Ask HN:  How to start a VC bidding war (when two are already interested)? - <AUTHOR>

Hi all-
A good friend approached me with this problem and I didn't have a good answer. I figured you guys would have some perspective.  His company is raising a seed round.  He is currently in talks with a few VC's and has had strong interest from two (like talking finance, mentions of term sheets, etc.).  Recently he was told to get out there and start pitching to other VC's and use the current situation for leverage both ways.  So three questions:
1) Is this indeed the best course of action?
2) How should one pitch these "new" VC's without sounding like a total dbag?
3) Any other tips on how to do this most effectively?
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Do you know how your friend feels about the two current interested VC's? Does friend not agree to their terms, are the VC's open to negotiations, does friend want to go after larger funding? If you can gauge friend's response to these questions, then you should be able to answer Q(1) and be comfortable doing Q(2) without burning bridges.

Friend should also give VC's more credit than to play them against each other or use them as bait. VC's are in their business because they know their stuff and can smell a good/bad idea a mile a way... when they don't understand an idea, it's because we as entrepreneurs have failed to help them understand.

<comment><AUTHOR> I would argue that often VC's can't smell a good or bad idea "a mile away". If they could, they would be seeing much better returns. That, I think, is why expanding the VC search once you have a few interested parties makes sense. Sometimes they want a piece of the pie, because everyone else says it tastes good.

Regarding the terms, it's just like anything else. If you can get better terms (terms that won't hinder you if you need to raise a series A) or get a deal with a firm that is more involved in your niche, through competition, you shouldn't settle for "agree"-ing, you should do the best for yourself that you can.

<comment><USER3> It seems like it makes sense, and they probably expect you to be shopping around to other VCs (why put all eggs in one basket). But as far as "is it dick to shop around once you have an offer?" I'm not sure, as I've never raised capital before. I'm curious how long a VC would give you before you've got to say yes to an offer. Like, can you take a month to "think about it" while going around and pitching other people? Will they know that's what you're doing?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> At the seed round, your friend should be focussed on getting whatever money they need to move forward with the business, while giving up an acceptably small part of it in return.

After those conditions are satisfied, a good relationship and shared vision with an investor is worth more than extra cash or lower dilution. These people will be your business partners until the sale, IPO, or death of your company, and so you should put almost as much care into choosing them as you do your cofounder(s).

A bidding war is fine, but huge weight should be given to the VCs themselves, and not necessarily their offers.</comment>


I Wasn't Prepared to Work - <AUTHOR> http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1803 <comment><USER2> This is a big part of the reason I support the idea of a "basic income" system.

I believe there are lots of people out there not wired for dealing with the politics or immediate-results stress of the VC system but who are self- directed, interested and motivated enough to work on big problems, but whose energy is destroyed by having to deal with the immense bullshit inherent in modern office-style software development to make money to pay the bills. As a society I believe we would be better off if these people were free to go live in some cheap cost of living area while just doing their thing and contributing to the commons in the form of open source or taking what they eventually create and marketing it (if it is marketable when complete) in order to generate wealth on top of their basic income.

I believe the same would hold for non-software creative jobs as well.

But, of course, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen.

<comment><USER3> Question (and this is motivated out of my ignorance, not any political leaning) --

If everyone gets a Basic Income, wouldn't prices merely rise to compensate for it, leaving us in the same state we're in now? In other words, when it comes to prices, isn't everything "relative," since prices are determined by supply and demand?

<comment><USER4> For prices to rise, the nominal amount of money flowing through the economy must increase somewhere along the line.

However, what occurs in basic income is a straight-up "redistribution of wealth" from richer to poorer, which means that the nominal amount of money in the system should be no different from the laissez-faire situation.

This in turn means that prices aren't going to change as a direct result, as in inflation(where there is an overt increase in money supply). But they are likely to change when consumer demand changes, which could happen if, for example, people receiving basic income start to upgrade their lifestyle away from abject poverty.

Some prices may actually drop as a result; for example, if more people can afford health insurance and get preventative care, the economies of scale for health insurance coverage improve. On the other hand, luxury goods with limited supply are likely to be pushed upwards to remain out of reach of the masses.

<comment><USER5> You're assuming that the basic income dollars would actually be transferred and not just printed.

<comment><USER4> Indeed. That's consistent with most proposals(including negative income tax) and the few real world implementations such as the Alaskan benefit.

The government can always opt to print for its expenditures - there is nothing stopping them from doing so, and it's a typical last resort of desperate leaders, but economic prescriptions avoid it since it lowers confidence, which has destabilizing effects beyond inflation.

<comment><USER6> Why government printing money for its expenditures is considered bad?

I know that it's tempting for government to print money uncontrollably. But what if printing money was proprly offset by increasing reserve requirement so that banks would create less money with credit at the same time?

<comment><USER4> This is a good question, and it's one of the more challenging aspects of neoclassical macroeconomics(as taught in most U.S. schools). It's also heavily contested, and one of the reasons why I started to dislike my study of economics, because the theory has to make some big assumptions to get any result.

The rationale given to not do this is that any policy change from the government is going to affect expectations of the future - if (on balance) most economic actors are rational and know that there will be inflation in the future, they will take steps _now_ to protect themselves from the side effects. If you change policy on both ends, expectations about the economy become uncertain - more so than if there's no change - which means that the market will start to move its investment towards other countries with more predictable economies.

Here's a Wikipedia article describing the original proposition that this theory was built on: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Ineffectiveness_Proposit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Ineffectiveness_Proposition)

<comment><USER6> I think that any potential incentive for the investments to leave could be properly offset by lowering or abolishing taxes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If the start of this post put you off because it sounds arrogant, please keep reading. It is an intentional setup to highlight the core point, which I think is in this paragraph:

 _But the environment matters a lot less than the fact that when I get home from work—which is a two hour commute each way (sorry, I can't afford to live in downtown San Francisco)—I just feel like being mentally incapacitated. Occasionally I have a little spark of brilliance (relative, not absolute) that motivates me to write a short bit of code, but the code is never more than one or two hundred lines. It usually consists of some little trick._

That is: you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and thinking in a particular way. The author tagged it "sad" for a reason.

<comment><USER8> > _you cannot fight your day-to-day work — long-term — by working on your own > stuff, when you get home after already spending 6-7 hours working and > thinking in a particular way. The author tagged it "sad" for a reason._

That's precisely why this post resonated with me. Even short of literally switching mind sets, I find it tricky to get motivated to code after spending ~8 hours at work (coding). As it stands, I even find myself stressing out over weekends due to not being "productive" enough on side projects.

Of slightly more relevance to the author, having done the 2-hour commute in SV (granted, _from_ SF to Menlo because socially I couldn't stand the latter), I strongly recommend against it. Housing accommodations can be found in SF for a developer's wage, and I would strongly urge anyone and everyone to avoid spending 4 hours of their life each day in transit. It makes a difference.

<comment><USER9> About to start a daily commute from Berkeley to Menlo Park. Am optimistic about 880-South in the morning, and driving seems far faster and more peaceful than the BART -> Shuttle method. But I do mourn the loss of productive time on a daily basis, but can't imagine a better place to live. Even on a wonderful developer salary, I cannot possibly afford a nice apartment for me and my partner in San Francisco or on the peninsula. Especially compared to East Bay's prices...

<comment><USER10> I don't quite follow the logic of driving being "faster". In my experience, public transportation can be highly productive time for certain activities like reading, while driving is very limited in the activities you can safely do (though I used to have a tape in my car to help me practice singing scales, so there are some safe options).

<comment><USER9> I've just timed it out for about 45 minutes in the car, and an hour and fifteen for the BART/shuttle combo. I also quite like podcasts, so am all right with having just my ears free while driving.

<comment><USER11> Berkeley to Menlo Park is only 45 minutes if you leave at the correct time (before 6-7 and after 10am, and 1-3pm or >9pm), and there are no accidents or other delays.

To get there with 95% odds, you often need to allow 70-80 minutes. I guess it depends on how bad being late is.

Timing it to arrive at 0930 is actually really hard; I end up leaving around 0730 to be 99% certain of arriving on time. Sometimes it's an hour early, but sometimes only 15 minutes early.

<comment><USER9> You've just broken my heart. My timing's basically based on two 9 AM drives that hit traffic/construction, but took no more than 45 minutes.

I start tomorrow.

<comment><USER11> 80 (i.e. along the shore in Berkeley) is _really_ bad quite often, but you could possibly skip most of that. If you can avoid that, it's not too bad, although the 880 parts in Oakland (due to port/construction traffic) can be bad.

<comment><USER9> Actually live in Oakland near Emeryville. Not sure why I wrote Berkeley, except for misguided attempt at identity obfuscation. But used to live up in Contra Costa county, and the mornings I'd drive into SF-- boy howdy, 580/80 along the coast near University was an absolute disaster.

I wonder if, as "Oakland becomes the new Mission", if we'll see more of the tech giants sending shuttles up to East Bay. I know Google has at least one going to West Oakland, but Facebook does not yet.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, I have a friend who worked at google who lives at the cannery lofts, and used the west Oakland Bart google shuttle a lot. I still would want my car in case I wanted to work late, or go somewhere other tha directly home.

Another annoying thing about 880 is the trucks and general narrowness. It is technically 45mph but people do 70-80. I hadn't had an accident there, but it kind of sucks vs the rest of 880.

You are aware that a lot of the Oakland/emeryville areas near 30th and such are pretty gangster, right? My friend had a loft there and I kept showing up at her buyer while the cops had the block shut down to serve a high risk warrant.

<comment><USER9> Yes, a friend's motorcycle was severely damaged last week from someone trying to steal it. He was upstairs in our apartment eating dinner. Nine more months on the lease!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Well said. It is damn tough (if not impossible) to keep the same sort of intellectual stimulation going when you have to "work" at a dull, boring job (or maybe _any_ job, other than doing pure research).

I definitely miss having time just explore, play and do interesting stuff, now that I have both a $DAYJOB and a startup. However, the goal is to get the startup to a point where I can either:

A. IPO or sell the company, and walk way with enough cash to be financially independent for life, giving me all time I want to do "fun" stuff.

B. Get the startup to a point where it makes sense to hire somebody else to be CEO, appoint myself some nonsense title like "Chief Scientist", collect a reasonable salary, and spend all my time researching and playing with neat stuff.

It makes me sad though, every time I look around my apartment and see all these math books, or philosophy books, or history books or whatever, that reflect some interest I've been wanting to explore forever, but don't have time for. :-(

<comment><USER13> I know exactly how you feel about seeing the books you never have time to read... <http://sdrv.ms/10HTsYs>

<comment><USER14> If you have difficulty reading AI book, I highly recommend taking this course:

[https://www.edx.org/course/uc- berkeley/cs188-1x/artificial-i...](https://www.edx.org/course/uc- berkeley/cs188-1x/artificial-intelligence/579)

Just read the chapters that are being covered in the course and you will have read one third of it! Second part will start early next year with further chapters covered.

<comment><USER13> I have actually read the majority the AI book, it was the course textbook for the AI paper I did at university. The reason it is there is because I want to re-read parts for a project that I have never started.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I empathize with this a ton. Reminds me of a David Foster Wallace commencement speech in which the takeaway point was something to the effect of 'you graduates don't yet know what day in, day out really means.' (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFt7EzpsZQo>)

Come on folks, let's think up a better primary waking activity for the average person than "attach yourself to someone else's dreams, and help build their wealth, at the expense of your own intellectual freedom and sanity." It's a first world problem, but I think privileged first world people should put some effort into thinking up something better for everyone. Effort meaning an intentional foray into some creative economics.

The economic world is something that can be shaped. The problems, of course, are where to start, and how to do it :-)

<comment><USER16> >Come on folks, let's think up a better primary waking activity for the average person than "attach yourself to someone else's dreams, and help build their wealth, at the expense of your own intellectual freedom and sanity."

Part of the reason that efforts to do this have cooled down some is that the previous attempts didn't go so well.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale>

<comment><USER15> Socialism is about attaching yourself to the community (or usually the Politburo's) 5-year dream for production. Doesn't have anything to do with individual freedom.

In the 21st century, there is little valid reason to coordinate production centrally - it's inefficient and causing industries to bumble along, generally. The direction now is to automate production and have universal minimum income that can be used for competitive purchasing of goods and services. Sounds like a market economy to me.

<comment><USER16> >Doesn't have anything to do with individual freedom.

Generally 20th century enterprises employed millions of factory workers as machines in a giant productive machine, with the benefits going to the founders/owners/etc. Socialist movements were an attempt to capture this value for the people creating it. Which would presumably mean you didn't have to work as much.

As a casual reading of history will tell you, it didn't work.

>In the 21st century, you there is little valid reason to coordinate production centrally

I wholly doubt that decentralized manufacturing solutions benefit from economies of scale as well as their centralized kin. (Assuming you're talking about 3D Printing/etc/all.)

>Sounds like a market economy to me.

I would hope so. Command economies are generally a bad idea.

<comment><USER15> The economic concept of centrally-coordinated production has nothing to do with 3D printing (?) or "centralized" / "decentralized" in the computing or distributed systems sense.

It has everything to do with economic planning (the Argentinian government at one point literally had a room where they president and staff would sit in command chairs and plan out production across the economy, although I don't think it was ever used).

Sure, socialism was designed to let the employees capture value. But intellectual freedom is different from _who gets to capture the value._ Even in America today, there are employee-owned companies. If capturing the value is what you care most about, you don't need socialism - just work for an employee-owned company.

<comment><USER17> _just work for an employee-owned company._

How is this different than, "attaching yourself to a community," which you denigrated above?

<comment><USER15> Two ways: It's voluntary, and you might get some of the profits if the company goes in the green.

In a state socialist economy, you have to go work on the pig farm or whatever. In a market-ish economy, the attachment to a particular community is more voluntary. You can, more often that not, choose which one you want to join.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I recently quit my job due to having an eerily similar feeling. I saved enough money to take a break for even a year or two if I want. It is difficult to express how much more fulfilled I feel following my own academic pursuits rather than someone else's business plan.

So far my plan for the future is:

      1. Enjoy as much time off as my heart desires, until I start feeling monetary pressure.
      2. Suck it up and get a job that is boring and pays an inordinate amount of money.
      3. Do that for 1-2 years, living frugally, fattening my savings.
      4. Repeat.

Better suggestions welcome.

<comment><USER19> I'm going about it a different way: work hard while I'm young and save (i.e. invest) as much as I can so that I can retire early. My current retirement age goal is 45.

<comment><USER20> What if you die at age 44? And what if there is hyper-inflation?

<comment><USER21> You bet the farm and lost. Shit happens sometimes...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> > _I Wasn't Prepared for Work_

Some people just aren't cut out for the business world. Centuries ago they might have become monks or clergy.

These days they exit academia with a master's degree or Ph.D., try unsuccessfully to fit into the business world, then retreat back to academia and eventually become associate professors or professors.

It's very easy to spot these types of people in interviews. I generally pass on them because it's been my experience that in the business world they are rudderless. They are very smart, but they often don't understand why companies pass on them.

On the other hand, in this case, it may just be the four-hour commute. No job is worth traveling four hours in a car each day, unless it's the only one you can find and you're supporting a family. If that's not the case, find something closer, or move. San Francisco isn't the only place that creates software.

</comment><comment><USER23> Among the HN crowd, and especially those who dislike working for others, I'm surprised there isn't more of a focus on early retirement. If you make an upper-middle class salary, it's not difficult to become financially independent in a decade, even if you don't "strike it big".

Here's a great article by a programmer-turned-blogger about how savings rate affects time-to-retirement:

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly- sim...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math- behind-early-retirement/)

</comment><comment><USER15> Wait, ya'll, let me know what you think about this idea as a way to enable more people to work on math, CS and other formalized things and get paid. More generally, this is a potential way to solve the friction between what workers _are_ doing and what they are _capable of_ doing.

I have this notion that there should be an online community that formalizes the search for solutions to open problems. Each open problem has _directions_ and _attempts_. Proof software validates attempts, and senior community members discard fruitless directions.

Let's say you want to tackle a hard unsolved math problem. Import all of the research directions to date, and log the attempts. Recursively log directions and attempts, and build up a tree of research into the problem.

Generous organizations and governments set up very large prizes for successful solutions, and when a solution is discovered and verified, contributors are rewarded according to merit. The person who provides the proof gets the largest prize, and the folks higher up in the tree for that problem who defined new directions get some money, too.

Research will accelerate, so it's worth the money. It doesn't solve the problem of tedious work in general - it only solves it for the specific case of workers who, due to friction and the incentive structure in the economy today, are producing at less than their potential.

</comment><comment><USER24> Productivity is antithetical to intellectual exploration. Software is a craft pursuit, essentially blue-collar work. The OP does not wish to be a craftsman. He wishes to be an intellectual, an explorer, an inventor, all of which are pursuits of luxury, enabled by the efforts of those people who actually make things and do the labor of the world. I find it unfortunate that in stating his preferences he finds the need to dismiss the value and joy of crafting.

It used to be that those luxury pursuits were the realm of the upperclass or the genius, though more recently they were subsidized by the labor union- enabled middle class support of public universities. Such accessibility, though, is a historical anomaly and has fallen apart with the fall in funding for higher education.

I enjoy making things, even out of parts, because those choices are valuable. The application of design patterns is joyful, even if it involves creating nothing from whole cloth, because of the rapid creation of a product in which I take pride. I recommend to the OP that if he genuinely does not enjoy what he is doing, he seek out some other field, part time work or simply long-term employment where his employer will appreciate algorithmic innovations (I find computer vision to be an excellent field for this).

</comment><comment><USER25> This is why I freelance remotely. I set my own hours, charge by day of work (or by week), and don't really need to commute (drove less than 200 miles in 6 months(grocery shopping)). I know I'm lucky.

</comment><comment><USER26> Why not use that 2 hour commute to learn a new language? Pop in some audio of sentences, grammar, and vocab words. I'm sure you can find plenty of audio resources for new languages online, and start learning!

Everyone is so set on coding for their personal projects. Why not explore other areas like learning a new language, and expand your skills.

<comment><USER27> Easier said than done - your advice sounds a bit like [http://www.theonion.com/articles/find-the-thing-youre- most-p...](http://www.theonion.com/articles/find-the-thing-youre-most- passionate-about-then-do,31742/).

I can't imagine how exhausting four hours of commuting per day must be.

<comment><USER28> I do three hours a day (1.5 hours each way) from a Chicago suburb to downtown, 5 days a week. It's exhausting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Is academia an excuse to "hide out" for a while and continue being an autodidact? Also, the 2 hour commute, as I'm sure you suspect, is no small part of the intellectual killer.

<comment><USER30> Only if you want to be slowly edged out. Academia actively kills off people too interested in taking classes and insufficiently interested in doing work for whatever preset research effort can pay their rent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Some tips I learned from my commute from south bay <\--> SF for two years.

\- Take caltrain for normal days. Drive for days with evening events. Trains are far slower in off peak hours.

\- Use a bike for station to home/office. Bart or VTA are shit.

\- Get up early, use bullet train (last one leaves Mt View ~8am)

\- Use a data plan on train to catch up on emails, code reviews, etc. Or type up some code that you can finish up compiling debugging when in office.

I probably would prefer this commute over 30minute drive within south bay.

</comment><comment><USER13> This post resonates with me a lot. I have often considered writing something similar called "How I became a 9-5 programmer." I got my current job straight out of university, about 2.5 years ago. Since I started working, I have noticed that I feel both more, and less capable. What I mean by this is that while I am certainly more skilled at writing software than when I started working, I feel much less optimistic and able to tackle hard problems.

<comment><USER32> This just sounds like a case of reality setting in. When people know a little about something, they often think they are at a far higher level than they really are. There is a word for this, but it's evading me ATM.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Oh man, this really hit me hard.

I'm halfway through an MA in mathematics and thinking about going on to a Ph.D. I've done very well at my current institution and think I'll have a decent chance of getting into a good program. But I'm not totally convinced I'll make it in the long run. I've seen some friends of mine go through the academic job search this year, and it's absolute hell. I don't imagine it'll improve when I hit the market. If I go the academic track, I might not get a job. Or worse, I get caught in postdoc limbo or am denied tenure. Then I'll essentially be where I am now, minus 5-15 years of my life (I'm studying pure mathematics. I'm not likely to pick up any directly-marketable skills in further graduate studies).

Meanwhile, essentially my entire social infrastructure is moving to the Bay Area. The appeal of going up there, getting a job (establishing financial security next year instead of next decade), and being around people who I know I want to have in my life, is becoming hard to ignore.

I'm frighted by my eventual prospects in the academic job market, but I already knew that was scary. But down the other path might be something at least as bad.

Fuck.

<comment><USER34> I saw a statistic claiming there are about 5 graduate students for every professor in the American graduate schools. Unless you want to really pursue the academic path, maybe a phd is not worth it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> > But the environment matters a lot less than the fact that when I get home > from work—which is a two hour commute each way (sorry, I can't afford to > live in downtown San Francisco)—I just feel like being mentally > incapacitated.

Although this seems like a minor point in the article, and to some extent it is, I think this is still fairly significant. Four hours of commuting every day is a hell of a lot. I'd eventually come to hate almost any job if I had to commute that much.

I'm also quite confused on why this person didn't go to graduate school. By his own admission, he's not making enough to even live inside San Francisco (you can certainly share an apartment downtown on a modest income if you're frugal), so he's not really getting the main advantage that a career offers over graduate school: money. If he's not going to make much money doing something he dislikes, why not instead make little money doing something he loves?

<comment><USER36> Exactly my thoughts. He comes across as the ideal candidate for further study. No doubt, if he's as capable as he makes out, he'd be able to get a PhD scholarship, and spend all day doing what he wants do to. Granted, there is still a lot of "politicking" in grad school, but you can avoid most of it.

re: commuting. I spent 10 years commuting 1 hour each way (2 hour daily commute) to and from first high school, then university. The biggest quality of life improvement I've ever experienced was moving closer to wherever I had to be day-in-day-out. Every single relocation decision has been chosen explicitly to lower my commute time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Thanks for making me feel fortunate for working where I work, doing what I'm doing, with the team I'm a part of, HN.

</comment><comment><USER38> "I find myself abstaining from studying advanced topics in programming and computer science, and instead sticking to this comfort zone of what I know."

that pretty much sums up why you may not enjoy work anymore. i've been doing the exact same thing for the last 8 years, research on google, find an example that gets me close, manipulate it to my desire to get the results im looking for. this is not a bad thing, and is also an art.

i find one can get a rush through learning, it seems you get the same when you delve into certain subjects. i usually get bored with working at a company after a couple of years. mostly due to the repetition that ensues when one is comfortable with their environment. i've worked in 5 different industries using 13 different languages in the last 8 years.

you always have a choice on how to solve the problem. implement it the easy way you know how, or do extra research and find a more optimal solution. i code in a manner that excites me. this usually leads to better code as well as learning new techniques in the process. i do a lot of language research and slowly work my way to the most advanced techniques a language has to offer. i learned about pythons named tuples the other day, iterator tool's groupby and chain. i use these new constructs when i can.

if you make learning part of the job, it stays enjoyable longer. i also make an effort to learn other things outside of tech at home. learn to skate, play the guitar, learn a new language.

don't get burned out on coding.

</comment><comment><USER39> I'll say this: it sounds like the author went through a great deal of stress (interviewing, moving to another state, taking a new job, taking on a huge commute, living in an unfamiliar area) and stress _does_ make one feel like they're less intellectually capable.

I found best way to deal with this is to connect with like-minded folks: look for people who do interesting things (whether at work or elsewhere) and who live or work next to you; at the least grab dinner or drinks with them occasionally, attend meetups/conferences that they attend, etc.. To your surprise, you may find that many people with what you see as enviable careers went through same challenges as you have (everyone had to face self-doubt, stress, and exhaustion at some point or another).

Others talked about commute, but I'll suggest some actionable choices: commuting from Oakland/Berkeley/Emeryville is 20-25 minutes door-to-door (granted these places are no longer inexpensive, but still much better than downtown SF -- if by downtown SF you mean somewhere close to a Bart Station). If you're willing to commute for 30-60 minutes (still less than two hours), Pleasanton/Dublin (a 40-45 minute Bart ride) is an option, as is Daly City/Colma (30-40 minutes), or Sunset (40-45 minute commute by Muni Metro).

Education is also a great alternatives: if your high school grades are too poor to be admitted to a university, California has a great community college system (e.g., Foothill or De Anza). While the days of "guaranteed transfer to UC Berkeley or UCLA" are over due to budget cuts, you still have a high chance of getting into a good school (including Berkeley MA CS program, even if perhaps not EECS).

What you've probably realized right now is that you've got the rest of your life to work: it's one thing to drop out if your side projects becomes a wild success, it's another thing to forego college altogether in favour of work. Furthermore (and I am not defending this as necessarily just or right, it's more of "the way things are" right now) coming in as an intern can generally be a gateway into more rewarding jobs as opposed to trying to find a full time job without any experience in areas that compose the set intersection of "interesting" and "in-demand". I've known folks who went back to academia after 10 years in the industry (most in order to attend graduate school, but a few returned for undergrad) and it is really never too late.

<comment><USER40> _To your surprise, you may find that many went through same challenges as you have._

That's why I post things I "should never say" under my real name. Ten years from now when I succeed in spite of it, I want people to realize that this painful shit is part of the path, rather than suffering in silence and being ashamed of their (actually very common) setbacks. We live in a phenomenally stupid world where a lot of horrendous, incapable people have power, and if there is anything good about you, you will suffer for it; but people overcome that anyway. It's not as common as it should be, but it happens.

I can't stand this world where people pretend to be happier than they are in order to project status, and thus create a world of full-out dishonesty that almost no one has the courage to challenge. I'd much rather bring out the truth so we can start fixing things and solving problems. I'm young, but I won't always be; so let's get this shit over with, be completely honest with ourselves as a society, tear down whatever powers deserve it, and build something better.

<comment><USER39> Erm, I understand you have some strong opinions on this, but I actually meant something slightly different: people go through tough periods but generally bounce back and are _actually_ happy (even during their tough periods).

It isn't evidence that you need to "tear down whatever powers ": how confident are you that whatever you'll build will actually be better?

I'll say one last thing: if your system design goal is having a high uptime guarantee, it's easier to do so by building systems that have a low mean time to recovery (MTTR) as opposed to infinitely high mean time between failure (MTBF). Applying this analogy to other topics is left as exercise to reader.

<comment><USER40> _people go through tough periods but generally bounce back and are actually happy (even during their tough periods)._

I believe that, too.

I'm not an unhappy person. I'm angry often, but if you recognize anger and put it in its proper place, it need not be overwhelming. There's nothing wrong with having anger. The problem is letting it control you; that's when you're losing.

Happiness and anger are not mutually exclusive. In fact, it's hard to be happy if you don't experience negative emotions (anger, fear, disgust) in proper, limited, and appropriate ways.

 _It isn't evidence that you need to "tear down whatever powers ": how confident are you that whatever you'll build will actually be better?_

Extremely so. The world (at least, the business world; I don't think public- sector "politicians" are that bad, the worst are rarely worse than the constituents who elect them) is run by some of the worst people imaginable.

<comment><USER41> _The world (at least, the business world; I don't think public-sector "politicians" are that bad, the worst are rarely worse than the constituents who elect them) is run by some of the worst people imaginable._

Most of your comments don't seem particularly anti-business, but this seems fairly out there. What's your basis for this particular claim?

<comment><USER42> He had a manager he didn't like once at google and has built his worldview around it.

<comment><USER43> It is not just that. I think going through bad startups too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> grey-area Not all jobs require producing a solution in a short time to a trivial problem, some jobs involve a lot of abstract thought (academia, some software companies) which the OP seems to enjoy, though very few combine high salary, thinking freely on topics which interest you, no workplace politics, and convenient location, however if you are not in a job and environment which satisfies you, you clearly have the abilities and resources to change that situation.

To the OP I'd say:

        Ditch the commute - either move closer to work or find other work - I don't know how you can stand a 4 hour commute, that alone would knock me out.
        Long term, ditch the job - it's clearly not a good fit for you, there are plenty of jobs out there suited to  your particular interests. They won't all be well paid but they won't require a 2 hour commute and work you find tedious either.
        Accept compromise on some areas (i.e. lower pay or living with others) in order to gain on others (short commute).
        Don't succumb to bitterness or blame others for your predicament, it doesn't help.

</comment><comment><USER44> RE: "When I was 16 or 17, I was exploring the relation x ....After all of that, I came up with, through experimental ways, methods for approximating x to1/x using rational functions, very reminiscent of Padé approximations."

At 16 or 17 your brain filled with a hot-rush golden glowing light as you knew you moved the whole ball of wax.

You want that.

We also. Therefore please:

Show HN: (Padé) Rational Approximations of y = x to 1/x?

</comment><comment><USER45> Just a bit of a shock at the end here -- "my decision to rush off to stuff my bank account."

Not everyone gets to _decide_ and not everyone _stuffs their bank account._ Far from it. It seems that the OP is very self-aware and aware of his own benefits, but the luxury for work to be a decision is one you should never take for granted.

</comment><comment><USER46> Fascinating. I have the same symptoms as described by the author, but they're due to a major depression. I stay in my comfort zone, and am lacking the brilliance I had earlier, if I may be so unhumble. I can't write code anymore.

I'm sad for the author, but it's interesting to recognize myself in a completely different setting.

</comment><comment><USER47> Is a two-hour commute really necessary? I found rooms on Craigslist for $650 a month in South SF. Personally though, I'd shoot for one of the $850/month pads I saw in downtown. As long as you're making at least $60K that should be doable. Shaving 20 mins off a daily commute is worth 200 bucks at least.

</comment><comment><USER48> An amazing article which resonates well with what is happening to me. I find myself just copy pasting lot of code from stackoverflow(website), leaning to google for every answer and not able to come up with good solution for even moderate tough problems. Earlier I used to be able to convey my thoughts well in writing at least - now even that has degenerated I think. Thinking about something deeply is now a chore for me. I get distracted, irritated very easily and this increases mental tension...this is a vicious circle. I stopped TV for the fear of it dumbing me down. Now I am abusing stackoverflow, google and getting into the same situation. Fear of job security and having to learn just enough to get the job done is not helping either.

</comment><comment><USER49> I feel for the author, but it seems like (whether he realizes it or not) he's not complaining about the modern working world so much as he's just complaining about fundamental facts of life- at some point you've got to move away from home and start supporting yourself, and it may take a while to find a way to do that in a way that doesn't drive you crazy.

At the end he says this:

"Had I known the burden that an average (or above average) job would put forth, I might have re-evaluated my decision to rush off to stuff my bank account."

The phrasing, "to stuff my bank account" makes it sound like he feels like he made some Faustian bargain to give up his soul for the filthy lucre. But that's not why he rushed off. He rushed off because of this:

"I was approaching my 20s and I had to get a job. Living at home off of my parents was not sustainable, and wasn't conducive to a better future."

Is he saying, he wished he never left home, and continued living off of his parents? Because I hope he realizes that that's not an option, or at least not one that's going to be good for him or anyone else in the long term.

Or, is he saying that he had achieved some reasonable way of supporting himself back at home, but he kept moving around and chasing higher-paying jobs, until some financial version of the Peter Principle kicked in and he attained some high-paying position that he hated? It doesn't sound like it, since he still complains about not being able to afford a decent place near work and spending 4 hours commuting every day.

I'm not sure he's saying anything other than verbalizing why he feels unhappy right now, and for that I feel bad for him. This is the thing though- he's clearly approaching a fork in the road where he's going to have to make some tough decisions in order to get back to a reasonable level of happiness. The fork is whether he blames the world for his problems, or uses it as an opportunity to grow and find new ways to be happy and satisfied. If he blames the world for his problems, then presumably he quits his job, moves back in with his parents, and goes back to being addicted to his inner world all day long for as long as that lasts. He doesn't change, nothing changes, he just figures out some way to prolong his adolescence for a while longer.

The much better alternative is to just realize that a life well-lived continually pushes you outside your comfort zone, and the best skill you can acquire is to figure out how to roll with the punches and figure out new ways to be happy when the old ones aren't practical anymore. People in your life come and go, jobs come and go, where you live will change all the time, and your amount of free time and what you can do with it will change continuously over the years. More than anything else, YOU will change, the things you need will change, and the things that make you happy will change. You'll miss the people and things and places that are gone, but all of the pressure is on you to adapt and find new ways to be happy. It completely and totally sucks balls, but everybody has to go through it and it hits some people a lot harder than others.

There's things you can change and things you can't change. You can't change having to support yourself, or being responsible for your own health and happiness. But you can change just about everything else. Is a 4 hour commute making you miserable? Get a new job that's much closer to home. Or move closer to work. If you can't stand the commute, then one of those two things has to change, period. Also, it sounds like his passion for the more abstract, academic side of things would make him a perfect fit for grad school or a PhD. Maybe your parents have to help you with that for a while, or you can get a scholarship and/or student loans. Every problem you can verbalize like this is just a question that you need to come up with an answer for. Actually, based on what he wrote, it kind of blows my mind that he didn't want to at least stick around for an MS. Finally, he does sound like he may have some depression issues, and he should at least meet with a therapist or psychiatrist a few times to talk this stuff out. Nothing wrong with that, it happens to people all the time. Good luck, you won't need it though.

<comment><USER50> Great comment. At many stages of my life things suddenly just _got harder_. Bit by bit I've learned to cope with them. I'm sure there are many more such occasions on the horizon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Find a job you can do remotely, therefore no commute. Move to another country. You'll be rich there so you'll have nice place to live in. At some point you might want to ditch US citizenship to make IRS stop draining your income. Accumulate enough money to retire for few years than do it. During this few years have fun with your own stuff. You'll create some passive income inevitably, just don't sweat about it. It might be even enough to live in his country without ever taking a job again. find a wife, have an awesome kid. Die happily.

If you are white I suggest moving to Poland. Locals won't be able to tell whether you are foreigner unless you speak. And in Poland we don't speak much with the other people, apart from friends.

</comment><comment><USER51> The lead-up describes somebody who definitely seems destined for research work, PhD, think-tank analyst, that kind of thing. It's not surprising that a run-of-the-mill code-slinging J.O.B is a terrible fit and I feel bad about it - but it's never too late to change paths. Why not make an effort to steer out of the situation into a career that is a better fit? You smashed a multivariable calculus course in less than a week and here you are working next to people who barely scraped through a general arts degree. It's painful to even hear about.

<comment><USER34> The problem is more complex than that I believe. I can say that my experience with mathematics has been very similar up until a certain point during my undergraduate years when money became really tough for me. All the stress and uncertainty ate me up and I ended up feeling a lot like his later self much earlier than at a run-of-the-mill job. There simply aren't enough spots in academia and during graduate school a big portion of people like us don't get paid enough to get by. I'd say most of us burn up before they get to the end.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> I think the point is another: it seems that only if you do maths you are smart. And whey all the formulas at the beginning, to make sure the reader think you are smart? You might have lost some abilities in that field but you gained others, to me more valuable than doing demonstrations.

If you like math do something with that, to me it seems that academia is more suitable for what you want from your life.

</comment><comment><USER53> > _I have no room for a chalkboard or whiteboard, unless I wanted to cover up > half of my mirrored closet._

You have a mirrored closet? Problem solved. You have a fancy dry-erase board, no modifications necessary.

This is a random offshoot of the actual point, but I think it's useful to know that you can use any window or mirror as a dry-erase board.

</comment><comment><USER54> From the article - "shortest distance between a point and a line".

Distance between a point and a line is the length of the line segment that joins the point and the line, and is perpendicular to it. It's nonsense to speak of "shortest distance". It tends to imply that there are many distances between...one of them is shortest.

</comment><comment><USER55> I found this blog entry interesting not so much for the point being made, but as an insight into the intellectual pursuits of an extremely intelligent teenager.

At that age, I was mostly playing Goldeneye 007.

</comment><comment><USER56> blasted simple neural network behavior equations :P

</comment><comment><USER57> Maybe you're learning now that the skills you learned and valued so much weren't really that valuable at all?

<comment><USER58> The author's point is that "valuable" isn't the same as "valued by others who are willing to pay you", and that the latter can interfere with the former.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> I just read like all of this guys blog posts, they are great!

</comment><comment><USER40> OP deserves a lot of credit for having the courage to write this.

1\. Software was _supposed_ to be trans-industrial. If you knew how to write code, you could work anywhere in the industrial economy. This meant it would have all the same benefits (stability, industry-agnosticism) of management without the negatives (subjectivity, politics). Unfortunately, that didn't last. Managers took that from us and created a culture of oblique/inappropriate specialization because it's easier to do that than to admit that they don't understand what we do.

2\. Our industry has become _extremely_ anti-intellectual. There's a sharp phase change between what your professors groom you for (out of a legacy leftist hope, never realized, that if a leadership education is delivered down into society's middle; then the scorned middle classes will revolt against the elite) and the world of Work, which hasn't evolved in most places. Adam Smith called Britain "a nation of shopkeepers". Corporate America is a nation of social climbers. It's fucking revolting. The good news is that, after a few years, you get used to it and develop the social skills necessary to survive it.

3\. I don't think the future is in the Bay Area or Manhattan. Those are great places to build your career and gain some credibility/savings/experience while society figures out where the future will be. However, if you want to build the future, California's not the place for that anymore. Forty years ago, Northern CA was where people went to escape the _Mad Men_ nonsense. Now, houses in Palo Alto-- a _suburb_ ; we're not talking San Francisco-- are more expensive than many places in Manhattan. The future's going to come out of a location that's free from the high-rent nonsense that creates a work culture of subordination. The years that made Silicon Valley cheap were those in which few feared the boss because one could make living money doing odd jobs, the cost of living being so low. That's over now. The Valley is Manhattan (again, _Mad Men_ ) minus winter and with worse architecture.

4\. Through all this, you gotta play the long game. Sure, you're not going to be able to do hard experimental mathematics. You may have to let that dream go. Just keep current/sharp enough to be eligible for interesting work when it comes up. _That_ is doable. Things are terrible right now for cognitive 1-percenters who want meaningful, interesting work (i.e. an upper middle class salary isn't enough, and it's never "stable" for top-0.x-percent intellects because of the job security risks that level of talent implies) but they won't always be like this.

5\. Relatedly, if you watch the social climbers, they don't do a lot of real work. If you get even passably good at their game, you can get by with a couple hours of focused effort and that leaves 5-6 for self-directed learning. (Don't write code that you'll use later on work time-- you don't own that-- but feel free to explore and just rewrite the code _from scratch_ at home.) Don't feel wrong about doing this; it's a crooked game and that makes criminals of everyone. Work is (for 95+ percent of people) just about advancing your career; the other shit is stuff people say to distract the naive and clueless. That idealistic shit is a luxury of the extremely privileged, and you need to pretend it as a status signal, but don't believe your own lie. Proles have to take what they can. Just be smart about it. Stealing office supplies == stupid. It's illegal and wrong and dumb and you'll get fired. Making decisions that help your career but aren't optimal for others (who don't give a shit about you either) == smart, if you don't get caught. If you steal, make sure to take intangibles.

6\. If you can, start getting up at 5:00 in the morning. Get some productive hours banged out before you go to work. If you can't go to bed early, then compensate by taking mid-afternoon naps in a place where your co-workers won't find you (almost no one gets anything done during those hours anyway). Relatedly, it's worth a lot of money to kill your commute. If you can't afford to live near work, then consider a different city.

7\. There are jobs that aren't like the corporate hell being describe above. They exist, but they're not common, and they're probably extremely selective in the Bay Area. When you get one, hold on to it for as long as it's good and learn as much as you can.

Also, on this: [http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/we-should- pay...](http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2013/01/07/we-should-pay-people- not-to-subordinate/)

<comment><USER60> _The future's going to come out of a location that's free from the high-rent nonsense that creates a work culture of subordination._

I've been toying with the idea of a _rural technologist_. Sure, if the startup I'm part of goes big, my equity might get me (most of) a house near the city. Or, I can take my skills and my money to the country. How might society change if rural areas had an influx of people who care about applying modern tech outside of city life? I feel like I (and maybe OP) would flourish with lower living costs, time to think and experiment, large tracts of land and grassroots farming & manufacturing industry.

<comment><USER61> It may not be as crazy as it sounds at first. Per documentaries, that was why the Silicon Valley came to be. Land was cheap, so Shockley (specifically avoiding the old centers of industry) set up shop there, and the rest is history.

<comment><USER62> That's skipping the substantial part where Terman establishes Stanford's engineering department, brings in massive government funding, and encourages students to commercialize the research.

<comment><USER61> Yes, certainly not to say Shockley was all alone in establishing in the Bay Area- but without him, would it be called the _Silicon_ Valley? :)

<comment><USER63> perhaps shockley would have actually preferred if it were called 'germanium valley' :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> The ability to google and copy-paste the answer is as common as the ability to drive a car - it is absolutely nothing special and absolutely must have. And of course it isn't enough to secure a job, let alone to make something people will appreciate.

And, pardon me, but having a chalkboard in one's room is a sign of narcissism.) Get a Ph.D from Princeton first.)

</comment><comment><USER65> Welcome to the real world :)

<comment><USER66> Welcome to the world _most people_ live in, would be more accurate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Staring at traffic for 4 hours a day is no way to treat oneself.

<comment><USER68> He should treat a 4 hour commute as a life-threatening emergency. That is insane. Drop what you are doing and find somewhere closer to live or get a closer job.

<comment><USER69> Not even just "treat" it like that; it _IS_ a life-threatening emergency. I was forced into that exact situation for 1 month. Even paying $4 bridge-toll. It wasn't even a question if I was going to quit that job, the situation fell apart on its own. I just couldn't sustain it. That daily 4hr commute eclipses any other issue he has, IMHO. Whatever physical or mental energy you didn't burn up in the office is destroyed in 4hrs of traffic. Nobody should live like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> I suspect that part of the problem is that many people working on programming projects no longer feel like they are making the world a better place. Many of the world-changing ideas have been implemented. For many people, what is left but to continually optimize what already exists?

<comment><USER71> > Many of the world-changing ideas have been implemented. For many people, > what is left but to continually optimize what already exists?

This sounds unimaginative to the point of absurdity.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Ok, so i have an awesome app, and 10K in budget, now what? - <AUTHOR>

I am a tech guy, creating apps is easy. I can get around the coding, design, ux and make it shiny. But how the hell do i get users? 10K/life is all the money i can spend on this.
Social sites are bullshit, unless you got an army of friends, no one is going to notice you.
CPC? Even with insanely low 0.2 per click, and 5% ridiculously high conversion, that's only 2500 users. Only 5% of them will be loyal users, so we are down to 125. What about next month?
Hoping to get noticed by techcrunch / mashable is stupid.
SEO is also no good, it will take months to get ranked. And If the idea is unique it won't help (did anyone search for "how do i send 140 char messages" before twitter, or even after?).  Trying to rank for more general keywords like 'find friends online' is retarded, would take years.
Solution one: Get lucky, get noticed by the players. Solution two: Get funding, switch 10K/life to 30K/month. Solution three: ????. <comment><USER2> Realise that massive success is not going to happen overnight.

Don't dismiss SEO because it will "take months to get ranked" - start pursuing SEO now and in a couple of months you can rank. If your idea is unique, that's great! Try to rank for the problems that people have, not how your app solves them.

While you're waiting for your SEO efforts to pay off, use PPC to refine your marketing message. Test, analyse, refine, repeat. PPC is an expensive way of getting users at first, but it's a cheap way of refining your marketing.

Finally, find people that are experiencing the problem that your app solves. Join and contribute to communities, sponsor competitions, write guest blog posts. Establish yourself before using the back-channels to Mashable/Techcrunch.

Do all this stuff for a couple of months and don't get downhearted if nothing pays off immediately. It's investment.

</comment><comment><USER3> You might start with putting a link here.

The advice will proably be a combination of online marketing strategies out there. CPC, SEO, viral loops, what not...Some will work better than others, some will work quicker, some slower.

It's relly hard to give further advice without knowing details.

</comment><comment><USER4> Finding a (legitimate) excuse to post on reddit (or similar) gets a surprising number of hits. I can't tell you anything about conversion rates of those visitors, but just the other day I broke down and submitted a company blog post to the relevant category on reddit and got a few hundred hits in a few hours even though it didn't get many upvotes and zero comments. It was an actual essay, not a sales pitch, but at least they ended up on my company's site.

As far as I can tell, it seems that lots of people are interested in "this is where I see my niche going" posts for any industry or technology. The people who will end up at your site probably are already thinking about that niche, but they are probably your best bet for early adopters, anyway.

Maybe all that is obvious and old news. Like you, I find it hard to get excited about social media marketing so I'm just now begrudgingly experimenting with it. It's not a long term strategy, but it should be enough to build some traction.

And if you really want to spend money, a good copy editor for every word that ends up representing your product definitely gets you better copy much faster.

</comment><comment><USER5> If its so awesome why didn't you mention it? You have to promote it, and you don't always need money.

The eat your own dogfood axiom is a good method for starting out. Post about your app on places where it is relevant, how it has helped bring about alignment of the planets and increased your bowling scores, etc. If it is highly interactive and fun to use or watch it being used, make a youtube video on "Get Ninja (insert category of app) Skillz With Easy App X"

If it is crowd sourced thing maybe run a contest to gather content/interest, don't have to blow ten grand on it, only a few hundred and some well placed shout-outs about the contest.

I myself like to look at videos and screenshots of apps (ohhh... shiny stuff!) You have a site with screenshots??

</comment><comment><USER6> Do you actually have an app? If so, can you talk about it at all or send demos? I, and I imagine many others on HN, could directly fund the project directly if the idea and execution are good.

If you are just asking the rhetorical question, it depends on whether or not the app requires a critical mass of users (ie social networking) In either case, your best bet is to publish and start discussing on a forum (HN is a great start).

</comment><comment><USER7> Depending on where you live, there are many meetup groups (or similar groups) that meet monthly to demo new products, discuss new technologies, etc. Find a few of those groups, make presentations, receive feedback. If you live in an area without these groups, look up a few in a specific geographic area (ex: SF Bay Area), contact the organizers, arrange to present at a few of them over a week long period and take a working vacation.

</comment><comment><USER8> It may take some time, but start a blog about something related to the app and push your articles to as many places as possible (stumbleupon, twitter, etc).

When you pay for marketing, you will make mistakes that cost you money during the learning process. You should only do this when you can afford to do so.

</comment><comment><USER9> I have a different take. Get professional marketing help.

This is not impossible. I - a professional marketing person - am your mirror. I have ideas, skills and the ability to get noticed but lack the ability to code. There are many like me and our talents and abilities are both real and valuable.

Find someone like me and partner with them. They can then do what you can't which is build an audience with very little budget.

In case you're wondering how, a lot of it is contacts. just like it is with code. For instance, I can get ads on networks at cost thanks to having friends that run them and owe me favors. I can also contact journalists who are friends directly. Finally, I already have the network and reach you don't.

Good luck. I think there's a huge gap for recognizing the value of non-tech skills in startups.

</comment><comment><USER10> Create something that makes people so happy they will tell _their_ friends about it.

</comment><comment><USER11> I would say solution one should be "be more positive and don't write off options as retarded unnecessarily". Your answer is probably a well thought out combination of all of the above and lots and lots of hard work and effort.

</comment><comment><USER12> Have you considered finding customers that are actually going to pay you a decent amount of money? E.g. business-to-business may turn out to be slow going, unsexy and very profitable.

</comment><comment><USER13> There us no one size fits all solution to marketing a startup / website. Usually, it is a combination of PR, SEO, CPC, Display advertising, Social, Viral techniques etc. Post the URL of your website, or answer the following questions:

\- What problem does it solve?

\- Who are your customers / users?

\- Where do they frequent?

Then we figure out a strategy to reach them.

<comment><AUTHOR> It is safe to say my app is a social one, like twitter, or even chatroulette. It does not solve anything in particular, besides boredom.

Chatroulette does not solve anything either, and people are more likely to use skype or msn for video. I doubt there is high traffic search for "chat with random strangers".

Anyway, i will share some progress. I tried a few ad networks.

Banner ads seem like a fail, only 0.1-0.15% ctr, this is horrible.

Adwords is also not kind to me. Since the idea is new and does not solve anything (as in there is no "how to….") i can't target specific searches. Some related keywords are getting very low traffic search and ctr is 0.04%, terrible.

Those were CTR if you didn't notice, not conversions. Conversions from above are single digits.

What i did find to work marvelously well is ads direct to website (popups and such). Right now i have a decent coming soon page, and for some regions i pay 4 cents per conversion (as in email). For conversions from US it costs 60 cents per conversion. Is it worth paying x15 for people from us? Maybe it will be easier to get "big in japan" and get world domination only later on?

I wonder how many users will actually be created once I start sending emails out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Solution three: make the app so good that people love it and spread the word.

</comment><comment><USER15> Talk with people about it.

</comment><comment><USER16> join and participate in some forums that are niche related and have users interested in what you built. You can easily bootstrap a SaaS if you have a presence and some authority on a few forums.</comment>


Picel is a Go REST-ful micro service for image processing with a lean API - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/henvic/picel

<comment><USER2> ☑ Ambiguously-pronounced name

☑ Go

☑ REST-ful

☑ microservice

☑ lean

YC bingo!

<comment><AUTHOR> hahaha! :)</comment></comment>


Finding primes in parallel - <AUTHOR> http://alicebobandmallory.com/articles/2010/01/14/prime-factorization-in-parallel

<comment><USER2> So many visitors and still nobody who steps forward and offers to benchmark on a machine with 4+ cores...</comment>


Show HN: Glancy - Article lengths at a glance - <AUTHOR> http://glancyapp.com/

<comment> rkuykendall-com I love it!

I was surprised to see that it even works on top of the Chrome extension I installed to change the HN design: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hacker- news-%20/oi...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/hacker- news-%20/oieefcckcbbgniifdhhialgkmghahjgl)</comment>


JavaScript 2's new direction -- factional fight has been resolved - <AUTHOR> http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/08/26/35NF-javascript-2-direction_1.html

<comment><USER2> Oh thank heaven. Those of us who actually LIKE prototypal inheritance and functional scope won't have to deal with all that copycat java nonsense any time soon!

<comment><USER3> Arguably, there wasn't any copycat Java nonsense in ECMA 4. And even if there was any, it was all entirely optional. (And if you're allocating a huge number of x,y coordinate objects, it would be kind of nice to use specialised two- field objects rather than hash-tables, wouldn't it?)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > Harmony could feature classes as a stronger way of making objects

As opposed to what? The current prototypical object model? How can class based OOP be 'stronger'?

<comment><USER5> It would be nice if they just fixed the current prototype based system instead.

<comment><USER6> What is broken about it?

(edit: just saw the following comment: Non-enumerable properties would be very nice)

<comment><USER5> It is overly complicated and there are a bunch of special cases. See Io's prototype system as a comparison:

[http://iolanguage.com/scm/git/checkout/Io/docs/IoGuide.html#...](http://iolanguage.com/scm/git/checkout/Io/docs/IoGuide.html#Objects- Overview)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> They aim to resolve XSS in the JS spec? Why not just restrict JS execution to some part of the HTML document that usually doesn't display user input?

<comment><USER7> No, a downvote is not a valid answer...</comment></comment>


What's the best way to rate programming skills? - <AUTHOR>

In an interview I was asked to rate myself as a programmer on a scale from 0 to 10. I had a really hard time answering that question because I had never really considered it.
So the first part of my question is: what makes a programmer rate higher than other programmers? Is it proficiency in multiple languages? Is it the amount of Github repos you have? Or perhaps how fast, clean, and modular your code is?
This leads to the second part: how do you build a portfolio that showcases these skills? This is easy if you're a graphic designer: you simply have a page that has all your designs on it. But what does a good portfolio look like for a developer? <comment><USER2> As for the first part anyone who would ask you that probably hasn't heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and you should respond by educating them (politely) that you providing such a rating probably isn't very useful <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect>

The second part can easily be achieved by linking to your github profile. If you don't contribute to any open source projects you probably have some side projects you wouldn't mind making public on github (if not, then start one).

<comment><USER3> Yeah, I think Github definitely helps, as well as few good answers on StackOverflow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This question suggests that the devs in your target company have lost control of developer hiring.

</comment><comment><USER5> The way I rate another programmer is by how hard I have to think while reading his/her code.

If it is clear and easy to follow, with few surprises, then I'll rate that programmer highly. If I find things that are more complicated than they need to be, my calm will be disturbed.

Assembly of japanese bicycle require great peace of mind.</comment>


Ask HN: Twitter account compromised, no response from Twitter...what to do? - <AUTHOR>

About a week ago, through some stupid moves on my part, one of our Twitter accounts was seized by an unauthorized 3rd party, who is now holding it for ransom.  I've emailed Twitter support multiple times, posted on Get Satisfaction, but haven't heard anything back.  Does anyone have any advice or know anyone at Twitter HQ that might be able to help?  If so, they can email me at my first name on mightybrand.com <comment><USER2> ZOMG</comment>


Setting Up Sublime Text for Python Development - <AUTHOR> http://dbader.org/blog/setting-up-sublime-text-for-python-development

<comment><USER2> Nice key bindings!

Here's my set up > [https://realpython.com/blog/python/setting-up-sublime- text-3...](https://realpython.com/blog/python/setting-up-sublime-text-3-for- full-stack-python-development/)</comment>


Brazil loses second health minister in less than a month as Covid-19 deaths rise - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/brazil-health-minister-nelson-teich-resigns <comment><AUTHOR> Brazil is fighting two virus simultaneously :˜(</comment>


Ask HN: Anyone know a good online Human Resource Management product? - <AUTHOR>

I'm trying to find a product to manage our HR work (position descriptions, performance reviews, KPIs etc). Ideally something like what 37Signals might make if HR didn't mean Highrise to them :-)<p>So far everything I've come across looks like scary mega-corp, windows, more buttons and menus that you can imagine, no usability stuff. <comment><AUTHOR> I asked this on Twitter as well, and so far have a couple of interesting links (in case anyone else is looking):

<http://www.orangehrm.com/> <http://recruiting.jobvite.com/></comment>


Tablet Sales Have Plateaued but There's a Future in Business - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/12/forrester-tablet-sales-have-plateaued-but-theres-a-future-in-business/

<comment><USER2> Tablets always seemed over hyped to me. At the end of the day, the majority of people I know go to work in an office and sit on front of a desktop all day long.

<comment><AUTHOR> My experience too, but it's strange to hear that the article mentions workers using or bringing in their own tablets for work. I have to wonder what they use it for.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The bigger 10"-or-so tablets certainly have a niche, although convertible laptops may have made that niche even smaller. I don't have much hope for 7" tablets, though. They're bigger than the 4" (or sub-4") smartphones and small enough to carry around. Now that 5" and 6" smartphones have seen some mainstream acceptance, I'm not sure that additional inch justifies lugging an additional device around all day.

My smartphone is nearing the end of its lifetime (it's already nearly three years old, which feels ancient in the tech scene) and I can't see myself spending some 500 bucks on another small-screen smartphone and then spend nearly the same amount to eventually replace my 7" tablet -- nor can I imagine carrying both a 6" smartphone and a 7" tablet around.

</comment><comment> norea-armozel I have a Kindle Fire HDX at home which I love, but I have to be honest and state that it wasn't a good purchase for me. I do read on my tablet and browse the web, but I can easily do that from my desktop and my phone (imo the phone is more useful since what I browse for is usually in regards to what I'm seeing or doing at the time). So, I can't see myself buying a replacement for my tablet once it dies. When that happens, I may get a Kindle Paper White, but that's because I like to read. But I honestly don't know a single person that owns a tablet other than myself and my mother (She reads far more than I do). So, I think the tablet craze was a fluke more than anything.

</comment><comment><USER4> If the trend towards phablets is real and medium-long term, what is dying - Phones or Tablets?

I also think the people reading this list, for the most part, aren't the target market for Tablets. Netbooks, if they were allowed to live, would have pre-empted the tablet market. As they were killed, we have entertainment/casual devices that work well with non-techies. Lots of money satisfying non-techies. But the renewal cycle sucks for such people, particularly if there's no hardware reason to do so.</comment>


Amazon Go: Computer Vision Based Brick-and-Mortar Convenient Store - <AUTHOR> http://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazoncom-unveils-self-driving-brick-and-mortar-convenience-store/ <comment><USER2> So, theories? RFID labels at the exit, computer vision to track which items you grab? Any of this coupled with tracking phone location?

The fact that they speak about "supported phones" would point to some radio / location stuff going on.

<comment><USER3> Based on the video, it looks like you use the Amazon app to identify yourself at the turnstile when you enter (via NFC?). The 'supported phones' bit seems to refer to phones that can run the Amazon app. Once you're identified, the cameras in the store can associate your image with the Amazon account that was presented and track you around the store. Each item that you grab is added to your virtual cart (unclear if this step is pure computer vision). The act of walking out causes you to be billed for items placed in your cart -- the cameras know you walked up to a turnstile, which activated. I don't believe the phone itself is used after you first enter the store, which eliminates a whole host of potential problems: app crashes, battery dying, losing service, etc. That's my take, anyway.

<comment><USER2> It is shown in the video that the turnstile scans a QR code presented in the screen of the app. So if that's the only interaction (no idea!) it seems that the phone could be replaced by an NFC card or similar "dumb" device.</comment></comment></comment>


Why are record levels of CEO's quitting and selling stock? - <AUTHOR> Is anybody worried their tech companies are about to be downsizing? <comment><USER2> IDK. Thom Hartmann keeps harping on a cataclysmic crash MacGuffin to seem like a Nostradamus or sell books, but the period between crashes typically averages 7 years; the US is long overdue but I wonder if the Fed's levers are making whatever or whenever that happens worse. Or MMT-based policies make recessions magically disappear (doubtful).

Oil consumption is down to 2009 levels.

Americans, except billionaires, are poorer than they've been since the turn of the 20th c. This means less disposable income and consumption.

To the Q: I'd need to see a comprehensive table of ex-CEOs of Fortune 2000 and top 500 privately-held companies over the past 15 years or so and their stock events (privately-held if they have any data) to see if there's a pattern.

</comment><comment><USER3> I think it's just a wave. When a new tech hits, like TVs, transistors, robots, internet, touchphones, there's a wave of startups that come in to capitalize on it. They solve the obvious problems. Another wave comes in solving more niche problems. Eventually most of the gold is extracted from the gold rush and they sell off what they have.

It's not unusual. It sounds more like companies with 30% year on year growth have finally matured into massive companies with 8% year on year growth, and transition from expansion based CEOs to those who are good at managing larger companies.

</comment><comment><USER4> Can you gives us some numbers that show that this is actually happening?

</comment><comment><USER5> Examples?

</comment><comment><USER6> We just did a round of stimulus by allowing cash to be repatriated and cutting taxes and rates. This stuff really benefited large companies.

The benefits from those types of things aren't lasting benefits and do not last, it makes sense for people to take gains.

</comment><comment><USER7> Trump wasn't lying when he said he was going to drain the swamp, a lot of famous and powerful people are connected to horrifying stuff, there's more info about this out there if you want to find it</comment>


GitHub Awesome-Starless Repositories. - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/xiaoluoboding/awesome-starless <comment><AUTHOR> A curated list of awesome repositories which stargazers less but has a huge used by.</comment>


Show HN: Cluvio – Free SQL analytics for your business data - <AUTHOR> https://www.cluvio.com/?ref=producthunt <comment><AUTHOR> Hey there, after launching Cluvio a bit more than three months ago ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12684089](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12684089)) we have some exciting news to share today. We just launched a set of new pricing plans that make Cluvio accessible to everyone (and their moms).

Cluvio is a cloud analytics platform that allows you to run SQL queries against your database, visualize the results as beautiful dashboards and share these dashboards within your company.

As of today, Cluvio pricing starts with a completely free plan, Cluvio Free! That's right, completely FREE and you can use it to securely analyze your business data and create interactive dashboards within minutes.

The next step up is a Cluvio Starter plan, also brand new, which targets single analysts that want to have a powerful tool to analyze and visualize data, but do not need to share the results with others. The Starter plan has unlimited query executions and allows to use SQL Alerts and create more dashboards.

Cluvio Pro, already existing, and a new Cluvio Business plan together target the teams that create analytics to share, with internal users or externally.

Please let me know if you have any questions, comments or feedback, will be happy to answer!</comment>


AI And Big Data Could Power a New War on Poverty - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/01/opinion/ai-and-big-data-could-power-a-new-war-on-poverty.html <comment><USER2> The author runs the Stanford Poverty & Technology Lab ([https://inequality.stanford.edu/stanford-technology- poverty-...](https://inequality.stanford.edu/stanford-technology-poverty-lab)) which looks quite ambitious and potentially impactful.

In light of on-going efforts to address bias in AI (Moritz Moritz Hardt's class as a reference [https://fairmlclass.github.io/](https://fairmlclass.github.io/)), I was surprised that there was little discussion of the pitfalls. I appreciated the optimism though.</comment>