Facebook hate-speech boycott had little effect on revenue - <AUTHOR> https://www.axios.com/facebook-hate-speech-boycott-had-little-effect-on-revenue-15984194-124e-41e0-821b-cc3a1b29e28d.html <comment><USER2> I really question what the real purpose of this "boycott" was during a pandemic.

I've worked in advertising for 12+ years. I can easily imagine a company (say, Pepsi), deciding to pause a campaign they were planning to do because they figure the public are not in the mood to see advertising like that. And having nothing in the pipeline to replace it.

So a "boycott" to the public is really just "we don't have much to say right now" in private.

Also, "we need to save a few dollars because our quarterly profits have gone down."

I don't think it was ever any "moral" boycott. It was just an excuse to cut ad spending for a few weeks and avoid being tone deaf during a BLM protest movement.

<comment><USER3> Throwaway account from an established HN person. I work with many of the top advertisers in the US. These are not simply PR positions that take advantage of lower marketing expenditures. Many of the top advertisers do not support Facebook's current advertising and content policies. Would you as a savvy marketer turn off your top 1 or 2 channel instead of lower performing channels? Facebook is typically in the top for both branding and performance media. Wouldn't the marketing teams save money and maintain healthy performance by shutting down other channels? Facebook has a closed marketplace that protects itself, and gives malevolent actors (certain advertisers) the power to manufacture misinformation at a global scale.

I have first-hand seen other channels soak up the FB funds during this time. It has been interesting to see the diversification into media that historically was not a major investment, because it under performed when compared to FB.

<comment><USER4> Is it the ad execs at company 1 & 2 calling the shots or is this a board level decision?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Could it be that the loudest and angriest twitter scolds actually represent ~0.0001% of the population and shouldn't be immediately kowtowed to by our academic, cultural, and business leaders?

<comment><USER6> Companies should be accountable to their customers, not activists.

<comment><USER7> Tell that to Microsoft who removed the santa hat from Visual Studio Code due to one user. Ironically the issue currently has 18 down-votes.

[https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268](https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/87268)

<comment><USER8> >The Santa Hat on vscode insiders and pushing of religion is very offensive to me, additionally xmas has cost millions of Jews their lives over the centuries, yet even if that was not the case, pushing religious symbols as part of a product update is completely unacceptable. Please remove it immediately and make it your top priority. To me this is almost equally offensive as a swastika.

That comment...it's really hard not to take that as a troll comment...

<comment><USER9> Poe's Law strikes again. It is scary to see how swiftly Microsoft acted here, it seems like malicious actors could easily weaponize this.

<comment><USER10> > it seems like malicious actors could easily weaponize this.

This is exactly what happened to the "OK" hand symbol, which people have lost jobs over: It was a 4chan prank. There were alternate suggestions for what a bunch of different common hand symbols could mean, and this was the only one that caught on mainstream.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> From my perspective tons of advertisers stopped spending in late Feb/March across multiple channels, not only Facebook. This was necessary for advertisers to re-evaluate how they would allocate their budget and change their messaging. Things are back in full force now.

I get the feeling that some companies were just posturing with the Facebook boycott, and planned on decreasing their ad spending regardless.

<comment><USER12> This is it. It was nothing but a PR explanation of an already planned budget cut.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Aren't Facebook ads essentially a perfect market (in the economic sense) if done properly? Even if someone drops out, there would be someone with a slightly lower bid just behind them.

<comment><USER14> That's a pretty interesting question.

I would have said no. But I can't think why.

Certainly Youtube and the other big monopolies behave like they are not a perfect market.

Every now and again you'll see an article saying it's not known if advertising on the Internet even works that well.

So the opinion is information around advertising is not really fluid enough, not sure in practice.

<comment><USER13> The bit on internet advertising not working that well is interesting given that all the startups I know can tell you (to the cent) what it costs to acquire a customer.

Perhaps that number provides a false sense of understanding and control and there is an information bias towards it over harder to analyze types of advertising such as radio, but it seems like the ROI for internet advertising would be the most clear.

<comment><USER15> My understanding is that the average of average costs to obtain a customer is relatively unchanged over the years. Even going back to well before the internet existed, the numbers are relatively equal.

So we have all these platform vacuuming up massive volumes of personal data so that companies and organizations can target individuals with surgical precision.... and it might not be any more effective on the aggregate than traditional advertising in the 60s.

[https://www.nber.org/papers/w20171.pdf](https://www.nber.org/papers/w20171.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Obviously.

Perhaps those companies in this 'boycott' did themselves a favour by saving money to get by the mounted losses due to the pandemic. Pausing advertising subscriptions to save some money rather than trying to pressurise Facebook to do a u-turn.

This stunt changes absolutely nothing.

<comment><USER17> Considering this, was the tech and other media coverage of the "boycott" fair or accurate? Really looks like it was agenda-driven activism itself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I never understood the appeal of decentralized social media platforms until now. How does it make sense for large centralized platforms to police their platform for every little thing that the current social environment finds unacceptable? People should be able to organize themselves into groups as they see fit and no unilateral decision should have final say in a global community's thoughts and discussions

</comment><comment><USER19> One month was always going to be too little. FB can ride it all out, and if I take a step back I wonder if they can be moved with financial attacks at all. I feel the greatest weaknesses they have, and which they can't defend against, are with reputation and MAUs.

<comment><USER20> The twitter mob can boycott Facebook all they want, for a month or a year, but the vast majority of people and businesses will go on using it because that makes no difference to them.

Boycotts are always limited in time and scope because if the product wasn't useful you wouldn't need to boycott it, you'd just ignore it in perpetuity. Like, I'm not "boycotting" natural fur clothing for the 20th year, I'm just not interested.

Facebook is useful to both people and businesses and will continue to be useful regardless of any boycotts. Maybe not to some tiny minority of people, but to everyone else.

There are tons of companies that survive with shitty business practices that have much weaker market position than Facebook.

<comment><USER19> Well I don't think FB is so fungible as a market participant that they can be excused via relative privation[1]. They have close proximity to the lives of a lot of people, and the content that appears on their pages plays a prominent role in society, or at least the FB userbase. To be sure, sometimes its role in society is a result of splash damage.

Facebook's grandeur is on display constantly, both in its expansive view of its business model competing against winking at someone on the bus, to the intransigence they express in resisting (if not refusing) any modification to their behavior. They're have toddler-mentality management, and it's a problem that the stock market rewards it.

You don't have power over the fur industry by yourself. The purpose of boycotts is to spread, they aren't a state of being, and in your terms they could be said to be _practice_ in ignoring something. "See? You can go without it."

People and businesses still have MySpace pages, Friendster accounts, and all the kinds of powerless internet presence about which people like to say Facebook is immune, but the future isn't written yet. It stands to reason that Facebook could be the Penny Saver of the future, a webboard for people with online social inertia (I know of webboards that continue beyond decades with much more traffic than a lot of Facebook groups) and a place where yes, your business needs to put up a page.

Facebook would love to be indispensible, and I wouldn't be surprised if they secretly _want_ regulation (on their own terms, of course) because historically that is one method businesses can use to permanently implant themselves in the social fabric. Global reach complicates this, but with the TikTok controversy in the US right now[2], the world may wake up to regional restrictions on business access to individual nations (don't call it a Great Firewall) and we might wake up one day to find Facebook banned in the EU (for example) for their data practices.

There are plenty of smaller social networks in the EU that don't have the problems FB does, and I don't think the users would miss anything more than being asked to friend a friend's friend that you met once (if at all). Everybody would know they have a month or three and in that time everybody sends everybody "I'm @abc123 on $somesite, and @xyz456 on $somesite2." Much easier than the old days of updating paper address books.

And that's the illusion: that there's anything to miss, that it'll be difficult to maintain contact with people. All of the people you know online will still be online somewhere, and you know what? Email still exists. Facebook isn't indispensible.

1\. [https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relativ...](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Relative- Privation)

2\. [https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and- tech/ne...](https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and- tech/news/tiktok-ban-us-trump-why-will-it-happen-remove-app-what- countries-a9618931.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This boycott generally is a signal to competitors that let's not compete at this time where our revenue may impact. The competitors can't have a meeting about it so this is how they signal each other. If the company competitors follow would mean you are both going maximize your profits e.g raise prices or not cut them via promotions. During the pandemic the sales of Pepsi and coke are already hurting due to commercial sales.

Ad spend for say 5-6 months from Each might be as big as 100-200 million at best.

</comment><comment><USER22> Look like Ben Thompson was right when he predicted the end outcome of this on Facebook's revenue [1]. He looked at the financials and noted that the real players on Facebook were the small companies looking to leverage the scale and automation of Facebook to pull customers away from the big players in ways that were never possible. He predicted that once the big players pulled out, automation would kick in, buying prices would be lowered, and spends by small players looking to take advantage of this would be more likely to go up. Fascinating to see how this has eventually played out.

[1] [https://stratechery.com/2020/apple-and- facebook/](https://stratechery.com/2020/apple-and-facebook/) (scroll down to "Facebook's Anti-Fragility" to read the relevant section

</comment><comment><USER23> _Facebook hate-speech boycott had little effect on revenue._

You'll notice the article does a good job at mentioning _related_ and _mitigating_ factors (such as "growth was higher the the expectations of some analysts" and "there was also a slowdown in ad revenue due to the pandemic"). But it offers no data whatsoever to directly support its central claim:

"The boycott had little effect on revenue".

Then again, this wasn't a "news article" in the regular sense. Consider the site that it was hosted on, and their overall business model.

</comment><comment><USER24> Expected since the uptick in ad money came from all the smid companies going full e-commerce as well as new categories such as masks.

</comment><comment><USER25> Good, twitter ethics are illiberal and should be taken seriously. The big problem with ideas are who the judge is and it always tilts towards tyranny.

</comment><comment><USER26> It takes two—advertisers and us using Facebook—in order for Facebook to make money. Advertisers are only on Facebook because we are on Facebook. Facebook won't change until people start leaving it.

That's why I'm leaving it on September 1. I created a special page on my website and a drip marketing campaign for my friends on Facebook: [https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/delete- facebook/](https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/delete-facebook/)

<comment><USER26> Why the downvotes?

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Facebook has our attention, they built their platform to scale rapidly and hold our attention effectively. Now, they are a massive force with 9 million advertisers. 9 MILLION advertisers, all vying for the attention platform they have built.

</comment><comment><USER28> I don't understand why none pushes for a justice process for taking out hate speech and bad speech.

Instead we are basically begging Facebook to be the one who makes this kind of judgement. Obviously, Facebook doesn't want to do that. Nobody wants to do that.

I'm not talking about obviously blatant cases. I'm talking about a high profile one like Trump tweeting something bad.

Even a senate/former lawyer like Elizabeth Warren doesn't ask for a due justice process. She is also screaming at Facebook to just take down Trump's posts.

I imagine, if what Trump posts is extremely bad and illegal, it won't be hard to prosecute him or get a court order to ban or take down his posts.

(Apology for inaccurate language usage. I'm not familiar with these legal terms. But I hope you get the main idea)

<comment><USER29> The problem is that the speech that these people want censored isn't illegal. We have a strong constitutional prohibition against censorship.

Many activists would prefer that we didn't have this prohibition, but they don't have the political clout to get it repealed --- rightly so, because despite everything that's happened, explicit censorship is very unpopular.

Because the activists can't get the state to censor the public, activists have used increasingly underhanded tactics to get tech companies to censor the public. They've been very successful so far, but there's a growing resistance to their antics.

<comment><USER30> One of the most successful PR strategies Facebook has used throughout this is to position it as a free speech issue and the boycott as calling on them to censor speech. It's been so successful that I've seen it repeated a number of times on HN.

To the extent that they can make the argument _free speech_ vs. _not free speech_ , of course they win hearts and minds, because as you say, censorship isn't very popular.

The problem is that by making this all about censorship, they can ignore any responsibility they for harm they create in other ways. For example, creating incentives for publishers to create divisive content for the sake of enraging people, or recommending people join white supremacy groups. As far as I can tell, it was these sorts of measures that the boycott organizers called for.

The cynicism of Facebook's PR "free speech" stance is especially annoying given their arbitrary and non-transparent block of Dreamwith a few weeks ago[2]

1\. [https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/facebook- employ...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/facebook-employee- leaks-show-they-feel-betrayed)

2\. [https://andrewducker.dreamwidth.org/3861716.html](https://andrewducker.dreamwidth.org/3861716.html)

<comment><USER31> > _create divisive content_

I'll quote a paragraph of [http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html)

> _We have such labels today, of course, quite a lot of them, from the all- > purpose "inappropriate" to the dreaded "divisive." In any period, it should > be easy to figure out what such labels are, simply by looking at what people > call ideas they disagree with besides untrue. When a politician says his > opponent is mistaken, that's a straightforward criticism, but when he > attacks a statement as "divisive" or "racially insensitive" instead of > arguing that it's false, we should start paying attention._

The most interesting part is that the content that was classified as "divisive" when that essay was wrote is not the same that is classified as "divisive" now.

<comment><USER30> Whatever you want to label it, surely I'm not the only one who has observed that the best way to get an article shared on social media is to amp up how controversial it is. Then people who agree share it to agree with it, and people who are enraged by it share it because they are enraged by it.

Whether you want to call this "divisive content" (which definition fits it pretty neatly, in spite of PG's good essay) or "scissor statements" or something else is up to you, but it's a real phenomenon.

<comment><USER31> I agree, but I prefer to call them "flamewar topics".

It is not only used in social media sites, it is also used be journalist in newspaper and TV. (Sometimes it is more evident is the sport section. Every time the national soccer team lose a match, there is a tempest in a teapot about each one of the decisions of the team manager and the players.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Does anyone here run ads on Facebook?

How does the performance of the ads compare to Facebook's competitors? (Snapchat, Google, Twitter, Pinterest, etc)</comment>


Angular 2 Rendering Architecture - <AUTHOR> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9FmT05Q6qpsjgvH1XvCm840yn2eWEg0PMskSQz7k4E/preview?sle=true#

<comment><USER2> I feel this needs to be said about most frameworks these days...by the time anyone agrees on anything, a new framework will come along and everyone will start praising it as the new holy grail.

I'm so glad I did not follow though with an Angular project about 2 years ago. It would have failed miserably and been difficult if not impossible to manage at this point.

<comment><USER3> What is your last point exactly? How a new version of Angular would have made your project fail so miserably?

Change is great, it makes awesome things happen. New frameworks are here to give you a choice, you don't have to use all of them. Angular2 will come with a lot of new features and Google said that they will keep working on Angular1 until most of the users switched, what's bad about that?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> it's basically React, let's be honest here. Not that React invented anything but that Angular 2 clearly wants to use the exact same system it didn't use at first place.

<comment><USER5> I like that you try to qualify it with "not that React invented it" while simultaneously using a condescending tone. Although props are in order for so effectively sounding condescending with only text.

That said, it's only "basically React" in the sense that they both use a Virtual Dom. The implementation is unlikely to be as similar and the syntax is very different.

Your analogy is flawed in the same way that calling Linux "basically BSD" (or vice versa) is wrong simply because they both use a Unix-like kernel.

<comment><USER4> Your analogy is off. BSD always had a Unix-like kernel. AngularJS 1.x doesn't have a virtual DOM. They chose a different architecture for AngularJS 2.x which means the previous architecture wasn't that good despite all the praise.

<comment><USER5> They didn't "choose" a different architecture. The Virtual DOM wasn't an option when Angular 1.x started development. Dirty checking was "The Way".

The previous architecture was excellent for its time. The initial release of Angular 1.x was 6 years ago. The praise was well-deserved because dirty checking was fast and efficient.

React came about 4 years later and used an architecture that no one else had ever used. It was faster and more efficient. Now frameworks are converging to the new faster and more efficient way.

It seems like you consider it a personal affront that Angular is changing with the times. You seem to forget that exchanging is what makes these frameworks great (CSSAnimationGroup is, in fact, a replica of ng-animate).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Here's a gist

[https://gist.github.com/bonf/f0064e2779d9c8bc9e6d](https://gist.github.com/bonf/f0064e2779d9c8bc9e6d)

</comment><comment><USER7> I don't really understand what's going on in this client-side Web app space, and I'd love it if someone could clarify it.

My probably mistaken impression is that Facebook did this with React, decided that even with this virtual DOM, Web apps just weren't worth doing except as a backup to "real" native apps, and abandoned it.

Then Google decided that Angular was the way to do Web apps, discovered they were doing it wrong and that Facebook's virtual DOM was the way to go, and abandoned Angular 1's approach for an approach tried and abandoned by Facebook.

Then Google moved on to Polymer and its HTML components approach, which might be fundamental to Angular 2 or might be a new approach that they intend to use with something other than Angular.

Again, I'm obviously confused about what's going on in this big players' next- gen client-side web app space. Could anyone clarify?

<comment><USER8> Your timelines are off.

What youre referring to is that the early FB IOS app essentially wrapped a webview in order to display its stream, but the webview performance at the time was atrocious and they quickly abandoned it for natively build components. More recently(2013), post Instagram acquisition, Facebook developed a virtual dom framework named react and its currently used in several places of their web app.

Similarly with Angular which was introduced ~5 years ago, they decided that for the new rewrite it makes sense to use a virtual-dom like technology at the render level. The change is evolutionary.

FWIW Polymer is an effort by a completely different team and at this point is independent of Angular.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Says: You're offline.

<comment><USER10> Seems to work sometimes; try again.</comment></comment>


Lbry.io – decentralized digital library - <AUTHOR> http://lbry.io <comment><USER2> Would love a quick explanation of what this is, especially after clicking through to "Learn More"[0]. I don't want to watch a video, I don't want to read an essay, even the FAQ[1] (which wasn't exactly prominently linked to) doesn't seem to have a "What is LBRY?" anywhere.

After a few minutes on this site, I still have no idea what this is. "Watch, read and play in a decentralized digital library controlled by the community." sounds intriguing, but... what does that _mean_? What exactly is a decentralised digital library? How can I watch, read, and play in it? How does the community control it?

[0] [https://lbry.io/learn](https://lbry.io/learn)

[1] [https://lbry.io/faq](https://lbry.io/faq)

<comment><USER3> It is tough to strike a balance between a good introduction for technical people and non-technical people.

[https://lbry.io/quickstart](https://lbry.io/quickstart) is good practical introduction.

[https://lbry.io/what](https://lbry.io/what) is a more theoretical introduction.

We've got a WIP new homepage (more of a wireframe) at [https://lbry.io/home2](https://lbry.io/home2) if you want to share any feedback!

<comment><USER2> Fair enough, I recognise that it's hard.

This article does a good job of introducing LBRY, btw: [https://bryanalexander.org/2017/03/19/what-is-lbry-and- what-...](https://bryanalexander.org/2017/03/19/what-is-lbry-and-what-does-it- mean-for-education/) (h/t @doctornemo).

I also saw it described as "A cross between Bitcoin and Napster", which was fairly illuminating. I'm sure you wouldn't consider it accurate, but as a starting point perhaps something like this would be useful to have?

At the very least, #1 on the FAQ should really be the answer to "What is LBRY?"

<comment><USER3> I re-ordered the FAQ, this was a great suggestion. Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I recall lbry.io being posted here before and there were concerns around the naming system, where anyone could take control of a particular name just by giving more money to it at any point.

There's an FAQ up ([https://lbry.io/faq/naming](https://lbry.io/faq/naming)) which addresses this concern, and I think the system that they have designed is fantastic. It seems fair, although I'd give a slightly longer time period for a "counter-bid" personally. I'd taking a look at the FAQ before you move away or comment because they answer a lot of different questions

<comment><USER5> My problem with all of this is I don't care about having the "best name". I want to make a new name, and then work increasing it's value.

This system seems like anyone who wants to make a name but not monitise it will lose. How much of the value of (picking the first things that come into my head) the names FSF, GPL, GCC and clang come from the organisations and products? I bet those names would be worth much more to someone willing to use adverts and spam.

And even if we raised enough money to keep the names out of the hands of spammers, all that's happening is that lbry gets to charge a tax to anyone who has a name that has got even slightly popular.

<comment><USER6> Isn't that addressed by this FAQ entry?

> _Rest assured, we're implementing permanent URLs that are always yours._

[https://lbry.io/faq/no-auction-options](https://lbry.io/faq/no-auction- options)

<comment><USER5> Yes, but they will just be randomly generated strings, that doesn't really sound appealing. Also they don't exist yet.

<comment><USER3> That FAQ article is old and I'm going to update it to point at [https://lbry.io/faq/naming](https://lbry.io/faq/naming). You can get names as short as:

lbry://name#a

Where #a can actually be that short.

If you want a name with no identifiers or filters at all, the voting system will continue to be used.

<comment><USER7> What are valid characters for an identifier? Can I have lbry://foo## for example?

<comment><USER3> It matches by claim id, which is a much longer hash, but the system will do partial matches. In the case of conflicting partial matches, the first claim (temporally) is resolved.

<comment><USER7> Edit: Ignore below...you already said earliest claim is preferred. I need to stop skimming. (or I missed a stealth edit?)

Ah, so everything after the # is random then. And if you choose to abbreviate, you are risking whatever the collision likelihood is, in 4 bit increments, assuming the hash is hex digits.

There doesn't appear to be a throttle on claims, so choosing to abbreviate with just one character could be risky? Or does your substring match prefer earliest claim?

<comment><USER3> Yes, substring matches prefer earlier claims.

<comment><USER5> So i can still quickly camp on all the single letter extensions to popular names?

<comment><USER7> Well, a-f and 0-9, and they are randomly assigned.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Am I the only one who looked at the page for 2 seconds, clicked learned more and then went back here again?

It's sad how "good looking" demo pages have turned me into a robot, ignoring everything that doesn't satisfy my preferences and therefore result in me missing out of a huge amount of valuable information.

<comment><USER9> Most of these "good looking" pages suck at getting their point across. I really have no idea what they're trying to optimize for. Curiosity maybe? Retention? These pages are trying to be advertisements when they should provide actual information.

∙ What is it (in one sentence)?

∙ What can I do with it?

∙ Where can I learn more about what you just described using meaningless buzzwords?

Edit: This page has more information, but no tl;dr either: [https://lbry.io/what](https://lbry.io/what)

<comment><USER10> Their essay has a tl;dr at the bottom, I didn't bother reading the actual essay. It was way too long, when all I wanted was the answers to the three questions you posed.

>TL;DR Digital art is one of the first goods to evolve beyond scarcity. This evolution is changing the way content is discovered, publicized, paid for and delivered. Heretofore, the lack of transparency and monetization mechanisms in peer-to-peer sharing networks has largely enabled piracy. By equipping a peer- to-peer protocol with a digital currency and transparent decentralized ledger, the LBRY protocol opens the door to a new era of digital content distribution making peer-to-peer content distribution suitable for major publishing houses, self-publishers and everyone in between.

If LBRY succeeds, we will enter a world that is even more creative, connected, and conservatory. We will waste less and we make more. We will create a world where a teenager in Kenya and a reality star in Los Angeles use the same tool to search the same network and have access to the same results -- a world where information, knowledge, and imagination know no borders.

<comment><USER11> Good description.

I think the problem with paying for content is not that it doesn't have a fancy protocol based off blockchain and its own coin.

It is that access to content is not straightforward and it is easier to pirate. What guarantee does Lbry offer that someone won't post a pirate copy of copyrighted content for free?

<comment><USER3> LBRY offers the same or better protections against infringement that HTTP does.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I poked around a bit and shared some notes here: [https://bryanalexander.org/2017/03/19/what-is-lbry-and- what-...](https://bryanalexander.org/2017/03/19/what-is-lbry-and-what-does-it- mean-for-education/) LBRY's Twitter team was also very responsive.

</comment><comment><USER13> Small tip: you can add a dark background to the header through CSS for those who don't have the image in cache. Right now, while loading it's white text over white background.

<comment><USER3> Great suggestion! Done.

[https://github.com/lbryio/lbry.io/commit/ab6a3fe538f5c55e1f3...](https://github.com/lbryio/lbry.io/commit/ab6a3fe538f5c55e1f3a7d3020659e868496392e)

If you're in our Slack, DM me a wallet address at @kauffj for a tip!

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm still going through the docs and all so this probably has been answered before :

How do you deal with takedown and dcma requests? I know ipfs for example has a blacklist for dcma requests.

I'm trying to understand what keeps someone from copying a video and sharing it for less or uploading a movie or TV series.

<comment><USER3> Similarly. We will maintain a similar list and official releases will respect this list.

This does not remove the blockchain entry, since this is impossible, but it would be irresponsible and illegal in most countries to continue to host content on this list.

Here's a legal memo the wonderful people at Cardozo drafted for us: [https://www.dropbox.com/s/70uezh44ct0244c/LBRY- SecondaryLiab...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/70uezh44ct0244c/LBRY- SecondaryLiabilityandIndecencyMemo.docx)

We've also spent an unfortunate amount of money on legal fees.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Some good discussion between kauffj (LBRY) and someone on steemit [1].

[1] [https://steemit.com/lbry/@hipster/stop-buying-lbry- credits](https://steemit.com/lbry/@hipster/stop-buying-lbry-credits)

</comment><comment><USER16> My favorite bit so far from the LBRY FAQ: "we're basically, fundamentally the same as a toaster"

</comment><comment><USER17> I believe most here recognize that something like this is needed (disrupting payment for content from "the little guys"), and I personally hope something like this will happen soon. Best of luck to the LBRY team making this happen; their "growth hacker" seems to be getting a lot of stuff on the HN front page this week! (That and/or LBRY is genuinely about to hit the big time...)

</comment><comment><USER18> I tried to access the developer program (from this ([https://lbry.io/quickstart](https://lbry.io/quickstart)) link on this ([https://lbry.io/get](https://lbry.io/get)) page) and got a blank page.

<comment><USER3> It's back, sorry about that!

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> It claims no censorship but what if someone starts using it to distribute content that I'd say almost everyone would deem offensive. Can content be removed?

Is there privacy built into the protocol? Can everyone see what I've downloaded & published?

What if someone uploads pirated works?

</comment><comment><USER20> I tried to add myself to the mailing list at [https://lbry.io/signup](https://lbry.io/signup) and got a 500 error.

<comment><USER3> It's back, sorry about that!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Was the video flashing for anyone else while playing? It would flash in bars of black every second or so. Watching it directly on YouTube "fixed" it.

</comment><comment><USER22> Looks cool! I'll give it a try.

Looks like you guys created your own blockchain for the service. Any reason why Ethereum wasn't used? Any limitations?

</comment><comment><USER23> Talked to some of the Lbry team members at Coindesk Construct in SF a few months back. You guys are awesome, keep up the good work!

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm eager to see how IPFS integrates the IPNS & IPLD layers and how it affects the open linked data context...

</comment><comment><USER25> Blockchain based?

<comment><USER26> Seems like it. [https://lbry.io/faq?category=mining](https://lbry.io/faq?category=mining)

<comment><USER27> Missing the most important question:

what proof-of-work algorithm does LBRY use?

<comment><USER27> Searching around for a while, I came across

[https://github.com/lbryio/lbrycrd- gpu/blob/master/algorithm/...](https://github.com/lbryio/lbrycrd- gpu/blob/master/algorithm/lbry.c)

which shows it to be Hashcash with some mishmash of existing hash functions (SHA256,SHA512,RIPEMD) cobbled together.

<comment><USER15> Would be nice if the site featured a diagram showing how the functions and inputs are composed into the output hash. If this is an original function, what is it about LBRY that necessitates this new function?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Is there anonymity in LBRY?

<comment><USER29> Good question. I'd like to know whether pseudonymous interactions are possible, and what protections are in place to prevent snooping on buyers and sellers and de-anonymization or de-pseudonymization of user accounts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Great job LBRY Team!

</comment><comment><USER31> > Subsequent attempts to engage sincerely were also met with derision, so I'm > not sure anything could have ever been done that wouldn't have been met > similarly.

Some people are like that, where if you respond to their snark, your response will be used against you to tarnish your reputation in the eyes of bystanders.

It is important to never let them get the moral high ground.

If someone says something like...

* "Your team is all white."

* "Your team is all male."

* "Your team is all American."

* "Your team is all able-bodied."

A better way to respond would be something like, "That's true. We're always looking for new talent and embrace diversity, just haven't had much luck yet. <hiring page URL here> if anyone's interested."

It addresses the problem, and contains an open invitation for people of diverse backgrounds to apply.

(All of this is assuming you're willing to work with people who aren't white, aren't male, aren't American, and/or aren't able-bodied, of course.)

<comment><USER32> This type of social control is so bizarre to me. Like, here's a literal script for you to read from if you'd like us to stop attacking you in the future.

<comment><USER31> > Like, here's a literal script for you to read from if you'd like us to stop > attacking you in the future.

Us?

I'm talking about them, in a third person sense, not a first person sense.

Them, in this case, is meant to refer to trollish individuals looking to cause trouble under the facade of caring about the plight of women, people of color, etc. but actually are just in it for their own emotions. The people who want to stir the pot, not make things better.

Rather than a script furnished in a list of demands from said subset of the populace, this is more of a suggestion to defuse conflicts in a way that doesn't let them win.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Company is a bit tone def when it was pointed out they have a all male team [https://twitter.com/LBRYio/status/843865332771164160](https://twitter.com/LBRYio/status/843865332771164160)

<comment><USER34> Why is it even worth pointing out there team has no women? The original "call out" tweet was very snarky.

There are 9 staff, not including a few advisors. So its probably the case that they all knew each other before the comapny existed. If there were no women in their lab, theres not much they can do about that.

What would the correct response be? "Sorry we didn't know any women when we started, we shouldnt have done anything until the right quota of women showed up."

Should they fire and replace 4 staff with women or just hire 9 women even though they might not have enough revenue to do so?

<comment><USER35> I agree with your general sentiment, but their response does sound a bit weird. It would have been fine with me if they had said "oh it's just by chance, plus most of us knew eachother from before we started". Saying "we have no female roles" and "oh we get paid less so we're all women" (wtf?) isn't handling the situation well.

<comment><USER3> It was a crass and tone-deaf attempt on our part to signal awareness.

Lesson learned. Subsequent attempts to engage sincerely were also met with derision, so I'm not sure anything could have ever been done that wouldn't have been met similarly.

<comment><USER36> Your attempt to respond sincerely was to say you don't have any women on staff because you don't have any executive assistants or office managers, which even a generous reader would call a sexist reason:

[https://mobile.twitter.com/LBRYio/status/844194654656626688](https://mobile.twitter.com/LBRYio/status/844194654656626688)

<comment><USER37> yeah... clearly they haven't learned :/

<comment><USER35> To be fair, I think that was even before my reply.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to hook people on CS through Magic - <AUTHOR> http://www.pyladies.com/blog/computer-science-outreach-magic/ <comment><USER2> Is it just me? Framing something like this as a brainteaser (which is fundamentally what "magic tricks" are) makes it less interesting to me. Show me a problem which can be solved by applying parity or similar robustness principles and then it starts becoming appealing.</comment>


Inaccurate Images of Colonial America Made by European Printmakers - <AUTHOR> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inaccurate-images-america-delighted-18th-century-europe-180969992/?no-ist <comment><USER2> It's interesting that this article is about 18th century printmakers reusing content and the article itself is just a reprint of an article that appeared originally in the William Clements Library blog. Times have not changed all that much!

[https://theclementslibrary.blogspot.com/2018/08/copycats- clo...](https://theclementslibrary.blogspot.com/2018/08/copycats-closer-look- at-vues-doptique.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> In other words, fake _vues_ ;)

<comment><USER4> I would have left the voting buttons alone, but the use of the French kicked it over into "well played" territory.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Please fix typo: s/Innacurate/Inaccurate/

<comment><USER6> Fixed. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> was it only me who was expecting more of a gallery type site showing an image and describing it in english?</comment>


Offshore Wind Power Is Becoming Incredibly Cheap - <AUTHOR> https://edgylabs.com/2016/11/14/offshore-wind-power-incredibly-cheap <comment> rm_-rf_slash Couldn't the risks of emergency maintenance be mitigated by insurance and built into the cost to the consumer?</comment>


Ask HN: Where are reliable page perfomance tools? - <AUTHOR>

We are going through a process to analyze our website for speed and reliability.  We don't know what we don't know.  Any suggestions? <comment><USER2> Tools.pingdom.com is top of the heap. Great for seeing what is slowing down your page loads.</comment>


Verizon Media launches OneSearch, a privacy-focused search engine - <AUTHOR> https://venturebeat.com/2020/01/14/verizon-media-launches-onesearch-a-privacy-focused-search-engine/ <comment><USER2> If you're interested in privacy why would you use this over DDG?

Verizon has a terrible track record on privacy and there's no discussion in this article on where they get their search data from (do they run an index/bot?).

They're going to no doubt shove this down people's throats via bloatware on devices/defaults, but outside of that I cannot see anyone volunteering to use this.

</comment><comment><USER3> Have try [https://altsearch.org](https://altsearch.org) An ethical alternative search. No Privacy Tracking | No Ads | Non-Profit

</comment><comment><USER4> I read through the OneSearch Privacy Policy a few more times than I'd like to admit. Actually, I was inspired enough to take pencil to paper to illustrate the participants, what sensitive information flowed between them, when, and where. One potential exposure quickly jumped out at me as I ran through the flow of data surrounding an advertisement. Will OneSearch be able to deliver a winning advertiser's content (image, javascript, Wasm, iframe, whatever) without granting the advertiser any additional user information or session information (such as IP address, browser plugins, user agent, search terms, etc)? If so, how is this accomplished?

I believe that Verizon Media is being honest (at least from a literal perspective) in their OneSearch Privacy Policy, but I don't think that they're going out of their way to point out any known residual risks. It seems like the winning bidder (for advertisements placed on search result pages) ends up with a very healthy chunk of identifying information, and also what search terms you are currently using. Am I missing something with this one?

PS (and DDG too): The OneSearch Privacy Policy details some of the privacy implications _in selecting_ an advertisement which matches your search results, but once an advertisement has been selected, it falls silent on any privacy concerns with actually _delivering and displaying that advertisement to you_. I think that's where they've got some exposure with browser-based access. Worth noting, this same issue might also be in play on DuckDuckGo. (I haven't looked into it.) If someone has publicly examined aspect of DDG in any depth, I'd appreciate a link to the article. If not, this seems like a very worthwhile security issue for someone to follow-up on.

Disclosure: These are my _personal thoughts_ and they do not reflect an _indirect commercial relationship_ that I have with OneSearch. I have no "insider" or unpublished information that is significant to this topic. Like most people, I too was unaware that OneSearch even existed before reading the article.

</comment><comment><USER5> Doing a search for canihazip shows IP: 184.108.40.206 in the blurb. Which is the same as bing.

I'll guess it's a similar deal to duckduckgo where much of the crawling is outsourced to bing.

<comment><USER4> Cut-and-paste from the bottom of the OneSearch website: Powered by Bing™

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Is this the same people as that terrible oath consent-wall?

</comment><comment><USER7> I already have my [https://yacy.net](https://yacy.net).

</comment><comment><USER8> i already have my duckduckgo

</comment><comment><USER9> Having been inundated by Quantcast (Verizon Media) GDPR banners for the last two weeks. I am very very very skeptical.</comment>


Tarsnap logo contest - <AUTHOR> http://mail.tarsnap.com/tarsnap-users/msg00678.html <comment><USER2> I think you would end up with a better logo if you just did a call to your mailing list for designer recommendations, and paid a real designer $500 for a few hours of their work to come up with their best effort.

By opening a contest, you're not only going to get a much lower quality of submissions, but in the end, the final decision is going to be made by you, someone "useless at anything artistic".

Paying a designer $500 won't get you a full brand identity makeover, but that's not what you're going for. You should be able to find a talented designer who will spend an hour discussing what you want to get our of your logo, some time going over a number of their own ideas, and then wrap up the project and give you the sizes you need and a vector file if you ever need to scale your logo up or down.

<comment><AUTHOR> _in the end, the final decision is going to be made by you, someone "useless at anything artistic"._

That's a fair point... but I do know what Tarsnap is, and it's not exactly "typical". I don't know how many non-tarsnap-using designers would come up with something which is consistent with the rest of the "tarsnap brand".

<comment><USER2> Well, part of the $500 would presumably be talking through the goals of the project, what message you want to convey with the logo, how you might want to extend the Tarsnap brand in the future, etc.

To put it another way, if you needed to roll out a new feature for Tarsnap but couldn't do it yourself, would you hire someone on contract, or do a contest for it?

<comment><USER3> He just wants something cool looking and memorable for the FreeBSD sponsors page and for his website. This is part of the problem with paying for designers (something I've done a bunch of times, to varying effect) --- they want to have a conversation about your brand and the message of the logo. No doubt there are productive conversations like that to be had with good designers --- but not in $500 logo projects.

<comment><USER4> To pay someone $500 and then not want to spend an hour with them making them understand your product/idea/whatever seems like a bit of a waste of money to me, likely making the results hit and miss.

Or have I misunderstood and you're saying that for $500 finding a designer than can hold that conversation is unlikely?

<comment><USER3> I think he will have a hard time getting a qualified designer to take a $500 project seriously. I have no doubt he can get _something_ for $500, but it won't be something he likes.

<comment><USER5> You are right if you focus solely on designers from countries with a high cost of living. I'm pretty sure the friend who did my little shop's logo(you can see it at [http://rightfold.io](http://rightfold.io)) could make something that Colin likes for less than 500$.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've said it before and I'm saying it again: It needs to be a parsnip.

That's what springs to mind when you hear the name of your company, so that's what you need for a logo.

Here are a few options:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=parsnip](https://www.google.com/search?q=parsnip)

<comment><USER3> I think a parsnip would also be an _awesome_ logo.

Before you discount it, remember that Sourcefire has a goofy looking cartoon pig.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, but snout is a great concept for something that involves sniffing. Parsnip on the other hand just goes well with pancetta.

<comment><USER8> _Tarsnap: for secure recipe storage._

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "Design contest" to a designer is what "prototype me my facebook idea" to a programmer. You will be laughed out of the room by professional designers at best, so what you will end up with a clipart logo based on a ripped concept done by someone who has zero idea of what tarsnap is (but who _really_ needs your 500 bucks).

Do the right thing, Colin, call this thing off, take an hour to go through logopond and dribbble and email a dozen of guys you like. $500 is a good budget to get a good logo.

EDIT - alternatively, just pick a good sans font (something that you personally like and that matches well what you think tarsnap is about - simplicity, clarity, reliability, etc.), take a semibold or bold weight, type "tarsnip" in lowercase letters, kern it tightly and you got yourself a clean and concise wordmark.

<comment><USER9> And yet I bet he will get results and they will look good enough, even if you and everyone else who considers themselves a designer laughs at him.

He can actually judge the logos he gets and choose the best one (or potentially non at all). Designs don't have anything close to a monopoly on good(enough) taste.

Evaluating the quality of a code base, on the other hand, requires close to enough skill that you probably could write it your self. It's not analogous.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> [http://www.one-tab.com/web/images/tarsnap.png](http://www.one- tab.com/web/images/tarsnap.png)

A castle and medieval font to convey security and resilience

Use of a font with a distinctive R to help it appear as TAR-SNAP and not TARS- NAP

A monospaced font with underscores to convey that this for the UNIX command line

Subtle gold/silver colors that convey a history of widely acknowledged value and future longevity

Font: [http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/metamorphous](http://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/metamorphous) (free) Castle: [http://3docean.net/item/door- castle/4004680](http://3docean.net/item/door-castle/4004680) ($32 licence required)

Please feel free to use/build on this concept if you like it, I waive my rights to this logo design.

<comment><USER11> Not bad. I think that castle is somewhat busy for a logo.

<comment><USER12> Maybe just the silhouette would work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> [http://i.imgur.com/UP5d3gH.png](http://i.imgur.com/UP5d3gH.png)

edit: [http://imgur.com/k6elBCU](http://imgur.com/k6elBCU) with masthead

Not a professional designer but I like mucking around in inkscape and it was a fun way to avoid work.

<comment><USER14> Oh Gosh, that was all done in Inkspace? Pretty impressive, I'll have to check that program out.

<comment><USER13> Yep entirely in inkcsape.

It's a fantastic program even to a developer type like me, it also has _really really_ good PDF import which is useful sometimes :).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> A good way to make sure that the designer gets the full fee (without losing a commission to 99designs or by them participating in a design contest with no guarantee of getting paid) is to choose one designer and offer them the $500.

Does the interest in design contests stem from a fear of paying and getting something you might not like? Or not knowing what you might like until you see it?

<comment><AUTHOR> I have no idea what I might like. I'm hoping to get some discussion and sharing of ideas -- including from people who don't have any interest in or ability to actually produce a logo themselves.

If I knew that, say, I wanted a graphic of a piece of tar being snapped in half, I'd look for an artist and say "here's $500, please draw this for me". But given that I have no idea what I want, I figure the more people I invite to provide ideas the better.

<comment><USER16> _But given that I have no idea what I want, I figure the more people I invite to provide ideas the better._

You can just do what Steve Jobs did with Next: pick a designer you like, and leave it entirely up to him.

Ironically not because Jobs didn't have ideas on what he wanted but because the designer insisted:

 _" I asked him if he would come up with a few options, and he said, 'No, I will solve your problem for you and you will pay me. You don't have to use the solution. If you want options go talk to other people.'"_

[http://www.logodesignlove.com/next-logo-paul- rand](http://www.logodesignlove.com/next-logo-paul-rand)

<comment><USER3> That worked because Jobs could contract Paul Rand. Colin has $500 to spend.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> By using a contest format and only offering $500 to the winner, you're significantly limiting the talent pool of designers. Designers who are good-- and know that they are--probably wouldn't design a logo for a guaranteed $500, much less for an effectively random chance of payment.

Maybe you don't really care if it's a very good logo, or if you're collaborating with a professional who can walk you through the process of discovering what you want. (You do want something, trust me--you just won't know it for sure until you start rejecting the things you don't want.) And that's fine--it's your choice. If your business is doing fine without an awesome logo or a slick brand, then good job!

But if you really do want something professional, something that can be built out into a bigger brand, and something that someone put a lot of thought into, then this is the wrong way to go.

I wouldn't hold a contest for $500 for a developer to write a piece of code for me. Why would I do it for a logo?

</comment><comment><USER18> Here is the idea I submitted, uses Deja Vu monospace for the font. The shape is a bolt, and I am trying to go for the idea of industrial strength and security.

[http://dev.bitmono.com/tarsnap/tarsnap.png](http://dev.bitmono.com/tarsnap/tarsnap.png)

<comment><USER19> This one is my favorite so far :) Very sleek. But I wish it distinguished "tar" and "snap" to give a subtle cue as to pronunciation. What if the "tar" part were set in a slightly heavier weight?

<comment><USER18> Thanks and an interesting idea, I can see where you're coming from. I have tried it with a bolder font on the tar, it does hint more as to how to pronounce it.

[http://dev.bitmono.com/tarsnap/tarsnap- variation.png](http://dev.bitmono.com/tarsnap/tarsnap-variation.png)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> On the topic of brand, I always read "tarsnap" as "tarsnip" \- like a parsnip.

I think I get the name (unix `tar` plus a snapshot or securely locked in). It's not lack of familiarity - I've known about it for years, and even have an account.

I doubt you're keen on a name change, but "tarlock" would avoid this.

Or... a parsnip as a logo.

 _EDIT_ how bizarre! The instant I commented this, jasonkester made the same suggestion. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6462378](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6462378)

</comment><comment><USER21> I've wrote about this a few times on HN before. You guys like to downvote me every time I do but here we go again ...

Good designers, the ones you want if this is important to you, don't do contests. We have families to feed and bills to pay. "Winning" a popularity contest, not based on substance but instead on style, doesn't allow us to support ourself and our families doing our work. So, who are the designers doing these contests? Well, besides the large number of completely untrained laypeople, it's mostly students wanting beer money and portfolio pieces. And lets face it, most designers need many years beyond school before they're anything approaching "good" at their craft. Those years are spent doing grunt work with increasing amounts of responsibility under senior designers, art directors, creative directors, whatever.

My second point about that is how rare it is to win a contest. Designers know that they're often designing blind here. They could spend all the time in the world creating the perfect brand and the client could choose something else because they don't like the color blue or they're scared of clown logos or whatever. Point is, the client is often hardly objective in these situations and the designers know this. What does this mean in practicality? They are going to put as little effort as possible in to this because the chances of reward are small. Personally, I'd love to see the average amount of time spent on these logo entries. I bet most of them are well under 10 minutes.

Legal issues. I'll skim here because I don't have my links handy but most of these contest websites have been caught with stolen logos in their submissions. Companies have been sued for using these logos from contest websites costing them thousands of dollars they didn't expect. It happens and when the "designer" is some anonymous guy across the world, you have no recourse but to pay the fees, lawyer fees and then pay to do your logo all over again. Not to mention the embarrassment to your company when this happens. This stuff is very, very rare for clients working with designers face-to-face.

Lastly, when you're missing the face-to-face collaboration between designer and client, you're also missing most of what makes design "design", instead of art. The research as well as most of the creative process tends to go missing. The designer starts to view the client as the ones to design for instead of the "user" and as a result, the logo/brand/whatever becomes less effective. And you know what? A lot of important questions go missing ... like what are your plans for the future? What is your strategy to deal with your competitors? Even simple things like "am I making the logo for the company, the product or both" ... changes in company strategy are rarely mentioned in logo contests and this could be the most important question in the world. Logos need to be adaptable to company strategy and that strategy needs to be talking out between company and designer. Often NDAs are signed beforehand, good luck doing that with on a contest.

<comment><AUTHOR> _Good designers, the ones you want if this is important to you, don 't do contests._

I'm not looking for a good designer. I'm looking for a hacker (ideally a unix hacker) who happens to have some design skills.

<comment><USER22> Then you should've not offered the $ reward. This motivates wrong kind of people and sure as hell it does _not_ do much to motivate a "hacker with some design skills".

<comment><USER23> Who gives a flying fuck?

If someone was going to make a free Tarsnap logo, they're unlikely to be _deterred_ by the possibility of a small reward for it.

The only downside to the "wrong kind of people" entering is more entries to look through. Who cares what kind of person they are if the logo's good?

<comment><USER22> There are people who _really_ need those $500 (think - 3rd world countries where this is a luxurious sum on money) and who will enter because they are desperate. Then he makes a face, flips a finger and says it wasn't good enough. Does it not stink to you even one bit?

Of course contestants realize that they aren't likely to win, but if he's doing the right thing by setting up a mud wrestling match? I personally think he's not, so I do give a fuck.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Did a sketch of an idea here:

[https://github.com/neilk/tarsnap- logo/blob/master/tarsnap.pn...](https://github.com/neilk/tarsnap- logo/blob/master/tarsnap.png)

I wanted to get away from castles and locks and such. You can check out the README if you want to know what my thought process was, but it should be distinctive and appealing without an explanation.

<comment><USER25> I quite like it.

Note that the font is not free. From the fine print: Use by more than 25 Users, or equivalent Website Visitors, is a breach of this Free Licence Agreement, and instead requires a commercial licence.

<comment><USER24> Thanks.

About the license - you are correct. I was under the impression this font was already distributed via Google Fonts, but I was wrong.

It's a very nice font, and just costs $67.00. But it could also be swapped for a font with a less restrictive license.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Glad to see Tarsnap investing in branding/identity.

I like how Colin adopted prgmr.com style of appealing to the technical minded for it's website design/documentation. A simple logo wouldn't hurt.

<comment><AUTHOR> _A simple logo wouldn 't hurt._

I'm certainly not opposed to having a simple logo. I want to see what people come up with. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> How about:

Tarsnap: a guard dog for your backup data

An then your logo is the very stylized face of a bulldog, looking straight on. The word tarsnap is set to the right of the dog face for the full logo. You can use the face by itself for the favicon etc.

I think the word 'snap' has a lot of dog connotation to me. A dog snapping at your heals. The dog snapping at the mailman. And a guard dog is a pretty good metaphor for your product. It keeps things safe and protected from the bad guys.

Also, to have a 'mascot' like logo fits in with the penguins, devils, ponies, etc. You can make it stylized to project a "serious, reliable" image, rather than cartoon like.

If you like my suggestion, take the $500, and hire my favorite designer, tywilkins.com. You get a much better result than me trying my hand. The problem with a $500 budget is you don't have a the time to explore a lot of options. At $100/hour, you just have 5 hours. But that might be enough time to draw an already fleshed out idea.

</comment><comment><USER28> How about snapping fingers?

Something like: [http://mobiusband.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2008/06/finger...](http://mobiusband.com/blog/wp- content/uploads/2008/06/finger_snap.jpg)

But less detailed and with something that indicates noise emanating from the fingers.

Sorry for being too lazy to take a stab at implementing the idea.

</comment><comment><USER29> Choose one of these:

[http://codepoints.net/mathematical_operators](http://codepoints.net/mathematical_operators)

I suggest ⊷ "Image of".

[http://codepoints.net/U+22B7](http://codepoints.net/U+22B7)

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting idea! I think "multiset union: might be the most appropriate: [http://codepoints.net/U+228E](http://codepoints.net/U+228E)

<comment><USER30> true, but the "image of" gives ideas of "two entities related by a link".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> My version of the logo: [http://imgur.com/Laxvw7E](http://imgur.com/Laxvw7E)

The logo is the wheel on a cassette, which is a fun throwback to the tape days, inspired by TAR -> Tape ARchiver.

</comment><comment><USER32> Considering Tarsnap doesn't have a GUI I'd suggest a text-only logo - something like Tarsnap_ for a full logo and then just T_ for social media icons/favicon/128x128.

I can put something together but at the end of the day it's just changing fonts until there's a winner.

Colin, if you're interested in the idea and there's a particular font/color you would like used let me know and I'll make the pngs for you. Don't stress about payment, it's quick and easy for me to do.

<comment><USER33> my thoughts exactly. In my very non-artistic, unimportant opinion, the last thing tarsnap needs is yet another logo with a padlock / key / chain / castle / fortress / shield / guard / dog.

These security-related icons are so frequently (ab)used that I'm getting a strong urge not to use any product that relies on them to symboloze its security.

<comment><AUTHOR> _the last thing tarsnap needs is yet another logo with a padlock / key / chain / castle / fortress / shield / guard / dog._

I'm inclined to agree... I'm not saying it's impossible to produce a good logo with one of these, but I'd need to see something really inspiring to put up with a cliche.

<comment><USER3> How about heraldry + block mode diagram?

We did CBC mode in "tattoo flash" style.

(I'm seriously considering another take on block mode diagrams for a tattoo).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I suppose tarsnap is named like 'portsnap', which you also wrote, but what is the thought process behind calling _that_ 'portsnap'? That might help stimulate some ideas and suggestions.

I am assuming it's not a piece of tar snapped in half. Although sometimes, having the FreeBSD ports system compile perl and python from scratch when I am trying to install emacs does make me want to snap it in half (yes, yes, I know I am not the model FreeBSD user, et cetera :))

<comment><AUTHOR> portsnap = SNAPshots of the FreeBSD PORTs tree

tarsnap = TAR backups, in a SNAPshotted model (vs. incremental backups). I also liked the fact that it reminded FreeBSD users of portsnap, which is a very popular tool.

<comment><USER35> I understood the name immediately, but always considered it an awful name for most "normal" users. But, maybe UNIX culture will win in the end and "tar" will become a word everyone knows.

<comment><AUTHOR> Tarsnap users almost always already know what tar is. The fact that tarsnap has a tar command line -- i.e., one they already know -- is a big deal for a lot of tarsnap users.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Nothing on tarsnap.com will load for me in Luakit (WebKit) on Arch Linux. Has anybody else had this problem?

<comment><AUTHOR> This is the first I've heard of any problems... please let me know if you figure out what's breaking for you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Slightly off topic, but is there a way to have tarsnap back up to my own server instead of S3?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, the tarsnap client needs the tarsnap server.

<comment> X-Istence Will you ever make the tarsnap server available?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Here's my proposal, very simplistic and based on the inconsolata font (which is licensed under an Open Font license). Original artwork is SVG. [http://imgur.com/SVOZTC6](http://imgur.com/SVOZTC6)

<comment><USER39> Interesting, but there's a big hole between the r and the s (tar (...) snap).

<comment><USER38> Thanks - will move them a bit closer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I'm normally against the idea of spec work, but I think it makes sense for an open source project. People contribute code, sometimes even copy and graphics to open source projects, so what's the problem with crowd-sourcing a logo?

</comment><comment><USER41> here's a sketch of a small idea that came to my mind: [http://i.imgur.com/ZaIR5yD.png](http://i.imgur.com/ZaIR5yD.png)

... basic idea was: "box" \- not very original, but imho appropriate when thinking of storing things. as illustrated on the right, the form is the intersection of the shapes on the three visible faces of the box. the two in the front make up the "T" and on top is a very minimal "S". i thought of this intersection as a simple visual analogy of encryption.

wouldn't consider this a final logo - probably there could be done some more work on the details.

</comment><comment><USER42> I have used tarsnap for a while now and id be willing to bet this hacker news post will get him more business than a well designed logo. Have you seen the site? It looks like ass. Didnt stop me from trying it great service btw.

</comment><comment><USER43> Have a look at [http://logo.designcrowd.com/](http://logo.designcrowd.com/) for logo design crowding, my company did it and is very happy with the result. Don't cost much.

</comment><comment><USER44> Beastie leaning an elbow on a treasure chest, looking cool, as though it were a bar. Cool like he's taken down marauding hordes with his bare hands so keeping you away from that box isn't even a thing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Can't do it -- beastie is trademarked, and Kirk only licenses it for BSD things.

<comment><USER44> Then a turtle or a sloth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> my take, a bit simple: [http://imgur.com/JBnLjgL](http://imgur.com/JBnLjgL)

Font is consolas

</comment><comment><USER46> An asterisk encased in amber.

</comment><comment><USER47> Design a logo contests are tacky. It reveals a lack of understanding of your own brand and it's bad marketing. Go out and hire a professional graphic designer.</comment>


My Electric Bike Is Not 'Cheating.' It Could Replace Cars for Millions of People - <AUTHOR> https://longreads.com/2017/05/19/my-electric-bike-is-not-cheating/ <comment><USER4> I'm glad the author likes hers, and it enables her to commute.

I don't care who rides what on a street. What I do care about is people riding them on small narrow paths made for cycling at best speeds, at 24-28 mph. As someone who raced for 10+ years and still rides 120ish miles a week, I don't even ride that fast around bike paths. It's just too dangerous with joggers, strollers, kids on bikes, whatever. When I see e-bikes zip past, I don't get jealous... I get pissed off. I can drop into my small cogs and ride that fast too - I just don't because it's dangerous.

And on trails, I'm sorry - I hold the stance that you can just go find a motocross trail. Mountain bikers put too much effort for too many years into getting what few trails we have built, and inexperienced people on motorcycles do nothing for keeping those trails.

So, if you want it to replace your car, then great, have it. Whether you just want to be eco-minded or got yourself a DUI - I don't care, have fun. But stop trying to use it in places we've fought to get for bicycles.

edit: gender.

<comment><USER5> The author is not necessarily a 'he'.

> ...I was wearing a skirt...

> posted by Pam Mandel

<comment><USER6> Do you seriously not have better things to do than police comment section for silly typos?

<comment><USER7> Well gender is part of someone's identity, so it's important to get it right. If you misgendered a person in real life, it might make them feel insecure about their looks and features and hurt their self-esteem. (a man might for example wonder if he is acting feminine) It's also more important on the internet and communities like this one which are commonly stereotyped as a boys club where male is the default and females are unicorns. (Also since pedantry is the current topic, allow me to point out that a typo refers to an unintentional error while transcribing, not spelling mistakes or using the wrong term, which while mistaken, are done consciously)

<comment><USER8> There isn't any picture of the author in the article, so how would it make them feel insecure about their looks?

<comment><USER7> I was speaking in general terms. And there is a thumbnail.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've never lived anywhere near where I worked or studied - absolutely not within push-bike riding distance. So I used to ride a motorcycle. However, after several near misses with oblivious car drivers I decided I didn't want to die.

Riding a push-bike is great for your fitness, but it's not feasible if you have a long distance to travel every day. That can be assisted by public transport, but that means you need reasonable public transport - <USER2> drenched in sweat, trying to squeeze a push-bike onto a completely packed peak-time train service isn't fun for anyone.

Motorcycles (and scooters) actually make a lot of sense, they are extremely efficient as a personal mode of transport, quick and great for travelling most distances. In many places around the world (particularly certain Asian countries) motorcycles are hugely common. I wish that were the case in western countries and that people actually took motorcycle rider safety seriously. The stigma is really "do it at your own risk", which is down-right ridiculous given I never sped, lane-split or did anything even remotely dangerous on my motorcycle. If I was going to die it was at the hands of someone else, someone whose thought-process never considered motorcycles as a legitimate means of transport, never expected them on the road, and frankly never looked out for them.

It's a shame, driving around a large 5 seat vehicle for 1 person is an enormous waste in most cases.

<comment><USER10> Thanks for mentioning the stigma around motorcycles and scooters in the U.S. They are seen as grown up toys, yet all over the world motorcycles serve as a primary means of transportation for millions of people. Careless drivers obviously aren't targeting motorcycles, but I think there's a collective lack of mindfulness to their presence on the road.

Anecdotally, I became a better car driver after just a few weeks of simply learning to ride a motorcycle on public roads.

<comment><USER11> What did you learn from riding a motorcycle?

<comment><USER12> I'm not OP but I do ride and experienced the same.

If you're taking it seriously and respect the danger, you learn how to drive as if you are invisible. You learn to pay attention to and anticipate the movements of other drivers, to look at their wheels and not their eyes. Eyes lie, wheels do not.

You learn just how careless a shocking majority of people are behind the wheel of a two ton vehicle. You peek into every window for the glimpse of a hand reaching for a turn signal stalk, and all too often see a horrifying lack of attention paid to the road and a surplus of attention paid to a phone, eating, putting makeup on, putting contact lenses in, and smoking pot.

You learn to never hang out in a bind spot. Never!

You avoid situations where a car turning left in front of you (USA) has poor visibility. Usually due to a left turn lane and tight conditions. This exact scenario is responsible for a large percentage of moto accidents and anecdotally I have had two close calls myself, and I'm a highly cautious rider.

You avoid positions on the road which are statistically dangerous for riders.

Obviously these are things you can learn in a car, but it's just different. The stakes are higher for small accidents and you really are invisible to many people, even with hi-vis gear, motorcycles are just smaller at the end of the day and Americans are not used to them nor trained to keep them in mind on the road.

<comment><USER11> Thanks for the reply. I agree not hanging out in someone's blind spot and anticipating other drivers' actions are extremely important things to keep in mind while driving.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I commute on an electric bike in the Bay Area. Electric bikes are awesome to ride, but here are a summary of the main issues I've experienced so far:

\- LIES, LIES, LIES ABOUT RANGE -- I have a Gigabyke (gigabyke.com) which ships with an SLA battery (a horrible design desicion) and claims a range of 35 miles and a maximum rider weight of 250 pounds. Good luck. I weigh _half_ that and when I got it new, I clocked in exactly 23 miles before the battery crapped out. In Palo Alto, on flat ground, with no wind, on a nice sunny day. It struggles up hills. They really should have said "maxmum range 20 miles" and "maximum weight 150 pounds" if they wanted to be honest to customers. I replaced the battery with an aftermarket Lithium battery and get more acceptable performance now, but that does take some EE handywork.

\- REGULATION -- In California at least, it's technically a motorcycle if it goes past 20 mph. People hate seeing your electric bike on bike paths though. So you're forced to travel with 35-40 mph cars. On something that's hard- limited to 20 mph because of some silly law. The 20 mph limit actually makes them more unsafe. (This likely applies to a lot of US states. China doesn't have this problem; most electric bikes there don't have artifically imposed limits and are only limited by their motors.)

\- RED LIGHTS -- they never turn green, at least in much of the Bay Area. You're forced to run them because the sensors can't sense you. And it's illegal to ride onto the sidewalk to hit the pedestrian crossing light button.

\- HEAVY -- sure, they ship with pedals. They advertise that you can use them. But I'm downright _exhausted_ after pedaling my electric bike for 100 meters. In short, if you are at risk of running out of battery, use a normal bike instead, which can be recharged by ... eating. I can comfortably go 100 km a day on a normal bike as long as I have food and water available, whereas most electric bikes will cop out at less than 40 km. So ... great for commuting, not great for recreation.

On the plus side, they're super fun to ride, make a commute on a hot day much more pleasant than a bike ride, are super-easy to park in congested cities, help you avoid inhaling large amounts of carbon monoxide on your rush-hour commute, and ideal for getting around large school campuses where you can find charging outlets pretty much anywhere. So I love riding mine, overall. Just pointing out that they aren't totally mature technology just yet.

<comment><USER14> IMHO there's nothing inherently wrong with a cyclist "running" a red light. Cyclists are likely to be more aware of traffic conditions than motorists, and they have a strong interest in ensuring intersections are clear before entering. As with anything else, judgment matters. It's unfortunate that occasionally motorists will be sitting at a red light when they see a cyclist carefully approach the intersection and cross when it's safe to do so, rather than when the light turns green. That experience will be frustrating, but they'll have to _get over it_.

<comment><USER15> It's not the opinions of the car drivers that matter, but those of the police that might spot you: I got a Breathalyzer test and a 70 EUR ticket for doing just that on a bicycle in a mid-sized town in Germany on a Sunday evening, still light out. The Breathalyzer probably happened because "running" a red light after a minute at a dead stop probably looked particularly crazy.

<comment><USER14> If you didn't see the cop, you might not have been as aware of your surroundings as one ought to be to run a red? Nevertheless I've found police in general not to care too much about what cyclists do. Once when I was cycling while completely wasted, a cop simply _told_ me to walk my bike the rest of the way home. Which I did.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Cyclist here. It's a different type of vehicle than a leg-powered bike and therefore not cheating at all... unless you're recording your rides on Strava, then it is.

More bikes is a very good thing, whether human or human/electric powered.

<comment><USER17> Motorcyclist here. I agree. If it's got two wheels and it makes you smile, it's a good thing. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I have a couple of friends with e-bikes and they sound like a lot of fun. My only problem with them is that, by the time you've added 10-15kg of running gear to a bike, you've entered a feedback loop where the bike's heavier, and it goes faster, so it needs wider tyres, better brakes... and now is even heavier and harder to pedal, so it needs more power... pretty soon you have something that's enough of a motorbike that you can't pedal it unassisted and should really be wearing proper safety gear, but still enough of a bicycle that it's not a very good motorbike.

<comment><USER18> You really should be adding under 5kg for electric assist. As long as you can easily recharge at work ~100w for 1h is really plenty of power in most areas. On level ground you only need ~60w to do 15 km/h which is about the energy output from walking. Add 100w assist and you can get up modest hills fast enough to stay balanced without all that much effort which means you can show up at work without needing to shower most days.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Through happenstance I rode an bike with electric pedal assist a couple years ago, thinking that electric bikes were not for me, but why not try. I was instantly hooked, the high-quality pedal assists feel "magical", like you are just stronger or that your always headed down a gentle slope. They are also very quiet which helps make the experience (at least for me) a bit dream-like and surreal.

I really recommend everyone give one a test ride. For us, it ended up replacing our second car.

<comment><AUTHOR> _Through happenstance I rode an bike with electric pedal assist a couple years ago, thinking that electric bikes were not for me, but why not try. I was instantly hooked, the high-quality pedal assists feel "magical",_

I think this is a key point and what many, many people are missing in this thread. Ebikes can seem kinda lame or gimmicky. Then you actually try riding one and they suddenly make a lot more sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Electric bikes are really taking off in China. I wrote down my thoughts a while ago. Will copy and paste here:

Like a car, they offer cheap on-demand transit to your exact destination. Unlike a car they do not support long distances, heavy loads or more than 2 people, but often those features are not needed by the urban commuter. Furthermore they lack many of the drawbacks of a car; getting stuck in traffic, the need for parking, the need for insurance, licensing requirements, high fuel requirements etc. Furthermore an e-bike is a signifigantly smaller investment than a car. Having it lost, stolen or damaged poses less of a personal risk to your finances. Unlike a classical bike, e-bike's do not require the user to be in shape or even exert effort to operate. Thus we see that in the personal transport market, e-bikes represent the best of both worlds for the urban commuter. We can see proof by demonstration that in the right conditions they can be enormously popular (China). Why haven't they taken off all over the world yet?

1\. Topography. They are generally not powerfull enough to go up steep hills. Sadly this rules out San Fransisco which would otherwise be quick to pick up on an eco-friendly trend.

2\. Regulation. These vehicles neither qualify as motorcycles nor bicycles and thus are often ambiguous or de facto illegal in many parts of the states.

3\. Weather. Driving at 40 Km/hr in the cold of winter is unpleasant. The otherwise perfect markets of the flat mid-west and dense+flat New York may find this a deal breaker. Sun-belt cities without too much sprawl (Eg San Diego) are the only place in the states that are a perfect match. The Chinese have invented a rather unfashionable "bike apron" to make the cold weather driving tolerable.

I think point 2 is a huge mistake. If the US is serious about green technologies, deregulating e-bikes would be a huge boon.

<comment><USER21> I recently rode the electric share bikes in Beijing.

It was a fantastic experience. Pick up from anywhere, leave anywhere.

Share bikes are getting huge in China, sometimes causing a mess. But the white electric share bikes in Beijing were a fantastic experience and could have a big impact on the cities pollution and transportation issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> It could replace cars as long as it's not snowing, or raining, or too cold outside, or you don't have stuff to carry.

You know what could replace cars for millions of people? A subway. But first we have to work on legalizing high-density urban environments with narrow streets...

<comment><USER23> I live in a city in Norway.

Rain? Yeah, that's really no issue. Just dress properly and maybe take a change of clothes. Grocery store trips? Totally doable. I walk to the grocery and carry the stuff back. I did so in the states too - you just don't make huge trips. A lot of commuter bikes have places to carry your basic stuff anyway. Add a backpack and you are generally good. Too cold? Again, dress well most of the time and it isn't much of an issue. Your tolerance for cold grows over time. I'm not sure walking is warmer: On one hand, you move slower but on the other, it takes longer. Some forms of cold _do_ suck, but one deals.

Now, I'd like to agree with you on snow and ice. It seems risky to me - <USER3> I'm from Indiana. But they sell studded tires for bikes, and folks ride them in the winter here in town.

<comment><USER24> Studded tires on a 2 wheeled vehicle require real skill to handle. Like near snowboarding levels with generally worse crash consequences (pavement not snow)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm an avid cycle commuter(20 miles round trip every day) and would never consider ebikes cheating.

I do however find the traditional bicycle, due to its simplicity, reliability, and efficiency, to be one of our best inventions.

</comment><comment><USER26> Electric bikes are very popular in Tokyo. Many nurseries and schools forbid car drop offs of children. So parents speed around on e-bikes. Ive seen some parents with three kids on their bike. Child seat on front, child seat on back and baby in chest carrier.

<comment><USER27> They don't do car accidents in Japan? Astonishing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I agree with the main thesis, but from the exchange, it just sounded like the biker was giving the author some gentle ribbing.

</comment><comment><USER29> It's funny that the author writes about biking in Seattle and using transit to get around. I'm a little jealous.

I'd love to commute like this except that I live on the west side of Lake Washington and my job is on the east side of it[0]. And I work odd hours. There are exactly two bus route combinations that will get me across the lake: route 545 is a straight shot and route 550+RapidRide B is the one with the transfer. Except that, especially on days with nice weather like today, the bus is unusable when I leave work because all three slots on the bike rack may be filled and Sound Transit / King County Metro has an absolute rule against bringing a non-folding bike onto a bus[1].

I wish I could bike to work, and thus get used to biking more for general stuff. But I can't count on being able to bring my bike back home with me at night so it's walking+buses for me. I suppose I will just wait five years until East Link arrives at Northgate.

0 - Changing jobs or moving house are both non-starters since I've worked where I have for a very long time, almost two decades, and I'm lucky enough to have bought a small house.

1 - Sound Transit and King County both say that bikes are unsafe to carry on bus transit because the bus operates on a road and unexpected things might happen. My rebuttal has always been: OK, so why are bikes allowed on Link south of International District Station? Because, pardon my technicality, the train is also operating in the road. Or why are bikes allowed to be walked onto either streetcar (both of which are operated by King County Metro) since both _very much_ operate in mixed traffic?

</comment><comment><USER30> I have an ebike with relatively high power and a large battery because I live in the mountains with steep hills. My regular bike is pretty much useless near home. But my ebike has made me a cyclist again, and the only word to describe it is "joy." If you get a mid-drive ebike with at least 750 watts of power, you'll have no problem on San Francisco hills. I almost wish I lived in SF (almost) just to ride this bike there.

</comment><comment><USER31> It really won't. The fact is that even with an ebike, your effective radius is maybe fifteen miles in one day, which will take 45 minutes to an hour to cycle. Most people in the USA who need cars simply need transportation that is powered for longer and gives much longer of a range.

It also needs to be operated in many types of weather conditions, like snow, and often needs to cary four passengers or merchandise that takes up the same amount of room. One that isn't vulnerable to theft or stripping.

Also, for the price of a good one, you could get a gas powered moped or 50cc scooter, and watch your range extend dramatically with instant "recharging."

<comment><USER7> I think a big caveat here is "in cities". The author is from Seattle so I think they're writing from a perspective of someone for whom downtown is the furthest place they have to commute in a day. The other example given in the article quotes New York City. (and both quotes mention "urban")

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Just curious about people who commented here. Did anyone read the article? Or just read the title and then comments on what they think about electric bikes?

I haven't read the article, and this seems to be the case for tons and tons of these threads.

</comment><comment><USER33> I have very mixed feelings about riding bikes in cities. The health benefits can be completely negated (or worse) depending on the air quality around where you are riding. There are certainly reasons to ride other than that -- speed, freedom, etc. Electric bikes are good in that you can get to your destination faster than a regular bike, reducing exposure to the mentioned issues. There are few downsides to going electric -- hardly cheating.

<comment><USER34> Sitting in a car is still worse as you're exposed to same air but got no benefit. (unless you sit in HEPA filtered tesla or something...)

<comment><USER35> Although a HEPA filter can be very helpful, it does not remove most of the pollutants in car exhaust (CO, NOx, SOx).

<comment><USER34> PM2.5 particles are thing that give you cancer and higher concentrations are related to car traffic.

PM10 are not healthy either.

<comment><USER35> Oh, sure, but again the CO, NOx, SOx and most of the unburnt hydrocarbons in gasoline-fueled vehicle exhaust are not particles (they're gasses) and are not removed to any significant degree by a HEPA filter.

In the US, diesel cars are rare, and I would guess that the non-diesel cars in the US produce very little in the way of particulate pollution. Am I wrong about that?

<comment><USER34> Hmm. According to this [https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents...](https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/sbai_pres.pdf)

Most particulates are from exhaust but amount of this is falling and soon most contributing factor would be brake/tire wear.

<comment><USER35> That's why I used the qualifier "gasoline-fueled": the particulates are coming mostly from _diesel_ engines.

(I didn't belabor that point earlier because I assumed that people here would already know that because the VW diesel-emissions cheating scandal was such a big story.)

During a busy commute in a major US metro area, the vast majority of the vehicles on the road are gas-powered (because a large fraction of trucks will avoid busy commutes). I realize the situation is different in Europe where diesel-powered cars are much more common.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I have a yuba mundo cargo bike with a BBSHD 750W motor and Panasonic 52V battery. The whole setup costs around 2.5K, as I did the electric setup myself. It has been great as I can carry 2 kids on it, and as I live in a urban environment I never worry about parking. The BBSHD is a powerful motor and has been trouble free.

<comment><USER27> > I can carry 2 kids on it

Are you nuts? Do you want them to die?

<comment><USER36> They are in child seats, the Yuba is a great bike that is rated for over 700 pounds and has lots of child friendly adapters.

You can see more examples of parents pushing their kids in cargo bikes here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yy3kXIaKp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yy3kXIaKp8)

Without electric it can be a real workout, but with electric assist its so much more fun. The kids cry these days if we tell them they need to go into the car.

You can buy a Yuba with Electric from the company, but its 5K which seemed way too much when you can do it yourself for 1/2 the price.

<comment><USER27> Have you thought of what would happen if you collided with a car?

And then, have you thought of what would happen if you were in a car?

In the car, you have a crumple zone.

In the bike, _your kids_ are the crumple zone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> It's a decent article, but I don't believe for a second that exchange at the beginning actually happened

<comment><USER38> It's plausable from my experience riding an ebike. I've been yelled at by cyclists claiming that I'm not allowed to use trails, etc. and from /r/ebikes it's common to read that many cyclists call ebike riders "cheaters".

<comment><USER39> Depending on your locality and the power of your eBike, they may be right -- eBikes are restricted on many trails.

<comment><USER40> I've never heard of these trail restrictions on the east coast. I wonder if it is a west coast thing.

<comment><USER39> It's really hard to generalize since state and local laws vary so much.

For example, in Massachusetts, eBikes are allowed on bike paths, but not off- road bike trails:

[https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Ch...](https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIV/Chapter90/Section1B)

 _Motorized bicycles may be operated on bicycle lanes adjacent to the various ways, but shall be excluded from off-street recreational bicycle paths_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Reminds me of this great video I just saw about the new Motochimp [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEiJHq1Izwg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEiJHq1Izwg)

</comment><comment><USER42> How expensive is an electric bike? How do you keep it from getting stolen?

<comment><USER43> Mine costs about $1,000: [https://www.yamaha- motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/city-c/](https://www.yamaha- motor.co.jp/pas/lineup/city-c/)

But I'm in Tokyo so I'm not worried about theft at all. It has an integrated lock on the back wheel and this blocks the handle too.

<comment><USER42> Tokyo is the best.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I used to ride an ebike to work and my workmate sometimes rode a fancy racing bike. He had special tyres and clothes and all sorts of expensive stuff to make it easier. He also had to park it in the lunch room instead of the carpark because he was afraid it'd get stolen. I once asked him why he doesn't just put a motor on it and he wasn't happy with that at all. I don't remember his response other than some kind of arrogant dismissal.

If a motor is cheating, then thin tyres, carbon fiber frames and aerodynamic helmets are cheating too. They all reduce the human effort.

</comment><comment><USER45> If I'm going to travel more than 3 kilometres or so, I'm doing it in a car. Motorcycles and cycles are just too unsafe for daily commuting, no matter how environmentally friendly. They will never replace cars for "millions of people".

<comment><USER46> Where do you live (where it is unsafe)? There are millions in my country (India) who safely use bicycles, mopeds, and motorbikes. The degree of safety depends upon the culture of the city as well as the road (highway, valley, etc).

<comment><USER47> > There are millions in my country (India) who safely use bicycles, mopeds, > and motorbikes.

Every part of that statement is true except for the word "safely". I first got my driver's license in India, drove motorcycles and cars there, and then moved to the US. Based on my experience, as well as publicly available data, I can state as an objective fact that most drivers in India are terrible. You only have to look at the fatalities per million kilometers: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic- related_death_rate) India is approximately 5x worse than the UK, which is near top of the list. Even taking into account the differences in quality of roads and emergency medical services, that's an _enormous_ difference. To a first approximation, any adult bicyclist in India cycles out of necessity (can't afford anything safer) not choice (again, first approximation; I have a retired uncle who cycles 40km every weekend for exercise). Motorbike and moped-riders are a bit of a mixed bag; some people who can't afford a car, others who prefer it for traffic and parking advantages.

Whenever I visit India, it's astonishing to me the number of risks drivers (of cars, 2-wheelers and trucks alike) take with their own and other people's lives for very little gain. The concept of a lane is alien to most drivers, motorbikes speed like crazy and weave in and out of traffic (even I used to do it when I was younger and didn't know any better), no one ever yields to pedestrians, traffic signals don't work or aren't followed unless there's a cop standing there. I could go on and on.

Lest you think I'm a total wuss, I _love_ cycling in the US and it's my preferred mode of transportation for trips under 10 km. I've done plenty of cycling and motorbike riding in India also. But I would not dare ride a 2-wheeler on public roads in India on a consistent basis anymore. At least not until our driver training, licensing, testing, and enforcement regime becomes _much_ stricter than it currently is.</comment></comment></comment>