Ask PG: Are people getting more liberal with their downvotes? - <AUTHOR> I've noticed something that seems like a trend, namely an increased use of the downvote for comments that people mildly disagree with.  I pointed it out in this thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=214294).  I normally try to stay away from the downvote button as much as possible because it seems somewhat passive aggressive.  If I disagree with someone, I won't vote up.  If I really disagree with someone, I'll post a rejoinder comment.  I remain utterly convinced that the downvote killed reddit (that plus the influx of the /b/tards).<p>Has the use of the downvote increased since hacker news made it to techcrunch?  How about in the last 30 days? <comment><USER2> _"If I disagree with someone, I won't vote up. If I really disagree with someone, I'll post a rejoinder comment."_

I haven't been here very long but I've thought that expressing disagreement isn't the purpose of a downvote at all. Instead, it's meant to indicate that a post detracts from the discussion and probably shouldn't have been posted to begin with. Using downvotes to express disagreement would only result in discussions becoming more intellectually homogeneous, which would make the site much less valuable.

I'm not sure how the site can encourage people to use downvotes more appropriately, but I think that there is a higher risk of having trolls pollute the site than of downvotes deterring legitimate discussion (has anyone felt like leaving the site or not posting a comment because you feared that your perspective would get you down-modded? I'm not aware of such an instance but if it has happened to someone than that is a big problem that should be talked about).

<comment><USER3> As an example:

There was a post about the birthday of the user edw159. Some people thought that the post wasn't hacker "newsworthy" and others thought it was ok. I commented "I think edw159 is one of the more active members and recognizing his birthday is ok" and I was downvoted pretty far. I think my comment was appropriate and it added meaningfully to the conversation, but a lot of people downvoted it to (I assume) show their disagreement.

Now I'm worried before I post any comments, partly because I'm worried I'll lose my precious karma but mostly because it's embarrassing to have a negative number next to one of your comments.

<comment><USER4> Initially you may worry about karma (as I did too) but we have to realise it does not exist (and that it does not matter)!

I now appreciate down votes and see it as a way for the community to 'teach me' (not in a negative way par se but as a guiding/helping hand) in the simplest way possible.

:)

<comment><USER2> That brings up an interesting idea - karma is used to rank stories and comments, and make sure more interesting content is more visible. But the "game" aspect of karma (trying to make the top posters list, trying to appear a the top of threads) probably encourages some unhelpful behavior.

If users really shouldn't care about their karma, would the site be served better by not making karma visible at all, for users or for comments? You could keep upvotes and downvotes, and even let users know their own karma and how their own comments are rated (so they know when their contributions are being rewarded), but their would be no high-score table of top users, and users would only be able to guess at a post or a comments karma based on where it appears on the page.

This would take away the motivation some people have to contribute high- quality comments - I'm not sure whether the net result would be positive or negative.

Part of this discussion needs to include a serious discussion of what this site's core goals are. If this site were a web startup that needed to get high traffic, than a game-like system that gets posters addicted to writing comments to try and boost their karma makes sense. If the site is more about making sure it has the highest quality content possible for its original niche target audience, than that would make this approach less appropriate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The ratio of downvotes to up doesn't seem any different than it's always been. But because there are now more voters, the most downvoted comments get more total downvotes.

</comment><comment><USER6> A single up-down arrow system is fracked. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Are you recommending or dis-recommending? Can you tell the difference? Are you acting petty or noble? Do you like or dislike the poster? Did he/she take you to the cleaners the last time you disagreed online?

These systems do not promote healthy, honest, respectful discussion. They promote lock-step agreement with wherever the majority is going. Most people vote their emotions, not their head. With that in mind, the karma system is a system to enforce that overall you're going to say things people mostly agree with -- not that they find interesting or new.

This leads to a "me too" board, where there are pre-decided opinions on everything and posters struggle to pat each other on the back in new and interesting ways.

I exaggerate, but only to a point. As you can see on other boards, this is a real and deleterious condition. (Please insert John Stuart Mill's argument for the utility of listening to minority opinions here)

</comment><comment><USER7> I've been down-voting some comments because it seems like everyone is up- voting any old comment. It's ridiculous for someone's "I liked this article" type of comment to be up-voted.

I thought up-votes for something special, to be given out once in a while as a way of saying "your comment affected me in a deep way, thank you". If you give out up-vote willy-nilly then no one really cares about writing a thoughtful comment.

Here's an example of bad up-voting: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=213070> What the fuck's the point of the up-vote there? Does dangoldin really need to be up-voted 6 times to indicate that his comment was useful? Wouldn't 1 up-vote be enough?

Anyway, I need a coffee and it's just a number.

</comment><comment><USER8> I think if you give someone the option to downvote, there are always going to be people who do whatever they want with it. Telling someone not to downvote if they disgree with a well-presented argument is like telling someone not to post crap in the first place (or not to upvote crap, for that matter). Most will abide by the guidelines, but there's nothing you can do to stop the minority from misusing abusing it. Unfortunately, the wrong minority is enough to ruin the feature (or even the community, although I don't think that has happened here).

</comment><comment><USER9> The exact OPPOSITE trend is what I've noticed and am more worried about. Lately it seems there is an increasing number of inane posts being upvoted to the front page. Karma-bombing seemed more prevalent a while back when it was easier to do.

</comment><comment><USER10> I got downvoted for saying it's not proper etiquette to passive-aggressively downvote. I just chalk it up as one of those stupid things you come across every now and then and move on. There's other more important stuff to worry about.

<comment><USER11> What do you mean by "passive-aggressively" downvoting? Do you mean downvoting for disagreement with a subject? Because I agree: that's a poor use of downvoting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I've had my own encounters with the downmod problem (we all have) and I won't repeat them here in the interest of brevity. But here's a suggestion for handling it. Can't tell if it's pie-in-the-sky, so input's encouraged...

Most of us make it a habit to abide by the news.YC "guidelines," such as not changing the text of submitted headlines unless it's needed for clarification, and not adding comment signatures. And it's an easy thing to police because there's accountability. Case in point, I've only seen a signature once, and another user had pointed to the users' misstep by the time I noticed it.

But there's no accountability for downmodding. There really can't be, else you injure the chance for honest opinions from people afraid of the kickback. But what if there was a single line of text you needed to include with a downmod? Something short, like 25-40 characters, that explained your reason. The community would recognize anonymous feedback like "Trolling" and "Unnecessary personal attack" as reasonable motives for downmodding, and "Bad point" or "Stupid idea" as unreasonable.

It wouldn't eliminate the problem -- I don't think anything anonymous could -- but it might create some mechanism for policing indiscriminate downmods and encouraging fair use.

Of course where you'd display that information is another issue entirely...

<comment><USER13> _The community would recognize anonymous feedback like "Trolling" and "Unnecessary personal attack" as reasonable motives for downmodding, and "Bad point" or "Stupid idea" as unreasonable._

Most of my downvotes are on comments which don't fall into any of these categories -- they fall into the category of "not even wrong". In my view, a comment which isn't even logically coherent has no business being here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> After reading all of the comments, it seems clear that most of the community wants some sort of "downvote" mechanism to assure that comments and articles lacking quality do not reach the front page and do not "clog" up the HN community.

It also seems clear that HN wants to tweak the system so that it's fair, doesn't allow for people who simply disagree without just reason to downvote an article, and holds the integrity of the community.

I have to add that any system implemented has to be simple but effective (two sets of downvotes is not simple, for example).

So my suggestions:

\- Downvotes still exist to make sure articles and comments lacking quality, or are clearly karma-bombs designed to bring something to the front page. \- You can't downvote until you've gotten to understand the community. That means a minimum Karma limit, say 50, that signifies that you've contributed to HN enough to know the general rules of the community and some of the nuances that make HN what it is. You could also make it so you can't upvote or downvote after say, 25 karma. The number's arbitrary, the point is that you need to time to understand the community before you start downvoting items.

\- Karma count doesn't appear until there's -3 or +3. That eliminates initial biases and "peer pressure" voting for an article starting out. Not ideal, but could work.

\- Most of all, we must remember that, if a person is submitting quality, any downvotes they get for any reason is going to be balanced out by a greater amount of upvotes.

No system is perfect, but you need downvotes for quality control. Let those who have more connection to the community do that work if necessary.

</comment><comment><USER15> We had a similar conversation about down voting a few months back, I just can't find the thread anywhere. I do remember PG saying that he thought that it was okay to down vote something that you disagreed with as well as down vote non-quality comments.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'd say there's more downmodding only in that there's more modding in general. Far more 10+ point comments now than six months ago, as well as far more -10 point comments.

I only rarely see negative-karma comments that don't deserve it one way or another.

Furthermore, __penis __.

</comment><comment><USER17> And I say does it really matter in the grand scheme of things? So you got downvoted in a virtual community...my gosh the mind reels.

<comment><USER18> Ironic downmods are my least favorite thing in the world. _Let's downmod jamongkad just because he claims not to care about being downvoted!_

Is that funny to people, or something? I just don't get it.

<comment><USER19> Im a fan of the ironic downvote personally. Its hilarious if you have the right sense of humor. It makes me almost pee myself laughing.

I don't understand why we shouldn't be hacking the downvote system. This is supposed to be hacker news. Ironic downmods seem consistent with that thinking, as well as consistent with the tricksters hackers are supposed to be.

<comment><USER17> Agreed, I'm not really a liberal down voter (well if you add the fact that I down voted Wallflower for being a baby a few days ago), the gist of my original comment so to speak is how everybody goes all randy about getting downvoted and such. But yeah this is not Reddit and Digg we must practice a modicum of restraint when we feel we need to downvote on something. On an interesting side note my original comment garnered 2 points!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I just think people feel peer pressure to downvote when someone already has karma less than 1. Does anyone else think this is true?

<comment><USER21> How can there be peer pressure? It's totally anonymous.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Short answer: yes.

Long answer: it's just a changing user base. I won't elaborate in this comment though, just that's an article in and of itself.

</comment><comment><USER23> i agree this is happening, and that it's a problem.

i think the karma threshold for downvote ability should be raised to, say, 60. if you can stick around for that long, you're more likely to understand the community's values.

<comment><USER24> I still don't _always_ see the downvote... there is at least one other factor involved. not sure what it though.

<comment><USER23> once a comment reaches a certain age, you can't downvote it anymore. it's to prevent karma-bombing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Well, my version of Hacker News has no "down button". Is my browser broken?

<comment><USER26> You only have a downvote button if you've a certain amount of karma: I think 20.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Do you really care that much about your karma here? Just ignore it, it's just a number. It's not a video game.

Obviously, the most interesting, useful comments are often going to be controversial. In cases where people downvote stuff they don't like (which is a proxy for, does not fit my worldview), these comments will not get the most points. This means you shouldn't care too much about points except that they tell you where the conventional wisdom lies.

Personally I downvote something if I think it's dumb. Since there is more stupidity here now, it seems, there are more downvotes. That's good.

<comment><AUTHOR> Gun to head, yeah, I do care about karma. But I only care insofar as I respect the community who's voting.

The problem is that the indiscriminate downvote homogenizes discussion. The consensus opinion rises to the top. This is good when the group is good; bad when the group degrades.

<comment><USER27> you should care about the reasons behind votes, not the votes themselves.

<comment><USER28> How are you supposed to know the reasons behind the votes? Often times something of mine will get downvoted, and I'd like to address it, but I have no sense of what the problem is. I have to actively keep myself from deleting things that have received a quick negative response sometimes.

I have an idea: limit the number of downvotes per user per day. If the want to downvote something else, something will have to fall off the stack. I think there's less of a danger if people only downvote what they disagree _most_ with, as opposed to dismissal.

(ps: wow guys. real funny.)

<comment><USER29> Wow. Dani's comment was good, and she got downvoted just for fun. Not good guys. Things like this turn a good and serious site into something like reddit or digg, where there are no more intelligent conversations.

I don't like when my posts are downvoted, so I refrain downvoting people too, unless it is necessary. If I don't agree, I'd rather just voice my opinion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> i can testify that getting mass downmodding for saying something unpopular was common about 9 months ago. it seems the same to me now.

<comment><USER30> There is a general bias of HN and if you fall out of the range of that bias then you will for sure be downvoted. I believe that is because many of the users are very young and are not mature enough to value different ideals. You have to coddle them and not shake them up very much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> there is no downvote button for me on this site</comment>


Obama offers new gun control steps - <AUTHOR> http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-obama-offers-new-gun-control-steps

<comment><USER2> _One new policy will end a government practice that lets military weapons, sold or donated by the U.S. to allies, be reimported into the U.S. by private entities, where some may end up on the streets. The White House said the U.S. has approved 250,000 of those guns to be reimported since 2005; under the new policy, only museums and a few other entities like the government will be eligible to reimport military-grade firearms._

These guns are mostly (if not all) "curios and relics", largely uninteresting to anyone but collectors. They are not the kind that "end up on the streets". This is not an attempt to curb crime, but instead to curb a popular & harmless hobby enjoyed by people who are card-carrying good guys who have subjected themselves to intense background checks.

Little different from banning re-importation of US cars sold overseas on the grounds that a vanishingly small number _might_ be used as getaway cars in crimes.

 _The Obama administration is also proposing a federal rule to stop those who would be ineligible to pass a background check from skirting the law by registering a gun to a corporation or trust. The new rule would require people associated with those entities, like beneficiaries and trustees, to undergo the same type of fingerprint-based background checks as individuals if they want to register guns._

There is a category of _extremely_ tightly controlled weapons known as "NFA" or "Class III", which includes "sawed-off shotguns", "silencers", "disguised guns", and the very few remaining legal machineguns. To get one of these, one must pay a $200 tax, pass an intensive criminal background check, and have a local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) sign the paperwork. This last point is often problematic: despite full legality of the registered purchase, and unquestionable confirmation the buyer is not a criminal and has no criminal intent, many CLEOs nonetheless refuse to sign the paperwork and have no legal obligation to do so. To get around this refusal (amounting to anti-gun bigotry), buyers may (and this has been firmly established by government gun registration department BATFE) create a corporation or trust which legally buys and owns the weapon, available to officers thereof. Shutting down this imputed "loophole" serves absolutely no purpose but to crush the very small category of upstanding citizens who cannot get reasonable cooperation from local officials, citizens who purchase these arms for upstanding hobby or business purposes.

In doing so, the Obama is unilaterally moving to destroy a Constitutionally protected activity which is long allowed & regulated by legislation, activity which has no connection to crime.</comment>


Be careful when transferring from GoDaddy Not to get locked for 60 days - <AUTHOR>

Apparently it looks like there is a glitch on their website when you edit your domain information. In IE/Firefox when changing name/lastname a popup with 2 checkboxes comes up telling you that your are ok with 60 days domain lock if you change this information. In my Chrome those did not show up. I change name, and now its another 60 days to wait for the domain to be "available for transfer". Unfortunately, will have to pay for the domain for another year with GoDaddy.
Couple other points:
- this is not ICANN rule, this is GoDaddy own rule
- customer support, in this example will protect you (domain owner) from yourself in case you are a thief, and trying to steal a domain from yourself
- customer support cannot overwrite this rule.
- the highest you can go up is supervisor of the supervisor (floor manager). His name is "Joe" and he doesnt provide last name, doesnt have a badge, but rest assure "I am the only Joe working here". He cannot transfer you higher -- "thats not the way our organization has been setup". But you are more than welcome to call corporate.
I will wait 2 months, no biggie. But its just another reason to drop them and never come back. <comment><USER2> Right, this is a GoDaddy 'technical glitch'. I have a couple of domain names about to expire with them. I certainly will not be renewing with them or using them again for anything new. Their SOPA episode has left a bad taste...

</comment><comment><USER3> What an incredible farce, although such talk of this mystical 'Joe' intrigues me.</comment>


America proves too tough for hitchhiking robot - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/2/9087171/hitchbot-cross-country-trip-comes-to-unfortunate-end

<comment><USER2> "[the robot] relies on human kindness." Poor thing..</comment>


Stage 4 Pancreatic Cancer - <AUTHOR> Someone close to me was just diagnosed with stage 4 pancreatic cancer which extended to the liver.
Wondering if folks on HN might have references to some of the latest advances in the treatment of this troublesome kind of cancer.  An internet search yields lots of links but it is difficult to understand which are worth drilling down into.
Hoping people on HN with experience in the domain might be able to offer guidance.  The objective is to present her doctor with information she might not be aware of (can't assume everyone is up to date with the latest research, tools, trials, etc.).
Thanks. <comment><USER2> In cancer diagnosis, Stage Four indicates that the cancer has spread from the primary organ to other organs. There is no stage five.

With cancers of high mortality -- and pancreatic cancer is one -- quality of life is a usually a sound primary focus. Quality of life means different things to different people of course. For some people, the terrible side effects of highly aggressive treatments with debilitating surgeries and radical chemo-therapy are worth the price. For others, palliative treatments to lessen the worst symptoms of their disease allows them to be more present and whole during the time they have left.

Oncology is a job just like anything else. Some oncologists focus on patient care. Some on business. You can throw as much money as you got and then some on cutting your friend's body and dumping toxic chemicals into her blood just for the sake of "doing something" because there's an oncologist out there who wants a new dock for a new boat at their lake house.

Or you can find an oncologist who will do the best by your friend in good faith and provide an accurate prognosis based on hard to live with experience.

Even if that means you don't hear what you wished someone would say.

My beloved is a clinical social worker. Thirty years mostly in hospice and oncology. Our relationship has involved a lot sad conversations about the ways people die.

There's a spectrum between calmly surrounded by loved ones and confused, mutilated, and painfully stuffed with tubes.

It's not your choice.

Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, this is a sobering diagnosis. And it has spread to the liver, which likely means the prognosis is far worse.

I take your point about quality of life for what might remain. These are tough decisions those of us around her are going to have to make.

I have friends who have reported about acquaintances who beat pancreatic cancer diagnosis and went on to live twenty or thirty years. I suspect these were early onset rather than stage four.

This company seems to have had early success with metastatic pancreatic cancer. We've reached out to see what they have to say.

[https://nantkwest.com/nantkwest-and-immunitybio-to- initiate-...](https://nantkwest.com/nantkwest-and-immunitybio-to-initiate-a- phase-2-study-of-immunotherapy-for-metastatic-pancreatic-cancer/)

From the article:

"Pancreatic cancer kills an estimated 47,000 people annually; it is the fourth leading cause of cancer-related death in the U.S., and 57,600 new cases are expected in 2020. Less than 5% of these patients will live for more than five years after diagnosis, and the median survival prognosis is 5 to 8 months."

The end of that paragraph is quite sobering.

<comment><USER2> One thing I didn't cover is that "cancer" isn't one thing.

And neither is pancreatic cancer.

Steve Jobs had a rarer and less aggressive form.

That's why he lived with his diagnosis as long as he did.

His pancreatic cancer was a different pancreatic cancer from the most common pancreatic cancer.

The median survival rate for pancreatic cancer is low because it tends to be diagnosed late.

This is the case with your friend because the cancer is at stage four.

In terms of quality of life, seeking enrollment in a clinical trial involves a lot of meetings and paperwork and often travel.

Keep in mind that the driving force of the clinical trial you link is a business venture with a medical component.

The trial is randomized which means some enrollees won't get the treatment being tested.

In terms of anecdotal evidence of long survival, misdiagnosis is a real possibility as one goes further and further back, e.g. a person diagnosed in 1955 who lived to 1985.

I'm not sure why the patient can't make their own decisions, but I don't have all the facts.

I am sorry that you are dealing with this.

<comment><AUTHOR> > I'm not sure why the patient can't make their own decisions, but I don't > have all the facts.

She is older (85+) and not equipped to navigate the more complex aspects of this.

This is also where the quality of life part becomes far more significant. At this age...given the likely prospects...it might make more sense to go for quality of life and make good memories during whatever time might remain than anything else. These are difficult topics to discuss and even more difficult options to consider because it isn't all about making purely analytical decisions.

The current guidance is a six week course of chemo followed by an evaluation of outcomes to support further actions.

<comment><USER2> I talked with my beloved outlining what you've described. Nearly all stage four chemo-therapy is palliative. It is a tradeoff between symptoms of the disease and side-effects of the chemo chemicals. The advice was to try chemo and see how it goes, if the side-effects are too much then stop. There's no reason to complete a palliative treatment that's not palliative. The goal of the treatment is to reduce the tumor burden on the patient.

My advice from years of living with someone who helps people going through what you and those around you are going through:

1\. Bring in hospice as soon as the patient qualifies. Helping people through the dying process is what they do everyday. There's counseling for the patient, the care-givers, and other family members. Before during and after. There are also chaplin services. And of course nursing.

2\. Right now all the healthcare protocols are new and conservative due to Covid-19. Hospice will have the best grasp on what institutionalization of the patient will entail, how to navigate the new reality should institutionalization happen, and how best to avoid it under the current circumstances.

3\. There is unlikely to be a sudden shift in family dynamics in terms of relationships. If people have always been close, that's probably the way it will stay. If people have always been unhappy with each other, plans should presume that that's the way it will stay...this probably won't suddenly fix tense relationships.

There is an analytic view, but it is difficult to accept and feels rude to articulate. Yet, we all know that life only lasts not long enough. And making the most of the not long enough is entirely rational.

Again, I sorry you are going through this and hope it all goes as peacefully as it can.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I offer my sympathies because that is one of the most serious diagnoses one can possibly receive. :-(

I'm sure you, your friend, and her doctor know about

[https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Pancreatic+Cance...](https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=Pancreatic+Cancer+Stage+IV&term=&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=)

I think it was using this search that my stepmother successfully and relatively quickly got into a nearby trial for a different cancer, though unfortunately it didn't save her.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the link. Just starting to get into this so, no, I didn't know about this resource.

Yes, this is bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I am afraid solution for a cancer so serious as this (let's not forget Steve Jobs died of this inspite of arguably endless resources) is not in information search. She needs a good doctor aside from her oncology team.

I have lost a colleague who sat 6 ft away from me at work, and 6 months younger. The end comes pretty fast. My heartfelt sympathies.

There is one variant which can be cured. Jobs had that actually. If she got that and it did not metastise she may survive. It is her best hope.

</comment><comment><USER5> If you haven't seen this already you might wanna check out this article [https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512151941.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200512151941.htm) Good luck and hope your friend can recover fast!

<comment><AUTHOR> Will do. Looks interesting. Thanks.

A friend of mine, who was diagnosed with prostate cancer, went through a radical change of diet. This included juicing lots of vegetables and cutting out most meats.

He thinks the dietary adjustment played an important role in his cancer disappearing five years ago.</comment></comment>


QGrid: An interactive grid for sorting, filtering, and editing DataFrames - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/quantopian/qgrid <comment><USER2> That is gorgeous, great work! Just gave it a go in conda and it worked like a charm.

</comment><comment><USER3> FYI: there is a similar implementation of an table widget ("Interactive Tables") in BeakerX [1].

[1] [http://beakerx.com/](http://beakerx.com/)

<comment><USER4> do you have experience with both? what are the differences?</comment></comment>


Grab things like a Gecko: a new gripping system developed - <AUTHOR> http://www.tribonet.org/grab-things-like-gecko/ <comment><USER2> Quote from the paper:

> Conflict of interest statement: There will be a patent application on this > gripper design by the Max Planck innovation.

<comment><USER3> Sorry, I'm missing it. Is there something strange or remarkable about that statement?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm a rock climber, and my first thought was "when will climbing shoes start advertising 'Gecko feet' in addition to Vibram rubber?" (Well, there's a fine line between refining your tools and cheating, which that would probably cross, but I still thought it.)

Based on the article, this looks like a system designed for machines requiring precision gripping, rather than for human use (although I'm not sure if that's just the use envisioned, or if there's some inherent limitation). Oh, well!

</comment><comment> gene-h That's cool, but how many adhesion cycles does it last? One problem with these gecko-style adhesion systems is that eventually the hairs get clogged up with debris within a few cycles. This doesn't offer much advantage over regular sticky tape.

<comment><AUTHOR> Another system was also recently developed: [http://www.tribonet.org/cloning- geckos-toes-to-control-adhes...](http://www.tribonet.org/cloning-geckos-toes- to-control-adhesion-and-friction/). They created a durable mold to replicate the surface of the Gecko's toe. They claimed that silicon wafer could be moved around with these surfaces. This one maybe more durable, although the results are not that well reported.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> link to the study [http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/09/1620344114.full](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/09/1620344114.full)

<comment><USER5> Thanks!

Informative diagram: [http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/09/1620344114/F2.l...](http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/09/1620344114/F2.large.jpg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've been hearing about gecko feet adhesives since the 80s. I wonder why it's never been commercialized.

</comment><comment><USER7> Really neat tech. It would take a lot of trust to use it though. I don't see too many home or office applications, but it could be pretty useful in medical or industrial settings.

</comment><comment> xkcd-sucks Gecko-based adhesives have been reported for like a decade, are any of them commercially available yet?</comment>


Notes from Michael Feathers' "Brutal Refactoring" (2011) - <AUTHOR> https://www.thekua.com/atwork/2011/05/notes-from-michael-feathers-brutal-refactoring/ <comment><USER2> I wanted to second the bit on "rapid scratch refactoring", which I love. For me it's like making a quick sketch: I can explore an idea before committing to doing the work.

</comment><comment><USER3> The actual date is 2011. But from this I learned that Michael Feathers has a new book coming out by that title in October of this year. I guess that's going on my Christmas wishlist.</comment>


Hiring Managers what are your favorite websites/apps for finding people to hire? - <AUTHOR> What new apps are out there?
What do you use now? Is it any good?
What would you want to see in the future? <comment><USER2> Hired.com is really awesome. Check it out.

<comment><AUTHOR> What if I need to find a candidate in my geographic area within the next 2 days?</comment></comment>


Square's On-the-Go iPhone Credit Card Scanner Will Cost $1 - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/2010/02/square-iphone-scanner-1-dollar.php <comment><USER2> I don't get what Square understands that merchant account providers do not. There are tons of merchant account providers whose best interest is to give you an account, yet they still make you jump through all kinds of hoops to get one because fraud is so costly to them. (Chargebacks are expensive).

If it was profitable to make it easy to get a merchant account it seems that this market is developed enough that it would have figured it out by now.

Square makes it sound like they are effectively "merchant accounts for everyone" Makes me wonder what they have figured out on the fraud prevention side that nobody else has.

<comment><USER3> One possibility from the video (n.b. I had it muted): Requiring a photograph of the buyer, as well as their signature, might help quite a bit with fraud prevention...

<comment> jim-greer Sounded like you only get the picture if the buyer has a square account as well. Didn't seem to be required.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> "For just $1, anybody can have the functionality of a full blown credit card reader on their phone."

This will not end well.

<comment><USER5> Why? Anyone can already type in credit card number,ccv,etc by hand for zero dollars - surely it's not a disaster?

<comment><USER6> But without a hurdle-laden merchant account they can't process them.

<comment><USER7> From the video on the square site it seemed like person to person transactions are encouraged. I'm guessing turn around time for money transfers are going to be longer and maybe a secondary online approval process for some transactions for non-merchant accounts.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I really like the idea behind Square, but are customers really going to trust a dongle hanging out the end of someone's phone? Whats to stop someone reverse engineering the dongle and creating a spoofed client that just records the data instead of performing a charge?

<comment><USER9> Who cares? This is already a solved problem with credit card laws (the very limited liability you suffer by some random dude stealing the number)

<comment><USER10> But what about those that use debit cards. Not the same protection, and much more chance for harm.

<comment><USER9> I would say that's probably why you shouldn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> So then when I pay for my meal at dinner and the suspicious waiter pulls out their iPhone to swipe a $5 transaction I might never notice? Not that I'm especially bad at watching transactions, but I am sure that this could be a problem.

Edit: Not that I don't like this idea as a business invention, because it really does ease taking payments for service-based companies.

</comment><comment><USER12> Interesting perspective from American Banker. If anything, Square is shaking up the established market and getting established industry veterans working on true mobile payment.

> Beth Robertson, the director of payments research for Javelin Strategy and > Research of Pleasanton, Calif., said that if Square is able to allow > merchants and consumers to accept card payments without a conventional > merchant account, that may be a bigger selling point for the system than the > technology itself.

[http://www.google.com/gwt/x?oe=UTF-8&client=safari&q...](http://www.google.com/gwt/x?oe=UTF-8&client=safari&q=square+iPhone+%2B+PCI+compliance&hl=en&ei=9m57S7iRAouIgQei-4sH&ct=res&cd=iz&source=m&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americanbanker.com%2Fissues%2F174_233%2Ftwitter- vets-square-1004821-1.html)

> The app, as Kevin says, will even upload GPS information, so you can make > sure that payments are happening in the right place.

<comment><USER13> _allow merchants and consumers to accept card payments without a conventional merchant account_

Isn't that called PayPal? Square is PayPal, but on the iPhone; it doesn't seem hard to understand. And it's surprising that PayPal themselves missed this opportunity, given that they started on the Palm.

<comment><USER12> My understanding is that PayPal originally was intended to be that and now is the most sophisticated fraud detection and combatment system ever created.

> Just as Napster allowed people to directly share music online, PayPal > enables people to exchange money instantly without having to open expensive > merchant accounts to accept credit cards. Yet to Levchin's surprise, > advanced cryptography has had little to do with PayPal's success. Rather, > the company's rapid adoption by millions of small businesses and individuals > operating chiefly on Internet auction site eBay is largely credited to > Levchin's more recent obsession: developing financial surveillance software > that closely monitors PayPal's customers and almost instantly alerts both > the company and law enforcement officials to any suspicious account > activity. "We mine millions and millions of transactions in real time," > Levchin says.

<http://www.paypal.com/html/mit-1201.html>

<comment><USER14> > _now is the most sophisticated fraud detection and combatment system ever > created._

That's not saying much about fraud detection systems then. Seems like every other day there is some story about someone whose PayPal account was frozen without any chance for appeal or even a solid stated reason as to _why_ it was frozen.

<comment><USER15> A little bit of selection bias there: you don't read about all the valid transactions that go through, and all the fraudulent transations that get frozen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Traditional credit card processors are able to settle accounts daily. It remains to be seen if Square will offer a similar service. Many established merchants (especially restaurants) desire what is called "real-time billing" or getting cash in the bank once the card is swiped rather than waiting for payment to be deposited or settled.

The other problem is that Square accepts anyone. The reason its difficult to get a merchant account through other payment processors is because chargebacks ARE EXPENSIVE. (payment processors will not accept a merchant that is above a 2% chargeback rate). This means that Square will be susceptible to a larger amount of chargebacks (which means that most of their angel funding will likely be in an escrow account to protect against chargebacks).

Great idea but we'll see how these issues are handled.

</comment><comment><USER17> How is the reader powered? Their copy on the home page (as well as in the video) says:

"Read payment cards from any device with an audio input jack, including your mobile phone."

From the image on their page, the reader is using a 4-pole 3.5 mm plug, which might mean it's powered from the host device. If not, I guess it needs a coin cell which would have to be replacable unless the entire reader is disposable.

I searched for a pin-out of the headphone jack, and it seems the 4th pole is for the microphone which (of course!) is used to send the credit card data. Is their app playing some sound, thus allowing the reader to power itself from the audio outputs?

</comment><comment><USER18> Isn't this just Paypal? But instead of giving someone my email address to transfer funds, they have to get their dingle-whatsit out and I have to get my card out and mess around?

</comment><comment><USER19> I am interested in seeing how paypal will move into the mobile space. I think they have a great opportunity as more and more people use multi-media mobile handsets.

<comment><USER20> A while ago I bought gas and forgot my wallet. I had to call someone to come and pay for me.

If only I could have gone to a website on my phone and paid by paypal. Or phoned someone and asked them to go to a website and pay for me, and the cashier give me the receipt as it happens.

Guess that's as much down to the garage as paypal though, eh?

<comment><USER19> It would be cool if the attendant was there and he/she had a paypal merchant account to accept a payment there on the spot where you can log into your phone and send a 20 dollar payment (or whatever the amount) and the attendant will start up the gas machine for you. Paypal could make it so fluid that everyone will be compelled to sign up for at least the mobile app, even if not everyone uses it all the time. Just like everyone really should have a sign on for Skype, even though they might not use it on a daily basis

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Did anyone else notice that in this picture:

[http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/images/square_usage_feb10....](http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/images/square_usage_feb10.jpg)

The square device is on the wrong side of the iPhone? Shouldn't it be plugged in to the headphone jack?

<comment><USER22> That's an iPod touch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> $1 + 2.9% : "Square can afford to give away the dongles because they will be banking 2.9% of each transaction." Not so cheap.

<comment><USER24> What's the typical Visa and MasterCard vig these days? Isn't it around 2.5%?

<comment><USER25> Visa and Mastercard charge merchant account providers a set percentage (called interchange) and then the providers mark up from there. Interchange is different for every industry because of varying fraud and chargeback rates. Also consider the risk of card present versus card not present (or ecommerce). So I guess this is a long way of saying it depends. For card present situations like Square will always be, you can get an account under 2% if you are in a low risk industry and hammer your sales agent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The Youtube video says Square is available, but it isn't? How do I sign up?</comment>


How Y Combinator Started - <AUTHOR> http://ycombinator.com/start.html <comment><USER2> _So doing the winter batch in California seemed like one of those rare cases where the self-indulgent choice and the ambitious one were the same._

There is nothing more heavenly, more sublime than that rare situation in life in which the self-indulgent choice and the ambitious choice align. There's a keen insight to be had there.

Unfortunately, those moments are very rare.

For instance, at least, in terms of my personal temperament and disposition, I have found that I most enjoy life, from a "human" perspective, in places that are terrible places to do business, and may, in fact, have very dysfunctional local economies, high amount of corruption, etc. I'm the kind of person that has the most fun in the colour of Greece, Italy, southern Spain, Portugal, Argentina, etc. I can appreciate the comparative orderliness and clockwork of Teutonic and Anglo-American civilisation, but it doesn't make me happy, and yet I need that whole universe in order to sustain my livelihood in any practical sense. But everything else about it doesn't make me very happy.

I wish there were some way to reconcile those two. I haven't found any place that has an optimal intersection of cowbell on the one hand, and practicality on the other. Maybe it exists, but I haven't found it. However, my natural sense is that there is a inherent, perennial tension between the two.

That's why that particular phrase really got me. I wish dearly for such a Shangri-la.

<comment><USER3> Berlin?

<comment><USER4> Berlin makes a lot of noise about its startup culture, but it's vanishingly small. The winters are absolutely horrible. Also, the city is full of Germans.

(I've lived here for four years.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "If we'd had enough time to do what we wanted, Y Combinator would have been in Berkeley."

As a co-founder of Berkeley based company from YC S11 batch. Darn it! Berkeley would have been a great place to start YC. With Berkeley campus supplying a lot of CS students and the easy-going counter-culture that Berkeley provides (which gels well with counter-intuitive funding strategy of YC). It would have been great! Of course, the VCs would've to trek to Berkeley to attend demo days but that filters out the people who aren't serious. :)

<comment><USER6> I had the opposite reaction: "What good fortune that they didn't have enough time!" Not that Berkeley isn't great, but it isn't in the Valley. It's hard to imagine YC being quite as successful if it weren't right in the thick of things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I really enjoyed PGs post for the detailed description of the thought process behind the creation of YC and how they took those initial steps (including getting the funds together and deciding how to run it).

A lot of 'this is how I became successful' biographies seldom provide that level of detail. Whilst I still find them interesting, I found PGs writing to be more inspirational (to me anyway) because it's almost like a 'how-to' guide.

<comment><USER8> I echo that sentiment. :)

<comment><USER8> Heck, why would anyone down vote a comment which supported a nice comment by someone else? Go figure.

<comment><USER8> Now THAT down vote reflects a really vicious temperament!

<comment><USER9> The downvotes are because you are not adding to the core conversation. The community standard is that if you support a comment then up-vote it, and that's it. Additionally if you have something to say in response then write a comment.

<comment><USER8> Thanks. That's a decent explanation. :) I did read the Hacker News Guidelines but apparently not well enough. I definitely missed this: "Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." Apologies, all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> 'Cambridge Seed' sounds like a reality TV show about a sperm bank that only accepts donors from elite universities ;)

Congrats to everyone who has ever applied and the YC team! You have changed the rules of the game for the better...

</comment><comment><USER11> >If we'd had enough time to do what we wanted, Y Combinator would have been in Berkeley. That was our favorite part of the Bay Area. But we didn't have time to get a building in Berkeley.

I'm in Berkeley and quite like it here but that's also because I mostly avoid networking events. Berkeley's startup culture is a bit weird because the city is in some ways anti-software business. If YC were here, it would have been enough of a political force by now to have actually shifted the epicenter of Silicon Valley around enough for Berkeley to be taken more seriously as a place for startups.

</comment><comment><USER12> I was a junior in college (summer of 07) and been working a disillusioning summer job as an undergraduate CompSci researcher when I first read about YCombinator and Justin.tv.

Knowing that there was a place out there for entrepreneurial geeks like me helped tipped the scales for me; YCombinator plus Hacker News itself has made me feel like I am not alone in trying to make it as a geek-entrepreneur and I am glad for it.

YC + HackerNews has made the tech world feel like a smaller, more accessible place for me.

</comment><comment><USER13> Happy birthday YC & Co. Been a fan since it was publicly announced.

And not to take anything away from YC's effort but I find it rather amusing that first time some good hackers take their turn at improving the VC industry they transform it and become (arguably) the most successful investors in it.

I wish more people would try to improve the VC industry. There's at least a few YC-level waves that could occur. AngelList the best example.

<comment><USER14> what I wonder is if/when YC will start to take institutional money....that's what's going to take YC up to upper caliber of VC funds.

<comment><USER15> sequoia is already an investor

<comment><USER14> no, I meant like direct to institutions like pension funds.

why would a pension fund give money to Sequoia, and then have them give it to YC? that's an unnecessary management fee the pension funds have to pay

<comment><USER16> Because the pension funds want to invest such huge amounts of money that I suspect Y Combinator wouldn't know what to do with it.

If a pension fund wanted to invest $250m in YC, they'd have to scale up by so much I doubt it would work the same.

<comment><USER14> so are you saying there is an upper limit to entrepreneurship? I don't think so.

I wonder if pg has written anything about this, if there is some point of diminishing returns in the lean startup scene

<comment><USER17> I think there's an upper limit to the _quality_ of entrepreneurial mentorship you can give, mostly as a function of (1) the mentors and (2) the mentor- entrepreneur ratio. Right now, YC invests in roughly $20k/company * 60 companies/batch * 2 batches/year = $2.4M per year. If they were forced to invest 50-100x that in a year, it'd be really hard to find 50-100x more mentors on the same level as the existing ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Very happy read.

What this says me, and hopefully you is this: "that inconsequential thing you are staring today.. do not be so sure it is that inconsequential. Most of all just do it"

</comment><comment><USER19> "We realized early on that what we were doing could be national in scope and we didn't want a name that tied us to one place."

Personally I find that one of the most important reasons to think long and hard about a name. Most startups go through many pivot points until they finally get it right. Choosing a name that is overly representative of the present business model can lead to team lock-in that could spell the death of a company before it even gets going.

It seems a wiser decision is to go with a name that represents a startup's future ambitions instead of its present circumstances.

</comment><comment><USER20> _"But the founders in the first batch turned out to be surprisingly good. And great people too. "_

I'd love to read a "where are they now" post on the first couple batches of founders, along with some quotes from them.

<comment><USER21> Reddit - Acquired by Conde Nast.

Kiko - Acquired by Tucows, team founded Justin.tv

Loopt - Raised 15million in Series A and B financing, at it's peak was valued at $500m, sold for $40m to Green Dot

Simmery - Closed. Founder went back to uni.

Infogami - Merged with Reddit.

MemAmp - Never launched, one founder (Chris) joined reddit one (Zak) went back to uni.

FireCrawl - Never launched, team founded TextPayMe and got acquired by amazon.

ClickFacts - YC stake acquired by private investors because YC wasn't a good fit. Company still exists.

<comment><USER22> Wow, that's phenomenal. In 7 years, out of 8 companies there were 5 acquisitions (and a couple mergers). I'm sure any VC would be ecstatic to have that kind of success rate.

Reddit is the most prominent. It's had a huge impact although from what I understand it hasn't done extremely well financially.

<comment><USER23> "Wow, that's phenomenal."

That's quite a halo effect that has prevented you from seeing the true "success rate".

Where are you getting 5 acquisitions from?

Reddit, Loopt basically made out.

Infogami merged with Reddit. That's essentially a save face maneuver and doesn't exactly signal success.

Clickfacts - "YC stake acquired by private investors" doesn't sound like that would be a win but a break even. More like "take it off our hands".

Kiko - Sold in an ebay auction for 258,000.

<http://gigaom.com/2006/09/05/tucows-bought-kiko/>

<http://tucowsinc.com/news/2006/09/why-we-bought-kikocom/>

I'd give it 2.1 out of 8.

<comment><USER24> I don't know what Reddit sold for, but while Loopt's $40M was far down from its earlier $500M, it's still a hell of a lot more than the ~$300k valuation it would have had when YC invested in it.

<comment><USER17> Loopt raised $32M in funding [1], so a $40M exit is roughly scratch.

[1] <http://www.crunchbase.com/company/loopt>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> It's amazing to see the humble roots of YC and what it has grown into now. As a person who made it through 2/3 of the previous batch I can honestly say there is no other experience like it and solely the intelligence of the people you are placed in the same room as week in and week out is enough for you to be at least as ambitious as the founders of YC were. Quit your job, make the leap, build something great.

<comment><USER26> I'd love to read your story on how you only made it through 2/3, and not the whole YC session.

<comment><USER25> you probably wouldn't honestly. just a simple founder dispute which lead to me leaving, nothing too eventful there

<comment><USER26> _Au contraire_ , founder disputes are something very few entrepreneurs write about, especially YC-caliber entrepreneurs; and yet anecdotally, they happen rather frequently. I stand by my assertion that writing a blog post about it would be good; please consider doing so, _especially_ if you have insight on how to avoid or prevent it from happening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> _It's hard for people to realize now how inconsequential YC seemed at the time. I can't blame people who didn't take us seriously, because we ourselves didn't take that first summer program seriously in the very beginning._

I attended the "How to Start a Startup" talk in 2005. I remember going home and reading pg's website, the whole thing, cover-to-cover. Later that year I met Steve Wozniak at the first Startup School held in Cambridge. Woz, Chris Sacca and pg left a lasting impression on me. I had never witnessed that level of information density and knowledge sharing. Amazing to look back at those humble beginnings. Always grateful for YC and the HN community.

</comment><comment><USER28> One of the things that I noticed is how YC's opinion regarding patents has evolved since its founding.

>" _If you're accepted, we'll deal with the paperwork for you. We'll incorporate you, get you a corporate bank account, supply simple, generic employment agreements for you to use, and so on. We can give some advice about patents, though you don't have to deal with that in the earliest stages; you have a year after making a discovery to file a US patent application for it._ " [<http://ycombinator.com/old/sfp.html>]

However, the best part of the story was the I'm-quitting-my-job smile.

<comment><USER29> As he wrote this, PG asked me if I remembered the chronology of certain things and it was very hard. So much is blurred together in my mind. But I remember the night we decided to start YC and this photo.

It wasn't just happiness that I was quitting my job. I was also so excited about this idea and the opportunity to work on something that could make a difference in the world.

<comment><USER28> It shows and I wasn't intending to trivialize what I know was a complex decision. [edit] There's nothing quite like the person one loves confirming that it truly is for better or worse.[/edit]

Congratulations on a job well done.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> First, I wanted to say Happy 7th birthday to Y Combinator. So, happy birthday! Before I even knew there was a Y Combinator, I began learning of innovative companies such as Stripe that I could get excited about implementing in building the platforms for my own businesses. Scribd was a helpful resource for me while working to finish my MBA as well. After applying, I learned that both of these companies were Y Combinator alumni. A real benefit of the process for me has been gaining an awareness of more companies like these. Y Combinator has helped facilitate a cooler world. Thanks for that.

</comment><comment><USER31> If you are interested in those early years, there is also some video footage of that first class (and interview with PG) in Aardvarked, the Joel Spolsky video made that same summer: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRL7YsXjSg&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRL7YsXjSg&feature=player_detailpage#t=2941s)

</comment><comment><USER32> SOmetimes, opportunity meets preparation, or so the saying goes. When things fall into place and fit, usualy great things emerge. And that happy smile, even it would have been only for that moment and one summer batch, I think most people involved it would have ben worth it. Happy birthday and continue on like you do!

</comment><comment><USER33> Fantastic read. It's really interesting to hear about how Y Combinator started much like a startup itself. Today we take YC for granted, but 7 years ago that concept must have been extremely novel and easily dismissed. It's hard for me to imagine the modern tech world without YC, though.

</comment><comment><USER34> Speaking of good ideas, does anyone know a good way to save/record an idea? I always think of one at the most inopportune time and by the time I have a chance to write it down I forget parts of it. Is there an app or service to help me?

<comment><USER35> A notebook?

No seriously get one of those tiny (1/3 A5) ones which fit in any pocket, then all you have to do is remember a pen!

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Happy birthday YC! It's awesome that YC is as scrappy and as startup-minded as the hackers they fund. They stick to their roots. They talk the talk _and_ walk the walk.

now pg, please put some left and right padding on those static pages =]

</comment><comment><USER37> Interesting how YCs very first web-statement in 2005 remaines true and current.

[http://web.archive.org/web/20050324062234/http://ycombinator...](http://web.archive.org/web/20050324062234/http://ycombinator.com/)

<comment><USER38> Wow, thanks for that link. That was before we even had a logo. I should go see if we have that file somewhere.

<comment><USER37> My pleasure PG.

Wayback is instructive for founders. If ever you doubt the value of what you're doing, and fight desires to hold fire and perfect more features, the wayback machine is a great reminder that those companies that succeeded started somewhere less than minimal too, and executed on from there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> "Initially we didn't have what turned out to be the most important idea: funding startups synchronously, instead of asynchronously as it had always been done before. Or rather we had the idea, but we didn't realize its significance. We decided very early that the first thing we'd do would be to fund a bunch of startups over the coming summer."

I wonder what the best batch size is: each cohort seems to be larger than the last. When does it makes sense to do three, four, or six a year as smaller batches.

</comment><comment><USER40> Thank you, Pail and co. You're doing great things not only for those who apply and join YC-family but for the startup community all over the world. The great thing is that you've found something that helped you to become more rich and to help the humanity (at least its geek part :)) in some way.

</comment><comment><USER41> Through the "rabbit hole" effect I read pg's start.html page.. some great insight which has given me more confidence with my own endeavour. Thankyou.

</comment><comment><USER42> Great read, amazing to see what YC has grown to in 7 years and how it has shaped tech startup investing.

</comment><comment><USER43> What companies emerged from first batch? Can anyone tell and their cofounders name?

</comment><comment><USER44> That's such an encouraging read.

<comment><USER45> Yeah, the story is absolutely inspring. I will copy this in China! Money does not go against freedom, money is part of our freedom.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> pg: thank you for sharing this.

<comment><USER8> Many thanks from me too!

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Hurrah! War is Over! Upvote to the Googolth degree! To be brutally honest, it concerns me that dissent on HN is not welcome.</comment>


A Legal Deep Dive on Mexico's Disastrous New Copyright Law - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/07/legal-deep-dive-mexicos-disastrous-new-copyright-law <comment><USER2> Sometimes I feel like it's only a matter of time laws in this area take an unfortunate turn for the worst in many other countries (US obviously being one of the biggest). Every time we fight tooth-and-claw to get a terrible act from passing, a new one pops up a few months later.

<comment><USER3> It's because we're fighting the symptoms, not the disease. Behind each of these proposed law reforms are the same private actors that try to make their business models legally protected, to use the might of the state to force people - both would-be competitors and regular citizens - to play by incumbent rules.

Beyond protesting every single one of these bullshit copyright "reforms", we need to start hacking closer to the root of the problem. That includes limiting the ability of corporate entities to dictate - or even propose - policies, and - in my personal opinion - burning down the whole concept of "intellectual property" and building it back up, in a form that serves the betterment of society instead of just the rent seekers.

<comment><USER4>
       It's because we're fighting the symptoms, not the disease.

First you state this, then you state this:

       Behind each of these proposed law reforms are the same private actors that try to make their business models legally protected

The _disease_ are politicians willing to create laws that do not serve the public. If they didn't exist, private actors would have no leg to stand on.

That's the disease. NOT the private actors.

<comment><USER5> > The disease are politicians willing to create laws that do not serve the > public. If they didn't exist, private actors would have no leg to stand on. > That's the disease. NOT the private actors.

I think you're still describing the symptom. These politicians are also "actors", part of a system. It's not that there are too many bad politicians and not enough good ones.

It's the socio-political system which is designed so that companies and people who own large amounts of money - capitalists if you will - have much more influence on the political process than most people, individually and even combined.

However, when we generalize to this level - it becomes exceedingly difficult to attack the root cause rather than the symptoms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Many laws in Mexico are not enforced. I'd be very surprised if these copyright laws were.

It's extremely common to find street vendors selling pirated movies, software, etc, with absolute impunity. I'm not referring to guys with a backpack selling DVDs or USBs in the Mexico City metro, but entire street blocks full of permanent markets.

If you're ever in Mexico City go to the MEAVE market a couple of minutes from the Latino Tower (also called "la plaza de la tecnología"). It's a huge labyrinthian cyberpunk market of pirated, software, hardware, second hand devices, phone repairs, etc.

<comment><USER7> Be aware that a lot of that business is ultimately controlled by the drug cartels.

<comment><USER8> So are avocados

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I respect the EFF, they do have their own ideology that makes them not necessarily able to give an objective summary of the law. Is there another account of what the Mexican copyright law does anywhere?

<comment><USER10> As just one example of the EFF's many nonsensical ideology-driven arguments, the EFF claims that the DCMA is an "unconstitutional" law because it enshrines the right of an IP holder to utilize digital copy protection mechanisms...Ignoring that copyright law is one of the few areas of law that the U.S. constitution specifically empowers Congress to legislate (Art I, sec 8 cl 8).

It's silly stuff like this that keeps the EFF on the fringes of tech law instead of being at the forefront. (It's also disconcerting that they claim credit for legal outcomes that were achieved by others.)

<comment><USER11> In a just society, a creator would be forced to choose between self- enforcement of copyright through DRM, or judicial enforcement through conventional means. Not both.

With DRM, the party on one side of the copyright bargain retains all of the spoils, for all time, at the other side's expense. That's all well and good, but the copyright holder shouldn't subsequently be able to use the law to enforce their unlimited terms.

<comment><USER10> In a just society, a creator _wouldn 't have to make that decision at all._

It's truly fucked up that privileged people feel like they can decide how _other people_ should earn their living just so that they can avoid spending a few bucks.

 _With DRM, the party on one side of the copyright bargain retains all of the spoils, for all time, at the other side 's expense._

This is not true. It is only illegal to crack DRM of copyright-protected works. Once a work falls out of copyright, it's fully legal to crack any DRM. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201)

<comment><USER11> _This is not true. It is only illegal to crack DRM of copyright-protected works. Once a work falls out of copyright, it 's fully legal to crack any DRM._

Sure, it's legal, but to the extent it's not already impossible for consumers to take advantage of that provision, it will be soon enough. There is no law against deploying cryptographically-sound DRM that would require the resources of a Kardashev Type III civilization to crack.

And that's the problem. If you rely on such measures, you should _at least_ be required to deposit an unprotected copy of the work in escrow for open release when the copyright term expires.

Additionally, the law casually conflates access to a work with the ability to copy it. Now that everything is moving to the cloud, DRM can block both, potentially forever. That's a one-sided bargain if there ever was one. Talk about "privilege!" The use of DRM on copyrighted works amounts to taking from the public domain without compensation. It should be prohibited by law, not protected by it.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Script to automate installation steps. Inst packages on different OS - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Cyclenerd/postinstall <comment><AUTHOR> I have built a Bash Script to automate post-installation steps. It helps to install packages on different operating systems. Feedback and pull request welcome.</comment>


What things didn't you know you needed but are now very glad you have? - <AUTHOR> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/203286/what-things-didnt-you-know-you-needed-but-are-now-very-glad-you-have/203398#203398

<comment><USER2> Is there a reason you've lunk to a comment in the middle, rather than to the question itself?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, It was by mistake</comment></comment>


CS103F: Ethical Foundations of Computer Science - <AUTHOR> https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~ans/classes/cs109/syllabus.html <comment><USER2> If HN comments are a fair representation of software developers then a course like this is essential. I am frequently astonished at how many software developers are so hopelessly lost on such basic understandings of ethics in such an immediately and direct way.

<comment><AUTHOR> We studied so deep we forgot basic human values.</comment></comment>


TOP 7 Web Design Companies which Get Stuff Done - <AUTHOR> http://blog.trackduck.com/2014/07/30/top-7-web-design-companies-get-stuff-done/#more-2791

<comment><USER2> TrackDuck - a nice tool for communication. Love the companies!</comment>


The rise and fall of the Dungeon Master - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@ziobrando/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-dungeon-master-c2d511eed12f#.lcmyqh71b <comment><USER2> I believe I have really talented "dungeon masters" in my team. When discussing new technology to adopt or refactors, you need their input but I am never sure it there are raising valid points or if there are subconsciously defending their dungeon.

We all have our biases, myself included, maybe by wanting something new and shiny, I just want to become the next dungeon master.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm ambivalent with this article, too. I consider almost valid all the points listed in the post, but I think also that having a "Dungeon Master" can be helpful a lot.

Probably, the greater risk to me is to have a master as a chief, not paired with another person in the same role with a different (less legacy-based) point of view.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you escape Google? - <AUTHOR> Appreciated HN Community,
I, naively, really had hope on the Don't be Evil motto. But the Google's trend of invading our privacy a bit more every day without asking at all for our permission, tracking absolutely everything, I think it's getting too far. Their open support to TTP has felt like a slap in the face of awakening reality. Their presumed support Hillary also concerns me quite a bit.
As a techie, I admire a lot of their work (I may be easy audience, but Google Maps really flips me out), but I think we should worry about limits in the name of progress. I wouldn't mind to give some
personal data away to enjoy some of their services, but I want to know and decide which data I give away. I have recently checked myactivity.google.com and what I saw there was quite terrifying.
I'm aware how highly I depend on their services. I have an Android phone,
Gmail as my main email account, organise myself with Google Calendar,
I browse the web with Chrome, solve every question with Google Search,
and get directions with Google Maps.
Since my unconditional love for the company has clearly been damaged I think it's time to start looking for alternative services.
I have replaced Google Search with Duckduckgo. That was easy. It feels a bit slower, and I still miss how google suggestions know what I want before I type it, but it could work. Fully replacing Gmail is going to take a while, but I
think Protonmail is a nice alternative. I don't mind paying the yearly
subscription if I'm still happy with it when the space limit becomes a problem.
I have come back to Firefox even though some things feel smoother on Chrome,
which I haven't totally abandoned. A work in progress.
The thing is, what about Android, is there any solution you would recommend? (Apple products are not an option) And to Google Maps? How do you guys manage
the balance privacy/usability/comfort? <comment><USER2> It's all too late.

If you are already depending on Google for email, contacts, map services, identification services(Google Plus login, Google Identity platform), then it is very hard to change the status quo. One problem is the compatibility/migration, another is lack of quality open-source/private solutions. Google gives you everything free so you wouldn't want to migrate to a paid service.

As an experiment, I tried de-activating my Facebook account, and I was surprised to realize that I am also losing half of my contacts (on Facebook Messager) and half of my music collection (on Spotify, with Facebook sign-in, which cannot be transferred to an email-only account).

I wrote a blog post on this issue and how to avoid being dependent, but the alternatives would not be applicable to Google products:

[https://paradite.com/2016/02/18/stay-independent-problems- wi...](https://paradite.com/2016/02/18/stay-independent-problems-with- dependencies/)

<comment><USER3> Funny how you tell people to become independent from services, then go ahead and advise techies to set up their own cloud on VPS.

<comment><USER4> You have to read it as "independent from _specific_ services". The scripts configuring my VPS don't care what provider provides the VM below it. Keep a current backup in independent places and you can get your full set of services back up quickly. But of course it is overall more work, not always the same feature set (good and bad), ...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I use no Google products personally. I use them for work sometimes but I am okay with that. Here goes:

\- Browser: Firefox

\- Search: DDG

\- Email: Outlook

\- Phone: Blackberry Q10

\- Maps: OpenStreetMap

\- Reviews: Yelp

\- Calendar: Blackberry Cal

Most "techies" would consider this stack unacceptable. I like physical keyboards and Windows, so it works for me. YMMV, but I do not miss Google.

<comment><USER6> Why do you hate Google?

<comment><USER7> I have a colleague whose anger over Google Reader is so strong that he hasn't used any Google service since, and blocks goog ip ranges to prevent accidental usage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > But the Google's trend of invading our privacy a bit more every day without > asking at all for our permission, tracking absolutely everything

Explain more.

</comment><comment><USER9> One thing worked for me is compartmentalizing Yes google services are too good to be replaceable . Have multiple profiles (one hardened privacy aware other is your existing profile )for browsers,OS,Computers , phones ,mails,messenger apps.Each profile disconnected from other (use different internet pipes)so that ads will target you make a profile of you but both are not interlinked . Its a bit of taxing for initial setup once its there then things will be smooth . I have what I call "privacy traps" like sharing random emails/phone number to a service and see how/where it follows you.This will help you to profile what are the query terms,PII info for these services to build a profile of yours etc ..

</comment><comment><USER10> Looks like there's a market for Google-provided products with an emphasis on privacy...

I too switched to DDG several months ago for similar reasons, but I can't get away from Chrome's dev tools. Any privacy/performance conscious browsers out there that can compete with Chrome? FF wasn't great the last time I tried it.

</comment><comment><USER11> Use Tor Browser, Protonmail(or host it yourself), DDG(you can also search in google anonymized), buy a Blackphone([https://www.kickmobiles.com/blackphone-2-eu](https://www.kickmobiles.com/blackphone-2-eu))... calendar and so on you can import it to something self hosted.

Also use tor in your phone.

You can still use google maps and so on, unless your location REALLY MATTERS to you.

Google isn't the only problem.

Also get more people to use Tor. AFAIK, Tor now has less than 2mi people using it, if more people used it, it would be harder to find out who you are based on your location. Tell your mates, get everyone in your area to use it or live in a hip city.

It's not that impossible. If you try hard enough, you will have something that will work for 99.999% of the cases. We need more people doing that.

</comment><comment><USER12> To escape Google (and what Google now represents) we have to replace the WWW and arguably the Internet with something like I2P. Encryption and anonimity need to be baked into the protocol. You can't just run to another website to escape the panopticon.

</comment><comment><USER13> This is possible. For email, I now use Fastmail[0]; they've only been getting better these past few years and now even have native mobile apps. The web interface is effecient and very usable! The only things I really miss are (i) undo send and (i) the forgot-your-attachment reminder.

I use Fastmail also for calendar; it supports WebDAV and works very nicely for me on iOS.

For search, yeah, I use DDG as well but find I use !g quite often. Especially for non-English searches. I've heard StartPage[1] is also nice.

I still use Chrome as my main browser, but am looking for alternatives. Besides Safari, I've toyed with Links[2] and Min[3].

For directions, it's still mostly Google Maps although I sometimes use Apple Maps on iOS. I've been explorer Here Maps[4] and have been quite happy with them (especially because you can download entire cities, or even regions, for offline use, including search). For biking, Bike Citizens[5] and Citymapper[6] are also nice (if your city is supported).

I'm sure there are lots of OpenStreetMaps-based services I'm missing.

Edit: If you want to migrate your mail, you can use Google's data download tool[7] to first download everything and then import it into Fastmail or use Fastmail's import tool[8].

0: [https://www.fastmail.com/](https://www.fastmail.com/) 1: [https://www.startpage.com/](https://www.startpage.com/) 2: [https://links.twibright.com/](https://links.twibright.com/) 3: [https://minbrowser.github.io/min/](https://minbrowser.github.io/min/) 4: [https://maps.here.com/](https://maps.here.com/) 5: [http://www.bikecitizens.net/](http://www.bikecitizens.net/) 6: [https://citymapper.com/](https://citymapper.com/) 7: [https://www.google.com/settings/takeout](https://www.google.com/settings/takeout) 8: [https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/migratemail.html](https://www.fastmail.com/help/receive/migratemail.html)

</comment><comment><USER14> I recently got an analog paper agenda and deleted all my google calendar items. It's a weird but nice kind of relief...

</comment><comment><USER3> Not too long ago, I thought like you:

"Let's host my own physical server. Virtualize different servers for different services: web, mail, owncloud storage, torrentbox, flac streaming service to mobile and web client. Let's run Cyanogenmod without Google services on my old 2012 Nexus 7! Surely K-9 can do the job just as well as Gmail! What else would I need a tablet for? OpenStreetMap wooo! My own Calendar instance! Stuff like that."

Spent days architecting the bloody server thing.. Looking into security, virtualization, database isolation, shit like that.

However, I am 30, making a career change, sick and tired of pushing someone else's agenda 8 hours a day. I want to build my own ideas and share it with people. Maybe make a living off of what I make. Build a farm. When not working or studying, I'd rather strike the earth and take care of my vegetable garden, play with the cat, hike with the wife. This helps me to have a more full experience.

Your time is precious. That is the only thing you will never get back. Read the book Walden instead. The only thing the writer truly treasured was his time. Throw in some taoist and buddhist literature as well, might help. Those will teach you not to care for other people's games (big data, small implication). Be more aware of the psychology of manipulation, triggers and getting you to sign up/pay/subscribe. Mastering your own mind is more important than keeping your mail from automated google scripts. Do you eat well? Do you sit all day? Do you know what's in your food, water, air? How are your bad habits, smoking, procrastination, drinking or onania problems going to be solved?

Not by not using Google service, I tell you. When you die, your privacy will be of no concern to you. How you live hold greater value.

My current proposal is as follows:

1\. Care less. Not about security and privacy, but about Google following you. Pay more attention to what is keeping you from living A Better Life, however you define that. Do you have financial planning for retirement? Do you have a goal in life?

2\. Have a trusted person or lawyer to follow set instructions on deleting all your online presence when you die. Have them burn your diaries if you keep any. Keep in mind, many literary people asked loved ones to do this, who then proceeded to publish their letters and unfinished work anyway. Maybe have two people for this, unknowing of each other's responsibilities.

3\. Keep separate Google and Gmail accounts for your work life and your personal life. Employers should not be able to find you based on your work- related email address. Sometimes it's a hassle, but I manage them.

4\. Disable what data tracking you can, and avoid using services for which there is a feasible alternative. For me, Drive, Maps and Keep are just way too comfy, and the alternatives are either poor, take time to set up properly or are another SaaS solution. Consider proper backups, not simply using external drives that fail or can be stolen along with your PC or laptop. Secure, off- site, automated, possibly offline solutions. Can you do that? Should you? What do you win? What is the return on investment here?

5\. Also, if you wish, move to a country where data privacy laws are firm and governments to a large degree respect their citizens (Switzerland comes to mind).

</comment><comment><USER15> open map alternative:

[https://www.openstreetmap.org](https://www.openstreetmap.org)

<comment><USER16> On mobile I switched to [http://maps.me/en/home](http://maps.me/en/home) (based on OpenStreetMap data). Vector maps you can rotate, supports offline, free for Android and iOS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> tl-dr; Google provide out-of-the-box solutions and mostly are free of charge. If you (general you) don't have time/effort/willingness/knowledge to create own secured solutions then they own you. It's something like a deal with the devil (hereinafter only "the deal"). He (devil) will give you everything...you give him your soul = privacy/life. Sadly, I also sold my soul (to Google and Microsoft) and several times, but i am trying to rescue myself.

Long story short: Few years ago I had same intentions. Get rid of every "collecting personal information in an effort to provide better user experience". I performed online test what is visible about my PC from outside.[1] After test I disabled browser cookies, installed firewall, disabled all ports except of https, installed software IDS etc, used text-base web-browser - lynx [2]

Usage of internet was terrible. I wasn't able read or use almost anything from web. (I those time I didn't know HN nor Github). I spent hours and hours researching and configuring own infrastructure - mailbox, calendar. But i gave up since it wasn't sustainable in hours of normal working man with other hobbies than sit front of computer. After all of this struggles I used (and still am using) out-of-box solutions from Google. Microsoft and Google are on the same boat. They know everything about you (general you).

Sad is that you can use alternatives but it's pain in the butt and they know it. And they build on it. Sometimes I need to have things done and don't wanna tweak how to the simple things. And this is exactly time where they are offer "the deal". Last few weeks I am also thinking how to get rid of all collecting of sensitive data. You can create fake profile, but it doesn't matter. In days of machine learning they can create personality profile about you. And this scare me the most of all. Maybe 3rd party dont know your name, but they know you live there and there, you have 3 kids, blond wife, migraines, mid-class car - 1.6 tdi, you are xy politically oriented, love rock music, voted for abc.

So what is conclusion? - my favorite phrase - "It's not so easy my friend".

My Corp. services: Windows, Office 365, Linkedin, Google search, Gmail, Translate.google, Maps.google, Youtube, Android

My alternatives in (parallel) use: Firefox/Opera, Elementary OS, DDG, small business mailbox at local domain registrator, Open-office

Mostly thinking about getting rid of: Android, Gmail

My lessons learnt:

1\. Nowadays Internet usage of services from corps. like Google, Microsoft, Amazon is deal with the devil. Out of box solution mostly for free in exchange for your privacy.

2\. Usage of alternative is pain in butt, on the other hand it worth, at least if you wanna save your soul and don't let it be subject of 3rd parties business.

3\. Privacy is always questionable. Event they claim don't collect any sensitive data we can't be 100 % sure.

4\. Usage of alternative solution require open-mind and persistence

5\. Think what you really need and what is only crowd psychosis (everybody use it , i have to be the same). This require totally different mindset.

Resources:

[1] [http://ip-check.info/](http://ip-check.info/)

[2] [http://lynx.browser.org](http://lynx.browser.org)</comment>


Bjarne Stroustrup: Software Development for Infrastructure (2012) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://www.stroustrup.com/Software-for-infrastructure.pdf

<comment><AUTHOR> Another great paper on Stroustrup's website. If there was one salient point in his paper, it's "use types".</comment>