Thailand cave rescue: all 12 boys and coach successfully rescued - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/news/live/2018/jul/10/thai-cave-rescue-third-mission-planned-to-bring-out-remaining-boys-and-coach-live-updates <comment><USER3> I feel like we all really needed this story.

For once, there's nothing political or divisive. There's no one to be mad at. It's not "us or them".

The world's top experts came together, volunteered for a dangerous mission, sacrificed, and pulled it off. Ra! Ra! Humanity! Feels like a brief moment of redemption.

<comment><USER4> >There's no one to be mad at.

Except at the soccer coach who thought it was a good idea to endanger 12 children by going into a cave during monsoon season which also led to the death of an innocent person?

<comment><USER5> The monsoon season starts in July. They went in at the end of June. All warning signs in front of the cave are about July through October. There's a risk there sure but you're giving out bad information here needlessly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "If a man gets lost in the mountains, hundreds will search and often two or three searchers are killed. But the next time somebody gets lost, just as many volunteers turn out. Poor arithmetic, but very human. It runs through all our folklore, all human religions, all our literature—a racial conviction that when one human needs rescue, others should not count the price. Weakness? It might be the unique strength that wins us a Galaxy."

(Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein)

<comment><USER7> Yet who shows up for the 3.1 million children who die of malnutrition every year? Every 3 minutes we lose more children then were in the cave.

We can comprehend 13 people and the struggle against nature, while the scope of world hunger is far too complex and emotionally incomprehensible to mobilize enough people.

<comment><USER8> > who die of malnutrition

Do they die of malnutrition or governmental corruption? I thought it was proven in the 1980's that the problem isn't a lack of food, it's the degenerate political systems blocking aid from reaching those who are dying. At least that's the prevailing narrative on reddit.

<comment><USER9> There is also the issue that food is not free and people starving can't pay for it.

<comment><USER8> Which fuels corruption. Charity imports tons of food for the poor, only to be intercepted by someone in the government and resold for profit. I admit that's a generalisation and I have no idea what actually happens. I've only read that the food has a very hard time making it to those who need it most. Which is why I applaud Gates' charity for rethinking it and trying to get to the root of the problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It was a near tragedy, a man died in the process, but someway it is comforting to see everybody concentrated on a problem like this, trying to help fellow people, than waging war etc.

<comment><USER11> "Near" tragedy? A man died.

<comment><USER12> I suggest reading the book "Shadow Divers" for a look at some of the professional diving culture. It's super interesting. This death is definitely horrible. However, reading Shadow Divers also made me think that any cave divers take on high risk every time they swim, and that this death - <USER2> tragic - is a risk this person confronted long before the incident.

<comment><USER13> Just wanted to point out that diving culture as described in 'Shadow Divers' is pretty much as far from professional as it gets. What the book does describe is east coast deep wreck diving community of the early 1990s. In which I suspect it does a good job at. And how they pushed the limits before mixed gas diving / non-open circuit scuba equipment was well understood or widely available outside military and possibly some commercial outfits.

That said, the book is great read. Especially if you're into diving. It's just that it should not be read as a role model for anything but reckless regard of ones life.

Not to drift completely off-topic, here is a link to a long thread about Thailand cave rescue from the cave diving forums[1].

[1] [http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/35242-Football...](http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/35242-Football- team-trapped-in-Thai-cave-complex)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This story has been a captivating lesson in the power of constraints. We have powerful drills and pumps, but adding the constraints of portability and time, we find fewer options. We have great mapping and tracking capabilities, but put them underground and everything changes. We have talented cave divers, but they aren't doctors or vice versa. When you start looking at all of the resources and all of the requirements, and then the thin slice of compatibility that was actually effective in locating, sustaining, and rescuing the team, it really was incredible.

</comment><comment><USER15> I don't get this attitude that I'm seeing in here. So many commenters "who cares about 13 when millions of kids are starving" JESUS be happy for once.

"Oh it's a lovely day outside" "easy for you to say but don't you know it's raining at someone's wedding in Omaha"

</comment><comment><USER16> RIP hero Saman Kunan who gave his life for them.

</comment><comment><USER17> I was so glad to learn about it. This was such an unlikely rescue mission and amazingly heroic effort from everyone involved. If I was religious I'd say this was a miracle. Just very happy every one is ok.

<comment><USER18> The amazing part to me is that it was 12 kids and one adult. Between the fear and the biological needs, I wonder what kept them alive for so long.

First, the first time I fasted I was quited stressed about it, and it was in controlled, cozy environment.

Second, they didn't know if anybody would come. Not even if somebody could come. For 9 days without eating and living in their own shit in the dark, they wondered.

I'm awaiting for the unavoidable book/movie, hoping they don't try to make it epic and get into real details about this.

<comment><USER19> The coach.

He shared what little rations they had, and his condition was visibly worse than the children by the time they were found.

He also helped them by teaching them meditation, so as not to focus on their hunger.

<comment><USER18> > He also helped them by teaching them meditation, so as not to focus on their > hunger.

Learning meditation is hard. Learning meditation when you are scared, hungry and in such a bad situation is extra hard.

So if the guy pulled it off with 12 terrorized famished kids for 9 days, he deserves his own temple.

<comment><USER20> People in general are able of amazing deeds under the threat of death.

Unfortunately it's why we are able to wage war. Was watching a documentary on the Vietnam war the other day and one guy was describing how he felt like an automaton that was focusing only on survival, which kept him from going insane, while another guy was describing how he felt no pain from his bullet injuries while trying to stay alive alone in the jungle for 3 days, only feeling pain after he was rescued.

But yeah, this coach is a hero for sure, I'm so glad they made it out.

<comment><USER21> The Vietnam War, by Ken Burns?

Watched that episode with the South Vietnam veteran recalling that episode where he was left for dead (literally, by his own allies AND adversaries), crawled through the jungle for 3 days and only then felt the pain and smelled the nasty odor of the rotting flesh.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> It's very odd that this somehow made it to all the media headlines. Sure, a happy ending and so forth, but in a world of ~7.5B, including indescribable tragedies on a daily basis, it makes you wonder how they knew the daily drama would lead to such ad dollars.

<comment><USER23> How do we save x million children from poverty, disease, etc? Well, we need to mobilize huge trans-national organizations, we need to drive systemic changes, we need multi-year disease intervention programs, etc.

How do we save a dozen kids trapped in a cave? If we put together some resources we can save all their lives within a week or so.

Also, starving kids have traditionally motivated enormous outpourings of effort, so your hypothetical straw man comparison isn't very accurate.

<comment><USER22> Rescue effort comparisons and news story priority comparisons aren't the same. I'm referring to the latter, while you're suggesting I'm doing the former. I gave a perfect example in the Japan floods. And sorry, now that you bring it up, rescue efforts aren't worth mobilizing for transnationally? Even for aid?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Story of the year for me. Just goes to show what we can accomplish together.

Hopefully it will go as a +1 in our ledger if the fate of our species is ever decided

</comment><comment><USER25> Great thread covering all of the volunteers here: [https://twitter.com/duduang2/status/1016301667380224000](https://twitter.com/duduang2/status/1016301667380224000)

Highlight:

> "This man...drove more than 200 km just to give ice-cream to the rescue > team"

While this level of selflessness and generosity can be found almost anywhere, the Thais are truly some of the most gracious people you'll meet. That country is a gem.

The society is currently torn apart politically (similar, but different, to the polarization in the US) so good to see something unite the nation. And with such a happy ending, too.

</comment><comment><USER26> Man vs. nature, we are still bugs.

What are your thoughts on how technology advancement in the next 30 years would change the way of this kind of rescue mission? Say in 2040, can a group of robots finish the mission in one day with ease? That will be awesome, people can be rescued from bad situations much sooner.

<comment><USER27> I cannot imagine how robots could be used for this kind of rescue in the near future. Each situation like this is too unique to allow for a generic 'life- saving robot'. Even if we were to really try to develop a state-of-the-art cave diving rescue robot, what would we use it for in this case? We still would have to have people working crisis psycology and sitting with the kids as they were extracted, and some way to get the status of the robot as it is kilometers underground with no signal and no easy way we can have a 2km cable. We would still have to figure out how to get the people actually out, which was only really accomplished in this case by getting the best of the best to teach the kids to get themselves out. A robot would not be able to help a child fit through a tiny hole underwater in the dark

<comment><USER26> I agree with you taking care of people psycologically is probably the weak point of a robot task force. But in terms of pure technology advancement, I 'll just throw some random possibilities here for discussion.

Remember even as of today AI can compete on a high level of huge video games, face recognition, natural language processing, playing Go/Chess game, etc. Imagine in 30 years, all the robots, armed with AI and made of materials a few times stronger than whatever we have today, should be able to scan, learn, adapt and go. Another minor point, the robots can probably carry some heavy machines (or laser guns) and just pound hard on the cave's narrow sections to make the passage wider. Etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> A personal anecdote from me and my wife.

The weekend before they found them my wife told me that a monk who was praying for them at the cave said that a ghost[1] was hiding them from the eyes of the divers until Monday[2]. They shouldn't be worried about the children and their coach as the ghost would take care of them. To my surprise they found them on that Monday.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/06/27/world/asia/ap- as...](https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/06/27/world/asia/ap-as-thailand- cave-goddess.html) [2] I don't have a source as my wife was just scrolling through her Facebook feed

</comment><comment><USER29> minus one diver, don't forget that

</comment><comment><USER30> I'm grateful they were rescued, but how is this Hacker News material? I can go to Reddit if I want generic news articles.

<comment><USER31> > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes > more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the > answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Been following the Guardian and their Thai based journalist, Michael Safi. But, was their any other non-TV English language media house that was covering the event minute by minute?

<comment><USER33> ABC (Australia) have had a live blog going the whole time - [http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-10/thailand-cave- rescue-l...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-10/thailand-cave-rescue-live- blog-operation-continues/9962796)

</comment></comment><comment> why-el If they recover in time would be cool to see them at the World Cup final.

</comment><comment><USER34> is there some way to have a diving mask that can see in murky water? something like night vision - only it identifies solid objects and maps them for the diver?

</comment><comment><USER35> It turns out that if your suffering is spectacular enough, people will come save you. Maybe if we throw all the poor children of the world into caves people will start caring about them.

<comment><USER36> 12 kids and 1 adult trapped in a cave is a discrete, solvable problem. Millions of kids in poverty much less so.

We're much better at dealing with time-bounded, localizable problems.

Stalin's quote about tragedies and statistics comes to mind.

<comment><USER37> Still, the question is: for a given amount of resources (time, money, people) how many quality-life-years can be added?

If this quality is order of magnitude lower than other less exciting solutions (e.g. access to medicine and education for kids from poor families), then we should be aware that what we pay for is not lives saved, but an emotional entertainment show.

<comment><USER36> I'm reminded of a fellow in, IIRC, St. Louis. He expends tremendous amounts of energy, time, and money rescuing stray dogs, to the point where he doesn't have much of a social life. It's all about the dogs.

Someone asked him why he didn't instead pour that energy into helping homeless people. His response was something to the effect that there were plenty of others helping people; his passion was the dogs. I believe he also turned the question around: what are you doing to help the homeless?

A few dozen cave divers can't do much to help the millions of impoverished children, but they used their skills to perform heroic and deadly feats to help 12 children and their coach, and inspired many around the world to ask themselves these types of questions.

Reducing that to a cost-benefit analysis vs some vague "but can't we spend that effort on the other lost kids?" question is both impossible and missing the point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> thanks elon

</comment><comment><USER39> Awesome!

I love how the global diving community came together to rescue them, it's unfortunate that Petty Officer Saman Gunan died after doing a run of oxygen tanks to the caves though.

I even liked how Musk came out of left field "grab that tube, we're making a rescue pod!" and then hopped on a plane with it when it was tested and ready. While it didn't really matter I like that sort of thinking outside of the box and how he just dropped everything he was doing and set people to work on it and then took it over anyway in the event it will ever been needed in the future, I really wish more people had that go-the-extra-mile attitude.

<comment><USER40> Musk had no business being involved. Really, 'inventing' a MVP prototype of a submarine which he 'tested' in a swimming pool and then intended to test for real on live children, when an existing rescue effort underway was working?

This was egoism at its finest, taking public credit for 'helping' with a rescue he wasn't invited or asked to help with. And the media ate it up hook, line and sinker.

<comment><USER39> >and then intended to test for real on live children, when an existing rescue effort underway was working?

It was a good alternative to telling them to hold their breath and dragging them through dark and claustrophobic submerged spaces...

They tested it to make sure it was water-tight and easy to maneuver. Worst case you throw an oxygen tank in it and put a full-face regulator on each kid in the event it would have filled with water (which I'm imagining they did in the water anyway). Much easier to control a panicking child in a tube where he can't get at your hoses or slam his head into a rock.

<comment><USER41> Given that the rescue was a resounding success, I think diving them out turned out to be the best option?

<comment><USER39> They'd already rescued multiple children before Musk even got there, no sense changing what is working. They didn't seem to mind him leaving it behind for future rescues though. _shrugs_

<comment><USER42> They were being polite. Narongsak Osatanakorn said it was not practical for the mission.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Can anyone explain how the heck they found the children in the first place?

Seriously, I can't wrap my head around it. The kids were stranded 2.5 _miles_ inside the cave. All anyone knew was that the kids didn't return form their hike. How does that lead to "Hey, let's dive into the cave and maybe we'll find live children"?

I guess they were expecting the worst, but still.

<comment><USER43> I was surprised to hear that there were long stretches of dry walking between their location in the cave and the cave entrance. In particular there were dry stretches prior to the very nasty tiny hole they all squeezed through. I guess they were panicked and ran further than they needed to just to be extra sure?

<comment><USER43> Also looking at the side-view diagrams of the cave, if they were running away from the entrance because it was starting to fill up, I'm surprised that very tight hole they crawled through wasn't also underwater at the time since it looks like it is as low or lower than the cave entrance itself. They _descended_ to below the entrance altitude after having gained a lot of altitude. I know there are probably no answers but from the calm, adult, safety of my office I can't wrap my head around the decisions they made at all. Seems like they were running like panicked deer and then stopped because...? They couldn't run any further?

<comment><USER44> Also the fact that they kept together.

Would be interesting to know if at some point they were separated and if not, how they kept together in the dark.

<comment><USER45> The story I read indicated it was a planned "expedition", so presumably they had torches and such? You can't go far in pitch black in a cave and not injure yourself.

It doesn't really add up as it's been told. The death of the expert diver too seems very strange.

<comment><USER46> What doesn't add up? Why is the death of the diver strange?

<comment><USER45> It's strange to me. I've only dived at a novice level and never in a cave:

An expert diver who was delivering spare oxygen (or was it air), with a buddy, in a system in which a static line had been placed, and in which presumably a dive leader was managing operations and wouldn't allow a diver to return without a suitable amount of air .. in that situation they simply ran out of air? It seems so unlikely.

I just assumed that he got trapped, or carried by a current, or died in what might be perceived as a "stupid" way and they didn't want to mention it as it might hinder the rescue or sully the man's memory.

Maybe it's denial on my part.

<comment><USER47> I've done both caving and cave diving. Other than free diving (single breath), cave diving is the second most dangerous form of diving. Cave diving is really technical. As you've said, there's a 1000 things that can easily go wrong.

Imagine you are in pitch black darkness, with limited visibility even with torches. The water is moving, there isn't a GPS equivalent, it's real hard to keep track of position other than markers on a rope.

There can be castrophobicially small tunnels that you need to crawl through. Add bulky gear to the scenario. There can be sharp edges that can tear through skin or gear. Worse, there can be stones in the water stream shooting at you.

There is so much that is an element of luck.

This is one of the reasons that interest me so much in robotics. Imagine being able to send 10's of robots that can map the entire cave in parallel and send the accurate position of the kids. Not only that, but they can autonomously deliver important gear like food, oxygen, heat blankets e.t.c while human divers prepare for rescue. The man-machine patnership can potentially save so many lives.

I strongly believe the future of exploration/rescue is all about how smart + cheap we can make our robots. It's so much cheaper sending robots than humans to dangerous missions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> You really have to love Wikipedia. It's barely a week old and you already have a page with so many references and detailed information. Thank you, all the anonymous contributors.

<comment><USER48> Wikipedia is the best website for following:

1\. Current events.

2\. Sports tournaments.

The information entropy level is quite high, with basically no ads, extremely good formatting (relevant tables, charts etc.), and relatively unbiased.

This doesn't even mention the benefit of getting simple background information on the subjects with just a simple click (or even a hover these days)

It's really a treasure.

<comment><USER49> I strongly disagree about current events. The Merrick Garland wikipedia page was a mess immediately after he was nominated, and I've just checked and the word "unprecedented" appears 7 times, in spite of the fact that it is by-no- means unprecedented for the senate to not consider a nomination [1]. There are a lot of partisan editors that wish to astroturf for their own political convictions, and because Wikipedia articles are generally so nonpartisan after they've had some time to mature, I think it's especially problematic because readers don't realize that a fast-moving article is nowhere near up to standards.

[1]: "During the 1852 campaign between Democrat Franklin Pierce and Whig Winfield Scott, Justice John McKinley died in July. President Millard Fillmore, a Whig who was not running for reelection, nominated three candidates — one in August, one in January and one in February. The Democratic-controlled Senate took no action on two candidates and the third withdrew after the Senate postponed a vote until after inauguration. One of Fillmore's nominations was never even considered by the Senate, while the other was simply tabled." from [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact- checker/wp/2016/03/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact- checker/wp/2016/03/16/does-the-senate-have-a-constitutional-responsibility-to- consider-a-supreme-court-nomination/?utm_term=.767303c1094b)

<comment><USER50> Unprecedented in recent history. There really should be a law that the Senate needs to start holding hearings within X days. Otherwise partisanship will creep up on either side or multiple sides if we ever move beyond two parties.

<comment><USER51> > Unprecedented in recent history. There really should be a law that the > Senate needs to start holding hearings within X days. Otherwise partisanship > will creep up on either side or multiple sides if we ever move beyond two > parties.

Similar to a pocket veto, not acting upon a nomination _is_ a form of action. It's an indirect mechanism to reject a nominee.

I'm pretty sure changing this to mandate a hearing within a fixed number of days would require a constitutional amendment, not just a regular law, so is essentially impossible.

<comment><USER52> A pocket veto has a built in time limit. So it's not at all similar.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> I wonder if it'd be possible to use some of the momentum and talent from this to mount a rescue attempt to save the children trapped in cages in the United States.

<comment><USER54> you are being somewhat flippant, but you are getting at something I often wonder about. why is it considered reasonable to spend so much money (and a life) to occasionally rescue a small number of people in a weird predicament? Elon musk was ready to drop about a million dollars on this problem; similarly, I often read about the US Navy retasking entire warships to respond to small maritime emergencies at an hourly cost I can't fathom.

is it callous to ask whether there isn't a more efficient (from the perspective of actually helping a significant number of people) way to allocate these resources? there are a lot of lives that could be changed for way less.

<comment><USER55> it's not callous, and there is certainly an element of group hysteria to well- publicised threats to life like this and the Chliean miner rescue - we do not as a general rule attempt the same urgent response to greater threats to life such as malaria, starvation etc. But the difference I believe is that these incidents are short-term and can be saved by a burst of coordinated effort, whereas other causes of greater death are often structural and hard to impact without a charity's organisational efforts - for example, reducing malaria deaths is a complex web of fundraising, acquisition, distribution, education, and probably many other factors I am not aware of. A million dollars can save 13 lives now, or maybe-hopefully make an impact when added the existing pool of resources dedicated to reducing the impact of hunger or disease.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> I do my part in promoting captialism, which has done more to pull children out of poverty than any other program or charity in the world. Free market reforms in China and India have done just brain blistering amounts of good in reducing human suffering, from child malnutrition, suicide rates, longevity, and access to healthcare.

<comment><USER57> How do you tease apart the effects of capitalism and industrialism? Or are they inextricably linked in your world view?

<comment><USER58> Look at the noncapitalistic countries that industrialized and compare outcomes.

<comment><USER59> Russia made gigantic leaps from 1917 to 1956. They went from absolute backwards shithole to contending world power in 39 years (even less considering ww2 was over 10 years before that).

<comment><USER60> They did so at tremendous human cost. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%9...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%9322) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1946%E2%80%93...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1946%E2%80%9347)

<comment><USER61> You're talking like they didn't get invaded by the germans and lost 20M comrades vs the "atrocious war crimes against the jews" that totalled 6M... Russia took a beating and basically stop the german progress for the WEST to be able to regroup and refight way later.

<comment><USER60> Please understand that I'm not trying to be argumentative; I believe this is a widely misunderstood era of Soviet history. The Holodomor and the 1921 famine predate the Barbarossa invasion significantly. The Holodomor was a product of the dekulakization efforts undertaken as part of the forced farm collectivization. The farm collectivization was driven in part by Stalin's ideology (he disliked the NEP for various reasons) and partly by the need to maintain hard currency levels to purchase machine tools etc from foreign states to maintain its industrialization push. The main exports of the USSR were grain and therefore the quotas were enforced by the NKVD at the expense of the lives of a large number of people. In certain areas, Stalin was persuaded to lower the quotas but in the geographical confines of the Holodomor (largely Ukraine SSR) the quotas were largely maintained. Historians still debate whether the Holodomor was an intentional act of genocide (because Stalin wanted to crush any independence movement within Ukraine SSR) or simply depraved indifference. Conservative estimates of the cost of the Holodomor vary from 3.3-6+ million dead.

You implicitly posed an interesting moral question. Can history justify the deaths of 3.3-6+ million (Holodomor), 4+million (dekulakization), 5 million (1921 famine, admittedly coincident with the civil war) when compared to the planned atrocities of the Nazis if we credit those deaths with greatly contributing towards the defeat of the Hitler and the NSDAP?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> wow, some actual good news for a change

</comment><comment><USER63> And Musk hat to brag about building a submarine. Don't want to call him an idiot, but as a start explore the caves of Sagada in the Philippines. Then talk about escaping in such a flooded cave with a tiny submarine. [https://wikitravel.org/en/Sagada](https://wikitravel.org/en/Sagada)

Diving in caves is dangerous as f.. and requires a special training. Not sure that cave diving is part of a Navy Seal training. I read the dive out of the cave takes five hours. Hands of to the SEALS and kids for pulling it off.

<comment><USER63> I have to assume that everybody who downvoted this post has never ever made a real cave tour. A tour that involves hours of climbing up and down, diving and walking over tons of bat shit. Submarine my ass.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> Meanwhile, Elon Musk is jumping up and down saying "pay attention to me! Pay attention to me!"

<comment><USER65> And what did you do to help? He was asked if he could do anything and tried.

<comment><USER64> I didn't do anything to help- I don't think saving 12 people in a Thailand cave means a lot, globally speaking. Why do you say he was asked to do something? He offered to help. More realistically, however, he should have chosen to stay out of the way- he didn't get his device to the site until the rescue operation was already half completed. It wouldn't have worked anyway- it wasn't fit for the purpose. Getting a bunch of PR for somethign that wasn't really asked for and doesn't work seems pointless attention getting.

<comment><USER66> Tweet from Elon Musk in response to BBC article:

[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016684366083190785](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016684366083190785)

It shows correspondance with one of the dive team, urging Musk to continue with the sub.

Other teams from other organisations were also working on similar things: [https://twitter.com/Jiradett/status/1016690284619599873](https://twitter.com/Jiradett/status/1016690284619599873)

<comment><USER64> wow, he really is a jerk on twitter.

<comment><USER67> Why? I found his answer appropriate.

<comment><USER68> You think it's okay to debase the chief of the rescue operation, ignore the advice he took from multiple teams, and cherry pick a personal email correspondence with one guy that basically just says "keep trying" just so Musk can dance around, yet again, people pointing out a potential PR stunt?

I don't know what level of social ineptness is required to ignore not only the blatant insult against the chief, but Musk's presumably unintentional insult to the rest of the team that informed the chief what they thought about Musk's idea to carry a 300lb tube through volatile currents in a tight, murky cave system.

Talk about domain specialization.

<comment><USER69> This flamewar was ridiculous all around, but your account stands out as among the worst that made it so bad. This is the kind of thing HN exists to avoid, not perpetuate, so would you please not use HN this way in the future?

As I posted elsewhere, all this angry arguing about Musk, pro or con, is as meaningful as angry arguing about Spider-Man. Since you're on the con side, I'll add that all you're doing by venting like this is feeding the very PR you deplore, by giving it your attention and attracting others into doing the same. Go for it if that's what you want—but please not here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER68> Please elaborate? I presented an actual perspective. You have gone around these threads and insulted and demeaned people with a different opinion than the majority and then even equivocated these criticisms to a debate about a fictional character ("You guys might as well be bickering about Spider-Man."). That's not only incredibly dishonest, you really should be ashamed to stoop to such a level publicly. Intentionally framing a debate as not important or just a "flame war" is exactly how you get mindless echo chambers. Musk is a public figure who has had substantial investment in his companies via U.S. tax dollars. He's not a Marvel character, you doughnut.

Not once have you called out people hurling personal insults towards people that have a minority opinion on this board, you've done the exact opposite.

You have implied my statements violate some aspect of HN, but you're going to need to specifically point out which statements do that. Dissent is not violation. You might not be interested in the dissent or critique but you can't use your position as moderator to quell it.

And if you're actually willing to be honest with yourself, or even devote some amount of diligent effort to pretend you're here to upload intellectual standards (despite discouraging dissenting opinions), you need to explain why blatant personal attacks are being allowed in threads you are most definitely reading.

> I'll add that all you're doing by venting like this is feeding the very PR > you deplore,

Dang, that's a unsubstantiated view point and you know it. I'm honestly in shock you think that's a valid point to make (I'm not). Please explain how someone who gets public attention as a status quo is somehow actually being fueled by his critics. This talking point comes in up various contexts and is always meant to dismiss critique or even worse, victim blame. What the actual fuck are you on?

To recap since you most definitely again will side step any critique of moderating actions:

* What rules am I violating and where. A simple quote of my statement and the rule will suffice.

* Why are you framing the debate as if it's about a fictional character, when it's the CEO of a company who receives significant funding from U.S. tax payer dollars.

* How does critiquing a public figure's positive media coverage in a small thread somehow get the news to continue positive coverage?

<comment><USER69> It's simple: all this fever about GoodMusk vs. BadMusk has become bone- crushingly tedious. When that happens with anything, nothing can redeem it and it's off topic on Hacker News.

I definitely don't mean to pick on you personally. Dozens of HN users have been filling the threads with this lately and it needs to stop. We literally can't moderate it all, and the Elonian Provocation is large enough to be capable of swamping this site entirely.

<comment><USER64> Hmm. I don't agree. I think we're on the turn of the tide where the hacker community and the media will stop fawning over him if we repeatedly and politely point out that he's an attention-seeking person but that doesn't mean he needs to have news coverage.

<comment><USER69> I can think of at least two problems with that. One is that people don't really change their minds this way; all they do is dig their heels in and object harder. The other is that HN could be smothered under the weight of this material even while opinion is working itself to convergence. The Muskian Market can stay wrong longer than this site can stay solvent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> Awesome news. But how long until Hollywood capitalizes on this event and makes a movie? "... Based on a true story, starring _insert big name actor here_..."

<comment><USER39> They already are [http://www.newsweek.com/hollywood-producers-head-thai- cave-r...](http://www.newsweek.com/hollywood-producers-head-thai-cave-rescue- site-plan-blockbuster-movie-1015501)

<comment><USER71> Actual quote from the source article, literally by Michael Scott:

>Pure Flix films managing partner Michael Scott told AAP in Chiang Rai, "I see this as a major Hollywood film with A-list stars".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Why is this here?

</comment><comment><USER72> People literally have stepped over a homeless person to get a closer look at the shop window tv covering this story. It represents the worst of humanity -- TV news swarming the cave site because it's going to get them lots of money. People pretending to care about the welfare of others when it's really a morbid reality television show to them -- entertainment.

</comment><comment><USER73> That's good news, but I don't see how it's relevant to HN. The FAQ even says it: "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic."

<comment><USER74> Pulling off a successful cave rescue takes tremendous skill and planning and involves the world's domain knowledge experts - its not an idle task.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

>On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

>Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> Why wasn't the death of Saman Gunan more widely publicized? I barely heard about it - in the NYT article on this it's a single sentence 2/3rds of the way through the article. I'd have thought that the concept of someone sacrificing themselves for the recovery of 12 children would have been a major story. The Guardian's liveblog (or whatever this is) doesn't mention it in the first couple pages, nor do the responses of any of the world leaders and celebrities quoted mention it. Elon Musk's participation is cute but has gotten way disproportionate response compared to the lack of acknowledgement that I see this guy getting.

<comment><USER76> It was all over Reddit when it happened (which is where I heard about it).

<comment><USER77> Unfair life. I am glad the children are out of the nightmare. I feel crushed because a young man (navy seal) with bravery focused on helping as much as possible without thinking twice. RIP our hero.

God, if those children were doing an initiation endangering themselves. Remember the newborns dying in Syria, Africa and other places.

I wish the 13 well.</comment></comment></comment>


The Non-Technical Guide to Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence - <AUTHOR> https://machinelearnings.co/a-humans-guide-to-machine-learning-e179f43b67a0 <comment><USER2> This isn't a guide; this is a collection of websites related to ML. Which is cool, don't get me wrong, but not what I wanted/expected.

<comment><USER3> My feeling exactly. Feels like a very clickbaity title

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Seems relevant: [http://approximatelycorrect.com/2017/03/28/the-ai- misinforma...](http://approximatelycorrect.com/2017/03/28/the-ai- misinformation-epidemic/)</comment>


How many startups called for video interview for Winter 2017 batch? - <AUTHOR> Hello, We did our video interview last Friday with a YC partner and I am wondering how many startups called for video interview?
Best <comment><USER2> Please do not submit this type of question as a story on HN. To address the moderators of this site, email firstname.lastname@example.com</comment>


Clj, a Clojure REPL and package management system by David Edgar Liebke - <AUTHOR> http://github.com/liebke/clj

<comment><USER2> I'd like to see something like this as part of the standard clojure distribution - i.e. something more than "Oh here are some JAR files"

<comment><USER3> Indeed, it would be great to have an official solution to this problem, as currently there are just too many ways of doing this, and that creates fragmentation and all the associated problems that come with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've just started to learn Clojure and I'm still a little confused. What's Clj? Is it a yum-like tool for Clojure?

<comment><USER5> clj is much more like Ruby gems or easy_install. You get your packages installed into a global place. You don't need to define a per-project project.clj to start hacking, which is a friendlier behavior for people just getting started with Clojure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I am installing it right now. One issue (or not): I tend to use different versions of Clojure libs for different projects, etc. and this looks like you install packages globally on your clj setup. Looks well worth checking out.

<comment><USER7> Mark, you are correct, it does install packages globally. It's designed to complement the project-oriented approach of Leiningen and Maven, not replace it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is pretty sweet. Just the other day I was thinking that doing this in C might be a fun way to scratch and itch and have a fast practical solution for others.

There's still room for a more comprehensive solution than either this or Lein gives. Maybe I'll have to scratch that itch if it gets to be too much.

This is certainly nice for just having a ready-made REPL with all your favorite libs already on your classpath. Kudos, David!

<comment><USER9> The launcher side has been done (very well) in C for JVM languages: <http://hashdot.sourceforge.net/>

Just waiting for someone to go make .debs for it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Now with support for starting a Swank Server - <http://github.com/ghoseb/clj>

</comment><comment><USER11> how does this compare to leiningen, which i believe does a lot of similar things ?

<comment><USER12> leiningen works on a project level, whereas this works on a global level.

Think rvm's gemsets vs normal rubygems behavior, if you're familiar with that eco-system.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Semi-related:

Can anyone point me towards some up-to-date documentation on Compojure? I can't seem to find any anywhere.</comment>


Cornell Notes: Take Effective Notes - <AUTHOR> https://models.substack.com/p/-cornell-notes-take-effective-notes <comment><USER2> Oh my goodness, cornell notes. Perhaps it was the way we were forced to use cornell notes by my secondary school teachers, but I never saw the appeal nor the benefit.

The summarization portion is probably the main advantage over the other note taking methods IMO.

<comment><USER3> To me, it defeated the greatest benefit of taking notes, which isn't being able to reference them but the fact that writing down important information seems to help with memory retention. If I'm having to think about structuring my notes, then that's less likely to happen.

In fact, might it be better to take unstructured notes, and then restructure them later?

<comment><USER4> That actually makes quite a lot of sense. Step 0: Take unstructured notes Steps 1-3: Cornell method

<comment><USER5> Personally, this is my preferred approach. I feel uncomfortable making final notes the minute I have just learned something new. It's like your bubble of knowledge has to expand and connect to other thoughts and ideas in your head, otherwise my notes feel so superficial and incomplete.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I started using this just to test it out when I started studying compci a year ago.

It works relatively well for me, though I have become extremely relaxed in the way I use it.

When I started I would write much more in the "recall" column. Now when I write in the note section, I add to the recall section if it makes sense for the note (so, not always - before I would always try to write in the recall column even for things where it didn't make sense to). I also skip the summary bit out of pure laziness.

It works alright. It's become more of a routine study thing more than anything. But I do think it helps me order my thoughts, creating questions in the recall column is a useful exercise I feel.

</comment><comment><USER7> I've never regretted the "unstructured data" approach to note-taking. I write furiously fast, and copious note-taking has enhanced both aided and unaided recall. It works very well during didactic teaching sessions (as opposed to conversational, Socratic teaching). I happen not to be a fan of Socratic teaching anyway.</comment>


Ask HN:  How does this AddThis.com make money? - <AUTHOR>

I don't get it... they offer a button that goes on a page so that users can share stuff easily.  They claim to server 20b a month.  It must cost a significant amount to run those servers.<p>How are they (and several competitors) possibly making money from this? <comment> tsetse-fly Is this some sort of ploy to get us to visit that site?

It's simple: if you're not selling anything, whether it's goods, services, or ads, then you're not making money. Not all sites on the Internet exist for profit.

<comment><AUTHOR> No, it's not a ploy to get you to visit a site that I'm not at all affiliated with. Rather, I included it in the hopes that people give it a look so that they can answer the question at hand: "how do they make money?"

There are actually three ways to make money. You can sell things, receive money for nothing (donations), or steal. I would have to agree with you that selling goods, services, or ads makes money. So, I wonder, what does AddThis.com sell, and to whom? Or are they just hemorrhaging money on the servers needed to serve (and track) 20b impressions a month?

<comment> tsetse-fly They don't sell anything to anyone. The site was acquired and is operated by Clearspring, who has received $36M in funding.

<http://www.crunchbase.com/company/addthis>

<http://www.crunchbase.com/company/clearspring>

<comment><USER2> Someone still has to (indirectly?) be making money from this. My guess is that this is a great source of general web analytics data, which someone will pay to have.

<comment> tsetse-fly Yes, the idea seems to be that they'll gather and monetize the data though I don't think that's sustainable. No one _has_ to make money on this, they could fail while blowing all of their VC money.

All of these widget companies seem like a bit of a scam to me. Do you really need $36M to create a bunch of crappy widgets? I've never even seen a widget from RockYou/Slide/Widgetbox/Clearspring on any of the sites I visit.

<comment><AUTHOR> So AddThis makes out as the real winner.. they got eaten up by a bigger fish, funded by that sweet VC money, without ever having to prove themselves.

I couldn't agree more with how much money is spent on the lamest things... $36M for widgets. Then again, back in the 90's, people would pay thousands to have a counter installed on their page.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Seems difficult to make money with this, but here's a few ideas.

They could charge new link sharing sites for the privilege of being available in their widget, or for better placement.

They could start their own link sharing site / link aggregator based on the data they gather from the widgets, then of course also get prominent placement in the widget for the new site.

They could show a small ad in the widget.

</comment><comment><USER4> I don't think they do, unless they offer some premium plan I am unaware of. We use AddThis and honestly don't have much faith in them; it took over a week to reply to our e-mail informing them of a bug that was keeping us from logging into their analytics.</comment>


Patrolmen's Benevolent Association "Get Out of Jail Free" Cards - <AUTHOR> https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/01/get-jail-free-cards.html <comment><USER2> In US they have these little stickers with their "gang colors" (black and blue). I can see why they want To be treated differently, but they should be held to higher standard, not a lower one.</comment>


GNU Hyperbole 7 can turbocharge your software and info management - <AUTHOR> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-11/msg00384.html <comment><USER2> I wonder how hyperbole compares to org mode. There seems to be some overlap and org mode seems more general on first glance.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is answered on the Emacs Wiki page:

      https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Hyperbole

Org and Hyperbole are compatible with very different feature sets, so you can use both and get even more productive.

<comment><USER2> I'm not sure that this is answering my question. It's an assertion all right.</comment></comment></comment>


Researchers create active material out of microscopic spinning particles - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2020-05-material-microscopic-particles.html <comment><USER2> Reminds me of "plasma crystals": [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_plasma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dusty_plasma)

<comment><USER3> Interesting!

Didn't know there were so many different types of plasma, but apparently there are! (Who Knew? I guess you learn something new every day! <g>)

Also, intuitively (from reading that Wikipedia page), I speculate/conjecture/theorize/postulate that one of the many identities of SPACE -- is basically that of a _cold plasma_...

I leave it to future Physicists -- to prove or disprove this speculation/conjecture/theory/postulate...

<comment><USER4> Related wiki:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma)

<comment><USER3> Great link, thank you very much!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > The material also showed the ability to undergo self-repair, similar to a > biological tissue. When the researchers made a hole in the lattice, the > lattice reformed.

Amazing to think about different applications if this material can be scaled up economically!

</comment><comment><USER6> There is a lot of cool stuff happening in nano materials science I think. It doesn't quite get the mindshare it deserves.

</comment><comment><USER7> Is this the first step to achieving an Iron Man nanotech style suit?</comment>


Ask HN: What are some good to know Rails libraries/gems that one show know? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> uhh the list can go on forever but this are the gems that I often use in my projects: devise, omniauth, puma, shrine, pry, sidekiq, curb, pundit,rack- attack, Oj</comment>


Chaosnet Network Protocol - <AUTHOR> https://lm-3.github.io/amber.html <comment><USER2> > The design of Chaosnet was greatly simplified by ignoring problems > irrelevant to local networks. Chaosnet contains no special provisions for > things such as low-speed links, noisy (very high error-rate) links, multiple > paths, and long-distance links with significant transit time.

Apologies for going off-topic but it's interesting reading this carefully optimized <1 mile local network compared to how difficult it has been for so long to do basic file transfers and interaction between devices on a local network. ie, transferring photos from a phone or DSLR camera to a laptop and interacting with annoying printers.

I understand the security barriers and some of the legacy reasons why with NAT and whatnot but even modern solutions like Airdrop still have a less-than- desired UX and performance. It's randomly slow, regardless of how fast our network is capable of being.

I just want a cross platform rsync style program built directly into the OS as a first-class citizen, that doesn't require complex setups or configuration, with watching/syncing, while being something a non-technical person can use.

I still default to using HTTP cloud services like Mega/Firefox Send to send basic files as I at least know it will have predictable and reliable performance. And on linux I always set up local SSH servers on everything which comes with its own maintenance baggage.

Admittedly I haven't dug into solving this problem in recent times and tried to find modern solutions (other than Bittorrent Sync) so this may be a dated critique. But just looking at OS level stuff.

<comment><USER3> _compared to how difficult it has been for so long to do basic file transfers and interaction between devices on a local network_

 _It 's randomly slow, regardless of how fast our network is capable of being._

Have you tried a pair of netcats? That's raw TCP, and a good indication of how fast the network can be in practice. Slowness could be caused by other things, e.g. interference if it's a wireless network, a CPU or disk on one of the hosts being hogged by some other process, etc.

<comment><USER4> also bad tcp configuration...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Fun trivia: have you ever used the trick "dig @192.168.1.1 version.bind txt chaos" to ask a DNS server what its version is? You're asking it's chaosnet records (this interesting, but obsolete network type).

<comment><USER6> To be entirely accurate - it isn't obsolete.</comment></comment>


Physical 'Emoji Keyboard' for Macs and iOS Devices Lets You Type Emoji Faster - <AUTHOR> http://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/03/emojiworks-emoji-keyboard-macs-ios-devices/ <comment><AUTHOR> Frankly, I don't mind the idea (any physical keyboard giving you easier access to portions of Unicode's vast repertoire of characters is a good thing in my book), but just one option/alt key is a no-go for me. I already make huge use of it both for keyboard shortcuts and my custom keyboard layouts, so there's no way I can give up having one of each side of the keyboard. I would've probably liked this keyboard better if the emoji key was an additional key rather than it replacing one.

</comment><comment><USER2> It looks like a toy, so maybe it is intended that way. A simple screen to slide emoji and select them with a tap, leaving the keyboard as is would have been better for me. I would not buy it as is. Probably it is thought for another public anyway, I'm old skool on my emoticons ;P</comment>


Why Everyone Is Talking About Node - <AUTHOR> http://mashable.com/2011/03/10/node-js/ <comment><USER3> Does anybody else get a little question mark over their head whenever they read about the "novelty" of being able to use javascript on the server?

Certainly everybody must remember ASP, which let you write all your server- side code in Javascript way back in 1998. You can still do it today, even in ASP.NET MVC.

And just like Node, nobody ever really shared much rendering code between the client and the server using that technology either.

<comment><USER4> Yes, but nobody was talking about Javascript and Performance in the same breath. And V8 or even its creator, didn't even exist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> "The Ruby community has been criticized for being exclusive and harsh."

I haven't found that to be the case at all, unless you're asking questions that are easily solvable with a quick Google search (and that mostly stems from the flood of inane questions from Indian "programmer mill" graduates).

Node's community also benefits from the fact that a lot of people are still trying to wrap their heads around events and callbacks, so they naturally help each other through the process.

<comment><USER6> _> I haven't found that to be the case at all_

I was always baffled by this, but I from what I have read recently it seems to be a confusion between 'end-user' developers and 'ecosystem' developers.

End-user developers who only use ruby/rails/etc to build things, for work or whatever, operate on another plane from the developers of rails itself and various associated libraries.

Members of the first group generally do not need to come into contact with the machinations of the core ruby community for a long time, so we can be left a little baffled at first by these accusations of 'harshness,' all the other hackers who answer our questions on stackoverflow and write helpful instructional blog posts seem really nice!

Then eventually you read various IRC logs, mailing lists and personal blog posts by various members of project teams and certain notorious hero developers, and you realise where the accusations stem from. It doesn't seem as bad now as it was in the Rails 2 vs. Merb days however.

The most important thing for bystanders to realise however is that these criticisms of the ruby community do not actually have anything to do with the 'end-user' developers who you will be dealing with as peers on a day to day basis if you are writing a ruby project that isn't a library.

Anyway I've remembered that this thread is actually about node so I'll shut up and have breakfast.

<comment><USER7> See, that's just it. Rails is a different "community" than Ruby. And, as someone who has worked with both the better part of 5 years, I've found Ruby very open and welcoming while Rails less so.

I take more issue with Jolie's unsubstantiated remark about "the Ruby community". She casts a whole group of people in a disparaging light and doesn't been take the time to source it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Im not sold on node. Why should i ristrict myself? There are async librarys in lots of languages you can use them if you have a problem that suits the async modle but you can use other models to if they are better.

The other thing with node is that it is single threaded do do multicore you have to use process witch are slow in communicating. This could work now because we often only use quadcores but in the next years we will have many many more. Is it a solution to start node up for say 16, 80 or 1000 cores?

Im not ranting on node I hear it works fine for some stuff but the benchmarks that got everybody so exited in the beginning was not really that practical.

If I write a low level it might be fast because it maps to the C stuff good but if I write a big application with lots of layers of JS will it still be fast? (I know that V8 is getting better but it there jet for big server applications?).

Hope somebody can talks about this.

<comment><USER9> I don't get the threading criticism of Node, php and ruby are single threaded too (except for something like IronRuby which few people use).

<comment><USER10> The difference is PHP is thread (or, rather, process) per connection. Node is one process handing multiple connections.

<comment><USER11> PHP-FPM is a single process and is built into 5.3, though it requires some configuration.

<http://interfacelab.com/nginx-php-fpm-apc-awesome/>

<comment><USER10> Cool! Thanks for that... I'll definitely check it out. Looks like there are patches for earlier versions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> It's more like "Everyone is talking less about Rails" - the only new kid in Rails block is Haml/Sass and Rails is obviously stagnating compared to the hype it had couple or more years ago. Ruby/RoR is more about evolution now: Rubinius, JRuby going for stability, SalesForce adopts Heroku as one of it's development platforms - look, even one of Big 4(DTT) hires RoR-consultants now.

JavaScript on the other hand is booming both on client (SproutCore, Backbone, Cappuccino, CoffeeScript, GWT) and on server (Node). JS is just more "hackish" today - browsers are evolving day-by-day, taking more and more functionality from server - RoR isn't key to success anymore, it has become just another alternative for your REST backend.

<comment><USER13> Not sure it's fair to say Rails is stagnating. Rails 3 (particularly with the improvements in ActiveRecord) is significantly leaner and nicer to use than Rails 2.

<comment><USER12> "stagnating __compared to the hype it had couple or more years ago__"

New API for ActiveRecord, modularity, merging with Merb are very important, but it's not a game-changer. Rubinius and RubyMine on the other side are game- changers.

<comment><USER14> I welcome the stagnation! We started development with Rails when it was at 0.7, and the pain of keeping up with a rapidly developing framework was something I felt some level of resentment for.

I wouldn't say Rails is stagnating, I'd say it is maturing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Why Everyone Is Talking About Node: The very smart guys at Joyent are packaging it and pitching it perfectly.

The mobile platform has been gaining steam and so real-time interaction is becoming more important. Joyent was smart enough to see this & find a way to put their current infrastructure (lots and lots of invested $$) right into the middle of this. Node is well packaged as a solution to this. Very smart.

No doubt Node is the right solution for a lot of problems. And the guys working on it are very smart. But personally, I think that Node and Erlang compare somewhat like Lisp and C. At least at this point...

<comment><USER16> It seems you suggest that Node is Lisp and Erlang is C.

Would you mind elaborate why?

<comment><USER15> Actually, I meant it the other way around; what's popular isn't necessarily what's better.

I personally like coding in Erlang more than JS. I also personally feel the smart technology choice is Erlang -- it scales better. For me, Erlang is an easy choice, but I know that other people have different priorities that make Node the right choice.

I believe that the biggest thing holding Erlang back in this role is the fact that it's functional rather than imperative & that the syntax isn't C like. It's a complexity that many don't find worth the trouble.

[edit] for clarity & less flame

<comment><USER17> I think the main thing holding erlang back is its community culture, its source may have been open, but it was not an "open source" project until very recently, some might say it still isnt, the good news is that it is changing.

The OTP team moved erlang to github so people can see and contribute to its development.

The OTP team are moving erlangs infrastructure to open tools (the tests are switching to common test) which helps outside contribution a lot.

Community contributions are starting to pick up, <http://erlagner.org/> is finally a package manager that has been picked up by the community, <http://learnyousomeerlang.com/> is an awesome set of beginner tutorials, <http://erldocs.com/> (mine) is an easy way to browse the documentation.

Node is a lot younger but is already more mature than erlang in all the areas above, erlang is playing catch up in these regards, but it has a much more solid base.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Love this comment: "I'm still firmly convinced this recent enamour with node.js and particularly with the javascript programming language is the single biggest case of Stockholm syndrome ever." <http://mashable.com/2011/03/10/node-js/#comment-163390713>

<comment><USER19> Guh, the JavaScript based "show comments" button on the forced-to-use-mobile site completely breaks linking to comments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Comparing RoR and node.js seems truly odd. One provides an enormous framework for business logic and building sites, the other is a low level toolkit.

<comment><USER21> It seems to be a manifestation of the press's—and humanity's, I suppose—catty rage to see a conflict wherever there is a difference of opinion. I've never heard anyone compare Node to RoR except in terms of their communities, or the buzz surrounding them. They're different tools for different jobs, and the article grudgingly acknowledges that everyone seems to understand this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This doesn't seem like an article written for a technical audience.

<comment><USER23> Imagine how excited I was to see my grandmother implement her own node.js based chat app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> "It allocates web server resources on an as-needed basis, not pre-allocating a large chunk of resources for each user. For example, Apache might assign 8MB to a user, while Node assigns 8KB"

What? Apache may allocate 8MB of stack space for each thread, but that doesn't mean it consumes that much memory. This is distorting facts.

</comment><comment><USER25> Where does the author get the idea that JavaScript is easy? As a Ruby and Node developer, JS is much harder. Fewer libraries, less syntactic sugar (e.g. 3.hours.ago, 3.times) and a prototype object system.

<comment><USER26> In interest of precision, those are methods, not syntactic sugar.

<comment><USER27> and they can be implemented almost identically in Javascript (just use 3.hours().ago() - each one can return a useful value, and have helper methods just like Ruby.)

<comment><USER28> although 3.times is probably harder since all ruby methods take an implicit block as last parameter. The prettiest code you could do in node would be 3.times(function(){/ _code_ /})

It would be nice if js could rid of the keyword 'function' -- maybe make it a bit shorter like in coffeescript.

<comment><USER29> "function" will be gone soon enough - replaced (ok, augmented) in the next version of JS with "#" - so you'll be able to write: #(x) { x * x } instead of function(x){ return x * x; }

<http://brendaneich.com/2011/01/harmony-of-my-dreams/> (He indicates that the function change will land in this ((very good)) podcast: <http://www.aminutewithbrendan.com/pages/20110303>)

<comment><USER30> Which would make it 3.times(#(i) { /* code */ }). That's not bad at all.

<comment><USER31> Gah, line noise. Imagine using that + jQuery:

3.times(#(){ $("#some_id").attr("href").hide(); });

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> If you're into Node.js and Redis we (Voxer, interviewed in the article) are actually hiring engineers. We're building a Walkie Talkie for iPhone and Android.

In more technical terms Voxer is a low latency messaging system for voice, images, and text. We have an iOS client in the App Store, and an Android version is in the works. We've had explosive growth in the last couple of weeks and are now in top 25 in a bunch of app stores and we are looking for someone to help us develop the server side components and make the system scale.

Email me firstname.lastname@example.com if you want to know more and I'll connect you with the right person.

Our servers are built out of Node.js, CouchDB, and Redis. If you are excited about node, server-side JavaScript, and new databases, this is an opportunity to work on this technology full-time.

</comment><comment><USER33> _A misunderstanding of the technology is also a risk. Former Twitter engineer Alex Payne's claim that Ruby was slow continues to haunt general conversations about Ruby to this day_

The more things change, the more they stay the same! Chatter about slow will hang on even when the facts contradict.

<comment><USER34> I find it hilarious that people STILL criticise scripting languages for being slow. I mostly build sites in PHP - it's not a great language, it's not a fast language, but it really doesn't matter - page loads bottleneck on DB or front- end long before PHP's execution time becomes a problem, even without an opcode cache!

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> What I find fascinating about node.js is that it is one of a long chain of products that represent the constant repackaging of old ideas - with better results.

Twisted has been around for a long time and was the best (IMO) platform for building real time apps. Many of the first great comet apps were built on twisted. But you really have to work at using twisted - the docs aren't great, the reactor / deferred patterns take some time getting used to, and finally and most importantly the community isn't effective in evangelizing their product (sorry Glyph)

Another issue seems to be timing. Low latency apps have a current buzz and you see people rediscovering old collaborative ideas like Push to talk (referenced in the article). I wish them luck - PTT has failed spectacularly in the past but maybe will have a strong second life in a world full of smartphones. Node.js seems to riding this wave - and the backers leveraging the buzz to drive interest in the platform.

I also wonder if location is an issue. The Twisted team had a strong core in Boston while the Node interest seems to be coming out of the valley - <USER2> leveraging that environment's idea pressure cooker.

It also seems that node.js would benefit from a good implementation of the generator pattern that would enable you to write asynchronous code in a (somewhat) iterative style. Unfortunately I don't think that V8 implements any of the ecmascript extensions pioneered by Mozilla that implement yield, list comprehensions, and other fun stuff.

</comment><comment><USER36> Thanks to Mongrel2 you can do real time in Ruby too or with the language you happen to like the most or for which you have the right "business logic" libraries.

Having code in production running both NodeJS and Mongrel2, I am happy to see both of them growing.

<comment><USER37> _you can do real time in Ruby too_

Please don't overload the meaning of "real-time"; It doesn't mean "real fast".

<comment><USER38> I think we're past that point:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_web>

<comment><USER37> I saw the disambiguation page for "Real-time" again last night, and you're absolutely right.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> FWIW, the author of the article said that she's going to do a little more investigating and likely change the language she used about the Ruby community.

<https://twitter.com/elight/status/45924501715828736>

</comment><comment><USER39> Why do people cheering for new web technologies like to spread FUD against Ruby/Rails?

From the article, Ruby developers are assholes, Rails doesn't scale (for an umpteen time) and Ruby has high barrier of entry compared to Javascript (I don't know what does this even mean).

<comment><USER40> Perhaps it's because FUD drives involvement by creating division. Humans seem to love to disagree so building up an article based on random unprovable opinions usually gets people riled up and responding. It's link bait, essentially.

I haven't used node.js yet, so I can't speak for or against it. If I find a use for it I'll probably give it a try. If it doesn't feel right I can always use EventMachine in Ruby, use Erlang, Python or whatever else makes sense.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> " and it's shaping up to be as popular as Ruby on Rails among developers. "

Nope.

Not even close.

</comment><comment><USER42> A (very) similiar recent article:

[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/01/the_rise_and_rise_of...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/01/the_rise_and_rise_of_node_dot_js/print.html)

</comment><comment><USER43> I'm confused by the statement that "only one company came out of rails rumble". I freelance for a startup that has a profitable SaaS app that was born at rails rumble 2007.

</comment><comment><USER44> You would think a Rackspace sponsored article about Node.js would mention Nodejitsu, a Node.js hosting company built on top of the Rackspace cloud which has created Node.js libraries for Rackspace's cloud apis.

[http://blog.nodejitsu.com/nodejs-cloud-server-in-three- minut...](http://blog.nodejitsu.com/nodejs-cloud-server-in-three-minutes)

<https://github.com/nodejitsu/node-cloudservers>

<https://github.com/nodejitsu/node-cloudfiles>

<comment><USER45> Spam much?

<comment><USER44> This is my first time posting here. The article is sponsored by Rackspace and I do not know any other companies which are using Rackspace and Node.js. I'm interested in this area of discussion and would like to know if anyone else is using the Rackspace cloud and Node.js. I'd also be interested in knowing other ways Node.js can be setup to work with Rackspace servers. Any additional information would be much appreciated, thank you.</comment></comment></comment>


The Day John McCain Got Shot Down – Did He Show the Right Stuff? - <AUTHOR> http://pythiapress.com/wartales/McCain-Shootdown.htm <comment><USER2> And the point of this post is????</comment>


Starter League Offshoot - Starter School Emerges (9 Month Program) - <AUTHOR> http://www.starterschool.com/

<comment><USER2> Man you got some issues with the responsiveness of the site the tuition modal paragraph columns do not resize correctly so they are outside of the modal.... Might want to do a click through.</comment>


Remote zero-click JavaScript code execution on Signal desktop - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/ortegaalfredo/status/995017143002509313 <comment><USER2> Ah, yes, Electron, where a simple XSS can quickly turn into full account compromise and RCE? :O

[https://blog.doyensec.com/2017/08/03/electron-framework- secu...](https://blog.doyensec.com/2017/08/03/electron-framework- security.html)

<comment><USER3> Alas, if only there were a way to write native applications in some language other than javascript...

<comment><USER4> Serious questions:

1\. Why don't browsers execute (interpret?) languages other than JavaScript?

2\. What would be involved in having a browser execute (interpret?) other languages, such as Perl or Python?

<comment><USER3> >1\. Why don't browsers execute (interpret?) languages other than JavaScript?

I believe the general idea was that they would, because the "type" attribute in the <script> tag didn't _need_ to be "text/javascript", but javascript happened to win because it was supported by Netscape Navigator. Microsoft had VBScript, but that was an IE only product, while both browsers supported javascript, making it the only choice for cross-browser compatible scripting (albeit with lots of irritating hacks, but then jQuery came along.)

See this decent StackExchange thread here[0].

Then HTML5 deprecated the type attribute from the script tag because there really was no point anymore. Why support other languages when one language was adequate and already ubiquitous?

>2\. What would be involved in having a browser execute (interpret?) other languages, such as Perl or Python?

Today? Browsers could ship with support for those languages (the way Chrome did with Dart) but of course, that would fragment the web unless all browsers supported all options. Or maybe plugins. Or "compiling to javascript." Or Webassembly[1].

I 100% believe that seamless, dynamic language support through WASM is going to be a thing eventually.

[0][https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/2894...](https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/28947/how- did-javascript-become-popular)

[1][https://github.com/mbasso/awesome- wasm#languages](https://github.com/mbasso/awesome-wasm#languages)

<comment><USER5> Chrome never shipped Dart support. There was a modified version of Chromium with Dart support called Dartium, but it was discontinued with Dart 2.x.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It'll be interesting to see how this works, given that the Signal Desktop client's main page (background.html) includes a CSP that restricts it from running inline or external scripts. It can only run JS that's already in the Signal Desktop package (in theory).

The fact that this isn't being described as an issue with CSPs or electron makes me wonder how it could possibly work.

<comment><USER7> Electron is unsafe because it's based on outdated versions of Chromium: [https://github.com/signalapp/Signal- Desktop/issues/1635](https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/issues/1635)

<comment><USER6> You've linked that thread a couple of times here, never really elaborating on the nature of your concerns, nor do you elaborate on the specific nature of your concerns in the ticket. Have you considered elaborating on the nature of your concerns? Is there a specific vulnerability in chromium you feel could be exploited here?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's time to admit that we can't fix web security anymore, and that we should just start anew. XSS, SQLi, cross origin flaws, etc. There are just too many vectors for a human developer to make a correct implementation.

<comment><USER9> > It's time to admit that we can't fix web security anymore

It seems like this was fixed in a newer version of chromium.. a version that electron is _not_ based on. This particular problem exists purely because they used a framework that depends on a ridiculously complicated backend, one that the framework has chosen not to follow closely (despite the backend addressing security issues relatively timely)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Signal desktop app is based on the insecure Electron runtime. See my report here: [https://github.com/signalapp/Signal- Desktop/issues/1635](https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Desktop/issues/1635)

<comment><USER10> I read the (now locked) thread, the way they handled the report leaves much to be desired.</comment></comment>


What is happening in Robotics? (Why are Robotics firms collapsing) [audio] - <AUTHOR> https://www.cognilytica.com/2020/07/08/ai-today-podcast-whats-happening-with-robotics/ <comment><USER2> This is a content-free podcast. Don't bother.</comment>


Obama Describes the Trans-Pacific Partnership - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/the-trans-pacific-partnership/here-s-the-deal-the-text-of-the-trans-pacific-partnership-103adc324500 <comment><USER2> We certainly need to initiate leadership in trade in the Asia Pacific region before China writes the rules of the road. If the last 7 years are any indication China's rulebook our inaction will result in them owning everything within a 1000 mile radius of their coastline and using dirty extraction and dirty construction to turn Vietnam, Indonesia and others into pollution leading concrete jungles similar to Beijing. Question is whether the measures to protect American manufacturing in key growth industries are enough to offset free labor, and whether they are truly market-based and therefore sustainable. I'll enjoy reviewing</comment>


Monica Cellio's account of losing her moderator status on Stack Exchange - <AUTHOR> https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/stack-overflow-inc-sinat-chinam-and-the-goat-for-azazel <comment><USER2> For those who don't need all the inside baseball up front, jump to the lengthly footnote for the gist, which itself doesn't exactly get to the point:

> ... The policy is an update to the Code of Conduct that requires us to use > people's preferred pronouns (when known). ... I completely agree that it is > rude to call people what they don't want to be called; knowingly > misgendering someone is not ok. But the policy was about positive, not > negative, use of pronouns. I pointed out that ... [I] write in a gender- > neutral way specifically to avoid gender landmines, and sought clarification > that this would continue to be ok. To my surprise, other moderators in the > room said that not using (third-person singular) pronouns at all is > misgendering. The employee never clarified, and this is one of the questions > I asked in email. In my email I said clearly that I'm on board with "use > preferred pronouns when using pronouns", but from the fact that they fired > me without warning (or answering the question), I conclude that that's not > the policy. I haven't seen an actual policy, though I am being accused of > violating it.

Further condensing, moderator asked questions about proposed policy change requiring proactive use of people's preferred pronouns. These questions were not answered. After lengthy back-and-forth, moderator status was revoked.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's good to know that our community platforms are safe in the hands of people who will throw you under the bus at the slightest hint that you might be less than perfectly enthusiastic about consistently toeing the party line. It's very inclusive of them.

</comment><comment><USER4> tldr: In response to a proposed StackExchange rule change requiring moderators to use users preferred pronouns when addressing them, the author asked if it was acceptable to continue writing in a gender neutral way; without using first person pronouns. This was viewed as unacceptable and lead to an immediate termination.

This is only one side of the story, but seems appalling at first glance.

<comment><USER5> The goal of the moderator is to enforce the rules, if you can't accept the rules why would you be a moderator?

<comment><USER6> These rules have not been decided yet. Mod was terminated because of a simple discussion of new rules.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Last year in the wake of the Linux CoC thing, y'all were quick to downmod anyone who commented that CoCs might be used to enforce political orthodoxy.

And now here we are.

Also of note is an emerging new standard: Actual CoC violations are not the threshold for punishment, perceived risk of potential CoC violations is. I saw Aurynn Shaw advocate for this position earlier this year[0], and knew dark times were a-coming; it was hot-takey enough to sound like a great idea to people who pride themselves on being radicals.

[0] [https://mobile.twitter.com/aurynn/status/1128053124323655680](https://mobile.twitter.com/aurynn/status/1128053124323655680)

</comment><comment><USER8> Are we peak woke yet? If not, slightly afraid of what it will be.

</comment><comment><USER9> > do what we believe fosters a spirit of inclusion and respect

... by forcing 99% of users to bend to the will of the remaining 1%?

</comment><comment><USER10> Freedom of speech. Wars are fought over freedoms as fundamental as this.

Do so many people not understand that trying to limit the freedom of others for your own personal benefit is tantamount to tyranny and oppression? The very thing they claim they are against?

<comment><USER11> I disagree with SO's rationale as stated, but losing mod privileges on a wiki is not even close to a fundamental violation of freedom of speech tantamount to tyranny and oppression over which wars have historically been fought. On the radar of behind-the-scenes drama that can go on with forums between administrators and moderators, this doesn't even raise a blip.

<comment><USER10> Their /intent/ is oppression of speech anywhere and anyway they can make it happen. It will likely happen here eventually too.

The fact that the space this is currently being fought over is a corporate sponsored forum is irrelevant to the intent of this group of people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Stack Exchange is a weird place. I've generally found their user community pretty hostile. I find the idea of giving people badges for downvoting to capture something about their negativity.

<comment><USER13> hn is weird in similar regards. you get downvoted and you have no idea who downvoted you and why...

<comment><USER14> Not to mention that at as a comment gets downvoted it'll turn more and more desaturated and harder to read, literally silencing someone over a disagreement.

<comment><USER15> This is one of the annoying features of HN that is unfair to the person making the comment. I, as the reader, should decide if I want to read it or not.

<comment><USER14> Agreed. Thankfully the fading goes away if you click into the comment itself (i.e. on the timestamp next to the username), but it's still annoying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In this thread we learn how (I would say overly) invested some people are with online forums.

</comment><comment><USER17> Code of Conducts - have they ever done any good? Maybe installing a CoC should be considered an inflammatory act in itself.

<comment><USER18> Yes, a Code of Conduct can be a good thing. A good CoC is about the outcome, not the action. For instance, a good CoC in software development has things like:

* Write your code for other people who may be up at 3am trying to figure out what's wrong with the logic.

* Be considerate of other ideas, smart people who disagree are usually both correct but differ in benefits and consequences.

* Consider if you are writing beyond the scope of the ticket, no code is easier/faster to debug/understand than no code.

Notice, there are no rules of what to do, but what is attempting to be avoided. Unfortunately, the Western Thinking (TM) (as opposed to Eastern Thinking) asks the question "What is...?" Like:

* What is the correct way to address someone?

* What is the acceptable code style?

* What are the maximum number of lines in a function?

The problem with this thinking is that it ignores outcome and enforces concrete thinking. The irony here being that the goal is to be considerate of people and they are being utterly inconsiderate to the moderator.

<comment><USER17> But are your suggestions a "Code of Conduct"? Like would anybody be expelled from a community for "not thinking about people who may be up at 3am trying to figure out their code"?

They are good suggestions, but I would put them in another category than CoCs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> This was precisely the argument in the Canadian Senate, 2 years ago, that propelled Jordan Peterson to public visibility. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIAAkSNtqo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnIAAkSNtqo)

<comment><USER20> Precisely? No definitely not precisely. The question at hand here is whether or not absence of pronouns constitutes misgendering, and the real crux of the issue is a lack of communication between staff and the moderator in question. I fail to see how that is meaningfully related to legislation which sought to classify intentional misgendering as a form of harassment in the work place.

<comment><USER19> The fundamental question of whether or not it was to be deemed malicious if someone were not to inquire about and use someone's preferred pronouns -- and not simply use generic pronouns or personal names -- was central to that debate. I guess it just goes to show how widely disparate opinions around this topic can be, given that you and I can't even agree as to what the argument is about!

<comment><USER20> Part of the problem is that Peterson really obfuscated the nature of the legislation. It was never about whether or not misgendering someone is malicious, it added workplace protections against discrimination.

Peterson, for the sake of his own career, made it into the larger debate you describe. In fairness, it's a debate that engages a lot of people, but the legislation in Canada was never intended to affect common parlance.

<comment><USER19> Very interesting. Your comments are the first I've heard that the law only applied to workplace discrimination. This seems a pretty thorough overview: [http://sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about- crimi...](http://sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about- criminalizing-pronoun-misuse/). Like most legal things these days, it clearly gets complicated very quickly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> What are the chances that her religious zeal is part of the decision?

<comment><USER22> Why are you accusing her of such? Where's your proof?

<comment><USER23> I think the parent is more asking, "what are the chances that her religious affiliation played a role in SE's decision?" It's a fairly loaded question.

<comment><USER22> Because she's Jewish/a moderator of the Judaism forum?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Cry me a river. SO mods are overzealous hall monitors who work for badges instead of money. They get what they deserve. Now she knows what it's like to be flagged as a dupe. You can beg and plead but the mod has spoken, so you move over to Reddit and if that doesn't work, Google groups.</comment>


The Internet is changing its mind about Elon Musk - <AUTHOR> https://hackernoon.com/the-internet-is-changing-its-mind-about-elon-musk-4af75b292135 <comment><USER2> I knew this would happen when people started worshiping him. Our culture loves to elevate people to near Godhood and then smash them down. It's our own symbolic version of ritual human sacrifice. Maybe it ensures a bountiful harvest.

Both his cult of personality and the new attacks on him are vast exaggerations. Elon is just human. He does great things and he also says and does stupid shit and makes mistakes just like everyone else.

His apparent genius stems from two factors IMHO. One is that he actually is pretty smart, but another is that he looks super-human next to the know- nothing MBA apparatchiks that dominate American business today. He seems incredible in his ability to deliver on very tough technological innovation because he's actually an engineer who runs a company. Most companies today are run by people who barely understand what the company does. If most companies were run by engineers with domain expertise in their areas Elon would not seem so atypical.</comment>


Google Is #4 In China As It Continues To Lose Market Share - <AUTHOR> http://searchengineland.com/google-is-4-in-china-as-it-continues-to-lose-market-share-139104 <comment><USER2> You can't fight Governments unless you form some kind of alliance with at least 20 other big tech companies in that country, and _then_ demand they stop asking you to censor stuff. A Government, especially one as big as the Chinese one, won't care about a single company.

I thought it was a failed opportunity for Google, Microsoft, Facebook, RIM, Nokia and others to form this sort of alliance in India, when the Goverment asked them for access to people's data and to censor some of it. If they would've done that instead of each of them scrambling to agree with the "order", they might've gotten somewhere.

</comment><comment><USER3> The #3 entry has a cute Googlesque home-page game today. It's like an alternate reality for Anglophone web users: when the game ends, the share butttons aren't Twitter, Facebook and G+, but Weibo, Sohu and QQ.

<http://www.sogou.com/>

</comment><comment><USER4> I was staying in Shenzhen China a couple of weeks ago, it is completely obvious why google is not popular - every other search request I made is slow or just white screen dies. I would not even think to use another search engine normally but even I used Baidu whilst there. Far far too painful to do anything else.

</comment><comment><USER5> Competition is a good thing IMO. Nothing wrong with not being #1 everywhere.

<comment><USER6> So a state promoting their own monitored search engines by rendering a competitor unusable is a good thing?

<comment><USER5> So you are saying that you prefer globalization with US companies coming in and showing a country how things should be run? I think that's up to the country to decide, and not American (companies).

<comment><USER7> Er, no he's not saying that. He's saying _users_ should be able to decide what they like, rather than being coerced by their government into choosing what the government likes best...</comment></comment></comment></comment>


North Korea Is Not Crazy - <AUTHOR> https://www.recordedfuture.com/north-korea-cyber-activity/ <comment><USER2> I find easy to understand how the Leadership can subjugate a poor and hungry population, even making them believe in the divinity of their ruler. What I don't understand is how North Korea is able to keep aligned people educated enough to direct and operate this kind of actions. The skills required to carry out these attacks, for example, would make someone very valuable on a Western market. At the same time these people have access to the outside world, they have to know that there is a better opportunity for them outside. So why walk the line of the party? A lot of these attaks are probably the work of mercenary groups, but there must be key IT figures inside the regime at least managing these efforts.

<comment><USER3> Because you like not getting shot?

Even more concretely, people working in the government likely live comfortably enough.

It's also not exactly simple to leave even if you want to. You can get to China, but they'll probably send you back. SK might want you but crossing the DMZ is tricky. I think there are also restrictions on movements within the country. Imagine if you work in some random city in the middle of the country. Good luck getting to a border, let alone crossing it.

And perhaps there aren't better opportunities outside.

Imagine being a NK sysadmin. You defect to South Korea, you probably won't be able to enter the IT market easily (no "real" diploma + realities of the job market) so you'll end up doing part-time at a supermarket or something. Not to mention that you'll probably suffer discrimination due to your background as well. Meanwhile you sacrificed your family.

The trade-off is not obvious at all.

<comment><USER4> Surely the SK government would be interested in employing an ex-NK sysadmin, who will have intimate knowledge of NK networks?

<comment><USER5> Debriefing/deposing them, sure. Employing them, I doubt it. You can't give them much in the way of access or privileges, lest they turn out to be a spy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This article is a history lesson on NK's past and current state sponsored spying and cyber attacks and ends with advice to companies, banks, et. al. to stay vigilant to all sorts of future f*ckery.

Curse you Pyongyang! If it weren't for you I wouldn't need a firewall or security plan at all.

</comment><comment><USER7> I did not have the time to read the whole article, but I searched for "nucl" and did not find reference to nuclear weapons... so I can add this:

That apparently the US has been threatening a nuclear attack on North Korea since Eisenhower days. How can the US be surprised that this country wants nuclear weapons of it's own?</comment>


I got this, I think it's a phishing email, how do I alert Gmail about it? - <AUTHOR>

I got this, I think it's a phishing email, how do I alert Gmail about it?<p>>>><p>Due to recent upgrade in our database, we are terminating all unverified accounts permanently. Reply and give the information below:Username,P/word,Date of Birth,Phone&Country. Note! You have one week to comply. Gmail Inc. All rights reserved.
   Inbox
Add star
Gmail Team <firstname.lastname@example.com> 	Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:16 PM <comment><USER2> [https://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answ...](https://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=184963)

<comment><AUTHOR> Many Thanks</comment></comment>