The Dark Ages of AI (1985) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2a85/7e042331c53b856b3ad5018454f72d798790.pdf <comment><USER2> Everything that Drew McDermott thought wouldn't really happen did:

> "To sketch a worst case scenario, suppose that five years from now the > strategic computing initiative collapses mis- erably as autonomous vehicles > fail to roll. The fifth gen- eration turns out not to go anywhere, and the > Japanese government immediately gets out of computing. Every startup company > fails. Texas Instruments and Schlumber- ger and all other companies lose > interest. And there's a big backlash so that you can't get money for > anything con- nected with AI. Everybody hurriedly changes the names of their > research projects to something else. This condition, called the "AI Winter" > by some, prompted someone to ask me if "nuclear winter" were the situation > where fund- ing is cut off for nuclear weapons. So that's the worst case > scenario.

> "I don't think this scenario is very likely to happen, nor even a milder > version of it."

Exactly that happened, from the autonomous vehicles not panning out to funding evaporating. I remember it well.

Then Waldrop's comment could almost have been written last week (except for the loss of Marvin, RIP), down to the confusion between computers and "AI".

This Time It's Not Different.

Edit: I actually attended this panel.

<comment><USER3> This time is different. This line doesn't seem to apply so well today:

>The computer seems to be a mythic emblem for a bright, high-tech future that is going to make our lives so much easier.

This time, there's a big groundswell of distrust and anger against "Big Tech."

<comment><USER4> Distrust? Sort of. People like to whine about Facebook, but they are still using it, or they migrate from Facebook to Instagram. Amazon is still growing. The news that the US government was spying on everyone came out years ago, and nobody did anything about it.

The current story is that automation will make all the dull jobs go away, and we're going to get Universal Basic Income. That's the mythic emblem for a bright, high-tech future, alive and well.

I work in AI, and nobody is stopping to ask the question: how happy are people going to be in a future without a practical sense of purpose, where a machine can do anything you could do better than you? Yes, I know, if you're a well- adapted individual, you should be able to derive your sense of purpose somewhere else besides work... Like, by making paintings that nobody will care about.

<comment><USER5> > _Like, by making paintings that nobody will care about._

That didn't work out for Hitler.

<comment><USER4> UBI utopia: everyone is free to live life to the fullest, pursue their creative passion and have fulfilling friendships in a stress-free environment.

UBI dystopia: everyone is crammed in a tiny standardized living unit, barely long enough to lie down in, the cities are all slums. Everyone feels useless and disconnected. People spend their time playing videogames, using VR porn and doing copious amounts of chemical drugs.

<comment><USER5> _> People spend their time playing videogames, using VR porn and doing copious amounts of chemical drugs._

This is a more likely outcome, since it is already the trend.

<comment><USER2> Because that's the current social matrix in some societies but it need not be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There was quite an interesting take on the period by Moravec on how the hardware available had stagnated during that period ([https://jetpress.org/volume1/moravec.htm](https://jetpress.org/volume1/moravec.htm)). The 1 million instructions per second compares with say the $120 "Best budget graphics card AMD Radeon RX 570" today which does 5,100,000 million instructions per second so quite a difference.

>Funding improved somewhat in the early 1980s, but the number of research groups had grown, and the amount available for computers was modest. Many groups purchased Digital's new Vax computers, costing $100,000 and providing 1 MIPS. By mid-decade, personal computer workstations had appeared. Individual researchers reveled in the luxury of having their own computers, avoiding the delays of time-shared machines. A typical workstation was a Sun-3, costing about $10,000, and providing about 1 MIPS.

>By 1990, entire careers had passed in the frozen winter of 1-MIPS computers, mainly from necessity, but partly from habit and a lingering opinion that the early machines really should have been powerful enough. In 1990, 1 MIPS cost $1,000 in a low-end personal computer. There was no need to go any lower. Finally spring thaw has come. Since 1990...

</comment><comment><USER7> There is some frighteningly prophetic speculation here, and not just about AI:

"Governments can use large databases to violate people's privacy and to harass them. For that matter, credit card companies can do that, too. One can even envision a natural language system that monitors telephone conversations."

Written in 1985. Before the Internet. Wow.

<comment><USER8> 1985 wasn't really before the internet, just before the public proliferation of access to it, and browsers as a tool for navigating.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> And here's an editorial about the AI winter that actually did happen, starting around five years after Drew McDermott's opening comment, just for that extra bit of cosmic irony:

Avoiding Another AI Winter

James Hendler, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute

[https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/ex/2008/02/mex2008020...](https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/ex/2008/02/mex2008020002/13rRUyeCkdP)

</comment><comment><USER4> I wonder if it's not just a question of human nature for things to go into a cycle of overhyped boom and bust. People get very excited about something, progress doesn't happen fast enough, and then they get bored and move on to something else.

If we look at Google Trends, it looks like "deep learning" has hit a plateau back in 2017: [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=d...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=deep%20learning)

Artificial intelligence peaked in January 2018: [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=a...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=artificial%20intelligence)

I work in AI and I'm very much thinking that another AI winter could come. I find myself wondering where are all the real-world AI deployments, and how effective they are. To my knowledge, there aren't super successful AI startups out there. There are startups getting a lot of investor money for AI research, but they do not have profitable business models. The venture capitalists are going to get tired of that at some point, if they aren't already.

<comment><USER10> There's a bunch of extremely valuable progress in less glamorous areas, like data center operations:

[https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/google- alphabet/google-s...](https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/google- alphabet/google-switching-self-driving-data-center-management-system)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Url changed from [https://aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/download/4...](https://aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/download/494/430) to one that doesn't do an auto download.</comment>


Quasimusic: music from quasiperiodic tilings (2012) - <AUTHOR> http://www.gregegan.net/APPLETS/34/34.html <comment><USER2> 2012, the year we still could run Java applets inside our browsers.

<comment><USER3> or not, I'm behind a corporate firewall and it doesn't start (although we're a 99% java company :-) )

<comment><USER4> I think you're in agreement! In 2012 you could run Java in the browser. Not so much in 2018.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Also worth mentioning Matthew Skala's "Black Swan Suite", another set of music generated from quasiperiodic tilings. He has a nice writeup explaining how it works.

[http://audio.northcoastsynthesis.com/index.php?a=blackswan](http://audio.northcoastsynthesis.com/index.php?a=blackswan)

</comment><comment><USER6> I've been working on a daw that integrares done of these ideas to make you more productive. [https://www.ngrid.io](https://www.ngrid.io)

</comment><comment><USER7> Could someone with Java post what produces somewhere, eg. transfer.sh

<comment><USER5> The linked pieces by John Baez ([http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/music/quasimusic/](http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/music/quasimusic/)) are mp3s, so they at least are easy to play.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why is assembly language skyrocketing on TIOBE? - <AUTHOR> In April 2015, the TIOBE rating % for assembly language was 0.656; and for many years it has consistently hovered around the 0.5 mark.
In April 2016, that rating was 2.193, even making it to #9 in the programming language rankings for January! Number 9. Assembly language.
What's going on?
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index?page=Assembly%20language <comment><USER2> My guess is that since "Moore's Law" is no longer in effect, some people perceive that they have to use the most efficient programming languages.

Yes, I know that Moore's Law refers to doubling of transistor count every 18 months, not doubling speed every 18 months, but it's the "slowing down" of speeding up that's the issue here.

</comment><comment><USER3> There is also a surge in new programming languages. So I am guessing some people are going back to the bare metal for that purpose?</comment>


ACTION REQUIRED: Discontinuing of Xeround Cloud Database Service - <AUTHOR> http://vassvdm.tumblr.com/post/49380659169/action-required-discontinuing-of-xeround-cloud

<comment><AUTHOR> Can anyone recommend a good cloud-MySQL replacement ? Obviously installing MySQL ourselves at some IaaS provider is an option, and Amazon RDS another. Would be grateful to hear more suggestions and prod and cons.</comment>


Ask HN: Gifts you recommend to make infants curious about cs and tech? - <AUTHOR> Hey HN,
christmas is coming and I am searching for gifts to make an infant (3 years) curious about cs or tech in general.
I think it is more important to develop a rough understanding of how things work, I do not think that a computer has to be involved.
I am looking for a similar present for a 15 year old teenager, too. Similar in terms of developing curiousity in cs. This teen is generally interested in tech and cs but I feel like she does not know how to get started (I think she's missing a cool project as a push).
Any advice? I am curios about your answers! <comment><USER2> A few years ago we bough our daughter a set of Snap Circuit [https://www.google.com/search?q=snap+circuit&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=snap+circuit&tbm=isch) She liked it a lot (get one with a fan). I think it's a toy for a 7-10 year old, so not in the range of age you want :( , but consider it in a few year.

Later, we bough her an Arduino set, one with instruction for small projects. I can't find the exact set, but there are a few sets of $15 in [https://www.amazon.com/s?k=arduino&i=electronics](https://www.amazon.com/s?k=arduino&i=electronics) We added a few additional pieces, like a 7-segment led display. This can be suitable for the 15yo.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, looked at both and find it really interesting. I was thinking about a microcontroller set for the 15yo, too. So it will definitely have a closer look at the sets.

I did not know the Snap Circuits sets but, ad you mentionrd, this may become really interesting in the future.

Thank you very much for thilese suggestions!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Nothing, steer them away from tech to be curious in non tech things.

Children need not the slightest encouragement to become interested in tech. The question is how do you get them to take an interest in anything else.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting answer / point of view? Is that based on your own experience or his did you develop this opinion?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> A Leatherman multi-tool is a good gift for a fifteen year old. Tech isn't something on a screen.

<comment><AUTHOR> What do you have in mind when suggesting a leatherman? Promoting fantasy and creativity in nature by providing a multi purpose tool?

<comment><USER4> A Leatherman multi-tool enhances competence and is useful throughout a person's lifetime. To me, that qualifies it as a good gift for anyone five or older...with appropriate supervision at younger ages.

<comment><AUTHOR> Got it. I keep that in mind, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> K'nex is a great one!

<comment><AUTHOR> Knex, it is similar like lego, right? I only got one basic / small knex toolkit in my childhood. What is your opinion: what differentiates it from e.g. Lego? Thanks for the hint!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> One word, lego.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes - Lego is definitely good to get basic understanding. I personally really liked Lego tech but I try to expand my option pool :-)</comment></comment>


Seth Godin's MBA Program Candidates & the Startups they're launching - <AUTHOR> http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/06/learning-from-the-mba-program.html

<comment><USER2> Godin's MBA is pure marketing stuff. It's nice that these people are learning how to be better marketers and salespeople, but to call it an MBA is misleading.

</comment><comment><USER3> So, (1) a free ebook, (2) a niche social network, (3) a social network consultancy, (4) another ebook (I think), and (5) a conference.

I know this isn't exactly the same model, but these aren't exactly YC or TechStars type startups. I don't see much in the way of products with growth potential–just hourly service type work at best.

It would be interesting to have some real MBA profs review and critique these business plans.

<comment><USER4> So the first thing we did in the program was to spend a full week talking about our goals. The reason I'm doing the conference is that it's a good way to pick up some of the skills I'm missing, earn enough money to give myself a runway, create a platform to help me later, build a personal brand, etc. I am going to do a startup after this. And at the end of the day you need to ask yourself whether the goal is to spend six months working on something Mike Arrington thinks is cool, or whether the goal is to be successful in the long term.

The reason two people made the ebook is because they wanted a quick way to learn how to sell $50,000 dollar sponsorships and they needed a product they could make in a couple weeks to do that. The ebook is cool but it's not the point, just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

<comment><USER3> Fair enough ... but ... if you guys are just doing stuff to prepare for your "real" startups, how is that an _alternative_ to a real MBA (other than not spending the money or extra time).

Why not just dive into the startup you really want to do?

Oh, and I never said anything about M Arrington.

<comment><USER4> "Why not just dive into the startup you really want to do?"

Right now being a freelancer is the best way for me to fulfill my current goals. There are a few things I'd love to do as venture backed startups one day, but those projects aren't as good a match for building the assets I'm trying to build right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> More Godin overhype.

Neat experiment, but most people would not consider this troupe on-par with any MBA program after hanging out for 6 months.

Maybe if this was an 18 month program, or maybe if Godin could better articulate how this is more "MBA" than "self-study" the "students" might have some merits.

<comment><USER4> Spending time in the classroom is bullshit. Merit comes from shipping.

<comment><USER6> Let me ask you this, did anyone not pass these MBA classes or fail to get the certificate or whatever he gives you at the end? (I assume you'll all be putting this on your resumes in some form).

<comment><USER4> We're all doing this because we want to learn from Seth. I don't understand how you could frame that in any sort of pass/fail context. Seth might print out some sort of diploma at the end, he might not, I don't think anyone really cares.

<comment><USER6> The piece of paper wasn't my point but rather if there was any standard of performance to be met.

<comment><USER4> Part of the deal is that all of our goals have to be falsifiable. That is, you have to be able to point to a goal six months later and be able to say, "I didn't meet my goal." So an example of a falsifiable goal would be to get 1000 RSS subscribers. A non-falsifiable goal would be organizing the world's information. Because there's no way you can be held accountable if you don't succeed.

So in general we each set our own falsifiable goals, and we're responsible for helping each other succeed. So in the sense that there's a performance standard to be met, your punishment for not meeting that standard is not accomplishing your goals.

<comment><USER6> Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Interesting, but let's review in ten years, shall we? Specifically, let's compare the average accomplishments of these "graduates" with graduates from the top 20 MBA programs.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Seth Godin takes a pretty radical approach to developing his "unaccredited, residential and free" MBA program. Godin's obviously a marketing guy, so I have to wonder whether or not he glosses over the importance of at least understanding the basics of accounting and finance. While I don't know that these areas are critical, I think as a business develops they're pretty important assets to have. That said, a few of those startups seem pretty interesting.

<comment><USER4> We spent a couple days on accounting and finance, but not much. I think the general feeling is that while these skills are important to have, it's also possible to learn them from a book in a few days. Whereas there are lots of other skills that are really important but that no one has ever written a book about.

(Also, I took corporate finance as an undergrad so I don't feel too left out.)

I'll write a post on what I got out of the program at one point, but my website actually just launched today so I'm busy working on that. If you want to see the project I'm doing check out swagapalooza.com. I don't know of any traditional MBA programs that don't let their students graduate until their own business is up and running, so that in and of itself is pretty cool.

<comment><USER5> So you are going to be in this program for a couple of years?

 _I don't know of any traditional MBA programs that don't let their students graduate until their own business is up and running_

I would consider a business to be "up and running" when it has proven to be at least semi-viable. Putting up a website and organizing a meeting is not exactly an up and running business, but it is a good start and one of several necessary steps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think what Seth did was great. I deeply regret not applying. I think real MBAs is a crock of S#$%&% and they are in any case sooo 90s.

The personal MBA has had more value for me personally that most of University (<http://personalmba.com/>)

<comment><USER6> Depends on your motivation for the degree.

I'd wager a majority of people who apply to MBA programs (or any degree granting program) are more interested in the doors they open vs the knowledge they'll gain.

Knowledge is cheap these days, thanks to that whole blasted internet thing.

<comment><USER9> It would be great if MBA programs both credentials and skills for the future.

<comment><USER6> There are plenty of those around but unfortunately the entrance qualifications are slightly more rigorous than "out-schmooze everyone else at a cocktail party".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Godin wonder's why people pay for MBA's but he doesn't shrink from having his Stanford MBA on his resume. In a sea of ambition noise people use pedigree as a filter; perhaps having been chosen for this MBA alone will be the real resume and career boost.

</comment><comment><USER11> "Another lesson: I kept an oversized (perhaps giant is a better word) Moleskine by the door, and we wrote down great moments and quotes as the days wore on. We've already worked our way through it frontwards, and now we've turned it over and are working back the other way."

I don't get it. Then what? Does it ever get read, or by writing things down do people remember the quotes and moments better?

<comment><USER12> My comment is off-topic but related. Different people have different learning senses. Visual, audio, and kinesthetic among them. I'm a kinesthetic learner and the act of writing something helps me internalize it in a way the other modes don't. I wouldn't be surprised if Seth Godin was doing different visual and audio things as well. Whoever commented on the Moleskine is probably kinesthetic and that stuck out to them. Just a thought.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Ooh -- I found out about one of these clowns earlier today: <http://www.metafilter.com/82187/Susan-Hires-A-Boss>

<comment><USER14> Here is her LinkedIn profile: <http://www.linkedin.com/in/susanvlewis></comment></comment>


North Korea accuses Trump of declaring war - <AUTHOR> http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/pyongyang-options-table-leadership-170925150424457.html <comment><USER2> > Ri Yong-ho told reporters in New York that North Korea reserved the right to > shoot down US bombers.

> This applied even when they were not in North Korean airspace, the minister > added. The world "should clearly remember" it was the US that first declared > war, Mr Ri said.</comment>


Japanese engineers trash MacBook Air - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13924_1-9875960-64.html <comment><USER2> Of note to me were the repeated complaints about the number of screws. I've repaired laptops semi-professionally for years, and one thing I've noticed is that laptops with a large number of screws tend not to fall apart, while those that have few screws do.

A Dell Latitude CPx (circa 2000) requires the removal of 9 screws to get the motherboard out. An early 14" iBook requires the removal of 81 screws to do the same. The Dell had numerous problems related to the flexing of the chassis. The iBook did not.

<comment><USER3> I'll back this up by saying my Dell Inspiron 9400 has some odd creaking in areas. I'm sure these are just from age, but firstly the cover protecting the ram is now bald because it was painted steel not anodized aluminium, which rather disappointed me as it now looks even uglier.

The main problem is the hard drive is attatched by 2 screws and makes a funny creaking noise. However, the chassis above it flexes visibly with any form of pressure, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the edging snaps clear of the main body. The DVD drive is attatched by one screw and merely having a two-tone CD in the drive can make it vibrate like hell; I believe the worst was the game disc for Black & White, it sounded like the drive was damaging itself. I downloaded a NOCD patch because I was nervous about having it vibrate that much.

In addition to this, the screen is held flimsily on by IIRC two screws and it has lost its rigidity over the years. Even just putting the laptop down while in use can cause the screen to shift by 2.5-5 degrees.

Comparably, I would go with a MacBook next. My brother, who's had his longer than my laptop, has had no problem with his except that they use torx screws so swapping his ram proved mildly problematic. $20 for a 7 piece set fixed that problem though... I'd sure swap the ease of upgrade in my flimsy Dell for an extra $20 to upgrade a sturdy Mac.

<comment><USER2> I've been happy with Thinkpads in the past - they're similarly sturdy and tend to be a bit easier to work on. Since Lenovo took over, quality seems to have dropped a bit if, for whatever reason you don't care for Apple.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The actual review ([http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080220/147736...](http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080220/147736/)) has a familiar flavor of people angrily criticizing something for falling short on what they mistakenly believe to be the critical axes.

<comment><USER4> From the article you linked:

 _"If I proposed such a design, our company would never approve it," said one of the engineers. "I can't find anything that is technically superior. We can make the same computer at a lower cost," said another. Did the MacBook Air's internal structure represent the immaturity of Apple's design skill?_

While their claims sound plausible, I still invoke the ancient rite of "shit or get off the pot."

<comment><USER5> Their claims don't sound that plausible: Apple is full of not-stupid engineers.

<comment><USER4> > Their claims don't sound that plausible: Apple is full of not-stupid > engineers.

s/don't/do/

s/Apple/Japan/

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Usually it's the Japanese companies that excel at this kind of small, sleek electronics... perhaps someone's a little jealous?

</comment><comment><USER7> I think there are probably some really cool Japanese notebooks that never make it to the US or Europe. This company used to make them available: <http://www.dynamism.com/index.shtml> , but looking now, I don't see anything we can't get outside of Japan (at first glance).

<comment><USER8> I worked for a company that sold laptops. We had a request from abroad to purchase five laptops and pay equal amounts on four credit cards held in different names. That doesn't look even vaguely legitimate. Nor was it an isolated incident.

Once you take into account more plausable fraud, damages, refunds and Japanese versions of Windows, I'd presume that selling Japanese laptops outside of Japan is a really quick way of getting burned.

<comment><USER7> Meaning you worked for a japanese company? A friend of mine bought a notebook from dynamism a couple of years ago, so it works. But anyway, I don't want to plug them.

Back then subnotebooks were very rare in Europe (presumably the market didn't want them), but they were popular in Japan, that is why we checked with dynamism. These days, there are some more subotebooks available in the US and Europe, so maybe dynamism doesn't matter anymore.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Here's an interesting response:

<http://brockerhoff.net/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2417#2417>

</comment><comment><USER8> If you want some solid state chic then you can retro-fit a 2.5 inch SATA solid state disk. 832GB capacity is already announced ( <http://www.bitmicro.com/press_news_releases_20080107.php> ) and we could have 1TB by Christmas.

<comment><USER5> Except they use 1.8" disks.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I don't really get the point of the article. Mac builds sturdy laptops, and who cares if they use 5 screws or 500 screws to do it. If Macs design is inefficient and expensive then someone will trump them. However, I've had packages delivered damaged because they paste one strip of tape over the main part of the flap; One package even arrived with the tape a good inch off of the flap, so it made it all the way to my house with half of it being open, and if -- like other companies do -- they had taped along the edges too, it wouldn't have meant half my stuff went missing and cost the company over $200.

<comment><USER10> Everyone who has ever had to work in IT cares. When you need 81 screws to replace a motherboard (as a previous example cited) you wind up spending a magnitude of time longer fiddling with a laptop just to fix it. Multiply that times 100 and you have long support times and disgruntled workers.

The attitude that a laptop has to have eighty billion screws to be well- engineered is nonsense. Thinkpads are the perfect example -- they are known for being extremely sturdy and tough, but also have a reputation for being remarkably easy to work with in terms of parts replacement, etc. Defending Apple for "wanting to make sure it works perfectly" does not hold water -- we may as well admit that they don't really want _you_ poking around in your own computer under any circumstances.</comment></comment>


Glyphosate, pathways to modern diseases II: Celiac sprue and gluten intolerance - <AUTHOR> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/ <comment><USER2> This was published by NIH 6 years ago. Would someone summarize the response in the scientific literature?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> 3 quotes from the discussion (Section 15):

(1) "In this paper, we have developed an argument that the alarming rise in the incidence of celiac disease in the United States and elsewhere in recent years is due to an increased burden of herbicides, particularly glyphosate exposure in the diet."

(2) "A recent estimate suggests that one in twenty people in North America and Western Europe suffer from celiac disease (Koning, 2005; Fasano et al., 2003)."

(3) "Table 2 summarizes our findings relating glyphosate to celiac disease. All of the known biological effects of glyphosate – cytochrome P450 inhibition, disruption of synthesis of aromatic amino acids, chelation of transi- tion metals, and antibacterial action – contribute to the pathology of celiac disease."</comment>


Ask HN: Would you pay for privacy in a social network like Facebook? - <AUTHOR>

Social Networks like G+ or Facebook are based upon either selling your data or co-selling it as in advertisement. This of course has implications on visibility and privacy of _your_ data.<p>I believe, this has to change. For this I'd like to learn, would you pay for a Facebook-like service in order to keep your data private and safe? <comment><USER2> No, but I will (and do) limit my social media activity without it.

And it has nothing to do with advertising. I like that companies know what to show me. I do _not_ like that facebook seems intent on telling everyone I know (and presumably many I don't) what I am doing all the time. Open is not the default for me.

Aggregating likes, interests, and behaviors is not the same as saying "Damon is looking at an article about how bad the Colorado Buffaloes football team is at 12:30 PM". The former actually helps me (at least that's my personal take - others may disagree). The latter does not, and could conceivably harm me.

</comment><comment><USER3> Yes. I would definitely pay Google for some features. (I'd really like an option to "de-bubble" me; I'd really like an option to go back to 2004 style searching; etc.)

Facebook's reach is pretty scary / annoying. I'd gladly pay them to have some of the functionality but with better privacy options.

I'd always consider paying a site to not show adverts. I'd much rather pay a news-site for quality reporting than have to put up with link-bait trolling and ads and [1][2][3] pages of chopped up articles.

</comment><comment><USER4> It depends how critical it is to you. Very few people I know use it more than face to face, or msn/gmail/other digital contact to keep up with people.

It's not really an invasion of privacy if your information is shared to your friends based on your privacy settings, and never seen by the advertisers.

</comment><comment><USER5> Not unless my friends and family were also on the service, since that's the whole point of a social network - and since they're not willing to pay for a Facebook-like service, I'm not likely to either.

</comment><comment><USER6> No. I would simply not give them my data in the first instance. I don't believe you should have to pay for privacy - especially if you are simply an average citizen.

</comment><comment><USER7> Would you pay the mailman to stop him from opening and reading your letters? I would not

<comment><USER8> Reminds of the Gmail Man! - <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCSp23xl40></comment></comment>


Obama Administration's Official Response to Stop SOPA Petitition - <AUTHOR> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/stop-e-parasite-act/SWBYXX55?utm_source=wethepeople&utm_medium=response&utm_campaign=sopa

<comment><USER2> I received an email with their response. Empty blather signifying nothing.

</comment><comment><USER3> Obama embraced many of the central concerns about the NDAA.

Then approved it.</comment>


RFC 2822 regular expression for matching email addresses - <AUTHOR> http://code.iamcal.com/php/rfc822/full_regexp.txt <comment><AUTHOR> Some more details and lighter implementations here: <http://www.regular- expressions.info/email.html></comment>


How the Chinese View Us: Too Many Hamburgers - <AUTHOR> http://nylawblog.com/2010/09/how-the-chinese-view-us-too-many-hamburgers <comment><USER2> Blog spam. Link to original article [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22friedman.html?_r...](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22friedman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion) As usual, Friedman is inadvertently amusing. For example, he writes "China also has regular rotations of power at the top ..."

As far as I am aware, the most recent change in government (at least in the Western sense) was in 1949.</comment>


In historic shift, The Salt Lake Tribune gets IRS approval to become a nonprofit - <AUTHOR> https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/11/04/historic-shift-salt-lake/ <comment><USER2> Wonderful news! For an article and radio show about the change, see [1]. One important purpose for the Tribune is as voice for the non-Mormon (or progressive Mormon) community in Utah; I'm glad they are able to stay alive.

I wonder if this change will allow the Tribune to more easily accept articles written for free by people in the community. Or otherwise accept work for free.

[1] [https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/salt-lake-tribunes- nonprofit...](https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/salt-lake-tribunes-nonprofit- future)

</comment><comment><USER3> While certainly a shift for the Salt Lake Tribune itself, it's certainly not the first non-profit news orgs, right?

NPR has been non-profit since forever.</comment>


The flow language manifesto - <AUTHOR> http://www.flowlang.net/p/flow-manifesto.html

<comment><USER2> Grey Times New Roman at 12px on pastel background makes it an effort to read. It looks good visually, but actual reading is difficult. I would change the font size to 14px and make the font darker.</comment>


How speedy is SPDY? [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://www.usenix.org/sites/default/files/conference/protected-files/nsdi14_slides_wang.pdf

<comment><USER2> > Most performance impact of SPDY over HTTP comes from its single TCP > connection

This is not a surprise at all, because Google _never tested SPDY against HTTP pipelining_. And at least in their mobile test they included the TCP connection time for HTTP but not for SPDY; I suppose their test software just reused the same SPDY connection since the mirrored web pages all were served from the same IP.

They compressed sensitive headers with data leading to CRIME attacks.

They had a priority inversion causing Google Maps to load much slower through SPDY than HTTP.

This new protocol is a complete mess, from beginning to end.

<comment><USER3> Leaving aside the technical statements about SPDY, the reality of HTTP pipelining is that no-one uses it. According to Wikipedia, Opera is the only major browser that ships with pipelining enabled. Most intermediaries don't support pipelining either.

Pipelining was a well-intentioned feature which didn't solve the core problem: namely, that a big or slow request can block you from doing anything else for a really long time unless you open another TCP connection.

<comment><USER2> Except that Microsoft tested SPDY against pipelining and found that pipelining was essentially just as good. So we're left with a situation where Google could have used HTTP pipelining over SSL (so there's no buggy proxies interfering, just like what SPDY does) and gotten pretty much all the benefit with no extra complications at all, but instead there's old HTTP and a new, much more complicated protocol.

And this "head of line blocking" problem... who said it was a problem, Google? In reality you have 4 or more connections that automatically work like spread spectrum where most resources aren't stuck behind a big or slow request. But even if this was an actual problem, a simple hint in the HTML that the resource might take a while and to put other ones on a separate connection would optionally solve this problem, and with almost no extra complexity.

<comment><USER4> _Except that Microsoft tested SPDY against pipelining and found that pipelining was essentially just as good._

Can you point to that?

<comment><USER5> I think parent is referring to [http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/170059/A%20comparison%20o...](http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/170059/A%20comparison%20of%20SPDY%20and%20HTTP%20performance.pdf)

It's a bit sketchy on the details and data - reading it I certainly end up with more questions than answers

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Very nice research, kudos to everyone involved.

I agree with the conclusions, mostly the very last one.

> To improve further, we need to restructure the page load process

To fully utilise the potential of HTTP/2, we will have to rethink the way we create and manage websites. I've posted more thoughts on this on my blog; [https://ma.ttias.be/architecting-websites- http2-era/](https://ma.ttias.be/architecting-websites-http2-era/)

</comment><comment><USER7> It's not surprising that introducing high loss through a network emulator results in reduced performance of a single TCP connection vs. multiple connections. That's because there's a relationship between the maximum bandwidth a single TCP connection can carry and the packet loss % due to TCP's congestion avoidance. Introducing "fixed" packet loss through an emulator isn't necessarily a good representation of a real network where packets would be lost due to real congestion (an overflowing queue).

Throwing many TCP connections into a congested network can let you get a higher share of that limited pipe though...

<comment><USER8> Packet loss on wireless networks often have a certain rate of packet loss unrelated to congestion, due to having not a great signal or interference.

It's somewhat humorous because wireless networks are one of the main purported benefits of SPDY.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Kudos to them for releasing their data and tools [1]! This is how science should work.

[1] [http://wprof.cs.washington.edu/spdy/data/](http://wprof.cs.washington.edu/spdy/data/)

</comment><comment><USER10> That's a nice study.

The main result is that most of the benefit comes from putting everything through one TCP pipe. This, of course, only works if almost everything on a site comes from one host. This is a good assumption for Google sites, which communicate only with the mothership. It's not for most non-Google sites.

<comment><USER11> And for those sites, you can always use HTTP pipelining and avoid the whole SPDY can of worms.

Looking at the facts, it seems pretty obvious that whatever theoretical gains you can get in select scenarios with SPDY, this super-minor gain is not worth it compared to the associated complexity cost.

Not to mention I don't like the idea of Google now not only running the worlds tracking units, the worlds most popular browser and most popular websites, but now also dictating internet-protocols without taking input from other parties.

<comment><USER5> What's the complexity cost in SPDY or HTTP/2's case?

For most optimised HTTP/1.x sites there's already a complexity cost of merging JS files, merging CSS files building sprites - including the tradeoff of getting the bundles right, which of course reduces cachability.

<comment><USER11> > For most optimised HTTP/1.x sites there's already a complexity cost of > merging JS files, merging CSS files building sprites - including the > tradeoff of getting the bundles right, which of course reduces cachability.

And all of this is a build-time problem.

If we're going to engineer the HTTP-protocol to solve build-tooling and development related problems, we might as well add JS-linting and minifying to HTTP itself as well.

Seriously: This problem is best solved elsewhere.

<comment><USER5> You've got it wrong the way around these aren't build-tooling and development related problems, they're problems with HTTP/1.x that we chose to solve using the build process.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Trivia: the PDF is in a folder called "protected-files" \- LOL</comment>


Gemini PDA: 20 years on, meet the all-new Psion Series 5 - <AUTHOR> https://jmcomms.com/2017/11/29/gemini-pda-20-years-on-meet-the-all-new-psion-series-5/ <comment><USER4> I had a Psion 3a, followed by a Revo and then a 5MX.

What was great about them was the ability to quickly flip them open and take notes, or run a command-line program in it's OPL language, pretty much instantaneously.

In the 90s this thing was in some ways more powerful than your regular desktop computer - it had pre-emptive multitasking, SSD storage, ability to use email and connect to the web via IrDA modem phones, as well as a built-in microphone and digital audio. It's Agenda program has still not been bettered in my opinion - giving you the confidence that your appointment is in the right place in the calendar (having just had a reminder come up on my pixel for an appointment meant for this time last year).

I tried to keep the dream alive with the Nokia E90 (which was too app focused and slow, sadly), the N900 (a fantastic machine, hampered by a very limited, tiny keyboard, and again, quite an app-focused desktop/phonetop). After reading online people repeatedly saying that I should just give in and use any modern phone with a bluetooth keyboard, I can now say conclusively that these people had no idea what the Psion was all about.

My hope is that they can make Android or Linux work well with this form factor. The hardware looks perfect (ok I'll admit I would have traded the colour screen for a kindle-like screen for the discretion and battery life), but the thing about the Psion was the speed and ease of operation. I really hope they pull this off!

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> One thought:

Back in 1997-2000, the Psion 5 was anything but niche; it was the leading paradigm for PDAs aside from the Newton/Palm tablet. (It died out due to a bad coincidence: Microsoft pre-announced the Windows CE 3 "Jupiter" platform, configured to look like a Psion killer on paper, right as Psion's CEO David Potter became seriously ill. Psion was sold off and left the field; meanwhile, WinCE 3 failed to set the world alight, and Potter survived.)

But back then, selling a million PDAs meant you were _huge_. Integration between featurephone OS and PDA functionality still lay in the future; indeed, the leading platform, Symbian, was a direct descendant of the Psion Series 5's EPOC/32 OS.

Today, we've got smartphones _everywhere_ , but they mostly look very similar — small tablets with cameras and multitouch screen UIs. Probably not that many people will prefer a keyboard-driven PDA style of device. But there are so many more smartphone users out there that even a 1% niche market is probably bigger than Psion at their peak. Which is why Gemini is of interest: the Android market has gotten so large that it may now support odd alternative device formats.

<comment><USER5> But is "mini-tablet with a usable keyboard" really that odd of a device format these days? On Black Friday, I could have picked up something matching that description at a superstore for less than a C-note. It wouldn't have had the Psion lineage or perhaps not the build quality, but at the price point this device is going for, I don't really see the appeal unless that lineage really means that much to you.

<comment><USER6> Finding a clamshell with a proper keyboard is still hard. This folds up nicely and fits in a jacket pocket.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Damn it, I don't _need_ another computer. I _really_ don't need another Linux machine in my life, even if it runs Debian - which I like very much - <USER2> probably runs it very well. I don't have a use case for a machine like this, even if it does appear very much to be the pocket computer I've never quite managed to stop wanting since earliest childhood. But I'm a grownup now, with adult-sized responsibilities, and I don't want for more worthy purposes to which to put the money I would spend on this.

And yet...

<comment><USER8> It's like you read my mind. It might be easier to bang on with its keyboard though. I'd definitely go with the Linux option over the android.

<comment><USER4> Have you tried termux?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> My main worry about this device is that it will, like most modern phones, quickly become useless due to lack of software updates.

They're building it with Android 7, which was before Project Treble[1], so future updates are at the mercy of all the chip suppliers and their willingness to port their ad-hoc drivers to newer kernels.

When the device stops receiving updates, it won't be safe to use on the Internet anymore and things like out-of-date SSL certificates will break things (see e.g. this video[2] for what browsing the web on Symbian and MeeGo devices looks like today).

[1] [https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/treble](https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/treble)

[2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGji6DPwIYY&t=820](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGji6DPwIYY&t=820)

<comment><USER10> It runs linux natively. Even if android stops getting updates, you can update that as long as you like

<comment><USER9> Not if it needs a forked kernel to support the hardware (at least not without a lot of work).

Also, most GUI applications designed for a traditional GNU/Linux desktop system are not going to work well with a tiny, high-resolution touch-screen.

<comment><USER11> I wonder how convenient it would be to run i3 with a browser and an emacs window or terminal on the thing. That would cover a lot of possible use cases for me.

<comment><USER12> Is Emacs efficient with 2-finger typing?

With the handheld form factor revolution, we need text editors that use that interface as efficiently as Emacs and Vim use the full keyboard interface.

<comment><USER13> I would argue that the keyboard is already the optimal device to both input and manipulate text to the point where touch adds little.

<comment><USER12> I wasn't clear: I meant that Emacs and Vim are optimized for 10-finger typing on full-sized keyboards. We need something for 2-finger keyboards typical on phones, or more broadly something optimized for phone input (maybe including gestures, for example).

<comment><USER13> 2 fingers is so comparatively terrible that there is nothing on earth you could do to make it better than connecting a keyboard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is an ARM android device, with possible Linux support, available sometime in the future.

If you want a x86 device shipping now with 2x the RAM and storage, and running an operating system that gives you the freedom to run a wider range of applications (ie Windows 10 or Linux) and if you do not care too much about the keyboard springs (ie are comfortable with a macbook like "chiclet" keyboard) check instead the GPD Pocket.

[https://www.slashgear.com/gpd-pocket-ubuntu-editon- review-29...](https://www.slashgear.com/gpd-pocket-ubuntu-editon- review-29502163/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/GPDPocket/comments/6idnia/linux_on_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/GPDPocket/comments/6idnia/linux_on_gpd_pocket/)

I am getting one to run statistical software and Mathematica. Costs about $450 from China, also available on Amazon prime if you need it now.

I considered waiting for the Gemini, because it has LTE and a better keyboard, but the large bezel on the right of the screen made me decide against it. If they fix at least the screen I could consider getting a Gemini, even if the ARM cpu means I would need wine+Qemu to run some windows applications.

<comment><AUTHOR> The GPD Pocket is, indeed, very nice. However, it's much larger and heavier than the Gemini.

The Gemini has two obvious advantages over the GPD Pocket. One is LTE; the other is its small size. Size restrictions were imposed on electronic devices permitted in the cabin on flights between certain middle eastern airports and the USA early in 2017 due to a specific terrorist threat.

While those size restrictions were not extended to cover EU/USA flights, and appear to be being relaxed, if they're revived we can expect a ban on flying with anything significantly bigger than a 5.5" phablet in the cabin.

The Gemini slips under the size bar; the GPD Pocket doesn't.

<comment><USER14> These are valid objections, but premature optimization is the root of all evil.

If these restrictions are extended, I do expect a GPD Pocket2 designed with these restrictions in mind, to fly just under the radar.

At the moment, the GPD Win2 is being designed, with a M2 SSD slot as many people complained about storage.

It is reasonable to expect a GPD Pocket2 after that. As many users are complaining about the lack of WWAN, I do expect it will come with LTE (and an outside screen to display the calling number) or at least a slot to add it in the M2 slot.

<comment><USER15> I spent a lot of time with the Pocket; I think the Linux niche (Gemini has that too) is a good one as there are plenty small devices with Windows 10 already, like the Mipad (very nice by the way and a lot cheaper, however you need to get an external keyboard) but not so many Linux ones. After getting used to the weird keyboard (few days) I find I love the screen, battery life, pointer nob and build quality. What could be improved; a bit smaller, wwan and keyboard backlighting. And possibly the keyboard itself. Then it would be perfect.

<comment><USER14> As a big thinkpad fan, I must say the Pocket trackpoint had a lot of influence in my purchase decision :-)

Basically, I just want a device that I can use like my thinkpad (open it, and use command line tools or x86 software though wine). The GPD pocket is the first device that got me this "thinkpad" impression. Also, I do not want a bluetooth keyboard. I do not want to fiddle with batteries/paring/any other software issue.

The keyboard is my #1 concern. I tried an apple bluetooth keyboard with an ipad for a while -- I think that is the highest available quality/ease of use, but even that setup was not satisfying.

Besides storage issues (no removable storage!), the wwan and keyboard backlighting other bother me.

I will certainly buy a GPD Pocket2 when they come out, and a Gemini if they fix the screen. I am still looking for the right device.

<comment><USER15> > As a big thinkpad fan

I have a stack of X220's with big batteries , which are still my favorites, but for travel it's not very good. If they break, they can be replaced for $50-80 which is excellent, but they are just too bulky. But that, indeed, made me a huge trackpoint fan. So much more comfortable than a trackpad imho.

> ipad

No 'unrestricted' OS is an issue when programming; I tried a lot of ways to do coding on Android/iOS but it's just not very nice. Linux is more obvious for me personally.

> I am still looking for the right device.

Yep. But at least choice is reaching us fast; it is possible to build the perfect machine for a few $100k in small runs; that used to be hard. When the OpenPandora came out, that was still a huge issue. Now it's actually possible. So i'm thinking more people will push for perfection. In my world, battery life is by far the most important; I don't care so much about cpu/gpu power (if I need that, I login on a server for cpu/gpu or memory work and I don't like 3d games; I like 2d games), but an empty battery is really annoying. As I travel a lot, I find myself with fine internet but scarce power and I need 10+ hours to work. With the OpenPandora (too low resolution/not very good screen and very annoying keyboard but removable batteries and good software community / hackers) or Pocket I am happy.

My dream setup would be:

\- l x w size of the Gemini \- h size more of the pandora (you need to give in somewhere for below features) \- Linux (it's an expensive and full featured machine; it needs a full OS imho, or at least the option for one) \- swivel (2-in-1) of the zaurus (that would be a dream but probably very hard to do); the zaurus was lightyears ahead of what they have now in that space imho; you had a little tablet but no keyboard in the way like those 2-in-1/flips usually have now \- sd card slots of the pyra/pandora \- ports of the pyra \- storage of the Pocket (looking at the space inside the pandora _now_ and the internals of, say, an Samsung ssd, it would be possible to fit swappable inards of an ssd drive, so that would make it even more perfect) \- 4g/wwan of the gemini/pyra \- usbc of the pocket (not sure about the pyra but the charger for the pandora is annoying; you can them charge with usb but that's very slow) \- keyboard of the gemini/psion \- screen resolution / quality of the Pocket (for me touch screen is not needed ; that would only be handy if 2-in-1) \- trackpad of the pocket \- hotswap batteries (aka little battery to allow for 3 minute swap window) of the x230+ \- backlighting of the macbook

The thing i'm not sure about is casing; aluminium (Pocket) isn't very sturdy and plastic (Pandora/x220) cracks fast; I think I like the Pandora way better though; it's easy to replace the casing and it's less bothersome if it cracks. It looks far worse though. What would be a more rugged option?

The price could be higher as this is a niche device; only weirdos like me would buy it anyway but there are enough of us to make a few runs as prices fall for making this kind of thing.

<comment><USER14> We share many opinions! I need Windows or Linux. I can't do with restricted OS like android or iOS.

I also have a stack of thinkpads. When I need to travel, I grab one. At that price, I am not concerned about forgetting it in the plane, or a thief. And thinkpads do swivel!

I agree with your analysis of small computers ; besides all the things you list, I would love to see an eink display. In fact, a swivel with 2 screens would be ideal: one eink, one lcd.

A small run can now be done for cheap, and there is demand. Hopefully, someone will want to make a nice profit and deliver what we want.

<comment><USER15> Yep; i was thinking that on a flight yesterday; if only this Pocket had an eInk on the lid.... Kindle paperwhite fits nicely on there... And a physical (w)wan switch, also for the airplane.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> According to their IndieGoGo page, the Gemini is still in prototype stage - <USER3> hasn't yet entered production. Is it possible they can go to manufacture and ship devices in December?

[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android- linux-...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux- keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/)

I've been considering ordering one - I loved the Psion, although I am not sure they will deliver on-time as promised.

Has anyone been following the campaign as a backer? What's the general feeling?

<comment><USER17> I backed it and we've gotten regularly updates. I believe they are in production now, or very close to it. Of course they are late, but so are practically all crowd-sourced ventures. They have demoed prototypes on multiple occasion (I haven't see it) so AFACT, it's for real.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I loved my Psion. I could actually use it to write documents or spreadsheets on a plane without problems. The battery also lasted really long.

I guess the success of this may be defined by the quality of the keyboard. The Psion's was just phenomenal.

<comment><USER19> Exactly this, sort of a super calculator and simple note taker. Not a fan of the price though at $600. I would have rather they had done a PS5 clone with a 200Mhz 32bit Cortex M CPU from ST micro and have the whole thing cost less than $100.

<comment><AUTHOR> I paid $369 for a wifi/LTE early bird special on the Indiegogo campaign site. It's still available for $400 plus shipping; I don't know where you're seeing $600, but that sounds like a scalper price from a retailer claiming early availability.

<comment><USER20> the price is in the article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I am looking forward to this device because I really love the form factor. I do think ti will fail however, the reason being why most of these kind of devices fail today: lack of focus on software.

Just slapping some form of android on you device doesn't make it great. Even if you do everything right, you are still just as good as all other major players in the market. But of course, most companies can't even ship android updates and start with old versions to begin with, so there is that. And android apps often are not really optimized for every other form factor that a phone in portrait mode.

So, then there are the ones with linux, like this one. Which is cool, because you can run whatever you want. But also, linux is mostly an afterthought for the device maker and even if it isn't, software is seldom adopted beyond installing a lightweight desktop and switching out some icons. and even if it were, linux really is not build for mobile usage today, so the UI will very likely still be really bad.

I think unlike there is much more focus on adopting software to these form factors, using these kind of devices will always be sub-par. And that's a real shame, because I feel they have such as much potential as pure smartphones. A portable computer that can really do some work and be nice to use for more than watching video is a problem no one seems to really have cracked yet.

</comment><comment><USER22> This looks super cool, but I'm not sure I'd use it.

When the Series 5 was launched, there weren't a lot of good options for text input on mobile devices. The keyboard made a huge difference, because your alternatives were a full-size laptop, Graffiti on a Palm device or the awful resistive touchscreen on a WinCE device. The Psion 5 was the most useful productivity device that could fit in a coat pocket.

Today, touchscreen keyboards work well enough that a Psion 5-sized keyboard isn't a vast improvement. For less than $30, you can buy a folding Bluetooth keyboard that is barely bigger than a phone when folded, but gives an almost full-sized keyboard when unfolded. The Gemini's fixed keyboard makes it impractical to use as a phone, but isn't as good as a folding bluetooth keyboard. Loath as I am to admit it, I think it's simply an obsolete form factor.

If the keyboard snapped on magnetically, I might have given it serious consideration. As it is, I just don't see where such a device would fit into my workflow.

[https://www.amazon.com/iClever-Portable-Keyboard- Bluetooth-W...](https://www.amazon.com/iClever-Portable-Keyboard-Bluetooth- Wireless/dp/B00YWLJNPQ/)

<comment><USER23> > Today, touchscreen keyboards work well enough

They barely work at all, it's only autocorrection that makes them tolerable. And if there's any moisture on the screen then the input will be erratic and useless.

<comment><USER22> Autocorrect is part of the input method. It's damned near impossible to input Chinese characters into a computer without some sort of predictive system. T9 was an integral part of text input on phones with a numeric keypad.

I've just checked and I can comfortably type on a phone at over 25wpm. That isn't blazing fast, but it's within one standard deviation of the average typist on a full-size qwerty keyboard.

It's not great, but I'd certainly call it good enough. The gap just isn't very big between typing speeds on a touchscreen or a small physical keyboard. I think the market bears that out - physical keyboards have all but disappeared from mobile devices, because they just don't add enough value for most users to justify the added bulk or the reduction in screen size.

Incidentally, wet finger tracking has improved massively over the last couple of years. My current phone works pretty much impeccably even if it's soaking wet.

[https://imlocation.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/how-fast-do- peop...](https://imlocation.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/how-fast-do-people-type/)

<comment><USER7> I can barely manage 20wpm on my phone, and that's on a good day; the next- keystroke prediction and autocorrect both fail so often that I spend as much or more time correcting text as I do entering it. Meanwhile, I easily hit 120wpm when typing on a real keyboard.

Typing on a phone feels like having both thumbs tied together behind my back, with one finger broken. One reason why I'm so excited by the Gemini PDA is that it might _not_ feel that way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It's never a Psion without that sweet spring-loaded hinge design they developed to contain the double A batteries on most of their PDAs, variations of which were used on the great 3 and 5 series.

It was oddly satisfying just playing with the mechanism, easily one of the most over-engineered parts I've seen on a clamshell style computer.

<comment><USER25> It was awesome. I've worn out a Revo playing with that. But the most over engineered hinge design IMHO have to be the IBM butterfly keyboard on the Thinkpad 701.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm really looking forward to the release of this. Im hoping to replace my phone with it, a device that dual boots Linux and Android and has a physical keyboard is like my dream phone.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, my phone died recently and I'm really considering replacing it with this. I can hold out on an old spare iPhone until then, I think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I had the Psion Revo+, I used to code and compile Java 1.1 programs on it.

Everything had to be cointained in 16Mb RAM, the Revo+ didn't have a flash card reader

I even managed to include Swing and HSQLDB

</comment><comment><USER29> This machine falls into the same category as the TRS-80 Model 100 for me. An amazing battery life machine that I get my thoughts down with a minimum of fuss. The Psion 5 was a nice machine, but I would wish for a horizontal enter key as opposed to the vertical. I really wish a few more groups would take a look at this form factor because it is amazing.

On a side note, was there not a machine in this type of form factor from back in the day that had APL for a programming language?

<comment><USER30> Are you thinking of OPL?

OPL -- Organizer Programming Language -- was the default Psion high-level language bundled with all their EPOC machines. It's a block-structured BASIC- like language.

<comment><USER29> No, I was thinking APL. I gotta look, it might have been one of the ones jecel showed in his comment, but I swear it was smaller.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> On further review, a concern: instead of a meta key next to 'q' which can be conveniently remapped to Control, this keyboard has Tab.

In the abstract, it seems reasonable to suspect that that can be mapped in a somewhat complex fashion, such that when pressed and released alone it issues 0x09, while when pressed and held in combination with other keys it sets the Control meta bit. I'm certain Emacs can do this. Can it be done in a Linux DE more generally? It seems like that should be possible, but I'm having a hard time finding examples of similar things being done.

ETA: Or I _was_ ; at-home-modifier [1] looks like it'll fit the bill. Crud. There goes what might've been my last reason not to buy one of these things...

[1] [https://gitlab.com/at-home-modifier/at-home-modifier- evdev/w...](https://gitlab.com/at-home-modifier/at-home-modifier- evdev/wikis/home)

</comment><comment><USER31> As much as I am a sucker for such gadgets (owner of Psion 5 in the past; those memories of playing Infocom games on a Psion are difficult to forget), I don't see a point apart from a bunch of enthusiasts...

It lacks the pocket factor of a smartphone, usability of a full-sized keyboard and a screen size to support practical apps beyond basic browsing etc. Couple this with a prohibitive price point (which can buy you a high-end smartphone, a very solid Chromebook, or a "generally practical" laptop)... I just cannot find a solid use case for this kind of device...

</comment><comment><USER32> I would consider this, although seems to me that instead of reinventing the phone part, they could've devised a Psion-like keyboard attachment to an existing premium phone.

</comment><comment><USER33> I've been trying to decide between the PS5 and the Purism phone, and my main problem with the PS5 is that Linux is only a dual boot option. If I see lineageos or another Foss android working (replicant?) On it I would greatly prefer the real keyboard of the PS5.

</comment><comment><USER34> If NetBSD gets ported to it, I would seriously consider getting one.

</comment><comment><USER35> Sadly, their crowdfunding campaign was spoiled by the fact that they were launching almost simultaneously with GPD Win, Onda, Chuwi, and Chiron Sigma

<comment><USER15> You mean GPD Pocket instead of Win? It runs Linux very well. With i3, i get consistent 23 hours battery life while coding from it while on it the road.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Should I Limit Users to 140 chars? - <AUTHOR>

When building a new communication platform, should I limit users to only 140 chars. Twitter has shown that sharing bite sized information limited to 140 chars is a viable way to communicate. However, when looking toward the future, is this a good thing or bad thing for users? Should I limit them, or should I let them be open ended or some other desired amount?<p>I understand that these can be circumstantial, but what are these circumstances and how do I apply them? <comment><USER2> Unless your communication platform is designed to send SMS messages and/or tweets, I'd say a _slightly_ more generous limitation would be better.

It is possible for communications to have the virtue of brevity without the need for URL shorteners and abbreviations everywhere.

</comment><comment><USER3> I agree with respect to mobile device users and they would understand given limitations of text messaging and how they have become familiar with messaging with few characters. PC users will want to explain in more detail and this should be accommodated. That said I suggest not leave it open ended, but some limit so they net their feedback.

</comment><comment><USER4> Completely depends on what kind of "communication" you're trying to promote. Twitter wanted people to send short, timely messages so they limited message length. How do you want people to use your service? Put constraints on your product to encourage that particular behavior.

<comment><AUTHOR> I am trying to influence intimate sharing behavior between exclusive groups, but I want them to be bite sized to be digest simply, promoting usage.

<comment><USER4> Assuming that they should be bite sized is a mistake, because the best "intimate sharing between exclusive groups" message might actually be long and detailed. Go look at how exclusive groups communicate now, and model your design to promote those qualities that you find. The problem is you're saying "I want them to be bite sized" not "exclusive groups tend to send bite sized communications."

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point, I will do some further investigation :) I am trying to create a more exclusive groups product, but I want to keep information sharing to quick bite sized chunks. I guess that might not be a solution though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I would do the following: for mobile users Yes, for PC's no. And here is why because when they send more then 140 chars on mobile it becomes 2 messages or more (more carrier fees).

<comment><AUTHOR> On mobile you are refereeing to text messages, correct?

<comment><USER5> Yes indeed</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Where do you keep your startup ideas? - <AUTHOR>

Ideally, it would do a little more than just Evernote notebook. I am using Trello at the moment, as I can order them etc. Is there a better way? Maybe even a social way? <comment><USER2> In Bitbucket, with each as its own project.

Gathering "startup ideas" seems to me like a sure-fire recipe to never begin any of them. Write code, even if it's a POC, then that becomes an item on your list.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's interesting! Of course, a lot of ideas are not fit for writing code straight away...</comment></comment>


Anyone here planning to come to TechCrunch Tel Aviv? - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/events/techcrunch-tel-aviv/ <comment><AUTHOR> For years I am willing to setup up HN TLV Meetup. What do you think?

<comment><USER2> There were several HN meetups in Tel-Aviv about 6-7 years ago. Today you have so many meetups, that meta-meetups for HN or Quora users no longer make sense.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Exciting hobbyist communities nowadays? - <AUTHOR>

Is it even possible these days to enter a hobbyist community and be working with things that will change the world in a few decades? Much like creators of the first Mac meeting at their local computer club (with Wozniak showing his designs to people)?
What would be some exciting hobbyist communities that are working on cutting edge stuff that we might take for granted in a few decades? Hackerspaces seem the logical choice but sometimes it's more of the same everywhere. Are there spaces working in exciting new things?
Can you share information about communities where the level of excitement could be compared to that of working in a garage in the 80's? I'm interested in anything minimally related to technology. Is biotech where the fun is these days? Can the average Joe dream of creating something life changing in his garage?
I know these are all very broad questions. No precise answer needed (and this is my first time asking anything on HN, sorry for mistakes). <comment><USER2> Consumer level 3D printing fits the description. The type of plastic fused deposition modeling machines (Makerbot, etc) that are common now all largely hail back to 2-3 open source designs, which they then tweaked and improved on. Hobbyists are still pushing a lot of the game forward with better software and interfaces, as well as ideas for improvements like heated build beds, etc. Knowledge is often shared on web forums and blogs.</comment>


ActiveRecord and Large Datasets - <AUTHOR> http://codeclimber.blogspot.com/2008/12/activerecord-and-large-datasets.html <comment><USER2> DB Cursors?</comment>


Top Tech Events in Austin TX, October 2010  - <AUTHOR> http://austintechgeeks.com/2010/09/26/top-tech-events-in-austin-october-2010/

<comment><USER2> There is also the Austin Javascript meetup that @getify puts together. Anybody else planning on going?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Cool, I am following him now on Twitter.</comment>


LibreSSL – An OpenSSL replacement - <AUTHOR> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/

<comment><USER2> Transcript in the other front page submission: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7760615](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7760615)

</comment><comment><USER3> Audience recording of the talk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnBbhXBDmwU)

</comment><comment> dj-wonk Since no one has said it yet -- (maybe it is too obvious?) -- thanks to anyone who takes the time to improve old crufty code that most of us rely on. (Yes, even if you weaponize Comic Sans.)

</comment><comment> dj-wonk Is there a US-based not-for-profit that sends money to LibreSSL? (Yes, this is a little round-about, but a tax benefit is nice.)

</comment><comment><USER4> Shouldn't it say LibreSSL - An OpenSSL fork :)? Seems cool that we kinda have a choice, and do not need to depend on one OpenSource project to have SSL, on other hand it seems it will be another underfunded project, waiting for another heartbleed to happen. :)

<comment><USER5> They're aiming at binary compatibility, as such it is a replacement (but also a fork). Similar to MariaDB v.s. MySQL.

Fork and replacement are not mutually exclusive. In fact I'd think that often forks start with the intention to provide a replacement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> OK, I don't get WTF is so funny with Comic Sans?

<comment><USER7> When Comic Sans was first introduced, it got overused and quickly became an eyesore that nevertheless, still got overused, despite the bitching about it.

Now we just kind of bitch about it because we've always bitched about it. Someday, your grandchildren might bitch about it, too, but they probably won't _really_ care.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm curious as to their funding goal. Sounds like a couple salaries for a year or two. It almost seems appropriate to test the waters here with a KickStarter. OpenSSL is pervasive in technology, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were able to achieve even somewhat lofty donations from a combination of both individuals and private organizations.

<comment><USER9> +1. It would be great if they would set up some a kickstarter or another mainstream mechanism for people to contribute (?dogecoin?).

<comment><USER10> Dogecoin is mainstream now?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Sounds like they are doing excellent work here but it is a pity the license can never be GPL compatible.

<comment><USER12>
        > but it is a pity the license can never be GPL compatible

Why? What are the practical downsides?

<comment><USER13> Yes, OpenSSL has an advertising clause that is incompatible with the GPL.

[https://people.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the- gpl.html](https://people.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the-gpl.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> What does KNF refer to in slide 19 ( [http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00019.htm...](http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan14-libressl/mgp00019.html) ) ?

<comment><USER15> Kernel Normal Form, documented by the `style(9)` man page on BSD systems. Details vary between the BSDs.

In the case of LibreSSL, it means: [http://www.openbsd.org/cgi- bin/man.cgi?query=style&section=9](http://www.openbsd.org/cgi- bin/man.cgi?query=style&section=9)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This presentation is tasteless and totally takes any seriousness that should be related to making and promoting an OpenSSL replacement. I personally can't take it seriously and I would recommend hackers to think about what image their presentation and design conveys.

<comment><USER17> When it comes to security tools, one uses a different approach to selecting your tools. At least, you do if you want to be secure. The best presentation and the prettiest website are _nowhere_ in the selection criteria. You look at the history of the people involved, primarily. What have they done in the past? Was it believed to be secure by other researchers? Is it secure today because they have actively maintained it? Have they used good practices that allow their code to easily be audited by others? Have they welcomed feedback from other competent developers?

Using Comic Sans and bitching about the quality of another project is irrelevant in this scenario. OpenBSD project brings with it an almost two- decade history of seriousness about security that I think one would be a fool to ignore.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> The software used to create this is MagicPoint. The link in the slides is wrong, currently the website is [http://member.wide.ad.jp/wg/mgp/](http://member.wide.ad.jp/wg/mgp/)

<comment><USER2> It's a shame there's not even a tiny bit of JS in the pages. Being able to press right or down to advance would be nice. Though I like how lightweight it all this.

I suspect the software is old and the link hasn't been updated in its source.

<comment> TD-Linux Not only that, but the slides are JPG with horrible artifacts, and the text is JPG too, making it look bad and not be compatible with screen readers.

<comment><USER18> The software is meant to generate content for an X11 viewer/presentation app using a simple text-based markup as input.

The HTML is an export. It's not what the software was really designed to produce. That said, I don't know if the quality of the slides is really any better in the native viewer.

<comment><USER19> That's not really an excuse for using jpg instead of png for a bunch of text.

<comment><USER20> How about this: the program supports images and backgrounds. Therefore using JPG makes sense.

<comment><USER17> Text is its primary output. JPG is never the right choice for text.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why has R, despite quirks, been so successful? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.revolutionanalytics.com/2015/06/why-has-r-been-so-successful.html

<comment><USER2> I think the real reason is that no matter what crazy machine learning idea you want to implement, you basically just import the data and pass it to a function. Bam. You just trained a convolutional neural net. Calculate the hamming distance? Sure. No idea what that is, but I'll throw it into a random forest with a couple other idea when I'm done, then plot the most important variables. You never really have to learn a new API, which I'm always doing in Python. I don't want to learn a whole new framework: I heard of a thing and I want to see what it does with my data. Python never lets things be as simple as:

        from machinelearning import svm
        with open('/home/me/programming/data.csv') as f:
            data = f.read()

        print(svm(data))

That's why R, which is an awful, buggy, and weird language, is so pleasant to use for stats and ML.

<comment><USER3> Not to poke holes in this but is this actually that hard ?

        import pandas as pd
        from sklearn.linear import SVC

        df = pd.read_csv('/home/me/programming/data.csv')
        y = df['label']
        X = df.drop('label', axis=1)

        clf = SVC()
        clf.fit(X, y)

... Most of the things have a similar API, except for when I veer off into say deep-learning land.

This is not to say that R is a bad language, or that R does not have equally nice API's for this stuff; but I feel that in your case its a familiarity of language thing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I think the key is that R (and S before it) were designed from the start to provide a continuous path from being a user to being a programmer. Unlike real programming languages, you can get a lot of value out of R without really coding. Its a great statistical calculator and has good graphics. Then you can move relatively easily into scripting a few repetitive tasks, and then on into writing simple programs.

One consequence of that is that R has a lot of 'non-programmer programmers', statisticians and domain experts. Some of them write libraries that encode their domain knowledge. Then over time that adds up to having library support for more different types of analysis than any other language. I personally dislike R as a language, but I often end up using it because it has a library for some task that just doesn't exist in Python.

</comment><comment><USER5> Just being an open source and free platform for performing statistical tests was probably enough to make R extremely successful when it first launched. At the time Python didn't have any widely used and extensible statistical libraries, and matlab/SASS cost a great deal of money and are difficult to deploy. R's growth since then is probably due to the fantastic packaging system.

</comment><comment><USER6> Money Changed Hands.</comment>


US Cyber Command starts uploading foreign APT malware to VirusTotal - <AUTHOR> https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/article/us-cyber-command-starts-uploading-foreign-apt-malware-to-virustotal <comment><USER2> Doesn't it seem like that kind of advanced cyberweaponry would be closely guarded? Color me a bit skeptical.

</comment><comment><USER3> Just a nitpick: you forgot to remove the final '?__twitter_impression=true' from the URL :)</comment>


Police broke into Chelsea Manning's home with guns drawn in a "Wellness Check" - <AUTHOR> https://theintercept.com/2018/06/05/chelsea-manning-video-twitter-police-mental-health/ <comment><USER2> > "The problem, mental health experts say, is that police should not be the > ones to check on suicidal people in the first place."

This is a very uninformed statement. For 911 and/or police calls, there is an extensively well-established (to put it mildly) precedent that the safety of an area must be secured by police before medical personnel are even allowed on scene. There are very good reasons for this-- you don't want to have your primary emergency medical responders taken out by a delusional shooter when other emergencies _will_ be coming up soon that require them, all too often for matters of life & death.

> " 'The moral of this story is don't call the cops,' Cassandra said. "If you > know someone who is having a mental health crisis, call a friend, a trusted > neighbor, or someone close by who can safely intervene. Keep the number to a > volunteer emergency medical service in your city or neighborhood that can be > called directly"

This I agree with. For people familiar with the situation and person/people involved (if they exist), a much more appropriate response can be conducted. There are numerous accounts of these situations leading to the arrest of the individual in crisis, which of course can make things much, much worse for them. I know someone it happened to.

<comment><USER3> _> This is a very uninformed statement. For 911 and/or police calls, there is an extensively well-established (to put it mildly) precedent that the safety of an area must be secured by police before medical personnel are even allowed on scene._

Here in the UK, the police would not routinely attend an ambulance call-out for someone experiencing suicidal thoughts unless there was specific intelligence to suggest that the patient might present a credible threat to an ambulance crew. Most British police officers are not permitted to carry firearms; armed officers would only be deployed to a mental health crisis if there was specific intelligence to suggest that the patient was armed and posed an immediate threat to life. All armed officers have specialist training, including crisis management and conflict de-escalation.

In 2017, six people were fatally shot by police in England and Wales. Since 1990, the average number of fatal police shootings was 2.46 per year.

Another way is possible.

[https://www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-police- custody](https://www.inquest.org.uk/deaths-in-police-custody)

<comment><USER4> In Australia a large amount of police work is conducting welfare checks - suicide threats, people not showing up for work for a few days, distant family concerned about an elderly relative, health support workers who are concerned their mentally ill patient hasn't taken their medication, people who show erratic behaviour at a bank or government welfare office after talking to staff.

Especially in country areas where they are limited Ambulance/Paramedic resources, police are more often than not the ones conducting checks and will be first responders.

If paramedics are concerned about safety on a particular job (weapons mentioned on call, previous history of violence), they will wait for police to make the area safe before attending to a patient.

If paramedics are unable to gain entry to a property, police are required to be the ones to force entry.

Also if paramedics require to take someone involuntarily to hospital for mental health evaluation they require police presence to "arrest" someone under the Mental Health Act to allow them to be taken against their will due to health concerns.

Due to large amounts of mental health work with police, on most shifts police will have a specialised unit (car) on duty in each area which has a combination of a police officer and specialist mental health worker / psychologist. They focus on any jobs relating to mentally ill and can conduct assessments without having to wait for an ambulance to be available.

There are a lot more police on shift than ambulances, and ambulances are often tied up for hours at hospitals doing transfers of patients, so police can and should be the ones dealing with welfare of the general public. They have a very close relationship with health workers.

Police will NEVER undertake a welfare check with guns drawn, even if forcing entry to a property. When arresting someone under the Mental Health Act police will not draw their guns. Guns are a last resort only.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > In 2017, mental illness played a role in a quarter of 987 police killings,

Can we say that police officers kill more people than terrorists do?

<comment><USER6> I would be surprised if terrorists killed more people. That isn't to say that terrorism should be taken lightly because they could get "lucky" and kill lots of people. While a scary issue, due to the proximity of the US (minus local terrorists like the alt-right groups) we are largely shielded from it. Hell drunk drivers kill passengers and those in other vehicles every year far more than terrorism has minus in 2001.

I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop".

<comment><USER7> > I wonder how many police officer killings are due to "suicide by cop".

That wouldn't even be a thing if they weren't so trigger happy and unaccountable. How did it ever even get to be a thing?

<comment><USER8> Okay, I'm all for trying to reduce how often police preemptively escalate by entering homes with guns drawn, but cops shouldn't be blamed for trying to save their own lives.

Suicide by cop often involves drawing a gun on said cop. You don't need to be trigger happy or unaccountable to shoot someone who's pretending to try to shoot you.

<comment><USER9> Cops seem to be really good at saving their own lives at the expense of civilians.

In the rest of the developed world police seem to be pretty good at it without slaying unarmed people left and right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Reading the comments from Australia, is it fair to say things are this way due to no gun control?

Every comment seems to miss what seems obvious to me.

Since the chance of armed encounters is high the Police have to respond this way to every scenario or risk getting shot.

<comment><USER11> > is it fair to say things are this way due to no gun control?

I don't think so. Maryland isn't the most restrictive state when it comes to firearm policy[1], but it's a long distance from "no gun control." I'm also not certain that the chance of armed encounters is terribly high in Bethesda, though I'm uncertain if those crime statistics are recorded or what terms I should use to search for them. To give a comparison, the homicide rate per capita (which I suspect would correlate to some extent with police interaction with armed individuals) in Montgomery County (where Bethesda is) was 1.4/100,000 in 2016 [2]. For Australia at large, the rate is 1.0/100,000 [3], so pretty comparable. These police officers don't seem to operate in an area that is notably more dangerous/violent than Australia.

I do, however, think the issue is cultural. Many police officers in the US seem to perceive that they are in danger 24/7, and this effects how they interact with people on a daily basis. There is a preference for an overwhelming show of force even when it's absolutely uncalled for. This probably contributes to a feedback loop that causes the general population and the police to trust each other less and be more confrontational. And I don't seem to be alone in identifying this as a problem; if you search for problems with police culture in the US, you will find a large body of criticism for the default behavior of police officers.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Maryland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Maryland)

[2] [https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/POL/Resources/Files/MCPD%...](https://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/POL/Resources/Files/MCPD%202016%20Annual%20Report\(1\).pdf) (Page 4)

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia#Murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Australia#Murder)

<comment><USER12> Yes, I think you're right that the police attitude (and the way that makes the public respond) is a big part of the problem.

This discussion always makes me think of Robert Peel's principles of "policing by consent", amazingly forward-looking given that they were drawn up in the early 19th century: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles)

The UK doesn't follow these principles perfectly (for example, there are still tensions between the police and racial minorities) but they're mostly in the right ballpark. It seems from news reports that most US police forces don't even try -- the police see themselves more as being in conflict with the community.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> > "It's not necessary for police to be the first responders when somebody > calls 911 and says they're suicidal..."

When your country is missing any sort of universal state "help" for your health, then what other option is there?

<comment><USER14> Apart from sending state officials to help the suicidal people to once and for all accomplish their spontaneous wish created by a brain malfunction? Maybe check how other countries do this, where less people get shot by police for whatever reason (in which I don't take sides, the cops are only the last elements in a much longer chain and have to deal with everything that went wrong long before as the "solution of last resort - by force").

I also find it fascinating that responses seen in other comments sound completely reasonable (and are reasonable, given the chosen perspective) when they justify that what happened is exactly what had to happen (cops may be called to dangerous places, and it's a fact that that happens to them all the time). Yet, when looking at it from a different, much farther away perspective from a country where I would expect such police behavior only in very few extreme cases (and only carried out by special police forces, of which there are not many), it does not seem reasonable at all. Again, I understand the cops, I might act just like them if I had to live their life. So something other than police tactics may be a causal reason, because if cops actually are in danger routinely than their measures make sense.

<comment><USER12> Like so many other situations, I think this can be cast as a Prisoner's Dilemma. :)

All else being equal, whether or not other people have guns, you'll be safer if you have a gun. But that apparently rational argument leads to everybody having guns, which is much less safe for everybody.

But there's an extra twist -- you are actually _not_ safer with a gun all else being equal, because you or your loved ones could be killed by _that gun_ through accident, suicide, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The police are trained to go in first and clear the situation. The problem isn't that you should be afraid to call the police for suicide concerns, it's what happens next.

Our system has completely failed the the suicidal, mentally ill, etc. You have almost no legitimate options for help. I recently heard of a story of someone who was put in jail when they threatened their own life. It's not the police's fault though, they have no options to them.

<comment><USER7> > The problem isn't that you should be afraid to call the police for suicide > concerns

Right. The problem, for a disturbingly large section of the community, is that they are afraid to call the cops for _anything_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> So she got swatted. Let's call it what it is. She got swatted because some assholes decided to call the cops on her. Those assholes' intentions are irrelevant. If you call the cops on someone in America, you should expect the police to show up with guns and possibly shoot that person. That's what they do; that's mostly all they do. As a society, we've decided that the police should show up in many situations where they are not needed, like medical emergencies, and have also decided to give them the right to murder with impunity and without consequences (see qualified immunity). This is what happens when you give a bunch of bullies who barely graduated high school guns and power: complete abuse of that power leading to hundreds or thousands of unnecessary deaths a year; not to mention all the non-lethal violence they also cause being essentially the largest gang in the nation.

Americans need to learn that the police are not their friends and teach their children that. Police will not save you when there is a real threat. Police will stand back, hidden, away from danger just like they did in so many school shootings. They do not give a fuck about you, your kids, or your safety. They do not give a fuck about your life or anyone's life other than theirs (something they constantly talk about on every single cop show ever, in case you doubt this claim). I truly cannot think of a single positive thing police do in our society or any reason to call them, ever. Not one.

</comment><comment><USER17> Guns drawn in case they arrive to find an unstable person armed with a gun threatening to shoot back.

This isn't indicative of a police state, it's indicative of a state where guns are too readily available to people with mental health issues.

</comment><comment><USER18> I see no problem here. She did make posts that appeared to be threatening suicide. Police are typically the first ones who can get to the scene. Their job is to save lives, and this was a legitimate exercise of that job. People are trying to make this political, about gun control, or some conspiracy, and I think that's wrong.

</comment><comment><USER19> This sounds like it was an assassination attempt. I'd move out of the country.

<comment><USER20> Interesting concept. Murder by cop. Get someone killed by sending the police to their place. Might actually be possible in the current way police deal with these kinds of situations...

<comment><USER21> It's not a "concept" for many years now. And not "might be possible". It's known as swatting and people have been killed already: [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting)</comment></comment></comment>