The Great Chinese Exodus - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-great-chinese-exodus-1408120906

<comment><USER2> I think these articles are kind of missing the main point. I don't really care who buys the multi-million dollar houses since I'm never going to be in that market anyway.

The issue that we are seeing is investors (Chinese and otherwise) who are just plonking money in the real-estate market for normal homes. The homes we are seeing right now are pretty basic in the sense that a first-time home buyer would not be considering them if they had a million dollars cash in the bank. Yet these homes are going for all cash or 50% down -- I think the main reason is people with extra money have few options to park their cash; since asset prices across the board (and across the globe) are at all-time-highs.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/upshot/welcome-to-the- ever...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/08/upshot/welcome-to-the-everything- boom-or-maybe-the-everything-bubble.html)

<comment><USER3> I wonder if this is going to increase the political will for additional housing to be built in San Francisco, as indeed is very badly needed?

<comment><USER4> Unlikely. The less that is built, the more the value of the existing housing stock goes up.

<comment><USER5> Yep, the SF Bay Area housing policy really is a big example of "I've got mine, so fuck you".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It is said that a big factor in the rise of property values in SF is the money coming in from China.

A realtor friend of mine here in SF was narrating the tale of a house (on Pacific Heights, one of prime neighborhoods) going for sale for $2.7M, and ending up being sold for $3.5M after a bidding war... between 2 Chinese men, both of whom were in China, and were buying the property sight-unseen, all cash.

[http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2014/05/02/catering-to- chi...](http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2014/05/02/catering-to-chinese- buyers-in-san-franciscos-real-estate-market/#22929101=0)

<comment><USER7> I find it a bit smarmy the realtors who imply they can get your property attention from these out of the country investors. It reminds me of the old trick of the realtor showing you a picture of the buyers to enable discrimination without actually bringing it into the conversation.

That said, for a number of foreign nationals buying real estate is a more durable way of expatriating wealth because it is hard to 'freeze' and it can be difficult to claw back. During the Iranian crisis there was a student at USC in my dorm whose parents were sending him money by first buying a number of houses in west LA and then funneling the rent money to him as his monthly allowance. It seemed very creative.

<comment><USER8> Wait - so they could freely send money from Iran to the US to purchase houses worth millions, but they couldn't send thousands as allowance but instead had to rely on said houses' rent? That seems weird.

<comment><USER9> It was possible to move money but difficult. Doing so once in a lump sum meant you wouldn't have to worry about the reliability of regular bank transfers across borders or fear your accounts being frozen once you were successful a single time. Seizing a house is much more difficult than freezing a bank account.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> My parents moved to the US in the late 80s. A few years ago, they moved back to China. Most of my Chinese co workers from their generation also plan to retire back in China.

On paper, there is no comparison between American and China. Cleaner air, food, and water, better Transportation, more stable government, etc. But eventually these immigrants hit a ceiling at work or miss some intangible quality about their homeland.

<comment><USER11> Most of my Chinese classmates had plans to move back, but after they had kids there was just no way. It's not just the pollution, but school system and education fees. After they had a second and third child, legally they just couldn't go back.

Some say they will go back on retirement. But at that point it doesn't really matter.

<comment><USER12> This is the same dilemma that 1st generation Indian immigrants also struggle with. Sir V.S. Naipaul compares it to being 'Shipwrecked'. You've arrived at a new land where you don't know anyone and build your life from scratch. You spend enough time here, but still don't "fit in" to the culture because you did not grow up here. Festivals are alien (ex: Halloween), holidays are alien (ex: Thanksgiving Day). You hit ceilings at work because the promotions in corporate america are mostly reserved for white men in their 40s. Your kids grow up here, and experience High School, Prom, College, Internship and such, and they have no idea what you are talking about when you say you miss the homeland. You can't leave either, because you've put down roots, probably had some kids, and back home, things have changed dramatically, and even if you go back for good, you don't "fit in" there either, because you are always treated as the "NRI" \- Non Resident Indian.

So after a decade or two,you are neither here nor there, essentially "shipwrecked" in America.

<comment><USER11> I don't know about the glass ceiling. Our CEO is from India (bet you can guess the company), many of our SVPs are Chinese. As a white male approaching his 40s, I'm not quite sure how promotion will work for me when all of our managers in my local site are ethnic Chinese (granted, I work in China and there aren't many foreigner datapoints).

In high school, I had a lot of ABCD classmates, and there parents were incredibly successful in the Seattle area, especially at Boeing. They had no problem going into management.

<comment><USER13> > I don't know about the glass ceiling. Our CEO is from India (bet you can > guess the company).

The fact that I can guess the company implies a glass ceiling.

<comment><USER14> What did you guess though... Microsoft? Adobe? Pepsi? Mastercard?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> China has been allowing domestic yuan conversion for western property purchases, boosting real estate demand in Vancouver, NY, SF & elsewhere, [http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Secret+path+revealed+Ch...](http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Secret+path+revealed+China+billions+buying+foreign+real/10029551/story.html?__federated=1)

 _"... trial program was introduced in 2011 for overseas property purchases and emigration ... Once approved, the customer and the bank agree on an exchange rate before the funds are moved to an overseas account designated by the customer. Money destined for real estate would go directly to the property seller's account to ensure the cash won't be misused ...

HSBC ... offers its Chinese clients another way to access offshore mortgages while avoiding the cap on foreign-exchange conversion ... Customers deposit yuan with HSBC's mainland unit or purchase its wealth-management products, and the bank's overseas branch then issues a foreign-currency denominated mortgage using the China deposits as collateral."_

</comment><comment><USER16> Reminds me of the old comment from Deng Xiao Ping to President Jimmy Carter, whom first exchanged ambassadors between countries. Jimmy complained about China's restrictive emmigration policy and lack of human rights. Deng retorted "How many do you want? 10 million, 20 million?" That shut Jimmy up. But it may be finally coming true.

<comment><USER17> Did the end of the article remind you of this story?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Chinese up and comers lack viable access to financial products. Couldn't it be said, that american home-ownership-interestees (or people in London) are paying a premium that is due to the lack of choices to store your earnings if you were born in the PRC? Due to the lack of good government in China?

I wondered, if the one-sidedness in profiting from globalization would bite us back in the west. Yes, industries were outsourced, middle classes eroded but overall most people could afford ever more goods for ever less money, as long as there are enough third world peasants to put in factories (Which still seemed like a good deal for both, the 99% percent of the first and the third world).

I suppose it is getting back at us in the form of absurdly sky-rocketing asset prices?

</comment><comment><USER19> I had an ex-wife who helped move rich Chinese families to the US. She said their biggest concern was simply that you only get rich in China if you have a friend in the government and if you lose that friend or that friend loses power in the once every four years shake up, then your money gets taken away. Her clients bought million dollars homes, luxury cars with next years model, etc. all with cash. Typically they couldn't speak any English and moved to Chinese neighborhoods in Long Island and other places.

<comment><USER11> The cycle is 5 years, but effectively 10 years because re-election (by the CCP) of the in-government is almost guaranteed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> "Another aspect of this massive population outflow hasn't yet drawn much attention. Whatever their motives and wherever they go, those who depart will be shadowed by the organs of the Leninist state they've left behind. A sprawling bureaucracy—the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of the State Council—exists to ensure that distance from the motherland doesn't dull their patriotism. Its goal is to safeguard loyalty to the Communist Party."

That quote reminded me of this[1] New Yorker article on the first case of "economic espionage." It's an interesting read and a look into a different kind of "spying."

[1] [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/05/05/a-new-kind- of-s...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/05/05/a-new-kind-of-spy)

</comment><comment><USER21> There is already over million Chinese working and living in Africa. Chinese entrepreneurs, workers etc.

<comment><USER22> over 400k Africans work and live in china too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> The article mentions that China gets 6,895 investor visas whereas a country like South Korea gets 364 visas. Given that China is 1,350 mio. people whereas South Korea is 50 mio., the ratio is really 7.3 visa pr. mio. South Korean compared to 5.1 visas pr. mio. Chinese.

In the 80es there was a huge buying spree by the Japanese in California and other places. That stopped when Japan's economy popped in the early 90es.

Today realestate in China is priced extremely high and that creates a lot for surplus capital for the Chinese to invest. The high realestate price level of China may persist for a while but not forever and this buying will probably stop as the Japanese did.

<comment><USER24> >Last year, the U.S. issued 6,895 visas to Chinese nationals under the EB-5 program, which allows foreigners to live in America if they invest a minimum of $500,000. South Koreans, the next largest group, got only 364 such visas. Canada this year closed down a similar program that had been swamped by Chinese demand.

The fact that Canada closed down an immigration program where each individual would bring in $500k to the economy is just depressing. So much immigration law is just pure, unabashed racism.

<comment><USER25> The problem can be, and you see it a bit in Australia, is that they end up pricing everybody else out of the market.

<comment><USER24> If this were just about buying houses I understand that reasoning, but if its an investor visa, I imagine you need to actually put that money into something "productive".

<comment><USER26> You only needed to lend it to the government for a few years

<comment><USER27> If the assumptions behind GDP are valid, government spending may also be considered "productive".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> > A sprawling bureaucracy—the Overseas Chinese Affairs Office of the State > Council—exists to ensure that distance from the motherland doesn't dull > their patriotism. Its goal is to safeguard loyalty to the Communist Party.

This will only work for one generation. Once their children assimilate in the West, China will be foreign to them.

<comment><USER29> I know a few 1st generation Chinese kids (age 8-18). It was interesting to see some of them posting very pro-Chinese stuff to Facebook a few months ago when the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands dispute was heating up.

Usually they just post about kids stuff.

<comment><USER28> This is will change for the children younger than 10; I've experienced this first hand.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Upper middle class Chinese have been buying "business visas" to immigrate to countries like US and Canada. You either transfer a business with certain threshhold of jobs/revenues or buy into a special bond fund devote to job./business creation. Typically these visas are around one million dollars. On the surface this sounds preferable to letting broke immigrant relatives who could become welfare dependents. Canada recently suspended their program due to a tenfold increase in applications, nearly all Chinese. The US's problem is they let private organizations create the investment funds, of which several have been pure scams.

</comment><comment><USER30> How is the education system broken in China?

I thought China is supposed to be cranking out millions of STEM graduates each year, some of which the US will import as H1B. Is it broken in the same way as the US education system, or is it all just a myth?

<comment><USER31> A better description may be that the Chinese system has a lot more pressure from all the competitions, while the instructions are not quite up to the standards at the college level.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Fwiw, I live in Sunnyvale and have seen this exodus first hand on several occasions. In fact, just yesterday, a friend from Shanghai moved into a modest home in Sunnyvale for $1m. Her husband owns a string of dry cleaning centers in Shanghai and obtained an investor visa ($750k).

Last month I hosted a friend from Shanghai who owns a successful factory. He is actively scouting for real estate in the $1m - $2m range for his son. He considered the area "very cheap" compared to Shanghai prices.

I know of several other Chinese professionals that are in the process of relocating to the Bay area or have already purchased a home.

<comment><USER33> "very cheap" \- There is no need for the quote. The real estate price in China, especially in Shanghai has been skyrocketing in the past decade. The average apartment price in the city is close to 10k USD(per square meter) now.

<comment><USER34> It is generally assumed that Bay area is more costly than most of China. Hence the quote. Of course, chinese people may know that it is otherwise....

<comment><USER11> I heard the average sale price of an apartment in China was $500K...that is for the whole country, including 2nd and 3rd tier cities. Now, I don't know how believable that is, but if true...wow...oh...wow...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> The interesting thing (in a bad way) is what will happen when these investors reverse their cash flow. If interest rates ever rise, they're going to want to move some of their money out of real estate. And that will depress housing prices across North America.

</comment><comment><USER36> My realization from this is that although China might be owning the USA in some aspects such as defense, budget/finance and manufacturing, none of that matters if the people aren't happy, the food isn't good and the air is not clean.

<comment><USER37> And you really cannot tell if the people there are less happy than people live in the US.

People now have much higher living condition the people in the past (say 18 century), but you really can't tell if you are happier than them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> China only allows ~$50k/yr to be sent out of the country how are these people able to bypass those currency controls? Or is the story inaccurate?

<comment><USER39> It is possible to bribe the banks to let you bypass the limits. There is a huge scandal in China right now over this.

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/07/13/attack- on...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/07/13/attack-on-bank-of- china-for-money-laundering-screams-infighting-in-beijing/)

<comment><USER40> As well as bitcoin which other people mentioned (and honestly I don't think this is that large right now), you can also just take bank cards out of the country attached to multiple local currency accounts in China and max them all daily. Otherwise, make business invoices from overseas to support the foreign exchange control bureau's approval of your transfer. Or just drive through Laos to Thailand with a car full of cash and enjoy your 90 day visa on arrival as a Chinese citizen. There's a lot of options.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> The picture captioned 'Visitors to Tiananmen Square struggle with Beijing's polluted air' shows someone wearing a _surgical_ mask rather than a _pollution_ mask. Surgical masks offer no protection against small particulate matter in the air.

</comment><comment><USER42> Why there are so much news about Chinese, can we talked about other countries?

</comment><comment><USER43> It's almost strange and unexpected that the economic rise of China actually benefits the poorest most. The "rising tide" of wealth has lots of problems, and it is hard to compare agricultural China with the industrial, much more populous one, but in General, most Chinese are better off.

And despite that, the richest want to emigrate, because they can't get any "richer" in China. They need western infrastructure to grow their own utility and/or wealth.

<comment><USER44> Why can't the richest become even richer in China? Which parts of the western infrastructure do they need to grow their own utility and/or wealth?

<comment><USER39> They want their kids to be educated in English and attend universities in English speaking countries, which increases their career prospects not only in those countries, but also within China.

Also, a number of these wealthy Chinese seeking to emigrate are highly corrupt. Some of them have committed all kinds of bribery, fraud, and extortion to enrich themselves. Although corruption is rampant in China, it is also punishable by death, so these people are looking for a quick getaway route should they get caught.

<comment><USER45> >>They want their kids to be educated in English and attend universities in English speaking countries

Yeah, but why the West specifically? There are places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, etc. with very good universities. While they can't compare with certain brand-name schools like Harvard and Yale, the quality of education they offer is near the top.

<comment><USER46> International students coming to Australia for their education is a very big business. In total its about 22% of the student population, up to 40% at some institutions.

[https://aei.gov.au/research/International-Student- Data/Docum...](https://aei.gov.au/research/International-Student- Data/Documents/INTERNATIONAL%20STUDENT%20DATA/2013/2013%20Time%20Series%20Graph.pdf)

[http://www.australianuniversities.com.au/directory/student-n...](http://www.australianuniversities.com.au/directory/student- numbers/)

Domestic university students in Australia have no upfront tuition fees. We have a student loan type system called HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme) which is sort of like a student loan but effectively interest free (it rises with inflation via the CPI). Payments are made automatically from your salary but only when you reach a thresholded salary (~$50k). Its been a very good system in that it achieves a specific objective - accessibility of higher education to most Australians.* If your parents arent rich you can still go to a good university.

[https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/help-repayment-thresholds- and-r...](https://www.ato.gov.au/rates/help-repayment-thresholds-and-rates/)

International students are not eligible for this system and pay full tuition fees. Fees vary considerably but you are looking at $50k-$250k depending on whether you are going for an arts degree or full medical school. It is a massive source of funding for universities in Australia.

There are occassionally some minor scandals, for instance every now and then an academic passes an overseas student that should have failed because of administrative pressure. There is also a real concern that research is second place and the institutions are becoming undergrad sausage factories churning out graduates. Universities here are certainly more like businesses than they were 20 years ago (see comment below about our current government). But overall I think its been very positive for Australia. It aids multicultural thinking and integration with Asia. It also subsidises the cost of education for domestic students.

* the current government are trying to change this so we have a system more like the USA. They have a fight on their hands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Stopped reading after this: "Today, China's borders are wide open. Almost anybody who wants a passport can get one."

Obviously poorly written article.

<comment><USER33> "Today, China's borders are wide open. Almost anybody who wants a passport can get one." What's wrong with this?

<comment><USER30> They probably mean anyone who wants to leave, can, versus strict emigration control that communist countries had in place to stop brain drain.

<comment><USER22> haha, anyone else here still believe china is a communist country?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google bans tethering app from Android Market - <AUTHOR> http://www.itworld.com/mobile-amp-wireless/65504/google-bans-tethering-app-android-market A developer is reporting that Google has banned his tethering application from the Android Market, one of the first hints that the store may not be as open as Google has promised. <comment><USER2> Of course, you could just go download the APK from somewhere else.

I doubt many people (myself included) would have -any- issues with the App Store's restrictions if, like the Android Market, it wasn't the exclusive and only way for distributing applications, and you could distribute the binary like you can distribute an EXE or DMG.

<comment><USER3> Exactly. There's also slideme.org, an open alternative to android market.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> > The application lets users connect their G1 Android phones via Wi-Fi to > their laptops and then access the Internet from the laptop using the phone's > cellular connection.

This is stupid. So T-Mobile has a problem with using their paid-for service more?

I access my internet from a phone - this is just stupid. Why would they have a problem with something that gives them extra revenue?

Connecting your phone to your computer as a modem is a standard feature for all other phones.

<comment><USER5> > Why would they have a problem with something that gives them extra revenue?

Because the data plan isn't metered. Tethering will cost them capacity they aren't billing to anyone. Sort of how like you can get in trouble for using a residential cable modem in a business--consumers get a price break and power users pay more.

> Connecting your phone to your computer as a modem is a standard feature for > all other phones.

Not totally true, the iPhone is just now getting this in the upcoming 3.0 release for example. Many times tethering requires a more expensive data plan with the carrier and that may turn out to be the case with both Android and iPhone.

<comment><USER4> > Because the data plan isn't metered.

Fair enough. In my country it is (I did not think that there was a country that did not charge for its data).I use a SIM with pre-paid on it which is nice (no contracts, nothing).

> Sort of how like you can get in trouble for using a residential cable modem > in a business--consumers get a price break and power users pay more.

This is actually just a devious scheme to rip companies off.

> Not totally true, the iPhone is just now getting this in the upcoming 3.0 > release for example.

Maybe. I only personally know of one person with an iPhone (again, it is more popular in the states). Most newish (e.g. last 4 years) phones (from Nokia or Samsung) have 3G built-in (when compared to iPhone's EDGE).

Also, connecting to the Internet using these phones' modems is straight forward and the majority of them accept micro-USB (through which it also charges).

<comment><USER5> > Fair enough. In my country it is (I did not think that there was a country > that did not charge for its data).I use a SIM with pre-paid on it which is > nice (no contracts, nothing).

In the US it's common to require unlimited data packages for smartphones. The G1 and iPhone are examples of that. It's also common with BlackBerry. It's uncommon to pay by the megabyte here, you either don't have internet access or have unlimited (well, "unlimited") access.

<comment><USER6> It may be uncommon but there are limited data plan options where you pay by megabytes. (T-Mobile has a couple)

<comment><USER5> But those options are not available on all phones. The G1 for example requires T-Mobile's unlimited data plan which costs $24.99/month. (FWIW the iPhone is the same way, but AT&t's plan is more expensive.)</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Mess We're In (2014) [video] - <AUTHOR> https://youtube.com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4 <comment><USER2> Unison directly implements the idea Joe Armstrong was talking about right? [1] ("use hashes instead of names").

1: [https://www.unisonweb.org/docs/tour#%F0%9F%A7%A0-the-big- tec...](https://www.unisonweb.org/docs/tour#%F0%9F%A7%A0-the-big-technical- idea)

</comment><comment><USER3> The mess we were in at the time: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8342755)

</comment><comment> CKN23-ARIN RIP Joe Armstrong</comment>


Tech.pro has been temporarily deactivated - <AUTHOR> http://tech.pro/

<comment><AUTHOR> This site wasn't too bad, had a few good technical SQL articles. The message "We will bring Tech.pro back online after our team has grown in sufficient size to support the community." sounds pretty open-ended. There is no news on this either.</comment>


Show HN: Dali – A pure-Nim indie assembler for Android dex and apk files - <AUTHOR> https://forum.nim-lang.org/t/4840 <comment><USER2> Fun off-topic fact: the Nim forum that this announcement is hosted on is written in Nim and completely open source, give it a go: [https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum](https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum)

<comment><USER3> Interestingly the same seems to be true for D, another language in a somewhat similar space to Nim. [https://forum.dlang.org](https://forum.dlang.org) has source code hosted at [https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed](https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed)

<comment><USER2> Another thing to note: you will not find any JavaScript in Nim's repo. That's because Nim compiles to JS, I'm actually using an SPA framework written in Nim for most of the forum.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Looking over Nim, it says it is a statically typed language, compiles to C/C++/JavaScript.

Is this interesting for Android developers, i.e. would I have a good reason to consider this over Kotlin or Java?

When I see things like Phoenix/Elixir the language makes me consider evaluating it for usage instead of React/JavaScript. But, I don't immediately see the reason I would invest in this language. What am I not seeing?

<comment><USER5> I think the following kind of sums up its appeal to me:

* Compiled language, sits in a similar kind of language category to Go where it compiles to a native binary but also has a GC, so it sits in that kind of performance ballpark

* But has generics

* A powerful AST based macro system, which gives it a kind of lisp-like meta-programmability. This means you can create DSLs and other tools which compile down to native code.

* Python-like syntax

But yeah, this is like one of the first steps that you really need to do effective development on Android. It's an impressive project, but it's not going to bring Android developers flocking from Java/Kotlin. However, it is quite cool for existing Nim developers who'd like to try targetting Android.

<comment><USER6> Go has certain things out of the box that I think attributed to it's success:

Built-In libraries out of the box for web and other things which are useful. The out of the box web server isn't Django, but it works, and it's clear what it's doing under the hood. Also all the code is documented as well. I think if Nim could have a usable web server in the std lib (same with Rust and D) it would be a game changer. It doesn't have to be ultra fast, just good enough to be production ready (SSL and other secure things, and make setting up a static directory easy, numerous static directories).

The first thing I test when I try any language is the web frameworks, it tells me how expressive / powerful the language can be. This is why I always loved CherryPy from Python, because I can mentally map classes, objects, and methods to http routes without too much mental overhead. If I need to get crazier I can pull in a routing library as well.

<comment><USER2> > Go has certain things out of the box that I think attributed to it's > success:

Yes, Google's backing. :)

> I think if Nim could have a usable web server in the std lib (same with Rust > and D) it would be a game changer.

Nim does have an HTTP server in its stdlib[1], but I wouldn't go as far as to say that this is a game changer.

> The first thing I test when I try any language is the web frameworks

You should give my web framework, Jester[2], a try :)

1 - [https://nim-lang.org/docs/asynchttpserver.html](https://nim- lang.org/docs/asynchttpserver.html)

2 - [https://github.com/dom96/jester](https://github.com/dom96/jester)

<comment><USER6> I may have to, now that I'm at a new job where I only do Java, I feel like I can experiment with other languages more since I dont have to keep juggling between front-end and back-end code. Does it handle sessions and such? Also not familiar with database driver support for Nim.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> (Blank page with JS disabled.)

<comment><USER2> yeah, sorry. On our todo: [https://github.com/nim- lang/nimforum/issues/141](https://github.com/nim-lang/nimforum/issues/141)

<comment><USER7> Cheers!

(Really, just a <noscript> saying "Hey, turn on JS for us." would be more than enough to make me happy, FWIW.)</comment></comment></comment>


Namecheap to Double EFF Donation if 25,000 Transfers Made Today - <AUTHOR> http://www.elliotsblog.com/breaking-namecheap-to-double-donation-to-eff-if-25000-transfers-are-made-today-3718

<comment><USER2> I transferred 7 domains today. What a great way to support the EFF at no cost to me.

For those of you who think this costs something: the $6.99 price is for an additional year of domain registration that is added to whatever time remains at godaddy. If you were going to renew your domains at some point anyway, it's essentially free.

I will have no downtime since my DNS is not at godaddy. If you use godaddy DNS see [http://www.namecheap.com/support/knowledgebase/article.aspx/...](http://www.namecheap.com/support/knowledgebase/article.aspx/582)

I don't know for sure that namecheap is the world's best registrar, but I decided not to overthink it, since if choosing a registrar were really such a key decision I wouldn't have stayed at godaddy for years. And with transfer being so easy I don't expect there to be a problem if I decide to move elsewhere later. In the meantime I'm supporting the EFF and exercising meaningful opposition to SOPA.

<comment><USER3> > I don't know for sure that namecheap is the world's best registrar, but I > decided not to overthink it

I really wish people would. Who here ever heard of Namecheap before they blasted GoDaddy for ``breaking ICANN rules'' by restricting their whois access just before industry experts confirmed that it's standard practice for preventing abuse? It reeks of dishonesty and Namecheap seems to be doing whatever they can to stay viral. Registrars have always been a shady bunch and adopting one without research has never been a good idea.

<comment><USER2> I'm not convinced deeply researching registrars is worth my time. I skimmed through the terms of service before switching to namecheap and that's it. They're a commodity. If the only thing distinguishing this one is that they might put out a press release about 25,000 Internet power users voting against SOPA with their money, that's enough for me. Considering that the only harm I suffered from staying with godaddy for years was a sense of dissatisfaction at being associated with them, I doubt namecheap will do anything in the next 60 days (after which I can transfer elsewhere) to make me regret switching.

If you've got a non-shady registrar and reasons to think it's the best, post something and maybe I'll transfer to them in March.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Update: Namecheap hit 25,000 transfers today, set to make $50,000+ donation: [http://www.elliotsblog.com/namecheap-hits-25000-transfers- to...](http://www.elliotsblog.com/namecheap-hits-25000-transfers-today-0665)

</comment><comment><USER4> Perhaps this is in response to Ghandi's similar offer?

Who cares though, I'm happy to see them compete for such a great cause.

<comment><USER5> _"Perhaps this is in response to Ghandi's similar offer?"_

It's the other way around: Gandi's offer was posted on Dec 29 [0], while Namecheap's offer was announced on Dec 27 [1].

[0] [https://www.gandi.net/news/en/2011-12-29/539-gandi_supports_...](https://www.gandi.net/news/en/2011-12-29/539-gandi_supports_the_eff/)

[1] [http://community.namecheap.com/blog/2011/12/27/move-your- dom...](http://community.namecheap.com/blog/2011/12/27/move-your-domain-day/)

<comment><USER6> Yes, so as to 1-up Gandi, Namecheap announced _today_ that they'll be doubling it if they make it to $25k. That's what this post is about...

<comment><USER5> Ah yes, you're right. Now I see what mikegirouard meant.

In any case, I already transferred 20 of my domains from GoDaddy to Namecheap yesterday. I only have some domains at GoDaddy with ccTLDs that Namecheap doesn't support, but I turned the autorenewal off for those domains while I'm looking for an other registrar to transfer them to.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I moved my last (of those I'm bothering to maintain) today. That's a total of 25, I think, over the last three days.

BTW, if you're pasting in the domain and EPP key, make sure there are no spaces around the comma.

         domain, key # bad
         domain,key  # OK

This seems to have tripped up my initial bulk transfer.

</comment><comment><USER8> Seems like this is getting main-stream community support:

[http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/move-your-domain-day- nameche...](http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/move-your-domain-day-namecheap- offer-6-99-4-53-transfer-1-year-extension-with-1-1104272)

I posted onto HotUkDeals not knowing what to expect, but seems like people are very aware of SOPA. Well, that and the crowd are even more techie than I had anticipated.

All of this mainstream attention perhaps caused this tweet (even if the news itself is old): [https://twitter.com/#!/DrBobParsons/statuses/152473462399713...](https://twitter.com/#!/DrBobParsons/statuses/152473462399713280)

</comment><comment><USER9> Transferred All domains from GoDaddy today, after being with them forever! Feels great! Had been unhappy with them for awhile.

</comment><comment><USER10> moved my domains today, glad to help along freedom as much as I can, as the article says EFF really needs it so come on guys!

</comment><comment><USER11> I'm trying to move names right now and am getting an error from NameCheap. I hope they are over-capacity on this special!!

</comment><comment><USER12> These guys really milk the hell out of you guys. That's barely even a meaningful amount of money for them or for EFF.

<comment><USER5> >$50,000 is barely meaningful? Any charity would be thrilled to receive such a sum.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I just did 4 domains.

</comment><comment><USER14> I transferred to DNSimple instead, based on the general impression that namecheap is just GoDaddy in another guise, and the reports from users of namecheap that their interface is just as bad as GoDaddy's.

Gotta say I'm happy so far. DNSimple is the best DNS management interface I've found yet - well worth $3/month.

<comment><USER15> >reports from users of namecheap that their interface is just as bad as GoDaddy's.

Completely untrue. Namecheap's interface is barebones and is by no mean flashy, but that's what I _like_ about it. It gets out of my way and lets me do what I need.

GoDaddy's interface is a labyrinth designed to make you want to slam your own hand in a car door just to make the hurt stop.

<comment><USER10> gotta second you on this one, namecheap is simple, plain and a huge breath of fresh air (when your just escaping the godaddy labyrinth)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Has anyone taken opportunity of parental leave to learn new skills? - <AUTHOR> I have a 5 week parental leave coming up in my schedulr later this year. For parents on HN: did you manage to learn new skills (other than taking care of the baby), and how did you manage to get the time needed?<p>Thanks in advance. <comment><USER2> It's hard to believe, I know, but in two years, those 5 weeks will look like they did not have any influence at all in your long term productivity or what you could have achieved. After some time, you will realize that the perceived less amount of time allows you to do more, and more efficiently. than people that actually have all the time of the world in their hands.

You maybe could learn a skill while the kid is sleeping; but the irregular patterns and not-so-long periods of quiet sleep would better be used to do stuff you necessarily need to do (bills, paperwork, household tasks, grocery shopping, little repairs, making place in the cupboards, perhaps installing some furniture, etc.).

Usually given total undivided attention without rush to the baby leads to much easier and faster resolution; for example, when trying to feed, or sleep time, 30/55 minutes taking care that the kid feels well, that temperature is good (if it is to hot, for example, gently moving a towel), providing entertainment flying some toy and engaging them, quietly singing, etc. will lead to less time overall than trying to rush in 10 minutes and find yourself an hour later with a very tired baby that will sleep out of sheer exhaustion.

Best of luck and think that 5 weeks will look like nothing in the future. Think that if you had removed one year of your education in the past, quite probably, things would not have been so different anyway.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Yeah it's probably nothing in the long term even without the baby. I guess I'm just a bit over anxious about not learning anything new.

<comment><USER2> I used to wonder myself: how is it possible that the world hasn't been taken over by single people without kids? Well, then I realized that I never also did before having kids :-D - There will be very hard times (for months and months) but you'll grow into them and they'll look fine when you look back. In my case, detachment from social networks (e.g. shutting down with no possibility of going back) really increased my time to be with the baby and focus to do what I had to do when I could. Leaving the phone&computer in another room when doing most tasks and when sleeping (to prevent me from those 10 seconds that are half an hour of wasted sleep or time), also helped... All best!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> When my daughter was born I spent every hour either caring for her or for my wife. I couldn't imagine doing anything else on top of that. Diaper changes and feeding every 2 hours for the first 4-6 months at least.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks man. Geez that's tough...yeah I asked the wrong question :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> First time? Congratulation! Sleep now, because the next 18 years are hard.

As other commentators said, you will get a very irregular sleep schedule. Essentially while the baby is sleeping. Luckily they sleep a lot, but while they are not sleeping they will require a lot of attention, and while they are sleeping you must do a lot of small task related to the baby or yous enjoy half an hour doing nothing.

You can try to learn something, it is not impossible, but it's hard.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Yeah first time and guess I'm greatly underestimating the energy required to take care of a new born.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I was so tired I barely managed to cook for myself. The only new skills you'll likely to learn is new ways of coping with extreme tiredness (and no, a misspent youth partying still doesn't prepare you for the tiredness of parenthood). You're better off finding a TV box set you can half watch while feeding the baby rather than trying to engage your brain.

Enjoy parenthood. It is also the most rewarding job you'll ever have.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. This is a bit terrifying...and that's just the beginning.

<comment><USER5> The best advice anyone can give you is to take everyone else's parenting advice with a pinch of salt and find what works for your family.

I don't just mean advice you read on HN, but any and all advice. Advice from friends and from your extended family. Even advice from your health care workers. Every baby is different and what works for one child wouldn't work for another. So by all means listen to suggestions people might make but don't stress if you end up doing things completely differently. As long as you show the child love the rest is just an implementation detail.

<comment><USER6> The only parenting experts have just one child.

When they get their second they realise that all children are different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Yep I learned the skills of how to take better care of my children! It improved my bond with them massively. Use the leave for that. It's what it's for. If you waste it 'learning' you won't get it back.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I read the other comments and apparently I need to concentrate on taking care of the baby.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Parental leave is for taking care of your baby. You'll be lucky if you manage to do anything else during the first month.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Read the other comments and get the gist...

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I taught myself how to play guitar and mandolin but my parental leave was 5ish years.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Wow five years is a lot of time...</comment></comment>


Endocrine-disrupting chemical exposure in US: disease burden and cost analysis - <AUTHOR> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(16)30275-3/fulltext <comment><USER2> Soak all your produce in baking soda water for 10 minutes.

[https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.7b03118?source...](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.jafc.7b03118?source=cen)

<comment><USER3> I feel like this would affect the flavor?

<comment><USER4> Apparently not, less so than using vinegar which is what I have been using. That being said, I'll let you know once I've eaten my lunch...

<comment><USER3> How was lunch?

<comment><USER4> Sorry for the delay! It was fine, couldn't taste the baking soda at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> How do I buy food in the US that I know hasn't been exposed to such pesticides?

<comment><USER6> Buy from a farmers' market, and ask. Most of the sellers will know off the top of their heads exactly how their crops have been grown and what was/wasn't used, and if they don't, that's a seller to avoid.

As an added bonus, farmers' markets tend to be cheaper than supermarkets even as the food is better. It mystifies me that they aren't more commonly used and have a reputation as being for rich hipsters (i.e., like Whole Foods).

<comment><USER7> Never been to a cheaper farmer's market in my life. I've lived in New York, Chicago and Baltimore. Intrigued by this concept. Can't imagine it actually exists anywhere.

<comment><USER8> Toll roads, long driving, competition and dealing with parking and paying to set up in a high-demand area are all problems farmers face at large city markets. Go almost anywhere else and you'll indeed be surprised.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Does anyone have the PDF to the full article? I'm curious to read more than the summary.

<comment><USER10> You can find download links from Google Scholar. Here is one from researchgate posted by the corresponding author (which is totally legal): [https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonardo_Trasande/publi...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonardo_Trasande/publication/309306512_Exposure_to_endocrine- disrupting_chemicals_in_the_USA_a_population- based_disease_burden_and_cost_analysis/links/580a284c08ae74852b52ef36.pdf)

Don't pay for the article. The money goes 100% to the publisher not the authors.

<comment><USER9> Thanks! In case anyone is curious, I found the excerpt that had what I was looking for (the list of specific endocrine disrupting compounds). From page 2:

"The probabilities had been based on assessment of the toxicological and epidemiological evidence for 15 exposure–response relations between EDCs (PBDEs, organophosphate pesticides, dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane, di-2-ethylhexylphthalate, bisphenol A, benzylphthalates and butylphthalates, and exposures to combinations of these substances; appendix) and disorders (loss of intelligence quotient [IQ] points and consequent intellectual disability, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, autism, adult and childhood obesity, adult diabetes, crypt-orchidism, testicular cancer, male factor infertility, early cardiovascular mortality due to reduced testosterone, leiomyomas, and endometriosis) with use of a modified Delphi approach to achieve consensus."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Good luck with the current EPA...

</comment><comment><USER12> note: monsanto's roundup chemical is an endocrine disruptor. we put it on most of our food supply. this contributes to the high cost burden.

secondary note: you don't want to have endocrine disruptors anywhere. they aren't good for you.

<comment><USER13> I wanted to up vote you, but did some research and turns out that both the FDA and the European Food Safety Authority have not found evidence that it is:

"The current assessment concluded that glyphosate does not have oestrogen, androgen, thyroid and steroidogenesis (EATS)‐mediated endocrine disrupting properties based on the facts that no endocrine‐mediated adverse effects were identified in apical studies; the weak evidence seen in a limited number of supplementary in vitro studies was inconsistent with the findings of the acceptable OECD (Organisation for Economic Co‐operation and Development) tests and it was not expressed in vivo in the OECD Level 4 and 5 studies; and no EATS‐mediated endocrine mode of action was identified. Since the database available to reach this conclusion was quite comprehensive, it was concluded that the data gap identified in the previous EFSA conclusion (EFSA Journal 2015;13(11):4302) was adequately addressed."

Source: [https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2903/j.efsa...](https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2903/j.efsa.2017.4979)

<comment><USER12> roundup is likely more harmful then glyphosate alone, which has been itself confirmed as harmful in a handful of investigations:

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X0...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X09003047)

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257596/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257596/) "Surprisingly, Roundup is always more toxic than its active ingredient... We conclude that endocrine and toxic effects of Roundup, not just glyphosate, can be observed in mammals."

[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00244-006-0154-8](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00244-006-0154-8)

"The cytotoxic, and potentially endocrine-disrupting effects of Roundup are thus amplified with time. Taken together, these data suggest that Roundup exposure may affect human reproduction and fetal development in case of contamination. Chemical mixtures in formulations appear to be underestimated regarding their toxic or hormonal impact."

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Consider the possibility that some such chemicals are good for society. For example, exposure to pseudoestrogens may reduce violence. Medical literature doesn't really have a category for this -- there is only 'burden and cost' of environmental effects, assuming that any change from evolved human biology is bad.

But it seems like evolved human biology is a little too violent for the society we want, and perhaps we'd benefit from even more X in the water/air/food supply.

<comment><USER15> This is a perfect example of naive intervention. there is no evidence that pseudoestrogens may reduce violence and I have no idea how you came to such a ludicrous conclusion.

Is it because you believe the myth that high testosterone causes violence? That "roid rage" people normally picture when thinking of people who do steroids is actually people who neglect or don't put enough effort into post cycle therapy or aromatase inhibitors to LOWER their estrogen levels.

Yes taking steroids greatly increases Estrogen levels as well and this is the main reason many men who have done steroids without proper cycling have some semblance of breasts...

If anything this "violent" society you speak of is most likely a result of these pseudoestrogens / xenoestrogens and other endocrine disrupting chemicals.

<comment><USER16> The positive correlation between testosterone and violence is not a myth in animals.

It has also been observed in humans, though the correlation is weak[1].

1\. [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135917890...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135917890000032X)

<comment><USER17> A weak correlation cannot intelligently be used to justify anything except further research...

<comment><USER18> In this case, it's a weak correlation across a meta-analysis of 45 independent studies. While I'd agree that further research would probably be beneficial, this is a result _that already includes some further research_.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Your cyberpunk games are dangerous (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://boingboing.net/2015/05/08/your-cyberpunk-games-are-dange.html <comment><USER2> GURPS Cyberpunk is still available as a PDF and interestingly, is still the best generic cyberpunk toolkit ever printed.

[http://www.warehouse23.com/products/gurps-classic- cyberpunk](http://www.warehouse23.com/products/gurps-classic-cyberpunk)

<comment> rv-de Seems interesting. Why can't I find it on boardgamegeek.com?

<comment><USER3> The game, or one like it, is on RPG Geek: [https://rpggeek.com/rpgfamily/335/cyberpunk](https://rpggeek.com/rpgfamily/335/cyberpunk)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> "increment on May 11, 2015 [-]

Yeah, ultimately I think the Internet today is a lot more open and a lot more beneficial to liberal society than any network was in 1990. I understand why you gag at that, but, I can imagine much, much worse outcomes than we got."

How fast things change.

<comment><USER5> Still true.

<comment><USER6> No it isn't

<comment><USER7> It is - compare the internet to the AppStore or the Play Store. The internet could've easily been something like that - a walled garden accessible only through proprietary clients, where you could only publish content through prescribed channels. Sure, people would've created open alternatives, but just like is the case with the AppStore alternatives today, those alternatives would languish for want of an audience.

<comment><USER8> You don't need a commercial aggregator to deal with the problem of an audience. You just need a well-known aggregator.

The mobile phone is seems like a good analogue of the walled garden model and unsurprisingly computers like Macs and Chromebooks show some of their roots there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > After a gradual dawning of awareness, he asks the computer, "Is this a game… > or is it real?" With the aplomb of a delusional college student wandering > the steam tunnels, imaginary sword in hand, the computer replies, "What's > the difference?"

Hmmm, I have never met this perspective. An AI might be limited in perceiving reality in addition to being much stronger intellectually. A dangerous mix I would say. Imagine "See", but with AI instead of the blind people.

<comment><USER10> A binary AI would probably have to settle for an either/or situation. The result and therefore difference between a choice of reality and game, when picking from the core duality, will always be either reality or a game. A quantum AI would be able to view both equally (and be able to grasp all the intermediate states (that we call stable)) and therefore not be able to distinguish between what we call "real" and what aspects of reality we call "imaginary". Our quantum brain that we force into a binary perspective by applying logic is able to see the whole spectrum, but we choose not to use it except for a few parts. What is the difference between real and imaginary? In mathematics we have the real numbers and the imaginary numbers, which arise out of a necessity solely due to the existence of real numbers in the first place. We seem to have no problem accepting both as true and working with both. Each part of the real/imaginary number spectrum allow us to describe reality in different ways - or perspectives, if you will. We even call them real and imaginary and don't deny imaginary numbers their very real existence. So what's the difference, really?

<comment><USER11> I don't quite understand why a "binary AI" wouldn't be able to give you a probability on how much it thinks it's in reality (ie, an intermediate state).

I don't think quantum AI has that much more advantages either and the human brain doesn't really qualify as "quantum" either in my books.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Discussed at the time: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9519956](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9519956)

</comment><comment> at-fates-hands I'm surprised they left out the "made for tv" movie Mazes and Monsters that starred Tom Hanks. The movie paralleled the story of James Dallas Egbert III, the missing college student.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters)

</comment><comment><USER13> >This misunderstanding arose only five months after TSR obtained widespread notoriety in a similar confusion surrounding the disappearance of college student James Dallas Egbert III in East Lansing, Michigan. A private detective hired to find Egbert had learned that the young man played TSR's role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons—at the time virtually unknown to mainstream America—and hypothesized that Egbert had come to believe the game was real. Famously, this led to calls for a search of the college steam tunnels, where presumably Egbert would be found wandering in a deluded stupor, questing for monsters and treasure.

Tom Hanks starred in a 1982 made for TV movie called, "Mazes and Monsters" that used virtually this exact plot. In the 80s there was a massive hysteria about Dungeons & Dragons being linked to "devil worship" and other madness (yes really). It was so bad that TSR pulled Demons and Devils from the (then) new edition of the Monster Manual (and related books) in an attempt to quell the furor.

Spoiler: In the movie the character played by Hanks actually does go crazy and end up lost in the tunnels. He is eventually found but he has forever lost his mind, driven insane by the evil game.

[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084314/)

</comment><comment><USER14> Great article. The Steve Jackson raid is the stuff of legend, and confusion. This article definitely clears up the fog of war regarding the ordeal.

</comment><comment><USER15> misleading title :(

</comment><comment><USER16> More revisionist history from millenials who weren't there to know that things like GURPS and Legion of Doom and other things mentioned in this article were unknown at the time, even to other "hackers" and BBSs and usenet. Journalists decided to write about them and hail them as heros years later, changing what was pop culture to the cyberpunk world of those days to whatever they see as nostalgic and romantic and interesting. And for the record, no one who was actually IN the cybperpunk world in the 1980s (including the year 1990) actually used the term "cyberpunk", regardless of whether it was coined or not. Once the term was out there, it was definitely not a cool word and anyone who used it or labeled themselves that way was not at all a cyberpunk.

<comment><USER17> No. Maybe they were unknown to you, but not some of us. I first heard about the Phrack raids a week or so afterward, when certain of my peers in college began destroying floppies in a fit of paranoia.

_Free_The_Atlanta_Three_

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Games are dangerous? What bs.

<comment><USER19> I miss a time when people read articles before commenting on them. Just skimming the introduction could have told you that the title is not a reflection of an argument forwarded by the article.

<comment><USER20> What time was that? Humans have always taken shortcuts.

<comment><USER21> The idea that "human society/culture/habbit was always the same in X aspect" is as ludicrous as "human society/culture/habbit is always changing in X aspect".

<comment><USER22> For as long as any of us can remember, the average person has tried to avoid wasting their time on potentially fruitless pursuits with no joy in the journey.

<comment><USER21> Shortcuts is not just "skip the useless parts", but also cheat, lose subtlety, lower quality (as in "take shortcuts"), and so on.

In this case "read[ing] articles before commenting on them" is not "wasting their time on potentially fruitless pursuits with no joy in the journey", it's the very basic prerequisite for responding to an article.

And yes, there was a time when this happened less. In the mobile and social era, people are skimming more, jumping around from text to text more, and do focused reading of articles and books less -- this has been studied and written about several times (e.g. here's a high level article from a book author on the subject: [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is- goog...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google- making-us-stupid/306868/) ).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Tata's Nano Home: Company behind world's cheapest car to sell $7,800 apartments - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/hotproperty/archives/2009/05/first_it_came_o.html <comment><USER2> If these are built right, they could be very nice places to live. See Philip Greenspun's idea for Latin-American style villages in the US:

<http://philip.greenspun.com/non-profit/> (scroll to bottom)</comment>


Show HN: Latest software engineering blog posts - <AUTHOR> http://www.slicedham.co/

<comment><USER2> please add 'select all' on [http://www.slicedham.co/users/select](http://www.slicedham.co/users/select)

</comment><comment><USER3> Is there still a way for users to submit blogs that may be a fit for this? I know your last project allowed that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Will add that. This is just a very first version. :)

<comment><USER3> What are you thinking of adding in the future?

<comment><AUTHOR> Probably allowing people to comment.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Trump to suspend entry of certain foreign workers despite business opposition - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-workers/trump-to-suspend-entry-of-certain-foreign-workers-despite-business-group-opposition-idUSKBN23T2ZW <comment><USER2> > The administration plans to rework the H-1B visa program so that the 85,000 > visas available in the program each year go to the highest-paid applicants, > instead of the current lottery system.

Interesting take on things, looks like the FAANGs will have an easier time with getting H1Bs accepted.

</comment><comment><USER3> H1B visas are just modern day indentured servitude. Either the candidates skills are valuable enough where we should allow them in irrespective of a specific job tied to a company or not at all. The current system creates such a massive imbalance of power between employee and employer that any agreements made might as well be under duress.

</comment><comment><USER4> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23585596](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23585596)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23605557](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23605557)

</comment><comment><USER5> Anyone know any CS grads who are having trouble finding work and would like to work in a corporate job that H1s work it? Or even regular devs.

<comment><USER6> yes!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> As more and more people WFH, H-1B visa is less necessary.

<comment><USER8> True. Now they can do the same jobs from India, China, Vietnam, etc for way cheaper.

Even Canada is an option if they want to be in US time zones but not have to deal with arbitrary and capricious changes in rules.</comment></comment>


How Buildings Learn (1997) [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0&list=PLxFD-wxU4CoNb-gCM0-P9fjJchwUIfkep <comment><USER2> In this TV series, Stewart Brand rightly acknowledges MIT's legendary Building 20, though there's a lot more to say about it:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_20](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_20)

I had a chance to see Building 20, and do a student Web project on it, right before it was destroyed. Brand contrasts Building 20 with IM Pei-designed E15, which I worked in, and which had even more bad elements than he itemizes, though there were also some redeeming elements. The best thing about it -- other than the many students that filled it -- was that, sometimes, in the wee hours of the night, as you're slaving as a grad student, the cold and hostile interior cutout, which spanned every floor, was filled with the sound of someone playing the grand piano on the lower level... and belting out vocals of Billy Joel classics. I never interrupted and risked breaking the magic, but later learned the performer was someone who worked in IT, rather than a student/researcher/visitor, which I suppose is one loose sense in which the building was malleable wrt original intent.

I later worked in the fancy Frank Gehry-designed Stata Center that replaced some of Building 20, as well as served other purposes. It's a nice building, and some interesting conscious efforts were made, such as in the lobby/concourse area, which I think are paying off. There were a few glaring quirks that were designed in, or artifacts of the design, which seemed incongruous with the niceness of it. There was also sometimes suboptimal allocation of interior space, when some people didn't have enough space, but there were big chunks of underutilized space.

(This is partly relevant, and tangentially funny: One evening of late hours at work, several years ago, I was meeting with a professor in one of those underutilized sitting spaces, and a presumed undergrad student turned on an adjacent loud piece of machinery, which was placed poorly, next to professors' offices, and difficult to talk over. Professor asks student to use the machine later, because we're trying to talk. Professor was tenured and exceedingly accomplished, but (I think this might've been a factor in his response) female and young, and apparently the male student was very new and unaware. Rather than apologize and perhaps negotiate, he adopts an irritated, talking-down tone, "And who are you?" She responds, no note of irritation, just a hint of cheerful, "I'm Professor ___", and asks him to use the noisy machine later.)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_and_Maria_Stata_Center](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_and_Maria_Stata_Center)

I understand that the Stata building also helped unite some groups previously from 545 Tech Square and elsewhere, including Project MAC, the AI Lab, LCS, and the W3C. Most of that greatness was before my time, but I read about it as a kid. What seemed to be a series of remodeling of 545 Tech Square took place after Stewart Brand's book was written, but, together with its previous twin building, could be used as a book cover illustration of building evolution over time.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Square_(Cambridge,_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Square_\(Cambridge,_Massachusetts\))

</comment><comment><USER3> The piece in the video where they talk about an old building that evolved over 500 years reminds me of when I lived in Germany and we would visit castles and take pictures as our hobby. Most castles start as a single tower on a high point of ground and grow from there.

So one of the things we would do is go around trying to identify the oldest tower, the place where this fortification started. It was generally going to be simpler and uglier and out of step with the rest of the architecture.

It was also often fairly centrally located. At Wurzburg, I think it was found in some inner courtyard.

At one time, I had the book called _How Buildings Learn._ The gist of it is that wonderful old buildings didn't start out as wonderful old buildings. They grew into their wonderfulness as owners added onto them.

Time and living well in that space is what makes for wonderful buildings.

Jane Jacobs talks about the need for older buildings in a city and the need for buildings of various ages. She says that when you bulldoze an area and start over and build everything new you are usually doing great harm to the town.

Her description is that these areas "Were always dead, but no one noticed until the body began to smell."

Which means it was never a good idea. People just didn't figure it out until the newness and shininess wore off and the fact that it didn't work and was falling apart in short order started to really show.

It was her explanation for why people were wrong about "This area died." No, it didn't die. It was never alive to begin with. You just didn't immediately see it.

Buildings and cities need to grow and breath and live. They need to evolve organically. If you imagine they are static things, you don't understand them and you can't do right by them.

<comment><USER4> The problem with bulldozing is that you get what the developer wants, not what anyone needs. I've had the dubious privilege of working and living in monumental architecture built by via mass bulldozing by an architect that people have heard of. They are all terribly nonfunctional buildings with nice, well thought out public spaces, but junk for everything else.

In one complex, there is no way to cross between two buildings outside about 100 yards away without going up and down 3 flights of stairs. (Which are very pretty, but icy in winter) The solution is that folks take an labyrinth of elevators, traversing parking garages and narrow hallways.

There's a million examples. But as a rule, famous architect + greenfield equates to shitty building.

<comment><USER3> Vernacular architecture is usually a better approach. But it's somewhat fallen out of favor of late.

One college put in sidewalks. People kept walking across the lawn.

In a daring and unusual move, instead of crabbing at people and trying to keep them on the sidewalks, they tore out the sidewalks and laid down sod. A few months later, they reinstalled sidewalks. The new plan was based on the paths worn in the grass by constant foot traffic.

We need more of those kinds of solutions.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've read the book carefully, cover-to-cover: it's a classic. I was fairly disappointed with the TV series though. I think the only thing I really got out of it was video of a few interesting buildings. For getting a good understanding of the ideas that Brand was trying to convey I highly recommend going straight to the book and bypassing the TV series.

</comment><comment><USER6> Make sure you get through the initial description of the problems with contemporary architecture that led the book to be written and get to the meat of the matter: how to think about buildings over time.

Also, the book this comes from is wonderful.

</comment><comment><USER7> The parallels between buildings are built to evolve, and software, are wonderful to think about

</comment><comment><USER8> Also a book!

</comment><comment><USER9> I also read the comments on youtube and one of them describes the series as a "terribly poor example of architectural information - so many unqualified statements, generalizations and assumptions that are simply incorrect"

From the same user:

 _" Architects often concentrate more on the look of a building than its eventual use or function" That is a very bold statement..... To say that architects downplay the function of building is a ridiculous thing to say._

 _" The central problem is that architects don't want change in their buildings, so they make it as difficult as possible." False. Architects are legally responsible to act for the betterment of their client and the general public. Being deliberately 'difficult' would result in an eventual loss of their license._

 _" Changes and remodeling is bound to be ugly." Give me a break, have you seen the Louvre? Or any other updated building, ever?_

<comment><USER10> I remember back in Columbia GSAPP during Tschumi's reign I (unfortunately) had a studio with Stan Allen. The theme was "Brownian Motion" I kid you not, and he started us off with "consider a career in minor architecture" and how we really should be focusing on the "skin condition". Right around the corner, a young hot wunderkind from Princeton's studio was doing 'organic' forms that basically amounted to 'turd' forms.

I came to architecture from Electrical Engineering. It was shocking to discover that, from a theoretical basis, there was no there there in Architecture. As far as I can tell, it is still a field caught in an identity crisis. CAD and advances in materials and structural engineering has definitely helped carry it along but fundamentally, Architecture is struggling to establish a sound theoretical foundation (beyond sound bites) to guide the design of buildings. At least Alexander, et al. put forth an actionable bottom-up program for design.</comment></comment>


Introducing Raindrop from Mozilla Labs - <AUTHOR> http://labs.mozilla.com/raindrop/2009/10/22/introducing-raindrop/ <comment><USER2> There's a common but often-ignored meta-lesson here - begin by describing what the thing actually does, concretely.

"An exploration in messaging innovation being led by the team responsible for Thunderbird, to explore new ways to use Open Web technologies to create useful, compelling messaging experiences" has near-zero information content and happily eats up the invaluable initial attention and visual spaces. One has to scale up a substantial wall of text before reaching anything specific but not before being invited on a detour into the 'Guiding Principles'. I didn't go down that path but presumably the principles include 'Be vague'.

It may sound like mere grouchy nit-picking but I've found that this type of failure at basic communication in a project's description is often indicative of its future lack of success. The pages of the Chandler project used to be a wonderfully instructive example but even they seem to have cleaned up their act on their current website. A very incomplete list of words and expressions to avoid before clearly stating what a product does -

revolutionary

innovation

vision

open

passionate

watch a video/screencast

Any others?

<comment><USER3> I agree with your point. I had to do some digging to get more concrete information.

 _When a friend's link from YouTube or flickr arrives, your messaging client should be able to show the video or photos near or as part of the message, rather than rudely kicking you over to a separate browser tab. Notifications from computers and mailing lists should be organized for you, not clutter your Inbox or require tedious manual filter setup. It should be easy to smoothly integrate new web services into your conversation viewer entirely using open web technologies._

[http://labs.mozilla.com/raindrop/2009/10/22/introducing- rain...](http://labs.mozilla.com/raindrop/2009/10/22/introducing- raindrop/#post-1)

<comment><USER4> I read that far too, but it wasn't very compelling. Getting videos in my IM instead of clicking on a link is revolutionary? They may proove me wrong, but it didn't make me want to download it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Thunderbird is so painful to use that I have trouble imagining the Thunderbird team producing something great. I'd rather they fixed Thunderbird.

I'm tired of:

\- Getting prompted for every single message whether I want to send in html or plain text format.

\- Search that takes forever.

\- Junk in my inbox, messages I wanted in junk.

\- A UI that finds any excuse to pop a modal dialog in my way.

Can anyone recommend another FOSS mail client that it is both good, and cross platform?

<comment><USER6> Your Thunderbird experience is almost completely opposite of mine. Gnus is my main e-mail client but there are a couple of Windows machines I run Thunderbird on.

All of your points can be solved by going through the configuration options. Maybe that shouldn't be necessary, but not everyone's the same.

<comment><USER7> Likewise. There hasn't been a lot of innovation in the Thunderbird client, but it consistently and mostly stays out of the way. Search is pretty fast and messages go where they're supposed to go.

In ~five years of using it across three machines, I've only had two instances in which a folder got corrupted, and in both cases I was able to repair it and recover the messages.

Also, when I migrated from Windows to Linux, transitioning my email profile was utterly seamless.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Raindrop seems conspicuously similar to Wave, both in its title and its functionality.

It's interesting to see Mozilla getting more independent, post-Chrome.

<comment><USER9> I would say that it looks more like an extensible message classification "email" client that aggregates more than just email.

The point about the name is interesting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> the problem i see with it is that it's all client-side filtering. when you access your email account from another computer, a webmail client, an iphone, whatever, all of those messages are still lumped into your inbox unless you have server-side filtering.

i still use procmail on my server to shuffle messages into imap folders before any of the clients see them. mailing lists go to separate folders that i never have to look at on my phone and my inbox stays clean so that new mail notifications on my phone actually mean something important has come through.

<comment><USER11> I use procmail & IMAP on my server and raindrop as a IMAP client. Works well.

In addition, Raindrop, being written on top of CouchDB, supports n-master- replication. You could just replicate your locally filtered messages to your other devices with or without going through a central server.

<comment><USER10> so you need two sets of filters? procmail and raindrop? does raindrop actually move messages between folders or just present a filtered/sorted inbox like sup (<http://sup.rubyforge.org/>)?

<comment><USER11> Raindrop doesn't filter, but it adheres your server filters

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The logo reminds me of Drupal:

<http://images.google.com/images?q=drupal+logo>

<comment><USER13> And the interface ([http://www.flickr.com/photos/43332657@N06/3996189794/sizes/o...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/43332657@N06/3996189794/sizes/o/in/pool-1279790@N22/)) looks similar to fever (<http://feedafever.com/#demo>)

<comment><USER11> This is only one of many possible, experimental interfaces. There already are alternatives, and they encourage for a lot more.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So far it's exactly what I do in gmail.

Whenever I sign up to a new mailing list I simply click filter messages from this mailing list when the confirmation arrives, select skip inbox and archive and apply a label of the mailing list name. That way, all the mailing lists have their own label on the left bar with the number of unread messages in each and don't clutter up my inbox.

I can do the same with facebook/amazon/whatever but I actually care about reading my facebook emails right away (I only get emails when invited to events or have new messages) and don't get much spam from amazon and whatnot, I always unsubscribe.

I fail to see any innovation in what they've done.

</comment><comment><USER15> It is clearly in the same vibe as wave... only google has already a version with wave, it is opensource and is much further at the moment. I hope will not start to act like microsoft on innovation. Microsoft is getting used to "try to follow the leader, 10miles behind". Additionnaly their post doesnt even mention the existence of wave... what to think about that ?

<comment><USER16> They can't mention google wave in every post to their blog.

Try: <http://labs.mozilla.com/raindrop/faq/>

>How does Raindrop relate to Google Wave?

>Google Wave is attempting to create a new form of messaging. We applaud their effort to innovate in the messaging space, and if it gains traction, we will be looking at ways to integrate the messaging protocols from Wave into the open, extensible user interface of the Raindrop platform. In the meantime, Raindrop is focusing on complementing existing messaging sources.

<comment><USER17> Sounds like a much more realistic approach than Wave.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The thing I found most interesting, is the use of couchdb and python for Raindrop instead of XUL.

My hypothesis: Due to CouchDB being used by both Canonical (UbuntuOne) and now Mozilla in new interesting 'products I'm more and less convinced that CouchDB will be become a the choice for data storage. It seems like a good replacement (although comparing the two isn't really fair) for sqlite.

Why? Because it supposedly (I haven't tested this myself yet) makes it very easy to sync between different couchdb instances (making it easier to have on- offline applications) and because you can 'run' a complete application from it using only html and javascript.

I've been reading Chris Anderson's ([http://jchrisa.net/drl/_design/sofa/_list/index/recent- posts...](http://jchrisa.net/drl/_design/sofa/_list/index/recent- posts?descending=true&limit=5)) about how couchdb would transform both desktop and webapplications and nowadays I tend to agree more and more.

Curious as what other people think of this..

</comment><comment><USER19> Wait, is this Thunderbird re-envisioned..? Are they seriously making this a windows client/download..??

EDIT: You can have it hosted by a service provider as indicated in one of their videos. Any chance of this being a success..? That's an honest, albeit, loaded question. Given the track record I'm not so sure...

It's a great idea that would probably have a better chance as a YC startup..

<comment><USER11> TB re-envisioned: I don't know. Will they make downloadable windows version: Yes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> There are videos describing the various component of Raindrop on Mozilla Messaging's Vimeo page, <http://vimeo.com/mozillamessaging/videos>

</comment><comment><USER21> Scott Macgregor who used to head up the Thunderbird team seems to have built another email client (proprietary).

<http://www.postbox-inc.com/>

</comment><comment><USER22> I don't think they bought the domain raindrop.com yet, yet somehow the screenshot shows the app at raindrop.com.

<comment><USER23> The status bar also says "transferring data from 127.0.0.1" -- and there's no "<http://> at the front. They just edited the address bar after the page loaded.

<comment><USER22> Oh yea I knew that. Sorry, it's hard to pass vocal inflections and speech nuances into text and I forgot. When I said "yet somehow ..." I wasn't seriously inquiring how they did it, just the fact that they did do that. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Has anybody here taken a look at the code and/or managed to compile a (atleast half-working) working build???

</comment><comment><USER25> Mozilla Wave? Who is next? Apple?</comment>


Ask HN: Web development environments like native? - <AUTHOR> I am looking for a web development environment/language/framework that gets as close as possible to the speed, productivity, and uniformity as native development in for example iOS. I find that I have limited time to work on side projects, and I would be much faster (and enjoy it much more) if I didn't have to slog through the mud that is modern front end web development. There must exist some stack with a relatively decent language, UI framework, and build system, but I haven't been able to find it or put it together.
Recently I tried Vue/Nuxt, but it lacks good Typescript (or other good language) support and lacks a UI framework (they exist, but they are ugly and/or huge). I've tried some other stacks but they generate massive file size which is unacceptable especially if you wish to serve mobile users.
Thanks! <comment><USER2> Check out Blazor. I have no experience with it and in fact I'm quiet skeptical, this being Microsoft and all, but it looks like Microsoft is really intent on improving it.

There's an 8 hour Youtube video [0] of a virtual conference showing off its capabilities published just 2 days ago, and looks like the documentation is improving [1].

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgneZz-4Foc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgneZz-4Foc)

[1] [https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web- apps/blazor/](https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Very interesting, I have not heard of this before. I will give it a try out. Thanks!</comment></comment>


Where did all the PHP programmers go? - <AUTHOR> http://mamchenkov.net/wordpress/2008/06/04/where-did-all-the-php-programmers-go/ <comment><USER2> A lot of people would disagree with me about this. Take that as you may.

To talk about the issue of an interviewee not being able to write out code with pencil and paper: Do you paint with crayons?

If you are an amazing digital artist in Photoshop, say Burt Monroy for example, then you should be able to paint with crayons right? If you work for Lucasfilms as a top-tier 3D artist who works in Maya, shouldn't you be able to chip Michelangelo out of stone then?

What most NON-CODERS, which I am assuming includes you, do not realize is that a programmer's brain is wired to work in a certain environment. We have learned for years how to code in particular ways, whether via a straight text editor(Textpad for me!) or an integrated IDE(Eclipse or Visual Studio for example).

So you take someone who's already stressing about making a good impression during an interview and then ask them to write down code on a piece of paper. That's the absolute worst thing you can do. You're asking the person to use a different part of their brain to tackle a problem that hasn't been trained for that job.

Put the person in front of a computer, such as a laptop in the interview room put there for specifically this purpose, and THEN give them a problem to solve.

If the person still can't pull code out of their ass at this point, then you're right. They're morons. Otherwise, you will be surprised at what some of these people can do that you've looked over.

<comment><USER3> _Do you paint with crayons?_

You need a better metaphor. I _cannot imagine_ a painter who, when handed a crayon and told to draw something, couldn't at least produce a simple sketch. I just can't think of a single example.

<comment><USER4> Maybe it's a bit like asking a cook to write down step-by-step, the recipe and directions for a meal they've never cooked before. Without access to their learned abilities to improvise with given ingredients, smelling/tasting the mixture, comparing notes with similar recipes they have, etc.

<comment><USER5> Nope. Another miss.

Good cooks can imagine flavors and guess at timing and ingredients for food they've never tasted (much less prepared) just as good painters can visualize a work in their head before ever putting brush to paper.

Programmers _should_ be able to work the same way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think it's that the term "programmer" is so loose in the PHP community that good programmers have gone away from PHP. I know that it makes looking for jobs intolerably annoying.

In interviews, you're talking about programming as people who know how to customize WordPress talk about how they can do whatever needs to be done in PHP. Heck, look at WordPress itself - it's a blog engine that takes 10x longer (or more) to render simple pages than it should. And that's the problem. A PHP programmer can simply be someone who knows how to make bad decisions and hack WordPress a little - and the salaries are often reflective of that.

So, while you may pay more, so many of us have just left. Yeah, there are bad design decisions (like having a million functions in the global namespace), but it isn't as big a deal as many make it out to be (since, as a web-only language, it's limited to web functions and they're usually quasi-namespaced as, for ex., mysql_*()).

The fact is that, because PHP programmers can be idiots who know how to guess and check, real programmers have left - the jobs available, money around, codebases to work with, coworkers to work with, etc. all reflect the fact that so many PHP programmers are really guess and check hack artists.

<comment><USER7> guess and check is a surprisingly good skill to learn and one that many people cannot master without years of doing it. employees with guess and check skills will help in fringe cases of development where one or more of the senior developers does not have any experience, instead of reading docs the tend to take a sledgehammer to the problem and can tend to bang a working version out very quickly in any given environment. guess and check hackers that are truly good will be the fastest to adapt to any changing situation in a faster paced development schedule and you might see them flounder in boredom in larger well outlined projects where they can't find problems to try and fix

this isn't to say that you, mdasen, doesn't find good guess and check hack artists, but just to put a positive spin on what otherwise looks like a negative comment to developers that don't have their language of choice memorized.

<comment><USER8> Let me provide a counterexample. Recently, I needed to do a rather complicated SQL query (via an ORM, so not as painful as it sounds). Anyway, I didn't know how to solve the problem, so I wrote a test case and tested various versions of the query. I had no idea what I was doing, really, and it took me a day to get the query to work. Then I realized that the test case was wrong (!) and I was back to square one. I read up on some more relational theory, thought about my problem a bit more, and then had the answer in an hour.

To make a long story short, writing code that you don't understand is a bad idea. It may appear to work, but it's probably broken and you just don't have the understanding to know why. If you don't understand code when you write it, what's the chance that you'll ever be able to maintain it?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If I were given a piece of paper and a pencil and expected to start writing out code, that, to me, aside from just being annoying, would raise serious questions about how well that employer was planning on treating me. If they can't even supply a cheap computer for me to write some code, what else won't they provide once I actually have to work there? Yikes.

<comment><USER10> While we had a lab full of computers in high school comp sci, we did all our main work on paper and on the chalk board, and all tests were on paper too. We had to learn to think things through in our heads. At the end of each year was a 3-month development window where we had to write a complete app (game, whatever) start to finish, so we did do some serious code for our age (this was 8-9 years ago now).

To this day, I bring a notebook everywhere and jot in pseudocode on the bus, in meetings, anywhere I can. I'm certainly able to think through problems better because of that. Programming is a written language, you don't need a computer to speak it, just to interpret it. And pseudocode is a great art to get good at. Highly recommended if you're looking to pick up a new language, just learn to program on paper and in your head instead.

So what they're likely looking at with the paper and pencil test is simply to see whether you can actually think in general, and not just debug your way through an assigned task.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I don't know if anyone else read the article who still actively "has" to develop in php.. but the problem he is asking them to solve with pencil+paper should be totally doable in a few minutes; even for someone fresh to the language as other than maybe the strcmp function you would need no real "library" knowledge.

I think it's clear that there are two kinds of "solid" php developers. The ones that have moved on to other languages/paradigms and love it (thus answering "where have they gone") and those who have moved on but still make their bread and butter in php but apply those new paradigms best as they can (cake php, fluent expressions, correct use of OO etc.). The problem with hiring the latter is they are most likely gainfully employed or more interested in doing their own thing.

Maybe you should try hiring people with aptitude and providing crash course training as well as further education incentives.

</comment><comment><USER12> PHP gets a lot of bad press (some deserved, some not) -- but you can't fault the language. When PHP was first released, it was a major advancement over PERL and SSI which prevailed at the time. With the growing adoption of PHP5 and the upcoming release of PHP6, PHP should be back on par (or at least close to) many of its 'high-class' peers.

The slow migration to PHP5 by web hosts has definitely been a major bottleneck for the language. It's too bad that the extreme popularity of many PHP4-based apps is what prevented hosts from upgrading, thus giving developers little incentive to upgrade.

The good news is that the popularity of Rails and MVC has inspired a broad selection of excellent MVC frameworks for PHP5 (ZendFramework, KohanaPHP) and with PHP6 on the way and new web hosting architectures on the rise, there may very well be a resurgence in PHP.

</comment><comment><USER13> Where have all the PHP guys gone?

Long time passing

Where have all the PHP guys gone?

Long time ago

Where have all the PHP guys gone?

Gone to Python and Ruby everyone

Oh when will they ever learn,

Oh when will they ever learn...

</comment><comment><USER14> Here is the answer: don't look for PHP programmers! Look for good software developer (Web experience will be a bonus), and this guy will easilly handle all these tasks and even more :)

<comment><USER3> Which brings up the obvious question underlying this whole article: Which kind of talented software developer is _easy_ to find in Cyprus?

Cyprus is only slightly more populous than Vermont, where I'm told it's also very difficult to find development talent, despite the fact that it's a lot closer to a startup hub.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> he's probably not paying enough.</comment>