Don't Lose the Thread. The Economy Is Experiencing an Epic Collapse of Demand - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/upshot/coronavirus-economic-crisis.html <comment><USER2> I'm constantly boggled by stories about how the "economy" is doing badly. Of course it is. As part of a reasonable response to a pandemic people have decided (at least until recently) that venturing out and exposing themselves and their loved ones to a deadly virus is a bad idea and have stayed inside rather than spending. Further, many governments have (until recently) instated reasonable restrictions on businesses to curb the spread of the disease. Complaining that the economy is doing badly is like a family in WWII complaining that it's dark because they've shut off all the lights due to an air raid.

All the hand wringing about the economy indicates a great failing of our society, that we are incapable of viewing world events through a lens other than that of the artificial and arbitrary statistics that have come to define "the economy".

What's important is not whether "the economy" is doing well but whether people are able to feed themselves, whether they have shelter, and whether they are able to protect themselves from the virus, things that the numbers that define "the economy" are unrelated to for the most part.

Governments should focus on those things rather than propping up some "economy" by forcing people to decide between being exposed to the virus and being able to provide food and shelter for their families.

We certainly don't lack food or shelter, at least in the US, so we should make sure people have those, at a minimum. Certainly there's no collapse of demand for those and I have no doubt that they can be provided to people in need without endangering either the producers or the consumers until the virus subsides.

<comment><USER3> Your lofty ideals do not match the reality of living in the US.

What you think governments should focus on is not what they are doing for individuals. A $1200 stimulus check doesn't go that far.

Most small businesses pay their owner only a salary, they cannot afford to shut down for several months. All that deferred store rent has to paid back, and that isn't going to happen with 1% to 10% margins.

The mortality rate for corona is 1/1000 for people under 70, which is only double a bad flu year. I can guarantee the coming economic problems will have a much higher cost in terms of lives, and more, than that.

We are continuing lockdown post-April because of flawed corona models with a deliberately late start date that inflates estimates.

This is exacerbated by the Nov. elections paralyzing politicians. And Newsom wants to be President, so his best option is to make no decision that could cause controversy for him later.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> For those with uninterrupted income: I wonder how much the illusion of consumption == happiness has been upended by the shutdown. People make other people happy not stuff, and depriving a lot of people from contact with other humans may (for a while) refocus our attention on that. Being able to be with other humans is the new luxury.

For unemployed: They may be too sacred to start buying stuff if they do have income (or govt checks) in case of a second wave (or relapse of the first).

Also, there's also a whole group who realizes the economy is in free fall and are holding their collective breath. As my father would always say, the fall doesn't kill you, it's just the sudden stop at the bottom.

<comment><USER5> I own a shed manufacturing company in the midwest. Our orders are up 200% since the _start_ of the lockdown.

If the economy is in free fall, we don't see it.

<comment><USER6> Anecdotal. Demand on particular goods and services has shifted, but is overall net down. And whenever there is a threat of recession, large corporations scale back investment, jobs, purchases, and manufacturing.

<comment><USER5> Not to mention that the booming housing market is making it difficult to get lumber, plywood and siding for my business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Um. Everyone has been told to stay home and not socialise. Is it any wonder that there's much less economic activity?

The problem is how fast we resume? Which does smell like it'll take mass vaccination to be completed as a pre-requisite..</comment>


Introduction to runc - <AUTHOR> https://danishpraka.sh/2020/07/24/introduction-to-runc.html <comment><USER2> In addition to runc, I'd like to point out an alternative OCI runtime implementation, crun ([https://github.com/containers/crun](https://github.com/containers/crun)). You can play with both either directly, or through Podman ([https://podman.io/](https://podman.io/))

Useful for cgroups v2 too.

<comment><USER3> There is also a rust implementation that I wrote in my time at Oracle. Unfortunately they no longer maintain it, but there is a fork with some more recent updates: [https://github.com/drahnr/railcar](https://github.com/drahnr/railcar)

<comment><USER4> Sounds like you are no longer at Oracle. Was this at Oracle Cloud in Seattle? Can you talk about their Rust adoption?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Unfortunately on mobile the zoom is fixed (I can't zoom out, didn't know that was possible) and I can't see the left and right edges of the text.

<comment><USER6> I hate when they do that. Here is a bookmarklet that will fix those pages:

        javascript:document.querySelector('meta[name=viewport]').setAttribute('content','width=device-width,initial-scale=1.0,maximum-scale=10.0,user-scalable=1');

The real fix is of course to complain to the page author.

<comment><USER7> Reader mode on Firefox does a great job too!

<comment><USER8> Reader mode in Safari on iOS works great as well, but the zoom level doesn't seem to be fixed, either. It's initially zoomed in but I'm able to zoom out and it will stay.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Are there any runc shims that just use processes (I know, containers are just processes) ignoring network/user/etc namespace isolation and other Linux- specific security features? For example a shim that could run native MacOS processes on MacOS, native FreeBSD binaries on FreeBSD, etc. just by executing the processes directly.

The point of this would be to take advantage of the Docker ecosystem for _scheduling_ particularly in developer environments. Specifically I'd like a "docker-compose for processes" that can run on any system and just handles scheduling multiple processes together but without requiring root access to modify init scripts or systemd services at the system level.

<comment><USER9> Isnt that what Foreman and its Procfile handle?

[https://github.com/ddollar/foreman](https://github.com/ddollar/foreman)

<comment><USER5> Maybe, but I don't want to learn a new config system. Developers are so familiar with docker-compose I just want to use that.

<comment><USER10> This developer not.

<comment><USER5> Sorry for the overly broad brush. :) But the existence of this shim doesn't mean you have to use it.

<comment><USER10> Nor do I have to use Docker.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> wget directly to /usr/bin. Am I the only one who cringes upon such a pattern? I am probably too old. I recently almost doubled over when I saw that /sbin is now a symlink to /usr/sbin on bullseye. Even worse, /lib/modules is a symlink to /usr/lib/modules. Try $ find /lib -name \ _mlx5\_ and learn how find treats symlinks.</comment>


PayDragon (YC S11) raises $1.35M so hungry people can skip lines - <AUTHOR> http://pandodaily.com/2012/07/27/paydragon-raises-1-35-million-so-hungry-people-can-skip-lines/ <comment><USER2> > _The round included Rustic Canyon Ventures, Ron Conway's SV Angel, Yuri > Milner, Mark Schwartz, and a follow-on investment by Y Combinator._

A follow-on investment from YC? I wasn't aware that they do follow-ons.

<comment><USER3> There was a mistake in the article. The additional investment was from SV Angel and Yuri Milner, not Y Combinator. We apologize for the confusion, and the mistake has been corrected.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> So, this is online ordering on your phone?

> _"Users skip to the front of the line, receive their item, and get on with > their lives."_

How will that work in practice? I'm quite sure if I'm constantly skipped over in line by people getting priority over me because they have an iPhone app, I'll discontinue business at the establishment.

<comment><USER5> You order on your phone, you wait, you pick up your food. If people don't order in advance then they stand in line.

Its a long overdue concept. Being able to have my order ready without waiting would make me far more likely to eat out.

<comment><USER4> > _"Its a long overdue concept. Being able to have my order ready without > waiting would make me far more likely to eat out."_

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've been placing orders online for years. Order, go pick it up (or even have it delivered!). Obviously the app could simplify that by having all my restaurants there in one place, but I'm not sure the "concept" is new.

<comment><USER6> This is the essence of take-out. Except, on the phone instead of calling, faxing(!) or ordering online. See: chipotle

<comment><USER7> The original online ordering systems for pizza places would actually generate a fax to the restaurant with your order.

<comment><USER8> Ah, i remember reading about xpizza. The manpage included

      BUGS:

      Some of the staff at the pizza place
      don't know how to operate the fax machine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> >PayDragon is based on the premise that waiting in line to purchase items is neither good for the customer or the merchant.

In NY when you see a place with a line you get intrigued. Sometimes a queue is a great advertisement for people walking by.

<comment><USER10> In the UK, you will generally avoid places that _don't_ have a queue. They must be quiet for a reason, right?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> The interesting thing about this is that 80% of the restaurants are food trucks. This is perfect for trucks where you inevitably wait on line to order, then stand around in the cold for your order to be ready. Couple with that fact that this can act for a discovery service for trucks, which tend to move and as of now rely on twitter to broadcast their location. But you have to know the food truck exists before you can even follow them. This is a food truck guide and order service in one.

</comment><comment><USER12> I just downloaded the PayDragon app, and the "Discover" feature is one of the more intriguing aspects. I regularly look for interesting, convenient food, and aside from walk-bys, it's not all that easy to find in my neighborhood.

EDIT: In Manhattan, however, PayDragon only has one restaurant in the "Discover" category right now—it's Murray's Cheese, which might be delightful, but it's also somewhat far and not especially appealing.

</comment><comment><USER13> This seams like a nice version of seamless.com, no? Seamless could doubtless be made better, but I'm curious as to why a merchant would go with these guys rather than Seamless (which has tons of users already.) As a frequent Seamless user, I'm also not sure why I'd give another app a shot—why would I switch (and I'm to switching, too)? Regardless, it looks nice and quick. Best of luck!

<comment><USER14> I think one of their main objectives is providing speed to ordering. Instead of providing a full menu experience, they would provide something like six items without customization.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is funny since one of General Assembly's first blog post was about how this concept of skipping lines wasn't a viable lean start-up idea. Take a look. [http://generalassemb.ly/blog/a-case-study-on-getting- started...](http://generalassemb.ly/blog/a-case-study-on-getting-started-with- lean-startup-methodology/)

<comment><USER16> Apples and oranges -- I think framing is a big issue: "I ordered 30min in advance from my phone and will take food to go" vs "I would like to pay a premium to get ahead of others waiting in line". The latter obviously stings of people's differing time value of money (or I guess more appropriately, money value of their time).

<comment><USER15> Yea you are right to some extent, but then what is the difference between seamless pickup or calling and ordering(human interaction, scary i know) and PayDragon? Seamless has a great mobile app too. I think they are entering a red sea.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Genuine question: how is this different from companies that already have significant traction for pickup-orders like GrubHub and Seamless?

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm following these guys with interest as I'm British and detest queuing. It's a waste of useful time, and frequently I'll bail out before purchase. Something like this is good for employment stats (you still need staff to handle the transaction) compared to automated checkout machines.

</comment><comment><USER19> This app would, for example, never happen in Greece. Every fast food/street food shop here delivers, and I would be surprised if any restaurant denied phone orders.

The norm here is that you order by phone and your food gets delivered, nobody waits for food.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is it just me or building such an app should cost $50k-$100k? Why do they need $1.35M?

<comment><USER21> Sales and marketing. Engineering usually isn't the biggest problem with companies who work with SMBs, particularly in local.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think they're competing with at least one company who is pretty far ahead in the market like gopago. Their presence seems pretty big in SF at least...I've used it in SF a few times and it's pretty convenient.

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm still waiting for major fast food companies to start making their own ordering apps like this. No having to explain complicated orders through an intercom. No having to wait in long drive through lines.

<comment><USER24> Mcdonnalds in europe has installed touch screens you can order from.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> And if everyone uses it, there will be lines. Of hungry people.

<comment><USER26> The idea is the computer will wait in line, not the person.

i.e. you still have to wait for the food to be ready, you just don't have to do it in person.</comment></comment>


Just because it's there doesn't mean you should use it - <AUTHOR> http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2020/09/05/wire/ <comment><USER2> These things are handy for devices that use the higher current when fully operational, but need power for initial setup. In IT, the main thing that comes to mind are managed PDUs. You want to be able to power up the control unit to get things like networking configured, and you don't want to be doing that while standing in the data center balancing a laptop on your knee. With this, you can get it setup in the office, then go in and start pulling floor tiles to get it plugged in to the high Amp plug with all the settings pre- configured. To be clear, when you're doing the setup you don't have any actual equipment connected to the PDU; you're just getting power to the unit itself to get power to the management circuitry.

<comment><USER3> Pretty much everyone that owns an RV (in the US) has an adapter that converts the 14-50P (50 amp!) plug on the RV to a 5-15P that can be plugged into common household sockets. You can't run the A/C without popping a breaker but it'll keep the fridge and lights on.

The breaker, not the connector, provides safety.

<comment><USER4> The breaker is there to protect against faults, not someone intentionally violating what it is protecting against.

<comment><USER5> Not true. Breakers are most definitely intended to protect against overcurrent situations regardless of whether it's user or equipment caused. (For example, unintentionally plugging 30 amps of kitchen appliances into a single 20 amp circuit. Don't ask how I know.)

That being said, you should never intentionally rely on a safety feature to cut you out - they exist as a backup in case you screw up. The 14-50P to 5-15P adapter referred to by GP is an example of "I know what I'm doing". Just be sure to double check that you really do.

Edit: Also, consider that if you're in a jurisdiction where it's legal to have a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit (many places in the US unfortunately) then a cable like this could allow you to draw a sustained current above what the receptacle is rated for but below what would trip the breaker. That's a fire hazard.

<comment><USER6> "Edit: Also, consider that if you're in a jurisdiction where it's legal to have a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit"

15amp receptacles sold in the US are 20 amp passthrough.

So it is common practice _and completely reasonable and safe_ to put 15amp outlet receptacles on a 20amp circuit _because the 15amp receptacle cannot accept a physical 20amp plug_.

It is NEC Compliant _unless_ the receptacle is the only receptacle in the 20amp circuit - see "210.21 Outlet Devices".

<comment><USER5> I knew many of them were rated to 20 amps in spite of the form factor but I didn't realize they _all_ were. TIL.

In that case I guess the cable that triggered the article in the first place is no more dangerous than (for example) the 8 receptacles in my bedroom, all on the same circuit (15 amp IIRC). It's a complete non-issue.

Edit: Are the plug and cable guaranteed to be able to handle 20 amps though? From the pictures in the article, it appears someone spliced a 20 amp receptacle onto a typical (maybe not even 15 amp?) PC power cord.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I built one of these to use a surplus APC power distribution unit (basically a really tall power strip with an ethernet port for monitoring) at my house, because the PDU has a molded 30 amp 120V locking plug that I didn't want to cut off. There's no 240V or three-phase plugs on the thing, and I'm not running any more or any different equipment than if I used a more traditional cheap power strip. It's really nice to be able to have a tall sturdy PDU running up the back of my rack instead of that, though!

My adapter is obviously out of spec and I wouldn't leave such a thing behind for an unsuspecting future tenant to find, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it in my particular situation. I love Rachel's posts but I wish they didn't have this pervasive air of looking down on the stupid people who did the horrible-thing-of-the-week :/

e: the PDU and plug in question: [http://i.imgur.com/sUOzquZ.jpeg](http://i.imgur.com/sUOzquZ.jpeg)

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h > I love Rachel's posts but I wish they didn't have this pervasive air of > looking down on the stupid people who did the horrible-thing-of-the-week

I generally agree, but some things _are_ over the line, and a fire hazard feels like a good case.

<comment><USER8> It's minimally a fire hazard and it's very handy to have when you know what you're doing.

<comment><USER9> But it ended up in the hands of someone who didn't. That really makes it a much bigger problem.

"This is OK if used by persons in the know" is not helping: Rachel wasn't/isn't in the know. So clearly, people without the proper knowledge can get their hands on this cable.

<comment><USER10> So certain are you?

I knew it was probably trouble just from a glance. Knowing this topic would bring out every single nitpicker, I did the actual research to be doubly-sure before writing the post.

You might be surprised how much extra shit goes into my posts just to avoid the inevitable backlash. It's not good enough to have a reasonable amount of knowledge. You have to go _well beyond_ into the arcane to avoid the sniping from this crew.

And even then, well, THE ONE shows up time and again.

<comment><USER11> Is Beldin really nitpicking you?

The way I read Beldin's comment was that it essentially agrees with your post. And HN's guidelines say:

>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

<comment><USER12> I also didn't read that comment as nitpicking. It wasn't doubting the author knowledge about the criticism, it was mentioning that the author was not aware of the reason of why that was made, was able to have access to it and _could_ have used improperly if she didn't know any better. But she did.

It is like someone else commented, there are reasonable, ocasional use cases for this that are safe, but the cable should be locked somewhere with the name of the person that knows why it was built in it; so it's not out in the wild for abuse.

That's only my perception of course.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Really, worrying about 20 amp in a 15 amp circuit?

If one likes to worry about such things, there are much scarier things: unswitched extension cords [0]. One 15 amp plug in input, three 15-amp outlets on outputs. Sold in most stores and used very widely. Nothing illegal about it. Plugs into 15 amp rated outlet, wire itself is rated for just 13 amps, and you can pull up to 45 amps in the worst case (like if you plug in three electric kettles).

[0] [https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-12-ft-2-Wire-16-Gauge- Polariz...](https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-12-ft-2-Wire-16-Gauge-Polarized- Indoor-Extension-Cord-White-51954/203806535)

<comment><USER14> Wouldn't the breaker trip if you try to suck 45 amps through a 15 or 20 amp breaker?

<comment><USER15> After a minute, I think. Depends on your breaker rating.

20 amps on a 15 amp breaker will take a while to trip. You will have wiring damage.

<comment><USER16> Over here in Germany we call the breakers Leitungsschutzschalter, which translates to wiring protection switch. They're specifically sized to protect the wiring in an overload situation, both gradual overloads and short circuits.

The main issue is actually with the slightly-less trigger-happy breakers (class D) needing a sufficiently low resistance on the output to ensure that the magnetic trigger is both reliably triggered if you short the outlet, yet reliably not triggered by the current spike allowed from it's class. They trigger between 10 and 20 times the nominal rating, and 16 A is the typical circuit choice here. Ensuring that you reliably hit 320 A through a long circuit isn't the easiest/cheapest thing.

<comment><USER17> Class B should be used for home use, and all domestic appliances should not trigger it.

C/D are more appropriate for industrial use, where wiring and devices are designed beforehand, and people (ideally) won't just join together extension cords, and put multiple electric motors on it.

<comment><USER16> C is quite typical for new installations due to the abundance of SMPS's, which can easily cause issues after a power loss due to the combined inrush current.

But yeah, D is indeed rare, and not typically found in domestic installations.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's worse than that! That's a NEMA L6-20, not a L5-20. That means whatever's on the other end is expecting a 240V, 20A source. And you're providing 120V, 15A.

If you're _really_ lucky, it'll start in "safe mode" with a warning light or message. If you're just lucky, it'll refuse to start at all. If you're unlucky, it'll run but silently limit its capability, so you don't know about your ticking time bomb. And if you're _really_ unlucky, the power supply on the other end is a SMPS which will try to pull down 40 amps....

EDIT: Never mind. The photo appears to be _marked_ L6-20R, but that's an illusion. It's actually shaped, and if you squint marked, to match an L5-20R, which is 125V 20A. Carry on....

</comment><comment><USER19> I have a short adapter like this for my dual boiler espresso machine. You can configure the machine to allow both boilers to come on simultaneously, which brings the machine up to temperature faster, but requires a 20 amp circuit, or you can configure it to only allow one boiler to be on at a time (alternating between the two, when necessary), which takes longer to warm up initially, but allows you to use a 15 amp circuit.

The machine has a 20 amp plug, because it's physically capable of drawing 20 amps. I have a 15 amp circuit, so I took extra care to enable the 15 amp mode and verify that it was working as intended.

These cables _can_ be okay to use if you understand what you're doing _and are not violating the rules_. They're obviously not supposed to be used to blindly ignore the wire or breaker ratings.

It's like using `unsafe` in Rust. You're still absolutely not allowed to dereference null, even though you might be able to. You're telling the compiler, "I know you can't verify that what I'm doing is safe, but I promise that I've checked it, and it's fine." That's the same deal you're making when you use one of these cables.

</comment><comment><USER20> In the same vein, it was popular around Christmas to use male to male power cords (known as a suicide cord) to string lights together, they were even available on Amazon:

[https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Male-12-Gauge-Connection- Extensi...](https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Male-12-Gauge-Connection- Extension/dp/B0035Z13FI)

OSHA, anyone?

I get that it solved a problem for someone, but I feel a little uncomfortable just looking at it...

<comment><USER21> What's the issue with these? They look as safe as any other fuse-less extension cable to me. As long as you have a fuse somewhere in the circuit, what's the problem?

<comment><USER22> You plug one end into a hot AC outlet. Now the other end has hot 110-120V AC on exposed pins. Touch them and you are in for a bad time.

A normal extension cord like we've all used has a plug at one end and a _socket_ at the other, so you won't get killed by simply mishandling it.

I love this part of the product description:

"It Can Help Protect Your Family And Keep Them Safe"

Right...

Having said that, the longer Product Description With Every Word Capitalized explains the use case somewhat:

You've lost power and it will be likely be out for quite some time. But you had the foresight to have a generator and one of these cords. You plug one end into your generator and the other end into an ordinary wall outlet. Now every outlet on that circuit will be powered from your generator.

However, your normal fuse or circuit breaker will not protect you from an overload on that circuit, because you've just hotwired your generator into the "house" side of the circuit. So, as the description says, you may be able to power your refrigerator and some lights, but overload the circuit and you may burn your house down.

Also be sure to turn off that breaker or remove the fuse on that circuit. Otherwise you will be having some fun when power is restored!

Oh gosh, it gets even better. Check out the reviews on the Amazon listing!

Finally, I would like to thank the parent commenter for asking an honest question. Perhaps it sounded naive to some, but I appreciate a question like that, as it gave several of us a chance to explain the issues around this kind of electrical cord.

<comment><USER23> That brings a lot of needed context to this image I saw a long time ago.

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESHx9kxVAAA9_zi.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESHx9kxVAAA9_zi.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Ideally the plug end would be a 20a plug (one blade horizontal), but often in commercial/industrial places you'll find 15a outlets on 20a circuits. _If_ used correctly this would be ok.

They're probably made for all the people renting floorsanders from Home Depot with no way to plug em in.

The scariest adaptors are the ones that dump or fake a ground - and 'cheaters' should be illegal

<comment><USER25> Wouldn't the -|| 20A design solve this? Why does the circular design here have to exist too?

<comment><USER26> The circular one is a twist-loc that prevents it from disconnecting accidentally.

The -|| 20A design is great in theory, but you only want to install a receptacle of that type if it is the only one on the circuit (and I mean only receptacle, so not even a single duplex) because what would be the point if you can plug in two devices that both require 20A. I've put these next to a window to power an air conditioner.

The problem with the twist-loc is that the 15A and 20A designs are not compatible. You can't plug a 15A device into a 20A outlet, but 15A twist-loc receptacles are rare. So it is not uncommon to put a 20A plug on a device that draws much less than 15A if say you don't want someone to unplug your router by accident.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I've manufactured such a monstrosity for temporary use, because the outlet on the wall used a 15A outlet (the typical plug you see in the US everywhere) but used a 20A breaker.There should have been an outlet on the wall that had the 20A outlet (one of the blades is horizontal instead of 2 vertical blades).

I used a length of 10/2 solid core wire to make the converter. I took delivery of a APC network-switched power bar that used the 30A twist-lock, and it included it's own pair of 20A breakers. I only plugged 10A (verified using a built in meter) of equipment into it till we could get a proper installation.

(I should add this device is not being used in eons and hasn't needed to be used since we've made sure to get the outlets setup right before we get the equipment!)

<comment><USER28> >the outlet on the wall used a 15A outlet (the typical plug you see in the US everywhere) but used a 20A breaker.There should have been an outlet on the wall that had the 20A outlet (one of the blades is horizontal instead of 2 vertical blades).

Then replace the outlet, don't cover up one problem with another.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> The connector bears the name WELL-SHIN, and a UL approval number E115330. Those match and check with the UL database.[1] Well-Shin is a company in Taiwan. Revenue about US$160 million. The part number, WS-111, is the connector only, not the cable assembly.[2]

Well-Shin makes cables, connectors, and all the small metal parts for people assembling cables. Their own line of cables is here.[1] They make some common cables, and this one isn't on their list. The connectors are.

But it's a moulded cable, at least at the plug end. The wires are connected to the metal parts and the housing is injection-molded around it. Only the connector manufacturer can do that. Question: is the twist-lock end also a molded connector? If it is, WELL-SHIN made this, or the whole thing is counterfeit. Either way, report it to UL. They track counterfeits.

If it's not a molded connector, someone cut the end off an extension cord and put that connector on.

[1] [https://productiq.ulprospector.com/en/profile/28839/elbz.e11...](https://productiq.ulprospector.com/en/profile/28839/elbz.e115330?term=Well%20Shin&page=1)

[2] [http://www.wellshin.com.tw/en/mod/product](http://www.wellshin.com.tw/en/mod/product)

<comment><USER5> > If it's not a molded connector, someone cut the end off an extension cord > and put that connector on.

That's almost certainly what was done. You can buy a loose L5-20R at the local hardware store. Typical PC power cables are plentiful and cheap, saving you the trouble of buying and assembling a 5-15P and a length of cable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Is this actually unsafe? In theory, won't the circuit breaker flip if the load ever becomes unsafe? ISTM, this might end up being inconvenient (Plug another Computer into the UPS, and the breaker flips), but it won't be dangerous, unless someone also "upgraded" the breaker.

<comment><USER31> _unless someone also "upgraded" the breaker_

That happens. 10 years ago or so there was a big explosion at the University of Texas, Austin. The Chemistry Department had a storage vessel for liquid nitrogen. Of course the cold liquid evaporates and creates pressure inside the container. Typically the internal pressure is held at 1.5 bar by means of an escape valve. The escape valve failed and someone replaced it with a solid brass plug. To prevent accidents if the escape valve fails there is also a burst disk that breaks at higher pressure but before the tank itself explodes. That mechanism worked as designed, it released pressure, so they replaced the emergency release valve with a brass plug as well. One nice night the burst pressure of the tank itself was exceeded, and the bottom launched itself through the floor. The top was stopped by a concrete beam, but it did break a few water pipes.

Here's the report from the Fire Marshal: [https://www.tdi.texas.gov/fire/documents/fmred022206.pdf](https://www.tdi.texas.gov/fire/documents/fmred022206.pdf)

There is no need to test if safety equipment works, because sometimes it does not.

<comment><USER32> The terrible thing is that this happened in a chemistry lab, where people should _really_ know better. Liquid nitrogen is dangerous in a surprisingly large number of ways: Cold burns when touched, explosions when sealed in a container. And if you're in an enclosed space with it, you've got to be careful not to let it fill the room with nitrogen gas and asphyxiate you.

<comment><USER31> _in a chemistry lab, where people should really know better_

Some places are accident factories, where people are encouraged to be team players and not rock the boat even in the face of clear and present danger. Universities can be problematic, when you do your PhD you really need your supervisor to give you a good recommendation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I might translate this to "If you don't understand what it's for, don't use it for what you think it might be for." Things like this exist, and they are exactly as absurd and dangerous as this, but they aren't for people who don't know what they are doing, they are for people who know exactly what they are doing. It is like a booby-trapped burial site where only the priest are supposed to be able to get in without getting crushed by boulders or impaled on spikes. Unfortunately most code doesn't come with a sign that says "never call this function unless you know exactly how many C level executives are going to be up all night when you do." Engineered safety controls tell you that some things should be obscure and hard to figure out so that people who don't know what the are doing don't accidentally destroy something. On the other hand this prevents knowledge transfer and effective communication, but if it is not obscure some idiot will set both the `--i-know-what-i-am-doing` and the `--i-accept-full-legal-resonsbility-for-the-consquences-of-running- with-this-enabled` flags AND do it in a shell script. This article is spot on, and I have come to think of people who have developed this mindset as having a kind of selective lack of curiosity, say, defensive disinterest -- they see a system that they don't understand, identify that it appears to be dangerous, leave it bloody well alone, and possibly leave a note telling others to do so as well. Those in the know hopefully appreciate when the defensively disinterested warn others off, and as in this thread, take the opportunity to educate about the potentially not completely insane use cases for such things.

</comment><comment><USER34> So I came across something like this once, UK 13A Plug -> 16A Ceeform Socket in an event and asked the guy (a professional with credentials) about it and he explained that it was actually fine from a safety standpoint: (This happened a while ago, might have understood it slightly wrong)

The 13A fuse was there to protect the thing from drawing more than 13A from the supply. After that it just doesn't matter - under a fault, nothing would be able to draw more than the lowest rated link. It's up to you to be aware that if you push it to 11 then things will fizzle out when the fuse goes, but no damage would be done. In this case it was just a couple of parcans so no issue.

The dangerous combination would in fact be the opposite, a 32A Ceeform plug to 16A Ceeform socket unfused. Then it would be possible under fault to actually pass >16A through a thing only rated up to 16A.

He said something along the lines of a 16/32A socket on the wall just means that the socket is capabale of handling 16A, not actually giving you that (or if it was even switched on) and in his line of work for anything needing more than 'a bit' of power they'd rather just tow their own generator in.

This made sense as in the UK, which is different from a lot of the world, 13A sockets are usually backed by a ring main that will happily give you 32A - hence a fuse is mandatory by law in all plugs to protect the plug and flex _leading from the plug to device_ and anything after that. Conversely, you can buy a cheap car inverter with a 13A socket perfectly legally, but try drawing that full 13A and see how far you get.

Also note I'm just talking about amperage here, the voltage (i.e. blue ceeform 230V) must be the same throughout.

<comment><USER35> So I discovered something disturbing about UK plugs - yes, the fuse is 13Amps, but it's not like your main circuit breaker which trips instantly - no, those fuses take a _long_ time to melt and break. I discovered this by accidentally drawing 20 amps through a single plug, because I was mistaken about the power draw of the two devices that were plugged into one extension cord. I only realized once I touched the cable and it was pretty hot(not melting yet, but definitely hotter than you want your cable to be) - I got a power draw meter and yep, I was drawing about 4.4kW(~20amps) through a plug equipped with a fully intact 13Amp fuse! I asked an electrician how can that be, and he said that yep, these fuses won't protect you from a higher draw that lasts a few minutes, the current needs to be either super high(like, not 20 but 50 amps) or prelonged enough to melt the fuse.

That has....changed my perception of how these fuses are meant to work.

<comment><USER36> A typical breaker won't blow instantly when you exceed the rated current either (unless you exceed it by a lot — like at least 5x). At less than double the rated current you could be waiting several minutes. So it's not just a UK fuse issue.

This isn't really an issue. "Hot enough to concern you" is undesirable but not really what they're worried about so much as "hot enough to combust".

And the alternative—if it were to blow instantly—is that your fuses would blow any time you turned something on with a high inrush current like a stand mixer or a vacuum cleaner.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I once worked with a very friendly can-do project manager who did something very similar.

He had a deployment project that was behind because the cabinet's PDU needed an L6-30 and the row only had an L6-20. So he went over to Grainger, bought a L6-20 male connector, an L6-30 female connector, some appropriate cable, and made an adapter.

If I recall correctly he'd calculated the maximum draw from the cabinet as right about 20A, so he was really bothered when the facilities manager absolutely refused to deploy with that adapter. (<cough>inrush?<cough>)

</comment><comment><USER38> It's not horribly uncommon to see 20A rated breakers connected to standard 3 prong sockets and people to have gear with these connectors.

Interesting sidenote, I can tell you at least one NFL and two college football stadiums require these cables to use any broadcasting or recording equipment on the sidelines. And countless venues for live music, usually ones wired before the millennium.

<comment><USER39> Unless the NEC has changed recently, it's legal in the US to use 20A breakers (with appropriate wiring e.g. 12ga or larger) to supply 15amp receptacles.

I don't know why the NEC allows this given that the practice is banned in Canada despite identical circuit breakers, wiring, receptacles, and electrical devices being used in both countries.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> _The 30-amp locking receptacle has become the norm at most U.S. and Caribbean marinas, so equipping your boat with a 30-amp inlet minimizes compatibility problems._

[https://www.fisheriessupply.com/marinco- marine-15-amp-125v-t...](https://www.fisheriessupply.com/marinco- marine-15-amp-125v-twist-lock-male-plug)

</comment><comment><USER41> I remember seeing USB A to A cables. Actually, I just found one on Amazon. The only reason I know for these to exist is some external HDD enclosures where the designer somehow understood USB well enough to make a controller board, but not well enough to know it should have been a B connector.

<comment><USER42> I had a Wacom tablet that comes with one of these. The tablet's only input is USB Type C that requires the other side to support the Displayport alternate mode... and computers didn't really have that kind of port when Wacom released it. So it same with a box that has a USB type A port, a mini Displayport, and a USB Type C port. You can then use an A-A cable to plug into your computer (along with the Displayport for video), and then connect via Type C to the actual tablet. In theory, you can also connect the box to the tablet via Type C, and it becomes an extra USB port.

It is janky and every time I go through my cables I say to myself "why on Earth does this abomination exist", but I suppose they had a good reason. Now that graphics cards have Type C ports for VR (apparently), it's not a problem. But it was back when they first came out. They ended up having to use a stupid special cable because they made their device too nice (if you did have a Type C port with video out on your computer, you could still use the converter that you paid for).

I suppose there is some precedent for USB devices that can switch over to being the host. I remember buying a "USB on the go" adaptor and plugging a mouse into my Nexus back in the day. It worked! A cursor appeared and you could move it around.

(Unfortunately, I hated that tablet. My Surface Pro was much better, and it wasn't even designed for drawing. I gave both devices away and now just use my iPad, which still isn't as good as the Surface Pro 4.)

<comment><USER43> > Now that graphics cards have Type C ports for VR (apparently)

Had. The VirtualLink standard (for which the ports were supposed to be used), was never wildly adopted and is pretty much dead. AMD never introduced Type C ports and Nvidia removed them from their newer graphics cards as well.

Sadly this also means there's practically no direct support for the DisplayPort alternate mode on Desktops anymore, assuming you want a dedicated GPU.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> This looks like a power cord that would be used for a welder that can run on 120 or 240v usually at about half the capacity when at 1/2 the voltage

Edit: nevermind since it was pointed out that this is only a 120v appliance end

</comment><comment><USER45> Relying on a breaker to save the day if a device draws too much current from an adapter such as this is a terrible idea.

My issues with the adapter:

\- The adapter is allowing higher current devices to connect to an outlet design that only started showing up in the 1960s; connected to "god knows what."

Some people use two-to-three prong grounding adapters. (NEMA 1-15 to 5-15.)

Some NEMA 5-15 outlets are wired with bootleg grounds.

My Grandmothers' old house, built in 1837, was upgraded with "knob-and-tube" wiring sometime in the 1910s and had NEMA 1-15 plugs. There's a certain amount of heat a knob and tube wiring install is designed to allow due to an over current; but this was contingent upon being installed properly, and never modified. The issue today (and in the 1950s) is that many DIYers spliced their safety into a black hole of junction boxes.

Even If it's a shiny new Siemens Load Center, none of that matters if it connects to wire made during the Ottoman Empire, and illegally spliced into the old breaker panel during the 1970s.

\- The breaker box, fuse box, load center.... Well, what is it? It is important to know who made it, and if it was done correctly.

Fuses take time to blow. There could be 10 other things on that branch and it could blow quickly. It's the big unknown. Did the last occupant get tired of replacing blown 15A fuses because they couldn't use two kitchen appliances at once, and drop in a 30A?

Same goes with actual circuit breakers. Square D will gladly sell me a single 30A breaker that fits into the spot where I pulled a 15A breaker from.

I bet Federal Pacific Electric would too if they were still in business selling StabLok breakers that cheated their way through the UL tests.... in which their panels are installed commonly throughout the Bay Area. Relying on a Federal Pacific, Zinsco, Wadsworth panel to trip with the _correct breaker_ is too much a liability for most home insurance companies.

If one prefers to rely on circuit breakers, I'd really suggest that they reconsider. Especially during Fire Season here in the Bay Area.

Rachel By The Bay knows what she doesn't know about the branch circuits in her home. She's 100% in the right here, as it pertains to her unique situation. Exercise an abundance of caution and hire an electrician!

</comment><comment><USER46> What do you do when you see this lying around?

[http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/img/etherkiller.jpg](http://www.fiftythree.org/etherkiller/img/etherkiller.jpg)

<comment><USER47> Thinking of _Powerline_ or PoE!

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I don't know what you guys are bellyaching about...

[http://www.madamletmetellyouonething.com/wires-jammed- into-t...](http://www.madamletmetellyouonething.com/wires-jammed-into-the- socket/)

</comment><comment><USER49> I'd say such things _should_ exist, sometimes, because the job needs to be done. They should be obvious ugly hacks covered in tape and embarrassing by their existence, to help prompt someone to find a the proper solution.

Hands up whover made an RJ12 fit an MMJ when wiring up a vt terminal serial port

<comment><USER50> It sounds like the job that needs to be done is ensuring you've adequately planned ahead. With very few exceptions, this is the result of someone trying not to pay what the job costs and just faking it.

Hands up whoever insists on doing site surveys so they can do quality work they're proud to put their name on.

<comment><USER49> "the show can't go on because the site survey was wrong" won't fly. That's when you bust out the wirecutters and electrical tape. Preperation is great, wonderful, etc, etc; and _never complete_. Shit happens, be prepared to deal with it.

Many disagree with me, but im a happy lunatic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> Like docker

</comment><comment><USER3> This seems to be written by someone that doesn't understand electrical wiring. I have (and sometimes use) adapter cables like these (5-15P to L5-20R).

As other people have pointed out, you can draw a lot more than 15 amps through a 15-amp cable by plugging a simple Y connector into the end. That's why 15-amp circuits have 15-amp breakers in the panel. There are a variety of devices that _could_ draw 20 amps (and thus have 20 amp NEMA connectors) but don't necessarily. If everything is wired properly, the worst that happens is you pop a breaker.

I would be more concerned about the gender-opposite of the connector shown (ie, L5-20Plug to 5-15Receptacle). That would allow you to plug a 15-amp rated cable into a circuit which is defended by a 20amp breaker - now the cable is the weakest link.

TL;DR: She has it backwards.

<comment><USER52> > I would be more concerned about the gender-opposite of the connector shown > (ie, L5-20Plug to 5-15Receptacle). That would allow you to plug a 15-amp > rated cable into a circuit which is defended by a 20amp breaker - now the > cable is the weakest link.

Huh? Isn't plugging 15-amp appliances (with cables only rated for that) into 20-amp circuits totally normal? I have a few NEMA 5-20 receptacles in my home; in fact I think the latest code requires that kitchens have at least two of them. They accept NEMA 5-15 plugs, and I use them in that fashion without a second thought. You probably do, too.

My understanding is that the circuit breaker protects the wiring in your wall from excessive current. If your appliance may draw more current than its cable can handle, shouldn't it have its own fuse/breaker?

The adapter cable that Rachel mentions allows plugging a 20-amp appliance into a circuit that may actually have a 20-amp breaker, with this plug between that's only rated for 15 amps and doesn't have a built-in fuse/breaker. (I wonder if the cable is at the proper gauge for 20 amps or not.) That doesn't sound proper to me...

<comment><USER3> The problem is when you plug one of these (as someone already linked) into the 20 amp socket:

[https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-12-ft-2-Wire-16-Gauge- Polariz...](https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-12-ft-2-Wire-16-Gauge-Polarized- Indoor-Extension-Cord-White-51954/203806535)

Everyone in the US has a bunch of these. 16ga is good for 13 amps. Even if everything is working properly, two 10-amp devices will draw 20 amps and the cable will melt before the breaker pops. If everything is not working properly, and there is a short-circuit, the cable will still probably melt before the breaker pops.

This is why the OP gets it exactly backwards - she is looking at the big cable/connector and thinking "that's dangerous!" No, danger comes from the _weakest_ link in the system, not the strongest. That weakest link must be a fuse or breaker.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> This is a pretty ignorant and immature post.

For example, "All I know is, if that was my building and they were my tenant, I'd probably sic the fire marshal on them." Well, you clearly don't know very much, and this kind of histrionic commentary isn't useful to anyone.

On the other hand reading the comments I'm pleased to see people chiming in who do know the purpose and legitimate use cases of this little adapter. Personally I had no idea so I'm fascinated to learn, and hopefully one day the knowledge will come in useful. So even though the post has irked me I'm glad to have read it just because of the comments.</comment>


SpiderOak's zero-knowledge chat and collaboration platform released for iOS - <AUTHOR> https://spideroak.com/solutions/semaphor/tour-mobile <comment><USER2> Hey there, I'm the design lead for SpiderOak. Semaphor is still in early beta, and we have lots of features planned. We're working on integrations, bots, team and user visibility settings and some early web of trust over the next few months. I'm curious as to thoughts about what works, and what doesn't, and what you want the most in a team collaboration app.

Thanks HN!

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah yep, friend of friend of Cade's here. Good work so far, I've been submitting bug reports all day - not because it's overly buggy but just because that's what I do :) good luck with the rollout. One question: where is the source code for the desktop and iOS apps available?

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> OK after a day of testing out the desktop app (keep in mind that it is a BETA and not production):

\- It uses between 500MB-1GB of RAM.

\- It's as laggy as any other javascript webframe app.

\- The uploads to it are VERY slow.

\- The network hops / routes are poor. (from Australia at least)

\- No user mentions.

\- Can't find the source code anywhere.

\- With regards to UX it's nearly impossible to do / find anything.

\- We found two people that simply could login on their mobile or desktops.

\- No integration with any 3rd party services.

\- No self-hosting option.

\- The whole thing feels like a javascript heavy web app in the frame.

\- The iOS app is a lot better than the desktop app (I'm assuming because it's native).

Needless to say I'm about to uninstall it and give it a go in another 6-12 months if the source is released and it's not running out of a javascript webframe.

I must say the iOS app is not bad though - that definitely deserves credit.</comment>


Labour HQ used Facebook ads to deceive Jeremy Corbyn during election campaign - <AUTHOR> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-hq-used-facebook-ads-to-deceive-jeremy-corbyn-during-election-campaign-grlx75c27 <comment><USER2> Dupe: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17531608](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17531608)

</comment><comment><USER3> For our American friends, this is like finding that the Democrats screwed over Bernie Sanders during the election campaign. Sounds familiar?

There's a difference, which is that here Corbyn actually became the Labour party leader. However despite that he's _still_ portrayed as an outsider by the establishment and the media.

<comment><USER4> The two situations really aren't that similar at all. You don't have to make everything into an opportunity to bring up the 2016 election all over again.

<comment><USER5> You're right, the difference was that Labour was unable to prevent Corbyn from becoming the party leader, while the DNC was already decided on anointing Hillary regardless of her actual popularity or electability and was able to prevent all opposition.

<comment><USER4> Sigh. No. Just a few differences:

\- Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party. Neither Hillary nor Bernie have that position in the Democratic party, because it doesn't exist. A party's presidential candidate is not the same as their party leader. And the method by which each is elected is radically different.

\- Corbyn was already leader when these events happened. This is the equivalent of Bernie winning the primary (which as mentioned above is already a poor analogy) and then being lied to about what the DNC was doing in outreach for the presidential election. So, not something that mirrors reality at all.

\- Bernie Sanders was not a member of the Democratic party before seeking to become it's presidential candidate. Corbyn has been a member of the Labour party for decades.

\- Corbyn represents the resurgence of a relatively _old_ wing of the Labour party, not the beginning of a new movement like Sanders.

Basically every part of this dynamic is different. They're both very interesting to study in their own right, and trying to conflate the two to make a political point does nothing justice.

<comment><USER5> In both cases, the party establishment tried to prevent a candidate on the left from gaining power through deceitful means. They tried to rig things against Bernie and Sanders.

That's the comparison being drawn here. Does that make sense?

(Yes, the details are different as the mechanics of these party systems are very different.)

<comment><USER4> To the extent that the comparison is so absurdly simplistic that it doesn't do justice to either of the situations it's trying to describe, sure, it makes sense.

Staff within the Labour Party running ads to deceive their party leader into believing they were running a more progressive message than they actually were is literally nothing like anything that happened to Bernie Sanders in 2016.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Sounds like, in effect, they also deceived the public _about_ Corbyn. Not to say that it isn't pretty well understood what sort of fellow he is...</comment>


Call Of Duty Invades The Mac App Store at $50 - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2011/01/13/call-of-duty-mac-app-store/ <comment><USER2> I'm not sure how telling a 3 year old game hitting the Mac App Store at near- launch prices will be.

<comment><USER3> Hmm. I had assumed that it was the latest Call of Duty: Black Ops juggernaut. You're right - trying to sell Modern Warfare at this price is silly. This has the fishy smell of an experiment designed to fail...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > _"Apple wasted little time in featuring it in a main store banner today._ "

I don't know which is worse. Apple featuring a 2+ year old game at the app store, or TechCrunch writing an article about it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Some apps are appearing in the mac app store at what look like bargain prices (Aperture for $80, but due for an upgrade soon). But Call of Duty, which is years old and available online for like $30, went up yesterday at $49.99.

<comment><USER5> Why should Aperture be due for an update soon? It was only updated a year ago and has had a much longer release cycle than that in the past.

<comment><AUTHOR> Aperture 2.0 came out in Feb 2009. Aperture 3.0 came out in Feb 2010. But I am basically speculating that Apple is following a very common software pricing strategy of significant cuts ahead of a major update...

<comment><USER6> I think it'll be interesting to see what Apple does regarding upgrades. Personally, my guess would be on them providing Aperture 4, next version of iWork, &c, without needing a repurchase to whoever purchased it on the App Store.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The Mac App store really has no chance against Steam when it comes to games. It is a better platform and not tied to a single operating system. Never-mind their approval process not being so finicky.

<comment><USER8> But who's got more advertising and marketing power? Apple deserves a lot of credit for its high quality products, but people seem to forget they also sell a lot because they sell hard.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Given the comparatively small number of games for the Mac pricing situations like this have existed for some time (visit your local Mac Store to check out the exciting line of 5+ year old games for sale at full price).

The other way to interpret this is that the $50 price isn't the "full price" of the game so much as it is the same discounted price as elsewhere plus the 30% EA would otherwise lose to Apple.

<comment><USER6> As far as the second, I'd wager that Valve's cut on Steam is not significantly <30%, even for publishers the size of Activision.

<comment><USER10> I recall the split between publisher or developer and Valve on steam is determined per game, but for many indie games it hovers around 40% to Valve. For larger publishers and franchise games, this starts to drop considerably.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> So if MW1 is available for Mac, why isn't it available on Steam? MW1 for Windows is listed at $30, perhaps EA won't sell the Mac version at that price and Steam doesn't want to endorse a precedent of multiple price points for different platforms?

I try not to presume ill-will, but there does seem to be something amiss here.

<comment><USER12> The Call of Duty series is published by Activision, not EA.

<comment><USER11> woops - good call. A few years ago, I think I just started assuming everything was published by EA by default.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I still dont get what drives people to pay more for a digital download than an actual boxed version of the game. I also dont get why publishers dont try to reach a bigger audience with lower prices instead, which should roughly equal to the same amount of revenue.

<comment><USER14> > I still dont get what drives people to pay more for a digital download than > an actual boxed version of the game.

Convenience. People pay for convenience all the time. That's why Starbucks can charge $2.50 for a medium coffee that you could make at home for $0.10. Or why the corner store milk is $2 more than the grocery store milk.

Driving to a store takes up to an hour out of your day. You buy the game, accumulating more garbage and shit that you don't need. Then you have to keep it safe and not scratch the disc. Care must be taken.

A digital download is _incredibly_ more convenient. You don't have to leave your home, it's faster, safer, easier, and even better, you don't have to take care of more garbage or carefully handle optical discs.

<comment><USER13> You still pay more for less. Id argue that for a game you would want a good buying experience, and original box and stuff like that. That why people pay more fore Gold Editions etc. But paying more for just a download, i dont know...

Its not that its something you badly need like something to drink, its on the market for 3 years after all.

<comment><USER5> I get access to the game immediately, that's pretty sweet. I can absolutely see paying more for a digital download than some box with a load of crap in it. Who wants to still use CDs or DVDs?

From my perspective, I'm paying more for more.

This doesn't really apply to this particular game which is shamelessly overpriced and old but it applies to other games.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Ridiculous on its face, but probably just an effort to feel out the top-end of the market (and ignore all the great market data Valve has been collecting over the years).

</comment><comment><USER16> _The game is also massive in size, at over 6 gigabytes, so it's going to take a while to download even on a fast connection._

That's pretty small these days.</comment>


Ask HN: Database migration on production without downtime - <AUTHOR> How do you handle database migration on production servers without downtime?
We are currently struggling to find the right strategy to handle migrations of our database schemas without downtime. We are running a NodeJS application with a MongoDB on Kubernetes and can have thus pods of different versions running concurrently when deploying a new version (we currently perform rolling updates).
Some options we have been considering:
1. Using an evolutionary database design (only adding fields to the schema) and having the newer version write both the old and new. 2. Extracting the DB repository to an external versionable service that reads/write from the DB and returns a different schema version depending on what application version requests an entity.
Further suggestions are greatly appreciated! <comment><USER2> Some general points (I'll use MySQL 5.7 as an example):

\- all major databases, including MySQL, have an equivalent to ALTER ONLINE now. However, not all operations are covered, and you need to develop pre- tested procedures for small and large tables. If you can't predict how long an ALTER will take, then you're not prepared enough. (Typically under 400k narrow rows on SSD you don't even need ALTER ONLINE at ebb time.)

[https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/innodb-online-ddl- op...](https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/innodb-online-ddl- operations.html)

\- there's lots of trigger-based tools, like pt-online-schema-change

[https://www.percona.com/doc/percona-toolkit/3.0/pt-online- sc...](https://www.percona.com/doc/percona-toolkit/3.0/pt-online-schema- change.html)

\- using local SSD helps a lot. using EBS will be ugly for large tables. active master/passive master flipping might be helpful for hard disks.

\- for large tables, you still want to make changes at ebb time. In the US, that's generally around 6 or 7 pm PST.

\- experienced DBAs keep things simple and understandable. So the "evolutionary database design" and "failing forward" are recommended.

\- data retention policies (say 18 months) help with mgmt.

\- using tools like Ruby migrations is a special thing, so you need to look under the hood there.

Pro Tip: Phrases like "Extracting the DB repository to an external versionable service" give DBAs the willies. Sounds like a dangerous path to me.

Source: DBA.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you very much for the advice, it is really useful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm not familiar with MongoDB to know if it has peculiar behavior so my experience is with traditional RDBMS.

You could write the backend/middleware and front-end to handle both situations of if a column/data field is present vs. not. Get that code out there and then deploy your DB changes separate. Once all is working fine, remove the "shim" code that handled if a column was present/not. Most MVC web frameworks have ways to mask the table/column names if needed. It may feel "icky" but recognize it is short term and since you can do rolling updates of your pods, you should be able to deploy software only changes nearly anytime, all the time without interruption.

For the DB, if the tables are large then in RDBMS sometimes the DB will lock the table for update which can cause issues. A technique we use is to copy the table, do the migration of say adding a column, apply updates that happened to original table to the copy and then rename the tables so your new migrated table becomes the actual table and original is preserved in case. The rename is usually fast and shouldn't lock out transactions.

<comment><AUTHOR> We already perform migrations separately but we were trying to avoid needing to be backwards-compatible. However, it looks like this is the best approach. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Depends on the operation. For most operations there are backwards compatible options that generally result in a 2-step process.

Soundcloud (I don't work there) developed something in Ruby for online database migrations that copies the table and uses triggers to handle everything. Note that this only works for MySQL. For PostgreSQL or others, the best option is taking a backwards compatible approach.

[https://github.com/soundcloud/lhm](https://github.com/soundcloud/lhm)

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess backwards-compatibility in the app is probably the way to go. Thank you for your comment!

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I made a lot of migrations with MongoDB without downtime with dbs up to 200-300Gb. Most easy way is to support this on your backend side, and then gradually switch data. It is easy to do when you can move your date item-by- item, if it possible. Feel free to PM me!

</comment><comment><USER6> Check out [https://github.com/github/gh-ost](https://github.com/github/gh-ost)

<comment><AUTHOR> This and the pt-online-schema-change tools look promising but not really applicable to NoSQL :(</comment></comment>


Forget WiFi, It's LiFi: Internet Through Lightbulbs - Technology - GOOD - <AUTHOR> http://www.good.is/post/forget-wifi-it-s-lifi-internet-through-lightbulbs/ <comment><USER2> This is neat, but not new; check out Talking Lights, for example (<http://www.talking-lights.com/>) --- they were an MIT professor's startup and went out of business a few years ago.

There are also some cool indoor location-finding applications, from what I recall; if each fixture emits a unique ID and you know how they are laid out, you can figure out where in the facility you are fairly easily.</comment>


Hugo vs. Jekyll: Comparing the leading static website generators - <AUTHOR> https://opensource.com/article/17/5/hugo-vs-jekyll?sc_cid=70160000000xYJ4AAM <comment><USER2> I'm honestly a bit disappointed by the current state of static site generators.

They all seem to require all files be re-generated for every build, and none seem to offer "smart" solutions to this, like the option to use ESI, SSI, etc.

Things like language support seem to be implemented with absolutely zero concept of content negotiation.

Do people find these issues? If so what do you do? Ignore, work around it, or find something else (if so, what?)</comment>


'Staying longer at home' was key to stone age technology change 60k years ago - <AUTHOR> https://phys.org/news/2017-10-longer-home-key-stone-age.html <comment><USER2> Wait, so the articles says that that around 60k years ago, at this particular site, people started staying put longer and the artifacts became _less_ sophisticated.

From the headline I thought this was going to shed light on the so-called "great-leap forward" which is supposed to be about artifacts becoming more sophisticated (or perhaps just more artistic) at very roughly the same time period in different parts of the world.

<comment><USER3> Less sophisticated but faster production was what I read:

> The beautiful Howiesons Poort industry with its long, thin blades is > replaced at 58,000 years ago by a simple technology that could be rapidly > produced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> And there was a technology boom during the agricultural revolution, when people where able to become completely sedentary. And art/craft booms occurred when kingdoms were formed and could produce excess food, allowing excess labour to focus on things other than agricultural production.

</comment><comment><USER3> Makes me wonder what research they'll be doing about us in 58,000 years.

<comment><USER5> I suspect something like:

> It is unknown what the vast majority of humans did during this period.

(because all of our facebooks, twitters, hn comments, softwares, etc are not physically tangible artifacts and will [hopefully] be lost in time)

<comment><USER6> Every time I buy a new computer I find the old hard disk fits in its entirety on the new one, leaving me with plenty of space to spare. I think I have four or five generations nested into the current one.

I suspect storage will remain cheap enough most of these artifacts will survive, but it's going to be very difficult for future researchers to get a good idea of what 21st century life was like because the crap to content ratio is so high. Sorting through all those kitten videos and posts hardly anyone reads _today_ will probably be more expensive and time consuming than it's worth.

<comment><USER7> Eventually you'll lose your drive, and therefore data if you don't backup.

In 58,000 years none of the data would be intact if not through pretty extreme efforts to preserve it.

I guess maybe we'll find ways to encode data onto physical media, but I don't think my facebook (or HN) posts are going to make the cut.

<comment><USER8> >> _" Eventually you'll lose your drive, and therefore data if you don't backup."_

True, but someone will come up with a "databank" of sorts. Who knows, we might backup on DNA or space, as in cosmos.

Is what we type right now escaping in space like TV transmissions? Any physics major here?

<comment><USER9> Some of it goes into space (if it's transmitted the right way), but most will be drowned in noise. None of that matters though, since you can't get in front of the outgoing signal to receive it at a future date. It would have to be reflected, which would also introduce a large amount of noise.

<comment><USER8> Thanks makes sense. We see what is coming to us, and maybe nothing will be reflected considering expansion and all.

BUT it is out there and an advanced civilization might figure it out (not that they might need it but curiosity)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Since I'm working from home this week, perhaps I, too, will make some significant technological advances!

<comment> surrey-fringe Please don't post joke comments on HN.

<comment><USER11> Given that your comment history is primarily an anthology of throwaway one- liners, I'd go easy on casting those stones.

<comment> surrey-fringe Did you spend time thinking about me? I like that.

<comment><USER12> >Please don't post joke comments on HN.

\- surrey-fringe, 2017

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This is why I'm always telling my boss I should be allowed to work from home more.

<comment><USER14> It's probably your tendency to produce flint knapped tools rather than code though, or your constant fire starting. "Damn it Thag! HR on back! You code, computer, no flint! No fire!"

<comment><USER15> Just watch, Thag creates an obsidian package manager that anyone can upload their arrowheads to - this will truly disrupt the neolithic hunter ecosystem and break the walled gardens of the gatherers.

<comment><USER16> Dear Sir/Madam, we at Onk NeoL Patent Tech take much pride in our inventions and patents. We recently came across one of your products, BLUNT ARROWHEAD, which we think violates our patent #5, registered with Neolithic Patent Office. Please send one goat to license our patent, else we will send our grizzly bear. Best Regards, Onk - CEO Onk NeoL Patent Tech.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What is the status of VR on Linux? - <AUTHOR> I'm a programmer with a lot of experience with GL. I'm mostly working with data visualization in general, but I wrote several non-toy 3D engines in the past.
I've been rather oblivious with VR as of date, even though I toyed with 3d glasses on an SGI Octane decades ago. After a couple of experiences with the Oculus though, I'd love to start hacking on VR technology.
As my development platform for the last 10+ years as been exclusively Linux, and again almost exclusively targeting high-end NVidia cards, I have no interest in switching OS whatsoever.
What is the status of VR on linux? It seems that most headsets are platform and vendor-locked. Why is this the case? Are some devices more hackable than others? <comment><USER2> If you want to be part of the "platform", then it's not ready yet. Valve demoed SteamVR working on Linux a couple of months ago at Steam Dev Days, but it's not released yet. Given Valve Time, it could be anywhere from weeks to a year from now.

It's possible to write your own OpenVR driver with whatever headset, but it would be quite an undertaking.

If you're just messing around on your own, OSVR is n standalone open source initiative (which also has SteamVR support) that is largely cross-platform but I haven't played with it.

Finally, last month Khronos Group announced [1] that they're going to be developing a joint VR standard with all the big players which should also advance VR towards being more cross-platform.

tl;dr: Unless you're building just for yourself, I'd wait or bite the bullet and install Windows for the duration. (I did the latter, sigh.)

[1] [https://www.khronos.org/news/press/khronos-announces-vr- stan...](https://www.khronos.org/news/press/khronos-announces-vr-standards- initiative)

</comment><comment><USER3> In theory, [http://www.osvr.org/hdk2.html](http://www.osvr.org/hdk2.html) is exactly what you are looking for. In practice... well, it's open-source and the software team would appreciate contributions.

</comment><comment><USER4> You might be interesting in following along with this: [https://github.com/cnlohr/libsurvive](https://github.com/cnlohr/libsurvive)

Hacker extraordinaire Charles Lohr is reverse engineering the Vive protocols and has made good headway so far. It also seems that Valve has been giving him the odd hint along the way.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm with you! This is one of the last few articles related to 'vr on linux' that I read before the Holidays: [http://www.roadtovr.com/steamvr-to-get- linux-and-mac-osx-sup...](http://www.roadtovr.com/steamvr-to-get-linux-and- mac-osx-support-in-a-few-months/)

AFAIK both Unity and Unreal Engines have 'experimental' linux builds available. I started the year hardware-strapped, but hopefully sometime in 2017 I'll start dabbling with these linux alternatives.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER6> You might want to look at this lightning talk from 33c3:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5uqQL- dKBU&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5uqQL- dKBU&feature=youtu.be&list=PLOcrXzpA0W82Z49Pj0v-cehuvA9qCDuX9&t=5120)

We really need to standardize VR drivers with a hardware class that needs to support, in a standard fashion, x types of standard i/o.

</comment><comment><USER7> The various VR platform vendors have only recently come together on a universal standard, which will ideally be implemented on both Windows and Linux: [https://www.khronos.org/vr](https://www.khronos.org/vr)

<comment><USER8> Serious question, what's the incentive for the current vendors to do this? I feel that given how nascent the space is, everyone is rushing to try to be the next iPod/iTunes store combo, and you don't get that by sharing.

<comment><USER7> If there were only a single major vendor, then they would have an effective monopoly which would take years to catch up to, such as iPhones/Android. Instead, we had both Vive and Oculus release at around the same time, and both have seen reasonable success. Prospective buyers worry that they'll get locked into one ecosystem, hoping that the decent games on other platforms get ported over eventually. That indecision probably also stops a large number of prospective buyers from purchasing _either_ platform, because they would rather play it safe than to spend $800 on backing the wrong horse. I know a guy that got burned buying an HD-DVD player, it sucks.

With a shared standard, games developers can build to a common target, and consumers can buy hardware based on actual hardware differentiators. Oculus will be able to say "buy our headset, it has better feature X _and_ it supports all the Vive/GearVR/Cardboard games!" Customers will feel more comfortable just picking a horse, knowing that even if it doesn't win it'll at least finish the race.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> VR makes an excellent demo, but has anybody found themselves playing VR games regularly? For me, it seems a little like the 3D situation a few years ago. I bought a TV, got the glasses, and was able to play some PS3 games in 3D. It was a lot of fun... for an afternoon.

<comment><USER10> The 3D TV comparison is completely tired at this point. VR is a new form of HCI, not a questionably improved display technology. Besides that point, if you're only looking at VR as "games" you're missing the boat entirely.

<comment><USER9> > The 3D TV comparison is completely tired at this point

Why do you say that? I think the 3D TV comparison is fairly accurate. If VR (or AR) requires anything more bulky than regular eye glasses, I can't see it becoming a huge success. Part of why I think VR makes a neat demo only is because the current crop of VR headsets get uncomfortable very quickly.

> VR is a new form of HCI

New? I first tried VR 25 years ago and I know it's older than that.

> if you're only looking at VR as "games" you're missing the boat entirely

So if gaming isn't the primary user and driver of VR hardware and software, what is? What industry is putting the most investment into VR right now? From the current generation, I really have only looked at consumer setups like Vive, Playstation, and Oculus. I haven't tried Microsoft's product or Magic Leap so maybe they would change my mind?

<comment><USER11> > So if gaming isn't the primary user and driver of VR hardware and software, > what is?

Perhaps pornography? VR could offer a completely novel set of experiences

<comment><USER10> The porn industry has already dumped an insane amount of money into VR and is presumably seeing quite a return, since the major players have only accelerated their pace of output. Just like with other technologies, porn companies have already driven the consumer innovations streaming VR video from the internet, capturing 3D 180 footage, and defining best practices for immersive content. I'm sure "novel" experiences are on their way eventually, but right now the money's being made just making 3D180 videos for mobile VR platforms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The open-source Vrui VR toolkit[1] has some level of support for the Vive and Rift[2].

[1] [http://idav.ucdavis.edu/~okreylos/ResDev/Vrui/](http://idav.ucdavis.edu/~okreylos/ResDev/Vrui/)

[2] [http://doc-ok.org/?p=1508](http://doc-ok.org/?p=1508)

</comment><comment><USER13> If you want to do VR dev on linux I think Web VR is probably your best bet right now.

</comment><comment><USER14> I believe Openvr does work on Linux, with some modifications. Valve is actively developing it.

</comment><comment><USER15> > What is the status of VR on linux?

It doesn't work, at all. Sorry.

<comment><USER16> Even OSVR?</comment></comment>


Lodash playground - <AUTHOR> http://blog.klipse.tech/javascript/2017/09/28/lodash-playground.html <comment><AUTHOR> Lodash is a modern JavaScript utility library delivering modularity, performance & extras.

You have probably used Lodash in one of your projects.

Wouldn't it be great if every javascript developer could experiment Lodash in herB browser without needing to install anything or to create a JsFiddle?

Today, this dream comes true. In this blog post, you can play with Lodash functions. Experiment the edge cases of the API. Compose a short gist and check if it works as expected….</comment>


Using Slack without going insane - <AUTHOR> https://blog.notmyhostna.me/use-slack-without-going-insane/ <comment><USER2> The solution is to just stop checking Slack all the time. People get used to not having a response in minutes if you train them for it.

I think it's more that people are worrying about what others think about them not responding. How about growing a pair? It will solve your problems.</comment>


The Immaturity of CMM - <AUTHOR> http://www.umsl.edu/~sauterv/analysis/cmm.htm

<comment><USER2> I focused mostly on the "Feet of clay: The CMM's fundamental misunderstanding of level 1 Organizations" section and I find a lot to disagree with.

The biggest issue, which I don't sense the author gets, is "repeatability". Level One companies are entirely dependent on "heroes" (or cowboys, take your pick :-) and their ability to follow their first success is not particularly predictable, except that it's likely to be poor. Look at Lotus, who's first product (the 1-2-3 spreadsheet etc.) was written by a team of 7 or so assembly language wizards for the first IBM-PC and that lost it's ability to develop software after that (1-2-3's mid-life kicker that saved the company (for a while) was an unauthorized project written by two programmer who left the company before the need for it was acknowledged).

I think we realize this less now because we're so much more leveraged and "powerful" today; a small team can do so much more and continue to do that if the company avoids Teamicide ([http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive- Projects-Teams-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects- Teams-Second/dp/0932633439/) , _READ IT!!!_ ) and doesn't have to grow its team (much).

Microsoft, on the other hand, by the 1994 date of this essay was most certainly _not_ a Level One company. I've long said the secret to their success in the period that includes that year was that they retained the ability to write software that basically worked (compare this to all their Windows Office competitors who lost in the transition to Windows 3.x: with the exception of WordPerfect, the others couldn't get past the "crashes too often" stage, and WordPerfect's release was a sad joke. Sure, it didn't crash, but it also would frequently move all your figures and tables to the bottom of your document.)

It's No Accident that Microsoft was run during that period by a seriously good hacker (anyone who can successfully rewrite an assembly BASIC interpreter (without benefit of a computer) during a transcontinental flight earns my respect.)

I too prefer Gerald Wienberg's approach to this, and CMM can obviously be fetishized and at best promises little more than "we can continue write mediocre software", but there's something there that's worthwhile that it's trying to achieve.

</comment><comment><USER3> That might be true, but this is funnier ....

      CIMM  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Immaturity_Model</comment>


GNU Guile 3.0.0 - <AUTHOR> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2020-01/msg00003.html <comment><USER2> A thread for this already exists, from four hours ago, and is currently on the front page: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22065942](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22065942)

<comment><USER3> I've entered an infinite loop clicking that link.

Luckily scheme does tail call optimization and I didn't crash, just looped forever.

<comment><USER4> Hah! Best Scheme joke of the day. :)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do I increase traffic to my site? - <AUTHOR>

Hi,
I built my first website (http://vipreads.com) which basically lists the books of famous celebrities. I launched it 10 days ago and have since updated it with about 20-25 celebs. On some good days I have had 2000 page views a day but most of that traffic has been due to posting in hacker news or in an isolated case reddit. Most of the other days its been a virtual ghost town with about 150-200 page views. I have tried promoting it over facebook, twitter but i guess havent been able to drive traffic through those sources. I am slightly concerned that most of my traffic is driven from these hn/reddit. Ideally I would want it to come from my twitter feed, fb page or rss subscription. I would like to know if you have any ideas or is there anything obvious which i have been missing.<p>Thanks in advance for the help. <comment><USER2> Disclaimer: I never launched a really successful site (but I am still trying ;) ). This is just a guess.

Overnight success takes years of preparation ([http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/01/overnight- success-i...](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/01/overnight-success-it- takes-years.html)), so ten days is just a start. I would suggest the following:

      Try to get a lot of feedback from real users
      Keep improving the site over the course of some months
      Blog about it
      Keep doing everything you do now (HN, reddit, twitter, facebook, ...)
      Read Seth Godin's blog (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/)
      Read everything Kathy Sierra ever posted (http://headrush.typepad.com/)

When you become successful please tell me what worked, so I can copy your success ;) I want to close with a shameless self promotion: I wrote about something similar in my blog some weeks ago: "I wish I had invented Twitter" - <http://davidtanzer.net/node/82>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the advice. I checked out your blog and your new site. Good luck.

</comment></comment><comment> g-garron The best source of traffic are Search Engines, and that will take some time. You need incoming links to your site, which I'm sure you are getting from all HNers and Redditors bloggers that visited you. You also need to learn about SEO and keywords, and write respecting that. Take care of meta descriptions, and meta tags. Write good titles, and urls for every post.

But, after all, it is a matter of giving good content, and patience, just wait a little and the organic traffic will start to arrive.

Just my two cents, and please consider that I'm not a SEO expert.

</comment><comment><USER3> It appears like you haven't got very many incoming links to your site yet. Naturally I'm not an expert on optimizing your site, but I would guess that organic search engine traffic should be a major source for you.

For example, I tried googling "books barack obama has read", and you site didn't show up in the first few pages. If I were you, I'd be more concerned about the search engine ranking than optimizing a facebook fan page.

In short: find out ways to get relevant links pointing to your site.

<comment><AUTHOR> It depends. If you google "books linus torvals reads" I am the second result. Bill gates favorite books , I am in the first page. But thanks I will work on this.

<comment><USER4> You should also do some keyword volume research (using adwords keyword tool for example). It will show you which keywords are popular, and then you can tailor your content in consequence.

You can also use the list google suggest gives you: if you start typing "books barack obama" the first reading result is "has read" and not "reads". Hence it suggests to me that you should optimize for "books barack obama has read" (meaning that should be the title of your page and your first H1 tag to start with).

That's just one example :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Great endorsement idea!

Another way would be to show up where the buyers are: i.e. maybe you could add reviews at amazon that also state that this book is a vip read.

You might also consider of using your site a bit more efficiently: instead of posting large pictures and text about the vips (which are known to most anyways) you should post the frontcovers of the books right away.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot nurik for the feedback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> has the traffic that you've received so far translated into any actual affiliate business for you?

<comment><AUTHOR> yeah.. but very minimal. out of curiosity, why do you ask?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> You may want to reconsider your target audience, because I'd be willing to bet it is roughly equivalent to the null set.

The kind of people who care about the lives of celebrities are quite likely _not_ the kind of people looking for book recommendations. Mascara or purse recommendations, perhaps. But not books.</comment>