CNC milling with open source software - <AUTHOR> https://opensource.com/article/19/1/cnc-milling-open-source-software <comment><USER2> If you're interested in Open-Source CNC you should check out two of my Open- Source projects. [https://camotics.org/](https://camotics.org/) a CNC simulator and [https://buildbotics.com/](https://buildbotics.com/) a CNC controller. I'm somewhat surprised neither of these were mentioned.

<comment><USER3> Is there any reason why CNC machines aren't directly controlled by CAM software, beyond it always having been done that way?

I'd think it would be useful to integrate the two, instead of the CAM software just firing-and-forgetting toolpaths.

<comment><USER4> (I have built and worked on a lot of CNC mills, routers, etc)

In some cases, it is.

There are integrated CAM + Machines depending on industry and price point. (see woodwop, etc, which are the interface to the machine)

The motion planning aspects can be taken care of (despite other comments), beckhoff, for example, does real time plc on windows machines by isolating cpus away from windows. i have no problem using it as a plc. They also support CNC control.

Outside of software like that, it's usually being taken care of by an FPGA card and that's a pain in the butt. Assume you can solve this.

You still have the next problem: Actually driving the machine.

First, the low level

Most of the servos in these machines are using pulse train inputs of some sort. That's what the FPGA cards are doing, generating the pulse outputs, etc.

It's only in the past 5 years that things like "drive my servo over ethercat instead" became viable.

They use simple relays, etc to control safety/limit switches/you name it.

Now i could use an ethernet based field-io. So i'd say they are actually now _there_ (in the past 5 years) for the low level. I can run all my field io/spindles/servos off ethercat now, for example. I do, in fact, outside of servos (my cnc software can't drive them over ethercat yet)!

5 years ago i couldn't do this.

Okay, so that's one level up. Now i can at least _drive_ it from the CAM software in some standardized way if i knew what was what. Which is your next problem - knowing what anything does. Which io's are the limit switches. How do you home the machine or execute a tool change? How do i turn on the vacuum? Which drives go with what axes?

There is no standardized way of describing _this_ , such that a piece of CAM software could actually do anything.

We'll get there, mind you, but it'll be a while.

<comment><USER5> Low-level control your machine from your CAM workstation in the office building will never make much sense (where the CAM software directly talks to servos).

I would prefer my (probably expensive) machine to kind of "know" what it's physical limits are and guarantee that executed commands adhere to them.

<comment><USER4> It depends on what you are talking about here. CNC is used for a _lot_.

The assumption that there is a cam workstation, and that it's in an office building, is certainly not one i would make. I wouldn't also say "will never make much sense".

You seem to have some particular set of users in mind for which you believe it wouldn't make sense. Okay - i'm not sure that changes that there are plenty of sets of users for which it will?

I even gave you examples of high end wood machines that have CAM directly integrated. There are many.

(They can also be programmed offline, but)

As for "knowing" the physical limits.

That's not actually possible since it there is no way to self-configure it even if everything did talk to each other. They don't know their own physical orientations (and it would be very expensive/hard to do that, and you'd still be guessing in the end)

Most of the non-safety/accessory programming is essentially explaining enough of the physical orientation and placement of things to the motion control that it can do something.

<comment><USER5> English is not my first language, so forgive me if I'm a bit ambiguous, it's not the intention.

CAM workstation (running some "generic" CAM package with machine specific configuration) in some office building was the precondition, in that case it will never make much sense to control a machine's servos from that workstation, in my opinion.

Integrating the CAM within the machine itself is something else, and yes, stuff like that existed for very long time, but that is something completely different IMHO.

The machine controller "knows" the physical limits because somebody configured it (and "locked" it). It would be hard to guarantee the integrity of this configuration if you put it on an arbitrary workstation to run CAM and machine control.

<comment><USER6> There will always be some sort of interface between CAM and other design tools and the physical apparatus to execute assembly. I think we're all just being pedantic in this thread; is it likely you're going to hook your workstation directly to the multi-axis mill? No. Is it more likely we're going to have some sort of queue and bus that'll allow you to send more complex instruction sets to assembly systems? I think so (based on my interaction with a firm who is doing this for high precision additive manufacturing). What that looks like is going to depend on the complexity of your shop floor, and manufacturing demands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> CNC is programming "for keeps".

Any tiny little error in your gcode has a chance to crash the machine. Unlike a computer crash, a CNC crash results in broken metal flying across the room and anywhere from $5- to $5000 in damage. I programmed for a heavy machine shop for a year before I gave up and went back to making websites.

Hobby CNC is fun though, it is amazing what you can make out of wood when you can shape it with sub-millimeter precision. Also hobby machines are not strong enough to cause serious damage when you crash.

<comment><USER8> Is there no way to test? Or there is, just not everything?

<comment><USER9> The best shops use simulation tools, but you need the 3D models / configurations of everything to make them work, and then the machinist still needs to load everything correctly. It's very easy to make a mistake.

Check out a simulator here: [https://www.ncsimul.com/](https://www.ncsimul.com/)

<comment><USER5> There are machines that are "self-aware" in the sense that they run a simulation parallel to the NC control, slightly advanded in time, to catch catastrophic crashes and ESTOP the machine. Cutting into the machine bed can be _very_ expensive.

<comment><USER9> Which machines are you referring to?

How aware? Do they have any vision? Can they "see" or otherwise "know" about the cutters / workholding?

<comment><USER5> I know of WFL millturns with crashguard.

AFAIK the crash guard is a separate component that relies on 3d models of the machine and the tools, it doesn't see anything.

If you workholding is weak and a piece comes loose the crash guard probably won't make a difference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I work with the smoothieware project (hardware QA). It is an opensource motion control firmware and openhardware control board which works with 3d printers, lasers, mills, etc. Initially based on GRBL and runs on ARM (LPC1769).

The openhardware scene has advanced quite nicely in the last 5 years. There are many very nice projects out there to build from which are largely able to be built at home with parts which can be made locally and/or purchased online. Openbuilds is a good place to start if you are interested.

I always try to remind people...whether it is 3d printers, mills, lasers...the knowledge gain from building/breaking/rebuilding your machine far outweighs the small gain you get from simply operating one. I have never printed an object as interesting to me as it was to create and design an entire working machine from scratch.

If anyone is interested in openhardware projects I recommend checking out reprap.org , smoothieware.org , openbuilds.com as well as several other projects which I am sure you will stumble upon through research on those sites.

There are many opensource CAD/CAM software packages out there which allow you to pick and choose what you like. I personally use Fusion360 for most of my CAD/CAM stuff (I know...not Opensource) and for 3d printing my personal favorite is Slic3r.

<comment><USER11> I re-implemented (most of) TPLang (mentioned above) in pure JS , and called it openjscam [1] And am working on open source software for CAM (as a hobby), just 2.5D gcode generators, using maker.js and openjscam [2]. And made opencamlib compile on Mac and Windows (and added basic Node.JS bindings) [3]

I am hoping more people will work on open source g-code generators so we have better alternatives to Fusion 360 / Solidworks for free

[1] [http://github.com/makercam/openjscam](http://github.com/makercam/openjscam) [2] [http://github.com/makercam](http://github.com/makercam) [3] [https://github.com/aewallin/opencamlib](https://github.com/aewallin/opencamlib)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> For controlling your machine there is LinuxCNC (formerly Enhanced Machine Controller, created at NIST) [http://www.linuxcnc.org](http://www.linuxcnc.org) and the fork MachineKit [http://www.machinekit.io/](http://www.machinekit.io/)

Also, latest FreeCAD has a CAM module ("Path workbench") that has come a long way and really is useful.

</comment><comment><USER12> G-code is the most hilariously bad language. Keywords are G + a number, e.g. G01, with wildly different effects, varying arg lists and no standard. E.g. G01 move to position, G20 set the machine units to inches. Its often stateful.

Obviously its coz its old and works, but i chuckle everytime i have to look up the codes at how comically awful it is compared to anything else i see

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-code)

<comment><USER13> What would a good G-Code variant look like? For all its flaws, it's pretty good at encoding the exact thing you want the CNC machine to do and while there certainly are different post-processors for different machines and in most cases they're not optional, it's also not like they're entirely different.

I think of G-code as ASM. For high-performance work you might write code differently for different (related) machines, but it's still a pretty OK compilation target.

<comment> onmai-xyz A good G-Code variant would roll up the un-rolled loops and separate the geometry data from the tool config data. This is what the view of a CAM IDE presents, G-Code source can be structured the same. If you change the semantics on some of the syntax you get lexically scoped blocks, macro-b subsystem which has existed for decades needs to be fully utilized for this to happen.

A fully implemented system would provide the CAM GUI engineer and the CNC CLI machinist to work on the same file, skipping post-processing entirely.

And, finally implement what was originally envisioned but not possible on even the most powerful mainframes of the late 50's: [https://youtu.be/ob9NV8mmm20](https://youtu.be/ob9NV8mmm20)

<comment><USER13> Eventually, something actuates a servo, and servos don't understand iteration. Do you agree eventually something with g-codes level of detail must exist (even if it's just unspecified internal commands)? If so, do you agree you're just advocating for that layer to be part of the machine?

<comment> onmai-xyz Speaking from user space that has G65 macro-b option, not machine tool builder (sudo) space.

>I think of G-code as ASM.

>Eventually, something actuates a servo, and servos don't understand iteration.

I think of it more as an intermediate language. Interpreted on the CNC control and JIT compiled to whatever the RT system needs for servo control.

>Do you agree eventually something with g-codes level of detail must exist (even if it's just unspecified internal commands)?

It does exist and a strict subset with enough primitives to bootstrap an application VM should continue to exist.

>If so, do you agree you're just advocating for that layer to be part of the machine?

I am advocating for a DSL one layer up to be part of the CNC machine with support offline in say the JVM.

I want to answer this question, "how do we deploy MBE?" [https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/04/model- based-...](https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/04/model-based- enterprise-summit-2019)

The answer needs to be a single digital file that can render real parts and virtual parts. Why not?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Even though I love 3d-printing, and designing/building machines, I would not build a small CNC like that from scratch. Since you get better machines for <200 USD that runs open source firmware (grbl) out of the box. Recently got one of them for PCB milling, a CNC 3018 Pro

<comment><USER15> I've been eyeballing the CNC 3018 Pro for a few weeks now. I would appropriate any input you have on the device. Pros/cons/alternatives I should look at. Anything!

<comment><USER16> If you've the budget for it, a Shapeoko3 is way more capable.

[https://carbide3d.com/shapeoko/](https://carbide3d.com/shapeoko/)

:)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I got into CNC milling about 9 months ago. SVG to 2.5D problems are easy, and get you to a lot of cute solutions, its about as close to the work flow of 3D printers as you can get.

But the really interesting stuff is when you get to CAM. Multiple tool paths, genuine 3D cutting. Moving the work between paths etc. Its like going from juggling 3 balls (2.5d) to 5 balls (3D).

I haven't seen any competitive opensource CAM products, and its the main reason I continue to use Fusion 360 instead of OpenSCAD or SVG for my designs.

<comment><USER18> > I haven't seen any competitive opensource CAM products...

Solvespace is open source and claims to export tool paths as gcode with cutter radius compensation, though I have not used this feature. I found cutter radius and export 2D section but it's not cooperating right now!

[http://solvespace.com/index.pl](http://solvespace.com/index.pl)

<comment><USER17> > preparing CAM data — export 2d vector art for a waterjet machine or laser > cutter; or generate STEP or STL, for import into third-party CAM software > for machining

Thats been my experience with all of the OSS CAM: g-code for 2.5D, or STL so that a 3rd Party can do the really heavy lifting.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've been looking for a home PCB machine and would appreciate any recommendations on what to look at or what to avoid.

I've been told multiple times that it's easier to just have a service print your board which is probably true, but that would take a lot of fun out of the entire process for me.

<comment><USER19> I've been using a 3018 CNC with pretty good results. They're fairly inexpensive machines (about $300 I believe) and are decently accurate.

I still order boards from China, but for a quick breakout board it's incredibly handy!

I also decided to get a 5W laser which is also pretty fun to engrave with.

I'm planning on writing a series of blog posts about it if you're interested!

As a last note, if you like tinkering, these little machines are money and time sinks.. So far, I've added limit switches, a pi, more bits, 3D printed a tool holder etc etc

<comment><USER20> I'm definitely interested. I got into 3D printers and CNC machines at about the same time last year. I figured out the 3D printer right away and quickly went from printing out things on thingiverse to doing my own designs and outgrowing my printer and getting a fancier one.

While I've done about 250 print jobs in just under a year on my 3D printers after 8 months with the CNC I've cut two things. I got an entry level CNC (Millright M3) that runs the same GRBL on Arduino software stack and I've just been stumped after setting it up and cutting a couple rectangles out. The amount of time you have to put into setting up a CNC job is exponentially more and the amount of reference material out there is way less and way more specific to particular work flows / machines / pieces being cut.

<comment><USER21> There's a big difference between an additive process vs subtractive process. To me, additive is much easier as it starts at the bottom and build up. Nothing is ever in the way of the next step. Subtractive is much more difficult as you have to figure out how to get to places that needs tooling, how to hold the piece to do the work on it (especially as the piece changes shape in the process). Most projects I work on requires more work in setup than actual milling/cutting/etc. It's one of those things that most people just don't realize until they actually attempt it.

<comment><USER20> I've found the work holding on the CNC to be somewhat analogous to bed adhesion on the 3D printer. When milling you have to figure out how to hold this block down and printing you're using glue sticks and tape to try to get the first layer to stick. Both of these require the same trial and error shade tree mechanic skills that I enjoy developing.

My sticking point is more in the CAM side of things.

First I'll design something in Fusion 360. If I want to 3D print it the next steps are to export the stl (shape file) and open it in a slicer program. Then there are about ten parameters that may need some tweaking especially for a new printer and dozens more that you rarely change from the default before sending gcode to the printer. The slicer program can get you pretty close out of the box and the more I've done it the less time I spend slicing - my go-to settings print perfect 90% of the time. There are lots of resources (blog posts, youtube videos etc) explaining the different slicer settings and their effects on the print.

For CNC Milling after I've designed the part in F360 you switch over to CAM mode and it's like an entire different project that you have to design. With the slicer you say "lay it down on this side and print in PLA" the CNC CAM process makes 0 decisions for you. You can't just say "here's my stock, here's my end mill, put this side up and cut" and then tweak settings from there. Instead there are myriad permutations on feed rates, orders to cut things, multiple passes. Someone's feeds and speeds posted on the internet aren't going to work for your machine/material/design so there can't be something like a slicer program that can automatically route your CAM based on a few parameters and you can't reuse many settings between jobs.

I still like both printing and milling but milling is such a more difficult task with less mature software available (especially open source and hobby level software). That's why a fairly simple task warrants a pretty lengthy tutorial that's worthy of the HN front page.

<comment><USER22> I might be a dreadful old fogey, but I think that everyone should learn manual machining before getting into CAD/CAM. There's a level of mechanical sympathy that can only be learned by turning the handwheels and making chips. CAM is complex because machining is complex - removing the software from the equation makes it far easier to learn the fundamental principles, IMO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I owned a 3020 and own a Shapeoko 2. Unfortunately, I rarely use them. The biggest problem with CNC is that the overhead is so expensive. There's very little room for mistakes and material cost (stock and bits) can get very expensive. Holding a part can get tricky and the wrong feedrate can ruin your part. I end up using my 3D printers to do most of my parts nowadays. Though I do use my CNC for "food grade" stuff around the house.

<comment><USER24> > ...and material cost (stock and bits) can get very expensive.

I've been looking at CNC for a long time, and I've read that if you're starting from scratch, to allocate about the same amount that you spend on the mill itself to the consumables/logistical tail (end mills, cutting fluid, ancillary metalworking tools). Due to the steady degradation of quality design and manufacturing, and rapid support obsolescence, there is an endless supply of improvements I could make around the house if I had enough time and equipment.

It bothers me greatly to hear from appliance repair techs that I must throw out an entire major appliance instead of repairing just the pieces that broke [1], because the parts are either grossly expensive, or even simply not available. I'd love to own "versioned, open source" appliances, where open specifications let everyone repair only what breaks. And when something breaks, the community can figure out the root cause and redesign for greater robustness.

Like if a plastic part wears down causing a cam to miss a gear, then redesign to machine the cam out of high strength steel. Or if lots of people note a design oversight that makes a particular maintenance procedure a pain, a different access panel is designed and distributed for machining. Or if someone wants upgrade to a later version of an appliance, they swap out only the guts that change, and not the entire assembly, ideally sending the old guts in for recycling back into feedstock that others use for either manufacturing new or upgrading old units themselves. Or building in self- diagnosis over time, and auto-ordering new components for those that are detected wearing out.

The Increvable washing machine comes close [2] in the repairability area, but it isn't open source to the point where you can read off specs to create completely compatible machines, and the company can still go after you for copying their product.

[1] [https://circuitmaker.com/blog/about-open-source-washing- mach...](https://circuitmaker.com/blog/about-open-source-washing-machines)

<comment><USER25> Sometimes those plastic gears are serving a purpose though. They can protect much more expensive parts by failing first when an error occurs.

So the operators gripe about replacing a stupid plastic gear so they replace it with a metal one, then gripe when they have to replace the blown out gearbox.

<comment><USER24> Yep, thanks for pointing that out to the general audience, should definitely be noted. Some KitchenAid mixers have a plastic gear for exactly that purpose. On the other hand, on an outboard motor I use, the plastic gear that wears through for a tilt lock mechanism is attached to a ludicrously expensive metal assembly that has to be completely replaced.

I'm okay with the plastic gear designed as a sacrificial component. I don't like having to toss an entire assembly into the landfill, though. I'd like to be able to print/purchase just the sacrificial component and screw/glue it onto the existing still-working assembly. Event better, I'd like to send the broken sacrificial component back through to a process that breaks it back down into feedstock for recycled resins that go to manufacture products that can take slightly weaker plastic (each pass through recycling, plastic becomes slightly weaker, with virgin plastic starting at the strongest).

Ideally, I'd like to see aluminum parts that are designed to crumple under the specified sacrifice load like the equivalent plastic parts, and be able to just endlessly recycle the aluminum. But I've never seen such a design of a sacrificial gear/cam/bolt, so I don't know if that is simply an impossible mechanical engineering ask by a dumb layperson.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The Mostly Printed CNC is another great 3d printed CNC. [https://www.v1engineering.com/specifications/](https://www.v1engineering.com/specifications/) Almost done printing the parts for mine. Will run GRBL on it as well.

</comment><comment><USER27> I've been looking into building my own CNC. Sounds like there are some experienced CNC peoople here. Does anyone know why there are not more polar coordinate based CNC machines? I've been wondering what the pros and cons are.

<comment><USER28> Probably because the compliance changes. The farther you go from the origin, the easier it is to push the tool away from its intended cutting path.

A gantry-style machine, on the other hand, has the same rigidity anywhere in the X-Y plane. Rigidity is a bit less as Z changes (due to a longer moment arm), but it typically doesn't travel as far.</comment></comment>


India-US panel: Access to medicines may be under threat - <AUTHOR> http://www.deccanherald.com/content/450341/india-us-panel-access-medicines.html

<comment><USER2> 80% raw materials for medicines are imported from China [http://m.bbc.com/news/business-30330898](http://m.bbc.com/news/business-30330898)</comment>


Robot Programmed to Fall in Love with a Girl Goes too Far - <AUTHOR> http://the-technology-zone.blogspot.com/2013/06/robot-programmed-to-fall-in-love-with.html

<comment><USER2> fake: [http://gizmodo.com/5164841/robot-programmed-to-love-traps- wo...](http://gizmodo.com/5164841/robot-programmed-to-love-traps-woman-in-lab- hugs-her-repeatedly)

</comment><comment><USER3> this is quite amazing and scary at the same time...</comment>


Riemann Zeta function visualizations with Python - <AUTHOR> http://blog.christianperone.com/2010/02/riemann-zeta-function-visualizations-with-python/ <comment><USER2> This is the most intuitive visualization of the Riemann Zeta function I've come across: [https://youtu.be/sD0NjbwqlYw](https://youtu.be/sD0NjbwqlYw).

<comment><USER3> Wow, thanks for sharing that. Very well done!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've always wondered what a Riemann Zeta plot would like where you plot two planes and draw the mappings as lines/vectors between them.

i.e., a 3d plot, one plane above the other, the bottom one x,i and the top one f(x,i) and a line from each x,i originating from one plane ending at the plane above.

You'd have to skip some values and have some amount of transparency ... but I think it might be interesting to see how the values map from one domain into the other.

Does something like this already exist?

<comment><USER5> Good question. I wrote some Javascript to plot complex functions as 2-d vector fields, which is not really what you're asking for, but helped my intuition about simpler functions. I haven't tried it on zeta.

You can plot magnitude and phase as a colored surface, as you probably know.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Last week I found out that the Basel problem was actually the inspiration for the Riemann Zeta function: [http://www.fermatslibrary.com/s/a-proof-that- euler-missed#em...](http://www.fermatslibrary.com/s/a-proof-that-euler- missed#email-newsletter)

</comment><comment><USER7> Definitely created with Matplotlib. Interesting graphs!

</comment><comment><USER8> >first paragraph

What is this, an equation for ants?</comment>


Multiple protocols on a single port in CockroachDB - <AUTHOR> https://www.cockroachlabs.com/blog/a-tale-of-two-ports/ <comment><USER2> Not to be dismissive of the work you're done, but... Why?</comment>


Conversions in Javascript - <AUTHOR> http://thetascript.com/conversions-in-javascript/

<comment><USER2> This article has a few problems.

* "All of the above does the same job...". Not true at all; the four examples do three very different things. Try them with a more interesting string argument, say '012.78':

      parseInt('012.78')  // 10 (number interpreted as octal integer)
      Number('012.78')    // 12.78
      +'012.78'           // 12.78
      ~~(1*'012.78')      // 12

* "...and n1==n2==n3==n4" Using == instead of === here makes the statement meaningless. After all, this is also true:

      '12' == 12

* The "wicked" method, ~~( 1 * '12' ), smacks of cargo cult programming. No mention of the fact that it uses two operators instead of one? Why not test the two separately:

      1*'012.78'  // 12.78
      ~~'012.78'  // 12

Complaints aside, the results for the "wicked" method certainly are interesting. Why is it (along with the two variations above) so extremely fast in Firefox?

Here's an updated jsperf with those additional test cases:

<http://jsperf.com/parsenumber/5>

<comment> some-1 The reason why the wicked is so fast in Firefox is because of the literal string and the optimizations done by the compiler.

Try this (creates a function and then show the source):

      Function('return ~~(1 * "12");').toString();

And you get this result:

      "function anonymous() { return 12; }"

Notice that the expression has been converted to 12 in the function, so each call to it will just return 12 instead of converting it. That's why it is so much faster. The same is true for "<<", ">>" and "1 * '12'"

I created another test where it actually do the conversion, by assigning the string to a variable and use that in each test. There parseInt is faster in Firefox, Opera, Chrome and Safari. Surprisingly it is the slowest in IE, where +str is the fastest.

You can find it here: <http://jsperf.com/parse-number-from-string>

Also notice:

* All the logical operators (~, <<, >>, |) operates internally on a 32 bit signed integer, while parseInt, Number and + operates on a 64 bit signed float. Try to convert 2147483648 or 2333444555 for a little surprise.

* At the other jsperf someone added "0+'12'". That returns a string, not a number.

<comment><USER2> Ah, thank you very much. This is one of those things that is so obvious in hindsight: don't run performance tests using constant values, or the compiler may optimize the code away!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> One might prefer to supply the radix when using parseInt(), too. Lest one encounters strings that convert into octal numbers.

parseInt('09') !== parseInt('9')

</comment><comment><USER4> Except for n2 and n3, all of these have different semantics.

Performance doesn't help if your code is wrong.

</comment><comment><USER5> Firefox results are amazing, "wicked" is over 20x faster then any other method ...

</comment><comment><USER6> Why people are so keen on micro-optimizing their code? The bottleneck lies on DOM, not on your conversions.

<comment><USER7> I guess that depends on what you are doing.

If you have a 10k csv file and want to make a graph using javascript, I believe it could come handy.</comment></comment>


I crossed the Alps on a space hopper - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/14/i-crossed-alps-on-a-space-hopper-experience <comment><USER2> >Most people en route dismissed me as an English eccentric

that'll happen when you cross the alps on a space hopper, dressed in a tweed suit and pith helmet at the height of summer.

<comment><USER3> The only word of concern is _dismissed_. He is of course an english eccentric, but he shouldn't be dismissed for it.

<comment><USER4> The whole sentence was:

> Most people en route dismissed me as an English eccentric, > although many > were politely intrigued. On one occasion, a > local man offered me a huge > meal and homemade wine.

In this context I really don't think the word dismissed should be of concern. Seems like many people treated him fine despite bouncing on a space hopper...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> The clause, "so on I bounced" sounds wonderfully meaningful somehow.

</comment><comment><USER6> [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kKeh7OYBh90](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kKeh7OYBh90)

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm so confused. Is he not treating his leukemia? The entire article acts like this is a non-factor, which seems unlikely unless he's simply decided a year to live or whatever is enough for him.

<comment><USER8> It doesn't seem relevant to the subject of the article, and it's private, so I don't see why it should be detailed...

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I live in Steven's home town of Chichester and just realised from the article photo that he's the same chap that can often be seen riding around town on his trusty penny farthing in his tweed plus fours and pipe, doffing his cap and saying 'good day' to all that stop to watch. Fantastic to see how easily he mounts/dismounts the farthing!

</comment><comment><USER10> I hoped to see that the author dealt more directly with the address problem.

Is there no way to set up free post boxes with a fixed address for those that need them?

<comment><USER11> > I hoped to see that the author dealt more directly with the address problem.

It's a hard problem, in part because you really need the state to address many of the problems with assuming fixed address. Instead of recognising the reality that people were people whether they had fixed address or not, the UK parliament decided to simply ban vagrancy [0]. Aspects of the act are still in force today.

> Is there no way to set up free post boxes with a fixed address for those > that need them?

The currently governing party of the UK keeps parroting the line that "work is the best way out out of poverty" whilst passing laws and fostering policies that make that make life significantly harder for anybody homeless.

It's quite likely that the anti-"illegal"-immigration[1] "hostile environment" policy would view giving addresses to homeless people without proving their right to accommodation would result in the standard £10,000 fine per person the home office claims isn't here legally.

If an address was simply about receiving letters, then there is the Poste Restante service[2], which I only learnt of today. I suspect that few employers would accept that address and homeless people often don't have the proof of eligibility for work that they require.

What was once a universal healthcare system is actually no longer: In England, General Practitioners are required to write to patients and remove them from the register if they do not confirm receipt of the letter. This means being homeless without an address means emergency-only care, at least according to policy. [3]

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_Act_1824)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poste_restante#United_Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poste_restante#United_Kingdom)

[2] It actually affected a lot of people who were here legitimately. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal)

[3] There are actually out of hours services that will see you without a fixed address. There may also be some local clinics that reach out to homeless people, but this is not by any central policy and if certain newspapers covered this appalling abuse of hard-working taxpayer's money being potentially used for homeless illegal immigrants then it would be swiftly dealt with.

<comment><USER12> >What was once a universal healthcare system is actually no longer: In England, General Practitioners are required to write to patients and remove them from the register if they do not confirm receipt of the letter. This means being homeless without an address means emergency-only care, at least according to policy. [3]

I think you are misinformed

per [https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/doctors/Docum...](https://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/doctors/Documents/how- to-register-with-a-gp-homeless.pdf)

Message to the GP Practice

Thank you for helping to register this patient. We hope the patient was able to show you relevant documents. NHS Guidelines say 'If a patient cannot produce any supportive documentation but states that they reside within the practice boundary then practices should accept the registration'.

Please be aware that a homeless patient cannot be refused registration on the basis of where they reside because they are not in settled accommodation. For safety reasons they may need to change the places where they sleep rough on a daily basis. There is no regulatory requirement to prove identity, address, immigration status or an NHS number in order to register as a patient and no contractual requirement for GPs to request this.

Those who are homeless, vulnerably housed or 'of no fixed abode', asylum seekers, refugees and overseas visitors, whether lawfully in the UK or not, are eligible to register with a GP practice even if they have to pay for NHS services outside of the GP practice. The patient MUST be registered on application unless the practice has reasonable grounds to decline. GP practices have limited grounds on which they can turn down an application and these are;

if The commissioner has agreed that they can close their list to new patients.

The patient lives outside the practice boundary.

<comment><USER11> > I think you are misinformed

It appears, according to that leaflet, that I was, and that central policy is that people should be able to register without fixed address.

It does seem that at least one homelessness charity[0] has taken up a campaign around this, so it may well be an implementation detail within individual GP practices that leads to accounts such as:

> "Early in our frontline delivery, staff reported difficulties in supporting > people to register with a GP." [0]

[0] [https://www.homeless.org.uk/connect/features/2017/oct/06/hom...](https://www.homeless.org.uk/connect/features/2017/oct/06/homelessness- and-healthcare-right-to-register)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> TIL what a space hopper really is. Danger Mouse has a spaceship by that name, and I never got the joke, being American and all.

<comment><USER3> TIL americans forget toys they invented faster than danger mouse.

<comment><USER13> We never used the term "space hopper" for that sort of ball. That is a British coinage.

<comment><USER3> Odd. I am sure the one I had came direct from the USA and was called exactly that.

<comment><USER3> TIL. So "hoppity hop" it is. Oh, the innocent joys of the sixties and seventies. we got boffing sticks from the US and silly string. I think the boffing sticks lasted longest.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> [https://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/modern-day- pilg...](https://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/modern-day-pilgrim- steven-payne-48450/)

I found the pilgrimage alluded to in the article quite interesting. I hope this chap recovers.

</comment><comment><USER15> > I researched routes and found one that seemed feasible – 76 miles between > Bardonecchia in Italy and Grenoble in France.

Migrants from Africa use that route to die while trying to cross the border, while he hops through it wearing a pith helmet.

That's so British I just shat a colony and a crate of spices.

</comment><comment><USER16> > I'm trying to choose between cycling across the Channel and something > involving a penny farthing and a suit of armour.

I can't wait :)</comment>


What Might Be Speeding Up the Universe's Expansion? - <AUTHOR> https://www.quantamagazine.org/why-is-the-universe-expanding-so-fast-20200427/ <comment><USER2> To answer the question posed by the headline, and without having read the article or given any serious thought to doing so, I'm going to suggest social distancing, maybe? [Sorry, the isolation is getting to me.]

<comment><USER3> Surely the gravitational mass of all those virii in the intervening social space would exert a gravitational pull that would slow down the expansion?

[Yes yes I know that the virii are made from material in the organisms so overall the system's mass is conserved.]</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Where to spend company's education budget? - <AUTHOR> Our company offers few thousand dollars each year for employees to use it of loose it towards education. I have was thinking of using them for conference however They are no longer happening so bought few books. Still have some money left so looking for good suggestions. <comment><USER2> I'd spend some on screencasts, but then again I _would_ say that. Check out:

\- [https://laracasts.com](https://laracasts.com) (PHP, Vue, related topics)

\- [https://gorails.com](https://gorails.com) (Rails and other tech useful for Rails devs)

\- [https://vueschool.io](https://vueschool.io) (Vue, Nuxt, etc)

\- [https://fireship.io](https://fireship.io) (Angular and Firebase)

\- [https://alchemist.camp](https://alchemist.camp) (Elixir, Phoenix and complementary skills)

I'd also strongly recommend spending a good portion on books. No Starch, Pragmatic Bookshelf and Manning are all great publishers. Books are so cheap there's no reason not to buy a dozen or more a year and refer to them only as needed.

Manning regularly runs 50% off discounts and I've gotten at least 20 No Starch books in Humble Bundles for even less. Pragprog discounts are rarer, but they're still a great value.

For the cost of a single US conference, you could literally subscribe to every screencast site I listed above, buy 25 tech books and still come out ahead.

</comment><comment><USER3> Pluralsight is a good place to spend it - it's a little expensive but the courses are top notch and done by professionals, for professionals looking to cram.

Masterclass.com looks good too. Lots of non-code related things like writing and cooking by experts in their respective fields. Considering most of us don't know any professional actors or Michelin chefs, this is a fast way to pick up skills into the top 20% as cheaply as possible.

Plenty of books out there, but this is not the thread to list them.

Would it cover fitness? A personal trainer or dietician will take you further than most advice from friends and the internet.

<comment><USER4> Just an aside on Masterclass.com. You may want to manage your expectations a little before clicking buy.

I purchased 3 Masterclass (before they went recurring). The production quality is insane, but the content is closer to infotainment than education. I have no problem with infotainment and found the Chris Voss negotiation series helpful.

The James Patterson course is interesting (if you're a fan), but I didn't find it helpful at all for my writing.

<comment><USER3> I haven't tried it myself and the teasers looked nice, but thanks for the review.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Buy expensive textbooks with good resale value and then resell them to transfer that educational budget to your personal bank account.

<comment><USER6> This is unethical.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Is there relevant hardware you could purchase? Maybe an expert in your field will take money so you can pick his/her brain for a few hours?

<comment><AUTHOR> No hardware unfortunately, separate budget for that

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Question: Are you a manager spending your department's education budget or are you the victim it's being spent on?

</comment><comment><USER9> Licensing, certifications, and tests.</comment>


How to win an elevator pitch contest - <AUTHOR> http://brianbreslin.com/how-to-win-an-elevator-pitch-contest/

<comment><USER2> Nice article. By the way, Brian, who did your illustration?</comment>


Ask HN: Learning other (non-programming) languages? - <AUTHOR> We've all talked about ways to learn programming languages... But how about foreign languages? Has anyone had luck with software programs or CDs of any kind? <comment><USER4> Find some music you like that has contemporary lyrics in that language, and listen to it a lot.

"Tune your ears".

In addition to working to pick up the semantics of the lyrics, different languages emphasize different frequency ranges and sounds. You do need to literally "tune" your hearing to better perceive these.

Music you like turns this from a chore to a pleasure. Also, with music, video, books, etc., you start to pick up some of the culture, which helps you to become more "native" in your approach. There's also a lot of "slang" and contemporary word usage and dialog that will not make it into a text book.

</comment><comment><USER5> It seems like moving to a country where the language is spoken isn't an option for you. Here is how I advanced my Hebrew before moving to Israel. My prior knowledge was that I was able to read and write, but didn't really understand much except for mom, dad, table, chair. \- Pimsleur audio course - <USER2> driving I would listen to these mp3s. About 12 hours worth of participatory conversations. I think this should be required. \- online live tutoring - <USER3> got a discount for this online tutoring service, about $15 per hour I paid to have a teacher give me a private lesson with a digital whiteboard plus camera. Great for learning basic concepts, grammar, and also conversational. \- textbooks made for learning - first complete a book that is made for English speakers. Then get a book that is made for children or for people learning the language with no other language support. Like an ESL book with only English inside. \- make some friends that speak the language. This is ultimately the most important step. Nothing you learn in books or mp3s will stick unless you practice with real human beings.

Good luck!

</comment><comment> T-R I'd definitely go for the classroom. Unless you're living in the country, it can be pretty hard to maintain the discipline to cram vocabulary at a reasonable pace without anyone checking on you. Also, at some point you'll at least need someone to practice with, ask questions, and check your grammar.

If you're looking for tips - when I was taking multiple languages at once (Japanese, Chinese, and Korean), between classes I listened to music from the language of the class I was about to go to, to get my mind switched into that mode. I'm also under the impression that the music helped with my pronunciation a lot (but not with listening comprehension as much as I'd've expected).

</comment><comment><USER6> I have been looking to learn spanish. My personal preference is to take a classroom course so you will have real people to interact with and remember the vocabulary. And then you can follow up that with online material.

During my search, I also found 1\. iTune podcasts (Coffetime Spanish) and many more 2\. My local library has a tie-up with MangoLanguages 3\. Verbling ( a new site backed by YC)

Rosetta stone is always there, but is something I would consider once I have take a classroom course first.

</comment><comment><USER7> Michel Thomas has worked for me - French, Italian and Spanish...It is all audio-learning though - no written per se. I've gotten surprisingly good results - at least enough to hold my own in simple conversations from the CDs (they are about 8 hours each for a basic course).

</comment><comment><USER8> The more you study the better you get so try <http://alljapaneseallthetime.com>

There's some great posts about methods and motivation on that from someone who learnt Japanese in about 18 months.

</comment><comment><USER9> I was able to augment Pimsleur's Japanese tapes with some reading to crack the old Level 4 of Japanese Language Proficiency Test. It was a very good starting point. Worked well for me I would say.

</comment><comment><USER10> Classroom courses!

If not, then properly structured distance education courses are amazing.

Structure I like: Weekly assignments based on book Assignments are both audio and written Exam based on comprehension

</comment><comment><USER11> 99% of all that is crap. Period. Persistence + dedication + passion and you can learn any language for free to a functionally fluent level in less than 2 years doing 3-4 hours a day.

No different than hacking effort-wise.

The catch is that some amount of rote learning is a must. Immersion, real life practice etc is all cool, but it's just not the most efficient way. The never dying argument that children learn languages fast because of total immersion is some kind of a joke. They don't learn fast, it takes them a lot of time. The only thing they pick up fast is the accent and what I would call language intuition. But building up huge vocabulary takes them a lot of time.

So you if you want to be on the fast track you have to combine rote learning and immersion. Rote learning for cramming in TONS of vocabulary, you can do 50-100 a day with flashcards. Immersion for getting the feel.

If you're smart enough you can pretty much skip speaking practice, I know, very controversial. But if you feel like you can, then yes you can. I strongly believe it can even make things worse for some people. Because they develop bad habits too early. And I'm talking real life practice here. DO talk to yourself in that given language. Think in it. Even speak it aloud to yourself. But don't find language partners for speaking.

If you really feel like you want to do the language exchange thing then you can do it very early on, say the first month of learning. And only do text based. It's a good introduction to very basic written language. It quickly gets too easy, so you need to be aware when it stops being a learning tool and starts being 100% fun. If you can, just stay away.

Rote learning will be the hard work part of the equation, so I say try to do as much rote stuff done as you can and when you feel you're burning out just switch to stuff that's more in the immersion department. Then go back and repeat. With that method extra time that you put in actually increases the rate at which you learn exponentially. If you do 1 hour a day I'd bet that even in 6 years you'll have a long way to go. Do 6 a day and you can get fluent with an accent that is close to native accent in a year. Of course mileage varies.

Classes are totally not an option. They are full of COMPLETE slackers, language learners really do not have a good reputation, especially at an early stage (who does?).

1 on 1 tutoring is good, but don't let the tutor set the pace. The tutor is not for you to practice speaking/listening with. Of course you'll do that with him, because ideally you'll be only speaking in the target language. But his main role is to prepare your daily fix of material to cram and give you an answer when you need it. (less frequently makes little sense, bi daily at most).

I often find that it takes TONS of time to actually come up with what I'm going to cram in. Especially once you go deeper. So you can outsource that to the tutor. And do communicate that you want to go FAST (if you do :-)).

Ok. I guess it's enough, I just love learning languages. Most people think my approach is crazy, but well it works for me and I'm sure it worked in past for many many others.

If anybody wants some more crazy tips from me just post here or my email is in the profile.

<comment><USER12> By "feel" do you also mean grammar? Because I do believe that immersion is necessary for an intuitive understanding of the structure of a language. Rote grammar will get y9ou so far, but it's a different beast.

I agree that vocabulary is a more mechanical memorization task. Knowledge of linguistic antecedents (eg. Latin for the Romance family) greatly helps this along.

<comment><USER13> For immersion, the best is go and live in a country that speak the language you wish to learn. Et si est le pays d'origine mieux. Muchos paises adoptaron los modismos a tal punto de "crear" un nuevo idioma.</comment></comment></comment>


Scaling GitHub's Employees - <AUTHOR> http://zachholman.com/posts/scaling-github-employees/

<comment><USER3> _People work on what they want to work on. Product development is driven by whoever wants to drive product._

That is the surest way to reduce your startup's odds of survival. In this case, it would become a prototypical case study in survivor bias.

GitHub is lucky that they are building a product that is tailored for developers. It makes their survival rate doing this slightly higher because the developers are (only vaguely) similar to their customers. The further these two points are from each other, the worse this advice becomes.

A startup _needs_ somebody who understands how to drive products into markets. Whether this is the CEO or a product manager hired off the street doesn't matter, but they need somebody doing it who has the real authority to turn those learnings into a product fit for a market.

FWIW, I've lived the flip side of this coin: building a tool for developers driven by what we thought would be cool to build instead of having a product guy hitting the street to understand the real customer. After burning through more than $20M, the lights got turned off.

<comment><USER4> I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "only vaguely." The fact that passionate developers are building developer tools has a lot to do with why we've been successful.

Chris, the CEO, has spoken at length about this topic. He and I built another site prior to GitHub where there was very little correlation between our interests and the product we were building. Not surprisingly, our hearts weren't in it and we threw in the towel.

All of this said, just because you're working on something you're passionate about doesn't immediately mean you're bound for success; it just helps tremendously.

<comment><USER3> I say only vaguely because what you want to use may or may not have _any_ correlation with what people want to _buy_ , and it is extremely risky to assume that correlation exists.

 _just because you're working on something you're passionate about doesn't immediately mean you're bound for success; it just helps tremendously._

It helps immensely (in fact, if you don't have that, you are doing it wrong, IMO :), as long as you don't let your passion get in the way of figuring out what your _customer_ wants.

Like I said, dev tools are a special breed that have more wiggle room for this, but as my experience shows, it is not immune from failure (in fact, developers are notoriously cheap because there are so many good, free dev tools out there, but I bet developers aren't your primary customer, but rather their managers).

My response can be summed up in one sentence: with all startup advice, beware survivor bias!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Don't get me wrong, I love GitHub and I love the processes they are using - <USER2> wish we did more of it at my current employer. But all of this back-patting feels a bit premature. They've really only scaled a single order of magnitude. Growing from 4 developers to 40 developers is excellent, but hardly "scaling" at all. Would the same flow work at Amazon, Netflix, or Apple?

<comment><USER6> I'd argue that how you go from 4 to 40 developers is much more important than how you go from 100 to 200 developers. What's more, I find this area fascinating to discuss since many users in our Hacker News community tends to be in the 1-10 developer area. How you can grow past that initial team is really important.

I do actually mention at the end of the post that this likely doesn't scale up to hundreds and employees. But we'll see how it does work over time. So far so good. :)

<comment><USER7> > I do actually mention at the end of the post that this likely doesn't scale > up to hundreds and employees. But we'll see how it does work over time. So > far so good. :)

Well from what I know Valve operates on pretty much the same principles (employee-driven, very flat hierarchy, high inter-team mobility and teams as interest groups more than boxes to put people in), so if you can keep the culture in and manage to only hire good cultural fits it scales _at least_ to 260 (approximative valve headcount when Portal 2 was released)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've never heard of Graphite. Is this it? <http://graphite.wikidot.com/start>

If so, can anyone care to explain how it would be used to "graph application exceptions" as per this post? thanks!

<comment><USER9> Sure [1]

[1] - [http://codeascraft.etsy.com/2011/02/15/measure-anything- meas...](http://codeascraft.etsy.com/2011/02/15/measure-anything-measure- everything/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> these series of posts about how they do stuff is great, i love it.

however, dreaming up the end result is a lot easier than figuring out what seeds to plant when you are a team of 1 or 2. after reading these i'm always left with the question "great, but what should i be doing _now_ to be able to have this kind of process later?"

maybe the answer is in the article: figure out your core values and start applying them at whatever scale you are at. alas, that's not a list of actionable items.

<comment><USER11> Guz! I worked on HN Office Hours with you! How are you doing?

I think the actionable takeaway here is eliminating all friction that prevents an individual pushing the product forward. For GH, this meant automating everything possible, and providing accessible visibility into their data. How Hubot contributes to speeding up the onboarding of new engineers is worth thinking about too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> _some days our CEO ships more code than the rest of us do_

Now that is impressive for a 40-people startup.

<comment><USER13> They picked the right userbase. They don't have to put on suits and suck up to random douchebags with a lot of money. They just need to convince other programmers like them to shell out $7 a month. (Although I'm sure they make some money on FI, too :)

That leaves plenty of time for programming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The more they explain, the more Github's organisation sounds like valve: very flat hierarchy, loose interest-based teams and ease of moving between them, etc...

</comment><comment><USER14> If only they could scale their sales department. We've received no response for 2 weeks using 3 different methods of contacting them.

<comment><USER6> Doesn't look like anything's two weeks behind on our end; might've gotten lost in the mix. I assume you already did this, but can you shoot us an email at email@example.com (or firstname.lastname@example.com for FI sales) and we'll make sure to get on it. You can cc firstname.lastname@example.com too, just in case, and I'll keep tabs on it personally.

<comment><USER15> I haven't had to contact sales, but I can vouch for your responsiveness at email@example.com

I've emailed you guys a few times and received 1 hour turnaround with complete resolution, day or night.

Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Saying that automation "reduces institutional knowledge" seems a bit misleading in that the knowledge is still kept by the institution but is somewhat inaccessible because the information is held by only a few employees. Perhaps saying that automation "records institutional knowledge" would be more accurate.

</comment><comment><USER17> I'd be much more impressed if they don't "scale" their employees at all. Github can not possibly _need_ 40 employees at this point. Nothing ensures eventual mediocrity like hiring masses of people.

<comment><USER18> GitHub actually has a lot of systems with a lot of features, and a lot of competition. Not everyone uses all of their major systems other than repos (teams, issues, wikis, sites, GitHub:FI) but many do. If GitHub only worked on their core product, many valuable customers would leave for competitors.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> What's the designer culture at github? Do you make them use git?

<comment><USER20> "make them use git" - given that the entire business is built around git, I should hope so. Git isn't the most user-friendly VCS, but why shouldn't a competent designer be able to pick it up? I've even got our designer working with branches.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I love the way you're running github.. deep appreciate. Please keep posting as it grows, so we can learn. Many thanks.

</comment><comment> brown9-2 God I wish my team had a Hubot.

<comment><USER15> I coded up a HipChat bot in < 100 lines of CoffeeScript. It leverages the existing module system to make plugin writing hilariously easy:

      if msg[0] == '!'
        [cmd, args...] = msg.slice(1).split(' ')
        require("commands/#{cmd}").exec(chat, args)

Just add a coffee file to the commands directory and export an `exec` function which callc `chat.reply` -- couldn't be easier!

<comment> brown9-2 Hmm, would you have any pointers on where to start with CoffeeScript to do something like this?

<comment><USER15> <https://gist.github.com/940969>

<comment> brown9-2 Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> These sorts of posts make me want to work at GitHub, which might very well be the objective. Taking a shot at a position there might even be worth learning Rails. (I have a primarily Python oriented background.)

Are there any other companies that have a culture/process like this?

<comment><USER22> I would say Tripadvisor. Check the culture paragraph here [http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/6/27/tripadvisor- archit...](http://highscalability.com/blog/2011/6/27/tripadvisor- architecture-40m-visitors-200m-dynamic-page-view.html)</comment></comment>


Linux Kernel adopts code of conduct - <AUTHOR> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=8a104f8b5867c682d994ffa7a74093c54469c11f <comment><USER2> This CoC seems reasonable, but the creator of it has some pretty dangerous views:

[https://postmeritocracy.org](https://postmeritocracy.org)

</comment><comment><USER3> If Linus can become polite, I am sure desktop linux can also happen one day.

</comment><comment><USER4> This is definitely an improvement over the "code of conflict".</comment>


Ask HN: Protecting database information? - <AUTHOR> Hi,
What's the best way to protect information in a database? The information should be readable from a web application but assuming the database gets hacked, the information should be safe.
An idea I had was to cipher information before inserting into the database but I guess all an attacker needs is the key in order to unlock it.
I'm not great with security so I'm hoping you folks on HN would have some ideas. <comment><USER2> Disclaimer: I am far from a security expert.

If your website is used by authenticated users i.e. requiring username password to login, then you could use their password to encrypt relevant data and decrypt it in runtime when the user logs in. However make sure you destroy the password and decrypted information from memory after user logs out or after a certain timeout, whichever is earlier.

Since now you are not storing keys on your server, attacker wont be able to decrypt sensitive information even if he gains administrative access to your server. Each user will be holding key in form of his password. The attacker will have to get password of each user.

Use https so that the attacker wont be able to sniff out password of the user.

Downside: 1\. Forgot password functionality will be hard to implement 2\. If users try to login to your application after attacker gains access to it, attacker will come to know of the password and use it to decrypt information pertaining to that user. 3\. Even you won't be able to see the information since you won't have the decryption key.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. That's a very interesting idea - I like it since users can't access each others' information.

Now I'll just have to think about handling the "Forgot Password" functionality. I'm not sure for #3 if I do need to see the information although I worry that my users would be using it for nefarious purposes.

<comment><USER2> There is a way to get around #3 although inefficient. Everytime information is posted by your users you can create 2 copies of encrypted information. One with users password for them to view. The other would be using your key, but you cant simply use password for encrypting your copy, that would be insecure since you need to store your password on server. Instead you can use asymmetric encryption such that you can use your public key to encrypt the information. Then you can use your private key to login to you website and view all information.

<comment><AUTHOR> Basically my database will always be 2X?

Curious but given that WhatApp recently encrypts messaging end-to-end, does this mean that even they can't view the information? Does this mean WhatsApp would have no way of detecting if it's application is being used for organizing illegal activity?

<comment><USER2> OR you could encrypt user password with your public key. Then when you login, you can decrypt user password with your private key. Then go on decrypting user information with that password. This way you won't have to make copy of information posted by users and still will be able to view it with admin login.

<comment><USER3> Doesn't that mean anyone who captures the "admin" private key has full access to the database?

<comment><USER2> Yes, but since the key resides with admin and not on server, I am assuming the private key will be stored securely.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I think it was on here that someone recommended this -

[http://www.wayner.org/node/46](http://www.wayner.org/node/46)

> Translucent databases provide better, deeper protection by scrambling the > data with encryption algorithms. The solutions use the minimal amount of > encryption to ensure that the database is still functional. In the best > applications, the personal and sensitive information is protected but the > database still delivers the information.

(Disclaimer: I haven't read it yet)</comment>


I spent two weeks delivering for Uber Eats and made $4.40 per hour - <AUTHOR> http://www.breakit.se/artikel/7599/i-spent-two-weeks-delivering-for-uber-eats-and-made-4-4-per-hour <comment><USER3> "Gig/Contract economy" is the analogue of outsourcing, except for the cheap workers being drawn from local population. Its a logical consequence from corporations wanting to reduce wages and legal trickery to avoid work liabilities and benefits for the workers. Its exploitative and ruthless example of what "capitalism" becomes when law doesn't hold the punch, companies just figured out the necessary mix of legal and tech means to avoid the system being labeled as "work" and pay fair wages/expenses per worker. Expect this type of "work" to increase and subsume new sectors of economy as they figure out how to transform them into uber model.

<comment><USER4> What's it called when the gigsters have to front their own capital to get the gigs? Pay to play?

I get why an electrician has their own tools. Why does an Uber driver need their own car?

<comment><USER5> >What's it called when the gigsters have to front their own capital to get the gigs? Pay to play?

Normal freelancing/independent contracting. And yes, there's a dispute about whether the classification is legal, my point is just that there it's not something Uber invented (edit: or any of the other on-demand startups).

<comment><USER3> No. Its like being paid per each function of code developed. There is a segmentation of work into deliverable units(rides, deliveries). If programmers were replaced by gig economy, it would look like freelancers getting paid pennies for creating tiny pieces of code(with large competition between them for speed and performance): e.g. a gig where you write function X of project Y, which is then graded for performance and compliance and paid 60 cents, with a twist:you are only paid if your function is the best one among all submitted. With gamification and ratings, the competition become very fierce and people get near zero income, making the job unsustainable except for those living in third-world countries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> As a comparison, $17.40 is what a rural carrier starts with the us postal service. [1]

After a strike in the '70s postal workers could bargain. This has led to stable, unglorified, mid pay jobs. The bargaining was and is key.

Now, if you sign up as a City carrier you can (with luck) become "regular" in 90 days. You will get 23 paid days off, eligible for federal pool health insurance (quite good 2m pool) where you pay 25% premium, never work Sundays, guaranteed 40 hours work a week, no email, stress, home by 5pm.

[1] [https://wp1-ext.usps.gov/sap/bc/webdynpro/sap/hrrcf_a_unreg_...](https://wp1-ext.usps.gov/sap/bc/webdynpro/sap/hrrcf_a_unreg_job_search#)

Choose state and "delivery"

<comment><USER7> I was looking at the job board here in Canada and saw a rural postal delivery job. It said it paid $15,000 but $7,500 of that was for vehicle expenses. You need your own vehicle with a plug able to plug in the post office light for the roof.

I can't see how this would appeal to anyone or how it is even legal. If you worked an eight hour day that's only $3.60 per hour.

<comment><USER6> Rural in usa does not necessarily mean "rural" all rural routes i know use postal trucks. They dont have any businessess and share an office with business routes

<comment><USER8> A lot of RFD and there rural delivery is done by local folks with a magnetic sticker on the side of the car that says postal service. In my experience it's all mothers with no other job who can pick up some extra cash while the kids are at school.

Which doesn't contradict your statement that "all rural routes i know use postal trucks", just says that conditions are different in different areas.

FWIW , where my vacation house is, the postman also delivers Amazon packages and wears no uniform while at home in Palo Alto the postman, Fedex etc all have uniforms.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I rode for UberEats for two weeks and made roughly £22 an hour.

To be fair, this was when they were just coming into London and offering crazy bonuses to steal market share from Deliveroo, but still, this isn't controversial - if someone pays you bad wages, don't work for them...

<comment><USER10> That's some solid advice, but for some people, that's simply not an option.

If you can't find work elsewhere, you'd rather work for pennies than for nothing.

<comment><USER11> So its better that Uber didn't offer this job at all?

<comment><USER12> It would be better if they offered the job with reasonable wages and conditions. If consumers are not willing to pay enough for Uber to be able to offer this, they have a poor business model or are in the wrong market.

You could say the same about any regulation, if you cannot manufacture something at a reasonable price without polluting more than allowed, you need to change your prices or adjust your business model.

<comment><USER13> > you need to change your prices or adjust your business model.

so its better for a job to not exist rather than exist without reasonable wage?

<comment><USER12> The alternative is for Uber to invest in increased productivity, just like other industries. Making each worked hour give more return. They could supply better bikes, as another poster suggested less downtime for drivers, better algorithms to cut the length of the routes, higher fees for customers... I'm sure there are clever people that can figure it out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Several things the article does not mention:

\- Some workers are pressured to rent a scooter or an e-bike. Having bike carriers is cool, but they prefer faster and long ranges. They rent from companies that have a deal with the parent company. This makes it even more difficult to earn a profit.

\- On some countries, you must register as self-employed or freelance. Taxes and you also pay for social security.

\- This highlights something interesting. These companies have a pool of riders at zero risk

\- The part about few orders really depends on the city and the part of the day you work. Busiest hours can give you a solid 7 - 10 deliveries on a 3 hour period.

</comment><comment><USER15> I don't understand what is wrong with Uber Eats charging whatever price they want to charge. If $4.4 is too low just don't work for them. There are probably people for which this is a good price. If not, it's Uber Eats problem, not yours.

<comment><USER16> It's not black and white. What looks to you like the free choice of people choosing to work for $4.4 may look to others like a forced situation. What I think you're missing is that your assumption that everyone can freely choose and has alternatives is clearly mistaken.

<comment><USER17> > may look to others like a forced situation. What I think you're missing is > that your assumption that everyone can freely choose and has alternatives is > clearly mistaken.

Could you please elaborate? I don't exactly follow. Nobody is forcing them to work for Uber. If what you mean is they have bills to pay, etc, it's not like Uber can just magically decide to pay $9/hr, they will likely need to cut most of the jobs at that point anyway.

<comment><USER18> Simplistically: people can either work or not work. Nearly everyone will chose "work" because it's nice to feel useful, even if that work doesn't pay a living wage.

If people are not earning a living wage, societies can either let them die in the street or subsidize them. Most societies will choose the later, because they're made of humans and not monsters.

That means that there really is a minimum wage, but it's paid in part or in full by the society. Companies that pay less than a living wage exploit the "humans don't like watching children starve to death" vulnerability and effectively steal from society. Additionally, paying a lower wage lets them offer a lower price to consumers which can drive out companies that were paying their customers an actual wage.

<comment><USER19> Whether or not the statement "nearly everyone will chose to "work" is true, the problem that must be solves is how to incentivize someone to do the work that no one wants to do.

It's entirely possible that providing a "living" wage to a food delivery person just isn't worth it for consumers so they would rather just go get it themselves.

The conundrum is creating a system where there enough incentive is created to do the work no one wants, but at the same time distribute resources so that everyone is provided some definition of "standard of living". This is difficult when the value of (most) human's work is ever decreasing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Time and time again, Uber has shown that undercutting their competitors in pricing is not done through smart technology or better business models, but by avoiding regulations and getting away with inhumane wages.

<comment><USER21> The alternative for many unskilled people would be to be unemployed and having even less income, would that be more or less inhumane?

<comment><USER22> This is essentially an argument against having a minimum wage in general (and more broadly, certain labor regulations). It's a complex issue that we could argue about for pages and pages of comments, but suffice to say the vast majority of the population in the US, let alone Sweden, disagree with you.

Which is that in some cases it _is_ better to have some unemployed people and some (ideally a lot more) people earning a good wage, versus both groups earning a crappy wage. Combined with a welfare system.

<comment><USER23> And most economists agree with the grandfather comment..

<comment><USER24> Not at all, no. Throughout the world, unemployment is correlated with the local minimum wage - as the minimum wage increases, unemployment decreases. Somalia (no minimum wage) has an unemployment rate of over 60%. Increasing the minimum wage in US states produces no negative employment effects.

There are, of course, paid professional conservative economists who will tell you whatever their bosses want them to in support of pro-billionaire economic policies.

<comment><USER21> > Increasing the minimum wage in US states produces no negative employment > effects.

Why not increase it to $500 an hour then? When you increase the price of cigarettes, people buy less cigarettes, when you increase the price of cars, people buy less of it. What do you think happens when you increase the price of labor and why do you think it has magic powers that makes it avoid these basic laws of economics?

What about people who prefer to work for Uber for $4 per hour rather than stay unemployed? Would you tell them "Sorry but this is inhumane, I can't let you do that to yourself and I'm ready to vote laws to forbid you to do as you please with your free time and send people like you to jail if they persist"? Do you know better than they do what's best for them and how they can use their own body? Doesn't that make you an authoritarian?

<comment><USER25> Whenever someone trots out the "basic laws of economics" it usually means they're trying really hard to ignore the complexities of reality and force the world to fit into a simplistic and wrong model in their head. Study after study supports his position while yours is purely ideological and not in alignment with the facts. Rather than even discuss the facts, you've flipped to accusing him of being an authoritarian, and you think you're being the rational one here... really?

Try and understand that not everyone thinks employment is the end goal, rather being able to live a decent life is and that requires a livable wage and most of the western world has decided it's better to have a decent safety net that defines that floor than to let people be forced by circumstances to work for less than a livable wage. Try and understand what the words "wage slavery" mean to those who find meaning in that term, regardless of how you feel about it.

All democracies are authoritarian in the sense that you use the word; the minority will always feel wronged in some way by the majority forcing them to do things they're ideologically against. Using the word in that way makes it meaningless and makes your argument look weak.

<comment><USER23> A minimum wage still sets the floor to zero. It just outlaws values between $0 and somelike like $8.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> _Many of them are immigrants and are looking for a better future. I meet very few who can speak Swedish._

Only a massive supply of labour via immigration makes it possible to pay people $4/hr and have any takers.

<comment><USER27> To be fair, any form of massive supply is sufficient. It need not be immigration.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I saw an obviously distressed/very low income guy sitting on the sidewalk in Manhattan last week with a sign that said he had worked for two weeks with uber eats but they didn't tell him they will only do direct deposit not a cheque and he needed help because he doesn't have a bank account.

<comment><USER29> If he has a driver license and a car - how come he can't open a bank account? Getting a driver license is much harder and requires more paperwork then opening a bank account I thought

<comment><USER30> I don't think you need an address to get a driver license. To open a bank account you need to verify your current address with something like a current bill or pay stub.

<comment><USER31> I don't know how it works where you live. I live in Florida. When Florida became compliant with the REAL ID Act, we had to start producing proof of residency when renewing our driver licenses or applying for them. This means showing things like utility bills. Owning real estate is not sufficient.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Uber's 10 000 SEK per month for working 50 hours is an awful exploitative salary in Sweden. Usually that's the kind of pay you get doing sweat shop jobs as an undocumented immigrant, not working for a legitimate business.

<comment><USER33> Have you read the article? There's no 10000 SEK per month, it's just an empty promise; noone gets paid the described amount because the number of deliveries simply isn't there. The best scenario mentioned was a guy who managed to get 6000 sek per month, and working much more than the 50 hours.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Here, in Montpellier, France there is a crazy competition between Foodora and Deliveroo, I don't know how healthy this is, they are just trying to kill each other so that the victor raises the prices, all that on the back of medicine students speeding with bikes while dodging trams and busses.

I have never tried those services since I live downtown and I don't really need home delivery.

</comment><comment><USER35> It would be good to consider the reasons why certain people still feel it is a good idea to work/drive for a company such as Uber.

Is it a lack of alternatives? A "better than nothing" situation? Does anyone have insights?

<comment><USER36> I drive for Uber on the side despite my real job paying 7x more per hour. It's mostly an excuse to get out of the house and drive my car with someone else paying for the gas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> "The middle man PaySalary, which formally recruits Uber Eats bike couriers, then deducts employer fees as well as an administrative fee of 3.3 percent.

A statuary holiday entitlement of 12 percent is added.

After this, a 30 percent tax is deducted.

To summarize: If I am guaranteed a payment of 300 SEK, that translates to an hourly pay after fees, but before taxes, of just over 150 SEK plus holiday entitlement. That's just short of 17 dollars an hour"

Why do Europeans brag about how great their governments are, then bitch about the mad taxes they have to pay for them?

<comment><USER38> To be fair, it's my impression (as a Brit) that Nordics rarely 'bitch about the mad taxes'. Such concerns are often doled out by those in countries who don't feel they get a good return on their investment — the Mediterranean countries and higher earners in the likes of France and the UK.

<comment><USER37> In this case the author was complaining about how low the aftertax earnings were, without realizing he was bitching about how high the taxes were.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I don't think I would use Uber Eats even if they were available in Oslo, but I already outright refuse to order through Foodora. They might pay better, but the number of times one of their cyclists has almost hit me or my dog has put me off ever using them. They should at the very least make those boxes have easily visible ID numbers so that you can call in complaints about them!

</comment><comment><USER40> I've seen noticed so many high voted anti-Uber stories across so many media channels recently - I can't help but suspect there is something more going on here

there are plenty of other companies pushing boundaries in other areas not getting near as much negative PR right now

I don't use Uber but I know many who consistently do without ever having a negative word to say about them

<comment><USER41> You might want to clarify what "use uber" means.

If you're just talking about customers who eventually benefit from people being paid low salaries, it's not really a good point of comparison.

<comment><USER40> it wasn't a specific comment about the article - but volume of Uber related articles currently in the media generally

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I don't understand the libertarian argument for allowing low wages. Let's say company X is paying low wages, which allows it to sell goods for cheap. If company Y tries to enter the market and pay higher wages, they won't get any market share, because their goods will be more expensive. So wages will stay low forever. Am I missing something?

<comment><USER43> If company Y is producing the same quality of goods as company X but trying to charge more money, they deserve to be out-competed by company X. Do you agree?

Equally, if employee Y is producing the same quality of work as employee X but trying to charge more money, does employee Y not deserve to be out-competed by employee X?

Employment is a two-sided market too.

Nobody would advocate for a minimum price for a packet of crisps just to save the poor crisp companies from earning too little per packet. It is obvious that if crisps were too expensive, people would stop buying them. The same applies for workers.

Minimum wage is just saying "if you can't produce at least $X of value per hour, you're not allowed to work at all". That's not fair.

<comment><USER44> Except that in one case you're talking about companies and in the other about people. I have no problems with companies dying, but I have moral reservations about people dying. The free market has no such qualms, it will happily set wages at a level where people can't survive.

<comment><USER23> A minimum wage forbids companies from hiring workers..

What you are arguing for is a welfare state.

As an example, modern Germany had a long tradition of welfare state combined with no minimum wage.

<comment><USER45> > As an example, modern Germany had a long tradition of welfare state combined > with no minimum wage

Welfare state as in? Having social benefits and minimum wage is not mutually exclusive.

Furthermore according to Wikipedia [1] the minimum wage in Germany is 8.84 EUR. You might say, "that's Wikipedia, that's no reliable source!" No sweat, go click the link first. For this specific information (minimum wage in Germany) they provide links to an English AND German source.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_count...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country)

<comment><USER23> Exactly. There are two independent choices.

Yes, Germany has a minimum wage now. It's fairly recent. Hence my careful wording that Germany "had" a tradition, not "has" a tradition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> In the absence of federal support programs, are people who would drive for Uber or any of these gig-type apps better or worse off with the opportunity to earn $4.40/hr?

If you raise that wage, most likely the business model ceases to be worthwhile for Uber, so the job goes away. I don't think that means it is replaced with something better.

</comment><comment><USER47> Used Wolt and Foodora (in Finland). The Wolt people usually use cars for delivery. Wonder how that factors in the profit calculations for the delivery person.

Anyhow, I'm really wondering how any one of these companies can survive when the VC subsidies run out. There have been other food delivery services here before them but the have been shut down for being too expensive. On the other hand they had actual employees and paid their taxes etc. Wonder how much tax avoidance is possible for foodora/wolt workers, or how much the corporations do "tax structuring" which seems to be all the rage nowadays for hipster startups.

<comment><USER48> > Anyhow, I'm really wondering how any one of these companies can survive when > the VC subsidies run out.

The one with the biggest amount of $$$ and the (relatively) lowest cash burn will prevail, and once the competition is shot, raise the prices by (ab)using the now dominant position.

This is then followed by either an IPO or acquisition.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> In food delivery service, natural monopoly/oligopoly might exist and companies could eliminate competitors which adhere to minimum wage or treat their workers better. The eventual result could be unfairly high profits for these companies, not due to a better system or innovation but from shady practices.

In general I believe well-implemented negative income taxes work better than minimum wages, but given the weakening power of less skilled labor and political situations that limit redistribution of wealth/income, minimum wages are justified in certain cases.

<comment><USER27> I've always liked the simplicity of a linear tax with a rather large tax credit and paying out rather than collecting when income after tax credit is negative.

I'm not sure if such a system can be made sufficiently progressive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> This is an interesting comparison between the two services in Sweden. I wonder how much variance we would see in the states with the "tipping culture". 4 deliveries per hour with an average tip of $2 is $8/hr by itself, exceeding the hourly "wage" paid by Uber Eats.

Sometimes I daydream about being a bike courier/messenger in a city like New York. I've even considered delivering sandwiches over the lunch hour in my current city, Denver. The author's descriptive of cycling in the rain tempered my dream a bit.

<comment><USER51> Physical labor is hard, and often results in shorter lifespans. I was once friends with a bike courier, both of us a similar age. I see him in the streets every few years. I just passed a few weeks ago and he looks old. At least a decade older then me (50). Barring an accident, I'll most likely outlive him by a decade, with a higher quality of life due to his accumulated aches and pains.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> No one owes you a "living wage". No one owes you a wage at all.

<comment><USER53> No one asks to be born into a society that doesn't allow someone to eschew its rules as they wish. There is literally no way to consent to being born. It is not a choice someone makes.

People are being born into a society they can not afford to live in, and have no options to leave it. I personally find that disgusting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> While not 100% analaogous, there was a fantastic EconTalk episode recently that touched on sweat shops and human behavior. I'm not attempting to say that UberEATS is an "American" sweatshop, but the relative wage in our market might result in similar behaviors.

[http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/12/chris_blattman_1.ht...](http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2016/12/chris_blattman_1.html)

</comment><comment><USER55> That's about exactly what happened with Mr. Klumpp's CrunchButton - <USER2> learned very quickly that $6 per delivery kills your wages when college students don't usually tip and you can make only a delivery roughly every hour unless you get lucky with multiple orders coming in for the same food place. Most Crunchbutton drivers were actually losing money once they figured in gas expenses (which of course Crunchbutton did not pay.)

</comment><comment><USER56> I wonder if the results would have been different in North America where the delivery people would make tips on top of their delivery fares.

</comment><comment><USER57> So Uber Eats won't send you jobs to prevent you earn the bonus? Or was it just you waiting at a 'wrong' location?

</comment><comment><USER58> What about tipping in Sweden? Do you tip the couriers that deliver food to your home (and what would be an average tip)?

<comment><USER45> Wikipedia has good information about tipping customs and laws in countries throughout the world. Here's the Swedish entry [1].

As a rule of thumb: apart from the English-speaking countries in EU, tipping is not mandatory.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#Sweden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratuity#Sweden)

<comment><USER59> It's not mandatory in the UK either. It's certainly pretty common in restaurants, as long as they don't already add a service charge, but it's unusual to tip in just about any other situation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I wonder Is there gonna be a response from Uber to that? I mean, except for prohibiting hiring journalists :) ?

<comment><USER61> They where going to look over the bonus system to make it easier to get the bonuses

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> How does this apply to London I wonder?

<comment><USER9> I don't know about now, but I cycled for UberEats when they first came to London last summer, and averaged £22 an hour due to the crazy incentives they were offering to steal marketshare from Deliveroo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> That's less than half a dollar per kilometre.

Damn.

</comment><comment><USER63> Sounds like a raw deal for a bicycle, but, how about on a scooter?

<comment><USER61> The main issue is that they don't have enough customers but they still pull out as many people as they can to work for almost free

<comment><USER63> I see your point. In Sweden, I see they don't have a minimum wage, and that they use collective bargaining to make agreements. Since Uber Eats is new, I imagine they haven't established a union yet.

I wonder how that will play out.

<comment><USER64> If you join a union you'll get kicked out is how that will work I imagine.

<comment><USER65> Firing someone for joining a union is against the law. In fact firing an employee after a grace period is difficult in Scandinavia unless they are clearly incompetent or criminal.

For that reason it might even be that Uber doesn't worry too much about high turnover because it means that most of their workers are sackable without having to give reasons or compensation.

<comment><USER45> They work around that by calling these employees 'freelancers'. Which is of course bullshit since there's a top-down relationship, but these employees don't have the means (resources/info/money) to combat this in a court of law.

The trick abused before was hiring people as interim, and then sacking them right before they had to be hired permanently by law. I know first hand even the government in The Netherlands did this in '00\. However this still means these people need to get minimum wage (actually, more, since the employment agency also demands a cut). As you can see, the freelance trick is more lucrative.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> How much is uber eats making per hour?

</comment><comment><USER67> TLDR Uber pays 4.4$ per hour, local competitor 17.9$

remind me again, why we need this shady company in Europe?

<comment><USER23> Who's forcing those people to work for uber, if those other companies are ostensibly paying better?

<comment><USER68> It sounds (from the article) that Uber is "flexible" about immigration rules.

<comment><USER23> Thanks for answering that!

So it looks like those higher paying jobs are not actually available for a large part of the Uber Eats workforce? How would those people benefit from being forbidden from working (= minimum wage)?

<comment><USER69> > How would those people benefit from being forbidden from working

You are asking the wrong question. The real question is how can swedes prevent yet another unskilled job from being utterly annihilated by globalization in action?

Before Uber and undocumented migrants arriving in droves, those lines of unskilled work had better condition, quality of life. With the unfair competition of illegally employed undocumented migrants working for peanuts, it's only a matter of time before all other delivery companies shut their doors and bail. Then we'll end up with yet another job lost at the globalist hands. How much can we continue losing to globalisation? Everything, until the entire Western world has become as poor as the third world, save for the low % of SV entrepreneurs and VC?

<comment><USER23> Why would the Swedes want to do that?

Productivity ultimately drives standards of living.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> That sounds great. Let's regulate it. I am from Venezuela and can tell you the wonders regulation has done for my country's economy.

<comment><USER71> I'm from Norway and the economy is quite regulated. We're still/therefore (take your pick) very successful [1].

Macro economy is complicated. It seems obvious to me the it's not as simple as "just let everyone run free". On the other hand regulation has it's disadvantages as well. Complicated.

[1] as in #3 in the world: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\)_per_capita)

<comment><USER72> Measuring "regulation" isn't straightforward, but based on the Heritage Foundation's criteria, Norway has a relatively light load. It's basically on par with the US.[1] Its a very free economy by international standards. Venezuela is near the bottom of the list, just above North Korea.

Economic regulation and the extent of the social safety net can be quite independent of each other.

[1] [http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking](http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> Push it a little bit harder and you are going to argue minimum wage is a stalinian horror.

<comment><USER21> Nice refutation. Also, are you aware that minimum wages laws were originally designed to prevent low skilled blacks from competing on price with whites, right? Even to this day, minimum wage keeps minorities out of jobs. But if it makes you feel better at night that at least no one is payed $4 an hour, even if that means staying at home with $0 an hour.

For those downvoting, this is a historical fact:

\- [https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on-t...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carriesheffield/2014/04/29/on- the-historically-racist-motivations-behind-minimum-wage/#6bae094c11bb)

\- [http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0405-leonard- mini...](http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0405-leonard-minimum- wage-20160405-story.html)

When you have no skills, you need to compete on price, that's just a fact of life. Preventing people from competing on price will keep them poor and unemployed. When this is done on purpose to racial minorities, it's called racism.

<comment><USER73> > When you have no skills, you need to compete on price [..]

Since you like funky logic and straw man arguments I'll just point out that even people or business with skills have to compete on price therefore the rest of your rambling is moot.

(And I have been living my whole life in Western continental Europe so I don't see what the US segregation has to do with me being a racist because I support minimal wage)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> Did anyone catch the part where the journalist got the co-founder of Foodora (also his Foodora-boss) to impersonate him as an Uber courier? He mentioned it like it was the most normal thing. I wonder if there's a deeper relationship at play here. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Uber is staying true to its "Do be evil" doctrine. But I wonder if there's a separate vested interest (e.g., support local businesses) operating behind the scenes.

<comment><USER75> "Breakit's co-founder" not "co-founder of Foodora".</comment></comment>


Ad tracking of kids using Childline. Facebook removed. YouTube not yet - <AUTHOR> https://markalanrichards.com/2019/03/17/ad-tracking-of-childline.html <comment><AUTHOR> When you explain how adtech tracking works, with examples to organisaions that have a moral and regulatory need to protect privacy, in some of the most sensitive situations, it is possible to get them to remove ad tech without too much effort.

This has been a mixed success as a privacy complaint and I hope the regulator (ICO) steps in to make sure similar organisations remove ad tracking where there are vulnerable users.

Childline was copied in many countries, you might want to check your national online service.</comment>