Ask HN: Best Office Chair? - <AUTHOR> My home desk-chair is nearly ten years old at this point, and wasn't anything special even when it was new. This is starting to become pretty noticeable now that I'm using it for eight hours every day.<p>Anybody have recommendations for their favorite office/desk chair? I don't want anything huge or ungainly, and ideally not one of those garish "gamer chairs". Something minimalist but comfy, and durable, and good for your back. I've really enjoyed those mesh-based chairs in the past, though I don't remember any specific brands. <comment><USER2> Steelcase Leap.

I went and sat in a bunch of high end office chairs including the Herman Miller Aeron, Herman Miller Embody, and Steelcase Gesture. I feel like the HM chairs are a lot more "opinionated" about how you sit, and sitting wrong will be punished with pain (e.g. back of the legs for folding your legs under the chair). I have heard that shorter people find them more comfortable though (6'1" here).

The Steelcase Gesture is a good chair too, but the arms on the Leap are leaps and bounds better (fixed Vs. semi-lock on the Gesture). I just feel like for computer/mouse users, having fixed arms makes a lot more sense than infinitely moveable ones that don't lock as well.

It was absolutely the right decision to spend almost $1K on a chair. I've already owned it longer than any other chair and it remains comfortable after a few initial weeks of tweaking.

<comment><USER3> I find the not-really-locking arms on the Gesture infuriating - this is my chair, i sit on it each and every day and after some initial adjustment i don't expect it to move, like, at all :/

<comment><USER4> While they are not "locking" it happens to me like once a month that I move the chair too near to the desk and twist them. It hardly ever happens with my elbows, so this might not be a problem for other people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Just went pretty deep in researching these...

If you're not budget conscious, look at the Herman Miller Aeron, Steelcase Leap V2, Steelcase Gesture, or Humanscale Freedom. Budget, seems to be a serious crapshoot. Lots of people like the top end Ikea chairs and those will cost 1/4 as much, but depends on if they fit your body and if you're ok with rigid arms.

Steelcase Leap V2 seems like the winner to me. Most adjustable, with a soft seat (Aeron has hard edged bottom mesh... and looks like an insect). Humanscale Freedom with headrest looks best IMO but not as comfortable and couldn't find good remanufactured ones.

Lots of refurbished/second hand options.

I ended up going with a remanufactured (starts with refurbished, gets cleaned up nicely, reupholstered and rebuilt). Half price for a chair that I hope feels like new.

BTOD ([https://www.btod.com/](https://www.btod.com/)) and Crandall ([https://www.crandalloffice.com/](https://www.crandalloffice.com/)) look like they sell the same product (and Crandall is the "factory" for both). If you go this route, see what price works better for you after promo codes and tax are factored in.

I went with this BTOD Leap V2: [https://www.btod.com/steelcase- leap-v2](https://www.btod.com/steelcase-leap-v2). Ordered yesterday. Fingers crossed that it feels like new.

I can't believe a great $300 or $400 (new) chair that's fully adjustable doesn't exist.

<comment><USER6> I have a fully-adjustable chair from Office Depot similar to this one for $350: [https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/448575/WorkPro- Quantu...](https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/448575/WorkPro- Quantum-9000-Series-Ergonomic-Mid/)

$450 for separate lumbar support: [https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/9518879/WorkPro-12000...](https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/9518879/WorkPro-12000-Ergonomic- MeshFabric-Managerial-Mid/)

<comment><USER5> Head good things about the WorkPros. Wish the design was a bit better.

How long have you had it and how do you like it?

I'm surprised there isn't a modern/stylish chair that can compete with HM/Steelcase and hit the $400ish range. Maybe I just don't understand enough about the materials and manufacturing costs necessary, but seems like this should be doable -- and the deeper I research brands who try this (like Autonomous.ai), the more I read about the chairs being creaky, poppy, and sometimes uncomfortable.

A Casper/Purple/Saatva for office chairs seems ripe for this climate (WFH).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If you want something minimalist I can recommend the HÅG Capisco. It looks a little bit weird, but is really comfy once you get used to it. The chair supports active sitting which means you won't sit in one position for eight hours straight, instead the chair will invite you to move around and try out other seating positions which will inevitably lead to more movement and stronger muscles.

[https://store.flokk.com/us/en-gb/products/hag- capisco?store=...](https://store.flokk.com/us/en-gb/products/hag- capisco?store=auto)

<comment><USER8> I second this recommendation.

HAG Capisco is not cheap, it is an investment (that will hopefully last for at least 10 years). It fixed my chronic neck pain using regular office chairs.

Before buying it, I suggest you go to a retail shop / showroom to try it.

<comment><USER9> They have a 90 day return policy and, if you live near a store (they have one in SF), you can return it to the store easily.

If you do try to return the chair, note that it's a PITA to disassemble.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I know for many of us a chair is a worthwhile long-term investment, but for those of us on a budget, I can recommend the IKEA Markus. It's sturdy, costs less than $200, looks nice, and I routinely sit in it for hours without getting uncomfortable.

I also hear you can get Aerons and other similar chairs for around $300 on Craigslist/FB marketplace when companies are trying to offload them en masse.

<comment><USER11> I prefer the Malkolm over Markus. But mine is falling apart after 4 years. Great chair, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Steelcase Leap. I've had mine for maybe 17 years and it still works perfectly and looks good. I find it far more comfortable that those mesh chars like the Aeron (its main competitor back when I bought it).

They also have fantastic warranties, I had it maybe 12 years when the gas strut failed, the tech drove up from 2 towns away to replace it the next day in my home office.

<comment><AUTHOR> That sounds great, but woof, it is expensive ($1,036 normally, $880 right now for those following along at home). Seeing as I'm hoping to be back in an office a few months from now, I was hoping to ideally spend more in the $100-$300 range.

<comment><USER13> If you're in the Bay Area, you can get them used on CL in that range. That's how I got mine.

<comment><USER14> I am not, but maybe they can be found in Austin too

<comment><USER12> There seem to be a few: [https://austin.craigslist.org/search/fua?query=steelcase+lea...](https://austin.craigslist.org/search/fua?query=steelcase+leap) and [https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/austin/search/?query=st...](https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/austin/search/?query=steelcase%20leap&latitude=30.2677&longitude=-97.7475&radiusKM=65&vertical=C2C&sort=BEST_MATCH)

Look at other local sources as well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> None!

I use a very uncomfy IKEA wooden step to sit on. I've got a standing desk for years and had a treadmill for a while. But those are loud and take up too much space.

You don't WANT to be comfortable. You need to move your body and be forced to stand up as much as you can. Otherwise your body will wither. Every artificial "support" will tell you body it doesn't need to support that part on it's own.

That's true for all walks of life really. Don't be too comfy. Nature will find a way to fuck you over.

<comment><USER16> I don't think being comfortable when you're supposed to be comfortable and be able to focus on other things is a bad thing.

You can be uncomfortable outside of your focus or leisure time and be perfectly healthy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Proud owner of Steelcase Leap V2

I find the Leap more comfortable for sitting long periods of time. The Leap also allows me to sit on one of my legs (I know, not a good idea), while the Aeron makes this impossible. The Leap also has more adjustments for the arms which I move quite often. Regardless of the chair model, take frequent breaks and our back does not made for long sitting!

</comment><comment><USER18> I researched the same thing yesterday. Looking for something that promotes "active sitting". I came up with this list (for the German market). Most are quite pricey (in the 500-1000€ range):

○ Viasit F1 Move

○ Sedus Swing Up

○ Profim Accis Pro

○ Aeris 3Dee

○ Köhl Anteo Up with AirSeat

○ Rovo .. "Ergo Balance" models

YMMV. Bodies are different etc. I'm very interested in hearing about more options as I haven't ordered just yet.

<comment><USER19> The Haider Bioswing series is missing in this list.

<comment><USER18> Thanks. I guess the chairs recommended by AGR are all of interest:

[https://www.agr-ev.de/de/ratgeber- produkte/produkte/2837-akt...](https://www.agr-ev.de/de/ratgeber- produkte/produkte/2837-aktiv-buerostuehle)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Previously on HN: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15733672](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15733672)

</comment><comment><USER21> I've been using the Swopper ([https://www.aeris.de/en/swopper/](https://www.aeris.de/en/swopper/)), a swivel stool which is similar to sitting on an exercise ball. The stool is built on top of a spring fitted shaft, which means you can _bounce_ up and down while sitting. Additionally the shaft is attached to the base with a free swinging joint, meaning that you can rock around 360 degrees.

The whole design rational is about keeping your legs active while you are sitting. In order to sit on the stool, you need to continually balance yourself using your legs and back. I've had a few friend sit down on it, completely unaware of this, and fall off immediately. It can be tiring but really I've gotten use to it and can sit for hours without problems.

The stool has helped _a lot_ with my back pain and improving my posture. I have two versions, one with and without rollers. The one without rollers is nicer to use, as the rollers don't always _lock_ meaning as one is bouncing around the stool base might shift.

Aeris also make a more traditional desk chair based on the same principle, see [https://www.aeris.de/en/3dee/](https://www.aeris.de/en/3dee/).

The price is about $1K for the Swopper, and for me was totally worth it! Also it's built like a tank and weighs 10kg.

</comment><comment><USER22> It's an extremely personal choice. Bodies are different.

The following are somewhat pricey options.

In my opinion the Knoll Regeneration is pretty good.

Hermann Miller chairs are also good, but the Aeron is probably the _least_ ergonomic thing they sell now – and definitely not "minimal". The Setu might fit your criteria.

Just remember, the ideal chair for six hours of sitting doesn't exist; your goal should be to keep changing your body position as much as is feasible.

[https://www.painscience.com/articles/chair- trouble.php](https://www.painscience.com/articles/chair-trouble.php)

</comment><comment><USER23> The best chair varies person to person. There are some good things to try in this thread, but ultimately trying one for a few minutes in a store is not adequate. Buy from somewhere with a good return policy and support.

Years ago I'd tried a Humanscale Freedom. In store it felt great. After a day I was sore. After a week I couldn't sit in it for more than 5 minutes without a fiery pain running up and down my back. Back it went.

I ended up with a Steelcase Think with the mesh back (I liked it was lighter and simpler vs the Leap), and have been using it for 12 years. 7 of those were working from home full time.

In the end what works for me (good chair, fully adjustable thin keyboard tray, height adjustable monitor) may not be right for you. There are no absolutes in ergo. But the guidelines around monitor height, arm angles and positioning, etc are a place to start.

Even with the right chair, take a look at the rest of your setup. Wrist/shoulder pain -- Is your keyboard or mouse position OK? Are you using a wrist rest when you should have none? Shoulder/neck/back pain -- How about your monitor height, do you hunch or lean a lot?

</comment><comment><USER24> Some decent options in this thread, I thought I'd add some general advice, which I could have used in the past.

Firstly, figure out if you want / need a neck rest. This turns out to be important for me, and I would not want a chair that doesn't have one (this point could be expanded with exceptions).

Next, adjustability is key. Some things are standard (backrest angle, height), but many are rarer. For me, being able to adjust the height of the armrest was eye-opening. Without this, you will either slouch in the chair, or hold your elbows in the air, neither of which are ideal.

Lastly, a word about sturdiness and durability. Some chairs start to misbehave as they age, e.g. I once had a cheap office chair which started to "list" slightly. I didn't pay much attention until I noticed frequent cramps on one side of my back, and realised it's because I'm sitting at a few degrees angle to the right.

Overall my advice would be: get the right chair (for you), sit correctly in it, and do plenty of exercise. The best chair in the world doesn't help enough if you sit for 14 hours every day, without any of the latter.

<comment><USER25> Seconded the last point. For me, starting to work out in the gym was a better improvement than just making changes around my desk.

For OP: Personally I don't have a super fancy chair, cost me about 80-100 euro IIRC but don't even know what "brand" it is. Generic office chair :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I use the Variable balans chair from Varier [1]. It is particularly useful to keep your back straight and in a good position. It's also important to place your screen at the correct height to avoid neck pains.

[1] [https://varierchairs.com/product/variable-balans- quickship/](https://varierchairs.com/product/variable-balans-quickship/)

<comment><USER27> I've had a Stokke Duo for 23 years. Varier is a new name for the company and the Duo is a milder version of Varier Gravity Balans [1]. It's been so good that I just recently had it reupholstered. I've tried Gravity and find it excellent as well. With a nudge you can change between four different positions. The positions are quite stable, it's not like a rocking chair.

[1] [https://varierchairs.com/product/gravity/](https://varierchairs.com/product/gravity/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> We got fancy ergonomic chairs when moving offices a few years ago and immediately after the move I developed back pain. I tried adjusting the chair and we even had trained professionals come to help us adjust them, but it didn't seem to work. A coworker of mine had gotten a kneeling chair for his back issues at the same office, but that didn't work for him, so he let me borrow it. I noticed a positive difference immediately. The chair is a Varier Wing Balans and I have been using it at work for several years now.

When we switched to WFH due to the virus, we were unable to take office equipment home aside from necessary hardware which was securely shipped to us. Because of this and because the switch was too sudden for anyone to really be able to prepare their home environments, we got an allowance to buy some home office equipment and many people opted for chairs. The Wing Balans was a bit expensive for me to justify, so instead I got the Varier Variable Balans. Also a kneeling chair, but no adjustable height. Aside from being much cheaper, one thing I love is that it sits on two rocking rails instead of a wheeled base. I am a fidgeter and it lets me rock back and forth as I work. It lets me have just as much flexibility in my sitting position as the Wing Balans at the same time.

The one negative is that it can be quite fiddly to place properly - the Wing Balans single swivel foot does not get in the way of certain table legs as much as these two rails. I also learned that to take full advantage of this chair a height adjustable desk is recommended (which we have at work, but which I do not have at home). For example, if I want to sit on it by putting one or both feet up on the shin rests, my knees hit the underside of my normal-height desk. I've purchased a height-adjustable laptop stand which should be here this week and look forward to using the chair with that setup.

</comment><comment><USER29> Just ordered a Herman Mill Aeron from Crandall. They have a 10% off sale going on. 2 year warranty. It is taken apart, inspected, damaged parts replaced, steam cleaned, new cylinder, and put back together. Free Shipping (both ways if you do not like the chair).

I got bigger cylinder and better casters. Paid around $530 with discount. Could have gotten a used chair off of CraigsList for $350 and taken a chance. To be sure this chair is expensive. My current chair cost $89 and I hate it. This Aeron is hopefully my last chair. I'm old and spend a lot of time contest programming.

Appreciate all the comments people made. Really helped me to make a decision. Shows we are all in this together especially now. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER30> Good for back: [https://www.lifespanfitness.com/workplace/treadmill- desks](https://www.lifespanfitness.com/workplace/treadmill-desks)

I have this one with an electric-height desk (custom built) and switch between chair and treadmill. I would recommend it. However, the treadmill, when not used, is taking a lot of place.

</comment><comment><USER31> 10€ inflatable ball.

I got rid of a chair four years ago, in favour of a large inflatable ball. I got mine from Decathlon (a French sports outlet) for about 10€, I took the XXL size (the largest, maybe it was XL).

I subjectively feel that I have less back pains, I move on the ball all the time (twists, jumps) and when I remember I lay fown with my upper back on the ball and feet on the ground.

One person asked me once to please stop bouncing during a video confrence because he was feeling sea sick. This is to say that one really moves all the time with such a ball.

</comment><comment><USER32> I bought recently from [https://www.be-mydesk.com/16-chaise-de-bureau- professionnell...](https://www.be-mydesk.com/16-chaise-de-bureau- professionnelle)

But unfortunately AFAIK they're only implemented and deliver in France.

I've been using the Polo model [https://www.be-mydesk.com/chaise-de-bureau- professionnelle/1...](https://www.be-mydesk.com/chaise-de-bureau- professionnelle/1890-polo-chaise-de-bureau-lumineuse-assise-confortable-et- support-lombaire.html#/3146-couleur-vert_foret_gris_clair)

And it's just heaven :)

Their chairs are extremely configurable and sturdy but most importantly they are amazingly comfortable.

</comment><comment> salt-licker Modway Articulate is what we have for everyone in our office: [https://www.amazon.com/Modway-Articulate-Ergonomic-Office- Ch...](https://www.amazon.com/Modway-Articulate-Ergonomic-Office- Chair/dp/B006IY89ZA)

At $150 I find it comfortable enough to sit in all day without issue, which is rare even among more expensive chairs I've tried. One of our employees has ergonomic issues and loves it. I really like having the ability to adjust seat tilt and back tilt separately, as well as initial back height. The only downside is the armrests don't go low enough to fit under your desk easily, so we generally leave the armrests off when building them

</comment><comment><USER33> I have a Herman Miller Mirra 2 that I like a lot. But it's very personal, you should go try several out, which in most of the world you can't right now. Higher end chairs also come in multiple sizes, making it even more important to try them out.

<comment><USER34> My favorite thing about the Mirra 2 is how you can set it to follow you when you lean forward, and it still gives good back support.

The worst thing is that it's so comfortable I can sit in it for many hours straight, so I don't get up and move around as much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Late but wanted to chime in.

Although not possible right now, the best way to test chairs is to go to a Design Within Reach (a Herman Miller subsidiary). They employ chair specialists in the showroom who can work with you to find the best chair. People vary a lot and things like seat-pan sizes are not universal. Finding the right chair with the right options takes time.

I went in thinking I would get the Sayl and left with a Mirra 2 due its customizability which enabled full back support and a better seat-pan.

You can spend a whole day their testing the full offering. For instance, the Aeron comes in 3 sizes and without going and testing them you might not know which is best for you!

</comment><comment><USER36> Probably not the answer you want to hear but the best office chair is no chair. I only have a standing desk at home and my back/legs are so much better after 3 weeks of WFH than they have ever been.

<comment><USER37> It surely is not something for everybody.

I'm almost 2m tall so always had back and chair problems so I took the opportunity to switch my desk to a standing one for 4 months with a college who went on a project abroad. It was hell from the first to the last day. Not only was standing problematic, it distracted me so much I got angry and used every opportunity to get away from it and to sit and talk to other colleges in their offices (been told about it at some point because I didn't even realise it).

I'd say if you're not OK with it after 4 months, you probably won't be after 4 years.

I joined a swimming club again. It helped.

<comment><USER38> I'm tall too (190) and found standing very uncomfortable too. I had a standing mat and monitor arms too, and I think it made my mid back pain worse than it was before. I think a lot of ergonomic recommendations are very personal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Speaking as a European, do USians have access to HÅG chairs, or some of the other brands designed by Peter Opsvik? They definitely allow varied sitting positions and have a very high ergonomic track record.

See for instance: [https://store.flokk.com/global/en- gb/products?type=office%20...](https://store.flokk.com/global/en- gb/products?type=office%20chairs)

</comment><comment><USER40> [https://www.staples.com/Tempur-Pedic-Mesh-Computer-and- Desk-...](https://www.staples.com/Tempur-Pedic-Mesh-Computer-and-Desk-Office- Chair-Fixed-Arms-Black-Black-TP7000-RAV-COAL/product_1539761)

$240 right now. I prefer it over the tp9000 because of the lumbar support. Great chair at that price--unbeatable in my opinion.

</comment><comment><USER41> Years ago I have made a bargain deal by buying a used Vitra office chair [https://www.vitra.com/en-us/office](https://www.vitra.com/en-us/office) . Some company got rid of a whole lot of them, and another company refurbished them.

I think adjustable armrests are indespensable for a good office chair.

</comment><comment><USER42> I have the "Remastered" version of the Aeron chair, and I love it. I've been using it for several years and it still feels like new.

It is mesh-based, although not super minimalist.

[https://www.btod.com/blog/aeron-classic-vs- remastered/](https://www.btod.com/blog/aeron-classic-vs-remastered/)

</comment><comment><USER43> An exercise ball, the right one for the height of your desk. I'm tall, at a high fixed desk, so I'm on a 75cm ball. It forces me to wiggle a little, and to straighten my back. They're better than the mesh chairs, and under £40. It's certainly more acceptable for home than the office, though I hope that changes.

</comment><comment><USER44> My GoodForm propeller chair, circa 1958. I bought it at Goodwill for $10, it has lasted years longer than any other office chair in my home office.

The styling is timeless, the construction indestructable. I have had to replace the castors and one of the arms is missing a piece of plastic, but that's not bad for 60 years of service.

</comment><comment><USER45> I got the Steelcase Gesture based on the recommendation from The Wirecutter here: [https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-office- chair/](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-office-chair/) . I like it.

<comment><USER46> My Steelcase Gesture has uneven armrests, after I noticed it I also checked other chairs in the office and almost every one of them has this flaw. It's not much - maybe 0.5cm but it is impossible to adjust it to same level. It's not that much of a problem - after sitting for a while and concentrating on work my mind loses 'awareness' of this problem (or maybe body adjusts? skews?) Another thing is that seat/seat angle is profiled in such way that I have feeling of slowly sliding down over time. Overall chair is sturdy solid etc. but for this price it shouldn't have mentioned flaws. I wouldn't buy it again.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I really like my Autonomous chair ([https://www.autonomous.ai/office- chairs/ergonomic-chair](https://www.autonomous.ai/office-chairs/ergonomic- chair)) - prefer it over Aeron and decently priced at under 400$.

</comment><comment><USER48> Lots of recommendations for the Steelcase Leap here. I've not tried it, but I've been using a Steelcase Think for about 12 years and have found it to be superlative. Can't imagine sitting on anything else for an extended period.

Fwiw I have also tried an Aeron - it wasn't for me at all.

</comment><comment><USER49> Something that isn't too costly, is comfy (thick cushion), designed to last (one of the product design objectives) and blends into a more classic mid century modern environment (Apple style) is the Alefjäll chair from Ikea.

</comment><comment><USER50> I had an old Staples office chair and started having terrible Piriformis pains in my hip - I think it was a broken spring pushing on the hip but who knows.

I kept reading about different chairs, and as many have mentioned, the most important aspect for programmers is to move around and get up from time to time.

I ended up trying a "SONGMICS Standing Desk Chair, Adjustable Height Ergonomic Standing Stool", which I got from Amazon.

Trust me, you won't sit in one position all day, and my butt does get a bit sore when I sit for 2 hours, but after a week the hip issue disappeared, and its been nine months now and I'm satisfied with it.

The one aspect of this particular stool is that it pivots a bit so you can option to shift some weight onto your feet.

Not that I don't dream of a comfy captains chair (I did read and archive this discussion), but its an option you might want to consider.

</comment><comment><USER4> I got a Steelcase Gesture a few years ago, I found a marked down exhibition piece with a few scratches. It's the best office chair I've ever had, but I've never had a Herman Miller, so not sure how they compare.

</comment><comment><USER51> Neutral Posture is worth consideration. I do wish for a better arm support system, like the Aeron. I chose the Neutral Posture, however, because of the way the back support worked. Seating is a very personal thing.

</comment><comment><USER52> Herman Miller Embody is great, but hard to clean (or prepare to pay 25-35% of its price for the service) and looks terrible after 9 years of use. Similar age Aeron looks new, but my back much prefers the Embody.

</comment><comment><USER53> I'm still using my Aeron after 20 years, but the best chair for you is the one with most comfort, the best encouragement of good posture, the best durability and longevity, etc.

</comment><comment><USER54> Steelcase Leap or Humanscale Freedom would by my recommendations.

</comment><comment><USER55> Aeron. Look no further.

<comment><USER56> Wow, didn't realize that these were actually recommended. I have grown to dislike these so much because these chairs are in every company I've worked for. Ugh.

<comment><USER18> That's an odd reason to dislike something. Perhaps they are everywhere for a reason?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> I got a refurbished Hermann Miller Aeron chair for $230 or so after using them at a bunch of client sites for ~5 years. It's been a great purchase.

</comment><comment><USER58> Bought a WorkPro 9000 Quantum from OfficeMax a year ago and it has been my favorite chair (and I used to have an Aeron when I worked in an office).

</comment><comment><USER59> I'm pretty happy with my Herman Miller Celle. And it comes in one size only so you don't have to guess anything.

</comment><comment><USER60> I have used my Ergohuman for about 10 years now in my home office. No complaints. Still looking for an ideal table tho

</comment><comment><USER61> Ergohuman — have had mine for a decade. They have sent me replacement parts for free. Amazing.

</comment><comment><USER62> I have used the same Aeron for 12 years. It's so good that I just never think about it.

</comment><comment><USER63> Ikea järvfjället is a decent option.

</comment><comment><USER64> ikea markus</comment>


Cables Discuss Vast Hacking by a China That Fears the Web - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/05/world/asia/05wikileaks-china.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&hp

<comment><USER2> This article finally adds detail about how the Google hacks were carried out - something I've been waiting for since the first day of cablegate, when it was mentioned that there were cables discussing the event.

<comment><USER3> According to the wikileaks schedule, the raw cables on china are being released tomorrow (sunday).

<comment><USER4> Where is the schedule? I've been looking for something like this.

<comment><USER3> I'm pretty sure it was on cablegate.wikileaks.org the first day of the cable release, but I can't find it anywhere now. It's kind of moot though, as they only had a weeks worth of topics listed through today (sunday).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _The cables indicate that the American government has been fighting a pitched battle with intruders who have been clearly identified as using Chinese- language keyboards and physically located in China._

Does anyone have insight into how keyboard language and physical location get clearly identified? I can't think of how you'd do that reliably.

Keyboard language: can you build timing signatures for how people type on different keyboards? Then set up a keylogger on a known compromised host or a honeypot, watch the intruder type for a while, and match the signature? That seems pretty easily defeatable: do as much as you can via scripts, and if you ever need to type something, pass all your keystrokes through a filter that knows how to mimic each timing signature.

I can't come up with a plausible way to pin down physical location, but I'm sure someone on here has a better working knowledge of that kind of thing than I do.

<comment><USER6> There is no such thing as "Chinese-language keyboards".

Well there used to be some experimental prototypes designed to facilitate inputs, but they never gained any traction. Now it's all standard US keyboards.

But it would be rather easy to know the language based on keyboard input: most likely the typed string will contain more of the user's mother tongue I assume?

<comment><USER7> _Well there used to be some experimental prototypes designed to facilitate inputs, but they never gained any traction. Now it's all standard US keyboards._

This is interesting, and it's a problem I've never really thought about. Can you say more about it?

<comment><USER6> I cannot say much about those prototypes since I only heard about them long time ago and never touched a real one. In fact few people even know about those silly stuff anyway…

Inputting Chinese on a keyboard is hard because of the sheer amount of characters. There is no feasible way to have enough physical keys mapping to even a very limited subset (think 2+k chars as the bottom line).

So the way out is to use Input Method Editor (IME's) to map a sequence of keystrokes on an ordinary US keyboard to a single Chinese character or phrase. Currently in mainland China there are two families of IME's that are in wide use: Pinyin-based and Wubi-based.

Pinyin-based IME's converts Pinyin, basically the sound of Chinese characters in Roman alphabet, to the corresponding chars. This family of IME's is the most popular one because almost any kid born after 70's knows Pinyin, and thus the learning curve to use Pinyin-based IME's is just mastering the keyboard itself. The shortcoming of Pinyin-based IME's is that a single sequence of Pinyin can translate into a lot more chars (1:50 ratio is quite common), and the user has to choose which one is intended. This is considered rather slow and error-prone. Most modern Pinyin-based IME's focus on NLP model to predict the correct chars, and I have to say it is now much much better than 10 years ago.

Wubi-based IME's rely on a formal and rather complicated method to decompose Chinese chars into sub-components based on shape, then map the 26 alphabet keys on a standard US keyboard to these components. The user chooses the correct components to form the characters. The advantage is that a single char requires less than 4 keystrokes to input, which is considerably faster than Pinyin-based IME's which usually require more keystrokes. There is also much much less "hash collisions" in that a keystroke sequence usually maps to only one or two chars, thus no need to manually choose anymore. The downside though, is that the method to decompose chars into components must be memorized, which is very difficult, and the mapping of components on the keyboard must also be familiarized, which is even more confusion. Some keyboards come with extra labeling to help this, much like a typical Japanese keyboard. In addition, I have the feeling that this method is designed for professional typists instead of ordinary users because it is quite counter- intuitive to think how chars are written and then decompose them when you are just chatting with someone. Professional typists, on the other hand, are looking at existing documents and try to input them into a computer, which is quite different from the mental model of chatting.

There are other less used IME's too. For example bank representatives used to use a method that map a 4~5 digit number into a char purely on the numpad because it is considerably faster once you master it. I don't think anyone is using this method anymore though. The learning curve is just insane. Other IME's try to combine both Pinyin and Wubi together with different tradeoffs, but few gain real traction.

In Taiwan and Hongkong there exist different IME's because they use Traditional Chinese which have much more complex strokes than Simplified Chinese used in mainland. Also in Hongkong they speak Cantonese whose pronunciation is different than Mandarin, so normal Pinyin is not used there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm finding the degree to which the political establishment is clueless as to the actual hard technical details of what is happening with this entire episode quite interesting, for example a quote from a recent article on the arab press response to the incident;

 _No one knows the truth of this WikiLeaks thing. Is it plausible that the United States with all its greatness, power and valor, cannot stop WikiLeaks and its millions of documents? Or have these documents been leaked by the Americans themselves to achieve a particular goal? Or has America simply turned a blind eye to the leak?_

China's paranoia and amusing conclusions about the "fundamentally controllable" nature of the web also betray a lack of understanding of how this all really works, and a lot of the US response seems to fail to grasp that the game is already over and wikileaks has already won regardless of any action they take from here on in short of turning off the internet. And even the effectiveness of that is questionable, disregarding the fact that it simply will not happen.

<comment><USER9> The web can be controlled. It's just much harder and expensive to do so.

But what China should be worrying about is whether it can keep controlling the people in general. As the government begins to meet basic human needs, the citizens will start to yearn for higher needs to be satisfied like freedom of information. The government cannot provide that and continue it's authoritarian regime.

<comment><USER10> The web can only be controlled so long as it's a wired affair.

If the concept of a wireless mesh can be realized, it's game over for anything but a silly illusion of control.

<comment><USER11> And if one controls the technology which creates the mesh? ie, requires a back-door into every device?

<comment><USER12> Excellent point. Vintage networking hardware could start to become quite valuable.

<comment><USER13> Assuming it's still compatible with anything else at that point. Honestly, though? With cheap mass storage, we could end up going all the way down to sneakernet.

They really could do a lot more to control the internet. Not fully, of course. It can't ever be fully controlled. But they really could do a lot to put us into an age of digital prohibition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _The cable goes on to quote this person as saying that the hacking of Google "had been coordinated out of the State Council Information Office with the oversight" of Mr. Li and another Politburo member, Zhou Yongkang." Mr. Zhou is China's top security official....But the person cited in the cable said he did not make that claim, and also doubted that Mr. Li directed a hacking attack..._

You can rest assured he also will never be making any further claims or providing further sensitive information to American diplomats. Not after this.

I don't mean that as a good-bad thing. It simply is a statement of how things are -- and how they have changed. Draw your own conclusions.

<comment><USER12> I also found it interesting that the NYT didn't mention his name. If it's listed in the cables, the fact that they left it out would be a rather clear indication of policy.

Makes me wish once again that newspapers were required to provide detailed bibliographies for their stories somewhere.

<comment><USER15> Were they ever really required to do that? That would be amazing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> China's current advantage in "cyber-warfare" is temporary.

As China keeps developing, the internet surface area of its corporations and institutions will be just as vast as the US. And it won't be magically immune to script-kiddies around the world, either.

</comment><comment><USER17> Let's put two and two together folks...

First: Wouldn't the person who leaked the news of the Chinese hacking have a reasonable expectation that his leak would come back to the Chinese _through their hacking_?

Second: Every nation is spying on every other nation all the time and diplomatic communication is one of the first targets. That is why diplomats are ... diplomatic. They know they are always being watched even when they supposedly aren't.

Perhaps Wikileaks got far more than any other nation could expect to get through all the spying that goes on. But I doubt it.

What's out so-far hasn't been especially embarrassing to the US. That could be because the US is all sweetness and light. Or it could be because there's difference between 'secure' and 'secret'. Secure channels for things that shouldn't get out but wouldn't be a disaster to let out.

On the subject of Wikileaks itself, this brings up the point that whatever wikileaks winds up with through "humanitarian" leaking is going to be less than enemies of the US will wind-up through adversarial hacking.

Shouldn't the US public know at least as much about US behavior and motivations as the Chinese Polit Bureau?

<comment><USER18> _Wouldn't the person who leaked the news of the Chinese hacking have a reasonable expectation that his leak would come back to the Chinese through their hacking?_

If the informant believed that the Chinese government had full access to US State Department communications, he forgot to mention it. On the contrary, the NYT article describes a _failed_ phishing attack on State department employees, in what sounds distinctly like a tip-off. That's a few notches down from the movie-caliber pervasive espionage you suppose.

 _Or it could be because there's difference between 'secure' and 'secret'. Secure channels for things that shouldn't get out but wouldn't be a disaster to let out._

You seem to be implying that none of the information made public so far has been secret (or rather, classified "SECRET"). This is false. Most of the cables are unclassified, many are CONFIDENTIAL, and about 5% (IIRC) are SECRET. Those released thusfar are a mixture.

 _whatever wikileaks winds up with through "humanitarian" leaking is going to be less than enemies of the US will wind-up through adversarial hacking_

This is nonsensical, as the two are additive.

<comment><USER17> _If the informant believed that the Chinese government had full access to US State Department communications, he forgot to mention it._

Sure, but there's a difference between what you know to be the case and what you can easily imagine. You know X hacking happened. You can or at least should imagine that Y hacking also can occur.

\-- I should have noted that my other comments were more speculative. Let me know if you've got concrete information to refute my speculation. My "secure" versus "secret" distinction wouldn't necessarily correspond to the bureaucratic classifications used. I'm hardly an expert but even I know that all of sorts of BS can become classified secret.</comment></comment></comment>


Facebook phone rumors resurface: cloud-based, HTC-built? - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/26/facebook-phone-rumors-resurface-cloud-based-htc-built/ <comment><USER2> I don't understand what this would give you that a mobile optimized site, or an app wouldn't. Given that, and Facebook's history of making private data public, rather abruptly (even today, with the news of sponsored checkins), I'd be interested to see how many people are really interested in this.

<comment><USER3> To answer your first question: deep integration. [Hypothetically,] now you can go to someone's facebook page, see your wall-to-wall, message history, and text history. It makes your entire social history easily accessible by unifying the data.

To answer your second question, most people don't care about privacy as much as geeks do. In fact, most people don't care about privacy at all. Though it's tempting to say, "they're all just morons and they'll see soon enough," it's probably also partially the case that we (as geeks) are a little paranoid ourselves. At least that's what comes to mine when I hit someone's home page and see a PGP public key.

Disclaimer: I will eventually be employed there, but it's not like I have any sort of a clue as to whether this is real or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why not? CES saw over 100 tablet launches, most of them Android based. Every big company should make their own Android spin. Even Disney has one:

[http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/17/disney-to-sell-android- ph...](http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/17/disney-to-sell-android-phone-in- japan-apparently-apple-doesnt/)

HTC, Foxconn, and Samsung will build it with your logo on the back; Google will provide the OS updates; and you just need to provide the value add like integration with a popular service whether that's Facebook, MTV, or Disney. Even Barnes and Noble was able to make a nice Android device with its own App Store.

Such a venture could easily pay for itself like Google's Chrome and Android projects did. It's a tough call. No matter what Facebook is reliant on Google and Apple for its mobile future. Then again the easiest path for Facebook (i.e. Android) also ties them even more closely to Google's whims.

</comment><comment><USER5> If FB did come out with a phone, what would their OS be?

Android? Windows X?

Android would be awesome but that would be conceding too much to google.

<comment><USER6> The post says that it would feature tweaked version of Android.

<comment><USER7> You didn't actually expect him to _read_ the article, did you?</comment></comment></comment>


Are We on the Road to Civilisation Collapse? - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20190218-are-we-on-the-road-to-civilisation-collapse <comment><USER2> > Collapse is often quick and greatness provides no immunity. The Roman Empire > covered 4.4 million sq km (1.9 million sq miles) in 390. Five years later, > it had plummeted to 2 million sq km (770,000 sq miles). By 476, the empire's > reach was zero.

And what about _that other empire_? You know, the one that also calls itself the Roman Empire, consider itself Roman citizens, had control of both Rome and Ravenna, and covered 3.9 million sq km in the year 555?

Interesting side-note: Christopher Columbus was already alive by the time _this other empire_ finally went to zero.

<comment><USER3> Are you referring to the Holy Roman Empire ruled by Charlemagne? They weren't strictly the same as the Roman Empire. There's a decent explanation on reddit on the differences. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/124kmx/whats...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/124kmx/whats_the_difference_between_the_roman_empire_and/)

<comment><USER4> > Are you referring to the Holy Roman Empire ruled by Charlemagne?

No, that didn't exist in 555; he's talking about the "Eastern Roman"/"Byzantine" Empire.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Weird article. The eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) went on almost 1000 years longer after Rone fell and this article acts like it was all over in the late 400s.

<comment><USER6> One of the features of language is that many words or phrases have more than one meaning, and people determine which meaning is meant by context. In particular, the phrase "Roman Empire" can mean either Eastern and Western branches, or just the Western one. In this case it is obvious it is the latter that is intended.

However, it is good to bring up Byzantium since so many people are completely unaware that it was the Eastern Roman Empire.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Well written article. I hope the answer is 'no' but we do face some possible existential threats.

I think that empires eventually expiring is natural: when a large fraction of citizens feel complacent and stop producing and as power becomes centralized and corrupt, it makes sense that a civilization/empire will expire.

<comment><USER8> The article equates empire with civilisations, but that's not entirely correct. Sometimes the collapse of an empire coincides with the collapse of a civilisation (like the Western Roman Empire), but sometimes it doesn't (HRE, Austrian, British). In fact most European empires' collapse haven't hurt European civilisation in any way, because these empires didn't dominate the continent and had lots of contact with surrounding countries.

So will modern western civilisation collapse? There's certainly a number of red flags. Not just the rising inequality and oligarchy in the US. More worrying to me is the rise of authoritarianism, decreased trust in democracy, and decreased commitment and understanding of our rights and values.

Authoritarianism is on the rise all over the world. China will inevitably overtake the US as the most powerful economy at some point in the future, and China is deeply committed to remaining unfree: no free expression, press or elections. Russia's democratic revolution after Gorbachev and Yeltsin seems to have failed with Putin. The Arab Spring only really succeeded in Tunis; the other Arab countries just ended up with either their old or a new dictator, or otherwise became violent and unstable. South America seemed to become more democratic, but is getting more authoritarian again in Brazil and Venezuela.

And most importantly, the US and the EU themselves are struggling with authoritarianism from within: Trump and his supporters, Hungary, but EU technocracy doesn't exactly inspire confidence either.

I do think that these are developments we need to turn around. Lately I've started to fear that maybe these past few centuries of enlightenment may have been a fluke.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> So the Roman Empire collapsed. Big deal. All the land is still there. Italy is there and still gorgeous and largely functional. Rome is there and still a great place.

The British Empire basically collapsed. The Pound has retained its value the whole time. It's still a first world country.

<comment><USER10> I think you'll find the value of the pound has plummeted in the last century, during the decline of empire, decoupling from the gold standard, inflation of the 70s, printing during QE and the BRexit vote.

Since 1900 the GBP price of gold has risen 250x, from 4.25 to over 1,000 today.

[https://www.chards.co.uk/gold-price/price-of- gold](https://www.chards.co.uk/gold-price/price-of-gold)

<comment><USER11> Correct me if I'm wrong, but that stat seems pretty meaningless if they aren't controlling for inflation

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> For me, civilisation collapse is like the Bronze Age Collapse when multiple civilisations fall due to a multitude of factors.

Not just a big empire fading away.

</comment><comment><USER13> No.

</comment><comment><USER14> According to Betteridge's Law of Headlines, no.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines)</comment>


Swiss Post E-Voting Source Code - <AUTHOR> https://gitlab.com/fickdiepost/evoting-solution <comment><USER2> From the "Quality Goals" in the Software Architecture PDF:

"Scytl sVote should fulfil for instance the following quality standards (not exhaustive):

• Scalability.

• Accessibility and responsiveness.

• Data separation.

• Universal verifiability and individual verifiability.

• Performance efficiency."

Worrying that anonymity and security is not mentioned, but "responsiveness" is.

<comment><USER2> It also seems from a cursory look that they have rolled their own crypto[1]- and math[2]-lib

[1] [https://gitlab.com/fickdiepost/evoting- solution/tree/master/...](https://gitlab.com/fickdiepost/evoting- solution/tree/master/source-code/scytl-cryptolib) [2] [https://gitlab.com/fickdiepost/evoting- solution/tree/master/...](https://gitlab.com/fickdiepost/evoting- solution/tree/master/source-code/scytl-math)</comment></comment>


Microsoft to drop 'Metro' name for Windows 8 - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19108952

<comment><USER2> But this is also pretty common for them. They usually have some kind of code name for their projects that eventually gets dropped in the release version.</comment>


Ask HN: Domain registration by proxy. - <AUTHOR>

Can anyone recommend a good proxy domain registration service that I can use so that my contact information is not accessible via WHOIS.
In particular does anyone have any good or bad experience with these guys: http://www.domainsbyproxy.com/
Thanks. <comment><USER2> Namecheap offers whois protection for free. Domainsbyproxy is GoDaddy, AFAIK.</comment>


It appears Apple may be unable to recover data from failed 2018 MacBook Pros - <AUTHOR> https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/22/2018-macbook-pro-lacks-data-recovery-port/ <comment><USER2> The summary here is the T2 chip provides custom hardware encryption for the SSD, which makes recovery impossible (and so they removed the data recovery port because what's the point in having it?).

So remember, backups are important!

<comment><USER3> Also a reminder that apple really does seem to care about privacy, in ways the average user isn't likely to understand / appreciate.

<comment><USER4> The T2 chip for what I understand it's a proprietary CPU that executes proprietary software, how can you consider that secure ? It's not different from the Intel ME in that sense, just another secondary processor that have access to all the hardware on the computer and that runs code that the user cannot control.

Also for a security prospective it's not good, the main principle of cryptography is that the only secret to decrypt something should reside in the user, not in the obscurity of the algorithm or the hardware, so a perfect encryption is an encryption where when you turn on you laptop you have to insert a 30 character strong password that only you know, like LUKS on Linux, no obscure hardware, no proprietary software. The laptop broke, take out the SSD, put it in another Linux computer, insert you secret password, and recover the data.

This system is NOT secure, if someone finds a flaw that permits to extract the key from the T2 chip, and it's only a matter of time and resources before someone does it, your data is no more protected, they can decrypt and extract what they want. We must not consider secure every encryption system that doesn't depend on a secret that only the user knows.

<comment><USER5> > This system is NOT secure

Let me tell you a secret, there is nothing truly secure in the world. Only things which haven't had a vulnerability found for it.

> It's not different from the Intel ME

The important sense that matters is Intel ME has been found vulnerable (highly vulnerable in fact). The T2 hasn't. Should we be skeptical of black boxes, most assuredly! But calling it equivalent to something found to be flawed in serious ways is a bit premature at best, or grossly negligent at worse.

> the main principle of cryptography is that the only secret to decrypt > something should reside in the user

I don't know about you, but the "main principle of cryptography" is to _prevent unauthorized parties from knowing the contents of the data_ to me. I guess we are allowed to make up any statement that furthers our cause though when that suits us.

> if someone finds a flaw that permits to extract the key from the T2 chip, > and it's only a matter of time and resources before someone does it, your > data is no more protected, they can decrypt and extract what they want

Your password is part of the process, the extra stuff done in the T2 is just that, extra. So _extracting from the T2_ gives you nothing without the user's password, needed to unlock the secret encryption key for the drive (assuming FileVault is enabled[0], and if you didn't enable it, then why do you have an expectation of security at all?).

[0] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208344](https://support.apple.com/en- us/HT208344)

<comment><USER6> >Let me tell you a secret, there is nothing truly secure in the world.

My VCR is pretty secure. CRT monitor, too. Even my headphones are nicely secure.

>The important sense that matters is Intel ME has been found vulnerable (highly vulnerable in fact). The T2 hasn't.

There's your fallacy. Just because the T2 hasn't doesn't mean it can't or won't. You even just said it. 'Only things which haven't had a vulnerability found for it.'. The problem is that proprietary embedded hardware of a dynamic nature leads to irreversible possibilities of exploitation at a hardware level. ME is a very, very good reason to not trust.

>I don't know about you, but the "main principle of cryptography" is to prevent unauthorized parties from knowing the contents of the data to me.

Cryptography is not about obfuscation layers on top of cryptography. Cryptographic security is a math, not a logic. Anything further is about hiding intentions making the cost of entry to finding exploitation higher. The cost of entry makes it hard for white hats to find exploits before the market does.

>Your password is part of the process, the extra stuff done in the T2 is just that, extra.

Or is it? Have you looked at the firmware? you nor I can, so you cannot claim what it's actually doing. But we do know that it's a proprietary chip capable of lots of fun.

Also user passwords are trivial to get, and there's always the possibility that the chip is storing the user password itself. Again, can't know, that's up for the black hats now.

<comment><USER7> A long time ago, I was told a story by a Navy Radioman--a specialty which no longer exists. As a demonstration of TEMPEST, someone parked a van at the end of a pier and after a few hours presented to the crew of the ship a log of everything that had been done electronically on the ship. Not just the transmitted traffic, either, but things that they had apparently been able to construct from the CRT displays in use at the time. At a distance.

I don't think your VCR, CRT monitor, or headphones are nearly as secure as you think they are. You might not care about their vulnerability to a sufficiently-motivated actor, but someone else might.

<comment><USER8> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking):

 _"In the paper, Van Eck reports that in February 1985 a successful test of this concept was carried out with the cooperation of the BBC. Using a van filled with electronic equipment and equipped with a VHF antenna array, they were able to eavesdrop from a "large distance". There is no evidence that the BBC's TV detector vans actually used this technology, although the BBC will not reveal whether or not they are a hoax.

Van Eck phreaking and protecting a CRT display from it was demonstrated on an episode of Tech TV's The Screen Savers on December 18, 2003."_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What people critizing this seem to miss is that it's exactly the same situation as for SSDs which include hardware full disk encryption (FDE):

If the processor inside the SSD responsible for encryption/decryption breaks, you can't recover the data as well anymore.

What would be the processor inside the SSD is the T2 chip in the current MBP's. It even exposes the same interface (NVMe) to the rest of the system as the processor of an SSD does.

The only differences are that the T2 chip has some additional responsibilities in addition to handle the storage and its encryption and that the die with the T2 chip and the flash chips is larger (as it's the motherboard) and might not be as sealed against environmental impacts as the one of an SSD (which could be a higher risk of failure).

<comment><USER10> If I'm understanding the article correctly, they can't recover users' data even if both the T2 chip and the NVMe storage are working - the entire laptop needs to be functional in order for them to get data off. Any failure of any important mainboard component leads to complete data loss.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Ironically (is that the correct usage?) this actually makes it appealing to me.

Whenever I take a laptop in to be serviced, I always remove the hard drive and replace it with an old one that has a new Linux or Windows install on it.

This is mainly for privacy reasons.

When I got my MBP, I knew you couldn't do that, so I basically used it as a thin client, storing all my data elsewhere. However, I was still uncomfortable when I did need to turn it in for servicing, that I spent extra time and formatted it beforehand.

And yes, I encrypt all the drives, but I've heard of instances where the tech will ask for passwords.

<comment><USER12> _> I've heard of instances where the tech will ask for passwords._

I've experienced this at the Apple Store when taking a Mac in for repairs. They refused to fix it if I didn't give them the password, even though it was under warranty. There's even a dedicated field for typing in your login password on the iPads the Apple Genius gives to you when submitting your Mac for a repair.

<comment><USER13> When I took my MacBook Air in for repair with a UEFI password, they carried out the whole repair and just asked me to type my password when I arrived to collect it and ran a diagnostic on the machine to verify the computer was working. You shouldn't need to tell/give an Apple Genius your password.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I always consider any lap/desk top device as 'disposable'; when I am 'connected', my auto-saves and final saves are synced to online storage, and if I am out-and-about, I can double-save to an encrypted usb memory stick or a locker on my phone.

<comment><USER15> > I always consider any lap/desk top device as 'disposable

An MBP is a mighty expensive disposable.

<comment><USER16> Well if you were needing the recovery feature of older models you were already in an expensive situation...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Well, yet another reason to stick with the older macbooks: you can always put your SSD in another Macbook and unlock the FileVault encryption. Timemachine is nice, unless you're dealing with gigabyte-sized files... be it Photoshop, AfterEffects or whatever.

</comment><comment><USER18> So, hang on, did they used to be able to bypass the disk encryption? Surely they just moved it block for block?

<comment><USER19> Accessing the data does not mean decrypting it. I'm just guessing here but they probably had to rely on the client's password after they had access to the data.

<comment><USER20> And presumably that no longer works, because only the T2 chip on the logic board can decrypt the data. Dumping the raw contents of the SSD is now pointless.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> That's the cost of hw encryption and the reason why I'm using LUKS.

<comment><USER22> How about LUKS on top of hardware encryption?

<comment><USER23> > How about LUKS on top of hardware encryption?

I don't understand what you're trying to achieve or what you think the parent was trying to achieve either.

Parent is saying they _don 't_ use hardware encryption because it makes recovery impossible. With LUKS I can throw the disk into any PC that has a port for it, boot from a linux USB and get my data.

If I'm using _both_ , then I get the worst of both worlds! It's slower and I'm using more CPU, yet if the worst happens I still can't get my data back as the hardware encryption still scuppers me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> While I welcome the privacy implications of this, I don't see why recovery wouldn't be possible if the T2 chip and the SSD is intact?

<comment><USER20> In that case, target disk mode presumably works and you don't need a special recovery port?

<comment><USER25> T2 and SSD can be intact and other stuff in the motherboard may be fried. Would target mode work in that case?

<comment><USER20> I guess it depends on what exactly is "fried"? I assume that the CPU is needed for target disk mode, but maybe a faulty GPU wouldn't matter?

But to be honest I have no idea -- I'm a software developer and I know very little about hardware.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Another HN thread where valid complaints get downvoted. That's why this is a toxic board; we can't have adult conversations here.

Most people want their data protected or recoverable. Most want a computer with a variety of ports, specifically for our existing peripherals. Most don't care about a MILLIMETER of thickness, it's not worth it.

Online syncing is not a solution to everything. Shame we can't discuss the issues here.

<comment><USER27> Of course we can discuss it but if you passionately throw around opinions like "most people want" as if they were facts without reference to supporting evidence then people will probably vote you down.

You're also making the strawman argument that removing the recovery port was done to save millimetres of thickness and that's clearly false because the 2018 laptop is the same size as the 2016-2017 MacBook Pro which includes the port.

For the record I'm not convinced by the current Apple lineup so I haven't upgraded but that is a different discussion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> They can't on the 2015 , 2016 , 2107 macbook's either. Tbh Apple have gone down the shitter in the last few years.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'll say that these are no longer "Pro" devices.

<comment><USER30> Arguably losing data from the laptop is more of a consumer issue.

"Pro" users will be more inclined to have a workflow to mitigate hardware failure.

<comment><USER31> It should not be up to the user to mitigate flawed hardware design

<comment><USER22> It looks like excellent design, encryption is working even against Apple as an "attacker". Right?

<comment><USER32> It's a specious reason, and disengenous dissembly. There's nothing about encryption that precludes low-level duplication.

This just something "you don't need" because they would rather shave another millimeter of the width, for the larger and more lucrative fashion-focused part of their customerbase.

<comment><USER33> What? This isn't about the size of the laptop. The 2018 model is the same size.

The T2 chip on the logic board contains the decryption key for the SSD. Therefore, if the logic board breaks (and thus the T2), the data are irrecoverable.

The design choice was either software encryption and data exfiltration port or hardware encryption and no port. They chose to add hardware encryption, so no port.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


P&L plan for investors from unit economics - <AUTHOR> Hi, everyone!
I've made new type generation on P&L plan from unit economics. You will need only prepare unit economics for two cohort: for the first month and for the last month of the plan.
All other works will be end by automatic service, using Theory of Constrains by Goldratt.
You can share you P&L, example – https://uecalc.com/p19dd636af-34c9-464d-a00c-1b254c661e1f <comment><USER2> The key Idea of service is great. Interpolation extremely simplifies economic calculations. I've thrown my excel sheets )

</comment><comment><USER3> interesting idea. and not a bad implementation. in my opinion, it can save a lot of time on the manual preparation of such data and explain the format to each of the participants in the process (both internal and external).

</comment><comment><USER4> It's useful enough. Nice service =)

</comment><comment><USER5> Extremely useful thing. Thanks

</comment><comment><USER6> It helps me with my startup!

</comment><comment><USER7> Thats awesome!</comment>


Safety features that would make vehicles far less lethal to pedestrians exist - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-08-12/why-are-cars-still-so-dangerous-to-pedestrians <comment><USER2> Even as someone avid about automotive safety, there is no way I could trust an automated system that's in charge of doing something like inhibiting a trigger discharge, actuating the car brakes, controlling steering, etc. It's extremely damaging in the case where there is a bug, for instance consider what happens if you're on the highway in front of a 16 wheeler and the brakes slam themselves on.

This is all about reduction of complexity. Humans like having things simple and understandable; things like cars have already grown to stretch the limits of what we can represent with a mental model. There are still times when my car does something that makes me think, "man, how many lines of code are running in this thing?" or, to formulate it another way, "oh, this car really is magic after all." And it's a 2012 Focus, not even a newer or particularly featureful car. That's not a healthy situation for an item that is life vs. death.

<comment><USER3> Big problem with new cars is the airbag in the A Pillar creates a blind spot that hides pedestrians. That said the safest car is one that isn't driven. Meaning better public transportation is a better solution.</comment></comment>


Frosted glass effect with CSS and SVG - <AUTHOR> http://codepen.io/Matori/pen/JFzok

<comment><USER2> Looks nice, but I really love the Google Font API trick there; I did not know that by using the text querystring, you can build a custom font with just the letters you need :)

<comment><USER3> [https://developers.google.com/fonts/docs/getting_started#Opt...](https://developers.google.com/fonts/docs/getting_started#Optimizing_Requests)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Relevant line / explanation: two backgrounds, top layer is a gaussian blur inside SVG, second one is the image that will be blurred.

        background-image: url("data:image/svg+xml,%3C%3Fxml%20version%3D%221.0%22%20encoding%3D%22UTF-8%22%3F%3E%3Csvg%20xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg%22%20xmlns%3Axlink%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxlink%22%20version%3D%221.1%22%20width%3D%221920%22%20height%3D%221120%22%3E%3Cdefs%3E%3Cfilter%20id%3D%22blur%22%3E%3CfeGaussianBlur%20stdDeviation%3D%225%22%2F%3E%3C%2Ffilter%3E%3C%2Fdefs%3E%3Cimage%20xlink%3Ahref%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fplacekitten.com%2F1920%2F1120%22%20width%3D%221920%22%20height%3D%221120%22%20filter%3D%22url%28%23blur%29%22%2F%3E%3C%2Fsvg%3E"), url("http://placekitten.com/1920/1120");

<comment><USER5> and this is the unescaped/indented version of the SVG in the data-URL.

(figured that, after I decoded it, might as well post it for everyone, couldn't make heads or tails of that side-scrolling oneliner :) it's not very complex an sich but it nicely shows how simple it is to wrap an image in a SVG for filtering/other purposes)

        <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
        <svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink" version="1.1" width="1920" height="1120">
            <defs>
                <filter id="blur">
                    <feGaussianBlur stdDeviation="5"/>
                </filter>
            </defs>
            <image xlink:href="http://placekitten.com/1920/1120" width="1920" height="1120" filter="url(#blur)"/>
        </svg>

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've seen this a bunch of places, until it's done real time with arbitrary images + content, I don't really see the value.

Would be cool if we could do it for translucent toolbar etc.

<comment><USER7> How about this? [http://petehunt.github.io/react-iphone- photos/#glass](http://petehunt.github.io/react-iphone-photos/#glass)

<comment><USER8> Any reason why it's only available for iPhone 5?

<comment><USER7> Three reasons.

1\. Blur filter is only available on WebKit 2\. I know for sure how much texture memory is on an iPhone 5 3\. The touch event latency on android is too damn high.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Awesome demo, but unfortunately rather slow on my (oldish) Macbook.

I also recently made a page with frosted glass effect, but opted for pre- rendered images because of those performance issues: [https://eggerapps.at/pgcommander/fancy- index.html](https://eggerapps.at/pgcommander/fancy-index.html) (But I decided the effect was too playful for my website and so it's not public)

<comment><USER10> How "oldish" is your Macbook? I'm using a core2duo and didn't have any problems.

In fact, retrieving an image from Placekitten took the longest on the network, followed by the overhead of loading a Google font. The only real CPU time spent on this page is the overhead of codepen.

Are you mistaking network latency for performance issues with the example?

<comment><USER11> I'm also on a core2duo, but I found it slow. It loaded and rendered quickly, but when I resized the preview window (the ability to resize being the main point of doing it this way, I assume), it was very choppy.

<comment><USER10> Browser versions are important. Do you mind pasting a profile from your debugging tool of choice?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There is still one problem with using the blur filter in CSS. It's all about the edges.

As you increase the blur the edges shrink inwards. This makes it difficult to get a frosted glass effect with more blur. Try setting a higher blur, eg:

       -webkit-filter: blur(20px);
       filter: blur(20px);

<comment><USER13> A workaround would be to wrap the blur layer in another one with overflow:hidden and extend the edges of the inner one. I wonder if that would do the trick.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Blur is really slow, esp. when you're trying to animate it (to get a cool "materialization" effect).

<comment><USER15> Thought of a way to do a materialization effect with good performance. Fake it. If you set a low opacity on the blurred element (ie, put "opacity: 0.5" on the ".glass::before", essentially mixing the blurred image with the sharp one beneath it), this actually looks like it's half as blurred as before.

Opacity can be animated very cheaply, entirely on the GPU (source: [http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/high- performanc...](http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/speed/high-performance- animations/)), so if you animate this property from 1 to 0, you should a good materialization effect, without ever asking the CPU to recalculate the blur.

I'm going to fork the codepen and try this, will report back...

EDIT: see [http://codepen.io/callumlocke/pen/EKuvs](http://codepen.io/callumlocke/pen/EKuvs)

<comment><USER16> For me (latest Firefox beta, on Windows 7) your materialization effect animates at about 2Hz.

[EDITED to fix a stupid mistake: I wrote 0.5Hz but meant once per 0.5s, or 2Hz.]

<comment><USER15> Weird. It works pretty smoothly on Chrome (about 50Hz). Just tried on FF/Mac, it's ultra slow there too. I think it must be redrawing the SVG every frame, if it's that slow. But in the HTML5Rocks tutorial Paul Irish says "Chrome, Firefox, Safari and Opera all hardware accelerate transforms and opacity." I'll try a few more things.

EDIT: ha, IE10/Win7 (in a VM) is super smooth for me. Still no idea what's going on with Firefox.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Really cool effect. Great way to get it without resorting to images.

In the future, I wonder if something like this could be done with the -filter attributes, though those may only work on images. I know those have been used to do blurring before, though possibly not in the same way.

<comment><USER18> Try adding -webkit-filter: blur(5px) to the body tag of a document. It'll blur anything, not just images.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Ah, I implemented frosted glass years ago in SVG using the BackgroundImage source for a feGaussianBlur (composed with other filters, of course). It works fairly well in Inkscape and other such tools, but alas! No browsers supported it and I believe that it is still the case that no browsers support it.

Of course, there are security implications, but those are fairly trivial given the infrastructure already in place.

</comment><comment><USER20> can someone explain what magic is going on inside ".glass::before" with the background image and svg filter?

<comment><USER15> There isn't actually as much magic as I first thought. The SVG (which is loaded via data URI) actually loads the same cat image again, and blurs it. (The cat URL is hardcoded into that SVG string in the data URI). So you have to know the image URL in advance, and generate a data URI for an SVG that contains it. Therefore this wouldn't work as a CSS-only technique if you wanted a dynamic image URL - you'd need JavaScript for that.

Tip: you can copy the whole data URI into your browser's location bar it will load the SVG. Then you can open devtools and inspect it to see what's going on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> That's one heck of a cute cat!</comment>


Hot charts with new html5 visualization engine (free) - <AUTHOR> http://www.reportgrid.com/charts/

<comment><USER2> (free) unless you want to use it in your SaaS (where SaaS = any website with paid accounts) in which case it's $5000. Ouch.

You should by all means charge for it, and if people want to pay $5000 for the SaaS license then definitely charge that much. But in my experience if you have a focus on graphing you're just going to outgrow these libraries, using them forever requires too many compromises while replacing them with your own or open source becomes increasingly viable. And if charts are just a supplement to your main focus there's a _ton_ of free and foss alternatives out there.

Also it's a massive turnoff that you have to load the code from your website.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> The branded version is free for all cases (even OEM), and you can download the JS if you want (although you won't get updates & bug fixes).</comment>


A Note on 'Non-Secret Encryption' - <AUTHOR> https://www.gchq.gov.uk/note-non-secret-encryption <comment><USER2> Newbie here. How is possible encription without sharing keys? Any example?</comment>


Should Colleges Require Coding Tests for Admission? - <AUTHOR> http://madebyknight.com/coding-tests-admission/

<comment><USER2> It should be an alternative way to gain admission. If you can demostrate you know the maths you need to program and document it then I'd say thats as good as you need to prove to gain admission. But I have absolutly no say in changing things, though initiative is always worth it.</comment>


'Domains by Proxy' Hands Over Personal Details of "Pirate" Site Owner - <AUTHOR> http://torrentfreak.com/domains-proxy-hands-personal-details-pirate-site-owner-140307/

<comment><USER2>
        The domain privacy service, which is owned by GoDaddy founder Bob Parsons

There's your problem</comment>


Ask HN: Can I get some help for a potential options financing product - <AUTHOR> I am looking into building a product that will finance options for startup employees in exchange for some of the profit during a liquidation event.
You will not be expected to pay anything if the company goes under. You will only pay a cut of your profit if there is a liquidation event.
I am collecting data to validate my hypothesis that this will be a win-win situation (e.g. you will save a lot of money due to taxes if you exercise early) for both the company and the customers of the company. If you could fill out the form here: https://airtable.com/shrebenwVzaeFzols, I would really appreciate it.
Thank you for taking the time out of your day to fill this out. Any feedback is welcome. <comment><USER2> When you say "you will not be expected to pay anything if the company goes under", did you miss "but consult a tax advisor" or were you accurate?

I ask because I entertained the possibility of accepting a similar deal in the past, with a company that was offering a loan covering exercising and AMT costs in exchange for ~50% of the equity upside, with "no downside" for me (they would implement this by forgiving the loan). However, it turns out that a forgiven loan is a very much taxable event for the IRS, so in the worst case I would still have had to pay significant money (e.g. 30-40% of my forgiven loan, since the forgiveness is taxed as regular income).

After crunching some numbers, I decided to come up with the exercise and AMT money upfront myself. Hadn't been for the loan forgiveness taxation, I would have probably taken the deal, so if your idea is able to fix this, you might be on to something.

<comment><AUTHOR> Very good point, will look into this.

Thanks for bringing it up!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Finding Meaningful Work? - <AUTHOR> I saw this post the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22398118
> Because "hard technical problems" wasn't my root goal—my root goal was to use my skills to get the most possible leverage on improving the world.
It got me thinking. I wish it were easier to find problems where I can use my skillset to improve the world. It's not like I'm turning down the world-improving jobs in favor of the unimportant ones. Generally I never even see meaningful jobs, and the best I can do is avoid the 60% that actively harm the world in some small way.
I feel like there should be a forum or online community of some kind for matching up programmers with meaningful problems that need solving. Whether that means paying jobs, or even just charity work.
Anybody know of something like this? <comment><USER3> It's a good question - and one that hopefully more and more people will start asking.

The problem with a forum (or any kind of announcement system) for this is that the people who want your skills most and who can afford it will be the loudest voices (or will pay for the loudest and most convincing voices to broadcast their job offerings).

It's possible to take another approach though - consider it like a search problem.

Start with the kinds of projects you'd like to work on, and then try to find the companies and projects that match those by searching HN's archives, GitHub projects, Google search.

I think people in general tend to get used to the existing career funnels (job search sites where you enter your profile; LinkedIn; or looking at big-name company job listings). There's a lot more out there though.

<comment><AUTHOR> > the people who want your skills most and who can afford it will be the > loudest voices

Personally I'm looking even for just volunteer stuff. A local charity where I can spend 5-10 hours a week helping maintain their website, or a weekend or two building out a business process tool that makes them more efficient. That sort of thing.

The problem is I don't see this stuff very often on HN either, and on GitHub what you mostly see are highly generic, pure-tech solutions. These may indirectly help a nonprofit down the line, but usually at several levels of abstraction. Most of the SE work out there is getting hands-on with one specific organization's problems. Even if off-the-shelf components are a part of the solution, you still need someone technical at the end of the chain to actually utilize most of those, certainly the kind you'd find on GitHub.

<comment><USER3> Volunteering sounds like a great way to spend some time, yep. Are there any local (city/regional) volunteer mailing lists or websites you might be able to find?

I've often wondered whether the foundational documents & infrastructure of organizations could be, by default, hosted in public source control as text- files / basic markup.

Technology is still a bit too alien for most people I'd guess - <USER2> literacy (and, frankly, software simplicity) still has a way to go. And there's a fear of developing and making mistakes in the open.

But if every organization had infrastructure developed via code -- even if what they actually achieve as a group has a strong basis in the real world -- that'd make it a lot easier for developers like us to contribute back.

Until then, volunteering time and expertise locally sounds good :)

Would be great to hear if you find any useful sites / communities for this.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm thinking about building one, honestly. Probably local to my city. Reaching out directly to organizations and listing their current needs. Maybe later I'd add a form they could submit to post new needs or take down ones that are out of date.

<comment><USER3> Good luck!

I just discovered [https://app.code4socialgood.org/](https://app.code4socialgood.org/) as well which might be of interest to you.

Their codebase is available at [https://github.com/Code4SocialGood/c4sg- web](https://github.com/Code4SocialGood/c4sg-web)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Facebook users in Romania see content related to street protests reviewed - <AUTHOR> http://www.business-review.eu/news/certain-facebook-users-in-romania-see-content-related-to-street-protests-reviewed-under-community-standards-153255 <comment><USER2> Comments moved to [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15790687](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15790687). This was a hard tie to break but the other one was posted earlier, so we'll go with that.</comment>


Great MIPS chips of the past 30 years - <AUTHOR> http://www.alexvoica.com/great-mips-chips-of-the-past-30-years/ <comment><USER2> Unless you were doing 3D graphics, SGI computers of the 1990s were overpriced. At my first startup in 1997 we benchmarked SGI and Suns against PCs of the time, and found white-box PCs offered a clear 3 x price/performance advantage. So we kitted out our test network and datacenter with racks of white-box PCs (literally desktop PCs, not even server hardware).

I still have no idea what the advantage of Sun hardware was supposed to be, except some people were locked in, either by software or some kind of Stockholm syndrome.

Edit: Photo of our test network: [http://oirase.annexia.org/tmp/testbed.jpg](http://oirase.annexia.org/tmp/testbed.jpg)

<comment><USER3> We've been told that the 1988 Sun 386i was quite successful due to its ability to run MS-DOS, and that the Sun 486i was canceled in 1990 because it was faster than the in-house SPARC equivalents. But it took some time for Intel machines to be competitive "big iron", say starting in the 486 days? Including running a serious UNIX(TM) or Linux. ADDED: and serious I/O, we needed EISA and then PCI and its descendants.

So by 1997 Sun and SGI had first mover advantages, but neither being well run companies they squandered them even before counting Intel's general excellence in microarchitectures and fabrication. (Plus wasn't SPARC hard to make fast due to an architectural mistake?)

One other problem SGI had, their IRIX was a notorious nightmare, which is part of their not being a well run company. Sun also lost more than a little momentum when they switched from BSD to ATT UNIX(TM), and did brain dead marketing where they boasted their UNIX(TM) was less buggy than Windows NT at a time when that simply wasn't true (and if I recall that was at a time they were too often refusing to fix some bugs).

A thesis I've just developed here is that the switch to commodity Intel hardware decoupled hardware and software, they helped you avoid getting locked into a single vendor's mistakes (and AMD helped when Intel faltered in several ways). And open source software provided you many mechanisms to get your critical bugs fixed.

<comment><USER4> How did the management at two successful companies that had delivered great products for a long period of time get so shitty so fast?

<comment><USER5> By trying to beat MicroSoft rather than servicing customer needs.

<comment><USER3> That would be Sun, right? Particularly Scott McNealy: [https://www.google.com/search?q=scott+mcnealy+microsoft](https://www.google.com/search?q=scott+mcnealy+microsoft) (not needed SGI's special sauces, almost all my direct experience here is with Sun and DEC).

In addition, the two biggest and interlocked problems with them that I know of are their ruining their reputation in enterprise space when they messed up an off-CPU chip cache design, required customers to sign NDAs before they would try to fix it, and then blamed the customers and the supplier of the SRAM chips for their non-fault tolerant design. Instead of, you know, the IBM ethos of fixing the customer's problem.

Related, in terms of zapping the other channels of sales that might have saved them, was a total internal sales focus on enterprise sales. If you weren't making enterprise sized purchases, several million dollars worth, you were sent to a 3rd party like a VAR, but they typically wouldn't give you the time of day, they certainly were difficult to deal with when I worked with companies that bought one or two Sun workstations. Adding a web site that allowed direct purchases mostly added salt to the wound.

What this meant was that startups that needed more Sun kit than they could charge to a credit card on that web site were forced to go with Dell, who's machines weren't as good, but had the strange property of being willing and able to sell them (HP's sales operation was too screwed up at the time to be a big player here). So a bunch of companies learned how to make do with Dell servers, and the successful ones never looked at Sun when they got big enough. So they missed out on the big post dot.com sales.

A final straw when they started struggling was reducing the quality of their systems, e.g. saving one chip on a motherboard by using a chipset Marvel controller instead of the well tested and trusted Intel one. And I read that Joylent stopped buying Sun hardware when they started silently changing the lights out hardware they were shipping in their systems (IPMI or the like).

<comment><USER6> > their ruining their reputation in enterprise space when they messed up an > off-CPU chip cache design

Yeah, that one was a huge. Sourcing those cache chips from IBM, and just trusting them not to knowingly supply ones that emit radioactive radiation was such an amateur move.

[http://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/computer- hardwa...](http://www.computerworld.com/article/2585216/computer- hardware/mcnealy-blames-ibm-for-sun-s-server-memory-flaws.html) [http://web.archive.org/web/20020202013942/http://www.compute...](http://web.archive.org/web/20020202013942/http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO66102,00.html)

<comment><USER3> It's inevitable, the only question is at what rate the materials in your chips will emit them, and what are the consequences. Smart companies spend a little extra for parity/EEC, they don't blame their customers for machine room environmental non-optimality unless they're _really_ sure that's the problem. He also didn't deny the "sign the NDA if you want us to (pretend to) address the problem".

Bottom line, he and Sun didn't own the problem, didn't take care of their customers until too much bad PR was generated, and again dealt with it at least as much as a PR problem for Sun than as a problem for their customers.

A bad idea when there are other companies out there offering better enterprise level stuff. Or as a DEC book put it, looking back on the frothy '70s minicomputer market, the companies that won did an _adequate_ job of _everything_ , didn't drop the ball on any of the essential things like documentation and support. Certainly no one bought DEC equipment for their disk drives....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > R3000 sold extremely well (over 1 million units were produced).

Although I know it's not directly comparable, I was at an ST event recently, and the representative said they were making one million STM32 ARM microcontrollers per day.

<comment><AUTHOR> I know, we've shipped about 800 million MIPS CPUs in the last year alone.

But for that time in history, a million processors was a big milestone. You also have to remember that in 1988 MIPS was a three-year old company battling established vendors.

<comment><USER8> > You also have to remember that in 1988 MIPS was a three-year old company > battling established vendors.

And 10 years after that MIPS has become an embittered outcast, trying to sue potential partners into the ground [0].

Luckily, after yet another 10 years MIPS has grown up and started acting somewhat sensibly [1].

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexra) [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#MIPS_patent_issues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#MIPS_patent_issues)

<comment><AUTHOR> Both MIPS and ARM sell CPU IP therefore I'm sure anyone here can dig up several examples of patent infringements that ended up in court.

I think what sets us apart from the competition is the fact that a MIPS CPU is now completely open and free for university use, including production-quality Verilog code and tools from Xilinx.

[http://www.anandtech.com/show/9194/imagination-announces- fre...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/9194/imagination-announces-free- mipsfpga-design-for-academia)

<comment><USER8> It takes quite some big brass b^H^H^H^H^H^H^H PR skills to downplay Lexra disaster that (together with market crash and other events around year 2000) costed MIPS itself quite dearly in both money directly and more importantly in market position. Need I remind you that was right around the time of ARM's spectacular rise: Quite literally MIPS Technologies being too busy with this litigation is the only good explanation why it was blind to the real threat: ARM7TDMI taking embedded/telecom market by storm. Only burgeoning xDSL market (and good availability of established binary-only MIPS codebase for it) that saved MIPS in early 2000s.

Not to mention quite egregious fact-twisting I see in your reply on two counts: First, that wasn't really a "patent infringement" \- first lawsuit was about trademark infringement - which Lexra arguably was guilty of, but quickly backpedaled, at which point case felt apart. Then MIPS, unhappy with that outcome, launched second, even bigger lawsuit that was technically about patent infringement, but Lexra never actually used the patent in question, and specifically marketed their design as free from lwl/r and swl/r instructions, making the whole thing a theater of absurd going on for years where plaintiff was alleging that Lexra was was yes, not implenting those instructions, but somehow facilitating their clients' emulating those. Hardly that can be called "ended up in court". Whopsie-daisy... "ended up", right...

Providing official Verilog code for an older MIPS core is certainly a massive feat and deserve an applause, but then again there are plenty of other HDL implementations of CPU cores around, MIPS ISA cores included [0]. And patent law have a safe haven for academia [1], so "completely open and free for university use" is just hot air, sorry. Still, it's "official", so there's value in that, of course.

[0] [http://opencores.org/project,ion](http://opencores.org/project,ion) [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_exemption)

<comment><AUTHOR> I wasn't around to witness the Lexra situation so I can't/won't contradict your observations.

However, I think there are a few other reasons why MIPS did not ride the wave of mobile like ARM did.

First of all, MIPS Technologies acquired mixed-signal design house Chipidea for $147m and then sold it to Synopsys for $22m after a rocky two-year integration process.

Secondly, MIPS management focused on markets like networking and home entertainment (set-top boxes, digital TVs, etc.) which did not enjoy the explosive growth of mobile.

To address the second part of your comment about MIPSfpga, this is not "an older core". It is a current-generation CPU capable of running Linux. It is used today in the Microchip PIC32 and the Samsung Artik 1 MCUs - two products that were released within the last year. Furthermore, most of these open cores implement MIPS III or IV architectures from two decades ago whereas MIPSfpga is MIPS32 Release 3. In addition, MIPSfpga implements industry-standard interfaces which make the core much easier to use on an FPGA.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wow, what does an HP LJ4000 laser printer need a processor that's also used in an SGI workstation for?

I looked into the Wikipedia article and although it's a big printer, I don't really understand how does it compare to a workstation's performance.

<comment><USER10> Probably Postscript and PCL rendering in firmware. Requires a lot of memory and CPU. Current printers use custom ASICs with specialized rendering hardware.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> i can't stop laughing at that article.

> Even though these days MIPS is best defined by the low-power [...] all > desktop and server processors released since the 1990s have borrowed heavily > from many of the energy-saving RISC philosophies introduced three decades > ago.

maybe the CPU itself was power efficient, but the actual machines from SGI were _far_ from it.

for example, nekochan is the de-facto forum for sgi/irix for a long time. here is someone begging to give away a onyx2 (top of the line, latest model, R12k sgi powerhorse) because they moved to a new office and didn't have a wimpy 250V 60A outlet laying around on the new place

[http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16720600](http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16720600)

> [...] our move to a new office. Since we have moved here we don't have > enough power to test it as it requires 60 amps at 250v (2 30 amp 230v > connectors).[...] The current offer is 250$ and pickup.
 \--- > 2009!

</comment><comment><USER12> I wonder how many other CPUs are named after an extremely useful thing they _don 't_ have.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think the original intention of the Stanford group was to highlight pipelining, so the "without interlocked" aspect should be seen in that context and not interpreted literally.

Until the late 1980s pipelining had been drastically underexploited by both CISC and RISC architectures.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> No R8000? Odd, multi-chip "FP performance at all costs" variant used in some of the SGI Power series. Made SGI a legitimate supercomputer vendor for a couple of years.

<comment><AUTHOR> I left out R8000 because it was used only for a short period of time and in a limited range of systems.

<comment><USER13> I get it, but it really did make MIPS an undisputed scientific computing beast. Probably I just have a soft spot for it as it was the chip that made me really understand that we'd be able to do what was once considered supercomputer-only tasks on something that was from a budget perspective a departmental or even workstation platform.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Vamo – Flight search for the traveling salesman - <AUTHOR> https://www.vamo.com/hacker-news

<comment><USER2> Nicely executed, although no use to me since I don't live in the US (and am pretty proficient at finding travel options anyway). Impressed that you have bus and train options in there even though you make far more if they pay for the flights, but would suggest an _option_ to exclude bus and train journeys which are four or more hours longer than the equivalent flight is a good idea for those who don't like long travels, if only to cut average search time. In future car hire providers offering 1 way travel (and affiliate relationships) should be a consideration too.

Would suggest that allowing a little more flexibility on duration (e.g. minimum and maximum time spent per place) might be worthwhile although I realise it makes the calculation a lot more complex.

More straightforwardly, I would suggest highlighting the start and finish dates above the full itinerary data with "earlier" and "later" options so if the "about three months" search suggests a result which is just a few days too early/later you can rerun a similarly broad search which will ensure you return the week before/after if not earlier/later. That would be much better than having to rerun the search with a quite specific date in mind.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is very cool! makes me want to take a vacation... if I didn't have a 5 month old!

I like that i can almost 'sketch' out possibilities with the tool. reminds me almost like a vacation planning version of hipmunk in that sense. I like UIs that are flexible like this.

</comment><comment><USER4> Apparently departure _has_ to be in the US, can't choose from european cities...</comment>