Apple at 40: The forgotten founder who gave it all away - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35940300 <comment><USER2> There are so many things that might have happened but for one key decision. You can't spend the rest of your life wondering "what if?"

But it can be tempting!

In my case, I had the opportunity to be the first programmer at Apple. I told the story on Reddit a few years ago:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/h4n5w/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/h4n5w/)

As you can imagine, I have wondered "what if?" more than a few times. :-)

But "what if?" can work both ways. I could have become a billionaire and one of the most famous people in Silicon Valley. Or Steve could have driven me from the mild depression I'd occasionally experienced into full-blown mental illness, as happened with one of Apple's earliest employees. You just don't know which way it could have turned out.

The other story on the front page today about Regis McKenna reminds me of one of the more remarkable coincidences I've encountered.

As I told in the Reddit story, when I walked out of Apple's answering service in 1976 I thought to myself, "Those guys are flakes! They're never going to make it."

It was one of those things that sticks in your mind. I remember vividly to this day exactly where I was walking and the exact words that were in my head.

A couple of years ago I was reading Michael Moritz's _Return to the Little Kingdom_ and ran across this:

 _At first there was great uncertainty at the Regis McKenna Agency about Apple 's prospects. The account executive, Frank Burge, explained, "People who knew Markkula and Apple wondered whether they would make it. We kept saying 'These guys are flakes. They're never going to make it.'"_

Other than "these" vs. "those", it's the _exact same words_ I was thinking.

It was definitely a strange feeling to run across that quote!

<comment><USER3> You made the right choice. I have talked to lots of people who worked at Apple in the early days, including some key people from the first dozen or so employees. I never met anyone who said it was enjoyable working with Jobs. (Lots of people said they grew a lot, learned a lot, and so on, but never anything along the lines of "I felt great going in to work every day".

For those reasons I went to Microsoft. And you know what? I felt great going into work every day. That's way more important than a billion dollars.

Also, I'm a somewhat high net worth individual (nothing remotely in the Steve Jobs range). I'm lucky to be where I am, but the price of being a billionaire seems much too high for me.

You appear to be at peace with your decision. It is a much deserved peace.

<comment><USER4> >>For those reasons I went to Microsoft. And you know what? I felt great going into work every day. That's way more important than a billion dollars.

Is it, though? I mean, don't get me wrong, happiness is very important, but we're talking about literally a billion dollars. You can use that type of money to do a shit ton of things, and virtually guarantee that your children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren etc. live very, very comfortable lives. Personally, given the choice, I'd gladly choose half a decade (or whatever) of absolute misery working for an asshole boss if it will net me a billion dollars in the end. Because for me, my own happiness is not more important than the happiness and comfort of those around me and those who come after me.

<comment><USER5> You imply that making your [grand]children wealthy is something really beneficial for them.

It is not.

The same way as winning big in lottery usually leads to misery, the same way huge inheritances do not really make people happy.

It is better for your descendants to earn their wealth themselves (whatever that wealth would be).

<comment><USER6> I completely agree. There is no guarantee that they will invest wisely. Adversity is a great teacher and wisdom is the fruit of that labor if not somewhat liberating. I think through that wisdom, the phrase "never enough" has much more meaning. 10k needs to be 100k after time passes and we keep finding excuses to inflate that number.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I always wonder how true that last statement is - to the tune of "Find something you love so much that if you do it you'll never work a day in your life."

I've enjoyed things that, when they became an obligation, I stopped enjoying. Though I think it says more about myself than the actual veracity of the quote.

<comment><USER8> That's pretty much bullshit for the pure reason that a job very rarely can only include the things you love. I love programming but I hate polishing up the same features for days, but that's what's necessary to make a good app. I hate testing, but it's part of the game.

How photographers really spend their time : [http://www.cambyte.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/05/piechart.j...](http://www.cambyte.com/wp- content/uploads/2015/05/piechart.jpg)

Having said that I'm sure, some people in some industries reach that dream but I can't think of any...

<comment><USER9> Love what you do (easier then "do what you love").

<comment><USER7> I once had a psych professor who said he wasn't made to teach, in fact, he pretty much hated it. Since it came with the uni job, he said he used his knowledge of psychology to make himself enjoy it.

On the flip side, sometimes I see a really happy person doing a "dead-end job", which also makes me wonder how much disposition plays into it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is an excellent example of why startups are dominated by the young, single, affluent. They have nearly nothing to lose. The rest of us do.

"If the company goes poof, we are individually liable for the debts," Wayne explained. "Jobs and Wozniak didn't have two nickels to rub together. I had a house, and a bank account, and a car… I was reachable!"

<comment><USER11> Was not Apple incorporated as a limited liability company which limits your losses?

<comment><USER12> It's very common with "Close companies" (companies that are owned and run by a small number of people) that banks require the directors/owners to act as a personal guarantor on company loans.

Without that, it would be quite legal for the directors to take a whopping loan, pay themselves a whopping salary/bonus, then have the company go bankrupt without recourse to the bank. Rinse, repeat, profit.

<comment><USER13> _Rinse, repeat, profit._

That "repeat" part is where this plan goes off the rails. You can fool your creditors once, but then the word gets around.

<comment><USER14> Unless you're Trump.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Don't forget that it is silly to equate 10% of the company at founding with $60 billion today.

He would definitely be rich, but there would have been a fair bit of dilution.

<comment><USER16> True, but I think it's quite reasonable to say that his share would still have been worth N * 10^9, for some value of N > 1

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> > "If the company goes poof, we are individually liable for the debts," Wayne > explained.

Definitely not true, since Apple was a corporation. Creditors can only "pierce the corporate veil" (and tap shareholder assets) where a corporation is a sham, which Apple certainly wasn't. I hope he had other reasons for walking away, since this one doesn't make any sense!

<comment><USER18> The corporate veil is often thinner than you think and priciplals of young companies are often asked to sign personal guarantees on contracts.

<comment><USER19> And lines of credit, leases, loans, insurance policies, corporate credit cards... One real-world indicator that your company is beginning to succeed is reaching the point that personal guarantees are no longer required.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> this is incredible. According to the article he backed out of the shares because of possible liability of the deal went south, but that doesn't make sense. If they incorporated his personal assets would not be up for grabs if the company couldn't pay it's debt. Also the fact that he did this means that he does care about financial stability and this seemed like a bad investment. In either case, it's impossible to predict these things so statistically he probably made the right move, but what bad luck!! Im surprised Steve didn't get him back into apple once they were well off, or maybe there is more to this story.

<comment><USER10> Jobs even ripped off Woz when the opportunity presented itself. He was the last person to give any part of "his" baby away.

"When they made Breakout for Atari, Wozniak and Jobs were going to split the pay 50-50. Atari gave Jobs $5000 to do the job. He told Wozniak he got $700 so Wozniak took home $350."

<comment><USER21> You may be curious to know Woz does not hold it against Steve Jobs. He clarified that with me before: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706690](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706690)

<comment><USER22> Woz seems to be such a gentle and kind guy who just loves tech and gadgets. I don't think I have ever read of anyone having a problem with him. Pretty interesting as most people at such a high level in any sector (not just IT) are usually known to be assholes.

<comment><USER23> I've always felt that if people idolized Woz more than Jobs, the world would be a better place. That's probably just my own tinkerer/engineer bias coming to light though.

<comment><USER22> You're not alone. Woz seems like a really great guy. He has a big heart. When I think of what a true hacker is I think of Woz. A person who loves tech and to tinker but for the better for others and not just himself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Assuming he hung in, would he have sold out when Jobs got fired back in the 90's? We always try and maximize the winnings for a good story but miss the critical thinking along the way. Risk=Reward (or massive failure). Just sounds like Mr. Wayne was not big into risk.. Very understandable.

<comment><USER25> Indeed. It calculates what a 10% stake would be worth now, but it is highly unlikely that he would still be a 10% owner even if he had stayed the course. It is not as though Steve Jobs still held 45% of the company at the time of his death.

<comment><USER24> I'm also not convinced the stress of it all played didn't play a part to Steve's illness and eventual death. At 81, Mr. Wayne is still celebrating life.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> We've all given stuff away by making decisions in our lives. We make what we think is the best choice, and then we live with the consequences. Regret doesn't change tomorrow.

That said, were I in Woz or Job's shoes, I would have given this guy a big check at some point, as a thank you. Actually maybe Woz did--neither he nor Wayne seem like folks who would talk about such a thing if had happened. Not likely from Jobs though.

</comment><comment><USER27> As mentioned in this thread, the temptation to ask "what if?" is huge, and we all have built-in cognitive strategies for dealing with it. If this ability didn't exist, coping with non-fatal mistakes could easily overwhelm us and paradoxically become fatal!

Imagine waking up every day knowing that you could have been a billionaire but for a single foolish decision, and having no way to get around that thought. You'd have a very poor quality of life indeed, even if you were perfectly materially comfortable. The fact that he cannot keep an Apple product hints at this; being confronted with a constant reminder would be too painful.

It's a subtle and useful lie to think of yourself or pretty much anyone else as being non-materialistic or enlightened enough as to cheerfully give up billions of dollars in wealth. No doubt if this person was given a second chance with foreknowledge, he would take the deal.

It's only afterward that we cry "sour grapes" in order to reduce our mental struggles to a manageable level.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#.22The_Fo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#.22The_Fox_and_the_Grapes.22)

<comment><USER13> If I were Ron Wayne, I'd take solace in the fact that in 99 out of 100 similar scenarios, my choice would have been the right one. If he's still kicking himself, he needs to understand that he's a victim of survivorship bias. Being "older but wiser" won't help him avoid the same mistake in the future, because it wasn't technically a mistake at the time. He made a rational choice based on the information and experience he had available to draw on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> With my luck, this would have been a story from my life! But as I always say, there are no "should have's" in life; there are "did do" and "didn't do". Life is too unpredictable to think "what if". It reminds me of the Matrix when Neo is in the Oracles kitchen and Neo knocks the vase over after the Oracle told him "Don't worry about the vase." Neo obviously confused says "How did you know I would break it?" and she finishes with "What really is going to bake your noodle is would you have still broken it had I not said anything?" No point in wasting energy on things that never happened.

</comment><comment><USER29> "I said: 'Steve, whatever it is that you want to do, you can do it a lot more easily with money in your pocket. Go ahead and make the money, and do whatever you want to do. Just don't forget what you wanted the money for'.

This was my takeaway. I have a very clear sense of how much is enough in my life. When I get there I'm going to quit my job, and be completely free to just take on work I care to do. I already enjoy the work I do, but I'd love to be fully in control of my own schedule.

</comment><comment><USER30> I wonder what would happen if Gil Amelio stayed as CEO of Apple after the NeXT acquisition. The beige G3 did sell well and helped Apple return to profitablity: [http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/15/business/company- reports-s...](http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/15/business/company-reports- sales-of-g3-computer-lift-apple-back-to-profitability.html)

</comment><comment><USER31> It's hard to tell if he's not materialistic - though he seems happy with the choices he made and in the end, happiness is a choice.

<comment><USER32> I don't consider myself unmaterialistic. I'm happy that I'm comfortable and secure. I don't put too much value on material things but some of them do make my life better. If I could get a ton more money without anything else in my life changing, then sure, I'd take it.

But if that money came with power, a high profile job, I'd have to work a ton, have a ton of stress, change my lifestyle, my main social circles would have to be with other rich people, nearly all the attention I ever got would be from people I can't trust not to want something... just no. I'm happy now and that's not an equilibrium I want to upset. Nothing about the day to day lives of rich, powerful people seems like so much fun as to outweigh the negatives, which if you pay attention, seem to be many.

"The best life is one the gods don't notice."

<comment><USER31> Just to be clear, since it's a bit unclear, you're not the person the is the subject of the article, but a random person responding to the comment I posted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Is he really forgotten at this point? I've been told about the founding of Apple more often than I have the gospel.

Well, the _other_ gospel anyway.

<comment><USER34> Everybody knows about Jobs and Woz, but I hardly ever see mention of the third guy. I'd bet that most Apple fans couldn't come up with the name "Ronald Wayne" without looking it up, and likely don't even realize there was a third.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Wow.... something jumped right out at me in that article.

The photo of Woz & Jobs holding the circuit board. Woz looks like he's jumping for joy, loving every minute of it.

Jobs looks like a grump who couldn't care less and would rather be anywhere else but there. He looks so incredibly unhappy.

</comment><comment><USER36> Seems like this guy has had bad luck in his decisions to sell apply stuff.

<comment><USER37> Seems like he was happy with the decision, he doesn't strike me as particularly materialistic.

<comment><USER38> One doesn't _need_ to be materialistic to feel regret about missing the chance to acquire money. Maybe he has philanthropic goals that will go unmet, maybe he has startup ideas that capital could've helped test, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Is there any term in agreements like that an entrepreneur who chose to quit prematurely shall transfer his/her share at the price of 1 dollar in 1970s?

</comment><comment><USER40> So am I the only one here who knows what Pahrump is (in)famous for?

<comment><USER41> only on this coast</comment></comment>


Testing San Francisco's anti-pee wall [video] - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33768077

<comment><AUTHOR> They're using a water bottle, but AFAICT it doesn't actually seem like it's bouncing back (reflecting) so much as diffusely bouncing off. Has anyone been to the 16th and Mission corner and seen it in person, yet?</comment>


Ask HN: Allow groups of businesses to create ad rings - <AUTHOR>

Just wanted some opinions on this idea. Basically it's a web application that would allow two or more businesses to create a "ring" of ads, similar in style to The Deck (http://decknetwork.net/). The web app would take care of click tracking, displays and provide each business with several code snippets. A good example would be a gym and health restaurant partnership (maybe throwing in a fitness gear store). They would all display ads on each other's site.<p>I'm not sure on a revenue model, but it's definitely there if it takes off (a membership fee or a revenue share). Has anything similar been done before? <comment><USER2> If we're talking about local businesses in the service industry, I rarely see ads on business sites for restaurants or gyms. I would think the biggest hurdle would be getting a sales team to convince the businesses to put this on their website, awareness, and on top of that, telling them to update their sites with code snippets as I don't think most local businesses are technical.

But I do like the idea.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your input</comment></comment>


Apple's Siri Is as Revolutionary as the Mac - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2011/10/apples_siri_is_as_revolutionar.html

<comment><USER2> > [computers cause] degradation of eyesight

Actually, the last time I heard, the evidence was that computer use revealed existing eyesight degradation but did not cause it. Did some new elements enter the picture?

<comment><AUTHOR> [http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/eyestrain/DS01084/DSECTION=...](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/eyestrain/DS01084/DSECTION=symptoms)</comment></comment>


SnapChat 'snubs' Facebook's offer of $3bn - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/13/snapchat_laughs_off_facebook_buyout_offer/

<comment><USER2> Not really snub just decline.

I can see how snapchat gets a lot of use to select friends (350mil msg a day) but how many use it with most of their friends? Seems narrow scope? But maybe thats just me.</comment>


New npm website - <AUTHOR> https://www.npmjs.com/

<comment><USER2> Looks great!

Search could still be vastly improved by adding some sort of "activity" rating that factors in last update with number of recent downloads and sort search results by most active. That way we can make use of well-supported and/or actively maintained modules rather than dead ones.</comment>


Unwired Nation, BlueGrind turning online text into audio - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2007/08/01/unwired-nation-bluegrind-turning-online-text-into-audio/ YC News in the car - could be nice!<p>What about a radio station that reads the top stories on digg or reddit?   <p> <comment><AUTHOR> YC News in the car - could be nice!

What about a radio station that reads the top stories on digg or reddit?</comment>


MySQL founder tries a new software licensing model - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2016/08/19/mysql-founder-tries-a-new-software-licensing-model/ <comment><USER2> +1. BSL sounds really cool. It would help open source communities with funds.</comment>


Ask HN: rules of thumb for titling more difficult HN submissions? - <AUTHOR>

I know many have been complaining about the lack of depth in our current HN articles.  While this is partially a problem of what people post, it is also a problem of how links are titled.  Many quite good articles do get submitted, but they just don't catch the eye of your average HN reader.
If you look at my submission history, you'll see that the better, and more technical articles barely get a vote, whereas a couple more mainstream articles easily hit the front page.  While the mainstream articles are good, I would rather generate interest in the more technical articles and help build up the HN community.
Has anyone been successful in promoting these more beneficial links on HN?  If so, what methods do you think work best?  What kills an article off the bat? <comment><USER2> I took at look at your last two links.

Let's be frank. Both of them are just too long. I went to physics grad school and am friends with some quantum cryptographers, and there's still no way I'm going to read the physics one -- not because it's uninteresting but because I have no time. (Indeed, I'm being dragged out the door right now.)

Ditto the software estimation one. It's a whole research paper. In the words of Bruce Sterling, it's like chloroform on the screen.

If you want to motivate folks to read and upmod on these subjects you have to do some blogging. Write a blog post that cites the paper. Call out some points and tell us why this paper is important. Maybe relate it to other stuff in the field that we know, or should know.

Take a look at an issue of _Nature_. At the front there are a lot of little articles that summarize the content and the significance of the real research papers elsewhere in the journal. Try linking to something like that, even if you have to write it yourself. It is hard to do well (I co-wrote one once, and it was a lot of work) but practice makes perfect, and even a quick job is better than nothing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, well received critique. I've avoided blogging about articles before because it seems like linkjacking, but you've given a good rationale for the practice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> You should title them here with what they are titled there. If a title doesn't exist, give them one that is objective and not sensational.

There is no real way to get people interested in an article you think they should be.

<comment><USER4> _There is no real way to get people interested in an article you think they should be._

That's not true. A good title will get an article several times more attention. I've found that the most effective titles (a) say what the article is about, and (b) appeal directly to the reader.

For example, the original title of "Why Smart People Have Bad Ideas" was "Copper and Tin." It was a bogus move to name the thing after a metaphor I was proud of, and I got what I deserved. Who's going to click on a link titled "Copper and Tin?" You can't tell what it's going to be about, whatever it does turn out to be about probably won't affect you.

The titles that seem to work the best are ones that to answer some question the reader cares about. E.g. "Why you procrastinate." The most effective of all seem to be the ones that promise (usually falsely) to cover _all_ of some question, and embody this promise in a number: "The 7 reasons you procrastinate."

You don't necessarily want to sink to using such linkbaitish titles-- especially here, please-- but they certainly work.

<comment><USER3> I suppose I was not clear. What I meant was that there is no definite way to get people interested with the title. If they are not interested in the article itself, the title can only do so much.

That said, I agree on the point of answering a question the reader cares about. I believe I have seen some good examples of that here on HN.</comment></comment></comment>


Sll – strip long lines from grep output - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/kevinburke/sll <comment><USER2> Two of the other million ways to do this are:

        perl -ne 'print if length()<1024'
        awk 'length($0)<1024'

Note that if the last line is not newline terminated then the sll and the awk solutions will add a newline, while the perl one will not.

<comment><USER3> The equivalent way to preserve the newline semantics in Perl these days is this:

        perl -lnE 'say if length()<1024'

<comment><USER2> You and your new-fangled "perl5". In my day we didn't have "say", or "use", or these fancy "refererences". :)</comment></comment></comment>


The War on 'Free' Clicks: Think Nobody Clicks on Google Ads? Think Again - <AUTHOR> http://venturefizz.com/blog/war-free-clicks-think-nobody-clicks-google-ads-think-again

<comment><USER2> Okay let's break this down:

1\. Wordstream is a PPC (Paid Search) (SEM) service company in Boston

2\. Wordstream concludes that Google is leading an " Organic Search Listing Smack-Down" and Paid Search is beating out Organic "2:1" for "Commercial Intent" searches.

3\. Wordstream wants to market this message to prospective customers, customers with "Commercial Intent" if you will.

4\. Wordstream decides to use no less than 3 of the most over-used SEO (ORGANIC) tactics to market this message:

Tactic 1: Guest Blogging (on VentureFizz, BetaNews) Tactic 2: Infographic (<http://www.wordstream.com/articles/google-ads>) see the giant embed code with no less than three links back to Wordstream) Tactic 3: Over-Abundance of In-context backlinks: There are 14 links back to Wordstream in that one article.

Very funny.

</comment><comment><USER3> Odd. The infographic doesn't load in Chrome 20.0.1132.57 m on Win7. I thought it was AdBlockPlus, but when disabled it still doesn't show.

It does load in Firefox 14.0.1 on Win 7.

<comment><USER4> I didn't know there was an infographic until i saw your comment. Disabling adblock in Chrome 20.0.1132.57 on win7 x64, shows it. Specifically the "EasyList" filter list.

Edit: even more specifically, the img src was google-ads.png which matches EasyList's "/google-ads." filter

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wish this information wasn't in a huge, confusing infographic.</comment>


Batterymakers See a Big Break Coming – No, Seriously This Time - T-A http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-16/batterymakers-see-a-big-break-coming-no-seriously-this-time <comment><AUTHOR> I wish I could get all journalists into one room for a couple of hours and teach them the difference between energy and power, and what a watt and a watt-hour are.

In most of this article we have "storage capacity" being reported in GW. In the last paragraph, though, the article switches without explanation to MWh. <facepalm>

In fact, we want _both_ numbers: instantaneous power capability in (some multiple of) watts, and storage capacity in (some multiple of) watt-hours. These are different numbers, just as the HP rating of the engine in your car and the size of its gas tank are different numbers.

I suspect people would be less confused if we used joules instead of watt- hours for energy, and then reported power in joules per second. Yes, 1W = 1J/s, but that's the thing: intuitively people expect the base unit to be an _amount_ , not a _rate_. Then instead of "1.3GW", an article like this would say "1.3GJ/s", and it would be (relatively) obvious that that's a rate of power delivery, not a storage capacity. Or instead of "65MWh" it would say "234GJ" (the conversion factor is 3600, there being 3600 seconds in an hour).

Oh well. I know I'm preaching to the choir here on HN. Just had to rant a little :-)</comment>


Lanyrd launches to change the conference landscape using Twitter - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/apps/2011/01/31/lanyrd-launches-to-change-the-conference-landscape-using-twitter/

<comment><USER2> I've been watching Lanyrd for a while now, and I think it has great potential. Anything that can bring some sort of order to the world of conferences would be a great thing - just ask any academic that needs to be on dozens of mailing lists to keep up with upcoming calls-for-papers. Also the social aspect could be great for networking.

It will, however, only be as useful as its coverage of conferences, so let's hope it gets adopted by conference organisers and attendees. Anyway, I wish them every success.

</comment><comment><USER3> Awesome, very glad to see Simon's project take off.</comment>


Ask HN: How to convince someone to do A when they really want to do B? - <AUTHOR>

I am trying to recruit an engineer who really wants to do game development, 3d graphics, etc. We are mainly a Python/Django shop as far as back-end is concerned. There is some Java stuff to be done down the line but it won't be open for a few months at least. My selling point is that the stuff he will learn will be pretty much transferable. He will get to be working on something really cool that touches a couple of thousands people in a very significant way. We are making impact at a relatively larger scale on each and every user of our product. But this person is so much tied to a very specific domain. What would you do if you were recruiting someone like this person. I come from a web dev background so I have always been open to learning new tech with product goals first in mind. <comment><USER2> Why do you want this particular guy so badly?

Game development is for suckers, but you're not going to have any luck convincing him. Give up and move on.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've known him for last 8 years and we can work well together. But lately he's been a lot into game development stuff. And he is pretty smart and humble.</comment></comment>


UK's attractiveness for renewables investment plummets to all-time low - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/10/uks-attractiveness-for-renewables-investment-plummets-to-all-time-low <comment><AUTHOR> "UK routinely topped annual league table run by Ernst & Young but has slid to 13th place due to government's 'non-committal approach'"</comment>


Here's how broken today's web will feel in Chrome's secure-by-default future - <AUTHOR> https://www.troyhunt.com/heres-how-broken-todays-web-will-feel-in-chromes-secure-by-default-future/ <comment><USER2> Let's Encrypt is a cure for all SSL woes.</comment>


Review my startup: ShowMetheLove.co - Quantified Self for Love - <AUTHOR> http://lovetank.heroku.com

<comment><USER2> I'm getting lots of 404s on your site - might be worth removing a few links first :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! We threw them up there initially for a startup weekend event. Definitely a good idea to link them or kill them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'd change the name, thought it was a site for meth addicts initially.

<comment><AUTHOR> interesting, it does look like Show-Meth-Love at a quick glance. well, at least it will SEO nicely for meth addicts...</comment></comment>


Update on Global Google Cloud Networking Incident #18012 - <AUTHOR> https://status.cloud.google.com/incident/cloud-networking/18012#new <comment><USER2> I knew it wasn't a DDOS... So much fake news anymore.

I guess Breitbart was selling a pack of lies to it's following (my boss).

[http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/17/drudge-report-ap- offline-d...](http://dailycaller.com/2018/07/17/drudge-report-ap-offline-ddos- attack/)</comment>


Canadian oil companies no longer need to have relief-well plans - <AUTHOR> http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Canadian+companies+longer+need+have+relief+well+plans/3110577/story.htm

<comment><USER2> Try this link: [http://www.vancouversun.com/Canadian+companies+longer+need+h...](http://www.vancouversun.com/Canadian+companies+longer+need+have+relief+well+plans/3110577/story.html)</comment>


Facebook Ads Are Effective, Just Not Relevant, Yet - <AUTHOR> http://codefury.net/2012/05/facebook-ads-are-effective-just-not-relevant-yet/

<comment><USER2> The only thing I would disagree with is the click-through rate of ads in general. Sites with effective placement and targeting of ads (which would include the top ads in a Google search) easily see click-through rates of 5-7%, in the case of that top spot on Google, the ads I've run were easily above 10%.</comment>


THIS is why we invest in science. This. - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2012/03/21/this-is-why-we-invest-in-science-this/

<comment><USER2> I hate to uh "pour cold water on this", but if you follow the link to the NASA site: <http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2011/ps_5.html>

What it actually says is "HMA incorporated elements derived from ORBITEC's propulsion work into its design for fire suppression, and the improvements significantly enhanced the performance of HMA's UHP systems. For example, the company studied how to better manage the flow of a liquid to create an energetic blanket of fine water droplets."

It does not actually justify the claim that the vortex flow of propellant has anything to do with the firehose optimizations.

Science people are always so hypercritical when it comes to surprising claims made by non-scientists. They shouldn't give a free pass to Discover magazine and NASA to make such a stretch.

<comment><USER3> I would expect controlling of propellant flow into a combustion chamber has many lessons that can be applied to other fluid dynamics problems. And it says right there that is what they did:

"HMA incorporated elements derived from ORBITEC's propulsion work into its design for fire suppression."

Sure it probably isn't the vortex itself by the sounds of it but there are plenty of other problems they would have had to solve to get the working engine design.

So there is no stretch as I read it, though I appreciate your skepticism as often these things are blown out of proportion by the media.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I agree with the general sentiment (more money to NASA) but I'd point out just because it pays doesn't mean it's the best use of that money. There might be better investments.

</comment><comment><USER5> I think research funding in general could take some cues from the Y Combinator funding model, in the sense that if you give smart people money and time, they'll discover/create amazing things.

You would think the value and return you get from investment in science would be apparent to anyone living in the modern age.

</comment><comment><USER6> I agree. But still, for that much money, they could put up a youtube video of the experiment :)

</comment><comment><USER7> Nothing to discus, I just agree</comment>


How Language and Math Intersect: Chinese v. English - <AUTHOR> http://larrycheng.com/2009/10/07/how-language-and-math-intersect-chinese-v-english/

<comment><USER2> _Some researchers hypothesize that one possible reason some Asian cultures show proficiency in math at an early age ironically has nothing to do with math – it has to do with language._

Which researchers? I see no references in that post. What is this, appeal to imaginary authority?

How many other languages, besides English and Chinese, can the author count in? What he describes is not so earth shattering, plenty of other languages are uniform and generative wrt to counting words.</comment>


Nassim Taleb: "The Government Debt Is Becoming A Pure Ponzi Scheme" - <AUTHOR> http://www.zerohedge.com/article/nassim-taleb-government-debt-becoming-pure-ponzi-scheme#comments

<comment><USER2> _Sigh_ Just because something is nothing more than a scheme of money redistribution doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. Loans and insurance, for example, are legitimate and legal schemes of money redistribution. A Ponzi scheme is an act of fraud where a money redistribution scheme masquerades as an investment scheme. A Ponzi scheme involves confidence tricks and mis- representation.

"Social Security" - technically FICA, the Federal Insurance Contributions Act tax - is an insurance scheme, principally of OASDI (Old Age Survivorship and Disability Insurance) and Medicare (a health care subsidy for old people). Call it mismanaged or misguided or even "un-American" if you like, but it isn't fraud, and it isn't a Ponzi scheme.

</comment><comment><USER3> The real story: [http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2010/pi20100...](http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2010/pi2010078_530571.htm)

The blog adds nothing.</comment>


Ask HN: What does it take to launch a successful Kickstarter Campaign? - <AUTHOR>

My first ever Kickstarter campaign failed two weeks ago. It was disappointing, but I learned a lot about what I did wrong and what I could have done better.
For example: Timing. I was trying to launch a summer clothing brand, but due to Amazon Payments delays the Kickstarter page didn't launch until mid-June. This forced me to move back delivery times, and turned a lot of customers away. Choose the right demographic. Certain demographics are more likely to succeed than others *Have a large Facebook or Twitter fan base. When you already have a large following, they'll make it much easier to get coverage and social proof that convinces other customers who are unfamiliar with your brand to buy
For all the HNers out there, what do you think it takes to fund a successful Kickstarter campaign? <comment><USER2> Some friends of mine just completed their successful Kickstarter campaign for Sunglasses with a Bottle opener - [http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2093465669/jackhawk-9000...](http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2093465669/jackhawk-9000-titanium- bottle-opener-sunglasses) and from the feedback that I got from them it was about the video and the outreach that they did during the campaign.

They created facebook groups, updated the kickstarter page and built a cultish following out of family and friends. They also had enough level in which people could show support and then share the link on facebook to expand their network.

But having something that solves a perceived problem, having it close to completion or "just needing the money for production" seems to work because people know that they will get the product.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, that's a great Kickstarter page. Really polished pictures and interesting descriptions. Not too much text either. They let their product do the talking.

One of the things I underestimated with mine was how important it is to not only have a video, but to make it look professional. I think the video is where products either shine or are tossed into the "mediocre" category in a potential backers mind.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'd guess it's the video. You've got about 3.5 minutes to knock it out of the park. Have a dynamite video. If all you bring is a text blurb and some sketchup drawings, you may as well stay home.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's true. I think another way the video distinguishes good projects from bad ones it that it takes planning to make a good video. It's not something that just happens overnight, and the projects that take the time to plan out a great video also tend to be projects that planned out a great product/marketing plan.</comment></comment>


Membership in the Communist Party of China: Who Is Being Admitted and How? - <AUTHOR> https://daily.jstor.org/communist-party-of-china/ <comment><USER2> President Xi has dramatically changed the communist party's composition. His excuse for purging members is curtailing corruption, including bribery.</comment>


Top Keyword Price Nears $100 Per Click - <AUTHOR> http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=115431 <comment><USER2> I'm devoting to the next 10 minutes to clicking on all the mesothelioma ads in the Google SERPs. $90 per click? Hah.

</comment><comment><USER3> That is crazy. Believable, but crazy nonetheless</comment>


D.O.J. Loses Lindsey Graham in Encryption Fight - <AUTHOR> https://www.districtsentinel.com/doj-loses-lindsey-graham-encryption-fight/ <comment><USER2> The article suggests Graham's views on "digital privacy" are evolving, yet his opposition seems to have little to do with the issue of privacy.</comment>


'Roe vs. Wade' Plaintiff Was Paid to Switch Sides in Abortion Fight, Doc Reveals - <AUTHOR> https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2020/05/19/roe-vs-wade-plaintiff-was-paid-to-switch-sides-in-abortion-fight-documentary-reveals/#1b4e67ae7c08 <comment><USER2> This is a good reminder that sometimes the plaintiff in a major decision like this often doesn't have the strongest ideological link to the issue at hand, but the facts of their specific case made it the best exemplar to bring before the Supreme Court.

If you read about the plaintiffs in famous cases like this and others, the defendant is much different than the picture we imagine.

For example, In Plessy vs Ferguson, the railroad company opposed the idea of racial segregation of rail cars, because it meant they had to spend more money on cars for their train, and they (along with others) recruited Plessy and staged the arrest of Plessy in hopes of getting the law overturned. They even went so far as to inform the arresting party of the specific charges to bring so they'd have the best case to challenge it.

<comment><USER3> > This is a good reminder that sometimes the plaintiff in a major decision > like this often doesn't have the strongest ideological link to the issue at > hand ...

That's a misreading of TFA. It's not that she ever opposed abortion rights. TFA makes it clear that the just did it for the money.

<comment><USER4> Which is what the guy said.

<comment><USER3> I get that. But I still think that there's a distinction between "not feel strongly" and "be desperate".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wonder if there is a name for this sort of behavior, which seems common to evangelical Christians, where older folks are coerced to question their earlier works in life in order to try to effect some appearance of "deathbed conversion" or similar. Famously, a similar happening occurred to Charles Darwin while he was in decline [0].

There may be no good antidote for this. If Roe could not be unwavering in her convictions, or could not maintain the optics of being unwavering, then who possibly can? How could we better prevent evangelical Christians from lying about these false recantations?

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth,_Lady_Hope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth,_Lady_Hope)

<comment><USER6> > If Roe could not be unwavering in her convictions, or could not maintain the > optics of being unwavering, then who possibly can?

Which convictions are you referring to specifically, since she showed both sides?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The more I learn about what goes on in the world, the more and more I find out how staged everything is.</comment>


Ask HN: sell me a good domain name? - <AUTHOR>

I know HN'ers sit on a lot of unused domain names. I need one for a new consumer product. A .com Requirements:
1. Pronouncable
2. Spellable.
3. Somewhat easy to remember.
4. (optional) doesn't end in an "r"
I'll pay 500$ (or send you an iPad or something) for a decent domain and you'll get my thanks :) Contact info in profile. <comment><USER2> Most domain names you consider good now are not good because of the name, but because of what it was used for. Domain names, in and of themselves, are generally pretty worthless (unless you happen to own one of the rare few) and I think it would be much better for you to work on your sites content and then finding a suitable name after.

Besides, what use is a domain name which follows your criteria but is meaningless in the context of the product? Build the product, find it a name, name the domain something related to the product name or purpose. Save your $500 for somehting else.

Thats my opinion, at least.

Incidentally, I'm willing to part with enemynetwork.com for $500 (or an ipad) :-D

</comment><comment><USER3> I'll save you the $500.

[http://www.company-name-generator.com/advanced-company- name-...](http://www.company-name-generator.com/advanced-company-name- generator)

Here are a few from that link:

Puvsi.com Fivozu.com Tihha.com Sogki.com Sijaa.com

Not great on your #1 but it's all about how you brand it really.

</comment><comment><USER4> Hi there. How about pludily.com? (I'm a holder of a few domain names for apps I decided not to pursue, they're short and I find them elegant.)

Or add some details like keywords for your app. Maybe I have something more suited.

</comment><comment><USER5> Can you be a bit more specific? Surely, angrypandas.com won't work?

</comment><comment><USER6> I decided not to renew vyrle.com a few days ago. It may be available on godaddy if you like it.

</comment><comment><USER7> What are some examples of what you would like (if they were available)?

</comment><comment><USER8> scarytechnologies.com and scarytechnologies.co.uk

</comment><comment><USER9> any subject hints?

</comment><comment><USER10> Can you give more details?

I have up on the block:

flightr.com jotbox.me jotbox.im branchdb.com witjot.com cirrostrat.us healthstrat.us medstrat.us imbued.us volitical.org

I am pretty good at thinking up names depending on your context.... gimme some dets.</comment>


How to Block Windows 10 Creators Update - <AUTHOR> https://www.tecklyfe.com/block-defer-windows-10-creators-update/ <comment><USER2> Remember when we used to come to tech forums to find the new updates, rather than learn how to avoid them? It just occurred to me that I literally camped out for some early OS updates. How things have changed.

<comment><USER3> I mean up until recently the fervor over OSX updates was ridiculous. I understand that people want to not be bothered by updates, but not updating is the reason that we have so many security holes.

<comment><USER4> The problem is that there is very little way to opt out of new/changed features.

People hold up on doing updates because they do not know what will break, and they need the computer to work 24/7 these days to stay in contact not just with work but also with family and friends.

<comment><USER3> I can't think of the last time something I was doing was broken by a Windows update.

<comment><USER4> Maybe not you or me personally, but MS has all too often pushed out updates that blow up on various computers.

And it is not only the major updates.

I have a laptop here, built around AMD parts.

when AMD introduced their Crimson driver set, they also discontinued support for the APU part of this laptop.

But still MS tries to be helpful and push out updated driver files, completely ignorant of the issue.

Thus at random intervals i can expect my external monitor to stop working until i go into the device manager and roll back the driver for the APU.

Edit: bah, scratch the part about "and me" up there. Thinking back i had to grab some tool at one point and actually blacklist a patch from MS because it would attempt to install, reboot, fail to come up a few times, then roll back, reboot, come back up, and then try to install again a day or two later.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As a Linux user, I've ignored all news of this update until I saw this headline. Why might one want to block this particular update?

<comment><USER6> I've used it, and I'm not sure either. The author of this also doesn't seem to know why:

> I've been using the Windows 10 Creators Update for a few months now through > the Insider Preview program, and I haven't had any major issues.

Sounds like this is just baseless W10 hate.

<comment><USER7> I think it's the vestige of a time when people were in control of the software running on their computer. Their interest in blocking the update is directly proportional to the difficulty in doing so.

I think it's healthy to oppose certain mandates in principle even if the particular mandate is good. If we lose the ability or knowledge to stop an update, we have lost some freedom.

It's not too hard to imagine MS getting hacked and a truly malicious update being pushed.

The hate you speak of is the hate for the principle of losing control, not hate for MS itself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Why would anyone want to block the update? I updated mine without any hassle. Took only about 10 minutes or less to finish installing. I had to reconfigure my custom context menu and explorer shortcuts though.

<comment><USER9> > I updated mine without any hassle.

> I had to reconfigure my custom context menu and explorer shortcuts though

Maybe this is why

<comment><USER8> Well, this is easy to do using WinAero[1] software and I didn't really think of it as a "hassle".

[1] [http://winaero.com/comment.php?comment.news.1836](http://winaero.com/comment.php?comment.news.1836)

<comment><USER9> I had to do zero work and didn't need to download any software when I didn't update.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm happy with the update. I grabbed it the moment it was released and haven't had any issues.

</comment><comment><USER11> I will say that the Creator's Update definitely still has some rough edges. Users will be better off waiting a month or two to upgrade to it.

</comment><comment><USER12> > How To Block Windows 10 Creators Update on Professional or Enterprise

Just use WSUS you silly goose.

</comment><comment><USER13> I formatted my device so I could get the update earlier. Why would anyone using windows NOT want the update?

</comment><comment><USER14> Surely "Creators Update" should have an apostrophe in it somewhere?

<comment><USER15> It should really be called the "Creators' Update". My guess is either Microsoft's marketing people don't like apostrophes or someone at Microsoft doesn't want creators to get the idea that they have ownership of the update.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> > _Go to KB 3073930 and download Microsoft's Wushowhide tool. (Click the link > marked "Download the 'Show or hide updates' troubleshooter package now.") > Double-click on Wushowhide.diagcab to run it. Click the link marked > Advanced. Uncheck the box marked "Apply repairs automatically." Click Next. > Wushowhide will run for a long time._

Windows is so user friendly ;-)

I migrated my windows app to Wine+Linux and never looked back.

<comment><USER17> Yeah, I've never understood why ticking boxes in hidden subsections of myriad mysterious configuration apps was generally regarded to be more user friendly than changing a parameter in a text file.

<comment><USER18> It is about feature discovery. One can poke around the GUI and see what is possible or one can read the manual about options. I suppose the typical user prefers to poke around. Of course for the power users changing a text file is the way to go.

<comment><USER19> It really sucks when the option isn't in a GUI or a text file though, as is the case here.

<comment><USER18> Ah I see. There are two issues here: making a configuration option hidden or accessible and making the change interface GUI or text based. I only commented on the second aspect. Depending on one's point of view making a configuration option hidden is either keeping users from shooting themselves in the foot or denying users freedom to control their own machines the way they see fit.

<comment><USER17> Sometimes configuration is spread across different GUI apps, or just poorly organized within a single app. The equivalent is a problem with text configuration, too of course.

What I think of is things like msconfig.exe, a fairly obscure program that controls a lot of useful and diverse features for Windows, but I didn't even know about it until I'd been a window user for years as for some reason it wasn't included in the control panel until recently.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Why would you want to do this? Other than bugginess, but that's always there with Windows 10. Is there anything new that's bad?

<comment><USER21> I think it's the addition of adverts in explorer, although from my understanding, they are completely optional [1].

[1] [https://betanews.com/2017/04/10/disable-ads- windows-10-creat...](https://betanews.com/2017/04/10/disable-ads- windows-10-creators-update/)

<comment><USER20> There are advertisements everywhere in Windows 10 already: the start menu, the lock screen, the notification centre. That's just another brick in the wall.

<comment><USER21> The only place I have seen them pop up so far is in the lock screen. Maybe I've seen more, but just overlooked them.

The lock screen ads only show when you use the daily Bing images. You can either set your own lock screen image, or click "I don't like this image" and keep doing that every time an ad image shows.

<comment><USER22> You don't have start menu items for Get Office and Candy Crush?

Also, I believe some of the pre-installed bloatware have ads (Money, Food, Weather, and maybe others).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Nix 2.0 Released - <AUTHOR> https://nixos.org/nix/manual/#ssec-relnotes-2.0 <comment><USER2> I love the core concepts behind Nix, and have great respect for their engineering abilities. However I am skeptical of their ability to achieve broad adoption beyond their current community of passionate experts.

There are two reasons for my skepticism:

1\. User experience. Unless you're one of the "passionate experts", the Nix user experience is pretty terrible. The learning curve is punishing compared to competing systems.

2\. Elitist culture. In my experience, the Nix community is too smart for its own good. Their technical foundation is so far ahead of mainstream systems, and their technical design so satisfying to passionate experts, that they've forgotten how to live a day in the shoes of a mere mortal. Try pointing out flaws in the user experience, or the need to offer more pragmatic ways to migrate existing systems, and you will be met mostly with derision and reminders of Nix's superior engineering. But superior engineering is not everything. If you want to spread the amazing potential of Nix to everyone, then you need to compromise with a flawed, imperfect world. You need to meet users half-way, and guide them to the promised land, instead of waiting for them to show up on their own. Otherwise someone will come along that will do it for you.

All this is eerily similar to what happened to functional programming communities.

<comment><USER3> This, 100%.

Pain points I've run into:

1\. Lack of clarity as to how language/application package managers interact with Nix (pip, stack, Vundle). Pretty much every time I've asked about this, I've been told to go use `nix-shell` or to install things through Nix. Increasingly, when I get odd behavior with applications I install through Nix, my first resort is to uninstall the Nix version and install it from apt; it might be a bit older, but I'm sure it'll work as expected. I've went through the apt package -> Nix package -> apt package cycle three times from what I remember off the top of my head, with python/ipython, Haskell tooling, and Vim.

2\. Nix on Ubuntu feels like a second class citizen. Things that interact with graphics drivers often don't work properly, e.g. video players. (I understand that there are technical reasons why this is the case, but there's no warning that this is the case.) There only appears to be online package search for NixOS ([https://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html#](https://nixos.org/nixos/packages.html#)) and not for Nix on other platforms. Nox helps, but it doesn't seem to be the same feature wise (no ability to see the info you get by clicking the package name) and is also slow.

3\. In general package quality is not great for less frequently used packages. Inkscape was missing potrace for a while. Rarely used packages go unmaintained.

4\. Poor CLI. Needing to pass `-A` to a lot of commands to use them the "right way" smells of a poorly thought out design. No feedback or suggestions if you type the wrong thing to `nix-env -e`. It looks like there are major changes to this in 2.0, so this might have been improved.

Despite being someone who's gotten their toes wet contributing to nixpkgs, I'm likely not going to be installing Nix when I upgrade from Ubuntu 16.04 to 18.04.

<comment><USER4> I built Darch to give me what I crave from NixOS.

Immutability.

[https://godarch.com/](https://godarch.com/)

<comment><USER3> What does... how is this relevant to anything I said?

<comment><USER5> If I may rush to the commenter's rescue: Darch addresses your issues with NixOS by combining a familiar set of tools (Arch Linux) with stateless architecture. Its a fantastic welding of extreme package availability and best-in-class documentation with declarative dependability.

<comment><USER3> It's not clear to me that this really solves the same problems that Nix does.

I'd imagine this solution inherits any problems that pacman has. The Arch wiki states that "if two packages depend on the same library, upgrading only one package might also upgrade the library (as a dependency), which might then break the other package which depends on an older version of the library." ([https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/System_maintenance](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/System_maintenance)) This is one of the problems Nix does not have by design; in fact Nix lets you mix and match packages painlessly.

This also doesn't seem to allow unprivileged users to install packages, which is kind of a side benefit of using Nix.

Docker-esque solutions' issues with reproducibility are well known; I look at [https://godarch.com/concepts/images/](https://godarch.com/concepts/images/), particularly how packages are installed:

      #!/usr/bin/env bash
      pacman -S steam --noconfirm

and I see the same issues that [https://blog.wearewizards.io/why-docker-is- not-the-answer-to...](https://blog.wearewizards.io/why-docker-is-not-the- answer-to-reproducible-research-and-why-nix-may-be) warns of. Heck the author even admits this is the case in an adjacent comment: "I want a machine that can be declared and rebuilt deterministically _(at least semi- deterministically, rolling distro and all)_ " (emphasis mine).

Also, frankly, I don't want to run my personal computer like a server, with complete immutability and the need to build fat image files every time I want to try out an additional program. That seems to me like a workflow that's better suited for servers where spending a few minutes for a deploy isn't a blocking operation, and where stateless service design is considered best practice.

<comment><USER4> > if two packages depend on the same library, upgrading only one package might > also upgrade the library

Yes, you are inheriting the nuances of whatever package manager you choose. Maybe another distro can give you a truly fixed package versions? You can also use apt to pin versions. This isn't something that Darch introduced, but also, it isn't something it solves. So yes, if you need 100% deterministic, Nix is your guy. I don't think this is a big issue though on Ubuntu systems, or most non-rolling distros. Their apt updates are typically well tested and don't bump major versions.

> need to build fat image files every time I want to try out an additional > program

You can install your packages and use them when you like, without requiring a rebuild. Hell, that is even part of my workflow for some applications like docker. I have dotfiles with a "install-docker" and "install-vmware" aliases that installs it whenever I need it, instead of baking it into images.

> That seems to me like a workflow that's better suited for servers where > spending a few minutes for a deploy isn't a blocking operation, and where > stateless service design is considered best practice.

I disagree. If this was the case, then why Nix then? Obviously, stateless is valuable. I have multiple machines that I perform common tasks on. I hate having to always manage the updates when I get back to each one of them. With Darch, I can deploy one single image to all devices, and be confident they will never drift in installed packages/configuration. I never again have to ask my self "what machine am I on again?". Stateless may be the definitive way to run servers, but that by no means restricts it to only servers. I have been running Darch for a few months now, and I find it incredibly useful and calming.

<comment><USER3> > So yes, if you need 100% deterministic, Nix is your guy.

There are two orthogonal problems here: a lack of package isolation and nondeterminism.

Nix isolates packages, such that updating one package has no impact on any other packages (with unavoidable exceptions like the graphics driver, presumably).

You're right that package isolation isn't much of a problem on non-rolling distros. One of the benefits of Nix is that you get some of the stability and predictability of an LTS distro with the freshness of a rolling distro when desired, without having to deal with package conflicts.

Incidentally, Nix doesn't need to be used in a deterministic manner. In fact, I don't think most desktop users of Nix care too much about determinism for most packages they run. I certainly don't; I'm happy to follow along with whatever arrives in my channel. Nix has features that support determinism, and I'm certainly glad they exist for when I end up needing them, but they're not necessarily why people use Nix.

> Obviously, stateless is valuable.

When I said "stateless", I was referring to the whole "cattle, not pets" view of servers, where the running state of any particular server is unimportant, with nothing in the filesystem being of value. I was arguing that needing to build a new image and reboot in order to change which packages are installed are a poor fit for the desktop use case, where frequent reboots are much more inconvenient than for the server use case.

I'm not sure what taohansen meant when they used the word "stateless"; they seem to mean something different when they say that.

Anyways, this point is not really applicable anymore, since you've stated:

> You can install your packages and use them when you like, without requiring > a rebuild.

Presumably if you install additional packages uncontrolled by your tooling, then your systems can start to drift away from each other.

Nix does not have this compromise; there's no build step. At any given point in time you can reproduce whatever configuration you have on one machine on another machine, regardless of how piecemeal you arrived at that configuration.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have been using nix for a while to build binary packages for crashcart[1] and I really love the premise of isolated source-based builds.

Unfortunately, over time I've become quite frustrated with the pull-everything from the internet model. If you are building packages from scratch each time instead of pulling down cached version using the nix command, the build breaks quite often.

Mostly it is silly stuff like the source package disappearing from the net. A particularly egregious offender is the named.root[2] file being updated, which will cause everything to fail to build until the sha is updated in the build def.

I don't know that there is a great solution for this problem. Maybe there needs to be a CI system that does from scratch build of all of the packages every day and automatically files bugs. Alternatively, a cache of sources and not just built packages could ease the pain. This issue probably affects ver few nix users, but it has demoted my love of nix down to "still likes but is somewhat annoyed by".

[1]: [https://github.com/oracle/crashcart](https://github.com/oracle/crashcart) [2]: [https://www.internic.net/domain/named.root](https://www.internic.net/domain/named.root)

<comment><USER7> I've not tried Nix but this seems like a huge oversight if there is no local cache?

Not everyone is blessed with unlimited gigabit fiber.

Edit: Seems like I was wrong, and I'm happy about it. :)

<comment><USER8> If you use a content-addressable scheme (fetchurl with sha256, for example), it will retain the source archives until you run garbage collect.

If you use builtins.fetchTarball, I don't think this is the case.

Since this all uses CAS, you can use the nix prefetch scripts to import an arbitrary file:// or other URI into the nix store.

<comment><USER9> fetchTarball now also supports an optional sha256 argument. It'll then be used indefinitely without checking for changes after the TTL expires.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Hurray!

I love Nix and I have been looking forward to this new makeover of the UI with the 'nix' command. It seems like the original command line usages developed incrementally over time, making them quirky and inconsistent, and so it is really welcome to have them redone based on long experience. (Thanks, Nix hackers!)

Seeing this released as Nix 2.0 is a really lovely surprise for me this morning :).

</comment><comment><USER11> I guess this is a good place to plug the fairly new bash completion support for Nix (including Nix 2.0)[1]. For those like me who can't stand using a cli without completion.

[1] [https://github.com/hedning/nix-bash- completions](https://github.com/hedning/nix-bash-completions)

</comment><comment><USER12> > _It introduces a new command named nix, which is intended to eventually > replace all nix-_ * _commands with a more consistent and better designed > user interface_

This is pretty nice. I've been using nix on my Mac for more than a year now, it works well on mac. But the separated commands are not easy to remember and the help documentation is also separated. This change really improves command line UX

</comment><comment><USER13> Heh- after a many years haitus from running any kind of UNIX/Linux at home, I was thinking about installing a Linux based distro and NixOS was near the top of my list to try. How does this 2.0 Nix release effect a new install of NixOS- should I wait a bit for a corresponding overhaul of NixOS to come out? I suspect theoretically it's not necessary, but wondering if NixOS will be tracking this Nix release in some way shortly... Anyone know?

<comment><USER14> I upgraded my personal laptop to NixOS 18.03 (currently still nixos-unstable; the release branch hasn't been cut) a week ago and I've had no problems

You can switch which version of Nix you're using whenever you want, and you can install multiple versions of Nix side-by-side if you want to, just like with any other package. To install Nix 2.0 on an older release of Nixpkgs/NixOS, just use the package `nixUnstable`. You can install it with `nix-env` if you want to try it out right now.

The only real differences between a typical upgrade and upgrading between releases are:

1\. You'll need more storage space for the course of the upgrade, because most of your dependencies have been updated.

2\. You might have to change your config up a little, because a few packages have been removed, renamed, or are out of date.

You still get all the nice rollback features that you're used to, and if Nix 1.x is part of your old system profile and 2.0 part of your new one, when you roll back, Nix will roll back, too.

To more directly answer your question: NixOS 18.03 will indeed include Nix 2.0.

<comment><USER13> Thanks.

Is there any idea about the release date for 18.03 (or 18.0X, whatever is 2.0 based)?

<comment><USER14> .03 means March, and that's as much as I know.

<comment><USER15> More precisely end of march: [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/nix- devel/9sps8NLdwI...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/nix- devel/9sps8NLdwIY)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It looks like they're at least attempting to work towards user friendliness, which is by far my biggest complaint.

My other big complaint is that when something goes wrong its damn near impossible to figure it out. Trying to figure out why I couldn't get postgres working with postgis was nightmarish last year sometime when I last tried nixos.

I'm still really optimistic that this will someday replace arch for me. I just don't know _when_

</comment><comment><USER17> Finally, a better command-line interface!

Hopefully, this means I can stop using the website search for packages.

<comment><USER18> Have you tried the 'nox' package?

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> As a nix user for several years this is pretty exciting. I hadn't been following the 2.0 development, but I was really hoping to see a mention of support for something like a .gitignore equivalent when hashing directories from the filesystem. Seems that that isn't in this release :(

<comment><USER10> Have you seen the library function cleanSource() and related routines? I use these for excluding files (e.g. by filename extension) from being visible in builds. This might suit your use case too.

[https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/lib/sources.nix](https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/lib/sources.nix)

<comment><USER19> Yeah, and I use cleanSource, but I find it to be pretty obtuse and full of edge cases.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> That's a really impressive list of contributors. 99 if I've counted correctly.

</comment><comment><USER21> It appears that by using a CoW filesystem like Btrfs I can have some of the same advantages of using Nix:

\- Parallel installation of multiple OSes sharing the same storage pool

\- Snapshot/rollback

How does using Nix compare to using a CoW filesystem such as Btrfs or Zfs?

<comment><USER22> The main difference is that functional package management lets you _declare_ the system state. Free rollbacks are a consequence of being able to fully describe the system state.

With a file system the storage pool is dumb and all meaning of higher-order abstractions (such as packages) is lost.

You don't use functional package management _just_ for deduplication, but in order to be able to declare and reason about state.

(I work on Guix, which is an implementation of functional package management, but with different abstractions.)

<comment><USER23> What are the advantages of guix vs nix?

<comment><USER22> As one of the co-maintainers of GNU Guix I'm obviously biased, but here's what I consider some important unique features of Guix:

\- Guix is all written in Guile Scheme (with the exception of parts of the inherited daemon, which hasn't yet been completely implemented in Guile); this extends to development tools like importers, updaters, to user tools like "guix environment", and even bleeds into other projects that are used by GuixSD (the GNU system distribution built around Guix), such as the shepherd init system. There is a lot of code reuse across the stack, which makes hacking on Guix really fun and smooth.

\- Packages are first class citizens in Guix. In Nix the idea of functional package management is very obvious in the way that packages are defined, namely as functions. These functions take their concrete inputs from an enormous mapping. In Guix you define first-class package values as Scheme variables. These package values reference other package values, which leads to a lazily constructed graph of packages. This emergent graph can be used as a library to trivially build other tools like "guix graph" (for visualising the graph in various ways) or "guix web" (for a web interface to installing and searching packages), "guix refresh" (for updating package definitions), a lovely feature-rich Emacs interface etc.

\- Embedded DSL. Since Guix is written in Scheme---a language for writing languages---it was an obvious choice to embed the package DSL in the host language Scheme instead of implementing a separate language that needs a custom interpreter. This is great for hacking on Guix, because you can use all the tools you'd use for Scheme hacking. There's a REPL, great Emacs support, a debugger, etc. With its support for hygienic macros, Scheme is also a perfect vehicle to implement features like monads (we use a monadic interface for talking to the daemon) and to implement other convenient abstractions.

\- Graph rewriting. Having everything defined as regular Scheme values means that you can almost trivially go through the package graph and rewrite things, e.g. to replace one variant of a package with a different one. Your software environment is just a Scheme value and can be inspected or precisely modified with a simple Scheme API.

\- Code staging. Thanks to different ways of quoting code (plain S-expressions and package-aware G-expressions), we use Scheme at all stages: on the "host side" as well as on the "build side". Instead of gluing together shell snippets to be run by the daemon we work with the AST of Scheme code at all stages. If you're interested in code staging I recommend reading this paper: [https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01580582/en](https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01580582/en)

\- Bootstrapping. Some of us are very active in the "bootstrappable builds" community (see [http://bootstrappable.org](http://bootstrappable.org)) and are working towards full bootstrap paths for self-hosting compilers and build systems. One result is a working bootstrap path of the JDK from C (using jikes, sablevm, GNU classpath, jamvm, icedtea, etc). In Guix we take bootstrapping problems serious and prefer to take the longer way to build things fully from source instead of just adding more binary blobs. This means that we cannot always package as many things as quickly as others (e.g. Java libraries are hard to build recursively from source). I'm currently working on bootstrapping GHC without GHC and without the generated C code, but via interpreting a variant of GHC with Hugs. Others are working on bootstrapping GCC via Scheme.

\- GuixSD, the GNU system distribution built around Guix. GuixSD has many features that are very different from NixOS. The declarative configuration in Scheme includes system facilities, which also form a graph that can be inspected and extended; this allows for the definition of complex system facilities that abstract over co-dependent services and service configurations. GuixSD provides more Scheme APIs that apply to the whole system, turning your operating system into a Scheme library.

\- I like the UI of Guix a lot more than that of Nix. With Nix 2.0 many perceived problems with the UI have been addressed, of course, but hey, I still prefer the Guix way. I also really like the Emacs interface, which is absolutely gorgeous. (What can I say, I live in Emacs and prefer rich 2D buffers over 1D command line strings.)

\- It's GNU. I'm a GNU hacker and to me Guix is a representative of a modern and innovative GNU. It's great to see more GNU projects acting as one within the context of Guix and GuixSD to provide an experience that is greater than the sum of its parts. Work on Guix affected other GNU packages such as the Hurd, Guile, cool Guile libraries, and led to a bunch of new GNU packages such as a workflow language for scientific computing.

On the other hand, although Guix has a lot of regular contributors and is very active, Nix currently has more contributors than Guix. Guix is a younger project. The tendency to take bootstrapping problems very seriously means that sometimes difficult packages require more work. Oddly, Guix seems to attract more Lispers than Haskellers (I'm a recovering Haskeller who fell in love with Scheme after reading SICP); it seems to be the other way around with Nix.

Having said all that: Nix and Guix are both implementations of functional package management. Both projects solve similar problems and both are active in the reproducible builds efforts. Solutions that were found by Nix devs sometimes make their way into Guix and vice versa. The projects are not competing with one another (there are orders of magnitudes more people out there who use neither Guix nor Nix than there are users of functional package managers, so there's no point in trying to get people who use Nix to switch to Guix). At our recent Guix fringe event before FOSDEM Eelco Dolstra (who invented functional package management and Nix) gave a talk on the future of Nix surrounded by Guix hackers --- there is no rivalry between these two projects.

Let me end with a comment that's actually on topic for the original post: Congratulations on the Nix 2.0 release! Long live functional package management!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Very exciting release notes. Nix is great and this makes it even better.

</comment><comment><USER25> How do I upgrade my existing Nix installation? After updating the nixpkgs- unstable channel, nixpkgs.nix is still 1.11.16 (and nixpkgs.nixUnstable is a 2.0 pre-release).

<comment><USER26> Look up channels status here:

[http://howoldis.herokuapp.com](http://howoldis.herokuapp.com)

It will prob take like 5 hours to be updated. Run nix-channel --update then reinstall nix.

<comment><USER25> Would it be safe to run `curl [https://nixos.org/nix/install](https://nixos.org/nix/install) | sh` (safe as in it won't screw with my existing installed packages), and if so, will that get me Nix 2.0? Or do I still have to wait for nixpkgs-unstable to rebuild?

<comment><USER17> If you already have Nix installed, what you want to do is change the channel, and do an upgrade.

<comment><USER25> Change the channel to what? It's already on nixpkgs-unstable.

<comment><USER27> nix.package = pkgs.nixUnstable;

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This looks really nice.

For basic users who have a DigitalOcean droplet with Ubuntu, to run a web server - how does this compare?

<comment><USER29> To do a car analogy (this is Slashdot, right?):

With Ubuntu, every time you want to fix something with your car, you roll it into the garage, pop open the hood and get to work. It's intensive labour, results will vary, and undoing a change can be really difficult.

With NixOS, it's like 3D printing a new car every time. You'll design a model, press a button, and the car gets built from scratch. If you don't like it, tweak the design a bit, and print a new car. If the new car breaks, just go back to the previous known-good one, which is already in your garage. You can even take the design documents to your friend and generate an exactly identical model.

<comment><USER30> > With Ubuntu, every time you want to fix something with your car, you roll it > into the garage, pop open the hood and get to work. It's intensive labour, > results will vary, and undoing a change can be really difficult.

You can do it that way, but I wouldn't recommend it. If your Ubuntu system becomes that way, it has become unmaintainable.

All modern server deployment methods describe the deployment in code so you do "print a new car" every time you change something. This includes Ubuntu.

On the desktop, you largely don't need to pop open the hood at all. If you find yourself doing that, you have yourself an experimental system and not production system.

<comment><USER31> > On the desktop, you largely don't need to pop open the hood at all.

So you're not installing updates on desktop machines at all? That sounds incredibly dangerous.

<comment><USER30> Huh? No. Updates ship as part of Ubuntu. From your perspective, updates happen. You don't need to pop open the hood at all to get them.

<comment><USER23> Unfortunately sometimes you do need to pop open the hood to see whats going on. Regarding ubuntu or rather its derivative mint for example I had to fiddle with xorg.conf to allow me to manually set the fans on a card because the desktop was overheating even with reasonable cooling in a small apartment with no ac in the middle of summer.

In case you didn't know nvidia driver doesn't let you manually set the fan without enabling this in xorg.conf or drop a file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d Not knowing about xorg.conf.d at the time I merely set xorg.conf and was very confused to find that it continued to overheat and further that my file was not modfified but gone. This happened periorically seemingly at random.

Turns out their driver manager mints gui for installing proprietary drivers had installed the optimus package to enable a laptop with dual gpus to work properly on a desktop and that the post install script for this package was helpfully removing /etc/xorg.conf every time it was run when said useless package was updated.

Moving the snippit to xorg.conf.d was helpful as was finding and removing the useless package but we are still looking at an issue on a relatively recent machine that couldn't be fixed without grep and a xorg config file in a recent version of a ubuntu derivative.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: NoWorries – Service to Send Your Last Message - <AUTHOR> https://noworries.app <comment><USER2> I've been playing with something like this as a self hosted service.

My main points of worry in this kind of services are data security and reliability.

How are these addressed here? As it's a free service there is no contractual obligation to fulfill. There is no mention what happens with the data afterwards. There is more to consider but you get the drift.

Like the idea but before I would use it would need a lot more information.

<comment><AUTHOR> Understood. Good point!

At the moment all user data is auto-deleted after 30 days of the last message sent. I should probably add this to the privacy policy.

Does this face your concerns or you would like to see some other solution?

<comment><USER2> It was one specific example.

\- Who has access to the data

\- Can a contact access the data

\- This is very much a one/two man shop, what happens when you are incapacitated?

\- Where is the profit? Or why is it free

Just to give some insight, I have basically three data stores. One is the official legacy, then a system to sent out messages. Which contain instructions (including decryption fast needed financial info) and then a datastore which is downloadable of S3.

This solution would fall in the messages part and fits perfectly. The information in those messages is not something that I would want to be disclosed or accidently sent. The contacts are all not tech savvy so I can't use PGP/GPG or something, they simply wouldn't understand, I can make them remember a password but that's it. One of the best solutions is most likely a system like tresorit send, but then for a message.

I think your solution works for a subset of use cases, but the more digital data you want to give access to the less you trust these solutions.</comment></comment></comment>


Making Chess in Ethereum - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@graycoding/lessons-learned-from-making-a-chess-game-for-ethereum-6917c01178b6 <comment><USER2> This is very cool, and there are indeed interesting trade-offs in deciding what happens on the chain and what happens off of it. Is there a live demo set up somewhere?</comment>


'Nobody's got to use the Internet': A GOP lawmaker's response about Web privacy - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/04/15/nobodys-got-to-use-the-internet-a-gop-lawmakers-response-to-concerns-about-web-privacy/ <comment><USER2> I'm sure this'll be taken down from HN in a matter of minutes, but I'd just like to add that it really bothers me how so many politicians and lawmakers have such narrow mindsets. It doesn't take a genius to see how the internet has a profound impact on the education and day-to-day life of Americans.

<comment><USER3> We shouldn't engage with their rhetoric at face level. What the congressman is really saying is "I'm a member of a party/system so obviously corrupt and entrenched that this question isn't worthy of a dignified response."

The sooner Americans start engaging with the actions of their politicians, rather than their stated rhetoric, the better off we'd all be.

<comment><USER4> What's the darkest path America could take?

Gazing across the Atlantic from Europe, the USA is walking a dark path. I have to remind myself that as well as Trump, they created Seinfeld, for every bomb dropped the civil rights movement has saved another person... it's a crazy country. I hope it swings left next time.

<comment><USER3> I'd say something like Russia, although probably more overtly brutal and violent. We don't have anyone nearly as capable as Surkov to "manage" our democracy, and would probably devolve into another civil war if the same level of authoritarianism took hold.

But fundamentally, you're right, America is a crazy country. That the citizens of the world's military super power are this irrational is a frightening turn in history.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Dude has been in office almost as long as i have been alive (1978) (I was born in 75) .. holy hell what does he get for 50 years in congress?

That's really not dedication nor is it really someone who is goal oriented if you think about it; what is his growth potential except in congress around little teams jockying for their own position.

Reminds me of high school tbh

<comment><USER6> A 12 year term limit seems reasonable for congress. Ditto the Supreme Court.

<comment><USER7> I'm all for lawmakers term limits.

I'd be much more careful about Supreme Court. I personally prefer to insulate it from Congress meddling and SC term limits would allow Congress and president to exert too much influence (with 9 judges you get a selection and approval about once a year with a chance to significantly affect key decisions).

<comment><USER8> Except you don't anymore... Remember Merrick Garland? Yeah. It has become clear that one side will completely stonewall the other side and celebrate by putting in place an extremely political pick (Goursch)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> You hear that? This Representative just promised to change the FBAR (FinCEN Report 114) so that you can file it by mailing the form in! Oh and not to mention free copies of all of the various tax forms and instructions for both federal and state governments! /s

Yes, I get that this is different from using the internet as a consumer, but there are so many things today that NEED the internet in America that his statement, "Nobody's got to use the Internet." either shows zero thought into the nuances of this topic OR that he is willfully ignorant. Seriously, how much of his job _requires_ the internet? I'm willing to bet most of it. The most basic of which is e-mail. Given a Representative who won't use email and one who will, which do you think would be more effective at their job?

</comment><comment><USER10> Congressmen don't need to use the internet for their election bids (fund raising, attack/support ads, GOTV) either. I would encourage Sensenbrenner to try that approach.

Although, it would seem every single successful representative does use the internet, the "Let them eat cake" attitude, seems to come from those with the most to lose.

"choice" [https://arstechnica.com/information- technology/2017/04/one-b...](https://arstechnica.com/information- technology/2017/04/one-broadband-choice-counts-as-competition-in-new-fcc- proposal/)

</comment><comment><USER11> Earning his $30,000

'Here's how much Comcast paid members of Congress to sell your browser history' \- [http://resistancereport.com/class-war/comcast-congress- brows...](http://resistancereport.com/class-war/comcast-congress-browser- history/)

</comment><comment><USER12> Same guy probably thinks no one "needs" health insurance either (while both having premium internet access and health insurance).

<comment><USER13> He gets to make laws, that's not something you _need_ either. Aside from mocking the, oh-you-could-just-do-without tone, I think we should talk about what we want the future of the internet to be like, and how it could fit into our lives. If we want it to be a tool for rural poor to lift themselves up by their bootstraps because there's no other way they'd have access to world- class educational material, we need it to be a place where people aren't being extorted, frightened, or humiliated. And honestly, if browsing history is up for grabs, that's what we need to be worried about. No normal human understands the difference between selling that data and humiliating someone for money, because there _is_ no difference.

<comment><USER12> It's not really about selling browsing history, it's the inferences that can be made by piecing it together.

It's about spying and the ways that can empower the security state.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is there a market for privacy respecting ISP? For example, Start the ISP in places where consumers have no choice.

<comment><USER15> Search HN for the recent article on starting an ISP. It's expensive and not worth your time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I like how in politics we skip his/her name and use the party for the headline.

<comment><USER10> Well, if the vote hadn't been party line, it might have made a difference.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- switch/wp/2017/03/28...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- switch/wp/2017/03/28/the-house-just-voted-to-wipe-out-the-fccs-landmark- internet-privacy-protections/)

<comment><USER17> True, though the vote and the justification of the vote are different things.

The most common opinion of those on that side is "Internet is not fundamentally different from other communications (e.g. cable)"

<comment><USER18> The comparison to TV/cable is a good one. I don't think people who feel this way would say the same about telephones or the postal service.

<comment><USER17> AFAIK there are no laws preventing telephone and postal providers from collecting and selling metadata.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> His internet browsing history is needed.

<comment><USER20> Somebody who spent 50 years in Congress doesn't have a browser history: he likely employs someone to read him the lunch menu, let alone turn on a pc.

<comment><USER19> He probably has a phone though ;-)

[http://www.dailyedge.ie/news-reporter-pornhub- bookmark-13109...](http://www.dailyedge.ie/news-reporter-pornhub- bookmark-1310905-Feb2014/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It seems that the internet is not personally important to this politician, and he mistakenly assumes that is the case for all other people.

<comment><USER22> Once people start to purchase the web history of members of congress, this will get corrected fairly quickly.

Has the makings of another high-profile SOPA style reversal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Not quite a fair headline. Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin should be identified by name even if that is the exact headline at WaPo's site.

</comment><comment><USER24> Often you need to use the internet to do your homework, apply for school and jobs, do your work, etc.

</comment><comment><USER25> Why don't we just go back to using horse-drawn carriages while we're at it?

<comment><USER26> He is not serious, he just doesn't like everyone having access to this much information...

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Well, this takes "not knowing the price of a gallon of milk" to a whole new level.

</comment><comment><USER28> I don't expect this reply to be popular, but I thought it would be helpful to share an alternative perspective in the name of open dialogue. I am not sure what the senator intended precisely, but I think a reasonable interpretation would be the following (which I claim only as my argument, not he senator's):

It is a choice to use the internet or not, just like it is a choice to purchase and eat food, purchase and live in a house, or to pursue a career and earn money. Obviously, if you want to live a long and happy life, these are good choices to make. However, each choice has a cost depending on the terms of the trade between you and the provider.

You have to pay for your food and your home and come to an agreement to the terms and conditions with the seller. If you don't like the terms and conditions available, you have to choose whether you want the services bad enough to use them under the terms offered or to search for better terms offered. If in a particular real estate market, the norms for purchase terms are not what you prefer, you are free to choose to live elsewhere where more favorable terms exist (e.g. leave the Bay Area to get more affordable housing). The choice is yours. The same is true for the internet. If you want internet (which I wholeheartedly agree we all should because it offers so many life promoting and time saving benefits), then the choice is yours what ISP to use and where to live to have a pro-privacy ISP if that is a priority.

Now some will say this is different because choices are limited by the ISP monopolies. I have two thoughts on this: 1\. How did these become monopolies? Primarily because of government interference. Here is a quick link with more information ([https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2013/07/we- need-t...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2013/07/we-need-to-stop- focusing-on-just-cable-companies-and-blame-local-government-for-dismal- broadband-competition/amp/)), but you can find much more detailed articles as well if you are curious. 2\. If you don't find that compelling and believe ISPs would be "natural monopolies" without government interference, then ask yourself this... what is the meaning of telling that ISP what it can and cannot do with the data it consensually agrees to collect from customers? What is the meaning of a "right" to receiving internet without one's usage data being sold? At whose expense? The only way to enforce a right to a service someone else provides is government to force someone (the ISP) to provide their services to someone else (the consumer). If it is wrong for the ISP to consensually sell your usage data, why is it right for government to force the ISP to provide you a service with different terms than you consensually agree to? Is it right for the government to tell you what you can and cannot purchase? Is it right for you the government to tell you what you can and cannot eat? Is it right for the government to tell you what home you can and cannot purchase? I think the answer is no of course, because I think that all of these are forms of violating individuals rights: the right to voluntarily trade (as a consumer and a seller).

<comment><USER21> When someone says "I had no choice" what they often mean is that there was some other course of action that was possible, but that it would have brought such terrible consequences that they would have been crazy to choose it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> You DONT have to use the internet. You can ask your personal assistant to use it for you!

#sarcasm

<comment><USER26> what if your assistant uses your Internet connection?</comment></comment>