Personal Renewal - <AUTHOR> http://www.pbs.org/johngardner/sections/writings_speech_1.html

<comment><USER2> "But I did say tough-minded optimism. High hopes that are dashed by the first failure are precisely what we don't need."

As an extremely analytical person who wants to work on many hobbies (learning Spanish, salsa dancing, conversational dynamics, singing, etc. - pretty much everything that I'd like to be above average at and struggle at and continually shuffle among hobbies like the famous Chinese acrobat with spinning plates), this really touched me.

If I want to become better at something, I must accept poor results, especially in the beginning. I've managed to go from the awkward running out of moves/stepping on feet to actually enjoying dancing but that took a couple of years.

With Spanish, right now, I'm definitely handicapping myself as I simply am terrified to practice it outside of my understanding tutor who speaks slow-ly. I know that is holding me back (not attempting to make conversation) but I admit to myself that the now once-weekly tutoring session is an attempt to keep the 'learn Spanish' hobby on life support.

Ok I'm rambling but I had one of those maybe-a-deep personal insight this morning - I go to certain places/do certain things and more importantly avoid certain things - to preserve a day by day individual stat us quo. I'll probably consider deleting this comment once I read this again in a few hours.

<comment><USER3> For the Spanish, specifically: When (years ago) learning German and French, I found some popular music that I rather liked and listened to it a lot. This gave me a better feel for listening to the language. Since I enjoyed the music (and what I could understand of the lyrics, with added bursts of excitement when I figured out something new about them), this practice was itself a pleasure and it was not difficult to engage in. (It helped that I had friends who could provide a bit of context regarding the music as well as some recommendations.)

More recently, studies have elucidated that a lot of language acquisition occurs before/below the level of words and semantics. Infants first acquire language sound recognition and reproduction, for example. Also, different languages use/emphasis somewhat different frequencies in their speech. Extended listening to the language helps train the brain to focus on / stop filtering out those frequencies.

More generally, I find that you have to enjoy the process of learning. If you are simply aiming for some eventual goal, and view the process of getting there as a necessary misery, you are setting yourself up for failure.

Perhaps this is a bit sideways, but in some ways the Japanese film "Shall We Dance" may illustrate this. It's a wonderful film about a salaryman who falls sideways into ballroom dancing. A semi-fantasy about meeting an enigmatic woman in the window of a dance studio leads to an unexpected but personally enriching and empowering love of dance and the community it fosters.

(Be sure to watch the original Japanese version. The U.S. remake is a commercial gimmick that does disservice to the original film.)

I think we can (better) learn new things when we can enjoy them. If we think we have to learn them (completely) before we can enjoy them, that is sort of putting the cart before the horse. Of course, this is a generalization, and some things are difficult particularly at the start. But often there is still pleasure in there somewhere, long before one achieves mastery.

P.S. I know my more general "insight" here is hardly revelatory. But I find it a trap I have a tendency to keep repeating, myself, looking at the goal while neglecting making sure I'm enjoying the process. And if I'm enjoying the process, I tend to be more open to unexpected opportunities, e.g. the person who is happy to let me exercise my fledgling French even though they are fluent in English.

<comment><USER2> Thank you for your well-thought out response. All of what you've said jives with the advice I've been given. To immerse yourself is to learn.

> If you are simply aiming for some eventual goal, and view the process of > getting there as a necessary misery, you are setting yourself up for > failure.

I don't think I'm enjoying the process. I think the solution is to start going to Spanish Language meetups (break out of my one-on-one private tutoring) and maybe just walk around the Hispanic areas in my city and make smalltalk). Or maybe the solution is there is no solution - take advantage of serendipity, go with the 'unexpected opportunities' as you say..

> studies have elucidated that a lot of language acquisition occurs > before/below the level of words and semantics

"Impossible, because if you move somewhere foreign, you're going to learn the language unconsciously within 6 months. People who have only lived in the US don't know this. It almost takes no effort. The human brain is good at this sort of thing." from <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=500969>

One of my tutors recommended I buy the Spanish language audiobook and _the book_ and follow-along - much like I see my friend's kids do (and as I did when I was younger - 'when Tinker Bell rings the bell, turn the page'). I could probably even listen to it while sleeping. What's stopping me? Motivation. Why do I want to learn? Do I really want to go through the pain curve of becoming competent?

I'm also tempted to buy the Spanish language voice from [http://www.acapela- group.com/text-to-speech-interactive-demo...](http://www.acapela- group.com/text-to-speech-interactive-demo.html) and put in in the background and have it read Spanish newspaper articles to me. What's stopping me? Probably the fact that listening to Spanish news now is very draining energy wise - trying too hard perhaps?

Total immersion is the best way to learn. In fact, I now think that toddlers learning language is the _best_ possible total immersion program (e.g. their parents are 1) emotionally invested - encourage anything that represents progress with genuine admiration and smiles - e.g. 'Sigh' for 'Sky' is _close_ enough, to begin - and 2) have the requisite patience and 3) the toddler wants to control/understand his environment [e.g. terrible twos] - so it is his/her incentive to improve quickly - as a side note, maybe that is why 'No' becomes a very common word for parents to utter..).

> the Japanese film "Shall We Dance" may illustrate this

Years ago, I saw the original. Loved it. A favorite, even though I've never watched it again. So much better than the remake (even though I've never seen the remake - I know it can't be as good). In retrospect, I think it may have inspired me.

An interesting comic about "Learning" vs "Knowing" (via another HN comment) <http://jackiesfridge.comicgenesis.com/d/20001227.html> I love listening to Salsa music, even before I could pick up the beat and the words - which I'm still struggling to decipher.

Beloit College's Summer Intensive Language School ( _not for beginners?_ )

<http://www.summerlanguages.com/index.php>

<comment><USER3> I went to Middlebury College's Summer Language Program for French. In seven weeks, I skipped past 2 years of college level French classes. I was well beyond the norm for that class, but it was not an exceptional amount of work.

The instructors there were a real credit. And it was a kick to sit down at dinner with people from the more advanced classes (including graduate level learners) and have them respond somewhat incredulously, "You're in BEGINNING French?"

It was fun -- a lot of fun, and mentally challenging in a good way. That made it easy to do.

The Middlebury French program was just beginning to use a new video based course course instruction / materials. This didn't reduce the contribution of their instructors, but it enhanced the experience significantly. It really helped in presenting French as actually spoken (well, relatively so; it's still relatively free of the everyday slang and contractions). It also presented language use _in context_. You saw the setting in which things were being discussed and used. There was a lot of supplementary information regarding (Parisian) French culture and behavior, that you picked up not deliberately but as much by osmosis while watching the story within the lessons. And there was just that, a running storyline that helped you to stay engaged and curious as to how it would unfold. It was somewhat campy, deliberately so and with an open wink, but nonetheless enjoyable. Finally, you could watch the videos as often as you liked. Something I found possible with the videos, while language audio tapes almost immediately put me to sleep.

(Actually, the Middlebury instructor was godmother to the video course developer/instructor's daughter. She had a very good handle on the material and an excellent pedagogical pedigree. Her assistant was equally excellent.)

For Spanish, there is at least one instructional course I am aware of that uses videos. It is fairly contemporary with the French video material I've been describing.

Destiños

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destinos>

The videos are available on line, albeit in DRM'ed WMF/WMV format with a quite small framesize. A legitimate route to a better format may be through your library (tapes/DVDs: unfortunately very expensive for individual purchase), or per chance a local PBS station if you are in the U.S. There is also at least one torrent floating around, although I've never downloaded it.

Again, the show has a running story to help keep you engaged.

By the way, at the bottom of that Wikipedia page is a link to a page on the French video course that I was describing: French in Action.

HTH

<comment><USER3> P.S. I didn't look at your links, yet, Wallflower (my apology, but I wanted to respond before I got sidetracked).

Your text did mention Beloit and "not for beginners". This suddenly made me think further of my own experiences. Middlebury's program was billed as "immersion", and you actually signed a "contract" of sorts stating that you would use the language you were learning exclusively at all times to the best extent possible.

Sounds really impressive, up front. In practice, many of the beginning class members were not that motivated and they mostly spoke English outside of class. The amount of effort and success varied, and plenty of people showed some good will effort. But the "immersion" experience did not match the marketing.

I was more than a little frustrated by this. But in terms of a lesson to pass on, I would say not to allow yourself to be intimidated by such marketing language. If you have an honest intent to learn and practice, that's probably going to quickly place in you the top 25% of performers, regardless of your starting ability.

I also spent some time during college in Munich, Germany, as part of an exchange program. Again, the program billed itself as "advanced" and requiring fluency and daily use of German. In practice, a lot of those kids could barely string a sentence together. (And you haven't lived until you've heard German spoken with a full on Dallas drawl. ;-) It seems that one kind of marketing for these language courses focuses on projecting the image of "advanced learners". My personal, anecdotal experience is that, for the U.S. audience, at least, and a couple of decades ago, this was consistently, dramatically exaggerated.

Don't let a bunch of attitude put you off. If you really want to learn, you're already ahead of 4/5 of the pack.

Cheers!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> One of the best reads. So well written and so many good anecdotes. Few good ones:

One must be compassionate in assessing the reasons. Perhaps life just presented them with tougher problems than they could solve. It happens.

Or maybe they just ran so hard for so long that somewhere along the line they forgot what it was they were running for.

Life is hard. Just to keep on keeping on is sometimes an act of courage.

A famous French writer said "There are people whose clocks stop at a certain point in their lives."

Don't be too hard on yourself. Look ahead. Someone said that "Life is the art of drawing without an eraser." And above all don't imagine that the story is over. Life has a lot of chapters.

You don't need to run down like an unwound clock. And if your clock is unwound, you can wind it up again. You can stay alive in every sense of the word until you fail physically.

The more I see of human lives, the more I believe the business of growing up is much longer drawn out than we pretend.

You find that the world loves talent, but pays off on character.

You come to understand that most people are neither for you nor against you, they are thinking about themselves.

You learn that no matter how hard you try to please, some people in this world are not going to love you, a lesson that is at first troubling and then really quite relaxing.

You finally grasp what S. N. Behrman meant when he said "At the end of every road you meet yourself."

'Did you collaborate in your own de feat?" A lot of people do. Learn not to.

You never get the impression that a cow is about to have a nervous breakdown. Or is puzzling about the meaning of life.

There are men and women who make the world better just by being the kind of people they are.

Life is tumultuous -- an endless losing and regaining of balance, a continuous struggle, never an assured victory.

Someone said "It's all right to be a late bloomer if you don't miss the flower show."

</comment><comment><USER5> On the flipside, if you want to be great at physics or math, and you are older than 30, you probably missed your chance. Better luck next life.

<comment><USER6> Maybe you can't create new physics and math, but is it also true that you can't learn to do many useful things with them? I'm not sure. I'd like to think it isn't.</comment></comment>


Essential summer bootcamp in Hungary for international geeks - <AUTHOR> http://campus.carnationgroup.com looking for young talents (web & mobile developer, UX designer, content creator etc) for a 4 week-long non-traditional summer university in Hungary at lake Balaton <comment><AUTHOR> btw free plane ticket from anywhere in the world</comment>


Free Online Education Is Now Illegal in Minnesota - <AUTHOR> http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/18/minnesota_bans_coursera_state_takes_bold_stand_against_free_education.html <comment><USER2> As correctly pointed out by another comment posted overnight in Minnesota's time zone, this blog post is just blogspam of the earlier Chronicle of Higher Education blog post, which was discussed on Hacker News beginning yesterday.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4671196>

The title of the Slate blogspam piece is even more exaggerated and link- baiting than the title of the Chronicle piece; both titles are factually wrong. Both blog posts overstate the impact of the Minnesota notice to higher education institutions, which has resulted only in a fig-leaf change to Coursera's ToS directed to Minnesota residents, and has had NO effect on Coursera's operation in Minnesota. As noted in my comment on the first thread,

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4672038>

I am a Minnesota resident, I am enrolled in multiple Coursera courses (and two of my children are enrolled in Coursera courses), and I will be speaking to my state legislators about this as a precaution after first speaking to the Minnesota Department of Education about this when business hours begin here. The sun will rise in the east here in Minnesota just like everywhere else today, and all is well with the world. Well, maybe not quite everything is well with the world, as two of the top eleven most active posts on HN just now

<http://news.ycombinator.com/active>

are both discussions of this very exaggerated story about Minnesota, neither checked with actual on-the-ground reporting on students currently enrolled in Coursera courses in Minnesota.

ONE MORE EDIT: Thanks to the several commenters (at various comment levels in various subthreads) who suggested policy considerations to bring up with the offices of my state senator and state representative today during the campaign season, and to the commenters who pointed to various possible interpretations of the relevant statutes and possible partisan political considerations related to this issue. I'll digest all that after giving blood today, and send an email to the state Office of Higher Education

<https://www.ohe.state.mn.us/>

and to my legislators. Over the weekend, I'll be doing homework in my Coursera courses [smile].

<comment><USER3> I agree with most of what you say (and thank you also for the link), but not "all is well".

Quite possibly the importance of this law should not be overstated, and I agree with you and your children carrying on with your Coursera courses. But apparently you will be doing so in violation of the law.

Should not unjust laws be protested, if perhaps also disobeyed? I would not exactly be afraid to continue using Coursera in Minnesota, but experience has taught me that law enforcement should never be trusted 100% to be reasonable.

That said, you mentioned that you will be speaking with your state legislators -- you are doing as much to fight this as anyone reasonably could, and for that you have my gratitude. If 10,000 other Minnesotans took the same action as you, this would die as it deserves to.

<comment><USER4> If people protest laws they dislike, but not protest against the whole democratically elected dictatorship board with all their laws and regulations, it won't you get anywhere. But once people realise it's not legitimate to aggress against people based purely on "majority rule" with disregard to basic property rights, the government will dissolve.

<comment><USER5> Property "rights" are a construct that is meaningless without government. In the state of nature, you have no rights as against someone who is stronger who can take from you what he wants.

The creation of property rights is an imposition of the dictatorship of the majority. It tells the strong that they cannot use their natural gifts to further their own interests under the penalty of collective force. If the will of the majority dissolves, property rights are meaningless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Coursera terms of service: <https://www.coursera.org/about/terms>

Notice for Minnesota Users

Coursera has been informed by the Minnesota Office of Higher Education that under Minnesota Statutes (136A.61 to 136A.71), a university cannot offer online courses to Minnesota residents unless the university has received authorization from the State of Minnesota to do so. If you are a resident of Minnesota, you agree that either (1) you will not take courses on Coursera, or (2) for each class that you take, the majority of work you do for the class will be done from outside the State of Minnesota.

Previously reported: [http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/minnesota-gives- cours...](http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/minnesota-gives-coursera-the- boot-citing-a-decades-old-law/40542)

Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4671196>

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't see how you can make such a determination about a online information site (i.e. one that provides information but not accredited diplomas or degrees.) You can learn all day from Wikipedia, will they ban wikipedia next? This really looks like politicians overreaching on behalf of some frightened post-secondary institution.

From the article's page, commenter Greg Shenaut points out that further reading of MN law would render this political "threat" moot. His comment pasted below:

Bottom line, they should have considered Coursera, since it offers no degrees at all, under their "Private Career Schools" statute (Chapter 141) rather than under their "Private and Public Postsecondary Education Act (136A.61-71)". The latter act is concerned with (1) degree granting institutions and (2) schools that call themselves universities or colleges as part of their name. Coursera grants no degrees and doesn't call itself anything except "Coursera" (or coursera.org), so it is really bizarre that they decided to regulate it under 136A.61-71.

If they had made the opposite determination, then, under 141.21(10) and 141.35(17), Coursera would probably have been exempted from any need for official approval: "[The Private Career Schools Act] shall not apply to... schools with no physical presence in Minnesota, as determined by the office, engaged exclusively in offering distance instruction that are located in and regulated by other states or jurisdictions".

<comment><USER8> Reading the article informed me that they are banning Coursera because universities are conducting classes on the site. That's not the case for wikipedia.

Additionally, said universities are referring to themselves as their traditional name (e.g. "stanford university") and not "coursera."

<comment><USER7> I seem to have missed this detail. However, why is it a problem if Stanford contracts out to some third party to operate a particular course? I enrolled in a local college a few years ago and took courses online. Not one of those courses was located within the college's web site- they were all third parties. Why would I have the expectation that the college doesn't vouch for the validity of the course material?

EDIT after reading the update: I read this as back to square one. Stanford is offering courses via Coursera for free. But Stanford doesn't offer free degrees. Why is that a problem?

MN's opinion seems to be its citizens can't get a degree online from a school outside of MN unless that school is registered with OHE. However, the quoted law speaks to not having a physical presence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It gets worse: religious schools are exempt from this law: <https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=136A.657>

Here's an index of the relevant statutes (scroll down to the 'MINNESOTA PRIVATE AND OUT-OF-STATE PUBLIC POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION ACT' section): <https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=136A>

<comment><USER10> I'm pretty sure that's there to exempt things like seminaries.

>Subd. 4.Statement required; religious nature. Any degree awarded upon completion of a religiously exempt program shall include descriptive language to make the religious nature of the award clear.

<comment><USER9> Good clarification, pdubs. It seems a university like St. John's might not be exempt, but its School of Theology might be.

If true, it's still strange to me that school with a non-free graduate degree in liturgical studies would be exempt, but an online school offering free courses in science, business, history, etc. would not be exempt.

<comment><USER11> Liturgical studies by a religious organization are specifically protected under the the 1st Amendment[1][2]. Schooling has been a state domain for a very long time (look at Texas and California's influence on textbooks). The regulating of schools does not violate the US or MN constitution.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)>

[2] consumer protection law and religious organization <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantwell_v._Connecticut>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> When are we going to stop the nonsense to stop any disruption to any existing business by making laws against it? Just like in france recently they want to tax Google for referencing the contents of french newspapers on the basis that they are benefiting from their contents to put their ads - this never stops and the politicians are too easy to corrupt.

<comment><USER13> When we stop being a for-profit society. Don't hold your breath.

<comment><USER14> No; when government becomes sufficiently small.

<comment><USER15> No and no; when we are sufficiently globalized and companies are taxed (fairly) by all countries. In your example, France is pissed off they're not getting a slice of the billion dollar pie because Google sits in the US. Our archaic ideas of "nations" are tied to land masses - not a great partner to a distributable service that can be accessed almost anywhere near the speed of light.

<comment><USER16> At the risk of derailing the discussion, it's my understanding that the US government is not getting much in corporate taxes from Google either, thanks to a well-established practice of tax-dodging by funneling profits into Ireland.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Something is very wrong with that country.

It is not mere about depriving people from their right to free information access, it is an attempt to deprive people from their right to grow up, to improve their lives, to learn how they have been cheated and by whom.

For example, to learn that not just those finance guys, but the whole economic science has no clue about what's going on with the economy, except that it is very broken.)

<comment><USER4> Something is very wrong because people believe in positive rights. Like the right to information access, to improve lives etc. Because to provide positive rights someone must be coerced to do so. And you end up with a huge government that ceases, distributes and tells you how to live.

Enter negative rights. For instance, a right to protect yourself and your property against aggression. You can't take mine, I can't take yours. Now we do not always need anyone else to resolve any conflict between us. (We may ask a judge for help, but it is not required.)

In this case the problem is not with a right to education. Minnesota state violates negative rights of the educator and a student to do what they want with themselves (provided they do not aggress upon property of others).

If you think in terms of negative rights you will see solution to many difficult problems. But if you continue thinking in terms of positive rights, you will get more arbitrary judgements and more aggression.

<comment><USER18> Positive rights are necessary because many natural rights have been taken away.

I think, as a human born in the U.S. I have a _divine_ right to erect a structure to sleep in and keep the snow off so I don't die. But that right disappeared long ago.

Since the property-owning class (private and government) took that right away from me, they now have an obligation to provide me some things.

Or would you prefer armed revolution where I take back my right to establish reasonable shelter?

<comment><USER4> You never had a right to establish any shelter. You have a right to appropriate what's unowned or receive something in voluntary exchange.

Now if you stand on a justly owned property (like my house), then you play by the rules of the owner or go away.

If you stand on unjustly owned property (like a forest protected by the state), then you may use part of it as your own provided you do not alter objective properties of this forest that were enjoyed by everybody prior to you. E.g. if you noticeably alter the air quality by cutting it down, prior users of the air may ask you for compensation.

Also, it's a losing strategy to talk about somebody's obligations. If somebody has robbed you, he must 1) compensate what's stolen 2) be punished. He is not obliged to provide you with social security, free speech and fast internet.

<comment><USER18> While there is some marginal amount of class mobility, property ownership in the U.S. is correlated almost entirely with privilege. The more white/rich/male/citizen/straight/cis/typical-bodied/neurotypical boxes you can tick, the more likely you are to be a property owner.

The fact that you think Mitt Romney owning property is "just ownership" while the children of, say, a non-citizen Native American who came back across the Mexican border in the 90s to his ancestral lands in San Diego county are "just non-property owners" is absurd.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> And once again a service discovers the thorny world of regulation framework that was design for a specific set of circumstances and is being applied like a hammer to an egg.

<comment><USER20> No, it's being applied exactly as it was intended: to reduce competition, for the benefit of existing players, at the expense of Minnesota consumers.

<comment><USER21> Exactly. This is what happens in blue states: protectionism and regulation designed to benefit a defined constituency while screwing the majority. This law never would be passed or enforced in Texas.

<comment><USER22> I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not?

<comment><USER13> If not sarcastic it's wildly ignant. Texas special interests ensure that majority of text books are bland, puritanical and contain creationist pseudo- science.

<comment><USER23> Protection-of-trade laws are also a pretty common feature of "red states" in general; I don't think there's a discernible partisan divide. For example, Utah recently had its laws surrounding regulation of hair braiders partially invalidated (<http://www.ij.org/utah-hairbraiding-release-8-9-2012>). There was also a famous case in Louisiana over monks selling caskets without a license.

<comment><USER24> Not to mention that East Texas is the Patent Troll capitol of the U.S.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> How could they enforce this? If someone from Minnesota takes a class, is Minnesota going to sue Coursera? Fine/jail the student? There's really no option that doesn't leave Minnesota looking bad.

<comment><USER26> > How could they enforce this?

Whatever government agency the schools in minnesota have an influence over.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> It seems this would hinge on defining coursera as a "college"?

I'm assuming this was legislation passed in order to prevent people creating bogus for-profit universities.

But coursera doesn't charge money or offer accredited qualifications.

So how would this differ from any other educational site, like say stackoverflow?

Does it hinge around the fact that it is unofficially associated with certain existing universities like Stanford etc by using their logos and lecturers?

</comment><comment><USER28> I'd love to learn which government official and department is responsible for this action so we can direct our dislike of this decision towards them.

P.S. The ML class Andrew Ng is teaching on Coursera is phenomenal by the way.

<comment><USER29> A bureaucracy calling itself a "Minnesota Office of Higher Education"

<https://www.coursera.org/about/terms>

<https://www.ohe.state.mn.us/>

<comment><USER21> Which is entirely Democrat.

<comment><USER30> Every comment of yours in this thread is partisan political bullshit. Take it back to reddit.

<comment><USER21> The FACTS are that Lawrence Pogemiller, director of the Minnesota Office of Higher Education is a Democrat. Pogemiller represented Minnesota Senate District 59. District 59 includes the University of Minnesota, the largest University in Minnesota. So yes, party is relevant to this discussion.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Pogemiller>

<comment><USER31> And the FACT is that Lawrence Pogemiller is the one who said that Minnesota does NOT intend to enforce this law against Coursera (overriding the earlier statement from the person in charge of registration), and will be working in January with the legislator and governor to get the law amended to take into these new developments in online education.

If you are intending to try to smear Democrats, you are doing a spectacularly poor job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> This is an opportunity for Minnesota residents to learn about geoIP and how to circumvent it. I sense a fresh new Coursera course.

<comment> martin-adams Catch-22 I'm afraid.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> From my understanding, Coursera can charge a fee (say $1) and become fully legal. That could be a third option for Minnesota citizens.

<comment><USER34> It's not the "free" part that is causing the problem – the law is that anyone offering courses has to register and pay a fee to the state, which might seem reasonable for an institution charging tuition. It becomes absurd when they ask that an institution like Coursera ask permission of the state and pay a fee to provide free classes that lead to no degree.

<comment><USER21> The government loves their fees. You can't take a dump Minnesota without paying someone. Same in California.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Makes me wonder if online for-profit schools have government permission to offer instruction in the state.

<comment><USER21> Follow the money. Walden University is based in MN. Find our which politicians received the contributions. But Minnesota people will still continue voting for the same people so even if we did know, it's of no consequence. It's the same reason guys like Jesse Jackson Jr, and Marion Berry keep getting reelected year after year despite their obvious corruption and incompetence.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Education, and self-education specifically is a fundamental human right.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around this.

</comment><comment><USER37> This is very worrying to me. Not because of the actual ruling itself (which seems fairly unenforceable, unless they're going to get Minnesota-based ISPs to block Coursera), but because of the precedent it sets. What else can states ask their residents not to read or look at? And what are the consequences if they do?

Additionally, while a private resident of Minnesota can happily continue using Coursera (at least for now) without consequence, this could have an impact on Minnesota public schools. If I were a Minnesota public school teacher, I would now be very reluctant to use Coursera in my classroom. All it takes is one student to tell Mommy and Daddy that they got assigned homework from an "illegal website," and there could be a shitstorm. (I realize that Coursera isn't really targeted at school-age kids, but what if it had been Khan Academy?)

</comment><comment><USER38> Wow, there's a lot of hyperbole going on here. I'm a little disappointed people on HN are falling for it.

It seems pretty clear from reading the article that Minnesota isn't stopping anybody from taking online courses.

But to be officially recognized in Minnesota requires that the entity providing the education is registered as an educational entity in Minnesota. I'm pretty sure _most_ states have laws like this. Here's why: I know nothing about biology, but without laws like this, there would be nothing stopping me from offering classes on biology.

In this case it's obvious Coursera is legit, but in a lot of cases it may not be so obvious.

<comment><USER39> > I know nothing about biology, but without laws like this, there would be > nothing stopping me from offering classes on biology.

What if you _did_ know something about biology, and furthermore you were a really good teacher, and you wanted to post YouTube videos to spread the knowledge for free (like Salman Khan). If the law said you had be registered as an educational institution, you'd first have to navigate the bureaucracy, probably pay some outrageous fees, and you'd probably end up being rejected because you're doing things in a new and innovative way which the law didn't account for. Would you go through all that and try to fight it just to give away some YouTube videos for free?

Probably not, and that would deprive the public of a new opportunity to learn. That wouldn't serve the public interest.

<comment><USER38> Your completely missing the point.

Minnesota isn't trying to stop Coursera's innovation.

They just need to certify they're teaching legitimate stuff before they can claim to be an educational institution in Minnesota.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me. If I wanted to teach people, it seems reasonable to prove that I know the subject I'm teaching.

<comment><USER40> And you're missing the point that if anyone tries any online educational innovation, they can potentially be stopped by every locality in the world shaking them down for money on a dubious pretense, if we let Minnesota set a precedent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> FYI, this rule has been changed:"Obviously, our office encourages lifelong learning and wants Minnesotans to take advantage of educational materials available on the Internet, particularly if they're free. No Minnesotan should hesitate to take advantage of free, online offerings from Coursera."

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/19/minnesota...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/19/minnesota_coursera_ban_state_won_t_crack_down_on_free_online_courses_after.html)

</comment><comment><USER42> I live in Minnesota. I had never heard of Coursera, but I just signed up for my first course. I had also never heard of BuckyBalls before the government threatened to ban them and ended up buying some. Interesting how prohibition or threat of creates certain desires.

</comment><comment><USER43> I wonder if they will apply the same restrictions to Udacity which offer course completion certificates? It's worrying that such a harmless mode of learning can be threatened by the stupidity of a few government officials.

</comment><comment><USER44> An U.S state is making illegal online education before even Iran does? Well, I hope they won't try to enforce this regulation by blocking coursera inside Minnesota, that would start to be really scary.

</comment><comment><USER45> This is a classic case of a law that needs to be changed. When your country has an education problem, even charging the universities a fee for free courses is simply stupid.

</comment><comment><USER46> In other news, smart people are now illegal aliens in Minnesota.

</comment><comment><USER47> What defines as "instructions"? Most products has instruction manuals. Most companies has instruction manuals for new employes.

Written instructions are not that uncommon.

</comment><comment><USER48> And this is a prime opportunity for Minnesota residents to learn about proxies :)

</comment><comment><USER49> Someone should go to prison for this.

</comment><comment><USER50> EDIT I:

Based on feedback below, I have added my two bits to this conversation

Even supposedly conservative countries are opening up their elite curriculums like this NPTEL effort in India to disseminate the IIT curricula for free on YouTube: <http://nptel.iitm.ac.in>

Placed in context, this bit of news seems particularly galling!

</comment><comment></comment><comment>====

I'm going to try this line again, particularly since tvtropes says: "On its way to becoming a Forgotten Trope, a Seen It All Suicide occurs when a cartoon character, having seen some outrageous sight, proclaims "Now I've seen everything!" and promptly produces a pistol and shoots himself on the spot."

Wat?[0] >>> Now I've seen everything! !Bang! <<< [1]

[0] That "Wat" feeling. Cf., <https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat>

[1] <http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeenItAllSuicide>

EDIT II: [This last line removed/redacted based on feedback from below]

<comment><USER51> You're being downvoted because your comment adds nothing to the discussion.

Comments don't need to be completely void of humour, but a comment that is only intended to be a joke isn't appreciated on Hacker News. I'm writing this as a courtesy as you are new here, and no-one has explained your mistake in your other low-value comments.

<comment><USER50> +1 for taking the time to explain (without too much snark, like the other comrade).

However I merely pointed out that this whole thing is wildly OTT by quoting an old meme.

Other than this what else can someone add in matter like these? It would be presumptuous (in my World view at least) to mouth opinions on how the World ought to be run when it is very clear to me that most of these things are like random chance set into motion where things become apparent only in hindsight. One example of this is the Joshua Bell experiment: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Bell#Washington_Post_exp...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Bell#Washington_Post_experiment)

Thanks again for pointing this.

<comment><USER51> I don't comment much on topics where I feel I lack enough knowledge to add anything to the conversation, even if I find the post or conversation interesting. As a result, I only really comment on perhaps < 2-3% of the threads I read. I imagine this is similar to a lot of other HNers and it helps keep the signal-to-noise ratio relatively high.

With no snark intended, it boils down to: "If you have nothing to add, don't."

<comment><USER50> Two takeaways for me from today's experience:

1\. >> even if I find the post or conversation interesting

The "interesting" bit is important. There have been (less popular) threads where I have noticed funny for funny's sake comments being left alone. A trending topic is a dangerous topic for comments where your comments will be read by more people who are likely to feel that it does or does not add much "value".

2\. >> "If you have nothing to add, don't."

I don't think that sentiment can be expressed any differently, snark or not. :) You could have been more blunt too. I think that point's very valid within the HN subculture.

Irony is, both these takeaways are something that one picks up "after the fact", which in itself is ironic.

Ciao.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: what to do with an invention? - <AUTHOR>

I have an idea for an invention. I am going to start down the design/prototyping path, but I have no idea what the patent process looks like or how to get something manufactured and sold once I know it works. What are some good resources to learn about this sort of thing? <comment><USER2> Congratulations on your idea. First, head to:

<http://www.uspto.gov/patents/process/index.jsp>

The patent process can be grueling, but don't be discouraged. Even if you think you've found a prior art, don't be discouraged. Improvements upon existing patents are patentable.

Just be sure to document all of your work. And do try to build a prototype and document that, too. As for the actual filing of the patent -- there are awful ways to do it, and there are brilliant ways to do it. So, finding a good attorney is key, and you'll have to ask around.

My personal experience was on closer to the "awful" side of the spectrum, wasting about $20K on an attorney that didn't have a grasp/experience on the type of intellectual property (IP) I invented.

Best of luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> Check out provisional patents.</comment>


I'm an introverted hacker. I want to join a frat. - <AUTHOR> [niceFirstPost]
Let's start here: I'm a college freshman, and introverted and sheltered as hell. I've always been a shy, timid, geeky hacker.
Introversion-wise, I can't handle extended amounts of time with people, or large crowds. Both drain me like no other. I've always been shy and mellow. Sheltered-wise, I never party or get drunk or any of that.
But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on.
[b]So I rushed a frat.[/b] And I got a bid. (Probably cause I look good more than anything else.) And tonight I went to the first meeting.
And here's the problem. Getting in was easy because it was just an alumni panel and an interview. [b] But I'm not sure how - or if - I can get through the pledge process.[/b] I'm just so far behind everyone else: I'm not good in crowds; don't know how to act at parties; don't know how to drink and drinking games; don't know how to dance; don't know.
[b] Here's my first question: [/b] Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process? (It's not a hardcore frat, so there's no hazing and such.) Or should I work on my social skills for a semester and pledge again?
[b] Next question: [/b] If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how? (Talking? Being in groups? Drinking/Games? Partying?)
Thanky.
[/niceFirstPost\ <comment><USER2> Quit and join campus activities that actually interest you. You will have a much better college experience if you say, join the Campus Radio because you like music and everyone else is there because they like music. In most greek fraternities, there is usually zero shared interest why you're there. It's an institution with no core purpose or function other than guaranteeing its own survival by luring in more freshmen. At least the large monolithic bureaucratic organizations in our society exist to fulfill some purpose, however inefficiently.

In business, you choose your associates carefully and don't spend time with people who bring down your focus and energy. Rushing a fraternity is the opposite of choosing your associates carefully. It's taking a big risk on who your going to be stuck with for the next 4 years and gambling away your identity.

When you commit yourself to a time intensive organization or social group, it becomes your identity to everyone else (like it or not). If you want to live a self-aware life, only commit your time and identity to organizations whose function and purpose you passionately believe in.

If you are doing it to party, rest assured other campus organizations will party just as much. If you are doing it to meet girls, do community service instead. Trust me, hot girls LOVE doing community service.

edit: thanks for the downvotes, br0s.

Challenge to any fraternity members: How are Greek Fraternities not the exact definition of a "sick system" as defined here: <http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html> and discussed thoroughly on YC here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1677013>

?

<comment><USER3> There's a benefit to getting to know people with interests other than yours. Perhaps you'll discover that you actually like something new.

<comment><USER2> Agreed. However (analogy) if you want to get to know someone you go on a date, not get married.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I joined a fraternity because I was an introverted engineering major, and wanted to get some social skills.

It worked. In addition to social skills, I took leadership positions, managed teams of people, managed a budget, learned invaluable presentation skills, and probably most importantly, gained a great deal of self-confidence.

I wouldn't be a startup founder without all those skills, nor would I be a startup founder without my hacker skills.

That said, the fraternity I joined annually won awards as a top fraternity at it's campus and nationally. I know many others who joined fraternities and had very different experiences.

<comment><USER5> I have one warning for the author tho. Frats are societies and as such they are regulated by a hierarchy. Don't ever forget it. You don't need to be a leader right away, but you certainly want to avoid the bottom of the ladder. There is - always - at least one goofy in every group.

 _I want to be social and party and so on._

You probably just want a shortcut to girls. I'd say go for it, experience things by yourself. But remember that your adhesion to a frat (or anything else for that matter) won't do everything for you. Status is determined by the way other members treat you.

By the way, "being good with crowds", "dancing", etc: it's a smoke screen. Don't focus on that. All you need is to be liked by the leaders (aspire to become one).

The first mistake you can make is trying to please them by doing everything they ask. You'll see the majority of people will try to please them this way. Avoid this trap.

Use your smartness and some boldness. Be active, make it your own experience, don't be passive and wait to be fed. If you are active and bring something with your personnality and energy, it'll be hard not to like you. Be around the right guys. A couple of social psychology books might be useful as well. It's a good challenge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm an Engineer (though I count myself as extroverted) and joined a fraternity in college. It's my junior year now. I also know a few Comp Sci kids in other fraternities.

The answer is: it depends on which fraternity you're looking at and what their values/priorities are.

The stereotypical fraternity guy that gets portrayed in tv shows does exist...but only in specific fraternities. I would shy away from that.

A fraternity can be a great experience and one you couldn't really trade for anything else. Not everyone starts college extroverted and outgoing.

My advice? Find a fraternity that will embrace you and extend your character NOT change who you are inside or alter your values. If that's what you've found, go for it. If not, keep looking.

In my fraternity, I'm hardly the only "nerd" around in terms of interests. We may not look like it from the outside but the topics we will discuss in our free time (which is sometimes at 3 in the morning) include everything from the typical college scene, to Israel/Palestine, Obama/McCain, melting polar caps, and the philosophy of death. I can easily say that my fraternity in college has let me find those guys that I want to be there at my wedding...not to mention gave me a number of fun stories to tell later!

Shoot me an email (it's in my profile) and we can gladly talk more about this if you want.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your last question! I think it might come as a surprise to some, but the things you will need to learn to fit in a fraternity are the same sorts of skills you need to be successful and outgoing in society. Don't focus on "learning drinking games"...but more on learning to be social, outgoing, raising your public speaking skills, etc. You'll find out that learning those skills not only makes college life a lot cooler (you'll also turn into a leader and hone those skills) but also raise you in society, and that covers everything from nailing a job interview to successfully talking to a lady.

</comment><comment><USER7> Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson from doing great things.

Forget about the frat. Go hack on a project that interests you. Both you and the world will be better off for it.

<comment><USER8> "Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson" funny you should have mentioned both of these folks, they both died virgins. The world might have been better, but they never got to experience an important part of being human.

<comment><USER9> Be careful with that line of reasoning, especially when not everyone may have the same ideas of what is "an important part of being human". Using your brain to do physics/math/writing/programming seems more important an experience than having sex.

<comment><USER10> Isn't making a personal, emotional connection with another human being pretty universally considered an important part of being human?

If you're one of those people who look down on the pursuit of sex as not worthy of their time/intelligence/effort replace "sex" with "love".

Is doing math more important than experiencing love?

Anyway, I think OP is making the point that it's perfectly possible to do great intellectual things, make a difference in the world, and still get laid regularly.

So "I'm too busy doing math" isn't really a valid excuse.

<comment><USER2> Are you implying that Isaac Newton was having fun the wrong way? I fail to see the point. The most important thing to any organism or organization or complex system is survival, because everything that exists today got here by being good at existing.

Isaac Newton found a way to achieve immortality, he just did it by reproducing his ideas on paper as opposed to making mini-clones of himself with his dick.

<comment><USER10> Wow, my comment must have hit a nerve. I wonder if the people downvoting me have ever experienced being in a good relationship. I don't mean meaningless sex, although that is great too, I mean an emotionally involved relationship.

All I'm saying is that, although Newton accomplished great things, he would have felt more fulfilled and happier if he had also experienced a romantic relationship at some point.

Now, obviously there exist some people that are asexual and have no innate desire for sex, and there's nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't believe there is any healthy person in the world, no matter how introverted, who does not at some point desire a deep, meaningful relationship with another human being.

<comment><USER2> What about Buddhist Monks and Nuns? They must be very depressed.

I completely agree with you that relationships can be fulfilling.

I completely disagree with you that we should be so presumptuous as to let our experiences with modern day relationships say how one of the most influential people in the entire history of mankind should have lived his life in the 1600s while completely discounting societal factors such as the role of the Church in that time period and how vastly different courtship was from what we know now.

The 1600s.

<comment><USER11> We shouldn't be so presumptuous as to define the meaningfulness of any experience of any person in any time period outside ourselves, period.

It is possible that Newton might have been happier if he had experienced a romantic relationship, but it is just as likely he would have been unaffected, or worse off even.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Speaking as a shy person, who managed to mostly outgrow his shyness, remember these simple pieces of advice:

Know when you're being obnoxious, and don't be. Be nice, but don't let others push you around. Talk less, listen more, people like it when others listen to their BS, and don't like to listen to your BS. Don't be arrogant, don't assume people are stupider than you, even if they are. Be funny, but only from time to time, if you find yourself making an ass of yourself all or most of the time, calm down. Most importantly, be bold. Start small, talk to a stranger, do something stupid, or anything that makes you a bit uncomfortable, and gradually move up to the harder stuff, like asking a girl out, or something like that.

Don't be afraid of humiliating yourself to much. After you internalize the fact that being humiliated isn't so bad, being bold will not be to much of a problem, and you'll be less shy.

p.s.(if you have bad hygiene, start with that, being smelly makes most of the above advice useless.)

</comment><comment><USER13> Drinking and partying and dancing a lot will make you get better at drinking and partying and dancing.

People worry a lot about [achieve task X] _optimally_ , when really its probably fine to just [achieve task X] _somehow/eventually_.

For example, people read mountains of research to fine tune their workouts. Guys who work on farms do fine without. "Lift heavy things. Repeat." will make you strong enough that you shouldn't have to overthink the method you choose. Don't overthink the social skills thing either. Have fun. Repeat. Drink and party and dance and you'll get better at it.

</comment><comment><USER14> When I started college (I'm an Engineer), I was relatively extroverted, but definitely not a partier or drinker. I wanted to make some of the same changes you discuss, so I rushed a couple fraternities and made a lot of friends. I got bids from 3 fraternities but didn't go with any of them, because in the end, as much as I liked the people, the fraternity lifestyle just didn't jive with my independence.

I was still able to become well-entrenched in the social scenes, because I participated in a lot of extra-curricular activities: Formula SAE, Mobile Robotics, WKUF 97.3FM, The Muse (our art publication), DEX (collegiate marketing competition), Firebirds Car Club, started a rock band, etc. These are all things that interested me, and I met a lot of friends, across all fraternities and sororities and independents, who shared these interests.

My point is this: there are a lot of ways to make friends, be social, and party. Don't sell yourself short by thinking that a fraternity is the only path. There are a lot of good reasons to join a fraternity outside of the social/party aspect, those are the things you should be considering. If a fraternity seems right to you, then do it. If not, don't worry, there are other ways.

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't worry about "catching up" socially. Just try to enjoy yourself. And remember that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something to teach you. Make it your mission to figure out what that is (and yes, this will be harder with some people than others).

<comment><USER15> Wow, your experience reads almost exactly like mine. I wasn't an introvert just choosey about friends. I also did Formula SAE, Solar car racing, started a magazine with design students, started a culture-based student org. and DJed at WUVT (90.7) and house parties.

Good fraternities really play down the social networking aspect of themselves. If you even bring up parties and networking during rush they usually see it as a turn off. This comes from friends that wanted me to join, but since I already had a full calendar wouldn't have time for one more thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> FWIW, you will be in close proximity with other men, living in a house with them, hanging out on the couch with them, passing out and prancing around. However shitty your life might be now, at least you don't wake up to a 21 cock salute. I managed a property that a frat lived in, and seriously, it IS a _greek_ society.

It's also my opinion that ex-frat members retain that weird Vince Vaughn "dude" attitude well past their prime.

I recommend you join groups that are not self-segregating either by gender or anything else. Art and culture groups are nice.

</comment><comment><USER17> Just wondering: does the concept of fraternities make any sense to non-US readers? Are there parallels elsewhere? I went to a school in the US, but one that had abolished them years before I got there. I never felt that I was missing something. But it's interesting to read all the positive responses here.

True or not, one often hears that that US higher education is the best in the world. To my knowledge, only the US has fraternities and sororities: <[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>). And yet I've never heard anyone claim that this is our secret advantage. Perhaps?

<comment><USER18> No. That's not our secret advantage. This is our secret advantage: [http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america...](http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america- my-new-found-land/?pagination=false)

> _By far the best thing about America is its universities. Not Harvard, Yale, > e tutti quanti: though marvelous, they are not distinctively American—their > roots reach across the ocean to Oxford, Heidelberg, and beyond. Nowhere else > in the world, however, can boast such public universities. You drive for > miles across a godforsaken midwestern scrubscape, pockmarked by billboards, > Motel 6s, and a military parade of food chains, when—like some pedagogical > mirage dreamed up by nineteenth-century English gentlemen—there appears…a > library! And not just any library: at Bloomington, the University of Indiana > boasts a 7.8-million-volume collection in more than nine hundred languages, > housed in a magnificent double-towered mausoleum of Indiana limestone._

> _A little over a hundred miles northwest across another empty cornscape > there hoves into view the oasis of Champaign-Urbana: an unprepossessing > college town housing a library of over ten million volumes. Even the > smallest of these land grant universities—the University of Vermont at > Burlington, or Wyoming's isolated campus at Laramie—can boast collections, > resources, facilities, and ambitions that most ancient European > establishments can only envy.[fn1]_

> _..._

> _My own perspective is still colored by that year in Davis. Originally the > agricultural extension of the University of California, precariously perched > amid the rice paddies of the Sacramento River delta—halfway between San > Francisco and nowhere in particular—UC Davis now boasts 3.3 million volumes, > a world-class research faculty, and the country's leading green energy > program. Some of the most interesting colleagues I know have spent their > lives in Davis. At the time, however, this was a mystery to me: the year > completed, I retreated cautiously to the Olde English familiarity of > Cambridge. But nothing was quite the same. Cambridge itself felt somehow > reduced and constricting: the pancake-flat Fenland as remote as any rice > paddy. Everywhere is somewhere else's nowhere._

> _[fn1]: By way of comparison, the University Library in Cambridge, England, > boasts just seven million volumes; the University of Vienna (founded in > 1365) just 6.6 million._

<comment><USER17> Great article, thanks! I agree about the libraries. While the internet probably levels the field, I've visited libraries in many countries and feel confident saying that public libraries are one of things that America does right.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Own the geekiness.

Being comfortable and confident with who you are is the most important thing in life IMO, and other people gravitate towards people that are confident.

You can't fundamentally change who you are... it just doesn't happen, but you can grow gradually through your experiences, so I say take full ownership of who you are and don't force yourself into super uncomfortable situations. I say try it out, but be prepared to drop it if you find that it's just not for you.

<comment><USER20> Disagree. I decided in college to quit being the shy farm kid. Worked out great. Its just a matter of practice.

<comment><USER19> I should elaborate. I think he should work on being more social, but not necessarily social like the guys in the frats. Don't do what they do... be outgoing in your own way and be true to yourself. Wear those Magic: The Gathering t-shirts if that's what you love and you're guaranteed to find people that share your interests and who you will enjoy the company of more.

<comment><USER20> Dr Who TShirts!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I can't comment on the frat aspect, but I _can_ comment on how to be become extroverted: take some theater classes at the junior college. After 2 semesters of acting -- getting up in front of people and trying to project emotion and drama while interacting with your fellow actors -- you will never consider yourself shy again.

<comment><USER22> This over and over again!

My mother forced me to try out for drama my freshman year of high school. She bothered me all summer and said that if I tried out, I could choose whether to join or not, and she would never bother me again. I was shy, introverted and scared of most social situations that didn't involve my 4 highly geeky childhood friends. Going up on stage was simply not going to be something I was going to do. I agreed to go just so she would stop bothering me.

Brilliantly enough, I met so many girls during the audition and even got invited to a party later that night that I sang 'happy birthday' out of key and got the part of 'man with umbrella'. It never occurred to me after that day to not do drama. (FYI: men will usually always get some chorus part, and even if you can't sing, you'll be in a group of people who can, which is 10x easier than alone)

I did a musical every year throughout high school and had the _time_ of my life. It made it easy to speak in public, win business plan competitions, talk at trade shows, cold call people for sales, do interviews in front of a camera, and got me invited to 3-4 formals per year during high school.

If you want to start your own company this is the most fun way to be learning extroversion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm in a fraternity and can give you some coached advice. Every year we like to pull in that stereotypical, socially-awkward kid.

Why? Because their funny.

Your best bet is to be honest about your social ineptitude and play it off in a comedic fashion.

Pledging (and being around the older guys) will help you develop the social skills that you desire. If you're a hacker you're probably logical and analytical as hell. When you go out with these guys analyze them and what they do. Break it down and repeat their processes. What works for them will work for you.

</comment><comment><USER24> You've to differentiate between introversion and shyness. Introversion can't be overcome in the same way as shyness.

Introversion is a deep personal habit. If you don't like crowds, than you will never be able to enjoy them as extrovert people. You can get more used to them, but they will always exhaust you.

Shyness is more of a learnt habit, the result of missing interactions with people and the result of a low self-confidence. When you interact more with people and rise your self-confidence, than also the shyness will decrease.

<comment><USER25> Good point. I'm most certainly an introvert (I scored straight 100s in S and C on a recent DISC assessment), but not what I would consider shy. I'm not afraid of talking to people; I just normally don't have anything to say (or prefer to keep my snarky responses to myself).

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Joining a fraternity was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It is a million times more easy to become involved on campus activities when you have a large social network via the Fraternity.

I've got 100 friends for life, 20 of which I see frequently at various events like Homecoming or football games.

Stay with it until you get a better feeling for how well you mesh with everyone else and decide then - just make sure that you give it your all and try to hang out with them as much as possible.

Good Luck.

<comment><USER25> I was in the marching band my first quarter. There are 200 people I know at every football game.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> A) From what most of what my friends have said, pledging isn't that bad, but it depends on the frat

B) Attend something outside of your normal circle of friends. Join a student organization or club sports team if you like sports. I graduated with a EE degree and I did cheerleading (At a big ten university :) my sophomore and junior year of college. It was a great experience to meet people outside of other engineers.

As a side not, when I was a freshman I thought about joining a frat, but the reason why I didn't join was because people tend to label you based on what frat you belong to. This is especially true if you meet a sorority girl, they will instantly know the reputation of your frat. So just know the reputation of the frat you want to join first before joining.

</comment><comment><USER28> I've recommended it before; I'll recommend it again: improv. The other new people there won't know what they're doing either, so everyone else will be just as awkward as you are. It will teach you to be more comfortable in the spotlight, even when you have no idea what you're going to say next, or what you're currently saying. It also ends at a specified time (e.g., improv club meets from 9:00 to 10:30), so you don't have to make excuses to leave.

Besides, it's a crazy amount of fun.

</comment><comment><USER29> I was in your shoes once. Now I'm widely considered as one of most socially apt/spontaneous people in any group.

By all means - be bold. Heed my advice that fear is good while phobias are bad. You should embrace fear - since fear is what will motivate you to prepare for your encounters. While systematically working against your phobias. The only way to demolish your "phobias" is by acting against your fight/flight impulses.

Do not be affraid of making a fool of yourself. Because You WILL make a fool of yourself. Embrace it. Tell people about it. Remember you should always put your shortcomings/weak spots in public view (hide in plain sight). Thus people who will try to "damage" you will try to find your hidden spots - where you are actually the "hardest".

One thing that has worked for me (YMMV) is not to "follow" people. ESPECIALLY popular people - find "weak" people and start helping them on feeling better about themselves, help them out socially (the mere fact that you posted here is a sign that you are not so inept as you think of yourself). Thus you will create your own following - eventually converting the "popular" people into your own followers.

And listen to "Wear Sunscreen" - it contains all the secrets of the trade. That is all there is to it.

</comment><comment><USER30> It sounds like you know it already, but absolutely quit if you think anything turns into hazing -- it's a cheap way to build friendships and good fraternities don't need that. Past that, don't go overboard on drinking at first either. That's really not a good reason to be joining a fraternity anyway, you can drink with anyone.

Use your nerdier qualities to help the fraternity. We built an interactive carnival booth for a campus event that used a program I wrote to play different songs when an external switch was toggled. Don't let the fraternity change you -- use it as a way to be comfortable with your nerdiness. Friendships and social interaction will start becoming natural after that.

To echo what frederickcook said, there are -great- fraternities out there that will give you an opportunity to become a leader (and they are often the chapters that are winning national awards). Taking advantage of these opportunities is something I regularly cite as one of the best moves I made in undergrad. Try picking a less involved position in the house as soon as you can -- there are usually a few suited toward freshmen.

</comment><comment><USER31> Make sure you've chosen men you wish to become like; you do become like those you associate with. Make sure they're just, reasonable, and not buffoons or asses.

Past that, joining a Fraternity is one of the easiest ways to learn some of the soft skills of adulthood, including asking out women, enjoying the company of strangers, learning storytelling, learning smalltalk, and completing project involving the motivation and leadership of other men.

Some of them are a also a good way to learn poor habits with alcohol or distasteful treatment of women: Make sure you aren't in one of those.

Additionally, many of them do bad things to your grades (however on average, most greeks do better than non-greeks gradewise). Make sure you're in one who has one of the higher 2-3 grades on campus with stringent grade standards.

Usually in most fraternity organizations, you get a guide/brother assigned to you; bring up some of your doubts with him and you may find out he will have some suggestions for you and be able to help some.

</comment><comment><USER32> Hey, it's important to take the #JFDI concept and put it to this as well. I'm a very extroverted individual (makes sense since I focus on the actual business part of startups - non-tech) and I can say I have this same "shy and sheltered" personality about entering the engineering scene.

God knows, how much I would love to get into it, as I'm sure you would love to get into the whole social scene.

Don't worry about "where to start" "who to talk to" "what to learn and how". Just fucking do it. Although I'm not encouraging underage drinking, pick up a cup, don't get too crazy, have a good time.

While you are trying to be social and extroverted for maybe the first time of your life, the ONLY thing that is going to make you look awkward to your frat brothers or any other people is how YOU see yourself.

Don't hesitate, get out there, get knee deep into the scene and pretty soon you'll have friends who appreciate you and you will be able to be real open with all of them.

</comment><comment><USER33> Love this post, and I hope my thoughts can help. I am fairly recent Comp Sci grad who is probably one of the most well liked guys in my Fraternity, as well as other frats.

Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process?

Yes and yes.

If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how?

A few things:

1) Think before you talk/act, aka, don't do anything stupid/embarrassing. I see so many guys just blurt shit out that they think is funny, but actually makes people (girls) feel super uncomfortable.

2) Be nice. Always. Don't be condescending or every try and look down on others. Be polite and a gentleman. Don't try and be some macho dick head guy like alot of the other frat guys are. The more you help your brothers out (as well as other fraternity guys) the more they will have your back.

3) Figure out who some of the most well liked guys in the fraternity are, watch them, learn from them. Emulate (not imitate) and build on the things they say and do.

4) Be confident, but not cocky.

5) Careful on the drinking and such. Start off in smaller groups so you can get the hang of it. Once you know how much you can tolerate, then you can start drinking in larger groups and start letting lose.

6) Chicks are really starting to dig nerds, as long as your cool about it. Embrace it, just don't go overboard with it.

BTW, your obviously not truly an introvert, otherwise you probably would be having the urges to change. You prolly just went to some shitty high school with shitty people. College is a great time to really find yourself, and be yourself.

I hope some of these words will help, and if you wanna talk more, let me know. Hell, I love road trips, I'll come drink and party with a hacker anytime.

Curious, who did you pledge?

</comment><comment><USER34> I joined a small fraternity (or student association as they are called in the Netherlands) relatively late in my course. If I regret anything, it is not joining earlier.

It is great fun, and there is a lot in terms of social skills, working in groups, and fulfilling roles, that you will learn along the way. Don't worry about making a fool of yourself, because as long as you do it with a smile (and say sorry where due), people will like you for it :-) Drinking before you do this will also help :-)

And about making your pick: I'd go for a smaller one (~ 200 members), that you feel at home at. The people there will most likely be more diverse and welcoming.

I went through a (moderate) hazing, and even that is not too bad, as long as you remember that it is a game, and that it will only last for a specific amount of time. Running away is the only mistake you can make.

</comment><comment><USER35> I was in a fraternity in college and definitely one of the geekier members. I felt it really helped my interpersonal skills a lot, and I made a lot of really great friends in the process. The best advice I can give is not to worry about catching up socially or feeling comfortable with large groups right off the bat--these things won't necessarily come quickly or naturally. I would suggest figuring out who in the fraternity you get along with and work on forming friendships with those individuals. Just try to make friends with the people you like and the rest should follow naturally. That said, if there is no one in the fraternity you would like to be friends with, then you probably should consider other social options.

</comment><comment><USER36> I have been an extroverted kid, then became big time shy and timid as a teen and now getting out of it.

From experience and observation, I would say, you being shy and timid so far doesn't mean you have to be like that forever or you will be like that forever.

Yes, you can definitely improve, there is no magic pill, just get yourself into social situations with crowds, try to open out and learn from errors, you may stumble sometimes, you may embarrass yourself sometimes, but none of them are going to kill you.

You can even use your embarrassment as funny stories later.

But don't wait to work on your social skills and then pledge, use this exposure itself as a tool to increase your social quotient.

Make and surround yourself with some understanding friends but relatively more extroverted people. It can help.

Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER37> "But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on."

Here's the thing you have to understand: the ideas of introversion and extraversion that you hear are usually a bit of an oversimplification. _Everyone_ has an introverted and extraverted side. It's just that one of them is always dominant.

With that in mind, there's nothing wrong with developing your extraverted side. But it sounds like you're trying to change from being an introvert to an extravert which is futile. I know that I (as an introvert) wouldn't be able to handle a fraternity: I'd simply be too drained by the experience.

Instead, learn to enjoy being introverted and engage your extraverted side from time to time. You'll be much better off that way.

</comment><comment><USER38> Do it. I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds bonds with your pledge brothers

I spent my first three years at the University of Florida not in a fraternity, spending most of my time doing homework. My classmates in engineering were incredibly boring people. My fourth year, I decided I couldn't do another year of it and I either needed to take some time off or make a radical change.

I joined a lower-mid fraternity(DTD - could have done "better" had I understood rush, but it was an excellent fit for me) and started enjoying college for the first time. I met my fiancee at a social there. My best memories of college are probably the time I "wasted" shooting the shit during lunch at my fraternity.

<comment><USER31> > I'm almost concerned that there's NO hazing... a small amount builds bonds > with your pledge brothers

After being in one that had a very stringent no hazing policy which they stuck to, I doubt that hazing would make me feel better about anyone in that group or my incoming class.

<comment><USER39> I think there is a definite difference between positive hazing and negative hazing. Positive to me would be dropping off the pledge class in the woods or something and having them find their way home. Negative would be sexual abuse. I think the former definitely builds bonds and is just a whole lot of fun.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> 1) Just join it's better jump in the water so to speak, because if you wait a semester more than likely things won't be very different from the way they are now.

2) The is no catching up so to speak. But the closest thing you can probably is to just show up to all the events, chapter meetings, socials with sororities, and things with your pledge class. Observe and thing will start to come naturally, and don't be afraid so speak up.

If I think of the errors people make is trying to hard. Don't try too hard, if you do people will pick up one that and it will back fire.

I wasn't always very social, joined a fraternity in college(which wasn't my natural inclination) and was for the first year the only engineer in my fraternity. My senior year there were three of us out of 80 guys. I was eventually VP of my fraternity. So things can totally work out.

Honestly I think joining a fraternity can be one of the best things you do. But it's a lot like schools, girls or cars, you need the one that's right for you. Just like startups or companies the culture can be very different. Yes I said culture. Pick one where there are generally good people, there are always asholes in every organization but is almost everyone a ashole or one or two.

Just because you join a fraternity you don't have to give in to peer pressure, stand up for what you believe in ultimately when it matters, because a lot of things don't matter.

If you want to socialize your self more don't pick a academic fraternity based on what I believe your goals that you described.

Look your a hacker mean your smart, mean you can definitely figure things out. Go with the flow, RELAX and don't make a big deal of things in your head, when things don't go as smooth as you like, because in all likely hood your the only one who noticed.

Trick number one, none of the other pledges know what their doing either even if they are social don't worry about it.

Don't worry about dancing especially, guys never know what they are doing especially in college.

If you want any more advice shoot me a email, find it in my profile

</comment><comment><USER41> I can tell you are going to go for it. This is good; don't wait a semester or whatever. As far as "catching up" socially, a lot of that is in your head (i.e., nobody is thinking "hey Introverty is a one-of-a-kind shy awkward loser"). Virtually every one of your freshmen classmates is socially unsure; that's college. People just deal with it differently: some by being drunken and obnoxious, others by never going outside. If you find you can never seem to warm up in social situations (that is, always finding them agonizing to the point of avoidance) you may want to look into anti-anxiety medications (or diet modifications) that will help your confidence.

</comment><comment><USER42> I'm sure many people won't read this bc it will be buried, but if you want to give a frat a shot you should. I graduated college about a year ago from UT, and it was the best time of my life. However, you don't need a frat. I had plenty of friends that were in frats, but I chose to party on my own, I feel like you meet more "genuine" people outside of the Greek system. I'd love to talk to you about how to be more social in college if you are up for it. Not sure if you can PM in HN, but look me up on reddit or facebook.

Take it easy and relax, don't stress about meeting people, you will come out of college with the best friends of your life.

</comment><comment><USER43> Go for it! And, no don't wait.. the harder your course load gets, the more excuses you'll make.

Some of my best friends today are guys I never would have met (or probably even liked, for that matter) without having shared the whole fraternity experience. And, I'm talking about the "boring" stuff when I say frat experience. Working on projects, figuring out creative ways to get 60+ guys to do something they didn't want to do, volunteering, etc., etc.

It's just like anything else, it's what you make of it, and what your trying to get out of it. I saw guys who were really good at all the social stuff, but never took a thing from the overall bigger experience and just kind of faded out. I also saw people who came in without all that (very shy, didn't know how to play games or whatever). They wanted to grow as a person, and gain experience being apart of a team, build leadership skills, and what not, they could and really did thrive, and became just amazing leaders later on.

To answer your questions though: Don't worry about it, and just be yourself! My fraternity would invite people over to hang out a few times or go watch some game or something before ever even talking about parties. This was a way to weed out people only interested in that. Not everyone just gets a bid to keep the organization alive like a few posters mentioned.

For your situation, (which isn't unusual, and probably everyone else is also worried about it) this would be an awesome time for you to "get in" and get to know guys in a non-party setting. Get to know people like that, and the social part will just fall into place. You'll be hanging out with new friends rather than being worried about being in a big crowd or drinking or whatever.

You got a lot of advice, so I won't go on. I do have things I didn't really like as well but overall it was a really great experience. E-mail me if you want more, there's a pretty good movie I can recommend that is the most "right on" portrayal of Greek life, and the lead character is some guy without any social skills who is concerned about the same things you are. (If you watch though, don't ever tell your brothers because they will make fun of you. However, always, always, be trying to figure out a way to bring it up in conversations with girls..)

</comment><comment><USER44> I had the same urge. I had been an introverted hacker all through high school, and when I went to college wanted a change. So I joined a fraternity.

It didn't work out. The frat guys were cool, but they did stuff you would expect frat guys to do. And after a few weeks of it, I got really really bored. The parties were somewhat fun but only for the drinking. Not a lot of interesting conversation to be had.

After a month, I bailed and switched over to the dorms. Can tell you I was much happier there, hanging with people who I had something in common with.

</comment><comment><USER45> I would say go for it. To catch up socially, just go to a lot of parties and talk to people, but don't try too hard, its OK to be less talkative in your first few parties, but don't avoid interaction either.

In a frat some guys will like to bust your balls and you will have to come up with quick responses. Don't worry about responding eloquently, you will get better over time. But make sure you don't laugh it off, agree, or self- deprecate...bust their balls back. It is all in good fun. This is how your social skills will improve.

<comment><USER46> Busting balls is a social skill?

<comment><USER29> You are a lady I presume?

Actually I find ball busting a form of art. I know a couple of people that are so good at it that they actually sense your comfort level - and maneuver right below the treshold.

This is the kind of people you call when your bored - take them out and beg them to mock you!

Actually I find ball busting a human form of: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNvQ2AC23cg> . It's what young males do to learn about social cause/effect. I find it less damaging to one's personality to what young girls do to each other.

<comment><USER46> Mocking is fine. But is there actually content to those fraternities? Any shared interest? Or is it just people hanging out, binge drinking? (Oh, the American drinking age.)

I am not from the US. Your presumption about my gender is wrong.

<comment><USER29> I have no idea - I'm not from US.

I'm an extreme athlete - and I'm in a circle of "jocks" (most extreme athletes are like that), so I understand how this kind of "young male" groups work and what dynamics are involved.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Wow a lot of good responses here.

One thing I didn't see though is that most fraternities assign you a "big brother" as a sort of mentor and helper through your pledge process. Hopefully you have (or will get) a Big Brother who you can ask for advice and direction through the process.

The rest of it will come naturally if it's what you really want. Don't get too hung up on the details, just let yourself actually enjoy the experience. If you do, I'm sure you will learn a lot, teach a lot, and make friends for life.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'm another introverted engineer who was in a fraternity in college and lived to talk about it.

Much more important than your social skills being up to par is whether you think you'll get along with the other guys in your pledge class, and the rest of the fraternity. They will become some of your best friends, so if you hate them then don't do it.

Which college and/or fraternity, if you don't mind me asking?

</comment><comment><USER3> My advice is to go for it. At worst, you'll have a story to tell a few years later. Or you can make a few friends. Either way, it'll likely have some sort of positive outcome.

Personally, I didn't join a frat. Not for me. But, I know a few people who did -- and they've had good things to say. Maybe not about the rush, but about everything else afterwards.

<comment><USER31> Rush is one of the most clearly valuable exercises in sales and getting people to like you that you will ever do. If you join a fraternity, you end up being on the other side of it 3-12 other times (depends on how often your school rushes).

I'll tell you this, smalltalk with strangers while trying to sell something is _so_ easy after the approximately 50 nights of rush I did during college, trying to sell people on an organization while chatting for hours.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Shop for a fraternity wisely. How well you respect and enjoy being around the guys is far more important than the fraternity's social status on campus! I think that is the most important thing to remember.

</comment><comment><USER49> Since we're offering advice, here's mine: Run away!

</comment><comment><USER50> go build facebook.

</comment><comment><USER51> just get drunk. The alcohol will do the rest.

</comment><comment><USER52> It really depends on the frat. If it is a frat that is oriented around academic excellence (are there any of those?) then don't worry... just being in the frat will help you in this regard.

I think the secret for this whole process is this: Learn to not care about being humiliated. Humiliate yourself, in fact. IF they give you a chance to tell your most embarassing story, do it. And try to do it well. By doing so they will know that the story can't really be used against you, and that you have the guts to tell it.

The trick is, people are naturally shy and insecure. Frats and "hazing" are all about getting over that, in a typically hamfisted male-bonding sort of way.

If your conscious mind can take control, and if you can be super rational, you can excel socially. Most people your age do not know this, and are afraid. But if you have nothing to fear because you realize that what you're afraid of is really inconsequential, then this gives you immense power.

You can actually hack the frat knowing this.

The bully whose always picking on you? Well, he's doing so because he's insecure. In fact, he'll telegraph to you what he's insecure about in the nature of his picking on you.

Same thing with arrogance.

Shy guys? They'll be your best friends if you are nice to them.... you can buy a lot of loyalty with a little bit of niceness. (And loyalty is a valuable currency.)

for dealing with crowds, just pick one or two people to focus on-- initially anyone you've had any previous contact with. Don't be clingy, or follow them around, but don't try to relate to everyone.

If you walk into a room and know nobody, just walk up to the cutest girl and ask her name. That's it. If she doesn't start talkign to you, or looks nervous or makes an excuse then wait and see if anyone approaches you after a few minutes and if not, just find someone else and introduce yourself.

<comment><USER53> The sad thing about this post is why the idea of most fraternities is a complete turn off.

It's all about tricks and gaming people by being fake. I know they aren't all this way, I know they have benefits. I still see the same behaviors, too often.

<comment><USER54> Acting in a way that's unfamiliar and uncomfortable will always feel fake initially. If the OP wants to get out of his shell he'll have to be awkward and fake for a while.

Happily this will fade with time as he becomes more accustomed to acting that way.

<comment><USER53> I'm not talking about the getting over being shy. I'm talking about the over compensating that causes all of the ones-up-manship and degradation amongst members that I've seen.

I wouldn't knock any of the positive aspects of gaining some social skills...

<comment><USER31> I'd honestly say, in my experience, there were certainly a couple oneupsman type people, the vast majority weren't. And the dealing with the ones who were in something that mattered before getting a job with that exact sort of people, was a great bit of job training.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


CDC suggests vapers stop vaping as lung disease numbers rise - <AUTHOR> https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/06/cdc-suggests-vapers-stop-vaping-as-lung-disease-numbers-rise-1711143 <comment><USER2> In previous discussions relating to the matter I've seen a lot of talk about oil extracts, particularly the possibility that they are contaminated. Sketchy stuff like butane or worse being used, pesticide concerns, etc. Black-market cartridges and similar products.

Where that the problem, I wouldn't personally be concerned. However I developed pneumonia-like symptoms after vaporizing a great deal of ground cannabis flower, sold in Washington and marketed as organic. I suspect that the product I was consuming wasn't contaminated, and it was the 'unextracted' but nevertheless vaporized oils themselves which are responsible. My symptoms have been gradually but noticably subsiding ever since I quit a few weeks ago.

<comment><USER3> They use Vitamin E in order to get the extremely potent THC levels. On some cartridges they get 90% + which is crazy considering the most potent Marijuana in Bud form is like 25%

Apparently that is what the main issue is that when Vitamin E vaporizes and then cools it changes form and may be harmful.

It didn't appear to be in the flavored Nicotine juices, only in the Marijuana concentrates.

Source:

[https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2019/2019-09-05_vap...](https://www.health.ny.gov/press/releases/2019/2019-09-05_vaping.htm)

Products to avoid:

[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nysdoh/sets/72157710703391248/](https://www.flickr.com/photos/nysdoh/sets/72157710703391248/)

<comment><USER2> That may well be part of the problem, but I don't think that's the full story. I was buying bud and grinding it myself.</comment></comment></comment>


Parents with children forced to do school at home are drinking more - <AUTHOR> https://theconversation.com/parents-with-children-forced-to-do-school-at-home-are-drinking-more-143164 <comment><USER2> And in other news, water is wet. I'm sure people are doing all kinds of drugs more.

What else are you supposed to do?</comment>