Raising the American Weakling - <AUTHOR> http://nautil.us/issue/45/power/raising-the-american-weakling <comment><USER3> Many of the comments here seem to be focussing on increasing grip strength but that misses something the article could have delved into more. Grip strength is strongly correlated with health and longevity, but its not directly causal - simply increasing your grip strength wont really add many years to your life. Instead grip strength is strong correlate with overall musculo-skeletal mass and strength, which does have a highly causal relationship with health and longevity. So, focussing purely on grip strength will do more to break the correlation than give you a long life.

If you want to have a healthy, long life focus on overall strength. Squats, deadlifts, odd-object carries etc. If you're new to lifting, have someone who isn't show you proper form. Or just read Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe. Its the bible of heavy lifts.

Source: I can deadlift more than 3 times my bodyweight while still having a 7 min mile.

<comment><USER4> > If you're new to lifting, have someone who isn't show you proper form.

I cannot emphasize this enough. And even then, be extremely careful with heavy lifts (anything more than, say, what your body weight would be at 20% body fat).

I worked regularly with an extremely good Rippetoe-certified coach. My form was better than most of the beginners you see in the gym. At 40, I was stronger than I was as a high-school athlete, and it was an amazing feeling.

But one day, a 245x5 squat set went very _slightly_ weird. Two days latter, I had tingling and numbness in my foot soles. It turns out that I'd aggravated a relatively minor disk bulge at L4/L5 (about half the population has a disk bulge there). And now I've been in moderate pain for close to three months with very slow improvement.

The long-term prognosis is excellent, as far as I know. I will almost certainly heal. I know plenty of people who've done worse to their backs and who are fine today.

But heed my example: If you're going to do heavy lifts, especially deadlifts or squats, make sure your form is as close to perfect as you can get it, and remember that you can't eliminate all risk.

One thing I have noticed: There are no 55- to 70-year-old powerlifters in the gym. But there _are_ old bodybuilders who've been lifting for 40+ years with only the rarest of injuries. They're careful, and they say things like, "I don't like the risk/reward on heavy squats." When I return to serious lifting, I'm considering on giving up on powerlifting and switching to a more bodybuilding-centric program.

<comment><USER5> squats are extremely dangerous, and I dont think anyone should do them. it only takes 1 set of bad form to permanently damage one's back or knees.

that doesnt stop body builders from spreading the gospel of squats, even as they have copious knee and/or back problems.

<comment><USER6> This is patently untrue. Provide some data or get out of here. Squats are universally accepted as one of the best natural movements of the body to train.

<comment><USER7> But neither is loading 3x your bodyweight onto your spine "natural". What does "universally accepted as one of the best natural movements" mean? - As you suggested to the previous comment, please "Provide some data or get out of here".

It all depends on your objective and goals. As with everything moderation is key. A balanced program of squats, deads, pushing exercise (chest/pecs) and a pulling (back/delts) is best for oevrall muscle, bone and tendon health. Whether you do this via free weights, body weight, or machines is really not material.

Rippetoe style heavy free-weight squats, squats and more squats is not the be all and end all of resistance training. Personally, I got into heavy strength training with Rippetoe's books and videos - and, IMHO, he did a great service by educating people about the benefits of heavy (free weight) strength training using a very very simple ('KISS') type program (at a time when the focus was on machines and overly complicated routines). His routines are great for beginners - especially very young ones - hence why they are copied and 're-mixed' so much (like Stronglifts 5x5 and countless variations thereof).

And I would really not suggest heavy squats for improving grip strength - <USER2> would be a very inefficient way to train your hand grip.

[http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/squat-versus- le...](http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/squat-versus-leg-press- for-big-legs.html/)

[http://www.thedreamlounge.net/barbell-squat-worst- exercise/](http://www.thedreamlounge.net/barbell-squat-worst-exercise/)

[http://ericcressey.com/newsletter91html](http://ericcressey.com/newsletter91html)

[https://criticalmas.com/2012/06/i-no-longer-give-a-squat- abo...](https://criticalmas.com/2012/06/i-no-longer-give-a-squat-about-the- squat/)

[http://community.myprotein.com/off-topic/28225-mark- rippetoe...](http://community.myprotein.com/off-topic/28225-mark-rippetoe- lyle-mcdonald-go-war-against-each-other.html)

[https://forums.t-nation.com/t/rippetoe-ripped- apart/191700/7](https://forums.t-nation.com/t/rippetoe-ripped-apart/191700/7)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I started indoor climbing 3 months ago and it's done wonders for my grip strength, as well as my overall health. I can't recommend it enough for engineers and other problem solving addicts. I was, frankly, bored by weight training and other more traditional exercise routes. Now I look forward to a nice change of pace - solving physical problems as opposed to logic problems.

<comment><USER9> I second your recommendation. For various reasons I haven't been doing it the last few years, but it was really good for me and I'd like to get back into it.

<comment><USER10> Another non-team sport that has good problem solving aspects but on a faster pace is trail running. You don't get the same thinking through a route you might have with rock climbing, but leaping over rocks and ruts requires some quick subconscious analysis and careful pacing that can be quite exhilarating.

<comment><USER11> You could do orienteering, then you get the mental aspect also. It is really fun and you get the forest running.

<comment><USER12> Seconded. I did quite a lot of orienteering as a child and enjoyed it a lot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Pull ups build grip strength and they recruit a lot of other muscles. Hanging is one thing, but you need grip plus lat muscles to pull yourself up over something. I have Olympic rings that I have brought with me when working all over the world. I even had my baby almost two now hang from them when she was just one and a half years old. She held her own bodyweight for 10 seconds before my wife and in-laws flipped out. Same when I brought her swimming since birth. I lived in SE Asia for over 8 years. The last year I lived in a Javanese village in Indonesia. The average male weighed about 140 lb plus or minus, and they could lift 130 lb bags of rice and load a truck for hours on end. I could do it at 180 lb, but not as long a time as they could. The last part of lifting it above shoulder height for me to put it in the truck was the ultimate fatigue test. That was above their heads, and more like a full press for them. I admired their strength and smiles throughout all of this hard labor and poverty. Now I have returned to NY, and the number of obese people I see, and the number of walking aids, electric shopping carts, and other signs of malady are more striking and apparent to me. I was running barefoot 3 or more miles a day in the rice fields and jumping rope along with bodyweight exercises. I am 52 and I have never felt better physically or mentally. It only takes desire or willpower. Also I went vegetarian over 3 years ago, and cut eggs and dairy 2 years ago.

<comment><USER14> You see those people here because if they were in poverty in those other places they would be dead.

<comment><USER15> Not quite - if the weak here died, it would be almost 100% dieoff. Its more to do with lifestyle?

<comment><USER14> Not people who are currently weak but people who can't be strong in those specific ways. So not 100% die-off but a stronger divide between healthy and dead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Have you seen how many people complain about carrying a 2 to 5 lb laptop a few miles? No wonder strength is down across the board.

Go dig a hole every now and again. Do some sandbag training. Play on the monkeybars with your kids. DO SHIT and lift heavy stuff when you can.

<comment><USER17> I'm in France currently and it's been a while since I've seen monkey bars in a kid playground. Along with swings and sand, they've been deemed too dangerous by the authorities.

With the current playgrounds, I don't think kids have a lot of opportunities to build up strength. Less than we did as a kid.

<comment><USER18> Sand? What's the danger with sand? Eye injuries?

<comment><USER19> Not good enough at absorbing impact, ergo, deemed unsafe[1]. Last I recall, the recommendation was to replace it with wood chips, but I think even that's been superseded to be rubber chips instead, which also happen to be considerably more expensive.

To my eye, I deem spurious any science that concludes their findings with 'grass is unsafe', but at the same time I must acknowledge that sure, many of the things we did as kids were dangerous, and just because it was normative to me doesn't mean that it should be normative -- in the same way that kids no longer ride in the backs of pickup trucks, or try to loop around the swingset.

That said, it's still pretty hard to get over the fact that the ground is considered actively harmful enough that we would close down playgrounds in response.

[1] - [http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jou...](http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1000195)

<comment><USER18> Perhaps you mistyped? The conclusion in the paper you linked to was the opposite:

 _Granitic sand playground surfaces reduce the risk of arm fractures from playground falls when compared with engineered wood fibre surfaces. Upgrading playground surfacing standards to reflect this information will prevent arm fractures._

<comment><USER19> Probably I mis-remembered and my slapdash attempt at finding a source was in error (which makes twice in two days for me, embarrassingly.)

I remember of the studies perhaps better than I remember the studies, but the gist is that there's a hierarchy of playground surfaces. I thought it was:

grass < sand < wood < rubber

but I suppose it's more like

grass < wood < sand < rubber

Regardless, sand does appear to be considered acceptable by CPSC guidelines[1], in which they recommend ATSM F1292 tested wood fibers, pea gravel, sand, rubber mulch, non-CCA-treated wood mulch, and recommend against asphalt, concrete, carpet not tested to ATSM F1292, dirt, grass, and CCA- treated wood mulch.

Apologies for the error, and thanks for the correction.

[1] - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/325.pdf](https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs- public/325.pdf)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> If you want to simulate our "arboreal ancestors" to improve grip strength then you could probably do no better than joining a rock climbing gym. Every time I visit mine I leave with my forearms aching and plenty of freshly torn calluses. It's fun as hell, maybe in part because we as humans used to need an inborn propensity for it.

<comment><USER21> Totally anecdotal here, but I would not hesitate to wager that many climbers' grip strengths lie way outside the normal range. The sport has a higher grip exercise-to-cardiovascular exercise ratio (however you might measure that) than probably any other sport that exists today.

<comment><USER22> Maybe for 'gym rat' climbers. Gyms have larger holds and steeper walls. Climbing in the real world is more about balance and legs/feet. You almost never hang off your hands. Instead you are gripping tiny flakes of rock in an effort to keep weight over your feet. Hands and fingers will get abused in cracks (something gyms dont have) but im not so sure about grip.

<comment><USER23> Not trying to sound arrogant, but this is simply false. Source: me. I climb 5.13/V10.

<comment><USER22> And I lead 5.11c walls. It's a big sport.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> A few simple grip trainers from Amazon did wonders for my weightlifting.

A couple years ago, I was a novice with barbells. After a month of failing to progress on barbell lifts, I realized that my grip strength was lacking. The trainers solved the problem.

I'd highly recommend anyone start with basic grip training with a barbell routine. Made a huge difference for me.

<comment><USER25> Any specific recommendations? I've tried few, but wasn't impressed.

<comment><USER24> [https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C1DW2UO/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C1DW2UO/). If you are male, start with the 60, 80, and 100 lb strengths. If you are female, start with 40, 60, 80. Cap'n of Crush is great, but will also grate your hands and forms callouses. I don't like being covered in callouses all the time. Also, these are more innocuous and will make you look like less of a meathead in public.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Well yeah. Use it or lose it, as they say. In weightlifting and powerlifting, grip strength is something that some people focus on in their training...can help a lot with deadlifting and such. Things like farmer's walk or just single-handed static barbell holds can help improve grip strength a ton.

<comment><USER27> If you're interested, head over to /r/griptraining. One of the most frustrating things about grip, is how _specific_ each kind of grip strength is. Pinch grip (tripod pinch) vs static holds vs ulnar grip, all require specific training.

<comment><USER28> As far as I know strength in general follows a fundamentally similar pattern (i.e. strength gain doesn't translate much among different movements); I assume the difference is that there are more joints in your hands and hence more permutations of angles under tension.

<comment><USER29> Static strength is also notably different than dynamic strength. Additionally, it is not uncommon to come up against soft tissue (ligament and tendon) limitations when doing strength work with the hands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Grip strength has strong ties to overall cardiovascular health. Since a strong developed heart can adequately supply the blood flow necessary for a strong grip. Focusing on grip strength isn't terribly important, relative to focusing on overall cardiovascular health. Grip strength is a good example of correlation, since it's a byproduct of overall health.

Working a sedentary desk job, it's _really_ important to deliberately make time for proper exercise. Running, swimming, biking, or whatever, It's important to exert yourself. That being said, I don't think it would hurt too much to do some hand exercises regularly.

<comment><USER31> I'm a musician - I use many different grip-strength trainers on a regular basis at the desk. One of my favorites is power putty, but the traditional one-per-finger squeeze tool is good too.

<comment><USER32> I'm at the phase of my musical career where my desk routine is mostly stretching against RSI injuries. But even back in the day, nothing but hours on the instrument ever helped my hand strength. The motor skills are just too fiddly and specialized-- you lift, you row, et cetera, mostly I found I played worse.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> BBC Radio Four's _Inside Health_ programme had an "exercise special" and the links between weakness and mortality were discussed, and "can you open a jam jar?" is used as a rough and ready diagnostic question.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06vkg24](http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06vkg24)

</comment><comment><USER34> For those looking to geek out on grip training: [https://www.reddit.com/r/GripTraining/wiki/faq](https://www.reddit.com/r/GripTraining/wiki/faq)

</comment><comment><USER35> Deadlifts seem to be doing wonders for my grip strength. For a while my grip was the limiting factor on my dead lift. Actually most pulling exercises are going to work your grip strength. By the end of my pull days I struggle to hold on to light dumbbells for a whole set.

<comment><USER36> I made the mistake of deadlifting the morning before trapeze practice once.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> > Pound per pound, babies are remarkably strong.

So are ants: How much of that baby-power is just the square-cube law applied to smaller-humans?

</comment><comment><USER3> Second thought - many of the problems faced by modern society could be solved if everybody spent a few hours a week under a heavy barbell or picking one up.

<comment><USER38> Many of the problems faced by modern society could be solved if everybody spent a few hours a week doing something other than sitting in a chair, lying down, or staring at a screen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> No affiliation, but I really like [http://gmb.io](http://gmb.io). I'm a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so I find dynamic body weight movements more engaging than weight lifting or yoga. The progressions on the site are fantastic - some of the best movement pedagogy I've seen.

</comment><comment><USER40> I find practicing yoga to be surprisingly helpful in building grip strength. Many balancing postures are really good for this.

<comment><USER41> Which postures increase grip strength? Binds? What form of yoga do you practice?

<comment><USER42> All the arm-balance poses and handstanding are dependent on grip strength, at least to do properly. Maybe I'm conflating finger/forearm/wrist strength with "grip", but they sure feel related. The crow pose and handstanding seem to help my DL, and visa versa.

<comment><USER40> Really many forward standing poses offer opportunity to use the mat as resistance (even downward-facing dog). Probably want to look into this with an instructor as there are techniques to improve resistance while limiting tendon strain.

Basic grip exercises like balling & extending fists can be easily worked into practice as well, perhaps while focusing on the feet in a toe squat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I'm not able to access the full study, but I'm impressed that they could get statistical significance with 237 people. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26869476](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26869476)

<comment><USER44> Why? If you can't get significance with 237 people your effect size is likely so negligible that it's not worth studying anyway.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> Basketball. If grip is your main concern, simply play basketball. I remember during fitness tests at my first university after I squeezed grip measuring device outside its scale, the coach remarked that I surely must be playing basketball, he was seeing it all the time.

<comment> atom-morgan What am I missing here? I wouldn't associate basketball with grip strength and I played a lot growing up.

<comment><USER46> If you're just shooting hoops, it won't help. If you're actually playing the team sport with aggressive opponents (in pickup or with refs who "let 'em play"), the ball will get ripped out of your hands every time you pick it up, and then your grip strength will improve.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I love my Rock Rings[1], I've been doing pullups on them a few times a week for years.

[1] ([http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/training_giude_rock_ring.htm...](http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/training_giude_rock_ring.html))

<comment><USER48> I've been considering a training board, but it's too much hassle to put up. So, I've been using towels over my pull-up bar, but this seems great for $30.

Thanks. Bought!

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> relsted to the secular decline in testosterone (whatever's causing that)?

<comment><USER50> Secular??

<comment><USER51> "(of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period. "there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular""

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> "We can even now read of pro athletes unable to complete a single pull-up" is very disingenuous. I won't extol on the benefits of exercise since the first principle is to not fool yourself.

</comment><comment><USER11> Good thing I do Judo! Those higher belt guys got unbelievable grip strength, it is not something you simply strip off if they get a hold of you.

</comment><comment><USER53> I think it's more like if you're close to dying you might also have some trouble grabbing on to stuff.

>> Grip strength was not only "inversely associated with all-cause mortality"—every 5 kilogram (kg) decrement in grip strength was associated with a 17 percent risk increase"

Statements like this one need a min/max, better yet some quartiles, to even start to make sense. The relationship can't possibly be linear.

<comment><USER54> "I think it's more like" and "can't possibly be" are useless layman speculation unless backed by hard data.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Break rocks with a sledge hammer. Best workout ever.

</comment><comment><USER56> Did they mention power steering?

</comment><comment> guard-of-terra I thoroughly hate the idea of exercise. It's when you are pretending that you're accomplishing something that requires physical load, while in reality doing nothing. This whole busy work is so mind-bogglingly boring.

I would rather trek for five hours than one hour of "exercise". However, I have no idea what to do with my arms. Not much useful applications to muscular strength in modern world.

It's a disgrace that workout is not automated yet, and there's no signs to it. Make some box or some pill that will keep my body in the shape without me noticing. We solved transportation, why can't we do something here?

<comment><USER57> Maybe find a sport that's a game and fairly technical? And interesting for you. For example, when I play tennis I don't notice the time and fatigue, and I can be playing 5 hours non-stop in the summer.

<comment> guard-of-terra I really liked throwing frisbee, unfortunately these days I have neither place nor company to do this.

<comment><USER57> Place an ad on craigslist? I'd be careful though. A friend of mine searched for an activity partner there, and ended up getting married a few years later.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How much faster is Redis at storing a blob of JSON compared to PostgreSQL? 16× - <AUTHOR> https://www.peterbe.com/plog/redis-vs-postgres-blob-of-json <comment><USER2> And did the OP try using Postgres with enough RAM allocated to it so that it could keep the entire database in memory?

In one test I've done, I saw running a full report going from taking five hours to just fifteen minutes. Which, coincidentally, is a factor if 20x.

So, maybe he could see comparable speeds, if he gave Postgres the ability to do the read and store operations the same way that Redis does?

</comment><comment><USER3> How about making it redis+msgpack vs. postgresql json-like?</comment>


Apple and IBM Forge Global Partnership to Transform Enterprise Mobility - <AUTHOR> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2014/07/15Apple-and-IBM-Forge-Global-Partnership-to-Transform-Enterprise-Mobility.html

<comment><USER2> Is this saying that IBM can preload their enterprise software onto the iDevices without having to go through the Apple Store? Or perhaps there'll be a private-labeled store?

And does this mean that Apple won't be taking their usual 30% of the entire sale, if the app significantly extends the functionality of IBM's software? Because 30% of the typical enterprise sale is a lot of money, and I can't see Ginni letting go of that much on their way to $20 EPS.

<comment><USER3> IBM will probably be using the standard iOS MDM APIs. [https://www.apple.com/ipad/business/it/management.html](https://www.apple.com/ipad/business/it/management.html)

AFAIK MDM allows a company to create an internal app store that does not pay the 30% tax, although there may be some weaseling about how the mobile app is actually free but the server it talks to costs money.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I find this very interesting after many years of Apple not pushing the enterprise particularly hard, but the question that pops into my head is how many large companies are still using IBM technology? Do companies still use their software or has everyone moved on?

<comment><USER5> I'm sure there are plenty of companies happily using Lotus Notes, however horrendous that sounds. What's the alternative, Exchange?

(I would use Google Apps, but I might also be biased as to how good of an idea that is ;)

<comment><USER6> The irony is that Exchange is a lot better than Lotus Notes.

<comment><USER7> Yes but that is only because Lotus Notes is an absolute pile of crap. Exchange in itself isn't that good either.

<comment><USER8> Lotus Notes is the devil. Jesus Christ, I hate it. They need to kill Lotus Notes, really the only valuable thing from it I feel is Sametime, but that can stand by itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Hell have truly frozen over. I remember when I started writing for MacOS in 1985 IBM was the enemy. Makes sense for Apple today since they are much much bigger than IBM and have nothing to lose. IBM needs all the help it can get.

<comment><USER10> What are you talking about - IBM and Apple working together is old news. There was Taligent in the early 90s. There was the AIM PPC alliance which lasted from the early 90s to 2005. These companies are old friends who haven't been true enemies since the 1980s.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Interview with both CEOs.

[http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000292886](http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000292886)

</comment><comment><USER12> It's worth noting the word Mac doesn't appear anywhere in the press release except for in Apple's standard footer.

</comment><comment><USER13> This must be a big hit for Roambi.

</comment><comment><USER14> Its good see PR is still written in english.</comment>


Bacteria-detecting strip of plastic film could make best-before dates irrelevant - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/salmonella-listeria-dna-ultraviolet-light-1.4736801 <comment><USER2> A bacteria-detecting strip encourages companies to use more anti-bacterial toxins on food and that is a very bad thing. For those unfamiliar with the human microbiome: the gut of a healthy person has 3 pounds of bacteria, of which 85% are "good" bacteria. Scientific research has shown that killing your beneficial gut bacteria (with antibacterial toxins) is linked to a long list of nasty illnesses. Note that packaged meat in the supermarket already has a anti-bacterial spray of which the law says that it does not have to mentioned on the label.

<comment><USER3> Or they want it to go bad quickly so you buy more...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Don't bacteria grow more readily in the inside of food rather then the surface due to moisture and what not?</comment>


The Temporary Autonomous Zone (1985) - <AUTHOR> https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism#toc45 <comment><USER2> fascinating read in the context of what's happening in Seattle in CHAZ (even though the resemblance is very very shallow)</comment>


Ask HN: Ideas for exploring computing with youth 11-13? - <AUTHOR> Last week, I spent some time with about 10 youth, aged 11-13, just answering questions about being a programmer, and a couple different areas of the software industry.
They've expressed desire in doing a little more to explore programming and computers.
I'm looking for any good ideas on how to spend 60-70 minutes with them giving them a brief/light/fun/positive/enlightening experience wit computing.
I know some kids like to do hour of code or Kahn academy, but I'm looking for an idea that is more group related and doesn't require everyone to have their own computer.
One thing I've toyed with is some simple cryptography stuff where we demonstrate with very simplified public key encryption stuff, do some of the math by hand with secrets they want to share with each other, and maybe a little python on a projector to take it up a notch. But any ideas/experiences are welcome. <comment><USER2> I've had my eye on a turing tumble set for a friend's kid in the same boat.

[https://www.turingtumble.com/](https://www.turingtumble.com/)</comment>


Edge install undermines Microsoft's argument that automatic updates are critical - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/21310611/microsoft-edge-browser-forced-update-chromium-editorial <comment><USER2> Without respect to the facts, it's funny as hell to see this called "a new low" when browser bundling is what got them sued by the United States 20 years ago.

<comment> default-kramer This is worse in my opinion. In the '90s, you could argue that precedent hadn't truly been set yet. Now that case is almost common knowledge in tech. They can't even pretend to have an excuse this time around. Until today, I thought "Microsoft is doing pretty good." Now I want nothing more than to see them sued/fined heavily for this.

EDIT: I can see now that I wrote carelessly. By "This is worse" I meant "This is more blatantly illegal." Not "This is more detrimental to the world." The '90s browser bundling was probably much more detrimental, but not unexpected behavior. But the recent behavior was very unexpected to me. I had to use Task Manager to kill it. I can't believe Microsoft would be so bold as to not even give me some small, hard-to-read "no thanks" button somewhere.

<comment><USER3> We weren't mad at Microsoft for bundling software. We were mad at them for strangling out anyone whose shadow even looked like competition.

People with 10% market share are allowed to do a whole hell of a lot of things that become illegal when you have 90% market share. I suspect this is part of why monopolies are so uniformly recalcitrant. From their perspective, we didn't have problems with them doing this 10 years ago, why are we upset about it now when they have assets worth taking away as a punishment? It's just a money grab. They're just winning and we're just jealous.

If I own a grocery store, I'm selling formula for below cost to get people into my store. It's called a Loss Leader. If I'm the biggest formula maker in the world, and I sell formula below cost, that's called Dumping and I will be fined and punished if anyone can prove that I am 'too big' and that this is driving competition out of business.

<comment><USER4> If there are major economies of scale to a business, what if it's optimal to have a duopoly, regulated of course to prevent collusion? Maybe we need to have more of a system for directly dealing with that situation.

<comment><USER5> I think right now it's just optimal to have a duopoly because it protects the bigger guy from getting in trouble for being a monopoly, and secures the little guy all the leftovers. like Microsoft saving Apple from bankruptcy or Google paying firefoxs bills.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Aaaand it seems to have registered itself at some point as default pdf viewer, overriding my previous setting. Not sure when that happened but isn't it just lovely.

<comment><USER7> The pdf thing is really annoying. I've reset it many times manually and patched seem to keep resetting it to Edge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Am I alone in absolutely loving Edge? It has finally unseated Chromium for me. It has all the benefits of the latest Chromium build without having to rely on sketchy binaries uploaded to some website, or giving Google total ownership of my web browsing. Sure Microsoft now fills that role, but they already own my OS anyways, so I'd rather reduce my "privacy surface area" as much as possible. Plus it has great built in privacy features like automatically deleting all browsing history after every session, and built in adblocking. I agree that the behavior outlined in this post is annoying, but the reality is that heavily managed automatic updating is the future for consumer grade software, and for good reason. If you're not a fan, just use Linux or an LTS Windows release.

<comment><USER9> Does it really matter? By nature, all web browsers are essentially the same, with identical features, except some are open source and others are not.

<comment><USER10> They don't all have the same engines and some of what they do have is non- standard.

Meanwhile from a user perspective some browsers differ in extensions and configuration etc. So if you get a monoculture which causes sites to start relying on non-standard features of only specific browsers, it makes it harder for people to use or create other browsers that aren't bug-compatible with the only one anybody is targeting.

The "fast iteration" browser makers like is also damage, because it causes cruft to accumulate. Once you add a feature, sites start using it and you're stuck with it basically forever. See how long it took to get rid of Flash. But now they add features at such a pace that Chrome is now like 35 million lines of code, all of which is attack surface which causes all browsers to have disproportionately many security vulnerabilities.

Having multiple independent browsers requires new features to go through a standardization process that requires buy in from multiple implementations before sites can rely on them, which causes the changes to be fewer and more carefully considered -- a good thing for something you'll be stuck with ~forever.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Probably some software VP got a directive from higher up to see to it that their browser/software penetration stats are increasing, and opportunities for tie-ins with other products too, so this is what you get.

I would guess it is not a customer-product integrity driven priority.

</comment><comment> cadence- New low? It's par for the course for microsoft. They have been doing this for years.

<comment><USER12> If it weren't par, a new low would be better, right? I don't do sports ball.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Consider Linux. I recommend the "Debian" flavor, with a "Mate" desktop.

It's a no-brainer to install. It works exactly like all the other desktops. And it's faster, more secure, more stable and doesn't try to sell you stuff. It's also free.

<comment><USER14> Manjaro is much better, or Ubuntu. With Debian you'll be lucky to get acceleration support and constantly be searching for unofficial repos to install modern software.

<comment><USER13> I haven't tried Manjaro.

Last time I checked Ubuntu was becoming a bit of a pig and it had suffered some kind of desktop disaster.

I have not encountered the problems with Debian that you describe but maybe my needs (browsing, coding and light video editing) are just that small.

<comment><USER15> You don't have to use the default window manager for Ubuntu. I used to have Arch and Ubuntu LTS with i3 window manager. I found it easier to maintain Ubuntu LTS with i3 as my window manager.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> If Windows 10's forced automatic updates were really being done just for security, Microsoft would offer the option to use LTSC. It's a painfully obvious solution—keep everyone secure, without changing their system out from under them. Microsoft is producing the code anyway.

It's not about security.

</comment><comment><USER17> I am pretty sure that you get the browser prompt to switch your default browser anytime you install a new browser (or any app the registers as a file or url handler). It has your current default on the top with the other choices below, I don't see what is so objectionable about it.

Now the full-screen splash page is obnoxious. There has to be a more tasteful way to inform the user of a large Edge update.

<comment><USER18> What's objectionable?

1\. _I_ didn't install it. _You_ (Microsoft) installed (actually updated) it. And because you chose to update it, you think that gives you the right to nag me again about making Edge the default browser? Edge was already on my machine; I already answered that question. Stop nagging me about it.

2\. If I just want it to shut up and get out of my face, _it won 't let me close it by right-clicking on the taskbar._

3\. It's slow to load, so I have to _wait_ for it before I can get rid of it (or else use the task manager, which also takes time).

Yeah, I'd call the combination of those things "objectionable". I might call it stronger terms, too.

<comment><USER19> > (or else use the task manager, which also takes time)

Tried that, left an arrow pointing at the place on the taskbar where the Edge window used to be. Wouldn't go away without a reboot.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> They hit that low for me when they did the exact same thing with Windows 10 upgrades. When people's PC eventually shut down to restart mid-work, because they just minimized the upgrade pop-up instead of telling it "later" \- which were the only two options to begin with. When this involuntary upgrade bricked some laptop models. When they snuck a popup for either OneDrive or Win10 into an important security update.

The whole point of an operating system is to work and get out of peoples way. Every needless distraction is a design flaw. Microsoft has, time and again, proven that they either don't understand or care about that and as such are not qualified to be OS vendors.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'm not a fan of the Edge browser.

I migrated away from Chrome -to Firefox- over a year ago and haven't looked back. I don't want a re-skinned Chrome browser. I don't want Chrome. I don't want Edge.

Please Microsoft, listen to your users and stop trying to shove your products in our faces. If we want to try your products we will. If we don't want to use your products, then your own guerrilla-style tactics are only hurting your marketing efforts.

When people feel they have a choice, they're more likely to be satisfied with the outcome. When people feel they're cornered, the experience is less than satisfying and is almost guaranteed to backfire on the one doing the cornering.

I hope you're listening Microsoft...

<comment><USER22> > When people feel they have a choice, they're more likely to be satisfied > with the outcome.

Is this really the case? or is it more so that people want the illusion of choice? Let's not forget that the other major OS in the world has you locked into using one browser engine regardless of whatever browser you install i.e. you have the illusion of choice but not really. Would people be okay if Microsoft forced all browsers to use Chromium on Windows?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> The actual article title of "With Edge, Microsoft's forced Windows updates just sank to a new low" is a better explanation of what the article is about, imho. The word "throat" appears nowhere on the page.

</comment><comment><USER24> Sure they needed to do this eventually since IE11 is coming to end of life soon. This isn't as shady as it appears

</comment><comment><USER25> I don't have this problem. Firefox still my browser. No Edge in sight to do the shenanigans described in article. I even ran manually a "check for updates" and came back saying I am up to date.

But I have a local account, and I've disabled all of Win10 crap using WPD. Maybe that's why? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

</comment><comment><USER26> It's a dirty move, but it's an immensely lucrative move.

By switching users to Edge, they are switching them to Bing. The vast majority of users won't notice the switch since Edge and Bing both look a lot like Chrome and Google.

This will give MS billions of dollars of additional advertisement revenue.

</comment><comment><USER27> Be part of the solution - ditch Windows, switch to Linux and pick any browser you want. Problem solved.

</comment><comment><USER28> I get that technically it is a new app and it is a browser... but edge has been bundled (outside of europe) since... ever. So has been the dark pattern of pushing for 'a better browser'. BTW, google does the same in their digital 'property' (they push for chrome - aggressively). Got no horse in the game but feels like '90s-hate-m$' nostalgia. How is this news?

In 2020, can you tell me of an OS that doesn't nag you for updates or do so 'during down times'? Ahhh yes... an 'eol' android device from obscure (or not so obscure) android vendor...

</comment><comment><USER29> Would be interesting to see how it pins itself to the taskbar and what Microsoft is going to do if other programs start doing that.

</comment><comment><USER30> The more things change the more things stay the same.

I'm imagining good ole bill smiling away, "that's a good boy satya."

<comment><USER31> i wonder if they play videos of bill at the ms board meetings. i imagine a goat sacrifice to help them create their evil schemes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> We need a revision of anti trust law as well as significant increase in enforcement.

</comment><comment><USER33> Though many web developers rejoice at the increased adoption rate leaving IE behind.

</comment><comment><USER34> It's a good thing. Also please uninstall IE6-11, old Edge automatically. :)

Anyway, you can write the exactly same article about a random DLL/service you never asked for somewhere in C:\windows\\* running in the background or hooking into apps doing whatever.

This is what you get running a proprietary OS.

<comment><USER35> There are lots of enterprise applications that will break in Edge and Chrome, and only work in IE, e.g. anything that uses XML Data Islands.

<comment><USER36> Chromium Edge includes IE mode, which uses the Trident engine to render the page:

[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie- mode](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie-mode)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> ....Microsoft pushed their new native browser out ....the horror!!!! I guess we should be mad at Google and Apple for forcing their browsers on us too.

</comment><comment><USER38> Great, now do one for Safari

<comment><USER39> I don't remember (desktop) Safari force installing a new version, opening full-screen undismissable popups, or setting itself as my default PDF viewer. But ok, sure, Apple bad too!

Great discussion!

<comment><USER38> Can you uninstall desktop safari? How about mobile safari?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> How many months until Github only renders in Edge?

<comment><USER41> No problem on your own site, just "npm install best-viewed-in-edge"!

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> This isn't a 'new low'. Microsoft has always taken advantage of its monopoly position to take control.

This is no different from the Netscape/Internet Explorer shenanigans of the 1990s. Trouble is, the new generation of computer users don't know MSFT's previous history so they are "shocked!".

For the rest of us, it's just Microsoft being a dick as usual.

<comment><USER43> The thing for me is, so much of Microsoft has shown serious improvements over the past decade. You've got Azure's push in the cloud championing (at least some) truly open source community-driven projects like Kubernetes (rather than Amazon's ECS), you've got Office unveiling their new Fluid document format as open source day 1, you've got WSL2, Xbox under Phil Spencer making a huge push to find more equitable ways to satisfy both gamers' desire for more games and developers' need for revenue with Game Pass, the push to bridge console generations with Smart Delivery, the push to bridge console and PC with unified digital licensing...

And then they do things like this. The Windows core team feels to me like a clandestine shadow organization in Microsoft whose location is unknown even to Nadella. Of course, that's not what's happening, and its startling to me that no one has cracked down on them for this shitty behavior.

Its not representative of how Microsoft, by and large, operates today. It is representative of how they used to operate.

<comment><USER44> What makes me sad is it's not even necessary. I have complete confidence Microsoft can turn chromium into a better Chrome than Google can. It would be easy - integrate a real ad blocker. It's something Google would never do but makes no difference to Microsoft.

<comment><USER45> What do you mean makes no difference? Microsoft runs Yahoo/Bing Ad Network, an Adsense competitor, plus serves ads and telemetry all over.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> And that's a good thing.

</comment><comment><USER47> You're using winblows, you gave up your rights as a user already.

<comment><USER14> Pretty much. Closed source at it's core for people that can't be bothered with freedom and don't mind being lab rats.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> No different than what Google does when you visit any of it's properties.

<comment><USER49> Visiting google.com doesn't silently install Chrome.

<comment><USER50> Chrome does use bundleware and dark patterns to trick users into installing it. It's done this for years in things like free Windows antivirus, the Flash installer, etc. I've had to uninstall Chrome from my mom's computer 3 times. [https://imgur.com/gallery/WWZxj](https://imgur.com/gallery/WWZxj)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> This reads more like a hit piece. Just close the browser and use chrome ff as default anyway. You are on windows platform, aren't you ? This discussion was already over and Microsoft already lost.

<comment><USER49> You can't close it (easily). The [X] button, Alt+F4, Ctrl+W, etc. are all blocked and you have to click a "Get Started" button to unblock it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> That Microsoft is going this way now is pretty interesting, because the parallels to Internet Explorer seem pretty obvious - IIRC they really considered putting a FUD messsge in front of the Netscape website (uncertain about this, please correct if applicable). It looks like they have gotten too comfortable again.

They have probably calculated the backlash and decided it was worth it because most people actually just don't care.

It's going to get so much worse without proper regulation, the trend has been clear for years.</comment>


Why I'm sticking with Vim - <AUTHOR> http://schwabcenter.com/blog/whyvim/

<comment><AUTHOR> _"Most Vim users start and stop many sessions per day -- considering the editor sessions to be subservient to the longer-running parent command shell"_

That's not how I use vim. I keep a single gvim session open at all times, and do 99% of my editing there. Only about 1% of the time will I start a short- lived vim session in my shell to quickly do something that I don't feel like switching to my gvim screen for.</comment>


Vitamin D and cancer prevention - <AUTHOR> https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/diet/vitamin-d-fact-sheet <comment><USER2> Take the extremes; is cancer incidence markedly lower in perpetually sunny cities like Phoenix or Los Angeles compared to perpetually cloudy cities like Seattle or Portland? Surely the data would show if there were a notable difference for people exposed to 11 months of sun versus 10 months of clouds.

<comment><USER3> That's almost exactly how they found the connection, from the article:

> Early epidemiologic research showed that incidence and death rates for > certain cancers were lower among individuals living in southern latitudes, > where levels of sunlight exposure are relatively high, than among those > living at northern latitudes

An obvious problem is confounding variables, this isn't a controlled correlation in any way. The article goes on to say:

> However, additional research based on stronger study designs is required to > determine whether higher vitamin D levels are related to lower cancer > incidence or death rates.

<comment><USER4> This reminds me of autoimmune disease like MS. They are more common in higher latitudes (where there happens to be less sunlight), and there is a connection to low Vitamin D that isn't understood.

While attempting to understand the link better, UW-Madison researchers recently produced data implying that the ingredients of some sunscreen products may provide benefit in preventing MS. [https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/07/28/sunscreen-ms-and- hard-b...](https://www.acsh.org/news/2017/07/28/sunscreen-ms-and-hard-believe- scientific-finding-11617)

<comment><USER5> There was a piece in the New Scientist a couple of years ago that said type 1 diabetes seems to be correlated with higher latitudes. They suggested it was related to Vitamin D.

<comment><USER4> Yes, like MS, type 1 diabetes is considered to be an autoimmune disease. It's surprising to me as someone who hasn't studied medicine how related to each other autoimmune issues seem to be. Rheumatoid arthritis and latitude is another one that follows this same pattern. This article from 2010 about rheumatoid arthritis also mentions the link to low vitamin D levels, and that the link isn't understood.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920915/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920915/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I was shocked when I got my vitamin D levels analyzed a couple of years ago. Yeah I work inside most of the time, like most programmers, but I also walk to work and easily get 10000 steps a day, so I thought I'd be OK. Nope, guess it wasn't enough especially since I'm in Chicago. My levels were in the deficient range. I now take supplements daily.

<comment><USER7> Out of curiosity, do you remember what levels they suggested you be at? I've heard there are a lot of different opinions on this.

Some important factors on receiving Vitamin D from sun exposure are skin color, the amount of clothing you wear & time of day.

Light skin absorbs more than dark skin. Noon gives more Vitamin D than morning or evening. Sun screen & sun screen lotion limit the Vitamin D you get.

Being a fellow northerner, walking outside doesn't do much in the winter when 95% of my body is covered in clothing.

Science Vs did a great podcast on this - [https://gimletmedia.com/episode/vitamins-supplements- worth/](https://gimletmedia.com/episode/vitamins-supplements-worth/) (Vitamin D is their first supplement they discuss & the link provides a transcript for skimming)

My personal experience (with no medical background except the Chiropractor's wife who recommended it) finds that Vitamin D supplements (5,000 IU) seems to help prevent & shorten colds & flu-like bugs. I mostly take that dosage when feeling slightly ill or run down.

<comment><USER6> Took me forever to find (I now digitize and save my records but didn't then) but it was 30 ng/ml. Sounds like that is actually not deficient by most standards. My doctor was a little woo at the time. I started taking 1800 iu.

I do have extremely pale skin, but I yeah, a lot of it ends up covered in the winter.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> But no mention of vitamin K2. Not necessarily for cancer but for calcium regulation and the synergy of working with D3.

</comment><comment><USER9> In the UK it's impossible to get Vitamin D from the Sun during Winter months, due to the high latitudes (it's above all of the US apart from Alaska, and is also above most of the population of Canada), even if you walk around naked at noon for an hour! Doctors here recommend everyone to take supplements.

From what I recall the season is from mid October to mid March. There's a few Vitamin D online calculators about if you're curious about where you live, also.

</comment><comment><USER10> They mention that people in the Southern Hemisphere get more sun and have a lower incidence of cancer, but is that also true of Australians? Cause on average, people from the Southern Hemisphere have a lower caloric intake, which has also been linked to lower rates of cancer in general.

That being said, I really enjoy the fact that scientists are following so many rabbits in the war against cancer. This is going to pay huge dividends on the long run.

<comment><USER11> > people from the Southern Hemisphere have a lower caloric intake

Do you have a source for this claim? In America, while not in the Southern Hemisphere, the CDC's Obesity Prevalence maps [1] show that obesity is concentrated in the southern states.

2017 Fattest Cities in America [2]: 1\. Houston 4. Memphis 5. Tampa 6. Las Vegas 7. El Paso 9. Los Angeles 11. Tulsa 12. Miami

[1] [https://www.vox.com/2014/11/17/7230641/maps-charts- obesity-w...](https://www.vox.com/2014/11/17/7230641/maps-charts-obesity- weightloss)

[2] [https://www.mensfitness.com/weight-loss/burn-fat-fast/the- fi...](https://www.mensfitness.com/weight-loss/burn-fat-fast/the-fittest-and- fattest-cities-in-america)

<comment><USER12> Well, to be fair it's poverty and cheap processed food that drives higher caloric intake in southern states. You can buy a cheeseburger with 600 calories for $1 or you can buy 50 calories worth of organic foods for the same price. If you are on minimum wage the choice is pretty clear.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Linking to Steve Gibson's amateur page on Vitamin D. Worth a read:

[https://www.grc.com/health/vitamin-d.htm](https://www.grc.com/health/vitamin-d.htm)

 _NOTE_ : Steve Gibson is a security researcher and software developer, _NOT_ a doctor, so take the page with a shaker of salt.

<comment><USER14> I would take Steve Gibson's security advice with a few grains of salt as well

<comment><USER15> I know it's not exactly the place to discuss this in detail, but could you elaborate?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> For what is worth Cluster headaches substantially reduced by 10,000 IU of Vitamin D in 80 percent of people

[https://www.vitamindwiki.com/Cluster+headaches+substantially...](https://www.vitamindwiki.com/Cluster+headaches+substantially+reduced+by+10,000+IU+of+Vitamin+D+in+80+percent+of+people)

I got results right away last time I had a cluster. I am crossing my fingers that this is it.

<comment><USER17> Wow, that's good to know. Hope you won't have to go through that again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Vindication of my long-held opinion that the skin cancer groups, with their very extreme advice befitting milk-white Victorian ladies or photophobic vampires (always cover all skin at all times, avoid going outside whenever possible, wear a thick layer of sunscreen always), were taking things way too far.

</comment><comment><USER19> I am in the deficient range for years even though I walk under the sun a few times per week for about 15 minutes each time, that's still far from enough it seems. I will take supplements now.

<comment><USER20> > even though I walk under the sun a few times per week for about 15 minutes > each time,

This is a very very low amount of exposure to the sun, isn't it (esp depending on your latitude)? I'm asking because it sounds like you're phrasing it as if you think it's a decent amount.

It's honestly only recently that I'm realizing how little sun exposure most people enjoy/are used to. I feel like something's wrong if I don't get sun+fresh air much more frequently than you're describing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I took a vitamin D supplement once, and had the worst migraine of my life hours later. Could have been a coincidence, but I'm in no rush to repeat the experience :-(

</comment><comment><USER22> I started taking vitamin d because I have a family history of colon cancer, and it has been shown to reduce such instances. My doctor said it is one of the few vitamin supplements that has strong clinical evidence to support its use. A happy side effect was that vitamin d also nearly totally made my acne go away. I take on 5000IU in the morning and one at night.

<comment><USER23> Do you regularly test your vitamin D levels?

<comment><USER20> This is sort of my concern. I had extremely low vitamin D, so I started megadosing on the advice of my doctor (50000IU/week). The problem is, without regular tests, I don't really know when I should be stopping. Vitamin D is fat soluble, and at some point, I'll in theory have levels that are too high.

<comment><USER24> True - you should just schedule a blood test. In most US states you can do it yourself without a physician via online lab ordering companies. You will pay out of pocket (or you can use health savings). I usually do this b/c its easier for stuff like this if I am curious about blood levels and procrastinate too much on setting up doctor appts ;)

EDIT: Wanted to mention that a Vit D test is usually around 30-50 bucks, so not too expensive

<comment><USER20> Ah thank you, this is something I would've looked into when I felt it had been long enough but this is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I wonder if those studies that link latitudes with cancer accounted for cold weather? A quick google search revealed that there seems to be a relation there: [https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/269266.php](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/269266.php)

</comment><comment><USER26> I was super deficient being a programmer inside all the time. My levels were literally zero when I went in because I felt like I was dying, bones hurt, extreme fatigue. 10,000 IU 3 times for three weeks fixed it. I've been taking 2000IU every day ever since, and my serum levels still don't go above 20.

</comment><comment><USER27> My opinion, the two most important vitamin levels to check are vitamin D and B12. Many people are easily deficient of both.

Some say 60-80 blood serum level is the optimal (80+ is possibly toxic) while others point to 40-50 as healthy

<comment><USER28> there was a recent post here about B12 supplementation _causing_ cancer.

<comment><USER29> Not so much cause but increases the risk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> If you live in the southern hemisphere continue to stay out of the sun. Take vitamin D tablets if you have to.

<comment><USER31> Thats the advice I give my kids. They don't go outside without sunscreen and hats. But I am beginning to wonder if it isn't an oversimplification. There is no doubt sun exposure is harmful but there is an absolutism that precludes public debate on the benefits and relative risks. I know my skin can't moderate its immune system without some sun damage and oral vitamin D has no equivalent benefit. Not that my experience should be the basis for public health advice, but it is enough to raise some doubts in my mind about the amount of balance in the discussion.

<comment><USER30> yeah, but it's so difficult to get the general population to do anything that may benefit their health and that leads to oversimplifications.

I worry that some people just read a headline and can't cope with details (or don't remember) and end up ignoring the initial good advice.

there's a reason why 99% of australia knows the word melanoma.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Sending encrypted messages to iPhone - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/chew-z/Lacida <comment><USER2> I wonder the use case of this technique?</comment>


Shit Men Say to Women Founders - <AUTHOR> http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/shit-men-say-to-women-founders <comment><USER2> "most white cis straight men in tech seem to think"

Is this an expression that automatically made sense to anyone? I had to look it up, and I think I learned that /cis/ is short for /cisgender/ or /cissexual/ which is something like a word for "never been gay, never even thought about it."

As a "straight white guy" I really had to struggle to read this post and interpret it without picturing the authors as the Womyn protesters from the movie PCU, all grown up and in serious business some years later. I am sure that a lot of women and men struggle to be taken seriously in their work, and having never been asked any of these questions, but simply from working in IT where you often are receiving a lot of questions even from higher-up people that are seemingly inane or obvious, I can sympathize with all of this.

I will defer to your experience since you have obviously started a business, and I have not, but having been just made the target of your message that "all of you people think just the same, and we /just can't wait/ to answer more of your dumb questions we've heard a hundred times before," I honestly don't have much to say to you now at all, or any remaining interest in helping you or hearing about your projects.

So, good job alienating at least 25% of the national population!

</comment><comment><USER3> Male founder here too and I've heard most of these also. I usually like the "totally obvious idea" one. It's rarely dead-on but it commonly gives me a new related idea.

</comment><comment><USER4> Number 1 is a bit thin-skinned, or I have been inadvertantly insulting a lot of people with well-funded, well-staffed "projects."

</comment><comment><USER5> haha glad to see modelviewculture has finally embraced the destiny it was born for - as spammy link bait top 10 list blog with regurgitated content. I guess this was truly the one trick SEO consultants didn't want you to know.

By the way, as a male founder I've heard every single one of these multiple multiple times.

</comment><comment><USER6> None of this is gender-specific at all. Pointless linkbait.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think a few could very definitely be said in a sexist way, more information on the context needed though.

The one I found most interesting was the one about non-profits and charities. I don't consider women to be more likely to start these sorts of companies (I don't know the numbers though), but I can sort of see where that might come from, and I can totally see how that could be insulting to a female founder.

<comment><USER7> The problem is these patriarchal cis-scum aren't actually making shit up to trigger her. The federal government gives contract preference to women-owned businesses, and there are incredibly valuable grants available to encourage _des entrepeneuses_.

Instead of just wigging out in markdown, she might have considered asking them what the hell they were talking about; it could have helped her business. Life is easier in general when you assume conversations are being held in good faith.

Speaking of good faith conversation, your traffic numbers are not a business secret, and your conversation partner does not actually give a shit. This is just the modern version of "so how are sales these days?"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Anyone who takes offense to "Good luck with your project" seems like a thoroughly unpleasant person.

</comment><comment><USER9> im a male cofounder and have been on the receiving end of 80% of this. The project one gets to me every time.

</comment><comment><USER10> I founded a company in 2003 and I heard almost every one of these. Some of them from women.

</comment><comment><USER11> Should be called "Shit that the Uniformed Say to Founders of any Gender"

</comment><comment><USER12> Yet another round of buzzword bingo. I paused at "shit", searched for "white", "straight", "cis", found all three, and quickly closed the tab.

</comment><comment><USER13> TIL that males in business never receive patronising or stupid comments.

</comment><comment><USER14> It's link-baity and disingenuous to generalize around gender here [in this article].

</comment><comment><USER7> This is basically "shit men say to everyone who runs any business." It's also "shit women say to each other" and really just "shit people say."

But I guess a whiney blog post is helping.

</comment><comment><USER15> > most white cis straight men

Stopped reading there.

This is straight out hate speech.

Shit like this has no place on this site.

There has been a concerted effort by SJWs over the past few months to spam more and more of their hate speech on this site, and stricter measures should be taken against them.</comment>


Awesome Syntax Changes in Sass 3 - <AUTHOR> http://nex-3.com/posts/95-awesome-syntax-changes-in-sass-3 <comment><USER2> Summary of New Features in Sass 3:

      * New CSS-Based Syntax called SCSS is available
      * Full CSS3 Support
      * New Color Utilities and Support
      * Variable now start with $
      * No more Scripting context.
      * Dashes in variable names
      * Firebug Integration
      * Watcher for files and directories

</comment><comment><USER3> Really excited about this. It'd be great to see the Sass Textmate Bundle updated for the new syntax.

<http://github.com/seaofclouds/sass-textmate-bundle>

<comment><USER3> Oops, linked to an older TexMate Sass bundle. The more up-to-date one (linked to from the Sass editors page) is at

<http://github.com/charlesr/ruby-sass-tmbundle>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This answers a lot of my irritations with Sass! Now there are only two problems I have, and I really don't have a good solution for either of them: some of my files are heavy on the indentation making it really difficult to see where I really am when adding new stuff, and I really do miss writing more of my CSS on one line.

<comment><USER5> It seems you can solve both by switching to the new Sassy CSS syntax: [http://beta.sass- lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SCSS_FOR_SASS_USE...](http://beta.sass- lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SCSS_FOR_SASS_USERS.html)

Use sass-convert to convert your existing sass files to scss: [http://beta.sass- lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SASS_CHANGELOG.ht...](http://beta.sass- lang.com/docs/yardoc/file.SASS_CHANGELOG.html#scss_sassy_css)</comment></comment>


Obama declines to fire U.S. attorneys over Aaron Swartz's suicide - <AUTHOR> http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2015/01/08/in-a-long-delayed-petition-response-obama-refuses-to-fire-u-s-attorneys-over-aaron-swartz/

<comment><USER2> He will not, and no president will.

The only way to get back at that attorney is to wait until he decides to run for public office, which they tend to do - being tough on crime is their ticket to public office.

When and if he decides to run for office, friends of Aaron may then decided to wage a campaign against him, to ensure that he loses.

It's a dirty game, but guys like that deserve that kind of treatment.</comment>


Microsoft open sources SQL Server JDBC driver, now on GitHub - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Microsoft/mssql-jdbc <comment><USER2> With all of this openness from Microsoft I'm sitting here thinking: "What'll they open source next?"</comment>


CBS forced CNET staff to recast vote after Hopper won 'Best in Show' at CES - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/14/3874682/exclusive-cbs-forced-cnet-editors-to-recast-vote-after-hopper-win <comment><USER2> @SandoCNET: <https://twitter.com/sandoCNET>

"Hello all. Sad to report that I've resigned from CNET. I no longer have confidence that CBS is committed to editorial independence."

"CNET wasn't honest about what occurred regarding Dish is unacceptable to me. We are supposed to be truth tellers."

"Please know no one in News or Reviews editorial did anything wrong. I believe CNET's leaders are also honest but used poor judgement."

"I am not disgruntled. CBS and CNET were great to me. I just want to be known as an honest reporter. Thanks everyone for reading me."

</comment><comment><USER3> This is really much much uglier than reported earlier, and that was pretty ugly. CBS has rather gutted CNET here - their product reviews where the best part of the site, and that is absolutely not to be trusted any more.

</comment><comment><USER4> Given this, why should I believe CBS News editorial is any different?

</comment><comment><USER5> CBS turned into a tool years ago. They have increasingly trended towards some sort of "Fox-lite".

Thus, I'm not surprised to find business concerns taking on the blatant editorial role described in this instance.</comment>


Ask HN: How to get free adwords coupon? - <AUTHOR>

I hear people mention using free adwords coupons, but I can't figure out where people get ones? Any tips? <comment><USER2> There was a time where Google was sending them out by mail (they may still be doing this). I've also heard of people signing up and when Google gives them a call (Google usually gives you a phone call to see how everything is going with your new account) they strike a deal with the agent over the phone.

</comment><comment><USER3> I get sent Adwords coupons from Bluehost 1-2 times a year. They also come stuck inside FastCompany and Inc Magazine quite a bit.

</comment><comment><USER4> Magazines like .Net had them every month while I read it.

</comment><comment><USER5> in startup deal sites like rewardli.

</comment><comment><USER6> I have used a couple of hosting services, Blue Host and (I think) Monster Host, which offered deals of this sort, as well as other deals. I also have an adsense account and periodically get offers in the mail.

<comment><USER2> Yes! forgot about that one. Hosting services practically hand them out.</comment></comment>


Cross Compiling Rust for FreeBSD with Docker - <AUTHOR> https://www.wezm.net/technical/2019/03/cross-compile-freebsd-rust-binary-with-docker/ <comment><USER2> After I wrote this I discovered that cross[1] supports FreeBSD so it's probably the better option.

[1]: [https://github.com/rust-embedded/cross](https://github.com/rust- embedded/cross)</comment>


Persistent Identifiers: Considering the Options - <AUTHOR> http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue56/tonkin/

<comment><USER2> Cool URI's don't change.

Slightly less cool URI's leave 301 redirects behind when they move.

At the web scale you can't expect every org publishing resources to keep them up indefinitely, you need to be able to deal with breakage.

<comment><AUTHOR> There are several different issues here. One is persistent _access_ , which is what you seem to be referring to. Some others are _metadata_ , along with persistent _naming_ and _location_.

It's important to be able to name something uniquely and get some metadata about it, even if that thing can't be located and/or accessed. Some of the schemes discussed in the article are designed to address these issues.

<comment><USER2> Yes. And there are reasons for decoupling certain classes of identifiers from the DNS. But, for many of the entities we deal with on a daily basis that is a useless bit of metacrap.

Dealing with metadata takes effort, for things that exist outside of the web that effort is worthwhile. For things that exist purely on the web, the URI is all the unique ID that is required, and if you need to move it to a different location in the namespace you can do so.

A web page or blog post is uniquely identified at a point in time by being retrievable from a URL. If at some later date that URL becomes nonfunctional or changes meaning that resource no longer exists. You can still refer to it by it's URI even though it is not retrievable using the URI as a URL.

I agree with you, it's just that unnecessary indirection offends my aesthetic sensibilities.</comment></comment></comment>


5 ImageMagick command line examples - <AUTHOR> http://www.ioncannon.net/linux/81/5-imagemagick-command-line-examples-part-1/ <comment><USER2> It's funny that I can never remember exactly which options to use when I use ImageMagick (or GraphicsMagick), but in about 5 seconds, I can Alt-tab to the browser window that's open, google search for the switches I need, then alt- tab back the CL, and finally run my command. All in less time than it takes for Gimp to open.</comment>


The Ex-Green Beret Behind Ghosn's Escape - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-ghosns-escape-an-ex-green-beret-with-a-beef-about-his-own-time-in-jail-11579323661 <comment><AUTHOR> [http://archive.is/uzGk8](http://archive.is/uzGk8)</comment>


Ask HN: Experienced JavaScript programmers, what are your recommendations? - <AUTHOR> Recommendations (not exclusive) can fall into:

  - <USER2>
  - <USER3>
  - <USER4>
  - <USER5>
  - <USER6>
  - Posts
 <comment><USER9> Just don't do it. I totally regret I went for Javascript.

I started with systems programming with C++ etc.. At some point some 5 years ago I made the unfortunate decision to go for Javascript. After 5 years I can now confidently say that programming in Javascript is not about what you are creating, it is about what ESxxx version you use, what framework you use, whether you're using Promises or whatever idea people come up with tomorrow, and all this in an ever accellerating and continuing hype. I am sick of it already. Almost everything I learn is already, or will be soon, deprecated.

I would recommend people to go for C++/Qt or any language/framework where what you learn will not be wasted soon so you can use your valuable time to create things rather than learn the next framework or language idea all the time.

<comment> git-pull C++/QT may be great, but a lot of the JS question boils down to website creation, rather than app creation.

I dumped node.js on the server site like a hot potato. At the time (2014), it didn't scale well and was quite porous dealing with stuff you'd get free in a framework like django (like db-backed form validation).

But, I can't say I regret learning JS. You won't be able to do the job developing websites if you can't wrangle it. It's so ubiquitous, despite my efforts to keep a node-free codebase, I still had to cave in. Even if it's just getting your foot in the door using SCSS. Or wiring in that jQuery plugin.

Whether it's situational awareness or dealing with webpack configurations, getting that last 10% cinched is going to require understanding what's going on.

What I think people need to know about JS is that they shouldn't just drink the Kool Aid because everyone else _seems to_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This post is entirely going to be based on questions that I would expect an experienced developer that I was interviewing to be able to have a conversation on. This is not a starting point for a beginner.

Understand the language and how it works on a deep level. If there's ever a question of "should this work?", read the spec for that feature - it's generally not that hard to understand.

Understand the runtime. What is an event loop? What's a macro task? A micro task? How does each work? How does all of this integrate with the DOM as far as what might cause a dropped frame, block rendering, etc..?

Understand the ideas behind the framework you're using. I'm not going to recommend an individual one to avoid framework wars, but most of them embrace virtual dom these days, so you should have a basic concept of what that is. Does it make applications faster? Does it make it developing easier?. Another common framework point is unidirectional data flow; why is unidirectional data flow considered a good thing these days? What were the downfalls of bidirectional data flow?

Understand API design and state boundaries. Using the example of a shopping cart, who owns what? Where is the state of the cart stored? An individual item price? Name? How do I add an item to the cart? You can design a cart that functions fantastically, but is completely un-testable if the API is designed wrong or there is not well defined boundaries on what components own what state.

That's a few things off the top of my head.

</comment><comment><USER11> I highly recommend to deeply understand JavaScript itself first. I personally recommend books from Dr. Axel Rauschmayer -- [http://exploringjs.com](http://exploringjs.com) After reading it you will have a strong foundation in prototypes, clojures, high-order functions, and other fundamental concepts.

Also, I can recommend spending some time playing with native DOM interface -- so you will understand what is event loop, how listeners are attached/detached, what is event delegation, how to traverse DOM (and what does it cost), and all that jazz.

Nowadays parts of functional programming are on the rise, so you might want to familiarize yourself with it a little bit -- [https://github.com/MostlyAdequate/mostly-adequate- guide](https://github.com/MostlyAdequate/mostly-adequate-guide) this is a good book, and fist 5-7 chapters are good enough to change your look at the programming.

This is a foundation, and without it it will be hard to write decent code in a fast and reliable manner. After that you can pick any library (whatever is needed for the jobs around you) or any framework, and try to solve your problem in it. There is not that much a benefit from just learning libraries, frameworks and tools per se, so I recommend to move gradually, and you will understand during your path what do you need better.

</comment><comment><USER12> Recommendations...for what purpose? Please be more specific. Where are you now? What do you want to achieve? Do you want to build something from scratch or just polish your skills? Etc.

For example, I can tell you that Phaser is a very good library for game development (or similiarly, others that X is for Y), but that is pretty much useless if you are completely disinterested in that given area.

<comment><AUTHOR> Looking for recommendations across the board. It doesn't have to be specific. Knowing that Phaser is a very good library for game development is in itself good information.

I might or might not be interested in game development now, but I am interested in seeing recommendations of good resources from experienced programmers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> My biggest recommendation is: form your own opinions and make your own informed decisions around tooling/frameworks/libraries and so on. Front-end development is very opinionated, there are a lot of egos flying around and everyone like a used car salesman wants to sell you something and tell you how great it is.

Don't let anyone tell you Javascript is a mistake learning, because while it has its flaws so do many other languages. Learn the bad parts and then avoid them like you would any other language.

My front-end stack at the moment is:

\- Webpack

\- Aurelia Javascript framework

\- VueJS

\- Sass + Autoprefixer

As for posts, books and whatnot: those are constantly changing and being outdated, so I have no recommendations.

<comment><USER14> why vue _and_ aurelia, any special reason? honest question

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I am a big fan of cheddar cheese. Although peperjack is often better, cheddar is solid an contributes to more meals.

</comment><comment><USER16> Echoing the user 5zBFyURxgY, I would say "don't".

The problem is not the language or even the ecosystem, but the jobs. Most JS gigs are not interesting and not technically challenging. For all the noise the community makes about us being 'engineers', the overwhelming bulk of JS jobs today are just the CSS/HTML tweaking roles of five years ago implemented in 2017 technology.

Occasionally you will get to write some Node server code. These apps will usually be thin proxies over 'real' API web services and the tickets will generally be about marshalling data, waiting for asynchronous responses and handling authentication.

I have been lucky enough to do better: first an adtech R&D role (mixed bag - <USER7> hate adtech as an industry, and I loathed our rapacious attitude to people's personal data, but I had lots of autonomy and got to manage my own feasibility studies); the second was a soujourn into web VR (not as technically deep as it sounds - you might get to write a shader or two; that's it).

JavaScript development is good if you want to make decent money doing something easy, and never worry about unemployment. It is not good if you want anything else. It is not a promising field if you want programmatic challenges; if you want to build in a niche of domain-specific knowledge; if you don't like relearning basic tools because the basics keep being reinvented; if you want to be respected as more than a pixel wrangler (you get a LOT of direct requests from senior managers to swap things around etc.); or if you want to keep your options open.

That last point is important. It is quite hard to move out of front end development. The field still has a poor repuation, and because the work is generally basic employers tend to be a little sceptical of your skills. Not insuperable but definitely a strike against JS as a specialism.

I really regret not getting out of JS when I could.

</comment><comment><USER17> Not a very experienced js programmer myself, but I have heard this again and again from professionals : master ES6 first. Choose React, Vue or Angular next. Use solutions like Redux next for managing complex scenarios. Keep learning always but don't get overwhelmed by sheer amount of options available to JS developers nowadays... You don't need to learn most of those if your fundamentals are clear.

</comment><comment> VvR-Ox You should definetly take a looke at vue - it's awesome!

</comment><comment><USER18> Reactjs with create-react-app

Once you've built a couple of reasonably sized applications, then learn Redux.

<comment><USER19> create-react-app (with redux) is what really made me leve up in JavaScript. It forces you to think in a modern way, about JS. And it's really Easy to get started.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> It could be a bit far fetched..

But I recommend skipping all frameworks and do a lot with native JS and learn the prototype chain.. this will make you understand a lot more about how JavaScript works and also how JS is attached to the DOM.

Frameworks change so often in JS world!

<comment><USER21> Not that I'm particularly experienced in JS, but I'd add to this that starting out with frameworks like Mithril that have small APIs and let you right the majority of your code and logic in vanilla JS is also very beneficial when starting out.

<comment><USER20> True

Depending if one is good with other languages and some patterns like MVC, I really like to give someone that has 'figured out' the DOM and jquery etc pa.k. frontend in general, a push to Backbone as a JS learning framework. It's very clean and has a relative hard line between data -> View compared to Angular 4 etc. Also I think Backbone is so simple, It makes learning build flows with Gulp, Webpack etc easier. Thats not something to forget in modern JS world..

If all coding is new to a person, use Jquery only to show 'how simple it can be' and than make very clear most code written in Jquery should be considered a 'quick cheat' and does not hold any true JS revelation. Just to let them keep there eyes open and keep setting targets for themself like faster,scalable etc coding skills in Vanilla JS

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> My advice is to go to meetup groups, conferences, and workshops where you can interact with others face-to-face. I just got back from React Rally in Salt Lake City, and I often attend Sacramento and SF Bay Area JS meetup groups. Find a group in your area, and you'll quickly pick up on current trends and recommendations.

</comment><comment><USER23> Not that experienced but your interest entirely depends on the product you develop. Rather than focusing on the tech to use for the product, focus on the product. Depending on one js framework in this ever changing environment is really tedious later on .

</comment><comment><USER24> Hey there,

I'll start with the disclaimer, as lately HN comments have tendency of becoming toxic - everything I write is my personal opinion.

With that behind us I can start. I'll try to write this for someone who knows very little about JS, but knows her/his way around basic programming/cs.

Firstly I love JavaScript, I have been writing it for 10 years now, but there are bad parts of it as well.

Let's start with good stuff

* It is evolving in the right direction

* You can do a lot of things with it (web apps, games, mobile apps, server...)

* Materials for learning are everywhere

* It will be easy to find a job

Bad stuff

* It is moving at crazy to follow pace

* There are a lot of different ways of doing same things

* As it is very hip thing to do, there is a lot of bu___hit (beware of the hype train)

Learn plain javascript before moving to frameworks. Focus on ES6 and new stuff as it will make your life way easier.

* Someone already mentioned Dr. Axel Rauschmayer, pick any of his books - [http://exploringjs.com/](http://exploringjs.com/)

* Another good one is You Dont Know JS - [https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS](https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS)

Try to make small app on your own. You'll get into all sort of problems, but that's the fun part I guess. That will help you to understand what frameworks are trying to solve.

Then you can start learning one of the frameworks. React, Vue, Angular are all solid choices. My pick is React, as I know it best. Apply the same mindset as with learning plain JS. Try to write your own stuff on a small scale before importing huge libraries.

Good example is redux, everybody on the internet are screaming that you should always use it, but even Dan Abramov (author of redux) has great read - <USER8> might not need redux [https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/you-might-not-need- redux-be4...](https://medium.com/@dan_abramov/you-might-not-need-redux- be46360cf367)

Try handling state yourself, then if you see that you need big guns, try redux. Same goes for any big library or technology.

So, buckle up, do it thoroughly and try to find fun in doing javascript. And the most important generic advice - do a real pet project instead of just blindly following tutorials.

This will take some time, and if you just want enough knowledge to lend a job, pick a framework, throw yourself into the deep end and swim your way out. This is something I wouldn't recommend but it works for some people.

Hope this helps, cheers! S

P.S.

Random JS talks I like

* Wat - Gary Bernhardt, 2012 [https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat](https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat) It never fails to crack me up

* Live React: Hot Reloading with Time Travel - Dan Abramov, 2015 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSnOQynTHs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsSnOQynTHs) Classic nowadays, it is a delight to watch Dan Abramov presenting, only thing missing is a mic drop at the end

* What the heck is the event loop anyway? - Philip Roberts, 2014 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGhZQkoFbQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aGhZQkoFbQ) This is a must watch for every js developer

EDIT: Sorry for the formatting, HN doesn't support markdown

</comment><comment><USER25> quasar framework. Based on vue2 hybrid beautiful full featured framework

</comment><comment><USER26> I recommend Glimmer and Ember.js

</comment><comment> git-pull Books (free):

\- _Javascript Patterns_ [https://shichuan.github.io/javascript- patterns/](https://shichuan.github.io/javascript-patterns/): Good for wrapping your brain around scoping and how things flow in JS. It's a very nimble language. While you won't use every single one, internalizing their concepts are central to be efficient in wrangling JS and reading other's.

\- _Patterns For Large-Scale JavaScript Application Architecture_ [https://addyosmani.com/largescalejavascript/](https://addyosmani.com/largescalejavascript/)

Docs / Articles:

\- Callback functions: [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Glossary/Callback_f...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Glossary/Callback_function) Absolutely mandatory.

\- Currying: [https://www.sitepoint.com/currying-in-functional- javascript/](https://www.sitepoint.com/currying-in-functional-javascript/)

\- 'return this' for method chaining: [https://schier.co/blog/2013/11/14/method-chaining-in- javascr...](https://schier.co/blog/2013/11/14/method-chaining-in- javascript.html)

Annotated Source:

(soak these in 10-20 minutes every day over a month or two)

\- [http://backbonejs.org/docs/backbone.html](http://backbonejs.org/docs/backbone.html)

\- [http://underscorejs.org/docs/underscore.html](http://underscorejs.org/docs/underscore.html)

Frameworks:

\- None. Webpack 3 + jQuery + babel + pjax

Tips:

\- The longer you hold off on a framework, the better. Focus on getting your stuff out the door, test coverage + CI feedback loop, core business data schemas, and trimming off technical debt. After a couple of iterations and months of stability, consider a/b testing a framework.

\- Most libraries are still in ES5. Wrap your brain around ES5 is a sure thing. Not everyone is using newer JS features.

\- In many programming languages in your webstack, you're likely going to be dealing with node for build utilities and compilation.

\- Webpack, while it seems unintuitive at first, can be pretty nice once you get over the hump. It's like a miss of the old r.js configs and the declartive-ness of grunt.

\- As a parting note, don't feel a necessity to buy into single page application and frameworks. They're a tremendous time sink and the ROI just isn't there.

</comment><comment><USER27> elm-lang.org</comment>