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Joined: 05 Nov 2012
Posts: 4
Posted: Mon 05 Nov 2012, 16:42
Post subject:
ICPUG wrote:
Hi Vobbino,
666philb response to your query is, of course, correct but perhaps doesn't clarify things.
The Linux filesystem and the way Linux sees EVERYTHING including hardware as a point in the filesystem tree is different from the way other OS like Windows work. Consequently, it can be a little hard to adjust to in the beginning.
The simplest way to get at your hard drives is to use the icons at the bottom of the screen because these will automatically 'mount' the drive and open the file manager looking at the drive.
Having to mount the drive before you can see its contents is another feature of Linux. Consequently, even if you follow 666philb comments and try to seek the contents of your hard drive via the file manager you will not see the contents until the drive is mounted. The same thing applies if you want to save data from a program directly to the hard drive. The drive must be mounted first. This concept can really be tricky and upsets some people. However, it can be viewed as a security measure because mounting a device is an extra step any malware has to perform before it can deposit something on your computer without your knowledge. Also it is an extra step YOU have to perform before you can delete something you didn't mean to!
Thanks ICPUG now I got it, I also was asking myself why I've to mount a drive!
By playing I was able to see the option (right click) but I still was confused then I manually copied the entire content of a DVD to another drive tough that wasn't my final expectation.
Your answer will clarify some issues I am having in another my thread: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=81939
Thanks for help.
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Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Posted: Tue 06 Nov 2012, 16:10
Post subject:
I've follow your indication and I've installed Slacko 5.3.3.
I haven't the errors that I had on Precise Puppy.
But the problem with printer installing still persist.
I followed the indication on help, but I couldn't install foo2zjs package.
When I type "make" command, that message appear: ERROR: must install GNU dc with -e option. I've download dc, and I follow the install help provided with it (configure, make, and make install). But is of no use; the error still appear. I have an HP laserjet 1005.
dogbert0360 wrote:
Sorry that you had a bad experience using Puppy Linux. It seems to me that you installed "Precise Puppy 5.4" which is a new release from Puppy founder Barry K. I too, had the same thing happen and this could be a serious bug flaw. Barry in his blog post is working on a service pack which may address this issue and other bugs. Price one pays with any new release.
Please don't take this one bad experience with Puppy Linux as all are like this. I'm using Slacko 5.3.3 and from my use is very stable with plenty of software. Give it a try!
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 12476
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Posted: Tue 06 Nov 2012, 17:09
Post subject:
SorinMS wrote:
But the problem with printer installing still persist.
I followed the indication on help, but I couldn't install foo2zjs package.
When I type "make" command, that message appear: ERROR: must install GNU dc with -e option. I've download dc, and I follow the install help provided with it (configure, make, and make install). But is of no use; the error still appear. I have an HP laserjet 1005.
You don't need to make anything. There is a ready-made PET at the bottom of the page named foo2xxx_rcrsn-2012.05.05.pet.
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Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Posted: Tue 06 Nov 2012, 17:27
Post subject:
rcrsn51 wrote:
SorinMS wrote:
But the problem with printer installing still persist.
I followed the indication on help, but I couldn't install foo2zjs package.
When I type "make" command, that message appear: ERROR: must install GNU dc with -e option. I've download dc, and I follow the install help provided with it (configure, make, and make install). But is of no use; the error still appear. I have an HP laserjet 1005.
You don't need to make anything. There is a ready-made PET at the bottom of the page named foo2xxx_rcrsn-2012.05.05.pet.
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Joined: 02 Nov 2012
Posts: 6
Posted: Tue 06 Nov 2012, 17:28
Post subject:
Finally I succeed in make my printer run on Puppy.
Thanks to all of you that supports me on the Puppy's way.
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Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2
Posted: Wed 07 Nov 2012, 13:39
Post subject:
hello puppy comunity
Well this is my feedback!
I recently knew about puppy linux. I read about it at the puppy web page and downloaded it. First I get confused about the iso to download and it was all on Japanese haha. So I read again and successfuly download and installed to my pendrive the last stable version (in that moment was 5.3 because it was on october I think). My intensions are to try it on a pc desktop wich has only 256mb RAM.
But first I tried it on my pc and notebook (or laptop). I was amazed with the speed of running. So I got excited and tried to save my user profile files, but with no luck. My user profile file was created (on harddrive / pendrive) but nothing appears to be restored so, each boot had to start again. By the way, each time the programs icons or whatever icon on desktop, shows only a "!" with a triangle. All of this happened on the desktop with 256 ram too.
This problem shows only from the moment I try to use my user profile file.
I already tried different formats (mean sd2, 3 and 4).
All is restored back when I delete my user file and boot again.
I wasn't posting here to show you this problem but, well I did it anyway.
My reason here is to thank the developers and all the comunity and feedback the great job you are doing.
By the way, now I'm downloading the new precise 5.4 iso to see what happens with this and try it. I pretend to make a dual boot on a 256 ram desktop pc and make a frugal install. Hope to get it run!
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 12476
Location: Stratford, Ontario
Posted: Wed 07 Nov 2012, 13:50
Post subject: Re: hello puppy comunity
What is the name of the Puppy that you are using?
Diegogngui wrote:
which has only 256mb RAM.
That's really not enough memory to run the new Puppies. I would recommend that you start with an older, stable version, like
What tool did you use to set up your flash drive?
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Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 165
Posted: Wed 07 Nov 2012, 13:55
Post subject:
I am going to try to give you my feeling onto Puppy Linux without my personal tastes interfere..
Puppy is probably a more modern OS than he countered with his concept there " everything pocket it " using of the random access memory.
But, sorry: it is the jungle! As this forum also.
I tried at least fifteen puppies (look at my posts full of stupid questions without answers).
Fortunately that my key of 32 Go possesses two partitions, otherwise, I would have become crazy.
Of course, it is " the law of the kind(genre) ": everybody can make its puppy, but then one falls on some with many bug, or not adapted in needs.
Maybe it would be necessary to make one girl effort on the big list, in the description of puppies. or other idea..
Well, I hope to have hurt nobody.
I like Puppy !
edit : sorry Diegogngui
and rcrsn51 for my post before answer
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Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2
Posted: Wed 07 Nov 2012, 13:59
Post subject: Re: hello puppy comunity
rcrsn51 wrote:
What is the name of the Puppy that you are using?
Diegogngui wrote:
which has only 256mb RAM.
That's really not enough memory to run the new Puppies. I would recommend that you start with an older, stable version, like
What tool did you use to set up your flash drive?
Sorry, I edited my post. It was 5.3 (the previous of precise).
I don't remember because I tried ubuntu, xubuntu, lubuntu and puppy. I changed the tool. Now I'm making a multibook pendrive with YUMI 0.0.7.8.
I'll keep your advice and try that wary later. But first want to see what happens anyway.
Thanks for your answer!
Edit: Now, I successfuly could save and recover my user profile in my notebook with my pendrive using precise puppy ! I think that maybe there was something wrong with the partitions mounted or unmounted that I could solve a couple of weeks ago.
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Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Posts: 165
Posted: Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:44
Post subject:
More things..
It is also necessary to say that for me a Linux distribution is important from part the quality of its community. Linux suffered enough from the "R.T.F.M".
It is not any more time if we wish to make known quality products as Puppy Linux.
I know a lot of Linux distribution, very well and console don't afraid me , but I liked Ubuntu too for the community.
Today, without answer in a forum because it is too simple it is for me the immediate abandonment of the distribution, I admit it.
( Already some cases for me at Puppy, saddened).
Today, let us consider that Linux became consumer and that "stupid" questions will be put. If we do not accept it, stay in our place.
In brief, persons would be very satisfied to answer to those questions, let them do and everybody will win.
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Ido Wolf
Joined: 30 Dec 2012
Posts: 9
Posted: Sun 30 Dec 2012, 09:41
Post subject: Puppy saved our family's first laptop!
Just wanted to thank Barry Kauler and this entire community for a wonderful distribution of Linux.
Random details:
I'm a 19 year old, and the son of an electrical engineer who tends to use all sorts of technological products to fill his personal and professional needs.
Personally, I've been meaning to "migrate" from Windows to Linux for quite a few years now, but I've only found the time for it when I recently graduated from high-school and installed Ubuntu 12.10 on my PC. My dad and my brothers, however, are very "Linuxphobics". They never even wanted to try any sort of distribution (nevermind listening to my explanations about different distributions), and it's been impossible trying to show them the benefits of this wonderful system even when I had the beautiful Ubuntu at my disposal.
My needs from the OS:
So, long story short, we use our very first laptop (from Dell) which is probably nearly 10 years old now as a "media center" at the living room. It's mostly used as a "Facebook-oriented" internet browser for my mom, document/spreadsheet processor or email reader for my dad, and rarely to play some DivX files. It used to run on Windows XP, but it worked way too slowly to the point where it was unbearable.
Our experience with the OS so far:
So I finally convinced my dad to try a Linux distro when he realized that there's no harm in booting it as a Live CD. And so, I've downloaded and booted Puppy 5.4.3 Precise.
First, I just want to say that I've booted Live CDs before, but this was the absolute fastest, smoothest Live CD bootup I've ever seen. The desktop appeared after just a few minutes, and with very minimal configuration I could get the laptop to duplicate display to our HDTV, or to support both Hebrew and English as keyboard inputs.
And needless to say, we're all extremely satisfied with this OS. It has all the apps my mom and dad would ever need and then some; AbiWord, that spreadsheet processor, Gnome MPlayer, Paint, SeaMonkey etc...it's all there, works right from the get-go, and to be frank
Puppy performs faster on that 10-year-old laptop than Ubuntu performs on my 2 year old PC.
I was absolutely shocked when I first saw that.
And the funny thing about it is that the OS is so incredibly appealing. Everything you need is on the desktop. Everything you want is on the menu, and it even looks extremely appealing and cute with that puppy as the wallpaper image.
The only gripe I have so far is that Hebrew subtitles are messed up in Gnome MPlayer. I'll try to use SMPlayer as my MPlayer as a frontend and work around it as it's my frontend (and player) of choice in Ubuntu, but honestly, even if we can't figure that one out, it's barely an issue.
So to sum it all up, after playing around with the laptop for a few minutes, my dad told me that "it's like it came back to life". And I answered: "Funnily enough, one of Puppy's goals is to breathe new life into old PCs".
So yeah, that's my $0.02 about Puppy, thank you once again
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Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Posts: 4
Posted: Sun 20 Jan 2013, 07:56
Post subject:
Hi all,
Just installed my first linux distro ever. I selected Wary Puppy 5.4 and was surprised how easy it was to get up and going. The only problem i had was i got this "Out of Range" error on my monitor (ACER 27 inch LCD) after the second boot. Finally figured out how to run Xorg and got it going by deliberately selecting a smaller resolution.
I opted for the Live to USB install so my cpu remains unchanged. Im quiet impressed how fast it runs and how simple everything is compared to WinXP.
I've had a look over this forum and its pretty comprehensive and an astonishing number of members!
After a few weeks i'd like to dual boot my WinXp with probably Linux Mint 13 , so are there any tuts to show how to make a new partiton , once resizing the original partition and installing Mint 13 that you fellow know is aimed at a newbie?
I already located a few Mint13 Dual boot tuts!
Thanking the developers and the form.
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013
Posts: 20
Posted: Sun 10 Feb 2013, 02:44
Post subject: New to Linux
Puppy Impressions: Fascinated. Frustrated. Intrigued.
The destination computer started to die about a year ago. The hard drive started to crash and corrupted the files. I tried Ubuntu at the time. It did see that the hard drive was bad, but failed to connect to the wired LAN. I also have an old '98 desktop that I want to maintain as a printer host and file repository. So I went looking for another distro that would be best compatible with both.
The Puppy OS is fast and light. That is why I even considered Linux. It took a computer that was headed for the trash and breathed new life into it. It found the wired LAN right away. The wireless was a little more challenging, but it is up now. When breakthroughs happen, I consider making my primary computer into a dual boot. As a Windows user, I would love to see a correlation between Windows environment and Puppy equivalent.
There are silly questions like: What is a kernel? Frisbee? VirtualBox? How do I compile source code? how do partitions work and why does Puppy only see one? that will eventually get answered with time. Just wish it was a little more intuitive.
shows me how to load a PET file. I can go into Puppy Package Manager and 'see' that I have installed the game. But there is noting readily found to tell me how to do anything with that file...like...run it...or put a shortcut into the 'Fun' section.
A couple of Windows migrations that I would love to see. The 'Restore' process to undo any additions that I may regret. Task Manager to close a frozen process. It would save me from hard reboots. Top View Running Process is the closest that I could find, but doesn't fit the bill.
I wanted to at least post the Windows equivalent that I have found.
Console/Shell = Command Prompt
System > Hardinfo hardware information = System/Hardware
Setup > Puppy Package Manager = Remove Programs
Desktop > Pwallpaper background image chooser = Desktop background
Filesystem > ROX = File Manager
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 5056
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...
Posted: Sun 10 Feb 2013, 12:16
Post subject:
Open a terminal/console/shell window.
and press [ENTER].
When the procedure is done, your installed PET file should be in the Menu.
If not, feel free to start a new topic in this subforum (Beginner's Help) about it.
Reason is that there are files in /usr/share/applications that have a *.desktop extension. Puppy polls all of those, and generates a menu from them.
Hope that helps
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Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 237
Location: South Wales
Posted: Sun 10 Feb 2013, 12:23
Post subject:
Hello highway man,
If you make a copy of your save-file - and keep it somewhere safe- you can use it as a form of system restore. Plus, it's always good to keep a copy, just in case.
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SF ZEN CENTER, PIRATE CAT and ORGASMIC MEDITATION
For those of you who missed my interview on Pirate Cat Radio yesterday with DJ Scooter Stalin, an MP3 of it is up here (click for link). It'll only be there for like 2 weeks or something. So listen up while you can. It was a pretty good interview, I thought. It took a little while to settle into something. But once it did things got pretty deep. Surprisingly so.
I'm still in San Fran-sissy (oh, calm down!). I got a few more dates (not those kinds of dates, you sillies!) up here, which are:
TONIGHT March 20, 2009 (Fri), 6:30-9 pm - San Francisco Zen Center Dinner & Talk - 300 Page St. San Francisco, CA 94102 (the talk will be at about 7:30, but you can come eat dinner before)
•March 21, 2009 (Sat), 4 pm - Green Apple Books 506 Clement St. at 6th Ave. San Francisco, CA 94118 firstname.lastname@example.com
•March 22, 2009 (Sun), 1:30 pm Copperfield's Books 140 Kentucky Street Petaluma, CA email@example.com
I will also be on Channel 4, KRON's Sunday morning news/talk show on March 22nd with Henry the Gardener. I'm not sure what time I'll go on yet. But I'll make a note of it once I hear. Last time I did the show I was on at about 9 or 10, I think. The one I did previously is the show I referenced in Zen Wrapped in Karma that one of my Dharma Brothers said I looked like a weirdo on. Maybe I'll do better this time.
Last night a guy I know up here took me to this place called One Taste where they teach Orgasmic Meditation. You can read an article in the New York Times about them on line. I didn't really get enough information to draw any firm (heh-heh) conclusions. But I can tell you it ain't Zazen! That's for darn sure. I think I'd like to save my opinions on this for a later piece (heh-heh).
I'm a pretty liberal guy. But I was raised mainly in the backwoods of Northeast Ohio and certain things still make me blush.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
If the tickets you are looking for at Revival House are not available, please check back as our inventory is constantly updated. All tickets are issued as eTickets. You can print your tickets from your My TicketScene account page.
Ticketscene Inc
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Ticketscene offers a free end-to-end, online event ticketing and promotion platform for event promoters, venues, and festival organizers along with powerful analytics and insights.


text:
Nine non-profit organizations from across the state will receive 550 blankets Friday to distribute to people who are homeless in Delaware.
Nine non-profit organizations from across the state will receive 550 blankets Friday to distribute to people who are homeless in Delaware.
Blankets will be distributed to the nine organizations from 1 to 3 p.m. Friday from a warehouse on the Delaware Department of Health and Social Services' Herman Holloway Campus near New Castle. In turn, the organizations must distribute the blankets to people who are homeless within seven days. If you know someone who is in need of a blanket, contact one of the following organizations:
Rick VanStory Resource Center (RVRC), 801 West St., Wilmington; rickvanstorycenters.org
St. Patrick's Center, 107 E. 14th St, Wilmington; stpatrickscenter.org
Connection Community Support Program, Statewide; connectionscsp.org
People's Place 2, Smyrna and Dover; peoplesplace2.com
First State Community Action, Dover Corporate Center 655 S. Old Bay Road, Suite 4J Dover, DE; firststatecaa.org.
Sheppard's Place, 1362 S. Governors Ave., Dover
Salvation Army, Statewide; salvationarmydelaware.org
Newport Churches Community Action Program
Neighborhood House, Wilmington and Middletown; neighborhoodhse.org
This effort is being led by the Division of State Service Centers (DSSC), with funds provided by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) under the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP).


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Difference between revisions of "Beaufort (North Carolina)"
Revision as of 15:03, 18 February 2014
Beaufort [5] is the easternmost town in the Crystal Coast region of Carteret County, North Carolina; the county seat; and the third-oldest town in the state. Established in 1713 on the Newport River, Beaufort was named after Henry Somerset, the Duke of Beaufort. Beaufort's two main claims to fame are its intact historical homes and its connection with the dreaded pirate Blackbeard. The town's name is pronounced differently than that of its South Carolina namesake; this Beaufort is "BO-furt" (IPA ['bou.frt]).
Get in
As with practically every other town in the area, you'll reach Beaufort via US-70, which runs through the middle of the town before turning north toward Atlantic.
Get around
Visitors often come to Beaufort to stroll along the waterfront and browse in the town's unique shops; it's a relaxing way to spend an afternoon.
The very nature of Beaufort is sort of anti-giant-chain-hotel; instead, the town has several quaint bed-and-breakfasts and vacation rentals for visitors who are looking for a little something special to complete their stay.
If you want someplace less intimate but with a similar down-home feel, there are a couple of larger inns in town:
Get out
The Crystal Coast area has a variety of other areas to visit:
Further afield, there are some interesting destinations for daytrips:


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EMI & EMC Simulations, Measurements, and Precompliance Testing
Meeting electromagnetic interference (EMI) compliance regulations is a critical step in bringing products to market quickly. Wherever you are in the product development cycle, Keysight has an EMI measurement solution for you.
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Keysight offers design, simulation and test capability for all of your EMC/EMI design and test needs. After designing your device, you can utilize Keysight test equipment to verify your designs. Keysight products include X-Series signal analyzers, PXE and MXE EMI receiver, Network Analyzers, Signal Sources, Oscilloscopes and more, all for your test requirements.
EMI/EMC simulations
Early in the development cycle, Keysight EMPro software allows engineers to simulate the radiated emissions of electronic circuits and components and then determine whether these emissions are within levels specified by common electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) standards, such as FCC Part 15, CISPR 22 and MIL-STD-461F and ensure that their designs are compliant, even before hardware is developed.
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Barche in vendita in Stati Uniti Massachusetts
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i am obama...Posted by autumn... at 9:31 AM
J.Kwest - I Am (Obama) from Endangered Peace on Vimeo.
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Monday, January 15, 2007
BGs and Style - part 3 - Contrasts in Direction, Size
Now, having said that I need to add that if you don't already have skills, then you won't understand contrasts and won't be able to use them with control. So learn your construction and other basic principles before you concern yourselves with this advanced concept.
A conservative person fears contrasts. Contrasts draw attention to themselves. This Donald on the left has contrasts in sizes, widths and shapes. A small head, long beak, fat belly, skinny chest, feet that are longer than they are wide.
The Donald on the right has a beak that is the same length as its width, a head that is the same width as the beak, feet that are the same width as length, a chest the same size as his belly.
Donald has been toned down and evened out. The Disney style is the direct result of Walt's extremely conservative taste.
Tom and Jerry are also extremely conservative. Hanna Barbera TV cartoons after the first year became very conservative to match the nature of the studio's owners.
This Disney pig is made up of the same shapes and sizes piled on top of each other. To me it is completely bland and boring. But I'm not conservative. I like excitement and ideas and bold statements of creative conviction.This Tex Avery model sheet is much more interesting and FUN to me. The tiny heads of the characters nd huge fat bodies are extreme contrasts. You laugh at the boldness and audacity of the idea. Tex's statements are always completely clear. He is not afraid of contrasts. They are his tools of communication.
Bob Clampett is even more comfortable with contrasts and that's a reason I like him so much. He uses contrasts not only in his drawings, but in his acting, voices, cutting, music, staging, personalities and everything else he touches. He even lets his animators all draw in their own styles and casts them according to what scenes he thinks they will be most effective at animating.
Now, you can be conservative with skill and appeal, as these Disney designs above are. Skill and cuteness can go a long way in entertaining a non skilled person. Skill in itself is a contrast. If everybody had it, it wouldn't stand out.
That's why today, in an age where skill is almost absent from culture, Tom and Jerry looks so radical and wild. It looks like superhumans did it, and by the standards of today's entertainers the Tom and Jerry creators were superhuman. They could do what only a handful of people could do then and nobody can do now.
Today's art and culture has such low skill standards that almost anyone can become famous in arts and entertainment. Could 50 Cent make it in an era that produced Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Hank Williams, Count Basie and scores of towering entertainers?
If you add contrasts and personality to skill, you get art, not just mere craft.
Tom and Jerry and Disney are craft. Clampett, Jones, Avery and the Fleischers were art.
A truly creative skilled person is not afraid of contrasts or clear statements. All the musicians I mentioned above fit that description. There were some musicians in that era who were skilled but lacked personality, dynamics (contrasts) and were not as interesting as the non-conservative ones.
Here is a conservative skilled drawing of a girl.
Here is an imaginative creative drawing. What's the difference? Katie's girls are full of contrasts. The contrasts give the girls their unique differences that make them individuals, rather than generic symbols.
Conservative art without skill is the norm today. It is the evilest combination and will destroy what was once a great civilization if it continues.
Conservative art with skill is useful as a learning tool. It is not thrilling or uplifting to the human spirit, but it beats the Hell out of amatuerism.
Creativity without skill cannot exist-or it cannot be used effectively. Contrasts won't help unskilled work.
Contrasts added to skill equal interest, dynamics, statements and art and magic.
OK, get what contrast is?
There are many types of contrasts, not just the obvious ones of size and shape.
Here are some to start you thinking:
59 comments:
- Peggy said...
So what's contrast without skill? I suppose that'd be all the examples of modern cartoons that're full of "style" and not much else...
- JohnK said...
Todays' cartoons are both bland and unskilled. No contrasts.
Very well put! Things I have tried to understand for years are so easily explained in this blog. Great connection between music and animation too. Nothing is creative anymore... Excecutives find a niche that makes money and they run with it until the idea is completely ehausted and we all become zombies, listening or watching the same thing over and over. I find very few things these days that are not carbon copies of previous finacial bread winners.
- JohnK said...
Hey Smo,
I accidentally erased your post.
If you send it, I will post it.
Sure, those poses of the clampett dog are great drawings (full of contrasts, strong posing, exaggeration, etc), but the dog itself as a design is pretty boring. Nothing dramatic in the proportions or shapes. It's practically Disney's pluto.
I hate to say it, but it's the same with the majority Spumco designs. Fantastic acting and posing...but as a design...pretty bland in proportion and design. Great cartoons should be a mix of both strong design and great posing.
We all know Disney's stuff is boring, but some great stuff did come out of there....paticularly Ward Kimball's work. Toot Whistle Plunk Boom, and Mars "Above and Beyond are a great fusion of strong design and funny animation.
- JohnK said...
Angles do not make a design.
- Mcnuggetinator said...
Ah, this is what I've been trying to achieve in my art work, lately. Does contrast also come from mixing up the lines (Straight lines, rigid lines) and curves (s-curves, rounded curves) of the drawing as well, or am I just typing jibberish.
"Could 50 Cent make it in an era that produced Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Hank Williams, Count Basie and scores of towering entertainers?"
lmao. So true.
Excellent points in style. Just yesterday, I had a similar talk with one of the few peers in my grad program that exhibits serious artistic talent. As I've mentioned before, my school's trade is in 3D, but regardless, he and I are one of the few who appreciate what you do, John.
But enough preface, we basically pointed out that 3D animated movies today lack any stylization. In 2D, Chuck Jones could redraw a face a million times till he was happy. 3D animator's don't get that luxury, so very few films can get stylized characters, much less stylized layouts. If I went off of what you said, you could say that most of the time, the 3D style is "conservatively" skilled, because the character's proportions will always be "correct", but without any serious foresight, you're stuck with very conservative imagery. Madagascar tries to be stylish (by merely throwing in angular looking character construction--I wasn't a fan), but the characters are still as stiff as every other 3D flick.
I've thumbed through some preproduction work for The Incredibles", and the film pales in comparison, but it got closer than most do today. There's definately skilled artists working on these films, but too much is still lost in translation.
- Cayen said...
I don't really agree with SugarPete.
However everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. I really can't stand modern cartoons. There's something, I dunno, soulless about them.
John for the love of all the future kids PLEASE take back the industry.
I can't name one single cartoon that actually makes me want to watch it.
- JohnK said...
>>Does contrast also come from mixing up the lines (Straight lines, rigid lines) and curves (s-curves, rounded curves) of the drawing as well<<
Yes, but not randomly. Learn construction first. The rest may follow.
Well, Sugarpete, you can't say Ren and Stimpy are bland or generic designs. They are very different to any other cartoon characters, and especially Stimpy's big nose is something I always found odd and fun to look at.
Interesting post. Of course I think everything is art, I mean, a skilled drawing is also art in my opinion, maybe not as exciting as THE OTHER art, but still. Anyway I kind of agree with John. Can't understand how do you find Tom and Jerry boring to look at, though. Yeah, I guess some of the later shorts are generic. But The Zoot Cat, Quiet Please, Solid Serenade, Flirty Birdy? Those have as much as energy as Tex Avery! I don't know, in those cartoons I really don't notice they are generic...in fact, there are some off model poses and lots of fun.
Now that we talk about proportion I have always have this doubt. Some of the early Ren and Stimpy cartoons, especially Big House Blues had some problems with proportions. In the very last scene I remember Ren seemed awkwardly tiny...I always thought it was intentional, as if you were looking for a radical, underground, crazy look, but now I can see it was probably a mistake, cause you seem to be interested in good construction and proportion.
Personally I didn't mind those problems with size too much. I prefer problems in size to generic looking poses. In fact there were sometimes some problems with size in classic cartoons, but the character posing was great. In modern cartoons they normally have the relative size of the characters perfect to each other, but the poses are very boring.
The reason why I bringing all this is that I guess I have problems with sizes too. I can do a tiny character like Jerry for example, especially if I don't draw him solo. When I start adding all the elements it somehow gets bigger. I don't mind too much cause , in my mind, it's more important that the character looks great, but average people would find weird that I drew such a giant mouse, you know. Is there some way I could fix that?
I'm a fan of Ward Kimball, but I have never understood the fascination people have with Toot Whistle Plunk Boom. It's an expertly crafted piece of work and I appreciate it's place in animation's history, but I don't think it has the same appeal to most people that a lot of the work that John holds up here as the good examples.
Like everyone else, I learn something new with every post here. I love the whole distinction that was made in this post between art and craft. Most people don't even acknowledge that the two are completely different.
- JohnK said...
I think I will do a post about Toot Whistle Plunk and Boom vs humanity.
I agree, today there is very low skill in our culture. Thanks, John K. for saying that! I've been a commercial artist for over 25 years – worked at many jobs and companies. I know how good I'm not but have done O.K. Most of the kids today have no skill. (I'm talking about drawing) I think today it's too easy to want to become an artist. Oh, mommy and daddy will put me through art school. No one's ever told a lot of the kids I've worked with that they don't have much talent. I've gotten a lot of looks when I look at crap and tell them what I really think. But hey, they're supposed to be professionals – they're getting paid. The art schools certainly won't tell the truth – they want the tuition. Maybe it looks like superhumans did the old cartoons because they were the ones that were supposed to become artists, not anyone that thinks they have talent.
Then there's today's music…
Thanks John K. lovin your blog!
- Jorge Garrido said...
I'm going to proceed cautiously with this lesson. I don't wanna get ahead of myself.
John, this is off-topic, but did Ed draw these early Yogi concepts?
>I hate to say it, but it's the same with the majority Spumco designs. Fantastic acting and posing...but as a design...pretty bland in proportion and design. Great cartoons should be a mix of both strong design and great posing.
You think Spumco uses bland designs? There are tons of contrasts and appealing forms:
Size contrast with Ren & Stimpy: Stimpy is big, Ren is small.
Ren has a large head, and, when needed, large hands and feet that contrast his tiny body. Big heads and big eyes make him have appeal because he looks like a cute baby.
Ren's eyes are completely organic, sometimes set close together overlapping, sometimes apart. Now within those eyes there are contrasts, too. Sometimes they come to a point, but never in a symmetrical way. They're different on top and on the bottom and the change is never rihgt in the middle. His pupils and irises are never the same shape but are still related to the size and shape of the large form they are in, (the eyeball) and can also be changed as needed.
His lips hang down limply into an angle which contrast the round forms of his head and ears.
Ren's proportions are closer to that of a baby, while Stimpy's are of a human head crossed with a frankfurter. While Ren's eyes are farther down and he has a higher forehead, Stimpy's are higher up and smaller, more like an adult. Stimpy's eyes also change shape as needed, but not as much as Ren's. His mouth is basically his entire body so there is always room to put angles, epecially in his jowls, like Yogi Bear. Stimpy's eyes are never the same shape.
Stimpy's entire form is full of fat rounded shapes, but there is also stylization in his hands, with their lack of palms and angles inside the fingers. Angles on his cat ears (obviously)and wehre his brows meet on the top of his head, which contrast his overall rounded cartoony facial features. The hairs on Stimpy's head are all different lenth but they increase in length at a natural rate. They're not equally or mathemtically longer than the preceding hair. Those ball lip things under his nose always point in opposing directions.
There are also tons of variable in their designs because John hates it when people adhere religiously to model sheets. Skilled variety=appeal.
Sometimes Ren's face is very realisitic, like a human's. Sometime he looks like a bug, with those soft lips and eyes that point in opposite directions in a dead stare.
Sometimes Ren has age spots. Sometimes his hair looks like pubes, sometimes it looks like a buzz cut.
Sometimes Ren has a tail! Sometimes he has a man body and more contruction in his chest and "reeb"cage.
Sometimes Stimpy has holes in his nose, which I actually dislike.
Plus, Stimpy's entire design is inherently appealing, way more so than Ren. It was easy for Games to make Ren ugly, they had a tougher time doing that to Stimpy so they had to make him really flat, yet those Games episodes were still better than anything being produced at the time, in part to the appealing character designs that were latent in the Games artist's drawings. If you don't belive me go watch "My Shiny Friend" the best pure Games episode.
Yeah, I've been watching alot of Ren & Stimpy lately. What of it?
Besides, sugarpete, this post was about BGs.
In my previous post, last paragraph I should have said "I CAN'T do a tiny character like Jerry"...silly post, but I wanted to make it clear if somebody really cares about my extra-long commentaries XD. I'd try to be make them shorter in the future.
I have to agree with you regarding the 1950s Tom and Jerry's, especially near the end of their run, but there's definetly nothing conservative or generic happening when Irv Spence animates those characters.
Hey John,
I recently posted saying that a comment you made on contrasts was sort of an epiphany for me, but I definitely overspoke, because these recent posts on the topic have been infinitely more helpful. Looking at the model sheets you posted a couple days ago, I could clearly see that the Disney and Blair sheets had the best construction and most appealing figures, but now I see that the appeal was largely due to the conservative designs (which, as you point out, isn't necessarily bad!). And before, I had almost no idea what made a design conservative in and of itself, but when you pointed out the incredible consistency within the later Donald Duck, it suddenly made perfect sense. Thank you thank you thank you.
p.s. I started drawing some real-life girls (from photos) today to start to try to better understand human construction and variability. If you or anybody else would check it out and offer any advice, I'd appreciate it.
- JohnK said...
Irv Spence is much blander in the Tom and Jerrys than he is in Tex Avery's cartoons.
He is severely handicapped by the design and the generic material.
As a cartoonist, you would enjoy
wow.. thanks again john k for a great lesson.
- Pat Lewis said...
That Disney pig may be bland and boring, but at least they drew him with a buttcrack! Another mind-blowing post as always. Thanks, John!
Who said angles make a design? I just said Ward Kimballs stuff was great. There are lots of straights vs curves in there.
Jorge Garrido....sure Ren and Stimpy's silouettes are different, but if you place them next to each other, they are practically the same size. When you have two main characters starring in a show, you make sure they are contrasted as much as possible. Stimpy could have been much bigger. Similar to Junior Bear and his Dad....or George Liquor and Jimmy.
My other point was that they are fairly boring in their design. Nothing unique that wasn't done already with their WB ancestors. John took the cartoons of his heroes and recreated them with his own sense of humor. That was what was unique about the show.
Nothing groundbreaking visually, he just reminded us of how great Chuck and Bob Clampetts cartoons were during an era of super horrible 80s cartoons.
- JohnK said...
>>My other point was that they are fairly boring in their design. Nothing unique that wasn't done already with their WB ancestors.<<
This is so crazy I can hardly believe it.
Ren and Stimpy are completely different designs and even made of different construction theories.
There were Disney animators who couldn't draw them because they were so different than what had been done before.
George Liquor is a whole pile of new design theories too.
If you can draw Tom, you can then easily draw Jerry and every other character in the series. With many of my characters you have to learn each one from scratch, because they don't follow a formula.
Ask the artists who struggle trying to draw them.
>>Today's art and culture has such low skill standards that almost anyone can become famous in arts and entertainment. Could 50 Cent make it in an era that produced Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Hank Williams, Count Basie and scores of towering entertainers?
I totally agree, I'm pretty sure everyone who loves arts does. The problem today is that greed blocks progress, the industry sees growth in financial terms.
Art becomes detached from the art industry: If a bad product keeps making money, and the public accepts it, why make a good product?
- JohnK said...
>>The problem today is that greed blocks progress, the industry sees growth in financial terms. <<
Quite the opposite is the problem. I keep saying this: We need more greed, not less.
If corporations let creative people be creative there would be a lot more money to be made.
Ren and Stimpy made a billion dollars and put Nickelodeon on the map and built their studio for them.
- Shawn said...
Sometimes conservative drawings are necessary, depending on the story. If Alice went to Wonderland looking like a Katie Rice character, then she would look as wacky as the Wonderland characters. Then there would be no contrast.
These last few posts are great! Drawing keeps getting more and more exciting with all this information. So much knowledge to be had! Between drawing model sheets I keep playing with Eddie's head shape. Eddie is fun!!!
That would be cool.
Oh ya-
Katie is so talented! Inspirational for us girls.
Haha- 50 Cent versus Hank Williams. Ha!
What about James Cagney versus Tom Cruise? They're both short, but there's quite a big difference in talent.
- JohnK said...
>>Sometimes conservative drawings are necessary, depending on the story. If Alice went to Wonderland looking like a Katie Rice character, then she would look as wacky as the Wonderland characters.<<
Alice could be specific without being wacky as Judy Garland is in The Wizard Of Oz.
The "wacky" stuff in Alice is not very wacky anyway. It's generic wacky.
- Adam B said...
Im working at a studio were we have to do twinning on purpose.Each side of a character is a mirror image or the other side.
Bland and unskilled.....egads'
Hey John,
another xcellent post. I think I will need a long time to achieve every aspect of your theory, won't stop learning from you guys!
See you next time!
Man, I loved Tex Avery's cartoons.
On the subject of style and craft in 3d that someone brought up earlier with the Incredibles, one of the things thats always been messed up about 3d animation is that its near impossible to do a stylized character without them looking...well....frightening.
With 2d, you allow the audience's brain to realize that things have depth, even though technically, its still a flat drawing on paper/cel/canvas/banana.
With 3d, depth is an actual physical element. And when characters in 2d that have great 2d design are brought in 3d, it often looks hideous. Bob Parr was 3d, and stylized just enough to look human, yet cartoony. Had they made his style any more extreme, he'd have been a deranged monstrosity to look at.
Take for example the Ren and Stimpy toys that used to be everywhere. Ren is one of those characters who looks bad in 3d. The toys barely looked like the chap.
Same goes with toys made of other characters with good 2d design. Every time someone makes a toy of...oh for example...Dexter's Lab, it looks so fucked up and incorrect. Heck, take an old Yogi or Fred Flinstone toy and compare it to the drawings.
And thats one of the problems with 3d. You can only make something nicely stylized to a point until it ends up not even looking like what its supposed to represent.
Like Stimpy. In all honesty, he looks nothing like a real cat. But he's a cartoon, he's not constrained by the physical limitations of our world. But we see him as a cat. And know he's a cat. Styalized by John's gnarly drawing skills, anyone can tell he's a cat. Even if they'd never seen him before. You can show it to someone who's never seen a cartoon and they'd say "thats a funny drawing of a cat."
But lets think if someone had never ever seen Stimpy, and then saw him in 3d animation.
They'd have no idea what he'd be! He's just not a character for 3d. He looks awesome as 2d, and 2d he should stay.
But with 3d, you stylize, and it looks, well, like disturbing mutants.
I think the most stylized 3d characters (without looking like horrid blobs) would be the people in Baginski's "Fallen Art"
And thats probably the limit on how far one can stylize 3d before it starts to look icky and ugly and wrong to the eyes.
Thats whats always been great about 2d animation. Anything literally can happen, and your mind can accept it fine and smile at the joy it brings.
There are posters who seem to be confusing modern music with the shit we hear on the radio and see on x-factor. There are exceptional musicians and artists scraping a living, you just have to find them rather than relying on what you're fed. That's how most of us probably found this blog, by following our interests and seeking an alternative voice to the common crud.
Of course this is not ideal. The greats should be getting the air time, and they would be if people weren't so lazy with their interests and actually put some effort into seeking quality for themselves, outside the cave. Likewise I suppose with all art forms. Though perhaps in animation the quality is currently even harder to find.
The problem is shit floats. If we stopped ranting about 50 cent he'd get a little less publicity. Magazines waste too much space advertising mediocrity. Why do I know who Paris Hilton is? Not because I've ever seen her "work", but because I've seen her papparazi mug shots everywhere and heard too many people ranting about how she shouldn't be famous. The debate and the slander is what made her. We could instead be talking about those few who deserve it and who are still alive and working.
Like Mr K.
sugarpete: You are beyond reasoning, which is a real pickle seeing as how you can't SEE for yourself that you're argument is already wrong. Left-brained analysis aside, any artistically inclined personality can just percieve that R&S were clearly a tour de force in animation.
toonamir: You have a valid point. As long as the money rolls in, the execs don't give a rat's ass about the quality of the cartoon. They might the be kind of folks who, ahem, think R&S has been done a million times before. But the general public isn't that impaired. The paradox lies in that fact that good "money making" animation requires higher costs (if I'm not mistaken), so it's not even green-lighted. Higher risk, but higher return. Disney almost went bankrupt because of this philosophy. He never wanted to compromise his product, so he did at times have to cut a few subtle corners, but the demand for his work eventually grew and paid off.
Oh, and btw John. Here's just one of several blogs belonging to a really talented Pixar artist. It illustrates what I was trying to say about what's lost in translation.
in response to the scmhuck who called Ren & Stimpy's designs bland:
I dare you or anyone* to find any other character before or since with Stimpy's fat-neckless-sausage-bean shaped body that doesn't look like an egg on stilts.
I'm also going to eliminate some neckless characters that might be confused for the same design. There's the Tasmanian Devil character which doesn't count because he has shoulders and technically a very stubby neck. His jaw just happens to go down to his abdomen. The other are those UPA-style big-nose-profile characters from pink Panther and such. It's arguably that some of them were neckless, but they usually had stiff egg-like bodes that looked like they were on stilts.
*This includes you john because you probably have the widest knowledge of other designs AND you know your own influences.
great post. thanks. i have a wierd comic online at www.dogboyfilms.co.uk/jonescomix
have a little peep-
Alice as a Katie Rice character just blew my mind.
Too much whackiness does have its drawbacks. I thought the characters in the "Tenacious D" cartoon moved like blobs of mercury on amphetamines: giving me sensory overload, and not letting me savour them, unlike the characters in "Coal Black," or Fleisher surrealism.
The British artist John Searle did these fantastic, horrifying political caricatures, but he shot his wad too early. Once you've made the Second Minister for Whatever look ten times worse than Chthulu, you're at a loss when drawing a truly monstrous subject.
It all devolves into goggly eyeballs and hypodermics for teeth: not really shocking anymore.
Hey John,
Mr. Tom Smo pointed out to me a few posts back that you're planning on starting a new company. It just put together a portfolio to apply to ConceptArt.org Atelier, so it's up if you're into taking a look:
I haven't studied your lessons yet but I'd be grateful for a baseline critique if you're willing. My email is listed on the page. Big images too, so mind the load times.
Thanks again sir!
Gotta say, though, before I sound like a raving conservative, that the "Stimpy's Pregnancy" cartoon, at least what I saw of it on this site, was a masterpiece.
Shocking, sure, but I've never seen such psychological depth in cartoon characters. You push the envelope, and it doesn't always work for me, but that's part of the price of being ahead of the pack.
Hey John, no worries!
I can't remember what I said specifically, but I'm pretty sure it was along the lines of: thanks for all these great "learning" posts. they've really been a great foothold, and my friends and i have run with them for studying timing and design and things of that nature.
when i get my new apartment next month i'm going to get a bunch of the NYC animator crew together a couple times a week to draw and animate from old model sheets and cartoons and things like that, to re-learn what working in tv is making us all forget!
thanks for the inspiration!!!
I am really digging these posts! It's almost too much to absorb at once. But I am filing them away, for when my skill improves enough to apply them properly.
As a side note, I found this link that might be helpful if you decide to turn all of this knowledge from your Blog into a Book
- akira said...
A simailarly aged Frank Sinatra would kick 50 cent's ass, with our without weapons. Add the rest of the Rat Pack to the brawl and they'd easily take out eminem and all of those guys. Also, Ella could kick the shit out of Beyonce. I'm not sure about Hank Williams though, but maybe after he got his ass kicked he'd become an even better songwriter/ performer.
- akira said...
to jack ruttan:
you really should see the whole "Stimpy's Pregnant" cartoon! and in glorious DVD quality! buy rent or steal the Ren and Stimpy Lost episodes DVD. I think "Stimpy's Pregnant" is the best R&S ever, but Altruists and Naked Beach Frenzy are really high up there, too... and even the lesser of the lost episodes contain some of the best scenes ever animated(like Stimpy smoking in firedogs 2). anyways, it's definitely worth the price of admission!
- The Butcher said...
Does 50 cent even count? He's no more a musician than I am a space cop.
This is a brilliant post. Thank you!!
- I don't really care said...
Forgetting for the moment that there was no context in which he could have existed, 50 cent could've made it in the 1940's for the same reason Barney the purple dinosaur could have made it. They both do the same thing. I'm not trying to dis 50. I'm being serious. They both show people how to behave. Neither of them are virtuosi, they are educational television.
50 makes party music for thugs. That takes care of about 10% of his audience, who are enough like him already that nothing needs to be explained to them about why they like it. The other 90% are trying to learn something about how to sound, behave, or project themselves.
Instead of asking if 50 cent is valid, we should instead be asking why it is so hard for modern virtuosi to get the attention they are due, or to exist in the first place.
"Instead of asking if 50 cent is valid, we should instead be asking why it is so hard for modern virtuosi to get the attention they are due, or to exist in the first place."
Good point, I think that the talent and skill is out there... It just doesnt sell. 50 cent, Barney and the Teletubbies sell. Marketing executives only care about one thing... Getting rich. Not art.
Mouldey is correct-and-a-half about today's music scene.
Pandora is a good tool for finding those fabled "good musicians". They are out there, you just have to look.
They need to release a Tex Avery box set if they haven't already ( not to mention all of the ripping friends episodes) on DVD, Instead of shelling out mind numbing garbage all over the TV screen.
- Luca Tieri said...
So true John!
But, it's so hard make understand cartoons'way is more funny to the bosses industries? Damn the differences are so clear! Good and beauty things bring money too!
What monotone vision have they.
Poor us and poor new generation!
- wizardjenkins said...
You talk about many of these designs as being bland, but what about the tone and subject matter of the film? You held up some drawings of Annie from The Iron Giant as an example, but the Iron Giant is a fairly serious film that takes place in "real-world" 1957. I'm curious as to how you think she ought to have been designed and animated to make her more appealing, yet still be believable in a serious drama. The kinds of character design and animation you do is fine for the tone of the films *you* choose. I especially enjoy how you time your animation, because it's so good. Almost no cartoons seem to pay any attention to timing anymore. Yet, the characters that you draw seem to emotionally fall into one of two camps: psychotic, or retarded. It seems like they're usually in the extreme throes of stupidity, lust, or neruosis. The female characters often look so brainless. I'd like to see you tackle characters and subject matter that is outside your ususal realm. Is something so serious/important that it can't/shouldn't be made "wacky"-- for lack of a more descriptive word?
- wizardjenkins said...
You talk about many of these designs as being bland, but what about the tone and subject matter of the film? You held up some drawings of Annie from The Iron Giant as an example, but the Iron Giant is a fairly serious film that takes place in "real-world" 1957. I'm curious as to how you think she ought to have been designed and animated to make her more appealing, yet still be believable in a serious drama. The kinds of character design and animation you do is fine for the tone of the films *you* choose. I especially enjoy how you time your animation, because it's so good. Almost no cartoons seem to pay any attention to timing anymore. Yet, the characters that you draw seem to emotionally fall into one of two camps: psychotic, or retarded. It seems like they're usually in the extreme throes of stupidity, lust, or neruosis. The female characters often look so brainless. I'd like to see you tackle characters and subject matter that is outside your ususal realm. Is something so serious/important that it can't/shouldn't be made "wacky"-- for lack of a more descriptive word?
- wizardjenkins said...
You talk about many of these designs as being bland, but what about the tone and subject matter of the film? You held up some drawings of Annie from The Iron Giant as an example, but the Iron Giant is a fairly serious film that takes place in "real-world" 1957. I'm curious as to how you think she ought to have been designed and animated to make her more appealing, yet still be believable in a serious drama. The kinds of character design and animation you do is fine for the tone of the films *you* choose. I especially enjoy how you time your animation, because it's so good. Almost no cartoons seem to pay any attention to timing anymore. Yet, the characters that you draw seem to emotionally fall into one of two camps: psychotic, or retarded. It seems like they're usually in the extreme throes of stupidity, lust, or neruosis. The female characters often look so brainless. I'd like to see you tackle characters and subject matter that is outside your ususal realm. Is some subject matter so serious/important that it can't/shouldn't be made "wacky"-- for lack of a more descriptive word?
So basically, contrasts are a tool for use by those who have mastered other more foundation skills of drawing. Contrasts help to add interest, make both complimentary and contrasting images stand out against one another, and if done in the right hands it can unify an entire work. Without a contrast, black wouldn't never seem so dark, and white could never be as bright. Contrast help to bring out the best. Sooo, how am I doing so far?
Check out Bill Nolan's animation in Lantz' OSWALD series - such cartoons as THE FOWL BALL (1930) - for some wonderfully wild cartoony contrasts, in the simple yet surreal black and white universe of the early sound era.
- Luca Tieri said...
>>The "wacky" stuff in Alice is not very wacky anyway. It's generic wacky.<<
Totally agree. Plus, original Mary Blair stuff was mooore wacky. It's a pity they missed it.


text:
Judge Joe Brown to face incumbent in DA race
MEMPHIS, Tenn. (AP) — Former TV judge Joe Brown could become the top prosecutor in Tennessee's largest county if the voters elect him over the incumbent in August.
Brown, a Democrat, and incumbent Amy Weirich, a Republican, ran unopposed in primary elections on Tuesday.
The 66-year-old Brown was a criminal court judge in Memphis before stepping down to dedicate himself to the TV show. The show is no longer on the air.
He was arrested and briefly jailed in March after a Shelby County Juvenile Court magistrate found him in contempt of court during a contentious hearing. He is appealing the charges.
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Wildcats compete in 7-on-7 competition
Summer is supposed to be a time for sports like baseball, softball and golf.
Yet, the Taft High football team got a head start on their upcoming season last Wednesday evening when they competed in a 7-on-7 competition at Liberty High School in Bakersfield.
"We had quite of few first time varsity players on Wednesday and it showed a bit," said Taft coach Jarudd Prosser. "Walking away from it I feel it was valuable experience and we will continue to improve."
During the competition, the Wildcats went up against Shafter, Stockdale and Ridgeview.
According to Prosser, each game lasted about 30 minutes.
The team gets three opportunities to make 20 yards and four to make the next 20 yards. Overall, 21 Taft players traveled to Bakersfield for the competition.
Taft will have another chance to work on their game again when they travel back to Liberty Wednesday evening. The competition begins at 6 p.m.


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