Leap: An Online Community for Women - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ycombinator.com/join-leap-an-online-community-for-women/ <comment><USER3> I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advances. So many of these experiences I just buried inside until I was in the company of other people I trusted and felt safe to share. There hasn't really been an online forum where I felt safe to have these conversations until now. Now that Leap is here I have other people who _get_ me who I can talk to about the stuff that is bugging me. With their help I can treat each day as new and keep moving forward with my career. If you don't understand why this community is important perhaps it's because you have had the privilege of never feeling like a second class citizen in the industry you work in.

<comment><USER4> I really wish your experience was unique.

A colleague was groped. She didn't report it. It would have likely diminished her future prospects. A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. She just had to laugh it off. Women at a previous employment reported not being taken as seriously as men in meetings, and being passed over for promotions in favour of less qualified men. A friend reported sexualized posters of women up in the office. In the chat of my company, a sexualized video of women was passed around.

I'm trans, so my challenges are a bit different. I try to hide the fact that I'm trans during interviews. A lot of people are uncomfortable with trans people (26% of Canadian men are uncomfortable moving next to one), and with interviews to see if I'm socially a good fit, that can end it. I actually changed my name to an androgynous one as to not out myself. I get misgendered at work by people who do it on purpose. I also get touched inappropriately by a coworker.

In all cases, what can you do to challenge these things without being seen as "the crazy one", "too sensitive", "party pooper", or whatever? Without hurting my finances? It's shit.

<comment><USER5> _A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers._

I'm a geek and don't know the first thing about dating, but doesn't at least one of the parties involved need to receive an unsolicited request? Isn't that how it works?

<comment><USER6> If it is a setting where asking is potentially problematic -- like work -- it is best to either broach the subject more delicately or don't ask unless you are confident you know the answer is _yes._

Just asking cold calling style is not the only option for approaching such things.

<comment><USER7> _If it is a setting where asking is potentially problematic -- like work_

This is cultural, no? I mean, I have a _personal_ rule of never dating coworkers, but I have friends elsewhere in the world where this isn't such a strange notion.

<comment><USER6> I worked at a company where co-workers dated and even married. It wasn't against the rules as long as one did not have power over the other at work.

Nonetheless, I was asked for a date by a senior programmer in the department I had been hoping to transfer to. This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter.

Some people know how to navigate such situations effectively. Some don't. Culture may help skew those percentages one direction or the other, but I think certain settings introduce inherent problems that need to be accounted for and navigated around. Working together is one such situation.

<comment><USER7> _This helped kill my hopes of having a real career at the company and helped me make my peace with just leaving the company shortly thereafter._

Merely curious, was the working relationship between the two of you already strained/tense? Said another way, were you already planning to depart from the company before the senior programmer asked you out?

<comment><USER6> I did not have a working relationship with him. We worked at the same company, but we never worked together. I was already expecting to leave for unrelated reasons.

I have a certificate in GIS. In the 5+ years at that company, he was the only person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. It never crossed his mind that I might have IT ambitions or that my technical training might have value for the company. He just saw an attractive woman, and that was it. This helped convince me that the company was simply not fertile ground for a serious career for me.

My department was a pink collar ghetto. I had no desire to remain in an underpaid pink collar job and use the company as a means to marry well. He no doubt made at least 3 to 5 times what I made.

<comment><USER8> > He just saw an attractive woman

Attractive sexually or intellectually?

<comment><USER9> Not cool. Please don't do this here.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting.

      If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap,
      please sign up for our beta here.

I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women may not really know what "identifying" is all about and just think "well, I'm a woman, what's to identify with?". There are also younger women who reject the idea that gender is an identity that you can choose at will.

Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women".

I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big- hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway.

To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.

<comment><USER11> >have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers

This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should.

I've heard things similar to what you're saying in the past, but I don't think it holds water. Trans women typically aren't welcome in male-only spaces, because we aren't. Often we aren't welcome in women-only spaces because of opinions like these. Usually there aren't trans-only spaces. It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ because of some dubious concept of "socialisation", as if every trans woman has the same experiences such that you can discriminate based on it.

>Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.

Often! I've also had civilised and polite debates with men, and been shouted down by cis women. People are people, not just their gender, and while there are trends that's all they are.

<comment><USER10> >> This is certainly not the case for all trans women. You may not feel like you need to join a community like this, but I don't think it's fair to then speak for/to the trans community saying that none of us should.

I accept that there are differences between trans women, but I believe my description covers a strong majority. I don't speak "for" anyone, of course.

>> It ends up with us being excluded _everywhere_ because of some dubious concept of "socialisation", as if every trans woman has the same experiences such that you can discriminate based on it.

I agree that the concept of "socialisation" is vague and hard to define. The problem is that there are differences in the way men and women behave in a social context and because these differences end up harming women (usually) they need to be addressed. It's easy to see that boys and girls are brought up differently (different toys, different advise, being told off for different things etc) so that's a likely explanation. The alternative is usually a biological explanation about male and female brains generating male and female behaviours. We don't really understand how brains generate any behaviours so I find the biological explanation to be very suspicious. The "socialisation" explanation sounds a lot more straightforward.

Of course there are differences between trans women, in behaviour as well as upbringing. There are differences between men, and between women. Yet, here we are with a tech indudstry that is, in aggregate, unfair or hostile to women, but not to men. You can't predict the behaviour of individuals, but you can make fairly accurate predictions for the kind of behaviours that arise in groups. That's why a community like Leap is needed in the first place.

My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the community seems to want to keep out.

I agree that feeling excluded from everywhere is harsh and feels extremely unfair. But we can't fix unfair by making more unfair. We can't make the world fair for ourselves by making it more unfair for others. At the end of the day, the way forward is true equality. If trans women are accepted as women, and women are accepted as equal to men (in technology, or anywhere), trans women will not need to feel excluded from anywhere.

But this is not yet the case and I really think that trans women need to give some space to cis women until it is and in order to help make it so.

>> Often!

And thanks for letting me have one, too. My experience is that it happens, but rarely.

<comment><USER12> > My concern is that in the case of women-only spaces where trans women are > welcome, many trans women will join, responding to their need to belong, > which you express and which I feel myself. And that given enough trans women > joining, a few of them will eventually display those behavioural traits you > can expect from people who grew up like men and that are the traits the > community seems to want to keep out.

I am cis-gendered female and exhibit a lot of conversational traits typically identified as male-patterned. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed?

Personally I love the idea of allowing trans-women into a woman focused community. Your perspective is going to be unique (and likely uniquely insightful.) You also experience the same discrimination as cis-gendered women if you aren't explicitly identifying as transgendered and may have the same needs for support and understanding related to that discrimination.

<comment><USER10> >> I am cis-gendered female and exhibit a lot of conversational traits typically identified as male-patterned. Does that mean I shouldn't be allowed?

I concede I haven't considered women with atypical behaviours so I'll be honest and say I don't know how to answer your question. My guess is that cis women being a bit confrontational (if I intepret that right) is going to be much less disruptive, or divisive, than trans women doing the same.

>> Personally I love the idea of allowing trans-women into a woman focused community. Your perspective is going to be unique (and likely uniquely insightful.) You also experience the same discrimination as cis-gendered women if you aren't explicitly identifying as transgendered and may have the same needs for support and understanding related to that discrimination.

Thank you for your empowering words, I appreciate them. I hope you're right and that the trans women who join Leap will contribute positively to it.

Personally, I'm not out to my coworkers so yes, I'd benefit from a community like Leap, absolutely. But that can't be just about me (or others like me). If you look at complaints cis women have against trans women, it's all about us thinking only of ourselves and our need to be perceived as women, taking the place of cis women in employment, enjoying resources and structures meant to help cis women etc. The majority of the people who say those things typically turn out to be vicious trolls who don't really care so much about cis women as about hurting trans women. But I have to consider the possibility that in their hatred they have managed to latch on to a nugget of truth: that just by being perceived as any other woman, I end up taking the place of one. And that just shocks me to my core. I transitioned to find myself, not to usurp someone else's place in the world.

So I've decided to be very careful to avoid doing that, if at all possible. And one part of that is staying well away from spaces meant "for women", even if they're explicitly trans-friendly.

And I do think that other trans women should also be just as careful. Expressing your identity can't be done at the cost of others' lives. Well, unless you're Vlad the Impaler.

<comment><USER10> I can't edit my post. I wanted to add that it's not just the internet postings of vicious, transphobic trolls that have made me think. It's things like the controversy around Fallon Fox; or, the story of a trans woman who received an award for women entrepreneurs thanks to the success of a company she set up while living as a man. Stories that show that sometimes, trans women can really run roughshod over the interests of cis women, in our road to self- actualisation.

<comment><USER6> _Stories that show that sometimes, trans women can really run roughshod over the interests of cis women, in our road to self-actualisation._

This is an issue I have been uncomfortably aware for a while. I have never before seen anyone comment on it.

Let me suggest that your awareness of it makes you someone I would prefer to have around in a women's group.

I say this as someone who has been burned on this very issue, repeatedly so. But I would prefer to seek a path forward for both cishet women and trans women, one that victimizes neither. That path won't be found without people like you.

If Leap is something you feel would benefit you, I hope you will reconsider your position and join it. If it doesn't work out to your satisfaction for any reason, you can always stop participating.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've been a member of Leap for many months now, and I have been amazed by the incredible displays of women helping women in this online community. I've become personal friends with a handful of women that I've met through Leap, and wish that Leap existed years ago when I first entered (and felt lost navigating) the tech scene. Thanks for creating this, @cbcowans. It is already a huge success.

</comment><comment><USER6> I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit.

If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at some point after starting out as exclusively female.

I have been a member of predominantly female groups. If there is a single man in them, they fail to be some kind of female empowerment zone. He will have the largest influence any time he posts and he will be backed by vicious female allies who will have a huge problem with any woman standing up to him. It is bizarre stuff.

The one group I briefly belonged to that was initially exclusively female due to happenstance promptly crashed and burned when the first man joined. After ugly stuff went down, the list basically died. It was eventually disbanded, even though he quickly left because of the drama. The group never recovered from the debacle.

<comment><USER14> Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding.

This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful.

Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.

<comment><USER6> _Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding._

Women have a tendency to be too empathetic and understanding and society tends to hang a lot of expectations on them to be so. If women want careers, being a little less caring and a little more goal oriented seems like a constructive outcome to me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I ask because I think this is a cool project, but there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.

<comment><USER16> Sounds like you have a community that you want to exist, and that you have a vision for.

Is there anything preventing you from going out and making it?

<comment><USER15> > Sounds like you have a community that you want to exist, and that you have a > vision for

I do, that's why I asked the question.

<comment><USER16> Great! Are you working on making it exist?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Hi! I'm the creator of Leap. Glad to answer questions here.

<comment><USER18> I'll go straight to the difficult questions:

1\. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal?

2\. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?

<comment><USER19> >Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?

This assumption completely disregards the measurable advantage men have in the tech community. If you have identical programs, one for a historically disenfranchised group, and one for the group that's been in power for decades, only one of those programs is shitty.

edit: "Advantage" was a poor choice of words, but since it's been quoted in replies I'll leave it. I meant something more like "given the gender disparities in the tech community."

<comment><USER20> > The measurable advantage men have in the tech community

What is that advantage and how is it measured ?

<comment><USER21> Measurement is easy. Just look around you. The majority of people working in tech are men. An even larger majority of its leadership is men.

Why is this?

There are only two possible causes that I can see - genetic, or cultural. The genetic argument is basically that men are, by nature, better at being programmers and leaders than women - that women are inferior. The cultural argument is that there is a social advantage to being male (and a social disadvantage to being female) - that, all else being equal, things tend to default in favor of men.

Personally, I reject the genetic explanation. Most people do. If you also reject it, then you're stuck with the cultural explanation, or finding something I haven't come up with.

<comment><USER20> Could it be that the cultural problem is the low social status of IT Work ?

<comment><USER22> Lawyers have about the same gender breakdown as computer systems analysts, so I don't think this is the case. CEOs are even more predominantly male, at a fairly shocking 73% by 2016 numbers (we'll have '17 soon).

The problem with tech in particular is that we're often viewed as an inclusive and progressive industry. But when you run the numbers, we're no better than the law firms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> As a man, I cannot access your site, but I am still curious which community model you're using - reddit, old school forum, feed (FB, insta)...?

Do you have anything you're doing that you find particularly interesting, beyond the self-selection?

<comment><USER17> I put together a gif with some example content from Leap when I posted Leap on Product Hunt. You can check it out here if you like: [https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by- yc](https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by-yc). I'd describe it as a hybrid. I'd love to hear which bucket you'd put it in.

<comment><USER23> Not OP but to me it looks like a Reddit clone with a few more "fun features" with the emojis. It could very well be based off of reddit considering it's open source.

<comment><USER24> I find it interesting that the reply button in the stream/index is so prominent. I'd view that as too dominant a design decision, but then perhaps fostering discussion/involvement at the cost of style or following an off-site link is worth the trade off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> We all need a safe space to come in from the cold. When you feel vulnerable, you want to communicate with friendly, like-minded people. However, you'll find more noise within an echo chamber and that jerks exist regardless of gender.

This sort of gender-specific walled garden is nothing new and I suppose will always attract a certain stereotype. Here's an old Anthony Lewis post from 1994 that may sober folks on the idea: [http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home- tim...](http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-time-to-grow- up.html)

"I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" \--Groucho Marx

<comment><USER26> >Michael Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a public-interest law firm, made the same point -- if slightly less elegantly -- about the Santa Rosa case. People who objected to the computer message, he said, "should have called the guy who posted the message a jerk."

Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the legal road to suppression of speech. It would have worked well, for example, in the notorious case of Prof. J. Donald Silva of the University of New Hampshire.

I find this section to be a disturbing summation of the author's attitude on the subject. And, the Groucho Marx quote has no bearing on any of this; it's self-deprecation.

<comment><USER25> Do I find a mens club repugnant? Yes, but I do appreciate comfortable chairs. As for Groucho, I suppose the subtlety of his humor falls on deaf ears.

<comment><USER26> So, how does it relate then? What did you add by including it? It's a famous quote, and I remember mentioning it to a college professor when we covered Poe's 'The Black Cat.' I'm all for learning. Please explain.

<comment><USER25> It's about exclusion. The Marx family were Jews. Men-only clubs (just "clubs" back then) excluded Jews. Groucho's feigning snobbery was self-deprecating, but also allegorical.

Walled gardens are for suckers.

<comment><USER26> Thanks very much for the explanation, and I'm sorry for my initial tone/wrongness.

<comment><USER25> No worries. We're always learning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I have a naive question that needs answering.

Is there a difference between a community for Women vs a community for anybody who wants a civil community?

From the discussion, I gather that women like 'women only' communities primarily because there are no "ill behaved", threatening men that turn away women.

Is there a place for a community for civilized human beings where everyone is included regardless of their gender identity?

I think gender specific communities creates a mono culture and punishes men who are civilized and know how to behave around other gender(s).

The real issue to address is to keep out the unruly crowd - regardless of gender.

</comment><comment><USER28> This is smart, natural, and a good use of tech. I hope your community succeeds.

<comment><USER29> I agree. Male only entities are also smart and natural, and if tech based are a good use of that tech, right?

<comment><USER30> Sure, if someone identifies a need for one? Even better, if you see an opportunity going missing in the market due to the lack of said entity, why not start one up?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I don't use Facebook, but I entered my LinkedIn and Github URLs globbed together. Really hoping for some leeway on this verification method. I would be happy to wait until other methods are created but can't say I was not disappointed.

</comment><comment><USER32> I want to join but I don't have a Facebook! What's next? (Besides getting a FacebooK)

</comment><comment><USER33> seems wonderful! just requested a membership :)

I've been part of some online tech communities for women, but I found they were too US-centric and it was difficult for me to obtain value from it, hoping Leap will be different

<comment><USER17> Great! Look forward to having you join!

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Direct sign-up link:

[https://leap.ycombinator.com](https://leap.ycombinator.com)

</comment><comment><USER35> What if i identify as female?

<comment><USER36> That's a really good question actually and shows the problem with sites like this (especially when connected with Facebook)

<comment><USER17> I'm not using Facebook's definition of sex to include or exclude anyone. The link to Facebook is so I can check that each new member is real. Anyone who identifies as a woman is invited to join.

<comment><USER37> Do you use the Facebook link to verify that the person is female? I'm trans and out as a woman in a lot of places, including at the tech company where I work, but not on Facebook.

<comment><USER17> I do all verification manually. Please send me a note at cadran at ycombinator.com and we can discuss further.

<comment><USER37> Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> > they've found jobs, met mentors and made friends through the community.

I am interested in finding a mentor and a supportive community. Is there a forum like this for general public.

<comment><USER39> There's tons of them.

Facebook groups, linked-in groups and subreddits for any discipline already exist and are waiting for you to join them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Please allow signup verification by LinkedIn, many people do not have Facebook accounts. (I am one such person.)

</comment><comment><USER41> I am a bit triggered.

This segregation stuff does not make sense to me, it almost feels like prison rules - keep genders/races away from each other because if they interact it will probably be violent.

 _I wondered what would happen if I created a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women_

-> This also seems strange to me and counterproductive. If we build a society where any interaction happens without confrontations against the people that may be causing the issues, in this case "men", then how are we to make progress? Do men and women think differently about the merits of different software technologies or not?

 _Even when members have opposing views, they've given each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to talk productively._

-> Are you implying that men are incapable of this? Or that an environment where men and women interact is incapable of achieving this? Seems regressive...

<comment><USER42> Are you trying to get at the fact that while this is supposed to be empowering to women, it necessarily implies that there are material differences between men and women in how they interact socially? Following this line do we conclude that it is morally inconsistent (with modern "totally equal" egalitarianism) or that it espouses a less popular "equal worth, but not equal treatment" ethic? Or maybe this is just a way to bootstrap communities with less maleness baked-in but that can eventually accept men once their cultural norms are established?

<comment><USER41> I think you are moving in the right direction - there is a strange and confusing double standard with gender diversity. Note that I am talking about averages here not individual women.

Women and men are different -> This justifies different outcomes in certain areas such as tech but promotes diversity due to the fact that they think different and could provide a much needed alternative viewpoint in a homogeneous environment. (this is mostly my perspective)

Women and men are the same -> Then there is a problem with the outcomes being different but the diversity argument goes away because men and women view and interact the same. If this is true we have to forcefully equalize all professions to 50-50. This also doesn't make sense in the context of leap - <USER2> men and women are the same why do we need environments that are for one gender or the other?

As far as bootstrapping less masculine communities I'm all for that but the execution of it might turn a bit bizarre when you start letting men in.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Can someone help me understand how this site is not sexist and discriminatory against men?

<comment><USER44> Do you also consider separate men and women's bathrooms prejudicial and sexist?

<comment><USER45> As defined by merriam-webster.com I certainly do. Why do we consider all sexism bad?

<comment><USER19> That's not the real question, you're pretending context doesn't matter. What's your argument? Women say "I enjoy having a place to communicate with other women in a place that feels safe from male interference," and your response is "Let me into the women's bathroom"?

<comment><USER45> No. Having separate bathrooms for men and women is sexist, by definition. What I hoped for was discussion on whether all sexism is bad.

<comment><USER44> No, having separate bathrooms is not sexist. Because the term sexism refers to negative issues only. Webster's uses the word "discrimination". Which I assume you are being pedantic and interpreting in a broader context like "discriminating between the colors blue and teal".

But lookup discriminate and it has a few meanings. One of which refers to prejudicial or unfair treatment. That is the definition implied when referring sexist discrimination.

<comment><USER45> I don't agree. If sexism refers to the negative issues only then what is the word for the positive issues of dividing people up by sex?

<comment><USER44> Gender distinction, gender separation

Every major dictionary specifically uses terms like "prejudice", "discrimination against", "stereotype". There is obviously a consensus that it is referring to negative/unequal treatment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: "I've found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly" do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn't exist or anything, I'm just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven't personally recognised.

<comment><USER47> I'm not a woman so I'm not going to try and address what women do or don't feel about HN but I just want to say:

>"I've found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly"

How many people can find a group of people IN GENERAL (online/offline/anywhere) that doesn't rapidly devolve into power/politics/passive & active aggressive behavior? Go spend some time on a forum like metafilter where you have to pay $5 to comment and the moderators aggressively prune any opinion that doesn't tow a nominal progressive line. Even with all of that you end up with some of the most breathtakingly toxic behavior I've seen on any forum.

In my opinion Leap is a wonderful innovation. It will help lots of people realize being an asshole does not know gender.

<comment><USER34> Well, since many joined for networking purposes, and the identity stays fixed (no throwaways) and transparent (with rich personal profiles), I guess we are being mindful about our impression.

As there are things you won't probably speak out at work, so there're things and emotional responses you keep to yourself in a professional community. Is it good? Is it bad? Haven't figured it out yet.

I got really sick from reading the neverending, overblown feminist headlines in YC Female Founders group on FB. Leap has been growing into something else, luckily, which I suppose is provided by the fact that it was built and nurtured by female engineers (thus partially sharing a certain mindset and culture).

Also, with a decent amount of supportive culture present, I still woudn't call Leap an emotional support group. The responses so far have been consistently useful and constructive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Is there an alternative Identity verification besides FacebooK?

<comment><USER17> Not at the moment unfortunately. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I add other auth mechanisms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> [flagged]</comment>


What it's like hitting the front page - twice - <AUTHOR> http://www.jonhmchan.com/thoughts/2013/9/21/lessons-learned-hitting-the-front-page-twice

<comment><USER3> ~18 months ago, Gizmodo linked to[0] a page on my web site. It was then posted to Reddit, was shared several thousand times on Facebook, and also linked to by The Atlantic. (I'm not sure if it was ever linked to on HN or not or how to even check.)

I was at a customer's site that morning (one where cell phones are absolutely not permitted and I couldn't exactly pull up my personal e-mail) and my first hint that something was up was when I looked at my phone upon leaving for the day and seeing the absurd number of "new follower" e-mail messages from Twitter.

I knew something was up but didn't know what until I got home that evening and could get online. By then, the page had in the neighborhood of 145k page views and the worst was over. I thought it was cool as hell but the girlfriend, meh, not so much. I had already arrived home later than expected, making us late for dinner w/ friends, and she certainly did not share in my enthusiasm, to say the least.

When it was finally over, that page had received just north of 180k page views and made me a few hundred bucks thanks to the AdSense banner across the top of the page. It was certainly a neat experience.

[0]: [http://gizmodo.com/5881627/have-you-ever-unlocked-any-of- the...](http://gizmodo.com/5881627/have-you-ever-unlocked-any-of-these- computing-achievements)

</comment><comment><USER4> Sick post, brah-ski.

In all seriousness, great work here. I especially like the point you make about not fighting back. Too often the HN hivemind will try to take someone down just for submitting something opinionated ("Why would I learn PostgreSQL so late into my web development stream?!??!"). Let people say what they have to say and stay your ground.

Keep it up!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. It was such a crazy day yesterday and at one point I did make some mistakes. I think it's really important to remember that people probably aren't trying to ruin your life if they give you criticism - <USER2> roll with it!</comment></comment>


Quotes - <AUTHOR> http://paulgraham.com/quo.html <comment><USER6> I'll have to add some of these to my list of quotes that emacs greets me with. Current list:

      (defvar scratch-quotes
      (list
       "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. - Mike Tyson"
       "Look, I made a hat...where there never was a hat. - Finishing the hat, Sondheim"
       "Just fucking figure it out."
       "The universe is not here to please you. - Charles Murtaugh"
       "Your life is your life. The gods await to delight in you. - Bukowski"
       "Join the force and get a pension. - Salesman"
       "Beware of things that are fun to argue. - Eliezer Yudkowsky"
       "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the result. - Winston Churchill"
       "Truth is much too complicated to allow anything but approximations. - John Von Neumann"
       "Writing program code is a good way of debugging your thinking. - Bill Venables"
       "Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget, and I'll tell you what you value. - Joe Biden quoting his father"
       "Most haystacks do not even have a needle. - Lorenzo"
       "Experiment and theory often show remarkable agreement when performed in the same laboratory. - Daniel Bershader"
       "The important work of moving the world forward does not wait to be done by perfect men. - George Eliot"
       "It is astonishing what foolish things a man thinking alone can come temporarily to believe. - Keynes"
       "The purpose of computing is Insight, not numbers. - Richard Hamming"
       "Work on stuff that matters. - Tim O'Reilly"
       "Sometimes magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect. - Teller"
       "You have to say something. It can't all be technique. - Woody Allen (on great actors)"
       ;; Paraphrased from a HN comment
       "Perfectionism is a failure to optimize across a complex goal space, settling, instead, on ignoring the difficult prioritisation problem in favor of over-optimizing a limited set of tangible and easily-defined goals over longer-run priorities"
       ))

<comment><USER7> _Don 't tell me what you value. Show me your budget, and I'll tell you what you value._

That's really good. Particularly as it relates to non-financial budgets, such as a time budget. In fact it immediately got me out of my chair and up for some physical activity!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I keep a list of quotes that I read from time to time

* When the winds of change blow, some people build walls while others build windmills. — Chinese proverb

* There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway

* If you love life, then don't waste time, for time is what life is made of. - Bruce Lee

* If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it - Cicero.

* Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking. - <USER3>

* Education is not the filling of a pail but the lighting of a fire. - <USER3>

<comment><USER8> Ben Franklin said it a while before Bruce Lee did...

<comment><USER9> * If you love life, then don't waste time, for time is what life is made of. - <USER4>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."

This. x1000. I've found that a lot of disagreement about ways to implement a feature can be solved by keeping this in mind.

<comment><USER11> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."

Not _this_. x1.

Now if _this_ were true, you would read these programs as you would literature. But you don't. Instead, you only use these programs as you would a tool and then complain when they don't do what you want them to do fast enough or reliably enough.

In literature, you have expectations but not certainty about the ending. Only with a bad tool do you expect anything but certainty about the ending. Indeed the hallmark of a good program is that you don't have to read it to know how it ends.

Another anti-parallel is that literature ( _literate programming_ ) admires originality whereas good engineering admires plagiarism.

<comment><USER12> I am possibly not the only one who prints out code and reads them?

<comment><USER13> Did it for code reviews when I was code reviewing C[1]. It really does help. Paper still has a place. Its amazing what you see on a page of paper that doesn't get seen on the screen.

1) which, since I was doing the code reviews, I wasn't allowed to write any production code, because who would review my code? :(

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Any thoughts on the quote investigator?

That Wasn't Mark Twain: How a Misquotation Is Born [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/books/famous- misquotation...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/books/famous- misquotations.html?_r=0)

</comment><comment><USER15> Eagle eyed readers and veteran HN'ers will note that "Tara Ploughman" is an anagram for "Not Paul Graham."

<comment><USER16> A classic HN thread on the topic: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=554889](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=554889)

<comment><USER17> Oh damn, I've been on HN a long time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > "I'm surrounded by postmodern idiots and blatherers. Your writings give me > hope."

> \- email from a reader

That is... quite a quote.

<comment><USER19> Most amusing to me is that Maciej Ceglowski of idlewords.com would probably say the exact opposite.

Some (start of) context: [http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm](http://www.idlewords.com/2005/04/dabblers_and_blowhards.htm)

Reading Maciej' comments about PG, HN, and Silicon Valley in general is a wonderful cure to the kind of madness that can pervade the place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I find most quotes to be interesting sounding, but on deeper thinking incredibly vague or pointless.

<comment><USER21> ^This is my new favorite quote.

<comment><USER22> ^This is my new favorite quote.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> > _" Many big people were chasing me. I didn't know what to do. So I thought I > would surprise them and throw it."_ \- Garo Yepremian, Miami placekicker, > after a disastrous attempt to throw a pass in the Super Bowl.

I don't understand this. What's the wisdom to be gleaned from this one?

<comment><USER23> There's something poetic about watching the play unfold. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-pxMm_UdY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-pxMm_UdY4)

You can learn a few things from this play that I think would help you in life. First is planning for the unexpected and knowing how to respond in a situation where you're about to panic. Given the context of the situation you win almost 100% of the time if you just fall down and do nothing after securing the ball. Great players recognize how to maximize their odds of winning, this rings true in many facets of life.

Second the whole sequence of events is simply incredibly funny, and this quote gives an answer to what everyone would ask after witnessing the play. "What was that guy thinking?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> > "It is said that there is a technical term for people who believe that > little boys and little girls are born indistinguishable and are molded into > their natures by parental socialization. The term is 'childless.'"

I have sometimes thought that one reason gay people might exist is that they're God's way of skewering the conservative idea that gender roles are absolutes fixed by nature. It occurred to me the other day that in the same vein, transgender people might be Her way of skewering the liberal idea that gender roles are total societal constructions.

</comment><comment><USER25> I want to share some of quotes I see everyday:

1) The higher the mountain, the more treacherous the path - Frank Underwood

2) What you think, you become - <USER5>

3) If you want something you have never had, you must be willing to do something you have never done

</comment><comment><USER26> "Curiosity is insubordination in its purest form." \-- Vladimir Nabokov

I feel like I was born as a rebel.

</comment><comment><USER27> Given we're sharing quote lists, allow me to spruik[1] my own contribution — Q4TD: Get one, per day. Available at the following places:

Twitter: [http://www.twitter.com/q4td](http://www.twitter.com/q4td)

Facebook: [http://www.facebook.com/quote4theday](http://www.facebook.com/quote4theday)

Google Plus: [https://plus.google.com/u/0/110672212432591877153/posts](https://plus.google.com/u/0/110672212432591877153/posts)

RSS: [https://q4td.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default](https://q4td.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default)

Blog: [https://q4td.blogspot.com/](https://q4td.blogspot.com/)

"I quote others only in order the better to express myself." — Michel de Montaigne

[1] [https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spruik](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/spruik)

</comment><comment><USER28> "However little television you watch, watch less."

-David McCullough

Unless it's the HBO miniseries "John Adams", based on his book!

<comment><USER29> Or Westworld which is mindblowingly good!

<comment> awinter-py Or the upcoming adams-westworld crossover where George III reveals that america is a theme park, the revolution has been fought many times and memory- wiped, and he only fought the war to get the americans past their julian jaynes preconsciousness.

(Of course this is revealed through G-III interviewing a nude john adams on a stool).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I've completed 9 days of 31 consecutive days of half marathons, everyday I take a picture of something inspirational/interesting on my run (easy on miami's south beach) but I also add a quote of the day, I'll probably use Mark Twain's quote today.

<comment><USER31> I ran xc/track in college, and I must say, that is likely a bad idea. You are going to hurt yourself, unless you've slowly built up to this. You should never increase your weekly mileage by more than 10% over the previous week. But don't take my word for it, I'm sure your body will let you know in the next week.

<comment><USER30> it's funny for the last week I have been running my last 8 with Robert "the raven" Kraft who is like the 6th or 7th leading streak runner - 8 miles a day for 42+ years, thru Miami hurricanes; heat/humidity; even hail. Nearly 120,000miles (just shy of 5x around the earth) and at 67 years old people are still waiting for him to stop just to say I told you so.

<comment><USER31> Yeah, I'm not saying it's dangerous to run 90 miles a week. It's dangerous to _suddenly start_ running 90 miles a week.

Just looked that guy up though, I bet he's got some cool stories!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> > "That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for > the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted."

This one has serious implication, not only in the computer programming world, of course.

</comment><comment><USER33> A few good ones:

[https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020)

[http://rubyonrails.org/doctrine/](http://rubyonrails.org/doctrine/)

[https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aaron_Swartz)

</comment><comment><USER34> I spent a few months recently creating a quotes manager for iOS. Save and look up quotes by author, rating, source and tag.

[0] Video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egqwsznp_EY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egqwsznp_EY) [1] Website: [https://www.humanquote.com/](https://www.humanquote.com/)

</comment><comment><USER35> Here is one that deserves to be more popular.

"Solving operating systems problems with hardware interrupts is a lot like solving your own personal problems with heroin - at first it sorta works, but after a while things just get out of hand." \- Fred B. Schneider, PhD

</comment><comment><USER36> Here's my quote collection: [https://www.evernote.com/pub/kristofferr/inspiringQuotes](https://www.evernote.com/pub/kristofferr/inspiringQuotes)

</comment><comment><USER37> he quotes one of my favorite poems, which is a good one to be reminded of (the whole poem, not just the quote) in these trying political times:

The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.

\- Yeats, The Second Coming

<comment><USER38> The best lack all conviction... kinda like YC Unicorns?

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I started keeping all quotes/highlights from books I read [https://podviaznikov.com/quotes](https://podviaznikov.com/quotes)

</comment><comment><USER40> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute."

\- Abelson & Sussman, SICP, preface to the first edition

I may need a tattoo of this. (joking but only slightly)

</comment><comment><USER41> Since everyone's posting theirs, here is mine: [http://qte.tumblr.com/](http://qte.tumblr.com/)

</comment><comment><USER38> "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."

\-- George Bernard Shaw

It's a bit eye-rolling whenever a PG essay makes the top page here, but a page of PG's favorite quotes on HN in days when the US slips into a novel blend of kleptocracy and autocracy, the NYT notes the top five tech firms are basically monopolies, and the most successful of the last decade's startups prove fiscally inept at best, ethically-challenged at worst... well, poop.

<comment><USER42> Well this wasn't submitted by pg nor (presumably) did he ask anyone to submit or upvote this. What exactly are you complaining about?

<comment><USER38> I understand PG didn't submit it himself, but that it was submitted and upvoted, well, who cares? I'm surprised enough people care to make it hit the front page.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Completely broken on mobile. Looks fine if you request desktop mode.

<comment><USER44> You broke the first rule of HN: don't criticize pg.

<comment><USER43> A critique of a program isn't a critique of the programmer.

<comment><USER45> It's just not a critique of the programmer as a person -- but it very much is a critique of a programmer as a programmer.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Am I obligated to transfer my domain? - <AUTHOR> Back when I was learning to program, I made a clone of popular SaSS website I wished to work at. I picked a name that was "startup-y" and I've now received a Cease and Desist letter from a startup that had that name.
I don't mind taking the site down as I don't really need it anymore, but the letter says I must transfer the domain to them as well.
Is this something I have to do? It seems weird that the domain must be transferred if nothing is on it. <comment><USER2> So the startup that sent the Cease and Desist has nothing to do with the popular SaaS website you cloned?

Startups don't just get to bully owners out of domain names that use the same name. If the domain was important to them they could have bought it before you did.

This isn't legal advice, but I would take the site down (since it sounds like you don't care about it), refuse to transfer the domain, tell them you intend to keep using the domain but would consider having a conversation about selling it to them.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you keep a physical community alive? - <AUTHOR> I'm a test lead in a medium large financial organization. As part of adopting SAFE (yes, i know...) and the Spotify model I am reviving a professional community under the COP or Guild hats respectively.
We have the basics- an ongoing leaders community, organizational support is expected, shared interest and problems to solve but somehow when I examine our history (and to be honest of other places as well) it seems that communities tend to be short lived.
I would appreciate any inputs or experience about keeping communities alive and bubbly over long periods.
This discussion [1] about online communities has some good tips, i wonder if virtual communities are that different than the ones in the real world
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21812442 <comment><USER2> At a previous employer, my dev team was pretty anti-social and we were in the basement of the building with a floor that was under construction between us and the rest of the company. I noticed most of the company had no clue who were on the dev team or what we did. So I set up a weekly lunch where we would play board games while playing. This helped us get to know others within the company, and made us feel like part of a larger community. I am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I was surprised by the results. They continue to do this even while I am no longer working there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Everything goes, thanks</comment></comment>


Ask HN: To those here who work in China, do you plan on settling down there? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I'm assuming you're a non-Chinese speaking person. Make sure it's not an impulsive decision.

Last year I stayed in China for quite some time. I traveled across various provinces and cities and I found I was in love with Hangzhou. I wanted to settle down there. After all, it seemed perfect.

A month later, I flew back to my home. Days passed and I realized how much of a blunder I would've made if I had settled down there. Especially don't under- estimate the firewall, surveillance and safety issues. If these attributes don't matter, you'll be fine, but, if you're a developer, VPN isn't sustainable and will get frustrating after a while.

However, this is all my personal experience. Just my $0.02.

<comment><USER3> > safety issues

Can you explain what you mean by safety issues? Having traveled to China a lot I've always been under the impression that it's quite safe so I'm assuming since you've bundled it with the firewall and surveillance that you refer to something to do with the government making one unsafe.

<comment><USER2> 1\. Pickpockets. Everywhere. Literally.

2\. Crazy car drivers. I almost got killed twice during my short stay.

3\. Laws. If something happened to you, you can never fight a case against them. It's always Chinese first vs foreigners.

4\. Air quality isn't the best. That's a health issue, but just want to add it here.

4\. Drunk people roaming at odd times. But this varies from city to city.

5\. Food hygiene. (Also a health issue).

Just a few from the top of my head.

<comment><USER4> Regarding air pollution, is it because of the smoke emitting from vehicles or the factories? You'd think, because China seems to be pushing their way into the top to becoming a tech-savvy country, that they will do something about it. I guess it's the price to pay for advanced technology, what do you think?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You can't settle down there. You can live there for a time. The very fact that someone even thinks that this is a question that can be asked about China reveals a lot about how little those outside China know what it is. This viewing other countries though the lens of your own is not just a western thing. I once shared with a chinese collegue about my plans to travel to various cities throughout canada upon my return, living here and there, and they were very concerned. When I asked what they were concerned about they asked me if I had managed to get all my various permissions papers from work units, city councils, provincial authorities, etc. He was aghast when I told him none of that is needed in canada. He told me that they had been told other countries operated just like China does.

</comment><comment><USER6> I've been here (Beijing) for 6y and currently have no plans to leave. But I also don't think I've ever really considered settling down here.

Life in general is still quite interesting, and I like the city, love the food and travelling around in China. But government and rule changes, the bad pollution days, crazy real state market, all contribute to not settling down per se.

<comment><USER7> I don't live in China, but I have the same experience. No plans to leave, but never considered setting down either. Currently 5+ years in Bangkok.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I lived in Macau for 7 years, which was handed over to China in 1999, but doesn't get fully turned over to China for 49 years after that. There were no Great Firewall issues, but the biggest concern for me living over there was quite simply air pollution. My youngest child was born there, and we left when she was 8 months old to live in Indonesia. I was just looking at the air quality index for Asia before reading this [1]. China is in the high 100s to 300s, and even in rural areas it is not what you would expect. I am in Nyack, NY now where the index is 28 or thereabouts. The air quality in China is a deal breaker for me, even though I find China beautiful. I grew up in Brooklyn, and the air at its worst was no where near China's. I've heard anecdotal comparisons these levels of air quality being equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.

[1] [https://aqicn.org/map/#@g/16.3424/114.6094/3z](https://aqicn.org/map/#@g/16.3424/114.6094/3z)

</comment><comment> em-bee there are two parts to settling down.

quitting your job and selling your old home, potentially making it harder to go back.

and finding a way to stay in china permanently.

the latter is only easy if you get married to a chinese. the former is not a dealbreaker, as you can always find a new job and home in your native country.

i have been living in different countries across the planet, and in any one of them could have settled. but even if i had decided to settle, nothing would have prevented me from reversing that decision.

even now, although i am staying here with the vision that i might be here for a few decades or even the rest of my life, i am not prevented from changing my mind at any point of time. the only "difficulty" is making sure my kids can go to school somewhere, but other than that, i am settled on the planet earth, and the only reason i can't leave that is because we haven't developed the technology for space travel (as opposed to space exploration) yet.

what i am trying to say is: don't worry about the question. don't worry about making an impulsive decision.

go to china and see how you like it. find a job and stay there as long as you like it. nothing is permanent, and you can always go back or try somewhere else.

greetings, eMBee.

</comment><comment><USER9> My foreign friends, especially older professionals are leaving in droves from Shanghai the last 12-18 months as foreign companies dis-invest. It's a sad trend to watch.

</comment><comment><USER10> Nothing is settled in China.</comment>


Ask HN: Coworking Owners, What are Your Membership Policies? - <AUTHOR>

Perhaps a few of you operate out of Coworking locales, or even operate one yourself.  Do you include as part of the application process a contract agreement, or do prospective members simply fill out one application, and agree by virtue of their membership to abide by terms and conditions decided by the community?<p>Any input and advice is always appreciated. <comment><USER2> <http://coworking.pbwiki.com/> email a couple of them, and I'm sure they'd be willing to help you out.</comment>


We've always been at war with Eastasia - <AUTHOR> http://blog.erratasec.com/2016/02/weve-always-been-at-war-with-eastasia.html <comment><USER2> One of the downsides of the web, and a good reason to fear the loss of printed journalism. I really appreciate a concrete of not only the risk, but that the risk was actualized in this specific case. Amazing.</comment>


Bullet journal: A simple productivity system that just uses pen and paper - <AUTHOR> http://qz.com/701309/people-are-falling-in-love-with-a-simple-productivity-system-that-just-uses-pen-and-paper/ <comment><USER2> Hello, I'm the author of this article, and just wanted to add something here: for anyone who finds the Bullet Journal method overwhelming, there's another system called Strikethru that might appeal more. It's still based on pen and paper, but is designed to be a bit less complex and doesn't use an index at all.

Here's the official Strikethru site: [http://striketh.ru/#welcome](http://striketh.ru/#welcome)

And here are a couple of blog posts I've written about my own process that might be useful. I generally use a mixture of ideas from Bullet Journal and Strikethru.

[http://blog.bellebethcooper.com/strikethru- notebook.html](http://blog.bellebethcooper.com/strikethru-notebook.html)

[https://exist.io/blog/strikethru/](https://exist.io/blog/strikethru/)

And finally, I wrote another article recently that looked at both these systems, as well as some other less-developed analogue methods that you might find useful: [https://foundrmag.com/analog-methods-for-getting-things- done...](https://foundrmag.com/analog-methods-for-getting-things-done- superpower-your-productivity-with-pen-and-paper/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Great concept. Tempting, but the digital version I set up saves a bit of drudgework with the pen and could be a little more private. [0]

I like the bullet signifiers. I split events and tasks into calendar and todo list, but the bullets could work in a long, timestamped single file. Perhaps using # to comment out lines that are complete. Might make more sense than the archiving I do by moving to the bottom of the todo list. Actually, my calendar events comment out the done lines, so perhaps the todo really should too. Anyway, good share.

[0] [https://github.com/luxpir/plaintext- productivity](https://github.com/luxpir/plaintext-productivity)

<comment><USER4> Nice, but IMO it falls, as the Bullet Journal, into the category of beauty over result. I just think that simpler, less structured systems provide comparable results in terms of getting things done, while wasting less effort on the nonessential aspect of system.

As for alternatives, my favourite is t ([http://stevelosh.com/projects/t/](http://stevelosh.com/projects/t/)). Truth be told, it may be way too simple. But yet again, _complexity needs to be justified_.

As a side note, remember that you can do for organizing tasks an argument similar to xkcd's on automation:

[https://xkcd.com/1205/](https://xkcd.com/1205/)

[https://xkcd.com/1319/](https://xkcd.com/1319/)

<comment><USER3> Suspect we're singing from same hymn sheet. Not sure if you read the linked blog post but the idea was to cut complexity and to push back against the creation of endless to-dos into a pit of unending pain. A no-cruft list, with some kanban features, but zero-code was the plan.

t is not more simple than a plain text file. It invariably contains hundreds of lines of code and encourages you to throw tasks into an invisible task-pit.

So yeah, I think it's a case of whatever works for the individual, but pruning and preening an organisational system, constant reviewing and decision-making about the list itself; that's not what I had in mind.

Cheers for looking :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> From a workflow perspective, this is basically a practical tickler system (but also integrates notes/collections). Ticklers can be very helpful for removing anxiety about things falling through the cracks, but requires staying in the habit or they become useless. Another once popular system was 43 folders.

imo, the major innovation of GTD and related systems is the inclusion of context beyond do/due dates - specifically the notion of resource availability and alignment towards explicit long-term goals. Done right, this can bring clarity to 'next action' in a way that decreases the incremental cognitive load to select a task to complete - hypothetically making it easier to act in a state of flow and stay in the habit.

Everyone's different, and if any system works for a while thats a win. If you talk to a productivity coach / trainer they will probably share experience that the GTD-type systems have the best impact on busy professionals long- term. When someone figures out how to remove the cognitive overhead of both organization and task selection in a contextual todo-list, I believe its going to change the way many people work.

</comment><comment><USER6> Here are some critiques of this technique: [http://blog.sandglaz.com/demystifying-the-bullet-journal- why...](http://blog.sandglaz.com/demystifying-the-bullet-journal-why-analog- task-management-sucks/) [http://joshmedeski.com/bullet-journal-didnt- work/](http://joshmedeski.com/bullet-journal-didnt-work/)

I personally just use Google Tasks for deadlines, Google Keep for shopping lists, etc., and a private Google Doc for notes (like a private blog/journal). And of course there are kanban board tools like Trello for collaborative productivity/projects.

<comment><USER7> I don't see the points of the 'critiques'.

Everyone needs their own system, it'll work for some, but not for others. I find I actually need analogue feedback for my system to work. I need to physically cross things off.

For example I tried a workflow on computer like you and it wasn't satisfying, crossing off tasks wasn't rewarding enough. Clicking a little tick box is not as psychologically rewarding as crossing off on a list with a pen.

So now I use a small pad that each day I write a list of things to do on, and cross them off. Then throw away the list at the end of the day. I can plan ahead a little bit by flipping pages, or defer a task using the same method.

For keeping track of everything and for planning, I use Asana, set up in a getting things done style (using projects for inbox, next actions, projects, someday/maybe).

So a combination of digital and analogue.

The other great thing is that because I make a new task list everyday I'm more realistic about what I can get done. If I have a bad day, I can reflect why before I throw it in the bin, and then I'm over it, it's done. It's liberating to me, because failing to do things previously upset me and long to do lists haunted me. Plus I can slip little chores in without putting them in Asana.

It's the first system I've managed to stick to in a decade and it's working great for me. The only thing I haven't solved is the work/life split. Having all of them on the same Asana/to do list feels wrong, but I don't want to manage two sets of Asana/lists.

Back to the critiques, one of your critiques didn't even bother to try the technique, personally I find that disgusting, trashing someone else's work without even trying it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The charm of pen and paper is simplicity and restriction. It is simple to implement this /bullet journal/ in a plain text file, but then... you want to add a timestamp; you want to add more markups; you want to add links; you want to add tags; you want to add code snippets; you start to move around your file aimelessly for an hour;... You whole text file life scheme blows up in front of you and you don't even know what hits you.

Think of why people like type writers? Simplicity and restriction! You are forced to focus on writing down what's on your mind.

Is there a solution on our over powered computers? Yes. Use ed, the text editor!

<comment><USER9> I'm in love with todo.txt ([http://todotxt.com/](http://todotxt.com/)) as my preferred level of features vs. simplicity.

I have two desktop "clients" (one of them is an app with a Pomodoro client implemented, and the second one is GNOME extension), they cooperate with each other nicely using two files (one is called todo.txt and the second one is done.txt, where the tasks I have finished get archived), I sync those two files via ownCloud and I can access my to-do list on my phone.

I always have those files with me, and, since they're nothing more than text files, I can do whatever I want with them.

<comment><USER10> Interesting. But it seems as if there's only one official iOS app available. If we're using an open format like text files, wouldn't it be useful to be able to change apps/clients easily? Similar to a feed reader - I use Feedbin as the backend to collect and manage my feeds. However as a client I often switch between Reeder, Unread or Mr. Reader. I'd like to see something like Feedbin for Todos/GTD - how portable is the data if the official apps seem to be the only ones using the Todotxt data?

<comment><USER11> No such problem with Android. Several apps and some other apps support todo.txt for some features (pomodoros, for example). Maybe some kind of cultural difference?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I really like it, I have been basically using a much dumber "system" (I guess everyone tend to come up with something similar intuitively, when the need of having a minimum of organization arise) where I just list the task for the day in a notebook page in order of priority, strike the ones that I manage to finish and carry the rest to the next day.

It is inefficient and limited, but the advantage of having a physical list sitting in front of you that can be effortlessly updated and referenced as a glance trumps most more "advanced" methods using a computer. This seems like a smart extension of that very basic method.

Like diets, the best productivity systems are the ones are those you are able to keep indefinitely without too much effort, the moment that organizing the task organizer becomes a task itself, the less likely you are to stick with it, IME.

</comment><comment><USER13> Howdy, Ryder here - the creator of the Bullet Journal. Let me know if you have any questions.

<comment><USER14> No questions, just thanks for writing this up years ago! I've been using it ever since.

<comment><USER13> Wonderful to hear!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've been using a bullet journal inspired system for a while now. Picked up the numbered pages, mostly sticking to one topic per page and maintaining the index for the particularly interesting pages. Also there's the note-taking tic of writing everything as single-line bullet points which makes it easier to do quick stream-of-consciousness capture. The notebook is filled chronologically, each page gets a date marked on the margin. The note pages are useful for thinking aloud about problems even if I never read them again later.

Instead of the planning calendar, I've got a daily done things calendar. Each month gets a dedicated page, and the page gets a one-line summary of what I accomplished that day. This builds up a long-term log of what I've been doing with minimal daily effort. Didn't really figure out the more complex calendar systems in bullet journal and I use a digital calendar to track appointments. The journal is more of a thinking tool than a time management tool.

The final bit is TODO lists inspired by the autofocus system. All active TODO items must live on a single notebook page. Once the page is full, open items must either be abandoned or migrated to the next TODO page. This keeps the list from going stale and works very well with analog notebook pages. I can get an immediate view of the current work situation by just looking at the live TODO page.

</comment><comment><USER16> I really wish I could start and stick to something like this. I once worked in a newsroom with a reporter who had the best/simplest list for story ideas. He just used a legal pad and wrote new ideas on each line. He then had a system of symbols to signify importance, status, etc. I've strived for something like that since then, but I have not been successful at sticking to it.

</comment><comment><USER17> I tried to hack together my own personal stack overflow or Q&A system using a directory of text files and Sublime Text (any other text editor that has regular expression searching also work). Basically, each fact or note that I wanted to be able to retrieve would be stored as semi-structured text that is easy to search using regular expressions. For example, when I was first learning web development, I saved a note like this in my note file:

      {
        [how do you create a simple image button in html and css]
        -> style:
           .simple-button {
                background-image: url(...),
                background-repeat: no-repeat,
                background-position: center,
                background-size: 100% 100%,
                width: 100px,
                height: 100px,
                display: inline-flex
           }

      }

I had a directory called "knowledgebase" which had numerous files with similarly structured notes. In order to find the note above using keywords, I would just do a search of the knowledgebase directory in Sublime Text using the regular expression:

      ^\{\s*\[.+button.+css.*\]

At first I was pretty excited about the method because it actually saved me a few times when I needed to find some boilerplate Linux bash scripts and vim keyboard shortcuts. Unfortunately, the small bit of initial success left me wanting to add more features to the extent that I was never satisfied with the notation for structuring questions and answers. First I used the system for simple notes and Q&A. Then the notation had to support hierarchical notes, like a tree. Eventually, decided I was going to write a program to parse these Q&A files and expose them as a mobile application that I could search via voice. This seemed like a pretty good idea until I decided that what I _really_ needed was to not only be able to search notes by voice but also create them. The whole project kept growing until eventually I dropped the whole note taking thing and turned my attention to the general problem of NLP for question answering.

If I had simply been satisfied with the original, simple process and stuck to it these last couple of years, I'd have a pretty comprehensive and useful knowledgebase by now. I realize that I'm too lazy to keep such a system up to date but hopefully I can adopt something similar as a commenting convention in my source files to make code fragments searchable.

</comment><comment><USER18> You could probably do this with emacs org-mode pretty well too

<comment><USER19> How did I know that someone would come in here to comment that emacs could already do this?

[https://xkcd.com/378/](https://xkcd.com/378/)

<comment><USER20> To be fair, they weren't saying it already did it. They were saying emacs (org mode) would be a useful platform for implementing it. Very different.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I did a comparison of Bullet Journal and Consol: [https://www.consol.io/5-reasons-why-youll-like-consol-if- you...](https://www.consol.io/5-reasons-why-youll-like-consol-if-you-like- bullet-journal/)

</comment><comment><USER22> I already have calendars and agendas where I can write. I do not see how using a plain notebook and writing a calendar by hand every month is going to improve my productivity.

I am sure this method has its benefits and, looking at some comments, it is helping many people. But I think that all these manual tasks like the calendar, writing the page numbers, or keeping an index distract me and do not let me to see what really is the added value of this method.

<comment><USER23> I've used in the past and it's actually no distraction at all, it's something you do on the 1st day of the month and forget about it, doesn't take more than 20 minutes in total for a whole year (to number pages, write the calendar and all).

Surely it doesn't distract at all from the core of keeping tabs on what you're doing and in the day-to-day usage.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I always find myself hoping that someone will come up with an e-ink notepad of some kind with multiple pages. If you've ever used a BoogieBoard, you get what I'm looking at. The killer for me, and the reason I never use a paper notepad is because it can't be cleanly erased.

<comment><USER25> Have you tried FriXion pens? They erase more cleanly than a pencil. Of course, "erase" is a relative term here, since the ink reappears if you put your notebook in the freezer. But unless you're worried about someone resurrecting your erased items it might work for you.

<comment><USER26> I've heard horror stories where someone wrote an exam with one of those pens, it was stored in the professor's car where it got hot in the sun, and the ink disappeared since the ink 'erases' via heat from the rubber eraser.

<comment><USER27> And it comes back again if you put it in the freezer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'd keep my pen and paper if my hand writing was legible.

I wish there was a way top clean up my hand writing.

<comment><USER29> Recently I decided to do something about my handwriting, and I went from barely-legible scrawls to being able to write in any of a dozen fonts in the space of a few weeks (less than an hour practice a day). If you want to fix your handwriting, start by slowing down, and try to write just a few sentences in a nice, consistent style.

Think of it not as writing, but as doodling, just with letters being your doodles. Once you've played around like that for a few hours, look up some penmanship resources and try to mimic some writing styles. If you really get into it, try some calligraphy, it's a lot of fun. People regularly comment and compliment my handwriting now. (But if I go back to top-speed, it becomes a scrawl again.)

<comment><USER30> Can you recommend any penmanship resources?

<comment><USER31> Yes, please. My children have better penmanship than I do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> This reminds me of a the dash-plus system for note taking: [http://patrickrhone.com/dashplus/](http://patrickrhone.com/dashplus/)

</comment><comment><USER33> I like Wunderlist. I just pop everything I need to do into that and it is nice and simple. I could probably use it better but tbh just having a central list of everything I need to do is pretty helpful.

Sometimes I find over complicating your todo list just means you end up spending more time on your todo list, time you could spend on actually doing items in the list.

Also the pomodoro technique is pretty good for smaller tasks. Obviously not everything can be broken down to work with it perfectly but for about 80% of tasks it does work well imho.

</comment><comment><USER34> So every time you want to note something important you have to add it to the index? Denormalization at its finest, I suppose. The index reminds me of a page table.

<comment><USER2> The index is really only for things you want to find again later, like important meeting notes. For your every day task lists you can leave those out of the index.

If the process of indexing doesn't appeal, however, you might prefer the Strikethru system I mentioned in my other comment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I tried the bullet journal and it didn't fit me.

What instead fit my needs was some simple printable agenda.

I used the ones at [http://philofaxy.blogspot.it/p/diary- inserts.html](http://philofaxy.blogspot.it/p/diary-inserts.html)

The good thing is that it costed me as extremely little.

</comment><comment><USER36> Looks interesting. If you can decipher your own handwriting that is. (Which I can't).

</comment><comment><USER37> I don't quite follow. The system is: write down what's happening that day (todos, events, meeting notes), and then if it's something you want to reference later, add it to the index? That's it?

</comment><comment><USER38> Love the index technic! Every notebook that I use rapidly becomes unbrowsable. Go find those notes you took on the phone with a client last week in the middle of all the scribbling.

</comment><comment><USER39> Not sure about the rest of humanity but I got a memory for that...never understood why people waste their time on productivity apps and other nonsense

<comment><USER40> How do you remember what you failed to remember?

How do you even evaluate your memory if youve never catalogued your thoughts for a few years (or less or more) ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Oooh, I tried this before. Never quite got far with it, but it sure went far since then, with the Kickstarter and all.

</comment><comment><USER42> Someone should make an app for that ;-)

<comment><USER43> Check out Workflowy - it has done wonders for me in terms of implementing bullet-journal principles for my work tasks.

[https://workflowy.com/](https://workflowy.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> The future is the past.</comment>


Microsoft rejects call to fix SQL password-exposure risk - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/02/sql_server_password_exposure/

<comment><AUTHOR> It seems to me that the issue here is that storing in plain text allows an attacker to learn the passwords of users - and many users re-use the same password for many resources. So while Microsoft has a point about a compromised installation is already gone - this issue creates further vulnerability for an organization running the software.</comment>


Privacy critique of WhatsApp - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/DoubleJake/status/1234071075258019840 <comment><USER2> I don't see an issue here at all. I don't think anyone expects whatsapp to be a super privacy focused app? There are plenty of alternative messenger apps that are privacy focused if that's your requirements.

I strongly believe if you asked the majority of users with an engineering background if they thought whatsapp kept a log of "all your contacts and group names, past and present, covering multiple phones you've connected to the account, plus your account info" \- they would say yes. These seem like pretty normal things for a messenger app that's focused on UX rather than security to store?

<comment><USER3> Most people do think WhatsApp is a privacy focused app. Not everyone reads Hacker News and knows the basics of this sector. They are mostly bamboozled by the E2E encryption argument and fail to see the rest.

<comment><USER4> > You're wrong - most people do think WhatsApp is a privacy focused app.

How do you know this to be true?

> I feel like you just read the first tweet in a seven part thread and came to > a weird conclusion based on an argument that was never made that way.

Why are you being so snarky to anyone who disagrees with you in this thread?

<comment><USER3> I give regular public talks on this matter and ask entire audiences these questions. Most people do think WhatsApp is sort of vaguely more secure than say SMS or Skype and are surprised to learn that it's more complex than E2E encryption. Most people also aren't aware of Edward Snowden beyond just a name in a newspaper.

I'm not being snarky, just direct (kind of typing these fast to talk to as many folks who are interested as possible) , sorry if it came across badly to you, that wasn't the intention

<comment><USER5> What kind of talks are these? I'd be surprised if the audience represented the general Whatsapp userbase.

<comment><AUTHOR> that is argument is a strawman. The general WhatsApp user-base will never watch a tech talk on _any subject_ for the same reason somebody with a driving license will usually not watch videos about how a combustion engine works.

OP is well respected in the infosec community and the fact that he gets attacked and downvoted here tells more about the HN community's ignorance about something that should actually be muscle-memory for anyone who works in Tech. Many commenters here seem to just shovel JSON from A to B in their day jobs, so no surprise that this thread feels more like something you see on Reddit.

<comment><USER6> Come on, please don't defend one person by slurring others. That just makes this place even worse.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I think titles like this are actively harmful.

WhatsApp is the only mainstream messaging platform that uses proper end-to-end encryption by default. From what I've understood, it's much safer than other popular alternatives, such as texting, Facebook Messenger, Slack, iMessage, and, yes, Telegram.

Sure, it's still not perfect. But to casual readers, it's totally not obvious that if WhatsApp is a "dumpster fire", all popular alternatives except Signal and Matrix and the likes are a nuclear disaster.

Nobody at WhatsApp claims that it's good for overthrowing your government. But if I want to send a password to my sister without having her install an app, just to satisfy her brother's tin foil hat, I think WhatsApp is a much better choice than every other option I have readily available.

We should stop driving people from somewhat secure tools towards insecure tools.

<comment><AUTHOR> > From what I've understood, it's much safer than other popular alternatives, > such as texting, Facebook Messenger, Slack, iMessage, and, yes, Telegram.

you forgot WeChat, which is also pretty secure provided that you trust the CCP.

> We should stop driving people from somewhat secure tools towards insecure > tools.

you think that Signal is an insecure tool when compared to WhatsApp?

<comment><USER7> No, but a non security geek will not, when reading a headline calling WhatsApp a dumpster fire, think of moving to Signal. They'll likely move to eg Telegram.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Some valid points there. The problem, for me at least and I guess many other people, is that the vast majority of my contacts uses WhatsApp. I know this probably will never happen, but what I'd love to have is some kind of universal messaging app that connects to all services I want to use. Back in the late 90s there were plenty of internet messengers such as ICQ and Yahoo! Messenger, and IIRC it wasn't long before universal clients were developed.

<comment><USER9> I've heard that one before.

All my contacts are on msn.

On skype.

On myspace.

On facebook.

Now on whatsapp.

It will change.

The only things that haven't up to now are postal addresses, emails and phone numbers.

<comment><USER10> I ended up getting a Microsoft mail account because it was the only way (for us) to respond to customers who used MS's email. So email isn't immune from walling off of gardens either.

<comment><USER11> That sounds wrong. Is your DMARC / DKIM / SPF set up wrong for your email provider or something?

Are you constantly marked as spam?

<comment><USER10> It was a couple years ago now, SPF and DMARC (but not DKIM iirc) were sorted. At the time MS used a third party who you could pay to get "vetted", I got a response that the problem was our server host's had another IP (not the one our emails were sent from) that had once had spam sent from it. So the facts we were responding to customer emails, that our domain had ~12 years of good behaviour, and our email servers IP being clean weren't enough. Even "whitelisting" the domain from the Hotmail/Live/Outlook.com end didn't work.

I'm still smarting, we still sometimes have problems (from a different host now) but just resend via an outlook.com address and it's fine.

So, no never had our domain marked as spam on any dbl that I've checked (but only done that sporadically).

We also had a blip with Gmail around the same time (but not the exact same time), but I reported it as a false positive and it was fixed in a few days; no problems since.

We were/are sending so few emails (<1 day average) that it's not worth me spending a couple of days trying to see through the murk of MS to fix it. We're probably not losing any revenue, just have to treat MS sent emails differently to everyone else's.

Sounds wrong to me too ;o)

<comment><USER11> That's a pity. I wonder how you ever get off some organisation's bad lists!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> To sum up, WhatsApp stores metadata that's required to run the service, and previous contacts and groups on top of that. The additional information is probably retained in order to fight spam (not an easy task in an end-to-end encrypted setting with more than one billion of users).

Facebook may be evil, but not because of WhatsApp.

</comment><comment><USER13> Now, I hate WhatsApp as much as the next guy, but no matter how much I re-read this thread I can't see the issue for the life of me. Isn't it obvious it's doing all those things? Of course it stores all your groups, of course it syncs all your contacts: it explicitly asks for permission to do so.

</comment><comment><USER14> pretty misleading title. not exactly clickbiat, since it provides some "dumpster fire" aspects, but leaving the title like this alone makes it seem that, in its totality, it is a dumpster fire.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'd like to stop using WhatsApp but it's complicated.

The foothold it has over here in Europe (The Netherlands) is enormous. Everybody uses it, there's even neighbourhood watches that use it, see: [https://cdn.nieuws.nl/media/sites/305/2015/12/05153708/atten...](https://cdn.nieuws.nl/media/sites/305/2015/12/05153708/attentie- whatsapp-buurtpreventie.jpg)

Any advice? Just pull the plug and pay the social cost?

<comment><USER11> Yep! I'm not on it and never have been (I've been through all the IM systems over the years - MSN, ICQ, IRC, Skype, Hangouts, GChat, GTalk, AIM Messenger, Yahoo! Messenger, iMessage literally used every single one, forced to use the memory hog Slack at work) and thought I didn't want to jump on the next bandwagon since SMS fills 99.9% of my needs, and if not, just email me.

Turns out that people don't bother communicating with you if you're on SMS, and can never be bothered to write an email.

This implies that the communication they were going to send is not important. If it were, they'd write an email. And people don't like the cost of MMS and soon stop sending me stupid pictures.

I can archive email + SMS, not any of the other chat systems.

I hardly get bothered by any notifications or interruptions or silly photos unlike my wife's phone that is constantly binging and buzzing and silly comments from "family chats" and work chats eg. "lol rofl haha random internet picture"

It's refreshingly quiet.

If others can't be bothered to find a method to communicate with you, they can't be very sociable? Their friendship and social interaction with you seems to be tied to an app. That's not a social cost - that's a social price.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> WhatsApp is certainly not the least tolerable of all the dumpster fires that are the IM apps that exist today.

I really like the ideas behind matrix.org but that is a dumpster fire of epic proportion.

</comment><comment><USER17> Keep seeing people who are privacy focused complaining about apps that rely on phone numbers for sign up and identification. Honestly would think if you're concerned about that then handing over your phone number should be the last thing you're doing.

</comment><comment><USER18> Soo just like any other messenger app ever? All the drawbacks are shared. It is not only whatsapp. The idea that with a social graph and metadata you can abuse stuff is hardly novel.

<comment><USER19> Not exactly, and its a bit ignorant to claim that..

Storing that amount of information for extended period of time, cataloging it under your identifiable information was not done by all messenger apps.

If I leave a WhatsApp group immediately after I don't like what was posted, the data will still reference me.

That's not great. It doesn't need to be permenant. Thats kinda the point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Is the back-end of WhatsApp like the back-end of the Facebook and Messenger apps? I.e. loads of teams, lots of redundant code, massive attack surface, constantly breaking, etc?

<comment><AUTHOR> their broken input sanitation suggests exactly that. e2ee is just a marketing gimmick if the system as a whole can easily be pawned in other ways. NSO, FinFisher and all the other players peddling exploits to low-ranking LE are having a field day with WhatsApp for reasons that have nothing to do with e2ee. WhatsApp is as much snake-oil as Telegram, and OP was right in calling it a dumpster fire.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> The amusing thing is that he complained about this on Twitter. Twitter... the 4chan of messaging.

<comment><USER3> Hi I'm the OP of this thread. It's not a complaint at all, it's just awareness raising. This stuff is really obvious. Twitter is a tool used by the masses so why not use it to educate and inform.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> No, WhatsApp is not a dumpster fire. It might be a dumpster fire in ONE aspect the some of people care about, but:

It is also one of the most responsive messengers out there. It's also one of the rare messengers what are reliable also on 2G and other very slow and spotty networks. It's also one of the rare messengers that includes video calls, voice calls and mutiple other features that make communication easy. It supports groups, invitations via links and multiple other features that make coordination of communities easy and seamless. And it also doesn't lose all your messaging history everytime your phone breaks.

Privacy crowd needs to start understanding this and needs to stop behaving like robots who don't understand WHY people use these apps although they might be "dumpster fire" in that one privacy aspect. And then move to fix Signal and other to make sure they're not "dumpster fire" in aspects the wide users actually care about.

<comment><USER3> No one is disagreeing with any of those things, the thread was intended to be "from one aspect only". Here is something I wrote last year covering the issues you just raised. [https://risky.biz/e2e-not-pointless- but/](https://risky.biz/e2e-not-pointless-but/)

<comment><USER23> Whatsapp adopted the Signal Protocol back in 2015. They unilaterally started enforcing E2E for _billions of people_ despite not having any obvious business case for it. And they implemented it well: it's not optional, and completely seemless for all users. It just works in Whatsapp's otherwise great UX. Just the fact they have E2E alone makes Whatsapp better than any reasonably popular alternative - it's better from a privacy perspective than Facebook/Instagram messages, Google Hangouts, Telegram, email, sms text, RCS (not really popular but hey), Slack, Discord, Skype and any old school messengers.

I mean I guess it kinda sucks that Whatsapp isn't Signal, or E2E Jabber, or E2E Matrix. But man, it could've been so much worse. It _was_ so much worse. A global network accessible to and used by billions of people sending E2E encrypted messages was a privacy activist's wet dream 6 years ago. Whatsapp's move to E2E alone is amongst the most impactful changes in real-world privacy on the entire internet.

Calling _that_ a 'dumpster fire' because they transparently communicate they still know metadata about you really _does_ make you seem like a robot. 'Dumpster fire' is not a synonym for 'has room to improve'. This kind of talk is par for the course on Twitter surely, but not it's not unreasonable to expect some flak for it.

<comment> ur-whale > And they implemented it well

How would you know? Is WhatsApp source code available anywhere?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Offer HN: Let me build an MVP for you - <AUTHOR> Dear HN ---
I have learnt so much from you all. Here's a small way to give back to the community.
I have some free time these days and I am happy to build an MVP (minimum viable product) for you. I don't want anything in return. I just want to stay busy and build stuff.
My skills - HTML, CSS, Javascript, Node.js, Python, Machine Learning (little bit). + I can pick up anything else that might be required.
Let me know. <comment><USER2> Build a spam filter for Ask HN

<comment><USER3> Would love to read specs you'd propose anon

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You made a previous post, offering a similar thing, how did that work out? Did you manage to build something, or were there mismatched expectations on either side?

</comment><comment><USER5> Can I contact you via email, discord or something?

<comment><AUTHOR> My email is firstname.lastname@example.com if you want to write to me directly.</comment></comment>


Eurosceptic victory, populist parties shocks the establishment in Italy election - <AUTHOR> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/04/italian-election-country-goes-polls-latest-news-results-forecast/ <comment><USER2> I think, they have enough of muslims immigrants, looks like people are desperate.</comment>