How Canada became an education superpower - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40708421 <comment><USER2> > Migrants coming to Canada, many from countries such as China, India and > Pakistan, are often relatively well-educated and ambitious to see their > children get into professional careers.

> Prof Jerrim says these families have an immigrant "hunger" to succeed, and > their high expectations are likely to boost school results for their > children.

Speaking from personal experience as a native Canadian, this can also motivate non-immigrant children to work harder. When half of your peers have an immigrant's work ethic it can be a real positive influence.

Disclaimer: this is an anecdote, my personal experience may not generalize, etc.

<comment><USER3> Your lack of prejudice is really admirable.

<comment><USER4> What else was he supposed to do?

"These immigrants, coming over here, getting better grades than the rest of us"?

That just becomes an admission of stupidity.

<comment><USER3> "These immigrants come and use the facilities we deserve to use".

Common is sense is not common.

Edit: Just to be clear, my first comment was really a compliment. No sarcasm intended.

<comment><USER5> > "These immigrants come and use the facilities we deserve to use".

Speaking from the perspective of an immigrant with tons of immigrant friends and whose friends around the world tend to be travelers by nature, I have noticed a lot of commonality in migrants and travelers that locals would do well to mirror if they want to succeed:

More often than not, if the immigrants didn't use the facilities, they would go unused and close and people would lose jobs, hurting the economy. Nobody would benefit from this. Indeed, frequently immigrants don't even use the facilities that you as locals are afforded. We're not allowed to claim welfare, we work hard, we pay taxes, we create jobs, we make friends, we integrate, we are neighbours, we laugh, we joke, we add richness to your lives just as you do with ours.

There is a pervasive mentality that we come over and hog your resources and take your jobs. Immigrants don't come and take anything, they come and do whatever it takes to succeed. They do the shit jobs that nobody else wants while they endlessly scour the economy for opportunities to succeed. If locals had that same hunger, they wouldn't be blaming their lot in life on external forces and they too would be successful.

Immigrants by and large are immigrants because they took charge of their situation and moved to where they can get a better life. Residents who relocate for work have the same take charge attitude, going where they can make a difference and leveraging opportunity.

People that complain about "people coming and doing or using what we deserve to use" by and large want opportunities handed to them, and when they're not blame the world around them for that.

People with a strong external locus of control tend to blame others for their problems in life. People with a strong internal locus of control tend to just get on with leveraging the opportunities they find. They are in charge of their own destiny instead of allowing their destiny to be controlled by others.

If I were to make a broad sweeping statement, which we all know are flawed for many reasons, but I will make it anyway:

Immigrants tend to have a strong internal locus of control.

People complaining about immigrants tend to have a strong external locus of control.

If you change your locus of control and be in charge of your own destiny, you'll care far less about immigrants. Indeed, you will become much more like us, you will identify with us and you too will succeed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> >The universities are reaping the benefits of the Trump effect, with record levels of applications from overseas students seeing Canada as a North American alternative to the United States.

It's been record levels since the beginning of Obama's term in 2008 and climbing every year. Reason is immigration laws since then are incredibly lax for foreign students. If you want Canadian citizenship show up here for ESL private school, a hair academy, a university, any accredited course and you can obtain a temporary work permit while attending classes (and for a period afterwards). This allows a local company to offer to sponsor you for full time employment, which eventually leads to citizenship. Vancouver is filled with Brazilian accountants who got in this way, they came here to take ESL, and went to go work for some accounting firm like KPMG with their degrees they have from Brazil.

Edit: they changed the laws in 2014 to make this a little more difficult, but temporary work permits are still available for any student esp somebody going to university/college. These always lead to full-time offer and citizenship.

<comment><USER7> The only real problem I see is that comp. levels in Canada are not as high as the US while COL in most of the major cities is similar to NYC. As a (legal) immigrant to the US, while Canada definitely sounds very attractive, I don't want to take a major hit to my quality of life just to escape Trumpland...

<comment><USER8> > I don't want to take a major hit to my quality of life just to escape > Trumpland

Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better social services (read healthcare and education).

You make it sound like we're living in a 3rd world country.

<comment><USER9> > Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a > little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better > social services (read healthcare and education).

What if "little less money in your pocket" means 50% (or more) pay cut? For software engineers you are easily looking at a substantial reduction in salary.

I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education. But there is a breaking point where the comp. is too low for the extra services to make up the difference.

<comment><USER10> _> I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education._

Postsecondary education is not free* in Canada. It's certainly cheaper than in the US, but nowhere near free.

I paid around $10k/year for my B.Eng program (as a domestic student in the late 00's).

Also healthcare in Canada, while covering regular doctors visits and any emergency hospitalisation, is not entirely free. You still have to pay for dental/optical (unless your employer offers additional insurance) and you still pay for prescriptions (which can add up).

* maybe this is just your phrasing and you meant "better education and free healthcare"

<comment><USER9> Yes, I meant better/cheaper education and free healthcare. I am not actually too familiar with education in Canada.

Being from Eastern Europe my education has been completely free so I assumed it's the same in Canada as it is seen as a more socialist/liberal version of US (at least that's the impression I get about Canada from here).

The argument expressed in my comment still makes sense though, actually it's even stronger since education is not free in Canada.

<comment><USER11> Twelve years of grade school and high school are free in Canada. University isn't free, but is significantly subsidized, and there are various grant programs for people who can't afford even the subsidized rates. The Ontario student aid program is called OSAP.

You want an education in computer science at the University of Waterloo? If you're a Canadian or permanent resident, that's $7,278.48 per term for a total of roughly $58K plus living costs.

[https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial- services/tuit...](https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial- services/tuition-fee-schedules/fee-schedule-canadian-and-permanent-resident- undergraduates-5)

<comment><USER9> $58K is crazy. How come in my home country where we have very low taxation (~20%) all of this can be paid for by taxes for everybody but in a rich liberal country like Canada you have to pay 58 grand for a degree?

And Canada doesn't even have an excuse of being the world policeman. At least US can say we have to pay tons of money for military and hundreds of our army bases around the world so there is no left over money for public education. But what's the reason for Canada?

I mean if you have rich parents who will pay it for you then you don't care but if you are normal and have to pay it yourself that means you probably need to take a loan, going into debt right at the beginning of your adult life.

That's bit unfair, you should have a clean starting slate and equal opportunity with others, not be forced to go into debt immediately.

<comment><USER7> Because in your home country, wages are lower, which makes everything cheaper than in Canada (I'm taking a guess here, since you mention some Eastern European country).

Also, I'm very much pro-environment and everything, but the reality is that regulations have a real cost. e.g. fire safety, parking space etc. Not to mention taxes for local, state and federal level... it adds up to make shit expensive.

<comment><USER9> Sure everything is cheaper but tax revenue is also proportionally cheaper.

Average salary is 12k euro per year. So if you are collecting 20% of that as income tax, that's a small amount of revenue to work with and it is still enough to cover free healthcare and education.

My point being that everything is cheaper but in proportion to that salaries and tax revenues from those salaries are also much smaller compared to a first world country like Canada.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> One of the things I always ask in these discussions is "so what did that do for them" Finland is also an education super-power but what does it really do for the country?

Unless all countries are underdeveloped, education is a hygiene factor and doesn't as such provide any benefits.

In Europe, Switzerland is one of the countries with the fewest academics. Instead they focused on technical educations (starting from something akin to trade school up to university level knowledge). The results while most European countries first now a waking up the the realization that academic education isn't the only education of value and is scrambling to make their tradeschools/technical schools working better, Switzerland is one of the few countries doing very specialized production that can't be outsourced (for now)

In other words education is important but the focusing on education especially higher but also on the elementary level as some sort of indication of how well a country is fairing is not really a useful metric.

<comment><USER13> I would say a technical education is an education, but I agree, pure academia isn't for everyone - though the article doesn't distinguish this. In fact, Switzerland does very well by the OECD metric [1].

Why is education important? Can I suggest we compare two countries singled out in the article as 'could do better's - the USA and UK, and their recent democratic decisions. Compare that to Canada's cabinet, who, for example, has appointed someone with a PhD as minister for science [2], a doctor as minister for health [3] etc etc. I don't think I need to give examples of Scandinavian countries which regularly top the rankings for both wealth and pay equality.

Maybe a population where the country has valued education are less likely to say they "have had enough of experts" [4], more likely to respect the knowledge of a specialist, and more likely to have skills which are capable of transferring to the changing work market.

The problem is that investing in education has its pay-offs 20-30 years down the line, which is why, even if we believe in education, governments are reluctant to actually spend the money on it.

[1] [http://www.oecd.org/edu/bycountry/switzerland/](http://www.oecd.org/edu/bycountry/switzerland/)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_Duncan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsty_Duncan)

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Philpott](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Philpott)

[4] [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Michael_Gove)

<comment><USER14> > _the USA and UK, and their recent democratic decisions._

As long as people (especially educated liberal leaning people) keep framing recent elections as "dumb people elected Trump cause they're dumb," we're going to keep getting Trumps in the elected office. One of the loudest things communicated in the last election in America is that people who don't vote like you are tired of the patronizing, condescending and presumptuous tone. Rather than characterizing the outcome of the last election as "uneducated people elected an asshole", it might do well to understand the concerns of the people who elected him, rather than dismissing them offhand.

<comment><USER13> I hear this argument a lot. Just because something is inflammatory, doesn't mean it isn't true [1]. It also doesn't mean discussing it will cause it to happen again. It also doesn't mean that we can't also look into the causes and concerns of said people and the vote.

Improving education allows people to develop skills for a changing job market, as well as recognise that some promises [2] were suspect from the start. My opinion is that these were two contributing factors to vote result.

[1] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk- politics-38762034](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034)

[2] [https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indy100.com/article/7-brexi...](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.indy100.com/article/7-brexit- promises-that-have-already-been-abandoned--b1Ne7rGnZDZ%3famp)

<comment><USER12> Education has far less to do with being educated than the word might allude to.

Having a university degree is no guarantee against a stupid electorate.

<comment><USER7> The thing though is that a university degree does confer some amount of critical thinking on _most_ of its graduates. I'm rather skeptical that _every_ college graduate is guaranteed to be a smart, critical thinking, nuances person. But I do feel comfortable in saying that most are. And even those that aren't, have been exposed to people who are, have created social networks etc.

So I don't think being a college educated Republican/Conservative is a contradiction. The difference is the college educated person is more likely to believe in facts and reasoned arguments than appeals to passion, or native tribalism. They are more likely to have more faith in institutions, including democracy.

I think its hard for someone who went to college to relate to a person who hasn't been in terms of what kind of effect college has on their lives.

<comment><USER12> Critical thinking is a talent not something you learn at the university. People of all shapes and sizes form alle parts of society has it. It starts way earlier than university too.

There is a much magical thinking going on at university level as many other places in society. Further more critical thinking is often mistaken for constructive thinking which is another rather big issue with universities. Universities are mostly about analysis not about creating which leaves a gaping hole in the real world.

I have worked with my share of academics and non-academics. There is no noticeable difference between them generally speaking. Only when it comes to subject matters do we differ in our naivety and hasty conclusions but the ability to think critical is IMO something very different.

<comment><USER7> > I have worked with my share of academics and non-academics.

Unless you have a different definition of "academics", this doesn't seem to me like you're arguing for anything. By "non-academics", are you talking about "not-gone-to-college"?

And I'm not going to continue this discussion either way, since we seem to be operating on anecdotes. Perhaps your experience has been different than mine. I would add though that I'm not asserting that a University automatically imbibes critical thinking, just that it exposes students to it, whether it be their professors or peers. A college education expands your worldview, but certainly it can be achieved in other ways (travel, reading etc.)

<comment><USER12> Yes I am talking about not-gone-to-college.

There is anecdotal evidence and then there are anecdotes. I am simply questioning the idea that university are somehow turning people into critical thinkers if they weren't before.

Critical thinking is a skill. You have to practice it like you practice music. And just like music simply being exposed to piano playing doesn't make you a piano player.

<comment><USER7> > Critical thinking is a skill. You have to practice it like you practice > music. And just like music simply being exposed to piano playing doesn't > make you a piano player.

Actually, this is a good point. Yes, I agree 100% it doesn't automatically make you a piano player. But it _might_ make you _appreciate_ piano music and pianists more. It might make you interested in how piano music evolved over time etc.

<comment><USER12> Sure but the world doesn't get better because everyone know a bit of history. Not until it's internalized does it truly add value (and even there it's a slippery slope)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > The OECD, trying to understand Canada's success in education, described the > role of the federal government as "limited and sometimes non-existent".

Actually, the federal government did make one critical mandate[1]. It effectively ensures that we are all exposed to two languages in school, and creates a much more rigorous French immersion stream in the school system.

That immersion into another culture and language, at a very early age, has paid huge dividends in my ability to travel, to assemble and work in multinational teams, and to form constructive, even loving, relationships with people who are at first very alien to me. I believe that it is also to be credited for enabling several of us, all from the French immersion stream, to begin playing with algebra somewhere around Grade 3, by deeply reinforcing our awareness of multiple representations for single concepts or entities. This then segued into my first programming language, QBasic, a year later.

If you have kids, then based on my own experience and observation of my cohorts, I strongly recommend that you find a way to ensure that they learn a second language, while they are still learning their first. Throw them in the deep end, you can always pull them out.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_23_of_the_Canadian_Cha...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_23_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms)

<comment><USER16> French immersion is also criticized for segregating the academically-minded families who put their students through it from the general population.

The best parts of it can, and should be replicated across the general student population, without creating a taxpayer-funded charter school system.

<comment><USER17> >French immersion is also criticized for segregating the academically-minded families who put their students through it from the general population.

"Academically-minded families"? What do you mean? Families that care about education vs families that don't?

<comment><USER18> I think that is exactly what he means. The parents who put their children in French immersion programs tend to fall into one of two groups. The first group are francophones living in an Anglophone part of the country. The second group are parents who prize academic success for their children.

<comment><USER17> >The second group are parents who prize academic success for their children.

So apparently OP is finding fault with the fact that some parents care enough about their kids' education (specifically knowledge of French) to put them in a french immersion school. Given that both are public schools open to all, what are is OP actually complaining about?

<comment><USER19> >Given that both are public schools open to all

In the first few years of your education, yes they are open to all. However, once a child has gone through several years of french immersion, they have the ability to choose between continuing in french, or dropping into english. A child who has done only english has a similar option, but it will require considerable extra work on their part to switch to french. So a public french immersion high school cannot be considered open to all.

>care enough about their kids' education (specifically knowledge of French)

Not specifically. Certain public schools can be more well funded, or specialize in different areas than others. A school which has a french immersion program might also have a heavier focus on academics than other schools. Once it gains a better reputation, it might become attractive even to those who aren't interested in having a better education. A french immersion program is a way of limiting such peoples access to these schools.

<comment><USER17> > A child who has done only english has a similar option, but it will require > considerable extra work on their part to switch to french. So a public > french immersion high school cannot be considered open to all

Yeah ... No.

Are you just looking for things to complain? If there's some school with a good reputation is it automatically 'limiting access' to those kids who don't live in that neighborhood? Jeez.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is good news, but it doesn't tell the whole story. What's important to remember is that each Canadian province has its own education system, so mileage may greatly vary depending on where you live in Canada.

In Québec, where I live, the drop-out rate is abysmal compared to other provinces, especially in french-speaking school boards [1] (which are much more numerous in Québec):

[1] [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/dismal-dropout- rates-...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/dismal-dropout-rates-among- french-speaking-students-worry-minister-1.2771757)

<comment><USER21> Also, Manitoba is ranked almost last within Canada for science, reading, and math

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> > Within three years of arriving, the Pisa tests show the children of new > migrants have scores as high as the rest of their schoolmates.

> It makes Canada one of the few countries where migrant children achieve at a > level similar to their non-migrant counterparts.

The high performance of migrant children probably comes from their motivated and educated parents due to Canada's immigration policy:

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/opinion/canada- immigratio...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/28/opinion/canada-immigration- policy-trump.html)

</comment><comment><USER23> > But the children of newly-arrived, migrant families seem to integrate > rapidly enough to perform at the same high level as their classmates.

Quite the opposite, I think. I don't have the data to back it up, but it always seemed like the migrant kids excelled far more often in STEM courses (to the point where our classes were considered trivial or elementary) than their Canadian-born peers.

<comment><USER24> This is my experience throughout gradeschool as well.

The explanation is quite evident: the immigration policies put in place promote such that only the best come in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> For those looking for the actual results, its the 2015 PISA results conducted by sampling 15 year olds. Heres a more relevant link:

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-s-15-year-old- stude...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/canada-s-15-year-old-students- among-best-global-performers-in-science-math-1.3883341)

For more info from OECD on results: [http://www.oecd.org/education/Singapore- tops-latest-OECD-PIS...](http://www.oecd.org/education/Singapore-tops-latest- OECD-PISA-global-education-survey.htm)

</comment><comment><USER26> It seems to me like every second country is an education superpower now and feels quite special about it. What do we get if we combine this information with that most students don't feel they've learned in school the skills they needed after school, and also combine it with many scientists believing that science is not about generating knowledge anymore but about producing an endless, unchecked stream of papers?

If considered a market, I'd say these three things combined make it a likely bubble and an oportunity to start looking for what will come after.

<comment><USER27> Modern society does not have any metaphysical meaning associated with it and everything is heavily specialized and distributed using self-interest. This at the end seems to be a recipe for eventual failure. Why? One reason is that self-interests start aligning with each other forming monopolies and conglomerates which is essentially corruption manifest. The modern civilization needs an overarching metaphysics which then ties to a sense of morality of each individual serving the entire society rather than just themselves. That's the only hope we have for a future. Otherwise the aligned self-interest will destroy civilization.

If you carry this out you see its implications everywhere in the system. The food production does not serve any goals of society, instead food production is focused on optimizing for costs and yield. What this leads to is intensive farming which then leads to depletion and fragility which leads to disease. In terms of actually producing the food to eat, i.e, processed food, again self- interest produces highly addictive foods that increase profit, the cost of that is paid by the other side of the bargain.

When that self-interest of corporations aligns with academia or even the self- interest of academia itself, it then starts focusing on profit and educating students for the needs of corporations. Which then feeds into this sort of cycle of people who serve corporations, and corporations who serve themselves. And society pays the price.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I think it's important to point out that this rising tide does not lift all boats. The autonomy of individual provinces results in a divide between the provinces. While provinces like Ontario and BC rank in the top 5 globally, Prince Edward Island ranks 26th in the world. I'm from PEI, and when I arrived at university I noticed my peers from bigger provinces were simply taught more material, especially in math and science. Ideally there would be some more standardization nationally to reduce this delta.

</comment><comment><USER29> > Another distinguishing feature is that Canada's teachers are well paid by > international standards - and entry into teaching is highly selective.

Funny how this makes education level better, huh?

Are you listening, France?

<comment><USER30> Huh, why are you singling out France out of the blue?

I'd say that the fact that France is better than OECD average with relatively low teacher pay (though higher than the average salary in the country) seems to indicate that salary isn't everything, on the contrary.

The differences regarding immigration to Canada and France might be a far more important factor though.

<comment><USER31> Maybe he or she is French and has experience of these issues? Just a complete guess though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I took an AP math in Canada and later graduated from CS department of U of Toronto. The schools in Toronto did at least one thing right: they didn't dumb down their courses.

I did well in my AP calculus, 98/100 or something like that, but I still felt the pressure in all the tests and exams, as there were just so many questions crammed in a single test. I had to keep writing, non stop, and barely had time to double check any of my answers. Contrast to my school experience before I went to Canada, I could usually use way less than half of the exam time to finish and double check every problem.

The same pattern continued in U of T. The class average of courses like algorithms often went below 40/100\. I usually had to keep writing until the last minute to finish every single question in an exam. Assignments were usually time consuming and required lots of thinking. I still remember the tremendous satisfaction when I finally proved a theorem about universal hashing (an exercise from CLRS, IIRC). And past success on assignments and tests didn't guarantee good grades in the final exam. I was actually dumbfounded when I did poorly in my AI course, even though I did extremely well except for my final exam.

Looking back though, I am very grateful for the struggles my professors put me through. They made me. What I learned then carried me a long way, even today. Without the high standards imposed by the schools, an ordinary student like me would not be able to do as well. As I kept telling friends, schools MUST keep their students in discomfort zones to help them learn and improve - the very thing that US schools, in particular SF bay area public schools, have been failing miserably.

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm reading Nassim Nicholas Taleb's Antifragile at the moment. His explanation of how Switzerland operates as municipalities, with little central government intervention - except collecting taxes - is strikingly similar.

In this context: Let smaller education decision making groups decide what is important for their local area. Any failure is of benefit to all, while the negative impacts of the actual failure are localised.

</comment><comment><USER34> PISA results are a good indicator how well a particular educating system prepares students for PISA tests.

Looking at the charts in [1], Canadian performance seems to be slightly declining (esp. Maths).

[1][http://www.compareyourcountry.org/pisa/country/CAN?lg=en](http://www.compareyourcountry.org/pisa/country/CAN?lg=en)

</comment><comment><USER35> My father taught college in both Canada and the United States around 40 years ago. When I asked about the differences between the two countries he said they were basically the same, except that Canadian students worked harder and complained less.

</comment><comment><USER36> This will be self-congratulatory, but teachers deserve a huge amount of the thanks for these results. We deal with increasing student complexity, bureaucratic requirements and degraded infrastructure to not only get the job done well, but to get it done to some of the highest standards in the world.

Note too that we haven't just done well on the most recent PISA tests, we've been a consistent top level finisher across the three subject tests since PISA started over a decade ago.

</comment><comment><USER37> Something else to add ... there was an influx of draft dodgers from the Vietnam War, and a lot of those became teachers. Canada was investing in their education system at that time whereas the U.S. was trying to choke off campus protest movements. Fast forward half a century, and that investment has paid dividends.

</comment><comment><USER38> It's obviously because of Jordan B. Peterson.

</comment><comment><USER39> Oh look, yet another article about a country that's doing education better than us here in the US. And the funny thing is that they all seem to do things in different ways.

You know what I think the problem is? Americans on the whole just don't care about public education. Either in terms of quality or equity.

<comment><USER40> Coming from Europe, I can tell you that secondary Canadian education is laughable at best.

<comment><USER41> I had the exact same impression, yet somehow they nail it in OECD comparative tests.

<comment><USER11> Having gone through the Canadian education system, I would guess that Canada's high score comes from doing a good job on the lower percentiles, 1-50 or so. The system is slow and repetitive in the lower grades; its focus is getting _everyone_ up to basic standards rather than challenging the best students. But if you're at all clever and diligent, it's boring.

Tracking happens late, at entry to high school (grade 9), where they split you up into academic, regular, and vocational tracks. From there on things move at a more respectable pace, at least in the academic track. But at that point the top-track students are already years behind their peers in other systems that moved faster and tracked sooner. I would guess the top students coming out of high school are about two years behind students in academic tracks in other countries, like the UK or Germany.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> When it comes to fairness and equality. No doubt, Canada is doing wonderful job. System treats everyone the same. Any country interested to improve should certainly investigate Canadian system.

<comment><USER43> Equality of opportunity is what is important, not equality of outcome, which is what some people try to conflate it with.

<comment><USER44> This is the kind of ideology that leads to trouble. If there is equality of opportunity, there will be equality of outcomes, at least on average. When you see inequality rising it is a serious clue that opportunities are not the same for everyone.

<comment><USER45> What about focusing on social mobility instead of equality?

<comment><USER46> How about _equity_ instead of equality?

Anyway, "social mobility" generally just means there's no caste system or effective caste system. If the inequity in the system means that a small percent of people hold most of the wealth and power, what difference does it make if anyone has a chance to join that elite?

In a zero-sum game, social mobility is better to exist than not but it isn't going to actually change anything fundamental.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Non-AMP version: [http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40708421](http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40708421).

<comment><USER48> Thanks, we changed it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> Articles like this put me off because it is blatant propaganda.

Canada isn't an education superpower. The silly international ranking of kids' test taking abilities is meaningless.

Real education superpowers are those with top universities which in turn produce economic gains/growth/etc.

If canada was a true economic superpower, we'd see them producing Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc.

Frankly, there is only 1 education superpower - the US. Go check a list of top 100 universities. It's almost entirely US colleges. Britain is the next far distant competitor. The only other nation who may challenge the US to become an education superpower in the future is china as they are building tons of universities. This is something we did in the US in the 1800s. Build a incredible number of universities as our economy grew. The only question is whether china will be able to match our quality because they are going to surpass our quantity by a large margin.

[http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35776555](http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35776555)

Also, if the BBC journalist did any bit of research, they would know that Canada's "150th anniversary" is fake propaganda itself. Canada isn't 150 years old. They gained their independence in 1983.

<comment><USER20> > Real education superpowers are those with top UNIVERSITIES which in turn > produce economic gains/growth/etc.

Why is your metric considered more apt than the article's? Good student performance consistently correlates with higher-paying jobs and higher quality of life. At the nation level, this correlates to higher Human-Development Index, which is generally considered a pretty good thing to have...

> If canada was a true economic superpower, we'd see them producing Google, > Facebook, Microsoft, etc.

That is utter nonsense. What does this have to do with education at all? Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Mark Zuckerberg, Sean Parker, and Steve Jobs were all college dropouts. They simply had the right idea at the right time. Their economic success has very little to do with the U.S. education system.

<comment><USER49> > Good student performance consistently correlates with higher-paying jobs and > higher quality of life.

Because that's the more sensible definition for superpower?

> Good student performance consistently correlates with higher-paying jobs and > higher quality of life. At the nation level, this correlates to higher > Human-Development Index, which is generally considered a pretty good thing > to have...

Great. I agree. Did I disagree anywhere? My issue is with the usage of the word superpower. And americans on average earn more than canadians.

> Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Mark Zuckerberg, Sean Parker, and Steve Jobs were > all college dropouts.

And? They did go to college.

> They simply had the right idea at the right time.

Right.

> Their economic success has very little to do with the U.S. education system.

Ah I see. When the US education creates successes, it has nothing to do with the US education system. When canada's education system produces successes, canada is a superpower.

As I said, my only issue is with the BBC blatant propagandistic article. Their use of "superpower" and their perpetuating the lie of Canada's 150th year.

I'm for education. But canada is no more an education superpower than north korea is a nuclear superpower.

And I love your logic. Bill Gates, Zuckerburg, etc don't count. But kids taking silly tests count. Okay.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Canada will be the world super power in the next 5 to 10 years. By then, the USA will lose its access to cheap credit and will become a cesspool for haters of high skilled and legal immigrants

</comment><comment><USER51> Speaking as an Indian, I think Canada is well poised to be the next big super power, replacing the USA. The only other country that looks like can pull this off is Germany.

Education together with freedom and tolerance always gives the best return for the money you invest. These days its a given that most Indian students who originally opted to go for US to do their MS degrees are now flocking to Canada. Also a whole range of working professionals are going to Canada to work, start companies and contribute to the economy of Canada.

Your economy and overall national ecosystem always benefits when you get highly trained, hard working people with a strong work ethic as immigrants. Not only do these people contribute to the economy disproportionately in return for a good life, they also impart similar values to their kids.

At the same time its sad to see US take such a protectionist and anti- immigrant stance, totally forgetting the important role immigrants have played in the rich and success journey so far.

More dangerous than all these awesome immigrants not coming to your country is they going else where. There is no infinite supply of great talent in the world, and given how priorities align not everybody can be trained to be good enough among your existing citizen-pool. The only real way of having a disproportionate set of awesome people in your country, is to create an environment where you can attract them from outside. Without these awesome people no country can last a long time in front of a competition.

<comment><USER52> Speaking as a Canadian...

The U.S. still has ten times our population. With a population of just over 35 million, Canada is the world's 38th most populous country. That's a little over two Mumbai's. Perhaps Canada will become more influential in the years to come, but a superpower?

If you were simply referring to education, again, Canada is unlikely to compete with the U.S.'s ivy league in the near future. Our universities have higher standards than U.S. universities on average, but we lack both low-end crapiversities and truly elite institutions that can generate the kind of funding a U.S. ivy league university can. If you can't make it into the ivy league than a Canadian university is a great option, but if you can...

Our government isn't investing significantly more than the U.S. on research on a per capita basis, so the bulk of grant money in North America is still in the U.S.. Also, our tech sector is sluggish and poorly paid as compared to that of the U.S.. Lots of people like the idea of moving from the U.S. to Canada... until they find out they'll be making half as much for the same work!

No, Canada isn't poised to become a superpower anytime soon. The best we can hope for is improvement. We're going to see a lot of articles like this from U.S. authors because they're really not happy with their politics right now, nor should they be. However, the reality is that Canada is still a bit of a backwater. We're North America's Sweden. A nice place to live, but too small to really make a huge impact.

<comment><USER41> Wait Canada is "too small" now? You have deserted islands bigger than my country. I bet you could fit the entire UK in a place with 0 inhabitants - without breaking it to smaller chunks! That's a ridiculously hefty country... it's infinite in any practical sense.

<comment><USER53> > That's a ridiculously hefty country... it's infinite in any practical sense.

Isn't most of Canada just a snowy wasteland</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Scientists discover light could exist in a previously unknown form - <AUTHOR> http://phys.org/news/2016-08-scientists-previously-unknown.html <comment><USER2> The potential benefits of combining the properties of the two (circuits that are more robust even when damaged, etc.) are intriguing, but there aren't any mentions of the potential negatives that will also undoubtedly arise. Will such circuits also be more prone to crosstalk? Will they be sensitive to different lighting conditions?

</comment><comment><USER3> Would be a huge breakthrough if true. I didn't see any plans for experimental proof in the article. Seems to be in the modelling phase.

What mechanism would bind the photon to the electron?

<comment><USER4> They are working on the experimental aspect:

> Dr Giannini added that it should be possible to observe the phenomena he has > modelled in experiments using current technology, and the team is working > with experimental physicists to make this a reality.</comment></comment>


A look at Darktable 2.0 - <AUTHOR> https://lwn.net/Articles/663805/ <comment><USER2> > darktable is an open source photography workflow application and RAW > developer. A virtual lighttable and darkroom for photographers.

</comment><comment><USER3> I really like Darktable as a project. It's a competent alternative to Lightroom for editing, but its library management features haven't impressed me (read: I couldn't really get it to work with more than a few dozen photos), not that Lightroom is great.

I'd love to see Darktable improve even more into a great Lightroom alternative. Props to the team.

<comment><USER4> I have been using it exclusively for a year or so now after using Lightroom and it is great. The only thing missing was the printing, but that has been in the development branch for a few months and so far it seems solid.

The library management is based on tags like gmail and for me it has been working with about 6000 photos. It takes some time getting used to though.

Another great feature is that it stores the .xmp files in the same folder as the raws so I can edit photos and my wife will see the changes on her computer (the photos are stored on a nas).

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This web page is not available: ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED [http://www.darktable.org/](http://www.darktable.org/)

<comment><USER6> Also, concerningly, you can request it on https but the cert's CN is "root.hackers.fi".

Maybe I'll just use the older version in Ubuntu's repository instead, or clone it from Github or something like that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> maybe it's time to revisit it; the last interaction I had with it ran into some significant usability issues (terrible contrast and tiny, tiny controls) which went casually dismissed when I brought it up with the devs. at the time I wrote it off as one more user-hostile OSS project.

<comment><USER8> I'm a regular user of Darktable for several years and I wouldn't call it a 'user-hostile' project, but the impossibly tiny controls for some functions is frustrating. Maybe they just need more UX experts to pitch in and help improve the product? This is certainly a common theme with FOSS.

Overall I get excellent results with the software, I like it and I'm pretty quick in my workflow, but those little triangles you have to right-click on (e.g. to adjust the exposure or black point) take me multiple tries. Every. Single. Time! My fine motor skill is great. And I'm using a good quality wired mouse because I like the precision.

<comment><USER7> Software designed in such a shitty fashion as to require special hardware to use it in 2015.

I tried to pitch in, and my input was summarily rejected.</comment></comment></comment>


Facebook Connect Launch Scheduled For November 30 - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/10/28/facebook-connect-launch-scheduled-for-november-30/

<comment><USER3> Facebook Connect has been a rushed mess. As a developer for one of the launch partners, I have been frustrated with constant instability, lack of / incoherent documentation, fuzzy launch dates, and most importantly - <USER2> reasons as to why I should spend time integrating Connect.

The whole idea of FB Connect seems to be getting outside developers to contribute to a closed version of openID.

<comment><USER4> Agreed. I've been working with it too - for touting how it "opens up facebook" it certainly lacks a lot of features...

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Sweet! I was just commenting in the YOS story about how FB Connect could easily become a market leader in cross-site logins. I've been wondering when they'd announce a release date.

<comment><USER6> Would you use FB Connect for an app? I'm asking because the way they forced the FB Platform into oblivion makes me very wary. At any time they could decide to eliminate it and now you have no registered users. Considering that Facebook has had a history of being just open enough to encourage lock-in that one later regrets, I just wouldn't want to use it.

<comment><USER7> This is why I like paying for things, then you have a contract. Building a business on something that relies utterly on someone elses whim is silly. Not that they're bad people, mind; their agenda just differs from yours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> im not the biggest fan of connect. but i there are some neat potential uses.

for example, would be useful to know what my friends watch when im on netflix.

</comment><comment><USER9> I wish Facebook Connect would be compatible with OpenID.</comment>


FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring - <AUTHOR> http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/fbi-files-ows.html <comment><USER2> What kind of idiocy is this? This is the FBI's _job_ \-- to monitor both foreign and domestic groups of national scope that _might_ present some kind of threat to civil order.

They're not like the fire department, where they sit around waiting for something to happen. They're supposed to get out there and get proactively involved in all kinds of things from white supremacists to greens.

As a libertarian I enjoy a good rant about state security as much as the next guy, but I prefer to do so from an informed position. There's enough real things to worry about without going on about the FBI doing what they're supposed to be doing.

<comment><USER3> The group that poses the biggest threat to civil order in the US are the elites who are looting the country as society collapses around them.

And how exactly do you call yourself a "libertarian" and then support a national intelligence agency monitoring the non-violent political activities of private citizens? If the FBI was monitoring libertarian party members and events that would be kosher with you too, or is it just hippies that deserve the police state treatment?

<comment><USER4> I am not a libertarian. I am a liberal. I broadly support the goals of the Occupy movement. I also support the principles of this action by the FBI (though almost certainly not all of the details).

Why?

Among other things, it is the job of the FBI to monitor situations that could turn into problems. The Occupy movement, as legitimate as it is, has the potential to attract easily radicalized people. These people could easily coalesce into a radical fringe whose methods would be counter to both the desires of both the majority of Occupy and the legitimate goals of law enforcement. (See the Weathermen for an example of such a group that arose out of broad protests during the 60s.)

If law enforcement can stay abreast of the Occupy movement, and hopefully form connections between their officers and various well connected people, they have the opportunity to better monitor and head off this radical fringe. That is a legitimate goal for law enforcement, and benefits the Occupy movement as well.

The details where I would disagree with this action are any and all where law enforcement seeks to block the rights of reasonable people to political protest. Given what law enforcement is like, I am certain that this has happened to some extent. However my impression is that on the whole the focus really has been to be prepared for illegitimate action, and not to block legitimate protest. Therefore my default position is cautious support of this law enforcement action, even though I recognize the possibility of abuse.

<comment><USER5> Who decides what's illegitimate? Is it anything the police says like sitting down at the wrong place, wearing a mask not to be identified or just being part of something considered illegitimate?

It's uncommon even in totalitarian countries that the government won't have some justification for its behavior. If people in Quebec would have respected bill 78, maybe there wouldn't have been a change in government there.

<comment><USER4> In the end, legitimacy is decided by the country as a whole. In a well-working country, laws, courts, and police are a reasonable proxy for that.

Incidentally I had not read about bill 78. The anti-protest portions of the bill I am strongly against. But the tuition hikes that were being protested, well, I was paying more tuition 20 years ago in British Columbia, Canada than Quebec students would have paid. I have little sympathy with the student protests about tuition. Furthermore I am personally of the political belief that the culture of widespread entitlement in Quebec is among the reasons that it is much worse off economically than the rest of the country.

Note, this is coming from someone who, while I was in Canada, was politically fairly far to the left. And Canada is fairly far to the left of the United States. This is not the time or place to debate it, but in the case of Quebec my opinions are shaped in part by the separatist movement there. I grew up with friends whose families left Quebec due to Bill 101, which is likely the most racist law passed anywhere in North America in my lifetime. Before objecting, go read it, and educate yourself on why the Bank of Montreal is now headquartered in Toronto, and what economic impacts that has had on Montreal.

It didn't help that the value of my Canadian sourced scholarship dropped sharply due to the the widespread belief in Quebec during the early 90s that they had the right to take not only their marbles, but all of the marbles that they had been given while abandoning all of the debts that they had run up, on a straight majority vote. (One of those marbles being a lot of land with good hydroelectric power, built on land given under the condition that they take good care of the natives, with natives who voted 99.7% that if Quebec left Canada, they would leave Quebec.) Yes, I am sure that you see things differently and think that Quebec was entitled to do that. But explain to me why the natives were not entitled to leave Quebec, and find an argument that cannot be turned around and be seen by a third party as an argument that Quebec not be allowed to leave Canada.

<comment><USER6> French Quebecer here. I've been trying to learn more about why the perception from English Canada is the way it is and posts like yours help a lot.

 _likely the most racist law passed anywhere in North America_

In what ways? Do you feel that it was specifically intended to kick out English Canadians?

 _It didn't help that the value of my Canadian sourced scholarship dropped sharply due to_

I don't follow - how did that happen?

 _built on land given under the condition that they take good care of the natives, with natives who voted 99.7% that if Quebec left Canada, they would leave Quebec_

Both of those facts are new to me. Do you have any source/link? Which territory and treaty are you referring to?

<comment><USER7> I feel btilly's comment contained more venom than it ought to have, but it does give you some idea of a common viewpoint in English Canada.

>In what ways? Do you feel that it was specifically intended to kick out English Canadians?

The law itself is probably not so bad, but the perception has been that it specifically targets English speaking Quebecois. There have certainly been plenty of news stories over the years about inappropriate and over zealous enforcement. For example, a store owner receiving a fine for a sign saying "leave the air conditioner plugged in" without a French translation. Now, I don't know, he probably won in court, but the fact that he even had to go to court is a travesty.

>I don't follow - how did that happen?

The uncertainty surrounding the referendum in 1995 caused a significant fall in the value of the Canadian dollar.

>Both of those facts are new to me. Do you have any source/link? Which territory and treaty are you referring to?

I think btilly's grasp of history is a bit weak here, but for an idea of what inspired this bit of the rant read this short section on wikipedia: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum,_1995#First_N...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_referendum,_1995#First_Nations), keeping in mind that Jacques Parizeau insisted that Quebec could not be partitioned, "the borders are protected by international law," while at the same time insisting that Quebec could unilaterally leave Canada.

<comment><USER4> _The law itself is probably not so bad..._

Until they were forced to change it because of the 1982 Constitution, anglophone children of anglophone parents who had moved to Quebec from elsewhere in Canada were forced to send their children to French only schools. This was in fact the primary reason that the families of children who I met in school gave for having recently left Quebec. (Even after the new Constitution, people who had moved to Quebec from other countries were still impacted.)

 _I think btilly's grasp of history is a bit weak here..._

I misremembered the statistics, but not the gist of the facts. As I pointed out in a separate response, the rest of the history that I'm digging up is that 2/3 of the current boundaries of Quebec were given to it post- Confederation. And the bills which gave those to Quebec came with both rights and responsibilities. With the clear message that if Quebec failed of its responsibilities, it could not retain its rights.

Given that historical fact, Jacques Parizeau's proclamation that Quebec is unpartitionable was incredibly one-sided. And I have no clue why so many in Quebec both did, and continue to, accept that position as being undisputedly correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The presumptuous labeling is definitely questionable, but the coordination and communication seems applaudable.(for a government organization)

If there was a movement of people planing to protest Google or Facebook, I would expect the FBI to warn them if they had solid information it was going to happen. In fact if they were aware of large scale protests again an all but convicted child killer, they still have a responsibility to inform and protect. We protect criminals and saints equally in this country.

Second in my mind there is no question that on both "sides", police and protesters, individual people broke laws. Protests bring out the worst in some of the police officers under pressure and some of the protesters. So the FBI and the agencies they coordinated with would have been failing at their job to not monitor and report in an effort to protect the employees of the businesses.

You might not like the protection big banks got but they should receive it. Just like the most heinous criminal receives a lawyer to defend themselves, access to protection from danger (vigilanties), etc

So if we can step the emotions back a bit and use a critical eye on both sides of the protests I think we will see a FBI that jumped to conclusions but did their job.

And finally, I find it surprising in a start up forum that promotes agility and a lack of bureaucracy as the ideal that we are so quick to suggest more of it to an already bureaucratic, slow government.

</comment><comment><USER9> Is anyone surprised at all by this? It's not like this is new or something. Despite the various documented incidents of physical violence and intimidation inflicted by law enforcement officers on Occupy protesters, it comes nowhere near the sorts of horrors suffered by protesters during the Civil Rights Movement, for example. Especially in the South, where protesters were often being _attacked_ by the police.

</comment><comment><USER10> Of course they did. Let's ignore for a moment that protest groups (like PETA) are usually considered some of the highest risks for terrorism; it would be irresponsible of the bureau to take the protest at face value and assume they have completely peaceful intentions.

<comment><USER11> It's people actually peacefully protesting injustice and corruption that scare the powers that be. A bunch of rowdies can be arrested or shot easily and to the relief of many. Old and young people singing songs and what not, that's much trickier.

Ever read War Is a Racket? What makes you think Wall Street has peaceful intentions? What makes you think Wall Street doesn't cause a lot of death? What makes you think it's reasonably to project that evil on those who protest it? No wait; do you think, at all? Your bit about "the highest risks for terrorism" makes me wonder. Also, why bring up PETA? Why not bring up all the wonderful people who protest a lot of evil shit and make the world better; there is no day without that happening. You make it seem like all protest groups are out to destroy, which makes it rather obvious you wish they were. Would make it seem less crappy to, you know, not be out there protesting. Since protesters are potential terrorists (not my words, that's what you basically said), people who just sit at home are basically like the firefighters of 9/11 and the armed forces combined, but with a healthier lifestyle and pets 'n shit.

Yes, I'm at the border of flamebaiting, mod me down. This self-righteous stating if BS ("are usually considered some of the highest risks for terrorism" -- by whom? that's like "some people say", the staple of any hit piece) really really ticks me off. And I'm not even American, I'd be breathing fire otherwise.

<comment><USER10> > "No wait; do you think, at all?"

Frankly, I'm offended and disappointed that you've decided to turn this into a pointless personal attack. You already know you're being rude and belligerent, so moderate yourself instead of throwing out a condescending rant.

Take a look at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-terrorism> for a few groups that the FBI has historically monitored (PETA IS on that list). Given that all of these organizations have been accused of actions that endanger the safety and property of other American citizens, the FBI isn't doing its job if it doesn't monitor them. The Occupy movement could easily have spawned destructive or violent protests, and being unprepared would have been irresponsible of the Bureau.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> How much power do these scary bureaucratic agencies FBI, CIA, NSA actually yield in comparison to our elected politicians, anyway? Do they have any real accountability?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, not really. If they are in danger of having a lawsuit against them, they can usually just brush it off with the "state secrets" privilege, and if they are actually found guilty of doing illegal things, well...nothing happens to them. The worst that happens is that they need to change their methods, if that.

Now, if they get themselves in a sexual scandal, they are expected to present their resignation immediately. Because obviously that matters much more than doing something unconstitutional.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Surprised no one has posted this, it's a Rolling Stone article about Anonymous hacks that touches on Occupy movement monitoring. A good read if you have a minute. [http://m.rollingstone.com/entry/view/id/34125/pn/all/p/0/?KS...](http://m.rollingstone.com/entry/view/id/34125/pn/all/p/0/?KSID=771c39799bd7b9021608ce0d5ecf23aa&ints_viewed=1) Edit for bad link.

</comment><comment><USER14> For those of you that think the FBI is doing a wonderful job by doing this, I suggest looking up Brandon Darby and decide if that was tax dollars well spent and good government.

</comment><comment><USER15> Some are, I see, already mocking the ideological presumptousness of this, from a law enforcement agency. Gee Mulder, there's also this report of blah blah blah.

Well, why is PREVENTING some citizens from changing the ALWAYS "pro-business" status quo their job?

Socialism is coming anyway (not the socialism-for-the-rich-kind), esp if you consider socialized medicine to be a trojan horse of socialism.

The reason America fought socialism is not that it was bad, it was that it was foreign (Soviet domination) and undemocratic in that form. Via democracy you can have it any time you vote for it, and even press mogul Republican billionaires can't stop you.

(See my record.) I never comment these days anyway, since I worked out that this is not a board of intellectuals (and I allow that there are conservative intellectuals), it is a board of (inherently capitalist and "selfish") Silicon Valley VCs and startup people. And here come the some people to argue with me, and some Randroids among them.

<comment><USER16> This is interesting. Are you saying socialism is coming because of a current trend in policies the US population is voting for, or because of a different reason? I'm legitimately curious.</comment></comment>


How Customers Take Advantage Of Retailers - <AUTHOR> http://www.sitejabber.com/blog/2010/09/24/how-do-customers-take-advantage-of-retailers/ <comment><USER2> Stores frequently have extremely lenient return policies.

I worked at a supermarket where every week a guy would come to return four super-sized protein supplement bottles with various excuses.

With the return money, he would walk out with four new bottles. It took weeks for everybody in charge of customer service to stop giving him refunds.</comment>


'Healthiest hearts in the world' found - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39292389 <comment><USER3> > At the age of 45, almost no Tsimane had CAC in their arteries while 25% of > Americans do.

> By the time they reach age 75, two-thirds of Tsimane are CAC-free compared > with the overwhelming majority of Americans (80%) having signs of CAC.

The article doesn't mention obesity _at all_. 40% of Americans over 40 are obese[1]. Tsimane obesity rates of adults (>20 years) are 5.6% for women and 1.6% for men[2].

Journalists love writing about dietary composition as if increasing your fish (or whatever) consumption is a magic bullet, but merely changing composition without losing weight is only a moderate improvement (maybe 30% fewer heart attacks, based on that retracted NEJM dietary study[3]).

[1]: [https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html) [2]: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392307/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3392307/) [3]: [https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303)

<comment><USER4> It's almost as if human experiences don't fit into the carefully curated categories we have in modern society where individual aspects are considered in isolation and not handled in a holistic way.

It's as if: the need for meaning, relationships, sleep, body, teeth, eating, professional development, daily routine, sitting, walking, how we walk, our individual body constructs, personality archetypes, mental health, etc... were more than the sum of their parts and being overly dissecting such things leads to a lessening, not increase in understanding of the whole.

A great book on psychology like thinking fast and slow will do a great job at dissecting reality from that narrow point of view, just as other books will do the same in other fields. But I don't really know of any field that is respected that combines many elements to study how to maximize human potential/study the human experience as a whole.

I offer no solutions, just an observation in terms of how we deal with the human experience in modernity.

<comment><USER5> This is because I can change a thing but I can't change my whole life. Well, I can, but that's hard and single things are easy.

<comment><USER4> You are right, it is necessary to dissect. But I feel it's taken on a life of it's own.

Just as work to live in some places has been distorted to live to work.

We should create categories to understand, not understand to create categories.

I've seen it everywhere. My doctor trying to shove pills down my throat when I had developed some bad habits and he didn't ask me ONE question about diet or night routine. I've seen it in universities where professors attack each others field instead of finding the common thread. In the boss that says "that's not your job, thats marketing/QA/dev/business dev/growth team/etc". It's a lack of understand that a team should provide value to the overall and the categories should only be there to aid in overall progress.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "The Tsimane get 72% of their energy from carbohydrates.

The fact that they have the best indicators of cardiovascular health ever reported is the exact opposite to many recent suggestions that carbohydrates are unhealthy."

Refined carbs ARE unhealthy and it's a bit disheartening that they didn't make that distinction in the article.

<comment><USER7> To add to your point Okinawans once had the greatest life expectancy on Earth and the majority of their diet was carbs too.

Since the introduction of "western diet" post WW2 the majority of their diet is still carbs and yet they now show significant increase of Chronic disease (obesity, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease and kidney disease) and lowered life expectancy.

<comment><USER8> It turns out, though, that Okinawan long life expectancy was actually due to rampant pension fraud rather than long life. I can't remember the exact date, but it would have been around 2008, a reporter went to visit the oldest people in Japan (most of whom were living in Okinawa). They started at the oldest and found that the person wasn't home ("visiting relatives"). So they went to the next oldest. Similar story. They went through the top 20 and couldn't find any of them.

The government clued in and investigated and it turns out that Okinawan doctors were making a tidy profit by agreeing not to file death certificates. This enabled families to continue to claim pension benefits on behalf of their supposedly aged relatives.

After the the smoke died down the went back and looked at Okinawan life expectancy taking pension fraud into consideration and discovered that it was pretty much exactly the same as the rest of Japan. The original life expectancy/diet studies had relied on government information rather than actually interviewing people. I'm sorry I don't have a citation for you as I saw this in a documentary in Japan on TV.

<comment><USER7> That's a great story and I'll look into it.

However, I do believe they legitimately have the most centurions and I have read about autopsies on centurions which found they showed no signs of chronic disease. Of course that is surviorship bias, but assuming the total number of centurions is true, especially given the small population, I think there is more there there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "It means:

72% of calories come from carbohydrates compared with 52% in the US

14% from fat compared with 34% in the US, Tsimane also consume much less saturated fat

Both Americans and Tsimane have 14% of calories from protein, but Tsimane have more lean meat"

That really does seem counter to the low-carb diets that seem to be all the rage among internet communities (also HN).

But, maybe it's just the constant exercise the Tsimane people are getting: "They are also far more physically active with the men averaging 17,000 steps a day and the women 16,000."

<comment><USER7> >That really does seem counter to the low-carb diets that seem to be all the rage among internet communities (also HN).

Generally people discussing "low carb diets" really mean managing blood glucose/insulin spikes. So high glycemic carbs, refined sugars, refined carbs.

Not all carbs are created equal when we talk about impacts on blood glucose and/or the liver.

<comment> 52-6F-62 This is true.

It's likely that beside the rice and maize, most of their carbs come from vegetables. It's one of the reasons why high-performance diets are usually heavy on the broccoli!

<comment> munk-a Another absolutely killer carb in western diets comes out of refined flour which makes it into a ton of stuff. My wife is gluten-free currently for health reasons and we've experimented with using more raw starch sources to great success. Most of these flour based foods don't need to be super-refined bleached flour.

<comment><USER10> Most "whole wheat" flour is literally the same refined flour from the same vat, but with some bran (fiber) and germ (nutrients) mixed back in. This could happen at the refinery shortly after refining, or weeks to months later using bran and germ sourced from a warehouse somewhere. Very unpredictable and not indicated anywhere on the label.

What seems consistent is that both diets high in whole grains and high-fiber diets in general have some heart health benefits. My guess is that refined+enriched flour in a high-fiber meal is not much, if any, worse than whole flour in a medium- or low-fiber meal. Those pastries and chips between meals, on the other hand...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Doesn't even mention sugar. Seems like that would be a very large and important difference.

Just says "72% of calories come from carbohydrates compared with 52% in the US", which might encourage a westerner to eat more carbs, but if they're eating whole rice and we're eating sugar that seems kinda important.

Comparison of gut bacteria would be interesting too, bet that's as important as the diet itself.

<comment><USER12> They're also exercising more than 100% of what Americans do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> So, what's their average total caloric intake? Hmm... 2400-2700/day[1] which is not in the Lancet article[2], but I did find that in an American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reference[3]. It appears they get lots of exercise, which isn't surprising.

[1][https://coach.nine.com.au/2018/11/05/14/03/tsimane-diet- card...](https://coach.nine.com.au/2018/11/05/14/03/tsimane-diet- cardiovascular-health)

[2][https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315262221_Coronary_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315262221_Coronary_atherosclerosis_in_indigenous_South_American_Tsimane_A_cross- sectional_cohort_study)

[3][https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30383188](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30383188)

<comment><USER14> That is even more illuminating. They eat primarily unrefined carbs like rice, corn, and plantains, 2400~2700 calories worth of it a day (more than I eat!), and yet they are very healthy and fit. Considering the numbers, it really looks like the difference is the amount of physical activity.

I think that sedentary humans are just not supposed to eat as much as we think or want to do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Another fact about Bolivians ... they are, on average, the shortest people in the world.

[https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the- short...](https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-shortest- average-heights.html)

<comment><USER16> Oh! Short stature, mountainous country near the equator - means the least gravity affecting their circulation! Natural heart-healthy situation!

<comment><USER17> You might be joking, but higher altitude also means less oxygen, which translates to reduced oxidation and less risk of cancer.

I'm on my cellphone so I don't have the paper on hand, but there was a big study where they compared lung cancer rates in different geographic areas and found that the highest cancer incidence was at sea level, whereas the lowest was at higher elevations. They tried controlling for other obvious variables but elevation was unquestionably the best explanation.

Oxidation may explain plaque in arteries.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > One idea is that intestinal worms - which dampen immune reactions - could be > more common and this may help protect the heart.

That worm infects most of the population:

> And about 70% of the population has a parasitic worm infection [Ascaris > lumbricoides, a type of roundworm]. ... Up to a third of the world's > population also lives with such infections.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34857022](https://www.bbc.com/news/health-34857022)

Before latching onto exercise or diet as the primary factors, it's worth considering the effect of this worm infection. It could influence the heart indirectly through nutrient flow, immune suppression as suggested for the original article or the one on pregnancy, or directly via for example larvae/segments, etc.

BTW, the lifecycle of this thing is the stuff of nightmares:

> Ascaris lumbricoides, a roundworm, infects humans via the fecal-oral route. > Eggs released by adult females are shed in feces. Unfertilized eggs are > often observed in fecal samples but never become infective. Fertilized eggs > embryonate and become infective after 18 days to several weeks in soil, > depending on the environmental conditions (optimum: moist, warm, shaded > soil).[5]. When an embryonated egg is ingested, a Rhabditiform larva hatches > then penetrates the wall of the duodenum and enters the blood stream. From > there, it is carried to the liver and heart, and enters pulmonary > circulation to break free in the alveoli, where it grows and molts. In three > weeks, the larva passes from the respiratory system to be coughed up, > swallowed, and thus returned to the small intestine, where it matures to an > adult male or female worm. Fertilization can now occur and the female > produces as many as 200,000 eggs per day for 12–18 months. These fertilized > eggs become infectious after two weeks in soil; they can persist in soil for > 10 years or more.[6]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascaris_lumbricoides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascaris_lumbricoides)

Clearly, the juvenile state spends some time in the circulatory system, where it should have some opportunities to influence coronary artery calcium.

I looked for studies that examined the incidence of heart disease/CAC buildup among other infected populations but didn't immediately find anything.

</comment><comment><USER19> One thing I didn't get a clear answer from the doctor about last time I saw one was this.

Can you unclog your arteries by changing your lifestyle, ie diet and exercise, or is the clogging permanent?

<comment><USER20> [https://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/cholesterol- and...](https://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/cholesterol-and-artery- plaque-buildup)

> Once a cholesterol plaque is there, it's generally there to stay. With > effective treatment, though, plaque buildup may slow down or stop.

> Some evidence shows that, with aggressive treatment, cholesterol plaques can > even shrink slightly. In one major study, cholesterol plaques shrank 10% in > size after a 50% reduction in blood cholesterol levels.

> The best way to treat cholesterol plaques is to prevent them from forming or > progressing. That can be done with lifestyle changes and, if needed, > medication.

<comment><USER21> [https://youtu.be/c5ELzL7DGpw?t=2426](https://youtu.be/c5ELzL7DGpw?t=2426)

Vitamin K - Mk7, Vitamin V, and Magnesium seem to help with the removal of calcifications of the artillery. Though I couldn't really find referees other than reports on `Vitamin K intake and calcifications in breast arteries Angela`

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> But is their health abnormal after accounting for the usual RRs associated with their BMI, exercise, fiber and trans fat intake? They don't drink or smoke, I presume?

The difficulty with "non-mathematical" sciences is that they tend to treat math as a tool for validation rather than expression. This is partially a failure of communication on the part of mathematicians.

</comment><comment><USER23> You know what else? They dont have air pollution like pm2.5, which is known to cause heart and lung disease.

[https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public- health/pm25.html](https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public-health/pm25.html)

</comment><comment><USER24> What about what protective or healthy heart genetic markers their population might have?

</comment><comment><USER25> Does anyone know if the Tsimane drink alcohol?

</comment><comment><USER26> It would be interesting to know if they observed how much sleep they take.

</comment><comment><USER27> Small anecdote: I did travels through Europe a while back and did lots of walking. That's fairly normal in many European towns and cities. Really felt great and decided to do 20k steps a day after return. Which tapered off slowly and unconsciously. Need to get back to that level. Your body respond quickly in positive direction, I can recall that much.

</comment><comment><USER28> This is a perfect example of how everything in life is always a trade off. Do you want a healthier heart to live a few extra years or do you want to sit on your couch and browse HN while enjoying your BigMac? Pick one because only a fool would believe they could have both.

</comment><comment><USER29> > 72% of calories come from carbohydrates

Not much different from the Blue Zones: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone)

</comment><comment><USER30> Tsimane diet fad coming soon.

<comment><USER14> Tsimane _exercise_ regimen, really.

<comment> 52-6F-62 Don't forget the intestinal worms

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> "One idea is that intestinal worms - which dampen immune reactions - could be more common and this may help protect the heart"

Let me get some of those worms!

</comment><comment><USER32> How much vegetable oil did they consume?

<comment><USER33> Judging from other "natives" I met, probably as much as they can(with Walmart being 1000 miles away, that would be little). I don't know if you were thinking in terms of "incriminating" veg oil in favor of butter etc, which is the trend in Atkins etc, but the takeaway message of such studies is exercise and the stress-free life, you become what you do and what you think! Eating is a part of thinking and doing, but only up to a point.

<comment><USER32> I was indeed thinking in terms of "incriminating" veg oil, but more in favor of omega 3 fatty acids (as is also the trend in Atkins etc,) not necessarily saturated fats in butter. (edit: Also silently implying here that n-3 to n-6 ratio matters. Omega-6 fats are essential, but in nature n-3:n-6 is found in more desirable ratios.)

I get what you're saying re: exercise and stress, but I have to believe that for some percent of the population, diet rules over the ability to have enthusiasm for exercise and the ability to deal with stress. Everybody's got stress. Some people feel it more than others.

<comment><USER33> Just to clarify, I am talking about natural exercise and natural non-stress :) In their small communities you get stress and excrete it, while in the average larger community you accumulate it. It is the background "stress radiation", low intensity nagging stress, that does all kinds of nasty things to us - <USER2> accurately, we do it to ourselves and each other. Similarly, I would not equate time in the gym or jogging in Manhattan to their exercise.

I don't know if by some fluke they have the perfect 3-6 ratio in their diets, but if you get your fresh food and exercise (and those beneficial worms ;) ), it does not matter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> rich-tea This one was quick. It took decades before anyone questioned the war on fat. Looks like the war on carbs is already at that stage.

Give it a few years and we'll start to see the bad affects of too much protein. Mark my words.

People who live a long time don't care about diets. Show me one who did.

<comment><USER34> > People who live a long time don't care about diets. Show me one who did.

Jack LaLanne?

He was one of the first modern evangelists of fitness and diet and lived to be 96, according to wikipedia.

Purely anecdotal but you did ask for a single example.</comment></comment>


Windows 10, coming July 29, free to Win7 and 8.1 users - <AUTHOR> https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/windows-10-faq

<comment><USER2> Maybe I'm just thinking old school here, but I don't see a way to download an ISO / USB image and get a product key. If we want to do a fresh install, anyone have any ideas how that's going to work?

<comment><USER3> I was going to ask the same thing. I am not 100% but I think I did see an option to do a format type of deal when I got the 8.1 upgrade.

In any event, even though my Windows 8 setup from 2 years ago is running excellent on my Intel SSD drive, I thing Windows 10 will be a big enough upgrade to warrant a fresh install. I already have most of my stuff backed up so it will be just a matter of reinstalling my applications.

<comment><USER4> FWIW, the upgrade process works very well. If your current setup doesn't have any issues, I wouldn't bother with a full repave.

I've upgraded a half dozen machines from 8.x to 10 throughout the past several months and all of them have gone smoothly. The only real issue I've had is that I needed to reinstall the driver for my ScanSnap scanner after one of the upgrades.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> What is the purpose of reserving your free upgrade? Is there any advantage or is it just some kind of capacity planning tool for Microsoft?

</comment><comment><USER6> This is surprising. I was expecting a release much later this year. Actually, I just tried installing Windows 10 in a VM using VirtualBox with OS X as my host OS and it hasn't really gone so well. I encountered lots of bugs and instability right from the initial setup and first 15 minutes of use. Right after initial setup, it froze while signing into my MS account (seems to be a common problem) so I took some advice I found online and rebooted skipping this step and opting to use a local account. This worked fine, but upon completing initial setup it flashed the welcome message multiple times "Hi" ... "Unknown User" .... "Hi" .... (I suppose for each of the two accounts it had just created). Then I launched Settings, and then Spartan, and the start menu stopped functioning... :) Really looking forward to this release. I just hope it's stable!

</comment><comment><USER7> Does anyone know if Windows 10 will support external graphics via thunderbolt like in the vaio Z [https://www.theverge.com/2011/10/24/2510531/sony-vaio- series...](https://www.theverge.com/2011/10/24/2510531/sony-vaio-series- review)

</comment><comment><USER8> And what if I fail to 'reserve' my free copy? Because that's excatly what I intend to do.

</comment><comment><USER9> I thought that Windows 10 was switching to a subscription model, but I can't find any details on that here. Did they decide to stick with the traditional pricing after all?

</comment><comment><USER10> Previous discussion here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9637292](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9637292)

<comment><USER11> Microsoft's forum sliding efforts are quite muscular, and serious.

<comment><USER12> If you check the history of the user who posted this, it is not Microsoft exclusive at all.

Why is there always a comment like this in every MS related story?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm skeptical it will work with Mac BootCamp

<comment><USER10> Yes, you'll want to wait until Apple puts out drivers for it.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9638084](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9638084)

<comment><USER14> Hopefully, when they do, it'll support _two_ external Thunderbolt displays on a MacBook Pro.

[http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/171650/boot-camp- on...](http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/171650/boot-camp-only-detects- two-out-of-three-monitors)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Here I thought Microsoft was changing.. Why not make the consumer/developer version free for all and only charge for the enterprise versions.

Is it so hard for them to realize that they can make more money in the long run if people use windows rather than promoting other free alternatives by putting a price on it?

<comment><USER16> > Why not make the consumer/developer version free for all and only charge for > the enterprise versions.

Probably because Microsoft makes a lot of money licensing the OS to PC and device manufacturers.

Most end-users already don't pay exclusively for Windows -- it's bundled in with the price of the device. What's the purpose of making Windows free if most people, with the hardware to run it, are already entitled to it?

<comment><USER15> If windows was free for schools, consumers and developers for the last 15 years I think the tech landscape would look much different than it does today in Microsofts favour. Also I dont think that it would affect their revenue that much. If i'm not mistaken most of their revenue comes from enterprise licensing.

<comment><USER17> Ummm windows even today, own 93% of the desktop market. You think giving it away would have improved on that? The only significant desktop OS that they could have taken share from is OSX where people are paying the same or more.

Microsoft makes money from selling OSs and from selling Office. The suggestion to stop selling OS's for some kinda freemium model, just doesnt make sense.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to Make Ink in the Middle Ages - <AUTHOR> http://www.medievalists.net/2015/09/20/how-to-make-ink-in-the-middle-ages/ <comment><USER2> I was always interested how things were done through the various ages of the civilization. I wish there were some comprehensive book(s) that would describe how civilization was "bootstrapped", from primitive tools and weapons to agriculture all the way to at least steam power.

<comment><USER3> It could make for a good reality/docu tv show; drop 50 engineers and scientists on a large desert island with many resources, and task them to rebuild civilization. It would be interesting to see how long it will take to get the required work just for food acquisition low enough so that one could engage in the civilization building. It would also be interesting to see whether there are big shortcuts, things that don't have to be redone.

Oh another thought: In our modern civilization, we require a lot of materials that cannot be found in the wild. In order to get them, we need to do complex mining - but to do that, we need simpler mining -- to do that, we first need some tools -- do make those, we need more basic tools. I kind of wonder what the shortest chain/tree of prerequisite tools and materials is from the stone age, to, say, a modern cpu (to make it easier, let's assume availability of resources is not an issue).

(I feel these thought experiements were kinda spurred by the finale of Battlestar Galactica, at least in my circle of friends.)

<comment><USER4> > I kind of wonder what the shortest chain/tree of prerequisite tools and > materials is from the stone age, to, say, a modern cpu

I suspect the chain isn't as long as you think, and you probably spend most of your time on the last steps.

The _HUGE_ win is steel. You can almost go from stone age to well into the Industrial Revolution with almost no intermediate steps based on knowledge alone (blast furnaces date to 1st century AD--the limitation on steel was lack of chemistry knowledge rather than engineering).

After that you start needing interlocking industrial infrastructure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I can't tell if the author is describing Iron Gall ink ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink)) but it's not especially hard to make in small quantities if you have the ingredients.

<comment> semi-extrinsic This is indeed a recipe for iron gall ink. Different parts of trees were used in different locations, but gall nuts were common around the mediterranean, hence the name. It is, as you say, easy to make, but it can ruin a good fountain pen due to its corrosiveness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> 12 Years a Slave had an interesting bit about how you can make ink by boiling maple bank, though it was far less thorough than Northup's descriptions of the agricultural processes for cotton and sugarcane. There should be a sow like How it's Made, but depicting historical methods.

<comment><USER7> The BBC historical documentary series "The Edwardian Farm" had some of this. It follows a year in the life on a farm set in the Edwardian era and the three documentarians are a historian and two archeologists. It's really well done and super interesting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> 'Quink' Blue Black ink is dyed blue, the blue dye fades over 20 years or so as the black iron ink, that is permanent, develops.

The blue dye is necessary as the black takes ~20 years to cure but should outlast the paper.

It is well worth considering the permanence of your daily ink, many Universities have tales of lost Professors trying to re-create the now-faded notes of their youth.

Will your original writing last for hundreds of years ?

Pencil is a potentially very long lasting mark.

<comment><USER9> Interesting you mention that—I like Pigma Micron pens ([http://www.jetpens.com/search?q=pigma+micron&v=2](http://www.jetpens.com/search?q=pigma+micron&v=2)), and they claim to be "archival." IIRC, Pilot G2 ink is also supposed to last for a very, very long time, and it's probably among the most-used pens in the world.</comment></comment>


Apple Computer: Scorpius Architectural Specification (1988) - <AUTHOR> https://archive.org/stream/scorpius_architecture#mode/2up <comment><USER2> I can't believe the paucity of comments on this article. Surely, this is of interest to HNers? Am I just the only one that's never heard of this? It sounds awesome, and confirms my personal bias that an Apple+Sun merger (prior to the Oracle acquisition) could have been terrific. We all complain about Apple's slipping quality these days, but they used to (?) have some amazing engineers.

Edited to add: Does anybody know why this got nixed? Would love to know the backstory to this.

<comment><USER3> 1988 would put this squarely in the 'Apple trying to convince Motorola to develop the 88k' era, most likely this was a backup plan in case they failed (they did, but by the time the 88k was killed off, they'd managed to get AIM founded and the 601 was 'in the pipeline')

<comment><USER4> There was an AMD 29000 Macintosh. But Apple execs were afraid that would piss off Motorola too much, and they still needed their parts. So then there was an 88k Macintosh. Execs decided that Moro didn't have the volume to compete with Intel, so they put them together with IBM to form AIM and develop PPC (they considered HPs Precision RISC as well) and went with that until it was clear even those two couldn't keep up with Intel- or with Apples direction.

<comment><USER5> Was there any serious consideration for an ARM Macintosh derived from Mobius, or was that strictly meant as an Apple II replacement and then canned in favor of Newton?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> You should probably link to this instead: [https://archive.org/details/scorpius_architecture](https://archive.org/details/scorpius_architecture)

(This way has more compatibility with various computers and software that you try to view it. Also, for some reason the "FULL TEXT" link does not link directly to the file, nor does there seem to be a link from there as far as I can find, but if you change "stream" in the URL to "download" then it will access the file.)

<comment><USER7> Thanks for this. I couldn't really read it on my iPhone otherwise

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Coincidentally (or not?), Power Mac G5's later used the PowerPC 970MP (a dual- core part) which also carried the code name 'Antares'.

</comment><comment><USER7> Really interesting architecture. The way they tried to make the processor units flexibly become SIMD or MIMD is thought provoking. Thanks for sharing this.

</comment><comment><USER9> So... how soon can we expect a HDL implementation of this architecture? :)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The archive (seemingly erroneously) says this was created in 1989. The text itself, however, says it was from 10/88.

</comment><comment><USER10> Did it have wicked glowing cooling rods?

[https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Cooling_rod](https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Cooling_rod)

</comment><comment><USER11> What was it?

<comment><USER12> Late-1980s Apple's plan for architecting their own RISC CPU. Never made it to production Macs.</comment></comment>


Show HN: Give stuff away on Craigslist more easily - <AUTHOR> http://www.nobenjam.in/

<comment><AUTHOR> This was a one-weekender project for me (which is about all I have time for these days), so it's pretty rough. But, it does work! And it's helped me clean out my garage without making a bunch of trips to Goodwill, which is something.

</comment><comment><USER2> This is crazy helpful, thank you! Have you considered doing a similar thing for paid items, maybe with a small commission?

<comment><USER3> I did for tickets: BoxRowSeat.com

Sells a few thousand $$ of tickets per month. People seem to like it. Especially hockey fans.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wonderful idea, is it geographically restricted?

I would pay (e.g. $0.50 per item for free items, more for paid items?) for this service.

Please throw up a simple Bootstrap theme (from e.g. [http://wrapbootstrap.com](http://wrapbootstrap.com)) for a bit of quick polish.

<comment><AUTHOR> Nope, it's available anywhere. The pickup instructions are free-form text. It's not localized to any language other than English though.

Thanks for the bootstap themes. Those will come in handy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> You sir, are going to collect a LOT of emails. Good work.

</comment><comment><USER6> Pretty similar to a side project I built called BidKat (www.bidkat.com). I was focusing on making the selling process easier, didn't really think about this side of it. Very interesting.

</comment><comment><USER7> Nice idea. You should probably make it clear that it uses Google auth, though.

</comment><comment><USER8> Can you put an example posting on the front page?</comment>