I got arrested in Kazakhstan and represented myself in court - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@peretzp/i-got-arrested-in-kazakhstan-and-represented-myself-in-court-d3764fb738f1#.e2fu9nw2w <comment><USER2> This dude just grassed on all the people who bent the rules to be nice to him. With pictures. For a moment of blog fame. Very uncool.

<comment><USER3> The guy sounds like an asshole. His bemused depictions of friendly border guards reek of self-superiority and total lack of empathy.

<comment><USER4> Try spending even a night in a U.S. jail, or worse yet, any considerable amount of time in a US jail while awaiting trail, and ONLY THEN can you appreciate how easy he got off. Before reading the article, my gut told me that he was going to get it much harder in Russia. I was surprised to find out how humanely he was treated compared to the way we treat suspects/inmates in the U.S.

<comment><USER5> He was in Kazakhstan....

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Great read. I've never been in a situation where a bribe might have helped and so it's good to get some idea of "how bribes work" for possible future reference.

I have noticed that it seems valuable to project being "poorer" rather than "richer" when traveling. Naively it might seem like throwing money around would grease all sorts of wheels but the opposite has been my experience (although probably I just don't have enough money to throw around to really grease the wheels).

<comment><USER7> John MacAfee has a great guide. Context is important. You need to know the situation, you have to be situationally aware. You can't just start showing money (maybe alcohol or other "currency" depending on their penchants are more apt). You have to know a bit about the locals. See [http://www.whoismcafee.com/the-travel-guide/](http://www.whoismcafee.com/the- travel-guide/)

<comment><USER8> Serious question: given how ... unstable ... McAfee seems to be, how reliable is this guide?

<comment> at-fates-hands Just because he's paranoid schizophrenic now does not lessen his experiences before his brain went AWOL. Considering he's dealt with some pretty hostile governments and government officials, I'd say the advice is pretty solid.

On a side note, when I was in telecom, My boss (who had been in the industry for 15 years) used to tell me about working for MCI and doing surveying and laying copper in several middle eastern countries. He told me some stories that would make the hair on your neck stand up.

He said it was an open secret that MCI was giving his team suitcases of cash to bribe officials and the military just to allow them to do their job. Stories of being pulled over at gunpoint, negotiating with military people and being able to talk through the process of a bribe was something he always maintained was part of the day-to-day survival game they played.

<comment><USER9> Being schizophrenic does not mean that the brain/mind is "AWOL". Schizophrenics endure experience like the rest of us. The idea that the insane have "no mind" is an old-fashioned, dehumanizing idea which should not be tolerated even on HN where everyone is of course young, healthy and overconfident. (!)

<comment><USER10> I was thinking about this just the other day, the term "demented" literally means "with mind removed".

<comment><USER11> Actually it means "out of one's mind"

<comment><USER10> Huh. So it does, thanks for that!

...as a tangent, I'm impressed and slightly weirded out by the fact that I googled for "etymology demented" and it answered directly with an etymological tree for the word. Google's getting smarter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I don't know even what to make of this... The preamble suggests that Kazakhstan justice was superior to American justice, but after reading the whole story I'm like... dude, grow a sense of self-responsibility. It's not like your visa expiring was a surprise... you knew exactly when it was going to happen, and YOU CHOSE to violate it without giving yourself any wiggle room. Then you willingly participated in a corrupt system, rewarding those who profit from it.

It would have been so much easier and involve less questionable ethics to just leave more than 24 hours in advance.

<comment><USER13> I find this response, and the suggestions, exemplifying why Kazakhstan justice (as expressed in the story, I don't know how it's in general) is superior to American justice.

It's the ability to take the law and regulations lightly, when they're not that serious, and be humane about it.

I mean writing: "YOU CHOSE to violate it", with added emphasis, as if having a visa expiring on the same day you leave a place (and literally while you're on a vehicle leaving it) is some kind of huge crime...

<comment><USER14> All this does is provide random and selective justice for those who can pay the bribe.

What about the visum expiring the day before you leave? Two days? The law has to draw a line somewhere. It is the obligation of the person to stay clear of that line. If the visum duration is too short, just make all visa valid for 16 days rather than 15 days, and then enforce that line equally for everybody. Once corruption has taken a hold it tends to encroach on everything.

<comment><USER15> > visum

Is this supposed to be some kind of faux-Latin plural? I defy you to find an English dictionary that contains this word.

<comment><USER16> Apparently, it is the singular of visa in German.

<comment><USER17> German, singular: visum _or_ visa, both work. Plural: visa _or_ visas.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Ooh, I have a relevant story that I've never shared before.

I was living in Kazakhstan for a while and had to take the overnight train to Kyrgyzstan for a visa run. They're very old trains. I woke up around 3am and had to use the restroom. The train had just stopped at a station in the middle of nowhere, and it was the middle of winter. I went to the restroom. I flushed. But when I looked down through the toilet, I saw snow and train tracks. These trains didn't have anything to collect waste, they just flushed straight onto the ground. I immediately heard some loud whistles and shouting, and footsteps.

I rushed back to the bed and hoped that no-one saw me, but it was too late, and then we spent the next 30 minutes talking to soldiers. I wasn't sure if they were asking for extra money, or if it was something we needed to pay anyway because we were crossing the border.

It was a tiny train station in the middle of nowhere, and we had no SIM cards, so I started thinking about what we would do if they kicked us off the train. I was actually kind of excited about the idea of building an igloo and sleeping there overnight, and then going to get some help in the morning. That would have been a better story, but in the end they just let us go.

So don't flush any ex-soviet train toilets when you're stopped at a station in Central Asia.

<comment><USER19> > But don't flush any ex-soviet train toilets when you're stopped at a train > station.

Not just ex-Soviet trains, British ones too. Newer and renovated trains have sewage tanks, but older trains flush directly onto the tracks (and often therefore have a sign in the toilet asking you not to flush when stopped at a station). According to the BBC, as of 2015 this applied to about 10% of the trains in service: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk- england-30541015](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30541015)

The tabloids periodically have a field day with it when people notice again that these trains are still not quite phased out. E.g. in 2014, there was a minor sensation about the quantity of "fertiliser" on the tracks producing tomato growth: [http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/trains-dump-much- human-...](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/trains-dump-much-human- waste-4445188)

<comment><USER20> Almost all modern Indian trains are like this too. But I dont think you will get into trouble for shitting on a station.

<comment><USER21> Open defecation is such a big problem. There is a big government programme just for this. I hope it succeeds and rids us of this shame.

<comment><USER20> I really doubt if that problem will ever be tackled. In cities it is a logistical problem. Standing in line for 5 minutes for a proper toilet v/s shitting on a track right away. There is no way on earth we can build sufficient number of toilets for the people in Mulund or Dharavi slums. There are politically incorrect solutions such as letting people defecate in open but provide slightly better facilities which will help tackle all the shit.

In village however the problem is purely cultural. I worked with some NGO which build proper flush toilets but people would prefer to use them as goat shelters. Their priorities are different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I'm surprised, that a western man is so ready to participate in corruption. I live in Kazakhstan and I would be very afraid to bribe an official, it could become worse very fast and if you are caught with that, you'll have to bribe much more people or end up in a jail with a very serious offence. I definitely don't recommend to bribe an official in Kazakhstan, usually it's better and safer to follow a law.

<comment><USER23> I agree. It's very naive and the original poster is lucky that he didn't end up in serious trouble.

<comment><USER13> Anybody who thinks it's "very naive" has never travelled much in such places to see how things work, or went to some kind of boy scouts or the seminary school...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Great story!

5 years ago we went on a Mongol Rally. Driving European vehicle through the Stans makes you easy prey for local policeman. My co-driver had a strategy of befriending them and sharing small gifts (pens, lighters etc.). Most expensive were Tajik GBAO guards, they got headlamps. During my shifts I had 2 encounters but played dumb, even though I'm native in similar language and could communicate. No bribes given. :)

Had a great time in Semey, KZ and later across the border in Barnaul. Must go back some day, driving, of course:). If you love big skies of US west, you'll be in heaven in Kazakhstan.

<comment><USER25> Would love to read about your experience on the Mongol Rally!

<comment><USER26> The Mongol Rally is on my bucket list, but there is no way I could ever find like minded people to do it with.

<comment><USER24> Follow their FB page, there are many people who are looking for a partner, or additional team member to share costs.

In fact, if you need to spend a month in a car, it might be better with a person you don't know (friend, relative...). There will be too much information you don't need to know. :)

Another #protip: the ultimate "get out of jail" card is the red MAN UTD t-shirt.

It's the better universal value than cigarettes, pens or crisp $20 notes. If we had few of those (fakes, obviously) we would've seriously cut our mechanic bills and few other expenses along the way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Great read, but I don't buy it. I've not been to Kazakhstan but traveled Africa and South America extensively. I've been to war zones. A lot of things don't add up:

* A cop takes a bribe, is surprised the tourist is in some computer and then returns the bribe? I've never ever encountered a cop who takes bribes but does not know how the system works. They are not this stupid. This, by the way, is the best way to avoid bribing: Point out you accept punishment and let them work out the consequences for them - paperwork, getting you to jail etc. All this for a visa that expired a few hours ago? I'm sure they'll find a less work-intensive way to let you go.

* Cops being happy to have some "criminal" around for getting drunk and they even pay? No, they rather take your money and get drunk with their friends.

* The girl's story did not make much sense (abortion, breaking up, being raped, leaving school, being arrested, being dug on by a male guard while making out with a female guard and all of this within 24h? wait, what, I am missing some connections here).

I'm not saying that the base of the story ain't true, but there is, IMHO, a lot of storytelling in there, too.

<comment><USER28> If you read his story about his SF arrest you'll see he and his friend were drunkenly interfering with paramedics trying to treat an accident victim, even after the police told them to stop. He then threatened to commit suicide while in jail and got put on psychiatric hold.

And somehow he turns that into a story of injustice. So yes, he likes storytelling.

<comment><USER29> Um, what? I read the story of his SF arrest. That's... not what happened.

He was arrested because the police resented that he did not immediately 'respect my authoritah'. He was not interfering with paramedics. He was a safe distance away.

He got put on psychiatric hold by the police as retribution for insisting it is reasonable for him to have the right to see a doctor for medical treatment.

Medical treatment which was only required because the police physically assaulted him.

It's very hard to imagine a retelling of his story which doesn't involve substantial police misconduct.

<comment><USER28> In the time it took you to make that throwaway account you could have read this:

[http://sfist.com/2014/02/18/young_tech_worker_who_called_911...](http://sfist.com/2014/02/18/young_tech_worker_who_called_911_on.php)

or this:

[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/779439/police_report_ann...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/779439/police_report_annotated.pdf)

LOL, he stated he was a medic and tried to push his way past the police.

<comment><USER29> That's a... selective reading of that police report.

The idea that it is right for police to violently enforce their every whim if one does not immediately obey all commands is a serious problem.

For one, only a small subset of all possible commands a police officer could make are commands which one is legally obligated to follow.

Secondly, I think we want a society where police choose constructive dialog over violence.

Nothing about this incident was necessary or proportionate.

Unnecessary violence has made policing dangerous lately. A few years ago it was more dangerous to supervise lawncare, be a taxi driver, collect garbage, or be a handyman than it was to be a police officer.

I wonder if this year's escalations will lead to policing actually becoming a dangerous profession. :(

<comment><USER30> >Secondly, I think we want a society where police choose constructive dialog over violence.

seeing how deep the police got addicted to violence one can only wonder whether it is possible for them to get sober at all.

I mean you can't make that up - [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning- mix/wp/2016/07/2...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning- mix/wp/2016/07/21/fla-police-shoot-black-man-with-his-hands-up-as-he-tries-to- help-autistic-patient/) . Just make sure to watch the video. The police tried to shoot the autistic patient even after the therapist clearly explained to them everything, and there were absolutely no danger to anybody. The police screwed the shot [fortunately] and instead of killing the autistic patient they hit the therapist in the leg.

<comment><USER31> I thought it was a scapegoating situation: the light-skinned guy didn't do what they wanted, so they shot the black guy.

<comment><USER30> it gets even "better" \- the police who shot black therapist is now saying that he was trying to save the therapist from the autistic patient. If not for the video, we'd never knew how really low their lies are. The police demonstrate all the symptoms of addiction - doing their drug (violence) and lying about it in the face of obviously contradicting evidence.

[http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2016/07/22/487027848/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2016/07/22/487027848/north-miami-officer-was-aiming-at-man-with-autism- union-chief-says)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Is that picture going to get Irlan in trouble ?

<comment><USER33> I hope not, but it seems to me that not taking photos if explicitly asked not to is _the least_ you can do for a guy who, upon arresting you treats you like a best friend, helps you to get refund for unused ticket and buys you bear and coffee. Hell, it's actually only human to restrain from taking photos of somebody who doesn't want to, but doing so to that Irlan guy?

The most repulsive thing is author doesn't do that because of malevolence. He just honestly doesn't care.

It's funny that probably being a type of person that I dislike so much, may be actually helping him to write a story I like so much.

<comment><USER34> I personally don't find it morally wrong to take pictures of someone who was pressuring you for bribes. My "best friends" don't try to extort me for money. Irlan was only nice when he realized the author could provide entertainment and had very little assets...

<comment><USER35> "Extortion" is not the right word here. The OP was _genuinely_ in hot water due to their own actions, Irlan was offering a potential way out.

It would be extortion if Irlan had (say) planted a kilo of heroin in his bags and then demanded money.

<comment><USER36> But it's still bribery and corruption.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Something similar happened to me. I was a citizen of Uzbekistan at the time. I was about to fly out of Almaty. When the lady at the checkpoint saw my passport, she asked where my exit visa was. I never knew all the Uzbek citizens needed one to leave the post Soviet territory. So, I was denied my seat on the plane. Had to renew my ticket for $50. Come next day, another lady at the checkpoint says the same thing - without the exit visa I am not going anywhere. The plane was already boarding and I was about to miss it again. She saw me getting agitated and says "why don't you talk to this man here?". He said everything could be arranged for mere $300. Even though I was an actual student and poor as a church mouse, I had to pay it. I was let out.

<comment><USER8> How much would it have cost to get an exit visa?

<comment><USER38> In dollars, I would guess less. In hours, likely a lot longer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I'm amazed by the amount of negative comments.

In my opinion, this is a great, well written traveling story, where no objective, willful harm was caused by the author. What I got from it was that a book should not be judged by its cover, it's important to try and relate to people when traveling, and violence against women is a horrible problem.

If the names weren't changed, you could say he was a bit naive (although the odds of this ever reaching Irlan seem somewhat small to me), but ultimately, he portrayed all of the people he met in a positive light that makes me want to visit Kazakhstan.

I think being in such a situation, out of one's comfort zone, gives great perspective on what really matters (although it's not for everyone).

</comment><comment><USER40> Heartwarming story.

What I've experienced is, all over the world, people will try to help: if you seem like you need help and don't have all the answers/money.

For travelers -- if you know the local language, speak it. I had a scary experience in the same part of the word and managed to "ingenious" my way out of it. Speakign the local language just helps people identify with you more.

treat them like a person and they'll treat you like you are a person.

</comment><comment><USER41> Reading this and then going back and reading his SF arrest story (linked in the article) is a real contrast.

<comment><USER42> Is that story legit?

<comment><USER43> It happened, but whether it happened like he said is up for debate. There's reports from others out there that he actually was being drunk, disruptive to rescue operations, and elbowed a cop in the eye.

Yet another reason to have body cameras -- no he said, they said.

<comment><USER44> It seems like body cams keep mysteriously getting disconnected before something goes down though

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> All ex-communist countries were poverty is the status quo have a similar way of dealing with things. We call it bribe, but most of us are on the _bright side_ of the planet, financially speaking at least.

If Irlan didn't wanted to be bribed there would no discussion. All the chit- chat was in order to induce the victim to bribe him.

I heard much more salty stories from my father who was a Businessmen in the Balkan area in the 90s and 00s. After 2002 the situation in the Balkan area improved a lot, but it's not uncommon for police officers to get bribed, it's their way to make ends meet and the easier way for a foreigner to _get things done_.

</comment><comment><USER46> Cute story, but wonder if the outcome would be the same if the author hadn't originally been Russian and didn't speak Russian.

<comment><USER47> While speaking a common language usually (but not always) helps, being a US citizen is the way more important part of the story.

Police in the United States are used to generally treating everyone (including foreigners) with impunity, while cops in other countries dealing with US citizens are more wary of causing a diplomatic incident. There's also the novelty factor: people from high status countries are seen as interesting, and the more uncommon your presence is there, the more friendly interest officials take.

He's making a mistaken inference by assuming that how the police treat US citizens also reflects how they treat locals.

<comment><AUTHOR> Everything you say is true. I fully acknowledge that. I hope it's not implied otherwise.

<comment><USER47> I still think it's a great story that's funny and well told while being respectful to the people involved. It's definitely indicative of a meaningful part of the culture that's very different from the western/american bureaucratic mindset.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> Can anyone tell me what this means?

> ...in another ten years, you will see, we'll be living like Arabs.

<comment><USER49> The future of Kazakhstan is highly unstable. The current slightly benevolent dictator has no good processor and the development of Kazakhstan is mostly dependent of oil, so when renewable energy becomes the norm and rhe president dies in the coming ten years the country will probably implode.

<comment><USER50> > has no good processor

Do you mean he is stupid or that Kakakistan doesn't have an oil refinery or that he doesn't have a successor?

<comment><USER51> I think he meant to write predecessor but what he really meant was successor. Potentially confusing similar words for non-English speakers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> This reminds me of Bert Kreischers' story about his travels in Russia as part of a language immersion trip.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PAtFsJY5q0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PAtFsJY5q0)

<comment><USER53> One of my favorite stories from mother land.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> This story reflects most poorly on the author himself.

</comment><comment><USER55> "I could have called the US embassy, but from past experience I knew their help was often useless, and occasionally even harmful."

This was an interesting throw away. I wonder what his experience was.

<comment><USER56> His other article is about how to never call 911 if you see someone injured because you'll get arrested.

Good reading material, but I'm probably going to call the embassy (and 911).

<comment> nommm-nommm The author was being a total dick in that other story so his conclusion was incorrect.

At the very least its very impolite to hang around and gaggle at a police investigation or someone getting aid from the EMS. At that point you are only getting in the way.

I've never personally gotten assistance from a US Embassy but I know people who have and they were genuinely helpful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> for god sake, the author has to at very least change names of the guys who sincerely helped him to avoid serious troubles.

<comment><USER58> Are you sure he didn't already do that?

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Hi guys! I was recommended on some website to firstname.lastname@example.com_ when trying to hack my wife's cell phone without physical contact. He was really helpful and now I have access to much more than expected, contact him, he's absolutely reliable and efficient...He also hacks from destroying data and evidence against you,changing school and university grades,expunging your driving and criminal records to someone who is trying to blackmail you...etc.Tell him Robertson referred you

</comment><comment><USER60> I work too hard to live with a cheating husband..As soon as I saw the signs I was able to get a PI who recommended me to firstname.lastname@example.com_ who helped me to hack my husband's internet habits..He hacked my husband email,phone calls,text messages,iCloud,dating websites(tinder) and found the truth about him..I am happy now that he is gone from my life,at least I can breath well now!! Tell him Michelle Mallette referred you

</comment><comment><USER61> what a wonderful story. really puts arguing about typesafe frameworks in perspective..

A+++ would read again.

</comment><comment><USER62> I met him back then in 2014, he has helped me with more than five exploits, he is a great guy and a competent professional. I feel everybody should have him as a hackerbuddy. just add [firstname.lastname@example.com]on your gmail and contact him for anything you might need..Tell him Ann Albano referred you

</comment><comment><USER63> The author is very gifted writer. I was hoping for a quick skim but I could not stop reading.

</comment><comment><USER64> "He who represents himself has a fool for a client" \- Abraham Lincoln.

</comment><comment><USER65> We are programmers and architects - do not bend the rules, we made them, your bending suggests flaws and imperfection and is offending.

Trains shall run on tracks. Spontanious agents are a loss of controll. The horror.

<comment><USER65> The downvoting behaviour so predictable. The irony of a controlling agent, hating the idea of beeing controllable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> a) Sensationalist headline - something that seems amazing to someone who is not e.g. russian - but the person is actually russian

b) Outing the photo of a cute 18 yo girl "who just got raped"

Yes - an interesting story - but this is extreme clickbait likely for profit. And problematic in other dimensions. This guy is an opportunist who does not seem to care about other people.

<comment><AUTHOR> A) This was a pretty unusual experience for me. And I think it is unusual for the readers.

B) I can see your point. She did ask me to take photos and to tell her story. I have not been in touch with her in a while. I will deliberate for a bit and consider taking down her photos.

There is no profit motive. I am not paid for this story.

<comment><USER67> _Irlan (left) wouldn't let me take pictures, but occasionally I'd sneak one in._

I'm not sure what to think about this. Corruption is bad. But this particular official's heart seemed to be in the right place, and he treated you with respect, honesty, and generosity, even when he didn't have to. He doesn't seem to have been repaid in kind.

I _want_ to say something like, "Hopefully Irlan isn't on the wrong side of the courtroom as a result of your story," but on the other hand... corruption is bad, and I don't want the legal system in my own country to work this way.

So, did you do a good thing by exposing Irlan and his colleagues, or a bad thing by betraying them? I honestly don't know. You made me empathize with someone I wouldn't ordinarily empathize with, and then you stuck a knife in his back. Which is interesting.

Parenthetically, if you're a US citizen, you're subject to the FCPA, which can potentially be a pretty big deal. Google it if you're not familiar with the acronym. I don't know if the FCPA's reach extends to bribing low-level immigration officials, but it's worth looking into if you plan to leave the article up.

<comment><USER68> IANAL,

Is the FCPA applicable outside the context of business transactions?

<comment><USER67> Dunno. However, the Feds have a long history of defining "business transactions" in whatever terms suit their purposes at the moment. (Wickard v. Filburn comes to mind, for one thing.) And certainly export regulations don't make a distinction between commercial and private transactions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Is this real?

</comment><comment><USER70> and the award for biggest snitch of the year goes to OP......

can you like take this down?</comment>


OpenTable Restaurant Performance Data - <AUTHOR> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRbPuAyJy74UmbF6kLXFGXDk2eX3N6zvRLzxPamG8FAA3E-SVqMOMSIht-eYEF_4qrNGOJuPbDjTsPD/pubhtml# <comment><USER2> Brutal. Restaurants are already often hanging on by a thread.

Over 400 closed in SF last year[1] due to the high cost of doing business there - some that had been operating for over 20 years. And that was with normal demand! Imagine now that their traffic has dropped 51%?

[https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/411-restaurant- closures-...](https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/411-restaurant-closures-San- Francisco-Jardiniere-14928007.php)

<comment><USER3> Canada rolled out $10B in business financing just today to give businesses like restaurants a lifeline through this challenging and unusual time. The money is being pushed out via BDC (which is like the US Small Business Administration) and EDC, an export development agency that provides guarantees so that banks can lend to risky borrowers to support exports. On a GDP-scaled basis, the Canadian financial package is the equivalent of a $90B package in the US -- nearly twice what Trump's administration is offering.

<comment><USER4> Switzerland did the same, they offered 10B in help. They also waived a lot of bureaucratic paperwork for companies wanting to apply "Kurzarbeit". I hope people take advantage of it and not in a bad way.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wish this administration would do something like zero interest SBA crisis loans for this situation. I've already seen two of my favorite places where I live shut down indefinitely (I personally know one of the chefs at one of them). These places really do operate on razor thin margins and count on major holidays like St. Patrick's Day, and the summer in general, to make it through the year. The Fed's $1.5T "injection of liquidity" falls on deaf ears to these people.

<comment><USER6> Likely won't happen. Historically, these bailouts are given to big business, and the small businesses are subject to free market rules (adapt or die)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I saw drops on Mondays, I initially thought it was due to a year-on-year weekday mismatch, but the analysis is sound

> For year-on-year comparisons by day, we compare to the same day of week from > the same week in the previous year. For example, we'd compare Tuesday of > week 11 in 2020 to Tuesday of week 11 in 2019.

Interesting that most have a double dip, with a big drop on 3/2 and then again on 3/9 which is ongoing

<comment><USER8> Monday's are big news days with markets reacting to weekend news, businesses making worldwide directives, and the general dystopian state the world is slipping into.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Most Restaurants don't provide paid time off for sickness and the back of the house employees make near min wage. Seems like a huge risk to eat out during a pandemic.

<comment><USER10> Even in cities like San Francisco[1] and Seattle[2] where all employees must receive paid sick leave, demand fell off a cliff (understandably!). There are great arguments for offering and/or legislating paid sick leave, but if it's made any impact on demand, the impact is too small to matter.

[1]: [https://sfgov.org/olse/paid-sick-leave-ordinance- pslo](https://sfgov.org/olse/paid-sick-leave-ordinance-pslo) [2]: [http://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/LaborStandards/...](http://www.seattle.gov/Documents/Departments/LaborStandards/PSST%20QA%20%2006-29-18.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Data analysis does not need to be complicated to tell a story. This is simple, relevant, and paints the whole picture. Thanks for sharing.

</comment><comment><USER12> Kudos to OpenTable for publishing this data. I've used OpenTable a few times before - I will even more going forward.

</comment><comment><USER13> Can someone enlighten me on the effects this will have on the economy?

IANA economist, but it feels like I'm still relatively net-zero with my spending. My family didn't go out to eat, we spent less on gas, but we spent more on groceries at our local grocery store, and there's a little more in our bank account.

People in the hospitality/tourism industry are certainly going through a lot of pain. If people didn't spend money in those sectors, where did it go?

<comment><USER14> The money doesn't have to go anywhere. Even slowing down how many hands a dollar passes through in a year leads to a contraction. More info here: [https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/velocity.asp](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/velocity.asp)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> In a similar vein, it's crazy to me to compare traffic for the Seattle area compared to an the same weekday a year ago.

[https://imgur.com/a/8NHdDf8](https://imgur.com/a/8NHdDf8)

It's like a ghost town out there.

The couple of restaurateurs I've talked to don't know how they're going to keep the doors open much longer.

<comment><USER16> Tom Douglas [1] has closed 12 of his 13 Seattle restaurants. Only one remains open to honor the terms of a contract. [2]

[1]: [https://www.tomdouglas.com/](https://www.tomdouglas.com/)

[2]: [https://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/seattle-chef- to...](https://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/seattle-chef-tom-douglas- is-closing-his-restaurants-temporarily-due-to-the-new-coronavirus/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I made a quick visualization based on this data: relative number of coronavirus cases per state and restaurant performance from 3/11-3/12 [https://twitter.com/LechMazur/status/1238701800997490690](https://twitter.com/LechMazur/status/1238701800997490690)

</comment><comment><USER18> Is this only dine-in or does it include delivery also? Both of them should have different patterns.

<comment><USER19> Dine in only. Reservations and walkins. (Source: I created this spreadsheet with our data team)

<comment><USER20> Could it be that people just don't bother to place a reservation if they feel like restaurants won't be busy due to a virus, but they still go there

<comment><USER21> This includes walk-ins - anyone who sits down in the restaurant to eat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This has a huge impact on the restaurants bottom line, but honestly, surprised the numbers aren't worse. I hope they can weather these bad times.

</comment><comment><USER23> Does anyone know if they quit updating or if it just takes until later in the day to post? I see up to and including March-15 but as of now, 11:07a CDT, there is nothing for 3/16\. What do you all know / think?

</comment><comment><USER24> COVID-19 is going to wreck economies. We are all thinking that closures and social distancing will end in a month, maybe two. This process will unfold over many months, perhaps years. Every city and country is handling this differently. We have containment measures in some US cities and states and then Florida hosting an event with 50,000 visitors. Sure, we can reduce infections in North Carolina, but then these 50,000 will disperse and bring infections back again through out the country. The only end game here is everyone gets infected, we develop a vaccine, or in unison we lockdown every country and city for a fixed period of time, say 45-60 days (never going to happen). And if COVID-19 mutates? We restart the whole process. I bet many of us are still in lock down mode come fall 2020 and even into 2021.

<comment><USER25> No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible. That's okay, because they're snowflakes, not people. People should have enough respect for their fellow humans (and for themselves!) not to attend any large events at this time.

Source: haven't interacted in-person with another human in the last ~30 hours precisely because staying home is the right thing to do for our fellow humans at this time. Leading by example is one of the most powerful ways to lead.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> im surprised new york dropped by so much (up to 50%). Is everyone just cooking in their micro-appartments now? Or calling takeout?

</comment><comment><USER27> From Japan with Love: it is irresponsible to go to a restaurant at this time.

A population's safety is worth more than a couple small businesses going into mothball mode. If you want to support said small business your task is clear: ensure 110% you and your family does not get infected. Risking infection just to "save" a business is an oxymoron. These businesses are at risk because of the infections, their pain will continue until the entire population treats the virus seriously and contains it.

If you want to help restaurants: stay home.

<comment><USER28> There has to be a trade-off between "social distancing" and being a productive human being which can afford to buy food and medicine and can go to the store to get the goods.

One could make an argument that is more socially responsible to go to a small restaurant than to a crowded store.

<comment><USER29> as stated maybe that sounds true, but you can visit a crowded store once with one person and then feed a family of multiple people for a week (perhaps 21 meals).

Multiple people have to visit a restaurant once for each 1 meal.

So on the whole it would seem to scale much better if 1 person per household visits the store once per week, and the store should also not be super "crowded" if everyone is doing the same.

<comment><USER28> sure, but in practice that ain't gonna happen. My point was about an average trip to a restaurant vs average shopping.

If we are talking about the scenario with the minimal possible risk a restaurant could still beat the shop. You are going to drive through or pick up a pizza that you order online, so you spend a few minutes per meal with a limited number of people, say, for 21 meals, you have contacted 50 people. No need to touch trolleys, bags, boxes of pasta that people sneezed on. At home you reheat the pizza in the oven to kill the viruses.

> The Institute of Transportation Engineers estimates that one Walmart super > center receives 10,000 car visits per day

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Only down 50%? What kind of numbskulls are eating out at reservation restaurants during an uncontained pandemic?

<comment><USER8> I ate out twice today. Maybe a numbskull but I honestly don't care if I get this virus. I'm probably an idiot for that. But I don't access my personal risk any more than the normal flu seasons.

Edit to note; both restaurants were packed. I'm not alone in this mindset

<comment><USER31> FWIW: I'm not super anti-restaurant personally. I think a certain amount of social contact needs to be allowed (because it's inevitable) unless the numbers are clearly showing a huge risk (and they aren't yet -- cases are growing fast but outside of Milan not at a level where you're likely to see a sick person on a regular basis).

That said: your analysis is wrong. You can be contagious without showing symptoms, so the risk your assessing is NOT your "personal risk". You're increasing the risk to others too simply by being around them.

<comment><USER8> I know that. But guess what, that other person is out in public too. If their risk tolerance is such that they absolutely do not want to get sick & risk taking it home to their elderly parent, well that's fine but, they need to self quarantine. My point is I have a higher risk tolerance level in terms of contracting the virus from a non-symptomatic stranger in public because 1) i don't mind being sick enough to limit my activities 2) I can control my exposure to high risk people except in public spaces (again, if you're high risk, why are you in public - that's on you).

What you all are implying is that anything less than complete mandatory quarantine is the correct course of action. I just don't agree with this doomsday situation given what I know about this virus at this point. Even 2 degrees of separation from confirmed cases isn't being taken this seriously by the CDC/medical community. And you're essentially telling me I'm an idiot and negligent/malicious person for going out in public with no other reason to believe it's unsafe. I just happen to believe nobody is negligent in these situations and the responsibility lies with those at risk to reduce their risk profile.

<comment><USER31> > What you all are implying is that anything less than complete mandatory > quarantine is the correct course of action.

No. I'm saying you shouldn't be morally rationalizing it as you accepting a "personal" risk. Any contact is a risk to everyone, and you need to accept that.

NOR can you rationalize the chance of infecting others at the restaurant as "their personal risk", for exactly the same reason! Any transmission is a transmission, and it can lead to others. We're trying to keep the number of transmissions low so it doesn't grow out of control.

Now, again: unless you're in a major hot spot a single restaurant visit is (probably) a tolerable risk. But it is not and cannot be understood as a "personal" decision. It's still an increase in pandemic risk and needs to be understood that way.

<comment><USER8> > It's still an increase in pandemic risk and needs to be understood that way.

It's not mutual exclusive. I do get your point. But if restaurants are open and government allows them to remain open then this is a personal risk assessment as to how much public and other people handling your food you are willing to accept. That's what I mean.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I was hoping OpenTable released this data grouped by cuisine so we can better understand the claims that "racism" is causing more economic pain for Chinese restaurants.

<comment><USER33> Anecdotally, I have a friend who runs a middle eastern restaurant near a handful of popular Chinese restaurants. Early on, before there was any realistic threat to the area, but after it was known that a new disease was coming out of China, the middle eastern restaurant started surging in popularity because people were avoiding the Chinese ones all of a sudden.

I don't think it's racism, but I definitely believe the claim is real</comment></comment>


How Nextdoor courts police and public officials - <AUTHOR> https://www.citylab.com/equity/2020/05/nextdoor-local-partnerships-police-government-privacy-app/611827/ <comment><USER3> Nextdoor seems to be one of those sites that divide people, especially here. I'm more or less on the fence with this one. It seems decent enough in my neighborhood. Just this week it was the only place I could look to find out what exploded in the middle of the night (It was a transformer). The posts and comments tend to be pretty decent, usually. We seem to be avoiding the things that seem to be a problem in other areas, at least so far. Like the article says "Nextdoor has also been a hotbed of racial profiling and tattling." and I've not seen much of that here.

If anything this article says "Nextdoor is doing the same thing as every other company", which doesn't make me less likely to use the site from time to time.

I do agree with it though... "You want a police officer who has the best interests of their specific community at heart. You don't want a police officer who's brand loyal."

<comment><USER4> We had a pretty epic one about someone posting about a very, very suspicious white car going around the neighborhood at 3:30 am, pulling up to houses, etc. A long list of comments about how everything is going to hell, things aren't like they used to be, this is why you should buy a gun, blaming the local officials and political party, etc. Finally, a post:

Hi Tom, that white car is mine. I have delivered your newspaper every day for the last 5 years with it.

<comment><USER5> I think that is an exception. Most of what I see is heads up about people casing houses and testing car doors, usually with a short video demonstrating and backing up the claims. It's also helped with youth vandalism.

<comment><USER6> I don't think that we can judge whether that's an exception without going through a lot of data, esp. since different neighborhoods aren't likely to be at all consistent, esp with age and regional differences. I used to see a lot of cases of old racist neighbors jumping to conclusions or confabulating a bigoted story from a few inconclusive pieces of evidence that mostly amounted to "a black person is present in our neighborhood so they're probably a criminal." I don't look at NextDoor anymore.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> >they'd stay at the Hilton Union Square, eat and drink at Cultivar, share a tour of Chinatown, and receive matching Uniqlo jackets. All costs — a projected $16,900 for the group,

> "We look to you as influencers in your industry,"

So, turn local cops into part-time salespeople for Nextdoor, and its advertising clients. What could go wrong?

<comment><USER8> That's gross.

When I was a public employee traveling and interacting with external entities, our ethics rules prohibited us from accepting token gifts/swag valued >$5 or alcohol. Bottle of water at a meeting was ok, pen was ok, a beer was not, a Starbucks was questionable.

Accepting a jacket would be serious — potentially a referral to the IG and potential civil fine or criminal prosecution.

The public perception of a police official walking around with branded swag of significant value is pretty obvious.

<comment><USER9> That's what I was thinking too. Accepting gifts like that is one of the few things that could get a federal employee fired (among other things) very quickly. It is self and peer policed very heavily.

<comment><USER10> Most cops are not federal employees its very devolved in the USA with no common standards for training background checks and so on.

<comment><USER9> Usually state laws exist for the same thing. This was Arizona?

[https://www.stateandfed.com/docs/Gifts/az_GiftLaw.pdf](https://www.stateandfed.com/docs/Gifts/az_GiftLaw.pdf)

[https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azle...](https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/38/00504.htm)

I think these would apply.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I kept seeing a lot posts on Nextdoor from people who don't realize they are racist.

An example post on was where someone was complaining about a strange black man walking through their neighborhood.

Of course when you read the post carefully you would then come to realize, that this man was walking down the sidewalk, during the day, not bothering or talking to anyone, just minding his own business.

The reality is there was nothing particularly strange about this black man. Nothing in her description explains what he did that made him strange. She likely just finds it strange that a black man is walking through their neighborhood.

The other thing is these kinds of posts would always be followed up with someone along the lines of "keep an eye out for him" or "don't let him near your kids" or "call the police if you see him again" or that kind of fear- mongering nonsense.

I was honestly downright surprised how racist some of these people are.

<comment><USER12> Where do you live? This was also my experience moving to Spring, TX (a suburb of Houston), which I'm now leaving because of this type of attitude, among other things.

It's not just NextDoor, many areas are on average racist and insular. One time I was strolling my baby, and there was a group of well-dressed, but wrongly colored, people (men, women, and children!) walking down the street. A woman pulled over in her shiny car to ask me if I knew these people, and I walked on and ignored her question. When I looked back, she had pulled over and was on her cellphone.

<comment><USER11> I won't give the exact city, but let's say in the DFW area.

<comment><USER12> Maybe Texas is the problem and not NextDoor :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As reported, it seems that Nextdoor has a non-disclosure agreement that – without determined legal pushback – all but guarantees a chilling effect on how gov't agencies respond to public records requests, including when Nextdoor data is used to tip police investigations:

> _In the terms of Nextdoor's NDA, advisory council members are not allowed to > release public statements about the partnership without the consent of > Nextdoor, nor are they able to follow a court order to disclose any > information deemed confidential by Nextdoor without alerting the company > first. The document is the same one it gives to all business partners, the > company said, and is meant to protect confidential information like product > ideas._

> _...Though there are few rules prohibiting them from signing such a > document, the practice could help shroud government decisions from the > public, says Guariglia from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. And the > NDA's "heads-up" clause could give agencies the leeway to alert the company > before complying with freedom of information act requests._

> _After CityLab requested public records from Husted's department, he alerted > Nextdoor spokesperson Edie Campbell-Urban, though he said that he wasn't > doing so because of any terms of the NDA. When CityLab requested similar > records from Kagarise, the county's Office of Risk Management services > informed CityLab that it was delaying its answer, in part because they were > busy dealing with Covid-19. They said they would also be informing Nextdoor > Inc. of the public records request, pursuant to a state law protecting third > parties from information "not in the public interest" that would > "substantially and irreparably damage" the third party or the government._

</comment><comment><USER14> This company is far more dangerous than FB. They masquerade as a public service but are nothing more than a data mining trick to cull PII from as many as possible. I have read it described as Twitter for old people, but to me, its where the dumbest and the most gullible seem to hang. Its really a site for 'Karen's' to whine and complain about the most asinine things... But its their underlying business model that is atrocious. IMHO its the worst social media outlet around.

<comment><USER5> No doubt it's a data vacuuming powerhouse. Likely on the level of Facebook... but they are not only about complainers. It's like a town square. You get a heads up to what's going on. Changes, news, public issues, etc. it's useful but with some drawbacks.

<comment><USER14> My problem isnt the community, its the way they trick people into signing up and how they then collect and sell the data.

Many people actually think ND is a public service. And this article is a big reason as to why that is... IMHO we should not have these types of entities in bed with local municipalities as it erodes both the public's trust and also undermines the sanctity of government.

<comment><USER15> It's worth reading the privacy policy: [https://legal.nextdoor.com/us-privacy- policy-2020/](https://legal.nextdoor.com/us-privacy-policy-2020/) Not seeing any PII disclosure.

<comment><USER14> They collect and require your name and your actual home address (and they verify these) all as part of their required registration. What could be more PII than that? Seriously. What?

<comment><USER15> Right that makes sense that you need your name and address to verify. I'm not seeing the part where they sell that. That's what I meant by "disclosure". Sorry for the confusion.

<comment><USER14> My guess is that the TOS and PP are separated and offer different levels of disclosure based on "use"... For instance, going to ND.com is PP, using the service you agree to X,Y,Z...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Nextdoor is quickly becoming a detestable social network experience. I've noticed that over the last year or so, it's almost exclusively negativity or fear based in its content. Most posts are either people complaining or tattling on something that is a minor nuisance at best or fear mongering for larger issues. I've seen very, very limited positive benefit from the platform. It strikes me as something that had great potential, but is just turning in to a cesspool as it grows.

<comment><USER15> What are some of the things that you are hoping to see going on in your neighborhood?

<comment><USER16> Information seeking, curiosity, chances to share in experience, people seeking help, people offering help, fellowship.

<comment><USER17> I see those on my Nextdoor everyday.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Signed up for Nextdoor, but the noise level was not good. I muted everyone but our local Chief of Police.

Ideally, local officials would have their own email list but then there is a discoverability problem.

It is not that I hate Nextdoor, but I put effort into eliminating interruptions and noise in my life so I can concentrate on the people and things I love.

The attention (and surveillance) economy makes a lot of money via non-obvious data use.

</comment><comment><USER19> > in calmer times, Nextdoor has also been a hotbed of racial profiling and > tattling.

I've seen this on NextDoor myself. The most innocent Nosy Nancy post I saw was along the lines of: "Observed teenagers walking eastbound with backpacks. Suspicious. Took note, will call police." We live near a school. It was closing time. They were walking home. Add in the homeless in general, the Goodwill donation truck that seconds as a recycling center ["oh no, a homeless magnet!"], and so on and it's a real life NIMBY parody of 'Toxic Avenger'.

My cynical side jokes as follows: * Twitter: Hate your heroes * Facebook: Hate your friends//family * NextDoor: Hate your neighbors

I'm glad I don't NextDoor anymore, and I'm on the Twitter//Facebook//Reddit triumvirate if that says anything.

NextDoor may not be a stone fence needing annual repair, but my noping out of it has tended toward better neighborly relationships.

</comment><comment><USER20> My nextdoor community is pretty quiet, mostly people seeking handymen, landscapers, etc., lost and found pets, overall pretty quiet and boring. Every now and then there is flare up around some issue, such as, fireworks, junk cars, prowlers, and so on. But they are pretty minor compared to FB or Twitter. Few people engage in that behavior in my neighborhood nextdoor I guess.

The city and police share out the same stuff they do on their facebook pages and official website.

</comment><comment><USER21> I like Nextdoor. Its focus on 'hyper local' allows me to get recommendations for local businesses.

I do have a problem with NDAs signed by my local elected officials. I would like to know what they are up to, thank you very much.

</comment><comment><USER22> Awful idea of a company we don't need as a society. If you want to connect with your neighbours go talk to them, go and plan something for the street/neighbourhood, participate in local festivities, buy in local stores. Human contact is what we need, no virtual substitutes. If there's an issue, solve it in person, speaking... Not to talk about tracking and privacy concerns.

<comment><USER15> This makes sense for your immediate neighbors. It gets trickier to go door to door meeting your neighbors around the entire block for example. Especially during SIP! That's where you probably want to meet your neighbors online then connect with them later offline.

<comment><USER23> You're living there so you could do one a week until you've met them all. Also, block parties are great.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> My nextdoor story:

A couple of years ago we got a post in our nextdoor group: "watch out - <USER2> burglary!".

Paraphrasing here - "be aware - someone is breaking in to cars parked outside and taking stuff. they got our gun last night!"

Another neighbor chimed in a day later with "yeah, got mine too!". There's only maybe 60 houses in the whole area, and... _people are leaving guns in cars - one was unlocked_.

This was, to my view, nowhere near "responsible gun ownership" \- regardless of your 2A views, it just seems like that behavior should be illegal. But... it's not (at least in our state).

Over the last couple years, I've used it as a talking point when talking 'gun rights' stuff to people, and - surprisingly to me - I only get around 50% of "pro gun" people who agree with me that it's irresponsible behavior.

<comment><USER25> How do you know the gun wasn't in one of those little portable safes? Or in a locked glove box?

If I'm running errands around town, I can't bring my gun into certain businesses, or federal facilities like the post office. So it stays locked in my car, in a little lock box that is tethered to the metal seat base with steel cable (but the cable could be cut with big enough bolt cutters or an angle grinder).

I see no problems keeping guns in cars as long as they're secured, but I agree if your neighbors hadn't either locked theirs up somehow then that's irresponsible.

<comment><USER24> I don't, certainly. Had they said "they got bolt cutters and cut through my steel cable securing my portable gun safe!" I'd have been a bit more impressed. Two people within a few days just... not sure they _both_ had portable gun safes broken in to. Possibility certainly - might ask one (one of them moved away recently).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I was pressured into signing up for NextDoor in order to participate in a local civic function. The whole experience felt very sketchy (ironic because a lot of the my neighborhood is people complaining about 'shady' characters). They had a slew of dark patterns in their sign up to try to get me to give out email addresses of friends so that they could be spammed with signup emails. The network is fine, but having public civic functions existing behind a closed wall owned by a private company is a really bad idea. Using Craigslist would be way less sketchy.

<comment><USER15> Craigslist would not be where I would recommend operating civic functions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> It's a tired saying, but no less, true if you aren't paying for it you are the product.

There are no social platforms that are VC backed that aren't going to at some point resort to the lowest common denominator of making a buck at someone's expense. And when you aren't paying for the product, then you are no longer able to control that exchange.

Google started off with Don't be Evil - now they force adverts from your competitors on your registered trademark and force you to advertise your own company name or lose customers - meanwhile for Google's products, no one can advertise in the same manner.

Facebook - well - that one is too long to even dive into.

Twitter - has done ok, sort of - but the problem with it's no policing policy is pretty rampant harassment that is also dealt with in an inconsistent manner.

That's why paying for something you create an exchange where the company providing that service has an incentive to keep you happy, not some advertising company. There is also competition that will naturally spring up, competing for that dollar.

</comment><comment><USER28> I wrote a post on Nextdoor, criticizing some of the decisions made by local officials. It got a few responses, and then a day or two later, silently disappeared. I didn't get any notification that it was gone; it had just been quietly deleted with no notification to me.

If this is how Nextdoor chooses to behave, then it's useless to me. I've stopped using the app.

</comment><comment><USER29> I think it all depends on which location you are in. My location has been great especially during this time and people are offering help and also giving away food for the less abled.Also the other day there was something that sounded like gunshots, police were called and I found out it was nothing bad on nextdoor first than my local news site or twitter.

</comment><comment><USER30> Initially I thought Nextdoor is a great idea. A place where you can get to know your neighbors, ask for recommendations for local labor, discover new restaurants that opened in town, etc. Like everyone already mentioned, the noise ratio made it hard to use and I quickly didn't bother to log in and canceled all notifications.

Also, my town and all nearby towns have FB groups. It's not at a neighborhood level like in Nextdoor but most towns are not that big that it matters much. I'm not big on those groups either, but I'm assuming with good group moderators you can get the same or even greater value. In that sense Nextdoor is just a feature...

<comment><USER31> I used to live on a street that had our own Facebook group. It was all things like "They're inspecting trash cans on the sidewalk again, I threw all your trash cans up on your porches to avoid the fine" and "Tim's backyard bike shop is open again, stop by with a six pack for a tune up"

I miss that street.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Nextdoor definitely has its share of racist sounding posts.

A woman in my neighborhood said she came home late one night and parked a couple of blocks from her home. She was walking home and a younger black male was walking behind her. As she walked closer to her home she said she felt he was getting closer to her. She turned around and said "night tonight buddy!" really loud. She was convinced the guy was out to rape her.

The only thing I like Nextdoor for is I can find neighbors in a day who I can sell or give away things I no longer need. It's like Craigslist circa early 2000s in terms of genuine people who want to take it off your hands.

</comment><comment><USER33> The worst part about this type of social network is the people it brings out of the woodwork. Those crazy assholes who live in your neighborhood who were otherwise confined to passive aggressive letters and shouting at you as you take down your trash now have the ability to band together with other asshole neighbors and get the police involved whenever they collectively feel an emotional response about something.

How is this a good thing for those of us who want to be left the fuck alone? How do we put an end to this ridiculous nonsense?

<comment><USER34> As another person who mostly wants to be left the fuck alone as well:

One of the internet's greatest gifts is the ability to communicate with so many people you would otherwise have never spoken to.

One of its greatest curses is that all of the stupid people, who used to only ever be able to talk to the other X stupid people in their small area, can now talk to a world wide network of stupid people. Pushing each other to ever increasing levels of stupidity that inevitably spills out onto everyone else's lives.

And unfortunately it seems there is no putting the genie back into the bottle.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> >> Nextdoor and the public agencies it works with say that close ties between the social media platform and the government can help them both do their jobs better.

The thing is, that's true. It's the way they're going about it and the fact that it's a messy public / private mix that raises ethical concerns. At some point we're going to need to rethink an official channel for government communications. Think about it: how dependent on social media have many of us been to find out the latest public health mandates? And how well do we feel like social media deals with fake news and fraud and privacy? The combination of those two is a big problem. There needs to be a better official communications platform.

The US Postal Service was seen as very fundamental to the forming of its government. Now, ignoring the financial woes and plundering by Congress, and ignoring the very lousy and incompetent service you can get from it in some places, it just has fundamental limitations in cost, speed, level of non- repudiation, etc. It's largely become a subsidized junk mail / litter distribution network. It's how I'm supposed to get official correspondence from the IRS, but it's harder than it should be to know it REALLY came from the IRS, and to prove that I REALLY replied on time, and to actually work towards a resolution. We can't use it for all our elections because of (real or not) fraud concerns so we use more inconvenient forms of voting. If you need to take someone to court you can't trust it, so you have to pay for expensive process service. It doesn't get used to notify me of changes in laws that affect me, like I might get fined if I go to the park with my kids tomorrow. It can't be used to tell me that I can't park my car where I usually do in 72 hours because of time-sensitive maintenance, we instead pay someone to put a note on my door and hope it doesn't blow away. It's not great. The de facto solution? Rely on NextDoor and Facebook. And we get ethical dilemmas like this article.

I really think at some point we need to declare some kind of Internet access a fundamental need as much as service by USPS (which is required to service every address) has been in the past, and not rely on private infrastructure for basic government services like this. As someone who tends to be libertarian and lives somewhat off-grid a lot of the time, I see the difficulties and fully expect that our government would screw up the execution of this. But at some point I think it's necessary and inevitable to at least try. The most basic functions of government could be done so much better.

</comment><comment><USER36> I don't understand the problem with law enforcement. Can someone explain the risks/problems? Because I've only ever used NextDoor to get referrals for plumbers, handymen, electricians, gardeners, etc.

</comment><comment><USER36> What do cops get out of NextDoor? Please help me to understand

</comment><comment><USER37> I think the worst thing I've seen popping up on Nextdoor is quarantine zealots reporting people to the police for leaving the house for "non-essential" reasons. The most recent example I saw was a hairdresser using Nextdoor to schedule 1 on 1 house calls since they can't pay their bills due to the quarantine, and a busybody reported them because "millions of people will die if we don't stay inside". I don't know what ended up happening to the hairdresser though.

</comment><comment><USER38> It's a sign of the times that this article doesn't mention any FBI corruption investigation, which is is clearly necessary here.</comment>


India to topple Japan as world's 3rd-largest economy - <AUTHOR> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/India-to-topple-Japan-as-worlds-3rd-largest-economy/articleshow/10052481.cms <comment><USER4> India to finally (hopefully) "topple" war-troublled Iraq as the world's 128th country in terms of income per capita by purchasing power parity. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(PPP\)_per_capita))

Or Mongolia for the 133rd position, depends upon who's list you look at.

Don't forget the huge income inequality.

<comment><USER5> Per capita income is extremely low in India. But things are improving.

India's growth is mainly because of growth of service industry, manufacturing and modern agriculture techniques. The countries that you have mentioned have higher per capita income because of huge natural resources and less population.

Iraq -> Huge Oil reserves / Small population

Mongolia -> Huge mineral resources / tiny population

<comment><USER4> The countries I mention here are because they are directly above India on that list.

I'm hoping you are not trying to say you need a lot of natural resources and less population to be rich.

Singapore -> Almost no resources, pretty dense population. Singapore is much much ahead.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm not sure what it means to be a large economy anymore. If you roam around any of the cities in India, you see nothing but a third world nation, with rampant poverty and horrific infrastructure. And of course in the villages, it's even worse. And businesses apparently have had difficulty dealing with the corruption in the Indian government.

The country has such a long way to go before it can stand on the same footing as the US or even some of the European countries whose economies it is supposedly surpassing.

<comment><USER7> From what I read you're accurate. You could also make the argument that you could replace the word "India" with "China" and not be too far off in describing another huge economy.

<comment><USER6> This may be true on the outskirts, but in the cities, China has made huge advances, especially with infrastructure, roads, railway, etc. Of course, this is not true for all of China.

<comment><USER8> The bottom 5% of households in the US still earn about the same amount as the top 5% of households in China. If we were talking about the top 1% it would be totally different, but still China is overall much poorer than the US - <USER2> in the cities.

EDIT: Also contrast it with Brazil, where the bottom 5% make about the same as the bottom 5% of China, while the top 5% make almost what the top 5% in the US make.

<comment><USER9> In absolute amounts sure, but that's irrelevant to spending power or quality of life.

The bottom 5% of households in the US make nominally more than the top 5% of households in China, but I'm willing to be the bottom 5% in the US lives _far_ worse than the top 5% in China.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> terrible headline. my dictionary says:

to topple: verb [ no obj. ] overbalance or become unsteady and fall slowly [ with obj. ] cause to fall in such a way

india rising does not cause japan to fall, in any way.

also, there's a certain triumphalism in such headlines that is, i contend, unworthy of a confident nation and of HN.

last but not least, the measure used is highly flawed, given that the headline seems to aim at india's rising "standing" in world affairs. when you do that, the actual exchange rate counts, not PPP. and there, the picture looks a little different.

just to be clear: none of which is to detract from india's great progress in the last 10 or 20 years, or from its talented population. it's just that this article/headline strikes me as cheap.

<comment><USER11> That sort of sensationalist headline is expected from the indiatimes group.

<comment><USER12> And what media groups are reputable in India?

<comment><USER13> thehindu.com is reputed. They are independent and practice quality journalism

<comment><USER4> They may be the lesser evil, but I would still say they are nothing close to what NYTimes is. (If you are looking for reputation on that scale.)

Moreover I've often seen the Times of India publishing most of BBC (India region) stories from the day before. Might as well follow that.

<comment><USER14> My friend, you haven't read The Hindu I believe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Wow lot of pessimism and cynicism here.

> _'...but per-capita income of India is so low'_

No one has said otherwise. Having a big economy has many advantages and India is expected to grow for decades to come.

> _'...but go to Indian cities and you'll see rampant poverty'_

So? Poor people migrate to cities in search of opportunities. Unlike China there is no mechanism in India to put restrictions on rural migrants.

> _'...gap between rich and poor in India is growing'_

Show me one country that is growing 5% or more where the gap between rich and poor is decreasing.

</comment><comment><USER16> I am sure India has improved a lot! But India has lot of other problems,

1\. India has a family centric society , where welfare of the family gets priority than the welfare of the nation, which is one of the factor for rampant corruption (IMO).

2\. The infrastructure is poor.

3\. The divide between rich and poor is high! (income inequality)

4\. The Public sector is very slow to respond to the growing needs of infrastructure! They have no clue at all!

5\. There is still caste system in rural India, where they don't respect fellow country men as a human being.

6\. The politics is only for the rich and heirs of powerful politicians (the parliament is filled with sons and daughters of old politicians read:family business)

India has a long way to go!

<comment><USER17> I agree with most of your points, but I don't think #1 (family-centric society) is the problem, or even a direct driver of corruption. If you were referring to nepotism, then I think that exists all over the world. An overall corrupt climate just makes it easier to practice nepotism.

<comment><USER18> I know nothing about India but the "family-centric" stuff is easier to understand as a problem if you phrase it "clannish". And that is actually a huge problem in some areas.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Triumphalism without much actual substance. The Japanese have an amazing standard of living, superb infrastructure, world beating products and awesome tech.

If you wander around a big city in India you'll see wild dogs and malnourished children, enormous shanty towns and slums. How this nationalistic rag called the india times can proclaim "victory" as having "toppled" Japan is beyond me.

Also - claiming that Russia and India are coming to the aid of European countries is completely ridiculous. India currently receives £1billion + in aid from the UK.

Having a "big" economy because there are 1 billion citizens within that economy doesn't mean anything in itself.

</comment><comment><USER20> I see lots of comments about income inequality in India. I find them very amusing. Refer [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality). You would see that India's income inequality is less than Switzerland, France and the Netherlands. The pressing problem in India right now is not income inequality. Its the lack of income, really. At this stage of development all India should worry about is earning wealth. Trying to redistribute that is a 'premature optimization'. :)

<comment><USER21> Not true. If you look at the GINI index (which is probably the most accurate measure for high inequality) India is quite higher than all those countries. And almost every country higher than India has significant economic problems. The only exception is Hong Kong and that is because its income inequality is obviously caused by capital flight from mainland China.

The other indexes do not capture the true nature if income inequality in these modern times. Comparing the top 10% of income earners with the bottom 10% washes things out because the truly rich are a very small group. They are a mere fraction of the top 1%.

<comment><USER22> Well comparing GINI across similar sized countries: India (36.8), Russia (39.9), US (40.8), China (46.9), Brazil (49.3), India is the lowest of the group.

While its true that most european countries have slightly lower GINI, they also have a higher 10% ratio (highest to lowest) than India.

So it's pretty hard to argue from the actual statistics that inequality is the outstanding problem of India as it is often made out to be.

But it's perhaps true that the contrast is more visible in India than elsewhere - with slums next to high rises.

I think the reason for this is that growth is relatively narrowly focussed around a few metros, which then attracts a big influx of job seeking rural population. The other big countries never had such a big rural population to begin with.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There is something that I'm missing. World Bank says that India GDP is $1.377 trillion, Wikipedia too.

But there is this "PPP" thing, which turns India GDP to $4 trillion. Which one is more relevant in this case?

<comment><USER24> To put it really simplistically : From the perspective of everything within India - PPP is what matters; because it takes into consideration the cost of living. But from the perspective of everything outside India - the absolute figure is what matters.

<comment><USER23> If we are talking of things from the perspective within India, then it doesn't make sense to compare to Japan? If I'm comparing to Japan, then I'm going outside and I should use the nominal GDP, right?

<comment><USER24> You are right. Times of India is not a newspaper you would consider as 'sensible'. They love sensationalism and hyperbole.

<comment><USER23> I don't find this hyperbole, but rather a completely misleading title and analysis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> One point many commenters are missing.

Yes the country is plainly less rich than Japan and the first world, and it shows in big cities. Even comparing big cities in China to India there is a big gap.

But here is what you are missing: as total wealth in India is growing there are indeed some places (which the casual tourist driving around will not see) centered in Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi that are super rich. One way to spy on it is visit one of the "five star" hotels like JW Marriots etc -- they are numerous, massive, and full of quite rich people with loads of servants and fancy places to live.

By the way, you can find loads of disgustingly miserable poor places in the rich USA too. Maybe they all have sewers and electricity but that's about all that separates parts of the rural US (deep south) or bad urban poverty (right nearby me in NYC) and some villages in India.

<comment><USER26> _By the way, you can find loads of disgustingly miserable poor places in the rich USA too. Maybe they all have sewers and electricity but that's about all that separates parts of the rural US (deep south) or bad urban poverty (right nearby me in NYC) and some villages in India._

Even the poorest place in the US has access to electricity, clean water, sewage disposal, trash disposal, law enforcement, emergency response, phone service, broadcast television, postal service, and the list goes on. This is definitely not true in India or China, and there is a long way to go before they reach that level.

<comment><USER27> It's not quite true that the poorest areas of the U.S have access to those things. Check out these two links about colonias:

[http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/border/elpasocolonia...](http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/border/elpasocolonias.html) <http://www.sos.state.tx.us/border/colonias/faqs.shtml>

And two New York Times articles from July:

<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/us/08ttconditions.html> <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/10/us/10tthealth.html>

<comment><USER28> Thanks for those links, I didn't know about colonias. You can go to some unincorporated areas around LA and find similar surprising backwardness -- like people living in unheated garages without running water.

Nothing like India, though, where you don't have to go out of your way to find really exceptional poverty and deprivation.

<comment><USER26> _You can go to some unincorporated areas around LA and find similar surprising backwardness -- like people living in unheated garages without running water_

I think you are confusing the availability of infrastructure with the ability to pay for it. Anywhere in the US that is zoned for residential use will have access to clean water, sewage, trash pickup, mail, broadcast television, landline phone, police, fire, etc. So this garage, if it is in a residential area, and is up to code, will have access to these services, assuming the owners or occupants are willing and able to pay for it. I could go live in the garage at the Playboy Mansion, and I wouldn't have running water or heat their either. That says more about my personal living conditions than the infrastructure the government provides.

<comment><USER28> OK, I guess I don't see such a clear distinction between the two concepts ("available, but can't afford it" and "not available").

As I tried to say above, I agree that it's a denial of reality to equate India with the U.S. along the "poor infrastructure" axis -- based on some particularly bad examples. I believe we're in agreement about that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Sitting in India, and looking at that headline makes me feel journalism is absolutely wrong here, or at least in India Times.

There is no doubt India will become one of the richest economies, but right now we have so many problems we must fix. This headline gives the illusion that everything is just about perfect.

<comment><USER30> There will always be problems. You think USA does not have significant problems ? You think Europe does not have significant problems?

I dont think any country at any time was "perfect" and I dont think the headline is conveying that in any form

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> In terms of nominal GDP they are still far behind (India 10th place, Japan 3rd), but they score well at PPP due to low costs of living.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomin...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\))

</comment><comment><USER32> I think per-capita GDP is much more interesting than total GDP. Japan: 34k/yr, India: 3k/yr (source: wikipedia).

</comment><comment><USER33> India has almost 10 times the population: [http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+india+%2F...](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+of+india+%2F+population+of+japan)

<comment><USER34> So it's basically quantity over quality?

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> I wonder how people of india are so happy when compared to developed nations.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index>

<comment><USER36> HPI = (Self-reported happiness + Life Expectancy) / (Eco-footprint) ?

Yeah, no. The HPI is not a measure of the happiness of a nation, it's a measure of _self-reported_ happiness per unit of "imposition on nature." And according to that index, we should all strive to be like the Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Columbia, and Cuba. No thanks.

<comment><USER22> Sustainability and environment count for something. Perhaps a lot. Self- reported happiness obviously counts for a lot.

GDP does'nt take any of that into account.

<comment><USER36> Nor should it try, because it's an objective measure, whereas HPI is completely subjective measure. Apples and oranges.

I'm also not convinced self-reported happiness is accurate across cultures. How do you control for cultural variations in the question "are you happy?" Diverse cultures have deep differences of understanding when approaching that question.

<comment><USER22> Well what gets measured gets improved.

What's subjective to you is pretty objective to me - the health impact of unhappiness, for example, will reflect in healthcare costs. Which btw makes up 15% of US GDP. Now is that even real GDP or just a manufactured problem - <USER3> doctors and lawers and insurance guys all making money off of health problems of consumers.

See this - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_- _Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png)

<comment><USER36> I don't think you understood me.

For the same baseline level of internal well-being, people will respond to the question "how happy are you?" differently depending on their culture. Do you understand how this presents a problem when measuring happiness across cultures? That is why I refer to it as subjective. Cultures change over time, so a change in the HPI might simply be a reflection of that.

That being said, I do not believe that just because a measure is subjective, it is useless. Of course it's useful. It's just important to understand what _exactly_ you're measuring.

<comment><USER22> My point is that it is culture that affects happiness, not merely internal or material well being.

So taking into account cultural variations is meaningless when what I'm interested in measuring is the end result.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> All this "large economy" chest beating is useless if you cant prevent a million deaths because of malnourishment.

</comment><comment><USER38> From the paper that brought you

[http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-10-28/man-w...](http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-10-28/man- woman/28271451_1_rapist-small-town-girls-victim)

Should a woman marry her rapist?

KALPANA SHARMA, Oct 28, 2010, 12.00am IST

When a rapist offers to marry the victim, one would think it's the perfect solution. But isn't this victimization of the victim all over again?</comment>


Gluon – A configurable and small virtual machine which runs Erlang BEAM bytecode - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/kvakvs/gluonvm1 <comment><USER2> Greetings!

Author is here.

We have no idea how this blog draft escaped into HN, but here it is a few years too late. The Gluon project [https://github.com/kvakvs/gluonvm1](https://github.com/kvakvs/gluonvm1) isn't live anymore, it was using C++ and it was stopped a couple years ago giving way to other experiments ( [https://github.com/kvakvs/E4VM](https://github.com/kvakvs/E4VM) ) and finally to ErlangRT mentioned below [https://github.com/kvakvs/ErlangRT](https://github.com/kvakvs/ErlangRT)

My talk with me explaining the whole thing on EUC 2017 (Stockholm) is here [https://youtu.be/6NUPormxgw8?list=PLWbHc_FXPo2jAL3fm0YfN3nFV...](https://youtu.be/6NUPormxgw8?list=PLWbHc_FXPo2jAL3fm0YfN3nFVj6OyQcu2)

The new ErlangRT project in Rust is much more recent; clean strictly typed code with some 'unsafe'ties and a good PoC progress. But it also was stopped because the amount of work to do in it quickly grows but my free time doesn't grow at all.

This increased interest might actually make me rethink my priorities and look at it again.

<comment><USER3> It's great to hear interest in this area - the more places I can run Erlang/Elixir, the more likely I am to use it even in the places it can traditionally run (it's a more useful language to me if I can use the same codebase everywhere).

If you are looking to make an embedded focused VM, obviously ARM is the most useful target to run on.

<comment><USER4> Is there a platform the BEAM doesn't currently target? I'm not aware of anything that isn't completely esoteric... You can run it on ARM currently.

BEAM has been in use for over 20 years in telephone systems running on insanely old and bizarre hardware. Is there a platform you have in mind besides ARM?

<comment><USER5> I could be wrong, but I don't think BEAM really runs on microcontrollers. Erlang might be a good environment on the same sorts of micros (32 bit, dozens of KB of ram) MicroPython targets.

<comment><USER6> [https://github.com/bettio/AtomVM](https://github.com/bettio/AtomVM)

edit: it's a work in progress, but it's a start. Looks like the author is actively working on it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Would Elixir be able to support this? If yes, then it could be a huge deal (atleast for me). Imagine writing a POS system's code in Elixir. That'd be very nice, although I understand at this point this is just wishful thinking.

<comment><USER8> I know of a company who implemented a POS in Elixir in Phoenix running in web kiosk mode. I don't know any further details and probably couldn't share them if I did but this scenarios has been done with BEAM.

<comment><USER7> Wow, that's cool. Would be very interested to keep track of the progress of that..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> it looks there is also a more recent proof of concept work to implement the Erlang VM in Rust: [https://github.com/kvakvs/ErlangRT](https://github.com/kvakvs/ErlangRT)

<comment><USER10> Cool subtitle :) lighthearted, and gives good overview of author's position: _" Good news: I know what to do. Bad news: I have no clue how to Rust"_

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> "Last commit was over 2 years ago" is a common phrase when it comes to Erlang.

Of course, I'd consider Erlang to be one of the best platforms in terms of stability. It's rare that they double back on old features.

</comment><comment><USER12> Check out [https://github.com/bettio/AtomVM](https://github.com/bettio/AtomVM) which seems to be a similar project that's actively developed.

</comment><comment><USER13> Is the art created from the same artist that did art for the book learnyousomeerlang.com?

I'm glad Erlang and Elixir are slowly getting popular and going into other spaces such as hardware apparently.

<comment><USER2> The technology for the art is called Wacom Bamboo and I was overdrawing the Erlang logo with some hand scribbles in Inkscape. In fact same technology seems to be used for the original LYSE book and I was using it to translate text in images in Russian translation for the LYSE book.

<comment><USER14> For Learn You Some Erlang, I used hand-made drawings that I would scan, and then trace over using either photoshop (initially) and then Illustrator (when I knew the book would go to print).

<comment><USER15> Is that de same technique as in learn you a haskell?

<comment><USER14> no idea, did not write that one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> $('img[alt="Draft"]').remove();

</comment><comment><USER17> We barely had FB and Sonar, to just get yet another example of how badly to name projects.

[http://gluonhq.com/](http://gluonhq.com/)

<comment><USER18> Gluon is also a language built on Rust: [https://github.com/gluon- lang/gluon](https://github.com/gluon-lang/gluon)

<comment><USER19> Which I heard of for the first time only weeks ago and thought this was.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Wouldn't targeting GraalVM make sense, too?

<comment><USER21> Could you elaborate please? Why do you think would it make sense?

<comment><USER22> It'd be great to see what a state-of-the-art optimising compiler can do for the performance of Erlang and Elixir.

<comment><USER23> Given the not-all-that-great improvement of a targeted attempt to speed up Erlang with HiPE, I wouldn't hold your breath for how well a non-targeted approach would go. Unfortunately, Erlang-the-language has several features that seem to be fundamentally slow, in that I've never seen any runtime that goes quickly with them. (A lot of memory copying, for one, even after being as clever as possible with optimizations on that front.)

(I no longer believe in the line that there are no slow languages. In practice, there seem to be, and languages in practice seem to plateau at certain performance levels no matter how much effort is put into them. Those who wish to argue are welcome to produce the fast-as-C-at-everything Javascript interpreter or some similar artifact and I will happily retract.)

Erlang is still a fine language and it's performance is well in line with several other popular languages; by no means would I say it is unusable. It's just that real engineers need to have clear understandings of the costs and benefits of their tools, which includes understanding not all languages have the same speed characteristics.

<comment><USER22> HiPE was done a long time ago, and I don't think it tried to use any particularly sophisticated techniques even at the time.

Modern compilation techniques such as powerful escape analysis and partial evaluation may be able to do something new. GraalVM runs Ruby about 10x faster than standard Ruby, for example.

<comment><USER23> "GraalVM runs Ruby about 10x faster than standard Ruby, for example."

Which puts it roughly up against the plateau I observe for dynamically-typed languages across the board, except LuaJIT (which AIUI compromises the dynamicness a bit to get there). Ruby is a great deal more than 10x slower than optimal (which is still roughly C, though keep an eye out on that as languages continue to challenge it).

Based on the way Erlang works, I wouldn't expect it to get much past two times faster than it already is no matter how much money is poured into it.

I remember hearing the line about how there are no slow languages, only slow implementations, back in the early 2000s, when we didn't have any implementations of dynamic scripting languages that had really had a lot of effort poured into them, by modern standards. In 2018, we have numerous such implementations with vast, vast amounts of work poured into them. They are faster than they used to be... and they are still meaningfully slower than optimal. (And eat about 10-20x times the RAM in the process.) Erlang doesn't do all the bad things that Python or Ruby do to make them slow, but it does add a lot of memory copying that Python and Ruby don't do, and which is probably not as reducible as you'd like no matter how you optimized it (the low-hanging fruit, after all, is already in current Erlang).

To be honest, if you like Erlang but you need the next step up in performance and are willing to lose a few guarantees to get there (a very common tradeoff in optimization, after all), the answer is Go, not waiting for a much faster Erlang. Go is significantly faster than Erlang, Go does not have Erlang's memory isolation, and these statements are deeply connected together, not just coincidence.

<comment><USER24> What about Common Lisp using SBLC? That's dynamically typed and amazingly fast.

LuaJIT is simply a very good optimizing JIT compiler. It's just as dynamic as Lua.

BEAM is a register-based bytecode VM, which is dramatically slower than native code. The fast JS implementations either don't bother with a bytecode VM (V8) or baseline compile to native after only a few iterations (WebKit) because bytecode VMs simply can't compete with a chunk of native code.

2018 MRI Ruby is ~14x faster than 2006 Ruby depending on how you measure. Neither Python nor Ruby have seen anywhere near the resources put into JS engines over the past 10 years.

Oracle dumped a ton of money into making the JVM support dynamic languages and now Graal is bringing full Java performance to both Ruby and Python.

It's not really inherent language design flaws that make it difficult to optimize Ruby and Python (they don't do anything "bad") but the community dependence on compatability, particular with C extensions. PyPy does a ton of crazy stuff to maintain compatability that then hurts performance, like faking reference counts etc.

<comment><USER25> >> SBCL

Was `jerf` opining about "dynamically-typed languages" or just about "dynamic scripting languages"? It matters.

>> inherent language design flaws

Not "design flaws" but design goals -- _Scripting languages are designed for gluing_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Dead link

</comment><comment><USER27> Ot: please lessen the "DRAFT" stamp. It makes it very hard to read

<comment><USER28> I just right click -> Adblock -> remove element

<comment><USER29> Mobile user here… It's even worse (I imagine), and unfixable from mobile Safari.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> 404

Ooops It looks like that page you tried to explore went extinct, or you typed in the wrong address. Check the URL again or go back to our home page

<comment><USER2> I asked to unpublish it. Please read my top comment.</comment></comment>