Ask HN: In a difficult situation at work. Need advice - <AUTHOR> Exceeded text limit, posted on Pastebin here: http://pastebin.com/raw/g0kQfuYW
I'll include the TL;DR here:
TL;DR: Project in a very messy situation, I'm under tremendous pressure to deliver while all responsible parties are on vacation, my performance rating from 2.5 months ago was lowered after the fact, and a promotion I was told to be given was withdrawn. Advice? And are they even allowed to do that? <comment><USER2> 1\. Yes, they are allowed to do that, assuming you're an at will employee with no contract that specifies otherwise.

2\. I'd give notice, citing the change in performance review and withdrawal of the promotion/raise as the cause. It's one thing to work in what appear to be horrific conditions, it's another to then be retroactively denied compensation.

The main X factor is when you give notice, and that's up to you: personally, I'd probably give notice immediately and see if the company counters with an offer to reinstate what you were promised. Otherwise, start looking for another job and give notice as soon as you get an offer.

This will certainly come up during your next job interview, so you don't want to burn any bridges or get too emotional about this (even though you have the right to, for sure):

\- Be calm and factual when explaining why you're giving notice, to prevent poisoning the reference: your performance review was changed after the fact, and you were denied compensation and an advancement opportunity you were previously promised. In any situation, this is a reasonable and justified reason to leave a job.

\- Do not give K as your reference. Give one of your other superiors.

\- When explaining why you left your previous company during interviews, you don't want to throw them under the bus. Explain that you were looking to advance and grow as a developer, but those opportunities were not available at the previous company.

<comment><USER3> I don't agree with giving notice without giving K's boss a chance to prove they can right this thing, and that can be done at no cost to the OP and potentially has a huge upside.

<comment><USER4> The cost to OP is all the opportunities they don't take in the mean time and whatever mental cost they're paying by persisting in a horrible environment.

It might be worth it if they had an awesome relationship with their boss, a lot of trust built up, but it doesn't sound like that's the case. If they'd a decent relationship, and decent managers, the situation would never have reached this point in the first place. Add to that the fact that the company went back on their word...

They're either liars or stunningly incompetent. Neither's worth counting with.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Why haven't you quit yet?

I don't mean the question harshly or sarcastically. I'm suggesting you take a hard look at your motivations for staying even this long. I'm sure some of them are positive: you say the project interests you technically; maybe you have at least one or two co-workers you enjoy working with. But are there any negative motivations? Those could include martyrhood: a feeling that you somehow have to save this project, even though you almost certainly can't. Or, maybe you have some fear around interviewing, or are unsure you can find anything better. Or maybe just plain inertia.

If you thought that the project might somehow succeed and that you would ultimately get credit for that, that would be one thing. But in the extremely unlikely event that it does succeed, it's clear that K will get the credit; she's already moved to sideline you.

There's nothing here for you. Really. Find another job _now_.

<comment><AUTHOR> Honestly it matters very little to me who gets credit, and I definitely do have people that I enjoy working with.

Sadly with the direction this project is heading, with K's role in this project, and with the lack of positive change from upper management after so feedback from many parties has really taken its toll/disheartened me. I do agree I need to find another job, it's just a bit hard now during holiday seasons and where I'm located.

Definitely working on it though, thank you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Personally I wouldn't want to work for an employer who'd retroactively change my performance reviews.

On the other hand, working for AWS is hardly any sort of panacea. Initially it'll feel good to be out of your current situation, but there's a reason why Amazon burns through so many people - and as a Seattleite, I've heard lots of bad stories. I suggest you consider other options assuming you can hold things together until hiring starts again Jan/Feb.

</comment><comment><USER7> I searched this page for the string "lawyer" and didn't find it yet. I hope you can see why. I would ask your lawyer about the laws about constructive dismissal in your jurisdiction, and generally what your rights are.

Ideally, you would be able to find a new workplace before suing their asses, and you would get some sort of settlement. Of course it's not a risk everyone would take, have a think about the situation. Perhaps the AWS job is still open?

I would definitely leave though. Having a person who can't code in charge of coding is a bad idea, and it can only get worse with the deadline looming. Coding is not like doing a bunch of slides, where you can suddenly cut the scope and still have something that works. (Why did I bring that up? Because if you're doing a non-coding project, you can often just chop the scope and still have something.) They've broken Brook's Law by adding people near the deadline AND they then lost those people, deservedly.

You're also being positioned for the blame, showing they simply don't know what they're doing. How are they going to deliver anything with you and an intern? The least fair thing that can happen is you and the intern produce a sub-par product, and you then get the blame. Your company loses the contract, or the bosses find some other people to do the work under a different name, and you get the boot. Sorry if I sound cynical, I just don't want you to suffer.

</comment><comment><USER3> Mail the pastebin.com text to the boss of K, and if the result of that is not to your liking hand in your notice. Make it clear that you unconditionally request her removal or you will walk. This likely will result in you leaving the company but give her boss a chance to right the ship. If they don't then the situation is beyond your ability to influence.

If I were K's boss and unaware that this was happening (which I would consider my own failure) I would very much appreciate a heads up and I would make very sure that I'd do what is best for the company. Assuming you are telling the truth there are more than enough hand-holds in your email to verify this. Specifically the time-log and a bunch of other evidence. If your story tallies and hers does not the decision is clear. If it is a toss up you will have to leave, if hers is the one that I find more credible then you'll have to leave too.

Either way, I'd appreciate the notice and I would definitely take it serious, the project is large enough to be taken that serious.

best of luck.

<comment><USER8> Only do this, if you still care about the job and keeping it.

If you don't, do this at the exit interview.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Other posters are giving good advice. I agree with finding a better place to work. However, reading between the lines, I have some more general advice which you can follow or not, as you see fit.

As one of the other posters mentioned, you seem to be young. I say that not because you say anything in particular that gives it away, but that most of us old guys have gone through what you're going through many times before. Team lead is usually as much a political position as it is a technical position. Knowing how to deal with these issues and how to surf the chaos that can happen at the programmer/manager interface is a big part of the job.

I don't want to kick you while you're down, but it's important to realize that you have not succeeded in the political side of your job. It may very well be the case that you could not succeed, no matter what you did. That happens. However, you need to be quicker on the draw to either solve the problem or get out. It's way too late now (which is why the advice here is uniformly telling you to get out). In fact, understanding when _not_ to take a team lead position is very important for your career.

When you have a failed project like this (and from your description, you can feel free to mentally label this project with a big red "failed" stamp), it is quite important to reflect upon what _you_ could have done to save it. It's easy to say, "It was K's fault" or "Nobody listened to me", but if you were to save the project, it is entirely possible that it will require you to influence K in a certain way. Or perhaps you need to get more influence with people higher up in the project. The fact that your performance report was downgraded indicates a certain souring of the relationship with those above you. Rather than worrying about whether they can do this, you should be wondering, "Where did I screw up that relationship?"

My advice to you is to find a position with a _very_ strong lead developer. When interviewing for a new position, make sure to seek out the lead you will be working for and choose a group where you will learn the skills that will enable you to be successful the next time you are in that role. I would advise you to avoid another lead position until you find that strong mentor (unless you are hard headed and don't mind the trial and error approach -- which is fine, but a bit taxing stress-wise ;-) ).

Good luck!

<comment><USER5> > Rather than worrying about whether they can do this, you should be > wondering, "Where did I screw up that relationship?"

Yeah, well, the OP might have screwed it up, or K might have successfully backstabbed the OP.

Offering the back end team one's own team members is a selfless act. I'll wager it's not the only way that the OP has demonstrated a commitment to the success of the project. A healthy organization recognizes such a commitment and rewards it with increased influence at the very least (ideally, with increased compensation as well).

This is not a healthy organization, and the OP can't fix it. It's time to leave.

<comment><USER10> That may be true, but self-reflection is a win/win scenario. You can always make a situation _better_ , even if you can't _fix_ it. OP should definitely leave the job, but the GP is correct in that he shouldn't just say "It's K's fault" and leave it at that. The question to ask yourself is: if I ever get into this situation again, what will I do differently to effect a different outcome?

<comment><USER11> So true. I find this to be the case with all bad experiences in life, not just professional ones. It's easy to place blame and rationalize how it's not your fault. Playing through scenarios of how you could have single handedly altered the course is a great learning exercise. It's too late for this project and it is time to set it down as gracefully as possible and walk away, but it's never to late to learn how to do better in the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Highly recommend getting out of there and looking for a new job. Depending on your financial situation I'd either get out this very moment or try to hold on another paycheck or two while sending out resumes and taking phone screens. Judging based on your pastebin I'd say that K is incompetent both on a technical (busy work and response times of backend calls) and on a people level (highly political, doesn't bother with proper requirements/communications). You can't change K and it might be a long time before she will get herself in trouble and eventually fired. So, waiting this one out is not an option, good luck finding something new, ping me if you need some leads.

<comment><AUTHOR> I definitely do need some leads. The situation is getting increasingly taxing on me both mentally and technically despite my attempts to keep calm. How do I reach out to you?

<comment><USER12> follow me on twitter @zinssmeister and send me a DM

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I've been in a similar situation. There's nothing worth salvaging. It looks like your best option is to get out. Start looking for your next job immediately. It's easier to get hired when you're currently employed. Don't consider any counter-offers they might make. Leave quietly and professionally. As tempting as it might be to make a dramatic exit, there's no upside, in terms of your career. And take comfort in the fact that you'll probably one day look back on this as a valuable learning experience.

</comment><comment><USER14> From what I've read, I'd say that you seem a bit too soft for a team lead. That's something you can improve though, but it looks like it's a bit late for this project.

A team lead's role's spread across several areas: ensuring the project is set up in a healthy way to optimize quality/speed ratio, mentoring team members, and working with product managers (if applicable) to solve problems/remove obstacles which can harm the project.

From your narrative, you seem to cover first and maybe second point, but be completely off the loop on the third one. When faced with a defective team member as K seems to be in your story, you have to solve the issue. Start with talking one-to-one with the problematic element to see if things can be settled, and if not, go up the management chain without hesitation, explaining clearly why K's behavior is harmful and proposing some actions.

You say that you're 'not invited' to their meetings, and that's an issue because you mustn't rely on 'being invited', you should be the one who drives the thing and invite the others. If you don't rise up and speak for yourself, nobody will, and the blame will fall on you. A lead is not passive.

One important thing is putting each of your action in the perspective of the project. You're not 'pointing finger' at a coworker, you're stating that the project can't move on and is at great risk because of some missing parts, and you're willing to work with the responsible of those parts to have them done.

Same thing for your reviews, you're a lead, you shouldn't be given a paper to sign and vague excuses. Firmly request detailed explanations, and if not provided refuse to sign anything.

If after taking enough actions, things don't resolve as they should, start looking elsewhere for work. A company which fails to take the good advice doesn't deserve talented devs, and there is more opportunities for talented devs than talented devs to fill them up.

But on your end, don't accept tasks as lead if you're not prepared to assume the 'lead' part of them.

[edit: formatting]

<comment><USER5> There may be some truth in this, but I think it's overstated. The OP did speak up about major issues with the project, even suggesting moving people from the front end team to the back end team, which was done.

I don't think there's much one can do about an co-worker at one's own level, who is successfully blaming everyone else for the project's problems, accumulating influence, and driving away competent subordinates. You just have to get out. Eventually management may figure out the real problem, but if they don't get it yet, you can't wait around for them to get a clue.

<comment><USER14> From what I read, OP did speak up at the beginning to say that backend was late, but never directly put K's methods as the center issue, to avoid 'pointing fingers'.

Even when transferred team members complained, before leaving, OP didn't state in the text that anything was brought up to management.

There are orgs where managers 'above' the team lead level are completely clueless about the technical side, and OP's company seems to be of this type if K's getting away with her behavior, meaning that she can bullshit her way through this if nobody on the same level rises the issue.

Still, I'd agree with getting out of this type of org anyway, but upon reading I just feel like OP didn't 'fight' properly. There are several levels of action that one can take in this situation: trying to influence the coworker's behavior, face to face discussion, documented report of what's wrong to management, asking for an assessment of project state by another experimented tech lead... And these actions have to be taken early on, quitting being the last resort.

Note that I'm bringing this up because I haven't seen these mentioned explicitly in OP's writeup, so I assume that none of these strategies have been tried, but I may be wrong.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I would try to focus on improving the communication and collaboration between the two teams.

I'm on the backend team with only two of us. I'm the sole REST developer. The UI team has three people. I sit with one UI developer to my right, one right behind me, and the UX designer kiddy-corner.

When features come up, ask five us talk about the requirements. The UI guys provide input on how they'd like the API to work. As we build, I ask them questions, they ask me questions. When I think I'm done, I push to a test server where they can hit on it. Sometimes they find I missed something or ask if I can add something.

In short, were referred to in the company as the "app team". UI + API is really one team with the same goal.

I would recommend coming up with ideas that you think would help move the project forward and present those to the management two levels up and try to get buy in from them. You might find yourself in an even better position if you can actually salvage the project rather than just leaving it.

</comment><comment><USER16> You seem quite young. Did you email your AWS IAM contact and ask if that job offer is still on the table?

<comment><USER17> +1 on this. If AWS wanted to hire you then, likely as not they probably want to hire you just as much now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Just get the fuck out of there--the company has shown it'll lie about your performance, that it doesn't know what the hell it is doing to develop software, and that it'll allow malicious and incompetent people free reign.

When, not if, that project craters, K will probably throw your ass under the bus. Get out.

<comment><USER5> > When, not if, that project craters, K will probably throw your ass under the > bus.

Looks like that's already happened.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Sometimes it takes a time to recognize failed middle-management (people can get over-promoted and/or change colours) -- a frank chat with senior management might be mutually beneficial. If you're inclined to try and rescue this, then consider going up _two_ more levels, asking for a lunch to speak with a business owner about the project. Be calm and respectful, emphasizing your mutual interest in a successful project.

</comment><comment><USER20> Sad story. Sounds like you really care a lot about the project and in this case perhaps a bit too much. That your management has been pretty unclear with you suggests that the communication channels are broken as well.

My suggestion for you in your next job (as I think the environment has gotten so twisted where you currently are that it makes little sense for you to continue there) is stay focused on your deliverables. Don't give away developers that you lead. When others are not providing the support you need, bring it up with your manager that you have time to work on other stuff while you wait, or you can keep honing your project. Only do things you are asked to do (don't volunteer) and when questioned about why you are working on something explain it was because some superior asked you too.

The politics you're running into are wrapped up around ownership, competency, and leadership. By trying to help it sounds like you stepped on some toes (easy to do). The goal here is to have your manager doing the stepping on toes, not you. That keeps you clear of the politics and that is why you tell your manager you've got your stuff done as much as can be done and ask them what _they_ want you to do next. Do that proactively, don't sit around because you have nothing to do, and they will give you new things to work on. And people who have a problem with what you're working on will have to blame your manager not you.

While it seems silly to have to do this, when you detect you're working with people who can't be adults about what needs to be done and who is, and is not, getting it done. You need to either leave or keep your head down. I recommend the former, life is too short to work with idiots, but if you really like your teammates or the project you're working on do the latter. Force the directives to come from your manager and you are left as the person getting things done and they are the person putting you on these projects.

</comment><comment><USER21> Do your best at the job you have, and start looking for new jobs. Sounds like the current place is a mess, and there's nothing you can do to fix it; you've raised your concerns, and that's all you can do. You can re-iterate that professionally in your exit interview.

<comment><USER22> Out of curiosity, when you say "do your best" do you mean go all the way and pull all nighters and weekends or does it mean do your best within the work hour ranges?

<comment><USER21> By 'do your best' I mean to work professionally, which _doesn 't_ entail all- nighters or weekends except in exceptional cases.

Show up at 8, have a nice lunch, leave at 5 and work like a professional during that time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> My 2 cents: Get an offer elsewhere and give your notice. Don't bring this up to you future employer and find a generic excuse for leaving.

</comment><comment><USER24> Sounds like you have a choice — you can run from the political shitstorm that is around the corner (look for another job), engage with K and HR and her manager frankly and honestly (not easy), or just keep your head low and wait for everything to blow over. The choice is definitely up to you. You seem like a good communicator. Perhaps try succinctly voicing your concerns to someone else who can help advise or assist within the organization?

You could also start more carefully by asking direct questions about whose mistake it was to tell you about promotions and bonuses before the decisions were completely finalized, and what _specifically_ the mistake in your performance evaluation was. When in doubt, always get more information first.

<comment><USER6> Any action that involves engaging with HR is a mistake, pure and simple. They're there to protect the company even when it's acting through managerial malfeasance.

<comment><USER25> HR is not there for you. HR is there for the company.

I've made the mistake of thinking that HR would solve malfeasance and Bad Political Shit done to me by managers. Won't make that mistake again.

<comment><USER26> I don't completely agree and have experienced otherwise, but it also depends on whether the manager is going against company culture and policy.

<comment><USER25> Let's just say that making a manager's girlfriend mad at me (she was a cow- orker of mine, he was a manager in the same group) and thinking that HR would fix anything forced me into one of the best career choices I ever made (srlsly!)

<comment><USER24> Any company which is OK with manager-subordinate romance is not worth working for, IMO.

<comment><USER25> Company was okay. That group, not so much . . .

<comment><USER24> Fair enough, although this seems like something which is ideally a company- wide policy from very early on. FWIW, I regretted typing that after re-reading it later. There are most certainly exceptions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Whoa. Take A Deep breath.

Speaking as a director-level leader of a shadow IT group who has (pardon my French) been through some shit, the situation isn't as bad as it looks on the surface....

Some key points:

\- yes. You've got a cluster fuck in progress; K seems to be lacking in IT mgmt skills.

\- regarding reviews, raises, and promotions they can do more or less whatever they want with those and nothing counts until the ink is dry. Nor will anyone who matters give two shits about them 90 days later. None of my big $ moves ever lined up with any review (actually, most of the time it was exactly opposite).

\- The more pertinent question is "will I be fired" over this? Which would be silly if the facts are as you say. You are one of the remaining few who understands how the app is supposed to work.

In the long run, you know how the system works and she does not. I've played this game before several times and wind up walking my tormentor out the door.

Suggestion: mentally write off the promotion and ignore your review, dismiss all short term noise; focus on things which drive where you will be 12M-24M out. (This is also why I have never protested a review in the past 15 years; nobody gives a shit if you survive).

Fun games to play:

1) Inform C that you don't have enough access to what is going on in K's process, due to being excluded from the team lead meetings. Point to this as a source of delays and "confusion". Do so in writing.

2) Get K to put down specs; go ask clarifying questions with appropriate next level mgmt on copy. Gently highlight gaps.

3) Ideal time to get creative in how you develop / document solutions on the front end; I would give as little detail as possible to make it harder to fire me.

4) Call a meeting of your own, that overlaps the purpose of the meeting she excluded you from. It's agenda should be something like requirements validation or solution design. Be nice but indicate you need it to accomplish your goals.

What you're setting up here is a slow boiling cauldron of incompetence charges again K and yourself as a trusted "competent" source in the app and underlying technology.

Move SLOWLY and GENTLY in laying this groundwork; soft innocent questions are best. Be like water...drip drip drip. Slowly wearing away at her credibility and building your own. Maintain emotional control and calm when she lashes out (she will).

Look for a new job, of course. This crap may be more than you want to deal with and that's ok. But there are ways of fighting back against bullies like this....

<comment><USER28> Thanks for taking the time to write this!

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> > I suggest that we "loan" 2 of our current 4 people to the back-end

That was your biggest mistake.

In abstract theory, moving developers from frontend to backend might have sense, but in practice you moved developers from capable tech leader (you) to incapable tech leader (K).

So, in essence, your suggestion made these two developers to wasting their time and, ultimately, quitting in frustration.

At the time of your "loan 2 developers" suggestion did you know that K was a clueless developer/lead?

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree. I feel partly responsible for their frustrations on K's team and ultimately, their departure. Sometimes I wonder if things would be better had I not made that suggestion.

And no, I did not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Based on your TL;DR.

Keep a timestamped journal documenting what is happening daily. Keep it separate from their systems, but be careful not to include their IP in it.

My (limited) understanding is that such record-keeping can carry some weight, if things ever go to court or to some form of review -- arbitration, unemployment insurance qualification, etc. Hand-written might actually be better, because it demonstrates the amount of work that went into journaling and is additionally in your own hand. Also, there is no risk of it bleeding onto their systems nor onto the public Internet.

Second, based on your description, it is time to move on. Don't tell them this, in advance and beyond whatever "two week" or the like notice you may feel is appropriate. Just do it.

In my experience, once the company starts failing on its commitments and shifting blame onto you, the ship has sailed. Get out, before you're tossed out.

P.S. Some of your management may talk about some eventual "once things have improved" scenario. Don't believe it. Just look at their _current_ actions.

Very likely, they are waiting for the opportune time when _they_ have their ducks in a row, to let you go. (That includes, if they are competent for their own purposes, sufficient/overwhelming documentation to justify their eventual decision -- even if it is and including "manufactured" scenarios that guarantee resulting documentation of your "failure".)

Yes, this all sounds rather cynical. Another word for that is, "realistic."

Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER31> Hi,

From what you say, the chance of any real fix is almost nil, as no one seems to have a grasp of the elephant that is software development and what it entails. All the delay, number of bugs filed and the new recruits leaving should have raised red flags all over.

Unless you are someone who thrives in office politics, you need to bail out right now. Software development is a mentally taxing job and its something you need a lot of mental stamina to do. Poisonous environments like these will erode your stamina and your love for your career in general. That is a perfect recipe for burnout. Unfortunately, the first time burnout happens, most of us do not know we have reached that point until much after the fact. You need to preserve your sanity and well being first as this experience can potentially affect your performance and contentment in the next job too.

Do not regret this experience. Try to accept it, learn from it and move on. This will help you filter out similar traps in the future.

</comment><comment><USER32> My advice is to try your best to deliver by the deadline. You want to be able to tell future employers (and yourself!) that you did what you could, and that you didn't bail during a final push.

After that, leave. You evidently have the ability to secure good job offers. Don't gripe about this when interviewing (it's a red flag). Just focus on moving your career forward.

</comment><comment><USER33> Also being discussed on /r/cscareerquestions:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/3y8ite/n...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/3y8ite/need_advice_performance_rating_dropped_and/)

</comment><comment><USER34> Sorry to hear about the project heading in the wrong direction beside your attempts. As many suggested sooner or later things are going to blow up and you need to either be prepared to face the storm since you are acting as a team lead, or simply either move to another group in the company or find a new place by sending your resume around. When it is going to blow up, and if you are still there I will advise you to keep track of any emails that you may have sent and shared in larger group with your concerns. Being able to show some accounting of what happened may help you overall.

Personally I will get the hell out of there: it is not worst wasting your time, energy and stress level especially considering what they are doing to your review. Working in a toxic environment is not good in the long term.

</comment><comment><USER28> K is incompetent, this is not unusual or uncommon. What you have failed to do is cover your own ass, and play the political game. It's probably to late to recover an upward career trajectory at this company, if that matters to you, move on. Otherwise hunker down and protect yourself from this persons incompetence, all this busy work are api and requirements changes. Document them and make it known every change expands the already stresses schedule. Don't rush to fix the crap k team breaks, let it go. You're new line is "our stuff is done except these x items k team broke".

As others said this disfunction is the norm, anything better is the exception.

</comment><comment><USER35> Whoever promised an early Jan delivery date for a $700M project is insane.

</comment><comment><USER36> In situations like this, its normal to think that your own behavior is faultless, and that the "others" are conspiring to screw you over.

In reality, its usually _you_ that is the problem. For whatever reason, the people in power don't view you as a key player. They may even be hoping you'll leave.

Situations like this are pretty much unrecoverable, so best to look for another job.

But, do think hard about where you went wrong, so that the same thing doesn't happen again.

</comment><comment><USER37> Put in notice, your life will be so much better.

</comment><comment><USER38> You need to do any sane person does when facing a disaster of epic proportions. RUN & DON'T LOOK BACK!

Sadly most workplace disasters are like tsunamis, people don't realize the severity until it's too late and bridges end up getting burned.

</comment><comment><USER39> Call in sick to decide and to spam your resume. Once u have interviews lined up give notice.

</comment><comment><USER40> Got a link to your resume?

<comment><USER41> I'm pretty sure it isn't, but this question _could_ be a trap.

<comment><USER42> I am 99% that's not the case. The author has a public profile my guess is that he is referring to this[1].

[1] [https://quaxio.com/join_square/index.html](https://quaxio.com/join_square/index.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> Run away.</comment>


All Trains in the Netherlands Are Now Powered by Wind Energy - <AUTHOR> https://edgylabs.com/2017/01/14/trains-netherlands-wind-energy/ <comment><USER2> This claim is a bit disingenuous because nothing that runs all the time can be 100% powered by renewable energy. When the wind is not blowing, the trains run on fossil fuels, nuclear or whatever.

Sure, there is some paperwork that claims their electric bill is financing wind construction, but in the end the windmills put power into the grid with all the other power and the trains consume it.</comment>


Need a browser with one Tab - <AUTHOR> http://bhoomitv.tumblr.com/post/49685320064/need-a-browser-with-only-one-tab-or-may-be-two

<comment><USER2> You might want to sit down for this. Are you sitting down? Good.

The browser you want is Internet Explorer.

(I know, right? But I'm serious!)

IE lets you turn off tabbed browsing completely with a simple settings change. The following steps are how you do it in Windows 7/IE 10, they may vary slightly for other versions of Windows or IE.

1) Go to Control Panel > Internet Options.

2) Go to the "General" tab.

3) Click the button labeled "Tabs".

4) In the dialog box that pops up, titled "Tabbed Browsing Settings," un-check the box labeled "Enable Tabbed Browsing."

5) Click "OK."

That's it, you now have your 1998-style tabless browser! Enjoy.

 _But smacktoward, I'm not on Windows! What do I do for a tabless browser on other platforms?_

Despair, mostly. You can turn off most tabbed-browsing features in Firefox (go to Options > Tabs and un-check everything), but all that does is suppress things like new windows opening in new tabs; you can still manually open new tabs if you want to. AFAIK Chrome has no way to turn off or suppress tabbed browsing at all.

But come on, you're looking for a real Clinton-era browsing experience! Chrome didn't even exist back then, and nobody used Macs. So spin up a Windows VM, un-tabify IE, pop in a Third Eye Blind CD and go to town.

<comment><USER3> This comment combines useful information AND witty humor. Reddit could learn from this.

<comment><USER2> Thanks! If you enjoyed this comment be sure to check out my upcoming book, _Smells Like Tweak Spirit: The Grunge-Rock Guide To Browser Configuration Settings._

<comment><USER4> Hahaha, you made my day mate :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> With Firefox's tab-groups, the fact it doesn't load tabs at startup until you switch to them, and the TreeStyleTabs extension I can easily and efficiently have over a hundred tabs "open" and everything still stays fast and efficient and uncluttered.

Basically, I never use bookmarks anymore - when I'm researching some topic, I do a bunch of searches, open a bunch of interesting results, and when I need to task-switch to some other topic I shuffle them all off to a tab-group, name it, and come back to it weeks or months later.

Another good application is having a tab-group per project - I can have a collection of tabs with API docs, SQL docs, specifications and such, and stash all that state and restore it almost instantly. As added benefit, since Firefox's AwesomeBar will prefer to complete from the names and URLs of open tabs, an easy way to switch to, say, the "CREATE TABLE" docs when I have a dozen identically-iconned tabs open is to just say Ctrl-T, "CREATE T", Down, Enter.

<comment><USER6> I do the same. Tab groups in Firefox effectively solve the problem of having too many tabs, IMHO.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I personally experience this problem. However, I "solve" it by opening up a few windows. I use specific windows for specific content. So, window #1 is random articles I set aside to read, #2 is work-related research, and so on. It's still not ideal, but better than nothing. I think the issue is that there is only one convenient way to organize open documents -> VERTICALLY. It's just much easier to scan and scroll through (and can't get the issue where the tabs are quickly indiscernible due to lack of space).

Ideal solution (IMO) is multiple browser windows horizontally and tabbed content within each vertically.

<comment><USER8> Rather than multiple windows, I prefer the tab groups feature from firefox. Keeps all my tabs in one window but keeps the other groups isolated and away.

<comment><USER7> I'll have to see if chrome has a similar feature.

<comment><USER9> It doesn't have one that works as well as Firefox tab groups and will never have because of AddOn permissions/APIs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> If you actually need a browser with just one tab, try surf: <http://surf.suckless.org/>

<comment> qu4z-2 I will second this recommendation. I'm a big surf fanboy.

Not only does it force me to focus a bit more, but in my experience it loads pages significantly faster than Chrome or Firefox. Which I wouldn't have thought possible, but there you go.

Also, make sure you use a recent version if you need the Web Inspector.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Dondrey's Law: The number of tabs a programmer has open is proportional to how stressed out they are.

</comment><comment><USER12> A friend recommended I try The Great Suspender* (Chrome extension) for dealing with tab overload. I tried it and then disabled it - just didn't seem to work for me for whatever reason. Might be of use to others though.

My current method is to split tabs across various windows. I have 61 tabs open across eight windows (general, project, travel research, accounting, time tracking, articles, etc). It was 80+ last night but I made an effort to cull a few.

Sometimes I use tabs like bookmarks, storing things for later. Articles to read, Wikipedia pages I want to explore, music mixes I plan to download or stream, something I will buy when I can be bothered remembering the password for that store account, etc. It's quite pathetic really.

* [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/the-great-suspende...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/the-great-suspender/klbibkeccnjlkjkiokjodocebajanakg)

</comment><comment><USER13> I always have 2-5 windows open with 5-30 tabs in each. This is an interface problem that needs to be solved, nobody really needs that many tabs open. It becomes ridiculous when you don't want to update your browser incase you lose all your tabs.

I noticed that I am really using tabs as a form of nascent bookmarking. Each window is a group or project and serves as a reading list, and then each tab is an item to read.

With option + click it is easy to add items to the reading stack that you can go back to later.

This could all be replaced with a simple plugin that manages these stacks in a sidebar. You could then go back to using only a single window and the tabs as collections.

Bookmarks are too permanent, while tabs are too temporary - browsers need something in between that is a way of arranging what to read next.

<comment><USER14> I think the real issue is that back and forward _do not work._

They destroy state. They lose their place on the page. They're still not immediate. They've broken server sessions so often that I have (as most have, I imagine) conditioned myself to completely avoid using them.

Tabs were invaluable in the days of slow connections. But new pages load pretty fast these days. The problem is getting back to the original page is fraught with trouble.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> What you need is Tab Wrangler. It's an extension for Chrome. It will close inactive tabs for you. This means:

\- Tabs you don't care about will get closed. Even ones you think you care about but you don't really. If you cared you would have access the tab recently.

\- Tabs you do care about you will action appropriately. Either by finishing the task or by putting it into some kind of todo list/kippt/bookmarking/read later/etc.

I find having too many tabs open is taxing on the brain. It makes you feel stressed because you have so many unfinished things to do. It also prevents you from focusing on what is important.

</comment><comment><USER16> At any given time I usually have somewhere between 80-120 tabs open across 3-5 windows. Back when I used Firefox the problem used to be even worse - with the scrolling tab bar, I could easily end up with 200-300 tabs open. That's why I actually consider Chrome's constantly shrinking tabs as a feature - when I can't see the favicons anymore, it usually means it's time to close some tabs :-)

And since one window is rarely enough, I now have different windows for different contexts - HN and related reading have their own window, projects have their own etc. All in all it works out pretty well.

</comment><comment><USER17> Just kill the browser and restart it. They were useful at some point yesterday. You don't need them today, or if you do, you'll soon find them again. Chill out.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm building something (simple) to help with part of this as I known I face the same thing on a daily basis as well, but one thing I can recommend now is using <http://www.one-tab.com/>. It works well and I find myself not saving things off to read later, but instead just using it to find it.

<comment><USER19> I have once used OneTab. In the end, it was totally useless for me since it completely destroyed my external memory in the form of browser tabs. Hiding inactive tabs was definitely an wrong solution.

My two cents: The human behavior on tabs is surprisingly akin to garbage collection. Therefore I think we need some solution inspired by the incremental, generational GC. Gradually disappearing tabs may be such solution, for example. Many tabs are created in a group, and such group is garbage-collected altogether; pinned tabs behave like a statically allocated memory; the GC has to be able to determine if the tab is created in the context of other tabs or it is independent to others; if _I_ don't want tabs to be disappeared then I can go to the tab for the extended period to signal the GC not to hide this tab for now; etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> The part I don't get is the slowing down of the system. Even with 100+ tabs open chrome rarely gets above few gigabytes of ram combined and hardly utilizes more than a core.

My tab coping strategy is - just keep them open, every few days close all. If I havent checked it in 24 hours chances are it is not important.

<comment><AUTHOR> It does slow down my system. I'm using MacPro i5, 4GB RAM for development. In my case machine gave up when you try to debug JS/watch video on youtube when you have so many tabs open.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Yes and no, what we need is a better way to bookmark and navigate branching paths through our browser history.

</comment><comment><USER22> I do this too, like everyone else, but when I notice there are too many tabs opened, I just bite the bullet and close everything except for the currently opened tab (and sometimes close that too). Manual garbage collector.

</comment><comment><USER23> Yep, "Read Later" and Instapaper for the WIN. [http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TwoMustHaveToolsForAMoreReadab...](http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TwoMustHaveToolsForAMoreReadableWeb.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER24> If you aren't using it already OneTab is an amazing chrome extension: <http://www.one-tab.com/>

"Whenever you find yourself with too many tabs, click the OneTab icon to convert all of your tabs into a list. When you need to access the tabs again, you can either restore them individually or all at once.

When your tabs are in the OneTab list, you will save up to 95% of memory because you will have reduced the number of tabs open in Google Chrome."

<comment><USER24> I also use Session Buddy and Tab Organizer Chrome extensions. OneTab solves 90% of the problem for me though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> The Tab Count extension in Chrome lets me know that I have 88 tabs open right now. Things usually get out of control somewhere around 150.

I do know by experience that 256 is NOT a limit.

Please forgive the ridiculous chrome webstore URL, but here's the extension:

[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tab- count/cfokcacd...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tab- count/cfokcacdaonnckdmopmcgeanhkebeaio)

<comment><AUTHOR> In my 1280x800 resolution screen it's impossible to find needed tabs after 35+ tabs(i can't see the favicons).

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> 1\. Read Later/Instapaper. 2\. Manual garbage collection. 3\. Tab Ahead. Sublime Text's »Go To Anything«-like Chrome extension to help me navigate through the unavoidable mess of my open tabs. [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tab- ahead/naoajjeo...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tab- ahead/naoajjeoiblmpegfelhkapanmmaaghmi)

</comment><comment><USER27> Opera had multitab browsing before Firefox did (or Phoenix). But then again Opera was paid software at that point.

Nowadays I have a personal rule: If there are more than 10 tabs per browser, close until 10 tabs remain. Unless one of the tabs is this: <http://i.imgur.com/9yacZ5b.jpg>

<comment><USER28> Opera wasn't the first browser with tabbed browsing by far. There were a lot of Windows browsers that embedded the Trident engine, and some of them used variants of MDI for browsing. A few of them used tabs, the first well-known one being NetCaptor. Interestingly enough, it put the tabs on the bottom, which makes a bit more sense from a Fitts' Law perspective than putting the tabs near the other controls. This was a few years before Opera switched to tabbed browsing.

<comment><USER29> Fun to see NetCaptor mentioned here... I wrote it. The first version was released in 1998. I put the tabs on the bottom because HomeSite, the HTML editor that inspired NetCaptor, had tabs on the bottom.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I use <http://kippt.com/> to store things I want to read later.. I still end up having 50+++ tabs but that way I can close things I haven't read and put them into a queue.. some day I might read them.

<comment><AUTHOR> Same here, there's about 500 links pending in my Pocket.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> 1\. Lynx 2\. <http://surf.suckless.org/> 3\. <http://suckless.org/rocks>

<comment><USER32> <http://w3m.sourceforge.net/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> i'd like it if the browser would download the page, and save it to my hard- drive, with a summary title (which it might have to generate after an analysis), and then re-load it whenever i wanted to view it... (and delete it entirely when instructed to do that.)

in other words, use disk-space instead of memory...

-bowerbird</comment>


Moving from Medium – Does it make sense? - <AUTHOR> https://dvisagie.com/post/moving-from-medium/ <comment><USER2> [https://medium.com/@joe_wegner/why-i-dont-write-for- medium-c...](https://medium.com/@joe_wegner/why-i-dont-write-for- medium-c7cc156bc5d9)

[https://www.webdistortion.com/2019/05/16/can-we-all- please-s...](https://www.webdistortion.com/2019/05/16/can-we-all-please-stop- using-medium-now/)

[https://indieweb.org/POSSE](https://indieweb.org/POSSE)

(Food for thought)

<comment><USER3> "That's right — Medium owns your content. It owns it to the extent that it can copyright it and use it for any purpose that is "reasonably appropriate" to their service"

Dear god that is horrifying, I'm not sure if I stressed it in the article enough but my main goal was actually owning that editable source content because quite frankly I have changed my website time and time again. That said I like Hugo a lot and it meets my balance for simplicity vs control.</comment></comment>


Segment is giving away free Watsi gift cards - <AUTHOR> https://watsi.org/happy-holidays/

<comment><USER2> Chase this is super awesome! However, I hit a small snag. I wanted to go above the $20 and donate a total of $50 but Watsi won't let me because my gift card only has $20. I tried to sign up but couldn't find the button and eventually had to Google to find it. Maybe add a sign up button next to sign in, or allow me to donate $50 by adding a card now (when I hit donate).

Bilateral club foot is something that I struggled with as a child, I am extremely happy that I will help someone else to have the corrective surgery and lead a normal life. Thanks for that opportunity.

Thanks to you, Chase, for Watsi and thanks to Segment for making my life as a developer much easier by taking the pain out of implementing analytics in my software. Much love to both of you!

EDIT: Even after signing up and adding my credit card, I still can't donate more than $20 until I spend my gift card. Guess I'm making two donations.

EDIT2: Let me give Watsi more than a $6 tip! :)

<comment><AUTHOR> This is great feedback. We had to cut scope to get gift cards out in time for the holidays, but we're going to enable people to add value to their gift cards in the future. For now, we really appreciate the double donation :)

We're also working to reintroduce sign up. Re: tips, there's an "other" field where you can add any amount, and we're going to keep A/B testing the entire tip flow to make sure it's as simple as possible.

Thanks again. We have lots of work to do!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> We want to thank the team at Segment for making such a generous donation to Watsi patients.

Segment not only buys Watsi gift cards for each of their new employees, but they donate their product (which we love) to Watsi so we can fund healthcare for more patients using the best tools available.

They are amazing :)

</comment><comment><USER3> Wow, thank you! It took less than 90 minutes for all 1,000 of Segment's gift cards to be claimed.

You can still buy a gift card here: [https://watsi.org/gift- cards](https://watsi.org/gift-cards). They're a holiday gift that's perfect for everyone and 100% of every gift card funds life-changing healthcare.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is really great! You can also head over to the Pay It Forward Bundle [https://payitforwardbundle.com](https://payitforwardbundle.com)

100% of the donations go to Watsi. We've nearly hit $100k in just about a week. Every bit helps!

<comment><USER5> I would buy this bundle if there were a better payment option. I do not trust a random credit card info box that pops up from a site that hasn't existed for very long. Bitcoin or Paypal would remove the need for me to trust you.

<comment><USER4> Hope you reconsider and support Watsi. All payments are processed securely by Stripe. Both the Pay It Forward Bundle site and Stripe are on HTTPS, and Stripe is fully PCI compliant. Good of you to be on the lookout, though!

<comment><USER5> I already have a monthly Watsi subscription :)

I saw that it was Stripe, but I am not comfortable using a direct payment entry interface like that when the website hosting it has no reputation or history.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is great, I just used the gift card and helped someone in less than 5 minutes, awesome website and very cool donation from Segment, much respect.

</comment><comment><USER7> Wow - can't believe I got in early enough to get one. Awesome. Does anyone know what the difference is between segment.io and Tealium, for instance?

EDIT: It went to my spam box - :( :(. Not a problem for me but its a shame if Watsi is being labeled as spam by outlook.

</comment><comment><USER8> It's neat that I didn't have to create an account to use the gift card, but I fat-fingered my email address when using it. I don't think I'll get an email confirming my donation (typed ".co.m" instead of ".com") because of this. Not sure how I can self-service fix this since I never created an account.

<comment><USER9> No worries - I'll fix that for you right now! Look for an email in your inbox shortly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm glad this came up on HN. I got an email telling me to claim my gift card and thought it was some sort of voucher for an online store. Just realised it is used to make a free donation on Watsi. I have since sent it on to a family member.

</comment><comment><USER11> I have a $20 Watsi gift card (I received a while back) that I would like to give to someone who is interested in signing up for Watsi. If you're interested, please email me (see my profile) with your email address.

Edit: Card has been claimed. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER12> Thank you Watsi for what you are doing and thank you Segment for this great donation!

</comment><comment><USER13> What do you think it costs Segment to do this? $20,000?

<comment><USER14> I would hope in a scenario like this, they're not getting them at a discount.

<comment><AUTHOR> Nope, they donated the full amount of the gift cards and 100% of the donation will directly fund healthcare.

<comment><USER15> Unless some people who claimed gift cards never use them?

<comment><USER16> Gift cards expire after 90 days, at which point the money on a gift card goes to our general fund for patients, so worst-case scenario, someone claims one of these and doesn't use it, the money will still go to patients' healthcare.

<comment><USER14> That is a fantastic way to handle this situation. I hadn't thought about this before, but it's great to know that the money will never go to waste!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Missed it :( Anyone feeling Christmas-sy and want to let me donate their gift card on Watsi? :D

</comment><comment><USER18> Very cool. Thanks for posting this.</comment>


Twitter to ban political advertising on its platform - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/jack/status/1189634360472829952 <comment><USER2> The discussion is over here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401973](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21401973)

<comment><USER3> We've moved the comments there.

But this one was earlier. Why did the same submitter post the same story twice in two minutes?

<comment><USER2> Why indeed ...</comment></comment></comment>


ART+COM sues Google - <AUTHOR> http://www.artcom.de/aktuell/news/detail/art-com-klagt-gegen-google/ <comment><USER2> ART+COM should look at the comparison photos in this article. Google Earth blows ART+COM out of the water. And that's besides the fact that they're both trying to represent real things, so of course they'll look similar if both do a relatively good job of representing real things.

<comment><USER3> I think the issue here isn't the content of the images, but the fact that the positions align, zooming in on the sphere.

FTA: " Instead, the patent covers the basic technology that, for example, allows Google Earth users to fly over the earth to a particular destination"

So if Google's system uses the same techniques/algorithms to move around the sphere (and these images are pretty convincing) it would indicate some copying of IP. Where to position a view of the Earth in 3D is pretty open ended, that's why the similarities may be less than coincidental.</comment></comment>


What Intelligence Agencies Concluded About Russian Attack on the U.S. Election - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/politics/russian-hack-report.html <comment><USER2> Summary from a previously deleted comment here:

      "It's concerning how influential Russia's propaganda & PsyOps
      campaign has affected America(ns)"

It's interesting to hear about the recent talking points in major news media publications about "FAKE NEWS" which is just newspeak for Propaganda.

Some might not be aware, but in 2013 the US removed protections against domestic propaganda:

      The U.S. Information and Educational Exchange Act of 1948
       (Public Law 80-402), popularly called the Smith–Mundt
      Act, specifies the terms in which the United States
      government can engage global audiences, also known as
      propaganda. The act was first introduced as the Bloom
      Bill in December 1945 in the 79th Congress and
      subsequently passed by the 80th Congress and signed into
      law by President Harry S. Truman on January 27, 1948.

      The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year
      2013 (section 1078 (a)) amended the United States
      Information and Educational Exchange Act of 1948 and the
      Foreign Relations Authorization Act of 1987, allowing for
      materials produced by the State Department and the
      Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) to be released
      within United States borders for the Archivist of the
      United States.

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130715/11210223804/anti-...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130715/11210223804/anti- propaganda-ban-repealed-freeing-state-dept-to-direct-its-broadcasting-arm- american-citizens.shtml)

</comment><comment><USER3> Just a heads up, missing from the NYTimes highlights is a conclusion that RT ran anti-fracking activist programming as well, with the suggested goal being to increase dependence on Gazprom oil:

[http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/06/us-intel-report- confirms-k...](http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/06/us-intel-report-confirms- kremlin-pushed-anti-fracking-propaganda/)

To get the most complete information it is usually a good idea to read this kind of report directly:

[https://icontherecord.tumblr.com/post/155494946443/odni- stat...](https://icontherecord.tumblr.com/post/155494946443/odni-statement-on- declassified-intelligence)

The part about the anti-fracking stuff is on page 8.

<comment><USER4> Thanks, that is really interesting. Just last night, we were speculating what, besides general chaos, might be Russia's interest in Turnip, and fracking vs. oil came up.

It's kind of a baffling feeling, to be anti-fracking and to have to sort out what parts of your anti-fracking background information may have been derived from propaganda.

<comment><USER3> I would bet that Russia also has a longstanding policy to push propaganda against nuclear power. RT was raising a great deal of alarm after Fukushima, for example.

I don't mean to claim that all propaganda is false, or that you have to start supporting fracking or fission or anything, but it is always important to consider potential conflicts of interest with this stuff. As another example, Friends of the Earth was started by an oil company executive:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_the_Earth)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Orville_Anderson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Orville_Anderson)</comment></comment></comment>


Logitech: "We collect: Product use data... This can include button presses - <AUTHOR> https://www.logitech.com/en-ch/legal/product-privacy-policy.html#p_collection <comment><AUTHOR> Make sure to "read and understand" the text hidden away under "Click for more information" under "Collection of Information"...</comment>


Health regulatory and advocacy groups are deliberately corrupted - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/01/profits-over-your-dead-body/

<comment><USER2> During a second-year pharmacology course in medical school, our instructor was talking about the influence of pharmaceutical reps. He asked us to raise our hands if we would be influenced by a $1m gift. Most raised their hands. Then he asked us to keep them up if we would be influenced by a free car. Some hands dropped. Then a gift card for nice clothes. Still more hands dropped. Finally, he asked if we would be influenced by a slice of pizza.

I was the only person with my hand still up.

People really like to believe that they are above being influenced. People are wrong. It's OK, we just need to try to continue to redesign our medical system with that in mind.

<comment><USER3> Great post till the last sentence. But that sentence is doozy.

 _It's OK, we just need to try to continue to redesign our medical system with that in mind._

"We"? " _continue_ to redesign?" - I'd never question that health care is being constantly redesigned. But given that the present situation is product of the previous redesignings, would not you say that the "they (big pharma, etc)" redesigning to keep their profits and influence up has so-far outpaced, beaten "us" redesigning? That the _continuing process_ is broken, that if "we" is patients or doctors or whoever is most concerned with patients' well-being, "we" have to get off our duffs and do something if we are going have even a modest expectation of positive outcomes here?

<comment><USER2> I think you're right. If you omit "to continue" then I hope my last sentence becomes more valid.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> related:

# "Ben Goldacre: Here's the foreword to my new book, Bad Pharma (badscience.net)" ( 142 points )

[http://www.badscience.net/2012/09/heres-the-intro-to-my- new-...](http://www.badscience.net/2012/09/heres-the-intro-to-my-new-book/)

HN -> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4569559>

#2. "Something Doesn't Add Up: John Ioannidis and medical statistics (stanford.edu)" ( 49 points )

[http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?articl...](http://alumni.stanford.edu/get/page/magazine/article/?article_id=53345)

HN -> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4987387>

</comment><comment><USER5> One thing to do: set up a healthcare advocacy group as a honeypot. Try to figure out who the plants and shills are, document their behavior. Also, faithfully document the gifts/bribes received, and what the quid pro quo was.

Any takers?

</comment><comment><USER6> Pharma gives gifts to physicians _because giving gifts works_ to sell pharma's products.

When I was in medical school and residency, it was a standard thing that lunches were all sponsored by pharma. These were usually nice catered meals brought in by some pharm rep. The price was at least listening to a sponsored (biased) speaker, or a five minute sales pitch. Sometimes an office's or deparment's prescribing numbers for a particular drug were actually tracked and discussed, as if we were in a sales meeting and we were or were not meeting the pharmaceutical reps quota for sales. Dinners were even more elaborate, commonly held at some swank restaurant, with a paid physician (shill) brought in to present "research" about that company's drugs.

My attendings were offered tickets to desirable sporting events, or paid travel to medical conferences that just happened to be in Tahiti. There was that wink and nudge: _of course_ you would be using your own clinical judgment about the effectiveness of the drug being pushed. _Of course_ the freebies had no effect on your judgement. _Of course_ the published positive results reported at sponsored conferences and in sponsored journals constituted _all the data_ and _all the trials_ of that particular drug.

If you had qualms about big gifts or even meals, a pharma rep was always ready to give you a gift of the latest _textbook_ (embossed with the name of a drug and/or pharma company) or maybe a sponsorship to the latest conference: after all, augmenting your education would only benefit your patients, right? What could possibly be wrong with that?

Physicians are increasingly and rightfully refusing to accept gifts of any kind from pharma. It was unethical then and remains unethical now. Many med schools and residencies have now rightfully banned pharma reps from any contact.

We need more and better regulation, not less.

Ask your doctor if he or she accepts gifts. If they do, or if you see product advertisements of any kind in the office (to include pens, notepads, pharma- labelled equipment, drug/product brochures), _find yourself another doctor._

<comment><USER7> I'd also argue we need better education.

My pharm. class followed the typical academic exercise in memorizing information which was 80% useless to modern medical practice. The heavy focus on biochemistry and mechanisms of action were interesting but mostly irrelevant, because they didn't help us answer questions most relevant to _clinical_ practice; we don't typically choose drug A over B because of a biochemical property, but because there's _evidence_ that one works better than the other, is more cost effective, has a better response rate in a particular population, etc.

Shifting pharm. education to focus more on those types of things - how do we choose the right drug; how can we use _evidence_ to critically choose when a new, more expensive drug, is actually better? Or marginally better but cost- effective? This type of teaching is relegated to one-off class' and side- topics. Its not center stage.

The methods of big Pharma can definitely be unethical, but I think the real problem is our physicians are fundamentally _unprepared_ to ask the right questions and make the best decisions.

<comment><USER8> This isn't going to happen because it turns doctors into technicians: You have this illness? Click click click - OK it says this drug is best.

Doctors like the thought that they are evaluating each case based on first principles.

Right now there is: Dr. -> Urgent Care -> Emergency Room

We need something below Dr., for the really routine stuff. In some countries certain drugs are not over the counter, but are prescribed by pharmacists.

(Obviously there is a very important place for proper diagnosis. I'm talking about the really obvious stuff.)

<comment><USER9> In the UK its quite common to see a nurse for routine things that you're talking about here, personally I've not seen a doctor in years because of this.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why Ayn Rand's Psychology Is Probably Wrong (or Trivial) - <AUTHOR> http://philosophicalhacker.com/2015/01/24/why-ayn-rands-psychology-is-probably-wrong/

<comment><USER2> This man is swimming in the deep end of the pool and is in over his head.

First, Rand never offered an "Objectivist" psychology but she wrote an integrated philosophy that she called Objectivism. This is not a trivial point but I can let is slide because all philosophies imply, as the norm, a particular psychological type. In fact, most people reverse cause and effect and choose the philosophy they think is most aligned with their psychology. We have 4 choices in regards to philosophy but they encompass all the possibilities; Aristotelian and Randian or Platonic and Kantian or the Primacy of Existence -vs- The Primacy of Consciousness. There are miscellaneous variants and mixtures of these types but these are the essentials.

Second, Matt Dupree steps in his first pitfall when he writes; "I've met a surprising number of people in my life who believe that no one is capable of altruism. These people believe that everyone always acts to further their own interests. Many of these people are influenced by Ayn Rand."

This error was so common in Objectivist circles when Rand was alive she had her protege of the time, Nathaniel Branden, write an article specifically addressing and rejecting the affirmative to the question "Isn't Everyone Selfish?" published in the anthology "The Virtue of Selfishness". On Rand's behalf, Branden rejects this view attributed to Rand. So Mathew's second mistake was accepting what others say about Rand or Objectivism as representative of the truth about her ideas. Many people who claim to be Objectivists don't really have any deep understanding of Objectivism or Rand's ideas and it is best to get it straight from the horses mouth.

Third, and more importantly, Rand blasted the whole philosophy and epistemology of "two kinds of truth" deriving from Kant. She identified this as the analytic-synthetic dichotomy that follows from Kant's false theory of concepts. This topic was covered by Leonard Peikoff in her book: "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology" titled "The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy".

It will be interesting to see if Matt Dupree doubles down on his errors and continues with with additional parts or stops to check his premises and the straw man that he is attacking.

<comment><AUTHOR> I stand corrected. It looks like it was a mistake to attribute psychological egoism to Ayn Rand.

I do think, however, that the argument I setup in my post will turn out to be sound in spite of Rand's criticisms of the analytic-synthetic distinction.

<comment><USER2> Ah, its not just a minor criticism of the analytic-synthetic dichotomy but a devastating identification of Kant's fatal error regarding consciousness and his theory of concepts that eviscerates Kant's entire intellectual framework. Your whole "wrong or trivial" approach is an excellent example of the analytic-synthetic dichotomy "in the wild" and accepts the Kantian worldview. Your professors in grad school are wrong and either unable or unwilling to identify this fact.

Did you read the article by Leonard Peikoff?</comment></comment></comment>


Starbucks Now Lets You Save the Songs You Heard In-Store to Spotify - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2016/01/19/starbucks-now-lets-you-save-the-songs-you-heard-in-store-to-spotify/ <comment><USER2> Clever. I wonder if it's possible to build a "ticker" that displays the current playing song.

<comment><USER3> Many stores have flat screens that show (only) the artist and album currently being played.</comment></comment>


Your right to resell your own stuff is in peril - <AUTHOR> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/your-right-to-resell-your-own-stuff-is-in-peril-2012-10-04?pagenumber=1 <comment><USER2> It most definitely isn't enforceable, but for the last five years when I have bought something of value that I might want to resell or infringe in someway on copyright, I have emailed or mailed the company a two paragraph letter. I include a line that roughly says 'This letter is valid even if you don't read it, as it has been received by your company & that's your responsibility'. As well as 'the letter supercedes your T&C and any amendments I make with or without due notice.' Its much like the actions they take. I also mention that if they don't agree with it, they can provide a full and complete refund including shipping, and I will return the item.

Out of fifty-odd companies in five years, only two have replied. Well three, but the third was in Japanese and they asked me to write in Japanese not in English. The other two companies said my letter wasn't valid and they wouldn't refund me. I replied that since they didn't accept my terms as a customer, I didn't accept their terms as a company (the terms of which I couldn't read until the item was bought and opened). No further response was received by me.

Its a fun experiment to see how many companies reply and how. Wish more took the time, but having worked before in customer service (with very highly ranked teams), I know my letter will either be overlooked, misfiled or misplaced by those that don't necessarily understand or care all that much. I would have loved to have received a letter like that when I was in CS, it would have been a challenge and pleasure to reply. But I know my managers would have dreaded it and it would have been ignored, so as not to cause any problems for themselves.

<comment><USER3> You have a limited amount of time to assist a customer and move onto the next so spending any time whatsoever on "challenging" customers is an enormous waste of time. This reminds me of the guy who wrote about how he always buys two of everything from Amazon and the one that comes first is the one he keeps (or some other such nonsense).

I understand that you want to get something out of this experiment. A confrontation? I don't know. From what you've said ("out of fifty-odd companies in five years...") and how you reply to them you're essentially determined to try to become a problem for someone, _anyone_. Have you considered that this might be a mildly sadistic behavior?

<comment><USER4> It's an extremely minor revenge for the companies doing something morally wrong. You're reading too much into it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> According to the article, the case stems from a college student who created a business by having his family buy college textbooks in his native Thailand where the publishers sell them at a substantial discount, then reselling them on ebay here in the US. Textbook publisher Wiley sued; it was then that the defendant invoked the "first sale" doctrine.

Oh the irony. Can someone just disrupt these folks out of existence already?

<comment><USER2> I bought those books when I lived in Asia. The savings are huge, upwards of 80%. On the cover it does say "Not for Resale in North America & Europe" or "Not for Resale outside of (country)" on the cover. One note though, these books are usually an "international" edition which excludes some of the content usually found in the North American & European editions, including STEM subjects, which I initially found rather surprising.

When I first saw these editions more than ten years ago I had the same thought, of setting up a website and selling to North America and Europe. The main issues were finding sufficient supply (university libraries only order a certain amount for their own students) and that the editions were different. That can make a difference for some subjects and for the assignments.

<comment><USER6> the "not for resale" note on the cover is completely meaningless. They could also say "if you open this book you owe us 1 billion dollars" and the effect would also be the same - it would have zero ground to stand on in court.

<comment><USER7> Actually, when it comes to sales across borders, "Not for Resale Outside of [X country or region" has legal effect in every country that respects copyright.

First-sale doctrine is a uniquely American idea; it only applies to (first) sales subject to the jurisdiction of American courts. I.e., it would apply to a sale by Amazon to some dude in Japan and to a sale by Amazon JP to some guy in California, but not to a sale by Amazon KOR to some guy in China, who then resells into the U.S.

<comment><USER8> Of course the US laws on copyright only apply to the US, but the idea behind the first-sale doctrine exists elsewhere. I just looked up the Dutch rules[1], and it turns out it's very much the same. When a work is sold, the copyrights are "exhausted" and can no longer be invoked for that copy.

1: [http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkinge...](http://www.iusmentis.com/auteursrecht/spoedcursus/beperkingen/) (Dutch)

<comment><USER9> While it appears from your link that the Netherlands may have something similar to first-sale doctrine, many European countries have the exact opposite, _droit de suite_ , which allows for the original author (or their estate) to exercise control over any sale, not just the first.

<comment><USER10> What is the argument in favor of that?

<comment><USER11> So that when an artist sells a painting for $10 that gets resold for $100 million, the artist can realize some of the true value of the work they produced.

<comment><USER10> Why should they though? They thought it was worth $10. Why is their pricing mistake rewarded?

<comment><USER11> Appreciation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> >That's being challenged now for products that are made abroad and if the Supreme Court upholds an appellate court ruling it would mean that the copyright holders of anything you own that has been made in China, Japan or Europe, for example, would have to give you permission to sell it.

That ruling. I don't think it says what you think it says.

I wish I could say this was some of the worst reporting I've ever seen, but alas.

edit: for anyone who wants to read it <http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd- circuit/1577369.html>

<comment><USER13> Could you enlighten the audience as to what you believe it says, rather than snarkily just dismissing the reporting as wrong?

<comment><USER14> Maybe just read what it says? Third paragraph ""[i]mportation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under [the Copyright Act], of copies ․ of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the [owner's] exclusive right to distribute copies․"4

How is that ever going to apply to an iPhone - or to ANYTHING sold through an authorized distributor?

<comment><USER15> Hi.

I'm in Australia, I buy my iPhone from an authorised distributor. I then decide to update to an iPhone 2, so I list it on eBay. Someone in the United States purchases the iPhone.

Do I have the authority of Apple to import that phone to the United States? In the absence of explicit terms and conditions, wouldn't this judgment prevent me from delivering the phone?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The article is greatly exaggerating the potential scope of this. The underlying case involved reselling books that were imported without authorization of the copyright holder. When you buy an iPhone, it was NOT imported without authorization of the copyright holder. That's a huge difference.

<comment><USER17> Once you buy something, why would you need the original seller's permission to import it? I find myself personally concerned: I am studying Japanese and there is a paucity of media (books, video, et al) available in Japanese in my country. What might seem reasonable, such as arranging for books to be shipped from Japan, becomes problematic. And when I outgrow basic books, may I sell them to another student? These issues are not contrived, and are not limited to unethical cases. A broad ruling would have potentially harmful effects.

<comment><USER16> I'd guess that in your case, you'd be buying Japanese materials from Japanese publishers, and then having them shipped (possibly by the publisher themselves) to your country, and that these Japanese publishers don't normally sell their materials in your country.

That would not be a problem. To run into the situation at issue in this case, you'd have to be importing back to your country books that a publisher in your country sold in Japan.

The laws restricting imports are generally aimed at curbing grey market goods. When the good you are importing is one that has no "white market" equivalent in your country, you are probably OK.

<comment><USER17> I agree that it _should_ work as you describe. But there's always a danger of courts making a broad ruling. The norm seems to be for content purveyors to push for a broad ruling, as it's in their business interest.

Edit: the particulars of the case in the article are not so interesting to me, excepting how it might impact more legitimate uses of 1st sale. I do not support the defendant's actions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> A related but important case is: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_S.A._v._Costco_Wholesale_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_S.A._v._Costco_Wholesale_Corp).

Costco, through another company, would buy watches abroad from authorized Omega dealers at low prices. Omega, wanting to keep its prices up, sued. Omega's 9th circuit judgement was upheld 4-4 (Kagen removed herself from the judgement). A split judgement means precedent is not created, so Kirtsaeng will help determine precedent as it is a somewhat similar case. (Omega used trademark protections whereas Kirtsaeng is about copyright.)

Point being, there is a strong possibility that this case will be determined in favor of Wiley. I think OP's article exaggerates greatly the effects of such a ruling because supreme court rulings tend to be as narrow as possible. However we won't know the far reaching effects until the ruling comes.

</comment><comment><USER19> How the hell does that fall under _copyright_?

The "only to be sold in country X" effectively tries to be an agreement in which geographic locations certain items can be sold. No copies are involved and no copies are made. Copyright controls, well, the right to make copies. Reselling shouldn't have anything to do with copyright.

(Note that those warnings that try to be artificial restrictions are deep from the arse. They deliberately try to prevent the market from working for the benefit of one company.)

<comment><USER20> Copyright includes the right to decide whether copies will be sold at all. That right traditionally ends, for any given copy, once that copy has been sold for the first time, which is the first-sale doctrine.

The quirk in this case is that it's dealing with things which had been legally sold... but not in the United States, and the doctrine is actually that the right to control sale of copies ends at the _first authorized sale that occurs in the United States_ , not at the first sale that occurs anywhere in the world.

Since the textbooks were purchased elsewhere and then imported, they had not undergone a first sale in the US, and so US first-sale doctrine had not ended the copyright holder's right to control sale.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> If the "Eastern Economy Edition" (EEE) prints of textbooks are similar to the ones that Kirtsaeng sold on ebay, the books may have a sale restriction based on region - a clause on the book that says something like "this book may only be sold <here> and <there>".

Kirtsaeng probably violated that clause ... if it was present. If that was the case, it may be interpreted as copyright violation, I think, if there is considerable monetary impact on the copyright owner on account of such a resale.

The article presents the case as a general assault on resale, but I believe it may be judged more along the lines of "does such resale prevent the copyright holder from financially benefiting from the artifact?" If I hold _one_ EEE copy of a textbook that I sell on ebay, the financial impact to the publisher is insignificant than if I mass imported EEE copies for sale in the US. Though the sale act is the same in both these cases, I think only the mass sale may count as copyright violation. Perhaps I'm dreaming, but it doesn't look like the general ability of people to sell their stuff second hand (bought wherever) is likely on the table here at all.

(I'm not a lawyer. Just speculating about what aspects of copyright might be involved.)

<comment><USER22> > _it may be interpreted as copyright violation_ //

This hinges on the "first sale" doctrine and what's called "exhaustion of rights". The idea is that once you've sold an object under copyright you've exhausted (ended) your financial rights to that object and so it can be resold, lent, etc. without your permission.

IMO an attempt to create a regional sale restriction to overload copyright should be treated with contempt and the copyright should be rescinded. Copyright is [supposedly] granted by the state on behalf of the citizens/subjects afterall; such attempts to extend the rightsholders rights at the expense of the public should be limited.

IIRC cases of this kind in the UK have been challenged under trademark law, where selling of "grey imports" of Levi jeans - for example - have been prevented as the producers (or their local agents) have argued successfully for trademark violation / passing-off.

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import>

Parallel imports are like off-shoring for consumers.

<comment><USER23> > Copyright is [supposedly] granted by the state on behalf of the > citizens/subjects afterall; such attempts to extend the rightsholders rights > at the expense of the public should be limited.

Note how this argument clearly fails to apply across national borders where there is no common "state".

<comment><USER24> Yeah, maybe cross-border copyright shouldn't even exist... I don't see anything in the constitution about enforcing international copyright law within the United States. And even if it is part of an agreement with another country, it still can't violate the constitution, so the imported IP laws still have to encourage creation, right? Or are we not textualists? :-)

Frankly, I don't really care whether it's legal/constitutional or not. I'm more worried about whether it's a good idea. And if free trade is a good idea, then I see no problem with what the defendant did.

So Wiley charges more in Thailand, big deal. That just means that the Thai publishing industry will have more of an advantage.

Markets are (in theory) dynamic all the time, not just when it is convenient for the big boys.

<comment><USER22> > _so the imported IP laws still have to encourage creation_ //

International treaties [arguably] do this by providing access for local producers of works to an international market. If you're a major media exporter then gaining protection in other states is going to be a net benefit even though you have to agree to protect foreign works to do that.

> _if free trade is a good idea, then I see no problem with what the defendant > did_ //

It's a big "if". Are there any states that truly stand behind free trade?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> How would this affect your right to give stuff away?

For example, say I bought a car with copyrighted software or logos or whatever in it. Due to this court ruling on the first sale doctrine, and EULA saying my license was nontransferable, I wouldn't be able to sell or give it to anyone else without the copyright holder's permission.

Say I couldn't obtain that permission -- I didn't have enough money, or they went out of business and nobody was sure who owned the copyright, or it was simply too complicated for an ordinary person to figure out who owns all the copyrights to the firmware in all the different microcontrollers -- radio, engine, steering, antilock brakes, etc. EDIT: Or maybe the copyright holder simply refused, saying "the rights are not for sale at any price" or saying "one TRILLION dollars."

Does that then mean that I can't sell the car or give it away either? That I have to leave it rusting in my yard forever when it stops working, I can't even give it to a wrecker?

EDIT: Also, any local or state laws against leaving cars to rust in your yard are now null and void, since getting rid of such cars would require people to violate federal copyright law. (When there's a conflict like this, I'm pretty sure the Constitution says federal law wins.)

<comment><USER26> This doesn't affect any normal person's right to resell their car, unless they personally arranged for the import of the car against the wishes of the IP owner of the car.

<comment><USER27> Which has been done frequently in the past with gray-market auto imports.

<comment><USER28> I suspect in most of those cases, the car manufacturer chooses not to import the car because of regulatory issues or because it doesn't think there's a large enough market for that type of car in a given country. Car manufacturers generally don't care about such sales.

The grey market sales various businesses _do_ object to usually have to do with geographic price segmentation. It doesn't seem ethical to me for governments to help companies protect that business model.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This will never fly, at least not to the extent the article suggests. It would simultaneously cripple the economy and make everyone an outlaw. It might actually cause a political uprising. It would be madness.

Some watered-down version that only applies when you buy something solely to resell it in another market, maybe. I'd still oppose that, though.

<comment><USER30> The first grandma with some connections they arrest for having a garage sale will be the end of it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm surprised more people don't take Wiley (and all the other textbook publishers) to task for their price-gouging ways. Instead of going after the kid who found a good arbitrage opportunity, maybe they ought to reexamine their pricing models.

<comment><USER23> Yeah, when Wiley stops selling discounted editions in Asia, good will have finally triumphed over evil.

<comment><USER16> I can definitely see why Wiley is concerned. I've seen some editions for Asia or India that are cheap crap--bad enough that I'd rather buy the US edition because I like to keep my books and the foreign crap will fall apart after a couple reads. Sure, many people would buy the cheap editions and put up with the crap, but a lot of people would avoid them.

The Wiley foreign editions are not like those. When my Wiley copies of Apostol's "Calculus" volumes I and II started falling apart after 30 years of being my goto books when I needed to refresh my memory of calculus, I bought the Indian paperback editions. The pages are a little smaller than the US hardback and a little lower quality, but the binding is well done, all the material is there, and they were about $30 each (with shipping) compared to $200/each for the hardbacks.

If the Wiley Indian editions were readily available in the US, there would be almost no reason to buy the US edition, at least for textbooks like Apostol, where there are no color diagrams.

It was interesting that the total price, books + shipping, was about the same no matter where they were bought from. I could have bought from an India seller for about $5, with $25 shipping, or from US importers for about $25, with $5 shipping. I think I did find a couple Indian and Chinese sellers where I could have saved maybe $5 overall, but no way was I giving my credit card to a seller on the other side of the world that I could find no reviews of anywhere online.

BTW, those hardbacks in 1977 cost about the same as the paperbacks 30 years later. In hindsight, it would have been a good investment in 1977 to buy a bunch of copies, and resell them 30 years later. (And yes, there would be a market for them 30 years later. These books, in the same edition I bought in 1977, are still used at Caltech, MIT, and in the "honors" calculus classes at a few other top schools).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> _In August 2011, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit upheld a lower court's ruling that anything that was manufactured overseas is not subject to the first-sale principle. Only American-made products or "copies manufactured domestically" were._

It would seem if the sum of foreign made products makes a new product, you would still need the permission of original manufacturers to resell it. Wonder if that could be stretched far enough to say foreign food spices at restaurants can no longer be used.

<comment><USER33> This law wouldn't apply to spices since there are no intellectual property rights involved in that product. (The "prior art" for grinding peppercorns probably dates back thousands of years.)

A better example might be a car that's manufactured in the U.S. but contains many parts that are manufactured abroad.

However, even if the courts upheld the lack of a first-sale doctrine on foreign goods, there would be risks for companies to assert these rights. For example, if Toyota demanded a cut of every resale of one of their cars, it would immediately lower the value of any Toyota relative to a U.S.-made car, since the resale value of a car is a significant part of its total cost of ownership. If this practice became widespread, the outcry would force Congress to pass laws to put an end to it (at very little political risk, since the losers would be in foreign countries).

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> In 2011 Louisiana passed a law prohibiting using cash for selling or buying used goods.

</comment><comment><USER35> Doesn't make much sense to me. What would prevent people from giving away 2 gifts,one of item one of money, or a giving away to a 3rd party as escrows?

<comment><USER26> As a general matter, judges get fed up with petty shenanigans pretty quick.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> That's not copyright infringement, that's arbitrage.

</comment><comment><USER37> There's approximately a zero percent chance that this appellate ruling will be upheld.

</comment><comment><USER38> > _Your right to resell your own stuff is in peril_

Or you can see it in a positive light, as:

1) You are free from forever owning lots of stuff (which ends up owning you in the end, see Hoarders). You just rent stuff.

2) The economy gets a nice boost from people buying the stuff again, instead of getting it in a re-sale.

<comment><USER29> >> The economy gets a nice boost from people buying the stuff again, instead of getting it in a re-sale.

No, this is not a boost. This is a tremendous, horrible loss of value.

Imagine people throwing away furniture, crushing cars, and burning books because they can't be sold. This is value being destroyed.

Please read up on the "broken window fallacy." There is a difference between spending to create value and spending to replace destroyed value. The latter makes everyone poorer.

<comment><USER38> > _Imagine people throwing away furniture, crushing cars, and burning books > because they can't be sold. This is value being destroyed._

It's "use value" being destroyed, not "economic value".

This is the reason why economies get a huge boost after a war: because stuff has to be bought again, infrastructures have to be re-built, etc... (the well- being of the society is taken back, of course, but economy itself, i.e levels of employment and development rise, because forces before non utilized (unemployed people, savings, etc) have to be utilized. And the disturbed status quo brings up opportunities for growth in areas stifled before by established players.

> _Please read up on the "broken window fallacy."_

I'm not making the same argument.

With a good such as an e-book, if you could read it and then re-sale it, then there would just be one copy sold by the parent company. If it could be resold even more, then from one original buyer you could get 10 meta-buyers, all of them not giving a penny to the author.

(And those are not pirates, in which case you wouldn't know if they would have bought it if they couldn't get it for free. Those are actual buyers).

So, in essence, the author loses 1/average_resales. That might be good for other companies and the economy in general (as per the "broken window fallacy"), but it's not for the PARTICULAR industry under discussion.

Heck, the author might be financially forced to give up writing altogether, all the while enough people to sustain him _enjoy_ and _pay_ for his book.

<comment><USER39> If you're going to consider that the author "looses" a sale because of a resold, used physical book (which was the original subject, not ebooks), then you should factor in the losses due to not allowing resales at all \- because such books are much riskier investments and are less likely to be bought in the first place, especially if they are technical books with non-trivial prices. I've convinced myself to buy many a book because I knew I could resell them easily and legally if I didn't like them.

<comment><USER40> This is similar to videogames resale (Another area under heavy attack by the publishing industry).

If a title is middling, but not great, people will still buy it, and hope to sell it for cash or store credit once "done". They will experiment with games they're not certain about because they're not "Stuck" with the original.

People who aren't willing to take the risk that the game is worth full price can then buy the resold version at a lower price later. They take a "Newness" and time premium, but save money.

If resale isn't possible, fewer people will buy the original game because it's a riskier proposition. This means both that there are less primary sales, but ALSO that there are less people discussing the game (They've not played it, they can't talk about it). People who would have bought the game secondhand, possibly liked it and been encouraged to buy the next title by the same developers firsthand simply won't buy it, so there's even LESS word of mouth.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>