Ask HN: How do I get started making a web app? - <AUTHOR>

I have been contemplating the idea for a while, and now I think I'm ready to start building a web app. Unfortunately, I have no idea where to start. However, based on the number of 'Show HN: Look at the web app I built this weekend...' posts on here, I know there are many people who have experience with building them.
A little background: I know some basic Java and am going to continue learning it this year through AP CompSci. I've worked with HTML and CSS, but have only been exposed to Javascript a few times. I have also tried building some Java web apps with Google App Engine, but it seems to take a while to get started.
My goal is to build a few web apps in between now and next summer. I would like it to improve my programming, whether that be with Java or some other web based programming/scripting language that I would have to learn. At the same time, I hope to end up with some fun results that could be shared with friends and added to my resume/portfolio.
What I've just described is of course what everybody wants. But I am willing to dedicate time and effort to get things done. I am also not afraid to learn a new language, if that what turns out to be best option.
Now what I'm looking for is a easy-to-learn platform that I can use to build dynamic web apps on. Preferably one that I could learn from and, at the same time, produce quick results.
From what I've heard, PHP might be the best when it comes to web apps. However, I'm not exactly sure how easy it is to learn. I know there are some hip and new extensions to JavaScript, such as Node.js and Backbone.js. Then there is Ruby on Rails, Ajax, etc. And since I already know Java, might I as well try the Play framework (which people seem to like)? Yet there are so many frameworks/platforms out there - how do you choose which one to learn and use for your weekend projects?
It'd be great if I could get some feedback on which platforms to use and any tutorials to go along with it. Thanks in advance! <comment><USER2> If you already know Java, but you want something that enables rapid development, and uses a more dynamic language, I have just the ticket for ya:

Groovy on Grails[1]

Download and install grails, and you can have your first webapp up and running in a couple of minutes. The Groovy[2] syntax will be pretty familiar to you from Java, but it has dynamic features that Java lacks. Grails also has plugins for tons of popular libraries and extensions, which make adding functionality to your app pretty seamless for many scenarios.

There's a lot of great "getting started" info here:

<http://www.grails.org/Tutorials>

and the "quick start" guide here:

<http://grails.org/Quick+Start>

Of course Grails is for the server side... you'll probably still want to bone up on your javascript skills, including possibly something like JQuery. I haven't used backbone.js, but have heard good things about it... might be a cool thing to learn as well; looks like it would be useful for building more advanced client-side javascript stuff.

[1]: <http://www.grails.org>

[2]: <http://groovy.codehaus.org/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! This was a very helpful comment.

You mentioned a good point about JavaScript. By sticking with Java, it'll be easier for me to get started and yet I will still learn a ton on the client side with new things like JQuery.

However, I read that the Play framework might be better than Groovy on Grails[1]. Have you heard of it and, if so, what do you think about it?

[1] - [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1597086/any-experience- wi...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1597086/any-experience-with-play- java-web-development-framework)

<comment><USER2> Just keep in mind that Java and Javascript are two totally different things, and have very little in common. The naming thing is just a historical legacy of some branding / marketing strategy that Netscape jumped on back in the '90s.

As for Play Framework... yep, I've heard _of_ it, but I haven't used it. Everything I've heard has been favorable, but by the time I got wind of it, I'd put a lot of time into Grails and am using it pretty heavily now. And if I were to switch away to something else now, I'd look hard at Lift or something else using Scala. But Scala would probably have a steeper learning curve for you, which is why I didn't mention it before. With Groovy, the syntax is mostly a superset of Java, so it's very easy to start writing Groovy as just "java files renamed to .groovy" then introduce the Groovy stylings and idioms as you learn.

But anyway, yeah, spending some time playing (no pun intended) around with Play and evaluating it, probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Just jump in. That's exactly what I did 5 months ago and I am almost finished with my first real web app that I built 100% myself.

I was in a similar position as you when I first started. I knew some HTML/CSS and dabbled in PHP a bit. I took a look at Ruby/Rails and Python/Django as I was unsure of what language/framework I wanted to learn. I decided to learn Python/Django and it has been a wonderful experience thus far.

I used the following to learn Python/Django

<http://learnpythonthehardway.org>

<http://docs.python.org/tutorial/>

<http://www.djangobook.com/>

<http://docs.python.org/>

<https://docs.djangoproject.com/>

Stackoverflow.com is also an incredible resource when you have a problem you cannot figure out. Search for an answer or ask a new question if needed.

Good luck!

<comment><USER2> +1 for Learn Python the Hard Way. I've sent a number of people to read that, and the reviews have always been very favorable. I learned Python from a different book and random online tutorials (to the extent that I can say I know Python), and kinda wish LPTHW had been out when I started with it.

And while I still stick to my recommendation of Groovy on Grails for the OP, I will say this... for anyone who wants to do Python, it _is_ a pretty cool language. It's fairly easy to learn, makes it easy to write readable code, and has tons of libraries and docs.

I'll also chime in a mention of Pylons... I was using it a bit back in 2008, and thought pretty highly of it. I understand that - since then - some "stuff" has gone on... merging projects, renaming, etc., blah.. I guess what was Pylons is now Pyramid or something? But either way, at least a couple of years ago, it was pretty impressive framework.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This site gets a lot of criticism but it is a good jumping-off point: <http://www.w3schools.com/>

It will teach you the basics of PHP, XHTML, CSS, and Javascript. But you might have to do some of web searching to answer your questions... use it like a map.

I personally like PHP because it allows you a lot of freedom. There isn't any framework as part of PHP so you can get up and running quickly. That was very helpful for me when I started with PHP 10+ years ago.

Granted once you get good, for your "weekend projects" you will want to pick up a framework like CakePHP (very much like Ruby on Rails) and start building your apps on that. CakePHP has a nice blog tutorial [1].

Whatever you choose for a language / database / etc. good luck and have fun!

[1] <http://book.cakephp.org/view/219/Blog>

</comment><comment><USER5> It doesn't really matter whether you use Play, Grails, Django or Rails. What matters is that you actually sit down with a few hours and follow the tutorial.

You have permission to start coding. Go forth and build!

</comment><comment><USER6> Jump right in and start building something that interests you. An important learning technique is grinding through a real-ish world problem.

If you're open to the idea, I suggest Python and Web2py. With a bit of programming knowledge, I suspect you could pick up both Python and Web2py in less than a week and be coding with reasonable efficiency. The Web2py "Book" includes a summary on Python which is enough to get you started. The nice thing about Web2py is you can easily run it locally on Mac/Windows/*nix and deploy to a server whenever. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER7> <http://ruby.railstutorial.org/> (the online version of the book is free).</comment>


Six Months to the End of XP Support - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/01/six_months_end_xp_support/?page=1

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a pretty good summary of the XPocalypse :-) I noticed when I went in to talk to my doctor that the roll around platform he used was running XP. I asked him if they were going to change it, he didn't know.

One of the largest issues seems to be that the new OS needs new hardware, but the existing hardware and OS are "good enough" so it isn't an urgent cost.

It makes me also wonder who, if anyone, is planning for building an OS that will run for 10 years. Interesting times indeed.</comment>


Ancient Mars: Covered with life, oceans, clouds, and imagination - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/05/wet_mars/ <comment><USER2> More details about how he painted it: (it's linked in the article) [https://plus.google.com/113761354606401247247/posts/K8RQu5xu...](https://plus.google.com/113761354606401247247/posts/K8RQu5xu3EH#113761354606401247247/posts/K8RQu5xu3EH)

I like the images. He says that the climate of each area is not chosen very scientifically. I don't like some of the assumptions, but I don't know enough about climate to make something better. (For example, the mount Olympus is very high: should you put some snow there like in the Kilimanjaro?)

A few weeks ago there was an article in xkcd:whatif <http://what- if.xkcd.com/10/> that analyze the climate of the Earth with the landmasses rotated 90°. This analysis in xkcd is apparently more correct and scientifically based.

It would be nice to have a mixture of the two approaches. Images of "Wet Mars" and "Rotated Earth" that look nice and are based in climate science</comment>


How Private Colleges Are Like Cheap Sushi - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/blogs/ed/2014/07/08/329889370/how-private-colleges-are-like-cheap-sushi

<comment><USER2> The main idea of this story is that private colleges are like used cars: They've got a high sticker price that's almost always haggled down "because you're not just any student/customer." The resulting anchoring effect makes people more likely to see private college tuition as a value.

Here's my contribution to the discussion: The article interviews a professor at Wharton (that's part of UPenn, a private college), and one at UMinnesota (a public college) who's advising the college administration to start following the private college model. I did a little snooping, and found out that the author is a Yale graduate. So this is similar to some used car owners (and someone who thinks his dealership should get into used cars) talking about how used car dealerships are deceptive about their pricing.

Edit: I thought a little more about this, and I've decided that this is a pattern caused by information asymmetry. The whole price negotiation game with used car dealerships really stopped being super profitable when the internet made it easy to figure out how much a given vehicle was "supposed to" cost.

I wonder if we could do the same for college tuition...

<comment><USER3> How about we start with a law that forces Colleges/Universities to open all information regarding admissions / tuition?

<comment><USER2> Well, private colleges are essentially businesses. I'm not sure if the government can mandate them to release information about their... clients?

That said, we don't need super personal data. Summary statistics would be fine.

On that note, the NPR article cites this survey[1], wherein participating private colleges contributed data that was then used to calculate aggregate statistics about students in the US in general.

What we'd want is probably more specific than that. We need per-school statistics, so that trends in how colleges charge and discount may be identified (what if colleges on the East coast are more likely to mark down tuition? What if advertised tuitions are relatively constant, but actual tuition paid varies with cost of living? these are interesting threads to explore). The difference between the average student's tuition after grants and the sticker price, along with the standard deviation of that distribution, would be a good place to start. Quantiles would be even better.

[1] [http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/about/pressreleases/2013TDSP...](http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/about/pressreleases/2013TDSPressRelease.pdf)

<comment><USER4> Sure you can, depending on how heavily the industry is regulated. Ex. SEC requires public companies to release certain financial data.

<comment><USER5> Not even the same ballpark. Releasing the total revenue and costs for a quarter is nothing like releasing the price each client paid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What the article misses, though a few commenters pick it up, is that this discounting is also a form of price discrimination to maximize profits. The institution will charge each customer based on their willingness (ability) to pay. The schools are actually in a great position to do this because of the fine granularity of the grant amounts and the willingness of their customers to divulge their willingness to pay.

A counterbalance to this though is that bright students are as much the product as they are the customers, especially in elite schools, where building up networks is a key driver of demand.

</comment><comment><USER7> I know this is completely not the point of the article, but I know exactly which sushi joint it's talking about in the beginning: [http://sushiparknyc.com/](http://sushiparknyc.com/). Unlike the author, I've been to it a few times. It's exactly the same as 90% of the sushi restaurants in NYC---unspectacular, but you get what you paid for.

</comment><comment><USER8> Or maybe it's just the start of the end of the education pricing bubble, and they're trying to land gently.

</comment><comment><USER9> Is there an existing dataset showing the mean (or, better, median) price paid (net of discounts) by students for each combination of college, course and matriculation year?

<comment><USER2> I'm really interested in this stuff, and I did some Googling along these lines. The most useful thing I've found so far is this "Common Data Set" initiative[1] that essentially has colleges fill out a form covering basic summary statistics (e.g. total dollars given in financial aid, number of students admitted, etc). You can look up "common data set [college name here]," and probably find their version of the form.

I'll try and do some more research and maybe analyze some of the CDS data tomorrow. If you find anything interesting, please post it as well!

[1] [http://www.commondataset.org/](http://www.commondataset.org/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm surprised there wasn't a tie-in to healthcare pricing.

</comment><comment><USER11> I realise the article is about Private Colleges but it opens with some fairly odd fears about cheap sushi. The author needn't (necessarily) fear cheap sushi:

1\. Sushi doesn't necessarily contain any fish and almost never contains ingredients "flown around the world". You can make a Makizushi or Futomaki roll _very_ cheaply using vegetarian or cured ingredients. Even when it does contain fish, it could be canned tuna or processed crab sticks (less tasty than fresh but durable) or cured salmon.

2\. Sushi can only really sit in a display fridge for about 8 hours before the rice dries out. At the end of the day, everything is marked down for quick sale. It's not necessarily poor quality, it just needs to be sold quickly. If you see a sign that says "All sushi, 50% off", this is probably what's going on.

<comment><USER12> I think the author might be talking about one of those Chinese eateries with a very permanent "50% off" sign attached to the store-front.</comment></comment>


Bitcoin Becomes Legal Payment Option in Japan - <AUTHOR> https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/04/03/220205/bitcoin-becomes-legal-payment-option-in-japan-prices-spike?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=twitter <comment><USER2> The article says "recognizing Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as legal tender"

The definition of 'legal tender' is something that must be accepted to settle a debt. For example, if you owe me 500USD (under a contract governed under US laws), and you offer me 5x 100USD notes to settle it, I have to accept. If you offer me 100x 50GBP notes, I don't have to accept, even though the market value of those notes is higher than the value of the debt.

I highly doubt it's the case that a creditor in Japan is now forced to accept Bitcoin in the settlement of JPY-denominated debts.

Ergo, not legal tender. Ergo I don't trust the rest of the article.

</comment><comment><USER3> When will this Bitcoin fad finally die?</comment>


Ask HN: How can I prepare for Job Interviews? - <AUTHOR> My first job out of college didn't have much of an interview, but now I want to jump to another company and I realized I dont have much experience with interviews.<p>I will be giving a lot of interviews, but are there any tips/links/videos from where I can learn how to become better? <comment><USER2> Well. I don't have links. But you can check out GitHub for interview questions pertaining to programming. I would just get out there apply to some jobs, and get experience that way.</comment>


Orinda grieves over Halloween shooting, councilman calls for ban on Airbnb - <AUTHOR> https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Orinda-grieves-over-Halloween-shooting-14805195.php <comment><USER2> As a non-USA person, I really don't get why your politicians don't just call for a ban on guns.

<comment><USER3> Because of this thing called corruptio... sorry I meant lobbying.</comment></comment>


The Brightest Tech Minds Sound Off on the Rise of the Tablet - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/03/ff_tablet_essays/all/1

<comment><USER2> Worth checking out if only for the entry from Fake Steve.

<comment><USER3> The conclusion to Martha Stewart's entry also makes a good quote, if only for the enthusiasm you can almost hear behind her words. This would make good ad copy for Apple:

"There are some magazines that I would look at just to see in more depth. National Geographic, God, I would love to see that. I already have the digitized version of National Geographic, but it's not the same thing. It's just like the magazine. The tablet could be like going into Africa."</comment></comment>


Network Neuroscience Theory of Human Intelligence (2017) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/pdf/S1364-6613(17)30221-8.pdf <comment><USER2> when was this published. context.</comment>


Ask HN: How to make smalltalk? - <AUTHOR> Hey,
I realize this appears OT, but I don't think I'm the only one on HN with this problem, and we can just think of it as 'hacking social interactions' instead.
Here's the problem -- I've broken through the fear (of rejection) of talking to random, attractive girls. However, I have problem maintaining the smalltalk (i.e. conversation generally dies after 2-3 minutes).
Here's a typical scenario: () I find some reason to talk about them -- if waiting @ bus stop (do you know when the next bus comes along?); if waiting in life for smoothie (those are nice ear rings ...); etc ... () then, conversation starts dying; [btw, I'm on a college campus]; i.e. we can chat a bit a bout their major / field of study, etc ... but that's about it
The goal here isn't the pickup society's goal of: hey, go into a random bar, get laid; it's just figuring out how to meet new people + have interesting conversations without those .. ehh .. awkward 10 second silences that kill everything.
Suggestions? (help me debug my life, lol)
Cheers! <comment><USER2> I was about to capitalize the S because I thought this was going to be about how to write a Smalltalk implementation.

As for your actual question, sometimes the conversation dies because the other person wants it to, and you'd seem pushy if you tried to force it to continue. But in borderline cases I recommend asking the other person about their feelings about relevant things.

I was a peer conselor in college. They taught us something called Rogerian Therapy, which consists of adding as little as possible of your own spin to the conversation, just asking questions, particularly about how the other person feels. You can't be too obvious, or it gets annoying. But if you're subtle about it, people just open up.

<comment><USER3> As an introvert, I really, really (really) hate being on the receiving end of this endless follow-on questions type of 'conversation' (can it be a conversation if your only participation is to crowbar more words out of me? (I digress...)).

"The only thing a true introvert dislikes more than talking about himself is repeating himself," as an article in The Atlantic once said. So be careful about using this Rogerian Therapy on shy people, and please don't use it on me.

<comment><USER4> If you're picking... please don't confuse shy with introverted. Some people may be both, but it's definitely not the rule. It took me a while to realize I'm a bold introverted... I'm not afraid of interactions, I just prefer books to parties. Once the confusion was cleared I felt much better in my skin.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> What makes you think you're socially compatible with most people?

I think the key is realizing that you will probably only click with a small number of people. In my case, I click amazingly well with highly educated, ambitious, often nerdy people, and horribly with people who are really into sports or drinking.

So just striking up a random conversation is unlikely ever to be particularly interesting for me. As a result, I get bored and probably come across as quite boring.

So my recommended approach is to amplify your quirky, unique aspects. These may confuse or offend most people, but once in a while you'll run into someone who gets you. Then just go with the flow.

If you really want to get good with normal people, just get a job as a waiter or bartender.

I recommend lines like "wanna go on a treasure hunt? I'm looking for bits of radioactive ore" or "i'm looking for a soul mate and i am feeling this weird connection with you".

Definitely stay away from petty compliments about earrings, etc. Those are creepy and will turn most girls off. And unless you're a jeweler there isn't really very far you are going to be able to take the conversation, even if she loves talking about earrings.

Bottom line: Maybe 1% of people will look at you and get a good, happy feeling. Half of them will be left after you say something. So don't worry about the 99.5% of people who will be difficult to engage with. Focus on putting yourself out there and the 0.5% will be magnetically drawn to you and your best characteristics.

<comment><USER6> I'm the same way, I click with intelligent, inspiring and often wonderful people and horribly with people that go by the name grandalf.

Seriously, I think this is horrible advise. You can certainly surround yourself with people just like you, or you can challenge yourself and meet a whole slew of interesting people. Some of my best friends are about as polar opposite as it gets. Some even like sports!

As for the lines:

"wanna go on a treasure hunt? I'm looking for bits of radioactive ore"

This WILL NOT get you a girlfriend.

"i'm looking for a soul mate and i am feeling this weird connection with you"

This WILL. Three months later she'll kill your cat and you'll be seeking a restraining order.

My advice - be yourself, add confidence and stop worrying about how it's going to turn out.

One day you might even run into someone that is both highly educated and like sports!

<comment><USER5> The point of my comment was that there's not really any point in trying to change who you are. In particular, complimenting a woman as an attempt to strike up a conversation is a guaranteed way to make her freak out (unless she is already attracted to you, but if she is then it doesn't matter what you said).

The poster's question was about initiating smalltalk. Why waste time with smalltalk when there are big, fun things to talk about? I used to waste time with smalltalk but then one day it dawned on me that it's a total waste of time -- I typically forget the name of the other person immediately when all I've done is exchange smalltalk which creates its own problems.

I'm not a professional diplomat and I'm not interviewing for a job with you, so if all you can talk about is smalltalk, then I'd rather just be alone. If you're afraid to talk about anything controversial, or can't handle it if I disagree with you, then I don't really respect you.

Sure it's fun now and then to try to click with someone who is totally different (someone who holds traditional values, more average in aspirations and interests), but the most I've ever gotten out of it is a vague sense of flattery if the person is physically attractive, and that's a terrible reason to attempt to repeat the experiment.

Being alone is OK. Cows wander in herds, and the human tug to be around people is a lower instinct. Sure it's fun sometimes, and yes it can even be fun to cheer in unison after someone hits a home run on TV, etc., but it's all an attempt to trick yourself into feeling an artificial sense of belonging with strangers.

If you want a s/o with low self esteem, then make a lot of money and try to act normal. She'll find you.

If you want a s/o who is a unique person with a life, just be yourself (even if you're a geek) and don't try to conform to perceived norms. You probably perceive the norms slightly incorrectly in the first place (or else you wouldn't be a geek) and you're likely to overthink them.

Most importantly, don't try to "find" someone. Just be happy being alone and you'll attract similarly independent people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Aren't you the guy who posted the Ask HN about getting married before doing a startup yesterday? I think maybe you have your order crossed up.

<comment><AUTHOR> I am. Order not crossed up at all; this is just divide & conquer approach; figure out what end goal is, then divide it into smaller problems, and solve each of those. :-)

<comment><USER8> Why does this seem like a refinement on the 5 year-old's "Why?...Why?..."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Starting a conversation is much easier when you have a reason to think you have something to talk about with the other person. I too find it difficult (and generally, also fairly pointless) to engage random strangers on the street in conversation, but have found on the other hand that tech meetups, volunteer opportunities, and alumni events have a relatively high chance of producing interesting conversations, especially once I've established an "anchor" group of friends and peers within a particular community.

You may also want to consider the context for the conversations when trying to determine the reason that they die out. There was an article posted here some time back on the subject of "acceptable settings for flirting", which wasn't all that informative, but did hammer on one key point: people's degree of receptiveness to conversation with strangers depends largely on context. I.e., someone sitting by him or herself in a bar or coffee shop may be a bit more open to chit-chat than they would be when sitting at a bus stop, or having lunch in a cafeteria.

Basically, you should rely on favorable settings (parties, departmental mixers, sporting events) and implied social ties (academic cohort, shared professional interest, friends in common) to get your foot in the door, _then_ try out your best lines, rather than expecting your wit alone to forge a new relationship.

</comment><comment><USER10> There are basically three sources of small talk. 1\. Things said previously in the conversation as in after asking what their major is a follow up where you actually know something about the topic. It helps to be well rounded. 2\. Your personal interests(note: for a geek this usually turns out badly if they haven't signaled interest in the topic.) 3\. Surroundings, posters for something happening on campus etc.

Let it die. It is the holding on to it after it is dead is what makes it awkward. It is easier to approach them a second time if it dies cleanly the first time.

</comment><comment><USER11> (1) Good small talk is usually personal, in the sense that it's about the people talking. "I'm a morning person" is not inherently more interesting than "What a nice day!", but it creates a stronger bond between the people talking.

(2) Think of the conversation as an exchange of information: you're telling each other things about yourselves. If you just ask questions and don't volunteer anything about yourself, you seem creepy; if you only talk about yourself, you seem like an egotist. If in doubt, try to get her talking about herself more than you're talking about yourself, but not by too much.

(3) Don't try to show off your knowledge. It's good to be insightful or witty, and it's fine to introduce a relevant fact if it moves the conversation along. But in a casual conversation, people are not looking to be impressed by your knowledge of e.g. their major or yours.

(4) If the conversation stalls out, ask a very general question: something like "Are you having a good day?" or "Looking forward to the weekend?" or "How are your classes going?" This makes it easy for them to find a subject they're comfortable discussing. If someone replies to a question like this in a closed-off way, like "Yup" or "Fine," they're signalling that they don't want to continue the conversation. You can smile and say "Cool" and let it drop without any embarrassment. Not everyone likes talking to strangers, and everyone is sometimes in the mood to be alone with their thoughts.

</comment><comment><USER12> Some things are made to hack and some things just aren't. You are wanting to hack something that just wasn't ever meant to be hacked.

The solution to your problem is so simple it's actually rather elegant: Just care about the other person. If you genuinely care, you'll have no problem finding things to talk about. You'll be asking questions, not because you're following a flowchart or playing a game, but because you _really_ want to know. Fortunately, it's also the only way that works anyway; if you don't care, you'll be clocked and look like a fool.

OTOH, if you don't care about the other person, move on and save both of you the trouble.

<comment><USER13> You hit it right on the head.

Getting to know a person isn't a technical skill that you master and practice at will. (Granted, parts of the process, like choosing interesting topics and getting a feel for what the other person wants to talk about is sort of a skill gained by practice).

Really getting to know a person _requires_ you to actually care what the other person thinks. Almost all else will follow.

Someone here mentioned that they dislike smalltalk so much that they forget the other person's name right after the smalltalk ends. That's just one example of many of what happens if you contrive to talk to someone without actually caring about them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm a hermit, similarly incapable of smalltalk.

I long ago discovered that no one really likes small talk. It's the prelude to a real conversation; that's the only reason people engage in it (or to signal to each other's monkey brains that one is not a threat).

The solution? Ramp it up into a real conversation. Talk about economics, politics, religion, and Emacs vs. Vim. Out of the blue, whatever.

On a side note, who do you think the women will remember more: the guy who they got into an conversation with about Frederic Bastiat, or the 100th guy to ask them about the weather?

<comment><USER15> Good luck gauging if the person you're talking to is familiar with classical political theory.

I honestly do think that the content of the conversation doesn't make up 100% of the reason why a girl/friend/colleague remembers you. A lot of it is your mannerisms, look, demeanor, friendliness, etc. A real conversation is great, but it's a very risky bet trying to dive straight in to controversial topics.

The reason smalltalk exists is to get a feel for what topics one can actually discuss. It's all part of the dance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> It seems to me like you are using a "situational opener" which basically means you open the conversation with something nearby or something you notice. (weather, clothing, event, etc.)

Generally speaking these openers are not very good because after you talk about the situation the conversation is dead. After you ask her when the next bus comes along what could you possibly follow-up with? How many people do you think will be on the bus? Do you think it will be a bumpy ride?

So your goal is to move as quickly as possible from the situational opener into something deeper and more interesting. Find out something about where she is going and try to build off of that into a much more substantial topic.

It's best if you talk about things that are fun such as relationships or social problems. Always avoid the following topics though:

religion politics abortion affirmative action

These topics will destroy you.

Good luck. And once again, try to transition away from the situational opener as soon as possible!

</comment><comment><USER17> If you can't make smalltalk with a girl then you can't make smalltalk with a guy either. Why does that matter, right? Well it isn't just girls you have a problem talking to. Chances are you're boring in general. And you obviously want to find a girl and a good way to find a girl is through her friends (both guy and gal).

If someone (guy or girl) asks what you're doing later tonight and the only answer you have is "Going to work on some code" then you are a boring person.

If you have no options in your lifestyle besides go home and sit at a computer you aren't going to be able to make smalltalk.

If you aren't going out this Thursday night to see a local band, or head to the park for some frisbee or soccer/football or volunteering to read children's books to kids at the library or really anything outside of your house what exactly do you think you're going to talk to these people about? The weather? Get some hobbies that you can share with other people. And pairs- programming does not count.

And a major point about majors. No one gives a flying fuck. Third month into freshman year every single person has been chatted up with "What's your major? oh that's cool, I'm a so-and-so". That's basically staple conversation to the point where you replay the conversation from memory rather than interacting with the person talking to you.

People who are "good" at smalltalk aren't making shit up on the spot. They go out and do things that they can talk about. Things other people do in a social setting. If you can only define yourself as a programmer you are a boring person.

</comment><comment><USER18> i think that this is a good rule of thumb, although its not exactly the universal solution:

ask open-ended questions, and latch onto any information that comes back to you in order to ask more open-ended questions.

its not exactly small-talk, but people tend to like to talk about themselves and will generally respond reasonably to doing so.

<comment><USER19> See if there is something about the person to see if there is a nongeneric opening. If she is holding a book, ask about the book. If it's a romance novel, talk about the difference between girl books and guy books. If she is carrying a newspaper of magazine ask whats interesting today.

If these are a little difficult practice on people who dont count. By that I mean people who you dont care if you never see again. The elderly are often a bit lonely and love to chat. Or a girl you would never ask out. (You could be wrong about that.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> One thing I <s>dont</s> recommend you try is turning to a girl in a bar and going "jesus these prices are insane!" without realising she's a hardline christian who hates people using jesus as a "curse" word.

Still "with" her 3 years later. And we still row when I forget and say jesus :P

Controversy tends to work quite well because it gets someones attention then they conciously consider talking to you - casual talk or passing chat doesnt really engage anyone and they will pass you over w/o a thought (that is the awkward pause).

Dont say anything hurtful or rude obviously, just outrageous (preferably relating to an inanimate "thing" and definitely _no one_ in the room in case you pick a friend)

Once you have someones attention you can have a real conversation (like pookleblinky suggested elsewhere). "Hi my name is...", "whats yours", "Whats do you do" is fine for small talk. As pookle also mentioned it lets you establish a non-threatening relationship... then pick a good topic to discuss, that can be hard but let it come naturally.

I think your _real_ problem is that your thinking about it too much (I used to do the same). Just care less about what they might be thinking of you and talk as if you've known them for years. If they dont like you then being careful and considerate etc. wont help much anyway - their loss.

</comment><comment><USER21> It's all about cockiness and really not giving a damn about possible outcomes. You also need to realize that many of the 'cool' people you talk to are caught up in a world of idiocy. Once you can pick up on the stupidity, you'll feel a lot more confidet and comfortable in approaching someone. I find that subtle sarcasm helps too.

If you're trying to approach someone who's not obviously part of the hip crowd, and from what you observe, they seem nice, approach them. You'll come to realize that people are as nervous and shy to talk to others as you are, so you're on the same level as most people.

<comment><USER20> an eye opener for me was when I happened to be hanging near this guy I hated but was in my group of friends. He was, really, an idiotic person (why I disliked him) but always seemed to be surrounded by women!

Of course you'd figure he has his patter down too a tee and knows just what to say: but not at all - he was just loud and thick (partly put on, partly genuine) and controversial... people loved it in the short term but they wouldnt hang for more than 20mins or so (unless they wanted a bit of him). I cant even remember what he was saying (mostly along the lines of "what do you do" closely followed by "can I feel your tits" or something...)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> wget ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/smalltalk/smalltalk-3.1.tar.gz

tar xzvf smalltalk-3.1.tar.gz

cd smalltalk-3.1

./configure

make

<comment><USER23> I always find this interesting on Hacker News that a post like this, which appears witty, has so many upvotes, and that 'thwarted' just posted this response to another post:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=619028>

with virtually the same ranking. I guess it's very subjective what constitutes as "contributing to the discussion" or not.

<comment><USER22> As a musician you get this all the time as well... the songs you're most proud of play to deafening silence while the songs that could never be said to have been inspired leave the house on their feet, shedding tears and yodeling.

People in groups may feel warm&fuzzy&nice but until we can get the same kind of bandwidth between our respective heads as we can inside our heads all group consciousness will remain anathema for excellence.

For intelligence I go to be by myself or seek out the company of other specialists.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I've learned a lot from www charismaarts com

I highly recommend it. It may change your social life forever.

It's more about conversation than pickup. Peruse the forums. It's not about technique, it's more about intent. It's not about seeking approval, it's about giving approval.

I'm not going to rehash what their philosophy and conversational techniques are but if you were to search my previous comments on mingling and small talk - much of it is sourced from them.

</comment><comment><USER25> Here, maybe this will help, and judging by the vocabulary _aherm_ some folks are using to describe social situations here... they probably learned all this the same way I did:

1\. If you're going to make conversation with someone, commit to doing it. i.e. don't mumble or make a half peep attempt at saying hi. Look at them, pause, smile, and say hello or something exciting like that.

2\. If you want conversation to keep going... ask open ended questions. These are questions that can't be answered with just a yes or no. When you ask such a question be sure to answer it yourself. "I hope to take over the world one day. What are your dreams?"

3\. Talk in terms of feelings. "I feel it is a nice day today, I love the smell of freshly cut grass" not "It is 80F this is the exact temperature I'm calibrated to like".

That should put you on the path. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER26> The thing you have to remember is that most people _love_ to talk about themselves. This isn't a bad thing, it's just human nature. You can leverage this, however, for small talk. Ask the other person about themselves, and they will often talk for hours. You can keep it going by just asking follow up questions: "Oh, you went to College X? What made you choose that over Y?"

The trick with this is to not come off like you're writing a novel. The line between interested and creepy is pretty fine. The best advice I can give you here would be to avoid getting /too/ personal. Keep it general.

</comment><comment><USER27> as a starting point, "how to win friends and influence people" by dale carnegie (less weird than it sounds)

</comment><comment><USER28> The awkwardness of your 10s silence is entirely in your head. They might have the same problem, but you wouldn't notice if they didn't. Familiarity is about being able to be in someones presence without it becoming awkward.

A lot of attractive girls are boring because the guys always make the conversation, if you let her take the lead you will bore her by default. Try mentioning something she might be interested in and see if she latches on: then you can take the lead and make yourself interesting.

</comment><comment><USER29> In general: Join Toastmasters, it will help with small talk and making speeches. Learn to tell jokes, a conversation is much easier if the other person is relaxed and laughing. Be well read and know how to argue in a non- confrontational manner. It is not always necessary to use the large blunt object to make a point.

If you are looking to get married and you need help meeting someone then google 'Doc Love' and read his free stuff or listen to his internet radio show. I was referred to a counselor for this sort of thing by a friend, the counselor was teaching the same methods of recognizing what is being communicated (by her and by me)

I tend not to notice non-verbal behavior or know what message I'm sending except in formal situations. At the time I wasn't ready for the information so it was frustrating. Later through I was and it has helped.

If you have problems with recognizing non-verbal behavior look into the work of Paul Ekman; again very helpful.

</comment><comment><USER30> pack up some small anecdotes that are a lot of fun and that also expose your interests. Make sure they're not super-geeky - most laypeeps will enjoy a story from fmylife.com or rickrolls or /b/ gaming Time Magazine or whatever but not about star wars or iphone apps or functional programming, Sounds obvious but I personally definitely have to do a filter through my stories and file them in OK and not OK bins in my head. Showing off cool new iphone apps is ok too. It's okay to be geeky as long as you are interesting.

Switch between those and open-ended questions and you should be ok. About 1/3 ppl who I chat w like that chat back. 1/3 you could force it (and sometimes forcing it is worth it, since this is how you build up the game) and 1/3 are plain not down, but ignore those fools or switch to a more advanced game.

</comment><comment><USER31> Just talk. Talk about anything and don't let your feelings get involved. Some of the best advice I ever heard was that shyness was just self-centeredness getting in the way. Focus on the other person and how they are responding to you. If you get "real" responses, keep talking. If you get "yeah," "nope," or apparent disinterest then disengage from the conversation.

Don't think about trying to get a "connection" with the person, it's just conversation, not an interview.

The important thing to remember is there is no reason to be embarrassed: this person has nothing against you, she just doesn't feel like talking to you. Maybe she would at some other time, maybe never. Either way, It's Not A Big Deal, just talk to the next girl you meet instead. After a while it gets easier and you don't even think about it.

</comment><comment><USER32> The best conversations are those that aren't predictable. Get away from the mundane as fast as possible. You are a unique person, if you hide that uniqueness, you become boring and nobody will want to talk to you.

eg: You: "Crazy rain eh?" Girl: "Yeah." You: "I love the rain, it reminds me of Rangoon." Girl: "You've been to Rangoon?" You: "No but it is the best city name in the world." Girl: "I've always been partial to Riyad"

If rain reminds you of an episode of star trek or of an algorithm, say so. You'd amazed how far you can get if you say something w/ total confidence no matter how absurd. If the person blows you off, it's all good. 99% of people aren't going to be your friends.

Don't be boring and don't be afraid. The more you do it the easier it gets. You loose absolutely nothing by trying.

</comment><comment><USER33> All you need to do is look for the other persons interest to perk up at specific topics and ask questions in that direction. Keep them talking about things that interest them, tell them how cool what they like is, etc. Make sure to have your own insights and be able to BS about any topic, but the most important thing is to keep THEM talking. People are more interested in what they have to say than what you do.

/sad truth

</comment><comment><USER34> Actually, I had just came up with an idea for an iPhone application (check out <http://fairsoftware.net/public/project/634>)

I'd be interested in finding a developer and an English major to turn this into something real. I think this app has potential.

<comment><USER35> Funny story, I'm an iPhone dev and recently single. I have had some difficulty closing with girls recently and now my firends make fun of me saying I should code an IClose app for the iPhone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Ask her questions about herself. Demonstrate to her that you are interested in what she has to say. The end.

<comment><USER28> Every guy does that, and pretty transparently to boot. The end.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> In my opinion, the goal of "smalltalk" is to find what you both have in common with each other. ("Are you a student? --Me too! Major? --Really ... I was going to go into that, but <insert joke here>") Assuming you do in fact have things in common, the rest should follow.

</comment><comment><USER38> Does anybody else find it interesting that this question has generated so many responses here?

Suppose you are standing in line for a drink, and some HN person is in front of you. How to make small talk? Ask them, "how to make small talk," and you'll make small talk in no time.

</comment><comment><USER39> This may not be what you're looking for, and I don't generally favor medication. However, for a personal, anecdotal perspective. A number of years ago, when stress was particularly high, I started taking St. John's Wort. In addition to taking the edge off of my anxiety, I found myself communicating somewhat more facilely particularly in random social encounters. It was a surprising and pleasant realization.

Now, as a counter-balance, in addition to lessening my anxiety, the St. John's Wort also seems to lessen my "spark" somewhat, depending on dose. I countered this somewhat by adjusting the dose, e.g. at times taking 150 mg as opposed to the "standard" 300 mg.

It's not a dramatic effect, and people still consider me plenty witty (when I'm in good form); but I do sometimes notice, particularly after it wears off, that I'm "seeing further/deeper".

The thing about St. John's Wort is that it is over the counter. It's also considered to be generally fairly benign, although you do need to be aware of potentially adverse effects on some other medication regimens. There are others to be aware of, but as an example, if you are female you should be aware that St. John's Wort lessens the effectiveness of oral contraceptives.

St. John's Wort is also noted for increasing photosensitivity in some people.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Adverse_effects_a...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Adverse_effects_and_drug_interactions)

For me, in part perhaps the St. John's Wort helps me to let go of my own concerns and to focus more on the immediate moment and what interests the other person. This immediacy eliminates much of the "hesitation" that quickly grows in awkwardness to the point where the interaction is killed.

As I've gotten older and, frankly, my hormones balance has correspondingly changed, I've found it easier to achieve this state without e.g. St. John's Wort (or alcohol, or whatever else might be used). Also, being involved in an activity that is very engaging and immediate can also on its own bypass / short-circuit / obviate this "hesitation".

So, I think there are ways to get towards what you describe without popping a pill. Perhaps meditation might be a component, over the longer term. Still, experiencing that ease is of itself interesting and informative, and so I share my experience for any benefit or further discussion it may promote.

I wish you well, and I wish you particularly the social grace you seek: As one gets older, it does become apparent how "short" our time is, and how important social life is to one's quality of life. You are right to want to improve your own.

Regards

P.S. If you do look into St. John's Wort, be sure to find a product that is standardized not only against hypericin but also against hyperforin. I've found that only those products that ensure the latter have the best efficacy for me.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Chemical_composit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Johns_Wort#Chemical_composition)

<comment><USER39> Upon reflection, I recall a period of time, earlier in my life, when I engaged in fairly intense, daily exercise. My social comfort increased significantly, as well as my overall ease with myself and "comfort in my own skin".

Unfortunately, a rather serious injury from which I never fully recovered, eliminated my ability to continue engaging in that or similar exercise. But I would definitely look at personal fitness as a course of action. The trick is that it needs to be something you really enjoy and not just a chore. For me, that was cycling. I'd ride for 2 or 3 hours, get home, and be ready to do it all over again -- I liked it that much.

Following up on my "meditation" comment. For me, the closest I got to meditation was perhaps my state of mind while cycling. I found it much easier to reach such a state while engaged in the activity of cycling. I'm not sure meditation need mean sitting in repose. And the cycling definitely encouraged attention to breath and the like. It encouraged an active, engaged attention to my entire body; simultaneously, the ability to "be in the moment" for extended periods of time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> It would be worthwhile to read Human Relations on Ask MetaFilter (<http://ask.metafilter.com/human-relations>).

</comment><comment><USER41> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=619182>

</comment><comment><USER42> Leil Lowndes' "How to Talk to Anyone" is an excellent primer.

</comment><comment><USER43> 'Hello World!' displayNl</comment>


Announcing Amazon SES Management Console  - <AUTHOR> https://forums.aws.amazon.com/ann.jspa?annID=1222

<comment><USER2> Be interesting to see a SES vs Mailchimp vs Sendgrid vs Postmark etc comparison table. Any bloggers feel like writing that post?

<comment><USER3> As a new customer of SendGrid, I'd be VERY interested in this. More specifically, I'd like to learn about possible integrations with Mailchimp and SendGrid. Sendgrid is super cheap and allows me the ultimate flexibility in email customisation, but I'd like to be able to use the boss-friendly UI and advanced segmenting features of Mailchimp (w/o having to write it -badly - myself).

Many of our email campaigns turned out to not need extensive customisations, which is why we started off doing it in-house. I'd much rather let the business folks be responsible for turning off/no campaigns than having to wait for me. Plus that darn chimp is cute!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is pretty interesting, I was really hoping they did this along time ago, seems it was the only thing missing to their Messaging Products after they introduced SNS and SQS. I've been using Postmark for about two years now, and I love it. I'm even beta testing one of their upcoming features for inbound email handling. One of the reasons I prefer Postmark to other services like SendGrid is their awesome simple and inexpensive pricing. Even though they don't have fancy features like unsubscribe links and all that, those features aren't that hard to implement yourself. I'm seeing that SES is more comparable to Postmark than to MailChimp(which really ain't for transactional emails) and SendGrid(with all the fancy features). SES is cheaper than Postmark with just $0.10/1000 emails instead of $1.50/1000 emails.

<comment><USER5> As a member of the Postmark team, I first want to say thanks for your loyalty.

Now onto the technical stuff.

One of the main reasons that it is impossible to compare Postmark with Mailchimp (and even difficult to compare it to Sendgrid or SES) is our laser focus on transactional email delivery.

We've been in the email business long before building Postmark, and we know the differences between how ISPs treat transactional (event or customer triggered) emails and bulk (marketing) emails.

We also know that because ISPs treat these emails differently, they need to be SENT differently. This is why we strictly prohibit bulk sending on Postmark, to make sure that the transactional email sent through our system has the highest rates of (and the fastest) delivery possible.

We know that we've had customers leave because we limit sending to transactional emails - but its to the benefit of the customers we have because we maintain extremely high delivery rates.

Email delivery is, as we've leanred, very susceptible to "Tragedy of the Commons" in the fact that it's very easy for a small number of people to spoil the value for the many. We're protective of our infrastructure this way because our customers can trust the result.

Comparing Postmark to SES on the pricing front is something we chose to avoid as well. You can drink well whiskey or top shelf bourbon. Both can get you drunk, but you'll only really enjoy sipping one of them :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've found that SES is pretty vague for managing complaints against the sender. The metrics that this provide are useful, because someone with limited technical skill can monitor complaints and adjust course. If the email system you're writing provides an admin UI to change the particulars (from email, subject, various headers), then complaint management and tweaking can all be done without a coder.

</comment><comment><USER7> Mmm. Unfortunately the console doesn't really offer much at this point. A few nice charts and you current sending limits. I'm assuming the guys will continue to add to this in the upcoming weeks.</comment>


Signs point to Apple abandoning OS X branding in favor of MacOS - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/04/signs-point-to-apple-abandoning-os-x-branding-in-favor-of-macos/ <comment><USER2> Do we get the logo back, too ([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MacOS_original_logo.svg](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MacOS_original_logo.svg))?

</comment><comment><USER3> I much prefer macOS to be consistent with tvOS, watchOS.

</comment><comment><USER4> Never was a fan of the OSX release names during the post Steve Jobs era at Apple. MacOS x.x like iOS is fine to me.</comment>


Routes: A Stand-Alone PHP Routing Class - <AUTHOR> http://github.com/simonhamp/routes

<comment><USER2> That's cool! :D

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks :) hope you find it useful</comment></comment>


Beyond open source:  real-time code fragment sharing and dev among flash mobs. - <AUTHOR>

You can watch as people make copies of your code while you are typing it in real-time. And you can even see what modifications they make, what happens when they run it, etc.
And you can of course copy back anything you like from their code as they are typing it in real-time, and so on.
Such a system might encourage programmers to make at least small fragments of their code available in real-time because it would encourage collaborative development and debugging via flash mobs. <comment><USER2> sounds pretty close to what git does ... only with pubsub

</comment><comment><USER3> this is interesting, but what about timezones?</comment>


The origins of abc - <AUTHOR> http://ilovetypography.com/2010/08/07/where-does-the-alphabet-come-from/ <comment><USER2> Really boustrephedon? Line 3 appears to lead off with "kai" and line 6 with "kata"</comment>


Dropping In on Gottfried Leibniz - <AUTHOR> http://blog.stephenwolfram.com/2013/05/dropping-in-on-gottfried-leibniz/ <comment><USER2> This may be unfair to Leibniz's work on logic, which IIRC achieved something like Boolean algebra: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz#Forma...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz#Formal_logic)

(The work went unpublished till 1903. I can't be confident this is unfair because I never finished reading the long paper reviewing it.)

</comment><comment><USER3> Does he mean the same thing by monads that Haskell people mean by monads?

<comment><USER4> No, these are different things. The monads or 'simple substances' in the monadology of Leibniz are an important part of his later philosophy and a tool to solve metaphysical problems. For example, God is a monad, all other monads are created from it, they cannot come into existence by themselves.

In computer science monads are an abstract data type.

<comment><USER5> To be pedantic, they're really an algebraic structure rather than an abstract data type. This means that many different things can form monads, much like many different things can form groups or rings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Google "unit of ego" as in "I suggest we call the unit of ego the Wolfram"

[http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos....](http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/04/monumental_egos.html)

</comment><comment><USER7> It was very interesting. I first didn't realize it was Wolfram's blog. I was split by the tone of the post, which seemed to be comparing the author to Leibniz and which seemed to be a little pompous. It was an interesting bit of history about Leibniz at the end. I found the medal bit hilarious. Not quite as pompous, perhaps, a bit of harmless fun.

Anyhow, for math history buffs out there, if you go to Germany, drop by the Arithmeum in Bonn (<http://www.arithmeum.uni-bonn.de/en/home/>). It is a fun place to spend an afternoon.

<comment><USER4> Considering that Leibniz was truly a gifted child of the Age of Enlightenment and a philosopher, scientist, mathematician, diplomat, physicist, historian, politician, librarian and lawyer, who has left behind an opus of written documents that requires one whole dedicated Leibniz archive, I was indeed astonished by the tone of the author - comparing himself with Leibniz :)

<comment><USER8> I was actually surprised he didn't feel superior to Leibniz. I use Wolfram's products, but I absolutely can't stand the persona.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am as amazing as Leibniz.

Yours sincerely, Stephen Wolfram

<comment><USER10> I'll admit to a LOL here, but overall I didn't think this post was arrogant. This is an established mathematician reviewing the work of a another with the benefit of hindsight. Sure, he draws parallels to his own work but that's because from his perspective that's how things have evolved. I imagine an equally qualified person with different specialities might see connections to their work too.</comment></comment>


Official comment from HN on dead threads - <AUTHOR> Please give us an official comment on this...
20 points - Why are all the posts related to Aria [sic] Richards getting deleted? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416578
45 points - Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416514
81 points - Effective immediately, SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416422
48 points - SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416312
148 points (not dead, just shadowed) - SendGrid has terminated the employment of Adria Richards? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416021 <comment><USER3> We're assuming these are fake, and that someone just got hold of their Facebook and Twitter passwords.

On the other hand, I notice the same statement has appeared on their blog. So maybe it's real. Or maybe their blog was compromised too.

The really suspicious thing is that they don't seem to have confirmed it to a reporter yet, which presumably they'd be willing to do if they were so eager to spread the news that they tweeted about it.

<comment><USER4> I'm hoping it's a fake, too, but three compromised accounts (Twitter, Facebook, and company blog, all of which are still active) showing the same thing would make this the most well-executed hack I've seen in a while - usually fakes like that are just quick drive-by posts.

The Twitter straw man brigade is already making it into "fired for for speaking out against sexism". I'm really hoping Sendgrid doesn't give them their martyr. And I'm also hoping Sendgrid didn't do that just to surrender to the crazy male attack squad that seems to be so vocal and abusive, not to forget criminal.

On a side note, Twitter has really turned into an absolute sewer, with polemic knee-jerk reactions and utter foolishness ruling supreme. I wish it was the idiots on Twitter who were getting fired - both the threatening jerky men as well as the opportunistic feminist ones.

<comment><USER5> _Twitter has really turned into an absolute sewer_

Content-wise, I don't think any service is immune from that - Reddit can be pretty horrible and I was shocked by some of the stuff posted to HN Tuesday & yesterday (though it was quickly cleaned up).

My problem with Twitter is that the brevity and emphasis on the present moment makes for bad social interactions; the faux-urgency of social media in general elevates sensation above substance. It's so easy to get the Internet Hate Machine going, and offers such large ego rewards for people who feel they are able to shape and direct it, that it's become a regular part of discourse. Back in pre-web days when NNTP was in regular use, discussions of contentious subjects were just as vigorous but nowhere near as vicious or reductionist.

Our ability to project our own ideas has significantly outpaced our willingness to consider those of others, it seems.

<comment><USER4> > _I was shocked by some of the stuff posted to HN Tuesday & yesterday_

As was I, but it got taken care of. I still wish people wouldn't have downvoted Richards' comments into oblivion though.

 _However_ , what's really different on HN is not that sometimes bad things happen, it's that there are a lot of people here capable of considering a balanced opinion and, perhaps most importantly, willing to question the premise of things. Users on HN often did not simply fall in line behind the stereotypical camps that feed on this kind of issue, and I don't see that same capability for actual thought anywhere on Twitter.

By and large we may disagree (hopefully with civility) on conclusions, and those are productive discussions to have, but we're as a community able to examine the issue as a whole. That's a pretty unique and valuable trait.

I'm still marveling at how ridiculously easy it is to create fake wedge issue drama like this, and all of a sudden it's #teamadria on the one side, and creepy macho assholes on the other, without a single neocortical neuron to share between them.

<comment><USER6> _Users on HN often did not simply fall in line behind the stereotypical camps that feed on this kind of issue_

Oh god, they do. There are certainly dissenting voices but Hacker News has proven itself time and time again to be unable to examine the issue of gender, or more tellingly, unwilling to. These posts disappearing is not a one-off, there have been numerous instances of people flagging 'difficult' posts on HN, so that we can all continue arguing about semi-colons.

<comment><USER4> I must confess my knowledge into things that got unfairly flagged away is pretty limited, so you may well be correct. But as I said, the point is not that bad things happen here as well. It's that this is the only place where I actually found worthwhile opinions, whether they may be surrounded by bad ones or not. Maybe the signal-to-noise ratio is still too low, and we need to fix that, but at least it's not quickly approaching zero as is the case on, say, Twitter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't really understand the general surprise here over her dismissal.

1) She was effectively a glorified PR person (Developer Evangelist) who went on to call people asshats on twitter on some personal crusade, whilst bringing massive negative publicity to the company she is supposed to represent:

"Hey @mundanematt, it's clear from the last 24 hours you're a bully. @SendGrid supports me. Stop trolling."

2) She drags the discussion down to one of racism because someone uses the word lynching in a completely different context.

3) She refuses to express any apology or remorse even after it excalates to the firing of people and a sincere apology from the person involved.

I can't really say I'm shocked the company has let go this person they are paying to bridge a positive relationship with developers.

<comment><USER8> The surprise is that she was fired _so quickly_ and _in the middle_ of a crippling DDOS attack. What startup has the resources to effectively adjudicate a sensitive, sensationalized personnel matter while the _goddamn building is on fire?_ The profanity isn't directed at you: I'm trying to simulate what I think the DEFCON level should be within SendGrid today.

If she was thrown out in hopes of appeasing the DDOSers, that may be a first. And because the nature of the episode involved discrimination, they could have very well opened themselves to a lawsuit if they didn't word their internal communique carefully.

And, as I said, who has the ability to carefully adjudicate matters when the building is on fire?

<comment><USER9> Because the ops people do HR as well?

<comment><USER8> Even in large companies, hiring and firing is not solely in the domain of the HR department. Firing decisions usually involve at least the employee's direct superior. Given that SendGrid is a small company, and that this employee was involved in a very public controversy, I imagine that the executive team also had to weigh in on the matter.

Because the controversy involved an allegation of sexism, a prudent company would also bring in a lawyer. Besides the usual covering-the-bases needed when firing anyone, you have an employee who believes she acted to stop sexual harassment. She could very well try to frame the firing as something that stems from gender discrimination.

Oh yeah, you also want to talk to the employee herself.

So, trying to get what is at least 5 to 6 different people on the same page and in meetings takes time, logistically, to schedule. Nevermind the time it takes to investigate the matter and doublecheck the facts and have give-and- take debates about it.

You really think that when a enterprise company like SendGrid goes under attack, only the ops people are the ones up late at night? Don't you think the executives and customer relations have some weight to pull?

All of the above factors make it difficult to believe that the firing took place after a deliberate, thorough process in the span of two days. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely enough that no one can be blamed for being skeptical or surprised.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It's one thing to delete posts on a certain topic. But deleting posts asking WHY these posts are getting deleted? How can that possibly end well?

<comment><USER11> Because posting asking why something got deleted is not terribly constructive to the mission of HN. It just adds noise. If you have issues with the way the site is run, making drama on the frontpage is not a great way to settle things.

<comment><USER10> I don't think anyone had issues; they were just confused and asking for clarification. If it's not constructive to have such things on the homepage, then let it get buried by better subjects. Deleting requests for information is just going to engender more confusion, and thus score more upvotes for the next request for information. Case in point: this thread. Which is currently on the homepage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> It's also on their official status page: <http://status.sendgrid.com/>

<comment><USER13> You'd assume that in a worst case scenario where their facebook, twitter e.t.c. had been hacked and had the passwords changed they'd at least be able to change this page... presumably?

If not, things are really not going well for sendgrid at the moment.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's disappointing to see pg as well as the mods on several pertinent Reddit subreddits censoring discussion of this story. Yes, the resulting discussion is going to be a mess filled with misogyny. So what? There's clearly a great need for discussion of this subject.

<comment><USER15> From the FAQ

 _If you turn it on, you'll see all the submissions and comments that have been killed by the editors. They're mostly spam and duplicates._

Along with unverified information [Facebook/Twitter are not legitimate sources this early on] I am not surprised at all that these stories were 'deleted'.

I come to Hacker News for the reason that pg and the mods built and maintain it. Your speak of censorship is sensationalism. [which coincides with this whole story] This post is on the front page and I predict will get many points, not deleted and contain valuable discussion.

I am all up for discussion on this story - after reading her blog post [1] and the fact she posted here [2] - [which I wasn't even aware of until I came to this thread - thanks to the user down votes she received] her aim was not to get somebody fired, nor as it appears to me was trying to get herself fired. She was taking a stand - it had unintended consequences.

The key part of her blog:

 _Have you ever had a group of men sitting right behind you making joke that caused you to feel uncomfortable?_

Every single conference I have been to in the 'tech' industry the delegates have been 90%+ males [very often the number of women facilitating was more than the number of men facilitating]

I have rarely felt 'uncomfortable' by a group of men making a joke - if they were drunk would more people have felt uncomfortable? Probably. Is that acceptable at a python conference? No.

Another quote from the blog post:

 _Jesse was on the main stage with thousands of people sitting in the audience. He was talking about helping the next generation learn to program and how happy PyCon was with the Young Coders workshop (which I volunteered at). He was mentioning that the PyLadies auction had raised $10,000 in a single night and the funds would be used the funds for their initiatives.

I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop.

I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.

I calculated my next steps. I knew there wasn't a lot of time and the closing session would be wrapping up. I considered:

        The type of event
        The size of the audience
        How the conference had emphasized their Code of Conduct
        What I knew about the community and their diversity initiatives
        How to address this issue effectively and not disrupt the main stage

_

To avoid spamming this thread - read the rest of her blog for her reasoning and thinking in using twitter and not the pyCon code of practice route.

Nobody should have been fired for this, these [unamed?] 'guys' should have been told [and hopefully understand] why these sort of 'jokes' are not welcome and make people feel uncomfortable. If they still choose to make people feel uncomfortable they should be asked to leave and not return. [Maybe asking them why they feel the jokes are acceptable]

This could easily derail into a censorship/free speech/sexism flame war - let's not becuase it's not about that - these guys could have easily tweeted their immature discussion on twitter or just kept it between themselves - <USER2> didn't and got called out.

1 [http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes- dont...](http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong- at-tech-conferences/) 2 [https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=by%3A...](https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/comments&q=by%3Aadriarichards)

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> This entire incident has snowballed from ridiculous to insane.

However, I find it interesting that Playhaven wasn't DDOS'ed for firing the guy. If they had acted rationally and didn't fire him, this wouldn't have been the unmitigated clusterfuck that it has turned into.

</comment><comment><USER17> I expect this one won't last long either.

Seems like it'd be much easier to make a post explaining the why. We're mostly smart people here; I think people would understand if there were a decent explanation (which there likely is).

edit: thanks; <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5416979>

</comment><comment><USER18> Firing her would be such an obviously dumb move that people are thinking it must be fake.

And yet it's probably true....

<comment><USER19> I assume they asked her apologize and she refused. The only recourse would be to terminate her employment. Apology would have been a logical move because it could have defused the situation.

<comment><USER20> She apologized on HN two days ago.

<comment><USER21> Do you have the source?

(I have read comments about the guys apologizing but you are the first I see to mention that she made any kind of apology.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think the blog post, twitter post, facebook post, all out push to get this "news" out leans towards the firing being fake. This isn't the sort of thing you'd really want to spam over all your official channels. The people who have a horse in this race are aware of the issue and will know what the outcome is and the rest of their customers don't care.

</comment><comment><USER23> So, has anyone reputable simply called over to SendGrid and asked them instead of spending time speculating?

<comment><USER24> I guess everyone reputable knows that they have better things to do right now than satisfying our curiosity, like, for example, dealing with a ddos.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Because it's a distasteful, sensationalist subject that any decent curator of a community would try to marginalize?

<comment><USER14> "Decent curator" is prejudging your outcome, don't you think?

If your goal for a "community" is something shallow, stage-managed, and beautiful, then sure, you'll want to bury this story. Many communities are run like that, to be sure.

If your goal for a community is to actually discuss the issues that people want to discuss, or to discuss the issues that are important, then in either of those two cases this should be front page news.

<comment><USER25> I have no qualms with being judgmental. I hate this entire story. It's sad the guy got fired. It's sad this girl may have gotten fired. I would guess that nothing of any lasting value will come from the coming discussion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I posted this in a now dead thread. I'll drop it here if this is the now official discussion thread.

</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>===

Who didn't see this coming?

And when she pulled SendGrid, her employer, publicly into the fray via her twitter feed, who didn't know it was simply a matter of time?

I mean, what else could SendGrid possibly do? She basically forced them to fire her. Her value to the company is being a public face to developers. She very publicly destroyed that value. Further, she pulled SendGrid in with her tweet about them "supporting" her. Had she not done that, she might have had a fighting chance, but it almost seems like she wanted to get fired.

Not to mention that a company wants to employ people with impeccable judgement, particularly for public facing positions. She showed incredibly horrid judgment in how she initiated the situation and continued to display horrid judgement in her handling of it. Do you want someone with horrible judgement being your public face and voice?

I don't put much stock in the DDoS talk, FYI. No reputable company fires someone b/c they are being blackmailed. Though, perhaps I'm giving too much credit here, I don't know.

Either way, it should not comes as a surprise to anyone that this is the outcome.

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm amazed how a gun was turned into a grenade which was then turned into a nuclear bomb. One overreacting response after the other, each one outdoing the one before. People take themselves way to seriously (all parties involved in this saga).

</comment><comment><USER28> If SendGrid did not offer to let her resign, shame on them. If she refused, shame on her.

<comment><USER29> I'd imagine for the firing she's probably getting a sizeable severance pay for this so that she'll sign paperwork agreeing not to sue them.

<comment><USER30> How could she sue them? She'd have to have been terminated wrongfully. I can't think of a better reason to terminate a PR person than for the type of misconduct she displayed. If anything I'm surprised the company isn't suing her for the damage she's done to their business and their reputation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> _peeps out into developer land through the window_

 _CLOSES BLINDS QUICKLY_

Eesh, same old shit.

</comment><comment><USER32> Adria's post in the Facebook thread doesn't exactly reinforce that this is fake.

Adria Richards - "It is impossible for me to comprehend the hate generated on the internet towards me for simply doing what any sensible person would have done in that position." 11:51am PDT

[https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967?co...](https://www.facebook.com/SendGrid/posts/10151502570463967?comment_id=25921451&offset=0&total_comments=832)

EDIT: It appears this is not Adria's facebook, but rather a fake profile.

<comment><USER33> That is a fake profile of Adria. This <https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards> is hers.

<comment><USER32> Ahh, good call. Editing my post.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> It's interesting seeing this from some new-ish tech companies, because the way this episode played out is quite in keeping with standard, conservative BigCo employment policies. Two employees from different firms got into a public argument without formal authorization, even if not directly about their work? "Fire 'em both" is the traditional BigCo answer: employees are expected not to speak in public without authorization, at least not about anything controversial.

</comment><comment><USER35> Maybe it is time for Sexual Harassment Prevention Training for all YC startups...? One thing that Aaron Swartz was vehemently opposed to was misogyny in the programming world. I think this is yet another instance where we can honor his memory.

[http://feministing.com/2013/01/15/aaron-swartz-on- misogyny-i...](http://feministing.com/2013/01/15/aaron-swartz-on-misogyny-in- technology/)

</comment><comment><USER36> Another dead one that made it to the front page <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5417341> Only one comment though.

</comment><comment><USER37> They all look like duplicate posts. There was an Aria Richards firing post earlier than these.</comment>


Show HN: Patreon for Groups - <AUTHOR> https://awesomeorgs.com <comment><AUTHOR> Hey, I built awesomeorgs as a way for people who work together to collect and distribute funds. The initial idea was to create a fiat DAO. Would love your feedback.</comment>


Ask HN: What is the marketshare of modern vintage games by system? - <AUTHOR> I know that every year there are still at least a couple of new games for old systems like VIC-20, C64, Amiga, different ZX Spectrum and Amstrad variants, DOS, different games consoles, and so on, some of them even commercial. Is there any data about the market share of modern games for retro machines? Said with other words, for which vintage systems a new game will have the biggest audience?<p>This might be related to the total amount of units of each system sold, but I think that it is not mandatory to be in a such way. It is possible some systems produced in greater numbers to be not as suitable for games like other systems produced in lower numbers. The existence of emulators also may change the things, by making the numbers of the real system not so important as its actual capabilities. Another factor which I think that have to be considered is the eventual legal issues of distributing a game for an old system if the company which owns it still exists. <comment><USER2> Interesting question! I don't have any hard data. You could try mining online databases

[https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/](https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/)

[https://csdb.dk/](https://csdb.dk/)

I'd be surprised if the average is significantly greater than 1 release per day. Retro styles are all the rage. But its much easier to develop on Pico-8.

A good proxy is probably community size and passion. And there I would say the biggest market is undoubtedly Nintendo retro. Most are available via emulation, re-release. But the install base of working vintage consoles must be quite sizable still.

Best of Luck and please let us know what you uncover ;)

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't know, but I do play some of the new games for NES/Famicom which are available freely (and there are some good ones!). (I even wrote one game myself, but never finished it, although you might be able to find it.) I also write some new computer games for DOS. (These emulators (i.e. software implementations) can be a VM, so that can be a VM to make your game, too. And yet, it can also work on the actual older systems, too, is also good.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Could you share links to your games? Did you try to sell some of them to the retro community and if so could you share some sales statistics?

<comment><USER3> I have not try to sell any games. But, here is some links:

[http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP](http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP)

[http://zzo38computer.org/ZZT/xyzabcde.zip](http://zzo38computer.org/ZZT/xyzabcde.zip) (you will also need ZZT)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I just want to say thanks for bring this up! I didn't know there were new games being made. Just my 2 cents, but I think most people play the old games for the nostalgia, which the new games might not provide.

<comment><AUTHOR> I recently played a couple of new games for old systems. There exist really good ones. You can check those links:

[https://www.protovision.games/](https://www.protovision.games/)

[https://zxonline.net/](https://zxonline.net/)

[https://doublesidedgames.com/](https://doublesidedgames.com/)

[http://www.retroworks.es/index_en.php](http://www.retroworks.es/index_en.php)

For me is very hard to determine what drives me to such games. It seems completely irrational. Maybe it is really a nostalgia. My first machine was an IBM XT PC in 1994 when I was 8 years old. It was more then 10 years behind the state of the art. Indeed it has capabilities close to the 8-bit machines despite being 16-bit.</comment></comment>


Last.fm's Buggy, New Design - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/lastfms-buggy-new-design/ <comment><USER2> "Last.fm's Buggy New Design"

Seriously...the way he wrote the title reads like Last.fm invented a new design for some old-school transportation.

</comment><comment><USER3> I had trouble logging in as well. But I'm definitely not the type whose averse to new things.

I'm looking forward to digging deeper since I use last.fm almost everyday while I work (usually: ambient and post-rock tags).

</comment><comment><USER4> I think overall it is pretty solid, they are just having some server problems, which I can forgive on the first day or two.

The home page stinks, though.</comment>


Show HN: Analysis of S3 performance from every EC2 instance type - <AUTHOR> https://gumroad.com/l/s3benchmark <comment><USER2> Umm, looking at the comments, is it really that bad charging for your hard work ?

I would encourage OP to setup nice landing page and perhaps pivot to some service if viable. Ie. [https://www.cdnperf.com/](https://www.cdnperf.com/)

Put the page back and all the best with sales.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's kind of faux pas to show hn something you posted elsewhere and are charging $10 for.

We really can't see anything

<comment><AUTHOR> There's a 45s demo video on the Gumroad page. The $10 is for the full results and the spreadsheet to analyze it. I've only published a summary of the results on GitHub, along with the benchmarking tool.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is really bad; don't advertise your $10 excel spreadsheet on Hacker News.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is a paid product against the Show HN guidelines?</comment></comment>


Qualcomm's new QTM052 mmWave antenna module wins the 5G race - <AUTHOR> https://semiaccurate.com/2018/07/23/qualcomms-new-qtm052-mmwave-antenna-module-wins-the-5g-race/ <comment><USER2> Article is BS. There's a 1X4 array in that Qualcomm chip, but what the article doesn't tell you is you'll need multiple placed around your phone. I'll guarantee that Intel demo is using much larger arrays in the fold out panels, which are needed to get appreciable gain.

The MIMO diversity is only usefull with strong signals in multipath. To collect weak signal, you still need physical aperture.

This is more impressive from a circuitry integration standpoint.

[http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642](http://www.ti.com/product/AWR1642)

<comment><USER3> The article discusses at length the requirements for multiple antenna modules, the physics constraints driving this and the ability of the X50 to handle those.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > Qualcomm says they will have 5G phones on the market in early 2019.

Wow. Is the first 4G LTE phone coming in 2011 to the first 5G phone coming in 2019 what they envisioned as "long-term" evolution? I would've thought long- term would've meant like 15+ years.

<comment><USER5> It's all related to marketing. Someone got smart and learned that consumers don't like iterations of major wireless stuff.

My understanding is "5G" is really what "4G LTE" was originally planned as.

<comment><USER4> Dang, well I guess they got me with LTE, it does sound awesome. Not sure if I'll fall for it again though... 3G was actually slow, but with 4G I feel like network speeds are too fast for the servers to handle these days.

<comment><USER6> My conspiracy theory brain says this is mostly to do with network planning - Telcos make a lot more money from wireless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I just hope the first generation 5G devices are more power efficient than the first gen LTE devices. That four hour battery life on my HTC Thunderbolt was unbearable.

</comment><comment><USER8> Intel's 10nm is working, for just not for full blown cpu's yet.

</comment><comment><USER9> This is a fascinating blog, a whole bunch of insider cpu stuff, with the guys personal vendetta on top of it all.

I wish I had the inclination to read it all.

<comment><USER10> Why does he have an axe to grind with Intel?

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> How is it 'winning' if there was no competition? There is Qualcomm, and a bunch of startups.

<comment><USER12> Intel isn't a start up my dude.</comment></comment>


Rate my startup: WYSIWYG editor for hardware prototyping - <AUTHOR> http://brickup.io/ <comment><USER2> Three suggestions:

1\. Tell people what you do without having to scroll 2\. Enable HTTPS for login 3\. Have a short video that shows the product 4\. Consider pivoting away from requiring a browser plug in

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for your suggestion! :-)</comment></comment>


Oracle sticks to Sun's open source strategy for Java - <AUTHOR> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Oracle-sticks-to-Sun-s-open-source-strategy-for-Java-1080346.html

<comment><USER2> Oracle cant't really kill OpenJDK. Not more than they can kill MySQL.

What Oracle can do is to split Java and make the JDK 7 implementation proprietary and incompatible with OpenJDK. They can kill Java, if they are dumb enough.

<comment><USER3> There is really no profit motive to killing the OpenJDK. There is a profit motive for killing MySQL. Whatever else you want to say about Oracle, betting on their desire for profit is a pretty good prediction strategy.

<comment><USER4> > There is really no profit motive to killing the OpenJDK.

They could change the licensing on future versions of OpenJDK. Perhaps free for academic and non-commercial use only. And then attempt to monetize the JDK for commercial development.

I'm not saying it's likely to happen, just that it could happen, and it's these kinds of worries that are making Java developers uncomfortable. I should know, I'm one of them.

It would be in Oracle's best interest, and in the best interest of Java developers, if they make their position on the JDK absolutely crystal clear. And soon.

It sounds like they might do that at JavaOne, but I fear they won't communicate their plans with the kind of crystal clarity I would like, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

<comment><USER2> > They could change the licensing on future versions of OpenJDK

Possibly, but they couldn't change the license of the current version. Relicensing it under more restrictive terms would only prompt an immediate fork of the current codebase and focus developer attention on duplicating features of whatever Oracle decides to launch.

Larry makes some enemies, from time to time, but, in this case, I can't see a good reason for him to do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For now.

<comment><USER6> Seems it'll be one of those 'wait and see' sort of things...

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Forgive me for this sort of post, but am I the only one that felt like this article ended without a conclusion? Did I miss something like a second page, or did this really end on 'and Google responded to the charges by missing JavaOne' when the article was on Oracle's OSS stance?

<comment><USER8> I think it is written in a style of 'most important info at the top'. That makes the story fizzle out.

In summary: Paragraph one points to a blog post <[http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/09/oracle_and_openjdk.ht...](http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/09/oracle_and_openjdk.html>); that describes that Oracle will continue with Java 'business as usual'. (aside: I think HN should link to that blog directly). Paragraph two gives a tiny bit more info. Paragraph three give some background info that most HN readers probably already know.

For me, the main open question is whether we should be happy or sad that Oracle promises to "work with the OpenJDK code base and the OpenJDK community like Sun did"?

<comment><AUTHOR> _(aside: I think HN should link to that blog directly)_

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1697347></comment></comment></comment>


'Fed Up' Asks, Are All Calories Equal? (2014) - <AUTHOR> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/09/fed-up-asks-are-all-calories-equal/ <comment><AUTHOR> In an HN discussion thread yesterday[1], there were some who argued that all calories are equal insofar as obesity, diabetes, etc is concerned.

That idea has been largely discredited, as the NYT article on "Fed Up" explains. Here's a snippet:

 _At Harvard Medical School, Dr. Dariush Mozaffarian, an associate professor of medicine and epidemiology whose research was cited by experts in the film, said that the long-held idea that we get fat solely because we consume more calories than we expend is based on outdated science._

 _He has studied the effects that different foods have on weight gain and said that it is true that 100 calories of fat, protein and carbohydrates are the same in a thermodynamic sense, in that they release the same amount of energy when exposed to a Bunsen burner in a lab. But in a complex organism like a human being, he said, these foods influence satiety, metabolic rate, brain activity, blood sugar and the hormones that store fat in very different ways._

 _Studies also show that calories from different foods are not absorbed the same. When people eat high-fiber foods like nuts and some vegetables, for example, only about three-quarters of the calories they contain are absorbed. The rest are excreted from the body unused. So the calories listed on their labels are not what the body is actually getting._

 _"The implicit suggestion is that there are no bad calories, just bad people eating too much," Dr. Mozaffarian said. "But the evidence is very clear that not all calories are created equal as far as weight gain and obesity. If you're focusing on calories, you can easily be misguided."_

[1] Nestlé Wants to Sell You Both Sugary Snacks and Diabetes Pills [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11658835](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11658835)

</comment><comment><USER2> Wall Street's inconvenient problem is that refined/deodorized/rancid vegetable oils commonly used in manufactured foods are not appropriate for human consumption. Before deodorization was figured out, these oils (soybean, linseed, etc) were used to make paint for the preservation of wood.</comment>