Ask HN: Best Video Call Solution for Elderly - <AUTHOR> Hi HN, I'm looking for a device that I can give to my grandmother that she can use to video call me and other family members from her care home. It needs to either be completely remotely manageable by me, or it needs to not have any real settings that can be changed accidentally (and can be pre-provisioned). Ideally it would be able to connect to the internet over 4g, so it wouldn't be at the mercy of whether her nursing home has WiFi. Basically what I want is an office phone with a video screen that can connect to a 4g network. Does any such thing exist? If not, does anyone have any suggestions? <comment><USER3> When people make suggestions for this they underestimate how complicated their suggestion can be from a UX perspective.

Sometimes your user is someone who can't text, longs for the days when a telephone rang and the UX was to simply grip the receiver and put it to their ear.

Even a traditional tablet can be a pain because the user has to spend time finding the wake button when it's sometimes styled identically to the volume buttons. And they can't rely on location for memory as the tablet can be oriented different ways.

"Ohh that's not a real problem" you think.

Well, maybe not to you, but what if your eyesight is fading and you have arthritis in your hands? Then, even a touchscreen is a pain, I've watched folks use them where every tap happens three times to get it to "register"

I think an appropriate video device for OP's gran needs to have physical buttons (and not many of them aside from up/down answer(ring)/hangup, and have only one screen orientation.

Even when someone makes such devices they can't help but throw in the kitchen sink by letting it make phone calls as well. Great, now your UX is modal depending on whether you're making an audio or video call.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're quite right. I tried to give my grandparents an iPad, but a few months ago I spent two or three hours trying to get them to reboot it and logged into FaceTime (over the phone). About half of that was literally trying to get them to reboot the iPad. They just couldn't find and then hold down the power button. They were struggling to see it, and then struggled to hold down the button for long enough without releasing it. It was really really hard for them. I eventually gave up, and they were very frustrated with the iPad and themselves.

<comment><USER4> FWIW, this can also be done with Settings -> General -> Shut Down.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Somewhat related but I just wanted to brag on my dad:

My dad is a pastor that runs Sunday mornings at a relatively large church. Roughly 600 people on a Sunday morning over a few services; not mega-church, but definitely bigger than the vast majority of Methodist churches. Over time he's become the "technology guy". He's not (or at least wasn't) particularly more competent than most, but wasn't afraid to learn and get his hands dirty, so to speak. Now I would call him plenty sav.

One of his passions is bringing the church to people who can't come to the building. A lot of personal visits to shut ins and hospitals, and recently this meant live streaming. We already had a two camera broadcasting set up, so it was pretty simple to plug it in to the internet (some sort of turn key "send audio and video to this box with an ethernet cable and we"ll stream to everywhere elsed" kinda deals) and off we go.

As an even more aside, I just want to shout out that since the epidemic started he basically started producing 3-4 hours of video each week to live stream.

Anywho, this lead to him asking me how eldery-proof we could make in-home streaming for folks who can't always leave the house, or maybe want to watch VODs if they miss a week or something. I mused that the turn key solution he was using made a few TV streaming options (apps on Fire TV, Roku, Android, etc.) and you could probably set one of those up to start automagically on boot or something.

About two weeks later he calls me up and, to my genuine amazement, has actually come up with a solution. He set up a Roku with a remote that custom app buttons, set up the streaming app (again, this is an app specifically for streaming our church) on one of those buttons, and set the app up in such a way that the first button hops onto the live stream. He even set up pretty good UX studies with a bunch of elderly folks to make sure his instructions were clear!

He ended up getting sponsored for about a hundred of them from a few generous folks around the church and personally set them up in folks homes.

<comment><USER6> It occurs to me that a combination of Amazon products might yield a similar outcome by way of the Alexa skills system, albeit at the price of asking someone to talk to their Alexa or TV remote. Your solution sounds a little more straightforward for people unsure of technology.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I have couple of friends who use Facebook Portal for their non-tech savvy grandparents. Seems like the lack of features (compared to other tablets) make it easier for them to use it. Another thing, it integrates with WhatsApp (a big plus for many!)

[https://portal.facebook.com/](https://portal.facebook.com/)

<comment><USER8> I use the portal and I like it a lot. I can see why older people would love it too. The UI is simple - large buttons to call each contact and once you're in the call, a red button to end the call. There is a hardware button to disable audio and camera, if necessary. Elderly users don't need to worry about charging because it's plugged in. They don't need to worry about focussing the camera to their face because it does it automatically.

Side note - camera quality is good. I've had multiple friends comment about how my video is much better than the other folks in the call.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> My grandparents are in their early 80s or late 70s and aren't very open to learn new technologies.

For the past 7 years they used and iPad (one of the early models 2nd or 3rd generations) and it served them well. I've introduced the the family contacts, put FaceTime and Photo library on the first screen and it seems ok for them. I've also annotated what volume button do and teach them that if they have a problem with it to press the big button (home button).

The only problem with the iPad is that recently there are some connectivity issues (it seems it doesn't always stay connected to Wi-Fi and they don't receive my FaceTime calls). I think this may be due to the old iOS it's using (v10 or v9). So, considering to buy them a newer version.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a problem I've experienced as well. As apple devices get much older, you run into things like password nags much more frequently. This is extremely off putting for someone who isn't familiar with tech. Eventually some apps just stop working at all. Then you try to give them a new device, and it's just similar enough to be extra confusing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> GrandPad. Ninety four year old grandmother uses it and loves it. Easy to use tablet, great customer support that only works with seniors and their app for other family managers is surprisingly good. It's literally made for this purpose.

<comment><USER11> I've had a rough time with GrandPad. Tried to set it up for a family to use during covid, the mother is in her 60s and pretty competent with tech - <USER2> use iPads, Kindles etc just fine. We tried to change the registration of the GrandPad from her billing and they said they needed to ship us a whole new device. Then they said they could just ship a new sim. So anyway she's gotten the new sim in the mail and has had such a frustrating time with it & can't get it to do video calls. She's wanting me to take it back.

The whole idea was that it would be simple enough that her son with Down Syndrome could use it to keep in touch with friends. He's smart, he can use gmail, but he can't use this thing.

Honestly my perspective on them has been that it's a cheap thing, UX is a real mixed bag, customer service not great, & I deeply regret losing the time we've spent trying to work with it vs exploring other solutions. Ugh. I even don't want to go pick it up to try and deal with it from my side.

Glad you have had a better experience, but let's just say it's not universal!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> My grandmother has an Ipad and an IPhone. We sometimes video call her on here phone using whatsapp. But this works around 50% of the time correctly and the other times we just call using a regular land line phone. She uses the Ipad only as a image viewer. We showed her multiple times how to google something but that is just to difficult for her. But she understands how to watch the photo's we put on the device, and she really likes to watch the old photo's of all our vacations together. So my recommendation would be use something that your grandmother is already comfortable with and start thinking from there. Introducing something new can be hard for her even if it is simpeler.

<comment><AUTHOR> She's unfortunately not a smartphone or tablet user at the moment, and I doubt that she has any desire (or ability) to learn how to use one... Basically I want a landline phone that can also do video

<comment><USER13> The feature on my iPad that utterly entranced my mother in law (in her 80s) was Google Street View - she was absolutely fascinated by being able to "visit" places she had been before.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I have helped both my mother and some elderly folks with their computers and have a few observations which may be of some help.

1) UI changes really bother them. A lot of that crew works on muscle memory -- an icon moves and they get lost. They don't easily re-parse a new UI for changes.

2) Click speed decreases, so double-clicks are much harder. A single deliberate click is fine, but the doubles seem to pose problems.

3) The iPad doesn't seem to work for some. When I found there was no easy cheat sheet available (the ones I found seemed either insufficient or were focused on trivia/new-hotness), I made a series of laminated sheets. One described the various screens, one pointed out the parts of an iPad (controls, mostly). The third showed the different "gestures" (the important ones, anyway). This just ... didn't take. She doesn't care for it. Possibly due to #1 -- I am considering getting a laptop and using Classic Shell to fake that it is XP just so she feels comfortable again.

4) Visual acuity varies widely but you're probably on top of that.

5) Plugging things in can be problematic, so some kind of easy docking station or wireless charging might be better if available.

I have been watching this post with interest.

</comment><comment><USER15> I'm using an echo show for this use case. My granddad has dementia and lives at home on his own. I set up some blink cameras in his house to watch for falls and setup an echo show so family could speak with him during lockdown. The big advantage I found about the echo show is the "drop in" feature which allows starting a video call with no interaction from his side.

<comment><AUTHOR> How do you feel about "drop in"? It feels a little invasive. Do you have the option to have the device ring rather than just dropping in, whilst still maintaining the option in an emergency?

<comment><USER15> There's no doubt that the cameras and drop in features are an invasion of his privacy. Unfortunately his dementia is advanced enough that we couldn't ask him if this was ok before we put it in. His son has power of attorney over him (allows him to make legal decisions on his behalf) and as I am the only person who has access to these features and the intent is to help protect/care for him, we felt it was a fair trade off.

You can limit the people who can "drop in" on the device, so I guess you could let most friends and family use the call feature and save the drop in feature for certain trusted family members to use in an emergency.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Take a look at KOMP: [https://www.noisolation.com/uk/komp/](https://www.noisolation.com/uk/komp/)?

Heared some good stories about them in a podcast I recently listened. Not cheap, but the UI/UX should be very good.

</comment><comment><USER17> Video chat and elderly relatives was a pain point in my life for a few years. I spent quite a lot of time finding a solution (spoiler: it's FaceTime and 4G iPads).

Things I tried:

\- Initially, I tried Skype on a Windows laptop (around 2011). This was a nightmare for everyone. There were too many points of failure (wifi would disconnect and require a support phone call, Windows would update and require a phonecall to log back in, Skype would require an update and trigger a support call, etc).

\- Around 2013, I tried an Android tablet with the Skype App over wifi. This was just as bad as a laptop (the app was also pretty unstable.

\- I switched to Google Hangouts. The UI was an issue and was also unstable.

\- In 2014/2015, I gifted an old Macbook Air. I set this up with Facetime and also Skype. My relatives preferred Skype initially (since they had experience with the app), but I showed them how to make and answer FaceTime calls over a Christmas weekend and they picked it up in less than an hour. The MacBook setup was great, but it died in 2016.

\- In 2016, I gifted them an iPad with 4G. We continued communicating with FaceTime (and iMessage). This has been flawless for the past 4 years. I update the iPad each year over Christmas. I've only had one support call to install Snapchat (so my grandparents can keep in contact with a great-grandchild).

If the iPad dies anytime soon, I would consider Facebook Portal as an alternative.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm also looking for something like this - I tried using an iPad but the experience on newer iOS is just too confusing and error prone for elder users. It also doesn't really support locking to single task well.

I've been looking at Skype desk phones but those were discontinued as well. Google Home smart devices are nice for video calls, but you can't disable Assistant functionality. Happy to hear any other recommendations.

<comment><USER19> I was thinking Google home devices might work. Is assistant actually a problem? I wondered if it would be actually useful for some people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I FULLY recommend the Claris Companion: [https://www.clariscompanion.com/](https://www.clariscompanion.com/). It keeps things as simple as possible, and they provide tech support. I've used them for over a year now I think and I've been very satisfied. My grandfather is in his 90s and is able to use it in his care home.

The UI takes over the normal android UI to make things very simple. It also provides an email/messaging system which blocks out communication from anyone but the approved contacts, so there's no need to worry about email scams etc.

I'm not sure if they ship to the UK but they have a 4G version. But if you can get a 4G device, you could still use their app.

The key thing is absolute simplicity of interface and use, and this service is great for that.

Sorry this sounds like an ad, but it's seriously provided so much value to me in being able to keep in touch with and see my grandfather from 1000s of kms away.

</comment><comment><USER21> Tablet with Kid/Kiosk mode to only allow one app? E.g. iPad with Facetime?

<comment><USER18> I tried doing that for my family and iOS has this wierd restriction where it drops all incoming calls automatically when you use Kiosk/SingleApp mode. Even if FaceTime is open in foreground.

<comment><USER22> You could also limit the iPad to running Facetime only in Apple Configurator.

<comment><USER18> That's exactly the case where iPad starts dropping calls.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> An Echo Show device matches most of your requirements: low configuration, remotely manageable, plus it's voice-managed. Sadly there are no 4G versions, but you could solve it with a small plugged 4G router.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm leaning towards this, at least from a hardware standpoint it sounds like an echo show is a good bet (assuming there is WiFi or a hotspot). Can one be set up without a mobile phone number though? I'm reading about them, and that sounds like it might be a sticking point.

<comment><USER23> I think the Amazon account does need a phone number, but it could be any phone number you have access to, or the phone number used by the hotspot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> A Chromebook with a sim, and a USB receiver. Chrome books can be managed, I'm not sure if they have Sim slots. Possibly not, in which case a 4G USB device or 4G wifi might have to do.

<comment><USER25> There are LTE Chromebooks by Dell and Samsung

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I use a combination of a conventional phone with FaceTime on an iPad with my 90 years old mother. I call her on the phone (which works much better with her hearing aid), and then I connect through FaceTime for the video. If there are any technical issues, I can walk her through them. We have been doing this every evening for the past three months without any insurmountable problems. Having the iPad on a dock helps, as it keeps the orientation constant.

</comment><comment><USER27> I use a combination of Nextcloud Talk (for 1-on-1 conversations) and Jitsi Meet (for larger groups) with my 82yo mother, she has NC Talk and Jitsi on her phone and tablet and access to both through the browser on her laptop. We use Telegram to schedule meetings through Jitsi Meet or for those cases where NC Talk doesn't notify the called party that someone is calling. It works fine, we use it for ~30 minutes per day, every day.

</comment><comment><USER22> An basic iPad/iPhone could work well - even when he was too young to unlock and use it much, my son was able to voice dial with 'Hey Siri, call Dad on Facetime' etc, and it was easy to make it to work from the lock screen. He didn't even need to touch it - turning on auto answer in the accessibility settings helped too.

</comment><comment><USER28> Hi. I am actually working on a solution for this. My grandma has a bit of dementia combined with hearing loss and a language barrier. This led me a solution of a remotely managed box with video camera hooked up to a TV. I'd love to chat with you and get to know your use case more. Feel free to e-mail me.

</comment><comment><USER29> Sadly these ipad/iphone/facetime combos only work if everyone in your family is on Apply. In the ROTW, that's not so common...

My mum, who's got dementia, can just about work her portal to make and receive calls.

I've heard giving them an android tablet with Skype app set to auto-answer may be the most foolproof x-platform way.

</comment><comment><USER30> iPad and FaceTime. Keep it simple. Bonus - others in the facility will have the same, including staff.

</comment><comment><USER31> I'm thinking about on-premise solution for my family, but that would involve a point-to-point calls only and LAN stretched thru all my family networks connected with VPN devices. But that is a bit overkill for Your scenario I guess...

</comment><comment><USER32> If you prep their phone with Jitsi Meet then it's very simple to use. My elderly mother even managed to follow the Jitsi link I sent her in a text message, to the Play store, install the app and connect.

<comment><AUTHOR> This requires them to have a phone and know how to use it... She does not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Seriously, iPad. If they can't handle the old navigation, setup an MDM and put it in single app mode with managed contacts.

I have a client who uses this as a quick and dirty reception system in 3-4 offices.

</comment><comment><USER34> This is probably relevant to your search for good UX

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589798](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23589798)

</comment><comment><USER35> I think Amazon Echo Show line has video call auto-answer with a time window to refuse, so once configured the remote side don't have to be able to understand how to stop ringtone and start talking.

</comment><comment><USER36> the mother of my gf has problems keeping devices loaded. mostly because she has alzheimer, but dont forget about that aspect.

also, how are you calling, is it always on, is the speaker loud enough and microphone good and lastly is her privacy not compromised?

a solution to easily start a video chat without user registration is whereby.com , but thats mostly good if you already have a remote device, but no control over it.

elderly people are not stupid, they have different experiences and interests. if they want to learn how to use a device, they are likely able to do so.

</comment><comment><USER37> Perhaps some sort of telepresence system is what would work best, but I don't know if there are any such systems available for non-enterprise uses?

</comment><comment><USER38> My grandpa loves his iPad. Best computer for old people.

</comment><comment><USER39> I'm not understanding why a smartphone, with parental controls enabled to prevent her accidentally changing settings, would not work?

</comment><comment><USER40> A Kindle Fire HD with Telegram would be really good and easy to use.

<comment><USER41> I have experimental evidence that a Kindle Fire wouldn't, for an elderly father losing his faculties, after my sister and nephew insisted he should have one and use skype. Just getting the on/off switch is bad enough, along with other problems mentioned here. The whole thing was bad enough for me as a hacker used to android, specifically interacting with skype.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How feasible is a remote job in jr position for a self-learnt developer? - <AUTHOR> I have been learning Web development with the goal of breaking into the tech scene with a remote job. But I have never considered the practicality of it. Part of the reason for this is the fact that my country is a decade behind in terms of technology, and where I am located doesn't have any job remotely related to Web Dev in a 100 miles radius. The tech jobs in the bigger cities are mostly restricted to people with degrees and deals with mainly older techs. So, remote has always been the only option in my mind. However, now that I feel confident of my knowledge, even the junior remote jobs ask for a minimum 3 years experience. And I guess, reality has started hitting me. I am working in two shit paying menial jobs and part of the reason I gravitated towards learning Web Dev is that I wanted to earn more than I have been earning so that I can save more for college. But, since remote is my only option and in case it isn't feasible, I will have to refactor my plans and start searching for jobs outside the tech industry. That's why I wanted to know whether a remote job is feasible, and if yes, what would you guys advice to secure a remote job. I am 20, plan is to save enough by the time I am 23, so I can attend a college where I want to pursue an academic career in CS. <comment><USER2> From what I can tell all three of those are hard to get. Explicit junior positions are fairly rare, remote positions are rarer and filled with the globe's worth of competition as opposed, and self-taught developers struggle with recognition.

For the self-taught a good demonstration project is a good cure for this but that is not an easy task.

Good luck with the search.

</comment><comment><USER3> The path forward is to build-up a portfolio of successful freelance projects. That will raise your visibility/marketability. Start identifying Directors/Managers in web development who you can help-- then reach out to them.</comment>


Ask HN: How to pick a good startup to work for when you're not business-savvy? - <AUTHOR> I worked for three small businesses and they all either flopped or ran stagnant and started going in the red. I joined all these companies where there were 5-10 employees.
I read blog articles about people that joined a company when they were this small, only to be acquired by a huge company and then they made great yields from that acquisition. I know it's survivorship bias but I can't help but think that those early employees that are not co-founders mostly got lucky. Is that actually true, though? Is picking a small company that will have a bigger future mostly a numbers game, or can I apply strategy to it without needing to be business minded?
As the title suggests, I'm not business savvy. I'm just a programmer looking to make a living. I interview with companies big and small, I never cut the mustard with interviews with large companies so realistically I have only the smallest companies to choose from.
I browse Craigslist, AngelList, and BuiltInChicago to apply to places to go work for. I'm pretty much lone-wolfing it out there, without any leads from prior employers. And I don't know what constitutes a company that will be likely to have a good exit.
Working for small companies only to see each one drain their employees (false promises, no benefits, slump in sales) as the company as whole is losing money got old fast. How do you find "the one"? I cannot believe it's just a numbers game, just brute-forcing your career through before you find a company that is good and doing interesting enough things to get millions of dollars of funding and then bought by a huge company.
As I said, I haven't cut the mustard for big company jobs, but this is what I'm interested to know. If you're working a technical job, how do you know how to pick a good small company that has the best future? <comment><USER2> Don't browse for places to go work for. Browse for new startups whose products you would want to _use_. When you find one you love, apply for a job at it. You'll have a leg up on the competition because you know and love their product.

Companies fail because nobody wants to use their product. The process of going from a product nobody wants to one lots of people want is difficult and fraught with uncertainty; most startups fail to make this leap, which is miserable for most of the employees involved. Conversely, if you love a product, chances are there are many people just like you who also love it or will love it once they hear about it. Passionate users = growing userbase = more capital or revenue = your stock options will actually be worth something.

(Disclaimer: I worked for two startups that totally flopped; in both cases, I had no idea what they actually did until I started. Then eventually I said "fuck this getting rich shit", went to work for Google - which wasn't really a startup at the time, but I loved their products - and ended up making a lot more than any realistic startup would've gotten me. YMMV, but this seems to be a pretty decent heuristic.)

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good suggestion to look at the product first and see if I'll like it. I will look westward for those companies because I find more interesting software and other products there. Most of the startup ideas in my city, Chicago, hate to say it, sound mundane. Chicago is big, has many software _jobs_ , but not much in the way of software startups or unicorns. It's not a tech center of USA and entrepreneurs built a different mindset I think. Some have even gone as far as saying, a company like Snapchat will never have grown as big as it did if it started in my city.

I'll probably not work for Google, not because I don't want to, but generally speaking any company that has been doing well for 10+ years hasn't given me any offers or rejects my resume.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Some general thoughts:

1\. Look at the product. Can you describe what it is, what value it creates for customers? Is it exciting? It probably shouldn't be. In 9 out of 10 cases boring products in boring industries will lead to steady work and chance to add real value to the company, get raises, etc. Small company unicorns can raise money, but they don't last. Successful companies ship products and create happy customers. 2\. You want a company that is high trust with their team - including in interviews. How many customers do they have? What is their runway? How much money do they make? What are the biggest complaints from customers? Do they have any raving fans, what do they say? Who are the dominant personalities in the business, who leads? If the company isn't willing to go into detail even over the phone on this stuff then tred carefully. 3\. Read! Don't give up an being business-savvy. There are a lot of good online lectures, tons of great books, podcasts, etc. You don't need to be an expert to start to develop a nose for what is going on. Listen or read something once a day and you'll gather the tools, vocabulary, and emotional perceptions to ask better questions and even help companies execute their strategies. Believe me, having a developer who cares about product, customer, and execution even half as much as they care about code can be the difference between life and death for a small company.

Some resources: Entreleadership (good, easy book on leadership and business): [https://www.amazon.com/EntreLeadership-Practical-Business- Wi...](https://www.amazon.com/EntreLeadership-Practical-Business-Wisdom- Trenches/dp/1451617852/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499463114&sr=8-1&keywords=dave+ramsey+entre+leadership)

Tropical MBA Podcast (will touch on sales, product, marketing, teams, and more): [http://www.tropicalmba.com/podcasts/](http://www.tropicalmba.com/podcasts/)

Gimlet Startup Podcast (start with Episode 1 to go behind the scenes of what the business leaders are feeling): [https://gimletmedia.com/startup/](https://gimletmedia.com/startup/)

Harvard Business School Youtube Channel: [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk8n46m74K5XWfdeBzOXDfA](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk8n46m74K5XWfdeBzOXDfA)</comment>


Show HN: My weekend hacking project, Mugshot Wars - <AUTHOR> http://mugshotwars.com/ Let me know if you have any suggestions! <comment><USER2> Feels a little unsavory since these are mug shots.

</comment><comment><USER3> Fun, but sloooooow.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think you got the short stick, I've been watching the page load times and the average is well below a second. Node is holding its ground pretty well.</comment></comment>


Google to invest $5B in offshore wind power project - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hN6ld75chiXgq_p4i_W2YaZZLKCAD9IQ7D7G0?docId=D9IQ7D7G0

<comment><USER2> I will be surprised if it is a good investment, but... go Google!

$5B would just be a drop in the bucket to take on something like that, I'd imagine.</comment>


The Dirt on Clean Electric Cars - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-16/the-dirt-on-clean-electric-cars <comment><USER2> Posted a day ago here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241291](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18241291)</comment>


Did BBC break the law by using a botnet to send spam? - <AUTHOR> http://www.sophos.com/blogs/gc/g/2009/03/12/bbc-break-law-botnet-send-spam/

<comment><AUTHOR> BBC editor's response: [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/03/click_botnet_e...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/03/click_botnet_experiment.html)</comment>


Ask HN: Meditation advice for a beginner? - <AUTHOR> So I friend told me about Headspace and the usual benefits of meditation. I'm on my 8th day now but I'm having a really hard time with it so far :(
Because every time he says now close your eyes I just start getting itching all over my body. He said it could happen but mine is quite uncontrollable. The more I resist it and think it will pass me by, the more physical agony I get into.
Also I feel a very strong urge to move my body, like shake my legs or something when I try to sit still like this. Sitting for like 10 mins in one position is just too hard. I just want to change positions like tilt my head, adjust myself every few minutes.
Why is something this simple so hard? Anybody else struggled like this? Any advice for me? I don't have any of those symptoms while writing this or coding though.
Since a lot of HNers like to meditate I guess this place is good as any. <comment><USER2> can try r/meditation for suggestions as well

it can be very frustrating at first. one of the first things to "learn" is that its totally normal and ok to be frustrated, to feel like you can't do it, that it is hard. getting to the point where you are ok with it being hard, even if you still cant really pay attention to the object of meditation for any length of time, is progress. when you start getting frustrated, try to remind yourself that its ok to be frustrated, and that all you are trying to do is pay attention to your breath (or whatever), it is as simple (and hard!) as that

if it still isnt working, try a different kind of meditation, like mindful yoga or a walking meditation

i did headspace at first but didnt want to pay for it, and found a really good free mindfulness based stress reduction program. it does not have the same soothing voice and nice graphics of headspace, but the content is better and it is more of an established (and somewhat clinically validated) program: [https://palousemindfulness.com/](https://palousemindfulness.com/)</comment>


Amazon Just Bought 3 Cryptocurrency Web Addresses and Nobody Knows Why - <AUTHOR> http://fortune.com/2017/11/02/amazon-cryptocurrency-domain-name-registration/?xid=gn_editorspicks&google_editors_picks=true <comment><USER2> Amazon is in a unique position to create truly universal Cryptocurrency. Right now it pays credit cards a large percent for every credit card transaction. If they create their own they can save a large percentage and they have control over it. Also, they can offer a discount over credit card purchases. There is no dought people would use it.

They will not use bitcoin but create their own. Amazon is out to make cryptocurrencies something people will use every day. Amazing.</comment>


Coffee shops look to oust 'laptop hobos'  - <AUTHOR> http://money.msn.com/now/post--coffee-shops-look-to-oust-laptop-hobos?sharedfrom=scpshrjwlinkedin <comment><USER3> A lot of people don't understand that WiFi service at coffee shops is provided as a _courtesy_ , and as a result they tend to take it for granted. I know people who, after buying their first drink (the absolute cheapest one on the menu) sit at a table for hours at a time and use the Internet. Fundamentally, I think this behavior is unethical and I'm fully behind coffee shop owners who take measures to discourage it.

The best one I've seen is the method where your receipt includes a WiFi code that is good for two hours after activation. That is plenty of time to get work done, and afterward if you want to continue working then you go buy another drink.

<comment><USER4> Even better: have the code last longer depending on the amount you spend. Buying a high-margin drink? Have 3 hours on the house! Grabbing the cheapest option on the board? Sorry pal, it's 30 mins for you. There's a business model there, I think.

(The only problem for me is that I _hate hate hate_ wifi portals. They all suck.)

<comment><USER3> That would be OK if most high-margin drinks weren't packed with sugar and all kinds of other shit. Why punish people who want a simple Americano by forcing them to get up every 30 minutes and make a new purchase? :)

edit: Of course, the appropriate response to this is that getting up every 30 minutes to walk around and stretch is good for health. Yes, I do debate with myself in my head...

<comment><USER5> Buy four Americano's at a time, get two hours wi-fi and tell the barista to give the three extra drinks to their next three customers. You get your wi-fi, limit your caffeine intake, and help the shop generate goodwill with its customers, which in turn generates goodwill of the shop towards you.

If you're gonna be a hobo, at least try and be classy about it.

<comment><USER6> Ah, but the people who receive free drinks won't get WiFi! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> k-mcgrady This doesn't surprise me. I recently read a thread (could have been on HN but I'm not positive) and I was surprised at the number of people that think it's fine to spend a few dollars on a cup of coffee and then take up a seat and use the free wifi for 8 hours. Most coffee shops (excluding the higher priced places like Starbucks) rely on a high turnover of customers to make a decent profit. There is quite a high markup on coffee but as it's usually so cheap ($1-3) they need to serve a lot of customers. In my experience coffee shops also tend to be quite small and finding a seat is difficult. When I see a place like this I usually go somewhere else. I can understand why they get annoyed at 'laptop hobos'. If you're going to take over a seat in the coffee shop for a day at least buy something every couple of hours.

<comment><USER7> The obvious answer (to me) is for libraries to sell coffee.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> A German Coffee shop is innovating with a new model where the coffee is free but you are charged for the time you spend: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe- germ...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe- germany_n_3345531.html)

This seems like an interesting way to keep the incentives more aligned.

Personally, I wish there was a more socially acceptable way to just rent space at a coffee shop. I don't drink caffeine and I often need to find a place to crash for 2 hours which means either I buy a high calorie pastry/juice that I don't really need to be eating or I feel like an asshole the entire time I'm there. It'd be far easier for me if I could just drop $4 in a jar and have that cover my time.

<comment><USER9> What you need is a Bring Your Own Computer Internet café.

10 years ago, I hanged out a lot in internet cafés, and loved it. There was definitely something cool about it: hanging out with tech-savvy people, using beastly machines on powerful internet connections, exploring the exponentially exploding internet, playing games, ... It was a very social experience, and I befriended a few other regulars there.

I do miss the ambiance of these cafés, and I wish that laptops, better internet connections (the days of 56k are long gone) and ubiquitous free WiFi hadn't killed that kind of business.

There's potential for a revival of internet cafés, though. Good Wifi, preinstalled docks for common laptops, smartly arranged space (to avoid spilling coffee on your precious laptop because you accidentally pulled a cable !) and a different pricing model, you could attract easily the horde of Starbucks and McDonald's "laptop hobos"...

<comment><USER10> Yes! I totally agree! It doesn't even have to be intended as a coffee shop - just like a coworking space where I can show up, plug my laptop in to a monitor, keyboard, and mouse, sit down at a comfy office chair and desk, and work for a few hours. Would gladly pay for that service.

<comment><USER11> Search for co-working spaces in your area. Most have an annual fee (I believe the one closest to my house charges $500 for the year) and are exactly what you described.

<comment><USER10> Really? I live in the Bay Area and the ones that I've seen have pretty poor amenities. Even rather famous ones like Hacker Dojo look like just some cheap tables and chairs thrown together.

<comment><USER11> I can't help you there. I'm in Indianapolis, and there are a number of nice spaces. One of them is a bit grungy, but it's part of its charm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Is this really a serious problem? Anecdotally, 9 out of 10 visits to a coffee shop, I just get coffee and leave. 1 out of 10, I am meeting someone, usually to go over some business. In the 21st century, this typically requires Internet connectivity.

Not offering WiFi or putting time limits on it would make me feel unwelcome. Feeling unwelcome will make me not want to patronize said coffee shop the other 9 out of 10 times.

What's the secret sauce that makes Starbucks so successful? They made it a comfy place to hang out...the "3rd place" between home and work where you can go and feel welcomed. Schultz is always talking about it. Obviously, Starbucks is one data point, but I think there's something to it.

<comment><USER13> 'Serious' is a strong word but I have this problem all the time.

2 of my favorite coffee shops (Filter and Peregrine in DC) are really small and constantly full of people working on laptops. I love the coffee but don't take guests or coworkers there because there are never open tables to sit and chat. I know other people who avoid them entirely because having sitting space is more important to them than the coffee itself.

People who stay for more than, say, an hour or two hurt turnover which is critical for smaller coffee shops that also serve food or snacks, whereas places like SBux make most of their money on people getting a quick morning fix, and can also afford bigger spaces.

I'd prefer if things bifurcated, big national chains that can afford the room offer wifi, smaller local places kill it to keep turnover up. I can see how it's a lose-lose for coffee shops having to choose one group or another. Some places turn it off after, say, 3pm which is a nice compromise.

<comment><USER14> One interesting tech solution I've seen at Argo Tea in NYC is the deployment of Wi-Fi codes on receipts: each code lasts for about half an hour or an hour.

<comment><USER15> That's actually a good solution.

Giving them codes that relate to the total cost of their receipt, so for example 1 coffee = 30 minutes, 2 = 60 so that way when you have a group you each get 30 minutes or something.

Now there is a good startup idea... ;-)

<comment><USER16> I've seen this done in many (unmemorable) places.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> As a telecommuter, I recognize when I go work from a coffee shop that I am using their resources. But that's why I 1) buy stuff while I'm there, and 2) tell all of my friends what a great place it is.

If one of my local shops pulled this on me, they'd not only lose my business, but that of friends when I tell them about the experience. Perhaps this isn't a big concern (I'm not particularly important, after all). But if it happens with enough customers, it could be bad for business in a more broad sense.

<comment><USER18> People that don't like being surrounded by laptops will take your and your friends' place. No worries, cafes without wifi work just fine.

<comment><USER19> Exactly, catering to the the growing logizomechanophobic segment is so hot right now.

<comment><USER20> _logizomechanophobic_

Wow, what a word!

[http://medical- dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechan...](http://medical- dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechanophobia)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is why I 1) only hang around coffee shops with big seating areas, 2) pick the smallest table near a power plug, 3) try to buy something every two hours, be it water, coffee, sandwiches or muffins, to "simulate" turnaround as much as possible, and 4) evangelize for my local on G+, TripAdvisor etc.

I'm probably a bit over-sensitive because I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour... which is probably why most cafes there never offered wifi in the first place.

<comment><USER21> > _I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell > you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour_

Of course, that would also be a perfectly reasonable solution. It has the big advantage of being straightforward, directly addressing the actual problem without inconveniencing non-campers), and letting the customer know what the issue is, and it seems much more likely to work than any of these technical tweaks... (after all, you can easily use a laptop without wifi in many cases, or with a cellular modem, and some campers aren't using a computer at all)

Ideally they'd also apply such a policy thoughtfully, e.g., being more lax when the cafe is uncrowded, and letting you stay around longer if you were buying enough stuff. [After all, you're essentially renting space, and the appropriate price shifts up and down with demand]

Around here they explicitly put up signs saying they may ask you to leave if it's crowded and you've been there for a long time, but I've never, ever, seen that policy actually applied (and some people, mainly students studying, sit there for ages and ages nursing small coffee).

Personally, I'd also like it if they also gave one the option of straightforwardly _renting_ space... sometimes I like to sit in a cafe, but don't really feel like drinking or eating anything...

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> The Grove on Fillmore St in SF has a _goodbye to wifi_ sign near the entrance that I just noticed a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was pretty interesting. I, personally don't mind the wifi'ers at Starbucks or Panera, but my main comment is that the seating plans of these shops are not setup for solo workers. One visit to Starbucks had a slew of wifi workers sitting at 2-person tables. I couldn't help but think that the shop was a 1/2 occupancy just due to the seating plan.

It's definitely an interesting problem. Everyone has laptops, and coffee shops seemingly are not hurting for patrons anymore.

</comment><comment><USER23> Seems like there might be an opportunity for something in the middle ground between neighborhood coffee shop and full-on coworking space.

<comment><USER24> Libraries.

<comment><USER25> Silence + no food allows creates a _very_ different space from a cafe. It has value also, but it's not remotely the same thing.

<comment><USER26> If you're near a University, check out their library. Most of the time they'll have a cafe, guest wifi, and a reasonable amount of white noise for a library.

<comment><USER27> Yep. I live a mile and a half away from a university and I use their library for working on side projects. I've found it to be a great place for helping me focus.

Years of schooling have programmed me to think that the library is where you go to be serious about getting work done, and I'm often more effective there than if I sit at my desk at home.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Not in defence of laptop hobos, but the following is bs:

> "For centuries cafes have been places where people go to meet, trade gossip, > network and otherwise come together informally, and some coffee shops are > trying to encourage that social interaction again by taking action against > the laptop hobos."

Anyone who has done a bit of history (or can find WP) knows that coffee-houses and pubs used to be places where people used to read, work, play games, and hang out for hours on end, whole days or evenings; every evening. Why? Because it saved money on not having to heat ones own living-room in winter...

Using a bit of electricity on top seems relatively minor in comparison...

(though a shift in the relative price of space and drinks/food likely explains the current issues...)

</comment><comment><USER29> Sounds like a great opportunity for someone to create a new coffee shop chain specifically centered around the idea of seating people with laptops for a long time. Actually I'm not sure why this hasn't happened yet.

<comment><USER30> Because you won't make any money. If you have 20 * 2 seater tables you're looking at:

$60-80 coffee per 4 hours - x * $40 for four hours of a barista(s) - <USER2> overhead - electricity - internet usage - business overhead - rent = < $0

Rent is the limiting factor in this model, you want to be in a high traffic area to get those customers but not have to pay ridiculous rent and still have a decently sized store. Not going to happen.

<comment><USER29> Aren't those issues accounted for by simply charging more?

<comment><USER30> Then:

A) people will just go to the multitude of coffee houses that still offer unlimited WiFi

And

B) you're no longer a coffee house, you're an Internet cafe / temporary office space offering coffee. Big difference.

<comment><USER29> Internet cafes tend to be boring white boxes without food or drink, the walls lined with five year old crumbling windows PCs.

It seems like there is a middle ground which has not been explored, which is simply a more expensive coffee shop with more space, where you are allowed/expected to stay for long periods of time. I would pay for that.

You can call that an internet cafe if you want, but it wouldn't really be like any I've been to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> How about coffee shops offering to rent out a table for n hours for x dollars? It might be weird but I would like a option to pay for the facilities without having a coffee every two hours.

</comment><comment><USER32> I honestly have no problem with this. If a shop feels the need to enforce limits then that's fine and is up to them.

If I go to a shop and there are frequently no seats for whatever reason I will stop going there. If I need wifi for something and a shop doesn't offer it then I won't go there either. It's up to the coffee shop to decides how best to balance this for themselves. There are plenty of other coffee shops and I will go to the one that normally has space and has wifi and good coffee if at all possible.

If I'm ever at a coffee shop too long then a worker there can ask me to leave. I will happily pay my bill and leave. However I will likely never return to that coffee shop. This is up to the shop, if they need the seat more than my custom then I honestly have nothing against them and as I said, there are many more shops. (I have never actually been asked to leave a coffee shop however.)

</comment><comment><USER33> Such a weird topic to me. Wifi as a free service became popular as a way to attract people to establishments but the side effect is they get leeches. So at this point they want to reduce them, some taking steps far enough to remove the wifi. But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? Knee jerk reaction to a fad? Maybe it helped them grow in the first place?

I think any service, free or paid needs some sort of regulation from those who will take advantage of it. Having rules which state you need to be paying a customer and limit your stay to 30 minutes or whatever per order is probably the absolute maximum you require since its privately owned property. Having the rule covers your ass when you need it but doesn't require you to enforce it when traffic is slower.

<comment><USER34> > _But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer 's flowing > and happy why did they need it in the first place?_

There's this concept of "moderation" and things going over some limit etc.

That they added something (free wi-fi) to lure customers, does not mean they also want people taking it's use to an extreme (forgetting about the coffee, etc).

Similarly, that I needed a friend and made friends with some guy doesn't mean I would appreciate seeing him 24/7 around my place.

<comment><USER13> I think this might also be something technology could solve.

Hosted wifi networks always seem awful, If there was some way to super easily enforce a bandwidth and per-device time limit to discourage squatters without making the network impossible to use, that would be great.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Start to insult customers; they will leave, and remember.

I used to buy crap at Costco. Since they changed their "100 percent satisfaction guarantee policy", I don't buy much anymore. I don't even think I will renew my card.

The worst thing a company can do is assume their customers are parasites.

</comment><comment><USER36> It always seemed to me like leachers are something that shops should deal with on a customer by customer basises. But I can understand why they want rules from corporate. It can be very hard for a barista to tell someone to leave (or even kick them out) but let another person stay.

I know several Starbucks where people will spend 8+ hours sitting there with their laptop. There was even one guy that would be there from open to close 4-5 times a week! Some of these people would get agressive about which table was "theirs" or which outlet they used. (one guy was from another country and his power adaptor blocked the second outlet.)

Blocking the power outlets help, but a good MacBook will last 4-8 hours anyway. I'd hate to see the free wifi disappear because of a few bad apples.

<comment><USER5> Bring your own power board and be a hero to all your fellow hobos. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Could almost make a case for a "tragedy of the commons" situation here. Common resources of seats and wifi. Most people treat them reasonably using the seats for social interaction and the internet for meeting resources perhaps, but some people having no reason not to leech onto it and over use it then causing the aforementioned problems ruining it forever one with blanket bans and plug power slots.

As per usual moderation is probably the key. Around here lots of places give out wifi for 2 hour per drink. At least they keep you buying if you are going to sit and take up space and wifi. Seemed pretty fair to me. Most casual cases and meetings are well with in 2 hours so more cases are covered and the hobos get the boot or are forced to pay.

</comment><comment><USER38> As someone who works remotely a lot - I hate working at my apartment, so I usually coffee shop-hop when I'm getting things done. I like being around people, and a lot of the times I'll meet up with a friend and cowork, catch up, etc.

So, open question: What are good alternatives? (in SF) -The libraries are full of actual hobos (i.e. they smell like piss) -I researched coworking spaces awhile ago and most required an exorbitant subscription/startup/VC funding. Wix was awesome but then they pivoted into something else. -Noisebridge is great for side projects and hanging out but I don't bring my professional work there.

Ideas?

<comment><USER39> I think you need to challenge the idea that remotely working means that someone out there is supposed to accomodate you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> First, who reads msn.com ? Second, in 2010 starbucks in NY required you to have a starbucks card to access wifi. That didn't work well and they gave wifi free again, so stay cool-- they know what is good for their business.

<comment><USER41> As an ex-Senior PM for MSN.com, well, lots of people. When I worked there a couple of years ago, we were the fifth most visited website in the world, averaging 7,100 articles read per second. But hey, I realize it's not hipster- chic.

<comment><USER42> > we were the fifth most visited website in the world

Isn't that just because it was the default site in IE for Windows XP?

<comment><USER41> That doesn't account for the 7,100 articles -read-, not the home page visits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> You can tell a good coffeeshop by the ambient temperature they maintain. If you're cold, they want you to get it and go.

I'm lucky to have a coffeshop/arcade nearby. The owner wants you to stay, hang out, play games, read some comics. Sometimes I've gotten 3 drinks and food throughout the day. It's not a great study/work location especially when you get distracted watching someone else play a new game on the projection screen but the ample seating means no one walks in and goes "oh...well, guess I'm getting it to go"

</comment><comment><USER44> Mishka's Coffee in Davis, CA has an interesting approach to this. They have a small dedicated section at the front of the cafe that is reserved for [1] "the original, intended way [of using a cafe]". You're only allowed to read a newspaper or hang out and chat in this section.

[1] [http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&ta...](http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&target=therule.jpg)

<comment><USER45> And what is the difference between spending x hours reading the news paper and the same x hours working on a laptop?

<comment><USER46> There is none. If you sit arround for 3 hours with 1 cup of coffee your an <insert rude stuff here> no matter what you are doing.

<comment><USER45> That's way banning laptops per se is silly.

<comment><USER46> True. Do not ban laptops. Kick idiots.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> That's a bummer. I like the ability to go hang out at a coffee shop on off hours, do a little work and a little websurfing while I down a cache of caffeine.

However, I have seen some of the true hobos who are using it as an office, and taking up more than their share of space. It even happens at restaurants that will let you order only a coffee.

We seem to have a lack of public spaces in the USA. At least, public spaces that have wi-fi and power outlets which you don't have to rent by the hour.

</comment><comment><USER48> Am I the only person who just _asks_ these places if it's cool for me to hang out with my computer for a few hours? Plenty of places welcome it.

</comment><comment><USER49> All of the comments on the msn page, seem very self-righteous.

If only there was a way to monitor bandwidth per attached wifi device and slowly limit it for devices attached for a very long time. Why can't they do something like this using a $50 WRT54G and the Tomato firmware? Just turn the QoS setting on and put everyone in a very low bandwidth class. You don't need a perfect solution (like giving 50MB per coffee).

<comment><USER50> Then it becomes an arms war with people installing MAC-spoofing widgets on their systems. People will always find a way to cheat the system.

<comment><USER49> I don't think the system collapses if 5% of the people cheat the system. The problem is that 50% of the space is taking up by leachers. The enemy of the good is this perfection you are looking for.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> I feel like I should probably buy a cup of something every half hour to an hour when I sit there. Nothing irks me more than looking for a seat to drink and surf a bit then tables full of people who don't even have a drink but are just using it as a public free wifi office (lots and lots and lots of salesmen).

Putting codes on receipts that die after a half hour or so is the best possible solution to me.

</comment><comment><USER52> It's interesting to notice the attitudes of the individual shop owners and how they appear to have changed over time. It used to be the case that coffee shops wanted to attract the quiet techie types, clacking away at their laptops and sipping on lattes while checking email, watching videos, working, building the next facebook... whatever. It didn't matter, as long as the ambiance reflected that progressive hopefulness that a quiet 20/30-something on a laptop used to project.

"Used to project," being the key phrase there. It seems that based on the attitudes of coffee shop owners, we're entering a post-internet era. Are people finally starting to again realize (as they once did in the early 90s) that being antisocial in public is simply not cool? I tend to think we've evolved with understanding as a basic part of our subconscious. We see a person engaged in antisocial behavior in a public places, and we tend to think less of that person. It would seem that our innate beliefs are once again rising to prominence.

</comment><comment><USER53> The one thing that still fascinates me is the thought that somehow lack of wifi and electric outlets will drive people away. Sure, it might work for a short while if there are suitable alternatives near by, but once those alternatives follow suit, people that rely on coffee shops for a place to work will simply resort to air cards/phone tethering.

A typical MacBook Pro will last you 6-7 hours with screen at low brightness. Newer Airs do even better. Ditto for iPads, etc. Plus many of tablets/netbooks come with a built-in LTE service.

A more sustainable solution would seem to be better equipped spaces. Someone kept going off on people taking tables that would seat two-four others. While the comments themselves illicit no sympathy from me (especially about spending 10x), there is a good point made that if we developed etiquete of providing and using laptop-specific seating, it would ease some of the congestion. Just a thought...

</comment><comment><USER54> I've never been a coffee drinker, so I'd sometimes park where I can pick up a signal, using my vehicle as a power source, but since I got a "4G" mobile hotspot I no longer use free wifi and I have the option of smoking while in the confines of my automobile as well as a change of scenery as the situation permits.

<comment><USER5> You should check out Geek My Ride. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG- Qprpt80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80)

He claims to have the fastest web server on the planet. It'll do about 160km/hour.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> As for Starbucks, my local one (it's one of few bigger "reserve" store) had this problem before they renovated.

When they renovated the store, they changed it so they have "bar" desk facing the two sides of the store facing the window with plenty (pretty much every seat) and also some in the very middle section of the seat.

What I have been observing is that people who need power for their laptop tend one of those seat -- while some people do use laptop in other seats, they are more transient.

Of course given this is all given there are enough space to do this type of arrangement, but sometimes these approach of actually manipulating behavior rather than being prohibitive is one approach those places can take.

</comment><comment><USER56> Is it just me or are coffee shops turning up the music too? I'm having a hard time finding a coffee shop where I can have a skype or phone call. Loud music and/or noise is one way to discourage long-term telecommuters who need to stay in touch.

</comment><comment><USER57> I'd be more understanding of this sort of thing at Starbucks if the Starbucks locations near me weren't friendly to ACTUAL hobos. I've walked into SB and been hit with a wall of piss reek on more than one occasion.

<comment><USER41> Heaven forbid a business's policy to provide food and drink to the homeless interferes with and limits your "understanding"/acceptance of their not desiring you to spend the day using the Wifi whilst not spending money, probably whilst claiming that you benefit the business somehow by "creating atmosphere"...

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Newer laptops have 6+ hour batteries. Not having a power outlet won't deter anyone in the future.

Also, if you have Clear or tethering you don't need WIFI to get online. I have Clear and it's been fun to find new places to work. (I just wish Clear had better coverage maps.) So why be a "hobo" at one location when you can work at several locations?

As far as limited space, this is not really an issue unless you live in a big city. If you're in NYC, you're elbow to elbow like sardines all day long everywhere you go, is this really news to anyone? If you don't like it, move somewhere less crowded.

</comment><comment><USER59> Fairly simple solution- try selling Gogo-style wifi to customers? That way people who are using the wifi the most will be paying their share. Counterargument: "I'd just go to a place that has free wifi." Exactly.

</comment><comment><USER60> A simple solution to this problem would be to replace the seating in the coffee shop with less comfortable ones.

A while ago I had to work from a coffee shop for one day and while the chair I was sitting on was comfortable for 3 to 4 hours, my back and arms really started to ache after that time. The next day I still felt it.

This would solve the problem: regular laptop hobo's will not use your shop because it will not be comfortable to work there, while customers that are there to socialize are there for a short amount of time anyway.

</comment><comment><USER61> I work in an office where I frequently lose internet (thanks Comcast!) during the middle of time sensitive projects, so I have definitely camped out for several hours in a Starbucks while crashing on some issue or another. However, given that I buy more than 1 coffee per hour, I don't see the damage. Also, last time I had to crash land at the Starbucks I went to the restroom to find my seat snagged by an actual hobo (title reminded me), so I went to the bar that offered free wifi instead.

</comment><comment><USER62> In Berlin there's St. Oberholz: [http://www.sanktoberholz.de/](http://www.sanktoberholz.de/) which has really embraced the people using it as an office. Feels like a very welcoming place when you have to get some work done and you won't bother "normal" people since everyone knows what the place is about. They even have added a better co-work space with more office services like snail mail, scanner, printers, conference rooms etc.

</comment><comment><USER63> Obviously there are two sides to this coin, and that calls for two solutions. Some coffee shops can certainly adopt this and similar policies to cater to customers that would prefer not to be around people tapping away on their keyboards, while other coffee shops can become the new haven for those people.

I think it's a fair solution, and it reminds me of how some restaurants will adopt policies to ban children from the premises for similar reasons.

</comment><comment><USER64> > Some shops say they've had enough. They're either laying down customer rules > for Wi-Fi use or eliminating it at certain hours -- or even altogether -- > while blocking their wall outlets.

Portable hotspot all-day batteries (e.g: Macbook Air's) are two examples of bypassing such restrictions. Forbidding the use of laptops sounds more convincing. But that should be enough to trigger some sort of segregation anyway. Not a slick move.

</comment><comment><USER65> A good non-technical solution to this problem is an intentionally slow/standard Internet connection, such as at my cafe of choice.

For me, it is frustrating to be at this cafe at peak laptop hours and I think it causes people to churn in and out. So, I try to only use my laptop there when there are fewer laptop users at the cafe. I think this is a good psychological effect for the cafe to impart on its customers!

</comment><comment><USER66> Not dissimilar to the old days where chess player hobos took up all the space. Hang around for hours, buy one coffee, drag the image down.

</comment><comment><USER67> IMHO this is one of the many signs that soon there will be a new kind of coffee shop that emphasizes more on the social space rather than on coffee.

What people like us are looking for is not a cup of freshly-brewed black coffee (although that definitely adds to it) but a social space with stable & fast internet. Something that is a crossover of a coffee shop and an open workspace.

</comment><comment><USER68> Why hasn't anybody figured out to put a reasonable time limit on each device Mac address? 1 hour since you first log in should be enough to satisfy 90% of customers and discourage the 10% hogging seats. Its like saying - you are limited to 5 refills and being able to enforce it discretely. Who would object to that other than those taking advantage?

<comment><USER55> I think the reason is because that really didn't work for some reason. Starbucks experimented that idea for a while. (I think it was something like 3 hours for buying a something using registered card, and that then they decided to open it up...)

My personal opinion about MAC address filtering though, if they become the norm, everyone will start using a piece of software that changes MAC address periodically... (As it's already trivial to change your MAC address...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> Coffee shops have traditionally also been places to read or write, why is using a laptop that different? For those who have complained about laptoppers taking up two person seats a) Most cafes I've been to have had few one person seats and b) most laptops with a coffee take up the space of a two person table.

</comment><comment><USER70> In my experience, most coffee shops don't really have that much to offer if they take away the opportunity to sit somewhere pleasant and work.

Coffee shops that actually serve good coffee tend to drive away people who want to sit quietly with their computers - they have too much business.

<comment><USER71> Noise cancelling headphones make this situation more nuanced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> Visit San Francisco's 'Coffee Bar' in the Mission to see a place the eeks out every drop of profit with many kinds of seating and various rules over time for some areas. Always packed and people learn the rules quickly. Lots a good nudging going on.

</comment><comment><USER73> As someone who occasionally does spend a few hours in a cafe writing (I'm doing my PhD and it stops me going mad), what's the fair payoff? Sit at a small table and buy a decent coffee (i.e. a latte rather than a cheap filter coffee) every two hours?

</comment><comment><USER74> anecdata:

i can't remember the last time i sat in a coffee shop just to chat for 20 minutes. i am in, and out, because EVERY single one is filled with laptop 'workers'. even the $15 exotic coffee place that looks like a meth lab is filled with hipsters on their laptops.

i live in santa monica, this is definitely a recent phenomenon - i used to be able to walk into a bean or bux and grab a table for a few minutes, like... 3 years ago

</comment><comment> daniel-cussen From a business point of view, this is so bad that coffee shops should not only not have Wifi altogether, but _have jammers._

</comment><comment><USER75> At least for me, no wifi = no business from me for the coffee shop.

</comment><comment><USER76> WiFi is a decreasingly relevant weapon as more people have more devices with faster 4G connectivity. They'll need to start outright bans.

<comment><USER77> I've noticed that there are two types of laptoppers that frequent coffee shops, the "well-heeled" and the "hobos". The former are social, interesting, always buy drinks/food. They may stay for a long time, but they typically add to the atmosphere rather than detract from it. The only thing that really bugs them is when the Internet is spotty or really slow.

Then there's the other sort, the "hobos." They bring a ton of crap, (I saw one guy haul a fricken printer into a Starbucks) it's even chances on whether they'll order something or not, get angry at the drop of a hat, and you get the distinct feeling like they don't have / can't afford Internet at home.

The thing about the latter is, they tend to have older laptops whose batteries can't hold a charge. Guaranteed they won't have 4G devices. So removing the power outlets is probably the easiest and best solution to the problem. You'll keep the good sort from being able to stay all day, but if the problem is really that bad, the well-heeled wouldn't want to stay anyway due to the atmosphere being created by the hobos.

</comment></comment><comment><USER78> Free wi-fi? Free power? SOCIALISM!</comment>


Hacked electronic road signs warn of zombie attack - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_on_re_us/highway_signs_zombies

<comment><USER2> That reminds me of a hack from a few years ago, on Mass. Ave. right across MIT: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/noii/2331087223/></comment>


Police officers circumvent Waze by providing misinformation - <AUTHOR> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/02/06/police-officers-fight-waze-misinformation/ <comment><USER2> Compare the data against other Wazers reports. If certain Wazer keeps reporting cops that no other Wazers report...

</comment><comment><USER3> This is plain fraud.</comment>


Ask HN: How in the world do you optimize iPhone app promotion? - <AUTHOR>

For the past week or two I've been trying out different methods to promote an iPhone app (I'll probably post it in a "review my startup" thread pretty soon).
The HN mantra is measure, quantify, A/B test, optimize, etc.  The problem is that I'm very limited in what data I can actually get.
To some extent I can measure how effective my site is (for example, how many people click the "Download" button).  But as soon as they enter the Apple ecosystem, they're gone.  I have no idea how many people view the app's store page.  I have no idea where they're coming from (other than from my website).  I have no idea what the conversion rates in the final stage ("download") are, for users from different sources. I have no idea how effective the app description is - or, if I change it, whether it helps or hurts conversion rates.
I can maybe try to do some IP matching between visits to the website and people who launch the app, but this is very limited - for one, it only applies to users who download the app through my website; for another, there's no guarantee the IP will be the same.
Any ideas?  Most of the advice for iPhone app promotion tends to be "get blogs to talk about you", which is fine, but doesn't really help optimize the process.  I've found surprisingly little quality information on this topic.
Incidentally, I think this would be a "problem worth solving" - I can't be the only iPhone developer feeling this pain. <comment><USER2> At least for measuring clicks/conversions, you can look into Google Analytics for Mobile: [http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/tracking/mobileAp...](http://code.google.com/apis/analytics/docs/tracking/mobileAppsTracking.html)

This may be stating the obvious, but if your app is not free, obtain promo codes and give them out to people you know. They should give you some helpful feedback, e.g. "the initial screen is confusing" or "I can't figure out how to do X." Unfortunately there's no good way (AFAIK) to know exactly which promo codes have been redeemed.

Last but not least, App Store users could have a very short attention span. Spruce up your screenshots and make them "action-based" -- e.g. "drag here!" If your app's purpose is not immediately obvious, this can help engage them. Users don't always read the description text from my experience.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the link to Google Analytics for Mobile, I'll definitely look into it. I get the feeling it might break Apple's latest developer agreement ("the use of third party software in Your Application to collect and send Device Data to a third party for processing or analysis is expressly prohibited."), but what the heck, pretty much everything does nowadays.

Luckily it's a free app, at least that makes some things a lot easier.

And that's a good point about the screenshots - someone else commented earlier today that my screenshots are terrible, I'll have to fix them up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Yes, this is hard, due to the black-box nature of the App Store. Can't really measure conversions through it. Android is better for this - I've seen some developers release for Android, optimize and test there, and then take their learnings to produce an optimized application for iPhone.

In addition to Google Analytics for Mobile, there's a bunch of companies that have free products that allow measurement within iPhone applications and therefore optimization - Flurry, Motally, Mobclix, Medialets, Localytics, etc. I own a chunk of Flurry and think it's the best, but don't take my obviously biased word for it. None of them, including Google Analytics, measure mobile web to mobile app conversions. All of them are potentially affected by Apple's recent terms of service changes for iPhone 4.0. No one knows just how affected.

When it comes to promotions, the only area where you can reliably measure is app-to-app advertisements. (And again, who knows if this will be supported in iPhone 4.0.) Right now I know AdMob and Burstly offer conversion tracking if you're advertising through them. Flurry offers a cost-per-acquisition product called AppCircle which I think works quite well, but again, I'm biased.

Flurry also has some cross-application tracking (we'll show you how many users on your application A also use application B) but it doesn't quite meet your use case, because it won't show you users who were on application A _and_ touched the ad for application B _and_ then used application B. I don't _think_ any of the other companies mentioned above offer anything better than what Flurry's got - but I'm not certain.

</comment><comment><USER4> Admob does some awesome things with some special code in your app: adding it will track conversions from Admob ads into downloads.

Other than that there's no good way I know of to track download conversions.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've put that code in my app a while ago, don't think I ever got it to work... but I didn't spend much time on it. Right now I'm looking at a relatively new ad network, <http://www.burstly.com/>, they also have some download tracking - just waiting for the app update to get approved.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I wrote about this a while ago,

Apple currently does not offer any in itunes analytics, for instance, how many people view your app page, how long they spend, do they click the images, do they click buy, if they click buy, do they complete the purchase etc. I'm sure they are working on it...aren't they?</comment>


Eviction Filings Are Already Rising - <AUTHOR> https://slate.com/business/2020/07/eviction-filings-are-already-going-up.html <comment><USER2> People misjudge the landlord market there are yes tons of huge corporations or "family businesses" with a portfolio where a default doesn't really matter but the vast majority are people with 1-2 additional properties that feel like forgiving rent will make them not be able to make the mortgage against the property and then they'd default.

So the "heartless" landlord situation may be a bit more nuanced than these articles seem to indicate. Where it's legal to evict, landlords might be looking at their own finances and feeling like they don't have a choice either.</comment>


Pushing for diversity in the world of early stage startups - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/WelcomeAboardHQ/status/1281373022142652417 <comment><AUTHOR> We just launched our video series where we share the stories of amazing entrepreneurs pushing for diversity in tech.

In my day to day life, I am consulting for many seed and series a startups in SV and I have to say that early stage startups are not diverse at all, how can we make this better ?</comment>


The Hedgehog and the Fox: Learning How To Think - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hedgehog_and_the_Fox

<comment><USER2> This is one of my favorite metaphors. For those of you with an interest in analytical philosophy (and, really, if you thought this wikipedia link sounded interesting, you probably do have such an interest), Ronald Dworkin's upcoming book is called "Justice for Hedgehogs," and is a reference to this idea.

BU had a panel on it: [http://www.bu.edu/law/events/upcoming/documents/9.25.09Ronal...](http://www.bu.edu/law/events/upcoming/documents/9.25.09RonaldDworkinBrochure_Panels.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER3> "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing."

...but the badger knows the most important thing: how to eat hedgehogs.

([http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/6216749/Hedgehogs-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/6216749/Hedgehogs- in-decline-because-badgers-are-eating-them.html))

</comment><comment><USER4> Let's not forget those Hedgefoxes and Foxhogs who have a large, singular world view, but aren't blinded by it.</comment>


CompCert: verified compiler for a large subset of the C - <AUTHOR> http://compcert.inria.fr/doc/ <comment><AUTHOR> [https://github.com/AbsInt/CompCert/issues/211](https://github.com/AbsInt/CompCert/issues/211)</comment>


Our Universe Could Emerge as a Hologram - <AUTHOR> https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-our-universe-could-emerge-as-a-hologram-20190221/ <comment><USER2> Ah, the beauty of a powerful mind. As our high school dropouts are setting in their labs adding lithium from used cell phone batteries and Sudafed from wherever they can get it to cook a batch of methamphetamine for some quick cash, our most esteemed scientist are setting in their labs adding zeros from "zeroes unlimited" and "fuzzy" words from "scientific thesaurus" to cook up another grant for some quick cash.

After rereading the above paragraph I thought it to be too negative, but then I thought, "If indeed this is only a projection of a 2D reality then 3D movies are not really in 3D and I just paid way too much for the popcorn".

<comment><USER3> anti-intellectualism is no more attractive coming from a computer scientist as it is from an armchair expert on climate change. If you have nothing useful to offer...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> What does it matter?

<comment><USER5> Why do you ask, when you already know the answer?</comment></comment>