Show HN: NSMTP Monolith – Full-stack email-compatible communication - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Zombition/nsmtp-monolith <comment><AUTHOR> Hello world! I've been reading HN frequently for the past few years, and a recurring theme I noticed was frustration regarding email (intriguingly, it's only the people on HN who seem to dislike email; everyone else seems to universally adore it). So at the start of this year I decided to fix email by creating a new protocol that overcomes some of email's shortcomings while remaining backwards-compatible with email. Anything short of a new protocol struck me as lipstick on a pig, and anything that failed to maintain compatibility with email struck me as Google Wave.

This repository contains a full-stack implementation of the new protocol, so you can clone the repository, start up a vagrant machine and immediately connect via your web browser to try it out (though if you actually want to use it for sending and receiving emails, you won't get far by running it on a network with port 22 blocked). At the moment I don't have instructions for setting it up outside of Vagrant, but I'm also not sure how many people would actually be interested in running it themselves in a production environment. It's still quite rough around the edges, so it's not quite production-ready anyway, but most of the roughness is in the UI and edge cases in protocol handling which I've worked out logically but haven't yet implemented.

Protocol ambitions aside, I wanted to learn a lot from this experience-- previously I had done some PHP and WordPress development, and I just wanted to try using Node and React to mash a Trello-like app together with email somehow, and things started happening so fast... Mainly I wanted to see how far I could go with one of my "crazy" ideas, because up until now I had always assumed that there would have to be something besides running out of time and money that would fundamentally stop me. Among the many things I learned, I discovered that it really does just boil down to the time and money! :) So now I'm looking for work.

That said, I _am_ planning to continue development on this for my personal use (and possible work use later), so I'm open to suggestions, feedback, pull requests.... I know an open demo would be the bees knees. I'm planning to make such a demo in the near future, but for announcing this I did not want to. If you're interested in trying it out in a live environment rather than in Vagrant, I'm running this stack on zombition.com, and you can contact me at "tom" at the aforementioned domain for an invitation. Assuming nothing blows up :)

</comment><comment><USER2> Very interesting! What kind of use cases are you envisioning that this opens up?

I'd love to see a screencast or some screenshots.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you! I'm envisioning a future where email is a web application framework, so that the internet as a network of machines becomes a background detail, and application development happens at a higher level--on a protocol for a network of people. For example, if you're a developer and you want to be able to do something in your email conversations that you can't already do, you could write a plugin that performs that task (assuming you couldn't find a pre-existing plugin that did what you want), and then you could use it with everyone that you can communicate with via email because it would be directly integrated into your conversations. No server-side coding would be necessary, and you wouldn't have to bother with getting people to use your application because it would already be in a convenient place for them.

Coming back to your question: I see the potential use cases for this as _primarily_ a superset of the current use cases for email. For bulk mailing and automated notifications, SMTP remains superior by nature of its simplicity (mostly... though this application edits self-generated notification messages to append notifications when there are multiple in a short time period). Email clients for personal use tend to have an immense number of bells and whistles, but if you assume that those will inevitably creep into this application as well over time, it should eventually be wholly practical for personal email.

Business emailing needs can be significantly more specialized, but they're also more likely to want advanced capabilities from their communication software. Assuming that some additional plugins offering desirable features are created, this could be very useful in a business setting.

I've added some gifs to the README that show editing, adding an inline reply, and adding a plugin. I know the flow to add a plugin is pretty gnarly at this point. I'm planning to pull them more directly into message content in the near future, because I tend to forget they're there when I have to click a button to even see that area. :)</comment></comment>


Ely's new cathedral (of books) opens for business - <AUTHOR> https://www.cam.ac.uk/ElyStore <comment><AUTHOR> Excerpt:

"The £17m Library Storage Facility, which will be officially opened today (June 27) by Councillor Mike Rouse, the Mayor of Ely, as well as Cambridge University Librarian Dr Jessica Gardner, has been built to provide a perfect, climate-controlled environment across _65 miles of shelving_ (the distance between Cambridge and the Houses of Parliament) for its least-requested books – those deemed 'low-use'.

Each row of shelving reaches a height of 11.5 metres, around the height of two adult giraffes.

The first book placed into the store was Douglas Adams' The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: the nearly definitive edition, introduced by Richard Dawkins and Nick Harkaway (London, Heinemann, 2014)."

</comment><comment><USER2> "low use" book storage — aka, my living room :(</comment>


Facebook Cuts Off MessageMe's Access To Its Social Graph - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/15/facebook-messageme/

<comment><USER2> This is why you should never build a startup/app based on someone else's API especially when that someone else doesn't take money from you. Seriously, who would want to run a business that is completely dependent on someone else's choices?

<comment><USER3> I've often pondered whether there exists an alternate universe where Facebook could provide a social platform at a cost much like how Amazon provides a computing platform for money.

If you want to build a social app, especially one that works tightly with facebook, you're going to end up building basically your own social network that synchronizes with facebook at various points in time (for comments and whatnot) and also performs feed fanout/distribution. If you anticipate hitting scale, this can be tricky to engineer properly. Facebook clearly has the framework developed for doing all of these things but since their API lacks a real strategic purpose (other than to trick companies into a hostile dependency with Facebook), it is under-designed and frustrating to use.

If Facebook were to offer a service where they would charge some amount of money for an app to get an app-specific feed of friends, feed of yourself, list of friends using an app, hosting/indexing of open graph objects (read: just the metadata), and notifications on any activity related to your app, I would bet companies would pay. You can do all of this today, but it's a hodgepodge of FQL, periodical scraping, your own distribution, and gross overreaches in privacy.

In other words, if they actually ran the Graph API like a business and not some poorly disguised attempt at being "Open", Facebook could a) add another revenue stream, b) increase usage/engagement on their own platform, and c) save a lot of developers' time.

<comment><USER4> It can't be done since it would bring the narrative of "Facebook is selling user's data" too close to reality. With the addition of occasional leaks of who is buying into their platform, it would provide media with a constant stream of savoury headlines such as "Facebook is selling your personal information to the CIA" and "Facebook is selling your your personal information to Iran".

<comment><USER3> I actually think that this could be a privacy _saving_ measure instead of a privacy leaking one, because if it was packaged as an app hosting service it could be sandboxed much more straightforwardly. For example, today, if you want to monitor FB comments on a user's open graph action, you have to request notifications for every time a user's entire wall changes and then scrape their entire wall to find out what changed.

Do I care about all the other crap that happens on a user's wall? Nope. Can I ask for updates only on my apps activity? Nope. Thus you're stuck asking for much more access than you actually want/need simply since the privacy is poorly designed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm surprised facebook hasn't decided to go all the way and have a person audit every single app that tries to access FB data.

<comment><USER6> It would be kind of hard to call it an "Open Graph" if it were that closed.

<comment><USER7> No, it would require absolutely no effort to call it an "Open Graph" if it were that closed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Hash tags done, blocking dev access to API done... is it just me or is FB trying to be next Twitter?

</comment><comment><USER9> Is this be a dick week? I guess they figured nobody would notice after Google's dick-moves.

</comment><comment><USER10> It's pretty ironic that they would pull this right after this BuzzFeed article on developers' problems with the platform: [http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/this-is-facebooks- midlife-...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/this-is-facebooks-midlife- crisis).</comment>


Cognitect: Relevance merges with Metadata Partners (Datomic) - <AUTHOR> http://cognitect.com/ <comment><USER2> More context in their podcast: ([http://cognitect.com/podcast](http://cognitect.com/podcast))

</comment><comment><USER3> Any plans to opensource Datomic?

<comment><USER4> What is the big deal about Datomic?

From their FAQ:

"Datomic is not a good fit if you need unlimited write scalability, or have data with a high update churn rate (e.g. counters)."

Don't you get most of that through... caching? Also, it seems to assume that the dataset will fit into RAM.

<comment><USER5> In short, you can ask a datomic database stuff like "Show me all things that are different for customer X from the database today versus the database one year ago on September 14th at 9:32 AM" and it can answer those types of queries with high performance.

And no, the dataset does not need to fit in RAM.

<comment><USER2> You can also go forward in time, to a hypothetical future. (That is, you add data and get back a new DB value, which you can query against. But the DB's source isn't modified.) Can be useful in analytics which deal with what-if scenarios.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> ((defn cognitect ([] (conj [relevance] datomic)))) ; => all ur cljr r belong to us

</comment><comment><USER7> I miss a piece of info here, could someone please fill in? Rich Hickey is known for Clojure, Metadata Partners for Datomic. What are the Relevance guys known for?

(Honest question, not a cheap attempt at dismissal :-) )

<comment><USER8> Quite a few members of the Clojure core team and community work there, as evidenced by the intersection of [http://thinkrelevance.com/team](http://thinkrelevance.com/team) and [http://clojure.com/about.html](http://clojure.com/about.html).

<comment><USER9> In addition, Relevance has had a close relationship with Rich for years, as such we've had a major hand in the development of Clojure, ClojureScript, Datomic, core.async, Pedestal, Simulant, and many other Clojure projects.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I attended a tech conference earlier this year where Rich Hickey was speaking. He was trumpeting the fact that data never really gets deleted in Datomic, and someone brought up the question: What happens if you are legally required to delete something from your database? I seem to remember him saying that Datomic wasn't really designed for that scenario, which sounds like a major problem.

<comment><USER11> That actually isn't the case, you can delete data in datomic. [http://docs.datomic.com/excision.html](http://docs.datomic.com/excision.html)</comment></comment>


Unexpected Hanging Paradox - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpected_hanging_paradox <comment><USER2> I studied philosophy for several years and love paradoxes. So much time is wasted debating stuff like this though which is just people arguing about ambiguity and is a great example of philosophical naval gazing.

<comment><USER3> I fantasise about sending a philosophy buff back in time to ancient Rome and setting them loose in the Greek schools. Those Roman senators will have their children return to them with ideas so advanced and so convoluted that they might as well be speaking another language</comment></comment>


CarWoo Team Just Boarded An RV To Tour Zappos HQ - <AUTHOR> http://blog.carwoo.com/oh-snap-the-carwoo-team-just-boarded-an-rv-to

<comment><USER2> Unsolicited feedback: "we know the best dealers and the ones to avoid altogether" from your "About" copy rubbed me the wrong way (I'm actually about to go buy a car this week is why I paid attention). If I'm not the one talking to the dealers, then I'd rather think _all_ the dealers in my area are bidding, not just the "carWOO"-approved ones.

<comment><USER3> CarWoo doesn't serve my area (I checked recently, since I just bought a new vehicle), but I definitely view dealership filtering as a positive. I don't want to do business with somebody who consistently ranks poorly in satisfaction surveys.

That said, I'd appreciate if there was some copy, somewhere in a FAQ, explaining what they mean by that.

<comment><USER2> Yeah, I don't know. You could convince me. But I didn't bring it up because I want my CarWoo experience to be better (I am weird in that I enjoy the actual process of buying cars, and so am I a poor candidate). I brought it up because you don't usually _get_ a chance to convince people, just their first visit to the page, and this copy (not the idea, the copy) rubbed me the wrong way.

I'm just a data point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This type of car-buying service is really convenient. When I bought my car a few years ago I used a service called CarBargains and ended up saving around $4k. IIRC CarBargains cost $200 vs CarWoo's $39.

</comment><comment><USER5> Also, we're hiring interns for the summer (for engineering, design, and marketing positions). Let me know if you're interested.

<comment><USER6> where are you located?

<comment><USER5> Burlingame, CA (Bay Area)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Our CEO will be on the radio in Pittsburgh tomorrow.

</comment><comment><USER8> Funny, I'm on my way to Vegas in my RV right now. I don't have a big Virtualmin banner on mine, though...but maybe I should.

<comment><AUTHOR> Give us a ring if you wanna meetup! Fellow HN'ers always welcome.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Get to work.

<comment><AUTHOR> First code push already from the RV!

[http://blog.carwoo.com/first-code-push-from-the-road- build-a...](http://blog.carwoo.com/first-code-push-from-the-road-build- already-b)

<comment><USER10> 'Way to not run the tests Erik.'

Nice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Is it just me or does the "woo" in their logo look strikingly similar to Woot.com's?

<comment><USER2> It's just you. It's not the same typeface at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Awesome stunt, this is even better than the donut operation!

<comment><AUTHOR> Woa how'd you know about that?

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> > But we might be drunk. Come on - we dare you. We are the Zappos of car > buying.

Declaring something to be true doesn't make it so. If you are awesome you shouldn't have to tell us. Unless people are saying "How are those guys so awesome?". Then you can tell us.

Also this makes it look like Zappos employs a bunch of drunk kids in RVs who make impulsive road trips.

And I'm not sure how I feel about piggybacking on someone else's brand. What if these guys suck, how does that fare for Zappos? Also if the Zappos brand goes through drastic changes what does that mean for CarWoo?

<comment><AUTHOR> You bring up some valid points - we definitely don't have it all figured out and this will be an interesting experiment.

Feel free to give us a call and chat: 877-417-4966. We are good at accepting feedback!</comment></comment>


What I saw on 9/11. This is not a joke - <AUTHOR>

On the morning of 9/11 I was heading to work at an office on 11th avenue in West Chelsea.  I exited the 23rd ST C train station at about 9:00 AM. I immediately heard the incredibly loud sound of a jet plane directly overhead. This was not the sound of a jet plane passing overhead at cruising altitude. This was the sound you hear when driving  into an airport terminal with planes taking off and landing right above your car. I turned and saw a twin-engine jet plane flying south over 8th avenue. It was so low that it was practically buzzing the two-story buildings on the east side of the block. The plane appeared to be descending slowly and smoothly. The first thought that went trough my mind was that it was going to land in the middle of the street. My next thought was "what the hell kind of plane is this?"It was roughly the same size and shape as a 747 but there were no windows along the fuselage. It was painted flat gray like a battle ship. There were no logos, no stripe across the fuselage, no writing, no bright splash of color on the tail. Just flat gray. The only discernible marking was a light blue "bulls eye" nose on the nose of the cockpit. When the plane flew beyond my field of vision  I wanted to stick around  but I was late for a staff meeting. I boarded the M23 bus hoping that it might be a few minutes faster than walking. A few minutes later I heard a smashing sound so loud that it nearly burst my ear drums. My brain knew it was the plane but my heart wanted to believe otherwise. I knew my worst fears were confirmed when I heard the bus driver's CB radio. The dispatcher was instructing the drivers to suspend service after dropping off their passengers. The voice on the CB tried to assure the drivers who were downtown. "we'll get you out of there as soon as possible!" As I exited the bus at the last stop the Driver said "Folks be careful, they just bombed the World Trade Center!" Here's my question, did you see what I saw? Can you explain what I saw? <comment><USER2> This post was killed by user flags.

</comment><comment><USER3> Something doesn't make sense. You saw this plane flying low and then "a few minutes later" you heard the impact? So the plane was circling around Manhattan a few hundred feet above the ground for minutes?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> @dang that's unfortunate. This was the one place that I thought a group of intelligent and objective people might have a dialog about this. I guess it's easier to believe the official version of events.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Please forgive the lack of formatting. I had to cut this down to 2000 characters. Feel free to ask me questions of you want to know more details about my experience. Again, this is not a joke. I have been living with this for 13 years. I need to get this off my chest and I want some answers.

@refurb I don't know what the plane did after it flew beyond my field of vision; I couldn't see it. What I know is that I was on 23rd and 8th when I saw the plane. I walked to 23rd and 9th where I got on the M23. I heard the crash almost immediately after boarding the bus.

</comment><comment><USER4> nothing new here ur government killed ur own people to find a reason to invade middle east for there own vested interests!</comment>


Startups Like Berlin Because Visa Rules Are Nothing Like the U.S. - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-30/startups-like-berlin-because-visa-rules-are-nothing-like-the-u-s-.html?cmpid=mashable <comment><USER3> I successfully applied for a work visa here in Berlin, and I was blown away by how quick the process was, especially in contrast to the stories I hear about the same process in the US. From submitting all the paperwork to getting word that my application was approved, it took a grand total of _7 days_. I was expecting to wait at least a few weeks, but it seems that the new Blue Card legislation has really streamlined things.

For anyone considering working in Germany, I would definitely recommend looking into the Blue Card, which offers some advantages over the normal work permit:

\- It's initially valid for 4 years. For limited contracts, it's valid for the length of the contract plus 3 months.

\- After 36 months with a Blue Card, you can apply for permanent residency (as opposed to 5 years with the normal work permit). This is lowered to only 21 months if you can prove B1-level German proficiency.

\- You can leave the EU for up to 12 months without losing your visa status (versus 6 months with the normal work permit).

\- After 18 months, you're free to live and work in any other EU country.

Further details: [http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card- germany/](http://www.bluecard-eu.de/eu-blue-card-germany/)

<comment><USER4> So what's the catch? What's worse about the Blue Card / why would you ever get the work permit?

<comment><USER5> The Blue Card requires that you have a job contract or very concrete job offer with a minimum salary, and will more or less be tied to that job: If you lose your job, they apparently can give you some time to find a new one, but you may get kicked out if you fail in that endeavor. Also, if you want to change jobs away from the one that originally got you the Blue Card, you'll have to get formal approval. (Edit: this would probably apply to a regular work permit, as well. I'm German, so I never had this problem. Still, you can apparently even apply to get a work permit as a freelancer, which would then make life much easier for you if you don't want to tie yourself to a Blue Card job for that long.)

Other than that, there seems to be no catch - the Blue Card is meant to attract highly skilled workers, so once that hurdle is cleared (>> minimum salary, university education, easier for certain high-in-demand sectors), the EU countries seem pretty happy to have Blue Card holders stay - as they should be.

<comment><USER3> Yep, the permit is tied to a specific job for the first two years[1]. From what I understand, it's pretty easy to get approval for a different job, as long as the job description is similar. Interestingly, my residence permit also says "selbständig Tätigkeit gestattet" (self-employment permitted), so it seems I could freelance here without needing a different visa.

[1] [http://www.berlin.de/labo/auslaender/dienstleistungen/index....](http://www.berlin.de/labo/auslaender/dienstleistungen/index.php/dienstleistung/324659/en/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> German labor law has some features that might interact in interesting ways with startups.

Germany lacks employment-at-will; it appears that disputed terminations can easily become lawsuits there (but German law also seems to have orderly mechanisms for resolving these disputes, which boil down to mandatory severance).

German law has what appears to be a strict policy on hours worked per week and per day, and on working over weekends.

German law has statutory maternity leave (which I think is unproblematic) but also a statutory 3-year(!) parental leave, during which time employees aren't paid but are entitled to their job on return. Are startups exempt from this?

<comment><USER7> On the at-will thing, in addition to it being easier if the company has demonstrable financial problems as someone else mentioned, one thing that makes it less of an issue is that usually when you start at a company in Germany you're given a fixed-term contract. It's only after your third contract (i.e. usually after two years) that you're required to get a permanent contract. In most cases if there's a real clash it's going to be sussed out in the first two years of employment, and during the first six months employees can be fired with no notice.

The working hours thing, for better or worse, is broadly ignored in software companies. That said, hours aren't as extreme as in many American companies.

For the parental leave, that only applies for companies with more than 15 employees, so the startups that it would affect are going to be more established. And while taking a year off is common, it's very rare for more to be taken with intent to return to the job.

<comment><USER8> > The working hours thing, for better or worse, is broadly ignored in software > companies.

However, Germans at least take the idea of vacation time seriously

<comment><USER9> I'd argue that it's the other way around: Americans don't take vacation time very seriously.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As someone who is a non-US citizen going through the tortuous process of acquiring permanent residency in the US (estimated time: 8-10 years), I will advise any international people looking for their first job -- if you can get one in Berlin, Canada, or elsewhere, take it.

The US immigration system is fraught with bureaucracy, and is structured such that employers have strong incentives to delay your application for permanent residency for as long as possible. This, combined with per-country caps on green cards, makes for a process where you spend a decade or more in a country as an "alien" when you are working there and paying large amounts of taxes towards a Social Security system etc. that you have no chance of using in your present state.

(To be fair, there is a fair bit of reform in this system that has been _proposed_ by Congress, but with the current state it is in, it could be years before those bills are passed and made into laws.)

<comment><USER11> this ^^^

I worked in canada for a year and was offered to stay, my permanent residency would have been granted after 6 months and citizenship in 2 years.

After 5 years in the US, I'm on this situation, even after obtained a Software Engineering master degree in the US from CMU, my application is being dragged.

<comment><USER12> That's why there's no rational reason experienced developer who have a wife and kids will choose USA over Germany. In USA he would first need to wait at least one year until his family can arrive, then wait for 5 or more years to get permanent residency (Green Card) in which period his wife will not have permission to work, and he would be unable to plan his future in any significant way because he would live on the edge of deportation if his current employer decide he doesn't work (good/hard/long) enough. That's at least six years of limbo in someones' life. It might be ok for singles with no kids, but noone else.

Compare that to Germany where it takes at most 3 months to be completely settled with the family where wife also gets work permit, and children can start getting child benefits and going to state subsided kindergartens from the get go.

I would start thinking about moving to US if and only if I would get Green Card from the start, but even then I'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care.

<comment><USER13> _I 'm not sure I would change EU(ropean) way of life for 50+ work weeks, one week of vacation and no payed sick or parental leave, super expensive education and no universal health care._

No paid sick leave? One week of vacation? Super expensive education (for kindergarten???)?

Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for gives it. I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

Working 50+ hours is really a personal choice (as long as you work for an ethical employer) since it isn't legal to require someone to work more than 40 hours/week.

I'm not sure about super expensive education. Out of state tuition is typically expensive if you want to go to a top university, but the average community college is downright cheap.

<comment><USER14> | Where in the US are you talking about? While we don't tend to have laws mandating sick leave, nearly every company that you'd immigrate for gives it. I've never worked anywhere that didn't offer at least two weeks of vacation.

No offense, but your proof here is purely anecdotal. I've worked for employers who offer less than two weeks. My first STEM job offered 5 days your first year, with 5 more each additional year, capping at 20. 2 weeks may be thought of as the norm, but since there is no actual law about it, its only a suggestion.

|Working 50+ hours is really a personal choice (as long as you work for an ethical employer) since it isn't legal to require someone to work more than 40 hours/week.

This is only true if you are hourly, and dont fall under a salaried exception. Its also only true if your employer is ethical, as you say. Since the US is largely at-will, you can be fired for most any reason. They aren't even required to tell you why. So, if you turn down your unethical boss insistence on a 50 hour week at a 40 hour weeks pay, you can be on the street in an hour. You can try to fight it, but the laws in the US are stacked in the employers favor.

|I'm not sure about super expensive education. Out of state tuition is typically expensive if you want to go to a good university, but the average community college is downright cheap.

This is generally true. JC are comparably cheap, but contrast this against someplace in the EU that has "high" tuition. A 4 year degree from a good school in England will set you back about 30k. Here, an equivalently prestigious degree can cost you 150k, easy. While you may learn the same at a 2 year JC, which will still cost you 15k by the by,you lack the prestige that a University degree gets you. Sadly, thats what gets you in the door. So, to be equally prestigious, you need to have 150k in debt in the US, and only 30K in debt in the UK. Thats not the same at all.

<comment><USER13> _No offense, but your proof here is purely anecdotal. I 've worked for employers who offer less than two weeks. My first STEM job offered 5 days your first year, with 5 more each additional year, capping at 20. 2 weeks may be thought of as the norm, but since there is no actual law about it, its only a suggestion._

For professional jobs in the US, the average paid vacation after the first year of service is 10 days (2 weeks)[1]. Sadly they don't have statistics for 0-1 years so I don't know if your package was atypical.

That said, we certainly don't match our European counterparts, but then again, we don't even use most of the vacation time we are given every year[2]. The US simply doesn't have a culture of taking vacations like Europe.

[1] [http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm)

[2] [http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/18/news/economy/unused_vacation...](http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/18/news/economy/unused_vacation_days/index.htm)

<comment><USER15> I've often wondered about this. Given how many Americans move cross-country for work, does that mean large numbers spend only a day or two a year with their immediate families?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is controversial but it is my personal experience: As a non-white, living in Germany is hard; the level of bigotry and racism in my opinion makes the nuisance of the US visa system negligible. Most tech immigrants are non-whites so I think a debate over immigration should take into account the quality of life for the techies and their family. Sure the US still have a lot to do to improve its visa system, but the American way of life and its people, makes the US the most attractive place to go for non-whites techies.

<comment><USER17> I honestly find that surprising. Germany is the place in Europe where there is the most white guilt. I stayed there for a few months and experienced zero problems.

<comment><USER18> You probably didn't go to East Germany then?

I have a lot of (brown) Asian family relatives who've spent decades in Germany, they tell me America is basically a heaven in comparison. Canada is pretty much the only country that comes close to America (according to them -- and my experiences ring true here as well), in not being racist to non-white individuals.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Visas deter US-based startups from hiring foreign talent, but on the flip side, US taxation laws deter US-based talent from leaving the country.

I would love the idea of working for a startup in Berlin, but to make financially comparable, I'd have to be paid about 30% more[0] just to offset the cost of paying double taxes (both to the US, and to Germany). I'm ignoring factors like COLA, other expenses, etc., but for a US citizen this is a major deterrent to living abroad, even temporarily.

I guess a cynic would say that this is just the system "working as intended", though that just raises the question of _whose_ intentions it's working for.

I would _love_ to live in a foreign country for a few years in my 20s (the easiest time to do it), and assuming I eventually move back, the US will already get a cut of any foreign income I made via sales tax (when I spend it), capital gains (when I invest it), and (eventually) the estate tax.

[0] Edit: Apparently this figure is off - see discussion below. The tax/financial implications still do appear to be a hurdle, it's just (unsurprisingly) even more complicated than I realized.

<comment><USER20> If you are a U.S. citizen working in Berlin and paying German income tax, you will not be double-taxed on the income. The USA will give you credit for the tax paid in Germany. See Form 1116. Others have mentioned the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. See Form 2555.

You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so ridiculous. The operating principle in U.S. tax law is "If you are doing something abroad, you must be Mafia ^H^H^H^H^H a drug lord ^H^H^H^H^H a thieving bastard tax cheat ^H^H^H^H^H^H terrorist." (The Poster Child of Evil has changed over the years, but the pig-headedness has remained constant).

Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer.

<comment><USER19> > Disclaimer: I am an international tax lawyer.

Alright, I'll take your word for it then.

> You will, however, pay two metric shit-tonnes in professional fees getting > your U.S. tax returns prepared because the international tax rules are so > ridiculous

So, instead of getting shafted by paying Uncle Sam, I'll get shafted by paying a tax attorney. :)

Either way, there is a financial disincentive to working abroad, and that's not taking into account the fact that this is a disincentive to _look_ for jobs abroad (speaking for myself, I'd want to figure out the financial implications before seeking employment abroad, and this creates yet one more hurdle).

<comment><USER20> There is an extreme financial disincentive for Americans to work abroad. If you travel frequently to Dubai (as an example) as I do, it will astonish* you to discover very few Americans working there, but tons of British, Australian, South African, etc. people busily making a living, building a business, etc.

The reason is taxation. Americans working in Dubai (no income tax there) must still pay U.S. income tax and pay a ton to get the tax returns done correctly. A British citizen working in Dubai pays nothing to Inland Revenue and does not file a U.K. income tax return.

Question: who is cheaper to hire, if you are an employer in Dubai?

Hint: that's why all of the international bankers are NOT American.

\</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment>-

* Sarcasm.

EDIT: this is one reason why our law firm has a booming business in expatriation -- people giving up U.S. citizenship/green cards.

<comment><USER21> This effect is biggest in low tax countries because of the credit US citizens end up paying the HIGHER of US and local income taxes (more or less - <USER2> are complex).

Also see relatively few Americans in Hong Kong and Singapore which have low tax rates like Dubai. Unlike almost everyone else in the world there is no benefit for Americans to work in low tax countries because they still end up paying US tax rates. If a company hires an Austrailian and an American in Hong Kong the American ends up with less after tax income. So the draw to these places is much less for US citizens.

<comment><USER22> There is still a benefit, because you pay only federal income taxes, but not state taxes and you do not pay various other taxes such as medicare surcharge on investment income. So if you are from a high tax state in the U.S. ( California or NY ), it may still make sense.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is a weak article. The headline exaggerates the content of the article as is often the case. Based on anecdotal opinions of two Berlin techies who probably have an incentive to promote Berlin's tech scene. The conclusion is that the German visa process is still intolerable. Yet somehow the application process is better is some ways. Some details of the process would be nice as well numbers of visas granted and time frames would be very helpful.

There are currently several big PR effort around US immigration reform[1]. Could this article just be part of that effort directed at Silicon Valley? Am I being paranoid?

Edit: I'm for easier immigration and work visas but would like a more transparent and fact based discussion.

[1] [http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for- imm...](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/10/24/republicans-for-immigration- reform-boost-effort-in-house/)

<comment><USER18> The submitter of this article, pg, is in fact a major contributor to the FWD.us intiative [1]. But it's probably better to assume there's a good faith basis in the submission of this article, since we've no reason to believe otherwise. You're very right that Berlin in recent years has been aggressively pushing itself as the next Valley (and I guess to some extent it is succeeding -- you're seeing a few big players emerge from there, Soundcloud being one that everyone knows about).

The reason why it'll never be the next full-on Valley though, in my opinion (as another poster has already mentioned) is the racism there. As a brown guy who's been to a lot of places, let me tell you that there is racism basically everywhere but in America (and Canada). It is of a particularly sharp type in Berlin (and the rest of East Germany). It really puts a burden on you mentally when you have to make everyday life decisions (should I take the train at this time? alone? at $X place?) in efforts of just escaping harassment. For as much as I rail on America for the eroding civil liberties and all, I can not imagine leaving this place for any other.

[1]: [http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters](http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> One day I will write about the tragi-comedy that was my route to being able to start and run a startup as an immigrant.

Meanwhile, I want to highlight two things:

(1) My wife, who has a graduate degree from one of the best schools in the U.S. and has been living in the U.S. for a decade, is currently stuck in Canada indefinitely because on her 3rd visa stamping they decided that she may be a security risk and they need to investigate her _because she took an information security class in grad school 8 years ago_.

I am not exaggerating when I say indefinitely. They will literally not provide an expected timeline by which she will get an answer. She has met at least 3 individuals who have been stuck in this kind of limbo for over a year.

The cherry on the cake: this is the 2nd time this is happening to her. The first time, after 2 months, they decided she was o.k.

If you are going to use basic keyword filtering on an applicant's resume to flag them, at the very least you should learn from the false positives!

(2) For all the bad press that the H1B program gets, at least 50% of the people I know who got an H1B after going to grad school in the U.S. have actively tried to start a startup. Most gave up on it because of the high risk of being kicked out in the U.S. since there is no startup visa.

Would you start a startup if every time you left the country you risked not being let back in indefinitely? Most of my rational friends think I am crazy for taking that kind of risk.

Think about it - even anti-H1B advocates who think these H1Bs are stealing their jobs should be happy to let these guys get a visa to start a company so that they are not "stealing jobs"!

</comment><comment><USER24> Having built the first version of LayerVault in Berlin, it was remarkable to see how many expats were building companies there. It's also much more affordable than your more traditional hubs.

I can't recommend Berlin enough, especially for building an MVP.

<comment><USER25> You can also build it in, like, your home town.

I don't get this obsession with moving to a startup hub before there's even most remote proof of your startup's viability. To me, it always raises the suspicion that one's less interested in actually building the business and more interested in living inside the movie The Social Network.

<comment><USER26> I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :)

<comment><USER27> >I think is the same phenomenon that happen to a lot wannabe-writers or painters; they would move to Paris or New York, just to feel they were real Van Goghs or Proust's :)

It's nice to be around people who value the things you value. It's nice to have friends you can talk to who understand what you are going through. I know for me, it's nice to be around people who are impressed when I do things that I feel are impressive, and it's nice to be around people who are better than I am.

I mean, yeah, there is a tech scene in davis and in sacramento... but it is a much 'smaller pond' \- it really is pretty cool to be able to rub shoulders with the leading voices of your industry, and that's way easier to do here.

In a very real sense, you /can/ come rub shoulders with Van Gogh or Proust here, I mean, figuratively speaking. Many of the leading figures in the industry. Maybe you think wanting that is silly, but... yeah, some of us are really into that sort of thing.

I am in silicon valley, mostly for the social reasons you mention. I think that's valid, and it's worth the extra money for me. It's not worth the extra money for some other people, an that's fine too, but this is what I want to spend my money on, and I feel that I'm getting a reasonable value out of the deal.

(There is also monetary advantages... but if I'm being honest with myself, I'm mostly here for the social advantages.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> > The amount of talent that I need for the problem that we're trying to solve

NumberFour has an incredibly high turnover of talent, both from what I anecdotally hear from people who workED their (apparently no one sticks around for longer than a year...) and when looking online at their ratings: [http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1](http://www.kununu.com/de/be/berlin/in/numberfour1)

So, if you you want to emigrate to Berlin, please do so, but be aware that there are great and ... not-so-great companies here (like everywhere else).

[Disclaimer: I shortly considered applying at NumberFour, but quickly dismissed it ]

</comment><comment><USER29> I clawed and scratched my way into Europe (Ireland) because I was sick and tired of my taxes supporting drone warfare and I didn't want to have to pay $2500 per month for an apartment so I could ride a bike to work. It's awesome.

By all accounts Germany is even nicer, with a stronger economy, better cycling infrastructure, and cheaper rents. Honestly I'm not sure why you'd move to the US if Germany is an option.

<comment><USER30> Also, Berlin is international enough that you'll get by quite nicely without speaking German.

<comment><USER31> You need to be willing and able to learn German in addition to simply working in Berlin. Depending on your ability to pick up new languages, this can be quite a lot of extra work in the evening and/or weekends (it was for me).

Not everyone can, or is willing to (e.g. in banks) speak English, or you may sometimes find yourself on the wrong railway platform, or having a long wait in the wrong queue when you cannot understand German.

The big German cities I know well: Berlin, Hamburg and Munich are all very nice places to live and work.

<comment><USER30> Sure, things are nicer if you speak even a little German. I don't, and have been doing fine in Berlin. Other German cities on the other hand are a different story.

Oh, and on banks... At least Sparkasse got me an English-speaking rep when I asked for one.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I didn't see any official statistics in this Bloomberg article, which is unusual for articles on public policy issues from that publisher. Such statistics would be helpful for putting the individual statements by business owners in context.

What do we know about the total number of immigrants who arrive in Germany each year under the visa status described in the article? How does that compare to the total number of immigrants who arrive in the United States each year under its visa categories mentioned in the article? As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States? (In net immigration between the two countries, do different categories of immigrants have differing net preferences for one country or the other?) It's really hard to figure out how generalizable the statements in this article are without more context like this. Statistics trump anecdotes, even though anecdotes are more compelling to the human mind.

<comment><USER13> _As a matter of country-to-country net immigration, does the United States gain immigrants from Germany, or does Germany gain immigrants from the United States?_

It is hard to find comparable statistics, but Germany claimed to have about 100,000 US citizens living there total in 2011[1]. In 2011, over 600,000 people who were born in Germany resided in the US[2].

1\. [https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelke...](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Publikationen/Thematisch/Bevoelkerung/MigrationIntegration/AuslaendBevoelkerung2010200117004.pdf?__blob=publicationFile)

2\. [http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat- Pr...](http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2013/01/PHC-2011-FB-Stat-Profiles.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Even Boerries says it will still take a long time for a 'techie' to acquire a Visa, Germany just offers a simpler application process and is fastER than that of Americas.

And even if the time it takes to get a Visa is close to similar, it comes down to a debate between being in Silicon Valley vs. Berlin...despite the so-called saturation of startups in the valley, the reality is opportunity is far greater in the valley than anywhere else. Silicon Valley wins IMO.

<comment><USER34> Remember, though, that Germany's in the EU; that's a big pool of people who don't require a visa at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> as an aspiring foreign entrepreneur (to US), i have personally been through visa hell the past year. i spent almost an entire year going through the horrible visa process, and til today i'm still yet to receive one. i've been denied 3 times already and i highly doubt i will ever get one. i don't understand why america is so hostile to foreigners these days.

for the record, i have a bachelor's degree from a respectable american university (the only visa i've ever gotten), i have no criminal convictions and i come from a wealthy 1%-er family from my country. i cannot see how i pose any risk at all to america by letting me in. i've very recently made my last attempt to return to US, and if this fails again, i will not try again and will be looking to canada instead where i will bring all the resources i have and try to start something. i hope to succeed, if only just for the chance to be in the news and say something to the effect of "America, you could have had all these taxes paid to you and all these jobs created by my company, instead you shut your doors to me and so fuck you"

</comment><comment><USER36> This article prompted me to look into something I've been interested in for a while - what's the skilled vs unskilled breakdown in immigration for various countries?

Canada and Australia, as far as I understand it, do emphasize skilled immigration, though not exclusively (Australia has a points test that I think the US would do well to emulate). I read a lot of praise for Germany's startup visa, but I'm also reading about hostility toward immigrants, boats of poor, uneducated (and most likely) migrants sinking off the coast of Italy or the shores of Australia... there's a lot of anecdote here (stories like that attract a lot of attention - but are they typical?). A really broad look would be interesting to read about.

I actually haven't been able to find much about this, though - at least not on a nation-by-nation basis. It does sound like a difficult bit of data analysis, because the numbers themselves are tough to interpret (for example, would migration within the EU count as immigration, whereas Californians moving to Texas wouldn't?).

Anyone got any good links?

</comment><comment><USER37> I moved to Tübingen, Germany from the South Bay this week to move closer to my wife. I was able to establish a company and I'm currently working for my company. While I needed to work with a few German lawyers to navigate the legal processes, the whole thing was surprisingly painless.

I was on an H1B in the US and it would have taken me close to a decade to get permanent residence and start a company that I could work for. For some context, I'm an ex-Googler and I've been part of the founding team of a successful startup previously. Despite all the above it would have been difficult for me to found a startup in the US and work for it.

However, after a few months of applying to Germany I now have a registered GmbH, an approval for a Blue Card and I'm paying my bills through consulting. I should be able to start work on my startup in a short while once I have sufficient run-way to pay my own salary for a year or so.

I just signed a lease for office space yesterday and I'm looking forward to exploring the German startup scene.

</comment><comment><USER38> Are there any Berlin startups in here willing to write a "Letter of Intent"? If so, I'd love to send you an email and explain more!

(Basically, a Letter of Intent is a non-binding letter used to get a freelance visa that shows the applicant is capable of building connections - I intend to actually work on my own projects once I get in the door.)

</comment><comment><USER39> Just to chip in on the Berlin train. As OP stated, it's fairly easy to get a visa, but you might not even need one. I know tons of people who have no official visa whatsoever, are just there on a tourist visa, which really is just a simple stamp at the border. No one really cares.

Usual talking points include the low living costs but relatively high standard of living, making it the ideal ground for people in their 20s-30s trying to get something off the ground.

Can't really comment on what happens once you get off the ground, generally Germany is just a bureaucracy if not worse than the US.

Also, it's super hip to hate on all the newcomers to Berlin and how Berlin becomes no hip no more. Funny thing is that most of them have barely been a year or two in Berlin. As born-and-raised Berliner, I reserve myself the right to shit on the influx of people.

<comment><USER40> If I were seeking citizenship in Germany but had only been in the country on the tourist visa, does the (5 year?) timer start from when I arrived in the country, or from when I get an official visa?

You can work a job legally without a work visa?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Added to the fact that people coming from India and China don't have options like DV list, O1 and are sort of ill-treated and are looked down upon, etc., - I owe a lot of gratitude to the outsourcing and loan staff boom. Thanks Infosys, Wipro, etc.,

Can someone comment on how London compares with Berlin?

</comment><comment><USER42> What is the Big Data startup scene like in Berlin?

I am about to graduate with a PhD in Machine Learning from a US university. I have talked to several Big Data startups in the valley but being a foreigner, the visa is a hurdle. But if this article is true, maybe I should look at the Berlin scene.

<comment><USER43> There are lots of startups in Berlin, and the tech scene is flourishing. However, I always feel that companies here are behind the state of the art. There might be exceptions, this is just my impression when I go to meetups, presentations, or talk to colleagues (they have worked for quite a few different companies here in Berlin).

That being said, there are quite a few companies that are into the big data business. Having a PhD will certainly make it very easy for you to get a good job here.

<comment><USER42> That's nice to know. Do you work for a Berlin big data startup too?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> As a argentinian programmer with italian citizenship that is considering leaving the country for Europe, are there any sites / forums or communities where I can contact startups or companies residing in Berlin?

I'm a web developer with experience in Ruby, Rails and Javascript

<comment><USER45> You may want to take a look at [http://berlinstartupjobs.com](http://berlinstartupjobs.com)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> The immigration policies in Berlin/Germany might be better than they are in the US, but they are _far_ from perfect.

As someone from Berlin who went through the whole process multiple times from an employer perspective, these are my experiences:

When you hire someone from the EU: No problems at all.

When someone is from another "western" country (USA, Australia, etc.): Things take some more time and are a bit of a hassle, but are basically OK.

Everything else: Big problems. Unless you are formally really well qualified, a work permit is pretty hard to attain. If it is even possible at all, it definitely takes a lot of time and energy from everyone involved.

</comment><comment><USER47> One negative is if I want to immigrate and get citizenship, I would have to give up my original citizenship. It's too bad that the EU's start up hub is in a country without dual citizenship.

<comment><USER12> If your own country allows dual citizenship, you are not legally prohibited to get your original citizenship again after taking German. Germany doesn't explicitly prohibit their citizens to take another country citizenship, it just doesn't want to grant its own if you don't renounce all your old citizenships. IANAL, but know many people who did just that.

<comment><USER47> Unless your from the UK or EU which just lets you get it again relatively easily or the consequences very minor, many countries make you go through the green card song and dance all over again. It's a pain in today's international world.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER48> I find it ironic that Germany emigration policy is considered friendly. I live in Czech Republic, but it was easier to move to Ireland than to neighboring Germany.

Germany is very nationalistic state, it had number of exceptions from EU open space. Even now German Police searches vehicles with foreign registration plates (search is nearly disassembly).

German law is VERY unfriendly to startups, and the taxes for companies and workers are very high. I would choose Ireland, Czech Rep or Poland over Germany any time

</comment><comment><USER26> If you are a expat and want to create a startup in Berlin, how hard is it? what would you need? how hard is to get the visa?

I've seen that France was creating a "startup visa" to help foreigners founders to create companies there. Is there something similar going on on Germany?

Im realling looking over this, and was thinking about Berlin, Paris or Rio (on my own country)

Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option

<comment><USER29> Edit: I also can go for the Polish citizenship as a polish descendant and get into the EU that way as another option

That seems like the obvious choice. Do that. Then you can do this like any other EU citizen, and if it fails you're not worried about getting kicked out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> It is a bit off topic, but do people have a good reference to German government policy around self employment visas and laws? Realistically, via the wife (a German national), I could arrange necessary permits when we decide to move there. That said, I'd like to know what the self employment/self funding routes might be just to be better rounded in the whole approach.

</comment><comment><USER50> I remain surprised that the US hasn't adopted more of this sort of attitude toward immigration. Historically it's a country that's always been about taking the best talent from elsewhere, so I remain baffled that it's so difficult in modern days. Especially with 'silicon valley' being located in America.

</comment><comment><USER51> Take note of the caveat at the bottom of the article:

*"The Germans appreciate their visa-application process in comparison with America's, but in the end, it's still a slower process than many techies are willing to tolerate."

German bureaucracy may not be the worst in the world, but it is significantly more convoluted than the United States.

</comment><comment><USER13> US Visa laws are certainly hard, but there is a positive side (for the US at least): only those that are highly motivated to move here make it through the process.

This really does bias the types of immigrants we get. As much as people might complain about immigrants coming in and then going on welfare, it just doesn't happen with any frequency. Instead, we get immigrants who come here and start companies at twice the rate of natural born citizens.

Our labor laws also select for people who really want to work - at least compared to our European counterparts. I don't mean to say that people who emigrate to Europe don't want to work, but the perception that you have to work longer hours in the US certainly does weed out the people who are overly concerned about working too much.

As long as we continue to have people who want to come to the US, I can't see why we'd want to make the process easier unless we can continue to keep these filters in place.

<comment><USER52> Or: weeding out everyone who believes forms and bureaucracy shouldn't constitute a significant fraction of one's mental landscape, or who is offended by the extent to which the difficulty of the process makes it seem like the government doesn't want you here in the first place, or whose opportunities in other countries are close enough in attractiveness for the annoyance to tip the scale (presumably precisely the people you should most _try_ to attract).

Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a _lottery_.

<comment><USER13> _Though "weeding out" or "filtering" to any real extent clearly isn't all that much of a priority when a large part of the system is a lottery._

The green card lottery (Diversity Immigrant Visa) makes up less than 5% of the total green cards issued in the US. I'd hardly call that a large part of the system.

<comment><USER52> I was thinking of H1B.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> It's things like this that make me wish Silicon Valley invested less energy and resources in nutty utopian schemes like artificial islands and more in lobbying for liberalization and modernization of U.S. immigration policy.

</comment><comment><USER54> Most importantly (imo) Berlin is a European capital with fun stuff to do and very affordable rent and cost of living.

The location is also decent as it is attractive for many eastern Europeans who tend to be well trained and not hyperexpensive.

<comment><USER55> This is changing. Rents in Berlin are rising by more than 10% each year in most areas.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> No details as usual. Can i immigrate to Germany as a self-employed?

<comment><USER29> Not sure about Germany, but if you're from the US look up "Dutch American Friendship Treaty" if the Netherlands strikes your fancy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> What about language barriers? Many German companies officially use English as their business language on paper at least, but how true would this be for startups?

<comment><USER57> English will get you by in Berlin. If the startup has international employees, then English will be spoken heavily inside the startup (usually).

Outside of your startup, you'll want to at least learn enough German to be able to ask for things in a shop, order at restaurants. Though even if you were to speak in English, you'll find most people will be able to respond in English and help you out, but that depends on how far you travel. Once you start getting out beyond the ring (metro system), you'll find the level of English degrade.

One tip when you start out here: Genuinely apologise to someone that you do not speak German in German, ask if they speak English in German, and they will almost always be happy to speak in English. Start blurting out loudly in an American-English accent and you may not receive the same level of hospitality.

Source: Live and worked for a few startups here in Berlin, speaking from anecdotal evidence based on experiences from both German and expat friends

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Startups might like it, but investors don't. Bootstrapping startups might be favorable in Berlin on the other hand.

</comment><comment><USER59> Australians have a special case: we can get work in the US on the E-3 visa, which is much easier to obtain than a H1B.

</comment><comment><USER60> While we're at it, is it possible to opt out a pension/unemployment insurance from the income tax?

</comment><comment><USER61> This story reminds me of those "Pivot to Canada" billboards you sometimes see in the valley.

</comment><comment><USER62> because Germany has good laws and Berlin is a big city, yet EXTREMELY cheap.

The visa doesn't have all that much to do with it really. Most of the people in the US don' need a US visa, and guess what, more of the Europeans are close to Berlin. Crazy I know.

<comment><USER63> _Most of the people in the US don 't need a US visa_

I'd say about half of my friends in the US are not US citizens, and their most frequent topic of conversation is visas. If you want to just show up in the US and work illegally, that's fine. But if you want to do it legally, visas are a big deal.

<comment><USER62> so you're saying half of the US population are not US citizens based on your experience? Sure. Right.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> Please re-post this when some startup company successfully files billion dollar IPO.

</comment><comment><USER65> Talent == Cheap labour.</comment>


Death of George Floyd is on the looter's hands, according to LA's police chief - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIBoxt9maJs&t=1m4s <comment><USER2> He is being raked over the coals by the LA Police Commission right now. Garcetti is nowhere to be seen today.</comment>


Russian iTunes Store shows porn images by mistake - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20627460

<comment><USER2> An (fired) intern working on that process using xxx placeholder? Only thing I can think of that makes sense..</comment>


Ask HN: What's your way of contributing back to software engineering community - <AUTHOR> First of all I would like to appreciate the efforts of all those people who write blog posts answers questions on forums and build oss voluntarily.As someone who's beginning career in software engineering how can i contribute back to community. <comment><USER2> I heavily invest myself in two aspects.

1\. Improving documentation of open source projects.

2\. Reviewing and flagging/improving questions on Stackoverflow.</comment>


Ask HN: Ideas for a small passive income site - <AUTHOR> I'm a web developer, happy to use my spare time to build one or several small passive income sites. Looking for ideas for what to build. <comment><USER2> Can I suggest that you focus on ways to create outsized value with software? This puts you several steps ahead of the game. Speaking in generalities, the "passive income" crowd don't tend to actually build businesses and _often_ don't create sustainable, defensible value in their projects. If you build a business with sustainable, defensible value, then "all" you need to do from that point is figure out the right combination of algorithms and employees such that your personal time investment is sufficiently low such that it hits your "passive" threshhold.

If you want some more concrete ideas, in lieu of copy/pasting a previous comment: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5904316](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5904316)

<comment><USER3> Just read your list. Awesome. Can you expand on number 2 a bit? Are there other similar questions that can get people talking about solutions amenable to a software product?

I like the Excel idea a lot, I'm hoping to have several such questions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You should build a site that helps people find ideas to gain passive income. This topic comes up enough that there is a clear market.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply. I've visited many of the sites that attempt to provide a fountain of ideas, but never found them to be on point. Seems like a challenging product to make.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Fork my Stopwatch app for iOS. It makes just over $5/day, and I never did much work on it.

Completely open source, no real marketing.

[https://github.com/andrewljohnson/StopWatch-of- Gaia](https://github.com/andrewljohnson/StopWatch-of-Gaia)

[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stopwatch-+-timer-stop- watch...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stopwatch-+-timer-stop- watch/id518178439?mt=8)

<comment><USER6> Is there a way in iOS for one app to trigger the opening of another app? I was thinking more in an alarm clock situation but perhaps also in a timer situation. For example, "start my Spotify in 1 hour".

<comment><USER7> URL Schemes are the only way to communicate between apps. So to launch an app you'd need to know it's NSURL (for spotify it's "spotify") to build a URL and do: [[UIApplication sharedApplication] openURL:];

<comment><USER5> There are also App Extensions now, as of iOS8: [https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documenta...](https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/ios/documentation/General/Conceptual/ExtensibilityPG/index.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Pick a specific audience and build them a platform or a way to connect with others looking for their services.

Some random ideas I just came up with are below. Not all of them passive, but might still interest you.

\- Website with WordPress templates for real estate agents.

\- WordPress multisite network that enables real estate agents to create a site quickly and then pay a monthly hosting fee. You could scale this by selling to different real estate companies, getting all of their agents a personal site.

\- Mobile marketing for restaurants. Create a service that enables restaurants to send text message deals to customers.

\- Pick an audience that interests you and post user generated content. Then sell ads/sponsorships to companies that want to be in front of that audience. For example, if you create a site for people to submit cute dog pictures, a company like BarkBox might pay for sponsorship.

\- Teach people a skill and use Amazon affiliate links to the tools that you use (if possible).

\- Marketing analytics. Build a tool that integrates with Google analytics and provides recommended actions to take to improve website performance.

\- Create a stock photo site for a specific niche (doctors, lawyers, start ups, etc).

\- Create a directory for a specific niche and then sell top placement on that directory.

\- Create a site that allows people who don't know how to code to make an app.

<comment><USER9> FWIW I built idea #3 here (mobile marketing for restaurants), except I targeted another, but similar, niche.

I used long codes (short codes are expensive!), and I didn't do the marketing myself. It's basically a way for them to keep a list of customers, enable automatic signups by texting the number, etc. They write their own messages and send them out.

I'm not much of a salesman, but I was able to make a few sales, mostly to local places via in-person conversations.

Anyway, I have this software built and I'm willing to talk about moving it into other niches.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Move fast, this one will blow over quick: Ebola supplies/starter kits, either self-assembled (highest effort, high margin) or just stacks of amazon products with referrals (low effort, low margin).

Second revenue stream for this - there are lots of "end of the world preparedness" sites (think of the people who are buying Glenn Beck's gold coins and you've got an idea of the demographic) that would pay to advertise on a website that attracts people who want to buy their way out of future- phobia.

</comment><comment><USER11> I was thinking about starting an open source project like Wordpress, Ghost.io, etc.. Then create a market for templates. There used to be more "production ready" open source projects back in the day.. Not as much anymore.

Some open source project ideas:

\- subscription commerce (open source birchbox model)

\- location based platform for mobile apps (open source Uber/Lyft model)

\- host your own airbnb page (open source airbnb)

etc..

essentially, any type of successful business model that can be replicated in other industries, open source it, then monetize on templates.

<comment><USER10> Disclaimer: I have no stats to back this up, at all. Just been in the game awhile.

The entry level commerce space (shopify, opencart, woocommerce, etc) always feels overcrowded, but few things really nail it.

Opencart is the only truly free service that's a contender, and it's _terrible_. Granted - ecommerce, especially security, is very difficult, and asking for that in a free product is lofty.

If you can build a commerce platform that's as low-investment as opencart (read: free) with the UX quality of shopify, and just let it into the wild, you can make an absolute killing by owning the plugin and template market associated.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This has been written about so much there is really no point in repeating it here. Just Google Pat Flynn. He has a whole blog about it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the tip, I'll do that.

<comment><USER13> Short overview of what he does:

He has a wildly popular blog, and he is an affiliate for a few products, most notably, hosting. He makes 30K or more per month, from this one affiliate program.

He sells an ebook, something related to green architecture.

He also builds info sites, with Adsense on them and makes a few thousand from those.

He has a couple of iOS apps I believe, built with outsourcing.

As far as I can see, none of the above is passive or even close to passive (except may be the ebook). He worked hard to get where he is, and still does. He shares much of his numbers - good inspiration if you need some.

<comment><USER14> Passive does not equal no work. I think the passive comes in after you put in that initial work, creating ebook, adsense sites, etc. and then only needing to devote a minimum of time to maintain that income.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I feel like there's a ton of untapped potential in online store affiliates, beyond the usual "blogs and reviews". Maybe something that imports the wishlist for one particular "big box online retailer / cloud services provider" and notifies the user if any product on the list goes down in price at one of many different vendors?

I have a few other ideas in that vein, but I am curious of any traps that may be encountered.

</comment><comment><USER16> Do research on fast growing internet markets (think Asia/Africa - may need to go one level deeper like a region or major city).

Then see if that country or region has a dominant job board/classified website/real estate listing etc.

Millions of users are just coming to the internet in those countries and have room for growth. Many of the existing websites offer horrible experience.

</comment><comment><USER17> Try pg's list of "ideas we'd like to fund". [http://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/](http://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/)

Ancient, but here's a blog post I wrote with some ideas: [http://www.puremango.co.uk/2010/10/ten- ideas/](http://www.puremango.co.uk/2010/10/ten-ideas/)

And Jacques Mattheij's post that inspired me: [http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are...](http://jacquesmattheij.com/My+list+of+ideas+for+when+you+are+looking+for+inspiration)

<comment><USER5> None of this looks small or passive to me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> dropship items that cater to an unsavvy market (old people, hobbyists, memes, videogame/fanship communities). People less inclined to seek things out on amazon themselves. alternatively, work on something YOU care about and make something worthwhile. You might even make a buck

</comment><comment><USER19> Look through some of the sites and apps for sale on Flippa.com and SideProjectors.com. You can get some ideas and maybe find an existing project to take over and build on.

<comment><USER20> I've bought a couple of domains on Flippa that had a 'built in' business purpose. SideProjectors has been very hit or miss in that some of those sellers don't respond back to any questions (for me at least).

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> make some tool/app for people in lesser known occupation.. maybe plumbers or mechanics .. where they can exchange things,etc..

</comment><comment><USER22> go to blackhatworld.com and In under a week you can build something since you have web skills that hits $10/day passively. Then scale parallel until you've got a salary, then work on your dream.</comment>


Choosing a Two-Factor Authentication System - CloudFlare blog - <AUTHOR> http://blog.cloudflare.com/choosing-a-two-factor-authentication-system <comment><USER2> Google Authenticator doesn't communicate with google at all - I don't understand where he pulled "but we were nervous about handing another key to identity over to a company whose primary business is search and advertising" out from?

Also, both the client and server software is open-source, so that can be confirmed too.

Also, a mobile phones time is synchronized by the GSM network, it doesn't drift much (if at all).

</comment><comment><USER3> Hopefully more services start adding multi-factor authentication. So far, I have my Google Account, Dropbox, and now CloudFlare.

Hearing that Authy will soon support Google Authenticator tokens is great news! I have never encountered the "out of sync" problem with Google Authenticator described in the article, but the Authy app does feel more native on my iPhone.</comment>


How to live for millions of years - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160602-some-lifeforms-may-have-been-alive-since-the-dinosaur-era <comment><USER2> Step 1: be single-celled</comment>


Oyo Has Remade India's Hotel Business. Now It Is Going Global - <AUTHOR> https://www.wsj.com/articles/oyo-has-remade-indias-hotel-business-now-it-is-going-global-11561311205?mod=rsswn <comment><USER2> Paywall. Subscription fatigue.</comment>


We need an offshoring tax - <AUTHOR> http://services.silicon.com/offshoring/0,3800004877,39453991,00.htm <comment><USER2> Quote: _Let's start with the value proposition. Offshoring should never been seen as only a cost savings exercise - the hidden costs associated with quality control, oversight, lack of grass roots innovation, lower standards of service based on service agreements, and exit costs need to be fully considered._

 _If you don't consider all of these aspects, you have not properly understood the true value proposition and may be surprised when you do not see any real cost savings._

So he's saying that the companies that offshore will lose value relative to the companies that don't? If that's the case, why is government intervention necessary?

<comment><USER3> I think he's saying that the costs of offshoring aren't reflected in the price, and that when you buy for the low price you also get liabilities you didn't know were there.

Kind of like the externalities of oil and gas exploration, drilling, pollution, habitat destruction, etc that happen when you buy gas but aren't included in the price.

EDIT: I don't think this is true, just an attempt to explain the article. Companies that buy bad outsourcing packages will lose to ones that manage their business better (onshore or off)

<comment><USER4> Those costs are not at all kind of like externalities because an externality is an impact on a not directly involved ("external") party. But these costs are all on the organization who decided to outsource, so — unlike with externalities — one shouldn't expect a market failure, and the article does not provide evidence of one, or even claim one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "Offshoring countries provide huge subsidies to their homegrown services companies to stimulate growth in the market, so it makes sense to provide offsetting incentives for companies to look at local talent."

On the other hand, why not accept the free gift from the offshoring countries? The subsidies they pay (if they really do) translate directly into savings of your tax payers. On the other hand any "offshore tax" would just come directly out of the pocket of your tax payers by way of having to pay higher prices for the products of the off-shoring country. So there would be no net gain.

Just to name another way to look at it. I don't know what the best course is, but that article seemed to be all claims and little reason.

<comment><USER6> Right on.

Industrial subsidies in countries like China translate to a net transfer of wealth from Chinese taxpayers to taxpayers in countries buying the subsidised service.

From a standpoint of global economic utility, subsidies shouldn't be encouraged however, because they lead to sub-optimal allocation of resources. It seems to me that a good way to get rid of subsidies is to make the case to the taxpayers footing the bill. If prompted, it seems unlikely that the Chinese populace would want to pay for westerners getting artificially cheap goods and services.

(Just using China as an example here)

<comment><USER5> I am not sure that the subsidies really exist - labor simply is cheaper in some countries. Perhaps the best way to react is to accept the free gifts and transform them into innovation? That would be tax the own population that benefits from the cheap imports (subsidized or not), and invest the collected money into diversification and research? It seems unlikely to me that the industries subject to offshoring will ever fully recover. Or, if the industries seem likely to recover, maybe they should receive the tax money? After all, aren't the subsidies an attempt to squeeze competition out of the market, to come back with higher prices once the monopoly is established? So the tax money should maybe be spent on helping the industries survive.

For example lots of money could be spend on fancy software projects, that have no pressure to make money. Then, when India and other countries can not keep the prices low any longer, there will still be software companies in the own country. They can then turn back to producing serious stuff. (Just thinking for fun here). On the other hand, maybe the no-worries exploration phase yields some interesting results that bring in money later on.

Also, where to draw the line? Is it realistic to watch the whole world for "fair labor prices"? It seems more realistic to try to make one's own country "fair", you can't solve everybody else's problems, too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Rather than an off shoring tax, I think we need to look at the flow of assets covered under intellectual property across borders. I'm just putting this idea out there; I'm not sure how I feel about it personally. But businesses want to treat intellectual property like real property. However, unlike real property, they want the benefits of being able to ship it over borders without restriction (e.g., an off shoring company sending the latest code on a nightly basis). Real property is subject to import tariffs, duties, rules, etc.

Countries wouldn't just accept truck loads of goods crossing into their borders without restriction unless some sort of free trade deal was in place. But this is essentially what is happening with intellectual property. Every night, a huge amount of intellectual property gets transferred via the net from one country to another (e.g., an off shoring company's nightly build). Unless I'm mistaken (which I very well may be), it's hardly accounted for. I'm not sure that we can continue to have it both ways with intellectual property. It probably should either consistently be treated like property, or not.

<comment><USER8> Free trade is the default. It has to deliberately made otherwise. Restricted trade serves only special interests and since the world is gradually trying to move towards undoing trade restrictions I don't see why this is a good argument.

<comment><USER7> I'm not disagreeing with you, however free trade is most certainly not a default as far as the law is concerned. As such, intellectual property is for all practical purposes being treated entirely inconsistent with real property in this manner.

EDIT: FYI here is the U.S. Harmonized Tariff Schedule in delimited format (2.0 MB) [http://www.usitc.gov/publications/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/09...](http://www.usitc.gov/publications/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0910_HTS_delimited.txt) to give a sense of the sort of wire-ranging tariffs that exist on real goods imported to the U.S.

<comment><USER7> I wouldn't normally whine, but why is this comment being downmodded? It's largely a factual observation. In fact, the parent of the comment above is arguably incorrect in that countries have recently been imposing protectionist measures. Notably, the "Buy American" clause of the stimulus package has resulted in terribly protectionist measures. Countries that do trade with the U.S. have responded in kind with protectionist measures of their own. While it's true that the world was moving toward freer trade, I don't think you can say that this is the case today in the presence of so much evidence to the contrary.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Sort of like a tariff? This will end well.

</comment><comment><USER10> We don't need any more tax, thank you very much. It's called competition, just deal with it. If a company feels it can get a better deal (in terms of either quality or price), and they go offshore to get it, that's your problem, not theirs.

Either improve your quality, lower your prices, or both.

</comment><comment><USER11> It seems hard to define "offshoring" clearly enough to write a law for this tax. Couldn't you serve the same goal, though, by encouraging companies to hire locally, i.e. subsidizing job creation? There are lots of ways to do this, such as a tax credit based on how many full-time employees a business has. Many jurisdictions already have such a tax, so perhaps we need to ask:

1\. how much of a local-hire subsidy would we want, and

2\. how do we educate business managers about the cost advantages available through such subsidies, so they have a better understanding of the comprehensive cost of offshoring?

</comment><comment><USER12> Write the equation that defines "the national interest".

The economy is an extremely complex system. This guy wants to fix a component of that very complex, highly-inter-related system with a verbal argument. Hand-waving. No testing of the law, which he doesn't specify. No testing of the implementation mechanism, a gov bureaucracy, which we know to be extremely un-reliable, and to be so complex a subsystem as to have emergent properties which often produce perverse effects.

This has as much chance of making the world a better place as a random change to source code in the linux kernel.

</comment><comment><USER13> This is not hacker news.

<comment><AUTHOR> yeah because offshoring has nothing to do with programming</comment></comment>


Social Media's Dial-Up Ancestor: The Bulletin Board System (2016) - <AUTHOR> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/social-medias-dialup-ancestor-the-bulletin-board-system <comment><USER2> I used to run a BBS in Florida (904 area code) on an Atari 800XL with two acoustically coupled 300 baud modems. I eventually found a pair of 1200 baud USRobotics modems at a garage sale (!) for $50 (!!), and started curating ANSI graphics and RIP menus and Atari demoscene (such as it was), along with all the code and scans I could find for Atari projects (like a WeFax decoder, my favorite).

Man, I was so addicted to Door programs like TradeWars.

I ended up going to a few (I guess you'd call them) meetups of other SysOps and learning all I could about FidoNet and NNTP gateways and so many things I think I'm starting to ramble out of pure nostalgia.

Those were the days; watching a roughly pixelated scan of a swimsuit model slowly paint on the screen while downloading at 300bps via ZMODEM.

Yep. Those were the days.

Especially when your BBS was running on your home phone lines, and your older brother needed to call his $%{*3H# NO CARRIER

<comment><USER3> My first paid programming gig was $20 for a piece of relcoatable machine code to calculate the XModem checksum in a USR$ call instead of in BASIC for the BBS operator who had just upgraded to a 1200 baud modem and found the transfers were only barely faster.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> one interesting thing is that the BBS would have been impossible if the government hadn't forced AT&T to allow people to hook their own chosen devices into the telephone network.

In other words, in the old days, phones did not have a jack in the wall - AT&T came to your house and wired their network directly into your telephone. They did not want the RJ-45 jack which made consumer Modems possible. The government forced them to open up their network to other device makers, to competitors.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterfone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterfone)

I really wonder if the modern techno giants would be able to be regulated by the government if they became stagnant monopolies.

<comment><USER5> I remember using a 300 baud modem with an acoustic coupler (rubber-cupped cradle). After a while, that got swapped out for a electrically- connected/jacked 1200 baud modem.

That also made "war dialing" practical. Not something I engaged in (kind of wish now that I'd been more "interesting"), but the business I was connecting to had to block an ex-employee a couple of times, who kept finding their dial- in number.

Today's systems may be way faster and more "entertaining", in a mass sense. But I miss the old culture.

Including the openness and exchange. If you were interested, and you weren't a jerk, people would bend over backwards to help you. And they enjoyed doing so -- well, most of them. Which is how I ended up on those first systems, anyway.

I think a lot of people miss that culture. But, it just doesn't scale to the general population.

<comment><USER6> Surely people today have watched Wargames - Broderick used an acoustic coupler in his nefarious attempts to get into his classmate's pants

<comment><USER7> Which, perhaps ironically, is a small plot hole in the movie. "Wardialing" is not possible with a coupler - since the computer has no ability to hang up, or dial. When using a coupler, you have to dial manually.

<comment><USER8> Could you not run a relay from thr parallel port and pulse dial?

<comment><USER7> Yeah, you could. But there's no pulse dialing depicted in the movie.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Count me as yet another person who would likely not be here, commenting on HN, without discovering BBSes and falling in love with the merging of hacking, designing, and community.

I ran a heavily, heavily modded Renegade board in 412/724 (Pittsburgh) with some good distros into the art and demoscenes in Europe. Nearly every free minute of my life back then was related: drawing ANSI, tracking MODs, trying to figure out how to get Lightboxes to work with Renegade, playing LORD and hanging out with other users from around the Pittsburgh area.

I consider myself incredibly lucky to have been a curious teenager in a time when BBSes were a thing, and the web as we currently know it was born.

</comment><comment><USER10> I love the "ancient tech" topics :) as time marches on I tend to think "...wow...I used that!" BBS, Gopher, and other tools which are still (maybe not commonly) used like Pine and Lynx are a few items that come up in conversation that prompt a sense of wonder in me. Things have come a long way since I first started to dabble...and I'm not even "that old"!

<comment><USER11> Then you realise that this happened 30 year ago and then you feel old. At least I do.

I used to use a bbs offline "mail" client called blue wave, and it would import .qwk files from the bbs, then you spent your time replying offline and in the end would upload a .rep package containing said replies.

In some ways I miss it but in other ways I have a 500/500 internet fiber connection now and do not miss the days when donloading a 10 mb file took the rest of the day.

<comment><USER12> Yep, same on CiX in the UK. We had to pay for phone access by the minute, so an offline reader was absolutely necessary.

<comment><USER11> Same here in Norway. I remember being jealous of people in the US with a flat local rate. We paid by the minute for everything, even more for "long" distance. My father got rather upset when we got a phone bill of 5000 NOK back in the day because I had downloaded something from a BBS in Bergen from Oslo.

Funny how things have reversed, now we are the ones with unmetered fast internet and the US has datacaps and whatnot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The big difference is everyone on bbses had a handle for some reason everyone uses there real name / posts where they work.

Social media wouldn't be such a problem if people stopped using their real name

<comment><USER14> Anonymous handles have a different set of problems which I think is why we've landed on real names for much of social media. Personally I prefer real names in most contexts, but I get why some people don't.

<comment><USER15> Anonymity is very comforting, you brought your discussion to the table without stereotype or preconception getting in the way, much like this very site and the reason why reddit is so popular. It is the basis for free discussion, a foundation pillar of the internet.

It's truly amazing that the early internet was a social experaince that went though a weird product/service commercial driven phase, and now we find ourselves trying to balance both of those out.

<comment><USER14> right, but I don't think we can ignore the problem of cesspools of really toxic behaviour that is at times enabled with anonymous handles. Moderation is much more important in those contexts. HN works because it's pretty heavily moderated (both by users via downvotes + comments and admins).

But a heavily moderated forum is not a completely free discussion environment. And the forums full of toxic comments aren't really that free either, because a huge portion of potential participants choose not to participate because of the nasty environment.

Clearly in some (many?) contexts there's a need for anonymity, and in some cases (HN) it seems to work out ok. I'm just not sure if anonymous is the right default for a lot of social media contexts. Both Slashdot and Reddit have become unusable for me because of the signal to noise ratio is so low (reddit may have some subreddits with better behaviour, but not any of the ones I found personally interesting).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Probably of interest: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System) which is the largest of its kind in Taiwan

</comment><comment><USER17> I keep meaning to get the documentary they mention - [http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/](http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/)

Be curious about reviews of it.

<comment><USER18> It's a great documentary; worth watching.

I have a friend and former co-worker who had relevant role in the movie (and, funny enough, I only discovered years later, when I re-watched it).

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> It's fun to compare and contrast the games of the BBS era to mobile games today. In the BBS era there were countless time-regulated games such as LORD, Trade Wars, Usurper, and many more. By 'time regulated' I mean that you were given a certain amount of turns/energy/etc per 24 hours, and then had to wait to do more. It's literally the exact same model the seemingly vast majority of 'free' mobile games today use, except they did not try to coerce users into paying for more energy/turns/moves/...

<comment><USER20> Didn't sysops usually give donators extra time? Not sure if that mattered, I didn't spend much time playing those games.

<comment><USER19> That's on the BBS itself. E.g. a regular account might get an hour per day whereas an 'elite' might get 4 hours per day. BBS' were of course run through phone lines and while many operators set up multiple concurrent lines, access was still relatively limited so time limits on the site were necessary. Donors, by contrast, enabled operators to expand their service and buy even more lines and so on.

The games themselves are a different story. It's of course impossible to prove a negative, but I certainly never experienced any paid cheating or favoritism in Trade Wars - which I played on dozens of different sites and later on on the large telnet sites once the internet became a thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It was a blast installing, running, and later modifying BBS software. Usually the source was available somewhere, even for shareware stuff or via a warez site. Or you'd just hack it directly with a hex editor.

You'd have your usual haunts where you'd dial in to check messages (before fidonet). The haves were on HST dual standard, the have-nots on v32bis. Having a sysop break in for a chat was a fairly common occurrence.

Fun times...

</comment><comment><USER22> I frequented Image BBSes with my best friend of the same name; we dialed in from our respective Commodore 128s. Our favourite story was when one of our local boards was doing a promotion on download points over New Year's Eve. I was the last visitor on 19xx and he was the first visitor on 19xx+1, and we never had to upload a file ever again to that board. :)

</comment><comment><USER23> Recommendation for checking out Digital: A Love Story, a free PC game set mainly on BBSs in 1988.

[http://scoutshonour.com/digital/](http://scoutshonour.com/digital/)

</comment><comment><USER24> The New Jersey BBS communities from the early 90s were great. I assume that many of the members are doing well today, considering their interests were well aligned with the economy. I hope all are well.

</comment><comment><USER25> _many of the ... cultural practices that we now recognize as social media were first developed_

I caught the tail end of BBS culture and modern internet culture is nothing like it. See [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17534985](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17534985) and [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17535165](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17535165) for an example

<comment><USER26> Agreed. It may be safe to compare BBS culture with Usenet culture, not least of which because Fidonet enabled so much overlap toward that tail end you mention, but the sheer ubiquity alone makes today's Internet a different situation entirely.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I have a lot to thank BBSs for in cultivating my life.

Textfiles.com for nostalgia.

</comment><comment><USER24> Come on, no mention of Global Wars? :)</comment>


Seamfulness: A UI/UX paradigm that prioritizes intuition over seamlessness - <AUTHOR> https://4thquadrant.io/articles/transformations/beautiful-seamfulness-the-new-ui-ux-paradigm/ <comment><USER2> I've heard the term seamfulness in design before without properly grasping it and it took me some time to flesh out. The basic gist as I understand it is that our experience of the "real world" is characterized by intrinsic knowledge of limitations (seams) - but knowledge thereof allows for _intuitive_ navigation of said seams - knowing where the edges/seams are gives us a more satisfying/richer experience than running headlong into less- understood limitations where the seams have been hidden from us (ironically for our own convenience).

From the article _" when we know where the seams are and how to manipulate them. The power in being able to manipulate the seams creates an elevated experience, one that emulates the ease of a seamless experience with the added power of control. Where seams help you identify how any one element interacts with the broader environment, the knowledge of 'beautiful seams' (source) could become invaluable to the user experience."_</comment>