Ask HN: Working through burnout? - <AUTHOR> I know, I know, the solution to burnout is to slow down and take some time off.
What do you do when you're exhausted, your brain is fuzzy, and you just plain have to meet a hard deadline in a few days?  You have obligations to your team and your company and yourself that just can't put off.
It's all well and good to say you'll take a week off once the deadline is met, but how do you keep your brain operative and your mind focused enough to read and write code for those intervening 3 days when you can barely read a sentence of plain English text without having to go back over it 3 times to extract any meaning? <comment><USER2> Honestly? Refuse. In my experience, there are very few situations where crunch time affects the bottom line. There are some, to be sure, but chances are slim that you have stumbled upon it. More likely, someone higher up got impatient and is driving this. I have worked many a Saturday nights until 3-4 am to try to launch a site on Monday, just to learn that there was going to be a month long delay because someone else didn't do something. I had a deadline of "we are launching this thing on Friday"... for 12 weeks straight (finally launched it once it was truly ready a year later).

For working weekends, I've adopted a policy of roughly one weekend a year. That's how often I believe true emergencies happen (at least for most situations; Google SRE need not apply).

Look, if it's an isolated incident, take some breaks, find something to distract and relax you, get sleep. If it's a second or third attempt to get the team to crunch hard, quit.

<comment><USER3> This makes a lot of sense to me, and has happened a few times. Very rarely is the crunch worth it, and almost always "burning the midnight oil" results in bad code/bad work. To the point where it might have been better to have been fresh and made a decision that resulted in 5 minutes work, or no work, versus slogging away at a waste of time because you're doggedly doing something that makes no sense.

On top of that, there seems to be a theme of employers trying to expect that lately, or "well, its IT, you're expected to work out of hours for free". Just refuse that and find a better employer, is my advice, if that happens too often.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I was burnt out once. It got bad, I got depressed, for lack of better way to putting it, i felt "disconnected" from myself. My relationship was suffering, and nothing made it better. It only got worse. I'd get in this loop, where i'd work long hours. Get nothing done, so work longer hours. It kept repeating, getting worse and worse.

I tried taking a vacation, that did little to help. What worked for me was changing jobs. Still, I didn't get better immediately, it took me a good year or so to feel "productive" again.

It was one of the worst periods of time in my life, and i'd recommend you get out as fast as possible.

<comment><USER5> I was in a similar situation -- for me, I didn't feel like my contributions were welcomed, felt like there was too much of a load of work to do, but it also felt like useless work. Then the company downsized, and I was laid off for 4 months in the summer. During the recession, and only got a hand full of interviews during that time (I think 3 in-person, and 2 phone interviews). But that 4 months off made me a new person, so when I did get back to work (new job, with a strong need for my skill set) I felt (and performed) like I was 20 years younger.

So, "yes" to the job change, and a big "yes" to a real vacation (not just a week, but sometimes you need a month or more off). The best is if you can have some savings, and find a job that has a start date pushed out a bit (of course this is a bit risky depending on the job market and your ability to easily land a job).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> If you are burned out, it may very well be that you will miss that 'hard deadline'. However, very few deadlines in life are really 'hard' (as in you will lose your life if you don't meet the deadline.) Talk to the folks who have set the deadline to see if it can be rescheduled. If they cannot or will not reschedule your deadlines, then resign yourself to the consequences of the missed deadline and start thinking of your life beyond the deadline. If it is some sort of application deadline, remember these sorts of deadlines are artificial. You can always apply the next round. Or a different opportunity will arise. All the best. Don't make burnout worse by stressing about deadlines. If missing the deadline isn't going to result in your death or the death of a loved one, it's not a final deadline.

<comment><USER7> ^^ this. When you try and control things, you only let them control you. Ignore the deadline and focus on writing good code.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Seriously, the only practical thing that works is exercise and sleep. If you have to push through, exercise 1hr per day and sleep at least 6 hours during your ordeal. The exercise will clear your fog brain like nothing else can. Also, moderate your caffeine intake during this period - your adrenals are already shot from stress and exhaustion, no need to make it worse.

<comment><USER9> meh, exercise and sleep are great, and they certainly help, but sometimes the job itself is the core problem... Doesn't matter how fit and well rested you are if you're sick of doing the same thing day after day after day after day...

<comment><USER8> Agreed, but OP asks about getting the job done despite fatigue and burnout, short-term. For more general information on handling burnout long-term, I believe there are a wealth of HN posts already.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Discipline. In more way than one.

Firstly, the discipline to avoid getting exhausted in the first place. I don't knee-jerk "yes" when asked to work overtime, I make a deliberate decision despite how much pride I might have in the product or how much pressure I am put under by management. When I work overtime for a single night it's seen as a big deal and a big favor: as it should be.

Secondly, the discipline to push through if the first case of discipline somehow fell short. Then I demand leave, bonus leave, _immediate_ leave: no questions asked. If I've had the discipline to push through, I can easily demand that my employer has the discipline to ensure that I am in top working order despite their mistake.

</comment><comment><USER11> You're asking how to drive a car when it's run out of gas. You don't. Maybe you can push it slowly, but really you should fill up, even just a little. It's a lot easier to drive a car to the next fill station than it is to kill yourself pushing it there. Take some time, even a just a little, and put some gas in your tank.

</comment><comment><USER12> I'll +1 Exercise. Meditate. Sleep. When I read your comment this is what I read though: "I committed to this goal and I gave it everything I got but still came up short. How can I make it so I didn't come up short?"

I've been there not too long ago with the goal being making a multi-million euro part of an even bigger project with 7 figure fines for delays get off the critical path in the midst of a corporate reorganization. In the end me coming up a tad short still was a resounding success for the company. The multi-year personal recovery period afterwards wasn't though.

The main thing that I've learnt is that every company is in its most optimal state when every individual in it consistently _cycles_ between being pushed to grow _AND_ completely relaxing. It's the same formula sporters use to get better: if you're not pushed frequently you stall and underperform; if you can't relax your dynamic range decreases and you'll slowly become less effective.

For any company to get there its employees need to internalize one very specific guideline: when you're under stress and don't see a way to fully relax and shake it off sufficiently soon it's time to reorganize the process so that your stress levels become manageable again; hard deadline or no hard deadline.

</comment><comment><USER13> Avoid crunch, it's not good for you, blah blah, see all the other comments. But sometimes you have to.

Try the "caf-nap". Drink a strong cup of coffee and immediately go to sleep (set an alarm for 45 mins or so). It can feel like a good 3-4 hour nap if it works.

In general, I'd say just make absolutely sure that that hard deadline is hard, and you can push yourself and recover afterward. Or if it's not really such a hard deadline, push it out long enough that you can recover.

If you are feeling foggy, work on the "grunt work" parts of the project (like lining up UI, or converting data or something that doesn't take much thinking), and when you are feeling more alert, work on the hard parts and firewall them off from sleepy you.

Don't take any drugs stronger than caffeine, even if your coworkers are.

Say to yourself, if I had to ship this literally four hours from now, what would I do? How could I fake it so that it appeared done? Do that. Then do it again. Then do it again until it's sort of really done.

Write down a priority list, not of importance but of implementation time. Cut the biggest item, no matter how important.

Look for parts that can be faked and retrofit later, with hardcoded data, textfiles, pure magic bullshit, whatever. Fake them.

Forget about quality. Once you're at this point, you've already missed your chance at that. Just get something done.

Make it a challenge, make it a war story. Don't let it happen again.

<comment><USER8> > Say to yourself, if I had to ship this literally four hours from now, what > would I do? How could I fake it so that it appeared done? Do that. Then do > it again. Then do it again until it's sort of really done.

That is _really_ good advice

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I totally know the feeling and have had to really dig deeply in the past year. Here are some things that worked.

1) Be ruthless about what you need to accomplish. This means choosing what to "do poorly" at. Sure everything is "important" but it's time to secretly throw a few things overboard.

2) Do whatever you can to optimize your wellbeing. Go to bed early and sleep enough. (1/3 dose of melatonin if you have trouble falling asleep.) Plan simple healthy meals that don't require much thinking or prep. A media fast is really good. Try to throw in a tiny bit of exercise (20 minutes) and 10 minutes of meditation here and there. (ex: when you arrive at the office)

3) Do the work in cycles so you get time to think between bursts. As we get older, the work wears us down so I treat screen time as "toxic exposure" and set a daily maximum. That doesn't mean you have to stop working...Just step away from the desk and visualize what you're going to do. Then get in there and work quickly and efficiently and get out and plan the next burst.

Bonus: In a real pinch, you need to work every day of the week. Though extra cycles and wellbeing make this pretty easy. If you're working too hard, the weekends are necessary to recover.

<comment><USER15> Totally agree with #1, drop things that are not really necessary. This is hard as if you care and are passionate about what you do, because you won't think you can drop anything. Trust me you can.

Exercise and eating are critical, something I personally fail at all too often when I get stressed. Supplements like others have said aren't going to fix the problem, but can help you control some of the symptoms (Vitamin B6, B12 & D are really good here). Just stay away from powerful drugs if at all possible, masking the symptom with a potent drug isn't worth the pain later. However, that said, sometimes in life it is necessary, so be your own judge.

Don't believe in the fallacy that you will take a week off when this deadline is met. Cause the reality is you will likely feel, I can't leave now because what if X happens, or Y etc. Instead, its likely time to renegotiate the deadline, likely was time 2+ weeks ago, but either way just do it.

Failure can be defined a lot of ways, missing a deadline is generally not one of them when the cost of missing it exceeds the value it offers. I have seen many deadlines set by a startup or small business because they feel they have to get to market by day X or they miss the boat, fail, go out of business, you name it. Guess what, Day X comes and nothing changes except the team is burnt and bitter at minimum for awhile. As usually even moderate success is Day X + Y. If the date has been long announced then yes meeting the date may be critical, but how you meet the date is still negotiable.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just responding to thank everyone for their suggestions (and support!) -- a lot of really good ideas... Almost all of the advice is applicable to one situation or another (except possibly "take drugs" \-- REALLY??)

In this particular case, I think the problem was the choice to prioritize other people's needs over my own -- even my own work tasks. The combination of stress and constant interruption was causing fatigue beyond what would normally be warranted by the actual amount of time I've been spending working (a bit more than is sustainable, but only for a few days so far) and sleeping (as much as usual). After a day of being deliberately selfish, I'm in a slightly better place.

To answer some of the questions and concerns brought up:

We have a deadline based on a 3rd-party real-world event. The deadline is non- negotiable. To a certain degree, feature set/which bugs we fix are.

I'm the project manager as well as a developer, so I'm not free from blame for the tight deadline. That said, we were on track to complete the project weeks ahead of schedule until a couple of critical features were delayed by unavailability of a crucial resource (despite my protests) until way later in the schedule than should have been acceptable.

In part, I'm working so hard in order to shield the team as much as possible from the consequences of my mistakes and the above-mentioned resource allocation error, which are not their fault. I'm demanding this of myself far more than my employer is demanding it of me, because I don't want to let these people down. Including a very supportive and not-unreasonably-demanding manager. Not a firing or quitting situation!

</comment><comment><USER16> Do you have a hobby? If the answer is no, then you need to do some soul searching and find something external to technology that you would enjoy. My wife is a psychiatrist (well not yet, she is finishing her doctorate) and doing a study on burn out, she believes it is a undiagnosed form of temporal depression. Many times it's onset comes when a developer feels there is nothing more to learn, what she has named masters syndrome. Many times the very thing to break it, is to become a novice again. But the trick is a novice at something totally unrelated, my first one was ballistics. I bought a reloading bench and learned everything about the accuracy, power transfer of bullets. Fishing and Hunting have always been big for me as well, so I took time to do both. My wife believes that burn out is a product of a specific personality profile that likes to learn, but may feel that they have mastered their field. I stress that she is still collecting data and at this point it is conjecture, until the data validates it. But I can say developing new interests broke it for me and it certainly worth a try.

<comment><USER17> I don't think a hobby is going to help meet a deadline a few days away.

<comment><USER16> No you are correct, but if you are suffering from burn out you have a larger problem than a looming deadline. Corrective steps take time. It takes years to get to burn out, there is no magic bullet to undue that overnight.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Solve the "fuzzy brain" complex: Take time to evaluate your situation. Understanding your current position relative to your goal is incredibly important to maintaining having a clear mind during stressful circumstances. If your to-do list isn't logged somewhere, get it into the medium of your choice (physical or electronic). The cognitive load of those tasks is undoubtedly weighing on you. Keep paper nearby when you're going to sleep so any sudden thoughts can be offloaded immediately without the glowing allure of a display panel.

Prioritize: Are there some to-dos which have blockers? You might need an image from a 3rd party, task interdependencies, some information from someone working on the project... get those things happening in parallel while you work (start them as early as possible).

Keep the feedback loop short: Is it possible some part of the deliverable is going to be rejected or changes may be required? Can you mock it up and save some development time? Try to have the highest possible confidence in what you're building and keep the feedback loop small. Not only does provide you a requirements guarantee, it can help prevent unrealistic expectations about progress since everyone is kept updated as a side effect of the feedback loop. Don't fall into the trap of thinking "it's only 3 days anyways, they don't need to be involved, I just need to get this done."

Stay balanced: Don't increase or decrease caffeine intake. Decreasing it drag you down, increase will make you have manic productivity swings with deep valleys. Don't skip sleep, meals or exercise. Even if you don't normally exercise you should start during this period to prevent your mind from racing and to help rest at night. Do it daily as vigorously as you can, figure out if AM or PM works best for you. If you have a friend or significant other you can involve, it can help get more out of your limited free time between now and the deadline.

<comment><USER18> Good points about prioritising. It might be better to have one feature missing than going in to bat with several features only partially working or buggy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> There are quite a few long-term answers already to avoiding burnout, but the trick to getting past the next 3 days is to walk away for a brief break right now. Do something you really enjoy, ideally that lets your body get some exercise while you can completely ignore the work for a few hours. Let yourself forget for a few hours.

If it is too short of a break, it won't work. If it is too long of a break, you'll be too far disconnected and still feel burnt out when you try to start again. For me, 2-3 hours is about right.

And everyone else is correct. Once this is over, and you have recovered, find new routines to avoid this in future. Also, do some real analysis of how you got here in the first place - burnout due to hard deadlines is almost always a flaw in your project management process (or lack thereof). Treat this burnout like a performance problem in software - dig deep, find the root cause, and fix it.

</comment><comment><USER20> Many people are telling you that discipline is the solution. They're not necessarily wrong, but the most disciplined person in the world cannot squeeze blood from a stone. Sometimes you're mentally fatigued, discouraged, and the task at hand seems overwhelming.

For me, __progress __is the solution to burnout. Stop whatever hard problem you 're working on for a bit and work on something simple -- layout tweaks, small bug fixes, code cleanup, automated tests. This usually gives me the extra boost of dopamine I need to handle the larger task at hand.

Your mileage may vary of course but it's something that has worked wonders for me.

</comment><comment><USER21> Take at least one hour consecutive walk every day without any gadgets. It'll give your brain time to recover and your body exercise to releave stress.

<comment><USER22> +1 for walking. I am a pathological walker. If I am having issues (stress, concern, overwhelmed) I walk for a few hours. I can't say it always works but it gives me something constructive to do and allows me to focus less on my immediate problems that I often can't change.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> There are some drugs to help people with _real_ medical conditions like narcolepsy that can help and have been known to help.

Natural stuff, take more breaks, and just have in the back of your mind that better days (specially nights are ahead).

Avoid burnouts, I was on some pills for a year to launch a product and then, first I got fired cause I couldn't do shit, then I slept for a month and couldn't get a job to save my life. That was 6 years ago, and is now that I feel better. Don't be STUPID is not worth it.

</comment><comment><USER18> If you're as fogged out as you seem to be, then the hours you're spending at work are pretty much completely unproductive. I'd suggest you use them more wisely by going home and getting a really good nights sleep. Consider it an investment in being more productive tomorrow.

<comment><USER24> That is useless advice. More so, it is hurtful advice. "Get a long night sleep" is not always an option. And the person above is clearly asking "When a long night of sleep is not an option, what else can I do?" We all know there are professions (fire fighters, police, soldiers, nurses, doctors, computer programmers, etc) where it is sometimes necessary to work extreme hours. And the question being asked is clearly, how do you keep operating when you have to work extreme hours? If you have no answer, then don't post anything, and let others answer.

<comment><USER25> I see no reason for extreme hours for programmers, it's just wasted time. More companies should embrace 6 hour work days and 4 day work weeks, as people are then forced to work on only the important things and not do any busywork.

Go get a good long sleep. Rest. Get a hammock and sleep on parks. Enjoy life. Work is not life. Work is means to an end but not life.

<comment><USER24> Do you realize that the question being asked has nothing to do with what you are suggesting? The question is clearly about those situations where "Go get a good long sleep" is not an option. Are you going to argue that "Go get a good long sleep" is always an option, under all circumstances? if so, make that argument: detail the cases where the whole company was depending on you to reach some crucial deadline, and you felt able to go home and have a long night of sleep.

Please understand, I think your advice is good whenever it is possible. We should all try to get a good night of sleep, whenever we can. But sometimes it is not possible, and this thread is about those situations.

I assume you are intelligent enough to know that sometimes sleep is impossible. If I doubted your intelligence, then I might list the many situations where you advice does not apply. I will offer just one anecdote from my experience: in 2003 myself and my business partner were going to meet with investors on a Wednesday, to ask for $250,000. We were out of money, so we had to impress the investors, or we were doomed. I started getting ready for the demo on Monday, and I kept running into bugs, more and more bugs, endless bugs. I ended up working for 20 hours, then getting 2 hours of sleep, then working for 20 more hours, so that we could give a demo on that Wednesday that was bug free.

Sometimes sleep is not an option. That is what this thread is about.

<comment><USER26> Bullshit. How often do those "critical deadlines" end up not meaning anything other than some MBA chose a date at random? And if the business truly does hinge on meeting this one deadline, why is he he only one on it?

As for your sob story, why in the holy fuck did you put off the work until the week of the meeting?

<comment><USER27> > _other than some MBA chose a date at random?_

I'll bet you 90% of these companies working ridiculous hours are run by programmers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> 1) Stop reading HN.

2) Work your ass off for the next 3 days. You can do it. And for the next 3 days, have as many lunch and dinners with your team as you can -- meals with your team during a crunch time are a great morale booster. Also, don't pull all-nighters. Even if it's a crisis, you still need sleep.

3) On day 4, have the awkward conversation with your team lead, manager, etc... and quit.

4) Promise yourself you won't get into that kind of a situation ever again. And if you do find yourself in that kind of a situation again, promise yourself that you'll look for and deal with the warning signs sooner than three days before a deadline. (I know it's clichéd, but especially with burnout, prevention is much more effective than any cure.)

<comment><USER26> If you're gonna quit, why bother killing yourself for the next 3 days? Take your time and do the work well, on a reasonable pace.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> _You have obligations to your team and your company and yourself that just can 't put off._

Yes, and they have obligations to you. Notably, not to kill you. That's the level of seriousness you're looking at - people who push through chronic fatigue (or adrenal fatigue) and carry on working extended hours without proper rest run quite a significant risk of death. Accept the fact that you are now totally unproductive and (possibly) actually having a negative impact on the project.

Best solution: Find a freelancer to step in for a few weeks to give you a break. Less good solution: cut your hours in half and hope the rest of the team can pick up the difference.

</comment><comment><USER30> Get out! Now! Then clean your Appartment and realy Force Your Self to keep it clean.

Got burned twice. Took me 3 years to recover from the Last time. Just finished cleaning my Appartement from 3 years worth of trash. I am so relived!

If You try to work through it you just Drive your self deeper. Scaling back to halve time may work, but its realy the responsibility that kills you.

Sports, Arts, Travel Are helpfull and Friends! Tell Your Friends You Are burned, Tell them You will try to kick em out Your Life, and Tell them they should insist - they should not stop calling you even if you push em back.

Good luck! And next time: Take an early vacation before your Brain is fucked.

</comment><comment><USER31> Take breaks and try excercise. I can tell you what won't work. Any "Smart drugs" I say this becasue I have been on amphetamines for years. The secret they don't want you to know? They stop working.. And you need more and more. Try to stop them? Not without a few months of having zero energy or being able to think at all. Stay away from "quick fixes" this includes nootropics. There is no simple solution and no substitute for resting and not overworking.

<comment><USER32> I've been on Vyvanse for years and it hasn't stopped working. If I don't take it, I'll feel tired by around 8 PM. If I do, I can stay up for much longer (although it doesn't seem to really hamper my ability to fall sleep).

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Check out your hormone levels - I burned out HAAAARD trying to write actuarial exams while working 10 hours and applying for YC (didn't get in ;) - had to take 2 weeks off.

A persistent lack of sleep can cause your body to shut-off non-essential processes e.g. hormone regulation. My testosterone (I'm a guy) was abnormally low (<5th percentile) and it was largely due to lack of sleep, poor eating and 0 exercise. Also I took a testosterone cream supplement for a couple months and literally within weeks of this + gym + healthy food, I put on 10% my weight of muscle and magically had twice the energy I had before. I literally feel like life was a dream before changing my daily routines to keep my testosterone up (cold shower, heavy weights 4x per week, eat protein rich big meals with veg, etc. ) and keep myself sane (20min mindfulness meditation first thing in the morning). That's the other thing: your body functions best while the sun was up (we have had electricity for ~0.001% of man's complete lifetime so our bodies didn't evolve to function at night and we've only had lights for like 100 years. Before that you made a fire and had to chill in one spot!

TLDR: no sleep + poor diet = messed up hormones = low energy ... get your blood tested at your GP!

</comment><comment><USER34> Exercise. Meditate. Sleep.

<comment><USER35> I have to say these three do wonders and are critical for sustainable productivity.

<comment><USER3> Meditating/relaxing in bed before sleep I think is pretty important. Just taking 10-30 minutes to completely relax the muscles, stretch everything, forget everything. Pine trees, crickets, water lapping over white sands.

To do it well, I focus on the extremities of the toes and fingers, and give them a really good stretch, then let them relax. Then work inwards. Eventually you'll feel like you're floating, and get a good night's sleep. But I also mean stretch your eyebrows, your jaw etc. Stretch everything possible and let it relax. Its amazing where you can hold tension.

<comment><USER35> I don't have much experience with stretching before sleep, but sounds like it would work, and work well! I only use meditation to clear my mind so I can get some peace and away from the problem I've been trying to solve during the day, otherwise I would be awake all night!

I really do prefer weight training an hour or so before sleep, it just gets the blood flowing without increasing the heart rate too much.

<comment><USER3> I agree, I think a good exercise/weight session is equally as good, if not better. Or both. We're pretty sedentary beasts, and I think that can cause a lot of problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> For me, this is what I do and what has worked for me thus far.

Mental preparation. Always have conversations with yourself about your state of mind, be your own therapist, I tell myself that I'm blessed and working 24/7 is nothing. There are folks who have a much more physical and mentally demanding jobs.

There are people who are living in war zone and their job everyday is to survive, to avoid getting shot, blown to bits, find food within that chaos and still do whatever they have to do. There is no timeouts, no rest, the action could begin right while you are sleeping and you have to jump and get back at it. As a software developer, we have it easy. I imagine myself as a survivor in the midst of a war. I won't crack and I'm ready for whatever.

Cuss loud if you have to, laugh loud when you have to, have fun within the work, don't be 100% zoned in, while working, crack jokes, laugh, balance it out. You can do it. If you are mentally tough, you will not burnout. The physical toll on your body tho is a different matter, my biggest issue is that of eating right and weight gain. Best of luck.

<comment><USER37> "be your own therapist" That's impossible. It's like being your own dentist when you have problems in your teeth.

<comment><USER38> _> "be your own therapist" That's impossible. It's like being your own dentist when you have problems in your teeth._

Sometimes it's possible, and sometimes it's not.

To respond to your analogy, I would equate "checking in" with your mental state with brushing your teeth.

No, you can't perform a root canal on yourself, just like you can't bring yourself out of spiraling depression or a mental disorder -- you can, however, do some "preventive maintenance," and take care of your mental state. Seek a professional if/when you need one.

"Burnout" is a nebulous state. Some people are burned out when they've had a hard week, and others are in an intense state of panic/depression. I think these should be treated (or self-treated) accordingly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Stop. You're devaluing yourself. Every step you take past those barriers, you're both throwing yourself under the bus, and showing others that your time and effort is worth less. Something you'll come to believe more and more, feeding the cycle.

It's unsustainable, on loan from your future, and soon you'll stop being able to even meet the payments on the interest. Burning out is nothing compared to the sudden stop at the end, and that elusive 'almost there' Is. Not. True.

Whatever consequences you imagine lie before you if you don't stop, simply ponder what a death in your immediate family would do to that prioritisation. It /is/ negotiable, and if it isn't then you're not working for/with the right people anyway. If that's the case you're being treated as a disposable commodity. If you're replaceable, fungible, then you're a cost to be minimised, like a printer cartridge they try squeeze the last out of.

Self isn't something you get back easily (or at all) once traded away. Just don't.

</comment><comment><USER40> Everyone's giving different answers, which is not surprising. We all have different strategies for coping with unendurable burdens.

My strategy is sheer bloodymindedness, but I find I can only dredge that up so often. When I push through burnout when I know I shouldn't, I end up knackered for months.

It's an effort I can really only dredge up once a year or so. Make sure you talk to your boss about this.

<comment><USER41> You burn out once a year? Is this common? I'm contemplating a venture but I'm trying to evaluate the {mental, emotional, financial} toll it will take before I do.

<comment><USER40> I was going to say "no I don't", except I've just tabulated it and found it's about a once every 18 month experience.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> How's the rest of the team coping with it? If other people are also stressed, it is easier to go to management for an extension.

As for just working through it, programming work is not factory work. Productivity can be negative when you're tired, and x10 when you're on a roll. You may find yourself more productive just by not doing anything for a day and coming back.

</comment><comment><USER43> My superficial suggestion: Sleep, diet, and exercise.

Cut everything else out until the task is done, provided the task holds that level of importance to you. Sleep will help your brain, exercise will energize you (even if it's just a brisk walk), and food will sustain you. Sometimes it's easy to overlook the basics—the foundation of quality effort.

My real suggestion? Take a step back and consider whether the environment around you will keep you healthy and happy long-term. Burnout charges interest, and if your environment doesn't afford you the opportunity to repay that interest, you'll spiral into psychological and physical bankruptcy.

So before finishing this project, take a physical step back, look at your environment objectively. Is it going to bankrupt you? If yes, seek to remedy the situation immediately and forcefully. If no, see my superficial suggestion and get to work.

</comment><comment><USER44> Sometimes failing/falling hard is good; there are lessons to be learnt that we often don't learn any other way.

So, chances are this round of stress may not go well, and if it does, it may not be the last.

Step away and analyze where it is that you fail ( in addition to the other factors ). That will be a valuable learning opportunity.

</comment><comment><USER45> Be sure you covered all your supplements. If you work indoors, you almost certainly don't get enough vitamin D. Also, multivitamins. Additionally, I take fish oil, ginkgo, and saffron and find my brain fog to be improved. But I think the Vitamin D is essential.

There is good information about supplements on examine.com

<comment><USER46> If only burnout could be fixed with food supplements...

<comment><USER45> Yeah I'm not saying it can be completely fixed with supplements, but when he mentions having to read the same sentence 3 times...it sounds like it could be more than just burn out. In my experience, when I've been at that level of disorientation, I've found supplements actually do help.

I agree though, no supplement is going to completely save the day here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Drugs, but is this really the life you want for yourself?

</comment><comment><USER48> Just relax! As one of my former bosses said: "All we do is just BI, we don't change the world and nobody is going to die if we f* it up." If it's really important to keep the deadline, you should be able to find help within your team or your company should pay 5.000$/day for a superhuman hacker to solve the problem.

Watch the Southpark episode "Ginger Cow". You don't have to sacrifice your health and wellbeing for a project. You can always find an other "very important" project and work yourself to death. But - high probably - you don't have a second life.

</comment><comment><USER49> Try go for a swim in the ocean, an afternoon walk in a forest, a bit of dancing (and music!) at night. Don't underestimate how much rejuvenation you can get from having various natural (mental, emotional and physical) experiences like these.

There's also an adrenal support supplement which after a few days will help recycle hormones taking the load off your system. Essential oils supplements should also help with mental clarity.

If your digestion is currently poor, then after a few days of eating less toxic food you should have much more energy and less mental fatigue.

</comment><comment><USER50> For some people the sense of fellowship is more important than self-being. If you are one of those, well, it's going to be tough for you. Anyhow I would recommend:

1\. Take little walks during work. 2\. You also need a sound board, a colleague whom you can trust to validate your work and thoughts, because the one thing you can't afford is to redo things. Just trust this random stranger from the internet on this one. 3\. Try to get a fix on the date when you can take a time off.Knowing that takes of the edge off a bit.

</comment><comment><USER51> > but how do you keep your brain operative and your mind focused enough to > read and write code for those intervening 3 days

Adderal, Ritalin or Captagon can be used to get you out of a bad situation. But you should be very careful not to use them for longer periods because you will regret it. Talk to your doctor and then go talk to your employer.

I know where I live at least you can take a permanent medical leave for burn- out, the first month of which is to be paid by your employer, so most corporations would rather find a solution.

<comment><USER52> Surely a doctor isn't going to prescribe medication just because you're working too much? They're going to tell you to work less and sleep more. They don't care about your deadlines, they only care about you health.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> It's like asking, how do I walk without legs?

Unlike what Nike's ad says, somethings are not possible, and most things are not worth it. Your family, sanity, health come first; more so than work, pride and money(beyond basics).

What you are experiencing is a sampling error, where you are surrounded by young people who have similar views as yourself. Get out, see more of the world, heck, work for a IT dept. You would be surprised by how much money they make for the work they do.

</comment><comment><USER54> Are you sure it's only burnout? You could be depressed. I feel like the symptoms are kind of interchangeable to me. Mostly I can't tell if I'm depressed because work sucks or if work sucks because I'm depressed. Maybe talking to a therapist would help? Therapy and medication seem to help me a bit but I still wouldn't say I'm 100%.

</comment><comment><USER55> Does your team have a project manager? If so, he or she is the person to go to when you think a project is in jeopardy.

How did it come to this? Were the original time estimates way off? Was there significant scope creep? Were there blockers that were beyond your control (ie. tech problems with dev environments, specs were delivered late, etc.)

More than likely, the release date can be pushed.

</comment><comment><USER56> It's better to stop now and start the road to recovery, because these next three days will not be productive anyway.

You team will understand, the company cannot fairly* dismiss you for being overworked and stressed. You owe it to yourself to take a break and recharge.

* depends on your country's laws I guess, but if they value you they will give you time to recover.

</comment><comment><USER57> A hard cardio workout, followed by a 20 min sauna, followed by a healthy meal... every morning. Tell yourself burnout is childish, and you're simply stepping up and doing what needs to be done. Then do it. Don't over think it. That's a big part of what burnout is, just refuse to play that mind game.

</comment><comment><USER58> My general view is in the short term, you make those obligations. In the long term, you change your situation.

That said, there is a lot of good advice here -- sleep well, exercise, disconnect when not on the clock, talk to those who set the deadline and explain the situation in an advantageous way.

</comment><comment><USER59> Not to get all hippie on you, but have you considered mindful meditation as an approach to quiet down your mind and improve focus?

You may find that the realisation that you are becoming more focused when you need it will help your relieve the stress that's causing your burnout.

</comment><comment><USER60> Countdowns! When I feel the burnout is kicking in (usually every 2 years), I just keep counting down how many days and then hours are left to the deadline. It's like visualizing your own well deserved relief that slowly takes shape, it's quite motivating.

</comment><comment><USER61> I wrote an article on this a while ago which may be of use:

[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/01/you- are-...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/01/you-are-an- athlete-how-to-surv.html)

</comment><comment><USER62> What will happen if you release in 8 days instead of 3? What will happen if you release in 3 days but with a major bug? What will happen if you release in 3 days, but you cut features that don't work?

<comment><USER63> Bingo. Is this a _real_ deadline, as in the work will be worthless if it's done the day after, or is it just a target date? If the latter, communicate (important!) in clear terms that it will be late and _push back_ if anyone complains about it. Then get some goddamn sleep, go for a bike ride, play some Xbox, whatever. It Is Not Your Fault It's Late.

This is very likely a project management problem and should be treated as such. If anyone tries to blame you, blame the project management process, _unapologetically_ and _unhesitatingly_. Do not sacrifice your health/sanity to make up for shitty project management or ridiculous expectations. If the rest of the company refuses to see it your way and work toward fixing their probably-broken processes _immediately_ , start sending our résumés.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Call in sick and get some rest. Your first obligation is to yourself.

</comment><comment><USER65> Meth.

</comment><comment><USER66> Have you tried cocaine?

</comment><comment><USER67> exercise</comment>


Who's in the Lizard Squad? - <AUTHOR> http://krebsonsecurity.com/2014/12/whos-in-the-lizard-squad/

<comment><USER2> looks like it's getting DDoSed to me :/</comment>


The Wufoo Form Gallery - <AUTHOR> http://wufoo.com/gallery/

<comment><USER2> The cartoonish font and color scheme remind me of Team Fortress 2 (the typeface looks very similar to what TF2 uses). I like.

I also like how apparently to make a color theme you only have to choose 5 colors. The programmer-y decision is to let the user have full control and make them make dozens of decisions they didn't anticipate.

<comment><USER3> Ditto. The standard overly shiny Web 2.0 look is getting old but this cartoonish adds some new life to it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Pretty cool. Although it's a little jarring to see the mortgage form ask for a loan amount in dollars _and cents_. I've heard of microcredit, but...

</comment><comment><USER5> Any free open source javascript form builders like Wufoo's out there? I'd love to get one for Utility Mill.

<comment><USER6> Nothing that is as polished as to what WuFoo's done. Which is why they charge and people are willing to pay for it.

<comment><USER2> They wrote over 10 KLOC of straight JavaScript (in addition to all the backend serverside stuff), so you're right, they'd be insane not to charge.

<comment><USER7> Awesome, do you have any idea what language their app was written in? (server side)

<comment><USER8> It's written in PHP. <http://particletree.com/features/web-app-autopsy/>

<comment><USER7> Thankies! For some reason I just get a kick outta these guys. Love em.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is really neat. A web form to accept party invitations? That's not a bad idea at all.

</comment><comment><USER10> In addition to everything else, this is great marketing!

Don't understand our concept? Look at what others have done with it.

Chances are you will find something there that will strike a nerve.</comment>


For fun, here's a classifier that judges whether text is stupid or clever. - <AUTHOR> http://pythia.korokithakis.net/demo/

<comment><AUTHOR> I made this a while ago, it's still being refined and will be released as a service at some point, but here's a preliminary copy for you to play with. Just enter a comment and press the button, and it will tell you if your comment was stupid or clever.

To clarify, "stupid" and "clever" are only judged on style, not content, so something well-written but erroneous like "The sky is indubitably orange with green stripes" will be judged as clever.

For added fun, try pasting YouTube comments.

<comment><USER2> looks nice!

Is there any classifiers that you use to judge the cleverness of a given statement or simple regex? please don't mind I am just trying to learn a thing or two :D

<comment><AUTHOR> It does use a classifier, currently it's a naive bayes one, as we found that it produced the best results!

<comment><USER2> nice! if you don't mind, what other tools are you using ?

<comment><AUTHOR> What do you mean? What for?

<comment><USER2> Should have been more explicit with my question., I'll try to do it now.

With tools I meant, which standard libraries language serverside, training corpus etc., I hope to have made clear.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hmm, nothing standard, really... I just used vanilla python and the corpus is some texts and ungrammatical comments I've assembled from various sources...</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How Low Can Your Logo? - <AUTHOR> https://howlowcanyourlogo.com/ <comment><USER2> Fun! I wonder what the actual goal of the project is though.</comment>


New evidence that Nixon sabotaged 1968 Vietnam peace deal - how-about-this http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/nixons-vietnam-treachery.html <comment><AUTHOR> As far as I can tell, Nixon was a complete nutjob. Here he is on the possibility of nuking Vietnam (via Alex Wellerstein):

> But my favorite quotes are from Nixon about Vietnam. During a spring > offensive by the North Vietnamese in 1972, Nixon told Kissinger:

>> We're going to do it. I'm going to destroy the goddamn country, believe me, I mean destroy it if necessary. And let me say, even the nuclear weapons if necessary. It isn't necessary. But, you know, what I mean is, what shows you the extent to which I'm willing to go. By a nuclear weapon, I mean that we will bomb the living bejeezus out of North Vietnam and then if anybody interferes we will threaten the nuclear weapons.

> A week later, he continued to a somewhat horrified Kissinger:

>> Nixon: I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. Have you got that ready?

>> Kissinger: That, I think, would just be too much.

>> Nixon: A nuclear bomb, does that bother you?… I just want you to think big, Henry, for Christ's sake! The only place where you and I disagree is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about civilians, and I don't give a damn. I don't care.

>> Kissinger: I'm concerned about the civilians because I don't want the world to be mobilized against you as a butcher.

[http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/10/25/nixon-and-the- bomb...](http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2013/10/25/nixon-and-the-bomb/)

<comment><USER2> >As far as I can tell, Nixon was a complete nutjob

I agree, though, he has the disadvantage that a bunch of taped archives he never intended to leak...leaked.

I assume you would hear similarly disturbing quotes from other presidents if their private conversations got out.

<comment><USER3> Why would you assume that? Nuclear bombing and not caring about civilians is not normal behavior.

The Clinton emails were supposed to be private, yet never had anything close to that type of behavior.

<comment><USER4> There were a number of emails that alluded to "let's say no more and discus important stuff on other more secure channels". If I'm not mistaken. They were savvy enough not to put anything damming down in writing.

That's one of the reasons they were motivated to use private email. Because they were fully aware it was one FOIA away from being a public forum. But at the same time, all of the important stuff was via other channels. There was hardly any direct work stuff at all in those emails. Mostly just her foundation and campaign conversations.

<comment><USER5> There is no evidence that Clinton used private email in order to skirt FOIA.

<comment><USER6> Apparently there is:

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160623/09170034795/email...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160623/09170034795/emails- show-hillary-clintons-email-server-was-massive-security-headache-set-up-to- route-around-foia-requests.shtml)

<comment><USER5> There is one email in that blog post that mentions FOIA requests, and there is no response to it from Clinton saying that it's why she won't use her state.gov email address.

We already know why she used her own private email server — to use her Blackberry. This has been repeatedly established by the inquiries and the FBI investigation. We even have an email to Powell in 2009, well before any of the emails in that blog post, that shows her reason. [https://wikileaks.org/clinton- emails/emailid/30324](https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/30324)

<comment><USER6> Yet the state dept was willing to issue her an approved Blackberry which she declined.

Evidence exists to support this was intentional to hide information. Evidence doesn't equal proven. Granted it is not proven, but saying there exists no evidence doesn't seem to be accurate.

<comment><USER5> > Yet the state dept was willing to issue her an approved Blackberry which she > declined.

That is exactly backwards. She requested a Blackberry-like device similar to the one given to Obama but was denied. [https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/emails-s...](https://www.google.com/amp/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/emails- show-nsa-rejected-hillary-clinton-request-for-secure-smartphone/)

> Evidence exists to support this was intentional to hide information.

No such evidence exists, which is why all inquiries and investigations came to the conclusion I stated above.

<comment><USER6> She was offered a compliant Blackberry by Mull. [http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/23/heres-everything-we- know-s...](http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/23/heres-everything-we-know-so-far- about-hillarys-shady-blackberry-use/)

>No such evidence exists, which is why all inquiries and investigations came to the conclusion I stated above.

That doesn't mean there was no evidence. It only suggests that evidence wasn't proven. You can not draw the conclusion there was none.

The FBI also came to the conclusion that Clinton wasn't intelligent enough to understand confidential markings. Then the stunt the FBI pulled just before the election I would say the FBI has shown itself to be incompetent.

[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/7/fbis-comey- hi...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/7/fbis-comey-hillary- clinton-not-sophisticated-enoug/)

<comment><USER5> > She was offered a compliant Blackberry by Mull. > [http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/23/heres-everything-we- > know-s...](http://dailycaller.com/2016/03/23/heres-everything-we-know-s..).

Mull was the Executive Secretary of the State Department at the time he sent that email (two years after the NSA had denied Clinton's request). He was in no position to overrule the NSA and make that offer. At no point during Clinton's tenure were Blackberry devices authorized to access state.gov email servers. He was very likely referring to [http://www.zdnet.com/article/nsa- wanted-hillary-clinton-to-u...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/nsa-wanted- hillary-clinton-to-use-this-secure-windows-phone/), which was the only authorized device up to 2015 and was the device that the NSA offered (but not supported by State department infrastructure) [http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/nsa- re...](http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/nsa-refused- clinton-a-secure-blackberry-like-obama-so-she-used-her-own/).

> That doesn't mean there was no evidence.

Then where is it?

Aside: citing the Moonie Times and the Daily Caller projects know-nothingism. Here are the three top articles on the Daily Caller right now:

1\. Charlie Sheen Offers America The Most Insane Ticket To Take Down Trump

2\. TPM's Josh Marshall Reduced To Tweeting Porno Link Of 'Teasing, Licking' 'Angela & Strawberry'TPM's Josh Marshall Reduced To Tweeting Porno Link Of 'Teasing, Licking' 'Angela & Strawberry'

3\. 'F __K YOU. GO TO HELL': Georgetown Prof Loses It On Muslim Trump Voter'F __K YOU. GO TO HELL': Georgetown Prof Loses It On Muslim Trump Voter

None of this is news.

<comment><USER6> >Then where is it?

It was given. Apparently you don't like the source. Here's another. [http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp- content/uploads/2016/06/JW-v...](http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp- content/uploads/2016/06/JW-v-State-Mull-deposition-01363-1.pdf)

Also, there were a lot of questions being asked about FOIA considering there was no evidence. [http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press- releases/judic...](http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press- releases/judicial-watch-releases-new-hillary-clinton-email-answers-given- oath/)

Again, your original assertion is not defensible that there was no evidence. Again evidence does not equal proven. Simply there was information that suggests a rationale.

<comment><USER5> It's not that I didn't like the source. It's that the evidence didn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny. Mull simply did not have the ability to give Clinton a Blackberry.

Aside: you are aware of what Judicial Watch is, right? They're the conservative group that led the prosecution against Clinton on this issue and repeatedly failed. Of course they are going to ask questions about FOIA, the Espionage Act, and anything else they can try to stick on her. You're being misled by listening to only the prosecution and not the judge or the defense that totally dismantled their case.

<comment><USER6> >It's that the evidence didn't hold up to the most basic scrutiny

So there was evidence?

>Mull simply did not have the ability to give Clinton a Blackberry.

That is irrelevant to establishing a motive. The emails don't suggest that Clinton was aware of that fact and they do suggest that Mull for some reason thought this information that would be important to Clinton's decision.

>you are aware of what Judicial Watch is, right

Yes, but this is to be expected. When the right is in power, I expect left leaning groups to lead the charge to accountability and vice versa. It is rare that a group ever holds itself accountable.

>judge or the defense that totally dismantled their case.

They thought it was good enough to proceed with questioning. [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/judge-orders-clinton- answer-w...](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/judge-orders-clinton-answer- written-questions-email/story?id=41523306)

I'm not sure what you mean by dismantled. They requested a deposition and was granted. Clinton did not answer all questions and they have requested through federal court that she answer all questions. I have not seen an update on that request.

<comment><USER5> > So there was evidence?

Don't be facetious. That's like saying that there is evidence that the Sun revolves around the Earth because we see it pass overhead every day. That evidence doesn't hold up to basic scrutiny either.

> That is irrelevant to establishing a motive. The emails don't suggest that > Clinton was aware of that fact and they do suggest that Mull for some reason > thought this information that would be important to Clinton's decision.

The emails don't even suggest that Clinton saw Mull's offer, and they don't suggest that either Abedin or Clinton thought Mull's offer was viable after their experience with the NSA. Why should they waste their time with it if it wasn't going to go anywhere?

> Yes, but this is to be expected.

Exactly. Then why do you use them as your sole source? The Daily Caller article lifts its entire story from Judicial Watch's arguments. If you wanted to learn why those arguments didn't work the first n times, the other side's arguments are out there for you to see.

> They thought it was good enough to proceed with questioning.

He threw them a bone. He denied their motion to depose Clinton and instead sent her a written questionnaire. She returned her answers on October 13, containing exactly the same reasons she gave before for using the Blackberry.

<comment><USER6> >The emails don't even suggest that Clinton saw Mull's offer, and they don't suggest that either Abedin or Clinton thought Mull's offer was viable after their experience with the NSA. Why should they waste their time with it if it wasn't going to go anywhere?

You are making assumptions for which we don't know the answers. Which is exactly why such questions are asked to begin with.

>Then why do you use them as your sole source? The Daily Caller article lifts its entire story from Judicial Watch's arguments. If you wanted to learn why those arguments didn't work the first n times, the other side's arguments are out there for you to see.

Likewise then why do you suggest I simply dismiss claims by taking the other side's argument?

We can also assume it would be a defensive position. Evidence doesn't become no evidence based only on the other side's account. It might be determined to be weak, irrelevant to claims etc based on investigation.

Stating there was no evidence suggests there was 0 basis to make the claim prior to investigation. We don't in hindsight do the investigation and then look back and say the evidence isn't evidence. We can say the evidence wasn't conclusive or didn't support said claims strong enough to investigate further etc.

<comment><USER5> > You are making assumptions for which we don't know the answers.

You are making the claim that Clinton used her private server to skirt FOIA, and your evidence is that the Executive Secretary once sent an email about using a device approved by the State Department. Nowhere in the response does Clinton or anybody on Clinton's team say that they won't use this non-existent device because they want to skirt FOIA, yet somehow this constitutes (the sole) evidence to support your claim. Meanwhile, we have her entire email chain with the NSA and mountains of testimony under oath supporting the other conclusion that she used her personal server simply because she wanted to use her Blackberry.

> Likewise then why do you suggest I simply dismiss claims by taking the other > side's argument?

I don't. I'm simply suggesting that you discard arguments that have already been discarded. The side that has been attacking Clinton for 20 years isn't going to tell you which of their arguments didn't hold water.

Edit: This chain has reached maximum depth, and I can't reply any further. Can we agree that there is no _reasonable_ evidence that Clinton used her personal email server in order to skirt FOIA?

<comment><USER6> >You are making the claim that Clinton used her private server to skirt FOIA

I am not making that claim. I am asserting that evidence existed to suggest that is a possibility. I am not trying to prove the claim.

>mountains of testimony under oath

Yes, and this testimony occurred due to evidence that was being investigated.

It seems you are trying to prove to me the outcome or conclusions instead of whether or not any evidence existed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I highly recommend episode 1 of the "Ten American Presidents" podcast, it's an hour on Nixon by guest podcaster Dan Carlin (of Hardcore History & Common Sense fame): [http://podbay.fm/show/958858173/e/1421363033?autostart=1](http://podbay.fm/show/958858173/e/1421363033?autostart=1)

<comment><USER8> Ugh... why would they put music behind the entire podcast? It's unlistenable. Too bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wonder what evidence, if any, will arise about more contemporary presidents- elect making deals with heads of state with interests opposed to the American people's.

Would it surprise anyone to find direct communication and collusion?

<comment><USER10> Nothing would surprise me anymore. And I quite literally mean _nothing_. The utter disdain shown for rule of law, principles, heck, basic human decency in the last few months has me fantasizing about DC floating off into the ocean and sinking.

<comment><USER11> A counter-point or counter-perspective, would be the ongoing disabuse of those of us who were raised and... well, "indoctrinated", to believe in the paramountcy of e.g. "the rule of law".

During the course of my adult life, I've tried to hold true to that and other principles, only to have life show me with increasing discomfort and personal loss that, no, really, that's not the way the world works.

It has not worked that way _and it does not today work that way._ Nor does it even appear to be a realistic ideal towards which the world is striving.

Much of moral sentiment (as opposed to actual, demonstrated moral _behavior_ ) appears -- increasingly apparently, to me -- to be used to dupe the willing into sacrificing their own best interests.

Sad story is, perhaps, that in the long run this may also create or at least exacerbate larger conflagrations. Because people have not been taking care of their own affairs and their own neighborhoods.

At least, that's the approach I now, belatedly, consider. Nothing else is going to work for me, if my own life is not in some sort of reasonable state. Regardless of what some law, educator, or religious authority has to say.

<comment><USER12> Stop that. You'll frighten the children!

I agree that the world unfortunately does work that way. On the other hand, I do believe in the basic goodness of people. [For every bad cop there are probably a 1000 really good ones.] The "trick" to happiness is to surround yourself with nice people and maintain a "good world" bubble around yourself.

<comment><USER13> It has been said elsewhere more persuasively, but there are good police departments and bad police departments. One can't be a good cop and let bad cops get away with what they do. If one stands by, they are then a bad cop. Active of passive, one is still a bad cop.

<comment><USER12> I agree.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Yeah, that's worse than Watergate.

<comment><USER15> So was COINTELPRO but nobody ever talks about that either.

<comment><USER16> Yeah, MKULTRA too. Heinous times for American exceptionalism.

<comment><USER13> Or pot laws targeting hippies and blacks, [http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman- richa...](http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard- nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/)

<comment><USER17> Not to mention Nixon's manipulating the US dollar and economy in a way that was most disadvantageous to the greatest number of US citizens possible.

On a scale that could never have been achieved by a foreign power from outside.

To the degree that major ripples are still being felt today.

Unfortunately Nixon's crookedness & destructiveness was not widely recognized by the majority of the public until after it was growing out of control and undeniable, so once he was gone the damage continued and the momentum was big.

All of this is ancient history, but so many young people are not even aware.

After US citizens were paid less than $21/oz in paper currency when their gold was federally confiscated in 1933, then had that currency devalued less than a year later to $35/oz, for almost the next 40 years it was then illegal for US citizens to own or trade in gold. IOW, until those who were devastated at the time had passed on or were no longer a powerful voting constituency.

Daddy "Warbucks" had been a recurring character in the popular comic strip "Little Orphan Annie" over those decades.

By the time Nixon got there, the dollar had been at that stable $35/oz for decades and huge amounts of the US economy depended on that stability, especially to survive through unprofitable quarters or years.

When Nixon outlawed free enterprise temporarily in 1971 at the same time the dollar was allowed to float against gold ever since, it turned inflation from an annoyance into a huge sucking sound. It wouldn't have been such a strong nail in the middle-class coffin except there were statistically "no" citizens who had any gold whatsoever to legally participate in any appreciation in the dollar value of gold. And it would not be made legal to participate until years later, after the "Arab Oil Embargo" had been piled on, when few citizens had any remaining wherewithal, and gold had already skyrocketed after all that new oil money had been funneled overseas and driven up prices beforehand.

Time was slipping away, to save what was left of "the accumulated wealth of working people since incomes had been taxed" required until Nixon's direct involvement in the Watergate crimes became provable. By then the less- devastated near-half of the general population began to finally find themselves in the same boat as the more-devastated near-half. At that point it became universally realized that Nixon could not be removed fast enough.

After that, denial was universal too.

Even though Nixon had been popularly re-elected, overnight nobody even talked about him any more. It was such a relief. For years. The millions who knew he was compromised from the beginning were not saying I-told-you-so any more to the millions who had been duped. No disgrace was socially required from those who had supported Nixon to the end. But you could find "nobody" who would admit to having voted for Nixon the second time. This was avoided by no one talking about it.

Eventually, a more rosy collective retrospective developed over the years after millions of people had spent the time trying to find some element of Nixon's regime which could be respected in a way somewhat comparable to what you would expect from a good President. An instinctive response to try and salvage respect for an institution which was fully disgraced while they watched.

There was only thing that rose to the surface and could be widely accepted as positive, since it hadn't yet had any discernable effect;

"Nixon opened up China".

Turns out that if Nixon had not done it then, it would have likely taken almost 20 more years to have been set in motion by someone else, giving the middle-class about another two decades which might have been enough to allow their survival to this day.

Anyway, it's been 40 more years.

The value of middle-class dollars has now been almost fully confiscated as the federal government continues to build its war chest.

Interesting thing about currency wars, the general public can never know when (or if) they started or "finished", especially since they are providing the ammunition directly, bypassing all those expensive middlemen who are still trying to sell overpriced gunpowder to governments.

But that gunpowder needs to go somewhere or it will lose value (inflation!), and it may be only a matter of time before someone with lots of gunpowder tries to turn currency into the knife at a gunfight.

Again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Check out "The Untold History of the United States" on Netflix (Oliver Stone). In it, Stone says that Kennedy was ready to pull out of Vietnam before he was killed, but Johnson never agreed with that decision. So when Johnson became president to replace Kennedy, he doubled down on the war. I don't know how much of this documentary is true, and it has obvious biases, but it makes a lot of interesting points. Starts from WWII and goes on from there, in many parts.

</comment><comment><USER19> Terry Gross interviewed Nixon biographer Tim Weiner on her show Fresh Air. It's worth listening to. From prolonging the war, to starting the drug war for political gain, Nixon was a real jerk.

[http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/15/414615...](http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/06/15/414615258/fueled- by-fear-how-richard-nixon-became-one-man-against-the-world)

</comment><comment><USER20> 58.000 americans died ,after Tokin incident that never happend.

create an unwinnable war, globalist bankers invested and made money from both sides.

Rules of engagement not to win a war:

U.S. aircraft were prohibited from attacking North Vietnamese airfields, even in hot pursuit of North Vietnamese aircraft;

\-- "Extreme caution" was to be exercised in conducting air strikes so as not to endanger foreign shipping; in the Haiphong area, "every feasible precaution" was to be taken in conducting air strikes, including SAM suppression, to avoid endangering foreign shipping and to minimize civilian casualties and collateral damage

\-- Attacks on populated areas, locks and dams, and hydroelectric plants were prohibited;

\-- A thirty mile restricted area around Hanoi, with a ten mile prohibited area, and a ten mile restricted area around Haiphong;

[http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a283132.pdf](http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a283132.pdf)

When Rolling Thunder began, North Vietnam's air defense system did not amount to much and could have been destroyed easily. US policy, however, gave the North Vietnamese the time, free from attack, to build a formidable air defense.

The system consisted of anti-aircraft artillery, SA-2 surface-to-air missiles, MiG fighters, and radars, all of Soviet design, some supplied by the Soviet Union and some by China. The first SAM site in North Vietnam was detected April 5, 1965, but US airmen were not permitted to strike it.

[http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2005/Ma...](http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2005/March%202005/0305thunder.pdf)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Lavelle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Lavelle) "In 1965, we observed the construction of the first surface-to-air (SAM) sites in North Vietnam, and the military sought permission to attack them before they were completed to save American casualties. Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Affairs John McNaughton ridiculed the idea. "We won't bomb the SAM sites, which signals to North Vietnam not to use them."

<comment><USER15> The real war was against South Vietnam, against the NLF, later only the north and then the whole region - Laos and Cambodia too. Millions died, not just 58000 troops.

<comment><USER21> A statistic that is almost unreal -- there are still an estimated 80 million unexploded US bombs in Laos. What a deep, deep atrocity.

Cambodia got it almost as badly. Like Laos, more tons of bombs were dropped on tiny Cambodia than were dropped by the Allied forces in the entirety of World War II. I've told this story on HN before but I talked to some Cambodian men in Kompung Thom a few months ago who said they would salvage unexploded bombs as children and sell off the valuable parts. Up until recently 1000+ people were dying every year from land mines too, which were of course supplied by the Chinese and US governments. Cambodia has more land mine victims than any other country on earth, and you see them in the streets of Phnom Penh every day. It is sick that the United States is still selling off its stockpile of land mines.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Anna Chennault is still alive, at 91. [1]

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Chennault](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Chennault)

</comment><comment><USER23> Any way this can be construed as not treason?

</comment><comment><USER24> Nixon was paranoid and a jerk, but he looks like a reasonable gentleman compared to Trump. I weep for the next 4 years.

<comment><USER25> 4? I think it is quite possible that Trump will not make the whole term. He may be impeached, or pull a Nixon and resign himself.

<comment><USER26> Maybe, but it's hard to imagine him stepping down voluntarily, no matter what sort of scandals he's involved in.

<comment><USER25> He is may be vulnerable to manipulation due to his wide ranging financial interests. Then, some more toxic stuff may emerge from his past. I would guess that the chase is on by Russia, China, etc... for compromising material.

<comment><USER24> Russia already found it. Look how Trump is already kissing up to Putin.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Screen Shots: How I Use RSS to Track Thousands of News Sources Easily - <AUTHOR> http://marshallk.com/how-i-use-rss-to-track-thousands-of-news-sources-easily <comment><USER2> I use FeedDemon as I like having a dedicated app for this. FeedDemon used to be awesome when you paid for it; now that they have a free edition, it keeps getting more and more bloated - worst of all, it it 10x buggier today than it was 2-3 years ago :( Still the best I've found though.

It's here if anyone wants to use it: <http://www.newsgator.com/Individuals/FeedDemon/Default.aspx></comment>


'THE GOOD CENSOR': Leaked Google Briefing - <AUTHOR> https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/10/09/the-good-censor-leaked-google-briefing-admits-abandonment-of-free-speech-for-safety-and-civility/ <comment><USER2> > But the 85-page briefing, titled "The Good Censor," admits that Google and > other tech platforms now "control the majority of online conversations" and > have undertaken a "shift towards censorship" in response to unwelcome > political events around the world.

> Responding to the leak, an official Google source said the document should > be considered internal research, and not an official company position.

> The briefing labels the ideal of unfettered free speech on the internet a > "utopian narrative" that has been "undermined" by recent global events as > well as "bad behavior" on the part of users.

<comment><USER3> Rather than read Breitbart's twisted cherry-picked summary, it might be better to read the actual slides prior to form your own opinion.</comment></comment>


How we hacked a conference and got 120 high quality meetings in 2 days - <AUTHOR> http://blog.pipecandy.com/conference-hack-irce/ <comment><USER2> While the idea of researching conference delegates is nothing new, the personalization and form-factor of the cards makes all the difference. Would be interesting to know the conversion ratio for these leads vis-a-vis other channels.</comment>


Amazon's surveillance-powered no-checkout convenience store - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/21/inside-amazons-surveillance-powered-no-checkout-convenience-store/ <comment><USER2> So the system requires each subsection of a shelf to have a working weight sensor? Is that really do-able in a shop where the general public will be repeatedly knocking, bashing and generally ill-treating it? Most regular stores that I've been in will have plenty of wonky looking shelves, broken shelf tickets and so on...

If a sensor fails, presumably Amazon is going to lose track of, or at least, lose accuracy in tracking of, some product. The cameras aren't a foolproof backup for this (since, if they were, why bother with the complexity and expense of weight sensors at all?) To me it suggests that these stores are going to need a hell of a lot of maintenance.

<comment><USER3> I'd agree, but we already have the imperfect ones you get from self-service checkouts, and they work a decent enough amount of the time they might suffice?

It's the more human element that'll be interesting to me - you see people pick something up and put it back in the wrong place all of the time. Just think about the poor staffer who'll get the "item in the wrong place" ping through their headset every 30 seconds. Am assuming Amazon will use skeleton crews to run these, so they'll be rushed just picking up the pieces (quite literally).

<comment><USER2> The self-service checkouts is a good point - but in my experience at least 10% of those are regularly out of service, and they are large systems that are meant to be robust. I can't see how that will scale up to thousands of product lines. As you say though, the staff will probably be far more busy replacing items...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > _It's a bit overkill, I think, to replace a checker or self-checkout stand > with a hundred cameras that unblinkingly record every tiny movement. What's > to gain? 20 or 30 seconds of your time back?_

My thoughts exactly. What's the point of all this? What is the problem that they're trying to solve?

Also, the monitoring done in that kind of store is very different from security monitoring systems we have today, because it knows who it's watching. The fact that it doesn't use facial recognition is pointless since it has your identity and account # the minute you enter the store.

It can study _you_ : not just what you buy, but how you think.

I'm also curious if it would work with how I shop. Usually in small supermarkets I put my bag or trolley in one corner of the shop and bring products back to it. It's maybe a little inefficient but it lets me walk unencumbered. Would it know my bag is mine?

<comment><USER5> I don't understand this "20 or 30 seconds" comment, it takes more like 20 _minutes_ to wait in line and scan all items, then pay. I use Uber mainly because I can walk out the cab without paying, and that's a real twenty seconds.

<comment><USER6> 20 minutes?

In France we have these manual scanners that you can carry around the supermarket and scan items as you put them in your bag. Then when you exit the store, semi-randomly an employee will rescan part of your items, or all of them (it happens more often if you often forget to scan things - which can happen, but it can also be wilful shoplifting of course). Then you pay and the gate opens.

Most of the time it does take about 30 seconds, also you don't have to get your stuff out of your bag and you know all along how much you're going to pay.

I think I haven't used the regular lines for years.

<comment><USER7> >Most of the time it does take about 30 seconds, also you don't have to get your stuff out of your bag and you know all along how much you're going to pay.

And this latter has an interesting side effect.

At the time these readers were introduced the "message" to the public was "your convenience, faster checkout" (while actually the reason was "let us reduce the number of cashiers").

What was soon found out was that the "poor man's average shopping" was raised by some 10-15%.

Imagine you go to the supermarket and you only have in your pocket a single 50 Euro (or 50 dollars) note.

You put things in your basket making a mental calculation of the total amount in order to avoid, when you checkout, if the total is more than 50, to have to leave some item (and also to avoid the "social shame").

With the new method, where you can see your progressive total, that kind of shopping has raised from 42-45 to 48-50, i.e. people use "all they have" without risking to "look bad".

<comment><USER8> who is this hypothetical poor man who's so bad at managing money that an exact total of the amount he's spending will cause him to overspend ?

<comment><USER7> >who is this hypothetical poor man who's so bad at managing money that an exact total of the amount he's spending will cause him to overspend ?

It is not hypothetical, it is a peculiar - but not so uncommon - man/woman with a limited amount of money in his/her hands (and of course no credit card or similar), the single 50 in the example (but it could be 20 or 100) banknote.

He/she is willing to spend the whole amount of money, but before didn't because he/she was afraid to be seen as having only that given limited amount of money and by making approximate mental calculation tended to undereestimate (or if you prefer preferred to be on the safe side).

With the barcode reader he/she can spend the whole amount of money he/she has available with no risk of appearing (to the cashier, to the people in queue) as "poor".

The poiont is not that with the new system this kind of "poor" people overspend, rather it is that before it underspent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's strange that news organizations take such a cynical tone with new technology. Really? "Surveillance-powered convenience store"? Are we suppose to call TechCrunch a "surveillance-powered ad powerhouse"? Or Tesla "surveillance-powered vehicles"?

All stores are already equipped with security cameras to prevent theft. When you're in someone's shop, you don't have an expectation of privacy. Amazon merely took it one more step and made it easier for you to checkout.

<comment><USER10> This comment is something an apologist of surveillance would write.

Yes, it is a surveillance powered store. That's what it literally is. Just like Alexa and Google Home are literal always-on listening devices in your home.

Edit: A bit more context in case someone misunderstands. New technology can improve one's life exponentially. But it is simulataneously capable of exacting great harm.

<comment><USER9> Everything in modern society is "surveillanced". The highways you drive on (highway cameras), the news sites you read (ad tracking), the dollars you make (IRS). Someone somewhere knows these things. Specifically pointing out something is "surveillance-powered" without context is agenda-driven.

<comment><USER10> I agree, but we have to be careful not to give a pass to our industry to do whatever they want.

And it isn't necessarily agenda-driven by TechCrunch. As you said, they are ads/analytics based. So it follows that they will produce content that gets maximum eyeballs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> One thing I didn't seem to find any mention of in the article is what happens if you take an item off the shelf to inspect it and then put it back --- or misplace it somewhere else, as often happens with other stores? Hopefully the system can determine that you've left product behind, since otherwise it would negate one of the huge advantages of having a physical store: you can inspect and select before buying.

<comment><USER12> [https://www.amazon.com/go](https://www.amazon.com/go) there's a helpful video

EDIT: To explicitly state it. It handles that. It has a "vritual cart" as you pick things up and put them back.

Disclosure: I work for Amazon but have no affiliation with the Amazon Go program.

<comment><USER13> What if it's so crowded that no camera sees the object as you put it back? Is there a limit on the max number of shoppers?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I go to a 7 11 down the street. There is a guy in there that works the checkout. He always greets everyone with the biggest smile youve ever seen and I find myself feeling a little better as I leave.

When I get outside I think to myself, this guy probably does that to every single customer for at least 8 hrs a day. For how much reward? Then I think a little about automation, eat my donut, and head to work.

<comment><USER15> At my usual supermarket, there's a checkout operator who is so awkward people actively avoid him and prefer queues over his emptier lane.

With a largely automated shop, we lose out on human contact, but then the same applies with online shopping too. On the other hand, I think we'll eventually recall those crazy days where there were checkout operators tallying products. Already when I visit the States, I find it bizarre when there is second person bagging products! The first time I went to China (1991), the department store checkout operators used an abacus to sum sales. Even when they had a cash register, they used it purely for the cash drawer and still favoured the abacus!

Eventually, I think the majority of people will actually not actively make purchasing decisions in entire categories. Choosing and shopping yourself will be a premium thing. In the future, I can see a large swathe of people taking cheaper subscriptions whereby they are delivered products decided by algorithm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I don't see what is so cynical about 'surveillance-powered convenience store's. Having surveillance in a store doesn't have any negative connotation for me, and 'surveillance-powered' is a good way to describe what makes this store unique

</comment><comment><USER17> Once they've ironed out the tech, they will certainly roll this out to Wholefoods. Your margin is Amazon's opportunity.

<comment><USER18> Wholefoods has a lot of produce and grains sold by weight. I wonder how that will work.

<comment><USER17> The system knows the weight of the grain container before the customer takes any grain.

It also knows the weight of the container after the customer takes some, so it's not too hard to figure out how much was taken.

There will be exceptions where this is not the case (e.g. grain accidentally spills), but it will work 99.9% of the time, and then as the article mentions, for the other times there will be an attendant to sort out any issues.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If the future of grocery shopping is between grocery delivery that you order over the Internet (linked to your account and browsing habits) or using such a surveillance store, the privacy implications are probably not that different either way. Privacy is already in a bad enough state that stores like that probably don't make a big difference anymore either. They are just more creepy because commerce exclusive to the 'real world' seemed like the last safe haven for privacy (provided you were able to pay in cash and didn't use loyalty cards or other offline cookies).

I also can't help but think that they just put those employees there for PR reasons. No matter how Amazon tries to spin it, a majority of jobs will be lost. Maybe that's inevitable, but then we should face it instead of pretending you can just put them somewhere else in your automated store.

</comment><comment><USER20> Will this actually work? How is this going to be reliable with arms, hands, clothes, other people and other products blocking the view of the cameras?

I wonder why they didn't put cameras in the shopping basket instead. At least then it would always have a clear view of items going in and out.

<comment><USER21> Do you think they would have opened it if they didn't have a pretty high degree of confidence that it was working? It's been in beta for quite some time.

There are better places to steal from than those with massive numbers of cameras pointed at you from all directions.

<comment><USER22> I think the bigger deterrence is to get in the front door they already have your name, address, and card on file.

That said, several articles have mentioned Amazon intentionally is NOT using facial recognition as part of the tech.

<comment><USER21> I'm not referring to facial recognition. I'm saying if you shoplift, they are going to be able to provide the cops with video evidence, and they will know who you are.

<comment><USER13> The bigger problem is if they overcharge too many customers. Having to complain afterwards because it lists items you didn't buy eliminates the advantages of faster checkouts.

<comment><USER21> That's very true. And if they are not confident about their predictions then it might be difficult to push back when people fraudulently claim to not have purchased something.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Cameras seem like such a crude expensive approach to doing this. And there has to be exploitable holes.

Recently was watching a Western movie where a person goes into a shop. The goods are all behind the counter. The person points out what they want, the clerk retrieves it.

Big vending machines with phone interface possibly. Maybe a full shelf as shown in photo behind wire or glass and a robotic arm like the ones seen in Amazon warehouses. That way people can kick the screen and curse when the robotic arm fails to deliver the correct good and no clerks are harmed in the process.

</comment><comment><USER24> > Our roughly 1,800 square feet of retail space is conveniently compact so > busy customers can get in and out fast.

Isn't this a bit small for a store? The tiny 2 bedroom apartment I live in is 1400sqft.

<comment><USER25> In what part of the world is 1400sqft considered tiny? That is 130m^2, which would be considered a pretty decent size appartement here in Austria. You don't find many appartments as big as that in a city here. (We're a family of 4, and we live in a 80m^2 appartement)

<comment><USER24> I'm in Bangalore and live with my wife. Compared to what our parents, we always complain about how small our living space is. They have lived their lives in small towns/villages in houses with nice large rooms and huge backyards, all of which is only a pipe dream for us now in our 21st storey pigeon-hole.

I always assumed European countries with their lower population densities would be inclined towards larger living spaces than us. Seems like that may not be generally true.

<comment><USER18> I had to go look up average apartment size in Bangalore to make sure you had the correct number. 130m² is a pretty large apartment size in Europe.

We live in 70m² and find it decently sized. And I work remotely so I'm in it all day long. We pay 800€/month, it would be much higher if we were closer to a city center.

We have a bedroom and a study, even two small bathrooms. It does have a backyard that is not counted I in the size. Most people I know live in similarly sized apartments.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> The entrance turnstiles make the shop look very family-unfriendly. How do you go shopping with kids? Or just while out with a friend?

</comment><comment><USER26> Imagine the exploits! A crowd of high school kids, milling in a tight group, grabbing bottles of wine and putting back bottles of water from under their coats, trading items around, taking cheap cans from one rack and swapping them in for expensive caviar etc on another rack.

It boggles the mind.

<comment><USER27> Alcohol requires an attendee to check ID before being taken from the shelf. There are other employees on site to monitor, answer questions and restock.

You seem to have the impression that no checkout == no employees. This is not the case.

<comment><USER13> But if employees still check for accuracy, is the system really faster than a normal supermarket? Can imagine it being only slightly faster for a much higher price. Might work in the beginning when everyone wants to try it but I doubt it can appeal to a wider range of people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Folks, all stores have cameras surveying shoppers. I challenge you to find a store that does not.

<comment><USER29> Loads of stores in Netherlands don't have camera's. It's super easy to find _loads_ of stores without them.

<comment><USER28> Well, that's the netherlands. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> In the wild this tech will get ripped to shreds. The exploits will be endless. And the interesting question is: is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale? Not really, so it is open season.

<comment><USER31> >is it really shoplifting if their system fails to register the sale?

Why wouldn't it be shoplifting here if it is at any other store? If the cashiers and loss prevention officers don't notice you walking out with merchandise in your pocket, is it somehow worse because their eyes and brains are made of flesh instead of plastic and metal?

<comment><USER32> Well, you don't know what the system registers until you walk out and get an email receipt a couple of minutes later.

<comment><USER31> True. That sounds like a fine excuse for the accidental cases. When you are deliberately making an attempt to deceive the system, that is where it crosses the line.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Anyone know if prices are on items?

On shelves?

On app screen?

And are the same for each customer?

</comment><comment><USER34> BingoBox has had automated convenience stores in China for months now.[1][2] They're about the size of a shipping container. Amazon is coming from behind here.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIt0lTcqaw) [2] [https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8](https://youtu.be/l7DLmBYk6c8)

<comment><USER35> Very different tech stack and UX in these products. BingoBox still requires users to scan their own groceries. It's basically the self-checkout line in Safeway.

<comment><USER34> They check visually at the door to see if you took something you shouldn't. It's not airtight, but it's enough to prevent abuse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Something I've not seen an answer to in any article about this concept: I'm slightly above average height, so occasionally people somewhat below average height ask me to reach things down from high shelves in supermarkets.

What happens if I do that in an Amazon Go shop?

<comment><USER37> More questions somewhat in this same vein: Can you take your family with you? What happens, if your 5-year-old grabs his favorite sweet and brings it up to you to ask you whether he can have it? Can you put things back into the shelves?</comment></comment>


Flick = 1/705600000 Second - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/OculusVR/Flicks <comment><USER2> An article about that explains some of the details for a layman was posted yesterday [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633500](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21633500)

</comment><comment><USER3> I can't believe that humanity is getting stuck basically forever with those 1000/1001-division frame rates. Instead of purging this complexity, everyone seems to be adopting it.</comment>