Show HN vs. TechCrunch vs. Product Hunt: what's most effective to launch a product - <AUTHOR> http://blog.frontapp.com/hacker-news-techcrunch-and-product-hunt-which-is-most-effective-to-launch-your-product-2/ <comment><USER2> Worth noting is that this was essentially number one on product hunt, above all other items.

Meaning, the product hunt results shown are the absolute best result you could hope for and most users will receive a far smaller amount of visits. PH gets a bit of hype because its invite only and people assume it has a big impact, but for most folk it would be much more impactful for their launch to even be on a smaller tech blog like Read/write or recode.

For the average person who gets on PH and gets the normal amount of upvotes (around 10-20 ) you can expect a blistering 250-500 visits. You would get more traction just posting a comment in a HN article. PH seems more powerful because its invite only and has tons of hype around it, but it does not deliver on results yet.

Surprised that HN numbers were so high, but not surprised that Techcrunch was number one. They still have a great share of the market when it comes to initial exposure.

<comment><USER3> A good rule of thumb with Hacker News is that you get 90-100 unique visitors for every upvote on a post given that it hits the front page. (as someone whose blog has hit the top of HN multiple times, I can attest to this)

The app received 6100 hits with 76 HN points, so that's a good estimate.

I'm not a fan of Product Hunt because it's an echo chamber personified. It's what happened to Quora, and I don't think that strategy will work twice.

<comment><USER4> I mod /r/SideProject, which is a subreddit similar to Product Hunt. Do you have any recommendations on how to prevent the subreddit from turning into an echo chamber?

[http://www.reddit.com/r/sideproject](http://www.reddit.com/r/sideproject)

<comment><USER5> Have you thought about joining forces w/ /r/producthunt and/or /r/startups?

<comment><USER4> /r/startups and /r/sideproject currently have linkbacks to each other. Are there any other ways you would suggest?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The most important lesson to learn from this successful "launch" is that they iterated on their product for _seven months_ of beta before officially launching it. How often do you see "Show HN's" of half-finished side projects with no actual customers? All the time. And the feedback is rarely good. Even if it is, the percent of qualified leads will likely be drastically lower than if you release a refined product, since people will quickly realize its rough state and promptly forget about your product.

The lesson is here to chillllll. Wait. Hold on. You don't need to "launch" your product as soon as v1 is deployed to Heroku. HN, product hunt, and Techcrunch will still be here in seven months. Don't waste your window of opportunity for "launching" by announcing an extremely rough, underdeveloped product. Hold out until you have customer feedback and have refined it sufficiently. Then, the leads you get will be infinitely more valuable.

<comment><USER7> I know you're talking about product launches, but you reminded me of something I've been wanting to clarify about Show HN. I hope it's ok if I share it here. It's not exactly off-topic, since Show HN is definitely for product launches—but it's for other things too.

The way Show HN has evolved over the years, the bar for it is naturally low. Show HN is for something you've made that other people can try out and talk with you about in the thread. That can be anything from a first project or weekend hack to a feedback-honed product like you've described above. The only rules are (a) you made it and (b) it works.

By "it works" I mean that it isn't a landing page or an email signup or a fundraiser, but rather something other people can play with and give feedback and ask questions about. That definitely includes new products, but also other things. Who knows what people might come up with! It just has to be interesting.

A risk with setting the bar too high is that some users will feel like contributing isn't for them. We want to avoid that. There are many talented people who maybe haven't done anything of their own yet, or haven't yet shared what they've done, or who suffer from that curse of our field, impostor syndrome. It's painfully easy to look at the polished work of others and think, "I could never do that". One reason we want Show HN to be welcoming to all levels of work is so there will be plenty of examples where people think, "I could do that". Not as in "meh, that's nothing," but in the DIY spirit of "hey, me too".

But the main reason is that many kinds of things—including seemingly trivial things—can be interesting. There's a secret relationship between the high and the low. They thrive together.

Masterful paintings are wonderful but first sketches are interesting too, especially in a workshop or a studio, which is the kind of place we want HN to be. Besides, first sketches have a way of turning into something masterful later. Most won't, but some will, and we love it when HN helps that happen.

<comment><USER8> Would you guys consider adding /show like you have /ask?

Show HN is best HN.

<comment><USER7> I've emailed you. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> My product (www.machete.io) has been on both HN and PH in the past week. Its hard to measure HN because rel=nofollow => no referrer in google analytics. Also, our HN post wasn't specifically about our product, but rather a visualization of seed funding by accelerators (machete lets you easily create interactive pivot charts). PH was more focused specifically about machete.

HN: ~10K sessions, 293 requests for beta access, on a Tuesday+Wednesday

PH: ~1800 sessions, 495 requests for beta access, on a Friday+Saturday

I have a very hard time separating out HN's impact long term because of the no referrer, PH doesn't do that and from last friday to tonight (wednesday), we've gotten a total of 2,687 visitors from PH and 709 signups (yes, a 27% conversion rate). We got even more indirect signups from PH via tweets that I don't think we would have gotten otherwise.

I don't know how things would have been different if my HN post was specifically geared at telling HN about Machete and our data visualizations instead of just a sample visualization we made. Had tons of PH readers email me asking about specific features, if we were looking for funding and when they could actually get into the beta. Didn't really have that at all with HN. Although I would say that we had equal numbers of VCs from HN and PH sign up (assuming they didn't use their gmail account)

<comment><USER10> A bit off-topic, but it's not the "nofollow" that leaves you with no referrer in analytics, it's SSL.

HN forces HTTPS and your page is HTTP. The browser never sends a referrer when you follow a link from an encrypted site to an unencrypted site, so you can loose quite a bit of data in analytics by not using HTTPS since more and more inbound links will be from encrypted traffic.

Add HTTPS to www.machete.io and you'll get better data.

<comment><USER9> ahh.... wow. I knew that google was going to stop sending referrer info on https, but I thought that was some how optional and not the default. Thank you very much for the info, I'll have to go find a cheap cert.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Are your customers likely to be other startups or related companies? If not, then probably none of the above. "Wherever your customers hang out" is the right answer.

<comment><USER12> Yes, this can't be emphasized enough!

For instance, I've had LiberWriter on the front page a few times, and it basically does not convert, at all. Most people here can make their own eBooks without problems. Our target market are self-published authors who are not at all technical and need some help.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've found HN to be a high quality community. There is a higher concentration of people that can give you meaningful feedback when you post your product under a Show HN. Product Hunt on the other hand seems to get you really useless feedback. Product hunt just feels like it belongs to a clique, is way too hyped up and lacks substance .

To be fair, I do think product hunt brings in a tiny amount of traffic.

<comment><USER14> We have a long way to go to reach HN-level numbers but I think we're doing OK, considering Product Hunt's been around for ~8 months. I shared more numbers earlier in this thread here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7981057](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7981057)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Above all I enjoy the diversity and intellect of the perspectives within HN comments. It's truly a special place with a high caliber of valuable exchange.

Except for the few startups that consider tech power users as their demographic, I think it's naive and counterproductive for many of them to put so much time into getting their links on these sites. If they put the same effort into getting their product in front of their actual customers they would stand to benefit much more.

</comment><comment><USER16> It depend on what you want.

HN/TC/... are good to show a new product to people that want to see new products. Thats it.

That did not mean that you get customers or a wider audience.

One year ago i launch [http://apidocjs.com](http://apidocjs.com) (OpenSource for RESTful API documentation), i show it to HN and got 2.500 Visitors in one day (yeah!), but the next days nearly zero.

Further development and step by step more users find their way to apiDoc -> organic growth.

</comment><comment><USER17> Just like to add my two cents.

I'm the little guy in the story. 300 followers on twitter, only just starting to develop a name for myself.

I launched theNews ios ([http://bit.ly/thenews-ios](http://bit.ly/thenews- ios)) recently which basically lets you read Hacker News & designer news in one app.

You'd think that would go down well in HN but nope, it faded into the bowels of HN & im not surprised. There is so much content due to how "open" it is.

Meanwhile people auctually took notice of my app on PH & DN because u dont't entirely need points to be relevant due to the moderate number of submissions. Frankly a better system for the little guy.

Show HN has its place for hacks & product launches while PH is like a brilliant way to launch your product & get feedback from amazing people that you look up to

& i don't think PH is tryna be like Show HN, it's doing its own thing. giving its own spin on Show HN.

All communities can't be open & frnakly the number of products on PH is already overwhelming at its current amount & with more its only gonna get more where it just becomes impossible to keep up. Thats probably the biggest challenge PH faces.

it's a nice alternative to Show HN & will shine in a different way.

</comment><comment><USER18> It seems Product Hunt is closed to most submitters... how did you post there? Did you score an invite?

<comment><USER14> As previously mentioned in this HN thread, we'll be opening posting to everyone to submit products for review by the community (not everything can hit the homepage or it will get too noisy with the current design) in addition to a recommendation/invite system so that the community can refer others.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Fun, but how many products have actually "made it" from such "launches"? I think you get a small bump from "da geeks" and that's all.

</comment><comment><USER20> A "statistical analysis" with one sample product is certainly enough to tell you what platform is most effective to launch it. /s

</comment><comment><USER21> The Product Hunt results for sign ups, leads, and shares are skewed. You're pointing at a completely different part of your product (mobile).

You should be pointing at the same link across all three sources before you compare the three sources. Note: fixing this does not affect the number of links clicked, of course, but it could significantly change the number of sign ups, etc.

</comment><comment><USER22> I've submitted my site to Show HN (last week) and to Product Hunt (well you can't actually submit but I sent an email to Ryan Hoover) and haven't been able to get any clicks from either of them because the Show HN link wasn't promoted and PH haven't added us yet. TechCrunch just ignore my emails. So your mileage may vary!

</comment><comment><USER23> For business-related products, it's also helpful to gain exposure in the industries you're in. For instance, if you're launching a product that might serve both the healthcare and legal sectors, any type of exposure there not only proves legitimacy for potential customers, but to investors as well.

</comment><comment><USER24> Really cool to see how far Product Hunt has come, rivaling TC on visit traffic and HN on signups /leads

</comment><comment><USER25> We had similar numbers with Planleaf, minus TC. Except our conversion rates were quite high, but that lends itself to the product more than anything. Great job with Front App. 7 months is a long time. I think StatusPage.io waited a long time before doing their Show HN as well.

</comment><comment><USER26> Next please teach us how to launch and make TC, the front page of HN and the top of PH.

Most people struggle to get even get one of those. The trifecta is quit impressive.

</comment><comment><USER27> Our product ([http://grasswire.com](http://grasswire.com)) was recently also on the top of HackerNews and ProductHunt (Show HN:[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7954327](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7954327) , ProductHunt: [http://www.producthunt.com/posts/grasswire](http://www.producthunt.com/posts/grasswire)). No TechCrunch writeup yet.

Not all posts are created equal, so it's important to note that we never hit #1 on HN to my knowledge. We were #2-4 for the majority of the day, and fell off the front page about 24 hours later. We also had a blip where we were removed before we could show our post wasn't a dupe, so we lost an hour there.

HackerNews Traffic:

HackerNews day 1: 5,750

HackerNews day 2: 1,115

HackerNews day 3: negligible

HackerNews Total: 6865

HackerNews was posted on a fairly slow Friday, so it's probably different if you post Monday morning. We had 82 total upvotes on HN.

On ProductHunt we were/are one of the top products ever, so I have no idea what it's like if you don't get a lot of upvotes. We also posted to ProductHunt on Monday morning.

ProductHunt Traffic:

ProductHunt day 1: 1,273

ProductHunt day 2: 465

ProductHunt email: 1,114 (this is rough, because I only have it as "direct" traffic, so I'm estimating what our direct traffic is on a given day and subtracting that out. But we're new enough this could be off).

ProductHunt day 3: 247

ProductHunt total: 3,126

Day 3 is today, so I don't have much data, but ProductHunt certainly has a slower drop if you're going to die. Though, again, that's probably only true if you have 150+ upvotes on ProductHunt.

But that's quantitative. Let's go qualitative.

As far as the feedback we got, HN was 10x better. Almost all of the people commenting on PH work for PH, so I assume there's a lot of dog fooding going on. It's a very young product, so it's understandable, but I can't see that growing unless there's more happening there.

Some negatives of ProductHunt are that I've had people go through and tweet at _everybody_ who voted for us (including me) because your twitter account is publicly listed when you vote. That's kind of annoying.

Overall, why not post to PH? But it has a _lot_ of ground to make up before it catches HN. Anecdotally, I check every single "Show HN." I've maybe clicked on two or three things on ProductHunt, mostly because I don't care enough about other people's products to seek the site out specifically.

<comment><USER5> Thanks for posting. I saw grasswire when it was posted on PH and immediately took to it; I think you're doing a great job with "visual news".

Re your question:

 _Overall, why not post to PH?_

Because, for the most part, you can't. You have to be invited to do so, making it (near?) impossible to get on unless you know someone who knows someone who already has access.

What do you mean by "Almost all of the people commenting on PH _work for PH_ "?

<comment><USER14> I (founder of PH) have the same question re: "Almost all of the people commenting on PH work for PH." You can see the list of people that are or have worked on Product Hunt on our about page ([http://www.producthunt.com/about](http://www.producthunt.com/about)). ~95% of the posts and comments are submitted by people that don't "work" for Product Hunt.

aagha is correct in that we've limited the number of people that can post. If anyone could post a product to the homepage, it would be overrun with self- promotion and frankly noise, with the way it's currently designed. We're working on a recommendation system so that people in the community can refer others to join the conversation in addition to a new posting flow that allows anyone to submit a product to be curated by the community.

It's early days and I empathize with the frustration of not being able to comment or post on the site. We're working hard to open it to a larger audience.

<comment><USER5> _We 're working on a recommendation system so that people in the community can refer others to join the conversation_

Don't you this just perpetuates the "bros" ethos? How likely is a solo entrepreneur in his mid-40's working on a web startup and plugged into the Digital Valley but unable to attend meetups in the city to get an email from someone in the community of your friends and their friends? I think the chances are low.

Perhaps you should allow people to request a membership. I tried to submit a cool startup I found to PH last week and quickly determined I couldn't. Before that, I'd been checking PH ever morning to see what was cool and out there. After not being able to participate in the community (or the conversation--you could easily moderate comments) its basically fallen off my radar and I've stopped visiting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> More people visited is not sure bring good effect. It influence by other factors. So complicated.

</comment><comment><USER29> Its about how big the STORY you make!

</comment><comment><USER30> Betalist.

</comment><comment><USER31> Build a good product.

</comment><comment><USER7> We changed the url from [http://fr.slideshare.net/Frontapp/hn-vs-tc-vs- ph](http://fr.slideshare.net/Frontapp/hn-vs-tc-vs-ph).</comment>


Reserving your Model 3 - <AUTHOR> https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/reserving-model-3/ <comment><USER2> Reading the fine print of the reservations, I am a little surprised to see how non-binding the $1000 reservations are. A few tidbits: It can be canceled by you (this is a good thing) or Tesla (not great...), it might be an input to your "order on the list", but the final order is only decided by Tesla, etc. If it can be canceled by anyone at any time for any reason, and doesn't necessarily bind your "place in line", what is the point of the $1000 reservation?

<comment><USER3> I made a $5000 reservation for the Model S long before it was available, and they told me a number that was my place in line, and that they'd contact me when it's my turn. I chose the color and everything.

It's funny because they still haven't contacted me, nor did they contact anyone else I know who placed the reservation. Worked out fine for me, I've been mostly in Japan, and now that I'll be back in Seattle I'm planning to contact them and really curious what they say.

Everyone else got their car eventually but had to call and check multiple times. To each person they apologized and said it must be an oversight.

The whole thing leaves a really bad impression of the company. I wonder how they account for the money on their books over the past four years.

<comment><USER4> The Model S has been out for a long time now, it looks as if that's a pretty bad way to deal with downpayments.

Here in nl the law is pretty strict about downpayments, if you accept a downpayment you _have_ to keep the item in reserve for that particular customer. That's easy enough to check with a vehicle (they have a VIN after all).

At a minimum you should get some compensation for financing them to the tune of $5K over a longer period of time.

<comment><USER5> Tens of thousands of people have successfully used Tesla's reservation system.

I'd bet that if Tesla took reservations in NL at all that they complied with the local law. For example, in the US it doesn't turn into a firm order until you go through the final feature pick right before production. Before that either side can cancel for any reason. That might make it not a downpayment in NL.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Seems safe to predict that unless you're waiting in line on the West Coast on 3/31, you won't be getting the full $7500 tax credit. They've sold about 50k Teslas so far (Roadster/S/X); the credit goes to 50% for 2 quarters after they hit 200k total vehicles from one manufacturer sold.

I'd be expecting another 50-100k S/X delivered between now and 2017-12-31 when I predict Model 3 will start shipping. Probably every Model 3 shipped in 2018 will be to either an existing Tesla owner, or someone who does an in-person deposit on 3/31\. I would be amazed if they don't do 200k units on 4/1 alone.

<comment><USER7> What's this? Do consumers have to check their purchase ordinal to know whether they get the credit? That's a horribly unfair and overcomplicated tax structure.

<comment><USER6> The deposit doesn't even count as purchase, so you don't particularly know. Plus the deposits aren't 100% deliveries -- people ahead of you might drop out.

Seems worth sitting outside with an iPad for a few hours in a week to maximize my chances of $7500 vs. $3750 in 2 years, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > When production begins, we will begin deliveries in North America starting > on the West Coast, moving east.

If California is getting them in late 2017, it'll be years before I might be able to buy one in Pennsylvania. Bummer.

Looks like it'll be a Chevrolet Bolt replacing my Leaf later this year. Same price tag, same 200+ mile range, can't be too upset.

<comment><USER9> We're considering pulling the trigger on a Leaf, but have theoretical anxiety... How's it been for you?

I loved the test drive and love the idea of going electric for 95% of my use (and possibly just renting a car for longer road trips).

<comment><USER8> I love the car. It's fun to drive -- smooth, quiet, and zippy acceleration from a stop. I haven't paid for gas or any kind of maintenance in over a year.

But I would definitely not buy a Leaf unless you're a 2-car home and have something else for a backup and long trips.

If you have any fun with your car, as opposed to driving in eco-mode all the time, never accelerating hard, coasting down hills... you won't get the rated range. If it's cold out, you won't get the rated range. If you like to blast the heat and A/C, you won't get the rated range. Which means you will limit yourself to a 20-30 mile radius to feel safe, which is much less than the 80-100+ miles the sticker says you'll get.

The battery also degrades pretty fast. You can't tell what you're buying used unless you buy a copy of Leaf Spy Pro for your phone and hook up a bluetooth OBDII scanner to the car to actually find out how much of its battery life is usable. My 2012 model has 16kWh of the original 24kWh available for driving, though the dashboard shows 11/12 battery life "pips" remaining. That means I get a max of 70-some miles driving conservatively in good weather. It'll only go down the longer I own it, which is why I'm looking forward to that Chevy Bolt, hopefully before winter when my usable range drops even more.

<comment><USER9> Glad you love it. I work from home and commute sometimes to downtown DC (about 25 mi each way). So I am thinking the 107 mi would be more than enough even being conservative and expecting a 60mi range.

But from what you're saying, it sounds even worse!

We really aren't expecting to do any road trips with the car, instead opting to rent a car for that occasional weekend trip. Seems like a good balance. Why choose a car for the 3 road trips you take every year?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've wanted a Tesla for a while, but being someone who repairs and maintains their own car, I can't see myself ever buying one as they seem heavily opposed to allowing anyone but themselves to work on their cars.

<comment><USER11> You should probably not get a new car at all, they are all going that way. With electric/hybrid cars it's probably a good idea, there's a _lot_ of current in those batteries.

<comment><USER12> Yup, last I checked the P90DL was around 500kW(!) at peak, that's 1,250A @ 400V.

Someone accidentally steps on the brake pedal while your near a HV line(400V can jump a bit) to one of the two motors? Yikes.

<comment><USER13> The Tesla has contactors in the battery that isolate the HV and a facility to lock them out - and they'd better be reliable even if someone accidentally steps on the brake pedal and the car's in pieces, because rescue workers have to rely on them in order to avoid electrocution when extracting people from crashed and mangled Teslas.

Besides, a lot of the failures are in low-voltage systems like door handles that are covered by a much shorter warranty than the drivetrain and HV.

<comment><USER14> There are two wiring loops you can cut which will cut power to those contactors and isolate the battery. If the car is sufficiently mangled, the first responders' first order of business will be to cut those loops, which will render the car safe no matter what controls people activate.

But if you haven't cut those loops and you're taking the car apart and haven't isolated things yourself, there's nothing preventing the car from closing those contactors and energizing the high-voltage system while you're elbow- deep in it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The "agreement" is a joke. If you give them your money next week, you may or may not get a place in line that may or may not exist, to eventually maybe or maybe not buy a car. The date and time which you may or may not make a decision to possibly but probably not buy a car may or may not be known, and the price may or may not be what you think it is.

<comment><USER16> I think most agreements look as bad as this one. I bought an original, upgraded for auto drive and will probably get in line for this to replace my wife's car. Since they struggle to make enough to meet demand, they seem to make many of the same car with the same options at a time, delaying various combinations of features. They already announced that people who previously bought one would have a priority in the queue this time. I'm pretty certain I'll put my 1k in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I am so nervous/excited for this reveal! I can only imagine the butterflies and sleepless nights for the actual team involved. Good luck everyone!

</comment><comment><USER6> I'll go to a Bay Area store to put in my reservation on 3/31\. Not really feeling up to camping out overnight, but showing up at 0600 or so seems reasonable (since they open up at 1000).

Now...which store? Burlingame is probably the most convenient for me, but driving down to the Fremont factory seems maybe more appropriate. Not sure which locations would be most amenable to "arrive hours early" \-- probably not Stanford Shopping Center. There's a 24h Safeway a couple blocks from the El Camino Palo Alto location.

It would be entertaining to have some kind of HN meetup in line at a Tesla store.

<comment><USER18> There is also a nice one at Santana Row.

<comment><USER19> And near wolfe and el camino intersection in Sunnyvale

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> On one hand, I really want a Tesla car. On the other hand, I live in a city and take electric busses and trains everywhere.

Maybe I'll trade in my 15 year old SUV for a Tesla Model 3 when they hit used car lots.

<comment><USER21> Consider this guy's opinion. The used Tesla market might not look like it does for other cars.

[http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building- throwaw...](http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2016/03/is-tesla-building-throwaway- cars.html)

<comment><USER22> Once there are enough Teslas, there will be aftermarket repair howtos. This is inevitable.

I guess you could argue that Tesla will try to do the Apple thing and not support older versions of devices, but 50000$ cars and 500$ phones are different beasts.

Generally speaking, highly integrated ICE cars are quickly approaching the complexity of Teslas anyway.

On the other hand, a tesla is basically 1-2 motors and a big battery bank. No engines, crankshafts, pistons, sparkplugs, radiators, alternators, exhaust pipes and sensors, catalytic convertors, oil pans... I still have some faith that the fundamental simplification of electric drivetrains will result in longer lived vehicles.

<comment><USER21> I'm not sure I agree here.

A car is network of serious computing, including proprietary API's, busses, and signed firmware. You might change the tires yourself but you won't be putting a third-party sensor in there. The talk of bricking your car is no joke.

See also John Deere giving its farmer customers a hard time about self servicing big tractors.

The only question is, does the customer have the right to tinker?

<comment><USER23> It isn't even a right to tinker. Do you _actually_ own the car - which means you should have the right to do whatever you want to it - or are you borrowing it from the manufacturer?

If Tesla keeps their cars as draconian DRMed as they have been, then you never actually own the Tesla in the exact same thought process that you don't own an iphone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Is there, somewhere on that page, information about the price of the car we can make the reservation? Are they taking reservations without stating the car price at all?

<comment><USER25> It was stated a while ago that the pricing would be $35,000 before incentives. They probably don't want to say a specific price if incentives aren't nailed down yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Wouldn't it make more sense for non-Tesla owners to get priority in the queue? Seems like a better way to get more people driving EVs.

<comment><USER14> That would be a pretty dick move. "You gave us a ton of money buying a ridiculously expensive car, and as your reward you have to wait longer than people who we've never even seen before."

I could see just not giving priority. As it is, they're rewarding customer loyalty, which is a pretty common thing to do.

<comment><USER27> But the model 3 is supposedly the 'affordable' one, so prioritizing rich folks who already own one of the pricey models seems a little backwards.

<comment><USER14> Well, either rich people want "the affordable one" or they don't. If they do, why not reward their loyalty? If they don't, then it doesn't affect anything.

In any case, I don't think it'll be a major factor. All current owners already have a car, after all. How many need another one? Out of ~120,000 current owners, how many head-of-line orders will that translate into? I'd think it would just be a couple thousand, which won't make a particularly big difference in the timeline for others.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Is there any chance that putting the $1,000 USD down for reservation will qualify as purchasing the EV and getting the EV Tax Credits before they are all used up? Or is the Model 3 most likely going to be out of contention for those credits as the Model S is well over 100,000 units sold already.

<comment><USER29> Only sales in the US count, and the Model S is not over 100k here. Most estimates I've seen agree that the tax incentive probably won't go into phase- out mode until the latter half of 2018.

<comment><USER28> Awesome, thanks for the clarification on US only, I was not aware of that part.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Will Tesla put out the specs and pricing details before the Reservation date? It would be fair, because unlike their other two products, Model 3 has a competing product, and it would be only fair for TSLA to give more details so the consumer can compare it with Bolt EV and choose what fits them.

<comment><USER6> It's a refundable $1k deposit. Seems like there's very little risk.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Any idea what forms of payment they'll accept for a deposit? Will a debit or credit card work?

<comment><USER32> Yes.

Edit: they also accept PayPal, of course. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Any idea on the cost yet? Is this still expected to be around the $35k range?

<comment><USER14> Yes, they've said that it'll start at $35,000. Exactly what you get for that is still unknown, besides some sort of car with a 200 mile range. It's a pretty safe bet that things like autopilot will be an option on top of that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> So does anyone know , even though the event is at - March 31st at 8:30pm PT... Are they accepting reservations that morning the day of ? Or will they accept reservations after the announcement ?

</comment><comment><USER35> Is it the height of a normal car yet? :/ I am kind of tall (6'3.5"), and it is comical just how poorly I fit in a Tesla. I can sit more safely (which is the correct word, not "comfortably": my head bangs up against part of the ceiling in a way where even a very minor collision would cause me serious head trauma) in a Miata. I would love to get a Tesla, particularly this new cheaper one (as I can't really justify >$100k; I waste a ton of money on my current car scheme, but it is still cheaper than a Tesla), but it feels like trying to buy a trendy shirt and realizing they don't bother making it in my size as my size simply isn't as trendy as their shirt :/.

<comment><USER36> That's odd, I am nearly as tall as you and had no problem fitting in a Tesla (the fact it didn't cross my mind probably means there was plenty of buffer space left).

<comment><USER35> I don't know what to tell you: this is an incredibly common complaint on Tesla forums, though "your mileage may vary" as people are proportioned in all sorts of different ways. Here is a thread that is particularly verbose and well- researched (showing comparisons to another car based on technical measurement specifications).

[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/will-the- model-3-be-...](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/will-the-model-3-be- better-built-for-taller-people.63066/)

Though that person claims to have managed to have found a "comfortable" position with the seat moved entirely back: that doesn't fix the safety issues. I can also feel comfortable, but if I rock my head even slightly to the left it slams into the frame of the car, as the only reason my head fits is because some of the models have a divot in the top of the car.

I have a friend with a Tesla S (who is a major major fan of the company) who adamantly didn't believe me until we finally had an opportunity to go out to his car and have me sit in the driver's seat: he shut up pretty quick ;P. (He had wanted me to drive us to our destination, so as to fall in love with the car, but instead I ended up in the passenger seat with the seat extremely reclined, feeling only slightly claustrophobic.)

<comment><USER37> This is almost funny. The reason I have a LEAF (see my post above) and not a Model S is because it doesn't fit _small_ people. Everything about that car seems to be built for the 6' tall person with no thought about those of us not that tall.

I'm 5'6\. My wife is 5'1\. When I test drove the Model S I found there was nearly 3' of foot room behind the driver seat. That doesn't really bother me, but it told me the car was made for taller people.

When my wife test drove the Model S, after adjusting the seat so she could reach the peddles, the drivers should belt went right across her neck. After 15 minutes of driving she had a noticeable red mark there. She was unhappy to say the least. We went to adjust the seat belt anchor to make the belt not cross her neck.

We were surprised that an $80,000 car doesn't have adjustable seat belt anchors. ($80K as we would have configured it)

The "salesperson" (are they called that?) in the Tesla store suggested we get some kind of cover for the shoulder belt to avoid it irritating my wife's neck. My wife was "you mean I need to jury-rig something to make this $80K car comfortable to drive?"

We've never bought expensive cars; a Honda minivan was the most we'd ever paid for a car. That was comfortable and cost 1/3 the Model S. My wanting to buy one was already stretching reasonable limits. The seat belt issue made the Model S a non-option as far as my wife was concerned.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> enahs-sf It would be cool if you could make your reservation by buying TSLA shares.

</comment><comment><USER38> The beauty of this (for them!) is that this seems to take away all the negotiation about pricing, terms and taking used cars in.

But aren't they leaving money on the table with such a long wait list? (Granted - creating artificial shortages can work if you have a monopoly)

<comment><USER11> > The beauty of this (for them!) is that this seems to take away all the > negotiation about pricing, terms and taking used cars in.

This is because they don't have a dealer network. If you don't like their price you can't go down the block and make an offer to the next dealer. Probably necessary because dealers normally make their money on maintenance and there just isn't much to do for Tesla vehicles.

<comment><USER39> > there just isn't much to do for Tesla vehicles

I'm all for Tesla, but I don't think this is true.[0]

[0]: [http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability- doesnt...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match- its-high-performance/) [1]: [http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100598_tesla- reliabilit...](http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100598_tesla-reliability- take-two-are-newer-owners-less-tolerant) [2]: [http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model- s-p85d-...](http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model- s-p85d-10000-mile-update-review) etc

<comment><USER11> Some warranty work to replace defects for new cars isn't the same as a reliable maintenance schedule for ICE vehicles.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> So few details on the car itself though...

<comment><USER14> Details will be discussed as part of the unveiling on the 31st.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I will go with the Chevy Bolt.

</comment><comment><USER42> It's a shame they didn't call it model E. But S3X is close enough. And now i take my head out of the gully

<comment><USER43> Ford has the trademark on 'Model E' \- they contacted Telsa when the name was floated and warned them off it.

Elon Musk has joked several times that 'Ford killed off SEX'</comment></comment>


How Flash changes the design of database storage engines - <AUTHOR> http://radar.oreilly.com/2014/08/how-flash-changes-the-design-of-database-storage-engines.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+oreilly%2Fradar%2Fatom+%28O%27Reilly+Radar%29

<comment><USER2> > Over the past decade, SSD drives (popularly known as Flash)

Does this mean popular _among datacenter folks_? Most of the time I hear "flash drive" (as opposed to SSD) it involves something with USB and a keychain hook, not an internal component.

<comment><USER3> Yes. I work at a flash storage company (XtremIO). No-one ever says "SSD"; it's always "flash".

"SSD" (out of context) refers to something you put in your laptop/desktop.</comment></comment>


Crontab requires a newline at the end of the file - <AUTHOR> https://serverfault.com/questions/230370/why-is-only-one-wget-command-working-in-my-crontab <comment><USER2> Indeed. A Unix text file without a final newline is an abomination and will cause trouble in all sorts of contexts.</comment>


Playing Minecraft at work? Connect Github's Hubot to your server - <AUTHOR> http://blog.minefold.com/post/15425926505/hubot-minecraft

<comment><USER2> What might interest HN readers the most is the (almost) complete implementation of the Minecraft protocol:

* [https://github.com/minefold/hubot-minecraft/blob/master/src/...](https://github.com/minefold/hubot-minecraft/blob/master/src/parser.coffee) * [https://github.com/minefold/hubot-minecraft/blob/master/src/...](https://github.com/minefold/hubot-minecraft/blob/master/src/packet.coffee)

If you've ever thought it would be cool to write a bot for Minecraft, this is a great starting point. At Minefold we regularly use our own Minecraft bots to do load testing and diagnosis of our servers.

</comment><comment><USER3> So for every bot you have to purchase a minecraft license to get a dedicated user+password?

Do you risk to get the user/bot banned by Mojang? usage violation etc?

<comment><AUTHOR> If you run your server in offline mode it won't validate the username with Mojang and you can add any number of bots. Just add this to your server.properties file: online-mode=false

I doubt Mojang have any sort of anti-bot policies. Individual servers can ban users though. But hopefully people are writing bots for fun and not war right? ;)</comment></comment>


Jack Dorsey's Advice To Nokia: "You Make Too Many Products. Focus On 3″ - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/26/jack-dorseys-advice-to-nokia-you-make-too-many-products-focus-on-3/ <comment><USER2> 1\. High end WP7 device - Lumia 800. It looks promising.

2\. MP3 Phone - An XpressMusic device. Some people don't care for data, and want a capable feature phone. Good camera, Awesome music interface. People have come to expect high-quality touchscreens - so if you plan on using a crappy resistive screen, don't. Build a slider with a comfortable hardware QWERTY instead.

3\. Phone for the developing world. Ultra durable, ultra cheap. This market is the fastest growing, and building a device which greatest fits their needs will encourage adoption.</comment>


Khan of Khan Academy at TED (video) - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTFEUsudhfs

<comment><USER4> I've heard countless people rave about Salman Khan and his teaching methods - both here and away from HN. The truth is, I had no idea why he and his teachings were such a big deal... _until now_. I had seen some of his videos before and read some of the articles about the Khan Academy, but had never given them my full attention. To me, it was just another guy with his own teaching methods.

But when I see him talk at TED, it makes perfect sense. Not only is he a superb speaker, he gets his points across clearly.

Probably the best point of all is this one:

      "What I do is I assign the lectures for homework and, what used to be
       homework, I now have the students doing in the classroom."

As radical as that may seem, this idea has TONS of potential. Do we really need teachers there in person if they are just lecturing? The real use of being there in person as a teacher is for interacting with the students. What better way to do that than by helping them with the work (i.e. homework) and letting the Khan Academy lecture when little interaction is needed.

I am definitely going to hop on the bandwagon now and join everyone else in following Khan while appreciating his pure genius. In fact, the best way to describe him is to combine all the great things people here on HN have to say about him:

      > He's amazing. (joshu)

      > I really do think Sal Khan will revolutionize teaching. (solarmist)

      > Hero material. (MikeCapone)

      > Future of education. (omfut)

      > Really wonderful reminder of what just one person can set in motion. (runevault)

      > Simply amazing that a guy armed only with a tablet and a microphone can have this
      much impact. (keiferski)

      > He is a big inspiration for anyone looking to change the world. (omfut)

The list could go on forever. And it's not every day you hear people talking about someone and their ideas in such a way like they are now about Khan and the Khan Academy.

 _If people are saying it is amazing, then there's a pretty good chance that it truly is amazing._

<comment><USER5> The Khan Academy is not _the_ future of education. Don't get me wrong, I think they're doing a superb job and I'd encourage people to contribute to their efforts. Khan is obviously a great presenter with a remarkable ability to explain complex concepts using a new medium. However, the future of education is closer to hacker culture than it is about new and better content delivery mechanisms. Let me explain.

First, I totally buy the argument that a YouTube video can be a better method of delivering content than a book or even, as Kahn says, a live teacher. However, learning is much more than that. Learning is about imagining, playing, creating, sharing and reflecting (Resnick 2007, PDF: <http://j.mp/gqnc6f>).

To say that learning math is about watching a video and drilling on some problem set, is like saying that learning Python is about doing a tutorial and solving some exercises. _Hackers know this well_. You don't really learn a programming language until you build some project, especially a personally meaningful one. Creating something not only helps you learn the language but also its community, culture, practices, how to ask questions and get feedback on your work.

Think about it, would you rather hire a developer that has finished some tutorials or one that has actually hacked some projects? The same logic applies to most other fields. Artists and scientists know this as well: you learn by doing in the social context of a community.

Unfortunately, schooling has taken the "hacking" away from learning and has focused on improving content delivery, artificial problem-solving and test- taking. Often using technology. I liked when he mentioned that the teachers have more time to mentor students. However, their mentoring is most likely still focused on the artificial and decontextualized approach of traditional schooling.

Initiatives like the Khan Academy will probably play a role in the future but to really improve education the system and the approaches should change. One should look at exemplar learning environments like the hacker communities or even the Brazilian Samba schools. Settings that are "real, socially cohesive and where experts and novices are learning" (Papert 1980, Google Books: <http://j.mp/dLNbGG>).

In 1971, Ivan Illich outlined an inspirational alternative educational environment where "the child grows up in a world of things, surrounded by people who serve as models for skills and values. He finds peers who challenge him to argue, to compete, to cooperate, and to understand; and if the child is lucky, he is exposed to confrontation or criticism by an experienced elder who really cares."

Illich said that the four resources learners need are "things, models, peers, and elders". In his 1971 vision, Illich said that "the operation of a peer- matching network would be simple. The user would identify himself by name and address and describe the activity for which he sought a peer. A computer would send him back the names and addresses of all those who had inserted the same description. It is amazing that such a simple utility has never been used on a broad scale for publicly valued activity"(<http://j.mp/hNUVV8>). Sounds familiar? When I read Illich, I think of HN, StackExchange, and the larger ecology of spaces that hackers have created around social learning. My hope is that these and other similar approaches scale up and get adopted more broadly along with resources like the Khan Academy, OCW and others.

<comment><USER6> I think you are missing the point here.

Learning math is not like learning programming. Math has a quantitative evaluation process.

The kind of scenarios you are talking about both have a quantitative and a qualitative evaluation process.

I.e. you can be creative in your programming and the "answers" but not so much in math.

Also I don't think Kahn Academy is in any opposition to Seymore Paperts "Mindstorms". In fact you could imagine the videos being used to teach children to get started before they go on to hack together their little programs.

What they have done is for the first time made a system that quantifies the learning process so that it benefits the student rather than the school.

Pretty significant if you ask me.

<comment><USER7> I disagree with you assertion on creativity in maths. Maths allows creativity and is very open ended. You can do things that are not required but are creative - leveraging identities and properties to vastly simplify a problem, reframing the problem to make it more tractable etc. And programming is very useful to learning maths. Any topic that requires some form of calculating to build familiarity will benefit greatly from playing by programming.

Consider complex numbers. You usually first meet them with imaginary numbers and polynomial equations. But they are extremely obtuse. But if you look at operations on them in terms of vectors, lateral extension of the reals to make the picture in terms of solvable polynomial equations complete, or in terms of polar coordinates, rotations, trigonometry, and e you start to get a fuller picture. But if you really want to get them you program a simple system (scaling and rotating triangles for example) that allows you to leverage all those properties. You build in the identities and operations. And then you experiment. Play with it. Play is vital to learning. With that, you get motivation and a fuller understanding than a mere that is just the way it is. With that deeper more intuitive understanding you are able to remember and internalize it better. Making the future topics easier but more importantly, developing the ability to draw connections rather than merely leaving each concept in isolation.

That is why maths is so hard. So much of it is completely divorced to how they were originated and completely unmotivated and magical. With no intuition future learning is further crippled, building apprehension via a negative feedback loop.

<comment><USER6> You are confusing learning math with the field of math.

Again I am a big proponent of Seymores work but that is not the point here.

The point is that Kahn Academy allows you to learn math in your own tempo and that is the future of education. That doesn't mean that other things wont be important too but to say that it's not the future of education is simply missing the greater point IMHO.

People who have never been able to understand it before now suddenly do. We don't all need to be math wizards.

<comment><USER7> I was arguing your assertion that maths is not creative, even in the basic level. I completely agree that non uniform pacing is a really great breakthrough and do not argue the efficacy of these videos. Nor their impact on the future of education. But saying there is no creativity in maths is the type of thing that hurts the education of the subject - with teachers punishing kids for doing things unlike the book says.

I also think, especially for learning kids maths, not to underestimate how powerful learning as playing is in motivating concepts. I do think such a thing done right, where you would replace a bunch of videos with one game would be even better than the videos as the future of education. As that type of active learning allows not just variable pacing but also variable exploration and creativity. And by building a repertoire of stories for concepts, it counters how alien and not straight forwardly relatable to real life experience more abstract maths is. A fact that makes learning maths hard.

As a first test of this idea I hope to someday make or see a game where kids program little battling bots and in the process learn concepts from high level physics and maths. as a side-effect. without realizing they are learning. I guess based on personal experiences, I feel there is still a class of kids that the khan academy style won't reach.

<comment><USER6> I think I know what you are getting at but I think we are talking about two different things.

That kids learn concepts from high level physics and maths does not mean they learn formal math.

I am not saying that they need to learn formal math (in fact there are plenty of arguments against spending so much time trying to teach kids any math)

But it's important to understand that if everyone have to learn concepts in their own way they will loos the ability to communicate with each other.

The ability to transfer metaphors from something we understand into the world of Mindstorms and through that develop conceptual understanding of various areas does not necessarily transcend into understanding of math.

It might though create something else and quite wonderful. But formal math it probably wont be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> After reading a few comments, I haven't seen this point made so I'm gonna go for it:

      > The traditional model, it penalizes you for experimentation and failure,
      > but does not expect mastery.
      > We encourage you to experiment [and fail], but we do expect mastery.

This, in my opinion, is the most potential ridden idea made by Khan. Today, middle schools is ~3 years, high school is 4 years, university is 4 years, etc.; we discretize learning into these rigid chunks of time - partially out of (deprecated) technical necessity - and in the process we isolate kids - <USER2> so called dumb kids. When Kahn showed that graph of a so called _dumb_ kids spending 2-3x as long on a single topic, only to resume the same learning rate as the _smart_ kids after they understood the foundational concept they were originally struggling with, it made me see how much potential there truly is in this system.

Imagine a world where the baseline level of education is produced by a Khan style system. Schooling wouldn't be as tractable (i.e., it might take 2 to 6 (or more) years to go through high school instead of a nice predictable 4), but everyone that would come out of said system would have the same (ideal) level of knowledge needed in order to move on to the next best thing (e.g., college, work, life's passion, etc.). There wouldn't be kids competing for GPA's or stuffing their resumes, and there wouldn't be kids who didn't know how to tie their shoes; there would be kids who KNOW calculus, kids who UNDERSTAND physics, and kids who GET American history. The variation would be in the idiosyncrasies of the topics, as opposed to the core concepts.

Now imagine further to what this does for higher education. In this proposed system, it would simply be a fact that graduating kids would know - at mastery level - what their school's curriculums listed off; it's the equivalent of everyone having a 1600 on their SAT's. College acceptance becomes less of a selectivity problem, and more of an efficiency problem; where are all these geniuses going to study!

Ahhh, the potential is so exciting...

That being said, as sort of an aside I think it's noteworthy to say that the idea of fixing the tuition-based University model is a bit more complex than the high school model, but as user arjn said bellow, there are plenty of free lecture repositories out there already; perhaps if prior educational systems encouraged and indoctrinated students to be more self-proficient (as in the Khan system), University learning becomes more about educating yourself, and those free lectures will (naturally) replace the pay-to-learn model. I don't know, but it's a thought...

<comment><USER9> >and there wouldn't be kids who didn't know how to tie their shoes;

I've met at least a few people who, being charitable, I would be extremely hard pressed to see passing a calculus exam. I'd agree that for some it's down to motivation but the motivation may come 20+years later or not at all.

Certainly though I'm extremely wary of declaring that all people can attain the same intellectual level which appears to be what you claim.

I'm not going to say it's impossible but I think you must have missed a step where you do some sort of brain augmentation or injection of nanobots to build knowledge pathways without any need to apply a learning process ...

<comment><USER8> My little rant is definitely meant to be more persuasive than quantifiably accurate; take it with a grain of salt.

Regardless, I don't think the existence of can't-be-motivated learners compromises the ideals of a Khan-like system. Sure there are kids that aren't going to get it no matter what, but their productivity in any system is going to be nill, Khan, tradtional, or otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As a university math TA, my students would often say "you're so much better than the teacher, why don't you teach the class?"

Hearing this is definitely an ego stroke, but what the student really means is that he learns better by practicing problems than by listening to theory. I feel this is even more true in a younger school environment.

The teacher's and TA's roles are simply different in this respect, so I take no credit for "being better than the teacher".

But what Khan Academy does is really interesting, because now the teacher takes the role of the TA. I feel this is a much more effective way to teach. And ultimately the student will benefit. Thumbs up to this philosophy.

<comment><USER11> I think this is a really keen observation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Really wonderful reminder of what just one person can set in motion. I could easily see him becoming considered one of the most important people of this century based on what he is doing for education and its globalization.

</comment><comment><USER11> Over the years I've found lectures less and less useful to attend in person as profs and other presenters post their lectures and powerpoint slides online. I can just watch/read those and get everything I need from those materials, then when I'm in class I can ask much more useful questions and cover the details that really make the difference.

I love how the Khan Academy is institutionalizing that idea. I can't see any reason that lectures need to be done in person, but being able to work through sticking points with someone. Now that is valuable.

I really do think Sal Khan will revolutionize teaching. At least in the areas this model is applicable.

</comment><comment><USER13> This man is certainly one of my heroes. I love this part from the FAQ on the Khan Academy:

        What topics do you plan to cover?

        My goal is to cover everything. Yes, everything!
        ... My goal really is to keep making videos until the day I die
        (which will hopefully not be for at least another 50 or 60
        years). Should give me time to make several tens
        of thousands of videos in pretty much every subject."

<comment><USER14> Very Asimovian, don't you think?

Isaac Asimov wrote either 506 books (or 515, say some sources) in his 72-year lifetime. (Jan 2, 1920 - Apr 6, 1992)

<comment><USER15> Was about to make the very same point.

I used to, and still, treasure the books on science that Mr.Asimov wrote. It was fantastic. I just wish that he had lived to see this phenomenon taking place. I think he would be very, very pleased with Salman

<comment><USER16> Yes, I found some of Asimov's science books in the school library, and I think the reason he wrote such good science fiction was that he could explain stuff really well. He really _got_ his settings, and the same when he wrote about real science. He was understandable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> After viewing this video I logged into Khan academy to check out the practice tracking features highlighted in the video. Mainly I wanted to see the categorical branching of subjects that they showed.

Its a pretty amazing idea and execution. From one basic subject, addition, they expand and branch out all the way down to basic calculus. It would be really amazing if they continued expanding this out to the point where all subjects where mapped out, even the less mathematical ones. Just to see the path from addition to trigonometry is a pretty good refresher of what the mechanics of the trig functions actually entail. Imagine seeing the path from addition to linear algebra.

More to the point, imagine a world in which a student uses this system throughout their educational career. I can't even fathom the difference that that level of tracking and relational mapping between ideas would have on a students understanding of material and motivation to tackle new subjects.

</comment><comment><USER18> Khanacademy is neat but I find it odd that people on HN either aren't aware or dont care about other earlier sources such as :

      - MIT's OCW
      - USNW eLearning channel on Youtube (esp Richar Buckland)
      - TIMMS (Germany, possibly the first of the video resources)
      - UCBerkeley youtube channel
      - Dr. Adrian Banner (Princeton)
      - Harvard (esp Michael Sandel's lectures, amazing)

The above can be easily searched for and are hardly a comprehensive list as that would be large. Here is a website which is a sort of clearinghouse for video lectures: www.cosmolearning.com

A search of HN shows less attention given to these original sources than perhaps they deserve. In my opinion MIT OCW was the best known initiative till recent times and started this wave of online video learning. _BTW, I highly recommend Michael Sandel's lectures on ethics and politics, available on YouTube._

<comment><USER19> Khan Academy is miles better than any of those when it comes to design and ease of use, _especially_ when it comes to presenting the material to elementary/middle school aged children. I certainly don't think a MIT lecture will appeal to 5th graders.

<comment><USER20> For me, the presentation is just _better_. There's something about 10-12 minute lessons, and obviously the thought that goes into distilling it to that size, that makes it digestible. (I'm really curious how much time goes into making one 10 minute lesson.) It sticks.

One caveat: I've been exposed to this material before in other contexts, so it's more like a phenomenal refresher. I can't know if this is a better way to teach from scratch. But, frankly, it's been long enough, or I was just that bad at it the first time, that it sometimes feels like I never learned it in the first place. This gives me some degree of confidence that it's at least one right way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I actually swelled up in tears when he showed the spreadsheet of student progress, and suggested having the students with red blocks (those who are stuck on a concept) being given help from the students with green blocks (those who mastered it).

That is _so_ beautiful.

<comment><USER22> For me it was the moment where he showed the progress of students and how the (initially) slow learner picked up the concepts faster and faster.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I found it very interesting how he applied data-analysis techniques [at time 12:33 in the video] to provide teachers with a better and correct understanding of each student's shortcomings (probably from his insights from his earlier profession on the Wall St.) that will take the student/tutor interaction to a new level!

<comment><USER11> What I found more interesting was that lack of those tools in current teaching. I can't believe no one's made those kind of analysis tools available to teachers before.

<comment><USER24> Can't agree with this enough. Every time we make a new chart I think to myself, "Well that wasn't rocket science," and then when we show teachers they go _absolutely nuts_.

<comment><USER25> Maybe I'm just tired, but what do you mean by chart? A personalized one tailored to a student?

Edit: Ignore this, read your blog, very insightful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Here is a link because ted.com is just as awesome as youtube.com

[http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_rein...](http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education.html)

Also is the youtube video a strange colour red for anyone else?

<comment><USER27> I can't wait for the subtitles to be uploaded, so that I can share with my friends who can't be bothered to watch something which is not in their language.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I worked with Sal when we were both at Oracle. one thing i think is that what he's doing with khan academy ties directly to his strengths.

he was very good at explaining and teaching, and liked analyzing data.

</comment><comment><USER29> This is wonderful. Education is, IMHO, the most important thing in the world, full stop, since it forms the basis for what we are able to do and more importantly how we think.

Personally, I found school boring and tedious (and got pretty average grades) until going to 6th form college where I discovered something amazing - learning isn't defined by a failed teaching system - learning done right is a joyful and wonderful thing (unsurprisingly my grades significantly improved at this point).

The fact that learning is a joy is one of the most important discoveries you make in life (or don't, unfortunately I think most people don't) and anything that allows people to discover this is a vastly important thing.

(It's important to note that learning, as with everything else, isn't 100% joyful all the time, but that the joy of it infinitely outweighs any difficulty and pain encountered along the way).

I've noticed a pernicious worship of ignorance that pervades, at least, my country (the UK) - the idea that learning is boring and there's something wrong with you if you seem to enjoy it - that alone is to my mind incredibly dangerous. Nothing could be further from the truth, literally. This is nothing, though, compared to countries where ordinary people are simply unable to access quality education or even any education at all where the Khan academy is an example of the internet at its democratising best.

Go Sal!

</comment><comment><USER30> It was a great talk. Future of education. I loved the way Bill interacted with Khan.

<comment><USER31> He has stated in numerous occasions that his children use Khan Academy's videos.

I really admire Sal for what he's doing with global education. He is a big inspiration for anyone looking to change the world. Specially hackers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Saw this live. He's amazing.

<comment><USER33> He is. Hero material. I have a feeling we'll be talking about him in decades the way people talk about Feynman now. Making people want to learn and helping them do it is a noble thing.

<comment><USER32> Yeah. Turns out I live in the town he mentions -- on the street for one of the schools.

If I listened hard, I wonder if I could hear paradigms shifting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Actually, I got so excited (and moved) when I saw his talk at GEL:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTXKCzrFh3c>

That I started my own channel for Programming in C++, for my students... I have 74 videos already... (in Spanish, sorry)

<http://www.youtube.com/user/paueky>

</comment><comment><USER35> I think what could eventually be even more impactful than the videos themselves is the statistics tracking he showed. With that kind of data across thousands or millions of people, you would see patterns of people who had the same problems and questions in the same places, and you could redo the videos to be more clear in those areas and answer those questions preemptively. With a web-scale audience you could do A-B testing experiments and optimize the performance of your teaching material. I think a curriculum optimized in this way could eventually be dramatically better than even the best traditional education has to offer today.

Today teaching is an art; this could turn it into a science.

</comment><comment><USER36> Because the site doesn't make it obvious, Khan Academy is an Open Source project: <https://code.google.com/p/khanacademy/>

</comment><comment><USER19> Simply amazing that a guy armed only with a tablet and a microphone can have this much impact.

</comment><comment><USER37> And it all started with him tutoring his cousins long-distance while maintaining a busy work schedule. There is something real special about that - willingness to spend "free" time, willingness to tutor in spite of the distance (he was in Boston and his cousins were in Louisiana).

Either of these reasons would have been sufficient excuses for him to not help his cousins. Lucky for them and for all of us that such an amazing talent was so generous with his time and insistent on using technology to overcome the distance barrier.

</comment><comment><USER38> Idea HN: Make transcripts of all videos in KhanAcademy and have them presented with blackboard images and all, nicely organized in a web page with links to original videos.

</comment><comment><USER39> As someone who was often bored during school lectures, I think the idea is great. One of the things I love about the Internet is that, in many cases, only the best rises to the top. That means people everywhere can have access to the best information on a subject, or in this case, the best video lecture. I think that is awesome, because it seems that the smaller the town/school/college, the rarer good professionals are.

There are a lot of problems tangled up in in this that also need to be solved. His model relies on students watching lectures at home. Not everyone has broadband; some don't even have a computer. What do you do for those kids? Do you send home DVDs? What if there is no TV? (probably rare in the US, but still) Do you give every student a free laptop? I understand Los Altos is a pilot program, but quoting Wikipedia: "It is one of the wealthiest places in the United States." What do you do in the inner city or in very rural areas?

Obviously the people behind this are very smart and I'm sure they are considering all the issues involved, this is just my brain dump after watching.

I like the lecture-as-homework idea. It seems that less of everyone's time will be wasted with that method. Teachers/parents will have a much better idea of how long the "homework" will take, because the video is a fixed length +/- the rewinding/fast forwarding. In the classroom, everyone gets the attention they need.

Things I'm curious about: What about the students who work faster than the rest? I guess they eventually reach the end of the curriculum for that particular course. Do they move to the next classes' topics or is there some set of optional topics that they can choose based on personal interest?

What kinds of tests are there? He talked about the current models shortcomings(some student fail the test, but the class moves on anyway), but are there any big tests or final exams on the model? Or, is it entirely "quizzes?"

Have the teachers noticed an improvement in student behavior? Do they spend less time on disciplinary action due to the more interactive sessions?

</comment><comment><USER40> As a kid I had ADHD, I found myself staying up all night programming and sleeping in my classes. The skills I leanred then have served me well but if the classroom was more engaging maybe I wouldn't have had such a difficult path.

I hope this spreads like wildfire.

</comment><comment><USER41> I've been looking at the Khan Academy site a bit.

I find the exercise dashboard kind of strange. Is math the only available subject? And do you have to go through all the prerequisite exercises to progress to the next ones?

<comment><USER24> At the moment, yes, math only. We're working to entirely cover K-12 math before moving on.

You can jump to any area or exercise you want at any time. We suggest exercises, but I've seen plenty of 5th graders jump to Calculus and play around with Limits just because it's interesting/challenging and they saw their friend try it.

<comment><USER41> Ah, that's really cool and thanks for your reply. You guys are doing some incredible work.

One thing you guys might be interested in: <https://courseware.stanford.edu/pg/concept_map/index/41601> Daphne Koller is a Stanford CS professor who has been teaching her course CS228 on Probabilistic Models in a similar format for a couple of years. She has the lectures online by chunks of about 10 minutes and then uses in-class time for more interactive sessions. (I'm not sure if you can access the videos if you don't have a Stanford login though)

I really think this method of learning makes so much sense for any level student. Can't wait to see it progress!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I believe his method has a ton of potential. First saw Khan on This Week in Startups: [http://thisweekin.com/thisweekin-startups/this-week-in- start...](http://thisweekin.com/thisweekin-startups/this-week-in- startups-94-with-salman-khan-founder-of-khan-academy/) and was impressed to learn that Bill Gates invited him to talk. I think his method works for many people and could change the way many people learn.

</comment><comment><USER43> The record keeping is a double edged sword. Maybe one day institutions will start using your Khan record as a metric for employment/admissions. And that's the day people will start cheating. I guess this means standardized tests like the SATs and GREs aren't going anywhere.

</comment><comment><USER44> The long standing ovation at the end was so well deserved. I had a smile on my face as I watched it.

</comment><comment><USER45> Besides other good things about shifting teacher's work from lecturing to actually spending time with kids that were mentioned here, I would like to point out that some teachers are really bad lecturers. My most vivid impressions are from early collage math courses but it is as valid for high school as well. The professor can lead the lecture at million words a minute constantly erasing the board so you don't have the time to copy the material, let alone let it sink in. The professor can have heavy accent, so you spend most of you attention just trying to understand his words.

</comment><comment><USER46> I love this idea. I've been watching the KhanA videos for a while now, and learning about the U.S history ;) economy, and what not (I'm from Mexico), I'd love to see these videos in multiple languages.

</comment><comment><USER47> I thought eLearning was something impossible to do efficiently - before I saw this video.

A compelling argument, and a great method! I can't count the startup ideas that could come from this.

</comment><comment><USER48> I think most people miss the point that the statistics provided by the Khan Academy is equally kick-ass as its videos. He mentions of a "teacher driven" design process.

TDD? ;)

</comment><comment><USER49> I admire Khan. Although he is not unique in his approach, he is uniquely positioned to deliver this message. By quitting his job and giving away his time, he is an ideal ambassador to the message of "scalable pedagogy". As he has described, if Isaac Newton had recorded his lessons on Youtube, Khan wouldn't have to.

By giving alway classroom tools like test management and monitoring, he is also equipping teachers to become more scalable and as he described - <USER3> driven.

</comment><comment><USER50> This is great, but I wish there were some lessons on coding. Computer programming at some basic level at least should be required of all students - even if they don't make a career out of it, being able to work snippets of code will come in handy across all disciplines in the future - finance, medicine, media, or repairing that broken fridge in your e-home.

</comment><comment><USER51> He has great videos on his site esp on "Valuation and Investing" and "Venture Capital and Capital Markets". After you watch those everything just makes perfect sense.

</comment><comment><USER52> Beauty of the graph at 13'50" - It is good to believe in children/people and do sthg about it as Khan does.

</comment><comment><USER53> Awesome speech. What's wrong with the YouTube video quality, though?

</comment><comment><USER54> nice post wb. does he use prezi for his presentations?</comment>


Hacked memo leaked: Apple, Nokia, RIM supply backdoors for government? - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.computerworld.com/19531/hacked_memo_leaked_apple_nokia_rim_supply_backdoors_for_govt_intercept <comment><AUTHOR> The reason this is interesting is not so much that some companies have apparently provided backdoors so that governments can spy on their users. We already knew (or could reasonably surmise) that that was happening.

No, the fun part is that one government's spies (India's) have apparently used these backdoors to spy on the agents of another country (the US). So, you see, by mandating these sorts of security compromises, governments have in fact made it easier for foreign governments to steal _their own_ secrets—an irony apparently lost on the author of the Indian memo and on the authors of these policies.

<comment><USER2> Exactly. Any backdoor comes with the possibility of use by other parties - hackers, foreign governments, etc. Which is why they are always unacceptable, even if you trust the US government (or whoever is asking for it), including everyone who does or ever will work for them (which is an absurd risk).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The lesson is, don't trust commercial security products. Only trust open source peer reviewed products like TrueCrypt, GPG, etc.

If you want your data to be secure, use your own layer of encryption, preferably on your own physical disk or at the very least have the encryption executing in an environment you control. e.g. Not someone else's package of TrueCrypt running on their server, rather your verified package on your machine and then upload it.

Encryption is a major strategic issue and few governments will lay down and accept that their citizens or other countries have the ability securely store and transmit data. I was at an NSA show and tell recently and they had an original enigma machine on display which speaks volumes.

<comment><USER4> The article is about OS-level backdoors, not software-level backdoors. The aforementioned software wouldn't do anything against keyloggers on the phone.

I think the software you're hoping for is jailbreaking the phone. But some governments are making or made that illegal: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-circumvention>

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you're scared of your government, you shouldn't be using any form of communication without end-to-end encryption that you control fully. This much should have been obvious for decades now.

Criminals and revolutionaries are surely just as aware of these simple facts as we are, so these systems will likely mainly be used to spy on the innocent for political or personal gain.

If you make secure crypto a crime, only criminals will have secure crypto.

<comment><USER6> If things are really that bad, that in itself would raise red flags all over the place.

related aside: I always wondered at people who push TOR for citizens of authoritarian regimes - please pin a "subject of interest" on me, pretty please. imho, it is not "content" that upsets these regimes, it is _the desire to question the system_ that is the issue.

<comment><USER7> OT, I know but it's Tor, not TOR.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Isn't this a legal requirement in the US?

"CALEA's purpose is to enhance the ability of law enforcement and intelligence agencies to conduct electronic surveillance by requiring that telecommunications carriers and manufacturers of telecommunications equipment modify and design their equipment, facilities, and services to ensure that they have built-in surveillance capabilities, allowing federal agencies to monitor all telephone, broadband internet, and VoIP traffic in real-time."

From: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_L...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act)

<comment><USER9> It basically is. It's also a part of what allowed Chinese hackers to infiltrate Gmail, I believe.

<comment><USER10> I'm curious what led you to that conclusion (about the Gmail incident)?

<comment><USER9> This is the article I based it on: [http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/23/schneier.google.ha...](http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/23/schneier.google.hacking/).

Note that the expert used in the article is Bruce Schneier.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> So there's clearly a problem here, and the only solution seems to be to use a 100% open-source device along with 100% open-source software.

I mean there's pretty compelling evidence that others now have access to what we're doing on our (closed-source) devices. Would it now be totally irrational to go the Richard Stallman route?

<comment><USER12> As an OpenMoko owner, it's not really much of an option.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Given the US Gov (and I'm fairly certain most other govs as well) has wiretapping laws in place ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_L...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act)), I don't see why anyone would be surprised that the hardware providers also provide a mechanism to allow for tapping.

</comment><comment><USER14> Second announcement: <http://pastebay.com/272823>

Third announcement: <http://pastebay.com/272822>

Images of document: <http://imgur.com/a/8XoGf>

</comment><comment><USER15> The memo says "all major device vendors".

<comment><USER16> I would assume that the backdoor for Android devices is the Android Market itself.

Because Android is open source and each device manufacturer has its own build, it isn't really plausible to have a single backdoor within the core operating system. However, the closed-source Android Market application is the perfect candidate for such a mechanism; when you install an app via the market, all of the following happens:

1\. You request the application from the Market and agree to any permissions requested.

2\. The Market pushes an install instruction to the phone via Google's XMPP- based Android notification service.

3\. The phone downloads and installs the .apk as instructed.

Step 3 requires no interaction from the user – this is how, for instance, you can send an app to your phone from the Market web site. But it also means that any government with sufficient leverage over Google can coerce them to use this mechanism to install an arbitrary SpyOnStuff.apk at any time.

But if this is the case it isn't entirely bad news for Android users, rather it yields two means of protecting yourself which aren't necessarily options on other platforms:

1\. Use an open source Android build such as CyanogenMod, without the closed- source Market app installed.

2\. Proxy Google's XMPP notification service and require user confirmation before pushed APKs are installed. I don't know of any Android mods that currently implement this capability, but it would be nice to see in future versions of Cyanogen or similar.

<comment><USER17> > I would assume that the backdoor for Android devices is the Android Market > itself.

Not necessarily. The baseband firmware on your phone is probably more capable than you think. I played around with hacking my old HTC WinMo phone and with a little work I got the (Qualcomm) firmware to respond over USB. There's a complete file system on there that's nearly identical to the file system structure on my wife's dumb-phone (and accessed the same way). I assume they'd put everything they need at _that_ level and don't have to insert anything into Android itself.

<comment><USER16> Yes, but even on devices where the baseband has full access to main system address space, the baseband device is something that varies from one Android phone to the next; on the other hand, the Android Market is a constant across almost all Android devices.

So which would you rather develop: a different backdoor mechanism for every Android baseband out there, or a single mechanism for all phones equipped with the Android Market?

<comment><USER17> This code probably doesn't vary that much. Across all the qualcomm phones I looked at (Smart and feature phone), it's clearly the same basic operating system. So this one underlying OS that's almost identical across _all_ phones smart _or_ feature that use the same chipset (in my case, they are all CDMA phones). So what's easier to develop, a backdoor mechanism that works for every phone (feature or smart) in exactly the same way using the same code or a different mechanism for each phone OS?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Not that I am defending Apple, but I hope that whoever condemns Apple also knows about <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY>

</comment><comment><USER19> I really enjoy posting this...

RMS was right all along.

<comment><USER20> I think you mean Shinedown was right all along.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> CALEA requires all your communication devices to have back doors... stop focusing on corporations and start looking at the law and your politicians.

</comment><comment><USER22> My first impression was that the memo is fake. The author refers to people (such as Shantanu Ghosh) without titles; and from what I recall of Indian bureaucracy, titles are important and you just don't drop them. They would always say "Hon. XYZ" or "Shri ABC".

Plus, it looks like the contents of the intercepts listed were there for gratuitous purposes only.

I could be wrong, though.

</comment><comment><USER23> Is there any verified info showing a backdoor in Apple iOS?

From my brief reading it sounds like the person writing the memo may not be able to distinguish between surveillance of the carriers and putting backdoors into the devices themselves. I can believe that the carriers would be compromised, sooner than I'll believe that the operating systems are.

Specifically, one of the things Apple did with iOS 5 for iCloud was put in end-to-end encryption into the system. iOS has for an even longer period contained protections to make it less easy for an app to read data belonging to other apps, and the storage on Flash has been encrypted since at least iOS 4 (I believe.)

Yet the iOS 5 binaries are subject to the scrutiny of the jail breaking community, and if there is a backdoor here, I'd think that it might have been found. (Or will be soon now that its existence has apparently been leaked.)

Further, how could this actually work? (the memo is so full of jargon and nonsensical to me that I stopped trying to interpret it pretty quickly.)

Its tricky to get intentional communication- FaceTime, iMessage, etc, working on devices, let alone back doors for a specific government. I don't think the indian government could successfully delver to Apple a spec for them to implement that wouldn't intrinsically cause noticeable problems and thus reveal its existence regularly.

In short, I suspect that a backdoor is kinda infeasible from a software reliability viewpoint.

Finally, its also quite possible that this is a psyops campaign. By announcing that they have a back door (thur a leaked memo) the indian government could be attempting to bring pressure to bear from other governments to get their own backdoors, and thus, enable india to ultimately actually get a backdoor. I remember months ago reading that the indian government wanted more access to the mobile devices but were being stymied by manufacturers.

I've been observing Apple fairly closely for over 30 years and working with their operating systems, often at a fairly low level for almost 20 years. I've never seen Apple do anything that would betray their customers trust. People may object to the decisions Apple makes, but I have never seen a decision that, at the end of the day, didn't have at least the intent to do right by the customer (even when they failed to achieve that intent.)

Thus I'm highly suspicious at any claim that Apple has put in a backdoor. I think this kind of claim is extraordinary and out or character, and Apple has far more integrity in my eyes than these documents.

So, I'd like to see some evidence before we accept that this is fact.

<comment><USER24> "one of the things Apple did with iOS 5 for iCloud was put in end-to-end encryption into the system."

I'm not familiar with iCloud. Does it have strong client side encryption?

<comment><USER25> Nope, you can easily get access to your files via USB. As for storage on iCloud, any keys would need to be recoverable via your Apple ID password which would likely make it the weak point of the scheme.

Any telecommunications device in the US is subject to CALEA so expect backdoors.

<comment><USER26> Actually from IOS4 and on, you can't get files via USB directly without entering the passcode. The filesystem itself is encrypted (AES256) and unlocked once the passcode is entered on the device.

However I believe without a passcode you can still just use USB to access everything.

<comment><USER27> Could you clarify this a bit? It seems to be contradictory.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This article is precisely why I have a Linux box on my desk here and support android only. WHEN (not if) When the government decides to blacklist and whitelist ideas, actions and clicks, I can recompile the OS and comment out those lines.

<comment><USER29> Are there layman-friendly tutorials on these OS-level steps to ensure full control of encryption? If it remains a matter of editing and recompiling an operating system, the masses have no hope of reestablishing that control.

<comment><USER21> They have the ability to re-establish control, which is much better than the lack thereof.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Shocker.

</comment><comment><USER31> I do believe the US and UK governments have access to cell phone traffic (Echelon), so part of this is no surprise.

But what I don't necessarily believe is that the government of India is in on it. Or that they are intercepting memos written by the United States about some confidential stuff. I feel this whole thing is a hoax and not real.

Has this been confirmed by anyone? I wouldn't necessarily trust some "hacked memo" posted to Pastebin. Also, the title bothers me. Memos are leaked, not hacked.

<comment><USER32> """Also, the title bothers me. Memos are leaked, not hacked."""

This is a pedantic distinction. Both could happen, if you take it to mean something like:

"Leaked": someone with "legal" access to it, made it available.

"Hacked": someone hacked their systems/email, and got the memo.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to test the latency between two Linux containers via shared memory? - <AUTHOR> Is there any tools or good practice to test the performance (especially, latency) of shared memory between two Linux containers? <comment><USER2> You could try running ipc-bench's server and client in separate containers.

[https://github.com/goldsborough/ipc- bench/tree/master/source...](https://github.com/goldsborough/ipc- bench/tree/master/source/shm)

Apart from the namespace separation logic, I'd expect very little overhead, if any.</comment>


Rdio 2.0 Design - <AUTHOR> http://theindustry.cc/2012/11/27/rdio-2-0-for-ios/ <comment><USER2> As a longtime Rdio loyalist, I'm really digging it. It seems to take fewer taps to get to the different sections and many of the discovery sections ("New Releases" and "Heavy Rotation") finally infinite scroll in iOS, which really makes discovery easier.

Plus it's remarkably pretty, which I appreciate. Nice fonts, subtle color variations and a few transparent UI layers give it a nice texture. A lot of hard core music lovers like vinyl because the attention to packaging invokes a certain reverence for the art - to some extent I think Rdio accomplish this as much as they can on a 3.5 inch screen.

</comment><comment><USER3> Interestingly, Rdio 2.0 is built with C# and MonoTouch, sharing significant amounts of code with the Android client. <https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/273487637292130304>

<comment><USER4> For some reason, I would expect this to improve the quality of their Windows Phone app, which is nigh-unusable. Despite how much I love Rdio (and opted to pay for the family plan), I'm considering switching away because of this.

<comment><USER5> The question is, what would you switch to? Spotify is AWOL (at least on WP8), Rdio's app is terrible, etc.

<comment><USER4> My predicament exactly. I have heard good things about Xbox Music, but I haven't given it a look yet.

<comment><USER5> Xbox Music is nice if you like the built in music+videos interface for browsing music, playlists, etc. Good selection, fairly easy to search for and download music. The only issue is that since I'm on a Mac, I have no way to listen to that music when I'm on my laptop.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The radical new all-white design of the desktop app and their refusal to address the outcry it caused among their users was the main reason I switched to Spotify after happily using their service for years.

If they're "doubling down" on this style in the mobile app now I guess I made the right choice. It's a shame - rdio is a great service in a lot of other ways.

<comment><USER7> Wait… so you stopped using rdio because you didn't like the design, but you chose spotify? ARE YOU BLIND MAN?

<comment><USER6> Spotify isn't beautiful but at least it's not like staring right into the sun.

<comment><USER8> Not only is Spotify ugly, it's nearly unusable in my opinion. Today I was trying to navigate to a friend's playlist and was unable to do so from the list of my Facebook friends. The web presence for the playlist had no titles, and the first time I tried to open it in the app it failed.

I did not like Rdio's re-design at first, but it has grown on me more than I thought it would.

<comment><USER6> Rdio wins hands-down for social/sharing features. That's the thing I miss the most. On Spotify I'm pretty much solo.

Spotify's other killer feature is local sync on the laptop. I'm usually dependent on crappy hotel/cafe wifi and Rdio just chokes.

<comment><USER9> Spotify's killer feature is that you don't have to exit the app and switch to a different app to play music that they don't have.

<comment><USER10> True, there are also a few of my favorite bands on Spotify that Rdio doesn't have. Rdio seem like they haven't gotten a hold of certain indie labels. I've considered switching to a paid Spotify account just because of that.

Spotify had a terrible Android app for a while, so I switched to Rdio. Then Spotify really improved their app so I considered them again, but now Rdio's app is even better. Hmm...

Also, Rdio has a "family plan" type thing. My wife and I both have accounts, so we get a discount.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm enjoying the new mobile design.

My initial reaction was not positive, I saw the similarities to the FB mobile app with the swipe right menu and I thought "oh no." But quickly I found it much more intuitive to use than the previous grid layout.

I've modified my opinion that the style of revel navigation is not bad but I previously didn't enjoy it because of Facebook's unresponsive implementation.

</comment><comment><USER9> The new Rdio design is really nice, but there's really only one thing about Rdio that I find extremely lacking (and it was never their design).

I wish I could play my phone's iTunes music collection from Rdio. The fact is, you can't find everything on Rdio (hello, Led Zeppelin?) and it's kind of sucky that you would have to switch to a totally different app for that.

<comment><USER12> They answered this question in their support forum. Their answer was that your own audio files are not "social" so they do not plan to support them inside Rdio.

<comment><USER9> That rationale makes me more sad than I can express in a comment. :(

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Glad to see the new design go full-circle. It's nice that there's consistency on all fronts. Although, I was surprised by the omission of a volume control interface.

The volume can be controlled with the hardware buttons, but the lack of software controls is really inconvenient. It forces the user to have physical access to the side of the device – this should never be a requirement. Also, iOS remembers the volume state when the headphone jack is plugged in or out. Not having visual feedback of the current volume level leaves the user in the dark. Finally, users expect consistency – the web app and Mac App, and even the official Music app, offer a software volume control. Why should the Rdio mobile app be the exception?

Although it may seem like a petty issue, it contributes to a sub-par listening experience.

<comment><USER14> I have to respectfully disagree. I think it makes sense to assume that if the user can touch the screen to change the volume, they can touch the side of the device too.

That assumption is enough to justify the move. It also plays into the constraints of a smaller screen, lending more space for the UI bits for which there are no hardware controls.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> And on my blackberry I still have the same rdio app for 2 years...

<comment><USER16> Surprised they made one in the first place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Rdio - is iOS app used to manage music:

 _Earlier today, music streaming service Rdio launched a major update of its mobile app for iPhone and iPad, a much-needed redesign for an app that was starting to show its age._</comment>