his apartment, which he took apart piece by piece trying to find a bug. The scene vividly illustrates Caul's complete emotional isolation by having him literally tear away practically every vestige of the material world that surrounds him, shattering the safety and security of his carefully-constructed womb."

<comment><USER40> I always thought Gene Hackman's character in "Enemy of the State" (opposite Will Smith) was Harry Caul 30 years later.

<comment><USER39> Never thought of that, but yeah. He must have brought some of the first role to the second role.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> On the documentary side of things (all of which are available free/legally online):

1\. "Code Rush", documentary about Netscape open sourcing Mozilla.

<http://www.viddler.com/explore/coderush/videos/1/>

2\. "Revolution OS" was a pretty interesting documentary on Linux and the free software movement.

[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409&...](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7707585592627775409&ei=xYF- ScDeJZPCqAOfkJizBA)

3\. "Freedom Downtime", a documentary about Kevin Mitnick. There's also "Track Down", but that's more of a fictional portrayal loosely based on him.

[http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6746139755329108302...](http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6746139755329108302&ei=fIF- SceYCKS2qAO52Py1BA)

</comment><comment><USER40> The Dish tells the story of the Australian downlink that provided communications support for the Apollo moon landing. True to life and truly funny picture of engineers collaborating on some hard problems against a deadline.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0205873/>

</comment><comment><USER42> The Dam Busters (1955 - <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046889/> ) is excellent. You can see real-world examples of the hacker problem-solving mindset right from the start of the movie and it continues on throughout.

(PC Warning: One of the main characters has an unfortunately named black dog, which I suspect is the reason this superb film is only rarely seen).

</comment><comment><USER23> E-Dreams: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0262021/> Startup.com: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0256408/>

<comment><USER43> A little more info - Traces the birth and failure of new media company govWorks.com

If you are or were part of a start-up company you will be entertained by this documentary. It makes your head spin to see some of the mistakes and money this company goes through. They hired literally hundreds of people for an idea that could now probably be run with a dozen people (most of them sales).

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> 23 (not the jim carrey one)

<http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0126765/>

if you've ever read the cuckoo's egg, 23 is sort of the other side of the story, following karl koch and the germans (though stoll was mostly tracking markus hess in the cuckoo's egg, not koch).

<comment><USER45> I've been looking for a version of this with English subtitles for a while now. Do you have any suggestions?

<comment><USER44> thepiratebay :(

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Swordfish; if nothing for the totally cool monitor setup he had at Gabriel's place.

Alien; the original- the next couple of movies in the series were okay but the first I think is a classic in form of technology and all that good stuff. If you watch it, it may seem a bit old-school for our time, but for their time that was pretty cool! Finding a solution to space travel at light-year speed? Come-on- that's awesome.

Stargate; another one for space travel, but overall it was kind of corny- I just liked how the Egyptians, or whoever, discovered a way to transport across galaxies.

Enemy of the State; cool NSA tech stuff.

Deja Vu; the ability to go back in time only four days earlier or less... I like their setup and how they explained the plausibility of the technology actually coming to fruition.

<comment><USER41> Swordfish did have a cool monitor setup, but he built a virus using some sort of graphical tool! I suppose that's a bit more exciting for most people than vi or something.

And, of course, there was the "break into this system in 60 seconds while I hold a gun to your head and some woman gives you a blowjob" scene. Hollywood...

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Waking Life. Not so much a 'hacker' movie per say, but a great film for anyone who is interested in some heavy thinking and interesting cinematography.

<comment><USER44> i always remember the bit about trying to flip light switches in a dream to determine whether you're really dreaming or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Primer - Ultra low budget film about a couple of engineers who accidentally invent a time machine in their garage while working on a startup.

Blow - Not really a hacker movie, but it's rags-to-riches-to-rags storyline should be interesting to a lot of entrepreneurs.

Day of the Jackal - Not a hacker movie either, but the main character's methodical preparation for an assassination will appeal to a lot of hackers.

The Net - A pretty good thriller about a hacker who has her identity stolen in a big conspiracy.

Fat Man and Little Boy - Slow but well done movie about the Manhattan Project.

</comment><comment><USER49> Although not obviously related to startups or to hacking, I've found that all my hacker friends (yes - I have friends) love _The Princess Bride._

"Never get involved in a land war in Asia"

"Inconceivable!"

</comment><comment><USER50> "Antitrust" is cheesy, but if you suspend disbelief and just treat it as fiction, it's a very entertaining movie. And even Bill Gates is spoofed in the movie.

<comment><USER51> As far as computer movies go, Antitrust wasn't too bad; It at least had real code whenever it was needed to be shown on screen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> 5th Element, I think is the ultimate guy/hacker movie. Disutopian reality, future, flying cars, spaceships, tech and gadgets, weapons, awesome soundtrack, action, funny, love story, and hot chicks...

What do you want more from a movie?

<comment><USER10> I think they could make a whole series of prequels to the 5th element. I would love to see the adventures of "Corban Dallas"

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> Its sci-fi, but I have no doubt 2001:A Space Odyssey inspired many a hacker to go into AI.

</comment><comment><USER54> I can't believe no one's mentioned Back to the Future! Favorite scene: opening scene with the robotic arm automation Favorite quote: "You'll have to forgive the crudeness of this model, I didn't have time to paint it or build it to scale."

</comment><comment><USER55> Perhaps it's more of a good "science movie" than a good "hacker movie", but I adore Carl Sagan's _Contact_. I get chills whenever I watch the scene where the signal is first detected.

<comment><USER10> thats a hacker film. they had to find the signal, and then prove they were there!

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> I recently rented August from blockbuster.

Its about a VC funded startup with little revenue that goes bust.

It was a pretty terrible movie though and the web2.0 talk will make you cringe.

<comment><USER57> August was pretty bad. I just watched it Friday. What did LandShark do?

<comment><USER38> E-everything

<comment><USER57> "E is the highway, not the vehicle, we do not need traction." Well I would assume a highway is definitely built for vehicles, hence needs the traction to justify the investment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> I would go for some documentaries -

Triumph of the Nerds, Hackers : Angels or Daemons History of Video Games

another one on hacking from National Geographic, i can't recall the name

Antitrust too :P

<comment><USER53> Project Ardvark about a group of interns at Fog Creek Software

EDIT: The actual name is Aardvark'd: 12 Weeks With Geeks

<http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=984060502281891679>

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Loads, but Revolution OS for Stallman fanservice, Johnny Mnemonic (which everyone criticises, but Gibson did write the script), Sneakers _DVD commentary_ (Canadian R1 DVD), and I'll be cute and say Ferris Bueller for his hacks.

</comment><comment><USER60> Dup. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=396120>

_Ask HN: What's a modern equivalent of the 80's "War Games" movie?

4 points by gur 45 days ago | 5 comments | flag_

</comment><comment><USER61> I saw "Hackers are people too" recently. I is a very good documentary about Hackers and the culture.

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1279942/>

</comment><comment><USER62> Dare I say "Italian Job", the guy who hacks into the Traffic System. I think they said in the movie that napster was his idea, but someone stole it while he was sleeping.

</comment><comment><USER63> Sadly, it's kind of hard for me to come up with good hacker movies, but I can at least try to make a recommendation of interest to (most) hackers: Paprika. It's an anime film (by the same team that brought us Perfect Blue and Millennium Actress) that explores the ramifications of a device that allows someone to interact with someone else's dreams. Like I said, not a hacker movie per se, but I think it's one that most hackers will probably like.

<comment><USER64> As an aside millenium actress was really a great movie I thought... But of course not a hacker movie at all

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> I like The Lawnmower Man a lot too. Stunning graphics and it really captures the spirit of a computer enabling you to do much more cooler things than Real Life.

</comment><comment><USER66> My own cheesy favorite, The First $20 Million is the Hardest. Plus I love Rosario Dawson, so that's probably a contributing factor.

</comment><comment><USER67> The Devil Wears Prada

Its about fashion, but I see a lot of parallels with fashions in software coming and going and returning.

</comment><comment><USER68> BBS Documentary

</comment><comment><USER36> no wonder the netflix prize is such a _hard problem_.

</comment><comment><USER69> TRON

</comment><comment><USER70> (Canadian?) TV show "Regenesis". Biology stuff, apparently a bit of real science mixed in from time to time. The first couple of seasons or so are in syndication, so watch for it at really bad times in the US, like 1AM Monday on minor TV stations.

</comment><comment><USER31> I'm a little surprised "21" wasn't mentioned yet. The movie, like the book "Bringing Down the House", is a fictionalized account of a true story about how the MIT blackjack club took Vegas casinos for many thousands of dollars.

</comment><comment><USER71> An excellent movie I enjoyed was: Dark City It was kind of like a precursor to The Matrix.

<http://www.scifimoviepage.com/darkcity.html>

<comment><USER28> I haven't watched it yet but I'm told that the directors cut is much better and should be watched first.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086856/>

</comment><comment><USER73> Not a movie but "The Adventures of Brisco County Jr." is great fun, and is available on DVD. There's something kind of hackerish about it.

</comment><comment><USER74> Blade Runner's on there, too.

Oh, and cowboy bebop.

Another vote for: Hackers Sneakers

<comment><USER27> > Oh, and cowboy bebop

I think Ein, yes the dog, is my all time favorite character in any series/movie ever.

<comment><USER10> They are making a full motion movie. Supposedly the downside is they cased Spike as Keano Reaves. (i guess when i think about a 'film nior' space-cyber- punk-black-belt, i do not think about NEO)

<comment><USER27> How is it that you just completely made my day, and then absolutely destroyed it all in about 3 seconds? Oh yeah, Keano Reaves.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and Bogus Journey

Seriously. The timeline in those movies is an awesome puzzle. Not quite Primer, but the same vein.

</comment><comment><USER76> Zack and Miri make a porno

Seriously, they're broke, they bootstrap and they make the porn, and it's really entertaining.

</comment><comment><USER77> Primer - hackers doing a startup.

</comment><comment><USER78> The last season of 24 had really good hacking scenes. Also, Anitrust is a decent one.

</comment><comment><USER79> does Die Hard 4 count as one?

</comment><comment><USER80> I'd personally say The Friday After Next just sneaks into the top ten.

</comment><comment><USER41> Mission: Impossible (the first one, not so much the others)

</comment><comment><USER81> Army of Darkness.

</comment><comment><USER82> Revolution OS and Pirates of Silicon Valley

</comment><comment><USER83> Swordfish.

Yah, that was a joke...

</comment><comment><USER10> still a few more (some are in the works)

* Stargate

* "startup.com" - about the formation of 'govworks.com' i wonder what these guys think about Obama.

* Takedown - 'Kevin Mitnick's story'

* Serenity

* Star Trek: the Voyage Home

* The Last Starfighter

* Johnny Mnemonic

* Short Circuit 1 & 2

* Crest of the Stars (anime)

* Fahrenheit 451

* Equilibrium

* Batman (begins, dark night, the tim burten one)

* Edward Scissor Hands

* Space Balls

* Avalon ( [http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/decade/2000-current/ava...](http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/movie/decade/2000-current/avalon/#comments))

* LAIN: The Serial Experiments (anime)

* Cherry 2000

* Dune

* Ender's Shadow (in the works)

* Ender's Game (in the works)

* Diamond Age (in the works for sci-fi, 'a young girls illustrated primer')

* The Arrival

* The Terminator 1,2,3

* The Sarah Conner Chronicles

* D.A.R.Y.L

* Flight of the Navigator

* Explorers

* AI

* Batteries Not Included

* Blade Runner

* IRobot

* Appleseed (anime)

* Bubble Gum Crisis (anime)

* Ergo Proxy (anime)

* Virtuosity

* Metropolis (all of them are good)

* The Last Exile (anime)

* Cherry 2000

* Robocop (this so hold up)

* Primmer

* Probe ( the TV series, it took me 3 months to find the copies of this Issac Asimov based TV series on ABC ) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_(TV_series)>

* Infest Wisely

* Logan's Run

* Planet of the Apes

* Star Trek: First Contact

* CQ ( if you get it, you'll get why this is a hacker movie , 'la resistance')

* Amelie

* 2046

* Trigun (anime)

* Escaflone (anime)

* Tank Girl

* Twelve Monkeys

* THX 1138

* Bicentennial Man

* The Philadelphia Experiment [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philadelphia_Experiment_(fi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philadelphia_Experiment_\(film\))

* Seaquest ( some episodes )

* Strange Days ( new yeas hacker style )

* Freejack

</comment><comment><USER84> Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within. I saw it during a company outing to the cinema when it first came out. Lots of fun. Not a hacker movie per ce, but very cool animation, set in the future,etc. Also my first introduction to "gaia theory" which was interesting though actually I am on the reductionist, "selfish gene" side of that debate myself.

</comment><comment><USER85> Maybe not so much hacker, but let me suggest Slacker.</comment>