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- Juan Donado
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Should Americans eliminate the Electoral College and elect their presidents through simple majority vote?
Given that some presidents have won without persuading the majority of Americans, and the huge deal of money spent only on swing states I ask myself that question
I have always thought that it is unfair that republicans in California or Democrats in Texas are not taken into account just because people around them think differently.
Time for change?
John Smith
Oct 24 2012: To end the "confusion" about "tyranny of the majority" once and for all: that phrase is about a majority oppressing minorities through democratic means (such as Jim Crow and DOMA). It is about people, not states. People have votes, not states. The electoral college has nothing to do with tyranny of the majority, the bill of rights, having two parliamentary houses, having a supreme court and the requirement of a supermajority for a constitutional amendment do. The electoral college is a freak accident, a means to let southerners have their cake and eat it to (they could prohibit slaves from voting and still not lose influence in elections). Several founding fathers opposed the idea and several others saw it as nothing more than an acceptable temporary compromise.Nov 12 2012: I think maybe the last few elections show that the whole purpose of the EC is defeated by the winner takes all policy of the majority of states. It just means that instead of the few large states dominating the campaigns the few swinging staes of various size dominate the campaigning. If all states used proportional representation then campaigning in any state would be just as likely to get you another EC vote so the potential POTUS would have to cover a lot more ground.
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Nov 12 2012: Yes, and even if they only went to the major cities they would already reach more people than they currently do in such metropolises as Des Moines and Cleveland.
Eric Brosch
Nov 9 2012: The fact that we are discussing removing the Electoral College shows the extent to which we are no longer a republic (small R) but are instead run by an enormous central government. To get rid of the Electoral College is to say that we are simply one large, monolithic governmental unit, ignoring the fact that the initial structure of the government gave very little power to the central government, conferring most to the states. Under that system, essentially, the states as relatively-sovereign units were voting for *their* representation at the federal level. We now see our city/county/state governments as relatively feeble and useless with most of our focus being on Washington, DC. Abolishing the Electoral College would, in effect, crystallize the idea that we are not a plural "United States", but a singular.
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Nov 12 2012: I appreciate what you're saying there Eric, but I'm not sure I entirely agree with that sentiment. Our federal government, or "central government" as you call it, consists of the three main powers, of which the presidency is just one equal third. This question is only about the presidency, and so I presume the other two thirds consisting of the congress and supreme court would not change the way those members are chosen. The congress is obviously very much about individual states representing their citizens.
I think what's happened is that technology has allowed 100's of millions of us citizens to actually make an informed decision about who to elect for president. That just may not have been imaginable at the time of the founding of this nation. At the same time, the expanded role of the federal government has made the choice of president much more relevant to citizens.
Because of all that, I would heartily endorse efforts to abolish the electoral college and elect our president through simple majority vote. Only then would every vote really count.
Edit: And this is why I'm so interested in how the how legalization of pot thing plays out in terms of states rights. There is no valid constitutional basis for the federal government's stand here, and I am hoping this issue gets to the Supreme Court and helps tip the balance of power back towards the state.Nov 8 2012: We need to get rid of the electoral college. It's obsolete. It was created when there were many rural areas that knew nothing of the candidates. Today we live in a digital age where all day and night you can watch news or go online to research info.
Dan Geurin
Nov 5 2012: In a national vote, separation of votes by stae is not needed. Simple majority should be the rule
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Rick Pedigo
Oct 29 2012: The Electoral College is a direct violation of my Civil Right to vote for President and Vice President. In nearly all states, electors are awarded on a winner-take-all basis to the candidate who wins the most votes in that state. Therefore, all citizens that voted for the candidate that lost that state have had there votes eliminated. In states where one political party is stronger than the other, the minority party will never get a chance to vote for the President. This is a direct violation of my constitutional rights to have my vote count.
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We have the technology and ability to correctly count ballots. The Electoral Collage is outdated, and is no longer needed.
Regardless of your political views or party, wouldn't you like your vote to count?
Nov 3 2012: I see what you are saying Rick, but I dont see how a direct popular vote would change the situation. If we had a direct popular vote, one side would still win. The losing side's votes would "not count" just like the minority in the state did not count in your example. The problem is not the electoral college system but the fact that there is only one president who is elected. A popular vote system wouldnt change that
Nov 3 2012: With a popular vote you really need 50%+1 votes to win, with the electoral college you can win with as few as 25%+1 votes because the vote of a democrat in Texas or of a republican in New York really don't count.Nov 9 2012: While I understand your frustration, claiming it's a violation of your "Civil Rights" is incorrect. Because the United States Electoral College is established via Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the Constitution which binds the electoral college votes to the membership of Congress and the 23rd Amendment which gives D.C. three electoral votes the electoral college is perfectly constitutional.
I do believe that the electoral college itself should be updated to be required to take into account the popular vote in a state unless less than 50% of the states registered voters do not vote. It's a complicated issue and should not be looked at as simply as a "gut it and take into account the popular vote only" viewpoint in my opinion. Many of the systems in place are to prevent a tyranny of the majority situation. Many are also in place when the electorate as a whole did not always have access to information like we do now. Update it absolutely. Gut it and be done with it... I don't think that's an answer.
Bradley Holt
Oct 28 2012: Hell No!! If you do away with the Electorial College then our Presidents could theoreticaly be elected by people living on the east coast between Boston and Washington DC, combined with the people living on the California coast. Thereby leaving everyone living in the rest of the country without a voice. The Electoral College is designed for each State to be represented based on its population, as is the US House of Representatives. As for Wade's comments about to much Lawyers being elected, he is right that to many Lawyers are elected. But that is WE THE PEOPLES fault. We choose to vote for them and 50% of us are to DAMN LAZY to vote. Hence we have the Govt. we deserve. If we as a Nation truely want a better, more representitive govt. then WE THE PEOPLE should get off our collective lazy butts, and VOTE in the primaries for any candidate who is not a lawyer. If we as a Nation are fed up with 24 consecutive years of IVY League rule, then WE THE PEOPLE should vote for any third party candidate. Unfortunately, I believe we have a combination of to many spineless people and to many sheeple. I for one will continue to vote my consience and vote for a non lawyer Third party candidate.
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Nov 12 2012: And why should the opinions of "people living on the east coast between Boston and Washington DC, combined with the people living on the California coast" matter less than yours?Oct 24 2012: By all means! This is an outdated situation. We've been a UNITED STATES for a long time.Oct 24 2012: We don't need to eliminate the electoral college. We just need to realize our government has more positions than President. We need to consider our state elections and fill our congress with progressive thinkers...not biased individuals elected by lobbyists.
Ike Zach
Oct 24 2012: i.e., it isn't the systems, it is the voters don't use their right side of the brain when selecting their representatives.
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Oct 24 2012: No, it really is in the system. If 74.9% of the public voted for Ghandi and 25.1% for Hitler, then Hitler could win the presidency if he won in all the right districts.
The electoral college gave America George Bush and look at this British parliamentary election result that uses a similar regional winner-takes-all system:
Conservatives: 10.7 million votes --> 306 seats
Labour: 8.6 million votes --> 258 seats
Liberal Democrats: 6.8 million --> 57 seats
In fact the liberal democrats gained a greater percentage of the votes than in the previous election, yet they actually lost 5 seats! The British conservatives have traditionally been the biggest beneficiaries of the system, while the liberal democrats have made the popular vote one of their key platform issues.
Like the British system the electoral college kills off third parties and makes people win elections with a minority of the votes.Oct 24 2012: It is about the system. Electoral colleges should be dropped and alternative vote should be enacted, it ensures an election that most people will truly be happy about, instead of an election based on important zones.Oct 23 2012: Maybe instead of worrying about the Electoral College it would be better to try to do something about limiting campaign budgets, you might actually get a President that is independant.
Oct 23 2012: They tried that with McCain Feigngold which did little to reform the campaign contribution but as usual added complication.
Gail .
Oct 22 2012: It's a horrible system. It devalues you and me. It makes our votes meaningless if we are a minority in our state. It leaves a handful of people choosing a candidate that I voted against, and their vote is more powerful than mine.
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Age Funk
Nov 15 2012: Hi Noah,
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I largely agree with your points and have a few other thoughts to offer. I think that the bi-partisan system is inherently flawed because it encourages only voting for "the one you like better than the other" when I haven't found strong allegiance with either candidate in the last 30 years. I currently reside in the Czech Republic and I'm very intrigued by their system. This January will be their first election where the president is not elected by parliament. a) it's a popular vote (as is everywhere in the world that has free democratic elections - America is the only one that uses an electoral college) - b) they currently have 11 candidates for president. I closely identify with several of them.
The pre-requisite for becoming a candidate here is getting 50,000 signatures from the general populace, and they must be endorsed by 10 deputies (senators). This - for a country of ~10.5 million people - makes it challenging enough that one must be a serious contender just to be nominated. So, from these 11 candidates, there is a "primary" of sorts, but it's a popular primary. No affiliation with a political party is required. From this primary, the two with the most votes go to a popular vote run-off. The most interesting thing? I've yet to see *any* mud-slinging. It is strictly business from their stance about what they will do to improve the country in their way with their methods.
I believe that it's *because* the electoral college doesn't give us enough choice in the matter from the very beginning during the primaries, that we are forced to form allegiance with one of the two political parties.
But my larger point, addressing your first paragraph, is that I - and tens of millions like me - don't vote because our vote doesn't matter for purely geographic reasons. How would things change if we had 80% voter turnout instead of 57.5%? Until I live in a state where my views matter in the EC, I fail to see the value in voting for president at all.
Nov 15 2012: Do you think the relative civility of Czech elections is to do with a less active press and therefore less ability to "buy" votes with massive and expensive advertising campaigns? Or is it more to do with the lack of a well formed bi-partisan R or D for life mentallity that seems to exist in much of the US.Nov 16 2012: Age Funk, you have seen the flaws of the Electoral College system. It can discourage voter turnout. Discouraging voter turnout is probably the best argument against the system.
The other comments about the bi-partisan system actually encapsulate the goal of the system. When the U.S. was first created, it was very diverse. The bi-partisan system normally works in larger diverse states; the parliamentary model works better in less diverse states. There were lots of immigrants in the colonies, and the economies of the North and the South were drastically different. There were lots of different ideas and interest groups with conflicting ideas. The two-party system tries to force platforms that untie as many people as possible. This would prevent one group from trying to legislate only for its benefit. (For example, if the people located in the major cities of the US could gather enough support to win the election for whoever they wanted, they could pick one candidate who put ridiculous land taxes on the entire nation. This would severely hurt the people who live in rural states while the city-dwellers were largely unaffected. This is just an example, but it demonstrates the point.) The two-party system forces the two different parties to make platforms that are broad to gather as many votes as possible. If the US had a system like the Czech Republic, the popular primary that you spoke of could very well lead to two candidates that did not represent the public at large. (Maybe two candidates that were pro-military and also pro-life. If one did not like those stances, he could not vote against them because both candidates would be for it.) The popular election would then be less representative of the wishes of the people than the two-party system.
I see what you are saying. The system is not perfect, but the alternative has the potential to be much worse.
Age Funk
Nov 16 2012: If it was a truly popular vote, how would you end up with a run-off between two candidates who had the same views? Here, there aren't 6 of the same candidate and 5 of the other - that's the beauty of it. They are all extremely different from each other. I guess to me, it feels like the USA as a whole - through the EC - doesn't trust its people to choose from a rainbow of colors, only black or white. If you are Orange, or Blue, you have to decide what your 2nd favorite color is, but they're all different colors. You couldn't end up with two Reds to vote between because there would be no point running against someone so similar when there are so many diverse choices. By polarizing the entire nation, the EC encourages a black or white, segregationist, for-us-or-against-us mentality which frankly, goes against everything I believe America was founded upon.
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Subsequently, I believe that by not having a 2-party system, during the primaries, yes, you would have 11 people receiving (likely) far less than 50% of the popular vote, but the MOST *popular* 2 candidates would be in the runoff. It's the exact same as the USA primaries now, except that instead of having truly varied opinions as here, you get 11 Rs and 11 Ds deciding who will be black and who will be white at the end, that can only be decided by registered Rs or Ds, so it's polarized from the start. There are no shades of grey, and this is what America is: 16 million shades of grey between the two extremes.
What you speak of about one group railroading another group into something they don't want is EXACTLY what I complain about happening today in the EC. Oregon's vote is swung every election by the urban areas - Portland and Eugene - which goes completely against the roots of the state. People don't migrate to rural areas (or they would no longer be rural) so no matter how you slice it, I politely have to disagree about it being a worse alternative, but I agree that R or D, America is terrified of change.
Age Funk
Oct 26 2012: I have read so much about the EC lately but fail (still) to understand how there is a better representation of individuals through the EC as many assert, compared to a popular vote. I am an Oregon resident and I have never voted in Presidential elections. Why? Because my vote does not matter *because* of the EC. In 2012, Obama will win Oregon and Romney will not. Regardless of who I vote for, my vote does... not... matter. Millions in the USA feel the same as I do. Show me a conservative in Oregon and I'll introduce you to a liberal in Texas. And the media wonders why there's low voter turnout, *this is why.* Regardless of the debates about whether or not the USA is a "true democracy" or a "representative republic" these are tangential to the real issue which is that statistically, millions and millions of people do not vote, and one of the many reasons why is that a percentage of non-voters feel that their vote simply does not count, because it doesn't in an EC for the majority of politically concerned non-voters. If there were a popular vote, I would be voting in every single election because at least I'd know there would be a check mark for an official I want to see in office. Until then, I deliberately neglect my civic duties as a voter and US citizen because it's an utter waste of my time, all due to the geographical area in which I happen to live and work and pay taxes. One could assert that it's a form of taxation without representation in a way, when one's representation is determined solely by the majority, that's just another form of mob rule, cloaked under the guise of democracy.
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Nov 8 2012: Hey Age,
I get your frustration, but here's two things to think about: First of all, you should still vote. I'm in Massachussetts, which is also going to go blue no matter what, but I still vote because there are a lot more offices than just the presidency--this year there was a very close senate race as well as 5 referendums, some of which passed and others failed--for which your vote does certainly count.
Secondly, if we did away with the EC, I hate to say it, but your vote would count for less than it does now, because it would get lumped in with all of the votes from huge population centers like New York City. To put it in perspective, NYC alone has a population of 8 million people (New York state has 20 mil).
South Dakota has 800k
North Dakota has 700k
Montana has almost 1mil
Oregon has almost 4mil
Idaho has 1.5mil
All of those states added together barely come to one NYC, and they come to less than half of one New York State (add in Washington state, and you're still lagging far behind). Right now, by the electoral college, Oregon= about 1/4 of New York. That may sound bad, but by popular vote, Oregon would equal less than 1/5th of New York. All of the states listed above currently equal 4/5 of a New York by the EC, but by population, they'd only equal a little over 3/10 of one.
In other words, a vote in Oregon is a lot more valuable now than it would be if we got rid of the Electoral College. And what that means is not just that candidates would have no reason to appeal to Oregonians if we nixed the Electoral College, but that every single viable candidate would have to come from New York or LA. Because a New Yorker would automatically have enough in-built supporters to dwarf any candidate from any other state. So unless you like the idea of every president being the former Mayor or Governor of New York for the rest of time, you should be pretty happy the Electoral College is in place.Oct 26 2012: Presidents should be elected through simple majority voting without any influence from an outdated electoral college system. Let's keep moving forward and diffuse aged systems that are no longer effective in today's society.
Oct 29 2012: What are the reasons this "aged system" was put in place?
Do you know?
Oct 30 2012: The system was put in place over 200 years ago when communications took weeks in some cases. so they made the number of votes each state get proportionate to avoid majority rule and sent the electors to DC to choose the president on their states behalf.
Nov 3 2012: Well, the was one reason, but the main reason is representation. I live in a smaller community in California that is majority Republican Conservative (way up north), so I understand exactly why we have the electoral college. Its for the small states such as Wyoming or Nebraska who have less people than California. Growing up in certain areas makes huge influences on your beliefs, and thus who you vote for. Being in San Francisco is substantially different than Redding Ca. If it were majority vote, the voices of smaller communities (the important ones who grow food for America) will not be heard while large cities with similar beliefs from similar cultures choose for the rest of us.
Justin Clark
Oct 30 2012: I'm sorry but majority rule is just as bad as minority rule.
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edward long
Oct 24 2012: A chart of interest in this subject would look like a healthy person's EKG. Every 4-years interest peaks and we all agree that the EC should be looked at and probably abandoned. Then, BOOM!, we have a new or a returning president and nobody cares for the next 3-1/2 years. Besides, Christmas is coming, we can talk about this later. Politically speaking America is 50 states, not 365 +/- million individuals. If everyone moved to one state guess which state would have the most say in electing a new Prez?
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Robert Nieto
Oct 23 2012: The very core of the voting system is flawed in the US and for that matter in the rest of the world.
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Two of the largest issues I see are:
1) People are voting for a single person or party to translate their opinions (often very poorly over a very wide selection of subjects. I don't know of a single person that agree's with every single statement their preferred party has made.
2) No one is educated in every aspect politics make decisions over yet we expect them to vote for it. People should vote for the subjects in their field of expertise or are directly to their person.
I'm confident that the people of a country are more then capable of ruling themselves without the need of politicians we just need to make this technically possible.
John Dunbar
Oct 23 2012: @ Pat Gilbert, "In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be jsut, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." -James Madison
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Originally land owners were only allowed to vote, a lot of the founding fathers owned slaves and George Washington was far from a grass roots guy, he was worth roughly 500 million today. The founders cared about themselves and their friends, the did not care about anyone who was not white, woman, or the poor at least in regards to allowing them to take part in shaping their society.
"Complexity is typically an indicator of someone's lack of understanding. You are economically and politically illiterate. Of course it appears complex."
Pat, anyone who does't passionately love free markets is illiterate according to you, anyone who doesn't believe in libertarian ideology is illiterate to you. I used to espouse the ideas you do, i voted for Ron Paul in 08 I've later come to see absurdity in that ideology. Its a clear call for corporate tyranny. Would you call the human brain complex? I would and so does everyone who studies it. You would never here a neuroscientist say the human brain is not complex just because they understand the current literature and findings, sorry your point makes zero sense. The entire history of humanity as well as our current political problems with the economy is complex. If you think it isn't my guess is that you have settled for a feel good ideology that only benefits you.
yes we had 3,000 people killed on our land but Iraq was not even close to the beginning of war for profit.
Oct 24 2012: Having skin in the game is a valid way to keep the vote to the people who do want what is best for the country.
I would not want someone to operate on my brain who thought it was complex. There are parts of the brain that Science does not understand. I imagine for you to say I don't know would be a very complex problem.
Ron Paul and the Libertarian philosophy is very viable (not to be confused with nut cases like Noam Chomsky) I have been a registered Libertarian since the mid 70s.
All you have to say is I don't know about this stuff. Which would be impossible for you.
I don't disagree regarding war.
I might add that the infinitely more effective and important disposition is this:
Oct 24 2012: "Ron Paul and the Libertarian philosophy is very viable"
Lol, I have yet to meet the first libertarian who was willing to start from scratch in a libertarian society. They're always rich people or people who are financially secure and have a Napoleon complex that makes them think they would've been millionaires if there were no taxes (because they don't make mistakes, everything that's not perfect in their lives is the fault of "gubment" and "moochers"). All libertarians expect to become top dog, I say let them, dumpe them on an island and let them battle it out, Lord of the Flies style...Oct 24 2012: Pat what is best for the country is to be decided by everyone who lives in the country. The idea that only those who hold economic power should vote is ridiculous. I cannot think of a quicker route to oppression. I know how you feel about a federal government guiding you, how would you feel if the federal government blocked your right to vote on social issues because you were not a sociologist or because you didn't work in the field. This is just an attempt to highjack power from those you disagree with. Everyone has stake in the outcome in the United States you just think the ones you happen to disagree with should be silenced.
Pat, continuously hinting that I don't know what I'm talking about and then rebutting me with meaningless responses doesn't bode well for your argument. Ill gladly watch the links I think being able to admit when your wrong shows maturity as well as rationality.
What I really do not get is you telling me I should just admit I don't know what I'm talking about, sorry Pat your not the authority on this subject as bad as you may want to be. What is it that I don't understand? Let me guess, your train of thought goes "if he disagrees with me then he just does not get it" I think I get it, the scary thing is I know you do too yet you still hold steadfastly to your beliefs.
Oct 24 2012: Oppression does not work that way.
No I'm just trying to hijack power from those who want a free ride those who do not care about the American Dream or America.
I'm sorry did I infer that I was inferring, my mistake, You don't have a clue what you are talking about I mean that in an in your face, black and white, sort of way.
Am I the authority NOPE, but I do know which way is up. The thing is you and other people think that we are playing patty cakes, which is not the case we are talking about the future of the world. You can say I'm being dramatic but the fact is I'm not.
When I recommend those videos I'm not trying to be right I'm trying to learn you something. I would not waste my time on someone like John Smith, but I think you might smell the coffee... A lot of people would say I'm being provocative but I assure that is not the case. What I 'm saying is to LOOKOct 24 2012: " Having skin in the game is a valid way to keep the vote to the people who do want what is best for the country."
In general I agree with this statement but there must be allowance made in some cases. If the GFC caused me to lose my job which in turn caused me to default on my mortgage should I lose my right to vote as I am now unemployed with no material assets?
Oct 24 2012: The GFC was a consequence of government meddling that should not have occurred in the first place.
Having skin in the game goes way back and is not relevant to today.Oct 23 2012: I would say in short, yes. To be more specific, I feel like the entirety of our system of representation should be overhauled. The current system, even through a direct popular vote, wouldn't fix the issue of an election won by majority, simply because the addition of another candidate (let alone multiple) makes a majority vote much harder and in some cases nearly impossible to achieve. For a history on this, look at the election of John Quincy Adams. In modern terms, if Ron Paul were put up for election alongside the two candidates already running, it wouldn't be all too surprising if none of the three candidates got more than 50% of the vote.
So I would prefer to see a system like IRV (Instant Runoff Voting), wherein the people can vote for multiple candidates in order of preference. With such a system multiple candidates could run for office, and if no majority is held, the votes that counted towards the candidate with the least votes are recounted to the next highest preference until a majority is seen. This allows for a breakdown of the two party system, presenting the people with more freedom of choice, and would still allow the majority to win, without having to rely on archaic tie-breaker style rules written into our laws. It would likely take several cycles before the two major parties really suffer any losses, but as voters catch on we could break out of this system into a much more open and direct one. So with that, not only would Democrats in Texas be heard, but so would Green Party members, as well as any Libertarians in California and so on.
Oct 23 2012: Niles
How would that system guard against the tyranny of the majority?
Oct 23 2012: that majority would be a better representation of the populous, then our current system which is a tyranny of senior citizens. Which is not a true representation of the populous, most younger citizens don't feel there vote counts. So they don't vote. And sadly the are not 100% false for thinking this
Oct 23 2012: The last election had a record turn out apparently because of the novelty and ACORN.
This poll does not show your contention of a senior tyranny in the last POTUS election?
In general we have tried every idea under the sun since the 1700's. How about trying what the constitutions says? The framers and their work imo opinion was an anomaly in history and when their directions were followed the U.S. flourished which includes everyone in the whole world. Prospering and flourishing is the point is it not?Oct 23 2012: Personally I am tired of the older class deciding how I live my life once there gone because all current politics does today is put a band aid on the situation and the kick the can down the road for the next group to band aid. Personally you shouldn't be in politics after 60 -65 and there should be term limits 4 to 8 years in each level max(local, state,federal). When your that old you don't have as much investment in the future as a 30 year old would.
Oct 23 2012: Term limits sound great but don't work, we have them here in Calf and you can see the results.Oct 23 2012: Ok well how often have we had a african american man running for president? And a women running for VP? I am not sure that the last election is the best pick for your statistical analysis of poll stats.
Oct 23 2012: Enlighten me with some facts.Oct 23 2012: here is some facts on youth turn out
as well as how many people actual vote that can vote, which barely goes over 50% of that actual people who can vote.
So our current number of people coming out to vote represent less then half the voting population on average. Once again because they feel there vote does not count.
Oct 24 2012: What does this have to do with the tyranny of the seniors?Oct 23 2012: How don't term limits work? I am sorry I don't live in Cali
Oct 23 2012: No I'm sorry I do live in Cali.
Because the legacy of the former politician is continued through his assistants. The proof is Calif is as F'ed up ever.Oct 23 2012: So the problem is more that when there are term limits the politicians them self change, but the staff of the former...former politicians remain the same? I can definitely see how that is a major problem. And would look less like a republic... although I have not watched that video is very long and I dont have the time to watch it right now. So you are correct we might not have the same definition of what a republic is. I am going with general terms that are along the lines of for/representation of the people
And yes Cali is pretty much messed up but you guys are also very progressive which is a good thing. Personally it seems more like and ego thing as an outsider. Everyone's got an opinion and they think there opinion is better then the others. Which is ultimately the fundamental flaw or all politics not matter what country or state you look at
Oct 23 2012: Yes to the first paragraph. Look to my first post on this thread it might help with the definition of a U.S. Republic.
Do you see a connection between "messed up" and "very progressive"
Not sure what you mean by the ego thing? If you mean me I prefer the Joe Friday philosophy except for the Willfully ignorant which try my patience.Oct 25 2012: no the ego in politics not youOct 25 2012: Oh that only 50% of the population that can vote does and the majority of that is older folks, not the youth as defined as 18-30.Oct 23 2012: Here is the part of this that often gets over looked: "Each state government is free to have its own plan for selecting its electors."
This means that states have the right to decide if it is a winner-take-all, or some other method.
"Forty eight states, and Washington, D.C., employ the winner-takes-all method, each awarding its electors as a single bloc. Maine and Nebraska use the "Congressional District Method", selecting one elector within each congressional district by popular vote and selecting the remaining two electors by the statewide popular vote. This method has been used in Maine since 1972 and in Nebraska since 1996".
Always helps to know what is under discussion.
Oct 23 2012: but the delegates can change there vote if they want
Oct 23 2012: They can change their votes in Maine and Nebraska? You're making a mute point if its never actually done to the extent that it created an public outcry.
(This video full of skewed percentages and statistics, to the point that, in my opinion, it misrepresents the debate of the EC.)Oct 23 2012: The reason that the electoral college should remain as is is that U.S. is a Republic that uses representatives to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Voters are pretty ignorant about politics and economics, once you have a tipping point of more people on the dole than not you have a situation where the majority will always vote itself more free stuff.
Another factor on this is that the U.S. is founded on Federalism which means that the Federal and State governments run the country in unison. This is why what Lincoln did was so egregious. It used to be before Wilson the U.S. Senators were appointed by the States.
So no it was never intended that the public elect the president or the senator only congress and state officials. As you know the state gives all of its electoral votes to one candidate and this is decided by the State as it was intended.
And this boys and girls is why this country is circling the drain because too much power has been given to a centralized government which willy nilly results in socialism. The individual prospers in small government not with what we have now.
The better solution would be to get rid of the 17th amendment.
Oct 23 2012: "The reason that the electoral college should remain as is is that U.S. is a Republic that uses representatives to prevent the tyranny of the majority."
You don't solve "tyranny of the majority" issues by granting small states more votes because people in small states aren't more enlightened than people in big states. Besides, ask any gay (or elderly black) American how well that "Republic that protects the rights of minorities" idea works out in practice.
Oct 23 2012: My standard answer to you John is what the hell are you talking about?
The myth is that black people and women are underpaid and there for the government should step in and fix this. The fact is black people made more money when the government did not "help" them with things like Davis Bacon, or minimum wage laws. Women make as much money as men, the whole thing about them being underpaid is crap.
The Republic has served both very well, women can vote as can blacks. Blacks, Gays , and Women (no glass ceiling witness Meg Whitman, Oprah Winfrey, Carly Fiorina) are accepted socially and legally.
I probably won't answer your next post as you are a Troll
Oct 23 2012: As usually you are living in the bubble. Anyone else would immediately have understood that I was talking about civil rights issues: it took the republic almost 200 years to grant blacks and women all civil rights and it still hasn't done so for gay people. Several countries with a popular vote beat the US to it by decades or more, in these departments. FYI: tyranny of the majority refers to the suppression of civil rights of minorities by the majority, not to the "little people" directly electing their head of state. The electoral college doesn't do anything to address real tyranny of the majority issues since there are plenty of bigots in the small states and electors are chosen by political parties.Oct 24 2012: I was sitting in class when i wrote my last bout...came back to strike a point or rather just defend myself. Then i realized that everyone keeps getting a little off topic with their comments and/or keeps insulting each other in a way that does not represent the TED community.
1.Tyranny of the majority from what i understand is just absolute rule of the minority group, in ancient Greece minorities were the poor, not minorities how we see it today being classified by ethnicity or what have you. Tyrants have absolute rule over everyone else, meaning those are the minorities, i haven't read anywhere where its used in a civil rights manner, but i could be mistaken.
2. The lack of educated people on the topic of politics, which i referred to earlier, was vaguely put. We have a lot of people who do not know the government and/or governmental issues, outside of what's effecting their lives. Yes you can argue and say everything is effecting them, but what i mean is the average person does not take in consideration on how policies effect minorities in Chicago, or the middle class in North Carolina. It's all circumstantial, call me selfish but the average person does not consider people out side of their immediate group. I do believe that we need a better system where we can be represented not by how populated our states are, but then draw up a plan....don't sit their and argue about petty terms and opinions.
3. Civil rights. We all have rights as citizens and we do abuse them at times...but granted we are deprive of certain rights(choices), such as gay rights and legalization of marijuana rights...but those do not always need to be shoved into debates. Let the people, that meaning US, fight for what we believe should be rights. Women's, minority rights, integration...those are things that people felt the need to bring attention and fight for...you want gay rights...fight for it. No one is stopping you.
4. It is time for a change, but where is the effort to change it?Oct 23 2012: I think what Pat is getting at is that the "people" do not have the best interest for each other. We really can't help each other while keeping our own interests at hand. We're talking about electoral college and voting rights for people, yet some guy decides to step in and talk about civil rights? Look, what the government does reflects the feelings of the majority, sounds blunt but it hold some validity. The difference between the civil rights of the past and of today is that many more people cared and did something to end the discrimination. If one method doesn't work, then try something else. People are giving up before the fight starts...matter of fact, could someone point to where the fight is at? If enough people cared today and went about it radically then their would be more rights for gays.
Personally i don't think civil issues need to be addressed first hand here seeing that there are a lot bigger problems in our government right now, such as a failing economy, military, lack of jobs, etc. People have more rights in this country than a lot of countries and the resources to make a lot of themselves, but too often it becomes easier to complain and blame before actually attempting to move forward. Woman's rights and minority rights impacted the whole country, gay rights impacts a certain small percentage of this country. So can we drop that for argument sake?
We can argue rights in a different conversation, but for now the question is whether we should eliminate the electoral college or not and I'd have to say we should not. There just aren't enough educated people, about politics, to trust that they would make the right decision and for the best interest for all. The majority would probably lean more democratic, which isn't an awful thing, but these people might be hurting themselves more than they realize.
Could we just structure this debate a little better?
John Smith
Oct 23 2012: "I think what Pat is getting at is that the "people" do not have the best interest for each other."
- +1
As opposed to corrupt politicians and Wall Street execs? In any case it's not what "tyranny of the majority" means. "Fad of the day" may be the phrase he was looking for.
"yet some guy decides to step in and talk about civil rights?"
That "guy" correctly interpreted the meaning of "tyranny of the majority", unlike Pat.
"Personally i don't think civil issues need to be addressed first hand here seeing that there are a lot bigger problems in our government right now,"
Maybe if congress spend one afternoon not trying to deny women contraception they could grant gays full civil rights (which would grow the economy). I know, congress actually doing something that America is sometimes said to be all about, instead of money and war, sounds like fiction, doesn't it?
"There just aren't enough educated people, about politics, to trust that they would make the right decision and for the best interest for all."
Then appoint a king, or only elect a lower house, the EC doesn't do one thing to help people make better choices, all it does is give people from smaller states (who are more likely to be bigoted, uneducated rednecks) a bigger voice as well as keeping third parties off the scene. Oh and it enables a candidate with 25% of the popular vote to win the election.Oct 23 2012: "There just aren't enough educated people, about politics, to trust that they would make the right decision and for the best interest for all. The majority would probably lean more democratic, which isn't an awful thing, but these people might be hurting themselves more than they realize "
I dont even know where to begin, this statement is filled with so much absurdity, arrogance, and just ruthless selfishness that it scares me. Should we just let landowners vote, or maybe just whites, woman eventually can get their shot. Who are these people, the uneducated you speak of. Hurting themselves or hurting you? The founding fathers did not give a rats ass about the people hurting themselves they were scared of the people making changes to economic inequality. My guess, you are too. And if thats the case just say it, you don't want people to have a say in their society if that means they will ensure a reasonable standard of living for them and their family. Maybe i am wrong. Please don't give me a black and white oversimplified response about taking responsibility the world is far more complicated than that.
This idea that the people must be guided by there leaders into what is best for them has got to go. Either we live in a society that recognizes all of its citizens as worthy members, who not only should shape their society but must, or we don't. Also keep in mind that under the same justification you offer our government has led to many illegal wars resulting in mass death and rampant barbarism. This sentiment is a very old one if not the oldest and has surely resulted in feudalism, communism, fascism, and every form of oppressive system known to man.Oct 23 2012: The evidence indicates the framers did care, evidence being the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence. No your contention is crap.
Complexity is typically an indicator of someone's lack of understanding. You are economically and politically illiterate. Of course it appears complex.
I agree we have been involved excessively in war imo cronyism to the military complex but at the same time we had 3000 people killed on our land in 2001.Oct 23 2012: Pat, the country is circling the drain because the people have to much power? Is that what your saying? Power should be centralized to those who know how best guide the masses? Maybe I have misinterpreted.


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Product Description
Von Bargen's Platinum Heirloom Amethyst Ring. The ring is entirely hand forged.
The ring is shown with a 4.46 carat beautiful Rare Checkerboard Amethyst. The setting contains 52 round brilliant ideal cut diamonds together weighing 0.66 carats, E color and VS clarity. Call or schedule an appointment to have a ring like this made for you. Center stone included. One of a kind.

subset: commoncrawl


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American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons
American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine
Canadian Orthopaedic Association
Canadian Orthopaedic Foundation
Knee Injury.
Emedicine Consumer Journal.
2001 May 28.
Martin TJ. American Academy of Pediatrics: Technical report: knee brace use in the young athlete.
Najibi S, Albright JP. The use of knee braces, part 1: prophylactic knee braces in contact sports.
Am J Sports Med.
Petersen W, Braun C, Bock W, et al.
A controlled prospective case control study of a prevention training program in female team handball players: the German experience.
Arch Orthop Trauma Surg.
Renstrom P, IOC Medical Commission, International Federation of Sports Medicine.
Sports Injuries: Basic Principles of Prevention and Care.
Boston, MA: Blackwell Scientific Publications; 1993.
Sprains and strains: what's the difference?
American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons website. Available at:
. Updated October 2007. Accessed July 22, 2008.
What are sprains and strains?
National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases. National Institutes of Health (NIH) website. Available at:
. Published March 2008. Accessed July 22, 2008.
This content is reviewed regularly and is updated when new and relevant evidence is made available. This information is neither intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider prior to starting any new treatment or with questions regarding a medical condition.
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text:
Well, it's almost all in the title: on the website, there is "The wee free men" for reading free
and it says: "Chapters 5-9 will be available until 19th August.
Come back again on 20th August to read chapters 10-14. "
But actually there's still no chapters 10-14 online, it ends at page 126 with the end of chapter 9.
What's happening? Will the last chapters going online soon? (and for how long?)


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Faculty interested in securing extramural support for research, training, or service projects should consult with ORSP as a first step, both for prospect information and for assistance throughout the application process.
Location: The Office of Research and Sponsored Programs is located in Holthusen Hall, Room 341.
Primary functions and services of ORSP:
Marquette maintains its own Department of Public Safety as a security and safety service to the University Community. The Department is located on the first floor of Parking Structure I, 749 N. 16th Street. This location houses Public Safety Administration, Patrol Services, Preventive Services, Transportation Services, the DPS Communications Center and Student Safety Programs. Public Safety operates 24 hours a day, every day. Services can be obtained by calling 288-6800. In cases of emergency, students and employees should contact Public Safety's emergency line by dialing 1911 from any campus extension or 288-1911 from any off-campus phone.
Public Safety patrols are made of both the on- and off-campus areas. Public Safety Officers are trained to respond to all calls for help, including crimes in progress, crisis and emergency situations and medical assists. Communications Officers operate the Department's 24-hour Communications Center, and University Service Officers patrol and service the University's parking lots to insure that security and safety are maintained in Marquette's buildings and malls. Proper security within the residence halls is insured by Public Safety's Residence Halls Officers, who are on duty from 11:30 p.m. to 7:30 a.m. daily.
The Department also maintains an outdoor telephone system which includes over 60 Blue Light Phones. Blue Light Phones are located on campus pedestrian walkways, mall areas and within the university's surface parking lots and three parking structures. Six Blue Light Phones are located at the Valley Fields and ten have been installed in near off-campus areas. When a Blue Light receiver is lifted, the user is in direct contact with the Public Safety Communications Center. The communications officer will know the exact location of the caller, which enables assistance to be dispatched immediately.
The Department of Public Safety strives to prevent crime and accidents by aggressively seeking out problem areas before an incident occurs. A wide variety of crime prevention and safety awareness programs are made available to any and all campus groups interested in promoting safety. Popular topics include self-defense, personal safety, office safety, sexual assault prevention, and pepper spray instruction and alcohol awareness. Numerous brochures, the Awareness newsletter and crime statistics are readily available to provide information.
Any member of the Marquette community who becomes involved in a crisis situation can receive the benefits of the department's Victim/Witness Services Program. The program provides resources for those in need of counseling or support services in addition to providing escorts to and from all necessary court-related appearances.
Public Safety operates in accordance with the Federal Campus Crime Reporting Act through the publication of its Annual Report. The Annual Report lists the department's various services at length and includes statistical comparisons of major crimes over the previous three year period. Information racks located in each residence hall, the Alumni Memorial Union, each of the three libraries, and other campus buildings are used to disseminate the wide variety of safety brochures, newsletters, and the Annual Report.
The LIMO (Local Intercampus Mobile Operation) Program provides a means for Marquette students and employees to travel safely between the Marquette campus and its adjoining residential areas. With a fleet of 11 vans, the LIMO Program is capable of transporting all individuals, including those with physical restrictions. Posted "LIMO STOP" signs are located in every residence hall, the Alumni Memorial Union, the Science and Memorial Libraries, the Rec Center, Cudahy Hall, Humphrey Hall, and the Public Safety Office at 749 North 16th Street. These designated stops are visited by LIMO vans approximately every 15 minutes. To request a LIMO transport from any other location, call 288-6363. By showing the LIMO driver a valid Marquette University ID card, free transportation is provided to any location in the on- and near off-campus areas, including University parking lots. The LIMO Program operates from 5:00 p.m.--3:00 a.m. seven nights a week, year round. Students requiring safe transportation after 3 a.m. can receive service by calling 288-6800.
Students in need of permanent, long-term bicycle storage are encouraged to utilize the secured 'Bike Corral' which is located in the basement of Structure 1. This enclosed corral, equipped with a card access entry system, is monitored by the Public Safety video surveillance system. Students utilizing the Bike Corral are required to preregister and then secure their bikes to the racks with high security bicycle locks, which can be obtained from Parking Services for a nominal fee.
Transportation Services operates a Commuter Bicycle Center located near the 16th Street entrance of Structure 1. Several racks are available on a daily basis. Temporary storage lockers are available near the racks for a nominal refundable fee. Overnight or long-term bike storage is prohibited in this area. The area is monitored by the Public Safety video surveillance system and the lot attendant. As with all University bike racks, high security bicycle locks are required. Use of the Bike Corral and the Commuter Bicycle Center is free to all members of the Marquette community. Contact Parking Services at 288-6911 for more information.
A policies and procedures document containing more detailed information about accessibility for all students with disabilities at Marquette is available from the Coordinator of Disability Services, Alumni Memorial Union, 317, P.O. Box 1881, Milwaukee, WI 53201-1881; (414) 288-1645 (voice/TDD). Additional information regarding the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) Workplace Accommodations is available through Human Resources.
Campus Ministry offices are located on the second level of the Alumni Memorial Union.
The Chapel is open from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. every day for visits. A guide is on duty during these times. Arrangements for guided tours for groups can be made through University Ministry. The schedule of liturgies is also available through University Ministry.
Other Museum programs include experimental performance artists and dancers, poets, and musical performers. Lectures and symposia feature artists, historians, critics, and art theorists. Publications, films, and art tours augment the Museum's educational programs. The Museum Shop, operated by the Haggerty Museum Friends, offers art books, magazines, cards, jewelry, and art-related gifts.
The Museum is located on the Marquette campus, at 13th and Clybourn Streets, one block south of Wisconsin Avenue. For more information, please see the Haggerty Museum of Art.
US Bank, with a branch located in the AMU, offers check-cashing services, as do area banks within walking distance of Marquette. Western Union services will be available at US Bank in the AMU by the end of May. US Bank also provides MoneyGrams, a money transfer service similar to that of Western Union.
As additional banking conveniences, seven ATMs are located on campus, including in the AMU (2), Cudahy Hall, Department of Public Safety, Law School, Raynor Library and Straz Tower.
To reduce the risk of carrying large amounts of cash from cashing payroll checks Marquette employees, including student employees, can have their Marquette pay deposited directly into their personal checking account. The Office of the Comptroller, Payroll, can coordinate direct payroll deposits with virtually any bank.
Marquette also offers the MarquetteCASH program, which enables students and employees to carry less cash by using their Marquette ID card as a debit card against their Marquette Cash balance.
The Union Station located on the lower level of the Alumni Memorial Union offers the following: UPS shipping, a full service post office, mailing supplies, money orders, United Limo tickets, bus tickets, MarquetteCASH (good at any food service outlet, select vending machines, Spirit Shop, Annex, photocopying, PrintWise). Hours of operation are: 8:00 a.m.- 6:00 p.m., Monday - Friday and additionally during the school year from 10:00 a.m. - 2:00 p.m. on Saturdays.
Any student or faculty member needing a hearing test, or therapy to correct a speech problem, should make an appointment by calling the Speech and Hearing Clinic, Cramer Hall, North 16th Street; phone: 288-7426. No charge is made for this service.


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Showing 1-25 of 45 results
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While perusing the grounds at the 2011 LSX Shootout held at Lucas Oil Raceway in Clermont, Indiana, (just outside Indianapolis) we were a bit overwhelmed by the amount of show cars in attendance. In previous years, the LSX Shootout has been, for the most part, all about drag racing with some local show cars thrown in for good measure. Not the case at this particular event, as the show car area was stacked with quality cars. And as you'd expect from an event with "LSX" in its title, there was a very high concentration of Camaros throughout.
While making our way through the numerous rows of show cars, we couldn't help but notice an outstanding yellow '10 SS; the pair of non-stock hoodscoops were immediately attention-grabbing. A couple steps around the car revealed custom-vented fenders and LED side-view mirrors. OK, bait taken. This car is just too cool and it needs to be in Camaro Performers magazine.
Pete Petruzelli owns this custom fifth-gen. He happens to be a co-founder of chicago5thgen.com and is also the owner of www.showstopperaccessories.com. The Showstopper deal explains all custom exterior, interior, and underhood bits, and the Chicago5thgen thing tells us this dude is a hard-core Camaro guy.
With no special reason for building the car except, "I just love modifying Camaros. I ordered the car the first day GM began accepting orders for the fifth-gen," Pete explained nonchalantly. "From day one I had every intention of modifying the thing."
And so he did. Within the first week of ownership, he began mocking up underhood accessories for his new, late-model muscle car. "I have always made accessories for the fourth-gen, and the fifth-gen is one of those cars that easily lends itself to quite a bit of personalization. I try to incorporate unique parts that make a statement without them being the absolute focal point."
Pete admits the hood is reminiscent of an IROC Camaro, and he was careful not to totally disturb the factory appeal—it's part of the plan. He also incorporated side fender vents that he feels could have definitely been OE. "Those two pieces were a design collaboration between myself and Vince Collela. On top of his design skills, Vince is an amazing fabricator, so being able to work with him on this project has been a great experience," added Pete. "Between the both of us, we're always coming up with cool ideas to incorporate into the fifth-gen. I think people feel better about their cars when they can add something to make it a little different than the one they're parked next to at any given car show or cruise."
For the most part, Pete's engine is a streetable concoction put together by Speed Inc. Consisting of mostly basic bolt-ons, Speed Inc. provided their specs for a custom grind COMP stick featuring a lift of .617/.607 and duration of 231/237 at 0.050 with an LSA of 112. The remaining performance upgrades include a Mast Motorsports fuel injection system, Dynatech Supermax 17/8-inch headers, and Flowmaster 3-inch American Thunder series bafflers. The ensemble spins the rollers to the tune of 441 hp and 407 lb-ft of torque to the tires.
From the factory, the fifth-gen engine bay sits rather pedestrian in the looks department, so the first thing to go was the less-than-stellar stock engine cover. Some refer to it as a trash can lid. "I've taken a few of my design mistakes from other cars and kicked them up a notch for the fifth-gen," said Pete. His experience and eye for attractive detail led him to produce a plethora of engine accessories and covers designed to hide many of the more unsightly underhood necessities. The Katech aluminum valve covers and custom Showstopper radiator shroud complement Pete's vision of what the fifth-gen engine bay should look like. The throttle body and water pump are also smoothed and painted. Pete subscribes to the age old adage of "less is more" when it comes to making dress-up accessories. "Just because a company makes a product for your car, doesn't necessarily mean it will look good. You have to be careful not to go overboard," Pete insists.


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|Flourless Chocolate Cake
With Spiked Berry Coulis
by Naomi Ross, from Passover Sweet Cooking Class taught at The Center for Kosher Culinary Arts
"Using good quality chocolate is the secret for producing a wonderfully intense and satisfying chocolate dessert such as this - Alprose or Callebaut are both excellent choices. This recipe was adapted from Bon Appétit Magazine."
16 oz. good quality bittersweet baking chocolate, chopped
Preheat oven to 350°F. Brush 9-inch-diameter spring form pan or cake pan with margarine; line bottom with parchment. Stir 1 2/3 cups chopped chocolate pieces and 3/4 cup margarine in medium saucepan over low heat until smooth. Whisk in cocoa and espresso. Cool 10 minutes.
1 1-lb. bag frozen raspberries, thawed and drained (or 3 cups fresh)
Place all ingredients in a blender or food processor and process until the berries are completely broken up. Strain the sauce through a fine-mesh sieve (or cheesecloth) to remove the seeds. Taste and adjust with additional sugar or lemon juice as needed.
Recipes: Passover, Desserts, Cake, Parve, Kosher


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Smart Films
Smart Films is not currently in production and is not accepting new submissions at this time
From filmmakers across the Midwest to indie films shot in our own neighborhoods, we are passionate about movies. Got one to share? Smart Films will be a showcase for short, smart independent films. Duluth public television, WDSE•WRPT, seeks films, Smart Films. We are looking for short films from professional and aspiring filmmakers for possible inclusion in a Saturday night broadcast. If you have any questions or comments send an email to smartfilms [at] wdse [dot] org
We are seeking Smart Films to share with a diverse audience. Films must be original and clean enough for my mother. Subjects? It's up to you. All genres of film will be accepted for review including narrative, documentary, animation and experimental. You must own all rights necessary including music rights in order to grant WDSE•WRPT a license to broadcast your Smart Film on Public Television.
Late night belongs to independent film. Smart Films is home to intriguing but underexposed works culled from film festivals around the Midwest. Smart Films gives filmmakers a rare chance to present their projects to a widespread and discerning audience. Now small-budget projects that can't compete with the major studios get to fly above the radar, while audiences enjoy free access to films they might otherwise never get the chance to see.


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Bethpage-Tribune_1974-03-28 1
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BETHB^GE ^S0& jkjii? . if*W «... tCTH'AQC ™* L ,B ftfePwt f* | I TI OLDBETHIKGE alsoserving I S L A N D TREES PLAINVIEW PbMNEDGE SEAFORD VOL. 8 NO. 19 Thursday, March 28, 1974 "nmnraii f f t niiMrn i n IIMMII urn MII n uriMnnii n m • n 10 PHOTOS-IN-THE-NFW<! Coun,y reaches loca,'y with ""^nutritj0n Pro8»am BflllllinUHHIHUIIUIMllUllHlllllllinilUllllllllinilHHWNIIIIIIIIHWIIU BETHPAOE POSTMASTER HONORED BY ROTARY - Postmaster shown being presented a gift from the Bethpage Rotary Club,- by Mr. Harry Flor (left). IN CONCERT: DALLAS, Roulette Records Recording Artists, will appear in concert at St. Martin of Tours Church, Central Ave. and Broadway, Bethpage Monday evening, April 8. The concert is sponsored by the Holy Name Society. Proceeds will go to St. Martins Church and St. Martins Holy Name Society. Admission is $2. Tickets are available at the door or may be obtained by contacting the concert coordinators: Thomas Conway (931 - 2452) or Bill Parcels (796 - 0221). Doors open at 7 PM. Also appearing on the program is SKYHOOK, a Long Island Folk duo. I X Honor Society inducts new members Costa, Patrick Cummings, Gregory Flash, Kichard Fried, Wendy Fried, Geraldine Gamble, Sandra Goldlhorpe, Cornelius Gore, Gary Greenblatt, Phyllis- Harrington, Linda Janzon, Nancy Lehmann, Johanna Martorana, Clifford Massie, Virginia Mc- Cann, Karen Moller, Denise Moretti, Kichard O'Donnell, Joan O'Mara, Lisa Kolnick, Kevin Seitz, Louis Swift, Salvatore Viola. The selections of members is based on scholarship, service to school and community, leadership and character, according to principal Irving Carroll. The Nassau County Department of Senior Citizen Affairs will begin its "Nutrition Program for Seniors" by March 31 in the communities of Hicksville and Uniondale. '• The program has been operational since early March for those in the Freeport, Roosevelt, East Meadow, North Baldwin and Uniondale areas. Operated through the New York State Office for the Aging, this program is funded jointly by the Federal government under Title VII of the Older Americans Act, the County of Nassau and TOB offers some Revolutionary hobbies A series of five workshops reviving early American crafts will be held in the Plainview-Old Bethpage Library. Under the supervision, of craftswoman Irene Frank, the workshops will cover step-by-step instruction in achieving creative use of ordinary materials and personal expression. Participants 'will produce unique, handcrafted items, ordinarily found in expensive boutiques, that are suited to any decor including centerpieces and flower pots from shells and polished nuts; bracelets and necklaces from old silver forks; ecology or memorabilia shadow boxes from dried vegetables or flowers or fragments of photos; and preserved momentos (invitations, announcements, hairlocks, etc.) mounted on velvet or encaptured in lucite paperweights. The series of five 24 hour craft revival workshops are offered by CAPA (Cultural & Performing Arts Division of the Town's Department of Community Services) to commemorate the nation's Bicentennial celebration The fee is $6 for five weekly sessions. Pre-registration is required and will be accepted prior to April 17 library. For further information, call CAPA Superintendent, Lois Manning. local sponsoring agencies. The $400,000 program plans to be serving approximately 160,000 meals yearly to socially isolated, low income elderly. One hot noontime meal, prepared under the supervision of a Department of Senior Citizen Affairs nutritionist, will be served five days a week to persons 60 years of age and over. In addition to meals, services such as transportation, information., and referral, health and nutrition education, shopping a s s i s t a n c e , t e l e p h o ne reassurance and recreational activities are provided on the premises of each site. There is a minimal or no charge, based on ability to pay. To participate in the program, senior citizens should contact either the sponsoring agency nearest them or the Nassau County Department of Senior Citizen Affairs, One Old Country Road, Carle Place - telephone 5354421. Local sites are the A. Holly Patterson Home for the Aged, 875 Jerusalem Ave., Uniondale and Hicksville V.F.W. Post No. 3211, 320 S. Broadway, Hicksville. CHAMPS: Oyster Bay Town Councilman Salvatore R. Mosca (right) presents trophies to representatives of the Bethpage High School Ice Hockey Team, winners in the High School Division of the Tobay Ice Hockey League. Accepting the awards on behalf of the team are co-captain Bob Walcott (left) coach Dan Cinelli (Second from left) and captain Tom Busitill. The season play-offs were held at the Cantigue Ice Rink in Hicksville. At a ceremony held March 20 in the auditorium of the Island Trees High School, the following new members were inducted into the National Honor Society: Seniors Class of UT?4: Lynne Abruzzo, Lisa Anderson, Jeffrey Brown, Jane BWers, Michele Caslaldo, Richard Garislina, Pamela Koch, Donna Kraemer, Philip Kravitz, Linda Lemer, Jane Marrs, Javan Meinwald, Michael Oliveri, Matthew Saitta, Barbara Vislocky, Debra Watson and Karen Wysocki. Juniors Class of 1975: Kim Anderson, Martha Berke, William Cannella, Mary Kay New York's major annual indoor speed skating event-the stale championships-will be held this year at the Cantiague Park ice rink in Hicksville on Saturday and Sunday, April 6 and 7. The competition, open to registered amateur skaters from throughout the state ages five to adult', is co-sponsored by the Nassau County Department of Recreation and Parks and the Middle Atlantic Speed Skating Association. Spectators are invited, free of charge, to watch the state's top speed skaters compete for statewide honors The competition will run from 1 to 6 PM April 6 and from 1 AM to 3 PM on April 7. The park is located on West John Street in Hicksville. Mrs. Kasatta Veateaicgilia. 87. is "graadnMther" to 32 children and she adanra evervaae of (km. Tab might M M * a little aaasaal and it praaably is, bat Troop CI af Mid-Island Canned of Girl Scoats Neighbored M has adapted Mrs. Veatemegilia as their "Special Grandmother". The girls invite Mrs. Veatemegilia to all taeir meetiags wh> a card signed by all the members. She receives maay gifts from her 'grandchildren" (samples from their project*). The girls share maay things with Mrs. Veatemegilia. bat the mast important thiag they share is LOVE. Troop SI wishes more scoat troops woaM remember our sealer citizens in i f a e special way. "Da something to let them kaaw yaa care," says a troop spokesman.
Object Description
|This is a Newspaper distributed locally within Betpage, Old Bethpage, Island Trees, Plainedge and Seaford.
|Florence Cullem
|Florence Cullem
|Scanned and prepared by Hudson Microimaging, Port Ewen, New York 12466. Date 2009
|Bethpage Public Library
|Unite States
|The Newspaper is in the Public Domain and Digital Rights are held by Bethpage Public. Library.
|Bethpage-Tribune_1974-03-28 1
|BETHB^GE ^S0& jkjii? . if*W «... tCTH'AQC ™* L ,B ftfePwt f* | I TI OLDBETHIKGE alsoserving I S L A N D TREES PLAINVIEW PbMNEDGE SEAFORD VOL. 8 NO. 19 Thursday, March 28, 1974 "nmnraii f f t niiMrn i n IIMMII urn MII n uriMnnii n m • n 10 PHOTOS-IN-THE-NFW a card signed by all the members. She receives maay gifts from her 'grandchildren" (samples from their project*). The girls share maay things with Mrs. Veatemegilia. bat the mast important thiag they share is LOVE. Troop SI wishes more scoat troops woaM remember our sealer citizens in i f a e special way. "Da something to let them kaaw yaa care," says a troop spokesman.
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Last week brought a big legal victory for Greenpeace and other plaintiffs, in a judgment voiding the Forest Service's exemption of the Tongass National Forest from the Roadless Rule. The case, Organized Village of Kake v. USDA was in U.S. District Court, Anchorage.The court order restores protection that had been ended by the Bush administration when it imposed the Tongass Exemption in December 2003. The renewed protection includes 2.3 million acres of pristine wildlands which were otherwise unprotected through measures such as Wilderness designation. Plaintiffs besides the Organized Village of Kake and Greenpeace included tourism businesses and several regional and national environmental organizations. Our attorneys were Tom Waldo of Earth Justice and Niel Lawrence of NRDC.The court order is sweeping and strongly worded, giving us a win on every point. Its wrap-up says:
"Because the reasons proffered by the Forest Service in support of the Tongass Exemption were implausible, contrary to the evidence in the record, and contrary to Ninth Circuit precedent, the court concludes that promulgation of the Tongass Exemption was arbitrary and capricious."
Reaching this point took an unrelenting years-long struggle involving our members, the American public, Greenpeace staff, and our allies. It is a story worth this brief recounting.It all began quietly enough in 2001 in the very last days of the Clinton administration with the adoption of the Roadless Rule, which applied to all national forests including the Tongass. And that should have been the end of the story. Over two million Americans had commented during the rulemaking process, a record number, with 95% of them favoring the Rule. Since then, the Roadless Rule has had to be defended against both the Bush and Obama administrations. Newly inaugurated President Bush immediately recanted on a campaign promise to support the Roadless Rule, suspending its implementation and later beginning rulemaking to exempt all national forests from the Rule. The gambit was to instead turn the fate of national forest roadless areas over to the state governors. Sparing you the several ins and outs of the Roadless Rule in court over the next few years regarding its nationwide application, in December 2003 the Bush administration settled with the State of Alaska on a suit the administration hadn't really defended. It agreed to exempt the Tongass from the Rule, and did so on December 23. As the New York Times noted in an editorial later that week,
"The administration presents the new policy as a necessary tonic for southeast Alaska's depressed economy, and as a necessary response to a state lawsuit that it says it could never have won. The reality is otherwise." It also noted that "the announcement came wrapped in the same deceptive packaging that has characterized much of this administration's forest policy."
Greenpeace had tried to head off this outcome beforehand. The month before, we and several southeast Alaskans met with USDA Undersecretary Mark Rey, trying with no result to dissuade him from his intent to exempt the Tongass. A few days later, in protest, we rendered roadless the circular driveway in front of his Washington office, laying 12 tons of sod over it. Our Executive Director, John Passacantando and several Alaskans were among those arrested. In July 2004 USDA Secretary Anne Veneman announced the Bush administration's intent to eliminate the Roadless Rule nationwide. But Greenpeace was ready for action. That month we established a "Forest Rescue Station" in Oregon, blocking logging roads and calling public attention to the plight of our national forest wildlands under that administration. Then in August we took our ship M/V Arctic Sunrise to the tidal straits of the Tongass National Forest to protest and publicize the already in place Tongass Exemption from the Rule. There, for three days we blockaded a logging road being constructed into a roadless area. The cost of the road to taxpayers was $680,000, and the timber it accessed eventually sold for only $70,000. Such subsidies have been typical on the Tongass. And then that fall you our members and the general public, once again stood up for roadless areas. We helped orchestrate an outpouring of public sentiment, but was you who came through with your 500,000 comments asking the Bush administration to leave the Roadless Rule in place, and to end the Tongass Exemption. In an editorial that seems to fit today's economic times even better than October 2004, a Boston Globe editorial said:
"YEAR IN and year out, the politically powerful Alaska congressional delegation encourages the US Forest Service to build, at taxpayer expense, logging roads in the Tongass National Forest for the benefit of the state's dwindling timber business... Wasteful Forest Service spending on Tongass timber operations is especially ill advised at a time when the federal government is facing a record deficit."
In May 2005, Bush administration rulemaking officially dismantled the Roadless Rule nationwide. We sued, in party with other environmental organizations, as did several western states in a separate suit. In September 2006, U.S. District Court Magistrate Judge Elizabeth LaPorte restored the Roadless Rule; however, the separate rule exempting the Tongass prevented the decision from applying there. As our Executive Director Passacantando said, "Regrettably, one of our most pristine areas, the Tongass National Forest in Alaska remains unprotected even with this decision." Judge LaPorte's decision was affirmed by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in August 2009, again reinstating the Roadless Rule nationwide, except in the Tongass. Skipping ahead to the Obama years, Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack reserved to himself for each Tongass timber sale the decision on whether to allow logging in a roadless area (if any was included) to go ahead. In March 2009 the Forest Service let a contract for road construction for the roadless Orion North timber sale, near Ketchikan. Immediately, along with several co-plaintiffs, we sued. The Forest Service issued a stop-work order, halting the road contractor's mobilization while the court considered an injunction. An injunction was denied in May and road work resumed. In July Secretary Vilsack made a decision to allow logging of the Orion North roadless area timber, and the timber was promptly sold. We had appealed the injunction denial to the 9th Circuit, and there were again denied an appeal in August. But in December, back in District Court, we won the case on its merits, and the timber sale was permanently enjoined.That month, December 2009, we took on the Tongass Exemption directly, as described at the beginning of this blog and leading to last week's sweeping victory, restoring protection to all roadless areas on the Tongass.In an odd coincidence, on February 25 this year, a week before the court's ruling that voided the Tongass Exemption, the Forest Service issued its decision on the Central Kupreanof timber project, dropping all logging in roadless areas from the project. Secretary Vilsack had for many months been sitting on the Forest Service's proferred decision which included substantial roadless area logging and road building. The project is just south of the village of Kake, whose tribal government was the named plaintiff in the Tongass Exemption lawsuit.The end of the story? Not at all, because the fragmented, heavily logged parts of the Tongass need a defense too. Throughout its 65 year history on the Tongass, industrial logging has generally targeted the best or most economic timber – which has generally been the better wildlife habitat. Key habitat elements of the region's major islands are highly stressed, and as one example the population of the region's endemic wolf subspecies, the Alexander Archipelago wolf, was recently determined to be severely reduced.The Forest Service has consistently, tacitly refused to accurately portray the impacts of its timber projects in its environmental impact statements, despite Greenpeace's best efforts to correct that. There are significant problems with the Central Kupreanof timber project's EIS, which we are reviewing now. Right now we have two lawsuits in the 9th Circuit concerning five timbers sales for which impacts to wolves and subsistence deer hunters were greatly underestimated. Stay tuned!
Photo: Part of the Logjam project on Prince of Wales Island, which we are litigating. As with Orion North, we were unable to get an injunction. The case in now under appeal in the 9th Circuit. Sept. 2010.
(Unregistered) paul olson
thank you Larry. The Roadless Rule is good economic policy for southeast Alaska - protect fish and wildlife for public enjoyment, and stop wasting mo...
thank you Larry. The Roadless Rule is good economic policy for southeast Alaska - protect fish and wildlife for public enjoyment, and stop wasting money on fishkilling roads and clearcuts.
The idea that the public should pay to turn the forest into clearcuts is radical and fringe extremist. I thank you for your more moderate efforts to work with the communities for a sustainable economy.
March 10, 2011 at 15:48
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(Unregistered) Archipelagan
For those of you who are reading this, but haven't had the good fortune of knowing the author and his decades of work and accomplishments here, he is ...
For those of you who are reading this, but haven't had the good fortune of knowing the author and his decades of work and accomplishments here, he is among the most tireless, principled, courageous and inspiring defenders of the Tongass, EVER.
Larry, the Tongass thanks you.
March 10, 2011 at 18:01
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(Unregistered) Jessica
i remember back in '02-'03, I was volunteering out of the orange county, ca office. i posted up in huntington beach for weeks and had hundreds of the postcard sized petitions signed by concerned citizens.
i even stood out on main street collecting signatures once after getting my wisdom teeth removed!
as is the case with most environmental battles, it is one step forward and two steps back. so disheartening to think that those things which many people do have concern for are simply shrugged off by a select few just trying to capitalize at whatever greater cost to mankind.
April 30, 2013 at 2:50
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The Gary Johnson Effect
Joe Trippi, a long-time Democratic campaign operative, argues that Gary Johnson—former Republican governor of New Mexico and current Libertarian Party nominee—could have an outsized influence on the presidential election:
[R]emember that Ralph Nader didn't crack 3% of the popular vote in 2000 – yet he completely changed the outcome of that race.
Gary Johnson, meanwhile, is currently polling at 5.3% in the latest Zogby national poll. […]
Johnson could make a major dent in the general election – because he is currently doing better than most people realize in several key swing states.
Most pollsters don't even include Gary Johnson in their polling. But recent polling that included him showed Johnson drawing 9% of the vote in Arizona, 7% in Colorado and New Hampshire – and 13% in his home state of New Mexico
Trippi suggests otherwise, but if Gary Johnson were to make a Nader-like performance in this year's election, odds are best that he would cost Mitt Romney the election. Remember, the Republican Party is still incredibly unpopular, and Romney wins a significant portion of his support from people who oppose President Obama. It's almost certainly the case that Romney's coalition includes a critical number of anti-Obama, anti-GOP voters. If Johnson were to peel some of those voters away, especially in swing states like Ohio and Florida—which have a substantial number of undecided voters—then he would raise Romney's ceiling for victory. It wouldn't guarantee a loss, but it would make a win more difficult.
Of course, it's still too early to say if Johnson will have any kind of an impact. Regardless, it would behoove the Romney campaign to pay attention to his performance, and perhaps begin to appeal to his supporters.
Tue, 2012-07-24 15:48
I think this is nothing more than the "I-hate-Obama-AND-Romney" crowd weighing in. They could never vote for Obama, but are by and large right-wing enough that Romney is not quite satisfying as a choice. This isn't a new phenomenon.
But in the end, historically, either those people have been deciding not to vote at all, or have held their nose and voted for a major party candidate, likely to be Romney in this election. I don't think Romney has to do much to get these votes except for not tear open his shirt to reveal a big red "D" and admit that he's secretly a liberal Democrat planning to raise top marginal rates to 91%, push through a single payer health care system, and make gay marriage not just legal, but required.
And even then he'd get some of them who think, "Well, at least he was born here!"
(I'm so depressed by the state of this election I could just puke.)
matt schutter
Tue, 2012-07-24 20:52
Let's see Gary Johnson is anti patriot act, anti war without congress okay, anti NDAA, anti fed, anti debt, and Pro gay marriage, Pro constitution, Pro small government, Pro living in means. Maybe he is the right candidate for the job, and he has a proven track record as Governor of New Mexico
Maybe the people are catching on to the games that the Republicrats play, Maybe there is no difference between Obama and Romney.
I know that in November I will NOT hold my nose I will be going to the election polls and hold my both middle fingers to both parties and VOTING LIBERTARIAN because I Live Free!
Gene Debs
Tue, 2012-07-24 18:15
The premise of this piece is that if you participate in the election, but do not support the Republican or the Democrat, then you are somehow illegitimate.
Why do supposedly enlightened publications like the Prospect repeat this sort of BS without defending or even acknowledging their underlying premise?
All citizens have an equal right to participate in the electoral process. And they do not become illegitimate simply because they choose not to support the two major parties. Anyone who says otherwise is attempting to relegate everyone but Republicans and Democrats to the status of second class citizens. So let's recognize the term "spoiler" for what it is: political bigotry.
matt schutter
Tue, 2012-07-24 21:04
Let's be real Gary Johnson is not going to be the next president . That does not mean I am not going to vote for him. He is the the only sane man that will be on all 50 states ballot. I hope he does play spoiler to the Nazi Republican Party. May that will wake up the Republican party, because how they treated Ron Paul and his supporters is a damn sin. And the way the Republicans and Democrats treat the Constitution is plain evil.
I rather have a Libertarian President now but I know that will not happen so the second best option is 4 more years of tyranny than a possible 8 with Romney!
Charles Lemos
Wed, 2012-07-25 08:28
I am not a fan of former New Mexico governor Gary Johnson. So he 's right about the drug wars. Great. I hope his participation will focus attention on the issue but he is wrong on just about everything else.
He is most especially wrong on the privatization of prisons. During his governorship, New Mexico became the state with the largest percentage of inmates in privately run prisons. The Land of Enchantment is the only state where over half the prison population is held in privately-owned and run prisons. To be fair to Johnson, when he left office only 44 percent of the prison population was held in the two private prisons built during his governorship.
But by the end of his second term, New Mexico's private prisons had one of the worst safety records and the worst compliance record in getting prisoners to their scheduled hearings within the justice system anywhere in the country. Prisoners were denied timely meetings with their attorneys, they were never brought to appear before parole boards, five prisoners were killed in one year.
And Johnson also introduced mandatory sentencing laws so that under his tenure, the prison population grew just under 20 percent. Still, New Mexico's prison population was only 4,945 in 1998, the year before Johnson left office. In the decade that followed, however, New Mexico's prison population expanded by 38 percent while the overall rate prisoners held in state prisons for the nation as a whole over that time frame is 13 percent. For the industrial-prison complex, New Mexico is truly a Land of Enchantment.
Thu, 2012-07-26 00:49
I think the Democrats and Republicans don't want Gov. Johnson to join the debates because he offers such clear, sensible solutions namely the legalization of marijuana. The more the general public know about Gov. Johnson, the more they like him. Gov. Johnson will shake up this election by pulling votes away from both Obama and Romney. He's got my vote.
Wed, 2012-08-22 21:41
Gary Johnson believes in personal freedom. Neither Obama or Romney do. Libertarians do have solutions for our problems. Neither the Democratic Party or the Republican Party does. Obama offers "Obamacare". Libertarians offer much more. No prescription laws mean you have the legal right to take care of your own health without having to pay a doctor for "permission" to purchase medical drugs. Licensing is replaced with certification. There are multiple tiers of medical providers so you have a choice of whom you want to assist you in maintaining your health. Multiple tiers of hospitals mean you pay only for the services you actually use. Tort reform eliminates the excesses for which lawyers are infamous for. You won't need a vet's prescription to buy heart worm pills for your dog or cat. Instead of contributing to Social Security and Medicare (which are merely transfer programs), you will be able to invest the money now being collected in payroll tax in safe and relatively secure investments that will double in value every decade (Vanguard has two bond index funds that do exactly that and have done so for the past decade including the "crash" from which we are still recovering). An end to American Imperialism will allow reduction of the defense budget to a level about a third of what we spend today. This means much lower taxes than what we're paying now. The level of personal freedom will be far greater in a Libertarian society than it is now. Far greater. Much lower cost of living too once we get "government" off our backs. Does this all sound good? I've been a member of the Libertarian Party since 1983. If you want to learn more, I suggest "Healing Our World" by Doctor Mary J. Ruwart. Try your local public library or Google for her free "e-book". You'll be convinced as I have been that Libertarians "do have the answer we need"!
Sat, 2012-10-06 19:25
There is much to respect about Libertarian politics and Gary Johnson. According to the survey I took at iSideWith.com, I admire even more about Green candidate Jill Stein, too. Unfortunately, one of the two major party candidates is going to win, and the choice between the two is stark enough I'm going to have to give my vote to Barack Obama.
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Mattias Ohlund talks to @LightningTimes at the Brandon Ice Sports Forum.
Who's advancing to the 2nd round of #TBLightning Girl auditions? These girls! See more photos at: http://tbl.li/M5M3XW
Matt Carle meets the media in Tampa.
BJ Crombeen meets the media in Tampa Bay.
BJ Crombeen sits down with TampaBayLightning.com.
3-on-3 Championship photo


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Look No. 002 — Collection 001
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The LBD may appear simple at first glance, but its subtle onslaught of seduction, sophistication, and glamour makes it unforgettable.


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BK - Ballerina Cookbook
Little girls will love the ballet-themed recipes in this cookbook. Inspired by the ballets Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty, and the perennial favorite, The Nutcracker, recipes like Meringue Tutus, Sugar Plum Fairy Pops, and Spanish Dancers' White Hot Chocolate are perfect for themed parties or any day of the year.
Janna DeVore is an editor and writer. She lives along Florida's Emerald Coast.
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