Instacart is slashing prices as the war against Amazon heats up - <AUTHOR> https://www.businessinsider.com/instacart-cheaper-than-amazon-whole-foods-delivery-2018-11 <comment><USER2> It's funny, as a Canadian, Amazon is its own worst enemy.

Hitherto there weren't many competitors that could match, or even compete with, Amazon's stock and delivery speed. Walmart is close, as is Costco, but Amazon is where it's at.

For quite some time Prime was... Not a good value for us. Then we got Video and Music, to a certain extent, and it's a fair value if the content you want is there.

But the problem, and why myself and many peers have cancelled prime and started shopping elsewhere, is that the basis of trust in the quality of their stock has fallen away completely. The amount of garbage with four stars or more is scandalous, and the likelihood of receiving a knock off product is too high. Opening a box to find a product similar to but different from what you intended to buy is all too common.

Amazon, get your shit together before you irreparably harm your brand.

<comment><USER3> Your experience with review gaming is fairly universal, it's not specific to Canada. Amazon reviews are fundamentally untrustable at this point, to the point there are multiple startups providing 'fake or not' services for them.

I've stopped buying anything from Amazon about two years ago. When you start to price compare, you realise how bad of a deal Amazon has become real quick. For the majority of the stuff I was buying, Amazon prime was marginally more expensive. For a minority of them, it was substantially (30%+) more expensive, and _I had no idea_.

<comment><USER4> I use a comparator plugin and I never have this experience. I spend probably at least $1000 a month on Amazon between personal and business and the difference in savings is negligible at best from switching to various other sites from Amazon (most of the time Amazon is the cheapest price).

Prime shipping has been annoying to my residence because I live in Seattle and they use contractors which often just fuck things up for same-day delivery, but it's never longer than 2 days. Almost no other site can match that speed and convenience, which is the real reason any of use Prime.

If I saw the same 30% overcharging phenomenon people keep talking about on HN, I'd probably consider switching. But it is well under 5% and probably ~0%, honestly, and the value of my time and efficiency of shopping online is worth quite a bit to me.

<comment><USER2> Which plugin?

<comment><USER4> There's tons; Wikibuy, Honey, etc, etc. I use Honey but I've used a bunch and the results are generally the same. The paranoia inflicted upon me by HN crowd saying I'm overpaying on Amazon by 30% makes me investigate all these claims and I just find them all to be completely false in my case.

I'm not saying people don't have these experiences, but I don't. And even if I did for like 5% or something, the shopping experience on Amazon is 10x better than Walmart.com or Target.com (where it's more like 100x), and that isn't worth nothing. It's like patio11 insisting that basis points fees aren't worth arguing over on Stripe when you are infinitely more productive using Stripe's developer kit vs. Authorize.net or any other terrible gateway, and people everywhere on HN claim how expensive Stripe is and how you can save money and don't factor in even a very conservative estimate on labor hours for a C-level exec or a manager in a company.

It doesn't take much time saved or annoyances avoided for a high-level executive to make a small price difference be completely irrelevant. And that's what Amazon has mostly done.

<comment><USER5> Is it possible GP meant 30% more for a prime-compatible listing compared to a non-prime listing?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Prediction, instacart go bust in the next 36 months. What I have learned after nearly 2 decades in sales is that if an organisation needs to drop their prices to compete with a larger, more cashed up competitor, then their value proposition is comparably weak and certainly not sufficient to carry them in its current form over the long term.

<comment><USER7> "It has also removed the 5% service fee for its Express members, a charge that caused much controversy among customers in the past."

This was pretty much my only qualm. I'm heading back to Instacart. Pound-for- pound, it was a better product. More personal service, better shoppers and they were slowly getting better at keeping the inventory databases more up-to- date.

On that last point, they have a tough fight as Amazon integrates deeply with Whole Foods. It really breaks your product if a significant percentage of the groceries you order isn't actually in stock.

I have Amazon Prime and still paid for Instacart.

<comment><USER4> > More personal service, better shoppers

But will this survive with price slashes? Quality almost never stays the same (or improves) when you get into a price war.

<comment><USER8> Instacart shoppers are pissed - this drop in fees coincides with an adjusted payout for shoppers.

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/11/20/workers_a...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/11/20/workers_at_instacart_planned_a_no_delivery_day_strike.html)

<comment><USER9> It also coincides with them raising a crapload of money (hundreds of millions iirc) at a significantly higher valuation than they had a couple of years ago.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Haha. I moved to NYC this year. I used Instacart for months, because I'd have to sign up for another service to use something else, and they mostly seemed equivalent, and I may even have had some YC-brand-loyalty, even though I was quite unhappy at times with Instacart.

Instacart will often allow me to order more of something than is in stock, because they have no real concept of "in stock". For any order of more than 5-6 types of items, chances a very good that something will be missing, so you can't rely on them for tonight's dinner -- instead, you have to order the night before so that you have time to stop by the store yourself on the way home from work the night you want to make the meal requiring all of those ingredients, to get the thing(s) they allowed you to select but "couldn't find".

I have placed orders through Instacart which didn't happen at all because they "couldn't find" anything in the order and it was all do-not-replace.

I have placed an order through Instacart mid-day which was shopped, and then delayed until my SO finally called them, whereupon she was told it would be the next morning, but not to worry, everything had already been shopped, and had been put in temperature controlled holding! But then the next day most of the order was refunded before a few things were delivered, because the shopper "couldn't find them".

Instacart will commonly put frozen food, bags of chips, dish soap, and 2L sodas in the same bag together, and then roll the dice on whether things are crushed, too warm, or otherwise came to ruin.

I may have a lot of anger built up at Instacart.

Although I've also become increasingly disgruntled with Amazon, at least I was already signed up with Prime, so I decided a couple weeks ago to try PrimeNow. I don't think I've used Instacart since.

I cannot stress how different the experience was:

When ordering from Amazon (not the individual grocers), PrimeNow wouldn't let me order more 2L sodas of my usual brand/flavor than were in stock.

When I ordered something crushable, it was in a separate bag, and uncrushed.

When I ordered something frozen, _they put an icepack in with it_.

Instacart slashing prices is laughable. Price is not their main problem. I would gladly pay twice as much, if only I could count on them, but as it is, it's possible now that I'll never again use Instacart.

<comment><USER11> My wife and I live in Minneapolis and our experience over the past 2 years has been basically the same as yours, expect with the companies reversed.

Instacart has been generally top notch in their logistics and customer service. Small issues now and then, but rectified quickly and pro-actively.

Amazon PrimeNow and their Amazon restaurant delivery has been a total mess. Cancelled orders hours after placing them, unexplained delivery glitches where a courier attempts a delivery and leaves with all the merchandise if we don't answer the door knock immediately, etc.

I'm not shy in letting customer service know when there are problems and even the refund process is a mess - we've had charges refunded 3, 4, 5 times (like I spend $100 and they end up refunding me $300 dollars!). Tried to explain to Amazon and get in to crazy unintelligible email threads with offshore service centers.

Finally just gave up on the whole thing with them. Will try again in a couple years and see if things have improved.

<comment><USER12> I'm glad you two posted your experiences and it's really useful seeing them side by side.

It speaks to how difficult logistics like this truly is and how difficult it is to not only scale the service but scale the quality consistently across very different geographic regions working with very different grocers, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> In the UK, all of the traditional supermarket chains moved pretty early to build their own online grocery platforms. The services are all generally pretty good. They seem to have successfully made that transition and kept most of the grocery market for themselves (with the exception of Ocado, the online- only service, which I guess is a slightly weirder example due to their supply arrangements with one of the existing chains). As such, I can't really imagine anyone else entering the market, or Amazon being an effective competitor. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone using the Amazon service here.

Is there some obvious reason the same kind of market change didn't happen in the US?

<comment><USER3> Same in Turkey as well, Migros and Carrefour kept the market to themselves by offering delivery fast, early. Migros had an online grocery store in 2000, even! That's early.

I think US is uniquely suited to such a thing because of its sheer size. A supermarket company that has not built effectively a parallel supply chain cannot accommodate allowing a guy from New York and a guy from San Francisco to shop using the same stock, especially if perishable, because there is no profitable way to ship something from CA to NY in a few days. That effectively means CA and NY are, so far as groceries go, completely independent markets, and that creates challenges that being a supermarket does not inherently give an advantage in handling.

In contrast, UK or Turkey are countries that are sized small enough that a lorry can cross in a day, given the need. That allows you to act like you have a 'supermarket' in the middle of the country, and you're taking orders by the phone, and sending them to their way. That mental model is much easier to handle for a supermarket chain than doing continental-scale logistics that Amazon is adept at.

<comment><USER14> I'm not convinced thats the reason, because that isn't how the online grocery stores in the UK work: from my recollection, you're effectively shopping from your local store and the options reflect that.

<comment><USER3> Interesting to hear. In Turkey, they ship to the whole country for most types of goods. Effectively treat the whole country as a single locale. With few exceptions for things like eggs, milk, I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Everyone knows you should never get involved in a land war in Asia, never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line, and most importantly, never get involved in a price war with Amazon.

<comment><USER16> Is that really the case? Most of Amazon's offerings from what I can see are priced at a premium. AWS is much pricier than competitors, and the physical goods they sell (at least here in Europe) are either on par or more expensive than dedicated European online stores, let alone Aliexpress/Banggood/Gearbest/etc. In the UK/Ireland at least, the main attraction from Amazon is convenience - for those items that are available with Amazon Prime, the shipping is much faster than competitors. Beyond those however, I've honestly had better deals and faster shipping with eBay.

<comment><USER17> The thing is that Amazon is so big and has so many other profitable lines of business that, if they want to, they can swallow losses on the one that happens to compete with you for as long as it takes to choke you out. You can try to keep up with that, but since you're not as big and diversified as they are, you will inevitably fail. What to them is just a paper cut will be more than deep enough to bleed you white.

(They'll raise the prices once they've driven out enough competition to assume a dominant position in the sector, of course, but that will come too late to do you any good.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> What advantage would instacart have over amazon? Outside of being the first mover.

</comment><comment> Fire-Dragon-DoL I still buy from Amazon, however since I moved to Canada I was quite disappointed:

In Italy you get (from amazon), 2 years warranty on every product (yes I returned a phone that died on me at 1 year and 8 months old, factory problem), prime costs 40 bucks rather than 90 and the product quality is higher because there are various local products on it. The canadian one is very messy, has all the downsides of the u.s. one but none of the benefits (e. g. No family view, wtf).

Still, support is great

</comment><comment><USER19> I guess the get a lot of customers through the whole foods channel. I would think that diversifying to Trader Joes, Costco, Walmart, Target etc... would help them.

<comment><USER20> Target has target restock and such?

I found the proposition fairly attractive, I just wish they added fresh grocery for target.

<comment><USER19> Some targets sell grocery.

<comment><USER20> They do, but target restock doesn't seem to deliver fresh grocery, just the dry stuff.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The article didn't lay out exactly how instacart is now cheaper.

Does it factor in the 5% whole foods discount you get from being a prime member?

</comment><comment><USER22> It is my first time hearing of Instacart. Are they that popular to the extend that they deserve comparison to Amazon?

<comment><USER23> You're probably not living in the US

<comment><USER24> I live in the USA and while I had heard the name "instacart" I didn't remember what it was and had to look it up. I don't live near a major city though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Is this true? Instacart actually just raised prices a week or two ago.</comment>


Apple Now Has $203B in Cash on Hand - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/21/apple-now-has-203-billion-in-cash-on-hand/

<comment><USER2> That's a lot. I saw this.

[http://blog.instavest.com/Infographic-What-Can-Apple-Buy- Wit...](http://blog.instavest.com/Infographic-What-Can-Apple-Buy- With-203-Billion)</comment>


Nacker Hews - <AUTHOR> http://www.nackerhews.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Stumbled across this when doing a web search on my username.

</comment><comment><USER2> My favorite satire along this line is n-gate [1]

[1] - [http://n-gate.com/](http://n-gate.com/)</comment>


The Internet of Bodies (IoB) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3827&context=wmlr <comment><USER2> Afternoon Cyber Tea just had a two part interview on IoB stuff, that was the first time I'd heard of this phrase. It's pretty interesting:

[https://www.podcastone.com/episode/The-Internet-of-Bodies- Hu...](https://www.podcastone.com/episode/The-Internet-of-Bodies-Human- Potential-and-Security-Pitfalls-Part-1)</comment>


Apple will start assembling its premium iPhone models in India - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/27/18157565/apple-expensive-iphone-x-models-assembly-india-tariffs <comment><USER2> Pricing plays a pivotal role in purchasing decisions in India. Additionally paid apps aren't a huge driver. That shifts more focus to hardware specs and features the local market cares about (dual-sim, uSD card slot, FM Radio).

iPhone XR - Apple's _cheapest_ offering - clocks in at a cool $750. For that dough, there's no dual-sim, uSD or FM Radio - things valued in India. Compare that to something like a Xiaomi Mix 3 starting at $550. It's packed full of hardware features [3] and sports the latest Android, with an impressive DXO mark rating for the camera [1], that is higher than the iPhone Xr [2]!!

Even if Apple's brand mileage gains it a few new followers, I'd call it an extremely uphill battle for them to be relevant in India at the Price:Features game they're playing.

[1]: [https://www.dxomark.com/xiaomi-mi-mix-3-camera- review/](https://www.dxomark.com/xiaomi-mi-mix-3-camera-review/)

[2]: [https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-xr-camera- review/](https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-xr-camera-review/)

[3]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykib2NjKtA0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykib2NjKtA0)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is the same idea as Hondas assembled in Pakistan from knock down kits to avoid a import tariff. I doubt any of the parts will actually be made in India, they'll be importing the pieces and hiring workers to do the manual assembly.

[https://www.pakwheels.com/blog/cbu-skd-ckd- vehicles/](https://www.pakwheels.com/blog/cbu-skd-ckd-vehicles/)

<comment><USER4> Are people just not buying the cars smuggled through the tribal areas from Dubai anymore? Has Honda stopped dumping old models on the Pak market?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> While maybe not admitting so this is an excellent hedge against the Apple doomsday scenario: trade war goes full vindictive. China already sees that it has with ZTE and Huawei. If China threw Apple out of China just to spite us a trillion dollars of equity could vanish.

Smart move I think.

<comment><USER6> The CPC will never do anything to materially harm Apple because their only real concern is their continued rule of China. Assembly of Apple products employs hundreds of thousands of workers and having that many people unemployed and angry is a threat to their regime. Not to mention the immediate capital flight that would occur, irreparably damaging FDI in China. This political juice Apple has is the same reason why iMessage and FaceTime aren't blocked in China, despite being end-to-end encrypted.

Apple is assembling in India for the same reason they assemble in Brazil, to satisfy protectionist policies.

<comment><USER5> An iPhone not bought is a Huawei phone that is. As for iMessage and all that Apple has an agreement to host special China iCloud services. Without American soybeans China just mandates less protein in feed. As if biological machinery doesn't care about politics.

And of course there will be capital flight, no question.

Can't do business with a country you are in territorial squabbles with or an all out war. IBM not withstanding of course..

<comment><USER6> >An iPhone not bought is a Huawei phone that is

People outside of China aren't going to buy Huawei phones, partly because Huawei is being banned from western nations as we speak. Android phones are not really substitutes for iPhones, customers demand iPhones specifically so that doesn't really make sense.

>As for iMessage and all that Apple has an agreement to host special China iCloud services.

China mandates data localization for Chinese user data, that doesn't change anything about iMessage and FaceTime's end-to-end encryption.

>Without American soybeans China just mandates less protein in feed. As if biological machinery doesn't care about politics.

When China stops buying soybeans from the US, it hurts American farmers. They are substituting them with soybeans from Brazil. But harming Apple isn't just harming American interests, it also harms their own. That's why Apple is pretty safe from any retaliation.

<comment><USER5> Divorce gets real vindictive real fast</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Fork the Economy - <AUTHOR> http://www.rushkoff.com/fork-the-economy-2/ <comment><USER2> Here is the argument in a nutshell (if I read it right): (1) The economy not really working that great even though it is working as intended. So it cannot be fixed, because it is not broken (2) For businesses to create new value, they need money. It used to be that they could make their own money, get moving themselves, but now things are dominated by bank lending. (3) Bank lending relies on continual economic expansion to work. (4) But economic growth is going to plateau, due to lack of new things to exploit (i.e. situation similar to lack of new countries for the Roman Empire to expand into). (5) There are alternative money systems that let people create things without bank domination. (6) The political Left is not savvy to this. If you want change you should push for support for alternative money and vote for such candidates.

It is hard to get what people are on about when it comes to anti-bank sentiment. But then again, one could say the same about free software. Seems like the kind of thing where one has to do a bit of their own research and their own thinking.</comment>


Why open offices are the answer, but only for now - <AUTHOR> http://behavioralscientist.org/open-offices-answer-now/ <comment><USER2> If you think "open offices" are the right answer, you're asking the wrong question.</comment>


Microsoft Accidentally Asks Google to Censor News Sites, US Government - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2012/10/07/microsoft-accidentally-asked-google-to-censor-bbc-cbs-cnn-wikipedia-and-even-the-us-government/ <comment><USER2> It was my understanding that there are intended to be severe repercussions involved for filing a false DMCA takedown request, and that part of the filing process involves someone signing off that it has been personally reviewed and thus is believed to be accurate.

Those checks are supposed to be in place to prevent exactly this, spidering the web for any hint of infringement and firing off a DMCA without even looking at the target first. Clearly that is exactly what has happened here, and the legal response should be swift and uncompromising.

<comment><USER3> I don't believe anyone has ever been punished for misfiling. Part of the problem is that you have to show that it was not filed by mistake, which is pretty hard to prove.

<comment><USER4> That would seem to make it a very bad idea to do any double-checking before sending one out, since the more checks you do, the easier someone could argue that you didn't screw up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'd like to see a fine issued for each mistaken DMCA takedown. Currently there's no incentive for IP owners not to carpet bomb the web with frequently- erroneous takedowns.

</comment><comment><USER6> The Bing example linked inside is even funnier.</comment>


Did Tech Really Save the Obama Campaign? - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06/did-hipster-technology-really-save-the-obama-campaign/

<comment><USER2> Obama won because he had a better message. Tech was a great multiplier, but ultimately not the core reason for success. If the message sucked, it would not win no matter how hard it was pushed.

</comment><comment><USER3> Dead voters.</comment>


Tamil Nadu state departments asked to switch over to open source software - <AUTHOR> http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/tn-state-departments-asked-to-switch-over-to-open-source-software/article5799039.ece <comment><USER4> A number of comments here are pointing out the considerable barriers to migration away from Microsoft based systems; back end systems; file compatibility with MS Office formats; training needs for significantly different interfaces on a 'desktop' system.

The UK govts recent suggestion that we require open formats _may_ begin to address one of those issues [1]. The move to more recent browser mediated applications _might_ mitigate another. A new generation will have grown up with _devices_ that probably don't run Windows [2] and that _might_ reduce the training issues associated with UI changes.

Can I turn the question round: how many decades do we think that the default systems for large enterprises and governments will be provided by Microsoft?

And if a country as huge as India with a developed IT workforce of the kind India has decides to start a migration programme, the resulting pool of skilled people and working software (GPL Licensed software) would make future migrations that much easier. I personally wish the UK had a Munich or two simply so we can develop the skills here.

[1] [http://opensource.com/government/14/2/uk-government-open- sta...](http://opensource.com/government/14/2/uk-government-open-standards)

[2] [http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2014/03/21/microsoft_sorgen...](http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2014/03/21/microsoft_sorgen_intelligent_devices/)

<comment><USER5> There have actually been quite a few public organizations that have migrated to Linux: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters)

<comment><USER4> Ctrl-F and UK reveals no UK based examples on that pager. Alas. Once again, we risk missing out on a potential new market.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Having spent some time in India dealing with scattered govt. Windows infrastructure, this is amazing news. This may also open up many new opportunities in computer education and literacy which is very deficient in the country. I really hope this switch does happen.

<comment><USER7> Some of the best hackers I know are in India, and they don't use Microsoft products... I'm talking truly gifted people.

I myself am a BSD fanatic, but I recommend Linux based systems to all of my Windows using friends.

<comment><USER8> This might be because you are an Indian and the only hackers you know are Indian.

<comment><USER4> Which I read as the point that the parent post was making: India can 'pull itself up by its bootstraps' by using the pool of Linux/BSD oriented developers to help a large scale migration project thus further developing the skills base.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Slightly off note, but any movement by the Indian government should be appreciated, considering how much inertia they have :) More on the topic - <USER2> back in 1995 when CD-ROM drives became affordable and popular in India [1], I expected Linux to thrive in the country considering how nobody, especially students and enthusiasts, had the money to buy legit copies of Windows. Sadly that never happened. At least the universities could have done their bit to teach and promote Linux, but they too didn't.

[1] Internet connections were so slow that it was impossible for most people to download a Linux distro on off the internet. But there were a lot of computer magazines distributing various Linux distros on CDs for a Rs. 100 or thereabout.

<comment><USER10> > Internet connections were so slow that it was impossible for most people to > download a Linux distro on off the internet. But there were a lot of > computer magazines distributing various Linux distros on CDs for a Rs. 100 > or thereabout.

As a teenager, the only Internet access I could afford was Netzero. Any time I had $13 to spare, I'd head to Books-a-Million and buy a copy of the Linux Format, if only so I could upgrade my Linux partition. Good times :) Do Linux mags still come with discs?

<comment><USER11> Not only in India but even present day UK magazines (e.g. Linux Format) come with DVDs.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Not many people know this but Linux is already quite popular in the South (esp. in schools and government offices)

<comment><USER13> In particular, the Department of General Education of the state of Kerala (more than 12,000 schools, about 6 million students, and about 200,000 teachers [1]) heavily promotes FOSS software both as a medium of teaching (all subjects, not just ICT) and as a tool for administration. This initiative is called the "IT@School Project" [2], and they develop and use their own customized version of Ubuntu (called "IT@School GNU/Linux" [3]) in all their schools. They do quite a bit of customization to adapt available FOSS software to the needs of their audience (which is drawn from all strata of society; this is (almost) free and compulsory education provided by the state).

The project uses customized FOSS software, such as Dr. Geo, Rasmol, K-Tech lab, Geogebra, Chemtool, and Kalcium [4], to teach various subjects. They also have ICT as a separate subject starting from Class 4 (9-year olds). As part of this, they start teaching programming (in Python, and using games, graphics, and other age-appropriate methods, and starting _very_ gently) from Class 4. (They also teach a lot of other stuff.)

The project implements a lot of e-governance programs using FOSS software. This includes [4]:

1\. A single-window admission system for higher-secondary education

2\. Computerization of the program of providing free lunch in schools

3\. Online transfer and posting of teachers

4\. Software for administering the state's annual Youth Festival (Arts competitions. Around 10,000 participants this year, often touted as Asia's largest such event.)

5\. ERP software for arts festivals at the school level.

6\. Software for administering scholarships

7\. Centralised online textbook intend system

8\. Payroll administration for teachers and other staff in the department

9\. Software for monitoring physical fitness programmes in schools

(In case you are wondering: every school is provided a (paid-for) broadband connection as well.)

They estimate that the shift to FOSS has saved the state quite a bit of money already [5]:

"The Project has supplied thousands of computers and laptops to schools in the state. about 50,000 computers to schools. The proprietary OS and other application software come with a price tag of about Rs. 10,000/\- per PC. By deploying Free Software based Operating System and applications instead of Proprietary software , IT@School Project is able to save an amount of Rs.11 Crores (Rs. 110 million) each year. Also the Educational content like interactive multimedia CDs are now being developed on free software platform, resulting in a savings of Rs. 75 lakhs (Rs. 7.5 million). The examination software which was developed using free software has effected in a savings of about Rs. 25 lakhs (Rs. 2.5 millon)."

[1] [https://www.itschool.gov.in/glance.php](https://www.itschool.gov.in/glance.php)

[2] [https://www.itschool.gov.in/](https://www.itschool.gov.in/)

[3] [https://www.itschool.gov.in/downloads.php](https://www.itschool.gov.in/downloads.php)

[4] [https://www.itschool.gov.in/activities.php](https://www.itschool.gov.in/activities.php)

[5] [https://www.itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6](https://www.itschool.gov.in/otherprograms.php#6)

(Edit: Minor fixes, formatting.)

<comment><USER14> Dr. Geo! - [http://www.drgeo.eu/home](http://www.drgeo.eu/home). Go (Pharo) Smalltalk!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> For people wondering about BOSS linux, it is Debian based, and is bundled with LibreOffice, Gnome, Iceweasel (browser) etc. the usual stuff and is distributed by CDAC Chennai. CDAC Chennai adds value to the distro by providing support (they have a toll free number where anyone call for any doubts in relation to BOSS), ensuring all the drivers of local printers are present, local fonts are all set up and working right from the beginning. They also provide training when any govt. department switches to BOSS.

Source - I worked in CDAC Chennai and was involved in a project related to BOSS, and quite a few depts. were switching to BOSS while I was there (2 yrs back)

</comment><comment><USER16> Whenever these stories appear it seems impossible to tell if they're genuine or just trolling Microsoft to try to get a better deal.

<comment><USER14> Yes. You'd think that they would have moved to open source already if they could. Impending end of support for XP was no secret nor unexpected.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Aside from the city of Munich, are their any other governments that are using Linux as their main operating system?

<comment><USER18> North Korea.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Star_OS)

<comment><USER19> Even North Korea, they're still training them on office/windows:

[http://imgur.com/lQQGjyu](http://imgur.com/lQQGjyu)

(taken in a school in pyongsong, autumn last year)

<comment><USER20> This is probably just to make it look like they do learn stuff on computers, but the level of poverty in NK is so appalling I doubt they have computers in most schools.

<comment><USER21> Oh, most people in NK never get a sniff of a computer. But it has some animation and IT-outsourcing businesses which are no doubt a nice little foreign-currency earner for the government:

[http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/8242/north-korea-needs- set...](http://www.koreaittimes.com/story/8242/north-korea-needs-set- practical-it-training-and-certification-systems)

[http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906219,00...](http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906219,00.html)

[http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/8/153816-inside-the- hermi...](http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/8/153816-inside-the-hermit- kingdom/fulltext) (A¢M paywalled)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This may come as a bit skeptical, but IMHO the large scale adaptation of a Linux distro in Indian state departments seems a long way to. The lack of Linux operational training to the personnel along with replacement costs may call for an early demise to the plan to switch to Linux. While it does sound promising, the average government clerk in India, is computer literate in terms of Microsoft Office suite. Replacement of MS Office with Libre/Open Office suite itself is a big hurdle which in terms of usability is still in its early days. In addition, most systems on government offices I've seen run IE8 as their primary browsers, running applications "designed for IE only". I believe that if the switch to a Linux distro is to be made, the government should start with replacing leagcy windows software with their open source, linux compatible counterparts, before making the big move.

<comment><USER23> There are significant training cost assoc with windows 7,8, and later office vers as well. Xubuntu might be closer to XP in many respects.

<comment><USER24> I don't think that is true, especially for Windows 7. But there are other issues to consider. Windows 7 is from 2009 and is still supported until 2020 (!). There is no Linux distribution outside RHEL and probably SLES that provides such long support cycles.

And even the comparison with RHEL is not really fair. New applications will continue to be compatible with Windows 7 for many years, while with RHEL you are mostly stuck with what you get with a particular version. EPEL et al. do provide some relief.

Suggesting that Xubuntu is a viable replacement is disingenuous - <USER3> 12.04 LTS is supported until 2015. Let's take vanilla Ubuntu 12.04 for the sake of the argument. It's supported until 2017. A large organisation will not deploy a new system when it is released (many organisations are migrating to Windows 7 four or five years after the release). So, let's say that they deploy it now. That's only good for three years of support. So, in three years you have to redo the whole migration. Users have to be retrained now for GNOME 2 and in 2017 for Unity. You see where it is going, it is a mess.

Of course, then there is the issue that many existing Windows software doesn't work on Linux, compatibility of LibreOffice with Office documents, etc.

Linux on the enterprise desktop is usually not a viable option, except if you already have good infrastructure to support and maintain it (e.g. Google), or for a subset of users (e.g. developers).

<comment><USER25> > supported until 2020 (!). There is no Linux distribution outside RHEL

The RHEL derivates such as CentOS or Scientific Linux provide such long support.

> that many existing Windows software doesn't work on Linux, compatibility of > LibreOffice with Office documents, etc

There is Wine which allows to run Windows programs on Linux just fine. I am still using Office 2000. Compatibility is also problem with newer Windows and I would say that in long run Linux will be more compatible with WinXP than Windows themselfs. Microsoft seems very eager to drop old functions to boosts its sales.

You are also forgetting that upgrading Linux is usually much easier. MS is changing UI every version and it requires retraining users and administrators.

<comment><USER24> _The RHEL derivates such as CentOS or Scientific Linux provide such long support._

By virtue of Red Hat. If Red Hat goes away, I'd be surprised if they can keep up that commitment. Besides that CentOS is now a Red Hat project.

 _There is Wine which allows to run Windows programs on Linux just fine. I am still using Office 2000._

Now try Office 2013. Last time I tried, not even CrossOver could run new Office versions without serious loss of functionality.

 _MS is changing UI every version and it requires retraining users and administrators._

Windows 7 is very similar to Windows XP. The same can't be said for e.g. GNOME 2 -> Unity or GNOME 2 -> GNOME 3.

<comment><USER26> >By virtue of Red Hat. If Red Hat goes away, I'd be surprised if they can keep up that commitment.

Why would Red Hat be going away?

>Now try Office 2013. Last time I tried, not even CrossOver could run new Office versions without serious loss of functionality.

Libreoffice exists, and is very adequate for a government agencies' typesetting needs.

>Windows 7 is very similar to Windows XP.

Windows 7 is also an old product that is being phased out in favor of 8 and 8.1.

>The same can't be said for e.g. GNOME 2 -> Unity or GNOME 2 -> GNOME 3.

What about GNOME 2 -> MATE or GNOME 2 -> Cinnamon?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Hope "may" changes to "will" in coming future . Not just state departments but infrastructure services here use windows , e.g.: metro stations , ATM machines . Switch can help to save money which can be used in other developments much needed for the society without comprising efficiency of governance.

<comment><USER28> I've seen ATM's being serviced/refilled - one can usually spot a "tower" PC in there. When an ATM app crashes the underlying PC operating system GUI is visible - with the standard screen background.

OTOH my <big bank in India> has good online services, usage pattern monitoring, two-factor authentication etc. With this bank I've never had a single online transaction as much as hang or go wrong in the past 10 years. When I travel I sometimes get a call to verify the transaction I've just made at an ATM.

So the only conclusion I can draw is that the bank finds it easier to monitor/control things from their data center. They probably consider all terminals as vulnerable and operate from that premise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> > "Consider installing BOSS [Bharat Operating System Solutions] Linux as one > of the mandatory operating system,"

It would be good for India to take control over it's own operating system. It would open up their market of software developers. Making the Linux community stronger is another strong benefit for everybody.

</comment><comment><USER30> State of Kerala in India already uses Linux for almost everything. From basic functioning of government offices to computer education in the schools.

</comment><comment><USER31> It's about time. In fact, it's way past time. But don't expect Microsoft to give up without a great deal more fight, a legal challenge or two, and other tactics from their vast playbook.

<comment><USER32> What can they possibly do to prevent the state department to switch to Linux (except bribing some people)?

<comment><USER11> Your "except" is pretty big to be put in "except".

Apart from that, simply resistance from users, who are not really "computer people" and basically know that clicking the "w" icon launches the application on which letters can be drafted, is not a small matter. I hope the training programmes are well planned to cover that aspect.

<comment><USER32> Resistance to change from non "computer people", as you put it, has nothing to do with something Microsoft can do. And concerning the bribery, yes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the main reason linux and free software in general didn't get more adoption.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I know this is completely tangential, but I am hoping someone can enlighten me. What's the best way to think about or explain the prevalence of grammatical errors in the Indian English-language press?

Is it because Indian English is its own distinct dialect or variation with different rules, similar to differences between American and British English?

Is it because English is fundamentally a lingua franca in India where nobody is expected to really master the grammar, including the press?

Is it because the press in India doesn't consider it important? I know in my local press in the US I've seen many more typographical and grammatical errors creep in since newspapers went into decline a few years ago.

Or is there something else explaining it which I have not imagined?

<comment><USER13> If I may ask: Did you find such errors in the linked article? Is this what prompted your question?

"The Hindu" (linked in the post) is one newspaper which takes these things seriously. They even have an "ombudsman" of sorts (whom they call the "Reader's Editor") and they encourage readers to write in to this person pointing out all sorts of mistakes, including grammatical [1].

Constraints of the printed page would also explain some of the "different" language which one finds in newspapers.

[1] [http://www.thehindu.com/navigation/?type=static&page=contact](http://www.thehindu.com/navigation/?type=static&page=contact)

<comment><USER33> I did find some errors in the article, albeit many of them were in the quotes from government communications. My question was prompted by this as well as the experience I've had reading newspapers and magazines in India during visits I've made. The tone and language used in the Indian press is often quite striking when compared to other English language press.

Many of the errors were in the quotes, but there are some in the article itself. Some of the errors that stood out to me were simply the omission of the word "the", for example

"With the Microsoft Corporation deciding to stop technical assistance for Windows XP operating system next month, the Tamil Nadu government has advised all its departments to install free open source software BOSS Linux."

Just as the author uses "the" in "the Microsoft Corporation" I expect to see "the Windows XP operating system" and "the open source software BOSS Linux"

Here is another:

"many of them continued to Windows XP use as the primary operating system"

Sentences like this one stand out as well:

"The prompt for the present advisory is the Microsoft decision as a result of which security updates or technical support for Windows XP operating system would not be discontinued after April 8."

<comment><USER34> The article was just poorly proofread, that's all. The Hindu should have better editorial standards than this. p.s. I'm Indian, and I don't think any claim that this article represents 'Indian English' \-- I'm not even sure what that means -- makes sense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I am curious to know more about BOSS. The [http://bosslinux.in/](http://bosslinux.in/) is not opening (not responding to http request). Does anybody know any alternate link?

<comment><USER36> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOSS_Linux](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOSS_Linux)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> OSS, the order said, "is almost free of virus. Hence loss of information, hacking, phishing can be prevented… there is no need to spend on expensive anti virus software."

I disagree with that statement.

<comment><USER38> The general threat model for Linux systems is outdated installations with extant security holes, often remotely exploitable. This is in contrast with Windows in which a huge class of exploits are by way of content placed by users on their own systems, more often technically trojans than viruses.

This isn't to say that Linux is wholly immune to security exploits. It's not. But it's _hugely_ more manageable and securable than Windows is, even in more recent versions. Which, though they've addressed much of the problem, still leave huge classes of vulnerabilities open.

The ability to configure minimal systems on Linux (principle of least privilege) with _only_ the software and services required for functionality helps hugely in this.

<comment><USER39> To be honest, it is possible to configure windows (starting from XP) with a minimal set of enabled capabilities. The system policies mechanism is quite featurefull, and you lock a system down to minimal rights. It is also possible to deploy system patches and updates locally to a domain from the server (what they call a domain controller) comfigured to do so. In fact you can pretty much control any client associated to a domain relotely with the right access token.

Imho, the main issue is more in:

\- setting up the right set of policies, it's a difficult task. On a unix system, the problem is probably easier to tackle because the first (simpler) layer of security implemented through the file system (linux for instance provides a more elaborated capability mechanism, many others unix also each have their own implementations of a policy/capability mechanism).

\- letting end users having too much control on their computer, because often time they wish to install all sort of products on their own (this is especially true of developpers, but usually computer literates are more security minded than the lambda user). With web apps, this problem is nowadays shifted toward the browser, so maybe this problem isn't as much of an issue as it was 10 years ago for system wide policy enforcement (but as I said it is now one at the browser level).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Every new big player means "more eyes" on the code. And bugs get rooted out quicker.

In the case of proprietary software, every new big player means "more social lock in effect".

</comment><comment><USER41> I think the main difficulty in migration from windows XP to linux is leaving word, excel, outlook, ie and powerpoint. If users have already migrated to open alternatives (libre office, ...), the OS switch is almost transparent.

<comment><USER42> I don't think Microsoft Office is any better than LibreOffice for general users. Most of the Indian government officials are tad computer illiterate. They would not know what they use.

<comment><USER43> even basic things in Excel are not supported in libreoffice, such as validations.

I recently attempted to move everyone in my office to libreoffice where possible and was met with a very large resistence from people who's spreadsheets simply did not work.

it's hard telling people that they have to edit functions/macros that were set up by someone smarter than them 10 years ago.

<comment><USER41> That is commpletely my point. I think there is more resistence for word, excel, outlook, powerpoint than for windows.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Way to go! much needed.</comment>


Coinbase Halts Sales - <AUTHOR>

Coinbase halts sales for a week. This is the message:
Due to higher than normal buy volumes, we are unable to provide exact price quotes right now.
Instead of pausing buys entirely, we decided to give people the option to purchase bitcoin at the market price in a few days. Once your USD funds arrive, we will exchange them to bitcoin at the market price at approximately Monday Nov 18, 2013 at 09:00PM PST.
Note that you can cancel your order at any time up until your bitcoin arrive from the transfer history page.
The market price of bitcoin changes frequently. Below are some recent prices to give you an idea. These do not guarantee what the price will be in a few days. <comment><AUTHOR> I think they've lost a bundle today following Bitstamp's generally lower and super volatile rates. It surprising how little volume can greatly affect the entire market!

<comment><USER2> They charge 1% on every buy & sell -- so I don't think they're losing money.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, but Bitstamp is very dynamic. I guess they just maintain balances with Bitstamp now and their USD balance went down close to $0, but maybe later they or their customers sold coins, which restored the USD balance. With this volatility, I've seen jumps of 5% up and down in seconds.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Purchases have been resumed.</comment>


LulzSec hacks NHS.  - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13712377

<comment><USER3> I completely believe that no patient records have been compromised - <USER2> the project to put them online is so late and over-budget (to the tune of GBP 20 _billion_ ) that it's likely never to be completed.

Let me put that number into perspective: We could buy a replacement fleet of Trident submarines from the NHS IT budget alone...

<comment><USER4> It's wasted either way. £20bn would be much better sunk into renewables and energy independence.

<comment><USER3> It's a matter of perspective, there are shrill voices saying that if we scrap Trident all our economic woes will be over, but really there are much, much lower hanging fruit than that. A windfall tax on the big IT outsourcing firms would be a good start.

<comment><USER5> Having a salary cap for public sector employees might be another way of doing things - say the same level as the PM (£140K or so).

<comment><USER3> A more interesting scenario would be to cap all MP's pay, incl. the PM's, at the national average wage.

<comment><USER6> All that power and responsibility, and not being compensated for it could be dangerous. Wouldn't it deter anyone who wasn't wealthy from office, and/or make them vulnerable to corruption?

<comment><USER3> Serving as an MP is a privilege, not a normal job.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was quite surprised to find that the NHS uses password-less logins for its "Flexible Worker Portal":

<https://erecruitment.nhsponline.nhs.uk/Portal/LoginForm.aspx>

So all you need is the DoB, email address and postcode of someone, and you can view their private information. Genius.

</comment><comment><USER8> Anonymous is the best that could ever happen for proponents of a crackdown on freedom (through/via/on the internet).

No one knows who's behind it, so no one will stand up for them, no one will complain if they get harassed and all the blaim for everything that goes wrong in the future goes to Anon/hackers. It's the perfect scapegoat for incompetence.

<comment><USER9> This isn't Anonymous.

<comment><USER10> Yeah it is. Everyone's Anonymous :|

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Somehow I've a feeling that we're going to soon lose a lot of freedoms that we've previously had online. This further supports the argument that the internet should be 'policed and legislated' - of course this means restricting information also ... Hackers are winning right now, but in the longer term Government and Big Business will crack the whip ...

<comment><USER10> _Somehow I've a feeling that we're going to soon lose a lot of freedoms that we've previously had online._

You've already lost them :| apathy is a bigger enemy than anything. As long as people have access to their netflix or amazon or whatever, they'll be ok with internet crackdowns.

Big business and government have been winning for a long time and the hackers aren't really doing enough.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> The outlook for internet freedoms appears quite doomy over the next few years. Although in this case LulzSec doesn't appear to have done anything other than highlight security failings stories like this, along with the various doings of Anonymous and any other similar groups or individuals, can easily be exploited by politicians to advocate for a Chinese-style censorship regime and an end to net neutrality. Any hint that medical records might have been compromised would cause considerable public fear and alarm, which could then be channelled for political purposes.

</comment><comment><USER13> Anonymous literally could not have asked for a better representative on the information security front. Not only are they demonstrating that nobody's information is safe right now, they're doing it in a way that gets the message across without making everybody angry at them or any other geeks or netizens. Keep up the good work.

<comment><USER14> When you use "literally" like this, it's to indicate that what follows, whilst normally metaphorical, is in this case literal. How is "asking for a better representative on the information security front" a metaphor?

The incessant misuse of the word literally, literally makes my blood boil.

(See what I did there?)

<comment><USER15> Once upon the time: <http://literally.barelyfitz.com/></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: lfm – AWS Lambda Function Manager - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/willyg302/lfm

<comment><USER2> In the example were YAML config put at the top of JS source file. I think a better option would be to use JS comments, so lambda can be tested standalone.

My lambdas mainly written in CoffeeScript, so it should optionally support CoffeeScript multiline comments too.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very good point! Thanks for catching that.

It would be harder in the long run if Lambda decides to support more languages than JS, as the parsing would have to be done on a per-language basis. But anyway, I have created an issue for it. In the meantime you can still use lfm with single files, but you will have to provide all the config via the command line (on the plus side, lfm has shorter CLI options and you get zipping for free!).

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Abbreviations gone crazy. AWS? No mention of Amazon Web Services you have to guess it if you're no user of Amazon cloud services, guess work done right</comment>


AI can detect Alzheimer's 10 years before symptoms show up - <AUTHOR> https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/17/ai-alzheimers-early-detection/ <comment><USER2> AI is really exciting. A computer system modeled after the human brain and nervous system detects neural connectivity issues in the human brain and nervous system brought on by Alzheimers. And, we are just scratching the surface of this technology. I believe the pace and acceleration of innovation for AI will be like nothing we've seen before. At some point, and we have seen a little bit of this already, it will basically build and enhance itself. This may become an arms race of corporations and countries having the largest neural networks. At first, these networks will be aggressively learning and making themselves more intelligent by modifying themselves.

</comment><comment><USER3> > When it comes to Alzheimer's, early detection is crucial

How so? AFAIK currently there's no cure for Alzheimer's. What help brings an early diagnosis?

<comment><USER4> As far as I can research, diet plays a large role. As does environment.

<comment><USER3> do you mean a role in controlling the evolution of the disease once it has been diagnosed?

<comment><USER4> I mean every stage of it including whether or not a person develops it.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Boston Dynamics: UpTown Spot - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHBcVlqpvZ8 <comment><USER2> I still can't understand why Google sold Boston Dynamics, it baffles me. These guys have been pushing the boundaries of robotic motion for years. I see it as another example of Google's inability to focus on anything that is not core services.

Their latest video of Atlas doing parkour is just insane [0]. You'd think that with Google's focus on AI they'd want to own and keep under a tight lid tech as impressive as BD's.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikxFZZO2sk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikxFZZO2sk)

</comment><comment><USER3> Oh good, the machines are already perfecting the victory dance they will perform on our dead bodies.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is really scary. This looks cheap and deadly. This seems to be just the beginning.

I fear for the future of war and conflict. This will make one opposite extremely deadly (think Israel vs. Palestine) or will make it impossible to win any way (Russia vs. USA/Europe)</comment>


I Hate Puzzles: Am I Still A Programmer? - <AUTHOR> http://zef.me/3666/i-hate-puzzles <comment><USER2> I finished my PhD and have failed to get interviewed for positions because I'm also bad at puzzles and algorithm tests. Reading this article made me sigh in relief.

Like the author, I was a developer for many years before returning to Education. I designed a few algorithms in that time and I always had days rather than 1/4 hour to think it through. Ironically, getting a PhD is solving a puzzle - just one that takes years to crack.

As I see it now, the puzzles are a 'fitness function' being used to select the best candidates. In genetic algorithms, fitness functions tend to be compromises which eventually lead to a population that aren't quite what was intended. Time will tell if this is the case with the current selection process.

</comment><comment><USER3> I really enjoy the creation aspect of coding in the same sense I enjoy painting, but I do not like "puzzles" in the sense of there being one answer and I have to fiddle with shit until I get it. I always felt like I was in the minority of programmers with that attitude.</comment>


Howard Schulz, CEO of Starbucks, joins Groupon's Board of Directors - <AUTHOR> http://www.groupon.com/blog/cities/changes-to-the-groupon-board-of-directors/

<comment><USER2> It's more impressive when companies add people to their board who add a perspective other than the entrenched (dare I say evil) mindset of their competition. An example: Chipotle adding Bill Niman, an advocate against factory farming, fast food and cheap meat. A good move for Groupon would be to add someone who speaks for small businesses--the main Groupon customers-- instead of a major corporation.</comment>


Ask HN: Could a faster Prolog have succeeded in industry? - <AUTHOR>

I've read most of what's available in English regarding the Japanese FGCP and their use of Prolog derivatives. What strikes me in all that I've read, is that the "failure" of the enterprise is attributed just to the poor performance they were able the achieve compared to object-oriented procedural programming. I haven't seen any evaluation of the FGCP approach in regard to the practicalities of software production.
From their early publicity, it's clear that the FGCP was aimed at programming in the large, the kind of projects now done with hundreds of programmers using C++ or Java. Consider a typical Java programmer in industry. How well would that person adapt to logic programming?
My suspicion is that even if the Japanese had gotten KL-1 performing like C++, there still would have been tremendous difficulty shifting programmers to that paradigm. I expect that a highly-performant parallel Prolog would have been received about like Haskell has been.
Any anecdotal evidence for or against this? <comment><USER2> I agree that's the stated reason but I don't agree that was the real reason why it was considered a failure. Here are my reasons, reading between the lines, for why they considered it a failure in my opinionated order of importance:

1.) The Japanese bubble economy collapsed. They realized they'd have to stop funding it, and put their ambition to be the biggest AI power in the world aside.

2.) Logicist AI was losing ground to probabilistic AI.

3.) Special purpose machines were much more expensive to design and build than running the same programs on commodity general purpose machines. The Lisp machines ultimately suffered the same fate as the Japanese PIM machines.

4.) They weren't ready to deploy concurrent prolog. They hadn't worked it all out even theoretically. They were hoping that running it concurrently would speed it up, but probably realized that smarter algorithms and optimized implementations in individual programs would have a greater effect.

5.) They rushed the project, rolling out machines and languages before they had been fully worked out. The rushing mentality caused them to increase the expense of their mistakes and to make more mistakes than they might have if they didn't rush.

Also, I disagree that prolog hasn't been a commercial success. For example, Prolog is the right language for solving finite domain contraints and there is a mini-industry around this.

As far as shifting programmers, they had quite a few skilled prolog programmers and they weren't recruiting from the ranks of the then COBOL business programmers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, Prolog has survived in a few niches. But my question was regarding the original vision that Prolog would lead us to an era of large-scale, logic- based, general purpose programming. Historical reviews harp on the performance problem, while I suspect that the design and personnel issues involved in using logic programming would be a much bigger factor.

BTW, where have all those skilled Prolog programmers been hiding since then?

<comment><USER2> I kind of agree. It was definitely a combination of those factors and a few others. I think there was an inflection point in the past ten years where performance became less of an issue, allowing us to say now that performance isn't the issue it used to be. I still think that logic programming will be rediscovered as the language paradigm for the "killer app" to manage "big data."

Ultimately, it felt like less of a speed problem or even a design and personnel problem than a simple matter of taste. In other words, the reason why prolog isn't more widely used is because no one _wanted_ to train people to use it, the way they trained people to use scheme, c,c++,java, and now python. For some reason, logic and logic programming was distasteful to some influential people and many unfavorable conclusions were drawn about it without much foundation, whereas similar issues in other programming paradigms tended to be glossed over.

[edit] AFAIK those Japanese FG guys dispersed into academia and industry. But in the meantime, there was a development of being able to use multi-paradigm programming in a variety of languages including Java, so it's possible they are using other languages where appropriate parts of programs are written in the logic programming paradigm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Not directly responsive, but here are two interesting Prolog-based systems for statistical modeling:

AutoBayes: <http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/opensource/projects/autobayes/> by the same group that did AutoClass, one of the original publically available clustering codes.

PRISM, <http://sato-www.cs.titech.ac.jp/prism/>

</comment><comment><USER4> Is there anything remotely "complicated" that has been really successful in industry? Java is about as basic as you can get, it doesn't even stretch its OO and imperative parts a lot, never mind other programming paradigms. C# has a few more elaborate parts, but I wonder how much use the more "arcane" subsystems get in larger code bases…

</comment><comment><USER5> Prolog wouldn't have a chance over C++ or Java because it's not as good a programming language as C++ or Java (or Perl or Python or Ruby or C or many other languages). You'll notice that dramatically poor performance has not held back Python or Ruby.

Logic programming is a bad programming paradigm. The reason strictly evaluated imperative languages like Scheme or C++ are popular is because in these languages, you tell the computer what to do.

</comment><comment><USER6> I think it was just bad timing.</comment>


LSD Hallucinations: When Computer Vision Goes Wrong - <AUTHOR> http://troynikov.io/lsd-hallucinations/ <comment><USER2> This is a misleading title, and the meanings of related acronyms are not readily clarified.

      LSD:  Large-Scale Direct (monocular/binocular)

      SLAM: Simultaneous Localization And Mapping

The subject matter references debugging a specific library [https://github.com/tum-vision/lsd_slam](https://github.com/tum- vision/lsd_slam)</comment>


The human genome is full of viruses - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/medical-myths-and-models/the-human-genome-is-full-of-viruses-c18ba52ac195 <comment><USER2> > _Even after recovering from an infection there will always be a piece of > that virus encoded within your DNA._

I did a little research and this appears to be _almost completely false_.

This sentence makes it sound like every time you get a cold, your body's DNA is permanently altered. Which would be insane if true.

The reality is that this insane outcome is incredibly rare, but nevertheless has happened enough times _over all of human history_ that we have genetic code from viruses in our DNA, because a virus at some point managed to alter the DNA in a sperm or egg cell.

But the quoted sentence is just _not_ how infections work 99.99...+% of the time. The cold I got last month isn't in my DNA forever. It's very sloppy writing that appears to be aiming for sensationalism instead of accuracy.

<comment><USER3> The article is rather fancifully written (and by a non-scientist) but as a professional genomicist, I can assure you that the human genome _is_ full of viruses, the remnants of which are almost entirely non-functional, but are interesting in the way meteor craters are to geology.

Here is a review (nearly twenty years old from when the human genome was first sequenced) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC138943/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC138943/)

<comment><USER4> Huh, can we remove those? isn't there a cost to have all those extra sequences lying around?

<comment><USER5> You ever see a cryptic line of code with a comment next to it saying something to the effect of: "No idea what this does, but everything breaks if we delete it"?

It could be that old viral code has been repurposed long ago by evolution and serves a purpose.

<comment><USER6> I generally get annoyed at most analogies that compare DNA to code because they oversimplify a lot, but I really do like this particular DNA-code analogy.

My university molecular genetics course taught me that DNA is very complicated. Many of us know of the simplified model where an RNA polymerase, encouraged by some transcription factors, locates and binds to a promoter sequence, unwinds the strands, and constructs an RNA strand. However, DNA has a 3D structure. Histones can wind up DNA tightly enough to hide genes from transcription proteins, or they can unwind and expose DNA to encourage expression. Some transcription factors can bind to sequences several kilobases away from the target gene, cause that part of the DNA to fold onto itself, and ultimately bind to transcription proteins to encourage expression of the target gene.[0]

Extending your comment, it is entirely possible that bits and pieces of old viral code have accidentally led to weird things like this, and that many organisms now depend on this behavior.

[0]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_factor#/media/Fi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_factor#/media/File:Transcription_Factors.svg)

(In the course of reading about transcription factors, I came across something pretty neat that's related to all this about 3D structures: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_factories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcription_factories))

Edit: I should also mention that, if it wasn't obvious, that viral DNA getting inserted into certain places can disrupt these complex interactions by increasing or decreasing the expression of a gene. For the cell/organism, this can be detrimental, benign, or perhaps beneficial.

<comment><USER4> I was worrying about this, specially your latest edit, when i mentioned cleaning up. We could limit to very new additions though just in case. I know that there's maybe no reason to think that this random additions are any worse than the random+selected pieces that were coding before, but just seems ugly somehow.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've always thought of DNA as mere "data". "This goes here, that goes there", etc. And I've always wondered how such a relatively small amount of data could describe the massive complexity of a full-size organism.

But this makes it sound like DNA is data the way Lisp is data: it can contain procedures and transformations and meta-statements about itself, and even mutate during the course of being interpreted. That would explain so much.

The use of the term "virus" in software seems to be more apt than I'd thought.

<comment><USER8> Just in case this is not known, human generic code is more than just DNA.

Most important parts of what encodes us are:

\- DNA \- epigenetic markers on the DNA which modulate which parts of the DNA are active. You influence these and pass them on to your children (as men) and grandchildren (as women, as girls are born with all egg cells they'll ever have) \- cell organelles which copy the DNA, ensure the cell has food and lives, etc. These tend to be independent cells that were at some point captured by our own cells. So they have their own genetic code. These you only inherit from your mother (dad gives half the DNA with epigenetic markers, mom the other half (also with markers) and everything else.

And of course much of what we are is shaped through gestation as well, I.e. the mother's body sends not just nutrients but also hormones etc that regulate gestation (and vice versa the child sends various messages to mom, up to even own cells in case of serious illness or accident or the mother).

Fascinating stuff.

<comment><USER9> > independent cells that were at some point captured by our own cells

It makes a little more sense to think of them as "domesticated" rather than "captured".

<comment><USER10> Domesticated and implanted, unable to survive outside the host, we're talking full H.R. Giger here.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> There was an interesting article a while back on them playing a part in schizophrenia. "The Insanity Virus" [https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-insanity- virus](https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/the-insanity-virus)

<comment><USER12> What a great read! I find it so crazy that after decades of thinking that there's all this "junk DNA" in us, it turns out that it may serve a purpose after all, even if that purpose is malicious.

<comment><USER13> I don't know if junk DNA was ever universally considered to be "junk" \- it's been controversial terminology from the start which has proven to be justified with time as we learn more about what it does.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Mammals could not and would not exist without the membrane fusion protein given to their ancestors by a retrovirus. This protein is _essential_ for forming the multiple nucleus cells that make up the placenta.

</comment><comment><USER15> There is also the theory that the eukaryote nucleus IS a virus

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_eukaryogenesis)

<comment><USER16> Neato! Thanks for that rabbit-hole to explore.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> A good example is the Arc virus. Research at some point proved that removing it from a creature's genome, removed the creature's memory. More: [https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/memory-gene- go...](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/memory-gene-goes-viral)

</comment><comment><USER18> "So powerful and ancient are viruses, that I would summarize their role in life as 'Ex Virus Omnia' (from virus everything)."

We have met the enemy and he is us. Viruses may be both the gravest threat to our species and mothers and fathers of it. They are also, to a first approximation, the Red Queen, who must be obeyed. If we can disobey her, and distribute an effective vaccine in time to dent her latest royal tour, it will be an epic level up: the power to not consent to impregnation by horizontal gene transfer.

It seems that we're not quite there yet.

</comment><comment><USER19> For sci-fi readers, I recommend Greg Bear's "Darwin's Radio" and the sequel "Darwin's Children".

</comment><comment><USER20> Lynn Margulis believed viruses often become symbionts, and speculated that diseases like syphilis and AIDS are so hard to cure because the viruses incorporate themselves into our genome.

She also believed that the Eastern Bloc concept of symbiogenesis explains much of human evolution, and some of that is now accepted by the mainstream community. For instance, it is now believed that mitochondria were originally viruses that became symbionts.

However, Margulis and many adherents of this view argue that essentially _all_ of the organelles formed this way, and that symbionts play a vastly larger role in general.

[https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/discover- inter...](https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/discover-interview- lynn-margulis-says-shes-not-controversial-shes-right)

</comment><comment><USER21> Train of thought while reading title and comments:

First: Genome cannot physically contain a bio-virus, so this must be genetic code, acting as a "computer virus"

Second: Oh they're talking about viral genome embedded in human genome. Got it.

Third: But wait, bio-virus genome embedded in human genome does not by- definition imply that there is something wrong with that human genome. It could just be an innocuous part of the viral genome.

Fourth: Parts of human genome that could act as "computer virus" (i.e., be malicious to the human), and parts of human genome that come from a bio-virus may have some overlap. But you could have two other options too: (a) part of human genome that is malicious but not from a bio-viral source, (b) part of human genome that is from a bio-virus but is not malicious.

</comment><comment><USER22> And they may awaken as well.

[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532710-700-ancient-...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24532710-700-ancient- viruses-buried-in-our-dna-may-reawaken-and-cause-illness/)

</comment><comment><USER23> Without viruses we would not be here in our present state.

The mammalian placenta uses ancient virus protein called syncytin to bond "other" to "own" and thus bypass the effect of the mother's immune system.

</comment><comment> c-smile And the most fascinated fact is that, despite of all these intruders and mutators, living organisms are damn stable and pretty effective devices.

<comment><USER13> I mean, not _that_ stable - the instability is kind of what allows evolution to happen. It's, well, it's good enough, stable enough, effective enough, and that's enough for life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> > In many ways, viruses are eerily reminiscent of the idea of ancient spells, > which sit quietly as words in a book until someone utters the mystical > syllables and unleashes the magic contained within.

If that appeals, I recommend Hannu Rajaniemi's _Quantum Thief_ trilogy.

</comment><comment><USER25> Another fascinating fact is that about 20% of cancers are directly caused by viruses -- they push the cells they infect to be more cancer-like. The famous example is HPV, but there are many more.

<comment><USER26> And some by bacteria. Helicobacter pylori for example

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> > A biological virus (whether it is a true virus, an endogenous retrovirus, or > a transposon) can literally lay dormant in a word document as a string of > As, Ts, Cs, and Gs.

Literally, huh? In a word document?

<comment><USER28> Sure, that's why we get the usual advice:

\- wash your hands with soap as often as possible

\- do not touch your mouth, nose, or eyes when outside

\- always disable macros in word and excel

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Monkey patching is not good engineering practice.

<comment><USER30>
        from gevent import monkey
        monkey.patch_all()

So good

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Now I'm more convinced Evolution might be driven by viruses

<comment><USER13> Evolution is driven by a lot of things. It's driven by viruses by definition since of a virus integrates and makes a mutation to the germline, then that's a change which is evolution. And obviously bdosease is a major selective pressure driving evolution. And so so starvation, radiation, chemical mutation, errors in copying, heat, cold, literally everything that impacts survival and procreation drives evolution.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I used to work in genetics.

We're not sure if the viruses are actually dormant or not. They may be the active ingredients for a lot of biological processes. In other words, viruses and junk DNA are probably essential parts of modern man.

If you're squeamish, I suggest you just take what I said at face value, and move on with your life.

If you're not, then you can google for some more info, but you won't like what you find. How sausage is made, and all that.</comment>


Show HN: DEEP Framework – DYI Microservices on Serverless AWS (e.g. www.deep.mg) - <AUTHOR> https://www.github.com/MitocGroup/deep-framework.git <comment><USER2> Holy buzzwords. Much better explained on the AWS Partner Directory.

"DEEP Marketplace is an app store for serverless applications. Customers choose functionality from listed microservices and deploy them together as an web app into their own AWS accounts. Completely secure, fast, scalable, low- cost and low-maintenance."

[http://www.aws-partner- directory.com/PartnerDirectory/Partne...](http://www.aws-partner- directory.com/PartnerDirectory/PartnerDetail?Name=Mitoc+Group+Inc)

<comment><AUTHOR> Fair point :) Will learn based on this experience and try to simplify the documentation. Thanks for your feedback!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think you need to better explain what you do.

I looked through the site and saw modules I could add . . to something.

I clicked on one module to read more about it and there was a one-line description and an image slider whose thumnails wouldn't expand.

I like the sound of "DIY" (probably not "DYI" as in your title), I like the sound of "Microservices" and "Serverless AWS", which sound like buzzwords I'd like to learn more about, but the site doesn't answer those questions, even for someone curious enough to poke around.

The template placeholders like "User review User review User review" don't inspire the kind of confidence people will need before they "Add to cart" for $14.99 to somehow deal with credit cards.

I realize this is "Show HN" and you're not launching. I don't mean to sound harsh.

I do think you need to polish things more, and know that HN readers are your actual audience.

One nitpick - clicking on the "Recommended Microservices" section leaves you in the same position but should scroll to the top of the page.

Nitpick 2: I tried to enter my email to be notified of updates and the form doesn't work.

<comment><USER4> Very much appreciate your feedback! We are working on polishing it and making it private beta. To be honest, we need a lot of help, as well as a lot of feedback. Although this post was a hope that people will provide feedback on deep-framework, I completely agree with you that it would be great for www.deep.mg to be also fully functional, which is not right now. Can I ask you to send an email to email@example.com, so I could notify you when we have the public beta instead?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Zero offense intended; the following are my honest-to-goodness impressions of your product.

1\. I have no idea what it is. DIY (presumably) microservices? And, there's a way to use AWS without servers (is this a reference to Lambda?) The title of your product is 'Digital Enterprise End-to-end Platform', which looks impressive but on further inspection appears meaningless.

2\. Reading further into your github page and looking at the DEEP marketplace, I think you're selling software-as-a-service deployments? Something like Sandstorm or Openshift, I'd imagine.

3\. Aah, okay, so you're making an abstraction layer on top of AWS -- but it doesn't seem like that permits any portability between cloud platforms. Is the only benefit to using your system easy deployment onto Amazon's product?

<comment><USER4> @Nayetan - none taken, very good and thoughtful feedback! Let me answer your questions:

1\. DEEP is designed to be Platform-as-a-Service for serverless environments that developers and businesses could use in their own accounts. AWS Lambda is one of those services. The fact that right now only AWS provides the full spectrum of services made us build it on AWS first.

2\. "Sandstorm makes it easy to run your own server" and "OpenShift gives you all the tools you need to develop, host and scale your apps in the public or private cloud" \- so I would say neither, because the goal as you further described is to be able to support cross-cloud providers, while above ones are service-specific (am I wrong?)

3\. You are correct. Right now it's an abstracted layer on AWS, and we are planning to add in near future more providers like Azure, Google Cloud and more. For now, it makes the developer job easy by abstracting everything except application layer, and have it scaled at AWS size, which is virtually infinite.

Does it make sense? And to go even further, what would you improve in our documentation? :)

<comment><USER5> 1\. Aah, makes sense.

2\. The similarity with openshift is due to their Marketplace [1], but it pretty much ends there. Sandstorm as well for much the same reason (easy deployments of premade services).

3\. Mmhm, makes sense.

As for documentation changes, please highlight what improvements your product makes to the status quo! The 'DEEP for Developers' section tells me that it adds abstraction on top of AWS' model services, but beyond that, I don't see any improvement to working on the bare metal, so to speak. Like, Sandstorm [2] (sorry, just heard about them so they're on my mind right now) says that they handle authentication themselves. That's wonderful; I hate reimplementing auth for every project! Or even PyPy [3]: I _could_ use CPython, but their product runs faster and uses less memory. Why should I bother to learn DEEP and add another level of dependency to a project?

[1]: [https://marketplace.openshift.com](https://marketplace.openshift.com)

[2]: [https://sandstorm.io/#developers](https://sandstorm.io/#developers)

[3]: [http://pypy.org/](http://pypy.org/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Again, very much appreciate your feedback. This is the main reason why we've posted it here, to get some discussions and learn together what is relevant nowadays to developers and what is not, so we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

To touch base on your example with authentication, we are working on deep- security library that everybody will be able to reuse without any effort. We are approaching security in every layer similar Amazon IAM, and since we are using microservices architecture, developers don't need to write any security specific code, because it is automatically generated at deploy. Everything is collected at deployment time from every layer and applied on AWS for backend and database, while on frontend is exposed in UI as role-based access. Does it make sense?

<comment><USER5> It's starting to come together :) I'll keep an eye on your repo; I'm still curious about various specifics that will likely be elaborated upon in time.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you, Neytan! We'd be happy to notify you when we are open for public beta, but again feel free to email at email@example.com to get an early access ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Is this a [https://github.com/jaws-framework/JAWS](https://github.com/jaws- framework/JAWS) competitor?

<comment><USER4> Yes, it is similar approach to JAWS, with an abstraction layer that could scale the framework and ecosystem across cloud providers. We have presented this last week at AWS re:Invent 2015 - [https://www.portal.reinvent.awsevents.com/connect/sessionDet...](https://www.portal.reinvent.awsevents.com/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=1646&tclass=popup). The feedback was overwhelmingly positive, so we'll continue iterating to empower developers build and publish their microservices applications to the marketplace; and on the other hand to enable enterprise customers to consume and package the microservices into web apps that will be deployed into their accounts from cloud providers like AWS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> We would like to ask for feedback: What do you think is missing that would empower you as a developer in as-a-service economy?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Think of enterprise applications as puzzles, and think of us as puzzle manufacturers who will help puzzle builders (developers, devops, admins, etc) get the best puzzle for customer needs :)

</comment><comment><USER7> way too complicated. the logo was distracting as hell too.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your feedback! Just to make sure we can act on your feedback: Do you mean the first diagram is distracting or which logo are you referring to? If you would make the change, what would you improve?

<comment><USER7> just overall message is not clear as to what benefit it provides.

<comment><AUTHOR> I guess we have tried to show the value to both developers and businesses. Would you like to read in README more technical details or more none technical examples on how this is already used by other people? To be honest, we have tried to explain it similar to AngularJS, that we are using on frontend, but I guess we failed you here.

<comment><USER7> I guess it wasn't enough for me to stay and read it.

<comment><USER4> Just out of curiosity, do you think below repo is better documented or does it suck as well? No offense taken, as long as you are honest :)

[https://github.com/MitocGroup/deep-microservices- helloworld](https://github.com/MitocGroup/deep-microservices-helloworld)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Spotify Play Beta - Spotify on the Web (in Flash) - <AUTHOR> https://play.spotify.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Just a note: I can't access it in Chrome. But in Safari I get this <http://cl.ly/KwCk></comment>


Ext JS vs. Google Closure - <AUTHOR> http://www.extjswithrails.com/2009/11/ext-js-vs-google-closure.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Found this floating around. Interesting to note that AdMob (to be sold to Google for $750M, as everyone knows), used Ext JS (before closure was released obviously). Wondering if anyone else has any thoughts comparing the two.</comment>