SICP in Clojure - <AUTHOR> http://www.afronski.pl/sicp-in-clojure/2015/08/07/sicp-in-clojure-chapter-2.html <comment><USER3> I've been feeling the past few weeks the repeated impact of hitting a wall. Programming was starting to feel like grinding. I felt wistful for SICP, when programming was full of big ideas and elegant new approaches to problems my unprincipled brain's first instinct was to clobber by brute force -- and learned, quickly, in Scheme, it's _hard_ to be artless. It is, I think, harder code gracelessly in Scheme than to code with grace: it has a way of bending your ideas to a form. I think that's my main complaint with Python. In Python, exactly the opposite is true: it doesn't force you to think overly hard about the _way_ you solve problems, so you can solve more problems! Woohoo! You can Code Like Coltrane, as Rich Hickey says.

For better or for worse. Here's an unfortunate side effect I've noticed: my programs are vastly more complex and efficient than when I graduated from SICP a year ago, which is good, and yet I can't remember the last time I wrote code that was truly beautiful. Code I felt proud to call my code. Whose inner workings I could explain to a child. To me, _efficient_ Python programs conceal so much of how they work, that striving for craftsmanship can feel alienating. It conceals so much. It's like a black box magic trick: in goes the value... (pause) oh, and there's the answer! And the obvious what's happening in between those two points, the less efficient my solution tends to be. The prize winning solutions are often the most opaque, the most dense with imported methods. And my programs look inevitably kind of haphazard and provisional. Like doodles.

My Scheme programs, on the other hand, looked like Swiss clocks. They pleased me. They wouldn't have worked any other way. They molded to the precise, regimented form they had to be. I understood them. They were good.

I like functional programming. I think the wall I'm hitting might be Python. The thought of a little Clojure or Haskell in my life right now sounds like a beach vacation.

<comment><USER4> I've been writing Python a lot coming from a Scheme/SICP background too, and I've slowly come to a sort of solution to this problem that works for me.

Basically, what it comes down to is realizing that a lot of the libraries and frameworks out there are smoke and mirrors: they provide an initial solution to a common problem, but when you start getting into the details of _your_ problem, the problem _you_ are trying to solve, you end up working around their crappy configuration points. In short, you stop coding and start configuring existing code which is poorly designed to solve your problem.

So what I do is I stop using those libraries. I zealously guard my dependencies, only letting in things that are solid, well-designed, mature, and minimally invasive. I use minimalist frameworks, eschewing ORMs. Most of the time I avoid classes, opting instead to use closures and namedtuples. The result, my code is fast, flexible, easy to understand, easy to test. I migrated around 30,000 lines of code from Python 2.7 to 3.4 in an afternoon-- my unit tests caught a few issues and once those were fixed I didn't see _any_ regressions in the following months.

I think the wall you're hitting isn't Python, it's the culture and libraries a lot of people use for Python. But there are a lot of people who don't use those things. Next time you think of reaching for pip or Django, stop yourself: do you need that? Maybe it provides a short-term solution to your problem, but in the long run it's neither a beautiful nor efficient way to write code.

<comment><USER5> would love to see an example of your code style...github account?

<comment><USER4> A lot of my thoughts on this subject were inspired by this Tweet: [https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/616327747435036672](https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/616327747435036672)

Maybe check out Gary Bernhardt's code?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There's also [http://ecmendenhall.github.io/sicpclojure/pages/contents.htm...](http://ecmendenhall.github.io/sicpclojure/pages/contents.html) which is an actual translation of the book into Clojure, currently up to chapter 2.1.4.

And the ill-fated sicpinclojure.com site, which looked beautiful and had such great promise, but mysteriously stalled and died.

Looks like vqc below has done quite a few of the exercises. Nice.

Tommy Hall's SICP Distilled seems like the best shot at a complete book now. It's running a bit behind schedule but appears to be in the home stretch. We'll see!

</comment><comment><USER7> Clojure seems too high level for SICP. Scheme was a perfect fit because of how simple it is and how few language features or data structures it contained. You had to build everything yourself, which was kind of the point.

</comment><comment><USER8> This is awesome! I would love to see this span the whole SICP book.

There was a kickstarter campaign for something called SICP Distilled, a while back. However it requires your github login which seemed kind of sketchy and also none of the content works anyway - [http://www.sicpdistilled.com/](http://www.sicpdistilled.com/). Maybe someone else knows more?

Anyway I look forward to seeing more chapters on your blog.

</comment><comment><USER9> I've spent a lot of time with SICP and with Clojure. The book changed my life, and I too considered working on "porting" the book, but there would be a considerable amount of friction. Clojure can do everything necesssary, but it's very unidiomatic to build data structures out of pairs in Clojure, and SICP spends a _lot_ of time implementing data structures with pairs. A reconsideration of SICP for the modern age would, I think, take vectors and maps and sets as given, and see what _additional_ magic could be built from there!

Just start with sequences. Lazy sequences, which are so helpful in the expert system database that's built in SICP, are already right there in Clojure without the complications of force and delay. My thought is you could do a lot more with the higher level examples, but a lot of the first half of the book would have to be rethought. (The functional implementation of Conway's Life in O'Reilly's "Clojure Programming" is as good as anything in the first third of SICP, for example; the example of accelerating series convergence from SICP seems less exciting today than it used to, at least to me.)

</comment><comment><USER10> To the author: on the compound data structures example, it would be much better to return an anonymous function with `fn` than to use `defn`. `defn` is meant to add global definitions to the namespace, not to be used as a value.

<comment><USER11> This was confusing to me as well since in the Scheme examples they embed functions into each other with define. It may be useful to use _letfn_ to achieve something similar.

<comment><USER12> Implementing _define_ in a way that allowed it to be used was one of Scheme's innovations relative to some of the other Lisps in the 1970's. It's idiomatic in part because it is easier for new programmers to read and Scheme historically and _SICP_ perpetually are targeted at newer programmers.

Clojure most definitely is not. It's not an accident that Clojure's _fn_ is only two characters. It's design as a language encourages anonymous functions. Along with _recur_ there are many fewer cases where the simpler ways to do something require a name.

The fundamental problem of trying to port _SICP_ to other languages is that _SICP_ is not a book about programming in Scheme. It's a book about software engineering, and the points about software engineering are made in ways that can be readily illustrated in Scheme. _Cons_ is used to illustrate engineering ideas, and while those ideas could be illustrated in Clojure, there's an impedance mismatch between _cons_ and the roughly analogous constructs in Clojure. Part of the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater for little advantage...understanding Scheme probably makes someone a better Clojure programmer, while the force fit of _SICP_ into Clojure probably won't.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "I personally don't think SICP will help you much with Clojure. YMMV."

—Rich Hickey, author, Clojure programming language

<comment><USER14> My guess is that this is being taken out of context.

I don't want to put words in Rick's mouth, but I imagine that he means that SICP won't help you learn Clojure the language. Not that SICP won't make you a better programmer in Clojure (and all other languages).

Personally I found it helpful to work through the book in scheme (the language used in the book), porting some of the exercises to Clojure and other languages I'm interested in as a supplement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> For those people in London (England) interested in SICP in Clojure, we are running a monthly study group. Our google groups group is [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sicp- mailonline](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sicp-mailonline) and the code is at [https://github.com/MailOnline/sicp- mailonline](https://github.com/MailOnline/sicp-mailonline) (each person has their own branch).

We are just starting Chapter 3 and at the current rate of progress it will be at least a year before we have completed the entire book!

Anyone interested is welcome to join us :-)

</comment><comment><USER16> There was another person doing SICP in Clojure too, but it's been frozen in chapter 2 for a couple of years now. [https://github.com/ecmendenhall/sicpclojure](https://github.com/ecmendenhall/sicpclojure)

Hope this one gets to cover the whole book.

<comment><USER16> Also really interesting: [http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/](http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> This is exciting; I've been looking forward to doing this exact thing myself.

Some more solutions can be found at [https://github.com/gregsexton/SICP- Clojure](https://github.com/gregsexton/SICP-Clojure)

</comment><comment><USER18> The link to previos charpter in the blog post 404's (but I could navigate to it through the sidebar). Anyway, I'm looking forward to reading them when I get home and hope to see the following charpters as well.

<comment><USER19> I've changed yesterday the structure and I've messed up previous links - <USER2> should be fine now. ;)</comment></comment>


Breakdown of the Takedown: Osama's Last Hour - <AUTHOR> http://namesake.com/blog/2011/05/infographics/a-breakdown-of-the-takedown-osamas-last-hour/

<comment><USER2> Great piece, there is a lot of misinformation out there and this really helps get to the facts!</comment>


Show HN: Tally – Create polls in no time - <AUTHOR> http://tally.tl/GQDy3 <comment><AUTHOR> Howdy!

I built Tally because I couldn't find a poll tool which was both super simple and clean. Let me quote James Murphy: "The best way to complain is to make things."

Plus I wanted to figure out what are the biggest challenges fellow startup founders are struggling with, therefore: [http://tally.tl/GQDy3](http://tally.tl/GQDy3)

If you would have any questions, please do shoot.

</comment><comment><USER2> Love the simplicity. Some thoughts:

\- It would be cool to have a button for making a private link for editing (by default its "editable" after clicking a button you enter editmode that is hosted at a different url than the viewmode)

\- When I leave the browser to lookup the next entry in a list and return the cursor is gone. I have to click in the last entry to get my cursor back.</comment>


Google's Parent Has a Plan to Eliminate Mosquitoes Worldwide - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/how-to-kill-mosquitoes-google-and-verily-have-a-plan <comment><USER2> Seems to me, doing that is a considerable discussion. It's not like we have a test ecosystem to live in.</comment>


Sleep Is the New Status Symbol for Successful Entrepreneurs (1999) - <AUTHOR> http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB923008887262090895 <comment><USER2> The article almost reads like a parody! Who would have thought that getting good, restful sleep would enhance cognitive ability and performance? Almost a "duh" statement.

I am however very interested in why we need as much sleep as we do. Certainly a product of evolution/biology but I am constantly amazed how little we know of what happens to our brain when we go comatose for 8 hours a night.

To another species/race it might actually seem frightening. What?! Humans go into a death like state every 24 hours?!

<comment><USER3> One function of sleep may be to clean up waste accumulated while awake. To run the cleaning process while awake may require more active energy consumption and was a way of conserving total energy in our evolutionary past when activity wouldn't be very productive anyways.

[http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm](http://www.nih.gov/news/health/oct2013/ninds-17.htm)

<comment><USER2> So basically we run garbage collection for 8 hours every night.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Surprised no one's doing the obvious startup metric joke.

Sex, Sleep, or Cashflow: choose one. If see that you're getting two, you're doing really well. If you're getting three, it's time to sell the company.

</comment><comment><USER5> Biological health is now a status symbol among successful citizens of developed nations! Getting your basal metabolic calories and potable water? Sleeping the neurochemically-mandated amount? You must be the king of the world.

<comment><USER6> I realize you're being satirical, but these things are slowly starting to be a sign of success. Being able to eat the recommended daily amount of calories (no more, no less), staying active and sleeping well are starting to be signs of success and status instead of the norm. The higher up the success ladder you look, the fewer overweight, out of shape, sleep deprived, dehydrated people you tend to see.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Full-page screenshot for those who can't view: [http://i.imgur.com/hDXXvIm.png](http://i.imgur.com/hDXXvIm.png)

<comment><USER8> How did you take this screenshot? Thanks

<comment><USER9> In Firefox press Shift+F2, then type "screenshot --fullpage" in the command line at the bottom of the page. No addon, plugin or extension needed.

<comment><USER10> Wow! Thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> We need to register/login to read the article.

<comment><USER12> [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Sleep+Is+the+New+Status+Symbol+for+Succ...](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Sleep+Is+the+New+Status+Symbol+for+Successful+Entrepreneurs)

< The WSJ (and others) allow full viewing when referred by Google >

<comment><USER13> I don't see why that had to be an insulting animated "let me Google that for you link."

<comment><USER14> Do you know of another automated service?

<comment><USER15> [http://goo.gl/6DlbO3](http://goo.gl/6DlbO3)

<comment><USER16> There's a paywall from that source as well.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Visualizing Memorization in RNNs - <AUTHOR> https://distill.pub/2019/memorization-in-rnns/ <comment><USER2> Great post. Long sequences are a problem I have been dealing with long enough now. Even though GRU outperforms LSTM in longer sequences, it still isn't enough and vanishing gradients problem is still experienced. Currently, one- dimensional convolution units are effective while dealing with longer time steps, but sadly it's not the precise unit people wish to use while processing longer time-steps.</comment>


The Journal Science Has Had It with Trump - <AUTHOR> https://www.wired.com/story/americas-top-science-journal-has-had-it-with-trump/ <comment><USER2> Trump lied about science

[https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6510/1409?rss=1](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6510/1409?rss=1)

<comment><USER3> That my friends is post truth politics. Example: arsonists deliberately setting fires across Oregon, California, etc and everyone frames it as 'climate change' being as the cause and gaslighting everyone who disagrees as a 'climate denier'.

The war of deception to control the narrative. Every US election year.

<comment><USER2> > The war of deception to control the narrative. Every US election year.

There are always these responses that say everything is like it was before.

Maybe this kind of inability to comprehend scales and proportion comes from just watching news and never reading, I don't know.</comment></comment></comment>


We're learning more about the craving that fuels self-defeating habits - <AUTHOR> http://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/the-addicted-brain/ <comment><USER2> The article mentions naltrexone. Dr Eskapa's research of using naltrexone led to The Sinclair Method. His book is called The Cure For Alcoholism. He has made it available for free download here, [https://www.dropbox.com/s/60fs7gmvbyzs1kk/Cure%20for%20Alcoh...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/60fs7gmvbyzs1kk/Cure%20for%20Alcoholism.pdf?dl=0) (please do support him and buy the book if it is of use to you and you have the means)

The Sinclair Method shows that for many people alcoholism is simple chemistry and the addiction can be "unlearned" by taking naltrexone (a cheap patent free drug) an hour before drinking.

If you're interested in finding out more we have a subreddit at [https://www.reddit.com/r/alcoholism_medication/](https://www.reddit.com/r/alcoholism_medication/).

<comment><USER3> Honestly, doing something "an hour before" doing something compulsive might be a placebo that trains people to delay doing something destructive. Once that happens, it is much easier to stop doing it completely. I imagine if there was a diet that said "drink a cup of water before eating that cupcake" it might be equally as effective for compulsive eaters.

<comment><USER4> Many alcoholics are already quite adept at delayed gratification, whether it be waiting until they get home for the night before pounding 5-10 drinks, or even waiting for loved ones to go to sleep so they can "hide" their habit.

<comment><USER5> Addiction isn't a soft lack of will but an iron surplus of it despite perennial invectives; it's antifragile. Any cessation/treatment regimen/regime imposed on someone else merely reinforces their drive.

<comment><USER6> > Addiction isn't a soft lack of will but an iron surplus of it

Relevant: [http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13](http://existentialcomics.com/comic/13)

<comment><USER5> My my my there is a lot going on there! fun read.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> tl;dr the thesis is that addiction is a learning process of reinforcing behavior->reward understanding. Targeted magnetic pulses look to be capable of altering the chemistry of the neural pathways where this understanding lives.

The article also notes how increasingly more behaviors are treated as addictions. Korea provides government subsidized gaming addiction treatment, which I think is interesting to consider if we are physically altering destructive behavioral patterns to reprogram people Where will the limits be? Might a workaholic be treated? What about junk food, smart phones? An adolescent with a history of getting kicks out of tormenting others? Fanatical racists or nationalists?

On another note, there are other theories about addiction to supplement this one: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg)

<comment><USER8> This line of ethical questioning is behind the plot of Anthony Burgess's 1962 novel "A Clockwork Orange". The main character Alex is subject of an experimental aversion therapy for rehabilitating criminals but the method is flawed and leads to unfair consequences for him.

<comment><USER9> I'm generally in favor of rehabilitation, but in the case of Alex, I thought that the punishment was fitting.

<comment><USER10> Well that's the major question, as far as I'm concerned. Does the punishment fit the crime? Are there punishments for which there are no fitting crimes?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Reminds me of the concept of the habit loop in _The Power of Habit_ [0] by Charles Duhigg.

[0]: [http://charlesduhigg.com/the-power-of- habit/](http://charlesduhigg.com/the-power-of-habit/)

<comment><USER12> From the book, on the habit loop and why we're using toothpaste every day

[http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2012/02/an_exc...](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2012/02/an_excerpt_from_charles_duhigg_s_the_power_of_habit_.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> The FT (not pay-walled unlike most FT content) recently had an interesting podcast on this topic with a focus on sugar addiction:

[https://www.ft.com/content/7af80630-c1a6-4833-9f39-dae093b34...](https://www.ft.com/content/7af80630-c1a6-4833-9f39-dae093b348d3)

<comment><USER14> Google search + incognito usually allows a few peeks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I think this is great research, and untangling the loops is something that has a disproportionate positive impact on so much of society.

From an anthropology perspective I'm always curious if there is a selective bias toward a given configuration. And in this case I wonder about what sort of selective bias would select for addictive reinforcement of a behavior over a lack of that reinforcement.

</comment><comment><USER16> Likely interesting to readers of this thread: [https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bmvdnm/how- psyche...](https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/bmvdnm/how-psychedelic- drugs-psilocybin-lsd-could-help-treat-addiction)

</comment><comment><USER17> Reminds me of Baumeister's research on willpower and energy depletion: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfnUicHDNM8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfnUicHDNM8)

<comment><USER18> Validity of Baumeister's research has been disputed recently: [http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/cover_story...](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/cover_story/2016/03/ego_depletion_an_influential_theory_in_psychology_may_have_just_been_debunked.html?wpsrc=sh_all_dt_tw_top)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Related Radiolab episode: The Fix [http://www.radiolab.org/story/addiction/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/addiction/)

</comment><comment><USER20> The habits defeat themselves?</comment>


Tesla co-founder and CTO JB Straubel stepping down - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/24/tesla-co-founder-and-cto-jb-straubel-stepping-down/ <comment><USER2> Why do some many people hate Tesla and want them to fail? Do they also want SpaceX to fail?

Elon can be an asshat sometimes, and he oversells and is over-optimistic. But even if the short sellers are right and Tesla will go bankrupt (which, btw, does not equal failure in many ways), why are so many people excited about that?

Most tech giants of recent times have done things I would consider to have made the world a much worse place. Why is Tesla, which has done a lot for humanity and is a key advancement in tackling climate change, hated so much? Why not save your hate for companies damaging democracy or workers rights, which seem like more serious charges?

<comment><USER3> For me it's because they do damage their workers' rights and their fans are so insufferable: The denial that they have quality issues, the repeated lies ("we are going to build a factory in weeks", while everyone knows that it will take years), the massive overvaluation. It's either you are on team Tesla and celebrating every of Elon's brainfarts or you are "big oil" that is trying to destroy them: Just look what happens when countries try to introduce standardised charing cables.

I just wish they would be frank about what they can and cannot do.

EDIT: And by the way about that pathetic "climate change" argument. Right, they are now selling Fiat their CO2 certificates thus enabling them to do wonderful green washing.

<comment><USER4> To be honest it really disturbs why people hate Tesla so much. Citing your reason for them being over-optimistic or over-promising, how else do people change the world? I don't mean this message as an attack but something to think about. These guys are working on something No one has EVER done in the history of mankind and we require them to stick to timetables and if they don't the punishment is we wish them failure and celebrate it? If Tesla is to succeed all our lives will be better for it, why are their mistakes and obstacles celebrated? Why do we care if the company is overvalued? This is the same sentiment towards Apple when the iPhone first came out till it no longer could be ignored. Tesla is far from a perfect company, but their mission is true and the real question we should be asking ourselves rather than if we like Elon, or if the company is overvalued or if they over promise and under deliver. the real question is, Is this company really trying to fulfill its mission statement, If yes, would we want such a mission to succeed?

<comment><USER5> All that is great. I just wish they could do it without lying through their teeth. Elon is still claiming with a straight face that fully autonomous, L5 Teslas are coming next year. This is a lie. Everyone knows it is a lie. Why is this necessary? Couldn't he change the world without engaging in that sort of behavior?

<comment><USER6> Lying is perhaps the wrong word here. Sharing self-delusion is probably a more accurate way of describing it. He genuinely believes many of his own exaggerations. But to be fair without a big dose of self delusion no one would be crazy enough to try these things in the first place.

I take his claims with a massive pinch of salt, while also appreciating that trait is somewhat necessary to solve the problems he's trying to solve.

<comment><USER5> > He genuinely believes many of his own exaggerations.

Either a) he is lying, or b) the CEO of multiple companies worth a combined ~$100b is delusional to the point of being unable to recognize basic facts. Pick your poison.

<comment><USER7> He is CEO of those companies exactly because of his above average ability to make those delusions reality, no matter how impossible people considered e.g. landing rocket stages. I'd prefer him to project more of a visionary image with less harmful/psychotic aspects, but you can only get humans as a complete package and I'd have a hard time coming up with people to replace him.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Eberhard and Tarpenning were the original founders and incorporated Tesla, while Musk, Straubel and Wright joined in a Series A round later on. A lawsuit settlement agreed to by Eberhard and Tesla in September 2009 allows all five to call themselves founders.]"

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#cite_note- founders...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#cite_note-founders-3)

<comment><USER9> And the 2009 news article properly referenced by that wikipedia article:

[https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there- ar...](https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there-are-five/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm going to miss his detailed, technical answers to questions during Q&As. He's been with Tesla since the beginning, for 15 years, and seems to be departing on good terms though.

</comment><comment><USER11> > His departure is the latest in a long string of high-profile executives to > leave Tesla in the past year, most recently Steve McManus, a vice president > in charge of engineering for car interiors and exteriors at Tesla, who > joined Apple. Two other former Tesla executives, Michael Schwekutsch, and > chief engineer Doug Field, have also left to join Apple.

Not to understate the significance of Tesla losing Straubel, but TechCrunch's claim that Tesla is losing lots of "high-profile executives" seems like a little bit of a stretch. Steve McManus was a vice president in charge of "car interiors." It seems strange to place him on the same level of significance of their CTO.

<comment><USER12> BMW's CEO stepped down 2 weeks ago. Ford has had 4 CEOs in the last four years... not a sound from the media.

The janitor at Tesla quits and its a top story about a company in turmoil.

<comment><USER13> Even more: the BMW CEO quit basically for being completely unable to deliver on the EV roadmap and squandering the huge advantage BMW had in the field.

<comment><USER14> I don't think BMW ever had any kind of advantage in this field, never mind huge.

<comment><USER15> The i3 was reasonably good for its time, then they disbanded the team and lost their way

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> To me the question is whether 1) the people who are leaving are the best in their field 2) they are the best for Tesla's long term plan and 3) whether this is normal / not normal for a high profile company or a disruptive tech company in 2019.

</comment><comment><USER17> "His role cannot be understated"

Is this a typo or another think you crazy Americans do backwards, like "I can hardly wait"

<comment><USER18> If his role is important, this should read, "his role cannot be overstated."

Just like people they don't care at all should be saying "I couldn't care less."

It annoys me, too!

<comment><USER19> I would argue that overstated would be wrong because you could surely overstate his role. "He was the only reason Tesla existed, would be overstating his role.

I think "his role shouldn't be understated" would be the correct phrase given the context.

<comment><USER18> I agree with you. Can I blame "first thing in the morning" posting on my error? Either way, I was incorrect and you have corrected me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I am wondering how much Andrej Karpathy changed; from a happy Stanford lecturer to somebody whose immature tech killed/maimed a few people already due to managerial pressure from Elon...

<comment><USER21> Personal attacks are not ok on HN, regardless of whom you're attacking. Please don't do this again.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The fonts are so wacky on this webpage, that it looks like they copy/pasted from elsewhere

</comment><comment><USER23> You can't really blame people for looking out for themselves in the short run, but still I think it's a little weak to leave one of the biggest tech endeavours to do something else. Honestly, if I would work in a key role in Tesla I would rather take a demotion to non-C-level before I accept to leave that company.

And if you don't think just short term, it's also the biggest financial opportunity, even if Tesla loses. All the knowledge, connections etc that you can build in that time will pay off in the end. There is not a single company in that size where losing for the company necessarily also means a loss for its ambitious talent.

Think about how America and the Arabs hired the biggest Nazi talent after second world war. Even losing and being clearly labelled as the devil is not enough to stop talent from being successful. Always keep fighting!</comment>


Ask HN: anybody bought droid? what has been your experience? - <AUTHOR>

Anybody bought droid? how is it compared to iPhone? <comment><USER2> Picked one up yesterday.

Has a nice heft to it, it's very snappy, and the screen is _beautiful_.

The turn-by-turn works well, and the voice recognition is _phenomenal_.

Oh, and the camera sucks (in bright light it's not bad, but in low light, it's unusable).

<comment><USER3> Do you think the problems with the camera are with the hardware or the software? On a related note, is there an SDK?

<comment><USER4> Rumors are that it's software. Unconfirmed and I have no cite, but I've read already that some aspect of the autofocus has already been fixed, but hasn't yet been pushed out.

FWIW, I find the camera ok; I haven't had too much autofocus issues, and it's worked ok in low light for me. Not great, but I have a 'real' camera for 'real' photos. Phone shots are spur of the moment things for me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I looked at one today. My biggest concern is the 5GB transfer limit. Worse than that, it's not a limit! Each additional GB is $50. The sales guy at the Verizon store tried to tell me that the limit was for tethering only, but I don't think he was correct. Does any have a definitive answer?

<comment><USER6> I think it really is unlimited.

For my Droid, I have the "email and web for smartphone" plan ($30). I also have a separate wireless broadband card and plan ($60). When I look at my account on Verizon's web site, I see a data cap of "5GB" for my broadband card and a data cap of "unlimited" for my Droid.

<comment><USER7> Verizon stopped using the term "Unlimited" on any of their plans after they lost some lawsuits. Look closer at the small print and there is always a limit stated.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I haven't used the iPhone much so I can't give a good comparison to that. I came from a Treo, and have been a Palm user for about 10 years.

I knew when I bought the Droid that there would be things I'd be missing that I took for granted on Palm. I was right. There are configuration options that seem to be missing completely, like the ability to order contacts by last name. I was also surprised that using an unlock pattern disabled the mute toggle on the lock screen.

I also miss synchronization with my Mac. I think The Missing Sync should work on it soon, but the current prerelease does not.

I agree with ckinnan that the keypad is awkward, and unlike him I have small hands. I've been using the virtual keyboard and it's been working all right.

The email application does what I need it to, although you need to be able to connect to an smtp server to set it up. I use an ssh tunnel to my smtp server, so that was a problem for a bit; fortunately, ConnectBot let me set up an ssh tunnel very easily.

The browser has been fine for me; much better than the Palm's.

On the whole, I think it's going to be a good device. I'm looking forward to getting the SDK so I can scratch some of my itches.

<comment><AUTHOR> Personally, camera isn't that much of an issue. My guess is that synchronization and configuration problems should be fixed, sooner or later.

Keyboard is definitely an prob, I like the physical keyboard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I picked mine up Friday, and I have to say it is amazing. The physical keyboard takes a bit of getting used to (the trick is to use the flat part of the tip of your thumbs and to be confident). The navigation feature of Google maps is also very useful. When you get close to your destination, it automatically jumps into street view facing the side of the road corresponding to your destination address.

For another $3/mo, you get visual voicemail which is a nice first for Verizon. I've been using a Blackberry Pearl and iPod Touch for the past couple years as my mobile solution and was happy overall, but this is much better.

Sure, maybe the iPhone is a bit better due to its app selection, but that doesn't even come close to the benefits of Verizon's network in my situation.

Bottom line: if you're on Verizon and looking for a better phone, get it. If you're simply deciding between an iPhone and a Droid, the hardware/software of the two are close enough that you can look at other factors (like network coverage) to make your decision.

</comment><comment><USER10> I checked it out today, I was disappointed with the keypad, which is important to me as I have big hands. The Droid keys don't have much separation and aren't raised like Blackberry's.

If you buy it online the $100 rebate is instant and you can score another $50 off if you are a new Verizon customer or if you're existing and are out of contract.

</comment><comment><USER11> Take a look at this unless you already did:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=927927>

</comment><comment><USER12> Yes, I was very pleasantly surprised after all the nit-picky and sometimes outright wrong reviews I read (there's nothing wrong with the camera!). I'm very pleased with the Droid. Keep in mind however, I've been dealing with the Fuze (Touch Diamond - WinMo) on AT&T for the last year, so I haven't really had any smartphone service at all.....

<comment><USER13> I felt the same way with my Fuze, but then I upgraded it to Win Mobile 6.5 using XDA's EnergyROM and I must say, it's a completely different experience. My Fuze actually functions as a decent smartphone now. Apps, interface, experience, etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I have never used an iPhone, but used them extensively. I got my Droid today, and I love it. I came from a long line of Blackberries. The Droid is SOO much faster, and the voice search/navigation is really amazing. The Market has some pretty cool apps on it too, not as many as the iPhone, but plenty.</comment>


iPhone 4 Reintroduced in India for Rs. 22,900($370). This is Bad News. - <AUTHOR> http://ishan.co/iphone-4-reintroduced-in-india

<comment><USER2> I live in California. I still use my iPhone 4, which I bought over three years ago. It is the only cell phone I have.

I'm running iOS 7, and I don't see what the big deal is. Sure, the 5S feels snappier, but my old phone is still beautiful, solidly built, and easy to use.</comment>


Why the Dow is a useless market index - <AUTHOR> http://erikrood.com/Posts/DJIA.html <comment><USER2> Relevant episode of Planet Money:

[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/04/508261371/episo...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/01/04/508261371/episode-443-dont- believe-the-hype)

"It's no secret that we here at Planet Money think the Dow is a terrible economic indicator. We don't like that it only looks at thirty companies. We don't like the way it does its math. We think it does a bad job reflecting the overall economy. Honestly, we're not sure why everyone is still talking about it."

<comment><USER3> > Honestly, we're not sure why everyone is still talking about it.

It's like telling a compulsive gambler their favourite "system" won't predict luck. They just don't want to hear that.

<comment><USER4> Not really, it's not predicting the future like a gambling system. It's just a measurement people are familiar with because they have reference points in mind.

<comment><USER5> The phases of the moon are also a familiar measurement system for which people have reference points in mind.

<comment><USER6> The phases of the moon are pretty good for predicting moon rise, moon set, time of month, days of the year, days, and the tides.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The DJIA is just the sum of 30 stock prices, divided by a "divisor" which is adjusted to keep the value constant when a company is added or removed. The amazing thing is that it's quite useful. But why?

One reason is a long-standing tradition that stocks should be priced in the range 10 to 100. This tradition stems from old ticker system limitations, and it's weaker than it used to be, but it still has some force. Stocks which get well above 100 usually split (yes, there's BRK), and stocks which get below 10 are usually considered to be in trouble. Below 1, they're called "penny stocks" and get delisted from the big exchanges.

As a result, successful companies tend to be near the top of the 10-100 range. This weights them higher in the DJIA. Right now, here's the list.[1] Goldman Sachs is the only one above 200, and they really ought to split. They might get replaced in the DJIA if they don't. Nobody is below 10; GE, at 23, is at the bottom.

[1] [http://money.cnn.com/data/dow30/](http://money.cnn.com/data/dow30/)

<comment><USER8> Fascinating. Thinking about how GOOG is $824 right now, and how it's not in the Dow, I found:

"This quirk kept Apple from joining the index until recently. The world's biggest tech company, despite its massive influence on the economy and the markets, was excluded from the Dow Jones Industrial Average because its share price of about $600 would have given it outsize influence on the index. However, when the company split its stock 7-for-1, it became a viable Dow addition." [1]

[1] [https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/05/18/the-30-dow...](https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/05/18/the-30-dow- jones-stocks.aspx)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> >So, next time you hear someone talk about the Dow in any serious sense, kindly point them in the direction of an index weighted by market capitalization (e.g. S&P 500 or Wilshire 5000),

The most commonly used index - the one that is shown in the news or discussed with your Uber driver. should be index that provides essential information for the average person.

I would advocate pointing people towards total return indexes of S&P 500 or Wilshire 5000. Index's total return displays a more accurate representation of the index's performance than price index and it can be used directly to benchmark stocks to other investments.

Surprising amount of people are not aware that stock price index is not accurate measurement of stock market performance over longer periods of time.

[http://imgur.com/a/uHRZ9](http://imgur.com/a/uHRZ9)

<comment><USER10> > The most commonly used index - the one that is shown in the news or > discussed with your Uber driver. should be index that provides essential > information for the average person.

Seriously, why? Those discussions are no different from discussion of sports scores, and equally as relevant to the decisions people make. So who cares if they are talking baseball, the dow, sunspots, or astrology? Or Apple vs android?

(BTW I realized the Dow indices are nonsensical as a teen ager, so am not defending them in the slightest)

<comment><USER9> It's very important when people save for retirement and think about different investment options.

There are all kinds of invest in gold snake oil salesmen around.

<comment><USER10> But they shouldn't be managing their investments on a day-to-day bases much less basing decisions on conversations with random uber drivers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I wouldn't go so far as to call it useless - anachronistic perhaps, but useless no.

When the Dow was first calculated, real time market capitalization for individual companies wasn't a thing. Prevailing market price was a decent enough proxy that Charles Dow could make an index of leading industrial firms out of prices (and price changes) alone.

As others have pointed out, over a long enough time period the Dow Jones has a high correlation with market cap weighted indices. Its annual volatility has been about 1.5 percentage points more a year, but average returns over any reasonable holding period are barely different than, say, the S&P 500.

There's an even better argument against the Dow than the price weighting though - the somewhat arbitrary company inclusions. One of the more interesting pieces of history is IBM's 40-year 'vacation' from the Dow. If IBM had stayed in for the 40 years after 1939 you could tack on another 5 figure number to today's index price.

<comment><USER12> > When the Dow was first calculated, real time market capitalization for > individual companies wasn't a thing

How is this possible? People were buying shares without knowing what fraction of the company they represented ??

<comment><USER11> More in the sense that we don't realize how spoiled we are (and how the standards have improved). I don't even have to leave this table to see the effects of share issuance or buybacks from a public company, and it's all updated in close to real time for me.

It's not that you couldn't make a _pretty-reasonable_ estimate, it's just that the ecosystem is much improved and easier to roll up for the indices we follow today. The Wilshire is from the 70s and the first flavor of the S&P came 30 years after the Dow (and was 'only' 90 firms). If you read Security Analysis (first edition: 1934) you can still see some of this in action; it mentions how only some statistical services (paid!) would calculate/estimate the current number of shares outstanding.

<comment><USER13> I don't know what is "updated in close to real time" for you, but normally companies disclose the number of shares outstanding and details about buybacks programs once per quarter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's not ideal but to call it useless is arrogant and immature. It's a decent indicator of how the blue caps are doing in the markets. SP500 is arguable better but the DJI isn't useless.

<comment><USER15> No Google, No Amazon. Its an arbitrary choice of 30 companies out of the top 100 market caps based mostly on stock price and whose friends are on the board.

I think Hacker News could come up with a better list of 30 stocks with market cap over $30B.

<comment><USER14> You're not disagreeing with what I wrote.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> That's the reason why Berkshire Hathaway is out of the index, while based on the market cap, it should clearly be in (~400B).

That being said, the correlation between DIJ and S&P is close to 100% so for all practical reasons (from a long term investor point of view) it should be OK.

</comment><comment><USER17> I see a couple of problems with these arguments. First, the assumption that market capitalization is more important for weighting a market index than share price. I'd argue that if your goal is to measure the health of the overall stock market, companies that control the most money should be weighted not much more than less valuable companies. Just because Wal-Mart, Amazon, and Costco are doing great, doesn't mean that JCPenny, Macy's and smaller retailers that employ hundreds of thousands of people are doing great. Giving more weight to smaller companies introduces more companies than just those at the top of the value spectrum. A company with massive resources can probably weather certain negative economic variations better than smaller companies, so to focus solely on those to the exclusion of all others seems to be willfully ignoring a significant part of what comprises the overall market.

The other issue is that even though the S&P is cited as being a much better index to track the market, the fact is that the Dow and the S&P correlate almost identically historically. So even if the Dow is reasoned to be much worse than the S&P, history shows that they both reflect basically the same thing.

</comment><comment><USER18> I guess all the Dow futures and options traders should just pack up and go home? Dow trading is as useful as any index with volume in analyzing herd behavior. It's a far better prospect than analyzing any of it's individual components in isolation.

</comment><comment><USER19> Not so useless: you can construct hadge fund-like trading strategies with the DOW and SP500.

Both DOW and SP500 have some tendency to go up and down at the same time in bull and bear market times.

When this happens you can (for instance) short DOW and long SP500 and your losses in the sort side will be covered by the gains in the logn side...

...but they will be uncorrelated for short periods of time. So, if your short possition goes down while your long is constant or goes down _much slower_ than your short, then you're making money.

Probably you can make this kind of hedging with very little money (or almost free) using the fee you get from going short to buy the long leg of the spread.

<comment><USER20> So all you need to do is predict the future to know which way to go long/short, and... profit!

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Ive heard similar complaints for years and it makes sense to me - what doesn't is why alternatives arent used or created? I don't understand everything about stock markets or certainly their politics but it seems on the surface that if you had a better indicator of the economy itd be pretty easy to show its usefulness. And with historical data you should be able to replicate a new index and measure its effectiveness.

<comment><USER22> The S&P500 is a fine index. People just use that instead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> tldr: The Dow 30 index is a bit absurd, however it's not as bad as it seems because of portfolio theory.

The Dow 30 correlates highly with the S&P500 index over medium-long periods of times (approx more than a month) [1]. This correlation is due to the fact that the 30 stocks that are selected are arbitrary but not random. They are selected by a human process which considers which companies contribute an important factor to the overall market [2]. Of course this process will be imperfect because it's vague, however it gets pretty close.

Don't forget, according to findings from portfolio theory, it's possible to replicate an index with only a small subset of the components of that index [3]. There's a whole field of work describing how to do this [search google for 'replicating index'],

In fact, replicating an index with a small number of stocks is exactly how 'smart trading' companies like wealthfront and bettermint make money. They find multiple non-overlapping subsets of the S&P500 which correlate strongly with S&P500 performance. Then they buy subset A, and if a loss is incurred in any month, they sell subset A and buy subset B. Since A and B are highly correlated with each other (ideally r>.99) and with the S&P500, the investor should expect the same return in the future, however can book a capital loss which creates a tax refund. Shifting from subset A to subset B avoids a wash- sale allowing the capital loss to be recognized [4].

The Dow 30 is certainly not an optimal index, however it's a case study in showing how selecting the "top" companies for some reasonable definition of "top" will earn a return approx. equal to the market (represented by S&P500) no matter the strategy (in this case price-weighting instead of mkt cap weighting can be considered a strategy).

The reason it's cited so widely is that there's a lot of historical data on the Dow 30, whereas every other index is less reported.

[1] Yahoo Finance comparison of Dow 30 vs. S&P500 chart [http://finance.yahoo.com/chart/%5EDJI#eyJjb21wYXJpc29ucyI6Il...](http://finance.yahoo.com/chart/%5EDJI#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%3D)

[2] Dow 30 index is built and maintained by a subsidiary of News Corp. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_Dow_Jones_Indices](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26P_Dow_Jones_Indices).

[3] [http://www.etf.com/etf-education-center/21038-how-to-run- an-...](http://www.etf.com/etf-education-center/21038-how-to-run-an-index- fund-full-replication-vs-optimization.html)

[4] [http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/washsalerule.asp](http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/washsalerule.asp)

<comment><USER22> That isn't how the robo-advisors actually implement tax-loss harvesting. They just buy slightly different index funds.[0]

E.g., VTI vs SCHB. VTI tracks the "CRSP US Total Market" index, while SCHB tracks the "DJ Broad US Market" index (note, this is not the same thing as the DJIA). Those indices are not comprised of disjoint subsets of the total stock market.

Additionally, large index funds have enough capital to just buy all of the components (100s-1000s) without sampling. Thirty funds doesn't really do it justice. It can also miss out on big winners, which is where lots of growth comes from.[1]

[0]: [https://research.wealthfront.com/whitepapers/tax-loss- harves...](https://research.wealthfront.com/whitepapers/tax-loss-harvesting/) [1]: [http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/900/15st.htm](http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/900/15st.htm)

<comment><USER23> I believe this is not allowed by the IRS because ETFs tracking similar indices would be considered 'substantially identical', but I'm not sure [1]. If it is allowed, then you're right - this would be the most efficient way to implement tax loss harvesting.

      A wash sale occurs when you sell or trade stock or securities at a loss and within 30 days before or after the sale you:
     1. Buy substantially identical stock or securities,
     2. Acquire substantially identical stock or securities in a fully taxable trade,

     3. Acquire a contract or option to buy substantially identical stock or securities, or

     4. Acquire substantially identical stock for your individual retirement account (IRA) or Roth IRA.

[1] [https://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#en_US_2016_p...](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p550/ch04.html#en_US_2016_publink100010601)

<comment><USER22> Different indices are not substantially identical.

Different ETFs tracking the _same index_ (e.g., SWPPX and VOO) are likely to be determined substantially identical. (I don't know that the IRS issued guidance on this yet.)

Yes, they choose different indices precisely because of wash sale rules.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It is nice to see someone dig deeply into what the numbers actually mean, but it is surprising to see them come away with the wrong conclusions.

The DOW isn't useless, look at this graph : [https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chfdeh=0&chdet=149177...](https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chfdeh=0&chdet=1491778123622&chddm=502044&cmpto=INDEXDJX:.DJI;INDEXSP:.INX;INDEXNASDAQ:.IXIC&cmptdms=0;0;0&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI,INDEXSP:.INX,INDEXNASDAQ:.IXIC&ntsp=0&ei=HbrqWMm9N8TxjAHv6bvIDg) which is a comparison of the DOW, S&P and NASDAQ indices. Note how closely the DOW and S&P 500 track each other? If the DOW was 'useless' as the author surmises, and the S&P 500 is 'better' then why are they so closely correlated?

The answer is of course that membership in the DOW (and S&P 500) changes over time. The selection of companies and their weighting is done by people who look at the impact a particular company has and how its stock price 'leads' or 'trails' the market. You pick 30 of those and they become your 'signal' for the health of the market.

<comment><USER25> For short distances, the pre-Newtonian "ball flies straight and then drops vertically when it runs out of oomph" math approximates Newton. It's close enough, except when it matters. Unlike Einstein, those conditions arise regularly. It's as easy to calculate Newton as its predecessors. The predecessor is useless.

The Dow and S&P 500 are as easy to access. (They're similarly intensive, with a computer, to calculate.) When they diverge, the S&P tells one more. (The Dow only talks to industry, for which the relevant SPDR is better.)

It's uselsss. (We loved it on the trading floor, though. Retail would buy based on the Dow. Free profits.)

<comment><USER24>
       > It's uselsss. (We loved it on the trading floor,
       > though. Retail would buy based on the Dow. Free
       > profits.)

This is almost like the Yogi-ism "Nobody goes there any more, its too crowded." Because in the same sentence you say "its useless" and "it gives you free profits" (which is useful), much like "nobody goes there" and "its too crowded" (hence lots of people _do_ go there).

I don't disagree with the assertion that as a _trading signal_ it is useless, there is much better information around where the market is going right now, or perhaps in the short term future. But as an _investing signal_ it serves the purpose well, with fewer stocks than the S&P 500.

My parents for example received an inheritance and wanted to _invest_ it, so I suggested an S&P 500 ETF fund. Doesn't cost anything for them to sit on it and when they hear the radio say "The S&P is up 10% for the year so far" they know that their investments are also up about 10% for the year. For a while I had a DOW basket, actually holding shares in the 30 companies in the index. When the DOW hit an all time high I knew my basket of stocks was worth more (as a group) than they had been in the past.

Changes in the index did not cause my parents to make trades, instead they just reflected changes in value of that portion of our investment portfolio. And for that it continues to be useful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> S&P 500 and the Dow are highly correlated (95% over the past 50 years) and so as an overall temperature of the market it's typically sufficient.

</comment><comment><USER27> Yup. Completely useless index.

</comment><comment><USER28> Not sure how this got to the front page. This is not new information or even that interesting.

Literally, hundreds of articles about this exact same thing

[https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&e...](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=dow+jones+price+weighted)

another brand new site up-voted to the font page...created in 2017 and only 8 very sparse articles

erikrood.com</comment>


Ask HN: How are you hosting email at your domain name? - <AUTHOR>

This could be your personal professional email (i.e. email@example.com) or your company's email (i.e. email@example.com). I am only interested in web-based or self-hosted Linux solutions (so that rules out Microsoft Exchange).
I've considered hosting with Google Apps. I've seen a number of notable hackers go that route. But I'm not sure I want to give up that much privacy and control.  I've searched for some self-hosting Linux solutions (free or paid), and I wasn't impressed with the results I found.
Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> Google apps or a local server like Postfix relaying outgoing email through a service such as AuthSMTP. Deliverability is a PITA otherwise. You have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get email providers to accept your email if using a dedicated solution (including VPS) and if it's a shared server then you are at the mercy of other users who could be spamming people from the same IP and get it blacklisted.

<comment><USER3> I have my e-mail hosted on a prgmr.com VPS. How do I check for deliverability issues? (I have noticed none.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Focused email service providers like Fastmail.fm (just acquired by Opera, which is directing would be new customers of Opera Premium? Email to it) are one good solution.

If you want good spam and virus scanning protection you probably want to outsource it in one way or another.

</comment><comment><USER5> Exim for SMTP, Courier for POP3 and/or IMAP, and SquirrelMail or RoundCube for the web front-end - all available for Linux. It's good enough for cPanel, so it's good enough for me.

Edit: Incidentally, it should be noted that _all_ email is "web-based" these days...

<comment><AUTHOR> Re: web-based

Yeah, I guess I meant 3rd-party-hosted.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I use postfix for SMTP and dovecote for IMAP. All free software. There's a million guides for setting it up and for fixing issues. There's also a million different ways to tweak it to do anything you want.

</comment><comment><USER7> pair.com has worked very well for me, for ten years or so. It's freebsd shared hosting, but if you're willing to consider gapps this is reasonable too. Includes two or three web interfaces, as well as imap.

</comment><comment><USER8> Our website runs on heroku so we use rackspace hosted email. I recommend it

<comment><USER9> I use rackspace hosted email as well. Very happy with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> go with Google Apps: easy to install , Free and featured :)

<comment><USER11> I have a couple of domains at Google Apps, which works really well. I also have a couple of domains at my local ISP (also my colocation facility).</comment></comment>


SF Muni/Nextbus failure due to being 4 years behind in upgrading from 2G to 3G - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfexaminer.com/inside-muni-nextbus-meltdown-emails-reveal-averted-crisis/ <comment><USER2> I have spoken to SFMTA staff about this as well.

There are a few more details, mostly that this whole problem started when the agency tried to save $1M in their IT budget.

This is what happens when an org focuses on giving away free rides instead of running their business. Free rides for youth and seniors, formally subsidized by Google, cut into budgets like this that impact the entire system. IIRC it is a $10M+ budget item.

I would say paying the $1M for the upgrades up front would have been a better insurance policy; having NB down for 6-8 weeks is not only embarrassing but unacceptable.

The real time arrival system is out for bid now. One of the requirements is to allow riders to know how full the next vehicle is(!).

<comment><AUTHOR> SFMTA needs to have someone come in and roust the people that did this. I mean, I'm frankly amazed 2G has worked in the last 4-5 years much less since 2012. Upgrading to a 3G modem which is likely already obsolete is kinda ridiculous.

<comment><USER2> Also consider that, since this was an emergency fix that applied to vehicles, every single one of the 600+ fleet has to be retrofitted. That's a massive amount of rush labor and gear.</comment></comment></comment>


$0 revenue, 2 years and $106,000 in spent expenses later - <AUTHOR> https://www.indiehackers.com/post/4497419ee0 <comment><USER2> "Potential users" will draw all kinds of lines and demand plenty of features that your eventual paying customers won't care less about.

Ensuring product/market fit is critical for turning a profit, OP needs to get paying clients use their tools and have their usage pattern and implicit needs drive further development.

</comment><comment><USER3> It'll be very helpful to hear what steps did you take before building your product. Did you try to reach out potential users with just the idea to discuss it? Also did you check other similar tools, what people like and dislike about it? Do your potential users have enough pain with current tools (or lack of them) to consider paying for your project?</comment>


Detecting a crime before it happens - <AUTHOR> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-pre-terror-20100528,0,7900079.story

<comment><USER2> Darn, I thought this was going to be about a woman dropped in water, connected to sensors and drugged, who would dream about pre-crime. Man, that would make a great movie, wouldn't it?</comment>


A Raspberry Pi tutorial for those who don't know what to do with it - <AUTHOR> http://naich.net/wordpress/?p=435

<comment><AUTHOR> I should stress that this is designed to be a way of getting people interested in using it, rather than a definitive guide that is accurate in any way.

<comment><USER2> This definitely got me interested in pull my Pi out of the box it's been sitting in for months. Thanks!</comment></comment>


Can we decentralize the Web? - <AUTHOR> https://www.slashdot.org/story/344236 <comment><USER2> Could you decentralize Slashdot?

Really, forums or anything with user-generated content/comments seem almost impossible to decentralize; it's difficult to do server-side _anything_ when you don't have any servers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Decentralization also includes federation, where you have dispersed, but individually independent servers cooperating to serve an application.

The ActivityPub specification is an example. Mastodon is based on this, and Pleroma. Because it is spec-based there are less walled gardens / vendor lock- in. With your Mastodon account, for instance you can comment on PeerTube (federated YouTube alternative) videos. There are discussions and project on creating e.g. Medium, Reddit, etc. alternatives. I guess SlashDot functionality is also very possible to recreate in federated fashion.</comment></comment>


Hims copying Ro line for line in the rising ED space - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@zreitano/on-behalf-of-hims-patients-thank-you-for-copying-ro-aba99193d231 <comment><USER2> Interesting way of calling someone out for a pretty blatant frontend copy/paste job.</comment>


The physics of life - <AUTHOR> http://www.nature.com/news/the-physics-of-life-1.19105 <comment><USER2> Wow, you can actually follow (some of?) the citations in this article and read them. Nature posts this friendly little banner: "Online access to this article has been provided by the nature.com content sharing initiative." Whatever that means.

</comment><comment><USER3> Neat stuff! I'm also really curious to see where exploring active materials through the lens of computation and computer science might lead.

</comment><comment><USER4> Time to first 'active matter' inspired stock market simulation and HFT tool: 3...2...1...

</comment><comment><USER5> "A half-life often describes the decay of discrete entities, such as radioactive atoms. In that case, it does not work to use the definition "half- life is the time required for exactly half of the entities to decay". For example, if there is just one radioactive atom with a half-life of 1 second, there will not be "half of an atom" left after 1 second. There will be either zero atoms left or one atom left, depending on whether or not the atom happens to decay.

Instead, the half-life is defined in terms of probability. It is the time when the expected value of the number of entities that have decayed is equal to half the original number. For example, one can start with a single radioactive atom, wait its half-life, and measure whether or not it decays in that period of time. Perhaps it will and perhaps it will not. But if this experiment is repeated again and again, it will be seen that - on average - it decays within the half-life 50% of the time."</comment>


CSS Only 3D Macbook Air Animation - <AUTHOR> http://codepen.io/neoberg/pen/istyp/

<comment><USER2> These are cool, but completely impractical for anything other than your resume, and even that might be doubtful.

Is this useful for anything other than learning how to do different kinds of css3 transforms and making you want to buy a macbook?

<comment><USER3> Showing people online cool things that can be done with CSS3 transforms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Very impressive. Work such as this show a mastery of CSS that few possess.

</comment><comment><USER5> Any explanation of how is this done? Any specific tools used?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, all is hand-made :)

<comment><USER5> Impressive. How long did it take you

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you. about 3-4 hours :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Impressive! Restores my believe in CSS animations.

</comment><comment><USER7> Most amazing CSS only thing I have ever seen

</comment><comment><USER8> FYI, requires cookies.

<comment><AUTHOR> For what?

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Awesome!</comment>


Ask HN: Python for web development. What next? - <AUTHOR>

I have taken CS classes about 10 y ago during high school. I have now decided to learn Python.
I am taking the Coursera Programming Fundamentals(very basic), MITx - Introduction to Computer Science and Programming and I also did the Google Academy Python class.
I am learning Python mainly for web developement and maybe some machine learning in the future.
Do you have any suggestions for more material(I prefer video to books but any would do) to study, tailored to web development? Am I too early in the learning process to jump on a web framework and if not what resources should I look at?
If you are asking why Python and not Ruby is because Python has something Ruby doesn't: Nick Parlante as a teacher :)
Nick if you are reading this or anyone can pass it to him it, would be awesome to have you as a Python mentor.
Of course I would highly appreciate any help from any skilled Python developer willing to help me or mentor me.
Thanks, Adrian <comment><USER2> Jump on a framework (Django). There's plenty of videos out there, but really the documentation / demo app is pretty nice.

Warning: learning a framework is a lot like learning a language. You have to just memorize a lot of syntax and/or "names" of predefined functions. Where to put stuff, how to do x or y.

It's fun, though. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> Adrian, I am also following the same path as you have mentioned. I am currently enrolled in MITx - 6.00x online course and I too would like to use Python for web development. If you are looking for more meaningful material on Python I would suggest visiting the (<http://www.realpython.com/>) website and download the e-book ($14). This book is full of real time python usage and it does cover web-development as well. Not sure whether you've heard about it or not but the idea of RealPython was kinda hit on Kickstarter few months back.

It looks like our goal is somewhat similar and if you want to discuss more about learning Python then feel free to drop me an email (see email id in profile).

Good Luck learning Python.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did not hear about realpython so thanks for the link.

The email is missing from your profile(only the about me field is public). I have added my email in my profile so you can contact me.

<comment><USER3> Will do. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Assuming you know web stuff already (HTML, CSS, maybe some JS), you could start working with something like Django or Flask. Django has a lot of stuff built in, where Flask is on the other end of the spectrum. If you don't know at least the basics of HTML and CSS you should check out the comment by carlsednaoui[0].

The Machine Learning uses are pretty interesting too. I'd be curious to see what libraries are recommended for that. PyBrain, maybe?

0: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4668944>

<comment><AUTHOR> I know html, css and some javascript.

So what are the pros and cons of starting Django or Flask? Maybe I should make this as a separate HN question.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The Udacity CS253 course is geared towards making web applications, was taught by Steve Huffman, co-founder of Reddit - <http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/cs253/>

Other than that, pick a web framework and start going through the examples in the documentation.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion - looks like what I am after and I can probably jump on a web framework after I do this one. I only knew about Udacity this one: [http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/cs101/CourseRev/apr20...](http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/cs101/CourseRev/apr2012) and I wanted to skip it as being another introductory course.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> hey adrianmn, have you thought about doing some front end stuff (since you want to learn web dev)?

In any case, here are couple resources I'd recommend:

<http://www.udacity.com/overview/Course/cs262/>

[http://channel9.msdn.com/Series/Javascript-Fundamentals- Deve...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Series/Javascript-Fundamentals-Development- for-Absolute-Beginners)

<http://learn.appendto.com/lessons>

You can find out more at <http://www.coursebacon.com/> (disclaimer: this is a side project of mine)

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER7> start with a python micro-framework. I highly recommend flask (<http://flask.pocoo.org>). Go through their exercise of creating a simple blog. Then start looking at their extensions which are also awesome.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have seen this advice a lot while I googled for python web frameworks. Wouldn't be more complicated for someone new to frameworks to learn Flask as is not an all in one and I will have to learn few more things: Werkzeug, Jinja 2 ...?

<comment><USER7> For me, that actually worked better. If you start with a fully loaded framework such as Django (even though it is an awesome framework too), I found it difficult to fully understand whats going on in the background. For example, I personally don't like all batteries and prefer to only have the core web functions out of the box. Flask works for me because it just about gives me enough and not much or too less. I don't want to necessarily build my own WSGI layer but I do want control over how I create/save my user details.

Also you don;'t really need to learn Jinja etc. separately. Flask does enough to get you started. For example, I can easily build routing using app.route() decorator in flask which in the back is using Werkjeug. I honestly don't know much about werkjeug itself (yet) but that did not stop me from building a fully functional web app. Of course, if you really want to get in the details, you learn the individual libraries that gives you flexibility to build a real work production app. YMMV

<comment><AUTHOR> Did you find any good videos about Flask while learning? I see in your profile that you are/were also in the learning process. Would you like to connect on Skype or via email?

<comment><USER7> sure I can give you some pointers. My contact info is in my profile (just updated)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Want a cheap room in Phoenix? Apple cancels competing event - <AUTHOR> http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/19/want-a-cheap-room-in-phoenix-apple-cancels-competing-event/

<comment><USER2> Why do I doubt that Apple corporate told the resort about the tablet release?</comment>


Monero, the Drug Dealer's Cryptocurrency of Choice, Is on Fire - <AUTHOR> https://www.wired.com/2017/01/monero-drug-dealers-cryptocurrency-choice-fire <comment><USER2> What's interesting is blockchain has seemingly gone mainstream: at least there are plenty of "fincen" companies investing in block chain technology. So there will have to be some very carefully written legislature if Congress for example wants to block anonymous crypto currencies while still allowing related tech.</comment>


Ignite Takes $5 Million Series C To Build World Of Warcraft For Car Racing - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/07/ignite-takes-5-million-series-c-to-build-world-of-warcraft-for-car-racing/

<comment><USER2> I wonder what will be iRacing's answer.</comment>


Fixing a Bug in Our Account Activity API - <AUTHOR> https://help.twitter.com/en/account-activity-api <comment><USER2> I'm surprised it went for quite awhile not being discovered.</comment>


Rate my startup: GroupFlier.com - <AUTHOR>

GroupFlier.com is a super simple group email hub. The goal is to make it trivially simple to setup a group email address for a family, sports team, community group etc.
The initial iteration competes with google/yahoo groups. The hope is that it is easier and faster to use. If it gains traction we would add a freemium option for archiving, searching, branding, moderation etc.
Try it out at www.groupflier.com and let me know what you think. Thanks! <comment><USER2> I'd have the information in about us displayed as standard and perhaps mention your stance on user data privacy \- do you re-sell email addresses, \- can other group members see the email addresses etc \- what happens if a group member wants out of the list

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks we will add that. In answer to your questions.

No we don't re-sell or do anything with the email addresses.

As a group member you can see a list of the other members and remove yourself from the group.</comment></comment>


Estimate the cost of a Web, iOS or Android app - <AUTHOR> http://estimatemyapp.com <comment><USER2> This seems to me to be estimating the cost to get from a fixed spec to "works on my machine (or simulator)" rather than the total cost to go from an idea to shipped product with non-technical stakeholders (whom your estimator is targeting), a diverse product team, changing understanding of the target, i.e., all the bits that investors struggle to understand seem to be omitted or minimized.

I've found in many years of building apps for clients, the easy part is forecasting simple programming costs. The hard part is helping folks understand time spent keying in code is only a small part of shipping successful software--and one of the more predictable ones. So, the cynic in me reacts with: "great, another over-simplification that instills more of those unreal expectations that so often cause failure."

Minor points worth reiterating from others:

* The rates are off for areas other than yours (how about making rates/regions an option?). And, I'd make it much clearer that the viewer is likely looking at offshore outsourcing pricing as that is a very, shall we say, unique approach to new product development.

* "Man" hours is a small, visual irritant due to the problematic gender relations and inequities in our field at the moment.

<comment><USER3> "Man hours" is not a visual irritant. It is not saying that only men can do work. It is not a statement on gender. It is the most common and easiest to understand way to express an idea. You are being overly pedantic and rabble- rousing for no good reason.

<comment><USER2> No. I'm making a pedantic (clearly) _suggestion_ about a _small_ visual irritant for the very good reason that because of the (hopefully) temporarily toxic environment in our field, some other human beings I care about might feel a bit put out by the choice of word A over word B. Words or humans? A different word could have been chosen at zero cost and made someone else feel better or less bad; so I'll suggest that door thank you--no it doesn't matter if those put out are being rational, expressing logic compilable by GCC, or otherwise fit with anyone else's ideas about what is proper and right, because it cost nothing to do.

I dislike thinking about stuff like this. It's a waste of time and a distraction from things that truly matter, e.g., Pluto! But, a bunch of jerks already set the stage and the tune and it behooves those of us wanting to profit on that stage to be aware.

If you have data or citations to back up the "most common and easiest to understand" please share, I'm always interested in seeing data. Here's what I have to offer, for what it's worth:

[https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=man- hour&year_...](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=man- hour&year_start=1915&year_end=2015)

<comment><USER4> > I'm making a pedantic (clearly) suggestion about a small visual irritant for > the very good reason that because of the (hopefully) temporarily toxic > environment in our field, some other human beings I care about might feel a > bit put out by the choice of word A over word B.

The problem is that an ugly little debate exists outside of this thread. You don't actually get to drag in small pieces of pedantry like that in isolation.

So, on the topic of this debate:

There are serious real problems in the world and in the software industry with people who are jerks, and (in particular, topically) unwelcoming and offensive to women. This is a very bad thing. And there are people who wish to fix this by changing the language we use. That's a legitimate position to propose and advance.

It's also a legitimate position to object to. But there are those come into the discussion wielding the hammer of Moral Authority, and often they suggest that if you _fail to join the crusade_ to change a word like "man-hours" then you're an ignorant bigot riding high on all your privilege (you can already find some posts on this thread suggesting ideas from this group). Really, it isn't _strictly_ about treating women decently, it's about demanding your subscription to and endorsement of a particular worldview and series of political prescriptions... it's about securing _power_ and finding ways to stifle your opponents and detractors.

A POX ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES.

<comment><USER5> I think even your strawmen have strawmen.

<comment><USER4> 100%, and that's what you get condensing a minor culture war into a paragraph or two on the Internet :P

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Biggest issue I have is that for anyone who uses this calculator, they will always see their app as "small" when it's really medium or large. Non- technical project stake holders will never grasp the depth of what they want built.

Second big issue is that there really isn't a good way in this calculator to estimate/account for proper testing and subsequently, time spent when a client changes their mind on a feature and wants to redesign/re-work.

<comment><USER7> I wonder if they could add a "weight" to each feature and then automatically determine the application size summarizing all the weights.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Love the concept not sure the math works out:

Maxed out iOS app shows:

35 person-days UI/UX + 162 person-days dev = $88,650

$88,650 / (35 person-days + 162 person-days) / 8 hr/day = $56.25/hr per person average cost.

Assuming the labor estimate is correct, if anyone knows of iOS developers skilled enough to pull that off for 56.25/hr fully-loaded labor costs I'd like to meet them. (e.g. who is coordinating the work and working with the client on evolving specs/feedback)

<comment><AUTHOR> We are based in Bangkok :-)

<comment><USER8> I understand and I know it's just an estimating tool but are you saying I can hire your team to deliver a gold-plated does everything iOS app with geolocation, health and sensor inputs, a top-notice design, etc including the detailed functional requirements (we all know what clients think is a complete specification), tested and delivered in the app store for 1,576hrs of billable work at $56/h total cost to me including any overhead you may have (like your market street sf office)?

<comment><AUTHOR> Our hourly works out slightly more than this, but yes the economics work because of the geo-arbitrage.

We are actually a 6 year old western company based in Bangkok. We have worked with many big name startups very successfully.

<comment><USER9> Any names to mention checked your site and didn't see much.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Holy sh... I have to say, I am very bad at making estimates. I don't work freelance but it happened that I had to make some projects for people. I tried to estimate the cost of some applications that I made/make in my spare time and the average is way way way higher than I would have ever charged anyone... I need to reconsider my prices...

Which is amazing to be honest, making prices I really hard for me and a tool like this can be an amazing opportunity to find my value. Thanks

<comment><USER11> Do you think the results from this tool are HIGH? I went through a couple different apps I know and thought the estimate provided by the page needed to be multiplied by 3-5.

The default rates are $56 an hour. For Android/iOS developers, I know a dozen people making $100-200 an hour.

It's a great tool (and note you can actually adjust your price at the bottom), but I would consider all of the quotes around time & rate as the low end.

<comment><USER12> duiker's comments were more along the lines of how he's been underquoting.

Extremely common among early (or occasional) SWE freelancers IME, myself included.

IME, you can get to a point where you tally everything up and it comes to $65K, and then you start thinking, well this would be a fun side gig, and I have some free time I otherwise waste, and I sure could buy something cool with even $25K (after tax), and some of my estimates might be a little on the fat side, and this is a buddy (or isn't well funded, or both), and coding is fun enough that I sometimes do it for free anyhow, so I'll bid $45K.

And you've not accounted for the inevitable yak shaves, scope creep items, etc, but you got the work for $30K less than you should/could have.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> So having done cost estimation before, this is horrible. About all it would be good for is the initial swag at brochure ware. Generally speaking cost estimates should never be a fixed point and should be done in a range, with assumptions (that when violated) would allow the cost numbers to change. In addition, there's no measurement of complexity through requirements. Basically all these estimators are useful for only the simplest software projects with extremely limited requirements and scope. The cost of the software is a function of the known requirements which are carefully enumerated during costing to generate some sort of complexity model. (For example, function point analysis). That's fed into a cost model that translates that complexity model into a dollar range. That interval is then used to generate a final, contractual, number. But notice all the work that went into that estimate. What's more is that the estimate is refined during the work such that new data is incorporated into the complexity model, allowing changes in scope or requirements to be re-priced.

<comment><AUTHOR> To be clear, this does not replace an official estimate (we also do not like fixed estimates and prefer agile pricing). What it does give though is _ballpark_ ideas for people with no information at all. Oozou is a 6 year old agency, we understand the problem deeply but wanted to give people something to get started without full blown proposals, RFP's etc

<comment><USER13> I view it as dangerous because it spits out a definitive answer without clear explanation of the model used to generate the estimate. If you look at other cost estimation tools (even closed source tools) will explain the model and assumptions used to generate the estimate. You can then make the determination if the model and assumptions apply to you.

It also doesn't indicate the kind of application (which is probably a largely stand-alone application). You can't stop some clients from going on to these sites and looking up a cost and not understanding what goes into an estimate. What would be even worse, in my mind, is to have other developers use a tool like this to generate a cost and then fail because they grossly underestimate complexity.

<comment><USER14> It does explain the model - each feature is given a certain number of developer days that are billed out at $450/day. It's all broken down if you click "show calculations".

I personally think their model is pretty shitty, because if you build an app as a checklist of features you'll end up with something users won't want to use, and if you polish all the rough edges and make sure everything integrates well together, you will spend a lot more time on integrations than on implementing the features. (My rule of thumb - across many projects - is that when a project is feature-complete, it is usually between 40-50% shippable. When it ships, it is about 50% "done", where "done" means that all the initial development tasks required to make it stable and useful to users are complete. When it's "done", it's consumed roughly 10% of the calendar time and 50% of the developer time that will ultimately be invested in the project.)

But you can at least judge the model they're using for yourself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is a pretty solid resource for freelance devs to mid-sized digital agencies. It falls short for more complicated applications that require custom architecture, a consultation piece, etc.

I think a lot of agencies/shops could benefit by creating a version of this that fits their pricing model based on previous projects -- Not as a hard estimate, but as a ballpark figure.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep, we aimed for rough and simple. Really to give indicative ideas. Actually surprisingly hard for non-tech people to find this information.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> There are so many websites that do the same.

[http://www.kinvey.com/app-cost-estimator](http://www.kinvey.com/app-cost- estimator)

[https://www.otreva.com/calculator/](https://www.otreva.com/calculator/)

[http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com](http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com)

<comment><USER17> [http://perfectedtech.com/calculator/](http://perfectedtech.com/calculator/)

<comment><USER18> That certainly looks like it was inspired by mine: [https://www.andreasley.ch/en/costcalculator/](https://www.andreasley.ch/en/costcalculator/)

I take that as a compliment. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Not to detract from the tool but ... $56/hour default? That's low for any competent development, let alone iOS.

<comment><USER20> That's arguably low in the valley. Everywhere else, it's on the high side.

<comment><USER21> It's low (too low) everywhere in the US.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Doesn't work.

XMLHttpRequest cannot load [https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list](https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list). No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource. Origin '[https://estimatemyapp.com'](https://estimatemyapp.com') is therefore not allowed access.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ouch! sorry about that, which browser/OS are you on if you don't mind me asking?

<comment><USER23> Same here, Mac OS 10.10.3 and Firefox 39. But also doesn't work in Chrome (newest).

Good idea though! :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> This is great. I can finally send people here when they think getting a site up can be paid for with a case of beer.

<comment><USER25> Hey man I got a great app idea I am gonna let you in on. First, I need you to sign this NDA. I'll buy you lunch and tell you about. When this thing hits big, there could be a job in it for you. But for now, if you build the app I'll give you 5% of the company. When we sell this puppy, you're gonna be rich dude!!

<comment><USER26> Oh wait....you think that my advertising based business model is completely impossible and consider this the worst idea you have ever heard?? Well, you're clearly not very competent...:)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I hope none of my future clients come to me with a reference to this app for cost estimation. This estimation is vague and garbage. Good effort though.

</comment><comment><USER28> They must be trying to undercut everyone else, because those prices are way too low. I wonder how many times they go over these budgets themselves.

</comment><comment><USER29> I don't buy that Android is less than iOS for development, unless it's reflecting some shared work.

<comment><USER6> Second this. Done over 140 mobile apps, and never found Android projects to fall below iOS with time cost.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Lets see... web app... small... click here... click there... one more click... $ 14.000 I don't know what I've been doing the last 25 years but now I know that I need the next 7 years to be a millionaire. Thank you!

</comment><comment><USER31> Yep, it costs $38,000 to make a Google.

Except you won't have the search algorithm, machine learning algorithms, and Hadoop stuff. But at least you'll just have a nice polished UI, with integration with Facebook, Twitter and Google+!

</comment><comment><USER32> Curiously the page does not work on iPad in built-in HN browser. Anyway, its priceless since will give exact answer to most of those wanting "my own branded messenger, and I only have €500 for this".

</comment><comment><USER33> We have a similar concept, with a far less fancy estimator. [http://www.decemberlabs.com/appEstimator.html](http://www.decemberlabs.com/appEstimator.html) I think these estimators are good at helping non savvy potential customers tu understand the actual costs of making an app.

</comment><comment><USER34> What I like about this is it introduces the concepts that can impact mobile app development to a crowd that has no way to know where one feature ends and another starts. If it's meant to be a conversation starter, I bet it might for non-experts.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> By popular request, 'man days' has now been banished from the site :-)

In our defence: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man- hour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-hour)

</comment><comment><USER35> This is clever but it definitely needs to be backed by real data and adjusted in the future. This would be a great use case for all the data that's been collected for research into programmer productivity!

</comment><comment><USER36> Would love to see examples of their work, showing how that translates into the options in the estimation tool.

i.e. What is their definition of "polished"?

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://slimwiki.com](https://slimwiki.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Site with Access-Control-Allow-Origin header error:

XMLHttpRequest cannot load [https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list](https://d3h99m5mv5zvgz.cloudfront.net/api/v1/features/list). No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource. Origin '[https://estimatemyapp.com'](https://estimatemyapp.com') is therefore not allowed access.

<comment><USER38> same for me, Mac OS 10.10.3 with FirefoxDeveloperEdition, but also with Safari

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Most sites do it already:

[http://www.compesis.com/](http://www.compesis.com/)

</comment><comment><USER40> So, if we go off the market rates for a business consultant skilled at developing a web application ($1k to $2k per day per consultant), and plug in the numbers here:

35 Man Days UX/UI Design -> probably $35k to $70k

178 Man Days Development -> $178k to $356k

The total cost is: $208k to $416k

The calculator's estimate: $95,850

So the actual cost is going to be anywhere from 2x to 5x higher than what this projects.

<comment><AUTHOR> We are based in Bangkok. btw you can plug your own rates in at the bottom "Show Details"

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I'm against this website.

</comment><comment><USER42> really doesn't fit my style of apps at all. but i can see how this might be useful for cookie cutter style work...

</comment><comment><USER43> Is there any advantage over an excel sheet?

</comment><comment><USER44> Why the hell don't the buttons work on mobile safari?

<comment><AUTHOR> Seem ok here on mobile safari?

<comment><USER44> Using an iPad here

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I chose an iOS app with every option, and then added an Android app with every option. The price doubled. I guess that means Oozou will charge you twice for designing or coding assets that'll be reused between platforms.

<comment><USER46> You can't straight up share most things between platforms. You have to adjust layouts and resources into the sizes and formats dictated by the platforms.

<comment><USER45> I wasn't suggesting the price should be the same for developing both, just that it isn't double. You can share design assets, logic, algorithms, etc. For a complex app that stuff is actually what takes most of the time - but you only have to do it once regardless of how many platforms you end up deploying to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> There are some outrageous time estimates in this. 7 days to create an auth system with the big 3 social integrations? 6 days for private messaging? 2 days to dump a prefab social sharing blob in your template?! I'd do all of that in a morning.

I'd just be careful if you're considering using this to quote your jobs. If somebody working for me quoted these sorts of numbers, I'd fire them on the spot. I wouldn't even give them a second chance. It would clearly demonstrate you didn't know what you were talking about.

<comment><USER48> You could do it all in a morning if you didn't do any of the following:

\- Create and implement a high fidelity design.

\- Include the project-specific requirements that every feature has... the auth system needs to work via ajax, connect with a legacy db, and include animated transitions. Private messaging needs responsive design and realtime updates. Etc. etc. etc.

\- Deal with scope creep, clarifications of the specs, and hours of related discussions.

\- Write automated tests.

\- Do live QA.

\- Fix inevitable bugs, browser and device inconsistencies, ux problems, etc. etc. etc.

\- System administration and deployment.

\- Load testing, caching, performance tuning.

If a client tried to tell me I should be able to do all this in a morning, I'd fire THEM on the spot.

<comment><USER47> You're not reading what I said. The design is accounted for elsewhere in the calculations (that's actually a bit closer to the mark) and that includes many of the things you're talking about above.

My "morning", is literally plugging django-social-auth, a custom User Model, a private messaging Model and few views to make it all work.

I'll grant you that testing might eat up the afternoon, but these are all solved problems that ship in libraries, many of which include their own tests.

Perhaps the people downvoting need to change how they build stuff.

<comment><USER48> The result of your single morning would be a clunky ux that no one wants to use (or pay for). No one's saying you can't get a good start on the data model and basic skeleton in a single morning, but only someone who's never produced working, polished software would contend a finished and tested feature of any significant complexity at all could be truly finished in a morning.

The people downvoting you live in reality...</comment></comment></comment></comment>


DigitalOcean to begin charging for Snapshots - <AUTHOR> https://www.digitalocean.com/community/questions/how-much-does-snapshot-costs <comment><AUTHOR> A screen grab of the notification email sent out can be seen here[0].

There seems to be no official announcement on the blog so the link here could be updated when that is released.

[0] [https://i.imgur.com/POT1FjV.png](https://i.imgur.com/POT1FjV.png)

</comment><comment><USER2> Haven't they always been charging for snapshots? My understanding is that this is a change to pricing, not introduction of charges.

I seem to remember something like and additional $1 per month on the smallest VM.

<comment><AUTHOR> They've charged for backups before but not snapshots.</comment></comment>


Organizations and Markets (1991) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/mb65/mst-ir/documents/simon-1991.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Herb Simon is perhaps better known in tech circles for his role in artificial intelligence, but he had some interesting writings on economics and organizational theory as well.</comment>