OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble - <AUTHOR> https://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2018/02/16/osm-is-in-trouble/ <comment><USER2> This post seems half right, half wrong.

Wrong that OSM should be a service provider and not a database - I think it should be a database, and corporations are good for OSM. The post calls for OSM to essentially become Mapbox. It's insanely expensive to be Mapbox, and Mapzen just failed trying to be a less corporate version of Mapbox. And then the usage policy part of the article is moot or at least not that consequential if you don't believe OSM should be a service provider.

Right: Moderation tools need to be created/fixed. New mappers need to be encouraged/onboarded better. Vandalism is a problem. OSMF culture is toxic. Hidden gatekeepers are toxic. Imports need to be supported. Bots need to be enabled, and we need to consider people who contribute code/tech/imports first class OSM contributors and not just glorify the individual mapper.

Probably right: OSM needs layers, or even a more sweeping re-architecture to allow better versioning, moderation, better tooling, and easier understanding of the data.

Probably wrong: Expanding the scope of OpenStreetMap to include transient data. Too much other work to do, maybe later for this.

<comment><USER3> > Probably right: OSM needs layers, or even a more sweeping re-architecture to > allow better versioning, moderation, better tooling, and easier > understanding of the data.

I have a hobby site about railways [0] I'm picking up again after a decade of inactivity. I wanted to display a route map of each railway, with clickable stations and the route highlighted.

I _can not_ work out how to do that. OSM has the route and station data (there and in Open Railway Map [1]). I expected to find a layer called 'Railways' with sub-layers, one for each railway, and I could export the data and highlight it on another map.

Instead I have raster tiles, and no way to highlight the railway I'm talking about. I know the data must be there somewhere but how on earth do I get it?

[0] [https://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk](https://www.narrow-gauge.co.uk) [1] [https://www.openrailwaymap.org/](https://www.openrailwaymap.org/)

<comment><USER4> The type of data you want for routes is probably in KMZ format. I took a few minutes looking around openrailwaymap and their wiki but nothing immediately obvious stood out.

[https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/railroad- kmz](https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/railroad-kmz)

A brief google search came back with this; I haven't inspected the data or even tried to use it to see what it contains, but the page description indicates it may not be exact routes _you_ are looking for-but it's a start. Implementing the data is a bit more work in order to display route maps, something like the previously mentioned MapBox does this very interactively.

My email address is in the profile, feel free to shoot over an email if you'd like some help with it. Depending on the complexity, I can probably devote a few cycles this weekend to show you a one-off map with railway routes, and show you how it's done.

<comment><USER5> Is KMZ really still the best way to go?

<comment><USER4> Good question.

I'm only a hobbyist with GIS, so I can't really say or speak to how practical of a format KML/KMZ are in production.

But that's a really good question.

<comment><USER6> I work in GIS.

KML/KMZ is decently useful as an interchange format and simple rendering but almost all web GIS software has better support for GeoJSON. It's richer and easier to work with.

I've never worked on a GIS system that used KML/KMZ in prod for rendering. It's usually shapefiles, PostGIS Geometry, ESRI's proprietary GDB feature, WKB/WKT or GeoJSON on the backend being served up to clients.

I have used it as a lightweight way to deliver simple data in the past though for use cases where there was no proper client renderer (we would just tell the end user to download google earth and open up the file)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm the DRI for most of these problems. Random thoughts:

I think David Ogilvy said something like "Search all the parks in your city, you'll find no statues of committees". Everyone was super keen to make OSM in to a web of committees, and this is one root of the problem from an organizational point of view. It's not super clear to me what the OSMF has done in the last (to pick a number) 5 years. (I don't regard "doing the same thing as last year" as relevant to anything, I just have a personal bias towards new things).

From a technical point of view we merged sysadmin (who inherently want stability) with development (who inherently want change) and stability won (it doesn't involve arguments or as much work, I guess). That's why the API looks the same way I designed it X number of years ago.

It's still a wonderful project, but more of a work of art than anything else. It's not like wikipedia didn't have all the same problems. Making a project that really evolves and grows over large periods of time is really hard. Like - most of the things on the S&P 500 won't be there in 10 or 20 years or something.

I think what really happens is that projects go through a lifecycle and something new comes along to replace them, rather than anything getting fixed. I'm not sure if this is a good example, but, you could try to "fix" Apache, or you could just do this new thing, "nginx". For all kinds of reasons, the new thing is more efficient. One of the few counter examples I think is going to be Amazon.

The world has moved on from making vector maps and OSM solved almost all the related problems (just not geocoding, which annoys me no end). It moved on, because of OSM! All the money and interest in maps is now around autonomous navigation, which means 3D maps and other things outside of OSMs area.

<comment><USER8> > I'm the DRI

All I can find is "Dietary Reference Intake" on [https://www.merriam- webster.com/medical/DRI](https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/DRI) \-- what do you mean?

(I agree with most of your post by the way (except for the bit about it being art, which would mean it has no function except to be art), I'm just unclear on what you meant here.)

<comment><USER7> Directly Responsible Individual

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Coast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Coast)

<comment><USER9> Oh. I was going with "Dirty Rotten Imbecile", from my youthful punk days.

I can think of some cases where it would still fit. You seem okay, though ;)

<comment><USER10> My first reflex is to go to Urban Dictionary (!ud), and that's the first result.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Open maps used to be the job of the USGS. They stopped doing it because of Google.

I was touring the USGS in Palo Alto about 10 years ago, and the librarian there was lamenting the existence of Google. He said that while it was nice that Google was doing all this work, it was causing the USGS to _stop_ doing it, since they could get the data from Google.

He predicted that the USGS would get severely cut in their funding for mapping activities because of it, and he was right. He was worried that all the best data would be locked up in Google's servers, and he was right about that too.

<comment><USER12> I used to work in the building with the USGS map store. It was very sad to see it close. It wasn't commercial map providers that caused it to close, it was the avilablilty of USGS topo maps online, and a faster data collection to map pipeline. You can still order maps printed on demand directly from the USGS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I remember just a few years ago, I got a new phone and was interested in replacing as many Google apps with OSS maps that I could. (K9 instead of Google's mail app, etc.)

Naturally I turned to OSM instead of Google Maps. But I was really surprised by how strange and difficult it was to install and use. As the author mentioned, OSM itself doesn't have any apps, which is very confusing. After some research I figured out that you have to download a 3rd party app. The 3rd party apps that do exist all use different terminologies, require downloading huge amounts of data and picking what maps you want ahead of time, and had different levels of functionality. The UIs were universally terrible (at the time at least).

Needless to say I quickly gave up on using OSM and turned back to Google Maps --and I'm their perfect use case, a skilled techie with a deep interest in using free software! I can't imagine trying to explain how to use OSM to my mom, even if I somehow managed to install it for her.

I can't comment on the rest of the article but its usability worries are on point.

<comment><USER8> > Needless to say I quickly gave up on using OSM and turned back to Google > Maps--and I'm their perfect use case, a skilled techie with a deep interest > in using free software! I can't imagine trying to explain how to use OSM to > my mom

My mom got an iPhone gifted from my dad, so there's mistake number one (I don't know of any decent OSM apps on that proprietary platform), but for what it's worth, my non-technical girlfriend has no trouble with it. Then again, that was 2014ish, not sure what time you're talking about.

> require downloading huge amounts of data and picking what maps you want > ahead of time

It's not easy to find, I agree, but you can use it without downloading a single map. If being online all the time floats your boat, you can do that (at least in Osmand, the de facto app for Android).

> The UIs were universally terrible (at the time at least)

OsmAnd invested a lot of time in this. I didn't mind the old UI that much and the new one has some things I don't like (but are probably easier for newbies), but it might be worth a try again. Especially if you live in Europe, and definitely if you live in the Netherlands or west Germany, the map data is much more complete than Google's on everything but business information.

<comment><USER14> I use Galileo, but it's the only one I've used on Android or iOS so I'm not sure how good it is but it works for me.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Here is my experience.

I work for a company that syndicates location data for businesses. We had a couple of businesses that wanted to syndicate to OSM.

It. Was. A. Nightmare.

We have addresses for every store. We don't know where the building is. Any store we place is going to be easy to place on a street near the building. If you've not placed it inside of the strip mall on the right spot, other people delete it. And what do you do with NYC? Suppose that you have a store that is somewhere on the second floor of a skyscraper. We don't know where it is in that building.

Have you tried to map out thousands of department stores? We know hours, phone numbers, and addresses for each department. We have NO idea what the actual store layout is. Without the layout, OSM basically didn't seem to want the rest of what we can give them.

If a customer is willing to pay us to deal with OSM, we're going to discourage them and ask for top dollar if they insist. It is that painful.

<comment><USER16> Are you complaining that OSM contributors rejected wrong or imprecise location data about your client's stores?

If you are, I would like you to also consider this from the point of view of (maybe volunteer) contributors who prefer less data but correct data in OSM. Maybe draw a parallel with Wikipedia where a page that is not up to the standards might be deleted.

(Not a contributor to OSM myself, but I have helped the French Drupal community and cofounded the Museomix community. Also, I appreciate precise data in OSM)

<comment><USER15> No. I am stating that OSM has no setup for, or desire to, accept useful but incomplete data. And unless they do, they will not have data available that other services have.

I know where Google, Bing, Facebook, Yelp, Foursquare, etc get phone numbers and current business hours for our clients. They are straightforward for us to work with, and we are happy to give it to them. OSM is not easy to work with us, so don't get that data.

OSM has a choice. Be easy to work with, or have limited data. OSM has chosen to be hard to work with. That is a valid choice, but then you have to live with the result.

<comment><USER17> alltheplaces is almost what you are looking for.

[https://github.com/alltheplaces/alltheplaces](https://github.com/alltheplaces/alltheplaces)

I guess you'd be looking to bypass the hard part.

<comment><USER15> No, that's the opposite of what we are looking for. We're not looking for data that other people have uploaded. We've got that data straight from the companies before it is publicly announced. We're publishing it to everywhere the companies want it published to.

OSM is not one of the places that we want to deal with providing that data to.

<comment><USER17> If you hand alltheplaces your data, people ingesting alltheplaces will have your data.

I was suggesting it as an alternative open distribution channel that was less concerned with details.

<comment><USER18> Hello. I am the creator of alltheplaces and Max is absolutely correct. Alltheplaces is a bunch of scrapers right now because it was the fastest way to get the data, but if you have data in a machine readable format already then I don't have to scrape it. I can just download your data file and distribute it to whomever wants to use it (people interested in importing to OSM, geocoders/search engines, etc.).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've tried to build an open check-in app based on OSM data, and I've ran into many of the problems mentioned in the article:

• Tags and relations are a total mess. There are many different and overlapping schemes. There is obviously outdated/sub-standard data, but automated fixes are forbidden. There are some neat tools to make sense of the tag data, but ultimately I had to deal with all that mess and complexity on my end.

• The lack of moderation or a way to officially act as an intermediary for edits (other than clunky oAuth flow) meant I couldn't expose an Add/Edit/Fix functionality for my users. Similarly, if I wanted to let my users upload a photo of a venue, there was no service to store it, no identifier or tag to associate it.

• The API returns only nodes entirely within an area, rather than everything intersecting a given area. If you fetch small lat/long area, you won't get a node for the country/city/district it's in, unless you stumble upon a point in its border or label. That meant I couldn't fetch things from OSM API as needed, and had to have my own copy of the data and the DB and custom search.

• The map looks ugly without buildings. There was free building data available for areas I was interested in, but I was told to copy them by hand.

<comment><USER20> > The API returns only nodes entirely within an area, rather than everything > intersecting a given area.

The osm.org API is meant for editing. It's not a map rendering and querying API. There are lots of alternatives for that.

> There was free building data available for areas I was interested in, but I > was told to copy them by hand.

OSM is open to imported data. It just has to be done carefully because "with great power comes great responsibility" \- add millions of items to the OSM database and you can royally screw it up (there is an argument to say that most of OSM's problems in the US stem from this). But there's a well documented imports process and lots of people with experience in importing buildings to help you through it.

<comment><USER21> Can you clarify which API I should be using for data access? My last project involved determining locations parks and rivers, and I ran in to a lot of the same problems. But, if I just want GPS coordinates, I'm not sure where else to go. Mapbox is find for rendering but less so if I want the raw data and use it myself (for a phone application for example).

<comment><USER20> The Overpass API should be the first call. Alternatively, you can download OSM data and feed it into your own database, which gives you much more flexibility to write the queries you want ([http://download.geofabrik.de/](http://download.geofabrik.de/) is a good place to download the data for the area you want; osm2pgsql and Osmosis are the two standard tools for loading OSM into a database, usually Postgres/PostGIS, though there are others).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Thanks for posting this here! I feel like this is mostly good constructive criticism.

I have given a few talks about using OSM data in the US government and it comes down to authoritative data sources and validation. It's a great starting point, but there needs to be another layer (or two) of validation before it can be used at the enterprise level. The National Map Corps has some good examples of how this can be implemented with data stewardship.

I am also working on a few projects to take public domain data and put it into OSM. While it's useful and mostly open, it's definitely less open than the original data sources. Another issues is that as soon as someone edits the imported data, it will become less authoritative as well.

<comment><USER8> > it will become less authoritative

Or better than the authoritative original.

Like with Wikipedia, where you often hear that people prefer to cite a single person as source (because "anyone could edit Wikipedia", as if no single person can setup a website or write a paper), at least Wikipedia has had thousands of reads and often dozens or hundreds of reviews. People are scared of the idea "it could be anyone", while the most likely editor is just a peer with good intentions.

<comment><USER12> In many (most?) cases it can be better than the authoritative sources. But there is also the possibility for vandalism or sloppy work.

There are established ways to combat this (peer review, data stewards, reputation scoring) and even OSM has a checkbox for further validation.

OSM will never fit every use case, but it's good to understand where it falls short and can improve.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I've found that in terms of supporting any kind of additional analysis, OSM data to be unreliable to the point of uselessness, which isn't to say there is a better alternative. I think this quote from your article: "One of the most significant technical problems with OSM is the lack of a review model, that is for a change to the map to be staged and then reviewed before being applied. Not having this functionality caused ripples of problems throughout the system, some of which I'll discuss here." is the primary reason I can't regularly use OSM data. Trust me when I say there are millions of instance where having _reliable_ data regarding streets could save me time/ stress. Do you have any thoughts on how to improve the quality of OSMaps? Conceptually, I feel like the product is indispensable. In practice, I feel like the product is utterly unusable.

<comment><AUTHOR> This was a hard post to make. OSM was a big part of my life for many years, and I have friends in the project. I like my friends (even the ones I disagree with).

But where OSM has failed most in my view (and maybe I need to add this to the article) is that there are now free geographic datasets from local governments and without the ability to integrate them into OSM easily, and then update them (which we basically can't do), I fear OSM is going to ultimately fail at its mission

<comment><USER23> Is this a technology issue? Or a funding issue?

<comment><USER17> It's frequently a licensing issue and then also a resources issue.

There's relatively generalized tools for diffing data against OSM and outputting a change file, but lots of data is released using ambiguous or slightly incompatible licensing.

One example is [http://blog.improve-osm.org/en/2018/01/new-features-and- enha...](http://blog.improve-osm.org/en/2018/01/new-features-and-enhancements- in-cygnus/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Even Apple the most valuable company in the world with hundreds of billions of dollars of cash on hand is way behind Google in terms of mapping.

[https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps- moat/](https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/)

If Apple has trouble keeping feature parity with Google Maps, there is no way that an endeavor like Open Street Maps has any real chance of making something with the breadth, features, and usability of Google Maps.

<comment><USER25> The why doesn't Apple do what other companies and industries typically do in a situation where there is one dominant player? Get everyone else to join a _single open solution_ and then start attacking Google for not being open with its maps.

Get Microsoft, Tom Tom, Samsung - everyone else - to work on OSM.

Right now, Apple is basically building the "Windows Phone" of map solutions, because it "wants to be different", and making the same mistake Nokia did in smartphones.

They should get over their own egos and actually choose the option with the highest chance of success against Google Maps.

<comment><USER26> Because xkcd:927 It will never happen.

<comment><USER27> If it's to their advantage, it will happen. See the AV1 codec, which Apple joined along with other industry giants as an alternative to patent-encumbered video codecs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Im my opinion the biggest problem is the data model (or lack of). Tags i.e. key-value pairs are used to add properties to geometry. Mappers use different combinations of keys/values to describe the same thing. The post touches on this, but does not offer solutions other than adding "layers".

There should be a strict schema that would be community managed through some process.

<comment><USER8> Like what, tag proposals where people vote yay or nay? We have those. As an active mapper, I very rarely find two ways of tagging the same thing, so the process seems to work fine.

And if you do find a situation where there are multiple options, it takes only a quick check on taginfo to find the more commonly used one. If you go with that, it should converge soon.

<comment><USER28> Currently there is nothing to stop mappers using tags in wrong ways. It should just be flat out impossible. If a field/tag isn't defined in the schema, it could not be used. The range of values should be limited in the same way, too.

<comment><USER8> Ah, I see where you're going with this. It would slow innovation down to a trickle, though. Anyone who wants to do something that's not yet standardized would have to stash their edits somewhere and wait for official approval. And that would likely take weeks or months at best. Currently, the best idea wins automatically because good ideas are used by both mapping applications and mappers.

Maybe something in the middle, like the current wiki system but with an enforcement rule of whatever is on the wiki. Anyone could freely edit it because it's a wiki (adding allowed options, and removing/changing any that have extremely few uses (zero, or perhaps a few which are then removed)), but at least there is a correct spec.

If people really had to adhere to a strict, slow-moving standard with pre- approval, the spec would also become extremely complex and very difficult to implement, because the spec-makers will want to think of every eventuality. See any other large specification ever, like HTML or something. I can't see that ending well. I think a hybrid system might be better than a strict one, given the choice between those two.

I like thinking about it though! Always good to have hear ideas.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This is an extremely thoughtful and constructive post. Thanks to Serge for making it.

I looked closely at getting deeply involved with OSM a few years back. And bounced off hard because the community is infested with assholes. There's a lot of very rude people who are active on the mailing lists that set the culture. It made me uninterested in trying to work through those cultural problems to improve the technical project. I'm not alone in this feeling.

</comment><comment><USER30> Thank you for your contributions and writing this. Just spent a week of development time 'fixing' Nomination reverse geo-code issues and creating a pay for RGC backup because we exceeded the 1per sec max and had NO idea when it would turn back on. To boot, no help whatsoever determining why when we used it successfully for over a year. All of a sudden NOPE, we're cut off with foggy reasoning and no explanation of why or when we'll be back up. I've spent several months on maps. All of them. I know them through and through. I could sleep speak API docs and pricing for mapping services. We need OSM. OSM needs many of these 'fixes'. ASAP. No idea who was running things there. You gotta work on your analogies ;), but yeah if a user doesn't know how much the total usage is and can only use a percentage of that unknown total, it's ridiculous. Let's get a premium account going at resonable rates. Same for reverse geocode. No more than a 1ps max. Ok so what if we have a surge. Error 3. Give me a break. And so brashly the docs state this almost warning deterring any user from ever wanting to integrate because there is a big ol' flag saying 'we DO NOT want to scale with you!' At a bare minimum how about you average per second rates over a 10min aggregate. Soooo much room for overhaul and improvement here. This is a big start. Number one on HN! Let's fix/upgrade the antiquated OSM tech, logic and direction. It's a new world and the world needs OSM.

<comment><USER31> You can install Nominatim om your own hardware and then make as many queries as you want. There are also companies offering hosted Nominatim (e.g. geofabrik), which will come with a limit and a way to see how much you have used.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Previously I really like the flexibility of the tagging system in open street map. I used something like it for a unrelated commercial product and we have found we have to switch away from it. And we had very tight control over the definitions of the tagging we were using.

The tools were difficult, as is mentioned in the main post. That is certainly an inconvenience but I figured we could muddle through that. The bigger problem is that the customers just never got it. They wanted a single, authoritative classification for an object.

Our plan is to move to a system inspired by the model used in BIM for classification. The princicple difference is that in open street map all data identifying an object has to lie within the tags. In the alternate system, a single identifier for the object type is used, and this references external metadata that gives you additional information which does not have to be embedded in the tags on the object. An example of additional information held external to the map and tags is that a bathroom is a type of room. I don't have to include in the map data that the object is both a bathroom and a room.

I should add, the external meta data also gives a strict definition of what types of tags (and maybe values) are allowed on the given type of object. If you need something a little different, you can make a new type.

I am not sure how well this type of system could work in open street map. Is it too rigid? Or would there be too much proliferation of types? Classification is always hard and I am not sure people have solved that problem in any large context.

And of course, changes like this would mean a new database. If people ever do think about making an OSM 2.0 maybe this, or another tagging alternative, is something to consider.

(edit: typos)

<comment><USER3> I like the sound of this, like an object graph of data from OSM.

> I am not sure how well this type of system could work in open street map. Is > it too rigid? Or would there be too much proliferation of types? > Classification is always hard and I am not sure people have solved that > problem in any large context.

Ontologies are well-researched. Unfortunately they're not my area of expertise as I turned away from doing a PhD in them and went into business.

I have been playing with a controlled vocabulary since Christmas for a personal project and the complexity of definition has made me think this is why Google et al have gone for a more flexible, machine-learned typing, and why the types for schema.org are so broad.

Having been negative, I think this is exactly what OSM needs to organise the world's objects.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> _OSM gives people the tools to create their own map rather than offering them a simple, out of the box solution_

On this point and the main part of the first argument, I kinda disagree; the OSM project should specifically aim to do that: providing means for one to create a service.

However, providing an actual map service would cost much, much more in bandwidth and I doubt a free software project like this has that kind of funds - actually serving tiles can add up to large costs pretty fast if enough people use the service.

So if you want an actual service, you either do the hosting yourself or go see mapbox/whatever.

<comment><USER34> Time to move away from awful raster maps and to vector maps?

<comment><USER35> There are some, e.g. OSMAnd on Android, they are awfully slow. I wonder why no one has written a proper, fast Opengl renderer for osm

<comment><USER20> They have. It's called Mapbox GL, it's fully open source and there's a whole open source ecosystem around it.

<comment><USER36> Are there any sites where you can use it with current data? As far as I know Mapbox only sells it as a service to other companies, they don't have a site where users can browse it. The only site I know that use Mapbox is Strava, and they (or Mapbox) are slow to update the data. I made edits months ago that aren't available yet. Still, the data is much better than Google's for runners and cyclists.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I'm also interested in the development of OSM (being an editor and a data consumer) and I've witnessed first hand some of your issues. For instance, once I've had to create my own "geocoder" for transit fines in São Paulo using OSM data, because no geocoder commercially available would be able to deal with the data.

So, now that we clarified I'm not a troll, nor a bot, I ask you: how should we deal with those issues? Join en masse the OSMF so we can vote for a change? Begin the "New-OSM-But-Better Foundation"?

I also think having layers (particularly, layers vouched by governments) would be awesome. I saw several governmental branches in Brazil wanting to be more integrated with OSM - this would allow them to stay "inside" OSM (and being an accredited citizen), instead of creating their own silos, importing data from time to time.

<comment><AUTHOR> Honestly, I have no idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> I can understand the frustration of OSM users that they have to create their own maps, but providing free tile servers would never be possible with the restricted funding for OSM.

</comment><comment><USER39> FWIW I don't really think any of these problems are "new" and don't think OSM is truly in any more trouble than it's ever been. And as many tensions as there obviously are in OSM, it hasn't stopped us getting pretty damn far. And if anyone thinks that OSM may be stagnating I would suggest getting involved in improving their local area (it's not hard!) and I think they will quickly find out for themselves.

</comment><comment><USER40> IMHO internet projects, especially free data-centric projects shold just be made as granular as possible. There should be a project to maintain the actual data base and independent projects to display and integrate this data. And as far as I know this is how it actually is in the world of OSM though the actual projects are not being developed and marketed actively enough. I may be wrong - I have never really used OSM (I prefer the proprietary map project native to the country I live in - it does the local job much better than both OSM and Google), just read about it a number of times.

</comment><comment><USER36> One thing that made me a bit nervous to start editing is the lack of an easy way to roll back changes, at least I couldn't find one using the iD editor. If I make a mistake and save it I need to do new edits to try and fix it, possibly making things worse, instead of just removing the entire changeset. I had some issues with multipolygons and had to edit the same things maybe four or five times before I got it right.

And why isn't the Strava heatmap easier to use? They allow OpenStreetMap to use the heatmap for tracing [1], but doing so in the iD editor requires you to copy a long url from the wiki and use a custom layer. This only shows the heatmap, no aerial photos or other mapping data, and it disappears when zoomed in too much.

[0] [https://i.imgur.com/V4Tn96F.png](https://i.imgur.com/V4Tn96F.png)

[1] [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava#Data_Permission_-...](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava#Data_Permission_- _Allowed_for_tracing.21)

<comment><USER41> Hey sorenjan - The OSM Wiki is not correct. We've received no license from Strava that allows tracing outside of their iD fork.

Current progress on securing permission to use the heatmap for OSM tracing is happening here: [https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer- index/pull/373](https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/373)

<comment><USER36> Ok, good to know. It seems mostly academic though, since using their iD fork with the slide add-on [0] is a better user experience, and someone from Strava mentions in the Github issue that it's approved internally. Of course I'm no lawyer and I understand that proper licensing is important, I'll just use their fork for now when tracing their heatmap.

I see that you're the iD maintainer, are there any plans on adding the slide functionality? Or b-splines which could get tessellated client side before saving to the database? I can take this opportunity to thank you and the other contributors, I probably wouldn't edit OSM if it weren't for iD.

[0] [https://labs.strava.com/slide/](https://labs.strava.com/slide/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> This was a wonderful post, thanks for the honesty and detail, emacsen.

What I'd like to see as far as a technical overhaul, is reimagining the entire thing as a 3D dataset. Needing to model a paper map is no longer the goal, modeling space in 3 dimentions seems to be the more exciting/useful way forward.

I'd like to have a model of my town in 3D, either at mostly manual low-poly resolution (aka minecraft) thats done by hand, or (though much more data intensive) with point cloud/lidar data.

Web pages can receive the 3d data and render a 2d model, or the server can project 3d onto 2d tiles before delivery.

</comment><comment><USER43> He's not wrong.

OSM is too complex for the majority of businesses. I know two that chose to pay Google for their mapping needs rather than jump through OSM's hoops.

Imagine if the only way to get Linux on your computer was to download and compile the whole thing from source yourself, instead of buying or downloading a distro.

If OSM had a mapping solution like Google's, it would thrive. And just for fun, it should undercut Google's pricing.

<comment><USER20> > If OSM had a mapping solution like Google's, it would thrive.

It does, it's called Mapbox.

Plus a number of excellent smaller providers - Thunderforest, Geofabrik, Graphhopper etc.

<comment><USER44> And kind of like Linux, you have a patchwork of unsatisfying solutions.

Mapbox isn't always cheaper than Google. They have not lowered their tile prices in years, for example. And on geocoding and some other APIs they give out poor results compared to Google. Do they have competition? Cloudmade went in some car-related direction. Mapzen never managed to have a real business plan.

And your "excellent small providers"? Yeah, Andy may be able to create some bespoke solution for you if he has time, and Geofabrik can wrangle some host- it-yourself setup onto AWS, but it's still very true that OSM themselves don't have a good story on a lot of mapping needs. You can either browse their web map with unusable search or download the 38GB database, and that's about it. No wonder many businesses just pay Google rather than dive into the rabbit hole of OSM.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I believe that OSM should deliver data, and not a service because it's extremely data-demanding.

Although I have to say that since OSM offers data, they could make an effort into providing good exports of that data, with better segmentation and choice of format. You should not have to download planet.osm or use some overpass API. The choices are very limited, and offering data through XML is insufficient.

</comment><comment><USER46> I would love to mirror OSM including all the data, the rendering and the website. Is there a way to do that?

I can get the data[0], but is there some guide or container image that includes all the rest that is needed in a working condition?

[0] [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm)

<comment><USER17> There's some guides for setting up tile rendering at [https://switch2osm.org/](https://switch2osm.org/)

It doesn't entirely make sense to mirror the editing api, unless you want to fork OSM. And I guess a lot of the user data isn't really readily available.

If your goal is to help the project you might consider running a tile node [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/Tile_CDN](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/Tile_CDN)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> That is tl;dr

I got criticised when I was a young coder for writing long rambling emails and articles. Now I am older I see why. Too much info in the world, I don't have time to read that although I am interested in why this person thinks openstreetmap is in trouble, but man a wall of text. This is why scientific articles have extracts at the top, bulletpoints work well too.

</comment><comment><USER48> I wouldn't mind seeing a two-tier approach, with authoritative municipal data as a base (see [https://openaddresses.io/](https://openaddresses.io/) for an example of collecting a large number of sources and normalizing it) with user- submitted edits on top.

</comment><comment><USER49> I attempted to do an offline map with OSM/Mapbox/etc. I found out that it's a major bother even if you're willing to pay someone for the data.

Project got canceled so I don't have a final opinion, but i'll avoid OSM next time...

<comment><USER50> We use Esri for rendering vector tiles and it works well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I personally believe that world needs a "wikipedia" for maps, not another hard to understand tool or technology. Yes. Technology matters of course, but not everyone is an engineer or entrepreneur.

</comment><comment><USER52> Re: the issues with moderation, I sometimes wonder if Wikipedia were trying to start from scratch in the last few years... would it work? With all of the trolls and bots, easy access it might have died hard and early.

 _One of the most significant technical problems with OSM is the lack of a review model, that is for a change to the map to be staged and then reviewed before being applied. Not having this functionality caused ripples of problems throughout the system, some of which I 'll discuss here._

Moderation is expensive, and Wikipedia got by initially with a pretty minimal degree of it, then ramped up as they got bigger. What if they'd been slammed by modern trolling at the start?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's an interesting question of how much flexibility you give people at the beginning vs as a project matures, but I'm looking at the situation with OSM pragmatically, that is to say "What OSM needs to do now", rather than "What they should have done".

The problem of both bad edits and vandalism are very large (much like Google Mapmaker) and other measures we've put in place, such as changeset comments (which I helped develop) and vandalism tools don't seem to cut it.

<comment><USER22> What about some kind of automated approach to validation? A major difference between OSM data and something like wikipedia is that, unlike wikipedia, at least some of the OSM data verifiable. A street somewhere, __does __exist, in a particular spot. There must be some way to croudsource validation.

<comment><USER53> Ultimately it comes down to the resources to create such a thing, right? There have been some successes with crowdsourced validations such as Facebook's translation efforts (although I think in that case it was merely a component of the process). And it would rely on a volume of edits that OSM may not have. There may be 1000 people ready to verify the location of the Statue of Liberty, but probably not the location of every building in a remote area being mapped for HOT.

Mapbox has built the start of a validation framework, and they have done very cool stuff. Of course then they get criticized for "forking" OSM. There are definitely valid criticisms there, but it seems like there's no way to win.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Is there a real hurdle in patents on map graphics held by the major mapping companies and national organisations?

Could a goal of being truly open and complete, be incompatible with the interests of privacy, national security even?

If community involvement is lacking, I immediately thought about the cimnunies who have real interest in mapping and particularly free open mapping, such as conservationists, residents of small towns concerned about planning and in my home Sussex county, hikers always fighting losing out to farming interests over ancient byways.

But these constituencies need tools. I would immediately donate to such efforts if I knew they existed. Or a corporate like ACDSystems, who publish Deneba Canvas which while sadly lost adrift far from the software I remember, incorporated superb GIS and technical drawing capabilities. This would be the kind of marketing that traditionally worked very well, tools and support for local news stories, which use to run a long while anyway.

</comment><comment><USER55> CTRL+F street complete

Nothing. Even though you've commented on my post. Guess, it would have got in the way of the flow of negativity. Same goes for maps.me.

<comment><USER56> This sounds like it was meant as some kind of direct message to emacsen. Do you want to explain to anyone else what you mean?

<comment><USER55> He already commented recently under a repost of his former article. I've pointed out the good things about OSM.

He proceeded with answering to my comment but completely ignoring the content of it while advertising this piece to come. I'm still unable to find those good things in this article which supports my theory of overdrawn and almost(?) total negativity and ignorance of the good aspects of OSM.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> contact email below

<comment><AUTHOR> You can email me at emacsen at emacsen dot net</comment></comment>


Microsoft appoints Scott Guthrie new Cloud and Enterprise chief - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-appoints-scott-guthrie-new-cloud-and-enterprise-chief-7000025973/ <comment><USER2> This is likely the first of many personnel moves at Microsoft. ScottGu is favourably looked upon by the dev community so this move is likely to be well liked by the .NET, Azure, ASP.NET, and Windows Phone coders out there.

Congrats and hope this means even greater things to look forward to with the changes happening at Microsoft.</comment>


Lawrence Lessig stops blogging - <AUTHOR> http://lessig.org/blog/2009/08/announcing_the_hibernation_of.html

<comment><USER2> 3 years ago?</comment>


Makers of the flash version of the Great Gatsby release source - <AUTHOR> http://www.nesplayer.com/interviews/greatgatsby/

<comment><AUTHOR> and Link to the source

<https://bitbucket.org/charliehoey/gatsby></comment>


Show HN: Auto-detect users' calendar from email address - <AUTHOR> http://email2calendar.milelogr.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Author here.

FWIW, I wrote this because I couldn't find anything else out there that did it. I'd be more than happy to use something someone else has written that accomplishes this task.

For more context, see the question I originally asked on StackOverflow:

[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10391111/can-the- underlyi...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10391111/can-the-underlying- email-provider-be-determined-from-an-email-address)</comment>


Portable MRI promises to provide immediate diagnosis in virtually any setting - <AUTHOR> https://news.yale.edu/2020/09/08/portable-mri-can-detect-brain-abnormalities-bedside <comment><USER2> This is really cool technology, as a neuroradiologist anything that helps decrease time/cost and increase availability of imaging is a big win.

It should be clarified, though, that this machine uses a very weak magnetic field compared to traditional MRI, and while they are doing neat things to improve image quality, the resolution of their images is still far, far inferior to a standard 1.5 or 3 tesla magnet. This study does not compare to traditional MRI, just shows that it is feasible to deploy in a real clinical setting and that abnormalities can be detected. It should not be assumed that this cheap and portable technology can replace standard MRI for most indications.

That aside, I hope we get one at my hospital!

<comment><USER3> I may be MRI ignorant, but even if the Teslas are lower, if the radius is smaller (say, can only fit a head or arm or leg), does that make up for it?

I understand MRIs are largely a compromise. Organizations will buy only 1 or 2, and therefore buy one that will fit all but the most obese patients, to the imaging detriment of anyone/anything smaller. Or is that all wrong?

<comment><USER4> No. More teslas are needed for more signal to improve the signal to noise ratio. And there is a lot of noise with portable non-shielded MRI. The only way to compensate for this is by having bigger voxels (3-5mm per voxel rather than the standard 1-2mm), or repeat scans and perform averaging. The more drastic way is to do funky image reconstruction with compressed sensing or deep learning.

The wider bore does indeed come at a cost. You have more geometric distortion and a less homogenous magnetic field at the edges of the bore. Also, you will need stronger magnetic gradients to form image, causing more energy disposition (i.e. Heating the patient) and higher probability of peripheral nerve stimulation (PNS, involuntary muscle twitches due electric fields induced in the nerve caused by MR gradients).

<comment><USER5> To add to this comment, use of strong gradients also slows down scanning When you hit SAR limits. The SAR has to be brought down with pauses between scans, reducing gradient amplitudes, reduced resolution or shorter echo trains. It's really painful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Here is the device if you want to see a picture of it: [https://www.medicaldevice-network.com/projects/lucy-point- of...](https://www.medicaldevice-network.com/projects/lucy-point-of-care-mri- device/)

<comment><USER7> This looks small enough that it might just be possible to keep it in an ambulance, which would be an absolute game changer for treating stroke.

Stroke treatment medication must be taken IMMEDIATELY to avoid permanent brain damage, but there is a chance that the medication will kill you depending on the type of stroke, and the only way to find out what kind of stroke it is is with MRI.

Being able to treat stroke before a patient is MRI'd in a hospital will be a massive benefit for humanity.

<comment><USER8> I basically want to say the same thing as u/lostlogin said about CT for determination of what stroke it is, but maybe add some details.

You're basically looking at ischemic vs hemorrhagic stroke. Ischemic stroke can get tPA or thrombectomy (within a 4.5hr window based on current data). We're a bit more limited with hemorrhagic stroke, but some surgeries are successful (clipping, coil embolization, etc).

From most studies, the sensitivity of noncontrast head CT ruling out a hemorrhagic stroke (most likely due to an aneurysmal hemorrhage) is around 98-99%.[1] These tests are _fast_ , take maybe 2-3 minutes, and the entire hospital will move heaven and earth for a stroke alert.

Why is this important? Because you're essentially limited by transport to the hospital. The MRI in ambulance will save you maybe 20-30 minutes at most. It may help some, sure, but I don't think it would be as massive a benefit as you would expect.

You could argue that we should be administering tPA en route to hospital, and that can certainly be debated. I would say that the risks of tPA administration are pretty high, and should be done while in a hospital to manage any adverse effects such as hemorrhage. Maybe if we develop better safer clot busting tools we could improve morbidity after stroke.

My vote would be to increase preventative care, so that people stop having as many strokes. It would likely be more cost effective in the long run, but I'm no economist.

P.S. your fun fact for the day is that hospitals generally lose money from strokes and tPA administration. The real money is in procedures like thrombectomy! And maybe live close to a stroke center if you're at high risk (diabetes, hypertension, coaguable)

[1] [https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.115.011386](https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.115.011386)

<comment><USER9> > increase preventative care, so that people stop having as many strokes.

How is that done?

<comment><USER8> Off the top of my head: Increase access to primary care Encourage behavioral change in people that help prevent disease (stop smoking, or don't eat sugary foods, etc) Increase treatment affordability for preventing disease Add on cheap treatment options if patients fail the above (more aspirin, statin, metformin, etc)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This makes me happy and sad. Happy because this is some amazing technology that will have immense benefits.

Sad for a selfish reason. I spent several years working to make a portable MRI device and ultimately failed. I do wish it had worked in our lab, but am extremely happy to see it working for humanity.

<comment><USER11> Most people won't even try!

<comment><USER12> Most people that try will fail. Fortunately, the more people that try, the more likely one attempt will succeed.

<comment><USER13> And the ones who succeed are usually just the luckiest

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is very cool.

I'm reminded of the work of Mary Lou Jepsen / Openwater, who have been attempting to leverage commodity consumer imaging technology and machine learning to create personal MRI-like 3D imagers orders of magnitude less expensive and more accurate.

This is all the current information I've been able to find on the project, looking forward to seeing how it progresses:

[https://www.openwater.cc/technology](https://www.openwater.cc/technology)

<comment><USER15> Her tech is very promising. They have apparently undergone initial FDA certification for device classification, so I'm also very curious to see how they progress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> My partner's sister could've potentially been saved if this existed already. They could've moved the MRI to her instead of needing to move her to the MRI, which couldn't be done. It's difficult seeing technology that could help save someone's life come out after its too late. I hope this becomes widely available and it saves lives.

</comment><comment><USER17> The man behind this and other fascinating technologies is Jonathan Rothberg, a modern day Leonardo.

[https://www.jonathanrothberg.com](https://www.jonathanrothberg.com)

<comment><USER18> I found it interesting that his parents founded Laticrete (according to Wikipedia), a well-known construction material company. He was born into a family that quite literally builds things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Great story about Jonathan Rothberg's current project, creating a rapid at- home COVID-19 test: [https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of- technology/jonathan...](https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of- technology/jonathan-rothbergs-race-to-invent-the-ultimate-rapid-at-home- covid-19-test) (or [https://beta.trimread.com/articles/37232](https://beta.trimread.com/articles/37232))

</comment><comment><USER20> "Clinicians operating in areas outside of major metropolitan areas need rapid diagnostic imaging results especially in cases of stroke, which requires immediate treatment to prevent death or poor outcomes for patients. For instance, the portable device could be used by doctors in poor countries, rural areas, or even in ambulances to differentiate between stroke symptoms caused by a brain bleed or blood clot. "

Sounds pretty neat. I wonder why this is only a brain thing, something about size constraints maybe? I have no idea how these things might work. Can they make a mini-mri for the rest of the body?

<comment><USER21> MRI has a pretty unique value proposition for the brain, as it can detect and discern things that other modalities (CT, US) simply cannot. Even a poor quality MRI (essentially what this is) provides more information within the brain than a high resolution CT. Many of the brain pathologies are also very time-sensitive. So a good place to start.

Elsewhere in the body, MRI is less useful, and isn't really a workhorse as it is with neuroimaging. (Except maybe joint imaging.) Most emergent problems are detectable via those other cheaper, faster, & less onerous technologies.

Your guess about size is also likely correct; the positioning of the antenna/coils and relation to the magnet are very important (especially with a weak magnet) and much more challenging/variable if you're thinking about the range of abdomen sizes (for example) versus head sizes.

<comment><USER22> Do MRIs have any value in replacing physical examinations (prostate, colonoscopy) with diagnostic imaging? My understanding is that assay testing is getting better, but still no replacement for the physical procedures I mentioned.

<comment><USER23> For measuring spread of disease like prostate cancer imaging can be really helpful, see: PSMA PET-CT. I could imagine a world where imaging is really cheap and agents were safer, in which case we might opt to use imaging instead of physical exams, as they would offer way earlier detection. But for now the additional radiation (not present in MR), cost, risk, time, etc makes it a no go for standard of care screening.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> GM adverted a hand held MRI years ago. Where is it?

I fear perverse economic incentives are holding the industry back. Case in point, the X-Prize funded medical tricorder. Amazing work was done by many teams, but we see no end product because the FDA over regulates (to support entrenched business interests).

<comment><USER25> I was high school age in the early 80's when MRI machines were first getting deployed and I was very interested in the technology back then. I remember reading books/articles that claimed that within a few years there would be in- vivo NMR machines in doctors offices which would replace many blood tests. I've often wondered why that future never materialized. Is there some major technical obstacle that wasn't understood then, did the economics turn out against it or is there some other reason ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Now this is the stuff we all should be working on, instead of chasing yet another billion dollar photo sharing app

</comment><comment><USER27> Looking at the pictures and I can't be anything but glad and hopeful. Having recently gone through (as in, last Friday) a head MRI scan, the process definitely leaves for something to be desired for.

I don't suffer from claustrophobia normally, but being stuck in that long tunnel for half an hour really did a number on me. The head coil was a bit too snug and pressed on my chin making it harder and harder to swallow and panic started to set in halfway through. If it was just my head in a device (with clear sides nonetheless!) I would've been a-okay for longer times as well, but being in that tunnel with only my soles peaking out of it, I had a very real fear of choking and/or getting stuck.

Sometimes modern medicine feels very brutal and scary and it takes a toll on my mental wellbeing. I've put off on getting my gastroscopy for a few years now because again, I don't exactly enjoy feeling like I'm choking and dying.

Anyways, this was just a tangent. Keeping my fingers crossed that I have a tumor in my pituary, would be the best thing to discover in my situation. I'll find out on Friday!

<comment><USER28> I could breathe normally during my gastroscopy. No pain though it felt strange. The MRI was a lot more taxing mentally, and I had some of the same issues as you. Best of luck.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Did I miss something, or are they talking about this and not showing a picture of it?

Two clicks farther in to get to: [https://www.hyperfine.io/](https://www.hyperfine.io/)

</comment><comment><USER30> For the curious who want more information, I found a paper discussing the general issues involved in "low-field" MRI:

[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmri.26637](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmri.26637)

For their purposes, "low-field" goes down to 0.25T, which is still somewhat higher than the machine linked here, but they extrapolate values of some of the parameters all the way down to 0. (And it seems like the general principles are mostly the same.)

<comment><USER4> There is some renewed interest in low field scanners. Past four decades have mainly been pushing for higher fields to improve SNR. But low field has a few advantages:

\- no need for superconducting magnets. This is a big win for developing countries and portable systems.

\- better geometric accuracy. While not an show stopper as it can be corrected for, but low field exhibits better geometric accuracy as you move away from isocenter, which is of extra concern with e.g. radiotherapy applications.

\- more patient comfort as lower field strengths need less strong gradients thus less chance for PNS (involuntary muscle twitches due electric fields induced in the nerves)

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Can ultrasound do brain scanning ... we cannot do mri of everything due to cost and hard to arrange (even ct scan I were told is much easier to arrange but I stick to the ultrasound vs mri). but we do ultrasound more frequently. If that help, that helps.

When people are hunger As cannot afford food to tell them meat can also be food may not make sense.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I posted this article. You might have noticed that I made some minor changes to the title before I posted it to HN. I believe this improved the likelihood that it would be read by others on HN a tiny bit. I encourage others to do a little creative editing of titles, but only if it improves the titles of their posts in some way.

</comment><comment><USER32> If you're interested to learn more about how MRI works. I recently found an excellent video on the topic. It's 42 min and quite technical, but that's what I like about it.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQegSF4ZiIQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQegSF4ZiIQ)

</comment><comment><USER33> Awesome awesome awesome! Medical advancements here will be fantastic.

We perhaps need to be preocupied with some ethical delimmas in the near future [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecvv- EvOj8M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecvv-EvOj8M)

</comment><comment><USER34> Isn't the resolution on these governed by the magnetic field strength (like the nuclear spectrometers in chemistry?) That's why MRI machines are so big; the magnets are insane (and (edit)[involve] a bizarre material: liquid helium!)

<comment><USER10> Yes, but that's mainly because they use FFT for reconstruction. So you need extremely clean data.

If, however, you use some significantly more sophisticated signal processing, you can side step this requirement.

<comment><USER35> Like what?

<comment><USER36> Maybe [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_sensing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_sensing) ?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Man would I had that 8 years ago I could have fed neuroscientists a decade worth of data.</comment>


Hacking Startup School: A tool to optimize your networking this weekend - <AUTHOR> https://www.talltreelabs.net/startupschool

<comment><AUTHOR> We have 66 registered users and ~2200 answers to ~90 unique survey questions. The survey system is adaptive so that the most important questions are served to you first. You'll get a list of matches of interesting people to meet at Startup School, and the system will email you once a day with the current list of your top matches.

Anyone can pose a question to the community (and please do!)

Please note below any feature requests.</comment>


Bellerophon: Generate AWS CloudFormation templates from existing AWS resources - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/arminhammer/bellerophon <comment><USER2> This looks like an interesting project, but what makes it different from the CloudFormer tool already provided by CloudFormation?

On a slight aside, among the many features I wish CloudFormation supported, one of the biggest is the ability to create a new stack and fold existing resources into it, including highlighting but allowing any discrepencies. If you didn't develop with CloudFormation from the beginning (or perhaps are migrating from Terraform) then having to move your environment "sideways" into a new stack can be pretty painful.

<comment><USER3> CloudFormer requires you to run an EC2 instance to get access to your environment. I never understood the reasoning behind that, other than least- common denominator within AWS.

Since they already publish a decent SDK and have decent APIs this approach makes much more sense to me - list your set of stuff via the API you're already using, then munger it into CFN format.

<comment><USER4> Take that temporary EC2 instance as a container just there for that half an hour to get the job done, they fix software installation, access rights etc. on behalf of you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Is there a provider-agnostic (at least between AWS/GCP) option out there to do something similar?

On GCP, I'd like to convert running instances/existing resources to a Deployment Manager profile. Has anyone written a provider-agnostic descriptive language (maybe Hashicorp's Terraform works for this?) that can be translated to CloudFormation or Deployment Manager? (This seems like something Bitnami must have internally...)

<comment><USER6> Terraform if you're greenfield, but doesn't currently support creating configs from existing state.

No one has written a provider-agnostic language yet.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Bicyclists, What Does "On Your Left" Mean? - <AUTHOR>

As a runner, I am curious to know how the bicyclists understand this phrase: does it mean "Please move to the right." or "I am overtaking on the left, do not veer into my path"? <comment><USER2> As a bike commuter on dual-use paths I use it to mean "I am overtaking on the left, do not veer into my path". Moving to the right if easy would be courteous but not necessary.

I use it in this way when passing both pedestrians and other bikes. I have a bell I sometimes use for other bike commuters but almost always use the call out for pedestrians. I have enough room by quite a large safety margin, I'll pass bikes with no warning.

ETA: If you are running or biking 2 or 3 abreast, I may actually mean "move right", but that is a fairly rare occurrence...

</comment><comment><USER3> Assuming you're running in your lane and not weaving, I mean "I am overtaking on your left".

</comment><comment><USER4> When I say it, I'm just trying to advertise my presence and intent, "do not veer" is stronger than what I'm thinking. Especially because on the paths I ride it usually results in surprising the pedestrian, so I am already giving them lots of room.

</comment><comment><USER5> Whenever I hear that, I usually just freeze and do not move in either direction :-)

</comment><comment> xkcd-sucks "I'm passing you on your left side, please react appropriately"

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thanks to one and all.</comment>


Ask HN: What web browser and search engine combo do you use for personal use? - <AUTHOR> and why?<p>Mine are Firefox and DDG but I was thinking of giving Startpage a try. <comment><USER2> Firefox and DuckDuckGo as well. I occasionally use the Startpage !bang '!s' if I can't find something with DuckDuckGo.

</comment><comment><USER3> Chrome Canary on my desktop. Mainly Google but sometimes Bing or DDG. Edge and chrome stable on my phone and Google or Bing</comment>


PHP-ML – Machine Learning Library for PHP - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/php-ai/php-ml <comment><USER2> Huh, I'm glad that php is getting some love.</comment>


How to Use PowerShell Splatting - <AUTHOR> https://redmondmag.com/articles/2019/01/16/how-to-use-powershell-splatting.aspx <comment><USER2> So wait. when would you use that?</comment>


The blessing and curse of people who never forget - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160125-the-blessing-and-curse-of-the-people-who-never-forget?ocid=global_future_rss <comment><USER2> I can rewatch every movie/series I have seen in my mind. I always thought that is normal until someone told me it is not. I can't even describe how it works, but basically I can see the movie and forward/rewind. Since I watch a huge amount of movies/series (1500+ movies alone) there is a lot in me head I guess. Can be fun though, if you are bored and got no tv/computer/phone around, I can close my eyes and watch something on demand :)

I also can remember most days in my life like this. As stated it can be a burden, those unhealed wounds of dramatic experiences that you live through over and over again in every detail.

<comment><USER3> I'm the same way, but with classical music. I can "listen" to pretty much any piece I've ever played. And in fact I often can't stop it. The second a person or conversation or situation loses my interest, the music turns on in my head, and I'm no longer paying any attention to you. I'm listening to a Brahms quintet or a Beethoven symphony. I hear it just as clearly as if it were playing over speakers.

It's actually kind of a problem. I don't in general have a particularly wonderful memory. It's just that I constantly reinforce.

<comment><USER2> Interesting, I listen to music all day, all types of genre, lot of classical pieces too, but I can't recall them like I can with video. But I am a very visual person in general, I also see what I think about, even words or numbers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I have a friend that has a very good memory and it is kind of a problem for him.

He can recall all character, places names, etc. from books he read years ago, while I cannot recall even the plot.

But when it comes to bad situations in the past he also recalls them vividly. So he has a hard time forgetting abut old deeds. Sometimes he is rambling about a problem he had with a guy he worked with 5 years ago, or even about something that happened more than 10 years ago.

> "It is like having these open wounds – they are just a part of you," he > says.

I understand that it is this way for him, but it is sad that some what trivial memories get in his path to be happy. And I don't know how to help him.

<comment><USER5> Does your friend spend a lot of time alone? As someone who struggles with the same thing, I find that being alone a lot of the time makes me reflect on the past a lot and old wounds tend to fester.

Some people are thinkers in that way, and while it can have its upsides, it certainly has downsides. I think spending more time laughing with others, relating to them and having fun is better than thinking all the time. But personally I'm in the process of finding people I can relate to better.

<comment><USER6> I have anxiety disorder and you have highlighted an insight of mine after examining my condition for a while. The moments that my condition flares up uncontrollably are the moments when I've spent a significant amount of time "thinking". When I spend time with friends I genuinely care about and can relate to, I get so distracted, I almost feel like a normal person.

<comment><USER7> I've been there. Now that I'm back to normal, I love my thinking time, but during the anxiety times I never wanted to be alone.

<comment><USER6> Great to hear that you were able to come out on top. I'm taking medication right now, exercising and taking it one step at a time at the moment. I would love to get rid of it entirely but I'm starting to acknowledge that unless there's a revolutionary break through in medical science then I'm stuck with this condition for the rest of my life. Just have to figure out ways to cope.

<comment><USER7> Maybe, maybe not. Here's the obligatory 'what worked for me'.

I looked at a bundle of research and treatments like cognitive behavioral therapy appeared to have better long-term outcomes and after 10 years or so of depression and several years of anxiety I had never tried it.

So I gave up the 'I'm stuck with this forever' mentality and started retraining my brain to not have the anxiety response. After roughly 6 months of work I was able to shake it and I'm not on SSRI, Benzos or whatever.

IMO anxiety is recursive, having anxiety gives people anxiety and trains you to have an anxiety response (see hebbian learning). Getting out of that loop is a huge deal.

<comment><USER6> Thanks! Always love hearing stories like these. I definitely do not want to get stuck on medication for the rest of my life and of course having a 'stuck with this forever' mentality is hardly useful.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I remember the Jill Price case. Turned out she was obsessively going over all her memories, non-stop, all the time. So hers was a normal brain, just trained very well to retain memories by unending repetition.

I just skimmed the article, but findings seem no different -- only more people are found to have this condition, and it actually has a sciencey name now: HSAM.

I wonder why BBC is running a story about this again?

<comment><USER9> > I wonder why BBC is running a story about this again?

The BBC's science reporting is just shitty. They will repeat essentially any claim that is told to them. Off the top of my head, I can recall:

* They ran an article about a "three-headed frog" discovered by some schoolchildren, when in reality it was obviously three frogs engaged in amplexus. [0]

* They ran an article about an entirely forgettable mathematical crackpot who claimed to have "solved" division by zero. [1]

* They ran an article about blondes going extinct. [2]

* They ran an article that was essentially the plot of H. G. Wells's The Time Machine. [3]

[0] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/3534361....](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/somerset/3534361.stm)

[1] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/d...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml)

[2] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2284783.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2284783.stm)

[3] [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6057734.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6057734.stm)

<comment><USER10> I know content is king... But seriously this is just sad.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > Veiseh even thinks his condition has made him a kinder, more tolerant > person. "Some say 'forgive and forget', but since forgetting is a luxury I > don't have, I need to learn to genuinely forgive," he says. "Not just > others, but myself as well."

This is probably the best insight of all here. A lesson for all of us to remember.

<comment><USER5> Very true, he's likely also keenly aware of how his words and actions can have long lasting effects on others.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I wonder if this is nuanced at all. I seem to recall every plot twist, gizmo, and character in Science Fiction that I read, it takes any joy out of re- reading that book because I already know it front to back, but other books on the fringes, like fantasy or the harry potter series? I can re-read those enjoyably.

</comment><comment><USER13> I used to have an very accurate and detailed memory, but as I have got older it is no longer as good. Once upon a time I would have bet my life on the accuracy of my memory, but now I would not. It totally sucks, but I guess that is part of ageing.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have always assumed these were some kind of scam but I looked up Jim McGaugh in wikipedia and his credentials are well established. It's truly hard to believe.

</comment><comment><USER15> It's such an interesting article. I do see the association of the "open wounds", if used wisely it can prevent an individual from repeating the same error. I would love to see this app that the researchers are trying to release.</comment>


Ask HN: A Unix-y Windows - <AUTHOR>

I'm interested in exploring a Unix compatibility layer on Windows. I know about Cygwin, mingw, Interix, NT subsystems, but I am not an expert. I also don't think any of these really fit my goals.
Basically, I'm looking at this scenario: when devs are looking to buy a new computer, the default is Apple, since it is the only consumer friendly system with first class Unix support. I'm interested in what would happen if I brought that to Windows.
In order to be appealing, such a system would need to appear to be part of the system, not some weird compat layer thrown on top. I think this is possible but I want to hear anything from someone that has any more expertise with any of these layers, the NT kernel, or anything else related that might help me decide whether this is worthwhile exploring or not. Mostly just looking for pointers that will help me with my research. Thanks. <comment><USER2> Some distros of Linux are consumer friendly systems with first class UNIX support.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I get that, but a lot of people use Windows for some reason or another. I'm not really interested in trying to get the masses to use Linux.

A lot of open source projects at least start out running on Linux and OS X, because they have a lot more in common, and then if someone has the time and desire, they'll port it to Windows. I'm not really happy with that.

This is not as much about technical challenges, since there are obviously Unix layers for Windows, it's more about consumer perception.</comment></comment>


Open source maintainers are exhausted - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/23/open-source-sustainability/ <comment><USER2> Yes they are and most work for free. We should stop doing that.</comment>


We Asked Prosecutor If Health Insurance Companies Care About Fraud. They Laughed - <AUTHOR> https://www.propublica.org/article/we-asked-prosecutors-if-health-insurance-companies-care-about-fraud-they-laughed-at-us <comment><USER2> "...they pass the costs off to you."</comment>


Hello World This Is the New Lifehacker - <AUTHOR> http://lifehacker.com/#!5753509/hello-world-this-is-the-new-lifehacker <comment><USER2> I want to scratch something to death. Someone QUICK, port Stylebot to FireFox so I can remove that awful static sidebar! (Otherwise it looks fine!)</comment>


Net neutrality advocates have concerns about T-Mobile's new unlimited data plan - <AUTHOR> http://www.dailydot.com/debug/t-mobile-one-unlimited-data-net-neutrality-eff/ <comment><USER2> The proposed plan limits tethering to 2G speeds. It would cost $15 to restore LTE tethering. Current plans include LTE tethering. This would be a huge increase in price, e.g. users on the current $65/6GB plan would see their monthly fee increase to $70 + $25 (turn off BingeOn) + $15 (turn on tethering) = $110, a 60% price increase.

The new plans take effect on Sept 6 (?). If you want an existing contract-free plan and don't need device upgrades in the future, it may be possible to get on the cheaper plans now and retain grandfathered status, if you are careful not to make any changes, _ever_. More: [http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/08/18/t-mobile-one- plan-c...](http://thenextweb.com/opinion/2016/08/18/t-mobile-one-plan- complete-nonsense/)

 _" Tethering is a lifesaver for a minority of users, and forcing them to go out-of-pocket for respectable data speeds is insulting and unnecessary ... Nobody wants to watch 480p video on a Super AMOLED or Retina screen, and 2G tethering is laughable; I'd rather the company have simply added a 2GB cap on LTE tethering ... this is like an airline giving you unlimited loyalty points as a subscription, but restricting you to flights of 500 miles or less unless you paid another premium. T-Mobile didn't reinvent data plans, it simply re- thought how to up-charge its customers."_

<comment><USER3> Charging for a tethering feature is a business practice with precedence and history in the wireless industry, so it's unlikely the EFF or other advocacy groups will be able to do much to nullify a charge to enable LTE tethering.

Wireless carriers are starting to take pages from fixed/cable provider playbooks. Charging based on different access speeds of access (SD vs. HD video, or 2G vs. LTE tethering) is a time-honoured tradition with a long and profitable history. With more converged providers (i.e. wireless and wireline as a single corporate entity) and more effective cross-communication between departments, it was only a matter of time before spectrum became "fast enough" to start applying wireline strategies.

I'm wondering about the BingeOn charge. The spirit of net neutrality is that content must not be discriminated against, _unless_ the customer agrees (i.e. opt-in). T-Mobile has clearly shown they have an appetite testing gray legal waters, which turned out to be a decisive short-term competitive edge. Clearly, they're willing to go further in testing the definitions and intent of "opt-in".

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> What's up with the reverse blaming headline? "T-Mobile's new unlimited data plan raises concerns about net neutrality"

</comment><comment><USER5> Ads on this page bring my i7 to its knees on Firefox.

<comment><USER6> With uBlock Origin, it loads OK on Firefox on my phone. Ads...</comment></comment>


Depending Less on Structure - <AUTHOR> https://dev.to/lmatteis/depending-less-on-structure-5bl8 <comment><USER2> This article's premise doesn't hold up, IMO: arguing there's "no point of contact" between pieces of code doesn't make sense when one part can write something like (from the article):

        sync({ block: 'manualUpdate' })

To me this is semantically similar to an INTERCAL "COME FROM"; in a system that works like this, it's impossible to determine the runtime behavior of a single part without understanding everything that might be fiddling with execution.

Furthermore, there's another point of contact between the related pieces of code - they need to agree on the string-typed values like "manualUpdate" above.</comment>


Oil Shell's Parser Doesn't Worry About Aliases and Prompts - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> (psst, think you forgot the link.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Indeed, thank you.</comment></comment>


GEOS for the Commodore 64 - <AUTHOR> http://lyonlabs.org/commodore/onrequest/geos.html <comment><USER2> Wow, this brings back memories of when I was just a kid with a Commodore SX-64.

GEOS amazed me, although it was the 300 baud modem and getting access to QuantumLink that literally changed my life.</comment>


A Submerged Monolith Near Sicily: Evidence for Mesolithic Human Activity - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X15300535 <comment><USER2> On a similar note, see also Doggerland (the large, submerged peninsula off the north-west coast of Europe, of which the British Isles are the only surviving above-surface relics today):

[http://education.nationalgeographic.com/maps/doggerland/](http://education.nationalgeographic.com/maps/doggerland/)

A lot of previously-inhabited territory -- presumably fertile lowlands! -- was inundated as sea levels rose after the last ice age ended, around 9500-8500 years ago.

<comment><USER3> That's the first time I've ever seen the Netherlands described as "higher ground"!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The most important Mesolithic site is Göbekli Tepe

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe)

It is truly revolutionizing our understanding of mesolithic culture.

</comment><comment><USER5> It could be that the flood myths (Atlantis, the floods in the bible and a lot of others) come from this time.

That would suggest that oral knowledge survive thousands of years (a little more than DVDs). It's pretty remarkable.

<comment><USER6> Not just thousands, try tens of thousands.

For example, Australian Aborigines still have stories about the huge, man- eating lizards. It was considered just a standard myth until we discovered fossils of Megalania, a huge lizard matching the description, that went extinct soon after humans came to Australia.

Closer to the actual sea level rise topic, tribes of coastal northern Australia still have names and relatively precise description of land features (mountains etc) that are now underwater, but were land until 9k years ago.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> All these worlds are yours, except Sicily. Attempt no contact there.

</comment><comment> rational-future I've done some diving in the Black Sea and have stumbled upon a number of structures that looked like human-made artifacts. They are near the shore lines as they were before the end of the last glacial period. I'm personally 99% sure there was a somewhat advanced civilization at that time.

<comment><USER6>
      Look up Black Sea deluge theory. Black sea was supposedly flooded (a bit later than the actual sea level rise from the ice melting after the ice age), around 7500 years ago, with levels rising up to 70m and turning it from a freshwater lake into Black Sea, and increasing its size 1.5x-2x.
      That event is one of possible explanations for the spread of what became Indo-European language/culture/people group, which a good deal of us belong to.
      Until the evidence for the Black Sea deluge was found, the Indo-Europeans were theoreticized to have come from area north of Black Sea (it is still so), but I think the initial push came from the now flooded areas.

<comment><USER8> Easier to read:

Look up Black Sea deluge theory. Black sea was supposedly flooded (a bit later than the actual sea level rise from the ice melting after the ice age), around 7500 years ago, with levels rising up to 70m and turning it from a freshwater lake into Black Sea, and increasing its size 1.5x-2x.

That event is one of possible explanations for the spread of what became Indo- European language/culture/people group, which a good deal of us belong to.

Until the evidence for the Black Sea deluge was found, the Indo-Europeans were theoreticized to have come from area north of Black Sea (it is still so), but I think the initial push came from the now flooded areas.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I didn't see any discussion of this in the article, but could it have just fallen off a ship, maybe from the Romans or something? It looks like the only dating they've done so far is of the area it was found in, not the monolith itself.

<comment><USER10> It seems to have been made from stone from a nearby structure. It would have been underwater by the time anybody with ships came by.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> OK, read the paper.

Don't get too excited. From the sound of it, it _could_ be an artefact, those _could_ be harbour walls, but they could also be looking at some nice old karst that happens to have weathered into rectilinear shapes.

<comment><USER12> ...except for the regular drilled holes in the monolith?

<comment><USER11> They're not regular, from the paper, they're holes. You get holes in rocks for all sorts of reasons, from biogenic processes through to inclusions of softer or soluble rock.

Just saying that at this stage it's all quite light on evidence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I wonder if it's black.

</comment><comment><USER12> This is old enough to have been Neanderthal?

</comment><comment><USER14> _9350 ± 200 year B.P._

B.P. == Before Present [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Present](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Before_Present)

</comment><comment><USER15> Should have started with a service-oriented architecture, then their civilization would have never collapsed.

</comment><comment><USER16> [http://xkcd.com/1190/](http://xkcd.com/1190/) ?</comment>


Scott Adams Has Some Ideas for a Calmer Internet - <AUTHOR> https://www.wired.com/2019/11/geeks-guide-scott-adams/ <comment><USER2> "He lays out two such rules in his new book, Loserthink. His first proposal, which he calls the "48-hour rule," states that everyone should be given a grace period of a couple of days to retract any controversial statement they've made, no questions asked. [...] His other idea is the "20-year rule," which states that everyone should be automatically forgiven for any mistakes they made more than two decades ago—with the exception of certain serious crimes."

</comment><comment><USER3> > "We live in a better world if we accept people's clarifications and we > accept their apologies, no matter whether we think—internally—it's > insincere," he says.

That's absolutely laughable. Why would people accept apologies they think are insincere? And how would that possibly lead to "a better world," except for people who spout nonsense then pretend they're sorry later?

<comment><USER4> > Why would people accept apologies they think are insincere?

Societal engine lubricant. There is too little time for every squabble to matter.

<comment><USER5> I wish someone could teach me how to eject, with grace, from a conversation that's degrading into pettiness.

I don't care about winning or losing. But I don't know how to say, "whatever, moving on" in a way that itself doesn't get interpreted as further pettiness.

<comment><USER6> > I don't care about winning or losing. But I don't know how to say, > "whatever, moving on" in a way that itself doesn't get interpreted as > further pettiness.

I struggled with this for years. In the end I just settled on saying "Respectfully, I think we will need to just agree to disagree. No hard feelings." A few times I've had to drop the "This conversation is going nowhere good. Let's talk about something else."

Being direct is under-rated. I find people aren't offended when you do it, as long as you are maintaining some basic amount of social decorum / grace.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Scott Adams is a living personification of the sunk-cost fallacy at work.

</comment><comment><USER8> According to Adams, we should forgive him for creating Dilbert more than 20 years ago. It's not him anymore.

People change. And Adams is now certifiably insane.

<comment><USER9> Glad someone said this. So weird that he has gone so deep off the deep end.

<comment><USER10> He's always had some very strange ideas. He wrote a book that had the central premise that we are all made of the dust of a dead god.</comment></comment></comment>


Learning to love computer codes - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-10999734

<comment><USER2> "Computer Codes"? Please, at least talk to a programmer when writing an article about programming.

<comment><USER3> I thought it was some less informed person talking about encryption when I saw the article.

Journalists (who won't read this comment anyway, c'est la vie): When you do an article about something you know little about, talk to someone who knows more than you.

This works for just about everybody who knows little about a subject.</comment></comment>


Fed rate hikes don't affect the US dollar the way we think - <AUTHOR> https://qz.com/1378352/fed-rate-hikes-dont-affect-the-us-dollar-the-way-we-think/ <comment><USER2> Imagine you are in an empty room with a digital screen on the wall. The screen says 76°F. Over the next few days, you feel the temperature drop and rise over time, and the value on the screen always changes accordingly. You know that the real temperature and the value on the display are related, but you do not know whether the display is a thermostat or a thermometer.

Fed rate effects are difficult to measure for the same reason that the thermometer/thermostat problem exists. You cannot disambiguate cause from effect when monetary policy is used as a control system.

<comment><USER3> That is a case of correlation is not causation, and it's essentially one of the biggest problems faced by macroeconomists and policymakers alike (alongside... many other fields, of course). Unfortunately there's no way to determine causality without extensive experimentation, and more unfortunately monetary and fiscal policy do not allow for the same playgrounds that other fields have access to. We _know_ certain policies _work_ , but for those what's then missing is to what extent.

<comment><USER4> It is also hard to measure the value of a dollar. Since it is also the unit of account.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The author doesn't seem to understand that currency moves are based on predicted future rates, not current rates. By time a rate change happens, it is often expected and the currency value rises (or falls) until the change is actually announced, at which point it can paradoxically drop (or climb) due to the market now predicting the next move. The change is said to be "priced in" when this happens. So what actually moves the currency values are the economic indicators upon which the Fed bases its rate decisions, not the rate decisions themselves (unless, of course, a rate decision is announced which is a complete surprise).

<comment><USER6> CME has a simple web tool to see the market's expectations about future rates, for those interested: [https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/interest- rates/countdown-to...](https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/interest- rates/countdown-to-fomc.html)

E.g. a September rate hike is expected with a 99.8% probability by the market. For December the probability is 79.8%.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Just printing money does not mean inflation is a result. For inflation to occur you also need money velocity.

What the FED has done is print a whole lot of money, but that money has largely stayed within the big banks and wall street.

Not as much has moved to the real economy because money velocity is low. Though inflation has picked up in the last few years. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V)

<comment><USER8> Can u justify your first scentence? In my head (did not study Econ) x is all the actual economic value in a country and it's divided by the money supply. You increase the money supply in a fixed moment (print money) that ratio changes and stuff is worth less or costs more (inflation). So yea please explain how simply printing money doesn't cause inflation

<comment><USER9> If I understood him correctly: if the money never actually moves, that is, enters the economy properly, then it'd have no effect on it. ie a savings account (to you, personally) is the same as never having received the money in the first place, until the day its spent. If you never spend it, then it may as well not existed.

In the same fashion, the printing of money has no effect if no one ever sees it. The more people who deal with it, the larger an effect it will have

<comment><USER10> Your statement is headed in the right direction, but misses some important subtleties. Money in the bank, even if you never spend it, can have velocity because the bank can use that deposit money for fractional reserve lending. Also, and very importantly, velocity has a multiplier effect, so small changes can be more important than one might intuitively expect. If you dramatically increase money supply, but velocity dramatically decreases, depending on the relative amounts of both, you may have inflation or deflation. In other words, both aspects supply and velocity are important.

This ties into the infamous parable of the Greek hotelier, where you can see that it is the movement of money that has the greatest impact on the economy:

It is a slow day in a little Greek village. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the village, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna. The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit. The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything. At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I was expecting more historical evidence to support this argument. I'm not saying I have an opinion on whether it's wrong or right, but I would like to see how the dollar performed during previous rate hikes.

</comment><comment><USER12> To HN: Is there a body of economic theory or a good text that separates inflation of the base currency from some other term that captures its relative value to other currencies?

<comment> T-A Big topic with plenty of proposed answers, none of which works particularly well. There is a summary of common ones here:

[http://www.economicsdiscussion.net/foreign- exchange/theories...](http://www.economicsdiscussion.net/foreign- exchange/theories-foreign-exchange/theories-of-exchange-rate-determination- international-economics/30637)

<comment><USER12> Thanks! To all the others too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The premise of this article does not make sense to me. Why would anyone think as the author does?

Increasing rates is attempt to control price inflation, not to control exchange rates. There is a link but, it's not straight nor is it the most important factor.

You should look at the balance on current account, and export and import price indexes, net investment flows etc.

</comment><comment><USER14> The supply-siders have been saying this since Reagan was in office.

Jude Wanniski's wrote similar statements in his newsletters and book: "how do you expect to make something more valuable by making it more expensive" (the interest rate being the price of money).

Looking at actual rates, not targets, the overnight target is a blunt instrument that doesn't always follow the target very well. And even when it does, the exchange rate relationship seems to take long vacations.

Art Laffer had similar views IIRC from a paper he did looking at the trade- weak dollar connection.

</comment><comment><USER15> I think the scale of the fiat currency and economics in the US allows for sectors to fluctuate wildly without impacting others.

I also think the current state of economics is a complete unknown to everyone who tries to influence it.

Fortunes can be made and lost over things like bitcoin where chaos seems to be the main driver of value.

Interesting times to say the least.</comment>