How I Lent My Camera Kit and Had It 'Legally Stolen' - <AUTHOR> https://petapixel.com/2018/10/29/how-i-lent-my-4500-camera-kit-for-95-and-had-it-legally-stolen/ <comment><USER3> I visited Kitsplit, holy misleading advertising batman.

> Your gear is always covered. KitSplit renters must show proof of insurance > coverage, which we vet, or they must buy it through us or leave a deposit > for the full value of the gear.

Always covered unless they just outright steal it, then not at all covered. There's numerous examples of similar text throughout their site. In fact I spent a good 15 minutes and finally found this mid way through the final paragraph of their insurance page:

> Please note, however, that the insurance accepted on KitSplit is industry > standard equipment rental insurance and does not cover some rare instances, > such as if a renter commits fraud.

They also say things like this:

> We strongly encourage all owners to have their own annual insurance policy > for their gear, in addition to the coverage provided by KitSplit. [..] We > strongly encourage all owners to review and understand the terms of their > insurance policy and what it covers and does not cover.

What they mean is that neither your insurance or theirs will cover fraud. So using the service, even double insured, is high risk.

> We are a small team of filmmakers and photographers

Kind of odd in contrast to what you said about yourselves about your most recent round of funding:

[https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kitsplit-the- camera...](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kitsplit-the-camera- rental-marketplace-raises-21-million-to-democratize-the-film-and-video- production-process-300603082.html)

<comment><USER4> Even when they say it it's still misleading. Fraud is not a layman's term. Theft or stealing is. The obvious takeaway for a normal person when seeing the words "rare" and "fraud" together like that is to assume that it means something other than stealing. Because people stealing nice cameras isn't even slightly rare.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is batshit insane.

There's exactly one thing a middleman company like this is supposed to be useful for, which is facilitating the transaction and standing behind it.

I have no idea why anyone is defending this company, their policy is obviously unethical unless they have very visible clear disclaimers equal in weight to their other communications saying they aren't responsible for the renter stealing from you. In which case it's just a dumb business model.

<comment><USER5> This. The best interpretation of this situation where KitSplit hasn't done anything dishonest still looks really bad for them.

At the point where you're already worrying about all of these details, why would you use KitSplit instead of just opening your own business and posting classifieds?

I ran into this with a photo company my parents used to use (Snapfish, no reason not to name them). My Mom called me up one night and said that some of her older photos wouldn't load any more. Did some debugging, contacted support, apparently the photos had just vanished during a database migration one day.

They gave me the same excuse -- "our service isn't meant to be used for backups and we don't guarantee any reliability." This is not something that they ever make clear in any advertising, but whatever. Thankfully I had my own backups of her computer, and afterwards I told her to stop using the service. My reasoning was, "even assuming that they weren't dishonest, you're left with a pretty crappy service that doesn't do anything." It's like buying a battery that doesn't guarantee that it will transmit power.

So the best case scenario for KitSplit that they want us to take away from this is... they're just a slightly fancier Ebay? Not a good advertisement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Lawyer here. Not legal advice.

Theft of property is criminal. Not sure how you reasoned yourself sideways on that with red tape bullshit. Sue the company and the renter in small claims court and have some fun with it. Company will be forced to deal with it and that might get them to eventually change their bullshit policy. Credit card of renter should be pre-auth'd for full replacement of new item. How they aren't doing that is negligent and asking for trouble. So is having an overly restrictive insurance policy. Makes me think the company has terrible legal counsel.

<comment> turk- Seems like a straightforward case for small claims court against KitSplit. You just have to sell the judge on a very straightforward case. The thing about not getting fucked over in situations like this is having the intestinal fortitude to bully companies like KitSplit into making it right for you. You'll probably get compensated by them by blogging about it but you probably could have just muscled them to give you your $4.5k in small claims court.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't see why KitSplit wouldn't just cover this out-of-pocket. If it really only happens 0.02% of the time, the cost of reimbursing the lender can't possibly be higher than amount of good-will lost by not doing so.

<comment><USER8> > If it really only happens 0.02% of the time

That may be the problem right there. It most likely happens far more frequently so they can't insure _and_ they can't self-insure. So the loss of good-will is small in comparison to the loss of funds. A broken model with sufficient marketing money behind it is indistinguishable from a working company right up until the moment the whole thing comes crashing down.

<comment><USER9> I just did the math on this and 0.02% of $4,000 is around $1, while KitSplit apparently charges 20% fees, or $20 on a $100 rental. It sure seems like they could afford to self-insure.

Or are you saying that they're lying about the 0.02%?

<comment><USER10> Likely. And even if they weren't lying, admitting full liability would be an incentive to fraud (arrange for your kit to be "stolen" by a co-conspirator, then collect the reimbursement) so you would probably see that percentage soar.

<comment><USER11> If you wanted to commit insurance fraud, you wouldn't get a third party involved (with some vetting process and photos), too much effort, leaves too much of a paper trail, etc.

You'd just smash a window or kick in a door then file a police report then an insurance claim.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Peter H here, the original author of this piece, with an update. I want everyone to know that while this has been a really trying situation, KitSplit has gone to great lengths to help. KitSplit has now fully compensated me for the full value of the gear that was lost, even though this is beyond their legal requirements. They've also assured me they are making improvements to their policies and will have additional updates soon. Even before this happened, I continued to use KitSplit —in part because I have been impressed with their customer service throughout this experience. Now, I am pleased that they went above and beyond to help, and are taking this as an opportunity to reflect and improve their system.

<comment><USER13> There's legal requirements, and then there's ethical requirements, which are not necessarily the same.

If they are supposedly vetting renters, then it should be incumbent upon them to stand behind their vetting. They should also very unequivocally state that if the renter just walks off with your gear you will not be compensated.

So sure, maybe you're getting repaid by KitSplit because you wrote a blog post about it, but what about everybody else who this has happened to. I doubt you're the only one. If they improve their practices because of this that's great, but the fact that it took months for them to come around, and only after they got some bad publicity, is not a good sign.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Ugh, that really sucks. I worked on the same idea back in 2013 before Kitsplit came around [0]. Funnily enough, theft didn't keep me up at night, damage did. Especially hard to detect internal damage.

I've met Lizbeth and Kristina and they are solid, thoughtful people committed to helping creators. I think they played this hand incorrectly, however. I can't figure out why they wouldn't eat the cost here and work with their insurance provider to get a 'voluntary separation' clause as part of their coverage so this doesn't happen in the future.

[0] - [http://dopeboy.github.io/Lessons/](http://dopeboy.github.io/Lessons/)

</comment><comment><USER15> This appeal by insurance companies to Voluntary Parting may be legal but it's wrong.

Suppose you are in Disneyland with your $4,500 camera. Someone comes up to you, pulls out a gun, and says, "Give me your camera." So you do. Is that not theft? Now suppose instead someone comes up to you and offers to take a picture of you and your family but then runs off with your camera. Somehow this falls outside of normal insurance and is called Voluntary Parting. This is ironic because the first instance is actually more voluntary, because at least you knew what was happening.

I suppose this began in the insurance industry to stop the bleeding by naive owners, who entrusted their stuff to someone that the average person would not. But it seems to me that this could have been dealt with in a clause about negligence, which is an established legal topic. There is no need to lie by calling it Voluntary.

Either way, I believe the writer's parting was neither voluntary nor negligent. KitSplit should cover it if the renter runs off with the gear --- or else make it abundantly clear that you need insurance and that you need to explicitly ask your insurance company for the extra coverage for "Voluntary Parting."

<comment><USER16> "Voluntary Parting" is just insurance contract lingo to absolve them of paying out in this particular scenario.

It's called so on purpose, to divert attention, in the spirit of the "PATRIOT" Act: the meaning is the opposite of what the name implies.

Any sane naming would call this "Not getting your shit back" exemption, but hey, that actually calls into question getting this insurance in the first place.

So, yes, no matter what KitSplit and their insurance say, the coverage is simply not there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Also, the author's choice of title is deceptive. He did not have it 'legally' lost in any way. Crime -- fraud or theft -- most certainly happened, which is why the police became involved. _(Note - the author twice mentions the involvement of the NYPD and once claims that the police refused to participate because it wasn 't a criminal matter. Perhaps he meant to say 'formerly of the NYPD' and 'from the PI', but it's at best unclear. I suspect the police refused to get involved with his civil dispute with the insurance company; the author is certainly not careful to distinguish between the various legal elements.)_

His insurance through KitSplit has a legally-sound clause allowing them to deny coverage for 'voluntary parting' (a term which explicitly includes criminal fraud). But that doesn't make the thief's actions legal.

Again IL-specific, but almost certainly generalizes: "theft" as far as the criminal code is concerned --- which is different than what an insurance contract means by the term --- happens whenever a person "knowingly obtains or exerts unauthorized control over property and intends" (through several possible mechanisms) "to deprive the owner permanently of the use of that property." [0] Definitely includes what happened here, definitely illegal on the thief's part.

0: [http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?ActID=1876&Ch...](http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqEnd=39200000&SeqStart=36500000) at "Sec. 16-1. Theft."

<comment><AUTHOR> And certainly, as many people have pointed out, "neglect" to return your rental car to Hertz and watch how quickly a warrant is issued for your arrest for GTA - it's certainly not considered "not a criminal matter".

<comment><USER18> Once I was a bit late and got back to the drop-off location after close. They tried their very best to make it impossible to drop-off after-hours (can't even slip keys under door).

When I called the rental co. to see what I could do (e.g. extend a day), their centralized call centre script went something like this:

"blah blah blah you had a contract with us, you have to immediately go drop the car off at one of these other locations, blah blah blah".

Why make me sound like a criminal when I called YOU to figure out a plan?

Anywho, came back the next day and paid for an extra day with no added penalties/handcuffs. Much more convenient than bee-lining it to their downtown location.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> It seems pretty obvious that the author was wronged by the renter. Also, it looks like this is not the first time that the robber stole something (illegally, even though the insurance is exempt from paying). So then why is the author hiding the robbers identity? In this case I would hope that the author would display all known pictures and information about the robber, in hopes that he will be found out at least shamed.

</comment><comment><USER20> Why are the photos of the thief blurred out? Convenience stores often have a "wall of shame" of shoplifters, is this any different?

Also,

>KitSplit has now fully compensated me for the full value of the gear that was lost

smells a lot like trying to fix the bad publicity around what's, frankly, a bullshit situation. If I rent a car from a rental company and just don't return it, is that """voluntary parting""" therefore not theft? I don't understand how the author got talked into thinking that this is somehow legally okay. If I were him I'd definitely be taking this to small claims court.

</comment><comment><USER21> Is this "Voluntary Parting" nonsense specific to KitSplit or is this more widespead in the industry. Anyone know? For example when I rent my car thru Turo they say the same thing.

<comment><USER11> From what I can tell, "voluntary parting" appears to be an insurance term not a legal one. Basically, it's just an exclusion on insurance coverage - <USER2> experience a loss under these circumstances, we won't cover it. The author is confusing insurance coverage with the law and claiming it was "legally stolen," which is nonsense.

Saw an article about a jewelry company gave a million and a half dollars worth of inventory to a fake armored car company and their insurance company denied the claim due to this exclusion and it was upheld on appeal, ouch.

They say it's a standard exclusion

>There are no gear rental insurance providers that cover voluntary parting when the renter purchases the policy. This treatment of voluntary parting is standard in the insurance industry and is not unique to KitSplit.

(I'm guessing a policy that covers "voluntary parting" is cost prohibitive. I guess it sorta makes sense - otherwise you wouldn't have an incentive to vet anyone.)

As an aside, I encourage everyone to always read their full insurance polic(ies), misunderstanding about insurance coverage is common.

<comment><USER22> I just watched an episode of Seinfeld where Jerry's car was stolen by his mechanic, but insurance wouldn't cover it because he gave the mechanic his keys (voluntary parting)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> "I still use KitSplit today, but not as much as I used to."

Did KitSplit give away his principles too?

<comment><USER24> His principles were "legally stolen".

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> This reminds me of a conversation I had with a coworker six or seven years ago. Dude comes to me to get me to help him spec out a web-based "tool sharing" service. I told him that what he was proposing, first and foremost, automated discovery for would-be tool thieves and politely declined to involve myself in his project.

</comment><comment><USER26> Why blur the photos?

<comment><USER9> Doxing isn't good, even for accused criminals. You could get sued or even (rarely) trigger some kind of vigilante justice overreaction.

<comment><USER27> >Doxing isn't good, even for accused criminals.

Sure it is, a cursory search of a person before going into business with him is wise to do and places like forums often dox serial scammers. This guy is going to continue to scam and it will take a long time before law enforcement actually does something. Having that information out there might save some people from getting screwed over in the future.

>You could get sued or even (rarely) trigger some kind of vigilante justice overreaction.

To be fair you could be sued for just about anything. By the sound of it, I don't think this guy is going to be able to fund a legal team. Also, unless you enticed a vigilante to 'go get him', I don't think you're liable posting details and an account of your experience. Blur out nonpublic information like his drivers license #, passport #, or SSN.

EDIT: I should add, I was a very early OTC bitcoin trader. We had these assholes that could come in and scam $10 paypal trades all day everyday. Part of having the details out for members like 'bitscotty' was so law enforcement could see it was a long and documented pattern. People who didn't research still got scammed, but their accounts afterward would get added to the pile and eventually the police actually took action.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> From Kitsplit's statement at the bottom of the article:

> _Our vetting system has successfully blocked millions of dollars worth of > theft, and our incidence rate is .02% in 2018._

How did they derive the "millions of dollars" figure? It feels like they're including everyone who fails their vetting process in their count — that's not a nice way to treat potential customers.

</comment><comment><USER29> if rentals are stolen 1% of the time won't they run out of cameras to rent fairly quickly?

</comment><comment><USER30> Can I "legally steal" a car when renting it?

<comment><USER31> Yes, if you don't return it when it's due and avoid the rental company. They will file it as stolen and you will be arrested and jailed when found.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Voluntary Parting?? Can this be extended to Voluntary Renting with companies like AirBnB or for hotels renting out their rooms?

</comment><comment><USER33> why do I feel like this is some kind of viral article made up in co-operation with kitsplit?

<comment><USER16> Because the author is not holding a grudge against KitSplit, perhaps?

Because other than that, the opinions here (including mine) are not at all positive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> If you're coming to the comments without reading the article, the company eventually fully oaid his camera despite how most commentors are acting. The situation was resolved - I don't know why people are suggesting legal action.

>I want everyone to know that while this has been a really trying situation, KitSplit has gone to great lengths to help. KitSplit has now fully compensated me for the full value of the gear that was lost, even though this is beyond their legal requirements.

<comment><USER35> Yes, they reimbursed the lender whose gear was stolen - but only after the case got bad publicity.

<comment><USER34> That is my point. People are recommending how the author can recoup his losses, even though he already has.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> YAWN.

You mean to tell me, that there's YET ANOTHER "crowd sharing" thing, that ends up screwing over more 'provider' users in the process?

Color me shocked!

</comment><comment><USER37> I take some issue with the $4,500 figure. Searching eBay for recently sold listings of used gear, a used Canon 5DS R is worth ~$1800, and the lens ~$600.

$2,500 is a long way off from $4,500. Even longer when you consider they short-changed him about $500, not $2,500.

I'm not defending the service; they should have just offered to replace the gear or offered a fair amount, but it's worth pointing out what the situation really is.

<comment><AUTHOR> I guarantee, as someone who just bought a used 24-70, that anything you get for 600 is going to be in a pretty mediocre condition. You're looking more like 1300. Glass doesn't lose its value. Similar with the body, there's more to it than "used" vs "new", quite a bit more.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Basically this entire article comes down to the fact that agents of KitSplit lied to his face in an online chat, and he wasn't savvy enough to keep a transcript of that chat.

I honestly don't feel any sympathy for the guy. Any time you're concerned about something and an agent of a company assures you of a particular outcome, e.g. "the insurance will cover it", you'd be completely foolish to a) _use that assurance to make your decision_ while also b) _not keeping a record of that assurance_. I try to do all my support by chat or email just for the papertrail.

It's worth noting that, at least in my state (IL), the criminal statute for consumer fraud explicitly does not require _mens rea_ (criminal intent) - merely a deceptive statement that leads the company toward financial gain. What's more, the statement doesn't actually have to be false (just deceptive), and the employee making it doesn't have to be aware if it's false.

That criterion would obviously be met here, and I would not hesitate to write the attorney general's consumer fraud department in this situation -- with the transcript I would have kept, of course. I've done so before for a health insurance dispute that basically mirrored the events in this story (being correctly wary, being assured by a corporate drone that things would be covered, then finding they are not covered).

Obviously criminal prosecutions under that statue are quite rare, but even so it's amazing how a company's "last offer" quickly becomes "here, let us give you literally everything you initially asked for" when it's a (free!) moderator from the AG's office writing on your behalf.

<comment><USER38> >I honestly don't feel any sympathy for the guy.

Really? Not even a little?

Guy generously loans out his expensive gear and gets it stolen, but you don't feel even a little sorry that was the outcome? Rather, you think it was his fault because he somehow _should have known better_?

I continue to be in awe of HN readers.

<comment><USER39> As a sibling mentions, there was nothing generous about this. You loan things to friends, but don't charge. That's generous. Renting is just a business transaction.

If you rent your apartment on AirBnB, congrats, you're in the landlord business. If you rent your equipment on whatever-the-site-is, congrats, you're in the equipment rental business. Both of those businesses have jerks in them, who are negligent and/or malicious. If you don't want to deal with the negligent and/or malicious, you shouldn't be in the rental business.

So -- unlike sibling -- I'm sympathetic, but really, dude wants to make money from the rental business without the downsides and he really ought to have known that's not how the world works.

<comment><USER40> This is why you go through an intermediary.... becuase you don't want to be in the camera renting business because of all the risks etc -- which is why the intermediary should have covered this.

<comment><USER39> I -- just spitballing numbers -- can't see how the intermediary can cover $4.5k in equipment while being paid $14.25/day. And, tbh, that should be pretty obvious.

<comment><USER5> Well, they claim that this happens less than one in a thousand rentals[0], so statistically speaking, a one time fee of $4.50 for the entire rental period should be about enough to cover their expected risk, right?

I don't buy the combination of, "this is rare so you shouldn't worry about it", and "it's too risky for us to cover you ourselves."

[0]: [https://intercom.help/kitsplit/trust-and-safety-on- kitsplit/...](https://intercom.help/kitsplit/trust-and-safety-on-kitsplit/im- an-owner-how-do-i-know-my-gear-will-be-safe-on-kitsplit-is-it-insured)

<comment><USER39> No. Even assuming that the $4.50 covers renter peacing out with the equipment, you still have to cover damage, which is probably far more common. And make a profit.

<comment><USER5> Okay. Add an optional $4.50 fee in addition to the current price and make it clear to lenders that it's not covered in the default situation while explaining the risk to them.

> _Even assuming_

Is my math wrong? I think that's how expected value works -- risk * cost. And the figures I'm referencing are directly from the company, so I assume they're accurate.

This all basically works out to the same point. If the expected cost over the lifetime of someone's rentals is so large that the company can't cover it, then it's crazy irresponsible for them to tell consumers not to worry about it. They can't have their cake and eat it too; either it's a trivial concern and they should cover it, or it's not a trivial concern and they should take steps to warn users.

The point of an intermediary is to not get bitten by things unexpectedly; to introduce confidence to consumers who don't have experience with the subject they're entering. Part of that is either prominently warning them about substantial risks that they might not otherwise know about, or pricing your product so that you can remove those risks for them.

<comment><USER39> Your math assumes that instances of theft are evenly distributed across the price of the gear. I'd bet they're not. ie if you're going to commit felony theft (about $5k in most places), you may as well steal $50k. Thus my guess is it biases high.

As for the company, my guess is they only have a profitable business if they don't actually fully insure and they dump a bunch of risk onto the people supplying the gear to rent. I doubt Adorama or BH are making so much money that there's a huge business opp _if_ you actually pay for all the risk (as Adorama and BH do because they rent their own stock.)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Minds Behind Some of the Most Addictive Games Around - <AUTHOR> http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/11/the-mind-behind-some-of-the-mo.html <comment><USER2> To this day I still play Plants Vs. Zombies. I've beaten it at least thrice, but... still gotta fill the gardens and finish the wisdom tree.</comment>


Flow9 programming language is now open source - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/area9innovation/flow9 <comment><USER2> The accompanying blog posts includes a lot more information and screenshots: [https://flow9.org/2019/04/26/why.html](https://flow9.org/2019/04/26/why.html)

Interestingly, the language seems similar in a lot of ways to [https://reasonml.github.io/](https://reasonml.github.io/) in that it is an ML-like language with a more C-family syntax with parentheses and braces, that can compile either to idiomatic JS or native code. There's also an in-progress cross platform UI library for Reason using a React-like style [https://github.com/revery-ui/revery](https://github.com/revery-ui/revery)

<comment><USER3> The article also links to Haxe. It looks like Haxe does not come with a cross- platform UI framework, but there are some projects that appear to do just that.

It seem that indeed Flow9 is the only thing I'm aware of that provides a great cross platform UI framework. There is Qt which targets desktop and mobile, and there are a whole bunch of JS solutions that target some but not all platforms.

I'm a bit weary of learning the language on its own merits, as it does not really seem to innovate over what I already know, but if I'd had to write a cross-platform app, it's definitely worth considering.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> My friend who works on Flow9 for something like two years was willing to answer questions, but his message did not get through the moderation in this thread I believe. Basically Flow is a functional language somewhat similar to OCaml (that's my naive understnding). It has multiple backends, and my friend who originally is a math teacher in university and develops theorem provers was hired to work on some of the backends, I think it was the Java backend. He is always so exited talking about Flow, and kept telling me for a about year that they are going to release it as open source and there is a lot of excitement because of that.

I wish they could build a community around this language at least as successful as OCaml's community is.

<comment><USER4> What do you mean by "not getting through the moderation"? Everyone is free to leave comments...

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure about this, all I know is he told me that he left the comment and the comment have never appeared.

<comment><USER5> Sometimes comments get caught in spam filters. I'm not seeing any case of that here, but if your friend's comments aren't visible, please tell him to email us at firstname.lastname@example.com so we can mark his account legit.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> > Flow is a complete platform for writing apps in a functional programming > language that can run everywhere.

It says that Flow apps run everywhere (Android, iOS and the browser via HTML5). Maybe I missed it, but how does it do this? Does it compile to a progressive web app?

<comment><USER7> > It says that Flow apps run everywhere (Android, iOS

I'm curious too since I did a quick browse and there doesn't seem to be any info/docs on generating an APK.

<comment><USER8> It has multiple backends. It can produce optimized JS, readable JS, typescript, and that can be used for progressive webapps. It also has a Java backend for server-side use and command line programs (such as the self-hosted compiler). It has a native bytecode, which is used for Android and iOS native apps. There is a 64-bit JIT for x64 for Linux, Mac, Windows for this bytecode as well. There is also a C++ backend, which can also be used for Android, iOS and desktop OSes. There is also a C# backend for Windows Phone, but since that platform is dead, it has bitrotted. Should not be too hard to resurrect if someone needs it. The language is relatively small, so easy to add a new backend. The biggest task is to port the runtime.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Doesn't seem to say whether it is an obligate-GC language, or supports something akin to the C++ destructor or the Rust "Drop trait". The JS target suggests GC, but that would not forbid programmed resource management.

Anybody?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've been told it's GC only in their Telegram channel.

"May cause memory leakege if used unproperly - f.e. not calling unsubscriber functions for so called behaviours. Read the following manual before use :)"

<comment><USER8> It is GC only. For our C++/bytecode target, we have an incremental, copying GC. For our experimental Wasm target, we have a ref-counted version.

<comment><USER10> Does the GC ( and the language ) support OS threads natively?

<comment><USER11> We have some support for concurrency in Java and JavaScript backends, see lib/sys/concurrent.flow.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Setup steps very strange

<comment><USER13> You are being downvoted, but I agree.

Look at [https://github.com/area9innovation/flow9/blob/master/doc/lin...](https://github.com/area9innovation/flow9/blob/master/doc/linux.markdown).

That's a lot of hoops for something that should probably be a precompiled binary.

<comment><USER8> We want to roll a Docker-image to make this easier, but did not get around to it yet. Contributions welcome.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I really like the jit implementation. small, fast, elegant, does not do much more than it needs to do: inline certain ops but not all, apply type specializations to some. x86_64 only.

</comment><comment><USER15> \- QtByteRunner is licensed under LGPL 3 [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-3.0.html](http://www.gnu.org/licenses/lgpl-3.0.html)

Does anyone how / where this is used? If it is in the runtime it would prevent embedded use (inside signed firmware) without making all code GPL..

<comment><USER16> Linking against lgpl code does not make the whole programm lgpl. Thats the point of the lgpl,in contrast to the gpl.

<comment><USER17> Dynamic linking is indeed specifically exempted with the LGPL, but static linking is not; building a statically-linked binary would require the whole program to be under the (L)GPL.

<comment><USER15> Exactly. And embedding in an app or firmware that needs to be signed before deployment, in other words, the end user cannot update the lpgl part and deploy this new binary on the device, is seen as static linking. Since lgpl 3 even the legal gray area of Tivonisation is taken care of.

Which might some people wonder if the use of flow9 in a closed source Android or iOS app is even allowed. Can the end users create a new version of the app with an updated version of the lpgl3 lib AND deploy this library on their device? Normally they can not, but you can provide your binaries and build scripts to be compliant. See also this answer (not by me): [https://stackoverflow.com/a/39438539](https://stackoverflow.com/a/39438539)

So in the end only for closed source non user updateable (signed) firmware, the use of LGPL3 is impossible. Think about most TV settop boxes or payment terminals.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Interesting. To quickly check this out on Windows, how about including a pre- compiled demos[1] app?

[1] [https://github.com/area9innovation/flow9/blob/master/demos/d...](https://github.com/area9innovation/flow9/blob/master/demos/demos.flow)

<comment><USER8> We want to enhance the web site to have some runnable demos, but did not around to it yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I could not find any information on how to compile the compiler itself. Trying to run this on CentOS 7 fails because it is looking for libjpeg.so.8, but CentOS provides libjpeg.so.62.

<comment><USER11> You need to rebuild QtByteRunner. Cd to platforms/qt/. There is a readme there for full explanation, but in short:

\- clone asmjit ([https://github.com/area9innovation/asmjit.git](https://github.com/area9innovation/asmjit.git)) into platforms/common/cpp folder first (eventually we'll move to upstream asmjit, we use our copy of this lib yet);

\- make sure you have Qt 5.12.0 (or upper) available in your system;

\- review paths in QtByteRunner.pro, they're usually fit our needs, but in some cases may require changes;

\- run build.sh, it'll produce binary for your system.

Then you'll be able to run flowcpp tool.

<comment><USER11> The call chain is:

\- you run flowcpp and feed it with .flow file;

\- flowcpp see that it is source file and calls compiler

\- compiler produces .bytecode file

\- flowcpp executes .bytecode file and runs file you called.

You can call compiler directly with flowc or flowc1 commands.

<comment><USER19> Great, thanks for the explanation!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> What's tooling like? Would be keen to jump on if, say, generating a web app, an exe, and an apk were straightforward, but it seems to be anything but that.

</comment><comment><USER21> Great news ! I was waiting for it for more then a year!

</comment><comment><USER10> What does it mean that it has an incremental compiler? Does it support hot code reloading like Common Lisp?

<comment><USER11> It means compiler caches results of module compilation and reloads them if module didn't change. Hot code reloading is not supported.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Why open sourcing this ? I don't see any article mention this one.

<comment><USER11> Take a look: [https://blog.area9lyceum.com/area9-open-sources-flow- program...](https://blog.area9lyceum.com/area9-open-sources-flow-programming- language?utm_content=90573232&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&hss_channel=fbp-1190854631047462)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> > Meet flow > flow is a simple, functional language in the ML family

Cool!

> C-family syntax > Designed to look like other languages and be easy to learn

Uh, what? A functional language is going to be easy to learn because it "looks like other languages"? "C-family syntax" is what makes a language easy to learn? Gee, why didn't I think of that...

<comment><USER24> > A functional language is going to be easy to learn because it "looks like > other languages"? "C-family syntax" is what makes a language easy to learn?

Facebook had the same rationale with Reason, so it's not unusual.

[https://reasonml.github.io/docs/en/what-and- why](https://reasonml.github.io/docs/en/what-and-why)

>Reason is not a new language; it's a new syntax and toolchain powered by the battle-tested language, OCaml. Reason gives OCaml a familiar syntax geared toward JavaScript programmers, and caters to the existing NPM/Yarn workflow folks already know.

<comment><USER23> I know it's not "unusual"... I've seen the same wrong-headed reasoning many times before. But syntax is rarely a significant obstacle to learning a language, it's the semantics that bite! And when the semantics are significantly different I think that a familiar syntax might make things harder rather than easier by confusing form and function.

Also, Reason catch on much?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Naming it like Facebook's Flow [https://flow.org/](https://flow.org/) might not be the smartest idea.

<comment><USER13> Reading the article might help.

> Flow was conceived almost 9 years ago

<comment><USER26> Not sure it matters seeing as Facebook's Flow is already more popular. Good luck searching for "How do I [X] in flow" without getting more result for Facebook's Flow.

Even if Facebook's Flow never existed, the word "flow" is a challenging term to search for and was a poor name for both Flow9 and Facebook's Flow.

<comment><USER27> So, bad SEO might turn the tide against these guys?

Can we get a rap about that?

<comment><USER28> I think there ought to be a verse for Go too.

<comment><USER6> I always search for "golang" instead of "go", seems to provide good results. Same with crystal, searching for "crystal lang" seems to help.

Slight inconvenience, but not a deal breaker.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Fortnite Eclipses Facebook, Instagram as Tweens' Preferred Social Platform - <AUTHOR> https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fortnite-eclipses-facebook-instagram-as-tweens-preferred-social-platform-1217335 <comment><USER2> Mostly sensationalism. What the hells a "social platform" anyway?

Fortnite is free and accessible (pc, mobile, console). It's a popular game, but like all games, the attention will eventually fade and players will move on. The user base will get older and have different tastes.

</comment><comment><USER3> Interesting, I'm not well versed in Fortnite but could they be a threat to Facebook by doing some slight pivot technology wise?

<comment><USER4> Looks like we won't have to wait too long to find out!

[https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/12/fortnite-maker-epic- acquir...](https://techcrunch.com/2019/06/12/fortnite-maker-epic-acquires- social-video-app-houseparty/)</comment></comment>


UX Rockstar or Programming Rockstar? - <AUTHOR>

This was the premise for a new blog post, but nobody reads my blog and I'm interested in other peoples opinions.<p>Consider you're working on a new web startup.  You need to hire one designer and one programmer.  You have four applications and each candidate is completely devoted your product, 2 are rockstars and 2 are average.  Due to budget limitations, you can only take one rockstar.  Which do you take, the UX rockstar or the programming rockstar? <comment><USER2> Definitely programmer. An average designer and a "rockstar" programmer (if he is truly a rockstar programmer) can make a web startup significantly better than what a great UX designer and average programmer can do. UX is important but almost without a doubt your UX will evolve over time and the one used in the beginning will almost never stand the test of time (hopefully the technology behind it will for the most part). Obviously you dont want terrible usability but overall if you have great usability and buggy applications then you will not succeed in the end anyway.

<comment><AUTHOR> What about Twitter? If this is true, shouldn't the "fail whale" have plagued the company years ago?

<comment><USER2> A valid argument, but one that i would suggest is only because of a lack of competition, similar to the facebook/myspace/friendster battle I think if it were early enough someone could still have come along and ousted twitter with a more reliable site. That said, it certainly never came true. As with any rule I believe this one has exceptions to it, but in the end I think my advice holds true for most startups even if it does not for all.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting, I would actually take the opposite approach. When it comes to startups, I don't think rockstar programming is really enough to set a company apart. While the company is small some bad code shouldn't send it to the grave. Code is invisible; the users will never see it and as long as it works it shouldn't matter if it's elegant object-oriented programming or unorganized "spaghetti" code. If a programmer is truly committed to the project, they will make it work and that should be all that matters.

The user experience however, needs to be excellent from the start. A startup may pick up some early, tech-savvy adopters if there is a very cool technology, but with a poor user experience the general population will never adopt the new technology.

That said, your point about the UX needing to evolve is well-taken. Do you think users preferred Facebook over MySpace because of its programming or because of its user experience?

<comment><USER2> "Do you think users preferred Facebook over MySpace because of its programming or because of its user experience?" I think it was a combination of the two, but that is my whole point to start with. As someone who was a member of facebook when it was still "thefacebook" if you remember in the beginning the UX was very basic, people flocked to it because of its exclusivity to an extent and they stayed (at least in my opinion) because they weren't having the constant downtime they were used to experiencing with a site like "friendster". Facebook was the site that people stayed on because it was fun "facebook stalking" became a hobby for many, that had much less to do with the UX then most people would lead you to believe. My basic point is that while a good UX is a necessity in the beginning a great one is not, because your users will demand what they want in usability. But with a faulty system or code that is constantly being chopped and hacked the growth of your system and frequent downtime for fixes could very well be your downfall.

EDIT: I would also like to say that I do NOT think your "code is invisible" statement really holds true. Good code is elegant in itself, it allows for subtle flaws to be hidden, and neat little tricks that a good hacker can make happen is what excites users and makes them come back for more, even if they don't know it is code doing it, they can see it and it does make a diffrence. (at least in my opinion)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> It depends on the complexity and difficulty of your app. If it's very difficult to create then get the rockstar programmer with hopefully some average UX skills.

If your app is not that complicated to make and intuitiveness matters a lot than get the UX guy.

When you refer to UX guy do you mean he's a designer? Can't you give the programmer instructions for the UI? For example, I'm great with UX but I'm neither a designer, nor a programmer. I'm a perfectionist and I want the products to be as easy to use as possible, or to look very good.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes sorry, the UX guy makes the product easy to use and look good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Since I consider myself a UI/UX designer, this surprised me, but I'm gonna say hire the programmer.

Reason being, you've just started and need to iterate quickly to get something valuable working. It doesn't matter if it looks good if it's not something people want.

Once you're up and running, and collecting user feedback, you'll have the data a great UX designer needs to work with.

</comment><comment><USER5> Contract the UX design. Have a UX designer provide you with wireframes and functional specs. Have a artist (it may be the UX designer) provide you with a PSD comp. Hire the programmer to implement the UI as designed.

<comment><AUTHOR> Although I agree with your order, I don't think it really addresses the question. If my budget limitations force me to compromise on either the user experience or the code, which should be compromised?

<comment><USER5> OK sorry, I was under the assumption that you did not have the revenue to carry both full time. Not that you can only afford one and not have enough left to contract someone on a short term basis. That is a tough one.

Now this is coming from my context and it has a lot to do with how we develop applications, but we do not do server side UI development for the web anymore, we do all of our UI work with JavaScript that communicates to REST services on the back end (we build web apps, not web sites).

Given that disclaimer, I personally would go with the UX designer, so long as s/he is a UX developer that writes the UI. An average back end developer can usually stand up some services that will suffice.

For my group, our reputation is that we can provide web apps that simplify business workflow or increase customer conversion so it is our bread and butter. Please keep that in mind because it naturally creates a bias in my logic.

As well though I think a UX developer (that only does UX) is less utilitarian and therefore if you can afford it, it would be the highest candidate to hire a short term consultant to provide the brain dump for someone else to implement.</comment></comment></comment>


Gene name errors are widespread in the scientific literature (2016) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7 <comment><USER2> The amount of time I have wasted dealing with this in the past, and no doubt in the future, is much greater than I would like to admit. It highlighted the importance of plain text csv/tsv files and regular file backup/duplications. In my opinion Excel should be avoided at all costs when doing the majority of analyses, however for ease of use and data linkage sometimes it can't be avoided.

However, I don't understand why Excel wont allow the user to set a standard format for blank cells (i.e. plain text) and maintain that format until the end of time, unless the user specifically resets it.

Select all, format cell before pasting data into a sheet should work as expected. However, formatting is ignored as soon as anything is pasted into the spreadsheet.

I can't help but find this ridiculous. Is that too much to ask for? Is this behaviour more convoluted to implement or are there unforeseen consequences that are beyond me?

</comment><comment><USER3> I've had the same problem in Google Sheets with student codes at schools I've worked at. The standard code is first three letters of surname then a sequential 4 digit number. So Jane Martin might be MAR0011 if she was the 11th person with a surname starting with Mar. Now Google Sheets for some stupid reason interprets MAR0011 as March 2011. Excel at least only falls for this if the number is recognizable as a year (e.g. MAR2011) which is very unlikely in most school for a few years yet. There are also plenty of surnames starting with Jul and Jun.

I would have thought that Google (and possibly Excel) might have a saner approach that considers the context of the rest of the column. A single date value in a column of hundreds of text values should be probably treated as text, or at the very least set of a big red flag in the UI.

<comment><USER4> Trying to guess the format of arbitrary pasted values is nuts, and I don't know how it has persisted for so long.

Another fun one is Excel truncating datetime values when you open a CSV. I love those bug reports where somebody tells me a report is incorrect and attaches the raw CSV, which is completely correct.

<comment><USER5> "Trying to guess the format of arbitrary pasted values is nuts, and I don't know how it has persisted for so long."

The answer to this question, and a number of other people's similar questions in this thread, is the sheer overwhelming quantity of people who would complain if this behavior was changed, ranging from mumbling to serious threats to not buy the software if it isn't changed back made to Microsoft's CEO.

The problem is that the belief-set that says this is a crazy thing to do is a very programmer-y one. Being a programmer myself, I fully agree. But there's a lot of people who not only won't understand any proposed solution, but won't even agree that what you're describing is a _problem_. To many people, it sounds like a feature, and they will tell you they use it all the time, and they will tell you it has never seriously bitten them. In the latter case, for a rather large set of people, it'll be true... of course there will be a decidedly non-trivial set of people as well whom it _has_ bitten, but they just don't know it. But note those people will still be in the set of people who will claim taking the "feature" away is something they would hate, precisely because they don't know it has bitten them!

And even if you do convince them there's a problem, they'll probably still disappoint you by continuing to resist the idea of forcing them to be clear about the type of data they're entering, and "solve" the problem by adding yet more layers of guessing, such as askvictor's suggestion.

It's really, really hard to create a tool that can successfully force users to think more clearly than they already are, and if you do pull it off, users probably won't like it and stop using and buying it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There was once a story about a clinical trial being scrapped because it was based on a one-off error in a list of genes.

</comment><comment><USER7> I found the best solution is to quote everything from a tsv or csv file, in case someone requests a dataset in xlsx format. but whenever I get an xlsx file, I just learnt to always check for dates, it is sometimes possible to get around this if there are other identifiers or genomic coordinates, but some gene names will be converted to the same date, which leaves it impossible to backtrack the original genename.

Unfortunately it does not look like something to be solved:

QUOTE: "Microsoft Excel is preprogrammed to make it easier to enter dates. For example, 12/2 changes to 2-Dec. This is very frustrating when you enter something that you don't want changed to a date. Unfortunately there is no way to turn this off. But there are ways to get around it."

Source: [https://support.office.com/en-us/article/stop- automatically-...](https://support.office.com/en-us/article/stop- automatically-changing-numbers-to-dates-452bd2db-cc96-47d1-81e4-72cec11c4ed8)

</comment><comment><USER8> I've seen wrong definitions for fractals ("non integer fractal dimension") so many times in what I thought were peer reviewed papers (usually they're not math papers though heh)

</comment><comment><USER9> The good news is that the HGNC is actively going around changing the really terrible gene names into ones that don't cause trouble.

</comment><comment><USER10> The findings are well known, but I find it a bit ironic that the authors provide supplementary material as an Excel file...

<comment><USER11> In all likelihood, the authors are aware of this irony. Journals can be very rigid organizations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> You basically can't use HGNC names in bioinformatics. It's much better to use identifiers like ESENBML IDs or whatnot.</comment>


Z-410: How ZFS is slowly making its way to Mac OS X - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/03/how-zfs-is-slowly-making-its-way-to-mac-os-x.ars

<comment><USER2> This. I want this!

Hard disks are the only part of a computer that is not replaceable. Everything that improves data integrity is improving computer usage as a whole. Improving data integrity is improving user confidence in the machine. This is something that OSes should have done years ago. All any user ever does on a machine is manipulate and work with his personal data. Absolute data integrity should be paramount to any computing technology.

Alas, it is not, and we all have (hopefully) several backups. Again: Anything that improves data integrity is improving computing as a whole. I want this.

</comment><comment><USER3> "16 exabytes ought to be enough for anybody"

</comment><comment><USER4> > _"There's a huge chasm between using Xsan over Fibre Channel and a USB drive > with Time Machine," Brady told Ars. "That middle piece is what we're looking > at—users that want the convenience of a device like a Drobo, but with more > reliability and [easy verifiability]."_

So, ultimately, this is a hardware play, then. That makes sense, because most of the features of ZFS don't add any value to a Mac with a single internal drive and at most one or two USB drives, which is how almost all Macs are used.

<comment><USER5> Except you could do better-than-time-machine, cheap, continuous replication.

You could even TimeMachine-without-additional-drives... I mean, why should my snapshot system and my backup system be one? How about letting me use TimeMachine locally, and if I plug up an additional drive, TimeMachine asks me if I want to backup to it as well?

Not a game-changer exactly, but a nice-ish upgrade potentially.

The biggest upgrade would honestly just be quicker/continuous replication that doesn't drag the rest of your system down.

<comment><USER4> > _You could even TimeMachine-without-additional-drives... I mean, why should > my snapshot system and my backup system be one? How about letting me use > TimeMachine locally, and if I plug up an additional drive, TimeMachine asks > me if I want to backup to it as well?_

Unless something changes between now and RTM, Lion will provide that feature out of the box:

[http://www.9to5mac.com/54117/time-machine-can-be-used- withou...](http://www.9to5mac.com/54117/time-machine-can-be-used-without-an- external-hard-drive-in-lion/)

And that's about the only feature that a typical Mac user would benefit from with ZFS, without some kind of "prosumer" or "enterprise-y" external storage device.

<comment><USER5> I almost always use lzjb compression. It's nearly free and gives good returns for mixed data like the sort you'll find on system drives. Binaries, text, etc.

Also the reliability aspect. I haven't had HFS+ go bad on my own systems, but I've seen it several times on servers. It's on about the same level as ext3fs in that arena, which is pretty bad in my book.

I get the "less is more" argument and I agree generally. ZFS is so far beyond a traditional FS though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Does ZFS do anything to optimize for SSDs?

<comment><USER7> There are three ways you can use SSDs with ZFS. First, you can use SSDs in place of rotating rust. Second, as was previously mentioned, you can use an SSD as an extension of your filesystem cache. That's called Level-2 Adaptive Replacement Cache (L2ARC). You can also use an SSD as a logging disk to accelerate writes; that's called "Logzilla", IIRC.

In commercial offerings built around these features, you typically source an SSD that is either write-biased (logzilla) or read-biased, depending on what you are trying to do.

<comment><USER8> Just some formal clarifications:

Logzilla's formal name is ZIL, ZFS Intent Log. Generally these are SLC flash SSD's, mirrored as losing the ZIL on a ZFS pool can lead to "interesting" recovery situations.

L2ARC is basically an extension of main memory used to cache data from the drives. If you lose L2ARC, there aren't any serious consequences. Usually L2ARC is implemented with less expensive MLC flash SSD's.

On a related note, Seagate sells a Hybrid SSD+rust drive called the Momentus XT which uses it's 4GB of flash a similar manner to the L2ARC.

<comment><USER5> I'm pretty sure the ZIL is not mirrored. If it were, it wouldn't increase performance since you'd still have to wait for the disks to fsync their copy to guarantee reliability.

This is why Sun Storage products (and Nexenta, or homegrown clusters) put the ZIL SSDs in the JBODs and not the storage heads.

You could of-course create a pool that did use a disk as the ZIL, but again, there'd be no point since the mirror has to be kept consistent otherwise it's worthless.

Since the cache (L2ARC) is just cache, and you can lose it at anytime without data-loss, it _is_ in the heads.

Nit-picking. To be clear, the ZIL can (and should be) mirrored, you just want to do it with SSDs consistently. Mixing devices is possible, but you'll be limited to the performance of the slowest device. You can also create storage clusters with multiple heads. Again, a good idea IMO, but the ZIL is a critical component of the FS. If you lose it, you lose the whole pool (as a rule I think, but there might be clever hacks around that under special circumstances if you're lucky). So if you're going to multi-home your zpool, make sure the ZILs are in the shared-storage region. It's no good having redundant controllers if your ZIL is on the dead one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> We've seen in the past that Apple is willing to adopt superior technology. They saw the potential of adopting a unix system as well as adopting an Intel chip. This allows them to provide the same user experience while providing those users with power, should they want it.

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice. I just started using zfs on a home linux server. We have some large Macs, too, it would be nice to have better data integrity there.

<comment><USER11> Try it on FreeBSD or Solaris 11, in general I have found it to perform better on the same hardware.

<comment><USER12> After many many disk benchmarks, we eventually found that ZFS had the best performance of all the other included file systems on the latest version FreeBSD. I highly recommend the combination.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Now Apple just has to buy them and make it standard.

<comment><USER14> I think the article explains why this isn't going to happen.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you run Linux tools on macOS - <AUTHOR> I've been using Linux on my MacBook for several years and now I'm considering switching back. However, there are lots of tools (mostly command line) that I used, and from what I remember, a lot of them had little quirks, installation was from times to times cumbersome, sometimes they'll bug on something etc, etc. That's why I thought about running Linux directly - preferably with access from terminal. I don't suspect that I'll need to run GUI apps. Filesystem synchronisation is a must though (I would appreciate if macos root filesystem was mounted somewhere, and conversely, linux root is mounted somewhere).<p>I would like to avoid VirtualBox and other traditional solutions, as they bring much overhead. What are some reliable setups? <comment><USER2> Homebrew where the package is available and Docker where it's not. But I'd just stay with Linux. The only reason I'm using homebrew is because new MBP is broken enough it can't run Linux natively.

</comment><comment><USER3> Pkgsrc is pretty good, though it often doesn't have the latest shiny util or tool.

[https://pkgsrc.joyent.com/install-on-osx/](https://pkgsrc.joyent.com/install- on-osx/)

<comment><USER4> Can you share a quick pros/cons vs brew and/or macports?

<comment><USER3> Sorry, I've not used brew or macports. I also use NetBSD and SmartOS, and they too use pkgsrc so my familiarity with it might be some of the reason I use it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> brew install coreutils findutils gnu-sed gnu-awk curl ...

And add coreutils to your path:

export PATH="/usr/local/opt/coreutils/libexec/gnubin:$PATH"</comment>


How Stable Are Democracies? 'Warning Signs Are Flashing Red' - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/world/americas/western-liberal-democracy.html <comment> norea-armozel I think the problem with democratic governments today is the fact that they're winner-take-all. And it's taken to such a extreme that even city governments which have been more socially liberal in the past decade are being overruled by state governments being dominated by socially conservative politicians. They claim that such actions are "needed" to "preserve order." Yet, what I'm seeing here is the antithesis of order since to overrule a city government which is closest to the community of citizens they represent is inherently anti-democratic. This has been a common thread through this election cycle in the United States where communities that are clearly not in step with their state governments are being forced to conform. I'm just waiting for the same social conservatives to make it a mandate that corporations have to abide by government approved "social conventions" to just negate the non-discrimination clauses in employment contracts (just as a way to ensure total compliance to their view of reality). Because the only solution I see for any of this is a radical form of local democracy with proportional representation at higher levels of government to take hold and overturn the current system as it is.

<comment><USER2> > I think the problem with democratic governments today

Was this not a problem with democracies in the past?

<comment> norea-armozel Yes, but I think those in the past are irrelevant beyond giving us lessons as to how to fix ours.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Democracy are only stable as long as the surplus generated bribes everyone into holding still. This is gone.

If only we had used the time, to craft tools that will keep a minima of society, science and education going even in troubled times.

<comment><USER4> > the surplus

What are you referring to? If you mean economics, the major democracies are wealthier than ever.

<comment><USER5> Wealth doesn't matter in itself as much as the distribution of total wealth (and relative wealth). Humans are social animals, they don't just want something to munch and some cover over their head (not to mention that millions don't even have those), they want to do at least as good as what's perceived as average for their society.

<comment><USER6> If that's truly the case, then all societies everywhere have a permanent and insurmountable Lake Woebegone ( where all the children are above average ) problem.

<comment><USER5> I don't see how. For one, "at least as good as what's perceived as average for their society" is totally feasible without everybody being "above average".

Second, even that was meant as the thing people strive for and want to have. That doesn't mean that they are only satisfied if they accomplish it and then some, they can also be ok with being below, but close, to the average.

But even more importantly, the key word is "perceived average". They want to be close to what they consider average ("middle class") family lifestyle at least. Not necessarily close to its absolute mathematical definition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Particularly chilling are the responses to the question of how essential it is to live in a democracy. They graph the answers by the decade in which the respondents were born:

* U.S.: 1930s: 75%, 1980s: ~30%, with a straight line between them.

* U.K.: 58 - 30% (with a jagged line)

(See the graphs in the article for more.)

<comment><USER7> Democracy doesn't feel like democracy when people with your culture (political party, part of the country, etc.) lose power. When some other culture is running the show and antagonizing you every day, non-democratic solutions can look pretty appealing. You might be willing to do anything to fix the situation. You justify it, because the alternative is WRONG in your mind.

BTW, this applies to both sides. Don't imagine that one culture in your country -- especially your own -- is immune to this sort of thinking.

<comment><USER8> What is your culture? America is a melting pot of many different cultures. One dominant culture, and many sub-cultures. When the dominant culture is not curtailed we see all sorts of problems, which academia has enumerated. So the dominant people in the dominant culture feel powerless. Because when they are not in this position, according to academia, bad things happen. Take that how you want to take it. Governments are okay with this because they want to dis- empower people, in order to control and manage them better, and this is but one way of doing that.

<comment><USER9> I don't think there is a dominant culture in the US. The power of the American culture is it's ability to assimilate other cultures and integrate them in.

<comment><USER4> > I don't think there is a dominant culture in the US.

I think that's a stretch. You will note that most of the country, from business to government to IT, is run by people of the same skin color, socio- economic class, and gender. Those people also fill higher education (sans the gender) the stepping stone to opportunity too. Look at photos of the US Senate, Fortune 500 CEOs, etc.

That doesn't make them the same 'culture', however the word and its groupings are defined (it's always nebulous), but clearly there are cultures that are largely excluded.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> How much longer before the U.S. sees some event?

<comment><USER11> Well, the first terrorist attack after Trump takes office, so about 3 months from now.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Who's hiring (for H-1B)? | Dec 2010 - <AUTHOR>

I ask because there are not many startups that I know of (I'm probably looking in the wrong place?) that also take H-1B candidates into consideration.
I see all these awesome potential job opportunities on HN, but it's never clear whether a H-1B candidate would also be considered, as that is 99% never explicitly stated.
So - anyone hiring that'll sponsor or do H-1B visa transfers? <comment><USER2> Do you know _any_ startups that take H-1B candidates? I looked into it because I very much wanted to hire a particular candidate, but the fees, time, and legal expertise required are nearly insurmountable to a young company, in my opinion.

<comment><USER3> We did it at an early funded startup, I don't completely remember but I think it cost us around $20k including the lawyer we hired to take care of it. The guy was a superstar though, he was more than worth it to us.

I also saw it happen at a startup that initially relied heavily on outsourcing, after a couple years they started bringing some of the best Indian guys in-house.

<comment><USER4> If I remember correctly from a couple years back, H1-B Homeland security fees are around $3k and if you hire a lawyer for the process you'll have to add at least another $1k.

It's not cheap, but it is certainly not that expensive, as those fees will usually be less than 1 month's salary of the hired developer.

In my opinion, timing constraints and uncertainty end up being a bigger deterrent: you can only apply on April, the visa start the following October and it takes a while to know whether the applicant was selected.

<comment><USER5> As far as I know, only applying in April is incorrect. In past years the quotas ran out almost immediately when they started in April, so that was essentially the case. This year the quota hasn't run out yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Bump is hiring and will definitely do H1B sponsorship. I believe visa difficulty can vary by country though e.g. India may be more difficult.

We are hiring for server(python/redis/mongo/C)/operations/Android/DESIGN.

<http://bu.mp/jobs>

Please also mail hackernews@ourdomain to get above the noise.

</comment><comment><USER7> We just hired 2 engineers on an H1B. It's expensive and complicated, but for important hires it's worth it. And in a startup every hire can mean life or death.

An important caveat: H1B allows ZERO flexibility in the equity/cash mix. You must offer market salary or the visa will be denied. Immigration ignores equity entirely.

<comment><USER8> How expensive is "expensive"? For us, it seems to be in the neighborhood of what you'd pay for relo; in other words, international candidates just cost double relo.

Relative to fully-loaded cost, it just doesn't seem to be that big a deal.

<comment><USER7> Yes, that's our experience as well. For a qualified candidate it's a no- brainer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> There are plenty startups that sponsor H1-Bs. Sponsoring an H1-B is not the bottleneck sometimes when it comes to hiring. Even small consultant shops with less than 5 people do H1-Bs. But many applicants will want to think twice about it in case they plan on applying for employment based permanent residency. An H1-B is valid for three years and can be extended for another three for a total of 6 years. After that you can continue to extend it IF you have a permanent residency application that is pending.

The issue for startups happen when you take a permanent residency application into account. For instance, I had a friend who got into two great startups who were willing to sponsor H1-Bs. He really wanted to work at either. However, he also wanted to apply for his permanent residency within 2 years to continue staying in the US. However, a company needs to have certain revenue (besides other minimium requirements) to be able to apply for a green card. Both the companies checked with their lawyers and they did say that it was a big risk factor when it came to applying for a permanent residency. So he actually ended up passing both offers.

In retrospect he would have been fine since both companies ended up getting acquired by Intel and Google, where he would have been fine. But that is part of the risk involved.

</comment><comment><USER10> Yes they do. I just got a h1b job. This is my blog post on that - <http://sans-voir.livejournal.com/9189.html>.

<comment><USER11> Wow, I am trying to do what you did.

In fact I tried your option 2 (get a job at big co and ask relocation), though that was in Canada, but got rejection after onsite interviews.

You relieved my feelings -- most of my friends say it's absurd not to go through the usual university path.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Academia.edu hires H-1b candidates. We just did two H-1b applications for two of our employees. Whether someone needs a visa for the US doesn't enter into our hiring decision-making process at all. We're exclusively focused on hiring the best software engineers.

Academia.edu's jobs page is here <http://academia.edu/hiring>, and a description of our engineering culture is here <http://academia.edu/hiring/software_engineer>. We're a team of 7, are backed by leading VCs and angels, and are based in downtown San Francisco. We're growing fast right now and are looking to hire smart engineers!

</comment><comment><USER13> Boston (US) as well as London (UK) - youDevise, Ltd.

We're a 60-person financial-software firm committed to learning and improvement as well as great web software and agile development. We're hiring developers and other smart folks of many kinds. See <http://www.youdevise.com/careers> and <https://dev.youdevise.com>.

We help successful candidates relocate to London or Boston including arranging visas where needed. For example, earlier this year we hired an HN reader from Denmark and we moved a Polish employee to Boston.

<comment><USER14> Nice. Gonna brush up the resume a little bit and then apply for Junior IT Support Specialist. I mean, I know this is HN but the guys who know almost everything else besides programming are very often ignored completely here.

How about competent beta testers, or sysadmins like someone else said here?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Compete.com does H1B's. But Compete's not a startup anymore.

You should be looking at startups with at least a few US employees. Currently, I think you'll find it rare for a startup with < 3-4 US employees to be able to sponsor an h1b. Homeland security has been getting pretty strict about this.

I believe it generally costs about ~$6k to sponsor one. More if you premium process.

</comment><comment><USER16> imo.im is hiring.

<https://imo.im/jobs.html>

<comment><USER16> While our jobs page doesn't specifically say that we sponsor H-1Bs, we do. At least 3 of our current employees have H-1B visas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> An interesting question and if there's one takeaway from this: startups, please could you mention on your jobs pages (not just this thread!) whether you will look at non-US candidates?

It's time consuming applying to places that either won't take H1-B applicants, or who aren't likely to get USCIS to approve the H1-B transfer even if we already have the visa.

</comment><comment><USER18> Just make sure you have enough years of combined education and work experience. I wasn't able to get an H1-B for that reason, even though the company told me they could obtain it no problem.

</comment><comment><USER19> Er... Not sure if you guys know, there is also H1B1, it's a variation of H1B. More for both Chile and Singapore citizen to work in USA for short term. I am not sure about the fees though.

</comment><comment><USER20> Do you know any startups that take H-1B candidates for system administration jobs? I know this is HackerNews but our species (of sysadmins) must be still needed for some :)

<comment><USER21> Not exactly a startup (but less than 100 employees), but the company I work for is hiring sysadmins (both internal and as consultants for remote work). We are taking H-1B candidates and I'd love to stop being the only H-1B employee in the company :)

We are also looking for DBAs: Oracle, MySQL and even SQL-Server.

You can read my blog post about my experience with the company: [http://www.pythian.com/news/16887/learning-on-the-job- some-t...](http://www.pythian.com/news/16887/learning-on-the-job-some- thoughts-from-mots/)

And apply here: <http://candidates.pythian.com/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I remember seeing Heroku mentioning it - <http://jobs.heroku.com/ruby_web_developer>

</comment><comment><USER8> We'll talk to H1-B candidates. Please, let's not fragment the hiring threads even further than they already are.

</comment><comment><USER23> flyRuby (see <http://www.flyruby.com>) is hiring aggressively and considers H-1B sponsorship on a case to case basis. We also try and leverage the OPT period if possible before transitioning to an H-1B as required.

<comment><USER24> You're called flyRuby, but are only hiring Lisp and PHP programmers?

<comment><USER25> _The ruby is a pink to blood-red colored gemstone_

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby></comment></comment></comment>


Google turns to Detroit for partnerships on self-driving cars - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577365792554560470.html?mod=dist_smartbrief

<comment><USER2> First, this is a bullshit article behind a paywall. Second, it _leads_ with:

 _"We're talking to every car company to see what their level of excitement is," said Anthony Levandowski, head of ..._

So it certainly seems that Detroit has not been singled out in any way, unless it's revealed later in the article. Just out of personal stereotype, I'd have to guess that detroit would be the last to embrace innovation and chance along these lines - Toyota or Honda would be cut throat to have these innovations first (to say nothing of the Korean industry which is constantly copying in a misguided effort to out-innovate)

</comment><comment><USER3> We may not get flying cars but we'll have self-driving cars.</comment>


Google's wildly popular goal-setting tool - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/08/google-wildly-popular-goal-setting-tool-is-free-to-download-and-so-easy-to-use.html <comment><USER2> The tool is one sentence (personal or work-life-balance goal) printed out, e.g. "I want to go to the gym twice per week". Then ask your manager and peers to hold you accountable.

I'm surprised one can write 1000 word blog post to announce it and then a newspaper another 1000 words reporting on it.

> Years of research to create "One Simple Thing"

> Oh, and it's completely free.

I downloaded the PDF. It's indeed a single page with a big box where you can write down you goal.</comment>


Hacker leaks passwords for 900 enterprise VPN servers - <AUTHOR> https://www.zdnet.com/article/hacker-leaks-passwords-for-900-enterprise-vpn-servers/ <comment><AUTHOR> "Of the 913 unique IP addresses found in that dump, 677 were detected by Bad Packets CTI scans to be vulnerable to CVE-2019-11510 when the exploit was made public last year,"

Crazy stuff, what's going on with these enterprises.

<comment><USER2> If it is working, leave it alone. Standard operations at places that overwork and under fund their IT.</comment></comment>


Scheduling principles explained at pseudocode level - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/enyone/pseudo-scheduler <comment><USER2> Link to blog: [http://blog.enyone.rainio.org/Scheduling-principles- explaine...](http://blog.enyone.rainio.org/Scheduling-principles-explained-at- pseudocode-level)

Looks interesting and might make a better submission than the readme.</comment>


Show HN: Hot Music Nearby – Discover the most played tracks nearby (Android) - <AUTHOR> Requires a Spotify account and location sharing permission.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.freelapp.n... <comment><USER2> Interesting idea. Good luck!</comment>


Top three rules for VCs to live by when turning down entrepreneurs - the-slow-loris https://medium.com/trinity-ventures/the-best-breakup-ever-c76f45e37013

<comment><AUTHOR> it's all about integrity</comment>


Your Brain Treats a Blink Like a Tiny Nap - <AUTHOR> http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/06/blinking-sleep-eyes-closed-time-perception.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Science%20of%20Us%20-%20June%2020%2C%202017&utm_term=Subscription%20List%20-%20Science%20of%20Us%20%281%20Year%29 <comment><AUTHOR> This further enhances the fact that we must have a proper 7 to 8 hours sleep.

Also, to some extent why naps are refreshing.

Does it means that when we feel overwhelmed, just closing our eyes and sitting still for only couple of minutes would help?

<comment><USER2> Probably would help your eyes but I don't think sitting with your eyes closed for two hours would equal a two hour nap.

Have you ever spent your night not able to fall asleep, with your eyes closed? Were you refreshed in the morning, or exactly opposite?

I think the error in the study is to suggest that the time perception has to do with the brain sleeping. I think what happens is that our vision already does a lot of tricks on us hiding some details, hiding the delay that it takes to process visual stimuli, even creating details where there aren't any just for our benefit. The time dilation can be another trick that we just don't yet fully understand.</comment></comment>


India's oldest yogini: V Nanammal, 98 - happy-go-lucky https://qz.com/india/1010262/international-yoga-day-indias-oldest-yogini-says-youre-doing-yoga-wrong-if-youre-working-up-a-sweat/ <comment><AUTHOR> I don't go to yoga for authenticity. I enjoy the stretches and flexibility that comes from it. The endorphins are a nice side effect too. I can understand if some in India or even those around the world who practice traditional yoga or see it as a spiritual practice dislike western variants using the name yoga. Changing the name however wouldn't push me into traditional yoga. I'd still go to "Hot Core Power" class and enjoy it.

<comment><USER2> In India, do yoga, workup great sweat.

There are thousands of path reaching to the same goal - in some you workup sweat, in some not so. All good.

Go to office, raise family, give 100% = Karma Yoga.

<comment><USER3> I was in India once and spent the night in an ashram. One of the monks told me that yoga literally just means "practice" and that there were many different types of yoga including spiritual yoga and yoga for clearing out your nose etc. etc.

<comment><USER4> What we call "yoga" in the West is actually "asana" which is only a small part of the yoga path. It's preparation for higher practices like pranayama, mediation and sense withdrawal. On the spiritual path asana is really not very important.

<comment><USER5> >actually "asana" which is only a small part of the yoga path

"Small" only in the "Raja Yoga" path.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm not a yogi and I admit that my view of yoga as practiced in the west is skewed toward categorizing it more under "fashion and marketing" than "spirituality". But whenever I read something like this article and start delighting myself with the strange joy of seeing something I disagree with being ridiculed, some inner bell tolls the signal that I should know better and that something in the message is probably missing. I just have to look for it a bit longer.

What if all these new age yogis with their sweating ways turned out to be able to perform their 100 _surya namaskaras_ well past the age of 105, would it validate their form of yoga then? Do most people who practice the "traditional way" get to do it way past their 90s?

Every time I see someone pushing the "you're doing it wrong, here's the one true way" message, I have to remind myself that even Buddha insisted that he can only help to _guide_ you in _your own_ quest, but he can't be your master. There is certainly something to learn from _all_ of the ways that yoga is practiced, claiming that you know better simply turns you into a nearly full jar. I'd rather take some and leave some.

<comment><USER7> > What if all these new age yogis with their sweating ways turned out to be > able to perform their 100 surya namaskaras well past the age of 105, would > it validate their form of yoga then? Do most people who practice the > "traditional way" get to do it way past their 90s?

I don't think "validation" is the right language any more than "right" or "wrong". People do yoga for a reason - health, aesthetic, spiritual, whatever. The validation comes from whether they get out of it what they want. Someone hoping to discover the spiritual stuff the gurus write about may be better served by a practice that focuses on that instead of longevity. Just because someone's reached 100+ years old doesn't mean they've got out of it what they want (i.e. if they seek spiritual experiences but haven't had any they may still feel frustrated).

<comment><USER6> The questions I asked served to highlight the ridicule of the criteria used to claim that something is _wrong_ or _right_. So in essence, we agree.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Many comments were posted when the title was "You're doing yoga wrong if you're working up a sweat". We replaced that with the less baity (and more interesting) part of the article title.

</comment><comment><USER9> Or maybe you (and by you I mean me in 2015) are so out of shape that standing for a while is itself a workout.

</comment><comment><USER5> I see here people quoting "Patanjali Yoga Sutras" as a definitive text on everything Yoga. Not so; it is definitive only so far as "Raja Yoga" is concerned. In fact, it has got far more in common with Buddhist texts rather than Hatha Yoga (also Tantra) which is where you should look for insights on everything physical. To that end, the three main Hatha Yoga texts are;

1) The Gheranda Samhita

2) The Hatha Yoga Pradipika

3) The Siva Samhita

</comment><comment><USER10> I had a yoga teacher course myself. One of the lessons I took home is that there is no one right or original yoga. There are many kinds and most of them have their justification for existing. Hundreds of branches of yoga that have developed over time through series of different teachers. And why shouldn't new ones come along as well? Nothing wrong about goat yoga if it's healthy and enjoyable.

But I want to stress that yoga is not body building. It's not about bring beautiful, although that tends to be a side effect of health and happiness. The aim of yoga is to make you healthy, so healthy in fact that you can just forget about your body for a few days and meditate.

Yoga is also not just about asanas. It's about eight limbs (hatha), that include asanas, but also cleansing, right eating (vegetarian, and not too much), breathing exercises and a few other things. It's about doing what's good for your body so your mind can focus on what's important - meditation, doing right, ...

But what should be avoided is any harm. This is where for example hot yoga falls short - the heat is meant to increase flexibility, but it's also the most risky kind of yoga that sees frequent injuries. There's no reason to force your body to go beyond its current limits - rather you should slowly work to develop your flexibility, rather than force it with 'tricks'.

Do as you like, but don't try to do anything that is against your body. You only have one body. Make sure its healthy but don't try to do things you are not ready for or that might be harmful. E.g. an obvious one: crow pose is amazing but can for women put quite a bit of pressure on the ovaries so for any woman still planning to have kids it's not something to practice too intensely. Yes, do it, but don't force it and don't try to get to the point of pain.

Enjoy yoga - in all its forms.

<comment><USER5> You have a small Error;

>It's about eight limbs (hatha)

"Hatha" does not mean eight limbs. The correct phrase is "Ashta(eight) Anga(limbs)" in Sanskrit.

<comment><USER10> Thanks, you're probably right. It's been a while i brushed up on Sanskrit!

<comment><USER5> The two words are conjoined as "Ashtha + Anga = Ashtanga" and thus you have "Ashtanga Yoga" i.e. "Eight-limbed Yoga" of Patanjali.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> i've been to india twice to study yoga for months at a time, and i've done all kinds in the US. ok there are my creds.

yoga asana - the moving aspect - is only 1 of 8 branches of yoga and it has evolved significantly over time.

Even BKS Iyengar, the man who brought yoga to the West, changed his practice over time from a strong, powerful and probably sweaty style when he was younger to a slower style as he aged.

there isn't a "right way" to do yoga, but if you're looking for authenticity then follow a lineage that has ties to India. Iyengar yoga is probably the closest in the US and even those expert teachers will have different styles.

at any rate, find an instructor that gives detailed instructions. you shouldn't have to look at your neighbor to figure out what your body ought to be doing, and the point isn't for your hand to reach that one hard-to-reach place on day 1. that's why there are props because everyone's body is different.

<comment><USER5> As i point out in another post of mine, many people here are confusing "Hatha Yoga" with "Raja Yoga". The problem with BKS Iyengar/Krishnamachar/Pattabi Jois etc. schools is that they have mixed up both and sold it to the West and thus the resulting confusion.

Patanjali in his "Yoga Sutras"(main text for Raja Yoga) only says "posture should be steady and comfortable" (note asana = posture). Thats it. He also says nothing detailed about Pranayama. It is the internal mental aspects that are crucial in his system. Whether you do it sitting in a Chair, lying on a Bed is immaterial.

On the other hand, in Hatha Yoga the physical aspects are all important and are defined by Asana, Pranayama, Bandhas and Mudras. Here is where the forceful exercises come in. By a combination of body and breath, you try to induce certain sensations in your mind which is often defined as "Laya" i.e. "dissolution".

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I can't count the number of times I've had people tell me I'm doing $activity wrong, and learned long ago to completely ignore them because all that matters is that I enjoy doing the activity enough to not quit doing it daily as part of my routine.

For me, adhering to some kind of rigid protocol or model of perfection just ruins all the fun of it. I always strive towards making whatever it is feel good and fun, so I'm inspired to do it more, not less.

Doing anything physical every day is infinitely better than not doing it at all, even if done "imperfectly".

My $.02.

<comment><USER13> I think this applies to just about everything except dead lifts. You _really_ don't want to do those wrong.

<comment><USER14> Tell that to this guy [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R01rQSdsPs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R01rQSdsPs)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The title is misleading: there are many forms of yoga, and there are older people than her in India practicing them. She might be the oldest person teaching Hatha Yoga, now commonly called "yoga", focusing on asanas and maybe some pranayamas - that's mostly it. Hardly anyone is teaching the complete eight limbs because most people are interested only in asanas, and, more importantly, there are very few people who achieved mastery over all eight branches and are able to transmit their knowledge.

</comment><comment><USER16> I've studied yoga for 20 years. The style in the west was developed during the Raj, influenced by European physical exercise. Classic yoga takes Asana as mainly the precursor to loosen the body and correct the flow of prana (where minds meets body). Pranayama and meditation and are more central. Patanjali's defining text makes very little mention of asanas at all.

<comment><USER16> This year I started practicing Qi Gong. It emphasizes slow conscious movements and soft breathing. You are supposed to do this in yoga as well but it's very easy to make mistakes, even injuries.

Qi Gong has solved all of my lower back problems and the tensions in my shoulders and arms. You loosen and breath rather than pulling and stretching.

<comment><USER7> Qi Gong tends to put more emphasis on working with "environmental qi", drawing it in from the outside (Earth, nature, space, your imagination). It can be great for charging yourself up when combined with a practice like 5-point breathing. The kicker is that you can also do it while doing yoga asanas.

Yoga pranayama typically only works with prana in the body or uses mechanical breathing techniques (e.g. bhastrika, etc) to draw in prana as a by-product. But it'd be impractical (and probably dangerous) to do a practice like bhastrika while performing yoga asanas.

Doing Qi Gong practices while practicing yoga can really supercharge them. On the inhalation draw energy in from deep in the Earth through your feet to your lower dan tien/navel, and on the exhalation send it out your hands wherever they're pointing (probably the sky or Earth). Then on the next round inhale from where your hands are pointing, taking the qi/prana to the lower dan tien and then exhale out the feet or crown. Keep repeating this, always inhaling in through the 'gate' you just exhaled from. Do this for 5-10 minutes at first and build up. It'll really charge you up. You should learn the Macrocosmic Orbit first, but hopefully you already know that if you've been learning Qi Gong. If not, check out Mantak Chia's Awaken Healing Energy through the Tao.

<comment><USER5> I am sorry to say this but your post is bunkum. You seem to have been studying some wrong books and listening to possible charlatans. Mantak chia, Yang jwing-ming and their ilk are not authentic. They are making a living by hustling on what little they know about Chinese/Asian arts to a clueless West. There is a lot of nonsense out there on Yoga, Tantra, Qigong etc. and hence one needs to be careful on where one gets their knowledge from.

I highly suggest that you look for some authentic sources (see my other posts in this thread) in subjects that interest you and base your studies on them instead.

<comment><USER7> What, specifically is "bunkum" here? What's your definition of an "authentic source"? This is just more FUD, easily dispelled. Just try doing 5-point breathing while doing yoga and see for yourself.

<comment><USER5> >Just try doing 5-point breathing while doing yoga

Why should i try this when i can do 12-point Neigong-Daoyin-Waigong-Shaolin- Micro-Macro with a side of Yoga-Tantra-Chakra-Channels and a topping of Reiki? :-)

...jk...

I am just trying to help out people who are interested in esoteric subjects of which i have some knowledge by steering them away from BS and charlatans.

I will provide a more serious answer in my response to your other post so that everything is in one place.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There are different schools of yog though. There is no single traditional Indian school. There are variants, that do infact promote high energy movements. Having said that, their observation is strict and mixing and matching them in single session is a no-no

</comment><comment><USER18> She also says you're doing yoga wrong if you're practicing any time other than between 3 AM and 5 AM in the morning. She's part of a strict school that focuses on pranayama, breath-work, a major part of yoga in India but rarely mentioned in the West. I recommend the Wim Hof method if anybody's interested, it's similar to the Indian and Tibetan practices.

<comment><USER19> Spot on! This is called Brahmamuhurtha in Hinduism, when I explain to my english friends there are 4 types of Yoga they give me blank faces. I try and explain that if you believe in the science of the physical yoga that you do, invented by Hindu sages, then they clearly knew something and were onto something, try the others. But unfortunately I find most people will only follow something if its commercialised and mainstream.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> What are some good beginners resources on pranayama? Wondering if it can help my sleep apnea.

</comment><comment><USER21> Well, I guess I'm doing something other than yoga. Works for me though.

</comment><comment><USER22> ahh she belongs to my place... very famous...

True inspiration

</comment><comment><USER23> This just in, person who is 100 years old thinks the old ways of doing things are better

<comment><USER8> Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.</comment></comment>


Could be the best coworking space ever - Former Cement Factory - <AUTHOR> http://www.yatzer.com/A-former-Cement-Factory-is-now-the-workspace-and-residence-of-Ricardo-Bofill <comment><USER2> I was a bit disappointed by how nicely it was furnished. It seems to me like some of the magic was lost. Still, it looks like it would be really cool to work in. Give me a little hidey hole in that big room, and I'm set.</comment>


Ask HN: Why do Americans/Europeans not use "bum gun" or water to wash? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> There was an old article reposted to HN recently [http://mentalfloss.com/article/23210/toilet-paper-history- ho...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/23210/toilet-paper-history-how-america- convinced-world-wipe)

<comment><USER3> This article kicked up a fake virus scare popup on my Android phone. Beware when clicking on this link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Lots of Europeans use a bidet. It seems to be mainly the Anglophone countries (US, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand) that find using water to wash the nether regions as something strange.

</comment><comment><USER5> Not sure how they can feel clean with those tissue papers</comment>


The Health Data Conundrum - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/opinion/the-health-data-conundrum.html <comment><USER2> > A recent theft involving Anthem is a perfect illustration. Tens of millions > of patient records were compromised, all were stored in a centralized > database, none were encrypted, and no one has been caught.

This is such BS on Anthem's part. Our company works with Blue Cross payers (insurance) and 1) we are required to remain HIPAA compliant and 2) our clients almost always include provisions on additional encryption, monitoring, logging, security, etc.

As a smaller startup with far fewer resources than these large companies, it's really insulting when they can do something as simple as provide data encryption and no store plain-text passwords.</comment>


Intelligence Is Overrated: success has nothing to do with how smart you are - <AUTHOR> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/intelligence-is-overrated--what-you-really-need-to-succeed.html <comment><USER2> The actual title of the article is: "Intelligence Is Overrated: What You Really Need to Succeed".</comment>