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5th Seal – Martyrdom and Sorrow
There will be a time of religious persecution for believers in Christ.
Are we ready to die?
Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
Timing Issue
There have been times when I thought all the saints and Israel would go through the one tribulation together, and then be rescued by Jesus as a group.
Then a time of wrath would follow, which was only for the wicked.
But, according to Revelation, there are 2 times of martyrdom, and only one is actually realized, or experienced, during the 5th seal.
The fifth seal indicates two times of martyrdom:
1. During the 5th seal itself, saints are killed.
2. A future time, when their brethren will be killed "as they were."
Also, there is a "little season" between the 2 martyrdom events
The 6th seal that follows is described in Revelation gives the time of
the first martyrdom in relation to time of the return of Jesus:
Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
This 6th seal event matches the return of Jesus in the clouds described in Matthew, and marks the end of the tribulation (seals 1-5):
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
So, if the first martyrdom precedes the return of Jesus, which is AFTER the tribulation (seals 1-5)……
Then, the second time of martyrdom follows it, which means there are still saints, or those who will become saints, on earth after the first tribulation.
2 Tribulations
This also means there are 2 "tribulation" periods with martyrdom in each:
1. the first Tribulation, and
2. what follows, which is the Great Tribulation, or time of Wrath, or Jacob's trouble.
Those that remain for the 2nd martyrdom are the untested Church,
and natural, unsaved Israel.
Second Tribulation
The second, or Great Tribulation does not start until God's servants are sealed.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
The second group of martyrs are described as the first group:
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The devil is cast down and directly persecutes the saints ( Jewish and Christian):
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
** the woman who brought forth the child is Israel, who is persecuted.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
** the untested Christians are persecuted.
How are saints martyred?
Here, in Revelation 20, it describes the martyrdom of the second group (time period), and possibly the first group.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Last Chance for Christianity
Until Jesus gathers all the saints from both groups, believers have a chance to take up their cross and follow Jesus.
God is not interested in prosperity messages, status in the church as deacon, pastor, prophet, apostle, book sales, or successful TV shows.
He is interested in a blood covenant with those who are willing to lay down this life for the next one.
The Lord died for us, our sins and our salvation.
Are we ready to die for Him, declaring allegiance to Him in faith?
Or will we deny Him, to save ourselves from persecution?
If we are not tested now, we will be tested later.
If we fail both tests, then our eternal destiny cannot be with Him.
371 Responses to "5th Seal – Martyrdom and Sorrow"
I GASPED in horror when seeing that picture above!!! You may want to put a warning label or something at the beginning of the post….just in case a child is exposed. I know sometimes my son is looking over my shoulder when I am reading these posts.
And to answer the question, my HONEST answer is NO, I am not ready to die this way!!! Who is?? How can anyone truly prepare themselves for this other than to read about it. I am thinking of Jesus as he was preparing himself in the garden of gethsame?….He was so distraught that He sweated blood! He was part human and we are given by G-d the "flight or fight" defense.
I tell you this and quite frankly I don't care who believes me anymore. When Obama was elected and I heard the Holy Spirit say to me "it has begun", I PANICED. I cried on the phone to my father because I could "see" what was coming. This can only be understood by those who understand the "things of the spirit"-the Holy Spirit. My only concern was for my children!!!
And I just knew my dad would think I had "lost my mind"; "gone over the edge", but instead, and to my surprise, he was just as concerned!!! As were close friends of mine who had already prepared their move out of the country if he was elected….and he was and they left. They have since returned but have 'one foot' out the door with Passport in hand if he is reelected.
Further, I must add that this is beyond disturbing and my heart races whenever I think about it. Sometimes I go back to denial and hope that we have hundreds of years left and we don't have to worry about this…..but everything keeps happening that alligns with scripture and prophecy and it can truly be overwhelming.
If it wasn't for the solar/lunar eclipses with tetrads occurring in 2014/2015 on Jewish Feast Days, I would be more hopeful for a longer period of time and would also be hopeful for a "natural death"/dying of old age.
I honestly, earnestly and desperately pray that G-d will PASS OVER us somehow and someway. Again, my only concern are my kids-MY BABIES. And I have to believe that as much as I want to spare my babies that G-d indeed wants to spare HIS!
I have seen Him do this twice over the past few weeks with the tornado and what happened on the interstate. I remember Noah and Lot and how they were spared from His wrath.
I try to understand correctly and hold to the scriptures in Revelation that says we will be kept from the "hour of trial". Revelation 3:10 and the ones found in 1 Thessolonians 4: 15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[g] 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died[h] will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
So NO, I am NOT prepared for any of this, BUT I am willing to lay down my life for my beautiful Saviour, L-rd of L-rd and KING OF KINGS!
And I thank G-d that I have His Holy Spirit within me to guide me, teach me, counsel me and COMFORT ME on these things.
I am "hearing" as I write this, "my G-d, my G-d in HIM will I TRUST"
Maranatha and SHALOM
Psalm 17:8 Keep me as the apple of your eye; hide me in the shadow of your wings
Psalm 27:5 For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle and set me high upon a rock.
Psalm 62:8 Trust in him at all times, O people; pour out your hearts to him, for God is our refuge. Selah
Psalm 91:1He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.a
2I will sayb of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."
Isaiah 12:2 Surely God is my salvation; I will trust and not be afraid. The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation."
Isaiah 26:4 Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
Isaiah 44:8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
For us nerds out there are you saying:
a.trib for Christians… trib for Jews and Christians
b.trib for jews, trib for christians, trib for both.
Is this all in the final week?
I am leaning toward b, with trib for Israel before the final week.
If you want to see the sky rolled up as a scroll, look here:
I've seen this effect in numerous videos, and I always think of this when I read the words about the sky being rolled back like a scroll. Scary times. Even the faithful will need to endure tribulation, but it can be countered by faith.
Hello all,
When John says that he sees the sky roll up like a scroll, I do not believe that it is caused by a nuclear explosion. I think that you will agree that most people know what a nuclear explosion would look like, but notice that in the verse, it states that kings, generals, mighty men and all people great and small, free and slave are hiding in the mountains and in the caves and calling for the mountains and the rocks to fall on them. Kings and generals would most assuredly know what a nuclear explosion would look like. So why are they running and asking the mountains and the rocks to fall on them, that is, to kill them? The answer is in the verse and that is because, when the sky rolls up like a scroll, they are seeing into the realm of heaven and God sitting on his throne, which is why they want the mountains and the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the face of him who is sitting on the throne. The sky rolling up like a scroll is allowing them to see into the realm of heaven that exists in paralell to our mortal demension, if you will, allowing the world to see what it would normally not be able to see. It is comparable to when John says in Revelation 4:1, "I saw door opened in heaven." The door would be an opening into the fabric of our sky with a view into the heavenly realms.
Also, I personally believe that because all of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments are initiated by the Lamb, Jesus christ, that they all fall under the wrath of God, which true believers are not appointed to suffer. There are four groups or types of people present during the tribulation/great tribulation, the saints of that time (not the church), The woman (Israel) who will be cared for 3 1/2 years from the middle of the seven until Christ returns to the earth to set up millennial kingdom, The 144,000 who the woman Israel gives birth to collectively called, "The Male Child" and those whose names that were not written in the book of life before the world began and who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark.
If you will notice, throughout chapter 1 thru the end of chapter 3, the word "Church" translated from the Greek "Ekklesia" is the only word used to describe those who belong to the Church and in fact is the very last word used at the end of chapter 3. From that time forward, the word used to describe a believer is the word "Saint," which is translated from the Greek "Hagios." Normally, when we read through the gospels or other books, the words Church and saint are used interchangeably, but not so here. I believe the reason for this is because this is God's clue showing that the church is gone before the use of the word saint, because you never see the word "Church" again within the narravive. That a fourth of the earth's population is killed by the time of the 4th seal and that Jesus is the one opening the seals, shows that this plague is also part of the wrath of God. I believe that this means that we will be resurrected and caught up prior to the 1st seal being opened, which is representing that beast, which is a counterfeit of the white horse that Jesus is riding on in chapter 20. that said, I don't believe that the church will be here to even see the man of lawlessness, but will have already gone. In fact, he could use our disappearance as the time to reveal himself, but we'll have wait to find out and see, won't we.
Hi Don
On the other hand, after chapter 3 John is in heaven and of course there is no more church or ekklesia in heaven. Also your statement includes that all the church will be raptured and no church remains on the earth. Thus there will be no one left behind, if somebody is left behind they would be the church. But when John looks around in heaven he does not see this crowd, only later. Also to the souls of martyrs is told that many will still be killed because of their faith.
I think Matthew 24 clearly puts the beginning of the tribulation after the fourth seal. These seals began being released at the time of the apostles, after Jesus ascension into heaven in a cloud. John wrote the book of revalation referring to past, present and future events, present being 60-90ad or whenever it was written. I think that what you see in the all the epistles is the consistent theme of correcting the churches which have been swayed by false prophets, however the first seal was not fully realized until several hundred years later when the catholic church mingled with the worldly kingdoms around the time of Constantine. That is when the Catholic church received its "bow, but no arrows" and began conquering.
We have to remember that the book of revalation has events in it that were already occuring at the time when John wrote it. Similarly Paul talks about the lawless one in thessolonians being held back. In other words lawlessness was around, but it was not yet unsealed or fully realized. Now the second seal, the red horse, began during the Renaissance, secularism, but it did not receive its full authority until communism. The black horse had its roots in the reformation, but it did not gain its authority until the capitalism of the US. The Chloros horse is the one that is now receiving its authority. Though the Muslims have been around for a long time, it is only now moving from monarchy/dictatorial governments to theocratic Government. Only then will the lawless one have its full authority. These are the four possible worldly kingdoms. All other governments are a combination of these four. It is these worldly kingdoms that the messiah will destroy at his second coming.
Put simply:
white horse= Monarchy government, serfdom economy, authoritarian religion
Red horse= Totalitarian government, communist economy, Secular or no religion
Black horse= republic Government, capitalist economy, free religion
Chloros horse= theocratic government, religious based economy, State religion (false religion)
Note all of these systems can be good or bad depending on who the leaders are, it is not saying all catholics are evil, all communists are evil etc. there is no value associated with them, The problem is human sinfullness. The messianic kingdom will depose all of these forms of governance Because all sinfullness will be judged, and punished accordingly. All four of these make up what revalation calls "Babylon".
Hi Dru,
I have to disagree with you in regards to the seals, as I do not believe that they have been opened yet. The book of Revelation is divided up into three sections as revealed in chapter 1:19, which says:
"Write, therefore, what you have 'Seen', what is 'Now' and 'What will take place later'"
What he had "seen" was everything that took place prior to his announcent to write, "what is Now" is resresented by the letters to the seven churches which is also representing the entire church age and which we are still in. The majority of the book of Revelation is given to "What must take place later," which follows the church age. Once the church is completed, the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the dead and living in Christ, which is followed by "What must take place later." The church will be gone, but there will be those who were not ready nor watching who will be left here and will know that they have been left and there will be others who will come to Christ during that time as well and who will not worship the beast, his image nor will they receive his mark. That fact that the word church is never seen again after the end of chapter 3 is a clue that the church is gone. As I said, the word used to describe a bliever after the end of chapter 3 is "Hagios" translated "Saint." It is not just a coincidence that the word church is missing and is no longer used.
Furthermore, another reason that I do not believe that the seals have yet been opened is because I believe that the 1st seal is representing the antichrist. The mention of him going out to conquer and bent on conquest are the words used to describe what he does to the saints during that last 3 1/2 years, that is, he is given authority to make war and to "Conquer" the saints.
Also, God through Isaiah says regarding those last days:
"I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir."
Jesus echos this same status of the world during those last days when he says:
"If those days had not been shortened, no one would survive, but for the elects sake those days will be shortened."
I say this because, we are currently in the "What is Now" part of Revelation and the "What will take place later" is coming soon. The idea behind God making man scarcer than pure gold is that, these plagues that are mentioned as the seals, trumpets and bowls are ment to happen within a short period of time, that being seven years where God will decimate the earth's population just as you read above. If the seals, trumpets and bowls judments had already started as some say, then the decimation of the population could not take place. By the time Jesus returns to set up his millennial kingdom, there will be only millions left on the earth opposed to billions, if even that many.
Why would you give a false description of the the first four seals when it already tells us in the verse what the horses represent?
White Horse: Conquerer bent on conquest
Red Horse: Takes peace from the earth and makes men slay each other (war)
Black Horse: Food shortage (Famine)
Pale Horse: Death (25% of the population killed)
I am giving an interpretation of the first four seals. Just as you gave one in your response. I agree that the first seal represents the antichrist. You interpret this as the catholic church, I interpret it slightly differently in saying that the catholic church is the women that rides the beast.
You say the red horse equals war. I say it equates with communism which has a history of taking peace from the earth, and slaying people.
You translate the black horse as famine, but I say the scales and the pricing of food, represents capitalism. Is it responsible for famine in the world, to some degree yes, but it will not hit fully till the ac is at the reins of capitalism. Protestentism, and its denominations, and "church marketing Mirror capitalism.
The Chloros horse or pale horse, you say brings death to 25% of the population. I say it is islam, which has "authority" over 25% of the population of the world. (I believe at last count it was 22%) will it kill people, yes, but in the hands of the ac it will kill many more.
So do not accuse me of misrepresenting scripture, but do say that you think I am misinterpreting it. Which is what I am trying to say you are doing. Nowhere does the description of the red horse say war, or the black horse say famine, or the pale horse say kill 25% of the population (It says its riders name is death, but not that it will kill 25% of population.
I realize that my interpretations may seem like a stretch to you saying that they are historical or present to us now, but I am also saying that until the ac comes on the scene, these seals will remain dormant, if you will. In other words they will not reach their full evil potential, as Babylon, the world systems of governance.
Actually, I am not even saying that we need to have a OWG, but merely a leader who controls all four of these systems.
Interpretations are prone to change, but for me this one stands out as the most likely, for now. who knows, I may change my mind someday.
Now Matthew 24 echos these seals, and clearly states that the tribulation starts when the persecution begins. (Yes I agree with something James says). I interpret this persecution as the fifth seal. The first four being in existence already. In other words, their is no time frame for the first four. Once ac assumes control, persecution begins is what I am saying, Not each horse gets a certain amount of time to occur and then the fifthseal. I believe that the evil of these four seals will be ongoing during the fifth seal, and in fact may contribute to the fifth. So In away you are right in putting these seals in the tribulation. What I am saying is that they are here and ready with the exception of the Chloros horse which is forming as we speak, how long this formation takes is TBD. when it is fully realized though, the AC will pop on the scene.
I just wanted to clarify, I did not say that the 1st seal/white horse is Roman Catholicism. The white horse is the antichrist, also know as the "Man of lawlessness. I believe that the false prophet, tha second beast, will be one of the future pope's, as well as the first beast's right hand man and since those who are decieved by that false religious system and its leader, they will follow the false prophet who will be working on behalf of that first beast, which is being represented by the 1st seal/white horse.
1st seal/white horse = The beast
2nd seal/red horse = World wide war
3rd seal/black horse = famine/disease
4th seal/pale horse = A fourth of the earth's population killed because of the previous horses.
A thought on why the church is only referred to in the first parts of revalation, is that, perhaps the churches as institutions will be on the side of the ac, In other words the saints will have removed themselves from those churches, and are now being persecuted by them.
Just a thought?
You think that this picture is bad? what would you do if you had watched it being done live .I was send such a horrible video and watched those 2 Christians about 4 or 5 years ago a French man and a young American being behead live by the rebels of Islam .I stood paralyzed crying as I watch them slicing slowly into their necks as if they were pigs ,slowly very slowly removed their heads The worst cruelty ever being done to a human being .You are usually more kind to an animal.The worst of all was that while the young man was being killed the french man was watching his screams in horror .So my friends brace yourselves .It is not going to be a quick death but a very slow and painful death.Are you sure you are read to meet the butcher? I know I am not i have asked the Lord not to let me die of such a horrible death but rather with either an Arrow through the heart of a bullet .I hope that God will have mercy on me and grant my petition .
Be blessed .
Let's see. Christians in Sudan, Africa proper, Iraq, Southeast Asia(where the above picture is from), Iran, the house of Saud, Syria, Egypt etc… Pretty much where one finds Islam, one finds beheadings of Christians, and forced marriages.
So, it is already started. However, it gets worse. May G-d grant brave honorable men in my Marine Corp the strength to destroy evil men, and act as a dating service to help the moon god worshipers get their just rewards.
Not to add confusion but last night and today it was brought to me about the Holocaust.
Six million of Gods' Jewish children who are the apple of his eye, were Murdered.
Is what happened to them called Martyrdom or Tribualation? Yes or No
Where they killed by Hitler because of their faith?
Is the Holocaust the time that was shared with Daniel?
Did any Jews remain in Judea at the time of the Holocaust and did they hide?
These murders occurred From Dec.– 1943 to May—1945 == 3 1/2 years! Does the fact that it was three and 1/2 years mean anything?
Is there something to be considered here?
Please don't misunderstand I am a born again Jesus Baptized Christian. The word says the Jews will be forgiven and will accept Jesus in the Last days.
Was this there tribulation?
Hi Pattie,
Though the Jew's suffered terribly in the holocaust, this is not the 3 1/2 years spoken of in revelation. Reason being is that, Israel is persecuted, but they flee out into the desert where they are cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years. Also, at the end of that 3 1/2 years Jesus returns to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, which I think that we can all agree hasn't happened yet, that is, unless you are a Jehovah's witness who believe that he has been here since 1914 ruling from the Watchtowner Bible and track society.
It seems to me that if you look at Revelation's 1-7 and then place 8-15 right under 1-7 and then 16-22 right under 8-15 and so on it could explain the time line better up to the— 16-22 end. in other words I am not saying its exact to place it that way but it might be helpful for a time line… I do know a song Christians could sing when facing martyrdom…
I pledge allegiance to the Lamb with all might strength with all I am I will seek to honor his commands, ray boltz…
Are you absolutely sure that you lot are not disturbingly weird? I don't think you are anywhere near as close to Christ as you think. Jesus died on the cross to show that physical death is irrelevent.
"I personally believe that because all of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments are initiated by the Lamb, Jesus christ, that they all fall under the wrath of God"
You can believe what you wish to make up but in the Bible it says
Sixth seal "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
ie the wrath doesn't occur until the sixth seal and the judement doesn't occur until the Trumpets (seventh eal).
Unless of course you include all of your judgements in which case they appear to occur every minute of every day!
Hi Mick,
First of all, where you say, " I don't think you are anywhere near as close to Christ as you think." As I have told various people on this site, my faith is not based on the interpretations of the timing of when things will take place in regards to the prophecies in revelation, but it is based on the shed blood of Christ. So, your assumption based on my interpretation of Scriptures as to how close to Christ I am is in error and no one's relationship to the Father and the Son should be based on end-time events.
Furthermore, I don't make up things from the word of God, I study them. The error that many make at the 6th seal is that, they think that because the announcement that the wrath of God has come at the 6th seal that it must necessarily start from that point on. Tell me, if you were watching your TV and on came a program with fifty woman standing on stage and one by one they moved to the front of the stage and then quickly exited until all fifty had displayed themselves, then afterwards the announcer comes on and says, "Welcome to the 2011 Miss America pageant." Would that mean that the pageant could not have started until after the annoucement or was the introduction of each of the fifty woman also apart of the pageant? Yes, what took place prior to the annnouncement would also be part of the pageant. In the same way, I believe that the 25% of the earth's population being killed at the 4th seal is also part of the wrath that had already begun and was just announced at the 6th seal. In other words, I believe that the annoucement includes what had already previously started with the opening of the 1st seal and that it is going to be continuing. Also, each of the seven set of judgments are referred to as God's wrath, with the seven bowls being last and they completing his wrath.
Also, where you say, "Unless of course you include all of your judgements in which case they appear to occur every minute of every day!"
This is another mistake that many make and that is discerning the difference between the trial and tribulation of those who belong to God who suffer at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, opposed to the wrath of God. This is in fact why the church cannot be here during the time when God is pouring out his wrath and that because his word says that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God (I Thes.5:9). Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour his wrath out upon it. The wrath is going to be for those who have continued to reject God's free gift of grace through his Son, Jesus Christ and who continue in sin. The true church has repented and are already walking with him and so he is not going to pour out his wrath upon those who have already repented and received him as Lord and Savior.
Corrie Ten Boom is on a very moving video and in it she states that she believes that it is a deceptive teaching for the church to propose that we will escape tribulation in an early rapture .
The words of this mighty and humble woman of G-d bear reflection, and oh what a role model she was in the midst of the Nazi persecution.
Hi Barbara,
Allow me to interject on this subject. First, it is important to understand that there is a big difference between tribulation and the wrath of God. Tribulation comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, where the wrath of God is God pouring out his wrath and that upon an unrepentent, Christ rejecting world. Therefore, where you say:
"But saints have always experienced tribulation, so I do not see this generation getting any special privileges.
This is true, saints have always experienced tribulation, but what will be taking place will be God's wrath. There will be great tribulation being performed by the beast and his false prophet, but it will be running parallel with God's wrath. The true church has already repented and received Christ and it is written regarding this time period that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. One of the purposes for the plagues that God is going to be pouring out upon the earth, is to get people to repent. It's like, currently God has his people testifing about Christ and the gospel to those who have not believed and the plagues will be his way of yelling louder, so-to-speak, to get people's attention. We as believers have already responded and as I said before, Christ is not going to build his church and then pour out his wrath upon it!
mick, I knew someone would misunderstand what I was talking about. however I think Its ridiculous to think that all of revelation will happen chronologically..John was obviously shown history and future events ie for example the woman giving birth to the male child and the dragon sweeping a third of the stars from heaven mean what had already happened. satan being cast to earth having a short time and him being tossed from heaven with a third of the angels are two different events…so when i had put chronology from 1-7 to 8-15 and then 16-22 I meant it…who are we to say God is bound by time lines that fit our doctrines. just like when pretibbers say well the marriage supper of the lamb has to be 7 years however we see that its not until Revelation 19…but they say hey its at Rev 3…we all know he's talking about John personally coming up hither…Now about the Ray Boltz song…its ok to some humor….
Hi Byron,
Byron said:
" I think Its ridiculous to think that all of revelation will happen chronologically"
The seals, trumpets and bowls are chronological as seen in the verse below:
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven lsat plagues–last, because with them God's wrath is completed." (Rev.15:1)
Since John states that the seven bowl judgments are "Last" this would infer chonology, because if you have something that is last, then something must have been first. In this case the bowls are last and complete God's wrath. So what was before the bowls, that would be the seals, with the trumpets following with the bowls following last.
You said:
"John was obviously shown history and future events ie for example the woman giving birth to the male child and the dragon sweeping a third of the stars from heaven mean what had already happened. satan being cast to earth having a short time and him being tossed from heaven with a third of the angels are two different events"
These in fact are the same events in that, From Rev.12:1-6 is a summary with 12:7-17 being a detail account. Satan and his angels still currently have access to heaven (Eph.6:12) where he accuses us before God day and night and will continue to do so until he and his angels are thrown down and restricted to the earth during the middle of the last seven years, which by the way is the 3rd woe. Also, I believe that you are inferring that the "Male Child" is Jesus as so many do, which would be incorrect because Jesus doesn't fit the criteria of the male child. The male child is "snatched up" translated "Harpazo" which is the same word used to describe the church being "Caught up" to meet the Lord in the air and the same word used by Paul when he was "Caught up" to the third heave and the same word used regarding Phillip when he "Snatched away" from the eunuch. The word "Harpazo" denotes "Force suddenly exercised or snatched up. That said, the male child is snatched up before the dragon can harm him, where Jesus was crucified according to God's plan. Ibid that the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who the woman (Israel) gives birth to. These will be the first fruits to God out of the nation Israel who will believe that Jesus is their Messiah. Another clue that the male child are the 144,000 is that in 14:4 is states that, "These are those who did not defile themselves with woman" which would infer that these 144,000 are all males, ergo, male child.
Stop scaring people…faith cannot endure if person know that he will be killed, apostles hoped that their generation would merit final salvation and accept word of Jesus Christ, so that final judgment would ghappen in their days – they did not live in fear of being martyred one day, only Lord knew for SURE that he would one day be crucified; David in psalms always prays that his life maybe spared, he always imagines of standing before God even when all his enemies were roundabout to kill him; We have to take example from David and do the same, God does not want us to suffer but that we repent WITHOUT suffering; God has a plan for each and every man personally…you know that some apostles did bad deeds until they became followers of Jesus, Paul even persecuted beleivers, so ONLY God knows whether we have to suffer physically or not;
Apostles could have being reincarnation of 11 brothers of Jospeph and his two sons Manasseh and Ephraim, including Paul;
These are the words written in a letter by Corrie ten Boom, who survived a nazi concentration camp and say thousands killed/persecuted for their faith:
How can we get ready for the persecution?
First we need to feed on the Word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.
Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History,
but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive
and sitting at the right hand of God.
We must be FILLED with the Holy Spirit. THIS IS NO OPTIONAL COMMAND OF THE BIBLE, IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.
In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other.
But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting.
The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.
Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, am a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible Nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also.
But then I read the Bible and I am glad.
When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.
"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", (Job 13:15)
for I know that to all who overcome,
He shall give the crown of life.
– Corrie Ten Boom – 1974
Hi Gabriel,
Just a short note, we as believers are credited with righteousness for faith just as father Abraham was, he being our father in faith. And so, we are saved by grace through faith, it is the gift of God. Also, God's word says that man is once to die then comes the judgment. The word of God also states that the spiritual did not come first, but the natural and after that the spiritual. To paraphrase, first we are flesh and then spiritual. In contrast, reincarnation has to do with coming back in the flesh over and over again in one form or another for the purpose of achieving perfection everytime that reincarnation occurs, which would not be in keeping with what God's word has to say about this subject. We as Christians should have a spirit that is always ready to be persecuted and even to die for his name sake and for the word of God, just as those in the beginning of the church were. In fact, there are many today in other countries who are being persecuted and put to death for Christ's name sake and the gospel and we should have the same spirit. We should be always praying that God will give us this spirit.
Reincarnation occurs because of the sin of Adam, reincarnation is death, until person in one of incarnations is ressurected or born in spirit and rectifies sin of Adam; So, there is no contradiction of God's grace, if you read Torah in hebrew God says in ten commandments that person can reincarnate three or four times;
Hey Gavriel,
Can you show me where it says that? "if you read Torah in hebrew God says in ten commandments that person can reincarnate three or four times;"
I've read the Torah and reincarnation is never mentioned. Reincarnation would go against salvation being a free gift through Jesus Christ. We are made righteous through Christ, not by coming back over and over in another form. What would be the purpose of Christ sheding his blood for us if we had to keep coming back in order to achieve perfection. God the Father views us through Jesus as perfect, even though we are not and that because Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life on our behalf and that is what God sees through our faith. We are made complete in Christ and as we go from faith to faith we are being transformed into his image. Reincarnation is foreign to Christianity. As I said previously, the word of God makes it clear that, man is "Once" to die and then comes the judgment.
Reincarnation? What is that .Do you not know that there is no reincarnation?reincarnation is a Hindu meth and it does not exist .One should be so lucky as to have those many lives to sin over and over again .Our lord gives us every opportunity while on earth to amend our lives according to His will but should we not repent then my friend we will fry for eternity .There is no way back .I will agree that you are right as far as frightening people and as you mention only God knows when it will happen perhaps not on our life time and it may also pass us ,But again it is up to God and not up to any man .
Hindu is pagan and distorted religion, BTW Hinduism was created by Abraham's 10 children through his wife Keturah which he sent to the far east, so Hindus derived that beleif from Abraham, though in distorted version;
However, it's not original Hindu beleif, God speaks about reincarnation in Ten Commandments, also Jeremiah and Ezekiel mention it, check my above post;
Jews understood the term "sin of the fathers" exactly as reincarnation, when Jews said that man that couldn't walk because of the sins of the fathers, Jesus didn't refute this beleif, rather that this wasn't the case, because the man was only crippled only in order that one day Lord would show his glory through him by performing a miracle;
Lord either didn't refute words of Nicodemus regarding reincarnation, but said that as long as person is not born from above from the spirit he doesn't merit kingdom of heaven;
Cycle of reincarnation shows God's grace and justice – how about all the good people which weren't born from above in spirit – will they go to hell along with wicked, murderers and idolaters??? NO! God will give them chance in another lifetime;
Hi Gavriel,
Read Luke 16:23
Read Rev 6:9
If reincarnation were true, then why is Lazarus in hell and why are there souls under the altar?
Download ALL the True Life in God messages in PDF format from:
April 12, 1997
My peace I give you, Vassula; come and hear your Holy Mother: the Word of the Almighty has indeed been addressed to you; come now, you whom God's message was entrusted; come and write this:
"Christos Annesti!" Alithos Annesti! 1
yes, Christ is risen, and this is what God wants you to say to everyone; declare to this dying world that My Son has indeed resurrected; preach a resurrected Christ, My angel, because many in your generation do not acknowledge this truth because of their rationalism; have you not read: "these same people boast of their worldly achievements, thinking they have everything they want and that they are in glory while possessing the worldly kingdoms;" they are filled with their own importance instead of the fullness of the triune God;
this is why the earth is in a turmoil and so much innocent blood is shed; but these are also the signs of the times; Satan and his dark dominion are spitting out on the earth their vomit, bringing afflictions into families and divisions too; they are raising false prophets around the world producing signs and portents as well, but this is so that the elect too may fall in their treachery; those false prophets are being poured on you like rain, bringing so much mischief and so much confusion, My poor children …. words and false oaths fill their mouths and their prophecies are like poisonous weeds that thrive now in the furrows of the Lord's field; their roots are spreading to bring forth new poisonous weeds;
the danger signals echo in your ears, My children, but you do not seem to understand or discern those signals; they search for the wind that will carry their voices higher than King Solomon's, the prophet Elijah's or Moses', declaring themselves stupendously greater, 2 by crowning themselves and asking themselves: "is it not wonderful to have so much power?" be warned, lest you be deceived and may God endow your hearts with discernment, so that His Glory given before your eyes, draws you into the Truth;
1 In Greek: Christ has risen. The response: "Truly He has risen". Greeting used usually for 40 days after the celebration of the Resurrection Day in Easter.
2 Our Blessed Mother is giving us a warning for those that declare themselves greater than Solomon, or those who go around saying that they are Elijah or Moses, or Enoch. Then there are the other souls in total illusion dragging many to read their illusions, and follow them.
This is not fearmongering . Jesus told us clearly in scripture to WATCH and be prepared for such times. It is critical to get more grounded and to be more deeply filled with the Holy Spirit so we can be witnesses in the times that are coming.
Perfect love casts out all fear , it can't be fabricated . Get ready and keep your eyes on Jesus. And pray.
"It is critical to get more grounded and to be more deeply filled with the Holy Spirit so we can be witnesses in the times that are coming."
Amen to that Barbara! We will need the Holy Spirit to help us endure what is coming. To be more specific, we need the Holy Spirit dwelling INSIDE of us. This comes from the baptism of the Holy Spirit of which Jesus talked about and promised to "ALL who are afar off, to those G-d has called" Acts 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call."
If we are called then we are told BY JESUS to receive the Holy Spirit so as to empower us for a better witness; so that the Holy Spirit can teach us, comfort us and remind us of everything that our L-rd has told us. He doesn't speak on His own-only what He hears from G-d. He is G-d's Spirit.
I don't know how else to emphasize how very very very important the Holy Spirit is and how He will HELP us when things turn from bad to worse.
Even Tho I am walking thru the valley…He never said it would be easy……but you said you would see me through the storm……
HE will CARRY ME…..song by Mark Schultz
O hi Gavriel
Where did you get the 7 children of Abrahan from the Egiptian slave .We know of only one son his name Ismael and by the way Ismael mother was not a wife to Abraham but a slave given to Sara by the king of Egipt .Therefore she was a slave and not a wife .As for the Hindus to be saved .I am afraid that it is false .Unless the convert to Christian faith they will not be saved .Hindus worship false gods many at a time and those are suppose to be demons .Now I have read most of the bible and i am pretty good at remembering the passages but cannot recall any references to Hinduism .I can however find Muslims which was the faith of Sara's slave faith but no Hinduism. Also you should all remember that the passages of the bible most special the ones spoken by our Lord Jesus were spoken in parables are are not to be taken literally for not everyone understands its meaning .Example a tree and it root :Will be a father or mother and their offspring .a harlot will be a nation and so on .so to interpret the bible as it is written in human language will only lead to confusion and that is why there is so much confusion today between the body of Christ and that is why it split from the Mother church (Catholic church 0.And this is causing our Lord Jesus Christ a great disgust and pain because His Body was broken into hundreds of peaces.Contrary to what humans want and believe .Our Lord Jesus Christ demands unity of His body and sooner or later one way or another it will be accomplished. We should all concentrate into doing His will and forget about our selfish reason and differences of what is right or wrong but unite in one as the Lord has command from the very start.LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I LOVE YOU. further He ask that we stay together and not separate but look what we have done with our selfishness, No does anyone really believe that they are doing God's will and that they will be saved? I doubt very much for even the catholic have accepted a modern way of life and have listened to rationalism.We have to remember in this modern times that our God is the same today as he will be tomorrow and was yesterday and will not change His ways of thinking .We therefore have got to realize both popes Cardinals Bishops etc. etc.from all faith's that the world is wrong and needs to amend for their sins and mistakes .Now weather it is going to be done by us or God it remains to be seen.
hi guys
Hello 🙂
In response to dru on April 25, 2011 at 4:44 pm:
Yes and france was a part of the roman empire. Hello palin express I've seen you around, but never interacted with you. You are catholic, No?
Sorry I cannot agree nor disagree .It is your life .you belong to God .So if you feel that you should leave the Catholic church: again it is your right .I too left the church years ago looking for God but few months later realize that I had the best of all religions .So you too have the same right. And it is a great thing that you still hold on the scapular and rosary I also wear one on my neck .
The thing I find cofusing is.. why are there so many ways to interpret the bible? If the message is that important then why not make it obvious and explicit? eg After 1260 days etc after 1290… after 1335 days after time times and half a time… All these details and then "no man can know the hour or the day" Then why give all the preceeding detail of numbers of days. And Revelation … why not just write it chronologically so we can work it out. I suspect that the seals and trumpets are chronological and the the dragon appearing starts the story again and convers the same seven year period.. but you may disagree that's my point. Why is the bible not OBVIOUS? We can't even decide if reincarnation exists or not. So why does the bible not say "if you hold onto your body you will be born again on Earth" or something similar. Is the Bible coding a secret and hence HAS to be obscure? or does it just want all Christians to disagree and be confused about the details?
Hey Mick,
you wrote "All these details and then "no man can know the hour or the day""
Research the Feast of Trumpets.
This is the one HIGH HOLY DAY/Feast/Holiday that the Jews did not know the "day nor hour that it began" because it depended upon the sighting of the NEW MOON which required 2 witnesses in order to confirm.
When Jesus was speaking to the disciples about His return, He was speaking a Jewish Idiom. The disciples, being Jewish, would have known what He was talking about.
A lot of people take this "literally" and because of our western way of thinking would not have "caught on" to what Jesus was saying/referring to.
When Jesus came the first time, He fulfilled 4 out of the 7 Feasts of the L-rd. See Leviticus 23:4
The last 3 remaining Feasts are:
Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashana-NEW YEAR)
Days of Atonement
Feast of Tabernacles (G-d dwells with us-New Millenium/7th day)
The Feasts are "dress rehearsals" for what is to come…..
Jesus fulfilled the following:
Passover: Jesus died
Unleavened Bread: Jesus was buried
First Fruits: Jesus was raised from the dead
Pentecost: Holy Spirit given
*Sabbath day continues as a dress rehearsal for the "7th day"/Millenium
Does this help?
Notice also in Revelation and 1 Thessolonians 4:16 where it mentions the "last TRUMP" and then think of "Feast of TRUMPETS" and then find out what actually happens during this Feast 🙂
and "why are there so many ways to interpret the bible?"
I have recently discovered that in order to understand the scriptures and interpret them correctly that we must learn the Jewish culture. The Bible is JEWISH not Western at all.
Learning the Feasts of the L-rd as well as the Jewish Customs and Idioms will help tremendously!!
The reason why there are so many interpretations of the bible, is that the church is in an imperfect state right now. It is also a reflection of the pluralism of our society.
I think understanding jewish culture is important in helping to understand scripture, but the danger in the claim you make is that it can lead to a self righteous interpretation thereof. I think God has placed the church in this pluralistic setting so that we will learn to, in humility, love one another, and our different expressions of our devotion to Christ. How God gets us to being a new creation in Christ, is not so important, but that we get there is. In other words, there is no exclusive formula that works, rather it is God through his grace that does the work.
I say this not to be critical of you or your approach to scripture, but when you use words like "must" It comes off the wrong way. your bottom sentence was better. "help tremendously".
Hey Dru,
We really do "need" to learn the jewish idioms and culture so as to understand a Jewish bible. Jesus is Jewish-not protestant/catholic/mormon etc…
G-d chose the Jewish people and everything the jews are and do are what G-d told them to do….G-d is the one who makes them "jewish".
What I have learned this past year is that the Feasts of the L-rd are G-d's divine appointments with His people. *They are dress rehearsals for what G-d HAS planned and what He IS planning.*
For example:
Learning the Feast of Trumpets will also explain the verses that say " G-d's trump; the last trump" etc
Learning why the priests went behind the curtain to the Holy of Holies will also explain why the curtain was torn in half when Jesus died.
When I learned about the Feast of Trumpets and that this Feast was the only Feast that "no one knew the day or hour it began" totally explained what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 24! That was a big one! 🙂
To view Jesus and the scriptures from a "roman", "french" or "american" point of view is futile.
For those who really hunger to understand what is in the scriptures we "need" to read it from a "jewish perspective". Then once we do that, we always take a "plain sense" approach for the most part.
G-d wants us to understand what He wrote to us.
He gives us at least 2 to 3 witnesses for what He says. If He says it once here, chances are He said it again elsewhere so as to clarify; to confirm.
This isn't a "formula" by any means. It just makes "plain sense"…..to understand a Jewish Messiah, we must understand a Jewish People 🙂
I knew you would take what I said the wrong way. I was trying to correct your language, not the point you were making. I agree with the point you make, and am currently looking into the feasts. "MUST" however is a harsh word to use, and can be seen as "my way or the highway" if you know what I mean.
It is G-ds' way.
The denominational attacks are pathetic. There is good and bad in all denominations who carry the mantle of Jesus Christ. I have family and friends that are Catholic, Protestant and Messianic who all sincerely love our Lord Jesus Christ and are Holy Spirit filled.
I sincerely believe that when we attack each other's expression of faith in Jesus Christ, we are doing the work of the dark side .
Matthew 24:9-14 couldn't be any clearer to me personally. I will take Jesus at His word and hey, if I'm wrong and the rapture comes first, Hallelujah !
thank you Barbara, I can't agree with you more. Christ's blood is the only thing that saves. so long as expressions of faith are done to glorify God then I say amen!
When they are done with the belief that they are needed for salvation, then I correct.
Ephesians 4:13-16 "Until we ALL attain to the UNITY of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to MATURE manhood (or Womanhood) to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14.So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15. Rather, speaking the TRUTH IN LOVE, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
16. FROM WHOM the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when EACH PART IS WORKING PROPERLY, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in LOVE."
Your statements show that maturity! and that is the oneness we must seek!
Dear Lyndsey,
I appreciate your input. It does appear that end times unfolding has everthing to do with Israel and fall feasts.
We have been left ignorant of these things with the replacement theology of the church through the ages.
Many are beginning to see we are truely grafted in.
Marianne, I forgot to thank you for your website here where vital and interesting discourses happen . It has caused me to think about and reflect often. God bless you.
I'm sorry to have posted too many times this morning now this makes three
but I forgot to thank you !
is there such a thing as posting too many comments?
Dru your excellent input is always appreciated too.
How is that for number 4 ?
We need people like you here, I do not think there is a limit on how many times you post!
A little warning though, the debate does get heated at times, as you were witness to. Hopefully in the end it glorifies God.
The denominational attacks are pathetic. There is good and bad in all denominations who carry the mantle of Jesus Christ.
Thank you Barbara for you wonderful words .I too have different friends in different faith and i do neither argue with them nor do i try to convert them i simply accept them as they are . When a Christian look's at any of God's children he she should only see the true image of god in them and not look for ways to bring them down .many of you profess to have the Holy spirit in you ,but I say that you are lying because if you had the Holy spirit in your .You would be able to be color,race, or sin blind for it is the way that the Holy Spirit sees us .And only He knows the truth behind all that goes on a person's heart. i can testify to it because I have felt that not just once but many times .When you are without sin in your life ,the scales of your eyes fall down and you are able to see, past all the evils of the world and see only love .So again unless you can see .what the Lord god in His love for me allowed me to see and feel .You are a liar!I person with the Holy spirit in it is like an walnut it is full nothing else can penetrate in her .no sin of any kind and nothing that comes from the devil either in thought or deed will ever be able to penetrate that body and soul because it has become the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I have no idea what color or race you are; and I don't care.
I do care, however, that lies are being taught and that the lies are being believed. How do I know they are lies? Because they are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. 🙂
We obviously see things differently. You see unity for all and "we are all ok". I do not believe in unity, for Jesus says we are not to be "unequally yoked". He tells us to be "separate".
G-d is love and He shows us His love through correction and leading us to the truth.
Sorry to go backwards but.. I was under the impression that the new testament was originally written in Greek? ie learning Hebrew is not really a solution. Surely the bible was intended to cross cultural boundaries.
Me again,
I totally agree with you in that the word of God was intended for all people. He knew before the world began that he would be calling the rest of the world to believe in his Son. After all, he did say, "As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
And why isn't the abomination of desolation mentioned in Revelations (or is it?), that would at least help. There are hardly cultural reasons for that.
Morning Mick,
If I may interject, the abomination of desolation is mentioned in revelation by description only and not by the title as mentioned by Daniel and Jesus. See the following verse:
"Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an [image] in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the [image] of the first beast so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the [image] to be killed. (Rev.13:14-15)
This is a description of the abomination of desolation as ordered by the second beast also known as the false prophet, but the abomination is not mentioned by title. This is the same image/abomination that will be set up in the holy place within the temple. I have my own idea of what this image/abomination could be if you are interested. I will tell you this, I believe that the abomination and the mark of the beast have something to do with each. L8R
Yes I am very interested.
just testing to see if it worked
"In fact, that 7th trumpet … is Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth."
NO its not. see below
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (42 months)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out,"…
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent
(second 42 months)
That makes 7 years ie a repeat of the seals and trunpets.
"If you notice, there is nothing mentioned in the verse at the blowing of the 7th trumpet that mentions anything about the Lord coming"
Is this not mentioned in the sixth trumpet.?
"a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."
I assumed this was the Son of man as from the sixth seal ie Sun darkened, stars fall etc and then "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!"
Matthew 24:29-30 says this occurs AFTER the Abomination of desolation and 'great tribulation' So even the sixth seal is AFTER the A of D. AFTER this…
Mat 24:31
"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds," So it looks as though the Elect are saved from all the trumpets OR they are taken up at the sixth trumpet with the Witnesses. Then the hour of Gods Wrath at the seventh trumpet follwed by the bowls and seals etc. It is this part that the Church will avoid. So the Church the church either avoid ALL of the trumpets OR just the seventh (last) trumpet, depending on how optimistic you are.
As for the tree of knowledge, of course it's not a 'real' tree made out of wood.
"Christ, at his first coming, laid the axe there (at the root of the tree); at his second coming He will lift it up and smite!" Christ is not a lumberjack. The fruit of the tree is knowledge which can be used for liberation or power (good or evil). At present it is being used for power which is why it is to be cut down and only the good fruit saved.
But please check the mattew/Rev seal and trumpet thing first.
Just found this.
"The rapture of the saints cannot occur until the last trumpet is sounded. "Behold I show you a mystery we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52). This gives the timing of the rapture.
marianne said "there is a set of trumpet blasts on Rosh Hashannah. The last trump is the great trump, or shofar gadol. It signals the end of the holiday."
This is exactly what I was thinking.
I wish that those who are trying to figure out the prophecies would consider and LEARN the Feast of Trumpets!
Hello again Mick,
Yes, I am very familiar with the information regarding the last trumpet. The issue is that there are different types of trumpets that were used in Israel and we don't even know if the trumpets associated with israel are even in view. Not only do we not know what set this last trumpet belongs to, but we don't know at what time that trumpet will be sounded, just that it is the last one. All we do know is that the resurrection and catching away of those in Christ will take place at that last trumpet.
There are people who try to make the 7th trumpet of the sevnen trumpet plagues that last trumpet, but as I said before, these trumpets are plagues and not blessings. In fact, that 7th trumpet is the 3rd woe, which is Satan and his angels being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth. The other proof is that there is not one thing mentioned about the Lord returning to receive the church at the time that the 7th trumpet is blown. Not to mention that if anyone tries to make that 7th trumpet the last trumpet, this would put the entire church through much of the wrath of God.
August 20, 1992
(Rhodos, Greece)
dear and faithful child, while you are weak, I am King; here I am sending you back to your own to remind them of My principles; some of you have become mild and tepid for you have welcomed My words without trust when you gather together in My Name;
woe to those who sell My Blood to honour their name! woe for those who are satisfied now and direct their lives by their natural inclinations and ignore My Spirit! woe to those who will become an obstacle to the door I Myself have thrown open to announce My Message; woe for those who believe they act wisely with the world, they are servants of the world, not Mine; they are slaves of the world and espoused to hypocrisy, corruption and all that My Heart abhors;
you say you suffer injustice for the sake of My Name, rejoice! for My Day will soon dawn upon all of you with fire; rejoice and be glad when people accuse you and disgrace you publicly, exhibiting you as a spectacle of disgrace, for My sake and My Message; all the greater will be your reward in heaven for having endured with love the insults of the world;
pray so that your chains that still bind you to the world may be unbound by Me; pray for those who cannot tell their right hand from their left hand; no one is worthy of My Call, so do not blame the proud; grace now is upon you and Mercy is enveloping you; your King has offered you His Heart wholeheartedly but I have noticed that not everyone has offered Me their heart entirely, not everyone is willing to comply with My principles; no, not everyone has gone according to My Heart's desires, but has listened instead to their own voice, that which is their own law because of their weak faith; to these I say: pray that you may not lapse from My favour, pray that you will do My Will; let My words spread now and do not be subject to your human thinking;
I have three more questions to ask:
why have you reduced My Voice?
what have you done with the Messages I have chosen to be read?
where has the man once so eager to please me gone?
Father! Forgive them for they know not what they are doing! ….
My child, prophesy! let your mouth with My words be like a sword …. serve Me, Love is near you;
Lord, what if they do not do Your Will?
then I shall withdraw My Heart, My favours and My graces, but My Cross will remain;
(This message was given to those who laid blocks on the passage our Lord had opened. Temptations, fear, doubts led certain people not to trust and rely on the plan God had prepared for Rhodos. Jesus warned them.)
Jesus explained that the family of God consists of those who listen to the Father: "My mother and My brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it" (Luke 8:21). He also said: "He who is of God hears God's words" (John 8:47); "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27); "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice" (John 18:37).
Paul warned Timothy that some people will turn their ears away from the truth: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4)
Marianne, here's a link (in Spanish but you will get the idea) of how Matthew 24:36 is written in different types of Bibles. There's seven, but on the right side column you will see cross-references to the same verse, in another chapter of the Bible. I like this.
Look at the top bar and check out the different types of Bible versions to compare.
I did a search on Yahoo! on "nobody knows the day nor the hour" but I typed it in Spanish. I believe if you do so in English or Greek the answer will be there.
Thank me later 😉
Translate this to English. Interesting! This person belongs to the Watchtower org but can't get out. Seems like a wise person too.
Oh yeah there's that tidbit too, that is spreading like wildfire…rapture and Judgment Day is next month, May 21, 2011.
Hey Johanna,
I noticed the other day that May 21, 2011 falls on a saturday….the jewish sabbath….Jesus takes that day off! LOL just sayin 🙂
I have His daily planner…..laughing 🙂
Vassula has asked for this new message, which she received this morning, to be published and made known.
Message to be released of May 5, 2011
tell My people and remind them that: love covers over many sins; let your love for each other be proven to be true…
allow Me to refresh your memories: it is a blessing for you when they insult you and persecute you for My Sake because it proves that I, God, am resting on you…if you were only to please men I would not have called you; if you were to work hard for your interests and glory and not for Mine, I would have turned My Eyes away from you;
open wide your hearts and receive Me; be united, helping one another and try to console My people in these times; the love of your neighbor should be your main concern;
remember, to proclaim My Message far and wide for the smell of death has reached heaven and the punishment that awaits this generation will be drawn upon the earth because of its incredulity and its apostasy; the envoys I am sending you are not heard and My Spirit is blasphemed; many are recklessly injuring My Church, stoning My prophets; many are decaying and now visible signs are given in proportion and weight of their apostasy and their sins;
hardship and distress are upon this faithless generation; these are signs given already to them because of their refusal to reconcile with Me;
I have justified many of you before my Father, however, I want a return of love, a return of faithfulness; I have revealed to you how I work, and what I am in search of; you have heard My Message of Unity and believed it; I have shown to you the purpose of My calling; you have stamped your seal giving Me great honor, can one deny what one believes? Keep alive in your heart what you were taught in the beginning and refuse to sell My Blood; I give you my peace telling you: do not fear for I Am with you; bear My Name and honor Me; ic
I understood that "bearing the name of Christ" means bearing His Cross, but as He once said: His Cross does not bear only sufferings but joys as well…
Marianne .Thanks for posting the message .Please notice that the message has been tripled.I only posted it once .Have also noticed this with other very important messages which I have post in the past, and I have the feeling that the Holy Trinity is making sure that we know that it comes from God as in 3 times posting .I guess that the Lord is trying to get our attention and making sure that we know that it is the Trinity speaking .
Dear DMca
I just read your comment on the 3 1/2 years. I know it is not the 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation. Most people say oh we the Gentiles are pretrib and the suffering is for the Jews. They say this because they failed to accept Jesus as the Messiah. It is not and so I just wondered did they pay their 3 1/2 years during the Holocaust.
Reason for question:
Since God is no respecter of persons, the Jews had to have paid it somewhere. I thought it odd the timing being the same.
I think with time I might be able to prove but I also thought that may be Marianne might have already crossed this bridge.
But then by her comment to me she did not. It will require a little research because so Far no one has provided the answer I am looking for and I know it is covered in the word. If you understand what I am saying.
Interesting concept, although holocaust was longer than 3.5 years.
Hi Pattie,
I don't know if we have ever met on this site or not, so I'm Don, good to meet you. To answer your question, first of all, as you may or may not know, the seven year time span was established in the book of Daniel. The angel told Daniel the following:
"Seventy 'sevens' are determined upon you people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."
These seventy 'Sevens' are seventy seven year periods or 490 years. Without going into all the details, sixty nine of those seven year periods or 483 years were fulfilled when our Lord was crucified which is represented in the verse below:
"After six-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing."
Since this completed a total of sixty nine of the seventy 'sevens, that leaves one 'seven' left, that is, one seven year period, which is described in the following verse:
"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an obomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Dan.9:27)
AS I said earlier, sixty nine or 483 years were completed when Jesus was crucified. At that time God left off dealing with Israel's program under the law and began to build the church, which is still currently on-going. Once the church has been completed, (ibid) the resurrection and catching away of the church, dead and alive, will take place and then God will click on his prophectic stopwatch so-to-speak and pick up where he left off with Israel completing that seventieth 'seven' or that last seven years fulfilling the seventy 'sevens' or 490 years there were prophesied.
As the verse states, what initiates that last seven year period is when that ruler, also called the man of lawlessness, the beast and the antichrist, makes that covenant for one 'seven.' So, that seven years is defined by first the covenant being made which starts it, then it states that in the middle of that seven years he causes the daily sacrifice to cease and sets up that abomination in the temple and so, the setting up of that abomination marks the middle of the seven years or the first 3 1/2 years. The last 3 1/2 years begins from the setting up of that abomination until the return of Jesus 3 1/2 years later to bring human government to its close and to establish his government.
Now, with all that said, you question is:
"I just wondered did they pay their 3 1/2 years during the Holocaust."
And the answer is, though the Holocaust was a terrible event, this was not the time of Jabob's trouble or that last 3 1/2 years. The simple reason is that, once that ambomination is set up in the temple which takes palce in the middle of the seven years, the woman (Israel) will be cared for out in the wilderness from the dragon's (Satan) reach for that last 3 1/2 years, with the completion of it being the return of Jesus. I'm sure that you will agree that, the man of lawlessness has not yet made that seven year covenant, nor have we seen that abomination set up and since we have not seen any of those things, we certainly have not seen Jesus' return to the earth to establish his government.
So, in short, since the end of Israel's
3 1/2 years of trouble is marked by Jesus' return, then the holocaust could not have been those 3 1/2 years that are being spoken of because that would have meant that at the end of the holocaust we would have seen Jesus' return. Jesus' return to the earth is the climax of that last 3 1/2 years and the entire seven year period.
Now, regarding your other comment as seen below:
" Most people say oh we the Gentiles are pretrib and the suffering is for the Jews. They say this because they failed to accept Jesus as the Messiah."
First of all, the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile where there is no difference, for all are in Christ under a new covenant of grace apart from the law. Ibid, the church escapes the tribulation that is coming because it is the wrath of God, that is, those seals, trumpets and bowls are going to be poured out by God upon a sinful, unrepentant, Christ rejecting world. The true church has already repented and received Christ and we are therefore not appointed to suffer God's time of wrath and since his wrath will affect the entire globe and every person on it, the church cannot be here.
Regarding the woman/Israel, she is going to give birth to a male child, which ibid are the 144,000 who are also described as being all males. These are the first fruits to God out of the nation Israel who will come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah and they will be snatch up to his throne (Rev.12:5,14:4). The woman (Unbelieving Israel) will flee into the wildernes, which is the desolation that will be caused by the abomination being set up. She will be cared for 3 1/2 years out of the reach of the dragon. I believe at some time during that last 3 1/2 years, she will also come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah. My reason for this is because of something Jesus said to them:
"Look, your house is left desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord."
When Jesus said, "Your house is left desolate," he was saying that God was no longer going to dwell in the temple. And he also told them that they would not see him again until they said, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Therefore, I believe that at some time during the last
3 1/2 years out in the wilderness is when they will proclaim this. I believe that the woman/Israel who will be cared for will be among those who enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortall bodies, along with those of the great tribulation saints who survive through the end of that last 3 1/2 years and both will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth during that time. Where those who will have been previously resurrected and caught up along with the great tribulation saints that were killed and will be resurrected at Christ's return, will rule with Jesus during the millennium.
Sorry for being so long-winded, but I like to give the details and the Scripture as to the why's and howcomes. I hope that this information helps.
The Holocaust was exactly 3 1/2 years from December 1941 to May 1945.
The prophet Daniel was shown visions of the distant future of his people. That means it was the house of the Jewish descendants.
Daniel 8:26 "The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future."
Daniel 10:14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."
Daniel 7:25 "God's people will be helpless in his hands for three and a half years"
Micah 3:3-4 who eat my people's flesh, strip off their skin and break their bones in pieces; who chop them up like meat for the pan, like flesh for the pot?" Then they will cry out to the LORD, but he will not answer them. At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done.
(Isn't this exactly what that barbarian did besides the gas chambers he made lampshades of their skin. Is is so bad it is
difficult to talk about)
Luke 21:24-25-26 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (Is this hardening the Holocaust?)
Revelations 11:2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
Background on Hitler
The Trumpet chapter 4
"Hitler saw himself as the Messiah of the People".
"The Vatican was so appreciative of being recognized as a full partner that it asked God to bless the Reich.
"Hitler changed the German calendar and days of festivals".
So he fits the same profile of the anti-christ. God surely is not respecter of persons, as we know and this to me proves it.
WOW! I did not know this….the holocaust was spoken of in the scriptures……I am speechless
Hi Pattie,
Throughout history, people have identified different men as being the antichrist, Nero, stallin, Hitler, Reagan, Obama, etc. The fact is that, for anyone to be properly identified as the this man of lawlessness, he must fulfill what is written of him, otherwise we are just guessing. And just to mention a few, we know the way in which he is going to reveal himself is by making a seven year covenant with Israel and others. We also know that in the middle of that seven years that he will break that covenant and set up an image of himself in the temple, which is that abomination. It is also said that he will have a side-kick called the false prophet, who will literally be performing miracles, signs and wonders in the site of the inhabitants of the earth, even causing fire to come down out of heaven in plain view of men(2 Thes.2:9-10; Rev.13:13)
Therefore, if we look back at these men that others proclaimed to be the antichrist, we can easily see that they did not fit the criteria of being that man of lawlessness. Not only this, but we know that none of these men could have been the antichrist because the antichrist is here at the time when Jesus returns to the earth, making war against him and Jesus has the beast along with the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire alive!(Rev.19:19-20)
Based on the above, I think that we can all agree that the antichrist hasn't revealed himself just yet, but it's getting close.
Ezekiel 28
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre
1The word of the Lord came to me: 2"Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'In the pride of your heart
you say, "I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas."
But you are a man and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.
3Are you wiser than Daniela?
Is no secret hidden from you?
4By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.
6"'Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,
7I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.
8They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.
9Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.
10You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.'"
11The word of the Lord came to me: 12"Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire,b turquoise and beryl.c
Your settings and mountingsd were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.'"
A Prophecy Against Sidon
20The word of the Lord came to me: 21"Son of man, set your face against Sidon; prophesy against her 22and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
"'I am against you, O Sidon,
and I will gain glory within you.
They will know that I am the Lord,
when I inflict punishment on her
and show myself holy within her.
23I will send a plague upon her
and make blood flow in her streets.
The slain will fall within her,
with the sword against her on every side.
Then they will know that I am the Lord.
24"'No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.
25"'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the Lord their God.'"
The covenant is confirmed with MANY…we do not know for sure if it is WITH Israel or ABOUT Israel.
Daniel 9:24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And HE SHALL CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
*this covenant could very well be with the surrounding muslim nations
I hope it is ok that I copy/paste your post so that I can show this as proof to someone on another site that the Holocaust was INDEED punishment for the jews and fulfills G-d's punishment for them (this *&*&& doesn't think the Holocaust qualifies as "punishment") GRRRRRRRR
A van full of eyewitnesses, missionaries traveling across America to evangelize and pray, stumbled across these boxcars in Montana, near Columbia Falls in Glacier. They described boxcars, in this case painted black, with shackles welded into them and a modern guillotine at the head of each boxcar inside. As they were photographing mountain scenery, they decided to follow railroad tracks into the wilderness so as to not get lost. This is how they came upon these boxcars with shackles. I later received a report from Lee Harrington of Valier, MT, who was a professional metal worker. He told me how in Glascow, MT, summer youth workers were employed to weld shackles into boxcars in that operation. They were then shipped west to Glacier and stored on remote sidetracks. Passing through the Blackfoot Indian Reservation in Cutbank, a local Blackfoot Indian, George Bullcalf, spotted these strange boxcars. When I interviewed local Patriots in Columbia Falls, they confirmed that hunters often stumbled upon such boxcars on remote train spurs in that wilderness region.
I THEN TRAVELED TO PORTLAND OREGON, and lectured in the home of an actual employee of GUNDERSON STEEL FABRICATION. The wife of this high level executive called this meeting personally to make a public admission. In the meeting were OTHER GUNDERSON EMPLOYEES who had witnessed the prisoner boxcars in the higher than normal, three floor/three tier prisoner boxcars.
She admitted that her husband finally told her that GUNDERSON WAS UNDER SECRET CONTRACT FROM THE US GOVERNMENT TO PRODUCE THESE PRISONER BOXCARS. She also admitted that Gunderson had a satellite factory for a boxcars with shackles operation in Texas.
Hello all
I thought this would be the appropriate place to put this, as to the topics being discussed. Luke 17:33 "Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34. I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken, the other left….37. And they(disciples) said to him, 'Where Lord?'(I view this as a shocked response) He said to them, "Where the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." (prety ominous?)
Jesus then goes on to tell them the Parable of the persistent widow. Luke 18:6-8 is his response. "Hear what the unrighteous Judge says. 7. And will not God give Justice to his elect who cry to him day and night? 8. I tell you, he will give justice to them (future elect) SPEEDILY. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, WILL HE FIND FAITH ON EARTH?"
Many have used these verses to describe the rapture. Still others say that these are referring to God's Judgement of the wicked (see Mccarthur bible). I believe they are referring to the Fifth seal, and the persecution of the disciples. That is clearly who he is talking to. Will we who have faith, fear death or will our faith be strong enough to lose our life? Will we be persistent in or prayers for Justice, or will we "give up" on God? Will we be as Humble as the Tax Collector (Luke 18:9-30)? Or will we have the repentence of a child (Luke 18:15-17)? Or conversely, will we be so attached to things of this world as the rich ruler, or leave even our families for the sake of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:18-30)?
This is the choice we will be making during the fifth seal. This will be only for the "Elect", not all Christians, But will determine whether or not all Christians will be saved from the final tribulation, or rather how soon. (LYNDSEY, On a personal note, this is how I interpret your dream with your son. I pray the Spirit will show you what I mean.) This is what will Turn a fathers hearts toward their children, and their childrens toward their parents. Will the Son Of Man find this kind of faith on earth?
This is why We Cannot Know the Day OR the Hour of the rapture.
May God bless.
Hi Dru,
I hope you don't mind if I respond to this, but I'm not sure if those verses are referring to the fifth seal.
If I may;
I think that many have believed at some time or the other, (myself included) that these verses were referring to the rapture. I suspect a significant amount of us still do. Traditionally the passages have been interpreted as being, "One left behind to suffer the tribulation", and "One who is taken as the one that is raptured". However, if you compare both Matthew and Luke, where Luke gives us an extra detail to take into consideration, it should leave us questioning what has formally been the traditional definitions.
Please allow me to present the following for consideration as to why in my opinion, they are not referring to the rapture, or to the fifth seal.
(36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
(37) But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(38) For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
(39) and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
(40) Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
(41) Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
(42) Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming." Matt. 24:36-42. NKJV.
So far this still appears to possibly be referring to the rapture. However, also notice that Christ does not say anything about the ones that were taken away, as being "caught up" to be with Him.
Now lets look at Luke 17:20-37 which is referring to this same event, yet introduces something different.
(20) Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
(21) nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
(22) Then He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
(23) And they will say to you, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!' Do not go after them or follow them.
(24) For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
(25) But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
(26) And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
(27) They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
(28) Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
(29) but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
(30) Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
(31) In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back.
(32) Remember Lot's wife.
(33) Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
(34) I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
(35) Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
(36) Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
(37) And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Luke 17:20-37. NKJV.
Notice that in verse 37, that the apostles ask Christ the question, "Where Lord?"
That question is logically then referring as to "where" had those that Christ had just spoken about "been taken", which is self evident by Christ's response. His answer to that question was, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." So, by that answer, it appears that those that have been "taken" will end up with the eagles. (BTW, the word that has been translated into the word "eagle" in some of the earlier Bibles, is the Greek word,"aetos"(Strong's # 105) which by it's definition, could have easily have been translated as "Vulture." In many of the newer more reader friendly versions it has been.)
Christ did make a similar comment to this before, back in Matthew 24:28. NKJV. He said, "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles, (or "aetos" vultures) will be gathered together."
Now we know that we don't enter the Kingdom as flesh and blood, (Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." 1 Corinthians 15:50, NKJV)
But surely when we are raptured, we don't leave our dead carcass's lying around everywhere either, to have them simply picked clean by the eagles, do we?
The fact that Christ's body was required to be glorified for His resurrection, must mean that ours will be required as well.
As Bereans we have to investigate scripture further then. What other parables seem to correlate with this?
Well, how about the one about the "Wheat and the tares?"
Christ says,
(24) Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
(25) but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
(26) But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
(27) So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
(28) He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
(29) But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
(30) Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:24-30, NKJV.
Notice that the tares, (or weeds) are gathered up "first" and burnt, before the good seed of the wheat are harvested.
How does Christ explain this parable to the disciples?
"36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
(37) He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
(38) The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
(39) The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
(40) Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
(41) The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
(42) and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(43) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" Matthew 13: 36-43, NKJV
Clearly this is indicating that those that are evil will be taken, where others that are righteous will be left. And in regards to them being with the Vultures, that should also point us to another event that is expressed regarding end times.
John said in Revelation 19:17-18, 21. NKJV
(17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
(18) that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." ……. "21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."
So, there is definitely the possibility that the verses above that have been traditionally considered to be referring to the rapture, are really in actuality describing a completely different event, and by how they appear to correlate, I don't believe, in my opinion, that they are referring to the fifth seal either.
So the question now becomes, who are the tares? And when will this event take place?
I also would like to acknowledge that I learned this while participating on this site. It is a wonderful resource.
Try comparing what revalation and Matthew 24 say about the fifth seal, to what is said in Luke.
Sorry alienated,
I did not have much time to respond this morning to you. I agree that these verses are not traditionally associated with the fifth seal. I think I even expressed that. As I reread what I had wrote, it did seem to come off a bit strong, as if it was my way or the Highway.
At any rate, my study of scripture, lately, has been focussing on the concept of discipleship, and the "elect" and his commandments to them. In Particular, his commandments to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34 and John 15).
Then the thought occurred to me that perhaps these concepts were referring to the fifth seal.
Revalation 6:9-11:
9: When (Jesus) opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of those who had(past tense) been slain FOR THE WORD OF GOD AND THE WITNESS THEY HAD BORNE. 10. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' 11. Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a LITTLE LONGER, until the NUMBER of their (Disciples) fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, Who WERE KILLED AS THEY THEMSELVES HAD BEEN."
I see a definate correlation with what was said in Luke here.
Now Matthew 24:9ff says in describing the fifth seal,"9. Then they will deliver you(Disciples) up to tribulation and PUT YOU TO DEATH, and you will be hated by ALL nations for my NAME"S SAKE. 10. And then many will fall away and betray one another…."
In other words, we will be faced with a choice, die for our faith (For God's Kindom) , or betray our brothers in Christ and live (our worldly Kingdom). Please note also the words "ALL NATIONS" above. this includes america, and Israel. In other words this prophecy is no respecter of nations.
So, In conclusion, Is our faith in the cross such that we will be able to make this decision, or will we be like Judas and Peter, and betray those who are being Christlike. Matthew 24:22 give us some hope in that those days will be cut short. Note that verse 29 then begins to explain the sixth seal, and the rapture.
Now my reasoning on Luke talking of the fifth seal is this. Matthew 24:36 and following is talking of the judgement, of one being taken and one left. whereas verse 28 refers to the fifth seal. Though similar language is being used, Matthew separates the "vultures", from the ones being taken in Judgement. fifth seal vs. sixth seal. Note also that there is a quantitative element to the fifth seal as described in revalation.
God bless. Ihope you can understand what I am saying.
Hi Dru,
Sorry brother, but to answer your last question, I would have to reply with, "Nope?"
It's probably my fault, maybe my thyroid meds haven't totally kicked in yet, so my brain is still on pause mode. Or, maybe I'm just a dope?
I have to head out right now, so I'll check in later on and see if I can comprehend what it is that you are trying to express then.
Sorry bro. Be patient.
Hi Dru,
I can't say with any certainty, that I completely understand what it is that you are saying here, but I think that I may get the gist of it.
Revelation is such a difficult book to try to fully understand, and it has never been my particular passion of interest, so I guess I shouldn't be the one to really comment on your theory.
I think that when I responded above, I simply wished to clarify how the "One taken, One left" has been misinterpreted.
I wish you all the best in you search regarding this though.
Maybe someone else would like to comment on it?
Hi Alienated,
I remember reading that "the one taken and one left" represented a Jewish Holiday/Feast?
I thought it was fascinating when I read it. It talked about how the Jews were in the fields alongside non Jews and when they heard the shofar blown they would stop immediately and go to the synagogue…the non jews of course would stay behind.
You Can't stay "alienated" from the book of revalation forever, there is a reason it is there. I remained largely "alienated" from revalation until this last year. Studying it has brought a whole new understanding of the immensity of what is in the bible. It also has helped me comprehend current events in a unique perspective. I think the key is to absorb as many varying theories as you can, and then read and pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance.
I tend to be an out of the box thinker with my studies, and explore the unconventional. That is part of the "fun" of studying the Bible for me. I guess I am wired a little different than most. Sometimes I will put something out there for people to debate, and have my mind changed, other times, I find little or no compelling arguements for them. I was schooled in the social sciences, so I tend to come at things with a skeptical mindset, Though I hold strong beliefs on the important things, and will defend them with vigor. The fun thing about revalation is that we will not know ultimately how it is supposed end until it happens. But if it is as past prophecy in the Bible, it will be 100% accurate.
In a sense, Revalation keeps us humble, and for Christians this is a good thing, Yes?
yes, Revelation is a most humbling experience for most of us……some, not so much….LOL
I am very glad that He chose John to write it, for I definitely would have messed it up for sure! ha! LOL
Hello Alienated, Dru and all,
In regards to the "One taken, one left" parable, you are exactly right-on with this interpretation. I have never personally interpreted this parable as representing the catching away, because Scripture has those who are being "taken" as being compared with the wicked who were "Taken" away in the flood and therefore, those of the "One taken" group are also the wicked.
As you pointed out, the "One Taken" are synonymous with the parable in Mt.13:37-43 where at the end of the age, Jesus sends his angels out to "First" collect the weeds to be tied into bundles and burned. Those who are left are the righteous, that is, those great tribulation saints that will make it through to the end and are still alive when Jesus returns to set up his millennial kingdom. These are those who will repopulate the earth during the millennium, along with Israel who will be cared for out in the wildernes for that last 3 1/2 years.
Also, you are correct where in Luke 17:37 where Jesus says,
"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."
And the disciples response is: "Where, Lord?" That is where are they going to be taken. And Jesus response is:
"Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."
At the time when Christ returns, the angels will be going throughout the earth to "First" collect the weeds (one's taken) and they will bring them to the valley of Megiddo where all those kings, generals and thier armies will have been gathered together for Armegeddon (Rev.16:13-14). The beast and the false prophet will both be captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive (Rev.19:19-20)and then those kings, generals, their armies and the "One's taken" will be killed by the double-edged sword, which is the word of God, that proceeds from the mouth of Christ (See Eph.6:17).
Those who are killed by the double-edged sword are then eaten by those birds (vultures) that were previously gathered by that angel in Rev.19:17-18, which is called "The Great Supper of God." And it says that, all the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh.
Once that takes place, the angels will then go and gather the "One's left," which is synonymous with Mt.24:30-31. The only differnce with the Matthew account is that the "One Taken" group are not mentioned, only the gathering of the righteous. In fact, many people erroneously interpret Mt.24:30-31 where Jesus sends out his angels to gather his elect as being the catching away. The problem with this is that, angels do not resurrect us, it is the Lord who meets us in the air and takes us back to the Father's house (John 14:1-3). Those that the angels are gathering in Mt.24:30-31 are those who were "left" of the "One take, one left" group.
I think you are grasping the concept of the "elect" vs those who are Christians, but not "Called" to serve and be witnesses for Christ. Not all Christians will be called to die in the fifth seal persecutions, the remainder will be left till the sixth seal, and the Jesus comes on a cloud (Matthew 24:29-31).
Another thing that is causing some confusion is that the fifth seal is supposed to last for the whole duration of the tribulation, but will be cut short. In other words, the question becomes when and why will the Fifth seal be cut short? The answer to when is sometime between the Abomination that causes desolation, and sixth seal being opened which will be the second coming, and marked by signs in the heavens. In other words, Christians will be around for the mark of the beast being forced on people, how long they have to resist it is up to the "elect". The elect are those who are willing to die as Christ died for us.
The "why" part of the question is hard to answer. But if we remember from revalation it is the Lamb of God who opens the seals. They are used by God to discipline the church, to baptise with fire, to strengthen our faith, etc. And then finally to Judge the remainder of the People, (Non Christians). To say, that the four horsemen are in the control of AC, is a mistake, which I have made before as well. (On a different tangent, perhaps the AC will even be resisting these seals as well and be perceived as a saviour)
So anyway, I Got a little side tracked there, I believe the First five seals are to be viewed as God's discipline of the believers. Our being disciplined by God is a way he shows his Love towards us. The final two show his righteous judgement for those who reject the Gospel. That is why the Gospel must be preached to all the world before the judgement can occur, and the fifth seal is where our testimony will do this.
Are you getting a feel for the immensity of God yet? We really know so little of the "why", and "how".
Hi All,
Okay, after Lyndsey had posted her comment regarding the Jews in the field and the blowing of the Shofar to call them to the Temple for prayer, I became curious and went to see if I could find something more about it.
Because to me,that appeared to be sorta the opposite in correlating being"taken" as being a bad thing?
(IE;) You hear the shofar, therefore it is time to "leave" to go worship and spend time with the Lord.
So I keyed into Google, "one taken one left". After seeing the results of 233 million hits, I realized that this might take a bit of time to read through. lol. So I tried refining my search, by prefacing it with Messianic.
That brought the number down to only 190 thousand results. (Whew, luckily I thought of that, cause that was a big help.)
Any way's, though I wasn't able to find exactly what I was looking for in relation to what she had read, I did spend the next 5 hours reading commentary after commentary of what were nothing but differing and opposing view points. Some of which were quite eloquently written with a sound demonstration of what I would refer to, in my opinion, as utilizing proper hermeneutics. Others? Well …. lets just say that I think that there are way too many individuals out there, that believe that "tin-foil" provides all the necessary requirements for a nutritious and satisfying breakfast.
Regarding as to whether or not after spending a significant amount of time in reading all of this, I have come away feeling completely secure with the interpretation that I had posted above earlier? Or with the conformation that was submitted by Don. If I were to be honest, my reply would have to be "no". Quite frankly, I am probably more bewildered than I was when I started this quest.
Though I did find additional scripture that would appear to be supportive of the initial interpretation, such as in the prophecies of Ezekiel 39: verses 4 and 17- 20.
(4) Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured
(17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come ; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
(18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan
(19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
(20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
However, it was in further investigating the definitions of the original Greek words that were utilized, that placed all of this in a state of doubt.
For example, the word that has been translated into English as "taken" is translated from the transliterated Greek word, " Paralambano" Strong's # 3880. The initial definitions of this word are as follows;
(1)to take to,
(2)to take with one's self,
(3)to join to one's self
(4)an associate,
(5)a companion
(6)to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be not to reject,
Whereas the word that has been translated into English as "left" is translated from the transliterated Greek word,"Aphiemi"Strong's # 863.
The initial definitions of this word are as follows;
(1)to send away
(2)to bid going away or depart
(3)of a husband divorcing his wife
(4)to send forth,
(5)yield up,
(6)to expire
(7)to let go,
(8)let alone,
(9)let be to disregard
So, In taking these definitions into consideration, I hope that you can understand, why it is that I currently find myself in a state of confusion.
I am wondering if anyone else is now feeling the same? Perhaps we have simply connected the wrong dots here? (sigh)
Any way's, before heading off on my merry way here to fulfill the required domestic drudgeries of the day, I'll also respond specifically to you here Dru.
Hey bro,I've spent time in all 66 books. I've read through Revelation many times and believed that I had a relatively reliable understanding of it's content, only to to have someone present something altogether different and rock my world. And that my friend has happened at least 4 or 5 times. There has to be a point to where you simply throw your hands up in the air and say "Oy Vey" isn't there? lol.
I find it a fascinating read, but don't pretend to have any of the answers, and will leave that up to those that God has drawn to lay understanding of it in their hearts. (I'll just sponge off of them lol.)
Thankfully, having a complete and accurate academic understanding of the Bible has no relation to our Salvation through Yeshua, or a whole bunch of us would be toast.
BTW, the alienated above was pretty
Blessings to all, and I pray that you have a great day.
Isn't the bible "fun"? I guess that is where the Holy Spirit comes into play. Sometimes I will read something in the Bible 3-4 times and miss the point, and then I will read it again and have the "AHA" moment. Nothing has changed in the way I approach the Bible, But the Spirit intervenes and helps us understand.
As you say salvation is simple, and so is living a Christian life so long as we stay focussed on the cross. And Thank God and his mercy that there will not be an SAT test required for acceptence into heaven!
God bless. Proverbs 3:5,6
Hey Alienated,
If we can figure out a) when the jews were in the field-which season and b) which feasts blow the shofar then we might be able to figure it out….I suspect Feast of Trumpets…although there might be another Feast that blows the shofar…
So which season is it and why is the shofar being blown…:)
Maybe it is just for sabbath-calling everyone to the synagogue….?
Where does it read the elect will die as Christ died for us. Crucifiction?
I think it is beheading for refusing to worship the beast, or take the 666 mark.
The mark of the beast is a "later" trial, coming to those who do not die in the fifth seal. At least i see them as separate events.
I did not say crucifiction, but laying down our lives for others, AKA Martydom. John 15:12FF is a good place to start. I took a "leap of faith" if you will, in saying this pertains to the 5th seal. John 13:34,35 also shows this.
This new commandment given by Christ himself is combined with the other two, Love the lord your god with all your heart…and Love your neighbor as yourself or the ten commandments.
Now I know you know the verses about keeping the commandments with regard to prophecy, so I will not look them up.
I don't mean to net pick dru. I can see you are a good Christian.
Martydom is by beheading for not worshiping the beast, or taking his 666 number. Not lying down our lives for others. There is a differance.
Allow me to explain, because I am very worried for myself. No longer do I believe it is wrong to destroy the life of evil men. This is planet earth, and some men have to be shipped. That is how it is if we want to sleep at night in our beds.
You see, part of me wants to be Martyered refusing to worship the beast, and part of me wants to destroy the men that may come for my kind. I am very torn.
Christ did not say we would go to hell for picking up our weapons, he said we may die as we fight. I have a great desire to die fighting, yet I do not want to be seen by
G-d the Father in Christ's name as being not willing to die for the word of G-d, as an example to others who may be watching when it comes my turn.
Therefore, I net pick. Because, we have to get it right. I do not want to get it wrong.
You have touched my heart leatherneck!
All that I can think of to say to you is that you are who you are because G-d made you that way and for HIS purpose!
IF you are ever in that position(I pray not),I have no doubt that you will KNOW what to do because you love G-d and His Truth is in your heart AND because He is with you, always;
….G-d already knows the choice you will make 🙂
Your sister in Christ
Being Elect, or being a christian and not being chosen to die as a witness, are of no difference, except that one group dies by martydom, while the other is raptured. It doesn't matter the means by which we will enter the Kingdom of God.
There is also nothing wrong with going out with guns a blazin. From what revalation says, we will see our share of war. But we are also called to love our enemies as well. When that witnessing is done, the whole world will hear the Gospel, Many of your "enemies" now may be reached with that message, especially in those lands where the gospel is supressed.
Believe me, when I say there are a lot people out that deserve death. That is what revalation says of the fifth seal, where the souls are crying out for judgement. The answer they are given is wait a little longer, till a number is reached of your brothers.
As for beheading, I know that is part of it, and I think there is a verse in rev. that talks of this. But I do not think this is the only method.
If it is beheading, it is beheading. The point I make is martydom does not equal beheading only. They could throw us in a ditch and bury us alive for believing the word of God, and we will still be Martyrs. In fact, I think I would prefer the beheading?
To me that is not worth arguing about, to you it is relevent, and I will concede your point.
As for the mark of the beast, there are also those that make it through the tribulation while refusing the mark, therefore, not taking the mark does not equal beheading. Will they be hiding out in caves? I do not know. But by resisting the mark, they will not be automatically excluded from the Messianic kingdom. Rev 20:4 talks of beheading, so I concede that point. Read that verse closely, and you will see two groups, those who were beheaded for the testimony, and those who resisted the mark. beheading, and Mark are different groups.
Hi Dru and Leatherneck,
Dru, I was following your dialog and I couldn't help responding to this, though it may seem to be a trivial issue. As You said below:
"Read that verse closely, and you will see two groups, those who were beheaded for the testimony, and those who resisted the mark. beheading, and Mark are different groups."
From Rev.20:4-6, the only group that is being spoken about are the group that was beheaded. This is too easy to prove, so let's look at the verse:
"I saw the souls of those [who had been beheaded] because of [their] testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. [They] had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands."
As you can see in the verse above, those who are in view are those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God.
If you will notice in the verse above, I have put the words [those who were behead] in brackets. I also put the words [their] and [they] in brackets to show that grammer demands that these two words refer back to the original subject, which is [those who were beheaded]. What I am saying is that gramatically speaking, [their] and [they] must refer back to the group that was previously introduced, which are those who were beheaded because their is no other group mentioned in between.
This is how my bible puts it.
4." Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were Those to whom the authority to Judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of THOSE who had been beheaded for the the testimony of Jesus and for the Word of God, AND THOSE who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its markon their foreheads or hands…"
Note the Use of the the word THOSE twice, actually three times. These are clear distinctions, and separations. My McCarthur study bible is in agreement on this division as well in his comments. I will Quote that comment. "20:4 The souls of those who had been beheaded. These are tribulation martyrs (cf 6:9, 18:24, 19:2) The Greek word translated "Beheaded" became a general term for execution, not necessarily a particular method. its mark. see note 13:16, Tribulation martyrs will be executed for refusing the mark of the beast." Note that rev.6:9 points to the fifth seal martyrs, while 13:16 points to the mark of the beast martyrs. The fifth seal martyrdom has been going on for two thousand years now, and encompasses a large group of them. while this martyrdom is increased in tribulation period. The rapture will shorten the time of the execution of those who refuse the mark (see Matthew 24:22).
Hey Dru,
Excuse me for interrupting guys.
I would post it here
but the column is way too thin.
But Dru, check out the King James on this verse, and you will see that it reads different.
Alienated is right, this is too narrow, so I will create a new one at the bottom of the page.
The means by which it occurs is irrelavent, but beheading is likely!
I am not sure what I am seeing with it? I don't know why I looked for this other then God was impressing it upon me. I started asking Marianne about it maybe 5-6 weeks ago? But I don't know why?
Did he want us to know that our time would be know more then 3 1/2 years. We know that by scripture, was it for people to know when the Jews are hidden that they paid their time.
The rail box car thing is just another piece of crazy. Lyndsey
Williams talk show you should listen to. I just if I understand right he was threatened to keep his mouth shut.
I keep reading on the site that a lot of people thinking we aren't going to to through the tribulation but unless God give us a place I don't think that is possible. I put together many scriptures from Revelations about the Gentiles suffering as saints.
Is it that we will over come the plaqcues and every thing for the first 3 1/2 years and then the last 3 1/2 when the satan comes from the bottomless pit that we will be overcome. I feel
like there is a lot we all are not comprehending? I noticed Dru ask Marianne a question and she basically said she is still looking at it. This is the deepest of the Bible and it is our time we must understand.
What do you make of the research about the Jews and the Holocaust?
Hope you have a Happy Mothers Day, God bless you.
Hi Pattie,
"What do you make of the research about the Jews and the Holocaust?"
To be honest, my heart and mind are trying to comprehend why my heavenly Father allowed this to happen and spoke of it in the scriptures as you posted above. I never knew that this had been prophesied as their punishment.
I have read recently where some jews were saved and I can see His hand on this…and I know I am not the first person to question why….ie Job….
I am shaken at this moment and I don't know what else to say at this point.
I do hope that the 3.5 year holocaust is the only tribulation the jews will ever know.
Never again! Never forget!
The more I think about it. These rail cars look a lot like the tri-level boxcars used to move automobiles. Back a couple of years ago the US was putting together a contract for the "Cherry" automobile made in China. Things kind of fell apart with the deal under President Obama, maybe he finalized the agreement.
I think what they are seeing are the tie down brackets. The tie downs are straps that go on the axles at 4 points and the straps go through the type of thing that they may think of as a shackle.
But the thing for cutting off someone's head we can't figure out.
It sounds like the deal for moving the cherry auto is finished.
Maybe someone added the other part about the modern guillotine.
Gunderson does do the work for the automobile industry.
This really makes wonder was Fema's name attached to the government or just the goverment. You have to remember that the President took oversite of Chrysler and in doing so purchasing documents of that dollar amount would have to be issued by him.
Chrysler and her transport groups were the ones scheduled to handle the cherry. I know this much for a fact.
My husband and I can't figure out what they are calling a modern guillotine. We are auditors for the auto. industry both foreign and domestic.
The other part not making since is Gunderson's wife surely knows he does the work on the cars??
I don't know if it helps. If I saw the inside I could tell you if it is typical auto boxcars.
Also I have clients in the rail and container business. The USA and Canada was in desperate need for more rail cars and containers. When they couldn't be bought they sought out for used boxcars.
They do a lot of work out of that port and most of the other USA and ports around the world. When business is as it is now catch up work is done. Fixing welds, maintenance and so forth all of the places mentioned are by ports but Montana. But if Gunderson is there then that is most likely the explanation.
I think the FEMA purchase orders has scared everyone to death.
Hope this helps. If you find anyone who has an inside photo of the boxcar I could tell you if it isn't just the rigging for moving product around the world by railroad tracks and ocean.
Thank you for that explanation. I have to remember that G-d doesn't want us to be afraid and so paniced we have to grab our paper bag everytime we turn on the news! LOL
You had mentioned the three and half years of punishment of jews under Hitler, and I said wasn't holocaust 7 years. In a way, we were both right, But off a little. Jan. 30,1939 was when plan for jewish "problem" was annonced by hitler. It was 2290 days to V.E. day, may 8th, 1945, or 6.361 jewish years. Also Jan. 20,1942 was date of Wannsee conference where killings began enmasse. to V.E. Day was 1204 days, Or 3.34 jewish years. Obviously, your number is alittle closer. I am sure the plans were derived earlier than the announcements.
Also revalation 12:14-16 I have always felt as if this was possibly describing Hitler and the holocaust. With wings of the great eagle being the United states.
Yes it is very nice to meet you Don
I am going to have to continue to go over what you are saying because I am still having problems with it clicking.
I was raised with the belief that we were going through the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation. My current pastor agrees with you thinking that we wont.
Please tell me how these scriptures fit in and maybe it will help my understanding. Please don't think I am being negative or arguing, Revelations is very deep.
If you tell people they aren't going through tribulation and then they do. How will they be prepared and ready, which usually takes a mind set when it is something that doesn't go down easily, right?
Revelations: 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. In Daniel 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
Now in Daniel 7:25 he will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws.
The saints will be handed over to him for a time. time and half a time.(this maybe speaking of the Holocaust)
Revelations 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony,
the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
Revelations 11:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make was against the rider on the horse and his army. (he and those following him
even think they can over come Jesus)
Ezekiel 33:12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former
Revelations 2:10 do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of live.
Revelation 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the sabbath.
Joel 2:31 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Help my understanding; usually when God points something to me like this there is Logos and Rhema. I have had somewhere around
20 prophetic dreams about end time. I feel from God that we are moving to a time of something coming. Not that I am afraid but I want to be ready. We should all seek wisdom regarding such
times and I am sure you would agree.
God bless Pattie
Hello again Pattie,
Q: "If you tell people they aren't going through tribulation and then they do. How will they be prepared and ready, which usually takes a mind set when it is something that doesn't go down easily, right?
A: We as believers in Christ should always be ready to be persecuted and be put to death for his name sake and the gospel regardless of when things take place. We are called to this just as the fist Christian's were, so we should always be praying that God would give us a spirit that would not love life so much as to shrink away from death, keeping the testimony of Jesus and the gospel.
Q: "Revelations: 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. In Daniel 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
A: In the book of Revelation, there are clues thoughout. One of thesee cluses is the fact that from chapter 1 thru the very last word of chapter 3 the Greek word "Ekklesia" translated "Church(s)" is used and then it is never used again until chapter 22:16 which is outside the narrative. After that, the next word used to describe a believer is the Greek word "Hagios" translated "Saint." When we read in the gospels and other letters, both the words church and saint are used interchanably, but not so here. From chapter 1 through the end of chapter 3 you will only find the word "Church" used, then aferward, only the word "Saint." In my opinion, the fact that the word church is never used again after the end of chapter 3 tells me that the church is gone and which would put us off the earth before the 1st seal is opened.
So, who are the saints that are spoken of in the verse? These are those great tribulation saints that John was shown a vision of in Rev.7:9-17. These saints are not the church, for we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God and therefore, we cannot be on the earth during the time when God is pouring out his wrath. Those saints are people who become saints during that time period. Remember the parable of the ten virgins, Five were wise and brought oil with them and the five were foolish and ran out of oil? Then those foolish while they are on their way to go buy oil, the bridegroom came and the five who were wise and had oil went into the wedding banquet with the bridegroom. When the five foolish ones returned it was too late, for the doors were already shut. It may be that those five foolish are the one's who are going to be the saints during the time when God's wrath is poured out and that because they weren't ready when Jesus came . As I have said before, Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour out his wrath upon it. There is a difference between tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, opposed to God's direct wrath which is what is going be happening during that last seven years, wrath!
Q: "Revelations 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony,
the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them"
A: These who the verse is speaking about are the two witnesses of God who will prophecy (Ibid) from the beginning of the seven years up until the middle of the seven. No one will be able to kill these two witnesses until the middle of the seven years where just prior to that, the beast is let out of the Abyss. This is the beast who once was and now is not and who is not to be confused with Satan, as they are two different fallen angels/demons. This beast is let out of the Abyss at the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe and is identified as the angel of the Abyss whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in the Greek Apollyon, both meaning "destroyer." (Rev.9:1-11). He is the king of those demonic beings who are let out of the Abyss and are commanded to torment men with stings like scorpions. Satan on the other hand, still has acces to heaven accusing the saints before God day and night until he and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth (Rev.12:10). When this happens Satan gives his power, throne and great authority to that beast that comes up out of the Abyss (Rev.13:2)
Q: "Revelations 11:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make was against the rider on the horse and his army. (he and those following him even think they can over come Jesus)
A: This of course is John's vision of Jesus returning to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom. In Rev.16:12-14 those three evil spirits that come out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet that look like frogs, go throughout the earth and gather together the kings of the whole world for the great day of God Almighty, the battle of Armegeddon. The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and the kings, generals and all the armies and the people who will have been brought by the angels (one taken) will be killed by that double-edged sword that comes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, Jesus Christ.
Q: "Ezekiel 33:12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former
A: I don't know exactly the purpose for posting this verse. What is your concern regarding this?
Q: "Revelations 2:10 do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of live."
A: This is of course the letter to the church of Smyrna. Although the letters to the churches represent the entire church period, here, I believe the information is regarding something that may have been going on with the literal church of Smyrna of that time, otherwise, there is no way to tie in to what is being said to the future church. The saints during the great tribulation are not going to suffer ten days, but will be killed by beheading because they will not worship the beast or his image or receive his mark (Rev.20:4-6)
Q: "Revelation 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."
A: The verse above is once again speaking about those great tribulation saints of whom Satan will be accusing before God day and night prior to his being thrown down with his angels and restricted to the earth as revealed in Rev.12:7-9,13:7. For, after Satan gives his power and authority to the beast, the beast will make war against the saints and conquer them for that last 3 1/2 years until Jesus returns. These are the Elect that Jesus refers to in the following verse when he says: "except those days were shortened, no one would survive, but for the elects sake those days will be shortened" (Mt.24:22). They are also the saints referred to in this verse as well: "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her off-spring–those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Now, some would say, "No, the off-spring is speaking of the Jews, but that would not be true because, notice that they are those who keep the testimony of Jesus. Jew's don't hold to the testimony of Jesus, for nation Israel has not yet believed in him. believers in Christ do. These are the saints.
Q: "Matthew 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the sabbath."
A: Jesus is speaking about when that abomination of desolation is set up in the temple, which is that image of the first beast which the false prophet causes the inhabitants of the earth to make in honor of the beast ( Dan.9:27, Mt.24:15,Rev.13:14-15). The setting up of this image is what causes the desolation of Jerusalem, that is, their fleeing out into the wilderness. In speaking of this, Jesus knew that the jew's would still be clinging to the covenant of the law, which is why he says, pray that your flight will not take place in the winter or on the Sabbath. In the winter, because of the obvious, it's cold. On the Sabbath, because nothing would be opened because no work is allowed be done on the Sabbath according to the law and therefore, there would be no way to escape, except on foot. But obviously it doesn't happen on the Sabbath for Rev.12:14 tells us that the woman is given two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she will be taken care of for a time (1 year), times (2 years) and a half a time (6 months) total = 3 1/2 years.
Q: "I feel from God that we are moving to a time of something coming."
A: You sure got that right Pattie! The evidence of the end times is all around us. I personally don't believe that the seals have been opened yet and that because I believe that the 1st seal/white horse is that beast who is riding a counterfeit of the one the Jesus rides in Rev.19:11. We should all be like the good man of the house watching so that the thief can't break in and take catch us by suprise. My stand is, if we are resurrected and caught up prior to the seals being opened, then let's be ready. If the church is somehow to go through the wrath of God, then let's be ready. Our faith should not be based in the interpretation of end-time events, but on the shed blood of Christ.
"because I believe that the 1st seal/white horse is that beast who is riding a counterfeit of the one the Jesus rides"
Make your mind up,before you said the the four horses were not the beast but the wrath of God.
I am glad to hear it. You are right between the TV and the things we dig up wanting to be on top of everything it can make it like a nightmare on elm street.
But I am waiting to hear back from Don who insist we aren't going through tribulation and wouldn't that be fabulous. I hope he is able to convince me.
me too! 🙂
What doesn't make sense to me about the pre trib theory is that they believe the Holy Spirit will be removed along with the elect.
If that is the case, then how is anyone going to be "saved" if the HS is not here to bear witness to who Jesus Christ is?
How will they be able to even understand the scriptures unless the HS is with them to help them?
I was raised in a baptist church and under the pre trib theory and even with that, the pastor only spoke of 1 return (the second coming)-when Jesus came to get us.
Now that I am 43, I am hearing of Jesus' return being 3x…1) birth 2) rapture 3) armegeddon.
I am hoping for an early rescue mission so that we don't have to go through this, but I also want to be prepared.
I don't recall Jesus ever saying He would be coming back twice…just once and that was AFTER the tribulation (Matthew 24).
If He were coming back twice, then the best time to tell us was in Matthew 24 and after the ascension (angels should've let us in on that at that time). The angels told the disciples that in the same way they saw him leave would be the same way he returned….they never said twice/just ONCE.
That's my 2 cents
If you guys figure it out, let me know 🙂
After reading particular posts throughout this site ( I will not name the person so as not to embarrass), I have to finally say that I am truly having a problem with anyone declaring their "interpretation" as FACT, especially when it comes to Revelation.
G-d makes Himself very VERY very clear as to what happens to anyone who ADDS to and/or TAKES AWAY from HIS WORDS.
***We should always state "it is my understanding" or "this is my opinion".***
NO ONE should state their interpretation as FACT. This not only misleads others who are still studying but also takes away from what G-d has written.
Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Revelation 22:19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Proverbs 30:6Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
You are right He only comes back once but this single event is recorded three times in REV. Seal 6 trumpet 6 and at the sickle. But that is just what the bible says. I have no opinion on the matter.
Looking for the Beast? Take a look at this video.Find the scientist who build the HARP and you find the evil beast .This video is in Spanish but it can be translated into English .
Please watch it.
First you have to know who the saints are. Biblically speaking the saints are those that followed in the footsteps of the Christ and became healers who have become holy. When was the first persecution of the Angels of ELOHIM? When the Church persecuted and murdered the healers and called them witches.
Later in the book of Revelation, it associates the saints with the false prophet (Islam) and in the book of Daniel they are associated with Greece, the USA and Persia. Many wonderful healing mystics were murdered. The Copts, the Native Indians. Shamans and the Sufi's etc. However, the Ancient of Days computes with the teaching of Chris that these days will shortened for the sake of God's elect who are the mystics and healers.
In ancient days in Persia there were dye shops called 'Shop of Christ'. They dyed the different fabrics for colour healing, like the colour healing that was done in Egypt in ancient healing temples. In the bible God asks where is the healing?
Many of the Desert Fathers who took an important role in developing Eastern Christianity knew there was a better way than martyrdom. Learn about the Copts
I can tell you this that martydom is a failed initiation on the rite of passage home to God.
God did not ask you to die for him. He asks you to live for him. Christ told you that his God was the God of the living not the dead.
I think this curse thing is wrong thinking. How can God's children who have a hedge be cursed?
Are you born again? Then how can you be under a curse? That is the devil telling you that in my opinion.
If you are born again then you are free under the new law, as Paul said let us not go backwards. Jesus set us free from the
curse he paid it all for the believer.
If Jesus did it all on the cross then is there anything that was not covered for you freedom. Follow what I am saying; 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
Matthew 25:41 "then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
So if you are in liberty can you be cursed, how? I think the problem is some ministers fell under a vain imagination and one started preaching it and everyone else started spreading it.
When I lived in the world and worked for corporate America we would say tell a story to a few people and you can make it word? I am not proud that I ever had a thought like that or listened to it, as anything but the truth is a lie.
The devil plants a few words in our mind and off it goes and it will keep on going if you don't get it stopped. Now if you are in the furnace of testing it is another story. But the response should always be the same. To me an example of the furnace was Job.
I think that is story. Does it make sense? And if God turns us over to the Devil to put us under the fire to stop us from believing lies, then he knows it will either make us bear good fruit or we should be cut down and burned up with the world? Naturally the enemy hates all of Gods' children is my belief and if he can put us under the fire and sift us well I think he will.
So how do you correct it like with all things when he comes with lies, tell him the Lord God rebuke him, tell him the words or the thoughts he is sending is a lie. God listens to all things and if we believed him at all God knows, repent and keep your faith in God for his protection. The word says repent from the thought and move on you are in liberty, the old law can't take it away.
Listen to word the Father tells us:
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10-11
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that
Deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and to be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
1 Kings 22:22
"By what means?" the LORD asked. "'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets, he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. Go and do it.'
Romans 1:28-29
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, god-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil;
2 Timothy 3:1-2-3-4-5
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
Well it is so scary when you hear some of these things and not all have to be true. Just
Listening to the devil tells us one lie and we not know better signals trouble. Does the word say that the Lord has a hedge about us? Sure it does. There was Job minding his own business but the devil wanted to sift him and god knew that Job would not fail and
That it would be a testament to him and to his saints that serve him. We could not serve
Him and love him we do but that he first unconditionally loved us, right.
Look I am not an expert, I am willing to share what I know and hope that everyone else here does the same. Because these words are scary to me, and on top of that if we don't
Know Revelations and God expects us to gain knowledge as we go is what I think.
Be blessed and if you disagree or have other thought on it let me know what you think.
You have a good thought! I would have never thought about qualifying things more then we do, especially since people
are coming her and learning. But actually that could be more
harmful. Because all we know is what we search in the scriptures
and some times we could miss a scripture that ties something
together that is a big concern for me.
I sure don't want God mad at me. I want him to be pleased with me.
Did I do that? If I did please for give me and let me know so
I can repent.
Oh no…it wasn't you Pattie. It was someone else but I didn't want to give names.
I think I have done it too. I see something and have an "aha" moment and I run with it! LOL
I need to take my own advice!
I think as long as we put "it is my understanding/my opinion" then we should be ok! 🙂
The scriptures are so VAST and I am STILL learning stuff….It would take a 1000 years to go thru it!
I am on another site and it really does crack me up how 1 verse can have so many different meanings to so many different people!
On this other site, this one guy will swear that Jesus is the one doing the abomination that cause desolation!! SIGH….it is borderline comical!
When I finally meet Jesus, I will have many questions and one of them is this "in a NUTSHELL, tell us what you REALLY meant"! and I hope he gives me a laptop so that I can tell everyone "thus saith the LORD" ha! lol
This response was to your input at the global infitada, sorry went to deal with the puppy or something. When I came back I lost my place, hope I didn't confuse you.
Let us take another shot.
Q: "If you tell people they aren't going through tribulation and then they do. How will they be prepared and ready, which usually takes a mindset when it is something that doesn't go down easily, right?
A: We as believers in Christ should always be ready to be persecuted and be put to death for his namesake and the gospel regardless of when things take place. We are called to this just as the fist Christian's were, so we should always be praying that God would give us a spirit that would not love life so much as to shrink away from death, keeping the testimony of Jesus and the gospel.
John 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'
If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will
obey yours also.
So I am not at odds with your response, it is my concern. We should be ready because of what Jesus said and your answer. It is one of those things that lead to the wondering of
Pre-trip—med trib—or trib.
Q: "Revelations: 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. In Daniel 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
A: In the book of Revelation, there are clues throughout. One of these clues is the fact that from chapter 1 thru the very last word of chapter 3 the Greek word "Ekklesia" translated "Church(s)" is used and then it is never used again until chapter 22:16 which is outside the narrative. After that, the next word used to describe a believer is the Greek word "Hagios" translated "Saint." When we read in the gospels and other letters, both the words church and saint are used interchanably, but not so here. From chapter 1 through the end of chapter 3 you will only find the word "Church" used, then aferward, only the word "Saint." In my opinion, the fact that the word church is never used again after the end of chapter 3 tells me that the church is gone and which would put us off the earth before the 1st seal is opened.
So, who are the saints that are spoken of in the verse? These are those great tribulation saints that John was shown a vision of in Rev.7: 9-17. These saints are not the church, for we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God and therefore, we cannot be on the earth during the time when God is pouring out his wrath. Those saints are people who become saints during that time period. Remember the parable of the ten virgins, five were wise and brought oil with them and the five were foolish and ran out of oil? Then those foolish while they are on their way to go buy oil, the bridegroom came and the five who were wise and had oil went into the wedding banquet with the bridegroom. When the five foolish ones returned it was too late, for the doors were already shut. It may be that those five foolish are the one's who are going to be the saints during the time when God's wrath is poured out and that because they weren't ready when Jesus came. As I have said before, Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour out his wrath upon it. There is a difference between tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, opposed to God's direct wrath which is what is going be happening during that last seven years, wrath!
Comment: I agree that the word Ekklesia means church or called out group or assemblies congregation. Now are we judged worthy as a church or assembly or congregation? Jesus appears to take the bride in 19:6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Please review these scriptures which are clearly before Jesus appears to take his bride. Am I missing something? There are others that refer to the suffering, but a handful should let us work through it, I hope.
#1 Revelations 17:6-I saw that the woman was drunken with the blood of saints, and with the blood of martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.#2 Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, (which came) with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. (This is at the time of trumpets and peals of thunder?)#3 Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. #4 Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here (are) they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (Why does it say the saints need to be patient, this is the same thing said to the dead with the blood under the altar. To me this has to be the now saints or at this time.)#5 Revelations 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (This is when the bride is being dressed; she just got to Heaven, right?)#6 Revelations 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. (These are the saints already dead)#7 Revelations 18:20 Rejoice over her, (thou) heaven, and (ye) holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.#8 Revelations 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.#9 Revelations 5:08 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four (and) twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.#10 Revelations 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer (it) with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which was before the throne.#11 Revelations 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.#12 Revelations 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.#13 Revelations 22:21 the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ (be) with you all. Amen.#14 Revelations 15:03 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous (are) they works, Lord God Almighty; just and true (are) thy ways, thou King of saints.#15 Revelations 20:08 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom (is) as the sand of the sea.#16 Revelations 12:06 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she (and) threescore days.Revelations 13 and 14 deals with the Mark of the Beast. Revelations 7:3, 14:1, 22:4Deals with the seal of God in the Saints foreheads. If they were not ready to go whereEver it is that you think we went then why these scriptures? Revelations 9:4 says: And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. How can this not be the now saints? I have heard some say it is the saints that were beheaded and this doesn't make sense to me either. Because the Bride doesn't go to Heaven until Chapter 19. "Revelations 11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony,the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them"A: These who the verse is speaking about are the two witnesses of God who will prophecy (Ibid) from the beginning of the seven years up until the middle of the seven. No one will be able to kill these two witnesses until the middle of the seven years where just prior to that, the beast is let out of the Abyss. This is the beast who once was and now is not and who is not to be confused with Satan, as they are two different fallen angels/demons. This beast is let out of the Abyss at the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe and is identified as the angel of the Abyss whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in the Greek Apollyon, both meaning "destroyer." (Rev.9: 1-11). He is the king of those demonic beings who are let out of the Abyss and are commanded to torment men with stings like scorpions. Satan on the other hand, still has access to heaven accusing the saints before God day and night until he and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth (Rev.12: 10). When this happens Satan gives his power, throne and great authority to that beast that comes up out of the Abyss (Rev.13: 2) Comments: I don't really have any comments on it at this time because of your next response!!
Q: "Revelations 2:10 do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of live."
A: This is of course the letter to the church of Smyrna. Although the letters to the churches represent the entire church period, here, I believe the information is regarding something that may have been going on with the literal church of Smyrna of that time, otherwise, there is no way to tie in to what is being said to the future church. The saints during the great tribulation are not going to suffer ten days, but will be killed by beheading because they will not worship the beast or his image or receive his mark (Rev.20: 4-6)
I don't understand you say the saints are not going through tribulation but then you quote
Revelations 20:4-6 and say they are going to be beheaded because they will not worship the beast. If you head is cut off you don't think you and everyone else there will be in some form of suffering. Maybe not the saint because beheading is more than likely fast.
So are you now saying you agree the Saints will go through the tribulation? Even trying to take out all of the confusion now, it is still confusing.
1 Cor 15:50 "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"
Of course the Saints go through the tribulation (Satan's wrath) and are martyred during it. What they don't go through is God's wrath which is later. But what we have here is "dmcal interpreting scripture" which is a law unto itself.
Hi Mick,
I believe that this forum is set up for all of us to express our views, and for those of us who read them, to then be good Bereans and to search out scripture for the truth.
To simply cast disparaging comments directed to a brother or sister is counter productive and can result in some unfortunate consequences.
(of which I am personally familiar with.)
Could I suggest that instead of simply disagreeing, that you present your point of view with scripture as being evidentiary support.
Remember, we are all trying to figure this out as best as God allows us to, and I believe that He would also like for us as His children, to do it with respect for others.
Hi alienated
Don't worry I am not being that hard. It was just a response to dmcal's comment "This is called Scripture interpreting Scripture. You ought to try it."
It was just a light hearted dig but dmcal knows that.
It is my understanding that the church/elect/saints are the same.
It is my understanding that Beast = Kingdom, not a man, as is explained in Daniel 7
It is my understanding that those sealed are the 144,000 jewish males which are found standing, unharmed, with Jesus on the Mt of Olives in Revelation 14.
In Revelation 14:20, we have the "Harvest"….describing Jesus coming on a cloud with a sickle.
Is this the same cloud mentioned in mark 13:26″At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory…..and Mark 14, Matthew 16, Matthew 24 and Daniel 7 ?
G-d works with at least 2 or 3 witnesses, always.
Scripture explains scripture.
We can't read Revelation as a separate book; we have to read the entire book/BIBLE starting with Genesis in order to understand Revelation by the time we get to it. Because G-d has explained throughout what words and visions mean and represent through His Angels…as we see in Daniel and Ezekiel?
So, the Kingdom claims to be G-d, and sets up an image to be worshiped as G-d? Not a man filled with the spirit of Lucifer?
who are you talking to? LOL I can't find the "source" of where you are replying…
You wrote above mine "It is my understanding the beast = Kingdom not a man."
yeah…I saw in Daniel 7 that the angel was interpreting the Beasts for him and told Daniel that the Beasts were kingdoms.
So if Daniel and Revelation reflect the other then why would we change this interpretation? This would be my thought.
So I am really not sure if the "beast" per se is a "man" but rather a "man" coming out of a "beast" aka "kingdom" (representing a kingdom)….such is what we see in Ezekiel 28, the king of tyre (lebanon).
This is where G-d is talking to satan. G-d refers to him as a "man"….so is this where satan has possessed the "man" to be the AC? Are we to look at Lebanon for the rising AC/Beast?
I suppose you could be correct, but I have always understood Lucifer would give the world a false Christ. The New Age calls forth their god on every full moon, and the symbol for the rebirth of Nimrod is the crescent moon. Islam worships the same false god, they just don't know it. The god Sin, or called the moon god.
When you watch TV, watch for symbols. ATT, Dish, ect…, you will see the crescent. Sometimes, you will see the horns of the bull, with the disk in the middle.
In the movie Superman returns, Superman had the crescent hair on his forehead, and got his power from the Sun. Also, Superman wears a Serpent on his chest. The Serpent in Egypt I can't remember which god had that as their symbol, but Christiany calls Lucifer the serpent, or dragon.
Anyway, sorry for the long windage, but the secular humans, and the pagan humans want a Superman to rule the world without G-d. Just like Nimrod. Lucifer's man on earth.
"In Revelation 14:20, we have the "Harvest"….describing Jesus coming on a cloud with a sickle.
Is this the same cloud mentioned in mark 13:26″
I find it hard to believe that the coming of Jesus in rev 14:20 was preceeded by an earlier coming which was not worth mentioning from rev 12 to rev 14:20. It seems highly likely that the coming of Jesus in rev 14:20 is the same coming of Jesus mentioned in Mark 13:26. And on the same cloud!
Lyndsey, Leatherneck's post is directed to you.
You posted above, "It is my understanding that Beast = Kingdom, not a man, as is explained in Daniel 7"
So leatherneck is posing the question to you, "So, the Kingdom claims to be G-d, and sets up an image to be worshiped as G-d? Not a man filled with the spirit of Lucifer?" Perhaps you'd like to defend your understanding with scripture?
I thought the scripture was already provided "You posted above, "It is my understanding that Beast = Kingdom, not a man, as is explained in Daniel 7"
Daniel 7:16"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17'TEH FOUR GREAT BEASTS ARE FOUR KINDGOMS that will rise from the earth. 18But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.'
Daniel 7:23"He gave me this explanation: 'THE FOURTH BEAST IS A FOURTH KINGDOM that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.a
And I can think of 2 present day "kingdoms" that claims itself as being god and sets up an image?
1) ISLAM and the BLACK STONE and 2) the Vatican with their Pope (vicar of christ)
In EZEKIEL 28, we have G-d talking to satan who is referred to as a "man" which may imply that he has "possessed" and taken on the form of the "Anti-christ" and notice he is called the King of Tyre (Lebanon)
In the words of Kitti, how do we "connect the dots"
Hello all,
If I might interject. I believe that It is important when studying the word of God to not to make anything exclusive and that the context must be considered in order to make a determination. For example, the word "Star" may not be representing the same thing as it does in another verse. In Rev.1:20 "Stars" are representing the angels or messengers of the seven seven churches, where in Rev.12:4 they represent fallen angels.
That being said, in Daniel 7, there are four beasts, each representing the succession of the major world ruling kingdoms, Lion = Babylon, Bear = Medo/Persia, Leopard = Greece and the fourth beast with large iron teeth = Rome.
We should not make the word "Beast" exlcusive as referring to a kingdom. In Rev.13:2, we are told that the beast who comes up out of the sea resembles a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear, and a mouth like that of a lion. These beasts mentioned here are in related to the beasts mentioned in Daniel 7. So, the meaning of this is that, this beast/kingdom that comes up out of the sea, is that fourth beast because it is the only one missing from the list in Daniel. And this fourth kingdom will have some of the characteristics of the other three kingdoms, because it resembles a leopard (Greece), has the feet of a bear (Medo/Persia) and a mouth like a lion (Babylon).
As I said, we should not conclude anything as being exclusive, for not only does the word beast here in Rev.13 represent that fourth kingdom, but it also represents the king that will rule that kingdom, who is called by a couple different designations. In Daniel he is called "The Ruler," Paul called him the "Man of Lawlessness and Son of destruction, John called him "The antichrist." These are all names for the same person who will come on the world scene in that last seven years.
I said earlier that we should read the context of the verse to make a determination. That being said, as we read on regarding this beast, the context changes from speaking of the beast as a kingdom to referring to the beast as an individual or a person. For example this is what Paul had to about this beast:
"The coming of the lawless one willl be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are parishing."
(2 Thes.2:9-10)
Now, in regards to the verses above we have something that we can relate to the beast as being the man of lawlessness and an actual person by reading the same information found in Rev.13:13:
"And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men."
What links the man of lawlessness of
2 Thes.2:9-10 with the beast in Revelation are the signs, miracles and wonders that the second beast (false prophet) performs on behalf of that first beast. By this we can deduce that the man of lawlessness is just another designation for the beast in revelation.
As was stated ealier, we can define something based on the context as seen in the following verse:
"He opened [his] mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. [He] was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And [he] was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will woship [the beast]–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." (Rev.13:5-8)
In the verse above, notice the references to the beast as a "He." [He] opened his mouth, [he] was given power to make war agaist the saints, [he] was given authority over every tribe, etc. The context shows that an individual is in view here and not a kingdom. Here is another example of the beast being referred to as an individual or entity:
"Now when they have finished their testimony, [the beast] that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them." (Rev.11:7)
At the middle of that seven year period, we are told that the beast that comes up out of the Abyss will kill the two witnesses of God at the end of their 3 1/2 years of prophecy. It is very apparent in the context of this verse that a kingdom is not in view here, but an individual entity and that because of the reference of him coming up out of the Abyss. Revelation even tells us when this beast comes up out of the Abyss as seen in the verse below:
"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon." (Rev.9:11)
This beast is identified as a the angel of the Abyss (fallen) and is the king of those other demonic beings that come out of the Abyss along with the beast at the 5th trumpet. And if you are still not convinced that the beast here is an individual, anyone would be hardpressed to define the beast in the following verses as a kingdom opposed to an individual:
"Then I saw the [beast] and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the [beast] was captured , and with [him] the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had receive the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The [two] of [them] were thrown [alive] into the fiery lake of burning sulfur."(Rev.19:19-20)
First of all, notice that the beast is being presented as an individual in relation with the kings of the earth. Notice also that both the beast and the false prophet who performed the miraculous signs are both captured, which would infer two individuals opposed to a kingdom. And next, the creme de la creme, both the beast and the false prophet are thrown [alive] into the lake of fire. In the verse above, the beast and the false prophet are refered to as
"The two of them," as specifing two individuals. The other issue to notice and a very important one at that, is that both the beast and the false prophet are thrown [ALIVE] into the lake of fire, which would be in reference to two living beings and not in regards to a kingdom.
And just to cement in that these are two individuals, see the following:
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. [They] will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev.20:10)
Again, in the verse above, both the beast and the false prophet are spoken of in regards to individuals who will be tormented for ever and ever. The context also shows Satan as an individual in relation to the other two individuals, which are the beast and the false prophet all being in the lake of fire.
To recap, the beginning of Chapter 13 is speaking of the beast in regards to that last kingdom, which has the characteristics of the previous kingdoms, Babylon, Medo/Persia and Greece, with the majority of the references thereafter speaking in regards to the beast as an individual, the ruler of that last day kingdom.
I pray that this sheds some light on this subject.
And so the "beast" is NOT connected to a kingdom? They are just wandering around aimlessly…..hmmmmm
The beast is both a kingdom and a man. Think Of Paul's analogy for the body of Christ, aka the church. Christ is the head, while believers are the body. Antichrist is the head, while the "believers" are the body, all making the beast. Just a thought. AC likes to impersonate the real deal.
Which Beast are you talkinh about? If it is the seven haeds and ten horned beast. Seven heads are the mountains (nations) ten horns are the kings.
And dmcal why don't you address the question of Jesus saying in Matthew and Mark that the second coming of the son of man is AFTER the Fall of the antichrist and subsequent tribulation and that your interpretation is wrong!
Because as dmcal has already explained above, he doesn't understand why there are several mentions of Christs return in Revelation.
A must see for those trying to figure this out! 🙂
Excellent post. James G should watch this. 😉
🙂 incredible!
Mark Biltz seems to have done his homework on these Feasts. And to know that Yom Kippur is when they wear WHITE completely revealed what is mentioned in Revelation.
Rev 6:11Then each of them was given a white robe (Yom Kippur), and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Rev 7 The Great Multitude in White Robes (Yom Kippur)
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes…
……13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple….
Zephaniah 1
The Great Day of the Lord
14"The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter,
the shouting of the warrior there.
15That day will be a day of wrath,
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness,
16 A DAY OF TRUMPET AND BATTLE CRY (Feast of Trumpets)
I owe responses back to different people. Lyndsey you know that is fine. I have not responsed to my emails as my husband passed out and stop breathing for a period Tuesday night and I had to get paramedics.
Praise God today he came off the vent. and the heart doctor says he doesn't think what the Drs. was telling me will be so. The power of prayer and testimony to the goodness of Jesus, oh come and taste that is all I can say.
Be blessed as the redeemers believe, The Lord said if the enemy could wear out the saints at this time he would. Be patient and endure. Send out love to everyone you communicate with because the roaring lion is seeking whom he may devour by what ever device. Planting thoughts that are not ours seem to be on the top of the list these days.
A special thanks to everyone who responded to questions I had or comments, maybe tomorrow I can read and get back.
PS. I am drained pleased remember us in your prayers,
Absolutely Pattie! You have my prayer support!
My prayers are with you as well.
Very sorry to hear about your husband and you know that we will all keep him and you in prayer.
slow night….did everyone get raptured? LOL
Hello Dru,
I believe that the problem is in the wording of the version you are reading, but even so, those who beheaded are the ones who are in view from verse 4-6. The word [And] does not constitue another group people, espesially when none is mentioned. And since there is no other group introduced besides those who were beheaded, the word [And] must refer back to that as in [also], as in having, Being beheaded for their testimony for Jesus and the word of God [And) or [Also] they did not worship the beast or his image and had not received his mark. The point is, you can't use the words [And] to represent another group because there isn't one mention. I would be grammitically incorrect.
To paraphrase, Those who were beheaded were those who had the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and the other reasons that they were beheaded was because they would not worship the beast or his or receive his mark on their foreheads or their hands. These who were beheaded are the ones who come to live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years. Those who were beheaded is what the verses 4-6 is in reference to. You can't just use the word [And] to infer a new group when none is mentioned. According to that logic and your version, I could include 3 or 4 new groups into that verse by the use of the word [And]. I suggest looking at some of the other version, because if you are using the KJV, that can be confusing. We have much better translations today and based on better translators and more information from the most ancient copies. Since the only group mentioned are those who were beheaded, everytime the word [And] and [They] or [Their] must refer back to those who were first mentioned.
I suggest going to this site where you can look at the same verse with all the different translation right next to each other in order to see how each one phrases it: http://biblos.com/
One you go there, click on the "Parallel" tab and then in the top left corner select your book, chapter and verse. This will allow you to compare different versions at the same time. I promise you, those who are beheaded are the only ones in view.
As to your narrow comment above, I will respectfully disagree. All I will say is look up the greek, and you will see the name Death can also be interpreted as pestilence, and in fact this is the word that Jesus used in his olivet prophecy. I will stick with my interpretation that it does not mean 25% of the earths population will be killed. We shall see who has got it right soon!
BTW Getting defensive is a sign of weekness. I am not trying to attack your views, only to expand them. How we see end times does not determine our status in the Kingdom. It should be done to prepare us for the day of the Lord. Exploring all options and interpretations is the best way to do that, Just in case God threw a curve ball in there to befuddle Satan, Like he threw one during the first coming.
Don and Alienated
Sorry my mistake, it refers to four groups, not just the three. I looked on a site with extensive commentary, and translation comparisons.
1. Those who are judges. (an undefined group)
The souls of:
2. those who died by the axe for their testimony…
3. those whose faith stayed true to the word of God…
4. those who did not receive the mark or worship the beast.
That is from the greek directly. I believe it was from the Darby commentary.
Dru! You have added new groups into this verse without them being introduced and that by the use of the word "And." This is rediculous to say the least and that because this is an error in grammer and sentence structure. Allow me to try and explain it this way:
"I saw [Don's] soul that had been beheaded because of [his] testimony for Jesus and because of the world of God. [He] had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on [his] forehead or [his] hand. [He] came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Now, is the verse above referring to Don alone or are their other groups of people involved? All I did was replace "the beheaded" with my own name. The example verse above is speaking only about Don. Every word that you see in brackets in the verse above is referring back to Don and that because he was the only one introduced in the beginning of the verse.
Now let's try it this way:
"They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands."
Now, in reading the verse above by itself, how can you determine who the "They" are? You can't know the answer to that because the first part of the verse is missing which introduced those who had been beheaded which are the "They" that is being spoken of. The word "They" in the beginning of the sentence must refer back to who was originally introduced, those being the souls that were beheaded and therefore, not only were they beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God, but they were also beheaded because they would not worship the beast or his image and had not received his mark in their foreheads or hands. You can't introduce a new group into the verse simply because the word "And" is used. It would be grammatically incorrect.
The only group that is in view here are those who were beheaded and the reasons why they were beheaded is given in the verse. Those who were beheaded are also the same group that come to life and reign with Christ a thousand years.
Those that are listed below from your post all belong to the same beheaded group, which are those who were introduced in the beginning of verse 4.
The souls of:
2. those who died by the axe for their testimony… (those beheaded)
3. those whose faith stayed true to the word of God. (those beheaded)
4. those who did not receive the mark or worship the beast. (those beheaded)
You my friend would drive an Enlish teacher to an early retirement.
I see your point, but that verse can also be seen as a list of groups. You are implying that those who stayed true to the word of God were beheaded, and those who did not receive the mark were beheaded. I know many people who stayed true to the word of God and died a natural death, are they excluded?
What you are doing is stretching one word and making it reach past two "ANDS".
For example: Don went to the zoo to see the animals, there was a polar bear that was white and a bear and two monkeys" Does this mean that the bear and the two monkeys were white? That would be an illogical assumption to make. Is there a possibility that they are all white? yes. I think I would rather stick to the logical answer versus the improbable possibility.
You would drive a philosophy teacher crazy! Happy trails
Rat's, it sounds like I just might have missed a trip to a zoo? I love zoo's. Especially the exhibts with the white monkeys. 🙂
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Dru, with all due respect, I am not being defensive, but I am amazed at your conclusion to this because it is not a matter of iterpretation of any of the words, but it is a matter of simple sentence structure and the rules regarding it. It tells me that you have an issue with the English language. My purpose was to bring this to your attention, but now I am teaching English and I don't wish to do that. So, you can believe that there as many groups in Rev.20:4-6 as you like. I'm just suprised that no one else supported what I was trying to get across.
What we are arguing about here is whether we can say that all the people in this mention were beheaded, In other words, you applied beheading to all parts of the statement. What I am saying, is that the beheading refers to the first group of people, not the rest. Now I accept your possible scenario that it could refer to all possibilities, but I say that it does not necessitate it.
In other words, there are plenty of people who stood up to the temptation to pervert the word of God by joining the catholic church. Many of them were martyred, and many of them lived to see old age. Does that exclude them. All of them never had the chance to resist the mark of the beast. Does that exclude them. If so, then even some of the apostles, John included, who lived a long life and were not martyred are excluded. What in fact you are saying, is that Don, and all who want to be in this single group need to go out and give their witness, stand up for the word of God, and reject the mark of the beast in order to be included in this single group of yours. That would leave only a handful of people to be judged. I dare say it makes no sense to me at all. Again If people are beheaded for giving their testimony during the time of the fifth seal, then they will not be around to deny the mark of the beast, therefore they will not qualify for your scenario.
Let me put it in logic terms for you.
If inclusion equals witness, hold faith, and resist mark. and witness leads to death, and precedes in time resisting the mark, then no one could possibly accomplish all three. John the baptist was the first witness to be beheaded, but he cannot possibly have resisted the mark of the beast therefore in your scenario he must be excluded. These must be three different groups, those who bore witness and were beheaded, those who held to the Gospel, which could or could not have been beheaded, and those who resist the mark of the beast, but could or could not have been beheaded.
In other words Don, you could not do all three things mentioned in the verse, Don doe A,B, or C not Don did A,B, and C.
In conclusion, though your statement makes linguistic sense, it does not make logical sense when interpreting these events, because it does not include the time element inthem, in other words, you are saying after you are beheaded for fifth seal act, you are then going to resist the mark of the beast. Its hard to do anything if you ain't got a head. (unless your a chicken or something)
BTW I used "Ain't" just to show my "hatred" for the english language.
Them are mighty big words you got there cuzzin dru! I reckon we weren't learned that much in the early years….LOL
Yo no Hablo Ingles.
Does typing in tongues count?
funny funny man! LOL 🙂
You brought up a good point Dru when you said,
"John the baptist was the first witness to be beheaded, but he cannot possibly have resisted the mark of the beast therefore in your scenario he must be excluded."
Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking specifically about those saints during the last 3 1/2 years and not martyrs throughout the entire church period. We know this because they are identified by the fact that they did not worship beast, his image or receive his mark. By specifying this we know that it is in reference to the saints that are here on earth during the time of the beast. So, you are correct in that, John the Baptist would not be included in this group who were beheaded and that because only those who kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who would not worship the beast or his image or receive his mark are those souls who were beheaded during that last 3 1/2 years. These are the same saints spoken of in Rev.13:7 which says:
"He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer the."
The "He" in the verse above is that same beast that those saints would not worship, also spoken of in Rev.20:4-6.
No wonder there is confusion, you are under the impression that the souls of those who were beheaded are believers throughout the entire church period, but they are not. The mention of them being beheaded because they would not worship the beast tells us what time period these saints came from and it is specifically the saints who are here on earth at the time when this beast and his kingdom is present. This is John's vision of those saints who die during the last 3 1/2 years and does not include any other part of the church age.
That still doesn't answer the time question. Beheading is associated with the fifth seal. this begins when the tribulation begins. See Matt.24. So If your beheaded in year number 2, boom! your dead, you cannot refuse the mark of the beast. Logic therefore precludes at least two groups. Those who die during the fifth seal, and those who refuse the mark of the beast.
That does not even consider those who hold to the Gospel.
Now If you look at Matthew 24, you will see that there is an order to events. Fifth seal… Abomination, which kicks off the mark of the beast….Sixth seal, which is preceded by the rapture, and is associated with the Wrath phase. It is the same order we see in revalation 20:4. Fifth seal =beheaded saints for witness, those left (not martyred) hold onto their faith despite persecution. Then the mark of the beast is introduced. whoever is left from the fifth seal must choose to take the mark or reject it. Will some of those holding to the faith during the fifth seal die of natural causes (Famines, earthquakes, car crashes, heartattacks etc)? yes. Most however will live to the mark of the beast. Just looking at this, I see three groups, not all are martyrs, but all pass the tests of their day.
Now I placed the early church in their to illustrate a point to you. I know that you include the first four seals inside the tribulation time frame, whereas I put them as historical or current tests of our faith, Much like the fifth seal is a test of our faith. But we will have to debate that later. Bedside Baptist's bell is ringing.
Here is my two cents again. And I am going to present a 3rd possibility into the mix. (Sure what the heck.)
Revelation 20: 1-6 is translated as the following in the King James;
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up , and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled : and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished . This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Verses 1 through 3 have the angel locking up satan in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. So we know from this, that the final battle has taken place and Yeshua is now establishing His Millenial Kingdom on Earth.
This also means, that the rapture has already taken place as well, therefore is it possible that the beginning part of verse 4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:" could then be referring to those that had previously been raptured, and that will also rule and reign with Him?
Then as verse 4 continues, a distinctly different group is now being introduced. That being those, "that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;" and because of that demonstrated martyrdom, they then lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years as well.
So these that are referred to in the latter half of verse 4, are simply one distinct group of people, that went through the Great Tribulation, and were raised for their faithfulness to Yeshua in the first resurrection. Which appears to be confirmed within the context of verse 6.
So if anything in my opinion, I can only see the possibility of a maximum of 2 different groups of people here.
I don't know if this helps, or makes things worse? What do you want for two cents? lol.
Ooop's sorry,
What I also wanted to add above was that this second group is comprised of all of the following, though it is still only one group;
Those that happened to be beheaded.
Those that weren't necessarily beheaded, but had not worshipped the beast, neither his image.
Those that neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
Hopefully not all of our brothers and sisters (or those of us who are not possibly raptured) will all be killed for the above testimony.
However the inclusion of the word resurrection may infer that?
Yet I personally believe that some will survive.
For our heroes! (thank you Leatherneck 🙂
I am at the hospital and Thank you all for your prayers, as god is moving and I think the Drs. don't understand unless they are believers. We move to another hospital on Monday to check the heart to ensure he doesn't need a bi-pass or something? The God I serve heals all things not some. So I feel he is going to be fine. Praise God in the name of Jesus Christ he has been good to us.
Trying to read the word in between the confusion, Is the start of the Global infitada tomorrow? How long is it suppose to go?
Regarding Revelations, I found a scripture that says he
will keep us one hour from temptation? Which in Gods' time I think calculates to be 3 1/2 year. But also the Lord said he would cut the 7 year period in half or none would remain.
So is this the scripture that everyone is saying keeps the bride of Christ from Tribulation? I don't understand why it says temptation but in other parts it says tribulation? Or is it to be tribulation for 3 1/2 years and then temptation for 3 1/2 years
of course also the 10 days of tribulation against the saints where
we may be thrown into prison is mentioned a chapter before. But then as i said before God said he would cut the time in half or none would be left (I don't have my Bible in here to put the exact
scripture wording)
I have not had a chance to study DCMAl returned note so forgive me.
But the one scripture is causing concern for me and I don't have anything to check the word in a concordance.
It is odd how you can read something and then you re-read and see something else, or maybe that is just me?
God Bless to everyone, hope all is well for the group.
Hey all!
Home to get some rest for the early morning to transfer Hospitals.
We can continue to use your prayers, but surely the God we love will be with us tomorrow and hopefully they will find nothing and
give him rehab and we will be able to go home. Praise God for other believers who love their sisters and brothers and have never seen them.
But here are some scriptures I got help with;
KJV Thessalonian 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
KJV Thessalonian 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV Thessalonian 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven whom he raised from the dead (eveb) Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
KJV Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath throughHim.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
KJV Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vein words because of these things cometh the wrath of God on the children of disobedience.
So all of these say we aren't going to suffer the wrath so that is good news. Now my issue with the other scriptures unless DMCAL is right about that also. Is regarding the word Church and its missing that it would mean we are in Heaven but it doesn't seem to flow right for me.
So does anyone else have Biblical support of the scriptures for saint and church being inter-changeable?
Is it possible that we will be here on the earth where everything is taking place but that the enemy can't touch us?
I still go back to Marianne's comment of the 10 hours and the one hour of temptation which says they are sometimes used for the same meanings.
Blessings to all of Gods' children and to those who need him that they find him in time.
It seems like the question we need to be asking is, are the first 5 seals part of the wrath of God or a trial for Christians? Obviously, Christians around to be persecuted in number 5.
Quite right Dru
"will keep us one hour from temptation? Which in Gods' time I think calculates to be 3 1/2 year." Why do you think that?
The DAY of the Wrath of the Lamb does not start until the Sixth seal. The HOUR of His Wrath is not until later. Probably after the Last Trump which is why Believers are saved from the HOUR of His wrath.
If Satan is to deceive it will be by pretending to be the second coming halfway throught the tribulation. It is really not a very good idea to try and convince people that the rapture occurs after 3 1/2 years.
"So all of these say we aren't going to suffer the wrath so that is good news. Now my issue with the other scriptures unless DMCAL is right about that also."
Define 'also'.
I did not say the things you quoted there. Though I do see the rapture as occurring sometime after the abomination of desolation.
Hebrews 9:28 "so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
II Peter 3:3- "Knowing this first of all, scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4. They will say, 'where is the promise of his coming? for ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.'"
I think the AC will be scoffing when he places his image in the temple, and the abomination that causes desolation. Most Christians fall in the pre-trib, or mid-trib camp. When these times pass, Christians will be disappointed for a time. This is why it says we cannot know the day or the hour. But we do know we will be saved from the wrath. The sixth seal then talks of the reaction of those scoffers to the impending Judgement: "Then the kings of the earth…hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains…hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb." (Rev 6:15-17, Condensed).
So now the question is how long is there between the Abomination that causes desolation which occurs at the 3.5 year mark, and the sixth seal? Where then do the two witnesses fit in, and that 42 month period between the sixth and seventh trumpet? Or are the trumpets not just isolated to the seventh seal time frame? Or does the abomination that causes desolation occur before the 3.5 year mark?
These are also questions worth asking. this is why I put the first four seals before the tribulation. and the fifth seal at the start of the tribulation. Where people get the Idea of the abomination that causes desolation coming after 3.5 years is from Daniel 12:11-12. But what I believe daniel is referring to is a time period of 1290 years to the dome of the rock. This means that the Abomination which occurs during the tribulation itself does not necessarily come at the 3.5 year period, but rather earlier in the tribulation.
Just some thoughts to get us asking the right questions, instead of accepting the common interpretation.
Yes I know you didn't make those comments Dru, I was referring to the post aove yours. The 42 months of the witnesses does not have to fit inbetween the sixth and seventh trumpet it is just said that the period of propehcy ends during the sixth trumpet period.
Your other point abot when the A of D occurs…
Dan ""Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,"
Surely this puts the A of D at the 3.5 year mark. and surely the seals are refering to this seven year period? ie the fourth seal Death and Hell is the half way point of the tribulation. Seems to fit the persecution of that period.
One seven year cycle is 1290 and 1260 days is it not?
Whose to say that this prophecy does not refer to a longer span of time: prophetic days= years? Daniel twelve adds 75 more days to that final 3.5 years making 1335.
By asking these questions, I am not questioning that there is a final 7 year tribulation, only that there is a dual fulfillment in this prophecy. For Example: the covenent with many could have been the decree by Cyrus to build the temple. The abomination that causes desolation is the dome of the rock, the Ac is Mohammad.
Yep. I suspect that the prophecies apply to BOTH a long period cycle (years) and a short period cycle. (days).
"The abomination that causes desolation is the dome of the rock, the Ac is Mohammad." Well I think the abomination which causes desolation is the image of the beast (looks like a leopard with a lions mouth) which is given life to speak by the two horned lamb. The latter is probably the ac. and human in form. Whether this is Mohammad or not I am not really willing to speculate as such casual speculation can cause graet offense to many. You would have to be pretty certain to make a claim like that. Maybe and maybe not.
Dearest Marianne hope you are well
Anyway I receive this email this morning and i feel that I must post it because it has biblical references and the Lord wants it to reach everyone .
So please read it and consider publishing it
Thanks Rosa
April 2, 1989
I am; look at Me with a child-like faith and embellish My Church;
Lord, why is it that it is so very hard for some to accept this era's prophets and the Word said from You?
I tell you most solemnly that My sheep recognise My Voice;
But Lord, even when one can prove to the sceptics that there are conversions and healings from great sinners, still, with these fruits, they are not convinced.
My Vassula, even if someone should rise from the dead before their very eyes, they would not be convinced … to these Isaiah's prophecy still stands; 1 you will listen and listen again, but not understand; see and see again, but not perceive; for the heart of this nation has grown coarse, their ears are dull of hearing and they have shut their eyes, for fear they should see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart and be converted and be healed by Me;
many forget that My prophets are part of My Body too; I have indeed allotted to each one of you a grace so that all of you make a unity; dearest child, I have formed some to be apostles, some to be priests, teachers and some to be prophets in times of rebellion, so why are so many of you surprised and reject My prophets? how can My Body function with one of its members being cut-off? I am weary, My Body is constantly mutilated and torn; flower, accept with love your persecutors; do not judge them; My prophets will always be persecuted, judged, scourged, suppressed, hunted from town to town, looked upon with contempt and crucified, and so you will keep drawing down on yourselves the blood of every holy man that has been shed on earth; Scripture never lies; I am the Word;
come, my child, I have formed you to repair for souls in purgatory; pray, flower; little do you know what effect prayers have on souls in purgatory; extinguish their fire with prayers; repair for them, come;
1 Is. 6:9-10.
You are right about there being two tribulations, only you've got the time frames wrong.
There was an original "great tribulation" back in the dark ages – it was know as the inquisition. It occurred shortly after the consolidation of Roman religions by Constantine and the Council of Laodicea which added many babylonian/Roman pagan practices into the Catholic church and changed the sabbath day from Saturday to the Roman's SUNday.
This was the first mark of the beast. Over 100 million saints were beheaded as heretics for worshipping on the true sabbath.
These are the souls that were slain for the word of God mentioned in the 5th seal.
God often repeats His prophecies, and the mark of the beast is going to be so important to know, God has given a plain hint as to what it will be. 100 million martyrs will cry out that hint.
Sadly, most Christians will fail to recognize the mark because they have been honoring the mark for centuries. For most, it will be unimaginable that the mark might be something they have been doing all their lives.
Satan is pretty sneaky, eh?
Don't believe me?
I wouldn't think you would.
I could see the sunday worship being the mark if christians were worshipping satan on sunday, instead of Jesus.
But since they are worshiping jesus, I do not see how god could punish them for that.
Hi James, Marianne and all,
The mark of the beast has not yet taken place. The mark will involve that last day ruler known as the beast, which is why it is referred to as his mark. Other designations that he goes by is the man of lawlessness and the antichrist. The purpose of the mark will be for worship and the way that the beast will get that worship is that that mark will be used in the same way that the debit card is used and then at the middle point of that last seven years, ibid he will make all of the other methods of buying and selling such as cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete leaving only his mark as a way of performing any financial transactions, ergo, "He forces." When this happens, then the inhabitants of the earth will have two options, receive his mark in order to be able to continue being able to buy and sell or reject him, his image and his mark and be prepared to die for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.
The mark of the beast has nothing what-so-ever to do with the Sabbath day and that because we are under a new covenant where we are saved by grace through faith apart from the law. In fact, anyone who looks to the works of the law in conjuction with the shed blood of Christ for salvation will not attain eternal life and that because you are not trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross alone. In fact, trusting and observing the law will kill you! We are credited with righteousness through faith alone, for it is God who justifies the wicked, which we are. Does that mean that we have free reign to sin? God forbid! We follow in a different way, that is, we follow Christ, let by the Holy Spirit and are being transformed into his image as we go from faith to faith. If we keep our eyes on Christ, then we will fulfill all that is in the law and when we fail and we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us for those sins, as he is sitting at the right hand of our Father and speaking on our behalf.
In John's vision, Jesus told him to write down what he had seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "Now" is the church period and is still on-going and once the "Now" is completed, then the "What will take place later" begins from Revelation chapter 4 on and is still future, for we are still in the "Now," that is, we are still in the church period. Subsequently, the events regarding the beast and his image are in the "What will take place later" time period, which as I said begins after the completion of the church period.
Marianne is correct in that, for those present during that time period, God is not going to be concerned about what day they worship him on, but rather who they will be worshiping. Anyone who receives that mark, will be pledging their alligence to that beast and that because it will be his mark. This is directly linked to when Jesus said, "whoever saves his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and for the gospel will gain life eternal." People will be receiving that mark in order to save their lives and will not be willing to take their stand for Christ by keeping their testimony of him and standing on the word of God and that because they will be concerned about saving their own lives here and now.
i think as the american dollar crashes next year, which will lead to a global crash of currency, we will see evidence of a "mark" being proposed. as you say, this is an economic privilege granted by the beast.
Sounds like someone is buying into the "Left Behind" theory. Well, it is the most popular interpretation out there. I believed it for many years until I did some research. Seems it is just Satan's clever cover for the truth. Its working pretty well too. I find it amazing that he's got so many preachers to teach their members to reject the law. But then, the antichrist has been called "the lawless one" so I shouldn't be surprised.
With your logic mass murderers may get the same treatment as Billy Graham. Heck, if you can break the first commandment, you could put Allah ahead of Christ or even God the father, and God won't really care. You could even worship the new god of hamburgers I've been seeing on TV lately.
Most people would call these scenarios crazy – God wouldn't let such things go unpunished. Yet breaking the forth commandment doesn't matter to Him? God is nothing if not consistent. To break one commandment is to break them all, according to Christ Himself. Why should He teach this to His disciples if they were supposed to forget about it all after the crucifixion? Where are the verses that clearly and definitively tell them they are to ignore the sabbath and the rest of the commandments? Only by cleverly taking odd verses out of context can a theory be compiled.
Certainly, we are saved by grace alone, but our place in the kingdom of God will depend on our works, and whether we have the mark of the beast will depend on how we keep the commandments.
Well, God punished His people many times in the past – the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Babylonian captivity etc., all for disobeying Him and His law.
Now it will be the Christians' turn. Entire churches (not people) will be destroyed for idol worship and Sunday worship and pagan practices and beliefs. God's new church – the bride, will not be breaking any commandments – you can count on that. God will not cow tow to the desires of an ancient Roman emperor, and neither should we. Anyone that plans to sin intentionally until Jesus returns, and then start to follow the bible, needs to be reminded of who the author is. That reminder will be the mark of the beast and the 7 last plagues. The apostate churches (Babylon) will be destroyed and the followers will be cleansed and corrected as needed.
How does this sound un-biblical?
We all know we will be judged for our sins, and the mark of the beast is just a form of early judgement.
Which will you follow, the traditions of man or the everlasting word of God?
Choose wisely my friends.
So I am only allowed to pray on saturday to jesus?
Suppose I want to pray on sunday, wednesday, thursday also?
You are correct Marianne in that, God is not concerned about what day you worship him on. Regarding this issue, Scripture says the following:
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers everyday alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord."
It is simple – you are to follow the commandments. Saturday is a day for rest and to honor the Lord – to acknowledge that it is His day and to keep it holy.
Beyond that, you may pray to God whenever you want to. I do every day, including Sunday. But I don't for an instant believe it is His "new sabbath day."
You have two chances to have the mark. First, in the hand, or works, if you go to church on Sunday. Secondly, and in addition, is to have it in your forehead (mind) if you actually believe that the sabbath day is now Sunday. Most people have it in both places.
So until you completely abandon the idea that the commandments no longer matter, and that God is just fine with the churches having moved the sabbath to Sunday, you are destined to follow the beast.
Hello James and all,
James, I would remind you and everyone else reading this that, the very reason that Christ came is so that we woiuld NOT be judged for our sins! For those who are truly in Christ, their sins are not accounted to them, for they are completely forgiven. There is a big difference between the judgment seat of Christ and the great white thrown judgment, which takes place at the end of the thousand years and that is, when we stand before Christ as belonging to him, we are not judged according to our sins, but we will receive reward or suffer loss of reward and our sins will never be brought up. On the otherhand, those present at the great white throne will be judged for all of their sins and for every idle that they have spoken. We do not partake of that judgment, for blessed and holy are those take part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power. However, the second death does have power over those who are resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand years.
IN those times when persecution and death begin to threaten, then those who are not truly in Christ will abandon the faith and will worship that beast, his image and receive his mark and that because they did not truly belong to him.
Well, Don, looks like you've got a fast track to heaven. You really don't have to even go to church or ever pray to God ever again. You can lie, cheat and steal, commit adultery all you want and kill a guy in Reno just to watch him die, and Jesus will forgive you completely. (Pardon the sarcasm but I'm trying to make a point).
But as crazy as it sounds, I'm simply expounding on the principle you just quoted. When I put it that way, it sounds absurd, and that's how I feel about the premise in the first place. It doesn't make sense to me.
Surely those who devote their entire lives to God will be given a greater reward than a person who is born again then turns to a life of sin (assuming there is such a thing).
Judgement will not be pass/fail. We will be graded on a curve. The mark of the beast is going to be our final exam. That will be pass/fail.
If you still believe the commandments are irrelevant at that time, you will surely fail.
I pray that that will not happen my friend.
No one here is condoning sin. I do not see how praying to jesus on sunday has to do with buying and selling. The antichrist is not a church kind of guy.
Why is it that whenever it is mentioned that we are saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law, you immediately assume free will to sin? I have explained this over and over again and you continue to embrace that to be under grace through faith is to have carte blanche to sin. So, let me explain it one more time. According to Scripture, the covenant of salvation by grace through faith was revealed to father Abraham 430 years before the law was put into place, as he was credited with righteousness for faith and by faith alone. The law was added because of trespasses until Jesus was to come. For the word of God says:
"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."
Furthermore, it is complete assumption on your part to interpret the right hand or forhead as anything but a literal interpretation and therefore, the burden of proof is on you and that because God's word states that there will be a mark in the right hand or the forhead and there is nothing in the verse that would suggest symbolism. In fact, you completely ignore the purpose of the mark, which without no one will be able to "buy or sell."
By believing that you have to perform works in conjucntion with the shed blood of Christ in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life, you alienate yourself from the grace of God. You actually think that by performing one sliver of the law and ignoring the rest of it that you will enter in? Whoever lives according to the law must complete all of it, for at whatever point you break the law, you have broken the whole thing and I guarantee you, that you are not keeping the entire law. It is amazing to me that Jesus came and met the righteous requirements of the law perfectly on our behalf and then Scripture says that the law was nailed to the cross and is now obsolete and people are still trying to fulfill it, when no one could do it better than Jesus. Jesus came to fulfill the law, that is, to meet its requirements, bringing it to an end. He did not come to perpetuate it.
I really don't have to contend for the arguement regarding grace through faith vs the law and that because the word of God is very clear in that, that no one will be justified by observing the law of Moses. Anyone who has this spirit, will be like those who said, "Lord, Lord! But didn't we prophecy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many miralces in your name?" And you can add, Lord, Lord! Didn't I keep the Sabbath on Saturday? These are all works and regarding these he says, "depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire!"
The mark of the beast has nothing whatsoever to do with what day a person observes the Sabbath on. This is the teachings of men, fulfilling the prophecy which says,
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suti their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. The will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
AS for those in Christ, we do not have a free ride, as we must continue going from faith to faith, being transformed into his image and keeping our flesh under control. As the Scripture states, the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, for they are contrary to each other. So there is no free ride, as you say. I am free in Christ, but I use my freedom to glorify God, not to satisfy the desires of the sinful nature. I am not under the written code of the law, but led by the Spirit of God.
So if you are led by the spirit of God, you will keep His commandments gladly and faithfully. That is all that matters.
You were saved by Jesus and you will be tested by God. The pagan shall not enter His house.
The following verses from Deuteronomy illustrate how the commandments are bound upon us as a sign (e.g. Mark) in our hands and between our eyes (foreheads).
Deu 6:2 Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do [them] in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do [it]; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
And we read in rev 7:
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
These are the 144,000. They are sealed with the commandments of God so they will not suffer the 7 last plagues.
In Rev 14 we hear of the 144,00 who were sealed and of those who had the mark:
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
It is clear to me that keeping the commandments is the opposite of having the mark, therefore the mark must be the breaking of God's law.
You must not only keep His law in your heart, but in your hand and forehead as well.
Just because you are saved by faith in Jesus doesn't mean you won't have the mark.
Be careful my friends and may God bless.
Hello James and all,
You said:
"These are the 144,000. They are sealed with the commandments of God so they will not suffer the 7 last plagues."
This is a good example of reading into Scripture what is not listed. The 144,000 are indeed sealed with a seal in their foreheads, but it is an assumption to infer that the seal is the commandments of God, as there is nothing in the Scripture to support what the seal is. Another assumption, is to infer that the right hand and forehead are meant to be symbolic instead of literal as the text would indicate. The reason that these 144,000 are sealed is because they are the first fruits out of Israel redeemed by God.
You said:
"10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
Those who receive the mark of the beast in their literal right hands or foreheads are identified as those inhabitiants of the earth whose names that were not written in the book of life which was done before the world began as revealed in Rev.17:8:
"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not and yet will come."
The above verse would also show that names were written and not written in the book of life before the world even bagan, showing that God is Sovereign and that just as his word says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
You said:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
The commandments that he is speaking about in the above verse are these:
"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."
(1 John 3:23)
If we are following after Jesus and are led by the Spirit, then we will fulfill the law of God, for everything that the law and the prophets had to say are summed up in these two: Love God with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength and to love one another. But, we follow in the new way, after the Spirit:
"By calling this covenant "New," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." (Heb.8:13)
Mankind is no longer required to observe feasts, holy days, food laws or anything that is of the law of Moses to obtain salvation. In fact, observing those things will take you to Hell and that becasue you are not trusting soley on Christ's finished work on the cross. For as Scripture states,
"Acts 13:38-39
Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.
Also regarding the law vs faith the Scripture says:
Romans 3:19-24
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who
I tell you James and all who are reading this, if you are putting your hope for forgiveness of sins and eternal life in anthing but the shed blood of Christ, you will not obtain it. In other words, performing the work of observing the Sabbath on Saturday is not required and will not grant you access into eternity. The Sabbath is not even going to be an issue, for Scripture says:
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man condisers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."
The reason that no one will be justified by observing the law of Moses is because, it takes the focus off the finished work of Jesus by the shedding of his blood, salvation being a gift by promise and not by works and puts the focus on the works that we do. As I said before, Jesus gave an example of those wwho will desire to enter in, but will not be able to because they will be trusting in their own works:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' " Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.' "
In the above example, their response to the Lord for why they should be able to enter in is "Didn't we do this and didn't we do that and didn't we do the other thing." They are trying to enter in by works, but as you can see by the Lord's response, they won't be able to.
"But 'Lord, Lord,' didn't I keep the Sabbath on Saturday?"
The state of our spirit and our response should be soley, "Lord, Lord, thank you for shedding your blood for me, paying the penalty that I owed and for taking the wrath of God upon yourself that I deserve." Salvation is a free gift through God's promise to Abraham and nothing else! That is, we are saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law.
"Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
Many will not be able to enter into eternal life because they will have trusted in their own works instead of trusting in Jesus for their salvation according to the promise. We ought to do good works in order to love all people as our selves and thereby glorify God and also by doing so we build up our treasures in heaven. But we should not perform works as a requirement for salvation, for then salvation is achieved by our own works and it is no longer a gift.
If in our walk with God, and by his sanctification, we are led to abide by the Law, what then? Not legalistically, or as if it earns us salvation, but willful obedience from a pure heart? This does not mean we are perfect, as we still have our fallen flesh to deal with, and apart from Jesus blood, and faith, this is impossible. This to me as a Christian, is "being ready for his coming". In other words, it is not the Law, that is problematic, but it is our sinful flesh and sinful world that leads Christians to break the law. When Jesus returns, he will deal with the individual sinful flesh, as well as the systemic sin (Babylon) All that will remain is the Law and Faith! The law, without faith leads to self righteousness. If we neglect the law, we would not have faith. Not only does the law make us aware of sin, and lead us to the cross, but Faith cannot exist apart from it.
Just my thoughts.
[…] 5th Seal – Martyrdom and Sorrow […]
Much like Lindsey, the first commmentor, I "knew" in my heart something had changed forever on 9-11-01. I have studied prophecy since 1987 and God has slowly, revealed bits and pieces of His word. When I began I took the stand that had been preached for centuries, that the Roman Empire would be reborn and Roman Catholicism would be the beast. I slowly became aware that Jerusalem, Israel and the true Jews would be the center of the coming Revelation of Jesus. The two legs of Nebuchaneezer's statue represent the two legs of the last Empires, one west and one east. One leg is the Roman Empire, the other is the Islamic Empires which ended with the Ottoman Empire in Turkey in 1923. This is the Empire that suffered the deadly head wound and will reemerge to take over the Mid East and is happening now. Turkey will play a major role with the Antichrist coming from it. The Islamic State was refered to as ISIL early on. The L stood for Levant, an area that included Israel. The Islamic State has announced they are setting their sights on Saudi Arabia and they plan to mint their own currency. If they are able to overtake Saudi Arabia they will control a large portion of the worlds oil which they could then price in their currency, and the world would be under their control, uable to buy or sell without their currency, (the Mark of the Beast). In order for this to happen the sunni and shiite muslims will have to be united. Turkey Prime Minister Erdogan may be the man for the job. He is suffi, a shamanistic form of Islam, it is demonic and can put men into a trance, making them even more violent than the IS fighters.
God is sovereign, He puts men into power and tears them down as He wills."IF" we are in the Last Days the die is cast, the Bible is history that was written before it happens. God knows that men will not turn from their evil ways. Keep your eyes on the Mid East, especialy Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel.