Everything Is Getting Louder - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/the-end-of-silence/598366/ <comment><USER2> For me the trigger is TVs. I've been renting a flat in a poorer area for over a year now. The walls are a lot thinner than in other places. There are a lot of people today (mostly 50+ year-olds) who cannot fall to sleep without the TV on. My neighbor is one of them. And the thing with TVs is that the most irritating sound frequency they emit is the one that is barely audible when you're in the same room, but when you are in the next room and trying to sleep it is the main frequency that you hear.

Another problem is that with a cheaper flat came generally noisier neighbors, i.e. frequently throwing out late-night parties, denying anyone around the luxury of sleep.

Then there are dogs whose owners don't seem to realize that dogs need to be walked and otherwise they will bark without end. This happens most often in the mornings and can go on for 2 hours easily and sets the tone for the day just right... It seems dog owners develop a special indifference to noise and their dogs.

All of that made me miserable. There were actually moments when this situation triggered suicidal thoughts.

I don't have a problem with cars passing by on the nearby high-speed road. If anything, the sound they make (very different from the sound of cars in traffic) is calming during the night.

I've recently got a new job which pays a lot better than the previous one, so in a couple of months I plan to move to a quieter neighborhood.

<comment><USER3> I sold my previous house precisely because of noisy neighbors (or rather their dogs). Their three dogs lived in the backyard permanently no matter what the weather - never seen them walked. Talked to the neighbors twice about the noise - no action. Called the cops at 3 in the morning - still nothing. Finally, I decided to sell the house and move somewhere where there is low dog density. I developed a dislike for dogs because of my previous neighbors. Even now, three years later, a barking dog drives me nuts, gets my heart going fast and blood boiling.

<comment><USER4> I live with an endless barking dog. It isn't mine, but it wakes me constantly.

If there has been peace for a while and it barks, I can feel my entire body change "mode" to stressed. It is uncanny. Even if mentally it hasn't bothered me, my body still goes into battle mode.

<comment><USER5> I have the same reaction (physical) to a screaming kid. It has made raising my baby incredibly difficult (especially the first year). Mentally, I understand that it's just a crying baby and that's what they do, but physically I was shutting down - body tensing, a surge of extremely stressful energy rushing through my body and ultimately being left unable to function. My wife thought I was nuts and was just faking it. I tried searching for a medical explanation but came up short. The closest I would describe it as something I hear chronic fatigue people say -- not having energy to get up, no matter their mental state. I would sit there, practically paralyzed by stress, or whatever that stress induced.

<comment><USER6> I don't know about the paralysis but I once read an internet fact that stated our brains are innately wired to react to babies and children's screams in order to ward off potential threats to our retirement plans.

<comment><USER7> I believe it. I work in an environment that many people would consider stress inducing; I engage in amateur combat sports; however, when my six month old loses it, I absolutely get an immediate pulse raising stress reaction.

<comment><USER8> I've read articles that say that when they stress-test fighter pilots by having them do cognitive test while wearing headphones with different sounds, they usually mix in infants crying. It's one of the most distracting things for a person to hear.

For me, it wasn't when the kids started crying that was the most stressful, but when they wouldn't stop. You check their diapers, you check if they're hungry, you rock them gently, and even then sometimes they just wouldn't stop crying. After a while the noise would be so bad that I had to hand them off to my wife, and she did the same when she became too frustrated.

Funnily enough, it made me immune to other kids crying. Before I had kids I would get very irritated at noisy kids or crying infants in the subway. Now, I'm just happy it's not my kids and that it's someone else's problem!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I found this article's style infuriatingly slow. If it had been a quarter or a third of the length I think it would have been much stronger. It took quite a while to figure out what the hell was going on. And then you get to things like this halfway through:

> Thallikar took his campaign to his homeowners' association and to his > neighbors. The response was tepid, though he did persuade one person to > email the city.

Which makes it seem like it's just the personal bugaboo of one person rather than a serious problem, and having read far too many words already I just want to give up.

Where were the editors for this piece?

<comment><USER10> Agreed, needed editing though I fully sympathize with the people in the author's story. The drug shithole I used to live in after prison was crackheads screaming for hours after blowing up pipes in their face when a rain drop hits it after they heat it up, crackheads getting robbed and fighting all night, shootings, constant ambulance and firetruck sirens for fentanyl ODs, my neighbours door being kicked in by a drug collector, or the sounds of an entire crew of garbagemen at 4am shoveling and scraping the street of needles, nothing but constant noise. Walking up in dead sleep to police banging their flashlight on your door asking if you want to be a witness to whatever drug murder happened while you were unconscious. The beautiful freedom when you move to the most remote part of a country and you can't hear a thing all night except a river rushing. Nobody screaming, nobody crying for hours on end, no arguements over petty bullshit. No pepper spray victims screaming no police blaring on their cruiser mic to clear the streets because they can't be bothered to exit the car, no fire alarms because your neighbor fell asleep while his crack burned away on the stove, no helicopters looking for somebody with a spotlight in your window.

<comment><USER11> What's a drug collector? Or is that a typo. I just want to know what one is if there is a such a thing.

<comment><USER12> Like a debt collector but specifically for drug money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> For anyone looking for what the article is (mainly) about before reading it all: chiller whine for large datacenters/complexes between 630-1000 Hertz. Ironically at no point in the story did anyone actually find out how loud the noise was.

<comment><USER14> That's what was so weird to me. The guy was an engineer and it never occurred to him to go out and get some scientific measurements? Instead, he just wastes time sending daily emails to city council members and contacting other authorities like the police. It also appears that the sounds not only don't bother most everyone else, but they can't even hear them.

If you are going to make such a concerted effort to fix something, at least get some objective data or else you risk looking like someone with a mental illness or like someone who is "allergic" to WiFi.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Ever since I moved to the states, I've had nothing but stress from noise. First in Midwest where neighbor never walked their dog. They blasted music at 3 am (confronted many times and all). Then on the west coast - noisy streets nearby my apt. Then between the 405 and the 5 in Irvine (the highway noise never ends) Then again when I moved to Washington and had an upstairs neighbor who would have kids over every day running, all day no carpets. When running stopped, vacuum came on. Rinse and repeat. All those years I have developed hate for the way things were. It seems no matter where I went there was no escape from noise. Three years ago I moved to rural Japan and my life has changed dramatically. Over here, everyone has kids in my neighborhood. Naturally, they get quiet around 8pm and I don't hear a single sound by 9-10pm. It's been heaven. Now when I sleep through the night it's dead silent and I can rest my weary soul. The area lacks in so many other ways, but the dead silence of the night makes up for all of them. I wish everyone had a chance to sleep in complete silence (unless you are one of those people that needs sound to sleep).

<comment><USER15> I'm quite sensitive to noises. Here are some of my hard-learned lessons:

\- try to always rent the flat on the top floor - the noises coming through the celing are by far the worst. The roofs in my country are usually poorly insulated, which means hot apartment in the summer. It's still better than the noise - heat can be dealt with by installing AC, while you can't do anything about the neighbors.

\- try to live in a building with as few apartments as possible. Noise travels well through construction materials, and if you live in say 200-meter long building, chances are there will often be someone currently renovating his flat with a jackhammer etc. and that noise will be infuriatingly loud in your apartment.

\- no windows coming out to the street that's a transit street (i.e. used regularly by anyone else than the people who live on the street and around). Double no if public transit goes there. Also, it's worse to have a window near a crossroad with lights or near a turn (people slow down and/or stop there, and then accelerating generates a lot of noise). Ideally, no windows coming on a street at all, but for example cull-de-sac road is ok, because it's guaranteed to be used by locals only.

Apart from that, I'm always insiting on seeing some landscape, or at least a big patch of the sky, out of my window. Nothing more depressing than 100% of your view being just a wall of the opposing building.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Many people either cannot hear very low frequency sound, and they cannot understand what it's like for those of us who can.

The sounds don't necessarily get louder at night - there are just fewer competing sounds to mask them.

Earplugs and other sound barriers make it worse by filtering out higher frequency sounds, making the remaining VLF sounds seem louder.

VLFs also penetrate earth, stone, concrete, etc. And because of their long periods, especially when accidentally synced with parallel walls, some locations in your house can behave like an amplifier.

There's no real solution other than moving, and there's no guarantee that human progress will not catch up with you in your next location.

<comment><USER17> As a trained sound engineer, I don't find this explanation wholly plausible. Human hearing is increasingly less sensitive at low frequencies; the threshold of hearing is typically around 60dB at 20Hz and 72dB at 10Hz. Anyone who has configured a large public address system knows that vast amounts of power are needed to deliver useful response at these frequencies; many systems simply fake the presence of low bass by tuning in a big peak at 40 or 50Hz, which requires two or three orders of magnitude less power.

Structure-borne noise is a real problem in many buildings, but I'm aware of very few instances of neighbourhood-wide noise problems at very low frequencies.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal- loudness_contour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour)

<comment><USER16> I can't say whether it is an ear hearing or some other sensitivity to resonance (of the skull?).

The sensation is stronger on one side/ear, and it feels like the pressure you feel if someone goes "puh" softly in your ear in a quiet room... except that it happens over and over at a low frequency.

I have experienced it in several different places. One place was at college on the cliffs overlooking the Mississippi river, and I suspect it was from the boats that push barges (cargo) down the river.

Other places have been near heavy freight train routes, particularly when a train is idling somewhere within perhaps a mile.

It's like if a big truck is idling a few houses down the street in a quiet neighborhood.

In one location in the mountains of Colorado, the sound could be heard a many locations throughout the valley. I know this because i drove around in the quiet and remote regions, stopping periodically to listen. Some spots were impressively loud, and others were not audible. In that environment I suspect it was due to wind over the mountain ridge (sharp edged on one side, and the wind would cause a pressure differential to build until it would break and the air would take a chaotic path briefly). This is similar to what you see and hear with a fireplace where the fire is burning mostly on one side of a log, but the air flows in a way that creates a pressure differential... and it may cause a puff puff puff pattern that is both audible and visible (flame leaping around the other side of the log exactly at the moment you hear the puff).

<comment><USER18> TLDR: Please have your hearing thoroughly tested.

I have no idea if this anecdote relates to your experience:

My SO was hearing a rhythmic noise. More so at night. Very disturbing. Much drama.

An audiologist (?) determined some of the tiny hairs inside one of the ears were flopping around. The supporting membrane got slack with age. A form of tinnitus.

These tiny hairs are sensitive to motion, so even heartbeats and breathing will create the sensation of sound.

<comment><USER16> Were there it not that my perception of the sound was highly dependent upon my location (even within one room), I might be inclined to believe it was my problem.

If you've ever played with a good subwoofer, you know that where you stand relative to the speaker and the frequency it is generating greatly impacts your ability to hear it. You can be in a dead zone and hear almost nothing, but a few steps back or forward and suddenly your eyeballs are vibrating. Same thing with these environmental hum situations, but much more subtle.

<comment><USER18> Of course environment & context effects hearing. Ears perceive changing air pressure as sound. The body feels other frequencies (whatever that's called).

FWIW, my SO's perceptions varied with location as well.

At the very least, an audiologist (?) would help you rule out factors. Or in our case, becoming more aware of the current best available science.

Think of it as a physical. I certainly wish I had my hearing periodically thoroughly assessed. Like I already do for my pulmonary function, eyesight, BMI, etc.

Also FWIW, even though my SO's condition is untreatable, awareness helped her better manage it.

I hope you find some relief. Keep looking. Someone, somewhere has the answers you need.

Best wishes.

<comment><USER16> Thanks. It's probably worth getting checked, because as you say it may help me understand how to manage things better.

Fortunately it's rare that I'm in a location that's so bad for me that I can't handle it. The low-speed air purifier (fan) solution is usually good enough when necessary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> In NYC the screeching of the subway trains at the station is easily loud enough to be physically painful to my ears. Especially in underground local stations where you have a local train arriving + express trains rolling past. That can be 90-100 decibels (equivalent to a jet engine taking off 300m away).

Restaurants here are regularly 70-90 decibels. Equivalent to the noise of a blender next to you. Everything in the restaurant reflects sound and its not unusual to be sitting about 2 feet from the person at the table next to you.

I'm genuinely worried for my long-term hearing living here. Noise-cancelling headphones and even ear plugs are a must.

<comment><USER20> What decibel meter are you using to get those readings? Seems insane that the loudest restaurant is equivalent to a jet engine taking off.

<comment><USER21> small, busy restaurants without sound deadening can be really loud, but I doubt it's actually 90dB. that's like the opening band at a small music venue.

<comment><USER22> It's a real phenomenon. Most restaurants aren't quite that high but there are a surprisingly large amount that are.

I'm the cofounder of an app that crowd sources noise levels at bars and restaurants. You may find it useful.

It's called SoundPrint.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Man made noise is certainly a nuisance, but I think "nature" is not always as quiet as we like to think.

A few years ago I spent a week out in the middle of the Costa Rican jungle — miles from anyone. One thing that stuck with me was how loud the jungle was, especially at night. The bugs would start buzzing around dusk, the frogs would add to the chorus around midnight with loud croaking, and then in the wee hours of the morning we'd be treated to the piercing shrieks of monkeys.

Not exactly an ideal soundscape for a peaceful night's sleep or quiet reflection.

</comment><comment><USER24> The number of appliances that intentionally make noise and cannot be configured to stop making noise irks me.

I never want microwaves, dishwashers, laundry machines, etc. to make any noise. Even worse is how many of them continue making noise until you unload them. I'd like to one day be able to run a load of laundry or dishes overnight without being constantly woken up.

<comment><USER25> I own a washing machine that particularly annoys me.

It beeps at the end of the wash, as if expecting you to unload it.

It also has a heat sensor tied to the door lock, where it won't let you unlock the door if it's too hot. It also takes 5-10 minutes after a wash to reach a level where it'll let you open the door.

<comment><USER26> We recently bought a new dishwasher that's nearly silent during operation, and will automatically open the door and power down at the end of the cycle (no notification beeps).

It didn't cost us any extra, but I would've paid double for that now that I've had it for six months. I can start it immediately before going to bed and when I wake up it's finished.

<comment><USER27> You can't just post a comment like that without mentioning what model/make the dishwasher is.

<comment><USER26> It's an Electrolux ESF5545LIX, the brand name for the tech is "AirDry" if that's easier to search for maybe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I think it's time we start to think seriously about noise pollution and regulation. Most countries have laws around noise, but policing typically isn't helpful. You tend to have a 'self-mediation first', 'police warnings second' and 'court cases third', policy, which I think is mostly fine. But if authorities don't take it seriously, it usually gets stuck in the first phase and never progresses beyond neighbour-disputes. Frequent-noise makers aren't typically the most reasonable bunch to speak to.

<comment><USER29> I think that when there's regulation, the problem is that sometimes filing a complaint may take too much time, and same for the police to check anything. It should be automated.

I submitted this to Hacker News some months ago, and seems relevant here...

Tell HN: Steal idea for product to automate reporting of barking dogs complaints [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19436807](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19436807)

(although I was thinking of dog barking when I wrote it, it's actually applicable for any kind of noise pollution)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> If your acoustic environment is driving you nuts, you may want to speak to an audiologist and/or ENT. There is a condition called hyperacusis[1] worth asking about.

If everyday noise is debilitating or anxiety-inducing for and it doesn't seem like others are affected to the degree you are, it wouldn't hurt to speak to a hearing specialist. The causes and treatments of this (spectrum?) condition aren't entirely agreed upon, but tinnitus retraining therapy or other adaptation techniques might improve your life.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacusis)

<comment><USER31> Thank you very much for pointing that out!

I'm not sure why it never occurred to me that mine could be a medical condition, and all this time I have been quietly hating myself for being extremely intolerant of others while the condition gets worse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Whoever decided to make cars beep when you lock or unlock them did humanity a disservice in my view. I don't think the small benefit of helping the driver locate their vehicle outweighs the shear number of times that has woken people up.

<comment><USER33> Is this an American thing?

In Europe I never ever hear cars beep when locked/unlocked, just the mechanical sound of the central locking and flashing the hazard lights once when unlocked, double when locked successful and tripple when lock failed(door not closed properly).

Having your car make a loud sound for lock/unlock just creates more noise in the neighborhood.

<comment><USER34> Maybe. But it's also slightly more nuanced. Honda for example works like this. One press of the remote, locks all the doors. The second press will beep the horn if all the doors are successfully locked. If you left one of the doors open, the horn won't beep on the second press. So it's a away of getting confirmation that all doors are closed and locked. It seems useful, but when my neighbor comes home in the middle of the night and locks her car and the horn wakes up my kid who starts crying, it seems a lot less useful.

<comment><USER35> What gets me are the number of people who will put their keys in their pocket and just beat the ever loving hell out of the "lock" button as they walk away. So it's all "beep," "beep beep," "beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep" until they finally get out of range.

I'm sure those are the same people who, if or when they are pedestrians, stand at the corner and repeatedly slam the crosswalk request button.

<comment><USER14> Seems like a much better UX would be for the remote to ding or vibrate instead of having the car make a sound. But then that would cost a few more dollars I suppose.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I live across the street from a firehouse in Manhattan. They are noisy and politically untouchable so calling 311 doesn't help.

They test these devices to get through doors that are basically chainsaws _every day_ at random times.

I once asked a fireman why they test them daily. He said, "It would be a shame to find out it didn't work when we got there."

I asked innocently, "When you test it, you know it works, but as soon as you stop it, you don't know if it works any more. That test might have been its last working. How do you know daily is the right amount?"

He said, "It would be a shame to find out it didn't work when we got there."

I took away that there was no reason for daily. They just did it that way.

If anyone out there knows a proper testing frequency for chainsaws, I'd love to find out, especially if it's well documented and less often than daily.

<comment><USER37> I vaguely recall reading a few articles about how firehouses are less necessary as we have less fires today, but we struggle to reduce their numbers as they are heavily unionized. This is the narrative I at least have floating in my mind.

[https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/19/palo-alto- cuts-11-fir...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/10/19/palo-alto- cuts-11-firefighter-jobs-after-stanford-reduces-contract/)

<comment><USER38> This is a UK perspective but IMO much of the reduction in fires has been because of the work done by the Fire Brigade. Education, information campaigns, pushing for reforms, calls to action etc. Any reduction in numbers – and the manner in which it happens (in case it has a multiplying effect of disuasing new recruits when they're actually needed) – should be done very, very carefully.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Loudly beeping lifts in stations, like a fire alarm, while no moving parts whatsover are exposed inside or outside.

The beeping of cars when the doors are open.

The short blaring of car alarms, when they are closed remotely via key fob, just to make sure they work!

The beeping of bus and train doors when they are closing.

The banging hissing vents of overpressure in the pneumatic tanks of busses and trucks.

The humming and hissing of HVAC for the refrigeration of supermarkets.

The blaring of music in supermarkets (special case: Kylie Minogue with 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head' which somehow seems to be in the eternal Top 20ies of supermarket music. La la la, lall lall, la la la lall lall....), the penetrant marketing displays activating from some endless loop when anything comes near them.

The stupid video walls in stations, blaring uninteresting shortnews, weather, and adverstisements while almost everybody is sunken into their smartphones. Talk about wasted effort!

The same goes for so called information displays in Trains, Subways, Metros, Buses installed every 2nd to 3rd row of seats.

I could, and sometimes do counter that with something playing over my earphones, but i don't like to, because it messes with my situational awareness.

<comment><USER40> Oh man, good to know I'm not alone

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I have 3M PELTOR X5A Ear Muffs. I use them all the time, from getting a snooze while my car charges, to working in louder than necessary cafes, to getting decent if slightly uncomfortable sleep in a hotel. They're $31 delivered from Amazon. It amused the hell out of me that I had to click through an agreement saying I was a profession. I am a professional.

Since these are 31db ear muffs, they're heavier than something with less protection. These are over the head model and I may get the X5B behind the neck model. Harder to get though. Not on Amazon.

I tried noise cancelling headphones. When they work, they're great. But anything unusual and I'd get feedback. Dumb ear muffs work all the time plus they're super ugly and so people leave you alone.

I don't understand why noise cancelling doesn't recognize it's in feedback.

<comment><USER42> > to working in louder than necessary cafes

The loudness of cafes is necessary, at least to the business owner. Across the world, even in countries where cafes used to be peaceful places for reading and long conversations, owners have increasingly preferred to blast loud music and remove sound-dampening. The constant din has a subconscious effect on customers, leading them to leave the establishment after they finish their drink. So, they quickly free up the table for the next customers. People occupying a table for hours on just one or two purchases is one of cafe owners' most frequent complaints.

I can sympathize with your sensitivity to noise – I pack earplugs for working in cafes – but if you are wearing blatant ear muffs you may well be pissing the proprietor off.

<comment><USER38> Sufficient but not necessary (I do understand that running a profitable food establishment is extremely difficult).

Establishments also do the following to encourage turnover:

\- Buy uncomfortable tables/chairs

\- Set higher prices for sitting down at a table vs standing at the bar (or eating in vs takeaway)

\- Not bring you the dessert menu, hoping you'll get up and leave

Loud music is cheap, easy and proven, so I can see why it's popular

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> the worst are

* bells from catholic churches (when they play early Sunday morning they just invite you to blaspheme)

* muezzin shouting from the mosque (aggravated from the fact that they talk Arabic, were in many countries, e.g. Turkey, nobody talks arabic, so nobody understand!)

and the worst of the worst is that in both cases sound comes from tapes (no live at all, and very bad taped).

Any national new legislation must face this issue: as to say it will be very hard deal with, without touching religions' susceptibility.

<comment><USER44> > bells from catholic churches

The huge bronze bells in Germany are another thing entirely. They sound wonderful (dare I say heavenly?).

But the cheap electric klaxons used in American churches are horrible.

<comment><USER45> There's nothing wonderful about them when you live half a km/mi from them and they go off at 9AM, don't stop for 10-15 minutes and you really wanted to sleep.

<comment><USER46> I'm sure they put them up after you moved to that location, correct?

<comment><USER47> Honestly, It's hard to fault someone for failing to notice something that happens irregularly like that. Unless you're willing to camp out in the front yard of a prospective home 24x7 for a week, you're likely to miss this.

The onus is on the noisemaker to make less noise, not everyone else to avoid the area. If they didn't move there, someone else with less money would have.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> From the subtitle:

> The tech industry is producing a rising din. Our bodies can't adapt.

This is a great article, but did I miss something or is this subtitle more or less irrelevant? The only source of noise mentioned related to the tech industry is the lead-in story's data center cooling system, and 95% of the article has nothing to do with it.

This is interesting to me in and of itself: it's another unfortunate example of The Atlantic's long-established internal struggle between quality journalism and clickbait, but it's also another fascinating data point for how the term "tech industry" has become a universal-purpose scapegoat for the kinds of simpletons looking for simple, singular explanations for all of the world's ills.

</comment><comment><USER49> In last few months I've travelled to the US a few times. In all 3 hotels I've stayed in, I've had to switch rooms (in one hotel even 3 times in the course of a week) due to low frequency noise of ACs of neighbouring rooms and/or general ventilation system. Ear plugs simply don't cut it anymore these days.

<comment><USER50> The US is generally pretty noisy. House walls are thin and there is a lot of AC and heating noise. Whenever I come back to Germany I notice how quiet the houses are due to brick walls.

<comment><USER51> The church bells create a very regular cacophany from seemingly every direction however, at least here in Switzerland (can't speak for Germany). This seems to be much less common in the US.

<comment><USER52> The church in the small Swiss town I lived in rang its bell every _15 minutes_ , even in the middle of night. Maybe the locals find it comforting. It kept me up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> For those who own their place and can afford it, I found this site a great resource for soundproofing. [https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing- solutions...](https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing- solutions/soundproofing-ceilings)

</comment><comment><USER54> My wife and I bought our first house this summer. We moved from a city of 300k to the suburbs of a city of 40k about 45 mins away.

We thought through a ton of things when buying but the one thing that caught us by surprise was the change in noise level. It's quiet here. The only ambience is a train that runs through the middle of the city like 10-20 times a day but we are far enough away that this this wonderfully peaceful low rumble for a minute. I fall asleep to it.

The inside is also an interesting lesson on noise. The main floor is a big open concept with 10 foot ceilings. Sound echoes like mad and we were forced, counter intuitively, to speak more quietly if we wanted to hear each other across the room. I think it's slowly training us to be quieter people and I love it for no immediate practical reason.

<comment><USER55> Do you have neighbors and/or are you in an area with lawns that need maintenance?

Suburbs in the midwest are inundated with noise: lawnmowers, leaf blowers, trimmers, and cars.

<comment><USER56> One nice thing is that battery electric versions of all of those are now quite good and are becoming more popular. They still make some noise of course, but far, far less than gas powered versions. The lack of maintenance is great too. I could have a conversation at a normal speaking volume beside my lawnmower if I wanted. (Of course I would probably shut it off, since it's only a pull of a switch to start it again!)

<comment><USER57> I find it interesting that you associate electric versions of lawn tools with less maintenance. It's been my experience that when they break, there's not much you can do (I guess that's where the less comes in) - fixing batteries and motors is harder or impossible compared to small engines for me. All of the other maintenance still applies: sharpening blades, replacing edging wire, oiling moving parts, etc.

<comment><USER56> It's true that when it breaks there's often little you can do, and that is a downside. But gasoline engines do require maintenance, and you do save that effort with electric tools. Really the main effort saved is just refilling the gas though, especially when you forget you're out and end up halfway through the lawn having to go get more. Of course you still need to sharpen blades and change trimmer string and such; I didn't say _no_ maintenance, just less.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> There's an app opportunity here. Write something which captures audio, timestamps it with millsecond accuracy, annotates it with GPS info, and sends it to a web site for correlation. When you want to find some noise source, get a few people to walk around running this app. Then the site can locate it from the time differences, with a much longer baseline than human inter-ear distance.

<comment> j-conn Love this idea. My first thought is that calibrating mics could be difficult. I wonder how good existing decibel meter apps are

<comment><USER58> You locate using time, not amplitude, so microphone calibration isn't an issue. Take the incoming waveforms with close timestamps and convolve them on the server to line them up. Get ΔT values for each pair of phones picking up the matching sound. Each ΔT value places the source on a hyperbola. You need at least 3 phones to get a location where the hyperbolas intersect. More will be better.

Multipath always makes a delay longer, not shorter, which helps in resolving ambiguity in areas with reflective building walls.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> As a gulf coast region resident, I can attest to this phenomenon. When the cold front came through this weekend, it was like someone just turned down the volume outside. The difference is incredible, but you can never quite put your finger on any particular source. I do think it's just everyone's HVAC compressors & fans combining into this noise soup. Everyone says they can sleep better when it's colder at night, but I think it's just because it's so much quieter at night around here when its below 70F. The noise floor had to have dropped by 6dB or better overnight.

</comment><comment><USER60> I can understand how low frequency sound can be incredibly annoying. Oddly, some are soothing to me. There's this point when waking up where if I hear a gentle hum, it becomes comforting and I want to lay there and listen until it lulls me to sleep. There was something about the distant hum of the old Mack DSNY trucks, before the Volvo engine switch. I'd wake up to them but it was so nice to just lay in bed with that sound. I can also hear the MTA subway diesel engines on the elevated tracks a block from me. I also used to enjoy the sound of my mother vacuuming down stairs when I was a kid sleeping in on the weekend. At work I sometimes retreat to the pump room where the whine of machinery can be sort of soothing. I do have this ADHD anxiety thing and my head gets all swirly with things so the noise helps.

Sometimes I use a white noise sleep app and combine a few machine sounds into a sort of whining whirr of machinery. And I put it on low as if I'm sleeping in a room off down the hall from a machinery room.

Though sometimes it can be too much. Sometimes you just want to turn the sound off. I do hear a hum at night in my south Queens NYC neighborhood. Always begins around 9PM. I can't explain it but it's like a buzzing whirr that pulsates or whines a few times and then dies out in an echoey fashion. Then comes back minutes later. Often with large gaps between them. I could even describe it as almost like some alien spacecraft engine whine from a sci fi flick. They don't bother me a lot but if it became constant, I don't think I could sleep as its very low and shrill. I am near JFK and major roads so who knows.

</comment><comment> frosted-flakes The article includes an interview with Stéphane Pigeon of mynoise.net, a website for creating dynamic noise machines. I use it all the time and think it would appeal to a lot of people on HN.

</comment><comment><USER61> I suffer from misophonia, I can't live in an apartment or work from an office. It's really difficult to deal with.

Everyone is used to loud noises and nobody cares, but I get seriously annoyed.

<comment><USER62> So how do you deal with it?

Are there any federal rules / regulations currently in the pipeline to help such sufferers?

Do other countries - perhaps Scandinavian - have standardized noise norms that you cannot exceed or are they pretty much non-existent everywhere?

<comment><USER63> As a fellow misophonia enthusiast (it's not an officially recognised condition) — noise cancelling headphones and music are the only way I can survive office environments. A pinch of stoicism and deep breaths helps when stuff gets through.

For me the worst trigger sounds are eating noises and crinkly food wrappers. Trying to open a crinkly wrapper quietly makes it worse.

The misophonia gets worse when I'm otherwise stressed which leads me to believe dealing with it is like dealing with any other stressor: You just man or woman up and deal.

Me and my sister both have it so we obviously used to use it to poke fun at the other. Squishing bananas in your mouth is the quickest way to provoke a reaction. You might get punched*

*the punching response is, of course, restrained in the office. If I get that annoyed, I just walk away.

<comment><USER64> loud road noises have made it hard to go to sleep. white noise generators (well, brown) using cheap $5 earbuds has helped immensely. I have Bose qc-20 for daytime stuff, but you can't sleep with them very long - they'll break, and it's very expensive to replace. The $5 earbuds don't last forever, but I often get 2-3 months out of a pair.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> "Sound is when you mow your lawn, noise is when your neighbor mows their lawn, and music is when your neighbor mows your lawn," says Arjun Shankar,

Someone should develop a silent air handling system

</comment><comment><USER66> One of the biggest benefits of electric vehicles will be quieter streets. Gasoline cars are so damn loud when you really pay attention.

<comment><USER67> Round where I live, it's the wheel noise that gives me a massive headache whenever I go for a walk. Engine noise barely registers, except in the case of some (intentionally) loud cars or trucks.

Simply reducing speed limit in urban & residental areas would help a lot, but that appears to be an unpopular proposition. I guess people really are in a hurry to sit in the next set of red lights.

<comment><USER68> Twenty's plenty! Popular in the UK, but in the US we seem to think it's more appropriate to mark residential streets at 25 but design them to encourage driving at 45+.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Noise isn't really what these people are complaining about, it's manmade noise.

The loudest thing I've ever hear is the sound of total silence. Your brain is so used to hearing _something_ that it will manufacture sound when you're completely isolated, and it does a bad job of it. Which is why sensory deprivation makes great torture.

<comment><USER70> I've also heard (pun not intended) that the ear itself and the sensory system has an inherent "noise floor", you can hear it when you are in an anechoic chamber.

<comment><USER69> It's that sound that the brain tries to amplify up to normal volumes. The sound of the little hairs swishing, blood flowing, shit (literal) moving through your guts.

A decent write-up here [https://www.wired.com/2015/05/big-question-can- silence-make-...](https://www.wired.com/2015/05/big-question-can-silence-make- hear-things-arent/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> I slept for about 18 months in a second-story room overlooking one of the busier streets in town. That'll never happen again. Motorcycles were especially obnoxious; I usually sleep like the dead, including all the way through an energetic northern California earthquake, but we had a regular that would rip up and down the street sometime after 1 a.m. and it often interrupted my sleep.

Also -- and this hasn't previously been a popular thing to say on HN, but here it is again -- this is largely an urban living problem. Smaller towns have their noisy bits too, but they don't tend to have the constant, non-stop din that is a signature aspect of metropolitan areas.

I've been camping at a few different parks and the like since moving out, just getting some R&R, and it's amazing how much better I'm sleeping and, gradually, feeling.

<comment><USER72> similar situation for me currently but i manage to survive using a white noise machine. I also leave the fan on in the summer for the noise. I wonder if I would feel better if i transitioned to a quiet sleeping environment.

i've thought many times about how loud motorcycles are even legal, especially at late hours. I even see ebikes that are just as loud which is absolutely insane to me. The worst part was when my downstairs neighbor owned a motorcycle. Occasionally he'd rev the engine or something at 1 am for 10 whole minutes before actually driving it away. Very thankful he's gone now.

<comment><USER64> I agree on motorcycles, but have read that the loudness is at least partially a safety thing for them, as other car drivers won't notice them without some sound.

<comment><USER72> i'm glad i commented so you could inform me - there's always another side to everything.

that makes some sense, though like you say it must be partial. i have no problem with japanese motorcycles which seem to be much much quieter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> Tinnitus sufferer here. Left ear no longer hears anything in the environment, but rings loudly at all times. Stereo is a distant memory, locating the source of any noise involves spinning in a circle. Let me get out my tiniest violin for you all.

</comment><comment><USER74> Another reason why drones should be banned from residential and public areas.

<comment><USER75> That seems like quite a leap. Drones are far from the worse source of noise. They can't even stay in the air that long.

<comment><USER76> Plus you don't notice them once they get about 100-150 feet up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> I was pleasantly surprised when I walked out in front of my house the other day. When we bought it last year, in early spring, we had hoped the nearby small wooded area would block out some freeway noise once the leaves grew in, but it didn't help. Now there's a big new high school under construction between us and the freeway. That direction is almost entirely silent in the evening. We might not be so lucky when football games start next year, but that's better than constant engine braking sounds.

</comment><comment><USER78> I've got a low frequency hum that has been permeating my environment for years. I have no idea where it is coming from. Low frequencies are especially hard to locate by ear due to their omnidirectional nature. I'm pretty sure there is nothing I can do about it. It has messed up my ability to record music though. I used to be able to record and mix in my living room but that has not been possible for many years now without constantly hearing that noise.

</comment><comment><USER79> If you don't hear a hum, don't look for it. Once you're aware of it, it can drive you nuts. I spent quite a while looking for the source of a low- frequency hum at my old house and never came up with anything. As far as I could tell, it wasn't just the sound of blood rushing in my veins or tinnitus.

Out of curiosity, is there a good sensor for picking up acoustical vibrations between, say, 0.5-50Hz? Would a MEMS sensor go that low and have a flat response?

</comment><comment><USER80> Living in Karachi, Pakistan, I so agree with this. Karachi is 3rd largest city in the world and it is getting louder by the day. First thing you notice when you land here is the level of noise. From honking cars to people shouting on the roads, it is unbearable.

</comment><comment><USER81> Wasn't there some type of legislation or something that mandated that all sound from a single TV channel stay at the same volume? IIRC it was something around the car commercials etc. that were always louder that the other programs.

</comment><comment><USER40> This thread is amazing.

People I know don't care much about sounds, and I feel alone with me being easily annoyed by all the sirens, honks, music, PA in airports, cars blazing by, etc.

Good to know there are more people who care about silent environment.

</comment><comment><USER82> Why are we building data centers in the desert? From an efficiency perspective, it just seems like a comically bad idea.

<comment><USER83> Because the land price is very low.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> I hate motorcycles, AKA fart-mobiles.

Why do all of them seem to have broken mufflers? Is it really that hard to make motorcycle mufflers so they don't break?

<comment><USER85> People intentionally remove them to make them louder.

</comment></comment><comment><USER86> Hell yeah.

</comment><comment><USER87> Click bait title should actually read "Everything is getting louder for people who live near loud things"...

<comment><USER88> People are increasingly living near loud things.</comment></comment>


Spain official apologizes for spraying beach with bleach - <AUTHOR> https://www.foxnews.com/world/spain-coronavirus-beach-bleach-children-outdoors-lockdown <comment><USER2> I saw videos from China with trucks driving down city streets spraying a sort of fog after they shut the city down. It was reminiscent of US efforts fogging DDT for mosquitoes back in the day.

I had to wonder if that is even effective against a virus...</comment>


Ask HN: Any way out of IP assignment and non-compete without quitting my job? - <AUTHOR> I took a dev job about 6 mos ago and signed non-compete and IP assignment because I was in a weak bargaining position.
The problem, coding is also my hobby. I really miss being able to freelance and my open source projects are dying on the vine. It's really bothering me, especially because the coding I'm doing at work is extra soul crushing and not what I signed up for.
If I could get out of these contracts in any way so I could freelance and pick up my OSS projects again I would be delighted. However I get the feeling it may be dangerous to my career to even ask.
Any of you have luck talking your way out of these contracts for personal projects? <comment><USER2> Carefully read the contract that you signed. Understand it.

Now you have the answer.</comment>


Appeals court doubts that Zuckerberg committed "securities fraud" - <AUTHOR> http://www.law.com/jsp/ca/PubArticleCA.jsp?id=1202477738186

<comment><AUTHOR> In my view, the last major legal cloud that hangs over Facebook is the appeal by ConnectU and the Winklevoss brothers of a federal court decision upholding a settlement between them and FB of their claims that Mr. Zuckerberg had allegedly stolen their ideas to form the company. With that settlement in place, those parties received what many considered a windfall ($20M cash and 1.2 shares of FB stock, originally valued at $45M and now estimated to be worth $150M). Should it be set aside, however, the settlement value of such claims today would be astronomical. Why? Because these claims (unlike those of Mr. Ceglia, who filed a claim nearly seven years after the fact claiming an "84% stake in Facebook") were timely brought and have overhung every round of financing that FB has done from the beginning. In other words, existing FB shareholders have at all times been aware, in making their investment, of the risk that they could potentially lose everything should ConnectU prevail in its claims to own the FB IP. That is a devastating outcome for FB shareholders, of course, but the claimants here (unlike Mr. Ceglia) cannot be accused of laches or foot-dragging in ways that make the timing of their claims inequitable and therefore unenforceable. Thus, should they get this settlement set aside, FB would be faced with _years_ of future litigation during which a serious question mark would hang over the entire value of its company. Hence, no IPO; hence, a far higher cost of any financing down the road. The stakes are high in this case.

The ConnectU parties have sought to set the settlement aside on the grounds that FB and Mr. Zuckerberg committed "securities fraud" in inducing them to accept stock in the company whose value they allegedly overstated at the time it was offered to them in settlement of their case (see this press account which caused a frenzy at HN some 7 months ago, [http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/19/facebook-connectu- securiti...](http://venturebeat.com/2010/05/19/facebook-connectu-securities- fraud/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitter-publisher- author&utm_campaign=twitter) and my comment on it here, <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1362379>).

As I argued before, the securities-fraud claim was extremely artificial for several reasons but mainly because it is wildly outrageous, by lawsuit standards, that a party should be held to comply with such laws in a confidential mediation context.

It now seems that the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals is inclined to that view as well. This news account is based only on the views publicly expressed by the judges during the course of oral argument and anything is possible, of course. But this doesn't appear to be going ConnectU's way at this point and, barring a significant change of heart by the panel from that indicated by its comments, FB would appear to have this one safely in hand.</comment>


Ask HN: How to purchase a domain from owner? - <AUTHOR>

I am interested in purchasing a domain name that is currently up for sale. The owner is asking for an offer price. What is a good way to determine the price to offer, and on what terms are domains typically sold? <comment><USER3> The first rule in negotiation is to get him to give you a price. From here you have the upper hand in knowing what his thought process is. By you providing him an offer price you are doing one of two things. You are either letting him know your "minimum", or what you think it is worth personally, or you are letting him know your "maximum". Either way you are hosed here. If you let him know your "minimum" he knows he has room to negotiate up. If you let him know your "maximum", you are opening yourself up to paying way more than what you could have potentially purchased it for. By getting him to concede a price you gain this upper hand. If you believe that the price is to high, you should work to prove him wrong. If you believe it is a steal, then jump on the deal.

Now the question is how to determine if his price is "realistic". There are several factors at play here. First he may see you approaching him about the domain as a chance to make "big" money. His understanding of the market may be minimal and he may have read new stories of people paying top dollar for domains. He may perceive your approaching him as a chance to make his cash. Knowing what his price range is a step for assessing this. Proving exact traffic will be difficult, but you can guesstimate the amount it may potentially receive.

1) Is the domain name currently ranked in Google in the top 10 or 20? If it is in the top 10 it has instant appeal for you and the price just went up. Top 20 still getting a good price, but not as much as in the top 10. 2) Is he monetizing the site currently in any way? If so, you should ask him to provide you with documentation or some kind proof on how much he is making from it. This may be difficult and he may be reluctant to show you. Comes down to power of persuasion here. 3) Is the domain something "catchy" or a high-demand domain name (i.e. 3 letter .com)? 4) If you find yourself making no headway or want an extra negotiating tactic you can always have the domain "appraised" by an independent 3rd party (yes there are companies that do this, I just can't think of their names right now). Just Google domain appraisers or I am sure someone will jump in here and fill in the blanks. You can sell this as a benefit to him as he will now have an outside opinion on the value of his domain. The problem with this method is that you and him may be thinking the domain is worth $100, but the appraiser comes in and says it is worth $1000. Now he is going to want a $1000 when you could have had it for $100. This is where knowing his price thought is beneficial. 5) Put your offer out there. Walk away if necessary if you don't feel him budging. Give him a few days and come back to him. Let his emotions (good and bad) wear down over those days. If this is the first time someone has approached him regarding the domain he may be tempted for a big offer at first, but after a couple days of sitting on his brain you may get a more realistic response.

As for terms, just make sure that all control and ownership of the domain is transferred to you. You could work with an escrow company or third-party for this.

<comment><USER4> > The first rule in negotiation is to get him to give you a price.

This can backfire if they offer a very high price that they can't come down on without losing face. An alternative strategy is to offer your "maximum plausible position" (forget who coined that phrase, smart guy though) - <USER2> this case, the lowest dollar amount that you won't look like you're joking.

To use a high profile real life example, look at Scott Boras, the baseball agent. He'll ask for 7 years and $110 million for a client that eventually gets 5 years and $60 million... but who was arguably worth less than that.

You're right about over-bidding, you need some knowledge about the worth of things to make an offer that isn't ridiculous without risking overpaying. But if he's bidding a on a decent parked 3 letter domain name, for instance, it'd be silly to bid less than low hundreds. For a longer or less memorable phrase, maybe you could open with offering $50. But it's not always a mistake to offer first, it can set the tone and scope of the discussion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The big difficulty when purchasing domains is this:

Consider a person who owns unused domain X. X comes up for renewal. Owner is torn about whether it's worth another $10 (or whatever) to own the domain another year. If they say the domain out there for sale for $100, there is no chance this person would buy the domain.

Then a random inquiry comes in from a potential buyer. The owner is suddenly struck with a powerful case of the endowment effect ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect> ), and imagines the buyer is probably a well-funded startup, or maybe a Fortune 500, or perhaps even Google! Or Microsoft! Or maybe a joint venture between Google, Microsoft, and Facebook, which desperately needs this domain! Suddenly the owner treasures this domain. The thought of parting with it is unbearable. The notion of putting a mere price on such a precious domain, unthinkable!

Yet the actual prospective buyer might only find the domain worth a few hundred dollars; so usually no deal is possible.

</comment><comment><USER6> Let's say there are 3 types of domain: parked domain, in-use domains, monetized domains. Here's what I would do:

Parked domain: I would offer no more than $50. Most parked, un-used domains are going to be parked forever. The chances being sold are very low, so you can use this advantage to really push down the price. Also, if the domain name is just the name of one of your project idea, you can always pick something else that its domain is available.

In-used domain. At this part, it really depends. As jeffmould said, try looking up its search engine ranking and determine its value based on SEO.

Monetized domain. Usually the owner of this kind of domains wants to sell at a relative high price. Do a little bit of research and estimate how much the site is making every month. Let's say it's generating $1000 ad revenue per month, anywhere between $5000-$10000 will be acceptable.

To conclude, the golden rule is always offer your lowest expected price. Because the owner is 100% going to raise the price from what you say until you're both satisfied.

</comment><comment><USER7> If you do come to an agreement eventually, I recommend using escrow.com for the transfer. It protects you both from the other party backing out. They have a service specifically tailored to domain sales.

You pay escrow.com for the domain, not the owner directly.

Escrow.com notifies the domain owner that they have his money, and he can now transfer the domain to you knowing you're not going to run without paying.

Escrow.com will only release your money after they verify the WHOIS data reflects the transfer to your ownership.

If he didn't really transfer the domain, he doesn't get your money, and escrow.com will return your money. If you do have ownership of the domain, escrow.com already has your money and won't give it back without going through a binding, mediated dispute process.

</comment><comment><USER8> I always contact people with the same line, from a email address I make up on the spot (so they cant google me and end up asking for pie in the sky prices)

"Hi, I have a idea for a website I want to make with some friends and your domain looks to fit the part- How much would you want for it?"

Really defuses the high price thing and usually ends up with them asking for something under 500 bucks

ymmv

</comment><comment><USER9> I used to work in the domain business for Google.

Professional parkers value a domain based on its current traffic and ad ctr.

"Premium" domains - whole word .com domains generally have the highest value because 1) users sometimes type them into the address bar, 2) they have a better chance of ending up in organic search results and 3) there is usually clear ad targeting for users who visit the site (leading to a higher ad ctr).

If the domain is exclusively parked, one way to get a very rough estimate of the traffic is to use a keyword search tool. Look at the search volume for keywords in the domain and use that as a measure of how valuable it is.

</comment><comment><USER10> It is my understanding that ICANN will turn over domain names where intellectual property or trademarks are concerned. What prevents you from simply registering the appropriate trademarks and (supposedly) getting the domain for "free"?

<comment><USER11> There are so many things wrong with your answer and attitude, I don't even know where to begin.

Way to be a dick.

<comment><USER10> I think you misread my tone... I was not answering the OP, I was asking a general question to the rest of HN.

All I asked for was validation or non-validation on the method I mentioned. Is it true or not?

<comment><USER11> In that case, I will concede you might not be a dick ;)

I'm sure they'd look at trademark filing dates, just like prior art is a factor in patent applications. If this approach were possible, I bet someone would have already tried it, and that hole plugged.

<comment><USER12> Actually, that seems to be just what Groupon did. <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1547943>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> You should check out a domain auction site like Sedo.com to see if you can find similar domains and what they are selling for.

<comment><USER14> remember: "being offered for" != "selling for"</comment></comment>


US patent office rejects claims of Apple 'pinch to zoom' patent - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcworld.com/article/2045461/us-patent-office-rejects-claims-of-apple-pinch-to-zoom-patent.html <comment><USER2> Pinch to zoom absolutely should have been rejected.

Watch the 2002 movie _Minority Report_ for what I consider prior art on the 2007 patent filing at [http://www.google.com/patents/US7844915](http://www.google.com/patents/US7844915).

<comment><USER3> I don't understand that reasoning. If that's valid prior art, then patents for functioning time machines won't hold up either.

I think you'd have a point if it pertained to a design patent. If some movie used a tablet that looked exactly like an iPad, 10 years before Apple produced it, then surely Apple's design patent for it would be worth zilch. However, the pinch-to-zoom patent describes an implementation in minute detail.

IANAL though, perhaps someone with proper credentials will be so kind to enlighten us.

<comment><USER4> Patents are supposed to be on mechanisms, not effects. If you figure out a way to travel through time, your patent only applies to that particular way. Pinch to zoom is something with almost no behind-the-scenes mechanism to it, and what mechanism might be valid for a patent existed in the movie.

<comment><USER2> I could post my own explanation of why I said what I said, but it would merely be this one, more poorly worded. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Pinch to zoom has become such a standard in interface interaction that I didn't question it until switching to google's map app on the iPhone. Their double click and drag behaviour is superior in that you don't need two hands.

You know something is wrong with your UI when users sometimes resort to putting their nose on the screen of their phone.

<comment><USER6> Problem with Google Maps' iPhone implementation (double-tap, then slide) is that it's unintuitive.

Source: I didn't know it existed before now. (It's awesome btw, thanks!)

<comment><USER7> I doubt pinch to zoom falls in that category then. The vast majority of innovative (or unique) touch based interactions/gestures have to be learnt and cannot be intuited. As you know, intuition just means your brain recognizes a pattern.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Interesting that it was rejected because of 7,724,242, by Danny Hillis and Bran Ferren. Both of them are "Senior Inventors" of Intellectual Ventures, the patent uber-troll company. I wonder if one of IV's shell companies is prosecuting '242?

<comment><USER9> Given Danny Hillis's history (per Wikipedia) isn't it possible that there is some legitimate R&D going on that is reasonable to protect?

I'm not really familiar with Intellectual Ventures but he has done some fascinating things in the past, Thinking Machines being a prime example.

<comment><USER8> I'm a long time fan of Danny's work and am disappointed in his affiliation with IV. I'd love to hear his side of the story. (I still have this fantasy that IV is an elaborate prank to demonstrate how awful the US patent system is, but at this point that'd be an awfully long con.)

Despite being a dangerous, destructive company, Intellectual Ventures has a lot of smart people associated with it. Myhrvold himself is no slouch and many of the folks who go to the infamous dinner parties with paralegals taking notes are interesting people.

Here's IV's marketing on some of their "inventors": [http://www.intellectualventures.com/index.php/inventor- netwo...](http://www.intellectualventures.com/index.php/inventor- network/inventor-spotlights) [http://www.intellectualventures.com/index.php/inventor- netwo...](http://www.intellectualventures.com/index.php/inventor- network/senior-inventors)

<comment><USER10> They are either convinced that they are doing good, or in it for the money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> But I presume the companies that have been paying royalties for half a decade won't get their money back.

<comment><USER12> I've long advocated for refund clauses in royalty settlement agreements, in the eventuality that the patent is invalidated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> We all saw "pinch to zoom" publicly demonstrated in that multi-touch Ted talk before the iPhone was unveiled.

I'm not sure why the "overscroll bounce" was rejected, as it was Apple's unique invention and not obvious.

<comment><USER14> "Overscroll" was rejected on multiple counts of obviousness and lacking in novelty, due to prior art [0].

[0] [http://www.fosspatents.com/2012/10/patent-office- tentatively...](http://www.fosspatents.com/2012/10/patent-office-tentatively- invalidates.html)

<comment><USER13> Sorry, but what specifically is the "prior art" being referenced?

<comment><USER14> Specifically...

 _The direction of scrolling through the list of items may be reversed in response to the scrolling intersecting a virtual boundary corresponding to a terminus of the list. The scrolling reversal may correspond to a damped motion. For example, during scrolling, a displayed portion of the list of items may appear to bounce off of a boundary of the window in the touch- sensitive display when a beginning or an end of the list of items is reached. The apparent bounce may correspond to a simulation of a viscous or elastic ball having momentum in a first direction striking an immovable and /or inelastic object, such as a wall. The subsequent motion of the ball may be damped, for example, by including a friction or dissipative term in the simulation. A parameter corresponding to the friction term in the simulation may be adjustable, allowing the ball to reach equilibrium in contact with the wall, i.e., the virtual boundary, or displaced from the wall._

\-- "Ording" (2005) U.S. Patent No. 7,786,975 [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph- Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7,786,975.PN.&OS=PN/7,786,975&RS=PN/7,786,975)

<comment><USER13> I'm confused. Bas Ording is the designer at Apple who invented it. Scott Forestall is also listed. I'd guess that all of the investors listed were Apple employees.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The HCI researcher Bill Buxton has a quite comprehensive run-down titled "Multi-Touch Systems that I Have Known and Loved ": [http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html](http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> my first reaction to this was "bah, software patents. I love living in the EU."

But, this got me thinking - it a patent about something like a touch interface (intrinsically linked to hardware, but where software is required) software or not?

This also works for double clicks, key repeat delay, and stuff like joysticks.

Once you've invented the mouse, can you then patent every way of clicking and shaking? similarly, following the touchscreen, can we then patent every conceivable way to tap/swipe/pinch it?

I want to say "no, all these patents are obvious and dumb," but the "software is mathematics" mantra really doesn't hold for these kind of fluffy, hands-on concepts.

hmm.

<comment><USER17> Software patents are not entirely avoided in the EU, just to be clear. Quoting a little from an essay I had to write, although "programs for computers" are excluded by Article 52 of the European Patent Convention (1963), inventions that include an inventive step and solve a technical problem by the utilisation of a computer program have been upheld on appeal, for example in the case of Microsoft Corporation (data transfer with expanded clipboard features. T 0469/03 - 3.5.01, [http://www.epo.org/law-practice/case-law- appeals/recent/t030...](http://www.epo.org/law-practice/case-law- appeals/recent/t030469eu1.html))

They might tell us that computer programs can't be patented, but their courts say otherwise - including states involved in the upcoming European Patent (for those unaware, currently EU states choose which European Patent Office patents to accept, the European Patent will synchronise all states except Spain and Italy). Actually the situation in Europe is quite similar to America - software isn't part of their patent legislation literature either; but such patents have been upheld repeatedly.

<comment><USER16> thank you for the clarification - I didn't know the detail of the situation!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I want to patent The Wave. You know, when you see someone you know, and you raise your arm with your palm facing out, moving your hand in a horizontal motion. Yea, that wave. No one has patented it yet, so I'm going to claim it.

<comment><USER19> This type of snark comes up whenever the patent system is discussed. However, isn't the fact that this would (presumably) not be approved an argument in their favour?

<comment><USER20> In a world where the USPTO approves such things as "Method of swinging on a swing" [1], I wouldn't take any bets on what they won't approve.

[1] [http://www.google.com/patents/US6368227](http://www.google.com/patents/US6368227)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Finally, The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office does their job correctly and rejects a ridiculous patent. Hopefully only one of many ambiguous patents denied in the coming months and years. Gestures should not be patentable whatsoever and Apple are deluded for thinking so. I guess when you have billions of cash at your disposal your imagination knows no bounds as to what you think you are entitled to.

</comment><comment><USER22> Apple are really patent sick.

<comment><USER23> Compared to what? They're no more patent sick than other companies, they just get reported on by the news more often.

Have a look at patents for car companies, you'd probably be shocked at how common this stuff is. Patent attorneys don't exist for just the tech world, they make money for a reason.

<comment><USER22> Compared to how normal tech company should behave. Luckily there are companies which are opposed to software patents. I'm sure there are other patent sick companies, but Apple is just an infamous one. May be it's more reported than others, but such reputation is deserved.

Patent attorneys don't participate in this on their own. It's from these companies' approval. In normal companies attorneys ensure that company uses patents only as defensive tools, in sick ones they use them for offense.

<comment><USER24> "Compared to how normal tech company should behave."

Shrug, Apple negotiates above board and pays Amazon tens of millions for one click (possibly bullshit). Apple negotiates above board and pays billions for walking all over Nokia's patents. Samsung walks all over Apple's design (according to Google lawyers) and Apple's (possibly bullshit) patents and Googlerola negotiates for a farcial 5%+ of revenue for one (possibly bullshit) standards patent and yet it's Apple who is the huge villain for going after them. Got it, Apple is supposed to write checks to other companies, never cash any and Google and friends get a lifetime free pass for infringement because they talk about being "open".

"We don't use patents offensively" tends to be propaganda from companies with bad patent portfolios.

<comment><USER22> _> Apple negotiates above board and pays Amazon tens of millions for one click (possibly bullshit)_

So? Amazon is also patent sick. As well as Nokia and other patent aggressors. Is that news? It's not an excuse for any of them.

"Good portfolio" does not include ridiculously idiotic patents like one click, round corners or anything like that. It doesn't even include any software patents at all.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Exploiting Windows 10 in a Local Network with WPAD/PAC and JScript - <AUTHOR> https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2017/12/apacolypse-now-exploiting-windows-10-in_18.html <comment><USER2> Just checked wpad.sk. According to who.is domain has been updated recently. One of listed organizations is ptstrustee.com, which is specializing in hiding real identity of real domain owners.

As expected they're serving [http://wpad.sk/wpad.dat](http://wpad.sk/wpad.dat). In that file there is reference to WPADblock.com project. But not sure if it's legit. Also in wpad.dat there are some regexps. If conditions are met it sets proxy-server to their server.

For me it's strange. Does anybody have experience from other tlds?

<comment><USER3> I just purchased a wpad.$TLD to see how much traffic it will get, i'll post back when dns updates.

<comment><USER3> 6092 requests in 3 hours. 73 unique ip addresses. Unique UserAgents: "WinHttp- Autoproxy-Service/5.1".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> We've known for quite awhile that WPAD/PAC is a problem and supporting it by default is even worse. Exploiting browsers via JavaScript:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vegxj5a1Rw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vegxj5a1Rw)

Rendering JavaScript and other bad things that are apparently still embargoed in the context of an HTTP 407 with WPAD/PAC being one vector to get in the middle:

[http://www.falseconnect.com/](http://www.falseconnect.com/)

</comment><comment><USER5> Heh, WPAD from a local network webserver was how I used to ad-block ~10 years ago. It was easy to make and set up, helped with ad-blocking in both browsers and hosted web views like game launchers, and allowed always proxying some sites through a SOCKS5 proxy.

IE never sent the full URL to FindProxyForURL, and around 2017-02 Chrome followed suit, so I had to migrate it to a Chrome extension. I still have the wpad.dat configured on the network in case something still reads it.

<comment><USER6> Yep, WPAD is extremely useful and it's just JavaScript with some extra functions [0]!

I've also used it to send *.company.com requests via local proxy to their servers and the rest via direct connections basically emulating split DNS without sending all traffic through their VPN.

[0]: [http://findproxyforurl.com/example-pac- file/](http://findproxyforurl.com/example-pac-file/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My reaction when the same thing keeps being a security problem...seriously, wasn't there a major WPAD/PAC issue earlier this year?

<comment><USER8> WPAD is a shitshow and has been for years.

It's impossible to troubleshoot and doesn't work well, but at the same time, it's the "best worst" solution for many LANs.

I think the right answer to this type of issue is autoconf, but that isn't widely adopted.

<comment><USER9> I'd love for there to be a better solution, because as you say it's the "best worst" solution in many cases.

<comment><USER8> There are better solutions, but they won't work everywhere. Transparent proxies come to mind.

<comment><USER9> Transparent proxies break horribly when you need to deal with HTTPS, and I'm not talking about "oh, you need to install the CA" because that's necessary for a configured proxy as well.

Chrome in particular breaks on any Google domain because they pin keys as a security measure, when using WPAD or manual system proxy settings it will happily connect.

And before someone says "don't intercept SSL", I've got Sophos XG deployed on my home network to do content filtering to keep my five year old from accidentally pulling up things she shouldn't online - she's not at an age where she gets unsupervised access to the computer, she can't type (or spell sometimes) properly, etc. but it lets me pull open Leapfrog Academy for her and know if she somehow managed to go to elsewhere by accident the chance of her running into age-inappropriate content is minimal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This begs the question: [https://superuser.com/q/1278277/41259](https://superuser.com/q/1278277/41259) how the heck do we disable this in the network stack?

<comment><USER11> Ctrl+F "In case you want to take action on your own" in the article.

<comment><USER10> I missed that! I didn't read the whole thing, it was too long and the article ends with things that do not work and somehow I presumed there's nothing that works, then.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Certera – A central validation server for Let's Encrypt certificates - <AUTHOR> https://docs.certera.io <comment><AUTHOR> Hi HN!

Certera is a central validation server for Let's Encrypt certificates. It's a cross platform, self-hosted web application. With Certera, you can centralize all of your LE certificates and keys, monitor certificates and receive notifications for cert changes and expirations. It will also help you stay within LE quota limits. Check out the docs for more details and screenshots. It's currently in beta as I'm looking for folks to start using and provide some feedback.

I created this because I had been using various ACME clients and occasionally a change here and there could cause things to break. Or, a cert would be on a system that I didn't know about and the cert would expire without anyone knowing about it. The biggest driver was making it simpler to use LE certs behind load balancers since Certera separates acquiring certificates and applying them. The idea is that you use Certera to acquire certificates, then use the API provided to retrieve the certs and keys to apply them. Currently, it only works with HTTP-01 validation (and redirects). I'm planning on adding DNS-01 validation and some hooks to make certificate automation much better when it comes to client certificates (i.e. rotating SSO certificates or certificates used for securing endpoints).

[https://certera.io](https://certera.io) (landing page) [https://docs.certera.io](https://docs.certera.io) (docs) [https://github.com/certera-io/certera](https://github.com/certera-io/certera) (code)

I struggled a lot with the licensing and settled on something that's not "open source"; it's source available. It is free for personal use, nonprofits and small organizations (< $1M in revenue). It's free for all during the beta. 10% of all revenue will be shared back to projects used to build Certera, the breakdown is in the docs.

Some principles I've tried to follow while building this: \- Perpetual license only. I'm kind of burned out with subscriptions. \- The least amount of Javascript I could get away with. There are no frameworks. All in all, less than 10 lines of plain vanilla JS.

Thanks for reading and let me know what you think!

</comment><comment><USER2> What backends do you support for secure artifact (certs and keys) storage?

<comment><AUTHOR> The certera web app will run on Windows and Linux. It can also be made to work for mac, but it's not yet compiled for that.

<comment><USER2> Sorry, I should've been more clear. Do you support AWS parameter store, Hashicorp Vault, and other secret storage systems versus keeping sensitive data locally on disk where your app is running?

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, apologies, I should have been able to figure that out. As it stands, it currently only stores on the machine where the app runs.

I have put thought into storing it into something like an HSM as I think that would only raise the confidence, trust and security of Certera. I have that written down as something to pursue in future versions!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


The tragedy of Eclipse.org - <AUTHOR> http://www.spearce.org/2010/02/the-tragedy-of-eclipse-org.html <comment><USER2> _> Yup, the iplog is a PDF file holding XML. The foundation is trying to move from an HTML based iplog to an XML based format. So we generated our iplog in XML, using code I wrote in JGit to mine the Git revision history. Someone told the legal team at the Eclipse Foundation that you can't edit a PDF, so they "freeze" the iplog by putting its contents in PDF. But they don't have an XSL to format it in human readable text, so we get this instead._

It's even worse than that! The PDF is titled "Microsoft Word - Document29" and has headings duplicating the name of the tag for each type: [https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.eclipse.org/eg...](https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.eclipse.org/egit/iplog/v0.7.0.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> [Disclaimer: I do not work for IBM, I do work for Rackspace, I have been in "the corporate world" for over a decade, I have used Eclipse as a developer and I'm currently helping get a project going around cloud deployment through the IDE]

The structure isn't just to make people's lives difficult. Is it going to be the perfect process for everything? -> probably not. Will it help keep the end user experience and quality high on the project? -> probably so.

Working at a place like IBM doesn't mean you want to "do evil" just like working for a small startup doesn't mean you're automagically out to only "do good". Take a real look at the amount of quality stuff IBM contributes to the OSS community: <http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource>

Another example, take a look at where your Linux kernel is coming from: <http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10288910-16.html> \-- More help from IBM.

<comment><USER2> _"I give permission for IBM, its customers, partners, and minions, to use JSLint for evil."_ [http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/video.php?v=crockford...](http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/video.php?v=crockford- json)

<comment><USER4> To be fair, that clause of the JSLint license is idiotic.

<comment><USER5> I think it's hilarious. Tomayto, tomahto.

<comment><USER4> "Idiotic" and "hilarious" are not necessarily disjoint. Putting "hilarious" clauses in a software license is not usually a productive policy.

<comment><USER6> It's what economists call "signaling." It tells people, "there's a human behind this, not just lawyers." (Your inner lawyer is probably preparing to retort, "lawyers are humans, too!" QED.)

<comment><USER4> Signaling is all well and good, but the _license text_ is a terrible the place to do it.

 _"there's a human behind this, not just lawyers."_

MIT/2-clause BSD isn't exactly pages of boilerplate legalese, either.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> cached: [http://220.127.116.11/search?q=cache:-Xe_P_DouNYJ:www.spearce...](http://22.214.171.124/search?q=cache:-Xe_P_DouNYJ:www.spearce.org/2010/02/the- tragedy-of-eclipse-org.html+the+tragedy+of+eclipse.org&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1)

</comment><comment><USER2> It's like everything distasteful about the Apache Foundation, but amplified a few orders of magnitude. Not surprising since the same corporate goons (IBM) are at the helm, except that this time around they're the founders and original contributors, not just filling a vacuum capitalizing on an existing project.

</comment><comment><USER7> Corps will never invest money in a software that they can't use, or worse can get sued millions for IP violation. IP validation is relevant, and it's probably a lot of work for the reviewers too. Software development isn't what it was in the sixties, and looking at the Eclipse worldwide use & acceptance, this process seems to pretty successful.

</comment><comment><USER8> One of his complaints is that discussions concerning the legal status of contributions takes place in private, rather than on the public mailing lists.

This seems quite reasonable to me. Discuss whether or not some piece of code infringes a patent, say, in a medium that leaves an easily searchable public record, and you are practically begging the patent owner to come ask you to license the patent.</comment>


IBM's Power Roadmap Extended by Chip Breakthrough - <AUTHOR> http://www.nextplatform.com/2015/07/09/ibms-power-roadmap-extended-by-chip-breakthrough/ <comment><USER2> This probably should have the publication date, July 2015, stuck in the title.</comment>


Girls rule(s) - <AUTHOR> https://judithcurry.com/2017/12/10/girls-rules/ <comment><USER2> At first glance I had judged it by the title to be a troll, until I read the article and understood it better.

In the 1950s and 1960s they had women in STEM that did good in math and science. Grace Hopper in the navy did outstanding work for example. She made it to Commodore which was changed to Rear Admiral to make her the first female Admiral.

Just like in that Trump video with a hot mike, men sometimes say locker room stuff they should not. In resteraunts in the kitchens are like that as well. We need to watch what we say to avoid offending people these days.

Yes there are legit and fake sexual harassment reports. Rolling stone did a fake story on campus rape for example. The fake reports hurt the women who file real reports.

I look forward to seeing more women and other genders get more into STEM studies.

Proper wear for a scientist usually a white lab jacket that covers up t-shirts and jeans. :)</comment>


Security Community Raises Money for Researcher Snubbed by Facebook Bounty - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/08/researcher-denied-facebook-bounty/?mbid=social10973184 <comment><USER3> Going to research it a bit to make sure he will get the funds and then I am also donating [http://www.gofundme.com/3znhjs](http://www.gofundme.com/3znhjs)

I am concerned "gofundme" will not be able to pay out to Palestine , I don't think paypal will work there and I don't even think USPS will deliver there? I know Israel will not allow Palestine to mail out internationally.

       update: they will NOT likely be able to pay out

[https://gofundme.zendesk.com/entries/22590777-Is-my- country-...](https://gofundme.zendesk.com/entries/22590777-Is-my-country- supported-)

[https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Getting- started/Palestin...](https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Getting- started/Palestinian-Territories/td-p/94355?profile.language=en-gb)

Palestine is not listed -> [https://www.paypal.com/worldwide/](https://www.paypal.com/worldwide/)

\----

Guy lives in a place with 22% unemployment and has not been able to work in two years.

Watch this interview if you have not already [http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/tech/social- media/zuckerberg-f...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/tech/social- media/zuckerberg-facebook-hack/)

<comment><USER4> Where there's a will, there's a way. They'll be able to get him the money - <USER2> just might not be through Paypal.

<comment><USER3> Yes, I realize (and encourage) that individuals will help him.

But I don't think gofundme will be able to pay out and therefore everyone's donations will have to be refunded.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hopefully BeyondTrust will use the opportunity to also train him in responsible disclosure.

Regardless of the response you get from a vendor, you don't make use of an exploit against a vulnerable target. That is the line that separates the good guys from the bad. Period.

Facebook has invested heavily in sandbox environments and automated generation of test accounts with test data explicitly for researchers to help demonstrate vulnerabilities. It is even mentioned many times on the page where you go to find the address to report issues to and learn about the bounty program.

<comment><USER6> In order of desirability, the methods of dealing with a discovered exploit are:

1\. Report to vendor and do not publicly discuss until they've fixed it

2\. Demonstrate the exploit in public to prove that it works

3\. Sell on the black market to Mafia/NSA/etc

The guy attempted approach (1), and didn't do a very good job of it, but it seems this was at least in part due to inexperience. Should he have worked more carefully to pursue option (1) first? Sure. But Facebook should have asked him for more information, perhaps pointing him to the guidelines.

So next he went to option (2). Facebook found the bug, and fixed it. Option (2) is infinitely better than option (3). I think Facebook should be extremely grateful to this guy - he even apologised for having to take this option in his post on MZ's wall, after (1) failed. Regardless of his & facebook's mistakes, they still should be thankful for him reporting it.

<comment><USER7> Option 2 is not "Post on real user's account", option 2 is "create account, use" or "use on established test account".

He was wrong, period, to post to a user's page. 100% wrong, and has no right to ask for the money, because of that. Facebook's response is exactly the correct response - fix the miscommunication, but remain firm in the denial of money to someone who broke clear rules.

<comment><USER8> > "create account, use"

You mean create a fake account? Isn't that against TOS?

> "use on established test account"

Where the instructions are in English, even after changing language?

> He was wrong, period, to post to a user's page

Mark Z. is not just any user. FB is publicly traded, yes, but he _is_ basically Facebook. It's not like he 'hacked into' someone's account.

<comment><USER9> The initial proof of concept post went to another user, not Mark Z. That was Facebook's basis for denying the claim.

<comment><USER8> You're right. Point withdrawn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> And he lives in Hebron in Palestine. How will they give him the money?

Answer: not easily. The financial blocks between that area and the rest of the world are just as real as the geopolitical ones. It will be impressive if they do it, short of a guy meeting him at a checkpoint and throwing an envelope to him.

<comment><USER7> Bitcoin's here, to save the day!

<comment><USER11> How will that solve the problem? Great, he'll have a wallet full of bitcoins. How many vendors in Palestine accept them as payment for goods & services?

<comment><USER12> He can still get online stuff with it. Online subscriptions. Video games. Pornography. Etc.

<comment><USER11> He could have been gifted online stuff anyway. Get an account, send him the password.

Bitcoins for these services add nothing other than some extra % costs when using them, and still don't solve the problem of getting physical goods where he is.

<comment><USER12> Don't you think it would be a bit weird to give the guy a subscription to Anal Magazine? Give him money, even if he can't get it physically, he can still use it online.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Language barrier or not as far as i know code is still written the same way. The least the Facebook guys could have done is ask for details not just reply this is not a bug.

And once you fix a bug reported by someone you don't get to deny their bounty. The best you can do is complain about the methods used to demonstrate it. You're not in a position to f __k with hackers we are ultimately the ones helping you.

We have something that is ultimately more valuable on the black market that Facebook are paying us so they should be handing out bonuses not stealing what we earned.

</comment><comment><USER14> I don't understand how someone _could_ discover a security exploit in the first place without breaching the Facebook ToS. Doesn't that give them a getout for anything that's reported to them?

<comment><USER15> facebook have a well-established program to allow anyone to look for security- related bugs. There are indeed terms and conditions associated with it however, including not interfering with real data/people.

<comment><USER16> Terms and conditions which are only available in English.

<comment><USER17> They're available in Arabic and many other languages as well: [https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms?locale=ar_AR](https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms?locale=ar_AR)

<comment><USER18> Those are not the whitehat terms at all.

But that doesn't matter since the argument was ridiculous in the first place. If you cannot understand or read rules, that doesn't meant they don't apply to you. Also, he _understands_ English very well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> nice. he made the world a safer place.

else {

       //Meanwhile somewhere in the black market

        $parent->postFacebook("I'll be early from work today and have lost my key. Leave the key in the flowers.");

        $child->postFacebook("Ok, no problemos.");
    }

<comment><USER20> He hadn't managed to actually impersonate another user, just post on someone's wall who hadn't friended him.

Personally, I wouldn't leave my keys in the flowers because a random person I didn't know posted it on my wall.

<comment><USER19> What if: the random person has a matching name and a photo? :D

<comment><USER21> Good one!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


[Possibly a warning] a dist-upgrade on debian sid might break glibc/yr system - <AUTHOR>

i just ~15:30 hrs utc dist-upgraded a debian sid box and it seems that it broke libc!
/bin/sh not executable and booting into rescue sys i was not able chroot into the system (/bin/sh: no such file or directory)
did anyone else run into this unfortunate situation?
for anyone else: be at least cautious when you dist-upgrade sid for the next couple of hours... <comment><USER2> mkdir /lib64

ln -s /lib/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2

This fixed it for me.</comment>