Show HN: I'm 14, please check out my iOS game - <AUTHOR> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id551440345?mt=8 <comment><USER2> Hey man, nice job! As someone (a 25yr old) who picked up programming within the last year or so, I'm pretty jealous that you got such an early start! How long did this take you to build?

Also, it seems like you're going to be building lots of things, so here's a tip: don't pay attention to most of the negative things people say here; they can't stand to see someone as young as you being more productive than them.

Looking forward to see what you do next!

<comment><USER3> Thanks for posting something like this. I clicked the link cynically expecting the top post to be someone whining about the poster feeling the need to mention his age.

<comment><USER4> Yeah me too but was gladly disappointed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Congratulations on not only getting into programming, but having the tenacity to finish and ship an actual product. I also started programming at your age and I am glad I had such a head start. My advice would be keep learning all you can about professional software development and all the related fields (networking, system administration, database admin, etc), and prepare yourself for the future opportunities that will likely be coming your way.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really appreciate your advice. Thank you so much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Seriously, give the kid a break.

Let's be honest here. If he didn't write in the title that he was 14, this post would not have made front page. The kid was smart enough to include it in the title, probably knowing that a few HN users here will moan about it, but it was worth the risk and got the post some attention. Kudos.

Keep developing apps and good luck!

<comment><USER7> I loathe when people _lead_ with their ages because

1) It mitigates potentially valuable criticism, replacing it with a chorus of "good jobs," etc., when the app (like all apps) is going to have flaws.

2) It seems manipulatory and superfluous.

In the case of the former, it just doesn't make sense to resort to such condescension because of his age. If he is capable of developing and now marketing an app, is is capable of getting honest feedback for said app. This homogenous array of kudos is doing him a disservice.

In the case of the latter, most will say that his age is significant because it is inordinately low. Because of this, he should be lauded for any effort he puts forth. But there is no logical basis for this. 14-year-olds face similar constraints as 18-year-olds, who probably face a similarly-difficult learning curve as 30-year-olds. Just because a number is low does not mean it has meaning. He has not overcome any substancial barriers that anyone else of any other age does not face while learning the trade. Yet, people give his age meaning. If he had not listed his age, he would have probably gotten serious critiques, or not have made it to the front page at all. In development, age is more-or-less arbitrary. Just because he happened to begin learning earlier does not mean he disserves more praise than someone who began in college.

He obviously recognizes this and has used it to his advantage. I can't blame him, but I can be irked by it and by people's response to it.

I've always been of the belief that a product should be evaluated independent of it's creator. The specific position of the individual doesn't change the quality of the product. Knowledge of the creator of a product can only muddy one's opinion of said product. This is why I don't give take into account when developers decry that I ought to "support" them because they are "independent." I don't care about their employment situation. The only thing that is of importance to me is the quality of their app. If it is good and the price seems fair, I will buy it. If it does not meet those criterion, I won't. The same thing holds true for the developer in the OP. If the app is good, it ought to be recognized as such. The issue is that I don't believe that it is, and that its quality has been subjected to artificial inflation because of unrelated fact about the developer.

I'm not saying the app is not good. I just think people need to be more honest and less subject to "age bias."

(For the record, I am of a similar age and always refrain from giving my age. As a result, my work is rarely lauded, likely because my things, much the same as the OP's, aren't that great. I'm just aware of that fact and don't really care about lowering the bar.)

<comment><USER8> For the record, why would you post <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4807691> titled "Show HN: I'm 16, and I made a thing" if you are so irked by people using their age on hacker news?

You were either being a troll or you are a hypocrite. Have you actually seen this app? It's impressive regardless of age. It's gameplay and graphics are comparable, if not better, to fruit ninja. Being 14 is just a plus, it doesn't make the app any better or worse. If anything, it's inspiring (as I said elsewhere in the comments) for people of all ages to make and ship.

Quite frankly, it sounds like you are bitter because someone around the same age of you is receiving recognition and praise for their work.

>>But there is no logical basis for this. 14-year-olds face similar constraints as 18-year-olds, who probably face a similarly-difficult learning curve as 30-year-olds.

I disagree. People 18+, in college, adults, usually have either more experience (whether than be programming or learning how to learn) or perhaps some type of formal computer science background.

>> If it is good and the price seems fair, I will buy it.

If you actually clicked the link or tried the game, you would notice that it's free.

If you really believed in what you are writing, you would have no problem commenting constructive criticism about the app itself rather than ranting about posting an age in the title.

For the record, I'm 16 and I'm not making a big deal about the age in the post or being irked that someone younger than me is receive praise for his work. I think the game that NShen made is awesome.

<comment><USER7> 1) It's referred to as "satire." It's fairly conspicuous considering that I left out a description of the actual product, placing emphasis only on the age. It was an attempt to demonstrate the absurdity of this practice.

2)The app is a fine app. I don't believe that it is comparable to Fruit Ninja, but still a fine app. Why does this make me either a hypocrite or a troll? How is the quality of his app pertinent to my actions at all?

3) This is an entirely unfounded ad hominem attack. If you really believe this, then I give up. I can't argue against people who dismiss me because they think I'm envious. I think my points are of merit and pertinent to the conversation. This is supported by the healthy number of up-votes it has. If you want to dismiss it as "bitterness," I can't stop you and I don't really care.

4) I'm not comparing ages, I'm comparing stages of learning programming. Whether he's 14 or 40, he has only recently begun programming. A beginner at 40 will face similar challenges. Learning a new skill is difficult for anyone of any age. Your logic is either a) circular and incoherent inasmuch as it is predicated on having prior knowledge about programming when one is first learning programming, or b) not applicable because it deals with a factor that, as I've already said in my above post, is irrelevant.

5) The pricing comment did not pertain in any way to his app. It was directed at the "support independent developers" argument to which I drew parallels from his practice. I am aware that the app is free. If you actually read my comment and considered it, you would notice that it's not directed at the kid.

5) What dictates that I can only provide criticism about the app itself? It is totally within the realm of reason that I critique his marketing practices, etc. Why does the fact that I criticized his use of the age belie my "belief in what I'm writing?" Why is this a rant? It was a pretty well-structured argument touching on what is considered a contentious practice.

6) No, you are making an (unwarranted and incoherent) big deal about the fact that I did. I think his app is fine. I wouldn't use it, though.

<comment><USER9> With such a long response, one would expect there would be something said about the damning part of his post:

"For the record, why would you post <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4807691> titled "Show HN: I'm 16, and I made a thing" if you are so irked by people using their age on hacker news?"

vs

"For the record, I am of a similar age and always refrain from giving my age."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> How long before we see a blog entitled "How I hacked my way to the HN front page by pretending to be 14"

<comment><USER11> HN needs less cynicism, not more.

<comment><USER12> I took it more as an absurd joke... I don't think he was seriously suggesting that someone would do this.

<comment><USER13> _> I don't think he was seriously suggesting that someone would do this._

Somebody _will_ do this at some point I'm sure. Such tricks go on everywhere were user voting affects the position of a post in a given site/area, and following people using the trick you will get others trying to claim kudos for having come up with it in the first place.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> What?! To all the people asking, why does his age matter, well, it does matter.

1) Most 14 year olds can't make iOS games. It inspires other youngsters.

2) It's cool to see what someone of that age can achieve. All self taught (I assume). It shows how far someone can get, without a diploma.

Pay attention to negative comments, where they are constructive. And to people just being negative, without being constructive, well, that's the internet for you unfortunately. Keep on going, show all those negative people what you can achieve/build/do.

What I'm interested in, did you use helpful tools, or did you build this from scratch in Objective C? I hope you make a nice amount of money with this game, and the rest that are to come. Keep on building!

</comment><comment><USER15> Listen, I don't mean to downplay your achievement. You've done a great thing I can only envy. You did a great job, seeing a game project through to the end.

But I just wish you wouldn't lead with "I'm X years old", I see these things all the time on reddit and I'm not overly fond of the practice coming to HN.

</comment><comment><USER16> Focus more on the content not age, ethnics or whatever.

<comment><AUTHOR> Appreciate your advice. I will keep this in mind.

<comment><USER17> I disagree with the parent's comment. It is useful to know your age. In the real world, I would not usually interact with a 14-year-old in the same way that I would interact with, for example, a 20-year-old. I think the context you provide helps others to tailor their feedback.

That being said: nice job! Why do you like creating games?

<comment><USER18> The OP could have included their age in a comment on the post.

By including their age in the post title they have, inadvertently or not, 'gamed' the system.

If this is right or wrong isn't really the question, but neither the title nor the top comments have told me anything _about_ the game in question, except that it was by someone claiming to be 14.

To that end, titles like this I believe add little to the community. I would much rather see some information about what exactly is being shown, beyond the age of the author.

Aside from that, well done to the OP for finishing something and getting it published. That is something many never manage to do.

[edit] typo

<comment><USER19> Shipping doesn't get you on the homepage of HN anymore; having a grabbing title does.

Whether that's good or bad, it's true and nshen succeeded on both fronts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a bit ridiculous to be honest. I'm 15 and don't consider myself a programming, in fact I would say I can't program at all. But me and a friend "wrote"(well, we modified a few examples we found online and using a lot of pre-written code) a few Android apps one or two years ago. It was far away from this advanced thing as a game, but I don't really think it's a huge thing just because he's 14. Also, there is tools[1] these days that do most stuff for you. Using them I would probably been able to ship apps and games back when I got into these stuff. I don't want to ship products though, well not anymore, I want to write good code.

[1] <https://www.scirra.com/> <http://andromo.com/>

<comment><USER8> Well, it's not the same to publish apps which have drag drop interfaces and don't involve programming and programming a game with unity (game engine used by JuggleIt). Just because you could create an app without programming or using pre-written code doesn't make a game less "good".

Also, what is ridiculous about this?

<comment><USER20> Of course it doesn't make the game less good, but it's not like this kid did something extremely remarkable thing like some people here seem to make it. That's what makes it a bit ridiculous.

<comment><USER21> The game itself doesn't matter, it's the appreciation that matters; his persistence, his urge to learn and to create something – that's what matters most. This kid did something that he should be proud of.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> What the meaning of title? You are young, so we need to give you more than other? That is not the thing works. Your game is in one market, and customers do not care about who you are or how old are you. If you do good job, there always will be someone brought your game.

<comment><USER23> OP is interesting to me because of the author's age, so I am glad it was in the title. You are correct that most customers on the App Store don't care about the author's age, but this is Hacker News, not Consumer News, and I find it interesting to know what young hackers are capable of with the tools and distribution platforms available to them today.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> >Requirements: Compatible with iPhone 3GS

>WARNING: __Juggle It is NOT compatible with any NON-RETINA devices, including the iPhone 3GS and below.

wtf?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah sorry, apple is not a big fan of blocking devices off unless you use hardware requirements that older devices don't have.

Since, I don't use (for example) a front-facing-camera in my game per se. I can't block out iPhone3GS users.

<comment><USER25> I think the WTF was more about the requirement itself – why would the game require a retina device?

In any case, congratulations on shipping your game!

<comment><USER26> Supporting non-retina can be a lot of extra work.

<comment><USER27> Is it just because you have to have different size copies of graphics, and other such adjustments?

<comment><USER26> It means all your graphics have to be in dimensions divisible by 2, or you have to change how you lay things out if not (and do more work to scale odd dimensions). Even when everything is, graphics can look terrible when you resize naively, depending. Sometimes you have to recreate graphics manually at different dimensions to get better antialiasing and things.

<comment><AUTHOR> Damn, you really know your stuff, props.

Anyways now you guys all know why I didn't support non-retina devices :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Well done on starting early. I can say from experience that it's a great boost. I started programming when I was 12, made a few $1000 before I was 15 (in my mind I was a millionaire), then turned to Android games in 2008, working only on my own side projects.

Then, after graduating with a non-CS/programming degree, I was invited into a 6 figure job, have seen a near 100% salary boost in 18 months, and am given far more responsibility and freedom than any of my co-workers - who are all several years older than me.

In summary: Keep going and work only on projects you enjoy, and even if you don't make it on the App Store yourself, you'll reap the benefits when you outshine 99% of your graduating year. In todays tech world, there are plenty of people out there who value the teach-yourself approach, and the years of experience, over the CS majors.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, that's a very inspiring story. I will keep this in mind as I continue to develop more and more games. :)

<comment><USER28> Some things that I could have done better would have been to learn some more basic fundamentals. The sort of (arguably pointless) stuff that they grill you at some interviews about.

That, and learning the jargon. After years of hacking away at my own things, there were a number of times where I was conversation with someone, and we were talking about something - patterns/concepts, and I can tell you everything I know about it. Except what it's called!

This is all the sort of stuff that you'll pick up in CS, should you opt for that. But personally, I think having the opportunity to go into another field and still being able to keep up your programming on the side, can be really rewarding. Having done that, I'm working alongside CS majors -- but in the back of my mind, on top of all that I do now, I have years of Master's level physics creeping around.

So, when you get to the age you start applying to schools, think twice before just jumping straight to CS if you already know your stuff.

Good luck!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> As a fellow 14 year old with a working product (mine's used internally within my school, but deployed at daltonplanner.appspot.com), congrats! It's nice seeing another "kid" around here on HN.

</comment><comment><USER30> Did you also make "Save The Cubes"? I've been enjoying that since finding it in the "other apps by this developer" section. Really imaginative premise, like the style too.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup, Save The Cubes was my first, less polished, title. I'm glad you enjoyed it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Seriously well done. It's an achievement regardless of your age. But that you are 14 just makes me think more highly of this for a variety of reasons. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER32> As someone a decade older than you with a CS degree who has yet to ship a mobile app, I salute you nshen! Keep doing what you're doing.

As for the game, I have only positive things to say. I think it's very well done overall. The juggling/swiping works smoothly. The falling items look great. Love the addition of bombs and power ups. Overall, the simplicity of it is what stands to me the most. Many of the games that catch on as addictive time-wasters have simple premises. I think you've found one.

Have you given any thought to a two-player mode? Either cooperative or head- to-head battle?

My only advice is to listen critically to your feedback, but trust your gut. Navigating through everything people say can be a challenge. If you haven't already, I'd read up on the subject. Here's a little article to get your started: [http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell- yo...](http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-you-what- they-want)

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER33> As a casual observer (I'm not going to download the game as I have a lot of deadlines!), I'd suggest taking another look at your copy. I think you'll inspire more confidence to buy later on if you take it easy on the caps and paragraph spacing (good ol' Angry Birds is pretty professional <https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/angry-birds/id343200656?mt=8> as is Mighty Winds <https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/lostwinds/id477973472?mt=8> ). Of course, I don't really buy iPhone games so if someone more experienced in the field tells me I'm completely off I'll instantly concede :)

</comment><comment><USER34> Nice work. Couple specific things that came to mind:

\- Love the music (reminds me of Truman Show). It somehow adds to the weirdness of the game. Would like to hear a little more variety but within that same style.

\- Cool little feature would be for the sun to set and rise as time progresses (1 day = 1 minute or something like that). Would add a little visual fluff and more graphics stuff for you to experiment with.

Again, well done! Keep it up and continue to broaden your technical horizons.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, great feedback! I'll be sure to implement this in the next update!

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> The arguments above are more about HN as a community (and how it self- regulates/self-analyzes, its values) than your achievement. The fact that you've completed this game is still amazing to us all, that remains unchanged whether you were 14, 24 or 34. My only hope is that you get to focus from your age and keep building on your talent. Great job.

</comment><comment><USER36> Great work nshen! Do you have a site up too, or just the app? Good job finding a control scheme that works really well on mobile.

<comment><USER8> <http://cubegrinder.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Wow, good job. You should write a blog post about why you decided to write an iOS game, how you learned, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> I really like that idea! Hopefully I will get to doing this very, very soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Nick - Congrats on finishing a game - that's the biggest hurdle most developers face. It's great that you have such an awesome headstart. Keep at it and you should be a pretty good programmer by the time you get into college.

EDIT: Obviously, not to say you're not good right now.

<comment><AUTHOR> I appreciate your compliments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> This is a great game and it's well-suited for the iPhone format. It took me a few minutes playing the "Frenzy" mode before I realized I could use both thumbs (duh). How are you liking Unity compared to Obj-C?

</comment><comment><USER40> How old we're you when you started in development? How? Is this your first?

<comment><AUTHOR> 1) I started programming around the age of 11-ish when my mom was laid off.

2) Initially, I learned from <http://www.icodeblog.com> before switching to Unity.

3) Juggle It is actually my second game.

Thanks for your support.

<comment><USER41> > when my mom was laid off.

Not sure what the relevance is of this. Was that inspiration for you to try make some money and support your family?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup, I was inspired to work and make money because of this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Great work. I was pleasantly surprised by how polished it felt. Could you please speak to how you refined it before releasing it? Were you getting feedback on it from beta testers?

<comment><AUTHOR> I made sure to test it thoroughly before submitting it to the app store. My testing group was merely friends + family, but after 5-10 rounds of testing, most of the bugs were caught.

Hope that helps!

<comment><USER42> The game feels well refined in terms of engagement. The difficulty builds at a good pace, and the achievements seem to be spaced out well. The balance you struck between challenge and reward is remarkable.

I was also fortunate enough to have the opportunity to learn programming at a young age, but I didn't understand user engagement until I was much older.

Best of luck to you. I'll be subscribing to your blog and following your ongoing programming adventures! And to reinforce other comments here, I would be interested in some "making of" posts.

PS- Great music. I love that you invested time in all the details like music and sound effects.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the encouragement! I will definitely try to find time to post more on my blog!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Great work! I really like the art in this game. Did you create it yourself? What tools did you use?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yup. I used blender for all of the 3d models.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Great work on releasing an app. Keep working on more apps and keep challenging yourself! :)

</comment><comment><USER45> Congrats on the game!

...when I sold my first software at 11 I did not make a big fuzz about my age, though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you very much for your kind words. I agree, my title could use some work. How did you market your first piece of software?

Can you shed some light on your success?

</comment></comment><comment> J-H Haven't played yet, but from the screenshots: Great Graphics! Keep up the good work!

</comment><comment><USER46> Looks cool! What inspired the llama theme?

<comment><AUTHOR> They look funny.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Nick, You are awesome.

-Rohan

</comment><comment><USER47> Stay in school, kid!

<comment><USER48> There's no better schooling than shipping working code.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Too old.

</comment><comment><USER50> I am 12 and I flagged your post.

<comment><AUTHOR> May I ask why? I actually am 14, and I did make this game. It says such in the credits page in my game.

Here is proof:<http://cubegrinder.com/hacker-news-post-is-not-spam/>

I just made a post on the official cubegrinder website.

I'm sorry if there has been a misunderstanding.

<comment><USER51> I think GP was making a joke, a la "I am 12 and what is this."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> Hmmm... Account created an hour ago. Username unrelated to name of author on site...

Flagged as spam.

<comment><USER53> I think it is the author of the game, they've posted elsewhere before with "I'm 13 and this is my first game" so it seems plausible they'd do the same (mention age) here. Not sure what someone would stand to gain from lying about someone else's game?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey guys, I am the developer, I just decided to use my real name as my username.

If you download the game, the in about/credits section It says developed by Nick Shen (nshen) 14 years old.

Here is more proof: <http://cubegrinder.com/hacker-news-post-is-not-spam/>

This is not spam. And this is my first time on this wonderful site.

<comment><USER52> It is spam. This is a community site. You've made an account and within the first hour started promoting yourself without engaging in the community as a whole. The only reason you posted was to get hits. Ergo, spam.

Looking through your submissions the only submission you've had is for your game. The only thread you've participated in any discussion in is this one. You deliberately used your age as linkbait.

Try interacting with the community in a genuine way first before promoting yourself and I won't accuse you of spamming or being a spammer.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


I've decided to stop upvoting articles that have nothing to do with startups - <AUTHOR>

Basically, reddit already exists, and an appropriate selection of subreddits can produce a nice selection of articles and decent discussion. HN is arguably higher quality, for now, but I don't have another good source for startup-related items. (Suggestions welcome.)
Just my personal preference, others may disagree and vote differently. It's just that lately it seems I'm sifting through an awful lot of general-interest articles, many of which I've already seen on reddit.
The more HN becomes a source for non-startup news, the more users we'll get who don't care about startups. Since HN doesn't have "subreddits," we'll end up with just another general news aggregator, gradually decreasing in quality like they all do.
I know that I've contributed to this, and I've decided to stop. <comment> mkr-hn I've noticed two distinct groups on HN:

People like you, who come to HN for startup news

People like me, who come to HN for HN's take on news

The rift is causing more headaches for both sides as time goes on (and it's not going to go away on its own), so it's reasonable to split HN into two subsites: Hacker News and Startup News.

<comment><USER2> Us old-timers know Hacker News was originally called Startup News but got changed to Hacker News back in 07: <http://ycombinator.com/hackernews.html>

pg explains his reasoning pretty clearly there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Oddly, I agree with almost all of your comment, except the headline part about "startups". =]

I am also wary of all the general news creeping in (not least because I seem to find myself reading/participating in the discussions despite intentions). But the "good" content I come here for is from my perspective the technical articles, while I don't have a lot of interest in the startup-related stuff, except insofar as it sometimes also includes solid technical content.

I mean, in a sense I therefore _am_ interested in startups, since a lot of technical innovation comes from there. But more Woz and less Jobs would be my reading preference.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's actually what I mean. Technical content that I might possibly use in a startup definitely qualifies. I just had a hard time with the 80-character headline limit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Depending on how broad you use the term "startup", I might agree. The discussion about programming (and other technical) topics here is usually on a pretty high level, apart from the usual crowd jumping on every hyped bandwagon. Generally on a much, _much_ higher level than "pure" startup news – which most of the time are (bad) economics 101 or sheer self-help book territory.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right, what I mean is basically anything useful for people doing software- based startups. If it allows me to preserve the illusion that I'm being productive, I count it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's an idea, buy the domain and steal it!

Filter It (<http://fltr.it>)

Install the fltr.it browser extension and you will begin to see the site's you visit most frequently in a different, more relevant way through the fltr.it overlay heatmap. The content fltr.it thinks is most relevant to your interests is highlighted. Not only does fltr.it learn your interests as you browse the web, it learns the interests of other visitors to the same sites and if enough users on a particular site use fltr.it our algorithms will begin "clumping" like-minded users' filters to the site and you can hop from one site-specific filter to another on-the-fly. See Hacker News through the "startup" fltr, the "science" fltr or the "random" fltr or even combine fltrs.

fltr.it preserves the underlying social and cultural dynamics of each site's userbase while augmenting the site's ability to present the most relevant content to each user-type.

</comment><comment><USER6> It makes sense if the primary value one sees in HN is the articles, i.e. HN as high quality news aggregator.

If the primary value one sees is in the insight provided by the comments, it perhaps makes less sense, i.e. HN as a high quality discussion forum.

<comment><USER7> The lower quality the news that is aggregated, the lower quality the discussion that it attracts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> So should I not upvote this submission, because it's not about startups?

More seriously, I've taken to voting mostly for those things that are specific to the hacker/entrepreneur audience, and which I think contain valuable material. There are a few exceptions, but I apply the test: Should this be interesting to non-hackers/founders? If so, don't upvote, and consider flagging.

But it's too late. If only more people would take the pledge, but they won't. It's nearly time to move on - it's been an interesting two-and-a-bit years.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good test.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I think the content on HN has continued to follow the general guidelines set out here: <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html> which makes me think we're doing ok.

"If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."

</comment><comment><USER10> Amen to that. I've long since concluded that there must be some sort of spambot just flooding the site with posts from various blogs and news sources, even if they arent even tangentially related to HN

</comment><comment><USER11> Would segmenting HN like reddit work?

<comment><AUTHOR> I think it would. It works nicely on reddit. A new subreddit is basically a new community, starting the cycle over again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Amen.

Lately, I feel like the old curmudgeon yelling at kids to get off my lawn with moderations, edits, etc. Trying not to complain about it publicly just makes it even worse. I considered starting a thread to ask people to downvote more, which is something I _never_ used to do.

The catch, I think, is that even if you could clearly demarcate exactly where the line is for what HN actually stands for, how do you figure out who is on which side of that line? What _I_ think HN is isn't the same as probably anybody else, completely;

I also don't want this to become Reddit, or even general interest. While I'm loathe to reference a 'glory days' era, lest I insult those for whom the glory day was before I arrived, when I got to HN, it was decidedly more startup- focused. What wasn't startup-focused generally required significant thought.

Something else I haven't seen much of lately is a good-old fashioned Erlang- bomb.</comment>


Semantic-UI, the Web's Most Beautiful Front End Just Launched 2.0, It's Amazing - <AUTHOR> http://www.semantic-ui.com/ <comment> what-no-tests I used to use BootStrap, but now I've been using Semantic-UI.

As mostly a backend engineer I appreciate how well-documented, consistent and easy to use this package is.

I never find myself fighting the layout engine or scratching my head over confusing (or missing) documentation. The community is great and the maintainer/developer behind it is fantastic.

Give it a shot!

</comment><comment><USER2> I've used Semantic UI back in 0.x days on one project and I must say it was really pleasant experience, especially when compared to Bootstrap. Glad to see it still going on!

</comment><comment><USER3> Just started playing this. It's worth noting that nothing lower than IE10 is supported (due to flexbox and other things I suspect) and it's javascript dependent. That results in broken stuff for around 2% of traffic depending on the audience. Also missing are a date picker and range slider, which is a pity for a UI framework. Still, I'm liking it a lot.

</comment><comment><USER4> A very cool UI framework, I like it a lot, I do love the idea of semantic CSS classes, since all you layout-source-code is much more readable.

The design meets my needs and my taste and after some hard evaluation I started to work with it for an enterprise project. Great satisfaction.

</comment><comment><USER5> What's with the all the fake comments (sock puppets)?

vanitas,ariasworks,jevjescha1,larsbo,lucus_hansen,chimes (more have been added as I write this) all have only made 1 comment and it was on this post.

At least 4 accounts were recently created just to comment on this post.

</comment><comment><USER6> Am using Semantic-UI for a Concrete5 theme. I started the project using Bootstrap, but switched to Semantic-UI as soon as I discovered it. Good documentation, great community and hard-working and responsive project developer.

</comment><comment><USER7> I use this everyday and it is incredible! It is so much better documented and engineered than anything else that I have been able to find.

</comment><comment><USER8> A very large step forward

</comment><comment><USER9> Everyone should use this - the future is after semantic Ui!

</comment><comment><USER10> best ui framework with so much beautiful elements, behaviors and smart variations and solutions!

its like bootstrap in very very cool ;-)

</comment><comment><USER11> semantic ui 2.0 is awesome. Its consistence and monolithic make website look good. Thank you so much for author effort

</comment><comment><USER12> Fresh and beautiful, I like it.

</comment><comment> ford-guo like the multi select very much :)</comment>


The easterner goes west in three early American comics - <AUTHOR> https://publicdomainreview.org/essay/comic-gold-the-easterner-goes-west-in-three-early-american-comics <comment><USER2> That 1849 image [1] depicting a man riding a personal rocket-propelled vehicle through the air is pretty imaginative for its time.

[1] [https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/essays/comic- gold...](https://the-public-domain-review.imgix.net/essays/comic-gold-the- easterner-goes-west-in-three-early-american-comics/05072u-edit.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER3> Hey! Silicon Valley! See something when you look in this mirror?

</comment><comment><USER4> Having enjoyed visiting gold rush historic sites in California and the area around Sitka Alaska, I think these cartoons give a very different view.

In the Lincoln Museum in Springfield Illinois, there is an entire exhibit of political cartoons of the day. Really crass stuff, makes it seem like our modern society is almost civil.

</comment><comment><USER5> Well written and obviously well researched. I can't testify to the absolute truth of this article but it is certainly entertaining!

</comment><comment><USER6> No mention of the risk of malaria on the Panama route? Perhaps alligators were more dramatic and better suited to the graphic medium.

</comment><comment><USER7> Anyone remember the old Gold Rush game by Sierra?

<comment><USER8> I do! In classic Sierra style, that game was _impossible_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Those comics reminded me that without context even the English language can be inscrutable.</comment>


Why to Start a Startup in a Bad Economy (2008) - <AUTHOR> http://paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html <comment><USER2> For those new to a tough economy, here's my story from 2008:

I was laid off from the digital agency I worked at. I had been trying to find a new job for a while but no one was hiring at the income I needed to pay the mortgage on the house I just bought.

So, I started my own digital agency. I tried to think of ways to make their model better/faster/cheaper. Better: I would routinely measure the impact of my work. Faster: I would do it myself, no teams slowing things down. Cheaper: I'd charge half of what my old company was charging.

The business grew considerably despite the economic tough times. Everyone was looking for great work at cheap rates and I was willing to work long hours (8am - 3am for a few months to get off the ground).

As the economy improved I hired a team, raised my rates and worked reasonable hours again. After 5 years it was a successful enough venture that I was able to sell the business.

It's possible to make a great living in a bad economy, but you need some luck, some skill and a lot of hard work in my experience.

<comment><USER3> I would add a domain that is needed in bad economic times. Even better, one you can provide value other can't. then you are rather safe, I think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is easy to say when you have capital or access to capital. Having lived most of my life quite poor, I find it somewhat frustrating to hear things like this. When you can't afford food, rent, health insurance, etc, the last thing you're thinking about is dumping your life savings into a new business that has a 90% chance of failure.

<comment><USER5> The Airbnb founders both maxed out their credit cards, and famously kept the lights on by selling cereal at the 2008 Republican and Democratic conventions. I believe the actual idea for Airbnb spun out of them realizing it could help them pay their rent.

<comment><USER6> > and famously kept the lights on by selling cereal at the 2008 Republican and > Democratic conventions.

Sounds like a great exaggerated story.

> I believe the actual idea for Airbnb spun out of them realizing it could > help them pay their rent.

That may be, but the founders come from well to do families and I'm sure never worried about missing rent, getting evicted and being homeless.

There might be rags to riches stories out there. AirBnB ain't it. It's a riches to extreme riches story.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There is one word missing from this post that contains a whole lot of the argument on the environment side: _chaos_.

Those who learn to thrive in chaos are most dangerous out there, for they have this contrarian impulse to rise when there's blood in the streets. If you recall a history lesson or two, that's how the most egregious powers are made —in wealth or might or legacy.

Right now, some of us are down —the situation is draining, energy-wise— whereas others feel invigorated, a drive to take action, make a move.

How we respond to chaos thus creates a big divide among us in times of major perturbation. There's this shift of potentials in the system, and kinetics go crazy, and some flee/freeze (seek security, refuge, maintaining the status quo, conservatively preserve what's left, etc) while others feel compelled to fight (to defend, protect, help; but also attack, kick in the disruptive nuts, solve problem, seek victory). For those, it could be the perfect storm to attempt a moonshot — I find there's a really unusual proportion of such stories among famous successful figures in virtually all fields, but I wonder if it's not survivorship bias + myth building + my own filters.

<comment><USER8> When in doubt it's almost always cognitive biases at play.

I think a more reasonable assessment would indicate that people who are well resourced (either through financial, social, or skill capital) are more likely to feel invigorated and therefore will build on the resources they already have by taking advantage of the chaos.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you want try start a startup in a bad economy come to my country, Argentina, and you will have de full package. Sometimes I read comments or blog post about the risks or the "bad economy situation" in first-world countries and a little smile on my face appears. If you really want to test yourself come here.

<comment><USER10> if you think that's bad. go to my home country, Zimbabwe.

<comment><USER11> If you think that's bad, go to Aleppo Syria

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> > _What if you quit your job to start a startup that fails, and you can 't > find another? That could be a problem if you work in sales or marketing. In > those fields it can take months to find a new job in a bad economy. But > hackers seem to be more liquid. Good hackers can always get some kind of > job. It might not be your dream job, but you're not going to starve._

Probably true but I think I would prefer the safe bet over the risky one. Why would I pass up on a 100% chance to make 100k when someone is offering a 0.01% chance to make a few million?

If the job was remote, maybe my mind would change. But VCs are asking us to cram into cities with $4000 rent for reasons they can't explain.

And most startup interviews these days are theater.

<comment><USER13> "Why would I pass up on a 100% chance to make 100k when someone is offering a 0.01% chance to make a few million?"

You don't _have_ to start a startup. And if this is your attitude towards risk, you probably shouldn't.

<comment><USER14> I'd definitely take 100% * $100k = $100k over 0.01% * $10M = $1000, especially since money has diminishing returns to happiness. Now perhaps you think your odds are better than 1/10000 or that you'd make 10 billion instead of 10 million, but assuming the given odds and valuation, there's no way I'm going with the risky offer.

<comment><USER15> To first order, successful startup founders are the people who don't do these calculations. Any early stage software business has countless plausible reasons why it's likely to fail; if you're thinking about risk-benefit analysis beyond the basic sanity check of "will my life be ruined if this doesn't work", you're sapping energy you need to actually make it successful.

(I'm not saying this to look down on you! I'm absolutely the kind of person who does these calculations, and thus shouldn't found a startup, even if it sometimes sounds cool to me.)

<comment><USER16> I think founders do those same calculations, Since you can't be successful if you can't accurately judge risk, but I think the utility function is different in how founders value non-monetary rewards and the mission of the company etc, and I think founders might also see themselves as in positions to influence those payoff numbers to increase the probability of success or the venture or the payoff as t the end.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I think how true this is depends on how you're starting your business (specifically, how you're funding the startup).

I've personally had greater success with starting business when the economy is down than when it is up. As near as I can tell, it's because the field tends not to be as crowded. It's easier to get attention to your business when there are fewer startups competing for attention.

Since I've always avoided using investment money or loans to fund ventures anyway, a down market doesn't impact me as much as it does with many other approaches.

</comment><comment><USER18> Ok, no. This is a bad meme. Read the comments here and you can see why.

You know what startups came out of the 2008/2009 recession? A car sharing company. A rooms-for-lease company. Many, many different delivery companies and a sh*t-ton of gig economy jobs.

Do you know what they all have in common? Taking advantage of people's weak economic situation. That's the sort of company that comes out of bad economies. The ones that take advantage of people being in poor economic situations.

But starting something that matters? You have to do it when customers can actually buy your products. And that takes a GOOD economy.

I can't wait to see the slew of low-quality companies that come out of this next upcoming, inevitable recession

<comment><USER19> > Taking advantage of people's weak economic situation

Wouldn't it just be simple supply/demand? What about all those jobs the gig workers have access to, which otherwise wouldn't exist?

<comment><USER18> There's a difference between a job and work. There's been many studies about chronic underemployment and lack of benefit by gig economy workers which are in effect working at rates drastically lower than what would be expected if it was actual full time employment as a job.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> _Fortunately the way to make a startup recession-proof is to do exactly what you should do anyway: run it as cheaply as possible. For years I 've been telling founders that the surest route to success is to be the cockroaches of the corporate world. The immediate cause of death in a startup is always running out of money. So the cheaper your company is to operate, the harder it is to kill. And fortunately it has gotten very cheap to run a startup. A recession will if anything make it cheaper still.

If nuclear winter really is here, it may be safer to be a cockroach even than to keep your job. Customers may drop off individually if they can no longer afford you, but you're not going to lose them all at once; markets don't "reduce headcount."

What if you quit your job to start a startup that fails, and you can't find another? That could be a problem if you work in sales or marketing. In those fields it can take months to find a new job in a bad economy. But hackers seem to be more liquid. Good hackers can always get some kind of job. It might not be your dream job, but you're not going to starve.

Another advantage of bad times is that there's less competition. Technology trains leave the station at regular intervals. If everyone else is cowering in a corner, you may have a whole car to yourself.

You're an investor too. As a founder, you're buying stock with work: the reason Larry and Sergey are so rich is not so much that they've done work worth tens of billions of dollars, but that they were the first investors in Google. And like any investor you should buy when times are bad._

<comment><USER3> One of PGs most influential essays, at least for me. If anything, the emergence of cloud services made start-ups even cheaper since 2008.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I get what he's saying, but the majority of the richest people in history were born ~20 years before the early American Industrial/Steel boom or ~20 years before the internet was popularized. Macro is important from a population level perspective.

</comment><comment><USER22> Can I pay my rent in startup ideas?

<comment><USER23> Ideas are worthless.

<comment><USER17> Ideas are both a dime a dozen and invaluable. That is, ideas are easy to come up with by the bushel, but you can't have a business without one.

Unimplemented ideas are worthless, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm working on ideas for a new startup and this is a very different economy than three weeks ago. The Dow is down 24% in that time. Overall, I think my chances are better.

Raising that friends and family round might be tougher, since some people are feeling less rich than they did. Others will be looking for a hedge.

I'm targeting B2B SaaS, and there's certainly going to be some purse string tightening. But I imagine there will still be room for low-cost tools with a 10x ROÍ, which is the surest way to be successful, anyway.

The biggest advantage I have going is flexibility. Right now I can turn on a dime, which a public company, or even a Series B, can't really do.

</comment><comment><USER25> A timely reminder (was that really only 12 years ago?).

But (maybe a big but), recessions are not all created equal. Seems the unknowns are a lot different this time around.

</comment><comment><USER26> Brilliant post that inspired me to do this research when I was at ReadWrite:

[https://readwrite.com/2009/04/30/what-do-vcs-say-and-do- in-e...](https://readwrite.com/2009/04/30/what-do-vcs-say-and-do-in-early- stage-today/)

</comment><comment><USER27> Exactly what I needed - thanks PG. Didn't really know what to make of the current situation.

Another gem that always gets me going: [http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/vb.html)

</comment><comment><USER28> Sweat equity increases in value as the amount of money being invested in startups diminishes

</comment><comment><USER29> If you don't want to start a startup, just invest in one.

One that is derisked and not yet IPO.

But usually only accredited investors can do that. Another way that the Federal government helps the rich get richer.

PS: The JOBS act changed that with Rule 506b but you have to convince startups to use it

<comment><USER30> > If you don't want to start a startup, just invest in one.

In a recession, there may be a lot of people with talent, a lot of time, but little to no money. Investment is a game for the rich in the first place, which is why most people don't care about rules involving accredited investors.

<comment><USER29> So invent your own currency (use Ethereum or intercoin.org) and pay w that.

Slicing Pie is a good book for this

But not everyone will agree to work for it, for others you will need cold hard cash. And stock investors are all around, I am talking to them, they want to take $ out of the stock market and put it in SOMETHING.</comment></comment></comment>


Rolling your own Pre-Launch Page for free - <AUTHOR> http://spking.com/2011/08/30/roll-your-own-pre-launch-page/

<comment><USER2> I'm going to repeat here what I said in <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2939044>

I'm getting really, really tired of pages that promise a service and then say "Sign up and we'll let you know when it's ready!"

I know it's a technique for trying to validate an idea before you spend time, money and effort implementing it, but my reaction now is "Screw you!"

I've signed up several times and never once has it come to anything. I've spent time filling in boxes, clicking through pages, being promised the solution to a problem, and nothing has come of it.

My reaction now is "Fuck off and come back when you've done something."

Just a data point for the next time you consider wasting the time of everyone who might otherwise consider being a customer, instead of using yours to actually build something.

</comment><comment>==

ADDED IN EDIT: Apologies that you've got in the way of one of my rants about one of my pet hates. Thank you for your calm and considered replies. I do wish you good fortune. And remember, fortune favors the lucky.

<comment><AUTHOR> This isn't a service, it's just a how-to blog post showing how to build a pre- launch page without paying for anything. You can download all of the files here: <http://launching.me/download/launchingme.zip>. Sorry for the confusion, I guess I didn't make it clear enough it's not a new service.

<comment><USER2> No, I know that, I get it. This is a service that gives people the ability to create these pages I hate so much.

I'm sure many people who are slaving away to try to produce a service will love that they can produce these "teasers that waste time and have no content but harvest your email" pages.

I'm sure that this will be considered a valuable asset to help potential startups save time.

I just wanted to point out that in some quarters these sorts of pages create real animosity and may have a net negative effect.

Feeling my age today.

</rant>

<comment><AUTHOR> Colin, sorry I misunderstood and that you've been burned by so many would-be MVP test pages. Hopefully my little tutorial is used for projects that actually get released ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Don't forget unbounce.com, they have an awesome, extremely customizable service.</comment>


Dear Tumblr, fix your damn RSS feed - <AUTHOR> http://otaviocc.tumblr.com/post/25393140706/dear-tumblr-fix-your-damn-rss-feed

<comment><USER2> Marco.org actually isn't on Tumblr anymore--he uses Second Crack, a blogging engine he wrote himself. Read more here: <http://www.marco.org/secondcrack>

<comment><AUTHOR> Your absolutely right! I totally missed this switch and was blaming Tumblr for this problem. I'll update the post on my blog! Thanks wvanwazer!</comment></comment>


Pitfalls of AI/ML, VR, and Biotechnology - <AUTHOR> https://email@example.com/a-note-of-consideration-to-all-developers-9a21aee588e1 <comment><USER2> > ...but imagine a deep learning model that decides who to put into prison...

If this is what our criminal justice system has come to, we have a lot more to worry about than just AI.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is a robocop so difficult to imagine?</comment></comment>


Apps Are Booming as Companies Seek a Place on Your Phone - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/08/technology/start-ups/08phone.html

<comment><USER2> This just doesn't sound like NYT.</comment>


2016 Retina MacBook Pro Caveats - <AUTHOR> https://www.lvh.io/posts/2016-rmbp-caveats.html <comment><USER2> We bought a 15" 2016 Macbook Pro ("Retina" is redundant; there are no 2016 MBPs that lack a Retina display.) We also bought a LG 27UD88-W monitor to go with it. (It's one of the few that has a USB-C input.)

I have to say, I'm really impressed by the single-cable solution. The monitor charges the laptop (57W maximum, which is less than the Apple charger, but "good enough"), and the laptop sends both video and USB peripheral connections to the monitor, which acts as a USB 3.0 hub.

One cable. It's kind of amazing and magical if you think about it.

There are some rough edges, though:

(1) Sometimes the computer reports that it's not charging. Sometimes it does. We don't know why just yet. We can always connect the Apple-supplied charger though.

(2) When the display goes to sleep, it disconnects all the devices on the hub. This is a problem for external disks, as the OS complains that it has been detached without being ejected first. I hope LG fixes this in a future firmware version.

(3) We can't use the Apple-supplied USB charging cable to connect the laptop to the display. The connectors are the same, but.. it just doesn't work. As a technical person, I understand why; but it's going to be unnecessarily confusing to people if two cables that look alike don't act alike. This is going to raise technical support costs greatly until all USB-C cables are capable of all transports and functions and the old ones are phased out. Why Apple didn't ship a fully-capable cable in the box is puzzling to me.

<comment><USER3> Why doesn't the Apple-supplied USB charging cable work?

<comment><USER4> It's for charging only. This seems to be a huge disadvantage to USB-c... you have to buy different cables for different purposes, even though they have the same physical connector.

Can you imagine if AC power had the same plug for both 110V and 220V? And you just had to "guess" which one was the right one?

<comment><USER5> They do? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320)

That's a common problem with power supplies that require setting a hard switch to choose between 110V and 220V.

<comment><USER6> Which is why it's rare at best to encounter such power supplies in new manufacture, and has been for quite some years now. Instead, they sense the line voltage and configure themselves accordingly.

It's hard to see the profusion of semi- and incompatibilities permissible in the USB-C connector as anything but a regression.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I just got back from returning my 15" 2.6 i7 with Radeon 450. First time I've returned an Apple product ever. The build quality of the machine is superb. TouchID, display, keyboard and SSD are fantastic. There's something going on with the GPU's... I'm putting my money on the Intel HD but the framerate is extremely slow. Just scrolling a simple web page in Safari stutters considerably. I tried using gfxCardStatus to just use the Radeon with the same results. My 2013 MBP feels considerably faster. The trackpad misses clicks just often enough to be frustrating. The touch bar is annoying. I don't get it. Moving my fingers up to tap a button takes more effort than simply doing the same function from the trackpad. Not being able to have a volume down button in the control strip makes reducing the volume more time consuming. I actually like the new keyboard but the clicks are very loud... annoyingly so. Very jarring. It's really too bad since it's a well built machine. The form factor is perfect. I think software updates will fix a lot of these issues but all at once it's counter productive for me. I'll probably wait till a rev 2 model and update to a 2015 model for now. It's too bad you can't get a non touchbar model with the faster CPU's as well. If you're on the fence I'd wait a few months at least or grab a 2015 model.

<comment><USER8> Excellent, concise review. Thank you. There are so many compromises with this machine, I am going to skip this generation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Not supporting DisplayPort with an adapter is just insane. Apple's new top-end laptop is incompatible with the most common way to connect external monitors?

I've been willing to give Apple and the new MBP the benefit of the doubt on this stuff, and in particular I don't mind that it needs dongles now if that means we get universal USB-C adoption faster. But the dongles need to actually exist and work now!

<comment><USER10> My understanding is that it's specifically the thunderbolt-2 adapter that doesn't support further adapting to other alternate mode mechanisms. This might be because of incompatibilities between TB2 and TB3/USB3.1 alternate mode implementations?

It doesn't mean it can't do DP over a specific type-c to DP cable/dongle, which presumably are or will be a thing (eg: [https://store.google.com/product/usb_type_c_to_displayport_c...](https://store.google.com/product/usb_type_c_to_displayport_cable)). The author appears to want to wait for docks that do both DP and power delivery, if I understand correctly.

<comment><USER11> There are USB-C to DisplayPort cables. You need some sort of converting cable anyway--the old MBP had Mini DisplayPort and I've never seen a monitor with a MiniDP input.

<comment><AUTHOR> (Author here) The Dell P2515Q I have has both DisplayPort and mDP2 in and out (for chaining).

<comment><USER12> Do the new MacBook pros support display port chaining now?

<comment><USER13> Older Macbook Pros also supported chining, but not the OS. It's working under Windows.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If you're used to the Mac's "force app to quit" Command-Option-Esc shortcut, it won't work from the touchbar if the app is unresponsive:

[https://twitter.com/technosucks/status/800831482608484352](https://twitter.com/technosucks/status/800831482608484352)

"You might not be able to use the Esc button in the Touch Bar if the app you're using becomes unresponsive." [https://support.apple.com/en- ca/HT207358](https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT207358)

Fortunately you can still force the Mac to shut down with the Touch ID button after it locks up.

<comment><USER15> "If you need to use Esc to force an app to close, you can switch to another app and try Option-Command-Escape. You can also choose Apple menu > Force Quit." [https://support.apple.com/en- ca/HT207358](https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT207358)

<comment><USER16> Heh, that makes me think about Finder that is always open. What if Finder is the only app you have open, and it hangs?

<comment><USER17> Cmd+space (spotlight) -> calculator (or whatever) and then force-quit finder :p

<comment><USER18> It'd be nice if Apple had an app simply called Force Quit :)

<comment><USER19> Click the apple in the top left corner -> Force Quit.

<comment><USER18> Sometimes this simply doesn't work - it's bizarre but the apple menu is actually part of the App that's running it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> A few other problems I came across:

1\. Battery life is much lower than specified: [http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/battery-life- for-13-and-...](http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/battery-life- for-13-and-15-macbook-pro.2015074/)

2\. Some users report graphic card problems: [http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pool-do-you-have- graphic...](http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pool-do-you-have-graphic-card- issue-on-new-2016-15.2016743/)

Here is how it looks like: [http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/graphic-card- freaks-out-...](http://forums.macrumors.com/threads/graphic-card-freaks-out- with-brand-new-mbp-2016.2015545/)

3\. TouchBar graphics sometimes display on the screen instead of on the TouchBar: [https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5eap94/someones_touc...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5eap94/someones_touchbar_just_moved_to_the_screen_and/)

<comment><USER14> The 2015 13" Pro has a 74.9-watt-hour battery.

The 2016 13" non-Touch Bar Pro has a 54.5-watt-hour battery.

The 2016 13" Touch Bar Pro has a 49.2-watt-hour-battery!

The components in the 2016 models are more power efficient. But at some point you'll run into physics.

Apple may claim the battery life is the same as before when watching a movie (probably entirely HW accelerator offloaded by now), but if you're compiling code all day I wouldn't expect the new laptop to match the previous battery life based on the raw numbers alone.

<comment><USER21> Don't be too sure; total power consumption of the new Skylake CPUs is much lower, as is power use by the display, etc.

<comment><USER14> It really isn't. Base configuration 13" MBP specs:

2015: 2.7GHz dual-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 3.1GHz, with 3MB shared L3 cache: 28 W TDP [0]

2016 (Touch Bar): 2.9GHz dual-core Intel Core i5, Turbo Boost up to 3.3GHz, with 4MB shared L3 cache: 28 W TDP [1]

Both chips use the same 14nm process, and there's no free lunch. The "refined" 14nm process for the Skylake chip is put towards a tiny frequency bump.

[0] [http://ark.intel.com/products/84985/Intel- Core-i5-5257U-Proc...](http://ark.intel.com/products/84985/Intel- Core-i5-5257U-Processor-3M-Cache-up-to-3_10-GHz)

[1] [http://ark.intel.com/products/91166/Intel- Core-i5-6267U-Proc...](http://ark.intel.com/products/91166/Intel- Core-i5-6267U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_30-GHz)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> The best thing I've seen so far is reports of the touchbar getting stuck on the screen:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5eap94/someones_touc...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5eap94/someones_touchbar_just_moved_to_the_screen_and/)

</comment><comment><USER23> While, over time, a lot of today's annoyances with the new Macabook's will fade away, the lack of ESC key is a deal breaker for me.

I tried it at the Apple Store and it's pretty much unusable. (It had the seen issue as the writer, apparently relying on the physical click to know whether or not I had pressed it. In addition, I also mistyped it a lot. Maybe hack to replace the whole touch bar as one single ESC key will do it...)

I've been told to remap the ESC to CAPS LOCK to vim usage, but I seem to be one of a rare breed who uses the latter the way it was intended to be, so that's a no go for me.

<comment><USER24> The escape key is still there, it's on the Touch Bar, I have no issues with using it, and I haven't had to re-map it. Also you can hit the 'fn' key and the 'Function' bar and escape key will appear while using any other 'app' that changes the Touch Bar.

<comment><USER25> The prime issue is lack of tactile feedback. I wrote quite a bit about this in a previous comment, in that we "touch type" because we get feedback from our fingers. Implementing a "keyboard" interface that requires a change of visual focus is not a good UI practice.

<comment><USER26> In your comment 25 days ago, you stated that the problem is the layout of the Touch Bar changes regularly, therefore you need to look at it. But this doesn't make sense for the Esc key, because the Esc key is always in the same place on the Touch Bar (and is always available while you're typing).

<comment><USER25> To me there are a couple problems. One is the changing layout as I mentioned and the fact you have to shift focus constantly because you can't feel where things are (esp since they change from app to app). Then secondly the lack of feedback. I wouldn't mind the touch-bar so much if it hadn't replaced keys that some people use constantly. As an add on above the keyboard, sure... while I wouldn't be crazy about it it could be handy for some people. But half the comments talk about how you can re-map keys to work around it... and that to me spells UI downgrade. A fair percentage of people are perceiving this as enough of a loss in functionality they are finding work arounds.

<comment><USER26> I'm willing to bet that most people complaining about it and talking about remapping it haven't actually used the Touch Bar yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I really appreciated the no nonsense, non-editorialized description of his experiences. Given the recent political climate, it is a nice change of pace.

The external monitor and wifi issues seem egregious, could these be OS related issues?

<comment><USER4> From what I've heard, many USB3 interfaces have been causing Wifi and Bluetooth reception problems for a few years now. This is due to electromagnetic interference in the 2.4ghz. spectrum.

I wouldn't expect a high-end Apple product to have this issue though; this is the type of problem you expect from cheap beige box PCs.

<comment><USER28> How about using Wi-Fi in 5 GHz channel ? Should solve the issue, shouldn't it ?

<comment><USER4> You're right, it should solve the issue, however, there are a couple things at play:

1\. If you have a newer wifi AP that supports 5ghz, it might allow you to create a separate SSID for 5ghz, which is great, because now you can specify which network you want to connect to, and can choose the 5ghz. band to avoid this interference. Some routers don't let you specify, and use the same SSID for both bands, which means you can't really tell what you're connecting to.

2\. Unfortunately, 5ghz. has a shorter range, so it will be less reliable in large houses, or where coverage is weak.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> "Most dongles don't work" was what killed it for me, after reading several reports that it was really hard to hook up anything reliably to the USB-C ports given the churn in the dongle market I decided to skip this generation and go for the next rev.

<comment><USER30> >> after reading several reports

We HN users are fortunate to be "in the know" about these issues, because we keep up with this information.

Can you imagine how the out of the box experience would feel like for less- informed early buyers of the new MBP who find out about these issues post purchase?

I get the impression it's going to hurt the "everything just works" reputation that Macs have had for the longest time.

<comment><USER19> "Several" isn't really a reliable number. I know of three people with new MBPs, and none of them are experiencing any of these issues.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> The problems with the new macbook "pro" seem to keep on growing. I am really surprised that Apple did not find the connecting to external display issue in internal testing.

<comment><USER32> I'm somewhat surprised by the whole touch bar thing, other manufacturers (e.g. Lenovo on the X1) tried it before and use acceptance was miserable.

<comment><USER33> I picked up a new MBP and I have to say I do like the Touch Bar. It's certainly not a must-have, but Apple's implementation is pretty polished. My favorite use is music/volume control. I can control music from both iTunes and a buried YouTube Safari tab at the same time through the Touch Bar.

<comment><USER34> How is that different from pressing Fn + F keys before?

<comment><USER35> Not sure why you were downvoted. Actually it works with Fn + F, too.

<comment><USER36> Can you control two separate volume dials with the normal function keys?

<comment><USER35> same as touch bar, if you switch the window they have the functionality of the new window. (actually depends if the software supports it, else it will use the old window)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I still can't believe Magsafe is gone. I swear I save a Mac every month via Magsafe and worry about when I have to upgrade in a few years. They better release a clean version of this by then.

<comment><USER36> I've actually had a problem with Magsafe. When I'm using my laptop on my lap, my leg pushes up on the adapter, which causes it to disconnect very easily. But I can lift my 13" 2015 rMBP right off the table by pulling straight out on the adapter. Seriously, if you're careful enough the Magsafe charger can support the entire weight of the laptop. Which means it's a great feature if I _step_ on the cable (which pulls it downward) but if I trip on it and pull it straight out, it will always, every single time, always pull my laptop right off the table.

Which makes it worse than worthless, remembering that when I use it on my lap it will constantly disconnect itself. I'm happy to see Magsafe go, I'm just not thrilled that it's not being replaced with something better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> The execution failures are just unacceptable for such an expensive product. The Surface Book was half baked at launch, but at least Microsoft has the excuse that Skylake was bleeding edge at that time. Apple is dealing with a mature stack here.

</comment><comment><USER38> Right now is a great time to score a 2015 model. Doesn't make sense to buy a new MacBook Pro until a 32 GB option is available imho.

<comment><USER39> Before it was announced I was 100% sure going to grab a new MacBook Pro but now I find myself looking at refurbished 2015 models.

<comment><USER40> Why not the 2016 model without TouchBar?

<comment> r-s Does not come in 15 inch.

<comment><USER41> Sure it does: [http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MJLQ2L...](http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config)

<comment><USER42> If you look at the product code in the link (MJLQ2LL) and check it against the list of MacBook Pro models[0], you'll see that it's a 2015 model. There aren't any 15" 2016 models without a touch bar.

[0]: [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201300](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT201300)

<comment><USER41> I didn't realize that, thanks. Just ruined my Christmas gift to myself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Wi-fi going down when you plug in an external device is completely unacceptable.

<comment><USER44> This isn't anything new. It's a well established fact that USB 3.0 interferes with 2.4 Ghz Wi-Fi.

[http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2423604,00.asp](http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2423604,00.asp)

[https://www-ssl.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/universal-ser...](https://www- ssl.intel.com/content/www/us/en/io/universal-serial-bus/usb3-frequency- interference-paper.html)

<comment><USER45> The PC Mag link claims that this is alleviated on routers with shielded USB 3.0 ports while using shielded cables. Are the ports unshielded on the new Macbooks, or are the people reporting the issue using unshielded cables? Is Apple shipping these with unshielded cables?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Here is the interesting thing regarding Display Port: I am using an OWC Thunderbolt 2 Dock. I have my dock hooked up to using the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter.

I _am_ able to use my external 27" just fine. I have a DisplayPort cable plugged into the second Thunderbolt port on the dock. It's all working.

This is reminiscent of the way the Thunderbolt Display behaves: You cannot plug a DisplayPort monitor directly into the Thunderbolt Display, but you _can_ daisy-chain another Thunderbolt device to the Thunderbolt Display, and then plug a DisplayPort cable into the Thunderbolt device on the end of the chain, and then it works.

</comment><comment><USER47> The fact that I need a 3rd party adapter to connect my Apple branded monitor to my Apple branded laptop is patently ridiculous.

<comment><USER36> But I need an adapter to plug my Apple branded hockey puck mouse to my Apple branded laptop, too... we're talking two different hardware generations.

Likely the reason they discontinued the Apple monitors is because they wouldn't work with the new MacBook.

<comment><USER47> There's a big difference between breaking compatability with a $39 mouse vs a $1600 monitor that you could have bought a few months ago.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> This is sounding like the least appealing MacBook "Pro" ever made.

<comment><USER49> And the iPhone 7 is the least interesting iPhone upgrade ever IMO. I'm pretty disinterested in Apple right now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I'm sure you long-time mac users are a little disappointed with the current generation of macbook pros, but as a long time ubuntu-linux user, I feel that linux distro's have comprehensively fallen behind the times and am excited to be with everyone else and have a macbook pro. It's like when I had an android for a long time, and I actually thought androids were competitive, and then when I switched to an iPhone 6 it was an incredible difference, all things considered it was just a superior experience and phone. I had no idea that it was _that_ much better, and was unsure how people ever talked about androids vs iPhones like they were even, I'd had an android for 4 generations.

I'm assuming OSX vs linux distro's like ubuntu is the same thing. The sum of the little things must make you a lot more productive. I cant wait to be honest. I just need to decide, 13 inch vs 15.

When you do everything 1-off, like different phones than every one else, different clothes, different hobbies, don't listen to mainstream music even if it's fun you really get left behind in life & it's a lonely affair.

It was a nice change when one morning I woke up after a long time of running my life in a different direction than every one else that I got to hit traffic with every one else. "Oh, this is where every one is, thank god". I think it's a bad idea to do everything 1-off for some minor advantage in your head.

</comment><comment><USER51> Here are my caveats:

1\. The keyboard. Not the Touch Bar; the rest of the keyboard. There isn't much travel and I'm afraid it will aggravate my RSI. I've tried pressing the keys more gently, but sometimes I'm too gentle and miss keystrokes. Pressing the right side of the caps lock key is unreliable even when I press it fairly firmly. And the right shift key has gotten stuck once already. I'll give it some more time to see if things improve, but RSI is a deal-breaker. I'm considering returning the laptop.

2\. The battery life. It's nowhere near 10 hours when I'm doing development. I haven't been keeping close track but I'd say less than 5 and less than previous generations. I think they used a processor which is more efficient at idle and took away a lot of battery to make it thinner. It's maybe not more efficient when working, so the battery life is reduced if you use the processor more heavily than they've anticipated.

3\. The Touch Bar. I'm sure I can make it work, but I would prefer to have a physical escape key for vim, especially given that the caps lock key is questionable too so that may be out as a substitute.

4\. That going from 1 TiB of storage to 2 TiB of storage would cost another $800, and the SSD is not even replaceable later. I don't want to spend that much, so I have 1 TiB that I'm already close to with photos likely to push it over. I really wouldn't mind having a 512 MiB SSD and a 2 TiB hard drive, but that's not an option. It wouldn't be as much of a problem if Apple Photos (or some other inexpensive product) had good support for auto-selecting part of the library to have on the SSD as a cache of full storage on a network/external/cloud drive. (I.e., one library that I could open up and add stuff to while disconnected, view some recent / starred / non-hidden photos while disconnected.)

5\. 16 GiB of RAM rather than 32 GiB and not expandable. I gather this lost a three-way battle with battery life and thickness/weight.

Most of these (#1, #2, #4, #5) are the negative consequences of Apple's anorexia.

Having only USB-C ports isn't a problem for me. Losing MagSafe makes me a little sad—it has saved laptops for me—but I like the idea of being able to plug in just one cable to do everything. Those docks don't actually exist yet, but they will soon. In the meantime, I have the included power adapter, a USB-C to DisplayPort cable, and a portable USB-C to three-port USB-A + gigabit Ethernet hub. It'll do.

<comment><USER26> #5 is Intel's fault. Apple going 32GiB would have a really hugely negative impact on battery life.

<comment><USER51> Yeah, it's unfortunate Intel chose not to support LPDDR4 in Skylake, but Apple still has some control here. If you want better battery life, put in a bigger battery. Or at least the same size as the previous generation...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> I'm using a mid-2014 rMBP now, and I love it - its a great machine, and I'm seriously content with it.

But for work reasons, I'm upgrading to a new 2016 rMBP, and I'm a little hesitant .. the reason is, I'm a vi user. So I figure I'll get used to the difference in tactile response from the current ESC key to the Touchbar experience .. eventually.

But what I've been thinking is that I'll just map CAPSLOCK to Escape, since I hardly ever use Caps for anything important. This sort of amuses me a little, since I've heard of folks doing this for years, when a real Escape key was available anyway .. but they did it for ergonomics reasons. So, I'm hoping I'll be able to live with that experience as a dedicated vi user.

What I'd like to know - for you guys who are vi users and have a 2016-rMBP in front of you - is whether you think this is viable, or just not worth the hassle - i.e., just use the Touchbar escape and see how it goes. What do you think?

</comment><comment><USER53> The lack of DisplayPort support is significant. This requires buying new monitors? Which monitors does the MBP support?

<comment><USER54> It supports DisplayPort but not with a Thunderbolt 2 adapter

<comment><USER53> Ok, so I'm confused. Why would you want to use DP with ThunderBolt 2? Is this only for 4k monitors?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thunderbolt normally supports multiple protocols over the same plug/cable. The Thunderbolt 2 port on my old MBP is where you plug in the monitor. Thunderbolt 2 matters, because that comes with DisplayPort 1.2 support, which is necessary for 4k@60Hz.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> It is starting to feel like the "Pro" is actually more of a consumer toy for gaming and messing with Facebook rather than a real professional machine.

I need to buy a new laptop today. For development, not to play games. The unix underpinning of MacOS always made their machines attractive, expensive, but attractive nonetheless.

I'll go visit the Apple store and see but it is starting to look like it'll be a waste of time. It looks like I'll make a detour over to Best Buy and get one of the high end HP laptops with 17 inch screen, full keyboard, lots of ports, etc.

I can then install VMWare Workstation with Ubuntu Desktop. Add another couple of VM with Ubuntu Server, run them all at once in a virtual network to simulate application and DB servers and develop on Linux.

Done deal. Probably half the money. With what's left over I can go buy that TIG welder I've been eyeballing.

<comment><USER56> Unless you absolutely need the laptop today, don't get something from BB. They're really not known for selling quality PC laptops. Go online and get something like an XPS or Thinkpad.

<comment><USER8> It depends on the laptop. I've seen Dell XPS-13 and XPS-15 on sale at BB. Both of which are excellent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> The first time I plugged in a hub with power and HDMI, I got a kernel panic and the MacBook's keyboard did not work after the first reboot. I was a bit scared.

<comment><USER58> Crap! Did it start working after the first time?

<comment><USER57> Yes, I had to reboot again and everything worked fine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> Some people have also reported hours less battery life than advertised.

<comment><USER33> There are also issues with palm rejection on the supersized trackpads.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5e094c/users_are_rep...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5e094c/users_are_reporting_trackpad_problems_on_their/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> I had a similar problem with failing WiFi on my mid-2010 MacBook Pro.

When I used a third-party MiniDisplayPort to DVI adapter, wireless would not work. When I used the Apple adapter, it worked fine.

Interestingly enough, I found that under some circumstances the 3rd-party adapter will work fine. My working theory is that it doesn't have as much shielding as the Apple adapter and puts out just enough interference to clobber my WiFi signal when I'm far enough away from the access point.

Maybe this is the same issue?

</comment><comment><USER61> I have a fully loaded 15" arriving on Monday. If I cannot connect it to my beloved Dell P2715Q at 4K@60hz, I'm sending it back. This is clownstickery at its finest.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hopefully I can save you some frustration. If you got the TB2 dongle, it won't work. Apple suggests you purchase a third party DisplayPort dongle. Make sure it's DisplayPort 1.2 (that's what lets you do 4k@60Hz). No advice on what to buy though; except check the reviews to make sure it works on the 2016 MBP! (_NOT_ the MacBook! Compatibility with the MacBook means nothing.)

<comment><USER61> Thanks. @sandipc above linked to this[1] monoprice cable, but it's out of stock with no ETA. :( I'll keep looking.

[1] [http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=12908](http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=12908)

<comment><USER62> This one should work as well: [https://store.google.com/product/usb_type_c_to_displayport_c...](https://store.google.com/product/usb_type_c_to_displayport_cable)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> Wifi problems on a MBP again? For fuck's sake... I'll probably make do with what I have for a bit longer or find a 2015 refurb.

Or go all bohemian and spin up linux on a chromebook.

<comment><USER64> They actually reverted back to 2x2 MIMO for the wifi cards. The previous generation 13" had 3x3 MIMO (antennas), now the new one has 2x2 MIMO. So less theoretical maximum speed.

<comment><USER65> Is there a benefit to reverting to 2x2?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> A big caveat I have is that the SSD is soldered directly to the logic board.

I've used a single Macbook for stretches of 4-5 years at points and I've had to pull out the HD when the logic board has died... seems really sad that I'd be tied to Apple's support in the event I need to access data to use on another machine when previously it was something I could solve in 15 minutes.

</comment><comment><USER67> I got my 15" MBP 2016 as one of the first as well. An important caveat when setting up your system is not to clone 10.12.1 from another system and expect no hiccups. I used an app called SuperDuper but this probably applies to CarbonCopyCloner as well. Essentially the image that is on the new Macs seems to have slightly custom drivers which did not make it into the 10.12.1 release.

Either use the official (and somewhat slow) Migration Assistant/Time Machine or after you clone your drive from the old machine, make sure to use Recovery Mode/Cmd-R and reinstall the operating system from the recovery partition. For me, though it took several hours to install, it quietly retained all my data and resolved all issues I had been seeing with stock macOS 10.12.1.

</comment><comment><USER68> Any serious developer worth his salt is not going to put up with the utter shit the new MB(P) are.

I know they're catering to "media" types but for any engineer who also happens to be a 10x and well rounded, doing art, music and other fields will feel constrained.

Apple has left the golden middle ground a long time ago and is going after the "media" types only. News flash: the margins in those youtubers-sectors are very low, hence the spending will dry sooner rather then later.

I've been using the MBP pro circa 2012 and upgrading/hacking the hardware.

It's aging gracefully and next laptop will be a non-mbp which can run MacOs through VM. Price parity allows much more horsepower and modularity.

New MBP, pretty but objectively silly.

<comment><USER69> _Apple has left the golden middle ground a long time ago and is going after the "media" types only. News flash: the margins in those youtubers-sectors are very low, hence the spending will dry sooner rather then later._

I don't think that this is a very good good laptop for media-youtuber types either. Just watch Casey Neistat's review of the new rMBP. He really wants to like it, but it's really clear from what he's saying that it's completely unsuited to his needs. In particular, the loss of the SD card slot is going to hurt anyone who uses pro camera equipment.

<comment><USER68> Haha.

Well color me surprised.

Now I really don't know which target market they're trying to aim for, cause where I'm standing it's a net miss, aside from the millennial generation which isn't a bread winning one for the most part.

Maybe I'm not seeing their big picture, but as far as I'm concerned, A net producer from technical to art, this machine is a fail.

<comment><USER69> I see no user's needs being a good subset of this machine's capabilities. It's just impractical.

I have a 2012 rMBP and I'm thinking of upgrading to a refurb 2015 rMBP. I'd like to upgrade to the last good generation of MBP; it might be a while before Apple decides to start making good laptops again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> I have noticed that window resizing is a bit laggy on this machine, especially in apps like iTunes. I wonder if that has to do with the decision to use Intel's HD graphics instead of the Iris Pro on the 15. The Radeon probably isn't going to get activated every time I need to resize a window with a few graphics on it.

Also, I hope Apple fixes the palm rejection on the giant trackpad soon. I wind up accidentally activating Siri quite a lot.

Otherwise, good machine.

</comment><comment><USER71> This is starting to sound like the Windows Vista of Macs. :(

</comment><comment><USER72> This is a bad time for Apple to screw up. PC laptops are finally catching up (HP Spectre, Dell XPS, Microsoft Surface, Razer Stealth, etc). Some are not only delivering good performance and build quality, but features that Apple doesn't even have (detachable Surface Book, 360 hinge, external GPUs). And at a much lower price point.

I love OSX, but no OS is worth that much.

</comment><comment><USER73> Ouch, does that mean my Thunderbolt display is of no use in the future? Any idea how to continue to use it?

<comment><USER74> If it's a Thunderbolt display, it'll work.

If it's a Mini DisplayPort display (which uses the exact same connector as Thunderbolt), then it won't work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> On a slightly unrelated note: aren't SSH keys meant to stay in the devices they are created, and you need to create new keys for new devices? Of course this is assuming that that SSH key was a private one.

</comment><comment><USER76> This is a short article/solution regarding the ESC key problem: [http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key](http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Avoid_the_escape_key)

</comment><comment><USER77> Never buy a first generation Apple product. I've personally learned that lesson.

</comment><comment><USER5> He has a brand new display (which in displays, is <5 years) and was going to connect it through a triple chain of dongles and adapters?

Display <> DisplayPort-to-mDP2 <> TB 3 to 2 <> USB-C to TB 3 <> MacBook

What is going on?

<comment><USER78> I've been a mac user for 12 years, have my current retina macbook for 4 years, consider myself a pro user and want to buy a new "mobile computer". I'm no longer considering buying an apple macbook. OS X is great but with these prices I can no longer validate it's value anymore and looking into buying an xps.

<comment><USER79> I would love to see Dell publish some XPS figures before and after the new MBP announcement. I see a lot of people say they're considering one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER80> I have 6 dongles with my new MBP. It takes more space in my bag than MBP.

</comment><comment><USER81> The signal-to-noise ratio on this thread is rapidly approaching zero. I read every comment and learned almost nothing.

</comment><comment><USER82> fyi Control-C = Esc in vim. So the new mac without real esc key just means leaning to do control-c vs. esc if u can't stand the virtual esc key.

<comment><USER57> <C-c> and <Esc> is not 100% the same because the former sends a signal and other details.

Because I like to use <C-c> too, I have just remapped it to <Esc> in all modes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> What a train-wreck.

</comment><comment><USER83> It just works...

</comment><comment><USER84> Jesus. My friends who use Apple computers always make fun of the "tech shit" that "dos users" like me have to deal with. And how Apple "just works". (Yeah, they say "Dos" when they mean "Linux". Because they think text on a screen equals DOS, the old terminal based OS by Microsoft).

And now I read this:

System Integrity Protection (SIP) was disabled ... csrutil status ... boot into the recovery mode... hold ⌘-R when booting ... open a terminal ...type csrutil enable and reboot ... DisplayPort-to-mDP2 cable to connect to the Thunderbolt 2 port ... get a Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 dongle ... Thunderbolt 2 means 4 PCI Express 2.0 lanes with DisplayPort 1.2 ... Change the monitor to MST mode ... recover via HDMI ... Apple Digital AV Adapter ... HDMI instead of mDP2 ... third-party DisplayPort adapter ...

And so on and so on. "Just works"?</comment>