text:
- Casey Christofaris
- Munroe Falls, OH
- United States
Owner, CS3 Inc
This conversation is closed.
Is evolution/religion/everything a self fulfilling prophecy?
What separates us from the rest of species? Recognition of self right? Some will want to argue that there are other species that can recognize self. But then you need to ask well do they recognize self do to our experiments and what we have defined as self recognition or is it innately in them? So is it that we recognize self because of them through evolution or do they recognize self do to us? A bird called the magpie is self aware using the mirror test. It's easy now to look in a mirror and say yep that's me, but it's a million times harder to say that this is just a visual representation of trillions of moving, living, self-replicating entities.
This is the principles that I would like to use in defining self fulfilling prophecy:
Robert Merton's concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy stems from the Thomas theorem, which states that "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences."[2] According to Thomas, people react not only to the situations they are in, but also, and often primarily, to the way they perceive the situations and to the meaning they assign to these perceptions. This causes people to have negative viewpoints. Therefore, their behavior is determined in part by their perception and the meaning they ascribe to the situations they are in, rather than by the situations themselves. Once people convince themselves that a situation really has a certain meaning, regardless of whether it actually does, they will take very real actions in consequence.
So we are just a bunch of self replicating entities that have evolved in to a self recognizing being. Will history keep repeating its "self"?
Oct 27 2012: Reading your question makes me think of the mystery of "emergence", which describes for example how a very complex system such as our consciousness can arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple objects and interactions such as our brain cells or genes. The colloquial expression is "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts", so we are not "just" trillions of moving, living, self-replicating entities. We are that, and what emerged from that.
My view is this: Our self consciousness emerges out of our brains. Although Individual ants cooperate to form a functioning colony, and individual brain cells cooperate to form a functioning brain, those individual actors are not "aware" of the more complex systems that have emerged as a result of their individual actions. And the same goes for the inverse direction: The ant colony and our brains are not aware of their individual parts.
We individual humans, in turn, are just like ants in a colony: Out of our collective actions, a culture and society emerges, that seemingly lives on its own, independent of any individual human. 19th century French sociologist Émile Durkheim was among the first to study society at large, as an emergent entity in its own right, as opposed to studying the individual actors in society. Concepts such as Richard Dawkin's meme seem to me to be a modern extension of this viewpoint.
So I would lay out a progression of emergence from genes, to humans, to societies. I believe each layer is generally entirely unaware of the other, and operates independently from the others in terms of intentions and self-fulfilling prophesies.
Finally, I would say that Darwin's concept of genetic evolution is not a self fulfilling prophesy because genes don't have the capacity for self awareness. Self awareness was something that emerged on a different level.
Oct 28 2012: I can't answer on your reaction by lack of a reply button.
Your last conclusion that I supposedly didn't mean that memory can be an imprint of a chemical process wasn't right.
To me memory is something by which we see in the past like archeologist reads from stones and the biologist reads from the genome and we individuals reads by moving the attention to past moments.
Nov 7 2012: Oh memory is much more and way more vast then realized although the way we have been using to read and store and replay this information is truly simple and amazing all at the same time. It works much like how information is stored on both record and cds. Its truly and amazing thing.Nov 7 2012: Good day Danger,
You are 100% correct in the idea of emergence and "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts". Which is just another way of saying E Pluribus Unum. However now that you are aware that your individual body parts are much like ants and not knowing that they are part of a larger whole. Once you acknowledged their individual existence you will become a higher aware being. Much of this process can be seen as the inward path or meditation. If you need more guidance on this let me know. But know that you know as a higher being that there are other beings in you that might not be aware of your existence. Acknowledge them but come with peace and grace and humility. Tell them you are sorry and that you would never of meant them harm had you been aware that they existed. As individual self beings
Hope this makes sense I struggle with my written word. :)Nov 19 2012: Circular argument:
Any discussion in which one argues the conclusion as a premise; a discussion that makes a conclusion based on material that has already been assumed in the argument.
Communication is a basic and almost standard component of many if not all species, any most can complete it without acknowledgment of the self.
However that is beside the point Humans are simply and factually a lot more then "just a bunch of self-replicating entities that have evolved in to a self recognizing being"
Interestingly wither we are describing laws of the universe or our unified perspective of the universe it is still the nature of our reality. And as for time, it is a relative.
Nov 19 2012: yesNov 8 2012: "This statement is true."
(Even if it's false). It's a statement of absolute truth. It's self-consistent.
"This statement is a lie." - this is a statement of an absolute lie. The statement lies about itself. It's contradicts itself.
References to self are always fascinating. Want to say something "wise"? Say something circular:
"Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment."
"Say what you think, think what you say."
"Do what you love. Love what you do."
"Those who know don't tell. Those who tell don't know."
"Do unto others what you would have them do to you."
Want to say something funny? Say something circular:
"Why do we have noses that run and feet that smell?"
"Why do we drive in parkways and park in driveways?"
Want to reveal the core of the controversy, reveal a lie or a hypocrisy? Apply a statement to the speaker or to itself:
"Protect the rights of the unborn women."
I do believe that cycles and circularity are at the core of our existence. If we don't see a cycle, most likely, we are not looking at the whole. How do these cycles start? They start from self.
Free will (omnipotence) is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Determinism (omniscience) is a self-fulfilling prophecy. They seem to be mutually exclusive, but I think, they are one and the same.
Great question.
Nov 8 2012: Good day Arkady,
Yes, one can not exist with out the other. It can be seen as cause and effect. Or balance......ect. Light can not exist without dark, and dark can not exist with out light.
You can not know joy without knowing pain. But does not mean you need to live in pain.
Nov 8 2012: Re: "...dark can not exist with out light..."
What do you mean? Dark can ONLY exist without light. When there is light, it's not dark...
Perhaps, even better way to say it that "there is no dark" or "dark does not exist". Just like "non-existence" does not exist. Existence IS a "self-fulfilling prophecy", if you want to put it that way :-).
"The road up and the road down is one and the same road" -- Heraclitus
The road is the only thing that exists. "Up" or "down" (direction) exist only in our head. The road itself goes both ways.
Nov 8 2012: If there was never light, and only dark, one could not gain a perspective of other all would be the same... and thats what needs to exist for one to exist. Is the other.
Non-existence and existence, one can not exist without the other. Right so to understand the concept of one you also need to understand the concept of the other. So since everything is of the mind. I will define non-existence as everything before the recognition of self.
So it not like the universe could not think (actually I am pretty sure I know how the universe has stored and used memory since the beginning of time) before much like how a slime mold can "think" but it wasn't until "man" that as beings we were able to self reflect. Which essentially created existence, for everything is of the mind
Let me know if that doesn't make senseNov 8 2012: I get it :-). You are right. Everything is of the mind. Existence and non-existence are concepts. This dichotomy does not exist outside our head. This view, however is not to be confused with solipsism, because it does not deny existence of reality outside our mind.
It doesn't make sense and it cannot. But I get it :-) Those who pride themselves to be reasonable, perhaps, will laugh at us and say that we are talking nonsense. And they will be right too :-)
Nov 9 2012: That is very true, but the best part is that there will always be someone that disagrees its human nature.
One of my best friends who I consider to be intelligent, once tried to argue with me that oil was not toxic unless swallowedNov 8 2012: Hi, Arkady ,
"I do believe that cycles and circularity are at the core of our existence. If we don't see a cycle, most likely, we are not looking at the whole. How do these cycles start? They start from self."
I do love it, but i think, cycles are circling around the core of our existence; the core is Paradox. Paradox 'works' because it reconciles opposites, it presents symmetry which is broken. This implies that a paradox must transcend logic.
Only in silence is the word,
only in dark is light..
There is no dance ... there is only the dance
He who loses his life shall find it
Center is everywhere.
Nov 8 2012: Well, I think, we are "on the same page". There is no way to say it without contradicting ourselves. This is why "those who know don't tell, and those who tell don't know".
Comment deleted
Nov 8 2012: Good Day Mike,
Yes the crux of communication is that when we ascribe labels to certain things, they take in that definition. Instead of realizing that it is just a word. Not an absolute
Beautiful poem by the wayNov 19 2012: I think so. Especially applicable to scientific method. It's not as objective as many people wish to believe..Nov 19 2012: At all times in mans history, man makes reference to a God or gods in order to explain or bring an understanding to concepts that he,(man) did not posse. Eventually, given time, science focused on explaining the mystery of the unexplainable. As knowledge increased over time, so did understanding. What was once attributed to God is now known through science. My belief is, religion was the precursor to science. Religion tried to answer questions that man had, and when the answer was not available it was given over to the realm of God. We must have an evolutionary need to have answers, and God was the provider of those answers. I believe that man created God. We created a divine God to be the keeper of answers to mysteries we did not yet have.
Gods have always existed because the answers to our questions have always existed, we just did not have the understanding at the time.
God provided or became the answer without needing the understanding.
Now rip this argument apart... Please
Nov 20 2012: Yep, So what would you like to have answered?Nov 14 2012: Is everything a self fulfilling prophecy ?
I think, yes.
The distance between the observer and the observed is space; space is generatable from time. Remove time from the picture ( it's illusion ) and observer becomes the observed iow the prophet the prophecy and those who fulfill the prophecy are one.
I don't know how it is happening , but it seems to be what is happening.
Nov 15 2012: Truth is I think I can explain why this is happening but its extremely hard to put in written word
Nov 16 2012: Thanks, Casey, you've said a lot with your question, which is the answer.
I am not sure that ' why ? ' is distinguishable from 'how ? ' in this context, but i have the feeling that 'why ' has something to do with the biblical myth of the fall and ' free will '
Nov 19 2012: It was mans recognition of self that also allowed god to be self reflecting(funny term). From the beginning of time god as embodied in the light or sun. Spent years (although time did not exist) trying to figure out what was going on. And it opposite dark (which is also a god) dark's the one that told truth to adam and eve the truth to eat from the tree of life and to gain knowledge. when god lied and said it would kill them. Which created the fall of man. However the light has been storing information on the dark or celestial body's every since the big bag which is just another example of E pluribus unum. We all know that light stores information see fiber optics. So god used the peaks and valleys (gain perspective). As well as gaps and bumps to record information gained. Much like how a cd or record player stores memory. Once man became self reflective(funny term) god was able to pull that information forward and make sense of it all to man. In only seven days which god does not function in man time because it is arbitrary. Hope this makes senseNov 19 2012: Yes it does :)
But ...
".. when god lied and said it would kill them"
God does not lie , never, it's a kind of impossible condition for ' all probabilities' or 'all and any ' It was a 'worning ; knowledge based on separation , for every thing is what it is and what it is not. Good /evil, dark/light,... me/not me and here the ego was born . Ego creates illusion of separation from the Whole and pushes us into time, where we grow old and die, " thou shalt surely die " Awareness of death means awareness of time, it's ego that dies. " Only he who looses his life shall find it " It's not about death it's about awakening.
It was mans recognition of self that also allowed god to be self reflecting.
Yes, " Time is a theater of god's becoming " To know god , know thyself.
From the beginning of time god as embodied in the light or sun.
"When you are in the light, what will you do? On the day when you were one, you became two. But when you become two, what will you do?"
It's from Gospel of Thomas. Here is the link, if you are not familiar with it already
Thanks for responding !Nov 19 2012: In the time aspect, we are the BECOMING OF BEING, while in the `timeless' aspect, we are the BEING OF BECOMING.
Mitch SMith
Nov 8 2012: Hi Casey,
- +1
As you observe self recognition does not define humans - language defines us.
By the way - there are a lot of magpies where I live - they also have a simple language (about 20 words).
By and large, we are "prophesy machines" we adapt our behaviour through a qualified form of "trial and error". This is the Bayesian learning method that is very apt for neural learning systems.
When dealing with our physical environment, these "prophesies" are continually error-corrected through observation, however, in the social world, such correction is not always immediate - it is noisy and vulnerable to systemic error. Such systemic error can have large affects on resulting human behaviour - this error is the main part of "self-fulfilling prophesy". For instance, If I prophesy that my pet dog will start speaking in Hebrew on Christmas day, it won't happen - my dog is not part of the human error system. If I prophesy that i will win at the horse races next Saturday, then the outcome will be influenced by my attention to the dynamics of the race - both consciously and unconsciously - it has a better chance of being fulfilled.
However, all perception has a margin of noise in it. There are observations of some of the dynamic you call self-fulfilling prophesy" in the physical domain. I suspect that this is a result of not properly understanding the physical domain .. that we will never eliminate that noise component.Nov 8 2012: "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." -- Talmud
I don't reply to your question. I reply to what I think the question is about. How can I know any better?
Blessed are those who perceive what is and not what ought.
Nov 8 2012: beautifulNov 7 2012: Casey,
I would argue your opening statement; recognition of self is not what separates us from other species. Recognition of mortality, and our ability to think on much higher levels makes us different.
According to your argument, my life is an anomaly. I have made many choices in life, but they didn't lead to what I had expected. My ambition was to become an architect because my father was a master carpenter. I ended up as the control room supervisor of a city owned utility managing the operations of the electrical distribution system. When I left home, electricity was the last thing on my mind.
I became a lighting designer for local community theater, not because I had any interest in theater, but because a friend of mine was into theater and I was just looking for something to do. I was encouraged to become a lighting designer by those who saw what potential I had.
I became a licensed pilot, not because I had any interest in learning to fly, but because a coworker was looking for someone to study with and chose me because I had some insurance money after my first wife's death. We both went out looking for a flight school and I booked an introductory flight lesson. I got hooked. The coworker changed his mind and never fulfilled his desire.
I became the aerospace education officer for Civil Air Patrol cadets, not because I had any interest in it, but because I was looking for a flying club and Civil Air Patrol was the only local event that resembled a club that flies. I went with no intention to return because I didn't like the military lifestyle, but I was impressed with the people who ran the program and stayed to see what might become of it. The cadet leader was in the Navy and was being transfered. I was asked if I would oversee the cadet program since I had a lot of patience with kids. I found their aerospace manuals easy to follow and informative so I gave it a try. In time it grew on me.
Nov 8 2012: Sounds like a Forrest Gump story :-). Sounds like my life too - not in details, but in the way we made our decisions. I think, that's how most of us live our lives. We encounter what seems like "random" events, "random" circumstances, "random" people. They catch onto some driving force within us, our past "random" experiences, our passion. And the passion grows and keeps feeding on itself, adding new experiences of the same kind to our life. I think, this is how hurricanes form, how manias and addictions develop. I also think, the same process is at the core of stock market, business, and economy in general. I also believe that the very same process was responsible for creation of the universe and life.
Nov 8 2012: Good Day Arkady,
Its living in the moment, instead of behind a wall of protection that many people have built up in front of them. Which is not wrong but its not healthy either.
Nov 8 2012: "All we know is just another brick in the wall." -- Pink Floyd
All past experiences and education create prejudice that stand in the way of perceiving things as they are or "live in the moment" as you put it.
"You must unlearn what you have learned." -- Yoda.Nov 11 2012: Casey sorry for coming up here to respond to your post way below, but as you know there is no reply button.
You are absolutely right about TIME. God is inside time and space but is not part of it, or limited by it. Time and space are limits of the material world.
--" "God was the Soul, Jesus was the body, making them One."
If this statement is true and we are also sons and daughters of god as was Jesus. Then this statement would also have to be true, "god is the soul, we are the body(physical reality), making god and us one" "--
Not quite. We are not literally sons and daughters of God, but Jesus was. Mary was 'overshadowed' by the Holy Spirit. God caused her conception and birth, not Joseph. And, yes, God could be seen as the Soul of this physical universe (and heaven the spirit).
Jesus' birth was prophesied from the beginning in Genesis. If enough of those are read, we should realize that Jesus is God on earth. Because Christians believe in three Gods, that does not really make Jesus Divine, which He (His Soul) was from His birth.
If we separate God and Jesus we can come to the wrong conclusion that Jesus was here to make His angry Father happy. That is totally wrong.
His Soul could make Him Divine through a long process of fighting evil throughout His whole life.
The best we can do is become a celestial angel through a similar process (on our finite human level) throughout our life in this same world, again, by fighting evil and then doing good.
At the end of your comment we seem to be saying the same thing. Following God in freedom (by using our free will) should be seen as total freedom. Those that like evil will say that God is trying to force us.. and take our freedom away (to do evil). That is a wrong impression. No one is forced to rob a bank or hate someone. It is always our choice.
But doing good, for the right reason, is total freedom.
The Swedenborgian approach to God and Jesus may help
Roy Bourque
Nov 8 2012: Arkady,
- +2
I was trained in nuclear physics. When you break everything down to its lowest form, it all becomes the same. How it evolves is similar to what you describe. Quantum fields become subatomic particles, which become atomic elements, which become molecular compounds, which become...
They are all various levels all built on top of each other. They set the wheels of creativity in motion. They seem chaotic, and yet there is an order to them. We see the events as random, yet that is because we see only a small piece of a greater picture. It's like weather patterns. The more you understand the inputs, the more you can predict the result. Our lives are like trying to see a hurricane from the perspective of a single raindrop. We know where we've been, but we don't know all the factors that created the journey. We say it is by our own choice, but we only play the cards we are dealt. We seldom understand that we are not the dealer. The trick is to play the cards in a manner that will lead to the greatest good.
Nov 8 2012: Re: "They seem chaotic, and yet there is an order to them."
CHAOS - "Complete disorder and confusion."
It's interesting that there is a "chaos theory" which studies patterns and regularity arising from chaos. It's also interesting that this theory is applicable to nearly every field of knowledge - meteorology, economy, physics, astronomy, psychology, psychiatry, biology, aerodynamics, etc. It's interesting how completely random initial conditions develop in a very predictable and structured way.
Humans like to find causes for everything. But when we get to the bottom of things, we find circularity: "If God created the universe, then who created God?" It's a silly argument that goes nowhere. Existence seems to cause itself. Time and space loose meaning without matter. So, the question, what existed "before" the universe appeared is meaningless. Time, space, and matter must have appeared simultaneously. What about God? I think, God IS existence itself. God can be metaphorically viewed as the force that creates order out of chaos.
Determinism and free will, omniscience and omnipotence, chaos and order seem to be opposites, but they appear to be two sides of the same coin. When everything goes according to God's will, and God knows it, why would he want to change anything? God's "free will" seems to be predetermined by himself.Nov 8 2012: Arkady,
I believe that learning to control ourselves is the key to understanding religion. This is the spiritual path of Eastern philosophy, which would lead from the lower subconscious (the animal passions from which we evolved) to the upper subconscious or Christ (communion with the power through which the universe became manifest). It is this communion that allows us to understand where the flow goes, as you say.
I have found the teachings of Eastern philosophy throughout the Judeo-Christian tradition, but nowhere in the Christian bible is it explained. A few examples;
The Catholic Church talks of communion, but it doesn't differentiate between Jesus the man, and "the Christ" to which Jesus alluded to. Jesus call us to understand. It wasn't himself that he wanted us to believe in, it was in what he represented.
The book of Exodus explains the arrangement of the tabernacle which contained the Holy of Holies. Only the arrangement is given, but no explanation as to why such an arrangement. Eastern philosophy explains the arrangement and what it means. The Holy of Holies is spiritual understanding (or the Christ), the veil in front of it being that which separates us from being able to understand. Only through meditation and prayer (or contemplation) could we find the path that leads beyond the veil.
Some myths speak on similar lines. In these myths, it would require the slaying of the dragon to reach the treasure sought after (often synonymous with the Holy Grail). The dragon is the beast within (the animal which is still part of our psychological makeup) that must be overcome to see what lies beyond. Learning to control self was the first step of the spiritual journey. It all means the same thing but in different terms. In the gospels, it was Satan that Jesus had to overcome before he could begin his ministry. Revelation speaks of Satan as the dragon, the serpent, and the devil. They are all one and the same.
Nov 9 2012: Hello Roy,
Just some points about the Tabernacle. It is now revealed in Jesus' Second Coming that this construct is a picture of our human, spiritual environment as it works, or can work.
There are those that don't even go in and so stay natural. When we do enter we have two sections we can proceed into, the spiritual and the celestial. Each entrance is based on a decision we make in freedom and with rationality.
In this book about the Tabernacle are countless references to Genesis and other places which are used to explain the human condition of free will and the reason for having that.
Chapter 17 is all about the veils. When the Lord talks about knocking on our door, this is the partition He is talking about for us to open to go to the next stage.Nov 9 2012: Roy, I find holy texts fascinating. I also think that religion is about controlling self and finding evil within ourselves. Unfortunately, it is often used to control others and finding evil within others. This is like weeding the gardens of your neighbors without asking them. When we do that, we neglect our own garden.
Of course, when Genesis is taken as a story of literal creation of the universe, it fails basic reality checks. However, if taken as metaphoric description of our spiritual selves, it makes a lot of sense. I would say, "literalism" is a figure of speech. Our language is symbolic by nature.
I also find the name of the Lord "YHWH", "I AM" or "I WILL BE" very symbolic. It is a reference to our self. Some people even find that the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) spelled vertically with Hebrew letters is a pictogram of a human being.
Whereas, the Jesus (Yahshua) spelled vertically with Hebrew letters YHSWH is a pictogram of a human being with a heart.
I'm not sure if this symbolism was meant to be there or if this is someone trying to find more meaning than there is.Nov 9 2012: Roy, I do believe that self-control is a part religion, but the core to eastern spirituality, involves achieving moksha (Hinduism) or nirvana (Buddism) for the majority of eastern religions - This is an attempt to be like God (or achieve His state) through prayer, meditation, physical self-control, etc.
This is completely opposite to a Judeo-Christian worldview. In both Judaism and Christianity, the goal isn't about becoming like God (which is a tenant of a New Age philosophy), it's about having a relationship with God.
For Judaism this relationship was governed (and still is today) through the Law, the Tabernacle (where God's presence resided) and blood sacrifice for the atonement for sin. For Christianity, the aforementioned conditions was dealt with through God coming to earth in the form of Jesus Christ as 100% God and 100% man to deal with the repercussion of sin, which is death, the subsequent Law and required atonement.
When Jesus lived a sinless life and was put to death, the devil had no legal right to Him, so he took His life back at the resurrection and is alive eternally. Now all those (Jew and non-Jew) who believe in Jesus now have covenant relationship with God through Him, and with that comes purpose and blessing to a broken world.
Answering Arkady's point on a literal Genesis - if Genesis isn't a literal creation, then the actual fall of man and separation from God due to our sinful nature, which took place in the garden of Eden, didn't happen, and if that didn't happen then the need for Jesus bridging the gap between mankind and God wouldn't be needed, which unhinges the whole of Christianity.
The testament to Jesus' power through faith in Him makes Him very real, therefore making Genesis very literal. What I can say is that facts of this world can't speak for themselves, but the scientific framework and presuppositions it stands on, interprets the facts. I challenge you to look at www.answersingenesis.com for a biblical worldview.Nov 10 2012: @Marvin
I'm not sure what is meant by "very real" or "very literal"... I have problem with terms like "true believer" or "true atheist", "literal interpretation", or "natural". There is no meaning in these words.
As I said, "literal interpretation" is a figure of speech. If we want to follow NT to the letter, we need to cut off our hands, pluck our eyes, and make ourselves eunuchs for the sake of kingdom of God :-).Nov 10 2012: Hi Marvin, in my view, Christianity is lost because of taking Genesis, etc. literally. Text taken literally has no other level of meaning, and it is that other/higher meaning which makes it the Word of God.
--"if Genesis isn't a literal creation, then the actual fall of man and separation from God due to our sinful nature, which took place in the garden of Eden, didn't happen, and if that didn't happen then the need for Jesus bridging the gap between mankind and God wouldn't be needed, which unhinges the whole of Christianity."--
The first 10.5 chapters of Genesis were copied by Mozes from earlier Revelations and sacred text. These were written by people that knew spiritual reality and expressed them through earthly stories.
Just because it did not happen in 7 days, does not mean God did not create the universe. The Creation Story has nothing to do with THAT creation. Who cares when or how long the creation of this universe took?? Have you ever applied that 7-day story into your life, as to how to live, what to do etc.?? Except maybe get involved in an argument about the existence of God?
As is now explained in the Second Coming (hold on, don't fall off your chair :) that story is the creation of a spiritual person, from a natural (spiritually void) person. Each day is a stage which could take many years. But finally God can take a 'day' off because the person no longer has to be protected and guided away from evil.
The first chapter of Genesis is, word for word, explained (spiritually) in this first volume. As Philip said to his brother Nathanael "Come and see"
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/Arcana%20Coelestia%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1Nov 13 2012: Hello Marvin,
"The testament to Jesus' power through faith in Him makes Him very real, therefore making Genesis very literal."
If this is true which I believe it to be true, then also this statement must be true. Anything that man has had faith in or belief of being real must also make said thing real. I will explain further and I hope it makes sense. So if everything is of the mind and man creates his reality, if at anytime enough (see 100 monkey theory) man worshiped or believed something to existed, from fiction to, mythology, to any form of religion then that thing is also true and also existed. Because of mans faith in said thingNov 8 2012: Ardady,
I believe that God is the chaos of the primordial soup of quantum physics that is destined to become ordered. It fills the universe. It is everywhere and invisible. When we learn to understand it and follow its rules, then we see progress. When we determine to defy its principles, it leads to consequences. That is what is meant to follow God or not. The laws of nature can't be broken. But they can be utilized in ways that lead to greater things.Nov 9 2012: Arkady thanks so much for this insight of the name YHWH etc. What you said seems to fit perfectly with how we see God and Jesus.
God is the only and perfect Human. We are just images and likenesses, depending on how 'human' we make ourselves.
Jesus was God's love 'embodied' on this planet. The only way God could control and change the power of evil in this world (and not hurt anyone except Himself) was by coming down to the level of evil. God was the Soul, Jesus was the body, making them One.
It is obvious, when we look around us, that Jesus did not take our evil away. He levelled the 'playing field.' IOW restored our free will.
--"I'm not sure if this symbolism was meant to be there or if this is someone trying to find more meaning than there is"--
As finite beings we will never find or discover the total meaning of Revelation. There is so much 'room' between our truth and Divine Truth that we'll never go the distance :) We can only go by our interpretation and hope for the best. I think what we have through Swedenborg is only the tip of the tip of . . . of the iceberg.
One image of infinity could be the amount of grains of sand that are not the same.
Nov 10 2012: Good day Adriaan,
"Just because it did not happen in 7 days, does not mean God did not create the universe"
What if I can explain in simple terms, but not simply since I have a hard time with my written word, on how god could create the observable universe as well as explain how it was also created by science using fractal coding, quantum physics, and "time" vs "gods time". For god time did not and does not exist. Time is a manmade concept based on false assumptions and arbitrary units of measurements. Man created time by its rotation around the sun. We then broke it down even more by asserting that we rotate around the sun in a circle instead of an ellipse. Which is how all celestial object rotate around there sun. We can thank Kepler for this. Our existence can not and would not work without both science and religion. Also When god was creating the universe remember we still thought for a very long time afterwards that it was the sun that rotated around the earth.
"God was the Soul, Jesus was the body, making them One."
If this statement is true and we are also sons and daughters of god as was Jesus. Then this statement would also have to be true, "god is the soul, we are the body(physical reality), making god and us one"
"we are all predestined for heaven, if it were up to God. But it is not, it is up to us, determined by, again, what we choose to love in freedom."
I am sorry this is simply not true completely; we create our concepts of heaven and hell here on earth. One could not understand the concept of either heaven or hell without understanding the concept of the other. And in that way one could choose to live in heaven and one could choose (use loosely here) their own personal hell lived out here on earth. If god did not give us free will of choice we would reject god simply because no free being wants to be enslaved. And we would be enslaved to gods will. The best part is that that god does not want to be our author; he wants us to live our lives.Nov 10 2012: "No one is, or ever has been born to go to hell."
Now this I agree with absolutely however it is still personal choice. This is also way Jesus can down as the sacrificial lamb. Jesus came to stop men from worshiping god by sacrificing animals and man/women in god's name. This did not show god's grace this should man's arrogates.Nov 9 2012: Arkady,
I believe that each soul was to derive meaning from religion according to their own walk on the spiritual path. I don't believe that there is only one meaning or that people find meaning that was not intended to be there. What one finds may not be intended for anyone else, but may be intended for the one finding it.
As you have said, people use religion to control others and to find evil within others. Jesus spoke directly against this when he warned the people not to look for the mote in your neighbor's eye when you have a beam in your own. It is one of the great failures of religion.Nov 8 2012: Good day Roy,
It doesn't sound like your life is anomaly, it sounds like you live in the moment and let life direct your decisions instead of having blinders on to the world that is around you. Going with the flow is always better then trying to fit in a box.
Nov 8 2012: Casey,
I do see myself as living in the moment. I choose to be a participant and not a spectator. Often I need a starting point and then I go with the flow.
I see some people walking around like stray dogs. I often wonder whether they are capable of bettering their lives, or if they are simply less evolved in mind and spirit? Are we who we are because we were destined to be, or is it by choice? I think it's a little of both.
Nov 8 2012: Good day Roy,
Yeah I agree, It is a little of both. I would suggest that the path that gets us to the lessons we need to learn are "predetermined" (use loosely). This can be seen as chaos theory, or cause and effect. However once we get to that lesson, then personal choice steps. Which can be seen as free will. Each individuals personal choice can lead to positive reactions or negative reactions. Its then our choice to learn from that lesson and what we choose to learn is what helps us get to the next lesson and then to our next personal choice.Nov 8 2012: Controlling our internal reactions to external events and perception of external things, and also our internal desires is the key to controlling the world outside ourselves. Will power is, mostly, about controlling ourselves. I'm terrible at that.
Understanding where the flow goes is necessary to "go with the flow". Otherwise, we may unknowingly go against the flow or "kick against the pricks", as the Bible puts it, only hurting ourselves. Or we may be carried somewhere we don't want to be.Nov 9 2012: In our church we reject any notion of us being predestined to anything. Creation is for the reason to create a heaven from the human race and 'anywhere' we go depends on what we have decided to make our ruling love.
We could say, however, that we are all predestined for heaven, if it were up to God. But it is not, it is up to us, determined by, again, what we choose to love in freedom.
No one is, or ever has been born to go to hell.
This article is all about what would happen if we had no free will.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Freedom_No.pdfOct 31 2012: Am I the only guy here who never understands Casey's posts?
To me his posts are so incosistent and he jumps from one topic on the next leaving holes in between the size of galaxies.
Next to that many of the words are shorthanded / spelled wrong (I guess... at least... that's the only way I can make sense of it).
For example with the line: But then you need to ask well do they recognize self do to our experiments and what we have defined as self recognition or is it innately in them?
Does he mean: 'You could ask yourself: "do they recognize themselves due to our experiment or did we define recognition of onesself based upon our observations?".' (btw to me the later part of my line sounds really strange)
I can't even begin to guess what the next line means: "So is it that we recognize self because of them through evolution or do they recognize self do to us?"
I'm guessing that the last do should be due but the line still is a grand new level of "wtf's he talking about?".
And I seem to find a hint in there that he is trying to summarize his above line in even worse english than before.
But all in all to answer is final question "So we are just a bunch of self replicating entities that have evolved in to a self recognizing being." which, I know, is missing the '?' at the end....
Yes we each are a highly dependant system of very symbiotic self replicating entities.
Or in plain english: Yes we are a bunch of cells that work together.
How does that have ANYTHING to do with evolution or self fulfilling prophecy??
You have lost me once again Casey... Like your concept of math... It seems like history is reapeating it's "self"?
Nov 3 2012: I'm not sure whether I understand Casey's posts, but so far, I'm 2/2 in terms of having his questions lead me to some interesting thinking.
Nov 4 2012: well raising questions / giving rise to thought are nice attributes.
However it gets so hard to discuss something when the start isn't clear. People will just interpret it in multiple ways which will lead to many different (non related) comments.
You can assume the above post of mine to be a plea for a re-writing of the origional post (Casey's post) into a less ambiguous and more well defined question.
Nov 7 2012: I will work on this for you, Richard, and for everyone, I am working on finding someone who can edit my written word.
Once again thank you for your patienceNov 7 2012: Good day Richard,
It is very hard for me to grasp my thoughts and then put them on page you are correct that my english is broken and that is 100% my fault and or the cookie cutter system that is american education. I never took school seriously looking back I was bored. At the time I would never never never thought I was bored because of me being smarter then the others and I still do not feel this way. Simple when I was a kid I just wanted to have fun and school was stopping me from doing that, I have talk with my grandma and she has offered to school me in english. (hope she doesn't bust out the ruler) However if I had to guess with our conversations you may have wanted to do that a couple times to me :). And I thank you for your patience.
Nov 7 2012: Hi Casey,
Well the utmost important thing which you have to always abide by in an internet discussion is that text cannot be ambiguous (at least the meaning has to be 100% clear from the context when words are ambiguous).
So what I always do when I post things is that I re-read them after having a small break. For instance when I start a conversation on here... I usualy first write it in some word editor (which has spelling control) and then I just re-read it once before I post it and I rewrite all lines that can be read in different ways.
For instance the question in your post "Recognition of self right?" (especially due to the line-break in between which is put there by ted) could very easily be read like "Recognition of self-right?". Which then makes the question something completely different as right would suddenly indicate that it has to do with a form of 'law' (or fairness.. as in the way of "righteous").
Also something which I find very usefull is that whenever you 'further explain' something in the same line that you ,'s to indicate where which area ends. When ,'s are not really obvious use (). In general it's best to use ,'s when you can keep on reading.
This could be used in the line "But then you need to ask well do they recognize self do to our experiments and what we have defined as self recognition or is it innately in them?"
Like: But then you need to ask "well do they recognize self, do to our experiments and what we have defined as self recognition, or is it innately in them?"
Usually if you re-read something as if someone else wrote it you will notice these things... like "what does this word refer to" or "these 2 words don't go together" or similar things.
Just use different words or add ,'s or () when you feel something is not clear.... it's the meaning of what you're trying to say that is important... not the way you say it. However how you say it must make sure that the other person gets the meaning.
Nov 8 2012: Yeah I should "proof" my thoughts before hitting submit. I will work on thisOct 29 2012: I agree that our world view influences our behaviour, actions, and choices. I disagree that accepting evolution automatically traps us to repeat history more than any unstated alternatives I can think of.
Are you proposing that if we accept we are evolved multi-cellular beings then this will lead to negative outcomes? This seems like a false dichotomy. Why would you think that?
I note for most of history and probably prehistory the majority of homo sapiens were not aware we evolved. The history you are referring to is mostly the results of theists or polytheists.
In your final sentences you ask are we "just" evolved multi-cellular self aware beings, doomed to repeat history. Some theists seem to think it is either believe in some gods or revert to some nihilistic meaningless barbaric life. This is a False dichotomy.
Firstly, accepting that we evolved does not stop us from considering what improves the human condition. In fact it frees us from the worst excesses of backwards bronze and iron religious moralities. No need to give sexist, racist, tribal, homophobic , anti contraception religious dogmas special consideration.
Secondly, accepting what the evidence indicates, that we evolved, does not diminish our humanity, it does not eliminate our understanding that conscious beings can suffer or thrive. We have the most amazing minds and deep experience we know of. We can question, and learn, and communicate and build like no other species.
Thirdly, things have actually improved. I would argue part of this improvement relates to the establishment of secular democracies, modern human rights etc. We had the enlightenment. We have science helping us better understand ourselves and the universe.
Yes we are still caught between instinct and reason, but in many places life has improved, even compared to a few centuries, or decades ago, depending where you live.
We have a long way to go, but have come further than you might think.
Nov 7 2012: Good day Obey,
Actually I am suggesting the opposite if we acknowledge that we are evolved multi-cellular beings we would become more and for lack of a better word that drives the point home we would become more enlightened. By become higher aware beings.
If we realize that we are "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts", as well as E Pluribus Unum. And except these as truths whether you believe it or not. And acknowledge that we are just one small part of a greater system and yet at the same time that greater system. You can come to the understanding that we are all one. For the mind makes it real and everything including us is of the mind. We need to realize that our science takes just as much faith as religion/spirit does. And maybe even more so because with science we have all came to and except that no theory will ever be correct except that all theory's are correct, because the mind makes it real. And someone else mind makes it "not real" or not truth. And we subscribe to arbitrary units of measurements that we call conventions. Because if we didn't all agree to those conventions then none.....I mean none of this thing we call life would make any sense. But science needs to man up and remember that almost all knowledge gain has been based on arbitrary units of per-assumed assumptions.
sorry if this does not make sense my thoughts are hard to express via written word.Oct 26 2012: I've a lot of difficulty to understand what this is about.
I see at least three questions and little coherence between them.
Recognition of the self. right or wrong? I would think, wrong.
As you say, many species can do that but only human beings converse with speech.
To use speech one has to wrap the world in symbols first to be able to communicate these symbols that to each represent something somewhat different.
Oct 26 2012: Yeah and I promise you I don't have this fully figured out either which is why I need some other perspectives and some good devil's advocates.
Which recognition of self are you referring to? So the cells/bacteria in our body's are basically saying this is me and the it divides and create a group of me's or I's. As well as developed a lexicon to talk to all of it I's but also they have a universal lexicon that can communicate between different groups of cells and bacteria as well as able to communicate on a whole. This is all happening in our bodies which is truly amazing! So we have a bunch of single celled organisms that are self replicating, but also have there own language or lexicon, as well as have a universal lexicon to be able to communicate as a whole and function as a whole. So if we are just a bunch of self replicating entities that have evolved into a self recognizing being. What does this imply. I personally want to make the leap to religion, and point to the beliefs of the mormon church. As also being a self fulfilling prophecy. Which I guess most religions are? I am sure this makes even less sense now. I am trying to figure out this too. but the core concept make sense. Sorry I also do not want to to feel that I am attacking your beliefs or anyone's. Because if you do see that the definition for self fulfilling prophecy is correct all beliefs are equally real.
Check out this video
Oct 27 2012: My take is that human beings are one of the many species that have self recognition.
Self awareness you find with all species as you reckon that to survive there has to be a sense of the interior configuration and about the interaction with the environment whether knowingly or not.
To have a knowing of this implies that there has to be a memory of past events that can be highlighted to see that old self and to compare the actual image of self with that one stored in memory.
Unicellular beings communicate, all species communicate. Multi cellular organisms are built from forms of unicellular organisms that forms an operating system that communicates in a multiple fashion.
Human beings are defined by the use of speech. With speech they first have to encode the world that they find in memory. They know by continuous comparison of actuality with memory. All that is fixed they call knowledge. What is actual they call experience. Knowledge can become stories as we put meaning and/or emotions to it. Reading from memory we bring those meanings and emotions into the present which will color the actual events we experience and compare.
Religion is feeding stories into memory.
Oct 27 2012: Certainly speech is just one example of communications in general. Whales communicate through their songs which we recognize as being an constantly evolving social conversation.
I have observed crows and magpies conversing amongst family members in a low converstaion that is different from their excited calls.
Our speech is actually quit poor in comparison to whale speak, but then, I guess evolution didn't have much to start with either.Oct 27 2012: I don't think unicellular beings would pass the mirror test! I interpreted the concept of self-awareness in the context of the mirror test, leading to an entirely different conclusion.
Given your definition though, I would take issue with your assertion that "To have a knowing of this implies that there has to be a memory of past events..." If a single cell organism moves towards food, I don't think it does so because it has a memory of food. I believe such movement is built into its design and structure.
I suppose I might agree with the idea that evolution remembers good design choices by tending to let only the fittest survive, which means that their structures will be "remembered" by virtue of being replicated, but I don't think that's what you meant by memory.Nov 5 2012: I would argue that if humans truly recognized their own selves, they would not be so ready to destroy their fellow man. It is the arrogance of "I am better that you" that causes failures. It is simply false. You may have a different background and education but take an MBA and drop him in the Amazon with a bunch of Yano-Mami and see how self aware he is. Totally different circumstances can absolutely rock your world sufficiently to actually cause you to question your own self awareness. Another example: My own recent loss of use of my legs due to MS. Suddenly this big, strong outdoorsman is required by disease to remain in air conditioned conditions even when everyone else is freezing. Who and what I thought I was has come into question. What was real and what was merely a mistaken perception about myself and my abilities? How has change altered those perceptions, not only in my own awareness but in the awareness of others by whom I am surrounded? Which is the more accurate and better perception of self? And who, has the balls to state that they have for certain identified everything that IS self awareness? Am I making more sense than Casey?Nov 7 2012: @ Gordon, I would would suggest that DNA is a very complex yet simple form of communication.
@ Danger Unicellular being might not pass the mirror test but the most certainly know the difference between self and other.
This is just one example of higher intelligent's with out a "brain"
I would suggest the this being would also have to be self aware to know how to navigate its self through a maze. Also this is just one example.
@ Michael you are 100% correct on your assertions, those points are exactly the questions you should be asking your self. I would even take it farther and say that, if the mind makes it real then it is real. Making everything man has ever thought that into a self fulfilling prophecy. Because not matter what mental state you are in the mind makes it real. And who is to say that my reality is more "real" the your reality. You could interchange perspective for this as well.Oct 31 2012: it seems like I am in good company... I never understand Casey either :(


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School of Behavioral and Social Sciences
Faculty Bio
Stacey Borasky, PhD
Assistant Professor and Chair; Social Work
Phone: 512-448-8677
- EdD in Curriculum and Instruction at Tennessee State University, Nashville, Tennessee, 2002
- MSW at West Virginia University, Morgantown, West Virginia, 1989
- BSW at Shepherd College, Shepherdstown, West Virginia, 1987
Why I Teach
I believe in cultivating a dynamic classroom environment where students actively engage in discussion, demonstrate their knowledge and competence, and show their ability to respect ideas and opinions of others. The St. Edward's University emphasis on social justice and cultivating a global perspective is also central to my teaching.
Nothing is more rewarding than seeing students grow and develop. I love mentoring students in the classroom and through one-on-one advising. Teaching allows me to give the best I have from my own education and experience to those that are the future of my profession.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
What on earth is that?
It's the Can-Am Spyder RT, made by the excellently named Bombardier Recreational Products. It's a sort of three-wheeled, mutant trike that lurks between 'full-blown touring bike' and 'quad'. It's also fully customisable too, with many of these being sold to the disabled. There's a charming story about former Royal Marine Commando Joe Townsend, who's got a custom Spyder RS-S that features special clips for his prosthetic legs.
First drive: Can-Am Spyder RT
Three-wheeled mutant trike gets new engine, shocks, 'box and comfort. We drive/ride it
What on earth is that?
Who on earth is Bombardier Recreational Products?
A Canadian company that traces its roots back some 70 years, and has a history of making excellent Top Gear-esque playthings. It pioneered the snowmobile market, creating the 'Ski-Doo' (it was apparently supposed to be 'Ski-Dog', but a printing mishap decided otherwise) way back in the 1950s, and has since built this Can-Am brand of bike-trike things, sailboats, and ATVs (small off-roaders). Seriously, walk into a BRP showroom and we defy you not to immediately want to buy everything.
Tell me about this Spyder RT.
Of the three Can-Am Spyders available, the RT is the most comfort-orientated, suitable for long trips across the country or continent in the hands of the mildly masochistic. For 2014, the RT gets a new Rotax 1330 ACE engine, which uses three inline cylinders to produce 115bhp and 96lb ft of torque.
There's a new six-speed transmission too, featuring automatic down-shifting and reverse situated on the left of the handlebar, there's a new set of SACHS shocks with variable damping, and a new comfort seat too. Plus, the nose, if you can call it that, has been redesigned.
Is it fast?
Considering it weighs 459kg, that engine is plenty peppy. It'll do 0-60mph in a smidge over 4.5 seconds and is limited to 125mph. We're told it'll also run a quarter mile in just under 13 seconds.
What's it like to drive?
Weird. But good weird. You don't need a bike license, just a couple of hours of orientation to get used to the controls. Then you can literally jump on and ride off.
You twist the throttle with your right hand just like a bike, but there's a brake hovering just ahead of your right foot, and a shift paddle on the left handle. Twist, and it unleashes a torrent of low-down power that, if you're a bike rookie, will spear you off down the road and into something painful without warning.
Same goes for corners. The response is immediate, and those unaccustomed to riding bikes will find judging the throttle input and steering angle correctly a bit of a puzzle at first. If it's your first time, you will turn cautiously, realise its not enough, turn more (too much), realise you're slowing, twist the throttle and then fly around the corner at light speed. And then into something painful without warning.
But once settled - and as we say it only takes a couple of hours - it's easy to find a canter that suits, and the one big thing remains constant throughout: it's really, really comfortable. Riding over potholes, bumps, coarse road surfaces, whatever - nothing fazes the Spyder RT at all, and that's thanks to its new found damping.
It's fast, sure, and that engine does sound great when you decide to make haste, but the RT is actually more suited to just pootling around town. Plus it's got built in sat nav, an iPod connection, loads of storage space, and heated handgrips for you and your pillion. Get ready to become intimate with whoever this is.
Saying that, the original caveat we had when we first drove the Can-Am Spyder remains: you get none of the benefits of a car and all the disadvantages of a bike. It's too wide to weave in between traffic, and there's no roof for when it rains.
But it looks like such fun!
It is fun. Lots of fun. Reserved as a PlayThing, the RT is enormously entertaining, though you might tire of the constant attention it gets on the road. In the summer, you could easily put a few hundred miles under your belt without hassle, though our test RT did weigh in at a frankly staggering £27,000, which is a lot of money for a trike.
Our advice would be to plump for the cheaper Spyder RS for £15k if you really must have one: it's marginally quicker, the throttle is livelier, the brake pedal falls under your foot easier, it looks cooler (get one in black and it's a Batbike) and the whole structure is tauter for more oh-god-its-fast moments.


text:
Book your room at Locanda delle Corse
Standard Double or Twin RoomMax Occupancy: 2 guests (up to 1 infant)
Junior SuiteMax Occupancy: 3 guests (up to 1 infant)
SuiteMax Occupancy: 2 guests (up to 1 infant)
Get an overview of this hotelRome townhouse accommodation in Cinecitta with free breakfast and free valet parking
Located in Cinecitta, this townhouse accommodation is within 1 mi (2 km) of Ippodromo Capannelle and Villa dei Quintili. Appia Antica Regional Park and Park of the Aqueducts are also within 3 mi (5 km).
Property Features
Along with a restaurant, this smoke-free townhouse accommodation has a bar/lounge and a coffee shop/café. Free continental breakfast, free WiFi in public areas, and free valet parking are also provided. Additionally, a business center, a meeting room, and dry cleaning are onsite.
Room Amenities
All 12 soundproofed rooms provide free WiFi, free wired Internet, and sofa beds. Guests will appreciate conveniences like living rooms and sitting areas, while LCD TVs with digital channels and first-run movies provide a bit of entertainment.Information missing or incorrect? Tell us!
Hotel Amenities
Hotel Amenities
Dining options at the townhouse accommodation include a restaurant and a coffee shop/café. A bar/lounge is on site where guests can unwind with a drink. Guests can enjoy a complimentary breakfast each morning. Public areas are equipped with complimentary high-speed wireless Internet access.
Business-related amenities consist of a business center and a meeting room. This Rome townhouse accommodation also offers multilingual staff, a garden, and complimentary newspapers in the lobby. For a surcharge, a roundtrip airport shuttle (available on request) is offered to guests. Onsite valet parking is complimentary.
Locanda delle Corse is a smoke-free property.
- Free valet parking
- Luggage storage
- Free long-term parking
- Free RV, bus, truck parking
- Smoke-free property
- Porter/bellhop
- Coffee shop or café
- Airport transportation (surcharge)
- Total number of rooms - 12
- Number of floors - 2
- Business center
- Free newspapers in lobby
- Free breakfast
- Dry cleaning/laundry service
- Express check-in
- Express check-out
- Bar/lounge
- 24-hour front desk
- Garden
- One meeting room
- Laundry facilities
- Multilingual staff
- Restaurant
- Number of buildings/towers - 1
- Free WiFi
Family Friendly Amenities
- Separate living room
- Free Wi-Fi
- Rollaway/extra beds available
- Soundproofed rooms
- Laundry facilities
- Sofa bed
Available in all rooms: Free WiFi , Free wired high-speed Internet
Available in some public areas: Free WiFi
Free long-term parking, Free valet parking, Free RV, bus, truck parking
Room Amenities
- Blackout drapes/curtains
- Shower only
- Free wired high-speed Internet
- First-run movies
- Individually furnished
- Individually decorated
- Rainfall showerhead
- Cribs/infant beds (surcharge)
- Sofa bed size
- Separate living room
- Daily housekeeping
- Private bathroom
- Free toiletries
- Pay movies
- Premium TV channels
- Hypo-allergenic bedding available
- Separate sitting area
- Climate control
- Air conditioning
- Phone
- Minibar
- Coffee/tea maker
- Hair dryer
- Bidet
- In-room massage available
- Desk
- Sofa bed
- Rollaway/extra beds available
- Digital TV service
- Soundproofed rooms
- Room service (limited hours)
- Free WiFi
Where to Eat
A complimentary continental breakfast is served each morning between 7:30 AM and 10 AM.
Trattoria delle Corse - Overlooking the garden, this restaurant specializes in regional cuisine and serves breakfast, lunch, dinner, and light fare. Guests can enjoy drinks at the bar. Happy hour is offered.
Room service (during limited hours) is available.
Nearby Things to Do
The recreational activities listed below are available either on site or nearby; fees may apply.
- Scooter/moped rentals nearby
- Mountain biking nearby
- Hiking/biking trails nearby
- Ecotours nearby
- Golf lessons available nearby
- Golfing nearby
- Bicycle rentals nearby
To make requests for specific accessibility needs, complete the "Special or Accessibility Requests" section of "Trip Preferences" when you book your hotel.
- Accessible path of travel
- Accessible bathroom
- Accessible parking
- In-room accessibility
Hotel Policies
Check-in time ends at 11 PM
Check-in time starts at 2 PM
Check-out time is 11 AM
Payment types
Children and extra beds
- Children are welcome.
- Kids stay free! Children under 6 years old stay free when using existing bedding.
- Rollaway/extra beds are available for EUR 20 per night.
- Cribs (infant beds) are available for EUR 10 per night.
Pets allowed
You need to know
Extra-person charges may apply and vary depending on hotel policy.
Government-issued photo identification and a credit card or cash deposit are required at check-in for incidental charges.
Special requests are subject to availability upon check-in and may incur additional charges. Special requests cannot be guaranteed.
No elevators
- A tax is imposed by the city: EUR 3 per person, per night, up to 10 nights. This tax does not apply to children under 10 years of age.
- Airport shuttle fee: EUR 15-45 per vehicle (roundtrip)
- Pet fee: EUR 20 per pet, per stay
- Crib (infant bed) fee: EUR 10 per night
- Rollaway bed fee: EUR 20 per night
We should mention
Cash transactions at this property cannot exceed EUR 999.99, due to national regulations. For further details, please contact the property using information in the booking confirmation. This property offers transfers from the airport (surcharges may apply). Guests must contact the property with arrival details before travel, using the contact information on the booking confirmation. Reservations are required for massage services. Reservations can be made by contacting the townhouse accommodation prior to arrival, using the contact information on the booking confirmation. Children 6 years old and younger stay free when occupying the parent or guardian's room, using existing bedding. Guests can arrange to bring pets by contacting the property directly, using the contact information on the booking confirmation (surcharges apply and can be found in the Fees section).


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What's In Season Tea Towel
No longer available
Garden all year long. Made of pure cotton, our What's In Season Tea Towel features charming artist sketches of fresh fruits and vegetables for each season. Mix and match it with other playful prints in the kitchen, or collect a whole set.
17"w x 28"l.
100% cotton duck canvas.
Machine wash.
Made in India.


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- Premesh Chandran
- Kuala Lumpur
- Malaysia
Chief Executive Officer, Malaysiakini
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Co-founder and CEO of Malaysiakini.com, an independent Malaysian news website
This conversation will open at 11 am ET on October 24th.
Maps are now online but still pretty static. What if maps were fast changing? Easy for anyone to create an interesting map of things, events or places, and fill it with other data like demographics, photos, laws and anything else? What kind of maps would you use or create? Give me your ideas!
Closing Statement from Premesh Chandran
Thanks everyone for your wonderful ideas. We're building a easy to use mapping tool called Feedgeorge, and we'll do our best to incorporate your ideas. Its where all geo-data can come together, and anyone can share, or look for, to get to know a place better. You can keep an eye on the project at feedgeorge.com. Or drop me a line at facebook.com/premeshchandran or @premesh and let me know your thoughts! Stay in touch, and lets map together!
Oct 24 2011: Emotional experiences of places and areas, bringing together individual experiences to let a collective experience emerge. Working with Come To Your Senses, a project exploring collaborative mapping of emotional and sensory data, I have scratched the surface of this by analogue hands on mapping. I would love to develop it further or see others do something similar in their local context. The NY Times 9/11 interactive map of emotions and memories is a recent example of a way of doing this...
Laura Sorvala / auralab
Oct 24 2011: Sounds like a wonderful project Laura! I've checked out your site. Let me know what we could do for you.
Oct 24 2011: Thanks Premesh!
I suppose we would like to know of any open source resources / tools online, we have also talked about getting possible funding for developing our own mapping software / online tool (yikes!)
Oct 24 2011: We're building the tools that will make building your own maps etc, extremely easy!Oct 24 2011: We're building this stuff on feedgeorge.com, keep an eye on it!Oct 24 2011: This is great stuff, Laura, Premesh...I also thought about experiential maps. Have you seen The Hand Drawn Map Association's online collection? I'd really like to see an interactive database that privileges non-analytical forms of making sense of space. But how to highlight the materiality of experience in an online format?
The Pine Point project might be a start--kind of an experience map of a place that no longer lives on the map. I try to get my students thinking about more creative ways to map space as a way into critiquing more rational forms of knowledge production.
Oct 24 2011: Bryan, would love to know more! I'm at facebook.com/premeshchandranOct 24 2011: Bryan - I love the Hand Drawn Maps collection. You're spot on with non-analytical forms.Oct 24 2011: Agreed. Hand-drawn maps are a great idea. I have often wondered how we can build new tools or use those in existence to create a more sensory rich and emotionally sympathetic online experience. Good luck, Laura.
Jamie Kelly
Oct 24 2011: A globe that changes the size of a country depending on an attribute selected by the user (Population, GDP,deficit)
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Jo Duran
Oct 24 2011: I'd make maps of all the trails I've been on and include on my site. Allow for personal account of trail to include facts and photos. Have an adult and kid version that contains fun educational content - GAMING in nature.
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Oct 24 2011: That could be really fun! How would you want people to find your map? Share in on facebook, link to it, what else?
Jo Duran
Oct 24 2011: Yes, use the SNS to connect as wide and far as possible. Perhaps a game app on FB that takes the Garden to a whole new level. Help people engage with each other to bridge what we have in COMMON regardless of where we live. Many ideas here that are great to combine really useful maps like Enid Williams mention of foraging and/or CSAs - eating local. Lots of positives. Oh, while we're at it put a map together for carpools. (P.S. Please check out CommonFarms at http://www.common.is/ideas/common-farms/). BTW, I did a kids program that involved arts and crafts to help communicate how children in other countries have much in common with each other. This too could be an element in the map/gaming. Thanks again!
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Oct 24 2011: Thanks Jo, great input, lots ot think about!Oct 24 2011: The ability to share it on Facebook, Google+, Blogger, etc. would be nifty!
Todd Jones
Oct 24 2011: My friend and I are working on a project that would allow users to map potential physical entities atop the digital canvas allowed by interactive maps. For example: you know of a vacant lot and would like to see a garden grown in that space. What if you could use the map to tag that piece of land and use existing networks on the web to mobilize your community to build out your imagined green space? Augmented reality becomes physical reality.
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Oct 24 2011: Haha! Great idea! We could all create stuff around us!Oct 24 2011: What about maps that indicate employment, interests, demographics or even opinions? For ex. Graphic Designers world over, by OS, people who use Google+ or Open Source software, political persuasion, etc. It could be an interesting research tool!
Oct 24 2011: Ah yes, we could create some fun maps!Oct 24 2011: I've been working on animating maps... for instance not only showing a journey you've taken but replaying the route along a map. Or mapping the change in an area over time, for instance deforestation in the Amazon or polar ice coverage.
You can play around with creating your own animated maps here - www.animaps.com
Oct 24 2011: We should work together! Keep an eye on feedgeorge.com!Oct 24 2011: I would like to have the following feature.
If I want anyone to follow me after half an hour, i can carry my smart phone where i can start recording the way (route) I am going and stop it when i reach destination and then share the whole path with my friends (followers) - which is actually the map with route and have pins pointing the landmarks.
Oct 24 2011: So, the smart phone can chart a path or a map for you? Interesting possibilities, fun way to get your a friend to follow you!
Oct 24 2011: Yes. On top of that if he can provide some red alerts on any area like traffic jam or accident etc or some additional infor like comments to his friends on "the total time of travel he took" and so on..
Also another ides i have is :
1. How about showing the speedlimits on the map when user drags his mouse on the map or clicks any part on the map?
2. Also you can show any attraction points or gas stations or restaurants in 5/10 miles on where the user clicks the mouse on map.
Oct 24 2011: Yes, I'm sure we can do these things. Keep an eye for feedgeorge.comOct 24 2011: I would just like someone to facilitate the transformation of the gobs of database data into map-based viewers. Specifically, the gobs of county unemployment data from BLS, farm production from USDA, etc...
Oct 24 2011: Yes, Google has started this with Google Fusion tables. We'll do even a better job.Oct 24 2011: Keep an eye on us at feedgeorge.comOct 24 2011: Would be great to have a map that marks where the recycling centres are.
Oct 24 2011: Yes, that would be nice!Oct 24 2011: Keep an eye on us at feedgeorge.com
Oct 24 2011: already am! ;)Oct 24 2011: Hi.
i would love to see a map that shows and connects all diferent events, organisations, initiatives and such that are actually really changing our planet and its peoples course to a more sustainable, honest and realistic way of living.
If there is one thing the world needs in my opinion it is to see this movement that has been getting stronger and stronger since decades and seems to be beginning to blossom and take its rightful place in woldwide society rigth now.
Any chance of putting that in a map? :)
Oct 24 2011: That's a great idea, perhaps we can create some crowd sourcing tool, to show changes in time, and capture the amount of energy pushing change! That would be a colourful map!Oct 24 2011: I'm on facebook at facebook.com/premeshchandran. Buzz me!Oct 24 2011: A interesting map would be one that links historical events (political, social, economic, scientific) with their respective geographic areas of origin. I'd like to see one of these about my country.
Oct 24 2011: Wow, we could have photos, explanations etc, with a timeslider, like wikipedia on maps?
Oct 24 2011: Sure. It would be great. Another interactive map that I thought would show the dynamics of migration, immigration or pilgrimages motivated by faith. Can you imagine something like that?Oct 24 2011: Could there be a map with live updates of what's going on around you like concerts, football matches etc
Jo Duran
Oct 24 2011: Premesh, please let me know if I can be of any help. Much success on your mapping. Best & Happy Trails!Oct 24 2011: For history and tourism. Imagine arriving at a historic landmark. You hold up your phone as if to take a photo, but instead a historic photo, or re-rendering of the event appears. For example, you visit a historic battlefield. Point your phone to the left, and it shows one encampment. Or visit a place where someone famous spoke. Point your camera towards the historic balcony and an old photos appears of him/her standing there. Visit San Francisco, and see what the street looked like in 1920. Basically, point anywhere and significant events appear on the phone/ipad OVERLAPPING the area you are pointing at.Oct 24 2011: I would like to see the latest updates on traffic jams, on the new traffic system and how many cars had recently passed by a road/lane. As most devices are now have GPS and at the same time also has contacts information, I also would like to see the sactuary places of my families, relatives and friends or even my offices and my colleagues.
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Well, I am grateful that technology is already there and very near to perfection of its own self that it can revolute into even better and better version than the present one.
:-) I wish to create a map which can detect whether the baby universe, big bang and the other universe or multiverse really exist or not. If it is successful, I'd like to congratulate Stephen Hawking on his brilliant theory!
Oct 24 2011: Great idea! We're building some of this on feedgeorge.com!Oct 24 2011: add an in the news that would allow someone to click on a location and it would search news blogs and cast and display what is going on in that area
Oct 24 2011: Local bloggers! Great way to find more info on the local sceneOct 24 2011: Online maps showing real time weather conditions, tracking on love ones, pets or even vehicle
Oct 24 2011: Track everything!Oct 24 2011: The Middle Eastern countries (Qatar in particular) are quite challenging - would be great to have a tool for countries with no street names (!!!).
Oct 24 2011: Yes, we could give everybody a geo-code, even if they don't have a street!Oct 24 2011: What about this?
A map to see how seriously a specific area's polluted or clean.
Oct 24 2011: Ocean pollution! On!
Oct 24 2011: so we can know which area to dive or not.Oct 24 2011: For large events, such as city-wide festivals, county fairs, arts walks etc, a map that gives up-to-the minute event happenings, including up-to-the-minute photos & tips.
A feature where I could map out my "To-Do" list for the day. After making a list of errands, appointments etc, I could map out the route that would save the most time (or perhaps the feature would automatically do it for me?).
A map that shows high-crime density areas. When one is visiting an unfamiliar city, one may take care to either be alert in those areas ares or to avoid them altogether.
Oct 24 2011: Yes, crime areas. Automated route for your to-do! haha. Your phone will really take control of your life!Oct 24 2011: Online maps showing the nearest hospitals combined with information about which doctors are there, their specialities, their available timings - all in one-click would be really useful for a patient in times of an emergency. With just a keyword search with the name of the disease and the current location, the map could show the relevant information by the click of a button - wouldn't that save a few more lives?!
Oct 24 2011: That would save lives!Oct 24 2011: I would like to have a map that show month to month how the world are changing. Now i can see how much rainforrest is missing from last month and i can sign my name with a lawnmoer, see the oilspills etc.
And a map that shows where people r in need of help and how to help them. Mabye links to NGO's.
And a map with housenumbers.
Thank you
Oct 24 2011: Thanks Birgitte. Keep an eye on feedgeorge.com and we'll build these things there!
Oct 24 2011: Thank you sir, very muchOct 24 2011: I'd love to see a map listing sites of lesbian of color hotspots. It's a huge problem I've had in many cities that I visit. I'd also like a map that lists all the events that are going on in my own backyard. Isn't it odd that maps don't list events of any kind?
Oct 24 2011: Haha, we'll create the tools for crowd sourcing this information! Keep an eye on feedgeorge.com!Oct 24 2011: Safe places to park and sleep
Oct 24 2011: Yep! keep an eye for feedgeorge.com. Do create this map, people need it!Oct 24 2011: geography to see how small countries are becoming. And relate that to the social media. With the land always moving we can see people being left behind in some areas
Oct 24 2011: Demography + geography over time? Yes, a great way to look into social issues and peopleOct 24 2011: Thinking of the blue dot on my iPhone, I'd like to be able to share it with others, and have them share their dots with me.
Oct 24 2011: I don't use an iPhone! Tell me more!Oct 24 2011: We are building point to point tour guides for tourisme in 40 cities around the world and we are using Google Maps to share our Treks and Reviews! We have plenty of ideas from what is missing on Google Maps... but not really ready to share them on a public chat!
But we think that maps should offer live RSS feeds for cinemas, theater and festival events!
Visit our website and maybe we could share some more in private!
Oct 24 2011: Yep, we're building lots of tools for crowd sourcing. feedgeorge.com, Message me on facebook.com/premeshchandranOct 24 2011: I would like to see a distance measuring tool. If I can plot a route on the map and the measuring tool tells me how much is that distance in miles/kms in terms of walking and biking. For example: to determine how many miles is a walk or jog in a particular park.


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Had to google loads of errors and work out solutions (mostly adding stdio.h etc. includes) but now I'm against a problem I don't know the answer to...
So the whole daemon, kernel module and GUI compiles fine if I remove a line from the kernel module, but if I leave the line in, the kernel module refuses to compile. If I compile and run without this line the output I get is;
Conf file settings: LOG_ALL=1, QUERY_MODE=1, QUERY_TEST_MODE=0, BE_A_DAEMON=0, CHECK_ALL=0, LOG_STD_OUT=1.
SignalThread: MarkActive was successful
SignalThread: PID FROM IsActive IS 0
Signal thread started pid=16373
Opening firewall module.
Entering Debug Mode.
Error requesting the firewall to print debug messages; errno=25.
/opt/pgrd/pgmgrdgui: Unable to connect to client cmd socket; errno=-2.
Which I believe is because of this 'ioctl' thing which appears to allow communication with kernel modules like it's a normal named file or something.
So here is the code causing the problems;
/* ** init_firewall - Module entry routine. */ int init_firewall() { int rc; myprintk(KERN_ALERT "entering module_init\n"); Firewall.FileOps.ioctl = FirewallIoctl; Firewall.FileOps.open = FirewallOpen; Firewall.FileOps.read = FirewallRead; Firewall.FileOps.release = FirewallClose; rc = FirewallInit(); if(rc == 0)
/tmp/pgrd-7.0/pgrdm/firewall.c: In function 'init_firewall': /tmp/pgrd-7.0/pgrdm/firewall.c:1009:20: error: 'struct file_operations' has no member named 'ioctl'
Any ideas on how to solve this error and get the program working?


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