Record low housing inventory is 'freaking us out' says Redfin CEO - <AUTHOR> http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/17/real-estate-ceo-record-low-housing-inventory-is-freaking-us-out.html <comment><USER2> I own a 1br condo in the Bay Area that I purchased as an investment. I've considered selling but the very high transaction fees are a big deterrent. Consider:

7% typical agent + escrow fee (3% buyer, 3% seller, 1% escrow). May be able to get as low as 5%

~15% capital gains tax

~10% CA income tax

Even on a sale of a 1br condo, these fees can add up to $50-100k depending on the purchase price and net gain. That's quite a chunk of change! Enough to make one keep the unit on rental market

<comment><USER3> So you purchased a condo you don't live in as an investment in area where few but the super rich can even afford to own their own homes, and now you find, not that you'll take a loss if you sell it, but that you won't make as much money as you'd like (because of perfectly standard fees and taxes that were standard when you bought the place too), and can make more money renting it out instead...

...you're not looking for sympathy, are you?

<comment><USER4> What? His success reflects nothing on anyone else and doesn't have anything to do with sympathy. He/her is saying that current real estate rules aren't helping incentivize rational decisions to sell. Why would anyone do something that results in a worse (read: not the best) outcome for them?

<comment><USER3> Sure, I suppose we could tax rental income higher, and incentivize rational decisions to sell investment property.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Maybe it's true, but this article reads like self-serving PR: Houses are selling so fast! Redfin is desperate for inventory! But it's not a bubble so keep buying!

<comment><AUTHOR> I hesitated to post it because of that single-sourcing, but went ahead because I think the real estate market is often a good leading indicator of the economy as a whole. I was perplexed the other day to see that new housing starts have been falling for a couple of months.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> "The typical home went under contract in just 40 days, 10 days faster than April 2016. As a result, 1 in 4 homes sold above their list price."

I'm definitely seeing this in my area (Beaverton, Oregon). A house down the street sold in a few hours this past weekend for $500,000; which is $300,000 above what the owners bought it for a year ago ($200,000). They had a steady stream of people going in an out of the house the entire day.

I'm tempted to put my house on the market, but where would I move to? I love my job and don't want to move out of the area.

<comment><USER7> There's this new game in hot real estate markets where houses are listed intentionally well below market to attract traffic and encourage multiple offers. Here in the Bay Area it's standard operating procedure, and houses are expected to sell 20-30% over asking. The 'list price' is really just an opening bid, and anyone looking for houses in these markets is adding at least 20% in their head to ballpark it's actual likely sale price. This is a big change from the past, and from many existing markets that try to list prices at the top end of where they'd appraise, and were expected to be negotiated down by a single buyer, not up by multiple buyers.

<comment><USER8> From my recent experience in Bay Area homebuying, that 20-30% depends on the neighborhood, city, property, and timing. In one case we saw it was under 10%; in another it was over 35%! (It seems to be a fairly open secret in this town that the realtor involved in that latter case _really_ likes to lowball their asking price, though.)

My advice (for the little it is worth, as I am not a professional in these things) is not to assume you know the buffer to apply if you're trying to make an offer. We used our own previous attempts and our studies of comparable sales in the area to inform our offers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The article says that the new home construction is mostly going to apartments because tight credit means more people are renting. But then laments the low inventory for sale that is driving up prices. So which is it? Too many buyers or too many renters? Or is it a problem on both ends?

<comment><USER9> Other reports say that hedge funds and other investors bought up lots of houses after the crash, and are now renting them out through management companies. If true, that would both contribute to the lack of supply for purchase and capitalize on the demand for rentals.

<comment><USER10> In movie metaphor, Old Man Potter finally bought out Bailey Building & Loan when it went under in 2007, and now Bedford Falls is turning into Pottersville.

As far as I am aware, the FNMA/FDMC system only guarantees mortgage loans for properties with existing [appraisable] structures, so borrow-to-build lenders face significantly higher risks and lower liquidity. It's harder to buy undeveloped land and build a hovel on it from local materials, than it is to buy an overvalued 5-bedroom McMansion, built from twigs, bird spit, and a 10-year horizon for its planned obsolescence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I am not sure about the tight credit. We were approved for something we would not be able afford (too much house). It seems like the new wave is to target prime accounts with over the top amounts. Those account can quickly become subprime if the economy adjusts.

</comment><comment><USER12> Interesting, if true.

And if true, it'd also be interesting to know to what extent: the current overheated markets in SV/NYC are skewing the numbers; and (2) foreign investment (read: money laundering) may be weighing in on the numbers, as well.

<comment><USER13> Can you explain how one launders money using a condo? Typically this is done with a small business like a car wash or laundromat...

<comment><USER14> GP mentioned money-laundering in context of _foreign_ cash. Buying US real estate with money from overseas bribery/graft is the perfect way to legitimize wealth. Nobody in the US is going to check the overseas origin very thoroughly, and US real estate isn't as volatile as home-country assets.

<comment><USER12> _Nobody in the US is going to check the overseas origin very thoroughly,_

Well, plenty of people would very much _like to_. But in practice this is often quite difficult in many high-value jurisdictions, for various reasons.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Then again, it may be Chicken Little sky-is-falling time:

 _" [on Calculated Risk, housing economist Tom Lawler estimates] that US existing home sales as estimated by the National Association of Realtors ran at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.56 million in April, down 2.6% from March's preliminary pace and up 1.5% from last April's seasonally adjusted pace. Unadjusted sales as estimated by the NAR last month should be about 2.8% LOWER than last April's pace, with the "adjusted/unadjusted" YOY growth difference reflecting this April's lower business day count, as well as the different timing of Easter (April 16 this year vs. March 27 last year.)

On the inventory front, local realtor/MLS data suggest that the monthly increase in the number of homes for sale last month was slightly higher than last April's increase, and I project that the NAR's estimate of the existing home inventory for April will be 2.00 million, up 9.3% from March and down 5.7% from last April."_

EDIT: link: [http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/05/lawler-early- read-...](http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2017/05/lawler-early-read-on- existing-home.html)

</comment><comment><USER16>
       "It's a new landlord nation where everybody is renting out their basement.
       When somebody moves up they don't sell their old place, they rent it out to
       somebody else, and it's because they want to keep that 30-year mortgage for 30 years,
       and it's because they can easily find somebody on Airbnb who will take the place," Kelman said.

So this is Airbnb's fault?

<comment><USER17> replace airbnb with craigslist, backpage, or the local newspaper if you like.

The bigger point is that the rental pool is so large, that it's really easy to fill a vacancy even if it's just a single home rather than a large rental complex.

<comment><USER16> > replace airbnb with craigslist, backpage, or the local newspaper if you > like.

I am not informative on the housing market, neither do I work in related industries, so I could very well have the wrong impression here about this matter. But I haven't heard housing inventory reaching record low (like the current level) before, given CL/BP/local newspapers exist for a few decades by now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm in one of the hardest hit areas in Canada. Rental vacancies hit ~0% last summer. House prices jumped ~20% last year alone. Amusingly, the crunch has been so bad that our city has reached the point where we have approximately as many realtors as listings.

For someone who aspired to one day own a home, the realization that prices have jumped 125% over the last decade is disheartening to say the least.

<comment><USER19> Why is there not more construction to increase the amount of housing in your city?

<comment><USER20> That is the odd part isn't it? At some point the sale price of a new home has to incentivize building houses.

<comment><USER21> Isn't it the zoning rules that limit building densely?

The incentives of existing owners are against development.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> If you want to cut fees there are a huge number of options, from companies that charge 1% like [https://www.redfin.com/about/one-percent-listing- fee](https://www.redfin.com/about/one-percent-listing-fee) I just learned about these guys, not unique but certainly a great option for saving on 3%, [https://www.homebay.com/](https://www.homebay.com/) they do it for a fixed cost.

But I get it... I have been in my house for the 10 of the worst real estate year but on paper, my head is above water however if I sell I loose money.

</comment><comment><USER23> Time for some states to introduce a blanket 1% land value tax. I like the idea of returning it to all residents as a dividend. But otherwise use it to reduce sales taxes.

</comment><comment><USER24> This article kind of feels like a paid advertisement...but putting that aside for a moment, if it's true, it bodes well for those of us trying to rent out homes. I have a house in Atlanta I just had to leave to move for a job, and I am about to rent it out. I've priced it at the low end of the rental market but there's still a lot of fear that people will choose an apartment over a nice house.</comment>


Tatto-like Skin sensors could improve elderly, community, prenatal health - <AUTHOR> http://mitsloan.mit.edu/newsroom/articles/skin-sensors-could-improve-elderly-community-prenatal-health/ <comment><USER2> It looks like the link is broken.

<comment><USER3> https is definitely broken; http seems to work. Had to turn off https everywhere for this link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > _For instance, he said, sensors could transmit body signals to the wearer's > mobile phone and up to the cloud._

I definitely want to be advertised to based on the minute-to-minute condition of my body.

<comment><USER5> Let's be clear about it: sensors are fine, and so is collecting and analyzing data from them. It's the cloud-based business model that's the problem.

<comment><USER4> I completely agree - but I'm inherently distrustful of automatically uploading this data to the cloud, vs. doing local computation. How can I trust a company to keep my data private and secure?

<comment><USER5> I'm distrustful too. Actually, the litmus test I use for cloud companies is: is the data in practice mine or theirs? In case of sensors - can I grab the data log for myself? Export it to CSV, or at least an Excel file? If they offer a helpful "analytics" platform, do I get to upload the data I previously exported? Do I get to export the results of the analysis?

If the answer to some of those questions is "yes", then I can believe the company wants to provide me value. Otherwise it's a clear signal they just care about _extracting_ value from me. Most of the cloud startups fail this test, therefore I refuse to use (or even get interested in using) their "service".

Notably, the one company I end up using for everything cloud-related is Dropbox. No surprise there - they simply built "a folder that syncs".</comment></comment></comment></comment>


GQ on Social Media: Contempt and Confusion - <AUTHOR> http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201012/viral-me-silicon-valley-social-networking-devin-friedman

<comment><USER2> You could have chosen a better title for this submission. Why editorialize it with "Contempt and Confusion"?</comment>


Microsoft creates "The GMail Man" - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrkAuwaoFGg

<comment><USER2> <http://advertising.microsoft.com/windows-live-hotmail>

</comment><comment><USER3> Can anyone confirm whether Microsoft actually made this?</comment>


Comcast Enters Wireless Business With $45-a-Month Service - gm-conspiracy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-06/comcast-enters-wireless-business-with-45-a-month-service <comment><USER2> You can cut the irony with a knife. I left Comcast after they imposed data caps in my area which I struggled to stay under.

I have several roommates and we generally consume media via streaming services; primarily twitch and netflix. It seems to me that Comcast is using data caps as a 'streaming tax' for cord cutters.

<comment><USER3> None of the "unlimited" plans are actually unlimited. They just use soft caps where you're throttled to 2G speeds after you exceed your allotment, rather than charging you overages. Some carriers are starting to do this for _all_ their plans, so "unlimited" is now just becoming a weird and misleading term for one particular data cap. At least on AT&T, the "unlimited" plan isn't even the one with the largest cap, so it's particularly bizarre.

No doubt Comcast's "unlimited" offering will be similar. You may not get charged overages, but good luck watching more than a few movies per month with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's so ridiculously easy to start an MVNO now-a-days, someone here should start a Hacker News cell company that guarantees to be open and not do a bunch of bullshit with your data. You only need ~100k subs to be profitable, with all this privacy news lately I bet you can hit it with the privacy conscience consumer

<comment><USER5> I started an MVNO called Charge ([https://charge.co](https://charge.co)). It's not as easy as you think to hit 100K subs.

<comment><USER6> That looks great, I haven't seen a data only plan that works with phones - <AUTHOR> thought Google and Apple banned that. Its kinda hard to compete with the tmobile $30 plan, I might use this though.

<comment><USER7> t-mobile's $30 walmart plan no longer exists (i.e. if you have it you have it, but no one new can get it)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The chart says it all. TV fees per subscriber are still so lucrative that they will pay you to stay to the tune of $20/month. Not sure how sustainable that model is since you will not be able to charge more for that down the road, but maybe this works for shareholders in the short term.

As a general trend I only see this leading to greater consolidation in the market. Less providers means less churn which seems to be their target. Fingers crossed we get to the point where buried wires are no longer a limiting factor and more entrants can begin competing.

<comment> gm-conspiracy Comcast is late to the party as a "mobile content provider".

To "compete" in the US now, these companies must provide both content and mobile connectivity.

Reminds me of Douglas Rushkoff's "Exit Strategy" (vertical brand alliances), or some weird v2 of Prodigy, Compuserve, AOL.

Telecom offerings in the US is a sad state of affairs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> What is the catch on their "unlimited" marketing speak?

Also.. how are the towers going to handle this new "price war"? I've found them already overloaded in a number of places around the U.S.

<comment><USER10> They're hoping to offload most of the data to xfinitywifi access points that run off of the Comcast modem-router combos in people's homes and businesses.

Not unlike Google Fi, which also shifts between Wi-Fi and LTE for the "best" signal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> This kind of pricing is mediocre. The market research clearly shows them pricing support that is just below "gouged by incumbents".

Nothing to see here. Still waiting for a truly disruptive company to turn this oligopoly on its head.

</comment><comment><USER12> Wont last. Comcast tends to offer half first year, then the full price later. And it raises most prices 10% every year.

</comment><comment><USER13> >The Philadelphia-based company is using the new service, called Xfinity Mobile, to entice its 29 million subscribers to stick around as more options become available to watch shows and movies online.

This is interesting to me - Verizon's Fios service is the main competitor to Comcast in my area. If Comcast's goal is to keep people from switching away from cable and Internet, I wonder what Verizon has to gain by letting Comcast use their cell network.

<comment><USER14> > I wonder what Verizon has to gain

Wireless spectrum to run their LTE network. The MVNO agreement was part of a 2011 deal with a consortium of cable companies including Comcast to sell their wireless spectrum licenses.

[http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/02/technology/verizon_spectrum/](http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/02/technology/verizon_spectrum/)

<comment><USER15> Nice uncover!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "Now you can get our legendary Comcast customer service for your mobile phone too!"

I should offer to help them write ad copy.

<comment><USER16> Well, it is legendary I'll give them that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I can't ever imagine using Comcast again after being forced to wait through their customer service.

</comment><comment><USER18> What's the advantage of getting an AT&T unlimited plan at $90/mo when you can use an MVNO like cricket that uses AT&T's towers and pay $60/mo? Are people just locked into existing contracts?

<comment><USER19> Cricket has speeds throttled to 8Mb/s. VoLTE, Wifi calling, and some other features are only available to AT&T postpaid accounts (may be available now/soon?). Also postpaid account are allowed some domestic roaming, which can be important if you travel to rural areas that don't have native coverage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Good fucking luck with that. Comcast has lots of customers for its wired services only because it exists as a monopoly or duopoly in the markets it serves. Wireless is _way_ more competitive.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is this a result of net neutrality rules being over? Or net privacy rules being over?

Also what are the implications of Comcast subscribers already using Xfinity hotspots for free?

<comment><USER21> >Is this a result of net neutrality rules being over? Or net privacy rules being over?

No, people have been speculating about cable providers jumping into the MVNO game long before the current administration. It was logical once there was a lot of hotspots deployed. You need to look at more recent developments, like LTE-U getting approved: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum)

> Also what are the implications of Comcast subscribers already using Xfinity > hotspots for free?

Maybe/likely the voice traffic is QoS'd, maybe hotspot service gets a little slower when lots of subscribers are on the access point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I used to be a Comcast wireless customer, but it cost much more than $45/mo, and was called Comcast Metrophone :)

</comment><comment><USER23> Ha. No.</comment>


Why We Chose TypeScript Over FlowType - <AUTHOR> https://eng.lyft.com/typescript-at-lyft-64f0702346ea <comment><USER2> Pretty interesting numbers. FTA:

> StackOverflow questions: FlowType: ~900; TypeScript~38,000

> GitHub Issues: FlowType: ~1,500 Open, 2,200 Closed; TypeScript: ~2,400 Open, > 11,200 Closed

> GitHub pull requests FlowType: ~60 Open, 1,200 Closed; TypeScript: ~100 > Open, ~5,000 Closed

> npm download per month FlowType: ~2.9 million/month, TypeScript: ~7.2 > million/month

Community size or StackOverflow questions or, well, "popularity" are not exactly what makes a language or platform _good_, but I usually find that everything else being equal, there's a direct correlation. It's much easier being part of an engaged community.

<comment><USER3> Not to mention TypeScript has 10x the number of community typings as flow.

See slide here: [https://bcherny.github.io/Talks/why- typescript/#31](https://bcherny.github.io/Talks/why-typescript/#31)

<comment><USER4> Depending on what you work on, that can still be enough. I mainly used Flow in React (+ usual libraries) codebases, and was never missing any typings.

<comment><USER3> What sort of products did you work on? I often find that even with TypeScript I end up having to type a few libraries myself.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Joblint: test tech jobs for sexism, culture, expectations, and recruiter fails - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint <comment><USER2> It's a good idea, but penalizing jobs for mentioning pizza, beer or ping-pong is ridiculous. In fact calling those "hollow rewards" at all is ridiculous. They suggest a friendly, social atmosphere, arguably one of the more important features of a job.

They also call swearing "unprofessional", as if that's a bad thing. Again, it suggests a laid back atmosphere, where no-one cares if you swear when you're dealing with a particularly nasty bug.

A degree of political correctness can be beneficial, but overzealousness like this is counterproductive.

<comment><USER3> Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not- apply conditions for me.

Pizza, beer and ping-pong in the job description suggests it's a social requirement to be involved in those things: it's almost literally being described as part of the job.

It indicates that there is likely a poor attitude towards work-life balance and employee health and is probably a marker for hidden prejudices disguised as "culture fit". Frankly, I value those rewards highly negatively.

As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job? Why/why not?

Swearing at a bug and swearing at a potential employee are contextually different. I have no problem working in an environment where swearing at a bug is acceptable; swearing at an employee or colleague should be no more acceptable than swearing at a valued client (for clarity: not acceptable under normal circumstances).

The appropriateness of swearing is highly contextual - putting it in a job ad likely shows that you don't know where sensible boundaries are.

<comment><USER4> >Mentioning pizza, beer, ping-pong, or swearing in a job ad are all will-not- apply conditions for me.

Every job or job posting will never be everything to everyone. If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter.

>As a philosophical exercise: consider replacing pizza with sushi, beer with wine, and ping-pong with Zumba. Still a sensible ad for a tech job?

Sure, if you're Google or just have a lot of money. "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs rather than a hallowed tech lifestyle.

<comment><USER3> > If I considered those words a turn-off, then I'd be happy for job postings > that lend themselves so readily to such a quick filter.

This makes filtering jobs quite easy, true. But it shouldn't - this situation makes me unhappy about the state of the industry.

> "Pizza, beer, ping-pong" are mentioned because they're cheap LCDs

Yes, I identify that these are cheap items being passed-off as employee benefits: my evaluation of the company is affected by that as well. "Common" Denominators, not so much.

<comment><USER4> In your opinion, what should the "state of the industry" be like?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is the same kind of person who would write software to find anti-Islamic comments had he been born in Iran, or to hunt down dissidents if born in China. The kind of person who reflexively genuflects towards the current state-sponsored ideology, whatever it is (quick test: is Obama on your side?), because he loves the rush of feeling holier-than-thou.

As an example, the lint checks that "bro culture" is bad, but female-friendly (like Minted.com[1]) is assumed to be good. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. Very predictable. Like any neo-Puritan, he then comes after profanity, and beer, and even (god forbid) competitive- sounding job descriptions! His vision of the startup future: an HR drone stamping on a programmer's face, forever.

So how about thoughtlint? Avoid hiring rowanmanning, or anyone on their helpfully provided list:

[https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint#thanks](https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint#thanks)

People like this will spend their time being Adria-Richards-esque thought police rather than shipping code. Contrast with Max Levchin, who actually sold a startup for a billion-plus dollars:

[http://blakemasters.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels- cs183-...](http://blakemasters.com/post/21437840885/peter-thiels- cs183-startup-class-5-notes-essay)

      Max Levchin:  The notion that diversity in an early team is
      important or good is completely wrong. You should try to
      make the early team as non-diverse as possible. There are a
      few reasons for this. The most salient is that, as a
      startup, you're underfunded and undermanned. It's a big
      disadvantage; not only are you probably getting into
      trouble, but you don't even know what trouble that may be.
      Speed is your only weapon. All you have is speed.

If you want to work in an environment full of rowanmannings, that is your prerogative. Many others will select out and find places where people who enjoy bullying others with modern taboos on gender and the like don't self- appoint themselves as priests. Do you really want a team member who spends their free time getting people to upvote their new heretic-finding software to the top of HN?

[1] [http://www.quora.com/What-are-some-particular-things- Minted-...](http://www.quora.com/What-are-some-particular-things-Minted-does- to-be-female-engineer-friendly)

<comment><USER6> > This is the same kind of person who would write software to find anti- > Islamic comments had he been born in Iran, or to hunt down dissidents if > born in China. The kind of person who reflexively genuflects towards the > current state-sponsored ideology, whatever it is (quick test: is Obama on > your side?), because he loves the rush of feeling holier-than-thou.

Ah yes, someone who writes a simple tool to check for red flags and warnings common in job postings for their industry is totally a fascist looking to hunt down fellow citizens for the state.

> As an example, the lint checks that "bro culture" is bad, but female- > friendly (like Minted.com[1]) is assumed to be good. All animals are equal, > but some animals are more equal than others. Very predictable.

Bro culture is bad, it implies the people working and doing the hiring are looking for a very narrow type of person and aren't really open to having different kinds of people employed. Further, being woman-friendly is a huge plus, because usually that means women are able to access leadership roles in various capacities, something that isn't common in our industry. Unless, of course, you think that companies that actively look to correct that imbalance are the problem, in which case I would pose that you are the problem.

> Like any neo-Puritan, he then comes after profanity, and beer, and even (god > forbid) competitive-sounding job descriptions! His vision of the startup > future: an HR drone stamping on a programmer's face, forever.

Some people don't like profanity in the workplace or highly competitive environments, those people have a right to know that info up front when looking at job descriptions. Nobody is forcing anyone to use this tool, there is no censorship being applied here.

Moreover, mentions of beer and alcohol in a job post are highly suspect, as such posts will automatically exclude people who don't drink or are alcoholics. These types of places often base social activity around drinking and that can be highly alienating to a wide variety of people.

> People like this will spend their time being Adria-Richards-esque thought > police rather than shipping code. Contrast with Max Levchin, who actually > sold a startup for a billion-plus dollars:

Ah yes, because calling people out on dick jokes at a professional conference is exactly like the thought police. Also, that Max Levnchin has made money off of creating mono-culture workplaces doesn't mean that is appropriate or correct for every company or potential employee.

> If you want to work in an environment full of rowanmannings, that is your > prerogative. Many others will select out and find places where people who > enjoy bullying others with modern taboos on gender and the like don't self- > appoint themselves as priests. Do you really want a team member who spends > their free time getting people to upvote their new heretic-finding software > to the top of HN?

If you are selecting jobs based on those companies that will tolerate your sexism and delusions of oppression, remind me to never work anywhere you have, ever.

<comment><USER7> > Unless, of course, you think that companies that actively look to correct > that imbalance are the problem, in which case I would pose that you are the > problem.

I'm not the OP, but I think it's as unethical to be biased towards any group. A company should do it's best to ignore gender and focus on merit. Companies that 'actively look to correct that imbalance' make things worse and reinforce stereotypes with token hires.

> Ah yes, because calling people out on dick jokes at a professional > conference is exactly like the thought police.

Starting a Twitter vendetta rather than approaching people who made a schoolyard joke [http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/25/adria-richards- fi...](http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/25/adria-richards-fired- donglegate_n_2948161.html) makes things worse, not better.

<comment><USER8> > Companies that 'actively look to correct that imbalance' make things worse > and reinforce stereotypes with token hires.

Looking to correct the balance doesn't mean having some sort of quota for hiring women. It means getting rid of the bias that exists already, not tilting the scales in the other direction.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Sample test data for joblint.

        A team comprising of few Python superstars, vim gurus, emacs superstars is now looking for a software crafts(wo)man who would be interested in being part of the team to juggle a pool of challenging problems and use cutting edge tech to find solutions that are of top quality and guarantee a win over competiton.

        We pay better than competition, fail fast to learn early. We provide catered lunches from the best restuarants around. And inspite of tight deadlines, we would encourage a healthy work-life balance and not promise hollow benefits like beer/pingpong/nerf/dart/pool etc.

<comment><USER3> Your point here, as I understand, is to subvert the test by mentioning e.g. beer specifically not being a perk.

This illustrates an interesting problem of parsing natural language, but IMHO this should still give the same negative result anyway: why is beer an important consideration in a job ad _at all_?

You should rather spend the space telling me more specifically about what the job entails. You get a pass for talking about beer if the job involves classifying craft beers.

<comment><USER9> >> should rather spend the space telling me more specifically about what the job entails.

hmm. based on my experience, I can say that not every team/firm that is hiring would know for the fact as to what is the exact thing the recruit would be doing once on the job. In smaller organizations, there would anyway be lots of confusion on this. Bigger organization, it would be HR drones adding to the incoherence and drama.

So, said simply, "We need folks who are smart and who could get things done. Prior knowledge of alphabus-betabus-gammabus-deltabus --- zettabus would be a definite advantage but is no way a mandatory requirement. Look us up, get to know what we do and if interested, write back so we can talk!" could be one simple template that could be used by just about anyone. Isn't it?

<comment><USER3> A fair point, thanks, but I still think the company would be better served by nailing down what they need in employees rather than nailing down whether or not there is beer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My first thought is that this is a great filter.

My second thought is how is this any better than the automated resume screens that companies use on candidates?

<comment><USER11> It's not any better. It's fighting back.

<comment><USER10> The challenge is I can't think of anything better. It just seems like if one complains about too many guns in their neighborhood, there are better solutions than mounting a machine gun on the roof.

Perhaps I have sympathy because I'm a "Take the entire of resumes from HR" type of person. When I was job hunting, I thought that the screening mechanisms for jobs were all pretty bad, so I don't have a "Go to site X for better." I wonder if the net effect of this will be people sanitizing their offerings to hide their culture. Or will it be like attracting like?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I would move "frontpage" to its own warning category, not just "notice".

</comment><comment><USER13> Creating a new working environment straight jacket are we?

It's in diversity that we strive, we need bro companies, black tie/white shirt companies, and everything in between. Moreover I'm pretty sure that the boringnest job posting would have a very good score with this.

</comment><comment><USER14> The bubble rules are definitely in order :

[https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint/blob/master/lib/rule...](https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint/blob/master/lib/rule/bubble.js)

I'd argue that the _var temptations_ array is applicable to the "bro-culture" rules as well.

It's good there's one for tech :

[https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint/blob/master/lib/rule...](https://github.com/rowanmanning/joblint/blob/master/lib/rule/tech.js)

For the life of me, I never understood why any mention of an editor was even necessary most of the time. If there's a local copy of the codebase you're working on, how in the world does that have any bearing on what someone else on the same project is using? If it's major, that's what source control is for. If it's minor and nitpicky (I.E. tabs vs. spaces) plenty of editors can be configured for substitution on whatever standard that's adopted.

<comment><USER15> There's perfectly reasonable reasons to mention IDE, for example some companies have propriety Eclipse (or Emacs) extensions to support their code base or use collaborative work capabilities that are integrated with IDEs.

Environmental setup also has an impact, a company might use project files that automatically setup the environment and set common standards. Sure you can come in and rewrite all of those things in your favourite IDE which you then have to manually sync when things change, but that's a lot of overhead.

There's also some people who will only work at companies that use their favourite editor (particularly common in Java with IntelliJ) and will ignore job ads which mention Eclipse.

It can also act as signalling (i.e "we're willing to pay for you to have the best-of-breed development tools") much like jobs ads which specify developer monitor sizes or hardware (Macbooks, SSDs, etc).

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree with a lot of what you're saying actually, it's why this rule emits a notice rather than an error or warning. Considering that some of the rules are a little polarising, it would probably make sense to allow people to ignore certain rules. Thanks for the feedback

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This tool might be useful for quickly sifting heaps of job descriptions, but it is easy to fall victim to attaching too much meaning to its results.

Putting anyone into a category because of the wording of his statement is generally only of limited use.

You'll get a lot of false negatives - in this case, it won't save you from wasting time interviewing with an abusive employer who was smart enough to game political correctness and legal.

And some false positives - There is no employer without issues, but some issues weigh much heavier than others. I would rather work for an employer who is clinging to some sacred technology than under a devious manager. If I would rely on the wording, I could detect the former, but not the latter.

That said, this filter still can be useful, as soon as the rules become more sophisticated (they will, as the author is aware of this). But if it does, and becomes popular, be certain that this will also used by the other side, creating a race similar to spam vs. spam filters.

</comment><comment><USER17> I think this is a great project even if no one ever actually runs it against a real job description. By listing and categorizing the various rules, rowan has spurred a great amount of discussion on what makes a good job application.

</comment><comment><USER18> If someone made this into a cut and paste tool online, it'd be pretty successful I think

<comment><AUTHOR> Absolutely. I was planning to, but would happily endorse someone else if they were to build it – the command line presents a barrier to entry for less technical folks. Thanks for the feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Nice job, funny idea!

Mentioning Dreamweaver should be handled as an error rather then a notice. :-)

</comment><comment><USER20> If you haven't yet, you should do machine learning on actual job postings from companies that typify certain undesirable traits–assume Oracle is synonymous with "hates freedom"; one could find common words and phrases from Oracle job postings and add them to a "hates freedom" rule.

</comment><comment><USER21> This is great. I've been thinking about the reverse idea lately: a site for gender, cultural and educational-blind job searches and first-round interviews. At the very least, resumes, cover letters and initial skill evaluations could be "linted" and sanitized.

<comment><USER22> I was thinking about this recently too and was wondering if one could perhaps set up a service where you would hire a set of ghost writers to rewrite and manually sanitise all of the applications etc. for a job opening for a company (ideally one writer per job opening).

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> It's a fun idea but you'd have to be sifting through a lot of jobs to make automating the task worthwhile. I'd be worried a decent job would slip through the cracks because of being filtered out.

I'd suggest the best way to find jobs you're interested in would be to filter things with an inclusive filter, rather than an exclusive one. After running joblint, you'll end up with a list of jobs that survived, rather than ones that stood out.

I can't see this ever being genuinely useful during the next time I'm job hunting. I can see it being useful for recruitment companies who want to sanitise their listings, though. Maybe commercialise a site that can handle that as a service and aim it at them?

</comment><comment><USER24> how about checking for racism?

[http://www.inc.com/vivek-wadhwa/face-of-success-blacks-in- si...](http://www.inc.com/vivek-wadhwa/face-of-success-blacks-in-silicon- valley.html) [http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf](http://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acs-24.pdf)

"According to U.S. Census Bureau data, in 2008, blacks and Hispanics constituted only 1.5% and 4.7% respectively of the Valley's tech population —well below national tech-population averages of 7.1% and 5.3%. You hardly find any blacks in positions of leadership in Silicon Valley companies. There is at least an unconscious bias."

<comment><USER25> An intriguing idea! Can you suggest some language that would set off alarms for you?

Related: Douglas Hofstadter's satirical article on exactly that topic, which you reminded me of and which I'm glad I could remember enough of to find: [http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html](http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Cool! One feature suggestion: a .joblintrc file or configuration option. Some people are very proficient with Eclipse or Vim & would actually prefer to work with it for example. Nice tool- I hope recruiters & HR authors use it!

</comment><comment><USER27> the problem is that you are evaluating the recruiter, not the job.

There are many places, most famously google, which have shitty recruiters, but are actually decent places to work. (Google is legendary for it's poor taste in recruiters. I've known a few people who didn't like it an left, but most of the people I know there seem to think it's pretty good. The weird part, to me, is that it seems like the time between "I don't think google is great" and no longer working for google seems to be... shorter than at most companies.)

Really, it's a lot like the problem employers have; resumes and interviews are a shitty way to evaluate potential employees... but what else do you have? This is an example of the same thing in the other direction. The style of the recruiter is a shitty way to evaluate company culture... but what else do you have?

Either way, if you know someone on the inside? that's going to be your best channel for evaluation, really, in both directions. But... that has all sorts of other problems, many of them having to do with only being able to move within your existing social group.

</comment><comment><USER28> This is as useful is the filters recruiters use on candidates.

You can make up your own mind as to whether that is negative or a positive comment.

</comment><comment><USER29> git page would benefit from an example run.

</comment><comment><USER30> Does anyone know what font that is in the screenshot? It's rather nice (disregard the fact that all fonts look nice at that size).

</comment><comment><USER31> Would using the expression "guys and girls" in a job ad be sexist? Joblint would catch it.

<comment><USER32> Yeah, this is something to avoid in general. There are some people who hear "girls" the same way you do, so "guys and girls" translates as "men and women." But there are also some people who hear "girls" to mean, well, girls, so this translates as "men and girls" and sounds very weird. As people get older (say, from 20-year-olds to 30-year-olds), the balance shifts more and more toward the latter and more and more of the women you talk to will think there is something wrong with you if you call them girls, even if you also call men guys.

So yeah -- seeing "girls" in a job ad would make me guess the workplace consisted mostly or solely of young men who weren't used to being around women, and I would only apply if that was what I was looking for. Whether you think that's a problem is up to you. (I happen to think there are good reasons that some women don't like being called girls, even in the "guys and girls" context, but it's sort of beside the point in terms of writing a job ad, right?)

<comment><USER33> Let me ask you a question (assuming you are a man)

Would you like to be called a boy?

Imagine being addressed like this (in a group of 90% women)

"Hello ladies and boys"

Wouldn't that feel insulting? And weird?

<comment><USER34> Speaking as a man, if I were in a mixed group and addressed in various ways:

 _guys and girls_ \- OK. Very casual.

 _ladies and gentlemen_ \- OK. Somewhat more formal.

 _men and women_ \- Weird. Sounds stilted.

 _boys and girls_ \- OK, depending on tone. Would work better with an ironic tone when addressed to adults. Would sound stupid if expressed in kindergarten teacher tone.

 _ladies and boys_ \- seems a bit forced. Also, it makes me think of "ladyboys" (e.g. transgendered Thai prostitutes)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> whatever job spec i pipe, it tells "No issues found with the job spec!"

</comment><comment> Suresh-Urs nice idea.

</comment><comment><USER36> Seems overly simplistic - an advert from a girls school would appear under the sexism ruleset, an advert mentioning that they have a pool of company cars that you drive would fall foul of bubble ruleset.

<comment><USER37> _an advert from a girls school would appear under the sexism ruleset_

I'm not sure if that's actually a bug.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Mentioning gender is the biggest sin? Wow.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi sally. A sin? Definitely not. The reason gender mentions is an error is because it's actually illegal for a job spec to discriminate either way in terms of hiring. If you're getting false negatives with this rule, please let me know and I can revise it :)

<comment><USER39> Mentioning gender != discrimination.

"We are looking for smart men and women to join our team" isn't sexism. In fact, it may be the opposite - deliberately mentioning that the company welcomes women, which in your system would achieve the opposite effect.

"We don't believe in typical tech industry culture and strive to create friendly environments for both males and females." will also trip your filter. As an error to boot - not even a warning.

or perhaps even more benignly:

"We are an online retailer for women's fashion."

This isn't full of shit either, consider the following excerpts from real job postings:

"As a top ten defense contractor we take our responsibility very seriously, and we are privileged to support our customers and the men and women who get the job done."[1]

"Accenture is committed to providing veteran employment opportunities to our service men and women."[2]

"Shopbop is the premier online shopping destination for what's new and what's next in fashion and style, offering women around the world the best selection from both established and emerging designers."[3]

"We are an Equal Employment Opportunity/Drug-Free employer; we encourage veterans, minorities and women to apply for job vacancies."[4]

"The University of Massachusetts Amherst is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity employer. Women and members of minority groups are encouraged to apply."[5]

"Since 1901, Our Enterprise customer who is a Retail giant has offered a wide variety of quality apparel, shoes and accessories for men, women and children at our stores across the country."[6]

I'm sorry, but keywording on generic nouns and pronouns is _not at all_ a good idea.

[1] [http://jobview.monster.com/Engineer-Sr-Test-20-Job- Alpharett...](http://jobview.monster.com/Engineer-Sr-Test-20-Job-Alpharetta- GA-125235734.aspx)

[2] [http://jobview.monster.com/Federal-Virtualization- Engineer-J...](http://jobview.monster.com/Federal-Virtualization-Engineer-Job- Washington-DC-126083355.aspx)

[3] [http://jobview.monster.com/Sr-Software-Development- Engineer-...](http://jobview.monster.com/Sr-Software-Development-Engineer-Job- Madison-WI-126066197.aspx)

[4] [http://jobview.monster.com/Software-Engineer-Job-Altoona- PA-...](http://jobview.monster.com/Software-Engineer-Job-Altoona- PA-126004034.aspx)

[5] [http://jobview.monster.com/Software-Engineer-Job-Amherst- MA-...](http://jobview.monster.com/Software-Engineer-Job-Amherst- MA-125965776.aspx)

[6] [http://jobview.monster.com/Senior-Software-Engineer- Enterpri...](http://jobview.monster.com/Senior-Software-Engineer-Enterprise- Job-Redmond-WA-124636558.aspx)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Political correctness, enforced by a software busy-body. Mind your language people - neo-puritains are watching!</comment>


Ask HN: What does this spying thing mean for non-Americans? - <AUTHOR>

Majority of the "freedom-loving" people who are opposing the NSA snooping on their private communication seem to be okay with NSA snooping over rest of the world (non-Americans).
From what I read they are mostly using statements like "it is unconstitutional". Well, why should my communicate be subject to US constitution in first place ? I know Google, Facebook and other companies are American companies and that tells me to do less and less business with American companies.
Ancient Indian Sanskrit saying says "Vinaashkaale viparita buddhi" => While on path of destruction people lose their mind and take decisions to hurt themselves even more.
As a non-american I wonder if I should support Mozilla and Reddit or shut stay mum and watch the show ? <comment><USER2> This is smoke and mirrors. The NSA intercepts ALL communications outside the USA. The British Commonwealth intercepts ALL communications inside the USA in exchange for access to the NSA's data relevant to the UK.

</comment><comment><USER3> confucius say: "he who trades liberty for safety ends up with neither", no wait, that was actually Ben Franklin, right ? [http://www.whatourforefathersthought.com/Quotes.html](http://www.whatourforefathersthought.com/Quotes.html)</comment>


Ask HN: How long does it take to learn a new keyboard layout? - <AUTHOR> I type at 130 WPM with QWERTY.  Two questions:
1. For those who have done it, how long does it take to learn a new keyboard layout (e.g. DVORAK, others) and exceed your previous speed.
2. Is switching back and forth easy to do (like speaking two languages fluently)? <comment><USER2> I am typing fluently this using the Colemak layout and I can switch easily to Qwerty. Colemak is the easiest/fastest layout for me. It is like driving stick vs automatic, I can change whenever I want without thinking about it. I also tried Dvorak. However, shortcuts like CTRL+C were not possible with one hand anymore. This was a no go.

The hardest part of learning a keyboard layout is the first week. During this week you cannot type on the autopilot at all (even my qwerty skills were fucked up).

I recommend starting learning a new layout during a holiday because it will break your productivity. For training, you can use [http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/index.html](http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/index.html), which has support for Colemak.

After 4 weeks of typing more than one hour per day, I managed to hit the 50 WPM at Colemak. It is also important to type 30 minutes per day using qwerty during this 4 weeks so that you will not lose your qwerty skills.

<comment><USER3> There are some shortcuts like ctrl+O and ctrl+P that are easier with one hand on Dvorak. I personally have ctrl c, z and v in two places on my Dvorak keyboard. The Dvorak locations and qwerty locations. It's not particularly difficult to make a keyboard like this in Microsoft keyboard creator or Mac Ukulele.

Alternatively many people use Dvorak with QWERTY keyboard shortcut locations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the problem with most of the layouts is that they are typist-oriented (e.g. people who enter mostly English text), so they mainly focus on the letters. Programmers' workflow is different.

I'm in the process of switching to an Ergodox keyboard and I logged all my keystrokes (on a regular QWERTY keyboard) for about a week. My work was maybe 80% writing code and 20% writing emails, Slack messages etc. Here are the top 10 most frequently used keys:

         Key      #     %
      </comment><comment>---+</comment><comment>+---
      Down      14139 11.3
      Up        11514  9.2
      Backspace  6748  5.3
      Right      6529  5.2
      Space      5409  4.3
      Left       4908  3.9
      Tab        4847  3.8
      R Ctrl     4665  3.7
      E          3937  3.1
      L Shift    3824  3.0

There's only one letter there!

The rest of the keys are pretty much in the same position in all the layouts discussed here. Therefore I think significant speed improvements for programmers can only come with a more radical re-think of a keyboard layout.

<comment><USER5> I wouldn't encourage anyone to switch for speed.

Switch for comfort.

Repeating in full a comment I made 5 months ago [0]

I learnt during the summer after the first year of university, when I was working on a small summer project at the university. It can't have been more than two months, probably more like one. I didn't touchtype Qwerty, although I could type fairly fast while looking at the keyboard.

I made the "tent" showing the keyboard layout, as described at [1].

It's simply more comfortable to use Dvorak. The clearest way I have to show that is by tapping fingers on the table: it's much easier to go small-to-large than large-to-small. On Dvorak, that means typing digraphs like sn, st, sh, nt, nh, th is optimized (Qwerty equivalent: ;l ;k ;j lk lj kj — what a waste of easy-to-type combinations!). The reverse combinations are rarer in English: ht, hn, hs, tn, ts, ns.

All the rare letters are on the bottom row, so the most awkward movement — bottom row then top row — is minimized.

Added to that, hand alternation is much better, which is also more comfortable. Taking my first sentence, "after" and "was" are all on one hand, and trigrams like "ear" (learnt), "rst" (first), "ect" (project) are common, yet ugly to type on Qwerty.

If you can touchtype Qwerty, type this to simulate typing the first two sentences:

G pdaolk hfoglu kjd ;fmmdo aykdo kjd ygo;k tdao sy flg.do;gktw ,jdl G ,a; ,sovglu sl a ;mapp ;fmmdo roscdik ak kjd flg.do;gkte Gk ialqk ja.d nddl msod kjal k,s mslkj;w rosnanpt msod pgvd slde

To remain closer to the defaults of the world, I've never bothered with Colemak or similar. I can add Dvorak to any computer I use, which I will occasionally do if someone asks me to use their computer to take minutes in a meeting or similar.

[1] [http://www.dvzine.org/zine/20-21.html](http://www.dvzine.org/zine/20-21.html)

[0] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16568867](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16568867)

<comment><USER3> Dvorak is preinstalled on every modern computer. For that reason I agree it only takes a minute to enable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 1\. It's only one data point, but here's a chart of my typing speed while learning a new fully custom layout:

[https://xsznix.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/screen- shot-2016-...](https://xsznix.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/screen- shot-2016-05-16-at-16-25-03.png)

2\. I use QWERTY on mobile devices, Dvorak on standard keyboards, and RSTHD on split ergo keyboards, and I can switch between all of them without any hassle. It helps if you use a different keyboard form factor for each layout, but even if not, I don't think it's difficult to maintain adequate fluency on QWERTY when you need to use someone else's computer.

</comment><comment><USER7> I switched to dvorak and would never go back.

1\. It took me two weeks to get to ~35wpm, and it was absolutely grueling. The next two months I ramped up to ~80. Now I'm slightly faster than my top qwerty speed (qwerty is incredibly hard to type in dvorak btw), but the investment is worth it. Typing is very easy, and I no longer have RSI issues.

2\. I use my family's computer from time to time. There's a break in period / your brain literally flips. It's a very unique experience. I think if I switched more often I'd be able to maintain performance in both.

Thinking a little more about it, learning to type in a new format was such a strange and enjoyable experience. You feel your brain struggling and one day something just kind of clicks, a dam breaks way, and your fingers float above the keyboard, the words appearing on the screen and you're not sure how.

</comment><comment><USER8> What drives your desire to switch?

I ask because if it's ergonomics, you may want to explore an ergo board, e.g. the Kinesis Advantage: [https://jakeseliger.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts- on-the-k...](https://jakeseliger.com/2011/07/17/further-thoughts-on-the- kinesis-advantage-unicomp-space-saver-and-das-keyboard%E2%80%94two-years- later). There are others as well, like Ergodox-EZ.

<comment><USER9> Highly recommend the EZ. I am never going back.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I switched from QWERTY to Dvorak 16 years ago. At my best I could do 110wpm with QWERTY. I've rarely attained more than 90wpm on Dvorak, maybe, andI'd expect a bit less day to day.

1\. Judging by the times I've tried TypeRacer, I've never exceeded my old speed. But that's OK; I changed because I was having problems with my wrists, and I was worried about my career. That destroyed any interest I might once have had in typing quickly.

2\. Yes - but I switched to Dvorak not long after I started using a split keyboard, and I think that really helped keep the muscle memory for the layouts separate. No problem for me typing Dvorak on spit keyboards, and no problem typing QWERTY on non-split keyboards. I can still type at ~70wpm on a non-split QWERTY keyboard, and people that have seen me do that are typically surprised to later find out it's not what I'm used to.

QWERTY on a split keyboard, I can do, but I have to look at my hands while I do it. Dvorak on a non-split keyboard, I find very difficult. But luckily I basically never have to do it.

(One thing I would also add: it's good to be able to type fast, because that lets you rattle out whatever it is you currently have in mind. Don't let anybody tell you that being able to type quickly isn't at least sometimes useful. But, in general, you can get away with typing a lot slower than you think.)

</comment><comment><USER11> I switched to Dvorak at least 10-15 years ago (and have been enjoying it ever since) so I can't tell you exactly how long it took me, but I'd say to expect to have lower productivity in Dvorak for a month. By then you should be at least near enough to your QWERTY proficiency that the switch will no longer be hurting you.

Advice for learning: Start with basic typing exercises that drill in the muscle memory. Then switch over and keep a keyboard layout visible. Switch back to QWERTY when you need to. When you rarely need to look up letters but still need to think sometimes, switch permanently and try not to switch back to QWERTY.

On keyboard shortcuts: while some such as copy and paste are worse because they involve the right hand, I find many keyboard shortcuts are actually better on Dvorak despite being designed with QWERTY in mind. J and K for instance (think vi navigation) are really convenient. There are a bunch I feel that way about, and that's in addition to other characters used in programming often being more convenient as well, such as brackets/braces and hyphen/underscore.

On fluency: I definitely have a hard time switching back to QWERTY. Funny story: an interview didn't go well once when I had to complete a programming task on one of their computers. It was Windows (I use Mac) with a QWERTY layout! I must've looked like I didn't know how to use a computer. But I'm typing this paragraph in QWERTY and it's doable. Most of what makes me feel slower on QWERTY is just that it's so much less comfortable to type in than Dvorak.

</comment><comment><USER12> If you're already typing 130 wpm on QWERTY, wow, and don't bother with other layouts. You might eek out a bit more speed, but it's a lot of pain for not much gain. I've never exceeded my QWERTY speeds and I've been typing DVORAK for over ten years now. I'm sticking with DVORAK because I find it more comfortable and, as an added bonus, it keeps the kids off my computer.

</comment><comment><USER13> I've twice spent a few months on alternate keyboards. Once Dvorak and once Colmak. (about an hour a each day of dedicated practice plus using it for work and play each day.)

Unfortunately, at the time I was moving between several computers, some of which weren't mine, and I could switch them all over. This daily switching back and forth was painful.

In the end, it wasn't really worth it. It took at least a month to get back to being able to type without mistakes with QWERTY, and the first few days were torture. Took months to get back to my old speed.

You know that scene from Space Jam where the NBA player looses his talent, tries to play with some kids on the street, gets crushed, and wanders away in confusion and sadness... well, that was pretty much me. [https://youtu.be/mWeII9xkTnw](https://youtu.be/mWeII9xkTnw)

</comment><comment><USER14> It took me about three weeks to learn Colemak. I practiced with keybr.com but Klavaro is also good. It was not easy to switch back and forth to qwerty, I forgot how to touch type with qwerty.

If you are going to need to switch to qwerty often and you already type at 130 WPM I would not recommend learning another layout.

</comment><comment><USER15> I switched in about a month. I never changed the keycaps, so Dvorak was touch- typing only from day one (try all the keys until you find the one you want, looking doesn't help). Now when I use QWERTY I need to look down.

My speed is about the same as it was, but I wasn't looking for more speed.

</comment><comment><USER16> I learned Dvorak in high school and was proficient in it after a couple weeks. In addition to actual practice, I found it helpful to just practice mentally during downtime.

I used Dvorak exclusively and lost the ability to type on qwerty keyboards. This became pretty inconvenient, so I re-learned qwerty, but then I couldn't type in dvorak any more.

A while later I practiced dvorak again and have been able to switch back and forth without issue ever since (even though I don't use dvorak very often now).

I found that dvorak wasn't actually that good for programming due to the positioning of punctuation, math, and auxiliary keys. It's also annoying for gaming or using hotkeys in general (especially copy + paste).

</comment><comment><USER17> I learned QWERTY first in high school around 2000. An hour a day over, 5 days a week over a month to get it down. Probably a few weeks of practice to do it without hesitation.

I learned Dvorak in 2005 or 2006. I spent about 4-5 hours, over 2 evenings with a free typing tutor program. After that it took me about 2 weeks internalize it. At that point I was probably the same speed or faster than before.

After that I used QWERTY for a few hours a week for the next few years. For public, and other peoples computers. After a little practice it was easy to switch back and forth without issue.

Around 2012, I stopped having to use public and other peoples computers so I stopped using QWERTY but maybe once or twice a year.

As of now I can with a little bit of mental effort switch back to using QWERTY, but nowadays I often miss type a few keys in QWERTY. I am slowly loosing it.

Some related observations:

For the longest time I have been forced to use QWERTY for all onscreen keyboards like my cell phone and tablets. Recently I got a Chromebook, and it let me have onscreen Dvorak. Turns out my brain is currently wired for onscreen QWERTY. I'm not sure if I really should put any effort into learning an onscreen keyboard.

I can type both Mandarin Pinyin, and the Japanese equivalent. For whatever reason setting up these input systems hard locks QWERTY underneath them. I have tried to do the mental gymnastics to use QWERTY to write in these other scripts and it is just too frustrating. I end up finding a way to switch it.

</comment><comment><USER18> I've been using Colemak for a few years now, and I find it very easy to switch back and forth (mainly because I have to regularly). I became fluent in colemak in around two weeks to a month of pretty much exclusive usage. I type faster in Colemak, because ironically I still can't touchtype QWERTY.

My tips are: print your new layout and stick it in your FOV for where you usually type. I used the new layout on my phone, which helped with memorising placement. Try and mentally map old keys -> new keys, so that until you have the muscle memory there, you'll at least know it cerebrally.

</comment><comment><USER19> I switched to Dvorak in a weekend (~8 hours) using something like [https://learn.dvorak.nl/](https://learn.dvorak.nl/)

It took me about a month to get comfortable and stop making mistakes and I switched back and forth regularly for the first two years (working in IT).

Now I mostly use Dvorak and when I switch it's not a problem but my typing speed in Qwerty is about a third slower.

Having done it, I'm happy with it but I probably would have learned Colemak instead because it's closer to Qwerty and would make those infrequent switches easier.

</comment><comment><USER20> I've switched from qwerty to programmer dvorak 11-12 years ago. It took me 2 weeks of practicing to get comfortable with it.

I constantly switch between dvorak and qwerty (as much as 4-5 times in a minute), and it takes no effort, I'm more or less equally comfortable with both of them.

I'm also a designer, and I didn't bother relearning the shortcuts on design programs on dvorak, so I switch back to qwerty with a shortcut when I use them, than switch back to dvorak for typing.

If you switch to dvorak, I also suggest giving up using arrow keys and using emacs/vi keymaps for moving the cursor around, it will be much more efficient.

I really suggest taking a look at programmer dvorak[0] if most of the typing you do is writing code. It's more efficient and relaxed to use commonly typed characters ( &[{}(=*)+]!;,.:<> ), at the expense of having to use shift for numbers.

[0]: [https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/](https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/)

</comment><comment><USER21> I switched to Dvorak about ten years ago then switched back about five years ago. I switched back because I use swipe text input on phones which works much better (only?) with QWERTY, and swipe text became and still is very important for me.

Although I could type faster and much more comfortable on Dvorak I regret ever making the change, I feel I am still not as fast on QWERTY as I was before I switched to Dvorak. I make a lot of mistakes typing now and can't seem get much faster or more accurate with practice.

It was very difficult for me to do both or switch between the two - I was much better at Dvorak until I gave it up. My QWERTY was prbly 30 wpm max while using Dvorak. It helps to switch context or use different keyboards for switching. I think I got to 90 wpm Dvorak, QWERTY is now around 65-70.

I have problems typing comfortably and motor learning / coordination issues that might make me unusual, but I have read that fluency with both is rare and very difficult.

Oh shortcuts were more annoying in Dvorak, only other issue aside from swipe text.

<comment><USER22> With the Swiftkey app you can swipe with Colemak or Dvorak, if you want.

<comment><USER23> @pmoriarty: Speaking speculatively, swiping on Dvorak might be harder for the machine to recognize because more common English letters are on the home row instead of separated like QWERTY.

@GatorD42: I hear a decent proportion of people who complain or fear that keyboard shortcuts won't work well in Dvorak. But in my own experience, I have no problems whatsoever (even common keys like Ctrl+C/V/X/Z/W/A/S/T). One caveat though, is that many shortcuts are on the right side and prefer using Right Ctrl - but some machines like the entire Microsoft Surface tablet/laptop series omit Right Ctrl which makes keyboard shortcuts absolutely infuriating.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I typed 130-150 WPM with 160-170 WPM bursts on QWERTY, the layout I grew up typing for most of my life.

I switched from QWERTY to Dvorak over the course of 8~ months and attained 120~ WPM with no discernible difference in comfort. I then switched from Dvorak to Colemak over the course of 3~ months. I was back to 130-150 WPM but lacked any ability to "burst" at faster speeds for short periods of time. I felt slightly more comfort typing in Colemak than I did QWERTY/Dvorak but it interrupted workflow too much and I ended up switching back to QWERTY. After my experiences, I firmly believe any significant benefits people get from switching keyboard layouts isn't from switching keyboard layouts, but rather, from learning how to type properly. This goes for comfort, speed, and accuracy. I know of very, very few people who I would define as "excellent" typists (>120WPM) claiming any benefit from switching layouts.

Switching back and forth for Colemak/QWERTY is easy for me, I struggle with Dvorak as I am out of practice ("use it or lose it").

Learn to Stenotype if you truly want speed [0]. If you switch keyboard layouts it should only be because you never really "learned how to type" or if you feel slight comfort gains are worth breaking existing workflows over.

On Mobile I use a QWERTY layout for English and flick input for Japanese.

E: Also I believe there are studies that "micro-movements" are more harmful in the long term, causing more RSI. So Colemak's smaller, more comfortable movements may have been long-term harmful. I can't find these studies but I faintly remember reading about this. If anyone has any proof one way or the other I'd love to see it.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype)

</comment><comment><USER25> I'm on colemak and I am typing this by voice because of carpal tunnel I doubt any relation just poor posture, but I cannot type on qwerty anymore. I forced myself to learn colemak in about three months by having instant message conversations, it was a pain but it worked well I also used the provided application on Windows (typefaster)

</comment><comment><USER23> I switched from QWERTY to Dvorak about 15 years ago. I used to type ~80 WPM on QWERTY. For the first few weeks on Dvorak, I was typing at a tedious ~10 WPM. Only after about two months did my speed get up to a respectable pace (probably 60+ WPM). Nowadays I can do 120 WPM on Dvorak. The retraining was well worth it for me, because I work many hours at the computer, and my fingers move a lot less when typing English text on Dvorak.

As for switching back and forth, I can still use QWERTY, but it feels awkward like "dancing with two left feet". I stumble, pause, make mistakes, and correct them. But numerically speaking, I still type 60+ WPM on QWERTY when I need to, despite the discomfort. More details in [https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in- dvorak](https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak)

</comment><comment><USER26> It took me 2 weeks to "switch" to Dvorak in 2008.

Your brain will unlearn the touch position of QWERTY, and looking down at a QWERTY, keyboard when you type will throw you off big time at first.

Eventually you'll get used to looking at a QWERTY keyboard and typing Dvorak, which is interesting (my mind maps different letters between the layouts).

You can relearn QWERTY fairly easily once you're confident in Dvorak, and you'll be able to type in both, but I don't ever find the need to type in QWERTY. When helping a coworker out on their computer I'd just switch their settings and switch back if I was going to be working there for awhile. Additionally you can get a WASD / CODE keyboard which has a hardware Dvorak dip switch, which is in Dvorak outputting to a system expecting QWERTY.

</comment><comment><USER27> I haven't done the switch to DVORAK. But maybe this will help. I have switched between number oh phone keyboards, and their special character mappings are all different. I went from a Custom mapped droid4 to a blackberry priv. It took me 3 weeks of steady usage before I stopped hitting alt+m for double quote, which generated a period on the Priv. then I got a Gemini PDA, and this is a third mapping, that is closer to a desktop mapping, but the camma and period are different. It took me about 3 weeks to stop making mistakes. The Gemini PDA is not my main device, and I switch between the Priv and the Gemini. It is rare that I use the wrong mapping now.

</comment><comment><USER28> Roughly a week when I did it. Learning it and getting comfort wasn't hard at all.

Switching between the two was a little difficult if I went into autopilot, but was manageable.

The worst part of the experience was if anyone else touch my keyboard I would have to explain to them that it isn't qwerty, and wish them best of luck. Most of the people didn't understand why I would do such a evil thing to my keyboard. After a while it became such a thing that I actually went back to qwerty just so I wouldn't have to listen to people talk about it.

</comment><comment><USER29> just another anecdata: I started learning Dvorak when I entered university, where I learned CS while never having really programmed/coded before (limited to HTML/CSS). Some of my classmates have touch-typed at that stage while I still type inefficiently (looking at my keyboard mid sentence and whatnot). I decided to move to Dvorak to force myself to touch type instead of trying to restrain myself from looking at my keyboard. It took me a whole semester on and off, mostly on learn.dvorak.nl, practicing 30-60 minutes a day. I still type on QWERTY for the first semester, and switched full time when I already feel comfortable touch-typing and preferring Dvorak in the second semester. Related to another thread a few days ago, for me it's not about the speed, more about the comfort (ergo) and not having to break / switch context to look at the keyboard while I code / write. I type at the same speed or slightly slower than I did on QWERTY, but my thoughts flow easier. I use MessagEase on my smartphone for one handed typing.

<comment><USER30> MessagEase is my favorite (and only) mobile keyboard. I am happy to see someone else using it in the wild!

<comment><USER29> Yeah it's rare. My friends are still bewildered upon seeing I type with it. I've managed to convince 2 other people to use it though!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I learned dvorak in high school over summer break. It took about 3 weeks to be up to my qwerty wpm.

I actually had a difficult time going back and forth for a while. Eventually my brain decided that a heavy mechanical keyboard (my model m at home) was dvorak, and lighter non-mechanical kbs (school) were qwerty.

I had to switch over to qwerty to do pair programming easily a few years back. Finally got to the point where I could type interchangeably, but I'm worried that my muscle memory will lose qwerty again over time, now that I use it less.

</comment><comment><USER32> 1\. I became proficient (fluent) in a new keyboard layout within a few weeks. At that point my typing speed was on par with qwerty (not faster though, I believe). Fully adapting to a new keyboard layout went a bit faster than I had anticipated.

2\. Switching back and forth was NOT easy. Whenever I used a new (qwerty) computer I would fumble and it would take minutes before I could type normally at all! Perhaps if one switches between two layouts often it becomes easier.

</comment><comment><USER33> 1\. It took me about a month. However, I wasn't working at the time so I didn't need to switch back or worry about being productive. I only typed about 60 WPM and I reached the same level.

2\. It probably was at the beginning but after using Dvorak for so long, I need to long at the keys while I type on a QWERTY layout. I suppose you could keep both up if you had some reason to do so.

</comment><comment><USER34> 1\. 3-6 months to get comfortable, about 1 year to match speed. I've typed Dvorak for about 10 years. I'm probably not any faster, but I like dvorak a lot.

2\. Switching is easy; I switch all the time at work. Windows makes me login with qwerty (you get what you pay for? :P).

You may never type 130wpm on dvorak/colemak/&c but life is too short for qwerty.

</comment><comment><USER35> I'm touch-typing what my OS thinks is an American keyboard layout on a German keyboard. Physical muscle memory counts for a lot more than mere efficiency, in my book. However, if I were to need to switch to a different layout for physical health reasons, I have no doubt that my brain would adapt, as it's the initial part that is difficult, in that regard.

</comment><comment><USER36> The real question is: How long does it take to UNLEARN an old keyboard layout?

I tried that switch to DVORAK before. After a few weeks, I could blind-type slowly in DVORAK, but whenever I went a bit faster, my QWERTY routines would kick in.

Interestingly, I also forgot how to spell many English words. It turns out I only remembered how to type those words on a QWERTY keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER37> Took me about a month of near-total use to get back to the point where I felt fluent.

I find it very difficult to switch back and forth, but not impossible. Mostly that just means my secondary layout is pretty error-prone.

</comment><comment><USER38> No long-term experiences in the same language but I'm typing in CJK & English. I think it's quite a similar situation. When I typing CJK in desktop & mobile, it's also a slightly different way to choose the word but my brain able to handle it well.

</comment><comment><USER39> Well, I did a minor switch from Azerty (iso) to Qwerty (ansi) and it took maybe a week or two.

Edit: I get about 140wpm with qwerty and similar with azerty, but switching between them takes some time to get up to speed. Maybe because they are so similar.. :)

</comment><comment><USER40> After ~30 years of using a keyboard, I've never learned to type properly, though I guess I'm somewhat fast (or fast enough). Admittedly, I'd be way faster on QWERTY vs DVORAK if I were to try one of those.

</comment><comment><USER41> I'm interested in what reasons there are to switch besides speed, which I assume is not a problem unless you are a stenographer i.e. I cannot think of code faster than I can write for longer than a fraction of a minute.

<comment><USER2> It is an amazing experience when you can type a word without moving your fingers at all (this happens when all the letters that you need are on the home row).

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Are you actually limited by your current typing speed?

<comment><USER7> I worked with a programmer in his 40s who hunt and pecked. A generous estimate of his speed would be 10 wpm. He would always yell back at anyone critiquing his typing: Think more, type less.

He was one of the better programmers on the team. Whether this was because he was forced to make good decisions to limit the amount of code on the screen or not, who knows. I think the only critique I had was that his comments were... a little lacking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I tried Dvorak for a month a few years ago. For me it was just useless agony, not only with key positions but also with app/OS shortcuts that are very much designed for qwerty layout.

I have since switched to a split ergonomic keyboard (Diverge 3) and adjusted the layout somewhat (kept qwerty, but put all the modifier keys in custom locations). That took me about a month to exceed my previous speed. Typing on standard keyboards when needed is not a problem either.

I never cared to measure my typing speed though.

<comment><USER44> It would be interesting to design a keyboard whose key arrangement is weighted toward standard shortcut combinations. Maybe put them mostly on the left hand side to allow (right-handed) mousing without looking at the keyboard.

<comment><USER43> Keyboards like Diverge and Ergodox are fully programmable so nothing's stopping you from doing that today!

Also, I found that putting a small touchpad^ in a thumb-accessible area (near where a laptop touchpad would be) is a good enough replacement for a mouse.

^ [http://www.ergonomictouchpad.com/](http://www.ergonomictouchpad.com/)

<comment><USER44> Well yeah, but what about the rest of the keys? It's one thing to put all the shortcut keys on the left or right side, but quite another to arrange the keys so that typing is...possible.

<comment><USER43> You don't have to change from the qwerty layout for general typing.

For example, you can program the keyboard in such a way that pressing X+A sends Ctrl+C keys to the OS, where X is a custom modifier button (Not Ctrl but a separate button that you assign for this use case) and A is, well, whatever other button on the keyboard you want to use for this, not necessarily "C".

Or you can have a single button programmed to send Alt+Tab, or... whatever, really, the firmware is very flexible.

<comment><USER44> _pressing X+A sends Ctrl+C_

Yeah, I know about remapping and that's not going to happen. What a nightmare! But the more I think about my idea the worse it sounds. What are the 12 most common shortcut keys? It's hard to narrow them down to that, and I'm not sure everybody would agree. Still, ergonomically it would be an interesting challenge.

<comment><USER43> > What are the 12 most common shortcut keys?

FWIW the WhatPulse app can tell you that (for your own typing) e.g. [https://i.imgur.com/SuPLw9h.png](https://i.imgur.com/SuPLw9h.png)

I used its data to drive my custom layout decisions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> OT, but does using DVORAK prevent someone from using vim? I mean, do you have to remap hjkl or what? Use arrow key?

<comment><USER46> I use Vim with Dvorak. No remapping required. The keys are just in different places than on Qwerty.

<comment><USER45> Right, but having hjkl sit consecutively is sort of like wasd moves where you don't have to think about the key you pressed, only about the shape. But I guess it's just how you choose to build your muscle memory model.

<comment><USER46> I learned Vim after switching to Dvorak, so the Dvorak positions of hjkl are what I'm used to. I don't have to think about the key I pressed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> This question is drawing some excellent responses, thanks for asking it.

</comment><comment><USER48> My main issue with alternate layouts is that none of the hotkeys make any sense anymore. Copy ends up being on the other side of the keyboard from paste..etc etc This adds significantly to the time needed to learn a new layout.

<comment><USER49> Colemak is designed specifically not to do this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> 1\. It took me 4 months, give or take 2\. No

</comment><comment><USER51> went from AZERTY to QWERTY, and took me about 2 weeks to get entirely used to it

</comment><comment><USER52> around 2005-6 i considered switching over to dvorak, but trying it out, doing tutorials, etc, never had much of an effect. i would say i was a pretty fast qwerty typer, but i hadn't learned to properly touch type. instead, i was fast enough to not need to see the keys once i had started typing but it relied on a bunch of terrible hand positions.

around 2007, i broke my right thumb by hitting a pothole and that put my typing (and all my bad habits) in a weird spot. At that point i decided to try one-handed dvorak and failed, but i found that two handed dvorak was very doable, so i spent about two weeks of my convalescence doing [http://web.archive.org/web/20040803054502/http://www.gigliwo...](http://web.archive.org/web/20040803054502/http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/abcd.html) on and off and watching movies. About a week in, i swapped all my keycaps to make the transition easier, but found that i missed having the home row nubs on f/j (u/h in dvorak) because at this point i had started actually relying on them for positioning as i had finally learned to touch type.

at this point, about two weeks in, i was solidly able to to use my modded keyboard, but i still peeked at the keys occasionally so that i would re- position my hands correctly at rest. it took me about a full month of occasional typing in dvorak while i was in physical therapy to "make the switch" mentally.

this probably marks my eleventh year typing in dvorak, by far the first few months were the most awkward, especially since at the time i was using vi and some of its key commands are optimized for qwerty while others have semantic meanings. the most annoying thing in those early months is not so much the letter positions, but recalling where all the special characters live: .,'-;/=[] are all characters that you possibly associate with certain regions of the keyboard, but in dvorak they are a punctuation-diaspora, scattered across the edges of the keyboard. by around six months in, i think i was back to my regular typing speed, but i believe i exceeded my qwerty speed easily a year into dvorak simply because i had finally learned to properly touch type and had developed muscle memory for all keys.

how hard is switching back? like you, i wondered about being keymap-bilingual, but it turns out to not be all that important day-to-day. i definitely type noticeably slower when i go back to qwerty keyboard (usually because i'm using a friend's computer). in practice this happens remarkably infrequently. one of the strange things of learning dvorak but leaving your keycaps in qwerty is that i look at a `t` but i "see" a `p`. it's strange, it's the closest thing i have experienced to having a sixth sense. because ios doesn't allow you to remap its keyboard to dvorak, i use qwerty there all the time and it's not at all disorienting.

One place, however, where you do need to remain somewhat sharp is pc gaming, where games inconsistently pick up custom keymaps (i.e. in js this is the distinction b/w evt.key and evt.code). in most cases, you just end up using qwerty because it's a pain to remap (this was especially true for games like dota2, but starcraft 2's grid layout remedies much of that). again, many apps like illustrator/photoshop also have keyboard shortcuts located for physical reasons and less for logical "this letter is short for that idea" reasons, which can make the switch harder

that said, it's doable and i believe in you! at the very least, you'll become a better typer and develop better habits from your time in dvorak. good luck!</comment>