text:
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Many firms are acutely aware of the costs and risks associated with lost or unrecoverable data on employee devices, including desktops, laptops, and mobile devices and while mobility initiatives, including bring your own device (BYOD), are gaining popularity, IDC has discovered that many firms do not have adequate protection, recovery policies or tools in place to manage their ever-increasing volumes of data. Read why IDC believes the need to protect sensitive data residing on desktops, laptops, and mobile devices is more critical than ever and how CommVault Edge can meet end user demands by delivering a solution that is secure and allows users access to their data anywhere and at any time. Download whitepaper »
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subset: commoncrawl


text:
 On Thanksgiving eve in 2007, Bryan Lopez and Andrew Wawryk, two local teenagers, illegally gained access to three Sag Harbor businesses — Whaler's Cleaners, Vincenzo's Pizza and the Ice Cream Club. Lopez was charged with two felonies in connection with the incident, and served almost five months in jail, said Sag Harbor Village Police Lieutenant Thomas Mackey. Wawryk still has open charges in connection with this crime said his lawyer Brian Decessa.
 This past weekend, the two young men were again arrested by Sag Harbor Village Police for allegedly engaging in similar criminal behavior. On February 23, between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m., police say Lopez, 20, broke into the store Weekend Warriors on Long Island Avenue in Sag Harbor, by using a pry bar to open a rear door.
 According to police, Lopez proceeded to steal approximately $349 in cash from the store's register. Later that same day, at around 7:20 a.m., police say Wawryk, also 20, attempted to gain entry into the Black Cat Book Store, located at 78 Main Street. Wawryk is said to have used a butter knife to jimmy the lock of the front door. According to Mackey, a witness, however, saw Wawryk and he then fled the scene.
 Mackey reported that village police launched an investigation of the incidents and gathered evidence including video surveillance footage, physical evidence and a series of interviews. Lopez was allegedly seen on video footage from the surveillance cameras of businesses neighboring Weekend Warriors, including 7-Eleven and physical evidence consisted of the pry bar, which was left at the scene of the crime. In addition, numerous interviews conducted by the police helped round out the investigation and lead to the arrests of Lopez and Wawryk.
 Although the crimes were allegedly committed in February, the two young men weren't arrested until Saturday, March 14. According to Mackey, both men have confessed to the crimes and signed written confessions. Although they acted independently at each location, Mackey said police ascertained during the investigation that Lopez and Wawryk had spent time together on February 23, before the crimes were committed.
 Wawryk was arrested and charged with attempted burglary in the third degree, a class E felony. He was later issued an appearance ticket and released on a cash bail of $100. Because Lopez successfully committed a burglary, he faces more serious charges and stricter bail terms. Lopez was arrested on charges of burglary in the third degree, a class D felony, and petit larceny, a misdemeanor. He was arraigned at the Southampton Town Justice Court on Sunday, March 15 and was remanded to Suffolk County Jail in Riverhead in lieu of his bail, which was set at $51,085. Wawryk's arraignment is set for Monday, March 23.
 "I am happy there was an arrest," said David Lys, the owner of Weekend Warriors.Â
Above: Mugshots of Bryan Lopez and Andrew Wawryk.Â


text:
- Amr Salah
- Alexandria, Egypt
- Egypt
This conversation is closed.
Aren't Christianity, Judaism and Islam basically the same? How much archaeological evidence is there of similar teachings in the past?
Among countless arguments that keep recurring almost on a daily basis, specially in the middle-east, many are centered around the constant conflict between the Abrahamic religions. I found it strange that whole centuries were not enough for humans to reach some conclusions, perhaps because we are all, to some extent, biased. People simply ignored, and in some cases resented, what they didn't konw. The media played a significant role in further increasing the gap using inflaming language, fabricated and biased news while ignoring or hiding historic and concrete facts altogether.
Apparently, Jews denied Christians and Muslims, Christians denied Muslims and Jews, and Muslims denied Christians and Jews. Nowadays, many people are conditioned to take sides without even thinking. One puzzling point is that some people turned other religions to a forbidden knowledge instead of encouraging people to know. Thus, they seem to prefer keeping people ignorant rather than letting them form an opinion on their own.
I don't know if someone has contributed to any sort of worldwide work that deals with the basic similarities between the Abrahamic religions, specially the beliefs. Thus, I invite everyone who is willing to share what they know about: the similarities between the Abrahamic religions, the archaeological evidence regarding them and what you think whether any human, organization or government nowadays has any right to turn any of the Abrahamic religions to a forbidden knowledge.
Gail .
Aug 28 2012: Muslims and Jews have pretty much gotten along throughout their history, until the interference of the Western World as a result of the Versaille Treaty that ended World War I. That's because their cultures are so similar. The biggest differences that I know of are
- +3
Muslims Holy day is Friday. Jews = Saturday. Muslims are to pray 5 times a day. Jews only 3. Dietary laws are the same except that Muslims must say Allah during the ritual slaughter. Other differences are differences of custom such as dress. It's no wonder that these groups cohabitated mostly peaceably for 1400 years.
So what has happened? FIRST: The British promised Palestine to the Arabs in exchange for their help with England's war against the Ottoman Turks. England went back on its promise.
SECOND: The Versaille Treaty: The Versailles Treaty that broke lands into artificial divisions and forcing incompatible groups to join for the purpose of establishing a united government. Suddenly, incompatible groups (suni and shia for example) were made vulnerable and left feeling threatened. But it did more. It imposed so many economic sanctions on Germany that a Hitler was virtually GUARANTEED to rise.
ONE of the several groups that Hitler targeted, with extermination in mind, were the Jews. Jews were hated throughout Europe and America. NO one would take them in. When WWII was over, if people really wanted Jews to have a homeland, they should have given them resource rich Germany. But England, France, and other major players didn't want Jews in their back yard, so they were encouraged to go to Palestine, that had been promised to the Arabs at great cost to life
Now we have Arabs and Jews, who are natural allies, fighting among themselves. As to Christians, that's a different story indeed. Most of the 37,000 denominations are incompatible with Judaism or Islam, even though Maimonides & Muhammed speaks like Jesus.
Now all 3 religions have become perversions of something beautiful.
Aug 28 2012: Hi TED Lover,
Thanks for your comment. I learnt from it many facts I didn't know.
That part of history that you've mentioned is something we pay for all our lives, specially Palestinians.
Gail .
Aug 28 2012: so true!!! (I'm an ex-christian married to a Jew, but my mother (agnostic) was from Holland, and she made sure that I knew the history that our schools wouldn't teach us. Which might explain PART of the USA insanity with respect to the matter)Aug 16 2012: Salaam alaikum Amr.
- 0
The Holy Qur'an states that the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospels) and the Qur'an are all books from Allah revealed to three prophets in their time; Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. The Qur'an goes on to say that, if the Jews and Christians had remained true to the revelations sent to them they would also be Muslims as all people who believe in the one God and do not join partners with Him or worship idols, believe in the Last Day, the resurrection of all beings and the Final Judgement are actually Muslims though they may not call themselves that. The Christians parted company with the teachings of Allah and his Prophet Jesus when they assigned him as a son of God and declared that God is a trinity i.e. three gods; Jesus, God and the Holy Ghost. So, to answer your question, the three religions would be the same if they had stuck to the original plan.
Aug 16 2012: Wa alaikum assalam,
What you mentioned in your comment is accurately what Muslims believe. I think it is a very valuable insight since many would simply avoid disussing this topic from this perspective even though we all know that, as humans, our life is short and other humans shouldn't control what we are allowed to know. And I think this topic is very important, if not the most important, at least to me. (and I admit my ignorance. I don't claim to know anything more than anyone else)
All prophets and believers are called Muslims in Qur'an, including those who followed all prophets. "Islam" itself, in essence, is believing in one God. The word itself also means submitting to the Creator, if "submitting" is the correct word (my English is not that good).
This leads me to another question: why do you think people didn't stick to the original plan?
Aug 18 2012: Amr, I need to retract what I said about the original plan after thinking deeply about it. Whatever happens is part of Allah's plan and so, the situation of three different Ibrahimic faiths must be part of that plan. I was brought up to ask 'why?' of everything but I know that at the end of all the 'why's' is the answer that it is Allah's will. Some things are unknowable (the Ghayb) and though we will wonder about them until our time is up we will never know WHY Allah makes the decisions he does. And does it matter why? If you accept Allah's will completely then you stop asking why His will is the way it is. I am not saying that you shouldn't question what goes on, but question humans about their motives rather than question Allah about His.
Amr Salah
Aug 18 2012: "need to retract what I said about the original plan"
- +1
Perhaps it is possible to use the term "true path" or "straight path" or something like this instead of "original plan".
I agree that "at the end of all the 'why's' is the answer that it is Allah's will".
(I was asking about the people's possible motives.)
Sometimes I unintentionally cross lines that I shouldn't when discussing topics that are related to religion, please feel free to warn me when I do.Aug 18 2012: Hi Lesley,
That helps understanding of the Muslim perspective.
I guess each of the 3 have their own explanations of where and why the other 3 are mistaken.
Aug 18 2012: There is a line that separates the living from the dead. There is a line that separates rivers' fresh water from seas' salty water. The sky have no visible "columns" that keep it over and around the earth. Yes, perspectives are invisible barriers that divide people, unlike the visible borders on the maps.
There are people who care only about earthly life and there are people who care only about the afterlife (knowing that earthly life is too insignificant and too short to care about. Life is like resting under the shadow of a tree then leaving.) And we all have our reasons. But, we have no reason not to correct ourselves when there is a chance to do it. Your perspective is your choice and your responsibility. The explanation depends on your own judgment and choice.
Aug 18 2012: Gravity holds the atmosphere.
What nearly all of us agree on is there is a before death life.
No one knows 100% if there is an afterlife as proposed by religions.
Some might not care about this life because of some belief in an afterlife, but based on the evidence, that seems very flawed.
Whether you believe just in this life or some magic afterlife, we are all in this one together and should do our best to make it a good life for all.
For me that includes freedom of religion within limits of not impinging on the rights of others. It also includes free speech and robust debate and seeking the truth. Freedom of religion is not freedom from critical thinking and a little skeptism and feedback.Aug 19 2012: "There are people who care only about earthly life and there are people who care only about the afterlife"
That was an exaggeration from me. Sorry. I meant the order of priorities is different from one person to another.
"No one knows 100% if there is an afterlife as proposed by religions."
Well, we spend our life trying to do the best we can, though our goals and means differ. Also, beside that I believe in the afterlife, I just think it is illogical to think that the short life we have on earth is the end of the story. Life is more meaningful and purposeful than this. Those who do evil are not equal to those who do good.
(Human custom biased laws cannot determine who is good and who is evil. Our systems are full of holes. There is a much higher form of unbiased justice. The same justice that makes us all leave life in the same manner and leave everything we had behind us.)
I respect your opinion and your choice. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm far too ignorant to provide any answers. I was simply letting my thoughts flow. We all, equally, have a choice, as long as we live.
Aug 19 2012: And I respect your right to believe what you want even if I disagree and debate some points.
Do other animals have an afterlife? You might have been taught there is an afterlife, it might seem nice to you, it might seem fair to you to have some after death justice. Is there any evidence for this, for your interpretation. Maybe the Buddha got it right and we reincarnate. OR maybe our brains stop working and our bodies decompose and we become food or nutrients for future life.
Have you spoken with any dead spirits? Actually some people claim to have contact with the other side. I don't think their beliefs are traditional Muslim.
Have you met anyone who has died for a few weeks or longer and come back and talks of an afterlife. Even if you did how do we know he is telling the truth or was dreaming.
Wishful thinking and faith based belief does not make an afterlife real.
Also, I note there is no evidence for the involvement of anything divine or supernatural in all the different religious moralities supposedly revealed. They don't seem to agree on the details. In fact they look no better than man made morality.
I suggest there is no evidence of any divine and perfect laws revealed or a source being.
To me all the religions look man made. Did men make the Morman religion or the Hindu Religion or invent Odin, and Zeus, and Maduk, and El etc. I think me made your religion too. Is there any reason I shopuld think your belief is correct and the others wrong. Why are they wrong and you right. Are you just making the same sort of assumptions they are believing in old books etc.
To me your belief in the afterlife and divine justice and morality is faith based, no evidence, wishful thinking or religious dogma. Where is your proof?
Anyway, I hope that gives you a different perspective. From the outside all these religious beliefs look manmade. In the end there may be gods, but no evidence yet.Aug 19 2012: I agree. All I can present to you is logical thinking and my thoughts. I don't have evidence. I don't know more than anyone else. I'm not a scientist and I think religious matters are hard to prove scientifically. Besides, perhaps they were meant to be that way.
"To me all the religions look man made."
That's why you need to evaluate what you hear. In Qur'an, people are invited to use their minds to evaluate facts, to research and to investigate. It is mentioned that we were given eyes, ears and minds (or hearts) to see the truth, but the nonbelievers do not see with them what believers see. The first command that was said in Qur'an was "Read". We're challenged in different suras with logical reasoning, and stories of other prophets. We're challenged to try to make anything that's equally as good as Qur'an or even a single sura of it. The feeling you get from reading Qur'an is much different, much more special than reading anything else. It is as if it talks directly to your mind and consciousness.
I think religion nowadays is a mental challenge. We need to know all we can about life. We need to be able to judge facts and reach conclusions. There won't be any new prophets coming. All that is needed to be known is already there, available to everyone, both right and wrong ideas. It is a very hard "quest" and time is limited.
But, in the past it was not any easier. Ibrahim (Abraham), pbuh, was thrown into the fire by his people because he refused to worship the statues his people worshipped. (but fire was ordered to cause him no harm) He tried to convince his people that it was wrong to worship statues that they make with their own hands, statues that do them no good and don't even reply to them! Noah, pbuh, kept asking his people to worship God for 950 years, day and night. Finally, he prayed to God that none of them shall survive, except for the believers,.
Nowadays, science enables us to do a lot of things, but the challenge is still there.
Aug 20 2012: I think religion is a cultural or social technology that often tries to explain things like how we got here and how we should life. Just like Language there are many variations.
I have read some of the Qur'an, in English, not the arabic. Even so it was quite poetic in places. It seemed better planned than the OT or NT, because it was done by one person over a shorter time and had the older materials to leverage. It is a great book, a great work of medieval literature. I didn't start by assuming it was the work of god and didnt find it'that different to the writings of other religions.
Much of what you write assumes the Qurán and your interpretation of it is truth. I see as much truth in it as you would see in the writings of Confucious or Buddhist Sutras. In fact /i have found some Buddhist teachings more profound that much of the Abrahamic traditions.
You believe there won't be any more prophets till end times. Most Christians believe Jesus was God and brought the new testament teachings and that the Qurán and book of Mormon are false or from the Devil. As far as I can tell you are all equally likely to be right or wrong.
Many aspects of the human condition have not changes that much. Maybe New Atheist's are like Abraham bringing an unwanted message of truth.
If Noah actually existed as described, which I doubt, and he prayed to God to kill every one, he is an Evil man. And if god killed everyone, including innocent children for not doing what he wanted, this being is pure evil incarnate.
You talk about Justice after death. Some Christians believe many will go to Hell, including you for not choosing Jesus as Lord and Saviour and repenting. I'll be there with you suffering for eternity. Inifinite punishment for a finite crime is not Justice it is evil.
And what crime is it to see there is no compelling evidence for any religion I know. They all look man made, written by men. taught by men. Often with backward morality. What god requires worship while hidinAug 22 2012: Hi Obey No1kinobe,
Some of the English interpretations of the meaning of Qur'an's words are good, though they're different from the original. However, they'd provide you with some insight of what's in Qur'an. It's good you tried.
"Many aspects of the human condition have not changes that much. Maybe New Atheist's are like Abraham bringing an unwanted message of truth."
Abraham, seeing his people worshipping statues, tried to seek the truth. He looked at the stars, sun and moon and thought one of them may be god, but they all vanished and he knew that God is always present. Then, he asked God to guide him. Then, Abraham, pbuh, faced his people and said it was wrong that they worship statues they make, statues that do them no good, statues that don't talk back to them. He asked them to worship the Creator.
Imagine what would have happened if Pharaoh and his army, who were chasing Moses and the Jews, did not drown. You think it was harsh that Noah's people drowned, but it was merciful. You think so because you think earthly life is the end, but life is only a stop before the afterlife. If they stayed longer they would have earned more punishment because they would have spread corruption and they would have lived like animals, eating and sleeping without even trying to know their Creator. Besides, you cannot question God's justice. God has created humans and He knows them best. His justice is absolute. Human's justice is biased and faulty.
It is mentioned in Qur'an that Jews will say only Jews will go to heaven and Christians will say only Christians will go to heaven, but they're only wishing. God will judge everyone and truth will be revealed. Our thoughts of owning the only 'tickets' to heaven are hopeful thinking.
The crime is ignoring the truth when a path to it was offered. The crime is prefering to live like animals caring only about food and earthly pleasures instead of trying to see with faith that all of us and everything around us was created by God.Aug 22 2012: "... like Abraham bringing an unwanted message of truth"
This is totally different. I don't have any clue what Atheists spend their lives doing. Perhaps they're worshipping TV, video games or movies. Or perhaps they are chasing money or power. Perhaps they spend it on earthly pleasures.
Does any of this have any value after we die? Does any of that sound like a purpose of life to you? Well, to me, it does not.
You should know that all this is useless and meaningless because the moment we die, we leave all this behind. You should think there is something more important, something more purposeful to do in life, something that will remain with you after you die.
Then, you'll have questions like: Where do I go after I die?
My answer: Where were you before you were born? You were not here before you were born and you will not be here after you die. There must be some Power that brought you to life and when you die you'll return to the exact same Power.
Life is only a short stop. I don't know how you plan to spend it, but I hope you'll do it well.
Peter Law
Aug 16 2012: Hi Amr.
- +3
That's some subject. As many interested parties are Atheist on this site, you are bound to get interesting threads.
I became a Christian in mid life by studying the history, & science of the whole thing. The relationship of the three faiths is actually fairly straightforward.
The Jewish bible is the Old Testament. It tells of a coming Messiah who will save them.
The Christian bible is the Old & New Testament. Which allegedly tells of the arrival of said Messiah.
The Muslim bible is the OT + NT +. Koran. Which claims to be an update of the OT &. NT
So all three have the OT. My strategy was to test the NT against the OT. It seems to flow directly one to the other. Many of the prophecies of the OT are fulfilled in the NT, especially relating to Jesus being Messiah. The NT also warns that it completes the revelation & we should be sceptical of any additions.
The Koran demotes Jesus from Messiah to prophet, on a par with Abraham & Mohammed himself. So I don't think it is in the same league as the old & new testaments.
Some say that all three have the one god. My reading is that Jews & Christians have the same god, but the Muslim god is another thing entirely.That is my opinion.
There is much archeological evidence in support of the bible. Just google it.
Aug 16 2012: Hi there,
Thanks for your comment. I really appreciate it.
"As many interested parties are Atheist on this site, you are bound to get interesting threads." I'm interested in reading all the opinions, as long as everyone agrees to a keep respectable firm line when talking about the Creator. (I usually say "the Creator" in English conversations to avoid misunderstandings.)
"The NT also warns that it completes the revelation & we should be sceptical of any additions."
I have two questions regarding this point.
- Are you sure nothing was added or altered?
- Why are the Holy "Bible"s avoided nowadays when talking about economy, laws and governments (and other institutions)? Why would people defy something they believe in?
I believe we, as humans, are very simple and fragile creatures. Perhaps we had a huge technological advance, but in fact we changed none of the rules that govern life. We are the same as before if not even more fragile nowadays. It's only wild guesses that people get if they talk about what may happen in the afterlife and what the purpose of life is without referring to any Holy book. Technology made life easier, but it didn't change the basic rules of life.
Some Atheists may claim the Holy books came from 'aliens', but then how did aliens know our languages unless they know our languages and how we 'speak' specially that prophets always spoke in their people's tongue. Even then, the claimed aliens would need to know the rules of living and how human bodies are created and structured. Besides, that would simply move the question to another place: If it were by aliens, then Who created the aliens? Who made the laws that goven life? Definitely not humans. The world has a very strict order that governs it and it cannot be claimed to be something random.
PS Isn't what you have mentioned regarding Islam similar to what Jews think about Christianity?
Peter Law
Aug 17 2012: Hi Amr,
- +2
I agree using the title 'Creator' is a good idea.
Am I sure nothing was altered or added ? I must believe that the Creator of the Universe would have little trouble in getting his word to us accurately. We could talk about Jewish scribes being scrupulous in their work etc., but in the end the bible is not a work of man. It is true that there are many translations, & many slight differences. It is also true that some distort the words, & still others doubt that they really mean what they say & attach new meanings to them. Many of these problems we can overcome by study, but in the end we have to trust that our creator can get the information over to us. We may not have 100% accuracy, but we can 'know' him, which is the whole point.
The western nations were largely formed on biblical principles. They have thrived because they followed them. Today our knowledge of our Creator is reducing, & few take it seriously enough to run their lives by these principles. Money is our 'god', & consequently our nations are in decline both morally & fiscally.
I agree that our 'technology' doesn't alter the human condition, & about the Aliens.
Yes the Jews say similar things about Christians. Each man must seek the truth for himself. I see the OT. &. The NT as part of the same revelation. To me the Koran is a different book. That is my opinion from my studies, others of course differ. One thing I do know; we are all children of the Creator, whatever we believe. He loves us all dearly & wants communion with us.
Great subject.
:-)Aug 18 2012: Peter, if I could deffer to your bible knowledge. I'm rusty. Did the OT say the Messiah would be god incarnate?
Also having read the OT couldn't the authors of the NT have written it in a way to fulfill the OT.
I note most of Jews were not convinced Jesus was their Messiah or God incarnate. Which seems very odd.
I suggest Western Nations have thrived due to trade and technology and military power and perhaps the protestant work ethic. Many European nations only become nation states in the last 150 years or so. Italy. Germany, Czech republic etc. Papal power until the reformation was not a great time, actually up to vatican 2 if you ask me. And the protestants fought the catholics for centuries. It was so bad some of them escaped to the US. Interdenominational Christian conflict persisted in the US. The non establishment of religion clause was to stop the government picking one Christian group taking power over others and not to protect other religions or atheists.
I suggest democracy, equal rights for women freeing up more people to contribute to the economy, rule of law, the weakening or replacement of monarchy and theocratic power etc etc.
The US constitution and bill of rights etc are children of the enlightenment.
Any proof or evidence that Christianity has been the primary force behind Western supremacy? Sounds like a myth to me.
I note the Greeks, the Romans and Chinese and Mayan Empires all rose without Christianity or Judaism
Peter Law
Aug 18 2012: Hi Obey.
- +2
As with most things, the bible needs a bit of study; but this is pretty clear :-
Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Not that much into history, just observe that generally it helps to obey the rules.
It is true that most Jews do not accept the NT just as was prophecied. It takes a bit to admit that you've killed your Messiah, but they will get there in the end.
The NT writers may indeed have tried to fulfil prophecies, but they could never have made such a good job of it. It would be difficult to organise where & when to be born,& the whole sequence of events surrounding his death, plus the whole timescale down to a day prophecied in Daniel.
I guess if you really don't want it to be true, the that's what you're stuck with.
Aug 18 2012: Thanks Peter.Aug 26 2012: " Also having read the OT couldn't the authors of the NT have written it in a way to fulfill the OT. ..."
I don't think that argument can really hold a lot of water.
There were many prophecies that were written in the OT, and while some could "be manipulated by after-the-fact authors", many could not be pre-determined.
Gen 49:10; Isa 9:6, 11:1, 53; Dan 9:25-27, Mic 5:2 are all items that could NOT be reversed engineered.
I WILL grant you that other prophecies COULD be colored in if one chooses to see it that way, but Foretelling birth lineage, location, time are not easily adjusted.Sep 13 2012: BTW Mother Africa has just dropped by. She is very old and we have all been helping her out and Mother India has plenty of wisdom too. They lend me their books but only just started to read those. I am a real person and do like metaphors to describe complex ideas, hope you understand what I am saying in this. We do not need blood worship but we do need to combine what we know about environmental management globally. Hate fracing of any kind and Mother Nature is starting to do a lot of fracing herself. We are ants as far as Mother Nature is concerned. Dinner is about de-escalating the situation. Dinner is about lots of things and supporting the family of humankind.
Sep 13 2012: Tired of abrahamic religions.
In fact tired of any religion thinking they have some special insight into absolute truth.Aug 29 2012: From what I know of some of the main spiritual texts of the world, there is a lot of crossover in symbols and icons but we seem to have lost the vocabulary to share the ideas. It is so difficult to talk about what people believe, about what sustains them at times when all logic seems to have disappeared. In many places even today people literally pay for their lives for asking questions about the spiritual traditions of their culture. You have to ask what is the fear which leads to the repression of the majority in the name of religious cohesion. There is a huge amount of information that could be constructively shared by the elders and those knowledgeable in the vocabularies of the religions of the world. People who spend a lifetime in the study of these texts tend to be labelled deviant, mad or bad. I think at the root of it all is the fear of annihilation of one tradition over another. There is so much historic precedence for this. I think of the Tower of Babel. I would love to know what this story is about. I believe so many of the spiritual texts are about the most appropriate balance in human relationships and in environmental management but they are out of date. The ideas are there but not the evidence based research to back them up. It is so complex but sometimes it is the enthusiasm of youth that also complicates the picture. So many young minds seem to be filled with hate and intolerance because of the parent's lived experience, when things and events have moved on. It is in the balance and the reflecting upon the possible messages in the texts rather than blindly acting upon the texts that I hope answers and co-operation may be found. Really worried about the Middle East, no easy answers on this one it seems.
Aug 30 2012: Hi Elizabeth,
Thank you for your comment.
" I believe so many of the spiritual texts are about the most appropriate balance in human relationships and in environmental management but they are out of date."
I agree that the many of the spiritual texts aim for balance and justice. I'm not sure how they could become outdated or no longer valid. The rules that govern both humans and life on earth did not change. Perhaps some values changed, (for example, temperature, average lifetime etc..) but not the rules themselves . Our tools have developed greatly, of course, thanks to the technological advancement, but I don't think we changed. Our needs, motives and behaviours are perhaps similar to the first humans. I think spiritual texts regulate our needs, motives and behaviours, among other things. Thus, they can't get old, unless they're not applied properly, or they didn't ensure true justice and balance due to some bias.
- Why couldn't we achieve a true model of balance and justice after all this time of populating earth?
I find many examples in history of people who preferred dominance and superiority to balance and justice. The moment they move away from maintaining balance, they start becoming illogical, and then they start using communication methods that involve violence. I think this is the reason of the conflict. It is exactly the same like it started with Cain and Abel. This explanation could be wrong, of course. What do you think?
- Do we, humans, want balance and justice? How many would vote "YES" for this question and would it be their true answer?
"It is in the balance and the reflecting upon the possible messages in the texts rather than blindly acting upon the texts that I hope answers and co-operation may be found."
I think the same. I should add that balance and justice should be humans' goal, not superiority and dominance.
It's injustice that causes the middle-east to bleed. Super Powers do not seem to want justice. Thus, the bleeding may never stop.
Aug 30 2012: Just wanted to add that sometimes I find I cannot summarise what I want to say effectively in the 2000 character limit. Yes I was trying to say that I think the pace of growth in scientific evidence-based information is absolutely brilliant but it is too fast. I am passionate about people and their enviroment. I am very worried that the planet has finite resources and global systems that are being pushed into meltdown by the speed of technological progress. It is more than 'global warming', it is a 'global systems meltdown' and this applies across the spectrum from food production and health to politics and world trade. When people feel threatened firstly they protect what they already have (hence religious dogma) then they fight to get a proportion of the resources that are still available. There are conflicts all over the globe now, not just the Middle East but in thinking and debating about what is happening in the Middle East perhaps a model could be devised that would help resolve other conflicts. One of my favourite metaphors about human spirit is the Zorastrian 'little flame above the head of each person'. I am sure someone will tell me I have misinterpreted what it means but for me it is such a useful allegory. Really want to encourage you with this debate and it is lovely to get the feedback. Thank you.Aug 22 2012: Either good or bad, we are what we do.Sep 14 2012: Only have New Revised Standard Version Anglicised edition of Bible to refer to. Who knows what the original message might have been. Different times, different social rules, different everything. Just wanted to suggest ultimately we are social beings who are aware enough to realise the potential of our environment and aware enough to support and nurture it rather than strip it bare. So much beauty in the world, so much beauty in nature, so much potential in alternative energy sources like solar power and tidal power. So much information available. See in the news Pope is heading to Lebanon. Very difficult, tense situation. Thought maybe rather than tanks, bible might be referring to 'a thousand and one' different electrical appliances and suggesting eating the wrong sort of power might be an alllusion to petro-chemical based energy sources like fossil fuels. Do get some strange ideas at times. The original meaning of the texts is lost. People need reasons to celebrate these days, reasons to get outside and enjoy the fresh air and just be with other people. Lots of amazing scientific research in the last few weeks, possible solution to diabetes, all sorts of advances. Evidence based scientific progress. Wonderful.
Sep 14 2012: Scientific research is without doubt very important. It improves our tools and quality of life, but it doesn't change morals, values or what's inside people's hearts. It improves our understanding of life and the rules that govern it, but it doesn't change the rules. There are still many questions that evidence-based scientific research cannot, and possibly will never, answer.
Also, probably you have noticed that the biggest part of the scientific research of super powers is about developing war toys that are more capable of destroying cities and killing people.
Do you think it is possible for religion to coexist with evidence-based scientific progress?
They don't have to contradict because the goal of both, science and religion, is to reach the truth, right?
Sep 15 2012: I think what might be clouding the issue is the idea that there is just one truth. I think there is a great deal of wisdom in the spiritual texts of the world but you must also remember the historical, cultural and environmental context of them. It is also so important not to 'read into them' what you might like them to say. I think the reliance of science on mathematical, geometry is a little unhelpful at times. The idea that certain scientific knowledge is incompatible with other knowledge doesn't help but I have found people with a life-time invested in one career can be very arrogant and protective to the point that the way they behave can be hugely damaging. Rather than using linear modelling for scientific progression sometimes it might be necessary to think of a multi-layered, more complex, holistic modelling. Three stage, four stage, six stage modelling particularly to do with things like filtration and condensation have lead to huge steps forward in management of processes involving water. Sometimes it is in observation, a little lateral thinking and 'sleeping on it' that really constructive results can be found. Do have a 'bee in my bonnet' about environment and food production. Did you know the condensation trails from aircraft have actually been acting as artificial clouds and deflecting excess solar radiation. Not sure what is happening with natural cloud cover, not enough rain where rain is badly needed, too much rain elsewhere. Badly affecting food production globally. Too many people time impoverished and driven. People need to be free to make their own choices, basic psychology people respond to loss rather than potential gain. The hospital admissions for stress related mental illness in U.K, have rocketed in last year. It's hard to have faith, hope, charity and perserverance in a society that demands consumption then denies the means to achieve it.Sep 14 2012: What started out a a genuine question about religion has evolved into a sermon on the mount by Amr Salah. It's becoming very preachy and disrespectful of the Rules pertaining to zealotry and proselytizing, in my opinion.
I'll let TED decide.
Sep 14 2012: Thanks for the warning.
My opinions and comments represented my side only. It was never my intention to disrespect any rule or any person. I thought my opinion, whether it was right or wrong, can add to the discussion.
All the comments and opinions are respected and appreciated (while considering my request earlier of using "respectful language when arguing about God, angels, prophets, or Books." - which is a fair request, I think).
If I did or said something wrong, or disrespectful, please warn me about it.
Sep 14 2012: When a someone in the USA quotes the bible repeatedly to answer a question instead of speaking from their mind, not God's ,we call it preaching. In a country where the religion is intertwined with the government so there is no distinction between the Laws of man and the Laws of God, this could be problem for those people when dealing with Westerner's.
In the USA, we have an understanding that religion and government are to remain separate. This allows for people to have their own private religions practices and government is applied to all of the people without regard to their religion. The USA is a country of many religions, not just one.
In the USA and most other Western countries, we never say it is against the law of god to do this or that. People make the laws, not God. Our fellow citizens in the USA. who practice the religion of Islam understand this. Their religion is not the dominate religion. No Religion in the USA is a dominate religion.
This could be a problem for people who live in Muslim countries where their religion is their Law. It may be the one thing that separates us from them (you) forever. We will never change and we do expect every country in the world that seeks democracy to understand that controlling religious thought in their country is imperative for civilized rule.
We see in the Muslim countries that are protesting today, burning our flag and killing our diplomats and creating mayhem in their countries that they are very far behind the Western world in creating a sense of harmony within their own country and the world. It could be that they are incapable of merging with the rest of the world in a global community because when someone who is nuknowledgeable about their religion makes a certain remark about one of their prophets, they could be jailed or killed.
We find such behavior heinous and uncivilized. No religion in our country acts that way and we have a large Islamic population in the USA.
Sep 14 2012: Honestly, I used quotes from a translation of Qur'an because I wanted to make less mistakes. I thought it was better than using my words, specially that my English is not good.
I guessed this was what annoyed you but I wasn't sure.
I'll make sure I won't overdo it. Thank you again for the warning.
I'll reply briefly to the points you've mentioned
1. Those who made the film hate the middle-east and want it to be engulfed in chaos.
2. Anger in the Middle-East (and Africa) towards the American Imperialism has very good reasons and very deep roots.
3. "We find such behavior heinous and uncivilized."
I'm not going to reply to this.
I don't blame American citizens for the mistakes of their leaders, generals and politicians.
All human lives are equal. I still hope for justice and peace. I still think dialogues between different civilizations and cultures should continue. I believe people should have all access to the truth and that knowledge should be available to everyone.
What I know is very little and there is very little that I could do.Sep 15 2012: Anyway, this discussion would end soon. I don't think I'll have the strength to start or participate in any discussion for a long while.Sep 15 2012: I just got caught in some protests in Sydney about the film.
Some had signs saying behead those who insult the Prophet.
I support freedom of religion up to the point it harms other people.
I also don't think it wise to be stupidly provocative. However, why should people who do not believe in yur religion be punished for breaking one of your religions taboos?
You mention US imperialism. The native Americans copped worse than the middle East. Also Islamic forces in the past conquered other's lands. Also I guess the coptics in Egypt have had a hard time too.
By reacting to this video Muslims are doing exactly what the filmer wanted.
Sep 15 2012: Worse Obey,it could've been reworked by a bunch of bored kids.Sep 15 2012: Hi Obey No1kinobe,
I heard Christian Egyptians saying those who insulted the prophet must be beheaded. They understand that those who made the film hate Egypt and Egyptians. They know that those who made the film want evil to Egypt and to the middle-east. They know the film makers wanted to spread hatred and chaos.
"By reacting to this video Muslims are doing exactly what the filmer wanted."
Not reacting is just as bad if not worse.
It should have been peaceful protests, but I guess some think this would not be enough. They have good reasons to think so. Also, some people (from all sides) probably desire this to escalate, not necessarily with good intentions.
And yes, people here pay the worst price for the conspiracies made "there". I read a text before by an American encouraging selling weapons to the middle-east so that people would be killed and thus the world will be "less populated".Sep 15 2012: You've done great so far Amr.
You're English is better than mine.
Sep 15 2012: Thank you, Ken.
I don't think my English is good. You are already good and you can easily get better if you made it a primary goal to achieve.Sep 13 2012: BTW after previous post. Dinner is not meant to be about some super-merger and creating a monster enterprise. Dinner is about supporting three adults who have their own families and grandchidren to co-operate and stop fighting. Mother China. Mother Russia. Mother South America. Mother Europe. Mother Australasia all very worried about what Mother U.S.A. and Mother Middle-East Arabia are fighting about. Plenty to go round ladies. Start telling your sons it is not O.K. to go round hitting the next door neighbours kids over the head. Do not give the neighbours kids guns to play with. Ladies you need to sort our your own environments, the weather is warning you, look at the wind, where is the rain ? Look at the crops failing. You have the wrong sorts of insects, pests. Do you really want to be eating locusts without some honey. You need cows to draw off those pests. BTW women are not cows but people too. Mother Nature makes women strong for good reason. Women soak up all the environmental toxicity. Women and men must be nurtured and respected or it literally gets passed on in changes to the genetic blue print of us. Hate shouting. Think of me as lonely grandparent wanting the kids to visit for dinner and not sure how to reach them, let alone arrange a time for them to come over and chat.Sep 13 2012: Amr and Helen you are so right. The three Abrahamic religions have so much in common yet they fight each other like disobedient children. They all worship the same god but they are out of step with each other, due to the different environments. Referencing Jung, Man and his symbols. The emblems of nations are generally on their national flags. Respectfully they are a crescent moon and a star and a constellation of stars. They are all images from the night sky because originally it is too hot in the middle of the day to meet as a community. In any very hot country, the housework and shopping are done in the morning, then you rest, then in the afternoon you meet up with friends, neighbours, family and do business transactions. At night you go to sleep on the roof of the building and look at the night sky before you sleep. Or you camp out and look at the stars. Or you have a building where the cattle are kept downstairs and you live above them, i.e. natural heat source, then you sleep up on the roof because of the smell. Technology has moved on. Muslims do not worship any graven image but have given the world maths and philosophy. Jewish people travel and have given the world so much in life lessons and knowledge, Christians wanted to test and question and in revulsion science developed and questioning minds have led to what is currently known as the U.S.A. All 3 religions just need to adjust their time frame. Worship for Moslems Friday, Jews Saturday, Christians Sunday. You are all the same. Consider me your Mother telling you now stop fighting, come and sit down, have a dinner together and let's sort this out. Trying to repair the damage of the Crusades and hug everyone. Do not give inappropriate presents to people. Thinking about camels, they tread softly and have big feet. Think about it U.S.A.. Power generating equipment fresh water, crops to grow and supporting communities not killing children. Know my spiritual texts. Love peace, hate war
Sep 13 2012: I'm not sure they exactly follow the same god.
The latter 2 are certainly derivative of the first.
They borrow the origin stories but have a different picture of what god is and what he is telling us.
Yahew is different to the Trinity Christian god. To Jews, the Christian belief overlay is a false revelation. Jesus is not an aspect of God.
Allah is also not part of a trinity and no longer just focused on the chosen people. Both Jews and Christians refute the Muslim revelations.
All 3 have different ideas of what god is, what he did, what he has told us etc.
Actually further bogus revelations (they are all bogus in my view) have further changed god - Swedebborgs, The Jehovahs witnesses, Christian Science, Latter day saints, Moonies etc perhaps Bahai. These are also Abrahamic derivatives. Perhaps more recent, less popular, with the bogus nature of their origins better understood, but are just as valid or invalid as the earlier 3.
If you back to the earliest foundations of all these Yahweh is a rascist, genocide, monster. Asking Abrahamic religions to get along ignores the foundation god. Yahweh the tribal war god, city destroying, plague sending, global flooding divine dictator.
Wouldn't it be better to appeal to our common humanity rather than similarities in superstitious beliefs?
Empathy for fellow humans is better when free from religious dogma and superstition,Sep 11 2012: They are entirely different.
That's why you have Jews (Those who believe in Judaism, not to be confused with Israeli people), Muslims (those who believe in Islam), and Christians (those who believe in the New Testament and Christianized Jewish writings).
The one thing the Jews and Muslims have in common is the One God testament. The Christians have three gods, the son the father and the Holy ghost.
Sep 11 2012: Hi John,
Welcome back to the discussion and thank you for your comment.
I think there are many similiarities between the Abrahamic religions. I think several doors and channels should be kept open between people with different beliefs and that unbiased knowledge about Abrahamic religions should be available to everyone. The primary goal of this discussion was to help even though what I know is very little.
I plan to reply to your comment as soon as I have a chance. I wanted to discuss something based on a previous comment you have made about Abraham's - pbuh - story.
Sep 12 2012: Well thank you and I'll be waiting. I should be online most of the night. I should add that I'm Jewish and a former Christian, even though I'm mainly Agnostic. I do go to Temple because I like to keep my doors open
Sep 12 2012: I noticed from your comments that you are honest. (as far as I can tell). Thus, I think I can discuss various points with you even though this would probably be a difficult discussion. I'll post the points one by one as replies. I'd really appreciate your answers. Also, it would be appreciated if you quote passages from Torah (or any book you trust) to support your points.
I'll quote passages from Qura'n. (because Muslims know about Abraham, and other prophets, peace be upon them, mainly from Qur'an)Sep 12 2012: You've mentioned that you are "Jewish and a former Christian". I've read a small Arabic booklet about Talmud before. It mentioned that there was an incident when an American woman converted to Judaism, but apparently this conversion was rejected by orthodox Jews because, according to Talmud, only a child of Jewish parents can be Jewish (?). Is this story true?
- Also, I noticed there are strange things mentioned (?) in Talmud. What do you think about Talmud, generally?
Sep 12 2012: I'm sure you're aware that the meaning of the Hebrew word for Talmud means "to teach" It is a book that contains instructions and commentaries by the Rabbi's on how to draw oneself closer to God.
While there was war waged by the Jews in ancient times against those who did not practice the Jewish Religion, such tactics are considered unholy by Jews today. Jews are aligned into different sects, just as it is in the Christian, Islamic religions. So there is a difference of opinion in how to practice some of the teachings but they do not kill one another over the differences.
Islam, makes no distinction about using violence in the modern world against those who would practice another religion or make disdainful comments about their holy book or it's author, Mohammad.
In Islam, there are more than one way of interpreting the Qura'n. They assimilate themselves into sects and wage war upon each other. Why do they do this? Why did they kill the Ambassador from the United States in Lybia when he had nothing to do with that film? He was a good man and loved Islamic people. Why are Islamic people so prone to violence?
Sep 13 2012: "Why did they kill the Ambassador from the United States in Libya when he had nothing to do with that film?"
My deepest condolences are to the Ambassador's family.
However, I have nothing to say to any American leader, government, administration or politician. We don't need to commemorate the bloodsheds, wars, invasions, and occupation carried by the American, NATO and Israeli troops for the past 60 years, but we didn't forget.
The Muslim World did not forget the West's crimes in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan… The American administration should stop the bloody hypocrisy already. They cannot sweet-talk the prey while stabbing it in the back over and over. The West doesn't care about human lives in the middle-east, or anywhere else. The West cares only about the West's interests.
That film has offended the Muslim world. Mohammed, pbuh, is the last prophet, we believe. Just as Moses, pbuh, has led the Jews to freedom, Mohammed, pbuh, has led Arabs to freedom. God willing, Mohammed, pbuh, united the Arab world, and the tyranny of the Roman Empire was overthrown. Qur'an is the Words of God, we believe. Qur'an is the guide and light that was sent to all people.
"Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful." 9.128
"Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-" 62.1,2Sep 13 2012: It is because Mohammed, pbuh, wasn't one of them that many Jews didn't accept him. "Is it they who would portion out the Mercy of thy Lord? It is We Who portion out between them their livelihood in the life of this world: and We raise some of them above others in ranks, so that some may command work from others. But the Mercy of thy Lord is better than the (wealth) which they amass." 43.32
"And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith." 2.89,90Sep 14 2012: Amr, is it ever justified to kill in the name of religion because of some insult to your religion?
I guess most religious beliefs think their conflicting religious beliefs are sacred and the truth.
Just some cultures and religions are more likely to be violent due to religious motivations.
Sad when people think their faith based religious beliefs are more sacred than human life.
People who kill in a gods name have given themselves to evil.Sep 14 2012: Amr, 2 wrongs don't make a right
I think many in the middle east are justified in their resentment against the US etc for many things.
They should also resent theocracy, religious intolerance, arab dictators and kings etc.
The cycle of vendetta can go on for ever.
The handover of half of Palestine to the Jews was one of the great atrocities of the 20th Century in my view and an inappropriate response to the European Holocaust.
The powerful will always try to take what they can. The oppressed will resent.
If the oppressed in the middle east want to win over moderate support in the west you don't do it by killing people for religious reasons. There are plenty of more justified oppressions than attacking freedom of speech. You will always lose that battle. This just builds on the stereotypes that that part of the world is ruled by a barbaric religion.
Killing people in gods name is a lose lose.
Look at Ghandi. Look at Nelson Mandela. That is how you win against the West. And also having nuclear weapons. Become strong but also pick your battles and appeal to secular values of fairness, equality etc.
Sure there is bias and fundamentalism and self interest on both sides. Also I guess some of the violence may be using religious offence as a cover. Also I have difficulty understanding the depth of religious offence that would trigger violence when I think all religions are man made and false. I guess I would fight to protect freedom from religion, democracy, freedom of speech, freedom from oppression etc
From the outside the middle east often seems to swap one form of oppression - Ottomans, European Colonial Powers, USA backed dictators for religious oppression.
I wonder how many people in Eqypt would prefer a secular government/leadership and freedom of and from religion, and how many want a Muslim State.
Honestly people who want theocracy baffle me. I guess we can all be programmed differently depending on our experience and upbringing.Sep 14 2012: Amr, wouldn't we all be better off if religion become more of a private affair and not become political?
Why do so many religious people think they have a right to force their faith based unsubstantiated beliefs on everyone one else?
If you think adultery is deserving of death, then kill yourself if you commit adultery. Don't go around killing others.
Why should we be threatened with death and violence if we say something that is offensive to your religious sensibilities. On what basis is it ever justified to kill because someone said something that offends?
If you make an exception or excuses for your religion than the same logic applies to evangelicals who support Israel and Jewish settlers building in Palestine. Their religious belief is their justification.
Religion should not be an excuse.Sep 14 2012: Obey No1kinobe,
Nothing justifies the attack on the embassy, the loss of lives or the damage to the properties that happened.
I won't be surprised if this was carried out by men of Gaddafi's regime.
Also, don't forget that there are Atheists, Christians, Jews and Muslims who would just love to see a Holy War or a World War III.
Those who made the film did not have good intentions. They invested much effort and time to make it with the sole purpose of attacking Islam. They chose this specific timing to broadcast the film on purpose. They wanted to intensify the conflict. They wanted to spread hatred. They want the middle-east to be burnt to ashes. They want to see people of all religions and nationalities suffering and dying.
There was no reason for any hostile reaction and certainly there was no reason for any clashes or killing. Yes, peaceful protests were very important to show what we felt. Yes, Muslims believe in Islam and believe Mohammed, pbuh, is the last prophet. We believe in all prophets and we respect all prophets, and we expect the same respect from others.
The West may cut our tongues, but they can never change what's in our hearts. We believe Islam is the truth.
I don't see any reason for the Arab governments to be very cooperative with American administration. Perhaps if they start to treat people equally, there could be hope for real cooperation. There were so many times when the NATO strikes killed whole families in Afghanistan. Is the ambassador's life more precious than civilians in Afghainstan or Syria?
Isn't it hypocrisy to talk about one person's life and forget the thousands?
"wouldn't we all be better off if religion become more of a private affair and not become political?"
I believe religion is meant to preserve human life and to ensure justice and equality. I believe religion ensures peace and balance of the world. I believe religion would help the world. This is my dream.
I understand you have reasons to disagree.
Aug 31 2012: Generally said , as long as these religions are for what's considered good by the most people , yes they are basically the same : 'to not kill' , 'to not lie' ....... this kind of imperatives are found all over religious spectrum . However , what gives them the essence of their religion is what differentiate them --- the doctrines .
- +1
Aug 31 2012: Hi E G,
Welcome to the discussion.
While I agree there are fundamental differences between the Abrahamic religions, I think they have a lot more in common than ethics.
Actually, I think they represent a single entity with the title "Abrahamic religions" that's uniqely different from almost everything else that humans have known, with a few exceptions. Also, their effect on humanity have been of a major scale and magnitude.
They are like branches of the same tree, in many ways.Aug 29 2012: Christianity is about a personal relationship with Jesus as one would have with a lover; It is not a religion.
Aug 29 2012: Hi Feyisayo,
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your comment.Sep 2 2012: I guess submission to the entity of Allah is not religion either.
Imagining Hindu deities engaged in your life, is also not religion.
Talking with Bodhisattva's or gods, that is not religion.
Imagining the Mormon god as your friend, that is not religion.
Inviting fertility gods into your life, that is not religion.
Having a relationship with nature spirits, or ghosts or other gods is not religion.
So the moral views and spiritual assumptions, connected with these beliefs, none of that is religion.
When you pray or talk with your deity, that is not religion.
So your idea that Jesus is god or the son of god, that is not a religious belief?
What is your definition of a religion? Any religion except Christianity.
Better give up the tax breaks then.
Anil Goel
Aug 26 2012: I have always questioned the authenticity of a revelation thru a single man.
- +1
The OT was written by over 30 authors over 1500 years;
the NT was written by 8-10 authors, and
the Koran was written by 1.
Suggesting that the one is more authoritative than the 40 (most of whom could NOT have collaborated over a 1600 year period) and can overturn the writings of so many martyrs (as were most prophets) is to test the credibility of the "new revelation".
Aug 27 2012: Hi Anil Goel,
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your comment.
That one man who received the revelation was illiterate. He spoke only Arabic. He lived all his life in the desert among tribes.
Islam has united the tribes and it has spread vastly in a very short period. All people who became Muslims or lived under Islamic rule accepted the code (or laws) of Islam. Mohammed, pbuh, asked people to abandon worshipping statues, or "persons". He told them that there is only One God Who created heavens and earth. He told them that only faith, patience, righteousness and good deeds that may make one person better than another. People were freed from the lies. They started to realize that what Mohammed, pbuh, said was the truth. They testified that he was an honest man and that he has always said the truth, but many refused to abandon the lies they were living.
At one of the times, two persons were in a cave, while people gathered right above them searching for them in order to kill them. One of these two persons is the prophet that over a billion of Muslims now follow. This was not the only or the first time the tribes tried to kill him. But, he continued to live until his message was complete and Islam survived all the perils until this day. Some of the first Muslims were tortured and some were killed. They had to leave their homes and families and abandon all they had.
Notice a part of the treaty signed when Egypt was freed from the Romans' tyranny 1400 years ago:
"In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, this is the amnesty
which 'Amr ibn el-'Asi granted to the people of Misr, as
to themselves, their religion, their goods, their churches
and crosses, their lands and waters: nothing of these
shall be meddled with or minished;"
Lane Poole, A Hisotry of Egypt in the Middle Ages, p. 5
(I copied and pasted this)
According to what we believe, there won't be any new prophets coming. Also, it is believed that Qur'an will be preserved until the end.
Aug 27 2012: From the outside, Judism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Jehovahs witnesses, Swedenborgians, Christian scientist and all the denominations seem to come down to which one you have faith in, most often depending on where and when you were born.
Whether it is the supposed revelation of one person or many within a similar culture, revelation does not seem to be a very efficient way of communicating truth from a God if that is what is supposed to be happening.
Funny you are skeptical of each others claims but not your own.
The fact that people die for different beliefs might show they believe in their dfiierent beleifs strongly, but does not make them all true. All these conflicting beliefs can not be true. But they could all be false in their key claims.
Aug 27 2012: Hi Obey.
You are right that many die for what they believe in; even today. Muslims especially seem prone to this. However many must be mistaken, we can't all be right.
The difference with the new testament Christians was this. Most of them were around when Jesus was crucified. They were either eye witnesses, or knew eye witnesses, to his return from the grave. They died not for what they believed, but for what they knew to be fact. How stupid would you have to be to die for something you knew was a lie?
I was around when we landed on the moon. I visited the capsule when it came to our local transport museum, along with real moon rock. I would be very unlikely to endure pain to substantiate the theory that the moon is made of green cheese, even if that theory had taken hold in the populace.
These guys died for a fact; not a belief. That's the difference.
Brett Gracey
Aug 27 2012: I guess then any eyewitness account of anything, can and probably is true. Unless of course it's an eyewitness account that contradicts Christian history, then it's probably wrong.Aug 27 2012: Hi Obey No1kinobe,
- +1
"Funny you are skeptical of each others claims but not your own."
Actually, there was a time when I had many questions and I still didn't find answers for some of them until now. I could say that I don't think I would have changed much without that particular "incident" that I've told you about. Things have changed greatly over the past few years. Perhaps I took religion blindly and ignorantly at first when I was younger (and it wasn't entirely my fault), but that's not the case now.
- I have many reasons to believe in Islam that are based on reason and logic. I had to depend on these reasons heavily at first in order to find answers for questions I couldn't answer.
- Reading Qur'an and sunnah were among the strongest reasons because it is a really special experience. Also, for Muslims, they're the main sources of knowledge about Islam.
- Finally, there are reasons that are all based on belief. These were the strongest reasons, but they didn't come first.
My current belief is the fruit of all the different experiences and sources. It's still growing steadily.
--- from your comment below ---
"The Muslims have their own miracles."
True, I didn't mention miracles because I don't think belief should be built on miracles. People used to ask for miracles in the past, and yet, even then, many of them didn't believe. Also, Muslims believe Qur'an is a miracle that will remain.
People have acquired much knowledge nowadays compared to the past (even though what we know is still very little). Nowadays we enjoy greater amount of freedom. It is now easier to find information, and technology has made many difficult tasks easier. I don't think there is anything that hinders anyone from seeking the truth and finding it.
You have time. You have access to information. Also, the laws that govern life wouldn't lie to you. Seek answers in the land, the sea, and the sky, and even ask yourself about the truth. Make it your own personal investigationAug 27 2012: Hi Peter,
Obviously I'm not convinced that the resurrection occurred. If the bible says there were eye witnesses, that might be enough for you. Not me. I note the oldest gospels were written decades after the fact.
I would not be surprised if someone stole the body if a man called Jesus was .
Seems strange we have no records from the time if something so amazing happened.
The whole story is bizarre. And the creator of the universe expects us to be convinced by just another religious story in this or that book.
Noah was apparently an eye witness to the flood and we have no way to know he existed.
The Muslims have their own miracles. Same with the Mormons and other founders of various religions. I guess you are skeptical about these.I guess you are skeptical about these.
You are probably just as skeptical about Muslim miracles as I am about all of them.
There are gurus in India alive today and thousands of living people claim the gurus have done amazing miracles. I guess you are skeptical about these.
And if you think about it even if Jesus did appear to die and rose again then disappear, there is no reason to assume he is a god, there is no reason to assume everything written in the bible is true, or that everything they wrote after he died was what he would have wanted. Faith. Faith. Faith you apply only to one religion and not others.
It would have been impressive if Jesus or Moses or the Muslim Prophet performed a miracle where the key messages God wanted were instantly created on some exotic indestructible alloy or amazing technology. But no, carved stone, and paper and ink, and in 2/3 of the cases we don't know how long between the claimed evens and the oral stories were created and written down. How mundane.
There is nothing about the books that could not have been made up by men.
You will most likely find the same sort of circle of assumptions in Islam and other religions.
If god wanted to give us a message he could have more effectively.Aug 28 2012: To Amr Salah,
You wrote much about your beliefs, but did not really address the point that I made.


text:
Hi Terry fans, just thought I'd let you know I have several books listed on eBay.
Happy Bidding
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Tonyblack wrote:I really don't have a problem with this. It's Discworld related and therefore relevant to the site and the people who post here.
We used to have a trading thread - it probably got buried somewhere. That was just this sort of thing.
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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:26
Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:56
I Agree And the DR ordered them to take a Vacation basicly ...
Was on Sick leav to Relive Stree not beclose he was Sick with the Flu / Broken Leg or something.
Posted 14 March 2013 - 00:06
Unless a holiday abroad was specifically approved as a treatment for work-related stress then it's only right that they were fired. It's also worth pointing out that wrestling a shark cannot be less stressful than staying at home.
Posted 14 March 2013 - 00:11
Posted 14 March 2013 - 00:15
I find it funny that a Children's Charity fired him for.. helping children..
I wonder though, in what way do they propose that you relieve stress during your 'stress leave', if the repercussion of doing something to relieve it can cost you your Job. If he was taking sick leave, I'd understand; but stress leave should be used to de-stress which would imply a vacation or whatever means to de-stress.
Posted 14 March 2013 - 00:22
No, they were fired because they were dishonest. It's really not difficult to understand.
If I was on sick leave for stress then I'd make sure to get permission from the doctor and employer beforehand. I wouldn't simply book a holiday to Australia for two months. It's common sense.


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Maine man badly hurt in crashBy Brent Curtis
staff writer | December 11,2013
Albert J. Marro / Staff Photo Vermont State POlice and Rutland City firemen responded to a single vehicle accident on Sherwood Drive in Mendon Tuesday moring. The firefighters had to use several tools to pry apart the pick-up truck extract the man from his vehicle. Firefighter Michael delehenty, right, begins picking up the truck pieces. 12/10/13MENDON A Maine man was taken to a New Hampshire hospital with serious injuries Tuesday following a crash on Sherwood Drive in Mendon.
Noah Taylor, 33, of Portland, Maine, was listed in serious condition after he was taken by ambulance to Rutland Regional Medical Center shortly after the crash Tuesday morning. He was transported early in the afternoon to Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center where a spokeswoman said Tuesday night she couldnt release any information about his condition.
Vermont State Police Trooper Blake Cushing said Taylor suffered a fractured skull in the crash and internal bleeding of the brain.
Taylor was found inside his wrecked 1998 Toyota Tacoma by another motorist who came upon the scene at about 11:30 a.m. There were no witnesses to the crash, police said.
I saw he was breathing and ran to the closest house and told them to call 911, said Jacob Galvin, who was returning to a home on the dead-end street off Meadowlake Drive. I tried to ask him his name, but he wasnt conscious. I just tried to keep him still and his neck braced.
Rescuers who arrived at the scene soon after had to cut Taylor free of the wreck before they could administer to his wounds. Rutland City Deputy Fire Chief Fran Robillard said crews had to cut through the roof and a door to pull Taylor from the vehicle.
The cause of the crash remains under investigation although Cushing said speed was a factor on the steep rural road where the speed limit is 25 mph.
Cushing said Taylors truck crossed into the oncoming lane while round a tight curve in the road and crashed into a tree.
brent.curtis @rutlandherald.comMORE IN Local & StateRecovery takes time, patience and a desire to change. Full StoryMayor Louras wants the city to have a better idea on what to pay its department heads. Full StoryThe Rutland Town Select Board plans to appoint a new member next week who will serve until a... Full Story
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The Japanese branch of Sony Computer Entertainment has revealed a new DualShock 3 controller on Thursday. The Playstation 3 accessory is based on the upcoming exclusive title, "God of War: Ascension." The face of Kratos, the main character in the video game can be seen on the right-hand side while the "God of War" symbol is located on the directional buttons area. You can check out the images, as well as screens from the action-adventure title, in the slideshow at the top of this article.
The "God of War: Ascension" DualShock 3 controller is bundled with the game in Japan. The package, which will also come with a Blade of Judgment in-game weapon, has a price tag of 9,980 yen, approximately $118.49 in U.S. dollars.
What do we think?


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The yard is used as the standard unit of field-length measurement in the American, English, and Canadian games of football (although Canada has officially adopted the metric system).
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 only provides for the use of yards and miles when showing distances on British road signposts. But, in 2007 and 2008, many driver location signs using kilometers to specify the distance from specified reference points were erected on many British Motorways.
A corresponding unit of area is the square yard.
In the context of American and Canadian concrete mixers' loads, a cubic yard is always called simply a yard. A typical marking would indicate that a mixer had a capacity of "11 yards" or "1.5 yards".
Yard also is a term used in financial markets for one billion (1010) units of currency (derived from the French milliard) in order to avoid the ambiguity between "billion" and "million". Example: a yard of dollars is $1bn.
The early yard was divided by the binary method into two, four, eight, and sixteen parts called the half-yard, span, finger, and nail. Two yards are a fathom.
In currency and financial market usage, "yard" derives from "milliard", a now rarely used term for 1,000,000,000.


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In the province of undivided Bengal lies the sleepy, peaceful port of Chittagong. In this unassuming little town a revolution is about to begin; a revolution which will forever wake all of Chittagong and inspire the entire nation. Khelein Hum Jee Jaan Sey is a true story of these forgotten heroes and the narrative takes us through every step of the action from the initial trepidation, to the thrill of the attack, to the underground movement, daring escapes and tragic captures, and most importantly, their undying legacy.
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Opens: Dec 03, 2010 Limited


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Five key lessons from Google for the voluntary sector
6 Jul 2015
Last week Hugh Rajodev heard two experts from Google pass on their digital tips to the charity sector....
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Big Society Capital promised a lot, but what does it actually deliver? Gordon Hunter queries.
David Cameron officially launched Big Society Capital at the London Stock Exchange on 4 April 2012.
It's the culmination of six years of hot air leaked originally from the "Commission on Unclaimed Assets". At first we were told that the cobwebbed vaults held £2bn worth of dormant funds (bank accounts, insurance policies, pension funds). The Commission, in its July 2007 report, claimed £250m.
What we've actually got is £600m (one-third of it equity from the banks, the Merlin Agreement - abracadabra… Pooooof!).
The Lincolnshire Community Foundation urged the Commission to allocate its £250m to area pots, in permanent endowment, giving the interest to small charities. That way, Lincolnshire would have held £4m and generated about £200,000 every year in grants. Instead, Big Society Capital has emerged - yet another layer of staffing and offices, lending (not giving) wholesale to another layer of lenders (community development finance institutions like Triodos, Charity Bank and Big Issue Invest) who in turn lend to charities.
Obviously the money goes to big, mainstream charities, often with capital projects, delivering public services at lower cost. It doesn't go to the thousands of small, volunteer-led groups that form the safety net of civil society and that we, as a Foundation, are dedicated to nurturing.
What would some 16th century benefactor make of it? He's left £10,000 in his will to buy clogs for Lincolnshire workers. By the 20th century, the Trust is "frustrated": there's no-one to give the money to, there are no trustees still alive, the money sits, frozen, on the bank's bottom line.
Instead of unlocking that cash and making general grants, the money goes to Big Society Capital where, let's say, 20 per cent contributes to core costs. £8,000 is lent to a social financier. Fifty per cent (a figure derived from actual examples) goes to marketing the financier's product (say, a social investment bond) and another 20 per cent towards core costs. Finally £2,400 gets lent to MegaCharity Inc. Interest rates along the chain are 4 per cent to 6 per cent.
I'm not sure it's philanthropy as originally intended.
And the commercial banks own 40 per cent of Big Society Capital!
As Professor Paul Palmer, associate dean at the Cass Business School, said: "I don't remember the Good Samaritan saying 'I'll give you £100, but I want it back with 15 per cent interest in three years'."
This piece had previously incorrectly stated that banks were providing a commercial repayable loan to Big Society Capital. They are not. They are investing permanent equity.
Gordon Hunter
Lincolnshire Community Foundation
24 Apr 2012
Whoops: my achilles heal (the decimal point) is playing me up again!
Thanks for the correction, Gareth. It's definitely £600 (six hundred) million [£200 million plus interest to be repaid to the Merlin banks].
Incidentally does anyone else find these verification codes very difficult to read - or am I lacking in humanity?
Gareth Zahir-Bill
Investment Manager
23 Apr 2012
First quick comment, hoping you can re-edit this piece, BSC have a bit more than the £60m under management that paragraph three states.
Thank goodness they don't have any more than £600m (providing £2bn would have been pointless), getting the right dealflow for the institutions that BSC will provide capital to is going to be a pretty tall order. BSC is there to hopefully help prove that social finance intermediaries can be financially sustainable in the medium term, not provide cheap or free capital. There is scant evidence to prove that there are a mass of intermediaries that can be financiallly sustainable, lets hope the BSC team can start to provide this evidence.
James Murphy
Projects Manager
23 Apr 2012
Response to [Gareth Zahir-Bill]
Hey Gareth,
Forgive me, because I am genuinely interested in your comment and its lineage. I'm game for a spirited and frank exchange of views if you are?
Are you suggesting that BSC intentionally does not have the capacity to meet the necessary requirement? You will note that I did not use the word "demand" because that would be just silly of me wouldn't it?...kinda like describing the ocean as an "unsecured, transient, essencial asset"....to a fish.
Alternatively, are you suggesting that scope creep is to blame for the current incarnation of the BSC? (shudders)
May I humbly offer a prediction, read you the the "Tea Leaves" of BSC if you will.
It's scope will diminish year on year in line with it's failure to deliver progressive change. Why? Because trying to effect the privatisation of social necessity is a little like placing toddlers in a sweet shop and telling them,
"make sure you only take one sweet children. We dont want to spoil our dinner now do we!"
Once your back is turned they will be cramming down the Strawberry Creams and hiding the Turkish Delight down the back of the sofa. Eventually there will be a short but rowdy conversation with "Merv" on the big white telephone.
3 years....max. If im wrong I promise I'll buy you a 20% of a pint :)
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6 Jul 2015
Last week Hugh Rajodev heard two experts from Google pass on their digital tips to the charity sector....
3 Jul 2015
Both Scope and Terrence Higgins Trust have produced eye-catching videos to highlight their current campaigns...
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This week a social media call-out leads to an unexpected windfall for St Gemma's Hospice, Plan UK launch...
22 Jun 2015
Gillian Guy, chief executive of Citizens Advice, explains why charities need to respond to changes in...
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Our weekly round-up of interesting and outlandish information, collected from the corners of the charity...
10 Jun 2015
The charity sector has suffered in silence through repeated attacks on its leaders over their pay, but...
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