text:
- Arkady Grudzinsky
- Beaverton, OR
- United States
This conversation is closed.
Would you prefer sales tax to income tax?
The power to lay and collect taxes is, perhaps, the greatest power of the government. With this power alone, the government can encourage or prohibit certain behaviors without passing additional laws - it can effectively ban alcohol, tobacco, firearms, etc., can coerce people to marry, to have or have no children, buy gas or "green energy", buy real estate, lock up their money for decades in retirement accounts (both policies make people return a large percentage of their income straight back to the banks withdrawing huge amounts of cash from circulation). Taxes inhibit the taxed activity.
I see several advantages of sales tax compared to income tax:
1. Sales tax inhibits spending, income tax inhibits earning. When money are taxed when spent, not when earned, it may encourage saving and investing rather than spending and incurring debts.
2. One can avoid paying a sales tax on discretionary items by not buying these items - sales tax is less coercive.
3. Sales tax on discretionary items appears to be self-regulating. When it is too large, people stop buying the taxed items, and the tax revenues drop. It's easier to determine the economic effect of sales tax and optimize the sales tax percentage. Whereas, the economic effect of changing income taxes is a lot harder to determine.
4. The tax code would be extremely simple - just a look-up table of tax rates (this may be a naive statement).
5. "Taxing the rich" would mean taxing the excessive luxurious lifestyle. Why would a frugal billionaire who leads a lifestyle of an average citizen be taxed more than an average citizen?
I understand, there is no "correct answer". This is why I post this as a debate. I'd like to know how many people think this way and to hear cases for or against both types of taxation.
Edited 4/13/2013: This seems to be a similar idea: http://www.fairtax.org
Closing Statement from Arkady Grudzinsky
I'd like to thank everyone for the discussion.
There were good points made:
- that sales tax would make "the rich" pay smaller percentage of their income than "the poor";
- that no matter what type of tax we have, "the rich" will still have an opportunity to avoid it - either by spending money overseas or by making money overseas bringing into consideration the necessity of a uniform wold-wide taxation.
- A good discussion whether charity should be voluntary or compulsory and whether people should contribute to society voluntarily or forced to do so.
- Good references to other resources such as Mises institute.
- Interesting point in a video referenced by Krisztian Pinter that taxes have a way of distributing across all layers of society - often what seems to be "a tax on rich" becomes a burden on "the poor" bringing up the idea of a uniform tax (sales or income) with equal percentage for the rich and the poor.
- A good discussion with Pat Gilbert of how government intervention in free market creates artificial incentives and "bubbles" which are unlikely to exist otherwise.
These are just some points worth noticing. I appreciate having a civilized discussion on such highly politicized topic involving social justice, economy, and morality. This is where TED community stands out.
Apr 20 2013: The problem with a sales tax is that it tends to be regressive, meaning that it hits poor people harder. Individuals with less money spend a greater percentage of their income on necessities. On the flip side, taxing luxury items tends to discourage wealthy people from buying them, which means that it isn't nearly as viable of an option if you're trying to create a stream of revenue.
Also, you mentioned that a sales tax could be a benefit in that it discourages spending, but may encourage saving or investment. Investment is good for the economy, particularly in the long run, but saving money is typically only good for the individual. There is such a thing as excessive spending and consumption, but consumption ultimately enhances the strength of the economy. One person's consumption is another person's income. I'm not saying that saving money is bad, or that spending money is completely good, but I don't think that you can consider that type of incentive to be an advantage of a sales tax.
Apr 20 2013: Regarding regressiveness of sales tax, it seems to be #1 objection against it. What do you think of the idea of "prebate" discussed in http://www.fairtax.org proposal?
Good point about negative effect of holding on to money. I think, inflation does a good job discouraging people to hold on to cash. I believe, cash is only good as a medium for exchange. It does not have intrinsic value. I internalized this so much over years that "saving" to me is synonymous to "investing".
Also, it's not completely true that saving is good only for individual. E.g. when a person has cash reserves, he does not burden the society to support him in case of hardship or emergency.Apr 12 2013: in theory, it is a good way. however there are problems with it, namely two major ones, one preference and one practical. the preference one is that many people want the state to "fine tune" the tax system, like apply different taxes to high income people regardless of their spending habits, and lower taxes on families, farmers, young people, old people, nurses, whatever. sales tax does not allow the state to grant special treatment, nor the people to aspire for them.
the practical one is that in most first world countries, the tax is so high, it is practically impossible to collect it in one kind of tax, since people would simply reject to pay it, and go to the black market instead. it is too tempting, they can break the law once, and save themselves a huge amount of money. with a plethora of different taxes, you make the cost of avoiding one tax not worth the smaller sum it saves you.
in my view, the theory of taxation is this. a good tax system is the one that maximizes the income of the state with the less fuss about it. the best tax is a hidden tax. that's why we have corporate taxes. that's why we have inflation, which is a form of taxation. the best tax code is designed by psychologists.
Apr 12 2013: Re: "sales tax does not allow the state to grant special treatment"
Exactly. This is one of the reasons I like sales tax better.
Re: "the practical one is that in most first world countries, the tax is so high, it is practically impossible to collect it in one kind of tax, since people would simply reject to pay it, and go to the black market instead."
This is what I meant by "self-regulation". It does not make sense to increase sales tax beyond a certain point - the revenues will drop because either people will stop buying the product or buy it in the black market. A $1000 tax on a bottle of alcohol will be effectively equal to prohibition and will lead to the same flourishing of crime. This is what I mean when I say that the government does not need to create gun-control laws, nor does it have to prohibit drugs.
I like the idea of hidden taxes. With this in mind, compelling everyone to fill out the tax return form sounds like a bad idea. I find it somewhat humiliating to fill in how much I "owe" with my own hand, signing it under penalties of perjury and sending it to the IRS as a "patriotic" and utterly hypocritical act of "voluntary compliance". I understand, it's a necessary evil. Just take my money, if you must, as much as you must. Just don't make me "voluntarily" sign that I somehow "owe" it.
Who came up with the idea to put the pictures of the Statue of Liberty on all tax publications, return checks, etc.? What kind of twisted logic associates taxes with liberty?
Mike Colera
Apr 20 2013: Again, there are circumstances that have some in financial straits. These need to be addressed by all of us. I have made the point that small local soup kitchens seem to help feed people better the the fancy government offices handing out food stamps. My point is that there are and may always be those among us that need help and our national conscience dictates that we help those who need help.
- +1
My problem is that the Federal Government takes tax revenues and does wasteful things with it.
One of a thousand examples, our Department of Education gave out hundreds of billions to young students without thought and consideration. Universities raised tuition and fees to "use" this money to educate these young students.
Today, we have tens of thousands of sociology majors out of work and owing 100s of billions in loans. Smart???
We have disabled veterans, who are waiting years to get resolution on their deserved benefits. I am one, who has been waiting for a few years, myself. The "joke" around our VA hospital is whether or not we'll live long enough to get our final disability settlement. Actually a few of my colleagues didn't make it. Now that is what we pay our taxes to accomplish.
Apr 20 2013: Mike, I also have a feeling that private charitable organizations are good at what they do - charity while bureaucracies are good at what they do - bureaucracy. When politicians give away public money, it seems to be done not because of the concern for the cause, but to get votes for the next reelection. It has nothing to do with charity. Doing "charity" with other people's money to help myself is hypocrisy, not charity. This is why we have bloopers like $400 mln facility for homeless and millions given away to faux "victims" of hurricanes. The real beneficiary of the $400 mln expense was the contractor who built the facility and the politicians themselves who, perhaps, got a few votes for "caring for the poor".
I do believe, however, that taking care of disabled veterans is the responsibility of the government who caused the disability by sending people to war. This should be a part of defense budget and included into the cost of wars. I don't view this as charity or a "social program". Charity from private individuals towards veterans is due on top of that.Apr 20 2013: Regarding the poor it should be noted that this is a category of income very few people stay in the same category for long poor or rich. A category is not flesh and blood people.
People talk about how unfair the taxes are on the rich with the loopholes. By the way a flat tax would eliminate a lot of this thus raising revenue.
Another thing to look at on this is that the poor don't pay taxes either. For starters 50% of all income tax payers pay 0, this is a fact. Additionally public transfers (welfare) does not show up in the statistics so the income of the poor is about 35% higher than is reported. Not to mention how much they make by working for cash.
So the regressive notion is very debatable. Not to mention the fact that when you pay people to be poor they get good at being poor just as when you pay people to be disabled they get real good at being disabled. This is great for politicians seeking votes but it creates a sense of entitlement which is probably worse in the UK but we are not far behind in having enslaved citizens who have less lived lives.
Apr 20 2013: You make some good points Pat.
One thing I'm curious about is the fact 50 percent of the money they pay in tax is reimbursed in the form of tax returns. They don't get all the money they pay in back in taxes via the refund.
The govenment keeps some of it so they do pay taxes. A typical family making $40,000.00 a year pays in 40000 X .28 = 11200.00 dollars in taxes. Of this amount they receive an average of $3,000 in refund. That's $11,200 - $3,000 = $8,200 in taxes they pay each year. So these people are payiing 8.2/40 x 100 = an effective tax rate of 20.5%
To pay zero tax, you would have to earn $24,200 a year, and will pay no taxes because the $11,600 standard deduction plus four exemptions of $3,700 each will lower their taxable income to zero [source: Williams].
A married family with only 1 child will pay a $3,700 in taxes.
These families still have to pay sales tax which eats up the remainder of their funds, mostly leaving them with large debt (in one form or another) each year.
The solutions is to raise the lowest income to $40,000 so everyone will have to pay taxes, or live with these lower income families paying zero taxes, which seem fair to me. It's impossible to live on just $24,000, send you kids to college and save money. That comes to: housing ($800)+ utilities (200) + auto insurance (110) + junky car payment (250) + transportation gas of (125) = $1,485. Leaving them $285 in the red each month. Lets not forget the have to pay the governmet a total of 300 each month in take out taxes leaving them a total of $585 in the read each month.
These are the people who need a hand up in our society. The reast of us are doing great and should stop trying to force taxes on them. If there is a difference in revenue - expenses the tun the governent then we can raise taxes on the upper earners as well as the upper middle class. The reast are barely making it as it is.
Seems simple to me.
Apr 20 2013: I thought the marginal fed tax (on 40k) was 15% not 28%?
It is commonly known that 50% of the people pay 0 tax on the federal level. Even if that exact number is debatable the fact that a percentage approaching 1/2 is true.
Apr 20 2013: It's true. About ½ don't pay any taxes but not all these people are poor.
Approximately 71% of the working population (92,594,960 people) made between 1-50k last year.
Income Number of people % of us revenue.
$50,000 – $75,000 17,396,916 13.374%
$75,000 – $100,000 9,247,839 7.110%
$100,000 – $200,000 8,422,603 6.475%
The total of people who actually paid tax revenue is 130,076,445 out of an eligible to work population of 170 million people. *interesting note: (170M-130M)/170 X 100 = 23% unemployment rate.
With a population of over 300 million people paying sales taxes whither or not contributing this money to the general tax fund would be an alternative system would depend on how much tax they payed in.
Does anyone have an idea how much money this is?
bart hsi
Apr 25 2013: I think that Pat is right. The tax rates for gross income of $40,000 before deduction of the standard deduction and exemption for a young couple amount to $19,000 in 2011 tax rate, and $19,500 in 2012 rate. The actual tax for 2011 would be $2,304 for a rate of 5.8%, and tax of $2,229 for 2012 and a net rate of 5.6%. Even if you count the $40,000 as after the std deduction and the exemption, the actual tax would only be $6,131 which is 15.3% of the "taxable income" of $40,000. In either case, the tax amounts could easily be found in a table at the end of the "Tax Guide" for 2011 or 2012, no computation is needed.
- 0
So the amount of tax as $11,200 for a gross income of $40,000 is way off the target.
Let me propose a tax system of the combination of the income tax and value-added-Tax (VAT), the latter is easier to manage than sales tax. The Federal Income Tax could be 0% for income of under $25,000, and 5% for $25,000 to $50,000, and 10% for $50,000 to $120,000, then a flat rate of 20% for all income over $120,000, all are based after reduction of exemptions and standard deductions but no itemized deductions. The tax rates and deductions will be adjusted for inflation. The shortage from the income taxes would be supplemented by the VAT.
Apr 25 2013: How much revenue would this generate for the running of our country?
How much revenue do we need to properly fund the operating costs of our country?Apr 20 2013: I like your points that people get better at what they are paid to do. A good point also that "rich" or "poor" is a subjective term. The limits between "rich" and "poor" constantly move, usually up. For example, if we define "rich" as making $250,000 per year today and make them pay through the nose, in 5 years we will find 50% of the population paying through the nose due to inflation.
I, personally, don't like counting other people's money and making judgments. E.g., my family, perhaps, spends more than average on food because we buy, mostly, organic and gluten-free food. So, someone looking at my monthly expenses might consider such spending a luxury and advise to shop in lower-end grocery stores. But consider that I have 3 kids allergic to gluten, fish, eggs, and many other things. On the other hand, I know people who live very frugally to afford, say, a family vacation or to buy expensive (from my point of view) bicycles for the whole family. Everyone has different priorities. I don't like to make a judgment of what to consider a luxury or a necessity for others and don't like when others make such judgments as well - something I hear a lot in discussions regarding who is rich and how much they should pay. That "rich" person making $1,000,000 a year may have a sick and disabled child and a wife with cancer. I don't want to tell people that they "ought to contribute to society".
Apr 20 2013: Inflation? Didn't you hear what Morgan Stanley said? Inflationis on the slide. :)
I agree with you inflation is going to eat us alive before consumers quit buying all together just to eat. This, of course, means another crash is on the way.
I agree about people's privacy concerning their money. I think what ever tax system we have it should be fair and take the facts into consideration that no one person is an island unto themselves. We all pitch in and should have a fair share of the profits.
A world without garbage collectors is a real stinky place to work and live, in fact, it could be dangerous to our health.
An idea without laborers is soon blown away by the wind of time. Laborers with no direction or guidance are living on their savings.
For many decades now, there has been a sense of disparity about how the working class is loosing value and the upper class is buying up all the assets. 2009 showed us this was indeed the case. Now, the wealthy own everything and control the ebb and flow of commodities, including housing. We are at their mercy. The only way we can show our discontent is to stop being consumers. Rich people who depend on consumerism are severely affected by consumers who keep their money in their pocket.
Yes this is a two edged sword. manufacturing, employment, vs consumerism are locked in a battle of survival. I think if more money is put into the pockets of consumers and an environment is created that alleviates their fear of economic collapse, things will get better.
The government needs to scale itself down while accomplishing the same amount of work.Apr 22 2013: A flat tax would not raise anymore money than the progressive system we have now. It would, place an even greater burden on those making $24,000.00 and less each year, reduce the amount paid by the rich and increase the burden on the middle class.
I think the progressive system we have is more flexible, that is, it can be changed easily to deal with the fluctuations that occure in our economy and geopolitical climate.
There is no real solution but to have a constitutional amendment that calls for a balanced budget each year, with a ceiling on borrowing. This system would only work if everyone pitched in and did their part, in their own private economic situations, that is, keep personal debt to a minimum and bite the bullet during hard times.
Apr 22 2013: The poor get about 30% more than is reported as income because of the way they report government transfers. This in conjunction with the fact that very few people stay in any one category overstates, makes this concern more conjecture than reality.
The very idea of income tax is backwards as it discourages people from producing. Sales tax is the corollary and discourages consumption and encourages production.
It eliminates a huge expense doing your tax return.
The balanced budget idea imo would not work as it would just encourage accounting contortions.
The solution is an educated constituency that would force the government to shrink (think emaciate)
Apr 22 2013: And I should take your word for it because?
How do they report government transfers?
I agree people are financially fluid, economiclly speaking, but what exactly does that mean to you?
Sales tax is a means to gather revenue to support local governments -period. There is no traffic control attached to it's function.
A balanced budget is necessary. any contortions can be dealt with by the legal system. Those obeying the law outnumber those who don't.
Good luck educationg the world and converting them into honest hard working, emphatic human beings. That is the ultimate idealism but we are far from that epoch.
We have to deal with what is ubtainable and pertinate to the situation at hand. More taxes on the rich will help out, but not solve the problem. We need to cut down the size of govenment without decreasing it's effectiveness, if that's possilbe.
Technology can help but it will require initial expenditures. We need to look at it like this:
I can't cut my lawn because the lawnmower is too heavy and I have a sloping run. I need to convert my lawn mower to a remote controlled machine. I can't afford to buy one so I need to build it myself. It takes time to save the money and time to do the work. In the end, I will be able to more effectivley deal with my lawn without hurting my body. I can also let my neighbors (in simular circumstances) borrow my lawn mower so they won't have to suffer the expenses. This will reduce the cost of cutting many lawns, producing more effective work).
We need to bond together and help one another in a more effective manner - a real ideal that we can manufacture- other than everyone going out and buying (one) device that can serve many. This will, of course hurt our consumer economy but it will, in the end, make us more effective for less money. The economy will adjust, eventually.Apr 22 2013: Just read the first paragraph of this:
I'm sure there are more references but I have heard that 30% of the lowest quintiles income is in transfers that don't show up as income.
Regarding the balanced budget there are always unintended consequences with this sort of legislation. As they say the devil is in the details and it will likely not get what it is stated to get which is typically the case EG the department of energy, education, homeland security, etc
It can easily be reduced without losing ANY benefit
The education is inculcated by the culture which is the real problem as it teaches instead entitlement.
A remote control lawnmower is a cool idea.Apr 22 2013: There is always a reason for how people behave Pat. Note this comment:
"Yes: On net, average federal income tax rates are negative -- post-tax income exceeds pretax income -- for the two lowest income quintiles. But that's not the same as marginal tax rates, which measure the amount of money taken out of each additional dollar earned. It's the marginal rate, most importantly, that creates the disincentive to work." ~http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-25/the-working-poor-pay-high-taxes-too.html
When you have a couple of million dollars to make some deals, your odds of making a profit increase. When you are a hard woking, lower income person, trying to get ahead in the world and change your lifestyle it's almost impossible to do because you can never make enough money or qualify to borrow to move ahead.
So, why even try? Why not just sit where you are (still working hard) and get used to the situation? They are not slaves. In the US, everyone has the opportunity to get ahead and become rich. As long as their marginal rate is so high, they will continue to be at the bottom of the pile.
Apr 22 2013: To give you an idea of how specious Bloomberg's conjecture is consider that only 5% of the people who were in the lowest quintile in 1975 were still there in 1991.
What is wrong with this thinking (of this successful businessman who is a stupid economist, similar to Warren Buffet) is that they are comparing categories instead of people. Would you compare baseball hitters the same way ie by a category instead of the hitter? Of course not yet people listen to this or Elizabeth Warren which is pure propaganda.
Again politicians only care about getting elected and will make up anything in order to achieve that end.
Apr 22 2013: I understand you suggesting. But, since the crash, many more people make up that quintile. It's probably higher. War manufacturing helped to create jobs in 1975 and the war ended that year also -those jobs went away.
We have the internet Pat. We don't need politicians anymore. We need to come together and work things out ourselves. There is a large movement taking place that concerns sustainably living. All that is required to get in the game is to start a garden at home, by any means, and learn to live frugally. Better health, less expence, and more effecient use of energy are some of the benifits. We don't need our politicians permission to get in the game.
As these people come together, they also form a large voting lobby that will control the politicians, forcing them to do our bidding. We have to start the ball rolling, not the politicians.
They have control because we gave it to them, We can regain that control by using effective communications and individual persistance and hard work. The great thing about growing food is the initial capital costs are almost negligable.Apr 24 2013: Pat,
I can't believe you called Warren Buffett (mispelled) a "stupid economist."
Clearly you know little about his economic knowledge, which is undoubtedly far above your own (mine too)Apr 22 2013: The Keynesians would have you believe that the economy should be an even level line and that they can keep it that way. This is funny because the Austrians will tell that the bubbles are created by the very ones who claim to fix it.
If left to it's own devices the free market levels things out right quick as this is just a natural phenomenon. Which is controlled by the incredibly elegant mechanism of self interest.
Yup the tail wags the dog, what I'm saying is that we need to dock (cut off) the tail
Apr 23 2013: Yes indeed.
We know how the course runs because we have run it before. I remember 73 and 82. Now I can say I remember 09 and 10.
Our economy today is driven by greed, which is not necessarily a bad thing for those who win the game. Every now and then some companies come along and start to dream and we are soon chasing asteroids or putting together the first Mars colony. The problem is that those who have established their empires don't want to see them fade away or disappear all together. They have a hard time living with what they have made because they see it wither and along with it the power the money gave to them.
In the end it's all about Dreams or Power.Apr 25 2013: Nicholas Heins
OMG I'm so embarrassed to have committed such a faux pas, btw if you really want to rub my nose in it write it like this Warren Buffet [sic], that is the epitome of scorn from a superior.
Warren Buffet is not an economist at all. He is an investor and from what I hear more lucky than good at investing. You bet I know more about economics than he, not that he raises the bar.
Mike Colera
Apr 19 2013: I am not sure on how to comment on this. It's like asking would you like to be shot by a firing squad or hung from a tree.
- +1
So, living in a complex world, I understand that for the use of public goods and services, that are some fees are to be paid. There is no free lunch so to speak. I have lived where there are income taxes, VAT taxes, sales taxes, and the list goes on. I read somewhere that the average American who is probably not as badly taxed as other peoples, pay some 75 taxes of various sorts and sundry fees to public entities. I am not sure they could be brought down to just one. But, if I had to pick, I guess I would pick a simple single rate income tax. I would allow a simple deduction for those who live in poverty. It all should happen on one piece of paper on one side. All those other taxes on corporations and businesses and death and and and be eliminated. Businesses just add taxes to the price of goods. So, that's just paying more taxes through other people. Maybe half of the tax money would go to the city, 3/8 to the state and 1/8 to the federal government.
BUT Taxes aren't the real problem, it's how they are spent. My city spent over $400 million on a shelter for homeless . It's a beautiful campus, like a resort. Most homeless still sleep under the bridges. They also spend over $30 million a year for public childcare facilities for poor people who can't afford childcare.
It's so the single Moms can go find jobs, most don't. Still we got a lot of potholes to be filled, but not enough money in the city budget. The state is not much better and don't get me started on Federal waste. 22 Federal Departments and over 50 cabinet level offices. We got a Department of Labor and a Department of Business (Commerce), wouldn't make more sense to have one department to be the referee between the two. The duplication goes on and on. My problem isn't so much about taxes as it is about waste.
Apr 19 2013: Re: " I would allow a simple deduction for those who live in poverty."
What do you think of the idea of "prebate" from http://www.fairtax.org? The idea is that everyone pays the same tax rate (the site advocates a "consumption tax", but it could be a flat income tax as well), and the government pays to each person, regardless of income, a sum equal to poverty level, however it's defined - a bare minimum to survive. I think, it's a good idea. It's clean as a whistle, does not discriminate between rich or poor, black or white, fat or thin, young or old, takes care of child credits, dependent exemptions, social security, etc., and allows those who live in poverty to pay 0 taxes or have a tax benefit while those earning/spending more to pay progressively larger percentage. The prebate, in my opinion, should be a bare survival minimum. It should not allow for any level of comfortable living or it will discourage work.
You pointed out the fundamental problem with charity. While there is this Christian commandment "Give to the one who asks you", you never know how the money you give to the poor will be spent. They may be spent on drugs and alcohol doing absolutely no good to society. Charitable giving, in my opinion, does more good "to the soul of the giver" by making him kind and compassionate than it does to the one who receives. With this in mind, coercive charity through taxation does no good to anyone. It perpetrates hypocrisy and corruption. It does not make the givers kind and compassionate, and it is dubious that it does any good to those who receive either.Apr 20 2013: Government waste works like this:
You have an uncle who makes Uniforms for the TSA. You rangle a contract with your uncle to purchase, say, $50 million dollars worth of cheap uniforms, which the contract out to mexico to manufacture. You uncle gives you a a nice kickback of 2.5 millon dollars (over time) in forms that are hard to track.
While you may actually need the uniforms (eventually) They could have been purchased directly from the Mexican manufacturer in the first place for $12 million dollars, cutting the uncle and his govenment representative family member out of the picture.
This happens all the time with our elected officials and their inter-agency, manager friends.
If computers were properly used, the efficiency of the governmet would increase dramaticly in just a couple of years. Medical cost could be halved by applying the same process.Apr 18 2013: So flat taxes and sales taxes are basically ways to increase taxes on the poor and decrease taxes on the rich. So I ask this question. What impact do you think this would have on the wealth distribution of the United States? I assume from your point #4 that you think the rich pay too much taxes and should be taxed less. So I guess I would also ask if you feel the tax code should be structured to make the poor pay more and the rich less and if the problem with our country is that the poor have too much and the rich too little?
You may believe in a tax system that maximizes pain. So you may believe that you should tax a family deciding between heat and food for their children $200 instead of taxing a "frugal billionaire" $200 that will not impact his life. Or perhaps you work for a credit card company because this would be a windfall for credit card companies and would in effect raise the rate of taxation for the poor.
Apr 18 2013: William, I'm not sure how you assume what I think from #4 beyond what it says. This is a debate. I presented my position in order to hear opposing arguments, not to push any agenda. I'd like to open my mind, consider things I have not considered before, and other people to do the same. Have you read the proposal on http://www.fairtax.org? I have not heard any opinions on the idea of "prebates". It seems to me that people approach the question with preconceived opinions and are not willing to consider any alternatives or or facts.
I understand the argument that taxing consumption instead of income, people who spend most of or more than what they earn will pay larger percentage than people who spend a fraction of it. But... I also believe the following (let me know if you disagree):
1. I believe that "us vs. them" mentality is harmful for society. Blame games grow into mutual hate and violence - wars between classes, religious groups, etc. I believe, "1% vs. 99%" is a harmful view, in principle.
2. I believe, "taxing the rich" is an illusion. It's like having a "no smoking" area in a restaurant where smoking is allowed in the same room or an area in a swimming pool where people are allowed to pee in the water. Krisztian has shared a video below http://youtu.be/P6hzEodMAyU. The video has an example of who ended up carrying the burden of a 10% sales tax on yachts and private jets over $100,000 imposed by Bush I. One might think, such tax wouldn't affect "the poor", right?
Tax burdens have a way of leveling across the society. You tax corporate income, and the corporation will either lay off workers or increase prices on its products passing on the buck. If it does neither, it may go bankrupt and close altogether. You tax the billionaires with either income or sales tax, and they will move the money and the jobs overseas leaving "the poor" at home without either. Am I incorrect?
Apr 19 2013: I can speak to the effects on the boat industry which is tru dat
It is an interesting idea to privatize everything at the very least we should consider the venerable Mr Rothbard.Apr 18 2013: Moving and managing money and business overseas to avoid income taxes is risky and costly. Buying products overseas and paying high shipping costs or buying the products on the black market to avoid sales taxes is risky and costly too. When people prefer such risk and cost to paying taxes, it means that taxes are too oppressive. They need to be adjusted to maximize the revenue. Maximizing the tax revenue should be the goal, not "justice". Justice cannot be measured. Revenue can.
So, given that taxes flatten themselves anyway, and the question is not "who to tax?", but, rather, "how much?" without killing economy, I believe that sales tax allows for better and faster economic feedback than income tax.
I like the idea of "prebates" from http://www.fairtax.org. It creates a guaranteed income for everyone. The poor who make less than the poverty level will have tax income, the middle class would effectively pay a small tax, whereas the rich will pay the largest percentage. That's what it seems. I have not heard any reasonable arguments to the opposite. I'd love to.Apr 18 2013: The tax rate for both options would be the determiner. All things being equal, sales tax is the more fair.
Apr 18 2013: Perception of fairness depends on how we think of numbers - in terms of percentages or in terms of dollar values. The main argument against the sales tax is that those who spend all of or more than what they make will pay a larger percentage than those who spend a fraction of what they make. However, 20% of $20,000 is $4,000, while 10% of $1,000,000 is $100,000. Who pays more?
"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination."
Bernie Amell
Apr 17 2013: Arkady
- +1
I am a supporter of consumption taxes as a more mature and responsive source of money to fund our collective services and interests (government), than income taxes. Consumption tax is a larger frame than simply sales tax. It includes, for example, fuel used in transport trucks, ocean freighters and agricultural equipment. The net effect of consumption taxes is that they send a price signal to the market (that is, to all of us). The meaning of that price signal is that there is a serious cost to the earth and the rest of us in consuming material and energy. We cannot avoid consumption, but we can choose to reward and reinforce inventions and behaviours that create qualitative value for society with the minimum consumption.
The price signals sent by income taxes, without proportional taxes taken from consumptive industries, sends a perverse set of price signals. Full employment is devalued, while the price of shipping goods from distant places or from energy inefficient production is subsidized. Faced with these price signals any corporation must focus its creative talent on exploitation of off shore jobs rather than jobs at home. On shore industries that are highly consumptiive (ie. irrigation agriculture of bulk grains) are subsidized while industries that are less consumptive and job creative (ie. permaculture farms) are discouraged.
I look for the day when there are no income taxes and we charge every industry or carrier that sells to our market is charged for the all of the energy and material consumption involved in the production AND transport of their goods to us. I am not arguing for an increase or decrease in taxation - save that for a different debate.Apr 17 2013: related: mises institute seminar, titled the "Taxes Are What We Pay for an Impoverished Society", videos available on youtube here:
(more on the same channel)
Apr 18 2013: Much of this is true, but controversial. It's hard to imagine a society where taxes are paid voluntarily, in the amounts people feel like paying in proportion to the benefits they receive.
A few interesting thoughts - income tax on benefits and salaries received from the government is a strange concept. It reminds me the hoax from commercials where they claim you will "save" $20 on a $100 spent. That's $80 expense, not $20 savings. In the same way, $20 taxes paid on $100 received from taxes is $80 tax consumption, not $20 tax payment.
Interesting thoughts on how "taxes on the rich" are paid by everyone else except the rich. When a corporate income is taxed and the corporation has to jack up the price on its products or lay off people to avoid losing money, who pays the tax?
Apr 18 2013: it is hard to imagine a society without a king. it is hard to imagine a society without a slavery. it is hard to imagine a society with universal suffrage. these arguments could have been, and possibly were uttered. but history taught us that these things pretty much possible, and even desirable. today these arguments sound incredibly shallow. so why the same argument is worthy with imposed taxes or a coercive state in general?
Apr 18 2013: This is a very good point.
However, don't you think that "king" and "slavery" have simply changed names and forms? The oppression still seems to be there. Whether you have to submit to the will of the king or to the will of the democratic majority - one way or the other, you have to give up your interests and money. Doesn't a 25% income tax amount to involuntary servitude from January till the end of March? Even without tax, there seems to be no way out of slavery through mortgage payments and credit card interest.
Universal suffrage seems to be a misnomer too. Teenagers don't vote, inmates don't vote, immigrants don't vote (even legal immigrants who do pay taxes and contribute to society) anyone who is considered "incapable of making decisions" is pushed aside. But who decides who is "incapable", how and why?
Can these "injustices" be completely eliminated rather than replaced by other injustices?Apr 18 2013: that's a good point. slavery can be seen as a concept. we can say, slavery is owning someone else's time (=life). i can own all of his time, in which case he is my slave. or i can own a part of his time, which does not have dedicated name, but it is in essence the same thing. tax is partial ownership of a person's life. of course it is better to be partially owned. just like it is better to be mildly hurt than badly injured. similarly, it is not a different concept if one rules all the others, or 51% rules the 49%. but clearly, more people are satisfied with the latter arrangement.
what we do for many hundreds of years, if not thousands, is that we identify and eliminate, one after the other, instances of slavery, theft and murder. the powers that be always tell us that their rule, theft and murder is different, it is just and it is in the interest of the people. but it only takes time to see through these lies, and make the next logical step toward the eradication of aggression.
side note: in my world, there would be no universal suffrage, there would be no voting at all. but i agree that if we take democracy seriously, everyone should have exactly one vote, criminals, mentally disabled, infants, does not matter.
Apr 18 2013: I think, we are on the same page. In our "ideal world" people don't pay taxes, the poor and the sick are taken care of by the voluntary charity of the rich and the healthy, all services are provided by the market for a fair market price, mutually agreed upon and paid voluntarily; there is no need for courts and police because there is no crime and injustice; and voting is not necessary because there is no need to push or enforce any legislature on anyone.
But while we are working at achieving these ideals and try to eliminate slavery, theft, extortion, and murder, we seem to need police, courts, and jails, at the very least. We also need to define what constitutes crime and how to deal with it. Hence, we need voting, the institutions of power, and we need to collect taxes to maintain them. And these institutions of power and taxes which are a form of robbery corrupt the society creating oppression, injustice, theft, extortion, and murder which they are supposed to eliminate.
It's a vicious cycle. It's not unique to society. Immune system is supposed to protect our bodies, but when it is under-active or over-active, we start suffering from HIV, MS, celiac disease, hypo- and hyperthyroidism, allergies, autism, psoriasis, etc. These are just few examples of autoimmune diseases. Most of today's incurable diseases are autoimmune disorders. They are the toughest to address.Apr 18 2013: we did not get rid of kings because nobody wants to be a king anymore. we did not get rid of slavery because people don't want to own slaves. we find ways to ... so to speak "convince" those that want to initiate aggression not to do so. stable society is the one that can defend itself against aggressors, not the one that has no aggressors. we can find ways to operate a free society despite all the wrongdoers and selfish people out there. we do want law enforcement, guards and all that stuff. we just don't necessarily want a coercive organization provide those.
Apr 18 2013: I hope, "we" will find a way. In my opinion, to achieve society without coercion and greed, "we" need to quit thinking that "they" (the 'rich', 'the 1%' or whoever) should be forced pay more to provide benefits for "us" ('the 99%').
Not that "they" shouldn't pay. I just think that forced charity isn't charity at all. It can only be sustained by force and coercion and, ultimately, doesn't make anyone more kind or rich.Apr 19 2013: but we don't need a society without greed or attempts of coercion. of course it would be good, but unrealistic in our foreseeable future. we need systems that protect us, or help us protect ourselves, from aggression. the question is who operates, owns such systems, and what their jurisdiction is. the state is such a system, but it is a monopoly on an arbitrarily chosen territory, it's jurisdiction is everyone in the territory, and participation is not voluntary. this system is obsolete.Apr 12 2013: The U.S. in the past had roads, public utilities and financed wars without any of the taxes you mention and no inflation for at least 100 years. They financed this with tariffs on imports, which some say was the reason for the civil war as the north would have lost most of its funding from tariffs.
To me I would prefer to see national Sales Tax but only if there was no other tax. As this would encourage saving and discourage consumption. This would also discourage inflation.
Otherwise a flat tax instead of a marginal income tax. This would reduce the loopholes and eliminate a lot of unnecessary expense for calculating taxes.
Apr 12 2013: Thanks, Pat. I'm thinking along the same lines. Not to mention that without income tax the government would have a lot fewer opportunities to mess with people's personal choices, such as marriage, parenting, charity, or investing. Import tariffs can also easily fix the trade deficit and the problem of exporting jobs to China. The government does not need any sophisticated Acts of Congress to fix economy, health system, gun control, inflation, etc. It seems to be possible to do all this with a simple and wise tax policy.
Apr 12 2013: Yes the less funding of imbeciles the better.
Tariffs are a bad idea as they create a tit for tat type deal and comparative advantage becomes terminated at that point. This was tried by Hoover with the Smoot Hawley act in 1930 and instantly shot up unemployment. A truly moronic action by congress and Hoover.
At the end of the day it requires an educated constituency that can be lobbied for this sort of legislation.
Apr 12 2013: I did not know about Smoot Hawley act. Well, then I'm wrong regarding tariffs fixing trade deficit and job export to China.Apr 12 2013: It is a misnomer that the Jobs going to China is the problem or a problem at all. The reason is the comparative advantage
This is the best talk on TED explaining how it works:
Apr 13 2013: Great talk. Thanks for the reference.
Matt Ridley is absolutely correct saying that nobody knows how these products are made. People who designed the computer I'm using now have no idea how to make a processor, and people who make the processor have no idea how the operating system works. The damn thing does not have a "Creator"! It also "evolved", just like humans.
And you are right too. With our current ability to communicate over the globe instantly and make physical deliveries overseas within days, the globalization is just inevitable.
And yet, there is nothing like ripe tomatoes from the vine grown in your own backyard...
Jim Ryan
Apr 16 2013: I'd have to say that jobs going to china is not a misnomer, if a person considers reciprocity. It seems you and Arkady have not. By saying such, do you hope people will find you intelligent? If you're wrong, will others know it and challenge you, knowing it will likely anger you and Arkady if proven? If not, don't you spread ignorance?
- 0
Just saying. We all like to talk, but perhaps we should present things as questions, instead of leaving ourselves open to being shown our own ignorance, that will make most all people angry, while it makes most people reluctant to join the conversations.
The only thing I learned in that Ted talk, was that no one person knows how to make a pencil or mouse.
Did you or Arkady learn more things from that talk? If so, what?Apr 13 2013: Cool that is my favorite video on TED
Yes and do you see how comparative advantage creates jobs and is a win win situation?
Apr 13 2013: I agree. On the same note, it seems to be an illusion that illegal immigrants "take jobs away" from U.S. citizens.Apr 13 2013: Yes the truth is we would be screwed without the immigrants at both ends of the spectrum. No indigenous person is willing to work in the fields or many other menial jobs and the other end of the spectrum with high tech what % of the indigenous graduate with a BS or better?
One caveat the state gives a lot of perks to the immigrants which gives them an unfair advantage over the indigenous. Calif has 12% of the population of the U.S. with 33% of the welfare.Apr 26 2013: This was a good thread
Apr 26 2013: Thanks, Pat. I think so too.Apr 26 2013: There is NO connection between taxes and charity.
Any donation is a free will.
Apr 26 2013: That's what I advocate as well. Then, charity should not be tax deductible. Right?
Apr 26 2013: NO.
What do you mean - charity?
Why do you want to tax donation for charity?
What is the big problem?
Apr 26 2013: OK. I think, we misunderstand each other. I was talking about deducting charitable donations from the taxable income of the person who gives to charity as it is done now. I think, this should not happen if we decouple charity from taxation.
You seem to mean that the receiver of charitable donations should not pay income tax on the money received. Correct? If this is the case, I agree. Sorry if I misunderstood.Apr 26 2013: It's still unclear to me how to avoid income declaration to the government if we have income tax, even uniform.Apr 25 2013: Sales Taxes are historically viewed as regressive taxes because the poor will spend their total income on things they need and pay tax on all of it. While those who are better off are able to save or invest. The money saved or invested is not taxed currently so the wealthy are seen as getting a freebie.
If you were able to eliminate Income taxes altogether, the Sales/Use tax seems to become the most fair. The rich would pay taxes not at a higher rate, but certainly a higher amount since they are consuming at a greater rate.
Conversely, a flat tax on income would also seem fair as all those who earn will pay at the same rate. Those who make more, will pay more in total but at the same rate as those who are lower paid.
Under the Sales/Use tax scenario, the savings and investments of the rich are more like an annuity for the government. One day, those funds will be spent. At that time, the taxes will be collected, not only on the original income earned but also any and all gains made as a result of the savings and investing.
In a flat tax scenario, the income taxes are paid NOW, at the time of the earnings. The expectations of the citizenship should be that their elected officials are good stewards of those funds. Saving and investing for the future while conducting the business of running the government today.
Apr 25 2013: You fail to mention that the "poor" get as much as 30% of their income from government transfers that is not taxed, this would be welfare, section housing, food stamps, WIC, healthcare.
The sales VAT/Sales tax would be the way to go, but only instead of not in addition to
The other area that this would help, that has not been mentioned is the prediction factor which anyone investing is always looking at. Which in the last 6 yr craps are more predictable than this clown.Apr 26 2013: Re: "Under the Sales/Use tax scenario, the savings and investments of the rich are more like an annuity for the government. One day, those funds will be spent. At that time, the taxes will be collected, not only on the original income earned but also any and all gains made as a result of the savings and investing."
Hopefully... unless these "savings and investments" disappear in the next Enron or Madoff scheme. But this is a good point. Unless the employer matches 401k contributions (which can be up to 100% return right off the bat), I see little reason to lock up money for decades and wait till I pay off my mortgage, my kids grow up, and I will have much fewer deductions and exemptions than now.
I agree. Either flat income of flat sales tax would work - not both and no exemptions, deductions, and room to wiggle.Apr 25 2013: Arkady: you may keep your idea I have no obligation to fallow. This is not a personal attack.
If government pays you so you could eat, means that Gov. must steal money from somebody (taxes) or print money (inflation – different form of robbery).
Charity (not Gov.) is something special. The problem is that Gov. (and politicians) wants to replace charity. We should support charitable org. This one and only exemption does NOT require lawyer. It requires a proof. Contribution for them (max. 10%) does NOT destroy the idea of 'same tax for everybody'.
Apr 25 2013: If you have a uniform income tax withdrawn at the source, with no returns and lawyers involved, and you want charitable donations to be deductible, then the charitable donations must be deducted from the paycheck which limits the the freedom to give to whomever and wherever we want. Otherwise, it seems necessary to fill out a tax return to get the money back which resurrects the necessity for lawyers and opens up the discussion of what donations are qualified.
Re: "If government pays you so you could eat, means that Gov. must steal money from somebody (taxes) or print money (inflation – different form of robbery)."
I agree. This is why I'm not a fan of government doing charity with other people's money. With "prebates", the trick is that the rich will get the prebate also. Prebate does not depend on how much you make.
Taxes are extortion of money under threat of violence. There is no way around it. How it is used and who receives does not change the way government gets the money. By definition, benefits from taxes don't go to the same people in proportion of what they pay. If this were the case, there would be no reason to take the money from people to begin with.
Apr 26 2013: Arkady: I want to be short (time is almost out). Charitable org. must be legal. Donor does NOT need a lawyer.
Taxes must be for Country, State and City expenses: not for any kind of charity.
Implementation of sale tax only (no other taxes) leads to the era of 'Al Capone'. Simply, you need Brinks like company to relocate any goods.
My proposal is: no property, no sale, no sin taxes, …. One and only: income tax – simple, equal, unchangeable forever.
Apr 26 2013: You got a whole system on your web site. I'll check it out some day. This needs a bit more consideration. In general, I agree with what you say. I'd go with uniform income tax as well. I like simple, consistent, and honest systems that leave no room for hypocrisy. The existing income tax system does not fit these requirements for me.
Well, nothing is unchangeable forever. "The only sure thing is change" (or "death and taxes" in another version of this adage).Apr 26 2013: Re: "Taxes must be for Country, State and City expenses: not for any kind of charity."
If government does not do charity to help the poor, there seems to be no reason to make charitable contributions tax deductible. Isn't the logic for charity deductions that it relieves the government of the burden to help the people who benefit from these charities? If taxes don't go to disaster relief, food stamps, etc., there should be no connection between taxes and charity.


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Barrow AFC sink to Boxing Day defeat
Last updated at 19:50, Friday, 28 December 2012
Blue Square Bet Premier: Barrow AFC 0 Gateshead 2
Goals: Gateshead: Josh Gillies (41, 85)
Attendance: 1,135
WHAT a difference a year makes.
Barrow AFC started 2012 with a home run of three wins and two draws at then-fortress Holker Street.
Fast forward 12 months and yesterday, in their final home game of the calendar year, they suffered a miserable 2-0 defeat that extended their winless home record in Blue Square Bet Premier to five.
Not since a 3-2 victory over Southport on October 9 have the Bluebirds won a league match at the FBS Stadium, or away from home for that matter.
A run of eight games without a win during the last two-and-a-half months has resulted in Barrow sinking to the bottom of the table, and with the season almost at the halfway stage, they face their biggest battle since promotion in 2007/08 to stay in non-league's top division.
Despite some excellent performances in cup matches, the Bluebirds have failed to deliver in most league encounters this term – a record of four wins in 22 speaks for itself – and yesterday was no exception.
A festive crowd of 1,135 arrived at a rain-lashed Holker Street expecting to see more of the same following a tremendous performance in the 1-1 FA Cup second round draw against Macclesfield in Barrow's last outing.
Instead they witnessed a poor display from a Bluebirds side who, despite never giving up, were out-played for the most part on a pitch which deteriorated as the rain poured down.
Boss Dave Bayliss named the same side that took on Macclesfield eight days earlier, with Richie Baker playing in a role just behind striker Adam Boyes. The pair went into the game having notched 20 goals between them this season.
For new Gateshead manager Anth Smith, who replaced the axed Ian Bogie recently, it was only a second game in charge, his first having ended in a 1-0 FA Trophy second round win at Cambridge United a week-and-a-half ago.
Barrow bossed the early stages and went close on five minutes when winger Sean McConville lifted a 16-yard shot onto the roof of the net.
The Bluebirds – with McConville, Baker and Boyes linking well and midfielder Alex-Ray Harvey snapping into tackles – continued to force the issue on the greasy surface without creating any clear-cut chances.
Gateshead, meanwhile, had threatened little until the 18th minute when a cross from the right was turned goalwards by winger Ryan Donaldson but thankfully for the hosts, keeper Danny Hurst made a terrific point-blank save.
Play then switched to the other end and an unmarked McConville was denied a shot at goal by a last-gasp sliding block from Tynesiders' right-back Carl Magnay.
With the rain still thundering down and the pitch becoming increasingly treacherous, perhaps referee Ross Joyce felt sorry for Gateshead keeper Adam Bartlett, who on 27 minutes slid out of the box with the ball still in his hands. Barrow players appealed for a free-kick but the man in the middle waved play on.
The visitors then enjoyed a real purple spell and should have gone ahead when Jamie Chandler slipped clear lone striker Yemi Odubade, who fired his shot straight at the legs of Hurst.
Moments later, Donaldson sped down the left and his cross was deflected over by the outstretched leg of Matt Flynn but the referee awarded a goal-kick.
Barrow responded and on 32 minutes McConville's 20-yard shot skidded narrowly wide. Shortly afterwards, another shot fizzed off the surface, this time from Harvey, and Bartlett could only parry the ball away with visiting skipper Ben Clark blocking the rebound effort from Boyes.
Gateshead then took the lead four minutes before half-time when an outstanding passing move, from back to front and left to right, ended with winger Josh Gillies crashing home following a cross by James Brown.
The Bluebirds sought an instant reply and when Boyes' long-range effort deflected off Clark, the ball spun inches wide of the post with Bartlett wrong-footed. From the resulting McConville corner, Boyes powerfully headed the ball goalwards and Paul Rutherford, from two yards out, stooped to nod it over the bar. The winger would have done better moving out of the way and allowing the ball to continue its course. Football is a much easier game with the benefit of hindsight!
Substitute Louis Almond replaced Baker in the role behind Boyes at the start of the second half but the on-loan Blackpool man struggled to make an immediate impact. Instead it was Gateshead who started the brighter and but for Hurst's flying save, defender Magnay would have doubled the visiting team's lead with a spectacular 30-yard strike that looked destined for the top corner.
With the heavy pitch now cutting up badly, both sides dug in for a what descended into a scrappy battle.
Bayliss, having introduced Danny Rowe for McConville, then, on 66 minutes, threw on final substitute Joe Jackson in place of Boyes. The decision to take off Boyes angered some of the home supporters on the Popular Side, who let their feelings be known.
Now playing in a 4-4-2 formation, the Bluebirds pushed on for an equaliser and almost got it when a cross from the left just evaded the head of Matt Flynn.
Shortly afterwards, Gateshead broke down field but failed to capitalise on a three-on-two situation with Donaldson heading over.
Then, on 79 minutes, Heed substitute James Marwood missed an even better chance, though Hurst deserves a lot of credit for using an outstretched right leg to keep the ball from sneaking in the bottom corner. A second Gateshead goal was, however, on the cards and it duly arrived five minutes from the end when Gillies tapped in from close range.
Barrow have now failed to beat Gateshead in their last seven league meetings and the bad news is they face two trips to the North-East in the space of the next 16 days, first in the Blue Square Bet Premier reversal and then in the FA Trophy second round.
Barrow (4-4-1-1): Danny Hurst; Matt Flynn, Gavin Skelton, Mike Pearson (captain), Sean Hessey; James Owen, Alex-Ray Harvey, Paul Rutherford, Sean McConville (Danny Rowe 62); Richie Baker (Louis Almond 46); Adam Boyes (Joe Jackson 66).
Subs not used: Shaun Pearson, Tom Anderson.
Gateshead (4-5-1): Adam Bartlett; Carl Magnay, Paddy Boyle, James Curtis, Ben Clark (captain); Jamie Chandler, Phil Turnbull, James Brown (Liam Henderson 65), Josh Gillies, Ryan Donaldson; Yemi Odubade (James Marwood 65).
Subs not used: Micky Cummins, Jordan Nixon, Glenn Wilson.
First published at 14:19, Wednesday, 26 December 2012
Published by http://www.nwemail.co.uk
Have your say
I spoke to lamps and he said where the hell is barrow ! I said bottom of the league so his answer was give me a magician and a load of dough I might give it a go ! Have barrow got enough fuel for the Aston Martin ?
Deja Vu all over again but put simply once again, Barrow do not have the resources to compete in BSP no matter who the Manger is. That is because the football-orientated people of the town are apathetic and will only come along when the team are winning or it is a big game. If they supported their families using the same logic they would all be divorced with their kids and any elderly parents in care. They are just not wired up right.
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subset: commoncrawl


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UNCW Geologist Part of International Study on Global Climate Change
Wednesday, December 04, 2013
Paul J. Hearty, research associate professor in the UNCW Department of Environmental Studies, was among a team of international researchers participating in a study on global climate change. Led by James Hansen, former director of NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, the findings reveal how the consequences of 2°C global warming by 2100 have been severely underestimated and present urgent strategies of emission reduction to achieve a more sustainable 1°C warming target.
The study, published on Dec. 3 in the open-access journal PLOS ONE, presents an assessment based mainly on observations of present and past climates. The team evaluated internationally discussed global warming targets versus trends in potential and currently developing fossil fuel exploitation.
Hearty's research over the past decades has documented rapid changes in sea level during past interglacial periods from geological exposures around the globe. "The forecast for the oceans is not promising," says Hearty. "Geological evidence shows conclusively that significant polar ice melting events occurred during past slightly warmer periods of 1-2 °C, yielding sea-level rises of several meters."
The authors also discuss why letting the targets "slip" would cause impacts that are irreversible on timescales of less 1,000 years. The study concludes with a brief consideration of the economical, humanitarian and legal implications of the current choice between ignoring the evidence or developing suitable action.


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David's Bridal Unforgettable™ Barbie® Doll
Release Date: 5/1/2004
Product Code: G2889
David's Bridal Unforgettable™ Barbie® doll wears a beautiful bridal gown with a white glitter-print satiny bodice and a full, glittery tulle skirt. Exceptional accessories include a tulle veil with faux rhinestone tiara attached, faux rhinestone necklace, silvery earrings, red bouquet, white charmeuse gloves, and white high-heel sandals. Say "I do!" to this exquisite doll!
Production doll may vary from the photo shown above. Mattel reserves the right to modify the fashion/fabrics, sculpt, hair color/style, and accessories. Doll cannot stand alone as shown.
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Notary ServicesWritten by Amanda G. on 08/01/2012
We have a Notary Public (Notary) available most hours that the Library is open. There is no charge for the service.
Documents are notarized to deter fraud and to ensure they are properly executed. An impartial witness (the Notary) identifies signers to screen out impostors and to make sure they have entered into agreements knowingly and willingly.If you need something notarized, please bring two forms of ID containing your signature, one of which must have a photo.
- Valid driver's license
- Passport
- Credit card


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1968 Volvo P1800 '68 Volvo P1800, maroon with black interior, sitting for many years, excellent original car to restore. For $5,950 USD. If you have any additional... More
Volvo cars have always been known for being reliable sturdy and well-built. In the 1950s the distinctly American-looking PV444/544 series was the car that... More
1970 Volvo P1800 Coupe '70 Volvo P1800 Coupe, yellow with brown interior, excellent original car that has been sitting for many years for restoration. For... More


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Founded in 1922, Better Homes and Gardens magazine is dedicated to improving the lives of its readers through inspiring, informative and educational articles. Beyond the magazine, the Better Homes and Gardens brand extends to multiple platforms including books, special interest magazines, videos and consumer products. It reaches more than 4.5 million unique visitors each month.
Please be advised that the magazine will be dispatched within 4-6 weeks from the date of order placed.
No gift will be entertained along with the subscription schemes.
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Southern Methodist University
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After you've been awarded any academic scholarships, your SMU financial aid advisor will review your Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) and College Scholarship Service (CSS) PROFILE.® All students must complete the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA) each year to determine their eligibility for federal and state financial aid (found at www.fafsa.ed.gov). Undergraduate students who also want to be considered for university need-based aid must complete the CSS/Financial Aid PROFILE® found at http://student.collegeboard.org/css-financial-aid-profile. There is a $25 cost for completing the CSS/PROFILE®.
Once the FAFSA and CSS/Profile have been submitted, your financial aid advisor will put together a package of federal, state and SMU-funded awards, including grants, loans and work-study options, to meet your specific situation. However, remember, you won't know what your financial options are until you apply for admission.
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The European Commission asks Apple and labels to explain their pacts for the relaunch of Beats Music to see if they're trying to crimp free offerings from streaming rivals like Spotify, a report says.
To entice buyers, the Spring Value bundles will offer two free games and one month of Xbox Live.
Now's the time to plan that romantic Valentine's Day getaway for you and your sweetheart. Beat overpriced hotel rates by searching for last-minute deals online. In this Tech Minute, CNET's Kara Tsuboi introduces us to new resources for saving money on weekends away.
The first deal of Microsoft's 12 days trims the price of a Windows 8.1 tablet by $20 and throws in a free one-year subscription to Microsoft Office 365 Personal.
Say goodbye to Black Friday and Cyber Monday. But that doesn't mean all the deals are done. We've rounded up the best post-Cyber Monday bargains that are still available right now.
You don't like Mondays? You will after getting a look at some of these deals.
Now that Black Friday is over, it's time for Cyber Monday. We're keeping a running list of the best bargains around the Web for this online shopping bonanza. And the best part is that there aren't any long lines: you can score these deals from your desk at work, from your phone -- or even while staying in your pajamas.


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I'm a wife, mother, sister, daughter, friend, enemy.....this list goes on. I love to laugh and sing (even though i cant carry a tune for shit). Music is my passion. I love different types of music, but I mainly listen to rock, metal, and classic rock, Korn is one of my favorite bands. They get me like no one else does. Their words to their songs speak to me and for me like no other,
People can be so very shallow. Don't be so quick to judge a person by their outer apperance cause that beauty queen that you're looking for or you think you have found will be the one to leave you at the drop of a hat or kill you in your sleep. Haha.. I'm not the perfect girl. I'm not the perfect size and I certainly don't look the part of perfect. I don't say the right things and I'm...


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additional camera utility to sense depth
Ergonomically pleasing, aesthetically boring. It's how it feels in my hands that counts though.
I also have seen people on the front page talking about controller costs due to a touch screen, it is not a screen, simply a pad. A clickable one as well at that.
I will try to find a youtube video of the share button being demoed.


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yeah i did watch it. i liked it no one agrees with me. only thing i got annoyed about was the pre- recorded vids like the rap etc. why cant i accept your request?
Yeah, I posted ages ago...
I'm good thanks mate, you?
Are watching mania at weekend? £15 on sky isn't it. Will be ordering mine tomorrow.
© 2011 eWrestlingNews, All Rights Reserved.


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Ah crap so close to win again.Still 2nd place is awesome though
Last edited by Automatic; 11-21-2012 at 10:39 AM.
''Ricardo Rodriguez is the best character on WWE TV.''
E-fed: Jackson "The Boss" Smith- IWA & former ICW superstar
DJ "The Ladies Man" Williams w/ Rosita-EWNCW
Devon "Just Damn Good" Jones
Mike Hawk
EWNCW World Champion (11-12-13 to 5/1/14) Vacated
Current IWA World Champion (12-15-13 to Present)
IWA Blackout Champion (3-24-13 to 4-27-14)
Former JBW Television Champion (12-2-12 to 8-2-13)
Former ICW Tag Team champion
1st and last EWA Carnage World champion
Mixed Emotions (Pride and Sorrow)
Current EWNCW World Tag Team Champions (4-19-13 to 4-26-14)
Last EWNCW Grand, Hardcore and International Tag Champions
Divas to believe in.
Last edited by TNAFAN727; 11-21-2012 at 03:40 PM.
"Humans disgust me. Vile creatures."
― William Regal


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Sort:All Motorcycles Bicycles Snowmobiles
"…As of April, Austrian cyclists will pay a fine of 50 Euro if caught using their mobile phone while cycling. However, the use of a hands-free system is allowed…For such cases, the U.S. company Cardo Systems has developed a voice-activated communication system. The "BK-1" is the world's first Bluetooth-based hands-free system for cyclists."


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Naruto episode 66 + 67
|Contains 521 image(s)
These are the screenshots taken from Naruto episode 66 and 67. All screenshots are taken by Naruto-Kun admins. Please note that as a site you are not allowed to copy galleries and use them on your own site. This is called copyright!


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Garden statuary has become a very popular part of the modern day backyard. In fact, ask most people who spend time in their backyard and they might even say that outdoor garden statues are pretty much an essential part of their garden. Statuary might take the form of a small welcome sign, a few garden gnomes, or a fantastic display of full-size Greek garden statues but no matter how big or small, some type of garden sculpture is typically present. However, If you are just getting started with decorating the garden, picking out the right sculptures can be a challenge. You may have always felt intrigued by Buddha statues but you also love dragon sculptures. A big stone angel looks majestic but maybe a couple of small garden fairies would be better when just starting out with backyard decor?
If you aren't sure about which resin garden statues to buy, start out with an ever popular favorite genre of backyard decor, that of the animal yard statue. Most people enjoy animal garden statues and put them on display whether they have a Gothic-themed yard or a panoply of fantastic, classic statues. One of the great things about animal garden statues is that you can always find one that will fit into any type of decorating theme. Something like a Meerkat Statue can also add an incredibly cute touch to the backyard while a Shadowed Panther Sculpture shows the captivating, natural beauty of a jungle predator on the prowl.
Buy $75 or more of animal garden sculptures, other types of garden statuary, and any items from Design Toscano until the end of today, July 14th, and pay nothing for regular shipping!


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The Returns
A work by William Forsythe
with music by Dietrich Krüger, Sebastian Rietz and Thom Willems
With a clairvoyant manicurist as guide and a lavishly costumed supporting cast of agents, patrons, parrots and pirates, »The Returns« takes its audience on a rakish tour of art culture. Art as commodity and fetish; the artist as medium and charlatan, the art market as salon and playing field – Forsythe's caustic, ribald Defilée of archetypes and attitudes grants its audience no quarter.
›Pulling a homage like this out of his hat while giving a dig to the ballet and linking it all to his own idiom – only an unwavering trailblazer like Forsythe can carry this off.‹
(Dorion Weickmann, Süddeutsche Zeitung)
No admittance to children under the age of 12


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BBQ Rubs
17th Street Magic Dust 3 Ozs.
Availability: Out of stockMike Mills' Magic Dust 3 Ozs. is the perfect size for the table to use as a condiment. Magic Dust is a very fine grade of spice made especially for 17th Street Barbecue by a Master Spice Maker in Arkansas. Once you've tried it on your ribs, you'll want to put it on just about anything. It's great mixed in with your favorite baked beans, chili.. just about anything you want to give a little kick to. Learn More
Regular Price: $6.99
Special Price: $5.95


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Alpinestars Clothing and Apparel from Surf Fanatics
Don't get a black flag on your outdated style, score big with Surf Fanatics and our massive collection of Alpinestars Clothing. When only the most up-to-date Alpinestars Apparel will do, the ultimate Surf Store is sure to have what you're looking for. Our inventory of Alpinestars Motocross Gear includes: Alpinestars Hats, Boardshorts, T-Shirts, Hoodies and more, so you can show off your one-of-a-kind look 24/7 365.
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Moderators: Tonyblack, Jason, Toothy
Tonyblack wrote:I've often wondered what the elephants eat.
Pabiacelyn wrote:If an elephant fell sick?
Earthquakes, storms, an all out risk to the Disc?
And who would present the cure - would it be Witch, Wizard or a do or die case for the Watch?
I would love to know
Jan Van Quirm wrote:Tonyblack wrote:I've often wondered what the elephants eat.
Hay-leys comet?
*goes off and gives herself a jolly good talking to...*
As long as your funny bone is in working order, you should be fine.Pabiacelyn wrote:Thank you, I think I am going to enjoy myself in here. I am popping into hospital later this week to have a new hip fitted but suspect that this place may well help recovery very well.
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 10 guests


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CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa - "Are You Better Off?" was the slogan emblazoned on posters at Tuesday afternoon's Republican campaign rally as the party's vice presidential candidate made an appeal keyed to anxiety over the nation's lagging economy.
"(President Obama) can't tell you you're better off," U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan told about 400 people at Kirkwood Community College.
Ryan said the national debt, which hit $16 trillion Tuesday afternoon, is "a serious threat to our economy. Of all the broken promises from President Obama, this is probably the worst one, because this debt is threatening jobs today."
An Obama re-election would signify "a nation in debt, a nation in decline," Ryan said. "We will not stand by and watch this country slip through our fingers."
Ryan was accompanied by Gov. Terry Branstad, who said that under GOP ticket "less spending, less government, and lower taxes will grow our economy."
"I feel like I'm back at home," said Ryan, whose Janesville, Wisc., hometown is "an hour and a half drive from Dubuque."
Ryan said Mitt Romney's experience running the 2002 Winter Olympics and as Massachusetts' governor qualify him for the presidency. "This is a good man, this is a leader," said Ryan, who sought to contrast Romney's record with "the most acrimonious, partisan climate I've ever seen in Washington." He said "we owe you solutions," but Ryan's 20-minute speech was short on specifics, beyond promising "we are going to repeal and replace Obamacare."
"We need to have tax reform to get rid of the loopholes and lower taxes for everybody," he said.
Ryan's pitch impressed Bill Windauer of Iowa City, who said he's "very, very disappointed in the last four years." "He did a good job," Windauer. "The information is building up, as far as what the Democrats and Republicans want to do." Windauer, 62, a University of Iowa fundraiser, said he's "more decided than not," leaning toward voting Republican in November. Is he better off than in 2008? "I don't think so," Windauer said. "I would say there are little things - the price of gas."
"I'd say 'No,'" said Lisa Bolte, 43, of Hiawatha. "The price of gas, the price of groceries."
"Just like everyone else, we're excited," Bolte said of Ryan. "I'm a conservative, he's a conservative. We have the same values, the same principles."
This is Ryan's second trip to the Hawkeye State. He visited the Iowa State Fair in August. Ryan will speak at a rally Wednesday at the Dallas County Courthouse in Adel.
President Obama and Vice President Biden will visit Iowa City on Friday where they will hold a campaign rally on the University of Iowa campus.
Watch The Interview with Paul Ryan:
Cedar Rapids, Iowa News, Sports, and Weather
Vote 2012: "Are you better off?" Ryan Asks in Cedar Rapids
By Steve Gravelle & Jillian Petrus, Reporters
Most Popular


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Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, DC/Capitol
Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, DC/Capitol
Hotel Guest Rating: 8.8/10
333 E Street Sw
Washington, DC 20024
Welcome to the Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, DC/Capitol
A few blocks from the National Mall, the Residence Inn Washington, D.C. Capitol Hill gets high marks from Priceline guests for its location as well as the free buffet breakfast and Wi-Fi. The indoor pool, exercise room and sun deck are also favorite amenities.
Hotel Features
Rising 13 stories, this 233-room hotel designed for longer stays gives you plenty of room in its contemporary studios with full-sized kitchens, as well as its larger one- and two-bedroom suites. Desks with ergonomic chairs and complimentary Wi-Fi make work a breeze, while flat-panel TVs are perfect for leisure time. There's an indoor pool with a mural of the city skyline, a gym with free weights and cardio equipment and a sunny deck that's a perfect for your morning coffee. The free breakfast gets raves—freshly cooked eggs, bacon, sausage and waffles make it a cut above the rest. There's also a free dinner for guests with a frequently-changing menu on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday evenings.
Hotel Location
Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport is five miles away—best reached by way of D.C.'s speedy Metro system. There are several stations near the hotel, the closest being Federal Center, a four-minute walk away. The National Air and Space Museum, the National Museum of the American Indian and the Botanical Garden are within a 10-minute walk. A stroll to the U.S. Capitol and the Library of Congress both take less than 20 minutes. For baseball fans there's Nationals Park, home of the Washington Nationals, barely a mile away.
Guest Favorites
Location is the main draw for the Residence Inn Washington, D.C., but spacious suites and free breakfasts (and frequent free dinners) make it a winner.
Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, DC/Capitol Amenities
- 24-hour front desk
- Accessible facilities
- Accessible parking
- Air conditioning
- Air conditioning individually controlled in room
- Alarm clock
- AM/FM radio
- ATM/Cash machine
- BBQ/Picnic area
- Boarding pass print-out available
- Buffet breakfast
- Business center
- Business services
- Cable television
- CNN available
- Coin operated laundry
- Color television
- Complimentary breakfast
- Complimentary buffet breakfast
- Complimentary cocktails
- Complimentary coffee in lobby
- Complimentary full american breakfast
- Complimentary in-room coffee or tea
- Complimentary newspaper in lobby
- Dry cleaning
- Elevators
- ESPN available
- Exercise gym
- Express check-out
- Fitness center on-site
- Free high speed internet connection
- Free toll free calls
- Front desk
- Full service housekeeping
- Gift/News stand
- Grocery shopping service available
- Gym
- Hairdryer
- HBO available
- Health club
- High speed internet access
- High speed wireless
- Hot breakfast
- Housekeeping - daily
- Ice machine
- Individual Efolio available
- Indoor pool
- Interior corridors
- Iron
- Ironing board
- Laundry/Valet service
- List of movie channels available
- Local calls
- Managers reception
- Meeting rooms
- Motorcycle parking
- Non-smoking rooms (generic)
- On-site business center
- On-Site parking
- Onsite laundry
- Outdoor space
- Parking
- Pay per view movies on TV
- Pets allowed
- Pool
- Premium movie channels
- Public area air conditioned
- Remote control television
- Security
- Telephone
- Valet cleaning
- Valet same day dry cleaning
- Vending machines
- Voice mail
- Wakeup service
- Wedding services
- Whirlpool
- Wireless internet connection in public areas
Hotel Information
Upon check-in photo identification and credit card is required. All special requests are subject to availability upon check-in. Special requests cannot be guaranteed and may incur additional charges.Please note the Breakfast Included rate includes breakfast for 2 adults. Guests are required to show a photo identification and credit card upon check-in. Please note that all Special Requests are subject to availability and additional charges may apply.
Hotel Guest Reviews of the Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, DC/CapitolOur hotel ratings and reviews are from real hotel guests. Priceline.com ensures that its reviews are guests-only by proactively sending hotel surveys to customers after they've completed their hotel stays. In the post-stay surveys, priceline.com hotel customers are asked a number of questions about their stay and the hotel. On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the best, the survey asks guests to rate their overall experience and specifically rate the hotel's cleanliness, staff and location. Priceline.com does not allow site visitors to post unsolicited hotel reviews.
January 1, 2015
Family Traveling with Young Children
May 27, 2014
Family Traveling with Young Children
This hotel is a gem inside the capitol hill neighborhood. With a great indoor pool and hot tub, big breakfast buffets, friendly service, and spacious suites, it is ideal for a family trip or extended stay for business travelers.
November 5, 2013
Family Traveling with Young Children
July 9, 2013
Family Traveling with Young Children
The hotel is very family friendly. We had a room with a queen bed and queen sofa bed. The rooms have a full kitchen with utensils, pots, and pans, which is very convenient when traveling with kids. The hotel has a nice swimming pool, hot tub, and an outdoor terrace. Parking is available for a $30 fee, but they were sold out on the 4th of July so we parked overnight on the street. There are several cheaper parking lots in the surrounding area, but some of them close at night. The hotel is in the South Capitol area, close to the National Mall, Capitol building, American Indian Museum, and Botanical Conservatory. There are not too many restaurants in the area, but the hotel provides a free breakfast which was very good. My only complaint is that the hotel allows pets and my kids woke up with what appeared to be flea bites. ...
(1 - 4 of 4 family with young children reviews)
See all 12 reviews by date
- Holiday Inn Capitol - Washington Dc from $129 (0.3mi)
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- Phillips (0.5mi)
- Mitsitam Café (0.6mi)
- Capital Grille (0.7mi)
- Charlie Palmer Steak (0.7mi)
- CityZen (0.7mi)
- United States Botanic Garden (0.4mi)
- National Museum of the American Indian (0.5mi)
- Tidal Basin (0.5mi)
- Freer & Sackler Galleries, The (0.6mi)
- Library of Congress (0.6mi)
- Arlington, VA (5.0 mi)
- Chevy Chase, MD (6.3 mi)
- Takoma Park, MD (6.8 mi)
- Alexandria, VA (7.0 mi)
- Silver Spring, MD (7.0 mi)
- Bethesda, MD (8.2 mi)
- Hyattsville, MD (8.5 mi)
- Capitol Heights, MD (8.6 mi)
- Oxon Hill, MD (8.8 mi)
- Suitland, MD (8.9 mi)
- Falls Church, VA (9.9 mi)
- Temple Hills, MD (10.0 mi)
- College Park, MD (10.1 mi)
- Mc Lean, VA (12.4 mi)
- Andrews Air Force Base, MD (13.7 mi)
- Lanham, MD (13.9 mi)
- Springfield, VA (14.2 mi)
- Beltsville, MD (14.6 mi)
- Greenbelt, MD (14.7 mi)
- Clinton, MD (14.9 mi)
- Potomac, MD (20.0 mi)
- Fairfax, VA (24.0 mi)
- Upper Marlboro, MD (26.0 mi)
Most Popular Guest-Rated Hotels in Washington Dc
- Willard Intercontinental
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Most Popular Business-Friendly Hotels in Washington Dc
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- Courtyard By Marriott Washington, Dc/Foggy Bottom
- Park Hyatt Washington
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Most Popular Family-Friendly Hotels in Washington Dc
- Embassy Suites Hotel Washington, D.C.
- Residence Inn By Marriott Washington, Dc Downtown
- Embassy Suites Hotel At The Chevy Chase Pavilion


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Shoe Obsession™ Barbie® Doll
Barbie® put the "s" in stilettos, slingbacks and style and has fun with fashion from head to toe! She wears a white tulle bubble dress that features yellow, purple, black and pink (of course!) shoes sewn right into her skirt! Unique stiletto necklace and iconic Barbie ponytail complete her playful look. Wouldn't you love to be in her shoes?
Shoes in skirt are for decorative purposes only.
For ages 6 and over.
Production doll may vary from the photo shown above. Mattel reserves the right to modify the fashion/fabrics, sculpt, hair color/style, and accessories. Doll cannot stand alone as shown.


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Statues have been used for religious purposes since people first learned to carve. They help remind us of ideals and philosophies to live by and for many people, give form to faith. They represent some of the earliest pieces of art, sculpted masterpieces that take center stage in some of the most prestigious museums, and beautify gardens around the globe.
Religious statues also fit into just about any decorating theme and when you order them from Design Toscano through today, September 4th, you can get 20% off the regular price as part of our Labor Day Sale. Animal lovers can save on the beautiful Nature's Nurturer: St. Francis Sculpture. The bird bath in this statue makes it possible for Saint Francis to show his love for animals in real time as sparrows, goldfinches, doves, and other birds come to perch on his shoulders and splash in the basin.
People who appreciate classic Renaissance-themed art and the sacred union of the family will love The Holy Family Sculpture. Detailed, lifelike, and sculpted in classic Italian sculpting traditions that have been passed down for centuries from generation to generation, this work of art has the elegance of an heirloom piece.
Save 20% on these excellent statues, Buddha outdoor statues, and everything on our site when ordered by today, September 4th.