Myth of the Brown Recluse - <AUTHOR> http://spiders.ucr.edu/myth.html <comment><USER4> Working in a midwest auto repair shop, we get our share of spiders and such. Brown recluse spiders are just that, reclusive. Ive seen them take up residence in old tire piles mostly. Ive rarely seen a recluse, but our shop bathroom has a small window where a particularly large hobo spider has set up shop. We named him Biggie because, well, its a huge spider that just sits on a web all day munching bugs and judging your poor dietary standard. We used to assign cancelled tickets to biggie. at some point, biggie had a small workstation and even an entry in our timekeeping software (for testing.)

So at some point he was just gone. We assumed he moved onto some nicer shop with tastier bugs, but as it turns out, biggie met his demise at the hands of our new tenant Goober, a chubby possum who made it through the window on a cold night and managed to scare the piss out of one of our front office sales folk.

This was completely unacceptable, shouting at a colleague at work is tantamount to casual harassment. So, we did what any coworkers did. We took Goober out to eat by luring him back outside with grapes and raisins. After he was out for the day, we built him a little workstation, fashioned some personal protection equipment, and even made goobers toolbox. It holds all our weird porsche/BMW bolts and nuts that, as far as we can tell, are in hard enough spots on the vehicles that only a German possum could install.

<comment><USER5> This made my morning. Thank you.

<comment><USER6> Mine too. Thank you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've lived in Portland OR, Mid MO, and the Kansas City area. In mid-Missouri, the brown recluse is the standard house spider. Pretty much every spider in my house there was a brown recluse. I had a weird bruise-y/necrotic bite on my hip that I assumed came from one that got in bed with me. It healed up fine without any medical intervention even though it lingered for awhile. I suspect a lot of people get bitten over the span of their lives but the bites aren't really noticeable. Spiders get in your bed or get into your clothes sometimes. It takes a bit of work/luck to get a recluse bite. They're not aggressive and they're not looking for trouble.

The West Coast, in my experience, has very little on the Midwest when it comes to spiders and bugs. In Oregon I was blown away by the lack of bugs. I could leave my doors and windows open at night and nothing seemed to come in. Unreal! The only major thing Portland seemed to have on the middle states is slugs. Waking up in the morning to find slug trails in my kitchen and in the dog bowl was a weird experience. Live and learn!

<comment><USER8> I live in the Santa Barbara area, and bugs are way less, probably because of how dry it is compared to the midwest. In mid MO I've seen ticks large enough to keep as pets!

However, we do have a lot of black widows. They aren't super aggressive towards humans, but they tend to go in places that you only sometimes visit (the back of that one drawer in your toolchest you don't use very often, woodpiles, Christmas decorations in attic or garage, etc.) I put on gloves before going to any of those locations because I'm told even though it's non- fatal to healthy adults, it's supposed to be excruciatingly painful.

<comment><USER9> Don't forget to check if they're in your gloves too!

<comment><USER10> Yep, I put my hand into a glove once only to find a spider there. Despite my general affection for spiders, that was not a happy moment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What happens is occasionally you get news about some poor soul with multiple amputations because of necrotic tissue, and people assume "must've been a brown recluse" because it's a suitable scapegoat.

And of course, the fear of the brown recluse is that they don't really look like anything. We all think we can recognize a black widow, but a brown recluse just looks like a typical house spider.

That said, I'm suspicious a bit about comments how spiders never bite you. Last year suddenly the yellow sac spiders in the neighborhood got aggressive - I have no idea why, they're normally harmless house spiders all over my area, but I and a friend of mine both got bit by them completely out of the blue without warning. Spider just walked on and chomped. He told me he'd heard from others similar stories recently... I assumed it was some kind of distemper infection or something seasonal since normally they're harmless.

It stung like hell and left my arm sore for a week.

</comment><comment><USER12> Yep, tons of spider in Missouri... I used to be somewhat freaked out about brown recluse spiders as a child but now as an adult I could care less. There is one with a web setup in my basement that I walk by every day, I just let it be since there is a pile of dead bugs under the web.

I remember one kid in high school got bit and had a nasty necrotized spot on his ankle, other than that I have only heard of a few people who have been bit.

As far as black widows go, I have only seen/caught a couple of them and never heard of anyone being bit by one.

<comment><USER13> I've had 2 bites from the brown recluses.

The first was on my upper lip, sent me to the hospital, before the necrosis it swelled up closing off my mouth and nose so I couldn't breath. The "core" was extracted and I was left with minimal scarring, but I keep a mustache to cover it.

The second bite was on my big toe. Woke up one morning with my toe swollen to the size of a small orange. When I went to the hospital for that one, some rotting had already started. My 350 pound father and two nurses held my leg down as the doctor cut into it. They were no match, I knocked them all to the ground when I felt the blade. I now have a dime-sized spot on my big toe.

I still don't fear them, and recognize the good they do. I try to avoid spiders now though ;).

<comment><USER14> How do you know that it was a brown recluse? I'm not disputing, I'm just wondering if it was assumed based on the injury or if you were able to find the actual spider.

<comment><USER13> Just going off what the doctors told me.

A friend later told me that MRSA sometimes mimics the same symptoms, but both occurred during summer, and not around other kids or in a hospital setting.

<comment><USER15> Unfortunately doctors tend to over diagnose a lot of things as brown recluse bites[1]. So, unless he specifically tested for it, there's a really good chance it wasn't a brown recluse bite.

[1][http://spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html](http://spiders.ucr.edu/necrotic.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I live in Texas. There are brown recluse here. I don't really fear a spider since it doesn't seem like they are all that aggressive to people. The worst part of spiders to me are when I walk through a web. Ive had a bad spider bite that caused great swelling and some necrosis, but I don't know it was a brown recluse. I personally have a nasty fear of wasps, which I cannot rationally explain other than I think they look mean and evil and can fly at you. Here in Houston, we have 2 types that are especially aggressive. The worst is the yellow jacket, since they are great at building a hive in the ground and their small size means you don't see them until its too late in many cases. The other is the Mahogany/Red paper wasp. These guys are usually ok most of the year, but as summer turns to fall, they get a bit aggressive and start wanting your food. They are also relatively large and make pretty big nests.

Even through they are great mosquito killers, I won't let a nest live near a place I frequent. We also have cicada killer wasps, which are very large and very inquisitive. That combination usually has me spazing out at least once a year as they dive bomb me...

<comment><USER17> IMO, you haven't lived in Texas until you have gone into your office (or other room in your house) and found a large black tarantula in the corner of the window. Try sucking that up into even a powerful brand-new Dyson vacuum cleaner and watch the legs move around like crazy because all you did was piss it off.

But frankly, the scorpions bother me a lot more. Especially when they like to hide in your laundry, and drop down onto the floor at night from your attic. You can hear them when they hit the floor.

These days, I sit back one row from a guy we call "Spider Man", because his screen saver is nothing but giant pictures of spiders, 24x7. That will give you arachnophobia faster than anything I know of.

Growing up in Oklahoma, I met plenty of Black Widow and Brown Recluse spiders. My biology teacher collected them. He was extremely annoyed with me one day when I was cleaning some stuff up in the back of the room and the biggest brown recluse I've ever seen decided to take a quick trip up my arm. I managed to catch the thing and put it in a glass container filled with a clear liquid, and he looked at me like I was an idiot and told me "You know that water won't kill those things, right?" To which I replied "Yes, that's why the container is filled with alcohol." He really wanted that thing for his collection, and was quite miffed that I had actually managed to kill the sucker, before he could get his hands on it.

The bite from a brown recluse or a black widow may be worse than a black tarantula that is bigger than your hand, but in my experience, the effect on your bowels is much larger with the tarantula.

<comment><USER18> As a Texan as well, I've been lucky to have never have been bitten by a tarantula. I've never heard what you are saying about bowels before regarding being bitten. What I have heard is that the bite itself hurts a lot more vs a black widow or brown recluse but the venom is pretty weak comparatively.

<comment><USER17> In this case, bowel evacuation has less to do with being bitten by a tarantula and much more to do with literally having the shit scared out of you on seeing this thing inside your house.

Yup, it's a real thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> As a native-born Californian, I'm glad to hear it.

As a long-term, transplanted resident of Virginia, however, I'm keenly aware of the statistically small, but non-zero chance of running afoul with a (suspected) brown recluse. In 2014 I spent six days in the hospital after being being bitten on the ankle.

Extensive courses of I.V. antibiotics were used to combat the necrotizing aspects of the venom. Along with a number of different topical anti-bactrials.

Unfortunately, because I did not capture the spider which bit me, it was impossible to definitively point to Loxosceles as the culprit, thus complicating treatment.

Recluse spider bites can be (relatively) painless, initially, and it could have happened while I was out hiking in the woods and stopped for a rest, or earlier, while at my home.

<comment><USER20> Not that I don't believe you (the word 'necrotizing' sends shivers up my spine) but since you didn't catch the spider itself, are there any other species of spider that may have been the biter?

<comment><USER21> I live in the Bay Area in a warmer microclimate. We've got widows, sizable orb weavers, and supposedly tarantulas (although I've never seen one and have my doubts). I've twice been bitten by _something_ while either under my house or in my basically wild yard and gotten nasty infection. One bite was on my elbow and become necrotic. It was treated only with antibiotics. It now looks like I took a bullet. The other was on my neck and required surgery. Although I had some mild symptoms suggestiong a black widow bite, they were also symptoms of infection, so the doctor concluded it was not a widow that bit me. Anything that can pierce the skin can give you a nasty infection.

<comment><USER22> > Although I have my doubts

I take it your never been to Mt Diablo during mating season then? The place is filthy with tarantulas. Just a random YouTube but at certain times of the year, the road is covered in them: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g4w5UbvaYy0](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g4w5UbvaYy0)

<comment><USER21> Cool vid. Nope, never been there, but I want to go now. I'm in the hills of the peninsula. I've done a ton of hiking near my house but I've never found one.

<comment><USER22> Yeah, as far as I've found they stay in the East Bay. I've seen one in the Oakland Hills, but my friends that are big bikers have relayed disgusting (to me) stories about all of the tarantulas they encounter near Mt. Diablo and out that way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> There's this concept that any time you see a new story where the topic is your area of expertise, it's baffling how completely inaccurate the story is.

And then we all keep reading stories about areas in which we aren't experts, and it doesn't occur to us that are likely equally misleading.

Because if we all factored that in, we wouldn't believe any news.

And I guess we feel better thinking we know what's going on, rather than acknowledging we are in the dark.

<comment><USER24> I really wish I could tell some system who I designate as authorities for given subjects.

And then I could see the news annotated by the authorities I chose. Or by the people they acknowledge have authority over those subjects.

Linus Torvalds is an expert on Linux.

John Carmack is an expert on computer graphics.

Tiger Woods is an expert on Golf.

Al Gore is an expert on Climate Change.

I don't care what Tiger Woods thinks about computer graphics. I don't care what Linus Torvalds thinks about Golf. I don't care what John Carmack thinks about Climate Change.

But if those people that I've identified acknowledge that other people or groups get it "mostly right," and those people have annotated some news article, I desperately want to see their commentary!

And I'd also be curious to learn who I think anti-experts are. When the people I think are authorities endorse an article on that subject, I want to see who condemns that article. And I want to read their commentary for myself. If I think they're loopy, I can flag them as anti-authorities.

And yes, when there's dispute among the people I consider authorities on a given topic, I'll be especially interested to read the debate.

I want to say that I probably trust people who work at the Washington Post to cover world news. I probably trust people at MIT, Cornell, Stanford to cover science. Eventually I'll discover which economic school most agrees with my take.

Yes, this may re-enforce the bubble that I'm in. But like I said, I really do want to read the BEST arguments from people who disagree with my school of experts, too. Flame wars are a giant waste of time. I want to flag a comment, "I disagree, but this is the most persuasive point someone has made." Highlight THOSE comments. Even better are the comments where I can say, "You really turned me around on this one."

I want to flag a comment from either side as, "Hey, can people from both sides please comment on this? This seems like it's interesting."

I want to have Line Item Veto. To comment on specific parts of an article, highlighting them, to say they are for sure true, or they're for sure false, etc.

Let the media have the chance to revise and correct their article. Hell, even fixing spelling and grammar mistakes is valuable.

Note that I desperately want this same kind of annotation for research papers on arXiv, etc.

I think I'd want it to work something like Google SideWiki, or maybe Disqus?

Won't someone please implement this?

The democracy of upvotes and downvotes on Reddit and Hacker News is a signal, but it can be gamed by bots, and NOT ALL OPINIONS ARE EQUAL.

I don't want the system to TELL me who experts are. Maybe it can suggest experts. But it should damn well include Alex Jones (even though I detest him), and Fox News (even though I think they're the most incorrect major news source).

If Jon Stewart or Dan Rather have something to say about an article?! You can bet your ass I want to read it!

Hell, even linking me to a video of when Stephen Colbert talked about this topic last night adds some value.

I read a blog post from a pediatrician once that I thought was excellent. He lamented roughly, "If you don't trust me to be an authority on vaccines for your child, then I don't know what kind of relationship you think we have." I agree with that. It's not that I think my pediatrician is RIGHT. It's that I grant that they have more authority on the subject than I do, and my world view is to trust scientific authority / consensus. Even though that's ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEE OF CORRECTNESS. I get that. But of the ways to try to understand the world, I prefer to view the world through the lens of scientists. And since we have divisions of labor, and I do not have enough time to become an expert myself, I want help in understanding how the experts I place trust in, how they view the world, and news, etc.

<comment><USER25> Sorry couldn't help but LOL and sorry for getting off-topic.

>Al Gore is an expert on Climate Change.

Might need to rethink that. He's a fundraiser and tv personality. Think 'evangelist'. It's not evident that he understands complex systems or probabilities better than say, Taleb. AFAIK, so far all his historic projections have been incorrect. This is the danger of 'celebrity'. Similar with Neil DeGasse.

That said, I do think it's interesting, what Taleb said about "you should go to a surgeon that doesn't look like a surgeon"...if one can be successful in a field without succumbing to stereotype-aligned but inconsequential norms, they might just know what they are saying, other wise, they'd be the first ones thrown out of the boat by colleagues.

Do be careful about reinforcing your own bubble. Much of what you said would have you doing that, vis-a-vie media-based indication of what is 'an expert'.

<comment><USER26> > It's not evident that he understands complex systems

It's not evident that he understand evangelizing either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Al Gore. The world wold be a much better place if he had won the 2000 election. But the one image that sticks with me is the scene in "An Inconvenient Truth" where Al is being driven around in the back seat of a plush town car. A more tone-deaf image in that context is hard to imagine.

<comment><USER27> I also found that humorous/obnoxious. He is _literally_ a limousine liberal. (I say this as someone with a liberal streak myself.)

<comment><USER24> Russell Brand, of all people, caught my attention one time. He said when he criticized the flaws of capitalism when he was poor, people called him jealous. When he criticized the flaws of capitalism when he was wealthy, people called him a hypocrite.

They're all ad hominem attacks. But when he's criticized for being both too poor, and for being too rich, and his message didn't change, it's particularly obvious that people just don't want to hear his position, and will do anything to discredit him.

<comment><USER28> I agree with your sentiment and like your example, but in fairness to "the people" criticizing him, it's probably different people in each instance of criticism. We personify groups of people, and then treat them as fungible units of a universal (if hypocritical) collective. Individuals will criticize everything, if given enough time and resources.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> rv-de > How hard is that Arkansas guy laughing who was sleeping on top of 6 brown > recluses?

I get the point and I second the sentiment and intent of the article. But then again that Arkansas guy must be very brave nonetheless when he isn't worried about six brown recluses living next to him while sleeping - considering that the spider definitely is venomous and a bite can trigger necrosis.

<comment><USER29> We don't laugh that hard, I have been bit twice, and both left sizable scars. Although, if you know you have been bit and get treatment within in a day or two it shouldn't be that bad. --Arkansan

<comment><USER30> It is better now that we have running water and don't have to use the outhouse. That was a bad scene for brown recluse bites, in particular with respect to the typical bite location.

<comment><USER21> As a kid, we once visited a cabin and my mom sat down on the toilet and was surprised by a spider. Ever since then, I always check for spiders under the seat before I'll sit. If I had had to use an outhouse, I probably would have squated over the seat like they squat in some countries...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Growing up in TX my sisters and I were sufficiently scared to death of "fiddlebacks". I've never known anyone to be bitten but my wife got a nasty bite from something about a week ago. Big red swollen spot on her ankle and it immediately made me think of the Brown Recluse bite stories i was told as a kid. I asked my wife to keep an eye on it and if it looked any worse in 24 hours we're going to the doc. Fortunately, the swelling went down and things turned out fine.

<comment><USER32> I was likely bitten on the ankle by one when I was 12 after walking around in ivy. It's hard to tell exactly what it was, but it swelled up like half a baseball, the doctor removed a chunk of skin/flesh an inch across (it mostly fell off) and I couldn't walk for a couple of weeks.

I hated spiders for years after that... they don't bug me much now, but windows and recluses will spread (if fed) and can be dangeous. It's best to keep them out of your house and garage area. Seen lots of widows, but never a recluse in California.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> In GA, I am wary for the black widow and the brown recluse, the former when indoors and the latter outdoors. I've not spotted either in months honestly, but I never stop being wary.

As far as CA natives being super freaked out about it...meh? I don't blame you. Fiddler spiders are scary looking and after seeing some of the wounds online, it's quite the eye opener.

I have never personally met someone in either GA or AR that had been bitten by either of these spiders, so if you lean towards the uncharitable side of things, I have a somewhat irrational fear caused by reading things in HTML docs downloaded from a remote server in cyberspace.

Edit: grammar

<comment><USER34> Both the widow and the recluse are quite timid. Widow bites are generally not dangerous unless you're elderly, very young, or immunocompromised. They'll swell and be red for a while, but it's not life-threatening. Get near a widow, poke it, and it cowers in fear.

The recluse's bite isn't itself dangerous - it's the necrotic bacteria that they carry that can get into your bite, which IIRC happens in about 20-25% of bites. If they bite at all - they're more likely to run away terrified than bite, but it's definitely something to be worried about.

However, if you find them, do not kill them because they are cannibals. If other recluses smell a dead one, they'll come to eat it. A recluse infestation is a very difficult job for exterminators for this reason.

I was more worried about the (biting!) gnats in GA. And the snakes. And the mosquitoes.

<comment><USER35> How interesting! Ive known several people with brown recluse bites and I always assumed the (rather unpalatable) necrosis was from the venom, not some cofactor like bacteria.

Upon reflection, it makes total sense. The presentations they had would be identical to serious infection, ie visible red marks on the skin tracing blood vessels and following the blood flow.

<comment><USER36> Yeah it does... [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loxoscelism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loxoscelism)

Sphingomyelinase D

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> On the flip side, increased awareness of the little buggers is probably better for bite victims.

The mother of one of my childhood friends in chilly New Hampshire went to the hospital with a rash a few years back and several visits emerged missing a chunk of her back about the size of a tennis ball. Having never seen one, the doctors never even considered she might have a dangerous spider bite.

<comment><USER38> My father in law developed a nasty necrotic wound that everyone assumed was a brown recluse bite. But it kept getting worse and worse no matter what treatment options they tried. Turned out he had leishmaniasis. Of course no one considered that because they were blinded by the common explanation.

Now, you could argue that maybe had the doctors known more about leishmaniasis he would have received a diagnosis faster. However, I imagine the situation played out about as well as one should hope. Certainly in Bolivia (where he picked up the disease) they should be more aware of the common causes of things than the uncommon. They should not be inspecting for brown recluse bites when there are rarely any just as we should not look at every necrotizing wound and investigate it as an uncommon case of leishmaniasis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Relevant link: [https://abc7chicago.com/man-uses-blowtorch-to-kill- spiders-s...](https://abc7chicago.com/man-uses-blowtorch-to-kill-spiders-sets- parents-home-on-fire/4546565/)

The Fresno Fire Department said a man who was house-sitting for his parents set the home on fire after he used a blowtorch to kill black widows...

<comment><USER40> "Mission accomplished"

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> > wood louse spiders (Dysdera crocota)

Small typo. Is Dysdera crocata, not crocota. I used to play with those things annoying it with a little stick in a mix of fear and admiration. Children love predators so It was like finding a lion under a rock. A terrific brick-red and cream animal with impressive extra big fangs. Very "pokemonesque".

</comment><comment><USER42> I like how aggressive the tone of this was "Although people are _free to disagree_ , this opinion has come about after more than two decades of _constant research_ ".

</comment><comment><USER43> The Myth of the Myth of the Brown Recluse

I have lived in California for 25 years and have never heard about the Brown Recluse living here. I guess I don't watch enough local news, but I think that Rick Vetter, being in the Department of Entomology at UC Riverside, is going to have an extreme over exposure to people who think the Brown Recluse is a problem. The random people who send him spiders are worried about the Brown Recluse, but 500 in say 30 years is not very many. If 1 in 500,000 people are super worried about these spiders in California, then he might interact with most of them. The essay is of course a bit tongue-in-cheek, but this problem of the Myth of the Brown Recluse is probably only experience by a small number of people.

<comment><USER44> Anecdata: I live in Oregon, and have always been mildly concerned about visiting California because I thought brown recluses lived there.

I genuinely have no idea where I got the idea.

<comment><USER45> Further: I used to live in Oregon and was given the impression that I might encounter them there (in Oregon).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Media hysteria is a very real danger to science and logic in general. Their concern is more about driving traffic to sites or getting viewers to increase ad revenue, not necessarily telling you the truth if it isn't particularly sexy. I see parallels with the onslaught against a lot of initiatives in the crop science sector. Playing to the emotions of people rather than the facts is a very dangerous spiral for us to fall into.

</comment><comment><USER47> I briefly lived in Chile, where the Chilean recluse is considerably more venomous than the brown recluse. I met one man who was bitten by one on a neck vein. The damage to his heart now requires life long medication. Because of that, I'm going to continue to be afraid of brown recluses, despite living several degrees north of their known range in the US.

</comment><comment><USER48> Growing up in California, I was always fearful of black widows. I had no idea the availability of antivenom was so great.

<comment><USER49> Black widows are not aggressive. They won't bite you unless you crush them or threaten their eggs. You can even pick them up and play with them without a bite. (Not that I would recommend testing their limits).

That being said, I do wear gloves when picking up firewood or moving stuff around my property, because if I grab one accidentally, that does crush them, which is exactly when they bite.

<comment><USER50> One of my parents friends had two black widows living in this small enclosed area of their backyard. The wife was a photographer and let them live their so she could take pictures. You could get within inches of them with a camera or whatever else, and they wouldn't even move

<comment><USER51> I have a couple black widows living in my basement. They each chose to live in a small crevice in a concrete wall. I can go watch them, but if my shadow accidentally falls on them, they hide as fast as they can.

Some people thinks it's crazy that I don't kill them, but they certainly aren't trying to hurt me, so I don't see why I would.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> My sis-in-law had a necrotic bite from a brown recluse that nearly required surgery to stop the decay. This was in the Midwest. One of the happiest points of moving to CA is not finding them on my pillow. Creepy little creatures. I haven't met anyone in 16y of life in CA that has heard of them.

<comment><USER53> > One of the happiest points of moving to CA is not finding them on my pillow.

Christ this thread is seriously nightmare fuel for someone who grew up in a country where literally no dangerous wildlife exists. I cannot imagine dealing with deadly animals on my pillow.

<comment><USER54> Where is the place with no dangerous wildlife?

<comment><USER55> The UK?

<comment><USER21> What about the Hounds of the Baskervilles?

<comment><USER56> Uncommon although might run into a speckled band here or there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> > Only a handful of specimens (less than 10) have ever been collected in > California and usually there is some connection between the spider and a > recent move or shipment from the Midwest. There is a great "awareness" of > brown recluse spiders in California mostly through a misguided media barrage > which is fed by a fear of the unknown and unfamiliar. I repeatedly have seen > the media in their "quest to seek out the truth" write completely > speculative stories about the existence of the brown recluse in California. > Unfortunately, the truth is not nearly good enough to sell news and > therefore, a speculative story is fabricated based upon faulty assumptions.

</comment><comment><USER58> What happens when you mix a brown recluse and a black widow? You get a brown widow. (Not really).

These [http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/URBAN/SPIDERS/brown_wido...](http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/URBAN/SPIDERS/brown_widow_spider.htm) things are all over SW Florida insofar as I can tell from the egg sacs littering my lanai. There's more to say about them - but not now, I feel bad about passive/aggressive threadjacking. I'll just leave that link here for my fellow Floriduhuns.

<comment><USER59> You're seeing those spikey looking egg sacs? I'd address that somehow. That's terrifying.

<comment><USER58> Yup. About 3/4" in diameter. They look like friendly little puffballs with soft spikes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> In a similar vein, supposedly a lot of "spider bites" are not spider bites (according to source): [https://www.livescience.com/37974-he-surprising-cause- of-mos...](https://www.livescience.com/37974-he-surprising-cause-of-most- spider-bites.html)

I've known people to theorize that many small welts are caused by spider bites even though they didn't see the spider or know when they got bitten.

<comment><USER60> If clicking something with a clickbaity name isn't your thing, I can save you a click. The cause is "more likely to be bites or stings from other arthropods such as fleas, skin reactions to chemicals or infections."

<comment><USER17> Bedbugs?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> I read a similar article to this a while back about lack of Brown Recluse populations in Michigan despite a healthy fear and misreporting of sightings.

<comment><USER62> As a Michigan resident and someone with severe arachnophobia, I'd like to read this article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> This is an odd claim. I live in Riverside where this article was written and found two brown recluse spiders in the last year. One outside by the front door and the second inside my bedroom. The tell tale identifier is the small violin shape in its back. They may not be common in California but they're common in my house in Riverside California just down the road from UCR.

<comment><USER64> You sure it's not one of the other violin species that were discussed in the article (loxosceles deserta, for example)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER65> Quite liked this jab """I repeatedly have seen the media in their "quest to seek out the truth" write completely speculative stories about the existence of the brown recluse in California. Unfortunately, the truth is not nearly good enough to sell news and therefore, a speculative story is fabricated based upon faulty assumptions."""

</comment><comment><USER66> There are literally two in my office right now under my bookshelf. If you have them, you don't find one of these, you find dozens.

</comment><comment><USER67> Yes I'm here in Kansas laughing. I've had a brown recluse walk down my arm out of my sleeve, and didn't get bit. Just brushed it off and stepped on it. Also my cousin has had several confirmed brown recluse bites. Yes they were painful disgusting etc etc, but didn't kill her or cause any life changing damage...

</comment><comment><USER68> my Uncle got bit by a spider. Don't know if it was a recluse.

He was getting dressed in the morning. Put his work pants on that were draped over a chair, felt a sting on his thigh and a spider fell on the floor when he ripped off the pant and shook them out. He had a hands width depression that was about an inch deep. This was after it was healed and completely scarred over. I don't know how big it was while healing.

This was in Arkansas though so smack dab in the middle of the territory on that map[0]

Helping some friends on a farm in West Virginia, their greenhouses would fill up with black widows in the early spring before they got around to cleaning them out for the first planting. 1000s of them in each greenhouse. Quickly learned that they are entirely harmless.

[0][http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif](http://spiders.ucr.edu/images/colorloxmap.gif)

</comment><comment><USER69> As someone living right in recluse territory, I'm constantly terrified when going into a closet to get clothes...etc, even though I see black widows all the time. Any time you're at the gas pump or in your garage, look around and you can probably find one.

<comment><USER70> Yeah, I was hoping that this article would talk about how Brown Recluse aren't actually dangerous (as I live in Texas), but instead it talked about California, and it appears Brown Recluse are still quite dangerous. I see them a lot.

Could we change the title to "Myth of the Brown Recluse in California" or something?

<comment><USER10> > I was hoping that this article would talk about how Brown Recluse aren't > actually dangerous

It does to some degree, with anecdotes of interactions with no ill effects.

Clearly it can cause severe health issues, but the vast majority if the time it doesn't.

<comment><USER71> It puts it more in the range of plane crashes. They're not _good_ , but they are _rare_ , even if you're flying on a plane regularly.

And then you have California, which is terrified of plane crashes, either that they might be in one or that they're in the middle of one right now, even though they never fly and have no need or intention of ever flying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Did people here read the whole thing? This is some good reading! "The whole state would be evacuated" if even one live spider, as opposed to an "ex- spider" were found. That is good stuff! This made my day.

</comment><comment><USER73> If people in the midwest are laughing, imagine how Australians feel.

<comment><USER74> Bemused

Redbacks can be fairly common but if you encourage daddy long legs and leave the house spiders alone you'll rarely find one. House spiders though can make you quite sick if you get bitten.

Sydney funnel web spiders are dangerous and aggressive - enough said.

White-tailed spiders that also get blamed for necrotic lesions but is likely bacterial are fast and tend to wander. They'll sidestep a shoe and jump at you before disappearing. I've spent hours upending a room after losing sight of one.

Most people though are more scared of huntsman spiders and they can get pretty big and move fast. There's a certain type that are thicker in body and will come at you. You think you have it pinned under the broom head and the next second it's racing up the handle jumping at you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> I live in Brown Recluse country. For a little over a year, I lived in an apartment _absolutely infested_ with Brown Recluse spiders. The entire block of apartments (i.e. units sharing one roof) had the problem. AFAIK, we were the only block at the complex with the issue. Early on in living there I captured several of the spiders and had them identified. I was terrified, to say the least.

When I say infestation, I mean it literally. It was very unusual to make it to bedtime without killing at least one Brown Recluse. The most we ever killed in one night was 15. We would wake up all hours of the night, turn on our phone flashlights, and scan the room for any lurking on the ceiling or walls. Usually, the midnight scans would bear fruit. To this day I wake up in the middle of the night and reach for my phone before remembering that I'm no longer in that situation.

One year and one week after moving into the apartment, I was bitten. One of the poor creatures found its way under my covers and into my shirt while I was sleeping. I rolled over on top of it and it bit me. The burn/itching actually woke me up shortly after and I was able to recover the spider from inside my shirt. I _absolutely panicked_ , rounded up my entire family to drive me to the ER at 3 AM (because surely I was going to go into some kind of shock or other state of impairment) and even called the doctor on the way. Halfway to the ER, the doctor called back. He told me not to panic, and that there was actually nothing they could do about it right this minute. He told me to go home, go to sleep, and watch the bite for any signs of infection/necrosis.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the best advice I've ever heard regarding Brown Recluses.

All in all, the bite amounted to little more than a massive mosquito bite. My body did have an allergic reaction (broke out in a rash head to toe) but it was honestly nothing like the horror stories. We moved two months later, but I'll never let myself forget the overreaction I presented and how silly it all was.

I actually started to feel that I was getting to know them. Brown Recluses are exactly that: reclusive. They want nothing to do with us. They are magnificent hunters and terrible climbers (this is how they end up in your bed: they fall). They tend to stick to the edges of the room and are the only spider I've ever seen with a distinct "stalk" instead of a twitchy walk. They're honestly beautiful to watch (as I used to often).

If you do have a Brown Recluse problem, don't panic. It took me over a year to get bitten while living in an actual nest of them and even then it was a freak accident. Buy yourself some of those rectangular glue traps and place them along your walls, behind furniture, and in the back of closets. Brown Recluses can be dangerous to children under the age of 7 and the elderly (which is why we moved promptly) so don't ignore them entirely. Learn to respect them for what they are just like anything else.

<comment><USER76> >>One year and one week after moving into the apartment, I was bitten. One of the poor creatures found its way under my covers and into my shirt while I was sleeping

OK, I think I'm going to step outside to get some air...

<comment><USER75> I know it sounds terrible, but it's honestly a rare thing. We never found one on our bed, ever. The first time I know of one being in our bed was that night.

I've spoken a lot with the Entomology department at a well-known university to try and learn as much as possible about these spiders. From what I've learned, Brown Recluse spiders actually have a hard time biting people (physically and mentally). They need encouragement - such as a life threatening situation - <USER2> even want to bite us. Even then, I've been told that they have physical trouble biting us hard enough to break through much skin and need help in that department as well (i.e. rolling/stepping onto one where the added force assists them in biting deeper).

The experience cost me about a half-tube of hydrocortisone cream but thats really it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER77> Oddly enough, even here in Oregon there's a persistent myth that we have those things.

</comment><comment><USER78> TL;DR: There are no populations of brown recluse spiders living in California.

</comment><comment><USER79> i love how sassy this articles is -- mostly borne out of anger on how stupid people are.

</comment><comment><USER80> Just saying that for many people "squish and ask questions later" is unrelated to how dangerous they are

</comment><comment><USER50> I've had people tell me that brown recluse don't live in Washington, and that it's a similar "myth", but one of my friends got bit by one in high school and ended up with a hole in his leg the size of a marble

</comment><comment><USER81> DRTS; (For those of you who didn't read, because... font too small) - <USER3> recluse spiders, in general, don't bite people unless you have less than 20/20 vision. In that case, you should run for the hills, esp. if you don't know how to zoom in the browser. A+ for content, but accessibility less so.

<comment><USER82> I believe it would be FS;DR

But, in case you are serious: CTRL++ to zoom in. CTRL+0 to reset to normal.

<comment><USER81> I know how to zoom, but many people don't. I normally wouldn't say anything, but that font is smaller than a baby recluse</comment></comment></comment>


TomTom ditches map updates for some sat-navs - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42859546 <comment><USER2> Some product descriptions continue to state that maps on the devices will update multiple times a year "for the lifetime of your device".

On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more."

Updates will be available for the lifetime, which is defined as until we stop providing updates.

(Unsure how to quote)

<comment><USER3> It's amazing how companies are able to get away with bullshit like this with virtual goods.

There was an article in our local newspaper about a dude who bought lifetime brakes for his Mustang in like 1970 from JC Penney (!). To this day, he's still getting free brakes, I think Firestone took on the business. With tech stuff, they would declare the lifetime to the be average lifetime of a brake pad!

<comment><USER4> _There was an article in our local newspaper about a dude who bought lifetime brakes for his Mustang in like 1970 from JC Penney (!). To this day, he's still getting free brakes, I think Firestone took on the business._

Can confirm as an ex-Firestone mechanic from shortly after Firestone picked up Penny's repair business (in fact, the shop I worked at used to be a Penny's auto repair). If a car rolled in needing brakes, and they had the lifetime warranty, we put brakes on it. I was never tasked with trying to find ways to wiggle out of it. Nope, it was "hey, mikestew, '72 'stang out there, check the brakes. It's lifetime warranty, so if it needs anything we don't need to call customer, just put it on and let me know what you did." And because a "lifetime" job required that the customer buy calipers and rotors in addition to pads, Firestone covered everything. Rotors are shot? New rotors for you, no charge! Caliper frozen? New caliper, on the house!

Haven't worked for Firestone in about 25 years, but we still take our cars there for lifetime alignment (I can do brakes myself). No bullshit, no fine print, take it in once or twice a year, no questions asked. And I'll tell you why Firestone doesn't mind: they'll more than likely find something else that needs work (not trying to rip you off, folks, that's just the nature of mechanical things) and make some money off that. My personal observation was that folks also never took it back for an alignment until it needed tires, and therefore money in Firestone's pocket. IOW, Firestone's bean counters were counting on customers not actually using the warranty, and they were right.

Tilley clothing is another one who honored the lifetime warranty on two of their hats we had for twenty years. Filled out the form, paid eight US dollars shipping, new hats in a few weeks. My only complaint is that the new hats are...different. I dunno, maybe after some break-in they'll be like our old ones. Tilley claims to be like the Craftsman tools of old: if you're in possession of a hat, you're covered under warranty even if you didn't buy it. "Put it in your will!", they say. I assume that's true, because they never asked us for any proof of purchase.

<comment><USER5> There's a huge market out there for honest auto repair shops.

I'm a former mechanic, and usually astonished at what most shops get away with.

I've seen $1200 tune ups. (Six cylinder Ford Vallant, and the shop owner told my friend business was slow that week, and he needed money.)

To a Franchise owner at Aamco (San Rafael, ca) who told he the tranny was going into limp mode when he test drove it, and then brought me into the office to look at the cutaway model. (It was never even driven because he didn't have the key. Plus--when he realized I knew the lingo; he started kissing my ass. He knew he was caught. He was a new franchise owner, but that's no excuse.)

My point is there's some real business opportunities out there. An honest shop is gold. Its a very tough business though. I've even met some people who sware their "guy" is the best. They are usually the ones who are being taken the most.

<comment><USER4> _To a Franchise owner at Aamco_

You know, I've been seeing investigative reports about Aamco's crooked dealings since I was a kid watching Morely Schafer on _Sixty Minutes_ , and I am not a young man (in fact, I think Morely's dead now.) So I am continually amazed when I see Aamco in the news _again_.

It's not like there isn't good money in running an honest shop. I wasn't a mechanic for all that many years, but of those years I've known one mechanic that I wouldn't send my sister to. The rest are just working class dogs like the rest of us, trying to make a nice middle-class living. The other Firestone I worked at while I was going to school, as a "tire changer" and not mechanic, the manager was a every-time-the-doors-are-open church goer, and lived it. There would be no ripping off of customers in that shop. That shop made plenty of money.

So I dunno, maybe transmissions are a different business. And there will always be those for whom the good living of auto repair isn't good _enough_. Sure, I make a ton more writing software, but there are days I'd go back to turning wrenches. Much like software, someone has a problem, and I got a great deal of satisfaction out of solving that problem for a reasonable price. Personally, I never saw any compelling reason to be dishonest.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> How any company thinks it can continue to make money selling maps is beyond me.

I have just driven the length of West Africa from Morocco to South Africa[1] using Open Street Maps loaded onto a $50 Garmin GPS[2]. The accuracy and completeness of the maps is nothing short of _staggering_. The tiniest town in Burkina Faso, Gabon or the DRC has _every single_ road, walking track and intersection, perfectly mapped. It's the same for all the countries.

On the entire 40,000 miles I can count on one hand the number of times the OSM map did not perfectly reflect the real world. It happened so infrequently it was always cause for celebration when it did.

[1][http://theroadchoseme.com](http://theroadchoseme.com)

[2] [http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/](http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/)

<comment><USER7> It's ~$800 per year for map updates for one of my cars, a Nissan Altima SV (and that's just an SD card that, of course, must be installed by a dealership). As you might guess, I've never paid for them. In the worst case, the girlfriend (who actually drives the car), just uses the Maps app on her iPhone when she needs it.

Contrast that with Harley-Davidson who is notorious for "nickel and diming" and charging outrageous amounts for otherwise regular products. I can just go to their website, download a file to a USB flash drive, plug the flash drive into my motorcycle, and it'll update everything -- including the GPS navigation system and maps.

It just seems backwards to me. I probably wouldn't pay _anything_ for map updates for the car (and I don't for my truck, either), although I might if they were cheap enough. OTOH, I absolutely _would_ pay for updates for the motorcycle but even H-D doesn't charge for 'em.

As long as navigation is available for free on everyone's mobile phones, I'm not sure how automobile companies expect to make much money from map updates.

<comment><USER8> It boggles my mind that Harley-Davidsons come equipped with USB ports, and require software updates. How do the grumpy old-timey bikers deal with the modern complexity in their bikes?

<comment><USER7> Heh, well, it's (mostly) optional. You can buy a new bike off the showroom floor and ride it for years without ever updating anything or, really, even _using_ any of that new-fangled techno-electro-logical crap. :-)

Modern Harleys, however, have a _lot_ of electronics available, if you want to take advantage of them. I've got a touch-screen unit that includes GPS (including turn-by-turn navigation), SiriusXM satellite radio, Bluetooth (for phone calls or playing the music on my iPhone through the bike's very well- equipped "Infotainment" system), a USB port (for updates and playing MP3s), a security system, a garage door opener, and so on. Other models might have CD players, CB radios, etc. The lower end/cheaper models typically don't have much more than a speedometer. Some of these are, easily, $50,000 bikes, though.

The software updates are dead simple, too. Download a file to a USB stick, plug it in, turn the ignition to accessory, and... wait. It shows the progress/status on the screen and takes maybe 10 minutes from start to finish. Someone like me (more "tech-y") usually gets the USB flash drive set up when an update comes out and then we all just pass it around when we get together for a ride or something. Others don't care and don't bother ever updating.

Even the "grumpy old-timey bikers" like their tunes. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> _> On its website, TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device: "ie: the period of time TomTom supports your device with updates, services, content or accessories. A device will have reached the end of its life when none of these are available any more."_

This is very weasily legalise and quite contrary to what the customer is likely to interpret "lifetime" as meaning. They guaranteed the device would be kept updated for its useful life, but as soon as they stop updates the device's useful life is over so they can arbitrarily define what "lifetime" of the product is long after its sale.

If the term has not been adequately and obviously defined to the customer in this way they might be liable for refunds on the bases of the product not matching reasonable expectations. Even if it has been defined that way in EULAs and similar for all time, there may still be valid claims against them for deceptive advertising and bait & switch.

Of course they'll probably get away with it though, the same way for many years ISPs got away with using the word "unlimited" to mean "unlimited except for any limits we currently apply and might decide to apply at any time in the future", though not without losing some face.

I own a TomTom sports watch which I've recommended to people in the past. I will no longer give unguarded recommendations[1] and when it comes time to replace it[2] I will seriously research competing options and most likely discount TomTom products unless there is an astronomical cost/value difference in their favour.

[1] if any recommendation at all

[2] which will be soon due to an event involving unintended high-velocity contact between myself and the pavement which has resulted in a damaged screen and probably a reduction in moisture resistance

<comment><USER10> I got bit by this same thing recently. I bought new windows for my house, and a selling point was they came with a lifetime warranty against manufacturer and installation defects. I only found out after reading the fine print that "lifetime" in this sense meant 10 years

<comment><USER11> Wow, pretty sure that would be totally against our consumer law in my country (Australia)...

<comment><USER12> It's not an uncommon practice in Australia (from a high level). (Never looked into the legalities though....)

One example I know of is that Kathmandu offer a "lifetime warranty" on their goods, but that lifetime is their definition for how long that item is expected to last. As an example they might say "rain jacket x has a product lifetime of 5 years"; so a warranty claim at 4 would be covered but one at 6 years would not (if the staff act 100% in accordance with the policy). (These numbers are entirely arbitrary and not based on their policy.)

It's actually surprisingly inline with consumer laws, but consumer law has a "reasonable expected lifetime based on what you paid for the item" type clause (such that a $15 jacket has a different lifetime to a $800 one).

It's worth remembering for things like expensive TVs that only have a short warranty, because it often pans out that the expected lifetime (because of the price) is higher than the manufacturer offers, but they still have to cover the fault (because of consumer laws).

(It's not accounting for a retrospective change though...)

<comment><USER9> The TomTom situation is worse than that for some (many?) users though. This isn't a device losing support because it is at the end of its physical life expectancy, or because of tech advances in th eX years since the customer bought it (as some of the devices are still available to buy), but because they can't be bothered to keep it up-to-date. They could at least maintain a slightly cut down version that does work on the older designs, for instance.

If someone bought one of those devices in the last year or few I would hope there is a case for it being returned as "not fit for purpose". You could argue that it still works with older maps, but in some cases this could potentially be dangerous. In the case of a sports watch like mine not getting updates wouldn't be a big issue (I might not get new features, but the old ones would still work, I could still use it as a distance tracker and to tell the time) but for a mapping the device up-to-date maps are an essential part.

For devices still on shop shelves, any sold near a statement that updates are a feature are actively being mis-sold. Who picks up the hit for having to sell these devices off cheap: TomTom or the retailer? Some retailers are going to be as irritated as the end users.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I am currently shopping for a new car. Most of the salefolks I came across actually recommended us to stay away from dedicated GPS devices, (built into the car or stand alone). They actually recommend for us to use our smart phone and coupled it with Apple CarPlay or Android Auto.

<comment><USER14> The fewer electronics the car has the better IMO. I much prefer climate control and radio with knobs and levers, no screens thank you (hard to get away from now thanks to silly requirement for reverse camera).

Fortunately the cars I buy are old enough that they pre-date the introduction of screen-based controls.

Navigation much better on phone. Always up to date, no extra costs.

<comment><USER15> I wouldn't say the reverse camera is a silly requirement. At least in my car the lens has a pretty wide angle/fish-eye effect which allows me to see around cars on either side of me before I'm able to see them with the naked eye + my rear-view mirror.

<comment><USER16> Also add that it is way harder to see out of the rear windshield in newer cars. IMO a back up camera is essential and the top-down view some newer cars is pretty nice.

<comment><USER17> The high beltline fad is ridiculous for what it does to visibility but a rear view mirror isn't absolutely necessary. Trucks manage fine with a fully obstructed view.

<comment><USER16> Other than backing up into the trailer or a loading dock, I wouldn't think trucks have to back up often and even in those two cases, there hopefully isn't a lot of pedestrian traffic around.

Now a neighborhood driveway or Walmart parking lot, even the rear view mirror in a older car isn't good enough for me.

<comment><USER17> Plenty of utility vans and pickups with service bodies have no rear visibility. They back up all the time.

<comment><USER18> Back up camera is super handy to hitch up a trailer on a pickup/truck.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Me before reading article: "these are probably 15-year-old devices with 2 users still clinging on"

 _> Many of the affected sat-navs are still available online at a number of retailers._

Well OK then. No more buying TomTom.

</comment><comment><USER20> This is where purchasers of Garmin sat navs are laughing because their map format was reverse-engineered years ago and OpenStreetMap on garmin satnavs is quite a well trodden path: [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin](https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin)

<comment><USER21> It makes me wish I had more time, to start a project to reverse engineer the TomTom format. And maybe even generalize it for all sorts of devices, for example car makers also have their proprietary formats (probably they just use their supplier's format, whichever 3rd party that is).

<comment><USER22> The best part of the TomTom map is what they call "IQ Routes" where they have timing info for each road, for each 15 minutes of the day.

Without that there's little point in using it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Bad experiences like these will most likely drive (no pun intended) more of their customers away from dedicated GPS-devices and onto using smartphones instead.

<comment><USER24> Why do people (outside of special applications perhaps... planes? military?) still use these devices?

Had one in a rental car recently, after battling with it for a bit reverted to trusty iOS Google Maps.

<comment><USER25> \- Operation outside of reliable cell connection.

\- A call or text at an inopportune time doesn't inhibit navigation.

\- The dedicated UI is simpler and doesn't change; my GPS is about 8 years old and has stayed the same the whole time. Every Maps app I've had has changed a dozen damn times since then; I value the stable interface more than the bullshit bells and whistles. It needs to show me directions and be otherwise unobtrusive; a phone doesn't do that.

\- Sometimes I turn my phone off to eliminate distractions

\- Sometimes I'll hand my phone to my kid to play a game

A phone does a thousand things, but none of them as well as a dedicated device can do 1 or 2 items from the list.

<comment><USER26> > \- Operation outside of reliable cell connection.

This. I just spent the entire weekend outside of cell range. And I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm going from day to day.

<comment> Const-me > I can't always download maps in advance because I rarely know where I'm > going from day to day.

Can't you download offline maps for the whole country?

On my phone I have two sets of offline maps for my + neighbor countries. Microsoft is free, Garmin was one time purchase. Both work OK without Internet.

<comment><USER27> Yeah, I'm not sure why it's such a common complaint that phone service is required for navigation. There are plenty of apps available which let you download whole countries/regions for very cheap, and can do all of their routing offline.

<comment><USER28> Because people will typically use Google maps, and Google only provides one month of offline map data before it demands to be put online again to "refresh" that data.

Honestly, the way Google changes the goal posts and rearranges the furniture within its own apps, I stay well clear of that mess when I need consistency and reliability. My phone remains a phone when I'm driving and need an uninterrupted, non-internet, non-phone navigation device.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> It is easy to criticize, but I see their point. Over time we are adding more and more information and detail to mapping data. How does that work out if your older device does not have the resources to store/manipulate that much data?

They have no good options. They can send the update, and break the device. Or leave the old data be and let the device slowly downgrade. Or pay a fortune to replace who knows how many devices. Or try to maintain two versions of their data indefinitely.

<comment><USER30> They can ship a downscaled version of the data for older devices. Standard algorithms like Douglas-Peucker are simple to implement and the quality is bound to be good enough (certainly better than the alternative, which here is nothing at all).

Yes, that's some work. But a build pipeline to produce varying qualities of assets is not something TomTom should be a stranger to.

<comment><USER29> How do you choose which points of interest to throw away when downscaling? That data set is continuing to become richer and more complete over time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> _> TomTom explains that "lifetime" means the "useful life" of a device_

Not the lifetime they think it is, but the same "lifetime" that every manufacturer of products uses. It's not like you're going to get a much longer life from a phone as they also turn off updates at some point.

What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak and b) Google before purchase to find out how long the "new" product has been out.

<comment><USER32> _> What is a little surprising is people still haven't learnt to a) distrust all MarketingSpeak…_

I hear you, it's frustrating that companies keep getting away with this. On the other hand: people don't live forever. There are many thousands of new people each day. Each of whom have to relearn all the unwritten rules of society, while tribal knowledge withers with every changing of the guard. This is an inherent inefficiency in a market free of regulations, where consumers learn whom and what to (dis)trust.

I think, at some point, it's more zen to accept certain behavioural quirks of the market as axioms and focus on how to work with them, instead of against them.

Sorry for turning this into yet another anti libertarian rant :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I got a rental in new zealand, and the included tomtom sent me to the hospital. Seriously, I was following directions to an RV park, but wound up in front of a hospital. The RV park was a kilometer away.

It was also woefully (and I mean extra-frustratingly) out of date in Dunedin. And yet it was online with a fast 3g connection 8 hours a day.

Point being - looks like maybe they skipped map updates a while ago. :-P

<comment><USER33> oh, another funny one - was heading to the botanical gardens in hamilton (a pretty big and highly populated city!) and it navigated me to the gated employees-only service entrance, not to the public entrance about 2km away on another side of the park.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've had the Tom Tom app for many years now (iOS) and have always had free updates. I'm guessing it's harder to support dedicated devices that will eventually be hard to maintain than it is to just update an app on Android iOS so this news is no surprise to me.

Is there much point in buying. A dedicated sat nav anymore? It's literaly cheaper in the long run to use an app

<comment><USER35> The Tom Tom app no longer has updates. They've moved to a new free app that limits it's usage to a set number of miles a month, with a subscription fee if you want unlimited miles.

<comment><USER36> Didn't see this comment before posting much the same thing further up.

I haven't used the TomTom app in years although I've had it since the Treo 650 and then iPhone. Fired it up again. Subscription fee is now $20/yr but they gave all owners of the old app 3 years free. That means I've got 11 years of updates for my original $80 purchase. Not too shabby.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I really like having a dedicated GPS box and keep my phone free. What would be great is dash mounted GPS that uses my main phone as a hot spot for traffic updates. Actually I can use an old phone for that now that I think of it.

</comment><comment><USER38> Maps are big and expensive, and so is the bandwidth require to distribute them. So it's not a huge surprise that TomTom's weaseling out of updating maps on old devices.

When I worked at TomTom around 2007-2009, they had just gone deep into debt buying Tele Atlas to acquire those maps for a hell of a lot more money than they originally expected to pay:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13747015)

>The stunt that Garmin pulled of was, in my opinion, an ingenious head-fake that cost TomTom an enormous amount of money, almost a billion euros, and at the same time saved Garmin a whole lot of money by enabling them to renegotiate a better deal with Navteq, who was faced with losing their major customer if they didn't lower their prices.

TomTom was paying Akamai a lot of money in bandwidth charges so customers could download subscriptions of bigger maps more often. So I developed and tested a prototype using BitTorrent DNA to distribute them, but Akamai ended up lowering their prices because they didn't want to lose all those fees to BitTorrent.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7601083)

>It turned out that BitTorrent would save TomTom about a million euros the first year, and more each year, since TomTom was distributing larger and larger maps, more frequently by subscription, and of course they hoped to get more customers over time. (See: [http://www.sadtrombone.com](http://www.sadtrombone.com) ...)

>But then all of a sudden, out of the blue, Akamai unilaterally lowered the prices they were charging TomTom, saving us a lot of money immediately, presumably to prevent us from switching to BitTorrent (after I had made a bit of a scene at Akamai's GDC booth, in front Travis Kalanick and their sales people, about just having talked Bran Cohen and acquired a quote and beta testing agreement from BitTorrent, and insisted that Akamai tell me what their prices were and when we could start testing -- that may have motivated them to unilaterally lower their prices).

>So in the end, TomTom middle management decided to can the BitTorrent project, in spite of the fact that it was the TomTom founder Pieter Geelen's idea in the first place, and he'd been micromanaging the entire project and user interface all along, to make sure it would not just save us money, but also not have a negative impact on usability or customer perception.

</comment><comment><USER39> I love my TomTom. With a locked phone (Thanks, AT&T), I can't afford to abuse data when I travel. My TomTom works in both US and Europe with free map updates, and has gotten me through mountains, valleys, cities and towns. I also use CityMaps2Go and download various cities, but I will very much miss my TomTom when it stops selling to consumers and updating maps.

(Or I will, at least until I get reasonable data costs internationally.)

</comment><comment><USER40> 100+ comments and nobody missed what's really going on: The old units don't have the resources for the new maps.

I've got a Garmin and can see where they are coming from: A few updates ago my unit demanded that a SD card be installed before it would load an update because the internal memory wasn't enough.

</comment><comment> m-p-3 Thank god for OSM volunteers. My Garmin GPS which is totally out of support can still use OSM data that has been converted to a compatible format from here. [https://www.openmapchest.org](https://www.openmapchest.org)

</comment><comment><USER41> Lifetime subscription. Well I guess if you use a goldfish as your standard lol.

I do feel a bit for TomTom. Bought a €120 nav set 3 years ago and the thing still works like a charm. Haven't spent a dime because of free updates and the road network here is already matured so nothing changes much.

</comment><comment><USER42> This sucks because TomToms voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything out there and their display is placed much better (on the windshield) than the in-car navigation systems. I like dedicated devices that do one thing and do it well.

<comment><USER43> "...voice navigation is hands down the winner of everything..." not sure if serious?!

Bought my grandmother the most expensive TomTom model (GO 6200 for approx $400) last year, great big display, hands down the worst voice assistant I have ever used. "Landsberger Street, Munich" was turned into "Luxembourg" or similiar. Google Maps voice recognition seems far superior to me.

<comment><USER42> I don't see what voice recognition has to do with it (maybe you meant voice synthesis), but my tomtom doesn't read out the street names at all, just works with distances and turns, so maybe that particular model (or maybe newer versions of the tomtom firmware) have that 'feature'?

I'll consider this a warning to wait as long as I can with upgrading my oldie, it's still working well though. 7 years and counting...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> TIL TomTom is still in business.

<comment><USER45> It's still useful in rental cars. Travellers may not have a working phone number to use mobile phone maps.

<comment><USER46> offline maps? google and here both offer that

<comment><USER47> Did Google start offering off-line maps _with navigation and pathfinding support_?

<comment><USER48> This was first rolled out in 2015:

[https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and- search-...](https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/navigate-and-search-real- world- online.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/MKuf+\(Official+Google+Blog\))</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


GNU hackers discover HACIENDA government surveillance - <AUTHOR> https://fsf.org/blogs/community/gnu-hackers-discover-hacienda-government-surveillance-and-give-us-a-way-to-fight-back <comment><USER2> I believe a civilian has portscanned the whole Internet before via the same thing: [http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/paper.html](http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/paper.html)

I don't get all the fuss about portscanning is either - anything connected to the Internet will be subjected to packets sent to it because the Internet is public; if you don't want others, government or otherwise, to know that there's a machine present at an IP, then it should be your responsibility to configure it so it doesn't reply.

<comment><USER3> There was a lot of noise when the Heise story was released with people concentrating on the use of nmap and saying that using nmap is not shocking.

For me the disturbing thing was the pipeline - nmap, fingerprint, identify weak systems and then compromise those systems. Those compromised systems are then used for further surveillance or attacks.

Before the Heise story, I naively believed that this sort of automated attack was only done by organised crime.

<comment><USER4> > Before the Heise story, I naively believed that this sort of automated > attack was only done by organised crime

You were correct.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _Disturbingly, the HACIENDA system actually hijacks civilian computers to do some of its dirty work, allowing it to leach computing resources and cover its tracks._

Yeah, that is disturbing, and it should be made illegal.

<comment><USER6> I think it's already illegal.

<comment><USER7> Agreed, it's just that there's no tribunal to bring the case to.

<comment><USER8> So does it set a precedent that the humble citizen is able to do it without legal ramifications?

<comment><USER9> In a sense, yes. There will be ramifications, of course, but they are entirely extralegal.

It's best not to think of the Five Eyes as being nations of laws.

<comment><USER10> Seeing this intelligent if pessimistic post downvoted without comment makes me sad for Hacker's News.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> We are bored in the city, there is no longer any Temple of the Sun. Between the legs of the women walking by, the dadaists imagined a monkey wrench and the surrealists a crystal cup. That's lost. We know how to read every promise in faces — the latest stage of morphology. The poetry of the billboards lasted twenty years. We are bored in the city, we really have to strain to still discover mysteries on the sidewalk billboards, the latest state of humor and poetry:

        Showerbath of the Patriarchs
        Meat Cutting Machines
        Notre Dame Zoo
        Sports Pharmacy
        Martyrs Provisions
        Translucent Concrete
        Golden Touch Sawmill
        Center for Functional Recuperation
        Saint Anne Ambulance
        Café Fifth Avenue
        Prolonged Volunteers Street
        Family Boarding House in the Garden
        Hotel of Strangers
        Wild Street

And the swimming pool on the Street of Little Girls. And the police station on Rendezvous Street. The medical-surgical clinic and the free placement center on the Quai des Orfèvres. The artificial flowers on Sun Street. The Castle Cellars Hotel, the Ocean Bar and the Coming and Going Café. The Hotel of the Epoch.

And the strange statue of Dr. Philippe Pinel, benefactor of the insane, fading in the last evenings of summer. Exploring Paris.

And you, forgotten, your memories ravaged by all the consternations of two hemispheres, stranded in the Red Cellars of Pali-Kao, without music and without geography, no longer setting out for the hacienda where the roots think of the child and where the wine is finished off with fables from an old almanac. That's all over. You'll never see the hacienda. It doesn't exist.

The hacienda must be built.

[http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/Chtcheglov.htm](http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/Chtcheglov.htm)

<comment><USER12> [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Chtcheglov](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Chtcheglov)

<comment><USER13> And the original French version is here:

[http://debordiana.chez.com/francais/is1.htm#formulaire](http://debordiana.chez.com/francais/is1.htm#formulaire)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Good luck port scanning ipv6 at random.

I really hope all this some day is just some horrible chapter in a book that remembers how governments used to spy on their own citizens and how crazy that seems to everyone "now".

<comment><USER15> Governments are either kept honest by a vigilant population of actual citizens (instead of people only interested in their personal affairs _) or are mostly a tool for the rich and powerful to maintain a favorable order.

(The only third alternative to a government for the multitudes and a government for the rich is the direct rule of the rich and powerful without or with minimal government, as in the calls for "deregulation" which seldom favor the average Joe).

(_) What the ancients of the Athenian democracy used to call "idiots". The word comes from "idiotis", the term for someone not caring to participate in public affairs and policy decisions -- and literaly means "private".

<comment><USER16> > as in the calls for "deregulation" which seldom favor the average Joe

Can you give an example of deregulation that doesn't favor the average Joe? I can't think of one.

<comment><USER17> Deregulation in the sense of removing price controls and barriers to entry is typically good for everyone, examples include airlines and craft beer brewing.

Deregulation in the sense of stripping very specific regulations designed to prevent exploitation are typically good for the owners of capital and bad for everyone else. Examples include the Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act (Led to Savings & Loan calamity), the Gramm Leach Bliley Act (Led to GFC), California's attempts to deregulate the energy market (Led to Enron and the energy crisis). It's easy to imagine many more scenarios where industries could be deregulated that would cause massive harm to most of society -- virtually all environmental controls fall into this category.

Some of those scenarios could have been prevented if _more_ facets had been deregulated, but they weren't so we lost trillions of dollars in real value and drove debt through the roof.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Institutions_Deregul...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Institutions_Deregulation_and_Monetary_Control_Act)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach- Bliley_Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis)

<comment><USER16> I see what you and shiven mean. I agree those _partial_ deregulations are bad. I say partial because that's not what I usually mean by "deregulation". "Stripping very specific regulations" is just that, just another law being passed, that flips some switch on or off.

When I asked for examples I thought we were talking about total deregulation (I previously thought _deregulation_ was a binary thing - either something is regulated or it isn't at all) but I see it is used in other senses (although it is a bit perplexing to me).

> Some of those scenarios could have been prevented if more facets had been > deregulated

Exactly this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Ironically Jacob Appelbaum, allegedly an investigative journalist who reported this issue, is responsible for this project on GitHub that does exactly the same thing:

[https://github.com/ioerror/blockfinder](https://github.com/ioerror/blockfinder)

<comment><USER19> I disagree.

I don't see where blockfinder is actually reaching out and pinging servers to see what's up where. blockfinder seems to be downloading well known data sources as to where IPs are. The project the government is being accused of doing is essentially running a distributed nmap along with geo information.

<comment><USER18> But Blockfinder is returning a full list of IPs of which you _could_ perform nmap scans upon.

That's one step away from HACIENDA.

<comment><USER20> This gets even worse. I've heard Jacob has a computer with Internet access. Now that's like two steps away only from HACIENDA.

Terrifying.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I can't really take much more of this... What is their goal?

<comment><USER22> Gathering foreign intelligence. It's not like their overarching mission is a huge secret.

[http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml](http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml)

<comment><USER21> At the expense of the sanity and security of those who the foreign intelligence is meant to protect?

This is an obvious abuse with extreme existential consequences.

Sort of reminds of this book I read as a kid: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(novel)#Plot_summary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_\(novel\)#Plot_summary)

<comment><USER22> I think the assaults on your sanity are likely more the result of sensationalized/incomplete reporting. The biggest issue I have with most of the Snowden reporting is that if the article doesn't outright jump to assumptions that aren't supported by the source material, they usually have unanswered questions and written in such a way that would cause the reader to jump to the worst possible conclusion. I'm not sure on the entirety of what's actually going on, but the only hard facts I can gleam from the original article[1] are: 1) GCHQ has an nmap/zmap-like tool (not surprising) 2) the various intelligence agencies hack their targets (not surprising) 3) they apparently gain control of relays to obscure their tracks (potentially disconcerting, but makes sense...) 4) the only criteria that was discussed was the fact that the relays can't be located in Five-Eyes countries (Slide 18).

Bruce Schneier made a couple of observations on the slide decks[2]:

 _24 people were able to identify "a list of 3000+ potential ORBs" in 5-8 hours. The presentation does not go on to say whether all of those computers were actually infected._

...

 _The slides never say how many of the "potential ORBs" CSEC discovers or the computers that register positive in GCHQ's "Orb identification" are actually infected_

Despite this, the article authors have no problem tossing in assertions not made in their source material, such as: _" these spy agencies try to attack every possible system they can, presumably as it might provide access to further systems. Systems may be attacked simply because they might eventually create a path towards a valuable espionage target, even without actionable information indicating this will ever be the case."_ or _" Thus, system and network administrators now face the threat of industrial espionage, sabotage and human rights violations created by nation-state ad- versaries indiscriminately attacking network infrastructure and breaking into services."_ Heck, as far as I can tell they apparently threw in Slide 9-16 (what appears to generic description of network hacking) solely so that they could include the phrase _" The NSA presentation makes it clear that the agency embraces the mindset of criminals."_ (Neglecting to mention that the supposed "tools to support this criminal process" are a Wireshark dump of an ICMP ping response [Slide 14], what looks to be an FTP session labelled "Iraqi Ministry of Finance" showing an attempt at brute forcing the administrator account [Slide 15], and a screenshot of a freshly opened cmd.exe [Slide 16])

If the average person reads through this without looking at the text critically, they're going to walk away thinking "holy crap, they're hacking everyone!", which would indeed be terrifying. The problem is that the evidence needed to reach that conclusion isn't actually there. Nothing is shown regarding any actual process for selecting hosts to use as relays, or any actual number of hosts that they hack into. One commenter on the Schneier article[3] points out that they can't just indiscriminately gain control of hosts - the host isn't necessarily going to be reliable and the chances of them getting caught increase quickly as the number of hacked hosts increases. Nor do they mention if there is any effort to assess the potential political damage that may arise from the target selection. I'd be pretty pissed if I found out that my laptop was being covertly used to hack on their behalf, but on the other end of the scale I don't care if some random open SMTP server in Nigeria is being used by the NSA to spy on North Korea.

[1] [http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/NSA-GCHQ-The-HACIENDA- Program...](http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/NSA-GCHQ-The-HACIENDA-Program-for- Internet-Colonization-2292681.html)

[2] [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/nsagchqcesc_i...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/nsagchqcesc_inf.html)

[3] [https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/nsagchqcesc_i...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/nsagchqcesc_inf.html#c6676883)

<comment><USER3> _Nothing is shown regarding any actual process for selecting hosts to use as relays, or any actual number of hosts that they hack into_

To quote parts of figure 18 in the Heise story:

CSECS Operational Relay Box (ORB) ... subsequently used for exploits... 2/3 times a year, 1 day focused effort to acquire as many new ORBs as possible in as many non 5-Eyes countries as possible.

I interpret this as "hack many hosts as possible in a given short timeframe".

<comment><USER22> But it's still not a number - how many are actually being hacked in this manner? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions? Five? There's not enough context given to tell. That picture on slide 18 with all of the redactions just below the quote you cite shows 63 egg-shaped (or maybe "orb" shaped?) icons with various colored halos and warning symbols next to them. If I were to make an educated guess based on that slide, I'd guess that CSEC controls a total of 63 relays. If I only read the article, I'd assume several orders of magnitude more.

The point that I was trying to make in my earlier comment is that when we read an article like that we tend to instinctively ask more questions, and if the answers to our questions aren't there we tend to make assumptions. Depending on both our own biases and the biases of the author presenting the information, our assumptions are often way off the mark (in either direction).

Here's some questions I would pose to the authors of that article that aren't answered:

How many hosts are being hacked?

Who owns the hosts being hacked? Have the authors taken steps to inform the owners? If not, what is the reason they chose not to?

What are those hosts normally used for and by whom? What is the scale of the privacy implications associated with NSA/GCHQ/CSEC using this host?

What criteria are considered when they select a host to hack to use as a relay?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Why would they need to use a botnet for a simple portscan?

</comment><comment><USER24> It bugs me that tap to zoom doesn't work on this site.</comment>