Ask HN: I'm going to have to lay people off, and want your advice - <AUTHOR> Throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm probably going to have to lay off several dozen people, which I've never done before. Needless to say I'm not looking forward to it. What advice do you have to make it as decent as possible both for those who will be laid off and those who will remain?<p>(Probably helpful if you note whether you are someone who has been laid off well or poorly, someone who has laid people off, or just have thoughts about it.) <comment><USER2> I've been through the dotcom bust, where my company went through 6 layoffs in a single year. We went from 1400 to about 600. I survived them, but it was a terrible experience, and after a while, people stopped working and just gossiped about the next layoff.

First off, if you're going to do layoffs, make sure it's one and done. This means, probably cutting more than you have to so that you don't have to keep making layoffs in 6 months, etc. The quicker you can get back to hiring, the better it will be for morale.

Layoff your lowest performers first. If you don't, then your top performers will leave you, and you will get crippled within less than a year. Don't do something like ask everyone to take a paycut, because it means that your top performers suffer just as much as your low performers. You should get rid of your low performers quickly.

Try to give as generous a severance package that you can. And meet with each of them face-to-face if possible, but with several dozen it's probably impossible.

Make it quick and let them leave with dignity. That means let them say bye to their friends, and making sure that every single question they may have answered. COBRA, unvested options, Unemployment benefits, etc. Personally I wouldn't escort them out or lock their accounts unless you think that they are going to cause problems. Hopefully they won't.

Do all the layoffs before lunch. Have a meeting with the rest of the company after the layoffs, after lunch and explain why you had to do it, and explain your plan to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Never tell the employees how YOU feel. No one cares.

<comment><USER3> Also, if you have a non-compete on the employment agreement. Do the right thing and nullify that agreement. If they go to your competitor, you have no one to blame but yourself. A non-compete does nothing from sharing secrets. Confidentiality agreement prevents that. (That is advice from a lawyer)

I'm not sure if I agree with you on the saying the good byes. Linkedin is a bit better than that. The worst thing you can do is send them back to their desk to backup and make the announcement while they're packing.

<comment><USER4> I'd be surprised if a non-compete was enforceable in a layoff situation. It is another thing if they quit on their own, or maybe if they were fired for cause.

<comment><USER3> Talk with a lawyer. However, if you're not in CA or a place where non-competes aren't valid: They can be enforced. It's shitty, but that's business.

<comment><USER5> In a situation like this though, it can probably be thrown out for lack of consideration. You'd also probably have a decent suit for damages as well: if a company hires you with a non-compete and then dumps you on the street because it can no longer meet it's contractual obligations to you, but still prevents you from earning a wage through an onerous contract (which they unilaterally terminated) causing real damages to your lifetime earnings.

<comment><USER3> You'd think. A lawyer will tell you this: "I'm not a magician. You signed the contract."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> One thing that I would add as a worker is to be cognizant of people on work visas. In America, H1Bs have very oppressive terms for being out of work, in that one is technically immediately out of status if laid off. This means that they would have to quickly find a new job willing to transfer their visa (within a couple of weeks) or take their family and leave the country. I don't know what your options are to help lessen the blow here (is it possible to keep someone on payroll for a couple months in lieu of severance?), but keep it in mind.

<comment><USER7> I'm not sure of the legalities but I worked for a place that kept a laid off h1b employee on in a no-show position for 8 weeks to give him time to transition.

<comment><USER8> This is how it worked both times I was laid off from a large silicon valley company.

The deal was basically: "You're relieved of duties today, but you stay on the books and draw salary for [1-2] months, after which you'll be terminated with [N] months of salary as severance. Obviously you're welcome to look for other jobs, internally or externally, and if you find a new job and don't want to wait out the 2 months, you're free to quit early (foregoing severance)."

It felt waaay better than being escorted out with [N+2] months of severance, and the cost to the company is the same (or cheaper if some people wind up forfeiting their severance).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've found what Ben Horowitz has written about management to be incredibly helpful. I am lucky to never have had to lay people off, however, if I did, I'd go to this first: [http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_right_way_to_lay_people_off](http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_right_way_to_lay_people_off)

<comment><USER10> I have luckily never had to do this or never been had to be laid off, but when I read his book, this appeared to be the most reasonable way to do it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I've had to let people go directly, and helped others through this process. It sucks, and it's an immensely valuable lesson as an entrepreneur - when you've done this once, you will work harder to prevent it ever happening again, while at the same time being prepared to do it faster in situations where that is warranted.

A common mistake when winding back a company is _only_ pulling it back to break-even. Eg, 'Our revenue forecasts show we can cover 50 salaries, so let's cut back to 50 people.' There are two problems with this - first, if your forecasts are too optimistic, you will be forced to do another round of cuts and the team / clients will start fearing a death spiral. Second, cutting a business back to break even leaves you with no spare cash flow to invest in future growth - you risk stagnating. Better to add an extra 10% to the layoffs now than risk the remainder of the business.

From there, the decision about who to let go is sometimes obvious (you might be dropping a product line, have an underperforming team, or some stand-out low performers). Do what you can to re-deploy your top performers elsewhere within the company - you'll want them, and their advocacy, moving forward. Where it's not obvious, and you can't get guidance from team leaders etc, accept that it's going to be partly a crapshoot where nobody wins.

How you communicate the decision and the reason why is critical. steven2012 has covered this well elsewhere in the thread. Be honest, take responsibility, and be positive for the future you plan to create. Good luck.

</comment><comment><USER12> My first week at a new job, half the company got let go. And a few months later, it got slashed even further. I don't have the specific numbers but at the end of the year, we went from over 200 to about 80ish. (I hope I got the numbers right)

Anyways... Half the company met in one place (and they got let go) and half the company stayed.

Do a single cut. The second cut prompted people to lose faith in the company. It didn't matter what the CEO said, most people simply believed that "this was it". Many started to look for other jobs. I believe the first one we called the "bloody Tuesday" and the second one was a "bloody Friday". It became a permanent joke/non-joke that whenever a big meeting was called, people were going to be let go. Or whenever someone talked about "strategy", it meant cutting departments. Not a good thing AT ALL.

Don't be a dick about it. From what I know, the people that got let go got a good severance and references. Both good things.

Make sure the morale stays up. Many of us had issues dealing with it. Productivity dropped, faith in the company, etc. Actually, the worst part was watching higher up people stay and not be affected, and slack off on top of it.

Nothing worse than seeing someone who makes 6 figures play Mario Kart in the break room for the whole day a few weeks after all this happened.

What DID help was that us lower folk started playing video games over lunch. It fostered new friendships, and helped us get productive again. But that got cut as well after people complained (to this day, I don't get it).

<comment><USER13> ^I agree with the note above. Very easy to loose faith in a company who didn't cut deep enough. I survived a layoff round only to be furloughed for the week after Christmas a few months later. Had lots of time during a cold winter to think about how I should have quit months ago.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Severance severance severance. Everything else is just words. If you can't afford it, than give everyone vesting / option rights for ten years.

If you can't do that, honestly, it's all just empty words and bullsht in my opinion. Someone screwed a lot of people by over hiring and mismanagement. Hope whoever was responsible for that is first to go.

<comment><USER15> Short but good advice. The last set of layoffs I went through at a big company was just everyone being really worried until they gave a somewhat fair severance. That calmed the mood significantly. Fortunately I missed the layoff cuts but myself and my co-workers were on edge until they announced the severance.

Later on however the company announced 3 more rounds of layoffs, each having less and less severance and time before leaving. It would have been FAR better to cut many more people during the first round so they could have all gotten the same severance instead of later groups being essentially screwed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Don't do it on a Friday, mid week is best. Friday is the worst, that being said get it over ASAP and give them as much warning as possible to give them time to land on their feet. I agree with Steven cut more than you have to, a second round of layoffs means you loose everybody you would want to keep. I have never seen a company survive if it has went to that well twice.

Chances are they already know it is coming, if work is slow and not coming in or the burn rate is high and you have run long on funds then they will be expecting it. Have a very clear plan to explain to those that stay, as to why the ship is righted now and how you plan to survive. Plan to loose at least a few of your best guys, if you loose one, use his/her salary to give the others a raise or you will lose them too.

Also cut the pessimist over the pragmatist or the optimist. In a layoff environment the pessimist will kill your company moral. If you got a guy that is say 15% better than another guy but he is a pessimist and the other guy is an optimist, keep the optimist. That being said, trim dead weight if they are just not skilled let them go not matter their outlook. As others have said, look to trim, trim more than you need.

<comment><USER17> > Don't do it on a Friday, mid week is best. Friday is the worst

Having gotten laid off on a Monday morning at 10AM after spending the whole weekend working in anticipation of finishing a major deadline that day, I'm not sure I agree. I'd rather not find out though...

<comment><USER18> That has nothing to do with Friday vs. Monday though. A major deadline can be set any day of the week and management has to be cognizant of that in deciding when to lay off. It's likely that in your case they were, but not in the way we'd hope.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> As a founder who has laid people off in the past, I think the kindest thing you can do (for everyone involved) is give them as much notice as you possibly can. No matter what pay-rate the employees are at, assume they're living paycheck to paycheck, and that a sudden loss of their income will be much worse than a loss 2-3 months from now.

My second suggestion is to go out of your way to be the best reference these people have ever had. Write letters of rec, tell them to list you personally as a reference (with your cell #), etc. And if you can, use your network to help them find new opportunities.

For those who remain, just try to be as honest as you can. If their jobs are possibly insecure, let them know as well.

Best of luck, I know this is hard.

<comment><USER20> But when paired with the other advice given out in this thread "layoff your biggest underperformers first", why would you be a reference to them? Other employers would call you and you would lie and say that they were awesome when you really thought that they sucked?

<comment><USER21> Layoffs are the easiest time to give an employee a reference: "We really wanted to hold on to Bjorn, but we hit a hard patch and had to lay people off. We'd hire him back in a heartbeat if we had more money."

<comment><USER22> Nothing like a little polite dishonesty to allow everyone to save face...

<comment><USER21> If you're laying people off because you need to trim payroll, everything I said should be true.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I've been on both ends, being fired/laid off and doing the firing/laying.

My advice is first, realize you're not going to be popular. Treat people with dignity but don't worry too much about how they will take it. They're going to take it poorly. They're going to be upset. If some of your employees aren't, then that's a bonus. With this in mind, don't let your process or productivity become unnecessarily disrupted and be _very_ careful in making concessions.

With this many people, do it all at once. Don't make people wait in agony for hours or days waiting to see if they'll get called in next. The specifics on how to do that will depend on the structure and size of your company, but do not allow for suspense.

Like others said, treat the employees with dignity and offer a reasonable severance as far as is possible. This isn't about preserving your relationship with them, it's about being a decent human being and making accommodation to ease a large transition like that.

Good luck. Like I said above, don't overthink it or worry about preserving your employees' opinions -- just behave in a manner that seems both reasonable and decent to you and be satisfied with that. Making it fast, moving forward with resolve, and appearing like you know what you're doing will help comfort the remaining employees to whatever extent is possible.

</comment><comment><USER24> I've worked at companies during layoffs, and have been a manager at these companies as well (though fortunately never had to lay someone off personally). My advice:

\- Managers should tell their direct reports personally, rather than delegating to someone else like HR. I still remember, unfondly, when one manager didn't want the burden of delivering the bad news and found someone else to do it.

\- Give the people who will be laid off as much time as possible to send work emails, talk to colleagues, get taken to lunch, etc. As <steven2012> said, let them leave with dignity. Your employment agreement already prohibits misuse of corporate resources and criminal law prohibits theft of company property; as a general rule there's no need to have a security guard hovering over a desk.

\- Write a letter of recommendation if your corporate policy allows and your employee's performance merits it. Give it to them in printed form and PDF. Don't merely offer to do it if they ask.

\- As many others have said, do only one round of layoffs. Company morale can survive a single round. It may not survive repeated rounds, with nobody knowing when (and where) the next axe is going to fall.

\- Communicate honestly with your remaining employees to the extent policy allows. The best managers will admit it if they don't know something.

<comment><USER25> > \- Write a letter of recommendation if your corporate policy allows and your > employee's performance merits it. Give it to them in printed form and PDF. > Don't merely offer to do it if they ask.

If you really care about making it easier for the person being fired, this is a MUST. I have been on the opposite end where my employer simply said, "write something up and Ill take a look at it." Don't Do That. It is the same thing as telling them "you are dead to me, and aren't even worth the decency of two minutes of my time to reflect on the good you have done for my company, and the extra minute to think of a way to help you move forward."

Want to be decent, write the letter of recommendation in advance. The gesture will go a long way in keeping bridges from being burnt.

On the note of burnt bridges, I know of a nursing home company in Colorado that layed someone off in a not so courteous way and 10 years later she became the head of nursing home licensing in Colorado and the moment she found the first excuse, she revoked their license on 20 nursing homes, costing them tens of millions of dollars.

<comment><USER26> > If you really care about making it easier for the person being fired, this > is a MUST.

Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but I see a round of layoffs as something considerably different than being fired. Net-effect the same, but firing someone has a the connotation that it was for cause.

<comment><USER25> I can only speak to my own experience: but the the connotation you are looking for just doesn't exist.

As long as some people are let go and others keep their jobs, people will assume there was a reason they got let go...not just because the company had to make layoffs.

Short of committing a deliberate fire-able offense, being let go as part of a layoff feels exactly the same.

<comment><USER26> Except being fired for cause you are:

* Unlikely to get a reference.

* Unlikely to collect unemployment insurance.

* Unlikely to get severance.

* Unlikely be rehired in the future.

Yes it _may_ feel like the same, but they are very clearly two different things.

<comment><USER25> I think we are defining "cause" differently. Inam referrring to an underperformer being let go for financial reasons or someone not fitting into the culture - similar to a layoff but only impacting one person...you seem to be referring to someone who gets fired because they did something egregious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I've been on both sides of this within the past year. (Have been let go, and had to let go 40% of a company) Ben Horowitz writes about this, and it's required reading. [0]

Some thoughts:

1 - When you have the announcement, be clear about the reasons for it. ("The market moved", "We didn't hit our revenue plan." or "Mgmt f*cked up.")

2 - Highlight the severity of the situation. ("If we don't do this, we have 3 months of runway left, which isn't enough time. If we do this, we have 9 months to get our act in gear.")

3 - Given the constraints of #2, be as generous as possible with severance.

4 - Never ever badmouth anyone who was let go as a result of this.

5 - Be a proactive reference for those let go. Don't just wait for calls - make placement calls for your people.

(Note - 3 through 5 is in part to be humane to those leaving, and in part to rally those left behind.)

6 - If at all possible, only cut once. Cut deeper if you need to just to avoid doing it twice.

7 - Be firm in the meetings. "This isn't about performance, it's about saving the company." It's not a negotiation. Have at least 1 witness in the meeting, ideally an HR person.

Note - all of these things still won't make it any better, just less worse. It's a tough thing to cut off your foot to save your leg. That's what you're doing.

[0] [http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_right_way_to_lay_people_off](http://www.bhorowitz.com/the_right_way_to_lay_people_off)

</comment><comment><USER28> I was laid off once, and although it was a horrible experience, I do not think I would feel as bad if it happened again. The reason is that the first time you get laid off, you think to yourself you are absolutely fucked and there is no way out of the tunnel, especially with bills looming. But in hindsight, it was never as bad as it seemed. I was able to hook up with a recruiter and I was back in another job within 20-30 days. So here I am telling you I survived and everything turned out ok!

Having said that, if I were about to get laid off there are some things that would ease the transition and make it more bearable. First worry is income. If you could guarantee a months severance, that would go a long way. Second is health insurance. If you could have all those resources prefigured out by the time I left, I'd be much happier. Third is promise of future income. If you could have recruiters on standby so that if I could make the choice to begin the job search, it would be great. Lastly, this is sorta extra credit, but experiencing job loss is quite tramatic. You can make counselors / work therapists available to be there in the time of need.

Basically what I'm trying to say, if you are going to let people go, make the only thing they have to worry about is getting over the shock of getting let go. That is unavoidable. But if they know they are being taken care of and empathized with, they'll get over it quickly.

<comment><USER29> The only way to deal with a layoff is to be fully prepared. Keep an active resume, have huge savings, be debt free, and have good contacts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Here's how not to do it...

Experience 1:

\- Start deactivating their accounts a week before giving the news.

\- Give 3 days severance pay and act like it's not just them not wanting to figure out how to cut 3 days out of a paycheck.

\- Have the manager escort the employee to HR without a word, and then leave and let HR deal with the hard part.

Experience 2:

\- Tell the employee over email while they're on vacation, and then never bother to have any follow-up in any form.

</comment><comment><USER22> A lot of people who get laid off want to know why them and not a peer. Was their peer a better performer at the same pay grade? Or was their peer doing the same job for less money? Is the company looking to eliminate senior roles? Junior roles? Or was the selection completely random?

Some transparency into why the decision was made can be make it easier to move on. Generic reassurances that "it's not performance related" are not always helpful, particularly because that's so often bullshit.

It certainly was performance related to the extent that if the person being laid off was doing twice as much good work for half as much money then it's unlikely they'd have been let go. It's a hard thing to talk about, I know, but that's what people want to know when they ask why.

That way the person let go knows whether and how to adjust their performance going forward at their next job so they're more likely to survive that company's inevitable layoffs.

<comment><USER31> So, I've got comments from both ends, but I think your advice is super interesting, especially from the employer-side of things.

>A lot of people who get laid off want to know why them and not a peer. Was their peer a better performer at the same pay grade? Or was their peer doing the same job for less money? Is the company looking to eliminate senior roles? Junior roles? Or was the selection completely random?

Hm. So, as an employee, I wouldn't believe any of those answers, were the boss to give them to me. As someone else said, "Severance... everything else is just words" \- but it is important to remember that most people are not as cynical as I am.

As an employer, though, that advice is interesting... because really, it seems kind of shitty to say "I'm sorry bob, but it turns out that Joe is just three times more effective than you are. I think he's just smarter." which is what I'd say if I really was giving the unvarnished truth. I mean, a lot of times, there isn't really much Bob could do about it; he's just not as smart as Joe is; it's not really his fault.

but my instinct, when I don't know what the right thing to say, is to just tell the truth, so your advice appeals to me. but it just seems like this is one of those 'does my butt look big' situations where keeping my damnfool mouth shut is the best option.

Is this what you would want to hear? How would you feel if the boss told you someone else was three times as effective as you were and you disagreed with that assessment?

>That way the person let go knows whether and how to adjust their performance going forward at their next job so they're more likely to survive that company's inevitable layoffs.

As an employee, I say that you always want to be in the first round of layoffs. The severance is usually best at that point, and even if the company did a good job and fired the people who were, say, half as productive, those people did _some_ work, and that work still needs to get done. Guess who gets to do it? You! the "Lucky" person who didn't get laid off!

I've never gotten the axe in a layoff... I've been fired, but that's a different thing. More than once I've ended up quitting after the first or second round of layoffs because the company expected me to work twice as hard for the same money (and no possibility of a raise) with half the support I had before.

<comment> mark-r Any lawyer is going to tell you to keep your mouth shut in this situation. Anything you say at this point may be held against you later. Sucks, but true.

<comment><USER31> Yeah, but all my assets are in my company... and really, once someone has had root on your servers? It's pretty much impossible to take that away without their consent. A "clean wipe and re-install from backups before this person had root" is going to leave me with nothing bout a smoking crater, financially speaking.

Also, you just saw what happened on Reddit. Firing someone who is in contact with your customers can backfire in ways way worse than a discrimination lawsuit, if you screw it up.

so... at least when dealing with my own stuff, while I'm sure my insurance company would prefer I follow your advice, it's probably in my own best interest to do whatever it is I can do to avoid pissing off the outgoing employee, even if it does give them more leverage if it comes to a legal fight.

I mean, I'm not sure if the commentor I'm responding to is right or not, but getting sued for wrongful termination is pretty far down the list of things you should be worrying about when you fire someone as a small company.

<comment> mark-r Obviously every case is different, and it's up to you to weigh the upside vs. the downside - but this is the advice you'll get. And if you're on the receiving side and wondering why they won't say boo about why you were let go, this is probably the reason.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Here is more information than you would expect :)

[https://www.manager-tools.com/map-universe/organizational- ev...](https://www.manager-tools.com/map-universe/organizational-events- layoffs)

I like Manager-Tools because it is step-by-step and actionable. Does not say "think out of the box" (how?), it gives you exact words that have worked for 1000s of companies.

BTW, performance based layoff list might be a legal issue in some case, for example when the reason is workforce reduction. Without a good lawyer don't go there...

<comment><USER33> Are you saying "the only legal method of choosing who to lay off is a meticulously documented firing lottery", or "do it by performance, but don't admit it"?

<comment><USER32> I'm saying that there are many options with non-obvious consequences, so don't try to wing it. Any mistake will cost you orders of magnitude more than a professional advice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've been made redundant once before, but luckily landed on my feet right away as my contract (and the companies clients) were taken over by another company.

The best advice I can give as someone on the other side is to:

1\. Do it quickly. Tell them right away that they have been made redundant, and that it is non-negotiable. Let them know that it is not of any fault of their own, and that they will be allowed to interview whenever they please. Being made redundant sucks, not just because you're out of a job, but because you often feel that if you were better at your job the company wouldn't have had to make cutbacks.

2\. If you make someone redundant during work hours, make sure they leave the office at the end of the day. I've worked in companies where employees were made redundant at around 2-3pm and then asked to return to their desk to carry on work. This was a huge problem for everyone in the office, as that person was still working to a deadline, and was asked by the manager to (paraphrasing) "stop moping, and get on with your work".

3\. If you know anyone looking to hire in roles you are making redundant, let that person know that you know someone who would be great at the role, and let that person know that you'll write them a glowing recommendation.

</comment><comment><USER35> Talking from the perspective of someone on H1-B. Please keep any employee on H1-B on your payroll, in lieu of a severance pay. This will help them to minimize the issues that crop up with the immigration when you are out of a job for a extended period.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've had to let people go, and have been a survivor through multiple rounds of layoffs, if you are VC Backed, first check if it's possible to land the better performers at another company that backed by the same investors.

The first start up I worked at, had a pretty tough rounds of layoffs. One of the engineers found a home at a startup that was backed by the same VC. Eventually as the first startup went under, he laid the ground work for some of us to transition over to his dev team.

</comment><comment><USER36> Did this only once to a dozen people and it was BRUTAL - both for them and for me. So let's not pretend it is simple or painless. Here's what worked for me:

* Put paperwork in place - termination, contracts, final settlement, dues etc etc - get those facts together in writing.

* Have a schedule for each affected employee's "exit" interview. No "send so-and-so in". That can be very stressful for the employee. Instead, set up a calendar invite and talk.

* If any employees are remote, have a video-conference so they can SEE your face.

* Go through the process as quickly as possible - ideally, all announcements within the same day.

* Have a "script" for the interview. This should include the announcement, the reason and the next steps (HR, benefits, payroll, equipment). Don't be needlessly cryptic/dishonest about the reasons behind the firings. Layoffs occur for ONE reason only: finance. So tell your employees the basic facts, but you are not obligated to share ALL the gory details. Simply saying "Our financials are the reason why we are doing this and I am sorry this will impact you and many others" is good enough.

* Be patient during the interviews. Don't rush it. Every laid-off employee thinks this has to do with them personally, when it's not. So take your time to explain, sympathize, offer help and guidance.

* Don't forget to reach out to the non-affected employees after the process. They too are running scared and deserve compassion.

I also personally reached out to all affected employees a few weeks after the layoffs to see how they were doing. Nearly ALL of them had jobs, which was awesome. This may or may not work in every scenario, so YMMV.

</comment><comment><USER37> First of all, get an upvote for taking the effort to try and make it better for those whom you lay off.

I've never been laid off from a real job, just from a temp one where the owner was a jerk. Few things I can think of: 1) Try, with you best efforts, to help the folks you lay off to get other jobs. Recommend & refer them to those you see relevant. Make sure they get advice from their direct boss about what the should/better/could do next, and try to get your company waling their hand thro.

2) Clarify the situation quickly. People hate to get these news but rumors running around are much worse.

3) Some managers afraid try to detach their compassion to cut this awful mission fast. This is not the time to pull the authoritative boss too much. You're already sending them, try to show warmth.

4) Keep in touch with the best employees you have to let go. Try to hire some of the in the future if you can. If will be a great closure.

5) Can you send them away with something? A course to develop their skills towards the next job? a gift? few meetings with career coach for each laid off employee? (you can but that at bulk)

Best of luck!

</comment><comment><USER38> Be kind, just, considerate, etc. Many have covered these ideas, no need for me to repeat them.

What I will say is, you should consult with an attorney. It is all well and fine to go through life assuming that all people are good, honorable, ethical and even altruistic. Yet, it is even better to believe those things while taking steps towards protecting yourself and your company should you come across someone who deviates from such notions.

Why do I say this? Because I've been burned on more than one occasion by people who see a layoff as an opportunity to enrich themselves. If you don't know how to manage a layoff it is very likely that you will do and say things that will expose you and your company to liability. This is the part that sucks. You have to lawyer-up in order not to create a problem for yourself or your business. There are Federal and State laws you have to be aware of.

Spend a few hundred dollars to sit down with an attorney well versed in matters surrounding labor law and have him/her advise you on how to conduct the layoffs.

</comment><comment><USER39> What if you tap into your connections and try to find them a job? Think of it as if the other company acquihires part of your company. Chances are you are probably firing teams and there are many reasons why any company would love to get working teams as a package. In this situation everyone wins. Of course it is harder to pull off than it sounds.

</comment><comment><USER40> Within the HR profession, there's a discipline about performing layoffs that minimize litigation risk, unemployment insurance costs, reputation risk, etc. Firms like Lee Hecht Harrison walk employers through a complete menu of services that prep the layoff meeting, instructions for HR, IT, and security, and services for your layed-off people that get them into job search quickly. LHH claims, for example, that their service "gets employees back to work 50% faster". You'll trade off the benefits of a graceful exit vs. the cash you need to keep.

\- [http://www.lhh.com/career-transition/career- transition.aspx](http://www.lhh.com/career-transition/career-transition.aspx) \- [http://www.risesmart.com/outplacement](http://www.risesmart.com/outplacement)

</comment><comment><USER41> Related question: Are there any well-known & admirable companies that have gone through layoffs early in their lives?

<comment><USER42> I suspect the list is pretty long. But off the top of my head, Pandora had a pretty brutal layoff in the very beginning, to the tune of (from what I understand) basically asking their most dedicated employees to work for free. Somehow they pulled themselves out of that one, but, it wasn't pretty.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I've personally been instructed to fire two people who reported to me, who had been coworkers before organizational changes and who were both nominally friends. There is no easy way to do it even if it's justified. The worst part is honestly what happens after - the person may have a hard time finding another job, and even if the separation is justified it's still kind of 'on you' for letting them go; a lot of people would assert that it's on you anyway for not making them better.

I've been through a 'silent layoff' at a startup, wherein most of the staff just stopped getting paid. We were funded by PE; the leadup to the separation was several weeks of accusations back and forth re: lying about available funds vs. mismanagement of granted funds. The company offered no severance and fought my unemployment claim. I was kind of relieved when it was over, but I would not recommend handling it this way unless you just don't care; it's been years but I still basically hate everyone involved.

I've since survived 3-4 rounds of layoffs where I'm working now. We've had it most of the ways you can have it: mass meeting, one on one w/ HR rep, nominated out-of-dept managers shepherding individuals out of the building, rent-a-cops in the office, etc. In all but one case, the departing employees were given a couple of paychecks severance + placement assistance and IIRC in at least one case remaining employees were offered grief counseling.

I don't think I could ever enjoy being laid off, but IMO the right way in a multi-person separation is to have one meeting with everyone, be honest about what's going on, and give them whatever you can to soften the blow. Unless there's a good chance your funding situation is about to improve, this means you should do it a little earlier than you think you need to so that last x days/weeks of salary can be severance instead; IMO people are not going to be significantly happier about being laid off if it happens 2 weeks later. If you've got contacts at other places and you can give references or help place, do that. You probably don't need police to escort people out, but you should get the departing employees out of the building w/ relevant credentials and badges revoked asap. Don't let people mill around, it exposes you and gives them more opportunity to vent in ways both of you will regret; I've seen where people were let go, then went and deleted things from file servers or otherwise destroyed property prior to leaving the building.

<comment><USER3> > I've been through a 'silent layoff' at a startup, wherein most of the staff > just stopped getting paid. We were funded by PE; the leadup to the > separation was several weeks of accusations back and forth re: lying about > available funds vs. mismanagement of granted funds. The company offered no > severance and fought my unemployment claim. I was kind of relieved when it > was over, but I would not recommend handling it this way unless you just > don't care; it's been years but I still basically hate everyone involved.

This and a few other things really makes one not want to work for a startup again.

<comment><USER43> I was trying to highlight the separation experience with that startup, not startups in general. That startup was all wrong: wrong idea, wrong funding, wrong people in the wrong positions, etc. It was doomed from the start, but it still didn't have to end (for me/us) the way it did.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Just be honest. Don't try and hide stuff, or sugar-coat things: tell people how it is, why it is, and even if it's horrible initially I believe they'll thank you for it in the long run.

Do it as soon as you can. If you know now, tell them now. Every day you don't tell them is a day they're potentially missing out on another job.

For yourself, try and keep some perspective. Things happen. Life moves on. People recover.

Source: I had to tell 22 people that the company we were running had just gone in to administration and today was the last day. We only found out ourselves the day before when our "accountant" (grrr... anger still remains towards that one) revealed herself to be less than competent. It was horrible, but me and my colleagues just sat them down and laid it out straight and said we'd do whatever we could to help, and that was that.

<comment><USER45> What did your accountant do?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I just went through a layoff, but was thankfully hired at another place within a few weeks, and I consider myself very fortunate, given that I was having performance issues. For me, here's what helped me get through it:

-Getting a month's severance pay. Personally I wish I had gotten more, but it greater than zero so I couldn't complain all that much(sorta, I wouldn't have been happy if it was just a few hundred or so).

-Getting a month's worth of health coverage. My internal doomsday clock started ticking for getting a new job, and having that health insurance gave me some comfort knowing I wasn't going to be completely screwed if I were to be slammed by a hauling truck the moment I left the parking lot.

-Being reassured it wasn't for performance reasons, especially since I had just gotten a poor review several months prior(the severance contract specifically stated this, and said I was eligible for re-hire). I wanted to leave, and I'd never reapply anyway, but it was nice to do so on good terms.

-Getting an offer for a reference during the transition. My sorta-boss said I could use him as a reference before I even asked, I didn't need it but I really appreciated it.

-Getting some time to talk with now-former-coworkers, rather than being whisked out of the building. I was annoyed that my PC access was immediately disabled and my keycard disabled(let me take my stuff to the car, I need multiple trips, wtf), but getting closure with people(along with emails) more than made up for it.

The one thing they did that pissed me off was that they did it on a Monday morning at 10AM after I had spent the whole weekend pulling overtime for them to finish up a major project deadline that was due 5PM that day. It felt like a huge slap in the face to put on your A-game for the day, only to be dropped after sacrificing personal time for the company. Despite all the rosy things I said, I'm still bitter about that.

It sucks to be in this position and I wish you, and those who'll be laid off, the best of luck.

<comment> mark-r In the U.S. I believe the law requires them to give you 12 months of continued health insurance (see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Omnibus_Budget_Re...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_Omnibus_Budget_Reconciliation_Act_of_1985)). But any subsidies you enjoyed while employed are done, you must pay the entire premium yourself and that can be expensive.

<comment><USER17> Right, I could have stayed on it if I wished, but only one month was covered by them, and it really helped.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> If you're the CEO, show presence. Our former CEO went home on the afternoon and let middle management do the talking. Don't be that guy. People will be angry at you and it will feel shitty. Do it anyway and absorb the blame. It's only one day.

Either be visibly available or take part in the layoffs.

In the layoffa, be fair, transparent and clear - but follow the protocol. Don't beat around the bush, your (and your managers') first sentence should be "We're very sorry, but we will let you go." Instilling hope or doubt where there is none is unfair, don't do it by accident.

Reiterated because it's so important: nobody cares about your feelings that day. You can't make it better. Don't make it worse and be a real grown-up.

</comment><comment><USER47> Be honest with the employees. Don't just spring it on everyone. Don't do it on Monday when people are expecting to come in fresh and start their week. It's ok to let people know changes are coming, even if you can't tell them the details right away.

</comment><comment><USER48> I went through mass layoffs during the dotcom bust. Most people were expecting it...that made it easier. I was still a little shocked but when you're ushered into a room with 74 other people and they start handing out packets...you're pretty sure what is about to happen.

We all went out for beers afterwards and discussed it.

I suggest you get the CEO to mention there will likely be cutbacks, that way its not out of left field.

Otherwise, just be honest. Bring them all into a room, be short and don't beat around the bush. The last thing people want is a bunch of bullshit. Watch "Up In The Air" \-- its pretty sad how this effects people.

Give them the rest of the day to collect their things....a few days to clean up their laptops before turning them in.

What size company is this?

</comment><comment><USER49> There are, at least in my area, charities that do excellent employment support. (Might want to consult with HR to see what your liabilities are in that direction in your area.) Whenever I've fired people or had to let them go, I've made sure those charities are aware of the situation and available to work with. That way it's a bit less, "Good luck and goodbye!"

Also letters of recommendation and keeping them on as employed with zero hour contracts for a month or so so that their CV has current work history on it while they're looking.

</comment><comment><USER50> Cut more than you have to so you only have to do it once. Don't worry if you cut more than you could have if things pick up, it is critical that it is one and done.

I would advise telling everyone remaining you are "over cutting" so they know that another cut is not coming in the next couple of months if things don't turn out the way you hoped. Other than don't be an asshole and provide as much support for those cut as possible and don't use weasel words like "right sized" or "let go".

</comment><comment><USER51> What percentage (roughly) of employees does this affect? A 10% reduction is different to a 50% reduction.

Is the need for lay-off simply related to revenue or are you eliminating a whole category of work (e.g. outsourcing)?

Being told that 'we just don't do that work any more' is perhaps less disruptive to other parts of the organisation.

A cut for revenue reasons will obviously raise issues about the competence of management and so your high-fliers will be arranging to leave.

</comment><comment><USER52> Just do it in person. I've seen co-workers laid off via email, SMS, and voicemail, and that all sucks much worse than in person. If you absolutely must, a live phone call is acceptable, but only when there are serious impediments to meeting in person. My favorite story is of a person who was dispatched to a remote facility to lay off a group and on his way there, was himself laid off in a voicemail. Don't be that company.

</comment><comment><USER53> Kudos to you for asking this question.

Just make clear to people who are being laid off the reason.

Essentially people will feel a bit happier knowing that it wasn't them who screwed up.

</comment><comment><USER54> The last time I was laid off, I had 2 months notice. I still drop by every once in a while to have lunch. I feel lucky I got to work with those guys.

</comment><comment><USER55> I had to lay off a bunch of people. Same day: good. Taking it very personally as a failure: very bad. Companies over-hire, funding fails to come through, key clients leave. If you were good to them when they worked for you, you did your best. Now your company needs your best, most focused self. I instead wallowed for 6 months and the company has lost a bit of its stride. Don't do that.

</comment><comment><USER56> The best hand on experience I have ever read about firing people due to lack of funding is Steli Efti from Close.io in this blog post : [http://blog.close.io/i-fired-half-my-team](http://blog.close.io/i-fired-half- my-team)

I have fired people recently and wished I had read that blog post first!

</comment><comment><USER57> You're going to want to keep your best employees. They're going to be thinking about leaving.

By virtue of being the best, these are the employees who would most easily be able to find work elsewhere, and they're the smartest employees who will not just shrug and carry on as before when they see their fellows being made redundant around them. They will think about what it means for the company (and thus their future). They will see what's happened and think about moving on. Maybe not right away, but they'll be thinking about it, and your best employees are (by definition) the ones who other companies most want.

You asked us to note where we speak from personal experience. I've seen it happen, and I've done it myself. I watched a round of redundancies come through, and I was told not to worry; I was essential and a good employee. I found another job with a company that was doing better. The company I left found that the people it most wanted to keep drifted away over the following year.

You need a plan to keep these employees.

Also, check the local laws for laying people off for whatever reason you're doing it. You'd hate to have someone come back with a legal claim in a year. I've seen that happen too.

</comment><comment><USER58> Off topic, but the term "layoff" seems like a euphemism for "fired". I always thought that a true layoff meant the employer intended to re-hire the workers after the company's financial position improved. I wonder if labor law makes this distinction?

</comment><comment><USER59> If you are the CEO/near the top, don't make the foolish mistake of telling people "but now we're all set & we won't need to do this again"

You just might, and you'll lose all credibility with your employees.

<comment><USER50> This is true in that you should never promise anything you can't deliver.

I do think you should over cut and then tell the remaining people that you have done this so that you can say you have done everything in your power to avoid doing it again. If you need to cut 50 people to have a good chance of surviving then cut 75 and tell everyone remaining why you have done this. One and done is critical.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> this relevant item was posted today: [https://42floors.com/blog/startups/after-the- layoffs](https://42floors.com/blog/startups/after-the-layoffs)

</comment><comment><USER61> I remember the time that Yahoo announced layoffs in time for earnings, but the specific people to be laid off we're not find out for six more weeks. This was not very good for morale.

</comment><comment><USER62> I've laid off several people several times.

To me it was much harder than firing people - hard by itself - because mass layed off people ask "why me" where I had no good answer.

Keep handkerchiefs around.

</comment><comment><USER63> The best thing you could do is letting them know in advance.

Let them know at least a month in advance, leaving them much needed time to adapt to their new financial situation.

</comment><comment><USER64> Give them this link: [http://www.warplife.com/jobs/computer/](http://www.warplife.com/jobs/computer/)

email me at firstname.lastname@example.com and I will post what listings I already have for your area, and will find some more. (Presently I have the Portland Oregon area, Seattle and six or eight others actually posted but I have at least a few listings each for hundreds of cities in dozens of countries.)

Ask your local government's employment office for help with outplacement.

Say nice things in their linkedin profiles.

Give them all hardcopy letters if recommendation.

</comment><comment><USER65> There's nothing worse than getting cut loose on a friday evening on a payday. Can't do anything about your circumstances for 2 days such talking to unemployment, talking to other employers, etc. Let that last paycheck roll in a week or two later, it will ease their mind even though in reality it would make no difference.</comment>


Why We Don't Work Overtime - <AUTHOR> http://bigbangtechnology.com/post/why_we_dont_work_overtime

<comment><USER2> Agree with the last commenter who pointed out ur policy is, in itself, a compliance tactic. You've gone to the opposite extreme: some people, at different phases in their life, grow by working excessively. I did. Focus not on squelching the desire people have to do more for you and instead on ensuring that those who prefer a traditional work-life balance are not penalized in light of their more work-oriented co-workers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ok, I sort of see where you're coming from. But what am I trying to get them to comply to? I suppose I am trying to get them to comply when it comes to being disciplined in their approach to being productive at the office. I'm also trying to get them to comply in leading active, healthy, balanced lifestyles. But since the intent of this strategy is really in the best interest of the team member, I don't see it as a typical compliance tactic, which tends to promote the best interest of the employer at the expense of the staff member.

You do bring up an interesting point. One of the guys that we're hiring now brought this point up and said, 'what if I really want to work overtime for the following reasons..." And he brought up some good points. It was a great conversation and probably deserves its own blog post.

I'd be curious to ask you though: why did you have a desire to work excessively, and what did you get out of it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Great read! Opened my eyes and answered some questions for me that I didn't even know I needed to ask. Also explained why no matter where I end up, I feel burned out within six months; work hero syndrome to say the least though I was unaware given no definition. Good stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey there,

Thanks so much for the kind words. It took us a long time (and a crisis) to articulate it properly. When you burned out, how did you get over it?

Max

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I know of companies where working overtime is "expected" and where accumulating a certain amount of overtime hours per year is seen as "commitment" or "dedication". They also have several employees who are out of action for months due to burnout.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's really unfortunate. Were the employees able to just take a few months off to relax?

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Don't you think that demanding that your employees leave at 5 pm is a compliance tactic in and of itself? Also, what are your 'obvious' reasons for why founders are treated differently and 'allowed' to work overtime?

<comment><USER6> Hey milang,

I'm Max's business partner. We do things that only really make sense to to outside of business hours right now. For instance every Monday before work we review all the projects the company has on its plate so we can be prepared for any conversations with staff at 9:00am.

Another example is that once a month we review every financial expense the company has so that we can build cash flow projections etc. Even as we grow we intend to keep our eyes in the back end of the business.

Another example might be research for a new product or service that is not currently generating revenue. Until we are willing to make a cash investment in the idea, the founders typically do interviews and customer development activities outside of business hours.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Good post; What I think is important to point out (and what I've always told people) is that overtime is a result of failure: failure of planning, process, time/task/scope/resource management, estimation, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> I completely agree. As long as we can recognize that these types of failures are the failures of management and the owners, not the employees. They shouldn't have to work overtime for the poor management of their leaders.

<comment><USER8> Great points by both of you. Couldn't agree more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Curious to know if this piece of company culture came about right from the get-go or if you started pushing this mentality once the company was stable and making steady revenue?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey Bijan,

We had this baked in from the get-go, although I don't see why a company couldn't start any time. We've always been protective of work-life balance, but it was hard to articulate why until recently.

<comment><USER8> It's a hard point to justify but you made a great case for it with the article.

I have lots to learn from you guys on culture!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hi, I'm Max and I wrote this article. You should read it if you've ever been asked to work overtime by your boss or by a client.</comment>


New Features in Java 14 - <AUTHOR> https://morioh.com/p/7f40652c03dc <comment><USER2> Looks rather like type inference and type hinting, than real pattern matching as in for example Erlang or pmatch in Scheme.</comment>


Adding clarity to switch statements: a humble PHP feature proposal - <AUTHOR> http://shinyplasticbag.posterous.com/php-feature-proposal

<comment><USER2> I don't see what this provides aside from redundant verbosity... How much a stumbling block is switch really?

"Oh you mean it just keeps going until you break? Okay, duly noted."

Fall through switch is quite useful, and if you really wanted an if-else, you'd use one, right?!

</comment><comment><USER3> I like what Perl does: it separates cases by making them look like regular blocks:

        given($cat_macro){
            when(/OH HAI/){
                say "ceiling cat is watching you switch statements";
            }
            when(/OH NOES/){
                die "FAIL";
            }
            default {
                say "<picture of a walrus with a bucket>";
            }
        }

Pretty easy to follow the control flow, even when they aren't oneliners.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's not bad. I take it you you could have "when(foo or bar)" to handle multiple cases?

<comment><USER4> given/when are better than that; see [http://perldoc.perl.org/perlsyn.html#Smart-matching-in- detai...](http://perldoc.perl.org/perlsyn.html#Smart-matching-in-detail) for all of the possibilities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've got this great idea. Instead of :

next;

have:

// Continue through next case

The best part is that it's built into the language!!

<comment><AUTHOR> As mentioned in the entry, the idea of having an actual keyword is a bit better than that. In particular, it would make it feasible for a strict notice to be raised if neither keyword was used.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> The example implementation loses out on what actually putting it in the language would gain, though: causing an error when forgetting to include next; or break;.

<comment><USER7> I would really love for it to be an error to include neither, but that would be a massively backwards-incompatible change.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure, but it could raise an E_STRICT.

<comment><USER8> That would still be a massively backwards-incompatible change. Lots of people run using E_STRICT.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Better solution would be getting rid of "break" and breaking by default like VB but no one would like that...

<comment><AUTHOR> Actually, that's not a better solution -- case fall through is remarkably handy. It's just a problem if it happens by accident.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> switch in C syntax is terrible implemented, VB done this one so much better. That's one of the reasons why switch is not that popular in C languages (people tend to do crazy if-then-else stuff) and so popular in VB, most devs tries to use select where possible.

<comment><AUTHOR> Does VB have a switch statement, or do you mean select? (Not nitpicking, just curious. It's been a while since I used it.)

<comment><USER9> I mean select

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> switch($some_value) { case 1 : doSomething(); case 2 : doSomething(); break; case 3 : doSomethingElse(); break; default : doSomething(); doSomethingElse(); }

</comment><comment><USER11> switch($some_value) { case 1 : doSomething(); case 2 : doSomething(); break; case 3 : doSomethingElse(); break; default : doSomething(); doSomethingElse(); }

Is there any reason why keeping things simple is not an option? The number of possible outcomes in a switch case can often be so many that falling through would just be the route to complicated and difficult to manage code.</comment>


Help HN: Free Burrito - <AUTHOR>

Anyone know someone in the startup world in SF struggling to build something and needs some help?<p>http://burrito.techendo.co/ <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable: [http://burrito.techendo.co/](http://burrito.techendo.co/)

<comment> wh-uws You should really disable the submit button and textarea once the form is submitted.

Wasn't sure it worked so I clicked it more than once lol

<comment><AUTHOR> that's fine. the email needs to be unique to be inserted into the db. :) simple is best in this case.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER2> (typo: "San Francisco Hack News" group)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a ton. :)</comment></comment>


Energy-efficient water purification made possible by Yale engineers - <AUTHOR> http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/14/energy.efficient.water.purification.made.possible.yale.engineers

<comment><USER2> I wonder how this compares to the Dean Kamen invention: [http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/03/colbert-and- kam.h...](http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/03/colbert-and-kam.html)

</comment><comment><USER3> Oasys - good name!

</comment><comment><USER4> Yale has an engineering school? ;)</comment>


BlueKeep (CVE-2019-0708) RDP scans detected per country - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/bad_packets/status/1132970504023764992 <comment><USER2> I wonder how many are honey pots ran by security researchers / companies.</comment>


Make or Break Your Life Between 5–7 AM - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/thrive-global/you-make-or-break-your-life-between-5-7-am-a7f4125e1326 <comment><USER2> I disagree with the main thesis of this article. I use 5-7am to sleep every day. I don't know why the author chose to pick these specific times as the only time you can organize your life. I would argue that being organized and reflecting on your goals etc. can be done whenever you feel like it. Doesn't have to be between 5-7am...

The article seems geared towards people with a 9-5 and kids. That's cool, but don't act like you are holier than thou for waking up at 5am and doing stuff. Plenty of organized healthy productive people who sleep during that time.</comment>


WebGL now in Beta: here comes the 3D web - <AUTHOR> http://blog.chromium.org/2010/12/webgl-now-in-beta-here-comes-3d-web.html

<comment><AUTHOR> Does this work well or at all on the Cr-48?

<comment><USER2> Nope. Not by default, anyway: <http://i.imgur.com/n6iqN.png></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Web development agency top tips for getting and holding onto clients - <AUTHOR> Starting a web development agency, what are some top tips for getting and holding onto clients<p>Here we are! http://studioliit.com <comment><USER2> Tip #1: Clients aren't going to trust an agency named 'Studio Liit'

#2 You may want to provide more specifics on what you can offer and things you've built to help answer your question. This post to me just looks like a way to get a link on HN.

<comment><USER3> Agree with all of this, especially the last sentence.

If you don't already know some "tips", you might wanna consider doing some more research before starting your company.

Also, if it's one guy, it's not an "agency".

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> So it's a web dev agency with a webpage that doesn't use HTTPS. Woahh!</comment>


What hardware and software would you pick to take your startup to IPO? - <AUTHOR>

Suspend MVP frugality for a moment. What platforms scale best for training people, TCO, security, etc as you grow from 3 people in one office to 350 people in 12 office locations and more remotely?
Machines, servers, phones, productivity, groupware, crm?
Founders with successful exits, what IT regrets did you have along the way? <comment><USER2> Product-market fit will solve your IT problems. Twitter had laughable infrastructure relative to its growth -- the butt of daily jokes, and it didn't matter at all. They had money to hire the right people and make the changes they needed to.

My advice -- keep it simple. Read [http://highscalability.com](http://highscalability.com) for stories on how others did it -- see YouTube for lessons on simplicity.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for feedback! I'm more concerned about employee collaboration (office365 vs google apps vs ???) and hardware (mac vs pc vs chromebook vs ???) at this juncture.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> You're worrying about the wrong things . . .

You'll need to choose all those based on what fits you, your CTO, your dev stack, your team and your culture.

Just throwing out some of my preferences . . .

mac, digital ocean, grasshopper, trello, google apps . . .</comment>


Huawei Should IPO in America - <AUTHOR> https://interconnected.blog/why-huawei-should-ipo-in-america/ <comment><USER2> Given current events and overwhelming negative evidence of Huawei's corporate behavior why would anyone sensible want this?</comment>


Twitter introduce the Follow Button - <AUTHOR> https://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk/browse_thread/thread/cb481a72e0d45cf2

<comment><USER2> I think this means Twitter has peaked. As in now they're trying hard to get existing users to "do more" (follow more people) because there's not many people signing up anymore. It's not like following people has been hard previously.

In exactly the same way that Facebook now doesn't have many people signing up, so instead they desperately keep shoving "People you may know!" at you, even though you've never heard of Ima Stalker before.

<comment><USER3> User acquisition will always peak at some stage for most companies (the universe being the total number of people with access to the internet), so the attempt drive more usage is not surprising.

I do believe, though, that Twitter has lost its way since end 2009 and are largely making stuff up as they go along. It is also fair to assume that they will have pressures to ramp up monetization as they run out of time to bridge the gap between potential and actual revenues. Such is the curse of an insanely high valuation.

<comment><USER4> agreed [when are the points coming back - 2600 to 1600 is a pretty clear vote]

<comment><USER5> It was a poll, not a vote. pg is going to do what he wants.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> How is this different than the follow button used on @Anywhere? <http://dev.twitter.com/anywhere/begin>

EDIT - It seems the flow is a little different. The user doesn't have to connect to the site first; it's just a one-click thing if you're already logged in. Pretty cool, except it seems a little buggy if you have SSL enabled on your Twitter account.

<comment><USER7> I had some issues rendering the follow button with HTTPS only enabled too. After a couple of page refreshes it seemed to start working.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This will be nice for those of us who use twitter as simply a news stream rather than a social tool. If I like a blog, I'd rather click the follow button on the blog itself rather than looking up the username and doing it through the twitter profile page.

<comment><USER9> What advantages are there for using twitter rather than RSS for this purpose?

<comment><USER10> Nobody uses RSS. I know because I struggled for months to build a more understandable feedreader (<http://readwarp.com>).

<comment><USER11> Oh come on. We've had this discussion about RSS before (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2060298> was the last big one), and plenty of people are using it in some capacity.

<comment><USER10> Perhaps I should have rephrased: few people use RSS. Orders of magnitude fewer than those using twitter. Do you agree?

<comment><USER12> An order of magnitude fewer people use RSS than use Twitter, but fewer people use Twitter for the use case that RSS serves than use RSS for that purpose.

<comment><USER10> I disagree. I think more people get their news from Twitter by following people they want to receive news from. What's more, the number of such people grows everyday, far faster than for RSS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The Follow button uses Twitter's "web intents" that have been available for a while now (<http://dev.twitter.com/pages/intents>).

You can also use web intents to do things like compose, reply, retweet, or favorite a tweet.

<comment><USER14> It's a little slicker than intents since it's one click when you're logged in. It dumps you to the normal intent page when not logged in, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Weird that they have an option to choose a language rather than just detecting the language of the browser and automatically translating the button.

<comment><USER16> I think it makes more sense to have the button match the language of the page content. It would be a bit jarring to see a single Japanese button on an otherwise English page.

<comment><USER17> Also, different button sizes can destroy layouts. Consider Facebook: "Like" in German becomes "Gefällt mir"...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's just a button, is this really worth the hoopla? I find it funny how Twitter can make the deal out of the most ordinary thing, like Fail Whale and of course the "Follow Button".</comment>


6 tips on how *not* to be a terrible manager - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/carwow-product-engineering/6-tips-on-how-not-to-be-a-terrible-manager-eec92a8dd217 <comment><USER2> To the "be a zero" tip, I would add that it's important to learn to trust your assessment of a situation so that you can move in the direction of being a 1 (vs. 0 or -1) when it matters. There are two concerns here: leadership and management. It's important to build skill and the trust of your team as a leader as a you develop as a manager.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> that's a really good point, being a zero is a good starting point but can't stay there forever otherwise you'll never grow as a manager!</comment>


Softlaunch of buddhalists, not just another todo list app. - <AUTHOR> http://buddhalists.com/

<comment><USER2> I'm not thrilled about the name.

First, it seems pretty disrespectful to use religious imagery, etc., for a commercial product, especially if you are not a practitioner of said religion. This is doubly worrisome by the text that seems to suggest that "zen" (or, rather, Zen) and "Buddhism" are interchangeable concepts. They're not.

Second, if you are a practitioner, you're undoubtedly aware of the large role that lists play in Buddhism-- which means that it's a bit deceptive to have a product named "Buddhalists" (or Buddalists-- see below) and not have the product based on the traditional Buddhist conception of lists.

Third: you don't even get the spelling straight on your own headline. That's scary.

<comment><USER3> I have to agree with you (I'm a Buddhist). Anyway, it doesn't make me feel any worse than what I'd feel of jesuslist or something. The problem is, not many happen to think like me. Some people get very much offended.

So the name won't go well with any serious app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> From a design point of view (I'm a designer), I think you went overboard. When I am working I don't want anything getting in the way between me and the list items.

In your analysis of your competitors, for Workflowy you said that it's confusing to have many nested lists (I'm paraphrasing here), but the thing is—I find WorkFlowy way more logical than your service. The nesting is a visual guide for the user, letting them know where they are within the tree.

At first I couldn't figure our how to check items off, but then I noticed the little tiny "x" to the right, dangerously close to the ">>". Feel free to beef that one up, and space these two out. Also, apparently I can't check off the last item in the list? That's strange, but it might be a bug.

Lastly, I love the help overlay, nice!

</comment><comment><USER5> hmm...back blaze charges 5 dollars a month to back up my computer with unlimited storage. you're charging 10 dollars a month for unlimited nested strings.

the computer says..........no.

silliness aside, maybe try a forum for busy execs. Might get better input & target customers.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Proud to announce the (soft) launch of <http://buddhalists.com/>, my first foray into paid SaaS web apps. Please read on before tossing this out as "yet another todo list app".

<http://buddhalists.com/> <http://buddhalists.com/demo/> <http://buddhalists.com/signup/>

But first the story. I create web apps I would use, mainly so I can use them. I find myself taking lists for all sorts of things, and wishing I could digitize them somehow. <http://buddhalists.com/> is the solution for me. I sampled every list app in the app store (a good $60 worth) and found that they were

1\. mostly focused on todo lists

2\. either too simple (think one page list) or too complex (think color coded tags with autosort built in)

3\. Always limited to either managing one list, or several flat lists. I was hoping for recursion.

This is what <http://buddhalists.com/> brings to the table. Simple unconstraining lists with nice design, no rules, and infinite recursion. For more explanation, see the demo. For a more detailed breakdown as to why other list taking solutions were non ideal, see <http://pastebin.com/QVynrfkC>.

As far as tech goes, mongodb with nodejs backend, spine.js powered javascript heavy UI. Stripe for payments.

<comment><USER6> Edit: Realized you discussed WorkFlowy in your analysis.

I find the name distasteful. Would you be comfortable releasing an app called jesuslists? Same idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I like the simplicity of this. Like headsclouds, I couldn't figure out at first how to make "sub" items. Due to old habits, I kept trying to hit "tab" to indent a new item.

Now for the hard part. In a previous career, I used to spend a lot of time with marketers. They always used to talk about "share of wallet" and the phrase stuck with me. In short: Unless someone is loose with their cash, there's a limited amount of money they're going to want to spend on online subscriptions (of any kind). Given that your app is actually _more_ expensive than a month of Netflix or Amazon Prime, how do you justify the price?

Note: I'm _not_ saying you need to lower your price, just that you need to be more explicit about the value proposition. Especially because stuff like Tadalist and Workflowy are free or freemium offerings.

</comment><comment><USER8> How do you want to compete with Evernote?

It's available as a web app, native apps for iOS, MacOS, Windows (all my platforms, also Android, Windows Phone, Blackberry), and it works great on all platforms. It syncs so I have native access everywhere. It supports some minimal formatting, but doesn't get in the way. It works great for managing multiple notes, kind of like an Inbox. Notes are private be default, but I can share them with people or make them public.

Oh, and Evernote is free.

So, what problem are you solving for $10 that Evernote doesn't solve much better for free?

Also, Evernote has $95M funding, so their velocity is probably 100x yours.

 _PS: This is a harsh comment, but the intention is constructive. If you don't have good answers to these questions, then it's back to the drawing board!_

</comment><comment><USER9> Works quite nicely, I like it. One small suggestion -- if I push right inside the text box, and I've just come from pushing left, then go back to that item. For example, say I'm looking at the shopping list in your demo. I'm on "get veggies". I want to add tomato, but I can't remember if I had a "get fruits" category. So I push left, glance down, see that I don't and decide to put tomato into veggies anyway. Then I push right and nothing happens. Instead, where possible, right should move me back, so I can go left-right and be back where I started. Bonus points for left-left-left-right-right-right working :)

</comment><comment><USER10> This is in no way a criticism of the actual app, but has building a to-do list become our day's "writing your own text editor"? Fascinating how a new one seems to pop up every day.

<comment><USER11> I think it is because of the fact that lists usually are super individual and must fit someones workflow.

I actually wrote my own the other day. I have tested a LOT of websites and apps but everything seems too cluttered.

So I made my own with these points in mind: \- MINIMAL \- Minimal functions. OR they should be invisible until needed. (arrows to the right on the site) + (statistics icon with hover on right to the top) \- Multiple lists (categories) on ONE page so that they does not disappear. \- Chrome extension for adding things \- BONUS: Some kind of achievment system would be nice for keeping you motivated. Points for completing and -points for failing to-dos.

Works for me, others might not like it.

<http://wingerlang.se/demo/> Links on bottom to category-view (wich is like "archive" and not like the to-do list) things can be moved around by clicking the arrow-link

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I think 10$ for an obvious weekend hack is quite a lot.

<comment><USER13> _obvious weekend hack_

But people will pay $300 for a lawyer writing a letter which says, attached to the letter, "This took forty eight minutes to write."

And this is why you should never, never take pricing advice on HN.

[Edit: My conclusion here was excessively strong. Working on a blog post now, because I feel the need to vent a little about this. $10 is not a lot of money. Customers do not pay for how much you appeared to have worked. Argh.]

<comment><USER12> The lawyer charges you once. Also, the lawyer charges you alone.

Also, lawyers are overpriced, but that's another story.

<comment><USER12> Genuinely wondering how my pointing out that monthly subscription fees aren't one-time service fees deserves me downvotes?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Apart from having a name and style that tries to invoke 'zenlike' feelings, what does the app actually do that makes it stand out? There are 1000+1 todo apps, many of which focussing on the 'less is more' principle. I don't see how this app is different, apart from charging a really soothing $10 per month....

</comment><comment><USER15> Putting name and price aside I don't like deep nesting approach for lists. I tend to have too many levels and it's cumbersome to click so many times. I like to have an option to see all my tasks at same level and get nice overview of everything I want to do.

</comment><comment><USER16> (1) you've spelled the product name two different ways in the first 3 lines.

(2) why would I pay $10/month for this when checkvist does this and more for $0/month?

(3) the help overlay is nice.

(4) interaction on lists not intuitive.

</comment><comment><USER17> Nice app and all, but I don't see myself paying $10 for something I could easily replicate in a day. Not trying to be mean or anything, but perhaps I'm not the target market here.

</comment><comment><USER18> seems like an excessively designed analog of <http://workflowy.com/>, which is awesome and simple, and arguably more Zen

</comment><comment><USER19> Would I be far off the mark if I thought this is something like org-mode without the Emacs? (And yes, you should get the title right.)

</comment><comment><USER20> My 2 cents : Google Tasks blows this out of the water.

</comment><comment><USER21> nice that you are using spine - it is a great little framework</comment>


Bop.fm (YC S13) brings on-demand streaming to Pandora - <AUTHOR> https://gigaom.com/2014/09/16/bop-fm-wants-to-bring-on-demand-streaming-to-pandora-users/

<comment><USER2> Now I have a reason to use Pandora again.

</comment><comment><USER3> Wow been wanting something like this for awhile now. Seamless desktop web experience, really enjoying this.</comment>


Show HN: Pyronos – Simple and sweet load testing module in Python - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/0x01h/pyronos <comment><USER2> This looks interesting! One question:

      * I see the "-s" option allows you to specify the number of sequential requests.

      * Can you specify the number concurrent requests: ie 10 requests/sec?

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your interest!

No, you cannot send concurrent requests using -s flag. :)</comment></comment>


Physicists May Have Discovered a New "Tetraquark" Particle - <AUTHOR> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/physicists-may-have-discovered-a-new-tetraquark-particle/ <comment><USER2> Question: Four quarks, or two quarks & two anti-quarks?

Answer: Not anywhere in the Scientific American article. Also, not in the abstract of the paper. Actually have to read the paper, to find out that the claimed tetra-quark is 2 quarks & 2 anti-quarks.

<comment><USER3> Pretty sure you can't have one with 4 quarks, there'd be no way to make it colourless (so it couldn't occur in isolation). It seems 2 quarks and 2 anti- quarks is the only possible combination.

The paper probably considers this 'basic knowledge' which is why they didn't mention it in the abstract. Not sure why the Scientific American article doesn't mention it but maybe they didn't want to explain colour charges.</comment></comment>


Steve Fossett may be alive, investigator claims - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/28/fosset_claims/

<comment><USER2> Title is incomplete... How about,

       Insurance company investigator blows enough smoke to defer paying $50m payout.

I particularly like the part where the air search guy asserts that find 6 previously unfound planes means they are "pretty good at what we do."

<comment><USER3> Indeed. From the article:

 _Lieutenant Colonel Cynthia Ryan of the US Civil Air Patrol, who was involved in the operation from the start, said: "I've been doing this search and rescue for 14 years. Fossett should have been found. It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do."_

I like the clever citation of the fact that six (!) previous crashes have been _missed_ by S&R personnel to argue that S&R efforts are robust and free of errors. Now that's some prime-time quality spin. This woman needs to get out of her CAP job and into politics where her skills can be properly appreciated.

<comment><USER4> From what I understand from reading the articles a few months back, they were able to find downed airplanes from a long time ago where technology weren't capable or where manpower weren't expandable. So, yes, the fact that their team was able to scour the vast areas of Nevada and recover multiple planes should be indicative at least in a bit of how they really did try to find Fosset.

Some other interesting details surrounding this: [http://gawker.com/5029726/international-adventurer-may- have-...](http://gawker.com/5029726/international-adventurer-may-have-faked- his-own-death)

PS: Being in CAP _is_ equivalent of getting a political job where worthless skills are appreciated.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting link, although the words 'News of the World' are a bit of a red flag. Also, the 'evidence' they mention could just as well be taken as support for suicide rather than a faked death.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> "We found six other planes while we were looking for him"

Seriously? Maybe people should fake their deaths more often, apparently it really helps them out :)

<comment><AUTHOR> 'Kim Toulouse, a spokesman for the Nevada Department of Wildlife, described the empty valleys being scoured for the millionaire adventurer as an aviation "graveyard".

"We're finding them left and right," he said. "The technology we have today is allowing us to find this stuff." These wrecks are years, sometimes decades old.'

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6987855.stm>

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> "Steve has not accessed any of his assets since his disappearance."

Interesting choice of words.

<comment><USER7> Well, if you saw bank or credit card activity that would be a big red flag that something fishy is going on.

<comment><USER8> Correct, but it's phrased as if he's alive. Which helps make it sound more fishy than it really is (not fishy at all).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I bet he's hiding out with Elvis in Mexico eating burgers and enjoying cheap tequila.

Insurance companies will try to find any reason not to pay out...

</comment><comment><USER10> Maybe Google can find him, they're good at finding things. If not, try that new search engine, Cuil.

<comment><USER11> Don't know why you're being downmodded. Personally, I think that's hilarious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Payouts are considered losses by insurance companies and $50M is a lot of money. It's a legitimate question and probably standard policy to ask if a claim is a scam.</comment>


Britons could pay a fee to retain EU membership - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/11/26/guy-verhofstadt-britons-could-pay-a-fee-to-keep-eu-citizenship-post-brexit/#797412e93e64 <comment><USER2> The argument from the parliament and the commission has always been that if the UK wants the single market it gets the other bits too, with freedom of movement being the biggest issue.

Obviously britons would still be able to get into the EU via some sort of visa system, and it's profoundly unclear if that is what Guy has suggested or exactly how many extra rights come with it. It is unlikely for instance that this EU fee would affect things like the ease moving between benefits systems because that would probably be handled by bilateral treaties.

<comment><USER3> Perhaps my sinister friends at HN will enjoy poetry:

        Turning and turning in the widening gyre
        The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

        Surely some revelation is at hand;
        Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
        The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
        When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
        Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
        A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
        A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
        Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
        Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

        The darkness drops again but now I know
        That twenty centuries of stony sleep
        Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
        And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
        Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

With potential French and Italian exits coming up, 2016-2017 is going to get interesting. I think possibly the Danes, definitely the Dutch and Austrians are already lost.

Another factor is that although Trump probably won't abandon NATO, he could force Germany onto the horns of an awkward dilemma. Pay for protection or pay for a pan-European army. I think the migrant flows from North Africa and the Middle East become fiscally untenable. Merkel is changing direction but perhaps she is too late to the party, Bulgaria is already starting mass deportations and I think the Northern Alliance is sure to storm the Rubicon.

Now attention swings to Turkey as their idiot demands escalate. This could get quite ugly. Putin must be beside himself with glee! The Yanks must be staring at those nuclear warheads like a hawk (eagle?) giving a rabbit a penetrating glare.

tldr; 2017 = 2016++

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "It is totally unacceptable for certain citizens in the UK to subject themselves to laws which are created by politicians who are not accountable the British people as a whole."

I found that to be slightly amusing. Any Briton who takes the option is not being subjected to laws, as they would at home, but voluntarily opting into a different set of additional laws. While they may have less government protection from those laws, in theory, they aren't taking them up blindly.</comment>


Show HN: GitCompare – Easily compare open source projects - <AUTHOR> https://gitcompare.com/ <comment><USER2> The information that is valuable to me is...

Does a project have:

\- passing unit tests with reasonable coverage

\- reported issues, including closed issues

\- peer review process and continuous integration

\- a large number of unique contributors

\- proper versioning

\- compliant and compatible licensing

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hey Guys,

First of all, thanks for the feedback!

Regarding the icons, I was trying to build the tables with some sort of visual cues, if it's not helpful, it'll be removed, @cimmanom what do you mean by the second part?

@partycoder thanks for the guidance, we'll work hard to get all those data points, i'd even like to add an ability to for advanced user to request a customized summary what'd you think about that? Still looking into figuring out tests though, for now, i've been thinking about importing the tags from the readme

<comment><USER3> > _First of all, thanks for the feedback!_

Make thicker lines on "Summary" charts, because currently it's too thin.[0]

Please, add also option for export report as PNG/SVG/PDF file, in style like _Web-capture_ [1] or _URL2PNG_ [2]

[0] [http://i.imgur.com/1mpMB3h.png](http://i.imgur.com/1mpMB3h.png)

[1] [https://web-capture.net/](https://web-capture.net/)

[2] [https://www.url2png.com/](https://www.url2png.com/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, we'll make the charts clearer, easy export is indeed in need, taking a look into your suggestions.

Also it'll be great if you could send me your report URL to make sure I managed to make it clearer.

<comment><USER3> Also, as you can see my screenshot it's look like "Engagements" & "Maintenance" ignored on "Summary" charts. So, as result there only horizontal lines on the graph, instead diamond-shaped graph

> _send me your report URL_

Here[0] it is.

[0] [https://gitcompare.com/report?packages=librecad%2Flibrecad&p...](https://gitcompare.com/report?packages=librecad%2Flibrecad&packages=librecad%2Flibrecad_3&packages=qcad%2Fqcad)

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, thanks, i thought i saw it in the image, will take care of it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Neat! I'm finding the icons being used for the table headings unhelpful, though. Can only decipher two from "activity" (recency and issue count, I think).</comment>


Show HN: Elegant way to store data in Swift - siam-biswas https://github.com/siam-biswas/Storage <comment> siam-biswas Storage is a generic solution for data persistency in swift. As there are multiple ways to store data locally in iOS apps, Storage made it easier for you to use them with one single tool. Currently storage has support to work with UserDefaults, Keychain, FileManager & Plist.</comment>


The $100 Tablet, $85 Netbook - <AUTHOR> http://www.thechromesource.com/the-100-tablet-85-netbook/ <comment><USER2> This is really a garbage submission (sorry).

The 7" tablet has "ARM 11 chip by Samsung, 2GB of storage and 256 MB of RAM" with a "price point" of $100. Yeah, sure, and I have a "price point" of $100M for the URL shortening service I wrote in BASIC. Any interested buyers please contact me.

This article/link has about as much useful and accurate data as a 1000 word stream of blogtext from a random word generator.</comment>


Bash Shell Scripting in 10 seconds - <AUTHOR> http://www.aboutlinux.info/2005/10/10-seconds-guide-to-bash-shell.html <comment><USER2> Linked article is actually a really horrible intro to bash -- at best, it is an OK intro to pre-POSIX bourne shell scripting.

Specifically:

* test and [ ] are fraught with parameter expansion peril. Use [[ ]] instead.

* The author uses single quotes around strings that are demonstrating parameter expansion. Single quotes inhibit parameter expansion, so every one of those examples is wrong.

* select is a better tool than read; case for most of his case-relasted demos.

* Backticks ( ` ` ) are the devil.

At least he points people greg's wiki at the end.

<comment><USER3> Do you know of a better intro? I wasn't even aware of [[ ]] :(

<comment><USER2> <http://mywiki.wooledge.org/EnglishFrontPage>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Took longer than 10 seconds, but a helpful introduction nonetheless.

</comment><comment><USER5> Small nitpick:

for file in _.java; do javac $file; done

This will break if the filename contains funky characters like newline or whitespaces. You should prefer using find instead:

find . -name '_.java' -exec javac {} \\+

Also, I would suggest adding a pragaraph about proper quoting, I usually find it to be an issue beginners struggle with the most.

<comment><USER2> Find is overkill for this.

      for file in *.java; do
         [[ -f $file ]] || continue
         javac "$file"
      done

<comment><USER5> This would avoid errors on the files with whitespaces, however it will also avoid compiling them. You cannot make the assumption that a file with a whitespace _should not_ be compiled.

<comment><USER6> It will compile files with whitespaces. That's what [[]] is for.

<comment><USER5> No it won't, [[ -f $file ]] will fail and `continue` will be executed, moving on to the next iteration of the loop. Think of the different successive values the $file variable will have. At no point, will it hold the full name of the file at once.

<comment><USER6> I think you're confused. I just tried this in a few shells.

It works in Bash on Cygwin and OS X.

        touch "file with spaces"
        for f in *; do if [[ -f $f ]]; then echo file: $f; fi; done;

This echoes one line for "file with spaces".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Thank you! I've been looking for a condensed yet thorough overview of bash for quite some time. I use bash only sporadically and I am never successful when googling easy things like how to test for equality of numbers.

</comment><comment><USER8> I wish I'd found this a long time ago. It took me forever to discover the totally un-googlable but super useful bash variable $?

Dumb, I know, but sometimes the obvious beginner stuff is easy to overlook.

</comment><comment><USER9> Quoting typo:

      echo $IFS | od -bc

only makes sense as

      echo "$IFS" | od -bc

</comment><comment><USER10> 10?

<comment><USER11> I suppose that if one were a Bash God, as being any other sort of God, "one day is as a thousand years, and one thousand years is as a day." This implies that you routinely underestimate time by a factor of 365 250. That number of seconds would be about 4.2 days, so to a Bash God, 10 seconds is as 42 days.

42 days is I guess a reasonable estimate for learning Bash if you're really new and coming from Windows -- but perhaps it's a little too much; you could probably get fluent in two weeks if you really focused and already knew the basics of programming.

So the Bash Gods should clearly revise the number down to three seconds.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why my account not able to give a point? - <AUTHOR>

I'm trying to support some posts I found useful but it doesn't seem to work.. ? <comment><USER2> I don't know, but when I try to look at your account info your average is also blank.

<comment><AUTHOR> What does that mean?

<comment><USER2> Your average is the average score for all of your posts, submissions. I have no idea what it means if it is blank.

Your best bet is probably to submit a bug report: [https://github.com/HackerNews/HN](https://github.com/HackerNews/HN) It looks like kogir responds to bugs pretty quickly.

<comment><USER3> Please send problems with accounts to firstname.lastname@example.com.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Surface Pro with Linux - <AUTHOR> I am a doctoral student and was given a Surface Pro as part of the program. It is pre-loaded with SPSS and other packages used in our courses.
Being a long-time MBP user, I was skeptical. But, I've since become hooked on its stylus and its use as an e-reader (the other reason the school hands these out).
I'd like to do a full linux install on the machine but don't want to lose support for the stylus and the nice e-reader functionality (highlighting with the stylus, writing in margins, auto screen orientation, etc).
At the moment the furthest I've gone is enabling the linux subsystem that allows one to run linux command line tools. Through that I use bash, vim, R, etc. but would prefer a full GUI install.
If I could accomplish that, I might retire my MBP completely as the Surface Pro is so functional.
Thoughts? Anyone running linux on a Surface Pro? <comment><USER2> I think you should look here [https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/) for more information.</comment>


Privacy in Software • Emma Arfelt - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o06go4k_zRU <comment><USER2> I enjoyed this presentation; nicely done Emma. During the presentation Emma expresses her wish that companies should think about whether the complexity of their terms and conditions are having a negative impact by obscuring their meaning to anyone but a lawyer. She speaks about how delighted she would be to read a terms and conditions that had just three simple to understand bullet points.

Emma mentions that the big Giants like Facebook purposefully obscure the true meaning of their terms and conditions, so it is doubtful that they would ever consider simplifying them. For the socially ethical privacy protecting companies out there, I don't see them simplifying their terms and conditions either sadly. I believe that they are too afraid of being sued and so they make sure that they have a lawyer write those terms and conditions. In the legal world their are certain expectations that those terms and conditions must conform to for them to hold up in court, at least that is my understanding.

Still, it would be nice to see some terms and conditions that are only 3 honest and direct bullet points long.</comment>


Cloud IDEs: The importance of being open - <AUTHOR> http://blog.codebox.io/cloud-ide-the-importance-of-being-open/

<comment><USER2> The chart that is included is ridiculous. There's no label on the Y-axis at all, and zero indication of what it is we're supposed to take away from it.

Professor Tufte is weeping somewhere.

<comment><USER3> Here it is with visual studio and intellij terms overlayed.

[http://www.google.com/trends/explore?hl=en- US#q=cloud%20ide%...](http://www.google.com/trends/explore?hl=en- US#q=cloud%20ide%2C%20desktop%20ide%2C%20intellij%2C%20visual%20studio&date=1%2F2010%2048m&cmpt=q)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Open is nice, just don't make it Crippleware.</comment>