text:
- Joanne Donovan
- Auckland
- New Zealand
This conversation is closed.
Are the western vegetarian and vegan movements food fetishes for the rich?
'LET THEM EAT CAKE'. These words, attributed to Marie Antoinette just prior to her execution, enraged the struggling masses during the French Revolution. To people who had few daily food choices, most subsisted on low grade bread and little else, these words seemed so callous, and so bereft of compassion.
Why do we, in today's wealthy western countries, place such a high degree of importance over our individual diet? Is it just selfishness and ego born out of having too many choices each day? Do we claim self esteem and identity this way? Are we detached from the real meaning of food and nutrition, of survival?
Apr 22 2012: No. It is meat that is the fetish of the rich. Meat is a small part of the diet among the poor because feeding animals is an inefficient way of getting nutrients to humans. Much of the energy is used up by the animal before it is slaughtered rather than passed on to those who feed upon the animals.
So, even if you are not a pure vegatarian, every time you replace meat with beans or other high protien plant matter, you are reducing your part of our agricultural foot print on the planet, leaving room and nutrients for other sentient beings (animals and people) and for future generations.
Apr 23 2012: Good point. Meat IS a food fetish for the rich, and one that is extremely damaging to the environment. Agreed. Is beging vegetarian the answer? In my opinion, no.
The solutions lie somewhere else. The answer to me lies in establishing permaculture, holistic principles in farming and limiting the size of all food production, to move away from an industrial scale. There are other important factors to consider to do with the way food is transported globally and how we exploit our fellow man, who does not happen to reside beneath our own flag pole. Its a holistic approach.
Apr 23 2012: I guess I am confused. I would think that weaning ourselves from high consumption of meat is a very important step toward establishing a permanently sustainable agriculture if that is what you mean by "permaculture". Working toward establishing a permanently sustainable agriculture, better health, and preventing the cruelty to animals on factory farms seems to be the three main arguments for becoming more vegetarian.
As to whether small scale will get you permaculture when there are going to be 9 billion people on this planet, I doubt it. Small scale would work with small populations. Are you planning on famine, war, etc. to get us there? I hope we could find a sustainable agriculture solution that does not involve mass death and the end of civilization.
Apr 23 2012: @Inthegarden beyond the cave: Weaning ourselves off high consumption of meat does not mean vegetarianism. It might also mean eating less meat. Or even little meat. I do not think one can apply ones dietry values to other people. Do you? If you do, then I take issue with that.
Are you really trying to be credible here? 'Small scale would work with small populations. Are you planning on famine, war, etc. to get us there? I hope we could find a sustainable agriculture solution that does not involve mass death and the end of civilization.' You seem to be saying that the possible way we can feed 9 billion (we are not currently feeding 7 billion, may I remind you) is through industrial scale farming AND vegetarianism? Is this really your standpoint or would you like to qualify this before I reply?Apr 23 2012: In Australia we farm cattle in semi-arid areas that are unsiutable for crop farming. Cattle convert the dry grass that we can't eat into meat that we can eat. Dry countries like Australia wouldn't be able to feed their population without meat.Apr 24 2012: Peter, I was intrigued by your description of Australian cattle farming so I did a little research. While it is true that Australian cattle farming is unique in that it is the last region to make the change from range fed cattle to breeder operations that sell calfs to feedlots, that transition is now well underway in Australia. Basically, the way it is going to work is that the pasture land will be used to keep cows who will be used as breeders. The weaned calfs will then be sold to feedlot opperations that will feed them with grain or corn until they reach slaughtering weight. The beef you eat on your table will be grain fed steers for the most part. Much of the nutrients present in the grain the steers eat will never make it to your table. The feed lots waste grain producing land that could have been used to feed peple or animals living more fulfilling, natural lives. Vegetarians avoid encouraging that waste of farm land.
Apr 25 2012: I think to a large extent the grain fed beef is intended for export. The Australian palate leans toward lower fat levels than you get from grain fed beasts. The process for the local market starts with the breed stock you mention but the weaners are sent to holding properties until they are large enough to fatten up back on the coast. If you grain fed them the whole time the meat would be too expensive for domestic use. The Japanese however are prepared to spend a fortune on well marbled beef. In Australia we are used to cheep meat, anything over $20 per kilogram is a tough sell. Grain fed beef is more like $50 per kilo so will never be a big seller domestically.( $20AUS per kilo is about $10US per pound)Apr 24 2012: Joanne, How are you going to get people to support permaculture if people do not buy in to dietary values that are compatible with the foods produced by the permaculture?
You do not seem to be thinking about the ways that different elements of food production and consumption systems effect each other.
You cannot have small scale production unless you have small numbers of people consuming food. If you have large numbers of food consumers, you are going to have to have large scale production .
If you want us to move toward a permaculture that will feed large numbers of people, you have to accept that you cannot just do anything you want. You have to get rational. You have to do what is necessary to acheive your purpose.
Those who are vegetarians for ethical reasons understand that their purchasing decisions effect the way food is produced. If you want permaculture, vegetarians are your allies, not your enemy. The current level of consumption of meat is not sustainable.
Apr 25 2012: Hi Inthegardentbeyondthecave; permaculture is a set of principles, nothing more. Scale is an issue though, as monocultural agricultural methods are very productive in one area, but extremely destructive. It is possible to design a system using permaculture principles, that is both productive and ecologically sustainable.
The issue of population growth is a separate one.
Warren Bowen
Apr 22 2012: "Fetish" comes from the Portuguese for "charm" or "sorcery". It is generally taken to mean an abnormal and irrational obsession with an inanimate object, sometimes accompanying a belief in magical powers or spiritual possession; sexual attraction can also be a part of the definition.
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Do you mean "fad"? I've never heard of vegan diets as a fetish under any conventional definition. If you mean fetish, can you please elaborate? Sometimes the ways people talk about meat, the (sometimes sexual) way it's advertised, and the "special powers" you get from meat (you can only be strong and healthful eating meat) that individuals and industry profess, seem to fit the definition of a fetish. I've never seen plant food spoken of and represented this way.
If you're vegan because you don't want to give money to factory farmed meat, dairy, and egg suppliers (supermarkets, restaurants, etc.) because of the environmental destruction and animal torture they cause, it's a challenge to see how this is born out of selfishness and ego.
Joanne and I have already touched on this debate in Jonathan Foley's talk, but I couldn't help but respond to such an inflammatory conversation heading :)
Apr 23 2012: Hi Warren, please don't be upset but I think 'abnormal and irrational obsession' fits for many people. As does 'fad'. I think if you find my opinion 'inflammatory' you might want to ask yourself 'why'. Perhaps you will then have an answer to my question.
You are preaching to the converted when it comes to the meat industry. Its often disgusting, usually rampantly exploitative and sometimes even tragic. This is not the subject I have put up for debate.
When you say this ' you don't want to give money to factory farmed meat, dairy, and egg suppliers (supermarkets, restaurants, etc.) because of the environmental destruction and animal torture they cause, it's a challenge to see how this is born out of selfishness and ego', I can see you wish to make the 'individual protest' point. I think this is a valid point of view and I applaud you for it. Who do you give your money to instead?
Thanks for your heartfelt contributions.
Apr 23 2012: Another thing is that there are farm subsidies that go into certain crops that are used as animal feed, and sometimes to raising meat itself. In order words, meat eaters are stealing money from vegitarians as taxes, and by reducing the price you increase quantity demanded. Vote Ron Paul...
Apr 23 2012: Alexis, vote Ron Paul at your peril. Thanks for your comment
Warren Bowen
Apr 24 2012: Joanne,
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I agree that many vegans are so because of irrational reasons. However, your question wasn't "are some veggie movements fetishes but the rich?" but "are the veggie movements fetishes..." You've implied all are, when clearly this is untrue. And inflammatory because you are inaccurately generalizing an entire movement.
Glad to see you acknowledged that many nonvegan diets are actually fetishized, especially meat. Also, vegan and vegetarian diets are not fads; they've existed formally declared in western culture since the late 1800s, are recognized and advised by registered dieticians worldwide (which paleo, raw, Atkins, etc. diets are not), and have existed for thousands of years in other parts of the world.
"[Nonvegan industries are] often disgusting, usually rampantly exploitative and sometimes even tragic. This is not the subject I have put up for debate." It actually is the subject up for debate, because you've clearly implied in your question that veggie movements are irrational fetishes. What is the alternative to vegan? Nonvegan, meaning meat, eggs, and dairy. This is why I brought these industries up, this is why it is relevant to do so.
I give my money to growers of Canadian organic soy, organic dried beans, organic hemp, and nut butters for protein. Please tell me if there is something worrying about these industries so I can adjust my dollar voting. Who do you give your money to?
My diet is not a fetish because I have rational reasons for choosing it, many of which you are acknowledging, and it is not based in spirits, charms, sexual urges, or magical powers. Do you still think all vegan diets are fetishes? If so, please explain clearly.
Apr 24 2012: You realise the term organic is completely meaningless. From a scientific point of view. If you take an aspirin or chew willow bark your body can't tell the difference. Organic is the biggest fetish of them all. You can add evil chemicals like ammonium nitrate or you can use chicken poo the plants can't tell the difference.
Ken brown
Apr 24 2012: I think vegans should be lobed in with athiests.
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Each has their own personal reasons individually,not as a group.Apr 23 2012: In reality there is no clear distinction between plants and animals. You are lamenting the torturous methods of meat farming but don't mention the fact that most consumption of plants involves eating the unborn offspring of another organism. Is it more of a crime to eat veal or to cut the reproductive organ from a whole field of corn plants? If you are more concerned about the veal I would guess that it is becuase you are genetically closer to it. That seems to be how this whole vegetarian thing works.
Apr 23 2012: Peter, I was wondering if someone would present this standpoint so thank you! I always wonder at the dominating moral heirarchy with which we view the animal world. If we were a great deal smaller, we might value a preying mantis with the same devotion as a white tiger. Its to do with proximity, and is the same process we use to have empathy for our fellow humans. If we could hear a stalk of corn's scream as it is harvested, would we mind eating corn? I think the same law of proximity govern the amount of empathy we can have for our fellow humans. For example, if the crew of the Enola Gay had eaten breakfast with a Japanese family, on the day of the Hiroshima bombing, would they have opened the hatch and dropped the bomb? Promximity is too often the way we decide to care for something or not. Its not logical or reasonable.
Apr 23 2012: Hi Joanne and Peter
While I agree with both of your concerns about the moral hierarchies of animals, I think there is something we have to keep in mind.
To understand that all the biotic communities are equally significant and to understand that the biosphere is essentially holistic as opposed to hierarchical I think takes a higher level of awareness.
The reason why this is the case is because, as humans, we have a natural tendency to be concerned about those organisms that have a higher range of suffering and pleasure; a higher range of experience and interest as opposed to those who don't:
I don't think its by accident that people would be concerned about the slaughter of a chicken as opposed to, as Peter puts it, "cut the reproductive organ from a whole field of corn plants? "..the reason for this is because we tend not to think that plants suffer and therefore we see nothing wrong with doing such a thing.
In spite of this, the question remains, is any of this justifiable? perhaps not being that we have the capacity to understand that every part of the biosphere serves a purpose in regards to the worlds eco-system..
nonetheless, I do have to agree that this line of thinking is what gives way to the whole issue of moral hierarchies.
which I am sure you, Peter and Natasha are well aware ofApr 24 2012: Hi Orlando. Your comment is precisely the reason why even though I am a small v vegetarian I don't claim to do it for moral reasons. I eat very little meat purely because I feel healthier if I limit the amount of meat I eat.
Warren Bowen
Apr 26 2012: Joanne,
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I agree we don't know with 100% certainty if plants can feel pain. Or most invertebrates for that matter. But given what we know about experience, there is no reason to think it.
It is a terrible error in reason and judgment to argue that because we don't have complete certainty in "plant consciousness" that therefore we may kill or use any living thing we like. We don't have complete certainty in gravity or evolution—you don't even have complete certainty that humans other than you are conscious—yet all the evidence we currently have points to these explanations of the natural world. Any other way of thinking disregards the evidence we have of how the natural world functions. It is unreasonable.
It wasn't until the 80s that the governing body of US veterinarians declared that nonhuman animals could feel pain. Prior to that, they were engaging in nothing else but an assault on reason and evidence. There has been lots of evidence throughout human history that many nonhuman animals are conscious, sensitive beings. Not so with plants. There is no evidence for it, only convenient speculation when challenged to abstain from killing and hurting those sensitive nonhumans.
And if plants could feel? If all the evidence is wrong, and the lack of it sprung up? Eating meat, eggs, and dairy uses more plants that a strictly plant-based diet, anyway.Apr 23 2012: What reality do you inhabit, Peter ?
In Meta-Reality there is no clear distinction between 'dust' and 'man'.
So what ?
Apr 23 2012: Please classify these as plant or animal. Euglena, Trachelomonus, Diatoms. What about a sponge that derives 80% of its oxygen and nutrition from algal cells within its body. The one thing that most identifies plants is the presence of chloroplasts, but these probably started as cyano-bacteria that were engulfed by early single celled organisms. Essentially plants are animals that took cyano-bacteria hostage much as sponges, corals and giant clams now take algae hostage. If you look at the development of life on earth the seperation into plants animals and fungi is very recent, thats why we still share the majority of basic cell structure. Male plants make sperm and females make ova just like people.Apr 24 2012: Peter,
This argument is so disingenuous. Reflect honestly for one moment, without thinking of "debating vegans" and ask yourself if you truly believe plants feel pain, if you have no preference for seeing a head of lettuce go into a blender or a mouse go into a blender.
There is zero evidence for plants feeling pain.
1) No brain.
2) No centrally organized nervous system.
3) No nociceptor cells.
4) No evolutionary function.
Can plants react to stimuli? Definitely. So can my thermostat. Reaction does not mean feeling or experiencing psychological, conscious phenomena like pain and pleasure. Human bodies in comas react to pathogens constantly. Do these people feel anything?
People call veganism irrational, and yet this kind of arrogant sophism gets a platform. Comparing the suffering of young calves confined in crates barely wide enough for their bodies, deprived of iron such that they lick rusted nails, separated from their mothers in a hostile environment where some have their heads caved in by the heels of brutalized workers... to corn in a field?
Is it any wonder people genuinely concern with animal suffering and environmental destruction get angry?
Apr 24 2012: You realise your four points of identification also apply to half the animals in the world. In fact the vast majority of animals don't have a brain or central nervous system. You seem to be limiting your definition of animal to chordates, a very small fraction. And no I don't know if plants feel pain, but I also don't know if jellyfish feel pain or snails or ants as they don't have the part of the mammalian brain that perceives pain.Apr 24 2012: Warren, no one is saying, well I am not saying your concerns for animal welfare are not valid, of course they are and I too am concerned about such things. I think Peter makes a great argument about the broad spectrum of animal and plant life that is trampled beneath our jack boot.
Only a generation ago people said farm animals felt no pain, or mourned or felt emotion. Most people today do not accept this. Whales where not considered to have a family life, or a language or even much intelligence until relatively recently. The point is, we do not know, and we are notoriously arrogant and anthropocentric.Apr 25 2012: Peter,
True. Those points do apply to most animals on earth, since most animals on earth are invertebrates. I have little to no reason to think most invertebrates (like arthropods and molluscs) experience pain or pleasure. Given this, I happen to think insect and oyster farming would be a great humane food source (with likely little environmental impact).
I don't think "vegan" should be "don't eat animals or their by-products", but rather "don't do things that hurt sensitive beings".
Also, respond to my comments of your comparison of veal and corn suffering. You don't get off that easy for making such callous, empty arguments.
Apr 26 2012: Your question about the blender isn't a fair one as I assume you are taking about a live mouse. If the mouse is already dead like the lettuce I dont have a problem with either. To put you at ease though I would feel uncomfortable about blending a live mouse, but I also feel uncomfortable if I pick fruit. I feel like I am stealing something another organism has gone to a lot of trouble to create. Its not that I don't feel guilty for taking the life of an animal so I can eat it, I just feel equally guilty for taking the life of any organism. The problem is in order to eat you have to kill something.
Terry Harman
Apr 22 2012: Well I think that in the modern western world people place such a high degree of importance over individual diet because there has been an increasing awareness over time regarding health issues. I'm sure selfishness and self esteem do creep into modern 'healthy eating' and I'm also sure that quite a lot of people if not the vast majority of people are detached from the real meaning of food and nutrition as you state.
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Onto to vegetarian and vegan diets. While there are people that adopt those diets for health reasons and there are bound to be people that stop eating meat to follow some sort of fashion, the majority of people who adopt vegetarian/vegan diets do so for ethical reasons of one form or another. Seeing as you mentioned western society in particular, the origins of vegetarianism stretches back to ancient Greece, particularly Pythagorus. During classical antiquity the vegetarian diet was called 'abstinence from beings with a soul'. Make of that what you will. So clearly the roots of western vegetarianism are based on ethical deiscions rather than simply following of a fad.
Vegetarianism fell out of favour after the christianisation of Europe, maybe because it was seen as some unwholesome hangover from ancient Greek paganism, just like the banning of the original Olympic games. Though there is very little evidence about how widespread it actually was prior to the Christianisation of the late Roman Empire.
It resurfaced again in the renassiance, interestingly enough with the re-birth of interest in all things ancient. At that time it might be fair to say it was a fad or a fashion but in Victorian times it was popularised by Christian groups as a form of temperance. Moving on to the 20th century and after, it is more closely linked with animal welfare/rights issues and lately environmental concerns than fashion, especially with the explosion in meat availability due largely to factory farming.Apr 22 2012: Wow Joanne, excellent point and one I think about daily, although I never thought I had a great argument for it....
I would have to say that the answer to your question is yes. I think it is fetishes for the rich.
I've noticed this when I go to the store. I realized that all the places that sell healthy, green food, such as a place like Fresh and Easy (I'm not sure if they have this store in N.Z), is very expensive, while places like Walmart sells stuff for really cheap (but not as healthy). I myself never really understood why the healthy food in the U.S. is twice as expensive and not as abundant, as the unhealthy food? Then again, this is the U.S. and this is capitalism so I shouldn't expect anything less.
Also Joanne, think about the health care system. Those at the higher levels of the social ladder, have better access to medical care than those who cannot afford it. I do not think its a coincidence that poor people have less opportunity for getting health insurance and having more access to Junk/unhealthy food.
If you ask me, the reason why there is a focus on diet is because people are aware of their food intake and realize the health risk (obesity, calories, diabetes, etc). Upon typing all this to you, a thought just stuck my mind:
Don't you think its a major issue that countries would talk about the health risk people should look out for but nonetheless is unwilling to do anything to change this....
If the government wants people to be healthy, shouldn't they think about investing in maximizing the well-being of as many people as they can and focus less on corporate interest?
In a nutshell:
lower class+little or no health insurance+bad health +debt= pharmaceuticals company making profits and Power Maintained by the few.
Apr 22 2012: Hi Orlando, I think you highlight two aspects of an interesting point; that special diets ARE a luxury item often denied to the many in favour of the few, and that food is an essential aspect of the politics of poverty. Thanks.
This is good too; 'lower class+little or no health insurance+bad health +debt= pharmaceuticals company making profits and Power Maintained by the few.'. . in fact, we can see obesity, depressive illness associateced with inertia and obesity, smoking related diseases, obesity related diseases are extremely profitable to the pharmeceutical companies hence the lack of impetus to facilitate access to health. Control over this un-wellness process is exerted in subtle but ever powerful ways. Access to good food at school, advertising, laws around food controls. Education factors into this, and so again introduces a politcal element into my question; people who are more educated are more likely to see through the advertising propaganda designed to lure them into a pattern of unhealthy food choices, and avoid it. Health for the elite once again.
Everything always boils down to one thing. Equality. With it everything works out fine, without it, the human bus ends up with big square lumpy wheels and we all get a rough ride.
Have you read The Turning Point by Fritzjop Capra? It has a great chapter on our modern medical system and how it facilitates un-wellness.
Apr 22 2012: Hi Joanne and no problem and great post.
I never thought about the educational aspect of food. I like the connection you made with that as well so I find it very interesting that you mentioned that. But your right, many children across the world are not getting good meals at school, which of course only contributes to the problem.
no I have never heard of that book or author so I'll have to go check that out. thanks for the reference.Apr 22 2012: Joanne !
Everything always boils down to one thing. Equality.
I think ' equality 'has little to do with the choice in question. The 'ability to do without 'is not a virtue any more, and it is the core of the problem. The economy we've created pushes us to buy stuff. The direct or hidden massage of almost every commercial is -'you deserve it ! ' My God , I think I deserve much more and can be just fine without this stuff.
I am vegetarian and no 'isms' or even big conscious decisions on how to save the planet are involved. It has nothing to do with diet. Simply. I think it's a right thing to do.
Animals are cute loving creatures and my neighbours on this planet; they are not my food.
I can do without meat, and have plenty of affordable options. There are so many interesting things to do in this life to occupy our mind that much with what we eat :)
Apr 23 2012: Hi Natasha, thanks for your input. My comment regarding equality, was really in reference to Orlando's contribution.
Do you recognise that the mere fact you are able to make such a noble choice, to be vegetrarian, is an extremely privileged position to be in? One not shared by the majority of people on the planet? Do you see that the fact that you are in a position to make such choices is the result of our highly industrialised societies with an exhaustive range of consumer choices. It is this affluence and the productive waste attached to it, that is the problem in the first place. In this context, where is the nobility of being vegetarian? Because animals are 'cuddly' and 'our friends'?
What about less cuddly animals that are on the endangered list because of soya production? What about insect biodiversty and loss of habitat? These things affect animal life too, perhaps more so than hunting, or some kinds of farming.
I am not trying to belittle your choices, only bring some perspective. When we do something because it allows us to think we are better than other people, its called 'religion'.Apr 23 2012: You can't belittle my choice, for i don't define it as a great or noble one or something that can be written with a capital letter. It's simply a common sense with a healthy potion of 'devine reverence ' ( I don't practice any religion, don't take me wrong :)
I live in Ukraine, is it an extremely privileged place to be ? Maybe you are right, my government is in hard labour 24/7 to make me a philosopher, eventually it is not that bad:) My consumer choices : cabbage, potato...milk, cheese ..came into being long before the industrial age so I hope i don't contribute to much to the productive waste.
Do you really think that people who cut rain forests and plant soya there, care about vegetarians ? It's all about money. I agree with you, what they do with biodiversity and wild life is really awful, they cut the branch of the tree we are all sitting on. Let's skip the moral issue, what they do is not reasonable, again lack of common sense. As somebody aptly said : common sense is not that common.
But still it's only the surface... there are a lot of meaningful layers that can deepen this issue, but it's a long talk for the frame of the current conversation.
OK, Joanne, thank you for responding !
Have a nice day !
Apr 23 2012: Hi Natasha, I do not think you belong to the group I am critical of in my debate. I think we, including myself in extremely wealthy countries need to look at our overall attitude to food and over consumption, and we cannot expect to avoid or lessen that by being vegetarian.
Your choices seem brave and thoughtful to me, and I agree with you, its still only on the surface. Thanks for contributing.Apr 26 2012: Is there any point being vegan for the "good of the earth" if you live in a city?
Jeff Rust
Apr 22 2012: I did not read everyone's comments but, here is my 2 cents worth.
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I believe that a veg diet (vegetarian or vegan) is better for the planets health issues and for the peoples current health issues.
I agree that a veg diet in the US and even in China where I live now is becoming less realistic for poorer individuals "in cities".
If you add the complexity of saying Organic Veg then it changes the game completely.
If you add Rural farms it also changes.
From my perspective the reason the price of a veg diet is going up has to do with the privatization of agriculture/food over the last 50-70 years.
The simplest explanation is that capitalism creates inequity due the fact that economy is created by scarcity.
Is there economic growth in the industry of water if the government makes water public ?
No, the price is stable or goes down.
If everything is privatized then the price will go up due to scarcity.
If food, housing, clothing, education and other basic needs on Maslows hierarchy were all met by government then what would happen to private businesses?
Apr 23 2012: Hi Jeff, 'the reason the price of a veg diet is going up has to do with the privatization of agriculture/food over the last 50-70 years.'. And therein lies the rub. I think this is the real problem, and we need to address it.Apr 22 2012: I would strongly disagree. As far as I know a vegetarian diet (vegan, I think, is going a bit too far) is a lot healthier than a diet containing meat. I reduces the risk of getting many cancers and cardiovascular diseases. If this is the case, It is not a food fetish for the rich, it is the choice of the smart. It can also be really inexpensive.
From the global perspective it may also ba a smart choice as a leading diet for the mankind. Meat production requires enormous amounts of water and energy (which in turns leads to higher carbon emissions) comparing to production of vegetables or dairy products. Meat storage and transport requires refrigeration - further energy intake.
Apparently, if most of population was vegetarian there would be no hunger on this planet.
Ian Ker
Apr 21 2012: Human settlements started where there was good land and water for producing food. When these settlements grew, they started to consume this good land/water. So our towns, cities and suburbs occupy the best food-producing land and do so by covering much of it in bitumen and concrete. We can't turn the clock back, but we can do two things. First, stop the continued growth of urban sprawl (yes, I know that's not easy - the extra 3 billion people need to live somewhere) and use currently unproductive land (literally our own backyards very often) to grow some of our own food.
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As to whether vegetarian and vegan movements are food fetishes for the rich - does it really matter. If vegetarian/vegan diet places less stress on land, water and the environment, what does it matter whether those who choose them are rich or not? In fact, it might even be better that way - if these 'rich' people were carnivores, they might well be buying the 'best' meat (eg corn-fed rather than pasture-fed), which has the highest energy/land/water/greenhouse impacts.
Apr 21 2012: I would say no and disagree with your supposition. I see the 'vegan' and 'vegetarian' movements as outgrowths of a general protest against the 'machine' of the industrial revolution. Along with unions, human rights, environmental concerns, civil rights, and modern art, these food choice 'movements' are borne from the neglect and crap that has been 'fed' (sic) to people by conglomerate special interests seeking control of our quality of life and availability of choice for over a hundred years. People basically said 'we're not gonna take it anymore' and created these types of viable food products and created the market which has exploded in breadth and options. This is freedom and individual self-destiny expressed and demanded and has been game-changing. Thank goodness.
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Apr 21 2012: RH you represent a valid perspective, in my opinion and I have to give this idea some serious thought.
Vegetarianims/veganism as a protest movement against the establishment, against the status quo? I guess it depends on the individual. If as Douglas points out, someone decides for such a diet, pats themselves on th eback for healing the planet and continues to overconsume then what is it other than an empty gesture?
Apr 21 2012: Thank you for responding and considering the point of view. I will go a step further and say we're talking about two different things. One is a consumption choice, or 'movement', in society; and the other is an individual's personal character or lack therof. And also, not to be critical, but let's be very careful how we judge each other. Life can be very difficult, and it can be difficult to be 'pure' and still survive and live day to day. Sometimes all we can do is make little steps, and we have to choose what those steps will be. But again, these comments are strictly conversational. I'm not trying to criticize anyone's view.
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Apr 21 2012: RH
You're a brilliant written orator,i like reading your comments,they are free flowing and thoughtful,it takes me ages to tap out what i want to say but naturals like yourself and Joanne and millions worldwide should not worry about clashing,sometimes the clash can bring so much knowledge to the front and others can learn from it.Apr 21 2012: RH, I find myself almost loathe to criticise a movement which is clearly a subset to the movement I feel I belong to, one that cares for the earth, one that seeks to join with others to arrive at solutions, one that seeks to return to a better, more holistic relationship with community and nature.
And yet....some of the evangelism around diet seems so purely narcissisitic and so out of touch with how food is produced and how comunities around the world gain nutrition, it often seems more like part of the problem for the solution.
I spent one year living in India, and during that time, ate no meat. I learned a lot about diet, and about the way food culture evolves from necessity and what the local land can produce. These are good and valuable lessons which I have carried with me.
Yet the modern city based vegetarian and especially vegan movements, sometimes seem to have a social identity complex as the driving force behind them. They seem to represent a 'trend' rather than a thoughtful response to overconsumption. I find this 'ego' element particularily offensive, given the importance and sensitivity of food issues world wide. It is the rich picking around their plate again. In my view. AND I am at times vegetarian myself.
Your thoughts?
Apr 22 2012: (in response to 'loathe to criticize':) I understand what you're saying. I live in a big metro area and am aware - first hand - of 'modern city based' views and opinions. I would have to agree that many project an 'elitist' attitude about many things. This is why I say we're talking about two different things, and this is where the 'personal character' part comes in. I would love to see a socio/cultural anthropologist's report or dissertation on 'trendiness' in major metro areas. What makes people 'grab' onto a trend and adapt it to their own lifestyle? How do people sieze a particular facet of a trend and re-interpret the whole trend? I think we could spend hours speculating on that. Possibly we're also beginning to generalize here a bit. I believe there are thousands, if not millions, of people in western society who have adapted vegetarianism as a wholistic view of the planet, not just a 'watch me be a vegan everybody!' mentality. Possibly we need to broaden our view. Thanks again for responding to my comments.
- 0
Apr 22 2012: Ultimately the question do we consider it a negative or positive trend? I consider it no different than having to have a pair of Nike trainers or a Gucci handbag. A designer diet. No impact or relationship to environmental pressure. I guess you disagree.Apr 21 2012: I think I see what you mean, so I will try to address your statement. Please correct me if I don't quite answer the question. (I'm tired and its 3:30am here).
Isms. In general I try not to categorize anything under the guise of an ism due to the dangers of over generalization. This is one of many things that I acknowledge my hypocrisy. However, I think vegetarianism in general isnt as much as an "ism" as such things as liberalism/conservatism. I know that these are not what in specific you are talking about, but I think there are minor differences between the two sets.
I don't know what I am trying to say here, so I will end that point. :) Sorry..
I think that by someone, myself included, removing themself from the issue at hand by saying, "I don't do it, so I am not the problem" is very unhelpful. This is reminicent of the proverb, "evil thrives when good men do nothing". I may have misquoted that, but you know what I mean.
By being a vegetarian/vegan and not working towards reducing the general over consumption and waste, we are equally liable as those who do. Not equally I guess, but not absolved of blame. In general, I think the question posed is very important to get people talking and discussing their availavle influence on the subject.
For example, I believe that society is learning that being apart of an organization, lets say PETA or Green Peace, and not contributing anything other than membership is unhelpful. In fact, I believe that being an "ism" or a member without contributing to overall society causes a negative impact.
The vast majority of fellow ACLU members and *aspiring* vegetarians are not active in any community other than membership. I myself should be more active and am slowly returning to my activity.
My saying we are helping and actually not, especially in issues such as overconsumption, we are a detrimental force.
I feel like I am not saying what I want to express. I will return here tomorrow. :)
Apr 21 2012: Well said Douglas.Apr 21 2012: IMHO the cafe's are starting to pickup on the vegan trend and some promote quite silly prices for something you can make at home if not better,considering i'm a carnivore we will have to move over to a heavier vegetable diet if it is found that a dairy industry is too damaging,which would also mean going back to having a garden in our backyards like we did in the 70's.
There's just one hitch that a few see,not all land is growing land and conversion leads to fertilizers and insecticide use which is the short path but there is an older path that is longer but yields are considerably better though i don't know much on the subject it's potential is amazing.
Apr 21 2012: Ken;...no such thing as a free lunch. Precisely. We cannot take a 'knee jerk' approach to this. Permaculture principles kept the chinese fed and in a stable sustainable environment for 10 000 years while civilisations rose and fell around them. We need to get with THAT program. (and convince the chinese not to abandon in favour of 52 kinds of ketchup and a mountain of plastic)
joy faber
Apr 21 2012: We have gotten ourselves into a catch 22 situation; We need to go back to growing our own food at home, many of us live in cities and in inaerable places, we work so many hours and commute so time is limited, insecticide and long life-herbicide use have made this tough too. We have lost the common knowledge about taking care of animals. And we have killed God and religion which have been social glue for so many generation holding families and value communities together. I don't know how long it will take but we have doomed ourselves. The question is; what kind of time capsule do we leave for the survivors?
- +1
Apr 21 2012: Yes
The cities,what to do about them?especially the the big pushed up mega-cities that the future will bring.How about greenhousing the tops of our apartment buildings or turning parts of central park NY into greenzones where food is grown via permaculture tech and sold throughout the city at extremely low prices?
Joy,in the place you live where can like minded people can use land that is city owned and not in use but is pollution free and close to you? Why not band together and start a neighborhood cabbage patch on the land and if the city says you can't, pull out the old protest signs and megaphones and start walking.
joy faber
Apr 23 2012: I live in the middle of the high short0grass plains in New Mexico. I am 7 miles from a town. I have 8 close neighbors each of whom are elderly and over and acre away (at least a city block). I rarely go to town to save gas. Farmers and ranchers own this place, they spray pesticides and herbicides all summer and many wells have gone dry, I believe because of farm irrigation. It seems to me that all the problems in the world are focused in places like this; illegal immigration,pollution, litter, apathy, corruption, social breakdown. I don't hold out any hope for a future for humans. I'm just waiting for the other shoe to fall.Apr 23 2012: Gee, that's sad,for the farmers.
- +1
Alot here will disagree with me but i put it down to teenage silliness,some say it's outgrowing a archaic idea that worked for a awhile,some don't even know god exists anymore, yet i still do because there are things that have been happening that are too similar in the broader sense that can't be explained away and those that are vehement in the books denial don't realize that their lifetime might not be the time it happens,all we can do is try to live as best as we can and keep reading the books.
Heck i don't even watch those church programs anymore,they feel false and rehearsed except for maybe a few.
Those poor farmers,they must be worried about the water?Apr 23 2012: Take heart Joy. Fight back, remain vocal on forums like this and pass on your knowledge and wisdom to the people who come after you. Humans might surprise you yet. We need to find our empathy for each other and the world around us again. People like you are part of the process. Go well.Apr 20 2012: It may be that a high degree of importance is placed on diet in the western world because there is so much food in the western world. People instinctually eat more when there is more food. Now fifty years of glut in our diet has caused the opposite of death by hunger. We must be more aware because our survival depends on it.
Apr 21 2012: ....and seem to get precious and choosey about it too Christopher. What do you make of dietry evangelism?Apr 20 2012: luckily the first part has nothing to with the actual question. luckily, because it is false. marie antoinette never said such a thing, especially not before her execution, thus she did not enrage people with it. the actual source of the saying is unknown, if not completely fabricated.
Apr 20 2012: Must of been the paparazzi's during the french revolution who concocted such a ruse or rupert murdoch's ancestors.Apr 20 2012: Krisztian, well you are sharp I will give you that. I was wondering if someone would pick up the fact that Marie Attoinette is not recorded as having said those words. Hence the word 'attributed'. Bravo.Apr 21 2012: LET THEM EAT CAKE..almost certainly completely fabricated. Part of the smear campaign to justify the use of the guillotine against her divinely protected royal neck. Still relevant though....please stick to the point.Apr 20 2012: Mother Nature loves you. Scratch her belly with your plows, grow your soja, but leave the beasts alone. Humans have done enough harm as it is.
It's modern religion. Have a chat with a vegetarian, you'll see it all simmers up to belief in the supernatural.
Apr 21 2012: Is it morally right to chuck a massive industrial plough over a field and murder god knows how much animal life? I agree with protecting animial life but does that begin and end with diet? Roads for example terminate a great deal of animal life, some of it endangered. And, I hate to say it, so do wind farms. The point is there is no such thing as a free lunch. We have to look at the big picture. (Nice to see you again Gerald, I hope your wife is well)
Apr 21 2012: no such thing as a free lunch
nice to see you too
Warren Bowen
Apr 22 2012: Gerald,
- +2
I'm vegan and materialist. There's nothing supernatural about my reasons to not give my money to factory farms and other industries that abuse animals and our environment.
Apr 22 2012: "abuse animals"?
And what does that mean?


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Daily Archives: January 13, 2015
CLE Seminar to Help Lawyers "Write Prose Like the Pros" – January 14, 2015
January 13, 2015 | Category: News | Topics: CLE SeminarJanuary 14, 2015 - Write Prose Like the Pros Produced by the CCBA's CLE Committee Featured Speakers: Alina Shell, Esq. Randy Fiedler, Esq. Assistant Federal Public Defenders Hone your persuasive writing with tactics used by some of the country's best lawyers. We pull advice from leading legal writing books and present them to you to... Read more

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Aldo won in damage as well as keeping the fight in whatever realm he wanted. IF you were to look at it in a manner of time value of who had control of the fight more often, Aldo won that category more.
Frankie the jumping jelly bean did not do enough to win. He only scored 2 out of 11 takedowns and the disparity in strikes was not in his favour at all.
2 bottles of wine, 4 shots of Jager and 2 beers.... it didn't cover up my disappointment of getting 0/5 picks on the main card right. Everyone made fun of me cuz I knew the most about for fighters and still got every pick wrong.
I woke up stoned today. I had to smoke extra last night to be able to deal with my two friends puking their guts out. Haha. Standing over a guy puking into a bucket doesn't really effect me much but the smell does. Weed smoke covers that up just fine.
Last edited by Sniggles; 02-04-2013 at 12:45 AM.
I stayed up late to watch the PPV, got like 2 hours of sleep, and had to go to work for my 2nd of 3 12 hour shifts. I also am always wrong about picking the fights, and my friends make fun of me because they know that I follow MMA way more closely than they do. I hope that makes you feel a little better.
Working on Sundays is lame. Man's gotta do what he's gotta do.
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swreader wrote:Some of this comes, I suspect, from the fact that the concept of the orc is not Terry's but Tolkien's. And we know that Tolkien's orcs were created as evil creatures. It seems possible to me that this is where the problem arises. Nutt's sense of self-worth has been so warped (by Terry, and as he has other characters react to him) that in spite of the fact that he is incredibly talented, brainy, physically as strong at least as the Vampires--he himself feels he has no value.
But Terry never explains why he has these feelings--which are only cured through his psychoanalysis.
Lots to say and develop on this even though I agree both wholly and fundamentally. Regrettably my head is still mostly busted for the next few days, so I'll just throw another thought into the mix on this angle so that people can consider the direction that Terry's treatment of Discworld as a whole at least in part (if not largely) rests on his own inspiration and juvenile respect and awe of the Tolkien milieu.
Terry has admitted himself that he's laid some of the basis for his own creations including most of the Ankh-Morpork side of things as being an amalgam of Neo-Classical (Machiavellian) Italy merging with the World of Men in Middle Earth (and Minas Tirith) 500 years on, on the verge of an Industrial Magical Revolution and with a far more keenly developed and distinct sense of humour. As a Tolkien student, I'm very aware of his shortcomings as a story-teller from a characterisation standpoint at least, but in his own world, which was highly influenced by Empire and pre-World War standards of 'decency', he nevertheless had an understanding of people being prey to the influences they were surrounded with and had to live 'under', simply to carry on existing. In the Appendices to the Lord of the Rings and Christopher Tolkien's endless exploration of the copious notes and essays left by Tolkien Snr there is at least the beginnings of the rehabilitation of the mostly 'swarthy' Men who sided with Sauron and their eventual alliance or merging with the civilisation that Aragorn revives in Gondor. So they are assimilated into the dominant society as equals rather than 'conquered' and always to remain subjugated, never wholly integrated into the folds of the victor. Which is basically what Terry's in the process of doing for the Orc in UU and now in Snuff under Lady Margalotta and Sybil's auspices
Will stop there and come back to the Orcs later as there are distinct differences in how they are treated in Middle Earth which comes down to religion essentially as they are in part 'created' as well as debased and in that essential have no similarities to Discworld Orcs in almost the same ways that Discworld Elves are not similar to Tolkiens...


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A procedural or interpretive rule may be amended by the agency prior to final adoption without further hearing or public comment. No such amendment may change the main purpose of the rule. If the fiscal implications have changed since the rule was proposed, a new fiscal note shall be attached to the notice of filing. Upon adoption of the rule (including any such amendment) the agency shall file the text of the adopted procedural or interpretive rule with its notice of adoption in the state register and the same shall be effective on the date specified in the rule or thirty days after such filing, whichever is later.
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Tag Archives: Cillis
Turning the Pages of Patriotism with the American Library Association
Written by staff on August 28, 2013 — 2 Comments
This post is written by Tammy Kiter, Manuscript Reference Librarian Thoughts of World War I do not necessarily conjure up images of soldiers reading for leisure. Rather, we tend to recall seeing photographs of brave young men engaged in trench warfare and scenes of the horrific aftermath of brutal battles. But through the efforts of […]


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Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 0
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Other Ingredients: In a base of Lactose N.F.
If you are pregnant or nursing, consult a licensed health care professional before using this product. If symptoms persist for 7 days or worsen, contact a licensed practitioner. To be used according to label indications and/or standard homeopathic indications


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(based on 12 reviews)
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Excellent product with roomy sections
By Annette
from San Juan, Puerto rico
About Me Budget Buyer
Comments about 6-section Pill Organizer:
Excellent product. Will buy some other as gifts.
Bottom Line Yes, I would recommend this to a friend
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By ladyfishx8
from Dallas
I never keep my meds in the bathroom. I got this to take on a trip and it worked well. Very easy to use. It is sturdy and I don't find any downfall.
(1 of 1 customers found this review helpful)
By KLMCats
from TX
Purchased 2. The "flap" is large enough for the container to store/dispense large oblong vitamin pills. Might be too heavy for travel, but between the 2 - all of my daily pills are convenient. No longer have to fuss with individual pill bottles, just open flap & dispense pills from each section - then close. Thus far appears sturdy.
By PATTICAT
from BOSTON, MA
I use this for my medication. I used to keep all my pill bottles in a drawer..they would roll around, be hard to find the right bottle. Drove me crazy. But now my pills are altogether in one great bottle. If you take a lot or even a few meds then this is for you.
Perfect storage saver room...
By Loisi
from Fleming Island, Fl
I use this to keep my teens pills in and teach him how to learn sorting his pills in the weekly pill box by having them all in one container. If he runs out in the weekly box he is still able to take out of the pill storage one at a time quicker than opening up 8 pill bottle in makes it quicker having 6 in one and only having to open 2. Its great to travel with also than taking all pill bottles.
Real space saver
By FoxxyBrown
from Houston, Texas
I take multiple meds and this container allows me to have them all in one space. I do have a small container that I have in my purse. But for overall storage, this beats having multiple bottles everywhere.
(0 of 3 customers found this review helpful)
By xstitch
from South Carolina
I thought this was the size of a pill bottle BUT it is huge and WAY TOO BIG to carry around. You need a large purse to carry it with you or your bag will look too bulky. I would not recommend buying this if you are looking for a compact pill organizer that fits all i no ne.
Bottom Line No, I would not recommend this to a friend
best buy ever
By jen wren
from canada
with the amount of meds our family uses, I bought 4 of these. I cannot tell you how pleased I am. It takes up less space, and is so convenient to use. Wish I had these years ago, it would have been so helpful
A Pickle for Pills
By Celliva
from South Bay, California
I returned the product. I don't like to do battle with lids!
Saves counter space
By Eva
from Fort Wayne IN
About Me Health Conscious, Regular User
This product has been a time and space saver for me. No more dozens of bottles sitting on the counter and I only need to refill this one time a week.


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Who would want to work for Uncle Jed in big D?
Originally written on Football Nation | Last updated 11/7/12
It's not as though an out-of-work NFL coach has pick of the litter when trying to acquire a new job. The challenges they face are a bit different than us "regular Joes," but it is still a competitive environment with plenty of qualified candidates. Exceptions do exist though. Bill Cowher could go to just about any NFL team with an open head coaching position and simply say "I'll take it" and the gig would be his. Guys like Jon Gruden and Bill Parcells may also possess this ability. Basically if you've coached a team to a Super Bowl win, you're on a different level. The other advantage for coaches like Cowher and Parcells is not only do they jump to the front of the line in the application process, they have the ability to force the termination of a current coach. Say the Cowboys lose all their remaining games, but Jerry Jones is hesitant to fire Garrett. Cowher calls up the Cowboys and says "I'm yours if you want me." Boom - Garrett is gone. It's a powerful thing, this game of...
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how big is the arm band?
My wrists are very large and I want this product, but I need to know if it will fit or not. How big is the arm band in length, ie. how big of a wrist will it fit.
- Asked by Cori D
iWatchz Q Series watchband for iPod nano
Product No Longer Available
2 Answers from the Community
Best Answer:
The band is 9.5 inches in length, I believe. But I'm not sure how far the last hole is from the end of the band. I suggest going to your nearest Apple Store or another electronics store, and asking to try one on. I hope you can find what you need. :)
- Answered by Ronald M from Wimberley
Ok if you have a realy small wrist of a realy big wrist because the band is awesome
- Answered by Lachlan R from Hampton


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|Keep Movin' 06/02
|Keep Movin' After School Fitness Program This after school program designed for students in grades 4 - 6 allows students to receive regular physical activity as a part of a child's foundation for a long, healthy life. Helping children adopt a healthy lifestyle early will have a tremendous impact on their physical, intellectual, emotional and social development. "Keep Movin' " is all about making fitness FUN, and offers children of varying levels of fitness and skill an alternative to sport-specific activities. SPORTS are not for everyone - but physical activity needs to be a regular part of a child's life. Bus service is available for Fairfield residents from Intermediate, Middle school and Sacred Heart to the Community Arts Center. Information packets are available at the front desk of the CAC and a deposit of $100.00 is required to reserve your child's place.
|R/NR Fee
|06/02 - 06/03
|Monday, Tuesday
|$50 / $55
|Location: Classroom (Community Arts Center)
|Instructor: CAC Staff
|Spring 2014


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St. Louis, MO (SportsNetwork.com) - The St. Louis Blues signed defenseman Chris Butler and forward Benn Ferriero to one-year, two-way contracts on Wednesday.
Butler, 27, played in all 82 games last season for the Calgary Flames, recording two goals and 14 assists.
The St. Louis native has totaled 10 goals and 65 assists over 349 career regular-season games in six seasons with Buffalo and Calgary.
Ferriero dressed in two games for the Vancouver Canucks last season, spending the majority of his playing time with Utica of the American Hockey League, where he tallied 19 goals and 10 assists in 54 games.
The 27-year-old, who was a national champion with Boston College in 2008, has racked up 14 goals and nine assists in 98 career NHL games across five seasons with the Sharks, Rangers and Canucks.


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Legal Scholars Discuss Slavery Reparations at the School of Law
Noted legal experts in reparations gathered at the Saint Louis University School of Law Wednesday, Jan. 26, during the panel "Understanding Reparations: Social Movement, Phantom Menace and Search for Just Recompense." Hosted by the Black Law Students' Association (BLSA), the event attracted students, academic scholars and community members.
The panel addressed the call for reparations among blacks of African descent and other supporters of reparations for the horrors suffered by those of African descent during the Trans-Atlantic Holocaust of enslavement, the period of Jim Crow "justice" and continuous discrimination leading up to today.
Adjoa Aiyetoro, associate professor of law at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock William H. Bowen School of Law and Saint Louis University School of Law alumna. Photo by Chad Willia
The event featured speakers: Adjoa Aiyetoro, associate professor of law at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock William H. Bowen School of Law and Saint Louis University School of Law alumna; Adrienne Davis, the William M. Van Cleve professor of law at Washington University School of Law; and Carlton Mark Waterhouse, associate professor of law at Indiana University School of Law-Indianapolis.
"This dialogue is important for understanding just recompense to our country's ex-slaves and how this fits the principles of the U.S. Constitution," said Bryan Weaver, president of the Saint Louis University School of Law BLSA chapter. "The discussion of reparations also fits well with the Jesuit mission of SLU in that it emphasizes justice, atonement and recompense for past wrongs committed against those who have been rendered powerless in many instances."
"We have to put this on the agenda," said Aiyetoro, who addressed the need for the community to carry on reparations activism. "We have to continue to teach the younger generation to make it a priority."
Aiyetoro referenced the national and international efforts of reparations activists including the work of the Women's International Association of Peace and Freedom and the World Conference Against Racism. She also recognized the United Nations designation of 2011 as the "International Year for People of African Descent."
The panelists emphasized that reparations activism is a social movement that must focus on how to best benefit future generations, and they addressed the need for a renewed public understanding of the history of slavery to fully account not only for the atrocities that occurred but to also recognize the vast contributions of blacks of African descent.
"The past is an intricate and essential part of how we deal with the future," said Waterhouse. "One of the first things we have to repair is our public memory."
Davis, who noted several historical and modern activists throughout the reparations movement, compelled the crowd to not solely focus on the work to be done but to also acknowledge the accomplishments already achieved through reparations activism.
The panel coincided with the 40th anniversary of the Saint Louis University School of Law BLSA chapter. Aiyetoro, one of the early pioneers of SLU BLSA, helped to establish the organization as a strong voice of advocacy among the school's black law student population.
SLU BLSA currently has 30 members who are focused on articulating and addressing the academic, financial, political, social and professional needs of its membership and promoting the interaction between the membership and other organizations within the law school and the University generally, and the legal community and black community specifically. To learn more, visit the BLSA website.


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Welcome to Carriage Way Bed & Breakfast
Just imagine strolling down the narrow streets of the "Oldest City" in the United States with its old-world charm. Then, imagine walking up to this beautiful 130-year-old Victorian home in the heart of St. Augustine's Historic District. The first thing that captures your eye of our St Augustine Bed & Breakfast is the two expansive verandas. The white wicker chairs and a porch swing call out to you to sit, relax, and reflect on your day! As you enter the front door, the friendly and hospitable atmosphere surrounds you, the smell of freshly-baked cookies teases your senses, and the warmth practically murmurs "This is the place to be."
The Jewel of the Ancient City
Carriage Way is a traditional, Victorian-style building constructed between 1883 and 1885 by Edward and Rosalie Masters for their family. Mr. Masters was a lead carpenter for multi-billionaire Henry Flagler and worked on many projects including the Ponce de Leon Hotel. For many years, the home was very prominent in the city of St Augustine. Then, in the 1940s, the house was converted into apartments. In 1984, this romantic structure was lovingly and extensively restored to its original grandeur, fulfilling a dream of creating what is now a premier bed and breakfast inn. Carriage Way is a definite jewel of this ancient city.
Located in the very center of history, our inn is located just steps from old St. George Street: home of the walking mall with unique and charming shops, museums, historic sites, and beautiful views. Flagler College (the original Ponce de Leon Resort Hotel), the 17th-century European fort Castillo de San Marcos, many fine restaurants, art galleries, carriage tours, and the waterfront are within four short blocks. All sites within the Historic District are only a 5- to 10-minute stroll from the inn. While so very close to the action, Carriage Way is quiet and peaceful in the evenings.
When traveling to St. Augustine, Carriage Way is the way to stay! We are proud to be a Donal A. Dermody White Glove Award winner for the past six years in a row. We have convenient and complimentary off-street parking on-site for all of our guests.
More Information
If you need information about any of our services, please feel free to use our contact form, e-mail us at firstname.lastname@example.com, or give us a call at (800) 908-9832 or (904) 829-2467.
Updates & Specials
- St. Augustine 450th Celebration
St. Augustine 450th birthday celebration! The nation's oldest city is celebrating in style with a 5-day citywide event! The celebration kicks off on Friday, September 4th at 3:00pm with FREE music and cultural performances on four downtown stages and national music acts on the main bayfront stage. Saturday, September 5th the party continues at […]
- Music By the Sea St. Augustine
Head over to the St. Augustine Pier every Wednesday from May 13th through October 14th for free live music by the sea from 6:00pm to 9:00pm! Each Wednesday, a different musical artist/band is featured along with a different restaurant serving food. Food service begins at 6:00pm and the music begins at 7:00pm.Dinner is optional but […]
Upcoming Events
Flagler College ToursMay 1, 2014 @ 10:00 pm - December 31, 2015 @ 2:00 pm
Blue Star Museums ProgramMay 25 @ 12:00 am - September 7 @ 12:00 am
Music by the Sea Concert Series Presents: Billy Buchanan & Free Avenue with dinner served by Black FlyJuly 8 @ 6:00 pm - 9:00 pm


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0161 248 8282
Be adventurers by day, live like kings by night.
Our self-guided cycling holidays aren't about clocking up the miles, they're about the time in between. Enjoy a leisurely cycling holiday in France, stop and explore, eat glorious meals, stay in delightful hotels (your luggage is carried for you) and indulge in the luxury of knowing everything has been taken care of.
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We normally travel the world. When we chose a Cycling for Softies holiday for our honeymoon, eyebrows were raised. It proved to be the perfect choice - everything we could wish for.Mr & Mrs Griffiths, United Kingdom


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We all know that vice-presidential debates don't matter, or at least that's what we knew until last night. This one, however, may turn out to matter quite a bit, even if it doesn't produce any major movement in the polls, for two reasons. The first is the obvious one: it has already made despondent Democrats feel a lot better. They wanted to see their guy aggressively take on the other side, and that's exactly what they got. Markos Moulitsas of DailyKos probably spoke for most Democrats when he wrote, "Tonight felt great, didn't it? ... we base liberals are happy again, which means we'll be productive bees because no matter what some of you claim, no one likes to work hard for the team that is 10 points down (or feels that way)."
Conservatives, on the other hand, are unanimous in their judgment that Biden was overbearing and mean. Last night on Fox, Brit Hume called him "a cranky old man." "Biden Bombed," reads the Fred Barnes piece on the Weekly Standard web site. "Classless Joe," says the National Review. They aren't completely wrong—Biden certainly interrupted Ryan more than was necessary, and could have dialed back the smiling and head-shaking a bit. But his unrelenting aggressiveness was just what Democrats wanted to see, and will no doubt spur President Obama to try to avoid looking somnolent by comparison.
The second reason the vice-presidential debate matters is that it sets the stage for the final two presidential debates in an important substantive way. To see why, let's look back at one of the things many observers found odd about the first Obama-Romney debate, that Obama never brought up the "47 percent" video. Many put it down to timidity on Obama's part, but my interpretation was that Obama may have calculated the following: We're already killing him with ads on this, and he's surely prepared a great response for when I bring it up, so let's not give him the chance to turn it to his advantage. But what we saw last night was that it turns out that the Romney campaign doesn't have a great response to the question. It's true that Ryan had a practiced zinger—"I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way"—but that's a response that sounds good for a minute but doesn't change how people think about the matter. The substance of Ryan's response, which was that Romney is "a good man" who gives a lot of money to charity, was met by Biden with exactly the right counter, which is that it doesn't matter whether Romney is a good man in his personal life if the policies he advocates aren't good for millions of people.
And this kind of thing happened again and again in the debate: Biden would attack Romney, and Ryan would offer a middling defense that amounted to little more than a repetition of the same things he and Romney say on the stump every day. A large part of debate preparation is practicing your responses for the attacks you know are going to come, and if the Romney campaign had fantastic answers to the criticisms about their tax plan, about Medicare, about Iran, or about any number of other issues, Ryan would have offered them. But he didn't.
So Barack Obama probably watched this debate and concluded that Mitt Romney doesn't have any more surprises up his sleeve. Obama has said that he was shocked in the first debate when Romney began unveiling his new moderate persona and didn't quite know how to react. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some truth to that. But now there isn't anywhere else for Romney to go. Biden hit Ryan with everything he had, and nothing Ryan said could make Obama the least bit uneasy about what Romney will do when they meet again on Tuesday night. So like his supporters, Obama probably came away from last night substantially more uplifted and confident than he was 24 hours ago, and that could be the real impact of the vice-presidential debate.
Fri, 2012-10-12 13:41
I think, strategically, it was good for the President to hold back on the "47%" remark, to avoid allowing Romney to give his "sincere" apology on the national stage, and then to respond to the weakness of the retraction (at least initially) through Biden. Nobody would have doubted that Romney would have a practiced, rehearsed response to that reference ready to go, and it would have been a reasonable campaign strategy not to lay the ground work for its presentation.
Another point of criticism leveled at the President is his suggestion that he and Romney had a similar strategy on Social Security - a few tweaks and, boom, fixed, done. I think that was intended as a trap - to try to get Romney to emphatically disagree, and perhaps even stumble down Ryan's path and start talking about privatization. That issue remains open for debates #2 and #3, but now there's an implicit contradiction. "When I said that the Governor and I agreed on how to fix Social Security, to keep it safe for our seniors for generations to come, the Governor smiled and nodded his head. But now Congressman Ryan says they want to privatize Social Security, again taking us back to the failed policies of the Bush Administration. It's difficult to debate an opponent who comes down firmly on both sides of every important issue."
Fri, 2012-10-12 17:38
The only specific I heard from Ryan was the one about how all people under age 55 will be kissing their lifetime social security contributions goodbye and be forced to do battle with for-profit insurance companies throughout their golden years. Are Americans really planning on voting against their own economic interests? These billionaire puppets are going to do this if you vote for them. Don't be foolish. STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC TICKETS PLEASE. Thank you.
Watch all of your favorite teapublicans morphing together in this 3-minute video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTIphPnDM8
The only specific I heard from Ryan was the one about how all people under age 55 will be kissing their lifetime social security contributions goodbye and be forced to do battle with for-profit insurance companies throughout their golden years. Are Americans really planning on voting against their own economic interests? These billionaire puppets are going to do this if you vote for them. Don't be foolish. STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC TICKETS PLEASE. Thank you.
Watch all of your favorite teapublicans morphing together in this 3-minute video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvTIphPnDM8
Sat, 2012-10-13 10:09
It appears that even among groups that think Biden "won" more voters switched to Romney:
Survey USA results:
Tampa/St. Pete… Ryan wins debate 42-38
Change vote? yes: 73% to Romney 27% to Obama!
In New York area, Biden wins debate 54-30
But vote switchers still went 54%-38% in favor of Romney…
CA Biden wins debate 48% to 41%
but vote switchers favor Romney 59% to 40%
Sat, 2012-10-13 11:21
The Dems can "take heart" all they want. No doubt the base loved Biden's hystrionics on stage.
But I assure you that to most of the undecided voters out there in the middle who will decide the election, Biden came across as a loud, arrogant, rude, condescending a-hole.
People very rarely enjoy voting for a-holes.
Moreover, I'm guessing that an awful lot of undecided voters out there were asking themselves on Friday morning "Gee, is that really someone I'd want sitting in the Oval Office making critical decisions if something happened to Barack Obama?" For most of them, the answer is probably "No".
Sun, 2012-10-14 13:43
The undecided middle, like the conservative right, LOVES loud, arrogant, rude, condescending a-holes. That's why they like Republicans. And why Democrats have been losing since the 1960s when they ditched the cigar-chomping, back-room aggressive politics and went all wimpy and smarmy and nice. Let's get more of that aggression, toughness, and machismo on the Democratic side--don't let the devil have all the good tunes. Ruthlessly trash them, beat the crap out of them, no holds barred. Tough wins!
Sat, 2012-10-13 13:16
Sat, 2012-10-13 13:30
I don't think the VP debate has much significance in the big picture. We don't vote for Vice President. No doubt, the base ate it up but I don't think anyone else was that impressed with Biden's overwrought performance and, like me, may even have been embarrassed for him. For as many people who were turned on by it, just as many and possibly more were turned off. I sort of agree with Greg Gutfeld's take on the debate: "Biden's the drunk at the bar; Martha is the unhappy bartender and Ryan is the unfortunate salesman caught in the middle."
I watched the debate and based on my work at McLean Psychiatric Hospital in Boston ( a Harvard teaching hospital) Biden's behavior, including the gestures as well as the almost manic efforts to interrupt Ryan WOULD REQUIRE A REVIEW OF MEDICATTIONS AND DOSAGES.
there is something deeply distrubing psychologically about this guy.
btw, went to great lenghts to state "he did NOT vote for the wars because he know we could not afford them." EXCEPT - HE DID VOTE FOR THEM
Sat, 2012-10-13 17:48
I see. So the sane thing to do is vote for a rich man with an overweening sense of entitlement but with no particular vision for the future of the country; and for his running-mate, whose only "plan" is to screw the middle-class. By the way, your position as lab assistant there at McLean probably doesn't lend as much gravitas to your pronouncements as you would like to think.
Sat, 2012-10-13 21:30
"vote for a rich man with an overweening sense of entitlement but with no particular vision for the future of the country; and for his running-mate, whose only "plan" is to screw the middle-class." Obama is already screwing the middle class. How would proposing to do that be any different from the current administration? Oh wait, I see, you are talking about the current administration! I think it is fun that libs love to accuse others of what they are already doing.
I watched the debate and based on my work at McLean Psychiatric Hospital in Boston ( a Harvard teaching hospital) Biden's behavior, including the gestures as well as the almost manic efforts to interrupt Ryan WOULD REQUIRE A REVIEW OF MEDICATTIONS AND DOSAGES.
there is something deeply distrubing psychologically about this guy.
btw, went to great lenghts to state "he did NOT vote for the wars because he know we could not afford them." EXCEPT - HE DID VOTE FOR THEM
David Green
Thu, 2012-12-13 13:43
They'll say whatever makes them sound good at the time a.k.a. lie in front of the whole country. I had a similar feeling about Ryan when I saw him debate Biden. Just looking at his gestures and facial expressions, it's freaky to imagine him being the vice president. I'm glad Republicans didn't win. - David @ http://www.injuryattorneysguide.com/
Sat, 2012-10-13 16:11
The Chimp versus the Professor.
Like in some old vaudeville act, the kids cheered for the audacious and disrespectful chimp. Hands down.
But this wasn't vaudeville. it was about who will be the leader of the country. and perhaps the most infulential leader in the world.
Sat, 2012-10-13 16:22
Sat, 2012-10-13 16:30
Sorry to burst your bubbles (okay, actually I enjoy doing it), but the CNN and other polls show Ryan was the clear winner. He helped his running mate more than Biden helped his. Biden is a bombastic, demagogue, and that makes "Democrats take heart"? What in the hell is the matter with you people?
Do you like high unemployment? High taxes? Soaring gas prices? Spiking food prices? Do enjoy misery? Or are you just plain nuts? I'd really like to know.
Sat, 2012-10-13 16:32
Lol, Democrats are happy about that performance?
Two days later and all that anyone is talking about is how weird and obnoxious Biden was as well as his apparent contradictions with the facts on abortion and Libya. Obama is down 5 points on Intrade since the debate began and polling shows no Biden bounce.
And why should it? He may have sucked in the OWS base with that hot mess but he lost the middle utterly.
Sat, 2012-10-13 16:55
what planet are you on, punter? biden's unhinged and bizarre behavior, rude, smarmy, a total turnoff, is now (after the dust and the spin of the feckless MSM settle) widely recognized as a mistake, detrimental, having the effect of legitimizing ryan, and in whole a substantive embarrassment. not unlike howard dean's famous moment, this debate features biden as half-cocked lunatic and rude interrupter. man, you are a serious hack to pen this screed given what we all saw.....
Phil Horton
Sat, 2012-10-13 17:20
Just exactly what are the democrats excited about? Given Biden's revelation of the breakdown in information sharing within the administration, it's apparent the democrats don't care that their wonderful president is either inept, totally detached as president, or involved in a conspiracy to hide the first two, or all three.
Anyway you slice it, the dems are breaking the rules of common decency by not putting forward a viable candidate, known to be honest.
Sat, 2012-10-13 21:34
Here is what I thought was really fun about this debate. Ryan had pelnty of chances to appeal to the moderator or to Biden to maintain some sense of decorum during the debate. I think he let it go on purpose. Vice presidential debates do not usually have any impact, but this one will. Biden will forever be remembered as the mean, rude bully. The Dem base may have liked it, but this was a disaster for the ticket.
Ernie Banks
Sat, 2012-10-13 22:42
Why do democrats have ANY standing to criticize Romney and Ryan over a lack of specifics in their plan? At least they have a plan. It may not be completely filled in, but is a plan.
The democrats have NO plan at all. Nada. Zip. No plan to rein in entitlement spending. No plan to balance the budget. No plan to stop the country's slide into bankruptcy. Even Tim Geithner, Obama's Treasury Secretary, concedes the point by saying "It's true - the Obama Administration is not offering a plan to address the budget deficit. But it is also true that we don't like yours" when testifying on Capitol Hill in front of Congress.
So if you don't like the Republican plan, offer one of your own!
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(If there's one thing we know about comment trolls, it's that they're lazy)


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Manchester Maccabi 1st vs Brady Maccabi A
By Danny Caro, March 25, 2013
Jonny Ellis steered Brady into the semi-finals of the Peter Morrison Trophy following a hard fought win over Manchester Maccabi at Brooklands. Here is the pick of the action. Photos: Chris Tofalos
Last updated: 9:15am, March 25 2013


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The Lewis & Clark Summer Institute (LCSI) is offering a $100 discount for children or grandchildren of SLU faculty, staff or students who enroll children (grades K-8) in LCSI's academic enrichment program on SLU's campus this summer.
LCSI is the summer enrichment component of the Lewis & Clark Institute. It has been offering fun and enriching learning experiences to children since 1983.
For three weeks (one session) or six weeks (two sessions) children can pursue interests in the arts, sciences, information technology, playing and working hard.
Classes include: animation, computer game design, fencing, stained glass, chemistry, physics, gardening, creative writing, woodworking, movie making, exploring St. Louis in the age of Lewis and Clark and a new class developed and taught by SLU faculty called "Aviation, Space, and Engineering."
For more information visit the Lewis & Clark website or call Dr. Patrick Dugan at 314-918-1400.


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I don't get 1K likes every day. But when I do get them, 1K == 1024
Thanks to all those people that have, for whatever reason, thought it appropriate at the time to click Like under some stuff I had posted.
Thanks to the rest of the cast and crew for keeping it all together, making The Big N a great, happy place... not always, sure, but sometimes.
...enough for me to visit every day and see what's up
And sorry for posting crap when I do so. For you who suffered, at the end of this post there will be a cake...
*raises a cup of... yogurt*