Reasons to Stop Ignoring the Skills Gap - <AUTHOR> http://mikerowe.com/2016/02/stopignoringskillsgap/ <comment><USER3> If I were a young man, and I was not in the top quartile, or really, top decile, of my high school class, I would be looking real hard at getting into a good trade, rather than going to college. There's nice money in being an electrician, a plumber, a welder, a mechanic. It's relatively low stress, and you leave your work behind when you punch out. Much better than putting yourself massively into debt to try to get a degree of increasing uselessness, particularly if you don't have the grades or the brains to get into and be able to hack a good school and a tough program. I've known too many people that really weren't ready or equipped to go to college, but got pushed along by guidance counselors and the "Everybody goes to college" rhetoric, and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt and dropping out after a semester or two.

The other traditional option for those that aren't really cut out for higher education is the military, but they are starting to tighten up again, as I understand from my friends that are still in.

<comment><USER4> To dumb to go to uni is horrible assumption to make of anyone.

You should be free to follow your passion/whims and study whatever they want, love it, hate it, fuck it up, drop out, and try something else. Even more so when you are young inexperienced and finding your way in the world.

> and the only result was them racking up tens of thousands in debt

That's the problem America needs to solve.

<comment><USER5> I don't agree that the taxpayer should pick up the tab for some 18-year-old to have fun for four years. Do whatever you want, but don't expect others to pay for you.

<comment><USER6> I would disagree here. If you look at this solely from the perspective of someone screwing around in the public dollar sure, it's easy to say screw that. If however you instead look at it like: "This person tried this, really didn't like it, is not good at it, and probably shouldn't do it", why should we then force them into a field they can't generate value in -or- damn them to a lifetime of wage slavery to pay for the schooling they can't use?

In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it?

<comment><USER7> >In my mind, college exists to prepare a pupil for a given field and if said pupil for any number of reasons cannot do that upon exiting that institution, why should they pay for it?

Because that was the agreement they made with the institution.

Either way someone is paying for it, it can be the person who got the (partial) education, or it can be someone\s that happens to live in the same state as the person who got the education.

Even if it doesn't make sense to you that people who fail their studies should pay their debts to their schools, it makes even less sense that you would transfer that debt from the pupil to someone who was neither partner to the decision to undertake studies nor a beneficiary of pupil's studies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > But no one seems to want them, and the reasons have nothing to do with low > pay, poor benefits, or a lack of available training.

This is laughable. The average plumber makes around $50,000 and will top out around $80,000[0]. And those wadges have flat lined over the last 15 years[1]. Not to mention, it's painful work climbing under cabinets, kneeling down and standing up with heavy work belts, and contorting your body into every little nook and cranny. It takes its toll on your body over a period of time, as does the vast majority of manual labor jobs that are out there. So why would the son or daughter of a plumber go into the work when (s)he sees her dad complain about how the industry has gone to hell? I guess this is confusing to Mike Rowe.

Let's imagine for a minute that an entry level plumber could make $250,000 a year after a year long apprenticeship that paid him/her $60,000. There would be zero problems filling these position with top notched candidates. Zero. So to say pay and benefits are not the problem, misdiagnoses skills gap.

[0] [http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes472152.htm) [1] [http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers- Pipe...](http://city-salaries.careertrends.com/l/116610/Plumbers-Pipefitters- and-Steamfitters-in-Providence-Fall-River-Warwick-Rhode-Island)

<comment><USER9> I feel like many HN readers may have a non-normal view of reasonable wages - given that boot camp graduates can get absurd money relative to their knowledge/experience/contribution level.

Those figures you quote (50-80k) are starting right at the median income (around 52[0]). Assuming they're decent with money and limit their debt, that's a pretty decent living for moderate stress (granted health tolls are a valid concern, but for all the bending/lifting they're probably not suffering some of those health issues associated with high stress and crazy hours - it's all a trade off). It's also only including salary income, do they get defined benefit retirement plans? 401k? I was a financial advisor at one point and worked for a lot of these skilled jobs - most of them had pension plans that were funded (e.g. Guaranteed income for life, a non-included figure in "income" typically)

That median is also taking into account all workers, so that's people early in there career just as it is those late. If starting is actually around 50, it's not a terrible deal.

Over time though the issue should be solved as a shortage tends to drive up prices and demand follows suit. Of course throwing money at people to take a job may help in the short term, but that's not really a maintainable way to handle these issues. That money comes from somewhere, so either prices need to increase or costs need to decrease (at the risk of it going to a consumer fewer may be able to afford other things, thereby possibly costing other markets - whether or not that is good is likely contingent on the market).

[edit]: It's also worth considering that, while they may be paid low during their training, they aren't paying for it. Alternative careers may demand paid for training (boot camp, college, masters, whatever). There's not only some opportunity cost but also debt likely in this consideration.

[0] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_Unit...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States)

<comment><USER10> _> Those figures you quote (50-80k) are starting right at the median income (around 52[0])_

Just to emphasize, as I think it might be easy for other readers to overlook: That figure is median _household_ income, which can include multiple earners. Individually, the median income is closer to $30K ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States)).

<comment><USER9> Good call, that definitely seemed like a high figure relative to what I recalled. That actually looks even better for an individual laborer! 50k looks much better

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> As a business owner, I can tell you that were will never be a day when business owners won't tell you there is shortage of qualified people at the price they want to pay. At a minimum this is due to losing touch with the increasing cost of living and at it's extreme it's just pure greed. I remember the same articles even during the last two recessions.

</comment><comment><USER12> I don't know about the US, but here in the UK, if you are in say, your 40s/50s and out of work, good luck trying to get yourself a trade - <USER2> are still the province of the young and the government won't help retrain you either. This to me is as big a problem with respect to vocational training as encouraging all school leavers to go to university to get a degree. As people live longer we can't continue to ignore those who would retrain into a trade.

<comment><USER13> Wouldn't it be assumed that someone in their 30/40s would have savings to retrain?

When I went to uni, there were a few mature students.

<comment><USER14> Lets say I've been making 50k a year since I was 20. I put 5k a year into a retirement account (IRA/401k/$country's equivalent) and another 5k into just a regular saving account to keep it liquid for a rainy day. After taxes and what not that means I'm probably living on 20k a year.

I lose my job at 35. I now have 75k in liquid savings. I spend the first 6 months looking for a job, now I'm down to 65k, I decide to retrain. That's 10-20K and 12-24 months if I go to Community College. So I'm dead broke by the end. If I have to buy a car, or break an ankle I'll never make it.

So I get a part time job in retail making 10-12k a year before taxes just to help defray the cost and to keep the unemployment gap on my resume smaller. Great I make it through. Except now I'm 37 looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in. So I keep my retail job and try to squeeze enough hours out of it keep everything together, or I get a second job. Now I'm a constantly stressed and exhausted 37 year old paranoid about taking a day off to interview because _what if they cut my hours in retaliation for missing a shift_ who is looking for a job in a field that I have no previous work experience in.

<comment><USER14> Just to add: there's some assumptions here like: I live in a place with a community college.

This "works" if I'm in Albuquerque when I lose my job. If I live in Carrizozo or Tucumcari? I'm kinda fucked.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > Democrats blamed corporate greed. "Just offer workers more money," they > said, "and the skills gap will close itself."

No seriously. Offer more fucking money.

<comment><USER16> Why? They've already decided how badly they want to attract talent and set their salary budgets accordingly. You're asking them to pay more than is good for their businesses?

<comment><USER17> If I set my phone budget at a dollar, I don't write articles in newspapers complaining that I can't buy an iPhone.

<comment><USER16> If you can justify setting your phone budget at a dollar, then your life is structured in such a way that any phone would deliver at most one dollar's worth of value to you and, in this respect, you are highly unusual.

If, on the other hand, there are 100,000 companies who all think that adding a _insert-your-favorite-kind-of-specialist-here_ will enable their company to generate $X additional revenue per year, where X is an above-average income that many people would love to earn, but they can't find anyone to do the job for $X, it makes sense to broadcast throughout society the message that this kind of special skill may be worth obtaining.

<comment><USER18> If your specialist is generating $X additional revenue per year then the company will be paying him more like $X/3.

Many specialists will realise that working for one's self or in partnership with a small group of other specialists is far more lucrative.

So there's no contradiction here. The employers are right to say that if they could employ more specialists on the cheap then they would win more business and make more money. And the specialists are right to say that they make more money with a different working arrangement.

None of this implies that there is actually a real shortage.

<comment><USER16> Is there such a thing as a _real shortage_ , except in the context of an objective that can't be satisfied due to that shortage?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Or in other words, the US (and likely a lot of other places) need more plumbers and electricians, but fewer people seem to want to apply for these types of jobs because they're not seen as 'trendy'.

Which isn't surprising, given how white collar work in a startup or internet focused company seems to have almost become a default assumption in the last few years or so.

<comment><USER20> Goes hand in hand with the oversubscribed university system.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, but not all subjects are the same. If we had too many engineers.. Well, that wouldn't be a problem, if it's even possible...

<comment><USER16> It would be a problem for many of those engineers, if they were unable to find, on their own, commercially viable applications for their skills.

<comment><USER21> I agree. It is possible to have too many engineers. People are complaining that there are too many lawyers, for instance. There is no reason it can't happen to us.

<comment><USER13> I'm not sure, and engineering degree is very flexible.

A friend of mine got a job straight out of university, and in the following years did biological, civil and automotive engineering.

Lawyering, in contrast, I believe is fairly specialised - in that it's not as easy to move around between different areas of law? Aslo, people will always complain there are too many lawyers, the economics of law aren't properly market-lead..

<comment><USER22> Flexible? In these days where unemployment rules, companies will reject your application if you have not 5 years of experience with the _exact_ complete toolchain they use. Doesn't matter if you have been working 15 years in the same industry and 10 years on the same kind of job, and that you could adapt easily and quickly to other toolchains, jobs or industries, they don't care, they can find someone that doesn't even need to adapt. So the more years pass, the more you get stuck in the exact same thing, despite your theoretical flexibility.

<comment><USER13> Hmm, I'm not sure. My friend worked in UK.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> O.k. I've heard enough of this skills gap from Mike Rowe.

I haven't figured out if he's "thick" pretty boy who honestly doesn't understand why a company in the middle of nowhere is having a hard time finding a non-union pipe welder, who's willing to even pay union wages, for a two month job; or Mike is just trying to promote himself as some Skilled Workers Guru so he won't have to work for non-union wages when this money making gig dies out?

1\. If you pay a decent salary you will have a line around your union hall with applicants. For example, try to get into local 6 in San Francisco. It's the electric union for the city/county. I believe those guys are getting over $100 hr. including benefits. Most of you will just not get in.

2\. Try to be become a union Plumber in New York. There were guys camping out in line just to put their name on the list to take the union test a few weeks ago.

3\. I have two extreme examples, but every union that treats its members right; there's no shortage of eager apprentices.

O.k. how about the rest of the trades? Where are the workers? Let's look at Mr. Sparky, and Benjamin Franklin brought up as expamples in this piece. Both mainly hire non-union help. Mr. Sparky pays $14.00 hr, and I believe they expect state licensed electricians to apply? They offer lousy working conditions. No wonder they can't get qualified workers? They do charge customers union prices though. Someone has to make a good living?

We don't have a shortage of qualified individuals. We have employers/companies that don't pay much more than retail.

(I won't be back to argue. I a licenced general contractor, union electrician, and went to automotive school. What I see is a lot of overqualified guys, but are being exploited. I see a lot of foreigners doing these jobs at very low wages.

In many cases, they do a good job with the right supervision.

So, I'm a hypothetical shop owner. I hire a guy who knows what's he/she is doing, and pay that person just o.k.; and they delegate to a bunch of low wage foreigners. This is how you get rich as an owner in the trades. And you don't hire union if you can avoid it. And you don't hire union help. The point is not hiring union. Did you get it? See your company seems to make more profit without unions? And you have guys like Mike scratching their heads over the lack of eager beavers lining up to fill these jobs.)

<comment><USER24> > Try to be become a union Plumber in New York. There were guys camping out in > line just to put their name on the list to take the union test a few weeks > ago.

That sounds more like a cartel than a union.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I am from Brazil, so maybe this doesn't apply to the US...

But I am seeing a major problem with pay.

For example, I never got a legal job (as in, registered employee of a company following Brazil's laws correctly) since graduating in 2009, this is expected during the heavy economy depression periods, but during the "boom" of 7% of GDP growth, I actually was invited to some interviews, and had to refuse to even attempt them, despite being "good jobs"

The reason, is that many of the jobs that were offered, the pay was lower than my student loan repayments, I just couldn't accept those jobs. Back then, I went with higher paying stuff, that weren't exactly legal job. (for example being an de-facto employee, but getting paid as if I was freelancer, in Brazil this is illegal).

Then, when the economy tanked again recently, I decided to outright not work in many situations, because most of the work available were in places with cost of living so high, that I would literally lose money, I would have to pay to work (for example: not working at my parents house, would make my debt increase by "x" every month, while working in São Paulo, would make my debt increase by "3x" every month, despite now having a source of income).

For example I see lots of people claiming that the population is lazy, because they don't want to be cashiers or street sweepers... Since I desperately need money, I would accept those jobs, if they actually gave profit! Right now the pay is so low, that my costs regarding transportation, food (instead of eating the stuff I grow on my yard and cook myself) and health (for example sitting the entire day as cashier is very unhealthy overall) would be higher than the tiny salary that those jobs pay.

And then there is the "time loss", when even when the job is actually profitable, the time you lose doing it is too much compared to the benefits, for example currently most young people don't start families, here in Brazil birth rates are already below replacement rate, specially if you ignore immigrants (then birth rate is close to the one of a developed country), so usually people need money only to themselves, not their family, so suppose a guy can do some oddjobs and save 500 USD per month, and use most of his time having fun, training, taking care of his mental and physical health, and so on... or he can work 60 hours/week, and after all his costs, save 1000 USD per month... would those extra 500 USD be worth 60 hours/week when he doesn't have mouths to feed? I think that probably not.

</comment><comment><USER26> I really wish trade schools weren't dying in America. They're ab affordable way for real people to earn a good living without as huge an investment.

I wish more fields were taught in trade schools rather then colleges. Ex: software engineering, writing, art, some other engineerings.

Things that are t centered around academia, in my opinion, should be considered trades. If they where we'd all be saving a lot of time and money.

<comment><USER27> I agree with you. I went to college and graduated with a degree, but didn't really have enough real world experience to know what I wanted to do as a career. Skip ahead five years and I finally found a similar equivalent to a software engineering trade school, Holberton School[1] in SF. I didn't have the money to go back to school and didn't want to take out loans, and this school was my saving grace. I do wish things like this existed for other vocations as well though.

[1] [https://www.holbertonschool.com](https://www.holbertonschool.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> The only argument that Rowe makes for the _desirability_ of skilled-trade jobs, at least in this piece, is the job security they offer:

>> As long as Americans remain addicted to affordable electricity, smooth roads, indoor plumbing and climate control, the opportunities in the skilled trades will never go away. They'll never be outsourced.

Of course "a whole category of good jobs have been relegated to some sort of 'vocational consolation prize'" \- they're _good_ jobs, not the _best_ jobs. They don't pay the best, they don't offer the best working conditions, and they don't signal the highest levels of social prestige. That's simply a function of the other possible career choices that exist.

Ambitious people aspire to the _best_. Parents want their kids to have the _best_. The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner- take-all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like anything but the best is a failure.

<comment><USER29> > The biggest problem I see is that society and the increasingly winner-take- > all economy make it easy (and often economically rational) to feel like > anything but the best is a failure.

Even if the economy isn't "winner take all", mating generally is. And that's a completely different issue.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> The hostname in the URL, i.e. mikerowe.com, led me to wonder if it is the same guy as mikerowesoft.com [0]. Apparently, not.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_vs._MikeRoweSoft)

<comment><USER31> No, this Mike Rowe is an actor turned blue collar hero as host of Dirty Jobs.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> How can somebody who's clearly interested in building trades be so unaware of the dynamics of the industry and training, and the effect that the recession had on it...past a headline unemployment figure.

</comment><comment><USER33> Nice try, but the average pay for a tradesman is $15 - $45 per hour on the upper range. People cannot live decently with $45 per hour, let alone with $15 per hour, which is why many now juggle two or even three jobs, just trying to survive. Hence the term _working poor_.

<comment><USER5> > People cannot live decently with $45 per hour

That's $90k a year, putting you in the top ~0.1% of the world's population by income.

<comment><USER33> 0.1% doesn't help you much when you have to contend with Swiss-like prices on an American salary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Here's the perfect article for IT folks being burned out and looking for a career change.</comment>


Why Philosophers Should Care About Computational Complexity - <AUTHOR> http://eccc.hpi-web.de/report/2011/108/

<comment><USER2> There are also lots of great comments on the sibling submission from a few weeks ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2861825>

</comment><comment><USER3> "Philosophers" do care about computational complexity. System's Theory weaves through both fields in the context of "irreducible" complexity.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Developments_in_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory#Developments_in_system_theories)

In that case the inverse is also true. Computer Scientists should care about what it means for something to be irreducible or computationally complex.

</comment><comment><USER4> >As of 2011, the "largest known prime number," as reported by GIMPS (the Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search),15 is p := 243112609 − 1. But on reflection, what do we mean by saying that p is "known"?

what a rubbish. The "p" isn't "known". The "p" is "known to be prime". Professional philosopher must be able to feel the difference.

<comment><USER5> Not at all. This is ultimately an epistemic issue - what do we mean by "known"? What property does the largest known prime have that the next largest prime lacks? How can we articulate the difference? These are the types of questions philosophy asks.

<comment><USER4> >This is ultimately an epistemic issue - what do we mean by "known"? What property does the largest known prime have that the next largest prime lacks?

"known" is by "whom". Being "known" isn't an intrinsic property that one prime has and another lacks. "Knowing" some specific number as a prime is a property of the one who "knows". If some person (or alien race) knows p as the largest known [to them] prime and another person knows q as the largest known [to him] prime it has absolutely no bearing on the intrinsic properties of either p or q.

>These are the types of questions philosophy asks.

if it really so nowadays, then it would explain why there is no philosophers anymore

<comment><USER6> _p_ is "known" by the mathematical community. As of 2011, _p_ is the largest natural number such that (a) we know _p_ is prime and (b) we know a polynomial-time algorithm to enumerate the digits in the decimal expansion of _p_.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Previous discussion (2 weeks ago):

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2861825>

</comment><comment><USER8> Highly recommend Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglas Hofstadter for those who are interested by this: <http://amzn.to/qJVAAF>

</comment><comment><USER9> I am often under the impression that many philosophers take linguistic constructions such as "meaning" and "morality" to be entities that can exist on their own, outside functioning brains, while on the other hand they claim to be materialists. They strive to find a way to make logic (syntax) produce meaning, forgetting that semantic meaning is all about context, emotion and behavior shaped by millions of years of evolution. Philosophers do care about complexity (they care about everything, it's their job), but their metaphors are always about metaphysics or notions of some kind of "x-liness" that, like an "elan vital" will give meaning to the soulless constructions of mathematics and physics (chinese room, waterfalls, qualia).

The paper gives numerous examples where a philosopher could use complexity theory, but doesnt go so far as to make any conclusions, thus showing that comp. complexity is actually useful for these problems.</comment>


A photograph shows a 1956 computer disk memory storage unit - <AUTHOR> https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/computer-storage-1956/ <comment><USER2> Early mass storage was dangerous if it fell on top of someone. Current mass storage is a choking hazard.

Compare [https://opendatacity.github.io/stasi-vs- nsa/english.html](https://opendatacity.github.io/stasi-vs-nsa/english.html)</comment>


Unito raises $10.5M to unify disparate enterprise apps and services - <AUTHOR> https://venturebeat.com/2020/01/22/unito-raises-10-5-million-to-unify-disparate-enterprise-apps-and-services/ <comment><USER2> Hi folks, Marc here, founder of Unito. AMA!

<comment><USER3> Hi, can you compare your products to others in this space? Zapier, tray.io, workato, etc

<comment><USER2> Yup: Unito is built from the ground up to do two-way sync as opposed to trigger+action. That makes a big difference when you're collaborating back and forth in tools as we'll sync bidirectionally comments, attachments, assignees, subtasks, and a bunch more.

Make sense?</comment></comment></comment>


Logitech CEO: Google TV a 'gigantic mistake' - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/11/logitech_googletv_gigantic_mistake/ <comment><USER2> Blaming their failure on Google is just Bullshit. Logitech's Support for the Revue is abysmal. They are rude in the forums to their users and constantly take the approach of "it's the software" and "that's google's responsibility" however their system is closed and the don't allow developers to make modifications if necessary. It's been three weeks and I still haven't had my 3.1 Honeycomb update appear as an option to upgrade. (something Logitech should just have as a download on their site)

The revue/gtv was supposed to be the new (original) Xbox. The perfect media device, not only will it play all your movies, you can browse the internet on it. The Logitech Media player doesn't play particular formats, sucks at search, needs to reconnect constantly over wifi and is generally just plagued with issues.

Here is what they need to do to save the Revue.

1\. Samba & DLNA (no samba was an epic mistake, the original xbox had samba ffs) 2\. Make it open so users can hack it and modify it for their needs. If you hack it, no warranty or support from Logitech (just like Microsoft and the Xbox). Make it near impossible to brick. If I fuck it up, I should be able to restore easily. 3\. Update the Media Player and have it use VLC so it plays all videos (or something of that nature)

Here is what they should be demanding from Google 1\. Don't assume I live in America. 2\. Allow the community to help out in the development and testing of the revue and have a release cycle similar to Chrome.

I use my Revue as a Media Centre and while I love it, it isn't perfect and I think both Logitech and Google have made mistakes. But step up, admit it, fix the issues, listen to the community.

/rant

<comment><USER3> _Logitech's Support for the Revue is abysmal_

That would explain low customer satisfaction post-purchase but does not explain the terrible sales. People just didn't buy the thing.

I think the problem is Google TV attempts to give you a more awkward interface to things you would rather use a tablet or SmartPhone for. Who wants to browse the web on their TV? Post to Twitter from their TV? It's absurd really. No one wants to do that. People want to watch video on their TV and play games. Google TV played video but you had to pay $300, or about $200-$250 more than competing devices, and didn't play games. It cost as much as a modern gaming console. If it was $100 and had good integration with SmartPhones and tablets it would at least be a pretty good accessory for some people who didn't want a gaming console. Google didn't learn from Apple & Microsoft's mistakes.

<comment><USER4> Aside from the low sales (they never truly explained the benefit of it), my friend from Best Buy also noted that it had an astronomical return rate. No ordinary consumers made it past the setup phase. And, in certain Comcast markets, Google TV isn't compatible (read: cannot be used with) the default Comcast cable boxes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The killer app for these things, I think, is porn. Unlike Apple, Google seems fairly porn-friendly.

If I were a subscription porn service, I'd figure out how to bundle Google TV boxes with a subscription. Add a webcam or something and there would be a huge opportunity to upsell.

I'm actually pretty happy with my $99 Revue just as a Netflix box, but I think with an AppleTV, Xbox 360, PS3, Macbook Pro, PC, and Revue, I'm kind of set for Netflix playback options.

It might also be an interesting digital signage box, especially when built into TV sets.

<comment><USER6> Porn isn't a killer app for anyone, it already has a saturated path to consumers.

A killer app has to be something unique that demonstrates the devices unique ability over other technology.

It's trivial to browse to a porn site on my phone, I can do it privately and without the universal access of what is essentially bookmarked porn sites on a machine located in arms reach of anyone who visits my home.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't have a Revue, but I really like my Sony Google TV. It's the best television I have ever owned. It was probably a mistake releasing it without finishing the SDK / App feature (which they just released a few weeks ago, almost a year after the launch).

<comment><USER8> I'll second this. Google TV was a must for me because it drastically reduces the interaction I have with the abysmal set-top UIs (first Comcast, now Dish). I briefly considered the Revue but passed, mainly because I don't want to replace my remote with huge keyboard + trackpad -- on that basis alone one could have predicted the failure of the Revue.

Who could seriously pitch a general consumer device which requires you to replace your remote with a _full-sized keyboard_?

I have a Boxee Box as well, but Google TV and Boxee occupy distinct (if somewhat overlapping) niches. I use Boxee primarily to playback media on my network -- Boxee's UI is horrible for playing back web content, it frequently fails either/both to get the content or to enlarge it to full screen. But for presenting an organized view of your library and playing back a file on the network it's perfect.

Google TV, on the other hand, handles Youtube and other web-based sources of video very well. And as of the new update, it does a really good job of presenting you with a comprehensive view of what's on TV. Not like the stale program guide that all STBs have -- it actually segregates currently playing shows and movies into genres. Supposedly it will be able to make recommendations too.

TL;DR -- I'm not at all dissatisfied with my Google TV.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I don't really like the idea of buying another external box. When I heard they were building these boxes I scratched my head and said, why? That is so 1990's. I already have a computer for that and can hook it up to my flat screen TV.

Now, Google TV embedded on a flat screen TV, that is interesting, no external components/boxes to deal with. My next Flat screen TV will have Google TV. Is like buying a computer and a TV. I will certainly be looking to build Apps for it once I get one.

A huge market for this will be for people that just want to chat/interface (or play games) with other people and for that they don't really need a computer.

<comment><USER10> And then when the embedded Google TV becomes outdated, and there's no more software updates being published for it? You get left with an expensive TV that you have to buy the latest Google TV device for anyway.

I want my TV to do nothing else except display pictures. I can handle hooking other devices up to it to get my content.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Android got a good start because mobile phones are an established market that customers have a need for. HTC and the other Android partners know how to make phones with the polish needed. Android could start without all the software ready to go.

Google TV is in a market with no breakout use case. It also had certain players actively against it. The experience really needed to be polished and desirable. The SDK needed to be complete and allow developers to build apps to make customers go wow. It really needed a lot more refinement before introduction.

</comment><comment><USER12> This simply points out the difficulty in taking a half-baked system (like Google TV) and marrying it with a not-so-competent partner (like Logitech.)

Plenty of blame to go around in this scenario.

</comment><comment><USER13> What I think was an absolutely fatal mistake with the Google TV was announcing that it was going to be open to developers and not delivering on the SDK until over a year later.

Fine, there was no hardware released to target it but they could have been building their developer community since the announcement day. Perhaps then they could have at least a chance proving to the networks and content companies that their platform had a chance of being viable.

</comment><comment><USER14> I understand why it wasn't popular with the public, they don't care about key customization and expect a TV replacement not just a gateway to the internet. But as a programmable, cheap and pretty interface to the web, I have only good things to say about this box. Love the ability to customize any key, love the $99 price tag and the UI is only getting better. This is a box for us, not the hoi polloi.

</comment><comment><USER15> _But since the service isn't supported by ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, or Viacom, there's not much to watch on it_

Sounds like Joost.

<comment><USER16> Well, at least there's Netflix, Amazon VOD and Prime, and crackle; but _still_ no Hulu Plus, no Vudu, no {abc|cbs|nbc|fox}.com video. It's kinda dead in the water without even _one_ of those above.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I don't understand why you have to "develop hardware" for this. Unless you are willing to produce hardware at a loss its already incredibly cheap to take off the shelf parts and put together a media box. To me it sounds like a lot of over engineering and blatant waste of resources.

</comment><comment><USER18> I wonder if "operational miscues in EMEA" means "no marketing whatsoever". This is the first time I hear about GoogleTV, and I live in the UK. If you launch something as mainstream as this, you better have a marketing campaign to go with it.

<comment><USER19> do you use adblock? for a couple months, logitech revue was easily the most frequently seen banner on the web for me.

<comment><USER18> I do use adblock, but i meant things like roadside advertising. I saw plenty of those when they pushed Chrome, none for revue. I don't watch much tv, but my friends do and they never mentioned it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> My consolation with my GoogleTV is that I didn't pay for it, and its transparent enough in terms of day to day use of the TV where I don't usually see it, and I'm too lazy to disconnect it.

Our one and only use of it has been to rent content on Amazon VOD.

</comment><comment><USER21> This is pretty funny. Reminds me of how Steve Jobs dismissed it at the D conference when Google TV originally launched by saying something like "Google will find out in 6 months" how difficult the TV market is.

<comment><USER6> Apple have had small success in coercing content providers to engage a la carte digital distribution, often by leveraging Job's close ties with Disney (he was the largest share holder, and sold them Pixar.) With Disney on board the other networks would have to provide content or potentially face giving Disney a head start in online.

The commercial failure of this device was predictable: The largest issue is that consumers will reject the devices if they don't have a wide and reliable range of content, this is something which google has less experience in, and it's why Apple secured some serious content before launching. (Again those Disney ties.)

The challenge Google face is that the video media industries are determined to keep their existing business models and are fearful of what happened to the music industry. (Where Apple/other digital distributors are now able to dictate better terms for consumers.) For example the movie industry still wants the consumer to go to the cinema, watch it in 3d, then later rent it, then sell it to a TV network for viewing, sell it again to you on it's own as a dvd, then later as a bluray disc, and then possibly 3D as well, finally again as special editions/1&2&3 bundle pack/ or extended edition. A single digital distribution takes away this ability to resell the exact same content again and again, and this is why they're fighting these kinds of distribution methods, they don't want a googleTV product which could become ubiquitous, forcing out all of the other ways they can resell content to you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> They really need to get game makers on board. Having the ability to transfer and play games from a phone to the tv would be a pretty awesome thing.</comment>


Ask HN: What to look for in a NON-technical cofounder - <AUTHOR>

There is a lot of talk on HN about what to look for in a technical cofounder but I'm wondering what we should look for in a non-technical cofounder. Is there even a need for this person in a small startup? I recall reading that 37 signals doesn't hire anyone who doesn't have a strong technical skill set; no one whose only role is to manage others.<p>What should a non-technical cofounder bring to the table? <comment><USER2> Non-techie checking in.

As an outsider, this diminution of the non-techie into the "sales and marketing" box seems pervasive throughout the hacker network. And a bit dangerous. Is is not I, the non-techie, who is responsible for your sacred traction, which is required so that you may be crowned a success?

Perhaps I've other contributions, relevant to the actual product you want me to sell, that might be of value.

<comment><USER3> Interesting... I don't see the "sales and marketing" box as a diminutive thing at all. If you see my answer above, I put a tremendous amount of value on those functions. And, as a techie first and foremost, I acknowledge that those are my weak areas, so - for me - looking for a "sales and marketing" person is to look for a person with skills that are a complement to mine. Of course I do know a little something about marketing, and any technical skills the "sales and marketing" person has _are_ valued. In fact, if you are selling a very technical product, the folks in sales and marketing must have some degree of technical know-how in order to understand their own product!

 _Perhaps I've other contributions, relevant to the actual product you want me to sell, that might be of value._

Certainly. It would be interesting, however, to hear you elaborate on that, from your non-techie point of view. As a techie, I know what I think I want in a non-techie "sales and marketing" person, but how about you tell us what you think you'd be bringing to the table as the co-founder of a startup? Might be a good reality check for some of us techie types...

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If you're a technical founder, with some interest and understanding on how to create some buzz around your app and get in users - I'd say, you don't really need a business / non-technical founder early on. Though, at some stage when you start scaling up, you will need someone (could be technical or non- technical) who can help on the business side. Andrew Chen's recent post has some good points on this -

[http://andrewchenblog.com/2011/02/05/stanford-cs-major- seeks...](http://andrewchenblog.com/2011/02/05/stanford-cs-major-seeks- salesmarketing-monkey/)

"What do geeks really need help with? It's very simple- there's a class of purely business-related stuff that adds value:

selling stuff and making money getting partnerships and marketing/distribution of the product funding the company scalable marketing/monetization strategy (ad arb / viral / freemium / etc.) team recruiting, particularly of other engineers and disciplines (not other MBAs please) If you are an expert at any of the above and can show it, then there's a lot more value. Very few business folks, particularly newly-minted MBAs (with the exception of Stanford folks) or industry-switchers can really deliver on these though, which is why they're not bringing much to the table.

Then there's a class of things that are much more product-oriented, and while it overlaps with the skillset of some engineers, if you have great skills in any of the following, they are clearly valuable too:

design, especially visual design UI/frontend skills – HTML/CSS/JS – even if mediocre! copywriting within the product for help text, marketing, etc user research and customer development usability testing."

</comment><comment><USER3> _Is there even a need for this person in a small startup?_

I guess it depends on the nature of the startup. If your startup is a threewords.me type thing, then maybe you don't need a "business person" early on; you just need to launch the app, promote it a bit, and if it goes viral, slap some ads on there or what-have-you.

But if your startup is a B2B enterprise software startup, and you're a purely technical founder with no background in sales, marketing, prospecting, lead generation, etc., then I'd say you absolutely want a "business person" on- board from very early.

 _I recall reading that 37 signals doesn't hire anyone who doesn't have a strong technical skill set; no one whose only role is to manage others._

Just because they're "non-technical" doesn't mean their only role is to manage others. A "non technical cofounder" could/should be participating in: doing customer development, developing a marketing strategy, prospecting for leads, closing sales, finding funding, negotiating funding deals, doing business development (partnerships, etc.), developing a channel strategy, talking to channel partners, etc., etc., etc.

 _What should a non-technical cofounder bring to the table?_

Again, depends on the situation. What I'm looking for in a non-technical cofounder includes:

experience selling enterprise software, experience developing marketing strategy, experience with customer development, knowledge of positioning, existing relationships with potential customers and partners, relationships with potential investors, and the ability to sell ice to Eskimos (or Bibles to the Devil.)

</comment><comment><USER5> I agree that it depends on the type of business you are developing. The success of our start-up requires someone with my specific knowledge which is non-technical.

I can tell you what I am bringing to the table so maybe you can understand why someone who is non-technical is helpful in a start-up.

1\. I came up with the idea and keep generating ideas. 2\. I have Specific knowledge of the market we are targeting and what they need. I forecasted where the market would go and I am comfortable that I will still be able to do this in the future. 3\. I am not afraid to approach anyone about anything. 4\. Happy to do work outside my comfort zone. 5\. Writing and researching and design skills. 6\. I hack things outside of technology. 7\. Entrepreneurial background. I know what I am getting into and what it takes to succeed. 8\. Business experience on three continents giving me a global perspective of what is needed by our users in different areas of the world in relationship to our project. 9.Graduate degree that saves our company money. 10\. Ego in check.

So that is what I bring to the company. Find someone like that and you will be super happy because you will be able to focus more time on the stuff that you love doing which is technical.</comment>


Google is building its own town near its Silicon Valley headquarters - <AUTHOR> https://www.businessinsider.com/google-mountain-view-new-campus-renderings-middlefield-park-2020-9 <comment> dawg- I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine

I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine

I loaded sixteen tons of number 9 coal

And the straw boss said, "Well-a bless my soul!"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt

Saint Peter don't you call me, 'cause I can't go

I owe my soul to the company store

I wonder, will we live to see the day tech workers go the way of coal miners? And who will write this generation's _Sixteen Tons_?</comment>


Show HN: Mobile Self Checkout with QR Codes and NFC Tags - <AUTHOR> https://accelpay.io <comment><AUTHOR> Hi everyone, some friends and I have been working on this self checkout platform using QR codes and NFC tags for the past few months. Targeting retailers, restaurants, food vendors and concessions. Scan a QR code with your phone's camera to test it out. Open to any feedback on product improvements and potential use cases!

<comment><USER2> Cool idea best of luck with it!

I haven't seen the QR code design on your homepage before. Did you custom make it yourselves? If so, could you share any links on how to do that? I have a QR code education app idea and I'd like to explore if it's possible to make more visually appealing branded QR codes :)</comment></comment>


Only one in ten medical treatments are backed by high-quality evidence - <AUTHOR> https://theconversation.com/only-one-in-ten-medical-treatments-are-backed-by-high-quality-evidence-145224 <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383819](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24383819)</comment>


Show HN: Roll20, a new virtual tabletop for playing RPGs online - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rileydutton/roll20-virtual-tabletop-gaming-that-tells-a-story This is a project that I have been working on in my spare time for a while now. It's a new virtual tabletop for playing pen and paper role playing games online, but it takes an entirely different approach than anything out there right now. Rather than trying to turn pen and paper games into video games, with features centered around one-click damage calculations and detailed stats tracking, Roll20 focuses on storytelling. It has completely new features like background music, player journals, and an expansive art library with a built-in web search.
The entire system runs on NodeJS, Padrino, Backbone JS, Raphael, ShareJS, and a few dozen other "HTML5" technologies. OpenTok/TokBox powers the built-in video chat.
We're trying to raise some money on Kickstarter to fund further development and get us to the finish line. If you enjoy playing pen and paper games and think this is a good idea, we'd love your support -- help us spread the word! <comment><USER2> I run <http://obsidianportal.com> From the beginning we focused on the story aspect of tabletop games and avoided the gamey crunch. That decision has paid off time and time again.

If you guys want to bypass some of the journal features and instead focus on the tabletop, check out our API: <http://help.obsidianportal.com/kb/api/api- overview> You could use Obsidian Portal as the backend to store characters, notes, journal, etc. Allow people to import their Obsidian Portal campaigns into Roll20, and you can focus on the tabletop.

We've got around 40,000 campaigns in our system, so it's not a fool's errand.

Contact me at firstname.lastname@example.com if you're interested.

<comment><USER3> Micah, no joke, you are on a list of folks we wrote down to contact about this. Really excited to see you're interested and we will ABSOLUTELY be in touch.

Funny what a small place the internet is sometimes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've wanted to make something like this for years but never had the time. I remember about a decade ago I tried something called OpenRPG (and even submitted a bunch of patches to it) but it was fairly clunky to use and didn't include voice-chat so we had to use roger-wilco on top of it.

Really interface is key, computer interfaces tend to get in your way and that is really damaging to the flow of the game. I'm definitely going to check this out, and if it's any good, I'll be a bit jealous that I'm not working on it.

</comment><comment><USER5> OK, Backed. I like tools like this. I think too often they get cluttered down trying to implement the rules system in the game.

I don't want that, I don't need that. That's what the GM is for, and trying to implement the rules themselves mean I need to program, in order to run my game.

I just want an extension of my minis map, on the web. I'd like to click-and- drag to move figures around, scribble on stuff, and maybe import some PNGs if I feel motivated.

Or not. My scribbles are good enough, since you have VIDEO of me, right there, describing it.

Again, this is where people get lost.

Things don't need to stand alone, like they would in Diablo, or Baulder's gate. I don't want to spend a long time mapping out a dungeon before we play, I want to fire up a game, and wing it as we all play together.

That's what I love about Tabletop games. As a GM, I can just use my marker, and my voice, and GO!

Make that easy, and I'll get all my friends to get their friends to sign up ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd say you just gave a pretty good summary if our core philosophy. Here's a comment I made on Reddit along those lines: [http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/rcw9t/can_we_have_a_dis...](http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/rcw9t/can_we_have_a_discussion_on_virtual_tables/c44vcse)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This looks really interesting. I've also looked at a few of the other virtual tabletop products out there and not been super happy with what I've seen. Making a note to myself to make a pledge later tonight.

Have you posted a link to this kickstarter anywhere else? A cursory search on reddit didn't pull up any results, and I think there are a few subreddits over there that might have some interest as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> We've posted to /r/rpg and /r/dnd, but linked directly to the site (<http://roll20.net>) instead...just as a sort of mini A/B test to see if it made a difference :-). If you know of any other subreddits feel free to spread the word!

<comment><USER7> What about /r/games, /r/kickstarter?

<comment><USER3> Good suggestions. I'm on it. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> A very cool project, I've passed word on to the gaming friends I thought might be interested. Heck, I'd be completely geeked about playing D&D or d20 Star Wars using it, particularly with the vast majority of my gaming friends living at least two hours drive away.

It doesn't seem like it would suit my style of GMing at all, though. It's been decades since I used a battle mat or dice. My basic style is just to tell the players what they see, and ask them what they do. Even just trying to come up with pictures for the NPCs the players encounter would seriously slow me down -- in a normal session, probably half of the NPCs and settings are generated on the fly. On the other hand, the video chat, the text chat, the logging, and the idea of mood music all sound like they'd be great tools.

Would it be reasonable to run the system with just those features going? Is there something else out there which will already do this?

<comment><USER9> Come to think of it - thats probably a good simple feature for them to add:

An 8 bit mode or a simplified mode - A lot of the genre is related to imagination - the GM comes up with his description of frightening beasts, and people fill in the gaps with their own take on it.

At the same time the case should also be made that a good market place will also create good art that inspires people to come up with scenarios.

Hmm. Heck if the market place even takes inspiration from deviant art landscapes and the likes, it could be an impressive force.

<comment><USER3> Had a guy on Something Awful today ask if he could play on a white background with just color blocks as tokens.

Yes.

Play checkers if you'd like. Honestly, at it's base this is a system of layers in a browser. You can put one thing on top of another thing. You put a token on a table. That's why this thing is cool, I think. Yeah, I'm using it to play D&D... but Riley and I were both pretty intent on making sure this was a blank slate. We both love video games-- but we also both loved that tabletop games can be so, so much more because it's whatever you bring (or don't bring) to the table.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Nice work so far. There seems to be growing interest in online roleplaying, but most of the current offerings are lacking right now.

I personally launched Fabletop.com a couple of months ago, but the approach is a bit different, focusing more on a robust chat system, and less on the battlemat.

Good luck to you guys!

</comment><comment><USER11> This is such a cool implementation. Would you be willing to do a write up about how you got the basic tabletop functionality working? I see on your acknowledgements page[0] you use NodeJS and ShareJS. I assume you do JSON object editing like the Hex example[1]?

[0]: <http://roll20.net/policies/acknowledgements.html>

[1]: <http://sharejs.org/hex.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> I will try and put together a writeup when I get a spare moment. Yes, we are using the JSON object syncing functionality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I love tabletop RPGs, and I wish there were better options for playing with friends online. I chipped in -- hope you get funded!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your support!

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> At first I thought you were talking about a touch table interface for RPG / Board Games. A couple of my friends are doing a bunch of development in that vein:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGMjnmdwC8s>

</comment><comment><USER14> strangely enough, I own roll20.com and am working on something similar...

<comment><AUTHOR> I was wondering who had that :-). We were originally going to go with d20.io but couldn't figure out if it sounded good or not, and so now that is our shortening URL instead. I checked before using roll20.net and nothing was set up on roll20.com, so we moved forward.

<comment><USER14> No need to justify it - you didn't do anything wrong. :-)

Contact me at troygoode AT gmail DOT com. Maybe I could trade the .com over to you for a domain you have laying around?

<comment><USER15> Heh. Does kickstarter take donations in kind?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Very original, I hope this gets funded. 5k isn't much either!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> As an avid tabletopper I really resonate with your prioritization on social. Chipping in and spreading the word to my gaming group as well. :)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! I'm glad to know there are so many others out there who share that perspective.</comment></comment>


Introducing 1Password Business - <AUTHOR> https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/04/03/introducing-1password-business/ <comment><AUTHOR> I'm really excited to see this, especially the part where each employee gets a free Families account!</comment>


Hacker Challenge: Can advances in image enhancement help identify this driver? - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-35472617 <comment><AUTHOR> We've seen it in so many criminal investigation TV shows, and so much Science Fiction:

        Isolate section F3
            and enhance.

Well, here's a real world, real life case. Some driver appears to have deliberately run into a cyclist and driven away.

Can you help identify them?

<comment><USER2> Exactly, that is all science 'fiction'. Its not possible to add data that was not there before.

<comment><USER3> I think that most of the users here (including the OP) understand the difference. But sometimes there is some information in the video. For an unrelated success case, you can read the reconstruction of the video of the first spacex "landing" [http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/06/recovering- falcon-9-o...](http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/06/recovering- falcon-9-ocean-landing-video-done/) Another case was the reconstruction of Pluto surface using images of the Hubble in 2010: [http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/pluto-20100...](http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/pluto-20100204.html)

In this video the resolution is good, the problem is that there is a big reflection over the windshield that covers completely the driver. Perhaps if you can subtract the reflections and take an average between all the frames of the video you could get something.

I'm not very optimistic. I'll be happy if it's possible to count how many passengers were in the car. Tall/Short. Fat/Thin. But I guess it will not be possible to get facial details.

[Somewhat unrelated: A few years ago, I analyzed videos to track particles with a resolution on 1/10th of a pixel. It was easier because the particles were round, so you only need to guess where they are. But obviously it was not possible to see if they have a smile face painted on them.]</comment></comment></comment>


Thwarting Protein Reverses Brain Decline in Aged Mice - <AUTHOR> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thwarting-protein-reverses-brain-decline-in-aged-mice/ <comment><USER2> "Plasma from old mice or humans worsens cognition and biological indicators of brain health, when infused into young mice. Conversely, plasma from young mice (or humans) rejuvenates old brains"

Sounds like a premise for B class horror movie, but apparently this is already a thing. Just Google for words "inject young blood"

</comment><comment><USER3> A necessary reminder every time a mouse study comes up: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746847/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746847/)</comment>


Has China's digital currency gone into public beta? - <AUTHOR> https://decrypt.co/25465/has-chinas-digital-currency-gone-into-public-beta <comment><USER2> I mean this isn't really anything new. Cash use in major Chinese cities is next to nothing, all money might as well be virtual already.</comment>


Apple Removes Tool to Check If an iPhone or iPad Is Activation Locked - happy-go-lucky http://www.macrumors.com/2017/01/29/apple-removes-activation-lock-status-checker/ <comment><AUTHOR> And apparently it's because thieves use the activation lock testing website to find serial numbers that are unlocked, and use those to re-activate stolen iPhones/iPads [1]. Brazen bastards.

That, incidentally, also explains why recently a couple of newly bought bona- fide iPhones were locked and could not be activated by their rightful owners.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ImXgMoviQD0](https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ImXgMoviQD0)</comment>


Twilio Raises $3.7 Million For Powerful Telephony API - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/12/30/twilio-raises-3-7-million-for-powerful-telephony-api/

<comment><USER2> I saw a demo of a startup weekend app built on Twilio. Before it started, a box was passed around the room and people were asked to put their business cards in it.

Then, while one guy ran the demo, another was putting all the phone numbers into the app. The guy at the podium clicks 'submit' and 5 seconds later all the phones in the room start ringing. It was an awesome effect.

Congrats to the Twilio team on an awesome product, and I can't wait to see where it goes.

<comment><USER3> I was there too :)

It was a very Lawnmower Man moment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Congrats to Twilio! (Disclaimer: I invested in them also. I obviously think they are neat.)

<comment><USER5> They are neat, they're good people, and the VoIP enabled application market is going to grow a ton over the next decade.

Disclaimer: The host on AWS, I work for Rackspace and I still like them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Spiffy! I normally mostly ignore funding announcements but I was hoping to integrate them into my next app and didn't want to build core features on something which may or may not survive on a month to month basis. Them having a few million largely eases my worries about that.

</comment><comment><USER7> A couple years ago I built IVR apps with Voxeo. Then Twilio came out. Game changer. You can make calls from a bash prompt, through an utterly simple API, and its cheaper than any alternative on a per-call basis. Twilio is disruptive, and they will go far.

<comment><USER8> Why is it better than Voxeo?

<comment><USER7> Voxeo has a much more complex, full-blow VoiceXML language, the setup is more complex - you have to tune things, and overall the complexity of making calls is higher. They were also much more expensive at the time. It started at 12 cents per minute in the smallest bucket, which is highway robbery.

Although they were launching their own version of an offering similar to Twilio in response to the competition, it may be out by now? They also have a pretty liberal development account policy, that lets you do a good deal of testing for free. They also bill at half minute intervals, which I don't think Twilio does... which can make 30 second calls with them cheaper, even if you're paying 7 cents a minute (at a higher volume bucket).

If you need full blown VoiceXML, Voxeo is good. For most people, Twilio is quite good enough - and lacks the enterprise XML baggage.

<comment><USER9> Disclosure, before I start, I run Voxeo's Developer Network.

We think there's room in the world for both API-based cloud options and XML standards-based development. We have a variety of options for building and deploying apps and a wide range of pricing. From 3 cents per minute in the cloud to enterprise apps with SLAs that run the voice applications for some of the world's largest companies.

For our enterprise customers, many of them prefer to use the w3c standard VoiceXML to avoid vendor lock-in. Some of them also use our proprietary CallXML, a simplified language for building apps. These apps run on our carrier-grade hosting facilities in the US and Europe or at the customer's data centers.

For web devlopers, we have Tropo.com, a cloud service offers APIs for popular web programming languages. Build in PHP, JavaScript, Ruby, Groovy, or Python, with more options coming shortly. Pay as you go, develop in your native language, and run your apps in a cloud on top of the same infrastructure our enterprise hosting customers use.

It's more than voice. Using one code base, your app can not only make and receive phone calls, but also send and receive SMS messages and interact over IM and Twitter.

As rjurney mentioned, we're developer friendly. You can create an account on either Tropo or on our enterprise hosting for free and run there as long as you need to without charge. We don't put any artificial limits on our dev platforms. We'll give you a dedicated phone number for your app. We'll also give you Skype numbers, SIP addresses, an XMPP address, and a toll-free number. Build and test your app, hand it to your friends to try out. When you're ready to move to production, let us know.

<comment><USER7> Tropo is the new offering I was talking about, and at 3 cents a minute that is a pretty compelling offering. Bravo. I should also add that Voxeo technical support was some of the best I've ever dealt with. It could be 2am and the night guy would respond immediately, and I got through to engineering promptly if necessary.

I see now that Twilio is also now 3 cents per minute. Neck and neck :) Both offerings look pretty good.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think this could be a game changer. But sadly, they might infringe on countless number of telecom patents if they introduce more than basic features (call handling,enhanced IVR, enhanced conferencing, and etc).

They have to walk a fine line.

<comment><USER11> patent infringement ?

could you elaborate how - I mean, if a developer uses their API to create a product tailored around IVR, could it infringe?

Or is it at the infrastructure level?

<comment><USER10> I'm not sure if they infringe on the infrastructure level now because all their examples are very basic (making calls, receiving calls, forwarding calls and etc.) These have been patented and their terms have expired. I bet that's one of the reasons they only have basic examples on their site.

I'm not a litigation expert but if you were to build a feature that infringes on a patent you might be liable.

Below is a link to uspto telephony classifications. [http://uspto.gov/web/patents/classification/uspc379/sched379...](http://uspto.gov/web/patents/classification/uspc379/sched379.htm)</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: GifFight.club – Who has the winning gif? - <AUTHOR> http://giffight.club

<comment><AUTHOR> Howdy!

I made this this morning in around 6 hours from domain availability to 'launch' and I'll be writing a blog post about that soon.

See if you can become the King of Gif Fight Club!

</comment><comment><USER3> What's with the creepy, invasive Twitter tie-in?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Astrodust,

Twitter is there for authentication so you can't 'vote hack' as easily - <USER2> was also much easier to integrate than a full user account system/email verificatoin.

Also, somebody else mentioned this (in a less abrasive way) - what is it about the Twitter auth that's so creepy and invasive?

<comment><USER4> For me, I'm not a Twitter user and would rather not be a Twitter user, so your app is instantly inaccessible.

Also, I fail to see why this would need to be able to read my tweets or those who I follow, assuming I even _am_ a Twitter user.

I suppose it's not much worse than relying on Facebook or Google to authenticate, but it's not like it wouldn't be hard to create a bunch of Twitter accounts to vote hack with. Plus, let's be honest here: it's a site where you vote on funny moving pictures. This isn't the bloody U.S. Presidential Election; if you're worried about vote hacking at this stage, you're probably overthinking things.

Just my two cents/pence/$FRACTIONAL_CURRENCY.</comment></comment></comment>


Serverless now supports Microsoft Azure - <AUTHOR> https://serverless.com/blog/azure-functions-and-possibility/ <comment><USER2> I am very excited about this new feature.</comment>


Miguel de Icaza: "As of today, I am officially miguelMicrosoft.com" - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/748991444321525760 <comment><USER2> The filter is the submission title ate the @. Original message:

> _As of today, I am officially firstname.lastname@example.com_</comment>


Our startup just produced a splash video, what do you think? - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-GtY6Me5q8

<comment><USER2> Like the fake company names =)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yea the names came out sounding great.</comment></comment>


Microsoft Responds to Yahoo Announcement - <AUTHOR> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080211/aqm241.html

<comment><USER2> "It is unfortunate that Yahoo..."

Could they have sounded more sinister?

Nice little web-site you have there. It would be a shame if 'something' were to happen to it.

</comment><comment><USER3> What's the consensus here? Is MS going to bid higher or just go straight for the throat?</comment>


Venture Investors Wrap Up an Unusually Bleak Quarter  - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/business/28venture.html

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks about this, especially from those who have raised $ before and are now doing it again - has it become more challenging in recent months?</comment>


Mockingbird goes 1.0, introduces real-time collaboration using OT and Node - <AUTHOR> http://blog.gomockingbird.com/10-and-real-time-collaboration

<comment><USER2> Used it, presented a site to a client with it, love it. The level of detail on design elements is nice, so things can get blocked out without the distractions of too-polished design (i.e. hundreds of icons, custom images).

Really appreciated and heavily used the grid update from a few months ago -- well implemented with the minimum amount of UI, like the rest of the app.

Highly recommended.

</comment><comment><USER3> As a (freelance) product manager type person, I spend a fair amount of my time designing wireframes...

I LOVE Balsamiq (another wireframing option), Peldi (balsamiq founder) is a really nice guy and one of my companies even hosts some of their website... but I've moved over to using Mockingbird for my own work. It's that good.

If you need to design wireframes, I encourage you to try Mockingbird.

<comment><USER4> I've never used balsamiq as I've always been happy with Mockingbird. They've been really responsive over the only support issue I had as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hey guys, Saikat from Mockingbird here - I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about our operation transformation framework or about our launch.

<comment><USER6> You keep doing great work with Mockingbird! However, a few things keep me in Omnigraffle for now - the biggest issues I have is the lack of free drawing tools and/or a much larger library of components, icons etc. I would also put the ability to create interactivity within a page high on my wishlist - Omnigraffle does this (albeit crudely) with the ability to hide/show layers.

<comment><AUTHOR> What ways would you envision for interactivity in addition to separate pages?

<comment><USER6> Realistically: The ability to show or hide objects on a page. This would make creating things like tooltips, lightboxes, dialogues etc. a lot easier.

Ideally: I would like components to match their actual behaviour more closely, e.g. a tab container would actually contain views in the respective tabs that would be shown or hidden depending on the tab selected. I know this is no easy feat - I have yet to find a wireframing tool that lets you infuse interactivity as easily as one would like to, and I have been through a lot of them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Really love Mockingbird, really made it easy for me to mockup what I wanted for my startup app. Especially using offshore developers a picture really is a 1000 words. Looking forward to trying the new features

</comment><comment><USER8> Link to the live collaboration demo: <https://gomockingbird.com/mockingbird/demo.html>

edit: updated link to saikat's suggestion

<comment><USER5> There are actually multiple demos going on. If you go to <https://gomockingbird.com/mockingbird/demo.html> it will put you on one of the projects via ghetto load balancing (read: redirect to one of the demo projects at random).

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I used Mockingbird's beta in the beginning of the year for a project with 5 other colleagues, and it is pretty a pretty awesome web app. Hats off to you two!

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice work! Are these guys thinking about open sourcing the OT components? A couple of us are starting up an npm module to allow generic OT using node.

<http://github.com/ajessup/pluto> [http://www.dontstopthesignal.com/2010/05/design-goals-for- pl...](http://www.dontstopthesignal.com/2010/05/design-goals-for-pluto-open- source-ot.html)

<comment><USER5> Hey -- sorry, but we aren't planning on open sourcing our OT framework yet. I would be more than happy to talk to you about about it though (my e-mail's in my HN profile).

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Congrats, Saikat and Sheena! This is very cool.

</comment><comment><USER12> I used Mockingbird a while ago (& loved it) but since then I had forgotten all about it.

I got the email notification about these upgrades this morning and it was poorly written. You might want to re-visit the text and look it over. I've deleted it now so can't quote you specifics but I remember seeing lines advising that services would be available until Jan 2010 etc.

It would have also helped having a line at the top simply stating what Mockingbird is for those of us who may have forgotten.

(great product though; I'll be trying it again now I've been reminded it exists)

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the feedback. The date mixup was a typo that somehow escaped our notice despite several re-readings, but good point about reminding users what the service is. That you yourself think about your product daily is no reason to entertain the fond hope that users sign up and then immediately frame a screenshot of your site on their desk to gaze at lovingly, just waiting for the next moment they can throw you a pageview.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Congratulations. The realtime collaboration is pretty slick. For us it's less of a collaborative process and more I make the stuff and then send it for review. Im looking forward to what myBalsamiq.com will offer.

The pain points in wireframing software are:

* organizing projects / groups of similar wireframes

* keeping track of versions

* allowing anyone on your team to get access to / update the latest file.

</comment><comment><USER15> The centre canvas where things are dragged/dropped or drawn is pretty cool. Did you guys create one yourself or is there a plugin that's available?

<comment><USER13> The whole app is written in Cappuccino. To be more precise, that canvas is a custom CPView. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Pony request: change the size of the canvas. On my 13" MBP at 1280x800, there are highly-fucking-irritating scrollbars for the canvas. This fucks me up a lot. I'd love to be able to resize the canvas or "zoom out" so this didn't happen. I don't actually need 960px to play with to design for a 960px wide site.

Give me this tiny horse and I'll abandon Balsamiq. Thanks!

<comment><AUTHOR> You can resize by dragging the handles at the bottom, right, and bottom-right edges. You can also use the chrome/safari full page zoom option to zoom out, the application keeps working fine (though there are a few slight rendering errors).

<comment><USER16> HFS, I never knew about Chrome's full page option. Congrats, you won my business.

Note: this is exactly like how 25% of AOL's support tickets involved issues with Windows. Remember, your users are always dumber than you are.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> HOw does the collaboration work? Is this part opf thre capuccino framework, on your web site you mention google wave.</comment>


Airbnb victim describes crime and aftermath - <AUTHOR> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/30/BUQ51KH2FR.DTL <comment><USER2> _She said the subject of compensation from Airbnb is still in flux, declining to provide further details._

 _In a corporate statement on Thursday, Airbnb said: "Trust and safety are Airbnb's highest priorities and as such the improved safety processes are being implemented immediately . . ."_

A few legal (and other) observations:

1\. An Airbnb guest has committed serious property crimes against an Airbnb host, causing not only significant financial loss to the host but also potentially severe emotional trauma.

2\. As a contract matter, the Airbnb terms tell that host that the company assumes no legal responsibility for anything that might happen in her interactions with that guest. Contract disclaimers of this type are generally legally valid and enforceable so as to limit company liability.

3\. That said, the law will look at the overall relationships between the parties and will not necessarily limit liability when those relationships give rise to legal duties from one party to another beyond those defined by contract. In particular, if a company materially misleads those who use its services, or if a company assumes an implied duty based on its conduct or statements in a transaction, or if any other basis exists by which the law might define a legal duty that, if breached, gives rise to liability, then liability can exist entirely independent of contract. In such a case, the contract disclaimers, though they might limit liability for any express breach of the contract itself, do not limit the legal claims of a victim of a breach of the duties that might exist independently of the contract.

4\. The victim of the crime here, in her blog post, very pointedly mentioned her view on this issue when she said: "By hindering my ability to research the person who will rent my home, _there is an implication that Airbnb.com has already done the research for me_ "; and then added that the friendly, community-based site "creates a _reasonable expectation_ that some basic screening of its users has occurred" (my emphasis). Whether intended to or not, the key phrases highlighted in these quotes suggest that the victim here likely sees Airbnb as having violated legal duties owed to her and for which she believes it owes her compensation. In essence, the legal position here would amount to saying (and these are obviously my words and not those of the victim, as I have no idea what her actual position on this is), "I don't care what your stupid contract disclaimers say; you misled me into believing that this was safe and you will make me whole for my harm suffered when I relied on you."

5\. Under law, the "make me whole" part will vary depending on the nature of the breach. If it is a contract breach, then it normally means compensating the victim of a breach for either out-of-pocket losses or for the benefit of a bargain, which in this case would mean for the direct financial damage to property. But under tort theories, for instance, the idea of making a victim whole could easily mean compensating her for emotional trauma and the like. In the one case, the number might then be in, say, the $50,000 range while, in the other, it might be, say, $5,000,000.

6\. I have no idea about the facts here (and indeed have been distressed to watch the HN family tear into each other over this issue) but, logically, it might be that offers of genuine compensation have been made by the company here (e.g., $50K or $100K or whatever) and equally sincere rejections of such offers have occurred because the victim might be using an entirely different measure of what it takes to make her whole (meaning that a much larger number might be expected to compensate for the trauma involved). This is speculation on my part but it is not illogical to assume this might be happening. It also might explain why discussions over this issue remain "in flux," as noted in the quote from this article.

7\. Airbnb has a great business model, and it is one that will survive this incident and indeed help improve people's lives. But it needs to set up stronger procedures to ensure that people understand what they are getting into when they use its services and in helping to minimize the risks to the extent practicable for a company facilitating (but not assuming legal responsibility) for any given transaction. This is no small challenge because the procedures must be both meaningful and cost-effective for the company to implement in order to achieve its business goals. The second quote from the article above confirms that they are trying to do just that. I wish them well in the effort. Based on what pg has said, I would assume these are great founders and I for one am ready to continue to wish them well in their very promising venture while hoping that they have learned some serious lessons from the apparent mishandling of this episode.

8\. As for the victim, EJ, anyone who has experienced serious trauma (as many of us have at one point or other in our lives) can attest that it is impossible for words to capture what this means: not just the pain but the persistence of it all, the fact that it does not just go away, that money can help at the margins only, the hopeless sense of feeling _violated_ \- all this and more makes us all want to see her get past this with some sense of being restored. That takes time and a lot of slow healing and we can only wish her the best in her path to recovery. It will help a lot if the company does the right thing but that is not an easy thing to work out - it too will take some time.

<comment><USER3> Thank you for this. I am continually amazed by the technical detail and the wonderfully human aspect to your writing. Your contributions make HN a much, much better community. The HN family, indeed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Here is what I find interesting about the story. Much of the public outcry is centered around the fact that Airbnb didn't go far enough, hasn't been more proactive, didn't offer enough emotional support. Basically, didn't treat her as a _friend_.

But there was one case when AirBnb acted in a way appropriate in dealing with a friend, but questionable in dealing with a customer. The very "we're in the middle of a funding round" thing that caused another wave of public outcry. Basically, AirBnb is saying "Look, dude, here is our situation: we will help you, but can you take down this blog post, it's really going to hurt us?". Did EJ treat AirBnb as a friend? No. Her response was "why on earth would I care about your situation, here is _my_ situation!"

So, do we want companies to treat us as friends? And if so, do we have a moral obligation to treat them as friends in response? Because the approach "I want you to treat me as a friend, but I'm going to treat you as a cold soulless corporation" does not seem fair to me.

<comment><USER5> Wow.... EJ got into this situation because she trusted the nice words on the AirBnB website. They need to clearly warn about that stuff - just like craigslist does.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I submitted this article (a little warily because I know the front page has been inundated with this story) because it appears to contain the new-to-me information that an arrest in the case was made on June 28 and that the SFPD verified this on July 29.

(edit: Whoops, misread the date - sorry. This story does still seem to have more info from the SFPD than others I've read.)

<comment><USER6> Yes, new to me as well...as now we have an actual name for a suspect. And according to the SFChronicle, the SFPD is characterizing it as being connected to EJ's case, which is more or less what Brian Chesky said:

>The SFPD said Friday that on June 28 officers arrested Faith Clifton, a 19-year-old in San Francisco, in connection the case. She was booked into San Francisco County Jail on possession of stolen property, methamphetamine, fraud charges and an outstanding warrant in Milpitas.

They also detained two individuals in Belmont earlier that day, but released them pending further investigation. A search of the premises produced some items taken in the alleged theft. Read more: [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi- bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/29/...](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi- bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/29/BUQ51KH2FR.DTL#ixzz1Tbvic4GB)

<comment><USER7> > "produced some items taken in the _alleged_ theft"

I really dislike the word "alleged" in this sentence.

A _person_ is innocent until proven guilty, so you could say "the alleged thief". But to say "the alleged theft" casts doubt on the victim's complaint, and on a _crime_ having happened at all. Saying "alleged theft" conveys the possibility that the theft itself didn't happen.

We don't have a "presumption of no crime", and the word "alleged" is, at present, inappropriate referencing the fact this woman's possessions were stolen.

EJ is presumed innocent of lying about the theft until proven otherwise, therefore the fact of theft must be stated as though the crime _did_ happen unless proven otherwise.

<comment><USER8> My understanding is that if journalists don't say that things are alleged then they open themselves up to lawsuits - or at least that's the rationale I've seen presented for things like this in the past. It fits the meaning of the word, too: "asserted to be true or to exist".

<comment><USER7> Today's journalists overuse this word. It's only relevant when speaking of the "alleged" _suspect_ or the suspect's "alleged" actions when the person's participation or their actions are not yet proven. Once proven, the word alleged or allegedly is inappropriate, and it's also inappropriate to describe a crime or characteristics of a crime as it wrongly casts doubt on the victim.

See this for a clear explanation of how this term is often used in error:

<http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/alleged.html>

<comment><USER8> Thank you for the clarification (and especially that link; it's an amazing clear and concise description of the issue).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's amazing what a real journalist will be able to confirm compared to TechCrunch.

</comment><comment><USER10> Huh. Methamphetamine. Color me less sanguine about my take on that particular theory, then. (I thought meth was improbable.)

<comment><USER11> Meth lab is IMO implausible (the neighbors would have complained to the police earlier; the place would have probably burned down too).

Meth users having some kind of tweakfest is highly likely; you're fortunate to not live in the kind of place where this is common. In the trendy parts of SF, there are enough tweakers that this is an obvious possibility.

<comment><USER10> A-haha, no, I live in the place where people are too poor even to do meth. (This is hyperbole: I know specifically that there are people here doing pot (which grows fine here), cocaine (which doesn't), and pills of diverse nature. Also, last year, witnessed some adroit customer service across the street involving oxycontin, an overdose of some sort, and assurances that the oxycontin was legit. Ah, capitalism in action.)

We probably make _your_ meth, which you tweak as you fly over us.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> _"sliced tags off pillows"_

Does this mean something other than what I think it means?

That's just... weird for someone to do, but even weirder for someone to notice and care.

<comment><USER13> Meth addicts do bizarre things for reasons that only make sense in their manic/paranoid hallucinations. Compulsive and repetitive cleaning, redecorating, arranging, painting, burning, cutting, whatever.

The mere fact that such tags usually say "don't remove under penalty of law" may have convinced them it was a listening device. Really.

<comment><USER12> Yeah, I get that, but we are all aware that that warning is meant for the retailers of the pillows not the owners, right? I'm really just confused that it would be even worth mentioning in the same sentence in the other things.

<comment><USER14> I did not know that. Makes a whole lot more sense now.

<comment><USER12> Yep, the tags are meant to inform the purchaser of safety stuff and whatnot.

<http://money.howstuffworks.com/removed-mattress-tag.htm>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "Airbnb victim"? Really?

This is getting out of hand.

<comment><USER10> Well, she's certainly a victim. Which victim? The one associated with Airbnb, at least around here. I think the abbreviation "Airbnb victim" is pretty logical - even if it makes you feel uncomfortably as though she was victimized _by_ Airbnb, which ... well. That's a much tougher question.

<comment><USER16> The question is quite simple IMO; the answer is "no, she wasn't victimized by AirBnB".

I've had an apartment burgled so I do empathize with her to some degree, but I have to say the whole thing is starting to take on an air of melodrama and hyperbole that is becoming offputting. It's probably too soon, and I know I'll be viewed as an insensitive clod, but the time to start healing by rising above it and moving on with her life begins now. If she needs some help, counseling, a support group, whatever; that's fair, some do. But if she does, then get those, and stop using the internet as a substitute.

<comment><USER10> Well, the reason this is not as simple as you would like is this: clearly, the original incident was not AirBnB's fault; it was a crime that happened in the same context as any other rental or lease situation, and (as I've posted in volume elsewhere) it happens. I've had tenants, so I empathize with her immensely, but it's still not even close to AirBnB's fault.

So insofar as the original incident is concerned, you're not wrong. She wasn't victimized by AirBnB.

And in fact initially AirBnB reacted quite admirably - until she posted in public. _Then AirBnB stopped reacting admirably._

There have been some rationalizations for the fact that all contact with the company ceased except for some apparent invitation for a coffee, there's been a request and no doubt a fervent desire on AirBnB's part that this not be quite so public, or at least if public, not quite so eloquent - so you tell me. When a company cuts off contact with you because you endanger their funding, then lies about it in the industry press, is that victimization? I don't know - but neither do you. Which is why I said it's a tougher question.

Also, I'd really like to differ with you rather vehemently with your oblique assertion that the Internet should be seen as a "substitute" for a real community. Where do you think you just posted?

<comment><USER16> > Also, I'd really like to differ with you rather vehemently with your oblique > assertion that the Internet should be seen as a "substitute" for a real > community. Where do you think you just posted?

It's easy to differ with me vehemently when you're differing with something I didn't say, I guess. Apologies if I was unclear.

I didn't say the internet was a substitute for a real community, I said she is trying to use it a substitute for the help she evidently needs.

Secondly, I posted to a _discussion board_ , to... discuss.

<comment><USER10> I can't think of a way to respond to this without it descending into (probably poorly aimed) flamage, so ... never mind, then.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Release. All. Your. Original. Communication. With. AirBnB.

</comment><comment><USER18> Can we please stop posting this stuff? I get it, the woman had a tragic experience, and Airbnb is getting blamed. I still think this is getting wildly overblown--the number of rehashed posts on this topic here is like watching CNN. I don't think HN is for blow-by-blow updates to the story of the hour.

<comment><USER10> When the story of the hour is a YC grad tripping over their feet in PR and the shit hitting the mainstream fan, then yes, I find it multiply pertinent.

There comes a time in a successful startup where this kind of thing can make or break. AirBnB looks perilously close to the latter. Which sucks, but it behooves us to watch.</comment></comment>


Should doctors and or patients have read only API access to the emr? - <AUTHOR> Should doctors and or patients have read only api access to their patients records or their own records in the electronic medical record ?  If yes, how do I convince the medical informatics community ? <comment><USER2> Am I the only one who thought "elastic map reduce" when I read "emr"?</comment>


How working as a cook helped me be a better developer - <AUTHOR> http://www.lengrand.fr/2012/06/how-working-as-a-cook-helped-me-be-a-better-developer/

<comment><USER2> I worked in restaurants on and off for the better part of seven years, five of those cooking. I agree with a lot of what is stated in this article, a few thoughts on my own experience:

1) Nobody is too good to do the dirty work - everybody washes dishes and mops floors.

2) I definitely learned how to be efficient by eliminating unnecessary task switches from some processes, and running 6 or 8 separate processes at the same time.

3) Memory is hugely important for a working line cook. You have to know what you are cooking now (which could be up to 10 or 15 different entrees, depending - I'm sure some do more), what you are cooking next, and where other cooks might need help - plating, making sure sides are stocked, etc.

4) Kitchens can be another true meritocracy. Nobody cares if you dress or talk funny, but if you can't get things done you won't find many friends.

I could go on all day. :)</comment>


Nur – A Simple Framework for PHP - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/izniburak/nur <comment><USER2> "Some Laravel 6.x Packages supports."

I looked through the app code. It honestly feels like you took Laravel, rebranded it Nur, and decided it was good enough.

What do I get by using your framework over Laravel?

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually, it has just some components of Laravel. I selected packages which usually most used for small or mid project. For example; If you want to create a basic project and want to use just Eloquent, Blade Engine, Req/Res and basic router for your project, You can use it simply with almost same usage and codebase. You know Laravel has so many dependencies even though your project is small. So project size usually be large. My purpose was a little challenge and to understand modern programming techs to increase my skills. Of course to use Laravel would be better anytime. Thanks your comment.</comment></comment>